From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Fri Jan  1 05:50:46 2016
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 16 05:50:46 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY]  HAPPY NEW YEAR
Message-ID: <20160101055046.14565.qmail@f4mail-235-96.rediffmail.com>



To all,

             WISH YOU ALL A VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR.--2016.





                                                          ALAKENDU DAS.



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From dchakra at hotmail.de  Fri Jan  1 06:03:39 2016
From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 16 06:03:39 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Happy New Year 2016!
Message-ID: <BM1PR01MB02904EF1E278F47E04A93A6CD9FF0@BM1PR01MB0290.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>


Dear Members,

I wish you all a very happy New Year 2016!

Regards

Debabrata Chakrabarti


[cid:f7845596-e84f-4872-8ef3-34b854c5f233]






???This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.??? ??? Anandamayi Ma

???Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.??? - Paracelsus








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From nmisra at gmail.com  Sat Jan  2 01:19:44 2016
From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra)
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 16 06:49:44 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_First_two_volumes_of_=E2=80=98Tulsidas:_The_Epic_of_Ram=E2=80=99_(MCLI)_by_Philip_Lutgendorf?=
Message-ID: <CAATk=rDjP-m-7OZTuAJF-kMxGNE+5FO2DVFRTMGZ4B9HKzZD2g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members

I recently came to know from Patrick Finn (author of ?Quilts of India:
Timeless Textiles?) that the first two volumes of *Tulsidas: The Epic of
Ram*, the seven-volume English translation of Gosv?m? Tulas?d?sa's
R?macaritam?nasa by Prof. Philip Lutgendorf (University of Iowa), have been
published in December and are now available for purchase.

The two volumes, part of the Murty Classical Library of India (MCLI), cover
the complete B?lak???a of the epic. The first volume covers stanzas 1?175
and the second covers stanzas 176?361. The bibliographic details along with
table of contents of the two volumes are available from the HUP website
under the following links (from where they can be purchased too)
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674425019
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674088610

In India, both hardcover and paperback editions are available for
pre-ordering on Amazon. The books will be released on Amazon India in
around three weeks time, and will be available in leading bookstores and
airports across the country.
http://www.amazon.in/dp/0674495241
http://www.amazon.in/dp/0674495268

These volumes are part of the newest English translation of the
R?macaritam?nasa, published nearly 135 years after Frederic Salmon Growse
gave us the first English translation around 1880 CE.

Regards,
-- 
Nity?nanda Mi?ra


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From rekharanitj at gmail.com  Sat Jan  2 13:26:10 2016
From: rekharanitj at gmail.com (Rekha Rani)
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 16 18:56:10 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Happy New Year 2016!
In-Reply-To: <BM1PR01MB02904EF1E278F47E04A93A6CD9FF0@BM1PR01MB0290.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CA+QA-K0Zh7oCc6y1PJJJknHDkzMDVLAtFWXvBR+P=2jOFXV3Eg@mail.gmail.com>

Very Happy And Prosperous New Year To All Members

with regards,

Dr. Rekha
EFLU



On 1 January 2016 at 11:33, Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti <dchakra at hotmail.de>
wrote:

>
> Dear Members,
>
> I wish you all a very happy New Year 2016!
>
> Regards
>
> Debabrata Chakrabarti
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ???This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how
> you play it.??? ??? Anandamayi Ma
>
> ???Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and
> unbroken.??? - Paracelsus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Sun Jan  3 04:58:05 2016
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 16 23:58:05 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two articles needed
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQHeRrHO0dy+N1rCoLH3g4ODSgz2wnejxEYz=Kd4HU1ipw@mail.gmail.com>

Would any list members have pdfs of the following two articles.

1) The Migration of the Magic Symbol Om by J.J. Boeles  pages 40-57 , India
Antiqua, A Volume of Indian Studies presented by his friends and pupils to
Jean Phillipe Vogel on the occasion of the fiftieth anniversary of his
doctorate, Leyden 1947

2) Om by Keith, A, B., pages 490 to 492 in Encyclopaedia of Religion and
Ethics, editor James Hastings, Vol. IX, Edinburgh 1917

Thanks,
Harry Spier


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jan  3 06:49:50 2016
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 16 23:49:50 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two articles needed
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQHeRrHO0dy+N1rCoLH3g4ODSgz2wnejxEYz=Kd4HU1ipw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CfC-U+onP4AL_LnDXdp1JWjZDDBi6DtC_wcd7MG7DNuEw@mail.gmail.com>

Here's the Keith, at least:

https://archive.org/stream/bub_gb_HT0TAAAAYAAJ#page/n509/mode/2up


--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk* <http://ualberta.Academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
University of Alberta, Canada

On 2 January 2016 at 21:58, Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com> wrote:

> Would any list members have pdfs of the following two articles.
>
> 1) The Migration of the Magic Symbol Om by J.J. Boeles  pages 40-57 ,
> India Antiqua, A Volume of Indian Studies presented by his friends and
> pupils to Jean Phillipe Vogel on the occasion of the fiftieth anniversary
> of his doctorate, Leyden 1947
>
> 2) Om by Keith, A, B., pages 490 to 492 in Encyclopaedia of Religion and
> Ethics, editor James Hastings, Vol. IX, Edinburgh 1917
>
> Thanks,
> Harry Spier
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Sun Jan  3 12:56:52 2016
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 16 12:56:52 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two articles needed
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CfC-U+onP4AL_LnDXdp1JWjZDDBi6DtC_wcd7MG7DNuEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB114-W330115B82FB06EB45A775BA5F10@phx.gbl>

And here's the Boeles. (The point Boeles is trying to make is by now far-outdated: see Journal Asiatique 295.2, 2007, 349-381, n. 10.)

Arlo Griffiths
EFEO


From: wujastyk at gmail.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 23:49:50 -0700
To: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Two articles needed
CC: indology at list.indology.info

Here's the Keith, at least:
https://archive.org/stream/bub_gb_HT0TAAAAYAAJ#page/n509/mode/2up
--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk*
Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
Department of History and Classics
University of Alberta, Canada






On 2 January 2016 at 21:58, Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com> wrote:
Would any list members have pdfs of the following two articles.

1) The Migration of the Magic Symbol Om by J.J. Boeles  pages 40-57 , India Antiqua, A Volume of Indian Studies presented by his friends and pupils to Jean Phillipe Vogel on the occasion of the fiftieth anniversary of his doctorate, Leyden 1947
2) Om by Keith, A, B., pages 490 to 492 in Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, editor James Hastings, Vol. IX, Edinburgh 1917
Thanks,Harry Spier

_______________________________________________

INDOLOGY mailing list

INDOLOGY at list.indology.info

indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)

http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) 		 	   		  


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 00:32:48 2016
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 16 19:32:48 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two articles needed
In-Reply-To: <DUB114-W330115B82FB06EB45A775BA5F10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQHk5rVcdGt69o1rfqdk1jvnGtjPQkOBvZjhtDnFFQNVxw@mail.gmail.com>

Would it be possible for someone to also send me the article Arlo refers to
below.  I'm a hundred miles from any University libraries.

Thanks,
Harry

On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 7:56 AM, Arlo Griffiths <arlogriffiths at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> And here's the Boeles. (The point Boeles is trying to make is by now
> far-outdated: see Journal Asiatique 295.2, 2007, 349-381, n. 10.)
>
> Arlo Griffiths
> EFEO
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: wujastyk at gmail.com
> Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 23:49:50 -0700
> To: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Two articles needed
> CC: indology at list.indology.info
>
>
> Here's the Keith, at least:
>
> https://archive.org/stream/bub_gb_HT0TAAAAYAAJ#page/n509/mode/2up
>
>
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk* <http://ualberta.Academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
> Department of History and Classics
> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
> University of Alberta, Canada
>
> On 2 January 2016 at 21:58, Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Would any list members have pdfs of the following two articles.
>
> 1) The Migration of the Magic Symbol Om by J.J. Boeles  pages 40-57 ,
> India Antiqua, A Volume of Indian Studies presented by his friends and
> pupils to Jean Phillipe Vogel on the occasion of the fiftieth anniversary
> of his doctorate, Leyden 1947
>
> 2) Om by Keith, A, B., pages 490 to 492 in Encyclopaedia of Religion and
> Ethics, editor James Hastings, Vol. IX, Edinburgh 1917
>
> Thanks,
> Harry Spier
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages
> to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where
> you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 03:53:04 2016
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 16 22:53:04 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translation of vedic verse needed.
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQHzKKeaBsqPrj7+5b0S3c_-Q=BfFzaoK0LX7825pBEZJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

First thank you to all the list members who sent me the articles on Om I
needed.

Secondly do any of the vedic specialists have a translation of verse 2.13
from the Vajasaneyi Samhita. My understanding from Keiths article is that
this is the earliest explicit occurance of Om in the literature. Also my
understanding is that Griffiths translation of the Vajasaneyi Samhita can't
always be trusted.

The verse 2.13 :

m?no <javascript:ci(16915,'mano')> j?t?r <javascript:ci(16915,'j6B01tir')>
ju?at?m <javascript:ci(16915,'ju631Eat0101m')> ??jyasya
<javascript:ci(16915,'0101jyasya')> b??hasp?tir
<javascript:ci(16915,'br2503haspatir')> yaj??m
<javascript:ci(16915,'yajF100am')> im?? <javascript:ci(16915,'ima431E')>
tanotu <javascript:ci(16915,'tanotu')> \


?ri??a? <javascript:ci(16915,'ari631E6D1Ea431E')> yaj??m?
<javascript:ci(16915,'yajF100a431E')> s?m <javascript:ci(16915,'sam')> im??
<javascript:ci(16915,'ima431E')> dadh?tu
<javascript:ci(16915,'dadB0020101tu')> v??ve
<javascript:ci(16915,'vi5B01ve')> dev??sa <javascript:ci(16915,'dev0101sa')>
 ih? <javascript:ci(16915,'iha')> m?dayant?m
<javascript:ci(16915,'m0101dayant0101m')> ?3? <javascript:ci(16915,'o431E')>
 pr? <javascript:ci(16915,'pra')> ti??ha
<javascript:ci(16915,'ti631E6D1EB002a')> \\

Thanks,
Harry Spier


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From venetia.ansell at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 10:10:50 2016
From: venetia.ansell at gmail.com (Venetia Kotamraju)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 16 15:40:50 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] itihasa reading recommendations
Message-ID: <CAP3TDYB76-NRBCbAXv6dj0P67e2PVvAkJCGMxONoidLe6MBnGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Happy new year to all.

Can anyone recommend reading material for a lady who is writing a book on
the debate of the 'truth' of itihasa through the texts of the Mahabharata
and the Ramayana?

Thanks very much

Venetia

-- 
Venetia Kotamraju
+91 997230 5440
www.rasalabooks.com
www.venetiaansell.wordpress.com


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 10:33:06 2016
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 16 11:33:06 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translation of vedic verse needed.
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQHzKKeaBsqPrj7+5b0S3c_-Q=BfFzaoK0LX7825pBEZJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoCW0D6sUOvXOrZGzX1cpPNM4ZYgwgPNkb7rnjMtis4xcQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Harry,
Asko Parpola discussed "the primary meaning and etymology of the sacred
syllable Om" in 1981 (in Studia Orientalia 50: 195-213) and summarizes his
theory of its (proto-)Dravidian origin together with other "fairly
convincing examples of Dravidian loanwords" in his recent book The Roots of
Hinduism - The Early Aryans and the Indus Civilization, OUP 2015 pp.
169-172.
Hans Henrich Hock's 1991 article "On the origin and early development of
the sacred Sanskrit syllable om" appeared in *Perspectives on Indo-European
language, culture, and religion:  Studies in honor of Edgar C. Polom?*
1.89-110.
Best, Jan



*Jan E.M. HOUBEN*

Directeur d??tudes

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

*?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques

CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

www.ephe.fr


On 4 January 2016 at 04:53, Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> First thank you to all the list members who sent me the articles on Om I
> needed.
>
> Secondly do any of the vedic specialists have a translation of verse 2.13
> from the Vajasaneyi Samhita. My understanding from Keiths article is that
> this is the earliest explicit occurance of Om in the literature. Also my
> understanding is that Griffiths translation of the Vajasaneyi Samhita can't
> always be trusted.
>
> The verse 2.13 :
>
> m?no j?t?r ju?at?m ??jyasya b??hasp?tir yaj??m im?? tanotu \
>
>
> ?ri??a? yaj??m? s?m im?? dadh?tu v??ve dev??sa ih? m?dayant?m ?3? pr? ti??
> ha \\
>
> Thanks,
> Harry Spier
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From fmgerety at fas.harvard.edu  Mon Jan  4 17:30:35 2016
From: fmgerety at fas.harvard.edu (Moore Gerety, Finnian McKean)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 16 17:30:35 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] OM in the Vedas [was: Translation of vedic verse needed]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.66.1451926814.9959.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <396118EE-56D7-4456-9FC3-668F59C850ED@fas.harvard.edu>

Dear Harry--
My recent dissertation treats the history of OM in Vedic texts and ritual:
Gerety, Finnian M.M. 2015. "This Whole World is OM: Song, Soteriology, and the Emergence of the Sacred Syllable." PhD. diss., Department of South Asian Studies, Harvard University.
https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/17467527
Chapter Two deals with passages from the Sa?hit?s (including your passage VS 2.13 with partial translation, p. 55), while Chapter Four discusses previous accounts of the syllable's origins and early history (including those of Keith, Parpola, and Hock). In a nutshell, I argue that S?mavedic texts and rituals played a decisive role in fostering OM's emergence as a "sacred syllable"; as far as I can tell, the earliest actual attestation of OM in Vedic texts is as a stobha in the songs of the S?maveda Sa?hit?s. However, because OM is implicated in the recitations of all three Vedic liturgies, the syllable was likely added to mantras in ritual performance much more frequently than the evidence of the Sa?hit?s alone would suggest. Thus, a comprehensive assessment of OM in the Vedas also requires reconstructing recitation and performance with the help of the ?rauta S?tras (see my Chapter Three).
 yours,
Finnian
Visiting Assistant Professor of Religious Studies // Brown University

http://finniangerety.com/



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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 17:40:53 2016
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 16 23:10:53 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] itihasa reading recommendations
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eb2LA8xnCPdU9GuTArtn7y0sm-8utddFtxGQS_e__M0qg@mail.gmail.com>

There are two ways the truth issue references in this case can be viewed:

1. 'Itihasa' as a category by itself not translated as myth or legend or
any such thing:

The recent one I remember is this article in the lines of itihasa versus
history debate:

https://www.academia.edu/9462514/What_Do_Indians_Need_a_History_or_the_Past_A_challenge_or_two_to_Indian_historians_Parts_I_and_II

2. The 'truth' aspect for 'myth'  discussed in Kant and Kantian works may
also be useful as a theoretical/philosophical starting point.

-N



-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From jacob at fabularasa.dk  Mon Jan  4 23:19:24 2016
From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 16 00:19:24 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81r=C4=81javijaya?=
Message-ID: <2f76f23a9dd639276e45fe21ff11dd5e@fabularasa.dk>

Dear list,

In the article "Dice-Play on the First Day of the White Half of the 
Month, Kartika" published in the Quarterly Journal of the Mythic Society 
(Vol. XIV, 1923) by Dr. R. Shama Sastry, a passage about dice-play from 
a work entitled "Maharajavijaya" is given in English translation. No 
further information is provided, and no such title is listed in the NCC.

Can anybody help me find out which work Dr. Sastry is referring to?

Kind regards,
Jacob

Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
PhD Fellow
Section of Indology
Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
University of Copenhagen
Denmark





From karp at uw.edu.pl  Tue Jan  5 14:37:30 2016
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 16 15:37:30 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] amrita
Message-ID: <CALNcvFvcNiC4ROK4aSYjeN4NLEXn2xSHRYeRrZZEMCtdDnNQ4A@mail.gmail.com>

A Happy New Year wishes to all INDOLOGY denizens --- from frosty Poland

and

a question:

the earliest mention of amrita - not as an adjective - but as a substance,
to be shared or fought for?

Artur Karp
South Asian Studies Deptt, University of Warsaw (emeritus)


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From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz  Tue Jan  5 14:45:17 2016
From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (Lubomir Ondracka)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 16 15:45:17 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] amrita
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFvcNiC4ROK4aSYjeN4NLEXn2xSHRYeRrZZEMCtdDnNQ4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160105154517.24e5c93f3bab0a5fd68de573@ff.cuni.cz>

Dear Artur,

for the earliest occurrences of am?ta and its meaning(s) see:

Paul Thieme, "Ambrosia", in Studien zur indogermanischen Wortkunde und Religionsgeschichte, Berlin: Akademie Verlag, 1952, pp. 15?34.

Best,
Lubomir

----
Lubomir Ondracka
Institute for Philosophy & Religious Studies
Charles University, Namesti Jana Palacha 2
116 38  Praha 1, Czech Republic
e-mail: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz


On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 15:37:30 +0100
Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:

> A Happy New Year wishes to all INDOLOGY denizens --- from frosty Poland
> 
> and
> 
> a question:
> 
> the earliest mention of amrita - not as an adjective - but as a substance,
> to be shared or fought for?
> 
> Artur Karp
> South Asian Studies Deptt, University of Warsaw (emeritus)





From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Tue Jan  5 16:38:25 2016
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 16 22:08:25 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] amrita
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFvcNiC4ROK4aSYjeN4NLEXn2xSHRYeRrZZEMCtdDnNQ4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qK4qEsvE+dL4Dqw=3+rRDJQ41wpXeMo+7h_bxiMquB79g@mail.gmail.com>

5.1.16

Dear Professor Karup

The distinction between immortality and the substance giving immortality
became vague in Classical Sanskrit but it is already blurred in AVP 2.6.3c (AV?
2.1.5c) *y?tra* *dev**?**??*  *am?*?*tam* *?nan??n**?**??**?*. In the
Atharvaveda the plant *ku??ha* (*saussurea* *lappa*) too seems to have been
conceived as the elixir of life. This was discussed by me in 2005.

Best

DB

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 8:07 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:

> A Happy New Year wishes to all INDOLOGY denizens --- from frosty Poland
>
> and
>
> a question:
>
> the earliest mention of amrita - not as an adjective - but as a substance,
> to be shared or fought for?
>
> Artur Karp
> South Asian Studies Deptt, University of Warsaw (emeritus)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From rhododaktylos at gmail.com  Tue Jan  5 17:38:42 2016
From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 16 17:38:42 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Manusm=E1=B9=9Bti_secondary_literature?=
Message-ID: <CAEjEOsBr9jD3pPLTRmOQ0zO=s8bDEPSA4u7m01Wi1O28K60PHA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

I am required to teach excerpts from the Manusm?ti for the first time. I
have the overall secondary material I need, but I always like to ask around
before teaching new topics: is there one article or book chapter on the
Manusm?ti that you particularly appreciate, and perhaps like to assign to
your students? It does not have to be something completely introductory or
general; I am looking for any piece that you think makes for especially
engaging reading.

Many thanks, and all the best,
     Antonia


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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Tue Jan  5 19:37:28 2016
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 16 14:37:28 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] amrita
In-Reply-To: <CABEB9qK4qEsvE+dL4Dqw=3+rRDJQ41wpXeMo+7h_bxiMquB79g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zvBUpk_b6P7W2Z3ZD4r3gUyYZz1qPb=961MSZu3RwenkA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Artur,

Just to add a little note to what Lubomir and Dipak have already rightly
said.

There are lots of references in the RV to amrta as a substance, such as
Soma.  See Grassman's Woerterbuch zum Rigveda. See his meanings 7 and 8 on
amrta.

Best wishes,

George

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> 5.1.16
>
> Dear Professor Karup
>
> The distinction between immortality and the substance giving immortality
> became vague in Classical Sanskrit but it is already blurred in AVP 2.6.3c (AV?
> 2.1.5c) *y?tra* *dev**?**??*  *am?*?*tam* *?nan??n**?**??**?*. In the
> Atharvaveda the plant *ku??ha* (*saussurea* *lappa*) too seems to have
> been conceived as the elixir of life. This was discussed by me in 2005.
>
> Best
>
> DB
>
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 8:07 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>
>> A Happy New Year wishes to all INDOLOGY denizens --- from frosty Poland
>>
>> and
>>
>> a question:
>>
>> the earliest mention of amrita - not as an adjective - but as a
>> substance, to be shared or fought for?
>>
>> Artur Karp
>> South Asian Studies Deptt, University of Warsaw (emeritus)
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Wed Jan  6 03:17:51 2016
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 16 08:47:51 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] amrita
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zvBUpk_b6P7W2Z3ZD4r3gUyYZz1qPb=961MSZu3RwenkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qJhPMrEnf+9DwkM6kxvfiBK2uh8ytbPso1s4kv7Sd8dRg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks George! I just continue by adding that a direct mention of *am?ta *
(ambrosia) meaning *ku??ha*   occurs in *tatr?m?tasya* *cak?a?am*/* ?siktam*
/ *roha?am*/ / (AVP 7.10.6-8, 9.10,7 and 5.8.8, 15.15.4 and its
corresponding AV? verses).

DB

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 1:07 AM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Artur,
>
> Just to add a little note to what Lubomir and Dipak have already rightly
> said.
>
> There are lots of references in the RV to amrta as a substance, such as
> Soma.  See Grassman's Woerterbuch zum Rigveda. See his meanings 7 and 8 on
> amrta.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> George
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> 5.1.16
>>
>> Dear Professor Karup
>>
>> The distinction between immortality and the substance giving immortality
>> became vague in Classical Sanskrit but it is already blurred in AVP 2.6.3
>> c (AV? 2.1.5c) *y?tra* *dev**?**??*  *am?*?*tam* *?nan??n**?**??**?*. In
>> the Atharvaveda the plant *ku??ha* (*saussurea* *lappa*) too seems to
>> have been conceived as the elixir of life. This was discussed by me in
>> 2005.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> DB
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 8:07 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>
>>> A Happy New Year wishes to all INDOLOGY denizens --- from frosty Poland
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> a question:
>>>
>>> the earliest mention of amrita - not as an adjective - but as a
>>> substance, to be shared or fought for?
>>>
>>> Artur Karp
>>> South Asian Studies Deptt, University of Warsaw (emeritus)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Wed Jan  6 13:42:32 2016
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 16 14:42:32 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] itihasa reading recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAP3TDYB76-NRBCbAXv6dj0P67e2PVvAkJCGMxONoidLe6MBnGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A4775236-0DA3-484C-A0C3-530F64EF574A@uclouvain.be>

Dear Venetia,
Beside the itih?sa-pur??a self-proclaiming to relate what really once happened (and so to serve as a proto-history, which is according to me the main function of myths) as it was heard and transmitted (cf. MBh 1,1.48 etc., Rm 1,5.3, etc., E.W. Hopkins Great Epics1901, pp. 50-54, A. Guruge, Society in the Rm 1991, p. 2 ?3, and on the use of sm?ta, ?ruta, ?ruti etc. in epics and pur??as, F.E. Pargiter AITM 1922, pp. 18-21) or even to contain the whole truth (cf. the famous statement of MBh 1,56.33, 18,5.38, which can be understood in this way), an interesting indigenous discussion justifying what could appear as adharmic in these "true" stories of the past is found in Kum?rila's Tantrav?rtikka I, 3, 4, s?tra 7 (translated in French by L. Renou, Anthologie sanskrite 1947, pp. 212-214).
Best wishes,
Christophe

Le 4 janv. 2016 ? 11:10, Venetia Kotamraju <venetia.ansell at gmail.com> a ?crit :

> Happy new year to all.
> 
> Can anyone recommend reading material for a lady who is writing a book on the debate of the 'truth' of itihasa through the texts of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana?
> 
> Thanks very much
> 
> Venetia
> 
> -- 
> Venetia Kotamraju
> +91 997230 5440
> www.rasalabooks.com
> www.venetiaansell.wordpress.com
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle
Louvain-la-Neuve



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From whitakjl at wfu.edu  Wed Jan  6 16:35:58 2016
From: whitakjl at wfu.edu (Jarrod Whitaker)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 16 11:35:58 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Death's Footprint
In-Reply-To: <54C93099.7080107@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <568D426E.4030701@wfu.edu>

Colleagues:
Has anyone written on the phrase mr?ty?? pad?m (mr.tyo'h. pada'm) in the 
RV and AV (or later texts)? My cursory search has come up short.

Does death leave a footprint behind (possessive or subjective genitive)? 
Or are the footprints left by the living for death to follow (objective 
genitive)? The latter seems to be the reasonable conclusion, but it's 
not evident in the genitive phrase. The phrase appears in the RV's 
funeral hymn (10.18.2), where the living wipe out "death's footprint" 
when they return home, which suggests they erase their own trail so 
death can't follow them,  but in stanza 1 death is banished along his 
own faraway/distant/remote path (which is different to the gods), which 
suggests that death does follow (and leave?) his own footprints or 
trail. Perhaps it's some kind of "plenary" genitive indicating both 
possibilities...

Happy New Year!
JW

Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D.
Associate Professor,
Graduate Program Director,
Department for the Study of Religions.

Faculty, Department of Women's,
Gender and Sexuality Studies.

Wake Forest University
P.O. Box 7212
Winston-Salem, NC 27109
whitakjl at wfu.edu
p 336.758.4162







From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Wed Jan  6 17:16:49 2016
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 16 22:46:49 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Death's Footprint
In-Reply-To: <568D426E.4030701@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qKG9FApmhaE=OFUpa4uyHUQO7C3gPxtv2Vs8+vWn0nnEA@mail.gmail.com>

*pada* may mean ?place, station?.

There is a discussion on p?da/pada by Renou. Unfortunately I cannot go into
the details immediately. But I remember that it occurred either in the
Introduction G?n?rale AiG I 1957 or in ?Notes sur la version ?Paippal?da?
de l?Atharvaveda? *Journal Asiatique* 1964, 421-450. I may give further
information later.

Best

DB

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Jarrod Whitaker <whitakjl at wfu.edu> wrote:

> Colleagues:
> Has anyone written on the phrase mr?ty?? pad?m (mr.tyo'h. pada'm) in the
> RV and AV (or later texts)? My cursory search has come up short.
>
> Does death leave a footprint behind (possessive or subjective genitive)?
> Or are the footprints left by the living for death to follow (objective
> genitive)? The latter seems to be the reasonable conclusion, but it's not
> evident in the genitive phrase. The phrase appears in the RV's funeral hymn
> (10.18.2), where the living wipe out "death's footprint" when they return
> home, which suggests they erase their own trail so death can't follow
> them,  but in stanza 1 death is banished along his own
> faraway/distant/remote path (which is different to the gods), which
> suggests that death does follow (and leave?) his own footprints or trail.
> Perhaps it's some kind of "plenary" genitive indicating both
> possibilities...
>
> Happy New Year!
> JW
>
> Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor,
> Graduate Program Director,
> Department for the Study of Religions.
>
> Faculty, Department of Women's,
> Gender and Sexuality Studies.
>
> Wake Forest University
> P.O. Box 7212
> Winston-Salem, NC 27109
> whitakjl at wfu.edu
> p 336.758.4162
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Jan  6 18:54:06 2016
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 16 00:24:06 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] itihasa reading recommendations
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ea=NOMUa=abKSQKqGz90ZberCmtkgU4dPXvRhCjNFry_A@mail.gmail.com>

There was a thread on this list, during july 2014, that discussed the issue
of Mahabharata and 'real history' as a matter of course:

http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2014-July/039796.html

That part of the thread may be useful for the present inquiry.

Jung's works should be useful to deal with the issue of 'truth' in 'myths'
from the point of view of Psychoanalysis (more precisely analytical
psychology).



-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Wed Jan  6 19:46:04 2016
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 16 14:46:04 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Death's Footprint
In-Reply-To: <CABEB9qKG9FApmhaE=OFUpa4uyHUQO7C3gPxtv2Vs8+vWn0nnEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zti66w95cQT8EiZUh9f8pkJxyUznTQVoz7HeCWiRUcEUw@mail.gmail.com>

 Dear Jarrod, Dipak, and all,

In 1995 I published [in IIJ 38, pp.1-30] a paper entitled "The Pursuit of
Hidden Tracks in Vedic."  In it I discuss RV 10.18.2 briefly.
Unfortunately I do not have a pdf of this.  Buy I can quote what I said
there:

"Similarly metonymic is the expressive magic used in an apotropaic practice
attested in a funeral hymn, RV 10.18.  In st..2 the relatives of the
deceased are required to "erase the footprints of death" [I leave out all
Skt text to save time], as they leave the funeral pyre to return to
everyday life.  The hope is expressed in st. 3 that death will thereby not
follow them as they return home, to dancing and laughter....  {T]hese
relatives are afraid that the deceased's spirit will not be satisfied with
his leave-taking, that he will trouble his family unless he is adequately
appeased, that death may thus pursue the living.  Among other
precautions... the ritual of erasing the footprints is a means pf
preventing death's pursuit....

What interested me back then about the term pada is its wide semantic
range.  This also attracted Renou's attention in his 1958 monograph *Etudes
sur le vocabulaire du Rgveda*.  To give a sense of what I was thinking
then, I wrote a version of it for *Semiotica: Journal of the Intl.
Association for Semiotic Studies.*  The ediitor-in-chief at the time was
Thomas Sebeok, whose work I was introduced to b Frits Staal.  The title of
that paper was ""From 'footstep' to 'word' in Sanskrit."

In both papers I suggested that the Vedic rsis, absorbed as they were in
their riddling, esoteric brahmodyas, were highly sensitive to signs of all
sorts [not just footprints but also words] and to the inferences that we
draw from them.   In both papers I conclude that not only were the Vedic
rsis sophisticated proto-linguists [as Frits has argued], but that they
also had a science which I called "Vedic semiotics."

Well, I was more exuberant then than I am now.

Maybe this is of some interest to you all.

Best wishes,

George







On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> *pada* may mean ?place, station?.
>
> There is a discussion on p?da/pada by Renou. Unfortunately I cannot go
> into the details immediately. But I remember that it occurred either in the
> Introduction G?n?rale AiG I 1957 or in ?Notes sur la version ?Paippal?da?
> de l?Atharvaveda? *Journal Asiatique* 1964, 421-450. I may give further
> information later.
>
> Best
>
> DB
>
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Jarrod Whitaker <whitakjl at wfu.edu> wrote:
>
>> Colleagues:
>> Has anyone written on the phrase mr?ty?? pad?m (mr.tyo'h. pada'm) in the
>> RV and AV (or later texts)? My cursory search has come up short.
>>
>> Does death leave a footprint behind (possessive or subjective genitive)?
>> Or are the footprints left by the living for death to follow (objective
>> genitive)? The latter seems to be the reasonable conclusion, but it's not
>> evident in the genitive phrase. The phrase appears in the RV's funeral hymn
>> (10.18.2), where the living wipe out "death's footprint" when they return
>> home, which suggests they erase their own trail so death can't follow
>> them,  but in stanza 1 death is banished along his own
>> faraway/distant/remote path (which is different to the gods), which
>> suggests that death does follow (and leave?) his own footprints or trail.
>> Perhaps it's some kind of "plenary" genitive indicating both
>> possibilities...
>>
>> Happy New Year!
>> JW
>>
>> Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D.
>> Associate Professor,
>> Graduate Program Director,
>> Department for the Study of Religions.
>>
>> Faculty, Department of Women's,
>> Gender and Sexuality Studies.
>>
>> Wake Forest University
>> P.O. Box 7212
>> Winston-Salem, NC 27109
>> whitakjl at wfu.edu
>> p 336.758.4162
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de  Thu Jan  7 10:19:28 2016
From: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de (Julia Hegewald)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 16 11:19:28 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Exhibition on Himalayan Art, The University of Bonn
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zti66w95cQT8EiZUh9f8pkJxyUznTQVoz7HeCWiRUcEUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <75476448-2080-4ECD-9849-400A6F5BF1D1@uni-bonn.de>

Dear colleagues and friends,

I would like to draw your attention to an exhibition entitled "Public Space and Art in the Himalayas? which I have been organising with MA and BA students from my department in cooperation with our Alexander von Humboldt Fellow, Prof. Pratyush Shankar from Ahmedabad. The opening is on 18th January 2016. There is a programme of lectures accompanying the exhibition. Please see the attached flyer for further information.

If you are in Germany in January we would be delighted to welcome you to Bonn for the exhibition and/or the lectures.

with kind regards,

Julia Hegewald.




Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald
Professor of Oriental Art History
Head of Department
University of Bonn
Institute of Oriental and Asian Studies (IOA)
Department of Asian and Islamic Art History
Adenauerallee 10
53113 Bonn
Germany

Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de
www.aik.uni-bonn.de
Tel. 0049-228-73 7213
Fax. 0049-228-73 4042







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From dchakra at hotmail.de  Thu Jan  7 14:42:06 2016
From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 16 14:42:06 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] WG: WSC
In-Reply-To: <3CB2163E97BF4DD4B83496FB84A587E2@POONAMPC>
Message-ID: <BM1PR01MB02903BB97EC655B3FF9E0DF1D9F50@BM1PR01MB0290.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>


Please see the following letter written to me by Motilal Banarsidass Publishers:

Von: MLBD <mlbd at mlbd.com>

Gesendet: Donnerstag, 7. Januar 2016 11:03
An: dchakra at hotmail.de
Betreff: WSC


Dear Dr. Chakrabarti

We are publishing  papers of the above conference held in Helsinki & Edinburgh since long. 80% books have been published in several volumes. The entire project will be completed by the middle of next year. Please circulate the news among all the Indologists. Anyone can order online,the details are available on the site.

If you aren't on our mailing list,we will add your name. Please give your details. Should you or anyone interested to give their project for consideration of publishing can write to me direct.

Looking forward to hearing from you

Sincerely
Rajeev Jain



WISHING YOU A VERY HAPPY AND A PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR !!
************************************************
Be like the water. When there are stones on the path of water, what does
it do? It rises above the stones and flows.
**************************************************
Motilal Banarsidass Publishers
41 UA Bungalow Road,
Jawahar Nagar
Delhi-110007 (India)
Tel: (011) 23851985 / 23858335
Fax: (011) 23850689 / 25797221
Email: mlbd at mlbd.com
Website: www.mlbd.com
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Thu Jan  7 17:06:12 2016
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 16 12:06:12 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Death's Footprint
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zti66w95cQT8EiZUh9f8pkJxyUznTQVoz7HeCWiRUcEUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zufxXQC2rs99_Fby5ruLjMzSPhy0sg5Lt13A4JiVKSDPQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

Two additional notes on mr?ty?? pad?m:

First, thanks to the kindness of Hartmut Buescher, I now have access to a
pdf of my "Pursuit of Hidden Track" paper, and will try to attach it here.

Second, the Thieme paper on Ambrosia is also available in *Indogermaische
Dichtersprache* edited by R.Schmitt for the Wege der Forschung Series, Band
CLXV, 1968.  I have been re-reading it.  This is how Thieme translates
amrta [accent on second syllable] [neuter]: "Leben, Lebenskraft [nicht
"Unsterblichkeit"], heisst also eigentlich "Lebenskraft enthaltend" [p.
114].  Thieme demonstrates that the term amrta, like ambrosia, belongs to
the old IE Dichtersprache.

With best wishes,

George

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Dear Jarrod, Dipak, and all,
>
> In 1995 I published [in IIJ 38, pp.1-30] a paper entitled "The Pursuit of
> Hidden Tracks in Vedic."  In it I discuss RV 10.18.2 briefly.
> Unfortunately I do not have a pdf of this.  Buy I can quote what I said
> there:
>
> "Similarly metonymic is the expressive magic used in an apotropaic
> practice attested in a funeral hymn, RV 10.18.  In st..2 the relatives of
> the deceased are required to "erase the footprints of death" [I leave out
> all Skt text to save time], as they leave the funeral pyre to return to
> everyday life.  The hope is expressed in st. 3 that death will thereby not
> follow them as they return home, to dancing and laughter....  {T]hese
> relatives are afraid that the deceased's spirit will not be satisfied with
> his leave-taking, that he will trouble his family unless he is adequately
> appeased, that death may thus pursue the living.  Among other
> precautions... the ritual of erasing the footprints is a means pf
> preventing death's pursuit....
>
> What interested me back then about the term pada is its wide semantic
> range.  This also attracted Renou's attention in his 1958 monograph *Etudes
> sur le vocabulaire du Rgveda*.  To give a sense of what I was thinking
> then, I wrote a version of it for *Semiotica: Journal of the Intl.
> Association for Semiotic Studies.*  The ediitor-in-chief at the time was
> Thomas Sebeok, whose work I was introduced to b Frits Staal.  The title of
> that paper was ""From 'footstep' to 'word' in Sanskrit."
>
> In both papers I suggested that the Vedic rsis, absorbed as they were in
> their riddling, esoteric brahmodyas, were highly sensitive to signs of all
> sorts [not just footprints but also words] and to the inferences that we
> draw from them.   In both papers I conclude that not only were the Vedic
> rsis sophisticated proto-linguists [as Frits has argued], but that they
> also had a science which I called "Vedic semiotics."
>
> Well, I was more exuberant then than I am now.
>
> Maybe this is of some interest to you all.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> George
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> *pada* may mean ?place, station?.
>>
>> There is a discussion on p?da/pada by Renou. Unfortunately I cannot go
>> into the details immediately. But I remember that it occurred either in the
>> Introduction G?n?rale AiG I 1957 or in ?Notes sur la version ?Paippal?da?
>> de l?Atharvaveda? *Journal Asiatique* 1964, 421-450. I may give further
>> information later.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> DB
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Jarrod Whitaker <whitakjl at wfu.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Colleagues:
>>> Has anyone written on the phrase mr?ty?? pad?m (mr.tyo'h. pada'm) in the
>>> RV and AV (or later texts)? My cursory search has come up short.
>>>
>>> Does death leave a footprint behind (possessive or subjective genitive)?
>>> Or are the footprints left by the living for death to follow (objective
>>> genitive)? The latter seems to be the reasonable conclusion, but it's not
>>> evident in the genitive phrase. The phrase appears in the RV's funeral hymn
>>> (10.18.2), where the living wipe out "death's footprint" when they return
>>> home, which suggests they erase their own trail so death can't follow
>>> them,  but in stanza 1 death is banished along his own
>>> faraway/distant/remote path (which is different to the gods), which
>>> suggests that death does follow (and leave?) his own footprints or trail.
>>> Perhaps it's some kind of "plenary" genitive indicating both
>>> possibilities...
>>>
>>> Happy New Year!
>>> JW
>>>
>>> Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D.
>>> Associate Professor,
>>> Graduate Program Director,
>>> Department for the Study of Religions.
>>>
>>> Faculty, Department of Women's,
>>> Gender and Sexuality Studies.
>>>
>>> Wake Forest University
>>> P.O. Box 7212
>>> Winston-Salem, NC 27109
>>> whitakjl at wfu.edu
>>> p 336.758.4162
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Thu Jan  7 19:52:05 2016
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 16 20:52:05 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] amrita
In-Reply-To: <CABEB9qJhPMrEnf+9DwkM6kxvfiBK2uh8ytbPso1s4kv7Sd8dRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFvTsDvH0s6BiBFO2ez2iZQHowiEjM4iq-8a_MC0yT1CJQ@mail.gmail.com>

My heartfelt thanks to Lubomir, Dipak and George for their comments and
suggestions.

However,  there is a however: I am especially interested in any
*pre-Mahabharatic *(if I may say so) mentions of amrita as an object of
contention, strife - something that is, independently of its supposed
material form (liquid, metal, plant), fought for, stolen, divided,
distributed, shared.

Thanks, once more,

Artur Karp


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Fri Jan  8 02:50:01 2016
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 16 21:50:01 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Online krama and ghana mode recitations of Krsna	Yajurveda
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQG7rFdADr2YZVqHf+P3grgNrHHDC6wxXNSPKcap6Y=BQg@mail.gmail.com>

In case this is of interest to other list members, I came across this
website of the Arunachala Sadhana Trust with online audios of krama and
ghana recitations of the Krsna Yajurveda including complete krama and ghana
recitations of the rudram. Many other recitations there.

http://arunachalavedas.org

Cheers,
Harry Spier


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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Fri Jan  8 05:46:05 2016
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 16 11:16:05 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] amrita
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFvTsDvH0s6BiBFO2ez2iZQHowiEjM4iq-8a_MC0yT1CJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qJxgB1x5ZFiz6+TV+1Cz4WD25dmi4me+hCiOhoHoUYOqw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Professor Karp,
You have asked a question that assumes something, perhaps rihgtly, yet that
is not fully clear to scholars. A rivalry between the gods and the asuras
is reported in the Aitareya Brahmana but the AB is post-Rgvedic. *asura  *is,
at least mostly, a noble concept in the Rgveda. The seed of the Puranic
idea could be traced to its origin in the RV but the idea was not widely
spread. As Macdonell reports it occurs four times to mean some beings
opposed to the gods. But I have not checked. However, there is no mention
of the term *asura* in the story of the Panis (RV 10.108). In the Avesta
the term means 'powerrful', 'lord'. .
Best
DB

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 1:22 AM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:

> My heartfelt thanks to Lubomir, Dipak and George for their comments and
> suggestions.
>
> However,  there is a however: I am especially interested in any
> *pre-Mahabharatic *(if I may say so) mentions of amrita as an object of
> contention, strife - something that is, independently of its supposed
> material form (liquid, metal, plant), fought for, stolen, divided,
> distributed, shared.
>
> Thanks, once more,
>
> Artur Karp
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Fri Jan  8 08:37:24 2016
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 16 09:37:24 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] amrita
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFvTsDvH0s6BiBFO2ez2iZQHowiEjM4iq-8a_MC0yT1CJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FF6A6811-A789-4502-8691-34E53E10050D@uclouvain.be>

Dear Arthur,
did you look at :
? Jarl Charpentier, Die Supar?asage. Untersuchungen zur altindischen Literatur- und Sagengeschichte, Uppsala: ?. ?. Akademiska Bokhandeln - Leipzig: Otto Harrassowitz, 1922, in-8?, 399 pp.
on the legend of Supar?a stealing the soma/am?ta according to the Supar??dhy?ya etc.
Cf. review by P.E. Dumont: http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/rbph_0035-0818_1923_num_2_4_6264_t1_0713_0000_1
Maybe also something to find on the "ambrosia cycle" in :
? Georges Dum?zil, Le Festin d'immortalit?. ?tude de mythologie compar?e indo-europ?enne, Paris, Annales du Mus?e Guimet, Biblioth?que d'?tudes 34.
Best wishes,
Christophe

Le 7 janv. 2016 ? 20:52, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> a ?crit :

> My heartfelt thanks to Lubomir, Dipak and George for their comments and suggestions.
> 
> However,  there is a however: I am especially interested in any pre-Mahabharatic (if I may say so) mentions of amrita as an object of contention, strife - something that is, independently of its supposed material form (liquid, metal, plant), fought for, stolen, divided, distributed, shared.
> 
> Thanks, once more,
> 
> Artur Karp
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle
Louvain-la-Neuve



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From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl  Fri Jan  8 10:17:54 2016
From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 16 11:17:54 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] amrita
In-Reply-To: <FF6A6811-A789-4502-8691-34E53E10050D@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <CAAPrgbqRb=A+11JETLejYAQd2yhwqVWQTQ7z7MK4a4CnzLBzeg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Artur,

In the RV many adjectives are used as more or less abstract terms, for
example the adjective which refers to cows and dawns (usriya) or to horses
and Soma (hari). Amrta functions in the same way. It refers to Somic
exultation and to the state given thanks to it. It is shared in that there
are those who constantly partake in it (the gods and rsis) and those who
partake in it temporarily (men). The supernatural cognition is conceived in
terms of fight so in that it is fought for. Possibly, there are stanzas
which may imply that it is used in reference to Somic juice (so to the
substance) but this needs checking.

