From karp at uw.edu.pl Fri Apr 1 06:06:11 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 16 08:06:11 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Dear Colleagues Message-ID: Could someone, please, give formal *dzongkha* transliteration for the names of four important Bhutanese buildings? 1. Memorial Chorten (Thimphu) 2. Trashigang Monastery 3. Wangchukling Palace 4. Chhukha Dzong Thanks in advance, Artur Karp (Warsaw, Poland) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Fri Apr 1 06:52:46 2016 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 16 06:52:46 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Dear Colleagues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047B69DBD@xm-mbx-04-prod> Dear Artur, If by "formal dzongkha transliteration" you mean the literary spelling, in these cases the spellings used correspond with those of choeke (chos skad), what we call Classical Tibetan: 1. Memorial Chorten (Thimphu): thim phu mchod rten 2. Trashigang Monastery: bkra shis sgang dgon pa (though Bhutanese usage often favors lha khang, "temple," instead of dgon pa) 3. Wangchukling Palace: dbang phyug gling pho brang 4. Chhukha Dzong: chu kha rdzong hope this helps, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Fri Apr 1 07:01:46 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 16 09:01:46 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Dear Colleagues In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047B69DBD@xm-mbx-04-prod> Message-ID: Dear Matthew, aren't there some diacritical marks over the transliterated vowels? Regards, Artur 2016-04-01 8:52 GMT+02:00 Matthew Kapstein : > Dear Artur, > > If by "formal dzongkha transliteration" you mean the literary spelling, in > these cases the spellings used > correspond with those of choeke (chos skad), what we call Classical > Tibetan: > > 1. Memorial Chorten (Thimphu): thim phu mchod rten > 2. Trashigang Monastery: bkra shis sgang dgon pa (though Bhutanese usage > often favors lha khang, "temple," > instead of dgon pa) > 3. Wangchukling Palace: dbang phyug gling pho brang > 4. Chhukha Dzong: chu kha rdzong > > hope this helps, > Matthew > > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Fri Apr 1 07:41:14 2016 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 16 07:41:14 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Dear Colleagues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047B69DE3@xm-mbx-04-prod> no diacritical marks Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Fri Apr 1 20:58:01 2016 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 16 13:58:01 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] California Textbooks Revisited Message-ID: Some on the list were wondering why Mr. Juluri was looking for references to India in premodern times. https://www.change.org/p/academia-don-t-replace-india-with-south-asia-in-california-history-textbooks?recruiter=372905288&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 07:44:09 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (Patrick Mccartney) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 16 18:14:09 +1030 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Shared from Twitter: Reduce pain and manage symptoms: What research says about yoga for cancer Message-ID: Dear friends, below is a link to an interesting article about the recent claims by AYUSH regarding cancer cures and yoga. Reduce pain and manage symptoms: What research says about yoga for cancer from scroll.in?s Tweet Download the Twitter app Sent from my left foot -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu Sat Apr 2 23:55:14 2016 From: Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu (Michael Slouber) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 16 23:55:14 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] ASME Books for Review (No more available) Message-ID: <2FE94C36-B6D4-417D-B327-0CF74D2EB413@wwu.edu> All of the books listed in the prior message have now been paired with reviewers. Thank you for your interest! ?? Michael Slouber Assistant Professor of South Asia Department of Liberal Studies Western Washington University Dear Indologists, (Please reply off-list!) I am seeking book reviews for the journal Asian Medicine: Tradition and Modernity. The following books relating to South Asian medicine are currently in need of review: Costa, Palmira Fontes da (2015). Medicine, Trade and Empire: Garcia de Orta?s Colloquies on the Simples and Drugs of India (1563) in Context. Ashgate. Das, Debjani (2015). Houses of Madness: Insanity and Asylums of Bengal in Nineteenth-Century India. Oxford University Press India. Ecks, Stefan (2014). Eating Drugs: Psychopharmaceutical Pluralism in India. NYU Press. Ferrari, Fabrizio (2015). Religion, Devotion And Medicine In North India: The Healing Power Of Sitala. Bloomsbury. Fields, Gregory P. (2014) Religious Therapeutics: Body and Health in Yoga, Ayurveda, and Tantra. SUNY Press. Sieler, Roman (2015). Lethal Spots, Vital Secrets: Medicine and Martial Arts in South India. Oxford University Press. Zysk, Kenneth (2016) The Indian System of Human Marks (2 vols). Brill. Our regular book reviews should be between 700 and 1000 words, but there is also the option for shorter book notes (up to 500 words) and essay reviews (over 2,000 words) depending on the particular requirements of the book in question. Expected turn-around time is normally 90 days. Those interested should reply off-list to Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu. Please include your name and full mailing address, and a few sentences about your qualifications to review the book or books. Best, Michael ?? Michael Slouber Assistant Professor of South Asia Department of Liberal Studies Western Washington University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon Apr 4 00:36:50 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 16 02:36:50 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sumangala-vilasini - a request from Warsaw Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I need, urgently, to consult the Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Mahaparinibbana-sutta Has someone, by any lucky chance, a pdf copy of this portion of the Sv? [The first part of the Sv is freely available (pdf format), but not the next two parts. Archive.org has the title, but when it comes to download, what is given is not the pdf of the Sv, but the pdf of "Four New York Boys".] My sincere thanks in advance, Artur Karp Poland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon Apr 4 01:25:04 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 16 03:25:04 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sumangala-vilasini Message-ID: My heartfelt thanks to Professors Ronald Davidson and Lin Qian for their prompt response. Perfectly downloadable copies, clear print. Thank you again, And with highest regards, Artur Karp South Asian Studies Dept. University of Warsaw (emeritus) Poland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 08:26:44 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 16 13:56:44 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A new work monograph on "The Doctrine of Shruti in Indian Music" by Prof. Vinod Vidwans Message-ID: Prof. Vinod Vidwans , Professor and Chair, School of Fine and Performing Arts, FLAME University, Pune, India has come out with his new work a monograph entitled "The Doctrine of Shruti in Indian Music" . Here is the conclusion part of the work: This monograph concludes with five important insights about the concept of *shruti* in Indian music. Firstly, it provides clarity about the five types of *shrutis* mentioned in *Naradiya Shiksha* and their applications. Secondly, the monograph conclusively proves that Bharata?s octave has strong foundations in Vedic *swaras* that eventually resulted in twenty two *shrutis*. Thirdly, the monograph conclusively establishes Bharata?s paradigm of equal temperament twenty two *shrutis* with thorough analysis of Bharata?s original text from *Natyashastra*. Bharata?s *`Shruti Nidarshanam?* experiment as thoroughly discussed is a conclusive proof of the equal temperament twenty two *shrutis*. This also tells a musician, how to establish *shrutis* on *Veena* and perceive them in a step-by-step manner. Fourthly, an attempt has been made to integrate Narada?s paradigm of *shrutis* with Bharata?s paradigm of *shrutis*. Each of Bharata?s *shruti* is considered as a cluster called *Shruti-Punja* or *Shruti Megha*. Every such cluster is divided into five types mentioned in *Naradiya Shiksha* to fine-tune Bharata?s paradigm. Finally, this monograph attempts to accommodate the latest findings of the empirical and computational research in the above-mentioned *Shruti Punja* model. Other important conclusions of this monograph are as follows. Bharata?s paradigm is completely different from *Naradiya Shiksha*. For *Naradiya Shiksha, shrutis* are sonar qualities of a Vedic *swara* while for Bharata *shrutis* are twenty two microtones or distinct places equally distributed (having equal temperament) across the octave. Thus *shrutis* have physical existence and in modern times can be understood in terms of their frequency values. *Shrutis* are not merely mental concepts. Bharata gives highly sophisticated *Shruti-Nidarshanam* or *Sarana-Chatushtaya* experiment to experience and demonstrate twenty two *shruti* that conclusively demonstrates the existence of equal temperament twenty two *shrutis*. The present monograph also developed a different variation of the *Shruti Nidarshanam* experiment as discussed. Computational simulation of the *`Shruti-Nidarshanam?* experiment has helped to clarify many concepts more conclusively. It suggests that computational approach towards musical research is worth exploring and fulfilling at the end. This monograph puts forth two types of arguments: a stronger or primary argument and few secondary arguments. The stronger argument is based on the critical analysis of Bharata?s original Sanskrit text from *Natyashastra* and then the analysis of the *`Shruti Nidarshanam?* experiment as a confirmatory proof of equal temperament twenty two *shrutis*. This stronger argument is the crux of this monograph while other arguments are supplementary in nature. Apart from the stronger argument, this monograph provides a step-by-step method of establishing *swaras* in an octave (*swara-sthapana* or *swara mandala sadhanam*) based on the original text of Bharata. This was not attempted in any other earlier studies. This is another original contribution of this monograph. Computer simulation of *`Shruti Nidarshanam?* experiment and further analysis help in re-establishing Bharata?s paradigm. This led to the development of a *`Shruti-Punja?* or *`Shruti-Megha?* frame-work of equal temperament hundred and ten microtones in an octave. This monograph attempted to argue that Bharata?s paradigm is very robust and highly relevant for Indian music in modern times. With the help of advanced computational technology it can help exploring newer possibilities to enrich Indian music. Those interested in the full work may contact me offline. I shall send the pdf. -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu Mon Apr 4 10:32:21 2016 From: Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu (Toke Knudsen) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 16 10:32:21 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indology and Tibetology to close at the University of Copenhagen Message-ID: Dear all, The University Post just reported that Indology and Tibetology are among a number of small humanities programs that will close at the University of Copenhagen: http://universitypost.dk/article/ucph-confirms-closure-small-humanities-programmes All best, Toke From hr at ivs.edu Mon Apr 4 11:27:02 2016 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 16 06:27:02 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indology and Tibetology to close at the University of Copenhagen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you. The fields of Modern India, and Indian Languages and Culture are to be maintained and reopened in 2017. I wonder to what extent these two areas will cover ancient and pre-modern Indian history and languages. Best, Howard > On Apr 4, 2016, at 5:32 AM, Toke Knudsen wrote: > > Dear all, > > The University Post just reported that Indology and Tibetology are among a number of small humanities programs that will close at the University of Copenhagen: > > http://universitypost.dk/article/ucph-confirms-closure-small-humanities-programmes > > All best, > Toke > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > From jacob at fabularasa.dk Mon Apr 4 11:29:10 2016 From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 16 13:29:10 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lights out for Indology at the University of Copenhagen Message-ID: <0d57261788f3a3df695fd5407df91f99@fabularasa.dk> Dear all, We just received news of this serious blow to the Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies at the University of Copenhagen: http://universitypost.dk/article/ucph-confirms-closure-small-humanities-programmes?utm_source=Universitypost+via+mailman+-+UK&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=Memo%3A+UCPH+to+close+these+humanities+programmes Two centuries of Indology in Denmark seems to be at an end. Best, Jacob Jacob Schmidt-Madsen PhD Fellow (Indology) Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Denmark From jacob at fabularasa.dk Mon Apr 4 11:33:24 2016 From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 16 13:33:24 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indology and Tibetology to close at the University of Copenhagen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Indian Languages and Culture refer to the study of the Americas with special emphasis on Mesoamerica. Best, Jacob Howard Resnick skrev den 2016-04-04 13:27: > Thank you. The fields of Modern India, and Indian Languages and > Culture are to be maintained and reopened in 2017. I wonder to what > extent these two areas will cover ancient and pre-modern Indian > history and languages. > > Best, > Howard > >> On Apr 4, 2016, at 5:32 AM, Toke Knudsen >> wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> >> The University Post just reported that Indology and Tibetology are >> among a number of small humanities programs that will close at the >> University of Copenhagen: >> >> http://universitypost.dk/article/ucph-confirms-closure-small-humanities-programmes >> >> All best, >> Toke >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) From Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu Mon Apr 4 11:36:51 2016 From: Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu (Toke Knudsen) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 16 11:36:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indology and Tibetology to close at the University of Copenhagen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <86D795E1-77EC-4A42-AD9B-3A77CFBC37F6@oneonta.edu> Dear Howard, Looking at the Danish documents available online, it appears that Indology will be kept as a ?tilvalg? (minor) for the bachelor education in Modern India. As such, Sanskrit would still be offered for those studying modern India, but as a tool to understand modern India and not with a view toward an education in Indology. So, while Sanskrit would be offered, it?d be in a much more limited form than is the case now. All best wishes, Toke > On Apr 4, 2016, at 1:27 PM, Howard Resnick
wrote: > > Thank you. The fields of Modern India, and Indian Languages and Culture are to be maintained and reopened in 2017. I wonder to what extent these two areas will cover ancient and pre-modern Indian history and languages. > > Best, > Howard > >> On Apr 4, 2016, at 5:32 AM, Toke Knudsen wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> >> The University Post just reported that Indology and Tibetology are among a number of small humanities programs that will close at the University of Copenhagen: >> >> http://universitypost.dk/article/ucph-confirms-closure-small-humanities-programmes >> >> All best, >> Toke >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From antonio.jardim at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 11:37:32 2016 From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 16 21:37:32 +1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indology and Tibetology to close at the University of Copenhagen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jacob, That is terrible news and similar moves are afoot at the Australian National University. Have there been any attempts to try to procure private funding for an endowed chair of Indology/Tibetology at Uni Copenhagen? Perhaps that might be the only option left? In Australia at least, privately endowed chairs are immune from these mindless cuts. Kind regards, Antonio On 4 Apr 2016 7:34 pm, wrote: > Indian Languages and Culture refer to the study of the Americas with > special emphasis on Mesoamerica. > > Best, > Jacob > > Howard Resnick skrev den 2016-04-04 13:27: > >> Thank you. The fields of Modern India, and Indian Languages and >> Culture are to be maintained and reopened in 2017. I wonder to what >> extent these two areas will cover ancient and pre-modern Indian >> history and languages. >> >> Best, >> Howard >> >> On Apr 4, 2016, at 5:32 AM, Toke Knudsen >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> The University Post just reported that Indology and Tibetology are among >>> a number of small humanities programs that will close at the University of >>> Copenhagen: >>> >>> >>> http://universitypost.dk/article/ucph-confirms-closure-small-humanities-programmes >>> >>> All best, >>> Toke >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From baums at lmu.de Mon Apr 4 11:38:37 2016 From: baums at lmu.de (Stefan Baums) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 16 13:38:37 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indology and Tibetology to close at the University of Copenhagen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20160404113837.GT4228@deepthought> Dear Howard, > The fields of Modern India, and Indian Languages > and Culture are to be maintained and reopened in > 2017. I wonder to what extent these two areas will > cover ancient and pre-modern Indian history and > languages. the official notification from the University of Copenhagen governing board http://bestyrelse.ku.dk/moeder/moeder2016/bestyrelsesmode-82-b/Pkt.04.01.pdf contains the following: INDOLOGI: Lukkes som fuld BA? og KA?uddannelse, men s?ges videref?rt som BA?tilvalg knyttet til uddannelsen i Moderne Indien. [INDOLOGY: Will be closed as full BA and MA course of study, but attempts will be made to continue it as a BA elective associated with the Modern India course of study.] Hardly a consolation, and the formulation ?s?ges? does not inspire confidence in even this much. All best, Stefan -- Dr. Stefan Baums Institute for Indian and Tibetan Studies Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich From jacob at fabularasa.dk Mon Apr 4 11:42:02 2016 From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 16 13:42:02 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indology and Tibetology to close at the University of Copenhagen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not to my knowledge, no. Best, Jacob Antonio Ferreira-Jardim skrev den 2016-04-04 13:37: > Dear Jacob, > > That is terrible news and similar moves are afoot at the Australian > National University. > > Have there been any attempts to try to procure private funding for an > endowed chair of Indology/Tibetology at Uni Copenhagen? Perhaps that > might be the only option left? In Australia at least, privately > endowed chairs are immune from these mindless cuts. > > Kind regards, > Antonio > On 4 Apr 2016 7:34 pm, wrote: > >> Indian Languages and Culture refer to the study of the Americas with >> special emphasis on Mesoamerica. >> >> Best, >> Jacob >> >> Howard Resnick skrev den 2016-04-04 13:27: >> Thank you. The fields of Modern India, and Indian Languages and >> Culture are to be maintained and reopened in 2017. I wonder to what >> extent these two areas will cover ancient and pre-modern Indian >> history and languages. >> >> Best, >> Howard >> >> On Apr 4, 2016, at 5:32 AM, Toke Knudsen >> wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> >> The University Post just reported that Indology and Tibetology are >> among a number of small humanities programs that will close at the >> University of Copenhagen: >> >> > http://universitypost.dk/article/ucph-confirms-closure-small-humanities-programmes >> [1] >> >> All best, >> Toke >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info [2] (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info [2] (where you can change your list >> options >> or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info [2] (where you can change your list > options or unsubscribe) > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > http://universitypost.dk/article/ucph-confirms-closure-small-humanities-programmes > [2] http://listinfo.indology.info From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 05:32:03 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 16 11:02:03 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A new work monograph on "The Doctrine of Shruti in Indian Music" by Prof. Vinod Vidwans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Now the full book can be downloaded from http://www.computationalmusic.com/pdfs/The-Doctrine-of-Shruti-in-Indian-Music.pdf On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Prof. Vinod Vidwans , Professor and Chair, School of Fine and Performing > Arts, FLAME University, Pune, India has come out with his new work a > monograph entitled "The Doctrine of Shruti in Indian Music" . > > Here is the conclusion part of the work: > > This monograph concludes with five important insights about the concept of > *shruti* in Indian music. Firstly, it provides clarity about the five > types of *shrutis* mentioned in *Naradiya Shiksha* and their > applications. Secondly, the monograph conclusively proves that Bharata?s > octave has strong foundations in Vedic *swaras* that eventually resulted > in twenty two *shrutis*. Thirdly, the monograph conclusively establishes > Bharata?s paradigm of equal temperament twenty two *shrutis* with > thorough analysis of Bharata?s original text from *Natyashastra*. > Bharata?s *`Shruti Nidarshanam?* experiment as thoroughly discussed is a > conclusive proof of the equal temperament twenty two *shrutis*. This also > tells a musician, how to establish *shrutis* on *Veena* and perceive them > in a step-by-step manner. Fourthly, an attempt has been made to integrate > Narada?s paradigm of *shrutis* with Bharata?s paradigm of *shrutis*. Each > of Bharata?s *shruti* is considered as a cluster called *Shruti-Punja* or *Shruti > Megha*. Every such cluster is divided into five types mentioned in *Naradiya > Shiksha* to fine-tune Bharata?s paradigm. Finally, this monograph > attempts to accommodate the latest findings of the empirical and > computational research in the above-mentioned *Shruti Punja* model. > > > > Other important conclusions of this monograph are as follows. > > Bharata?s paradigm is completely different from *Naradiya Shiksha*. For *Naradiya > Shiksha, shrutis* are sonar qualities of a Vedic *swara* while for > Bharata *shrutis* are twenty two microtones or distinct places equally > distributed (having equal temperament) across the octave. Thus *shrutis* > have physical existence and in modern times can be understood in terms of > their frequency values. *Shrutis* are not merely mental concepts. Bharata > gives highly sophisticated *Shruti-Nidarshanam* or *Sarana-Chatushtaya* > experiment to experience and demonstrate twenty two *shruti* that > conclusively demonstrates the existence of equal temperament twenty two > *shrutis*. The present monograph also developed a different variation of > the *Shruti Nidarshanam* experiment as discussed. Computational > simulation of the *`Shruti-Nidarshanam?* experiment has helped to clarify > many concepts more conclusively. It suggests that computational approach > towards musical research is worth exploring and fulfilling at the end. > > This monograph puts forth two types of arguments: a stronger or primary > argument and few secondary arguments. The stronger argument is based on the > critical analysis of Bharata?s original Sanskrit text from *Natyashastra* > and then the analysis of the *`Shruti Nidarshanam?* experiment as a > confirmatory proof of equal temperament twenty two *shrutis*. This > stronger argument is the crux of this monograph while other arguments are > supplementary in nature. > > Apart from the stronger argument, this monograph provides a step-by-step > method of establishing *swaras* in an octave (*swara-sthapana* or *swara > mandala sadhanam*) based on the original text of Bharata. This was not > attempted in any other earlier studies. This is another original > contribution of this monograph. > > Computer simulation of *`Shruti Nidarshanam?* experiment and further > analysis help in re-establishing Bharata?s paradigm. This led to the > development of a *`Shruti-Punja?* or *`Shruti-Megha?* frame-work of equal > temperament hundred and ten microtones in an octave. > > This monograph attempted to argue that Bharata?s paradigm is very robust > and highly relevant for Indian music in modern times. With the help of > advanced computational technology it can help exploring newer possibilities > to enrich Indian music. > > > Those interested in the full work may contact me offline. I shall send the > pdf. > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 05:43:39 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 16 15:43:39 +1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] chakras and vedic meditation Message-ID: Dear Friends, Where might I find the first mention of *cakras* as an energetic system used for meditation? How old might these texts be? I thought that a significant portion was developed from Buddhist and tantric praxis? I am currently analysing marketing material from yoga organisations to better understand the 'vedic way of life' and 'vedic lifestyle'. There seems to be a conflation of several facets of puranic and upanishadic concepts with 'vedic' into something of a neo-Hindu and/or neo-vedanta 'soup'. Among other things I am interested in what constitutes this particular lifestyle and how it is used to create a sense of authenticity and legitimacy. One example, in particular, is the idea of 'vedic meditation'. The picture of a god used in one example seems to have very little to do with the vedic period at all. I could be wrong. Does anyone know which particular god this image is? Thanks in advance. All the best, Patrick McCartney PhD Candidate School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile * - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be https://youtu.be/7tAp8m9RHPU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 06:20:55 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 16 11:50:55 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A new work monograph on "The Doctrine of Shruti in Indian Music" by Prof. Vinod Vidwans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://www.computationalmusic.com/ is the website of Prof. Vidwans. Feedback on the book may be sent to him at vinodvidwans at gmail.com On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Prof. Vinod Vidwans , Professor and Chair, School of Fine and Performing > Arts, FLAME University, Pune, India has come out with his new work a > monograph entitled "The Doctrine of Shruti in Indian Music" . > > Here is the conclusion part of the work: > > This monograph concludes with five important insights about the concept of > *shruti* in Indian music. Firstly, it provides clarity about the five > types of *shrutis* mentioned in *Naradiya Shiksha* and their > applications. Secondly, the monograph conclusively proves that Bharata?s > octave has strong foundations in Vedic *swaras* that eventually resulted > in twenty two *shrutis*. Thirdly, the monograph conclusively establishes > Bharata?s paradigm of equal temperament twenty two *shrutis* with > thorough analysis of Bharata?s original text from *Natyashastra*. > Bharata?s *`Shruti Nidarshanam?* experiment as thoroughly discussed is a > conclusive proof of the equal temperament twenty two *shrutis*. This also > tells a musician, how to establish *shrutis* on *Veena* and perceive them > in a step-by-step manner. Fourthly, an attempt has been made to integrate > Narada?s paradigm of *shrutis* with Bharata?s paradigm of *shrutis*. Each > of Bharata?s *shruti* is considered as a cluster called *Shruti-Punja* or *Shruti > Megha*. Every such cluster is divided into five types mentioned in *Naradiya > Shiksha* to fine-tune Bharata?s paradigm. Finally, this monograph > attempts to accommodate the latest findings of the empirical and > computational research in the above-mentioned *Shruti Punja* model. > > > > Other important conclusions of this monograph are as follows. > > Bharata?s paradigm is completely different from *Naradiya Shiksha*. For *Naradiya > Shiksha, shrutis* are sonar qualities of a Vedic *swara* while for > Bharata *shrutis* are twenty two microtones or distinct places equally > distributed (having equal temperament) across the octave. Thus *shrutis* > have physical existence and in modern times can be understood in terms of > their frequency values. *Shrutis* are not merely mental concepts. Bharata > gives highly sophisticated *Shruti-Nidarshanam* or *Sarana-Chatushtaya* > experiment to experience and demonstrate twenty two *shruti* that > conclusively demonstrates the existence of equal temperament twenty two > *shrutis*. The present monograph also developed a different variation of > the *Shruti Nidarshanam* experiment as discussed. Computational > simulation of the *`Shruti-Nidarshanam?* experiment has helped to clarify > many concepts more conclusively. It suggests that computational approach > towards musical research is worth exploring and fulfilling at the end. > > This monograph puts forth two types of arguments: a stronger or primary > argument and few secondary arguments. The stronger argument is based on the > critical analysis of Bharata?s original Sanskrit text from *Natyashastra* > and then the analysis of the *`Shruti Nidarshanam?* experiment as a > confirmatory proof of equal temperament twenty two *shrutis*. This > stronger argument is the crux of this monograph while other arguments are > supplementary in nature. > > Apart from the stronger argument, this monograph provides a step-by-step > method of establishing *swaras* in an octave (*swara-sthapana* or *swara > mandala sadhanam*) based on the original text of Bharata. This was not > attempted in any other earlier studies. This is another original > contribution of this monograph. > > Computer simulation of *`Shruti Nidarshanam?* experiment and further > analysis help in re-establishing Bharata?s paradigm. This led to the > development of a *`Shruti-Punja?* or *`Shruti-Megha?* frame-work of equal > temperament hundred and ten microtones in an octave. > > This monograph attempted to argue that Bharata?s paradigm is very robust > and highly relevant for Indian music in modern times. With the help of > advanced computational technology it can help exploring newer possibilities > to enrich Indian music. > > > Those interested in the full work may contact me offline. I shall send the > pdf. > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 06:44:21 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 16 12:14:21 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] chakras and vedic meditation Message-ID: ???????????????? *?????* ???????????? from ????????????? ????????????????? ???????? ?? ??????? ?? ??????????? ???? ?????????? ???????????? ??????? ??????? ????????? ???? ???? ??????? ???????????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????????? ??????????????????????? ????? ?????????????????? ??????? ??????????? ? ??????? ????????? ???????????? ?????? ? ?????? ??????????????? ??????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ??????? ??????: ???? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ????????????????? ??????? ?????????? ?? ? ???????????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ?????: ? ??????????? ???? ???????????? ????????????? ???????????????? *?????* ???????????? ? ??? ???????? ????????????? ??????????? ???????? ????????????? ???? ????????????? ????? ?????? ?????????? ??????????????????? ? ????????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ? ???? ????? ?????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ????? ???????????????????? ??????????? ??????? ????????? ???? ????????????????? ???? ????? ????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ????????????? ??????? ? ???????????????? ???? ????????????? ? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????? ??????????? ? ?????? ? ???? ? ???? ???????? ???????? ???? ??????? ? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????????????? ?????????? ?????????? ?????????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ????????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????????? ? ?? ??????? ??????? ??????? Is considered to be related to the anaahata meditation mentioned in the website. -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Wed Apr 6 06:55:29 2016 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 16 06:55:29 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] chakras and vedic meditation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047B6A956@xm-mbx-04-prod> Hi Patrick, The goddess is Gaja-lakshm? and you're right that this is a new age soup. 'Veda' has of course long been used in India to refer to 'sacred knowledge' in a much broader sense than what we think of as the Vedic corpus, but I have the impression that the secondary use has absolutely proliferated in Indian popular culture in recent years, and now with the encouragements of those in power. The historical unpacking of the subtle body systems one finds in Hathayoga and later Buddhist tantra has not so far, to the best of my knowledge, been done. But I think it's safe to say that the frameworks invoked by groups like those you are studying are not fully in evidence before the last half of the second millennium, though some elements (e.g. the 'winds') do have very early antecedants. good luck, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________________ From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Wed Apr 6 07:18:18 2016 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 16 07:18:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] chakras and vedic meditation In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047B6A956@xm-mbx-04-prod> Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047B6A975@xm-mbx-04-prod> Dear Patrick, Possibly of interest if you don't know it already: Tara Michael, Corps Subtil et Corps Causal: Les Six Cakra et le Kundalini Yoga (Paris: Le Courrier du Livre, 1979). Not much in the way of analysis, but an interesting selection of texts on the topic, mostly dated by the author to the late first millenium. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________________ From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au Wed Apr 6 07:32:18 2016 From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 16 07:32:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 5-minute video -- Spoken Sanskrit Summer School in Australia Message-ID: Dear Colleagues I hope you will enjoy this short video from the Third Australian Spoken Sanskrit Summer School, 7-19 Feb 2016, Kiola, NSW. https://youtu.be/47mJQEj3yZQ [https://i.ytimg.com/vi/47mJQEj3yZQ/maxresdefault.jpg] Spoken Sanskrit Summer School, Australin National University, Feb 2016 youtu.be The Third Australian Spoken Sanskrit Summer School was held at the Australian National University's coastal campus, Kioloa, NSW, in February 2016. Thanks to ... Yours McComas ________________________________ McComas Taylor, Associate Professor College of Asia and the Pacific The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179 Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/ Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200 Spoken Sanskrit in three minutes? Go on. Try it! ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 09:55:56 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 16 19:55:56 +1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] new film about 'sanskrit land' Message-ID: Dear Friends, I have just uploaded the first episode in a series of ethnographic short films I am making about the 'Sanskrit village' Jhiri in Madhya Pradesh, India. I hope you enjoy it. https://www.academia.edu/24107065/Imagining_Sanskrit_Land_-_Filmed_and_Produced_by_Patrick_McCartney All the best, Patrick McCartney PhD Candidate School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile * - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJy_Oqnqag8 http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be https://youtu.be/7tAp8m9RHPU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 15:43:19 2016 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (dhaval patel) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 16 21:13:19 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] SanskritVerb - A verb form generator In-Reply-To: <53ba1956-8255-45b4-bca2-39c455d29ff6@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Not right now. Once I am sure about the output of the code, I plan to store the output in XML file or some kind of database and then the reverse query can be easily handled. That would take at least take 6 months looking at the bugs we deal right now. But definitely on the radar. On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 11:40 AM, Pradyumna Achar wrote: > Dear Dr. Patel, > > The tool is very useful and informative. Thank you. > > Is there a facility for the reverse query, i.e., given a form like "????" > is there a facility to tell what are all the possible ways by which it can > be arrived at? > I think that would be useful while reading an existing text and trying to > understand the meaning. (Eg: I came across a word recently -- > ??????????????? -- ???+??+*?????*+???+????? ). > > Regards, > Pradyumna > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sanskrit-programmers" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sanskrit-programmers+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Anand www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 18:35:24 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 16 12:35:24 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Half a four-year Sanskrit senior lectureship at SOAS Message-ID: Details at: - http://www24.i-grasp.com/fe/tpl_soasnet01.asp?newms=jj&id=67034&newlang=1 Closing date 19 April. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 18:51:41 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 16 12:51:41 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] chakras and vedic meditation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good writings on the body, including the cakras, can be found in - Bouillier, V?. & Tarabout, G. *(Eds.) Images du corps dans le monde hindou **CNRS ?ditions, **2002* - Michaels, A. & Wulf, C. *(Eds.) The Body in India: Ritual, Transgression, Performativity. *Akademie Verlag, *2009*, 18 On one of the earliest Sanskrit descriptions of cakras, see - Heilijgers-Seelen, D. *The System of Five *Cakra*s in Kubjik?matatantra 14--16. *Egbert Forsten, *1994* The tantra specialists will offer more precision, but the *Kubjikamata* and similar-period texts (*M?lin?vijayottara*) are among the earliest mentions of the cakra system as we know it. The dates are as Matthew said, end of the first millennium CE. Yoga-Patanjali mentions the n?bhi cakra in his *P?ta?jalayoga??stra *(SARIT ), but to me this seems more related to medical models of the body, where sir?s and dhaman?s converge on the n?bhi, than to much later multi-cakra models of pr??a and visualization that are developed in tantra. Best, Dominik See also Wujastyk 2009: 199-200 . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 16:08:32 2016 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 16 21:38:32 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rig Veda text and translation Message-ID: Dear list members can you suggest and share Rig Veda text and translation pdf? is the translation by H D Velankar available? regards Rupali Moakshi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au Thu Apr 7 22:19:34 2016 From: Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au (Greg Bailey) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 16 22:19:34 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Lak=E1=B9=A3m=C4=AB_Pur=C4=81=E1=B9=87a?= Message-ID: Dear List, Does anybody know of the existence of a Lak?m? Pur??a in manuscript or printed form. Apparently there is one in Oriya and I am wondering I there is a Sanskrit version. Thanks in advance. Greg Bailey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org Thu Apr 7 22:34:48 2016 From: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org (Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 16 10:34:48 +1200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Lak=E1=B9=A3m=C4=AB_Pur=C4=81=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5706E088.8070202@indica-et-buddhica.org> Dear Greg, On 2016-04-08 10:19, Greg Bailey wrote: > Dear List, > > Does anybody know of the existence of a Lak?m? Pur??a in manuscript or > printed form. Apparently there is one in Oriya and I am wondering I > there is a Sanskrit version. An Oriya MS appears to be in Gottingen. Scholia ~ Zeitschriftendatenbank (ZDB) Result: Title = Lak?m?-Pur??a returned 1 record(s). http://scholia.indica-et-buddhica.org/search/zdb.sch?attribute=@attr%201=4&query=Lak%E1%B9%A3m%C4%AB-Pur%C4%81%E1%B9%87a&displayform=2&num=1&start=1 Best, R -- Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica Littledene Bay Road Oxford 7430 NZ M: +64-21-064-0216 T: +64-3-312-1699 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 473 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in Fri Apr 8 04:09:08 2016 From: alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in (Alex Watson) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 16 09:39:08 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two postdoctoral research fellowships in Indian Philosophy at Wolfson College Oxford Message-ID: Dear List Members See the following mail from Richard Sorabji about two PostDoc research fellowships in Indian Philosophy at Wolfson College, Oxford. The advert and further particulars are attached. Application deadline is May 13th. Yours Alex -- Alex Watson Professor of Indian Philosophy Ashoka University *https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson * ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Richard Sorabji Date: Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 8:12 PM Subject: Advertisement and further particulars for two 2-year postdoctoral research fellowships in Indian Philosophy at Wolfson College Oxford, starting 2016 Dear Friends, I am attaching an advertisement and further particulars for two 2-year postdoctoral research fellowships in Indian Philosophy at Wolfson College Oxford, applications and references due by 13 May to start in Wolfson this October, 2016. The required part of the research concerns the application of Indian Philosophy to certain socio-political issues listed here by the Berggruen Institute, some more and some less closely connected with Indian Philosophy, because the philosophies of other cultures are also being accommodated on other sites. The reason why some postdoctoral experience is required is that these posts are more generously funded than Wolfson Junior Research fellowships, so as to guarantee substantial research in the area. Wolfson was envisaging typically between 3 and 10 years from the relevant PhD. But if equivalent experience can be claimed, candidates should not hesitate to make a special case. Provided the substantial research in this area is produced, postholders are free to publish on their other interests as well. Other schools of Indian Philosophy can be researched besides the ones I have listed as examples. Do let me know if you know of good candidates. All good wishes Yours Richard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Berggruenadvert2016.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 90222 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BerggruenFPs2016.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 144916 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeb2104 at columbia.edu Fri Apr 8 16:50:43 2016 From: jeb2104 at columbia.edu (jeb2104) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 16 12:50:43 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] studies of Sati myth / Shakta Pithas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <64170C1A-14C5-4584-8409-2AF8B2AA8970@columbia.edu> Dear friends, I?m need of some help in finding secondary materials in English on the Sati myth (i.e. Daksha's sacrifice and aftermath). Looking especially for feminist and/or psychoanalytic readings ? however problematic ? of the goddess? self-immolation and dismemberment motif that could spark debate in a classroom context. Retellings of the story from more contemporary perspectives could be useful as well. Having trouble so far tracking down any sustained treatment that doesn?t veer almost immediately from the Puranic context into a discussion of ?suttee,? which I?m hoping to keep as a somewhat separate issue. Alternately or additionally, if you know of studies of grouped or individual Shakta Pithas that specifically take up the implications of how practices at particular locations relate to these myths, those would be most welcome too. Know of some work on Kamakhya but beyond that I fear I?m rather at a loss. With pranams and thanks, J. Joel Bordeaux Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Religion Colgate University bordeauxjoel at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 22:01:56 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 16 16:01:56 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Lak=E1=B9=A3m=C4=AB_Pur=C4=81=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: NCC v.26, p.85 lists a single Lak?m?pur??a MS as "Vi?vabh?rat? 2602". ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sat Apr 9 09:58:29 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 16 11:58:29 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M. Mehta's paper Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Has someone a PDF copy of M. Mehta's 1971 paper on the developments of the Suparna myth? Mehta, M. "*The Evolution of the Suparna Sage in the Mahabharata.*" Journal of the Oriental Institute, of Baroda 21, nos. 1-2 (1971): 41-65. Your kind help would be greatly appreciated, Artur Karp Warsaw Poland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 15:47:42 2016 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 16 09:47:42 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rig Veda text and translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Rupali Mokashi, Unless you received replies off-list, it may be that your query from two days ago was regarded as too general. Reading between the lines, perhaps you are seeking information or recommendations for specific Sanskrit editions and English translations of the ?gveda. Is this so? If so, such information might also be useful to others on this list. Regarding H. D. Velankar?s translation, as far as I know, his only published translations are of ma??alas 2 (1966), 3 (1968), 5 (2003), and 7 (1963), and parts of others in various collections. I was able to find three scans of ma??ala 7 (but no other ma??alas) at Digital Library of India, of which the best quality scan is the one titled, Bharatiya Vidya Series Rgveda Mandala Vol.23 No.23: http://www.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/135247 Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Dr. Rupali Mokashi < dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com> wrote: > Dear list members > can you suggest and share Rig Veda text and translation pdf? is the > translation by H D Velankar available? > regards > Rupali Moakshi > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Sat Apr 9 23:06:13 2016 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 16 01:06:13 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Lak=E1=B9=A3m=C4=AB_Pur=C4=81=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20160410010613.e7165f72cec8179b3e125f50@ff.cuni.cz> One Oriya MS is in Bhuvaneshvar Museum (no. 147, according to J. M. Bhattacharjee, Catalogus Catalogorum of Bengali Manuscripts, p. 357). LO On Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:01:56 -0600 Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > NCC v.26, p.85 lists a single Lak?m?pur??a MS as "Vi?vabh?rat? 2602". > ? From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 04:51:54 2016 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 16 10:21:54 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Lak=E1=B9=A3m=C4=AB_Pur=C4=81=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: <20160410010613.e7165f72cec8179b3e125f50@ff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: This may be checked. One might write to Prof. Tapati Mukherjee, Lipika, Manuscriptorium, Visva Bharati, Santiniketan. Her email id is not immediately with me but I may find that later. Best DB On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 4:36 AM, Lubomir Ondracka wrote: > One Oriya MS is in Bhuvaneshvar Museum (no. 147, according to J. M. > Bhattacharjee, Catalogus Catalogorum of Bengali Manuscripts, p. 357). > LO > > On Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:01:56 -0600 > Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > NCC v.26, p.85 lists a single Lak?m?pur??a MS as "Vi?vabh?rat? 2602". > > ? > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 06:52:15 2016 From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 16 12:22:15 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Georg_B=C3=BChler's_"Detailed_report_of_a_tour_in_Kashmir_(1877)"?= Message-ID: Dear All, I am not able to find my hardcopy / soft copy of Georg B?hler's famous "*Detailed report of a tour in Kashmir* (1877)". Would someone have it handy? I would really appreciate if you can share a PDF. Thanks very much in advance and best wishes. Mrinal ------ Mrinal Kaul Manipal Centre for Philosophy and Humanities (MCPH) Manipal University Dr TMA Pai Planetarium Complex Alevoor Road, Manipal, Udupi 576 104 Karnataka, INDIA Tel: +91-820-2923567 (O) Tel: +91-820-2574838 (R) https://manipal.academia.edu/MrinalKaul http://mcphcommunity.org e-mail: mrinal.kaul at manipal.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 07:25:05 2016 From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 16 12:55:05 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Georg_B=C3=BChler's_"Detailed_report_of_a_tour_in_Kashmir_(1877)"?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to Isabelle Rati?. I already have a PDF of Georg B?hler's *Kashmir Report*. Thanks so much to her and the Indology group. Best wishes. Mrinal On 10 April 2016 at 12:22, Mrinal Kaul wrote: > Dear All, > > I am not able to find my hardcopy / soft copy of Georg B?hler's famous "*Detailed > report of a tour in Kashmir* (1877)". Would someone have it handy? I > would really appreciate if you can share a PDF. > > Thanks very much in advance and best wishes. > > Mrinal > > ------ > Mrinal Kaul > Manipal Centre for Philosophy and Humanities (MCPH) > Manipal University > Dr TMA Pai Planetarium Complex > Alevoor Road, Manipal, Udupi 576 104 > Karnataka, INDIA > Tel: +91-820-2923567 (O) > Tel: +91-820-2574838 (R) > https://manipal.academia.edu/MrinalKaul > http://mcphcommunity.org > e-mail: mrinal.kaul at manipal.edu > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dchakra at hotmail.de Sun Apr 10 09:36:11 2016 From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 16 09:36:11 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Erwin H. Ackerknecht , "George Forster, Alexander von Humboldt, and Ethnology, " Message-ID: Dear List Members, Could anybody send me a pdf of the following? Erwin H. Ackerknecht , "George Forster, Alexander von Humboldt, and Ethnology," Isis46, no. 2 (Jun., 1955): 83-95. DOI: 10.1086/348401 Regards Debabrata Chakrabarti ???This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.??? ??? Anandamayi Ma ???Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.??? - Paracelsus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sun Apr 10 14:34:53 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 16 16:34:53 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins Message-ID: Dear All, Could you please help me re: Prof. Johannes Bronkhost's article? "*Misunderstood origins: how Buddhism fooled modern scholarship - and itself*" (published in: *The Complex Heritage of Early India*. Essays in Memory of R. S. Sharma, ed. D. N. Jha, New Delhi: *Manohar, 2014*, pp. 307-325) ISBN 978-93-5098-058-3 The book is not accessible via Amazon.com. Also Manohar - strangely - does not recognize the title.Although the book is mentioned on the Professor Sharma's Wikpipedia page (Reference, second position) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_Sharan_Sharma Professor Bronkhorst (whom I contacted) is at present far from his home, and has no way how to access it. I have a copy of this text, http://my.unil.ch/serval/document/BIB_C47B43464741.p *df* but it's without original pagination. I must - must! - quote from it, and that is why I dare to ask you for help. With regards, Artur Karp (emeritus) South Asian Studies Dept. University of Warsaw Poland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 16:37:19 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 16 10:37:19 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Georg_B=C3=BChler's_"Detailed_report_of_a_tour_in_Kashmir_(1877)"?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You've got what you needed from Isabelle, so all's fine. But may I mention that B?hler's 1877 report is in the collection of scanned catalogues at http://catalogues.indology.info (Biswas 846), along with zome of the other reports by Bhandarkar, Kielhorn etc. Coverage is spotty, but I add such reports whenever I find them. The B?hler 1877 PDF is the one scanned by GRETIL. Best, Dominik ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 03:56:59 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 16 21:56:59 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This raises an interesting point about the nature of citation. In the case of this paper, the preprint or typescript or whatever it is, the author's recension (like a "director's cut"), is much more easily available than the printed book version. It's right there on the internet at unil.ch and also amongst Bronkhorst's papers at academia.edu , just the click of a mouse away. So I think there is a good argument for citing these recensions of the paper rather than the book. And this is especially the case if the author's recension is what you've actually been reading. One should of course cite this like a web page, with URL and date of consultation. The quest for a page number in an inaccessible printed book is based on an idea that the book is more real, in some sense, more valid or stable than the author's recension. But I think that belief can probably be challenged quite strongly. Best, Dominik Wujastyk ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon Apr 11 04:13:38 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 06:13:38 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > idea that the book is more real, in some sense, more valid or stable than the author's recension Old habits die hard. Thank you, Dominik. I'll act on your advice. Web page, URL & date of access. Best, Artur Karp 2016-04-11 5:56 GMT+02:00 Dominik Wujastyk : > This raises an interesting point about the nature of citation. In the > case of this paper, the preprint or typescript or whatever it is, the > author's recension (like a "director's cut"), is much more easily available > than the printed book version. It's right there on the internet at > unil.ch and also amongst Bronkhorst's papers at academia.edu > , > just the click of a mouse away. So I think there is a good argument for > citing these recensions of the paper rather than the book. And this is > especially the case if the author's recension is what you've actually been > reading. One should of course cite this like a web page, with URL and date > of consultation. > > The quest for a page number in an inaccessible printed book is based on an > idea that the book is more real, in some sense, more valid or stable than > the author's recension. But I think that belief can probably be challenged > quite strongly. > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > ? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 06:36:00 2016 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 08:36:00 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, Dominik, yes, it *is* more stable, though perhaps no more 'real' than --not 'the author's recension' --the paper posted to a non-stable URL without DOI that could as easily disappear tomorrow. As long as we still have printed books (which thank heaven I guess will stay around at least during my lifetime, however much of that is left), the presumption is that a reader interested in tracking the reference should be able to see exactly what the citer saw. With ephemeral web materials that is simply not true -- as you of course know very very well, so I presume that you might have been 'trolling' a bit to start a discussion? ;) jonathan On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 5:56 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > This raises an interesting point about the nature of citation. In the > case of this paper, the preprint or typescript or whatever it is, the > author's recension (like a "director's cut"), is much more easily available > than the printed book version. It's right there on the internet at > unil.ch and also amongst Bronkhorst's papers at academia.edu > , > just the click of a mouse away. So I think there is a good argument for > citing these recensions of the paper rather than the book. And this is > especially the case if the author's recension is what you've actually been > reading. One should of course cite this like a web page, with URL and date > of consultation. > > The quest for a page number in an inaccessible printed book is based on an > idea that the book is more real, in some sense, more valid or stable than > the author's recension. But I think that belief can probably be challenged > quite strongly. > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > ? > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Mon Apr 11 07:42:37 2016 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 09:42:37 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20160411094237.Horde.IyRyRGjBlTzCsrdmH1KW78T@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> In support of Prof. Silk's remarks I would like to point to the following short paper by Claudius Naumann: "Versiegende Quellen. Einige Anmerkungen ?ber den Sinn und Unsinn von Internet-Verweisen in wissenschaftlichen Arbeiten". In: Zeitschrift der deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 162.2 (2012), pp. 460-464. Best, Roland Steiner From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon Apr 11 10:30:45 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 12:30:45 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: <20160411094237.Horde.IyRyRGjBlTzCsrdmH1KW78T@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: > a bit to start a discussion? ;) Frankly? Quite frankly - I'd rather prefer following the discussion on the contents of Prof. Bronkhorst's paper. Or - is there somewhere a trace of the Buddhologists' (Historians of India, Historians of Indian Literature) reaction to its theses? Best, Artur Karp 2016-04-11 9:42 GMT+02:00 Roland Steiner : > In support of Prof. Silk's remarks I would like to point to the following > short paper by Claudius Naumann: > > "Versiegende Quellen. Einige Anmerkungen ?ber den Sinn und Unsinn von > Internet-Verweisen in wissenschaftlichen Arbeiten". In: Zeitschrift der > deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 162.2 (2012), pp. 460-464. > > Best, > Roland Steiner > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 11:09:30 2016 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 13:09:30 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am not sure what you specifically wish to discuss, but I dare to attach here something which I wrote on Bronkhorst's book which, I believe, begins to engage some of his ideas... Jonathan On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > > a bit to start a discussion? ;) > > Frankly? > > Quite frankly - I'd rather prefer following the discussion on the contents > of Prof. Bronkhorst's paper. > > Or - is there somewhere a trace of the Buddhologists' (Historians of > India, Historians of Indian Literature) reaction to its theses? > > Best, > > Artur Karp > > 2016-04-11 9:42 GMT+02:00 Roland Steiner : > >> In support of Prof. Silk's remarks I would like to point to the following >> short paper by Claudius Naumann: >> >> "Versiegende Quellen. Einige Anmerkungen ?ber den Sinn und Unsinn von >> Internet-Verweisen in wissenschaftlichen Arbeiten". In: Zeitschrift der >> deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 162.2 (2012), pp. 460-464. >> >> Best, >> Roland Steiner >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SilkRevBronkhorstBuddhistShadowIIJ2015.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 143771 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de Mon Apr 11 13:58:33 2016 From: mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Mehner, Maximilian | GRETIL) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 13:58:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #471 Message-ID: GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Samantapasadika, Vol. I-IV: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/#Samantp For any questions and suggestions regarding GRETIL as well as for contributing texts please contact our new address (gretil at sub.uni-goettingen.de). Just as my predecessor Reinhold Gr?nendahl has done in the past, I will keep you updated on new additions and further changes. Yours sincerely, Maximilian Mehner __________________________________________________________________________ GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon Apr 11 15:23:32 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 17:23:32 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M. Mehta's paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All, Dr. Sweta Prajapati of the Baroda Oriental Institute Journal has kindly sent me excelent scans of Mahesh Mehta's paper. My sincere gratitude to her for her help --- Artur Karp 2016-04-09 11:58 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > Dear Colleagues, > > Has someone a PDF copy of M. Mehta's 1971 paper on the developments of the > Suparna myth? > > Mehta, M. "*The Evolution of the Suparna Sage in the Mahabharata.*" > Journal of the Oriental Institute, of Baroda 21, nos. > 1-2 (1971): 41-65. > > Your kind help would be greatly appreciated, > > Artur Karp > Warsaw > Poland > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jacob at fabularasa.dk Mon Apr 11 16:22:56 2016 From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 18:22:56 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Ma=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Dal=C4=81r=C4=81dhana_(Diagram_Worship_in_=C4=80gamas)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear list, I am looking for the following article: P. P. Apte (1973) "Ma??al?r?dhana (Diagram Worship in ?gamas)" in Journal of the Oriental Institute (Baroda) no. 22, pp. 501-24. I wrote the Oriental Institute about it a month ago, but I never heard back from them. So, before I write them again, I thought I would give it a try here. Regards, Jacob Jacob Schmidt-Madsen PhD Fellow (Indology) Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Denmark From michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de Mon Apr 11 16:26:18 2016 From: michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Michaels, Axel) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 16:26:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: More reviews on Johannes Bronkhorst?s thesis: Konrad Klaus in Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 161 (2011): 216-221, Jason Neelis in Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 18.3 (2008): 381-3; John Cort, Religious Studies Review 33.2 (2007): 171-172; K.T.S. Sarao in Orientalische Literatur-Zeitung 103.2 (2008): 250-254; R?diger Schmitt in Acta Orientalia 69 2008: 319-32, and Alexander Wynne in the H-Buddhism List (July 2011). Best, xel Michaels Von: INDOLOGY > im Auftrag von Artur Karp > Datum: Monday 11 April 2016 at 12:30 An: Roland Steiner > Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" > Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins > a bit to start a discussion? ;) Frankly? Quite frankly - I'd rather prefer following the discussion on the contents of Prof. Bronkhorst's paper. Or - is there somewhere a trace of the Buddhologists' (Historians of India, Historians of Indian Literature) reaction to its theses? Best, Artur Karp 2016-04-11 9:42 GMT+02:00 Roland Steiner >: In support of Prof. Silk's remarks I would like to point to the following short paper by Claudius Naumann: "Versiegende Quellen. Einige Anmerkungen ?ber den Sinn und Unsinn von Internet-Verweisen in wissenschaftlichen Arbeiten". In: Zeitschrift der deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 162.2 (2012), pp. 460-464. Best, Roland Steiner _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Mon Apr 11 16:33:53 2016 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 16:33:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And now also: Timothy Lubin, ?Greater Magadha and the New Brahmanism: Recent Publications by Johannes Bronkhorst,? Religious Studies Review 41.3 (2015): 93?100. Best, TL From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of "Michaels, Axel" > Date: Monday, April 11, 2016 at 12:26 PM To: indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins More reviews on Johannes Bronkhorst?s thesis: Konrad Klaus in Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 161 (2011): 216-221, Jason Neelis in Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 18.3 (2008): 381-3; John Cort, Religious Studies Review 33.2 (2007): 171-172; K.T.S. Sarao in Orientalische Literatur-Zeitung 103.2 (2008): 250-254; R?diger Schmitt in Acta Orientalia 69 2008: 319-32, and Alexander Wynne in the H-Buddhism List (July 2011). Best, xel Michaels Von: INDOLOGY > im Auftrag von Artur Karp > Datum: Monday 11 April 2016 at 12:30 An: Roland Steiner > Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" > Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins > a bit to start a discussion? ;) Frankly? Quite frankly - I'd rather prefer following the discussion on the contents of Prof. Bronkhorst's paper. Or - is there somewhere a trace of the Buddhologists' (Historians of India, Historians of Indian Literature) reaction to its theses? Best, Artur Karp 2016-04-11 9:42 GMT+02:00 Roland Steiner >: In support of Prof. Silk's remarks I would like to point to the following short paper by Claudius Naumann: "Versiegende Quellen. Einige Anmerkungen ?ber den Sinn und Unsinn von Internet-Verweisen in wissenschaftlichen Arbeiten". In: Zeitschrift der deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 162.2 (2012), pp. 460-464. Best, Roland Steiner _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Mon Apr 11 17:21:50 2016 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 10:21:50 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... Message-ID: <4494A362-441E-4AA1-8E2B-D1681A7C6EF4@earthlink.net> Dear List Members, Recently, there was a webmail entry in a Tamil forum about including a language-name in one?s personal name. There are numerous personal names that include the word ?Tamil? in some form. So, the author of the enquiry was wondering if there would be a similar practice in other languages. I know for sure that "English? is the last of name of some individuals I know. Further examples and descriptions would be appreciated. Thanks and regards, rajam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Mon Apr 11 17:57:15 2016 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 17:57:15 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... In-Reply-To: <4494A362-441E-4AA1-8E2B-D1681A7C6EF4@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Dear Rajam, if you are referring to Johnny English, the movie by Rowan Atkinson, the name is a joke. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens rajam [rajam at earthlink.net] Verzonden: maandag 11 april 2016 19:21 Aan: INDOLOGY Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... Dear List Members, Recently, there was a webmail entry in a Tamil forum about including a language-name in one?s personal name. There are numerous personal names that include the word ?Tamil? in some form. So, the author of the enquiry was wondering if there would be a similar practice in other languages. I know for sure that "English? is the last of name of some individuals I know. Further examples and descriptions would be appreciated. Thanks and regards, rajam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Mon Apr 11 18:06:35 2016 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 18:06:35 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ?English? is a common enough last name, though in neither case would I expect that the personal name reflects the language per se so much as the ethnic or regional identity (though these are closely linked anyway). For an unscientific sample of the incidence of the name in the U.S., see: http://www.whitepages.com/name/English Best, Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin ? From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of "Tieken, H.J.H." > Date: Monday, April 11, 2016 at 1:57 PM To: rajam >, INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... Dear Rajam, if you are referring to Johnny English, the movie by Rowan Atkinson, the name is a joke. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens rajam [rajam at earthlink.net] Verzonden: maandag 11 april 2016 19:21 Aan: INDOLOGY Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... Dear List Members, Recently, there was a webmail entry in a Tamil forum about including a language-name in one?s personal name. There are numerous personal names that include the word ?Tamil? in some form. So, the author of the enquiry was wondering if there would be a similar practice in other languages. I know for sure that "English? is the last of name of some individuals I know. Further examples and descriptions would be appreciated. Thanks and regards, rajam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk Mon Apr 11 18:19:21 2016 From: c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk (Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 18:19:21 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As Churchill long ago pointed out, there is nothing more typically English than the surname 'French'. Ram Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad Lancaster University iPhone On 11 Apr 2016, at 19:07, Lubin, Tim > wrote: ?English? is a common enough last name, though in neither case would I expect that the personal name reflects the language per se so much as the ethnic or regional identity (though these are closely linked anyway). For an unscientific sample of the incidence of the name in the U.S., see: http://www.whitepages.com/name/English Best, Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin ? From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of "Tieken, H.J.H." > Date: Monday, April 11, 2016 at 1:57 PM To: rajam >, INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... Dear Rajam, if you are referring to Johnny English, the movie by Rowan Atkinson, the name is a joke. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens rajam [rajam at earthlink.net] Verzonden: maandag 11 april 2016 19:21 Aan: INDOLOGY Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... Dear List Members, Recently, there was a webmail entry in a Tamil forum about including a language-name in one?s personal name. There are numerous personal names that include the word ?Tamil? in some form. So, the author of the enquiry was wondering if there would be a similar practice in other languages. I know for sure that "English? is the last of name of some individuals I know. Further examples and descriptions would be appreciated. Thanks and regards, rajam _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Mon Apr 11 18:33:11 2016 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 11:33:11 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Professor Tieken, Greetings from CA. Actually, one of the attorneys, who was involved with the visa trouble I had in the U.S., has the last name English. I have no idea what his last name implies. Regards, rajam > On Apr 11, 2016, at 10:57 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote: > > Dear Rajam, if you are referring to Johnny English, the movie by Rowan Atkinson, the name is a joke. Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info ] namens rajam [rajam at earthlink.net ] > Verzonden: maandag 11 april 2016 19:21 > Aan: INDOLOGY > Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... > > Dear List Members, > > Recently, there was a webmail entry in a Tamil forum about including a language-name in one?s personal name. > > There are numerous personal names that include the word ?Tamil? in some form. So, the author of the enquiry was wondering if there would be a similar practice in other languages. I know for sure that "English? is the last of name of some individuals I know. > > Further examples and descriptions would be appreciated. > > Thanks and regards, > rajam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon Apr 11 18:42:13 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 20:42:13 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Tim, Could you, please, upload your review to Academia.edu? A poorly-educated guy like me (no irony here!) needs further reading and learning. And appreciates any occasion for it. Thanks in advance, Artur PS. I try to organize my thoughts re the relics of the Buddha and amrita. Some simple parallels - and a sticky ground, contradictory concepts and interpretations. In need of new - lodestar-like - ideas. A. 2016-04-11 18:33 GMT+02:00 Lubin, Tim : > And now also: > > Timothy Lubin, ?Greater Magadha and the New Brahmanism: Recent > Publications by Johannes Bronkhorst,?* Religious Studies Review* 41.3 > (2015): 93?100. > > Best, > > TL > > > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of > "Michaels, Axel" > Date: Monday, April 11, 2016 at 12:26 PM > To: indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins > > More reviews on Johannes Bronkhorst?s thesis: Konrad Klaus in *Zeitschrift > der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft * 161 (2011): 216-221, Jason > Neelis in *Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society* 18.3 (2008): 381-3; John > Cort, *Religious Studies Review* 33.2 (2007): 171-172; K.T.S. Sarao in *Orientalische > Literatur-Zeitung* 103.2 (2008): 250-254; R?diger Schmitt in * Acta > Orientalia* 69 2008: 319-32, and Alexander Wynne in the *H-Buddhism* List > (July 2011). > > Best, xel Michaels > > Von: INDOLOGY im Auftrag von Artur > Karp > Datum: Monday 11 April 2016 at 12:30 > An: Roland Steiner > Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" > Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins > > > a bit to start a discussion? ;) > > Frankly? > > Quite frankly - I'd rather prefer following the discussion on the contents > of Prof. Bronkhorst's paper. > > Or - is there somewhere a trace of the Buddhologists' (Historians of > India, Historians of Indian Literature) reaction to its theses? > > Best, > > Artur Karp > > 2016-04-11 9:42 GMT+02:00 Roland Steiner : > >> In support of Prof. Silk's remarks I would like to point to the following >> short paper by Claudius Naumann: >> >> "Versiegende Quellen. Einige Anmerkungen ?ber den Sinn und Unsinn von >> Internet-Verweisen in wissenschaftlichen Arbeiten". In: Zeitschrift der >> deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 162.2 (2012), pp. 460-464. >> >> Best, >> Roland Steiner >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Mon Apr 11 19:11:54 2016 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 12:11:54 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2828F2B0-35B3-4345-B334-986C26E777B0@earthlink.net> I agree that the so-called language names in personal names won?t actually reflect the aspects of a language per se. But then there remains a question ? why did that particular reference was chosen to be included in one?s name in any culture? However, there remains another question for me ? how does an ethnic/regional identity arise? In the Tamil tradition, a Vaishnavite Saint Nammalvar (namm??v?r, ???????????) had many names including ?tami? m??a? ????? ?????." [Anyway, since I?m not a professional socio-anthro-historian my perspectives would be so boring to others!] Thanks and regards, rajam > On Apr 11, 2016, at 11:06 AM, Lubin, Tim wrote: > > ?English? is a common enough last name, though in neither case would I expect that the personal name reflects the language per se so much as the ethnic or regional identity (though these are closely linked anyway). For an unscientific sample of the incidence of the name in the U.S., see: > http://www.whitepages.com/name/English > > Best, > > Timothy Lubin > Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > > http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > > ? > > From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of "Tieken, H.J.H." > > Date: Monday, April 11, 2016 at 1:57 PM > To: rajam >, INDOLOGY > > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... > > Dear Rajam, if you are referring to Johnny English, the movie by Rowan Atkinson, the name is a joke. Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info ] namens rajam [rajam at earthlink.net ] > Verzonden: maandag 11 april 2016 19:21 > Aan: INDOLOGY > Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... > > Dear List Members, > > Recently, there was a webmail entry in a Tamil forum about including a language-name in one?s personal name. > > There are numerous personal names that include the word ?Tamil? in some form. So, the author of the enquiry was wondering if there would be a similar practice in other languages. I know for sure that "English? is the last of name of some individuals I know. > > Further examples and descriptions would be appreciated. > > Thanks and regards, > rajam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Mon Apr 11 19:18:18 2016 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 16 12:18:18 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5462CEE8-3955-4436-90EE-12F337744F82@earthlink.net> ///As Churchill long ago pointed out, there is nothing more typically English than the surname 'French?./// What does that mean, Sir? > On Apr 11, 2016, at 11:19 AM, Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi wrote: > > As Churchill long ago pointed out, there is nothing more typically English than the surname 'French'. > > Ram > > Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad > Lancaster University > > iPhone > > On 11 Apr 2016, at 19:07, Lubin, Tim > wrote: > >> ?English? is a common enough last name, though in neither case would I expect that the personal name reflects the language per se so much as the ethnic or regional identity (though these are closely linked anyway). For an unscientific sample of the incidence of the name in the U.S., see: >> http://www.whitepages.com/name/English >> >> Best, >> >> Timothy Lubin >> Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law >> Washington and Lee University >> Lexington, Virginia 24450 >> >> http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint >> http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin >> >> ? >> >> From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of "Tieken, H.J.H." > >> Date: Monday, April 11, 2016 at 1:57 PM >> To: rajam >, INDOLOGY > >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... >> >> Dear Rajam, if you are referring to Johnny English, the movie by Rowan Atkinson, the name is a joke. Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website: hermantieken.com >> Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info ] namens rajam [rajam at earthlink.net ] >> Verzonden: maandag 11 april 2016 19:21 >> Aan: INDOLOGY >> Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Language names and Personal names ... >> >> Dear List Members, >> >> Recently, there was a webmail entry in a Tamil forum about including a language-name in one?s personal name. >> >> There are numerous personal names that include the word ?Tamil? in some form. So, the author of the enquiry was wondering if there would be a similar practice in other languages. I know for sure that "English? is the last of name of some individuals I know. >> >> Further examples and descriptions would be appreciated. >> >> Thanks and regards, >> rajam >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.sweetman at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 21:29:12 2016 From: will.sweetman at gmail.com (Will Sweetman) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 16 09:29:12 +1200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Australian post-docs Message-ID: <570C1728.7060807@gmail.com> The Australia India Institute is thrilled to announce a new network of three-year post-doctoral positions across Australia - a globally significant step forward in understanding modern India. http://www.aii.unimelb.edu.au/new-generation-network-ngn-three-year-post-doctoral-positions From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 08:33:51 2016 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 16 10:33:51 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Artur, Geoffrey Samuel (*The Origins of Yoga and Tantra*. *Indic Religions to the Thirteenth Century*. Cambridge etc: Cambridge University Press, 2008) independently from Bronkhorst arrived at a historical narrative that is similar to the one told in ?Greater Magadha?. Moreover, the chapter on the early history of Karma and rebirth in South Asia by Wilhelm Halbfass (*Karma und Wiedergeburt im indischen Denken*. Kreuzlingen, M?nchen: Hugendubel, 2000, pp. 37-63), which draws upon a considerable amount of earlier primary sources and secondary literature, can be read as supporting important aspects of Bronkhorst?s ?Greater Magadha Hypothesis?. Best, Philipp 2016-04-11 20:42 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > Dear Tim, > > Could you, please, upload your review to Academia.edu? A poorly-educated > guy like me (no irony here!) needs further reading and learning. And > appreciates any occasion for it. > > Thanks in advance, > > Artur > > PS. I try to organize my thoughts re the relics of the Buddha and amrita. > Some simple parallels - and a sticky ground, contradictory concepts and > interpretations. In need of new - lodestar-like - ideas. > > A. > > 2016-04-11 18:33 GMT+02:00 Lubin, Tim : > >> And now also: >> >> Timothy Lubin, ?Greater Magadha and the New Brahmanism: Recent >> Publications by Johannes Bronkhorst,?* Religious Studies Review* 41.3 >> (2015): 93?100. >> >> Best, >> >> TL >> >> >> From: INDOLOGY on behalf of >> "Michaels, Axel" >> Date: Monday, April 11, 2016 at 12:26 PM >> To: indology >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins >> >> More reviews on Johannes Bronkhorst?s thesis: Konrad Klaus in *Zeitschrift >> der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft * 161 (2011): 216-221, Jason >> Neelis in *Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society* 18.3 (2008): 381-3; >> John Cort, *Religious Studies Review* 33.2 (2007): 171-172; K.T.S. Sarao >> in *Orientalische Literatur-Zeitung* 103.2 (2008): 250-254; R?diger >> Schmitt in * Acta Orientalia* 69 2008: 319-32, and Alexander Wynne in >> the *H-Buddhism* List (July 2011). >> >> Best, xel Michaels >> >> Von: INDOLOGY im Auftrag von Artur >> Karp >> Datum: Monday 11 April 2016 at 12:30 >> An: Roland Steiner >> Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" >> Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins >> >> > a bit to start a discussion? ;) >> >> Frankly? >> >> Quite frankly - I'd rather prefer following the discussion on the >> contents of Prof. Bronkhorst's paper. >> >> Or - is there somewhere a trace of the Buddhologists' (Historians of >> India, Historians of Indian Literature) reaction to its theses? >> >> Best, >> >> Artur Karp >> >> 2016-04-11 9:42 GMT+02:00 Roland Steiner : >> >>> In support of Prof. Silk's remarks I would like to point to the >>> following short paper by Claudius Naumann: >>> >>> "Versiegende Quellen. Einige Anmerkungen ?ber den Sinn und Unsinn von >>> Internet-Verweisen in wissenschaftlichen Arbeiten". In: Zeitschrift der >>> deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 162.2 (2012), pp. 460-464. >>> >>> Best, >>> Roland Steiner >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Dr. Philipp A. Maas Universit?tsassistent Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Wien ?sterreich univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Tue Apr 12 10:02:46 2016 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 16 12:02:46 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01D02910-A20E-4A9B-A129-14109710718D@uclouvain.be> To be complete, there is also this on-line review (by whom?) of Bronkhorst 2007, which refers also to Samuel's work: http://jayarava.blogspot.be/2012/07/revisiting-greater-magadha.html Le 12 avr. 2016 ? 10:33, Philipp Maas a ?crit : > Dear Artur, > > Geoffrey Samuel (The Origins of Yoga and Tantra. Indic Religions to the Thirteenth Century. Cambridge etc: Cambridge University Press, 2008) independently from Bronkhorst arrived at a historical narrative that is similar to the one told in ?Greater Magadha?. Moreover, the chapter on the early history of Karma and rebirth in South Asia by Wilhelm Halbfass (Karma und Wiedergeburt im indischen Denken. Kreuzlingen, M?nchen: Hugendubel, 2000, pp. 37-63), which draws upon a considerable amount of earlier primary sources and secondary literature, can be read as supporting important aspects of Bronkhorst?s ?Greater Magadha Hypothesis?. > > > Best, Philipp > > > 2016-04-11 20:42 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > Dear Tim, > > Could you, please, upload your review to Academia.edu? A poorly-educated guy like me (no irony here!) needs further reading and learning. And appreciates any occasion for it. > > Thanks in advance, > > Artur > > PS. I try to organize my thoughts re the relics of the Buddha and amrita. Some simple parallels - and a sticky ground, contradictory concepts and interpretations. In need of new - lodestar-like - ideas. > > A. > > 2016-04-11 18:33 GMT+02:00 Lubin, Tim : > And now also: > > Timothy Lubin, ?Greater Magadha and the New Brahmanism: Recent Publications by Johannes Bronkhorst,? Religious Studies Review 41.3 (2015): 93?100. > > Best, > > TL > > > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of "Michaels, Axel" > Date: Monday, April 11, 2016 at 12:26 PM > To: indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins > > More reviews on Johannes Bronkhorst?s thesis: Konrad Klaus in Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 161 (2011): 216-221, Jason Neelis in Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 18.3 (2008): 381-3; John Cort, Religious Studies Review 33.2 (2007): 171-172; K.T.S. Sarao in Orientalische Literatur-Zeitung 103.2 (2008): 250-254; R?diger Schmitt in Acta Orientalia 69 2008: 319-32, and Alexander Wynne in the H-Buddhism List (July 2011). > > Best, xel Michaels > > Von: INDOLOGY im Auftrag von Artur Karp > Datum: Monday 11 April 2016 at 12:30 > An: Roland Steiner > Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" > Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins > > > a bit to start a discussion? ;) > > Frankly? > > Quite frankly - I'd rather prefer following the discussion on the contents of Prof. Bronkhorst's paper. > > Or - is there somewhere a trace of the Buddhologists' (Historians of India, Historians of Indian Literature) reaction to its theses? > > Best, > > Artur Karp > > 2016-04-11 9:42 GMT+02:00 Roland Steiner : > In support of Prof. Silk's remarks I would like to point to the following short paper by Claudius Naumann: > > "Versiegende Quellen. Einige Anmerkungen ?ber den Sinn und Unsinn von Internet-Verweisen in wissenschaftlichen Arbeiten". In: Zeitschrift der deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 162.2 (2012), pp. 460-464. > > Best, > Roland Steiner > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Dr. Philipp A. Maas > Universit?tsassistent > Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde > Universit?t Wien > Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 > A-1090 Wien > ?sterreich > univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elisa.freschi at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 10:07:55 2016 From: elisa.freschi at gmail.com (elisa freschi) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 16 12:07:55 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: <01D02910-A20E-4A9B-A129-14109710718D@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: <683C0A6C-B3C2-4CC2-978E-6CCD2D263BE5@gmail.com> Cher Christophe, dear all, the review you mention is by Jayarava Attwood. Best, elisa Dr. Elisa Freschi Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia Austrian Academy of Sciences Apostelgasse 23 1030 Vienna Austria Phone +43 1 51581 6433 Fax +43 1 51581 6410 http://elisafreschi.com http://oeaw.academia.edu/elisafreschi On 12/apr/2016, at 12:02, Christophe Vielle wrote: > To be complete, there is also this on-line review (by whom?) of Bronkhorst 2007, which refers also to Samuel's work: > http://jayarava.blogspot.be/2012/07/revisiting-greater-magadha.html > > Le 12 avr. 2016 ? 10:33, Philipp Maas a ?crit : > >> Dear Artur, >> >> Geoffrey Samuel (The Origins of Yoga and Tantra. Indic Religions to the Thirteenth Century. Cambridge etc: Cambridge University Press, 2008) independently from Bronkhorst arrived at a historical narrative that is similar to the one told in ?Greater Magadha?. Moreover, the chapter on the early history of Karma and rebirth in South Asia by Wilhelm Halbfass (Karma und Wiedergeburt im indischen Denken. Kreuzlingen, M?nchen: Hugendubel, 2000, pp. 37-63), which draws upon a considerable amount of earlier primary sources and secondary literature, can be read as supporting important aspects of Bronkhorst?s ?Greater Magadha Hypothesis?. >> >> >> Best, Philipp >> >> >> 2016-04-11 20:42 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : >> Dear Tim, >> >> Could you, please, upload your review to Academia.edu? A poorly-educated guy like me (no irony here!) needs further reading and learning. And appreciates any occasion for it. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Artur >> >> PS. I try to organize my thoughts re the relics of the Buddha and amrita. Some simple parallels - and a sticky ground, contradictory concepts and interpretations. In need of new - lodestar-like - ideas. >> >> A. >> >> 2016-04-11 18:33 GMT+02:00 Lubin, Tim : >> And now also: >> >> Timothy Lubin, ?Greater Magadha and the New Brahmanism: Recent Publications by Johannes Bronkhorst,? Religious Studies Review 41.3 (2015): 93?100. >> >> Best, >> >> TL >> >> >> From: INDOLOGY on behalf of "Michaels, Axel" >> Date: Monday, April 11, 2016 at 12:26 PM >> To: indology >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins >> >> More reviews on Johannes Bronkhorst?s thesis: Konrad Klaus in Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 161 (2011): 216-221, Jason Neelis in Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 18.3 (2008): 381-3; John Cort, Religious Studies Review 33.2 (2007): 171-172; K.T.S. Sarao in Orientalische Literatur-Zeitung 103.2 (2008): 250-254; R?diger Schmitt in Acta Orientalia 69 2008: 319-32, and Alexander Wynne in the H-Buddhism List (July 2011). >> >> Best, xel Michaels >> >> Von: INDOLOGY im Auftrag von Artur Karp >> Datum: Monday 11 April 2016 at 12:30 >> An: Roland Steiner >> Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" >> Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins >> >> > a bit to start a discussion? ;) >> >> Frankly? >> >> Quite frankly - I'd rather prefer following the discussion on the contents of Prof. Bronkhorst's paper. >> >> Or - is there somewhere a trace of the Buddhologists' (Historians of India, Historians of Indian Literature) reaction to its theses? >> >> Best, >> >> Artur Karp >> >> 2016-04-11 9:42 GMT+02:00 Roland Steiner : >> In support of Prof. Silk's remarks I would like to point to the following short paper by Claudius Naumann: >> >> "Versiegende Quellen. Einige Anmerkungen ?ber den Sinn und Unsinn von Internet-Verweisen in wissenschaftlichen Arbeiten". In: Zeitschrift der deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 162.2 (2012), pp. 460-464. >> >> Best, >> Roland Steiner >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> -- >> Dr. Philipp A. Maas >> Universit?tsassistent >> Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde >> Universit?t Wien >> Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 >> A-1090 Wien >> ?sterreich >> univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 11:27:22 2016 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 16 13:27:22 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: <01D02910-A20E-4A9B-A129-14109710718D@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: Thank you, Cristophe, for drawing our attention to Jayaratha?s review in his blog entry, which is definitely worth reading. The entry does, however, not entirely do justice to Bronkhorst?s position, when it says that ?? one has to accept this new chronology, which places the Upani?ads *after *Buddhism rather than before it, ?? (J?s emphasis). Bronkhorst?s position is in fact a weaker one. He concludes that ?the notion of karmic retribution in the earliest relevant Upani?adic (i.e. Vedic) passages has been added to material that is devoid of it? (GM p. 122). If I understand this correctly, Bronkhorst takes the older Upani?ads in their present form as the result of an redactorial process, in which the (sporadic) references to karma-and-rebirth theories were added to textual passages exclusively dealing with rebirth (but not with karmic retribution as its cause). I wonder whether critical editions of the older and middle Upani?ads could not provide a more solid basis for research in the early religious history of South Asia than the presently available editions do. Best wishes, Philipp 2016-04-12 12:02 GMT+02:00 Christophe Vielle : > To be complete, there is also this on-line review (by whom?) of Bronkhorst > 2007, which refers also to Samuel's work: > http://jayarava.blogspot.be/2012/07/revisiting-greater-magadha.html > > Le 12 avr. 2016 ? 10:33, Philipp Maas a ?crit : > > Dear Artur, > > Geoffrey Samuel (*The Origins of Yoga and Tantra*. *Indic Religions to > the Thirteenth Century*. Cambridge etc: Cambridge University Press, 2008) > independently from Bronkhorst arrived at a historical narrative that is > similar to the one told in ?Greater Magadha?. Moreover, the chapter on the > early history of Karma and rebirth in South Asia by Wilhelm Halbfass (*Karma > und Wiedergeburt im indischen Denken*. Kreuzlingen, M?nchen: Hugendubel, > 2000, pp. 37-63), which draws upon a considerable amount of earlier primary > sources and secondary literature, can be read as supporting important > aspects of Bronkhorst?s ?Greater Magadha Hypothesis?. > > > Best, Philipp > > 2016-04-11 20:42 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > >> Dear Tim, >> >> Could you, please, upload your review to Academia.edu? A poorly-educated >> guy like me (no irony here!) needs further reading and learning. And >> appreciates any occasion for it. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Artur >> >> PS. I try to organize my thoughts re the relics of the Buddha and amrita. >> Some simple parallels - and a sticky ground, contradictory concepts and >> interpretations. In need of new - lodestar-like - ideas. >> >> A. >> >> 2016-04-11 18:33 GMT+02:00 Lubin, Tim : >> >>> And now also: >>> >>> Timothy Lubin, ?Greater Magadha and the New Brahmanism: Recent >>> Publications by Johannes Bronkhorst,?* Religious Studies Review* 41.3 >>> (2015): 93?100. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> TL >>> >>> >>> From: INDOLOGY on behalf of >>> "Michaels, Axel" >>> Date: Monday, April 11, 2016 at 12:26 PM >>> To: indology >>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins >>> >>> More reviews on Johannes Bronkhorst?s thesis: Konrad Klaus in *Zeitschrift >>> der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft * 161 (2011): 216-221, >>> Jason Neelis in *Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society* 18.3 (2008): >>> 381-3; John Cort, *Religious Studies Review* 33.2 (2007): 171-172; >>> K.T.S. Sarao in *Orientalische Literatur-Zeitung* 103.2 (2008): >>> 250-254; R?diger Schmitt in * Acta Orientalia* 69 2008: 319-32, and >>> Alexander Wynne in the *H-Buddhism* List (July 2011). >>> >>> Best, xel Michaels >>> >>> Von: INDOLOGY im Auftrag von >>> Artur Karp >>> Datum: Monday 11 April 2016 at 12:30 >>> An: Roland Steiner >>> Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" >>> Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins >>> >>> > a bit to start a discussion? ;) >>> >>> Frankly? >>> >>> Quite frankly - I'd rather prefer following the discussion on the >>> contents of Prof. Bronkhorst's paper. >>> >>> Or - is there somewhere a trace of the Buddhologists' (Historians of >>> India, Historians of Indian Literature) reaction to its theses? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Artur Karp >>> >>> 2016-04-11 9:42 GMT+02:00 Roland Steiner : >>> >>>> In support of Prof. Silk's remarks I would like to point to the >>>> following short paper by Claudius Naumann: >>>> >>>> "Versiegende Quellen. Einige Anmerkungen ?ber den Sinn und Unsinn von >>>> Internet-Verweisen in wissenschaftlichen Arbeiten". In: Zeitschrift der >>>> deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 162.2 (2012), pp. 460-464. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Roland Steiner >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Dr. Philipp A. Maas > Universit?tsassistent > Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde > Universit?t Wien > Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 > A-1090 Wien > ?sterreich > univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Dr. Philipp A. Maas Universit?tsassistent Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Wien ?sterreich univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Tue Apr 12 12:25:39 2016 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 16 07:25:39 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] resource Message-ID: <90038F6A-16D9-4BBA-BD70-A29271C8DA92@ivs.edu> There is a fairly new Vaishnava digital manuscript library in Kolkata: http://brcindia.com From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Tue Apr 12 13:50:22 2016 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 16 15:50:22 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: <8ADAF521-BCAA-41CA-B919-67D897DD3D0A@oeaw.ac.at> Message-ID: <2BDBA741-8114-4582-9567-BFB9D27458AB@uclouvain.be> This hypothesis about the B?rUp is criticized by Wynne in his review (http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=31537 ) p. 2 , with a further reference to the pages of an article in the JRAS 2010. About this unprovable textual stratification, I join my answer to Maas : Thank you for this note dear Philipp, you are right on the too hasty conclusion of J on the underlined point. I remain on my side skeptical about the validity of any higher criticism, here which would be applied to the early Upanishads (cf. the Ur-BhG of Garbe which is not the one of Jezic etc.). As you showed with Halbfass, and as it could be shown by relying on La Vall?e Poussin (ex. "Le dogme et la philosophie du bouddhisme" 1930, p. 2 sv.*, "L'Inde jusque vers 300" 1936, pp. 277 sq.**) and others, the "common view" challenged by Bronkhorst is obviously not the one of the majority of scholars, who, generally, remain cautious and nuanced [?French "nuanc?"] on these complex issues??. * "Ne furent jamais br?hmanique ou ? orthodoxes ?, le culte des reliques, certaines formes d'asc?tisme ; n'est pas br?hmanique d'origine la croyance ? la transmigration (...) Vers la fin du sixi?me si?cle avant notre ?re, au c?ur de l'Inde gang?tique, entre B?nar?s et Patna, dans le Magadha, ? province ethniquement tr?s m?l?e, mais qui parlait un dialecte ?ryen et qui, depuis longtemps, ?tait soumise ? l'influence br?hmanique, ? une vie spirituelle intense s'?tait d?velopp?e en dehors des cadres br?hmaniques" (...) C'est ? cette ?poque, et dans ce Magadha, que furent cr??s parmi beaucoup d'autres, ? c?t? des Jatilas dont les attaches br?hmaniques paraissent ?troites, et des ?jivikas, deux ordres qui survivent, le Ja?nisme et le Bouddhisme". ** Challenging the "Y?jnavalkya [B?Up]" Brahmanical/Upanishadic theory of the origin of karma, rebirth and sams?ra (cf. Oldenberg etc.), LVP says : "th?orie peu vraisemblable (?) On peut, ce me semble, pr?senter des consid?rations assez fortes et montrer que la doctrine de la transmigration... n'est pas br?hmanique. Les Upanishads ont-elles emprunt?, en l'accomodant tant bien que mal ? leur vues propres, la croyance ? la transmigration tr?s r?pandue autour d'eux? C'est assez vraisemblable. Mais il est, pour nous, presque ?vident que la croyance populaire ? la transmigration n'est pas sortie des c?nacles o? s'?laboraient les vues confuses et contradictoires des Upanishads" (...)? "La m?me question se pose pour l'histoire de l'asc?tisme. (...) Nous pensons que, avant les Upanishads, l'asc?tisme indien florissait en de nombreuses sectes non br?hmaniques et avait ?labor? diverses r?gles de vie ? religieuse ? dont le br?hmanisme tira parti. (...) De ce m?me courant [asc?tique et renon?ant, pratiquant des formes du yoga] est sorti le Bouddhisme : dispens?s, par leur profession m?me, du sacrifice; ?trangers aux ?coles sacerdotales et ? leurs traditions archa?santes ; constituant des ?coles et nouant des traditions rivales, les asc?tes (?ramanas) ne sont ? aucun titre des h?r?tiques ou des schismatiques du Br?hmanisme." ? In the same time, "Nulle part, m?me dans les livres bouddhiques o? elle fut savamment stylis?e, la loi de la r?tribution des actes ne se pr?sente avec une absolue rigueur" (cf. recently J.-M. Verpoorten, Acte r?tributif, Renaissance et Transmigration dans le bouddhisme des origines, Louvain-la-Neuve : Peeters, Publications de l'Institut orientaliste de Louvain 60, 2012). ?? Cf. the last page of the review of B by Wynne. Le 12 avr. 2016 ? 15:27, Ferrante, Marco a ?crit : > Dear everyone, > > just to corroborate the last remark by Philipp Maas, Bronkhorst not only holds that just the sections of the Upani?ads concerned with the immutable nature of the self and with karmic retributions show influence of the ?rama?a milieu (and not the Upani?ads tout court!), but he dedicates a section of GM to analyze a specific textual case, the Y?j?avalkyak???a of the B?r.Up. (adhy?ya 3 and 4). That?s the section in which Y?j?avalkya imparts to the king Janaka a secret teaching about karma and rebirth that is 'unknown to Brahmins' and that is much superior to their own ones. Bronkhorst claims that this entire section of the B?r Up. was composed independently and later joined to the first two adhy?yas. The remaining two chapters (5 and 6) were the last to be appended to form the text we know today. > An investigation of the textual stratification of the older Upani?ads, similar to the one Bronkhorst himself embarked upon, would certainly be a good test of the theory of the two cultures. A theory which is nonetheless supported by the research of other authors: Geoffrey Samuel ? as P. Maas already suggested ? who cites also Thomas Hopkins as a source of inspiration. > > With best regards, > > > Marco > > > > Dr. Marco Ferrante > Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia. > Austrian Academy of Sciences > Apostelgasse 23, 1030 Vienna > Austria > > https://oeaw.academia.edu/MarcoFerrante > http://www.ikga.oeaw.ac.at/Mitarbeiter/Ferrante > > > > >> Il giorno 12 apr 2016, alle ore 13:27, Philipp Maas ha scritto: >> >> Thank you, Cristophe, for drawing our attention to Jayaratha?s review in his blog entry, which is definitely worth reading. The entry does, however, not entirely do justice to Bronkhorst?s position, when it says that ?? one has to accept this new chronology, which places the Upani?ads after Buddhism rather than before it, ?? (J?s emphasis). Bronkhorst?s position is in fact a weaker one. He concludes that ?the notion of karmic retribution in the earliest relevant Upani?adic (i.e. Vedic) passages has been added to material that is devoid of it? (GM p. 122). If I understand this correctly, Bronkhorst takes the older Upani?ads in their present form as the result of an redactorial process, in which the (sporadic) references to karma-and-rebirth theories were added to textual passages exclusively dealing with rebirth (but not with karmic retribution as its cause). >> >> >> I wonder whether critical editions of the older and middle Upani?ads could not provide a more solid basis for research in the early religious history of South Asia than the presently available editions do. >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> Philipp >> >> >> 2016-04-12 12:02 GMT+02:00 Christophe Vielle : >> To be complete, there is also this on-line review (by whom?) of Bronkhorst 2007, which refers also to Samuel's work: >> http://jayarava.blogspot.be/2012/07/revisiting-greater-magadha.html >> >> Le 12 avr. 2016 ? 10:33, Philipp Maas a ?crit : >> >>> Dear Artur, >>> >>> Geoffrey Samuel (The Origins of Yoga and Tantra. Indic Religions to the Thirteenth Century. Cambridge etc: Cambridge University Press, 2008) independently from Bronkhorst arrived at a historical narrative that is similar to the one told in ?Greater Magadha?. Moreover, the chapter on the early history of Karma and rebirth in South Asia by Wilhelm Halbfass (Karma und Wiedergeburt im indischen Denken. Kreuzlingen, M?nchen: Hugendubel, 2000, pp. 37-63), which draws upon a considerable amount of earlier primary sources and secondary literature, can be read as supporting important aspects of Bronkhorst?s ?Greater Magadha Hypothesis?. >>> >>> >>> Best, Philipp >>> >>> >>> 2016-04-11 20:42 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : >>> Dear Tim, >>> >>> Could you, please, upload your review to Academia.edu? A poorly-educated guy like me (no irony here!) needs further reading and learning. And appreciates any occasion for it. >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> >>> Artur >>> >>> PS. I try to organize my thoughts re the relics of the Buddha and amrita. Some simple parallels - and a sticky ground, contradictory concepts and interpretations. In need of new - lodestar-like - ideas. >>> >>> A. >>> >>> 2016-04-11 18:33 GMT+02:00 Lubin, Tim : >>> And now also: >>> >>> Timothy Lubin, ?Greater Magadha and the New Brahmanism: Recent Publications by Johannes Bronkhorst,? Religious Studies Review 41.3 (2015): 93?100. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> TL >>> >>> >>> From: INDOLOGY on behalf of "Michaels, Axel" >>> Date: Monday, April 11, 2016 at 12:26 PM >>> To: indology >>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins >>> >>> More reviews on Johannes Bronkhorst?s thesis: Konrad Klaus in Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 161 (2011): 216-221, Jason Neelis in Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 18.3 (2008): 381-3; John Cort, Religious Studies Review 33.2 (2007): 171-172; K.T.S. Sarao in Orientalische Literatur-Zeitung 103.2 (2008): 250-254; R?diger Schmitt in Acta Orientalia 69 2008: 319-32, and Alexander Wynne in the H-Buddhism List (July 2011). >>> >>> Best, xel Michaels >>> >>> Von: INDOLOGY im Auftrag von Artur Karp >>> Datum: Monday 11 April 2016 at 12:30 >>> An: Roland Steiner >>> Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" >>> Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins >>> >>> > a bit to start a discussion? ;) >>> >>> Frankly? >>> >>> Quite frankly - I'd rather prefer following the discussion on the contents of Prof. Bronkhorst's paper. >>> >>> Or - is there somewhere a trace of the Buddhologists' (Historians of India, Historians of Indian Literature) reaction to its theses? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Artur Karp >>> >>> 2016-04-11 9:42 GMT+02:00 Roland Steiner : >>> In support of Prof. Silk's remarks I would like to point to the following short paper by Claudius Naumann: >>> >>> "Versiegende Quellen. Einige Anmerkungen ?ber den Sinn und Unsinn von Internet-Verweisen in wissenschaftlichen Arbeiten". In: Zeitschrift der deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 162.2 (2012), pp. 460-464. >>> >>> Best, >>> Roland Steiner >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr. Philipp A. Maas >>> Universit?tsassistent >>> Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde >>> Universit?t Wien >>> Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 >>> A-1090 Wien >>> ?sterreich >>> univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> ??????????????????? >> Christophe Vielle >> Louvain-la-Neuve >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> -- >> Dr. Philipp A. Maas >> Universit?tsassistent >> Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde >> Universit?t Wien >> Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 >> A-1090 Wien >> ?sterreich >> univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Apr 12 14:10:47 2016 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 16 10:10:47 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] DLI Multiple Listings Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, When one sees multiple listings of one and the same publication on the DLI website, are they different scans of the same book from different sources, or simply multiple listings of one and the same scan? What has been people's experience? I am asking because some of the scans that I downloaded are pretty bad. Is it worth checking other listings of the same book? Madhav Deshpande -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Tue Apr 12 14:21:43 2016 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 16 16:21:43 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] DLI Multiple Listings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20160412162143.eefa7ca4d820634e3b36707c@ff.cuni.cz> Dear Madhav, my experince is that mostly (I would guess in 80 %) it is the same scan. But not always, so it is definitely worth checking all listings. Lubomir On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 10:10:47 -0400 Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > When one sees multiple listings of one and the same publication on the DLI > website, are they different scans of the same book from different sources, > or simply multiple listings of one and the same scan? What has been > people's experience? I am asking because some of the scans that I > downloaded are pretty bad. Is it worth checking other listings of the same > book? > > Madhav Deshpande > > -- > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics > Department of Asian Languages and Cultures > 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 > The University of Michigan > Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Tue Apr 12 14:23:13 2016 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 16 14:23:13 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] DLI Multiple Listings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047B77CC5@xm-mbx-04-prod> Dear Madhav, I don't think there is one rule; sometimes I have found different scans of the same work, so if one is bad it may be worthwhile to try the others. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 14:27:36 2016 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 16 08:27:36 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] DLI Multiple Listings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Madhav, It seems that they are sometimes the same, and sometimes different. For example, H. D. Velankar?s translation of ma??ala 7 of the ?gveda that I checked recently had three scans at DLI. Two were the same scan, both pretty bad, and one was a different scan, reasonably good quality. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 8:10 AM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > When one sees multiple listings of one and the same publication on the DLI > website, are they different scans of the same book from different sources, > or simply multiple listings of one and the same scan? What has been > people's experience? I am asking because some of the scans that I > downloaded are pretty bad. Is it worth checking other listings of the same > book? > > Madhav Deshpande > > -- > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics > Department of Asian Languages and Cultures > 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 > The University of Michigan > Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 05:48:31 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 16 23:48:31 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Geoffrey depended on the account of Tom Hopkins, which is independent of Bronkhorst's arguments, and depends more on archaeological data. It is very unfortunate that Prof. Hopkins has not published his interesting materials. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk* Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity Department of History and Classics University of Alberta, Canada On 12 April 2016 at 02:33, Philipp Maas wrote: > Dear Artur, > > Geoffrey Samuel (*The Origins of Yoga and Tantra*. *Indic Religions to > the Thirteenth Century*. Cambridge etc: Cambridge University Press, 2008) > independently from Bronkhorst arrived at a historical narrative that is > similar to the one told in ?Greater Magadha?. Moreover, the chapter on the > early history of Karma and rebirth in South Asia by Wilhelm Halbfass (*Karma > und Wiedergeburt im indischen Denken*. Kreuzlingen, M?nchen: Hugendubel, > 2000, pp. 37-63), which draws upon a considerable amount of earlier primary > sources and secondary literature, can be read as supporting important > aspects of Bronkhorst?s ?Greater Magadha Hypothesis?. > > > > Best, Philipp > > 2016-04-11 20:42 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > >> Dear Tim, >> >> Could you, please, upload your review to Academia.edu? A poorly-educated >> guy like me (no irony here!) needs further reading and learning. And >> appreciates any occasion for it. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Artur >> >> PS. I try to organize my thoughts re the relics of the Buddha and amrita. >> Some simple parallels - and a sticky ground, contradictory concepts and >> interpretations. In need of new - lodestar-like - ideas. >> >> A. >> >> 2016-04-11 18:33 GMT+02:00 Lubin, Tim : >> >>> And now also: >>> >>> Timothy Lubin, ?Greater Magadha and the New Brahmanism: Recent >>> Publications by Johannes Bronkhorst,?* Religious Studies Review* 41.3 >>> (2015): 93?100. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> TL >>> >>> >>> From: INDOLOGY on behalf of >>> "Michaels, Axel" >>> Date: Monday, April 11, 2016 at 12:26 PM >>> To: indology >>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins >>> >>> More reviews on Johannes Bronkhorst?s thesis: Konrad Klaus in *Zeitschrift >>> der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft * 161 (2011): 216-221, >>> Jason Neelis in *Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society* 18.3 (2008): >>> 381-3; John Cort, *Religious Studies Review* 33.2 (2007): 171-172; >>> K.T.S. Sarao in *Orientalische Literatur-Zeitung* 103.2 (2008): >>> 250-254; R?diger Schmitt in * Acta Orientalia* 69 2008: 319-32, and >>> Alexander Wynne in the *H-Buddhism* List (July 2011). >>> >>> Best, xel Michaels >>> >>> Von: INDOLOGY im Auftrag von >>> Artur Karp >>> Datum: Monday 11 April 2016 at 12:30 >>> An: Roland Steiner >>> Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" >>> Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins >>> >>> > a bit to start a discussion? ;) >>> >>> Frankly? >>> >>> Quite frankly - I'd rather prefer following the discussion on the >>> contents of Prof. Bronkhorst's paper. >>> >>> Or - is there somewhere a trace of the Buddhologists' (Historians of >>> India, Historians of Indian Literature) reaction to its theses? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Artur Karp >>> >>> 2016-04-11 9:42 GMT+02:00 Roland Steiner : >>> >>>> In support of Prof. Silk's remarks I would like to point to the >>>> following short paper by Claudius Naumann: >>>> >>>> "Versiegende Quellen. Einige Anmerkungen ?ber den Sinn und Unsinn von >>>> Internet-Verweisen in wissenschaftlichen Arbeiten". In: Zeitschrift der >>>> deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 162.2 (2012), pp. 460-464. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Roland Steiner >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Dr. Philipp A. Maas > Universit?tsassistent > Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde > Universit?t Wien > Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 > A-1090 Wien > ?sterreich > univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 06:00:45 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 16 00:00:45 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You're right, Jonathan, I was intending to be a bit provocative. But I do also think there's a genuine issue at stake. Things are very much in flux at present, and this will surely continue for a decade or two at least. Scholars very much need DOIs as you say, and permanent URLs (PURL ) or some similar mechanism. And although it may seem dangerously ephemeral to refer to a PDF sitting somewhere on the web, the WayBackMachine at Archive.org offers possibility of finding things that have otherwise moved or vanished, long after the fact. Here's my home page as it was in January 1999, for example. A nice bit of nostalgia. And Academia.edu is being very pro-actively archived at the WayBackMachine. Sometimes there are four snapshots in a single day. Musings. Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ersand at hum.ku.dk Wed Apr 13 09:43:24 2016 From: ersand at hum.ku.dk (Erik Reenberg Sand) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 16 09:43:24 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Problems with DLI-downloader Message-ID: <20C9C90FBA5B324CB8E52340A5BD38C53E9CD8F6@P1KITMBX07WC04.unicph.domain> Dear colleagues, For the last couple of days I have been having problems downloading from DLI via DLI v.5.9. Whatever title I try to download it comes out saying "Not found". Does anybody have an explanation? Regards Erik Erik Reenberg Sand Lektor Institut for Tv?rkulturelle og Regionale Studier Karen Blixens Vej 4 Bygning 10.4.15 DK-2630 K?benhavn S +45 51 30 26 99 ersand at hum.ku.dk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Wed Apr 13 11:28:55 2016 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 16 11:28:55 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Problems with DLI-downloader Message-ID: Dear Erik, If you are talking about the downloader, which has never worked for me anyway, I don?t know. DLI seems to be in the process of shifting over from the old on-line page-by-page reader to offering PDFs. There are multiple portals, and I have found that files from http://www.dli.ernet.in from come in at a trickle or are ?not found," but this portal works fine at the moment: http://dli.serc.iisc.ernet.in Best, TL Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin ? From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Erik Reenberg Sand > Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 at 5:43 AM To: "indology at list.indology.info" > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Problems with DLI-downloader Dear colleagues, For the last couple of days I have been having problems downloading from DLI via DLI v.5.9. Whatever title I try to download it comes out saying ?Not found?. Does anybody have an explanation? Regards Erik Erik Reenberg Sand Lektor Institut for Tv?rkulturelle og Regionale Studier Karen Blixens Vej 4 Bygning 10.4.15 DK-2630 K?benhavn S +45 51 30 26 99 ersand at hum.ku.dk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Johannes.Bronkhorst at unil.ch Wed Apr 13 11:35:49 2016 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at unil.ch (Johannes Bronkhorst) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 16 11:35:49 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication Message-ID: Dear friends and colleages, My latest book has come out: How the Brahmins Won: From Alexander to the Guptas. Brill, 2016. ISBN: 9789004315198. http://www.brill.com/products/book/how-brahmins-won Johannes Bronkhorst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Wed Apr 13 11:51:19 2016 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 16 13:51:19 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Problems with DLI-downloader In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45989ECD-FD12-4FF8-9C5A-7D269B9EB9B7@uclouvain.be> Also : http://www.dli.ernet.in Problems with http://www.new1.dli.ernet.in http://www.dli.gov.in Le 13 avr. 2016 ? 13:28, Lubin, Tim a ?crit : > Dear Erik, > > If you are talking about the downloader, which has never worked for me anyway, I don?t know. DLI seems to be in the process of shifting over from the old on-line page-by-page reader to offering PDFs. There are multiple portals, and I have found that files from http://www.dli.ernet.in from come in at a trickle or are ?not found," but this portal works fine at the moment: > http://dli.serc.iisc.ernet.in > > Best, > TL > > Timothy Lubin > Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > > http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > > ? > > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Erik Reenberg Sand > Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 at 5:43 AM > To: "indology at list.indology.info" > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Problems with DLI-downloader > > Dear colleagues, > > For the last couple of days I have been having problems downloading from DLI via DLI v.5.9. Whatever title I try to download it comes out saying ?Not found?. Does anybody have an explanation? > > Regards > > Erik > > > > > Erik Reenberg Sand > Lektor > Institut for Tv?rkulturelle og Regionale Studier > Karen Blixens Vej 4 > Bygning 10.4.15 > DK-2630 K?benhavn S > +45 51 30 26 99 > ersand at hum.ku.dk > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ersand at hum.ku.dk Wed Apr 13 12:03:58 2016 From: ersand at hum.ku.dk (Erik Reenberg Sand) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 16 12:03:58 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Problems with DLI-downloader In-Reply-To: <45989ECD-FD12-4FF8-9C5A-7D269B9EB9B7@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: <20C9C90FBA5B324CB8E52340A5BD38C53E9CD970@P1KITMBX07WC04.unicph.domain> Dear all, Many thanks to Tim and Christophe for guiding me to that page. Perhaps, in the future I shall use this instead, although the searching facility is more overwhelming and gives you many more entries. But this is, of course, a luxury problem. Best Erik Fra: Christophe Vielle [mailto:christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be] Sendt: 13. april 2016 13:51 Til: Lubin, Tim Cc: Erik Reenberg Sand; indology at list.indology.info Emne: Re: [INDOLOGY] Problems with DLI-downloader Also : http://www.dli.ernet.in Problems with http://www.new1.dli.ernet.in http://www.dli.gov.in Le 13 avr. 2016 ? 13:28, Lubin, Tim > a ?crit : Dear Erik, If you are talking about the downloader, which has never worked for me anyway, I don?t know. DLI seems to be in the process of shifting over from the old on-line page-by-page reader to offering PDFs. There are multiple portals, and I have found that files from http://www.dli.ernet.in from come in at a trickle or are ?not found," but this portal works fine at the moment: http://dli.serc.iisc.ernet.in Best, TL Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin ? From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Erik Reenberg Sand > Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 at 5:43 AM To: "indology at list.indology.info" > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Problems with DLI-downloader Dear colleagues, For the last couple of days I have been having problems downloading from DLI via DLI v.5.9. Whatever title I try to download it comes out saying ?Not found?. Does anybody have an explanation? Regards Erik Erik Reenberg Sand Lektor Institut for Tv?rkulturelle og Regionale Studier Karen Blixens Vej 4 Bygning 10.4.15 DK-2630 K?benhavn S +45 51 30 26 99 ersand at hum.ku.dk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.zapart at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 16:53:55 2016 From: j.zapart at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Jaros=C5=82aw_Zapart?=) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 16 18:53:55 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_=C5=9Aiv_Day=C4=81l_Singh's_"S=C4=81r_Bacan"_-_a_request?= Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, For a while now I?ve been trying to locate a complete edition of Hindi verses composed by the founder of Radhasoami faith, but to no avail. I have a volume of selected?Hindi verses form the S?r Bacan, and a full English translation, but not the complete Hindi collection. I would be very grateful if someone could help me in finding a physical or digital copy of this compilation. With kind regards, Jaros?aw Zapart ---- dr Jaros?aw Zapart Centre for Comparative Studies of Civilizations Jagiellonian University Krak?w, Poland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hermantull at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 17:44:26 2016 From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 16 13:44:26 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Misunderstood origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just a brief follow-up regarding Bronkhorst's work, since I am one of the individuals whose work Bronkhorst cites as significantly misunderstanding the import of the "early" Upanisadic formulations of karma (see, The Vedic Origins of Karma, 1989, a revision of my dissertation). Bronkhorst's work views the Indian texts as well as the assorted strands of Buddhism, Jainism, and Vedic thought with a deep chronological (a term that occurs frequently in the work) bias. Personally, I find many of his arguments compelling, and I consider his work ground-breaking (this is a notoriously difficult realm to penetrate; Witzel, too, has made significant strides here). My argument, however, was made on a quite different basis. Following the type of work that I (as a graduate student) believed Heesterman was engaged in, I sought out conceptual (not chronological) origins; that is, I wanted to see what Vedic concepts could be "unearthed" within the representation of karma in the Upanishads; in other words, to get a sense of the Vedic framework--which is stated in fairly clear terms throughout the Satapatha Brahmana in particular (as discussed in my work)--on which karma hangs in the Upanishads (in this, there are some implicit chronological assumptions of "early and late"). As I view the project now, I recall some Durkheim-ian influences as I considered the Upanishads, and their doctrines, as having to be meaningful within a "collective consciousness" of Indian thought that encompassed the Vedic period broadly (again, not as a matter of chronology, but as a matter of discourse). with regards, Herman Tull On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 7:09 AM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > I am not sure what you specifically wish to discuss, but I dare to attach > here something which I wrote on Bronkhorst's book which, I believe, begins > to engage some of his ideas... > > Jonathan > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > >> > a bit to start a discussion? ;) >> >> Frankly? >> >> Quite frankly - I'd rather prefer following the discussion on the >> contents of Prof. Bronkhorst's paper. >> >> Or - is there somewhere a trace of the Buddhologists' (Historians of >> India, Historians of Indian Literature) reaction to its theses? >> >> Best, >> >> Artur Karp >> >> 2016-04-11 9:42 GMT+02:00 Roland Steiner : >> >>> In support of Prof. Silk's remarks I would like to point to the >>> following short paper by Claudius Naumann: >>> >>> "Versiegende Quellen. Einige Anmerkungen ?ber den Sinn und Unsinn von >>> Internet-Verweisen in wissenschaftlichen Arbeiten". In: Zeitschrift der >>> deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 162.2 (2012), pp. 460-464. >>> >>> Best, >>> Roland Steiner >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tylerwwilliams at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 22:40:56 2016 From: tylerwwilliams at gmail.com (Tyler Williams) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 16 17:40:56 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09=C5=9Aiv_Day=C4=81l_Singh's_"S=C4=81r_Bacan"_-_a_request?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jaros?aw, It seems that the University of Chicago has an edition (Allahabad, Matabai Praya?ga Presa, 1884): *Pothi? sa?ra bacana Ra?dha?sva?mi? : nazama ya?ni? chanda mem?*. Would this be what you are looking for? Best, Tyler Williams University of Chicago On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Jaros?aw Zapart wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > For a while now I?ve been trying to locate a complete edition of Hindi > verses composed by the founder of Radhasoami faith, but to no avail. I have > a volume of *selected* Hindi verses form the *S?r Bacan*, and a full > English translation, but not the complete Hindi collection. > > I would be very grateful if someone could help me in finding a physical or > digital copy of this compilation. > > With kind regards, > > Jaros?aw Zapart > > ---- > dr Jaros?aw Zapart > Centre for Comparative Studies of Civilizations > Jagiellonian University > Krak?w, Poland > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zysk at hum.ku.dk Thu Apr 14 06:42:19 2016 From: zysk at hum.ku.dk (Kenneth Gregory Zysk) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 16 06:42:19 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F745D0F200@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> Also from Brill but in the Sir Henry Wellcome Asian Series is my The Indian system of human marks in 2 vols. Brill, 2016. ISBN: 978-90-29972-6. http://www.brill.com/products/reference-work/indian-system-human-marks Best, Kenneth Zysk From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Johannes Bronkhorst Sent: 13. april 2016 13:36 To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication Dear friends and colleages, My latest book has come out: How the Brahmins Won: From Alexander to the Guptas. Brill, 2016. ISBN: 9789004315198. http://www.brill.com/products/book/how-brahmins-won Johannes Bronkhorst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Thu Apr 14 07:13:56 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 16 09:13:56 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: New publication In-Reply-To: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F745D0F200@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> Message-ID: Dear All, I hate to spoil the fantastic news about the two important publications. The prices. Prof. Bronkhorst's book's price ($ 199)is close to one third of my monthly pension. Prof. Zysk's ($ 299) - close to one half of my pension. Excellent work there, on the publishers side, but their prices exclude me, definitely, from their prospective buyers list. Is my University's Library going to buy the books? One cannot be certain, not considering financial restrictions faced by the educational institutions in Poland. Artur Karp Warsaw Poland 2016-04-14 8:42 GMT+02:00 Kenneth Gregory Zysk : > Also from Brill but in the Sir Henry Wellcome Asian Series is my > > > > *The Indian system of human marks* in 2 vols. Brill, 2016. ISBN: > 978-90-29972-6. > > > > http://www.brill.com/products/reference-work/indian-system-human-marks > > > > > > Best, > > Kenneth Zysk > > > > *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *On Behalf > Of *Johannes Bronkhorst > *Sent:* 13. april 2016 13:36 > *To:* indology at list.indology.info > *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] New publication > > > > Dear friends and colleages, > > > > My latest book has come out: > > > > *How the Brahmins Won: From Alexander to the Guptas*. Brill, 2016. ISBN: > 9789004315198. > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/how-brahmins-won > > > > Johannes Bronkhorst > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antonio.jardim at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 07:26:14 2016 From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 16 17:26:14 +1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: New publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Totally agree Artur. Professor Wujastyk has often advocated for authors to use Open Source publication platforms. I think we should all support his call. Apart from prestige, I cannot understand from an academic perspective why an author would choose to publish with publishers like Brill - a for-profit company with shareholders and hunger for ever increasing profits. I notice that Brill have never endowed a professorship in Indology - yet they have profited from the publications in our field for quite some time. It would seem unethical for academics to support them - especially in the present climate where our entire field is under attack from short-sighted governments on the one hand and fundamentalist political groups on the other. Indology is already in a precarious enough position, why make its fruits even more inaccessible? There's no point being the last endowed professor of Sanskrit publishing fabulous original research of works if noone can read them... Apologies for the rant. Kind regards, Antonio On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 5:13 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > Dear All, > > I hate to spoil the fantastic news about the two important publications. > > The prices. Prof. Bronkhorst's book's price ($ 199)is close to one third of > my monthly pension. Prof. Zysk's ($ 299) - close to one half of my pension. > > Excellent work there, on the publishers side, but their prices exclude me, > definitely, from their prospective buyers list. > > Is my University's Library going to buy the books? One cannot be certain, > not considering financial restrictions faced by the educational institutions > in Poland. > > Artur Karp > Warsaw > Poland > > 2016-04-14 8:42 GMT+02:00 Kenneth Gregory Zysk : >> >> Also from Brill but in the Sir Henry Wellcome Asian Series is my >> >> >> >> The Indian system of human marks in 2 vols. Brill, 2016. ISBN: >> 978-90-29972-6. >> >> >> >> http://www.brill.com/products/reference-work/indian-system-human-marks >> >> >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Kenneth Zysk >> >> >> >> From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of >> Johannes Bronkhorst >> Sent: 13. april 2016 13:36 >> To: indology at list.indology.info >> Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication >> >> >> >> Dear friends and colleages, >> >> >> >> My latest book has come out: >> >> >> >> How the Brahmins Won: From Alexander to the Guptas. Brill, 2016. ISBN: >> 9789004315198. >> >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/how-brahmins-won >> >> >> >> Johannes Bronkhorst >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) From jknutson at hawaii.edu Thu Apr 14 07:47:27 2016 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 16 21:47:27 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: New publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: These are brilliant points. Could we perhaps draft an open letter to Brill asking them to endow positions in Indology and Old Javanese (and perhaps threatening to boycott them otherwise)? It's a very reasonable request in light what Antonio points out . On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim < antonio.jardim at gmail.com> wrote: > Totally agree Artur. > > Professor Wujastyk has often advocated for authors to use Open Source > publication platforms. I think we should all support his call. > > Apart from prestige, I cannot understand from an academic perspective > why an author would choose to publish with publishers like Brill - a > for-profit company with shareholders and hunger for ever increasing > profits. I notice that Brill have never endowed a professorship in > Indology - yet they have profited from the publications in our field > for quite some time. It would seem unethical for academics to support > them - especially in the present climate where our entire field is > under attack from short-sighted governments on the one hand and > fundamentalist political groups on the other. > > Indology is already in a precarious enough position, why make its > fruits even more inaccessible? There's no point being the last endowed > professor of Sanskrit publishing fabulous original research of works > if noone can read them... > > Apologies for the rant. > > Kind regards, > Antonio > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 5:13 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > I hate to spoil the fantastic news about the two important publications. > > > > The prices. Prof. Bronkhorst's book's price ($ 199)is close to one third > of > > my monthly pension. Prof. Zysk's ($ 299) - close to one half of my > pension. > > > > Excellent work there, on the publishers side, but their prices exclude > me, > > definitely, from their prospective buyers list. > > > > Is my University's Library going to buy the books? One cannot be certain, > > not considering financial restrictions faced by the educational > institutions > > in Poland. > > > > Artur Karp > > Warsaw > > Poland > > > > 2016-04-14 8:42 GMT+02:00 Kenneth Gregory Zysk : > >> > >> Also from Brill but in the Sir Henry Wellcome Asian Series is my > >> > >> > >> > >> The Indian system of human marks in 2 vols. Brill, 2016. ISBN: > >> 978-90-29972-6. > >> > >> > >> > >> http://www.brill.com/products/reference-work/indian-system-human-marks > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Kenneth Zysk > >> > >> > >> > >> From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf > Of > >> Johannes Bronkhorst > >> Sent: 13. april 2016 13:36 > >> To: indology at list.indology.info > >> Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication > >> > >> > >> > >> Dear friends and colleages, > >> > >> > >> > >> My latest book has come out: > >> > >> > >> > >> How the Brahmins Won: From Alexander to the Guptas. Brill, 2016. ISBN: > >> 9789004315198. > >> > >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/how-brahmins-won > >> > >> > >> > >> Johannes Bronkhorst > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> INDOLOGY mailing list > >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > >> committee) > >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or > >> unsubscribe) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de Thu Apr 14 11:25:21 2016 From: falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Harry Falk) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 16 13:25:21 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication In-Reply-To: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F745D0F200@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> Message-ID: <50234.79.197.189.26.1460633121.webmail@webmail.zedat.fu-berlin.de> Just released: Kushan Histories - Literary Sources and Selected Papers from a Symposium at Berlin, December 5 to 7, 2013. (Monographien zur Indischen Arch?ologie, Kunst und Philologie, 23). Bremen (Hempen Verlag), 304 pp., cloth-bound, colour figs. pp. 30-152 The literary sources pp. 153-299 Papers ed. Harry Falk http://www.hempen-verlag.de/kushan-histories.html Harry Falk From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Thu Apr 14 16:23:39 2016 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 16 16:23:39 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Book Message-ID: <0CA0E4AE-6949-4489-BDBD-D4A4059EA921@austin.utexas.edu> Dear All: Just to let you all know that OUP has just published a paperback edition of my translation of Kau?ilya?s Artha??stra. The hardback was too expensive for most of us, and I hope this will be priced reasonably. Best, Patrick Olivelle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 16:59:08 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 16 10:59:08 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Problems with DLI-downloader In-Reply-To: <45989ECD-FD12-4FF8-9C5A-7D269B9EB9B7@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: http://www.dli.ernet.in/ used to be unusable, but for the last few weeks it's changed dramatically and it is now performing excellently. A whole book PDF in just a few seconds. Also, there's an upgraded DLI somewhere, perhaps 6+ (haven't checked), and I found it a bad upgrade because it now shouts constantly about funding. One can't use it without having to sign up to a payment portal, and although one can pay zero, one still gets annoying messages. The older DLI still works for me. But with the improved ernet.in portal, I think the java DLI downloader may become unnecessary. Dominik ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 17:18:46 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 16 11:18:46 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Sanskrit Word Frequency Tool In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Martin Gluckman has developed a very appealing Sanskrit word-frequency application, built on top of the data provided by the DCS of Oliver Hellwig. The prloject is still in beta-testing, and Martin would welcome feedback. Quite apart from it's technical utility, I think this application has an exemplary user interface. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk* Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity Department of History and Classics University of Alberta, Canada ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Martin Gluckman Date: 12 April 2016 at 12:07 Subject: Sanskrit Word Frequency Tool http://sanskritdictionary.com/frequency/ This is very much a draft of a concept I had in mind to do to help learners learn to most common words first but it has many uses of course and could be used for serious research if taken further. It currently uses the DCS database as it's corpus but this could be extended if there were other word level databases. Enjoy and would appreciate your feedback. Particularly about the date ranges if they make sense to you: [image: Inline image 1] Just click on them above to see the selected ranges. Kindest Wishes, Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Thu Apr 14 17:38:50 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 16 19:38:50 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All, If I mentioned the value of my pension, it was not with the aim to elicit some sort of compassion. It was meant to show the dramatic discrepancy between the prices Brill demands for its publications and the ability of people (some indologists among them) to buy them. Personally, I do not have too many needs, and am perfectly comfortable with what I have. It's just, damn it, that I want to read and learn. Being unable to fulfill that one need - just because books are being overpriced and more and more often beyond my reach - makes me frustrated. Kind of second class citizen complex. My regards to All, Artur 2016-04-14 9:13 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > Dear All, > > I hate to spoil the fantastic news about the two important publications. > > The prices. Prof. Bronkhorst's book's price ($ 199)is close to one third > of my monthly pension. Prof. Zysk's ($ 299) - close to one half of my > pension. > > Excellent work there, on the publishers side, but their prices exclude me, > definitely, from their prospective buyers list. > > Is my University's Library going to buy the books? One cannot be certain, > not considering financial restrictions faced by the educational > institutions in Poland. > > Artur Karp > Warsaw > Poland > > 2016-04-14 8:42 GMT+02:00 Kenneth Gregory Zysk : > >> Also from Brill but in the Sir Henry Wellcome Asian Series is my >> >> >> >> *The Indian system of human marks* in 2 vols. Brill, 2016. ISBN: >> 978-90-29972-6. >> >> >> >> http://www.brill.com/products/reference-work/indian-system-human-marks >> >> >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Kenneth Zysk >> >> >> >> *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *On Behalf >> Of *Johannes Bronkhorst >> *Sent:* 13. april 2016 13:36 >> *To:* indology at list.indology.info >> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] New publication >> >> >> >> Dear friends and colleages, >> >> >> >> My latest book has come out: >> >> >> >> *How the Brahmins Won: From Alexander to the Guptas*. Brill, 2016. ISBN: >> 9789004315198. >> >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/how-brahmins-won >> >> >> >> Johannes Bronkhorst >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org Thu Apr 14 20:08:06 2016 From: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org (Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 08:08:06 +1200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Library Materials Price Index (LMPI)] Re: Fwd: New publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <570FF8A6.3030808@indica-et-buddhica.org> Dear Antonio &c., This material may help to ground the discussion. Library Materials Price Index (LMPI) The annual index tracking the prices of print and electronic monographs and serials http://www.ala.org/alcts/mgrps/cmtes/ats-lmpi Prices of U.S. and Foreign Published Materials: http://www.ala.org/alcts/resources/collect/serials/spi https://alair.ala.org/handle/11213/88 Best, Richard On 2016-04-14 19:26, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim wrote: > Totally agree Artur. > > Professor Wujastyk has often advocated for authors to use Open > Source publication platforms. I think we should all support his > call. > > Apart from prestige, I cannot understand from an academic > perspective why an author would choose to publish with publishers > like Brill - a for-profit company with shareholders and hunger for > ever increasing profits. I notice that Brill have never endowed a > professorship in Indology - yet they have profited from the > publications in our field for quite some time. It would seem > unethical for academics to support them - especially in the present > climate where our entire field is under attack from short-sighted > governments on the one hand and fundamentalist political groups on > the other. > > Indology is already in a precarious enough position, why make its > fruits even more inaccessible? There's no point being the last > endowed professor of Sanskrit publishing fabulous original research > of works if noone can read them... > > Apologies for the rant. > > Kind regards, Antonio > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 5:13 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> I hate to spoil the fantastic news about the two important >> publications. >> >> The prices. Prof. Bronkhorst's book's price ($ 199)is close to one >> third of my monthly pension. Prof. Zysk's ($ 299) - close to one >> half of my pension. >> >> Excellent work there, on the publishers side, but their prices >> exclude me, definitely, from their prospective buyers list. >> >> Is my University's Library going to buy the books? One cannot be >> certain, not considering financial restrictions faced by the >> educational institutions in Poland. >> >> Artur Karp Warsaw Poland >> >> 2016-04-14 8:42 GMT+02:00 Kenneth Gregory Zysk : >>> >>> Also from Brill but in the Sir Henry Wellcome Asian Series is my >>> >>> >>> >>> The Indian system of human marks in 2 vols. Brill, 2016. ISBN: >>> 978-90-29972-6. >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.brill.com/products/reference-work/indian-system-human-marks >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Kenneth Zysk >>> >>> >>> >>> From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On >>> Behalf Of Johannes Bronkhorst Sent: 13. april 2016 13:36 To: >>> indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear friends and colleages, >>> >>> >>> >>> My latest book has come out: >>> >>> >>> >>> How the Brahmins Won: From Alexander to the Guptas. Brill, 2016. >>> ISBN: 9789004315198. >>> >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/how-brahmins-won >>> >>> >>> >>> Johannes Bronkhorst >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing >>> list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>> managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can >>> change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing >> list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing > list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info > (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) > -- Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica Littledene Bay Road Oxford 7430 NZ M: +64-21-064-0216 T: +64-3-312-1699 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 473 bytes Desc: not available URL: From j.zapart at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 20:26:40 2016 From: j.zapart at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Jaros=C5=82aw_Zapart?=) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 16 22:26:40 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_=C5=9Aiv_Day=C4=81l_Singh's_"S=C4=81r_Bacan"_-_a_request?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you both.? I?m currently awaiting a response from prof. Juergensmeyer. The mentioned book is probably what I'm looking for, although the title makes me uncertain. Either way, it?s currently out of my reach. Greetings, Jaros?aw Zapart W dniu 14 kwietnia 2016 @ 00:40:56, Tyler Williams (tylerwwilliams at gmail.com) napisa?(a): Dear?Jaros?aw, It seems that the University of Chicago has an edition (Allahabad,?Matabai Praya?ga Presa, 1884):?Pothi? sa?ra bacana Ra?dha?sva?mi? : nazama ya?ni? chanda mem?. ? Would this be what you are looking for? Best, Tyler Williams University of Chicago On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Jaros?aw Zapart wrote: Dear Colleagues, For a while now I?ve been trying to locate a complete edition of Hindi verses composed by the founder of Radhasoami faith, but to no avail. I have a volume of selected?Hindi verses form the S?r Bacan, and a full English translation, but not the complete Hindi collection. I would be very grateful if someone could help me in finding a physical or digital copy of this compilation. With kind regards, Jaros?aw Zapart ---- dr Jaros?aw Zapart Centre for Comparative Studies of Civilizations Jagiellonian University Krak?w, Poland _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ssandahl at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 15 02:12:05 2016 From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca (stella sandahl) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 16 22:12:05 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <195DD075-36D8-41AC-9F09-A33863CCBE25@sympatico.ca> Dear all, I am glad that people finally start protesting against Brill's overprized books. As a matter of principle I have not bought a single book from Brill during my entire long career in Indological pursuits. Maybe we should all start boycotting Brill? Best regards to all Stella Sandahl On Apr 14, 2016, at 1:38 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > > Dear All, > > If I mentioned the value of my pension, it was not with the aim to elicit some sort of compassion. It was meant to show the dramatic discrepancy between the prices Brill demands for its publications and the ability of people (some indologists among them) to buy them. > > Personally, I do not have too many needs, and am perfectly comfortable with what I have. It's just, damn it, that I want to read and learn. Being unable to fulfill that one need - just because books are being overpriced and more and more often beyond my reach - makes me frustrated. > > Kind of second class citizen complex. > > > My regards to All, > > Artur > > 2016-04-14 9:13 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > Dear All, > > I hate to spoil the fantastic news about the two important publications. > > The prices. Prof. Bronkhorst's book's price ($ 199)is close to one third of my monthly pension. Prof. Zysk's ($ 299) - close to one half of my pension. > > Excellent work there, on the publishers side, but their prices exclude me, definitely, from their prospective buyers list. > > Is my University's Library going to buy the books? One cannot be certain, not considering financial restrictions faced by the educational institutions in Poland. > > Artur Karp > Warsaw > Poland > > 2016-04-14 8:42 GMT+02:00 Kenneth Gregory Zysk : > Also from Brill but in the Sir Henry Wellcome Asian Series is my > > > > The Indian system of human marks in 2 vols. Brill, 2016. ISBN: 978-90-29972-6. > > > > http://www.brill.com/products/reference-work/indian-system-human-marks > > > > > > Best, > > Kenneth Zysk > > > > From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Johannes Bronkhorst > Sent: 13. april 2016 13:36 > To: indology at list.indology.info > Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication > > > > Dear friends and colleages, > > > > My latest book has come out: > > > > How the Brahmins Won: From Alexander to the Guptas. Brill, 2016. ISBN: 9789004315198. > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/how-brahmins-won > > > > Johannes Bronkhorst > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ssandahl at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 15 02:14:57 2016 From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca (stella sandahl) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 16 22:14:57 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Library Materials Price Index (LMPI)] Re: Fwd: New publication In-Reply-To: <570FF8A6.3030808@indica-et-buddhica.org> Message-ID: Dear all, Maybe Brill can make amends by endowing a few chairs in Indology here and there? Just a suggestion. Best Stella Sandahl On Apr 14, 2016, at 4:08 PM, Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica wrote: > Dear Antonio &c., > > This material may help to ground the discussion. > > > Library Materials Price Index (LMPI) > > The annual index tracking the prices of print and electronic > monographs and serials > > http://www.ala.org/alcts/mgrps/cmtes/ats-lmpi > > > Prices of U.S. and Foreign Published Materials: > > http://www.ala.org/alcts/resources/collect/serials/spi > > https://alair.ala.org/handle/11213/88 > > > > Best, Richard > > > > On 2016-04-14 19:26, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim wrote: >> Totally agree Artur. >> >> Professor Wujastyk has often advocated for authors to use Open >> Source publication platforms. I think we should all support his >> call. >> >> Apart from prestige, I cannot understand from an academic >> perspective why an author would choose to publish with publishers >> like Brill - a for-profit company with shareholders and hunger for >> ever increasing profits. I notice that Brill have never endowed a >> professorship in Indology - yet they have profited from the >> publications in our field for quite some time. It would seem >> unethical for academics to support them - especially in the present >> climate where our entire field is under attack from short-sighted >> governments on the one hand and fundamentalist political groups on >> the other. >> >> Indology is already in a precarious enough position, why make its >> fruits even more inaccessible? There's no point being the last >> endowed professor of Sanskrit publishing fabulous original research >> of works if noone can read them... >> >> Apologies for the rant. >> >> Kind regards, Antonio >> >> On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 5:13 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >>> Dear All, >>> >>> I hate to spoil the fantastic news about the two important >>> publications. >>> >>> The prices. Prof. Bronkhorst's book's price ($ 199)is close to one >>> third of my monthly pension. Prof. Zysk's ($ 299) - close to one >>> half of my pension. >>> >>> Excellent work there, on the publishers side, but their prices >>> exclude me, definitely, from their prospective buyers list. >>> >>> Is my University's Library going to buy the books? One cannot be >>> certain, not considering financial restrictions faced by the >>> educational institutions in Poland. >>> >>> Artur Karp Warsaw Poland >>> >>> 2016-04-14 8:42 GMT+02:00 Kenneth Gregory Zysk : >>>> >>>> Also from Brill but in the Sir Henry Wellcome Asian Series is my >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The Indian system of human marks in 2 vols. Brill, 2016. ISBN: >>>> 978-90-29972-6. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/reference-work/indian-system-human-marks >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > Best, >>>> >>>> Kenneth Zysk >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On >>>> Behalf Of Johannes Bronkhorst Sent: 13. april 2016 13:36 To: >>>> indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear friends and colleages, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My latest book has come out: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> How the Brahmins Won: From Alexander to the Guptas. Brill, 2016. >>>> ISBN: 9789004315198. >>>> >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/how-brahmins-won >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Johannes Bronkhorst >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing >>>> list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>>> managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can >>>> change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing >>> list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info >>> (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>> options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing >> list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) >> > > -- > Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica > > Littledene Bay Road Oxford 7430 NZ > M: +64-21-064-0216 T: +64-3-312-1699 > r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From nmisra at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 05:54:48 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 11:24:48 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: New publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Needless to say if the books were published in India, they would be much cheaper. In India, a 550-page hardcover published today by an average for-profit Indian publisher with offset printing (more than 500 copies) in metric demy 8vo size (138 mm x 216 mm) with 80 gsm paper and 300 gsm dust jacket along with thread binding would have a price between Rs. 650 to 700 (including the standard 50 to 55% distributor margins which are prevalent in India). For a print run of 2000 copies (which would cover most books published in India) with the above specifications, INR 1.2 to INR 1.25 per page is about the fair price for books. For books produced with digital printing (100 or 200 copies), the fair price is 20 to 25% higher. Many publishers in India print books with two prices (one in INR, and one in USD), with the price in USD being two to three times the USD equivalent of the price in INR. This being the average, prices much lower are not difficult to spot in India too. Some traditional publishers like Chowkhambha publish books that cost much lower per page: their four-volume Hindi commentary on the Siddhantakaumudi by Pandita Ishvarachandra with 2600 pages (which I think are 68 gsm) in 7 inch by 9.25 inch size costs Rs. 1300. With some publishers like Gita Press and Divya Prakashan (of Yoga guru Swami Ramdev), the scale is so large is that they can produce books which are unbelievably low priced and yet good quality. The 16th edition of Swami Ramdev's Pranayam Rahasya (ISBN 817525484X) had a print run of 200,000 copies. On Apr 14, 2016 12:44 PM, "Artur Karp" wrote: > Dear All, > > I hate to spoil the fantastic news about the two important publications. > > The prices. Prof. Bronkhorst's book's price ($ 199)is close to one third > of my monthly pension. Prof. Zysk's ($ 299) - close to one half of my > pension. > > Excellent work there, on the publishers side, but their prices exclude me, > definitely, from their prospective buyers list. > > Is my University's Library going to buy the books? One cannot be certain, > not considering financial restrictions faced by the educational > institutions in Poland. > > Artur Karp > Warsaw > Poland > > 2016-04-14 8:42 GMT+02:00 Kenneth Gregory Zysk : > >> Also from Brill but in the Sir Henry Wellcome Asian Series is my >> >> >> >> *The Indian system of human marks* in 2 vols. Brill, 2016. ISBN: >> 978-90-29972-6. >> >> >> >> http://www.brill.com/products/reference-work/indian-system-human-marks >> >> >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Kenneth Zysk >> >> >> >> *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *On Behalf >> Of *Johannes Bronkhorst >> *Sent:* 13. april 2016 13:36 >> *To:* indology at list.indology.info >> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] New publication >> >> >> >> Dear friends and colleages, >> >> >> >> My latest book has come out: >> >> >> >> *How the Brahmins Won: From Alexander to the Guptas*. Brill, 2016. ISBN: >> 9789004315198. >> >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/how-brahmins-won >> >> >> >> Johannes Bronkhorst >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl Fri Apr 15 09:05:51 2016 From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 11:05:51 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication In-Reply-To: <195DD075-36D8-41AC-9F09-A33863CCBE25@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: Dear All, I am exactly in the same situation as Artur. During our research, we constantly struggle with such problems. Moreover, it is difficult to buy such expensive books for our indological library too. Best, Joanna --- dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz, prof. UW Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz 2016-04-15 4:12 GMT+02:00 stella sandahl : > Dear all, > I am glad that people finally start protesting against Brill's overprized > books. > As a matter of principle I have not bought a single book from Brill during > my > entire long career in Indological pursuits. > Maybe we should all start boycotting Brill? > Best regards to all > Stella Sandahl > On Apr 14, 2016, at 1:38 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > > > Dear All, > > If I mentioned the value of my pension, it was not with the aim to elicit > some sort of compassion. It was meant to show the dramatic discrepancy > between the prices Brill demands for its publications and the ability of > people (some indologists among them) to buy them. > > Personally, I do not have too many needs, and am perfectly comfortable > with what I have. It's just, damn it, that I want to read and learn. Being > unable to fulfill that one need - just because books are being overpriced > and more and more often beyond my reach - makes me frustrated. > > Kind of second class citizen complex. > > > My regards to All, > > Artur > > 2016-04-14 9:13 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > >> Dear All, >> >> I hate to spoil the fantastic news about the two important publications. >> >> The prices. Prof. Bronkhorst's book's price ($ 199)is close to one third >> of my monthly pension. Prof. Zysk's ($ 299) - close to one half of my >> pension. >> >> Excellent work there, on the publishers side, but their prices exclude >> me, definitely, from their prospective buyers list. >> >> Is my University's Library going to buy the books? One cannot be certain, >> not considering financial restrictions faced by the educational >> institutions in Poland. >> >> Artur Karp >> Warsaw >> Poland >> >> 2016-04-14 8:42 GMT+02:00 Kenneth Gregory Zysk : >> >>> Also from Brill but in the Sir Henry Wellcome Asian Series is my >>> >>> >>> >>> *The Indian system of human marks* in 2 vols. Brill, 2016. ISBN: >>> 978-90-29972-6. >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.brill.com/products/reference-work/indian-system-human-marks >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Kenneth Zysk >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *On >>> Behalf Of *Johannes Bronkhorst >>> *Sent:* 13. april 2016 13:36 >>> *To:* indology at list.indology.info >>> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] New publication >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear friends and colleages, >>> >>> >>> >>> My latest book has come out: >>> >>> >>> >>> *How the Brahmins Won: From Alexander to the Guptas*. Brill, 2016. >>> ISBN: 9789004315198. >>> >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/how-brahmins-won >>> >>> >>> >>> Johannes Bronkhorst >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Fri Apr 15 14:25:44 2016 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 14:25:44 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [RISA-L LIST] Book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2BE58BA7-8580-442D-9B6F-D7A9758FC2D3@austin.utexas.edu> OUP tells me that the book will go on sale at their website tomorrow, and the Amazon feed should refresh over the weekend and then it will appear there too. On Apr 15, 2016, at 8:56 AM, Rohini Bakshi > wrote: Thank you! ________________________________ From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu To: risa-l at lists.sandiego.edu Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:54:02 +0000 Subject: Re: [RISA-L LIST] Book I will try to get it. On Apr 15, 2016, at 7:47 AM, Rohini Bakshi > wrote: Professor, I'm unable to find a link to the paperback. Could you kindly post one? Many thanks. Rohini ________________________________ From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu To: indology at list.indology.info; risa-l at lists.sandiego.edu Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:23:39 +0000 Subject: [RISA-L LIST] Book Dear All: Just to let you all know that OUP has just published a paperback edition of my translation of Kau?ilya?s Artha??stra. The hardback was too expensive for most of us, and I hope this will be priced reasonably. Best, Patrick Olivelle _______________________________________________ RISA-L mailing list RISA-L at lists.sandiego.eduhttps://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l _______________________________________________ RISA-L mailing list RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l _______________________________________________ RISA-L mailing list RISA-L at lists.sandiego.eduhttps://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l _______________________________________________ RISA-L mailing list RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From caf57 at cam.ac.uk Fri Apr 15 15:46:03 2016 From: caf57 at cam.ac.uk (C.A. Formigatti) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 16:46:03 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] IAST or ISO 15919 input tools for Windows 7 Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I would like to install on a Windows 7 machine a keyboard layout to input Sanskrit in IAST or ISO 15919 system-wide--and not only in Word. I know that many threads in this list have been dedicated to this topic, but I cannot find them anymore. I haven't been able to find a good solution so far, do you have any suggestion? Best wishes, Camillo Formigatti From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 16:09:00 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 10:09:00 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Another round in the California textbook story Message-ID: ---- *Hindutva Efforts to Rewrite History in California Schools Fail* // *The Wire* *Right-wing Hindu groups are seeking to gloss over Indian history and deny the reality of caste discrimination by deleting the word ?Dalit? from the history textbooks in California.* Right-wing groups are trying to deny the reality of caste discrimination. Credit: Wikimedia Commons *New York: *California reviews its textbooks every six years, inviting public opinion each time. The process has never been easy. The ?golden state? has again got far more than it bargained for in its latest round of reviews, with American right-wing Hindu groups demanding changes to the history and social science textbooks used in the sixth and seventh grades. On March 28, the Hindu American Foundation (HAF), the Uberoi Foundation for Religious Studies and the Dharma Civilization Foundation suffered a setback when a history and social science committee in Sacramento threw out most of the changes they wanted to make to the new California textbooks, which are slated for publication later this year. However, the California State Board of Education is scheduled to vote on the proposed framework changes in May. ?As much as it is about California textbooks, it is truly a battle which is ideological in nature,? said Thenmozhi Soundararajan of the Ambedkar Association of California, which with six other secular Indian groups is trying to make sure the ?egregious edits? submitted by HAF to the education board don?t find their way into the textbooks. According to activists like Soundararajan, right-wing Hindu groups want to gloss over Indian history and deny the reality of caste discrimination by deleting the word ?Dalit? from the history textbooks of the state. ?You can?t distort facts, whitewash history and deny what?s happened to millions of Indians from marginalised communities who are victims of caste apartheid,? said Soundararajan, who is the co-founder of Dalit History Month. ?You cannot tamper with and bring ideology into the framing of the past.? HAF and other right-wing Hindu groups, however, maintain that issues such as the caste system, the plight of dalits and discrimination against women do not belong in a sixth-grade introduction to world civilisations. HAF says that Indian American children are embarrassed by the depiction of Hinduism in ancient India in the history textbook. California ninth grader Akanksha Maddi wrote in a statement released by HAF that the textbooks are unfair to students of Indian heritage. ?My classmates and teachers think that we Hindus still believe in primitive and unjust practices,? Maddi wrote. ?I don?t want my friends to look down upon me and my culture because of my textbook.? The Uberoi Foundation for Religious Studies says Hindus are merely seeking parity with other religions in sixth grade textbooks, where social problems of other religions are not given the same prominence, even as the redeeming features of Hinduism are ignored. Shiva G. Bajpai, professor emeritus of Asian Studies at California State University, asked the education board for a revision, writing: ?Hindu children are bullied by their classmates for the system of *varna* and *jati* because the social iniquities of other religions go unmentioned? If the commission insists on keeping lines 862 to 874, it should add 300 to 400 word comments on social order and slavery for the Abrahamic religions.? A poster protesting the Hindu American Foundation?s claims, also showing an image from an American history textbook explaining the caste system. However, the South Asian Faculty Group made up of South Asian scholars from Stanford, UC Berkeley, San Francisco State University and UCLA, among others, held that history should not be tampered with, even if it is unpleasant. ?We are disturbed by claims that an equitable portrayal should prevail over historical accuracy,? said an expert who didn?t want to be named for fear of being targeted. ?It is a slippery slope.? *Protests over ?erasing? India * HAF is spearheading protests across America because it says it has discovered over 30 places in the sixth and seventh grade history textbooks where the words ?Hindu? or ?India? would be replaced in the new textbooks with ?South Asia.? Samir Kalra, senior director of HAF, told *The Washington Post* that the proposed changes could have ?implications for several years forward,? and could diminish the significance of Hindus in the ancient civilisation of India. Kalra told the newspaper that the textbook changes appear to only reflect revisions aimed at India and Hinduism: China will not be changed to ?East Asia,? nor will there be changes to any references to Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Sikhism or any other religions. The South Asian Faculty Group has fired back, saying that during the submissions in the public comment process it suggested that in some places ?India? be replaced with ?South Asia? because some of the areas discussed currently belong to Pakistan and are not aligned with modern-day India. ?Although ?Ancient India? is common in the source material, when discussing the Indus Valley Civilisation, we believe it will cause less confusion to students to refer to the ?Early Civilisation of South Asia? or ?Ancient South Asia? because much of the Indus Valley is now in modern Pakistan. Conflating ?Ancient India? with the modern nation-state of India deprives students from learning about the shared civilisational heritage of India and Pakistan,? the group said in a letter responding to HAF. The California State Board of Education will vote in May on whether to retain descriptions of the caste system, role of women, Aryan migrational history and polytheism in ancient Hindu religion and other issues ? as the textbook furore rages on. ---- Shared via *my feedly reader* -- Sent from Dominik Wujastyk's Android phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk Fri Apr 15 16:34:42 2016 From: c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk (Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 16:34:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Another round in the California textbook story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5622B5FA1B14F3439A3ABC85C5A09EA823DEC6CD@EX-1-MB1.lancs.local> As someone who watched my son's essay when he was at school actually get marked down in History because he argued that it did not make sense to talk about what was ?good? about the British Empire, I do get fed up about the huge variations in what counts as enough ?realism? for school children, and how nationalism (and its asociated religious history) regularly whitewashes the past. Looking at undergraduates in Britain, a great deal more of unvarnished reality is needed. In Britain, it is notable that Christianity gets read in school under ?Theology? and ?Ethics?, so that the focus is almost entirely on conceptual issues, while Hinduism is mostly studied sociologically. So students coming into first year university classes are all prepped up about the evils of caste and the maltreatment of women in Hinduism, with nary a thought about the iniquities perpetrated in the name of Christianity across history. From the little I have seen of Californian school books, this seems to be so there as well. I have no doubt that it is plain immoral that, under the guise of protecting children, the HAF and others want to write out the Hindu history and contemporary reality of discrimination. But I do wonder why this story does not engage with the legitimate question of disparity that has been vitiated by denialism. Are sixth-graders getting a taste of the egregious evils visited upon American society by Christian activists today? About the unbelievable suffering brought about by anti-abortion fundamentalism? About Spanish inquisitions and brutal missionaries, about the theology of imperialism, the Pauline subordination of women that has been such a model for modernity?s gender discrimination, etc., etc.? Ram Professor Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad Lancaster UniversityFrom: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Dominik Wujastyk [wujastyk at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, April 15, 2016 5:09 PM To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Another round in the California textbook story ---- Hindutva Efforts to Rewrite History in California Schools Fail // The Wire Right-wing Hindu groups are seeking to gloss over Indian history and deny the reality of caste discrimination by deleting the word ?Dalit? from the history textbooks in California. Right-wing groups are trying to deny the reality of caste discrimination. Credit: Wikimedia Commons New York: California reviews its textbooks every six years, inviting public opinion each time. The process has never been easy. The ?golden state? has again got far more than it bargained for in its latest round of reviews, with American right-wing Hindu groups demanding changes to the history and social science textbooks used in the sixth and seventh grades. On March 28, the Hindu American Foundation (HAF), the Uberoi Foundation for Religious Studies and the Dharma Civilization Foundation suffered a setback when a history and social science committee in Sacramento threw out most of the changes they wanted to make to the new California textbooks, which are slated for publication later this year. However, the California State Board of Education is scheduled to vote on the proposed framework changes in May. ?As much as it is about California textbooks, it is truly a battle which is ideological in nature,? said Thenmozhi Soundararajan of the Ambedkar Association of California, which with six other secular Indian groups is trying to make sure the ?egregious edits? submitted by HAF to the education board don?t find their way into the textbooks. According to activists like Soundararajan, right-wing Hindu groups want to gloss over Indian history and deny the reality of caste discrimination by deleting the word ?Dalit? from the history textbooks of the state. ?You can?t distort facts, whitewash history and deny what?s happened to millions of Indians from marginalised communities who are victims of caste apartheid,? said Soundararajan, who is the co-founder of Dalit History Month. ?You cannot tamper with and bring ideology into the framing of the past.? HAF and other right-wing Hindu groups, however, maintain that issues such as the caste system, the plight of dalits and discrimination against women do not belong in a sixth-grade introduction to world civilisations. HAF says that Indian American children are embarrassed by the depiction of Hinduism in ancient India in the history textbook. California ninth grader Akanksha Maddi wrote in a statement released by HAF that the textbooks are unfair to students of Indian heritage. ?My classmates and teachers think that we Hindus still believe in primitive and unjust practices,? Maddi wrote. ?I don?t want my friends to look down upon me and my culture because of my textbook.? The Uberoi Foundation for Religious Studies says Hindus are merely seeking parity with other religions in sixth grade textbooks, where social problems of other religions are not given the same prominence, even as the redeeming features of Hinduism are ignored. Shiva G. Bajpai, professor emeritus of Asian Studies at California State University, asked the education board for a revision, writing: ?Hindu children are bullied by their classmates for the system of varna and jati because the social iniquities of other religions go unmentioned? If the commission insists on keeping lines 862 to 874, it should add 300 to 400 word comments on social order and slavery for the Abrahamic religions.? A poster protesting the Hindu American Foundation?s claims, also showing an image from an American history textbook explaining the caste system. However, the South Asian Faculty Group made up of South Asian scholars from Stanford, UC Berkeley, San Francisco State University and UCLA, among others, held that history should not be tampered with, even if it is unpleasant. ?We are disturbed by claims that an equitable portrayal should prevail over historical accuracy,? said an expert who didn?t want to be named for fear of being targeted. ?It is a slippery slope.? Protests over ?erasing? India HAF is spearheading protests across America because it says it has discovered over 30 places in the sixth and seventh grade history textbooks where the words ?Hindu? or ?India? would be replaced in the new textbooks with ?South Asia.? Samir Kalra, senior director of HAF, told The Washington Post that the proposed changes could have ?implications for several years forward,? and could diminish the significance of Hindus in the ancient civilisation of India. Kalra told the newspaper that the textbook changes appear to only reflect revisions aimed at India and Hinduism: China will not be changed to ?East Asia,? nor will there be changes to any references to Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Sikhism or any other religions. The South Asian Faculty Group has fired back, saying that during the submissions in the public comment process it suggested that in some places ?India? be replaced with ?South Asia? because some of the areas discussed currently belong to Pakistan and are not aligned with modern-day India. ?Although ?Ancient India? is common in the source material, when discussing the Indus Valley Civilisation, we believe it will cause less confusion to students to refer to the ?Early Civilisation of South Asia? or ?Ancient South Asia? because much of the Indus Valley is now in modern Pakistan. Conflating ?Ancient India? with the modern nation-state of India deprives students from learning about the shared civilisational heritage of India and Pakistan,? the group said in a letter responding to HAF. The California State Board of Education will vote in May on whether to retain descriptions of the caste system, role of women, Aryan migrational history and polytheism in ancient Hindu religion and other issues ? as the textbook furore rages on. ---- Shared via my feedly reader -- Sent from Dominik Wujastyk's Android phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From caf57 at cam.ac.uk Fri Apr 15 17:12:32 2016 From: caf57 at cam.ac.uk (C.A. Formigatti) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 18:12:32 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Sanskrit Word Frequency Tool In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It is a wonderful tool! And moreover, artha beats dharma 10453 to 8472, I couldn't believe it. :-) From nmisra at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 18:04:49 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 23:34:49 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Another round in the California textbook story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15 April 2016 at 21:39, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > ---- > *Hindutva Efforts to Rewrite History in California Schools Fail* > > // *The Wire* > > > *Right-wing Hindu groups are seeking to gloss over Indian history and deny > the reality of caste discrimination by deleting the word ?Dalit? from the > history textbooks in California.* > > > Are the author and the the report reliable? I searched the 477-page summary table report document of suggested revisions to Draft History-Social Science Framework (available from http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/cc/cd/documents/hsssummarypubcomments.doc). The word does not occur *even once *in the document. Then from where did the author pull this statement (italics mine): Quote Right-wing Hindu groups are seeking to gloss over Indian history and deny the reality of caste discrimination *by deleting the word ?Dalit? *from the history textbooks in California. Unquote Can somebody point to a source which corroborates the claim regarding the word Dalit by the author? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 18:06:13 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 23:36:13 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Another round in the California textbook story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15 April 2016 at 23:34, Nityanand Misra wrote: > > > Are the author and the the report reliable? I searched the 477-page > summary table report document of suggested revisions to Draft > History-Social Science Framework (available from > http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/cc/cd/documents/hsssummarypubcomments.doc). The > word does not occur *even once *in the document. Then from where did the > author pull this statement (italics mine): > > I meant to say The word "Dalit" does not occur even once in the summary table report. -- Nity?nanda Mi?ra -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 18:06:13 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 12:06:13 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Launch of Sahapedia Platform on April 23 Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: sahapedia online Date: 15 April 2016 at 05:29 Subject: Launch of Sahapedia Platform on April 23 It gives me great pleasure that *Sahapedia, an open, online encyclopedic resource on Indian arts, cultures and heritage,* has reached an important milestone in a journey that started in 2010. Sahapedia's website, on which we have been working for the last five years in terms of content creation and partnerships, and the last one year in terms of development, is now ready for launch. Some of the areas Sahapedia covers are knowledge systems, textual and oral traditions, visual and performing arts, literatures and languages, spaces and practices, histories, institutions and people. We wish to create this encyclopedia, freely available to everyone, in collaboration with institutions, experts, practitioners and interested people from all areas of cultural activity. As we keep building the resource, we seek your continued involvement with and support for Sahapedia. We are delighted to share the news with you that we are *launching the Sahapedia web platform on 23 April (Saturday) at the Meghdoot Theatre, Rabindra Bhavan, Mandi House, New Delhi 110 001 at 6 pm. * ?See:? *www.sahapedia.org * Sudha Gopalakrishnan -- Sudha Gopalakrishnan PhD Executive Director, Sahapedia PTI Building, Fifth Floor Sansad Marg New Delhi 110001 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From audrey.truschke at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 18:24:43 2016 From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 11:24:43 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Another round in the California textbook story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perhaps the controversy was over the word "untouchable" rather than "Dalit"? There are some rather eye-popping suggested emendations surrounding "untouchable" in the report. Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Mellon Postdoctoral Fellow Department of Religious Studies Stanford University e- mail | website On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 11:06 AM, Nityanand Misra wrote: > > > On 15 April 2016 at 23:34, Nityanand Misra wrote: > >> >> >> Are the author and the the report reliable? I searched the 477-page >> summary table report document of suggested revisions to Draft >> History-Social Science Framework (available from >> http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/cc/cd/documents/hsssummarypubcomments.doc). The >> word does not occur *even once *in the document. Then from where did the >> author pull this statement (italics mine): >> >> > I meant to say The word "Dalit" does not occur even once in the summary > table report. > > > -- > Nity?nanda Mi?ra > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shalinisinha90 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 15 19:29:56 2016 From: shalinisinha90 at hotmail.com (Shalini Sinha) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 19:29:56 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Another round in the California textbook story In-Reply-To: <5622B5FA1B14F3439A3ABC85C5A09EA823DEC6CD@EX-1-MB1.lancs.local> Message-ID: I have to agree with Ram's well-pointed critique of both sides of this debate. There is surely a need for a more critical appraisal of Abrahamic religious traditions and histories with regard to imperialism, gender, and so on, as much as there is of caste iniquities, and the oppression of Dalits and women in Hinduism. At the same time, the core religio-philosophical ideas, debates, and practices of the latter need to be presented with clarity and insight - as they do in the case of other religious traditions. This is apparent to any parent who has witnessed what is taught in British schools. As someone who has been through the Canadian school system and worked as a university student on revising Ontario high school textbooks in the 1980s - in Economics rather than Religions - it is astonishing how little has been done in this regard in the U.S. and Britain. Nathaniel Adams Tobias Coleman has raised some of these issues for the study of philosophy, something I am more conversant with, and we are certainly trying to change the philosophy curriculum at the undergraduate level to reflect these concerns. This is part of a BME (black, minority, ethnic) initiative in universities that comes under "Why is my curriculum white?" The initiative addresses not only the inclusion of 'world philosophies' in the curriculum but also the question of method - how they are presented vis-a-vis 'Western philosophy', and with regard to global issues and current socio-political and economic concerns. A parallel, more critical framework for the study of religions at the high school level appears equally essential. Shalini Dr. Shalini SinhaLecturer in Non-Western PhilosophyDepartment of PhilosophyUniversity of Reading From: c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk To: indology at list.indology.info Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 16:34:42 +0000 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Another round in the California textbook story As someone who watched my son's essay when he was at school actually get marked down in History because he argued that it did not make sense to talk about what was ?good? about the British Empire, I do get fed up about the huge variations in what counts as enough ?realism? for school children, and how nationalism (and its asociated religious history) regularly whitewashes the past. Looking at undergraduates in Britain, a great deal more of unvarnished reality is needed. In Britain, it is notable that Christianity gets read in school under ?Theology? and ?Ethics?, so that the focus is almost entirely on conceptual issues, while Hinduism is mostly studied sociologically. So students coming into first year university classes are all prepped up about the evils of caste and the maltreatment of women in Hinduism, with nary a thought about the iniquities perpetrated in the name of Christianity across history. From the little I have seen of Californian school books, this seems to be so there as well. I have no doubt that it is plain immoral that, under the guise of protecting children, the HAF and others want to write out the Hindu history and contemporary reality of discrimination. But I do wonder why this story does not engage with the legitimate question of disparity that has been vitiated by denialism. Are sixth-graders getting a taste of the egregious evils visited upon American society by Christian activists today? About the unbelievable suffering brought about by anti-abortion fundamentalism? About Spanish inquisitions and brutal missionaries, about the theology of imperialism, the Pauline subordination of women that has been such a model for modernity?s gender discrimination, etc., etc.? Ram Professor Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad Lancaster UniversityFrom: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Dominik Wujastyk [wujastyk at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, April 15, 2016 5:09 PM To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Another round in the California textbook story ---- Hindutva Efforts to Rewrite History in California Schools Fail // The Wire Right-wing Hindu groups are seeking to gloss over Indian history and deny the reality of caste discrimination by deleting the word ?Dalit? from the history textbooks in California. Right-wing groups are trying to deny the reality of caste discrimination. Credit: Wikimedia Commons New York: California reviews its textbooks every six years, inviting public opinion each time. The process has never been easy. The ?golden state? has again got far more than it bargained for in its latest round of reviews, with American right-wing Hindu groups demanding changes to the history and social science textbooks used in the sixth and seventh grades. On March 28, the Hindu American Foundation (HAF), the Uberoi Foundation for Religious Studies and the Dharma Civilization Foundation suffered a setback when a history and social science committee in Sacramento threw out most of the changes they wanted to make to the new California textbooks, which are slated for publication later this year. However, the California State Board of Education is scheduled to vote on the proposed framework changes in May. ?As much as it is about California textbooks, it is truly a battle which is ideological in nature,? said Thenmozhi Soundararajan of the Ambedkar Association of California, which with six other secular Indian groups is trying to make sure the ?egregious edits? submitted by HAF to the education board don?t find their way into the textbooks. According to activists like Soundararajan, right-wing Hindu groups want to gloss over Indian history and deny the reality of caste discrimination by deleting the word ?Dalit? from the history textbooks of the state. ?You can?t distort facts, whitewash history and deny what?s happened to millions of Indians from marginalised communities who are victims of caste apartheid,? said Soundararajan, who is the co-founder of Dalit History Month. ?You cannot tamper with and bring ideology into the framing of the past.? HAF and other right-wing Hindu groups, however, maintain that issues such as the caste system, the plight of dalits and discrimination against women do not belong in a sixth-grade introduction to world civilisations. HAF says that Indian American children are embarrassed by the depiction of Hinduism in ancient India in the history textbook. California ninth grader Akanksha Maddi wrote in a statement released by HAF that the textbooks are unfair to students of Indian heritage. ?My classmates and teachers think that we Hindus still believe in primitive and unjust practices,? Maddi wrote. ?I don?t want my friends to look down upon me and my culture because of my textbook.? The Uberoi Foundation for Religious Studies says Hindus are merely seeking parity with other religions in sixth grade textbooks, where social problems of other religions are not given the same prominence, even as the redeeming features of Hinduism are ignored. Shiva G. Bajpai, professor emeritus of Asian Studies at California State University, asked the education board for a revision, writing: ?Hindu children are bullied by their classmates for the system of varna and jati because the social iniquities of other religions go unmentioned? If the commission insists on keeping lines 862 to 874, it should add 300 to 400 word comments on social order and slavery for the Abrahamic religions.? A poster protesting the Hindu American Foundation?s claims, also showing an image from an American history textbook explaining the caste system. However, the South Asian Faculty Group made up of South Asian scholars from Stanford, UC Berkeley, San Francisco State University and UCLA, among others, held that history should not be tampered with, even if it is unpleasant. ?We are disturbed by claims that an equitable portrayal should prevail over historical accuracy,? said an expert who didn?t want to be named for fear of being targeted. ?It is a slippery slope.? Protests over ?erasing? India HAF is spearheading protests across America because it says it has discovered over 30 places in the sixth and seventh grade history textbooks where the words ?Hindu? or ?India? would be replaced in the new textbooks with ?South Asia.? Samir Kalra, senior director of HAF, told The Washington Post that the proposed changes could have ?implications for several years forward,? and could diminish the significance of Hindus in the ancient civilisation of India. Kalra told the newspaper that the textbook changes appear to only reflect revisions aimed at India and Hinduism: China will not be changed to ?East Asia,? nor will there be changes to any references to Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Sikhism or any other religions. The South Asian Faculty Group has fired back, saying that during the submissions in the public comment process it suggested that in some places ?India? be replaced with ?South Asia? because some of the areas discussed currently belong to Pakistan and are not aligned with modern-day India. ?Although ?Ancient India? is common in the source material, when discussing the Indus Valley Civilisation, we believe it will cause less confusion to students to refer to the ?Early Civilisation of South Asia? or ?Ancient South Asia? because much of the Indus Valley is now in modern Pakistan. Conflating ?Ancient India? with the modern nation-state of India deprives students from learning about the shared civilisational heritage of India and Pakistan,? the group said in a letter responding to HAF. The California State Board of Education will vote in May on whether to retain descriptions of the caste system, role of women, Aryan migrational history and polytheism in ancient Hindu religion and other issues ? as the textbook furore rages on. ---- Shared via my feedly reader -- Sent from Dominik Wujastyk's Android phone _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Fri Apr 15 20:45:52 2016 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 14:45:52 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Another round in the California textbook story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9872C458-7A94-44C0-854B-6539AD17859B@ivs.edu> Thanks, Dominik. Ships passing in the night? None of the quotes opposing right-wing revisions addressed the main argument: that 6th and 7th grade textbooks in Calif do not tell the dark side of other religions or cultures, at least not to the same extent. Personally, I have no idea what these textbooks tell or don?t tell about other cultures and religions. I am simply interested in equal treatment, and the article did not address that issue. The article headline states that right-wing groups ?deny the reality? of historical evils. But the quotes provided simply show a plea for equal treatment in children?s textbooks, not an explicit denial of history. What?s going on here? Howard > On Apr 15, 2016, at 10:09 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > ---- > Hindutva Efforts to Rewrite History in California Schools Fail > // The Wire > Right-wing Hindu groups are seeking to gloss over Indian history and deny the reality of caste discrimination by deleting the word ?Dalit? from the history textbooks in California. > > Right-wing groups are trying to deny the reality of caste discrimination. Credit: Wikimedia Commons > > New York: California reviews its textbooks every six years, inviting public opinion each time. The process has never been easy. The ?golden state? has again got far more than it bargained for in its latest round of reviews, with American right-wing Hindu groups demanding changes to the history and social science textbooks used in the sixth and seventh grades. > > On March 28, the Hindu American Foundation (HAF), the Uberoi Foundation for Religious Studies and the Dharma Civilization Foundation suffered a setback when a history and social science committee in Sacramento threw out most of the changes they wanted to make to the new California textbooks, which are slated for publication later this year. However, the California State Board of Education is scheduled to vote on the proposed framework changes in May. > > ?As much as it is about California textbooks, it is truly a battle which is ideological in nature,? said Thenmozhi Soundararajan of the Ambedkar Association of California, which with six other secular Indian groups is trying to make sure the ?egregious edits? submitted by HAF to the education board don?t find their way into the textbooks. > > According to activists like Soundararajan, right-wing Hindu groups want to gloss over Indian history and deny the reality of caste discrimination by deleting the word ?Dalit? from the history textbooks of the state. > > ?You can?t distort facts, whitewash history and deny what?s happened to millions of Indians from marginalised communities who are victims of caste apartheid,? said Soundararajan, who is the co-founder of Dalit History Month. ?You cannot tamper with and bring ideology into the framing of the past.? > > HAF and other right-wing Hindu groups, however, maintain that issues such as the caste system, the plight of dalits and discrimination against women do not belong in a sixth-grade introduction to world civilisations. HAF says that Indian American children are embarrassed by the depiction of Hinduism in ancient India in the history textbook. > > California ninth grader Akanksha Maddi wrote in a statement released by HAF that the textbooks are unfair to students of Indian heritage. > > ?My classmates and teachers think that we Hindus still believe in primitive and unjust practices,? Maddi wrote. ?I don?t want my friends to look down upon me and my culture because of my textbook.? > > The Uberoi Foundation for Religious Studies says Hindus are merely seeking parity with other religions in sixth grade textbooks, where social problems of other religions are not given the same prominence, even as the redeeming features of Hinduism are ignored. > > Shiva G. Bajpai, professor emeritus of Asian Studies at California State University, asked the education board for a revision, writing: ?Hindu children are bullied by their classmates for the system of varna and jati because the social iniquities of other religions go unmentioned? If the commission insists on keeping lines 862 to 874, it should add 300 to 400 word comments on social order and slavery for the Abrahamic religions.? > > A poster protesting the Hindu American Foundation?s claims, also showing an image from an American history textbook explaining the caste system. > > However, the South Asian Faculty Group made up of South Asian scholars from Stanford, UC Berkeley, San Francisco State University and UCLA, among others, held that history should not be tampered with, even if it is unpleasant. > > ?We are disturbed by claims that an equitable portrayal should prevail over historical accuracy,? said an expert who didn?t want to be named for fear of being targeted. ?It is a slippery slope.? > > Protests over ?erasing? India > > HAF is spearheading protests across America because it says it has discovered over 30 places in the sixth and seventh grade history textbooks where the words ?Hindu? or ?India? would be replaced in the new textbooks with ?South Asia.? > > Samir Kalra, senior director of HAF, told The Washington Post that the proposed changes could have ?implications for several years forward,? and could diminish the significance of Hindus in the ancient civilisation of India. Kalra told the newspaper that the textbook changes appear to only reflect revisions aimed at India and Hinduism: China will not be changed to ?East Asia,? nor will there be changes to any references to Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Sikhism or any other religions. > > The South Asian Faculty Group has fired back, saying that during the submissions in the public comment process it suggested that in some places ?India? be replaced with ?South Asia? because some of the areas discussed currently belong to Pakistan and are not aligned with modern-day India. > > ?Although ?Ancient India? is common in the source material, when discussing the Indus Valley Civilisation, we believe it will cause less confusion to students to refer to the ?Early Civilisation of South Asia? or ?Ancient South Asia? because much of the Indus Valley is now in modern Pakistan. Conflating ?Ancient India? with the modern nation-state of India deprives students from learning about the shared civilisational heritage of India and Pakistan,? the group said in a letter responding to HAF. > > The California State Board of Education will vote in May on whether to retain descriptions of the caste system, role of women, Aryan migrational history and polytheism in ancient Hindu religion and other issues ? as the textbook furore rages on. > > ---- > > Shared via my feedly reader > -- > Sent from Dominik Wujastyk's Android phone > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 23:54:42 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 16 17:54:42 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: New publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a lot of sympathy for all the views expressed here about the high prices of Brill books. I'm ambivalent myself, about being an editor of a series published by Brill. When I founded the series (with Paul Unschuld and Larry Conrad) we argued strongly about keeping prices down. And at first that seemed to work, sort of. But now prices are extremely high, and we're in a problem situation. ?299 for Zysk's book is very much, although one does get two volumes, and there is a huge amount of work in the volumes, both Zysk's scholarly labours and multiple refereeing, proof-reading, good paper, typesetting, binding, marketing and distribution. It's a very nice physical object, it has to be said. And it will be on the shelves in a century, when many books less-well produced may no longer be useable. That sort of thing has to be paid for. Nevertheless. I have advocated Open Access publishing for journals. I'm less sure about books. It's worth discussing. Books are very different animals (usually). I'm not sure the OA model translates to books, although I am sure it's very good for journals. I especially advocate authors keeping their copyright. The idea of Open Source, mentioned by Antonio, doesn't apply to academic writing, although I also like the concept. Antonio also mentioned that Brill hasn't endowed a professorship in Indology. It would be interesting to know what they do fund, academically. I know one colleague personally who edits a series for Brill, and whose university receives an annual payment of several thousand dollars from Brill that buys him out of some teaching because of his editorial duties. Perhaps Brill pays for more that we're not aware of? It would be worth asking them. It's always been clear that Brill's business plan is to market to academic libraries, and only incidentally to individuals. With modern inter-library loan, it's normally not too difficult to get hold of a volume one wants to read. Best, Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 00:49:26 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 16 06:19:26 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Another round in the California textbook story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15 April 2016 at 23:54, Audrey Truschke wrote: > Perhaps the controversy was over the word "untouchable" rather than > "Dalit"? There are some rather eye-popping suggested emendations > surrounding "untouchable" in the report. > > > Perhaps. It is still not the finest hour for journalism. The reporter takes words from *activists* like Thenmozhi Soundararajan straight into the sub-headline without any fact-checking. Article body: ?According to activists like Soundararajan, right-wing Hindu groups want to gloss over Indian history and deny the reality of caste discrimination by deleting the word ?Dalit? from the history textbooks of the state.? Sub-headline: ?Right-wing Hindu groups are seeking to gloss over Indian history and deny the reality of caste discrimination by deleting the word ?Dalit? from the history textbooks in California.? Even if one concedes Soundararajan mistook references to untouchables/untouchability as the word Dalit, most probably she still has her facts wrong. Four comments in the summary table document (2514, 2516, 2517, and 2518) concern untouchables/untouchability. Of these, comments by the Hindu groups (2514 by the Uberoi Foundation and 2518 by the Hindu American Foundation) suggest replacing the term ?Untouchables? with ?socially and economically disadvantaged communities? and ?socially ostracized and economically disadvantaged communities?, respectively. Comments 2516 and 2517 requesting for deleting references to untouchables/untouchability are by *individuals* (Hemant Thobbi and Sandeep Dedge respectively) and not Hindu groups. Of these, Hemant Thobbi requested deletion of references to Untouchability on account of equal treatment to all cultures (?lawfully omitting similar parallels for other cultures is discriminatory?) while Sandeep Dedge suggested deleting this reference without any reason. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antonio.jardim at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 01:30:19 2016 From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 16 11:30:19 +1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: New publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, I'm not certain of the situation elsewhere but here in Australia increasingly it is the preference for university libraries to purchase books in its electronic form - with many of the older physical books being liquidated or placed into storage. Many Humanities librarians are directed by university policy to purchase the electronic rather than the physical copy. This purchasing policy direction seems irreversible and seems to weaken the notion of a beautifully produced physical book that will last 100 years on a library shelf somewhere. This purchasing model also makes inter-library loan much more difficult as the library's purchase of that particular book is bound only to registered users of that particular book. It's no surprise to me either that often the electronic copy is as expensive as the physical copy. We also shouldn't forget that University libraries are having their budgets cut (especially in the Humanities) at precisely the same time as some publishers like Brill are increasing their prices. Academics don't exist in an ethical bubble. If academic authors choose publishers that are simply unaffordable to individuals and libraries then they participate in a system that is putting valuable research in the hands of fewer and fewer people - at a time when the Humanities are under unprecedented threat from politicians and university administrators. I don't see how this can remain tolerable. Kind regards, Antonio On 16 Apr 2016 7:56 am, "Dominik Wujastyk" wrote: > I have a lot of sympathy for all the views expressed here about the high > prices of Brill books. I'm ambivalent myself, about being an editor of a > series published by Brill. When I founded the series (with Paul Unschuld > and Larry Conrad) we argued strongly about keeping prices down. And at > first that seemed to work, sort of. But now prices are extremely high, and > we're in a problem situation. ?299 for Zysk's book is very much, although > one does get two volumes, and there is a huge amount of work in the > volumes, both Zysk's scholarly labours and multiple refereeing, > proof-reading, good paper, typesetting, binding, marketing and > distribution. It's a very nice physical object, it has to be said. And it > will be on the shelves in a century, when many books less-well produced may > no longer be useable. That sort of thing has to be paid for. Nevertheless. > > I have advocated Open Access publishing for journals. I'm less sure about > books. It's worth discussing. Books are very different animals > (usually). I'm not sure the OA model translates to books, although I am > sure it's very good for journals. I especially advocate authors keeping > their copyright. The idea of Open Source, mentioned by Antonio, doesn't > apply to academic writing, although I also like the concept. > > Antonio also mentioned that Brill hasn't endowed a professorship in > Indology. It would be interesting to know what they do fund, > academically. I know one colleague personally who edits a series for > Brill, and whose university receives an annual payment of several thousand > dollars from Brill that buys him out of some teaching because of his > editorial duties. Perhaps Brill pays for more that we're not aware of? It > would be worth asking them. > > It's always been clear that Brill's business plan is to market to academic > libraries, and only incidentally to individuals. With modern inter-library > loan, it's normally not too difficult to get hold of a volume one wants to > read. > > Best, > Dominik > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sat Apr 16 05:11:08 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 16 07:11:08 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: New publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All, Antonio writes: > I don't see how this can remain tolerable. It doesn't remain intolerable. Sooner or later (at the most two years) those expensive electronic copies are stolen (or pirated, whatever) and trickle down into a kind of second-hand, freely accessible electronic depositories. Should I provide links to some of the most popular web portals, calling themselves "scientific community targeting collections of books"? By not coming up with much cheaper alternatives to their products, such as could be purchased (and placed on their shelves) by the general reading public, the publishing business acts against its own interests. Ultimately, limited demand for their luxury editions, and, simultaneously, loss of possible profits from the sale of the cheaper versions of their books. Regards, Artur 2016-04-16 3:30 GMT+02:00 Antonio Ferreira-Jardim : > Dear all, > > I'm not certain of the situation elsewhere but here in Australia > increasingly it is the preference for university libraries to purchase > books in its electronic form - with many of the older physical books being > liquidated or placed into storage. Many Humanities librarians are directed > by university policy to purchase the electronic rather than the physical > copy. > > This purchasing policy direction seems irreversible and seems to weaken > the notion of a beautifully produced physical book that will last 100 years > on a library shelf somewhere. This purchasing model also makes > inter-library loan much more difficult as the library's purchase of that > particular book is bound only to registered users of that particular book. > > It's no surprise to me either that often the electronic copy is as > expensive as the physical copy. We also shouldn't forget that University > libraries are having their budgets cut (especially in the Humanities) at > precisely the same time as some publishers like Brill are increasing their > prices. > > Academics don't exist in an ethical bubble. If academic authors choose > publishers that are simply unaffordable to individuals and libraries then > they participate in a system that is putting valuable research in the hands > of fewer and fewer people - at a time when the Humanities are under > unprecedented threat from politicians and university administrators. > > I don't see how this can remain tolerable. > > Kind regards, > Antonio > On 16 Apr 2016 7:56 am, "Dominik Wujastyk" wrote: > >> I have a lot of sympathy for all the views expressed here about the high >> prices of Brill books. I'm ambivalent myself, about being an editor of a >> series published by Brill. When I founded the series (with Paul Unschuld >> and Larry Conrad) we argued strongly about keeping prices down. And at >> first that seemed to work, sort of. But now prices are extremely high, and >> we're in a problem situation. ?299 for Zysk's book is very much, although >> one does get two volumes, and there is a huge amount of work in the >> volumes, both Zysk's scholarly labours and multiple refereeing, >> proof-reading, good paper, typesetting, binding, marketing and >> distribution. It's a very nice physical object, it has to be said. And it >> will be on the shelves in a century, when many books less-well produced may >> no longer be useable. That sort of thing has to be paid for. Nevertheless. >> >> I have advocated Open Access publishing for journals. I'm less sure >> about books. It's worth discussing. Books are very different animals >> (usually). I'm not sure the OA model translates to books, although I am >> sure it's very good for journals. I especially advocate authors keeping >> their copyright. The idea of Open Source, mentioned by Antonio, doesn't >> apply to academic writing, although I also like the concept. >> >> Antonio also mentioned that Brill hasn't endowed a professorship in >> Indology. It would be interesting to know what they do fund, >> academically. I know one colleague personally who edits a series for >> Brill, and whose university receives an annual payment of several thousand >> dollars from Brill that buys him out of some teaching because of his >> editorial duties. Perhaps Brill pays for more that we're not aware of? It >> would be worth asking them. >> >> It's always been clear that Brill's business plan is to market to >> academic libraries, and only incidentally to individuals. With modern >> inter-library loan, it's normally not too difficult to get hold of a volume >> one wants to read. >> >> Best, >> Dominik >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanus1216 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 16 17:50:01 2016 From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com (Allen Thrasher) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 16 17:50:01 +0000 Subject: SAsia library post at Library of Congress In-Reply-To: <1286735413.1795754.1460829001292.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1286735413.1795754.1460829001292.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> My apologies for the late posting (deadline tomorrow, but it might be extended). ?I made a technical booboo in an earlier attempt. ?Anyway, my old position at the LOC has finally been posted, link attached below. ? NOTA BENE: 1. ?You not absolutely have to be a US citizen.2. ?The language primarily desired is Hindi.3. ?You do not have to have a library science degree. ?(A lot of Area Studies ?librarians have segued from other backgrounds.) If anyone wants to discuss the advantages or otherwise of USG or LOC employment they are welcome to contact me privately. Best wishes, Allen Thrasher Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: VA150276LibrarianReferenceLibrarianPD12535VA150276FINAL.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 452016 bytes Desc: not available URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sat Apr 16 20:39:31 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 16 22:39:31 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: New publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From Steve Farner [indo-Eurasian] Article in Science magazine on the Dutch push to make ALL scientific literature ?open access? by 2020. *"E.U. urged to free all scientific papers by 2020"* Science magazine, which is notorious for keeping nearly everything behind paywalls, didn?t have the nerve to do it in this case, for obvious reasons. Full article here: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/04/eu-urged-free-all-scientific-papers-2020 The reader comments at the end are worth seeing too. Steve Artur -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 03:22:37 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 16 21:22:37 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] IAST or ISO 15919 input tools for Windows 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: see http://bombay.indology.info for John Smith's utilities for doing exactly this. Best, Dominik Wujastyk ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org Sun Apr 17 03:42:18 2016 From: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org (Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 16 15:42:18 +1200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] IAST or ISO 15919 input tools for Windows 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5713061A.4010407@indica-et-buddhica.org> Dear Camillo, On 2016-04-16 03:46, C.A. Formigatti wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I would like to install on a Windows 7 machine a keyboard layout to > input Sanskrit in IAST or ISO 15919 system-wide--and not only in > Word. I know that many threads in this list have been dedicated to > this topic, but I cannot find them anymore. I haven't been able to > find a good solution so far, do you have any suggestion? > > Best wishes, > > Camillo Formigatti For a long time, when I was using Emacs for almost everything, I used to use the attached: utf-8-input.el. I'm now having to use a whole variety of applications so have opted for Keyman with the EuroLatin Keyboard: http://keyman.com/ (And just read that SIL have taken over Keyman from Tavultesoft too.) Best, R -- Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica Littledene Bay Road Oxford 7430 NZ M: +64-21-064-0216 T: +64-3-312-1699 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: utf-8-input.el URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 473 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 05:18:04 2016 From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 16 10:48:04 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Descriptive Catalogue of the Samskrit Manuscripts in Banaras Hindu University. Message-ID: Dear All, I have been looking for a PDF of the following catalogue of the Sanskrit Mss kept in BHU etc. Is there is a PDF available? I failed to locate one or is it that I am simply missing something out there. *Trip??h?, Ram? ?a?kar. (1971) Descriptive Catalogue of the Samskrit Manuscripts in Gaekwada Library, Bh?rat Kal? Bhavana Library and Samskrit Mah?-Vidy?laya Library, Banaras Hindu University. Banaras Hindu University Samskrit Series 6. Varanasi: Banaras Hindu University. * I would highly appreciate if someone can share a PDF with me. Thanks very much in advance. Best wishes. Mrinal Kaul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sshanthamurthy at yahoo.com Sun Apr 17 10:56:14 2016 From: sshanthamurthy at yahoo.com (shubha shanthamurthy) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 16 10:56:14 +0000 Subject: M Liceria, Social and Economic History of Karnataka, c. 1972 In-Reply-To: <2035180708.1558123.1460890574600.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2035180708.1558123.1460890574600.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Dear list members, Does anyone happen to have a copy of "Social and Economic History of Karnataka" by M Liceria? ?It was submitted as a PhD thesis at Patna University in 1972, but not sure if it was ever published. Any suggestions about how to get hold of this would be most welcome! ThanksShubha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Sun Apr 17 11:02:44 2016 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 16 13:02:44 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two retired scholars have uploaded their publications In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <18939EB5-7219-4066-B274-CD3F0008517D@uclouvain.be> Dear List, I add to the forwarded information from the Bhakta Winand Callewaert (Leuven University), whose publications listen below are now on https://kuleuven.academia.edu/WinandCallewaert the fact that the Mimamsaka Jean-Marie Verpoorten has done the same recently, on the e-repository of the University of Li?ge: https://orbi.ulg.ac.be/browse?type=author&value=Verpoorten%2C+Jean-marie+p002598 Best wishes, Christophe Vielle Le 16 avr. 2016 ? 10:45, Winand Callewaert a ?crit : > Students and scholars of Bhakti born in the last decennium of the 20th century > most probably do not have easy access to the hard copy of some of my text editions > (for the complete list see http://www.arts.kuleuven.be/caies/wcal). > > I thought it worth my while to revise twelve of these books and prepare a pdf-file for academia.edu. > (You may also find some of my texts in the Lausanne Digital Databank of Bhakti). > > I am very grateful to my colleague Prof. Mertens for his help to have all this uploaded to academia > and to Mrs. Monique Van Damme for the hours she put in to prepare the pdf-files. > > If you google for Winand Callewaert academia, you will find > Winand Callewaert KULeuven University of Leuven Academia. > > Scroll down and click on the icon for any of the following books: > > > Warm regards > > Winand > > > Em. Prof. Dr Winand M. Callewaert > Faculty of Arts > Blijde Inkomststraat 21, 3318 > 3000 Leuven, Belgium > > http://www.arts.kuleuven.be/caies/wcal > > > > 1. The Sarv??g? of the D?d?panth? Rajab, > Orientalia Lovaniensia Analecta 4, Leuven, 1978; 446 pp.; D /1977/2574/1; > ISBN 90 70192 01 2 > > D?d? is one of the most important mystic-reformers in 16th century Rajasthan. > One of his main disciples, Rajab, not only compiled his own V???, but also a phenomenal > Sarv??g?. This study gives > 1. An introduction about the D?d?pantha and the sources about it, > 2. A description of the manuscripts of the Sarv??g?, > 3. A critical edition of selected s?kh?-s of Rajab, and > 4. An English translation of these s?kh?-s, > 5. A description of the teachings of Rajab, followed by an extensive glossary, and the > detailed contents of the Rajab Sarv??g?. > > 2. Ed., Early Hindi devotional literature in current research, > Orientalia Lovaniensia Analecta 8, Leuven, 1980; 243 pp.; D/1979/2574/1; > ISBN 90 70192 02 0 > > When in 1979 the first Bhakti Conference was organized in Leuven, fourteen participants > from all over the world attended. Eventually, the proceedings of this meeting were > published, along with the reports of a total of 39 scholars then doing research in the > field of Bhakti. This conference eventually became an ever-expanding meeting every > three years (Bonn, Heidelberg, Leiden, Cambridge, Paris, Seattle, Venice, > Leuven, Heidelberg, Miercurea Ciuc, Shimla, and most recently Lausanne, 2015). > > > > > 3. Bhagavadg?t?nuv?da. A Study in Transcultural Translation; with Sh?l?nanda Hemr?j, > Satya Bharati Publ., Ranchi, 1983; 399 pp. > In 1983 we wrote in the Preface: > ?Available in about 75 different languages and in nearly 2,000 different translations, > the Bhagavad G?t? is, after the Bible, probably the most translated (religious) work in > world literature. Notwithstanding this popularity of the G?t? in India and abroad, no scientific and detailed survey has been made of the existing translations. > This study gives > 1. An introduction about G?t? and Bible translations, > 2. An introduction about the original text of the G?t?, > 3. Notes about a dynamic equivalence translation, > 4. Notes about commentaries on the G?t?, > 5. A survey of translations into Indian languages, > 6. A survey of translations into English, > 7. A survey of translations into other languages, and > 8. An extensive bibliography. > 5. The Hind? biography of D?d? Day?l, > Delhi , Motilal Banarsidass, 1988; 178 pp.; ISBN 81-208-0490-2 > > Around 1620 Jan Gop?l wrote the D?d? Janma L?l?, but within one generation of > scribal transmission his text was extensively changed with corrections and > interpolations. This study gives a critical edition of the text, based on seven > manuscripts, an English translation and a word-index. > > 6. The Hind? songs of N?mdev, > with Mukund Lath; Orientalia Lovaniensia Analecta 29, Leuven, 1989; 432 pp.; > D/1989/0602/13; ISBN 90-6831-107-7; also Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi. > > As N?mdev is one of the earliest Bhakti saints in Maharasthra, and extensively quoted > in the ?di-granth, we thought it essential that a critical edition of the Hindi songs of > N?mdev should be prepared, based on the earliest available manuscript material. > In this study we give > 1. An introduction about the sources regarding N?mdev: Do we know N?mdev?, > 2. A study of the manuscripts and of the singers' variants in them, > 3. A study of the relation between the manuscripts making use of computer counts, > 4. An English translation of a selection of songs, > 5. A critical edition of the songs. With appendices. > > > > > > 8. The life and works of Raid?s, with P. Friedlander, > Manohar Book Publications, Delhi, 1992; 335 pp.; > ISBN 81-7304-032-X > > As a prominent saint quoted in the Pa?ca-v??? and in the ?di-granth, > Raid?s had so far never been critically edited. > This study discusses in detail > 1. The life of Raid?s, > 2. Sources for the v??? of Raid?s, > 3. The original v??? of Raid?s, > 4. The teachings of Raid?s, > 5. Translation of the v??? of Raid?s, > 6. Critical edition, > 7. Word-indexes and Bibliography. > > 9. The Sarv??g? of Gop?l D?s, > Manohar Book Publications, Delhi , 1993; 520 pp.; ISBN 81-7304-045-1 > > Like the Sarv??g? compiled by D?d??s disciple Rajab, the Sarv??g? of Gopald?s is a > fascinating product of a 17th century extraordinary memory, as well as a marvelous > selection of popular Bhakti literature of the period. The size of the manuscript is > baffling: 364 folios (or 1.6 Mbyte), with as many as 1,669 pad-s and 6,568 s?kh?-s of 138 > identified Bhakta-s. It is not only amazing that Gopald?s could store such an amount > of literature in his memory. How could he make a selection and classify it according to > 126 different themes, using existing repertoires that were classified according to r?g, > and not according to theme? > In this study I give, > Introduction (pp. 5-118): > 1. The structure of the Sarv??g? of Gopald?s, > 2. the List of identified Bhakta-s, > 3. Kab?r in the Sarv??g? of Gopald?s, > 4. D?d? in the Sarv??g? of Gopald?s, > 5. A detailed table of contents. > The edition of the Sarv??g? of Gopald?s (pp. 119-520). > > > 10. According to tradition. Hagiographical writing in India , > with Rupert Snell, eds., (vol. 5 in: Khoj. A Series of Modern South Asian Studies, > eds. Monika Horstmann and Ali S. Asani), Harrassowitz, Wiesbaden, 1994; 271 pp.; > ISBN 3-447-03524-2 > > Compiled with the intention of facilitating the comparative study of hagiography in the > Indian tradition, this book brings together the research of many scholars dealing with a > wide variety of eras, regions and languages: > > W.H. McLeod, Richard K. Barz, Philip Lutgendorf, Winand M. Callewaert, Simon Digby, > Phyllis Granoff, S.G. Tulpule, R.J. Zydenbos, Indira Peterson and Tony K. Stewart; > with a detailed Index. > > 12. Shr? Gur? Granth S?hib, > with complete Index, Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi, 1996; Vol. 1, 1430 pp.; vol. 2, 967 pp.; > ISBN 81-208-1384-7 (Part I); 81-208-1385-5 (Part II), 81-208-1379-0 (Set) > > The ?di Granth is not only the sacred scripture of the Sikhs and a unique document > for Bhakti literature in North-India: it is also a holy book that has an important place > in the religious literature of the world. An analysis of the structure of the ?di Granth > in no way suggests a lack of respect for the sacredness of the scripture. Human hands > and memories were indeed needed to give form to the divine inspiration. > > The standard reprints of the ?di Granth, in both Gurmukhi and Devanagari, respect > the initial layout of the first manuscript commissioned by Guru Arjan: on each page > a standardized number of lines is given, and on each line a standardized number of > words. (For this page-break, however, there is no uniformity in the different printed > editions). As a result, the structure of the hymns, the stanzas and end-rhymes cannot > easily be observed, and it is nigh impossible to make a workable word-index. In view > of a complete Index, I changed the sacred layout and reprinted the text in such a way > that the structure of each hymn is visible. Thus an easy reference system could also > be created. > In Part I, I reprint in Devanagari the complete text of the ?di Granth (1430 pp.). > In Part II, I give > a long introduction (pp. 1-205) with > 1. Contents of the ?di Granth, > 2. Structure of the ?di Granth, > 3. Glossary, > 4. First line indexes, > 5. List of titles and subtitles, > 6. Compounds hyphenated in the text, > 7. Bibliography, > followed by the complete index (pp. 1-967) (not given here in pdf). > > 13. Kurukshetra, of Ramdhari Singh Dinkar, > translated from Hindi (with Prof. Adeshwara Rao), > Heritage Publications, Visakhapatnam ,1995; viii pp. + 106 pp. > > 16. The Hagiographies of Anantad?s, > Curzon Press, London ; 414 pp.; ISBN 0-7007-1331-X > Sometime before or around 1600 AD an ascetic of the R?m?nanda order in Rajasthan > felt inspired to bring together in a poetic composition the different legends he had > heard about the great Bhakta-s of his times: N?mdev, Kab?r, Raid?s, Dhan?, A?gad, > Trilochan and P?p?. More famous Bhakta-s he could not have chosen, and four of > them (Kab?r, Dhan?, P?p? and Raid?s), he says, were initiated by R?m?nanda. > The association with R?m?nanda was repeated by N?bh? and R?ghavad?s in their > Bhaktam?l-s, and by later tradition, but doubted by a.o. Parshuram Chaturvedi (1964) > and modern scholarship. > In fact, it may have been Anantad?s himself who was responsible for this association. > The travelling singers who memorized the parca?-s of Anantadas were themselves > also poets, capable of adding or changing a line or two. The result of their genius and > creativity is a headache and a challenge for the text critic who looks at manuscripts > and tries to restore what Anantad?s originally must have recited. A study of the > parca? -s of Anantad?s gives not only an insight in a very creative period of oral > transmission. These parca? -s are also like a video of late 16th century social and > religious thinking. > > After a long introduction, this study gives > a critical edition of the parca? -s, and an English translation (except for Kab?r), and > an edition of the pad-s of Dhan?, Trilochan, Pip?, Angad and of R?m?nanda, > based on the earliest manuscripts now available. > > 18. The Millenium Kab?r V?n?, A Collection of Pad-s, > (in collaboration with Swapna Sharma and Dieter Taillieu), Manohar Publications, > New Delhi, 2000, 629 pp.; ISBN 81-7304-357-4 > > When around 1500 the Moslem weaver Kab?r sang his songs in Banaras , nobody > could imagine that at the end of the 20th century he would be the most frequently > quoted bhakti saint in North-India. > Five hundred years after Kab?r was born in Banaras and after at least 80 years of > scholarship, do we have any certainty that the songs attributed to him and published > in critical and uncritical editions and translations, are by Kab?r? > I doubt it more and more. > Between Kab?r and our computer age lie 150 years of oral transmission (which never > stopped) and nearly 400 years of scribal transmission. We have no oral recordings of > Kab?r scolding his audiences and I take it for granted that he did not write down his > compositions. What we have are manuscripts in which his popular repertoire was > written down, first by traveling singers, and later, in a more respectful and > professional way, by devoted scribes. But what do we have of Kab?r in those repertoires? > > I argue that with certainty we can only say that the version of Kab?r?s song found in > the 17th century manuscripts is the version then commonly used and sung by singers. > Among the pad-s in the v??? of Kab?r we can earmark those that may have been > popular in the repertoires around 1550, that is two generations after the death of > Kab?r and one generation before the first manuscripts still preserved now were > written. > The norm is ?occurrence? in Punjab and/or Rajasthan. > When everything is said and done, one question remains: how could Kab?r become > so charismatic that many devotees, possibly during his lifetime and definitely after > his death, were happy to insert his name as bha?it? in their own compositions and let those songs circulate with his name, not their own? > What was his genius that eventually was changed into a social consciousness strongly influencing later generations? > CONTENTS > Preface > Abbreviations > ?Stemma? of the repertoires > Introduction 8 > 1 Editions of Kab?r's songs: three traditions > 1 The B?jak 11 > 2 Punjab 22 > 3 The Rajasthani or 'western' tradition 24 > 4 Translations 29 > 2 New manuscript material 34 > 3 First-line indexes > 1 Index in the order of occurrence 42 > 2 Alphabetical first-line index 116 > 3 Consecutive numbering in the M.P. Gupta edition 136 > 4 In what repertoires are the pad-s found? 150 > 5 Pad-s in the Sabh? edition, M.P. Gupta, Tiv?r? and my edition (W) 159 > 6 Pad-s in the ?di-granth, my edition (W) and the P.N. Tiv?r? edition 180 > 7 Looking at the r?g structure 192 > 8 Comparing the P.N. Tiv?r? edition and my edition (W) 196 > 9 Most popular songs of Kab?r 202 > 10 'Language' and a critical edition of Kab?r's songs 202 > Bibliography 206 > Text-edition 208-1146 > > > Em. Prof. Dr Winand M. Callewaert > Faculty of Arts > Blijde Inkomststraat 21, 3318 > 3000 Leuven, Belgium > > http://www.arts.kuleuven.be/caies/wcal ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomaskintaert at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 21:54:08 2016 From: thomaskintaert at gmail.com (Thomas Kintaert) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 16 23:54:08 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Announcing_the_=E2=80=9CDe_Nobili_Research_Library_Prize=E2=80=9D_for_2016?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, The ?De Nobili Research Library ? Association for Indology and the Study of Religion? is happy to announce its second essay prize competition on the topic ?Cultures of Knowledge in Mutual Encounter ? Scholars between India and Europe from Early Modernity to the Present?. For the eligibility requirements and further details please see the attached announcement by the Association's Chairperson, Prof. Karin Preisendanz. Best, Thomas Kintaert -- Dr. Thomas Kintaert Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, University of Vienna Uni-Campus AAKH Spitalg. 2, Hof 2.7 A-1090 Wien, Austria Tel.: +43-1-4277-43511 thomas.kintaert at univie.ac.at -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ANNOUNCING_SDN_ESSAY_PRIZE_2016.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 78826 bytes Desc: not available URL: From uskokov at uchicago.edu Tue Apr 19 01:02:10 2016 From: uskokov at uchicago.edu (Aleksandar Uskokov) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 16 20:02:10 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Trivandrum Vol.150 Message-ID: Dear colleagues, would anyone happen to have a scan of Trivandrum Sanskrit Series Volume 150, the third part of Sucaritamisra's commentary on the Slokavartika? It is not among the volumes of the series available on archive.org. All best, Aleksandar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Apr 19 02:18:25 2016 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 16 22:18:25 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Trivandrum Vol.150 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If any one wishes to download this volume, here is the WeTransfer download link for it: https://we.tl/Ez5R1x0wLP I sent this volume to Aleksander a few minutes ago, and the link will stay alive till April 26, according to the communication from WeTransfer. The volume is indeed no. 150 of the TSS, and not 151 as recorded on Worldcat. Madhav Deshpande On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:02 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > would anyone happen to have a scan of Trivandrum Sanskrit Series Volume > 150, the third part of Sucaritamisra's commentary on the Slokavartika? It > is not among the volumes of the series available on archive.org. > > All best, > Aleksandar > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uskokov at uchicago.edu Tue Apr 19 02:19:27 2016 From: uskokov at uchicago.edu (Aleksandar Uskokov) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 16 21:19:27 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Trivandrum Vol.150 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The list is a true kamadhenu. Many thanks to Professor Deshpande! Aleksandar On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 8:02 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > would anyone happen to have a scan of Trivandrum Sanskrit Series Volume > 150, the third part of Sucaritamisra's commentary on the Slokavartika? It > is not among the volumes of the series available on archive.org. > > All best, > Aleksandar > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From caf57 at cam.ac.uk Tue Apr 19 08:56:04 2016 From: caf57 at cam.ac.uk (C.A. Formigatti) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 16 09:56:04 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] IAST or ISO 15919 input tools for Windows 7 Message-ID: <1788adf244856af4338cecab1cdcdda5@cam.ac.uk> Many thanks to Martin Gluckman, Dominik Wujastyk, Richard Mahoney and Ofer Peres for the help. From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 09:42:09 2016 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 16 11:42:09 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (senza oggetto) Message-ID: <5715fd7a.c711c30a.86149.3b80@mx.google.com> Dear Indologists, I remember there is a publication about the connection of Vishnu's avataras and the tribal/non Aryan world, but I'm not able to find it again and I forget title and author. Maybe someone could help me to find it out? I wish I have not just dreamt it! Best, Paolo Paolo E. Rosati Oriental Archaeologist PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa Section: South Asia Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO) 'Sapienza' University of Rome paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Mobile: (+39) 3387383472 Skype: paoloe.rosati -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Tue Apr 19 10:00:23 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 16 12:00:23 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (senza oggetto) In-Reply-To: <5715fd7a.c711c30a.86149.3b80@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Dear Paolo, Possibly: Damodar D. Kosambi,* The Autochthonous Element in the Mah**?**bh**?**rata*, w: Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 84, No. 1 (Jan.-Mar.), 1984, pp. 31?44 [Am sending the paper to your private address] Best, Artur 2016-04-19 11:42 GMT+02:00 Paolo Eugenio Rosati : > Dear Indologists, > > I remember there is a publication about the connection of Vishnu's > avataras and the tribal/non Aryan world, but I'm not able to find it again > and I forget title and author. Maybe someone could help me to find it out? > > I wish I have not just dreamt it! > > Best, > Paolo > > > > Paolo E. Rosati > Oriental Archaeologist > PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa > Section: South Asia > Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO) > 'Sapienza' University of Rome > > paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Mobile: (+39) 3387383472 > Skype: paoloe.rosati > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 10:29:33 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 16 20:29:33 +1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: #yogabodyANU2016 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Friends, I'd like to bring your attention to a 2-day symposium I am co-organising. If you happen to be in Australia next month, and can find your way to Canberra, we are facilitating the following symposium: http://chl.anu.edu.au/news-events/events/658/yoga-and-body-past-and-present-symposium?#tab I hope to see you here. If you can't make it, then you can follow us on twitter - #yogabodyANU2016 All the best, Patrick McCartney PhD Candidate School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile * - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJy_Oqnqag8 http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be https://youtu.be/7tAp8m9RHPU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruno.loturco at uniroma1.it Tue Apr 19 14:56:58 2016 From: bruno.loturco at uniroma1.it (Bruno Lo Turco) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 16 16:56:58 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Alamk=C4=81ras_in_the_Buddhacarita?= Message-ID: Dear Members of the List, I am looking for a pdf of the article by Sarojini Bhuyan ?The Alamk?ras employed in the Buddhacarita?, in: *Jn?n?mrtam: Professor A. C. Swain Felicitation Volume*, ed. by U. N. Dhal and R. M. Dash, Bhubaneswar, Uktal University, pp. 54- 61. If anyone could help, I would appreciate it. Bruno Lo Turco Sapienza Universit? di Roma -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dxs163 at case.edu Tue Apr 19 20:45:31 2016 From: dxs163 at case.edu (Deepak Sarma) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 16 16:45:31 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] copy of D. Seyfort Ruegg "Does the Madhyamika Have a Thesis and Philosophical Position?" Message-ID: <62CF002F-DAFB-4886-A6B3-C1581AB010E1@case.edu> All: My students are looking for a copy of D. Seyfort Ruegg "Does the Madhyamika Have a Thesis and Philosophical Position?? found in Buddhist logic and epistemology : studies in the Buddhist analysis of inference and language / edited by Bimal Krishna Matilal and Robert D. Evans we do not have it in my library and, while I can ILL the book, it will take 4 days for it to come ?too late for my students papers. Does anyone have a copy? thanks in advance for y our help, Deepak Dr. Deepak Sarma Professor of Religious Studies Acting Chair of the Department of Religious Studies Professor of Bioethics (secondary appointment) School of Medicine, Case Western Reserve University Curatorial Consultant, Department of Asian Art Cleveland Museum of Art Mailing Address: Department of Religious Studies Tomlinson Hall 2121 MLK Jr. Drive Case Western Reserve University Cleveland, OH 44106-7112 office: 216-368-4790 deepak.sarma at case.edu deepaksarma.com From dnreigle at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 22:51:30 2016 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 16 16:51:30 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] copy of D. Seyfort Ruegg "Does the Madhyamika Have a Thesis and Philosophical Position?" In-Reply-To: <62CF002F-DAFB-4886-A6B3-C1581AB010E1@case.edu> Message-ID: Dear Deepak and all, I have made a scan of this article by D. Seyfort Ruegg, and will try to attach it here, in case others may also want it. If this does not work, just email me off-list for it. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 2:45 PM, Deepak Sarma wrote: > All: > My students are looking for a copy of > > > D. Seyfort Ruegg "Does the Madhyamika Have a Thesis and Philosophical > Position?? found in > > Buddhist logic and epistemology : studies in the Buddhist analysis of > inference and language / edited by Bimal Krishna Matilal and Robert D. Evans > > we do not have it in my library and, while I can ILL the book, it will > take 4 days for it to come ?too late for my students papers. Does anyone > have a copy? > > > thanks in advance for y our help, > > Deepak > > > Dr. Deepak Sarma > > Professor of Religious Studies > Acting Chair of the Department of Religious Studies > > Professor of Bioethics (secondary appointment) > School of Medicine, Case Western Reserve University > > > Curatorial Consultant, Department of Asian Art > Cleveland Museum of Art > > Mailing Address: > Department of Religious Studies > Tomlinson Hall > 2121 MLK Jr. Drive > Case Western Reserve University > Cleveland, OH 44106-7112 > > office: 216-368-4790 > deepak.sarma at case.edu > > deepaksarma.com > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MadhyamikaDoes...HaveaThesisSeyfortRuegg1986.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 932172 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rpjain1903 at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 03:42:57 2016 From: rpjain1903 at gmail.com (R P Jain) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 16 09:12:57 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] copy of D. Seyfort Ruegg "Does the Madhyamika Have a Thesis and Philosophical Position?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <693C42FB-7EC0-4923-8AD9-4BDC3362A6CE@gmail.com> THE BOOK IS AVAILABLE WITH US.IT IS PUBLISHED IN INDIA.VISIT mlbd at mlbd.com TO ORDER. rajeev Sent from my iPhone > On 20-Apr-2016, at 4:21 AM, David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > > Dear Deepak and all, > > I have made a scan of this article by D. Seyfort Ruegg, and will try to attach it here, in case others may also want it. If this does not work, just email me off-list for it. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 2:45 PM, Deepak Sarma wrote: >> All: >> My students are looking for a copy of >> >> >> D. Seyfort Ruegg "Does the Madhyamika Have a Thesis and Philosophical Position?? found in >> >> Buddhist logic and epistemology : studies in the Buddhist analysis of inference and language / edited by Bimal Krishna Matilal and Robert D. Evans >> >> we do not have it in my library and, while I can ILL the book, it will take 4 days for it to come ?too late for my students papers. Does anyone have a copy? >> >> >> thanks in advance for y our help, >> >> Deepak >> >> >> Dr. Deepak Sarma >> >> Professor of Religious Studies >> Acting Chair of the Department of Religious Studies >> >> Professor of Bioethics (secondary appointment) >> School of Medicine, Case Western Reserve University >> >> >> Curatorial Consultant, Department of Asian Art >> Cleveland Museum of Art >> >> Mailing Address: >> Department of Religious Studies >> Tomlinson Hall >> 2121 MLK Jr. Drive >> Case Western Reserve University >> Cleveland, OH 44106-7112 >> >> office: 216-368-4790 >> deepak.sarma at case.edu >> >> deepaksarma.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 21:57:49 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 16 15:57:49 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] ANU Asian languages staff restored to their appointments Message-ID: Good news for Indology at Canberra: Canberra Times, April 19 2016: The Australian National University has backed down on its plans to downgrade its Asian language academics to fixed contracts following widespread community consultation and national condemnation. The university issued its final proposal for changes to the School of Culture, History and Languages on Monday afternoon after a fraught consultation process which received 97 submissions as well as the National Tertiary Education Union notifying a formal dispute over parts of the proposal. While the university has retained a plan to axe up to 15 academic positions, it has stepped back from its plan to downgrade six language positions to three-year contracts. In its 34-page document, the university has agreed to treat the old language subsidy as a strategic investment. This means that academics teaching Sanskrit, Hindi, Thai and Vietnamese who were to be placed onto three-year contracts will now be restored to continuing status and the two fixed-term positions in Burmese and Classical Chinese will be made continuing. ... Meanwhile, award-winning international Sanskrit expert McComas Taylor welcomed the changes. "My colleagues and I are delighted that ANU has publicly committed to supporting Asian languages in the long term. We are looking forward to working with ANU management to really develop our role as the national Asian language provider for Australia and beyond, and we want to strengthen the university's excellent reputation. Of course our relief is tempered by concern about potential cuts to other areas." Professor Taylor was considering his future at the ANU under the previous plan to place him and others on fixed-term contracts, saying it would irreparably damage the university's ability to carry out its national functions of engaging in the region. -- Full text at: - http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/anu-asian-languages-staff-restored-to-their-appointments-20160418-go9j4e.html -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk* Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity Department of History and Classics University of Alberta, Canada -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 02:45:51 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 16 22:45:51 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Daksinamurtistotram translation by Mahadeva Sastri Message-ID: Dear list members, Does anyone have a pdf of the english translation by Alladi Mahadeva Sastri of "Dakshinamurti Stotra of Sri Sankaracharya and Dakshinamurti Upanishad with Sri Sureswaracharya's Manasollasa and Pranava Vartika" There is a text version typed out by someone at sacred-texts.com but I need a pdf of the printed edition. Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Apr 21 03:03:19 2016 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 16 23:03:19 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Daksinamurtistotram translation by Mahadeva Sastri In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Harry, I have a Sanskrit edition of these texts by Alladi Mahadeva Shastri, but not the translation volume that you are referring to. Madhav Deshpande On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 10:45 PM, Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > Does anyone have a pdf of the english translation by Alladi Mahadeva > Sastri of "Dakshinamurti Stotra of Sri Sankaracharya and Dakshinamurti > Upanishad with Sri Sureswaracharya's Manasollasa and Pranava Vartika" > > There is a text version typed out by someone at sacred-texts.com but I > need a pdf of the printed edition. > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 06:25:16 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 16 11:55:16 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Translations_of_Jyotsn=C4=81_commentary_on_the_Ha=E1=B9=ADhayogaprad=C4=ABpik=C4=81?= Message-ID: Dear list members I am looking for translations of the Jyotsn? commentary on the Ha?hayogaprad?pik?. I could find a Gujarati translation of the commentary on DLI ( http://www.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/421888). Are there any others? Thanks, Nity?nanda -- Nity?nanda Mi?ra -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 13:19:30 2016 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 16 07:19:30 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Translations_of_Jyotsn=C4=81_commentary_on_the_Ha=E1=B9=ADhayogaprad=C4=ABpik=C4=81?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nity?nanda, There is an English translation, although I have not seen it: A Critical Edition of Jyotsn? (Brahm?nanda's Commentary on Ha?hayogaprad?pik?), English Version, by Swami Maheshananda and Dr. B. R. Sharma. Lonavala: Kaivalyadhama, 2012. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:25 AM, Nityanand Misra wrote: > Dear list members > > I am looking for translations of the Jyotsn? commentary on the > Ha?hayogaprad?pik?. > > I could find a Gujarati translation of the commentary on DLI ( > http://www.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/421888). > > Are there any others? > > Thanks, Nity?nanda > > -- > Nity?nanda Mi?ra > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From audrey.truschke at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 16:06:05 2016 From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 16 09:06:05 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sheldon Pollock's Rasa Reader Message-ID: Dear Friends and Colleagues, Many will be thrilled to know that Sheldon Pollock's *A Rasa Reader: Classical Indian Aesthetics* is now available. To quote Robert Goldman on the work: "*A Rasa Reader* is the product of enormous erudition in both the Indian and European traditions of the philosophy and science of aesthetics, and it will make a unique and powerful contribution to scholars in several areas. No other work of which I am aware enables even the lay reader to grasp the elusive concept of *rasa*, its relationship to the psychology of emotion, and the way in which successive authors redefined the meaning and locus of the aesthetic response" *A Rasa Reader* is available at the following links: http://amzn.com/0231173903 http://cup.columbia.edu/book/a-rasa-reader/9780231173902 All the best, Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Mellon Postdoctoral Fellow Department of Religious Studies Stanford University e- mail | website -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 22:35:55 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 16 16:35:55 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Translations_of_Jyotsn=C4=81_commentary_on_the_Ha=E1=B9=ADhayogaprad=C4=ABpik=C4=81?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've bought books and PDFs from the Kaivalyadhama in Lonavala, from Europe, and it all worked fine. Payment was not hard, and the items were delivered efficiently. -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk* Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity Department of History and Classics University of Alberta, Canada On 21 April 2016 at 07:19, David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > Dear Nity?nanda, > > There is an English translation, although I have not seen it: > > A Critical Edition of Jyotsn? (Brahm?nanda's Commentary on > Ha?hayogaprad?pik?), English Version, by Swami Maheshananda and Dr. B. R. > Sharma. Lonavala: Kaivalyadhama, 2012. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:25 AM, Nityanand Misra > wrote: > >> Dear list members >> >> I am looking for translations of the Jyotsn? commentary on the >> Ha?hayogaprad?pik?. >> >> I could find a Gujarati translation of the commentary on DLI ( >> http://www.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/421888). >> >> Are there any others? >> >> Thanks, Nity?nanda >> >> -- >> Nity?nanda Mi?ra >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 01:39:14 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 16 21:39:14 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Daksinamurtistotram translation by Mahadeva Sastri In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you to Hartmut Buescher for the pdf of the english translation. Harry Spier On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 10:45 PM, Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > Does anyone have a pdf of the english translation by Alladi Mahadeva > Sastri of "Dakshinamurti Stotra of Sri Sankaracharya and Dakshinamurti > Upanishad with Sri Sureswaracharya's Manasollasa and Pranava Vartika" > > There is a text version typed out by someone at sacred-texts.com but I > need a pdf of the printed edition. > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 02:01:28 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 16 22:01:28 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article by Sheldon Pollock Message-ID: Do any list members have a pdf of the article by Sheldon Pollock Future Philology? "The fate of a soft science in a hard world", Critical Inquiry 35:931-961 Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Fri Apr 22 02:15:22 2016 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 16 19:15:22 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article by Sheldon Pollock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would like a copy also, if there is one. Thanks! Howard > On Apr 21, 2016, at 7:01 PM, Harry Spier wrote: > > Do any list members have a pdf of the article by Sheldon Pollock > Future Philology? "The fate of a soft science in a hard world", Critical Inquiry 35:931-961 > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From wbelanger at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 02:18:38 2016 From: wbelanger at gmail.com (Warner Belanger) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 16 22:18:38 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article by Sheldon Pollock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quite a few of his publications are available here: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/mesaas/faculty/directory/pollock_pub/ Warner On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:15 PM, Howard Resnick
wrote: > I would like a copy also, if there is one. > Thanks! > Howard > > > On Apr 21, 2016, at 7:01 PM, Harry Spier > wrote: > > > > Do any list members have a pdf of the article by Sheldon Pollock > > Future Philology? "The fate of a soft science in a hard world", Critical > Inquiry 35:931-961 > > > > Thanks, > > Harry Spier > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From samparkdev at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 02:21:53 2016 From: samparkdev at gmail.com (Diwakar singh) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 16 07:51:53 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article by Sheldon Pollock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kindly find the attachment Regards Diwakar k Singh University of Delhi On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Warner Belanger wrote: > Quite a few of his publications are available here: > http://www.columbia.edu/cu/mesaas/faculty/directory/pollock_pub/ > Warner > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:15 PM, Howard Resnick
wrote: > >> I would like a copy also, if there is one. >> Thanks! >> Howard >> >> > On Apr 21, 2016, at 7:01 PM, Harry Spier >> wrote: >> > >> > Do any list members have a pdf of the article by Sheldon Pollock >> > Future Philology? "The fate of a soft science in a hard world", >> Critical Inquiry 35:931-961 >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Harry Spier >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CriticalInquiryVolume35issue42009doi10.10862F599594--TheFateofDisciplinesEditedbyJamesChandlerandArnoldI.Davidson__FuturePhilology_TheFateofaSoftScienceinaHar.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 276157 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 02:37:11 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 16 22:37:11 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article by Sheldon Pollock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you to Madhav Deshpande, Adam Bowles, Warner Belanger, Diwakar Singh for sending me the article. Four copies in half an hour. This is quite an amazing list. Harry Spier On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:01 PM, Harry Spier wrote: > Do any list members have a pdf of the article by Sheldon Pollock > Future Philology? "The fate of a soft science in a hard world", Critical > Inquiry 35:931-961 > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 12:18:13 2016 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 16 14:18:13 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] new publication Message-ID: Dear Friends, Self-serving self promotion warning! Harvard Oriental Series 81Materials Toward the Study of Vasubandhu?s *Vi??ik?* (I)Sanskrit and Tibetan Critical Editions of the Verses and Autocommentary; An English Translation and Annotations HARDCOVER $30.00 ? ?22.95 ? ?27.00 ISBN 9780674970670 The blurb: The ?Twenty Verses on Manifestation-Only? of the Indian Buddhist philosopher Vasubandhu (c. 350?430?), his *Vi???k?*, is one of the most important treatises of the Yog?c?ra school. Accompanied by the author?s own commentary, the text lays out a vision of a ?Buddhist Idealism? in which even one?s experience of the sufferings of hell is revealed to be nothing other than the results of working out one?s karma. Later scholars commented on the work a number of times, in its original Sanskrit, in Tibetan translation, and in three Chinese versions. This book presents an edition and translation of the Sanskrit text of the core verses, alongside the original author?s commentary, based directly on the manuscript evidence. This is accompanied by an edition of the canonical translations of these texts found in the Tibetan Tanjurs, as well as a ?draft translation? of the verses in Tibetan, found in a manuscript from Dunhuang. This publication therefore provides the most reliable and comprehensive philological accounting to date for this fundamental work. The website (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674970670) says August, but it's published now. very best, Jonathan -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 12:53:05 2016 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 16 06:53:05 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] new publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jonathan, Many thanks for letting us know about this important publication. I did not even know that it was coming. We have long needed a critical edition of this text. Amazon is also still showing August for publication date. But you are saying that it is now out and can now be obtained from Harvard University Press. Great! Does the "(I)" after the title mean that you are preparing a second volume? If so, what will it contain? Thanks. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Self-serving self promotion warning! > > Harvard Oriental Series 81Materials Toward the Study of Vasubandhu?s > *Vi??ik?* (I)Sanskrit and Tibetan Critical Editions of the Verses and > Autocommentary; An English Translation and Annotations > > HARDCOVER > > $30.00 ? ?22.95 ? ?27.00 > > ISBN 9780674970670 > > > The blurb: The ?Twenty Verses on Manifestation-Only? of the Indian > Buddhist philosopher Vasubandhu (c. 350?430?), his *Vi???k?*, is one of > the most important treatises of the Yog?c?ra school. Accompanied by the > author?s own commentary, the text lays out a vision of a ?Buddhist > Idealism? in which even one?s experience of the sufferings of hell is > revealed to be nothing other than the results of working out one?s karma. > Later scholars commented on the work a number of times, in its original > Sanskrit, in Tibetan translation, and in three Chinese versions. > > This book presents an edition and translation of the Sanskrit text of the > core verses, alongside the original author?s commentary, based directly on > the manuscript evidence. This is accompanied by an edition of the canonical > translations of these texts found in the Tibetan Tanjurs, as well as a > ?draft translation? of the verses in Tibetan, found in a manuscript from > Dunhuang. This publication therefore provides the most reliable and > comprehensive philological accounting to date for this fundamental work. > > > The website (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674970670) > says August, but it's published now. > > > very best, Jonathan > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 13:08:54 2016 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 16 15:08:54 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] new publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: welll... In this volume I dealt only with the Sanskrit and Tibetan, no Chinese, and no treatment of the commentaries. Whether I have the courage to deal with the former time will tell, but it will take a team of specialists to deal with the commentaries, which are, predictably I would say, rather more complicated, doctrinally, than Vasubandhu's m?la. I didn't try to order the book, but copies were sent to me, which, empiricist that I am, convinces me that they exist :) best, jonathan On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 2:53 PM, David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > Dear Jonathan, > > Many thanks for letting us know about this important publication. I did > not even know that it was coming. We have long needed a critical edition of > this text. Amazon is also still showing August for publication date. But > you are saying that it is now out and can now be obtained from Harvard > University Press. Great! > > Does the "(I)" after the title mean that you are preparing a second > volume? If so, what will it contain? Thanks. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > >> Dear Friends, >> >> Self-serving self promotion warning! >> >> Harvard Oriental Series 81Materials Toward the Study of Vasubandhu?s >> *Vi??ik?* (I)Sanskrit and Tibetan Critical Editions of the Verses and >> Autocommentary; An English Translation and Annotations >> >> HARDCOVER >> >> $30.00 ? ?22.95 ? ?27.00 >> >> ISBN 9780674970670 >> >> >> The blurb: The ?Twenty Verses on Manifestation-Only? of the Indian >> Buddhist philosopher Vasubandhu (c. 350?430?), his *Vi???k?*, is one of >> the most important treatises of the Yog?c?ra school. Accompanied by the >> author?s own commentary, the text lays out a vision of a ?Buddhist >> Idealism? in which even one?s experience of the sufferings of hell is >> revealed to be nothing other than the results of working out one?s karma. >> Later scholars commented on the work a number of times, in its original >> Sanskrit, in Tibetan translation, and in three Chinese versions. >> >> This book presents an edition and translation of the Sanskrit text of the >> core verses, alongside the original author?s commentary, based directly on >> the manuscript evidence. This is accompanied by an edition of the canonical >> translations of these texts found in the Tibetan Tanjurs, as well as a >> ?draft translation? of the verses in Tibetan, found in a manuscript from >> Dunhuang. This publication therefore provides the most reliable and >> comprehensive philological accounting to date for this fundamental work. >> >> >> The website (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674970670) >> says August, but it's published now. >> >> >> very best, Jonathan >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de Fri Apr 22 13:38:00 2016 From: mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Mehner, Maximilian | GRETIL) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 16 13:38:00 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #472 Message-ID: GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Samantapasadika, Vol. V-VII: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/#Samantp For any questions and suggestions as well as for contributing texts please feel free to contact. __________________________________________________________________________ GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From witzel at fas.harvard.edu Fri Apr 22 14:20:55 2016 From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Witzel, Michael) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 16 14:20:55 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] new publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, past experience tells that HUP has its own sweet rules (though we do all the work, from writing to layout; they just sell our HOS books). The books have arrived by UPS yesterday, that means also at the depository of HUP (Triliteral). But they may go on sale only by the official date. Just try to (pre-)order. (I will also ask them) If you BADLY need a copy before that, let me know privately. Best wishes & enjoy, Michael Witzel (ed.) On Apr 22, 2016, at 8:53 AM, David and Nancy Reigle > wrote: Dear Jonathan, Many thanks for letting us know about this important publication. I did not even know that it was coming. We have long needed a critical edition of this text. Amazon is also still showing August for publication date. But you are saying that it is now out and can now be obtained from Harvard University Press. Great! Does the "(I)" after the title mean that you are preparing a second volume? If so, what will it contain? Thanks. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: Dear Friends, Self-serving self promotion warning! Harvard Oriental Series 81 Materials Toward the Study of Vasubandhu?s Vi??ik? (I) Sanskrit and Tibetan Critical Editions of the Verses and Autocommentary; An English Translation and Annotations HARDCOVER $30.00 ? ?22.95 ? ?27.00 ISBN 9780674970670 The blurb: The ?Twenty Verses on Manifestation-Only? of the Indian Buddhist philosopher Vasubandhu (c. 350?430?), his Vi???k?, is one of the most important treatises of the Yog?c?ra school. Accompanied by the author?s own commentary, the text lays out a vision of a ?Buddhist Idealism? in which even one?s experience of the sufferings of hell is revealed to be nothing other than the results of working out one?s karma. Later scholars commented on the work a number of times, in its original Sanskrit, in Tibetan translation, and in three Chinese versions. This book presents an edition and translation of the Sanskrit text of the core verses, alongside the original author?s commentary, based directly on the manuscript evidence. This is accompanied by an edition of the canonical translations of these texts found in the Tibetan Tanjurs, as well as a ?draft translation? of the verses in Tibetan, found in a manuscript from Dunhuang. This publication therefore provides the most reliable and comprehensive philological accounting to date for this fundamental work. The website (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674970670) says August, but it's published now. very best, Jonathan -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de Fri Apr 22 14:57:36 2016 From: wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de (Harald Wiese) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 16 16:57:36 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Apararka's Commentary on Yajnavalkya Message-ID: <571A3BE0.5050805@wifa.uni-leipzig.de> Dear list members, could anybody help me with a copy of Apararka's Commentary on Yajnavalkya, please? Yours sincerely Harald Wiese University of Leipzig wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de From wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de Fri Apr 22 18:39:33 2016 From: wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de (wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 16 20:39:33 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Apararka's Commentary on Yajnavalkya (Harald Wiese) Message-ID: <20160422203933.Horde.rK-gW1aXvXmlgqRJwPoHQQ4@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Dear list members, Thank you for your help !!! Yours Harald From gthomgt at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 19:22:21 2016 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 16 15:22:21 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] new publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear List, While Jonathan refers to his email as 'self-serving,' I prefer to view it as serving the list. It is very helpful to learn of the publication on all new Indological books. I intend to go to my local bookstore tomorrow to order a few of them [though not those from Brill!]. I thank all those who have passed on information on their new books. I encourage other authors to do so as well. George Thompson On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 10:20 AM, Witzel, Michael wrote: > Well, past experience tells that HUP has its own sweet rules (though we do > all the work, from writing to layout; they just sell our HOS books). > > The books have arrived by UPS yesterday, that means also at the depository > of HUP (Triliteral). > But they may go on sale only by the official date. Just try to > (pre-)order. (I will also ask them) > > If you BADLY need a copy before that, let me know privately. > > Best wishes & enjoy, > > Michael Witzel (ed.) > > > On Apr 22, 2016, at 8:53 AM, David and Nancy Reigle > wrote: > > Dear Jonathan, > > Many thanks for letting us know about this important publication. I did > not even know that it was coming. We have long needed a critical edition of > this text. Amazon is also still showing August for publication date. But > you are saying that it is now out and can now be obtained from Harvard > University Press. Great! > > Does the "(I)" after the title mean that you are preparing a second > volume? If so, what will it contain? Thanks. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > >> Dear Friends, >> >> Self-serving self promotion warning! >> >> Harvard Oriental Series 81 Materials Toward the Study of Vasubandhu?s >> *Vi??ik?* (I) Sanskrit and Tibetan Critical Editions of the Verses and >> Autocommentary; An English Translation and Annotations >> HARDCOVER >> $30.00 ? ?22.95 ? ?27.00 >> ISBN 9780674970670 >> >> The blurb: The ?Twenty Verses on Manifestation-Only? of the Indian >> Buddhist philosopher Vasubandhu (c. 350?430?), his *Vi???k?*, is one of >> the most important treatises of the Yog?c?ra school. Accompanied by the >> author?s own commentary, the text lays out a vision of a ?Buddhist >> Idealism? in which even one?s experience of the sufferings of hell is >> revealed to be nothing other than the results of working out one?s karma. >> Later scholars commented on the work a number of times, in its original >> Sanskrit, in Tibetan translation, and in three Chinese versions. >> >> This book presents an edition and translation of the Sanskrit text of the >> core verses, alongside the original author?s commentary, based directly on >> the manuscript evidence. This is accompanied by an edition of the canonical >> translations of these texts found in the Tibetan Tanjurs, as well as a >> ?draft translation? of the verses in Tibetan, found in a manuscript from >> Dunhuang. This publication therefore provides the most reliable and >> comprehensive philological accounting to date for this fundamental work. >> >> The website (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674970670) >> says August, but it's published now. >> >> very best, Jonathan >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 21:34:27 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 16 15:34:27 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Repression of Religious Studies / Wendy Doniger, in the Chronicle of Higher Ed. for 20 April 2016 Message-ID: *The Chronicle of Higher Education* *The Repression of Religious Studies Wendy Doniger20 April 2016* In 2015, Harvard University Press began to publish the Murty Classical Library of India, a series of editions and translations of texts in a wide range of Indian languages, under the direction of Sheldon Pollock, professor of South Asian studies at Columbia University. In February, 2016, 132 academics in India petitioned to have Pollock removed as general editor. They were raising their voices not as subject experts ? many were scientists or doctors lacking competence to judge humanistic scholarship ? but as Hindus. Why did Hindus in India care what a publisher in Massachusetts was doing? Because Hindus in America cared, and they had sent word to India to raise the alarm there, too. ... Read the full article here: - http://chronicle.com/article/The-Repression-of-Religious/236166 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 21:40:20 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 16 15:40:20 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Repression of Religious Studies / Wendy Doniger, in the Chronicle of Higher Ed. for 20 April 2016 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: doniger-repression.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 745091 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 03:20:37 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 16 08:50:37 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Repression of Religious Studies / Wendy Doniger, in the Chronicle of Higher Ed. for 20 April 2016 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another one-sided article on the same issue (*pi??ape?a?a*, to use a Sanskrit word). In the discussion of protests against the book ?The Hindus: An Alternative History?, Doniger does not mention the book written in response to her book by Vishal Agarwal. The book is available at http://www.amazon.com/dp/1505885590/. Doniger says ?many were scientists or doctors lacking competence to judge humanistic scholarship? but does not say that many were also exemplary Sanskrit scholars in India. This is almost d?j? vu of Ananya Vajapeyi?s factually incorrect statement ?almost none of the petition?s 132 principal sponsors ? are experts of Sanskrit, other classical languages, literature, history or the humanities, or indeed scholars at all? in The Hindu not too long ago. Are authors like Doniger and Vajapeyi not aware of Sanskrit studies and Sanskrit scholars in India? Dilip Chakrabarti (Cambridge) says in his praise for Rajiv Malhotra's *The Battle for Sanskrit *that there is a ?deplorable unwillingness among Western scholars to take note of the viewpoints of an increasing number of Indian professionals.? This can perhaps be explained by ?humanistic scholars? not seeing ?doctors? and ?scientists? as equals; never mind the fact that even a humanistic scholar like Doniger can make mistakes, e.g. contrasting treatment of the K?kabhu?u??i in RCM with treatment of the Jayanta in VR ignoring that the same treatment of Jayanta in in the RCM also. But what explains the fact that these Sanskrit scholars in the West are unaware of Sanskrit scholarship and Sanskrit scholars in India? On 23 April 2016 at 03:10, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > ? > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nity?nanda Mi?ra http://nmisra.googlepages.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 03:28:59 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 16 08:58:59 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Translations_of_Jyotsn=C4=81_commentary_on_the_Ha=E1=B9=ADhayogaprad=C4=ABpik=C4=81?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to Prof. Wujastyk, Mr. (Dr.?) Reigle, and Mr. Powell for the responses. I have got in touch with Kaivalyadhama and will be getting the books soon. The English translation of Srinivasa Iyangar has comments, but it not a complete or exact translation of the Jyotsn?. For example, the comments on the first verse do not discuss the lack of *ya? *in the usage *?r??din?th?ya*, which the Jyotsn? does. On 22 April 2016 at 04:05, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > I've bought books and PDFs from the Kaivalyadhama in Lonavala, from > Europe, and it all worked fine. Payment was not hard, and the items were > delivered efficiently. > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk* > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > Department of History and Classics > > University of Alberta, Canada > > On 21 April 2016 at 07:19, David and Nancy Reigle > wrote: > >> Dear Nity?nanda, >> >> There is an English translation, although I have not seen it: >> >> A Critical Edition of Jyotsn? (Brahm?nanda's Commentary on >> Ha?hayogaprad?pik?), English Version, by Swami Maheshananda and Dr. B. R. >> Sharma. Lonavala: Kaivalyadhama, 2012. >> >> Best regards, >> >> David Reigle >> Colorado, U.S.A. >> >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:25 AM, Nityanand Misra >> wrote: >> >>> Dear list members >>> >>> I am looking for translations of the Jyotsn? commentary on the >>> Ha?hayogaprad?pik?. >>> >>> I could find a Gujarati translation of the commentary on DLI ( >>> http://www.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/421888). >>> >>> Are there any others? >>> >>> Thanks, Nity?nanda >>> >>> -- >>> Nity?nanda Mi?ra >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -- Nity?nanda Mi?ra http://nmisra.googlepages.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 19:05:33 2016 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 16 21:05:33 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devibhagavatapurana Message-ID: Dear Indologists, I am not able to download a copy of this text: Srimad Devi Bhagavatam. Vijnanananda Swami (ed. & trans.). 1922. Allahabad: Panini Office. Anyone has a pdf version of it? Best, Paolo -- Paolo E. Rosati Oriental Archaeologist PhD candidate in "Civilisations of Asia & Africa" Section: South Asia Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO) 'Sapienza' University of Rome *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ * paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Mail priva di virus. www.avast.com <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 23:09:12 2016 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 16 17:09:12 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] new publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Amazing in its synchronicity, Ferenc Ruzsa has also prepared a critical edition of Vasubandhu's *Vi??ik?*, published in 2016, and has now uploaded it to Academia.edu: https://www.academia.edu/24686118/Vasubandhu_Vi%E1%B9%81%C5%9Bik%C4%81j%C3%A1nak_kritikai_kiad%C3%A1sa?campaign=upload_email Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Self-serving self promotion warning! > > Harvard Oriental Series 81Materials Toward the Study of Vasubandhu?s > *Vi??ik?* (I)Sanskrit and Tibetan Critical Editions of the Verses and > Autocommentary; An English Translation and Annotations > > HARDCOVER > > $30.00 ? ?22.95 ? ?27.00 > > ISBN 9780674970670 > > > The blurb: The ?Twenty Verses on Manifestation-Only? of the Indian > Buddhist philosopher Vasubandhu (c. 350?430?), his *Vi???k?*, is one of > the most important treatises of the Yog?c?ra school. Accompanied by the > author?s own commentary, the text lays out a vision of a ?Buddhist > Idealism? in which even one?s experience of the sufferings of hell is > revealed to be nothing other than the results of working out one?s karma. > Later scholars commented on the work a number of times, in its original > Sanskrit, in Tibetan translation, and in three Chinese versions. > > This book presents an edition and translation of the Sanskrit text of the > core verses, alongside the original author?s commentary, based directly on > the manuscript evidence. This is accompanied by an edition of the canonical > translations of these texts found in the Tibetan Tanjurs, as well as a > ?draft translation? of the verses in Tibetan, found in a manuscript from > Dunhuang. This publication therefore provides the most reliable and > comprehensive philological accounting to date for this fundamental work. > > > The website (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674970670) > says August, but it's published now. > > > very best, Jonathan > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 23:33:24 2016 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 16 17:33:24 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] new publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The last pages of the Sanskrit edition, pp. 155-157, are missing in the PDF of the full Hungarian article at the link I just sent. They are found in the separate PDF of just the Sanskrit critical edition here: https://www.academia.edu/24686326/Vasubandhus_Vi%E1%B9%81%C5%9Bik%C4%81._A_critical_edition?campaign=upload_email Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 5:09 PM, David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > Amazing in its synchronicity, Ferenc Ruzsa has also prepared a critical > edition of Vasubandhu's *Vi??ik?*, published in 2016, and has now > uploaded it to Academia.edu: > > > https://www.academia.edu/24686118/Vasubandhu_Vi%E1%B9%81%C5%9Bik%C4%81j%C3%A1nak_kritikai_kiad%C3%A1sa?campaign=upload_email > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > >> Dear Friends, >> >> Self-serving self promotion warning! >> >> Harvard Oriental Series 81Materials Toward the Study of Vasubandhu?s >> *Vi??ik?* (I)Sanskrit and Tibetan Critical Editions of the Verses and >> Autocommentary; An English Translation and Annotations >> >> HARDCOVER >> >> $30.00 ? ?22.95 ? ?27.00 >> >> ISBN 9780674970670 >> >> >> The blurb: The ?Twenty Verses on Manifestation-Only? of the Indian >> Buddhist philosopher Vasubandhu (c. 350?430?), his *Vi???k?*, is one of >> the most important treatises of the Yog?c?ra school. Accompanied by the >> author?s own commentary, the text lays out a vision of a ?Buddhist >> Idealism? in which even one?s experience of the sufferings of hell is >> revealed to be nothing other than the results of working out one?s karma. >> Later scholars commented on the work a number of times, in its original >> Sanskrit, in Tibetan translation, and in three Chinese versions. >> >> This book presents an edition and translation of the Sanskrit text of the >> core verses, alongside the original author?s commentary, based directly on >> the manuscript evidence. This is accompanied by an edition of the canonical >> translations of these texts found in the Tibetan Tanjurs, as well as a >> ?draft translation? of the verses in Tibetan, found in a manuscript from >> Dunhuang. This publication therefore provides the most reliable and >> comprehensive philological accounting to date for this fundamental work. >> >> >> The website (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674970670) >> says August, but it's published now. >> >> >> very best, Jonathan >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 00:08:31 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 16 05:38:31 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devibhagavatapurana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A reprint (1977) of Swami Vijnanananda's English translation is available on the Digitial Library of India. You may download the 126 MB PDF from here: http://dli.serc.iisc.ernet.in/handle/2015/198416 On 24 April 2016 at 00:35, Paolo Eugenio Rosati wrote: > Dear Indologists, > > I am not able to download a copy of this text: > > Srimad Devi Bhagavatam. Vijnanananda Swami (ed. & trans.). 