Best,

Joanna


---
dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz, prof. UW
Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
00-927 Warszawa
https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz

2016-01-08 9:37 GMT+01:00 Christophe Vielle <christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be>
:

> Dear Arthur,
> did you look at :
> ? Jarl Charpentier, *Die Supar?asage. Untersuchungen zur altindischen
> Literatur- und Sagengeschichte*, Uppsala: ?. ?. Akademiska Bokhandeln -
> Leipzig: Otto Harrassowitz, 1922, in-8?, 399 pp.
> on the legend of Supar?a stealing the soma/am?ta according to the Supar?
> ?dhy?ya etc.
> Cf. review by P.E. Dumont:
> http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/rbph_0035-0818_1923_num_2_4_6264_t1_0713_0000_1
> Maybe also something to find on the "ambrosia cycle" in :
> ? Georges Dum?zil, *Le Festin d'immortalit?. ?tude de mythologie compar?e
> indo-europ?enne*, Paris, Annales du Mus?e Guimet, Biblioth?que d'?tudes
> 34.
> Best wishes,
> Christophe
>
> Le 7 janv. 2016 ? 20:52, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> a ?crit :
>
> My heartfelt thanks to Lubomir, Dipak and George for their comments and
> suggestions.
>
> However,  there is a however: I am especially interested in any
> *pre-Mahabharatic *(if I may say so) mentions of amrita as an object of
> contention, strife - something that is, independently of its supposed
> material form (liquid, metal, plant), fought for, stolen, divided,
> distributed, shared.
>
> Thanks, once more,
>
> Artur Karp
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
> ???????????????????
> Christophe Vielle <http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle>
> Louvain-la-Neuve
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl  Fri Jan  8 10:29:58 2016
From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 16 11:29:58 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Death's Footprint
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zufxXQC2rs99_Fby5ruLjMzSPhy0sg5Lt13A4JiVKSDPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAPrgbqry+0-JrAGG+A8wc+ETK0A6i=ey1g_nKqmKTHwFV2x4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

I would also like to add a comment on the problem raised by Yarrod which
concerns the interpretation of mrtyoh in mrtyoh padam (which I have already
sent to Yarrod off the list). I think that both interpretations (i.e
subjective and objective genetive) are possible. However, as far as I know,
in the RV the first one is only implied via the concept of Yama who has
first found the way to the afterlife "pasture" which is to be followed by
people (RV 10.14.1-2, I write about it in my "Fire and Cognition"). The
concept of leaving tracks is the important source domain for
conceptualization various activities in the RV - as George has shown in his
paper.

Best,

Joanna


---
dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz, prof. UW
Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
00-927 Warszawa
https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz

2016-01-07 18:06 GMT+01:00 George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com>:

> Dear List,
>
> Two additional notes on mr?ty?? pad?m:
>
> First, thanks to the kindness of Hartmut Buescher, I now have access to a
> pdf of my "Pursuit of Hidden Track" paper, and will try to attach it here.
>
> Second, the Thieme paper on Ambrosia is also available in *Indogermaische
> Dichtersprache* edited by R.Schmitt for the Wege der Forschung Series, Band
> CLXV, 1968.  I have been re-reading it.  This is how Thieme translates
> amrta [accent on second syllable] [neuter]: "Leben, Lebenskraft [nicht
> "Unsterblichkeit"], heisst also eigentlich "Lebenskraft enthaltend" [p.
> 114].  Thieme demonstrates that the term amrta, like ambrosia, belongs to
> the old IE Dichtersprache.
>
> With best wishes,
>
> George
>
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  Dear Jarrod, Dipak, and all,
>>
>> In 1995 I published [in IIJ 38, pp.1-30] a paper entitled "The Pursuit of
>> Hidden Tracks in Vedic."  In it I discuss RV 10.18.2 briefly.
>> Unfortunately I do not have a pdf of this.  Buy I can quote what I said
>> there:
>>
>> "Similarly metonymic is the expressive magic used in an apotropaic
>> practice attested in a funeral hymn, RV 10.18.  In st..2 the relatives of
>> the deceased are required to "erase the footprints of death" [I leave out
>> all Skt text to save time], as they leave the funeral pyre to return to
>> everyday life.  The hope is expressed in st. 3 that death will thereby not
>> follow them as they return home, to dancing and laughter....  {T]hese
>> relatives are afraid that the deceased's spirit will not be satisfied with
>> his leave-taking, that he will trouble his family unless he is adequately
>> appeased, that death may thus pursue the living.  Among other
>> precautions... the ritual of erasing the footprints is a means pf
>> preventing death's pursuit....
>>
>> What interested me back then about the term pada is its wide semantic
>> range.  This also attracted Renou's attention in his 1958 monograph *Etudes
>> sur le vocabulaire du Rgveda*.  To give a sense of what I was thinking
>> then, I wrote a version of it for *Semiotica: Journal of the Intl.
>> Association for Semiotic Studies.*  The ediitor-in-chief at the time was
>> Thomas Sebeok, whose work I was introduced to b Frits Staal.  The title of
>> that paper was ""From 'footstep' to 'word' in Sanskrit."
>>
>> In both papers I suggested that the Vedic rsis, absorbed as they were in
>> their riddling, esoteric brahmodyas, were highly sensitive to signs of all
>> sorts [not just footprints but also words] and to the inferences that we
>> draw from them.   In both papers I conclude that not only were the Vedic
>> rsis sophisticated proto-linguists [as Frits has argued], but that they
>> also had a science which I called "Vedic semiotics."
>>
>> Well, I was more exuberant then than I am now.
>>
>> Maybe this is of some interest to you all.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> George
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya <
>> dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> *pada* may mean ?place, station?.
>>>
>>> There is a discussion on p?da/pada by Renou. Unfortunately I cannot go
>>> into the details immediately. But I remember that it occurred either in the
>>> Introduction G?n?rale AiG I 1957 or in ?Notes sur la version ?Paippal?da?
>>> de l?Atharvaveda? *Journal Asiatique* 1964, 421-450. I may give further
>>> information later.
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> DB
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Jarrod Whitaker <whitakjl at wfu.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Colleagues:
>>>> Has anyone written on the phrase mr?ty?? pad?m (mr.tyo'h. pada'm) in
>>>> the RV and AV (or later texts)? My cursory search has come up short.
>>>>
>>>> Does death leave a footprint behind (possessive or subjective
>>>> genitive)? Or are the footprints left by the living for death to follow
>>>> (objective genitive)? The latter seems to be the reasonable conclusion, but
>>>> it's not evident in the genitive phrase. The phrase appears in the RV's
>>>> funeral hymn (10.18.2), where the living wipe out "death's footprint" when
>>>> they return home, which suggests they erase their own trail so death can't
>>>> follow them,  but in stanza 1 death is banished along his own
>>>> faraway/distant/remote path (which is different to the gods), which
>>>> suggests that death does follow (and leave?) his own footprints or trail.
>>>> Perhaps it's some kind of "plenary" genitive indicating both
>>>> possibilities...
>>>>
>>>> Happy New Year!
>>>> JW
>>>>
>>>> Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D.
>>>> Associate Professor,
>>>> Graduate Program Director,
>>>> Department for the Study of Religions.
>>>>
>>>> Faculty, Department of Women's,
>>>> Gender and Sexuality Studies.
>>>>
>>>> Wake Forest University
>>>> P.O. Box 7212
>>>> Winston-Salem, NC 27109
>>>> whitakjl at wfu.edu
>>>> p 336.758.4162
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From hr at ivs.edu  Fri Jan  8 12:40:01 2016
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 16 04:40:01 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] amrita
In-Reply-To: <CABEB9qJxgB1x5ZFiz6+TV+1Cz4WD25dmi4me+hCiOhoHoUYOqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BEDB2FBC-065B-4DF0-92E5-BEB1DDD315EE@ivs.edu>

Forgive this ignorant question, but when do terms such as Daitya, DAnava etc first appear? Also, in the RV, who are the bad guys?
Thanks,
Howard

> On Jan 7, 2016, at 9:46 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Professor Karp,
> You have asked a question that assumes something, perhaps rihgtly, yet that is not fully clear to scholars. A rivalry between the gods and the asuras is reported in the Aitareya Brahmana but the AB is post-Rgvedic. asura  is, at least mostly, a noble concept in the Rgveda. The seed of the Puranic idea could be traced to its origin in the RV but the idea was not widely spread. As Macdonell reports it occurs four times to mean some beings opposed to the gods. But I have not checked. However, there is no mention of the term asura in the story of the Panis (RV 10.108). In the Avesta the term means 'powerrful', 'lord'. . 
> Best
> DB   
> 
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 1:22 AM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl <mailto:karp at uw.edu.pl>> wrote:
> My heartfelt thanks to Lubomir, Dipak and George for their comments and suggestions.
> 
> However,  there is a however: I am especially interested in any pre-Mahabharatic (if I may say so) mentions of amrita as an object of contention, strife - something that is, independently of its supposed material form (liquid, metal, plant), fought for, stolen, divided, distributed, shared.
> 
> Thanks, once more,
> 
> Artur Karp
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Fri Jan  8 13:36:36 2016
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 16 19:06:36 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] amrita
In-Reply-To: <CAAPrgbqRb=A+11JETLejYAQd2yhwqVWQTQ7z7MK4a4CnzLBzeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qLUH8k39oQh4dhzF4sDNjfTJc1Deb9hFgnSZOYnDgYyYQ@mail.gmail.com>

<In the RV many adjectives are used as more or less abstract terms, for
example the adjective which refers to cows and dawns (*usriya*) or to
horses and Soma (hari).>

I welcome Professor Jurewicz for her views that I have known for some time
and for her bold statement. I do not hesiatete to state that the
observation covers a large part of the Rigveda. But one may note that
Oldenberg had an approach that harped on concretenss. Klaus Mylius and here
Sukumari Bhattacharji stuck to that idea of concreteness.  On personal
conversation I understood that the latter see that there is no well-defined
and accepted methodology for pinpointing what is abstract and what is not
and one may be carried away by preconceived ideas like Coomaraswamy. While
personally congratulating Professor Jurewicz, I still hope to see a
successful attempt to find a methodology that is acceptable to the majority.

I am sorry for the long lecture.

Best

DB

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Joanna Jurewicz <j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl>
wrote:

> Dear Artur,
>
> In the RV many adjectives are used as more or less abstract terms, for
> example the adjective which refers to cows and dawns (usriya) or to horses
> and Soma (hari). Amrta functions in the same way. It refers to Somic
> exultation and to the state given thanks to it. It is shared in that there
> are those who constantly partake in it (the gods and rsis) and those who
> partake in it temporarily (men). The supernatural cognition is conceived in
> terms of fight so in that it is fought for. Possibly, there are stanzas
> which may imply that it is used in reference to Somic juice (so to the
> substance) but this needs checking.
>
> Best,
>
> Joanna
>
>
> ---
> dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz, prof. UW
> Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
> Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
> ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
> 00-927 Warszawa
> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>
> 2016-01-08 9:37 GMT+01:00 Christophe Vielle <
> christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be>:
>
>> Dear Arthur,
>> did you look at :
>> ? Jarl Charpentier, *Die Supar?asage. Untersuchungen zur altindischen
>> Literatur- und Sagengeschichte*, Uppsala: ?. ?. Akademiska Bokhandeln -
>> Leipzig: Otto Harrassowitz, 1922, in-8?, 399 pp.
>> on the legend of Supar?a stealing the soma/am?ta according to the Supar?
>> ?dhy?ya etc.
>> Cf. review by P.E. Dumont:
>> http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/rbph_0035-0818_1923_num_2_4_6264_t1_0713_0000_1
>> Maybe also something to find on the "ambrosia cycle" in :
>> ? Georges Dum?zil, *Le Festin d'immortalit?. ?tude de mythologie
>> compar?e indo-europ?enne*, Paris, Annales du Mus?e Guimet, Biblioth?que
>> d'?tudes 34.
>> Best wishes,
>> Christophe
>>
>> Le 7 janv. 2016 ? 20:52, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> a ?crit :
>>
>> My heartfelt thanks to Lubomir, Dipak and George for their comments and
>> suggestions.
>>
>> However,  there is a however: I am especially interested in any
>> *pre-Mahabharatic *(if I may say so) mentions of amrita as an object of
>> contention, strife - something that is, independently of its supposed
>> material form (liquid, metal, plant), fought for, stolen, divided,
>> distributed, shared.
>>
>> Thanks, once more,
>>
>> Artur Karp
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>> ???????????????????
>> Christophe Vielle <http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle>
>> Louvain-la-Neuve
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Jan  9 06:53:26 2016
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 16 23:53:26 -0700
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Manusm=E1=B9=9Bti_secondary_literature?=
In-Reply-To: <CAEjEOsBr9jD3pPLTRmOQ0zO=s8bDEPSA4u7m01Wi1O28K60PHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cf1ekinkG0b8zW6Zb=y2+ejxe6aYN0LthZmp6pMiv_5=Q@mail.gmail.com>

Can you indicate what sources you already know about?

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk* <http://ualberta.Academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
University of Alberta, Canada

On 5 January 2016 at 10:38, Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I am required to teach excerpts from the Manusm?ti for the first time. I
> have the overall secondary material I need, but I always like to ask around
> before teaching new topics: is there one article or book chapter on the
> Manusm?ti that you particularly appreciate, and perhaps like to assign to
> your students? It does not have to be something completely introductory or
> general; I am looking for any piece that you think makes for especially
> engaging reading.
>
> Many thanks, and all the best,
>      Antonia
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Jan  9 14:12:05 2016
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 16 09:12:05 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question about a Pali name
Message-ID: <CAB3-dze7CRfwX0tv+UsAiQGiDjBO3WsuVTvy+wH+njuwZEOdKQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

     In the Pali canonical literature, we come across the word "Mant?n?" as
the name of a Brahmin woman.  Her husband is "Gagga", which can be easily
traced to Sanskrit "Garga".  I have been wondering about the Sanskrit
counterpart of the name "Mant?n?".  If one assumes something like
"Mantr???" in (vernacular?) Sanskrit, that would correspond to Pali
"Mant?n?".  The other possibility I was thinking is if Skt. Maitr?ya?? may
be the counterpart for Pali "Mant?n?".   I am not sure about this
alternative, since Skt. "maitra" would correspond to Pali "metta".   The
Pali expression "Mant?n?putta" occurs as a characterization of two
individuals, i.e. A?gulim?la and A???ko??a??a.  If these twp figures appear
in Sanskrit Buddhist literature, there is a possibility of finding a
Buddhist Sanskrit expression corresponding to Pali "Mant?n?putta".  I would
appreciate any suggestions/explanations/conjectures.  Thanks in advance.

-- 
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From disimone at alumni.stanford.edu  Sat Jan  9 16:15:46 2016
From: disimone at alumni.stanford.edu (Charles DiSimone)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 16 17:15:46 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question about a Pali name
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dze7CRfwX0tv+UsAiQGiDjBO3WsuVTvy+wH+njuwZEOdKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADKD_zgnQiqJROyQ0_=5qUFGnvekxZYU4aYMsLqD84j4H8n0AA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Madhav,

I can't speak for A?gulim?la and A???ko??a??a but the name Maitr?ya??putra
occurs often in Buddhist Sanskrit texts as the name of the monk P?r?a
(Pu??a Mant???putta/Mant??iputta in Pali). Maybe that is helpful in some
way?

Best wishes,
Charlie

-- 
Charles DiSimone
Promotionsprogramm Buddhismus-Studien
Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Jan  9 16:31:17 2016
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 16 11:31:17 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question about a Pali name
In-Reply-To: <CADKD_zgnQiqJROyQ0_=5qUFGnvekxZYU4aYMsLqD84j4H8n0AA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcX2xLSHvFMeCEOr_-xYiVMpfR1xcEbDkfLFuW2i54dcw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks to several colleagues who responded to my question.  In spite of
irregular phonetic connection between Sanskrit Maitr?ya?? and Pali Mant?n?,
it is now clear that Sanskrit Buddhist texts use the expression
Maitr?ya??putra matching the Pali Mant?n?putta.

Madhav Deshpande

On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Charles DiSimone <
disimone at alumni.stanford.edu> wrote:

> Dear Madhav,
>
> I can't speak for A?gulim?la and A???ko??a??a but the name
> Maitr?ya??putra occurs often in Buddhist Sanskrit texts as the name of the
> monk P?r?a (Pu??a Mant???putta/Mant??iputta in Pali). Maybe that is helpful
> in some way?
>
> Best wishes,
> Charlie
>
> --
> Charles DiSimone
> Promotionsprogramm Buddhismus-Studien
> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen
>



-- 
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at  Sun Jan 10 10:59:17 2016
From: birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 16 11:59:17 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] FYI: Spoken Sanskrit blog entry plus discussion at	"Language Log"
Message-ID: <56923985.7000102@oeaw.ac.at>

FYI: Victor Mair posted an interesting entry on Spoken Sanskrit on the
weblog "Language Log" (that some of you might already follow):
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=23412

It's related to a recent workshop in Jerusalem ("A Lasting Vision:
Dandin?s Mirror in the World of Asian Letters"), and also includes
reports and reflections by some of the workshop participants.

With best regards,

Birgit Kellner

-------
Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Director
Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Apostelgasse 23
A-1030 Vienna / Austria
Phone: (+43-1) 51581 / 6420
Fax: (+43-1) 51581 / 6410





From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Sun Jan 10 11:36:12 2016
From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 16 12:36:12 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] FYI: Spoken Sanskrit blog entry plus discussion at "Language Log"
In-Reply-To: <56923985.7000102@oeaw.ac.at>
Message-ID: <5692422C.1020304@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

Inside that blog entry, see one statement made by David Shulman:


// Spoken Sanskrit uses the classical morphology (the verbal system 
perhaps somewhat reduced in its range), but its syntax often follows 
whatever spoken mother tongue the speaker uses. In this, however, it is 
continuous with medieval written Sanskrit which, despite what one reads 
in various primers and other works, is actually a left-branching 
language (like all other South Asian languages in the Dravidian and 
Indo-Iranian families), unlike Vedic, which is right-branching (like 
Greek, Latin, English, German, etc.).  Also, medieval Sanskrit has the 
same profusion of modal and aspectual forms that we find in other South 
Asian languages, although these forms have largely gone unnoticed by 
scholars trained in the old Indo-European paradigms. //

((David Shulman, inside "http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=23412")


That statement reminded me of earlier remarks, on INDOLOGY, concerning 
the features labeled "left-branching" and "right-branching", discussed 
in August 2015 on this list.

See for instance Hans Henrich Hock's message, dated 18th August
which started with:

"Let me add a few more cents? worth.
The idea that Indo-Aryan, including Sanskrit, fundamentally differs from 
Dravidian in its syntactic typology, though sanctioned by a certain 
?tradition? in South Asian linguistics, is problematic on several 
counts. [...]"

(("http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2015-August/041998.html"))

I, for one, would welcome seeing more pointers towards published literature

-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (in Paris)


"https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"

"https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"

"https://twitter.com/JLC1956"




On 10/01/2016 11:59, Birgit Kellner wrote:
> FYI: Victor Mair posted an interesting entry on Spoken Sanskrit on the
> weblog "Language Log" (that some of you might already follow):
> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=23412
>
> It's related to a recent workshop in Jerusalem ("A Lasting Vision:
> Dandin?s Mirror in the World of Asian Letters"), and also includes
> reports and reflections by some of the workshop participants.
>
> With best regards,
>
> Birgit Kellner
>
> -------
> Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
> Director
> Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
> Austrian Academy of Sciences
> Apostelgasse 23
> A-1030 Vienna / Austria
> Phone: (+43-1) 51581 / 6420
> Fax: (+43-1) 51581 / 6410
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>






From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Jan 10 12:02:18 2016
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 16 07:02:18 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] FYI: Spoken Sanskrit blog entry plus discussion at "Language Log"
In-Reply-To: <56923985.7000102@oeaw.ac.at>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfhroZo0qY9xH_vzcfujMjagSqQyv48NgVSaeirfBgG6g@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Birgit.  What a wonderful blog by Victor Mair.  Spoken Sanskrit in
its many varieties has always been alive in India, though only recently
being taken seriously as a subject of academic study in the West.  From the
stories of Kielhorn studying the Mah?bh??ya with Ananta Shastri Pendharkar
at the Deccan College in Pune to Ingalls studying Sanskrit texts with young
S.D. Joshi (before S.D. Joshi became his student at Harvard), there were
accounts of a few western scholars going to India and studying Sanskrit
with pandits using Sanskrit as the medium of instruction.  I have heard
from George Cardona the story of a Sanskrit pandit being woken up in the
middle of the night by his rivals for a debate in Banaras. Long before the
emergence of the movement of Samskrita Bharati, there was encouragement to
spoken Sanskrit in Pune when Ashok Aklujkar, Saroja Bhate and myself were
students at institutions like the Tilak Maharashtra Vidyapitha and Sanskrit
Pathashala.  While colloquial forms of Sanskrit can be seen and heard in
meetings of Samskrita Bharati and All India Radio, perfectly fluent
Shastric Sanskrit can be experienced at forums like the Ganapati Vakyartha
Sabha organized by the Shankara monastery annually.  Now many of the audio
and video recordings of these sessions of Shastric debates in Sanskrit are
becoming available through YouTube.  Last year, at a workshop on Sanskrit
grammar organized by Jan Houben at Pondichery, I participated in
discussions that were held in Sanskrit.  Having some exposure to spoken
Sanskrit makes the experience of reading Sanskrit texts qualitatively
different, because in many texts like the Mah?bh??ya of Pata?jali, ?abara's
M?m??s?s?trabh??ya or ?a?kara's Brahmas?trabh??ya, we almost have
recordings of spoken debates.  Having participated in Sanskrit dramas on
stage in Pune, I remember how my understanding of those dramas changed when
I had to verbalize them on stage, and how different intonations of the same
sentence might bring out different nuances. Some years ago, I was thrilled
to have the opportunity to give a talk in Sanskrit at Heidelberg during
their summer course in spoken Sanskrit. I am glad to see a serious interest
emerging in spoken Sanskrit within western academics.  Best,

Madhav Deshpande

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 5:59 AM, Birgit Kellner <birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at>
wrote:

> FYI: Victor Mair posted an interesting entry on Spoken Sanskrit on the
> weblog "Language Log" (that some of you might already follow):
> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=23412
>
> It's related to a recent workshop in Jerusalem ("A Lasting Vision:
> Dandin?s Mirror in the World of Asian Letters"), and also includes
> reports and reflections by some of the workshop participants.
>
> With best regards,
>
> Birgit Kellner
>
> -------
> Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
> Director
> Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
> Austrian Academy of Sciences
> Apostelgasse 23
> A-1030 Vienna / Austria
> Phone: (+43-1) 51581 / 6420
> Fax: (+43-1) 51581 / 6410
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)




-- 
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz  Sun Jan 10 13:18:07 2016
From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (Lubomir Ondracka)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 16 14:18:07 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] amrita
In-Reply-To: <FF6A6811-A789-4502-8691-34E53E10050D@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <20160110141807.9d31ee4964736e37a585c7f8@ff.cuni.cz>

Dear Artur,

one of the early and clear example of the struggle for am?ta between devas and asuras is K??hakasa?hit? 37.14, translated by Wendy Doniger in her Hindu Myths (Penguin 1975, p. 281 + see parallel passages and relevant secondary literature on pp. 280-281).

Demon ?u??a holds am?ta in his mouth so he can restore dead asuras back to life by breathing at them, while devas killed by asuras remain dead. Indra managed to steal am?ta from ?u??a's mouth. The text really uses the word am?ta (not soma): dev?? ca asur?? ca sa?yatt? ?sann asure?u tarhy am?tam ?s?c chu??e d?nave...

Best,
Lubom?r


On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 09:37:24 +0100
Christophe Vielle <christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote:

> Dear Arthur,
> did you look at :
> ? Jarl Charpentier, Die Supar?asage. Untersuchungen zur altindischen Literatur- und Sagengeschichte, Uppsala: ?. ?. Akademiska Bokhandeln - Leipzig: Otto Harrassowitz, 1922, in-8?, 399 pp.
> on the legend of Supar?a stealing the soma/am?ta according to the Supar??dhy?ya etc.
> Cf. review by P.E. Dumont: http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/rbph_0035-0818_1923_num_2_4_6264_t1_0713_0000_1
> Maybe also something to find on the "ambrosia cycle" in :
> ? Georges Dum?zil, Le Festin d'immortalit?. ?tude de mythologie compar?e indo-europ?enne, Paris, Annales du Mus?e Guimet, Biblioth?que d'?tudes 34.
> Best wishes,
> Christophe
> 
> Le 7 janv. 2016 ? 20:52, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> a ?crit :
> 
> > My heartfelt thanks to Lubomir, Dipak and George for their comments and suggestions.
> > 
> > However,  there is a however: I am especially interested in any pre-Mahabharatic (if I may say so) mentions of amrita as an object of contention, strife - something that is, independently of its supposed material form (liquid, metal, plant), fought for, stolen, divided, distributed, shared.
> > 
> > Thanks, once more,
> > 
> > Artur Karp
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> ???????????????????
> Christophe Vielle
> Louvain-la-Neuve
> 





From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au  Sun Jan 10 22:19:49 2016
From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 16 22:19:49 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] FYI: Spoken Sanskrit blog entry plus discussion at "Language Log"
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzfhroZo0qY9xH_vzcfujMjagSqQyv48NgVSaeirfBgG6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SIXPR06MB102388F82ED8BEB6BABB4A12AEC80@SIXPR06MB1023.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Colleagues


This seems like the perfect moment for one final plug - we can still squeeze one or two more folk into our Spoken Sanskrit Summer School, 7-19 Feburary 2016 on the south coast of New South Wales.


https://sites.google.com/site/spokensanskrit16/

[https://sites.google.com/site/spokensanskrit16/_/rsrc/1422500915117/home/class.jpg?height=150&width=200]<https://sites.google.com/site/spokensanskrit16/>

Australian Spoken Sanskrit Summer School 2016<https://sites.google.com/site/spokensanskrit16/>
sites.google.com




Please let your students and colleagues know.


Yours


McComas


________________________________
McComas Taylor, Associate Professor
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/

Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200


Spoken Sanskrit in three minutes?<https://vimeo.com/143211561> Go on. Try it!<https://vimeo.com/143211561>
<https://vimeo.com/143211561>

________________________________


________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 11:02 PM
To: birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at
Cc: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] FYI: Spoken Sanskrit blog entry plus discussion at "Language Log"


Thanks, Birgit.  What a wonderful blog by Victor Mair.  Spoken Sanskrit in its many varieties has always been alive in India, though only recently being taken seriously as a subject of academic study in the West.  From the stories of Kielhorn studying the Mah?bh??ya with Ananta Shastri Pendharkar at the Deccan College in Pune to Ingalls studying Sanskrit texts with young S.D. Joshi (before S.D. Joshi became his student at Harvard), there were accounts of a few western scholars going to India and studying Sanskrit with pandits using Sanskrit as the medium of instruction.  I have heard from George Cardona the story of a Sanskrit pandit being woken up in the middle of the night by his rivals for a debate in Banaras. Long before the emergence of the movement of Samskrita Bharati, there was encouragement to spoken Sanskrit in Pune when Ashok Aklujkar, Saroja Bhate and myself were students at institutions like the Tilak Maharashtra Vidyapitha and Sanskrit Pathashala.  While colloquial forms of Sanskrit can be seen and heard in meetings of Samskrita Bharati and All India Radio, perfectly fluent Shastric Sanskrit can be experienced at forums like the Ganapati Vakyartha Sabha organized by the Shankara monastery annually.  Now many of the audio and video recordings of these sessions of Shastric debates in Sanskrit are becoming available through YouTube.  Last year, at a workshop on Sanskrit grammar organized by Jan Houben at Pondichery, I participated in discussions that were held in Sanskrit.  Having some exposure to spoken Sanskrit makes the experience of reading Sanskrit texts qualitatively different, because in many texts like the Mah?bh??ya of Pata?jali, ?abara's M?m??s?s?trabh??ya or ?a?kara's Brahmas?trabh??ya, we almost have recordings of spoken debates.  Having participated in Sanskrit dramas on stage in Pune, I remember how my understanding of those dramas changed when I had to verbalize them on stage, and how different intonations of the same sentence might bring out different nuances. Some years ago, I was thrilled to have the opportunity to give a talk in Sanskrit at Heidelberg during their summer course in spoken Sanskrit. I am glad to see a serious interest emerging in spoken Sanskrit within western academics.  Best,

Madhav Deshpande

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 5:59 AM, Birgit Kellner <birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at<mailto:birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at>> wrote:
FYI: Victor Mair posted an interesting entry on Spoken Sanskrit on the
weblog "Language Log" (that some of you might already follow):
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=23412

It's related to a recent workshop in Jerusalem ("A Lasting Vision:
Dandin?s Mirror in the World of Asian Letters"), and also includes
reports and reflections by some of the workshop participants.

With best regards,

Birgit Kellner

-------
Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Director
Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Apostelgasse 23
A-1030 Vienna / Austria
Phone: (+43-1) 51581 / 6420<tel:%28%2B43-1%29%2051581%20%2F%206420>
Fax: (+43-1) 51581 / 6410<tel:%28%2B43-1%29%2051581%20%2F%206410>

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



--
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 03:27:12 2016
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 16 22:27:12 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ordering NGMCP manuscript copies in Germany
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQEyVpC5jEVopp5Z4G8i3J9UYTi6aiA=7DdK3WxV2=Ry_A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

The NGMCP website.  https://www2.uni-hamburg.de/ngmcp/none_e.html
states that manuscript copies are no longer available either in Kathmandu
or Germany.  Does any member have any information on when it will again be
possible to order manuscript copies in either Germany or Kathmandu.

Many thanks,
Harry Spier


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From michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de  Mon Jan 11 08:09:18 2016
From: michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Michaels, Axel)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 16 08:09:18 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ordering NGMCP manuscript copies in Germany
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQEyVpC5jEVopp5Z4G8i3J9UYTi6aiA=7DdK3WxV2=Ry_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D2B92073.4AF98%michaels@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de>

The situation is indeed not satisfying. Since the NGMCP and the Nepal Research Centre have been closed down last year, we are working on a solution for again supplying manuscript copies together with the National Archives Nepal through the South Asia Institute Branch Office in Kathmandu. We hope that this will be soon possible. For the time being you can only order such copies in Nepal or through a German colleague from the State Library Berlin.

Best regards,
Axel Michaels
Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels | Director Excellence Cluster "Asia and Europe in a Global Context"  | Director Dept. of Classical Indology, South Asia Institute  | Director Research Unit "Historical Documents of Nepal" of the Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities |Contact |Universit?t Heidelberg, S?dasien-Institut | Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, D-69120 Heidelberg |Tel. +49-6221-548917 / Fax +49-6221-546338 | sek-michaels at uni-heidelberg.de<https://exchange.uni-heidelberg.de/owa/redir.aspx?C=f1a10da1fac4416a98bc5b9c7fcac9d8&URL=mailto%3asek-michaels%40uni-heidelberg.de> (SAI office) | Axel.Michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de<https://exchange.uni-heidelberg.de/owa/redir.aspx?C=f1a10da1fac4416a98bc5b9c7fcac9d8&URL=mailto%3aAxel.Michaels%40urz.uni-heidelberg.de> (official and personal) | michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de<https://exchange.uni-heidelberg.de/owa/redir.aspx?C=f1a10da1fac4416a98bc5b9c7fcac9d8&URL=mailto%3amichaels%40asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de> (Cluster mail) | Websites | http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/de/startseite.html | http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/index.php | http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/forschungsstellen/nepal/projekt.de.html
New: Homo Ritualis. Hindu Ritual and Its Significance for Ritual Theory. Ney York/Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2016.


From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com<mailto:hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>>
Date: Monday, January 11, 2016 4:27 AM
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ordering NGMCP manuscript copies in Germany

Dear list members,

The NGMCP website.  https://www2.uni-hamburg.de/ngmcp/none_e.html
states that manuscript copies are no longer available either in Kathmandu or Germany.  Does any member have any information on when it will again be possible to order manuscript copies in either Germany or Kathmandu.

Many thanks,
Harry Spier


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From jacob at fabularasa.dk  Mon Jan 11 09:14:42 2016
From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 16 10:14:42 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] National Museum of Nepal
Message-ID: <9dd058347834491bc305242c7db27f2a@fabularasa.dk>

Dear list,

Does anybody know how to successfully contact the National Museum of 
Nepal in Kathmandu with enquiries about their art collections? The only 
email address I have been able to find is info at nationalmuseum.gov.np, 
and after several attempts I have yet to receive an answer.

Regards,
Jacob

Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
PhD Fellow (Indology)
Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
University of Copenhagen
Denmark





From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 10:47:11 2016
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 16 21:17:11 +1030
Subject: [INDOLOGY] FYI: Spoken Sanskrit blog entry plus discussion at "Language Log"
In-Reply-To: <5692422C.1020304@univ-paris-diderot.fr>
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrCJ4dMSq-XXEewvtmHTH0qXZkzb6cGLxL=ZfwrtCxzgsw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Jean-Luc,

After several years of wondering I finally found my way to the village of
Jhiri, Madhya Pradesh. Jhiri is one of the better known 'Sanskrit
villages'. It was during the deadly heatwave last April/May that I found
myself in the village with no running water or electricity sleeping on the
oven-like roof and bathing amongst the buffaloes. In this village I
recorded some footage and made a short film about non-??stric spoken
Sanskrit and code-switching. Here
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg> is the link. I intend to make
more films about Jhiri. Stay tuned.

I was inspired by this rather ambiguous media report that says
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHLIy-WHDew>  ?almost all the people
always converse in Sanskrit?. However, I can tell you that out of ~600
villagers I found only about 15-20 people who could hold a conversation in
Sanskrit in various domains. Many more were able to recite a memorised
Sanskrit sentence / salutation but were unable to hold a conversation
without prompting and/or translation. Regardless, this community of
predominantly Sondhiya Rajputs has intentions of transitioning to Sanskrit.
However, there are very interesting reasons as to why this project is
essentially failing/has failed.

The current superordinate language is Umawadi Malvi. Hindi is also spoken.
There are no first language speakers of Sanskrit in this village. We can
consider that Sanskrit in Jhiri is in a moribund state as there has been no
teaching of Sanskrit by the Samskrita Bharati teachers who were sent to the
village 10 years ago from the Bhopal office but they have not taught in the
past 5 years, even though they continue to live in the village.

The future of this language nest is in doubt. The community's elders are
slightly bemused at why the media has misrepresented them as a homogenous
group of fluent speakers. They are the first to admit this is not *yet* the
case. Still there was one particular individual who emphatically repeated
on several occasions that '*asm?ka? gr?me sarve jan?? sa?sk?ta? vadanti*'.
This attitude in itself is fascinating.

Of the many things that fascinate me about spoken Sanskrit, one thing I am
interested in concerns how Sanskrit is spoken from the perspective of 2nd
language acquisition. I am especially interested in how it mixes with the
substrate (1st/2nd) languages to create what we can consider a creoloid
(like Hinglish or Singlish). From a sociological perspective the linguistic
and cultural hegemony of Sanskrit fascinates me. The purifying puristic
prism within which Sanskrit is imprisoned affects the attitudes of
aspirational Sanskrit speakers. It is also the reason for its aesthetic
charm. The people in Jhiri regularly told me '*asm?ka? sa?sk?tam ati?uddha?
bhavi?yati'*. The main reason given for this attitude was that without
speaking Sanskrit in a 'pure' form the metaphysical benefits and
accumulation of *pu?ya* would remain unobtainable. They also felt that to
be a good *de?abhakta?* one ought to speak the *devabh???, *which
incidentally Samskrita Bharati package as the *janabh???, *while asserting
its final incarnation will be the next global lingua-franca or *vi?vabh???*
.

It is worthwhile mentioning that sociolinguists don't really think in terms
of 'grammatical errors' or 'purity' but instead see instances of imperfect
learning as signposts to understand the acquisition process itself. However,I
can understand and appreciate the position of individuals more focused on
their soteriological and patriotic aims.

While the 'pure' yet simplified register (dialect?) of Sanskrit promoted by
Samskrita Bharati is embedded in a quest for national unity and pride,
moral rectitude and a cultural renaissance with global aspirations for
India to become the *vi?vaguru*; how, why and where Sanskrit is spoken
ought to be given more attention. Which is my intention.

###Shameless self promotion###

Having completed my PhD I'm now in the process of trying to find a
post-doctoral position and funding so I can return to India and conduct
extended multi-sited comparative ethnographic field work on non-shastric
communities of Sanskrit speakers across North India. I have a list of 16
potential field sites. Please contact me off list if you have any interest
in helping me with this fundamental part of the project. Here
<https://www.academia.edu/19566419/Post-doc_Research_Proposal> is a link to
a draft research proposal. I would be grateful for any constructive
feedback on how to make this project better.

Thank you ?


All the best,

Patrick McCartney

PhD Candidate
School of Culture, History & Language
College of the Asia-Pacific
The Australian National University
Canberra, Australia, 0200


Skype - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748



   - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
   <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
   - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
   <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg

<http://goog_371544488>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg

http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g

http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be



On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 10:06 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard <
jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:

> Inside that blog entry, see one statement made by David Shulman:
>
>
> // Spoken Sanskrit uses the classical morphology (the verbal system
> perhaps somewhat reduced in its range), but its syntax often follows
> whatever spoken mother tongue the speaker uses. In this, however, it is
> continuous with medieval written Sanskrit which, despite what one reads in
> various primers and other works, is actually a left-branching language
> (like all other South Asian languages in the Dravidian and Indo-Iranian
> families), unlike Vedic, which is right-branching (like Greek, Latin,
> English, German, etc.).  Also, medieval Sanskrit has the same profusion of
> modal and aspectual forms that we find in other South Asian languages,
> although these forms have largely gone unnoticed by scholars trained in the
> old Indo-European paradigms. //
>
> ((David Shulman, inside "http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=23412")
>
>
> That statement reminded me of earlier remarks, on INDOLOGY, concerning the
> features labeled "left-branching" and "right-branching", discussed in
> August 2015 on this list.
>
> See for instance Hans Henrich Hock's message, dated 18th August
> which started with:
>
> "Let me add a few more cents? worth.
> The idea that Indo-Aryan, including Sanskrit, fundamentally differs from
> Dravidian in its syntactic typology, though sanctioned by a certain
> ?tradition? in South Asian linguistics, is problematic on several counts.
> [...]"
>
> (("
> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2015-August/041998.html
> "))
>
> I, for one, would welcome seeing more pointers towards published literature
>
> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (in Paris)
>
>
> "https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"
>
> "https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"
>
> "https://twitter.com/JLC1956"
>
>
>
>
> On 10/01/2016 11:59, Birgit Kellner wrote:
>
>> FYI: Victor Mair posted an interesting entry on Spoken Sanskrit on the
>> weblog "Language Log" (that some of you might already follow):
>> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=23412
>>
>> It's related to a recent workshop in Jerusalem ("A Lasting Vision:
>> Dandin?s Mirror in the World of Asian Letters"), and also includes
>> reports and reflections by some of the workshop participants.
>>
>> With best regards,
>>
>> Birgit Kellner
>>
>> -------
>> Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
>> Director
>> Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
>> Austrian Academy of Sciences
>> Apostelgasse 23
>> A-1030 Vienna / Austria
>> Phone: (+43-1) 51581 / 6420
>> Fax: (+43-1) 51581 / 6410
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Mon Jan 11 11:21:20 2016
From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 16 12:21:20 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] FYI: Spoken Sanskrit blog entry plus discussion at "Language Log"
In-Reply-To: <CAEzwJrCJ4dMSq-XXEewvtmHTH0qXZkzb6cGLxL=ZfwrtCxzgsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56939030.70706@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

Dear Patrick,

thanks a lot for this very interesting account.

It helps building a precise mental linguistic global landscape,
concerning which the EARLIER blog by Victor Mair
("http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=14027"
/Sanskrit resurgent/, dated August 2014)
also provided one with a wealth of information,
further enriched by a multiplicity of insights
concerning "Literary Sinitic (Classical Chinese)".

As far as I am concerned,
it also helps me in clarifying my ideas
concerning what I nowadays tend to call the "Tamil TRIGLOSSIA"
(i.e. the Tamil diglossia, haunted by Classical Tamil)

My mother tongue being French,
you might of course need to normalize
(into ??stric English ...)
some of the tentative statements made by me ;-)

I believe I know what I am try to say, although my success is dependent 
on my grasp of the linguistic vehicle of the current Zeitgeist :-)

I tend to think that we live in interesting times,
being able to combine real travel opportunities (for instance to 
Shillong and other places) and virtual travel opportunities (for 
instance thanks to YouTube ...).

Best wishes for 2016

-- Jean-Luc (in Paris)


"https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"

"https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"

"https://twitter.com/JLC1956"



On 11/01/2016 11:47, patrick mccartney wrote:
> Dear Jean-Luc,
>
> After several years of wondering I finally found my way to the village
> of Jhiri, Madhya Pradesh. Jhiri is one of the better known 'Sanskrit
> villages'. It was during the deadly heatwave last April/May that I found
> myself in the village with no running water or electricity sleeping on
> the oven-like roof and bathing amongst the buffaloes. In this village I
> recorded some footage and made a short film about non-??stric spoken
> Sanskrit and code-switching. Here
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg> is the link. I intend to
> make more films about Jhiri. Stay tuned.
>
> I was inspired by this rather ambiguous media report that says
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHLIy-WHDew> ?almost all the people
> always converse in Sanskrit?. However, I can tell you that out of ~600
> villagers I found only about 15-20 people who could hold a conversation
> in Sanskrit in various domains. Many more were able to recite a
> memorised Sanskrit sentence / salutation but were unable to hold a
> conversation without prompting and/or translation. Regardless, this
> community of predominantly Sondhiya Rajputs has intentions of
> transitioning to Sanskrit. However, there are very interesting reasons
> as to why this project is essentially failing/has failed.
>
> The current superordinate language is Umawadi Malvi. Hindi is also
> spoken. There are no first language speakers of Sanskrit in this
> village. We can consider that Sanskrit in Jhiri is in a moribund state
> as there has been no teaching of Sanskrit by the Samskrita Bharati
> teachers who were sent to the village 10 years ago from the Bhopal
> office but they have not taught in the past 5 years, even though they
> continue to live in the village.
>
> The future of this language nest is in doubt. The community's elders are
> slightly bemused at why the media has misrepresented them as a
> homogenous group of fluent speakers. They are the first to admit this is
> not /yet/ the case. Still there was one particular individual who
> emphatically repeated on several occasions that '/asm?ka? gr?me sarve
> jan?? sa?sk?ta? vadanti/'. This attitude in itself is fascinating.
>
> Of the many things that fascinate me about spoken Sanskrit, one thing I
> am interested in concerns how Sanskrit is spoken from the perspective of
> 2nd language acquisition. I am especially interested in how it mixes
> with the substrate (1st/2nd) languages to create what we can consider a
> creoloid (like Hinglish or Singlish). From a sociological perspective
> the linguistic and cultural hegemony of Sanskrit fascinates me. The
> purifying puristic prism within which Sanskrit is imprisoned affects the
> attitudes of aspirational Sanskrit speakers. It is also the reason for
> its aesthetic charm. The people in Jhiri regularly told me '/asm?ka?
> sa?sk?tam ati?uddha? bhavi?yati'/. The main reason given for this
> attitude was that without speaking Sanskrit in a 'pure' form the
> metaphysical benefits and accumulation of /pu?ya/ would remain
> unobtainable. They also felt that to be a good /de?abhakta?/ one ought
> to speak the /devabh???, /which incidentally Samskrita Bharati package
> as the /janabh???, /while asserting its final incarnation will be the
> next global lingua-franca or /vi?vabh???/.
>
> It is worthwhile mentioning that sociolinguists don't really think in
> terms of 'grammatical errors' or 'purity' but instead see instances of
> imperfect learning as signposts to understand the acquisition process
> itself. However,I can understand and appreciate the position of
> individuals more focused on their soteriological and patriotic aims.
>
> While the 'pure' yet simplified register (dialect?) of Sanskrit promoted
> by Samskrita Bharati is embedded in a quest for national unity and
> pride, moral rectitude and a cultural renaissance with global
> aspirations for India to become the /vi?vaguru/; how, why and where
> Sanskrit is spoken ought to be given more attention. Which is my intention.
>
> ###Shameless self promotion###
>
> Having completed my PhD I'm now in the process of trying to find a
> post-doctoral position and funding so I can return to India and conduct
> extended multi-sited comparative ethnographic field work on non-shastric
> communities of Sanskrit speakers across North India. I have a list of 16
> potential field sites. Please contact me off list if you have any
> interest in helping me with this fundamental part of the project. Here
> <https://www.academia.edu/19566419/Post-doc_Research_Proposal> is a link
> to a draft research proposal. I would be grateful for any constructive
> feedback on how to make this project better.
>
> Thank you ?
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Patrick McCartney
>
> PhD Candidate
> School of Culture, History & Language
> College of the Asia-Pacific
> The Australian National University
> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>
>
> Skype - psdmccartney
> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 <tel:%2B61%20414%20954%20748>
>
>
>   * _https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile_
>   * _https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney_
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg
>
> <http://goog_371544488>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg
>
> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g
>
> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 10:06 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard
> <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr
> <mailto:jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr>> wrote:
>
>     Inside that blog entry, see one statement made by David Shulman:
>
>
>     // Spoken Sanskrit uses the classical morphology (the verbal system
>     perhaps somewhat reduced in its range), but its syntax often follows
>     whatever spoken mother tongue the speaker uses. In this, however, it
>     is continuous with medieval written Sanskrit which, despite what one
>     reads in various primers and other works, is actually a
>     left-branching language (like all other South Asian languages in the
>     Dravidian and Indo-Iranian families), unlike Vedic, which is
>     right-branching (like Greek, Latin, English, German, etc.).  Also,
>     medieval Sanskrit has the same profusion of modal and aspectual
>     forms that we find in other South Asian languages, although these
>     forms have largely gone unnoticed by scholars trained in the old
>     Indo-European paradigms. //
>
>     ((David Shulman, inside "http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=23412")
>
>
>     That statement reminded me of earlier remarks, on INDOLOGY,
>     concerning the features labeled "left-branching" and
>     "right-branching", discussed in August 2015 on this list.
>
>     See for instance Hans Henrich Hock's message, dated 18th August
>     which started with:
>
>     "Let me add a few more cents? worth.
>     The idea that Indo-Aryan, including Sanskrit, fundamentally differs
>     from Dravidian in its syntactic typology, though sanctioned by a
>     certain ?tradition? in South Asian linguistics, is problematic on
>     several counts. [...]"
>
>     (("http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2015-August/041998.html"))
>
>     I, for one, would welcome seeing more pointers towards published
>     literature
>
>     -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (in Paris)
>
>
>     "https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"
>
>     "https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"
>
>     "https://twitter.com/JLC1956"
>
>
>
>
>     On 10/01/2016 11:59, Birgit Kellner wrote:
>
>         FYI: Victor Mair posted an interesting entry on Spoken Sanskrit
>         on the
>         weblog "Language Log" (that some of you might already follow):
>         http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=23412
>
>         It's related to a recent workshop in Jerusalem ("A Lasting Vision:
>         Dandin?s Mirror in the World of Asian Letters"), and also includes
>         reports and reflections by some of the workshop participants.
>
>         With best regards,
>
>         Birgit Kellner
>
>         -------
>         Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
>         Director
>         Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
>         Austrian Academy of Sciences
>         Apostelgasse 23
>         A-1030 Vienna / Austria
>         Phone: (+43-1) 51581 / 6420 <tel:%28%2B43-1%29%2051581%20%2F%206420>
>         Fax: (+43-1) 51581 / 6410 <tel:%28%2B43-1%29%2051581%20%2F%206410>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         INDOLOGY mailing list
>         INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>         indology-owner at list.indology.info
>         <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the
>         list's managing committee)
>         http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>         options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     INDOLOGY mailing list
>     INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>     indology-owner at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's
>     managing committee)
>     http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>     options or unsubscribe)
>
>






From baums at lmu.de  Mon Jan 11 11:36:00 2016
From: baums at lmu.de (Stefan Baums)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 16 12:36:00 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question about a Pali name
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzcX2xLSHvFMeCEOr_-xYiVMpfR1xcEbDkfLFuW2i54dcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160111113600.GL5479@deepthought>

Dear Madhav,

> In spite of irregular phonetic connection between
> Sanskrit Maitr?ya?? and Pali Mant?n?, it is now
> clear that Sanskrit Buddhist texts use the
> expression Maitr?ya??putra matching the Pali
> Mant?n?putta.

that is certainly correct as an equivalence.
Phonetically, Mant?n?putta would appear to be
*Mantr?ya??putra, cf. P Moggal?na = Skt.
Maudgaly?yana with ??ya? > ??? in the same name
element.

All best,
Stefan

-- 
Dr. Stefan Baums
Institute for Indian and Tibetan Studies
Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich





From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Jan 11 14:10:52 2016
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 16 09:10:52 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question about a Pali name
In-Reply-To: <20160111113600.GL5479@deepthought>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzd3X-saSxUgQA6aEQneOcdjWjTqO1chcMaZt52SjdkCVA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Stefan.  That suggests that somewhere in the spectrum of MIA
dialects, "metta-" and "manta-" got mixed up.  "Mant?n?" in Pali seems, as
you say, to point to some vernacular Skt usage like "Mantr?ya??", which
does not occur in the standard layer of Sanskrit.

Madhav

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 6:36 AM, Stefan Baums <baums at lmu.de> wrote:

> Dear Madhav,
>
> > In spite of irregular phonetic connection between
> > Sanskrit Maitr?ya?? and Pali Mant?n?, it is now
> > clear that Sanskrit Buddhist texts use the
> > expression Maitr?ya??putra matching the Pali
> > Mant?n?putta.
>
> that is certainly correct as an equivalence.
> Phonetically, Mant?n?putta would appear to be
> *Mantr?ya??putra, cf. P Moggal?na = Skt.
> Maudgaly?yana with ??ya? > ??? in the same name
> element.
>
> All best,
> Stefan
>
> --
> Dr. Stefan Baums
> Institute for Indian and Tibetan Studies
> Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From john.darumadera at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 18:59:34 2016
From: john.darumadera at gmail.com (John Huntington)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 16 13:59:34 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] National Museum of Nepal
In-Reply-To: <9dd058347834491bc305242c7db27f2a@fabularasa.dk>
Message-ID: <CAGbyd23aJ=OV_SHJp0O5QbqVv4HKRWNZ8_5RiLyHA9vGBKgQ+g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Jacob,

Right the moment the main National Museum in  Chauni is probably busy with
Earthquake  damage. I have heard nothing about either the painting museum
or the wood museum.

Fortunately for you I have rather extensive photographs from both the
Chauni including the Buddhist wing, The bronze Museum in Patan and the
Painting museum and a few from the wood museum both in Bhaktapur.  If you
let me know what you are looking for perhaps I can help.

John

John C. Huntington, Professor Emeritus
Buddhist Art, Asian Numismatics,
Field and Object Art Photography
 john.darumadera at gmail.com


On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:14 AM, <jacob at fabularasa.dk> wrote:

> Dear list,
>
> Does anybody know how to successfully contact the National Museum of Nepal
> in Kathmandu with enquiries about their art collections? The only email
> address I have been able to find is info at nationalmuseum.gov.np, and after
> several attempts I have yet to receive an answer.
>
> Regards,
> Jacob
>
> Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
> PhD Fellow (Indology)
> Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
> University of Copenhagen
> Denmark
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From pma at rdorte.org  Tue Jan 12 17:43:11 2016
From: pma at rdorte.org (Patrick McAllister)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 16 18:43:11 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two student assistant positions in the SARIT project
Message-ID: <87vb6yy9qo.fsf@rdorte.org>

Dear colleagues,

please find attached an advertisement for two student assistant
positions.  If possible, please circulate it amongst students at your
institutes.



With best regards (and sorry for crossposting),

-- 
Patrick McAllister

long-term mail: pma at rdorte.org
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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 02:15:17 2016
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 16 19:15:17 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Stanley Insler's translation of the Rigveda?
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekbYvysw-VmYzatBvtYA4m7YcT1W_+7XCf1kdjd_jo-gBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekYZxLJWFSpehY3-TT3avtkNXtbfkbT9O=ACL0ABkx73vA@mail.gmail.com>

I was able to contact Stanley Insler directly about this, and I here post
his reply, with his permission:

"Owing to a variety of other commitments, I abandoned my efforts to
translate the RV about 20 years ago. The project then fell into the hands
of 2 of my former students, Prof. Stephanie Jamison (UCLA) and Prof. Joel
Brereton (UT Austin). They worked from scratch for 15 years (I didn't turn
over my work to them) and their translation was published by OUP (in 3
vols.) in June 2014. It is excellent in every aspect. I say this not
because it is the work of my students but because it is excellent."
"Sincerely,
   Stanley Insler"

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 10:59 AM, David and Nancy Reigle <dnreigle at gmail.com
> wrote:

> To anyone who may know,
>
>
> Frits Staal in the Preface to his monumental 1983 book, *Agni: The Vedic
> Ritual of the Fire Altar*, wrote (p. xxix): ?When the work was nearing
> completion, I learned that Professor Stanley Insler of Yale was translating
> the ?gveda and had completed nearly half of it.? Staal was able to include
> Insler?s translations of a number of ?gveda verses in this book. I always
> wondered what ever happened to Insler?s translation of the ?gveda,
> especially when I later learned of the (then) forthcoming (now published)
> translation by Stephanie Jamison and Joel Brereton, former students of his.
> Did Insler ever complete his translation? If not, will the completed
> portion ever be made available? I would think that the labor of a
> specialist like Stanley Insler is worth preserving and making available.
> For a text as difficult as the ?gveda, where there is no question of having
> a ?definitive? translation, this would take nothing away from the carefully
> made translation that Jamison and Brereton labored for many years to
> complete.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> David Reigle
>
> Colorado, U.S.A.
>


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From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au  Wed Jan 13 03:22:20 2016
From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 16 03:22:20 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Prof Insler
Message-ID: <SIXPR06MB102364A6896BF1E0D388C403AECB0@SIXPR06MB1023.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Here is a lovely citation for Prof. Insler - well worth reading


http://ling.yale.edu/insler-citation


McComas


________________________________
McComas Taylor, Associate Professor
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/

Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200


Spoken Sanskrit in three minutes?<https://vimeo.com/143211561> Go on. Try it!<https://vimeo.com/143211561>
<https://vimeo.com/143211561>

________________________________


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From adheesh1 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 18:23:51 2016
From: adheesh1 at gmail.com (Adheesh Sathaye)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 16 10:23:51 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Digital Textualities in South Asia: A Research Symposium	at UBC, March 4-5, 2016
Message-ID: <F29C2C2D-105C-4100-967A-E42FB4AB594F@gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues, 

It is my pleasure to announce our upcoming symposium at UBC on Digital Textualities in South Asia. Even if you are unable to make it to the actual event in Vancouver, we are hoping to have many sessions either live-streamed or otherwise accessible online, through our site at dtsa.ubcsanskrit.ca. Please don?t hesitate to be in touch with me for further details. 

All best wishes,
Adheesh
?
Adheesh Sathaye
Dept. of Asian Studies
University of British Columbia

????

Digital Textualities in South Asia: A Research Symposium at UBC
March 4-5, 2016, Asian Centre, 1871 West Mall, Vancouver BC V6T1Z2

How might new technologies help us preserve and make better sense of the vast but vulnerable textual cultures of the pre-digital age? The question is especially pertinent to the study of South Asia, which boasts some of the largest, oldest, and most diverse collections of premodern writings in the world, but which has also recently experienced breathtaking technological growth. This research symposium at UBC will bring together leading international scholars who are actively adopting and developing digital technologies for the study of South Asian textual cultures, in order to share insights, tools, and techniques, to propose broader research questions, and to chart future directions for collaborative inquiry.

Featured plenary speakers:

Peter Robinson (University of Saskatchewan)
?As We May Read: Audiences, Authors and Editors in the Digital Age? 
Friday, March 4, 6-8PM, Asian Centre Auditorium

John L. Bryant (Hofstra University)
?Translation Is Revision: Imagining a Digital Tool for Editing Translation as a Fluid Text? 
Saturday, March 5, 2-4PM, Asian Centre Auditorium

Symposium participants:

Dominik Wujastyk (Alberta), Philipp Maas (Vienna), Manan Ahmed (Columbia), Sean Pue (Michigan State), Stefan Baums (LM?, Munich), Andrew Ollett (Harvard), Wendy Phillips (UNAM, Mexico City), Adheesh Sathaye and Tim Bellefleur (UBC)

For further information, schedule, and resources, please see dtsa.ubcsanskrit.ca.

All sessions are free and open to the general public.

Made possible through the generous support of the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada, the UBC Faculty of Arts, the Departments of Asian Studies and English at UBC, the Museum of Anthropology, and the SFU/UBC Digital Humanities Salon.

????







From r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org  Wed Jan 13 22:08:41 2016
From: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org (Richard Mahoney)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 16 11:08:41 +1300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Interest> New Material for Indica et Buddhica	Scholiast
Message-ID: <5696CAE9.3020101@indica-et-buddhica.org>

Dear colleagues,

Scholiast is a resource for Buddhist studies research. It provides
bibliographic data on books and journals.


I am pleased to announce that since the release in November we have
included material on seven new journals:

* Japanese journal of religious studies (Nanzan Inst.)

* Journal of religious ethics (Florida State)

* Pal?orient: revue interdisciplinaire de pr?histoire et de
protohistoire de du sud-ouest et de l'Asie centrale (CNRS)

* The journal of aesthetics and art criticism (American Soc. for
Aesthetics)

* Journal of Asian history (T?bingen)

* Die Welt des Orients (Mainz / Berlin)

* Zeitschrift f?r vergleichende Sprachforschung auf dem Gebiete der
indogermanischen Sprachen &c.


Scholiast is currently holding 196,135 records:

Scholiast - Journal coverage
http://indica-et-buddhica.org/scholia-scholiast/scholiast-periodicals-available


If you edit a journal containing Buddhist studies material and would
like your publication included please feel free to contact me:

  r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org


Indica et Buddhica Scholiast
http://indica-et-buddhica.org/scholia-scholiast/scholiast



Kind regards,

 Richard




-- 
Richard Mahoney

Littledene  Bay Road  Oxford 7430  NZ
M: +64-21-064-0216  T: +64-3-312-1699
r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org








From nmisra at gmail.com  Thu Jan 14 05:19:19 2016
From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 16 10:49:19 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_Third_edition_of_=E2=80=98Mah=C4=81v=C4=ABr=C4=AB_Vy=C4=81khy=C4=81=E2=80=99_on_=E2=80=98Hanum=C4=81n-C=C4=81l=C4=ABs=C4=81=E2=80=99?=
Message-ID: <CAATk=rCdg6_apJfczNLhsP+iegq5GkVFNXocF0mh8RWNQ2Y6zw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

Please pass this on to those who may be interested.

The third edition of the Hindi commentary *Mah?v?r?* on the
*Hanum?n-C?l?s?* has
been recently published and will be released today. The book details follow
below.

*Book Details*
Title: ???????????-?????????????? ????????
Title in IAST: *?r?hanum?n-C?l?s??Mah?v?r? Vy?khy?*
Description: Third edition of the *Mah?v?r?* commentary by Sv?m?
R?mabhadrac?rya on the *Hanum?n-C?l?s?*. Originally authored in one day in
the year 1983, the *Mah?v?r?* commentary was acclaimed as the ?best
explanation of the *Hanum?n-C?l?s?*? by Dr. Ram Chandra Prasad in his
dual-language translation of the *R?macaritam?nasa* (Delhi: Motilal
Banarsidass, ISBN 978-81-208-0443-2, p. 849, footnote 1). The book offers
meanings of specific words, translation, and commentary for all the 43
verses of the *Hanum?n-C?l?s?*. The third edition is newly typeset in
XeLaTeX using ChanakyaPro and Charis SIL fonts, and comes with three
appendices: a hemistich index, a word index, and the *?rat?* of Lord
Hanum?n.
Language: Hindi
Author: Padma Vibhushan Jagadguru R?m?nand?c?rya Sv?m? R?mabhadrac?rya
Editors: Dr. Ramadhar Sharma and Nityanand Misra
Book design: Nityanand Misra
Typesetting: Nityanand Misra
Cover art: Bhanwarlal Girdharilal Sharma (1924?2007), painter and exponent
of Rajasthan art
Publisher: Niraamaya Publishing, Mumbai
ISBN-13: 978-81-931144-1-4
ISBN-10: 81-931144-1-8
Book type: Paperback
Binding: Perfect binding with section sewing
Book size: Metric demy 8vo (138 mm x 216 mm)
Number of pages: 104 (x + 94)
Number of plates: One
Inside paper: 80 gsm acid-free natural shade maplitho paper
Cover paper: 300 gsm Sinar art paper
Plate paper: 170 gsm Sinar art paper
Finishing: Matte thermal lamination on outside cover
Weight: Approx 150 grams
Price: INR 120 in India, USD 4 outside India (excluding shipping) The book
will be available at a special discounted price of INR 50 at Prem Nagar
Ashram, Haridwar, till January 20.

*Sample pages*
Preview: Click here <http://npsbooks.com/hcmhindiflip/>
Downloadable PDF: Click here
<http://npsbooks.com/upload/2016_SR_HCMV_sample.pdf> and see attached

*Availability in India*
Offline: The book is being distributed by India Book House and will be
available at major Hindi bookstores in big cities of India by mid-February.
Online: Available from Amazon India <http://www.amazon.in/dp/8193114418>
 and the publisher <http://www.npsbooks.com/mahavirihindi>

*Availability outside India*
As of now, there are no plans for the book to be made available in
bookstores outside India. Readers can get in touch with the publisher to
order online.

Thanks, Nityanand

-- 
Nity?nanda Mi?ra


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From hegartyjm at googlemail.com  Thu Jan 14 12:17:52 2016
From: hegartyjm at googlemail.com (James Hegarty)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 16 12:17:52 +0000
Subject: Early Evidence of Christianity in India
Message-ID: <0927784D-56BD-4B21-BEF8-83EDE7B9F76E@googlemail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

I am currently working on Christianity?s presence in first millennium South Asia for an article for a new, rather inclusive, companion to Late Antiquity.

I am familiar with the patristic sources and, of course, the Acts of Thomas.

I am concerned to track down evidence on the Indic side (such as the famous  ?stone cross inscriptions? or the copper plates of king Ven???).

Can anyone help me to make sure I have not missed anything important? 

With Thanks,

James Hegarty
Cardiff University




From andreaacri at mac.com  Thu Jan 14 12:37:26 2016
From: andreaacri at mac.com (Andrea Acri)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 16 18:07:26 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request
Message-ID: <etPan.569796c2.4b1285e8.102@Andreas-MacBook-Pro.local>

Dear List

I am looking for a soft copy of

?India seen from the East : Indian and indigenous cults in Champa / [by] Paul Mus ; translated from the French by I.W. Mabbett ; edited by I.W. Mabbett and D.P. Chandler.?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Best,

Andrea

--?
Andrea Acri
Sent with Airmail


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From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 05:51:17 2016
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 16 16:21:17 +1030
Subject: [INDOLOGY] The battle for Sanskrit
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrAL8iG36QxPbqBciY+aLtqy5G11QVsVH7eaq5Prh1FYhw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

Has anyone had the opportunity to read Rajiv Malhotra's latest book?

http://thebattleforsanskrit.com/synopsis/

I'm curious to know what the '*new thrust* in Western Indology' is and
where/how it 'goes wrong'. [emphasis mine]




All the best,

Patrick McCartney

PhD Candidate
School of Culture, History & Language
College of the Asia-Pacific
The Australian National University
Canberra, Australia, 0200


Skype - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748



   - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
   <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
   - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
   <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg

<http://goog_371544488>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg

http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g

http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be


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From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 08:37:02 2016
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 16 19:07:02 +1030
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kittel's list
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrBnEcfMBwj0q3nBFtHeWjUhBAPTi2dEbeKu-_AL8qmAEg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

Is the list of 420 possible Dravidian loan words in Sanskrit that begins on
page XVII of Kittel's
<https://ia802606.us.archive.org/30/items/KittelKannadaEnglishDictionary/A_Kannada_English_Dictionary.pdf>
preface considered correct/reliable?




All the best,

Patrick McCartney

PhD Candidate
School of Culture, History & Language
College of the Asia-Pacific
The Australian National University
Canberra, Australia, 0200


Skype - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748



   - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
   <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
   - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
   <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg

<http://goog_371544488>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg

http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g

http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be


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From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 14:27:45 2016
From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 16 09:27:45 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kittel's list
In-Reply-To: <CAEzwJrBnEcfMBwj0q3nBFtHeWjUhBAPTi2dEbeKu-_AL8qmAEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOXgviq=Q6b3=drJzJNe5HpPX6V=_r-_OAi+LN7wqoEV3eENog@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 3:37 AM, patrick mccartney
<psdmccartney at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> Is the list of 420 possible Dravidian loan words in Sanskrit that begins on page XVII of Kittel's preface considered correct/reliable?


Dear Patrick,

There have been a lot of discussion since  the time Kittel wrote that
preface in 1894, and I must say there is still no consensus among the
linguists on how many Dravidian loan words (if any) can be found in
early Sanskrit. Burrow's Dravidian Studies VII (1948) includes a list
of 315 items from Sanskrit which he traces to Dravidian sources. Among
these he identifies 26 words as attested in Rigveda. Emeneau examined
in his "Linguistic prehistory of India" (1954) and submits a list of
13 early Sanskrit loan words with a detailed etymological discussion.

Kuiper identified about 383 words in RV as non-IE (1955, 1991) and
pointed out that these loans have certain typical prefixes and
suffixes unusual for Sanskrit. He also argued that the large number of
words have no Dravidian explanation and the substrate language may
have been Para-Munda, a western form of ancient Austro-Asiatic. Witzel
continues Kuiper's argument (1999a, 1999b) and carried out a detailed
study to argue that the Dravidian loan words started to enter the
Sanskrit language only in the middle and late Rigvedic periods.

In addition to Dravidian and Munda, work by Masica (1979) showed that
30% of Hindi agricultural vocabulary is neither Dravidian nor nor
Munda and attributed them to an unknown substrate language, dubbed as
"language X". Several volumes of "Aryan and Non-Aryan in India" edited
by Madhav Deshpande and others (1979, 1999) contain detailed
discussions on this topic, which so far proven to be intractable. As
you may discern, the answers to the linguistic prehistory of South
Asia are intricately tied to the riddle of the Indus script and
language which is still unresolved and hotly contested.

I have come to believe that the Dravidian languages are recent
entrants to the peninsular India (~3000 BCE cf. Southern Neolithic),
and many features and words currently considered Dravidian may perhaps
belong to a set of pre-Dravidian substratum languages (I call them
Ni??dic languages) of ancient India. However, I believe a detailed
study on the common features of Indian linguistic area, along with a
multidisciplinary study involving data from linguistics, archaeology
and genetics can only solve this enigmatic riddle satisfactorily.

Regards,
Suresh.
Atlanta, GA.

Burrow, Th. Some Dravidian words in Sanskrit. Transactions of the
Philological Society, 1945, 79-120
---, Loanwords in Sanskrit. Transactions of the Philological Society, 1946, 1-30
---, Dravidian Studies VII: Further Dravidian Words in Sanskrit.
Bulletin of the School of Oriental and
African Studies 12, 1947-48, 365-396
---, The Sanskrit language. London: Faber and Faber 1955
Kuiper, F.B. J., Proto-Munda words in Sanskrit. Amsterdam:
Noord-Hollandsche Uitgevers Maatschappij 1948
Kuiper, F.B. J., Rigvedic loan-words. In: O. Spies (ed.) Studia
Indologica. Festschrift f?r Willibald Kirfel zur Vollendung seines 70.
Lebensjahres. Bonn: Orientalisches Seminar 1955.
---, Aryans in the Rigveda, Amsterdam-Atlanta: Rodopi 1991
---, On a Hunt for 'Possible' Objections. IIJ 38, 1995, 239-247
Emeneau, M. B. India as a linguistic area. Language 32, 1956, 3-16
Witzel, Michael 1999a Substrate languages in Old Indo-Aryan.
Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 5: 1?67.
Witzel, Michael 1999b Early sources for South Asian substrate
languages. Mother Tongue Special Issue October 1999: 1?70.





From glhart at berkeley.edu  Fri Jan 15 15:37:55 2016
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 16 07:37:55 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kittel's list
In-Reply-To: <CAOXgviq=Q6b3=drJzJNe5HpPX6V=_r-_OAi+LN7wqoEV3eENog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <369B0F30-6B89-42E3-B4CA-8FC85022BB51@berkeley.edu>

I?d note that there are some important old words in Sanskrit and Tamil that seem to have no satisfactory etymology in either language. Two I have noticed are k?la / k?lam and k?ma / k?mam. Of course it is impossible to generalize from two words ? we don?t have enough data ? but it would be interesting to take the ?ni??dic? words in Hindi and see if there are Dravidian correlates. 

I?d ask Suresh why Tamil, the southernmost Dravidian language, is the most conservative. If Dravidian speakers had entered India (from the east?) and moved through a huge territory of ?Ni??dic? (and other?) speakers, one would expect Tamil to be far more changed from Proto-Dravidian than it is. George

> On Jan 15, 2016, at 6:27 AM, Suresh Kolichala <suresh.kolichala at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 3:37 AM, patrick mccartney
> <psdmccartney at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Friends,
>> 
>> Is the list of 420 possible Dravidian loan words in Sanskrit that begins on page XVII of Kittel's preface considered correct/reliable?
> 
> 
> Dear Patrick,
> 
> There have been a lot of discussion since  the time Kittel wrote that
> preface in 1894, and I must say there is still no consensus among the
> linguists on how many Dravidian loan words (if any) can be found in
> early Sanskrit. Burrow's Dravidian Studies VII (1948) includes a list
> of 315 items from Sanskrit which he traces to Dravidian sources. Among
> these he identifies 26 words as attested in Rigveda. Emeneau examined
> in his "Linguistic prehistory of India" (1954) and submits a list of
> 13 early Sanskrit loan words with a detailed etymological discussion.
> 
> Kuiper identified about 383 words in RV as non-IE (1955, 1991) and
> pointed out that these loans have certain typical prefixes and
> suffixes unusual for Sanskrit. He also argued that the large number of
> words have no Dravidian explanation and the substrate language may
> have been Para-Munda, a western form of ancient Austro-Asiatic. Witzel
> continues Kuiper's argument (1999a, 1999b) and carried out a detailed
> study to argue that the Dravidian loan words started to enter the
> Sanskrit language only in the middle and late Rigvedic periods.
> 
> In addition to Dravidian and Munda, work by Masica (1979) showed that
> 30% of Hindi agricultural vocabulary is neither Dravidian nor nor
> Munda and attributed them to an unknown substrate language, dubbed as
> "language X". Several volumes of "Aryan and Non-Aryan in India" edited
> by Madhav Deshpande and others (1979, 1999) contain detailed
> discussions on this topic, which so far proven to be intractable. As
> you may discern, the answers to the linguistic prehistory of South
> Asia are intricately tied to the riddle of the Indus script and
> language which is still unresolved and hotly contested.
> 
> I have come to believe that the Dravidian languages are recent
> entrants to the peninsular India (~3000 BCE cf. Southern Neolithic),
> and many features and words currently considered Dravidian may perhaps
> belong to a set of pre-Dravidian substratum languages (I call them
> Ni??dic languages) of ancient India. However, I believe a detailed
> study on the common features of Indian linguistic area, along with a
> multidisciplinary study involving data from linguistics, archaeology
> and genetics can only solve this enigmatic riddle satisfactorily.
> 
> Regards,
> Suresh.
> Atlanta, GA.
> 
> Burrow, Th. Some Dravidian words in Sanskrit. Transactions of the
> Philological Society, 1945, 79-120
> ---, Loanwords in Sanskrit. Transactions of the Philological Society, 1946, 1-30
> ---, Dravidian Studies VII: Further Dravidian Words in Sanskrit.
> Bulletin of the School of Oriental and
> African Studies 12, 1947-48, 365-396
> ---, The Sanskrit language. London: Faber and Faber 1955
> Kuiper, F.B. J., Proto-Munda words in Sanskrit. Amsterdam:
> Noord-Hollandsche Uitgevers Maatschappij 1948
> Kuiper, F.B. J., Rigvedic loan-words. In: O. Spies (ed.) Studia
> Indologica. Festschrift f?r Willibald Kirfel zur Vollendung seines 70.
> Lebensjahres. Bonn: Orientalisches Seminar 1955.
> ---, Aryans in the Rigveda, Amsterdam-Atlanta: Rodopi 1991
> ---, On a Hunt for 'Possible' Objections. IIJ 38, 1995, 239-247
> Emeneau, M. B. India as a linguistic area. Language 32, 1956, 3-16
> Witzel, Michael 1999a Substrate languages in Old Indo-Aryan.
> Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 5: 1?67.
> Witzel, Michael 1999b Early sources for South Asian substrate
> languages. Mother Tongue Special Issue October 1999: 1?70.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)






From birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at  Fri Jan 15 15:43:09 2016
From: birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 16 16:43:09 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New indological publications from Vienna
Message-ID: <5699138D.8070304@oeaw.ac.at>

Dear colleagues,

the following volumes that were recently published by the Austrian
Academy of Sciences Press within the series "Beitr?ge zur Kultur- und
Geistesgeschichte Asiens" may be of interest to Indologists:

WALRAVENS, Hartmut; STACHE-WEISKE, Agnes: Anton Schiefner (1817?1879)
und seine indologischen Freunde. Seine Briefe an die Indologen Albrecht
Weber (1825?1901), Rudolf Roth (1821?1895) und William Dwight Whitney
(1827?1894) sowie den Indogermanisten Adalbert Kuhn (1812?1881)

MATHES, Klaus-Dieter: A fine Blend of Mah?mudr? and Madhyamaka.
Maitr?pa's Collection of Texts on Non-conceptual Realization (Amanasik?ra)

GRAHELI, Alessandro: History and Transmission of the Ny?yama?jar?.
Critical Edition of the Section on the Spho?a

HOLTEN PIND, Ole: Dign?ga's Philosophy of Language.
Pram??asamuccayav?tti V on any?poha, Part 1 und Part 2

Please visit the website of the Press for more detailed information, and
to order:

http://verlag.oeaw.ac.at/kategorie_162.ahtml

For review copies, please contact the AAS Press directly at
verlag at oeaw.ac.at .

With best regards,

Birgit Kellner

-- 
-------
Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Director
Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Apostelgasse 23
A-1030 Vienna / Austria
Phone: (+43-1) 51581 / 6420
Fax: (+43-1) 51581 / 6410





From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 17:09:02 2016
From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 16 12:09:02 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kittel's list
In-Reply-To: <369B0F30-6B89-42E3-B4CA-8FC85022BB51@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <CAOXgvipLjgV4MRt=Fn0xOqHaP2L_OzKyY_FUgeyv9ajhwREG4A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 10:37 AM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:
[...]
> I?d ask Suresh why Tamil, the southernmost Dravidian language, is the
most conservative. If Dravidian speakers
> had entered India (from the east?) and moved through a huge territory of
?Ni??dic? (and other?) speakers,
> one would expect Tamil to be far more changed from Proto-Dravidian than
it is. George

Thanks George for your question.

A simpler answer could be: for whatever socio-historical reasons, Tamil
became the earliest literary language among the Dravidian languages. A
literate society tends to be more conservative than a non-literate. As for
the question of why Kannada and Telugu languages are not found in early
Brahmi inscriptions,  unlike Telugu, as Karashima hypothesizes "Buddhists
who were in considerable numbers in both areas didn't care about the local
language, unlike Jains (who wrote grammar and texts in the local language
of Tamil)".

A contrarian answer is: it is a myth that Tamil is the most conservative
among the Dravidian languages. Several of the archaic phonological,
morpho-syntactic features found in North, Central and South-Central
languages are lacking in Tamil. For example, phonological evidence for /q/
[x], morpho-syntactic evidence for serial verbs, relative-correlative
structures without port-RC particles etc. (See Steever) are all found in
North Dravidian languages. Negative past formation found in Central and
South-Central languages (Ollari and Konda) are completely missing in Tamil
(past negatives are not found even in Cankattamil). In fact, the negative
conjugation of verbs has fallen out of use in modern Tamil, where negation
is expressed through compound verbs (e.g. vara m????n, p?rkkavillai instead
of k???? ?I do not see?). The copula verb man- 'to be' is replaced by ir-
'to be' in the South Dravidian languages. As you know, ir- 'to be' is not
found in South-Central, Central and North Dravidian languages. (ir- most
likely a local verb for 'to be'). I believe "the massive restructuring of
the verbal system" (as described by Steever in Analysis to Synthesis: The
Development of Complex Verb Morphology in the Dravidian Languages) in South
India might be a result of rapid transformation of pre-Dravidian
hunter-gatherer population through language shift as they attempt to merge
with the incoming 'Dravidian' community.

The genetic research is also corroborating the theory that the high castes
of Vellalas in Tamil Nadu, Vakkaligas and lingayats of Karnataka, Velama
and Reddis of Andhra show external Y-DNA haplogroups, coming from
North-West through Gujarat and Maharashtra, as well as through sea-faring.
The following diagram of domesticated cattle in India clearly shows that
the agro-pastoralism spread to south-India from North West.


?
I have more internal linguistic data that provides stronger evidence for an
external origin of the Dravidian languages, which I hope to document and
publish sometime this year.

Suresh.


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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Fri Jan 15 21:42:16 2016
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 16 15:42:16 -0600
Subject: Reconstructing Indus Curry!
Message-ID: <B31528C7-6BEF-42A1-AFEB-48C7E5F5B541@aol.com>

On this day of Pongal, here is a podcast reconstructing curry in Indus Valley civilization:-)

http://scroll.in/article/801753/podcast-the-mission-to-recreate-the-worlds-first-known-curry <http://scroll.in/article/801753/podcast-the-mission-to-recreate-the-worlds-first-known-curry>

Regards,
Palaniappan


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Sat Jan 16 15:55:34 2016
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 16 15:55:34 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kittel's list
In-Reply-To: <CAOXgvipLjgV4MRt=Fn0xOqHaP2L_OzKyY_FUgeyv9ajhwREG4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522CA52C8@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear list members,
If I read Suresh's arguments I should be very careful in insisting that Tamil represents the most archaic form of Dravidian.
As to the question how come that Tamil as the most southernmost Dravidian language is also the most conservative one, I wonder how the movement of the Drav. language(s) into new territory has taken place; or, was the first batch of people/speakers pushed on by those coming after them or overtaken? If pushed on, the first batch, that is, those who broke away first and thus speak the most conservative form of Drav., ended up at the very borders of the Drav. speaking area. Incidentally, if so, Tamil cannot hail from "the lost land Lemuria" (to use Sumathi Ramaswamy's words) and at the same time be the most conservative Drav. language. If I understand the followers of the Lemuria scenario correctly that honour would go the my own language, lying at the outermost, western fringe of the old world.
Kind regards, Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Suresh Kolichala [suresh.kolichala at gmail.com]
Verzonden: vrijdag 15 januari 2016 18:09
Aan: George Hart
CC: Indology List
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kittel's list



On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 10:37 AM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu<mailto:glhart at berkeley.edu>> wrote:
[...]
> I?d ask Suresh why Tamil, the southernmost Dravidian language, is the most conservative. If Dravidian speakers
> had entered India (from the east?) and moved through a huge territory of ?Ni??dic? (and other?) speakers,
> one would expect Tamil to be far more changed from Proto-Dravidian than it is. George

Thanks George for your question.

A simpler answer could be: for whatever socio-historical reasons, Tamil became the earliest literary language among the Dravidian languages. A literate society tends to be more conservative than a non-literate. As for the question of why Kannada and Telugu languages are not found in early Brahmi inscriptions,  unlike Telugu, as Karashima hypothesizes "Buddhists who were in considerable numbers in both areas didn't care about the local language, unlike Jains (who wrote grammar and texts in the local language of Tamil)".

A contrarian answer is: it is a myth that Tamil is the most conservative among the Dravidian languages. Several of the archaic phonological, morpho-syntactic features found in North, Central and South-Central languages are lacking in Tamil. For example, phonological evidence for /q/ [x], morpho-syntactic evidence for serial verbs, relative-correlative structures without port-RC particles etc. (See Steever) are all found in North Dravidian languages. Negative past formation found in Central and South-Central languages (Ollari and Konda) are completely missing in Tamil (past negatives are not found even in Cankattamil). In fact, the negative conjugation of verbs has fallen out of use in modern Tamil, where negation is expressed through compound verbs (e.g. vara m????n, p?rkkavillai instead of k???? ?I do not see?). The copula verb man- 'to be' is replaced by ir- 'to be' in the South Dravidian languages. As you know, ir- 'to be' is not found in South-Central, Central and North Dravidian languages. (ir- most likely a local verb for 'to be'). I believe "the massive restructuring of the verbal system" (as described by Steever in Analysis to Synthesis: The Development of Complex Verb Morphology in the Dravidian Languages) in South India might be a result of rapid transformation of pre-Dravidian hunter-gatherer population through language shift as they attempt to merge with the incoming 'Dravidian' community.

The genetic research is also corroborating the theory that the high castes of Vellalas in Tamil Nadu, Vakkaligas and lingayats of Karnataka, Velama and Reddis of Andhra show external Y-DNA haplogroups, coming from North-West through Gujarat and Maharashtra, as well as through sea-faring. The following diagram of domesticated cattle in India clearly shows that the agro-pastoralism spread to south-India from North West.

[cid:ii_ijfxs99w0_15246402b56d8778]
?
I have more internal linguistic data that provides stronger evidence for an external origin of the Dravidian languages, which I hope to document and publish sometime this year.

Suresh.