1922. > Allahabad: Panini Office. > > Anyone has a pdf version of it? > > Best, > Paolo > > -- > Paolo E. Rosati > Oriental Archaeologist > PhD candidate in "Civilisations of Asia & Africa" > Section: South Asia > Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO) > 'Sapienza' University of Rome > *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ > * > paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Skype: paoloe.rosati > Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > > > Mail > priva di virus. www.avast.com > > <#m_-6294878818674745576_DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nity?nanda Mi?ra http://nmisra.googlepages.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sun Apr 24 15:05:18 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 16 17:05:18 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer Message-ID: In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, ? Princess Niwal Da?, As su ?n g ?b y t ?wo s ?c a ?v e ?n gers ?f? ro m Bi ?b iy?l ?V illage ?n ear A ?mb ?l?), ? Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? Thanks in advance, Artur Karp Warsaw Poland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sun Apr 24 17:13:57 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 16 19:13:57 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata Message-ID: 14.093.063a ?raddhay? paray? yas tva? tapa? carasi suvrata 14.093.063c tasm?d dev?s tav?nena pr?t? dvijavarottama 14.093.064a sarvasvam etad yasm?t te tyakta? ?uddhena cetas? 14.093.064c k?cchrak?le tata? svargo jito 'ya? tava karma?? 14.093.065a k?udh? nir?udati praj??? dharmy?? buddhi? vyapohati 14.093.065c k?udh?parigataj??no dh?ti? tyajati caiva ha 14.093.066a bubhuk??? jayate yas tu sa svarga? jayate dhruvam 14.093.066c yad? d?narucir bhavati tad? dharmo na s?dati Could someone, please, please, give me precise translation of these verses? I do not have my dictionary at hand, but need the quotation very urgently. Could someone take pity on Artur Karp from far-away Poland? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 22:16:39 2016 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 00:16:39 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devibhagavatapurana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks a lot... from the other website I had seen it, I was unable to download it. Best, Paolo On 24 April 2016 at 02:08, Nityanand Misra wrote: > A reprint (1977) of Swami Vijnanananda's English translation is available > on the Digitial Library of India. You may download the 126 MB PDF from > here: http://dli.serc.iisc.ernet.in/handle/2015/198416 > > On 24 April 2016 at 00:35, Paolo Eugenio Rosati > wrote: > >> Dear Indologists, >> >> I am not able to download a copy of this text: >> >> Srimad Devi Bhagavatam. Vijnanananda Swami (ed. & trans.). 1922. >> Allahabad: Panini Office. >> >> Anyone has a pdf version of it? >> >> Best, >> Paolo >> >> -- >> Paolo E. Rosati >> Oriental Archaeologist >> PhD candidate in "Civilisations of Asia & Africa" >> Section: South Asia >> Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO) >> 'Sapienza' University of Rome >> *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ >> * >> paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it >> paoloe.rosati at gmail.com >> Skype: paoloe.rosati >> Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 >> >> >> Mail >> priva di virus. www.avast.com >> >> <#m_-9159233991729222812_m_-6294878818674745576_DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nity?nanda Mi?ra > http://nmisra.googlepages.com > > -- Paolo E. Rosati Oriental Archaeologist PhD candidate in "Civilisations of Asia & Africa" Section: South Asia Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO) 'Sapienza' University of Rome *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ * paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 00:34:53 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 06:04:53 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kisari Mohan Ganguly has already taken pity on all of us. Copy-pasted from http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m14/m14090.htm O thou of excellent vows, thou practisest penances with great devotion. Thy gifts have, therefore, gratified the deities highly, O best of regenerate ones. Since thou hast made this gift, in a season of great difficulty, with a pure heart, thou hast, by this act of thine, conquered Heaven. Hunger destroys one's wisdom and drives off one's righteous understanding. One whose intelligence is overwhelmed by hunger casts off all fortitude. He, therefore, that conquers hunger conquers Heaven without doubt. One's righteousness is never destroyed as long as one cherishes the inclination of making gifts. 2016-04-24 22:43 GMT+05:30 Artur Karp : > 14.093.063a ?raddhay? paray? yas tva? tapa? carasi suvrata > 14.093.063c tasm?d dev?s tav?nena pr?t? dvijavarottama > 14.093.064a sarvasvam etad yasm?t te tyakta? ?uddhena cetas? > 14.093.064c k?cchrak?le tata? svargo jito 'ya? tava karma?? > 14.093.065a k?udh? nir?udati praj??? dharmy?? buddhi? vyapohati > 14.093.065c k?udh?parigataj??no dh?ti? tyajati caiva ha > 14.093.066a bubhuk??? jayate yas tu sa svarga? jayate dhruvam > 14.093.066c yad? d?narucir bhavati tad? dharmo na s?dati > > Could someone, please, please, give me precise translation of these verses? > > I do not have my dictionary at hand, but need the quotation very urgently. > Could someone take pity on > > Artur Karp > > from far-away Poland? > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nity?nanda Mi?ra http://nmisra.googlepages.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 00:40:09 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 06:10:09 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You may refer the Hindi translation by Gita Press too (see verses 88 to 92). On 25 April 2016 at 06:04, Nityanand Misra wrote: > Kisari Mohan Ganguly has already taken pity on all of us. Copy-pasted from > http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m14/m14090.htm > > O thou of excellent vows, thou practisest penances with great devotion. > Thy gifts have, therefore, gratified the deities highly, O best of > regenerate ones. > > Since thou hast made this gift, in a season of great difficulty, with a > pure heart, thou hast, by this act of thine, conquered Heaven. > > Hunger destroys one's wisdom and drives off one's righteous understanding. > One whose intelligence is overwhelmed by hunger casts off all fortitude. > > He, therefore, that conquers hunger conquers Heaven without doubt. One's > righteousness is never destroyed as long as one cherishes the inclination > of making gifts. > > > 2016-04-24 22:43 GMT+05:30 Artur Karp : > >> 14.093.063a ?raddhay? paray? yas tva? tapa? carasi suvrata >> 14.093.063c tasm?d dev?s tav?nena pr?t? dvijavarottama >> 14.093.064a sarvasvam etad yasm?t te tyakta? ?uddhena cetas? >> 14.093.064c k?cchrak?le tata? svargo jito 'ya? tava karma?? >> 14.093.065a k?udh? nir?udati praj??? dharmy?? buddhi? vyapohati >> 14.093.065c k?udh?parigataj??no dh?ti? tyajati caiva ha >> 14.093.066a bubhuk??? jayate yas tu sa svarga? jayate dhruvam >> 14.093.066c yad? d?narucir bhavati tad? dharmo na s?dati >> >> Could someone, please, please, give me precise translation of these >> verses? >> >> I do not have my dictionary at hand, but need the quotation very >> urgently. Could someone take pity on >> >> Artur Karp >> >> from far-away Poland? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nity?nanda Mi?ra > http://nmisra.googlepages.com > > -- Nity?nanda Mi?ra http://nmisra.googlepages.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MBhAsvamedhikaChapter90Verses88to92.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 81471 bytes Desc: not available URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon Apr 25 08:05:04 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 10:05:04 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Cor-respondents, what worries me in these nice English and Hindi translations is that their authors kind of omit a delicate problem - presented by the use of a *desiderative *formation from the verb bhuj - bubhuk??. Turner's CDIAL 9286 gives: "desire to eat, hunger". Might it not be, that the use of the desiderative points us not to simple "hunger"? But, perhaps, to "[uncontrolled] craving for food"? To, even, "gluttony" - as the result of that uncontrolled craving? An idea of moderation there? Popularly: emotional eating vs. mindful eating. What I feel is present there is the warning against and the recommendation not to succumb to emotions/temptations generated by the idea of food. Best, Artur 2016-04-25 2:40 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra : > You may refer the Hindi translation by Gita Press too (see verses 88 to > 92). > > On 25 April 2016 at 06:04, Nityanand Misra wrote: > >> Kisari Mohan Ganguly has already taken pity on all of us. Copy-pasted >> from http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m14/m14090.htm >> >> O thou of excellent vows, thou practisest penances with great devotion. >> Thy gifts have, therefore, gratified the deities highly, O best of >> regenerate ones. >> >> Since thou hast made this gift, in a season of great difficulty, with a >> pure heart, thou hast, by this act of thine, conquered Heaven. >> >> Hunger destroys one's wisdom and drives off one's righteous >> understanding. One whose intelligence is overwhelmed by hunger casts off >> all fortitude. >> >> He, therefore, that conquers hunger conquers Heaven without doubt. One's >> righteousness is never destroyed as long as one cherishes the inclination >> of making gifts. >> >> >> 2016-04-24 22:43 GMT+05:30 Artur Karp : >> >>> 14.093.063a ?raddhay? paray? yas tva? tapa? carasi suvrata >>> 14.093.063c tasm?d dev?s tav?nena pr?t? dvijavarottama >>> 14.093.064a sarvasvam etad yasm?t te tyakta? ?uddhena cetas? >>> 14.093.064c k?cchrak?le tata? svargo jito 'ya? tava karma?? >>> 14.093.065a k?udh? nir?udati praj??? dharmy?? buddhi? vyapohati >>> 14.093.065c k?udh?parigataj??no dh?ti? tyajati caiva ha >>> 14.093.066a bubhuk??? jayate yas tu sa svarga? jayate dhruvam >>> 14.093.066c yad? d?narucir bhavati tad? dharmo na s?dati >>> >>> Could someone, please, please, give me precise translation of these >>> verses? >>> >>> I do not have my dictionary at hand, but need the quotation very >>> urgently. Could someone take pity on >>> >>> Artur Karp >>> >>> from far-away Poland? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nity?nanda Mi?ra >> http://nmisra.googlepages.com >> >> > > > -- > Nity?nanda Mi?ra > http://nmisra.googlepages.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 08:30:43 2016 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 14:00:43 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It has no scriptural sanction. See the AitareyaBrahmana story of Sunahsepa on human sacrifice that is strictly forbidden. The population was heterogeneous; so was the culture; unapproved practices took place. One may look onto the Brhatkathamanjari/ Kathasaritsagara. Best DB On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends of > the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, > ? > Princess Niwal Da?, As su > ?n > g > ?b > y t > ?wo > s > ?c > a > ?v > e > ?n > gers > ?f? > ro > m > Bi > ?b > iy?l > ?V > illage > ?n > ear A > ?mb > ?l?), > ? > Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - > > his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain > his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? > > Thanks in advance, > > Artur Karp > > Warsaw > Poland > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 09:22:29 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 14:52:29 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't think that Prof. Karp was asking if there was a scriptural sanction. He was just enquiring about the availability of the motif. Such motifs when available in folk tales and fairy tales are not considered to be reflecting the cultural reality of the tradition bearers. In Jung's classification (1. Psychological and 2. Visionary) , these narratives form part of visionary which means they contain dreamlike elements which have complex mechanisms of 'symbolism', related to unconscious aspects such as guilts, fears etc. That said, there are certain fairy tales particularly those involving sorcery, witchcraft and the like, where such motifs involving horror and morbidity, containing formulae of sacrificing or consuming organisms for acquiring the powers of the sacrificed or consumed organism do occur in India and many other parts of the world. Bhetala pancha vimsati etc, have such motifs. A trickster teacher conspiring to sacrifice the disciple being sacrificed by the disciple who realizes the conspiracy of the trickster teacher is found in Vikramarkacharitra. On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > It has no scriptural sanction. See the AitareyaBrahmana story of Sunahsepa > on human sacrifice that is strictly forbidden. > The population was heterogeneous; so was the culture; unapproved practices > took place. One may look onto the Brhatkathamanjari/ Kathasaritsagara. > Best > DB > > On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > >> In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends of >> the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, >> ? >> Princess Niwal Da?, As su >> ?n >> g >> ?b >> y t >> ?wo >> s >> ?c >> a >> ?v >> e >> ?n >> gers >> ?f? >> ro >> m >> Bi >> ?b >> iy?l >> ?V >> illage >> ?n >> ear A >> ?mb >> ?l?), >> ? >> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - >> >> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain >> his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Artur Karp >> >> Warsaw >> Poland >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Mon Apr 25 09:47:47 2016 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 09:47:47 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047B79B5A@xm-mbx-04-prod> Tibetan sources, no doubt drawing on something in one Buddhist tantra or another, speak of consuming the flesh of one "born seven times a brahman." A particularly good example is found in the hagiography of the 14th century mystic O-rgyan-gling-pa, and in his well-known revelation, the Padma-bka'-thang. (For the hagiography, one may refer to Dudjom Rinpoche, The Fundamentals and History of the Nyingma School.) I have not traced out the Indian background for this motif. But some relevant elements have been explored in Jacob Dalton's The Taming of the Demons. Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 10:08:47 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 15:38:47 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't think it does. The desiderative (sannanta) is not the same as intensive (ya?anta). Is it possible you have the intensive in mind? bubhuk?? = bhuj + san + a + ??p san is by dh?to? karma?a? sam?nakart?k?dicch?y?? v? (A 3.1.7) a is by a pratyay?t (A 3.3.102) ??p is by aj?dyata???p (A 4.1.4) There is no sense of intense desire or craving in the suffix san as far as I know (neither in a or ??p). In itself, the word bubhuk?? simply means a desire to eat or hunger, both literally and in common usage as attested to in the Amarako?a (a?an?y? bubhuk?? k?ut) and also in the Dh?tup??ha (k?udh bubhuk??y?m). As far as the interpretation of bubhuk?? in the MBh verses is concerned, the commentary by N?laka??ha may be referred to. On Apr 25, 2016 1:36 PM, "Artur Karp" wrote: > Dear Cor-respondents, > > what worries me in these nice English and Hindi translations is that their > authors kind of omit a delicate problem - presented by the use of a *desiderative > *formation from the verb bhuj - bubhuk??. Turner's CDIAL 9286 gives: > "desire to eat, hunger". > > Might it not be, that the use of the desiderative points us not to simple > "hunger"? But, perhaps, to "[uncontrolled] craving for food"? To, even, > "gluttony" - as the result of that uncontrolled craving? > > An idea of moderation there? Popularly: emotional eating vs. mindful > eating. > > What I feel is present there is the warning against and the recommendation > not to succumb to emotions/temptations generated by the idea of food. > > > Best, > > Artur > > > > 2016-04-25 2:40 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra : > >> You may refer the Hindi translation by Gita Press too (see verses 88 to >> 92). >> >> On 25 April 2016 at 06:04, Nityanand Misra wrote: >> >>> Kisari Mohan Ganguly has already taken pity on all of us. Copy-pasted >>> from http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m14/m14090.htm >>> >>> O thou of excellent vows, thou practisest penances with great devotion. >>> Thy gifts have, therefore, gratified the deities highly, O best of >>> regenerate ones. >>> >>> Since thou hast made this gift, in a season of great difficulty, with a >>> pure heart, thou hast, by this act of thine, conquered Heaven. >>> >>> Hunger destroys one's wisdom and drives off one's righteous >>> understanding. One whose intelligence is overwhelmed by hunger casts off >>> all fortitude. >>> >>> He, therefore, that conquers hunger conquers Heaven without doubt. One's >>> righteousness is never destroyed as long as one cherishes the inclination >>> of making gifts. >>> >>> >>> 2016-04-24 22:43 GMT+05:30 Artur Karp : >>> >>>> 14.093.063a ?raddhay? paray? yas tva? tapa? carasi suvrata >>>> 14.093.063c tasm?d dev?s tav?nena pr?t? dvijavarottama >>>> 14.093.064a sarvasvam etad yasm?t te tyakta? ?uddhena cetas? >>>> 14.093.064c k?cchrak?le tata? svargo jito 'ya? tava karma?? >>>> 14.093.065a k?udh? nir?udati praj??? dharmy?? buddhi? vyapohati >>>> 14.093.065c k?udh?parigataj??no dh?ti? tyajati caiva ha >>>> 14.093.066a bubhuk??? jayate yas tu sa svarga? jayate dhruvam >>>> 14.093.066c yad? d?narucir bhavati tad? dharmo na s?dati >>>> >>>> Could someone, please, please, give me precise translation of these >>>> verses? >>>> >>>> I do not have my dictionary at hand, but need the quotation very >>>> urgently. Could someone take pity on >>>> >>>> Artur Karp >>>> >>>> from far-away Poland? >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nity?nanda Mi?ra >>> http://nmisra.googlepages.com >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nity?nanda Mi?ra >> http://nmisra.googlepages.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klaus.karttunen at Helsinki.Fi Mon Apr 25 10:41:06 2016 From: klaus.karttunen at Helsinki.Fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 13:41:06 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Cannibalism Message-ID: Stith Thompson & Jonas Balys, The Oral Tales of India, Boomington 1958, chapter G lists a great number of folkloristic examples. Klaus Karttunen South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418 Fax +358-(0)2941 22094 Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Mon Apr 25 13:28:17 2016 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 06:28:17 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The desiderative at times is used to indicate strong desire. Example: desiderative forms of labh ? lipsu, lipsA. In MW, this can mean the simple desire to gain or obtain, or ?longing for?. To long ? to have ?a strong wish or desire.? Best, Howard > On Apr 25, 2016, at 3:08 AM, Nityanand Misra wrote: > > I don't think it does. The desiderative (sannanta) is not the same as intensive (ya?anta). Is it possible you have the intensive in mind? > > bubhuk?? = bhuj + san + a + ??p > > san is by dh?to? karma?a? sam?nakart?k?dicch?y?? v? (A 3.1.7) > > a is by a pratyay?t (A 3.3.102) > > ??p is by aj?dyata???p (A 4.1.4) > > There is no sense of intense desire or craving in the suffix san as far as I know (neither in a or ??p). In itself, the word bubhuk?? simply means a desire to eat or hunger, both literally and in common usage as attested to in the Amarako?a (a?an?y? bubhuk?? k?ut) and also in the Dh?tup??ha (k?udh bubhuk??y?m). > > As far as the interpretation of bubhuk?? in the MBh verses is concerned, the commentary by N?laka??ha may be referred to. > > On Apr 25, 2016 1:36 PM, "Artur Karp" > wrote: > Dear Cor-respondents, > > what worries me in these nice English and Hindi translations is that their authors kind of omit a delicate problem - presented by the use of a desiderative formation from the verb bhuj - bubhuk??. Turner's CDIAL 9286 gives: "desire to eat, hunger". > > Might it not be, that the use of the desiderative points us not to simple "hunger"? But, perhaps, to "[uncontrolled] craving for food"? To, even, "gluttony" - as the result of that uncontrolled craving? > > An idea of moderation there? Popularly: emotional eating vs. mindful eating. > > What I feel is present there is the warning against and the recommendation not to succumb to emotions/temptations generated by the idea of food. > > > Best, > > Artur > > > > 2016-04-25 2:40 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra >: > You may refer the Hindi translation by Gita Press too (see verses 88 to 92). > > On 25 April 2016 at 06:04, Nityanand Misra > wrote: > Kisari Mohan Ganguly has already taken pity on all of us. Copy-pasted from http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m14/m14090.htm > O thou of excellent vows, thou practisest penances with great devotion. Thy gifts have, therefore, gratified the deities highly, O best of regenerate ones. > > Since thou hast made this gift, in a season of great difficulty, with a pure heart, thou hast, by this act of thine, conquered Heaven. > > Hunger destroys one's wisdom and drives off one's righteous understanding. One whose intelligence is overwhelmed by hunger casts off all fortitude. > > He, therefore, that conquers hunger conquers Heaven without doubt. One's righteousness is never destroyed as long as one cherishes the inclination of making gifts. > > > > 2016-04-24 22:43 GMT+05:30 Artur Karp >: > 14.093.063a ?raddhay? paray? yas tva? tapa? carasi suvrata > 14.093.063c tasm?d dev?s tav?nena pr?t? dvijavarottama > 14.093.064a sarvasvam etad yasm?t te tyakta? ?uddhena cetas? > 14.093.064c k?cchrak?le tata? svargo jito 'ya? tava karma?? > 14.093.065a k?udh? nir?udati praj??? dharmy?? buddhi? vyapohati > 14.093.065c k?udh?parigataj??no dh?ti? tyajati caiva ha > 14.093.066a bubhuk??? jayate yas tu sa svarga? jayate dhruvam > 14.093.066c yad? d?narucir bhavati tad? dharmo na s?dati > > Could someone, please, please, give me precise translation of these verses? > > I do not have my dictionary at hand, but need the quotation very urgently. Could someone take pity on > > Artur Karp > > from far-away Poland? > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Nity?nanda Mi?ra > http://nmisra.googlepages.com > > > > > -- > Nity?nanda Mi?ra > http://nmisra.googlepages.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon Apr 25 14:26:59 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 16:26:59 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Howard, >> at times [...] used to indicate strong desire that is what I suspect is built in in the term bubhuk??. From the purely grammatical point of view (as presented here by Nityanand) - perhaps not, but the way language is used, is a different matter. Artur 2016-04-25 15:28 GMT+02:00 Howard Resnick
: > The desiderative at times is used to indicate strong desire. Example: > desiderative forms of labh ? lipsu, lipsA. In MW, this can mean the simple > desire to gain or obtain, or ?longing for?. To long ? to have ?a strong > wish or desire.? > > Best, > Howard > > On Apr 25, 2016, at 3:08 AM, Nityanand Misra wrote: > > I don't think it does. The desiderative (sannanta) is not the same as > intensive (ya?anta). Is it possible you have the intensive in mind? > > bubhuk?? = bhuj + san + a + ??p > > san is by dh?to? karma?a? sam?nakart?k?dicch?y?? v? (A 3.1.7) > > a is by a pratyay?t (A 3.3.102) > > ??p is by aj?dyata???p (A 4.1.4) > > There is no sense of intense desire or craving in the suffix san as far as > I know (neither in a or ??p). In itself, the word bubhuk?? simply means a > desire to eat or hunger, both literally and in common usage as attested to > in the Amarako?a (a?an?y? bubhuk?? k?ut) and also in the Dh?tup??ha (k?udh > bubhuk??y?m). > > As far as the interpretation of bubhuk?? in the MBh verses is concerned, > the commentary by N?laka??ha may be referred to. > On Apr 25, 2016 1:36 PM, "Artur Karp" wrote: > >> Dear Cor-respondents, >> >> what worries me in these nice English and Hindi translations is that >> their authors kind of omit a delicate problem - presented by the use of a *desiderative >> *formation from the verb bhuj - bubhuk??. Turner's CDIAL 9286 gives: >> "desire to eat, hunger". >> >> Might it not be, that the use of the desiderative points us not to simple >> "hunger"? But, perhaps, to "[uncontrolled] craving for food"? To, even, >> "gluttony" - as the result of that uncontrolled craving? >> >> An idea of moderation there? Popularly: emotional eating vs. mindful >> eating. >> >> What I feel is present there is the warning against and the >> recommendation not to succumb to emotions/temptations generated by the idea >> of food. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Artur >> >> >> >> 2016-04-25 2:40 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra : >> >>> You may refer the Hindi translation by Gita Press too (see verses 88 to >>> 92). >>> >>> On 25 April 2016 at 06:04, Nityanand Misra wrote: >>> >>>> Kisari Mohan Ganguly has already taken pity on all of us. Copy-pasted >>>> from http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m14/m14090.htm >>>> >>>> O thou of excellent vows, thou practisest penances with great devotion. >>>> Thy gifts have, therefore, gratified the deities highly, O best of >>>> regenerate ones. >>>> >>>> Since thou hast made this gift, in a season of great difficulty, with a >>>> pure heart, thou hast, by this act of thine, conquered Heaven. >>>> >>>> Hunger destroys one's wisdom and drives off one's righteous >>>> understanding. One whose intelligence is overwhelmed by hunger casts off >>>> all fortitude. >>>> >>>> He, therefore, that conquers hunger conquers Heaven without doubt. >>>> One's righteousness is never destroyed as long as one cherishes the >>>> inclination of making gifts. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2016-04-24 22:43 GMT+05:30 Artur Karp : >>>> >>>>> 14.093.063a ?raddhay? paray? yas tva? tapa? carasi suvrata >>>>> 14.093.063c tasm?d dev?s tav?nena pr?t? dvijavarottama >>>>> 14.093.064a sarvasvam etad yasm?t te tyakta? ?uddhena cetas? >>>>> 14.093.064c k?cchrak?le tata? svargo jito 'ya? tava karma?? >>>>> 14.093.065a k?udh? nir?udati praj??? dharmy?? buddhi? vyapohati >>>>> 14.093.065c k?udh?parigataj??no dh?ti? tyajati caiva ha >>>>> 14.093.066a bubhuk??? jayate yas tu sa svarga? jayate dhruvam >>>>> 14.093.066c yad? d?narucir bhavati tad? dharmo na s?dati >>>>> >>>>> Could someone, please, please, give me precise translation of these >>>>> verses? >>>>> >>>>> I do not have my dictionary at hand, but need the quotation very >>>>> urgently. Could someone take pity on >>>>> >>>>> Artur Karp >>>>> >>>>> from far-away Poland? >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nity?nanda Mi?ra >>>> http://nmisra.googlepages.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nity?nanda Mi?ra >>> http://nmisra.googlepages.com >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Mon Apr 25 16:35:21 2016 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 16:35:21 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1190003382.1931262.1461602121776.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" tantra. I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places with famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard the bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I have read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen it. It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians and Nepalis. Best, Dean Anderson On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple,?The Legends of the Panjab?, Vol. I (No XVI,??Princess Niwal Da?, As su?ng ?by t?wo?s?ca?ve?ngers ?f?rom?Bi?biy?l ?Village ?near A?mb?l?),??Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain his powers ?Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? Thanks in advance,? Artur Karp WarsawPoland _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon Apr 25 17:09:50 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 19:09:50 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: <1190003382.1931262.1461602121776.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that his healing powers would not be lost. Best, also - Artur 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson : > The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" tantra. > I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places with > famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard the > bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I have > read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen it. > It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians and > Nepalis. > > Best, > > Dean Anderson > > > On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > > In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends of > the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, > ? > Princess Niwal Da?, As su > ?n > g > ?b > y t > ?wo > s > ?c > a > ?v > e > ?n > gers > ?f? > ro > m > Bi > ?b > iy?l > ?V > illage > ?n > ear A > ?mb > ?l?), > ? > Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - > > his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain > his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? > > Thanks in advance, > > Artur Karp > > Warsaw > Poland > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 17:16:08 2016 From: d.wujastyk at gmail.com (Dagmar Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 11:16:08 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In David G. White's *Alchemical Body*, he describes some stories about eating the flesh of alchemists. See here (I hope the link works for you). Human flesh also occurs as an ingredient in some alchemical works, even in late ones such as the Rasajalanidhi (actually, the reference in that work is about an oil derived from a human's body, so not flesh consumption, strictly speaking). There is a recipe in R?vana's Arkaprak??a, in which human flesh is used as an agent against poison. There is also a recipe for a pill based on human flesh in the Rasas?ra by Govinda. And human flesh and blood also occur as ingredients in the Rasopani?ad. See J.G. Meulenbeld's *History of Indian Medical Literature*, Volume IIA, pages 467, 693 and 738 respectively for exact references. Grizzly topic! Best wishes, Dagmar Virenfrei. www.avast.com <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On 25 April 2016 at 10:36, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dean Michael Anderson > To: Dipak Bhattacharya , Artur Karp > > Cc: indology > Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:35:21 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer > The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" tantra. > I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places with > famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard the > bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I have > read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen it. > It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians and > Nepalis. > > Best, > > Dean Anderson > > > On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > > In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends of > the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, > ? > Princess Niwal Da?, As su > ?n > g > ?b > y t > ?wo > s > ?c > a > ?v > e > ?n > gers > ?f? > ro > m > Bi > ?b > iy?l > ?V > illage > ?n > ear A > ?mb > ?l?), > ? > Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - > > his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain > his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? > > Thanks in advance, > > Artur Karp > > Warsaw > Poland > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Mon Apr 25 18:02:02 2016 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 18:02:02 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <273268343.2003032.1461607322652.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in the remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare European saintly relics. Grisly, indeed. Dean From: Artur Karp To: Dean Michael Anderson Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya ; indology Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that his healing powers would not be lost. Best, also -? Artur 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson : The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" tantra. I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places with famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard the bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I have read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen it. It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians and Nepalis. Best, Dean Anderson On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple,?The Legends of the Panjab?, Vol. I (No XVI,??Princess Niwal Da?, As su?ng ?by t?wo?s?ca?ve?ngers ?f?rom?Bi?biy?l ?Village ?near A?mb?l?),??Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain his powers ?Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? Thanks in advance,? Artur Karp WarsawPoland _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 18:21:04 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 23:51:04 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Prof. Karp, You must be aware of these words from the Bible. ?You Must Eat My Flesh? I found a discussion here: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words. What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and drink his blood. There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two expressions. Regards, -N On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dean Michael Anderson > To: Artur Karp > Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya , indology < > indology at list.indology.info> > Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer > The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in the > remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare European > saintly relics. > > Grisly, indeed. > > Dean > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Artur Karp > *To:* Dean Michael Anderson > *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya ; indology < > indology at list.indology.info> > *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer > > In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s > Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that > his healing powers would not be lost. > > Best, also - > > Artur > > 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson < > eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>: > > The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" tantra. > I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places with > famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard the > bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I have > read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen it. > It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians and > Nepalis. > > Best, > > Dean Anderson > > > On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > > In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends of > the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, > ? > Princess Niwal Da?, As su > ?n > g > ?b > y t > ?wo > s > ?c > a > ?v > e > ?n > gers > ?f? > ro > m > Bi > ?b > iy?l > ?V > illage > ?n > ear A > ?mb > ?l?), > ? > Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - > > his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain > his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? > > Thanks in advance, > > Artur Karp > > Warsaw > Poland > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 18:54:32 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 00:24:32 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ?The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you inherit his powers. In ?The Story of the Grandmother? , a folk version of ?Little Red Riding Hood? the girl eats his grandmother?s flesh and drinks her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism, but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified receiving magical power.? ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around the World By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365 On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Prof. Karp, > > You must be aware of these words from the Bible. ?You Must Eat My Flesh? I > found a discussion here: > > http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh > > There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words. > > What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and drink > his blood. > > There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two > expressions. > > Regards, > > -N > > On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Dean Michael Anderson >> To: Artur Karp >> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya , indology < >> indology at list.indology.info> >> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in the >> remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare European >> saintly relics. >> >> Grisly, indeed. >> >> Dean >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Artur Karp >> *To:* Dean Michael Anderson >> *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya ; indology < >> indology at list.indology.info> >> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >> >> In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s >> Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that >> his healing powers would not be lost. >> >> Best, also - >> >> Artur >> >> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson < >> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>: >> >> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" tantra. >> I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places with >> famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard the >> bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I have >> read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen it. >> It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians and >> Nepalis. >> >> Best, >> >> Dean Anderson >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >> >> In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends of >> the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, >> ? >> Princess Niwal Da?, As su >> ?n >> g >> ?b >> y t >> ?wo >> s >> ?c >> a >> ?v >> e >> ?n >> gers >> ?f? >> ro >> m >> Bi >> ?b >> iy?l >> ?V >> illage >> ?n >> ear A >> ?mb >> ?l?), >> ? >> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - >> >> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain >> his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Artur Karp >> >> Warsaw >> Poland >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 19:11:17 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 00:41:17 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: sorry for the mistake : the girl eats *his *grandmother?s flesh , correction: the girl eats *her *grandmother?s flesh On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > ?The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you > inherit his powers. In ?The Story of the Grandmother? , a folk version of > ?Little Red Riding Hood? the girl eats his grandmother?s flesh and drinks > her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism, > but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix > which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older > often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified > receiving magical power.? > ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around the > World > > By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365 > > On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> Prof. Karp, >> >> You must be aware of these words from the Bible. ?You Must Eat My Flesh? >> I found a discussion here: >> >> http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh >> >> There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words. >> >> What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and drink >> his blood. >> >> There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two >> expressions. >> >> Regards, >> >> -N >> >> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Dean Michael Anderson >>> To: Artur Karp >>> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya , indology < >>> indology at list.indology.info> >>> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >>> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in the >>> remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare European >>> saintly relics. >>> >>> Grisly, indeed. >>> >>> Dean >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Artur Karp >>> *To:* Dean Michael Anderson >>> *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya ; indology < >>> indology at list.indology.info> >>> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >>> >>> In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s >>> Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that >>> his healing powers would not be lost. >>> >>> Best, also - >>> >>> Artur >>> >>> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson < >>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>: >>> >>> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" tantra. >>> I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places with >>> famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard the >>> bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I have >>> read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen it. >>> It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians and >>> Nepalis. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Dean Anderson >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >>> >>> In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends >>> of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, >>> ? >>> Princess Niwal Da?, As su >>> ?n >>> g >>> ?b >>> y t >>> ?wo >>> s >>> ?c >>> a >>> ?v >>> e >>> ?n >>> gers >>> ?f? >>> ro >>> m >>> Bi >>> ?b >>> iy?l >>> ?V >>> illage >>> ?n >>> ear A >>> ?mb >>> ?l?), >>> ? >>> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - >>> >>> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain >>> his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> >>> Artur Karp >>> >>> Warsaw >>> Poland >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Mon Apr 25 19:46:34 2016 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 12:46:34 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don?t think it applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the strength of someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the purpose of consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has shown by being defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed you to prevail. In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war sacrifice, in which body parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked (boiled), though there is no evidence that the resultant ?food? was actually eaten. And in the Kali?kattuppara?i, there are long descriptions of ghosts and macabre deities feasting on the war dead. George > On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > > ?The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you inherit his powers. In ?The Story of the Grandmother? , a folk version of ?Little Red Riding Hood? the girl eats his grandmother?s flesh and drinks her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism, but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified receiving magical power.? > > ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around the World > By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365 > > > On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > Prof. Karp, > > You must be aware of these words from the Bible. ?You Must Eat My Flesh? I found a discussion here: > http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh > > There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words. > > What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and drink his blood. > > There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two expressions. > > Regards, > > -N > > On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dean Michael Anderson > > To: Artur Karp > > Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya >, indology > > Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer > The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in the remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare European saintly relics. > > Grisly, indeed. > > Dean > > > > From: Artur Karp > > To: Dean Michael Anderson > > Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya >; indology > > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer > > In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that his healing powers would not be lost. > > Best, also - > > Artur > > 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson >: > The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" tantra. I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places with famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard the bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I have read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen it. It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians and Nepalis. > > Best, > > Dean Anderson > > > On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp > wrote: > In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI,? Princess Niwal Da?, As su?ng ?by t?wo s?ca?ve?ngers ?f?rom Bi?biy?l ?Village ?near A?mb?l?),? Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - > > his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? > > Thanks in advance, > > Artur Karp > > Warsaw > Poland > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > > > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 19:51:33 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 13:51:33 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25 April 2016 at 13:46, George Hart wrote: > ?[...] ? > Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the > dead person > ?[...] > ?Any hint of inoculation of course raises the interest of a medical historian :-) But I am sure you were not speaking technically. ? ?This is a fork in the conversation, but there are passages in the ayuvedic literature where the authors worry about the issue of poisonous caterpillars, and how it is that the caterpillars don't poison themselves or their offspring. It's a good question, I think. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk* Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity Department of History and Classics University of Alberta, Canada -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 20:20:44 2016 From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 16:20:44 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Uberoi Seminar Deadline extended May 29th, 2016 Message-ID: Hello All, We are pleased to inform that the deadline is extended to May 29th, 2016. I am including the full announcement below. Thank you. Lavanya *Call for Papers: Deadline extended to May 29h, 2016* *Uberoi Seminar at Shawnee State University, OHIO, USA * We are excited to announce that we will be hosting the interdisciplinary conference on Indian Cultural Heritage in the Global Age, which will take place at the Shawnee State University, Portsmouth, Ohio, during September 23-24, 2016. The conference brings together academic research on Indian history, its religious and cultural history. India is home to a number of religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism, collectively referred to as the Dharma traditions. In a global world, it is more than ever necessary to understand India, its cultural heritage and religions. Hence we seek papers on all aspects of Indian history, culture, and religions. We are especially seeking papers dedicated to Bhakti, Krishna, Balarama and modern Vaishnavism. Additionally, selected papers will be included in a collection of essays resulting from the conference. Please send a 250-word abstract in PDF format and brief (one paragraph maximum) bio to lavanyavemsani at gmail.com or lvemsani at shawnee.edu by May 29, 2016 (11:59 pm). Notifications of acceptance will be sent by June 29, 2016 and the program will be announced by August 29, 2016. -- *Dr. Lavanya Vemsani* Ph.D. History (Univ. of Hyderabad) & Ph.D. Religious Studies (McMaster Univ.) Distinguished University Professor of History, Department of Social Sciences *Shawnee State University* Portsmouth OH 45662 V:7403513233 F:7403513153 E:lvemsani at shawnee.edu Editor, *International Journal of Dharma and Hindu Studies* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yogacara at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 20:43:21 2016 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 16:43:21 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For those looking beyond Indian sources for the motivations and themes of religious cannibalism, you might have a look at Jan Kott's *Eating of the Gods*. http://www.nupress.northwestern.edu/content/eating-gods Dan On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 3:51 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > On 25 April 2016 at 13:46, George Hart wrote: > > >> ?[...] ? >> Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the >> dead person >> ?[...] >> > > ?Any hint of inoculation of course raises the interest of a medical > historian :-) But I am sure you were not speaking technically. ? > > > ?This is a fork in the conversation, but there are passages in the > ayuvedic literature where the authors worry about the issue of poisonous > caterpillars, and how it is that the caterpillars don't poison themselves > or their offspring. It's a good question, I think. > > Best, > Dominik > > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk* > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > Department of History and Classics > > University of Alberta, Canada > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Palaniappa at aol.com Mon Apr 25 23:35:56 2016 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 18:35:56 -0500 Subject: Wendy Doniger and Sanskritists Message-ID: <14F36415-D8D5-4D25-9E2A-8F98A4931D85@aol.com> This article may be of interest to Sanskritists on the list. http://scroll.in/article/805700/a-life-of-learning-wendy-doniger-on-becoming-the-woman-who-pretended-to-be Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 01:37:33 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 07:07:33 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25 April 2016 at 18:58, Howard Resnick
wrote: > The desiderative at times is used to indicate strong desire. Example: > desiderative forms of labh ? lipsu, lipsA. In MW, this can mean the simple > desire to gain or obtain, or ?longing for?. To long ? to have ?a strong > wish or desire.? > > Best, > Howard > > Monier Williams has errors. An example is meaning of the gav? as an ?independent word? for speech and the citation of ?i?up?lavadha 2-68 which is incorrect. In this case (?lips??) there is no precise citation also. The etymology (yoga) of ?lips?? (?labdhum icch??, labh + san + a + ??p) does not suggest any intensity in the desire. If one wants to go for usage (r??hi), it is better to cross-check with Sanskrit Ko?a-s and attested usages than take M-W for granted. As per Amarako?a (1-7-27,28), there is a clear distinction between ?lips?? which is listed with words for desire, and ?l?las?? which is explained as intense desire or longing (grammar would confirm this): ???????????????????????. dohadam icch? k??k?? sp?heh? t??v??ch? lips? manoratha? k?mo?bhil??astar?a?ca *so?tyartha? l?las? dvayo?* The Vy?khy?sudh? on above verses explains that the first twelve are synonyms of ?icch?? (and also ) and the word ?l?las?? is a synonym of ?atipr?ti? If any other authentic Ko?a or commentary on a K?vya usage confirms that ?longing? or ?intense desire? is also a meaning of ?lips??, M-W can be accepted. Same for ?bubhuk???. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 02:52:41 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 22:52:41 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Wendy Doniger and Sanskritists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The link to a video of the lecture https://vimeo.com/127954957 On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 7:37 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan > To: Indology List > Cc: > Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:35:56 -0500 > Subject: Wendy Doniger and Sanskritists > This article may be of interest to Sanskritists on the list. > > > http://scroll.in/article/805700/a-life-of-learning-wendy-doniger-on-becoming-the-woman-who-pretended-to-be > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Tue Apr 26 03:21:23 2016 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 16 20:21:23 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2D353BFB-AEC4-4ED9-8B20-13CDC3C8DE4F@earthlink.net> ///Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, /// Hmmm ? this certainly is a new speculation as far as I am concerned! For me, ?inoculation? is something medicinal and physical, not ritual and literary. I?d like to learn more about it. Please educate me. ///the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm itself./// This statement is even more confusing. 'Dead spirit harming itself?' What does that mean? You should educate me. ++++++++++ There are quite a few references to ?cannibalism? in Old Tamil (Sangam literature, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai), Kalingathupparani, and a later hagiographic Tamil literature (Periyapuranam) perhaps depicting the later-developed k?p?lika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalika ) tradition. However, none of the Tamil references point to ?acquiring? the other party?s (== the consumed ones?) flesh or life. And, the consumed ones were not always a king?s enemies. I wish scholars would abstain from making sweeping statements about a foreign culture/literature. Thanks and regards, rajam > On Apr 25, 2016, at 12:46 PM, George Hart wrote: > > This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don?t think it applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the strength of someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the purpose of consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has shown by being defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed you to prevail. In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war sacrifice, in which body parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked (boiled), though there is no evidence that the resultant ?food? was actually eaten. And in the Kali?kattuppara?i, there are long descriptions of ghosts and macabre deities feasting on the war dead. George > >> On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: >> >> ?The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you inherit his powers. In ?The Story of the Grandmother? , a folk version of ?Little Red Riding Hood? the girl eats his grandmother?s flesh and drinks her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism, but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified receiving magical power.? >> >> ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around the World >> By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365 >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: >> Prof. Karp, >> >> You must be aware of these words from the Bible. ?You Must Eat My Flesh? I found a discussion here: >> http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh >> >> There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words. >> >> What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and drink his blood. >> >> There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two expressions. >> >> Regards, >> >> -N >> >> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Dean Michael Anderson > >> To: Artur Karp > >> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya >, indology > >> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in the remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare European saintly relics. >> >> Grisly, indeed. >> >> Dean >> >> >> >> From: Artur Karp > >> To: Dean Michael Anderson > >> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya >; indology > >> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >> >> In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that his healing powers would not be lost. >> >> Best, also - >> >> Artur >> >> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson >: >> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" tantra. I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places with famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard the bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I have read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen it. It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians and Nepalis. >> >> Best, >> >> Dean Anderson >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp > wrote: >> In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI,? Princess Niwal Da?, As su?ng ?by t?wo s?ca?ve?ngers ?f?rom Bi?biy?l ?Village ?near A?mb?l?),? Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - >> >> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Artur Karp >> >> Warsaw >> Poland >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Tue Apr 26 05:23:17 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 07:23:17 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Masterly exposition. But (I already used this twice, sorry), there is always a but lurking there, somewhere behind the screens. How do you measure 'desire'? To my uneducated (no Amarako?a in the list of necessary readings) mind the desiderative form itself guarantees the connection between the word and the idea of desire. 'lips?' - ?labdhum *icch?*? is self-explanatory. How intense the desire is - it's all a matter of context. Let me guess: in certain contexts 'lips?' could be used to describe a momentary, inconsequential wish, to obtain something without explicit effort ; in other contexts, perhaps, the wish to obtain something of lasting value, the act itself coldly planned for. Same for ?bubhuk??? - intensity of the desire depends on the context. Who *bubhuk??? jayate* - that person overcomes the feelings, the emotions that are linked with enjoyment of food. In our example - quite strong emotions, considering "the season of great difficulty". "The choice of food metaphor in the context of bliss hails from a tradition going back to Upani?ads, where the experience of bliss was linked with enjoyment of food" [V. Aklujkar, *Sharing the Divine Feast*, in: R.S. Khare (ed.), *The Eternal Food: Gastronomic Ideas and Experience of Hindus and Buddhists*, 1992, p. 99] The epic story tellers do not want their heroes to be perfect, and go around trying to do things in the "grammatick" way; they supply them with words - to use as they see fit, not always properly; their heroes act, they are full of, more often than not, only dimly felt emotions, and they act on them, and are known to commit mistakes. And that is why we like them, and want to hear more about them, again and again Let them have their emotions. Best, Artur 2016-04-26 3:37 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra : > > > On 25 April 2016 at 18:58, Howard Resnick
wrote: > >> The desiderative at times is used to indicate strong desire. Example: >> desiderative forms of labh ? lipsu, lipsA. In MW, this can mean the simple >> desire to gain or obtain, or ?longing for?. To long ? to have ?a strong >> wish or desire.? >> >> Best, >> Howard >> >> > Monier Williams has errors. An example is meaning of the gav? as an > ?independent word? for speech and the citation of ?i?up?lavadha 2-68 which > is incorrect. In this case (?lips??) there is no precise citation also. > > > The etymology (yoga) of ?lips?? (?labdhum icch??, labh + san + a + ??p) > does not suggest any intensity in the desire. If one wants to go for usage > (r??hi), it is better to cross-check with Sanskrit Ko?a-s and attested > usages than take M-W for granted. > > > As per Amarako?a (1-7-27,28), there is a clear distinction between ?lips?? > which is listed with words for desire, and ?l?las?? which is explained as > intense desire or longing (grammar would confirm this): > > > ???????????????????????. dohadam > > icch? k??k?? sp?heh? t??v??ch? lips? manoratha? > > k?mo?bhil??astar?a?ca *so?tyartha? l?las? dvayo?* > > > The Vy?khy?sudh? on above verses explains that the first twelve are > synonyms of ?icch?? (and also ) and the word ?l?las?? is a synonym of > ?atipr?ti? > > > If any other authentic Ko?a or commentary on a K?vya usage confirms that > ?longing? or ?intense desire? is also a meaning of ?lips??, M-W can be > accepted. Same for ?bubhuk???. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanus1216 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 26 05:57:04 2016 From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com (Allen Thrasher) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 05:57:04 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Wendy Doniger and Sanskritists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1860860891.2333418.1461650224507.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> My apologies to the list for carelessness in forwarding the message about Wendy's lecture to a major fan and scholar of Lewis Carroll. Allen Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:52 PM, Harry Spier wrote: The link to a video of the lecture?https://vimeo.com/127954957 On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 7:37 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY wrote: _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From:?Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan To:?Indology List Cc:? Date:?Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:35:56 -0500 Subject:?Wendy Doniger and Sanskritists This article may be of interest to Sanskritists on the list. http://scroll.in/article/805700/a-life-of-learning-wendy-doniger-on-becoming-the-woman-who-pretended-to-be Regards,Palaniappan _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 06:59:54 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 12:29:54 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: bubhuk??? jayate yas tu sa svarga? jayate dhruvam bubhuk??? jayate yas tu does not mean one who loses hunger or one who can stay without being hungry. It means one who keeps one's hunger under one's control . k?udh? nir?udati praj??? dharmy?? buddhi? vyapohati means uncontrolled hunger destroys one's wisdom and drives off one's righteous understanding. Issue is bubhukShaajaya and not bubhukShaateevrataa or bubhukShaasaumyataa. On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Artur Karp wrote: > Masterly exposition. > > But (I already used this twice, sorry), there is always a but lurking > there, somewhere behind the screens. > > How do you measure 'desire'? > > To my uneducated (no Amarako?a in the list of necessary readings) mind > the desiderative form itself guarantees the connection between the word > and the idea of desire. > > 'lips?' - ?labdhum *icch?*? is self-explanatory. > > How intense the desire is - it's all a matter of context. > > Let me guess: in certain contexts 'lips?' could be used to describe a > momentary, inconsequential wish, to obtain something without explicit > effort ; in other contexts, perhaps, the wish to obtain something of > lasting value, the act itself coldly planned for. > > Same for ?bubhuk??? - intensity of the desire depends on the context. > > Who *bubhuk??? jayate* - that person overcomes the feelings, the > emotions that are linked with enjoyment of food. In our example - quite > strong emotions, considering "the season of great difficulty". > > "The choice of food metaphor in the context of bliss hails from a > tradition going back to Upani?ads, where the experience of bliss was > linked with enjoyment of food" [V. Aklujkar, *Sharing the Divine Feast*, > in: R.S. Khare (ed.), *The Eternal Food: Gastronomic Ideas and Experience > of Hindus and Buddhists*, 1992, p. 99] > > The epic story tellers do not want their heroes to be perfect, and go > around trying to do things in the "grammatick" way; they supply them with > words - to use as they see fit, not always properly; their heroes act, they > are full of, more often than not, only dimly felt emotions, and they act on > them, and are known to commit mistakes. > > And that is why we like them, and want to hear more about them, again and > again > > Let them have their emotions. > > Best, > > Artur > > 2016-04-26 3:37 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra : > >> >> >> On 25 April 2016 at 18:58, Howard Resnick
wrote: >> >>> The desiderative at times is used to indicate strong desire. Example: >>> desiderative forms of labh ? lipsu, lipsA. In MW, this can mean the simple >>> desire to gain or obtain, or ?longing for?. To long ? to have ?a strong >>> wish or desire.? >>> >>> Best, >>> Howard >>> >>> >> Monier Williams has errors. An example is meaning of the gav? as an >> ?independent word? for speech and the citation of ?i?up?lavadha 2-68 which >> is incorrect. In this case (?lips??) there is no precise citation also. >> >> >> The etymology (yoga) of ?lips?? (?labdhum icch??, labh + san + a + ??p) >> does not suggest any intensity in the desire. If one wants to go for usage >> (r??hi), it is better to cross-check with Sanskrit Ko?a-s and attested >> usages than take M-W for granted. >> >> >> As per Amarako?a (1-7-27,28), there is a clear distinction between >> ?lips?? which is listed with words for desire, and ?l?las?? which is >> explained as intense desire or longing (grammar would confirm this): >> >> >> ???????????????????????. dohadam >> >> icch? k??k?? sp?heh? t??v??ch? lips? manoratha? >> >> k?mo?bhil??astar?a?ca *so?tyartha? l?las? dvayo?* >> >> >> The Vy?khy?sudh? on above verses explains that the first twelve are >> synonyms of ?icch?? (and also ) and the word ?l?las?? is a synonym of >> ?atipr?ti? >> >> >> If any other authentic Ko?a or commentary on a K?vya usage confirms that >> ?longing? or ?intense desire? is also a meaning of ?lips??, M-W can be >> accepted. Same for ?bubhuk???. >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 07:30:05 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 13:00:05 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The context is also relevant. I am copying my response sent offline to Prof Artur Karp yesterday. Hopefully this will add some value to the discussion. ------------------- I believe the verse has to be seen in its context. A Br?hma?a family, observing a penance in which they ate only once a day, went without food for several days in the summer (Jye??ha) due to a great famine (not because they voluntarily abstained from food). Then one day the Br?hma?a succeeded in getting some food. However, just as the family sat down to eat, a Br?hma?a guest (actually Dharma Himself) arrived. The family parted with their own food to feed the guest. The Br?hma?a guest then uttered these verses, saying that the host Br?hma?a had conquered Heaven by this act (giving food to the guest even when the host was himself hungry). ?Since thou hast made this gift, in a season of great difficulty, with a pure heart, thou hast, by this act of thine, conquered Heaven. Hunger destroys one's wisdom and drives off one's righteous understanding. One whose intelligence is overwhelmed by hunger casts off all fortitude. He, therefore, that conquers hunger conquers Heaven without doubt.? The Br?hma?a says hunger destroys righteous intellect (?dharmy? buddhi?), i.e. makes people give up Dharma. The Pa?catantra expresses this as ?bubhuk?ita? ki? na karoti p?pa? k???? nar? ni?karu?? bhavanti? (?What sin is not committed by one who is hungry? Those who are emaciated are merciless.?). But the Br?hma?a family did not give up Dharma even when they were emaciated. Therefore, to me the essence of ?conquering hunger? in this context is not abstention from food even when the body is hungry, rather it refers to the Br?hma?a family's [one-time] act of upholding atithi-dharma and feeding a hungry guest even though the family was itself hungry. The host Br?hma?a and his family conquered their own hunger to satisfy the hunger of a guest. Another thing to note is this is not a prescriptive statement or recommended action like ?One should conquer hunger to conquer Heaven.? The form jayate is in ?la? lak?ra? (present mood) which is not used for prescriptive statements: the ?vidhili? lak?ra? (optative mood) is. As it is not a prescriptive statement, the author does not want the reader to wilfully abstain from food in order to reach Heaven. On Apr 26, 2016 12:30 PM, "Nagaraj Paturi" wrote: bubhuk??? jayate yas tu sa svarga? jayate dhruvam bubhuk??? jayate yas tu does not mean one who loses hunger or one who can stay without being hungry. It means one who keeps one's hunger under one's control . k?udh? nir?udati praj??? dharmy?? buddhi? vyapohati means uncontrolled hunger destroys one's wisdom and drives off one's righteous understanding. Issue is bubhukShaajaya and not bubhukShaateevrataa or bubhukShaasaumyataa. On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Artur Karp wrote: > Masterly exposition. > > But (I already used this twice, sorry), there is always a but lurking > there, somewhere behind the screens. > > How do you measure 'desire'? > > To my uneducated (no Amarako?a in the list of necessary readings) mind > the desiderative form itself guarantees the connection between the word > and the idea of desire. > > 'lips?' - ?labdhum *icch?*? is self-explanatory. > > How intense the desire is - it's all a matter of context. > > Let me guess: in certain contexts 'lips?' could be used to describe a > momentary, inconsequential wish, to obtain something without explicit > effort ; in other contexts, perhaps, the wish to obtain something of > lasting value, the act itself coldly planned for. > > Same for ?bubhuk??? - intensity of the desire depends on the context. > > Who *bubhuk??? jayate* - that person overcomes the feelings, the > emotions that are linked with enjoyment of food. In our example - quite > strong emotions, considering "the season of great difficulty". > > "The choice of food metaphor in the context of bliss hails from a > tradition going back to Upani?ads, where the experience of bliss was > linked with enjoyment of food" [V. Aklujkar, *Sharing the Divine Feast*, > in: R.S. Khare (ed.), *The Eternal Food: Gastronomic Ideas and Experience > of Hindus and Buddhists*, 1992, p. 99] > > The epic story tellers do not want their heroes to be perfect, and go > around trying to do things in the "grammatick" way; they supply them with > words - to use as they see fit, not always properly; their heroes act, they > are full of, more often than not, only dimly felt emotions, and they act on > them, and are known to commit mistakes. > > And that is why we like them, and want to hear more about them, again and > again > > Let them have their emotions. > > Best, > > Artur > > 2016-04-26 3:37 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra : > >> >> >> On 25 April 2016 at 18:58, Howard Resnick
wrote: >> >>> The desiderative at times is used to indicate strong desire. Example: >>> desiderative forms of labh ? lipsu, lipsA. In MW, this can mean the simple >>> desire to gain or obtain, or ?longing for?. To long ? to have ?a strong >>> wish or desire.? >>> >>> Best, >>> Howard >>> >>> >> Monier Williams has errors. An example is meaning of the gav? as an >> ?independent word? for speech and the citation of ?i?up?lavadha 2-68 which >> is incorrect. In this case (?lips??) there is no precise citation also. >> >> >> The etymology (yoga) of ?lips?? (?labdhum icch??, labh + san + a + ??p) >> does not suggest any intensity in the desire. If one wants to go for usage >> (r??hi), it is better to cross-check with Sanskrit Ko?a-s and attested >> usages than take M-W for granted. >> >> >> As per Amarako?a (1-7-27,28), there is a clear distinction between >> ?lips?? which is listed with words for desire, and ?l?las?? which is >> explained as intense desire or longing (grammar would confirm this): >> >> >> ???????????????????????. dohadam >> >> icch? k??k?? sp?heh? t??v??ch? lips? manoratha? >> >> k?mo?bhil??astar?a?ca *so?tyartha? l?las? dvayo?* >> >> >> The Vy?khy?sudh? on above verses explains that the first twelve are >> synonyms of ?icch?? (and also ) and the word ?l?las?? is a synonym of >> ?atipr?ti? >> >> >> If any other authentic Ko?a or commentary on a K?vya usage confirms that >> ?longing? or ?intense desire? is also a meaning of ?lips??, M-W can be >> accepted. Same for ?bubhuk???. >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Tue Apr 26 07:42:59 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 09:42:59 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nagaraj, >> It means *one who keeps one's hunger under one's control* . The question is: *how *do you keep your hunger under control? To my mind (basing on my certainly simplistic concept of my own mental processes) - by taking control of, by overcoming the emotions/feelings generated by the sensation of hunger, that is - the physiological need to eat food. And these emotions/feelings are - not necessarily distinctly - expressed by the poet's choice of a desiderative derivate form. ---------------------------------------------- Greg O'Toole said somewhere: "What is necessary is that the terms and other variables in a conversation be clarified and agreed on by *all participants in this conversation*." Extending my sincere gratitude to all participants in *this here* conversation. Learning has no end. Artur Karp Warszawa Polska 2016-04-26 8:59 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : > bubhuk??? jayate yas tu sa svarga? jayate dhruvam > > bubhuk??? jayate yas tu does not mean one who loses hunger or one who can > stay without being hungry. It means one who keeps one's hunger under one's > control . > > k?udh? nir?udati praj??? dharmy?? buddhi? vyapohati > > > means uncontrolled hunger destroys one's wisdom and drives off one's > righteous understanding. > > Issue is bubhukShaajaya and not bubhukShaateevrataa or > bubhukShaasaumyataa. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Artur Karp wrote: > >> Masterly exposition. >> >> But (I already used this twice, sorry), there is always a but lurking >> there, somewhere behind the screens. >> >> How do you measure 'desire'? >> >> To my uneducated (no Amarako?a in the list of necessary readings) mind >> the desiderative form itself guarantees the connection between the word >> and the idea of desire. >> >> 'lips?' - ?labdhum *icch?*? is self-explanatory. >> >> How intense the desire is - it's all a matter of context. >> >> Let me guess: in certain contexts 'lips?' could be used to describe a >> momentary, inconsequential wish, to obtain something without explicit >> effort ; in other contexts, perhaps, the wish to obtain something of >> lasting value, the act itself coldly planned for. >> >> Same for ?bubhuk??? - intensity of the desire depends on the context. >> >> Who *bubhuk??? jayate* - that person overcomes the feelings, the >> emotions that are linked with enjoyment of food. In our example - quite >> strong emotions, considering "the season of great difficulty". >> >> "The choice of food metaphor in the context of bliss hails from a >> tradition going back to Upani?ads, where the experience of bliss was >> linked with enjoyment of food" [V. Aklujkar, *Sharing the Divine Feast*, >> in: R.S. Khare (ed.), *The Eternal Food: Gastronomic Ideas and >> Experience of Hindus and Buddhists*, 1992, p. 99] >> >> The epic story tellers do not want their heroes to be perfect, and go >> around trying to do things in the "grammatick" way; they supply them with >> words - to use as they see fit, not always properly; their heroes act, they >> are full of, more often than not, only dimly felt emotions, and they act on >> them, and are known to commit mistakes. >> >> And that is why we like them, and want to hear more about them, again and >> again >> >> Let them have their emotions. >> >> Best, >> >> Artur >> >> 2016-04-26 3:37 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra : >> >>> >>> >>> On 25 April 2016 at 18:58, Howard Resnick
wrote: >>> >>>> The desiderative at times is used to indicate strong desire. Example: >>>> desiderative forms of labh ? lipsu, lipsA. In MW, this can mean the simple >>>> desire to gain or obtain, or ?longing for?. To long ? to have ?a strong >>>> wish or desire.? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Howard >>>> >>>> >>> Monier Williams has errors. An example is meaning of the gav? as an >>> ?independent word? for speech and the citation of ?i?up?lavadha 2-68 which >>> is incorrect. In this case (?lips??) there is no precise citation also. >>> >>> >>> The etymology (yoga) of ?lips?? (?labdhum icch??, labh + san + a + ??p) >>> does not suggest any intensity in the desire. If one wants to go for usage >>> (r??hi), it is better to cross-check with Sanskrit Ko?a-s and attested >>> usages than take M-W for granted. >>> >>> >>> As per Amarako?a (1-7-27,28), there is a clear distinction between >>> ?lips?? which is listed with words for desire, and ?l?las?? which is >>> explained as intense desire or longing (grammar would confirm this): >>> >>> >>> ???????????????????????. dohadam >>> >>> icch? k??k?? sp?heh? t??v??ch? lips? manoratha? >>> >>> k?mo?bhil??astar?a?ca *so?tyartha? l?las? dvayo?* >>> >>> >>> The Vy?khy?sudh? on above verses explains that the first twelve are >>> synonyms of ?icch?? (and also ) and the word ?l?las?? is a synonym of >>> ?atipr?ti? >>> >>> >>> If any other authentic Ko?a or commentary on a K?vya usage confirms that >>> ?longing? or ?intense desire? is also a meaning of ?lips??, M-W can be >>> accepted. Same for ?bubhuk???. >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 08:42:04 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 14:12:04 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >The question is: *how *do you keep your hunger under control? --- Sri Nityanandji has already said: Therefore, to me the essence of ?conquering hunger? in this context is not abstention from food even when the body is hungry, rather it refers to the Br?hma?a family's [one-time] act of upholding atithi-dharma and feeding a hungry guest even though the family was itself hungry. The host Br?hma?a and his family conquered their own hunger to satisfy the hunger of a guest. So *how *do you keep your hunger under control? -- by prioritizing some other motive /drive than hunger, hunger gets automatically controlled. A student skipping his meal on account of being absorbed in his book-reading in the library, a scientist not feeling his hunger on account of his immersion in his experiment in the laboratory can be said to have bubukShaajaya. On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > Dear Nagaraj, > > > >> It means *one who keeps one's hunger under one's control* . > > The question is: *how *do you keep your hunger under control? > > To my mind (basing on my certainly simplistic concept of my own mental > processes) - by taking control of, by overcoming the emotions/feelings > generated by the sensation of hunger, that is - the physiological need to > eat food. > > And these emotions/feelings are - not necessarily distinctly - expressed > by the poet's choice of a desiderative derivate form. > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Greg O'Toole said somewhere: "What is necessary is that the terms and > other variables in a conversation be clarified and agreed on by *all > participants in this conversation*." > > Extending my sincere gratitude to all participants in *this here* > conversation. Learning has no end. > > Artur Karp > > Warszawa > Polska > > 2016-04-26 8:59 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : > >> bubhuk??? jayate yas tu sa svarga? jayate dhruvam >> >> bubhuk??? jayate yas tu does not mean one who loses hunger or one who >> can stay without being hungry. It means one who keeps one's hunger under >> one's control . >> >> k?udh? nir?udati praj??? dharmy?? buddhi? vyapohati >> >> >> means uncontrolled hunger destroys one's wisdom and drives off one's >> righteous understanding. >> >> Issue is bubhukShaajaya and not bubhukShaateevrataa or >> bubhukShaasaumyataa. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Artur Karp wrote: >> >>> Masterly exposition. >>> >>> But (I already used this twice, sorry), there is always a but lurking >>> there, somewhere behind the screens. >>> >>> How do you measure 'desire'? >>> >>> To my uneducated (no Amarako?a in the list of necessary readings) mind >>> the desiderative form itself guarantees the connection between the word >>> and the idea of desire. >>> >>> 'lips?' - ?labdhum *icch?*? is self-explanatory. >>> >>> How intense the desire is - it's all a matter of context. >>> >>> Let me guess: in certain contexts 'lips?' could be used to describe a >>> momentary, inconsequential wish, to obtain something without explicit >>> effort ; in other contexts, perhaps, the wish to obtain something of >>> lasting value, the act itself coldly planned for. >>> >>> Same for ?bubhuk??? - intensity of the desire depends on the context. >>> >>> Who *bubhuk??? jayate* - that person overcomes the feelings, the >>> emotions that are linked with enjoyment of food. In our example - quite >>> strong emotions, considering "the season of great difficulty". >>> >>> "The choice of food metaphor in the context of bliss hails from a >>> tradition going back to Upani?ads, where the experience of bliss was >>> linked with enjoyment of food" [V. Aklujkar, *Sharing the Divine Feast*, >>> in: R.S. Khare (ed.), *The Eternal Food: Gastronomic Ideas and >>> Experience of Hindus and Buddhists*, 1992, p. 99] >>> >>> The epic story tellers do not want their heroes to be perfect, and go >>> around trying to do things in the "grammatick" way; they supply them with >>> words - to use as they see fit, not always properly; their heroes act, they >>> are full of, more often than not, only dimly felt emotions, and they act on >>> them, and are known to commit mistakes. >>> >>> And that is why we like them, and want to hear more about them, again >>> and again >>> >>> Let them have their emotions. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Artur >>> >>> 2016-04-26 3:37 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 25 April 2016 at 18:58, Howard Resnick
wrote: >>>> >>>>> The desiderative at times is used to indicate strong desire. Example: >>>>> desiderative forms of labh ? lipsu, lipsA. In MW, this can mean the simple >>>>> desire to gain or obtain, or ?longing for?. To long ? to have ?a strong >>>>> wish or desire.? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Howard >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Monier Williams has errors. An example is meaning of the gav? as an >>>> ?independent word? for speech and the citation of ?i?up?lavadha 2-68 which >>>> is incorrect. In this case (?lips??) there is no precise citation also. >>>> >>>> >>>> The etymology (yoga) of ?lips?? (?labdhum icch??, labh + san + a + ??p) >>>> does not suggest any intensity in the desire. If one wants to go for usage >>>> (r??hi), it is better to cross-check with Sanskrit Ko?a-s and attested >>>> usages than take M-W for granted. >>>> >>>> >>>> As per Amarako?a (1-7-27,28), there is a clear distinction between >>>> ?lips?? which is listed with words for desire, and ?l?las?? which is >>>> explained as intense desire or longing (grammar would confirm this): >>>> >>>> >>>> ???????????????????????. dohadam >>>> >>>> icch? k??k?? sp?heh? t??v??ch? lips? manoratha? >>>> >>>> k?mo?bhil??astar?a?ca *so?tyartha? l?las? dvayo?* >>>> >>>> >>>> The Vy?khy?sudh? on above verses explains that the first twelve are >>>> synonyms of ?icch?? (and also ) and the word ?l?las?? is a synonym of >>>> ?atipr?ti? >>>> >>>> >>>> If any other authentic Ko?a or commentary on a K?vya usage confirms >>>> that ?longing? or ?intense desire? is also a meaning of ?lips??, M-W can be >>>> accepted. Same for ?bubhuk???. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Tue Apr 26 09:18:49 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 11:18:49 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nagaraj, Motive and method. motive: atithi-seva ---> if selfless, ultimate Liberation; method: bubhukSAjaya (bubhukSA with its load of feelings/emotions - put in there in the process of its formation as a *desiderative* derivate) Would *THAT* make sense? Artur 2016-04-26 10:42 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : > >The question is: *how *do you keep your hunger under control? > > --- Sri Nityanandji has already said: > > Therefore, to me the essence of ?conquering hunger? in this context is not > abstention from food even when the body is hungry, rather it refers to the > Br?hma?a family's [one-time] act of upholding atithi-dharma and feeding a > hungry guest even though the family was itself hungry. The host Br?hma?a > and his family conquered their own hunger to satisfy the hunger of a guest. > > So > *how *do you keep your hunger under control? > > -- by prioritizing some other motive /drive than hunger, hunger gets > automatically controlled. > > A student skipping his meal on account of being absorbed in his > book-reading in the library, a scientist not feeling his hunger on account > of his immersion in his experiment in the laboratory can be said to have > bubukShaajaya. > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > >> Dear Nagaraj, >> >> >> >> It means *one who keeps one's hunger under one's control* . >> >> The question is: *how *do you keep your hunger under control? >> >> To my mind (basing on my certainly simplistic concept of my own mental >> processes) - by taking control of, by overcoming the emotions/feelings >> generated by the sensation of hunger, that is - the physiological need to >> eat food. >> >> And these emotions/feelings are - not necessarily distinctly - expressed >> by the poet's choice of a desiderative derivate form. >> >> ---------------------------------------------- >> >> Greg O'Toole said somewhere: "What is necessary is that the terms and >> other variables in a conversation be clarified and agreed on by *all >> participants in this conversation*." >> >> Extending my sincere gratitude to all participants in *this here* >> conversation. Learning has no end. >> >> Artur Karp >> >> Warszawa >> Polska >> >> 2016-04-26 8:59 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : >> >>> bubhuk??? jayate yas tu sa svarga? jayate dhruvam >>> >>> bubhuk??? jayate yas tu does not mean one who loses hunger or one who >>> can stay without being hungry. It means one who keeps one's hunger under >>> one's control . >>> >>> k?udh? nir?udati praj??? dharmy?? buddhi? vyapohati >>> >>> >>> means uncontrolled hunger destroys one's wisdom and drives off one's >>> righteous understanding. >>> >>> Issue is bubhukShaajaya and not bubhukShaateevrataa or >>> bubhukShaasaumyataa. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Artur Karp wrote: >>> >>>> Masterly exposition. >>>> >>>> But (I already used this twice, sorry), there is always a but lurking >>>> there, somewhere behind the screens. >>>> >>>> How do you measure 'desire'? >>>> >>>> To my uneducated (no Amarako?a in the list of necessary readings) mind >>>> the desiderative form itself guarantees the connection between the >>>> word and the idea of desire. >>>> >>>> 'lips?' - ?labdhum *icch?*? is self-explanatory. >>>> >>>> How intense the desire is - it's all a matter of context. >>>> >>>> Let me guess: in certain contexts 'lips?' could be used to describe a >>>> momentary, inconsequential wish, to obtain something without explicit >>>> effort ; in other contexts, perhaps, the wish to obtain something of >>>> lasting value, the act itself coldly planned for. >>>> >>>> Same for ?bubhuk??? - intensity of the desire depends on the context. >>>> >>>> Who *bubhuk??? jayate* - that person overcomes the feelings, the >>>> emotions that are linked with enjoyment of food. In our example - quite >>>> strong emotions, considering "the season of great difficulty". >>>> >>>> "The choice of food metaphor in the context of bliss hails from a >>>> tradition going back to Upani?ads, where the experience of bliss was >>>> linked with enjoyment of food" [V. Aklujkar, *Sharing the Divine Feast*, >>>> in: R.S. Khare (ed.), *The Eternal Food: Gastronomic Ideas and >>>> Experience of Hindus and Buddhists*, 1992, p. 99] >>>> >>>> The epic story tellers do not want their heroes to be perfect, and go >>>> around trying to do things in the "grammatick" way; they supply them with >>>> words - to use as they see fit, not always properly; their heroes act, they >>>> are full of, more often than not, only dimly felt emotions, and they act on >>>> them, and are known to commit mistakes. >>>> >>>> And that is why we like them, and want to hear more about them, again >>>> and again >>>> >>>> Let them have their emotions. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Artur >>>> >>>> 2016-04-26 3:37 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra : >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 25 April 2016 at 18:58, Howard Resnick
wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The desiderative at times is used to indicate strong desire. Example: >>>>>> desiderative forms of labh ? lipsu, lipsA. In MW, this can mean the simple >>>>>> desire to gain or obtain, or ?longing for?. To long ? to have ?a strong >>>>>> wish or desire.? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Howard >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Monier Williams has errors. An example is meaning of the gav? as an >>>>> ?independent word? for speech and the citation of ?i?up?lavadha 2-68 which >>>>> is incorrect. In this case (?lips??) there is no precise citation also. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The etymology (yoga) of ?lips?? (?labdhum icch??, labh + san + a + ??p) >>>>> does not suggest any intensity in the desire. If one wants to go for usage >>>>> (r??hi), it is better to cross-check with Sanskrit Ko?a-s and >>>>> attested usages than take M-W for granted. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As per Amarako?a (1-7-27,28), there is a clear distinction between >>>>> ?lips?? which is listed with words for desire, and ?l?las?? which is >>>>> explained as intense desire or longing (grammar would confirm this): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ???????????????????????. dohadam >>>>> >>>>> icch? k??k?? sp?heh? t??v??ch? lips? manoratha? >>>>> >>>>> k?mo?bhil??astar?a?ca *so?tyartha? l?las? dvayo?* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The Vy?khy?sudh? on above verses explains that the first twelve are >>>>> synonyms of ?icch?? (and also ) and the word ?l?las?? is a synonym of >>>>> ?atipr?ti? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If any other authentic Ko?a or commentary on a K?vya usage confirms >>>>> that ?longing? or ?intense desire? is also a meaning of ?lips??, M-W can be >>>>> accepted. Same for ?bubhuk???. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kleczek.r at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 09:34:15 2016 From: kleczek.r at gmail.com (Rafal Kleczek) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 15:04:15 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Yama/niyama_in_P=C4=81=C5=9Bupata_and_Yoga?= Message-ID: Dear list members, I have two questions regarding possible parallels to the P??upata understanding of yama and niyama regulations, as explained by Kau??inya in his *Pa?c?rthabh??ya*. 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama regulations to be permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, depending on time, place, etc.? Is it a common understanding of the division between yama and niyama among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches of ?aivism? 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama regulations? With best wishes, Rafal Kleczek (University of Hyderabad) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sprajapati22 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 26 11:00:23 2016 From: sprajapati22 at yahoo.com (Dr. Sweta Prajapati) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 11:00:23 +0000 Subject: hello In-Reply-To: <1144586798.2444658.1461668423675.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1144586798.2444658.1461668423675.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Members?Can anybody help me in getting email ID of ?Dr. Stephan Hillyer Levitt, New York ? Dr. Sweta PrajapatiDirector (I/C)Oriental InstituteOpp. Palace Gate,Palace Road,Baroda - 390001M: +91 9898472669E-mail ID. sprajapati22 at yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu Tue Apr 26 12:02:25 2016 From: edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu (edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 08:02:25 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84=C2=81=C3=85=C2=9Bupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama regulations to be > permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, depending on time, place, > etc.? Is it a common understanding of the division between yama and niyama > among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches of ??aivism? I don't recall reading this in any YS commentary. It probably comes from the idea that it is after the yama verse that Patanjali stresses (with uncharacteristic emphasis, one might add, both in terms of his own overall tone, and in terms of the sutra penchant for non-repetition or redundancy), that they are inviolable (i.e. he chose not to state this after the niyama verse which follows the yama verse). However, 3 of the niyamas are listed under kriya yoga in the opening verse of chapter 2, so, given they are repeated again in the astanga section there is no sense in the YS tradition that they are optional. > 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama regulations? The Bhagavata Purana has 10 yamas. If the Pasupata texts have 10, I would probably search the Siva, Skandha or Linga puranas for precedents. With best wishes, Edwin Bryant. From kleczek.r at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 16:23:48 2016 From: kleczek.r at gmail.com (Rafal Kleczek) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 21:53:48 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: <2162D1F0-BB3D-430F-8AD1-4C81CF4222C7@g.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Thank you very much for your observations. I have not been aware of the variations on the concept of yama/niyama in Puranas and later Yogic texts, it is most interesting. The subject of difference in "niyama" regulations for ascetics at different stages in Kau??inya's theory is quite interesting. Kau??inya himself considers it a peculiar trait of the system, or scripture ("tantra"). At the same time, a similar differentiation of niyama rules seems to be accepted by some early Naiy?yikas, who otherwise seem to follow quite closely the theory of Pata?jali (with regard to the practice of Yoga). Even though it seems true, that Ny?ya came under influence of P??upata authors at some point, this idea of differentiation of niyamas is hinted at even in V?tsy?yana's Bh??ya--which was written too early to speak about P??upata influence, I think. Hence the search for other possible sources of this peculiar variation. With best wishes, Rafal On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell wrote: > Dear Rafal, > > Later medieval tantric and Ha?hayoga treatises sometimes include both 10 > yamas and 10 niyamas. For example, Chapter 25 of the *S?a?rada?* > *tilakatantra*, the *?ivayogad?pik?*, *Yogayaj??valkya*, and many > others ? and here, I imagine, particularly for the ?aiva texts, they might > be drawing from the earlier P??upata yoga traditions. > > As always, across these yoga texts and traditions, there is fluidity and > malleability, but they seem to all draw from a shared yama-niyama palette, > if you will. The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on > a more sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? > in the *?ivayogad?pik?*. > > Yet, often the medieval yoga texts appear to explicitly omit them, such as > Sv?tm?r?ma?s *Ha?haprad?pik?* (although a later 10-chapter version of > this text does include yamas and niyamas), and thus we are left to > speculate on their optionality. Perhaps they were left to be filled in by a > guru, or elsewhere from a sectarian tradition, or were in fact left out of > yogic praxis entirely (although I doubt this). But I think it?s safe to say > if they are included in a prescriptive yoga text, they were not considered > optional for that author, but rather par for the course. This is most clear > in the PY? and its commentaries, as Prof. Bryant astutely notes, but I > think also holds for the later medieval texts as well. > > Best wishes, > > Seth > > --- > > *Seth D. Powell* > *Doctoral Student* > Committee on the Study of Religion > Harvard University > > *ATG Student Consultant* > Academic Technology Group (ATG) > Harvard University Information Technology > > *p* 707 494 4721 > *e* sethpowell at g.harvard.edu > > > > > > > > On Apr 26, 2016, at 8:02 AM, edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu wrote: > > > 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama regulations to be > permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, depending on time, place, > etc.? Is it a common understanding of the division between yama and niyama > among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches of ??aivism? > > > I don't recall reading this in any YS commentary. It probably comes from > the idea that it is after the yama verse that Patanjali stresses (with > uncharacteristic emphasis, one might add, both in terms of his own overall > tone, and in terms of the sutra penchant for non-repetition or > redundancy), that they are inviolable (i.e. he chose not to state this > after the niyama verse which follows the yama verse). However, 3 of the > niyamas are listed under kriya yoga in the opening verse of chapter 2, so, > given they are repeated again in the astanga section there is no sense in > the YS tradition that they are optional. > > 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama regulations? > > > The Bhagavata Purana has 10 yamas. If the Pasupata texts have 10, I would > probably search the Siva, Skandha or Linga puranas for precedents. > > With best wishes, Edwin Bryant. > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 16:28:32 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 21:58:32 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry for the delay. I was teaching. Yes, in a way. Atithi seva ---> Svarga with karmaphalaakaankshaa / moksha with karmaphalasanyaasa path/precondition ----- bubhukShaajaya. On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 2:48 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > Dear Nagaraj, > > Motive and method. > > motive: atithi-seva ---> if selfless, ultimate Liberation; method: > bubhukSAjaya (bubhukSA with its load of feelings/emotions - put in there in > the process of its formation as a *desiderative* derivate) > > Would *THAT* make sense? > > Artur > > 2016-04-26 10:42 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : > >> >The question is: *how *do you keep your hunger under control? >> >> --- Sri Nityanandji has already said: >> >> Therefore, to me the essence of ?conquering hunger? in this context is >> not abstention from food even when the body is hungry, rather it refers to >> the Br?hma?a family's [one-time] act of upholding atithi-dharma and feeding >> a hungry guest even though the family was itself hungry. The host Br?hma?a >> and his family conquered their own hunger to satisfy the hunger of a guest. >> >> So >> *how *do you keep your hunger under control? >> >> -- by prioritizing some other motive /drive than hunger, hunger gets >> automatically controlled. >> >> A student skipping his meal on account of being absorbed in his >> book-reading in the library, a scientist not feeling his hunger on account >> of his immersion in his experiment in the laboratory can be said to have >> bubukShaajaya. >> >> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >> >>> Dear Nagaraj, >>> >>> >>> >> It means *one who keeps one's hunger under one's control* . >>> >>> The question is: *how *do you keep your hunger under control? >>> >>> To my mind (basing on my certainly simplistic concept of my own mental >>> processes) - by taking control of, by overcoming the emotions/feelings >>> generated by the sensation of hunger, that is - the physiological need to >>> eat food. >>> >>> And these emotions/feelings are - not necessarily distinctly - expressed >>> by the poet's choice of a desiderative derivate form. >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Greg O'Toole said somewhere: "What is necessary is that the terms and >>> other variables in a conversation be clarified and agreed on by *all >>> participants in this conversation*." >>> >>> Extending my sincere gratitude to all participants in *this here* >>> conversation. Learning has no end. >>> >>> Artur Karp >>> >>> Warszawa >>> Polska >>> >>> 2016-04-26 8:59 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : >>> >>>> bubhuk??? jayate yas tu sa svarga? jayate dhruvam >>>> >>>> bubhuk??? jayate yas tu does not mean one who loses hunger or one who >>>> can stay without being hungry. It means one who keeps one's hunger under >>>> one's control . >>>> >>>> k?udh? nir?udati praj??? dharmy?? buddhi? vyapohati >>>> >>>> >>>> means uncontrolled hunger destroys one's wisdom and drives off one's >>>> righteous understanding. >>>> >>>> Issue is bubhukShaajaya and not bubhukShaateevrataa or >>>> bubhukShaasaumyataa. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Artur Karp wrote: >>>> >>>>> Masterly exposition. >>>>> >>>>> But (I already used this twice, sorry), there is always a but lurking >>>>> there, somewhere behind the screens. >>>>> >>>>> How do you measure 'desire'? >>>>> >>>>> To my uneducated (no Amarako?a in the list of necessary readings) >>>>> mind the desiderative form itself guarantees the connection between >>>>> the word and the idea of desire. >>>>> >>>>> 'lips?' - ?labdhum *icch?*? is self-explanatory. >>>>> >>>>> How intense the desire is - it's all a matter of context. >>>>> >>>>> Let me guess: in certain contexts 'lips?' could be used to describe a >>>>> momentary, inconsequential wish, to obtain something without explicit >>>>> effort ; in other contexts, perhaps, the wish to obtain something of >>>>> lasting value, the act itself coldly planned for. >>>>> >>>>> Same for ?bubhuk??? - intensity of the desire depends on the context. >>>>> >>>>> Who *bubhuk??? jayate* - that person overcomes the feelings, the >>>>> emotions that are linked with enjoyment of food. In our example - quite >>>>> strong emotions, considering "the season of great difficulty". >>>>> >>>>> "The choice of food metaphor in the context of bliss hails from a >>>>> tradition going back to Upani?ads, where the experience of bliss was >>>>> linked with enjoyment of food" [V. Aklujkar, *Sharing the Divine >>>>> Feast*, in: R.S. Khare (ed.), *The Eternal Food: Gastronomic Ideas >>>>> and Experience of Hindus and Buddhists*, 1992, p. 99] >>>>> >>>>> The epic story tellers do not want their heroes to be perfect, and go >>>>> around trying to do things in the "grammatick" way; they supply them with >>>>> words - to use as they see fit, not always properly; their heroes act, they >>>>> are full of, more often than not, only dimly felt emotions, and they act on >>>>> them, and are known to commit mistakes. >>>>> >>>>> And that is why we like them, and want to hear more about them, again >>>>> and again >>>>> >>>>> Let them have their emotions. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Artur >>>>> >>>>> 2016-04-26 3:37 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra : >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 25 April 2016 at 18:58, Howard Resnick
wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The desiderative at times is used to indicate strong desire. >>>>>>> Example: desiderative forms of labh ? lipsu, lipsA. In MW, this can mean >>>>>>> the simple desire to gain or obtain, or ?longing for?. To long ? to have ?a >>>>>>> strong wish or desire.? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Howard >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Monier Williams has errors. An example is meaning of the gav? as an >>>>>> ?independent word? for speech and the citation of ?i?up?lavadha 2-68 which >>>>>> is incorrect. In this case (?lips??) there is no precise citation also. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The etymology (yoga) of ?lips?? (?labdhum icch??, labh + san + a + >>>>>> ??p) does not suggest any intensity in the desire. If one wants to >>>>>> go for usage (r??hi), it is better to cross-check with Sanskrit >>>>>> Ko?a-s and attested usages than take M-W for granted. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> As per Amarako?a (1-7-27,28), there is a clear distinction between >>>>>> ?lips?? which is listed with words for desire, and ?l?las?? which is >>>>>> explained as intense desire or longing (grammar would confirm this): >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ???????????????????????. dohadam >>>>>> >>>>>> icch? k??k?? sp?heh? t??v??ch? lips? manoratha? >>>>>> >>>>>> k?mo?bhil??astar?a?ca *so?tyartha? l?las? dvayo?* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The Vy?khy?sudh? on above verses explains that the first twelve are >>>>>> synonyms of ?icch?? (and also ) and the word ?l?las?? is a synonym of >>>>>> ?atipr?ti? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If any other authentic Ko?a or commentary on a K?vya usage confirms >>>>>> that ?longing? or ?intense desire? is also a meaning of ?lips??, M-W can be >>>>>> accepted. Same for ?bubhuk???. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>> >>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>> >>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>> >>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>> >>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.zimmermann at uni-hamburg.de Tue Apr 26 20:19:53 2016 From: michael.zimmermann at uni-hamburg.de (Michael Zimmermann) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 16 22:19:53 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_The_Foundation_History_of_the_Nuns=E2=80=99_Order_by_Bhikkhu_An=C4=81layo?= Message-ID: <000001d19ff8$feca6d80$fc5f4880$@uni-hamburg.de> Dear colleagues, The Numata Center for Buddhist Studies at Hamburg University is happy to announce a new publication: The Foundation History of the Nuns? Order by Bhikkhu An?layo Hamburg Buddhist Studies Series 6 Series Editors: Steffen D?ll & Michael Zimmermann Hardcover, 278 pages, ? 29.80 projektverlag, Bochum/Freiburg 2016 ISSN 2190-6769 ISBN 978-3-89733-387-1 This book is a companion to Bhikkhu An?layo?s previous studies of The Genesis of the Bodhisattva Ideal and The Dawn of Abhidharma. In the present book he examines the foundation history of the Buddhist order of nuns, based on a detailed study of the canonical accounts of this event preserved in Chinese, P?li, Sanskrit, and Tibetan. An?layo investigates how the different and at times conflicting parts of the textual account of this particular episode gradually evolved to constitute the foundation history in the way in which it is now extant. His findings put into perspective the Buddha?s refusal to found an order of nuns as well as the prediction that the going forth of women supposedly spells decline for the whole Buddhist tradition, showing how these elements would have arisen and then become part of the foundation history. For more information: https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/en/publikationen.html, http://www.projektverlag.de/The-Foundation-History-of-the-Nuns-Order ------------------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Michael Zimmermann Numata Center for Buddhist Studies Universit?t Hamburg Alsterterrasse 1 D-20354 Hamburg Germany Michael.Zimmermann at uni-hamburg.de http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 05:16:33 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 10:46:33 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: <2D353BFB-AEC4-4ED9-8B20-13CDC3C8DE4F@earthlink.net> Message-ID: The narrative under question is a legend. Legends are a genre of folk narratives. They differ from 'history' in having unrealistic and scientifically not verified elements. Dhanthar Baid is such a character without historical evidence. The 'visionary' (dreamlike and as such requiring symbolic interpretation , are part of legends as much as of the other genres of folk narratives. One of the distinctions of modern studies of culture in contrast to traditional localized studies of the native cultures by the natives, is comparative study. For such a comparison we may have to look at the motifs of cannibalism in cultures outside India. The following links provide some such information: http://listverse.com/2012/12/05/top-10-truly-disturbing-fairy-tales/ http://www.cracked.com/article_15962_the-gruesome-origins-5-popular-fairy-tales.html http://www.cultcase.com/2008/09/five-creepy-cannibalism-themes-in.html Sharing pdf of a dissertation and snapshots of an Encyclopedia article. For a comparative study of historical interpretations of cannibalism in reality, the following links may be useful: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/?no-ist http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141858/Tough-news-swallow-Europeans-saw-wrong-cannibalism-1900s-new-books-claim.html Comparative studies may help in understanding both commonalities and distinct specifics. To understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other components of each of the cultural complex may help. -N On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:51 AM, rajam wrote: > ///Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of > the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, /// > > Hmmm ? this certainly is a new speculation as far as I am concerned! For > me, ?inoculation? is something medicinal and physical, not ritual and > literary. I?d like to learn more about it. Please educate me. > > > ///the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm itself./// > > This statement is even more confusing. 'Dead spirit harming itself?' What > does that mean? You should educate me. > > ++++++++++ > > There are quite a few references to ?cannibalism? in Old Tamil (Sangam > literature, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai), Kalingathupparani, and a later > hagiographic Tamil literature (Periyapuranam) perhaps depicting the > later-developed k?p?lika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalika) > tradition. > > However, none of the Tamil references point to ?acquiring? the other > party?s (== the consumed ones?) flesh or life. And, the consumed ones were > not always a king?s enemies. > > I wish scholars would abstain from making sweeping statements about a > foreign culture/literature. > > Thanks and regards, > rajam > > > On Apr 25, 2016, at 12:46 PM, George Hart wrote: > > This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don?t think it > applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. Rather, the > purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead person by > creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being that the dead > spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the strength of > someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the purpose of > consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has shown by being > defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed you to prevail. > In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war sacrifice, in which body > parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked (boiled), though there is no > evidence that the resultant ?food? was actually eaten. And in the > Kali?kattuppara?i, there are long descriptions of ghosts and macabre > deities feasting on the war dead. George > > On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > > ?The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you > inherit his powers. In ?The Story of the Grandmother? , a folk version of > ?Little Red Riding Hood? the girl eats his grandmother?s flesh and drinks > her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism, > but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix > which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older > often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified > receiving magical power.? > ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around the > World > > By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365 > > On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> Prof. Karp, >> >> You must be aware of these words from the Bible. ?You Must Eat My Flesh? >> I found a discussion here: >> >> http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh >> >> There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words. >> >> What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and drink >> his blood. >> >> There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two >> expressions. >> >> Regards, >> >> -N >> >> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Dean Michael Anderson >>> To: Artur Karp >>> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya , indology < >>> indology at list.indology.info> >>> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >>> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in the >>> remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare European >>> saintly relics. >>> >>> Grisly, indeed. >>> >>> Dean >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Artur Karp >>> *To:* Dean Michael Anderson >>> *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya ; indology < >>> indology at list.indology.info> >>> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >>> >>> In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s >>> Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that >>> his healing powers would not be lost. >>> >>> Best, also - >>> >>> Artur >>> >>> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson < >>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>: >>> >>> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" tantra. >>> I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places with >>> famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard the >>> bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I have >>> read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen it. >>> It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians and >>> Nepalis. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Dean Anderson >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >>> >>> In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends >>> of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, >>> ? >>> Princess Niwal Da?, As su >>> ?n >>> g >>> ?b >>> y t >>> ?wo >>> s >>> ?c >>> a >>> ?v >>> e >>> ?n >>> gers >>> ?f? >>> ro >>> m >>> Bi >>> ?b >>> iy?l >>> ?V >>> illage >>> ?n >>> ear A >>> ?mb >>> ?l?), >>> ? >>> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - >>> >>> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain >>> his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> >>> Artur Karp >>> >>> Warsaw >>> Poland >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. 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Name: CannibalismEncyclopediaarticle-3.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35763 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ganesan at ifpindia.org Wed Apr 27 05:49:27 2016 From: ganesan at ifpindia.org (Dr. T. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 11:19:27 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <572052E7.2010601@ifpindia.org> On 26-04-2016 21:53, Rafal Kleczek wrote: > T/he ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on a more > sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as //s?an?kara-pu?janam? in the > //?ivayogad?pik?//. /// Sankarapuujanam need be taken to be 'a sectarian flavour'. For, Isvara denotes only Siva as we find in all the Upanishads and other texts; Svetasvataropanishad repeats this word many times and it can not be interpreted in other ways. As Kalidasa says in the invocatory verse of his drama, Vikramorvasiyam, ved?nte?u yam?hurekapuru?a?vy?pya sthita?rodas? / yasminn??vara ityananyavi?aya??abdo yath?rth?k?ara?/ Isvara denotes only Siva from the early period. Kalidasa is of the firm view that the entire Vedanta corpus (ved?nte?u) proclaims Siva to be the highest Reality (puru?a) that pervades all the universe. Kalidasa and Patanjali definitely belong to very early period. Thus by ??v?ra-pra?idh?na it is fully plausible and also possible, that Patanjali meant only worship of Siva. And, worshipping a supreme God need not be interpreted as ''sectarian''. One cannot ''worship'' a supreme reality which is nirguna. Ganesan -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Wed Apr 27 08:00:31 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 10:00:31 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nagaraj >> A legend. Definitely - more than that. Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it? Now, considering the milieu in which the epic (I'll insist on using this term - OK - folk epic) was created and recreated, I am more than just curious about the *channels of transmission* - many of the motives present in the text have their origin in the Rajput lore (which, in its turn, freely uses Sanskrit epics narrative material). Dhanatthar is The Healer, per se - in his earlier personification as Dhanvantari it was he who brought out from the depths of the primeval ocean the pot with amrita, the Nectar of Immortality. In our times his powers weaken, he is unable to counteract The Virulent Serpent's (Tatig Nag, epic Takshaka) poison - and so he asks his disciples to eat the flesh of their dying Master - so that his great healing powers are not lost to humanity. That motif relates the epic to tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. Some others have their source in folk-lore; spells found in the text belong to medicinal magic lore. The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and then using them freely in their own performances. I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W India's culture. In fact, their text can be easily made into a scenario for one of those C-class Hindi movies, perhaps - even a series of such movies. I, personally, would guarantee their instant popularity. My Polish translation of "Princess Niwal-Dai"/"?ahr Safidon ki Kahani" is ready, it's going to be published, hopefully soon, under the title "Daughter of a Thousand Serpents" ("C?rka Tysi?ca W???w"). In some, again hopefully near, future, the text, together with the Astika-parvan of the Mbh., is going to be used in a planned comparative study, under the working title: "?ahr Safidon [...] and Astika-Parvan: Two Strategies for Survival". Best, from Warsaw, Artur 2016-04-27 7:16 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : > The narrative under question is a legend. Legends are a genre of folk > narratives. They differ from 'history' in having unrealistic and > scientifically not verified elements. Dhanthar Baid is such a character > without historical evidence. The 'visionary' (dreamlike and as such > requiring symbolic interpretation , are part of legends as much as of the > other genres of folk narratives. > > One of the distinctions of modern studies of culture in contrast to > traditional localized studies of the native cultures by the natives, is > comparative study. > > For such a comparison we may have to look at the motifs of cannibalism in > cultures outside India. The following links provide some such information: > > http://listverse.com/2012/12/05/top-10-truly-disturbing-fairy-tales/ > > > http://www.cracked.com/article_15962_the-gruesome-origins-5-popular-fairy-tales.html > http://www.cultcase.com/2008/09/five-creepy-cannibalism-themes-in.html > > Sharing pdf of a dissertation and snapshots of an Encyclopedia article. > > For a comparative study of historical interpretations of cannibalism in > reality, the following links may be useful: > > > http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/ > > > http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/?no-ist > > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141858/Tough-news-swallow-Europeans-saw-wrong-cannibalism-1900s-new-books-claim.html > > Comparative studies may help in understanding both commonalities and > distinct specifics. > > To understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other > components of each of the cultural complex may help. > > -N > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:51 AM, rajam wrote: > >> ///Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of >> the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, /// >> >> Hmmm ? this certainly is a new speculation as far as I am concerned! For >> me, ?inoculation? is something medicinal and physical, not ritual and >> literary. I?d like to learn more about it. Please educate me. >> >> >> ///the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm itself./// >> >> This statement is even more confusing. 'Dead spirit harming itself?' What >> does that mean? You should educate me. >> >> ++++++++++ >> >> There are quite a few references to ?cannibalism? in Old Tamil (Sangam >> literature, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai), Kalingathupparani, and a later >> hagiographic Tamil literature (Periyapuranam) perhaps depicting the >> later-developed k?p?lika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalika) >> tradition. >> >> However, none of the Tamil references point to ?acquiring? the other >> party?s (== the consumed ones?) flesh or life. And, the consumed ones were >> not always a king?s enemies. >> >> I wish scholars would abstain from making sweeping statements about a >> foreign culture/literature. >> >> Thanks and regards, >> rajam >> >> >> On Apr 25, 2016, at 12:46 PM, George Hart wrote: >> >> This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don?t think it >> applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. Rather, the >> purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead person by >> creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being that the dead >> spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the strength of >> someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the purpose of >> consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has shown by being >> defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed you to prevail. >> In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war sacrifice, in which body >> parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked (boiled), though there is no >> evidence that the resultant ?food? was actually eaten. And in the >> Kali?kattuppara?i, there are long descriptions of ghosts and macabre >> deities feasting on the war dead. George >> >> On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi >> wrote: >> >> ?The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you >> inherit his powers. In ?The Story of the Grandmother? , a folk version of >> ?Little Red Riding Hood? the girl eats his grandmother?s flesh and drinks >> her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism, >> but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix >> which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older >> often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified >> receiving magical power.? >> ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around the >> World >> >> By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365 >> >> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > > wrote: >> >>> Prof. Karp, >>> >>> You must be aware of these words from the Bible. ?You Must Eat My Flesh? >>> I found a discussion here: >>> >>> http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh >>> >>> There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words. >>> >>> What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and drink >>> his blood. >>> >>> There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two >>> expressions. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> -N >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> From: Dean Michael Anderson >>>> To: Artur Karp >>>> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya , indology < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >>>> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in the >>>> remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare European >>>> saintly relics. >>>> >>>> Grisly, indeed. >>>> >>>> Dean >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Artur Karp >>>> *To:* Dean Michael Anderson >>>> *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya ; indology < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >>>> >>>> In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s >>>> Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that >>>> his healing powers would not be lost. >>>> >>>> Best, also - >>>> >>>> Artur >>>> >>>> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson < >>>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>: >>>> >>>> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" tantra. >>>> I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places with >>>> famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard the >>>> bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I have >>>> read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen it. >>>> It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians and >>>> Nepalis. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Dean Anderson >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >>>> >>>> In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends >>>> of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, >>>> ? >>>> Princess Niwal Da?, As su >>>> ?n >>>> g >>>> ?b >>>> y t >>>> ?wo >>>> s >>>> ?c >>>> a >>>> ?v >>>> e >>>> ?n >>>> gers >>>> ?f? >>>> ro >>>> m >>>> Bi >>>> ?b >>>> iy?l >>>> ?V >>>> illage >>>> ?n >>>> ear A >>>> ?mb >>>> ?l?), >>>> ? >>>> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - >>>> >>>> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain >>>> his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance, >>>> >>>> Artur Karp >>>> >>>> Warsaw >>>> Poland >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Wed Apr 27 08:59:08 2016 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 10:59:08 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] a i and ai Message-ID: <82B9A9C5-4115-474D-BBD4-CFA9B32FD376@uclouvain.be> Dear List, is there a way in Roman script for distinguishing in a compound the result of -a? + vowel other than a which could be i = a i, with hiatus, from the diphthong ai resulting from a/? + e/ai ? ex. mana? + indriya- = manaindrya- (?) beside m?nasa + aindriya = m?nasaindriya In n?gar? script I find written mana indrya- with a space put between the two members, but it would look strange in Roman script. Any suggestion welcome. Best wishes, Christophe Vielle ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesan at ifpindia.org Wed Apr 27 09:28:06 2016 From: ganesan at ifpindia.org (Dr. T. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 14:58:06 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <57208626.9050005@ifpindia.org> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell > wrote: > T/he ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on a more > sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as //s?an?kara-pu?janam? in the > //?ivayogad?pik?//. /// My observation on this point is: Sankarapuujanam need be taken as 'a sectarian flavour'. For, Isvara denotes only Siva as we find in all the Upanishads and other texts; Svetasvataropanishad repeats this word denoting Siva many times and it can not be interpreted in any other way. As Kalidasa says in the invocatory verse of his drama, Vikramorvasiyam, ved?nte?u yam?hurekapuru?a?vy?pya sthita?rodas? / yasminn??vara ityananyavi?aya??abdo yath?rth?k?ara?/ Isvara denotes only Siva from the early period. Kalidasa is of the firm view that the entire Vedanta corpus (ved?nte?u) proclaims Siva to be the highest Reality (puru?a) that pervades all the universe. Kalidasa and Patanjali definitely belong to very early period. Thus by ??v?ra-pra?idh?na it is fully plausible and also possible, that Patanjali meant only worship of Siva. And, worshipping a supreme God need not be interpreted as ''sectarian''. One cannot ''worship'' a supreme reality which is nirguna. Ganesan On 26-04-2016 21:53, Rafal Kleczek wrote: > Thank you very much for your observations. I have not been aware of > the variations on the concept of yama/niyama in Puranas and later > Yogic texts, it is most interesting. > The subject of difference in "niyama" regulations for ascetics at > different stages in Kau??inya's theory is quite interesting. Kau??inya > himself considers it a peculiar trait of the system, or scripture > ("tantra"). At the same time, a similar differentiation of niyama > rules seems to be accepted by some early Naiy?yikas, who otherwise > seem to follow quite closely the theory of Pata?jali (with regard to > the practice of Yoga). > Even though it seems true, that Ny?ya came under influence of P??upata > authors at some point, this idea of differentiation of niyamas is > hinted at even in V?tsy?yana's Bh??ya--which was written too early to > speak about P??upata influence, I think. Hence the search for other > possible sources of this peculiar variation. > With best wishes, > Rafal > > On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell > wrote: > > Dear Rafal, > > Later medieval tantric and Ha?hayoga treatises sometimes include > both 10 yamas and 10 niyamas. For example, Chapter 25 of the > /S?a?rada?//tilakatantra/, the /?ivayogad?pik?/, /Yogayaj??valkya/, > and many others ? and here, I imagine, particularly for the ?aiva > texts, they might be drawing from the earlier P??upata yoga > traditions. > > As always, across these yoga texts and traditions, there is > fluidity and malleability, but they seem to all draw from a shared > yama-niyama palette, if you will. The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the > PY?, for example, often takes on a more sectarian flavor in the > later texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? in the /?ivayogad?pik?/. > > Yet, often the medieval yoga texts appear to explicitly omit them, > such as Sv?tm?r?ma?s /Ha?haprad?pik?/ (although a later > 10-chapter version of this text does include yamas and niyamas), > and thus we are left to speculate on their optionality. Perhaps > they were left to be filled in by a guru, or elsewhere from a > sectarian tradition, or were in fact left out of yogic praxis > entirely (although I doubt this). But I think it?s safe to say if > they are included in a prescriptive yoga text, they were not > considered optional for that author, but rather par for the > course. This is most clear in the PY? and its commentaries, as > Prof. Bryant astutely notes, but I think also holds for the later > medieval texts as well. > > Best wishes, > > Seth > > --- > > *Seth D. Powell* > /Doctoral Student/ > Committee on the Study of Religion > Harvard University > > /ATG Student Consultant/ > Academic Technology Group (ATG) > Harvard University Information Technology > > *p*707 494 4721 > *e*sethpowell at g.harvard.edu > > > > > > > >> On Apr 26, 2016, at 8:02 AM, edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu >> wrote: >> >> >>> 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama regulations to be >>> permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, depending on >>> time, place, >>> etc.? Is it a common understanding of the division between yama >>> and niyama >>> among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches of ??aivism? >> >> I don't recall reading this in any YS commentary. It probably >> comes from >> the idea that it is after the yama verse that Patanjali stresses >> (with >> uncharacteristic emphasis, one might add, both in terms of his >> own overall >> tone, and in terms of the sutra penchant for non-repetition or >> redundancy), that they are inviolable (i.e. he chose not to state >> this >> after the niyama verse which follows the yama verse). However, 3 >> of the >> niyamas are listed under kriya yoga in the opening verse of >> chapter 2, so, >> given they are repeated again in the astanga section there is no >> sense in >> the YS tradition that they are optional. >> >>> 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama regulations? >> >> The Bhagavata Purana has 10 yamas. If the Pasupata texts have >> 10, I would >> probably search the Siva, Skandha or Linga puranas for precedents. >> >> With best wishes, Edwin Bryant. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 09:29:35 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 14:59:35 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it? -- Frankly, before reading your post, I did not read it. But your post inspired me to download it from the Archive.org I read a study by Saeed Bhutta downloading from the same website. I called it a legend as per the title given to the book. >The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as >attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and >then using them freely in their own performances. ------ I agree with this view. My fieldworks too taught me that the romanticizations and imaginations of 'pure' folk forms and isolated existences of the folk performers without any watching / listening of the classical and other forms by them are wrong. > I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W India's culture. --- I agree. I collaborated in an ESRC funded research project with Prof. Simon Charsley of Glasgow university and others with this theme of such folk performers similar to those of Scavengers Community being 'active participants in and co-creators of' Telugu culture. >That motif relates the epic to tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. Epic is the genre of literary expression. Legend is that of the narrative expressed through that literary form. Tantrik ? Is it so clear? Not sure. > may belong to them ( tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra forms) -- May or may not. I would not say for sure until and unless I find any thing like consuming the Master's flesh in either the theory or practice of tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra forms. Aghoris do not go in search of their master's corpse. At least in theory, they, in their attempt to experience 'nothing is ghora' , go in search of those materials which are considered as ghora by the general society or even by themselves before their initiation into the tradition. In any case your attempt to understand it through such aspects as tantra matches with my point " to understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other components of each of the cultural complex may help. " On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > Dear Nagaraj > > > >> A legend. > > Definitely - more than that. > > Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it? > > > Now, considering the milieu in which the epic (I'll insist on using this > term - OK - folk epic) was created and recreated, I am more than just > curious about the *channels of transmission* - many of the motives > present in the text have their origin in the Rajput lore (which, in its > turn, freely uses Sanskrit epics narrative material). > > Dhanatthar is The Healer, per se - in his earlier personification as > Dhanvantari it was he who brought out from the depths of the primeval > ocean the pot with amrita, the Nectar of Immortality. > > In our times his powers weaken, he is unable to counteract The Virulent > Serpent's (Tatig Nag, epic Takshaka) poison - and so he asks his disciples > to eat the flesh of their dying Master - so that his great healing powers > are not lost to humanity. > > That motif relates the epic to tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra > forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. > > Some others have their source in folk-lore; spells found in the text > belong to medicinal magic lore. > > The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me > imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as > attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out > the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and then using > them freely in their own performances. > > I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W > India's culture. > > In fact, their text can be easily made into a scenario for one of those > C-class Hindi movies, perhaps - even a series of such movies. I, > personally, would guarantee their instant popularity. > > My Polish translation of "Princess Niwal-Dai"/"?ahr Safidon ki Kahani" is > ready, it's going to be published, hopefully soon, under the title > "Daughter of a Thousand Serpents" ("C?rka Tysi?ca W???w"). > > In some, again hopefully near, future, the text, together with the > Astika-parvan of the Mbh., is going to be used in a planned comparative > study, under the working title: "?ahr Safidon [...] and Astika-Parvan: Two > Strategies for Survival". > > Best, > > from Warsaw, > > Artur > > > 2016-04-27 7:16 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : > >> The narrative under question is a legend. Legends are a genre of folk >> narratives. They differ from 'history' in having unrealistic and >> scientifically not verified elements. Dhanthar Baid is such a character >> without historical evidence. The 'visionary' (dreamlike and as such >> requiring symbolic interpretation , are part of legends as much as of the >> other genres of folk narratives. >> >> One of the distinctions of modern studies of culture in contrast to >> traditional localized studies of the native cultures by the natives, is >> comparative study. >> >> For such a comparison we may have to look at the motifs of cannibalism in >> cultures outside India. The following links provide some such information: >> >> http://listverse.com/2012/12/05/top-10-truly-disturbing-fairy-tales/ >> >> >> http://www.cracked.com/article_15962_the-gruesome-origins-5-popular-fairy-tales.html >> http://www.cultcase.com/2008/09/five-creepy-cannibalism-themes-in.html >> >> Sharing pdf of a dissertation and snapshots of an Encyclopedia article. >> >> For a comparative study of historical interpretations of cannibalism in >> reality, the following links may be useful: >> >> >> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/ >> >> >> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/?no-ist >> >> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141858/Tough-news-swallow-Europeans-saw-wrong-cannibalism-1900s-new-books-claim.html >> >> Comparative studies may help in understanding both commonalities and >> distinct specifics. >> >> To understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other >> components of each of the cultural complex may help. >> >> -N >> >> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:51 AM, rajam wrote: >> >>> ///Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of >>> the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, /// >>> >>> Hmmm ? this certainly is a new speculation as far as I am concerned! For >>> me, ?inoculation? is something medicinal and physical, not ritual and >>> literary. I?d like to learn more about it. Please educate me. >>> >>> >>> ///the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm itself./// >>> >>> This statement is even more confusing. 'Dead spirit harming itself?' >>> What does that mean? You should educate me. >>> >>> ++++++++++ >>> >>> There are quite a few references to ?cannibalism? in Old Tamil (Sangam >>> literature, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai), Kalingathupparani, and a later >>> hagiographic Tamil literature (Periyapuranam) perhaps depicting the >>> later-developed k?p?lika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalika) >>> tradition. >>> >>> However, none of the Tamil references point to ?acquiring? the other >>> party?s (== the consumed ones?) flesh or life. And, the consumed ones were >>> not always a king?s enemies. >>> >>> I wish scholars would abstain from making sweeping statements about a >>> foreign culture/literature. >>> >>> Thanks and regards, >>> rajam >>> >>> >>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 12:46 PM, George Hart wrote: >>> >>> This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don?t think it >>> applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. Rather, the >>> purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead person by >>> creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being that the dead >>> spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the strength of >>> someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the purpose of >>> consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has shown by being >>> defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed you to prevail. >>> In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war sacrifice, in which body >>> parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked (boiled), though there is no >>> evidence that the resultant ?food? was actually eaten. And in the >>> Kali?kattuppara?i, there are long descriptions of ghosts and macabre >>> deities feasting on the war dead. George >>> >>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi >>> wrote: >>> >>> ?The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you >>> inherit his powers. In ?The Story of the Grandmother? , a folk version of >>> ?Little Red Riding Hood? the girl eats his grandmother?s flesh and drinks >>> her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism, >>> but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix >>> which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older >>> often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified >>> receiving magical power.? >>> ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around the >>> World >>> >>> By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365 >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi < >>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Prof. Karp, >>>> >>>> You must be aware of these words from the Bible. ?You Must Eat >>>> My Flesh? I found a discussion here: >>>> >>>> http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh >>>> >>>> There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words. >>>> >>>> What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and >>>> drink his blood. >>>> >>>> There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two >>>> expressions. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> -N >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>> From: Dean Michael Anderson >>>>> To: Artur Karp >>>>> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya , indology < >>>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>>> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC) >>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >>>>> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in the >>>>> remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare European >>>>> saintly relics. >>>>> >>>>> Grisly, indeed. >>>>> >>>>> Dean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* Artur Karp >>>>> *To:* Dean Michael Anderson >>>>> *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya ; indology < >>>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >>>>> >>>>> In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s >>>>> Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that >>>>> his healing powers would not be lost. >>>>> >>>>> Best, also - >>>>> >>>>> Artur >>>>> >>>>> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson < >>>>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>: >>>>> >>>>> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" >>>>> tantra. I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places >>>>> with famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard >>>>> the bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I >>>>> have read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen >>>>> it. It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians >>>>> and Nepalis. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Dean Anderson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >>>>> >>>>> In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends >>>>> of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, >>>>> ? >>>>> Princess Niwal Da?, As su >>>>> ?n >>>>> g >>>>> ?b >>>>> y t >>>>> ?wo >>>>> s >>>>> ?c >>>>> a >>>>> ?v >>>>> e >>>>> ?n >>>>> gers >>>>> ?f? >>>>> ro >>>>> m >>>>> Bi >>>>> ?b >>>>> iy?l >>>>> ?V >>>>> illage >>>>> ?n >>>>> ear A >>>>> ?mb >>>>> ?l?), >>>>> ? >>>>> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - >>>>> >>>>> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to >>>>> gain his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks in advance, >>>>> >>>>> Artur Karp >>>>> >>>>> Warsaw >>>>> Poland >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>> >>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>> >>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>> >>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>> >>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk Wed Apr 27 09:39:14 2016 From: dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk (dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 10:39:14 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] a i and ai In-Reply-To: <82B9A9C5-4115-474D-BBD4-CFA9B32FD376@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: <572088C2.2944.68AC09@dermot.grevatt.force9.co.uk> Dear Christophe, The usual practice in roman script is to separate the two vowels with a space, showing that they are not a diphthong but belong to two different syllables. E.g. mana + indriya- = mana indriya- I don't think that looks strange. You can see it for instance in Edgerton's Bhagavadgita (Harvard U. Press, 1952) ch 2 verse 9c: na yotsya iti govindam (na + yotsye + iti). By the way, what distinguishes the separate vowels from the diphthong in nagari is not the space (which isn't always marked in manuscripts) but the fact that the second vowel (in your case the i) is written with a character, not with a stroke added to a consonant character. This makes a space possible, though not necessary. Indeed, such hiatus can occur within a word, which is rare in Sanskrit (e.g. pra'uga "the forepart of the shafts of a chariot; triangle"), but common in Prakrit. Here, it would be very odd to write a space, since it's within a word. I've marked the hiatus with an apostrophe, but Monier-Williams does it with diaeresis/tr?ma (two superscript dots). I hope that solves your doubts quicker than Arjuna's. With best wishes, Dermot On 27 Apr 2016 at 10:59, Christophe Vielle wrote: Dear List, is there a way in Roman script for distinguishing in a compound the result of -a + vowel other than a which could be i = a i, with hiatus, from the diphthong ai resulting from a/a + e/ai ? ex. mana + indriya- = manaindrya- (?) beside manasa + aindriya = manasaindriya In n?gar? script I find written mana indrya- with a space put between the two members, but it would look strange in Roman script. Any suggestion welcome. Best wishes, Christophe Vielle ------------------- Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -- Dermot Killingley 9, Rectory Drive, Gosforth, Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT Phone (0191) 285 8053 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sellmers at gmx.de Wed Apr 27 09:57:47 2016 From: sellmers at gmx.de (Sven Sellmer) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 11:57:47 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] a i and ai In-Reply-To: <572088C2.2944.68AC09@dermot.grevatt.force9.co.uk> Message-ID: <7EE794FB-1944-412B-ACA9-704A94519FA0@gmx.de> Dear Dermot and Christophe, yotsya iti does not seem to be a proper example, because it is no compound. I personally would use a hyphen, like so: mana-indriya- Best wishes, Sven > Am 27.04.2016 um 11:39 schrieb dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk: > > Dear Christophe, > > The usual practice in roman script is to separate the two vowels with a space, showing that they are not a diphthong but belong to two different syllables. E.g. > > mana? + indriya- = mana indriya- > > I don't think that looks strange. You can see it for instance in Edgerton's Bhagavadgita (Harvard U. Press, 1952) ch 2 verse 9c: na yotsya iti govindam (na + yotsye + iti). > > By the way, what distinguishes the separate vowels from the diphthong in nagari is not the space (which isn't always marked in manuscripts) but the fact that the second vowel (in your case the i) is written with a character, not with a stroke added to a consonant character. This makes a space possible, though not necessary. Indeed, such hiatus can occur within a word, which is rare in Sanskrit (e.g. pra'uga "the forepart of the shafts of a chariot; triangle"), but common in Prakrit. Here, it would be very odd to write a space, since it's within a word. I've marked the hiatus with an apostrophe, but Monier-Williams does it with diaeresis/tr?ma (two superscript dots). > > I hope that solves your doubts quicker than Arjuna's. > > With best wishes, > > Dermot > > On 27 Apr 2016 at 10:59, Christophe Vielle wrote: > > Dear List, > > is there a way in Roman script for distinguishing in a compound the result of - a? + vowel other than a which could be i = a i, with hiatus, from the diphthong ai resulting from a/? + e/ai ? > ex. mana? + indriya- = manaindrya- (?) beside m?nasa + aindriya = m?nasaindriya > In n?gar? script I find written mana indrya- with a space put between the two members, but it would look strange in Roman script. > Any suggestion welcome. > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > > > > ------------------- > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > -- > Dermot Killingley > 9, Rectory Drive, > Gosforth, > Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT > Phone (0191) 285 8053 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi Wed Apr 27 10:02:55 2016 From: klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 13:02:55 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] a i and ai In-Reply-To: <7EE794FB-1944-412B-ACA9-704A94519FA0@gmx.de> Message-ID: Dear all, in one-word cases the traditional way is to use trema in the second vowel: pra?ga. In Sanskrit this is rare, but in Prakrit very common. In mana-indriya- hyphen is OK, but not inside one word. Best, Klaus Klaus Karttunen South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418 Fax +358-(0)2941 22094 Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi > On 27 Apr 2016, at 12:57, Sven Sellmer wrote: > > Dear Dermot and Christophe, > > yotsya iti does not seem to be a proper example, because it is no compound. I personally would use a hyphen, like so: > > mana-indriya- > > Best wishes, > Sven > >> Am 27.04.2016 um 11:39 schrieb dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk : >> >> Dear Christophe, >> >> The usual practice in roman script is to separate the two vowels with a space, showing that they are not a diphthong but belong to two different syllables. E.g. >> >> mana? + indriya- = mana indriya- >> >> I don't think that looks strange. You can see it for instance in Edgerton's Bhagavadgita (Harvard U. Press, 1952) ch 2 verse 9c: na yotsya iti govindam (na + yotsye + iti). >> >> By the way, what distinguishes the separate vowels from the diphthong in nagari is not the space (which isn't always marked in manuscripts) but the fact that the second vowel (in your case the i) is written with a character, not with a stroke added to a consonant character. This makes a space possible, though not necessary. Indeed, such hiatus can occur within a word, which is rare in Sanskrit (e.g. pra'uga "the forepart of the shafts of a chariot; triangle"), but common in Prakrit. Here, it would be very odd to write a space, since it's within a word. I've marked the hiatus with an apostrophe, but Monier-Williams does it with diaeresis/tr?ma (two superscript dots). >> >> I hope that solves your doubts quicker than Arjuna's. >> >> With best wishes, >> >> Dermot >> >> On 27 Apr 2016 at 10:59, Christophe Vielle wrote: >> >> Dear List, >> >> is there a way in Roman script for distinguishing in a compound the result of - a? + vowel other than a which could be i = a i, with hiatus, from the diphthong ai resulting from a/? + e/ai ? >> ex. mana? + indriya- = manaindrya- (?) beside m?nasa + aindriya = m?nasaindriya >> In n?gar? script I find written mana indrya- with a space put between the two members, but it would look strange in Roman script. >> Any suggestion welcome. >> Best wishes, >> Christophe Vielle >> >> >> >> ------------------- >> Christophe Vielle >> Louvain-la-Neuve >> >> >> -- >> Dermot Killingley >> 9, Rectory Drive, >> Gosforth, >> Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT >> Phone (0191) 285 8053 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Wed Apr 27 10:08:40 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 12:08:40 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > a study by Saeed Bhutta English - or Urdu? Both? If it's in English, could you, please, send me a PDF-copy? Artur 2016-04-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : > > Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it? > > -- Frankly, before reading your post, I did not read it. But your post > inspired me to download it from the Archive.org > > I read a study by Saeed Bhutta downloading from the same website. > > I called it a legend as per the title given to the book. > > >The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me > imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as > >attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out > the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and >then using > them freely in their own performances. > > ------ I agree with this view. My fieldworks too taught me that the > romanticizations and imaginations of 'pure' folk forms and isolated > existences of the folk performers without any watching / listening of the > classical and other forms by them are wrong. > > > I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W > India's culture. > > --- I agree. I collaborated in an ESRC funded research project with > Prof. Simon Charsley of Glasgow university and others with this theme of > such folk performers similar to those of Scavengers Community being > 'active participants in and co-creators of' Telugu culture. > > >That motif relates the epic to tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra > forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. > > Epic is the genre of literary expression. Legend is that of the narrative > expressed through that literary form. > > Tantrik ? Is it so clear? Not sure. > > > may belong to them ( tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra forms) > > -- May or may not. I would not say for sure until and unless I find any > thing like consuming the Master's flesh in either the theory or practice of > tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra forms. > > Aghoris do not go in search of their master's corpse. > > At least in theory, they, in their attempt to experience 'nothing is > ghora' , go in search of those materials which are considered as ghora by > the general society or even by themselves before their initiation into the > tradition. > > In any case your attempt to understand it through such aspects as tantra > matches with my point " > to understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other > components of each of the cultural complex may help. > " > > > > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > >> Dear Nagaraj >> >> >> >> A legend. >> >> Definitely - more than that. >> >> Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it? >> >> >> Now, considering the milieu in which the epic (I'll insist on using this >> term - OK - folk epic) was created and recreated, I am more than just >> curious about the *channels of transmission* - many of the motives >> present in the text have their origin in the Rajput lore (which, in its >> turn, freely uses Sanskrit epics narrative material). >> >> Dhanatthar is The Healer, per se - in his earlier personification as >> Dhanvantari it was he who brought out from the depths of the primeval >> ocean the pot with amrita, the Nectar of Immortality. >> >> In our times his powers weaken, he is unable to counteract The Virulent >> Serpent's (Tatig Nag, epic Takshaka) poison - and so he asks his disciples >> to eat the flesh of their dying Master - so that his great healing powers >> are not lost to humanity. >> >> That motif relates the epic to tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra >> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. >> >> Some others have their source in folk-lore; spells found in the text >> belong to medicinal magic lore. >> >> The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me >> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as >> attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out >> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and then using >> them freely in their own performances. >> >> I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W >> India's culture. >> >> In fact, their text can be easily made into a scenario for one of those >> C-class Hindi movies, perhaps - even a series of such movies. I, >> personally, would guarantee their instant popularity. >> >> My Polish translation of "Princess Niwal-Dai"/"?ahr Safidon ki Kahani" is >> ready, it's going to be published, hopefully soon, under the title >> "Daughter of a Thousand Serpents" ("C?rka Tysi?ca W???w"). >> >> In some, again hopefully near, future, the text, together with the >> Astika-parvan of the Mbh., is going to be used in a planned comparative >> study, under the working title: "?ahr Safidon [...] and Astika-Parvan: Two >> Strategies for Survival". >> >> Best, >> >> from Warsaw, >> >> Artur >> >> >> 2016-04-27 7:16 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : >> >>> The narrative under question is a legend. Legends are a genre of folk >>> narratives. They differ from 'history' in having unrealistic and >>> scientifically not verified elements. Dhanthar Baid is such a character >>> without historical evidence. The 'visionary' (dreamlike and as such >>> requiring symbolic interpretation , are part of legends as much as of the >>> other genres of folk narratives. >>> >>> One of the distinctions of modern studies of culture in contrast to >>> traditional localized studies of the native cultures by the natives, is >>> comparative study. >>> >>> For such a comparison we may have to look at the motifs of cannibalism >>> in cultures outside India. The following links provide some such >>> information: >>> >>> http://listverse.com/2012/12/05/top-10-truly-disturbing-fairy-tales/ >>> >>> >>> http://www.cracked.com/article_15962_the-gruesome-origins-5-popular-fairy-tales.html >>> http://www.cultcase.com/2008/09/five-creepy-cannibalism-themes-in.html >>> >>> Sharing pdf of a dissertation and snapshots of an Encyclopedia article. >>> >>> For a comparative study of historical interpretations of cannibalism in >>> reality, the following links may be useful: >>> >>> >>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/ >>> >>> >>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/?no-ist >>> >>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141858/Tough-news-swallow-Europeans-saw-wrong-cannibalism-1900s-new-books-claim.html >>> >>> Comparative studies may help in understanding both commonalities and >>> distinct specifics. >>> >>> To understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other >>> components of each of the cultural complex may help. >>> >>> -N >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:51 AM, rajam wrote: >>> >>>> ///Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of >>>> the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, /// >>>> >>>> Hmmm ? this certainly is a new speculation as far as I am concerned! >>>> For me, ?inoculation? is something medicinal and physical, not ritual and >>>> literary. I?d like to learn more about it. Please educate me. >>>> >>>> >>>> ///the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm itself./// >>>> >>>> This statement is even more confusing. 'Dead spirit harming itself?' >>>> What does that mean? You should educate me. >>>> >>>> ++++++++++ >>>> >>>> There are quite a few references to ?cannibalism? in Old Tamil (Sangam >>>> literature, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai), Kalingathupparani, and a later >>>> hagiographic Tamil literature (Periyapuranam) perhaps depicting the >>>> later-developed k?p?lika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalika) >>>> tradition. >>>> >>>> However, none of the Tamil references point to ?acquiring? the other >>>> party?s (== the consumed ones?) flesh or life. And, the consumed ones were >>>> not always a king?s enemies. >>>> >>>> I wish scholars would abstain from making sweeping statements about a >>>> foreign culture/literature. >>>> >>>> Thanks and regards, >>>> rajam >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 12:46 PM, George Hart wrote: >>>> >>>> This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don?t think it >>>> applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. Rather, the >>>> purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead person by >>>> creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being that the dead >>>> spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the strength of >>>> someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the purpose of >>>> consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has shown by being >>>> defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed you to prevail. >>>> In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war sacrifice, in which body >>>> parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked (boiled), though there is no >>>> evidence that the resultant ?food? was actually eaten. And in the >>>> Kali?kattuppara?i, there are long descriptions of ghosts and macabre >>>> deities feasting on the war dead. George >>>> >>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> ?The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you >>>> inherit his powers. In ?The Story of the Grandmother? , a folk version of >>>> ?Little Red Riding Hood? the girl eats his grandmother?s flesh and drinks >>>> her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism, >>>> but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix >>>> which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older >>>> often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified >>>> receiving magical power.? >>>> ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around the >>>> World >>>> >>>> By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365 >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi < >>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Prof. Karp, >>>>> >>>>> You must be aware of these words from the Bible. ?You Must Eat >>>>> My Flesh? I found a discussion here: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh >>>>> >>>>> There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words. >>>>> >>>>> What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and >>>>> drink his blood. >>>>> >>>>> There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two >>>>> expressions. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> -N >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < >>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>> committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>>> From: Dean Michael Anderson >>>>>> To: Artur Karp >>>>>> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya , indology < >>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>>>> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC) >>>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >>>>>> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in the >>>>>> remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare European >>>>>> saintly relics. >>>>>> >>>>>> Grisly, indeed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dean >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* Artur Karp >>>>>> *To:* Dean Michael Anderson >>>>>> *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya ; indology < >>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a >>>>>> healer >>>>>> >>>>>> In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s >>>>>> Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that >>>>>> his healing powers would not be lost. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, also - >>>>>> >>>>>> Artur >>>>>> >>>>>> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson < >>>>>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>: >>>>>> >>>>>> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" >>>>>> tantra. I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places >>>>>> with famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard >>>>>> the bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I >>>>>> have read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen >>>>>> it. It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians >>>>>> and Nepalis. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Dean Anderson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The >>>>>> Legends of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, >>>>>> ? >>>>>> Princess Niwal Da?, As su >>>>>> ?n >>>>>> g >>>>>> ?b >>>>>> y t >>>>>> ?wo >>>>>> s >>>>>> ?c >>>>>> a >>>>>> ?v >>>>>> e >>>>>> ?n >>>>>> gers >>>>>> ?f? >>>>>> ro >>>>>> m >>>>>> Bi >>>>>> ?b >>>>>> iy?l >>>>>> ?V >>>>>> illage >>>>>> ?n >>>>>> ear A >>>>>> ?mb >>>>>> ?l?), >>>>>> ? >>>>>> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - >>>>>> >>>>>> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to >>>>>> gain his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks in advance, >>>>>> >>>>>> Artur Karp >>>>>> >>>>>> Warsaw >>>>>> Poland >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>> committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>> committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> >>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>> >>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>> >>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>> >>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>> >>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>> >>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>> >>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>> >>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk Wed Apr 27 10:09:09 2016 From: dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk (dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 11:09:09 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] a i and ai In-Reply-To: <7EE794FB-1944-412B-ACA9-704A94519FA0@gmx.de> Message-ID: <57208FC5.8156.841141@dermot.grevatt.force9.co.uk> Dear Sven, Thank you for pointing this out. Yes, in a compound I'd put a hyphen, not a space. With best wishes, Dermot On 27 Apr 2016 at 11:57, Sven Sellmer wrote: Dear Dermot and Christophe, yotsya iti does not seem to be a proper example, because it is no compound. I personally would use a hyphen, like so: mana-indriya- Best wishes, Sven Am 27.04.2016 um 11:39 schrieb dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk: Dear Christophe, The usual practice in roman script is to separate the two vowels with a space, showing that they are not a diphthong but belong to two different syllables. E.g. mana + indriya- = mana indriya- I don't think that looks strange. You can see it for instance in Edgerton's Bhagavadgita (Harvard U. Press, 1952) ch 2 verse 9c: na yotsya iti govindam (na + yotsye + iti). By the way, what distinguishes the separate vowels from the diphthong in nagari is not the space (which isn't always marked in manuscripts) but the fact that the second vowel (in your case the i) is written with a character, not with a stroke added to a consonant character. This makes a space possible, though not necessary. Indeed, such hiatus can occur within a word, which is rare in Sanskrit (e.g. pra'uga "the forepart of the shafts of a chariot; triangle"), but common in Prakrit. Here, it would be very odd to write a space, since it's within a word. I've marked the hiatus with an apostrophe, but Monier-Williams does it with diaeresis/tr?ma (two superscript dots). I hope that solves your doubts quicker than Arjuna's. With best wishes, Dermot On 27 Apr 2016 at 10:59, Christophe Vielle wrote: Dear List, is there a way in Roman script for distinguishing in a compound the result of - a + vowel other than a which could be i = a i, with hiatus, from the diphthong ai resulting from a/a + e/ai ? ex. mana + indriya- = manaindrya- (?) beside manasa + aindriya = manasaindriya In n?gar? script I find written mana indrya- with a space put between the two members, but it would look strange in Roman script. Any suggestion welcome. Best wishes, Christophe Vielle ------------------- Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -- Dermot Killingley 9, Rectory Drive, Gosforth, Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT Phone (0191) 285 8053 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dermot Killingley 9, Rectory Drive, Gosforth, Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT Phone (0191) 285 8053 From karp at uw.edu.pl Wed Apr 27 10:15:41 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 12:15:41 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If anyone would want to try out the powers of their intellect - and read my Polish rendering of the text, :) here it is: 2016-04-27 12:08 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > > a study by Saeed Bhutta > > English - or Urdu? Both? > > If it's in English, could you, please, send me a PDF-copy? > > Artur > > 2016-04-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : > >> > Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it? >> >> -- Frankly, before reading your post, I did not read it. But your post >> inspired me to download it from the Archive.org >> >> I read a study by Saeed Bhutta downloading from the same website. >> >> I called it a legend as per the title given to the book. >> >> >The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me >> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as >> >attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out >> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and >then using >> them freely in their own performances. >> >> ------ I agree with this view. My fieldworks too taught me that the >> romanticizations and imaginations of 'pure' folk forms and isolated >> existences of the folk performers without any watching / listening of the >> classical and other forms by them are wrong. >> >> > I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W >> India's culture. >> >> --- I agree. I collaborated in an ESRC funded research project with >> Prof. Simon Charsley of Glasgow university and others with this theme of >> such folk performers similar to those of Scavengers Community being >> 'active participants in and co-creators of' Telugu culture. >> >> >That motif relates the epic to tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra >> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. >> >> Epic is the genre of literary expression. Legend is that of the narrative >> expressed through that literary form. >> >> Tantrik ? Is it so clear? Not sure. >> >> > may belong to them ( tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra forms) >> >> -- May or may not. I would not say for sure until and unless I find any >> thing like consuming the Master's flesh in either the theory or practice of >> tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra forms. >> >> Aghoris do not go in search of their master's corpse. >> >> At least in theory, they, in their attempt to experience 'nothing is >> ghora' , go in search of those materials which are considered as ghora by >> the general society or even by themselves before their initiation into the >> tradition. >> >> In any case your attempt to understand it through such aspects as tantra >> matches with my point " >> to understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other >> components of each of the cultural complex may help. >> " >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >> >>> Dear Nagaraj >>> >>> >>> >> A legend. >>> >>> Definitely - more than that. >>> >>> Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it? >>> >>> >>> Now, considering the milieu in which the epic (I'll insist on using this >>> term - OK - folk epic) was created and recreated, I am more than just >>> curious about the *channels of transmission* - many of the motives >>> present in the text have their origin in the Rajput lore (which, in its >>> turn, freely uses Sanskrit epics narrative material). >>> >>> Dhanatthar is The Healer, per se - in his earlier personification as >>> Dhanvantari it was he who brought out from the depths of the primeval >>> ocean the pot with amrita, the Nectar of Immortality. >>> >>> In our times his powers weaken, he is unable to counteract The Virulent >>> Serpent's (Tatig Nag, epic Takshaka) poison - and so he asks his disciples >>> to eat the flesh of their dying Master - so that his great healing powers >>> are not lost to humanity. >>> >>> That motif relates the epic to tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra >>> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. >>> >>> Some others have their source in folk-lore; spells found in the text >>> belong to medicinal magic lore. >>> >>> The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me >>> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as >>> attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out >>> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and then using >>> them freely in their own performances. >>> >>> I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W >>> India's culture. >>> >>> In fact, their text can be easily made into a scenario for one of those >>> C-class Hindi movies, perhaps - even a series of such movies. I, >>> personally, would guarantee their instant popularity. >>> >>> My Polish translation of "Princess Niwal-Dai"/"?ahr Safidon ki Kahani" >>> is ready, it's going to be published, hopefully soon, under the title >>> "Daughter of a Thousand Serpents" ("C?rka Tysi?ca W???w"). >>> >>> In some, again hopefully near, future, the text, together with the >>> Astika-parvan of the Mbh., is going to be used in a planned comparative >>> study, under the working title: "?ahr Safidon [...] and Astika-Parvan: Two >>> Strategies for Survival". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> from Warsaw, >>> >>> Artur >>> >>> >>> 2016-04-27 7:16 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : >>> >>>> The narrative under question is a legend. Legends are a genre of folk >>>> narratives. They differ from 'history' in having unrealistic and >>>> scientifically not verified elements. Dhanthar Baid is such a character >>>> without historical evidence. The 'visionary' (dreamlike and as such >>>> requiring symbolic interpretation , are part of legends as much as of the >>>> other genres of folk narratives. >>>> >>>> One of the distinctions of modern studies of culture in contrast to >>>> traditional localized studies of the native cultures by the natives, is >>>> comparative study. >>>> >>>> For such a comparison we may have to look at the motifs of cannibalism >>>> in cultures outside India. The following links provide some such >>>> information: >>>> >>>> http://listverse.com/2012/12/05/top-10-truly-disturbing-fairy-tales/ >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.cracked.com/article_15962_the-gruesome-origins-5-popular-fairy-tales.html >>>> http://www.cultcase.com/2008/09/five-creepy-cannibalism-themes-in.html >>>> >>>> Sharing pdf of a dissertation and snapshots of an Encyclopedia article. >>>> >>>> For a comparative study of historical interpretations of cannibalism in >>>> reality, the following links may be useful: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/ >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/?no-ist >>>> >>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141858/Tough-news-swallow-Europeans-saw-wrong-cannibalism-1900s-new-books-claim.html >>>> >>>> Comparative studies may help in understanding both commonalities and >>>> distinct specifics. >>>> >>>> To understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other >>>> components of each of the cultural complex may help. >>>> >>>> -N >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:51 AM, rajam wrote: >>>> >>>>> ///Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit >>>>> of the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, /// >>>>> >>>>> Hmmm ? this certainly is a new speculation as far as I am concerned! >>>>> For me, ?inoculation? is something medicinal and physical, not ritual and >>>>> literary. I?d like to learn more about it. Please educate me. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ///the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm itself./// >>>>> >>>>> This statement is even more confusing. 'Dead spirit harming itself?' >>>>> What does that mean? You should educate me. >>>>> >>>>> ++++++++++ >>>>> >>>>> There are quite a few references to ?cannibalism? in Old Tamil (Sangam >>>>> literature, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai), Kalingathupparani, and a later >>>>> hagiographic Tamil literature (Periyapuranam) perhaps depicting the >>>>> later-developed k?p?lika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalika) >>>>> tradition. >>>>> >>>>> However, none of the Tamil references point to ?acquiring? the other >>>>> party?s (== the consumed ones?) flesh or life. And, the consumed ones were >>>>> not always a king?s enemies. >>>>> >>>>> I wish scholars would abstain from making sweeping statements about a >>>>> foreign culture/literature. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks and regards, >>>>> rajam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 12:46 PM, George Hart wrote: >>>>> >>>>> This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don?t think >>>>> it applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. Rather, >>>>> the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead >>>>> person by creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being that >>>>> the dead spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the >>>>> strength of someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the >>>>> purpose of consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has >>>>> shown by being defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed >>>>> you to prevail. In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war >>>>> sacrifice, in which body parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked >>>>> (boiled), though there is no evidence that the resultant ?food? was >>>>> actually eaten. And in the Kali?kattuppara?i, there are long descriptions >>>>> of ghosts and macabre deities feasting on the war dead. George >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ?The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you >>>>> inherit his powers. In ?The Story of the Grandmother? , a folk version of >>>>> ?Little Red Riding Hood? the girl eats his grandmother?s flesh and drinks >>>>> her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism, >>>>> but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix >>>>> which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older >>>>> often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified >>>>> receiving magical power.? >>>>> ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around the >>>>> World >>>>> >>>>> By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365 >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi < >>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Prof. Karp, >>>>>> >>>>>> You must be aware of these words from the Bible. ?You Must Eat >>>>>> My Flesh? I found a discussion here: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh >>>>>> >>>>>> There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words. >>>>>> >>>>>> What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and >>>>>> drink his blood. >>>>>> >>>>>> There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two >>>>>> expressions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> -N >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>>>> From: Dean Michael Anderson >>>>>>> To: Artur Karp >>>>>>> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya , indology < >>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>>>>> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC) >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >>>>>>> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in >>>>>>> the remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare >>>>>>> European saintly relics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Grisly, indeed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dean >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> *From:* Artur Karp >>>>>>> *To:* Dean Michael Anderson >>>>>>> *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya ; indology < >>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a >>>>>>> healer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s >>>>>>> Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that >>>>>>> his healing powers would not be lost. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, also - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Artur >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson < >>>>>>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" >>>>>>> tantra. I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places >>>>>>> with famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard >>>>>>> the bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I >>>>>>> have read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen >>>>>>> it. It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians >>>>>>> and Nepalis. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dean Anderson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The >>>>>>> Legends of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, >>>>>>> ? >>>>>>> Princess Niwal Da?, As su >>>>>>> ?n >>>>>>> g >>>>>>> ?b >>>>>>> y t >>>>>>> ?wo >>>>>>> s >>>>>>> ?c >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> ?v >>>>>>> e >>>>>>> ?n >>>>>>> gers >>>>>>> ?f? >>>>>>> ro >>>>>>> m >>>>>>> Bi >>>>>>> ?b >>>>>>> iy?l >>>>>>> ?V >>>>>>> illage >>>>>>> ?n >>>>>>> ear A >>>>>>> ?mb >>>>>>> ?l?), >>>>>>> ? >>>>>>> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to >>>>>>> gain his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks in advance, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Artur Karp >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Warsaw >>>>>>> Poland >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>>> >>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>>> >>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>>> >>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>>> >>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> >>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>> >>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>> >>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>> >>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>> >>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>> >>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>> >>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>> >>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: C?rka.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 790108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Wed Apr 27 10:50:35 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 12:50:35 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nagaraj, First - its really gratifying to find here someone of matching research interests. I don't seem to be able to find Richard Temple's "Legends" on Archive.org. My advanced age? Could you, please, send me the link to the "Legends"? You may, perhaps and hopefully, want to read my already oldish (1981) paper on "Reward and Punishment in Indian Folk-tales", at: https://uw.academia.edu/AKarp Artur 2016-04-27 12:15 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > If anyone would want to try out the powers of their intellect - and read > my Polish rendering of the text, > > :) > > > here it is: > > 2016-04-27 12:08 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > >> > a study by Saeed Bhutta >> >> English - or Urdu? Both? >> >> If it's in English, could you, please, send me a PDF-copy? >> >> Artur >> >> 2016-04-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : >> >>> > Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it? >>> >>> -- Frankly, before reading your post, I did not read it. But your post >>> inspired me to download it from the Archive.org >>> >>> I read a study by Saeed Bhutta downloading from the same website. >>> >>> I called it a legend as per the title given to the book. >>> >>> >The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me >>> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as >>> >attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out >>> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and >then using >>> them freely in their own performances. >>> >>> ------ I agree with this view. My fieldworks too taught me that the >>> romanticizations and imaginations of 'pure' folk forms and isolated >>> existences of the folk performers without any watching / listening of the >>> classical and other forms by them are wrong. >>> >>> > I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W >>> India's culture. >>> >>> --- I agree. I collaborated in an ESRC funded research project with >>> Prof. Simon Charsley of Glasgow university and others with this theme of >>> such folk performers similar to those of Scavengers Community being >>> 'active participants in and co-creators of' Telugu culture. >>> >>> >That motif relates the epic to tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra >>> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. >>> >>> Epic is the genre of literary expression. Legend is that of the >>> narrative expressed through that literary form. >>> >>> Tantrik ? Is it so clear? Not sure. >>> >>> > may belong to them ( tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra forms) >>> >>> -- May or may not. I would not say for sure until and unless I find any >>> thing like consuming the Master's flesh in either the theory or practice of >>> tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra forms. >>> >>> Aghoris do not go in search of their master's corpse. >>> >>> At least in theory, they, in their attempt to experience 'nothing is >>> ghora' , go in search of those materials which are considered as ghora by >>> the general society or even by themselves before their initiation into the >>> tradition. >>> >>> In any case your attempt to understand it through such aspects as tantra >>> matches with my point " >>> to understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other >>> components of each of the cultural complex may help. >>> " >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Nagaraj >>>> >>>> >>>> >> A legend. >>>> >>>> Definitely - more than that. >>>> >>>> Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it? >>>> >>>> >>>> Now, considering the milieu in which the epic (I'll insist on using >>>> this term - OK - folk epic) was created and recreated, I am more than just >>>> curious about the *channels of transmission* - many of the motives >>>> present in the text have their origin in the Rajput lore (which, in its >>>> turn, freely uses Sanskrit epics narrative material). >>>> >>>> Dhanatthar is The Healer, per se - in his earlier personification as >>>> Dhanvantari it was he who brought out from the depths of the primeval >>>> ocean the pot with amrita, the Nectar of Immortality. >>>> >>>> In our times his powers weaken, he is unable to counteract The Virulent >>>> Serpent's (Tatig Nag, epic Takshaka) poison - and so he asks his disciples >>>> to eat the flesh of their dying Master - so that his great healing powers >>>> are not lost to humanity. >>>> >>>> That motif relates the epic to tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra >>>> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. >>>> >>>> Some others have their source in folk-lore; spells found in the text >>>> belong to medicinal magic lore. >>>> >>>> The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me >>>> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as >>>> attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out >>>> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and then using >>>> them freely in their own performances. >>>> >>>> I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W >>>> India's culture. >>>> >>>> In fact, their text can be easily made into a scenario for one of those >>>> C-class Hindi movies, perhaps - even a series of such movies. I, >>>> personally, would guarantee their instant popularity. >>>> >>>> My Polish translation of "Princess Niwal-Dai"/"?ahr Safidon ki Kahani" >>>> is ready, it's going to be published, hopefully soon, under the title >>>> "Daughter of a Thousand Serpents" ("C?rka Tysi?ca W???w"). >>>> >>>> In some, again hopefully near, future, the text, together with the >>>> Astika-parvan of the Mbh., is going to be used in a planned comparative >>>> study, under the working title: "?ahr Safidon [...] and Astika-Parvan: Two >>>> Strategies for Survival". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> from Warsaw, >>>> >>>> Artur >>>> >>>> >>>> 2016-04-27 7:16 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : >>>> >>>>> The narrative under question is a legend. Legends are a genre of folk >>>>> narratives. They differ from 'history' in having unrealistic and >>>>> scientifically not verified elements. Dhanthar Baid is such a character >>>>> without historical evidence. The 'visionary' (dreamlike and as such >>>>> requiring symbolic interpretation , are part of legends as much as of the >>>>> other genres of folk narratives. >>>>> >>>>> One of the distinctions of modern studies of culture in contrast to >>>>> traditional localized studies of the native cultures by the natives, is >>>>> comparative study. >>>>> >>>>> For such a comparison we may have to look at the motifs of cannibalism >>>>> in cultures outside India. The following links provide some such >>>>> information: >>>>> >>>>> http://listverse.com/2012/12/05/top-10-truly-disturbing-fairy-tales/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.cracked.com/article_15962_the-gruesome-origins-5-popular-fairy-tales.html >>>>> http://www.cultcase.com/2008/09/five-creepy-cannibalism-themes-in.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sharing pdf of a dissertation and snapshots of an Encyclopedia >>>>> article. >>>>> >>>>> For a comparative study of historical interpretations of cannibalism >>>>> in reality, the following links may be useful: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/?no-ist >>>>> >>>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141858/Tough-news-swallow-Europeans-saw-wrong-cannibalism-1900s-new-books-claim.html >>>>> >>>>> Comparative studies may help in understanding both commonalities and >>>>> distinct specifics. >>>>> >>>>> To understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other >>>>> components of each of the cultural complex may help. >>>>> >>>>> -N >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:51 AM, rajam wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ///Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit >>>>>> of the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, /// >>>>>> >>>>>> Hmmm ? this certainly is a new speculation as far as I am concerned! >>>>>> For me, ?inoculation? is something medicinal and physical, not ritual and >>>>>> literary. I?d like to learn more about it. Please educate me. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ///the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm >>>>>> itself./// >>>>>> >>>>>> This statement is even more confusing. 'Dead spirit harming itself?' >>>>>> What does that mean? You should educate me. >>>>>> >>>>>> ++++++++++ >>>>>> >>>>>> There are quite a few references to ?cannibalism? in Old Tamil >>>>>> (Sangam literature, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai), Kalingathupparani, and a >>>>>> later hagiographic Tamil literature (Periyapuranam) perhaps depicting the >>>>>> later-developed k?p?lika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalika) >>>>>> tradition. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, none of the Tamil references point to ?acquiring? the other >>>>>> party?s (== the consumed ones?) flesh or life. And, the consumed ones were >>>>>> not always a king?s enemies. >>>>>> >>>>>> I wish scholars would abstain from making sweeping statements about a >>>>>> foreign culture/literature. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks and regards, >>>>>> rajam >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 12:46 PM, George Hart >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don?t think >>>>>> it applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. Rather, >>>>>> the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead >>>>>> person by creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being that >>>>>> the dead spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the >>>>>> strength of someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the >>>>>> purpose of consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has >>>>>> shown by being defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed >>>>>> you to prevail. In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war >>>>>> sacrifice, in which body parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked >>>>>> (boiled), though there is no evidence that the resultant ?food? was >>>>>> actually eaten. And in the Kali?kattuppara?i, there are long descriptions >>>>>> of ghosts and macabre deities feasting on the war dead. George >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> ?The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you >>>>>> inherit his powers. In ?The Story of the Grandmother? , a folk version of >>>>>> ?Little Red Riding Hood? the girl eats his grandmother?s flesh and drinks >>>>>> her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism, >>>>>> but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix >>>>>> which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older >>>>>> often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified >>>>>> receiving magical power.? >>>>>> ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around >>>>>> the World >>>>>> >>>>>> By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365 >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi < >>>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Prof. Karp, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You must be aware of these words from the Bible. ?You Must Eat >>>>>>> My Flesh? I found a discussion here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and >>>>>>> drink his blood. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two >>>>>>> expressions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -N >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>>>>> From: Dean Michael Anderson >>>>>>>> To: Artur Karp >>>>>>>> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya , indology < >>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC) >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer >>>>>>>> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in >>>>>>>> the remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare >>>>>>>> European saintly relics. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Grisly, indeed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dean >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> *From:* Artur Karp >>>>>>>> *To:* Dean Michael Anderson >>>>>>>> *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya ; indology < >>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM >>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a >>>>>>>> healer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s >>>>>>>> Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that >>>>>>>> his healing powers would not be lost. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, also - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Artur >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson < >>>>>>>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" >>>>>>>> tantra. I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places >>>>>>>> with famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard >>>>>>>> the bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I >>>>>>>> have read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen >>>>>>>> it. It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians >>>>>>>> and Nepalis. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dean Anderson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The >>>>>>>> Legends of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, >>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>> Princess Niwal Da?, As su >>>>>>>> ?n >>>>>>>> g >>>>>>>> ?b >>>>>>>> y t >>>>>>>> ?wo >>>>>>>> s >>>>>>>> ?c >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> ?v >>>>>>>> e >>>>>>>> ?n >>>>>>>> gers >>>>>>>> ?f? >>>>>>>> ro >>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>> Bi >>>>>>>> ?b >>>>>>>> iy?l >>>>>>>> ?V >>>>>>>> illage >>>>>>>> ?n >>>>>>>> ear A >>>>>>>> ?mb >>>>>>>> ?l?), >>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to >>>>>>>> gain his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks in advance, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Artur Karp >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Warsaw >>>>>>>> Poland >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>>>> >>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>>> >>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>>> >>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>>> >>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>>> >>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>> committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>> committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>> committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> >>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>> >>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>> >>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>> >>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 10:59:46 2016 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 16:29:46 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] a i and ai In-Reply-To: <82B9A9C5-4115-474D-BBD4-CFA9B32FD376@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: Dear Professor Ville, Will the following help? a? =a+i *i.e.* two phonemes ? and ? ai=diphthong ? Best DB On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Christophe Vielle < christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote: > Dear List, > is there a way in Roman script for distinguishing in a compound the result > of -*a? *+ vowel other than *a *which could be *i* = * a i*, with hiatus, > from the diphthong* ai* resulting from *a/**? + e/ai* ? > *ex. man**a? + indriya- = manaindrya-* (?) beside* m**?nasa + aindriya = * > *m**?nasaindriya* > In n?gar? script I find written *mana indrya-* with a space put between > the two members, but it would look strange in Roman script. > Any suggestion welcome. > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > > > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Wed Apr 27 11:40:24 2016 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 13:40:24 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] a i and ai In-Reply-To: <57208FC5.8156.841141@dermot.grevatt.force9.co.uk> Message-ID: <1DCB55B5-3431-4639-BD4C-E09A25591C4D@uclouvain.be> Thank you to the colleagues for their valuable remarks and suggestions. Within a compound, I would adopt in this case the solution of the diaeresis/trema (Monier-Willams, Bloomfield, etc.), mana?+indriya- = mana?ndriya, and keep, distinctly, the apostrophe for the different case where an initial a is elided e.g. mana?+artha = mano'rtha. Best wishes, Christophe Le 27 avr. 2016 ? 12:09, a ?crit : > Dear Sven, > > Thank you for pointing this out. Yes, in a compound I'd put a hyphen, not a space. > > With best wishes, > > Dermot > > On 27 Apr 2016 at 11:57, Sven Sellmer wrote: > > Dear Dermot and Christophe, > > yotsya iti does not seem to be a proper example, because it is no compound. I personally > would use a hyphen, like so: > > mana-indriya- > > Best wishes, > Sven > > Am 27.04.2016 um 11:39 schrieb dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk: > > Dear Christophe, > > The usual practice in roman script is to separate the two vowels with a space, showing > that they are not a diphthong but belong to two different syllables. E.g. > > mana + indriya- = mana indriya- > > I don't think that looks strange. You can see it for instance in Edgerton's Bhagavadgita > (Harvard U. Press, 1952) ch 2 verse 9c: na yotsya iti govindam (na + yotsye + iti). > > By the way, what distinguishes the separate vowels from the diphthong in nagari is not > the space (which isn't always marked in manuscripts) but the fact that the second > vowel (in your case the i) is written with a character, not with a stroke added to a > consonant character. This makes a space possible, though not necessary. Indeed, > such hiatus can occur within a word, which is rare in Sanskrit (e.g. pra'uga "the forepart > of the shafts of a chariot; triangle"), but common in Prakrit. Here, it would be very odd > to write a space, since it's within a word. I've marked the hiatus with an apostrophe, but > Monier-Williams does it with diaeresis/tr?ma (two superscript dots). > > I hope that solves your doubts quicker than Arjuna's. > > With best wishes, > > Dermot > > On 27 Apr 2016 at 10:59, Christophe Vielle wrote: > > Dear List, > is there a way in Roman script for distinguishing in a compound the result of - a + > vowel other than a which could be i = a i, with hiatus, from the diphthong ai resulting from a/a > + e/ai ? > ex. mana + indriya- = manaindrya- (?) beside manasa + aindriya = manasaindriya > In n?gar? script I find written mana indrya- with a space put between the two members, but it > would look strange in Roman script. > Any suggestion welcome. > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > > > > ------------------- > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > -- > Dermot Killingley > 9, Rectory Drive, > Gosforth, > Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT > Phone (0191) 285 8053 > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > -- > Dermot Killingley > 9, Rectory Drive, > Gosforth, > Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT > Phone (0191) 285 8053 ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 16:03:06 2016 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 21:33:06 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] a i and ai In-Reply-To: <1DCB55B5-3431-4639-BD4C-E09A25591C4D@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: I should have rather written a? =a+i that is with hiatus The script was distorted by Windows that types *i* in upper case by default. Best DB On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Christophe Vielle < christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote: > Thank you to the colleagues for their valuable remarks and suggestions. > Within a compound, I would adopt in this case the solution of the > diaeresis/trema (Monier-Willams, Bloomfield, etc.), mana?+indriya- = > mana?ndriya, and keep, distinctly, the apostrophe for the different case > where an initial a is elided e.g. mana?+artha = mano'rtha. > Best wishes, > Christophe > > Le 27 avr. 2016 ? 12:09, < > dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk> a ?crit : > > Dear Sven, > > Thank you for pointing this out. Yes, in a compound I'd put a hyphen, not > a space. > > With best wishes, > > Dermot > > On 27 Apr 2016 at 11:57, Sven Sellmer wrote: > > Dear Dermot and Christophe, > > yotsya iti does not seem to be a proper example, because it is no > compound. I personally > would use a hyphen, like so: > > mana-indriya- > > Best wishes, > Sven > > Am 27.04.2016 um 11:39 schrieb dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk: > > Dear Christophe, > > The usual practice in roman script is to separate the two vowels with a > space, showing > that they are not a diphthong but belong to two different syllables. > E.g. > > mana + indriya- = mana indriya- > > I don't think that looks strange. You can see it for instance in > Edgerton's Bhagavadgita > (Harvard U. Press, 1952) ch 2 verse 9c: na yotsya iti govindam (na + > yotsye + iti). > > By the way, what distinguishes the separate vowels from the diphthong > in nagari is not > the space (which isn't always marked in manuscripts) but the fact that > the second > vowel (in your case the i) is written with a character, not with a > stroke added to a > consonant character. This makes a space possible, though not necessary. > Indeed, > such hiatus can occur within a word, which is rare in Sanskrit (e.g. > pra'uga "the forepart > of the shafts of a chariot; triangle"), but common in Prakrit. Here, it > would be very odd > to write a space, since it's within a word. I've marked the hiatus with > an apostrophe, but > Monier-Williams does it with diaeresis/tr?ma (two superscript dots). > > I hope that solves your doubts quicker than Arjuna's. > > With best wishes, > > Dermot > > On 27 Apr 2016 at 10:59, Christophe Vielle wrote: > > Dear List, > is there a way in Roman script for distinguishing in a compound the > result of - a + > vowel other than a which could be i = a i, with hiatus, from the > diphthong ai resulting from a/a > + e/ai ? > ex. mana + indriya- = manaindrya- (?) beside manasa + aindriya = > manasaindriya > In n?gar? script I find written mana indrya- with a space put between > the two members, but it > would look strange in Roman script. > Any suggestion welcome. > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > > > > ------------------- > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > -- > Dermot Killingley > 9, Rectory Drive, > Gosforth, > Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT > Phone (0191) 285 8053 > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) > > > -- > Dermot Killingley > 9, Rectory Drive, > Gosforth, > Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT > Phone (0191) 285 8053 > > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 18:01:55 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 23:31:55 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: " Legends " may be downloaded from https://archive.org/download/cu31924070625839/cu31924070625839.pdf Saeed Bhutta's book Urdu with English. It is here: https://archive.org/download/TheVersifiedUrduTranslationsOfBabaFareedsPoeticalWorks/The_Legends_of_The_Punjab__Some_New_Insights.pdf On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > Dear Nagaraj, > > First - its really gratifying to find here someone of matching research > interests. > > > > I don't seem to be able to find Richard Temple's "Legends" on > Archive.org. > > My advanced age? > > Could you, please, send me the link to the "Legends"? > > You may, perhaps and hopefully, want to read my already oldish (1981) > paper on "Reward and Punishment in Indian Folk-tales", > > at: > > https://uw.academia.edu/AKarp > > > Artur > > > > > > 2016-04-27 12:15 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > >> If anyone would want to try out the powers of their intellect - and read >> my Polish rendering of the text, >> >> :) >> >> >> here it is: >> >> 2016-04-27 12:08 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : >> >>> > a study by Saeed Bhutta >>> >>> English - or Urdu? Both? >>> >>> If it's in English, could you, please, send me a PDF-copy? >>> >>> Artur >>> >>> 2016-04-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : >>> >>>> > Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it? >>>> >>>> -- Frankly, before reading your post, I did not read it. But your post >>>> inspired me to download it from the Archive.org >>>> >>>> I read a study by Saeed Bhutta downloading from the same website. >>>> >>>> I called it a legend as per the title given to the book. >>>> >>>> >The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me >>>> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as >>>> >attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out >>>> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and >then using >>>> them freely in their own performances. >>>> >>>> ------ I agree with this view. My fieldworks too taught me that the >>>> romanticizations and imaginations of 'pure' folk forms and isolated >>>> existences of the folk performers without any watching / listening of the >>>> classical and other forms by them are wrong. >>>> >>>> > I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W >>>> India's culture. >>>> >>>> --- I agree. I collaborated in an ESRC funded research project with >>>> Prof. Simon Charsley of Glasgow university and others with this theme of >>>> such folk performers similar to those of Scavengers Community being >>>> 'active participants in and co-creators of' Telugu culture. >>>> >>>> >That motif relates the epic to tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra >>>> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. >>>> >>>> Epic is the genre of literary expression. Legend is that of the >>>> narrative expressed through that literary form. >>>> >>>> Tantrik ? Is it so clear? Not sure. >>>> >>>> > may belong to them ( tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra forms) >>>> >>>> -- May or may not. I would not say for sure until and unless I find any >>>> thing like consuming the Master's flesh in either the theory or practice of >>>> tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra forms. >>>> >>>> Aghoris do not go in search of their master's corpse. >>>> >>>> At least in theory, they, in their attempt to experience 'nothing is >>>> ghora' , go in search of those materials which are considered as ghora by >>>> the general society or even by themselves before their initiation into the >>>> tradition. >>>> >>>> In any case your attempt to understand it through such aspects as >>>> tantra matches with my point " >>>> to understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other >>>> components of each of the cultural complex may help. >>>> " >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Nagaraj >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> A legend. >>>>> >>>>> Definitely - more than that. >>>>> >>>>> Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Now, considering the milieu in which the epic (I'll insist on using >>>>> this term - OK - folk epic) was created and recreated, I am more than just >>>>> curious about the *channels of transmission* - many of the motives >>>>> present in the text have their origin in the Rajput lore (which, in its >>>>> turn, freely uses Sanskrit epics narrative material). >>>>> >>>>> Dhanatthar is The Healer, per se - in his earlier personification as >>>>> Dhanvantari it was he who brought out from the depths of the primeval >>>>> ocean the pot with amrita, the Nectar of Immortality. >>>>> >>>>> In our times his powers weaken, he is unable to counteract The >>>>> Virulent Serpent's (Tatig Nag, epic Takshaka) poison - and so he asks his >>>>> disciples to eat the flesh of their dying Master - so that his great >>>>> healing powers are not lost to humanity. >>>>> >>>>> That motif relates the epic to tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra >>>>> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. >>>>> >>>>> Some others have their source in folk-lore; spells found in the text >>>>> belong to medicinal magic lore. >>>>> >>>>> The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me >>>>> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as >>>>> attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out >>>>> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and then using >>>>> them freely in their own performances. >>>>> >>>>> I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W >>>>> India's culture. >>>>> >>>>> In fact, their text can be easily made into a scenario for one of >>>>> those C-class Hindi movies, perhaps - even a series of such movies. I, >>>>> personally, would guarantee their instant popularity. >>>>> >>>>> My Polish translation of "Princess Niwal-Dai"/"?ahr Safidon ki Kahani" >>>>> is ready, it's going to be published, hopefully soon, under the title >>>>> "Daughter of a Thousand Serpents" ("C?rka Tysi?ca W???w"). >>>>> >>>>> In some, again hopefully near, future, the text, together with the >>>>> Astika-parvan of the Mbh., is going to be used in a planned comparative >>>>> study, under the working title: "?ahr Safidon [...] and Astika-Parvan: Two >>>>> Strategies for Survival". >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> from Warsaw, >>>>> >>>>> Artur >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2016-04-27 7:16 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : >>>>> >>>>>> The narrative under question is a legend. Legends are a genre of folk >>>>>> narratives. They differ from 'history' in having unrealistic and >>>>>> scientifically not verified elements. Dhanthar Baid is such a character >>>>>> without historical evidence. The 'visionary' (dreamlike and as such >>>>>> requiring symbolic interpretation , are part of legends as much as of the >>>>>> other genres of folk narratives. >>>>>> >>>>>> One of the distinctions of modern studies of culture in contrast to >>>>>> traditional localized studies of the native cultures by the natives, is >>>>>> comparative study. >>>>>> >>>>>> For such a comparison we may have to look at the motifs of >>>>>> cannibalism in cultures outside India. The following links provide some >>>>>> such information: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://listverse.com/2012/12/05/top-10-truly-disturbing-fairy-tales/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.cracked.com/article_15962_the-gruesome-origins-5-popular-fairy-tales.html >>>>>> http://www.cultcase.com/2008/09/five-creepy-cannibalism-themes-in.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sharing pdf of a dissertation and snapshots of an Encyclopedia >>>>>> article. >>>>>> >>>>>> For a comparative study of historical interpretations of cannibalism >>>>>> in reality, the following links may be useful: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/?no-ist >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141858/Tough-news-swallow-Europeans-saw-wrong-cannibalism-1900s-new-books-claim.html >>>>>> >>>>>> Comparative studies may help in understanding both commonalities and >>>>>> distinct specifics. >>>>>> >>>>>> To understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other >>>>>> components of each of the cultural complex may help. >>>>>> >>>>>> -N >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:51 AM, rajam wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> ///Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit >>>>>>> of the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, /// >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hmmm ? this certainly is a new speculation as far as I am concerned! >>>>>>> For me, ?inoculation? is something medicinal and physical, not ritual and >>>>>>> literary. I?d like to learn more about it. Please educate me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ///the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm >>>>>>> itself./// >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This statement is even more confusing. 'Dead spirit harming itself?' >>>>>>> What does that mean? You should educate me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ++++++++++ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are quite a few references to ?cannibalism? in Old Tamil >>>>>>> (Sangam literature, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai), Kalingathupparani, and a >>>>>>> later hagiographic Tamil literature (Periyapuranam) perhaps depicting the >>>>>>> later-developed k?p?lika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalika) >>>>>>> tradition. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> However, none of the Tamil references point to ?acquiring? the other >>>>>>> party?s (== the consumed ones?) flesh or life. And, the consumed ones were >>>>>>> not always a king?s enemies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wish scholars would abstain from making sweeping statements about >>>>>>> a foreign culture/literature. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks and regards, >>>>>>> rajam >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 12:46 PM, George Hart >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don?t think >>>>>>> it applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. Rather, >>>>>>> the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead >>>>>>> person by creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being that >>>>>>> the dead spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the >>>>>>> strength of someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the >>>>>>> purpose of consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has >>>>>>> shown by being defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed >>>>>>> you to prevail. In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war >>>>>>> sacrifice, in which body parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked >>>>>>> (boiled), though there is no evidence that the resultant ?food? was >>>>>>> actually eaten. And in the Kali?kattuppara?i, there are long descriptions >>>>>>> of ghosts and macabre deities feasting on the war dead. George >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi < >>>>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you >>>>>>> inherit his powers. In ?The Story of the Grandmother? , a folk version of >>>>>>> ?Little Red Riding Hood? the girl eats his grandmother?s flesh and drinks >>>>>>> her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism, >>>>>>> but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix >>>>>>> which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older >>>>>>> often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified >>>>>>> receiving magical power.? >>>>>>> ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around >>>>>>> the World >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi < >>>>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prof. Karp, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You must be aware of these words from the Bible. ?You Must Eat >>>>>>>> My Flesh? I found a discussion here: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and >>>>>>>> drink his blood. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the >>>>>>>> two expressions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -N >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>>>>>>>> managing committee) >>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>>>>>> From: Dean Michael Anderson >>>>>>>>> To: Artur Karp >>>>>>>>> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya , indology < >>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC) >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a >>>>>>>>> healer >>>>>>>>> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in >>>>>>>>> the remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare >>>>>>>>> European saintly relics. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Grisly, indeed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dean >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> *From:* Artur Karp >>>>>>>>> *To:* Dean Michael Anderson >>>>>>>>> *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya ; indology < >>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a >>>>>>>>> healer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s >>>>>>>>> Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that >>>>>>>>> his healing powers would not be lost. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, also - >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Artur >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson < >>>>>>>>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" >>>>>>>>> tantra. I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places >>>>>>>>> with famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard >>>>>>>>> the bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I >>>>>>>>> have read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen >>>>>>>>> it. It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians >>>>>>>>> and Nepalis. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dean Anderson >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The >>>>>>>>> Legends of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, >>>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>>> Princess Niwal Da?, As su >>>>>>>>> ?n >>>>>>>>> g >>>>>>>>> ?b >>>>>>>>> y t >>>>>>>>> ?wo >>>>>>>>> s >>>>>>>>> ?c >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> ?v >>>>>>>>> e >>>>>>>>> ?n >>>>>>>>> gers >>>>>>>>> ?f? >>>>>>>>> ro >>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>> Bi >>>>>>>>> ?b >>>>>>>>> iy?l >>>>>>>>> ?V >>>>>>>>> illage >>>>>>>>> ?n >>>>>>>>> ear A >>>>>>>>> ?mb >>>>>>>>> ?l?), >>>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>>> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to >>>>>>>>> gain his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Artur Karp >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Warsaw >>>>>>>>> Poland >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>>>>>>>> managing committee) >>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>>>>>>>> managing committee) >>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal >>>>>>>> Education, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>>>> >>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>>> >>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>>> >>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>>> >>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>>> >>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>> committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>> >>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>> >>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>> >>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>> >>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Wed Apr 27 18:25:17 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 20:25:17 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Great thanks for the link to "Legends" ---- !!! I have my own copy (a reprint), but the pdf offers the search/find tool. Dear Nagaraj, my Urdu is not sufficient to freely read scientific papers; a smattering of it obtained during my stay in Delhi (1973-1977), not developed, already sinking into oblivion. Is there any English version of the paper? Artur 2016-04-27 20:01 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : > " Legends " may be downloaded from > https://archive.org/download/cu31924070625839/cu31924070625839.pdf > Saeed Bhutta's book Urdu with English. It is here: > > https://archive.org/download/TheVersifiedUrduTranslationsOfBabaFareedsPoeticalWorks/The_Legends_of_The_Punjab__Some_New_Insights.pdf > > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > >> Dear Nagaraj, >> >> First - its really gratifying to find here someone of matching research >> interests. >> >> >> >> I don't seem to be able to find Richard Temple's "Legends" on >> Archive.org. >> >> My advanced age? >> >> Could you, please, send me the link to the "Legends"? >> >> You may, perhaps and hopefully, want to read my already oldish (1981) >> paper on "Reward and Punishment in Indian Folk-tales", >> >> at: >> >> https://uw.academia.edu/AKarp >> >> >> Artur >> >> >> >> >> >> 2016-04-27 12:15 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : >> >>> If anyone would want to try out the powers of their intellect - and read >>> my Polish rendering of the text, >>> >>> :) >>> >>> >>> here it is: >>> >>> 2016-04-27 12:08 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : >>> >>>> > a study by Saeed Bhutta >>>> >>>> English - or Urdu? Both? >>>> >>>> If it's in English, could you, please, send me a PDF-copy? >>>> >>>> Artur >>>> >>>> 2016-04-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : >>>> >>>>> > Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it? >>>>> >>>>> -- Frankly, before reading your post, I did not read it. But your post >>>>> inspired me to download it from the Archive.org >>>>> >>>>> I read a study by Saeed Bhutta downloading from the same website. >>>>> >>>>> I called it a legend as per the title given to the book. >>>>> >>>>> >The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me >>>>> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as >>>>> >attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out >>>>> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and >then using >>>>> them freely in their own performances. >>>>> >>>>> ------ I agree with this view. My fieldworks too taught me that the >>>>> romanticizations and imaginations of 'pure' folk forms and isolated >>>>> existences of the folk performers without any watching / listening of the >>>>> classical and other forms by them are wrong. >>>>> >>>>> > I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W >>>>> India's culture. >>>>> >>>>> --- I agree. I collaborated in an ESRC funded research project with >>>>> Prof. Simon Charsley of Glasgow university and others with this theme of >>>>> such folk performers similar to those of Scavengers Community being >>>>> 'active participants in and co-creators of' Telugu culture. >>>>> >>>>> >That motif relates the epic to tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra >>>>> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. >>>>> >>>>> Epic is the genre of literary expression. Legend is that of the >>>>> narrative expressed through that literary form. >>>>> >>>>> Tantrik ? Is it so clear? Not sure. >>>>> >>>>> > may belong to them ( tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra forms) >>>>> >>>>> -- May or may not. I would not say for sure until and unless I find >>>>> any thing like consuming the Master's flesh in either the theory or >>>>> practice of tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra forms. >>>>> >>>>> Aghoris do not go in search of their master's corpse. >>>>> >>>>> At least in theory, they, in their attempt to experience 'nothing is >>>>> ghora' , go in search of those materials which are considered as ghora by >>>>> the general society or even by themselves before their initiation into the >>>>> tradition. >>>>> >>>>> In any case your attempt to understand it through such aspects as >>>>> tantra matches with my point " >>>>> to understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other >>>>> components of each of the cultural complex may help. >>>>> " >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Artur Karp wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Nagaraj >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >> A legend. >>>>>> >>>>>> Definitely - more than that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, considering the milieu in which the epic (I'll insist on using >>>>>> this term - OK - folk epic) was created and recreated, I am more than just >>>>>> curious about the *channels of transmission* - many of the motives >>>>>> present in the text have their origin in the Rajput lore (which, in its >>>>>> turn, freely uses Sanskrit epics narrative material). >>>>>> >>>>>> Dhanatthar is The Healer, per se - in his earlier personification as >>>>>> Dhanvantari it was he who brought out from the depths of the primeval >>>>>> ocean the pot with amrita, the Nectar of Immortality. >>>>>> >>>>>> In our times his powers weaken, he is unable to counteract The >>>>>> Virulent Serpent's (Tatig Nag, epic Takshaka) poison - and so he asks his >>>>>> disciples to eat the flesh of their dying Master - so that his great >>>>>> healing powers are not lost to humanity. >>>>>> >>>>>> That motif relates the epic to tantrik traditions, in their v?m?c?ra >>>>>> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some others have their source in folk-lore; spells found in the text >>>>>> belong to medicinal magic lore. >>>>>> >>>>>> The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me >>>>>> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as >>>>>> attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out >>>>>> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and then using >>>>>> them freely in their own performances. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W >>>>>> India's culture. >>>>>> >>>>>> In fact, their text can be easily made into a scenario for one of >>>>>> those C-class Hindi movies, perhaps - even a series of such movies. I, >>>>>> personally, would guarantee their instant popularity. >>>>>> >>>>>> My Polish translation of "Princess Niwal-Dai"/"?ahr Safidon ki >>>>>> Kahani" is ready, it's going to be published, hopefully soon, under the >>>>>> title "Daughter of a Thousand Serpents" ("C?rka Tysi?ca W???w"). >>>>>> >>>>>> In some, again hopefully near, future, the text, together with the >>>>>> Astika-parvan of the Mbh., is going to be used in a planned comparative >>>>>> study, under the working title: "?ahr Safidon [...] and Astika-Parvan: Two >>>>>> Strategies for Survival". >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> from Warsaw, >>>>>> >>>>>> Artur >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2016-04-27 7:16 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : >>>>>> >>>>>>> The narrative under question is a legend. Legends are a genre of >>>>>>> folk narratives. They differ from 'history' in having unrealistic and >>>>>>> scientifically not verified elements. Dhanthar Baid is such a character >>>>>>> without historical evidence. The 'visionary' (dreamlike and as such >>>>>>> requiring symbolic interpretation , are part of legends as much as of the >>>>>>> other genres of folk narratives. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One of the distinctions of modern studies of culture in contrast to >>>>>>> traditional localized studies of the native cultures by the natives, is >>>>>>> comparative study. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For such a comparison we may have to look at the motifs of >>>>>>> cannibalism in cultures outside India. The following links provide some >>>>>>> such information: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://listverse.com/2012/12/05/top-10-truly-disturbing-fairy-tales/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.cracked.com/article_15962_the-gruesome-origins-5-popular-fairy-tales.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.cultcase.com/2008/09/five-creepy-cannibalism-themes-in.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sharing pdf of a dissertation and snapshots of an Encyclopedia >>>>>>> article. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For a comparative study of historical interpretations of cannibalism >>>>>>> in reality, the following links may be useful: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/?no-ist >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141858/Tough-news-swallow-Europeans-saw-wrong-cannibalism-1900s-new-books-claim.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Comparative studies may help in understanding both commonalities and >>>>>>> distinct specifics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, >>>>>>> other components of each of the cultural complex may help. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -N >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:51 AM, rajam wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ///Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the >>>>>>>> spirit of the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, >>>>>>>> /// >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hmmm ? this certainly is a new speculation as far as I am >>>>>>>> concerned! For me, ?inoculation? is something medicinal and physical, not >>>>>>>> ritual and literary. I?d like to learn more about it. Please >>>>>>>> educate me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ///the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm >>>>>>>> itself./// >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This statement is even more confusing. 'Dead spirit harming >>>>>>>> itself?' What does that mean? You should educate me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ++++++++++ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are quite a few references to ?cannibalism? in Old Tamil >>>>>>>> (Sangam literature, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai), Kalingathupparani, and a >>>>>>>> later hagiographic Tamil literature (Periyapuranam) perhaps depicting the >>>>>>>> later-developed k?p?lika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalika) >>>>>>>> tradition. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> However, none of the Tamil references point to ?acquiring? the >>>>>>>> other party?s (== the consumed ones?) flesh or life. And, the consumed ones >>>>>>>> were not always a king?s enemies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wish scholars would abstain from making sweeping statements about >>>>>>>> a foreign culture/literature. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks and regards, >>>>>>>> rajam >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 12:46 PM, George Hart >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don?t >>>>>>>> think it applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. >>>>>>>> Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the >>>>>>>> dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being >>>>>>>> that the dead spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the >>>>>>>> strength of someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the >>>>>>>> purpose of consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has >>>>>>>> shown by being defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed >>>>>>>> you to prevail. In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war >>>>>>>> sacrifice, in which body parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked >>>>>>>> (boiled), though there is no evidence that the resultant ?food? was >>>>>>>> actually eaten. And in the Kali?kattuppara?i, there are long descriptions >>>>>>>> of ghosts and macabre deities feasting on the war dead. George >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi < >>>>>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you >>>>>>>> inherit his powers. In ?The Story of the Grandmother? , a folk version of >>>>>>>> ?Little Red Riding Hood? the girl eats his grandmother?s flesh and drinks >>>>>>>> her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism, >>>>>>>> but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix >>>>>>>> which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older >>>>>>>> often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified >>>>>>>> receiving magical power.? >>>>>>>> ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around >>>>>>>> the World >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi < >>>>>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Prof. Karp, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You must be aware of these words from the Bible. ?You Must Eat >>>>>>>>> My Flesh? I found a discussion here: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and >>>>>>>>> drink his blood. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the >>>>>>>>> two expressions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -N >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via >>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>>>>>>>>> managing committee) >>>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>>>>>>> From: Dean Michael Anderson >>>>>>>>>> To: Artur Karp >>>>>>>>>> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya , indology < >>>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC) >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a >>>>>>>>>> healer >>>>>>>>>> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in >>>>>>>>>> the remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare >>>>>>>>>> European saintly relics. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Grisly, indeed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dean >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>> *From:* Artur Karp >>>>>>>>>> *To:* Dean Michael Anderson >>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya ; indology < >>>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM >>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a >>>>>>>>>> healer >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In ?ahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s >>>>>>>>>> Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that >>>>>>>>>> his healing powers would not be lost. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, also - >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Artur >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson < >>>>>>>>>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" >>>>>>>>>> tantra. I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places >>>>>>>>>> with famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard >>>>>>>>>> the bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I >>>>>>>>>> have read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen >>>>>>>>>> it. It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians >>>>>>>>>> and Nepalis. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dean Anderson >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In "?ahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The >>>>>>>>>> Legends of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI, >>>>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>>>> Princess Niwal Da?, As su >>>>>>>>>> ?n >>>>>>>>>> g >>>>>>>>>> ?b >>>>>>>>>> y t >>>>>>>>>> ?wo >>>>>>>>>> s >>>>>>>>>> ?c >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> ?v >>>>>>>>>> e >>>>>>>>>> ?n >>>>>>>>>> gers >>>>>>>>>> ?f? >>>>>>>>>> ro >>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>> Bi >>>>>>>>>> ?b >>>>>>>>>> iy?l >>>>>>>>>> ?V >>>>>>>>>> illage >>>>>>>>>> ?n >>>>>>>>>> ear A >>>>>>>>>> ?mb >>>>>>>>>> ?l?), >>>>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>>>> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] - >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order >>>>>>>>>> to gain his powers Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Artur Karp >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Warsaw >>>>>>>>>> Poland >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>>>>>>>>> managing committee) >>>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>>>>>>>>> managing committee) >>>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal >>>>>>>>> Education, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal >>>>>>>> Education, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>>>> >>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> >>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>> >>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>> >>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>> >>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 19:25:12 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 13:25:12 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: <57208626.9050005@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: Pata?jali says who he means by ??vara in the next s?tra: *??kle?akarmavip?k??ayair apar?m???a? puru?avi?e?a ??vara?* (YS 1.24) and unpacks this in his subsequent remarks . ? The discussion of the *?a?karavivara?a* on this point is lucidly translated and discussed in Harimoto, *God, Reason and Yoga*, 89 ff.? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk* Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity Department of History and Classics University of Alberta, Canada On 27 April 2016 at 03:28, Dr. T. Ganesan wrote: > > > > On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell wrote: > > The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on a more sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? in the ?ivayogad?pik?. > > > My observation on this point is: > Sankarapuujanam need be taken as 'a sectarian flavour'. For, Isvara denotes only Siva as we find in all the Upanishads and other texts; Svetasvataropanishad repeats this word denoting Siva many times and it can not be interpreted in any other way. > > As Kalidasa says in the invocatory verse of his drama, Vikramorvasiyam, > > ved?nte?u yam?hurekapuru?a? vy?pya sthita? rodas? / > > yasminn??vara ityananyavi?aya? ?abdo yath?rth?k?ara? / > > > Isvara denotes only Siva from the early period. Kalidasa is of the firm view that the entire Vedanta corpus (ved?nte?u) proclaims Siva to be the highest Reality (puru?a) that pervades all the universe. Kalidasa and Patanjali definitely belong to very early period. Thus by ??v?ra-pra?idh?na it is fully plausible and also possible, that Patanjali meant only worship of Siva. And, worshipping a supreme God need not be interpreted as ''sectarian''. One cannot ''worship'' a supreme reality which is nirguna. > > > Ganesan > > > > > > On 26-04-2016 21:53, Rafal Kleczek wrote: > > Thank you very much for your observations. I have not been aware of the variations on the concept of yama/niyama in Puranas and later Yogic texts, it is most interesting. > The subject of difference in "niyama" regulations for ascetics at different stages in Kau??inya's theory is quite interesting. Kau??inya himself considers it a peculiar trait of the system, or scripture ("tantra"). At the same time, a similar differentiation of niyama rules seems to be accepted by some early Naiy?yikas, who otherwise seem to follow quite closely the theory of Pata?jali (with regard to the practice of Yoga). > Even though it seems true, that Ny?ya came under influence of P??upata authors at some point, this idea of differentiation of niyamas is hinted at even in V?tsy?yana's Bh??ya--which was written too early to speak about P??upata influence, I think. Hence the search for other possible sources of this peculiar variation. > With best wishes, > Rafal > > On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell wrote: >> >> Dear Rafal, >> >> Later medieval tantric and Ha?hayoga treatises sometimes include both 10 yamas and 10 niyamas. For example, Chapter 25 of the S?a?rada?tilakatantra, the ?ivayogad?pik?, Yogayaj??valkya, and many others ? and here, I imagine, particularly for the ?aiva texts, they might be drawing from the earlier P??upata yoga traditions. >> >> As always, across these yoga texts and traditions, there is fluidity and malleability, but they seem to all draw from a shared yama-niyama palette, if you will. The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on a more sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? in the ?ivayogad?pik?. >> >> Yet, often the medieval yoga texts appear to explicitly omit them, such as Sv?tm?r?ma?s Ha?haprad?pik? (although a later 10-chapter version of this text does include yamas and niyamas), and thus we are left to speculate on their optionality. Perhaps they were left to be filled in by a guru, or elsewhere from a sectarian tradition, or were in fact left out of yogic praxis entirely (although I doubt this). But I think it?s safe to say if they are included in a prescriptive yoga text, they were not considered optional for that author, but rather par for the course. This is most clear in the PY? and its commentaries, as Prof. Bryant astutely notes, but I think also holds for the later medieval texts as well. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Seth >> >> --- >> >> Seth D. Powell >> Doctoral Student >> Committee on the Study of Religion >> Harvard University >> >> ATG Student Consultant >> Academic Technology Group (ATG) >> Harvard University Information Technology >> >> p 707 494 4721 >> e sethpowell at g.harvard.edu >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 26, 2016, at 8:02 AM, edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu wrote: >> >> >> 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama regulations to be >> permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, depending on time, place, >> etc.? Is it a common understanding of the division between yama and niyama >> among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches of ??aivism? >> >> >> I don't recall reading this in any YS commentary. It probably comes from >> the idea that it is after the yama verse that Patanjali stresses (with >> uncharacteristic emphasis, one might add, both in terms of his own overall >> tone, and in terms of the sutra penchant for non-repetition or >> redundancy), that they are inviolable (i.e. he chose not to state this >> after the niyama verse which follows the yama verse). However, 3 of the >> niyamas are listed under kriya yoga in the opening verse of chapter 2, so, >> given they are repeated again in the astanga section there is no sense in >> the YS tradition that they are optional. >> >> 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama regulations? >> >> >> The Bhagavata Purana has 10 yamas. If the Pasupata texts have 10, I would >> probably search the Siva, Skandha or Linga puranas for precedents. >> >> With best wishes, Edwin Bryant. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uskokov at uchicago.edu Wed Apr 27 22:32:54 2016 From: uskokov at uchicago.edu (Aleksandar Uskokov) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 17:32:54 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: <57208626.9050005@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: Sankara in his Brhadaranyakabhasya most directly identifies Isvara with Narayana, isvaro narayanakhyah. Aside the Bhagavad-Gita (11th, 18th chapter), where the term refers clearly to Visnu/Krsna. One could probably find countless other instances where Isvara does not denote Siva, before and after Kalidasa. Gonda's "Change and Continuity in Indian Religion" would be a good place to start looking for these. Aleksandar On Apr 27, 2016 5:06 PM, "Dr. T. Ganesan" wrote: > > > On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell wrote: > > T*he ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on a more > sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as **s?an?kara-pu?janam? in > the **?ivayogad?pik?**. * > > > My observation on this point is: > Sankarapuujanam need be taken as 'a sectarian flavour'. For, Isvara > denotes only Siva as we find in all the Upanishads and other texts; > Svetasvataropanishad repeats this word denoting Siva many times and it can > not be interpreted in any other way. > > As Kalidasa says in the invocatory verse of his drama, Vikramorvasiyam, > > ved?nte?u yam?hurekapuru?a? vy?pya sthita? rodas? / > > yasminn??vara ityananyavi?aya? ?abdo yath?rth?k?ara? / > > Isvara denotes only Siva from the early period. Kalidasa is of the firm > view that the entire Vedanta corpus (ved?nte?u) proclaims Siva to be the > highest Reality (puru?a) that pervades all the universe. Kalidasa and > Patanjali definitely belong to very early period. Thus by > ??v?ra-pra?idh?na it is fully plausible and also possible, that > Patanjali meant only worship of Siva. And, worshipping a supreme God need > not be interpreted as ''sectarian''. One cannot ''worship'' a supreme > reality which is nirguna. > > > Ganesan > > > > > > On 26-04-2016 21:53, Rafal Kleczek wrote: > > Thank you very much for your observations. I have not been aware of the > variations on the concept of yama/niyama in Puranas and later Yogic texts, > it is most interesting. > The subject of difference in "niyama" regulations for ascetics at > different stages in Kau??inya's theory is quite interesting. Kau??inya > himself considers it a peculiar trait of the system, or scripture > ("tantra"). At the same time, a similar differentiation of niyama rules > seems to be accepted by some early Naiy?yikas, who otherwise seem to follow > quite closely the theory of Pata?jali (with regard to the practice of Yoga). > Even though it seems true, that Ny?ya came under influence of P??upata > authors at some point, this idea of differentiation of niyamas is hinted at > even in V?tsy?yana's Bh??ya--which was written too early to speak about > P??upata influence, I think. Hence the search for other possible sources of > this peculiar variation. > With best wishes, > Rafal > > On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell wrote: > >> Dear Rafal, >> >> Later medieval tantric and Ha?hayoga treatises sometimes include both 10 >> yamas and 10 niyamas. For example, Chapter 25 of the *S?a?rada?* >> *tilakatantra*, the *?ivayogad?pik?*, *Yogayaj??valkya*, and many >> others ? and here, I imagine, particularly for the ?aiva texts, they might >> be drawing from the earlier P??upata yoga traditions. >> >> As always, across these yoga texts and traditions, there is fluidity and >> malleability, but they seem to all draw from a shared yama-niyama palette, >> if you will. The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on >> a more sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? >> in the *?ivayogad?pik?*. >> >> Yet, often the medieval yoga texts appear to explicitly omit them, such >> as Sv?tm?r?ma?s *Ha?haprad?pik?* (although a later 10-chapter version of >> this text does include yamas and niyamas), and thus we are left to >> speculate on their optionality. Perhaps they were left to be filled in by a >> guru, or elsewhere from a sectarian tradition, or were in fact left out of >> yogic praxis entirely (although I doubt this). But I think it?s safe to say >> if they are included in a prescriptive yoga text, they were not considered >> optional for that author, but rather par for the course. This is most clear >> in the PY? and its commentaries, as Prof. Bryant astutely notes, but I >> think also holds for the later medieval texts as well. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Seth >> >> --- >> >> *Seth D. Powell* >> *Doctoral Student* >> Committee on the Study of Religion >> Harvard University >> >> *ATG Student Consultant* >> Academic Technology Group (ATG) >> Harvard University Information Technology >> >> *p* 707 494 4721 >> *e* sethpowell at g.harvard.edu >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 26, 2016, at 8:02 AM, edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu wrote: >> >> >> 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama regulations to be >> permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, depending on time, place, >> etc.? Is it a common understanding of the division between yama and niyama >> among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches of ??aivism? >> >> >> I don't recall reading this in any YS commentary. It probably comes from >> the idea that it is after the yama verse that Patanjali stresses (with >> uncharacteristic emphasis, one might add, both in terms of his own overall >> tone, and in terms of the sutra penchant for non-repetition or >> redundancy), that they are inviolable (i.e. he chose not to state this >> after the niyama verse which follows the yama verse). However, 3 of the >> niyamas are listed under kriya yoga in the opening verse of chapter 2, so, >> given they are repeated again in the astanga section there is no sense in >> the YS tradition that they are optional. >> >> 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama regulations? >> >> >> The Bhagavata Purana has 10 yamas. If the Pasupata texts have 10, I would >> probably search the Siva, Skandha or Linga puranas for precedents. >> >> With best wishes, Edwin Bryant. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 23:55:56 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 09:55:56 +1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] reference help Message-ID: Hello, Is anyone able to help me with referencing the following article? http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/vedica.pdf All the best, Patrick McCartney PhD Candidate School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney #yogabodyANU2016 symposium http://chl.anu.edu.au/news-events/events/658/yoga-and-body-past-and-present-symposium?#tab - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney * - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJy_Oqnqag8 http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be https://youtu.be/7tAp8m9RHPU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern at verizon.net Thu Apr 28 00:10:32 2016 From: emstern at verizon.net (Elliot Stern) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 16 20:10:32 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: <57208626.9050005@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: V?caspatimi?ra, generally understood to favor ?iva, acknowledges that adherents of the P?ta?jalayoga??stram consider Vi??u to be their ??vara. He says, in concluding his comment on ?dividv?nnirm??acittamadhi??h?ya k?ru?y?dbhagav?nparamar?ir?sur?ya jij??sam?n?ya tantra? prov?ca (yogabh??yam to yogas?tram 1.25): sa eve?vara ?dividv?nkapilo vi??urna<:> svayambh?riti bh?va?~| sv?yambhuv?n?? tv??vara iti bh?va?~| James Haughton Woods translates this as: [The reply would be that] this same ??vara, the First Knower, the Self-existent Vishnu [is] Kapila. "But [He is] the ??vara of those descended from the Self-existent." This is the point. Note that V?caspati frequently refers to adherents of the P?ta?jalayoga??stram as sv?yambhuva? (for example, in ny?yaka?ik?). Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America telephone: 215-747-6204 mobile: 267-240-8418 emstern at verizon.net > On 27 Apr 2016, at 05:28, Dr. T. Ganesan wrote: > > > > On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell < sethpowell at g.harvard.edu > wrote: >> The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on a more sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? in the ?ivayogad?pik?. > > My observation on this point is: > Sankarapuujanam need be taken as 'a sectarian flavour'. For, Isvara denotes only Siva as we find in all the Upanishads and other texts; Svetasvataropanishad repeats this word denoting Siva many times and it can not be interpreted in any other way. > > As Kalidasa says in the invocatory verse of his drama, Vikramorvasiyam, > ved?nte?u yam?hurekapuru?a? vy?pya sthita? rodas? / > > yasminn??vara ityananyavi?aya? ?abdo yath?rth?k?ara? / > > > Isvara denotes only Siva from the early period. Kalidasa is of the firm view that the entire Vedanta corpus (ved?nte?u) proclaims Siva to be the highest Reality (puru?a) that pervades all the universe. Kalidasa and Patanjali definitely belong to very early period. Thus by ??v?ra-pra?idh?na it is fully plausible and also possible, that Patanjali meant only worship of Siva. And, worshipping a supreme God need not be interpreted as ''sectarian''. One cannot ''worship'' a supreme reality which is nirguna. > > > Ganesan > > > > > > On 26-04-2016 21:53, Rafal Kleczek wrote: >> Thank you very much for your observations. I have not been aware of the variations on the concept of yama/niyama in Puranas and later Yogic texts, it is most interesting. >> The subject of difference in "niyama" regulations for ascetics at different stages in Kau??inya's theory is quite interesting. Kau??inya himself considers it a peculiar trait of the system, or scripture ("tantra"). At the same time, a similar differentiation of niyama rules seems to be accepted by some early Naiy?yikas, who otherwise seem to follow quite closely the theory of Pata?jali (with regard to the practice of Yoga). >> Even though it seems true, that Ny?ya came under influence of P??upata authors at some point, this idea of differentiation of niyamas is hinted at even in V?tsy?yana's Bh??ya--which was written too early to speak about P??upata influence, I think. Hence the search for other possible sources of this peculiar variation. >> With best wishes, >> Rafal >> >> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell > wrote: >> Dear Rafal, >> >> Later medieval tantric and Ha?hayoga treatises sometimes include both 10 yamas and 10 niyamas. For example, Chapter 25 of the S?a?rada?tilakatantra, the ?ivayogad?pik?, Yogayaj??valkya, and many others ? and here, I imagine, particularly for the ?aiva texts, they might be drawing from the earlier P??upata yoga traditions. >> >> As always, across these yoga texts and traditions, there is fluidity and malleability, but they seem to all draw from a shared yama-niyama palette, if you will. The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on a more sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? in the ?ivayogad?pik?. >> >> Yet, often the medieval yoga texts appear to explicitly omit them, such as Sv?tm?r?ma?s Ha?haprad?pik? (although a later 10-chapter version of this text does include yamas and niyamas), and thus we are left to speculate on their optionality. Perhaps they were left to be filled in by a guru, or elsewhere from a sectarian tradition, or were in fact left out of yogic praxis entirely (although I doubt this). But I think it?s safe to say if they are included in a prescriptive yoga text, they were not considered optional for that author, but rather par for the course. This is most clear in the PY? and its commentaries, as Prof. Bryant astutely notes, but I think also holds for the later medieval texts as well. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Seth >> >> --- >> >> Seth D. Powell >> Doctoral Student >> Committee on the Study of Religion >> Harvard University >> >> ATG Student Consultant >> Academic Technology Group (ATG) >> Harvard University Information Technology >> >> p 707 494 4721 >> e sethpowell at g.harvard.edu >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 26, 2016, at 8:02 AM, edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu wrote: >>> >>> >>>> 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama regulations to be >>>> permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, depending on time, place, >>>> etc.? Is it a common understanding of the division between yama and niyama >>>> among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches of ??aivism? >>> >>> I don't recall reading this in any YS commentary. It probably comes from >>> the idea that it is after the yama verse that Patanjali stresses (with >>> uncharacteristic emphasis, one might add, both in terms of his own overall >>> tone, and in terms of the sutra penchant for non-repetition or >>> redundancy), that they are inviolable (i.e. he chose not to state this >>> after the niyama verse which follows the yama verse). However, 3 of the >>> niyamas are listed under kriya yoga in the opening verse of chapter 2, so, >>> given they are repeated again in the astanga section there is no sense in >>> the YS tradition that they are optional. >>> >>>> 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama regulations? >>> >>> The Bhagavata Purana has 10 yamas. If the Pasupata texts have 10, I would >>> probably search the Siva, Skandha or Linga puranas for precedents. >>> >>> With best wishes, Edwin Bryant. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Thu Apr 28 00:11:15 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 02:11:15 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] reference help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Patrick, S. W. Jamison and M. Witzel *Vedic Hinduism. *In: A. Sharma (ed.), *The Study of Hinduism*. University of South Carolina Press 2003, 65-113 [written in 1992/95; *long versio*n: (1992) html file; *pdf *] It's No 95 in Michael Witzel's List of Publications: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwbib.htm Best, Artur Karp 2016-04-28 1:55 GMT+02:00 patrick mccartney : > Hello, > > Is anyone able to help me with referencing the following article? > > http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/vedica.pdf > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney > > PhD Candidate > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium > http://chl.anu.edu.au/news-events/events/658/yoga-and-body-past-and-present-symposium?#tab > > > > - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney > * > - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile > * > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJy_Oqnqag8 > > http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g > > http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be > > https://youtu.be/7tAp8m9RHPU > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 00:22:18 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 10:22:18 +1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] reference help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you Artur for this reference. BTW I'm enjoying the recent conversation you have started. If only I could read Polish. All the best, Patrick McCartney PhD Candidate School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney #yogabodyANU2016 symposium http://chl.anu.edu.au/news-events/events/658/yoga-and-body-past-and-present-symposium?#tab - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney * - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJy_Oqnqag8 http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be https://youtu.be/7tAp8m9RHPU On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:11 AM, Artur Karp wrote: > Dear Patrick, > > > S. W. Jamison and M. Witzel *Vedic Hinduism. *In: A. Sharma (ed.), *The > Study of Hinduism*. University of South Carolina Press 2003, 65-113 > [written in 1992/95; *long versio*n: (1992) html > file; *pdf > *] > > It's No 95 in Michael Witzel's List of Publications: > > > http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwbib.htm > > > Best, > > Artur Karp > > > 2016-04-28 1:55 GMT+02:00 patrick mccartney : > >> Hello, >> >> Is anyone able to help me with referencing the following article? >> >> http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/vedica.pdf >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Patrick McCartney >> >> PhD Candidate >> School of Culture, History & Language >> College of the Asia-Pacific >> The Australian National University >> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >> >> >> Skype - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >> Twitter - @psdmccartney >> >> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium >> http://chl.anu.edu.au/news-events/events/658/yoga-and-body-past-and-present-symposium?#tab >> >> >> >> - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney >> * >> - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile >> * >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJy_Oqnqag8 >> >> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g >> >> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be >> >> https://youtu.be/7tAp8m9RHPU >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesan at ifpindia.org Thu Apr 28 05:45:18 2016 From: ganesan at ifpindia.org (Dr. T. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 11:15:18 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5721A36E.9030901@ifpindia.org> Samkara, Vachaspatimisra, etc. all belong to 8th century; whereas my point is Patanjali, Kalidasa are all much earlier to them. As mentioned in the earlier post, beginning from Svetasvataropanishad (which is indisputably one of the earliest Upanishad-s), Kaivalyopanishad, Atharvasikhaa, Atharvasiras, (where the words ISAna, ISa are also used) and in the Amarakosa, also one of the earliest Kosa-s, Ishvara denotes only Siva. Note the Amarakosa passage: ?ambhur_??a?_ pa?upati? ?iva? ??l? mah??vara? . _??vara? _?arva _???na?_ ?a?kara?candra??khara?. The period of BhagavadgItA as we have it now, cannot be so earlier or contemporaneous with Patanjali or Kalidasa. And, definitely BG has been inspired by the Svetasvataropanishad for its stress on Bhakti. Samkara appears to be mostly leaning towards VishNubhakti; it is is very much evident in many of his interpretations and comments in the BhagavadgiitA: at BG II.51, VI.31,Samkara states the liberated state as ?the supreme state of Vishnu? (padam paramam vishnoH); in BG XIII.18, he clearly identifies paramAtmA with VAsudeva. Ganesan On 28-04-2016 05:40, Elliot Stern wrote: > V?caspatimi?ra, generally understood to favor ?iva, acknowledges that > adherents of the P?ta?jalayoga??stram consider Vi??u to be their > ??vara. He says, in concluding his comment > on ?dividv?nnirm??acittamadhi??h?ya k?ru?y?dbhagav?nparamar?ir?sur?ya > jij??sam?n?ya tantra? prov?ca (yogabh??yam to yogas?tram 1.25): > > sa eve?vara ?dividv?nkapilo vi??urna<:> svayambh?riti bh?va?~| > sv?yambhuv?n?? tv??vara iti bh?va?~| > > James Haughton Woods translates this as: [The reply would be that] > this same ??vara, the First Knower, the Self-existent Vishnu [is] > Kapila. "But [He is] the ??vara of those descended from the > Self-existent." This is the point. > Note that V?caspati frequently refers to adherents of the > P?ta?jalayoga??stram as sv?yambhuva? (for example, in ny?yaka?ik?). > > Elliot M. Stern > 552 South 48th Street > Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 > United States of America > telephone: 215-747-6204 > mobile: 267-240-8418 > emstern at verizon.net > >> On 27 Apr 2016, at 05:28, Dr. T. Ganesan > > wrote: >> >> >> >> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell wrote: >>> T/he ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on a >>> more sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as //s?an?kara-pu?janam? >>> in the //?ivayogad?pik?//. /// >> >> My observation on this point is: >> Sankarapuujanam need be taken as 'a sectarian flavour'. For, Isvara >> denotes only Siva as we find in all the Upanishads and other texts; >> Svetasvataropanishad repeats this word denoting Siva many times and >> it can not be interpreted in any other way. >> >> As Kalidasa says in the invocatory verse of his drama, Vikramorvasiyam, >> >> ved?nte?u yam?hurekapuru?a?vy?pya sthita?rodas? / >> >> yasminn??vara ityananyavi?aya??abdo yath?rth?k?ara?/ >> >> >> Isvara denotes only Siva from the early period. Kalidasa is of the >> firm view that the entire Vedanta corpus (ved?nte?u) proclaims Siva >> to be the highest Reality (puru?a) that pervades all the universe. >> Kalidasa and Patanjali definitely belong to very early period. Thus >> by ??v?ra-pra?idh?na it is fully plausible and also possible, that >> Patanjali meant only worship of Siva. And, worshipping a supreme God >> need not be interpreted as ''sectarian''. One cannot ''worship'' a >> supreme reality which is nirguna. >> >> >> Ganesan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 26-04-2016 21:53, Rafal Kleczek wrote: >>> Thank you very much for your observations. I have not been aware of >>> the variations on the concept of yama/niyama in Puranas and later >>> Yogic texts, it is most interesting. >>> The subject of difference in "niyama" regulations for ascetics at >>> different stages in Kau??inya's theory is quite interesting. >>> Kau??inya himself considers it a peculiar trait of the system, or >>> scripture ("tantra"). At the same time, a similar differentiation of >>> niyama rules seems to be accepted by some early Naiy?yikas, who >>> otherwise seem to follow quite closely the theory of Pata?jali (with >>> regard to the practice of Yoga). >>> Even though it seems true, that Ny?ya came under influence of >>> P??upata authors at some point, this idea of differentiation of >>> niyamas is hinted at even in V?tsy?yana's Bh??ya--which was written >>> too early to speak about P??upata influence, I think. Hence the >>> search for other possible sources of this peculiar variation. >>> With best wishes, >>> Rafal >>> >>> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell >> > wrote: >>> >>> Dear Rafal, >>> >>> Later medieval tantric and Ha?hayoga treatises sometimes include >>> both 10 yamas and 10 niyamas. For example, Chapter 25 of the >>> /S?a?rada?//tilakatantra/, the /?ivayogad?pik?/, /Yogayaj??valkya/, >>> and many others ? and here, I imagine, particularly for the >>> ?aiva texts, they might be drawing from the earlier P??upata >>> yoga traditions. >>> >>> As always, across these yoga texts and traditions, there is >>> fluidity and malleability, but they seem to all draw from a >>> shared yama-niyama palette, if you will. The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na >>> of the PY?, for example, often takes on a more sectarian flavor >>> in the later texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? in the >>> /?ivayogad?pik?/. >>> >>> Yet, often the medieval yoga texts appear to explicitly omit >>> them, such as Sv?tm?r?ma?s /Ha?haprad?pik?/ (although a later >>> 10-chapter version of this text does include yamas and niyamas), >>> and thus we are left to speculate on their optionality. Perhaps >>> they were left to be filled in by a guru, or elsewhere from a >>> sectarian tradition, or were in fact left out of yogic praxis >>> entirely (although I doubt this). But I think it?s safe to say >>> if they are included in a prescriptive yoga text, they were not >>> considered optional for that author, but rather par for the >>> course. This is most clear in the PY? and its commentaries, as >>> Prof. Bryant astutely notes, but I think also holds for the >>> later medieval texts as well. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Seth >>> >>> --- >>> >>> *Seth D. Powell* >>> /Doctoral Student/ >>> Committee on the Study of Religion >>> Harvard University >>> >>> /ATG Student Consultant/ >>> Academic Technology Group (ATG) >>> Harvard University Information Technology >>> >>> *p*707 494 4721 >>> *e*sethpowell at g.harvard.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 26, 2016, at 8:02 AM, edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama regulations >>>>> to be >>>>> permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, depending on >>>>> time, place, >>>>> etc.? Is it a common understanding of the division between >>>>> yama and niyama >>>>> among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches of ??aivism? >>>> >>>> I don't recall reading this in any YS commentary. It probably >>>> comes from >>>> the idea that it is after the yama verse that Patanjali >>>> stresses (with >>>> uncharacteristic emphasis, one might add, both in terms of his >>>> own overall >>>> tone, and in terms of the sutra penchant for non-repetition or >>>> redundancy), that they are inviolable (i.e. he chose not to >>>> state this >>>> after the niyama verse which follows the yama verse). However, >>>> 3 of the >>>> niyamas are listed under kriya yoga in the opening verse of >>>> chapter 2, so, >>>> given they are repeated again in the astanga section there is >>>> no sense in >>>> the YS tradition that they are optional. >>>> >>>>> 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama regulations? >>>> >>>> The Bhagavata Purana has 10 yamas. If the Pasupata texts have >>>> 10, I would >>>> probably search the Siva, Skandha or Linga puranas for precedents. >>>> >>>> With best wishes, Edwin Bryant. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 07:52:14 2016 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 09:52:14 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: <5721A36E.9030901@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: V?caspatimi?ra I lived later than the eighth century. He can be dated to around 950 CE (see Diwakar Acharya, *V?caspatimi?ra*?*s Tattvasam?k??**, the Earliest Commentary on Ma??anami?ra?s Brahmasiddhi, *Critically Edited with an Introduction and Critical Notes, Stuttgart: Steiner, 2006 (Nepal Research Centre Publications 25), p. xxviii ). The ?vet??vatara Upani?ad is by no means one of the earliest Upani?ads. Thomas Oberlies dated it to a period between the beginning of the common era and 200 CE, and, in any case, after the Bhagavadg?t?. (Oberlies, Thomas. ?Die ?vet??vatara Upani?ad: Einleitung ? Edition und ?bersetzung von Adhy?ya I.? *Wiener Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde S?dasiens *39 (1995): 61?102, p. 66?67. See also Cohen, Signe. *Text and authority in the older Upani?ads*. Leiden, Boston: Brill, 2008 (Brill?s Indological Library 30 , p. 213?246.) K?lid?sa, who can be approximately dated to 400-450 CE according to Ingalls (see Ingalls,Daniel H. H. ?K?lid?sa and the Attitudes of the Golden Age?. Journal of theAmerican Oriental Society 96.1 (1976): 15?26 , p. 15, n. 1), is clearly later than the Bhagavadg?t? and the ?vet??vatara Upani?ad. He is also slightly later than the P?ta?jalayoga??stra, i.e. the Yoga Sutra together with the so-called Yogabh??ya which can be dated to the end of the fifth c. (see Maas, Philipp Andr?. *Sam?dhip?da. Das erste Kapitel des P?ta?jalayoga??stra zum ersten Mal kritisch ediert, = The First Chapter of the P?ta?jalayoga??stra for the First Time Critically Edited.* Aachen: Shaker, 2006. (Studia Indologica Universitatis Halensis Geisteskultur Indiens. Texte und Studien 9), p. xix. For a general survey of scholarship on yoga philosophy and for arguments concerning the unitary nature of the *P?ta?jalayoga??stra*, you may find also my article ?A Concise Historiographyof Classical Yoga Philosophy?. Periodization and Historiography of IndianPhilosophy. Eli Franco (ed.). Vienna: Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- undBuddhismuskunde, 2013. (Publications of the de Nobili Research Library 37) 53?90 relavant. The question of the religious orientation of Pata?jali is difficult to answer. It appears to me that Pata?jali consciously created a work on spiritual liberation in a Brahmanical religious setting that avoided any obvious sectarian commitment in order to make his work widely acceptable. However, the reference to Kapila as the first teacher of yoga in PY? 1.25 (to which Eliot Stern referred in his mail to the present discussion) may actually indicate that Pata?jali had a Vai??ava background. An additional indication for the same may be the fact that Pata?jali quoted Vi??upur??a 6.6.2 in order to support his exposition of Mantrameditation leading to an awareness of *??vara* in PY? 1.28. Best, Philipp 2016-04-28 7:45 GMT+02:00 Dr. T. Ganesan : > > Samkara, Vachaspatimisra, etc. all belong to 8th century; whereas my point > is Patanjali, Kalidasa are all much earlier to them. As mentioned in the > earlier post, beginning from Svetasvataropanishad (which is indisputably > one of the earliest Upanishad-s), Kaivalyopanishad, Atharvasikhaa, > Atharvasiras, (where the words ISAna, ISa are also used) and in the > Amarakosa, also one of the earliest Kosa-s, Ishvara denotes only Siva. > > Note the Amarakosa passage: > > > ?ambhur*??a?* pa?upati? ?iva? ??l? mah??vara? . > > * ??vara? *?arva *???na?* ?a?kara?candra??khara?. > > > The period of BhagavadgItA as we have it now, cannot be so earlier or > contemporaneous with Patanjali or Kalidasa. And, definitely BG has been > inspired by the Svetasvataropanishad for its stress on Bhakti. > > Samkara appears to be mostly leaning towards VishNubhakti; it is is very > much evident in many of his interpretations and comments in the > BhagavadgiitA: at BG II.51, VI.31, Samkara states the liberated state as ? > the supreme state of Vishnu? (padam paramam vishnoH); in BG XIII.18, he > clearly identifies paramAtmA with VAsudeva. > > > Ganesan > > > > > > > On 28-04-2016 05:40, Elliot Stern wrote: > > V?caspatimi?ra, generally understood to favor ?iva, acknowledges that > adherents of the P?ta?jalayoga??stram consider Vi??u to be their ??vara. He > says, in concluding his comment on ?dividv?nnirm??acittamadhi??h?ya > k?ru?y?dbhagav?nparamar?ir?sur?ya jij??sam?n?ya tantra? prov?ca > (yogabh??yam to yogas?tram 1.25): > > sa eve?vara ?dividv?nkapilo vi??urna<:> svayambh?riti bh?va?~| > sv?yambhuv?n?? tv??vara iti bh?va?~| > > James Haughton Woods translates this as: [The reply would be that] this > same ??vara, the First Knower, the Self-existent Vishnu [is] Kapila. "But > [He is] the ??vara of those descended from the Self-existent." This is the > point. > > Note that V?caspati frequently refers to adherents of the > P?ta?jalayoga??stram as sv?yambhuva? (for example, in ny?yaka?ik?). > > Elliot M. Stern > 552 South 48th Street > Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 > United States of America > telephone: 215-747-6204 > mobile: 267-240-8418 > emstern at verizon.net > > -- Dr. Philipp A. Maas Universit?tsassistent Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Wien ?sterreich univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesan at ifpindia.org Thu Apr 28 10:05:06 2016 From: ganesan at ifpindia.org (Dr. T. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 15:35:06 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5721E052.7090203@ifpindia.org> Svetasvataropanishad is definitely one of the early Upanishads. May be the BhagavadgItA was inspired by this Upanishad. Comparison of the textual style of the Svetasvataropanishad and the BhagavadgItA will make it clearer. Is it possible to show the popularity and textual references of the BhagavadgItA in other literatures and commentaries before Samkara ? Is it possible to hold that it was Samkara who had popularised and propagated the Bhagavadgita by stating that it is the essence of all the Vedanta as he mentions quite a number of times in his commentary ? For, one rarely knows of any textual reference to the Bhagavadgita in the period earlier to Samkara...... Of course, Kalidaqsa is later than the Svetasvataropanishad. As I have been saying in the earlier posts, KAlidAsa and Patanjali definitely belong to a very early period. Unless one accepts the view that both the Yogasutra and the Bhashya are a unified text composed by a single person (which does not appear to be strongly supported by the tradition), one cannot admit "/Pata?jali quoted Vi??upur??a 6.6.2 in order to support his exposition of Mantrameditation leading to an awareness of //??vara//in PY? 1.28. //"/ It is also to be noted that Saivasiddhanta authors such as Sadyojyoti (700-800 CE), and great commentators such as Narayanakantha, Ramakantha, Aghorasiva (spanning from 9-12 centuries CE) do refer only to the Yogasutra-s as the work of Patanjali and not the Bhashya while referring to and refuting some of the doctrines the Patanjala Yoga system. Ganesan On 28-04-2016 13:22, Philipp Maas wrote: > > V?caspatimi?ra I lived later than the eighth century. He can be dated > to around 950 CE (see Diwakar Acharya, /V?caspatimi?ra/?/s > Tattvasam?k??//,the Earliest Commentary on Ma??anami?ra?s > Brahmasiddhi, /Critically Edited with an Introduction and Critical > Notes, Stuttgart: Steiner, 2006 (Nepal Research Centre Publications > 25), p. xxviii > ). > > The ?vet??vatara Upani?ad is by no means one of the earliest > Upani?ads. Thomas Oberlies dated it to a period between the beginning > of the common era and 200 CE, and, in any case, after the > Bhagavadg?t?. (Oberlies, Thomas. ?Die ?vet??vatara Upani?ad: > Einleitung ? Edition und ?bersetzung von Adhy?ya I.? /Wiener > Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde S?dasiens /39 (1995): 61?102, p.66?67. See > also Cohen, Signe. /Text and authority in the older Upani?ads/. > Leiden, > Boston: > Brill, 2008 (Brill?s Indological Library 30 > , > p. 213?246.) > > K?lid?sa, who can be approximately dated to 400-450 CE according to > Ingalls (see Ingalls,Daniel H. H. ?K?lid?sa and the Attitudes of the > Golden Age?. Journal of theAmerican Oriental Society 96.1 (1976): > 15?26 > , p. > 15, n. 1), is clearly later than the Bhagavadg?t? and the ?vet??vatara > Upani?ad. He is also slightly later than the P?ta?jalayoga??stra, i.e. > the Yoga Sutra together with the so-called Yogabh??ya which can be > dated to the end of the fifth c. (see Maas, Philipp Andr?. > /Sam?dhip?da. Das erste Kapitel des P?ta?jalayoga??stra zum ersten Mal > kritisch ediert, = The First Chapter of the P?ta?jalayoga??stra for > the First Time Critically Edited./ Aachen: Shaker, 2006. (Studia > Indologica Universitatis Halensis Geisteskultur Indiens. Texte und > Studien 9), p. xix. For a general survey of scholarship on yoga > philosophy and for arguments concerning the unitary nature of the > /P?ta?jalayoga??stra/, you may find also my article ?A Concise > Historiographyof Classical Yoga Philosophy?. Periodization and > Historiography of IndianPhilosophy. Eli Franco (ed.). Vienna: Institut > f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- undBuddhismuskunde, 2013. (Publications of the > de Nobili Research Library 37) 53?90 > > relavant. > > The question of the religious orientation of Pata?jali is difficult to > answer. It appears to me that Pata?jali consciously created a work on > spiritual liberation in a Brahmanical religious setting that avoided > any obvious sectarian commitment in order to make his work widely > acceptable. However, the reference to Kapila as the first teacher of > yoga in PY? 1.25 (to which Eliot Stern referred in his mail to the > present discussion) may actually indicate that Pata?jali had a > Vai??ava background. An additional indication for the same may be the > fact that Pata?jali quoted Vi??upur??a 6.6.2 in order to support his > exposition of Mantrameditation leading to an awareness of /??vara/ in > PY? 1.28. > > > Best, > > > Philipp > > > > > 2016-04-28 7:45 GMT+02:00 Dr. T. Ganesan >: > > > Samkara, Vachaspatimisra, etc. all belong to 8th century; whereas > my point is Patanjali, Kalidasa are all much earlier to them. As > mentioned in the earlier post, beginning from Svetasvataropanishad > (which is indisputably one of the earliest Upanishad-s), > Kaivalyopanishad, Atharvasikhaa, Atharvasiras, (where the words > ISAna, ISa are also used) and in the Amarakosa, also one of the > earliest Kosa-s, Ishvara denotes only Siva. > > Note the Amarakosa passage: > > ?ambhur_??a?_ pa?upati? ?iva? ??l? mah??vara? . > > _??vara? _?arva _???na?_ ?a?kara?candra??khara?. > > > > The period of BhagavadgItA as we have it now, cannot be so earlier > or contemporaneous with Patanjali or Kalidasa. And, definitely BG > has been inspired by the Svetasvataropanishad for its stress on > Bhakti. > > Samkara appears to be mostly leaning towards VishNubhakti; it is > is very much evident in many of his interpretations and comments > in the BhagavadgiitA: at BG II.51, VI.31,Samkara states the > liberated state as ?the supreme state of Vishnu? (padam paramam > vishnoH); in BG XIII.18, he clearly identifies paramAtmA with > VAsudeva. > > > Ganesan > > > > > > > On 28-04-2016 05:40, Elliot Stern wrote: >> V?caspatimi?ra, generally understood to favor ?iva, acknowledges >> that adherents of the P?ta?jalayoga??stram consider Vi??u to be >> their ??vara. He says, in concluding his comment >> on ?dividv?nnirm??acittamadhi??h?ya >> k?ru?y?dbhagav?nparamar?ir?sur?ya jij??sam?n?ya tantra? prov?ca >> (yogabh??yam to yogas?tram 1.25): >> >> sa eve?vara ?dividv?nkapilo vi??urna<:> svayambh?riti bh?va?~| >> sv?yambhuv?n?? tv??vara iti bh?va?~| >> >> James Haughton Woods translates this as: [The reply would be >> that] this same ??vara, the First Knower, the Self-existent >> Vishnu [is] Kapila. "But [He is] the ??vara of those descended >> from the Self-existent." This is the point. >> Note that V?caspati frequently refers to adherents of the >> P?ta?jalayoga??stram as sv?yambhuva? (for example, in ny?yaka?ik?). >> >> Elliot M. Stern >> 552 South 48th Street >> Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >> United States of America >> telephone: 215-747-6204 >> mobile: 267-240-8418 >> emstern at verizon.net >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 11:13:02 2016 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 13:13:02 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: <5721E052.7090203@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: Dear Ganesan, According to my research, the view that the Yogasutra and the Bhashya are a unified text composed by a single person is much better supported by multiple sources than the view of a separate authorship. However, I am not married to this hypothesis and would be very willing to accept the opposite view in the light of new evidence. Therefore I am very much interested in any source that clearly states a different authorship of the Yogasutra and the Bhashya before the Sarvadar?anasa?graha. So far I have only found self-contradictory references to the PY? by V?caspatimi?ra I and the account of V?dir?ja S?ri (in his commentary on Akala?ka?s Ny?yavini?caya from around 1025 CE), stating that a *bh??ya* on Pata?jali?s s?tra was composed by the S??khya teacher Vindhyav?sin (see *Ny?ya Vini?caya Vivara?am of ?r? V?dir?ja S?ri the Commentary on Bha???kala?kadeva?s Ny?ya Vini?caya.* Vol 1. Pratyak?a Prast?va. Ed. with introd., appendices, variant readings, comparative notes etc. by Mahendra Kum?r Jain. Kashi: Bh?rat?ya J??nap??ha, 1940, p. 231, l. 6?10). I would be therefore very thankful for any additional substantial reference (preferably by mentioning the page and line of a printed book) that you (or any of our colleagues) could provide and that may contribute to solving the authorship question of the PY?. Best, Philipp 2016-04-28 12:05 GMT+02:00 Dr. T. Ganesan : > Svetasvataropanishad is definitely one of the early Upanishads. May be the > BhagavadgItA was inspired by this Upanishad. Comparison of the textual > style of the Svetasvataropanishad and the BhagavadgItA will make it clearer. > > Is it possible to show the popularity and textual references of the > BhagavadgItA in other literatures and commentaries before Samkara ? > Is it possible to hold that it was Samkara who had popularised and > propagated the Bhagavadgita by stating that it is the essence of all the > Vedanta as he mentions quite a number of times in his commentary ? For, one > rarely knows of any textual reference to the Bhagavadgita in the period > earlier to Samkara...... > > > Of course, Kalidaqsa is later than the Svetasvataropanishad. As I have > been saying in the earlier posts, KAlidAsa and Patanjali definitely belong > to a very early period. > > > Unless one accepts the view that both the Yogasutra and the Bhashya are a > unified text composed by a single person (which does not appear to be > strongly supported by the tradition), one cannot admit " *Pata?jali > quoted Vi??upur??a 6.6.2 in order to support his exposition of > Mantrameditation leading to an awareness of **??vara** in PY? 1.28. **"* > > It is also to be noted that Saivasiddhanta authors such as Sadyojyoti > (700-800 CE), and great commentators such as Narayanakantha, Ramakantha, > Aghorasiva (spanning from 9-12 centuries CE) do refer only to the > Yogasutra-s as the work of Patanjali and not the Bhashya > while referring to and refuting some of the doctrines the Patanjala Yoga > system. > > > Ganesan > > On 28-04-2016 13:22, Philipp Maas wrote: > > V?caspatimi?ra I lived later than the eighth century. He can be dated to > around 950 CE (see Diwakar Acharya, *V?caspatimi?ra*?*s Tattvasam?k??**, > the Earliest Commentary on Ma??anami?ra?s Brahmasiddhi, *Critically > Edited with an Introduction and Critical Notes, Stuttgart: Steiner, 2006 > (Nepal Research Centre Publications 25), p. xxviii > > ). > > > > The ?vet??vatara Upani?ad is by no means one of the earliest Upani?ads. > Thomas Oberlies dated it to a period between the beginning of the common > era and 200 CE, and, in any case, after the Bhagavadg?t?. (Oberlies, > Thomas. ?Die ?vet??vatara Upani?ad: Einleitung ? Edition und ?bersetzung > von Adhy?ya I.? *Wiener Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde S?dasiens *39 (1995): > 61?102, p. 66?67. See also Cohen, Signe. *Text and authority in the older > Upani?ads*. Leiden, > > Boston: Brill, 2008 (Brill?s Indological Library 30 > , > p. 213?246.) > > > > K?lid?sa, who can be approximately dated to 400-450 CE according to > Ingalls (see Ingalls,Daniel H. H. ?K?lid?sa and the Attitudes of the > Golden Age?. Journal of theAmerican Oriental Society 96.1 (1976): 15?26 > , p. 15, > n. 1), is clearly later than the Bhagavadg?t? and the ?vet??vatara > Upani?ad. He is also slightly later than the P?ta?jalayoga??stra, i.e. the > Yoga Sutra together with the so-called Yogabh??ya which can be dated to the > end of the fifth c. (see Maas, Philipp Andr?. *Sam?dhip?da. Das erste > Kapitel des P?ta?jalayoga??stra zum ersten Mal kritisch ediert, = The First > Chapter of the P?ta?jalayoga??stra for the First Time Critically Edited.