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 17:21:31 2016
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 16 18:21:31 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kittel's list
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522CA52C8@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoAFwHCw2m0HbjFQnEU-wsi4qzXqXP9Hd6TZ+g4WyP9uWA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Herman,
Your understanding of the Lemuria scenario would converge with the
conclusion of Johannes Goropius Becanus (also known as Jan van Gorp,
1519-1572) according to whom Dutch (Brabantic) was the language spoken in
Paradise because its words are shorter, hence older, than those of Latin,
Greek, Hebrew. Apparently he also succeeded to his own satisfaction and in
support of his thesis to identify and decipher the language of the Egyptian
hieroglyphs as Dutch (bibliographic information but *not* the proposed
sources: anet.ua.ac.be/wiki/hortus/Becanus  / sample pages:
http://www.cubra.nl/brabantslandschap/originesantwerpianaeedschilders.htm).
Best,
Jan



*Jan E.M. HOUBEN*

Directeur d??tudes

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

*?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques

CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

www.ephe.fr


On 16 January 2016 at 16:55, Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
wrote:

> Dear list members,
> If I read Suresh's arguments I should be very careful in insisting that
> Tamil represents the most archaic form of Dravidian.
> As to the question *how come* that Tamil as the most southernmost
> Dravidian language is also the most conservative one, I wonder how the
> movement of the Drav. language(s) into new territory has taken place; or,
> was the first batch of people/speakers pushed on by those coming after them
> or overtaken? If pushed on, the first batch, that is, those who broke away
> first and thus speak the most conservative form of Drav., ended up at the
> very borders of the Drav. speaking area. Incidentally, if so, Tamil cannot
> hail from "the lost land Lemuria" (to use Sumathi Ramaswamy's words) and at
> the same time be the most conservative Drav. language. If I understand the
> followers of the Lemuria scenario correctly that honour would go the my own
> language, lying at the outermost, western fringe of the old world.
> Kind regards, Herman
>
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com
> ------------------------------
> *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Suresh
> Kolichala [suresh.kolichala at gmail.com]
> *Verzonden:* vrijdag 15 januari 2016 18:09
> *Aan:* George Hart
> *CC:* Indology List
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Kittel's list
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 10:37 AM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:
> [...]
> > I?d ask Suresh why Tamil, the southernmost Dravidian language, is the
> most conservative. If Dravidian speakers
> > had entered India (from the east?) and moved through a huge territory of
> ?Ni??dic? (and other?) speakers,
> > one would expect Tamil to be far more changed from Proto-Dravidian than
> it is. George
>
> Thanks George for your question.
>
> A simpler answer could be: for whatever socio-historical reasons, Tamil
> became the earliest literary language among the Dravidian languages. A
> literate society tends to be more conservative than a non-literate. As for
> the question of why Kannada and Telugu languages are not found in early
> Brahmi inscriptions,  unlike Telugu, as Karashima hypothesizes "Buddhists
> who were in considerable numbers in both areas didn't care about the local
> language, unlike Jains (who wrote grammar and texts in the local language
> of Tamil)".
>
> A contrarian answer is: it is a myth that Tamil is the most conservative
> among the Dravidian languages. Several of the archaic phonological,
> morpho-syntactic features found in North, Central and South-Central
> languages are lacking in Tamil. For example, phonological evidence for /q/
> [x], morpho-syntactic evidence for serial verbs, relative-correlative
> structures without port-RC particles etc. (See Steever) are all found in
> North Dravidian languages. Negative past formation found in Central and
> South-Central languages (Ollari and Konda) are completely missing in Tamil
> (past negatives are not found even in Cankattamil). In fact, the negative
> conjugation of verbs has fallen out of use in modern Tamil, where negation
> is expressed through compound verbs (e.g. vara m????n, p?rkkavillai instead
> of k???? ?I do not see?). The copula verb man- 'to be' is replaced by ir-
> 'to be' in the South Dravidian languages. As you know, ir- 'to be' is not
> found in South-Central, Central and North Dravidian languages. (ir- most
> likely a local verb for 'to be'). I believe "the massive restructuring of
> the verbal system" (as described by Steever in Analysis to Synthesis: The
> Development of Complex Verb Morphology in the Dravidian Languages) in South
> India might be a result of rapid transformation of pre-Dravidian
> hunter-gatherer population through language shift as they attempt to merge
> with the incoming 'Dravidian' community.
>
> The genetic research is also corroborating the theory that the high castes
> of Vellalas in Tamil Nadu, Vakkaligas and lingayats of Karnataka, Velama
> and Reddis of Andhra show external Y-DNA haplogroups, coming from
> North-West through Gujarat and Maharashtra, as well as through sea-faring.
> The following diagram of domesticated cattle in India clearly shows that
> the agro-pastoralism spread to south-India from North West.
>
>
> ?
> I have more internal linguistic data that provides stronger evidence for
> an external origin of the Dravidian languages, which I hope to document and
> publish sometime this year.
>
> Suresh.
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 18:45:12 2016
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 16 11:45:12 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] namami.org
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcFBOL6rKvBJ5_XXfLw0aYXjRojv0LGcbZF=afuS-O3ow@mail.gmail.com>

It looks as if the National Mission for Manuscripts has lost the website
domain Namami.org, or failed to renew it as of yesterday.  Whois
<https://www.whois.net/> reports that the website is now registered to
someone in Queensland.

I sincerely hope this will be fixed soon.  :-(

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk* <http://ualberta.Academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
University of Alberta, Canada


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sat Jan 16 21:26:51 2016
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 16 21:26:51 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] namami.org
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CcFBOL6rKvBJ5_XXfLw0aYXjRojv0LGcbZF=afuS-O3ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047B3AC5B@xm-mbx-04-prod>

Dear Dominik,

Though I can shed no light on the question of the internet domain in particular,
When I tried to contact Namami when I was in New Delhi last November I found
them to be in total disarray. They have lacked a director for some time, it seems,
and their entire situation was on almost every level unclear.

Really too bad.

all best,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jan 17 04:48:59 2016
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 16 21:48:59 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New indological publications from Vienna
In-Reply-To: <5699138D.8070304@oeaw.ac.at>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cc779LutBWY6tzvZLLdeRJss370weg33ptaABr=JhjwZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Birgit,

I've been trying to buy a new book that you mentioned, but the OEAW website
isn't working, as far as I can see.  I got as far as "confirmation" but
then there's no button to make the payment and complete the purchase.

I'm writing this to you, because I tried using the OEAW website's "Contact"
page, and that doesn't work either.  You press "send" and nothing happens.
I'm cc'ing the list in case others had trouble too.

Warm regards from deep Canadian winter,
Dominik
?


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Jan 18 20:08:48 2016
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 16 13:08:48 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] namami.org
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CcFBOL6rKvBJ5_XXfLw0aYXjRojv0LGcbZF=afuS-O3ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cea-UkoHQo9bhzppiqp-RFL+E=hdbuBOM13TEDGSZNU1w@mail.gmail.com>

I'm delighted to report that Namami.org is back!
DW
?


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From rajam at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 19 02:42:32 2016
From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 16 18:42:32 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Reconstructing Indus Curry!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.499.1452894191.3503.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <99D320A6-EDE9-435B-90E7-2D3E535B3C28@earthlink.net>

Quite interesting! I wonder if the discussants knew the origin of the word ?curry (???),? and that it is Tamil. Thereupon they may change their direction!

In any case ?

I?ve always wondered about the similarities between the generous use of turmeric in Punjabi & Tamil cuisines. Also, Taro roots which are also referred to as ?arbi? and ?c?ppa?ki?a?ku (??????????????/??????)? are common in both cuisines.

Thanks and regards,
rajam

[I wish I had pursued the socio-anthro route for my Ph.D! ;-) ]


> On Jan 15, 2016, at 1:43 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at aol.com>
> Date: January 15, 2016 at 1:42:16 PM PST
> Subject: Reconstructing Indus Curry!
> To: Indologylist <Indology at list.indology.info>
> 
> 
> On this day of Pongal, here is a podcast reconstructing curry in Indus Valley civilization:-)
> 
> http://scroll.in/article/801753/podcast-the-mission-to-recreate-the-worlds-first-known-curry <http://scroll.in/article/801753/podcast-the-mission-to-recreate-the-worlds-first-known-curry>
> 
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com  Tue Jan 19 12:03:10 2016
From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 16 07:03:10 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Reconstructing Indus Curry!
In-Reply-To: <99D320A6-EDE9-435B-90E7-2D3E535B3C28@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAOXgviqL7K6mJ96YBH7F80CQ8T_ccOnDNO=xanxrAiv0w0xbRA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 9:42 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Quite interesting! I wonder if the discussants knew the origin of the word
> ?curry (???),? and that it is Tamil. Thereupon they may change their
> direction!

Rajam,

What has European discovery of curry in South India in the last 500
years has anything to do with reconstructing Indus curry? Since Vasco
De Gama anchored off the South Indian coast (in 1498) from the east
coast of Africa, the early contacts of the European sailors and
colonizers were South Indian, and several native words from South
Indian languages went into Portuguese, Dutch and English. There are
words such as  ka?hi/ka?hi in several north Indian languages as well
and it is difficult to determine the origin of these common Indian
words (Hindi: ????, Rajasthani: ?????/????, Punjabi: ?????, Gujarati:
???,  Marathi: ???).

>
> In any case ?
>
> I?ve always wondered about the similarities between the generous use of
> turmeric in Punjabi & Tamil cuisines. Also, Taro roots which are also
> referred to as ?arbi? and ?c?ppa?ki?a?ku (??????????????/??????)? are common
> in both cuisines.

Turmeric and Taro roots are used throughout the subcontinent and are
not exclusively special to Panjabi and Tamil cuisines or cultures. The
use of turmeric in ritual rites, in cooking and traditional medicine
is found throughout India, including East India. Taro is a plant
believed to be native to Southeast Asia, The near-universal
distribution of this root in Austroasiatic suggests that taro played
an important role in its early expansion. It is also claimed that this
word is related to #traw? which is widespread in Austronesian. For
more details, see the nice summary of the linguistic research on this
plant by Roger Blench:

http://ir.minpaku.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/10502/4711/1/SES78_004.pdf

Suresh.





From birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at  Tue Jan 19 13:25:17 2016
From: birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 16 14:25:17 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New indological publications from Vienna
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cc779LutBWY6tzvZLLdeRJss370weg33ptaABr=JhjwZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <569E393D.4010401@oeaw.ac.at>

Dear colleagues,

the technical problems Dominik reported with the website of the Austrian 
Academy of Sciences Press have been resolved, I'm told. For your 
convenience, here is, again, the link to the recent relevant 
publications: http://verlag.oeaw.ac.at/Sachgebiete/Asienforschung

(In the unlikely event that problems should re-occur, please contact 
verlag at oeaw.ac.at.)

With best regards,

Birgit Kellner



Am 2016-01-17 um 05:48 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk:
> Dear Birgit,
>
> I've been trying to buy a new book that you mentioned, but the OEAW
> website isn't working, as far as I can see.  I got as far as
> "confirmation" but then there's no button to make the payment and
> complete the purchase.
>
> I'm writing this to you, because I tried using the OEAW website's
> "Contact" page, and that doesn't work either.  You press "send" and
> nothing happens.  I'm cc'ing the list in case others had trouble too.
>
> Warm regards from deep Canadian winter,
> Dominik
> ?

-- 
_____
Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Director
Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Apostelgasse 23
A-1030 Vienna / Austria
Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420
Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410





From rajam at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 19 16:55:54 2016
From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 16 08:55:54 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Reconstructing Indus Curry!
In-Reply-To: <CAOXgviqL7K6mJ96YBH7F80CQ8T_ccOnDNO=xanxrAiv0w0xbRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6CE503C3-717F-4BF9-BA36-C079E70B1753@earthlink.net>

Dear Suresh,

Thanks so much for the details. I?m learning.

I thought 

///Hindi: ????, Rajasthani: ?????/????, Punjabi: ?????, Gujarati:
> ???,  Marathi: ??? ///

all referred to some kind of buttermilk-based dish. No?

I?ll definitely take a look at Roger Blench?s work. I love taro. In fact I?m trying to grow it in a container. 

In any case, please know that I?m not into claiming/proving anything.

My expertise in any field other than Tamil is zero!! 

Thanks and regards,
rajam


> On Jan 19, 2016, at 4:03 AM, Suresh Kolichala <suresh.kolichala at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 9:42 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Quite interesting! I wonder if the discussants knew the origin of the word
>> ?curry (???),? and that it is Tamil. Thereupon they may change their
>> direction!
> 
> Rajam,
> 
> What has European discovery of curry in South India in the last 500
> years has anything to do with reconstructing Indus curry? Since Vasco
> De Gama anchored off the South Indian coast (in 1498) from the east
> coast of Africa, the early contacts of the European sailors and
> colonizers were South Indian, and several native words from South
> Indian languages went into Portuguese, Dutch and English. There are
> words such as  ka?hi/ka?hi in several north Indian languages as well
> and it is difficult to determine the origin of these common Indian
> words (Hindi: ????, Rajasthani: ?????/????, Punjabi: ?????, Gujarati:
> ???,  Marathi: ???).
> 
>> 
>> In any case ?
>> 
>> I?ve always wondered about the similarities between the generous use of
>> turmeric in Punjabi & Tamil cuisines. Also, Taro roots which are also
>> referred to as ?arbi? and ?c?ppa?ki?a?ku (??????????????/??????)? are common
>> in both cuisines.
> 
> Turmeric and Taro roots are used throughout the subcontinent and are
> not exclusively special to Panjabi and Tamil cuisines or cultures. The
> use of turmeric in ritual rites, in cooking and traditional medicine
> is found throughout India, including East India. Taro is a plant
> believed to be native to Southeast Asia, The near-universal
> distribution of this root in Austroasiatic suggests that taro played
> an important role in its early expansion. It is also claimed that this
> word is related to #traw? which is widespread in Austronesian. For
> more details, see the nice summary of the linguistic research on this
> plant by Roger Blench:
> 
> http://ir.minpaku.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/10502/4711/1/SES78_004.pdf
> 
> Suresh.



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From danbalogh at gmail.com  Tue Jan 19 19:09:49 2016
From: danbalogh at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Balogh_D=C3=A1niel?=)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 16 20:09:49 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Epigraphic Discoveries in East Pakistan
In-Reply-To: <6CE503C3-717F-4BF9-BA36-C079E70B1753@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <569E89FD.9040001@gmail.com>

Dear Members,
could someone provide me with a digital copy of Sircar's Epigraphic 
Discoveries in East Pakistan? The book is supposedly available on DLI, 
so if anyone has a saved copy, sharing it would not breach copyright any 
more than DLI has done. However, at least presently, dli.gov.in draws a 
blank when I try to access the book, while dli.ernet.in offers a pdf 
which begins downloading, but never finishes.
Thank you,
Daniel





From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Wed Jan 20 07:02:10 2016
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 16 12:32:10 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request - Sanskrita Sourabham
Message-ID: <CAODNnZh=TLyhca3xufExPXyeJ=jZ1gNimUcdYo=C0NNuD25xmw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all
I am searching for a book
Samskrita Saurabham(Sourabham) (Sowrabham) by Charudeva Shastri Published
in 1960s Meharchand Lachmandas New Delhi.

I have been informed that this book is no longer available to the
publishers themselves to reprint.
Please anyone help me to get the Pdf.

Thanks
Krishna Prasad


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From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Wed Jan 20 08:31:23 2016
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 16 08:31:23 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AUTHOUR OF BIGNYAPTI MATRA-SIDDHI
Message-ID: <20160120083123.21651.qmail@f4mail-235-140.rediffmail.com>

 To All,



           I am in a little bit of fix over the point that who actually wrote the Vigynbadi Buddhist Book 'Bignyapti Matra Siddhi. In a book wriiten by Dr.D.P.Chattopadhay ( I can't recall the name right now) ,it is stated thar BasuBandhu wrote Bignyapti Matra Siddhi -4th C.E.. While in another book entitled Bauddha Dharma o Sahitya ( Publisher-Mahabodhi Book Agency) by Sri P.C Bagchi , Hiuen-tsang , who studied Buddhism under ShilaVadra at Nalanda wrote the book Bigynpti -Matra Siddhi in Chinese ( which was later translated in French). It is well known Hiuen-Tsang came to India in 7th C.E.  Who actually wrote Vignyapti -Matra Siddhi.





                                                              ALAKENDU DAS  


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From e.demichelis at ymail.com  Wed Jan 20 12:45:45 2016
From: e.demichelis at ymail.com (Elizabeth De Michelis)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 16 12:45:45 +0000
Subject: London MA Buddhist Art: History and Conservation at the Courtauld	Institute of Art (scholarships available)
In-Reply-To: <1539594656.12735017.1453293945916.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1539594656.12735017.1453293945916.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Dear All,
I forward this from the H-Buddhism list as it may be of interest to some of you or some of your students.Apologies for any cross-posting.

With all good wishes,
Elizabeth De MichelisIndependent Scholar,http://modernyogaresearch.org/
19-21 May 2016 yoga?dar?ana,?yoga?s?dhana:?traditions, transmissions, transformations
An international?conference?at the JagiellonianUniversity, Krak?w, Poland
====================

PROGRAM> MA Buddhist Art: History and Conservation at the Courtauld Institute of Art, London (scholarships available)
by Giovanni VerriApplications are now open for the MA Buddhist Art: History and Conservation at the Courtauld Institute of Art, London, 2016-2017.The Courtauld is one of the leading centres in the world for education and research in history of art and conservation.This unique one-year MA is offered by The Robert H. N. Ho Family Foundation Centre for Buddhist Art and Conservation at The Courtauld. It combines teaching in the key tenets of Buddhism, the history of Buddhist art, and the making and conservation of Buddhist art. Taught by a wide range of specialists, it includes a field trip to conservation and management projects in Asia. Drawing on The Courtauld?s research and conservation work in Bhutan, China and India, this MA is specifically designed to equip students with:? knowledge of the central concepts and tenets of Buddhism, and their historical diffusion;? knowledge of the history of Buddhist art in its various religious, social, cultural and political contexts;? knowledge of the making of various types of Buddhist art;? knowledge of the approaches to the conservation of Buddhist art, and an understanding of the ethical, technical and administrative contexts;? on-site exposure to conservation and management projects on Buddhist art in Asia.?In this full-time, twelve-month course, teaching is mainly concentrated in three 11-week terms, but supervision of the dissertation continues during the summer months (June - September). Students undertake a dissertation which will consider an aspect of the original techniques, conservation, management, curating, history or use of Buddhist art.The MA provides a comprehensive grounding in the history of Buddhism, Buddhist art and its conservation both for those intending to pursue further specialist conservation education, and for others who wish to proceed into related fields such as art-historical research, curating, or site-management.About eight students are accepted and applicants from different academic and geographical backgrounds are encouraged to apply. Previous experience in the field is not required.TRAVEL AND ACCOMMODATION for field trips is provided by the Ho Centre for Buddhist Art and Conservation at the Courtauld.SCHOLARSHIPS: The Ho Centre offers a significant number of substantial scholarships for the MA, awarded on the basis of merit and need.Applications are due 17.00 GTM 16 February 2016.?For more information and to apply please visit??? <URL: http://courtauld.ac.uk/study/postgraduate/ma-buddhist-art-history-and-conservation>?The Courtauld Institute of ArtSomerset HouseStrandWC2R 0RN London UK


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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Wed Jan 20 14:55:40 2016
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 16 07:55:40 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AUTHOUR OF BIGNYAPTI MATRA-SIDDHI
In-Reply-To: <20160120083123.21651.qmail@f4mail-235-140.rediffmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekZL8NU787k65nuCc_od4Wzsg0KThAcb39yfetT6eu-DVQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Akalendu Das,

The Vij?apti-m?trat?-siddhi was written by Vasubandhu. There are two short
texts by him with this title. One is the Vij?apti-m?trat?-siddhi Vi??ik?,
in twenty verses, and one is the Vij?apti-m?trat?-siddhi Tri??ik?, in
thirty verses. Hs?an-tsang (Wade-Giles system) or Xuanzang (pinyin system)
wrote a commentary on the Vij?apti-m?trat?-siddhi Tri??ik? in Chinese, in
which he synthesized several Indian commentaries. So this commentary is
mostly translations from the various Sanskrit commentaries, put together by
Xuanzang. It favors the commentary by Dharmap?la. Xuanzang's teacher in
India, ??labhadra, had been a pupil of Dharmap?la. Xuanzang's Vij?apti-m?
trat?-siddhi translation/commentary became the basis of the Yog?c?ra school
of Buddhism in China. Because of its importance, it was chosen by Louis de
la Vall?e Poussin to translate into French.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 1:31 AM, alakendu das <
mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com> wrote:

> To All,
>
> I am in a little bit of fix over the point that who actually wrote the
> Vigynbadi Buddhist Book 'Bignyapti Matra Siddhi. In a book wriiten by
> Dr.D.P.Chattopadhay ( I can't recall the name right now) ,it is stated thar
> BasuBandhu wrote Bignyapti Matra Siddhi -4th C.E.. While in another book
> entitled Bauddha Dharma o Sahitya ( Publisher-Mahabodhi Book Agency) by Sri
> P.C Bagchi , Hiuen-tsang , who studied Buddhism under ShilaVadra at Nalanda
> wrote the book Bigynpti -Matra Siddhi in Chinese ( which was later
> translated in French). It is well known Hiuen-Tsang came to India in 7th
> C.E. Who actually wrote Vignyapti -Matra Siddhi.
>
>
> ALAKENDU DAS
>
> <https://sigads.rediff.com/RealMedia/ads/click_nx.ads/www.rediffmail.com/signatureline.htm at Middle?>
>
> Get your own *FREE* website, *FREE* domain & *FREE* mobile app with
> Company email.
> *Know More >*
> <http://track.rediff.com/click?url=___http://businessemail.rediff.com?sc_cid=sign-1-10-13___&cmp=host&lnk=sign-1-10-13&nsrv1=host>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu  Wed Jan 20 16:14:29 2016
From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 16 10:14:29 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Change of Address
Message-ID: <56947831-F7C1-4FBF-B4F5-83CBB2884B15@uts.cc.utexas.edu>

Dear All:

After 25 years, my old server is being taken to wherever dead servers are buried. So now I have to get a new email address. And here it is:

jpo at austin.utexas.edu

The messages to the old address will continue to be redirect to the new one for some time. With thanks and best wishes,

Patrick


Patrick Olivelle
Jacob and Frances Sanger Mossiker Chair in the Humanities
Professor of Sanskrit and Indian Religions
120 Inner Campus Dr. Stop G9300
University of Texas
Austin, TX 78712-1251
USA
Telephone: (512) 471-5811; FAX (512) 471-4469
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/depts/asianstudies/faculty/olivelle






From gthomgt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 20 19:40:10 2016
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 16 14:40:10 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] a recent review of the Jamison-Brereton RV translation	by Karen Thomson
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1ztJhaZS3tPNx3-mk1+M6xFZ0uiJd3-XnoPQwB-rbpXkdQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have recently received a pdf file of a strange petulant revew of the J-B
translation of the RV by Thomson in the Times Literary Supplement Jamuary 6
3026.

I have tried to attach this review to an email to Indology, but it failed.
Have others seen this  weird attack?

I will be happy to try to attach the review to individuals on the list.

This attack should be confronted.

George Thompson


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From slaje at kabelmail.de  Wed Jan 20 19:50:25 2016
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 16 20:50:25 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] a recent review of the Jamison-Brereton RV translation by Karen Thomson
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1ztJhaZS3tPNx3-mk1+M6xFZ0uiJd3-XnoPQwB-rbpXkdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nWuVDycq2dESoNcYr5GvXzpT7iB14Bkb3ukyVSdRtuaKg@mail.gmail.com>

Here is a link to the Times Literary Supplement for the convenience of the
literary connoisseur:
http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article1653094.ece

Regards,
WS

-----------------------------
Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
D-99425 Weimar
Deutschland

Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor
studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum
non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam,
sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus
humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat.
Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII.

2016-01-20 20:40 GMT+01:00 George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com>:

> I have recently received a pdf file of a strange petulant revew of the J-B
> translation of the RV by Thomson in the Times Literary Supplement Jamuary 6
> 3026.
>
> I have tried to attach this review to an email to Indology, but it
> failed.  Have others seen this  weird attack?
>
> I will be happy to try to attach the review to individuals on the list.
>
> This attack should be confronted.
>
> George Thompson
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 20 20:13:09 2016
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 16 15:13:09 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] a recent review of the Jamison-Brereton RV translation by Karen Thomson
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nWuVDycq2dESoNcYr5GvXzpT7iB14Bkb3ukyVSdRtuaKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zuizMpvMcU9SLDZjd8KhHH1zy6_GvWAgqX7NMTiu0-hLg@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you to Walter Slaje for correcting my typing errors and steering list
members to the correct page where this review can be found.

GT

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 2:50 PM, Walter Slaje <slaje at kabelmail.de> wrote:

> Here is a link to the Times Literary Supplement for the convenience of the
> literary connoisseur:
> http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article1653094.ece
>
> Regards,
> WS
>
> -----------------------------
> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
> D-99425 Weimar
> Deutschland
>
> Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor
> studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum
> non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam,
> sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus
> humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat.
> Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII.
>
> 2016-01-20 20:40 GMT+01:00 George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com>:
>
>> I have recently received a pdf file of a strange petulant revew of the
>> J-B translation of the RV by Thomson in the Times Literary Supplement
>> Jamuary 6 3026.
>>
>> I have tried to attach this review to an email to Indology, but it
>> failed.  Have others seen this  weird attack?
>>
>> I will be happy to try to attach the review to individuals on the list.
>>
>> This attack should be confronted.
>>
>> George Thompson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>


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From vjroebuck at btinternet.com  Thu Jan 21 07:46:19 2016
From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 16 07:46:19 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] STIMW 2016 Call For Papers
Message-ID: <8A5CD456-DBDA-42C1-B88F-26659A9D2E66@btinternet.com>

Dear Colleagues

I thought I had sent this to the list yesterday, but as it has not appeared there and there is no trace of it on my computer, I think that something may have gone wrong. Apologies if anyone has received it twice. 

Please send offers of papers or enquiries to Dr Suthren Hirst, not to me.


Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   

 STIMW
The Sanskrit Tradition in the Modern World


33rd Annual STIMW Symposium

Fri 27 May 2016 11am-5pm

University of Manchester

CALL FOR PAPERS

Offers of papers by 26 Feb 2016 please to
Dr Jacqueline Suthren Hirst

Religions and Theology, Samuel Alexander, 
University of Manchester,
Oxford Road, Manchester, M13 9PL
jacqueline.hirst at manchester.ac.uk 

STIMW offers a forum for the discussion of papers on varied aspects of Indian religions. Papers have been presented by leading scholars in the field as well as by research students.  Papers are sent to participants in advance, so that they can be read and discussed in detail.  They are available to those who cannot attend for a small charge.  

For further details, see http://www.arts.manchester.ac.uk/stimw <http://www.arts.manchester.ac.uk/stimw>

To join the mailing list, please email jacqueline.hirst at manchester.ac.uk <mailto:jacqueline.hirst at manchester.ac.uk>  



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From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 21 09:28:10 2016
From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 16 14:58:10 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Sulem=C4=81n/Sulaim=C4=81n/Suleim=C4=81n_Caritra_(=3F)_by_Kaly=C4=81=E1=B9=87a_Malla_(16th_CE)?=
Message-ID: <CAJz4T_4_CuruSBxA7ph+VGKP26G5xszP4MSg=k7rFu+vHRVQgg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

One of our students is looking forward to work on the
Sulem?n/Sulaim?n/Suleim?n Caritra (?) by Kaly??a Malla (16th CE). There is
a recent English translation by A.N.D Haksar published by Penguin India.

http://www.penguinbooksindia.com/en/node/4891.html

I am looking for its original Sanskrit text. A PDF would be really
appreciated. Would someone happen to have it?

Thanks very much in advance.

Mrinal

********************************
Mrinal Kaul
Manipal Centre for Philosophy and Humanities (MCPH)
Dr TMA Pai Planetarium Complex
Alevoor Road
Manipal, Udupi 576104
Karnataka, INDIA
*********************************
Tel: +91-820-2923567 (O)
Tel: +91-820-2574838 (R)
https://manipal.academia.edu/MrinalKaul
http://mcphcommunity.org
e-mail: mrinal.kaul at manipal.edu


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From svevo.donofrio at unibo.it  Thu Jan 21 23:24:43 2016
From: svevo.donofrio at unibo.it (Svevo D'Onofrio)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 16 00:24:43 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Sulem=C4=81n/Sulaim=C4=81n/Suleim=C4=81n_Caritra_(=3F)_by_Kaly=C4=81=E1=B9=87a_Malla_(16th_CE)?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJz4T_4_CuruSBxA7ph+VGKP26G5xszP4MSg=k7rFu+vHRVQgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C66A028C-C78A-4A0C-B6F5-521E93390FB3@unibo.it>

Dear Mrinal,

I have the original Sanskrit text in the print edition - I am about to use it for this year?s Sanskrit course in Bologna. 
I am currently abroad. In two weeks' time I can send you a scanned copy in pvt message.

Best,
Svevo D'Onofrio

----------------------
PhD, Adjunct Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature
University of Bologna
Department of History and Cultures
via Zamboni 33 - 40126 Bologna, Italy
Tel: +39 051 2098468
Email: svevo.donofrio at unibo.it

> Il giorno 21 gen 2016, alle ore 10:28, Mrinal Kaul <mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com> ha scritto:
> 
> Dear Friends,
> 
> One of our students is looking forward to work on the Sulem?n/Sulaim?n/Suleim?n Caritra (?) by Kaly??a Malla (16th CE). There is a recent English translation by A.N.D Haksar published by Penguin India.
> 
> http://www.penguinbooksindia.com/en/node/4891.html <http://www.penguinbooksindia.com/en/node/4891.html>
> 
> I am looking for its original Sanskrit text. A PDF would be really appreciated. Would someone happen to have it?
> 
> Thanks very much in advance.
> 
> Mrinal
> 
> ********************************
> Mrinal Kaul
> Manipal Centre for Philosophy and Humanities (MCPH)
> Dr TMA Pai Planetarium Complex
> Alevoor Road
> Manipal, Udupi 576104
> Karnataka, INDIA
> *********************************
> Tel: +91-820-2923567 (O)
> Tel: +91-820-2574838 (R)
> https://manipal.academia.edu/MrinalKaul <https://manipal.academia.edu/MrinalKaul>
> http://mcphcommunity.org <http://mcphcommunity.org/>
> e-mail: mrinal.kaul at manipal.edu <mailto:mrinal.kaul at manipal.edu>_______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Fri Jan 22 00:22:16 2016
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 16 19:22:16 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] a recent review of the Jamison-Brereton RV	translation by Karen Thomson
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1ztJhaZS3tPNx3-mk1+M6xFZ0uiJd3-XnoPQwB-rbpXkdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zux3z2=r_u_e8b=E=R1Yoxo+rKC8yrbi6svWnDWRym5kQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

I have been asked offline to take on the task of confronting Thomson's
views.  I will try to do so, briefly.

Her review is entitled "Speak for itself," which strikes me indeed as very
strange: Thomson here implies that the RV can 'speak for itself,' and
therefore that the extensive commentary of the JB translation [which
continues online among RV specialists today] is intrusive and unnecessary.
This dismissive approach to RV exegesis is astonishing to me.  I have spent
my entire career studying the RV, and in my experience of studying  it
within the context of the Indo-European Dichtersprache I have found no IE
text that is more difficult, or in more need of careful exegesis, than the
RV [except perhaps for Old Avestan, or Pindar...].  We can argue about
this, but to say that the RV can 'speak for itself' seems to me to be
naive, or perhaps full of hubris.

Thomson argues that JB have imposed their view of the RV as a wildly
obscene text based on their preconceptions, and not on the text of the RV
itself.  Again, I think that she is wrong about this.  Consider RV 1.179, a
dialogue between Agastya and Lopaamudraa, just as one example.

What she is trying to do here is to domesticate the RV and make it
compatible with her version of modern 'Vedic Hinduism, which is not really
Vedic.

The RV is a liturgical text.  It is also highly esoteric.  Consider the
cycle of hymns attributed to Diirghatamas [RV 1.140-164].  It is filled
with riddles and enigmas and brahmodyas.  His name itself tells us that he
intends to keep his audience in darkness.  We now, some 3000 years later,
cannot sit down with him to interrogate him about what meanings stand
behind his intentionally dark language.

I tell this to colleagues who are not Vedicists or who are not Indologists
but who are curious to know why I have invested so much time on the RV, so
remote and obscure:it is the RV''s remoteness and obscurity that attracts
me.  I take pleasure in examining its riddles.  I also take pleasure in
trying to translate it into a poetic and mysterious English.

Best wishes to all.

George

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 2:40 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have recently received a pdf file of a strange petulant revew of the J-B
> translation of the RV by Thomson in the Times Literary Supplement Jamuary 6
> 3026.
>
> I have tried to attach this review to an email to Indology, but it
> failed.  Have others seen this  weird attack?
>
> I will be happy to try to attach the review to individuals on the list.
>
> This attack should be confronted.
>
> George Thompson
>
>
>
>
>


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From hr at ivs.edu  Fri Jan 22 00:51:08 2016
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 16 16:51:08 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] a recent review of the Jamison-Brereton RV	translation by Karen Thomson
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zux3z2=r_u_e8b=E=R1Yoxo+rKC8yrbi6svWnDWRym5kQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48F15362-C8B4-43FB-8DA4-6528B9E8598F@ivs.edu>

Thank you for these comments. I agree with you regarding the fascinating, arcane nature of the text.

In reading and rereading Thomson?s article, despite its title, I did not get the impression that she claims the text is clearly and simply auto-revelatory, speaking for itself without exigesis. I don?t know if she wrote that title, or if she did, if is sarcastic or earnest.  

Indeed she seems to argue in various ways that the text was prematurely assumed to be comprehended based on unreliable, at times anachronistic interpretations. For example: ?Roberto Calasso vividly portrays the world of the Br?hma?as in Ardor. But he has been misled in one crucial respect: it is not the world of the Rigvedic poets.? Etc.

Nor does Thomson?s goal seem to be to prudishly domesticate the text, but rather to point out what she considers to be gratuitous eroticizing based on dubious translations, in one case of a hapax legomenon. She does not construct a general argument for a sexless RV.

Best wishes,
Howard



> On Jan 21, 2016, at 4:22 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear List,
> 
> I have been asked offline to take on the task of confronting Thomson's views.  I will try to do so, briefly.
> 
> Her review is entitled "Speak for itself," which strikes me indeed as very strange: Thomson here implies that the RV can 'speak for itself,' and therefore that the extensive commentary of the JB translation [which continues online among RV specialists today] is intrusive and unnecessary.  This dismissive approach to RV exegesis is astonishing to me.  I have spent my entire career studying the RV, and in my experience of studying  it within the context of the Indo-European Dichtersprache I have found no IE text that is more difficult, or in more need of careful exegesis, than the RV [except perhaps for Old Avestan, or Pindar...].  We can argue about this, but to say that the RV can 'speak for itself' seems to me to be naive, or perhaps full of hubris.  
> 
> Thomson argues that JB have imposed their view of the RV as a wildly obscene text based on their preconceptions, and not on the text of the RV itself.  Again, I think that she is wrong about this.  Consider RV 1.179, a dialogue between Agastya and Lopaamudraa, just as one example.
> 
> What she is trying to do here is to domesticate the RV and make it compatible with her version of modern 'Vedic Hinduism, which is not really Vedic. 
> 
> The RV is a liturgical text.  It is also highly esoteric.  Consider the cycle of hymns attributed to Diirghatamas [RV 1.140-164].  It is filled with riddles and enigmas and brahmodyas.  His name itself tells us that he intends to keep his audience in darkness.  We now, some 3000 years later, cannot sit down with him to interrogate him about what meanings stand behind his intentionally dark language.  
> 
> I tell this to colleagues who are not Vedicists or who are not Indologists but who are curious to know why I have invested so much time on the RV, so remote and obscure:it is the RV''s remoteness and obscurity that attracts me.  I take pleasure in examining its riddles.  I also take pleasure in trying to translate it into a poetic and mysterious English.
> 
> Best wishes to all.
> 
> George
> 
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 2:40 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com <mailto:gthomgt at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I have recently received a pdf file of a strange petulant revew of the J-B translation of the RV by Thomson in the Times Literary Supplement Jamuary 6 3026.
> 
> I have tried to attach this review to an email to Indology, but it failed.  Have others seen this  weird attack?  
> 
> I will be happy to try to attach the review to individuals on the list.  
> 
> This attack should be confronted.
> 
> George Thompson
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Fri Jan 22 03:06:53 2016
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 16 19:06:53 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] a recent review of the Jamison-Brereton RV	translation by Karen Thomson
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zux3z2=r_u_e8b=E=R1Yoxo+rKC8yrbi6svWnDWRym5kQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3E881949-5F6A-4B1E-AB6A-AA5DEB2BCC52@gmail.com>


> On Jan 21, 2016, at 4:22 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at GMAIL.COM> wrote: 
> 
> Dear List,
> 
> I have been asked offline to take on the task of confronting Thomson's views.  I will try to do so, briefly.
> 
> Her review is entitled "Speak for itself," which strikes me indeed as very strange: Thomson here implies that the RV can 'speak for itself,' and therefore that the extensive commentary of the JB translation [which continues online among RV specialists today] is intrusive and unnecessary.  This dismissive approach to RV exegesis is astonishing to me.  I have spent my entire career studying the RV, and in my experience of studying  it within the context of the Indo-European Dichtersprache I have found no IE text that is more difficult, or in more need of careful exegesis, than the RV [except perhaps for Old Avestan, or Pindar...].  We can argue about this, but to say that the RV can 'speak for itself' seems to me to be naive, or perhaps full of hubris.  
> 
> Thomson argues that JB have imposed their view of the RV as a wildly obscene text based on their preconceptions, and not on the text of the RV itself.  Again, I think that she is wrong about this.  Consider RV 1.179, a dialogue between Agastya and Lopaamudraa, just as one example.
> 
> What she is trying to do here is to domesticate the RV and make it compatible with her version of modern 'Vedic Hinduism, which is not really Vedic. 
> 
> The RV is a liturgical text.  It is also highly esoteric.  Consider the cycle of hymns attributed to Diirghatamas [RV 1.140-164].  It is filled with riddles and enigmas and brahmodyas.  His name itself tells us that he intends to keep his audience in darkness.  We now, some 3000 years later, cannot sit down with him to interrogate him about what meanings stand behind his intentionally dark language.  
> 
> I tell this to colleagues who are not Vedicists or who are not Indologists but who are curious to know why I have invested so much time on the RV, so remote and obscure:it is the RV''s remoteness and obscurity that attracts me.  I take pleasure in examining its riddles.  I also take pleasure in trying to translate it into a poetic and mysterious English.
> 
> Best wishes to all.
> 
> George
> 
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 2:40 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com <mailto:gthomgt at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I have recently received a pdf file of a strange petulant revew of the J-B translation of the RV by Thomson in the Times Literary Supplement Jamuary 6 3026.
> 
> I have tried to attach this review to an email to Indology, but it failed.  Have others seen this  weird attack?  
> 
> I will be happy to try to attach the review to individuals on the list.  
> 
> This attack should be confronted.
> 
> George Thompson
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Fri Jan 22 04:31:00 2016
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 16 20:31:00 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] a recent review of the Jamison-Brereton RV	translation by Karen Thomson
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zux3z2=r_u_e8b=E=R1Yoxo+rKC8yrbi6svWnDWRym5kQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2EAEBFC5-431A-402C-972E-3E4DE5915DE0@gmail.com>

Sorry, I seem to have reposted George Thomson?s post. 

a.a.




From asko.parpola at helsinki.fi  Fri Jan 22 07:14:04 2016
From: asko.parpola at helsinki.fi (asko.parpola at helsinki.fi)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 16 09:14:04 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] a recent review of the Jamison-Brereton RV translation by Karen Thomson
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zux3z2=r_u_e8b=E=R1Yoxo+rKC8yrbi6svWnDWRym5kQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160122091404.Horde.64reCmz6gqNi4hItbIpe2g1@webmail.helsinki.fi>

  Dear George, In 2009, the Journal of Indo-European Studies published a
longer article of Thomson's with
three brief comments and Thomson's reply. I'll send you offline the PDFs:

Thomson, Karen, 2009.? A still undeciphered text: How the scientific
appproach to the Rigveda would open up Indo-European Studies. The Journal
of Indo-European Studies 37 (1-2): 1-47.
Part 1. The problem and its history (p. 1). The outcome of the hermeneutic
approach (p. 7). The influence of the Veda (p. 11). Test cases: puro???
(p. 14). vak?a?? (p. 16). gr?van (p. 19). tiroahnyam (p. 20). The
process of disentanglement (p. 22).? Part 2. The evidence of the Rigveda
(p. 25).? Rigvedic ruins (p. 26). The meaning of the word samudra (p. 29).
"Did the Sarasvati* ever flow to the sea?" (Possehl 1998) (p. 30). The
Rigvedic chariot and the Rigvedic horse (p. 33). The need for a new
approach (p. 39). References (p. 42).?
Mumm, Peter-Arnold, 2009. Comment on "A still undeciphered text". The
Journal of Indo-European Studies 37 (1-2): 49-52.
Zimmer, Stefan, 2009. Hic Rhodus! A brief comment on Karen Thomson, A still
undeciphered text: how the scientific approach to the Rigveda would open up
Indo-European Studies. The Journal of Indo-European Studies 37 (1-2):
53-54.
Parpola, Asko, 2009. Interpreting the Rigveda: Comments on Karen Thomson's
approach. The Journal of Indo-European Studies 37 (1-2): 55-58.?
Thomson, Karen, 2009.? A still undeciphered tex, continued: the reply to
my critics. The Journal of Indo-European Studies 37 (1-2): 59-88.?

Best regards, Asko

Quoting George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com>:

> Dear List,
> ?
> I have been asked offline to take on the task of confronting Thomson's
> views.? I will try to do so, briefly.
> ?
> Her review is entitled "Speak for itself," which strikes me indeed as
> very strange: Thomson here implies that the RV can 'speak for itself,'
> and therefore that the extensive commentary of the JB translation [which
> continues online among RV specialists today] is intrusive and
> unnecessary.? This dismissive approach to RV exegesis is astonishing to
> me.? I have spent my entire career studying the RV, and in my experience
> of studying? it within the context of the Indo-European Dichtersprache I
> have found no IE text that is more difficult, or in more need of careful
> exegesis, than the RV [except perhaps for Old Avestan, or Pindar...].?
> We can argue about this, but to say that the RV can 'speak for itself'
> seems to me to be naive, or perhaps full of hubris.?
> ?
> Thomson argues that JB have imposed their view of the RV as a wildly
> obscene text based on their preconceptions, and not on the text of the
> RV itself.? Again, I think that she is wrong about this.? Consider RV
> 1.179, a dialogue between Agastya and Lopaamudraa, just as one example.
> ?
> What she is trying to do here is to domesticate the RV and make it
> compatible with her version of modern 'Vedic Hinduism, which is not
> really Vedic.
> ?
> The RV is a liturgical text.? It is also highly esoteric.? Consider the
> cycle of hymns attributed to Diirghatamas [RV 1.140-164].? It is filled
> with riddles and enigmas and brahmodyas.? His name itself tells us that
> he intends to keep his audience in darkness.? We now, some 3000 years
> later, cannot sit down with him to interrogate him about what meanings
> stand behind his intentionally dark language.?
> ?
> I tell this to colleagues who are not Vedicists or who are not
> Indologists but who are curious to know why I have invested so much time
> on the RV, so remote and obscure:it is the RV''s remoteness and
> obscurity that attracts me.? I take pleasure in examining its riddles.?
> I also take pleasure in trying to translate it into a poetic and
> mysterious English.
> ?
> Best wishes to all.
> ?
> George
>
>    On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 2:40 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I have recently received a pdf file of a strange petulant revew of the
>> J-B translation of the RV by Thomson in the Times Literary Supplement
>> Jamuary 6 3026.
>> ?
>> I have tried to attach this review to an email to Indology, but it
>> failed.? Have others seen this? weird attack??
>> ?
>> I will be happy to try to attach the review to individuals on the
list.?
>> ?
>> This attack should be confronted.
>> ?
>> George Thompson
>>
>>
>>
>> ?


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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Fri Jan 22 07:17:43 2016
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 16 07:17:43 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_v=C4=81rja_'lotus'?=
Message-ID: <DUB114-W421122D7B91F23B577CF8A5C40@phx.gbl>

Dear colleagues,

I seem to encounter the word v?rja in the meaning 'lotus' in an 8th-century Sanskrit inscription. I don't find any entry v?rja in the usual dictionaries. However, I do find it in Narahari's R?janigha??u (10.173):

p?thoja? kamala? nabha? ca nalin?mbhoj?mbujanm?mbuja? 
?r?padm?mburuh?bjapadmajalaj?ny ambhoruha? s?rasam |
pa?keja? saras?ruha? ca ku?apa? p?thoruha? pu?kara? 
v?rja? t?marasa? ku?e?ayakaje ka?j?ravinde tath? ||

This is from GRETIL: I am unable to check any printed edition. But the meter (??rd?lavikr??ita) seems to guarantee that v?rja? here is not a typo for v?rija? (on which, see Rau, 'Lotusblumen', 1954, p. 510). According to C. Vogel, Indian Lexicography (1979), pp. 376-7, this R?janigha??u would be no older than 1375.

Does anyone know a first-millennium attestation of v?rja- 'lotus'?

Is it more likely that we confront here a phonetic development from v?rija-, or the use of the Vedic stem v?r- in a post-Vedic compound v?r-ja-?

Thank you for any comments and further references.

Arlo Griffiths
?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient
Universit? de Lyon 3 ? Jean Moulin
 		 	   		  


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Fri Jan 22 08:45:51 2016
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 16 09:45:51 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_v=C4=81rja_'lotus'?=
In-Reply-To: <DUB114-W421122D7B91F23B577CF8A5C40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CCF3F82D-5A56-4610-887B-B9B6EB7320A6@uclouvain.be>

There is one occurrence in the Ra?ks?asaka?vya (of Ravideva) stanza 3cd :

abda? sit?bhir asita? ?abala? khag?bhir v?rjai? sitair iva vibh?ti vana? prabuddhai? |

(note that in stanza 14, v?rja? is also with the meaning of jalaja? but not for the lotus this time) 
 
On the pre-1000 AD date of the text, cf.
P. K. Gode,  "Date of Ra?ks?asa Ka?vya or Ka?vyara?ks?asa ? Before A.D. 1000", In: Studies in Indian Literary History vol. 1, pp. 195-202;
orig. publ. in Journal of Indian History, Madras, vol. 19/3, 1940 pp. 312-319
https://archive.org/details/StudiesInIndianLiteraryHistoryVolume1

+ Indology list in last October for more references.

Note that the va?r- stem, even if a bit archaic, is nor less classical than the use of n?- : both are given as paradigms in traditional manuals like the Siddhar?pam (cf. also in Hanxleden's Grammatic Grandonica) and also used in yamaka poems by V?sudeva (the possible son of Ravideva, both probably poets at the court of the Cera Perumals of Mahodayapuram in the 9th-10th centuries AD).

Best wishes,
Christophe


Le 22 janv. 2016 ? 08:17, Arlo Griffiths <arlogriffiths at hotmail.com> a ?crit :
Dear colleagues,

I seem to encounter the word v?rja in the meaning 'lotus' in an 8th-century Sanskrit inscription. I don't find any entry v?rja in the usual dictionaries. However, I do find it in Narahari's R?janigha??u (10.173):

p?thoja? kamala? nabha? ca nalin?mbhoj?mbujanm?mbuja? 
?r?padm?mburuh?bjapadmajalaj?ny ambhoruha? s?rasam |
pa?keja? saras?ruha? ca ku?apa? p?thoruha? pu?kara? 
v?rja? t?marasa? ku?e?ayakaje ka?j?ravinde tath? ||

This is from GRETIL: I am unable to check any printed edition. But the meter (??rd?lavikr??ita) seems to guarantee that v?rja? here is not a typo for v?rija? (on which, see Rau, 'Lotusblumen', 1954, p. 510). According to C. Vogel, Indian Lexicography (1979), pp. 376-7, this R?janigha??u would be no older than 1375.

Does anyone know a first-millennium attestation of v?rja- 'lotus'?

Is it more likely that we confront here a phonetic development from v?rija-, or the use of the Vedic stem v?r- in a post-Vedic compound v?r-ja-?

Thank you for any comments and further references.

Arlo Griffiths
?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient
Universit? de Lyon 3 ? Jean Moulin
???????????????????
Christophe Vielle
Louvain-la-Neuve



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From hr at ivs.edu  Fri Jan 22 15:22:50 2016
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 16 07:22:50 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] title
Message-ID: <9E97367B-4844-4D98-BF85-2594C9CE7F37@ivs.edu>

I have confirmed in a personal correspondence with Karen Thomson that she did not choose for her article the title ?Speak for Itself?. The editors extracted it from her quotation of Roth in the article:

"As Rudolph Roth wrote over a century ago, 'A translation must speak for itself. As a rule, it only requires a commentary where it is not directly convincing, and where the translator does not feel secure?.?

The context of this quotation, within the article, is an argument for ?decipherment? of, over ?commentary? on, the RV. 









From martin.gansten at pbhome.se  Fri Jan 22 15:45:45 2016
From: martin.gansten at pbhome.se (Martin Gansten)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 16 16:45:45 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ahigavi?
In-Reply-To: <20160122091404.Horde.64reCmz6gqNi4hItbIpe2g1@webmail.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <56A24EA9.4040905@pbhome.se>

In a panegyrical reference to his guru in the /H?yanaratna/, Balabhadra 
makes use of the word /ahigav?/:

/atha nat?d?n?m ?nayanam ukta? 
sakalasiddh?ntama??al?sarovihara?ar?jaha?saga?itavidy?c?tur?t?ntrikapa?c?nan?higav?prav??ai? 
?r?madgurucara?ai? paddhaticint?ma?au |//
/
I'm inclined to understand it simply to mean 'planet', but I can't find 
this particular compound anywhere else, so I can't be sure. In light of 
everything else going on in this compound (there's half a zoo in there), 
I'd be grateful for any suggestions from the vidv?ns on this list.

Martin Gansten



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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Sat Jan 23 03:06:26 2016
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 16 08:36:26 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ahigavi?
In-Reply-To: <56A24EA9.4040905@pbhome.se>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZgZukqe7eM4oaardjTG+72w_td5VjLc=f-Zqui5J7NOtw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Martin Gansten
This probably means
Vyakarana Mahabhasya which is written by Patanjali.
He is believed to be an incarnation of Shesharaj who is a bed of Lord
Vishnu. So Ahi means Snake. Gavi means his speech or Vanee. In Sanskrit gow
means cow and also speech. Here in this context the meaning is to be
considered as speech and derivative of the same would lead to this new word.
This is used by famous commentator Mallinatha in his Raghuvamsa etc at the
commencement of the same.
On Jan 22, 2016 9:16 PM, "Martin Gansten" <martin.gansten at pbhome.se> wrote:

> In a panegyrical reference to his guru in the *H?yanaratna*, Balabhadra
> makes use of the word *ahigav?*:
>
> *atha nat?d?n?m ?nayanam ukta?
> sakalasiddh?ntama??al?sarovihara?ar?jaha?saga?itavidy?c?tur?t?ntrikapa?c?nan?higav?prav??ai?
> ?r?madgurucara?ai? paddhaticint?ma?au |*
>
> I'm inclined to understand it simply to mean 'planet', but I can't find
> this particular compound anywhere else, so I can't be sure. In light of
> everything else going on in this compound (there's half a zoo in there),
> I'd be grateful for any suggestions from the vidv?ns on this list.
>
> Martin Gansten
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From nmisra at gmail.com  Sat Jan 23 04:41:33 2016
From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 16 10:11:33 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ahigavi?
In-Reply-To: <CAODNnZgZukqe7eM4oaardjTG+72w_td5VjLc=f-Zqui5J7NOtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAATk=rBNAXFcQP8Vj7BOjkwUGKuNQbEF2BJz4AB1rjo+b5SDWw@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 January 2016 at 08:36, Krishnaprasad G <krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Martin Gansten
> This probably means
> Vyakarana Mahabhasya which is written by Patanjali.
> He is believed to be an incarnation of Shesharaj who is a bed of Lord
> Vishnu. So Ahi means Snake. Gavi means his speech or Vanee. In Sanskrit gow
> means cow and also speech. Here in this context the meaning is to be
> considered as speech and derivative of the same would lead to this new word.
> This is used by famous commentator Mallinatha in his Raghuvamsa etc at the
> commencement of the same.
>
>
That is correct, however there is no word called *gav?*. Monier Williams
lists the word and even gives the citation *?i?up?lavadha* 2.68 but he (or
the Pandit he relied on) have clearly erred as ?i?up?lavadha 2.68 has the
samasta form *?e?agav?*. The form *gav?* derives from the affix *?ac* at
the end of a *tatpuru?a *compound by the rule *gorataddhitaluki* (5.4.92)
followed by *eco?yav?y?va?* (6.1.78) and then and then *??p* by the rule
*?i??h??a?dvayasajdaghna?m?tractayap?hak?ha?ka?kvarapa?* (6.4.148). Hence *ahe?
gau? ahigav?*.

???? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ??? ??????? ??????????????? (?????? ?.?.??)
??????? ????????? ??????????? ????????????? (?????? ?.?.??) ??????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? (?????? ?.?.??) ???????
???? ???????? ?? (?????? ?.?.???) ??? ????? ???????? ??? ???????????
????????

Mallin?tha calls the Mah?bh??ya *pannagav?*. This and other references
to Pata?jali as ?e?a one may refer the Prast?van? of
*Adhy?tmar?m?ya?e'p??in?yaprayog????
Vimar?a?*. The relevant pages are attached.


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From martin.gansten at pbhome.se  Sat Jan 23 08:07:06 2016
From: martin.gansten at pbhome.se (Martin Gansten)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 16 09:07:06 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ahigavi?
In-Reply-To: <CAATk=rBNAXFcQP8Vj7BOjkwUGKuNQbEF2BJz4AB1rjo+b5SDWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56A334AA.6010708@pbhome.se>

My admiring thanks go to Krishnaprasad and Nityanand Misra for this 
swift and scholarly rescue from mistranslation!

Martin Gansten


Den 2016-01-23 kl. 05:41, skrev Nityanand Misra:
>
>
> On 23 January 2016 at 08:36, Krishnaprasad G 
> <krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com <mailto:krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Dear Martin Gansten
>     This probably means
>     Vyakarana Mahabhasya which is written by Patanjali.
>     He is believed to be an incarnation of Shesharaj who is a bed of
>     Lord Vishnu. So Ahi means Snake. Gavi means his speech or Vanee.
>     In Sanskrit gow means cow and also speech. Here in this context
>     the meaning is to be considered as speech and derivative of the
>     same would lead to this new word.
>     This is used by famous commentator Mallinatha in his Raghuvamsa
>     etc at the commencement of the same.
>
>
>
> That is correct, however there is no word called /gav?/. Monier 
> Williams lists the word and even gives the citation /?i?up?lavadha/ 
> 2.68 but he (or the Pandit he relied on) have clearly erred as 
> ?i?up?lavadha 2.68 has the samasta form /?e?agav?/. The form 
> /gav?/ derives from the affix /?ac/ at the end of a /tatpuru?a 
> /compound by the rule /gorataddhitaluki/ (5.4.92) followed by 
> /eco?yav?y?va?/ (6.1.78) and then and then /??p/ by the rule 
> /?i??h??a?dvayasajdaghna?m?tractayap?hak?ha?ka?kvarapa?/ (6.4.148). 
> Hence /ahe? gau? ahigav?/.
>
> ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ??? ??????? ??????????????? (?????? ?.?.??) 
> ??????? ????????? ??????????? ????????????? (?????? ?.?.??) ?????????????? 
> ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? (?????? ?.?.??) ??????? ???? ???????? 
> ?? (?????? ?.?.???) ??? ????? ???????? ??? ??????????? ????????
>
> Mallin?tha calls the Mah?bh??ya /pannagav?/. This and other references 
> to Pata?jali as ?e?a one may refer the Prast?van? of 
> /Adhy?tmar?m?ya?e'p??in?yaprayog???? Vimar?a?/. The relevant pages are 
> attached.
>



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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sat Jan 23 09:11:34 2016
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 16 14:41:34 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kittel's list
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebnSFNjO+g9=U9z1pc7sHsFm5FVqg9HG5XEtZRTo+PPZw@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for going back to a week old post by Mr Suresh Kolichala

> The copula verb man- 'to be' is replaced by ir- 'to be' in the South
Dravidian languages. As you know, ir- 'to be' is not found in
South-Central, Central and North Dravidian languages. (ir- most likely a
local verb for 'to be')

It is true that 'ir-' is not the copula verb in south-central. In Telugu,
the major language of the south-central, the copula verb is 'agu' (<ak) =
to be as/ to become. unD =to be which is found in Malayalam in copula
situations is found in Telugu as an independent 'to be'  verb in
non-equational VP sentences.

>(ir- most likely a local verb for 'to be')

gives me the impression that you consider that the root 'ir-' is not found
in south-central. But the word iravu ( as in chImalu peTTina puTTalu
paamulakiravaina yaTlu- sumatIs'atakamu ) is a nominalization of the verb
root 'ir-' only. The words rEvu , rEvaDu/ rEvaDi etc. form from 'iravu'
(<ir-) through metathesis.

Another point is,is it not a good idea to count the number of
Proto-Dravidian features retained by Tamil and the other Dravidian members
to decide which is the 'most conservative among Dravidian languages' ? ( I
do not think that there was any claim that all the Proto-Dravidian features
are retained by Tamil only and no other Dravidian language retained
Protodravidian features.)

-N
-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com  Sat Jan 23 15:26:01 2016
From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 16 10:26:01 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] External Origin of Dravidian
Message-ID: <CAOXgvir416DROt+vSw2RAPEiLsgRbLbOZqGv3LAX2HJDvrqoCg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Nagaraj gaaru,

I hope you agree that the verb form ir- 'to be' *[DEDR 480]* either as
copula or independent verb cannot be attested in Telugu. This verb, so
important in South Dravidian, is remarkably absent in Central and North
Dravidian languages, and in many of South-Central languages. In Telugu, you
may find noun forms such as iravu 'place', irugu 'neighbour, neighbourhood'
etc. which can possibly be argued as recent borrowings from Kannada or
Tamil.

The words *??**vu* (????), *??**va?u* (?????), *??**vadi* (?????) etc. are
not derived from  'iravu' (<ir-) (note the alveolar trill, instead of
tap). They
are related to *[DEDR 516]*  *i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go beyond' *i?a?ku*
(*i?a?ki*-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain), disembark; *i?a?kal* place
of descent, of debarkation etc.

If you believe in my proposed theory of external origin of Dravidian, then
the whole question of what constitutes Proto-Dravidian becomes problematic.
 Under the usual historical linguistic principles, words and features found
only in one branch (South Dravidian, in this case) do not provide evidence
for parent language (Proto-Dravidian). But Dravidian linguists have been
wrongly reconstructing words and features found only in South Dravidian
(esp. Tamil) to the parent language under the assumption that Tamil
represents the archaic form of Dravidian. It is a classic catch-22
situation.

I believe there is an urgent need to reevaluate the Dravidian languages
considering the possibility of pre-Dravidian substrata in various branches
of the Dravidian languages. Suspending the belief that Tamil represents the
most archaic form of Dravidian would be a starting point in this endeavour.

Regards,
Suresh.


On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 4:11 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Sorry for going back to a week old post by Mr Suresh Kolichala
>
> > The copula verb man- 'to be' is replaced by ir- 'to be' in the South
> Dravidian languages. As you know, ir- 'to be' is not found in
> South-Central, Central and North Dravidian languages. (ir- most likely a
> local verb for 'to be')
>
> It is true that 'ir-' is not the copula verb in south-central. In Telugu,
> the major language of the south-central, the copula verb is 'agu' (<ak) =
> to be as/ to become. unD =to be which is found in Malayalam in copula
> situations is found in Telugu as an independent 'to be'  verb in
> non-equational VP sentences.
>
> >(ir- most likely a local verb for 'to be')
>
> gives me the impression that you consider that the root 'ir-' is not found
> in south-central. But the word iravu ( as in chImalu peTTina puTTalu
> paamulakiravaina yaTlu- sumatIs'atakamu ) is a nominalization of the verb
> root 'ir-' only. The words rEvu , rEvaDu/ rEvaDi etc. form from 'iravu'
> (<ir-) through metathesis.
>
> Another point is,is it not a good idea to count the number of
> Proto-Dravidian features retained by Tamil and the other Dravidian members
> to decide which is the 'most conservative among Dravidian languages' ? ( I
> do not think that there was any claim that all the Proto-Dravidian features
> are retained by Tamil only and no other Dravidian language retained
> Protodravidian features.)
>
> -N
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From hhhock at illinois.edu  Sat Jan 23 17:09:01 2016
From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 16 17:09:01 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] External Origin of Dravidian
In-Reply-To: <CAOXgvir416DROt+vSw2RAPEiLsgRbLbOZqGv3LAX2HJDvrqoCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8C75E3D-068C-40D7-B934-FF7323589475@illinois.edu>

Dear Suresh (and others in this thread),

Whether or not we accept an ?external? origin of Dravidian (i.e., more recent than the peopling of Eurasia), you are certainly correct in insisting that we need to consider the evidence of *all* the Dravidian languages; privileging Tamil (or select other South Dravidian languages) is methodologically questionable. True, being attested so early, Tamil offers a window on a considerably earlier stage than what we find in the other literary languages (and of course, much earlier than the ?tribal? languages which are attested only since the 19th century). But as you pointed out in your earlier message, other languages preserve archaic features too. Neglecting these can lead to questionable reconstructions.

There is a similar situation in Modern Indo-Aryan, where we have relatively early attestations in the literary languages, but no comparable ones for the ?tribal? languages of the Northwest; and yet, it is these northwestern languages that preserve much more of the complex consonant combinations of Old Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) than any of the literary ones (even Gujarati, Sindhi, Kashmiri can?t compete, although these at least preserve the C + r clusters). (If we reconstruct on the basis of literary (early) Modern Indo-Aryan, we won?t reach something close to the ancestral Old Indo-Aryan but only something close to Apabhra??a.) See the discussion between Pattanayak (1966), Katre (1968), Sen (1973), and Miranda (1978).

Cheers,

Hans


On 23 Jan 2016, at 09:26, Suresh Kolichala <suresh.kolichala at gmail.com<mailto:suresh.kolichala at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Nagaraj gaaru,

I hope you agree that the verb form ir- 'to be' [DEDR 480] either as copula or independent verb cannot be attested in Telugu. This verb, so important in South Dravidian, is remarkably absent in Central and North Dravidian languages, and in many of South-Central languages. In Telugu, you may find noun forms such as iravu 'place', irugu 'neighbour, neighbourhood' etc. which can possibly be argued as recent borrowings from Kannada or Tamil.

The words ??vu (????), ??va?u (?????), ??vadi (?????) etc. are not derived from  'iravu' (<ir-) (note the alveolar trill, instead of tap). They are related to [DEDR 516]  *i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go beyond' i?a?ku (i?a?ki-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain), disembark; i?a?kal place of descent, of debarkation etc.

If you believe in my proposed theory of external origin of Dravidian, then the whole question of what constitutes Proto-Dravidian becomes problematic.  Under the usual historical linguistic principles, words and features found only in one branch (South Dravidian, in this case) do not provide evidence for parent language (Proto-Dravidian). But Dravidian linguists have been wrongly reconstructing words and features found only in South Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language under the assumption that Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian. It is a classic catch-22 situation.

I believe there is an urgent need to reevaluate the Dravidian languages considering the possibility of pre-Dravidian substrata in various branches of the Dravidian languages. Suspending the belief that Tamil represents the most archaic form of Dravidian would be a starting point in this endeavour.

Regards,
Suresh.


On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 4:11 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com<mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>> wrote:
Sorry for going back to a week old post by Mr Suresh Kolichala

> The copula verb man- 'to be' is replaced by ir- 'to be' in the South Dravidian languages. As you know, ir- 'to be' is not found in South-Central, Central and North Dravidian languages. (ir- most likely a local verb for 'to be')

It is true that 'ir-' is not the copula verb in south-central. In Telugu, the major language of the south-central, the copula verb is 'agu' (<ak) = to be as/ to become. unD =to be which is found in Malayalam in copula situations is found in Telugu as an independent 'to be'  verb in non-equational VP sentences.

>(ir- most likely a local verb for 'to be')

gives me the impression that you consider that the root 'ir-' is not found in south-central. But the word iravu ( as in chImalu peTTina puTTalu paamulakiravaina yaTlu- sumatIs'atakamu ) is a nominalization of the verb root 'ir-' only. The words rEvu , rEvaDu/ rEvaDi etc. form from 'iravu' (<ir-) through metathesis.

Another point is,is it not a good idea to count the number of Proto-Dravidian features retained by Tamil and the other Dravidian members to decide which is the 'most conservative among Dravidian languages' ? ( I do not think that there was any claim that all the Proto-Dravidian features are retained by Tamil only and no other Dravidian language retained Protodravidian features.)

-N
--
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )




_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
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From p.balcerowicz at uw.edu.pl  Sat Jan 23 18:19:08 2016
From: p.balcerowicz at uw.edu.pl (Piotr Balcerowicz)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 16 19:19:08 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Conference: Art and Religions in Pre-Islamic Central Asia
Message-ID: <65449826.8831762.1453573148623.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost>

Dear Colleagues,
Here?s an info on a conference which also considers India: 
--------------------------------------
ART AND RELIGIONS IN PRE-ISLAMIC CENTRAL ASIA
October 24-26, 2016
Krakow, Poland 
The Conference offers an ideal opportunity for scholars from all parts of the world to meet and exchange ideas and results of their research on art and religions of the Pre-Islamic Central Asia: Afghanistan, Eastern Turkestan (Xinjiang, China), Kashmir (India and Pakistan), Iran, Western Turkestan (Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan), ancient Gandhara (Pakistan), Silk Road. (Proposals of papers related to other adjacent territories with strict thematic relationship to Central Asia will also be considered).
http://www.world-art.pl/central.asia/
--------------------------------------
Please kindly forward the info to your colleagues who you think might be interested in the topic.
With best regards,
Piotr Balcerowicz
--------------------------------
www.orient.uw.edu.pl/balcerowicz





From gthomgt at gmail.com  Sat Jan 23 19:10:47 2016
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 16 14:10:47 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] a recent review of the Jamison-Brereton RV translation by Karen Thomson
In-Reply-To: <20160122091404.Horde.64reCmz6gqNi4hItbIpe2g1@webmail.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zuNWnwFaOrVsVwfaNJjqjrTNWchmsHWPkGDOpEJHFzp0w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

Thanks to Asko, I do now remember reading an essay by Thomson on the word
graavan.  I took dome interest in it because at about that time I gave a
paper on RV 10.94, in which this word played a prominent role.  This was in
2001 or 2002, at the Third International Vedic Workshop in Leiden.

In any case, I was not convinced by i\her paper, and in fact, as in the
case of this recent paper in TLS, I was rather surprised that it had been
published.  I think that it was at about this time that I stopped reading
JIES.

>From the material that Asko has sent me I now see that Thomson also
dismisses the Witzel-Goto translation. Another off-list  email informs me
that Thomson was likewise dismissive of Louis Renou.

I knew that Thomson had had some association with the Univ of Texas in
Austin, but did not feel any desire to look into what she was doing there.

I was wrong to dismiss her review as naive.  It was nice to see that she
had some interest in the history of European scholarship on the history of
Vedic Studies.  But now I see clearly that her problem is hubris.

Please don't expect me to reply to more emails for the time being.  I have
developed a bad cold and I am suffering.

George Thompson


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jan 24 03:34:15 2016
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 16 20:34:15 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Prof. Diwakar Acharya named for Spalding Chair
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CffuXEQ2DMBK9YRTV20oym1+tK-CWn=zUhdX94PEpoA_Q@mail.gmail.com>

It's great to see on the All Souls website
<https://www.asc.ox.ac.uk/person/3328?m1=4&m2=0> that Prof. Diwakar Acharya
has been elected to the Spalding Chair in Eastern Religion and Ethics at
All Souls College, Oxford University, from April this year.  I am sure the
members of this forum join me in offering warm congratulations to him and
to the selection committee.  Prof. Acharya is the successor to a
distinguished series of previous holders of the Spalding chair, most
recently of course Alexis Sanderson, who have all made extraordinary
contributions to our field.

Dominik Wujastyk

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk* <http://ualberta.Academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
University of Alberta, Canada


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sun Jan 24 05:44:18 2016
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 16 11:14:18 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] External Origin of Dravidian
In-Reply-To: <B8C75E3D-068C-40D7-B934-FF7323589475@illinois.edu>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ea=C-ZTTZQBWxRo6aTCRedNPBYtduweBkhWsvkS4G8jtQ@mail.gmail.com>

>In Telugu, you may find noun forms such as iravu 'place', irugu
'neighbour, neighbourhood' etc. which can possibly be argued as recent
borrowings from Kannada or Tamil.

---- That argument can be made provided those words are found in Kannada
and/or Tamil.

There are a few other such instances where a certain root may not be found
in its basic verb root form in Telugu may be found in its secondary verb
root forms or other such derivatives forms as nominalizations. One such is
pa? = to do. In Telugu it is found in its causative form panucu/pa?cu,
nominalized
form pani but not in its basic verb form as in Tamil.
>
The words *??**vu* (????), *??**va?u* (?????), *??**vadi* (?????) etc. are
not derived from  'iravu' (<ir-) (note the alveolar trill, instead of
tap). They
are related to *[DEDR 516]*  *i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go beyond' *i?a?ku*
(*i?a?ki*-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain), disembark; *i?a?kal* place
of descent, of debarkation etc.

The usages of ???? r?vu are more with ?? than with ?? . Is not "*i?-/i?-
'to descend', 'to go beyond' *i?a?ku* (*i?a?ki*-) to descend, alight, fall
(as rain), disembark; *i?a?kal* place of descent, of debarkation etc." all
from the tracing to Tamil ? Do we have *i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go
beyond' *i?a?ku* (*i?a?ki*-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain), disembark;
*i?a?kal* place of descent, of debarkation etc in Telugu? ( ????? r?va?i is
as in ren?iki ce??a r?va?i )
> But Dravidian linguists have been wrongly reconstructing words and
features found only in South Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language
under the assumption that Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian.

------ I thought each reconstructions were done meticulously case by case
choosing the most plausible root of phonetic change from among those
required to account for all the available forms. I thought, otherwise,
identifying any non-Tamil language as retaining the Protodravidian
features/elements would not have been possible. But if it can be proved
that 'Dravidian linguists have been wrongly reconstructing words and
features found only in South Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language
under the assumption that Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian' , it
will be a path-breaking critique of the current methods of historical
linguistics. Now that the likes of Prof. Hans Henrich Hock started to extend
the argument to IE studies too, it may pave way for a revamp of the
existing methods of historical linguistics. Any such change is certainly
welcome.

> I believe there is an urgent need to reevaluate the Dravidian languages
considering the possibility of pre-Dravidian substrata in various branches
of the Dravidian languages.

----- I think you are aware that such proposals are as old as the
beginnings of Dravidian linguistics, though no systematic study ever took
off. With you there seems to be promise of such a work in near future.

> Suspending the belief that Tamil represents the most archaic form of
Dravidian would be a starting point in this endeavour.

------ I agree that cleaning the slate and starting out from the scratch is
required. But I don't think pre-Dravidian substrata issue need not be based
on the Tamil issue. Des'ya components of various members of Dravidian
family that can not be explained by the Dravidian model are what lead to
pre-Dravidian substrata.

Best wishes,

Nagaraj



On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 10:39 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich <hhhock at illinois.edu>
wrote:

> Dear Suresh (and others in this thread),
>
> Whether or not we accept an ?external? origin of Dravidian (i.e., more
> recent than the peopling of Eurasia), you are certainly correct in
> insisting that we need to consider the evidence of *all* the Dravidian
> languages; privileging Tamil (or select other South Dravidian languages) is
> methodologically questionable. True, being attested so early, Tamil offers
> a window on a considerably earlier stage than what we find in the other
> literary languages (and of course, much earlier than the ?tribal? languages
> which are attested only since the 19th century). But as you pointed out in
> your earlier message, other languages preserve archaic features too.
> Neglecting these can lead to questionable reconstructions.
>
> There is a similar situation in Modern Indo-Aryan, where we have
> relatively early attestations in the literary languages, but no comparable
> ones for the ?tribal? languages of the Northwest; and yet, it is these
> northwestern languages that preserve much more of the complex consonant
> combinations of Old Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) than any of the literary ones
> (even Gujarati, Sindhi, Kashmiri can?t compete, although these at least
> preserve the C + r clusters). (If we reconstruct on the basis of literary
> (early) Modern Indo-Aryan, we won?t reach something close to the ancestral
> Old Indo-Aryan but only something close to Apabhra??a.) See the discussion
> between Pattanayak (1966), Katre (1968), Sen (1973), and Miranda (1978).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Hans
>
>
> On 23 Jan 2016, at 09:26, Suresh Kolichala <suresh.kolichala at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Nagaraj gaaru,
>
> I hope you agree that the verb form ir- 'to be' *[DEDR 480]* either as
> copula or independent verb cannot be attested in Telugu. This verb, so
> important in South Dravidian, is remarkably absent in Central and North
> Dravidian languages, and in many of South-Central languages. In Telugu, you
> may find noun forms such as iravu 'place', irugu 'neighbour, neighbourhood'
> etc. which can possibly be argued as recent borrowings from Kannada or
> Tamil.
>
> The words *??**vu* (????), *??**va?u* (?????), *??**vadi* (?????) etc.
> are not derived from  'iravu' (<ir-) (note the alveolar trill, instead of
> tap). They are related to *[DEDR 516]*  *i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go
> beyond' *i?a?ku* (*i?a?ki*-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain),
> disembark; *i?a?kal* place of descent, of debarkation etc.
>
> If you believe in my proposed theory of external origin of Dravidian, then
> the whole question of what constitutes Proto-Dravidian becomes problematic.
>  Under the usual historical linguistic principles, words and features
> found only in one branch (South Dravidian, in this case) do not provide
> evidence for parent language (Proto-Dravidian). But Dravidian linguists
> have been wrongly reconstructing words and features found only in South
> Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language under the assumption that
> Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian. It is a classic catch-22
> situation.
>
> I believe there is an urgent need to reevaluate the Dravidian languages
> considering the possibility of pre-Dravidian substrata in various branches
> of the Dravidian languages. Suspending the belief that Tamil represents the
> most archaic form of Dravidian would be a starting point in this endeavour.
>
> Regards,
> Suresh.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 4:11 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Sorry for going back to a week old post by Mr Suresh Kolichala
>>
>> > The copula verb man- 'to be' is replaced by ir- 'to be' in the South
>> Dravidian languages. As you know, ir- 'to be' is not found in
>> South-Central, Central and North Dravidian languages. (ir- most likely a
>> local verb for 'to be')
>>
>> It is true that 'ir-' is not the copula verb in south-central. In Telugu,
>> the major language of the south-central, the copula verb is 'agu' (<ak) =
>> to be as/ to become. unD =to be which is found in Malayalam in copula
>> situations is found in Telugu as an independent 'to be'  verb in
>> non-equational VP sentences.
>>
>> >(ir- most likely a local verb for 'to be')
>>
>> gives me the impression that you consider that the root 'ir-' is not
>> found in south-central. But the word iravu ( as in chImalu peTTina puTTalu
>> paamulakiravaina yaTlu- sumatIs'atakamu ) is a nominalization of the verb
>> root 'ir-' only. The words rEvu , rEvaDu/ rEvaDi etc. form from 'iravu'
>> (<ir-) through metathesis.
>>
>> Another point is,is it not a good idea to count the number of
>> Proto-Dravidian features retained by Tamil and the other Dravidian members
>> to decide which is the 'most conservative among Dravidian languages' ? ( I
>> do not think that there was any claim that all the Proto-Dravidian features
>> are retained by Tamil only and no other Dravidian language retained
>> Protodravidian features.)
>>
>> -N
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__listinfo.indology.info&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=yKOAMu7Fm_W5kv9CXfjbmb6aWTY6BVQCYZ5TKkB486Q&m=UOEFQg0LvonRQRaX6UlC_NKC7F8O2SpPYeq6WNPeTUA&s=oGaimwx2iH-M5R6zUQQpQ0mdN3FuZSJAomSQq4kcf1c&e=>
>> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Sun Jan 24 18:18:39 2016
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 16 18:18:39 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] External Origin of Dravidian
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9ea=C-ZTTZQBWxRo6aTCRedNPBYtduweBkhWsvkS4G8jtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522CA580B@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear list members, I was pleasantly surprised by the following sentence in Nagaraj's message:

"I agree that cleaning the slate and starting out from the scratch is required."

I had a deja vu of sorts, as this is precisely what I suggested in my book K?vya in South India from 2001 with regard to the date of Old Tamil Ca?kam poetry between the 3rd c. BC to the 3rd c. AD. This early date is an axiom; if the facts do not agree, then the facts are wrong ? and so is the messenger.
Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Nagaraj Paturi [nagarajpaturi at gmail.com]
Verzonden: zondag 24 januari 2016 6:44
Aan: Hock, Hans Henrich
CC: Indology
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] External Origin of Dravidian

>In Telugu, you may find noun forms such as iravu 'place', irugu 'neighbour, neighbourhood' etc. which can possibly be argued as recent borrowings from Kannada or Tamil.

---- That argument can be made provided those words are found in Kannada and/or Tamil.

There are a few other such instances where a certain root may not be found in its basic verb root form in Telugu may be found in its secondary verb root forms or other such derivatives forms as nominalizations. One such is pa? = to do. In Telugu it is found in its causative form panucu/pa?cu, nominalized form pani but not in its basic verb form as in Tamil.
>
The words ??vu (????), ??va?u (?????), ??vadi (?????) etc. are not derived from  'iravu' (<ir-) (note the alveolar trill, instead of tap). They are related to [DEDR 516]  *i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go beyond' i?a?ku (i?a?ki-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain), disembark; i?a?kal place of descent, of debarkation etc.

The usages of ???? r?vu are more with ?? than with ?? . Is not "*i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go beyond' i?a?ku (i?a?ki-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain), disembark; i?a?kal place of descent, of debarkation etc." all from the tracing to Tamil ? Do we have *i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go beyond' i?a?ku (i?a?ki-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain), disembark; i?a?kal place of descent, of debarkation etc in Telugu? ( ????? r?va?i is as in ren?iki ce??a r?va?i )
> But Dravidian linguists have been wrongly reconstructing words and features found only in South Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language under the assumption that Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian.

------ I thought each reconstructions were done meticulously case by case choosing the most plausible root of phonetic change from among those required to account for all the available forms. I thought, otherwise, identifying any non-Tamil language as retaining the Protodravidian features/elements would not have been possible. But if it can be proved that 'Dravidian linguists have been wrongly reconstructing words and features found only in South Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language under the assumption that Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian' , it will be a path-breaking critique of the current methods of historical linguistics. Now that the likes of Prof. Hans Henrich Hock started to extend the argument to IE studies too, it may pave way for a revamp of the existing methods of historical linguistics. Any such change is certainly welcome.

> I believe there is an urgent need to reevaluate the Dravidian languages considering the possibility of pre-Dravidian substrata in various branches of the Dravidian languages.

----- I think you are aware that such proposals are as old as the beginnings of Dravidian linguistics, though no systematic study ever took off. With you there seems to be promise of such a work in near future.

> Suspending the belief that Tamil represents the most archaic form of Dravidian would be a starting point in this endeavour.

------ I agree that cleaning the slate and starting out from the scratch is required. But I don't think pre-Dravidian substrata issue need not be based on the Tamil issue. Des'ya components of various members of Dravidian family that can not be explained by the Dravidian model are what lead to pre-Dravidian substrata.

Best wishes,

Nagaraj



On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 10:39 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich <hhhock at illinois.edu<mailto:hhhock at illinois.edu>> wrote:
Dear Suresh (and others in this thread),

Whether or not we accept an ?external? origin of Dravidian (i.e., more recent than the peopling of Eurasia), you are certainly correct in insisting that we need to consider the evidence of *all* the Dravidian languages; privileging Tamil (or select other South Dravidian languages) is methodologically questionable. True, being attested so early, Tamil offers a window on a considerably earlier stage than what we find in the other literary languages (and of course, much earlier than the ?tribal? languages which are attested only since the 19th century). But as you pointed out in your earlier message, other languages preserve archaic features too. Neglecting these can lead to questionable reconstructions.

There is a similar situation in Modern Indo-Aryan, where we have relatively early attestations in the literary languages, but no comparable ones for the ?tribal? languages of the Northwest; and yet, it is these northwestern languages that preserve much more of the complex consonant combinations of Old Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) than any of the literary ones (even Gujarati, Sindhi, Kashmiri can?t compete, although these at least preserve the C + r clusters). (If we reconstruct on the basis of literary (early) Modern Indo-Aryan, we won?t reach something close to the ancestral Old Indo-Aryan but only something close to Apabhra??a.) See the discussion between Pattanayak (1966), Katre (1968), Sen (1973), and Miranda (1978).

Cheers,

Hans


On 23 Jan 2016, at 09:26, Suresh Kolichala <suresh.kolichala at gmail.com<mailto:suresh.kolichala at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Nagaraj gaaru,

I hope you agree that the verb form ir- 'to be' [DEDR 480] either as copula or independent verb cannot be attested in Telugu. This verb, so important in South Dravidian, is remarkably absent in Central and North Dravidian languages, and in many of South-Central languages. In Telugu, you may find noun forms such as iravu 'place', irugu 'neighbour, neighbourhood' etc. which can possibly be argued as recent borrowings from Kannada or Tamil.

The words ??vu (????), ??va?u (?????), ??vadi (?????) etc. are not derived from  'iravu' (<ir-) (note the alveolar trill, instead of tap). They are related to [DEDR 516]  *i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go beyond' i?a?ku (i?a?ki-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain), disembark; i?a?kal place of descent, of debarkation etc.

If you believe in my proposed theory of external origin of Dravidian, then the whole question of what constitutes Proto-Dravidian becomes problematic.  Under the usual historical linguistic principles, words and features found only in one branch (South Dravidian, in this case) do not provide evidence for parent language (Proto-Dravidian). But Dravidian linguists have been wrongly reconstructing words and features found only in South Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language under the assumption that Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian. It is a classic catch-22 situation.

I believe there is an urgent need to reevaluate the Dravidian languages considering the possibility of pre-Dravidian substrata in various branches of the Dravidian languages. Suspending the belief that Tamil represents the most archaic form of Dravidian would be a starting point in this endeavour.

Regards,
Suresh.


On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 4:11 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com<mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>> wrote:
Sorry for going back to a week old post by Mr Suresh Kolichala

> The copula verb man- 'to be' is replaced by ir- 'to be' in the South Dravidian languages. As you know, ir- 'to be' is not found in South-Central, Central and North Dravidian languages. (ir- most likely a local verb for 'to be')

It is true that 'ir-' is not the copula verb in south-central. In Telugu, the major language of the south-central, the copula verb is 'agu' (<ak) = to be as/ to become. unD =to be which is found in Malayalam in copula situations is found in Telugu as an independent 'to be'  verb in non-equational VP sentences.

>(ir- most likely a local verb for 'to be')

gives me the impression that you consider that the root 'ir-' is not found in south-central. But the word iravu ( as in chImalu peTTina puTTalu paamulakiravaina yaTlu- sumatIs'atakamu ) is a nominalization of the verb root 'ir-' only. The words rEvu , rEvaDu/ rEvaDi etc. form from 'iravu' (<ir-) through metathesis.

Another point is,is it not a good idea to count the number of Proto-Dravidian features retained by Tamil and the other Dravidian members to decide which is the 'most conservative among Dravidian languages' ? ( I do not think that there was any claim that all the Proto-Dravidian features are retained by Tamil only and no other Dravidian language retained Protodravidian features.)

-N
--
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )




_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
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--
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )





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From glhart at berkeley.edu  Sun Jan 24 18:38:52 2016
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 16 10:38:52 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] External Origin of Dravidian
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522CA580B@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <1D259804-6E3B-4F89-B7B3-66B5821BA2A1@berkeley.edu>

Murray Emeneau did not know Tamil, and on many occasions he expressed to me his regret that he had not learned it. In the DED, he and Burrow always put the Tamil occurrence of a word first. Murray worked with my wife, Kausalya, and used her knowledge of modern (and old) Tamil to show that in onomatopoetic words, PDr must have had voiced initial stops. The issue, I think, is not whether old Tamil is very conservative or not ? it clearly is. It is that by itself it cannot serve as a window into PDr. For that, every Dravidian language is obviously required, and one must look at the major branches of the family. Still, I would venture that of all the Dravidian languages that are documented, Sangam Tamil is by far the closest to PDr. To try to understand Dravidian comparative linguistics without considering old Tamil would be pointless. My guess is that Sangam Tamil is about as close to PDr as Vedic Sanskrit is to PIE. George

> On Jan 24, 2016, at 10:18 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
> 
> Dear list members, I was pleasantly surprised by the following sentence in Nagaraj's message:
> 
> "I agree that cleaning the slate and starting out from the scratch is required."
> 
> I had a deja vu of sorts, as this is precisely what I suggested in my book K?vya in South India from 2001 with regard to the date of Old Tamil Ca?kam poetry between the 3rd c. BC to the 3rd c. AD. This early date is an axiom; if the facts do not agree, then the facts are wrong ? and so is the messenger.
> Herman
> 
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
> Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>] namens Nagaraj Paturi [nagarajpaturi at gmail.com <mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>]
> Verzonden: zondag 24 januari 2016 6:44
> Aan: Hock, Hans Henrich
> CC: Indology
> Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] External Origin of Dravidian
> 
> >In Telugu, you may find noun forms such as iravu 'place', irugu 'neighbour, neighbourhood' etc. which can possibly be argued as recent borrowings from Kannada or Tamil. 
>  
> ---- That argument can be made provided those words are found in Kannada and/or Tamil.
>  
> There are a few other such instances where a certain root may not be found in its basic verb root form in Telugu may be found in its secondary verb root forms or other such derivatives forms as nominalizations. One such is pa? = to do. In Telugu it is found in its causative form panucu/pa?cu, nominalized form pani but not in its basic verb form as in Tamil.
> >
> The words ??vu (????), ??va?u (?????), ??vadi (?????) etc. are not derived from  'iravu' (<ir-) (note the alveolar trill, instead of tap). They are related to [DEDR 516]  *i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go beyond' i?a?ku (i?a?ki-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain), disembark; i?a?kal place of descent, of debarkation etc.
>  
> The usages of ???? r?vu are more with ?? than with ?? . Is not "*i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go beyond' i?a?ku (i?a?ki-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain), disembark; i?a?kal place of descent, of debarkation etc." all from the tracing to Tamil ? Do we have *i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go beyond' i?a?ku (i?a?ki-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain), disembark; i?a?kal place of descent, of debarkation etc in Telugu? ( ????? r?va?i is as in ren?iki ce??a r?va?i )
> > But Dravidian linguists have been wrongly reconstructing words and features found only in South Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language under the assumption that Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian.
>  
> ------ I thought each reconstructions were done meticulously case by case choosing the most plausible root of phonetic change from among those required to account for all the available forms. I thought, otherwise, identifying any non-Tamil language as retaining the Protodravidian features/elements would not have been possible. But if it can be proved that 'Dravidian linguists have been wrongly reconstructing words and features found only in South Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language under the assumption that Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian' , it will be a path-breaking critique of the current methods of historical linguistics. Now that the likes of Prof. Hans Henrich Hock started to extend the argument to IE studies too, it may pave way for a revamp of the existing methods of historical linguistics. Any such change is certainly welcome.
>  
> > I believe there is an urgent need to reevaluate the Dravidian languages considering the possibility of pre-Dravidian substrata in various branches of the Dravidian languages.
>  
> ----- I think you are aware that such proposals are as old as the beginnings of Dravidian linguistics, though no systematic study ever took off. With you there seems to be promise of such a work in near future.
>  
> > Suspending the belief that Tamil represents the most archaic form of Dravidian would be a starting point in this endeavour.
>  
> ------ I agree that cleaning the slate and starting out from the scratch is required. But I don't think pre-Dravidian substrata issue need not be based on the Tamil issue. Des'ya components of various members of Dravidian family that can not be explained by the Dravidian model are what lead to pre-Dravidian substrata. 
>  
> Best wishes,
>  
> Nagaraj
>  
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 10:39 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich <hhhock at illinois.edu <mailto:hhhock at illinois.edu>> wrote:
> Dear Suresh (and others in this thread),
> 
> Whether or not we accept an ?external? origin of Dravidian (i.e., more recent than the peopling of Eurasia), you are certainly correct in insisting that we need to consider the evidence of *all* the Dravidian languages; privileging Tamil (or select other South Dravidian languages) is methodologically questionable. True, being attested so early, Tamil offers a window on a considerably earlier stage than what we find in the other literary languages (and of course, much earlier than the ?tribal? languages which are attested only since the 19th century). But as you pointed out in your earlier message, other languages preserve archaic features too. Neglecting these can lead to questionable reconstructions. 
> 
> There is a similar situation in Modern Indo-Aryan, where we have relatively early attestations in the literary languages, but no comparable ones for the ?tribal? languages of the Northwest; and yet, it is these northwestern languages that preserve much more of the complex consonant combinations of Old Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) than any of the literary ones (even Gujarati, Sindhi, Kashmiri can?t compete, although these at least preserve the C + r clusters). (If we reconstruct on the basis of literary (early) Modern Indo-Aryan, we won?t reach something close to the ancestral Old Indo-Aryan but only something close to Apabhra??a.) See the discussion between Pattanayak (1966), Katre (1968), Sen (1973), and Miranda (1978).
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Hans 
> 
> 
> On 23 Jan 2016, at 09:26, Suresh Kolichala <suresh.kolichala at gmail.com <mailto:suresh.kolichala at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>> Dear Nagaraj gaaru,
>> 
>> I hope you agree that the verb form ir- 'to be' [DEDR 480] either as copula or independent verb cannot be attested in Telugu. This verb, so important in South Dravidian, is remarkably absent in Central and North Dravidian languages, and in many of South-Central languages. In Telugu, you may find noun forms such as iravu 'place', irugu 'neighbour, neighbourhood' etc. which can possibly be argued as recent borrowings from Kannada or Tamil. 
>> 
>> The words ??vu (????), ??va?u (?????), ??vadi (?????) etc. are not derived from  'iravu' (<ir-) (note the alveolar trill, instead of tap). They are related to [DEDR 516]  *i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go beyond' i?a?ku (i?a?ki-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain), disembark; i?a?kal place of descent, of debarkation etc.
>> 
>> If you believe in my proposed theory of external origin of Dravidian, then the whole question of what constitutes Proto-Dravidian becomes problematic.  Under the usual historical linguistic principles, words and features found only in one branch (South Dravidian, in this case) do not provide evidence for parent language (Proto-Dravidian). But Dravidian linguists have been wrongly reconstructing words and features found only in South Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language under the assumption that Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian. It is a classic catch-22 situation. 
>> 
>> I believe there is an urgent need to reevaluate the Dravidian languages considering the possibility of pre-Dravidian substrata in various branches of the Dravidian languages. Suspending the belief that Tamil represents the most archaic form of Dravidian would be a starting point in this endeavour.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Suresh.
>>  
>> 
>> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 4:11 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com <mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Sorry for going back to a week old post by Mr Suresh Kolichala
>> 
>> > The copula verb man- 'to be' is replaced by ir-
>> 'to be' in the South Dravidian languages. As you know, ir- 'to be' is not
>> found in South-Central, Central and North Dravidian languages. (ir- most
>> likely a local verb for 'to be')
>> 
>> It is true that 'ir-' is not the copula verb in south-central. In Telugu, the major language of the south-central, the copula verb is 'agu' (<ak) = to be as/ to become. unD =to be which is found in Malayalam in copula situations is found in Telugu as an independent 'to be'  verb in non-equational VP sentences.
>> 
>> >(ir- most likely a local verb for 'to be')
>> 
>> 
>> gives me the impression that you consider that the root 'ir-' is not found in south-central. But the word iravu ( as in chImalu peTTina puTTalu paamulakiravaina yaTlu- sumatIs'atakamu ) is a nominalization of the verb
>>  root 'ir-' only. The words rEvu , rEvaDu/ rEvaDi etc. form from 'iravu' (<ir-) through metathesis.
>> 
>> 
>> Another point is,is it not a good idea to count the number of Proto-Dravidian features retained by Tamil and the other Dravidian members to decide which is the 'most conservative among Dravidian languages' ? ( I do not
>>  think that there was any claim that all the Proto-Dravidian features are retained by Tamil only and no other Dravidian language retained Protodravidian features.)
>>  
>> -N
>> -- 
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>  
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>  
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>  
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>  
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__listinfo.indology.info&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=yKOAMu7Fm_W5kv9CXfjbmb6aWTY6BVQCYZ5TKkB486Q&m=UOEFQg0LvonRQRaX6UlC_NKC7F8O2SpPYeq6WNPeTUA&s=oGaimwx2iH-M5R6zUQQpQ0mdN3FuZSJAomSQq4kcf1c&e=> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Nagaraj Paturi
>  
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>  
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>  
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>  
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>  
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sun Jan 24 19:14:40 2016
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 16 00:44:40 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] External Origin of Dravidian
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522CA580B@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eaG3iZ5NwUGChygjdMvGOSz0jJ0kaZf=CPaJpYNg0mAqA@mail.gmail.com>

Correction to my post:

I typed :

But I don't think pre-Dravidian substrata issue need not be based on the
Tamil issue.

I wanted to say,

But I think pre-Dravidian substrata issue need not be based on the Tamil
issue.



On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 11:48 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <
H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:

> Dear list members, I was pleasantly surprised by the following sentence in
> Nagaraj's message:
>
> "I agree that cleaning the slate and starting out from the scratch is
> required."
>
> I had a deja vu of sorts, as this is precisely what I suggested in my book
> K?vya in South India from 2001 with regard to the date of Old Tamil Ca?kam
> poetry between the 3rd c. BC to the 3rd c. AD. This early date is an axiom;
> if the facts do not agree, then the facts are wrong ? and so is the
> messenger.
> Herman
>
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com
> ------------------------------
> *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Nagaraj
> Paturi [nagarajpaturi at gmail.com]
> *Verzonden:* zondag 24 januari 2016 6:44
> *Aan:* Hock, Hans Henrich
> *CC:* Indology
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [INDOLOGY] External Origin of Dravidian
>
> >In Telugu, you may find noun forms such as iravu 'place', irugu
> 'neighbour, neighbourhood' etc. which can possibly be argued as recent
> borrowings from Kannada or Tamil.
>
> ---- That argument can be made provided those words are found in Kannada
> and/or Tamil.
>
> There are a few other such instances where a certain root may not be found
> in its basic verb root form in Telugu may be found in its secondary verb
> root forms or other such derivatives forms as nominalizations. One such is
> pa? = to do. In Telugu it is found in its causative form panucu/pa?cu, nominalized
> form pani but not in its basic verb form as in Tamil.
> >
> The words *??**vu* (????), *??**va?u* (?????), *??**vadi* (?????) etc.
> are not derived from  'iravu' (<ir-) (note the alveolar trill, instead of
> tap). They are related to *[DEDR 516]*  *i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go
> beyond' *i?a?ku* (*i?a?ki*-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain),
> disembark; *i?a?kal* place of descent, of debarkation etc.
>
> The usages of ???? r?vu are more with ?? than with ?? . Is not "*i?-/i?-
> 'to descend', 'to go beyond' *i?a?ku* (*i?a?ki*-) to descend, alight,
> fall (as rain), disembark; *i?a?kal* place of descent, of debarkation etc.
> " all from the tracing to Tamil ? Do we have *i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to
> go beyond' *i?a?ku* (*i?a?ki*-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain),
> disembark; *i?a?kal* place of descent, of debarkation etc in Telugu? ( ?????
> r?va?i is as in ren?iki ce??a r?va?i )
> > But Dravidian linguists have been wrongly reconstructing words and
> features found only in South Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language
> under the assumption that Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian.
>
> ------ I thought each reconstructions were done meticulously case by case
> choosing the most plausible root of phonetic change from among those
> required to account for all the available forms. I thought, otherwise,
> identifying any non-Tamil language as retaining the Protodravidian
> features/elements would not have been possible. But if it can be proved
> that 'Dravidian linguists have been wrongly reconstructing words and
> features found only in South Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language
> under the assumption that Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian'
> , it will be a path-breaking critique of the current methods of
> historical linguistics. Now that the likes of Prof. Hans Henrich Hock
> started to extend the argument to IE studies too, it may pave way for a
> revamp of the existing methods of historical linguistics. Any such change
> is certainly welcome.
>
> > I believe there is an urgent need to reevaluate the Dravidian languages
> considering the possibility of pre-Dravidian substrata in various branches
> of the Dravidian languages.
>
> ----- I think you are aware that such proposals are as old as the
> beginnings of Dravidian linguistics, though no systematic study ever took
> off. With you there seems to be promise of such a work in near future.
>
> > Suspending the belief that Tamil represents the most archaic form of
> Dravidian would be a starting point in this endeavour.
>
> ------ I agree that cleaning the slate and starting out from the scratch
> is required. But I don't think pre-Dravidian substrata issue need not be
> based on the Tamil issue. Des'ya components of various members of Dravidian
> family that can not be explained by the Dravidian model are what lead to
> pre-Dravidian substrata.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Nagaraj
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 10:39 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich <hhhock at illinois.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Suresh (and others in this thread),
>>
>> Whether or not we accept an ?external? origin of Dravidian (i.e., more
>> recent than the peopling of Eurasia), you are certainly correct in
>> insisting that we need to consider the evidence of *all* the Dravidian
>> languages; privileging Tamil (or select other South Dravidian languages) is
>> methodologically questionable. True, being attested so early, Tamil offers
>> a window on a considerably earlier stage than what we find in the other
>> literary languages (and of course, much earlier than the ?tribal? languages
>> which are attested only since the 19th century). But as you pointed out in
>> your earlier message, other languages preserve archaic features too.
>> Neglecting these can lead to questionable reconstructions.
>>
>> There is a similar situation in Modern Indo-Aryan, where we have
>> relatively early attestations in the literary languages, but no comparable
>> ones for the ?tribal? languages of the Northwest; and yet, it is these
>> northwestern languages that preserve much more of the complex consonant
>> combinations of Old Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) than any of the literary ones
>> (even Gujarati, Sindhi, Kashmiri can?t compete, although these at least
>> preserve the C + r clusters). (If we reconstruct on the basis of literary
>> (early) Modern Indo-Aryan, we won?t reach something close to the ancestral
>> Old Indo-Aryan but only something close to Apabhra??a.) See the discussion
>> between Pattanayak (1966), Katre (1968), Sen (1973), and Miranda (1978).
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Hans
>>
>>
>> On 23 Jan 2016, at 09:26, Suresh Kolichala <suresh.kolichala at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Nagaraj gaaru,
>>
>> I hope you agree that the verb form ir- 'to be' *[DEDR 480]* either as
>> copula or independent verb cannot be attested in Telugu. This verb, so
>> important in South Dravidian, is remarkably absent in Central and North
>> Dravidian languages, and in many of South-Central languages. In Telugu, you
>> may find noun forms such as iravu 'place', irugu 'neighbour, neighbourhood'
>> etc. which can possibly be argued as recent borrowings from Kannada or
>> Tamil.
>>
>> The words *??**vu* (????), *??**va?u* (?????), *??**vadi* (?????) etc.
>> are not derived from  'iravu' (<ir-) (note the alveolar trill, instead of
>> tap). They are related to *[DEDR 516]*  *i?-/i?- 'to descend', 'to go
>> beyond' *i?a?ku* (*i?a?ki*-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain),
>> disembark; *i?a?kal* place of descent, of debarkation etc.
>>
>> If you believe in my proposed theory of external origin of Dravidian,
>> then the whole question of what constitutes Proto-Dravidian becomes
>> problematic.  Under the usual historical linguistic principles, words
>> and features found only in one branch (South Dravidian, in this case) do
>> not provide evidence for parent language (Proto-Dravidian). But Dravidian
>> linguists have been wrongly reconstructing words and features found only in
>> South Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language under the assumption
>> that Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian. It is a classic
>> catch-22 situation.
>>
>> I believe there is an urgent need to reevaluate the Dravidian languages
>> considering the possibility of pre-Dravidian substrata in various branches
>> of the Dravidian languages. Suspending the belief that Tamil represents the
>> most archaic form of Dravidian would be a starting point in this endeavour.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Suresh.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 4:11 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry for going back to a week old post by Mr Suresh Kolichala
>>>
>>> > The copula verb man- 'to be' is replaced by ir- 'to be' in the South
>>> Dravidian languages. As you know, ir- 'to be' is not found in
>>> South-Central, Central and North Dravidian languages. (ir- most likely
>>> a local verb for 'to be')
>>>
>>> It is true that 'ir-' is not the copula verb in south-central. In
>>> Telugu, the major language of the south-central, the copula verb is 'agu'
>>> (<ak) = to be as/ to become. unD =to be which is found in Malayalam in
>>> copula situations is found in Telugu as an independent 'to be'  verb in
>>> non-equational VP sentences.
>>>
>>> >(ir- most likely a local verb for 'to be')
>>>
>>> gives me the impression that you consider that the root 'ir-' is not
>>> found in south-central. But the word iravu ( as in chImalu peTTina puTTalu
>>> paamulakiravaina yaTlu- sumatIs'atakamu ) is a nominalization of the verb
>>> root 'ir-' only. The words rEvu , rEvaDu/ rEvaDi etc. form from 'iravu'
>>> (<ir-) through metathesis.
>>>
>>> Another point is,is it not a good idea to count the number of
>>> Proto-Dravidian features retained by Tamil and the other Dravidian members
>>> to decide which is the 'most conservative among Dravidian languages' ? ( I
>>> do not think that there was any claim that all the Proto-Dravidian features
>>> are retained by Tamil only and no other Dravidian language retained
>>> Protodravidian features.)
>>>
>>> -N
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__listinfo.indology.info&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=yKOAMu7Fm_W5kv9CXfjbmb6aWTY6BVQCYZ5TKkB486Q&m=UOEFQg0LvonRQRaX6UlC_NKC7F8O2SpPYeq6WNPeTUA&s=oGaimwx2iH-M5R6zUQQpQ0mdN3FuZSJAomSQq4kcf1c&e=>
>>> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>



-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From jknutson at hawaii.edu  Sun Jan 24 20:06:49 2016
From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 16 10:06:49 -1000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Agriculture in Ancient India
Message-ID: <CAAiVBEUJQkUqMGPYHc3AKhZGy30XVp9SzZRPD5smVDRGjbcjwA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List, Can you recommend some good readings on the early/earliest
history of agriculture in South Asia? Best,J

-- 
Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific
Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at M?noa
461 Spalding


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From mbjones at utexas.edu  Sun Jan 24 21:09:05 2016
From: mbjones at utexas.edu (Michael Brattus Jones)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 16 15:09:05 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Agriculture in Ancient India
In-Reply-To: <CAAiVBEUJQkUqMGPYHc3AKhZGy30XVp9SzZRPD5smVDRGjbcjwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGV1VAdUwfca+ih08ONN2Ne0oh84nTYZA=5ptO5wyv6-qHRGPQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Jesse,


For the indigenous sites (and crops) of domestication in South Asia, I
recommend the relevant works of Dorian Fuller, an archaeobotanist at
University College London.


For a fairly recent overview of archaeological evidence for agriculture in
the early historic period, see F. R. Allchin's The Archaeology of Early
Historic South Asia (1995).


For Sanskrit sources in particular, the Hungarian scholar Gyula Wojtilla
has focused on agriculture for decades, ranging from Vedic to k??i??stra.
Fortunately, a good deal of his works are in English, including his History
of K??i??stra (2006) and his edition of the K??yap?yak??is?kti (2010).


I am currently finishing up my dissertation on agriculture, more
specifically on the interaction of agriculture and religion in Sanskrit,
and so I should have a fairly thorough bibliography ?completed? in a few
months. I would be happy to correspond further to isolate works that might
meet your interests more specifically. Obviously what I've given above are
just general starting points.


Best,

Michael (Mike) B. Jones

PhD candidate

University of Texas at Austin

On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 2:06 PM, Jesse Knutson <jknutson at hawaii.edu> wrote:

> Dear List, Can you recommend some good readings on the early/earliest
> history of agriculture in South Asia? Best,J
>
> --
> Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
> Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific
> Languages and Literatures
> University of Hawai'i at M?noa
> 461 Spalding
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr  Sun Jan 24 21:25:29 2016
From: fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr (Arnaud Fournet)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 16 22:25:29 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] IExternal origin of Dravidian
In-Reply-To: <mailman.46.1453654810.16613.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <56A54149.7040406@wanadoo.fr>

Dear Suresh Kolichala

What does "external origin of Dravidian" mean?
external to where? and where from?
I'm interested in understanding your theory.

Besides, how do you determine a supposedly substratic word in Dravidian 
from a supposedly non-substratic word in Dravidina?
According to which criteria?
Could you please develop on these points?

Best regards.
A.F


Le 24/01/2016 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info 
[suresh.kolichala at gmail.com] a ?crit :
> If you believe in my proposed theory of external origin of Dravidian, then
> >the whole question of what constitutes Proto-Dravidian becomes problematic.
> >  Under the usual historical linguistic principles, words and features
> >found only in one branch (South Dravidian, in this case) do not provide
> >evidence for parent language (Proto-Dravidian). But Dravidian linguists
> >have been wrongly reconstructing words and features found only in South
> >Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language under the assumption that
> >Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian. It is a classic catch-22
> >situation.
> >
> >I believe there is an urgent need to reevaluate the Dravidian languages
> >considering the possibility of pre-Dravidian substrata in various branches
> >of the Dravidian languages. Suspending the belief that Tamil represents the
> >most archaic form of Dravidian would be a starting point in this endeavour.






From jknutson at hawaii.edu  Sun Jan 24 23:47:21 2016
From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 16 13:47:21 -1000
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpIXgpKjgpYHgpJfgpYPgpLngpYDgpKTgpYsg4KS94KS44KWN4KSu4KS/?=
Message-ID: <CAAiVBEVEQuW7QnLch+hHiqeYT9QEUfzscYj342p=3WKZ=rBDrQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks to Michael Jones for responding to me off-list with some very
helpful references.

-- 
Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific
Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at M?noa
461 Spalding


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From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Mon Jan 25 03:28:20 2016
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 16 13:58:20 +1030
Subject: [INDOLOGY] book
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrA3A3w-aMvFyopkmKMW3eEW6Ny+B=9+ZwSkA3duFZ0Eyg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

does anyone have a scanned pdf of this book:

Spoken Sanskrit in India : a study of sentence patterns
Author: R N Aralikatti
<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=au%3AAralikatti%2C+R.+N.&qt=hot_author>;

http://www.worldcat.org/title/spoken-sanskrit-in-india-a-study-of-sentence-patterns/oclc/614969697?referer=null&ht=edition




All the best,

Patrick McCartney

PhD Candidate
School of Culture, History & Language
College of the Asia-Pacific
The Australian National University
Canberra, Australia, 0200


Skype - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748



   - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
   <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
   - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
   <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg

<http://goog_371544488>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg

http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g

http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be


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From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com  Mon Jan 25 07:44:01 2016
From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 16 02:44:01 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] External Origin of Dravidian
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eaG3iZ5NwUGChygjdMvGOSz0jJ0kaZf=CPaJpYNg0mAqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOXgviqFjVqw-FaPRsPAs=m12tzNTF-K9H_+oZobuL-fs+Tefg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Hans, Nagaraj, George, Herman and others,

I am overwhelmed by the responses that I have been receiving offline and
online. Having made a bold proposal,  I guess I have my work cut out. I
will try to briefly respond to a few of the questions raised here in this
email, before taking myself off to work on a comprehensive article with
stronger evidence to back up my proposal.

Hans and George: Thanks for the kind responses. I will contact you
privately on very interesting points you raised. I believe voicing was
phonemic in the pre-Dravidian languages, and echo words
and onomatopoeic words found throughout India are infact retentions from
these Paleolithic Hunter-Gatherer languages (Ni??dic languages). For
instance, in Telugu, the following onomatopoeic words, varying only in
voice, have entirely different meanings: *cakacaka, jagajaga; ka?aka?a,
ga?aga?a; pa?apa?a, ba?aba?a; pakapaka, bagabaga* etc.

> I thought each reconstructions were done meticulously case by case
choosing the most plausible root of phonetic change from among those
required to account for all the available forms.

Nagaraj: On the question of Dravidian reconstruction, you are right about
the need for meticulous reconstruction to account for all available forms.
As you know, there have not been comprehensive reconstructions for
Dravidian. DEDR only lists a set of cognate words, but provides no
reconstructions. Krishnamurti proposed a few reconstructions for a few
chosen lexical items and grammatical markers (bound forms) in his 2001 and
2003 books.  BhK, however, argued that under certain circumstances etyma
found only in Proto-South Dravidian can be reconstructed for
Proto-Dravidian. Here is his argument, and I don't agree with it:

"Only four of the Dravidian languages have recorded history and literature
starting from pre-CE to the 11th century. The available dictionaries of the
literary languages are extensive, running over 100,000 lexical items in
each case. The [recorded] vocabulary of the non-literary languages is not
commensurate . . . Therefore, most of the cognates turn up in the four
literary languages, of which Tamil, Malayalam and Kannada belong to South
Dravidian I and Telugu to South Dravidian II. The absence of cognates in
the other subgroups cannot be taken to represent the absence of a concept
or a term in Proto-Dravidian. The presence of a name (a cognate) in the
minor languages and its exclusion in the major languages should lead to a
significant observation that the cognate could be lost in the literary
languages, but not vice versa."

Krishnamurti, as far as I know, has been very careful about positing a
South Dravidian root for Proto-Dravidian. However, there have several
others who applied Tamil words as a Proto-Dravidian reconstructions,
without making a convincing argument for such use.

For example, several of the Dravidian proposals for Indus script equate the
"fish" sign with "star", as the proponents consider the words for 'fish'
and 'star' as homophones in Proto-Dravidian.  I had earlier argued with
Parpola (who is a member of this list) and others on the folly of equating
m?n- 'fish' [DEDR 4885] with mi?-/min-(?) 'to glitter, star, sky' [DEDR
4876]. I believe these two entries are unrelated etymologically. If you
look at the entries for DEDR 4876, you notice a retroflex ? in many
entries, which is somehow absent from Tamil-Malayalam. De-retroflexion of a
nasal is common in the South-Central, Central and North Dravidian
languages. That means, an absence of a retroflex in those languages is not
surprising, but the presence of a retroflex consonant in languages across
subgroups certainly adds credence to its presence in the proto-language.

4876 *Ta. mi?* flash, glitter, lightning; *mi?mi?i* firefly; *mi??u
(mi??i-)* to emit lightning, shine, glitter; *mi??al* lightning; bright
coin; *mi?u?ku (mi?u?ki-)* to glitter, shine, appear bright; *mi?ukku
(mi?ukki-)* to polish, brighten, beautify, make a display; *mi?ukkam,
mi?ukkal* polish, brightness, excellence, showiness, show; *m??* star.
*Ma. minnuka* to flash, shine; *minnal* lightning; *minni* shining; a gem
in ear-rings; *minnikka* to cause to flash or shine; *minnu*lightning;
*minukka* to be fine, glitter; *minukkuka* to polish, varnish, make
glitter; *minukkam* shining, polish; *minu??uka* to glitter; *minuppu*
 sparkling; *m?n* star. *Ko. minc- (minc-)* to flash, glitter, be dazzling,
lighten; *mi?n* star. *To.mic- (mi&cangle;-)* to flash, lighten; *mic*
lightning
(in songs); *mi?n* star. *Ka. mi?a* glittering, sparkling; *mi?aku, mi?uku* to
glitter; *n.* glitter; *minu, mini* sparkling, shining; *minuku, minugu* to
shine, glitter; *n.* lustre, etc.; *mi?cu* to shine, be bright, sparkle,
glitter, flash, lighten; *n.* shine, lustre, brightness, glitter,
lightning; *m?n* star. *Ko?. minn- (minni-)* to lighten, flicker.
*Tu. mi?imi?i* twinkling, glistening, dimly shining; *me??* glitter,
sparkle; *mi?uku, me?ak?, me?uku* sparkling; *mi?(u)kuni, me?(?)kuni,
minukuni, me?cuni, mi?cuni* to shine, sparkle, glitter; *me?ci* brightness,
lightning; (B-K.) *me?ko?i, menk?ri* glowworm. *Te. mi?uku* to glimmer,
sparkle; *n.* glimmer, glimmering, sparkling; *mi?u?gu, mi?u?gu?u, mi?u?gu,
mi?u?gu?u* spark of fire, firefly; *min(u)ku* twinkling, twinkle, glitter,
flash, ray of light; (K. also) *vb.* to glitter, shine; *minuku-minukum-anu,
minukkuranu* to twinkle; *mincu* a flash of lightning, shining, brilliancy;
(K. also) *vb.* to shine as lightning, shine; *minna* a gem;
*minamina* glitter,
shining. *Pa. minnal* spark. *Ga.* (S.3) *munake* firefly. *Go.* (Tr.)
*m?nk?* the stars which a stunned, dazed, or liverish man sees; (W. Ph.)
*minko*, (Mu. Ko.) *mi?ko* firefly; (Mu.) *mi?kom*, (M.) *mi?ko*, (L.)
*mi?kos* star; (Ma.) *min?konj(i)* (*pl.* *min?kosku*) star, firefly
(*Voc.* 2842);
(Tr.) *mi?st?n?*, (W.) *mirs?ln?*, (M.) *mi?k?n?*, (Ph.) *mirs?ln?,
mirs?lt?n?* to flash, of lightning; (SR.) *mi?c?n?* to flash; (A.) *mi?c-*,
(Ma.) *mi?s-* to lighten (*Voc.* 2844); (ASu.) *mi?c-* to glitter;
*mi?cval* lightning;
(L.) *m??s?, m?rc?* id.; (LuS.) *meershinta* to glitter;
*meersheetatta* lightning;
(Mu.) *mir?gul*, (Ma.) *mi??gor?*spark (*Voc.* 2837); (ASu.) *min???* id.
*Kon?a* (BB) *mirs-* to lighten. *Kuwi* (Su.) *m?ih- (m?ist-), mi?s-* to
lighten; (Isr.) *m??h- (m??st-)* id., glitter; *m?ispu* lightening; (S.) *mirsi
mannai* to scintillate; *mrih'nai* to sparkle; (Mah.) *mi?ig-*to shine.
*Kur. b?nk?* star; *binc?* firefly. *Malt. b?n?ke* star.

Furthermore, mi?- 'to glitter, star, sky' is perhaps related to *vi?*-
'sky' [DEDR 5396], which also shows a retroflex nasal.  I believe it is
clearly wrong to rely on Tamil-Malayalam word *mi?* 'flash'*, *to equate
'fish' with 'star', which is fundamental to many of Parpola's readings of
Indus seals. I think it is untenable, as the reconstruction for *mi?*-
'flash', 'light'  should contain a retroflex consonant, and cannot be
equated with *mi?* 'fish' which has an alveolar nasal. As Hans Hock once
said, if you want to represent a star, why draw a fish?

Similarly, Parpola says the following in his recent book:

 "The Dravidian languages appear to have spread to central and southern
India from the area of the Indus Valley. Copper Age cultures of the Deccan,
which derive from the Early and Mature Harappan cultures of the Greater
Indus Valley, spread farming and animal husbandry to central and southern
India, in place of hunter-gathering" (Parpola, Asko (2015). The Roots of
Hinduism: The Early Aryans and the Indus Civilization. Oxford University
Press).

If Parpola believes that the Dravidian languages moved recently into
central and southern India, then, he must agree that they haven't moved
into "empty" area. We know there have been Paleolithic population living in
South and Central India for at least 20,000 years. Then, there must have
been a Dravidian colonization of South India where the pre-existing
hunter-gatherer population have gone through acculturation and
language-shift.  Then, the Peninsular Dravidian langugaes must have
acquired several non-Dravidian features (perhaps some of them are common
across Indian linguistic area) through the influence of the languages of
the HG (hunter-gatherer) population. That means, it is possible that
several archaic features found in Tamil are in fact the archaic features of
the aboriginal languages. As Herman Tieken had suggested earlier, Tamil
cannot be the language of the southernmost region of Dravidian migration,
and at the same time be the most conservative Dravidian language.

Furthermore, Parpola uses Tamil-based reconstructions to argue Dravidian
roots for words with voiced consonants such as gardabha,  bhekuri/ bekuri
etc. without convincingly explanation for the word-initial voiced consonant
in such wide variety of languages. The same Tamil-centric argument is made
for  kiy?mbu without explaining their presence in several Indian languages
including East-Indian languages such as Assamese, Bengali and Oriya ( CDIAL
3465 *k?muka* m. ? Costus speciosus ? lex., ? Colocasia antiquorum ? Bhpr.
[Cf. *k?vuka* -- m. Car., *k?cuka* -- m. Su?r., *kacu* -- m., *kacv?* -- f.
lex., *k?l??a* -- m. Npr., also ? a kind of potherb ? Car.: ? Drav. EWA i
266] B. *k?u* ? Costus speciosus ?, Or. *ka?ka??*, H. *keu??*, *keu?*
m. *k?mbuka
-- *see kr?muk? -- .2609 *kacu* f. ? the esculent root of Arum colocasia. ?
[Cf *kacv?* --f., *k?cuka* -- m. ? Colocasia antiquorum ?, k?muka -- ] A.
*kasu*, B. *kacu*, H. *kac?*, *kacc?)*. He uses palatalization rule to
explain *kiy?mbu* > *c?mpu* in Tamil, but by the same token he doesn't
explain why *kinnara* doesn't become *cinnara* in Tamil.

  I believe many of the features of the Indian linguistic area, commonly
believed to be originated in Dravidian, in fact belong to the languages of
pre-Dravidian substrata (for ex: dative subjects, echo words,
reduplication, compound verbs, datives in -k-/-g- etc.). I also believe all
the words related to the flora and fauna of mainland India must also belong
to the aboriginal languages of India (what I call Ni??dic languages). I
hope to provide a stronger evidence for it in a comprehensive essay on this
topic.

Regards,
Suresh.

Nagaraj gaaru: You said "The usages of ???? r?vu are more with /r/ (??)
than with /?/ (??). As you know, a lot of medieval grammar books on Telugu
discuss the *r?pha-?a-k?ra-nir?ayamu *in great detail*.* They all include ??vu
(????) with ?, and not with r (including *appakav?yamu)*. Here is the verse
listing the words starting with /?/ (??) by T???ap?ka peda-Tirumalac?ryulu,
son of Annam?c?rya (15-16th century):

?????, ?????, ????, ????, ??????????
????, ????, ????, ????, ?????,
????, ????? ????  ?????? ??? ????
???? ???? ????? ???? ?????  (51)
By the way, ????? is the oblique form of ?????. "??????? ????? ????? ?????"
is the complete proverb.


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Mon Jan 25 09:38:59 2016
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 16 09:38:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] External Origin of Dravidian
In-Reply-To: <CAOXgviqFjVqw-FaPRsPAs=m12tzNTF-K9H_+oZobuL-fs+Tefg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522CA58AA@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear Suresh,

As to your note:

"As Herman Tieken had suggested earlier, Tamil cannot be the language of the southernmost region of Dravidian migration, and at the same time be the most conservative Dravidian language."

Unless I understand you wrongly, I said the opposite. The point I tried to make is that if Dravidian migrated from north to south, the southernmost speakers speak the most conservative form of Dravidian, on the assumption that they were the ones who broke away from the original home of Dravidian first and that every next movement further south was from this vanguard. Vice versa, if Dravidian moved from south to north, as the adherents of the Lemuria scenario assume, Tamil as the language nearest to the original home (Lemuria), broke away last and would thus be less conservative that the Dravidian languages further to the north. I added that as some of the adherents of the Lemuria scenario go so far as to argue that all languages of the world have their origin in Lemuria, my mother tongue Dutch at the North Sea would represent a more conservative form of Dravidian than Tamil, an honor Dutch would share with Irish.
Herman


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Suresh Kolichala [suresh.kolichala at gmail.com]
Verzonden: maandag 25 januari 2016 8:44
Aan: Nagaraj Paturi
CC: Indology
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] External Origin of Dravidian

Dear Hans, Nagaraj, George, Herman and others,

I am overwhelmed by the responses that I have been receiving offline and online. Having made a bold proposal,  I guess I have my work cut out. I will try to briefly respond to a few of the questions raised here in this email, before taking myself off to work on a comprehensive article with stronger evidence to back up my proposal.

Hans and George: Thanks for the kind responses. I will contact you privately on very interesting points you raised. I believe voicing was phonemic in the pre-Dravidian languages, and echo words and onomatopoeic words found throughout India are infact retentions from these Paleolithic Hunter-Gatherer languages (Ni??dic languages). For instance, in Telugu, the following onomatopoeic words, varying only in voice, have entirely different meanings: cakacaka, jagajaga; ka?aka?a, ga?aga?a; pa?apa?a, ba?aba?a; pakapaka, bagabaga etc.

> I thought each reconstructions were done meticulously case by case choosing the most plausible root of phonetic change from among those required to account for all the available forms.

Nagaraj: On the question of Dravidian reconstruction, you are right about the need for meticulous reconstruction to account for all available forms. As you know, there have not been comprehensive reconstructions for Dravidian. DEDR only lists a set of cognate words, but provides no reconstructions. Krishnamurti proposed a few reconstructions for a few chosen lexical items and grammatical markers (bound forms) in his 2001 and 2003 books.  BhK, however, argued that under certain circumstances etyma found only in Proto-South Dravidian can be reconstructed for Proto-Dravidian. Here is his argument, and I don't agree with it:

"Only four of the Dravidian languages have recorded history and literature starting from pre-CE to the 11th century. The available dictionaries of the literary languages are extensive, running over 100,000 lexical items in each case. The [recorded] vocabulary of the non-literary languages is not commensurate . . . Therefore, most of the cognates turn up in the four literary languages, of which Tamil, Malayalam and Kannada belong to South Dravidian I and Telugu to South Dravidian II. The absence of cognates in the other subgroups cannot be taken to represent the absence of a concept or a term in Proto-Dravidian. The presence of a name (a cognate) in the minor languages and its exclusion in the major languages should lead to a significant observation that the cognate could be lost in the literary languages, but not vice versa."

Krishnamurti, as far as I know, has been very careful about positing a South Dravidian root for Proto-Dravidian. However, there have several others who applied Tamil words as a Proto-Dravidian reconstructions, without making a convincing argument for such use.

For example, several of the Dravidian proposals for Indus script equate the "fish" sign with "star", as the proponents consider the words for 'fish' and 'star' as homophones in Proto-Dravidian.  I had earlier argued with Parpola (who is a member of this list) and others on the folly of equating m?n- 'fish' [DEDR 4885] with mi?-/min-(?) 'to glitter, star, sky' [DEDR 4876]. I believe these two entries are unrelated etymologically. If you look at the entries for DEDR 4876, you notice a retroflex ? in many entries, which is somehow absent from Tamil-Malayalam. De-retroflexion of a nasal is common in the South-Central, Central and North Dravidian languages. That means, an absence of a retroflex in those languages is not surprising, but the presence of a retroflex consonant in languages across subgroups certainly adds credence to its presence in the proto-language.

4876 Ta. mi? flash, glitter, lightning; mi?mi?i firefly; mi??u (mi??i-) to emit lightning, shine, glitter; mi??al lightning; bright coin; mi?u?ku (mi?u?ki-) to glitter, shine, appear bright; mi?ukku (mi?ukki-) to polish, brighten, beautify, make a display; mi?ukkam, mi?ukkal polish, brightness, excellence, showiness, show; m?? star. Ma. minnuka to flash, shine; minnal lightning; minni shining; a gem in ear-rings; minnikka to cause to flash or shine; minnulightning; minukka to be fine, glitter; minukkuka to polish, varnish, make glitter; minukkam shining, polish; minu??uka to glitter; minuppu sparkling; m?n star. Ko. minc- (minc-) to flash, glitter, be dazzling, lighten; mi?n star. To.mic- (mi&cangle;-) to flash, lighten; mic lightning (in songs); mi?n star. Ka. mi?a glittering, sparkling; mi?aku, mi?uku to glitter; n. glitter; minu, mini sparkling, shining; minuku, minugu to shine, glitter; n. lustre, etc.; mi?cu to shine, be bright, sparkle, glitter, flash, lighten; n. shine, lustre, brightness, glitter, lightning; m?n star. Ko?. minn- (minni-) to lighten, flicker. Tu. mi?imi?i twinkling, glistening, dimly shining; me?? glitter, sparkle; mi?uku, me?ak?, me?uku sparkling; mi?(u)kuni, me?(?)kuni, minukuni, me?cuni, mi?cuni to shine, sparkle, glitter; me?ci brightness, lightning; (B-K.) me?ko?i, menk?ri glowworm. Te. mi?uku to glimmer, sparkle; n. glimmer, glimmering, sparkling; mi?u?gu, mi?u?gu?u, mi?u?gu, mi?u?gu?u spark of fire, firefly; min(u)ku twinkling, twinkle, glitter, flash, ray of light; (K. also) vb. to glitter, shine; minuku-minukum-anu, minukkuranu to twinkle; mincu a flash of lightning, shining, brilliancy; (K. also) vb. to shine as lightning, shine; minna a gem; minamina glitter, shining. Pa. minnal spark. Ga. (S.3) munake firefly. Go. (Tr.) m?nk? the stars which a stunned, dazed, or liverish man sees; (W. Ph.) minko, (Mu. Ko.) mi?ko firefly; (Mu.) mi?kom, (M.) mi?ko, (L.) mi?kos star; (Ma.) min?konj(i) (pl. min?kosku) star, firefly (Voc. 2842); (Tr.) mi?st?n?, (W.) mirs?ln?, (M.) mi?k?n?, (Ph.) mirs?ln?, mirs?lt?n? to flash, of lightning; (SR.) mi?c?n? to flash; (A.) mi?c-, (Ma.) mi?s- to lighten (Voc. 2844); (ASu.) mi?c- to glitter; mi?cval lightning; (L.) m??s?, m?rc? id.; (LuS.) meershinta to glitter; meersheetatta lightning; (Mu.) mir?gul, (Ma.) mi??gor?spark (Voc. 2837); (ASu.) min??? id. Kon?a (BB) mirs- to lighten. Kuwi (Su.) m?ih- (m?ist-), mi?s- to lighten; (Isr.) m??h- (m??st-) id., glitter; m?ispu lightening; (S.) mirsi mannai to scintillate; mrih'nai to sparkle; (Mah.) mi?ig-to shine. Kur. b?nk? star; binc? firefly. Malt. b?n?ke star.

Furthermore, mi?- 'to glitter, star, sky' is perhaps related to vi?- 'sky' [DEDR 5396], which also shows a retroflex nasal.  I believe it is clearly wrong to rely on Tamil-Malayalam word mi? 'flash', to equate 'fish' with 'star', which is fundamental to many of Parpola's readings of Indus seals. I think it is untenable, as the reconstruction for mi?- 'flash', 'light'  should contain a retroflex consonant, and cannot be equated with mi? 'fish' which has an alveolar nasal. As Hans Hock once said, if you want to represent a star, why draw a fish?

Similarly, Parpola says the following in his recent book:

 "The Dravidian languages appear to have spread to central and southern India from the area of the Indus Valley. Copper Age cultures of the Deccan, which derive from the Early and Mature Harappan cultures of the Greater Indus Valley, spread farming and animal husbandry to central and southern India, in place of hunter-gathering" (Parpola, Asko (2015). The Roots of Hinduism: The Early Aryans and the Indus Civilization. Oxford University Press).

If Parpola believes that the Dravidian languages moved recently into central and southern India, then, he must agree that they haven't moved into "empty" area. We know there have been Paleolithic population living in South and Central India for at least 20,000 years. Then, there must have been a Dravidian colonization of South India where the pre-existing hunter-gatherer population have gone through acculturation and language-shift.  Then, the Peninsular Dravidian langugaes must have acquired several non-Dravidian features (perhaps some of them are common across Indian linguistic area) through the influence of the languages of the HG (hunter-gatherer) population. That means, it is possible that several archaic features found in Tamil are in fact the archaic features of the aboriginal languages. As Herman Tieken had suggested earlier, Tamil cannot be the language of the southernmost region of Dravidian migration, and at the same time be the most conservative Dravidian language.

Furthermore, Parpola uses Tamil-based reconstructions to argue Dravidian roots for words with voiced consonants such as gardabha,  bhekuri/ bekuri etc. without convincingly explanation for the word-initial voiced consonant in such wide variety of languages. The same Tamil-centric argument is made for  kiy?mbu without explaining their presence in several Indian languages including East-Indian languages such as Assamese, Bengali and Oriya ( CDIAL 3465 k?muka m. ? Costus speciosus ? lex., ? Colocasia antiquorum ? Bhpr. [Cf. k?vuka -- m. Car., k?cuka -- m. Su?r., kacu -- m., kacv? -- f. lex., k?l??a -- m. Npr., also ? a kind of potherb ? Car.: ? Drav. EWA i 266] B. k?u ? Costus speciosus ?, Or. ka?ka??, H. keu??, keu? m. k?mbuka -- see kr?muk? -- .2609 kacu f. ? the esculent root of Arum colocasia. ? [Cf kacv? --f., k?cuka -- m. ? Colocasia antiquorum ?, k?muka -- ] A. kasu, B. kacu, H. kac?, kacc?). He uses palatalization rule to explain kiy?mbu > c?mpu in Tamil, but by the same token he doesn't explain why kinnara doesn't become cinnara in Tamil.

  I believe many of the features of the Indian linguistic area, commonly believed to be originated in Dravidian, in fact belong to the languages of pre-Dravidian substrata (for ex: dative subjects, echo words, reduplication, compound verbs, datives in -k-/-g- etc.). I also believe all the words related to the flora and fauna of mainland India must also belong to the aboriginal languages of India (what I call Ni??dic languages). I hope to provide a stronger evidence for it in a comprehensive essay on this topic.

Regards,
Suresh.

Nagaraj gaaru: You said "The usages of ???? r?vu are more with /r/ (??) than with /?/ (??). As you know, a lot of medieval grammar books on Telugu discuss the r?pha-?a-k?ra-nir?ayamu in great detail. They all include ??vu (????) with ?, and not with r (including appakav?yamu). Here is the verse listing the words starting with /?/ (??) by T???ap?ka peda-Tirumalac?ryulu, son of Annam?c?rya (15-16th century):

?????, ?????, ????, ????, ??????????
????, ????, ????, ????, ?????,
????, ????? ????  ?????? ??? ????
???? ???? ????? ???? ?????  (51)
By the way, ????? is the oblique form of ?????. "??????? ????? ????? ?????" is the complete proverb.


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From jacob at fabularasa.dk  Mon Jan 25 11:17:16 2016
From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 16 12:17:16 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Online Sanskrit Study Programs
Message-ID: <31077597d9e8622e463d45f226779854@fabularasa.dk>

Dear list,

The University of Copenhagen is currently looking into the possibility 
of setting up online study programs in various disciplines related to 
Asian studies, including Indo-Tibetan studies (language-learning as well 
as more general courses introducing various subjects). I would therefore 
be interested to know of other universities which offer such programs, 
and what the experience with them has been (e.g. which kinds of courses 
have the most potential for being successful).

Kind regards,
Jacob

Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
PhD Fellow (Indology)
Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
University of Copenhagen
Denmark





From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Jan 25 16:47:09 2016
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 16 09:47:09 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Manuscripts on My Mind, no. 17, January 2016
In-Reply-To: <LYRIS-3076903-1752320-2016.01.25-09.53.20--wujastyk#gmail.com@list.slu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CfHgJQWH8TiHtOF2b1c=kEE95DYPdhdrW7k3xvhrMGC6A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

Dr Susan L'Engle has for many years produced a fine newsletter on the study
of manuscripts.  However, there's never a word about non-European MSS.

I corresponded with Dr L'Engle last year, and she said she would be
delighted to include information about Indian and other manuscripts, if
only someone would send her publishable submissions.

May I therefore suggest that if you have something that you would like to
share with a wider community of people interested in medieval manuscripts,
or if you wish to publicize your project, you could consider *Manuscripts
on My Mind* as a place to send your information.

Best wishes,
Dominik Wujastyk

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk* <http://ualberta.Academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
University of Alberta, Canada

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: LEngle, Susan <lengles at slu.edu>
Date: 25 January 2016 at 08:53
Subject: Manuscripts on My Mind, no. 17, January 2016
To: wujastyk at gmail.com


Dear Colleagues and Manuscript Lovers,

A little late, but you may now access the latest issue of Manuscripts on My
Mind, no. 17, January 2016, on our website:
http://lib.slu.edu/special-collections/publications/manuscripts-on-my-mind
<http://list.slu.edu/t/1752320/3076903/2486/4/>. I hope you enjoy it; many
people have sent contributions.

Yours in manuscript studies,

Susan L'Engle, Ph.D.
Assistant Director, Vatican Film Library
Editor, *Manuscripta*
Pius XII Memorial Library
Saint Louis University
3650 Lindell Boulevard
St. Louis, Missouri, 63108
Tel. (314) 977-3084 / Fax (314) 977-3108
Email: lengles at slu.edu
http://lib.slu.edu/special-collections
<http://list.slu.edu/t/1752320/3076903/2056/5/>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 06:50:54 2016
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 16 12:20:54 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] External Origin of Dravidian
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eax1brBpWt5rs3Rm-vyU9-AJ8H2YTDQicE4cMi_X=xtzA@mail.gmail.com>

Suresh gaaru,

1.
>As you know, there have not been comprehensive reconstructions for
Dravidian.

------- Entire edifice of the subgroup classifications collapses if there
are no reconstructions of the proto form, because the vital basis of
subgrouping is the common path of change from the proto form. Why I said
'cleaning the slate' is exactly this. Once you decide to redo the
reconstructions afresh, no more use of the existing subgroup notions. Thus
it is better to say 'what is being called as south dravidian' or 'what is
being called as south-central' while referring to the existing
classifications.

2. The word nishaada being borrowed by you to refer to the language
elements that can not be accounted for through the presently known language
family analyses, itself is from the Sanskritic sources. Those sources
reflect a picture of multiple such groups. So it may be useful to look for
such multiple bases rather than a single one while tracing the sources this
time. "Convergence" of all such multiple sources into a commonality that
rendered the multiplicity difficult to trace should also be highlighted and
sufficiently accounted for.

Regards,

Nagaraj

????/???? :
Sharing snapshots from Sri Suryarayandhranighantuvu, not for the meaning
part but only for the usage citations part. S'akaTa rEpha gets an
etymological justification from the Tamil iR /iL. rEvaDi /rEvani are both
oblique forms. Di =D +i ; ni = n + i ; n has Tamil based source.


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 08:14:20 2016
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 16 13:44:20 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject)
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eY7WKj27w3Xpisbqd+-CN-L22kCwmPMfdJs=zQOnKe4CA@mail.gmail.com>

resending the pprevious  posts with images shared.

Suresh gaaru,

1.
>*As you know, there have not been comprehensive reconstructions for
*Dravidian.

------- Entire edifice of the subgroup classifications collapses if there
are no reconstructions of the proto form, because the vital basis of
subgrouping is the common path of change from the proto form. Why I said
'cleaning the slate' is exactly this. Once you decide to redo the
reconstructions afresh, no more use of the existing subgroup notions. Thus
it is better to say 'what is being called as south dravidian' or 'what is
being called as south-central' while referring to the existing
classifications.

2. The word nishaada being borrowed by you to refer to the language
elements that can not be accounted for through the presently known language
family analyses, itself is from the Sanskritic sources. Those sources
reflect a picture of multiple such groups. So it may be useful to look for
such multiple bases rather than a single one while tracing the sources this
time. "Convergence" of all such multiple sources into a commonality that
rendered the multiplicity difficult to trace should also be highlighted and
sufficiently accounted for.

Regards,

Nagaraj

????/???? :
Sharing snapshots from Sri Suryarayandhranighantuvu, not for the meaning
part but only for the usage citations part. S'akaTa rEpha gets an
etymological justification from the Tamil iR /iL. rEvaDi /rEvani are both
oblique forms. Di =D +i ; ni = n + i ; n has Tamil based source.



-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From pf8 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Jan 26 21:26:47 2016
From: pf8 at soas.ac.uk (Peter Flugel)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 16 21:26:47 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] 16th Annual Lecture & 18th Jaina Studies Workshop at SOAS, 18-19 March 2016
Message-ID: <CAF+JJrmR252ZmnQFd6AJESYfApdDm2eA+5RCfaJzNfkuGfEtZw@mail.gmail.com>

16th Annual Jaina Lecture: Newly Discovered Jaina Mathematical Manuscripts
and their ContentAnupam Jain (Government Degree College, Sanwer, Indore)

*Date:* 18 March 2016*Time:* 6:00 PM

*Finishes:* 18 March 2016*Time:* 7:30 PM

*Venue:* Brunei Gallery*Room:* Brunei Gallery Lecture Theatre

*Type of Event:* Annual Lecture
Further details..
<http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies/events/18mar2016-annual-jaina-lecture-newly-discovered-jaina-mathematical-manuscripts-and-their-content.html>


18th Jaina Studies Workshop: Jainism and Science
[image: Jaina manuscripts - 20160318]

Jaina manuscripts

*Date:* 19 March 2016*Time:* 9:00 AM

*Finishes:* 19 March 2016*Time:* 6:00 PM

*Venue:* Brunei Gallery*Room:* Brunei Gallery Lecture Theatre

*Type of Event:* Conference

*Workshop*

*Saturday, 19th March 2016, SOAS, Brunei Gallery Lecture Theatre*
TimeEvent
9.00 Tea and Coffee
*First Session: Evidence and Proof in Jaina Science & Philosophy*
9.15 Muni Mahendra Kumar (Jain Vishva Bharati Institute, India, Skype)
The Enigma of Cosmogony
9.45 Marie-H?l?ne Gorisse (SOAS University of London, Ghent University,
Belgium)
*Scientific Knowledge in Jainism*
10.15 Ana Baj?elj (Polonsky Academy, The Van Leer Jerusalem Institute,
Israel)
*Upak?ra in Akala?ka's Tattv?rthav?rtika*
10.45 Tea & Coffee
*Second Session: Jaina Theories of Time*
11.15 Rajmal Jain (Kadi Sarva Vishvavidyalay, Ahmedabad) & Anupam Jain
(Government Degree College, Sanwer, Indore)
*Space and Time: In the Perspectives of Jainism and Science*
11.45 Sama?? Unnata Praj?? (SOAS & Jain Vi?va Bh?rat? Ladnun)
*Jaina Doctrine of Timelessness*
12.15 Catherine Morice-Singh (Universit? Sorbonne Nouvelle - Paris 3)
*The Treatment of Series in the*Ga?itas?rasa?graha* of Mah?v?r?c?rya and
its Connections to Jaina Cosmology*
12.45 Group Photo
13.00 Lunch: Brunei Gallery Suite
*Third Session: Jaina Mathematicians*
14.00 Ratna Kumar Shah (Pune, India)
*Jinabhadraga?i K?am??rama?a: Computational Wizard of Sixth Century C.E.*
14.30 Alessandra Petrocchi (University of Cambridge, UK)
*Si?hatilakas?ri?s Mathematical Commentary (13th c. CE) on the Ga?itatilaka*
15.00 Johannes Bronkhorst (University of Lausanne, Switzerland)
*Jaina versus Brahmanical Mathematicians*
15.30 Tea & Coffee
*Fourth Session: When Science Meets Fiction*
16.00 Basile Lecl?re (Universit? de Lyon 3, France)
*Architectural Science in Jain Poetry: Descriptions of Kum?rap?la?s
Temples *
16.30 Christine Chojnacki (University Lyon 3, France)
*When Science Meets Fiction: On Technical Passages in Jain Medieval Novels*
17.00 Peter Fl?gel (SOAS)
*Jainism and Science*
Brief Break
*Roundtable*
17.45

Addressing the question:"Is Jaina philosophy compatible with the modern
sciences?"

In the Chair: Shamil Chandaria (London)

Featuring:Johannes Bronkhorst (University of Lausanne), Kalyan Gangwal
(Pune), Anupam Jain (Government Degree College, Sanwer, Indore), Laxmi
Chandra Jain (Government Engineering College, Jabalpur), Mukul Shah
(London), Ratnakumar Shah (Pune), Sanjeev Sogani (Gyan Sagar Science
Foundation, New Delhi), Samani Unnata Pragya (SOAS & Jain Vishva Bharati
Institute, Ladnun), And others (to be confirmed)
18.00 Final RemarksBook of AbstractsJainism and Science: Book of abstracts
(pdf; 559kb) <http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies/events/file109087.pdf>
RegistrationFree and open to all.

*Contact email:* centres at soas.ac.uk

*Contact Tel:* +44 (0)20 7898 4892

*Sponsor:* GyanSagar Foundation, JivDaya Foundation and Anil and Lata
Chandaria

-- 
Dr Peter Fl?gel
Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies
Department of Religions and Philosophies
Faculty of Arts and Humanities
School of Oriental and African Studies
University of London
Thornhaugh Street
Russell Square
London WC1H OXG

Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776
E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk
http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 23:02:31 2016
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 16 16:02:31 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Online Sanskrit Study Programs
In-Reply-To: <31077597d9e8622e463d45f226779854@fabularasa.dk>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Ce8Fx=G13TVq52_mcxTGYB9ng-=5NvLNoLQr-cUrFLNYA@mail.gmail.com>

The Wikipedia page on MOOCS gives a good account of the debate surrounding
the usefulness of this form of teaching.  (Or it did, when I read it late
last year :-).
Dominik Wujastyk
?


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From John.Brockington at btinternet.com  Wed Jan 27 12:16:02 2016
From: John.Brockington at btinternet.com (John Brockington)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 16 12:16:02 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_John_and_Mary_Brockington_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a_archive?=
In-Reply-To: <56A8AEDC.8070808@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <56A8B502.5080405@btinternet.com>

Dear Colleagues,

We are pleased to announce that we have just deposited on the Oxford 
Research Archive our material relating to the development and spread of 
the R?ma narrative (pre-modern), so that it can be available for others 
to consult even in its present, unfinished state.It can be accessed at 
<http://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:8df9647a-8002-45ff-b37e-7effb669768b>http://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:8df9647a-8002-45ff-b37e-7effb669768b 
(or you can find it via the Bodleian Libraries website, under ORA, by 
looking for its title).

Here is a description of it adapted from the abstract mounted on the 
website:

This material is part of our continuing attempt to survey presentations 
of the R?ma story as it has been developed from its origin in the 
so-called /V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a/, through transformations in all genres, 
media, languages, religions and geographical areas, until roughly the 
end of the eighteenth century.However, later material has also been used 
if it preserves motifs or records trends relevant to the earlier period, 
though not where it introduces new developments.In order to explore the 
crucial role played by sculpture and paintings in the transmission and 
development of the narrative, we have placed visual material 
side-by-side with verbal (narratives presented in words, whether written 
or spoken).

The basis for the survey is: a Bibliographic Inventory providing 
references to everything of value consulted (and a list of our own 
publications); a detailed tabulation of the Narrative Elements employed 
and modified by successive tellers to build up the story; Background 
Notes and photographs; and unpublished Drafts surveying the material or 
arisingfrom it. Guidance Notes give detailed instructions for use.

The material is a joint project: John has compiled the Bibliographies, 
composed the Draft on Development and many of the notes, and taken the 
photographs; Mary has identified and tabulated the Narrative Elements, 
and supplied some of the Drafts and other notes.

The material is far from complete, and we hope to be able to update it 
from time to time, and to produce further analyses and syntheses of the 
material.From the nature of its wide scope, much of the compilation has 
had to be made from translations into the major European languages, or 
from summaries found in secondary literature, resulting in the omission 
of material inaccessible by these means; regrettably, we also have no 
way of knowing whether the translation or summary used has been totally 
reliable.Where possible, always check carefully before placing too much 
reliance on it. Wewill warmly welcome any corrections or supplementary 
information from other scholars specialising in individual fields.With 
all its deficiencies, weoffer this inventory as a tool to facilitate 
further research, not as a substitute for such research, and we will be 
pleased to learn of any use to which our work is put.

Because of the nature of our own contacts this message is being sent 
primarily to other Indologists but, if any of you are aware of 
colleagues in other fields (for example Southeast Asian languages or 
visual culture) who might be interested, do please pass the information 
on to them ? and similarly, if anyone has access to academic lists on 
which it could be posted, we would be grateful for its being sent to 
them.We shall ourselves be sending it to the INDOLOGY and RISA lists.

With all good wishes

John and Mary

John Brockington
Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit, University of Edinburgh
Vice President, International Association of Sanskrit Studies

Mary Brockington
Research Fellow, International Association of Sanskrit Studies









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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed Jan 27 14:00:23 2016
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 16 09:00:23 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09John_and_Mary_Brockington_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a_archive?=
In-Reply-To: <56A8B502.5080405@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcvHLe+sTXkAnfxLr37BDZ0eHYtTRzg9F1nkWExhVgsMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you so much, John, for this wonderful gift to Sanskrit scholarship.

Madhav Deshpande

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 7:16 AM, John Brockington <
John.Brockington at btinternet.com> wrote:

> Dear  Colleagues,
>
> We are pleased to announce that we have just deposited on the Oxford
> Research Archive our material relating to the development and spread of the
> R?ma narrative (pre-modern), so that it can be available for others to
> consult even in its present, unfinished state.  It can be accessed at
> <http://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:8df9647a-8002-45ff-b37e-7effb669768b>
> <http://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:8df9647a-8002-45ff-b37e-7effb669768b>
> http://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:8df9647a-8002-45ff-b37e-7effb669768b (or
> you can find it via the Bodleian Libraries website, under ORA, by looking
> for its title).
>
> Here is a description of it adapted from the abstract mounted on the
> website:
>
> This material is part of our continuing attempt to survey presentations of
> the R?ma story as it has been developed from its origin in the so-called *V?lm?ki
> R?m?ya?a*, through transformations in all genres, media, languages,
> religions and geographical areas, until roughly the end of the eighteenth
> century.  However, later material has also been used if it preserves
> motifs or records trends relevant to the earlier period, though not where
> it introduces new developments.  In order to explore the crucial role
> played by sculpture and paintings in the transmission and development of
> the narrative, we have placed visual material side-by-side with verbal
> (narratives presented in words, whether written or spoken).
>
> The basis for the survey is: a Bibliographic Inventory providing
> references to everything of value consulted (and a list of our own
> publications); a detailed tabulation of the Narrative Elements employed and
> modified by successive tellers to build up the story; Background Notes and
> photographs; and unpublished Drafts surveying the material or arising  from
> it.  Guidance Notes give detailed instructions for use.
>
> The material is a joint project: John has compiled the Bibliographies,
> composed the Draft on Development and many of the notes, and taken the
> photographs; Mary has identified and tabulated the Narrative Elements, and
> supplied some of the Drafts and other notes.
>
> The material is far from complete, and we hope to be able to update it
> from time to time, and to produce further analyses and syntheses of the
> material.  From the nature of its wide scope, much of the compilation has
> had to be made from translations into the major European languages, or from
> summaries found in secondary literature, resulting in the omission of
> material inaccessible by these means;  regrettably, we also have no way
> of knowing whether the translation or summary used has been totally
> reliable.  Where possible, always check carefully before placing too much
> reliance on it.  We will warmly welcome any corrections or supplementary
> information from other scholars specialising in individual fields.  With
> all its deficiencies, we offer this inventory as a tool to facilitate
> further research, not as a substitute for such research, and we will be
> pleased to learn of any use to which our work is put.
>
> Because of the nature of our own contacts this message is being sent
> primarily to other Indologists but, if any of you are aware of colleagues
> in other fields (for example Southeast Asian languages or visual culture)
> who might be interested, do please pass the information on to them ? and
> similarly, if anyone has access to academic lists on which it could be
> posted, we would be grateful for its being sent to them.  We shall
> ourselves be sending it to the INDOLOGY and RISA lists.
>
> With all good wishes
>
> John and Mary
>
> John Brockington
> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit, University of Edinburgh
> Vice President, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
>
> Mary Brockington
> Research Fellow, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 14:54:26 2016
From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 16 09:54:26 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09John_and_Mary_Brockington_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a_archive?=
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzcvHLe+sTXkAnfxLr37BDZ0eHYtTRzg9F1nkWExhVgsMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOXgviqMugCxCJSP=kYZSu-WzUX73eHkLLUjuY1Fkdm_YtdbAg@mail.gmail.com>

Wonderful gift indeed, John and Mary!

One minor issue: in your background material bundle, the document titled
"dates of texts (tentative).pdf" has the left side of the table cut off,
and many dates and names of the Pur??as in the first column appear chopped.
Could you reload a better copy, if possible?

Thanks,
Suresh.


On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 9:00 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

> Thank you so much, John, for this wonderful gift to Sanskrit scholarship.
>
> Madhav Deshpande
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 7:16 AM, John Brockington <
> John.Brockington at btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear  Colleagues,
>>
>> We are pleased to announce that we have just deposited on the Oxford
>> Research Archive our material relating to the development and spread of the
>> R?ma narrative (pre-modern), so that it can be available for others to
>> consult even in its present, unfinished state.  It can be accessed at
>> <http://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:8df9647a-8002-45ff-b37e-7effb669768b>
>> <http://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:8df9647a-8002-45ff-b37e-7effb669768b>
>> http://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:8df9647a-8002-45ff-b37e-7effb669768b (or
>> you can find it via the Bodleian Libraries website, under ORA, by looking
>> for its title).
>>
>> Here is a description of it adapted from the abstract mounted on the
>> website:
>>
>> This material is part of our continuing attempt to survey presentations
>> of the R?ma story as it has been developed from its origin in the so-called *V?lm?ki
>> R?m?ya?a*, through transformations in all genres, media, languages,
>> religions and geographical areas, until roughly the end of the eighteenth
>> century.  However, later material has also been used if it preserves
>> motifs or records trends relevant to the earlier period, though not where
>> it introduces new developments.  In order to explore the crucial role
>> played by sculpture and paintings in the transmission and development of
>> the narrative, we have placed visual material side-by-side with verbal
>> (narratives presented in words, whether written or spoken).
>>
>> The basis for the survey is: a Bibliographic Inventory providing
>> references to everything of value consulted (and a list of our own
>> publications); a detailed tabulation of the Narrative Elements employed and
>> modified by successive tellers to build up the story; Background Notes and
>> photographs; and unpublished Drafts surveying the material or arising  from
>> it.  Guidance Notes give detailed instructions for use.
>>
>> The material is a joint project: John has compiled the Bibliographies,
>> composed the Draft on Development and many of the notes, and taken the
>> photographs; Mary has identified and tabulated the Narrative Elements, and
>> supplied some of the Drafts and other notes.
>>
>> The material is far from complete, and we hope to be able to update it
>> from time to time, and to produce further analyses and syntheses of the
>> material.  From the nature of its wide scope, much of the compilation
>> has had to be made from translations into the major European languages, or
>> from summaries found in secondary literature, resulting in the omission of
>> material inaccessible by these means;  regrettably, we also have no way
>> of knowing whether the translation or summary used has been totally
>> reliable.  Where possible, always check carefully before placing too
>> much reliance on it.  We will warmly welcome any corrections or
>> supplementary information from other scholars specialising in individual
>> fields.  With all its deficiencies, we offer this inventory as a tool to
>> facilitate further research, not as a substitute for such research, and we
>> will be pleased to learn of any use to which our work is put.
>>
>> Because of the nature of our own contacts this message is being sent
>> primarily to other Indologists but, if any of you are aware of colleagues
>> in other fields (for example Southeast Asian languages or visual culture)
>> who might be interested, do please pass the information on to them ? and
>> similarly, if anyone has access to academic lists on which it could be
>> posted, we would be grateful for its being sent to them.  We shall
>> ourselves be sending it to the INDOLOGY and RISA lists.
>>
>> With all good wishes
>>
>> John and Mary
>>
>> John Brockington
>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit, University of Edinburgh
>> Vice President, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
>>
>> Mary Brockington
>> Research Fellow, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
> Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
> 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
> The University of Michigan
> Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From rpg at berkeley.edu  Wed Jan 27 17:41:16 2016
From: rpg at berkeley.edu (Robert Goldman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 16 09:41:16 -0800
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_John_and_Mary_Brockington_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a_archive?=
In-Reply-To: <56A8B502.5080405@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <AA678DBB-D60C-43B3-AD42-3ADA9D96976B@berkeley.edu>

Dear John and Mary,

Thank you very much for making available this  treasure store of scholarship and scholarly resources on the R?m?ya?a. It will certainly be a boon to scholars working on all aspects of the R?ma story in all of its innumerable  and endlessly diverse linguistic, regional and religious manifestations.

With all good wishes to you both.

Bob Goldman
Dr. R. P.  Goldman
Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540
The University of California at Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720-2540
Tel: 510-642-4089
Fax: 510-642-2409



> On Jan 27, 2016, at 4:16 AM, John Brockington <John.Brockington at btinternet.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear  Colleagues,
> We are pleased to announce that we have just deposited on the Oxford Research Archive our material relating to the development and spread of the R?ma narrative (pre-modern), so that it can be available for others to consult even in its present, unfinished state.  It can be accessed at  <http://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:8df9647a-8002-45ff-b37e-7effb669768b> <http://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:8df9647a-8002-45ff-b37e-7effb669768b>http://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:8df9647a-8002-45ff-b37e-7effb669768b <http://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:8df9647a-8002-45ff-b37e-7effb669768b> (or you can find it via the Bodleian Libraries website, under ORA, by looking for its title).
> 
> Here is a description of it adapted from the abstract mounted on the website:
> 
> This material is part of our continuing attempt to survey presentations of the R?ma story as it has been developed from its origin in the so-called V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a, through transformations in all genres, media, languages,                 religions and geographical areas, until roughly the end of the eighteenth century.  However, later material has also been used if it preserves motifs or records trends relevant to the earlier period, though not where it introduces new developments.  In order to explore the crucial role played by sculpture and paintings in the transmission and development of the narrative, we have placed visual material side-by-side with verbal (narratives presented in words, whether written or spoken).
> The basis for the survey is: a Bibliographic Inventory providing references to everything of value consulted (and a list of our own publications); a detailed tabulation of the Narrative Elements employed and modified by successive tellers to build up the story; Background Notes and photographs; and unpublished Drafts surveying the material or arising  from it.  Guidance Notes give detailed instructions for use.
> The material is a joint project: John has compiled the Bibliographies, composed the Draft on Development and many of the notes, and taken the photographs; Mary has identified and tabulated the Narrative Elements, and supplied some of the Drafts and other notes.
> The material is far from complete, and we hope to be able to update it from time to time, and to produce further analyses and syntheses of the material.  From the nature of its wide scope, much of the compilation has had to be made from translations into the major European languages, or from summaries found in secondary literature, resulting in the omission of material inaccessible by these means;  regrettably, we also have no way of knowing whether the translation or summary used has been totally reliable.  Where possible, always check carefully before placing too much reliance on it.  We will warmly welcome any corrections or supplementary information from other scholars specialising in individual fields.  With all its deficiencies, we offer this inventory as a tool to facilitate further research, not as a substitute for such research, and we will be pleased to learn of any use to which our work is put.
> Because of the nature of our own contacts this message is being sent primarily to other Indologists but, if any of you are aware of colleagues in other fields (for example Southeast Asian languages or visual culture) who might be interested, do please pass the information on to them ? and similarly, if anyone has access to academic lists on which it could be posted, we would be grateful for its being sent to them.  We shall ourselves be sending it to the INDOLOGY and RISA lists.
> With all good wishes
> 
> John and Mary
> 
> 
> John Brockington
> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit, University of Edinburgh
> Vice President, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
> 
> Mary Brockington
> Research Fellow, International Association of Sanskrit Studies 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Wed Jan 27 20:45:19 2016
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 16 20:45:19 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] DNA and caste
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522CADDEF@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

For those interested in DNA/genomics and castes in India, see the attachment. I got the article from my eldest son, who works in the field of bio-medical science.
Herman
PNAS-2016-Basu-1513197113.pdf? (979 kB?)<https://webmail.campus.leidenuniv.nl/owa/#>?[In browser openen<https://webmail.campus.leidenuniv.nl/owa/#>?]


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Wed Jan 27 20:55:04 2016
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 16 20:55:04 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522CADE0A@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Here is the link, for those who cannot open the attachment:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>


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From rajam at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 28 02:04:29 2016
From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 16 18:04:29 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522CADE0A@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <C0E15F43-B987-4F33-AC21-33702C0321CE@earthlink.net>

Yet another cookie-cutter study resulting in a cotton-candy result! sigh.

Regards,
rajam

> On Jan 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
> 
> Here is the link, for those who cannot open the attachment:
> 
> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23 <http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23>
> 
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>_______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From rajam at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 28 02:42:15 2016
From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 16 18:42:15 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
In-Reply-To: <C0E15F43-B987-4F33-AC21-33702C0321CE@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <D93EC9BE-BAB0-40E3-8312-F9DD0ABF25CB@earthlink.net>

My naive, honest, and sincere question: Who decided/declared that the brahmins are the ?upper caste?? and what was/is the criterion for such designation?

As a brahmin myself, why am I not able to understand/accept such epithet?

Thanks and regards,
rajam




> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:04 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> Yet another cookie-cutter study resulting in a cotton-candy result! sigh.
> 
> Regards,
> rajam
> 
>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl <mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>> wrote:
>> 
>> Here is the link, for those who cannot open the attachment:
>> 
>> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23 <http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23>
>> 
>> Herman Tieken
>> Stationsweg 58
>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>> The Netherlands
>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>_______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 03:05:29 2016
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 16 13:35:29 +1030
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
In-Reply-To: <D93EC9BE-BAB0-40E3-8312-F9DD0ABF25CB@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrDiCq4SKJ+-UXvysJiY-RM6NEitkx5fb2mo_-=fZdqG3Q@mail.gmail.com>

yajurveda 30.11  / ?gveda 10.90  could be good places to start?

All the best,

Patrick McCartney

PhD Candidate
School of Culture, History & Language
College of the Asia-Pacific
The Australian National University
Canberra, Australia, 0200


Skype - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748



   - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
   <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
   - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
   <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg

<http://goog_371544488>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg

http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g

http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be



On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:

> My naive, honest, and sincere question: *Who* decided/declared that the
> brahmins are the ?upper caste?? and *what* was/is the criterion for such
> designation?
>
> As a brahmin myself, why am I not able to understand/accept such epithet?
>
> Thanks and regards,
> rajam
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:04 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Yet another cookie-cutter study resulting in a cotton-candy result! sigh.
>
> Regards,
> rajam
>
> On Jan 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <
> H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
>
> Here is the link, for those who cannot open the attachment:
>
>
> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23
>
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From rajam at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 28 03:15:25 2016
From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 16 19:15:25 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
In-Reply-To: <CAEzwJrDiCq4SKJ+-UXvysJiY-RM6NEitkx5fb2mo_-=fZdqG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44DF101E-FE89-40B1-9F76-E4E124C29A8A@earthlink.net>

Dear Patrick McCartney,

Many thanks. Currently I don?t have access to several resources including a library. So, could you please recite yajurveda 30.11  / ?gveda 10.90 and explain the contents?

Thanks and regards,
rajam



> On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:05 PM, patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> yajurveda 30.11  / ?gveda 10.90  could be good places to start? 
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Patrick McCartney 
> 
> PhD Candidate 
> School of Culture, History & Language
> College of the Asia-Pacific
> The Australian National University
> Canberra, Australia, 0200
> 
> 
> Skype - psdmccartney
> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
> 
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
> https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg>
> 
>  <http://goog_371544488/>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg>
> 
> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g <http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g>
> 
> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be <http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be>
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net <mailto:rajam at earthlink.net>> wrote:
> My naive, honest, and sincere question: Who decided/declared that the brahmins are the ?upper caste?? and what was/is the criterion for such designation?
> 
> As a brahmin myself, why am I not able to understand/accept such epithet?
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> rajam
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:04 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net <mailto:rajam at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Yet another cookie-cutter study resulting in a cotton-candy result! sigh.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> rajam
>> 
>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl <mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Here is the link, for those who cannot open the attachment:
>>> 
>>> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23 <http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23>
>>> 
>>> Herman Tieken
>>> Stationsweg 58
>>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>> The Netherlands
>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>_______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 



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From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 03:37:49 2016
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 16 14:07:49 +1030
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
In-Reply-To: <44DF101E-FE89-40B1-9F76-E4E124C29A8A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrDTRzcZ9LNewMQQeXP+h0-AWpHj-gxt1Sf2Aaatbk31Aw@mail.gmail.com>

Purusha Suktam - explains how Brahmins form the head, Ksatriyas the arms,
Vaishyas the body, Shudras the feet  - actually 10.90.12

In my ethnographic research I have heard this quoted countless times by
Brahmins as justification as to why they consider themselves superior to
the other classes/castes.

All the best,

Patrick McCartney

PhD Candidate
School of Culture, History & Language
College of the Asia-Pacific
The Australian National University
Canberra, Australia, 0200


Skype - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748



   - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
   <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
   - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
   <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg

<http://goog_371544488>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg

http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g

http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be



On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:45 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Dear Patrick McCartney,
>
> Many thanks. Currently I don?t have access to several resources including
> a library. So, could you please recite yajurveda 30.11  / ?gveda 10.90 and
> explain the contents?
>
> Thanks and regards,
> rajam
>
>
>
> On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:05 PM, patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> yajurveda 30.11  / ?gveda 10.90  could be good places to start?
>
> All the best,
>
> Patrick McCartney
>
> PhD Candidate
> School of Culture, History & Language
> College of the Asia-Pacific
> The Australian National University
> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>
>
> Skype - psdmccartney
> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
>
>
>
>    - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
>    <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
>    - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
>    <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg
>
> <http://goog_371544488/>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg
>
> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g
>
> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> My naive, honest, and sincere question: *Who* decided/declared that the
>> brahmins are the ?upper caste?? and *what* was/is the criterion for such
>> designation?
>>
>> As a brahmin myself, why am I not able to understand/accept such epithet?
>>
>> Thanks and regards,
>> rajam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:04 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> Yet another cookie-cutter study resulting in a cotton-candy result! sigh.
>>
>> Regards,
>> rajam
>>
>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <
>> H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
>>
>> Here is the link, for those who cannot open the attachment:
>>
>>
>> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23
>>
>> Herman Tieken
>> Stationsweg 58
>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>> The Netherlands
>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>> website: hermantieken.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
>


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From rajam at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 28 03:40:53 2016
From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 16 19:40:53 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
In-Reply-To: <CAEzwJrDTRzcZ9LNewMQQeXP+h0-AWpHj-gxt1Sf2Aaatbk31Aw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007FABEB-BC33-4F21-9E3B-4B0A489F61C3@earthlink.net>

Totally sick to the core!!!


> On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:37 PM, patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Purusha Suktam - explains how Brahmins form the head, Ksatriyas the arms, Vaishyas the body, Shudras the feet  - actually 10.90.12
> 
> In my ethnographic research I have heard this quoted countless times by Brahmins as justification as to why they consider themselves superior to the other classes/castes.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Patrick McCartney 
> 
> PhD Candidate 
> School of Culture, History & Language
> College of the Asia-Pacific
> The Australian National University
> Canberra, Australia, 0200
> 
> 
> Skype - psdmccartney
> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
> 
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
> https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg>
> 
>  <http://goog_371544488/>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg>
> 
> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g <http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g>
> 
> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be <http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be>
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:45 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net <mailto:rajam at earthlink.net>> wrote:
> Dear Patrick McCartney,
> 
> Many thanks. Currently I don?t have access to several resources including a library. So, could you please recite yajurveda 30.11  / ?gveda 10.90 and explain the contents?
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> rajam
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:05 PM, patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com <mailto:psdmccartney at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> yajurveda 30.11  / ?gveda 10.90  could be good places to start? 
>> 
>> All the best,
>> 
>> Patrick McCartney 
>> 
>> PhD Candidate 
>> School of Culture, History & Language
>> College of the Asia-Pacific
>> The Australian National University
>> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>> 
>> 
>> Skype - psdmccartney
>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748 <tel:%2B61%20414%20954%20748>
>> 
>> 
>> https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>> https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg>
>> 
>>  <http://goog_371544488/>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg>
>> 
>> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g <http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g>
>> 
>> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be <http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net <mailto:rajam at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>> My naive, honest, and sincere question: Who decided/declared that the brahmins are the ?upper caste?? and what was/is the criterion for such designation?
>> 
>> As a brahmin myself, why am I not able to understand/accept such epithet?
>> 
>> Thanks and regards,
>> rajam
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:04 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net <mailto:rajam at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yet another cookie-cutter study resulting in a cotton-candy result! sigh.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> rajam
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl <mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Here is the link, for those who cannot open the attachment:
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23 <http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23>
>>>> 
>>>> Herman Tieken
>>>> Stationsweg 58
>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>>> The Netherlands
>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>>> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>_______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
> 
> 



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From nmisra at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 08:48:21 2016
From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 16 14:18:21 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
In-Reply-To: <CAEzwJrDTRzcZ9LNewMQQeXP+h0-AWpHj-gxt1Sf2Aaatbk31Aw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAATk=rBWo9wsM_8FDoHtwR4cni2TdBUE9moz1DAuLZBM3HNPBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Patrick

Is this ethnographic research published or available to read? Would like to
know more details about the sample size, geographic distribution
(urban/rural) etc.

As for Purusha Sukta, neither the commentary by Uvata nor that by Mahidhara
on VSYM 30.11 interprets a hierarchy in Brahmins emanating from the mouth
and Sudras from the feet. VSYM 30.12 and 30.13 say Agni was born from the
mouth and Bhumi from the feet of the Purusha. There is no hierarchy
interpreted here too by Uvata or Mahidhara.

I am not denying that there are Brahmins who cite the Purusha Sukta in
response to a [tricky] question on superiority. But if this interpretation
is not found in traditional commentaries then can we say the Purusha Sukta
implies Brahmins are superior/higher?

I can also say that some texts have in fact contradicted such
interpretations of the Purusha Sukta. I can cite the commentary by Sv?m?
R?mabhadr?c?rya on BG 18.41 (br?hma?ak?atriyavi??? ...). The extracts are
in Sanskrit and Hindi and may be useful.

R?mabhadr?c?rya, Jagadguru R?m?nand?c?rya Sv?m? (1998). ?r?madbhagavadg?t?
sa?sk?tahind??r?r?ghavak?p?bh??yasahit?. Volume II. Citrak??a:
?r?tulas?p??hasev?ny?sa. pp. 471, 504?505.

Sanskrit commentary on page 471:

?????????? ?????????? ???????? ???????????????????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????
???? ???????????? ?????????? ?????? ???? ????????????????? ???? ??
????????? ??????????? ???????????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????????????

????????????????? ??????????????? ?????????? ??????
???? ??????? ?????????? ????????? ??????? ???????
(??????????? ??.??)
??????????? ??? ?????????????????? ??????? ?????? ????? ????????????
????????? ?????????? ???? ???????? ??? ???????? ??????? ???? ??? ??????
????? ????? ???????????? ??? ???????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????????????
??????????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????? ??? ????? ????????? ??????? (??
?.?.??) ????????? ??????????? ????????????????????????????? ?????
?????????????? ?????????????? ??????? ????????? ??? ???????????
???????????? ???????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????????????????? ????????????
????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????????? ??? ?? ?????? ? ???????
??????????? ??????????????? ??????????????????? ?????????? ?? ??
?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ?????????? ? ??
?????????????????? ??????????? ???? ?????????? ??????? ? ??????? ?????????
?????? ??? ????? ???????? ??????? ????? ??????????????? ??????????????
?????? ???????? ????????? ?????? ????????? ??? ??????? ????????

Hindi commentary on pages 504?505:

?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????????????? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??, ?????
???? ???????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ??
?? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ????????? ??
???????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??????, ???? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??
?????? ??????????? ???
????????????????? ??????????????? ?????????? ??????
???? ??????? ?????????? ????????? ??????? ???????
(??????????? ??.??)
???? ?????????? ?? ?????? ?? ??????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ????
???? ?? ??? ???????? ?? ??? ?? ???????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ????????
??????? ???? ???, ?? ???????? ?? ??? ?? ?????, ?? ??? ?? ????? ???????
????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ???????? ??
??????? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ???
?????????? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ????
????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ?????
???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???
???, ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ???????????? ????????? ??,
?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???????? ??????
????-???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ???

Thanks, Nityanand
On Jan 28, 2016 9:10 AM, "patrick mccartney" <psdmccartney at gmail.com> wrote:

> Purusha Suktam - explains how Brahmins form the head, Ksatriyas the arms,
> Vaishyas the body, Shudras the feet  - actually 10.90.12
>
> In my ethnographic research I have heard this quoted countless times by
> Brahmins as justification as to why they consider themselves superior to
> the other classes/castes.
>
> All the best,
>
> Patrick McCartney
>
> PhD Candidate
> School of Culture, History & Language
> College of the Asia-Pacific
> The Australian National University
> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>
>
> Skype - psdmccartney
> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
>
>
>
>    - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
>    <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
>    - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
>    <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg
>
> <http://goog_371544488>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg
>
> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g
>
> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:45 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Dear Patrick McCartney,
>>
>> Many thanks. Currently I don?t have access to several resources including
>> a library. So, could you please recite yajurveda 30.11  / ?gveda 10.90 and
>> explain the contents?
>>
>> Thanks and regards,
>> rajam
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:05 PM, patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> yajurveda 30.11  / ?gveda 10.90  could be good places to start?
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Patrick McCartney
>>
>> PhD Candidate
>> School of Culture, History & Language
>> College of the Asia-Pacific
>> The Australian National University
>> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>>
>>
>> Skype - psdmccartney
>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
>>
>>
>>
>>    - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
>>    <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
>>    - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
>>    <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg
>>
>> <http://goog_371544488/>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg
>>
>> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g
>>
>> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> My naive, honest, and sincere question: *Who* decided/declared that the
>>> brahmins are the ?upper caste?? and *what* was/is the criterion for
>>> such designation?
>>>
>>> As a brahmin myself, why am I not able to understand/accept such epithet?
>>>
>>> Thanks and regards,
>>> rajam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:04 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yet another cookie-cutter study resulting in a cotton-candy result! sigh.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> rajam
>>>
>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <
>>> H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>> Here is the link, for those who cannot open the attachment:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23
>>>
>>> Herman Tieken
>>> Stationsweg 58
>>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>> The Netherlands
>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>> website: hermantieken.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
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From nmisra at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 08:57:42 2016
From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 16 14:27:42 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
In-Reply-To: <C0E15F43-B987-4F33-AC21-33702C0321CE@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAATk=rAhPzWE5Ex6T0O=gB4p53j2JU9gK2SsqW2ubZjWfTCHxQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 28, 2016 7:35 AM, "rajam" <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Yet another cookie-cutter study resulting in a cotton-candy result! sigh.
>
> Regards,
> rajam
>

Probably more than that? Here is what David Reich has to say:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160126/jsp/frontpage/story_65929.jsp

"This is an important (research) paper," said David Reich, professor of
genetics at the Harvard Medical School, who had seven years ago led an
independent effort to reconstruct India's population history that had
pointed to two ancestral groups: ANI and ASI.
"We had excluded the Austro-Asiatic and Tibeto-Burman speakers from our
analysis as we wanted to understand the gradient of ancestry seen mainly in
Indo-European and Dravidian speakers," Reich told this newspaper.
"The history of Tibeto-Burman speakers and Austro-Asiatic speakers and the
Andaman and Nicobar tribals is very important even though these groups
comprise a small fraction of the present-day population."


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From nmisra at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 09:05:46 2016
From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 16 14:35:46 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] The battle for Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <CAEzwJrAL8iG36QxPbqBciY+aLtqy5G11QVsVH7eaq5Prh1FYhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAATk=rCfpaQjLFuC0Mv=Za5rKYqPCbsb5rzjMgeJtm3RaF2dHA@mail.gmail.com>

Have not read the book, but a review by R Jagannathan was published on the
webiste of the right-of-centre Swarajyamag two days ago

http://swarajyamag.com/culture/american-orientalism-as-the-new-macaulayism-and-what-we-need-to-do-about-it/

About the reviewer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Jagannathan_(journalist)


On Jan 15, 2016 11:24 AM, "patrick mccartney" <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Friends,
>
> Has anyone had the opportunity to read Rajiv Malhotra's latest book?
>
> http://thebattleforsanskrit.com/synopsis/
>
> I'm curious to know what the '*new thrust* in Western Indology' is and
> where/how it 'goes wrong'. [emphasis mine]
>
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Patrick McCartney
>
> PhD Candidate
> School of Culture, History & Language
> College of the Asia-Pacific
> The Australian National University
> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>
>
> Skype - psdmccartney
> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
>
>
>
>    - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
>    <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
>    - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
>    <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg
>
> <http://goog_371544488>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg
>
> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g
>
> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From ofer.peres at mail.huji.ac.il  Thu Jan 28 09:20:40 2016
From: ofer.peres at mail.huji.ac.il (Ofer Peres)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 16 11:20:40 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
In-Reply-To: <CAATk=rBWo9wsM_8FDoHtwR4cni2TdBUE9moz1DAuLZBM3HNPBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABcuftRig8atTm38FUc-AUB+DgNJch+G_roE1szjc3NHSu2VhQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Nityanand,
Statements on the superiority of Brahmins are very common in the Veda.
Consider, for example, ?atapatha Br?hma?a 2.2.2.6 where brahmins are
described as human gods:
(Eggling's translation)

"Verily, there are two kinds of gods; for, indeed, the gods are the gods;
and the Br?hmans who have studied and teach sacred lore are the human gods.
The sacrifice of these is divided into two kinds: oblations constitute the
sacrifice to the gods; and gifts to the priests that to the human gods, the
Br?hmans who have studied and teach sacred lore. With oblations one
gratifies the gods, and with gifts to the priests the human gods, the
Br?hmans who have studied and teach sacred lore. Both these kinds of gods,
when gratified, place him in a state of bliss."

Same statement can be found in  ?B 2.4.3.14.  On the relation to K?atriyas
consider ?B 4.1.4.6 (again, in Eggling's translation):

"Hence it is quite proper that a Br?hman should be without a king, but were
he to obtain a king, it would be conducive to the success (of both). It is,
however, quite improper that a king should be without a Br?hman, for
whatever deed he does, unsped by Mitra, the priesthood, therein he succeeds
not. Wherefore a Kshatriya who intends to do a deed ought by all means to
resort to a Br?hman, for he verily succeeds only in the deed sped by the
Br?hman."

It's quite natural for texts composed by brahmins to elevate their own
status over the other var?as, isn't it?


Ofer.








2016-01-28 10:48 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra <nmisra at gmail.com>:

> Dear Patrick
>
> Is this ethnographic research published or available to read? Would like
> to know more details about the sample size, geographic distribution
> (urban/rural) etc.
>
> As for Purusha Sukta, neither the commentary by Uvata nor that by
> Mahidhara on VSYM 30.11 interprets a hierarchy in Brahmins emanating from
> the mouth and Sudras from the feet. VSYM 30.12 and 30.13 say Agni was born
> from the mouth and Bhumi from the feet of the Purusha. There is no
> hierarchy interpreted here too by Uvata or Mahidhara.
>
> I am not denying that there are Brahmins who cite the Purusha Sukta in
> response to a [tricky] question on superiority. But if this interpretation
> is not found in traditional commentaries then can we say the Purusha Sukta
> implies Brahmins are superior/higher?
>
> I can also say that some texts have in fact contradicted such
> interpretations of the Purusha Sukta. I can cite the commentary by Sv?m?
> R?mabhadr?c?rya on BG 18.41 (br?hma?ak?atriyavi??? ...). The extracts are
> in Sanskrit and Hindi and may be useful.
>
> R?mabhadr?c?rya, Jagadguru R?m?nand?c?rya Sv?m? (1998). ?r?madbhagavadg?t?
> sa?sk?tahind??r?r?ghavak?p?bh??yasahit?. Volume II. Citrak??a:
> ?r?tulas?p??hasev?ny?sa. pp. 471, 504?505.
>
> Sanskrit commentary on page 471:
>
> ?????????? ?????????? ???????? ???????????????????? ?????? ?? ??????
> ?????? ???? ???????????? ?????????? ?????? ???? ????????????????? ???? ??
> ????????? ??????????? ???????????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????????????
>
> ????????????????? ??????????????? ?????????? ??????
> ???? ??????? ?????????? ????????? ??????? ???????
> (??????????? ??.??)
> ??????????? ??? ?????????????????? ??????? ?????? ????? ????????????
> ????????? ?????????? ???? ???????? ??? ???????? ??????? ???? ??? ??????
> ????? ????? ???????????? ??? ???????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????????????
> ??????????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????? ??? ????? ????????? ??????? (??
> ?.?.??) ????????? ??????????? ????????????????????????????? ?????
> ?????????????? ?????????????? ??????? ????????? ??? ???????????
> ???????????? ???????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????????????????? ????????????
> ????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????????? ??? ?? ?????? ? ???????
> ??????????? ??????????????? ??????????????????? ?????????? ?? ??
> ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ?????????? ? ??
> ?????????????????? ??????????? ???? ?????????? ??????? ? ??????? ?????????
> ?????? ??? ????? ???????? ??????? ????? ??????????????? ??????????????
> ?????? ???????? ????????? ?????? ????????? ??? ??????? ????????
>
> Hindi commentary on pages 504?505:
>
> ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????????????? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??,
> ????? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ??
> ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????????
> ?? ???????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??????, ???? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??
> ?????? ??????????? ???
> ????????????????? ??????????????? ?????????? ??????
> ???? ??????? ?????????? ????????? ??????? ???????
> (??????????? ??.??)
> ???? ?????????? ?? ?????? ?? ??????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ????
> ???? ?? ??? ???????? ?? ??? ?? ???????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ????????
> ??????? ???? ???, ?? ???????? ?? ??? ?? ?????, ?? ??? ?? ????? ???????
> ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ???????? ??
> ??????? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ???
> ?????????? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ????
> ????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ?????
> ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???
> ???, ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ???????????? ????????? ??,
> ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???????? ??????
> ????-???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ???
>
> Thanks, Nityanand
> On Jan 28, 2016 9:10 AM, "patrick mccartney" <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Purusha Suktam - explains how Brahmins form the head, Ksatriyas the arms,
>> Vaishyas the body, Shudras the feet  - actually 10.90.12
>>
>> In my ethnographic research I have heard this quoted countless times by
>> Brahmins as justification as to why they consider themselves superior to
>> the other classes/castes.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Patrick McCartney
>>
>> PhD Candidate
>> School of Culture, History & Language
>> College of the Asia-Pacific
>> The Australian National University
>> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>>
>>
>> Skype - psdmccartney
>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
>>
>>
>>
>>    - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
>>    <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
>>    - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
>>    <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg
>>
>> <http://goog_371544488>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg
>>
>> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g
>>
>> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:45 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Patrick McCartney,
>>>
>>> Many thanks. Currently I don?t have access to several
>>> resources including a library. So, could you please recite yajurveda 30.11
>>>  / ?gveda 10.90 and explain the contents?
>>>
>>> Thanks and regards,
>>> rajam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:05 PM, patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> yajurveda 30.11  / ?gveda 10.90  could be good places to start?
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Patrick McCartney
>>>
>>> PhD Candidate
>>> School of Culture, History & Language
>>> College of the Asia-Pacific
>>> The Australian National University
>>> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>>>
>>>
>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
>>>    <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
>>>    - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
>>>    <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg
>>>
>>> <http://goog_371544488/>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg
>>>
>>> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g
>>>
>>> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My naive, honest, and sincere question: *Who* decided/declared that
>>>> the brahmins are the ?upper caste?? and *what* was/is the criterion
>>>> for such designation?
>>>>
>>>> As a brahmin myself, why am I not able to understand/accept such
>>>> epithet?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks and regards,
>>>> rajam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:04 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yet another cookie-cutter study resulting in a cotton-candy result!
>>>> sigh.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> rajam
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <
>>>> H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Here is the link, for those who cannot open the attachment:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23
>>>>
>>>> Herman Tieken
>>>> Stationsweg 58
>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>>> The Netherlands
>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>>> website: hermantieken.com
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 09:47:38 2016
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 16 15:17:38 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
In-Reply-To: <CABcuftRig8atTm38FUc-AUB+DgNJch+G_roE1szjc3NHSu2VhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZh1ELLQDNyrqxSkofU71cA+vqhc8Hbd2dNcL0LBDJOeGw@mail.gmail.com>

It's quite natural for texts composed by brahmins to elevate their own
status over the other var?as, isn't it?
Too fast to come to this conclusion.
Is Vyasa a Brahmin?
On Jan 28, 2016 2:52 PM, "Ofer Peres" <ofer.peres at mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

> Dear Nityanand,
> Statements on the superiority of Brahmins are very common in the Veda.
> Consider, for example, ?atapatha Br?hma?a 2.2.2.6 where brahmins are
> described as human gods:
> (Eggling's translation)
>
> "Verily, there are two kinds of gods; for, indeed, the gods are the gods;
> and the Br?hmans who have studied and teach sacred lore are the human gods.
> The sacrifice of these is divided into two kinds: oblations constitute the
> sacrifice to the gods; and gifts to the priests that to the human gods, the
> Br?hmans who have studied and teach sacred lore. With oblations one
> gratifies the gods, and with gifts to the priests the human gods, the
> Br?hmans who have studied and teach sacred lore. Both these kinds of gods,
> when gratified, place him in a state of bliss."
>
> Same statement can be found in  ?B 2.4.3.14.  On the relation to K?atriyas
> consider ?B 4.1.4.6 (again, in Eggling's translation):
>
> "Hence it is quite proper that a Br?hman should be without a king, but
> were he to obtain a king, it would be conducive to the success (of both).
> It is, however, quite improper that a king should be without a Br?hman, for
> whatever deed he does, unsped by Mitra, the priesthood, therein he succeeds
> not. Wherefore a Kshatriya who intends to do a deed ought by all means to
> resort to a Br?hman, for he verily succeeds only in the deed sped by the
> Br?hman."
>
> It's quite natural for texts composed by brahmins to elevate their own
> status over the other var?as, isn't it?
>
>
> Ofer.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2016-01-28 10:48 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra <nmisra at gmail.com>:
>
>> Dear Patrick
>>
>> Is this ethnographic research published or available to read? Would like
>> to know more details about the sample size, geographic distribution
>> (urban/rural) etc.
>>
>> As for Purusha Sukta, neither the commentary by Uvata nor that by
>> Mahidhara on VSYM 30.11 interprets a hierarchy in Brahmins emanating from
>> the mouth and Sudras from the feet. VSYM 30.12 and 30.13 say Agni was born
>> from the mouth and Bhumi from the feet of the Purusha. There is no
>> hierarchy interpreted here too by Uvata or Mahidhara.
>>
>> I am not denying that there are Brahmins who cite the Purusha Sukta in
>> response to a [tricky] question on superiority. But if this interpretation
>> is not found in traditional commentaries then can we say the Purusha Sukta
>> implies Brahmins are superior/higher?
>>
>> I can also say that some texts have in fact contradicted such
>> interpretations of the Purusha Sukta. I can cite the commentary by Sv?m?
>> R?mabhadr?c?rya on BG 18.41 (br?hma?ak?atriyavi??? ...). The extracts are
>> in Sanskrit and Hindi and may be useful.
>>
>> R?mabhadr?c?rya, Jagadguru R?m?nand?c?rya Sv?m? (1998).
>> ?r?madbhagavadg?t? sa?sk?tahind??r?r?ghavak?p?bh??yasahit?. Volume II.
>> Citrak??a: ?r?tulas?p??hasev?ny?sa. pp. 471, 504?505.
>>
>> Sanskrit commentary on page 471:
>>
>> ?????????? ?????????? ???????? ???????????????????? ?????? ?? ??????
>> ?????? ???? ???????????? ?????????? ?????? ???? ????????????????? ???? ??
>> ????????? ??????????? ???????????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????????????
>>
>> ????????????????? ??????????????? ?????????? ??????
>> ???? ??????? ?????????? ????????? ??????? ???????
>> (??????????? ??.??)
>> ??????????? ??? ?????????????????? ??????? ?????? ????? ????????????
>> ????????? ?????????? ???? ???????? ??? ???????? ??????? ???? ??? ??????
>> ????? ????? ???????????? ??? ???????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????????????
>> ??????????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????? ??? ????? ????????? ??????? (??
>> ?.?.??) ????????? ??????????? ????????????????????????????? ?????
>> ?????????????? ?????????????? ??????? ????????? ??? ???????????
>> ???????????? ???????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????????????????? ????????????
>> ????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????????? ??? ?? ?????? ? ???????
>> ??????????? ??????????????? ??????????????????? ?????????? ?? ??
>> ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ?????????? ? ??
>> ?????????????????? ??????????? ???? ?????????? ??????? ? ??????? ?????????
>> ?????? ??? ????? ???????? ??????? ????? ??????????????? ??????????????
>> ?????? ???????? ????????? ?????? ????????? ??? ??????? ????????
>>
>> Hindi commentary on pages 504?505:
>>
>> ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????????????? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??,
>> ????? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ??
>> ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????????
>> ?? ???????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??????, ???? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??
>> ?????? ??????????? ???
>> ????????????????? ??????????????? ?????????? ??????
>> ???? ??????? ?????????? ????????? ??????? ???????
>> (??????????? ??.??)
>> ???? ?????????? ?? ?????? ?? ??????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ????
>> ???? ?? ??? ???????? ?? ??? ?? ???????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ????????
>> ??????? ???? ???, ?? ???????? ?? ??? ?? ?????, ?? ??? ?? ????? ???????
>> ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ???????? ??
>> ??????? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ???
>> ?????????? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ????
>> ????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ?????
>> ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???
>> ???, ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ???????????? ????????? ??,
>> ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???????? ??????
>> ????-???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ???
>>
>> Thanks, Nityanand
>> On Jan 28, 2016 9:10 AM, "patrick mccartney" <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Purusha Suktam - explains how Brahmins form the head, Ksatriyas the
>>> arms, Vaishyas the body, Shudras the feet  - actually 10.90.12
>>>
>>> In my ethnographic research I have heard this quoted countless times by
>>> Brahmins as justification as to why they consider themselves superior to
>>> the other classes/castes.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Patrick McCartney
>>>
>>> PhD Candidate
>>> School of Culture, History & Language
>>> College of the Asia-Pacific
>>> The Australian National University
>>> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>>>
>>>
>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
>>>    <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
>>>    - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
>>>    <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg
>>>
>>> <http://goog_371544488>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg
>>>
>>> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g
>>>
>>> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:45 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Patrick McCartney,
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks. Currently I don?t have access to several
>>>> resources including a library. So, could you please recite yajurveda 30.11
>>>>  / ?gveda 10.90 and explain the contents?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks and regards,
>>>> rajam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:05 PM, patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> yajurveda 30.11  / ?gveda 10.90  could be good places to start?
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>> Patrick McCartney
>>>>
>>>> PhD Candidate
>>>> School of Culture, History & Language
>>>> College of the Asia-Pacific
>>>> The Australian National University
>>>> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
>>>>    <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
>>>>    - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
>>>>    <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg
>>>>
>>>> <http://goog_371544488/>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg
>>>>
>>>> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g
>>>>
>>>> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My naive, honest, and sincere question: *Who* decided/declared that
>>>>> the brahmins are the ?upper caste?? and *what* was/is the criterion
>>>>> for such designation?
>>>>>
>>>>> As a brahmin myself, why am I not able to understand/accept such
>>>>> epithet?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks and regards,
>>>>> rajam
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:04 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yet another cookie-cutter study resulting in a cotton-candy result!
>>>>> sigh.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> rajam
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <
>>>>> H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the link, for those who cannot open the attachment:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23
>>>>>
>>>>> Herman Tieken
>>>>> Stationsweg 58
>>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>>>> The Netherlands
>>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>>>> website: hermantieken.com
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 10:26:13 2016
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 16 11:26:13 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] DNA and caste
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522CADDEF@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoAdTfOH=e1Pk3kzC4PyOxW5dezdcaNyGrHBHf-XrxEDNw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Herman (and Chris?), for this reference.
Both the study and the brief reactions so far confirm me in considering
"genetics" only a parameter of secondary, derived importance depending on
social inertia (which became stronger ca. 70 generations ago, i.e. ca. 350
CE, that is, around the date of the final redaction of what is now known as
the generalized (sarvaparsada) Manava Dharma Sastra or Manu Smriti).
The real underlying parameter in the case of, for instance, the
sufficiently attested spread of Vedic culture *within* the Indian
subcontinent from 1700 BCE is to be understood in terms of memetics and
memory culture.
http://www.rle.ucpel.tche.br/index.php/rle/article/view/1089/783
(I have a less complete version for those who do not read Portuguese.)
Whether the same applies to the transmission of early Dravidian literature,
I leave to Dravidologists to evaluate.
Full of questionable attributions of labels, the DNA study of Basu et al.
and the research of David Reich (cited e.g. here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/science/dna-deciphers-roots-of-modern-europeans.html?_r=0)
who must obviously be happy with Basu et al., are conceptually as full of
holes as Leerdam-cheese (or as a good piece of Emmental).
It is over and again going through the whole discussion about Louis
Dumont's Homo Hierarchicus (see for, in my view, a rich and balanced
criticism: Richard Burghart's *Conditions of Listening*, ed. by C.J. Fuller
and J. Spencer
*). *
Jan Houben




*Jan E.M. HOUBEN*

Directeur d??tudes

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

*?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques

CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

www.ephe.fr


On 27 January 2016 at 21:45, Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
wrote:

> For those interested in DNA/genomics and castes in India, see the
> attachment. I got the article from my eldest son, who works in the field of
> bio-medical science.
> Herman
> PNAS-2016-Basu-1513197113.pdf? (979 kB?)
> <https://webmail.campus.leidenuniv.nl/owa/#>?[In browser openen
> <https://webmail.campus.leidenuniv.nl/owa/#>?]
>
>
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 10:48:33 2016
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 16 11:48:33 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] DNA and caste
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoAdTfOH=e1Pk3kzC4PyOxW5dezdcaNyGrHBHf-XrxEDNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoBQL7zUyEuOGBvEQtQmzJ-Cw_nQ7CkYYD6TunOh5ZwzQQ@mail.gmail.com>

Another study that can contribute to a more productive approach (which does
not try to replace philological and historical study by "natural science")
is
*This Fissured Land: An Ecological History of India* (new, revised edition
appeared in 2013), by two Indian authors, Madhav Gadgil et Ramachandra Guha.
For a review of the first edition (1992) see:
http://jpe.library.arizona.edu/volume_1/brodtvol1.htm
We find in this book, inter alia:
- A theory to explain several features of the caste system (which,
according to the authors, has its origins in a large ecological
transformation in India in the period of about BC 700-500 AD; next big
transformation / ecological catastrophe: in the colonial period) (theory
which invokes neither God nor race nor genetics as an explanatory factor);
- An original reading and at the end, I believe, a convincing one, of some
passages in the Mahabharata as reflecting this ancient ecological
transformation;
- A theory of ecological conditions for the emergence of Buddhism, 500 BC.
AD (relatively "egalitarian" religion, which, after 1500 years, disappeared
from India but continued in SE Asia and elsewhere);
- And (a sketch of an) analysis of the history of the world which should
interest both Marxists and anti-Marxists: more "materialistic" than Marx,
the analysis takes as starting point the *mode of resource use* (rather
than the *mode of economic production*).
Best,
Jan Houben

On 28 January 2016 at 11:26, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Herman (and Chris?), for this reference.
> Both the study and the brief reactions so far confirm me in considering
> "genetics" only a parameter of secondary, derived importance depending on
> social inertia (which became stronger ca. 70 generations ago, i.e. ca. 350
> CE, that is, around the date of the final redaction of what is now known as
> the generalized (sarvaparsada) Manava Dharma Sastra or Manu Smriti).
> The real underlying parameter in the case of, for instance, the
> sufficiently attested spread of Vedic culture *within* the Indian
> subcontinent from 1700 BCE is to be understood in terms of memetics and
> memory culture.
> http://www.rle.ucpel.tche.br/index.php/rle/article/view/1089/783
> (I have a less complete version in English for those who do not read
> Portuguese.)
> Whether the same applies to the transmission of early Dravidian
> literature, I leave to Dravidologists to evaluate.
> Full of questionable attributions of labels, the DNA study of Basu et al.
> and the research of David Reich (cited e.g. here:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/science/dna-deciphers-roots-of-modern-europeans.html?_r=0)
> who must obviously be happy with Basu et al., are conceptually as full of
> holes as Leerdam-cheese (or as a good piece of Emmental).
> It is over and again going through the whole discussion about Louis
> Dumont's Homo Hierarchicus (see for, in my view, a rich and balanced
> criticism: Richard Burghart's *Conditions of Listening*, ed. by C.J.
> Fuller and J. Spencer
> *). *
> Jan Houben
>
>
>
>
> *Jan E.M. HOUBEN*
>
> Directeur d??tudes
>
> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite
>
> *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> 54, rue Saint-Jacques
>
> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>
> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr
>
> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>
> www.ephe.fr
>
>
> On 27 January 2016 at 21:45, Tieken, H.J.H. <
> H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
>
>> For those interested in DNA/genomics and castes in India, see the
>> attachment. I got the article from my eldest son, who works in the field of
>> bio-medical science.
>> Herman
>> PNAS-2016-Basu-1513197113.pdf? (979 kB?)
>> <https://webmail.campus.leidenuniv.nl/owa/#>?[In browser openen
>> <https://webmail.campus.leidenuniv.nl/owa/#>?]
>>
>>
>> Herman Tieken
>> Stationsweg 58
>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>> The Netherlands
>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>> website: hermantieken.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>


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From joerg.gengnagel at urz.uni-heidelberg.de  Thu Jan 28 12:13:53 2016
From: joerg.gengnagel at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Joerg Gengnagel)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 16 13:13:53 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Heidelberg Summer Schools August 2016 and Saraswati	Sanskrit Prize
Message-ID: <56AA0601.9040400@urz.uni-heidelberg.de>

Dear Colleagues,

the department of Cultural and Religious History of South Asia 
(Classical Indology) is organising:

?*Summer School in Spoken Sanskrit (Dr. Sadananda Das)***

?*Nepali Intensive Course (Laxmi Nath Shrestha) *

*
*

<http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/en/summerschool/summerschool.php>http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/en/summerschool/summerschool.php

****

*from 1^st ? 26^th August 2016 at the South Asia Institute, Heidelberg. *

In addition to the language courses offered this year, we will also be 
hosting the *Saraswati Sanskrit Prize 2016*, which will reward essays 
written on this year?s topic:

*?The relevance of Sanskrit for the study of medicine?.*

http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/saraswati/saraswati.php

**

We would be very grateful if you could inform your colleagues and 
students about this opportunity. For further questions please do not 
hesitate to contact us.**

Sincerely,

Axel Michaels, Joerg Gengnagel

-- 
apl. Prof. Dr. J?rg Gengnagel
South Asia Institute
Department of Cultural and Religious History of South Asia (Classical Indology)
Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
D-69120 Heidelberg
phone: +49(0)6221/54-8906
fax:   +49(0)6221/54-8841

http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/mitarbeiter/gengnagel/gengnagel.php



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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 17:53:42 2016
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 16 23:23:42 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eYHJPeEq_2sgxMy79jUF966thA+OktuZzFXvkmdPqpbvw@mail.gmail.com>

In the same sukta, there is

?????? ????????????? ???????? ????? ??????? |

???????? ?????????? ????????????? ????????????? ||??||



Does ???????? ?????????? also have a hierarchical value connotation?



Body part descriptions are there in the Sukta in relation to many other
cosmic entities too. Are they all hierarchically viewed? If no, then why
this argument be limited only for the socirty aspect?



Though Vibhaktis are different for first three quarters and the fourth
quarter, the meaning has to be taken consistently and uniformly for all the
four quarters of the mantra. So in all the four quarters, it means that
four varNas are depicted as forming equi-status components of an organic
entity.



Hierarchy is not there in sAyaNabhAshya too.


It is quite natural for those with hierarchy in their attitude or those who
enjoy wielding their superiority to misquote books or misinterpret them in
the direction of their favor.


But their misquotation or misinterpretation can not be the basis of the
interpretation of the text.


Particularly a historical study citing such a text  as the source or origin
of hierarchy, depending on its wrong interpretation, loses its validity on
account of the wrongness of the interpretation.

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 18:14:42 2016
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 16 23:44:42 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eY8DoxQtUnOoAnOd7CCdGdu3a7dtbcp8uew3=QZ+KGYEQ@mail.gmail.com>

There are two versions of the thesis of the paper: 1. The one as
paraphrased by Sri Mohit M Rao, the journalist of the Hindu:



" For most upper-caste communities, endogamy (that is marrying within one?s
caste) started nearly 70 generations ago, or around the time of the Hindu
Gupta period around 1,500 years ago."



The title of the paper in PNAS is :



Genomic reconstruction of the history of extant populations of India
reveals five distinct ancestral components and a complex structure.



The Hindu report limits the generalization of 'endogamy (that is marrying
within one?s caste) started nearly 70 generations ago, or around the time
of the Hindu Gupta period around 1,500 years ago' 'For most upper-caste
communities' only.



Whereas the title gives the impression that it is about the entire 'extant
populations of India'.



Given the extremely decentralized power structure of the premodern Indian
society, it is implausible for endogamy to be 'enforced through the
powerful state machinery ' across the  entire ' populations of India'.



To believe that social institutions like endogamy can be enforced through
powerful state machinery itself is a proposition to be viewed sceptically.



Reich et al whose work is referred to as the one over which the present one
is an improvement has the following words:



"Strong endogamy must have applied since then (average gene flow less than
1 in 30 per generation) to prevent the genetic signatures of founder events
from being erased by gene flow. *Some historians have argued that ?caste?
in modern India is an ?invention? of colonialism in the sense that it
became more rigid under colonial rule*. However, our results suggest that
many current distinctions among groups are ancient and that strong endogamy
must have shaped marriage patterns in India for thousands of years "
(highlighting mine).



Is the sentence ?Some historians have argued that ?caste? in modern India
is an ?invention? of colonialism in the sense that it became more rigid
under colonial rule.? An example for social science arguments being poorva
paksha for natural science research?





-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From adheesh1 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 18:44:19 2016
From: adheesh1 at gmail.com (Adheesh Sathaye)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 16 10:44:19 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eYHJPeEq_2sgxMy79jUF966thA+OktuZzFXvkmdPqpbvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3D24C0A-FF2F-4C9A-9541-08406490B1C7@gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,


While one may reasonably argue that the corporal metonymy of var?a in the Puru?as?kta is non-hierarchical and instead based on a vision of organic unity, I would suggest (and have argued in my recent book _Crossing the Lines of Caste_) one can observe the beginnings of the hierarchical division between Br?hma?a and K?atriya categories in the Aitareya Br?hma?a?s ?una??ep?khy?na (c. 750-500BCE?), where it still seems possible for a radical fellow like Vi?v?mitra to assert that he is *both* Brahm??a and K?atriya, a notion that would defeat hierarchical divisions, but one that ?una??epa finds a bit difficult to accept. 

For at the same time, we find in the same narrative an explicit condemnation of ??dras (AB 7.17) and Dasyus, and a statement that Br?hma?as are better than K?atriyas (7.15, bh?y?n vai br?hma?o k?atriy?t). Admittedly this is in the context of being a sacrificial victim for Varu?a, but perhaps that is not so different in Vedic social thought.

All best wishes,
Adheesh


?
Adheesh Sathaye
University of British Columbia


 
> On Jan 28, 2016, at 09:53, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> In the same sukta, there is
> ?????? ????????????? ???????? ????? ??????? |
> ???????? ?????????? ????????????? ????????????? ||??||
>  
> Does ???????? ?????????? also have a hierarchical value connotation?
>  
> Body part descriptions are there in the Sukta in relation to many other cosmic entities too. Are they all hierarchically viewed? If no, then why this argument be limited only for the socirty aspect?
>  
> Though Vibhaktis are different for first three quarters and the fourth quarter, the meaning has to be taken consistently and uniformly for all the four quarters of the mantra. So in all the four quarters, it means that four varNas are depicted as forming equi-status components of an organic entity.
>  
> Hierarchy is not there in sAyaNabhAshya too.
> 
> It is quite natural for those with hierarchy in their attitude or those who enjoy wielding their superiority to misquote books or misinterpret them in the direction of their favor. 
> 
> But their misquotation or misinterpretation can not be the basis of the interpretation of the text. 
> 
> Particularly a historical study citing such a text  as the source or origin of hierarchy, depending on its wrong interpretation, loses its validity on account of the wrongness of the interpretation. 
> 
> -- 
> Nagaraj Paturi
>  
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>  
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>  
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>  
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>  
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
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From nmisra at gmail.com  Fri Jan 29 01:03:06 2016
From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 16 06:33:06 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Acharya_Vishwanath_Mishra_(1930=E2=80=932016)?=
Message-ID: <CAATk=rDB=26yKrVXGKt1PTM7F5U0SY-NShCqUUS-9ZFCq52ZHw@mail.gmail.com>

[Apologies for cross-posting]

Dear list members,

Another sun of Sanskrit grammar has set. Popularly referred to as
*Vaiy?kara?am?rta??a*, Acharya Vishwanath Mishra?one of the tallest
scholars of Sanskrit grammar?passed away around 6 a.m. India time on the
morning of January 28 2016.

Born on June 15 1930 at Siwan in Bihar, Acharya Mishra studied major works
of Sanskrit grammar, starting with *Siddh?ntakaumud?*, under ?Mahashaya Ji?
Ram Yash Tripathi (1884?1966) in Varanasi for eleven years. He also studied
the *Rasaga?gadhara* and the *Pa?calak?a?i* from Mahashaya Ji. His other
Guru-s included Pandit Badrinath Shukla.

Acharya Mishra taught at Daltonganj in Ranchi for three years, and then at
various colleges and universities in Rajasthan. Bikaner was his home for a
long time. In his final days, he taught at the Jain Vishvabharati at Nagaur
in Rajasthan.

In 1980, Acharya Mishra?s Hindi commentary *Subodhin?* on the
*Paribh??endu?ekhara* was published by Chaukhambha Sanskrit Sansthan. It is
widely considered to be the best Hindi explanation of the
*Paribh??endu?ekhara*. In 1997, his Hindi commentary *Subodhin?* on the
*Laghu?abdendu?ekhara* (up to the *Pa?casandhi*) was published by
Chaukhambha Sanskrit Sansthan. This book was dedicated to
*Abhinava?a?kar?c?rya* ?Dharmasamr??? Sv?m? Karapatr? (1907?1982) and has
been reprinted several times. Two other well-known works of Acharya Mishra
are the *Praudhanibandhasaurabham* (1982) and the *Bhik?uny?yakar?ik?*. In
all he authored seven books and more than fifty papers. When the
commentaries on the *Paribh??endu?ekhara *and the *Laghu?abdendu?ekhara *were
presented by Acharya Mishra to my Guru, Jagadguru Sv?m? R?mabhadrac?rya, he
remarked to those present, ?You give me material things, today Mishra Ji
has given me invaluable and hard-to-find  knowledge,? and placed the two
books on his head as a mark of respect to Acharya Mishra.

For his services to Sanskrit, Acharya Mishra was honoured with the
President?s Certificate of Honour for the year 1999. The honour was
presented to him by the then President of India Honourable K. R. Narayanan
on February 6 2002.

Several students of Acharya Mishra are scholars of Sanskrit grammar today.
Prof. Ramyatna Shukla of Varanasasi briefly studied under Acharya Mishra.

The attached photo from the website of Acharya Siyaramadasa Naiyayika shows
Acharya Mishra in the centre at the age of 84 in January 2015. To the left
is his student Prof. Ashok Kumar Tiwari and to the right is Acharya
Siyaramadasa Naiyayika. More photos of the Acharya from this meeting can be
seen here <http://www.acharysiyaramdas.com/?????-??-??-??????????-??/>:

Sources:
[1] Sanskrit, Arabic scholars honoured. The Hindu. Feb 7 2002.
http://www.thehindu.com/2002/02/07/stories/2002020705030600.htm
[2] Radha Vallabh Tripathi (ed.) Inventory of Sanskrit Scholars (2012).
Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan. ISBN 978-93-86111-85-2. p. 165.
[3] Acharya Siyaramadasa Naiyayika (January 6 2015). ????? ?? ?? ?????
????? ???????????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????? ????? ??.
www.acharysiyaramdas.com/?????-??-??-??????????-??/
<http://www.acharysiyaramdas.com/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B6%E0%A4%AF-%E0%A4%9C%E0%A5%80-%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%87-%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%B6%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF-%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF/>


-- 
Nity?nanda Mi?ra
http://nmisra.googlepages.com


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From james_fitzgerald at brown.edu  Fri Jan 29 18:13:13 2016
From: james_fitzgerald at brown.edu (Fitzgerald, James)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 16 13:13:13 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] 1 Year Position at Vanderbilt in Religious Studies: Buddhism and Asian Religious Traditions
Message-ID: <CAD7PMUg3kUnZoPKDqLW8BwntHrqrJ5+dQ3g0J-=vpZ=Dg9Yi+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Posted on behalf of someone who does not subscribe to Indology, jlf

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Vanderbilt University

One Year Term Appointment in Buddhist and Asian Religious Traditions



The Department of Religious Studies at Vanderbilt University seeks to hire
a sabbatical replacement for Buddhist Traditions and Asian Religions. The
rank is Non-Tenure-Track Assistant Professor for a terminal one year
appointment, for academic year 2016-17. All requirements for the Ph.D. must
be met before the start of the appointment in August 2016.



The standard course load is two courses per term. The successful candidate
must teach a one course survey of Buddhist Traditions and other
introductory and advanced courses in Asian Religions commensurate to
training in either East Asian, Tibetan and Himalayan, or South Asian
regions. The area of specialization, historical period, and methodological
approach are open. Command of languages appropriate to an advanced research
agenda will be required.



Review of applications will begin on Thursday 25 February 2016 and will
remain open until the position is successfully filled.



Please upload the following materials to RLSTjobs at vanderbilt.edu a letter
of application that includes a statement of teaching philosophy, research
interests, teaching evaluations (if available), and transcripts.  Three
confidential letters of recommendation (or standard university graduate
student placement dossier) should also be uploaded.



Vanderbilt University is committed to recruiting and retaining an
academically and culturally diverse community of exceptional faculty.
Vanderbilt
is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. Women and
under-represented minorities are encouraged to apply. Vanderbilt University
offers employment benefits to same-sex domestic partners and prohibits
discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation/preference and gender
identity/expression.


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sat Jan 30 03:33:03 2016
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 16 09:03:03 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] dna and castes
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebfTyGy8W+cmB8FHTagHqQxaO0in1PBOXJf2YaRr61jAg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Prof. Sathaye,

You agreed that one may reasonably argue that the corporal metonymy of
var?a in the Puru?as?kta is non-hierarchical and instead based on a vision
of organic unity. My focus was only that.

The rest of your post when discussed may take us back to the same old
beaten track of varNa-caste distinction , varNa as textual and caste as
real, their mutual independence and influence and so on and so forth.


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From ofer.peres at mail.huji.ac.il  Sat Jan 30 21:20:39 2016
From: ofer.peres at mail.huji.ac.il (Ofer Peres)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 16 23:20:39 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject)
Message-ID: <CABcuftSUWADgxa45jkYk7gFNv=21B4g8uDqKWhLxCxb4NpADkA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,
Is anyone familiar with local (pre-modern) traditions, textual, ritual or
other, involving Pur?ravas (with or without Urva??)?


In addition, I'm searching for the origin of the phrase "??u
cakkiravartti",  "The Six Emperors" (Tami?)


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From ofer.peres at mail.huji.ac.il  Sat Jan 30 21:26:41 2016
From: ofer.peres at mail.huji.ac.il (Ofer Peres)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 16 23:26:41 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pururavas and the "Six Emperors"
Message-ID: <CABcuftTU_n0u=v6pfGhX=8u_A1Y+zu8FYvZQr2TcG_WN3K5-Dg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,
Is anyone familiar with local (pre-modern) traditions, textual, ritual or
other, involving Pur?ravas (with or without Urva??)?


In addition, I'm searching for the origin of the phrase "??u
cakkiravartti",  "The Six Emperors" (Tami?), a list which has some
variations but usually includes Nala, Pururavas, Ariccantiran and
frequently Mucukuntan and Karttaviriyan?

Thank you,
Ofer Peres
PhD Candidate
Hebrew University,
Jerusalem


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From ofer.peres at mail.huji.ac.il  Sat Jan 30 21:33:53 2016
From: ofer.peres at mail.huji.ac.il (Ofer Peres)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 16 23:33:53 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pururavas and the "Six Emperors"
Message-ID: <CABcuftR-sJYuJGmTuAurPFCaxSFuv-Dq0JriYxb6xk-CUCRGdA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,
Is anyone familiar with local (pre-modern) traditions, textual, ritual or
other, involving Pur?ravas (with or without Urva??)?


In addition, I'm searching for the origin of the phrase "??u
cakkiravartti",  "The Six Emperors" (Tami?), a list which has some
variations but usually includes Nala, Pururavas, Ariccantiran and
frequently Mucukuntan and Karttaviriyan?

Thank you,
Ofer Peres
PhD Candidate
Hebrew University,
Jerusalem


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From ofer.peres at mail.huji.ac.il  Sat Jan 30 21:58:41 2016
From: ofer.peres at mail.huji.ac.il (Ofer Peres)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 16 23:58:41 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pururavas and the "Six Emperors"
Message-ID: <CABcuftSoe0ehcq0NRNTS-66XVUHtEVU1Wtc4X33sUfNt3+mgMw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,
Is anyone familiar with local (pre-modern) traditions, textual, ritual or
other, involving Pur?ravas (with or without Urva??)?


In addition, I'm searching for the origin of the phrase "??u
cakkiravartti",  "The Six Emperors" (Tami?), a list which has some
variations but usually includes Nala, Pururavas, Ariccantiran and
frequently Mucukuntan and Karttaviriyan?

Thank you,
Ofer Peres
PhD Candidate
Hebrew University,
Jerusalem


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From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com  Sun Jan 31 18:21:38 2016
From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 16 13:21:38 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers: International Journal of Hindu and	Dharma Studies
Message-ID: <CADUnV13HT6U1HzYn9972sg6cNJpkE8AiWLffjXsSquyPY6-Lgw@mail.gmail.com>

*Call for papers*

*International Journal of Dharma and Hindu Studies*

*Submissions open for Volume 1 Number 3? April 2016*

International Journal of Dharma and Hindu Studies (IJDHS) is a Quarterly
online, peer-reviewed and open-access journal published by the Hindu
University of America (HUA).

IJDHS invites academic papers on Dharma and Hindu religions and their
academic study and reception in the west for publication in Volume 1 Number
3. Interactions and relationship of western religions and Dharma traditions
are also considered for publication in this issue of the journal. Papers
on the subject of academic study of Hinduism and and India outside of India
as well as Hinduism and Dharma religions outside India will be considered
for publication.  Papers on Hinduism and Dharma religions (Buddhism,
Jainism and Sikhism) and their interdisciplinary studies concerning any of
the following disciplines of Anthropology, Sociology, Philosophy, History &
Culture, Human Geography, Language & Linguistics, Media Studies, Ethics,
Environmental Studies, Women Studies.

International Journal of Dharma and Hindu Studies publishes original
papers, reflection papers, theoretical & conceptual framework, analytical
and empirical research, applied research & field notes, and book reviews.



*Date of Publishing:* IJDHS is inviting papers for Vol. 1 No. 3 scheduled
to be published on April 15, 2016.



*Submission deadline: *February 16, 2016



Send your manuscript and questions to the editor Dr. Lavanya Vemsani at:
ijdhseditor at gmail.com or lavanyavemsani at gmail.com



With Warm Regards,



*Dr. Lavanya Vemsani*

Ph.D. Religious Studies (McMaster) & Ph.D. History (Univ. of Hyderabad)

Editor, International Journal of Dharma and Hindu Studies

Professor, Department of Social Sciences

Shawnee State University

E-mail: ijdhseditor at gmail.com or lavanyavemsani at gmail.com

-- 

*Dr. Lavanya Vemsani*  Ph.D. History (Univ. of Hyderabad) & Ph.D. Religious
Studies (McMaster Univ.)

Professor of History, Department of Social Sciences

Portsmouth OH 45662

V:7403513233 F:7403513153 E:lvemsani at shawnee.edu


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