* > Aachen: Shaker, 2006. (Studia Indologica Universitatis Halensis > Geisteskultur Indiens. Texte und Studien 9), p. xix. For a general survey > of scholarship on yoga philosophy and for arguments concerning the unitary > nature of the *P?ta?jalayoga??stra*, you may find also my article ?A > Concise Historiographyof Classical Yoga Philosophy?. Periodization and > Historiography of IndianPhilosophy. Eli Franco (ed.). Vienna: Institut f?r > S?dasien-, Tibet- undBuddhismuskunde, 2013. (Publications of the de Nobili > Research Library 37) 53?90 > > relavant. > > > > The question of the religious orientation of Pata?jali is difficult to > answer. It appears to me that Pata?jali consciously created a work on > spiritual liberation in a Brahmanical religious setting that avoided any > obvious sectarian commitment in order to make his work widely acceptable. > However, the reference to Kapila as the first teacher of yoga in PY? 1.25 > (to which Eliot Stern referred in his mail to the present discussion) may > actually indicate that Pata?jali had a Vai??ava background. An additional > indication for the same may be the fact that Pata?jali quoted Vi??upur??a > 6.6.2 in order to support his exposition of Mantrameditation leading to an > awareness of *??vara* in PY? 1.28. > > > Best, > > > Philipp > > > > > 2016-04-28 7:45 GMT+02:00 Dr. T. Ganesan : > >> >> Samkara, Vachaspatimisra, etc. all belong to 8th century; whereas my >> point is Patanjali, Kalidasa are all much earlier to them. As mentioned in >> the earlier post, beginning from Svetasvataropanishad (which is >> indisputably one of the earliest Upanishad-s), Kaivalyopanishad, >> Atharvasikhaa, Atharvasiras, (where the words ISAna, ISa are also used) and >> in the Amarakosa, also one of the earliest Kosa-s, Ishvara denotes only >> Siva. >> >> Note the Amarakosa passage: >> >> >> ?ambhur*??a?* pa?upati? ?iva? ??l? mah??vara? . >> >> * ??vara? *?arva *???na?* ?a?kara?candra??khara?. >> >> >> The period of BhagavadgItA as we have it now, cannot be so earlier or >> contemporaneous with Patanjali or Kalidasa. And, definitely BG has been >> inspired by the Svetasvataropanishad for its stress on Bhakti. >> >> Samkara appears to be mostly leaning towards VishNubhakti; it is is very >> much evident in many of his interpretations and comments in the >> BhagavadgiitA: at BG II.51, VI.31, Samkara states the liberated state as >> ? the supreme state of Vishnu? (padam paramam vishnoH); in BG XIII.18, >> he clearly identifies paramAtmA with VAsudeva. >> >> >> Ganesan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 28-04-2016 05:40, Elliot Stern wrote: >> >> V?caspatimi?ra, generally understood to favor ?iva, acknowledges that >> adherents of the P?ta?jalayoga??stram consider Vi??u to be their ??vara. He >> says, in concluding his comment on ?dividv?nnirm??acittamadhi??h?ya >> k?ru?y?dbhagav?nparamar?ir?sur?ya jij??sam?n?ya tantra? prov?ca >> (yogabh??yam to yogas?tram 1.25): >> >> sa eve?vara ?dividv?nkapilo vi??urna<:> svayambh?riti bh?va?~| >> sv?yambhuv?n?? tv??vara iti bh?va?~| >> >> James Haughton Woods translates this as: [The reply would be that] this >> same ??vara, the First Knower, the Self-existent Vishnu [is] Kapila. "But >> [He is] the ??vara of those descended from the Self-existent." This is the >> point. >> >> Note that V?caspati frequently refers to adherents of the >> P?ta?jalayoga??stram as sv?yambhuva? (for example, in ny?yaka?ik?). >> >> Elliot M. Stern >> 552 South 48th Street >> Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >> United States of America >> telephone: 215-747-6204 >> mobile: 267-240-8418 >> emstern at verizon.net >> >> > > -- Dr. Philipp A. Maas Universit?tsassistent Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Wien ?sterreich univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uskokov at uchicago.edu Thu Apr 28 13:16:03 2016 From: uskokov at uchicago.edu (Aleksandar Uskokov) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 08:16:03 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: <5721A36E.9030901@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: Dear Ganesan, As for the popularity of the Gita before Sankara, he himself in his introduction to the commentary says that the work has been explained many times before him, word by word and sentence by sentence. See also Nakamura's "A History of Early Vedanta Philosophy," Vol. 2. Aleksandar On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:45 AM, Dr. T. Ganesan wrote: > > Samkara, Vachaspatimisra, etc. all belong to 8th century; whereas my point > is Patanjali, Kalidasa are all much earlier to them. As mentioned in the > earlier post, beginning from Svetasvataropanishad (which is indisputably > one of the earliest Upanishad-s), Kaivalyopanishad, Atharvasikhaa, > Atharvasiras, (where the words ISAna, ISa are also used) and in the > Amarakosa, also one of the earliest Kosa-s, Ishvara denotes only Siva. > > Note the Amarakosa passage: > > > ?ambhur*??a?* pa?upati? ?iva? ??l? mah??vara? . > > * ??vara? *?arva *???na?* ?a?kara?candra??khara?. > > > The period of BhagavadgItA as we have it now, cannot be so earlier or > contemporaneous with Patanjali or Kalidasa. And, definitely BG has been > inspired by the Svetasvataropanishad for its stress on Bhakti. > > Samkara appears to be mostly leaning towards VishNubhakti; it is is very > much evident in many of his interpretations and comments in the > BhagavadgiitA: at BG II.51, VI.31, Samkara states the liberated state as ? > the supreme state of Vishnu? (padam paramam vishnoH); in BG XIII.18, he > clearly identifies paramAtmA with VAsudeva. > > > Ganesan > > > > > > > On 28-04-2016 05:40, Elliot Stern wrote: > > V?caspatimi?ra, generally understood to favor ?iva, acknowledges that > adherents of the P?ta?jalayoga??stram consider Vi??u to be their ??vara. He > says, in concluding his comment on ?dividv?nnirm??acittamadhi??h?ya > k?ru?y?dbhagav?nparamar?ir?sur?ya jij??sam?n?ya tantra? prov?ca > (yogabh??yam to yogas?tram 1.25): > > sa eve?vara ?dividv?nkapilo vi??urna<:> svayambh?riti bh?va?~| > sv?yambhuv?n?? tv??vara iti bh?va?~| > > James Haughton Woods translates this as: [The reply would be that] this > same ??vara, the First Knower, the Self-existent Vishnu [is] Kapila. "But > [He is] the ??vara of those descended from the Self-existent." This is the > point. > > Note that V?caspati frequently refers to adherents of the > P?ta?jalayoga??stram as sv?yambhuva? (for example, in ny?yaka?ik?). > > Elliot M. Stern > 552 South 48th Street > Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 > United States of America > telephone: 215-747-6204 > mobile: 267-240-8418 > emstern at verizon.net > > On 27 Apr 2016, at 05:28, Dr. T. Ganesan < > ganesan at ifpindia.org> wrote: > > > > On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell wrote: > > T*he ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on a more > sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as **s?an?kara-pu?janam? in > the **?ivayogad?pik?**. * > > > My observation on this point is: > Sankarapuujanam need be taken as 'a sectarian flavour'. For, Isvara > denotes only Siva as we find in all the Upanishads and other texts; > Svetasvataropanishad repeats this word denoting Siva many times and it can > not be interpreted in any other way. > > As Kalidasa says in the invocatory verse of his drama, Vikramorvasiyam, > > ved?nte?u yam?hurekapuru?a? vy?pya sthita? rodas? / > > yasminn??vara ityananyavi?aya? ?abdo yath?rth?k?ara? / > > Isvara denotes only Siva from the early period. Kalidasa is of the firm > view that the entire Vedanta corpus (ved?nte?u) proclaims Siva to be the > highest Reality (puru?a) that pervades all the universe. Kalidasa and > Patanjali definitely belong to very early period. Thus by > ??v?ra-pra?idh?na it is fully plausible and also possible, that > Patanjali meant only worship of Siva. And, worshipping a supreme God need > not be interpreted as ''sectarian''. One cannot ''worship'' a supreme > reality which is nirguna. > > > Ganesan > > > > > > On 26-04-2016 21:53, Rafal Kleczek wrote: > > Thank you very much for your observations. I have not been aware of the > variations on the concept of yama/niyama in Puranas and later Yogic texts, > it is most interesting. > The subject of difference in "niyama" regulations for ascetics at > different stages in Kau??inya's theory is quite interesting. Kau??inya > himself considers it a peculiar trait of the system, or scripture > ("tantra"). At the same time, a similar differentiation of niyama rules > seems to be accepted by some early Naiy?yikas, who otherwise seem to follow > quite closely the theory of Pata?jali (with regard to the practice of Yoga). > Even though it seems true, that Ny?ya came under influence of P??upata > authors at some point, this idea of differentiation of niyamas is hinted at > even in V?tsy?yana's Bh??ya--which was written too early to speak about > P??upata influence, I think. Hence the search for other possible sources of > this peculiar variation. > With best wishes, > Rafal > > On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell < > sethpowell at g.harvard.edu> wrote: > >> Dear Rafal, >> >> Later medieval tantric and Ha?hayoga treatises sometimes include both 10 >> yamas and 10 niyamas. For example, Chapter 25 of the *S?a?rada?* >> *tilakatantra*, the *?ivayogad?pik?*, *Yogayaj??valkya*, and many >> others ? and here, I imagine, particularly for the ?aiva texts, they might >> be drawing from the earlier P??upata yoga traditions. >> >> As always, across these yoga texts and traditions, there is fluidity and >> malleability, but they seem to all draw from a shared yama-niyama palette, >> if you will. The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on >> a more sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? >> in the *?ivayogad?pik?*. >> >> Yet, often the medieval yoga texts appear to explicitly omit them, such >> as Sv?tm?r?ma?s *Ha?haprad?pik?* (although a later 10-chapter version of >> this text does include yamas and niyamas), and thus we are left to >> speculate on their optionality. Perhaps they were left to be filled in by a >> guru, or elsewhere from a sectarian tradition, or were in fact left out of >> yogic praxis entirely (although I doubt this). But I think it?s safe to say >> if they are included in a prescriptive yoga text, they were not considered >> optional for that author, but rather par for the course. This is most clear >> in the PY? and its commentaries, as Prof. Bryant astutely notes, but I >> think also holds for the later medieval texts as well. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Seth >> >> --- >> >> *Seth D. Powell* >> *Doctoral Student* >> Committee on the Study of Religion >> Harvard University >> >> *ATG Student Consultant* >> Academic Technology Group (ATG) >> Harvard University Information Technology >> >> *p* 707 494 4721 >> *e* sethpowell at g.harvard.edu >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 26, 2016, at 8:02 AM, edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu wrote: >> >> >> 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama regulations to be >> permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, depending on time, place, >> etc.? Is it a common understanding of the division between yama and niyama >> among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches of ??aivism? >> >> >> I don't recall reading this in any YS commentary. It probably comes from >> the idea that it is after the yama verse that Patanjali stresses (with >> uncharacteristic emphasis, one might add, both in terms of his own overall >> tone, and in terms of the sutra penchant for non-repetition or >> redundancy), that they are inviolable (i.e. he chose not to state this >> after the niyama verse which follows the yama verse). However, 3 of the >> niyamas are listed under kriya yoga in the opening verse of chapter 2, so, >> given they are repeated again in the astanga section there is no sense in >> the YS tradition that they are optional. >> >> 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama regulations? >> >> >> The Bhagavata Purana has 10 yamas. If the Pasupata texts have 10, I would >> probably search the Siva, Skandha or Linga puranas for precedents. >> >> With best wishes, Edwin Bryant. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 15:19:34 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 20:49:34 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 1. When we bring Vishnu into this discussion, we need to clarify whether we are talking about the Vedic concepts such as Narayana and Vishnu as distinct from the Puranic Vishnu/ Narayana , with attributes such as the vaikunThavAsa etc. 2. The Upanishadic concept of Is'vara , like the one with identical name in nyAya and other dars'anas is not a deity neither Vedic nor Puranic but a doctrinal category. Since, unlike in the case of the other dars'anas, in Upanishads, there is a scope for vEdArtha upabrmhaNa link with Puranas or Veda-Vedanta relation with the Vedas , the Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is open to the discussion of whether that can be viewed as Shiva of the Puranas or Vishnu of the Vedas or Narayana of the Vedas or Vishnu / Narayana of the Puranas. 3. In common parlance and in many textual usages too the word Is'vara being taken as a synonym of Shiva is in abundance. But those can not be mixed with the discussion of what the Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is equivalent to in among the Vedic or Puranic deities. 4. The Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is discussed as a part of a group of doctrinal categories consisting of Brahman, Is'vara and Jiva. 5. At a certain level, Brahman and Is'vara are both equated with the supreme deity of each of the pAramyavAda traditions, i.e., with Shiva in Shaivism and with Vishnu in Vaishnavism. At another level, the distinction between Brahman and Is'vara is taken into account and which form of Vishnu (in Vaishnavism) or Shiva (in Shaivism) is to be taken as Brahman and which form of Vishnu (in Vaishnavism) or Shiva (in Shaivism) is to be taken as Is'vara is discussed. 6. Dr Ganesan is clearly taking a Shaivite position by saying that the Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is to be taken as Shiva and any argument saying that the Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is to be taken as Vishnu could look to be Vaishnavite to him. I don't think you are trying to take a Vaishnavite position here, are you? On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov wrote: > Dear Ganesan, > > As for the popularity of the Gita before Sankara, he himself in his > introduction to the commentary says that the work has been explained many > times before him, word by word and sentence by sentence. See also > Nakamura's "A History of Early Vedanta Philosophy," Vol. 2. > > Aleksandar > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:45 AM, Dr. T. Ganesan > wrote: > >> >> Samkara, Vachaspatimisra, etc. all belong to 8th century; whereas my >> point is Patanjali, Kalidasa are all much earlier to them. As mentioned in >> the earlier post, beginning from Svetasvataropanishad (which is >> indisputably one of the earliest Upanishad-s), Kaivalyopanishad, >> Atharvasikhaa, Atharvasiras, (where the words ISAna, ISa are also used) and >> in the Amarakosa, also one of the earliest Kosa-s, Ishvara denotes only >> Siva. >> >> Note the Amarakosa passage: >> >> >> ?ambhur*??a?* pa?upati? ?iva? ??l? mah??vara? . >> >> * ??vara? *?arva *???na?* ?a?kara?candra??khara?. >> >> >> The period of BhagavadgItA as we have it now, cannot be so earlier or >> contemporaneous with Patanjali or Kalidasa. And, definitely BG has been >> inspired by the Svetasvataropanishad for its stress on Bhakti. >> >> Samkara appears to be mostly leaning towards VishNubhakti; it is is very >> much evident in many of his interpretations and comments in the >> BhagavadgiitA: at BG II.51, VI.31, Samkara states the liberated state as >> ? the supreme state of Vishnu? (padam paramam vishnoH); in BG XIII.18, >> he clearly identifies paramAtmA with VAsudeva. >> >> >> Ganesan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 28-04-2016 05:40, Elliot Stern wrote: >> >> V?caspatimi?ra, generally understood to favor ?iva, acknowledges that >> adherents of the P?ta?jalayoga??stram consider Vi??u to be their ??vara. He >> says, in concluding his comment on ?dividv?nnirm??acittamadhi??h?ya >> k?ru?y?dbhagav?nparamar?ir?sur?ya jij??sam?n?ya tantra? prov?ca >> (yogabh??yam to yogas?tram 1.25): >> >> sa eve?vara ?dividv?nkapilo vi??urna<:> svayambh?riti bh?va?~| >> sv?yambhuv?n?? tv??vara iti bh?va?~| >> >> James Haughton Woods translates this as: [The reply would be that] this >> same ??vara, the First Knower, the Self-existent Vishnu [is] Kapila. "But >> [He is] the ??vara of those descended from the Self-existent." This is the >> point. >> >> Note that V?caspati frequently refers to adherents of the >> P?ta?jalayoga??stram as sv?yambhuva? (for example, in ny?yaka?ik?). >> >> Elliot M. Stern >> 552 South 48th Street >> Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >> United States of America >> telephone: 215-747-6204 >> mobile: 267-240-8418 >> emstern at verizon.net >> >> On 27 Apr 2016, at 05:28, Dr. T. Ganesan < >> ganesan at ifpindia.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell wrote: >> >> T*he ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on a more >> sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as **s?an?kara-pu?janam? in >> the **?ivayogad?pik?**. * >> >> >> My observation on this point is: >> Sankarapuujanam need be taken as 'a sectarian flavour'. For, Isvara >> denotes only Siva as we find in all the Upanishads and other texts; >> Svetasvataropanishad repeats this word denoting Siva many times and it can >> not be interpreted in any other way. >> >> As Kalidasa says in the invocatory verse of his drama, Vikramorvasiyam, >> >> ved?nte?u yam?hurekapuru?a? vy?pya sthita? rodas? / >> >> yasminn??vara ityananyavi?aya? ?abdo yath?rth?k?ara? / >> >> Isvara denotes only Siva from the early period. Kalidasa is of the firm >> view that the entire Vedanta corpus (ved?nte?u) proclaims Siva to be the >> highest Reality (puru?a) that pervades all the universe. Kalidasa and >> Patanjali definitely belong to very early period. Thus by >> ??v?ra-pra?idh?na it is fully plausible and also possible, that >> Patanjali meant only worship of Siva. And, worshipping a supreme God need >> not be interpreted as ''sectarian''. One cannot ''worship'' a supreme >> reality which is nirguna. >> >> >> Ganesan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 26-04-2016 21:53, Rafal Kleczek wrote: >> >> Thank you very much for your observations. I have not been aware of the >> variations on the concept of yama/niyama in Puranas and later Yogic texts, >> it is most interesting. >> The subject of difference in "niyama" regulations for ascetics at >> different stages in Kau??inya's theory is quite interesting. Kau??inya >> himself considers it a peculiar trait of the system, or scripture >> ("tantra"). At the same time, a similar differentiation of niyama rules >> seems to be accepted by some early Naiy?yikas, who otherwise seem to follow >> quite closely the theory of Pata?jali (with regard to the practice of Yoga). >> Even though it seems true, that Ny?ya came under influence of P??upata >> authors at some point, this idea of differentiation of niyamas is hinted at >> even in V?tsy?yana's Bh??ya--which was written too early to speak about >> P??upata influence, I think. Hence the search for other possible sources of >> this peculiar variation. >> With best wishes, >> Rafal >> >> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell < >> sethpowell at g.harvard.edu> wrote: >> >>> Dear Rafal, >>> >>> Later medieval tantric and Ha?hayoga treatises sometimes include both >>> 10 yamas and 10 niyamas. For example, Chapter 25 of the *S?a?rada?* >>> *tilakatantra*, the *?ivayogad?pik?*, *Yogayaj??valkya*, and many >>> others ? and here, I imagine, particularly for the ?aiva texts, they might >>> be drawing from the earlier P??upata yoga traditions. >>> >>> As always, across these yoga texts and traditions, there is fluidity and >>> malleability, but they seem to all draw from a shared yama-niyama palette, >>> if you will. The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on >>> a more sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? >>> in the *?ivayogad?pik?*. >>> >>> Yet, often the medieval yoga texts appear to explicitly omit them, such >>> as Sv?tm?r?ma?s *Ha?haprad?pik?* (although a later 10-chapter version >>> of this text does include yamas and niyamas), and thus we are left to >>> speculate on their optionality. Perhaps they were left to be filled in by a >>> guru, or elsewhere from a sectarian tradition, or were in fact left out of >>> yogic praxis entirely (although I doubt this). But I think it?s safe to say >>> if they are included in a prescriptive yoga text, they were not considered >>> optional for that author, but rather par for the course. This is most clear >>> in the PY? and its commentaries, as Prof. Bryant astutely notes, but I >>> think also holds for the later medieval texts as well. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Seth >>> >>> --- >>> >>> *Seth D. Powell* >>> *Doctoral Student* >>> Committee on the Study of Religion >>> Harvard University >>> >>> *ATG Student Consultant* >>> Academic Technology Group (ATG) >>> Harvard University Information Technology >>> >>> *p* 707 494 4721 >>> *e* sethpowell at g.harvard.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 26, 2016, at 8:02 AM, edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu wrote: >>> >>> >>> 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama regulations to be >>> permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, depending on time, place, >>> etc.? Is it a common understanding of the division between yama and >>> niyama >>> among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches of ??aivism? >>> >>> >>> I don't recall reading this in any YS commentary. It probably comes from >>> the idea that it is after the yama verse that Patanjali stresses (with >>> uncharacteristic emphasis, one might add, both in terms of his own >>> overall >>> tone, and in terms of the sutra penchant for non-repetition or >>> redundancy), that they are inviolable (i.e. he chose not to state this >>> after the niyama verse which follows the yama verse). However, 3 of the >>> niyamas are listed under kriya yoga in the opening verse of chapter 2, >>> so, >>> given they are repeated again in the astanga section there is no sense in >>> the YS tradition that they are optional. >>> >>> 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama regulations? >>> >>> >>> The Bhagavata Purana has 10 yamas. If the Pasupata texts have 10, I >>> would >>> probably search the Siva, Skandha or Linga puranas for precedents. >>> >>> With best wishes, Edwin Bryant. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Thu Apr 28 15:29:44 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 17:29:44 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: <57221E4D.6000800@g.harvard.edu> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Justin Fifield Date: 2016-04-28 16:29 GMT+02:00 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata To: Artur Karp Dear Dr. Karp, I attempted to post this message to Indology last night in response to your query, but I don't think it worked. Please find it reproduced below. Best wishes to you, Justin Fifield Visiting Instructor in Religion Kalamazoo College ------- Dear Colleagues, Fascinating conversation. It reminds me of a story in the Mah?vastu (Jones' translation attached) on a similar theme: the triumph of hospitality over miserliness with food. In this case the brahman (named Kau?ika) is the Buddha in a past life, but the situation is the same. Similar too is the fact that the guests are merely the gods testing the brahman's virtue. A series of guests (gods in disguise) come to Kau?ika to ask for food, but Kau?ika replies each time: n?ha? kri??mi n?pi vikri??mi na c?pi me sannidhi asti ki?cit* / par?ttar?pa? mama bhojana? ima? sy?m?kaprastha? nalam e?o duvinna? // (Senart, 2.49) "I neither buy nor yet do I sell. I have no store of food at all. The food I have is scanty; 'tis but a small measure of grain and not enough for two." (Jones, 2.47) And the recurring response of the guest is (in part): natv?ha? kau?ika br?mi bhu?j?hi ca dad?hi ca / ?ryam?rgasam?panno ek???a? vindate sukha? // (Senart, 2.50) "I tell you, Kau?ika, to eat only after sharing. Thus will you enter on the noble path. He finds no happiness who lives for himself." (Jones, 2.47) Eventually, when the gods reveal themselves, Kau?ika is "converted" to this dharma, expressed thus: e?o adyaiva? kari?y?mi pu?ya? d?sy?mi d?na? ?rama?abr?hma?e?u / etehi dady?d aham annap?na? n?ha? adattv? am?ta? pi p?sye // eva? ca me dadato sarvak?la? bhog? ca me ca sarv? k?ipihanti / tato aha? sugati? pravraji?ya? prah?ya k?m?ni tath?dhik?ni // (Senart, 2.53) "Now this very day I shall begin to live a life of virtue and make gifts to br?hmans and recluses. I shall give them meat and drink. I would not even drink ambrosia without first sharing it. "As I thus give at all times, all my wealth will soon be spent. Hence I shall pass to a state of bliss, having cast away these inordinate desires of mine." (Jones, 2.50) Food for thought.... Best wishes, Justin Fifield Visiting Instructor in Religion Kalamazoo College On 4/26/2016 5:18 AM, Artur Karp wrote: Dear Nagaraj, Motive and method. motive: atithi-seva ---> if selfless, ultimate Liberation; method: bubhukSAjaya (bubhukSA with its load of feelings/emotions - put in there in the process of its formation as a *desiderative* derivate) Would *THAT* make sense? Artur 2016-04-26 10:42 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi : > >The question is: *how *do you keep your hunger under control? > > --- Sri Nityanandji has already said: > > Therefore, to me the essence of ?conquering hunger? in this context is not > abstention from food even when the body is hungry, rather it refers to the > Br?hma?a family's [one-time] act of upholding atithi-dharma and feeding a > hungry guest even though the family was itself hungry. The host Br?hma?a > and his family conquered their own hunger to satisfy the hunger of a guest. > > So > *how *do you keep your hunger under control? > > -- by prioritizing some other motive /drive than hunger, hunger gets > automatically controlled. > > A student skipping his meal on account of being absorbed in his > book-reading in the library, a scientist not feeling his hunger on account > of his immersion in his experiment in the laboratory can be said to have > bubukShaajaya. > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Artur Karp < > karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote: > >> Dear Nagaraj, >> >> >> >> It means *one who keeps one's hunger under one's control* . >> >> The question is: *how *do you keep your hunger under control? >> >> To my mind (basing on my certainly simplistic concept of my own mental >> processes) - by taking control of, by overcoming the emotions/feelings >> generated by the sensation of hunger, that is - the physiological need to >> eat food. >> >> And these emotions/feelings are - not necessarily distinctly - expressed >> by the poet's choice of a desiderative derivate form. >> >> ---------------------------------------------- >> >> Greg O'Toole said somewhere: "What is necessary is that the terms and >> other variables in a conversation be clarified and agreed on by *all >> participants in this conversation*." >> >> Extending my sincere gratitude to all participants in *this here* >> conversation. Learning has no end. >> >> Artur Karp >> >> Warszawa >> Polska >> >> 2016-04-26 8:59 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi < >> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>: >> >>> bubhuk??? jayate yas tu sa svarga? jayate dhruvam >>> >>> bubhuk??? jayate yas tu does not mean one who loses hunger or one who >>> can stay without being hungry. It means one who keeps one's hunger under >>> one's control . >>> >>> k?udh? nir?udati praj??? dharmy?? buddhi? vyapohati >>> >>> >>> means uncontrolled hunger destroys one's wisdom and drives off one's >>> righteous understanding. >>> >>> Issue is bubhukShaajaya and not bubhukShaateevrataa or >>> bubhukShaasaumyataa. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Artur Karp < >>> karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote: >>> >>>> Masterly exposition. >>>> >>>> But (I already used this twice, sorry), there is always a but lurking >>>> there, somewhere behind the screens. >>>> >>>> How do you measure 'desire'? >>>> >>>> To my uneducated (no Amarako?a in the list of necessary readings) mind >>>> the desiderative form itself guarantees the connection between the >>>> word and the idea of desire. >>>> >>>> 'lips?' - ?labdhum *icch?*? is self-explanatory. >>>> >>>> How intense the desire is - it's all a matter of context. >>>> >>>> Let me guess: in certain contexts 'lips?' could be used to describe a >>>> momentary, inconsequential wish, to obtain something without explicit >>>> effort ; in other contexts, perhaps, the wish to obtain something of >>>> lasting value, the act itself coldly planned for. >>>> >>>> Same for ?bubhuk??? - intensity of the desire depends on the context. >>>> >>>> Who *bubhuk??? jayate* - that person overcomes the feelings, the >>>> emotions that are linked with enjoyment of food. In our example - quite >>>> strong emotions, considering "the season of great difficulty". >>>> >>>> "The choice of food metaphor in the context of bliss hails from a >>>> tradition going back to Upani?ads, where the experience of bliss was >>>> linked with enjoyment of food" [V. Aklujkar, *Sharing the Divine Feast*, >>>> in: R.S. Khare (ed.), *The Eternal Food: Gastronomic Ideas and >>>> Experience of Hindus and Buddhists*, 1992, p. 99] >>>> >>>> The epic story tellers do not want their heroes to be perfect, and go >>>> around trying to do things in the "grammatick" way; they supply them with >>>> words - to use as they see fit, not always properly; their heroes act, they >>>> are full of, more often than not, only dimly felt emotions, and they act on >>>> them, and are known to commit mistakes. >>>> >>>> And that is why we like them, and want to hear more about them, again >>>> and again >>>> >>>> Let them have their emotions. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Artur >>>> >>>> 2016-04-26 3:37 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra < >>>> nmisra at gmail.com>: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 25 April 2016 at 18:58, Howard Resnick <
hr at ivs.edu> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The desiderative at times is used to indicate strong desire. Example: >>>>>> desiderative forms of labh ? lipsu, lipsA. In MW, this can mean the simple >>>>>> desire to gain or obtain, or ?longing for?. To long ? to have ?a strong >>>>>> wish or desire.? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Howard >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Monier Williams has errors. An example is meaning of the gav? as an >>>>> ?independent word? for speech and the citation of ?i?up?lavadha 2-68 which >>>>> is incorrect. In this case (?lips??) there is no precise citation also. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The etymology (yoga) of ?lips?? (?labdhum icch??, labh + san + a + ??p) >>>>> does not suggest any intensity in the desire. If one wants to go for usage >>>>> (r??hi), it is better to cross-check with Sanskrit Ko?a-s and >>>>> attested usages than take M-W for granted. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As per Amarako?a (1-7-27,28), there is a clear distinction between >>>>> ?lips?? which is listed with words for desire, and ?l?las?? which is >>>>> explained as intense desire or longing (grammar would confirm this): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ???????????????????????. dohadam >>>>> >>>>> icch? k??k?? sp?heh? t??v??ch? lips? manoratha? >>>>> >>>>> k?mo?bhil??astar?a?ca *so?tyartha? l?las? dvayo?* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The Vy?khy?sudh? on above verses explains that the first twelve are >>>>> synonyms of ?icch?? (and also ) and the word ?l?las?? is a synonym of >>>>> ?atipr?ti? >>>>> >>>>> If any other authentic Ko?a or commentary on a K?vya usage confirms >>>>> that ?longing? or ?intense desire? is also a meaning of ?lips??, M-W can be >>>>> accepted. Same for ?bubhuk???. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Manjari_Jataka_from_Mahavastu_Jones_Trans.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 899912 bytes Desc: not available URL: From uskokov at uchicago.edu Thu Apr 28 15:40:12 2016 From: uskokov at uchicago.edu (Aleksandar Uskokov) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 10:40:12 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nagaraj, No, nothing of that kind. I was just taking exception with the identification Isvara = Siva in the Svetasvatara = in all Upanisads = in Kalidasa = ergo in Patanjali as his contemporary. The idea of Isvara, as your points well illustrate, is too rich for such a simple identification. Best Aleksandar On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > 1. When we bring Vishnu into this discussion, we need to clarify whether > we are talking about the Vedic concepts such as Narayana and Vishnu as > distinct from the Puranic Vishnu/ Narayana , with attributes such as the > vaikunThavAsa etc. > > 2. The Upanishadic concept of Is'vara , like the one with identical name > in nyAya and other dars'anas is not a deity neither Vedic nor Puranic but a > doctrinal category. Since, unlike in the case of the other dars'anas, in > Upanishads, there is a scope for vEdArtha upabrmhaNa link with Puranas > or Veda-Vedanta relation with the Vedas , the Upanishadic doctrinal > category of Is'vara is open to the discussion of whether that can be viewed > as Shiva of the Puranas or Vishnu of the Vedas or Narayana of the Vedas or > Vishnu / Narayana of the Puranas. > > 3. In common parlance and in many textual usages too the word Is'vara > being taken as a synonym of Shiva is in abundance. But those can not be > mixed with the discussion of what the Upanishadic doctrinal category > of Is'vara is equivalent to in among the Vedic or Puranic deities. > > 4. The Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is discussed as a part of > a group of doctrinal categories consisting of Brahman, Is'vara and Jiva. > > 5. At a certain level, Brahman and Is'vara are both equated with the > supreme deity of each of the pAramyavAda traditions, i.e., with Shiva in > Shaivism and with Vishnu in Vaishnavism. At another level, the distinction > between Brahman and Is'vara is taken into account and which form of Vishnu > (in Vaishnavism) or Shiva (in Shaivism) is to be taken as Brahman and which > form of Vishnu (in Vaishnavism) or Shiva (in Shaivism) is to be taken as > Is'vara is discussed. > > 6. Dr Ganesan is clearly taking a Shaivite position by saying that the > Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is to be taken as Shiva and any > argument saying that the Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is to > be taken as Vishnu could look to be Vaishnavite to him. > > I don't think you are trying to take a Vaishnavite position here, are you? > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov > wrote: > >> Dear Ganesan, >> >> As for the popularity of the Gita before Sankara, he himself in his >> introduction to the commentary says that the work has been explained many >> times before him, word by word and sentence by sentence. See also >> Nakamura's "A History of Early Vedanta Philosophy," Vol. 2. >> >> Aleksandar >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:45 AM, Dr. T. Ganesan >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Samkara, Vachaspatimisra, etc. all belong to 8th century; whereas my >>> point is Patanjali, Kalidasa are all much earlier to them. As mentioned in >>> the earlier post, beginning from Svetasvataropanishad (which is >>> indisputably one of the earliest Upanishad-s), Kaivalyopanishad, >>> Atharvasikhaa, Atharvasiras, (where the words ISAna, ISa are also used) and >>> in the Amarakosa, also one of the earliest Kosa-s, Ishvara denotes only >>> Siva. >>> >>> Note the Amarakosa passage: >>> >>> >>> ?ambhur*??a?* pa?upati? ?iva? ??l? mah??vara? . >>> >>> * ??vara? *?arva *???na?* ?a?kara?candra??khara?. >>> >>> >>> The period of BhagavadgItA as we have it now, cannot be so earlier or >>> contemporaneous with Patanjali or Kalidasa. And, definitely BG has been >>> inspired by the Svetasvataropanishad for its stress on Bhakti. >>> >>> Samkara appears to be mostly leaning towards VishNubhakti; it is is very >>> much evident in many of his interpretations and comments in the >>> BhagavadgiitA: at BG II.51, VI.31, Samkara states the liberated state >>> as ? the supreme state of Vishnu? (padam paramam vishnoH); in BG XIII.18, >>> he clearly identifies paramAtmA with VAsudeva. >>> >>> >>> Ganesan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 28-04-2016 05:40, Elliot Stern wrote: >>> >>> V?caspatimi?ra, generally understood to favor ?iva, acknowledges that >>> adherents of the P?ta?jalayoga??stram consider Vi??u to be their ??vara. He >>> says, in concluding his comment on ?dividv?nnirm??acittamadhi??h?ya >>> k?ru?y?dbhagav?nparamar?ir?sur?ya jij??sam?n?ya tantra? prov?ca >>> (yogabh??yam to yogas?tram 1.25): >>> >>> sa eve?vara ?dividv?nkapilo vi??urna<:> svayambh?riti bh?va?~| >>> sv?yambhuv?n?? tv??vara iti bh?va?~| >>> >>> James Haughton Woods translates this as: [The reply would be that] this >>> same ??vara, the First Knower, the Self-existent Vishnu [is] Kapila. "But >>> [He is] the ??vara of those descended from the Self-existent." This is the >>> point. >>> >>> Note that V?caspati frequently refers to adherents of the >>> P?ta?jalayoga??stram as sv?yambhuva? (for example, in ny?yaka?ik?). >>> >>> Elliot M. Stern >>> 552 South 48th Street >>> Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >>> United States of America >>> telephone: 215-747-6204 >>> mobile: 267-240-8418 >>> emstern at verizon.net >>> >>> On 27 Apr 2016, at 05:28, Dr. T. Ganesan < >>> ganesan at ifpindia.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell wrote: >>> >>> T*he ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on a more >>> sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as **s?an?kara-pu?janam? in >>> the **?ivayogad?pik?**. * >>> >>> >>> My observation on this point is: >>> Sankarapuujanam need be taken as 'a sectarian flavour'. For, Isvara >>> denotes only Siva as we find in all the Upanishads and other texts; >>> Svetasvataropanishad repeats this word denoting Siva many times and it can >>> not be interpreted in any other way. >>> >>> As Kalidasa says in the invocatory verse of his drama, Vikramorvasiyam, >>> >>> ved?nte?u yam?hurekapuru?a? vy?pya sthita? rodas? / >>> >>> yasminn??vara ityananyavi?aya? ?abdo yath?rth?k?ara? / >>> >>> Isvara denotes only Siva from the early period. Kalidasa is of the firm >>> view that the entire Vedanta corpus (ved?nte?u) proclaims Siva to be >>> the highest Reality (puru?a) that pervades all the universe. Kalidasa >>> and Patanjali definitely belong to very early period. Thus by >>> ??v?ra-pra?idh?na it is fully plausible and also possible, that >>> Patanjali meant only worship of Siva. And, worshipping a supreme God need >>> not be interpreted as ''sectarian''. One cannot ''worship'' a supreme >>> reality which is nirguna. >>> >>> >>> Ganesan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 26-04-2016 21:53, Rafal Kleczek wrote: >>> >>> Thank you very much for your observations. I have not been aware of the >>> variations on the concept of yama/niyama in Puranas and later Yogic texts, >>> it is most interesting. >>> The subject of difference in "niyama" regulations for ascetics at >>> different stages in Kau??inya's theory is quite interesting. Kau??inya >>> himself considers it a peculiar trait of the system, or scripture >>> ("tantra"). At the same time, a similar differentiation of niyama rules >>> seems to be accepted by some early Naiy?yikas, who otherwise seem to follow >>> quite closely the theory of Pata?jali (with regard to the practice of Yoga). >>> Even though it seems true, that Ny?ya came under influence of P??upata >>> authors at some point, this idea of differentiation of niyamas is hinted at >>> even in V?tsy?yana's Bh??ya--which was written too early to speak about >>> P??upata influence, I think. Hence the search for other possible sources of >>> this peculiar variation. >>> With best wishes, >>> Rafal >>> >>> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell < >>> sethpowell at g.harvard.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Rafal, >>>> >>>> Later medieval tantric and Ha?hayoga treatises sometimes include both >>>> 10 yamas and 10 niyamas. For example, Chapter 25 of the *S?a?rada?* >>>> *tilakatantra*, the *?ivayogad?pik?*, *Yogayaj??valkya*, and many >>>> others ? and here, I imagine, particularly for the ?aiva texts, they might >>>> be drawing from the earlier P??upata yoga traditions. >>>> >>>> As always, across these yoga texts and traditions, there is fluidity >>>> and malleability, but they seem to all draw from a shared >>>> yama-niyama palette, if you will. The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for >>>> example, often takes on a more sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? >>>> in the *?ivayogad?pik?*. >>>> >>>> Yet, often the medieval yoga texts appear to explicitly omit them, such >>>> as Sv?tm?r?ma?s *Ha?haprad?pik?* (although a later 10-chapter version >>>> of this text does include yamas and niyamas), and thus we are left to >>>> speculate on their optionality. Perhaps they were left to be filled in by a >>>> guru, or elsewhere from a sectarian tradition, or were in fact left out of >>>> yogic praxis entirely (although I doubt this). But I think it?s safe to say >>>> if they are included in a prescriptive yoga text, they were not considered >>>> optional for that author, but rather par for the course. This is most clear >>>> in the PY? and its commentaries, as Prof. Bryant astutely notes, but I >>>> think also holds for the later medieval texts as well. >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> >>>> Seth >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> *Seth D. Powell* >>>> *Doctoral Student* >>>> Committee on the Study of Religion >>>> Harvard University >>>> >>>> *ATG Student Consultant* >>>> Academic Technology Group (ATG) >>>> Harvard University Information Technology >>>> >>>> *p* 707 494 4721 >>>> *e* sethpowell at g.harvard.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 26, 2016, at 8:02 AM, edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama regulations to be >>>> permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, depending on time, >>>> place, >>>> etc.? Is it a common understanding of the division between yama and >>>> niyama >>>> among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches of ??aivism? >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't recall reading this in any YS commentary. It probably comes from >>>> the idea that it is after the yama verse that Patanjali stresses (with >>>> uncharacteristic emphasis, one might add, both in terms of his own >>>> overall >>>> tone, and in terms of the sutra penchant for non-repetition or >>>> redundancy), that they are inviolable (i.e. he chose not to state this >>>> after the niyama verse which follows the yama verse). However, 3 of the >>>> niyamas are listed under kriya yoga in the opening verse of chapter 2, >>>> so, >>>> given they are repeated again in the astanga section there is no sense >>>> in >>>> the YS tradition that they are optional. >>>> >>>> 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama regulations? >>>> >>>> >>>> The Bhagavata Purana has 10 yamas. If the Pasupata texts have 10, I >>>> would >>>> probably search the Siva, Skandha or Linga puranas for precedents. >>>> >>>> With best wishes, Edwin Bryant. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Thu Apr 28 15:45:49 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 17:45:49 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: atithi?sev? Ancient Polish proverb: "Go?? w dom, B?g w dom" thought to express the very concept of Polish hospitality - and usually translated as: ?A guest in the home is God in the home.? But, the sense of the proverb is slightly, but meaningfully different: "A guest [entering] into [our] home, is [like] God [entering] into [our] home". Idealists, those ancient Poles --- But OK, nothing to be ashamed of. Artur -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Thu Apr 28 16:38:36 2016 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 09:38:36 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ivy Racism Message-ID: http://www.newsgram.com/in-brown-university-usa-students-protest-kirtan-singing-by-white-woman-not-born-hindu/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 17:32:59 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 23:02:59 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ivy Racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It is better to read reports in a reliable news source which actually states what happened. The newsgram site has no information about its editorial board , the news article linked below has no author name (posted by Admin), and the headline refers to a certain "Bown University" (so much for a site that is ?highly competitive and professional in all its operations? and has ?a professional team of editors?) and makes claims which I doubt are true. The DNA (a reliable news source) published a report http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-us-university-students-protest-hindu-chants-by-white-woman-2206185 which is probably more reliable. On 28 April 2016 at 22:08, Howard Resnick
wrote: > > http://www.newsgram.com/in-brown-university-usa-students-protest-kirtan-singing-by-white-woman-not-born-hindu/ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nity?nanda Mi?ra http://nmisra.googlepages.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Thu Apr 28 19:03:11 2016 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 12:03:11 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ivy Racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4280BD5A-BC12-4072-9AF0-FF2C90C161CD@ivs.edu> Thank you for this reliable confirmation. > On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Nityanand Misra wrote: > > It is better to read reports in a reliable news source which actually states what happened. The newsgram site has no information about its editorial board , the news article linked below has no author name (posted by Admin), and the headline refers to a certain "Bown University" (so much for a site that is ?highly competitive and professional in all its operations? and has ?a professional team of editors?) and makes claims which I doubt are true. > > The DNA (a reliable news source) published a report > > http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-us-university-students-protest-hindu-chants-by-white-woman-2206185 > > which is probably more reliable. > > On 28 April 2016 at 22:08, Howard Resnick
> wrote: > http://www.newsgram.com/in-brown-university-usa-students-protest-kirtan-singing-by-white-woman-not-born-hindu/ > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Nity?nanda Mi?ra > http://nmisra.googlepages.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From whitakjl at wfu.edu Thu Apr 28 19:55:31 2016 From: whitakjl at wfu.edu (Jarrod Whitaker) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 15:55:31 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Textbook Formation In-Reply-To: <56B23499.7050905@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <57226AB3.6050900@wfu.edu> Colleagues: A former student, now in grad. school, is writing a term paper on Sanskrit textbooks and their relationship to the history of Sanskrit in the West and the effect of Classical pedagogy on their design. She's reached out to me for any literature on this subject and I've drawn a blank. Your suggestions are most welcome. JW Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. Associate Professor, Graduate Program Director, Department for the Study of Religions. Faculty, Department of Women's, Gender and Sexuality Studies. Wake Forest University P.O. Box 7212 Winston-Salem, NC 27109 whitakjl at wfu.edu p 336.758.4162 From anand.venkatkrishnan at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 20:43:24 2016 From: anand.venkatkrishnan at gmail.com (Anand Venkatkrishnan) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 21:43:24 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Textbook Formation In-Reply-To: <57226AB3.6050900@wfu.edu> Message-ID: Dear Jarrod, One possible source is Stephen G. Alter, *William Dwight Whitney and the Science of Language* (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, 2005). There are some notes on Sanskrit pedagogy in the West scattered through Radhavallabh Tripathi, ed., ??????????????????: *Sixty Years of Sanskrit Studies, Vol. 2* (New Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 2012). Regards, Anand On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 8:55 PM, Jarrod Whitaker wrote: > Colleagues: > A former student, now in grad. school, is writing a term paper on Sanskrit > textbooks and their relationship to the history of Sanskrit in the West and > the effect of Classical pedagogy on their design. She's reached out to me > for any literature on this subject and I've drawn a blank. > > Your suggestions are most welcome. > > JW > > Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. > Associate Professor, > Graduate Program Director, > Department for the Study of Religions. > > Faculty, Department of Women's, > Gender and Sexuality Studies. > > Wake Forest University > P.O. Box 7212 > Winston-Salem, NC 27109 > whitakjl at wfu.edu > p 336.758.4162 > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Anand Venkatkrishnan Junior Research Fellow Balliol College, Oxford Ph.D. South Asian Religions Columbia University (2015) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 22:53:36 2016 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 15:53:36 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Textbook Formation In-Reply-To: <57226AB3.6050900@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <532FDA2F-A81D-40DC-A4C1-E31D82B17FD8@mail.ubc.ca> Dear Jarrod, Iwona Milewska (Institute of Oriental Philology, Jagiellonian Univ., Al. Mickiewicza 9/11, 31-120 Krakow, Poland) has written a Ph.D. dissertation on Western Sanskrit textbooks. I will send you her email privately. I hope it still works. Best wishes. a.a. From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 23:12:37 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 19:12:37 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Textbook Formation In-Reply-To: <532FDA2F-A81D-40DC-A4C1-E31D82B17FD8@mail.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Dear Ashok, Do you know if it s possible to get a copy of this dissertation. Thanks, Harry Spier On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 6:53 PM, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > Dear Jarrod, > > Iwona Milewska (Institute of Oriental Philology, Jagiellonian Univ., Al. > Mickiewicza 9/11, 31-120 Krakow, Poland) has written a Ph.D. dissertation > on Western Sanskrit textbooks. I will send you her email privately. I hope > it still works. > > Best wishes. > > a.a. > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hermantull at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 23:20:51 2016 From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 16 19:20:51 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Textbook Formation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I already replied privately to Jarrod, but given the interest, let me add my article published last year that delves into a number of these issues, "Whence Sanskrit? : A Brief History of Sanskrit Pedagogy in the West" in International Journal of Hindu Studies 19 (1-2):213-256 (2015)? (Gerow Festschrift volume)? Herman Tull On Apr 28, 2016 7:13 PM, "Harry Spier" wrote: > Dear Ashok, > > Do you know if it s possible to get a copy of this dissertation. > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 6:53 PM, Ashok Aklujkar > wrote: > >> Dear Jarrod, >> >> Iwona Milewska (Institute of Oriental Philology, Jagiellonian Univ., Al. >> Mickiewicza 9/11, 31-120 Krakow, Poland) has written a Ph.D. dissertation >> on Western Sanskrit textbooks. I will send you her email privately. I hope >> it still works. >> >> Best wishes. >> >> a.a. >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 02:01:01 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 07:31:01 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 26 April 2016 at 14:48, Artur Karp wrote: > Dear Nagaraj, > > Motive and method. > > motive: atithi-seva ---> if selfless, ultimate Liberation; method: > bubhukSAjaya (bubhukSA with its load of feelings/emotions - put in there in > the process of its formation as a *desiderative* derivate) > > Would *THAT* make sense? > > Dear Prof. Karp Apologies for the delayed response. I agree with you that the intensity of the desire in case of both ?lips?? and ?bubhuk??? depends on the context, and the use of the desiderative affix ?san? per se. This had been my assertion all along. However, I have some comments to make on your observations *[A] ?And these emotions/feelings are - not necessarily distinctly - expressed by the poet's choice of a desiderative derivate form.?* *[B] ?bubhukSAjaya (bubhukSA with its load of feelings/emotions - put in there in the process of its formation as a desiderative derivate)?* If the implication is that the word ?bubhuk??? (with the desiderative affix) in the line 14.093.066a (?bubhuk??? jayate yastu ??) conveys something that the word ?k?udh?? (without the desiderative affix) in the lines 14.093.065a (?k?udh? nir?udati praj??? ...?) and 14.093.065c (?k?udh?parigataj??no ...?) does not, then I would disagree. The reason is as per the Dh?tup??ha, the root ?k?udh? is used in the very meaning of ?bubhuk???: ?k?udha bubhuk??y?m? (DP 1190). Pushpa Dikshit comments on this ?bubhuk?? bhoktumicch?? (P??in?yadh?tup??ha? S?rtha?, Pu?p?d?k?itaviracita?, January 2011, Mah?deva??strigrantham?l? 19, Samskrita Bharati: New Delhi, ISBN 978-93-81160-12-1, p. 37) Therefore, the root ?k?udh? without the desiderative affix `san? conveys exactly what the root ?bhuj? conveys with the desiderative affix ?san?. As a result, *[1] ?k?udhyati? = ?bubhuk?ate? * Both mean exactly the same, ?wants to eat? or ?feels hungry?. The ??tmanepada? in ?bubhuk?ate? is by ?bhujo?navane? (A 1.3.66) and ?p?rvavatsana?? (A 1.3.62). Examples of the root ?k?udh? in ?Bha??ik?vyam? and their explanations by Mallin?tha would confirm this. In the verse 5.66, Mallin?tha explains the ?k?udhyanta?? (a ??atranta? form) as *[2] ?k?udhyanta?? = ?bubhuk?am?????* Both mean `those who want to eat? (adjective for serpents). In the verse 6.45, Mallin?tha explains ?k?udhyat?? (also a ??atranta? form) as *[3] ?k?udhyat?? = ?bubhuk?am??ena?* Both mean `by one who wants to eat? (adjective for the demon Kabandha). In the verse 9.39, Mallin?tha explains ?k?udhitv?? (a ?ktv?nta? form) as *[3] ?k?udhitv?? = ?bubhuk?itv??* Both mean `after wanting to eat? (describing Hanum?n after slaying of Ak?a and before the destruction of the forest). The ?Amarako?a? (?a?an?y? bubhuk?? k?ut?, 2.9.54) also confirms that *[4] `k?ut? = ?bubhuk???* Both mean `desire to eat?. The word `k?udh?? is simply the Bh?guri version of `k?ut? (nominative singular from the lemma `k?udh?) as per ?va??i bh?gurirallopamav?pyorupasargayo?, ?pa? caiva halant?n?? yath? v?c? di?? ni??? (?K?rik?? #2 at the end of ?Avyayaprakara?a? in ?Vaiy?kara?asiddh?ntakaumud??). The ?Vy?khy?sudh?? commentary on ?Amarako?a? 2.9.54 confirms this by explaining `k?ut?: ?k?odhanam, k?udha bubhuk??y?m (di pa a), kvip (3.2.178), bh?gurimate ??pi ?k?udh?? ca.? This proves that *[5] `k?udh?? = ?bubhuk???* *Therefore whatever the word ?bubhuk??? (with the desiderative affix) conveys in the line 14.093.066a (?bubhuk??? jayate yastu ??), exactly the same sense is conveyed by the word ?k?udh?? (without the desiderative affix) in the lines 14.093.065a (?k?udh? nir?udati praj??? ...?) and 14.093.065c (?k?udh?parigataj??no ...?).* PS: There are also desiderative forms of `k?udh.? The ?Dh?tur?panandin??(Janardana Hegde, 2013, New Delhi: Samskrita Bharati, ISBN 978-81-87276-67-3, p. 259) lists the ?san? conjugation as ?cuk?utsati?. Now this form cannot be expressed by taking `san? from the `sannanta? root ` bubhuk?? since ??ai?ik?nmatubarth?y?cchai?iko matubarthaka?, sar?pa? pratyayo ne??a? sannant?nna sani?yate? (K?rik? in `Mah?bh??ya? 3.1.7). So we simply say *[6] `cuk?utsati? = ?bubhuk?itum icchati?* means ?wants to wants to eat? (???? ????? ?????/????? ??) or `wants to be hungry? (???? ???? ?????/????? ??). It sounds odd in English or Hindi, but it is difficult to translate the language of the gods in the world of men. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 03:10:51 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 08:40:51 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I heard from my American teachers of Culture Studies that even in US, there used to be a phrase 'FKB' (Family Keep Back) indicating a hospitality norm of host family members waiting until the guests are provided to their (guests') satisfaction. Modernity and modernization seem to be diluting some of these universal ideals. On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 7:31 AM, Nityanand Misra wrote: > > > On 26 April 2016 at 14:48, Artur Karp wrote: > >> Dear Nagaraj, >> >> Motive and method. >> >> motive: atithi-seva ---> if selfless, ultimate Liberation; method: >> bubhukSAjaya (bubhukSA with its load of feelings/emotions - put in there in >> the process of its formation as a *desiderative* derivate) >> >> Would *THAT* make sense? >> >> > Dear Prof. Karp > > > Apologies for the delayed response. I agree with you that the intensity of > the desire in case of both ?lips?? and ?bubhuk??? depends on the context, > and the use of the desiderative affix ?san? per se. This had been my > assertion all along. However, I have some comments to make on your > observations > > > *[A] ?And these emotions/feelings are - not necessarily distinctly - > expressed by the poet's choice of a desiderative derivate form.?* > > *[B] ?bubhukSAjaya (bubhukSA with its load of feelings/emotions - put in > there in the process of its formation as a desiderative derivate)?* > > > If the implication is that the word ?bubhuk??? (with the desiderative > affix) in the line 14.093.066a (?bubhuk??? jayate yastu ??) conveys > something that the word ?k?udh?? (without the desiderative affix) in the > lines 14.093.065a (?k?udh? nir?udati praj??? ...?) and 14.093.065c > (?k?udh?parigataj??no ...?) does not, then I would disagree. > > > The reason is as per the Dh?tup??ha, the root ?k?udh? is used in the very > meaning of ?bubhuk???: ?k?udha bubhuk??y?m? (DP 1190). Pushpa Dikshit > comments on this ?bubhuk?? bhoktumicch?? (P??in?yadh?tup??ha? S?rtha?, > Pu?p?d?k?itaviracita?, January 2011, Mah?deva??strigrantham?l? 19, > Samskrita Bharati: New Delhi, ISBN 978-93-81160-12-1, p. 37) > > > Therefore, the root ?k?udh? without the desiderative affix `san? conveys > exactly what the root ?bhuj? conveys with the desiderative affix ?san?. As > a result, > > > *[1] ?k?udhyati? = ?bubhuk?ate? * > > > Both mean exactly the same, ?wants to eat? or ?feels hungry?. The > ??tmanepada? in ?bubhuk?ate? is by ?bhujo?navane? (A 1.3.66) and > ?p?rvavatsana?? (A 1.3.62). > > > Examples of the root ?k?udh? in ?Bha??ik?vyam? and their explanations by > Mallin?tha would confirm this. In the verse 5.66, Mallin?tha explains the > ?k?udhyanta?? (a ??atranta? form) as > > > *[2] ?k?udhyanta?? = ?bubhuk?am?????* > > > Both mean `those who want to eat? (adjective for serpents). In the verse > 6.45, Mallin?tha explains ?k?udhyat?? (also a ??atranta? form) as > > > *[3] ?k?udhyat?? = ?bubhuk?am??ena?* > > > Both mean `by one who wants to eat? (adjective for the demon Kabandha). In > the verse 9.39, Mallin?tha explains ?k?udhitv?? (a ?ktv?nta? form) as > > > *[3] ?k?udhitv?? = ?bubhuk?itv??* > > > Both mean `after wanting to eat? (describing Hanum?n after slaying of > Ak?a and before the destruction of the forest). The ?Amarako?a? (?a?an?y? > bubhuk?? k?ut?, 2.9.54) also confirms that > > > *[4] `k?ut? = ?bubhuk???* > > > Both mean `desire to eat?. The word `k?udh?? is simply the Bh?guri version > of `k?ut? (nominative singular from the lemma `k?udh?) as per ?va??i > bh?gurirallopamav?pyorupasargayo?, ?pa? caiva halant?n?? yath? v?c? di?? > ni??? (?K?rik?? #2 at the end of ?Avyayaprakara?a? in > ?Vaiy?kara?asiddh?ntakaumud??). The ?Vy?khy?sudh?? commentary on > ?Amarako?a? 2.9.54 confirms this by explaining `k?ut?: ?k?odhanam, k?udha > bubhuk??y?m (di pa a), kvip (3.2.178), bh?gurimate ??pi ?k?udh?? ca.? This > proves that > > > *[5] `k?udh?? = ?bubhuk???* > > > > *Therefore whatever the word ?bubhuk??? (with the desiderative affix) > conveys in the line 14.093.066a (?bubhuk??? jayate yastu ??), exactly the > same sense is conveyed by the word ?k?udh?? (without the desiderative > affix) in the lines 14.093.065a (?k?udh? nir?udati praj??? ...?) and > 14.093.065c (?k?udh?parigataj??no ...?).* > > > > PS: There are also desiderative forms of `k?udh.? The > ?Dh?tur?panandin??(Janardana Hegde, 2013, New Delhi: Samskrita Bharati, > ISBN 978-81-87276-67-3, p. 259) lists the ?san? conjugation as > ?cuk?utsati?. Now this form cannot be expressed by taking `san? from the > `sannanta? root ` bubhuk?? since ??ai?ik?nmatubarth?y?cchai?iko > matubarthaka?, sar?pa? pratyayo ne??a? sannant?nna sani?yate? (K?rik? in > `Mah?bh??ya? 3.1.7). So we simply say > > > *[6] `cuk?utsati? = ?bubhuk?itum icchati?* > > > means ?wants to wants to eat? (???? ????? ?????/????? ??) or `wants to be > hungry? (???? ???? ?????/????? ??). It sounds odd in English or Hindi, > but it is difficult to translate the language of the gods in the world of > men. > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesan at ifpindia.org Fri Apr 29 05:15:40 2016 From: ganesan at ifpindia.org (Dr. T. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 10:45:40 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5722EDFC.4@ifpindia.org> Dear Aleksander, If you /were just taking exception with the identification Isvara = Siva in the Svetasvatara = in all Upanisads = in Kalidasa = ergo in Patanjali as his contemporary,/ then, what on earth does the word Isvara denote in the Svetasvataropanishad and in the woks of Kalidasa ?? Ganesan On 28-04-2016 21:10, Aleksandar Uskokov wrote: > Dear Nagaraj, > > No, nothing of that kind. I was just taking exception with the > identification Isvara = Siva in the Svetasvatara = in all Upanisads = > in Kalidasa = ergo in Patanjali as his contemporary. The idea of > Isvara, as your points well illustrate, is too rich for such a simple > identification. > > Best > Aleksandar > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > > wrote: > > 1. When we bring Vishnu into this discussion, we need to clarify > whether we are talking about the Vedic concepts such as > Narayana and Vishnu as distinct from the Puranic > Vishnu/ Narayana , with attributes such as the vaikunThavAsa etc. > > 2. The Upanishadic concept of Is'vara , like the one > with identical name in nyAya and other dars'anas is not a deity > neither Vedic nor Puranic but a doctrinal category. Since, unlike > in the case of the other dars'anas, in Upanishads, there is a > scope for vEdArtha upabrmhaNa link with Puranas or Veda-Vedanta > relation with the Vedas , the Upanishadic doctrinal category > of Is'vara is open to the discussion of whether that can be viewed > as Shiva of the Puranas or Vishnu of the Vedas or Narayana of the > Vedas or Vishnu / Narayana of the Puranas. > > 3. In common parlance and in many textual usages too the word > Is'vara being taken as a synonym of Shiva is in abundance. But > those can not be mixed with the discussion of what the Upanishadic > doctrinal category of Is'vara is equivalent to in among the > Vedic or Puranic deities. > > 4. The Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is discussed as a > part of a group of doctrinal categories consisting of Brahman, > Is'vara and Jiva. > > 5. At a certain level, Brahman and Is'vara are both equated with > the supreme deity of each of the pAramyavAda traditions, i.e., > with Shiva in Shaivism and with Vishnu in Vaishnavism. At another > level, the distinction between Brahman and Is'vara is taken into > account and which form of Vishnu (in Vaishnavism) or Shiva (in > Shaivism) is to be taken as Brahman and which form of Vishnu (in > Vaishnavism) or Shiva (in Shaivism) is to be taken as Is'vara is > discussed. > > 6. Dr Ganesan is clearly taking a Shaivite position by saying that > the Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is to be taken as > Shiva and any argument saying that the Upanishadic doctrinal > category of Is'vara is to be taken as Vishnu could look to be > Vaishnavite to him. > > I don't think you are trying to take a Vaishnavite position here, > are you? > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov > > wrote: > > Dear Ganesan, > > As for the popularity of the Gita before Sankara, he himself > in his introduction to the commentary says that the work has > been explained many times before him, word by word and > sentence by sentence. See also Nakamura's "A History of Early > Vedanta Philosophy," Vol. 2. > > Aleksandar > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:45 AM, Dr. T. Ganesan > > wrote: > > > Samkara, Vachaspatimisra, etc. all belong to 8th century; > whereas my point is Patanjali, Kalidasa are all much > earlier to them. As mentioned in the earlier post, > beginning from Svetasvataropanishad (which is indisputably > one of the earliest Upanishad-s), Kaivalyopanishad, > Atharvasikhaa, Atharvasiras, (where the words ISAna, ISa > are also used) and in the Amarakosa, also one of the > earliest Kosa-s, Ishvara denotes only Siva. > > Note the Amarakosa passage: > > ?ambhur_??a?_ pa?upati? ?iva? ??l? mah??vara? . > > _??vara? _?arva _???na?_ ?a?kara?candra??khara?. > > > > The period of BhagavadgItA as we have it now, cannot be so > earlier or contemporaneous with Patanjali or Kalidasa. > And, definitely BG has been inspired by the > Svetasvataropanishad for its stress on Bhakti. > > Samkara appears to be mostly leaning towards VishNubhakti; > it is is very much evident in many of his interpretations > and comments in the BhagavadgiitA: at BG II.51, > VI.31,Samkara states the liberated state as ?the supreme > state of Vishnu? (padam paramam vishnoH); in BG XIII.18, > he clearly identifies paramAtmA with VAsudeva. > > > Ganesan > > > > > > > On 28-04-2016 05:40, Elliot Stern wrote: >> V?caspatimi?ra, generally understood to favor ?iva, >> acknowledges that adherents of the P?ta?jalayoga??stram >> consider Vi??u to be their ??vara. He says, in concluding >> his comment on ?dividv?nnirm??acittamadhi??h?ya >> k?ru?y?dbhagav?nparamar?ir?sur?ya jij??sam?n?ya tantra? >> prov?ca (yogabh??yam to yogas?tram 1.25): >> >> sa eve?vara ?dividv?nkapilo vi??urna<:> svayambh?riti >> bh?va?~| sv?yambhuv?n?? tv??vara iti bh?va?~| >> >> James Haughton Woods translates this as: [The reply would >> be that] this same ??vara, the First Knower, the >> Self-existent Vishnu [is] Kapila. "But [He is] the ??vara >> of those descended from the Self-existent." This is the >> point. >> Note that V?caspati frequently refers to adherents of the >> P?ta?jalayoga??stram as sv?yambhuva? (for example, in >> ny?yaka?ik?). >> >> Elliot M. Stern >> 552 South 48th Street >> Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >> United States of America >> telephone: 215-747-6204 >> mobile: 267-240-8418 >> emstern at verizon.net >> >>> On 27 Apr 2016, at 05:28, Dr. T. Ganesan >>> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell >>> >> > wrote: >>>> T/he ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often >>>> takes on a more sectarian flavor in the later texts, >>>> such as //s?an?kara-pu?janam? in the //?ivayogad?pik?//. /// >>> >>> My observation on this point is: >>> Sankarapuujanam need be taken as 'a sectarian flavour'. >>> For, Isvara denotes only Siva as we find in all the >>> Upanishads and other texts; Svetasvataropanishad repeats >>> this word denoting Siva many times and it can not be >>> interpreted in any other way. >>> >>> As Kalidasa says in the invocatory verse of his drama, >>> Vikramorvasiyam, >>> >>> ved?nte?u yam?hurekapuru?a?vy?pya sthita?rodas? / >>> >>> yasminn??vara ityananyavi?aya??abdo yath?rth?k?ara?/ >>> >>> >>> Isvara denotes only Siva from the early period. Kalidasa >>> is of the firm view that the entire Vedanta corpus >>> (ved?nte?u) proclaims Siva to be the highest Reality >>> (puru?a) that pervades all the universe. Kalidasa and >>> Patanjali definitely belong to very early period. Thus >>> by ??v?ra-pra?idh?na it is fully plausible and also >>> possible, that Patanjali meant only worship of Siva. >>> And, worshipping a supreme God need not be interpreted >>> as ''sectarian''. One cannot ''worship'' a supreme >>> reality which is nirguna. >>> >>> >>> Ganesan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 26-04-2016 21:53, Rafal Kleczek wrote: >>>> Thank you very much for your observations. I have not >>>> been aware of the variations on the concept of >>>> yama/niyama in Puranas and later Yogic texts, it is >>>> most interesting. >>>> The subject of difference in "niyama" regulations for >>>> ascetics at different stages in Kau??inya's theory is >>>> quite interesting. Kau??inya himself considers it a >>>> peculiar trait of the system, or scripture ("tantra"). >>>> At the same time, a similar differentiation of niyama >>>> rules seems to be accepted by some early Naiy?yikas, >>>> who otherwise seem to follow quite closely the theory >>>> of Pata?jali (with regard to the practice of Yoga). >>>> Even though it seems true, that Ny?ya came under >>>> influence of P??upata authors at some point, this idea >>>> of differentiation of niyamas is hinted at even in >>>> V?tsy?yana's Bh??ya--which was written too early to >>>> speak about P??upata influence, I think. Hence the >>>> search for other possible sources of this peculiar >>>> variation. >>>> With best wishes, >>>> Rafal >>>> >>>> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Rafal, >>>> >>>> Later medieval tantric and Ha?hayoga treatises >>>> sometimes include both 10 yamas and 10 niyamas. For >>>> example, Chapter 25 of the /S?a?rada?//tilakatantra/, >>>> the /?ivayogad?pik?/, /Yogayaj??valkya/, and many >>>> others ? and here, I imagine, particularly for the >>>> ?aiva texts, they might be drawing from the earlier >>>> P??upata yoga traditions. >>>> >>>> As always, across these yoga texts and traditions, >>>> there is fluidity and malleability, but they seem >>>> to all draw from a shared yama-niyama palette, if >>>> you will. The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for >>>> example, often takes on a more sectarian flavor in >>>> the later texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? in the >>>> /?ivayogad?pik?/. >>>> >>>> Yet, often the medieval yoga texts appear to >>>> explicitly omit them, such as Sv?tm?r?ma?s >>>> /Ha?haprad?pik?/ (although a later >>>> 10-chapter version of this text does include yamas >>>> and niyamas), and thus we are left to speculate on >>>> their optionality. Perhaps they were left to be >>>> filled in by a guru, or elsewhere from a sectarian >>>> tradition, or were in fact left out of yogic praxis >>>> entirely (although I doubt this). But I think it?s >>>> safe to say if they are included in a prescriptive >>>> yoga text, they were not considered optional for >>>> that author, but rather par for the course. This is >>>> most clear in the PY? and its commentaries, as >>>> Prof. Bryant astutely notes, but I think also holds >>>> for the later medieval texts as well. >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> >>>> Seth >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> *Seth D. Powell* >>>> /Doctoral Student/ >>>> Committee on the Study of Religion >>>> Harvard University >>>> >>>> /ATG Student Consultant/ >>>> Academic Technology Group (ATG) >>>> Harvard University Information Technology >>>> >>>> *p*707 494 4721 >>>> *e*sethpowell at g.harvard.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Apr 26, 2016, at 8:02 AM, >>>>> edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama >>>>>> regulations to be >>>>>> permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, >>>>>> depending on time, place, >>>>>> etc.? Is it a common understanding of the >>>>>> division between yama and niyama >>>>>> among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches >>>>>> of ??aivism? >>>>> >>>>> I don't recall reading this in any YS commentary. >>>>> It probably comes from >>>>> the idea that it is after the yama verse that >>>>> Patanjali stresses (with >>>>> uncharacteristic emphasis, one might add, both in >>>>> terms of his own overall >>>>> tone, and in terms of the sutra penchant for >>>>> non-repetition or >>>>> redundancy), that they are inviolable (i.e. he >>>>> chose not to state this >>>>> after the niyama verse which follows the yama >>>>> verse). However, 3 of the >>>>> niyamas are listed under kriya yoga in the opening >>>>> verse of chapter 2, so, >>>>> given they are repeated again in the astanga >>>>> section there is no sense in >>>>> the YS tradition that they are optional. >>>>> >>>>>> 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama >>>>>> regulations? >>>>> >>>>> The Bhagavata Purana has 10 yamas. If the >>>>> Pasupata texts have 10, I would >>>>> probably search the Siva, Skandha or Linga puranas >>>>> for precedents. >>>>> >>>>> With best wishes, Edwin Bryant. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From georges.pinault at wanadoo.fr Fri Apr 29 07:14:48 2016 From: georges.pinault at wanadoo.fr (Georges PINAULT) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 09:14:48 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Textbook Formation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1484537638.2195.1461914088998.JavaMail.www@wwinf1h22> Dear Jarrod,?? Thanks for your interest about this topic. I may recommend a paper written by Emilie Aussant (CNRS, Paris), delivered first at the 15th WSC (Delhi), and which is now in print: "The Vy?karanic descriptive model and the French grammar of Sanskrit", in Jan E.M. Houben & P.-S. Filliozat (eds.), Proceedings of the Linguistics section of the 15th World Sanskrit Conference, D.K. Printworld.? This is a quite accurate survey of the?handbooks.?I guess that you may have a copy of the manuscript by writting personally to Dr. Emilie Aussant:?? emilie.aussant at linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr Best regards,??? Georges-Jean Pinaut ? ? ? ? > Message du 28/04/16 22:44 > De : "Anand Venkatkrishnan" > A : "Jarrod Whitaker" > Copie ? : indology at list.indology.info > Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Textbook Formation > > Dear Jarrod, > One possible source is Stephen G. Alter,?William Dwight Whitney and the Science of Language?(Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, 2005). There are some notes on Sanskrit pedagogy in the West scattered through Radhavallabh Tripathi, ed., ??????????????????:?Sixty Years of Sanskrit Studies, Vol. 2?(New Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 2012). > Regards, Anand > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 8:55 PM, Jarrod Whitaker wrote: > Colleagues: > A former student, now in grad. school, is writing a term paper on Sanskrit textbooks and their relationship to the history of Sanskrit in the West and the effect of Classical pedagogy on their design. She's reached out to me for any literature on this subject and I've drawn a blank. > > Your suggestions are most welcome. > > JW > > Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. > Associate Professor, > Graduate Program Director, > Department for the Study of Religions. > > Faculty, Department of Women's, > Gender and Sexuality Studies. > > Wake Forest University > P.O. Box 7212 > Winston-Salem, NC 27109 > whitakjl at wfu.edu > p 336.758.4162 > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > -- > Anand Venkatkrishnan Junior Research Fellow > Balliol College, Oxford Ph.D. South Asian Religions Columbia University (2015) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 07:36:04 2016 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 08:36:04 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <99DA1FB3-DAD0-4070-9825-766CA8F150B4@btinternet.com> In the UK the watchword was FHB (Family Hold Back) if there was perhaps not quite enough food to go round at a party. Valerie Roebuck Manchester, UK > On 29 Apr 2016, at 04:10, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > > I heard from my American teachers of Culture Studies that even in US, there used to be a phrase 'FKB' (Family Keep Back) indicating a hospitality norm of host family members waiting until the guests are provided to their (guests') satisfaction. > > Modernity and modernization seem to be diluting some of these universal ideals. > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 7:31 AM, Nityanand Misra > wrote: > > > On 26 April 2016 at 14:48, Artur Karp > wrote: > Dear Nagaraj, > > Motive and method. > > motive: atithi-seva ---> if selfless, ultimate Liberation; method: bubhukSAjaya (bubhukSA with its load of feelings/emotions - put in there in the process of its formation as a desiderative derivate) > > Would THAT make sense? > > > Dear Prof. Karp > > > > Apologies for the delayed response. I agree with you that the intensity of the desire in case of both ?lips?? and ?bubhuk??? depends on the context, and the use of the desiderative affix ?san? per se. This had been my assertion all along. However, I have some comments to make on your observations > > > > > [A] ?And these emotions/feelings are - not necessarily distinctly - expressed by the poet's choice of a desiderative derivate form.? > > [B] ?bubhukSAjaya (bubhukSA with its load of feelings/emotions - put in there in the process of its formation as a desiderative derivate)? > > > > If the implication is that the word ?bubhuk??? (with the desiderative affix) in the line 14.093.066a (?bubhuk??? jayate yastu ??) conveys something that the word ?k?udh?? (without the desiderative affix) in the lines 14.093.065a (?k?udh? nir?udati praj??? ...?) and 14.093.065c (?k?udh?parigataj??no ...?) does not, then I would disagree. > > > > The reason is as per the Dh?tup??ha, the root ?k?udh? is used in the very meaning of ?bubhuk???: ?k?udha bubhuk??y?m? (DP 1190). Pushpa Dikshit comments on this ?bubhuk?? bhoktumicch?? (P??in?yadh?tup??ha? S?rtha?, Pu?p?d?k?itaviracita?, January 2011, Mah?deva??strigrantham?l? 19, Samskrita Bharati: New Delhi, ISBN 978-93-81160-12-1, p. 37) > > > > > Therefore, the root ?k?udh? without the desiderative affix `san? conveys exactly what the root ?bhuj? conveys with the desiderative affix ?san?. As a result, > > > > > [1] ?k?udhyati? = ?bubhuk?ate? > > > > Both mean exactly the same, ?wants to eat? or ?feels hungry?. The ??tmanepada? in ?bubhuk?ate? is by ?bhujo?navane? (A 1.3.66) and ?p?rvavatsana?? (A 1.3.62). > > > > Examples of the root ?k?udh? in ?Bha??ik?vyam? and their explanations by Mallin?tha would confirm this. In the verse 5.66, Mallin?tha explains the ?k?udhyanta?? (a ??atranta? form) as > > > > > [2] ?k?udhyanta?? = ?bubhuk?am????? > > > > Both mean `those who want to eat? (adjective for serpents). In the verse 6.45, Mallin?tha explains ?k?udhyat?? (also a ??atranta? form) as > > > > > [3] ?k?udhyat?? = ?bubhuk?am??ena? > > > > Both mean `by one who wants to eat? (adjective for the demon Kabandha). In the verse 9.39, Mallin?tha explains ?k?udhitv?? (a ?ktv?nta? form) as > > > > > [3] ?k?udhitv?? = ?bubhuk?itv?? > > > > Both mean `after wanting to eat? (describing Hanum?n after slaying of Ak?a and before the destruction of the forest). The ?Amarako?a? (?a?an?y? bubhuk?? k?ut?, 2.9.54) also confirms that > > > > > [4] `k?ut? = ?bubhuk??? > > > > Both mean `desire to eat?. The word `k?udh?? is simply the Bh?guri version of `k?ut? (nominative singular from the lemma `k?udh?) as per ?va??i bh?gurirallopamav?pyorupasargayo?, ?pa? caiva halant?n?? yath? v?c? di?? ni??? (?K?rik?? #2 at the end of ?Avyayaprakara?a? in ?Vaiy?kara?asiddh?ntakaumud??). The ?Vy?khy?sudh?? commentary on ?Amarako?a? 2.9.54 confirms this by explaining `k?ut?: ?k?odhanam, k?udha bubhuk??y?m (di pa a), kvip (3.2.178), bh?gurimate ??pi ?k?udh?? ca.? This proves that > > > > > [5] `k?udh?? = ?bubhuk??? > > > Therefore whatever the word ?bubhuk??? (with the desiderative affix) conveys in the line 14.093.066a (?bubhuk??? jayate yastu ??), exactly the same sense is conveyed by the word ?k?udh?? (without the desiderative affix) in the lines 14.093.065a (?k?udh? nir?udati praj??? ...?) and 14.093.065c (?k?udh?parigataj??no ...?). > > > PS: There are also desiderative forms of `k?udh.? The ?Dh?tur?panandin??(Janardana Hegde, 2013, New Delhi: Samskrita Bharati, ISBN 978-81-87276-67-3, p. 259) lists the ?san? conjugation as ?cuk?utsati?. Now this form cannot be expressed by taking `san? from the `sannanta? root ` bubhuk?? since ??ai?ik?nmatubarth?y?cchai?iko matubarthaka?, sar?pa? pratyayo ne??a? sannant?nna sani?yate? (K?rik? in `Mah?bh??ya? 3.1.7). So we simply say > > > > > [6] `cuk?utsati? = ?bubhuk?itum icchati? > > > > means ?wants to wants to eat? (???? ????? ?????/????? ??) or `wants to be hungry? (???? ???? ?????/????? ??). It sounds odd in English or Hindi, but it is difficult to translate the language of the gods in the world of men. > > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Fri Apr 29 07:47:53 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 09:47:53 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary Co-Authors Message-ID: Sir Monier Monier-Williams, M.A., K.C.I.E., pays due tribute to his Western contributors. But I do not find in his Dictionary any mention of his Indian contributors' input - no list of Pandits who worked for him - without them, without their immense knowledge, his Opus Magnum would have never appeared in print. I can only wish that someone with access to M-W's working archive would find documents re M-W's Indian employees and publish their names, more: using Indian archive materials - their full biograms. They deserve to be finally brought out of that area of shadow surrounding colonial Indology. Regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw (emeritus) Poland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 08:37:51 2016 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 14:07:51 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary Co-Authors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I noticed, he just translated ( based on) Kleines Petersburger Woerterbuch (Boehtlingk) *Sanskrit*- *German Dictionary (one can easily verify this)* *also he mentiones Radhakanta Dev who is an editor of Shabdakalpadruma* On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > Sir Monier Monier-Williams, M.A., K.C.I.E., pays due tribute to his > Western contributors. But I do not find in his Dictionary any mention of > his Indian contributors' input - no list of Pandits who worked for him - > without them, without their immense knowledge, his Opus Magnum would have > never appeared in print. > > I can only wish that someone with access to M-W's working archive would > find documents re M-W's Indian employees and publish their names, more: > using Indian archive materials - their full biograms. > > They deserve to be finally brought out of that area of shadow surrounding > colonial Indology. > > Regards, > > Artur Karp > > University of Warsaw (emeritus) > > Poland > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi Fri Apr 29 08:46:46 2016 From: klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 11:46:46 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary Co-Authors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5FF28BF5-E533-426F-9D3D-8B7FEB6C529A@helsinki.fi> It was noted by several contemporary critics. He even copies some of the misprints appearing in the Peterburg dictionary. But this was the first edition of Monier Williams (1872). The second edition (1899) was completely revised and in this he was helped by several assistants and colleagues ? all mentioned at the end of his introduction. He visited India three times, but never lived there, and there were no pandits in Oxford. Best, Klaus Klaus Karttunen South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418 Fax +358-(0)2941 22094 Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi > On 29 Apr 2016, at 11:37, Krishnaprasad G wrote: > > I noticed, he just translated ( based on) Kleines Petersburger Woerterbuch (Boehtlingk) Sanskrit-German Dictionary (one can easily verify this) > > also he mentiones Radhakanta Dev who is an editor of Shabdakalpadruma > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Artur Karp > wrote: > Sir Monier Monier-Williams, M.A., K.C.I.E., pays due tribute to his Western contributors. But I do not find in his Dictionary any mention of his Indian contributors' input - no list of Pandits who worked for him - without them, without their immense knowledge, his Opus Magnum would have never appeared in print. > > I can only wish that someone with access to M-W's working archive would find documents re M-W's Indian employees and publish their names, more: using Indian archive materials - their full biograms. > > They deserve to be finally brought out of that area of shadow surrounding colonial Indology. > > Regards, > > Artur Karp > > University of Warsaw (emeritus) > > Poland > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klaus.karttunen at Helsinki.Fi Fri Apr 29 08:54:57 2016 From: klaus.karttunen at Helsinki.Fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 11:54:57 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit dictionaries Message-ID: <3F01280A-025B-4872-8920-DD35B235A73A@helsinki.fi> A small addition. Pandits did influence the European dictionaries indirectly. Both B?htlingk & Roth and Monier Williams used much the so-called ?Wilson?s dictionary?, which was in fact compiled by a group of Bengali pandits and edited by Wilson. Also Apte used this source ? sometimes he gave its exact wording slightly abridged. Best, Klaus Klaus Karttunen South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418 Fax +358-(0)2941 22094 Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Fri Apr 29 08:57:34 2016 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 10:57:34 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary Co-Authors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20160429105734.65780c6ca95d31eee8d6c7fe@ff.cuni.cz> Well, the story of the M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary is much more complex. It is described in details by Ladislav Zgusta in his paper "Copying in Lexicography: Monier-Williams Sanskrit Dictionary and Other Cases (Dvaiko?yam)", Lexicographica 4 (1988): 145-173. LO On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:07:51 +0530 Krishnaprasad G wrote: > I noticed, he just translated ( based on) Kleines Petersburger Woerterbuch > (Boehtlingk) *Sanskrit*- > > *German Dictionary (one can easily verify this)* > > > > *also he mentiones Radhakanta Dev who is an editor of Shabdakalpadruma* > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > > > Sir Monier Monier-Williams, M.A., K.C.I.E., pays due tribute to his > > Western contributors. But I do not find in his Dictionary any mention of > > his Indian contributors' input - no list of Pandits who worked for him - > > without them, without their immense knowledge, his Opus Magnum would have > > never appeared in print. > > > > I can only wish that someone with access to M-W's working archive would > > find documents re M-W's Indian employees and publish their names, more: > > using Indian archive materials - their full biograms. > > > > They deserve to be finally brought out of that area of shadow surrounding > > colonial Indology. > > > > Regards, > > > > Artur Karp > > > > University of Warsaw (emeritus) > > > > Poland > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > > unsubscribe) > > From karp at uw.edu.pl Fri Apr 29 09:26:55 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 11:26:55 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary Co-Authors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Artur Karp Date: 2016-04-29 11:18 GMT+02:00 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary Co-Authors To: Klaus Karttunen Thanks for that clarification. But, dear Klaus, I still tend to have doubts. Has M-W's correspondence been checked? Have M-W Indian travels itineraries been checked? The lists of people he visited collated? M-W reminisces (p. VII): "[...] *on each occasion I met to my surprise with learned and thoughtful natives [...] able and willing [...] to explain difficult points in their languages, literatures, religions , and philosophies.*" And - even if not M-W himself, his other Western cooperators/contributors must have had Indian assistants, at some or other time of their professional careers as Indologists. ----------------------------- I can see the topic has undergone a split. Regards, Artur K. 2016-04-29 10:46 GMT+02:00 Klaus Karttunen : > It was noted by several contemporary critics. He even copies some of the > misprints appearing in the Peterburg dictionary. But this was the first > edition of Monier Williams (1872). The second edition (1899) was completely > revised and in this he was helped by several assistants and colleagues ? > all mentioned at the end of his introduction. He visited India three times, > but never lived there, and there were no pandits in Oxford. > > Best, > Klaus > > Klaus Karttunen > South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies > Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures > PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) > 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND > Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418 > Fax +358-(0)2941 22094 > Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi > > > > > > > On 29 Apr 2016, at 11:37, Krishnaprasad G > wrote: > > I noticed, he just translated ( based on) Kleines Petersburger > Woerterbuch (Boehtlingk) *Sanskrit*- > > *German Dictionary (one can easily verify this)* > > > > *also he mentiones Radhakanta Dev who is an editor of Shabdakalpadruma* > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > >> Sir Monier Monier-Williams, M.A., K.C.I.E., pays due tribute to his >> Western contributors. But I do not find in his Dictionary any mention of >> his Indian contributors' input - no list of Pandits who worked for him - >> without them, without their immense knowledge, his Opus Magnum would have >> never appeared in print. >> >> I can only wish that someone with access to M-W's working archive would >> find documents re M-W's Indian employees and publish their names, more: >> using Indian archive materials - their full biograms. >> >> They deserve to be finally brought out of that area of shadow surrounding >> colonial Indology. >> >> Regards, >> >> Artur Karp >> >> University of Warsaw (emeritus) >> >> Poland >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 09:32:47 2016 From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 15:02:47 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] How to teach Sanskrit Message-ID: Here is a short, but interesting article by the director of our centre, Dr Nikhil Govind. http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/column-by-nikhil-govind-on-how-to-teach-sanskrit/article8533357.ece Thanks. Mrinal ------ Mrinal Kaul Manipal Centre for Philosophy and Humanities (MCPH) Manipal University Dr TMA Pai Planetarium Complex Alevoor Road, Manipal, Udupi 576 104 Karnataka, INDIA Tel: +91-820-2923567 (O) Tel: +91-820-2574838 (R) https://manipal.academia.edu/MrinalKaul http://mcphcommunity.org e-mail: mrinal.kaul at manipal.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesan at ifpindia.org Fri Apr 29 11:27:45 2016 From: ganesan at ifpindia.org (Dr. T. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 16:57:45 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <57234531.4070209@ifpindia.org> It is not taking a''Shaivite position" to state that Isvara denotes Siva in the ancient times and in Patanjali, Kalidasa, etc. in line with the Svetasvataropanishad, et al. I am just stating the actual position. Unlike Samkara who takes a '' complete Vaishnavite position" in his commentary as I had shown in earlier mail, I am not at all taking any side or ''position''. Ganesan On 28-04-2016 20:49, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > 1. When we bring Vishnu into this discussion, we need to clarify > whether we are talking about the Vedic concepts such as Narayana and > Vishnu as distinct from the Puranic Vishnu/ Narayana , with attributes > such as the vaikunThavAsa etc. > > 2. The Upanishadic concept of Is'vara , like the one with identical > name in nyAya and other dars'anas is not a deity neither Vedic nor > Puranic but a doctrinal category. Since, unlike in the case of the > other dars'anas, in Upanishads, there is a scope for vEdArtha > upabrmhaNa link with Puranas or Veda-Vedanta relation with the Vedas > , the Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is open to the > discussion of whether that can be viewed as Shiva of the Puranas or > Vishnu of the Vedas or Narayana of the Vedas or Vishnu / Narayana of > the Puranas. > > 3. In common parlance and in many textual usages too the word Is'vara > being taken as a synonym of Shiva is in abundance. But those can not > be mixed with the discussion of what the Upanishadic doctrinal > category of Is'vara is equivalent to in among the Vedic or Puranic > deities. > > 4. The Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is discussed as a > part of a group of doctrinal categories consisting of Brahman, Is'vara > and Jiva. > > 5. At a certain level, Brahman and Is'vara are both equated with the > supreme deity of each of the pAramyavAda traditions, i.e., with Shiva > in Shaivism and with Vishnu in Vaishnavism. At another level, > the distinction between Brahman and Is'vara is taken into account and > which form of Vishnu (in Vaishnavism) or Shiva (in Shaivism) is to be > taken as Brahman and which form of Vishnu (in Vaishnavism) or Shiva > (in Shaivism) is to be taken as Is'vara is discussed. > > 6. Dr Ganesan is clearly taking a Shaivite position by saying that the > Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is to be taken as Shiva and > any argument saying that the Upanishadic doctrinal category of > Is'vara is to be taken as Vishnu could look to be Vaishnavite to him. > > I don't think you are trying to take a Vaishnavite position here, are you? > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov > > wrote: > > Dear Ganesan, > > As for the popularity of the Gita before Sankara, he himself in > his introduction to the commentary says that the work has been > explained many times before him, word by word and sentence by > sentence. See also Nakamura's "A History of Early Vedanta > Philosophy," Vol. 2. > > Aleksandar > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:45 AM, Dr. T. Ganesan > > wrote: > > > Samkara, Vachaspatimisra, etc. all belong to 8th century; > whereas my point is Patanjali, Kalidasa are all much earlier > to them. As mentioned in the earlier post, beginning from > Svetasvataropanishad (which is indisputably one of the > earliest Upanishad-s), Kaivalyopanishad, Atharvasikhaa, > Atharvasiras, (where the words ISAna, ISa are also used) and > in the Amarakosa, also one of the earliest Kosa-s, Ishvara > denotes only Siva. > > Note the Amarakosa passage: > > ?ambhur_??a?_ pa?upati? ?iva? ??l? mah??vara? . > > _??vara? _?arva _???na?_ ?a?kara?candra??khara?. > > > > The period of BhagavadgItA as we have it now, cannot be so > earlier or contemporaneous with Patanjali or Kalidasa. And, > definitely BG has been inspired by the Svetasvataropanishad > for its stress on Bhakti. > > Samkara appears to be mostly leaning towards VishNubhakti; it > is is very much evident in many of his interpretations and > comments in the BhagavadgiitA: at BG II.51, VI.31,Samkara > states the liberated state as ?the supreme state of Vishnu? > (padam paramam vishnoH); in BG XIII.18, he clearly identifies > paramAtmA with VAsudeva. > > > Ganesan > > > > > > > On 28-04-2016 05:40, Elliot Stern wrote: >> V?caspatimi?ra, generally understood to favor ?iva, >> acknowledges that adherents of the P?ta?jalayoga??stram >> consider Vi??u to be their ??vara. He says, in concluding his >> comment on ?dividv?nnirm??acittamadhi??h?ya >> k?ru?y?dbhagav?nparamar?ir?sur?ya jij??sam?n?ya tantra? >> prov?ca (yogabh??yam to yogas?tram 1.25): >> >> sa eve?vara ?dividv?nkapilo vi??urna<:> svayambh?riti >> bh?va?~| sv?yambhuv?n?? tv??vara iti bh?va?~| >> >> James Haughton Woods translates this as: [The reply would be >> that] this same ??vara, the First Knower, the Self-existent >> Vishnu [is] Kapila. "But [He is] the ??vara of those >> descended from the Self-existent." This is the point. >> Note that V?caspati frequently refers to adherents of the >> P?ta?jalayoga??stram as sv?yambhuva? (for example, in >> ny?yaka?ik?). >> >> Elliot M. Stern >> 552 South 48th Street >> Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >> United States of America >> telephone: 215-747-6204 >> mobile: 267-240-8418 >> emstern at verizon.net >> >>> On 27 Apr 2016, at 05:28, Dr. T. Ganesan >>> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell >>> > >>> wrote: >>>> T/he ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes >>>> on a more sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as >>>> //s?an?kara-pu?janam? in the //?ivayogad?pik?//. /// >>> >>> My observation on this point is: >>> Sankarapuujanam need be taken as 'a sectarian flavour'. For, >>> Isvara denotes only Siva as we find in all the Upanishads >>> and other texts; Svetasvataropanishad repeats this word >>> denoting Siva many times and it can not be interpreted in >>> any other way. >>> >>> As Kalidasa says in the invocatory verse of his drama, >>> Vikramorvasiyam, >>> >>> ved?nte?u yam?hurekapuru?a?vy?pya sthita?rodas? / >>> >>> yasminn??vara ityananyavi?aya??abdo yath?rth?k?ara?/ >>> >>> >>> Isvara denotes only Siva from the early period. Kalidasa is >>> of the firm view that the entire Vedanta corpus (ved?nte?u) >>> proclaims Siva to be the highest Reality (puru?a) that >>> pervades all the universe. Kalidasa and Patanjali definitely >>> belong to very early period. Thus by ??v?ra-pra?idh?na it is >>> fully plausible and also possible, that Patanjali meant only >>> worship of Siva. And, worshipping a supreme God need not be >>> interpreted as ''sectarian''. One cannot ''worship'' a >>> supreme reality which is nirguna. >>> >>> >>> Ganesan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 26-04-2016 21:53, Rafal Kleczek wrote: >>>> Thank you very much for your observations. I have not been >>>> aware of the variations on the concept of yama/niyama in >>>> Puranas and later Yogic texts, it is most interesting. >>>> The subject of difference in "niyama" regulations for >>>> ascetics at different stages in Kau??inya's theory is quite >>>> interesting. Kau??inya himself considers it a peculiar >>>> trait of the system, or scripture ("tantra"). At the same >>>> time, a similar differentiation of niyama rules seems to be >>>> accepted by some early Naiy?yikas, who otherwise seem to >>>> follow quite closely the theory of Pata?jali (with regard >>>> to the practice of Yoga). >>>> Even though it seems true, that Ny?ya came under influence >>>> of P??upata authors at some point, this idea of >>>> differentiation of niyamas is hinted at even in >>>> V?tsy?yana's Bh??ya--which was written too early to speak >>>> about P??upata influence, I think. Hence the search for >>>> other possible sources of this peculiar variation. >>>> With best wishes, >>>> Rafal >>>> >>>> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Rafal, >>>> >>>> Later medieval tantric and Ha?hayoga treatises >>>> sometimes include both 10 yamas and 10 niyamas. For >>>> example, Chapter 25 of the /S?a?rada?//tilakatantra/, the >>>> /?ivayogad?pik?/, /Yogayaj??valkya/, and many others ? >>>> and here, I imagine, particularly for the ?aiva texts, >>>> they might be drawing from the earlier P??upata yoga >>>> traditions. >>>> >>>> As always, across these yoga texts and traditions, >>>> there is fluidity and malleability, but they seem to >>>> all draw from a shared yama-niyama palette, if you >>>> will. The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, >>>> often takes on a more sectarian flavor in the later >>>> texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? in the /?ivayogad?pik?/. >>>> >>>> Yet, often the medieval yoga texts appear to >>>> explicitly omit them, such as Sv?tm?r?ma?s >>>> /Ha?haprad?pik?/ (although a later 10-chapter version >>>> of this text does include yamas and niyamas), and thus >>>> we are left to speculate on their optionality. Perhaps >>>> they were left to be filled in by a guru, or elsewhere >>>> from a sectarian tradition, or were in fact left out of >>>> yogic praxis entirely (although I doubt this). But I >>>> think it?s safe to say if they are included in a >>>> prescriptive yoga text, they were not considered >>>> optional for that author, but rather par for the >>>> course. This is most clear in the PY? and its >>>> commentaries, as Prof. Bryant astutely notes, but I >>>> think also holds for the later medieval texts as well. >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> >>>> Seth >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> *Seth D. Powell* >>>> /Doctoral Student/ >>>> Committee on the Study of Religion >>>> Harvard University >>>> >>>> /ATG Student Consultant/ >>>> Academic Technology Group (ATG) >>>> Harvard University Information Technology >>>> >>>> *p*707 494 4721 >>>> *e*sethpowell at g.harvard.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Apr 26, 2016, at 8:02 AM, edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama >>>>>> regulations to be >>>>>> permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, >>>>>> depending on time, place, >>>>>> etc.? Is it a common understanding of the division >>>>>> between yama and niyama >>>>>> among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches of >>>>>> ??aivism? >>>>> >>>>> I don't recall reading this in any YS commentary. It >>>>> probably comes from >>>>> the idea that it is after the yama verse that >>>>> Patanjali stresses (with >>>>> uncharacteristic emphasis, one might add, both in >>>>> terms of his own overall >>>>> tone, and in terms of the sutra penchant for >>>>> non-repetition or >>>>> redundancy), that they are inviolable (i.e. he chose >>>>> not to state this >>>>> after the niyama verse which follows the yama verse). >>>>> However, 3 of the >>>>> niyamas are listed under kriya yoga in the opening >>>>> verse of chapter 2, so, >>>>> given they are repeated again in the astanga section >>>>> there is no sense in >>>>> the YS tradition that they are optional. >>>>> >>>>>> 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama >>>>>> regulations? >>>>> >>>>> The Bhagavata Purana has 10 yamas. If the Pasupata >>>>> texts have 10, I would >>>>> probably search the Siva, Skandha or Linga puranas for >>>>> precedents. >>>>> >>>>> With best wishes, Edwin Bryant. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 13:55:17 2016 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 14:55:17 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary Co-Authors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Life as one of of Monier-Williams? assistants may not have been entirely a bed of roses. Please raise a glass to the unfortunate Dr Sch?nberg, whom I can?t help thinking of as the Bob Cratchett of Indology: > He was succeeded by the late Dr. Sch?nberg (a pupil of the late Professor B?hler), who came to me in a condition of great physical weakness, and whose assistance only extended from May 20, 1884, to July 19, 1885, when he left me to die. He was a good scholar, and a good worker, but impatient of supervision, and, despite my vigilance, I found it impossible to guard against a few errors of omission and commission due to the rapid impairment of his powers. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK > On 29 Apr 2016, at 10:26, Artur Karp wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Artur Karp > > Date: 2016-04-29 11:18 GMT+02:00 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary Co-Authors > To: Klaus Karttunen > > > > Thanks for that clarification. > > But, dear Klaus, I still tend to have doubts. Has M-W's correspondence been checked? Have M-W Indian travels itineraries been checked? The lists of people he visited collated? > > M-W reminisces (p. VII): "[...] on each occasion I met to my surprise with learned and thoughtful natives [...] able and willing [...] to explain difficult points in their languages, literatures, religions , and philosophies." > > And - even if not M-W himself, his other Western cooperators/contributors must have had Indian assistants, at some or other time of their professional careers as Indologists. > > ----------------------------- > > I can see the topic has undergone a split. > > Regards, > > Artur K. > > > > > > 2016-04-29 10:46 GMT+02:00 Klaus Karttunen >: > It was noted by several contemporary critics. He even copies some of the misprints appearing in the Peterburg dictionary. But this was the first edition of Monier Williams (1872). The second edition (1899) was completely revised and in this he was helped by several assistants and colleagues ? all mentioned at the end of his introduction. He visited India three times, but never lived there, and there were no pandits in Oxford. > > Best, > Klaus > > Klaus Karttunen > South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies > Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures > PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) > 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND > Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418 > Fax +358-(0)2941 22094 > Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi > > > > > > >> On 29 Apr 2016, at 11:37, Krishnaprasad G > wrote: >> >> I noticed, he just translated ( based on) Kleines Petersburger Woerterbuch (Boehtlingk) Sanskrit-German Dictionary (one can easily verify this) >> >> also he mentiones Radhakanta Dev who is an editor of Shabdakalpadruma >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Artur Karp > wrote: >> Sir Monier Monier-Williams, M.A., K.C.I.E., pays due tribute to his Western contributors. But I do not find in his Dictionary any mention of his Indian contributors' input - no list of Pandits who worked for him - without them, without their immense knowledge, his Opus Magnum would have never appeared in print. >> >> I can only wish that someone with access to M-W's working archive would find documents re M-W's Indian employees and publish their names, more: using Indian archive materials - their full biograms. >> >> They deserve to be finally brought out of that area of shadow surrounding colonial Indology. >> >> Regards, >> >> Artur Karp >> >> University of Warsaw (emeritus) >> >> Poland >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.hartzell at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 16:26:56 2016 From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 12:26:56 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary Co-Authors In-Reply-To: <20160429105734.65780c6ca95d31eee8d6c7fe@ff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: Dear Lubomir MIght you be able to share with us a pdf of this paper by Ladislav Zgusta? Cheers James On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 4:57 AM, Lubomir Ondracka wrote: > Well, the story of the M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary is much more > complex. It is described in details by Ladislav Zgusta in his paper > "Copying in Lexicography: Monier-Williams Sanskrit Dictionary and Other > Cases (Dvaiko?yam)", Lexicographica 4 (1988): 145-173. > > LO > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:07:51 +0530 > Krishnaprasad G wrote: > > > I noticed, he just translated ( based on) Kleines Petersburger > Woerterbuch > > (Boehtlingk) *Sanskrit*- > > > > *German Dictionary (one can easily verify this)* > > > > > > > > *also he mentiones Radhakanta Dev who is an editor of Shabdakalpadruma* > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > > > > > Sir Monier Monier-Williams, M.A., K.C.I.E., pays due tribute to his > > > Western contributors. But I do not find in his Dictionary any mention > of > > > his Indian contributors' input - no list of Pandits who worked for > him - > > > without them, without their immense knowledge, his Opus Magnum would > have > > > never appeared in print. > > > > > > I can only wish that someone with access to M-W's working archive would > > > find documents re M-W's Indian employees and publish their names, more: > > > using Indian archive materials - their full biograms. > > > > > > They deserve to be finally brought out of that area of shadow > surrounding > > > colonial Indology. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Artur Karp > > > > > > University of Warsaw (emeritus) > > > > > > Poland > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > > committee) > > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or > > > unsubscribe) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- James Hartzell, PhD(2x) Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) The University of Trento, Italy and Center for Buddhist Studies Columbia Universtiy, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Fri Apr 29 16:40:07 2016 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 18:40:07 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary Co-Authors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20160429184007.512974defbea185b56beef93@ff.cuni.cz> Sure, here it is: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxne4hxeyj7RSXR3X2wxamNWZlk Lubomir On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:26:56 -0400 James Hartzell wrote: > Dear Lubomir > > MIght you be able to share with us a pdf of this paper by Ladislav Zgusta? > > Cheers > James > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 4:57 AM, Lubomir Ondracka > wrote: > > > Well, the story of the M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary is much more > > complex. It is described in details by Ladislav Zgusta in his paper > > "Copying in Lexicography: Monier-Williams Sanskrit Dictionary and Other > > Cases (Dvaiko?yam)", Lexicographica 4 (1988): 145-173. > > > > LO > > > > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:07:51 +0530 > > Krishnaprasad G wrote: > > > > > I noticed, he just translated ( based on) Kleines Petersburger > > Woerterbuch > > > (Boehtlingk) *Sanskrit*- > > > > > > *German Dictionary (one can easily verify this)* > > > > > > > > > > > > *also he mentiones Radhakanta Dev who is an editor of Shabdakalpadruma* > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > > > > > > > Sir Monier Monier-Williams, M.A., K.C.I.E., pays due tribute to his > > > > Western contributors. But I do not find in his Dictionary any mention > > of > > > > his Indian contributors' input - no list of Pandits who worked for > > him - > > > > without them, without their immense knowledge, his Opus Magnum would > > have > > > > never appeared in print. > > > > > > > > I can only wish that someone with access to M-W's working archive would > > > > find documents re M-W's Indian employees and publish their names, more: > > > > using Indian archive materials - their full biograms. > > > > > > > > They deserve to be finally brought out of that area of shadow > > surrounding > > > > colonial Indology. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Artur Karp > > > > > > > > University of Warsaw (emeritus) > > > > > > > > Poland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > > > committee) > > > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > > or > > > > unsubscribe) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > > unsubscribe) > > > > > > -- > James Hartzell, PhD(2x) > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) > The University of Trento, Italy > and > Center for Buddhist Studies > Columbia Universtiy, USA From Johannes.Bronkhorst at unil.ch Fri Apr 29 16:51:39 2016 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at unil.ch (Johannes Bronkhorst) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 16:51:39 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request Message-ID: <61847894-5F4D-459C-A08B-BA6D2382BC0F@unil.ch> Dear friends and colleagues, A friend asked me to post the following question: >From Amy Heller (tibetologist): I am currently studying a 408 page 11th-12th century Tibetan Prajnaparamita from Tholing whose page numbering does not conform to the specifics of W Tibetan manuscripts - there are many "small" aberrant details , although the numbering is on the whole legible. A colleague suggested to me that this is a reflection, perhaps, of an Indian tradition to conceal accurate numbering from the eyes of infidels, presumably in vigor in N India, ca 10th-12th c (in Hindu and Buddhist circles) to conceal from potential Muslim eyes?? I asked an Indian friend (curator in an art museum) who did not know of this tradition at all, nor was I aware of it. Is this spurious or genuine? Feedback would be most appreciated, thanks! Johannes Bronkhorst From andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu Fri Apr 29 16:57:32 2016 From: andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu (Andrew Nicholson) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 12:57:32 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_South_Asia_edition_of_Revista_cient=C3=ADfica_Guillermo_de_Ockham?= Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I would like to draw your attention to the most recent volume of the Revista cient?fica Guillermo de Ockham, a special edition on South Asia that includes articles by Claus Oetke, Johannes Bronkhorst, Adriano Aprigliano, and me, among others. The journal publishes articles in English, Spanish, and Portuguese. You'll find a link and table of contents below. All the best, Andrew ------------------ http://revistas.usb.edu.co/index.php/GuillermoOckham/issue/view/215 Tabla de contenidos Original papers Dar?ana, Philosophy and Religion in Pre-modern India Ramkrishna Bhattacharya Is the section of verses 1-29 in V?kyapad?ya III.3 based on a sound theoretical motivation? Claus Oetke Who were the C?rv?kas? Johannes Bronkhorst Bhart?prapa?ca and the Eight States of Brahman Ivan Andrijani? A Gram?tica como instrumento de conhecimento do real no V?kyapad?ya de Bhartr?hari: breve coment?rio a Vp I.1-12 Adriano Aprigliano La cuesti?n de la identidad Nath: Consideraciones sobre una orden de Yoguis Adri?n Mu?oz La di?spora india, su relaci?n con el pa?s de origen y residencia: Panorama de los estudios realizados L?a Rodr?guez de la Vega R?ja?ekhara y la imaginaci?n receptora ?scar Figueroa Algunos problemas en torno a la noci?n de s?nscrito cl?sico Gabriela M?ller, Ver?nica Orqueda Viudas en la India. De la Antig?edad a nuestros d?as Rosal?a C. Vofchuk Frontiers Orientalismo, Interpreta??o, e o Estudo da Filosofia Indiana no Ocidente Andrew J. Nicholson Profiles De Budas y Bodhisattvas: homenaje a Fernando Tola Mendoza L?a Rodriguez de la Vega Reviews Da palavra (V?kyapad?ya) Lucas Nascimento Machado Andrew J. Nicholson Associate Professor Graduate Studies Director Asian & Asian American Studies Stony Brook University Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343 (631) 632-4030 http://philosophicalrasika.com/ From uskokov at uchicago.edu Fri Apr 29 17:45:17 2016 From: uskokov at uchicago.edu (Aleksandar Uskokov) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 12:45:17 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: <5722EDFC.4@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: Dear Ganesan, My point was not to dispute that identification, but that from Siva=Isvara in Svetasvatara and Kalidasa it does not follow that Isvara=Siva in Patanjali, because the term has been variously associated (there is no avyabhicara between the two). Again, Jan Gonda's essay on the idea of Isvara is a most worthwhile reading, Yours Aleksandar On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 12:15 AM, Dr. T. Ganesan wrote: > > Dear Aleksander, > If you * were just taking exception with the identification Isvara = Siva > in the Svetasvatara = in all Upanisads = in Kalidasa = ergo in Patanjali as > his contemporary,* > > then, what on earth does the word Isvara denote in the > Svetasvataropanishad and in the woks of Kalidasa ?? > > > Ganesan > > > > > > > > > > On 28-04-2016 21:10, Aleksandar Uskokov wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > No, nothing of that kind. I was just taking exception with the > identification Isvara = Siva in the Svetasvatara = in all Upanisads = in > Kalidasa = ergo in Patanjali as his contemporary. The idea of Isvara, as > your points well illustrate, is too rich for such a simple identification. > > Best > Aleksandar > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> 1. When we bring Vishnu into this discussion, we need to clarify whether >> we are talking about the Vedic concepts such as Narayana and Vishnu as >> distinct from the Puranic Vishnu/ Narayana , with attributes such as the >> vaikunThavAsa etc. >> >> 2. The Upanishadic concept of Is'vara , like the one with identical name >> in nyAya and other dars'anas is not a deity neither Vedic nor Puranic but a >> doctrinal category. Since, unlike in the case of the other dars'anas, in >> Upanishads, there is a scope for vEdArtha upabrmhaNa link with Puranas >> or Veda-Vedanta relation with the Vedas , the Upanishadic doctrinal >> category of Is'vara is open to the discussion of whether that can be viewed >> as Shiva of the Puranas or Vishnu of the Vedas or Narayana of the Vedas or >> Vishnu / Narayana of the Puranas. >> >> 3. In common parlance and in many textual usages too the word Is'vara >> being taken as a synonym of Shiva is in abundance. But those can not be >> mixed with the discussion of what the Upanishadic doctrinal category >> of Is'vara is equivalent to in among the Vedic or Puranic deities. >> >> 4. The Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is discussed as a part >> of a group of doctrinal categories consisting of Brahman, Is'vara and Jiva. >> >> 5. At a certain level, Brahman and Is'vara are both equated with the >> supreme deity of each of the pAramyavAda traditions, i.e., with Shiva in >> Shaivism and with Vishnu in Vaishnavism. At another level, the distinction >> between Brahman and Is'vara is taken into account and which form of Vishnu >> (in Vaishnavism) or Shiva (in Shaivism) is to be taken as Brahman and which >> form of Vishnu (in Vaishnavism) or Shiva (in Shaivism) is to be taken as >> Is'vara is discussed. >> >> 6. Dr Ganesan is clearly taking a Shaivite position by saying that the >> Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is to be taken as Shiva and any >> argument saying that the Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is to >> be taken as Vishnu could look to be Vaishnavite to him. >> >> I don't think you are trying to take a Vaishnavite position here, are you? >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov < >> uskokov at uchicago.edu> wrote: >> >>> Dear Ganesan, >>> >>> As for the popularity of the Gita before Sankara, he himself in his >>> introduction to the commentary says that the work has been explained many >>> times before him, word by word and sentence by sentence. See also >>> Nakamura's "A History of Early Vedanta Philosophy," Vol. 2. >>> >>> Aleksandar >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:45 AM, Dr. T. Ganesan < >>> ganesan at ifpindia.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Samkara, Vachaspatimisra, etc. all belong to 8th century; whereas my >>>> point is Patanjali, Kalidasa are all much earlier to them. As mentioned in >>>> the earlier post, beginning from Svetasvataropanishad (which is >>>> indisputably one of the earliest Upanishad-s), Kaivalyopanishad, >>>> Atharvasikhaa, Atharvasiras, (where the words ISAna, ISa are also used) and >>>> in the Amarakosa, also one of the earliest Kosa-s, Ishvara denotes only >>>> Siva. >>>> >>>> Note the Amarakosa passage: >>>> >>>> >>>> ?ambhur*??a?* pa?upati? ?iva? ??l? mah??vara? . >>>> >>>> * ??vara? *?arva *???na?* ?a?kara?candra??khara?. >>>> >>>> >>>> The period of BhagavadgItA as we have it now, cannot be so earlier or >>>> contemporaneous with Patanjali or Kalidasa. And, definitely BG has been >>>> inspired by the Svetasvataropanishad for its stress on Bhakti. >>>> >>>> Samkara appears to be mostly leaning towards VishNubhakti; it is is >>>> very much evident in many of his interpretations and comments in the >>>> BhagavadgiitA: at BG II.51, VI.31, Samkara states the liberated state >>>> as ? the supreme state of Vishnu? (padam paramam vishnoH); in BG XIII.18, >>>> he clearly identifies paramAtmA with VAsudeva. >>>> >>>> >>>> Ganesan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 28-04-2016 05:40, Elliot Stern wrote: >>>> >>>> V?caspatimi?ra, generally understood to favor ?iva, acknowledges that >>>> adherents of the P?ta?jalayoga??stram consider Vi??u to be their ??vara. He >>>> says, in concluding his comment on ?dividv?nnirm??acittamadhi??h?ya >>>> k?ru?y?dbhagav?nparamar?ir?sur?ya jij??sam?n?ya tantra? prov?ca >>>> (yogabh??yam to yogas?tram 1.25): >>>> >>>> sa eve?vara ?dividv?nkapilo vi??urna<:> svayambh?riti bh?va?~| >>>> sv?yambhuv?n?? tv??vara iti bh?va?~| >>>> >>>> James Haughton Woods translates this as: [The reply would be that] this >>>> same ??vara, the First Knower, the Self-existent Vishnu [is] Kapila. "But >>>> [He is] the ??vara of those descended from the Self-existent." This is the >>>> point. >>>> >>>> Note that V?caspati frequently refers to adherents of the >>>> P?ta?jalayoga??stram as sv?yambhuva? (for example, in ny?yaka?ik?). >>>> >>>> Elliot M. Stern >>>> 552 South 48th Street >>>> Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >>>> United States of America >>>> telephone: 215-747-6204 >>>> mobile: 267-240-8418 >>>> emstern at verizon.net >>>> >>>> On 27 Apr 2016, at 05:28, Dr. T. Ganesan < >>>> ganesan at ifpindia.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell < >>>> sethpowell at g.harvard.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>> T*he ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on a more >>>> sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as **s?an?kara-pu?janam? in >>>> the **?ivayogad?pik?**. * >>>> >>>> >>>> My observation on this point is: >>>> Sankarapuujanam need be taken as 'a sectarian flavour'. For, Isvara >>>> denotes only Siva as we find in all the Upanishads and other texts; >>>> Svetasvataropanishad repeats this word denoting Siva many times and it can >>>> not be interpreted in any other way. >>>> >>>> As Kalidasa says in the invocatory verse of his drama, Vikramorvasiyam, >>>> >>>> ved?nte?u yam?hurekapuru?a? vy?pya sthita? rodas? / >>>> >>>> yasminn??vara ityananyavi?aya? ?abdo yath?rth?k?ara? / >>>> >>>> Isvara denotes only Siva from the early period. Kalidasa is of the firm >>>> view that the entire Vedanta corpus (ved?nte?u) proclaims Siva to be >>>> the highest Reality (puru?a) that pervades all the universe. Kalidasa >>>> and Patanjali definitely belong to very early period. Thus by >>>> ??v?ra-pra?idh?na it is fully plausible and also possible, that >>>> Patanjali meant only worship of Siva. And, worshipping a supreme God need >>>> not be interpreted as ''sectarian''. One cannot ''worship'' a supreme >>>> reality which is nirguna. >>>> >>>> >>>> Ganesan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 26-04-2016 21:53, Rafal Kleczek wrote: >>>> >>>> Thank you very much for your observations. I have not been aware of the >>>> variations on the concept of yama/niyama in Puranas and later Yogic texts, >>>> it is most interesting. >>>> The subject of difference in "niyama" regulations for ascetics at >>>> different stages in Kau??inya's theory is quite interesting. Kau??inya >>>> himself considers it a peculiar trait of the system, or scripture >>>> ("tantra"). At the same time, a similar differentiation of niyama rules >>>> seems to be accepted by some early Naiy?yikas, who otherwise seem to follow >>>> quite closely the theory of Pata?jali (with regard to the practice of Yoga). >>>> Even though it seems true, that Ny?ya came under influence of P??upata >>>> authors at some point, this idea of differentiation of niyamas is hinted at >>>> even in V?tsy?yana's Bh??ya--which was written too early to speak about >>>> P??upata influence, I think. Hence the search for other possible sources of >>>> this peculiar variation. >>>> With best wishes, >>>> Rafal >>>> >>>> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell < >>>> sethpowell at g.harvard.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Rafal, >>>>> >>>>> Later medieval tantric and Ha?hayoga treatises sometimes include both >>>>> 10 yamas and 10 niyamas. For example, Chapter 25 of the *S?a?rada?* >>>>> *tilakatantra*, the *?ivayogad?pik?*, *Yogayaj??valkya*, and many >>>>> others ? and here, I imagine, particularly for the ?aiva texts, they might >>>>> be drawing from the earlier P??upata yoga traditions. >>>>> >>>>> As always, across these yoga texts and traditions, there is fluidity >>>>> and malleability, but they seem to all draw from a shared >>>>> yama-niyama palette, if you will. The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for >>>>> example, often takes on a more sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? >>>>> in the *?ivayogad?pik?*. >>>>> >>>>> Yet, often the medieval yoga texts appear to explicitly omit them, >>>>> such as Sv?tm?r?ma?s *Ha?haprad?pik?* (although a later >>>>> 10-chapter version of this text does include yamas and niyamas), and thus >>>>> we are left to speculate on their optionality. Perhaps they were left to be >>>>> filled in by a guru, or elsewhere from a sectarian tradition, or were in >>>>> fact left out of yogic praxis entirely (although I doubt this). But I think >>>>> it?s safe to say if they are included in a prescriptive yoga text, they >>>>> were not considered optional for that author, but rather par for the >>>>> course. This is most clear in the PY? and its commentaries, as Prof. Bryant >>>>> astutely notes, but I think also holds for the later medieval texts as well. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> >>>>> Seth >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> >>>>> *Seth D. Powell* >>>>> *Doctoral Student* >>>>> Committee on the Study of Religion >>>>> Harvard University >>>>> >>>>> *ATG Student Consultant* >>>>> Academic Technology Group (ATG) >>>>> Harvard University Information Technology >>>>> >>>>> *p* 707 494 4721 >>>>> *e* sethpowell at g.harvard.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 26, 2016, at 8:02 AM, >>>>> edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama regulations to be >>>>> permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, depending on time, >>>>> place, >>>>> etc.? Is it a common understanding of the division between yama and >>>>> niyama >>>>> among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches of ??aivism? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't recall reading this in any YS commentary. It probably comes >>>>> from >>>>> the idea that it is after the yama verse that Patanjali stresses (with >>>>> uncharacteristic emphasis, one might add, both in terms of his own >>>>> overall >>>>> tone, and in terms of the sutra penchant for non-repetition or >>>>> redundancy), that they are inviolable (i.e. he chose not to state this >>>>> after the niyama verse which follows the yama verse). However, 3 of the >>>>> niyamas are listed under kriya yoga in the opening verse of chapter 2, >>>>> so, >>>>> given they are repeated again in the astanga section there is no sense >>>>> in >>>>> the YS tradition that they are optional. >>>>> >>>>> 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama regulations? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The Bhagavata Purana has 10 yamas. If the Pasupata texts have 10, I >>>>> would >>>>> probably search the Siva, Skandha or Linga puranas for precedents. >>>>> >>>>> With best wishes, Edwin Bryant. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.hartzell at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 18:20:14 2016 From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 14:20:14 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary Co-Authors In-Reply-To: <20160429184007.512974defbea185b56beef93@ff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: Great, thanks On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Lubomir Ondracka wrote: > Sure, here it is: > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxne4hxeyj7RSXR3X2wxamNWZlk > > Lubomir > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:26:56 -0400 > James Hartzell wrote: > > > Dear Lubomir > > > > MIght you be able to share with us a pdf of this paper by Ladislav > Zgusta? > > > > Cheers > > James > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 4:57 AM, Lubomir Ondracka > > wrote: > > > > > Well, the story of the M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary is much more > > > complex. It is described in details by Ladislav Zgusta in his paper > > > "Copying in Lexicography: Monier-Williams Sanskrit Dictionary and Other > > > Cases (Dvaiko?yam)", Lexicographica 4 (1988): 145-173. > > > > > > LO > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:07:51 +0530 > > > Krishnaprasad G wrote: > > > > > > > I noticed, he just translated ( based on) Kleines Petersburger > > > Woerterbuch > > > > (Boehtlingk) *Sanskrit*- > > > > > > > > *German Dictionary (one can easily verify this)* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *also he mentiones Radhakanta Dev who is an editor of > Shabdakalpadruma* > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > > > > > > > > > Sir Monier Monier-Williams, M.A., K.C.I.E., pays due tribute to his > > > > > Western contributors. But I do not find in his Dictionary any > mention > > > of > > > > > his Indian contributors' input - no list of Pandits who worked for > > > him - > > > > > without them, without their immense knowledge, his Opus Magnum > would > > > have > > > > > never appeared in print. > > > > > > > > > > I can only wish that someone with access to M-W's working archive > would > > > > > find documents re M-W's Indian employees and publish their names, > more: > > > > > using Indian archive materials - their full biograms. > > > > > > > > > > They deserve to be finally brought out of that area of shadow > > > surrounding > > > > > colonial Indology. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Artur Karp > > > > > > > > > > University of Warsaw (emeritus) > > > > > > > > > > Poland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > > > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > > > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > > > > committee) > > > > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > options > > > or > > > > > unsubscribe) > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > > committee) > > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or > > > unsubscribe) > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > James Hartzell, PhD(2x) > > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) > > The University of Trento, Italy > > and > > Center for Buddhist Studies > > Columbia Universtiy, USA > -- James Hartzell, PhD(2x) Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) The University of Trento, Italy and Center for Buddhist Studies Columbia Universtiy, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 19:07:29 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 16 00:37:29 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Yama/niyama_in_P=C3=84_=C3=85=E2=80=BAupata_and_Yoga?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dr Ganesan, The word Shiva in Svetashvatara Upanishad is understood as a descriptive term with meanings such as benevolent, blissful etc. Do you want to see that word as referring to Shiva, with the attributes such as Kailaasavaasa, jaTaajooTadhaaraNa, naagaabharaNadhaaraNa etc. ? If yes, which part of the text has support to such view? On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 11:15 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov wrote: > Dear Ganesan, > > My point was not to dispute that identification, but that from Siva=Isvara > in Svetasvatara and Kalidasa it does not follow that Isvara=Siva in > Patanjali, because the term has been variously associated (there is no > avyabhicara between the two). Again, Jan Gonda's essay on the idea of > Isvara is a most worthwhile reading, > > Yours > Aleksandar > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 12:15 AM, Dr. T. Ganesan > wrote: > >> >> Dear Aleksander, >> If you * were just taking exception with the identification Isvara = >> Siva in the Svetasvatara = in all Upanisads = in Kalidasa = ergo in >> Patanjali as his contemporary,* >> >> then, what on earth does the word Isvara denote in the >> Svetasvataropanishad and in the woks of Kalidasa ?? >> >> >> Ganesan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 28-04-2016 21:10, Aleksandar Uskokov wrote: >> >> Dear Nagaraj, >> >> No, nothing of that kind. I was just taking exception with the >> identification Isvara = Siva in the Svetasvatara = in all Upanisads = in >> Kalidasa = ergo in Patanjali as his contemporary. The idea of Isvara, as >> your points well illustrate, is too rich for such a simple identification. >> >> Best >> Aleksandar >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > > wrote: >> >>> 1. When we bring Vishnu into this discussion, we need to clarify >>> whether we are talking about the Vedic concepts such as Narayana and Vishnu >>> as distinct from the Puranic Vishnu/ Narayana , with attributes such as >>> the vaikunThavAsa etc. >>> >>> 2. The Upanishadic concept of Is'vara , like the one with identical >>> name in nyAya and other dars'anas is not a deity neither Vedic nor Puranic >>> but a doctrinal category. Since, unlike in the case of the other dars'anas, >>> in Upanishads, there is a scope for vEdArtha upabrmhaNa link with Puranas >>> or Veda-Vedanta relation with the Vedas , the Upanishadic doctrinal >>> category of Is'vara is open to the discussion of whether that can be viewed >>> as Shiva of the Puranas or Vishnu of the Vedas or Narayana of the Vedas or >>> Vishnu / Narayana of the Puranas. >>> >>> 3. In common parlance and in many textual usages too the word Is'vara >>> being taken as a synonym of Shiva is in abundance. But those can not be >>> mixed with the discussion of what the Upanishadic doctrinal category >>> of Is'vara is equivalent to in among the Vedic or Puranic deities. >>> >>> 4. The Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is discussed as a part >>> of a group of doctrinal categories consisting of Brahman, Is'vara and Jiva. >>> >>> 5. At a certain level, Brahman and Is'vara are both equated with the >>> supreme deity of each of the pAramyavAda traditions, i.e., with Shiva in >>> Shaivism and with Vishnu in Vaishnavism. At another level, the distinction >>> between Brahman and Is'vara is taken into account and which form of Vishnu >>> (in Vaishnavism) or Shiva (in Shaivism) is to be taken as Brahman and which >>> form of Vishnu (in Vaishnavism) or Shiva (in Shaivism) is to be taken as >>> Is'vara is discussed. >>> >>> 6. Dr Ganesan is clearly taking a Shaivite position by saying that the >>> Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is to be taken as Shiva and any >>> argument saying that the Upanishadic doctrinal category of Is'vara is to >>> be taken as Vishnu could look to be Vaishnavite to him. >>> >>> I don't think you are trying to take a Vaishnavite position here, are >>> you? >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov < >>> uskokov at uchicago.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Ganesan, >>>> >>>> As for the popularity of the Gita before Sankara, he himself in his >>>> introduction to the commentary says that the work has been explained many >>>> times before him, word by word and sentence by sentence. See also >>>> Nakamura's "A History of Early Vedanta Philosophy," Vol. 2. >>>> >>>> Aleksandar >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:45 AM, Dr. T. Ganesan < >>>> ganesan at ifpindia.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Samkara, Vachaspatimisra, etc. all belong to 8th century; whereas my >>>>> point is Patanjali, Kalidasa are all much earlier to them. As mentioned in >>>>> the earlier post, beginning from Svetasvataropanishad (which is >>>>> indisputably one of the earliest Upanishad-s), Kaivalyopanishad, >>>>> Atharvasikhaa, Atharvasiras, (where the words ISAna, ISa are also used) and >>>>> in the Amarakosa, also one of the earliest Kosa-s, Ishvara denotes only >>>>> Siva. >>>>> >>>>> Note the Amarakosa passage: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ?ambhur*??a?* pa?upati? ?iva? ??l? mah??vara? . >>>>> >>>>> * ??vara? *?arva *???na?* ?a?kara?candra??khara?. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The period of BhagavadgItA as we have it now, cannot be so earlier or >>>>> contemporaneous with Patanjali or Kalidasa. And, definitely BG has been >>>>> inspired by the Svetasvataropanishad for its stress on Bhakti. >>>>> >>>>> Samkara appears to be mostly leaning towards VishNubhakti; it is is >>>>> very much evident in many of his interpretations and comments in the >>>>> BhagavadgiitA: at BG II.51, VI.31, Samkara states the liberated state >>>>> as ? the supreme state of Vishnu? (padam paramam vishnoH); in BG XIII.18, >>>>> he clearly identifies paramAtmA with VAsudeva. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ganesan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 28-04-2016 05:40, Elliot Stern wrote: >>>>> >>>>> V?caspatimi?ra, generally understood to favor ?iva, acknowledges that >>>>> adherents of the P?ta?jalayoga??stram consider Vi??u to be their ??vara. He >>>>> says, in concluding his comment on ?dividv?nnirm??acittamadhi??h?ya >>>>> k?ru?y?dbhagav?nparamar?ir?sur?ya jij??sam?n?ya tantra? prov?ca >>>>> (yogabh??yam to yogas?tram 1.25): >>>>> >>>>> sa eve?vara ?dividv?nkapilo vi??urna<:> svayambh?riti bh?va?~| >>>>> sv?yambhuv?n?? tv??vara iti bh?va?~| >>>>> >>>>> James Haughton Woods translates this as: [The reply would be that] >>>>> this same ??vara, the First Knower, the Self-existent Vishnu [is] Kapila. >>>>> "But [He is] the ??vara of those descended from the Self-existent." This is >>>>> the point. >>>>> >>>>> Note that V?caspati frequently refers to adherents of the >>>>> P?ta?jalayoga??stram as sv?yambhuva? (for example, in ny?yaka?ik?). >>>>> >>>>> Elliot M. Stern >>>>> 552 South 48th Street >>>>> Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >>>>> United States of America >>>>> telephone: 215-747-6204 >>>>> mobile: 267-240-8418 >>>>> emstern at verizon.net >>>>> >>>>> On 27 Apr 2016, at 05:28, Dr. T. Ganesan < >>>>> ganesan at ifpindia.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell < >>>>> sethpowell at g.harvard.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> T*he ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for example, often takes on a more >>>>> sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as **s?an?kara-pu?janam? in >>>>> the **?ivayogad?pik?**. * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My observation on this point is: >>>>> Sankarapuujanam need be taken as 'a sectarian flavour'. For, Isvara >>>>> denotes only Siva as we find in all the Upanishads and other texts; >>>>> Svetasvataropanishad repeats this word denoting Siva many times and it can >>>>> not be interpreted in any other way. >>>>> >>>>> As Kalidasa says in the invocatory verse of his drama, >>>>> Vikramorvasiyam, >>>>> >>>>> ved?nte?u yam?hurekapuru?a? vy?pya sthita? rodas? / >>>>> >>>>> yasminn??vara ityananyavi?aya? ?abdo yath?rth?k?ara? / >>>>> >>>>> Isvara denotes only Siva from the early period. Kalidasa is of the >>>>> firm view that the entire Vedanta corpus (ved?nte?u) proclaims Siva >>>>> to be the highest Reality (puru?a) that pervades all the universe. Kalidasa >>>>> and Patanjali definitely belong to very early period. Thus by >>>>> ??v?ra-pra?idh?na it is fully plausible and also possible, that >>>>> Patanjali meant only worship of Siva. And, worshipping a supreme God need >>>>> not be interpreted as ''sectarian''. One cannot ''worship'' a supreme >>>>> reality which is nirguna. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ganesan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 26-04-2016 21:53, Rafal Kleczek wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thank you very much for your observations. I have not been aware of >>>>> the variations on the concept of yama/niyama in Puranas and later Yogic >>>>> texts, it is most interesting. >>>>> The subject of difference in "niyama" regulations for ascetics at >>>>> different stages in Kau??inya's theory is quite interesting. Kau??inya >>>>> himself considers it a peculiar trait of the system, or scripture >>>>> ("tantra"). At the same time, a similar differentiation of niyama rules >>>>> seems to be accepted by some early Naiy?yikas, who otherwise seem to follow >>>>> quite closely the theory of Pata?jali (with regard to the practice of Yoga). >>>>> Even though it seems true, that Ny?ya came under influence of P??upata >>>>> authors at some point, this idea of differentiation of niyamas is hinted at >>>>> even in V?tsy?yana's Bh??ya--which was written too early to speak about >>>>> P??upata influence, I think. Hence the search for other possible sources of >>>>> this peculiar variation. >>>>> With best wishes, >>>>> Rafal >>>>> >>>>> On 26 April 2016 at 20:52, Seth Powell < >>>>> sethpowell at g.harvard.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Rafal, >>>>>> >>>>>> Later medieval tantric and Ha?hayoga treatises sometimes include both >>>>>> 10 yamas and 10 niyamas. For example, Chapter 25 of the *S?a?rada?* >>>>>> *tilakatantra*, the *?ivayogad?pik?*, *Yogayaj??valkya*, and many >>>>>> others ? and here, I imagine, particularly for the ?aiva texts, they might >>>>>> be drawing from the earlier P??upata yoga traditions. >>>>>> >>>>>> As always, across these yoga texts and traditions, there is fluidity >>>>>> and malleability, but they seem to all draw from a shared >>>>>> yama-niyama palette, if you will. The ??v?ra-pra?idh?na of the PY?, for >>>>>> example, often takes on a more sectarian flavor in the later texts, such as s?an?kara-pu?janam? >>>>>> in the *?ivayogad?pik?*. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yet, often the medieval yoga texts appear to explicitly omit them, >>>>>> such as Sv?tm?r?ma?s *Ha?haprad?pik?* (although a later >>>>>> 10-chapter version of this text does include yamas and niyamas), and thus >>>>>> we are left to speculate on their optionality. Perhaps they were left to be >>>>>> filled in by a guru, or elsewhere from a sectarian tradition, or were in >>>>>> fact left out of yogic praxis entirely (although I doubt this). But I think >>>>>> it?s safe to say if they are included in a prescriptive yoga text, they >>>>>> were not considered optional for that author, but rather par for the >>>>>> course. This is most clear in the PY? and its commentaries, as Prof. Bryant >>>>>> astutely notes, but I think also holds for the later medieval texts as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best wishes, >>>>>> >>>>>> Seth >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> >>>>>> *Seth D. Powell* >>>>>> *Doctoral Student* >>>>>> Committee on the Study of Religion >>>>>> Harvard University >>>>>> >>>>>> *ATG Student Consultant* >>>>>> Academic Technology Group (ATG) >>>>>> Harvard University Information Technology >>>>>> >>>>>> *p* 707 494 4721 >>>>>> *e* sethpowell at g.harvard.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 26, 2016, at 8:02 AM, >>>>>> edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Are there other traditions which consider yama regulations to be >>>>>> permanent, and niyamas to be subject to change, depending on time, >>>>>> place, >>>>>> etc.? Is it a common understanding of the division between yama and >>>>>> niyama >>>>>> among philosophers of Yoga, or in other branches of ??aivism? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't recall reading this in any YS commentary. It probably comes >>>>>> from >>>>>> the idea that it is after the yama verse that Patanjali stresses (with >>>>>> uncharacteristic emphasis, one might add, both in terms of his own >>>>>> overall >>>>>> tone, and in terms of the sutra penchant for non-repetition or >>>>>> redundancy), that they are inviolable (i.e. he chose not to state this >>>>>> after the niyama verse which follows the yama verse). However, 3 of >>>>>> the >>>>>> niyamas are listed under kriya yoga in the opening verse of chapter >>>>>> 2, so, >>>>>> given they are repeated again in the astanga section there is no >>>>>> sense in >>>>>> the YS tradition that they are optional. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Are there other traditions accepting ten yama regulations? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The Bhagavata Purana has 10 yamas. If the Pasupata texts have 10, I >>>>>> would >>>>>> probably search the Siva, Skandha or Linga puranas for precedents. >>>>>> >>>>>> With best wishes, Edwin Bryant. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 21:50:17 2016 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 23:50:17 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09South_Asia_edition_of_Revista_cient=C3=ADfica_Guillermo_de_Ockham?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: With many thanks to Andrew, it really should not be overlooked, among the other fascinating looking contributions, that there is a short appreciation of Fernando Tola, a scholar who because of the circumstances of his career has been much less part of the mainstream than he should have been. i think that even without Spanish (mine is basically restricted to knowing how to order a beer) one can still understand enough of the survey to appreciate Tola as a scholar. I have the good fortune to know him and Carmen Dagonetti personally, and you could not hope to meet two more lovely human beings. So, even not able to read Spanish, you might think of giving the few pages a look. Jonathan On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Andrew Nicholson < andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu> wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I would like to draw your attention to the most recent volume of the > Revista cient?fica Guillermo de Ockham, a special edition on South > Asia that includes articles by Claus Oetke, Johannes Bronkhorst, > Adriano Aprigliano, and me, among others. The journal publishes > articles in English, Spanish, and Portuguese. > > You'll find a link and table of contents below. > > All the best, > Andrew > > ------------------ > > > http://revistas.usb.edu.co/index.php/GuillermoOckham/issue/view/215 > > Tabla de contenidos > > Original papers > > Dar?ana, Philosophy and Religion in Pre-modern India > Ramkrishna Bhattacharya > > Is the section of verses 1-29 in V?kyapad?ya III.3 based on a sound > theoretical motivation? > Claus Oetke > > Who were the C?rv?kas? > Johannes Bronkhorst > > Bhart?prapa?ca and the Eight States of Brahman > Ivan Andrijani? > > A Gram?tica como instrumento de conhecimento do real no V?kyapad?ya de > Bhartr?hari: breve coment?rio a Vp I.1-12 > Adriano Aprigliano > > La cuesti?n de la identidad Nath: Consideraciones sobre una orden de Yoguis > Adri?n Mu?oz > > La di?spora india, su relaci?n con el pa?s de origen y residencia: > Panorama de los estudios realizados > L?a Rodr?guez de la Vega > > R?ja?ekhara y la imaginaci?n receptora > ?scar Figueroa > > Algunos problemas en torno a la noci?n de s?nscrito cl?sico > Gabriela M?ller, Ver?nica Orqueda > > Viudas en la India. De la Antig?edad a nuestros d?as > Rosal?a C. Vofchuk > > > Frontiers > > Orientalismo, Interpreta??o, e o Estudo da Filosofia Indiana no Ocidente > Andrew J. Nicholson > > > Profiles > > De Budas y Bodhisattvas: homenaje a Fernando Tola Mendoza > L?a Rodriguez de la Vega > > > Reviews > > Da palavra (V?kyapad?ya) > Lucas Nascimento Machado > > > > > Andrew J. Nicholson > Associate Professor > Graduate Studies Director > Asian & Asian American Studies > Stony Brook University > Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343 > (631) 632-4030 > http://philosophicalrasika.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 22:08:39 2016 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 16:08:39 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] new publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A week after this announcement, this book is still not available at Harvard University Press (you cannot pre-order it there), nor is it available at Amazon.com. They both still show July and August publication dates, respectively. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Self-serving self promotion warning! > > Harvard Oriental Series 81Materials Toward the Study of Vasubandhu?s > *Vi??ik?* (I)Sanskrit and Tibetan Critical Editions of the Verses and > Autocommentary; An English Translation and Annotations > > HARDCOVER > > $30.00 ? ?22.95 ? ?27.00 > > ISBN 9780674970670 > > > The blurb: The ?Twenty Verses on Manifestation-Only? of the Indian > Buddhist philosopher Vasubandhu (c. 350?430?), his *Vi???k?*, is one of > the most important treatises of the Yog?c?ra school. Accompanied by the > author?s own commentary, the text lays out a vision of a ?Buddhist > Idealism? in which even one?s experience of the sufferings of hell is > revealed to be nothing other than the results of working out one?s karma. > Later scholars commented on the work a number of times, in its original > Sanskrit, in Tibetan translation, and in three Chinese versions. > > This book presents an edition and translation of the Sanskrit text of the > core verses, alongside the original author?s commentary, based directly on > the manuscript evidence. This is accompanied by an edition of the canonical > translations of these texts found in the Tibetan Tanjurs, as well as a > ?draft translation? of the verses in Tibetan, found in a manuscript from > Dunhuang. This publication therefore provides the most reliable and > comprehensive philological accounting to date for this fundamental work. > > > The website (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674970670) > says August, but it's published now. > > > very best, Jonathan > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 22:31:19 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 16:31:19 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] From the Mahabharata In-Reply-To: <99DA1FB3-DAD0-4070-9825-766CA8F150B4@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Yes, I grew up with that expression :-) On 29 April 2016 at 01:36, Valerie Roebuck wrote: > In the UK the watchword was FHB (Family Hold Back) if there was perhaps > not quite enough food to go round at a party. > > Valerie Roebuck > Manchester, UK > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 22:36:44 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 16:36:44 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request In-Reply-To: <61847894-5F4D-459C-A08B-BA6D2382BC0F@unil.ch> Message-ID: I have foliated thousands of Sanskrit manuscripts, and while one often encounters errors, I have never encountered anything hinting at a systematic esotericism in the numbering. Mind you, manuscripts from 10-12 century are quite rare, but then one would see traces of the deliberate obfuscation in the apographs. No, I don't think this hypothesis about deliberate concealment is sustainable on the existing evidence. Spurious. ? ?Best, Dominik Wujastyk ? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk* Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity Department of History and Classics University of Alberta, Canada -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adheesh1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 22:51:33 2016 From: adheesh1 at gmail.com (Adheesh Sathaye) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 16 15:51:33 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request In-Reply-To: <61847894-5F4D-459C-A08B-BA6D2382BC0F@unil.ch> Message-ID: <59CCC1D1-EF14-4D7B-84AF-34785874F57F@gmail.com> Dear Johannes, Dominik, et al, It is almost certainly unconnected to the Tibetan case you are investigating, but perhaps the colleague's rather misleading suggestion is harkening to the textual practices of the esoteric Mah?nubh?v community (c. 13th-16th C) in Maharashtra, who, in an attempt to secret themselves mostly from orthodox Brahmin scrutiny (and not ?infidels? or Muslims), invented a number of ciphers to hide their writings from uninitiated eyes. This was a far more sophisticated system of coding than just illegible numbering. for more info, please see Antonio Rigopoulos?s _The Mahanubhavs_ (Firenze, 2005), [introduction available as a PDF here: http://www.fupress.com/archivio/pdf/2317.pdf] or Raeside?s article on ?Sakala lipi? in BSOAS (1970) - https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/613009.pdf All best wishes, Adheesh > On Apr 29, 2016, at 09.51, Johannes Bronkhorst wrote: > > Dear friends and colleagues, > A friend asked me to post the following question: > > From Amy Heller (tibetologist): I am currently studying a 408 page > 11th-12th century Tibetan Prajnaparamita from Tholing whose page numbering > does not conform to the specifics of W Tibetan manuscripts - there are many > "small" aberrant details , although the numbering is on the whole legible. A > colleague suggested to me that this is a reflection, perhaps, of an Indian > tradition to conceal accurate numbering from the eyes of infidels, > presumably in vigor in N India, ca 10th-12th c (in Hindu and Buddhist > circles) to conceal from potential Muslim eyes?? I asked an Indian friend > (curator in an art museum) who did not know of this tradition at all, nor > was I aware of it. Is this spurious or genuine? Feedback would be most > appreciated, thanks! > > Johannes Bronkhorst > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ? Adheesh Sathaye University of British Columbia From franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it Sat Apr 30 07:12:00 2016 From: franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it (Marco Franceschini) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 16 09:12:00 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request In-Reply-To: <61847894-5F4D-459C-A08B-BA6D2382BC0F@unil.ch> Message-ID: <330335F1-D12D-4F36-9581-EB6CB8BF6420@fastwebnet.it> Dear Johannes, although it?s very far from Tibet, it appears that in Kerala a particular letter-numeral systems was used as a ?cryptographic code? through which only the initiated in the system were able to reorder the intentionally jumbled folios of a manuscript. On this, see Renou/Filliozat, L?Inde classique, p. 708. Best wishes, Marco Franceschini ??????????? Fixed-term Researcher University of Bologna Department of History and Cultures via Zamboni 33 - 40126 Bologna - Italy marco.franceschini3 at unibo.it --- Il giorno 29/apr/2016, alle ore 18:51, Johannes Bronkhorst ha scritto: > Dear friends and colleagues, > A friend asked me to post the following question: > > From Amy Heller (tibetologist): I am currently studying a 408 page > 11th-12th century Tibetan Prajnaparamita from Tholing whose page numbering > does not conform to the specifics of W Tibetan manuscripts - there are many > "small" aberrant details , although the numbering is on the whole legible. A > colleague suggested to me that this is a reflection, perhaps, of an Indian > tradition to conceal accurate numbering from the eyes of infidels, > presumably in vigor in N India, ca 10th-12th c (in Hindu and Buddhist > circles) to conceal from potential Muslim eyes?? I asked an Indian friend > (curator in an art museum) who did not know of this tradition at all, nor > was I aware of it. Is this spurious or genuine? Feedback would be most > appreciated, thanks! > > Johannes Bronkhorst > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it Sat Apr 30 10:04:16 2016 From: franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it (Marco Franceschini) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 16 12:04:16 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request In-Reply-To: <61847894-5F4D-459C-A08B-BA6D2382BC0F@unil.ch> Message-ID: Dear Johannes, dear list members, I am forwarding the following message on behalf of prof. Torella. ??? Dear Johannes, I can confirm what Marco said on the ground of my own experience with Malayalam mss. at Kariyavattom. The 'cryptographic code' is basically analogous to the prast?ra, i.e. the arrangement of the phonemes that the single school may use to instruct their own adepts on how to form the various mantras (mantroddh?ra). This practice is however far from being frequent. Best regards Raffaele Prof. Raffaele Torella Chair of Sanskrit Istituto Italiano di Studi Orientali Sapienza Universit? di Roma www.scribd.com/raffaeletorella www.academia.edu/raffaeletorella <<< Il giorno 30/apr/2016, alle ore 09:12, Marco Franceschini ha scritto: > Dear Johannes, > > although it?s very far from Tibet, it appears that in Kerala a particular letter-numeral systems was used as a ?cryptographic code? through which only the initiated in the system were able to reorder the intentionally jumbled folios of a manuscript. On this, see Renou/Filliozat, L?Inde classique, p. 708. > > Best wishes, > > Marco Franceschini > ??????????? > Fixed-term Researcher > University of Bologna > Department of History and Cultures > via Zamboni 33 - 40126 Bologna - Italy > marco.franceschini3 at unibo.it > --- > > > Il giorno 29/apr/2016, alle ore 18:51, Johannes Bronkhorst ha scritto: > >> Dear friends and colleagues, >> A friend asked me to post the following question: >> >> From Amy Heller (tibetologist): I am currently studying a 408 page >> 11th-12th century Tibetan Prajnaparamita from Tholing whose page numbering >> does not conform to the specifics of W Tibetan manuscripts - there are many >> "small" aberrant details , although the numbering is on the whole legible. A >> colleague suggested to me that this is a reflection, perhaps, of an Indian >> tradition to conceal accurate numbering from the eyes of infidels, >> presumably in vigor in N India, ca 10th-12th c (in Hindu and Buddhist >> circles) to conceal from potential Muslim eyes?? I asked an Indian friend >> (curator in an art museum) who did not know of this tradition at all, nor >> was I aware of it. Is this spurious or genuine? Feedback would be most >> appreciated, thanks! >> >> Johannes Bronkhorst >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de Sat Apr 30 11:26:43 2016 From: wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de (Harald Wiese) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 16 13:26:43 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Ka=CC=84tya=CC=84yanasmr=CC=A3ti_(Kane_1933)?= Message-ID: <57249673.2040206@wifa.uni-leipzig.de> Dear list members, could anybody help me with a copy of "Ka?tya?yanasmr?tisaroddharah? or Ka?tya?yanasmr?ti on vyavaha?ra (law and procedure)" by Kane (1933), please. Yours sincerely Harald Wiese University of Leipzig wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de From alanus1216 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 30 13:09:31 2016 From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com (Allen Thrasher) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 16 13:09:31 +0000 Subject: Fw: [consald] Fwd: AISLS: JOB ANNOUNCEMENT: Executive Director, AISLS Colombo Center, Half-time Position. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1001914183.5263649.1462021771712.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 10:45 PM, Edward Proctor wrote: FYI, ESP ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: John Rogers Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 22:06:59 -0400 Subject: AISLS: JOB ANNOUNCEMENT: Executive Director, AISLS Colombo Center, Half-time Position. To: aisls-l at lists.pdx.edu Dear Colleagues, Please share this job announcement with any qualified potential applicants. John Rogers *Executive Director, American Institute for Lankan Studies (AILS), Colombo 5.* *Half-time position.* The American Institute for Lankan Studies (AILS) is a non-profit company that carries out the programmes of the American Institute for Sri Lankan Studies (AISLS), a consortium of US universities that promotes social science and humanities scholarship by US-based scholars and builds links between American and Sri Lankan scholars and institutions. The AILS Executive Director reports to the AISLS office in the United States.? He or she is responsible for all aspects of AILS operations.? Duties include: 1)? ? ? ? ? ? Providing support and advice for visiting foreign researchers on matters such as visas, housing, transportation and health, and assisting them in making contacts with Sri Lankan scholars and organizations. 2)? ? ? ? ? ? Administering AISLS workshops and supporting other AISLS programmes, such as those for language instruction and for the preservation and dissemination of research resources. 3)? ? ? ? ? ? Supervising other AILS staff. 4)? ? ? ? ? ? Maintaining the AILS premises and facilities, including its library and computer systems, in good working order. 5)? ? ? ? ? ? Ensuring that AILS fulfills the requirements of the Companies Act and other relevant regulations of the government of Sri Lanka, and that the annual audit is carried out in a timely manner. Applicants should be fluent in English and Sinhala.? Knowledge of Tamil is desirable. Applicants should have an undergraduate degree, administrative experience in the non-profit or public sector, and be sympathetic to AISLS goals. Postgraduate study is not required, but is desirable.? Educational qualifications need not be in the humanities or social sciences, but applicants should have a general interest in these fields as well as familiarity with the Sri Lankan higher education system.? Prior study or residence outside Sri Lanka is desirable. The position requires interacting constructively with a broad range of individuals, including foreign scholars and students, Sri Lankan government officials, Sri Lankan university staff, and local patrons of the AILS library.? Tact and interpersonal skills are thus essential. This is a half time position.? Salary will be commensurate with previous experience and qualifications. To apply, send a resume and cover letter detailing how your previous experiences suit you for this position to Dr. John Rogers, US Director, American Institute for Sri Lankan Studies, at us.director.aisls at gmail.com.? The resume should include the names and contact information of two referees.? Application deadline is 6 June 2016.? We plan to carry out interviews in Colombo on 1 August and 2 August 2016. Informal inquiries may be addressed to John Rogers at the email address given above. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Sat Apr 30 14:09:57 2016 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 16 14:09:57 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Ka=CC=84tya=CC=84yanasmr=CC=A3ti_(Kane_1933)?= In-Reply-To: <57249673.2040206@wifa.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: Dear Harald, I have a very poor-quality one from DLI, but checking today I see a much larger file there, which may be better. While I wait for it to download, I send you the link: http://www.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/281138 Best, Tim Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin ? From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Harald Wiese > Date: Saturday, April 30, 2016 at 7:26 AM To: "indology at list.indology.info" > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ka?tya?yanasmr?ti (Kane 1933) Dear list members, could anybody help me with a copy of "Ka?tya?yanasmr?tisaroddharah? or Ka?tya?yanasmr?ti on vyavaha?ra (law and procedure)" by Kane (1933), please. Yours sincerely Harald Wiese University of Leipzig wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christoph.emmrich at utoronto.ca Sat Apr 30 17:00:32 2016 From: christoph.emmrich at utoronto.ca (Christoph Emmrich) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 16 17:00:32 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] XVIIIth IABS Congress, Toronto 2017, Second Circular Message-ID: XVIIIth Congress of the International Association of Buddhist Studies (IABS): Second Circular Dear Colleagues, Dear Friends: Preparations are well underway for the XVIIIth Congress of the International Association of Buddhist Studies (IABS), which takes place at the University of Toronto, August 20th to the 25th, 2017. On behalf of the IABS, my university, and the conference?s Planning Committee, I kindly send you this Second Circular to share the panels that will be presented, to invite individual papers for the panels and sections here proposed, and to encourage all IABS members and supporters to attend the Congress in Toronto. General Information This Congress is a unique opportunity for Buddhist Studies scholars from around the world to convene and celebrate the excellence of our field. As Chair of the Planning Committee, I enthusiastically encourage you to circulate this Second Circular to colleagues, students, on message boards, electronic forums and on social media. This Second Circular is sent to all current IABS members, those who have filled out the electronic ?Mailing List? request form on the website, and to those who wrote me directly. We strive to convene as inclusive a Congress as possible, and welcome the attendance of a diverse range of scholars, students and supporters. I would once again kindly remind everyone that they must be a fully paid member of IABS for the year 2017 in order to attend the event, deliver a paper, or sit on a panel in Toronto. To be a member of the association in 2017, those wishing to participate in the Congress will need to pay their IABS dues by December 31, 2016. All participants will also need to pay a Congress registration fee used to help us cover the cost of hosting the event, stipulated below. IABS membership can be secured through the online form at the IABS website: www.iabsinfo.net. Kindly keep in mind that on registration, to complete the process aspiring participants will be required to provide proof of payment of their IABS dues for 2017. Initial enquiries about eligibility should be sent to the association?s Secretary General, Dr. Ulrich Pagel (up1 at soas.ac.uk). Submission of panel proposals for the Congress has already closed, and I, along with the Planning Committee, would like to generously thank all those who took time to submit their panel proposals. Given the high volume of submissions?an IABS record?not every panel was accepted, though all were of superior quality and testify to the wide-ranging excellence of our field. Submission of individual paper abstracts for both panels and sections (each of which is outlined below) opens May 15th, 2016, and closes October 1st, 2016. Please note that individual paper abstracts cannot be accepted after October 1st, 2016, so be sure to take note of the deadline. Congress registration opens October 1st, 2016, and closes just prior to the start of the proceedings, August 18th, 2017. Registration any time between these dates is permitted. Please see below for further details on how to register, as well as to the amenities covered by the fee. Though our field spans a myriad of linguistic regions and our members represent the most diverse language backgrounds, it is IABS policy that official Congress proceedings, including papers and presentations, be conducted in an English-language medium. As all future communication will be distributed via email, I encourage those who wish to attend or stay abreast of Congress news to fill out the electronic ?Mailing List? request form found at our website: http://www.iabs2017-uoft.ca/contact/. Please write to me, Christoph Emmrich, directly, if you have any questions or concerns about future communication. My address is found at the bottom of this circular under ?Correspondent,? or at the above website address. Academic Program In following with past Congresses, the proceedings in Toronto will consist of both panel presentations and paper sections. Panels have been proposed by their respective convenors, and will consist of no more than six papers, each 20 minutes in length, each followed by a 10 minute discussion period. All told, panels will last half a day, including a coffee and tea break after the first three papers. The organizers and I will strive to ensure that papers in each panel begin and end in unison to allow participants to attend select papers from multiple panels. Sections, in contrast, have been chosen in accordance with past Congresses and are to be compiled from individual paper submissions. They will follow the same format as panels in terms of time and duration: 20 minutes for delivery and 10 minutes of question and answer period immediately following each paper. Please be advised that in the event an insufficient number of qualified entries are made to a given section, the Planning Committee and I reserve the right to decide to cancel the said section and reassign the papers accepted to another, thematically equivalent section as well as the time slot to another section with a surplus of submissions. Individual Paper Proposals I cordially invite scholars, students, and independent researchers from across the spectrum of Buddhist Studies to submit abstracts for individual papers, starting May 15th, 2016. Paper abstracts should be no more than 500 words, and preferably in both word and PDF format. In order to contribute a paper to an individual section, please upload abstracts to the Congress website at http://www.iabs2017-uoft.ca/, indicating which section the abstract will address. Please limit your selection to one section. The list of sections is found below. It has been chosen with the aim of being both representative of the traditional profile of the Congress and as inclusive as possible. Some submissions might fit under several section headers, though only one presentation per participant is permitted. Indeed, to ensure a smooth and balanced program that allows for maximum participation, attendees are limited to act in only one official capacity at the Congress: this limit extends to presenting a paper, convening a panel, or acting as designated discussant. If one has any questions pertaining to this limit, please contact me directly at the correspondence address listed below. The following are the sections proposed for the XVIIIth IABS Congress: ?gama and Nik?ya Studies Abhidharma Studies Buddhism and Gender Buddhism and Its Relation to Other Religions Buddhism and Its Relation to Science Buddhism and Society Buddhism and the ?rama?as Buddhist Art and Architecture Buddhist Hermeneutics, Scholasticism, and Commentarial Techniques Buddhist Literature Buddhist Music Buddhist Places Buddhist Sciences Contemporary Buddhism Early Buddhism Epigraphy, Manuscripts, and Codicology Epistemology and Logic in Buddhism Information Technologies in Buddhist Studies Mah?y?na Buddhism Mah?y?na S?tras ?r?vakay?na Buddhism, incl. Therav?da Tantric Buddhism The Canonical Languages of Buddhism Vinaya Studies Panels, unlike sections, are organized by their respective convenor(s), who are responsible for their academic standard, thematic cohesion, and timely submission. Should you wish to contribute a paper towards the conference that in your eyes may fit one of the announced panels, you should contact the convenor(s) directly through the email addresses provided below, before submitting a paper proposal to one of the sections. All decisions regarding acceptance of paper proposals are made by the convenor(s). Once panels have been filled, their convenor(s) can close the panels and direct further submissions to paper sections instead. We welcome convenors to also present on their respective panels (this being the only exception to the one-capacity rule stated above), but also request them to ensure that no more than six papers constitute any one panel and to remind their panelists that they may not commit to joining other panels. Convenors should email a complete package of paper abstracts directly to me no later than October 1st, 2016. Below is a list of accepted panels for the XVIIIth IABS Congress in Toronto: Title Convenor(s) Email(s) A New Study of Ratn?kara??nti?s Praj??p?ramitopade?a Katsura, Shoryu Hong, Luo shoryukatsura at nifty.com Approaches to the Bodhicary?vat?ra Gold, Jonathan C. jcgold at princeton.edu Bell Inscriptions Across the Buddhist World Doney, Lewis Bretfeld, Sven doney.lewis at gmail.com sven.bretfeld at ntnu.no Brahmin Buddhists Walser, Joseph joseph.walser at tufts.edu Buddhism from the Margins: Using Manuscript Sources to Re-examine the Rituals and Routines of Medieval and Early Modern Buddhist Communities in Japan, Korea, and China Keyworth, George A. george.keyworth at gmail.com Buddhism in the S?tav?hana Empire: The Languages of the S?tav?hanas and the Languages of Buddhism Ollett, Andrew andrew.ollett at gmail.com Buddhist Conceptions of History Thompson, Luke lnt2106 at columbia.edu Buddhist Cosmology and Astral Science Mak, Bill M. bill.m.mak at gmail.com Buddhist Landscapes Made and Remade Carbine, Jason A. jcarbine at whittier.edu Buddhist Studies and the Scientific Study of Meditation Braun, Erik McMahan, David ecb2j at eservices.virginia.edu david.mcmahan at fandm.edu Buddhist Tourism: Sacred Sites within Global Networks Bruntz, Courtney Schedneck, Brooke bruntzc at oregonstate.edu brooke at iseaa.org Buddhist Ways of Reading Heim, Maria Gummer, Natalie mrheim at amherst.edu gummern at beloit.edu Concepts and Techniques of Prognostication Guggenmos, Esther-Maria Scheuermann, Rolf rolf.scheuermann at fau.de esther-maria.guggenmos at fau.de Conventional Reality, Conventional Truth McClintock, Sara slmccli at emory.edu Deeds of a Buddha Tournier, Vincent Luczanits, Christian Sernesi, Marta vt6 at soas.ac.uk cl46 at soas.ac.uk ms153 at soas.ac.uk Dh?ra?? Literature and Textual Cultures Davidson, Ronald M. rdavidson at fairfield.edu Discipline, Agency, Inquiry: Vinaya Reception in Women?s Monastic Communities Past and Present Langenberg, Amy Paris langenap at eckerd.edu Does Candrak?rti Offer Any Epistemology (pram??a)? Westerhoff, Jan Thakchoe, Sonam jan.westerhoff at theology.ox.ac.uk sonam.thakchoe at utas.edu.au Early Buddhist Manuscripts from Gandh?ra: New Discoveries and Research Baums, Stefan Strauch, Ingo baums at lmu.de ingo.strauch at unil.ch Images and Practices of Buddhist Kingship across Asia Berkwitz, Stephen Dotson, Brandon sberkwitz at missouristate.edu dotson.brandon at gmail.com Insights into Gandh?ran Buddhist Narratives through Art and Texts Neelis, Jason jneelis at wlu.ca Literatures of Contemplation Quintman, Andrew Schaeffer, Kurtis andrew.quintman at yale.edu ks6bb at virginia.edu Monastic Espionage in East Asia: Medieval Period Chen, Jinhua jinhuachen2013 at gmail.com Monastic Espionage in East Asia in the Age of Isolationism, 14th to 19th Century Bingenheimer, Marcus m.bingenheimer at gmail.com Monastic Espionage in East Asia: Modern Period Brose, Benjamin bbrose at umich.edu New Approaches to W?nhyo and His Thought ? A Panel in Commemoration of the 1400th Anniversary of His Birth Cho, Eun-su Buswell, Robert cho.eunsu at gmail.com buswell at humnet.ucla.edu New Research on Newar Buddhism B?hnemann, Gudrun gbuhnema at wisc.edu New Trajectories in the Study of Buddhism and Law Lammerts, D. Christian Schonthal, Ben dcl96 at rci.rutgers.edu ben.schonthal at otago.ac.nz Recent Approaches in Vinaya Studies Borgland, Jens W. jwborgland at gmail.com Recent Research on the D?rgh?gama Melzer, Gudrun Choi, Jinkyoung g.melzer at lmu.de precioussunshine at gmail.com Reconstructing the History of Late Indian Buddhism (Part III) Relationship between Tantric and Non-tantric Doctrines Kyuma, Taiken kyuma at human.mie-u.ac.jp Ritual, Doctrine, and Monasticism: Buddhist Practices in Dunhuang Liu, Cuilan Chen, Huaiyu cuilanliu at post.harvard.edu huaiyu.chen at asu.edu Stories Behind the Story: Revisiting the Buddha?s Hagiography Sasson, Vanessa v.sasson at marianopolis.edu The Avad?na?ataka: The Uses of Narrative Appleton, Naomi Muldoon-Hules, Karen naomi.appleton at ed.ac.uk kmuldoon at unex.ucla.edu The Buddha?s Footprint in Asian Cultures Handlin, Lilian lilioscar at aol.com The Manuscript Tradition of the P?li Texts in South and Southeast Asia Yamanaka, Yukio yukio916 at icloud.com The Roles of Iconic Imagery in South Asian Buddhist Architectural Contexts: Reconstructions and New Perspectives Morrissey, Nicolas nmorriss at uga.edu Transmission and Transformation of Buddhist Logic and Epistemology in East Asia (I): Around Dign?ga?s Logic and Fallacies of Debate Ono, Mitoi Inami, Masahiro ono at logos.tsukuba.ac.jp Transmission and Transformation of Buddhist Logic and Epistemology in East Asia (II): Around Yog?c?ra and Madhyamaka Texts in Chinese Translations Moriyama, Shinya Moro, Shigeki smoriyam at shinshu-u.ac.jp Transparent, Translucent, or Opaque: Chinese Translations of Indic Texts as Windows onto Indian Buddhism Witkowski, Nicholas nwitkows at alumni.stanford.edu Travel, Transmission, and Affiliation: Lineage in the Buddhist Crossroads of Inner Asia King, Matthew W. matthew.king at ucr.edu Vinaya Commentaries Clarke, Shayne clarsha at mcmaster.ca What Makes a Monastery a Great Monastery? Textual, Art Historical, and Archaeological Evidence from India to [the Borders of] China Forte, Erika erika.forte at univie.ac.at Yog?c?ra Across Asia: India, Tibet, and East Asia Yao, Zhihua Bayer, Achim zyao at cuhk.edu.hk bayer_achim at yahoo.com Zones of Contact: Facets of Buddhist Interactions in Eastern Central Asia During the 9th-14th Centuries Meinert, Carmen carmen.meinert at rub.de Conference Schedule Date Morning Afternoon Evening Sunday, August 20, 2017 Registration Registration Opening Reception Monday, August 21, 2017 Panels and Sections Panels and Sections Evening Presentations Tuesday, August 22, 2017 Panels and Sections Panels and Sections Evening Presentations Wednesday, August 23, 2017 Panels and Sections Panels and Sections Evening Presentations Thursday, August 24, 2017 Panels and Sections Excursions Friday, August 25, 2017 Panels and Sections Panels and Sections Closing Reception Registration Fee To assist the organizers in hosting the event, we have set the Congress fee at $330 CAD. This fee includes attendance, coffee, tea and hot lunch during the academic programming, meals at both the Opening and Closing Receptions, as well as printing costs for paper programs. Not included in this fee are meals outside of the academic program and Opening and Closing Receptions, such as breakfasts and dinners, as well as travel, accommodation, excursions, and special events. Those registering before March 31st, 2017 will enjoy a discounted fee of $300 CAD, while graduate students are entitled to a rate of $250 CAD with confirmation of enrollment status. Students from countries with low currency exchange rates when compared to the Canadian Dollar may request a fee reduction by writing to me directly at the address provided below. Decisions on fee reduction will be made on a case-by-case basis, and I regret that only a limited number of such reductions can be granted. Fee payment will be made online through our website, where, as mentioned above, you will be expected to provide proof of payment of your IABS membership fee for 2017. Please visit the website on October 1st, 2016 to complete your online Congress registration. Posters and Exhibits In addition to panels and paper sections, we welcome the submission of project presentations from scholars and organizations who wish to display their work to the Congress at large. We regret that only a limited number of presentations can be selected. Please write to me directly to inquire about presenting your project at the XVIIIth IABS Congress. Exhibitors providing professional services or products such as books are also invited to contact me directly to inquire about renting space during the Congress proceedings. Visa Requirements As the Congress will attract scholars and students from all over the world, it is not possible for the organising team to advise or assist with securing visas to Canada, since the process varies widely depending on the country of origin of each attendee. Potential attendees are encouraged to consult the Canadian Embassy or Consulate in their home country or country of residence as early as possible. Travel agencies are also possible sources of information on the visa process. We can, however, provide letters indicating that an individual is in fact registered to attend or present at the Congress. Please write to me directly if you wish to request such a letter. Airline I wish to gently remind everyone that Congress attendees are responsible for covering all travel to and from Toronto. Currently we are trying to secure a discounted rate for travel by air, and updated information will appear on the website once registration begins, October 1st, 2016. Please check the website after this date for update travel information. Accommodation Congress participants are responsible to secure their own accommodation and pay all attendant costs. Below is a list of accommodations near the University of Toronto, St. George Campus, some of which have granted discounted rates to Congress attendees. When booking, please inform them of your attendance at the XVIIIth Congress of the International Association of Buddhist Studies, 2017. A range of options has been provided to suit the different needs of our Congress attendees. Please be advised that the University is located in downtown Toronto, and August is one of the busiest times of the year, so kindly book early if possible. Budget Single Occupancy Double Occupancy Admiral St. George: BB and Guesthouse 305 St. George St. / 416-921-1899 $50/Student $95/1 Bedroom $125/Big room Annex Quest House 83 Spadina Road / 416-922-1934 $95/night $545/week Medium Howard Johnson Hotel: Toronto-Yorkville 89 Avenue Road / 416-964-1220 $95/1 Double Bed $143/King Bed $109/2 Double Beds Comfort Hotel Downtown 15 Charles St. E. / 416-924-1222 >From $119 Eaton Chelsea 33 Gerrard Street West 1-800-243-5732 / 416-595-1975 >From $169* >From $169* Holiday Inn Toronto: Downtown 30 Carlton Street / 416-977-6655 $177/1 Bed Executive $177/ 2 Double Beds Beverley Place 226 Beverley St / 416-977-0077 $180/Single, $290/Queen High End The Grande: Hotel and Suites 225 Jarvis Street / 416-863-9000 $229 Grand Deluxe* $389 Two Bed Junior Park Hyatt Toronto 4 Avenue Road / 416-925-1234 >From $309/Night Intercontinental Toronto-Yorkville 220 Bloor Street West / 416-960-5200 $235/Night* Windsor Arms Hotel 18 St. Thomas Street / 416-971-9666 $325/Junior Suite* $395/Junior Suite 2 Beds The Hazelton Hotel 118 Yorkville Ave / 416-963-6300 >From $525/Night Four Seasons Hotel Toronto 60 Yorkville Avenue / 416-964-0411 >From $565/Night *Special discounts for Congress attendees. Some of these rates will expire as the date of the Congress moves closer, so make sure to book at least a month in advance of the proceedings. An updated list of accommodations will be available on the Congress website after registration begins, so please check the website regularly after this date. The Third Circular, due in April, 2017, will also contain more information about accommodations. Conference Travel Grants Unfortunately we are not able to provide any grants or scholarships to participants or presenters for this Congress. Website I urge you to consult our website regularly for updates and practical information about the upcoming Congress at http://www.iabs2017-uoft.ca/. We will be sure to update it regularly. Third Circular In a year from now, April 2017, I will send forth the Third Circular, the final notice before the Congress proceedings in August of that same year. The Third Circular will include a detailed academic program, further information about evening events and excursions, as well as up to date travel and accommodation information. I truly look forward to seeing everyone in Toronto, 2017. My warmest regards Christoph Emmrich Planning Committee of the XVIIIth IABS Congress President: Anne MacDonald Chair: Christoph Emmrich Members: Wendi Adamek, University of Calgary James Apple, University of Calgary Dan Arnold, University of Chicago James Benn, McMaster University Lara Braitstein, McGill University Chen Shen, Royal Ontario Museum Jinhua Chen, University of British Columbia Shayne Clarke, McMaster University Deepali Dewan, Royal Ontario Museum David Drewes, University of Manitoba Frances Garrett, University of Toronto Amanda Goodman, University of Toronto Nam-Lin Hur, University of British Columbia Chiara Letizia, Universit? de Qu?bec Jessica Main, University of British Columbia Jason Neelis, Wilfrid Laurier University Mark Rowe, McMaster University Alicia Turner, York University Jeff Wilson, University of Waterloo Advisory Board: Collett Cox, University of Washington Birgit Kellner, Austrian Academy of Sciences Ulrich Pagel, University of London Tom Tillemans, University of Lausanne Academic Coordination: Anthony Scott, University of Toronto Correspondent Dr. Christoph Emmrich, Associate Professor Chair, Planning Committee of the XVIIIth IABS Congress University of Toronto, Department for the Study of Religion 170 St. George Street, Toronto, Ontario M5R 2M8 Canada E-mail: christoph.emmrich at utoronto.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IABS2017SecondCircularletterattachment.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 501368 bytes Desc: not available URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sat Apr 30 18:15:04 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 16 20:15:04 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary Co-Authors In-Reply-To: <5FF28BF5-E533-426F-9D3D-8B7FEB6C529A@helsinki.fi> Message-ID: > there were no pandits in Oxford Monier-Williams - a solitary giant, helped in his Sanskrit Lexicographer's work only by several European trained sub-giants. No assistance from Indian pandits needed; he could manage without their help, he himself would explain the meanings of rare lexemes appearing in some vague (left vague on purpose!) Vedic verses, he himself would explain the meanings of some difficult terms appearing in some half-forgotten philosophical or astronomical or grammatical treatises . No, no need for any pandits in Oxford. No pandit could measure up to him. Dear All, Great knowledge - yes. But - was his knowledge boundless? I personally would rather - would tend to - doubt it. The way his work is presented in the SED itself - it confirms the White Man's advantage over the Indian natives: their tradition has to be organized, their sacred language de-sanctified, and He - the great Monier Monier-Williams - does it. Colonial pride. Sir Monier Monier-Williams, KCIE. Knight Commander of the Order of the Indian Empire. Even If there were no pandits in Oxford at the time, there certainly were multilingual pandits working in London, experts in Sanskrit and English and local languages, in the India Office. Can we exclude any contacts between them and the M-W's team? Any paid-for consultations? Regards, Artur Karp 2016-04-29 10:46 GMT+02:00 Klaus Karttunen : > It was noted by several contemporary critics. He even copies some of the > misprints appearing in the Peterburg dictionary. But this was the first > edition of Monier Williams (1872). The second edition (1899) was completely > revised and in this he was helped by several assistants and colleagues ? > all mentioned at the end of his introduction. He visited India three times, > but never lived there, and there were no pandits in Oxford. > > Best, > Klaus > > Klaus Karttunen > South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies > Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures > PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) > 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND > Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418 > Fax +358-(0)2941 22094 > Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi > > > > > > > On 29 Apr 2016, at 11:37, Krishnaprasad G > wrote: > > I noticed, he just translated ( based on) Kleines Petersburger > Woerterbuch (Boehtlingk) *Sanskrit*- > > *German Dictionary (one can easily verify this)* > > > > *also he mentiones Radhakanta Dev who is an editor of Shabdakalpadruma* > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > >> Sir Monier Monier-Williams, M.A., K.C.I.E., pays due tribute to his >> Western contributors. But I do not find in his Dictionary any mention of >> his Indian contributors' input - no list of Pandits who worked for him - >> without them, without their immense knowledge, his Opus Magnum would have >> never appeared in print. >> >> I can only wish that someone with access to M-W's working archive would >> find documents re M-W's Indian employees and publish their names, more: >> using Indian archive materials - their full biograms. >> >> They deserve to be finally brought out of that area of shadow surrounding >> colonial Indology. >> >> Regards, >> >> Artur Karp >> >> University of Warsaw (emeritus) >> >> Poland >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sat Apr 30 19:22:31 2016 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 16 19:22:31 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary Co-Authors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047B7ABB7@xm-mbx-04-prod> The conversation seems to have forgotten entirely the role of the great Skt.-Skt. dictionaries of the 19th c., the Sabdakalpadruma and the Vacaspatyam (sorry that I have no diacriticals at the moment). Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org Sat Apr 30 22:30:15 2016 From: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org (Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica) Date: Sun, 01 May 16 10:30:15 +1200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] RESOURCE> Scholiast update - April 2016 Message-ID: <7e360889-996a-a7c7-1fb2-12719fb0eb34@indica-et-buddhica.org> Dear Colleagues, The most recent update can be found here: Scholiast update - April 2016 Publication date: 30.April.2016, 21:30 `Scholiast is now holding 250,695 bibliographic records. This includes more than 43,000 records for books reviewed in ...' http://indica-et-buddhica.org/scholia-scholiast/updates/scholiast-update-april-2016 For further details please see: Indica et Buddhica Scholiast http://indica-et-buddhica.org/scholia-scholiast/scholiast With best regards, Richard -- Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica Littledene Bay Road Oxford 7430 NZ M: +64-21-064-0216 T: +64-3-312-1699 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 23:37:16 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 16 19:37:16 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M-W Sanskrit-English Dictionary Co-Authors In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047B7ABB7@xm-mbx-04-prod> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 3:22 PM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > The conversation seems to have forgotten entirely the role of the great > Skt.-Skt. dictionaries > of the 19th c., the Sabdakalpadruma and the Vacaspatyam (sorry that I have > no diacriticals > at the moment). > In Monier Williams introductory material under abbreviations he has: " L. lexicographers (i.e. a word or meaning which although given in the native lexicons, has not yet been met with in any published text. ". Over the years I've looked up a lot of words from the tantric literature in M-W and many times found the entry had this "L." reference. Also as an experiment I just did a random search for a few entries in a text version of M-W's for this L. reference just to see if they were also in Boehtlink-Roth. Of the seven random entries with the "L." reference that I picked ,two were in MW but not in either pw or PW. and 5 were in both MW and PW a?sem?la roha?adruma were in MW but not PW or pw a?hripa, k?audraj?, nihi?sana, n?tigho?a, n?cabhojya were in MW and PW Are all or some of these 7 words in Sabdakalpadruma and the Vacaspatyam ? Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: