From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 12:32:02 2015 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 15 14:32:02 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Book Info: Chakravorty & Kugle "Performing Ecstasy" Message-ID: Dear Indologist, I am looking for this book: Pallabi Chakravorty & S. A. Kugle. (2009). *Performing Ecstasy: The Poetics And Politics Of Religion In India*. Manohar: [I am also unsure about the place of publication]. anyone can sand me the index of it? I would check if is there anything of interest for my PhD research. Best, Paolo -- Paolo Eugenio Rosati 'Sapienza' University of Rome Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa Section: South Asian Studies Skype: paoloe.rosati -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 22:26:54 2015 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 15 15:26:54 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A two-week course: "The Word and the World" Message-ID: Sorry for cross posting. >From 13-25 July, 2015, I will team-teach a course on the place of language in Indian intellectual tradition at Veliyanad, Kerala, India. Analytical or linguistically oriented philosophy will naturally constitute a major part of the course, and, even in that part, Bhart?-hari?s V?kyapad?ya will occupy the centre-stage as the oldest accessible and extensive work fitting the bill. Interactions of Buddhist and Jain thinkers with Brahmanical thinkers will also figure to a significant extent. The course is open to college and university students as well as faculty from various disciplines. Detailed information about it can be had by following the links http://mu-cif.chinfo.org/summerschool2015.html and http://mu-cif.chinfo.org/img/course outline.pdf I would greatly appreciate your help in giving publicity to the availability of the course, since the deadline for registration (20 June) is not far away. Please use the text at the first website specified above or the texts in the two attachments below for informing the faculty and students in departments such as Sanskrit, Buddhist Studies, Jain Studies, psychology and linguistics. If you do not receive the attachments, please write to me to receive them. Teaching with me for most of the two weeks will be Prof. Parimal Patil of Harvard University, Prof. David Lawrence of the University of North Dakota, Prof. Shrinivasa Varakhedi of Karnataka Sanskrit University and Prof. Mithilesh Chaturvedi of the University of Delhi. Prof. M.A. Alwar of Karnataka Sanskrit University and Swami Advayananda of Chinmaya International Foundation will also contribute to course content from the point of view of the disciplines of M?m??s? and Ved?nta. The modest fee of the course covers accommodation, food, access to library and Internet facilities, and participation in the Sanskrit and Yoga classes. Ashok Aklujkar Professor Emeritus University of British Columbia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 01.Poster.SummerSchoolWordWorld.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 101852 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 02.BrochureSummerSchoolWordWorld..pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 714820 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au Tue Jun 2 05:57:18 2015 From: Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au (Greg Bailey) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 15 05:57:18 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_yad_ida=E1=B9=83_vedavacana=E1=B9=83_kuru_karma_tyajeti_ca?= Message-ID: <3DD3A86C-D524-453D-80C2-A9C8464E908D@latrobe.edu.au> Dear List, The p?das: yad ida? vedavacana? kuru karma tyajeti ca / occur with minor variations four times in the Mah?bh?rata. Can anybody guide me to a Vedic text that says kuru karma tyaja or something like it? I have had a quick look at a few texts, but come up with nothing. Thanks in advance. Cheers, Greg Bailey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 06:51:28 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 15 08:51:28 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8BLaunch_of_Bodhisvara_website:_Resounding_Sanskrit_Buddhist_Literature?= Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Christian Bernert Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 05:13:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ?? ?? Launch of Bodhisvara website: Resounding Sanskrit Buddhist Literature Dear friends, I am very happy to share with you the *link* for the *Bodhisvara** website*, Resounding Sanskrit Buddhist Literature: Recordings of the Buddha's Heritage. BodhiSvara [image: image] BodhiSvara ??ntideva?s Bodhicary?vat?ra ? completed May 2015 The Bodhicary?vat?ra figures among the most celebrated works of Sanskrit Buddhist literature. View on www.bodhisvara.com Preview by Yahoo Despite the wealth of Sanskrit Buddhist literature accessible to us today, very little of it is available in audio form. We hope that by making these recordings available, there will be a greater appreciation of this treasury of wisdom which contains jewels of unsurpassable beauty. The first project published on the website is a recording of ??ntideva?s *Bodhicary?vat?ra *recited by Prof. Kashinath Nyaupane. We hope you will enjoy the recordings, and share the link with your friends and colleagues. We chose the auspicious date of Saga Dawa, Vesakh according to the Tibetan Calendar, to launch the website, as an homage to the Buddha's awakening and legacy. With my best wishes, Christian Bernert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martin.gansten at pbhome.se Tue Jun 2 09:34:59 2015 From: martin.gansten at pbhome.se (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 15 11:34:59 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sources for verses on fate/karma In-Reply-To: <5564BA71.30904@pbhome.se> Message-ID: <556D78C3.4000202@pbhome.se> Somewhat belated thanks to Walter Slaje, Dominic Goodall and Elliot Stern for their input on this matter. The sources of some of these verses seem quite elusive! Martin Gansten -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From annamisia at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 11:50:42 2015 From: annamisia at yahoo.com (Anna A. Slaczka) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 15 11:50:42 +0000 Subject: contact details Message-ID: <704231679.3952529.1433245843002.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Dear list members, Does anybody have the contact details of Eveline Masilamani-Meyer, the author of (among others) 'Guardians of Tamil Nadu'? Thanks! Anna SlaczkaRijksmuseum, Amsterdam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 15:13:32 2015 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 15 08:13:32 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_yad_ida=E1=B9=83_vedavacana=E1=B9=83_kuru_karma_tyajeti_ca?= In-Reply-To: <3DD3A86C-D524-453D-80C2-A9C8464E908D@latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <2CBF8BED-DE9E-4576-BB91-06CEB4C974DB@mail.ubc.ca> Dear Greg, Probably ?vacana? here does not stand for an exact quotation but for an abbreviated statement of ??opani?ad 1-2, which contain ?kurvann eveha karm??i? and ?tena tyaktena bhu?j?th???. Note "ca?. Best wishes. ashok > On Jun 1, 2015, at 10:57 PM, Greg Bailey wrote: > > The p?das: yad ida? vedavacana? kuru karma tyajeti ca / occur with minor variations four times in the Mah?bh?rata. > > Can anybody guide me to a Vedic text that says kuru karma tyaja or something like it? I have had a quick look at a few texts, but come up with nothing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From olga.nowicka00 at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 19:07:19 2015 From: olga.nowicka00 at gmail.com (Olga Nowicka) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 15 21:07:19 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Govindan=C4=81tha,_author_of_=C5=9Aa=E1=B9=85kar=C4=81c=C4=81ryacarita?= Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I would like to ask if perhaps anybody knows something more about Govindan?tha from Kerala, the author of ?a?kara's hagiography - *?a?kar?c?ryacarita *also called *Keral?ya-?a?karavijaya *(dated for ca. 17th century, although this dating is rather doubtful)? I would be really grateful for any information, Olga Nowicka -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 19:39:34 2015 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 15 13:39:34 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Govindan=C4=81tha,_author_of_=C5=9Aa=E1=B9=85kar=C4=81c=C4=81ryacarita?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Olga, W. R. Antarkar, who is/was the world's leading expert on the various ?a?kara-vijayas, in his English Introduction to his Sanskrit edition of Govindan?tha's *?a?kar?c?ryacaritam* has a few paragraphs about him. This was published in *Bh**?rat?ya Vidy**?*, vol. 52, 1992, pp. 55-141. If needed, I can send you a scan of this. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Olga Nowicka wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I would like to ask if perhaps anybody knows something > more about Govindan?tha from Kerala, the author of > > ?a?kara's hagiography - *?a?kar?c?ryacarita *also called > > *Keral?ya-?a?karavijaya *(dated for ca. 17th century, although this dating is > > rather doubtful)? > I would be really grateful for any information, > > Olga Nowicka > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Tue Jun 2 20:16:42 2015 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 15 20:16:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sivaramamurti Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Is anyone aware of a good digital version of this work? Sivaramamurti, C. 1952. Indian Epigraphy and South Indian Scripts. Bulletin of the Madras Government Museum, New Series, General Section, 3 no. 4. Madras: Printed by the Superintendent, Govt. Press. (reprinted in 1999) Thanks, Arlo Griffiths EFEO -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au Tue Jun 2 21:05:59 2015 From: Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au (Greg Bailey) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 15 21:05:59 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_yad_ida=E1=B9=83_vedavacana=E1=B9=83_kuru_karma_tyajeti_ca?= Message-ID: <34A9AB65-8424-4236-AD04-3905210C70AD@latrobe.edu.au> Thanks to Ashok and Michael for their quick responses. I had wondered about the ca and now have a likely answer. Cheers, Greg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 06:09:07 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 15 08:09:07 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sivaramamurti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: - https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru866eg39ptssvr/BulletinMadrasGovMus2.pdf?dl=0 Best, Dominik On 2 June 2015 at 22:16, Arlo Griffiths wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Is anyone aware of a good digital version of this work? > > Sivaramamurti, C. 1952. *Indian Epigraphy and South Indian Scripts*. > Bulletin of the Madras Government Museum, New Series, General Section, 3 > no. 4. Madras: Printed by the Superintendent, Govt. Press. (reprinted in > 1999) > > Thanks, > > Arlo Griffiths > EFEO > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anurupa.n at ifpindia.org Wed Jun 3 07:25:27 2015 From: anurupa.n at ifpindia.org (Anurupa Naik) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 15 12:55:27 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication of the French Institute of Pondicherry In-Reply-To: <556EAB4D.6020800@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: <556EABE7.7080202@ifpindia.org> *INSTITUT FRAN?AIS DE PONDICHERY* ** *JUST RELEASED* ** */Bh???atantrarahasyam. The Bh???atantrarahasya of Kha??adeva with the S?raprak??ik? commentary by N. S. Ramanuja Tatacharya/**. * N. S. Ramanuja Tatacharya; associate editor S. Lakshminarasimham, Regards sur l'Asie du Sud / South Asian Perspectives n? 4, Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry,xxi, 664 p., 2015. Language: Sanskrit. *1200 Rs (52 **?**).*ISBN : 978-81-8470-204-0. The /Bh???atantrarahasya/ of Kha??adeva (17th c.) belongs to the Bh???a school of M?m??s?. It deals mainly with the meaning of roots and suffixes, and their role in conveying the meaning of the sentence. Though this is a topic of grammar, it is widely discussed in Ny?ya and M?m??s? works as well. The /Bh???atantrarahasya /is divided into two parts. The first part begins with the definition of /dharma/, the main concept of M?m??s?, and then deals at length with the meaning of injunctional suffix (/li?/), refuting the views of logicians and establishing /bh?van? /(creative energy) as the main meaning of the sentence. In the second part, the author discusses the meaning of nominal suffixes (/sup/), quoting relevant rules from P??inian grammar. Though Kha??adeva's interpretation of P??inian rules deviates from the grammatical tradition in some cases, he tries to prove that there is no violation of grammar by the M?m??sakas. Given the complexity of the /Bh???atantrarahasya/, Prof. Ramanuja Tatacharya presents it here with his own commentary, the /S?raprak??ik?/. Also included are an index of the P??inian rules, an index of the /k//?//rik//?/s (citations) and a bibliography. *Keywords:*M?m??s?, Bh???a school, commentary ** *About the commentator* Professor *N.S.* *Ramanuja Tatacharya* is one of the senior authorities in the fields of Ny?ya, Vy?kara?a, P?rvam?m??s?and Uttaram?m??s?. Since retiring as Vice-Chancellor of the Rashtriya Sanskrit Vidyapeetha of Tirupati, he has been associated with the French Institute of Pondicherry as Honorary Professor. His profound scholarship has earned him many awards, including the Certificate of Honour for Proficiency in Sanskrit conferred by the President of India and the Chevalier de la L?gion d?Honneur awarded by the French government. He has been awarded the titles of /Tarkav?caspati/ and /??straratn?kara/ by the Head of the /Sri Raghavendra Swamy Matha/ and the Sri /Vedanta Desika Sampradaya Sabha,/ respectively. He is also the recipient of the Ramakrishna Dalmia Srivani Alankara Award of the Ramakrishna Dalmia Srivani Nyas, and the Vachaspati Puraskar Award of the K. K. Birla Foundation. *To order, contact:* ** Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry P. B. 33, 11, St. Louis Street, Pondicherry-605001, INDIA Ph: +91-413-2231660 / 661. Fax: +91 413-2231605 E-mail: library at ifpindia.org -- Ms. Anurupa Naik Head, Library and Publication Division French Institute of Pondicherry (IFP) UMIFRE 21 CNRS-MAEE P.B. 33 11, St. Louis Street Pondicherry-605 001, INDIA Tel: 91-413-2231660 Fax: 91-413-2231605 e-mail:anurupa.n at ifpindia.org website:www.ifpindia.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Wed Jun 3 07:45:31 2015 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 15 09:45:31 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Govindan=C4=81tha,_author_of_=C5=9Aa=E1=B9=85kar=C4=81c=C4=81ryacarita?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6A227313-F979-4DC6-AFD2-FFD3CEF45570@uclouvain.be> The ?a?kar?c?ryacarita has been published several times before Antarkar's edition (Trichur [Kerala Publ. House] 1914, 1926, Kumbakonam [Sri Komalamba Mudranalaye] 1926, Poona [Citrasala Mudranalaye] 1931; the text publ. in 1966 by K.N.M. Divakaran Namputiri has been reissued recently in Calicut Sanskrit Series 50, 2013 [Ved??gad?pti (Collected works of K.N.M. D N.], pp. 153-215). According to K. Kunjunni Raja (CKSL pp. 151 fn. 150; 206, 243, with reference to Ullur KSC), Govindan?tha was "a disciple of R?ma V?riyar belonging to the Karikk???u V?riyam in South Malabar" and is also the author of a yamaka poem Gaur?kaly??a depicting the mariage of P?rvat? and ?iva (unpublished ; in 3 ??v?sas, noted for its simplicity and lucidity). This R?ma V?riyar of Karikkat was a contemporary of N?r?ya?a Bha??a of Melputt?r, so G "must have flourished in the first half of the seventeenth century A.D." G. recognized himself (1.6-7) that his work is based on Vy?s?cal?ya's ?a?karavijaya (publ. Madras GOML series 24, 1954), cf. Antarkar 2004, pp. 40 (+ 95 fn.), 48, etc., Pande 1994, pp. 21-22. Best CV Le 2 juin 2015 ? 21:39, David and Nancy Reigle a ?crit : > Dear Olga, > > W. R. Antarkar, who is/was the world's leading expert on the various ?a?kara-vijayas, in his English Introduction to his Sanskrit edition of Govindan?tha's ?a?kar?c?ryacaritam has a few paragraphs about him. This was published in Bh?rat?ya Vidy?, vol. 52, 1992, pp. 55-141. If needed, I can send you a scan of this. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Olga Nowicka wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I would like to ask if perhaps anybody knows something > more about Govindan?tha from Kerala, the author of > > ?a?kara's hagiography - ?a?kar?c?ryacarita also called > > Keral?ya-?a?karavijaya (dated for ca. 17th century, although this dating is > > rather doubtful)? > > I would be really grateful for any information, > Olga Nowicka > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Wed Jun 3 07:49:41 2015 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 15 09:49:41 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Govindan=C4=81tha,_author_of_=C5=9Aa=E1=B9=85kar=C4=81c=C4=81ryacarita?= In-Reply-To: <6A227313-F979-4DC6-AFD2-FFD3CEF45570@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: <5E8726A6-0EAD-4306-976D-8D8E11B97642@uclouvain.be> Sorry, read Vy?s?cala's ?a?karavijaya (or Vy?s?cal?ya) Le 3 juin 2015 ? 09:45, Christophe Vielle a ?crit : > The ?a?kar?c?ryacarita has been published several times before Antarkar's edition (Trichur [Kerala Publ. House] 1914, 1926, Kumbakonam [Sri Komalamba Mudranalaye] 1926, Poona [Citrasala Mudranalaye] 1931; the text publ. in 1966 by K.N.M. Divakaran Namputiri has been reissued recently in Calicut Sanskrit Series 50, 2013 [Ved??gad?pti (Collected works of K.N.M. D N.], pp. 153-215). According to K. Kunjunni Raja (CKSL pp. 151 fn. 150; 206, 243, with reference to Ullur KSC), Govindan?tha was "a disciple of R?ma V?riyar belonging to the Karikk???u V?riyam in South Malabar" and is also the author of a yamaka poem Gaur?kaly??a depicting the mariage of P?rvat? and ?iva (unpublished ; in 3 ??v?sas, noted for its simplicity and lucidity). This R?ma V?riyar of Karikkat was a contemporary of N?r?ya?a Bha??a of Melputt?r, so G "must have flourished in the first half of the seventeenth century A.D." > G. recognized himself (1.6-7) that his work is based on Vy?s?cal?ya's ?a?karavijaya (publ. Madras GOML series 24, 1954), cf. Antarkar 2004, pp. 40 (+ 95 fn.), 48, etc., Pande 1994, pp. 21-22. > > Best > CV > > Le 2 juin 2015 ? 21:39, David and Nancy Reigle a ?crit : > >> Dear Olga, >> >> W. R. Antarkar, who is/was the world's leading expert on the various ?a?kara-vijayas, in his English Introduction to his Sanskrit edition of Govindan?tha's ?a?kar?c?ryacaritam has a few paragraphs about him. This was published in Bh?rat?ya Vidy?, vol. 52, 1992, pp. 55-141. If needed, I can send you a scan of this. >> >> Best regards, >> >> David Reigle >> Colorado, U.S.A. >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Olga Nowicka wrote: >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> I would like to ask if perhaps anybody knows something >> more about Govindan?tha from Kerala, the author of >> >> ?a?kara's hagiography - ?a?kar?c?ryacarita also called >> >> Keral?ya-?a?karavijaya (dated for ca. 17th century, although this dating is >> >> rather doubtful)? >> >> I would be really grateful for any information, >> Olga Nowicka >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Wed Jun 3 12:09:57 2015 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 15 12:09:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sivaramamurti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks a lot Dominik for furnishing this fine digital version, and to other for answering as well. Best, Arlo Griffiths From: wujastyk at gmail.com Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 08:09:07 +0200 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sivaramamurti To: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com CC: indology at list.indology.info https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru866eg39ptssvr/BulletinMadrasGovMus2.pdf?dl=0Best, Dominik On 2 June 2015 at 22:16, Arlo Griffiths wrote: Dear colleagues, Is anyone aware of a good digital version of this work? Sivaramamurti, C. 1952. Indian Epigraphy and South Indian Scripts. Bulletin of the Madras Government Museum, New Series, General Section, 3 no. 4. Madras: Printed by the Superintendent, Govt. Press. (reprinted in 1999) Thanks, Arlo Griffiths EFEO _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 10:15:49 2015 From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 15 12:15:49 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Siddh=C4=81ntacandrodaya_on_the_Tarkasa=E1=B9=83graha?= Message-ID: <4B880D22-B6C1-424D-A534-AC4A72C394EE@gmail.com> Dear All, An Indology friend is looking for the Siddh?ntacandrodaya commentary on the Tarkasa?graha written by K???a-dh?rja?i-dik?ita. This was published by Gujarati Printing Press in 1923. Would someone happen to have a scanned copy of this text? Both of us would be highly obliged for this favour. Best wishes. Mrinal ************************ Mrinal Kaul Universit? degli Studi di Napoli "L'Orientale" Dipartimento Asia, Africa e Mediterraneo Piazza S. Domenico Maggiore, (Piano 5) 12-80134, Napoli (Palazzo Corigliano) ITALIA ************************* Tel: +39-3472579917 e-mail: mrinal.kaul at stx.oxon.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it Thu Jun 4 12:08:21 2015 From: alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it (Alessandro Battistini) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 15 14:08:21 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_book_help_S=C4=81hityaratn=C4=81kara?= Message-ID: Dear Members, I am looking for a scan of this book in 3 vols.: Sa?hityaratna?kara of Dharmasu?ri : with Nauka? of Carla Ven?kat?asu?ri and Mandara of Malla?di Laks?man?a Su?riSanskrit Academy series ; 21, 22, 24; Hyderabad : Osmania University As I am looking for a particular passage (6.14) dealing with the construction of n?gabandhas, the page concerned will suffice (it should be in vol.2)... Anyone willing to share? Best, Alessandro Battistini PhD Candidate Sapienza Universit? di Roma -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 17:35:21 2015 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 15 23:05:21 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] /to/ Message-ID: Dear Friends, I'm currently collecting some data on spoken Sanskrit. One dominant feature I have noticed in several different language nests across geographically diverse parts of North India is the use of /to/. During countless conversations over the last two months I have heard this particle used many times, albeit always in the same syntactic position and for the same semantic reason. My question regards whether this /to/ particle is in any way to be considered a Sanskrit particle or not? This /to/ particle, as far as my understanding allows, is the intensifier particle from Hindi and other MILs. It is located consistently following the agent like in a Hindi sentence. This demonstrates, perhaps that the grammatical scaffolding of spoken Sanskrit relies implicitly on the syntactical structure of MILs like Hindi as a potential first language (L1) of a speaker. Contextualising some more, I have heard this particle used by my language consultants whose L1s are Malvi, Hindi, Assamese and Nepali. Below are some brief examples to clarify my query. 1) Hindi mai? *to* ghar (ko) j?t? h?? 2) Sanskrit aha? *to* g?he gacch?mi As a Hindi speaker myself, I find I am also using this /to/ particle in the same way to create emphasis. 3) aha? *to *bubhuk?? asmi I understand that the particle /tu/ in Sanskrit serves a similar semantic function and I'm guessing it is the historical precedent of /to/. However, my consultants are not using /tu/ they are using /to/! For an audible example, in the latter stages (1 min 57-58 sec) of this clip you can here the phrase 4) aha? t*o* sa?sk?ta? j?n?mi' The speaker in this clip is an L1 speaker of Malvi. More specifically Umawadi Malvi, which is the dialect of Rajgarh Jhila, MP. Reiterating my query more precisely, can I consider this to be a case of code-mixing? Thanks in advance for helping to clarify this point of interest for me. All the best, Patrick McCartney PhD Candidate School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Australia: +61 487 398 354 Germany: +49 157 5469 4045 India: +91 98 73 893 945 - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile * - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZHJVkhVBPc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern at verizon.net Thu Jun 4 18:42:49 2015 From: emstern at verizon.net (Elliot M. Stern) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 15 14:42:49 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] /to/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <570E1096-E81B-4840-8FF5-73EF484A97CC@verizon.net> taavat Sent from my iPhone: 267-240-8418 Elliot > On Jun 4, 2015, at 13:35, patrick mccartney wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > I'm currently collecting some data on spoken Sanskrit. > > One dominant feature I have noticed in several different language nests across geographically diverse parts of North India is the use of /to/. During countless conversations over the last two months I have heard this particle used many times, albeit always in the same syntactic position and for the same semantic reason. > > My question regards whether this /to/ particle is in any way to be considered a Sanskrit particle or not? > > > This /to/ particle, as far as my understanding allows, is the intensifier particle from Hindi and other MILs. It is located consistently following the agent like in a Hindi sentence. This demonstrates, perhaps that the grammatical scaffolding of spoken Sanskrit relies implicitly on the syntactical structure of MILs like Hindi as a potential first language (L1) of a speaker. Contextualising some more, I have heard this particle used by my language consultants whose L1s are Malvi, Hindi, Assamese and Nepali. > > > Below are some brief examples to clarify my query. > > > 1) Hindi mai? to ghar (ko) j?t? h?? > > > > 2) Sanskrit aha? to g?he gacch?mi > > > As a Hindi speaker myself, I find I am also using this /to/ particle in the same way to create emphasis. > > 3) aha? to bubhuk?? asmi > > > I understand that the particle /tu/ in Sanskrit serves a similar semantic function and I'm guessing it is the historical precedent of /to/. However, my consultants are not using /tu/ they are using /to/! > > > For an audible example, in the latter stages (1 min 57-58 sec) of this clip you can here the phrase > > 4) aha? to sa?sk?ta? j?n?mi' > > > The speaker in this clip is an L1 speaker of Malvi. More specifically Umawadi Malvi, which is the dialect of Rajgarh Jhila, MP. > > > Reiterating my query more precisely, can I consider this to be a case of code-mixing? > > Thanks in advance for helping to clarify this point of interest for me. > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney > > PhD Candidate > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > > Australia: +61 487 398 354 > Germany: +49 157 5469 4045 > India: +91 98 73 893 945 > > https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile > https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZHJVkhVBPc > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg > > http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Thu Jun 4 19:04:37 2015 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 15 19:04:37 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] /to/ In-Reply-To: <570E1096-E81B-4840-8FF5-73EF484A97CC@verizon.net> Message-ID: The etymology t?vat is on the mark; but the question is whether to is used like t?vat (as it is found frequently in northern spoken Sanskrit, as well as in dramatic dialogue), or whether its used more like Hindi to. To check on the latter possibility it would be good to see whether to is used not just after subjects (or other, fronted elements), as a kind of topic marker, but in other positions as well, such as vah la?k? sundar to hai (lekin c?l?k bh? hai) or the kind of question one might ask a taxi driver who?s putting one?s luggage on the roof-carrier: gireg? to nah??? (The following site offers a fairly broad discussion of the uses of Hindi to: http://hindilanguage.info/hindi-grammar/particles/emphatic-particles/.) At any rate, the use of to noticed by Patrick McCartney looks like a transfer from Hindi. Whether one would want to consider this code mixing or simply borrowing (by transfer) is more a philosophical than linguistic question. lekin in?ares?i? to hai. Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 4 Jun 2015, at 13:42, Elliot M. Stern > wrote: taavat Sent from my iPhone: 267-240-8418 Elliot On Jun 4, 2015, at 13:35, patrick mccartney > wrote: Dear Friends, I'm currently collecting some data on spoken Sanskrit. One dominant feature I have noticed in several different language nests across geographically diverse parts of North India is the use of /to/. During countless conversations over the last two months I have heard this particle used many times, albeit always in the same syntactic position and for the same semantic reason. My question regards whether this /to/ particle is in any way to be considered a Sanskrit particle or not? This /to/ particle, as far as my understanding allows, is the intensifier particle from Hindi and other MILs. It is located consistently following the agent like in a Hindi sentence. This demonstrates, perhaps that the grammatical scaffolding of spoken Sanskrit relies implicitly on the syntactical structure of MILs like Hindi as a potential first language (L1) of a speaker. Contextualising some more, I have heard this particle used by my language consultants whose L1s are Malvi, Hindi, Assamese and Nepali. Below are some brief examples to clarify my query. 1) Hindi mai? to ghar (ko) j?t? h?? 2) Sanskrit aha? to g?he gacch?mi As a Hindi speaker myself, I find I am also using this /to/ particle in the same way to create emphasis. 3) aha? to bubhuk?? asmi I understand that the particle /tu/ in Sanskrit serves a similar semantic function and I'm guessing it is the historical precedent of /to/. However, my consultants are not using /tu/ they are using /to/! For an audible example, in the latter stages (1 min 57-58 sec) of this clip you can here the phrase 4) aha? to sa?sk?ta? j?n?mi' The speaker in this clip is an L1 speaker of Malvi. More specifically Umawadi Malvi, which is the dialect of Rajgarh Jhila, MP. Reiterating my query more precisely, can I consider this to be a case of code-mixing? Thanks in advance for helping to clarify this point of interest for me. All the best, Patrick McCartney PhD Candidate School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Australia: +61 487 398 354 Germany: +49 157 5469 4045 India: +91 98 73 893 945 * https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile * https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZHJVkhVBPc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 13:24:51 2015 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 15 18:54:51 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] TWO INSCRIPTIONS OF RATHODA BHARAMALLA, SAM. 1599 INSCRIPTION Message-ID: Dear Members I am searching for 1. TWO INSCRIPTIONS OF RATHODA BHARAMALLA, SAM. 1599 - K. M. Bhadri (published in the Journal of the epigraphical society Vol 5-7) 2. The same article is published in Vol-2 article no 16, Studies in Indian Epigraphy : Journal of the Epigraphical Society of India,Vedams Books Please share pdf of these twin inscriptions Regards Rupali Mokashi http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From olga.nowicka00 at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 18:00:57 2015 From: olga.nowicka00 at gmail.com (Olga Nowicka) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 15 20:00:57 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Govindan=C4=81tha,_author_of_=C5=9Aa=E1=B9=85kar=C4=81c=C4=81ryacarita?= Message-ID: Dear David Reigle, Christophe Vielle and Hartmut Buescher - thank you very much for your quick responses. I appreciate your help. Best regards, Olga Nowicka -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From olga.nowicka00 at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 18:17:55 2015 From: olga.nowicka00 at gmail.com (Olga Nowicka) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 15 20:17:55 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Annual Reports of Archaeological Department, Cochin State (Trippunittura, 1924-25) Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Would anyone happen to have *Annual Reports of Archaeological Department, Cochin State *(Trippunittura, 1924-25)? I would be highly obliged for help. Best regards, Olga Nowicka -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 19:04:49 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 15 00:34:49 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] /to/ Message-ID: >>I understand that the particle /tu/ in Sanskrit serves a similar semantic function and I'm guessing it is the historical precedent of /to/. Your guess is right for raamastu = raam to kind of structures. >>However, my consultants are not using /tu/ they are using /to/! >>Reiterating my query more precisely, can I consider this to be a case of code-mixing? Obviously, it is code-mixing only. Because there is no 'to' in Sanskrit and 'tu' is the correct form to be used in all the examples cited. -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 21:45:56 2015 From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 15 17:45:56 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Resources Message-ID: Hello All, I am currently working on history of the academic study of Hinduism. I would greatly appreciate your help if you could direct me to books and any other resources on this subject. Thank you. Lavanya Sent from my iPhone From slindqui at mail.smu.edu Sat Jun 6 00:28:56 2015 From: slindqui at mail.smu.edu (Lindquist, Steven) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 15 00:28:56 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Annual South Asia Conference (SMU/SARII), "Transformations in the Temples of South India: People, Rituals, and Deities, " Oct. 10, 2015 Message-ID: Please pardon the cross-posting. Asian Studies at SMU and the South Asia Research and Information Institute (Dallas, TX) are pleased to announce our annual conference. Please spread the word to any and all that you think may be interested. If you are considering attending and wish for more information on Dallas, etc. please feel free to contact me directly. My best, Steven STEVEN LINDQUIST, PH.D. ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, RELIGIOUS STUDIES DIRECTOR, ASIAN STUDIES ____________________ Dedman College of Humanities and Sciences, SMU PO Box 750202 | Dallas | TX | 75275 Email: slindqui at smu.edu Web: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui Asian Studies (Southern Methodist University) and the South Asia Research and Information Institute (Dallas, Texas) present: Transformations in the Temples of South India: People, Rituals, and Deities 9:00 AM - 5:00 PM Saturday, October 10, 2015 McCord Auditorium, Dallas Hall, Southern Methodist University Presenters: Temples and the State in South India in the Colonial and Post-Colonial Periods Christopher Fuller, Ph.D. London School of Economics, United Kingdom (Emeritus) Unveiling Changes of Faith in the Medieval Tamil-Speaking South: The Cases of Tiruppara?ku??am and Tiruccent?r Val?rie Gillet, Ph.D. ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient, Pondicherry, India Who has the Authority to Make Changes in ?r? Vai??ava Temples? Vasudha Narayanan, Ph.D. The University of Florida, Gainesville >From Priestesses to Performers: Changes in Women?s Roles in Tamil Temples S. Palaniappan, Ph.D. South Asia Research and Information Institute, Dallas Dramatic Changes in the Chidambaram Temple over Time Paul Younger, Ph.D. McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario (Emeritus) Chair: Steven Lindquist, Ph.D. Southern Methodist University This event is free and open to the public. For free registration, email temples at sarii.org with names of attendees, email address, and telephone number. Updated information (abstracts, etc.) will be posted to smu.edu/asianstudies and www.sarii.org when available. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 08:00:54 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 10:00:54 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC Message-ID: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Mon Jun 8 08:12:53 2015 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 11:12:53 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433751182-1506291.8343855.ft588Csou013584@rs143.luxsci.com> "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. How racist? h.r. > On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk Mon Jun 8 14:04:47 2015 From: SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk (Geoffrey Samuel) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 14:04:47 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: <1433751182-1506291.8343855.ft588Csou013584@rs143.luxsci.com> Message-ID: If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. That seems a reasonable and defensible position. Geoffrey ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Howard Resnick
Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12 To: Dominik Wujastyk Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile". How racist? h.r. On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Mon Jun 8 14:09:35 2015 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 17:09:35 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433772603-8743297.46436967.ft58E9aOc005008@rs143.luxsci.com> As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? Thanks, Howard > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel wrote: > > If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. > > That seems a reasonable and defensible position. > > Geoffrey > From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Howard Resnick
> > Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12 > To: Dominik Wujastyk > Cc: Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC > > "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. > > How racist? > > h.r. > > >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: >> >> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk Mon Jun 8 14:32:53 2015 From: BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk (Simon Brodbeck) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 14:32:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: <1433772603-8743297.46436967.ft58E9aOc005008@rs143.luxsci.com> Message-ID: Dear Howard, I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as "noble" or something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as "Aryan". Under the latter, the OED reads as follows ("arya" has no entry): A. adj. 1. a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, and sometimes Japhetic; by others restricted to the Asiatic portion of these. absol., the original Aryan or Arian language. b. spec. Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. 2. Under the Nazi r?gime (1933-45) applied to the inhabitants of Germany of non-Jewish extraction. B. n. 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. 2. spec. under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2). I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. But I can't speak for him. All the best, Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Howard Resnick Sent: 08 June 2015 15:10 To: Geoffrey Samuel Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj does not state that he takes 'Aryan' as a racial, rather than a cultural, term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? Thanks, Howard On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel > wrote: If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. That seems a reasonable and defensible position. Geoffrey ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Howard Resnick
> Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12 To: Dominik Wujastyk Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile". How racist? h.r. On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Mon Jun 8 14:49:15 2015 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 17:49:15 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433775002-6332839.71636441.ft58EnGN3013601@rs143.luxsci.com> Thank you for this clarification: Still, neither A1 nor B1 below give explicitly racial definitions. B1 may logically refer to a multi-racial group speaking the same language. In America, for example, people of many races speak English. Further, ?racism? requires a belief in the superiority or inferiority of a particular race, rather than the association of a certain race with a particular body of literature. I understand the ugly history linked to the term ?Aryan?, but Bharadwaj deserves a fair day in court. I?m still not sure why Bharadwaj?s remarks, at least as given in the article, are ?racist.? Has he espoused explicitly racist views? Best, Howard > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:32 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): > > A. adj. > 1. > a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, and sometimes Japhetic; by others restricted to the Asiatic portion of these. absol., the original Aryan or Arian language. > b. spec. Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. > 2. Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of Germany of non-Jewish extraction. > > B. n. > 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. > 2. spec. under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2 ). > > I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. But I can?t speak for him. > > All the best, > Simon Brodbeck > Cardiff University > > > > From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info ] On Behalf Of Howard Resnick > Sent: 08 June 2015 15:10 > To: Geoffrey Samuel > Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC > > As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? > > Thanks, > Howard > > > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel > wrote: > > If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. > > That seems a reasonable and defensible position. > > Geoffrey > From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Howard Resnick
> > Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12 > To: Dominik Wujastyk > Cc: Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC > > "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. > > How racist? > > h.r. > > > On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andra.kleb at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 14:55:14 2015 From: andra.kleb at gmail.com (Andrey Klebanov) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 16:55:14 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: <1433775002-6332839.71636441.ft58EnGN3013601@rs143.luxsci.com> Message-ID: The main viv?d?spadam seems to be not the use of the word ?aryan? but the legitimacy of the so-called ?AMT?. See here, for example: http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-01-18/news/58200761_1_sanskrit-department-aryans-modern-india best, Andrey > On 08.06.2015, at 16:49, Howard Resnick
wrote: > > Thank you for this clarification: > > Still, neither A1 nor B1 below give explicitly racial definitions. > > B1 may logically refer to a multi-racial group speaking the same language. In America, for example, people of many races speak English. Further, ?racism? requires a belief in the superiority or inferiority of a particular race, rather than the association of a certain race with a particular body of literature. > > I understand the ugly history linked to the term ?Aryan?, but Bharadwaj deserves a fair day in court. > > I?m still not sure why Bharadwaj?s remarks, at least as given in the article, are ?racist.? Has he espoused explicitly racist views? > > Best, > Howard > > > >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:32 PM, Simon Brodbeck > wrote: >> >> Dear Howard, >> >> I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): >> >> A. adj. >> 1. >> a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, and sometimes Japhetic; by others restricted to the Asiatic portion of these. absol., the original Aryan or Arian language. >> b. spec. Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. >> 2. Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of Germany of non-Jewish extraction. >> >> B. n. >> 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. >> 2. spec. under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2 ). >> >> I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. But I can?t speak for him. >> >> All the best, >> Simon Brodbeck >> Cardiff University >> >> >> >> From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info ] On Behalf Of Howard Resnick >> Sent: 08 June 2015 15:10 >> To: Geoffrey Samuel >> Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC >> >> As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? >> >> Thanks, >> Howard >> >> >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel > wrote: >> >> If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. >> >> That seems a reasonable and defensible position. >> >> Geoffrey >> From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Howard Resnick
> >> Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12 >> To: Dominik Wujastyk >> Cc: Indology List >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC >> >> "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. >> >> How racist? >> >> h.r. >> >> >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: >> >> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk Mon Jun 8 14:58:04 2015 From: SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk (Geoffrey Samuel) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 14:58:04 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: <1433775002-6332839.71636441.ft58EnGN3013601@rs143.luxsci.com> Message-ID: As I pointed out, Chakrabarti did not say that Bharadwaj's remarks were racist. The Telegraph's headline did perhaps, but Chakrabarti did not, and I imagine given the current situation in India that he was being quite careful what he said, and deserves not to be misquoted. Geoffrey ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Howard Resnick
Sent: 08 June 2015 15:49 To: Simon Brodbeck Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC Thank you for this clarification: Still, neither A1 nor B1 below give explicitly racial definitions. B1 may logically refer to a multi-racial group speaking the same language. In America, for example, people of many races speak English. Further, ?racism? requires a belief in the superiority or inferiority of a particular race, rather than the association of a certain race with a particular body of literature. I understand the ugly history linked to the term ?Aryan?, but Bharadwaj deserves a fair day in court. I?m still not sure why Bharadwaj?s remarks, at least as given in the article, are ?racist.? Has he espoused explicitly racist views? Best, Howard On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:32 PM, Simon Brodbeck > wrote: Dear Howard, I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): A. adj. 1. a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, and sometimes Japhetic; by others restricted to the Asiatic portion of these. absol., the original Aryan or Arian language. b. spec. Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. 2. Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of Germany of non-Jewish extraction. B. n. 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. 2. spec. under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2). I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. But I can?t speak for him. All the best, Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Howard Resnick Sent: 08 June 2015 15:10 To: Geoffrey Samuel Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? Thanks, Howard On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel > wrote: If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. That seems a reasonable and defensible position. Geoffrey ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Howard Resnick
> Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12 To: Dominik Wujastyk Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. How racist? h.r. On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Mon Jun 8 14:59:52 2015 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 17:59:52 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433775663-5138419.0276617.ft58ExqqD006598@rs143.luxsci.com> Thank you Geoffrey. I agree. Howard > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Geoffrey Samuel wrote: > > As I pointed out, Chakrabarti did not say that Bharadwaj's remarks were racist. The Telegraph's headline did perhaps, but Chakrabarti did not, and I imagine given the current situation in India that he was being quite careful what he said, and deserves not to be misquoted. > > Geoffrey > From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Howard Resnick
> > Sent: 08 June 2015 15:49 > To: Simon Brodbeck > Cc: Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC > > Thank you for this clarification: > > Still, neither A1 nor B1 below give explicitly racial definitions. > > B1 may logically refer to a multi-racial group speaking the same language. In America, for example, people of many races speak English. Further, ?racism? requires a belief in the superiority or inferiority of a particular race, rather than the association of a certain race with a particular body of literature. > > I understand the ugly history linked to the term ?Aryan?, but Bharadwaj deserves a fair day in court. > > I?m still not sure why Bharadwaj?s remarks, at least as given in the article, are ?racist.? Has he espoused explicitly racist views? > > Best, > Howard > > > >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:32 PM, Simon Brodbeck > wrote: >> >> Dear Howard, >> >> I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): >> >> A. adj. >> 1. >> a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, and sometimes Japhetic; by others restricted to the Asiatic portion of these. absol., the original Aryan or Arian language. >> b. spec. Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. >> 2. Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of Germany of non-Jewish extraction. >> >> B. n. >> 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. >> 2. spec. under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2 ). >> >> I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. But I can?t speak for him. >> >> All the best, >> Simon Brodbeck >> Cardiff University >> >> >> >> From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info ] On Behalf Of Howard Resnick >> Sent: 08 June 2015 15:10 >> To: Geoffrey Samuel >> Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC >> >> As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? >> >> Thanks, >> Howard >> >> >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel > wrote: >> >> If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. >> >> That seems a reasonable and defensible position. >> >> Geoffrey >> From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Howard Resnick
> >> Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12 >> To: Dominik Wujastyk >> Cc: Indology List >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC >> >> "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. >> >> How racist? >> >> h.r. >> >> >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: >> >> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Mon Jun 8 15:08:30 2015 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 18:08:30 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433776144-8039456.83260308.ft58F8VoJ029080@rs143.luxsci.com> Thank you for this helpful article. Kindly note: 1. As Geoffrey noted in the other article, here too Bharadwaj does not appear to make any clearly racist remark. 2. Ironically, it seems he wants to remove race from the historical analysis, unless I misunderstood the following: ?...the professor also says that the Dravidian identity was also conjured up as a counter to the Aryan construct. That the Aryan-Dravidian conflict is a myth has been validated by recent genetic studies as well.? 3. I certainly do not endorse Bharadwaj?s views, but respected scholars like Edwin Bryant (In Quest of the Origins of Vedic Culture) show that the issue is, at the very least, a bit more complex than one might presume from some accounts. 4. That the non-specialist authors of both articles seem to bash Bharadwaj in itself reveals an interesting slice of contemporary cultural history. Thanks again, Howard > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:55 PM, Andrey Klebanov wrote: > > The main viv?d?spadam seems to be not the use of the word ?aryan? but the legitimacy of the so-called ?AMT?. See here, for example: > http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-01-18/news/58200761_1_sanskrit-department-aryans-modern-india > > best, > Andrey > >> On 08.06.2015, at 16:49, Howard Resnick
> wrote: >> >> Thank you for this clarification: >> >> Still, neither A1 nor B1 below give explicitly racial definitions. >> >> B1 may logically refer to a multi-racial group speaking the same language. In America, for example, people of many races speak English. Further, ?racism? requires a belief in the superiority or inferiority of a particular race, rather than the association of a certain race with a particular body of literature. >> >> I understand the ugly history linked to the term ?Aryan?, but Bharadwaj deserves a fair day in court. >> >> I?m still not sure why Bharadwaj?s remarks, at least as given in the article, are ?racist.? Has he espoused explicitly racist views? >> >> Best, >> Howard >> >> >> >>> On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:32 PM, Simon Brodbeck > wrote: >>> >>> Dear Howard, >>> >>> I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): >>> >>> A. adj. >>> 1. >>> a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, and sometimes Japhetic; by others restricted to the Asiatic portion of these. absol., the original Aryan or Arian language. >>> b. spec. Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. >>> 2. Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of Germany of non-Jewish extraction. >>> >>> B. n. >>> 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. >>> 2. spec. under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2 ). >>> >>> I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. But I can?t speak for him. >>> >>> All the best, >>> Simon Brodbeck >>> Cardiff University >>> >>> >>> >>> From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info ] On Behalf Of Howard Resnick >>> Sent: 08 June 2015 15:10 >>> To: Geoffrey Samuel >>> Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List >>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC >>> >>> As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Howard >>> >>> >>> On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel > wrote: >>> >>> If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. >>> >>> That seems a reasonable and defensible position. >>> >>> Geoffrey >>> From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Howard Resnick
> >>> Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12 >>> To: Dominik Wujastyk >>> Cc: Indology List >>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC >>> >>> "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. >>> >>> How racist? >>> >>> h.r. >>> >>> >>> On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: >>> >>> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From h.arganisjuarez at yahoo.com.mx Mon Jun 8 16:21:34 2015 From: h.arganisjuarez at yahoo.com.mx (Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 16:21:34 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Called for papers. Message-ID: <317514325.3670392.1433780494476.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Honorables Members of Indological list:We are called for paper for the next Academical Journal of Social Sciences of UIE.Please if some of you want to edite a paper, send my a e-mail.Wit my best wishes.PD. Is some body is working in the next issue, I invited to check this paper.Lord Krishna Recognized by Scholars Long Time Ago | ? | | ? | | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | | Lord Krishna Recognized by Scholars Long Time AgoLord Krishna Recognized by Scholars Long Time Ago | | | | Ver en www.academia.edu | Vista previa por Yahoo | | | | ? | ??Dr. Horacio Francisco ArganisLic. M.A. Ph. D. Catedr?tico Investigador de la Universidad Internacional Euroamericana. Departamento de Filosof?a y Religi?n Comparada. www.uie.edu.es -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 17:24:18 2015 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 13:24:18 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It seems to me that Chakrabarti was expressing a very reasonable frustration with Bharadwaj's attempt to revive that long dead horse: the Aryan migration theory. I agree with Geoffrey that Chakrabarti should take care not to speak too bluntly about this. Best wishes, George Thompson On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Geoffrey Samuel wrote: > As I pointed out, Chakrabarti did not say that Bharadwaj's remarks were > racist. The Telegraph's headline did perhaps, but Chakrabarti did not, and > I imagine given the current situation in India that he was being quite > careful what he said, and deserves not to be misquoted. > > > Geoffrey > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Howard Resnick
> *Sent:* 08 June 2015 15:49 > *To:* Simon Brodbeck > > *Cc:* Indology List > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology > at the IHRC > > Thank you for this clarification: > > Still, neither A1 nor B1 below give explicitly racial definitions. > > B1 may logically refer to a multi-racial group speaking the same > language. In America, for example, people of many races speak English. > Further, ?racism? requires a belief in the superiority or inferiority of a > particular race, rather than the association of a certain race with a > particular body of literature. > > I understand the ugly history linked to the term ?Aryan?, but Bharadwaj > deserves a fair day in court. > > I?m still not sure why Bharadwaj?s remarks, at least as given in the > article, are ?racist.? Has he espoused explicitly racist views? > > Best, > Howard > > > > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:32 PM, Simon Brodbeck > wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a > semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word > Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or > something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as > ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): > > *A.* adj. > *1.* > a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, > which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and > Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called *Indo-European*, > *Indo-Germanic*, and sometimes *Japhetic*; by others restricted to the > Asiatic portion of these. *absol.*, the original Aryan or Arian language. > b. *spec.* Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. > *2.* Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of > Germany of non-Jewish extraction. > > *B.* n. > 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the > ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. > *2.* *spec.* under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2 > ). > > I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and > B1. But I can?t speak for him. > > All the best, > Simon Brodbeck > Cardiff University > > > > *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info > ] *On Behalf Of *Howard Resnick > *Sent:* 08 June 2015 15:10 > *To:* Geoffrey Samuel > *Cc:* Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology > at the IHRC > > As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj > states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj > does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, > term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? > > Thanks, > Howard > > > > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel > wrote: > > If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph > article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was > 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a > waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically > referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon > be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. > > That seems a reasonable and defensible position. > > Geoffrey > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Howard Resnick
> *Sent:* 08 June 2015 09:12 > *To:* Dominik Wujastyk > *Cc:* Indology List > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology > at the IHRC > > "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology > with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research > project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. > > How racist? > > h.r. > > > > On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Mon Jun 8 17:26:19 2015 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 22:56:19 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think Dilip Chakrabarty is actually thinking about racism from a totally different angle. What is racist is the notion that 'aryans'--the speakers of Old Indo-Aryan, or what have you--originated within the subcontinent, and that they predate and include the Indus Valley Civilization. Bharadvaj clearly wants to demonstrate that the composers of the Vedas were indigenous, and of an antiquity greater than the Indus Valley Civilization. This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: > Dear Howard, > > > > I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a > semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word > Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or > something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as > ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): > > > > *A.* adj. > > *1.* > > a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, > which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and > Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called *Indo-European*, > *Indo-Germanic*, and sometimes *Japhetic*; by others restricted to the > Asiatic portion of these. *absol.*, the original Aryan or Arian language. > > b. *spec.* Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. > > *2.* Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of > Germany of non-Jewish extraction. > > > > *B.* n. > > 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the > ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. > > *2.* *spec.* under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2 > ). > > > > I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. > But I can?t speak for him. > > > > All the best, > > Simon Brodbeck > > Cardiff University > > > > > > > > *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *On Behalf > Of *Howard Resnick > *Sent:* 08 June 2015 15:10 > *To:* Geoffrey Samuel > *Cc:* Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology > at the IHRC > > > > As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj > states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj > does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, > term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? > > > > Thanks, > > Howard > > > > > > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel > wrote: > > > > If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph > article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was > 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a > waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically > referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon > be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. > > > > That seems a reasonable and defensible position. > > > > Geoffrey > ------------------------------ > > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Howard Resnick
> *Sent:* 08 June 2015 09:12 > *To:* Dominik Wujastyk > *Cc:* Indology List > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology > at the IHRC > > > > "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with > Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project > committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. > > > > How racist? > > > > h.r. > > > > > > On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 17:32:34 2015 From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 13:32:34 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 29, Issue 7aryans and genetic evidence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <984F871A-EF58-42EF-8CAC-F9B19244DEDC@gmail.com> Hello all, Since the discussion is on Aryans and genetic evidence, I am including link to my article on the subject for your kind perusal. Thank you, Lavanya https://www.academia.edu/7893126/Genetic_Evidence_of_Early_Human_Migrations_in_the_Indian_Ocean_Region_Disproves_Aryan_Migration_Invasion_Theories Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 8, 2015, at 12:00 PM, indology-request at list.indology.info wrote: > > Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to > indology at list.indology.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > indology-request at list.indology.info > > You can reach the person managing the list at > indology-owner at list.indology.info > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC > (Dominik Wujastyk) > 2. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the > IHRC (Howard Resnick) > 3. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the > IHRC (Geoffrey Samuel) > 4. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the > IHRC (Howard Resnick) > 5. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the > IHRC (Simon Brodbeck) > 6. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the > IHRC (Howard Resnick) > 7. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the > IHRC (Andrey Klebanov) > 8. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the > IHRC (Geoffrey Samuel) > 9. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the > IHRC (Howard Resnick) > 10. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the > IHRC (Howard Resnick) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 10:00:54 +0200 > From: Dominik Wujastyk > To: Indology > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at > the IHRC > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp > From hr at ivs.edu Mon Jun 8 17:49:16 2015 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 20:49:16 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1433785803-6133543.75109734.ft58HnFak010635@rs143.luxsci.com> Jesse atrributes to Bharadwaja the following argument, which I will state formally to facilitate clear analysis. (I believe that Jesse?s argument entails and requires an unstated premise 2. Premise 1: Anything good (especially in South Asia) must originate in the womb of Bharata Mata. Premise 2 (Implied): Old Indo-Aryan culture is the original culture of Bharata Mata. Premise 3: The Indus Valley Civilization is good. Conclusion: Therefore the IVC must come from Bharata Mata?s original, defining Vedic culture. If Bharadwaja makes this argument, then one might describe his view as ?extremely racist and chauvanistic.? To argue for a greater antiquity for the Vedas, or or to explore possible connections between the IVC and the Vedic civilization, is not in and of itself a racist or chauvanist project, nor is it necessarily a sign of hopeless obscurantism. Best, Howard On Jun 8, 2015, at 8:26 PM, Jesse Knutson wrote: > > I think Dilip Chakrabarty is actually thinking about racism from a totally different angle. What is racist is the notion that 'aryans'--the speakers of Old Indo-Aryan, or what have you--originated within the subcontinent, and that they predate and include the Indus Valley Civilization. Bharadvaj clearly wants to demonstrate that the composers of the Vedas were indigenous, and of an antiquity greater than the Indus Valley Civilization. This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Simon Brodbeck > wrote: > Dear Howard, > > > > I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): > > > > A. adj. > > 1. > > a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, and sometimes Japhetic; by others restricted to the Asiatic portion of these. absol., the original Aryan or Arian language. > > b. spec. Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. > > 2. Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of Germany of non-Jewish extraction. > > > > B. n. > > 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. > > 2. spec. under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2 ). > > > > I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. But I can?t speak for him. > > > > All the best, > > Simon Brodbeck > > Cardiff University > > > > > > > > From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info ] On Behalf Of Howard Resnick > Sent: 08 June 2015 15:10 > To: Geoffrey Samuel > Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC > > > > As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? > > > > Thanks, > > Howard > > > > > > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel > wrote: > > > > If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. > > > > That seems a reasonable and defensible position. > > > > Geoffrey > > From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Howard Resnick
> > Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12 > To: Dominik Wujastyk > Cc: Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC > > > > "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. > > > > How racist? > > > > h.r. > > > > > > On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > > > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 452A Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Mon Jun 8 18:21:56 2015 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 21:21:56 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 29, Issue 7aryans and genetic evidence In-Reply-To: <984F871A-EF58-42EF-8CAC-F9B19244DEDC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1433787723-6061524.40648507.ft58ILuaW013270@rs143.luxsci.com> Thank you Lavanya for your interesting article. Best, Howard > On Jun 8, 2015, at 8:32 PM, Lavanya Vemsani wrote: > > Hello all, > Since the discussion is on Aryans and genetic evidence, I am including link to my article on the subject for your kind perusal. > Thank you, > Lavanya > https://www.academia.edu/7893126/Genetic_Evidence_of_Early_Human_Migrations_in_the_Indian_Ocean_Region_Disproves_Aryan_Migration_Invasion_Theories > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 12:00 PM, indology-request at list.indology.info wrote: >> >> Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to >> indology at list.indology.info >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info >> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> indology-request at list.indology.info >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC >> (Dominik Wujastyk) >> 2. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the >> IHRC (Howard Resnick) >> 3. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the >> IHRC (Geoffrey Samuel) >> 4. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the >> IHRC (Howard Resnick) >> 5. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the >> IHRC (Simon Brodbeck) >> 6. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the >> IHRC (Howard Resnick) >> 7. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the >> IHRC (Andrey Klebanov) >> 8. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the >> IHRC (Geoffrey Samuel) >> 9. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the >> IHRC (Howard Resnick) >> 10. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the >> IHRC (Howard Resnick) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 10:00:54 +0200 >> From: Dominik Wujastyk >> To: Indology >> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at >> the IHRC >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp >> From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 19:15:50 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 15 00:45:50 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC Message-ID: Apart from Prof. Howard Resnick's analysis, the following from Prof. Jesse Knutston also deserves attention: when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. 1. 'IVC was a highly developed Civilization' has the following assumptions : a. civilizations are superior to non-civilizational cultures. b. IVC has that superiority of being a civilizational culture. This is confirmed by the expression 'IVC cultural acievements' 2. 'which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language' has this assumption: The language spoken by the IVC people is clearly, undisputedly known through the decipherment of the seals and other such 'written' evidences. Assumption under 1. is racist, evolutionist and has urban chauvinism. Assumtion under 2. is in contradiction with the fact that the language of the IVC speakers is still under dispute and not yet clearly established. -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Mon Jun 8 19:57:44 2015 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 15 19:57:44 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All, If we had access to more of the context in which Dilip Chakrabarti is reported to have made his comments, we might perhaps be able to have a better idea of what he was referring to. What may be of some relevance is that in his Colonial Indology: Sociopolitics of the ancient Indian past (1977), Dilip Chakrabarti expressly claims that the idea that the ?Aryans? came from outside India is a ?racist myth? (p. 158). He gives an extensive catalogue of western attempts at defining the ?Aryans? and their Vedic opponents in racial terms. His major specific argument against the outside origin is the well-known one that there is no skeletal evidence for the arrival of a new population into South Asia during the entire 2nd millennium BC. He notes that there later, known incursions likewise have left no skeletal traces and explains this fact as follows ?Looked at from this point of view, the invasions, which are considered foreign invasions in the study of Indian history all originated precisely in this interaction area [between the Oxus and the Indus]. Geopolitically, these invasions, inclusive of the Muslim invasions right up to the invasion of Nadir Shah ?, can hardly be called entirely alien in the subcontinental context.? (1977: 225) What he fails to address that, if the ?Aryans?, i.e. speakers of Indo-Aryan, came from the outside they would have had to come by the same route ? Best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock On 8 Jun 2015, at 12:26, Jesse Knutson > wrote: I think Dilip Chakrabarty is actually thinking about racism from a totally different angle. What is racist is the notion that 'aryans'--the speakers of Old Indo-Aryan, or what have you--originated within the subcontinent, and that they predate and include the Indus Valley Civilization. Bharadvaj clearly wants to demonstrate that the composers of the Vedas were indigenous, and of an antiquity greater than the Indus Valley Civilization. This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Simon Brodbeck > wrote: Dear Howard, I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): A. adj. 1. a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, and sometimes Japhetic; by others restricted to the Asiatic portion of these. absol., the original Aryan or Arian language. b. spec. Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. 2. Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of Germany of non-Jewish extraction. B. n. 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. 2. spec. under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2). I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. But I can?t speak for him. All the best, Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Howard Resnick Sent: 08 June 2015 15:10 To: Geoffrey Samuel Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? Thanks, Howard On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel > wrote: If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. That seems a reasonable and defensible position. Geoffrey ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Howard Resnick
> Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12 To: Dominik Wujastyk Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. How racist? h.r. On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Tue Jun 9 04:36:36 2015 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 15 10:06:36 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting. I didn't know that. So if I understand correctly, DC doesn't think the speakers of OIA came from outside? I understand if he considers the way the whole 'Aryan invasion/migration' was characterized to have been racist. But to go the next step and say that no migration ever happened is silly. But this is precisely what Bharadvaj believes he is going to prove. So if DC and Bharadvaj have the same view, where is the disagreement? I am confused again. Best,J On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 1:27 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: > Dear All, > > If we had access to more of the context in which Dilip Chakrabarti is > reported to have made his comments, we might perhaps be able to have a > better idea of what he was referring to. > > What may be of some relevance is that in his *Colonial Indology: > Sociopolitics of the ancient Indian past *(1977), Dilip Chakrabarti > expressly claims that the idea that the ?Aryans? came from outside India is > a ?racist myth? (p. 158). He gives an extensive catalogue of western > attempts at defining the ?Aryans? and their Vedic opponents in racial > terms. His major specific argument against the outside origin is the > well-known one that there is no skeletal evidence for the arrival of a new > population into South Asia during the entire 2nd millennium BC. He notes > that there later, known incursions likewise have left no skeletal traces > and explains this fact as follows ?Looked at from this point of view, the > invasions, which are considered foreign invasions in the study of Indian > history all originated precisely in this interaction area [between the Oxus > and the Indus]. Geopolitically, these invasions, inclusive of the Muslim > invasions right up to the invasion of Nadir Shah ?, can hardly be called > entirely alien in the subcontinental context.? (1977: 225) What he fails > to address that, if the ?Aryans?, i.e. speakers of Indo-Aryan, came from > the outside they would have had to come by the same route ? > > Best wishes, > > Hans Henrich Hock > > On 8 Jun 2015, at 12:26, Jesse Knutson wrote: > > I think Dilip Chakrabarty is actually thinking about racism from a > totally different angle. What is racist is the notion that 'aryans'--the > speakers of Old Indo-Aryan, or what have you--originated within the > subcontinent, and that they predate and include the Indus Valley > Civilization. Bharadvaj clearly wants to demonstrate that the composers of > the Vedas were indigenous, and of an antiquity greater than the Indus > Valley Civilization. This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural > chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. > Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the > Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of > greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or > Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the > speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Simon Brodbeck > wrote: > >> Dear Howard, >> >> >> >> I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a >> semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word >> Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or >> something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as >> ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): >> >> >> >> *A.* adj. >> >> *1.* >> >> a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, >> which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and >> Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called *Indo-European*, >> *Indo-Germanic*, and sometimes *Japhetic*; by others restricted to the >> Asiatic portion of these. *absol.*, the original Aryan or Arian language. >> >> b. *spec.* Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. >> >> *2.* Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of >> Germany of non-Jewish extraction. >> >> >> >> *B.* n. >> >> 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the >> ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. >> >> *2.* *spec.* under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2 >> >> ). >> >> >> >> I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. >> But I can?t speak for him. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Simon Brodbeck >> >> Cardiff University >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *On Behalf >> Of *Howard Resnick >> *Sent:* 08 June 2015 15:10 >> *To:* Geoffrey Samuel >> *Cc:* Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding >> indology at the IHRC >> >> >> >> As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj >> states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj >> does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, >> term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Howard >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel >> wrote: >> >> >> >> If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph >> article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was >> 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a >> waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically >> referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon >> be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. >> >> >> >> That seems a reasonable and defensible position. >> >> >> >> Geoffrey >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >> Howard Resnick
>> *Sent:* 08 June 2015 09:12 >> *To:* Dominik Wujastyk >> *Cc:* Indology List >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding >> indology at the IHRC >> >> >> >> "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology >> with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research >> project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. >> >> >> >> How racist? >> >> >> >> h.r. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk >> wrote: >> >> >> >> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific > Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 452A Spalding > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Tue Jun 9 07:12:39 2015 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 15 07:12:39 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, A small correction to Hans' email with useful reminder of Chakrabarti's book Colonial Indology: it was published in 1997, not 1997. I suspect the paradox may be explained as an instance of the condescension frequently displayed by scholars who position themselves in 'social sciences', as do many archaeologists, vis-?-vis scholars of Sanskrit in one or another the philological traditions that make up 'Indology'. I have the feeling that a hierarchy of sciences, with philolologists dangling at the bottom, is perhaps even more explicitly present in India than it is among scholars in the west, and the fact that Sanskrit studies in India don't generally attract the most talented students doesn't help. I have myself been accused by another well-known Indian historian of 'not being a historian'. From Chakrabarti's point of view, I suppose, the horse of the "racist theory" is already dead and no beating done by Sanskrit scholars is really needed to kill it again. It's certainly no coincidence that the Indological subdisciplines that Chakrabarti seems to care about most, epigraphy and palaeography, are those with which a historical archaeologist such as himself has most affinity. Texts less easily exploitable for historical purposes, such as those of the Vedic corpus, seem to interest him less. Best wishes, Arlo Griffiths ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 10:06:36 +0530 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu To: hhhock at illinois.edu Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC CC: indology at list.indology.info Interesting. I didn't know that. So if I understand correctly, DC doesn't think the speakers of OIA came from outside? I understand if he considers the way the whole 'Aryan invasion/migration' was characterized to have been racist. But to go the next step and say that no migration ever happened is silly. But this is precisely what Bharadvaj believes he is going to prove. So if DC and Bharadvaj have the same view, where is the disagreement? I am confused again. Best,J On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 1:27 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: Dear All, If we had access to more of the context in which Dilip Chakrabarti is reported to have made his comments, we might perhaps be able to have a better idea of what he was referring to. What may be of some relevance is that in his Colonial Indology: Sociopolitics of the ancient Indian past (1977), Dilip Chakrabarti expressly claims that the idea that the ?Aryans? came from outside India is a ?racist myth? (p. 158). He gives an extensive catalogue of western attempts at defining the ?Aryans? and their Vedic opponents in racial terms. His major specific argument against the outside origin is the well-known one that there is no skeletal evidence for the arrival of a new population into South Asia during the entire 2nd millennium BC. He notes that there later, known incursions likewise have left no skeletal traces and explains this fact as follows ?Looked at from this point of view, the invasions, which are considered foreign invasions in the study of Indian history all originated precisely in this interaction area [between the Oxus and the Indus]. Geopolitically, these invasions, inclusive of the Muslim invasions right up to the invasion of Nadir Shah ?, can hardly be called entirely alien in the subcontinental context.? (1977: 225) What he fails to address that, if the ?Aryans?, i.e. speakers of Indo-Aryan, came from the outside they would have had to come by the same route ? Best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock On 8 Jun 2015, at 12:26, Jesse Knutson wrote: I think Dilip Chakrabarty is actually thinking about racism from a totally different angle. What is racist is the notion that 'aryans'--the speakers of Old Indo-Aryan, or what have you--originated within the subcontinent, and that they predate and include the Indus Valley Civilization. Bharadvaj clearly wants to demonstrate that the composers of the Vedas were indigenous, and of an antiquity greater than the Indus Valley Civilization. This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: Dear Howard, I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): A. adj. 1. a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, and sometimes Japhetic; by others restricted to the Asiatic portion of these. absol., the original Aryan or Arian language. b. spec. Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. 2. Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of Germany of non-Jewish extraction. B. n. 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. 2. spec. under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2). I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. But I can?t speak for him. All the best, Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Howard Resnick Sent: 08 June 2015 15:10 To: Geoffrey Samuel Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? Thanks, Howard On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel wrote: If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. That seems a reasonable and defensible position. Geoffrey From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Howard Resnick
Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12 To: Dominik Wujastyk Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. How racist? h.r. On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and LiteraturesUniversity of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Tue Jun 9 08:17:35 2015 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 15 08:17:35 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: correction to my own correction: "1997, not 1977". very confusing, those 7s and 9s. AG From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com To: jknutson at hawaii.edu; hhhock at illinois.edu Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 07:12:39 +0000 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC CC: indology at list.indology.info Dear colleagues, A small correction to Hans' email with useful reminder of Chakrabarti's book Colonial Indology: it was published in 1997, not 1997. I suspect the paradox may be explained as an instance of the condescension frequently displayed by scholars who position themselves in 'social sciences', as do many archaeologists, vis-?-vis scholars of Sanskrit in one or another the philological traditions that make up 'Indology'. I have the feeling that a hierarchy of sciences, with philolologists dangling at the bottom, is perhaps even more explicitly present in India than it is among scholars in the west, and the fact that Sanskrit studies in India don't generally attract the most talented students doesn't help. I have myself been accused by another well-known Indian historian of 'not being a historian'. From Chakrabarti's point of view, I suppose, the horse of the "racist theory" is already dead and no beating done by Sanskrit scholars is really needed to kill it again. It's certainly no coincidence that the Indological subdisciplines that Chakrabarti seems to care about most, epigraphy and palaeography, are those with which a historical archaeologist such as himself has most affinity. Texts less easily exploitable for historical purposes, such as those of the Vedic corpus, seem to interest him less. Best wishes, Arlo Griffiths ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 10:06:36 +0530 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu To: hhhock at illinois.edu Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC CC: indology at list.indology.info Interesting. I didn't know that. So if I understand correctly, DC doesn't think the speakers of OIA came from outside? I understand if he considers the way the whole 'Aryan invasion/migration' was characterized to have been racist. But to go the next step and say that no migration ever happened is silly. But this is precisely what Bharadvaj believes he is going to prove. So if DC and Bharadvaj have the same view, where is the disagreement? I am confused again. Best,J On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 1:27 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: Dear All, If we had access to more of the context in which Dilip Chakrabarti is reported to have made his comments, we might perhaps be able to have a better idea of what he was referring to. What may be of some relevance is that in his Colonial Indology: Sociopolitics of the ancient Indian past (1977), Dilip Chakrabarti expressly claims that the idea that the ?Aryans? came from outside India is a ?racist myth? (p. 158). He gives an extensive catalogue of western attempts at defining the ?Aryans? and their Vedic opponents in racial terms. His major specific argument against the outside origin is the well-known one that there is no skeletal evidence for the arrival of a new population into South Asia during the entire 2nd millennium BC. He notes that there later, known incursions likewise have left no skeletal traces and explains this fact as follows ?Looked at from this point of view, the invasions, which are considered foreign invasions in the study of Indian history all originated precisely in this interaction area [between the Oxus and the Indus]. Geopolitically, these invasions, inclusive of the Muslim invasions right up to the invasion of Nadir Shah ?, can hardly be called entirely alien in the subcontinental context.? (1977: 225) What he fails to address that, if the ?Aryans?, i.e. speakers of Indo-Aryan, came from the outside they would have had to come by the same route ? Best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock On 8 Jun 2015, at 12:26, Jesse Knutson wrote: I think Dilip Chakrabarty is actually thinking about racism from a totally different angle. What is racist is the notion that 'aryans'--the speakers of Old Indo-Aryan, or what have you--originated within the subcontinent, and that they predate and include the Indus Valley Civilization. Bharadvaj clearly wants to demonstrate that the composers of the Vedas were indigenous, and of an antiquity greater than the Indus Valley Civilization. This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: Dear Howard, I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): A. adj. 1. a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, and sometimes Japhetic; by others restricted to the Asiatic portion of these. absol., the original Aryan or Arian language. b. spec. Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. 2. Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of Germany of non-Jewish extraction. B. n. 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. 2. spec. under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2). I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. But I can?t speak for him. All the best, Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Howard Resnick Sent: 08 June 2015 15:10 To: Geoffrey Samuel Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? Thanks, Howard On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel wrote: If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. That seems a reasonable and defensible position. Geoffrey From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Howard Resnick
Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12 To: Dominik Wujastyk Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. How racist? h.r. On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and LiteraturesUniversity of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpb at austin.utexas.edu Tue Jun 9 19:59:27 2015 From: jpb at austin.utexas.edu (Brereton, Joel) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 15 19:59:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rigveda commentary Message-ID: Dear colleagues, As some of you know, Stephanie Jamison and I have been working on a more detailed and technical commentary on the Jamison-Brereton RV translation. The obvious place to put something like this is the web, since it can be posted piecemeal and updated to incorporate suggestions from the outside and second or third thoughts of the translators. We've been working with the UCLA Center for Digital Humanities, and the first installments (from Stephanie) are now up. Currently it includes comments on hymns from Ma??ala I up to I.115 and on the Indra hymns in VII and VIII; we expect the complete commentary to require some years. The site is http://rigvedacommentary.alc.ucla.edu/ Please feel free to share this with anyone who might be interested. The site is not set up not to receive comments, but we would welcome suggestions sent directly to either or both of us. If we incorporate them in the commentary, we will do so with due attribution. Best wishes, Joel Brereton -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu Wed Jun 10 18:03:54 2015 From: Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu (Walser, Joseph) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 15 18:03:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Broughs The Early Brahmanical System of Gotra and Pravara Message-ID: Does anyone know if there is a PDF of John Brough's The Early Brahmanical System of Gotra and Pravara? I have looked in the usual places. Best, -j Joseph Walser Associate Professor Department of Religion Tufts University ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Nagaraj Paturi [nagarajpaturi at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 3:15 PM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC Apart from Prof. Howard Resnick's analysis, the following from Prof. Jesse Knutston also deserves attention: when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. 1. 'IVC was a highly developed Civilization' has the following assumptions : a. civilizations are superior to non-civilizational cultures. b. IVC has that superiority of being a civilizational culture. This is confirmed by the expression 'IVC cultural acievements' 2. 'which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language' has this assumption: The language spoken by the IVC people is clearly, undisputedly known through the decipherment of the seals and other such 'written' evidences. Assumption under 1. is racist, evolutionist and has urban chauvinism. Assumtion under 2. is in contradiction with the fact that the language of the IVC speakers is still under dispute and not yet clearly established. -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu Wed Jun 10 18:16:16 2015 From: Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu (Walser, Joseph) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 15 18:16:16 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Broughs The Early Brahmanical System Message-ID: Wow. Nine minutes exactly! My thanks to Manu Francis for rushing to my aid. Best, -j Joseph Walser Associate Professor Department of Religion Tufts University ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Thu Jun 11 09:42:01 2015 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 15 11:42:01 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_B=C4=81hy=C4=81rthasiddhi_quotations?= Message-ID: <1EAEFC6E-BDD2-4C3A-B6BC-5C4D2BE2A217@uclouvain.be> In his "Literary Gleanings" published in The Quarterly Journal of the Andhra Historical Resarch Society 2/2, 1927, pp. 130-145, M. R. Kavi notes (I attach the relevant pages below) that one Buddhist B?hy?rthasiddhi is quoted in : 1? the Prakara?apa?cik? of ??likan?tha Mi?ra [ch. 8, = Gretil input, 923-924 : api c?prak???tmana eva prak??as sambhavat?ti b?hy?rthasiddh?v uktam / in fact there is a previous reference, 778 : nir?k?ta? c?ya? b?hy?rthasiddh?v ?juvimal?y?m / ? which one is misleading since the ?juvimal? is the title of ??likan?tha own commentary on Prabh?kara's B?hat?] 2? [if I understand well] the ?arkarik? of "Bha??aputra" Jayami?ra (ed. Kunhan Raja, MUSS 17, 1946, not checked; which is a continuation of Umbeka's commentary on Kum?rila's ?lokav?rttika). Could the so-referred work correspond to the B?hy?rthasiddhi-k?rik?n?ma of ?ubhagupta preserved in Tibetan translation (a Sanskrit reconstructed text by N. A. Shastri [?< Bulletin of Tibetology 4, 1967?] is available on the DSBC : http://www.dsbcproject.org/canon-text/titles/B?hyarthasiddhik?rik?n?ma-0 ) and recently dealt with by M.S. Saccone ("S?ubhagupta on the Cognitive Process") in the Journal of Indian Philosophy 42/2-3, 2014 pp. 377-399, and by H. Matsuoka (in the Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies 61, 2013, pp. 1241-47) through its references in S??ntarak?ita's Tattvasa?graha ? Thank you for any comment on this. Best wishes, Christophe Vielle ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Thu Jun 11 09:58:01 2015 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 15 11:58:01 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Fwd:__B=C4=81hy=C4=81rthasiddhi_quotations?= In-Reply-To: <1EAEFC6E-BDD2-4C3A-B6BC-5C4D2BE2A217@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: <3885FF8D-2BB6-40AC-A368-B5D3EC1D4395@uclouvain.be> The light attachment of the two relevant pages in .tiff did not pass. I try the same in .pdf D?but du message r?exp?di? : > De: Christophe Vielle > Objet: [INDOLOGY] B?hy?rthasiddhi quotations > Date: 11 juin 2015 11:42:01 UTC+2 > ?: Indology > > In his "Literary Gleanings" published in The Quarterly Journal of the Andhra Historical Resarch Society 2/2, 1927, pp. 130-145, M. R. Kavi notes (I attach the relevant pages below) that one Buddhist B?hy?rthasiddhi is quoted in : > 1? the Prakara?apa?cik? of ??likan?tha Mi?ra > [ch. 8, = Gretil input, 923-924 : api c?prak???tmana eva prak??as sambhavat?ti b?hy?rthasiddh?v uktam / > in fact there is a previous reference, 778 : nir?k?ta? c?ya? b?hy?rthasiddh?v ?juvimal?y?m / ? which one is misleading since the ?juvimal? is the title of ??likan?tha own commentary on Prabh?kara's B?hat?] > 2? [if I understand well] the ?arkarik? of "Bha??aputra" Jayami?ra (ed. Kunhan Raja, MUSS 17, 1946, not checked; which is a continuation of Umbeka's commentary on Kum?rila's ?lokav?rttika). > Could the so-referred work correspond to the B?hy?rthasiddhi-k?rik?n?ma of ?ubhagupta preserved in Tibetan translation (a Sanskrit reconstructed text by N. A. Shastri [?< Bulletin of Tibetology 4, 1967?] is available on the DSBC : http://www.dsbcproject.org/canon-text/titles/B?hyarthasiddhik?rik?n?ma-0 ) and recently dealt with by M.S. Saccone ("S?ubhagupta on the Cognitive Process") in the Journal of Indian Philosophy 42/2-3, 2014 pp. 377-399, and by H. Matsuoka (in the Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies 61, 2013, pp. 1241-47) through its references in S??ntarak?ita's Tattvasa?graha ? > Thank you for any comment on this. > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: KaviQJAHRS21927p140.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 610666 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: KaviQJAHRS21927p141.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 539132 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr Thu Jun 11 10:12:22 2015 From: kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Agathe Keller) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 15 12:12:22 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Article_request:_F._Zimmermann_on_the_Yavanaj=C4=81taka?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Would any of you by any chance have access to the pdf of the following article? Zimmermann, F. ?Les aspects m?dicaux du Yavanaj?taka (trait? sanskrit d?astrologie).? Sudhoffs Archiv Kiel 65, no. 3 (1981): 299?305. with hope and regards to this great community of scholars, Agathe -- Agathe Keller tel : +33 1 57 27 68 87 Universit? Paris 7 Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 B?timent Condorcet Parcels: 3? ?tage bureau 387A Office: 6th floor 688 A 10 rue A.Domont et L.Duquet 75013 PARIS Postal Address : Universit? Paris 7 - CNRS Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 Equipe Sphere Case 7093 5 rue Thomas Mann 75205 PARIS CEDEX 13 France From jknutson at hawaii.edu Thu Jun 11 10:14:33 2015 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 15 15:44:33 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jesse Knutson Date: Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC To: Nagaraj Paturi Prof. Paturi, Kind sir, 1. I only wished to point out that the IVC was a distinct civilization from the speakers of Old Indo- Aryan. I did not mean better, just technologically more advanced, and distinct. This are facts that need not contain any additional value judgment. 2. I know that IVC seals have not been deciphered, but simply wished to point out that in all probability, in the opinion of most experts, they did not speak an Indo-European or Indo-Aryan language. The only people who believe otherwise are the true racists and chauvinists, the Hindutva morons who sadly are in a position of great power in your country today. So I would recommend that, in a spirit of intellectual integrity and calm, you try to discern the intent of someone's comments, before you start using heated language, and calling people racists and chauvinists. Good day,J On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Apart from Prof. Howard Resnick's analysis, the following from Prof. > Jesse Knutston also deserves attention: > > when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater > antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European > language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of > Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. > > 1. 'IVC was a highly developed Civilization' has the following assumptions > : a. civilizations are superior to non-civilizational cultures. b. IVC has > that superiority of being a civilizational culture. This is confirmed by > the expression 'IVC cultural acievements' > > 2. 'which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language' has this > assumption: The language spoken by the IVC people is clearly, undisputedly > known through the decipherment of the seals and other such 'written' > evidences. > > Assumption under 1. is racist, evolutionist and has urban chauvinism. > > Assumtion under 2. is in contradiction with the fact that the language of > the IVC speakers is still under dispute and not yet clearly established. > -- > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad-500044 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Thu Jun 11 11:37:16 2015 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 15 14:37:16 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7AA2390E-01D8-4121-932A-C12D216345A6@ivs.edu> On what do most experts base their opinion that IVC people did not speak an IE or IA language? Thanks. Howard > On Jun 11, 2015, at 1:14 PM, Jesse Knutson wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Jesse Knutson > > Date: Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 3:44 PM > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC > To: Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Prof. Paturi, Kind sir, 1. I only wished to point out that the IVC was a distinct civilization from the speakers of Old Indo- Aryan. I did not mean better, just technologically more advanced, and distinct. This are facts that need not contain any additional value judgment. 2. I know that IVC seals have not been deciphered, but simply wished to point out that in all probability, in the opinion of most experts, they did not speak an Indo-European or Indo-Aryan language. The only people who believe otherwise are the true racists and chauvinists, the Hindutva morons who sadly are in a position of great power in your country today. > > So I would recommend that, in a spirit of intellectual integrity and calm, you try to discern the intent of someone's comments, before you start using heated language, and calling people racists and chauvinists. > > Good day,J > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > Apart from Prof. Howard Resnick's analysis, the following from Prof. Jesse Knutston also deserves attention: > > when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater > antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European > language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of > Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. > > 1. 'IVC was a highly developed Civilization' has the following assumptions : a. civilizations are superior to non-civilizational cultures. b. IVC has that superiority of being a civilizational culture. This is confirmed by the expression 'IVC cultural acievements' > > 2. 'which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language' has this assumption: The language spoken by the IVC people is clearly, undisputedly known through the decipherment of the seals and other such 'written' evidences. > > Assumption under 1. is racist, evolutionist and has urban chauvinism. > > Assumtion under 2. is in contradiction with the fact that the language of the IVC speakers is still under dispute and not yet clearly established. > -- > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad-500044 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 452A Spalding > > > > -- > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 452A Spalding > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pcbisschop at googlemail.com Thu Jun 11 14:29:27 2015 From: pcbisschop at googlemail.com (peter bisschop) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 15 16:29:27 +0200 Subject: Gonda Fund for Indology Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am forwarding below the latest call for proposals of the Gonda fund. I also take this opportunity to draw your attention to the KNAW webpage where PDFs of some (not all) of the past Gonda lectures can be downloaded: http://www.knaw.nl/en/awards/subsidies/gonda-fund/gonda-lectures?set_language=en Peter Bisschop Leiden University *Call for Proposals: The Gonda Fund for Indology* The Gonda Fund supports the scholarly study of Sanskrit, other Indian languages and literatures, and Indian cultural history. The Gonda Fund awards: 1. Fellowships to promising young Indologists at post-doctorate level, that enable them to spend one to six months at the International Institute for Asian Studies (IIAS) in Leiden, the Netherlands. 2. Funding to scientists, scholars and scientific publishers for publications and research projects. 3. Gonda-grants to PhD students in the Netherlands for scientific projects or working visits. The deadlines for applications are 1 April and 1 October of every year. The Gonda Fund is a foundation of the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences. More information is available at www.knaw.nl/gonda-fund. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de Thu Jun 11 15:56:05 2015 From: kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Birgit Kellner) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 15 17:56:05 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_B=C4=81hy=C4=81rthasiddhi_quotations?= In-Reply-To: <1EAEFC6E-BDD2-4C3A-B6BC-5C4D2BE2A217@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: <5579AF95.9020601@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de> I looked briefly at the Tibetan translation (sde dge) of ?ubhagupta's BASK, but could not find any statement there that might be a (indirect) source of the quotation. But Serena Saccone, who wrote her dissertation on the BASK (I believe forthcoming with Motilal), would be the best person to ask. In their "Buddhist Philosophy of Language in India" (Columbia Univ. Press 2010), McCrea and Patil mention that Abhinavagupta records Dharmottara as the author of a text entitled B?hy?rthasiddhi, but "this text is not referred to elsewhere, as far as we know, and its existence seems to have passed unnoticed in contemporary secondary literature" (p. 143, n. 71, available on Google Books). They say references are found in ?PVV vol. 2, 128, 394. It is also possible that "b?hy?rthasiddhi" is a descriptive title referring to some part of a work, and the passage referring to the ?juvimal? might be construed as "and this was refuted in the ?juvimal? in [the section dealing with] the proof of external objects". For a further understanding of how ??likan?tha makes use of Dharmak?rtian notions in his theory of cognition (especially ?k?ra/svasa?vedana, where the concept of prak??a is pertinent), it may be helpful to look at Taiken KYUMA's "??likan?tha's Criticism of Dharmak?rti's svasa?vedana theory", JIP 38 (2010) 247-259. With best regards, Birgit Kellner Am 11.06.2015 um 11:42 schrieb Christophe Vielle: > In his "Literary Gleanings" published in /The Quarterly Journal of the > Andhra Historical Resarch Society /2/2, 1927, pp. 130-145, M. R. Kavi > notes (I attach the relevant pages below) that one Buddhist > /B?hy?rthasiddhi/ is quoted in : > 1? the Prakara?apa?cik? of ??likan?tha Mi?ra > [ch. 8, = Gretil input, 923-924 : api c?prak???tmana eva prak??as > sambhavat?ti b?hy?rthasiddh?v uktam / > in fact there is a previous reference, 778 : nir?k?ta? c?ya? > b?hy?rthasiddh?v ?juvimal?y?m / ? which one is misleading since the > /?juvimal?/ is the title of ??likan?tha own commentary on Prabh?kara's > B?hat?] > 2? [if I understand well] the /?arkarik?/ of "Bha??aputra" Jayami?ra > (ed. Kunhan Raja, MUSS 17, 1946, not checked; which is a continuation of > Umbeka's commentary on Kum?rila's /?lokav//?//rttika/). > Could the so-referred work correspond to the /B?hy?rthasiddhi-k?rik?n?ma > /of ?ubhagupta preserved in Tibetan translation (a Sanskrit > reconstructed text by N. A. Shastri [?< Bulletin of Tibetology 4, 1967?] > is available on the DSBC : > http://www.dsbcproject.org/canon-text/titles/B?hyarthasiddhik?rik?n?ma-0 > ) and recently dealt withby M.S. Saccone ("S?ubhagupta on the Cognitive > Process") in the /Journal of Indian Philosophy/ 42/2-3, 2014 pp. > 377-399, and by H. Matsuoka (in the /Journal of Indian and Buddhist > Studies/ 61, 2013, pp. 1241-47) through its references in S??ntarak?ita's > Tattvasa?/graha/ ? > Thank you for any comment on this. > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle -- ------------- Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner Chair in Buddhist Studies Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context - Shifting Asymmetries in Cultural Flows" University of Heidelberg Karl Jaspers Centre Vossstra?e 2, Building 4400 D-69115 Heidelberg Phone: +49(0)6221 - 54 4301 Fax: +49(0)6221 - 54 4012 http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/en/home.html From hhhock at illinois.edu Thu Jun 11 16:20:01 2015 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 15 16:20:01 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: <7AA2390E-01D8-4121-932A-C12D216345A6@ivs.edu> Message-ID: So far, serious attempts at decipherment (esp. Parpola) favor a Dravidian interpretation. However, no decipherment ? whether serious or amateur ? has so far succeeded in giving readings that are generally accepted and/or that go beyond interpretations of some of the signs, but not of all (or most) of the putative texts. A good survey up to about 1995 is Possehl?s Indus Age: The writing system (1996). What further raises questions is the claim by Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel that the Indus symbols do not meet the definition of any known writing systems (The collapse of the Indus Script thesis: The myth of a literate Harappan Civilization, Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies, 2004) and the discussion this provocative and provocatively stated thesis has engendered. My 2? worth: Until materials with a larger number of symbols can be found, against which any of the proposed decipherments can be tested, all attempts at decipherment will run into the problem of not being verifiable by showing that they make it possible to read texts that were not used as the original basis for the decipherment. Best wishes and peace to all, Hans Henrich On 11 Jun 2015, at 06:37, Howard Resnick
> wrote: On what do most experts base their opinion that IVC people did not speak an IE or IA language? Thanks. Howard On Jun 11, 2015, at 1:14 PM, Jesse Knutson > wrote: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jesse Knutson > Date: Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC To: Nagaraj Paturi > Prof. Paturi, Kind sir, 1. I only wished to point out that the IVC was a distinct civilization from the speakers of Old Indo- Aryan. I did not mean better, just technologically more advanced, and distinct. This are facts that need not contain any additional value judgment. 2. I know that IVC seals have not been deciphered, but simply wished to point out that in all probability, in the opinion of most experts, they did not speak an Indo-European or Indo-Aryan language. The only people who believe otherwise are the true racists and chauvinists, the Hindutva morons who sadly are in a position of great power in your country today. So I would recommend that, in a spirit of intellectual integrity and calm, you try to discern the intent of someone's comments, before you start using heated language, and calling people racists and chauvinists. Good day,J On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: Apart from Prof. Howard Resnick's analysis, the following from Prof. Jesse Knutston also deserves attention: when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. 1. 'IVC was a highly developed Civilization' has the following assumptions : a. civilizations are superior to non-civilizational cultures. b. IVC has that superiority of being a civilizational culture. This is confirmed by the expression 'IVC cultural acievements' 2. 'which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language' has this assumption: The language spoken by the IVC people is clearly, undisputedly known through the decipherment of the seals and other such 'written' evidences. Assumption under 1. is racist, evolutionist and has urban chauvinism. Assumtion under 2. is in contradiction with the fact that the language of the IVC speakers is still under dispute and not yet clearly established. -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 17:08:56 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 15 22:38:56 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Nagaraj Paturi Date: Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC To: Jesse Knutson Dear Prof. Jesse Knutson, When your post ended with the words, "To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic " and it was in direct continuation of a sentence in reference to Prof. Bharadwaj who I do not know whether is a member of the Indology list or not, I thought you did not consider those words 'racist' and 'chauvinistic' to be 'heated' or 'calling somebody as something' and so on. I thought you would receive my words which were not different from yours with the same, probably academic sportive?, spirit with which you, I am sure would have expected Prof. Bharadwaj to receive your words. Probably you continue to expect similar academic sportive spirit? from the readers of your words in the present post such as morons. Now that I know that you appear to have been offended by the words used by you when I used them, I apologise to you for any act of offending that I caused to you by using such words. I sincerely would like to clarify that my use of those words was with a pure academic spirit and no personal offense was intended. Apologies again for any inadvertent ill feeling created. Thanks for your understanding. Warm regards, Nagaraj On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Jesse Knutson wrote: > Prof. Paturi, Kind sir, 1. I only wished to point out that the IVC was a > distinct civilization from the speakers of Old Indo- Aryan. I did not mean > better, just technologically more advanced, and distinct. This are facts > that need not contain any additional value judgment. 2. I know that IVC > seals have not been deciphered, but simply wished to point out that in all > probability, in the opinion of most experts, they did not speak an > Indo-European or Indo-Aryan language. The only people who believe otherwise > are the true racists and chauvinists, the Hindutva morons who sadly are in > a position of great power in your country today. > > So I would recommend that, in a spirit of intellectual integrity and calm, > you try to discern the intent of someone's comments, before you start using > heated language, and calling people racists and chauvinists. > > Good day,J > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> Apart from Prof. Howard Resnick's analysis, the following from Prof. >> Jesse Knutston also deserves attention: >> >> when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater >> antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or >> Indo-European >> language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of >> Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. >> >> 1. 'IVC was a highly developed Civilization' has the following >> assumptions : a. civilizations are superior to non-civilizational cultures. >> b. IVC has that superiority of being a civilizational culture. This is >> confirmed by the expression 'IVC cultural acievements' >> >> 2. 'which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language' has this >> assumption: The language spoken by the IVC people is clearly, undisputedly >> known through the decipherment of the seals and other such 'written' >> evidences. >> >> Assumption under 1. is racist, evolutionist and has urban chauvinism. >> >> Assumtion under 2. is in contradiction with the fact that the language of >> the IVC speakers is still under dispute and not yet clearly established. >> -- >> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi >> Hyderabad-500044 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific > Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 452A Spalding > -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 17:44:15 2015 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 15 13:44:15 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Hans, I agree with everything that you have said in this post [including the "Best wishes and peace to all"!]. But I would add two more points. The first is that, given its size, IVC may well have been bilingual or multilingual. The second is that Vedic is very unlikely to have been one of these languages. The picture of IVC that we get from the archaeological remains of IVC is incompatible with the picture of Vedic culture that we see in Vedic texts. IVC is urban, and even urbane, whereas early Vedic is nomadic. IVC is rich in fish-signs, whereas fish are never mentioned in the Rigveda. Vedic is horse-centric, whereas horses are absent in IVC. There is also the problem of a large historical gulf between the two cultures. Again, best wishes and peacce to all. George On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: > So far, serious attempts at decipherment (esp. Parpola) favor a > Dravidian interpretation. However, no decipherment ? whether serious or > amateur ? has so far succeeded in giving readings that are generally > accepted and/or that go beyond interpretations of some of the signs, but > not of all (or most) of the putative texts. A good survey up to about 1995 > is Possehl?s *Indus Age: The writing system* (1996). What further raises > questions is the claim by Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel that the Indus symbols > do not meet the definition of any known writing systems (*The collapse of > the Indus Script thesis: The myth of a literate Harappan Civilization*, > Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies, 2004) and the discussion this > provocative and provocatively stated thesis has engendered. > > My 2? worth: Until materials with a larger number of symbols can be > found, against which any of the proposed decipherments can be tested, all > attempts at decipherment will run into the problem of not being verifiable > by showing that they make it possible to read texts that were not used as > the original basis for the decipherment. > > Best wishes and peace to all, > > Hans Henrich > > > On 11 Jun 2015, at 06:37, Howard Resnick
wrote: > > On what do most experts base their opinion that IVC people did not speak > an IE or IA language? Thanks. > > Howard > > On Jun 11, 2015, at 1:14 PM, Jesse Knutson wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Jesse Knutson > Date: Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 3:44 PM > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at > the IHRC > To: Nagaraj Paturi > > > Prof. Paturi, Kind sir, 1. I only wished to point out that the IVC was a > distinct civilization from the speakers of Old Indo- Aryan. I did not mean > better, just technologically more advanced, and distinct. This are facts > that need not contain any additional value judgment. 2. I know that IVC > seals have not been deciphered, but simply wished to point out that in all > probability, in the opinion of most experts, they did not speak an > Indo-European or Indo-Aryan language. The only people who believe otherwise > are the true racists and chauvinists, the Hindutva morons who sadly are in > a position of great power in your country today. > > So I would recommend that, in a spirit of intellectual integrity and > calm, you try to discern the intent of someone's comments, before you start > using heated language, and calling people racists and chauvinists. > > Good day,J > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> Apart from Prof. Howard Resnick's analysis, the following from Prof. >> Jesse Knutston also deserves attention: >> >> when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater >> antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or >> Indo-European >> language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of >> Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. >> >> 1. 'IVC was a highly developed Civilization' has the following >> assumptions : a. civilizations are superior to non-civilizational cultures. >> b. IVC has that superiority of being a civilizational culture. This is >> confirmed by the expression 'IVC cultural acievements' >> >> 2. 'which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language' has this >> assumption: The language spoken by the IVC people is clearly, undisputedly >> known through the decipherment of the seals and other such 'written' >> evidences. >> >> Assumption under 1. is racist, evolutionist and has urban chauvinism. >> >> Assumtion under 2. is in contradiction with the fact that the language of >> the IVC speakers is still under dispute and not yet clearly established. >> -- >> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi >> Hyderabad-500044 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific > Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 452A Spalding > > > > -- > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific > Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 452A Spalding > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Thu Jun 11 19:53:42 2015 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 15 19:53:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037516DF1@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Dear everyone, I would suggest that all be more restrained in the use of the term "racist," the connotations of which generally suggest that the person so characterized attributes constitutional inferiority, or ritual pollution, or moral degradation, or animality, etc., to certain classes of persons on account of their "race," a term whose precise significance is deeply problematic. Chauvanism is not the same thing, nor is triumphalism, though these also involve judgments of human inequality. The Aryan topos frequently is imbricated with racism, but it is not necessarily so. More damning, in my view, have been the reckless, unscientific confusions of historical linguistics, cultural history, mythology, genetics, archeology, nationalism, etc., that characterize many of the recent discussions. These are not by any means to be mixed indiscriminately. Best in my view to be cautious in one's methodology and prudent in one's vocabulary. Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 22:03:08 2015 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 15 16:03:08 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request, Kamaleswar Bhattacharya review of Claus Oetke, "Ich" und das Ich Message-ID: Dear Indologists, Does anyone have easy access to this book review? No library now accessible to me has it, and I have not found it online. Kamaleswar Bhattacharya review of Claus Oetke, *"Ich" und das Ich: Analytische Untersuchungen zur buddhistisch-brahmanischen * *?tmankontroverse*. In *Bulletin d'**?tudes Indiennes*, vol. 9, 1991, pp. 279-281. I would greatly appreciate a scan of it. Thanks! Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Thu Jun 11 22:08:10 2015 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 15 22:08:10 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request, Kamaleswar Bhattacharya review of Claus Oetke, "Ich" und das Ich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037516E60@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Hi David, I can get it for you within about a week if no one else comes through first. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of David and Nancy Reigle [dnreigle at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 5:03 PM To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request, Kamaleswar Bhattacharya review of Claus Oetke, "Ich" und das Ich Dear Indologists, Does anyone have easy access to this book review? No library now accessible to me has it, and I have not found it online. Kamaleswar Bhattacharya review of Claus Oetke, "Ich" und das Ich: Analytische Untersuchungen zur buddhistisch-brahmanischen ?tmankontroverse. In Bulletin d'?tudes Indiennes, vol. 9, 1991, pp. 279-281. I would greatly appreciate a scan of it. Thanks! Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. From dnreigle at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 22:49:11 2015 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 15 16:49:11 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request, Kamaleswar Bhattacharya review of Claus Oetke, "Ich" und das Ich In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037516E60@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: Many thanks, Matthew. That would be wonderful! I am in no hurry for it. All the best, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 4:08 PM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > Hi David, > > I can get it for you within about a week if no one else comes through > first. > > best, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > ________________________________________ > From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of David > and Nancy Reigle [dnreigle at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 5:03 PM > To: Indology > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request, Kamaleswar Bhattacharya review of Claus > Oetke, "Ich" und das Ich > > Dear Indologists, > > Does anyone have easy access to this book review? No library now > accessible to me has it, and I have not found it online. > > Kamaleswar Bhattacharya review of Claus Oetke, "Ich" und das Ich: > Analytische Untersuchungen zur buddhistisch-brahmanischen ?tmankontroverse. > In Bulletin d'?tudes Indiennes, vol. 9, 1991, pp. 279-281. > > I would greatly appreciate a scan of it. Thanks! > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Fri Jun 12 02:06:29 2015 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 02:06:29 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037516DF1@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: Dear Matthew and George, I agree with both of your comments. To avoid raising too many red flags, I confined my comments to the issue of the decipherment (or not) of the Indus symbols. There clearly are great cultural differences between the Indus Civilization and the Vedic one, including the great role of the unicorn in the IC and its absence in (early) Vedic. Best wishes, Hans Henrich On 11 Jun 2015, at 14:53, Matthew Kapstein > wrote: Dear everyone, I would suggest that all be more restrained in the use of the term "racist," the connotations of which generally suggest that the person so characterized attributes constitutional inferiority, or ritual pollution, or moral degradation, or animality, etc., to certain classes of persons on account of their "race," a term whose precise significance is deeply problematic. Chauvanism is not the same thing, nor is triumphalism, though these also involve judgments of human inequality. The Aryan topos frequently is imbricated with racism, but it is not necessarily so. More damning, in my view, have been the reckless, unscientific confusions of historical linguistics, cultural history, mythology, genetics, archeology, nationalism, etc., that characterize many of the recent discussions. These are not by any means to be mixed indiscriminately. Best in my view to be cautious in one's methodology and prudent in one's vocabulary. Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anurupa.n at ifpindia.org Fri Jun 12 07:15:50 2015 From: anurupa.n at ifpindia.org (Anurupa Naik) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 12:45:50 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_book_jointly_published_by_the_Institut_Fran=C3=A7ais_de_Pondich=C3=A9ry/Ecole_fran=C3=A7aise_d'Extr=C3=AAme-Orient/Asien-Afrika-Institut,_Universit=C3=A4t_Hamburg?= In-Reply-To: <557A85CC.9070704@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: <557A8726.3080708@ifpindia.org> *JUST RELEASED * * * *The Ni?v?satattvasam??hit?. The Earliest Surviving ?aiva Tantra. Volume **1.**A Critical Edition & Annotated Translation of the M?las?tra, Uttaras?tra & Nayas?tra.* Edited by Dominic Goodall in collaboration with Alexis Sanderson & Harunaga Isaacson with contributions of Nirajan Kafle, Diwakar Acharya & others, Collection Indologie n? 128; Early Tantra Series n? 1, Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry / Ecole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient / Asien-Afrika-Institut, Universit?t Hamburg, 662 p. Language: Sanskrit, English. *1200**Rs (52 ?).*ISBN: 978-81-8470-205-7 (IFP) / 978-2-85539-151-9 (EFEO). Transmitted to us in a well-preserved ninth-century Nepalese manuscript, the /Ni?v?satattvasa?hit?/ has come in recent years to be recognised as probably the oldest surviving complete scripture of the Mantram?rga.Although its historical importance has been hinted at by a range of scholars across the twentieth century, this is the first time its text appears in print. This volume presents a critical edition and annotated translation of the three earliest layers of the text: the /M?las?tra/, /Uttaras?tra/ and /Nayas?tra/. The topics dealt with include cosmology, rituals of worship and initiation, and forms of yoga. A lengthy introduction sets these /s?tra/s in context, in particular by examining the evidence for dating them. There follow a summary of their contents, an account of the early manuscript and its three twentieth-century apographs, and a treatment of the various ways in which the language of the Ni?v?sa deviates from P??inian norms. ** *Keywords:*Mantram?rga, ?aivism, ?aivasiddh?nta, Early Tantra, Ritual, Initiation, Cosmography, Yoga *About the Editors* After studies in Oxford and in Hamburg, *Dominic Goodall* passed several years working in Pondicherry, where he was head of the Pondicherry Centre of the ?cole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient from 2002 to 2011. He has published critical editions of ?aiva works and of classical Sanskrit poetry (most recently, with Csaba Dezs?, the eighth-century /Ku??an?mata/ of D?modaragupta). He is currently based in Paris, where he gives lectures on Indian and Cambodian Sanskrit literature at the ?cole pratique des hautes ?tudes (religious science section). ** *Alexis G. J. S. Sanderson*is a renowned expert on the history of ?aivism and on tantric traditions. After taking undergraduate degrees in Classics and Sanskrit at Balliol College, Oxford, he spent six years in Kashmir studying with the celebrated scholar and ?aiva guru Swami Lakshman Joo. From 1977 to 1992 he was Lecturer in Sanskrit in the University of Oxford, and Fellow of Wolfson College. Since 1992 he has held the Spalding Chair of Eastern Religions and Ethics in the University of Oxford, and is a Fellow of All Souls College. ** *Harunaga Isaacson*studied in Groningen (MA 1990) and was awarded a PhD in Sanskrit by the University of Leiden in 1995. After holding positions for research and teaching at the Universities of Oxford, Hamburg and Pennsylvania, he was appointed Professor of Classical Indology in the Department of Indian and Tibetan Studies, Asien-Afrika-Institut, Hamburg, in 2006. His main research areas are: tantric traditions in pre-13^th -century South Asia, especially Vajray?na Buddhism; classical Sanskrit poetry; classical Indian philosophy; and Pur??ic literature. ** *To order, contact:* Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry P. B. 33, 11, St. Louis Street, Pondicherry-605001, INDIA Ph: +91-413-2231660 / 661. Fax: +91 413-2231605 E-mail: library at ifpindia.org *Ecole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient* P.O. Box 151,16 & 19, Dumas Street Pondicherry - 605001,INDIA Ph: +91-413-2334539. Fax +91-413-2330886 E-mail: shanti at efeo-pondicherry.org -- Ms. Anurupa Naik Head, Library and Publication Division French Institute of Pondicherry (IFP) UMIFRE 21 CNRS-MAEE P.B. 33 11, St. Louis Street Pondicherry-605 001, INDIA Tel: 91-413-2231660 Fax: 91-413-2231605 e-mail:anurupa.n at ifpindia.org website:www.ifpindia.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Fri Jun 12 08:22:37 2015 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 08:22:37 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <205643844.1593961.1434097357955.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I agree with Hans Hock, George Thompson and others that we can't say for certain what the language of the IVC was, and that it was mostly likely multilingual. And, I would add multicultural, since it was at the intersection of several different cultures: Coastal Indian, Doab Indian, Central Indian, Himalayan, Iranian, and Central Asian, not to mention the evidence for oceanic trade with Mesopotamia. I am not saying that there were definitely large numbers of Indo-Iranians in the Harappan Civlization but, according to mainstream Indo-European scholars, they were not that far away in Central Asia, and the Harappans did have overland trade with and through those regions. So the existence of Indo-Iranian communities among the Harappans is not at all unreasonable. I believe Asko Parpola proposed as much; and perhaps Madhav Deshpande, although I don't have their publications at hand. Perhaps they could comment. On another topic, the reason scholars reject the Hindutva-inspired theories is not because of their politics but because of generally poor quality of their scholarship. This is as it should be. I'm glad to see that accusations of racism and nationalism have not gained traction in this discussion because such inflammatory terms only serve to distract us from the real scholarly issues pertaining to ancient India.? This is not, of course, to declare that the study of the effect of modern racist or nationalist ideologies on Indology should be off-limits. But they are two different, yet often conflated, topics that should be kept separate. Best, Dean AndersonEast West Cultural Institute From: "Hock, Hans Henrich" To: Matthew Kapstein Cc: Indology List Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 7:36 AM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC Dear Matthew and George, I agree with both of your comments. To avoid raising too many red flags, I confined my comments to the issue of the decipherment (or not) of the Indus symbols. There clearly are great cultural differences between the Indus Civilization and the Vedic one, including the great role of the unicorn in the IC and its absence in (early) Vedic. Best wishes, Hans Henrich On 11 Jun 2015, at 14:53, Matthew Kapstein wrote: Dear everyone, I would suggest that all be more restrained in the use of the term "racist," the connotations of which? generally suggest that the person so characterized attributes constitutional inferiority, or ritual pollution, or moral degradation, or animality, etc., to certain classes of persons on account of their "race," a term whose precise significance is deeply problematic. Chauvanism is not the same thing, nor is triumphalism, though these also involve judgments of human inequality. The Aryan topos frequently is imbricated with racism, but it is not necessarily so. More damning, in my view, have been the reckless, unscientific confusions of historical linguistics, cultural history, mythology, genetics, archeology, nationalism, etc., that characterize many of the recent discussions. These are not by any means to be mixed indiscriminately.? Best in my view to be cautious in one's methodology and prudent in one's vocabulary.? Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes,? Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 08:52:44 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 14:22:44 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC Message-ID: A scholar called Tom Van Bakel has been uploading on Academia.edu https://independent.academia.edu/TomvanBakel several papers on cylinder seals. Some of the papers for example, https://www.academia.edu/7548594/The_Proto-Shiva_seal_or_Pashupati_and_the_five_pranas_depicted_on_an_Indus_seal._An_Indus_Rosetta_stone https://www.academia.edu/9066925/An_Indus_seal_shows_the_goddess_Parvati_spreading_her_legs_to_give_birth_to_a_child cover Indus seals. I wanted to bring to the notice of the list in the present context. -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hegartyjm at googlemail.com Fri Jun 12 11:04:27 2015 From: hegartyjm at googlemail.com (James Hegarty) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 12:04:27 +0100 Subject: Walter Ruben paper Message-ID: <2FBAD518-F6A5-44A8-893A-7914E9560D54@googlemail.com> Dear Colleagues, Does anyone have a copy of ?Der Minister J?b?li in V?lm?kis R?m?ya?a? Acta Antiqua Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae 4, 1956, pp. 35-53? Thanks, James Hegarty Cardiff University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Brockington at btinternet.com Fri Jun 12 11:25:38 2015 From: John.Brockington at btinternet.com (John Brockington) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 12:25:38 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Walter Ruben paper In-Reply-To: <2FBAD518-F6A5-44A8-893A-7914E9560D54@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <557AC1B2.1040405@btinternet.com> Dear James, The article was also published, according to my records, as: Ruben, Walter 1964-65: ?The Minister J?b?li in V?lm?ki?s R?m?ya?a?, /Indian Studies Past and Present/6: 443-66. However, I do not have a copy of it (either as a scan or a photocopy), so I cannot help directly. I would be pleased to have a copy myself, if anyone is able to provide it. Best wishes John Professor J.L. Brockington 113 Rutten Lane Yarnton Kidlington 0X5 1LT tel: 01865 849438 On 12/06/2015 12:04, James Hegarty wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Does anyone have a copy of ?Der Minister J?b?li in V?lm?kis R?m?ya?a? > /Acta Antiqua Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae /4, 1956, pp. 35-53? > > Thanks, > > James Hegarty > Cardiff University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 11:27:08 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 13:27:08 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Animation of the expansion of PIE Message-ID: http://qz.com/425577/this-animated-map-shows-how-sanskrit-may-have-come-to-india/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Jun 12 11:51:18 2015 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 07:51:18 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Walter Ruben paper In-Reply-To: <557AC1B2.1040405@btinternet.com> Message-ID: I too would like to have a copy of this paper. Thanks. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 7:25 AM, John Brockington < John.Brockington at btinternet.com> wrote: > Dear James, > > The article was also published, according to my records, as: > > Ruben, Walter 1964-65: ?The Minister J?b?li in V?lm?ki?s R?m?ya?a?, *Indian > Studies Past and Present* 6: 443-66. > > However, I do not have a copy of it (either as a scan or a photocopy), so > I cannot help directly. I would be pleased to have a copy myself, if > anyone is able to provide it. > > Best wishes > > John > > Professor J.L. Brockington > 113 Rutten Lane > Yarnton > Kidlington 0X5 1LT > tel: 01865 849438 > > > On 12/06/2015 12:04, James Hegarty wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > Does anyone have a copy of ?Der Minister J?b?li in V?lm?kis R?m?ya?a? *Acta > Antiqua Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae *4, 1956, pp. 35-53? > > Thanks, > > James Hegarty > Cardiff University > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 11:51:31 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 13:51:31 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Article_request:_F._Zimmermann_on_the_Yavanaj=C4=81taka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11 June 2015 at 12:12, Agathe Keller wrote: > Sudhoffs Archiv - ?? ?Downloadable from here . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr Fri Jun 12 12:03:20 2015 From: kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Agathe Keller) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 14:03:20 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Article_request:_F._Zimmermann_on_the_Yavanaj=C4=81taka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would like to thank Christelle Barois, Dominik Wuyastyk and Bill Mak for their prompt replies! this list is marvellous indeed! Agathe 2015-06-12 13:51 GMT+02:00 Dominik Wujastyk : > > On 11 June 2015 at 12:12, Agathe Keller > wrote: >> >> Sudhoffs Archiv > > > Downloadable from here. -- Agathe Keller tel : +33 1 57 27 68 87 Universit? Paris 7 Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 B?timent Condorcet Parcels: 3? ?tage bureau 387A Office: 6th floor 688 A 10 rue A.Domont et L.Duquet 75013 PARIS Postal Address : Universit? Paris 7 - CNRS Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 Equipe Sphere Case 7093 5 rue Thomas Mann 75205 PARIS CEDEX 13 France From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 12:15:44 2015 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 14:15:44 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I just came along the recent publication by Adluri and Bagchee entitled ?The Nay Science. A History of German Indology,? (Oxford, New York: Oxford University Press, 2014). This book claims on its first page to demonstrate that ?the application of the text-historical method [the authors use this term as a synonym for historical-critical methods in general] is not scientific [their translation of ?wissenschaftlich?], ? in the majority of cases, the textual histories German scholars came up with using this method were a projection of their fantasies.? In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? I would be grateful for suggestions. With best wishes, Philipp Maas -- Dr. Philipp A. Maas Universit?tsassistent Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Wien ?sterreich univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 12:48:25 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 14:48:25 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas wrote: > > > In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical > methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? > > ?Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly answer :-) ? (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, but I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning editor at OUP NY? Best, Dominik Wujastyk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Fri Jun 12 14:27:50 2015 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 07:27:50 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <215741BE-DE03-4BF0-A3F6-D7B55B9FAD67@berkeley.edu> If you search the book at Amazon, you can read significant parts of it (?Look inside this book?). The authors are serious, well-read scholars and have put a colossal amount of work into their effort. The book strikes me as an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by indologists. George Hart > On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas > wrote: > > In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? > > > > ?Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly answer :-) > > ? > (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) > > I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, but I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning editor at OUP NY? > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de Fri Jun 12 14:52:35 2015 From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 14:52:35 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: <215741BE-DE03-4BF0-A3F6-D7B55B9FAD67@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94BA36444F@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de> Dear Professor Hart, may I ask for an example of the "ideas that should be seriously considered by indologists"? Thanks in advance. Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von "George Hart [glhart at berkeley.edu] Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 16:27 An: Indology List Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology If you search the book at Amazon, you can read significant parts of it (?Look inside this book?). The authors are serious, well-read scholars and have put a colossal amount of work into their effort. The book strikes me as an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by indologists. George Hart On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas > wrote: In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? ?Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly answer :-) ? (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, but I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning editor at OUP NY? Best, Dominik Wujastyk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hermantull at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 14:59:25 2015 From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 10:59:25 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: <215741BE-DE03-4BF0-A3F6-D7B55B9FAD67@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: I am reading the Adluri/Bagchee book right now; though not without its problems, I have to agree with George Hart's assessment. But, I will also say, as a student of religion (my graduate department had the rather comprehensive and so, too, largely meaningless name, "Department of the History and Literature of Religions"), Americans have long struggled with the precise meaning of "wissenschaftlich." The 19th century American world was a direct descendent of the German academy, but lacked its sophistication. (Somewhere early in the JAOS I recall that the reason given for the turn to Oriental studies was to "keep up with the Joneses"--i.e., the Europeans; not much science there, I am afraid.) cheers, Herman Tull On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:27 AM, George Hart wrote: > If you search the book at Amazon, you can read significant parts of it > (?Look inside this book?). The authors are serious, well-read scholars and > have put a colossal amount of work into their effort. The book strikes me > as an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by > indologists. George Hart > > On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas wrote: > >> >> >> In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical >> methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? >> >> > ?Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly answer :-) > > ? > (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and > Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) > > I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, but > I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning > editor at OUP NY? > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- *Herman TullPrinceton, NJ * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de Fri Jun 12 15:08:57 2015 From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 15:08:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94BA364463@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de> I hope this is not to suggest that the matter should be decided by acclamation. I merely asked Professor Hart to specify a point "that should be seriously considered by indologists". My interest does not go beyond that. R.G. ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von "Herman Tull [hermantull at gmail.com] Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 16:59 An: Indology Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology I am reading the Adluri/Bagchee book right now; though not without its problems, I have to agree with George Hart's assessment. But, I will also say, as a student of religion (my graduate department had the rather comprehensive and so, too, largely meaningless name, "Department of the History and Literature of Religions"), Americans have long struggled with the precise meaning of "wissenschaftlich." The 19th century American world was a direct descendent of the German academy, but lacked its sophistication. (Somewhere early in the JAOS I recall that the reason given for the turn to Oriental studies was to "keep up with the Joneses"--i.e., the Europeans; not much science there, I am afraid.) cheers, Herman Tull On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:27 AM, George Hart > wrote: If you search the book at Amazon, you can read significant parts of it (?Look inside this book?). The authors are serious, well-read scholars and have put a colossal amount of work into their effort. The book strikes me as an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by indologists. George Hart On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas > wrote: In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? ?Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly answer :-) ? (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, but I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning editor at OUP NY? Best, Dominik Wujastyk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Herman Tull Princeton, NJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 15:23:54 2015 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 11:23:54 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94BA364463@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de> Message-ID: Where would we be without German Indology? George Thompson On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold < gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de> wrote: > I hope this is not to suggest that the matter should be decided by > acclamation. I merely asked Professor Hart to specify a point "that should > be seriously considered by indologists". My interest does not go beyond > that. > > > > R.G. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *Von:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von > "Herman Tull [hermantull at gmail.com] > *Gesendet:* Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 16:59 > *An:* Indology > *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology > > I am reading the Adluri/Bagchee book right now; though not without its > problems, I have to agree with George Hart's assessment. > > But, I will also say, as a student of religion (my graduate department > had the rather comprehensive and so, too, largely meaningless name, > "Department of the History and Literature of Religions"), Americans have > long struggled with the precise meaning of "wissenschaftlich." The 19th > century American world was a direct descendent of the German academy, but > lacked its sophistication. (Somewhere early in the JAOS I recall that the > reason given for the turn to Oriental studies was to "keep up with the > Joneses"--i.e., the Europeans; not much science there, I am afraid.) > > cheers, > > Herman Tull > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:27 AM, George Hart wrote: > >> If you search the book at Amazon, you can read significant parts of it >> (?Look inside this book?). The authors are serious, well-read scholars and >> have put a colossal amount of work into their effort. The book strikes me >> as an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by >> indologists. George Hart >> >> On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Dominik Wujastyk >> wrote: >> >> On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical >>> methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? >>> >>> >> ?Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly answer >> :-) >> >> ? >> (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and >> Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) >> >> I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, but >> I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning >> editor at OUP NY? >> >> Best, >> Dominik Wujastyk >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > > *Herman Tull Princeton, NJ * > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hermantull at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 15:42:22 2015 From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 11:42:22 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94BA364463@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de> Message-ID: My comment was written before I saw Reinhold's comment. My original remark was less a matter of supporting ("acclamation") George Hart's remarks (which I do support), then it was a matter of drawing our attention to the fact that Americans have struggled with their academic heritage, and in particular, with the precise sense of "wissenschaftlich." On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold < gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de> wrote: > I hope this is not to suggest that the matter should be decided by > acclamation. I merely asked Professor Hart to specify a point "that should > be seriously considered by indologists". My interest does not go beyond > that. > > > > R.G. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *Von:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von > "Herman Tull [hermantull at gmail.com] > *Gesendet:* Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 16:59 > *An:* Indology > *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology > > I am reading the Adluri/Bagchee book right now; though not without its > problems, I have to agree with George Hart's assessment. > > But, I will also say, as a student of religion (my graduate department > had the rather comprehensive and so, too, largely meaningless name, > "Department of the History and Literature of Religions"), Americans have > long struggled with the precise meaning of "wissenschaftlich." The 19th > century American world was a direct descendent of the German academy, but > lacked its sophistication. (Somewhere early in the JAOS I recall that the > reason given for the turn to Oriental studies was to "keep up with the > Joneses"--i.e., the Europeans; not much science there, I am afraid.) > > cheers, > > Herman Tull > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:27 AM, George Hart wrote: > >> If you search the book at Amazon, you can read significant parts of it >> (?Look inside this book?). The authors are serious, well-read scholars and >> have put a colossal amount of work into their effort. The book strikes me >> as an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by >> indologists. George Hart >> >> On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Dominik Wujastyk >> wrote: >> >> On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical >>> methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? >>> >>> >> ?Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly answer >> :-) >> >> ? >> (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and >> Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) >> >> I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, but >> I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning >> editor at OUP NY? >> >> Best, >> Dominik Wujastyk >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > > *Herman Tull Princeton, NJ * > -- *Herman TullPrinceton, NJ * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Fri Jun 12 16:00:54 2015 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 09:00:54 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <37440748-00B4-4C83-9A22-1B5470AB9C8C@berkeley.edu> I have not read the book, only about 15 pages from what Amazon lets us see. It seems obvious to me that the book needs to be taken seriously. If scholars disagree vehemently with its method and conclusions, I hope they will read it and write a review. My own impression (based on just a few pages) is that the book helps give perspective to the ?science? of Indology ? how it developed, what social and historical forces guided it, and perhaps some assumptions of modern scholars that are problematic. I remember spending a year poring over Geldner, Grassman, and Oldenberg and being very impressed by their scholarship. The accomplishments of German Indologists are clearly seminal, but that doesn?t mean it?s not important to understand the intellectual, cultural and historical circumstances that inevitably influenced what they wrote. George Hart > On Jun 12, 2015, at 8:42 AM, Herman Tull wrote: > > > My comment was written before I saw Reinhold's comment. My original remark was less a matter of supporting ("acclamation") George Hart's remarks (which I do support), then it was a matter of drawing our attention to the fact that Americans have struggled with their academic heritage, and in particular, with the precise sense of "wissenschaftlich." > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold > wrote: > I hope this is not to suggest that the matter should be decided by acclamation. I merely asked Professor Hart to specify a point "that should be seriously considered by indologists". My interest does not go beyond that. > > > R.G. > > > > > Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info ]" im Auftrag von "Herman Tull [hermantull at gmail.com ] > Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 16:59 > An: Indology > Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology > > I am reading the Adluri/Bagchee book right now; though not without its problems, I have to agree with George Hart's assessment. > > But, I will also say, as a student of religion (my graduate department had the rather comprehensive and so, too, largely meaningless name, "Department of the History and Literature of Religions"), Americans have long struggled with the precise meaning of "wissenschaftlich." The 19th century American world was a direct descendent of the German academy, but lacked its sophistication. (Somewhere early in the JAOS I recall that the reason given for the turn to Oriental studies was to "keep up with the Joneses"--i.e., the Europeans; not much science there, I am afraid.) > > cheers, > > Herman Tull > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:27 AM, George Hart > wrote: > If you search the book at Amazon, you can read significant parts of it (?Look inside this book?). The authors are serious, well-read scholars and have put a colossal amount of work into their effort. The book strikes me as an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by indologists. George Hart > >> On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: >> >> On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas > wrote: >> >> >> In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? >> >> >> >> ?Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly answer :-) >> >> ? >> (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) >> >> I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, but I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning editor at OUP NY? >> >> Best, >> Dominik Wujastyk >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Herman Tull > Princeton, NJ > > > > -- > Herman Tull > Princeton, NJ > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Fri Jun 12 16:29:41 2015 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 16:29:41 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: <37440748-00B4-4C83-9A22-1B5470AB9C8C@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: I suppose that Professor Hart, like many other members of the list, may not yet be aware of the rather substantial series of articles that Dr. Gr?nendahl has devoted to debunking the very idea of a "German Indology" and other elements of self proclaimed "critique" of Indology. One of the authors taken to task by Dr. Gruenendahl has been the very Vishva Adluri whose name I now encounter again as author of the book to which Dr. Maas has drawn our attention. Here is the relevant article of Dr. Gr?nendahl: Gr?nendahl, Reinhold. 2012. ?History in the Making: On Sheldon Pollock?s ?NS Indology? and Vishwa Adluri?s ?Pride and Prejudice.?? International Journal of Hindu Studies 16 (2): 189?257. doi:10.1007/s11407-012-9115-1. Best wishes, Arlo Griffiths ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient From: glhart at berkeley.edu Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:00:54 -0700 To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology I have not read the book, only about 15 pages from what Amazon lets us see. It seems obvious to me that the book needs to be taken seriously. If scholars disagree vehemently with its method and conclusions, I hope they will read it and write a review. My own impression (based on just a few pages) is that the book helps give perspective to the ?science? of Indology ? how it developed, what social and historical forces guided it, and perhaps some assumptions of modern scholars that are problematic. I remember spending a year poring over Geldner, Grassman, and Oldenberg and being very impressed by their scholarship. The accomplishments of German Indologists are clearly seminal, but that doesn?t mean it?s not important to understand the intellectual, cultural and historical circumstances that inevitably influenced what they wrote. George Hart On Jun 12, 2015, at 8:42 AM, Herman Tull wrote: My comment was written before I saw Reinhold's comment. My original remark was less a matter of supporting ("acclamation") George Hart's remarks (which I do support), then it was a matter of drawing our attention to the fact that Americans have struggled with their academic heritage, and in particular, with the precise sense of "wissenschaftlich." On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold wrote: I hope this is not to suggest that the matter should be decided by acclamation. I merely asked Professor Hart to specify a point "that should be seriously considered by indologists". My interest does not go beyond that. R.G. Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von "Herman Tull [hermantull at gmail.com] Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 16:59 An: Indology Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology I am reading the Adluri/Bagchee book right now; though not without its problems, I have to agree with George Hart's assessment. But, I will also say, as a student of religion (my graduate department had the rather comprehensive and so, too, largely meaningless name, "Department of the History and Literature of Religions"), Americans have long struggled with the precise meaning of "wissenschaftlich." The 19th century American world was a direct descendent of the German academy, but lacked its sophistication. (Somewhere early in the JAOS I recall that the reason given for the turn to Oriental studies was to "keep up with the Joneses"--i.e., the Europeans; not much science there, I am afraid.) cheers, Herman Tull On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:27 AM, George Hart wrote: If you search the book at Amazon, you can read significant parts of it (?Look inside this book?). The authors are serious, well-read scholars and have put a colossal amount of work into their effort. The book strikes me as an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by indologists. George Hart On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas wrote: In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? ?Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly answer :-) ? (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, but I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning editor at OUP NY? Best, Dominik Wujastyk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Herman Tull Princeton, NJ -- Herman Tull Princeton, NJ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 16:40:19 2015 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 22:10:19 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: <37440748-00B4-4C83-9A22-1B5470AB9C8C@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: I do not disagree with this. But this is true of some non-German Indologists too. Was Maxmueller as an Indologist German? He viewed Buddhism as a step towards Chrstianity. Macdonell did not pronounce so. But, as far as I know, he did not say against this view. But Keith distinguished between our lord and their lord. I read these in student life and, hence, cannot cite from the authors..But I could not avoid the impression that chauvinism is universal,.not necessarily a German characteristic. Indian Indologists too often take to self-aggrandizement. But the trend seems to be on the wane since long. Deussen and Tucci were diifferent. So much so good. Best Dipak Bhattacharya . On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 9:30 PM, George Hart wrote: > I have not read the book, only about 15 pages from what Amazon lets us > see. It seems obvious to me that the book needs to be taken seriously. If > scholars disagree vehemently with its method and conclusions, I hope they > will read it and write a review. My own impression (based on just a few > pages) is that the book helps give perspective to the ?science? of Indology > ? how it developed, what social and historical forces guided it, and > perhaps some assumptions of modern scholars that are problematic. I > remember spending a year poring over Geldner, Grassman, and Oldenberg and > being very impressed by their scholarship. The accomplishments of German > Indologists are clearly seminal, but that doesn?t mean it?s not important > to understand the intellectual, cultural and historical circumstances that > inevitably influenced what they wrote. George Hart > > On Jun 12, 2015, at 8:42 AM, Herman Tull wrote: > > > My comment was written before I saw Reinhold's comment. My original > remark was less a matter of supporting ("acclamation") George Hart's > remarks (which I do support), then it was a matter of drawing our attention > to the fact that Americans have struggled with their academic heritage, and > in particular, with the precise sense of "wissenschaftlich." > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold < > gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de> wrote: > >> I hope this is not to suggest that the matter should be decided by >> acclamation. I merely asked Professor Hart to specify a point "that should >> be seriously considered by indologists". My interest does not go beyond >> that. >> >> >> R.G. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Von:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von >> "Herman Tull [hermantull at gmail.com] >> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 16:59 >> *An:* Indology >> *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology >> >> I am reading the Adluri/Bagchee book right now; though not without >> its problems, I have to agree with George Hart's assessment. >> >> But, I will also say, as a student of religion (my graduate department >> had the rather comprehensive and so, too, largely meaningless name, >> "Department of the History and Literature of Religions"), Americans have >> long struggled with the precise meaning of "wissenschaftlich." The 19th >> century American world was a direct descendent of the German academy, but >> lacked its sophistication. (Somewhere early in the JAOS I recall that the >> reason given for the turn to Oriental studies was to "keep up with the >> Joneses"--i.e., the Europeans; not much science there, I am afraid.) >> >> cheers, >> >> Herman Tull >> >> On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:27 AM, George Hart >> wrote: >> >>> If you search the book at Amazon, you can read significant parts of it >>> (?Look inside this book?). The authors are serious, well-read scholars and >>> have put a colossal amount of work into their effort. The book strikes me >>> as an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by >>> indologists. George Hart >>> >>> On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Dominik Wujastyk >>> wrote: >>> >>> On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical >>>> methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? >>>> >>>> >>> ?Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly answer >>> :-) >>> >>> ? >>> (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and >>> Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) >>> >>> I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, >>> but I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning >>> editor at OUP NY? >>> >>> Best, >>> Dominik Wujastyk >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Herman Tull Princeton, NJ * >> > > > > -- > > *Herman TullPrinceton, NJ * > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de Fri Jun 12 16:52:20 2015 From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 16:52:20 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: <37440748-00B4-4C83-9A22-1B5470AB9C8C@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94BA36449F@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de> Dear Professor Hart, thanks for your reply which, however, does not go beyond generalities. The perusal of 15 pages of a book amounting to 494 may not necessarily be regarded the basis for any qualified statement, be it positive or negative. Nevertheless, would you be kind enough to specify a point you found in these 15 pages that you found worth being "seriously considered by indologists"? Thanks in advance Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von "George Hart [glhart at berkeley.edu] Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 18:00 An: Indology List Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology I have not read the book, only about 15 pages from what Amazon lets us see. It seems obvious to me that the book needs to be taken seriously. If scholars disagree vehemently with its method and conclusions, I hope they will read it and write a review. My own impression (based on just a few pages) is that the book helps give perspective to the ?science? of Indology ? how it developed, what social and historical forces guided it, and perhaps some assumptions of modern scholars that are problematic. I remember spending a year poring over Geldner, Grassman, and Oldenberg and being very impressed by their scholarship. The accomplishments of German Indologists are clearly seminal, but that doesn?t mean it?s not important to understand the intellectual, cultural and historical circumstances that inevitably influenced what they wrote. George Hart On Jun 12, 2015, at 8:42 AM, Herman Tull > wrote: My comment was written before I saw Reinhold's comment. My original remark was less a matter of supporting ("acclamation") George Hart's remarks (which I do support), then it was a matter of drawing our attention to the fact that Americans have struggled with their academic heritage, and in particular, with the precise sense of "wissenschaftlich." On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold > wrote: I hope this is not to suggest that the matter should be decided by acclamation. I merely asked Professor Hart to specify a point "that should be seriously considered by indologists". My interest does not go beyond that. R.G. ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von "Herman Tull [hermantull at gmail.com] Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 16:59 An: Indology Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology I am reading the Adluri/Bagchee book right now; though not without its problems, I have to agree with George Hart's assessment. But, I will also say, as a student of religion (my graduate department had the rather comprehensive and so, too, largely meaningless name, "Department of the History and Literature of Religions"), Americans have long struggled with the precise meaning of "wissenschaftlich." The 19th century American world was a direct descendent of the German academy, but lacked its sophistication. (Somewhere early in the JAOS I recall that the reason given for the turn to Oriental studies was to "keep up with the Joneses"--i.e., the Europeans; not much science there, I am afraid.) cheers, Herman Tull On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:27 AM, George Hart > wrote: If you search the book at Amazon, you can read significant parts of it (?Look inside this book?). The authors are serious, well-read scholars and have put a colossal amount of work into their effort. The book strikes me as an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by indologists. George Hart On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas > wrote: In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? ?Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly answer :-) ? (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, but I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning editor at OUP NY? Best, Dominik Wujastyk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Herman Tull Princeton, NJ -- Herman Tull Princeton, NJ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Fri Jun 12 17:09:57 2015 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 10:09:57 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94BA36449F@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de> Message-ID: <2167D31D-4C26-4137-A6F8-FCFCD7CAA243@berkeley.edu> Take a look at 360-363. Nothing earthshaking, but quite interesting and (to those of us who know nothing of the history) revelatory, I think. George Hart > On Jun 12, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold > wrote: > > Dear Professor Hart, > thanks for your reply which, however, does not go beyond generalities. The perusal of 15 pages of a book amounting to 494 may not necessarily be regarded the basis for any qualified statement, be it positive or negative. > > Nevertheless, would you be kind enough to specify a point you found in these 15 pages that you found worth being "seriously considered by indologists"? > > Thanks in advance > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > > Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info ]" im Auftrag von "George Hart [glhart at berkeley.edu ] > Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 18:00 > An: Indology List > Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology > > I have not read the book, only about 15 pages from what Amazon lets us see. It seems obvious to me that the book needs to be taken seriously. If scholars disagree vehemently with its method and conclusions, I hope they will read it and write a review. My own impression (based on just a few pages) is that the book helps give perspective to the ?science? of Indology ? how it developed, what social and historical forces guided it, and perhaps some assumptions of modern scholars that are problematic. I remember spending a year poring over Geldner, Grassman, and Oldenberg and being very impressed by their scholarship. The accomplishments of German Indologists are clearly seminal, but that doesn?t mean it?s not important to understand the intellectual, cultural and historical circumstances that inevitably influenced what they wrote. George Hart > >> On Jun 12, 2015, at 8:42 AM, Herman Tull > wrote: >> >> >> My comment was written before I saw Reinhold's comment. My original remark was less a matter of supporting ("acclamation") George Hart's remarks (which I do support), then it was a matter of drawing our attention to the fact that Americans have struggled with their academic heritage, and in particular, with the precise sense of "wissenschaftlich." >> >> On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold > wrote: >> I hope this is not to suggest that the matter should be decided by acclamation. I merely asked Professor Hart to specify a point "that should be seriously considered by indologists". My interest does not go beyond that. >> >> >> R.G. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info ]" im Auftrag von "Herman Tull [hermantull at gmail.com ] >> Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 16:59 >> An: Indology >> Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology >> >> I am reading the Adluri/Bagchee book right now; though not without its problems, I have to agree with George Hart's assessment. >> >> But, I will also say, as a student of religion (my graduate department had the rather comprehensive and so, too, largely meaningless name, "Department of the History and Literature of Religions"), Americans have long struggled with the precise meaning of "wissenschaftlich." The 19th century American world was a direct descendent of the German academy, but lacked its sophistication. (Somewhere early in the JAOS I recall that the reason given for the turn to Oriental studies was to "keep up with the Joneses"--i.e., the Europeans; not much science there, I am afraid.) >> >> cheers, >> >> Herman Tull >> >> On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:27 AM, George Hart > wrote: >> If you search the book at Amazon, you can read significant parts of it (?Look inside this book?). The authors are serious, well-read scholars and have put a colossal amount of work into their effort. The book strikes me as an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by indologists. George Hart >> >>> On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: >>> >>> On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas > wrote: >>> >>> >>> In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? >>> >>> >>> ?Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly answer :-) >>> >>> ? >>> (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) >>> >>> I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, but I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning editor at OUP NY? >>> >>> Best, >>> Dominik Wujastyk >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> -- >> Herman Tull >> Princeton, NJ >> >> >> >> -- >> Herman Tull >> Princeton, NJ >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de Fri Jun 12 17:26:15 2015 From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 17:26:15 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: <2167D31D-4C26-4137-A6F8-FCFCD7CAA243@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94BA3644BC@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de> The section you refer to part of the chapter entitled "Steps toward a scientific indology", and the 3-4 pages alone are a tall order. Perhaps you could name one particular point that you find "revelatory" (by "name" I do not mean page reference). Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von "George Hart [glhart at berkeley.edu] Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 19:09 An: Indology List Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology Take a look at 360-363. Nothing earthshaking, but quite interesting and (to those of us who know nothing of the history) revelatory, I think. George Hart On Jun 12, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold > wrote: Dear Professor Hart, thanks for your reply which, however, does not go beyond generalities. The perusal of 15 pages of a book amounting to 494 may not necessarily be regarded the basis for any qualified statement, be it positive or negative. Nevertheless, would you be kind enough to specify a point you found in these 15 pages that you found worth being "seriously considered by indologists"? Thanks in advance Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von "George Hart [glhart at berkeley.edu] Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 18:00 An: Indology List Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology I have not read the book, only about 15 pages from what Amazon lets us see. It seems obvious to me that the book needs to be taken seriously. If scholars disagree vehemently with its method and conclusions, I hope they will read it and write a review. My own impression (based on just a few pages) is that the book helps give perspective to the ?science? of Indology ? how it developed, what social and historical forces guided it, and perhaps some assumptions of modern scholars that are problematic. I remember spending a year poring over Geldner, Grassman, and Oldenberg and being very impressed by their scholarship. The accomplishments of German Indologists are clearly seminal, but that doesn?t mean it?s not important to understand the intellectual, cultural and historical circumstances that inevitably influenced what they wrote. George Hart On Jun 12, 2015, at 8:42 AM, Herman Tull > wrote: My comment was written before I saw Reinhold's comment. My original remark was less a matter of supporting ("acclamation") George Hart's remarks (which I do support), then it was a matter of drawing our attention to the fact that Americans have struggled with their academic heritage, and in particular, with the precise sense of "wissenschaftlich." On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold > wrote: I hope this is not to suggest that the matter should be decided by acclamation. I merely asked Professor Hart to specify a point "that should be seriously considered by indologists". My interest does not go beyond that. R.G. ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von "Herman Tull [hermantull at gmail.com] Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 16:59 An: Indology Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology I am reading the Adluri/Bagchee book right now; though not without its problems, I have to agree with George Hart's assessment. But, I will also say, as a student of religion (my graduate department had the rather comprehensive and so, too, largely meaningless name, "Department of the History and Literature of Religions"), Americans have long struggled with the precise meaning of "wissenschaftlich." The 19th century American world was a direct descendent of the German academy, but lacked its sophistication. (Somewhere early in the JAOS I recall that the reason given for the turn to Oriental studies was to "keep up with the Joneses"--i.e., the Europeans; not much science there, I am afraid.) cheers, Herman Tull On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:27 AM, George Hart > wrote: If you search the book at Amazon, you can read significant parts of it (?Look inside this book?). The authors are serious, well-read scholars and have put a colossal amount of work into their effort. The book strikes me as an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by indologists. George Hart On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas > wrote: In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? ?Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly answer :-) ? (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, but I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning editor at OUP NY? Best, Dominik Wujastyk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Herman Tull Princeton, NJ -- Herman Tull Princeton, NJ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From franco at uni-leipzig.de Fri Jun 12 17:34:51 2015 From: franco at uni-leipzig.de (Franco) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 19:34:51 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: <2167D31D-4C26-4137-A6F8-FCFCD7CAA243@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <0958195F-39DC-4D01-A8D3-F015B55D7E72@uni-leipzig.de> I only read about half the book, so I am not well qualified to respond. My impression was that the book started as a project on the Bhagavadgita, which was a bit expanded to include the history of research on the Mahabharata. The whole thing was then packaged as a history of German Indology, but obviously the book does not deliver what its subtitle promises. The authors are blissfully ignorant of German Indology, and they probably know it. They claim to provide a history of German Indology by sketching a history of its method. But Indology, the German included, does not have a method (in the sense that it does not have a single method, as the authors imagine). I was told that one of the authors, I can't remember which, was failed PhD student of Michael Hahn, which explains perhaps the nasty tone of expression throughout the book. Best wishes, Eli Sent from my iPad > On 12 Jun 2015, at 19:09, George Hart wrote: > > Take a look at 360-363. Nothing earthshaking, but quite interesting and (to those of us who know nothing of the history) revelatory, I think. George Hart > >> On Jun 12, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold wrote: >> >> Dear Professor Hart, >> thanks for your reply which, however, does not go beyond generalities. The perusal of 15 pages of a book amounting to 494 may not necessarily be regarded the basis for any qualified statement, be it positive or negative. >> >> Nevertheless, would you be kind enough to specify a point you found in these 15 pages that you found worth being "seriously considered by indologists"? >> >> Thanks in advance >> Reinhold Gr?nendahl >> >> >> >> Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von "George Hart [glhart at berkeley.edu] >> Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 18:00 >> An: Indology List >> Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology >> >> I have not read the book, only about 15 pages from what Amazon lets us see. It seems obvious to me that the book needs to be taken seriously. If scholars disagree vehemently with its method and conclusions, I hope they will read it and write a review. My own impression (based on just a few pages) is that the book helps give perspective to the ?science? of Indology ? how it developed, what social and historical forces guided it, and perhaps some assumptions of modern scholars that are problematic. I remember spending a year poring over Geldner, Grassman, and Oldenberg and being very impressed by their scholarship. The accomplishments of German Indologists are clearly seminal, but that doesn?t mean it?s not important to understand the intellectual, cultural and historical circumstances that inevitably influenced what they wrote. George Hart >> >>> On Jun 12, 2015, at 8:42 AM, Herman Tull wrote: >>> >>> >>> My comment was written before I saw Reinhold's comment. My original remark was less a matter of supporting ("acclamation") George Hart's remarks (which I do support), then it was a matter of drawing our attention to the fact that Americans have struggled with their academic heritage, and in particular, with the precise sense of "wissenschaftlich." >>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold wrote: >>>> I hope this is not to suggest that the matter should be decided by acclamation. I merely asked Professor Hart to specify a point "that should be seriously considered by indologists". My interest does not go beyond that. >>>> >>>> >>>> R.G. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von "Herman Tull [hermantull at gmail.com] >>>> Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 16:59 >>>> An: Indology >>>> Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology >>>> >>>> I am reading the Adluri/Bagchee book right now; though not without its problems, I have to agree with George Hart's assessment. >>>> >>>> But, I will also say, as a student of religion (my graduate department had the rather comprehensive and so, too, largely meaningless name, "Department of the History and Literature of Religions"), Americans have long struggled with the precise meaning of "wissenschaftlich." The 19th century American world was a direct descendent of the German academy, but lacked its sophistication. (Somewhere early in the JAOS I recall that the reason given for the turn to Oriental studies was to "keep up with the Joneses"--i.e., the Europeans; not much science there, I am afraid.) >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> >>>> Herman Tull >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:27 AM, George Hart wrote: >>>>> If you search the book at Amazon, you can read significant parts of it (?Look inside this book?). The authors are serious, well-read scholars and have put a colossal amount of work into their effort. The book strikes me as an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by indologists. George Hart >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ?Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly answer :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> ? >>>>>> (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) >>>>>> >>>>>> I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, but I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning editor at OUP NY? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Dominik Wujastyk >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Herman Tull >>>> Princeton, NJ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Herman Tull >>> Princeton, NJ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmcgrath at fas.harvard.edu Fri Jun 12 17:46:49 2015 From: kmcgrath at fas.harvard.edu (kmcgrath at fas.harvard.edu) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 13:46:49 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: <0958195F-39DC-4D01-A8D3-F015B55D7E72@uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <1434131209.557b1b09a388a@webmail.fas.harvard.edu> Dear List, I would like to echo what Eli has just said.. The Nay Science is a judicious summary of Holtzmann and Lassen et al but it does not really address the text of the poem itself, which is where the ultimate test of the argument must surely lie. With best wishes, from, Kevin. Quoting Franco : > I only read about half the book, so I am not well qualified to respond. My > impression was that the book started as a project on the Bhagavadgita, which > was a bit expanded to include the history of research on the Mahabharata. The > whole thing was then packaged as a history of German Indology, but obviously > the book does not deliver what its subtitle promises. The authors are > blissfully ignorant of German Indology, and they probably know it. They claim > to provide a history of German Indology by sketching a history of its method. > But Indology, the German included, does not have a method (in the sense that > it does not have a single method, as the authors imagine). > I was told that one of the authors, I can't remember which, was failed PhD > student of Michael Hahn, which explains perhaps the nasty tone of expression > throughout the book. > Best wishes, > Eli > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 12 Jun 2015, at 19:09, George Hart wrote: > > > > Take a look at 360-363. Nothing earthshaking, but quite interesting and (to > those of us who know nothing of the history) revelatory, I think. George Hart > > > >> On Jun 12, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold > wrote: > >> > >> Dear Professor Hart, > >> thanks for your reply which, however, does not go beyond generalities. The > perusal of 15 pages of a book amounting to 494 may not necessarily be > regarded the basis for any qualified statement, be it positive or negative. > >> > >> Nevertheless, would you be kind enough to specify a point you found in > these 15 pages that you found worth being "seriously considered by > indologists"? > >> > >> Thanks in advance > >> Reinhold Gr??nendahl > >> > >> > >> > >> Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von > "George Hart [glhart at berkeley.edu] > >> Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 18:00 > >> An: Indology List > >> Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology > >> > >> I have not read the book, only about 15 pages from what Amazon lets us > see. It seems obvious to me that the book needs to be taken seriously. If > scholars disagree vehemently with its method and conclusions, I hope they > will read it and write a review. My own impression (based on just a few > pages) is that the book helps give perspective to the ???science??? of > Indology ??? how it developed, what social and historical forces guided it, > and perhaps some assumptions of modern scholars that are problematic. I > remember spending a year poring over Geldner, Grassman, and Oldenberg and > being very impressed by their scholarship. The accomplishments of German > Indologists are clearly seminal, but that doesn???t mean it???s not important > to understand the intellectual, cultural and historical circumstances that > inevitably influenced what they wrote. George Hart > >> > >>> On Jun 12, 2015, at 8:42 AM, Herman Tull wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> My comment was written before I saw Reinhold's comment. My original > remark was less a matter of supporting ("acclamation") George Hart's remarks > (which I do support), then it was a matter of drawing our attention to the > fact that Americans have struggled with their academic heritage, and in > particular, with the precise sense of "wissenschaftlich." > >>> > >>>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold > wrote: > >>>> I hope this is not to suggest that the matter should be decided by > acclamation. I merely asked Professor Hart to specify a point "that should be > seriously considered by indologists". My interest does not go beyond that. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> R.G. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von > "Herman Tull [hermantull at gmail.com] > >>>> Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 16:59 > >>>> An: Indology > >>>> Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology > >>>> > >>>> I am reading the Adluri/Bagchee book right now; though not without its > problems, I have to agree with George Hart's assessment. > >>>> > >>>> But, I will also say, as a student of religion (my graduate department > had the rather comprehensive and so, too, largely meaningless name, > "Department of the History and Literature of Religions"), Americans have long > struggled with the precise meaning of "wissenschaftlich." The 19th century > American world was a direct descendent of the German academy, but lacked its > sophistication. (Somewhere early in the JAOS I recall that the reason given > for the turn to Oriental studies was to "keep up with the Joneses"--i.e., the > Europeans; not much science there, I am afraid.) > >>>> > >>>> cheers, > >>>> > >>>> Herman Tull > >>>> > >>>>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:27 AM, George Hart > wrote: > >>>>> If you search the book at Amazon, you can read significant parts of it > (???Look inside this book???). The authors are serious, well-read scholars > and have put a colossal amount of work into their effort. The book strikes me > as an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by > indologists. George Hart > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 12 June 2015 at 14:15, Philipp Maas > wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In reading these lines, I get quite puzzled. Are historical-critical > methods in general flawed, or only when practiced by Germans? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ???Only when practised by Germans, as any Italian would certainly > answer :-) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ??? > >>>>>> (This refers to a running joke between some of us British, German and > Italian philologists here at the Vienna department.) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I suppose the Adluri & Bagchee book deserves a more serious response, > but I'm not interested personally. How did this get by the commissioning > editor at OUP NY? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Best, > >>>>>> Dominik Wujastyk > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list > >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list > >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Herman Tull > >>>> Princeton, NJ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Herman Tull > >>> Princeton, NJ > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> INDOLOGY mailing list > >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > From slaje at kabelmail.de Fri Jun 12 18:06:05 2015 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 20:06:05 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: <0958195F-39DC-4D01-A8D3-F015B55D7E72@uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, as it happens, Michael Hahn has left a published statement on the background of the shameful events at the University of Marburg just referred to by Prof. Franco. He added it as a "supplement" to a paper dealing with the matter by his successor J?rgen Hanneder, which I have attached to this mail for your kind information (pp. 136f). In Michael Hahn's own words: [image: Inline-Bild 2] [image: Inline-Bild 1] ?Kindly regarding, Walter Slaje? ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hanneder-Pretence-and-Prejudice.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1480341 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Fri Jun 12 18:46:14 2015 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 11:46:14 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <437EFCBF-8767-4A4A-81E9-16BBAAAE1AE2@berkeley.edu> My, this has stirred up a hornet?s nest, hasn?t it? If the book is so bad, why doesn?t someone do an impartial review and refute its major theses? Obviously, the book will be considered important by many, a successor to Said?s work (see the blurb on Amazon from Hiltebeitel?s review). I don?t find any of the negative replies on Indology so far substantive ? they are, rather, general impressions or unflattering stories about the authors which, even if true, do not directly concern their book. Why is it so bad? I certainly agree it is unconscionable to associate anyone with ?Nazi ideology? unless they have publicly defended the Nazis or, like Heidegger, actually joined the Nazi party. This is my last post on the subject. GH > On Jun 12, 2015, at 11:06 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > as it happens, Michael Hahn has left a published statement on the background of the shameful events at the University of Marburg just referred to by Prof. Franco. He added it as a "supplement" to a paper dealing with the matter by his successor J?rgen Hanneder, which I have attached to this mail for your kind information (pp. 136f). In Michael Hahn's own words: > > > > > ?Kindly regarding, > Walter Slaje? > > ----------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar > Deutschland > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de Fri Jun 12 19:04:24 2015 From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 19:04:24 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology In-Reply-To: <437EFCBF-8767-4A4A-81E9-16BBAAAE1AE2@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94BA3644E2@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de> Dear Professor Hart, what concerns me is not why others find "the book is so bad", but why you consider it "an important contribution whose ideas should be seriously considered by indologists", and, in your latest pronouncement, "obviously, (...) considered important by many, a successor to Said?s work (see the blurb on Amazon from Hiltebeitel?s review)". So far, you have not named a single point in illustration. R.G. ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von "George Hart [glhart at berkeley.edu] Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 20:46 An: Indology List Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology My, this has stirred up a hornet?s nest, hasn?t it? If the book is so bad, why doesn?t someone do an impartial review and refute its major theses? Obviously, the book will be considered important by many, a successor to Said?s work (see the blurb on Amazon from Hiltebeitel?s review). I don?t find any of the negative replies on Indology so far substantive ? they are, rather, general impressions or unflattering stories about the authors which, even if true, do not directly concern their book. Why is it so bad? I certainly agree it is unconscionable to associate anyone with ?Nazi ideology? unless they have publicly defended the Nazis or, like Heidegger, actually joined the Nazi party. This is my last post on the subject. GH On Jun 12, 2015, at 11:06 AM, Walter Slaje > wrote: Dear Colleagues, as it happens, Michael Hahn has left a published statement on the background of the shameful events at the University of Marburg just referred to by Prof. Franco. He added it as a "supplement" to a paper dealing with the matter by his successor J?rgen Hanneder, which I have attached to this mail for your kind information (pp. 136f). In Michael Hahn's own words: ?Kindly regarding, Walter Slaje? ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From whitakjl at wfu.edu Fri Jun 12 20:31:20 2015 From: whitakjl at wfu.edu (Jarrod Whitaker) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 15 16:31:20 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A Concerned Citizen (of ancient India) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <557B4198.4010204@wfu.edu> Dear Colleagues: I make here the first (public) appeal for a time-out on issues to do with Arya-identity, migration/invasion, IVC, and the dovetailed topic of Indology and its history. I am not downplaying the importance of these topics and the role they play (and need to play) in professional discussions. However, some of the responses are becoming interestingly acrimonious, ad hominem, and unprofessional. We are talking about real people, real lives and careers (of those who lived in the IVC, of those who spoke Indo-Arya languages several millennia ago, and of dead or alive Indologists or scholars of ancient India). While this is an appeal to emotion, I am sure we can all agree that we should exercise some (or complete) restraint when invoking (inter)personal histories and how these may or may not impact scholarly conclusions. In addition, when a scholar makes a simple charitable statement to the effect that we should read a book in full before drawing any conclusions, I would hope that posting information about sources that directly engage in the issues would be enough for listserve members. Put glibly, no one is going to win an argument in this forum....As we all know (but sometimes forget) this takes more space than a listserve and requires time and a process of consensus building via conferences, papers, books, and a self-reflexive willingness to change one's views in the face of logical argumentation and critical interpretation of evidence among a peer community. With warmest regards Jarrod Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. Associate Professor, Asian Religions Graduate Program Director Wake Forest University Department for the Study of Religions P.O. Box 7212 Winston-Salem, NC 27109 whitakjl at wfu.edu p 336.758.4162 From jemhouben at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 16:40:58 2015 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 15 18:40:58 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_On_the_occasion_of_Otto_B=C3=B6htlingk's_recent_birthday_bicentenary?= Message-ID: Dear All, Occupied in a fascinating seminar in Paris on the beginnings of professional sanskrit studies in Europe (? Antoine-L?onard de Ch?zy et les d?buts des ?tudes sanskrites en Europe, 1800-1850 ?), I was not yet able to contribute my hommage to Otto B?htlingk, whose birthday bicentenary was yesterday (11 June 1815 acc. to Gregorian calendar). Important remarks on this occasion have circulated yesterday on the "IndoloGIE" forum. I'd like to especially highlight his foundational work in the domains of modern Sanskrit lexicography, Vedic studies and grammar (vy?krti = vy?kara?a). ???????????? ???????? ?????????????????? ? ????????????-???????? ???????? ?? ??????? ? About the relationship B?htlingk - Mendeleev we may hear more at the Linguistics Section at the upcoming World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok. jan houben *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 17:28:05 2015 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 15 10:28:05 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_On_the_occasion_of_Otto_B=C3=B6htlingk's_recent_birthday_bicentenary?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7AAA30A7-DA97-456B-8FB4-5C6EBDC7C1D7@mail.ubc.ca> Thanks, Jan, for the reminder about B?htlingk?s birthday bicentenary. B?htlingk was truly an exceptional scholar. Your verse tribute is excellent. a.a. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From veerankp at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 20:18:17 2015 From: veerankp at gmail.com (Veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 15 01:48:17 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: dear all here it seems many high scholars are truly concerned over future of India? I put the things steps by steps for analysing. and I submit my views. sorry for lengthy write up. 1. Sanskrit department in Delhi wants to prove that there was no Aryan invasion and Vedic texts date back to 8000 BC or something. 2. According to most experts there are no proofs to substantiate it as the economic times reporter puts it "But then the Sanskrit expert *(Bharadvaj) [italics mine]* makes some troublesome claims by asserting that the set of people referred to as Aryans by the European scholars were "indigenous" Sanskrit speakers whose texts date back to 8,000 BC. The professor makes these claims though he does not have any archaeological evidence or other such to back him in terms of historicity. * Narrative sans Evidence* Bhardwaj's narrative is another instance of identifying ancient India with a Sanskritic narrative and that too without evidence. The idea becomes a bit fuzzy considering that in recent times genetic studies have established and proved beyond doubt that there are tribal communities in India that are 65,000 years old. * So even though he has not taken into account the evidence provided by genetic scientists about the antiquity of tribal communities in India,* the Sanskrit professor and his team plan to compare available material on the Aryan theory in school textbooks with Sanskrit texts. The team will also make recommendations to the education ministry on correcting the distortions." http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-01-18/news/58200761_1_sanskrit-department-aryans-modern-india 3. it seems that Economic times reporter has too become an expert on Ancient India to declare that Bharadvaj is proof-less man. For more info on wide ranging expertise of this reporter "KP Narayana Kumar" see this link http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/etreporter/author-K-P-Narayana-Kumar,filterby-3.cms. God knows how he writes like this. 4. Dilip Chakravarti is worried By this act of Bharadvaj and puts the proposal was "racist and historically puerile" and he advises this dept. "The Sanskrit department of Delhi University would do a much better job training some palaeographers and epigraphists, who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country, without bothering about something as racist and historically puerile as Aryans," Chakrabarti said in an email to a query from *The Telegraph*." 5. again many scholars are worried about "racist and historically puerile" and start a discussion in this list. 6. one scholar (Dr.Jesse) puts it "This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo- European language. *To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic.**" (8.6.15)* "I know that IVC seals have not been deciphered, but simply wished to point out that in all probability, *in the opinion of most experts, they did not speak an Indo-European or Indo-Aryan language. The only people who believe otherwise are the true racists and chauvinists, the Hindutva morons who sadly are in a position of great power in your country today.* * (11.6.15).* *7. *Then the discussions turned on other issues as to whether IVC was dravidian or something else and other matters. 8. I want to raise objections to Dr.Jesse's derogatory wordings for Indians. Bharadvaj is merely proposing to re-examine the IVC/AIT theory propagated by western historians. it is clear from Telegraph report *"**We are trying to prove the chronology of the Sanskrit texts*. By doing that, if the Aryan immigration theory is destroyed, that is an additional benefit," Bhardwaj argued. He said the mainstream history textbooks say that India's earliest civilisation came up in Harappa around 2800 BC and that the Aryans arrived from Central Asia around 1500 BC. "*We question this theory by western historians*," Bhardwaj said. "They claim the Vedic period dates back to between 1500 BC and 2000 BC. *We have doubts.* If we establish the chronology of the Sanskrit texts, things will be clear."" 9. *is questioning anything is racial*? I wonder why reputed scholars like Cardona Aklujkar and Deshpande etc in this forum are silent on this person's declaration. ? ?? ?????? ?? ? ????????? ??????. This is insult to academic freedom. 10. *is Having doubts on anything racial*? this statement shows the level of arrogance. 11. And Dr. Jesse advises Nagaraj Paturi "*try to discern the intent of someone's comments, before you start using heated language, and calling people racists and chauvinists*" while himself uses the words again all the scholars who think otherwise.(see his sentence quoted above in the mail 8.6.15). *What is this? What authority he has to declare all of us racists? why supporters of free speech are silent? do they agree to the Idea of Dr.Jesse? This is serious offence on academic differences. I ask for apologies from Dr. Jesse. he should withdraw his statement.* *12. Finally Dr. Jesse is directly accusing the Elected Prime Minister of India as moron, racist and chauvanist (since Mr.Modi is in power now) * *This is too big assault on the Whole of Indian people who have elected Modi. This is serious blunder. that would lead to unnecessary complications. * 13. Dilip Chakrabarti's statement in the following link needs attention Speaking to ET, Chakrabarti said, "David Frawley is not an academic. Why should he be invited to deliver an academic lecture?" *"It's a fact there is a long shadow of the Left on history writing in India. But we need to correct that through proper academic research*. We cannot achieve that with the likes of Mr. Frawley." http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-03-27/news/60553899_1_ichr-y-sudershan-rao-history-wing . 14. *what is wrong if Bhardvaj said "**that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t?**"? *IVC was from the Undivided Bharat Mata itself. it is clear that Bharadvaj is not saying that all the good things elsewhere in the world originate from Bharat Mata. 15. *it seems that some people here enjoy whenever a controversial/ derogatory news on Indian academics is published anywhere in the world. that would immediately come to discussion here. they are eager to share it with indology. this shows the mindset of people. it happened in the cases of Mein kemph and Hindus by Dr. Wendy Doniger.* 16. I thank Howard Resnick for raising objections on "Racist" 17. I finally attach a paper written by Thangaraj on the genetics that disproves the influx of people into India. We need to discuss and sort out problems rather than creating them. sorry for lengthy mail and the problems it causes. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Jesse Knutson wrote: > I think Dilip Chakrabarty is actually thinking about racism from a totally > different angle. What is racist is the notion that 'aryans'--the speakers > of Old Indo-Aryan, or what have you--originated within the subcontinent, > and that they predate and include the Indus Valley Civilization. Bharadvaj > clearly wants to demonstrate that the composers of the Vedas were > indigenous, and of an antiquity greater than the Indus Valley Civilization. > This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural chauvinism that > anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. Bharadvaj wants > to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, > when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater > antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European > language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of > Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Simon Brodbeck > wrote: > >> Dear Howard, >> >> >> >> I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a >> semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word >> Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or >> something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as >> ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): >> >> >> >> *A.* adj. >> >> *1.* >> >> a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, >> which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and >> Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called *Indo-European*, >> *Indo-Germanic*, and sometimes *Japhetic*; by others restricted to the >> Asiatic portion of these. *absol.*, the original Aryan or Arian language. >> >> b. *spec.* Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. >> >> *2.* Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of >> Germany of non-Jewish extraction. >> >> >> >> *B.* n. >> >> 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the >> ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. >> >> *2.* *spec.* under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2 >> ). >> >> >> >> I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. >> But I can?t speak for him. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Simon Brodbeck >> >> Cardiff University >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *On Behalf >> Of *Howard Resnick >> *Sent:* 08 June 2015 15:10 >> *To:* Geoffrey Samuel >> *Cc:* Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding >> indology at the IHRC >> >> >> >> As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj >> states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj >> does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, >> term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Howard >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel >> wrote: >> >> >> >> If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph >> article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was >> 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a >> waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically >> referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon >> be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. >> >> >> >> That seems a reasonable and defensible position. >> >> >> >> Geoffrey >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >> Howard Resnick
>> *Sent:* 08 June 2015 09:12 >> *To:* Dominik Wujastyk >> *Cc:* Indology List >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding >> indology at the IHRC >> >> >> >> "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology >> with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research >> project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. >> >> >> >> How racist? >> >> >> >> h.r. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk >> wrote: >> >> >> >> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific > Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 452A Spalding > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Director of Academics Dean, Faculty of Vedantas Karnakata Samskrita University, Pampa Mahakavi Road, Chamarajpet, Bengaluru. ?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ? ?????? ??????????????? ?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? (?.??.) http://www.ksu.ac.in http://www.ksu.ac.in/en/dr-veeranarayana-n-k-pandurangi/ https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Kumarsamythangarajpaper.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1838724 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 23:32:08 2015 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 15 19:32:08 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Prof. Pandurangi, Our good colleague, Prof. Whitaker, has appealed to us all to stop this discussion. And all of us have wisely done so, except for you. Why insult Prof. Knutson by referring to him as "Prof. Jesse"? Then you go on to compare Prof. Doniger to Hitler. The reason why we should avoid these sorts of highly emotional discussions is that they almost always degenerate into this kind of over-emotional rhetoric. If you want to argue that Vedic Sanskrit is 10,000 years, please feel free. But you have no viable evidence for this claim, since we have no evidence whatsoever for any writing system that is that old. Brief allusions have been made to the stark differences between urban IVC and nomadic pastoralist Vedic culture. In IVC lots of fish signs and unicorns. Both are completely absent in Vedic. In Vedic lots of references to horses and chariots. Both completely absent in IVC. [There's a lot more to say about how culturally different IVC is from Vedic [BTW]. If you want to talk about genetics, please do. To attack German scholars in particular is rather strange to me, since most European and Russian and American Indologists have the same views, as well most Asian Indologists and Latin American Indologists. I knew that this would happen, as did Prof. Whitaker. So I second his request, let us stop this fruitless argument. Best wishes George Thompson On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Veeranarayana Pandurangi < veerankp at gmail.com> wrote: > dear all > here it seems many high scholars are truly concerned over future of India? > > I put the things steps by steps for analysing. and I submit my views. > sorry for lengthy write up. > > 1. Sanskrit department in Delhi wants to prove that there was no Aryan > invasion and Vedic texts date back to 8000 BC or something. > > 2. According to most experts there are no proofs to substantiate it as the > economic times reporter puts it > > "But then the Sanskrit expert *(Bharadvaj) [italics > mine]* makes some troublesome claims by asserting that the set of people > referred to as Aryans by the European scholars were > "indigenous" Sanskrit speakers whose texts date back to 8,000 BC. The > professor makes these claims though he does not have any archaeological > evidence or other such to back him in terms of historicity. > * Narrative sans Evidence* > > Bhardwaj's narrative is another instance of identifying > ancient India with a Sanskritic narrative and that too without evidence. > > The idea becomes a bit fuzzy considering that in recent > times genetic studies have established and proved beyond doubt that there > are tribal communities in India that are 65,000 years > old. > * So even though he has not taken into account the evidence > provided by genetic scientists about the antiquity of tribal communities in > India,* the Sanskrit professor and his team plan to > compare available material on the Aryan theory in school textbooks with > Sanskrit texts. The team will also make recommendations to the education > ministry on correcting the distortions." > > http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-01-18/news/58200761_1_sanskrit-department-aryans-modern-india > > 3. it seems that Economic times reporter has too become an expert on > Ancient India to declare that Bharadvaj is proof-less man. For more info on > wide ranging expertise of this reporter "KP Narayana Kumar" see this link > http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/etreporter/author-K-P-Narayana-Kumar,filterby-3.cms. > God knows how he writes like this. > > 4. Dilip Chakravarti is worried By this act of Bharadvaj and puts the > proposal was "racist and historically puerile" and he advises this dept. "The > Sanskrit department of Delhi University would do a much better job training > some palaeographers and epigraphists, who will soon be an extinct class of > scholars in the country, without bothering about something as racist and > historically puerile as Aryans," Chakrabarti said in an email to a query > from *The Telegraph*." > > 5. again many scholars are worried about "racist and historically > puerile" and start a discussion in this list. > 6. one scholar (Dr.Jesse) puts it > "This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural > chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. > Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley > Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a > highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which > did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo- European language. *To > attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is > extremely racist and chauvinistic.**" (8.6.15)* > > "I know that IVC seals have not been deciphered, but simply > wished to point out that in all probability, *in the opinion of most > experts, they did not speak an Indo-European or > Indo-Aryan language. The only people who believe otherwise are the true > racists and chauvinists, the Hindutva morons who sadly are in a position of > great power in your country today.* > * (11.6.15).* > > *7. *Then the discussions turned on other issues as to whether IVC was > dravidian or something else and other matters. > > 8. I want to raise objections to Dr.Jesse's derogatory wordings for > Indians. Bharadvaj is merely proposing to re-examine the IVC/AIT theory > propagated by western historians. it is clear from Telegraph report > *"**We are trying to prove the chronology of the > Sanskrit texts*. By doing that, if the Aryan immigration theory is > destroyed, that is an additional benefit," Bhardwaj argued. > > He said the mainstream history textbooks say that > India's earliest civilisation came up in Harappa around 2800 BC and that > the Aryans arrived from Central Asia around 1500 BC. > "*We question this theory by western historians*," > Bhardwaj said. "They claim the Vedic period dates back to between 1500 BC > and 2000 BC. *We have doubts.* If we establish the chronology of > the Sanskrit texts, things will be clear."" > > 9. *is questioning anything is racial*? I wonder why reputed scholars > like Cardona Aklujkar and Deshpande etc in this forum are silent on this > person's declaration. ? ?? ?????? ?? ? ????????? ??????. This is insult to > academic freedom. > > 10. *is Having doubts on anything racial*? this statement shows the > level of arrogance. > > 11. And Dr. Jesse advises Nagaraj Paturi "*try to discern the intent of > someone's comments, before you start using heated language, and calling > people racists and chauvinists*" while himself uses the words again all > the scholars who think otherwise.(see his sentence quoted above in the mail > 8.6.15). > > *What is this? What authority he has to declare all of us racists? why > supporters of free speech are silent? do they agree to the Idea of > Dr.Jesse? This is serious offence on academic differences. I ask for > apologies from Dr. Jesse. he should withdraw his statement.* > > *12. Finally Dr. Jesse is directly accusing the Elected Prime Minister of > India as moron, racist and chauvanist (since Mr.Modi is in power now) * > *This is too big assault on the Whole of Indian people who have elected > Modi. This is serious blunder. that would lead to unnecessary > complications. * > > 13. Dilip Chakrabarti's statement in the following link needs attention > Speaking to ET, Chakrabarti said, "David Frawley is not an > academic. Why should he be invited to deliver an academic lecture?" *"It's > a fact there is a long shadow of the Left on history writing > in India. But we need to correct that through proper academic research*. > We cannot achieve that with the likes of Mr. Frawley." > > http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-03-27/news/60553899_1_ichr-y-sudershan-rao-history-wing > . > > 14. *what is wrong if Bhardvaj said "**that anything good must originate > in the womb of Bharata M?t?**"? *IVC was from the Undivided Bharat Mata > itself. it is clear that Bharadvaj is not saying that all the good things > elsewhere in the world originate from Bharat Mata. > > 15. *it seems that some people here enjoy whenever a controversial/ > derogatory news on Indian academics is published anywhere in the world. > that would immediately come to discussion here. they are eager to share it > with indology. this shows the mindset of people. it happened in the cases > of Mein kemph and Hindus by Dr. Wendy Doniger.* > > 16. I thank Howard Resnick for raising objections on "Racist" > > 17. I finally attach a paper written by Thangaraj on the genetics that > disproves the influx of people into India. > > We need to discuss and sort out problems rather than creating them. > > sorry for lengthy mail and the problems it causes. > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Jesse Knutson > wrote: > >> I think Dilip Chakrabarty is actually thinking about racism from a >> totally different angle. What is racist is the notion that 'aryans'--the >> speakers of Old Indo-Aryan, or what have you--originated within the >> subcontinent, and that they predate and include the Indus Valley >> Civilization. Bharadvaj clearly wants to demonstrate that the composers of >> the Vedas were indigenous, and of an antiquity greater than the Indus >> Valley Civilization. This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural >> chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. >> Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the >> Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of >> greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or >> Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the >> speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. >> >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Simon Brodbeck >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Howard, >>> >>> >>> >>> I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a >>> semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word >>> Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or >>> something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as >>> ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): >>> >>> >>> >>> *A.* adj. >>> >>> *1.* >>> >>> a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, >>> which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and >>> Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called *Indo-European*, >>> *Indo-Germanic*, and sometimes *Japhetic*; by others restricted to the >>> Asiatic portion of these. *absol.*, the original Aryan or Arian >>> language. >>> >>> b. *spec.* Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. >>> >>> *2.* Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of >>> Germany of non-Jewish extraction. >>> >>> >>> >>> *B.* n. >>> >>> 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, >>> the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. >>> >>> *2.* *spec.* under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2 >>> ). >>> >>> >>> >>> I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and >>> B1. But I can?t speak for him. >>> >>> >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Simon Brodbeck >>> >>> Cardiff University >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *On >>> Behalf Of *Howard Resnick >>> *Sent:* 08 June 2015 15:10 >>> *To:* Geoffrey Samuel >>> *Cc:* Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List >>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding >>> indology at the IHRC >>> >>> >>> >>> As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj >>> states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj >>> does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, >>> term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Howard >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph >>> article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was >>> 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a >>> waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically >>> referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon >>> be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. >>> >>> >>> >>> That seems a reasonable and defensible position. >>> >>> >>> >>> Geoffrey >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >>> Howard Resnick
>>> *Sent:* 08 June 2015 09:12 >>> *To:* Dominik Wujastyk >>> *Cc:* Indology List >>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding >>> indology at the IHRC >>> >>> >>> >>> "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology >>> with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research >>> project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. >>> >>> >>> >>> How racist? >>> >>> >>> >>> h.r. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Jesse Ross Knutson PhD >> Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific >> Languages and Literatures >> University of Hawai'i at M?noa >> 452A Spalding >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi > Director of Academics > Dean, Faculty of Vedantas > Karnakata Samskrita University, > Pampa Mahakavi Road, > Chamarajpet, Bengaluru. > > > ?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ? ?????? > ??????????????? > ?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????? ???????? > ??????????? (?.??.) > > http://www.ksu.ac.in > http://www.ksu.ac.in/en/dr-veeranarayana-n-k-pandurangi/ > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Sun Jun 14 01:29:22 2015 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 15 01:29:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <635945C6-EC6B-4CB5-B618-EFE8A6239C16@illinois.edu> Just a short note: an address like prof. Jesse is quite usual in India and does not indicate lack of politeness. I've been called dr. Hans or prof. Hans many times Cheers Hans Henrich Sent from my iPhone On Jun 13, 2015, at 18:32, George Thompson > wrote: Dear Prof. Pandurangi, Our good colleague, Prof. Whitaker, has appealed to us all to stop this discussion. And all of us have wisely done so, except for you. Why insult Prof. Knutson by referring to him as "Prof. Jesse"? Then you go on to compare Prof. Doniger to Hitler. The reason why we should avoid these sorts of highly emotional discussions is that they almost always degenerate into this kind of over-emotional rhetoric. If you want to argue that Vedic Sanskrit is 10,000 years, please feel free. But you have no viable evidence for this claim, since we have no evidence whatsoever for any writing system that is that old. Brief allusions have been made to the stark differences between urban IVC and nomadic pastoralist Vedic culture. In IVC lots of fish signs and unicorns. Both are completely absent in Vedic. In Vedic lots of references to horses and chariots. Both completely absent in IVC. [There's a lot more to say about how culturally different IVC is from Vedic [BTW]. If you want to talk about genetics, please do. To attack German scholars in particular is rather strange to me, since most European and Russian and American Indologists have the same views, as well most Asian Indologists and Latin American Indologists. I knew that this would happen, as did Prof. Whitaker. So I second his request, let us stop this fruitless argument. Best wishes George Thompson On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Veeranarayana Pandurangi > wrote: dear all here it seems many high scholars are truly concerned over future of India? I put the things steps by steps for analysing. and I submit my views. sorry for lengthy write up. 1. Sanskrit department in Delhi wants to prove that there was no Aryan invasion and Vedic texts date back to 8000 BC or something. 2. According to most experts there are no proofs to substantiate it as the economic times reporter puts it "But then the Sanskrit expert (Bharadvaj) [italics mine] makes some troublesome claims by asserting that the set of people referred to as Aryans by the European scholars were "indigenous" Sanskrit speakers whose texts date back to 8,000 BC. The professor makes these claims though he does not have any archaeological evidence or other such to back him in terms of historicity. Narrative sans Evidence Bhardwaj's narrative is another instance of identifying ancient India with a Sanskritic narrative and that too without evidence. The idea becomes a bit fuzzy considering that in recent times genetic studies have established and proved beyond doubt that there are tribal communities in India that are 65,000 years old. So even though he has not taken into account the evidence provided by genetic scientists about the antiquity of tribal communities in India, the Sanskrit professor and his team plan to compare available material on the Aryan theory in school textbooks with Sanskrit texts. The team will also make recommendations to the education ministry on correcting the distortions." http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-01-18/news/58200761_1_sanskrit-department-aryans-modern-india 3. it seems that Economic times reporter has too become an expert on Ancient India to declare that Bharadvaj is proof-less man. For more info on wide ranging expertise of this reporter "KP Narayana Kumar" see this link http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/etreporter/author-K-P-Narayana-Kumar,filterby-3.cms. God knows how he writes like this. 4. Dilip Chakravarti is worried By this act of Bharadvaj and puts the proposal was "racist and historically puerile" and he advises this dept. "The Sanskrit department of Delhi University would do a much better job training some palaeographers and epigraphists, who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country, without bothering about something as racist and historically puerile as Aryans," Chakrabarti said in an email to a query from The Telegraph." 5. again many scholars are worried about "racist and historically puerile" and start a discussion in this list. 6. one scholar (Dr.Jesse) puts it "This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo- European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic." (8.6.15) "I know that IVC seals have not been deciphered, but simply wished to point out that in all probability, in the opinion of most experts, they did not speak an Indo-European or Indo-Aryan language. The only people who believe otherwise are the true racists and chauvinists, the Hindutva morons who sadly are in a position of great power in your country today. (11.6.15). 7. Then the discussions turned on other issues as to whether IVC was dravidian or something else and other matters. 8. I want to raise objections to Dr.Jesse's derogatory wordings for Indians. Bharadvaj is merely proposing to re-examine the IVC/AIT theory propagated by western historians. it is clear from Telegraph report "We are trying to prove the chronology of the Sanskrit texts. By doing that, if the Aryan immigration theory is destroyed, that is an additional benefit," Bhardwaj argued. He said the mainstream history textbooks say that India's earliest civilisation came up in Harappa around 2800 BC and that the Aryans arrived from Central Asia around 1500 BC. "We question this theory by western historians," Bhardwaj said. "They claim the Vedic period dates back to between 1500 BC and 2000 BC. We have doubts. If we establish the chronology of the Sanskrit texts, things will be clear."" 9. is questioning anything is racial? I wonder why reputed scholars like Cardona Aklujkar and Deshpande etc in this forum are silent on this person's declaration. ? ?? ?????? ?? ? ????????? ??????. This is insult to academic freedom. 10. is Having doubts on anything racial? this statement shows the level of arrogance. 11. And Dr. Jesse advises Nagaraj Paturi "try to discern the intent of someone's comments, before you start using heated language, and calling people racists and chauvinists" while himself uses the words again all the scholars who think otherwise.(see his sentence quoted above in the mail 8.6.15). What is this? What authority he has to declare all of us racists? why supporters of free speech are silent? do they agree to the Idea of Dr.Jesse? This is serious offence on academic differences. I ask for apologies from Dr. Jesse. he should withdraw his statement. 12. Finally Dr. Jesse is directly accusing the Elected Prime Minister of India as moron, racist and chauvanist (since Mr.Modi is in power now) This is too big assault on the Whole of Indian people who have elected Modi. This is serious blunder. that would lead to unnecessary complications. 13. Dilip Chakrabarti's statement in the following link needs attention Speaking to ET, Chakrabarti said, "David Frawley is not an academic. Why should he be invited to deliver an academic lecture?" "It's a fact there is a long shadow of the Left on history writing in India. But we need to correct that through proper academic research. We cannot achieve that with the likes of Mr. Frawley." http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-03-27/news/60553899_1_ichr-y-sudershan-rao-history-wing. 14. what is wrong if Bhardvaj said "that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t?"? IVC was from the Undivided Bharat Mata itself. it is clear that Bharadvaj is not saying that all the good things elsewhere in the world originate from Bharat Mata. 15. it seems that some people here enjoy whenever a controversial/ derogatory news on Indian academics is published anywhere in the world. that would immediately come to discussion here. they are eager to share it with indology. this shows the mindset of people. it happened in the cases of Mein kemph and Hindus by Dr. Wendy Doniger. 16. I thank Howard Resnick for raising objections on "Racist" 17. I finally attach a paper written by Thangaraj on the genetics that disproves the influx of people into India. We need to discuss and sort out problems rather than creating them. sorry for lengthy mail and the problems it causes. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Jesse Knutson > wrote: I think Dilip Chakrabarty is actually thinking about racism from a totally different angle. What is racist is the notion that 'aryans'--the speakers of Old Indo-Aryan, or what have you--originated within the subcontinent, and that they predate and include the Indus Valley Civilization. Bharadvaj clearly wants to demonstrate that the composers of the Vedas were indigenous, and of an antiquity greater than the Indus Valley Civilization. This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Simon Brodbeck > wrote: Dear Howard, I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): A. adj. 1. a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, and sometimes Japhetic; by others restricted to the Asiatic portion of these. absol., the original Aryan or Arian language. b. spec. Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. 2. Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of Germany of non-Jewish extraction. B. n. 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. 2. spec. under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2). I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. But I can?t speak for him. All the best, Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Howard Resnick Sent: 08 June 2015 15:10 To: Geoffrey Samuel Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? Thanks, Howard On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel > wrote: If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. That seems a reasonable and defensible position. Geoffrey ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Howard Resnick
> Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12 To: Dominik Wujastyk Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. How racist? h.r. On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Director of Academics Dean, Faculty of Vedantas Karnakata Samskrita University, Pampa Mahakavi Road, Chamarajpet, Bengaluru. ?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ? ?????? ??????????????? ?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? (?.??.) http://www.ksu.ac.in http://www.ksu.ac.in/en/dr-veeranarayana-n-k-pandurangi/ https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 05:44:08 2015 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 15 01:44:08 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC Message-ID: Dear Hans, In his recent post to Indology, Prof. Pandurangi refers to three Western Indologists. One is referred to as 'Prof. Jesse.' Another is referred to as 'Dr Wendy Doniger.' And a third is referred to as 'Howard Resnick.' Then in passing he refers to three other Indologists as 'reputed scholars like Cardona, Aklujkar and Deshpande, etc.' Can you explain to me the complex sociological hierarchy of this system of reference? Do you think that there is no hierarchy here? Do you really think that in this context "Prof. Jesse" is respectful? George Thompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de Sun Jun 14 06:18:35 2015 From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 15 06:18:35 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A Concerned Citizen (of ancient India) In-Reply-To: <557B4198.4010204@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94BA3645C7@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de> As a confused senior citizen (no hierarchy intended!) I sometimes turn to John M. Ellis for guidance through an academic world that I find ever more difficult to make sense of. Although Ellis made his observations on German Studies in the U.S., they can be applied to other fields as well: "Adverse criticism, however unwelcome, is indispensable to the health of any intellectual enterprise; without it, weaknesses endure instead of being exposed and discarded. It is a necessary discipline." (John M. Ellis: Literature Lost - Social Agendas and the Corruption of the Humanities", New Haven & London : Yale UP 1997, p. 143.) But then, this may entail unpleasant question, they may even have to be asked repeatedly, scandals may come out from under the carpet, charlatans may be called charlatans, and their careers may be at stake. Do we really want that when it's so much more pleasant to sit in the sun, have a Bavarian beer together and call each other by our first names? So let the musak play! Cheers Reinhold ________________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von "Jarrod Whitaker [whitakjl at wfu.edu] Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juni 2015 22:31 An: indology at list.indology.info Betreff: [INDOLOGY] A Concerned Citizen (of ancient India) Dear Colleagues: I make here the first (public) appeal for a time-out on issues to do with Arya-identity, migration/invasion, IVC, and the dovetailed topic of Indology and its history. I am not downplaying the importance of these topics and the role they play (and need to play) in professional discussions. However, some of the responses are becoming interestingly acrimonious, ad hominem, and unprofessional. We are talking about real people, real lives and careers (of those who lived in the IVC, of those who spoke Indo-Arya languages several millennia ago, and of dead or alive Indologists or scholars of ancient India). While this is an appeal to emotion, I am sure we can all agree that we should exercise some (or complete) restraint when invoking (inter)personal histories and how these may or may not impact scholarly conclusions. In addition, when a scholar makes a simple charitable statement to the effect that we should read a book in full before drawing any conclusions, I would hope that posting information about sources that directly engage in the issues would be enough for listserve members. Put glibly, no one is going to win an argument in this forum....As we all know (but sometimes forget) this takes more space than a listserve and requires time and a process of consensus building via conferences, papers, books, and a self-reflexive willingness to change one's views in the face of logical argumentation and critical interpretation of evidence among a peer community. With warmest regards Jarrod Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. Associate Professor, Asian Religions Graduate Program Director Wake Forest University Department for the Study of Religions P.O. Box 7212 Winston-Salem, NC 27109 whitakjl at wfu.edu p 336.758.4162 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From oleg.bendz at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 09:05:56 2015 From: oleg.bendz at yahoo.com (Oleg Bendz) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 15 09:05:56 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Animation of the expansion of PIE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <996912316.2995837.1434272756693.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> 2015-06-14 Dear All: I love these animations. But here is a discussion of the Science article by Atkinson & Gray.Speakers: Martin Lewis and Asya Pereltsvaighttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHsy4xeuoQ Enjoy.? Thank you. Oleg Bendz On Friday, June 12, 2015 6:27 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: http://qz.com/425577/this-animated-map-shows-how-sanskrit-may-have-come-to-india/ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 10:23:27 2015 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 15 12:23:27 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The so-called German Indology Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks for the many responses on my enquiry about the applicability of historical critical methods in general and by Germans scholars in particular, from which I understood that many colleagues would subscribe to the following views: Although critical scholarship is necessary and methods may be refined, historical critical methods are indispensable. Bad scholarship must be bared. However, publishers and reviewers are responsible to reduce its spread to a minimum. Scholarly defamation and nationalistic discrimination (of which ?The Nay Science? is an example) are not acceptable. Besides this, one colleague argued that the book is a good teaching material, because it provides so many German text passages in translation. Well, I am not entirely convinced by this argument. With regard to ?The Nay Science? I would like to draw attention to the article by Hanneder from 2011 (!), posted to Indology by Prof. Slaje in response to my question, in which Hanneder argues in factual terms that already Adluri?s earlier research on German scholarship was flawed and formulated in an ethically objectionable rhetoric. Oxford University Press and their peer-reviewers could have been informed. However, OUP provided Bagchee a platform for presenting his research not only by publishing ?The Nay Science?, but also by depicting it as the state of the art of contemporary scholarship in their Oxford Bibliography on Hinduism, s.v. ?German Indology. ? I fully agree with Prof. Wujasty, who wrote in his response to my question that the matter ?deserves a more serious response, but I'm not interested personally.? For me, this is partly the case because as an owner of a German passport I might appear to some who are sympathetic with the theses of Adluri and Bagchee simply as a usual suspect (?Any defence can rhetorically be turned into a proof of the allegation? Hanneder, op.cit., p. 131). With best wishes, Philipp Maas -- Dr. Philipp A. Maas Universit?tsassistent Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Wien ?sterreich univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca Sun Jun 14 16:25:00 2015 From: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca (Brendan S. Gillon, Prof.) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 15 16:25:00 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I too have been referred to by acquaintances as Mr. Brendan or as Prof. Brendan. I am wondering if some sociolinguist among us can tell us more about this usage. My impression is that it is a way of simultaneously conveying familiarity and respect. It also seems to me that a similar practice was found among Europeans and Americans in the 19th century and earlier. Best wishes, Brendan Gillon Brendan S. Gillon email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca Department of Linguistics McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088 H3A 1A7 CANADA webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/ ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Hock, Hans Henrich [hhhock at illinois.edu] Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 9:29 PM To: George Thompson Cc: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC Just a short note: an address like prof. Jesse is quite usual in India and does not indicate lack of politeness. I've been called dr. Hans or prof. Hans many times Cheers Hans Henrich Sent from my iPhone On Jun 13, 2015, at 18:32, George Thompson > wrote: Dear Prof. Pandurangi, Our good colleague, Prof. Whitaker, has appealed to us all to stop this discussion. And all of us have wisely done so, except for you. Why insult Prof. Knutson by referring to him as "Prof. Jesse"? Then you go on to compare Prof. Doniger to Hitler. The reason why we should avoid these sorts of highly emotional discussions is that they almost always degenerate into this kind of over-emotional rhetoric. If you want to argue that Vedic Sanskrit is 10,000 years, please feel free. But you have no viable evidence for this claim, since we have no evidence whatsoever for any writing system that is that old. Brief allusions have been made to the stark differences between urban IVC and nomadic pastoralist Vedic culture. In IVC lots of fish signs and unicorns. Both are completely absent in Vedic. In Vedic lots of references to horses and chariots. Both completely absent in IVC. [There's a lot more to say about how culturally different IVC is from Vedic [BTW]. If you want to talk about genetics, please do. To attack German scholars in particular is rather strange to me, since most European and Russian and American Indologists have the same views, as well most Asian Indologists and Latin American Indologists. I knew that this would happen, as did Prof. Whitaker. So I second his request, let us stop this fruitless argument. Best wishes George Thompson On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Veeranarayana Pandurangi > wrote: dear all here it seems many high scholars are truly concerned over future of India? I put the things steps by steps for analysing. and I submit my views. sorry for lengthy write up. 1. Sanskrit department in Delhi wants to prove that there was no Aryan invasion and Vedic texts date back to 8000 BC or something. 2. According to most experts there are no proofs to substantiate it as the economic times reporter puts it "But then the Sanskrit expert (Bharadvaj) [italics mine] makes some troublesome claims by asserting that the set of people referred to as Aryans by the European scholars were "indigenous" Sanskrit speakers whose texts date back to 8,000 BC. The professor makes these claims though he does not have any archaeological evidence or other such to back him in terms of historicity. Narrative sans Evidence Bhardwaj's narrative is another instance of identifying ancient India with a Sanskritic narrative and that too without evidence. The idea becomes a bit fuzzy considering that in recent times genetic studies have established and proved beyond doubt that there are tribal communities in India that are 65,000 years old. So even though he has not taken into account the evidence provided by genetic scientists about the antiquity of tribal communities in India, the Sanskrit professor and his team plan to compare available material on the Aryan theory in school textbooks with Sanskrit texts. The team will also make recommendations to the education ministry on correcting the distortions." http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-01-18/news/58200761_1_sanskrit-department-aryans-modern-india 3. it seems that Economic times reporter has too become an expert on Ancient India to declare that Bharadvaj is proof-less man. For more info on wide ranging expertise of this reporter "KP Narayana Kumar" see this link http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/etreporter/author-K-P-Narayana-Kumar,filterby-3.cms. God knows how he writes like this. 4. Dilip Chakravarti is worried By this act of Bharadvaj and puts the proposal was "racist and historically puerile" and he advises this dept. "The Sanskrit department of Delhi University would do a much better job training some palaeographers and epigraphists, who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country, without bothering about something as racist and historically puerile as Aryans," Chakrabarti said in an email to a query from The Telegraph." 5. again many scholars are worried about "racist and historically puerile" and start a discussion in this list. 6. one scholar (Dr.Jesse) puts it "This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo- European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic." (8.6.15) "I know that IVC seals have not been deciphered, but simply wished to point out that in all probability, in the opinion of most experts, they did not speak an Indo-European or Indo-Aryan language. The only people who believe otherwise are the true racists and chauvinists, the Hindutva morons who sadly are in a position of great power in your country today. (11.6.15). 7. Then the discussions turned on other issues as to whether IVC was dravidian or something else and other matters. 8. I want to raise objections to Dr.Jesse's derogatory wordings for Indians. Bharadvaj is merely proposing to re-examine the IVC/AIT theory propagated by western historians. it is clear from Telegraph report "We are trying to prove the chronology of the Sanskrit texts. By doing that, if the Aryan immigration theory is destroyed, that is an additional benefit," Bhardwaj argued. He said the mainstream history textbooks say that India's earliest civilisation came up in Harappa around 2800 BC and that the Aryans arrived from Central Asia around 1500 BC. "We question this theory by western historians," Bhardwaj said. "They claim the Vedic period dates back to between 1500 BC and 2000 BC. We have doubts. If we establish the chronology of the Sanskrit texts, things will be clear."" 9. is questioning anything is racial? I wonder why reputed scholars like Cardona Aklujkar and Deshpande etc in this forum are silent on this person's declaration. ? ?? ?????? ?? ? ????????? ??????. This is insult to academic freedom. 10. is Having doubts on anything racial? this statement shows the level of arrogance. 11. And Dr. Jesse advises Nagaraj Paturi "try to discern the intent of someone's comments, before you start using heated language, and calling people racists and chauvinists" while himself uses the words again all the scholars who think otherwise.(see his sentence quoted above in the mail 8.6.15). What is this? What authority he has to declare all of us racists? why supporters of free speech are silent? do they agree to the Idea of Dr.Jesse? This is serious offence on academic differences. I ask for apologies from Dr. Jesse. he should withdraw his statement. 12. Finally Dr. Jesse is directly accusing the Elected Prime Minister of India as moron, racist and chauvanist (since Mr.Modi is in power now) This is too big assault on the Whole of Indian people who have elected Modi. This is serious blunder. that would lead to unnecessary complications. 13. Dilip Chakrabarti's statement in the following link needs attention Speaking to ET, Chakrabarti said, "David Frawley is not an academic. Why should he be invited to deliver an academic lecture?" "It's a fact there is a long shadow of the Left on history writing in India. But we need to correct that through proper academic research. We cannot achieve that with the likes of Mr. Frawley." http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-03-27/news/60553899_1_ichr-y-sudershan-rao-history-wing. 14. what is wrong if Bhardvaj said "that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t?"? IVC was from the Undivided Bharat Mata itself. it is clear that Bharadvaj is not saying that all the good things elsewhere in the world originate from Bharat Mata. 15. it seems that some people here enjoy whenever a controversial/ derogatory news on Indian academics is published anywhere in the world. that would immediately come to discussion here. they are eager to share it with indology. this shows the mindset of people. it happened in the cases of Mein kemph and Hindus by Dr. Wendy Doniger. 16. I thank Howard Resnick for raising objections on "Racist" 17. I finally attach a paper written by Thangaraj on the genetics that disproves the influx of people into India. We need to discuss and sort out problems rather than creating them. sorry for lengthy mail and the problems it causes. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Jesse Knutson > wrote: I think Dilip Chakrabarty is actually thinking about racism from a totally different angle. What is racist is the notion that 'aryans'--the speakers of Old Indo-Aryan, or what have you--originated within the subcontinent, and that they predate and include the Indus Valley Civilization. Bharadvaj clearly wants to demonstrate that the composers of the Vedas were indigenous, and of an antiquity greater than the Indus Valley Civilization. This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Simon Brodbeck > wrote: Dear Howard, I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): A. adj. 1. a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, and sometimes Japhetic; by others restricted to the Asiatic portion of these. absol., the original Aryan or Arian language. b. spec. Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. 2. Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of Germany of non-Jewish extraction. B. n. 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. 2. spec. under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2). I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. But I can?t speak for him. All the best, Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Howard Resnick Sent: 08 June 2015 15:10 To: Geoffrey Samuel Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? Thanks, Howard On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel > wrote: If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. That seems a reasonable and defensible position. Geoffrey ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Howard Resnick
> Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12 To: Dominik Wujastyk Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. How racist? h.r. On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Director of Academics Dean, Faculty of Vedantas Karnakata Samskrita University, Pampa Mahakavi Road, Chamarajpet, Bengaluru. ?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ? ?????? ??????????????? ?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? (?.??.) http://www.ksu.ac.in http://www.ksu.ac.in/en/dr-veeranarayana-n-k-pandurangi/ https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ambapradeep at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 19:01:48 2015 From: ambapradeep at gmail.com (Amba Kulkarni) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 00:31:48 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Amba Kulkarni Date: 15 June 2015 at 00:31 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name To: "Brendan S. Gillon, Prof." , Indology < INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk> Here are my 2 cents. I have noticed a difference in the North India and South India. (My exposure of North India is limited to Maharashtra, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh). One major difference between North India and South India is: typically in South India a person is referred by his/her first name, while in the North India s/he is referred by the surname. In North India only close friends and family members refer a person by his/her by given name. Whereas in South India everybody refers you by your first name. So in Hyderabad my students refer to me as Amba madam. It took me some time to get adjusted to this, since in Maharashtra I could never imagine my students calling me by my first name. They would always refer me by my surname. Similarly there is lot of confusion in the use of Mr. / Dr. / Prof etc. While communicating in regional languages preference is for ???????? / ??????? / ??????? in Maharashtra, and use of '??' as an honorific suffix in the North, ???? in the Andhra. Typically while translating into English, all these are mapped to Mr./Ms. Amba On 14 June 2015 at 21:55, Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I too have been referred to by acquaintances as Mr. Brendan or as Prof. > Brendan. I am wondering if some sociolinguist among us can tell us more > about this usage. My impression is that it is a way of simultaneously > conveying familiarity and respect. It also seems to me that a similar > practice was found among Europeans and Americans in the 19th century and > earlier. > > Best wishes, > > Brendan Gillon > > Brendan S. Gillon email: > brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca > Department of Linguistics > McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868 > 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield > Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088 > H3A 1A7 CANADA > > webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/ > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Hock, > Hans Henrich [hhhock at illinois.edu] > *Sent:* Saturday, June 13, 2015 9:29 PM > *To:* George Thompson > *Cc:* indology at list.indology.info > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology > at the IHRC > > Just a short note: an address like prof. Jesse is quite usual in India > and does not indicate lack of politeness. I've been called dr. Hans or > prof. Hans many times > > Cheers > > Hans Henrich > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 13, 2015, at 18:32, George Thompson wrote: > > Dear Prof. Pandurangi, > > Our good colleague, Prof. Whitaker, has appealed to us all to stop this > discussion. And all of us have wisely done so, except for you. Why insult > Prof. Knutson by referring to him as "Prof. Jesse"? Then you go on to > compare Prof. Doniger to Hitler. > > The reason why we should avoid these sorts of highly emotional > discussions is that they almost always degenerate into this kind of > over-emotional rhetoric. > > If you want to argue that Vedic Sanskrit is 10,000 years, please feel > free. But you have no viable evidence for this claim, since we have no > evidence whatsoever for any writing system that is that old. Brief > allusions have been made to the stark differences between urban IVC and > nomadic pastoralist Vedic culture. In IVC lots of fish signs and > unicorns. Both are completely absent in Vedic. In Vedic lots of references > to horses and chariots. Both completely absent in IVC. [There's a lot more > to say about how culturally different IVC is from Vedic [BTW]. If you want > to talk about genetics, please do. > > To attack German scholars in particular is rather strange to me, since > most European and Russian and American Indologists have the same views, as > well most Asian Indologists and Latin American Indologists. > > I knew that this would happen, as did Prof. Whitaker. So I second his > request, let us stop this fruitless argument. > > Best wishes > > George Thompson > > > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Veeranarayana Pandurangi < > veerankp at gmail.com> wrote: > >> dear all >> here it seems many high scholars are truly concerned over future of India? >> >> I put the things steps by steps for analysing. and I submit my views. >> sorry for lengthy write up. >> >> 1. Sanskrit department in Delhi wants to prove that there was no Aryan >> invasion and Vedic texts date back to 8000 BC or something. >> >> 2. According to most experts there are no proofs to substantiate it as >> the economic times reporter puts it >> >> "But then the Sanskrit expert *(Bharadvaj) [italics >> mine]* makes some troublesome claims by asserting that the set of people >> referred to as Aryans by the European scholars were >> "indigenous" Sanskrit speakers whose texts date back to 8,000 BC. The >> professor makes these claims though he does not have any archaeological >> evidence or other such to back him in terms of historicity. >> * Narrative sans Evidence* >> >> Bhardwaj's narrative is another instance of identifying >> ancient India with a Sanskritic narrative and that too without evidence. >> >> The idea becomes a bit fuzzy considering that in recent >> times genetic studies have established and proved beyond doubt that there >> are tribal communities in India that are 65,000 years >> old. >> * So even though he has not taken into account the evidence >> provided by genetic scientists about the antiquity of tribal communities in >> India,* the Sanskrit professor and his team plan to >> compare available material on the Aryan theory in school textbooks with >> Sanskrit texts. The team will also make recommendations to the education >> ministry on correcting the distortions." >> >> http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-01-18/news/58200761_1_sanskrit-department-aryans-modern-india >> >> >> 3. it seems that Economic times reporter has too become an expert on >> Ancient India to declare that Bharadvaj is proof-less man. For more info on >> wide ranging expertise of this reporter "KP Narayana Kumar" see this link >> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/etreporter/author-K-P-Narayana-Kumar,filterby-3.cms >> . >> God knows how he writes like this. >> >> 4. Dilip Chakravarti is worried By this act of Bharadvaj and puts the >> proposal was "racist and historically puerile" and he advises this dept. "The >> Sanskrit department of Delhi University would do a much better job training >> some palaeographers and epigraphists, who will soon be an extinct class of >> scholars in the country, without bothering about something as racist and >> historically puerile as Aryans," Chakrabarti said in an email to a query >> from *The Telegraph*." >> >> 5. again many scholars are worried about "racist and historically >> puerile" and start a discussion in this list. >> 6. one scholar (Dr.Jesse) puts it >> "This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural >> chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. >> Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley >> Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a >> highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which >> did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo- European language. *To >> attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is >> extremely racist and chauvinistic.**" (8.6.15)* >> >> "I know that IVC seals have not been deciphered, but >> simply wished to point out that in all probability, *in the opinion of >> most experts, they did not speak an Indo-European or >> Indo-Aryan language. The only people who believe otherwise are the true >> racists and chauvinists, the Hindutva morons who sadly are in a position of >> great power in your country today.* >> * (11.6.15).* >> >> *7. *Then the discussions turned on other issues as to whether IVC was >> dravidian or something else and other matters. >> >> 8. I want to raise objections to Dr.Jesse's derogatory wordings for >> Indians. Bharadvaj is merely proposing to re-examine the IVC/AIT theory >> propagated by western historians. it is clear from Telegraph report >> *"**We are trying to prove the chronology of the >> Sanskrit texts*. By doing that, if the Aryan immigration theory is >> destroyed, that is an additional benefit," Bhardwaj argued. >> >> He said the mainstream history textbooks say that >> India's earliest civilisation came up in Harappa around 2800 BC and that >> the Aryans arrived from Central Asia around 1500 BC. >> "*We question this theory by western historians*," >> Bhardwaj said. "They claim the Vedic period dates back to between 1500 BC >> and 2000 BC. *We have doubts.* If we establish the chronology of >> the Sanskrit texts, things will be clear."" >> >> 9. *is questioning anything is racial*? I wonder why reputed scholars >> like Cardona Aklujkar and Deshpande etc in this forum are silent on this >> person's declaration. ? ?? ?????? ?? ? ????????? ??????. This is insult to >> academic freedom. >> >> 10. *is Having doubts on anything racial*? this statement shows the >> level of arrogance. >> >> 11. And Dr. Jesse advises Nagaraj Paturi "*try to discern the intent of >> someone's comments, before you start using heated language, and calling >> people racists and chauvinists*" while himself uses the words again all >> the scholars who think otherwise.(see his sentence quoted above in the mail >> 8.6.15). >> >> *What is this? What authority he has to declare all of us racists? why >> supporters of free speech are silent? do they agree to the Idea of >> Dr.Jesse? This is serious offence on academic differences. I ask for >> apologies from Dr. Jesse. he should withdraw his statement.* >> >> *12. Finally Dr. Jesse is directly accusing the Elected Prime Minister >> of India as moron, racist and chauvanist (since Mr.Modi is in power now) * >> *This is too big assault on the Whole of Indian people who have elected >> Modi. This is serious blunder. that would lead to unnecessary >> complications. * >> >> 13. Dilip Chakrabarti's statement in the following link needs attention >> Speaking to ET, Chakrabarti said, "David Frawley is not an >> academic. Why should he be invited to deliver an academic lecture?" *"It's >> a fact there is a long shadow of the Left on history writing >> in India. But we need to correct that through proper academic research*. >> We cannot achieve that with the likes of Mr. Frawley." >> >> http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-03-27/news/60553899_1_ichr-y-sudershan-rao-history-wing >> >> . >> >> 14. *what is wrong if Bhardvaj said "**that anything good must >> originate in the womb of Bharata M?t?**"? *IVC was from the Undivided >> Bharat Mata itself. it is clear that Bharadvaj is not saying that all the >> good things elsewhere in the world originate from Bharat Mata. >> >> 15. * it seems that some people here enjoy whenever a controversial/ >> derogatory news on Indian academics is published anywhere in the world. >> that would immediately come to discussion here. they are eager to share it >> with indology. this shows the mindset of people. it happened in the cases >> of Mein kemph and Hindus by Dr. Wendy Doniger.* >> >> 16. I thank Howard Resnick for raising objections on "Racist" >> >> 17. I finally attach a paper written by Thangaraj on the genetics that >> disproves the influx of people into India. >> >> We need to discuss and sort out problems rather than creating them. >> >> sorry for lengthy mail and the problems it causes. >> >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Jesse Knutson >> wrote: >> >>> I think Dilip Chakrabarty is actually thinking about racism from a >>> totally different angle. What is racist is the notion that 'aryans'--the >>> speakers of Old Indo-Aryan, or what have you--originated within the >>> subcontinent, and that they predate and include the Indus Valley >>> Civilization. Bharadvaj clearly wants to demonstrate that the composers of >>> the Vedas were indigenous, and of an antiquity greater than the Indus >>> Valley Civilization. This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural >>> chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata M?t? 2. >>> Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the >>> Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of >>> greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or >>> Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the >>> speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic. >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Simon Brodbeck >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Howard, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a >>>> semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word >>>> Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as ?noble? or >>>> something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as >>>> ?Aryan?. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (?arya? has no entry): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *A.* adj. >>>> >>>> *1.* >>>> >>>> a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, >>>> which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and >>>> Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called >>>> *Indo-European*, *Indo-Germanic*, and sometimes *Japhetic*; by others >>>> restricted to the Asiatic portion of these. *absol.*, the original >>>> Aryan or Arian language. >>>> >>>> b. *spec.* Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people. >>>> >>>> *2.* Under the Nazi r?gime (1933?45) applied to the inhabitants of >>>> Germany of non-Jewish extraction. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *B.* n. >>>> >>>> 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, >>>> the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language. >>>> >>>> *2.* *spec.* under the Nazi r?gime (cf. sense A. 2 >>>> >>>> ). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and >>>> B1. But I can?t speak for him. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> All the best, >>>> >>>> Simon Brodbeck >>>> >>>> Cardiff University >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *On >>>> Behalf Of *Howard Resnick >>>> *Sent:* 08 June 2015 15:10 >>>> *To:* Geoffrey Samuel >>>> *Cc:* Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List >>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding >>>> indology at the IHRC >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj >>>> states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj >>>> does not state that he takes ?Aryan? as a racial, rather than a cultural, >>>> term. So please help me here. Where is the racism? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Howard >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph >>>> article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was >>>> 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a >>>> waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically >>>> referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon >>>> be an extinct class of scholars in the country'. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That seems a reasonable and defensible position. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Geoffrey >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >>>> Howard Resnick
>>>> *Sent:* 08 June 2015 09:12 >>>> *To:* Dominik Wujastyk >>>> *Cc:* Indology List >>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding >>>> indology at the IHRC >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology >>>> with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research >>>> project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile?. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> How racist? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> h.r. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>>> >>>> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>>> >>>> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Jesse Ross Knutson PhD >>> Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific >>> Languages and Literatures >>> University of Hawai'i at M?noa >>> 452A Spalding >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>> >>> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi >> Director of Academics >> Dean, Faculty of Vedantas >> Karnakata Samskrita University, >> Pampa Mahakavi Road, >> Chamarajpet, Bengaluru. >> >> >> ?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ? ?????? >> ??????????????? >> ?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????? >> ???????? ??????????? (?.??.) >> >> http://www.ksu.ac.in >> >> http://www.ksu.ac.in/en/dr-veeranarayana-n-k-pandurangi/ >> >> https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- ? ?? ?????: ?????? ????? ??????: ll Let noble thoughts come to us from every side. - Rig Veda, I-89-i. Assoc Prof. Department of Sanskrit Studies University of Hyderabad Prof. C.R. Rao Road Hyderabad-500 046 (91) 040 23133802(off) http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/scl http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/faculty/amba -- ? ?? ?????: ?????? ????? ??????: ll Let noble thoughts come to us from every side. - Rig Veda, I-89-i. Assoc Prof. Department of Sanskrit Studies University of Hyderabad Prof. C.R. Rao Road Hyderabad-500 046 (91) 040 23133802(off) http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/scl http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/faculty/amba -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Sun Jun 14 21:38:32 2015 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 03:08:32 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yet I still think it's correct to call Hindutva and Bharavaj's project racist, albeit implicitly and convolutedly so, because there is an implicit judgment of racial superiority. And chauvinism/triumphalism rarely come in some kind of pure form, free of a racist sediment. Explicit racism is highly tolerated in right-wing political/academic circles in India today as you all know. It might be a more confusing type of racism for us to disentangle because it is not as black and white, involving complex judgments about people's origins via caste, language, and way of life etc. But racism is very real both in life and "scholarship". On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dean Michael Anderson > To: "Hock, Hans Henrich" , Matthew Kapstein < > mkapstei at uchicago.edu>, George Thompson > Cc: Indology List > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 08:22:37 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at > the IHRC > I agree with Hans Hock, George Thompson and others that we can't say for > certain what the language of the IVC was, and that it was mostly likely > multilingual. And, I would add multicultural, since it was at the > intersection of several different cultures: Coastal Indian, Doab Indian, > Central Indian, Himalayan, Iranian, and Central Asian, not to mention the > evidence for oceanic trade with Mesopotamia. > > I am not saying that there were definitely large numbers of Indo-Iranians > in the Harappan Civlization but, according to mainstream Indo-European > scholars, they were not that far away in Central Asia, and the Harappans > did have overland trade with and through those regions. So the existence of > Indo-Iranian communities among the Harappans is not at all unreasonable. I > believe Asko Parpola proposed as much; and perhaps Madhav Deshpande, > although I don't have their publications at hand. Perhaps they could > comment. > > On another topic, the reason scholars reject the Hindutva-inspired > theories is not because of their politics but because of generally poor > quality of their scholarship. This is as it should be. I'm glad to see that > accusations of racism and nationalism have not gained traction in this > discussion because such inflammatory terms only serve to distract us from > the real scholarly issues pertaining to ancient India. > > This is not, of course, to declare that the study of the effect of modern > racist or nationalist ideologies on Indology should be off-limits. But they > are two different, yet often conflated, topics that should be kept separate. > > Best, > > Dean Anderson > East West Cultural Institute > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "Hock, Hans Henrich" > *To:* Matthew Kapstein > *Cc:* Indology List > *Sent:* Friday, June 12, 2015 7:36 AM > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology > at the IHRC > > Dear Matthew and George, > > I agree with both of your comments. To avoid raising too many red flags, > I confined my comments to the issue of the decipherment (or not) of the > Indus symbols. There clearly are great cultural differences between the > Indus Civilization and the Vedic one, including the great role of the > unicorn in the IC and its absence in (early) Vedic. > > Best wishes, > > Hans Henrich > > > > > On 11 Jun 2015, at 14:53, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > > Dear everyone, > > I would suggest that all be more restrained in the use of the term > "racist," the connotations of which > generally suggest that the person so characterized attributes > constitutional inferiority, or ritual pollution, > or moral degradation, or animality, etc., to certain classes of persons on > account of their "race," a term > whose precise significance is deeply problematic. Chauvanism is not the > same thing, nor is triumphalism, though > these also involve judgments of human inequality. > > The Aryan topos frequently is imbricated with racism, but it is not > necessarily so. More damning, in my view, > have been the reckless, unscientific confusions of historical linguistics, > cultural history, mythology, > genetics, archeology, nationalism, etc., that characterize many of the > recent discussions. These are not by any > means to be mixed indiscriminately. > > Best in my view to be cautious in one's methodology and prudent in one's > vocabulary. > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sun Jun 14 22:31:07 2015 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 15 22:31:07 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf request Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0375172AC@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Might any of you kind colleagues happen to have a scanned copy of A K Chatterjee's Readings on Yog?c?ra Buddhism? with thanks in advance, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________________ From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Mon Jun 15 04:11:17 2015 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 04:11:17 +0000 Subject: "Pots don't speak", nor do they vote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1264002182.2863492.1434341477363.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Ihave created this new thread because I will acquiesce to the wishesof those who don't wish to talk more about the IVC. There is,however, a broader methodological issue that I feel needs to beaddressed.MichaelWitzel is fond of quoting his teacher "pots don't speak".And, I would add: they don't have a race either.Themain point of which I wish to remind people is well-stated byStephanie Jamison, Professor of Indo-Iranian Literature, UCLA;translator of Rig Veda (along with Joel Brereton):"Forwe must not confuse movements of languages with movements of peoples.Languages can spread to new territories in a number of ways, only oneof which is through the migration (or "invasion") of peoplewho speak the language."Aswith languages, so with cultures: they don't have a race. The samecan be said of academic research: the theorists may be racists butthe objects of study are not (languages, cultures, pots) . Numerousscholars on this list, like Hans Hock, have pointed out quiteconvincingly the shortcomings of the Out of India theories. Anycompeting theories will have to address those issues, which has notbeen done; but they should have the freedom to try. As I mentionedbefore, the study of the effect of ideology on objective research isa different topic altogether; and a valid one. They should not beconflated.Tobrand a particular field of objective academic research off-limits bydeclaring it racist or chauvinist is not only making this mistake, itis also quite troubling from the viewpoint of academic freedom. Best,DeanAnderson----Jamison, Stephanie.2006. ?Bryant, Edward F. & Laurie L. Patton, Eds., TheIndo-Aryan Controversy: Evidence and Inference in Indian History(2005). Reviewed by Jamison, Stephanie W.? Journalof Indo-European Studies34: 255ff. Can be downloaded at:http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/Bryant_Patton.review.pdf From: Jesse Knutson To: Dean Michael Anderson Cc: "Hock, Hans Henrich" ; Matthew Kapstein ; George Thompson ; Indology List Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 3:08 AM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC Yet I still think it's correct to call Hindutva and Bharavaj's project racist, albeit implicitly and convolutedly so, because there is an implicit judgment of racial superiority. And chauvinism/triumphalism rarely come in some kind of pure form, free of a racist sediment. Explicit racism is highly tolerated in right-wing political/academic circles in India today as you all know. It might be a more confusing type of racism for us to disentangle because it is not as black and white, involving complex judgments about people's origins via caste, language, and way of life etc.? But racism is very real both in life and "scholarship".? -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and LiteraturesUniversity of Hawai'i at?M?noa 452A Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Mon Jun 15 05:43:15 2015 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 05:43:15 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf request In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0375172AC@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037517303@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Thanks to Vincent Eltschinger for the requested scan and to others who replied with kind offers to help. As always, the Indologists are there when you need them! Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________________ From jknutson at hawaii.edu Mon Jun 15 06:18:11 2015 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 11:48:11 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] "Pots don't speak", nor do they vote In-Reply-To: <1264002182.2863492.1434341477363.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I disagree. A project can be as racist as a person. I agree however that the battle should be fought on scholarly grounds, yet it is important to maintain a critical awareness that scholarship is not neutral and always maintains political implications. This should be obvious today from the work of (whatever their limitations) Edward Said, Pierre Bourdieu, etc., who conducted thoroughgoing critiques of the notion of neutrality and disinterestedness in scholarship. To identify a thought process or intellectual project as racist does not necessarily imply that it should be censored. Again it is best combatted on the scholarly-intellectual ground where it is launched. Rather it is about cultivating a critical awareness and perspective, with which empirical research can become less meaningful. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 9:41 AM, Dean Michael Anderson < eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote: > I have created this new thread because I will acquiesce to the wishes of > those who don't wish to talk more about the IVC. There is, however, a > broader methodological issue that I feel needs to be addressed. > Michael Witzel is fond of quoting his teacher "pots don't speak". And, I > would add: they don't have a race either. > The main point of which I wish to remind people is well-stated by > Stephanie Jamison, Professor of Indo-Iranian Literature, UCLA; translator > of Rig Veda (along with Joel Brereton): > "For we must not confuse movements of languages with movements of peoples. > Languages can spread to new territories in a number of ways, only one of > which is through the migration (or "invasion") of people who speak the > language." > As with languages, so with cultures: they don't have a race. The same can > be said of academic research: the theorists may be racists but the objects > of study are not (languages, cultures, pots) . > Numerous scholars on this list, like Hans Hock, have pointed out quite > convincingly the shortcomings of the Out of India theories. Any competing > theories will have to address those issues, which has not been done; but > they should have the freedom to try. As I mentioned before, the study of > the effect of ideology on objective research is a different topic > altogether; and a valid one. They should not be conflated. > To brand a particular field of objective academic research off-limits by > declaring it racist or chauvinist is not only making this mistake, it is > also quite troubling from the viewpoint of academic freedom. > Best, > Dean Anderson > ---- > Jamison, Stephanie. 2006. ?Bryant, Edward F. & Laurie L. Patton, Eds., > The Indo-Aryan Controversy: Evidence and Inference in Indian History > (2005). Reviewed by Jamison, Stephanie W.? *Journal of Indo-European > Studies* 34: 255ff. Can be downloaded at: > http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/Bryant_Patton.review.pdf > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jesse Knutson > *To:* Dean Michael Anderson > *Cc:* "Hock, Hans Henrich" ; Matthew Kapstein < > mkapstei at uchicago.edu>; George Thompson ; Indology > List > *Sent:* Monday, June 15, 2015 3:08 AM > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology > at the IHRC > > Yet I still think it's correct to call Hindutva and Bharavaj's project > racist, albeit implicitly and convolutedly so, because there is an implicit > judgment of racial superiority. And chauvinism/triumphalism rarely come in > some kind of pure form, free of a racist sediment. Explicit racism is > highly tolerated in right-wing political/academic circles in India today as > you all know. It might be a more confusing type of racism for us to > disentangle because it is not as black and white, involving complex > judgments about people's origins via caste, language, and way of life etc. > But racism is very real both in life and "scholarship". > > -- > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific > Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 452A Spalding > > > -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anurupa.n at ifpindia.org Mon Jun 15 06:26:07 2015 From: anurupa.n at ifpindia.org (Anurupa Naik) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 11:56:07 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Another_new_title_jointly_published_by_the_Institut_Fran=C3=A7ais_de_Pondich=C3=A9ry/Ecole_fran=C3=A7aise_d'Extr=C3=AAme-Orient/Asien-Afrika-Institut,_Universit=C3=A4t_Hamburg?= In-Reply-To: <557E646F.4000807@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: <557E6FFF.9010007@ifpindia.org> *JUST RELEASED* *The Brahmay?malatantra or Picumata. Volume II. The Religious Observances and Sexual Rituals of the Tantric Practitioner: Chapters 3, 21, and 45.* A Critical Edition and Annotated Translation by *Csaba Kiss*, Collection Indologie n? 130; Early Tantra Series n? 3, Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry / Ecole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient / Asien-Afrika-Institut, Universit?t Hamburg, 373 p. Language: Sanskrit, English. *750 Rs (32 *?*). *ISBN: 978-81-8470-207-1 (IFP) / 978-2-85539-153-3 (EFEO). The /Brahmay?malatantra/ (aka /Picumata/) is probably one of the earliest surviving ?aiva tantras, and possibly the earliest one known to us of the Bhairavatantra tradition. The present volume contains a critical edition and annotated translation of three of its chapters: one on the central /ma??ala/ of the cult, one on preliminary religious observances (/vrata/) prescribed for all practitioners (/s?dhaka/), and one on instructions for each individual category of /s?dhaka/ ? instructions on transgressive sexual rituals for the T?laka, on strict rules of conduct for the chaste Carubhojin, and on a combination of these for the Mixed Practitioner. This unique system of /s?dhaka/s marks an early phase in the development of classification of practitioners seeking liberation and magical powers, and gives us an insight into the tantric world of extremes: of rule-bound sexual encounters involving several female partners and highly impure substances on the one hand, and of asceticism, strict vegetarianism and chastity on the other. The introduction deals with the main topics raised by the selected chapters, as well as with problems of the sometimes extremely non-standard (Ai?a) Sanskrit that the oldest manuscript transmits. One of the appendices provides a summary of the first twenty-five chapters (about one quarter of the /Brahmay?mala/) to facilitate further study. The extensive index includes all important keywords and all major Ai?a phenomena. *Keywords:*Mantram?rga, ?aivism, Bhairavatantras, Early Tantra, Transgressive Sexual Rituals ** *About the Editor* After studies in Budapest, *Csaba Kiss *obtained his doctorate from Oxford University for his edition of selected chapters of the /Matsyendrasa?hit?/, a thirteenth-century ?aiva tantric text on yoga. He joined the Early Tantra Project in 2008 to produce this volume, and is currently research assistant at ELTE University, Budapest, working on texts of the tantric Kubjik? tradition and of the /j?tiviveka/ genre. *To order, contact:* ** Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry P. B. 33, 11, St. Louis Street, Pondicherry-605001, INDIA Ph: +91-413-2231660 / 661. Fax: +91 413-2231605 E-mail: library at ifpindia.org Ecole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient P.O. Box 151,16 & 19, Dumas Street Pondicherry - 605001,INDIA Ph: +91-413-2334539. Fax +91-413-2330886 E-mail: shanti at efeo-pondicherry.org -- Ms. Anurupa Naik Head, Library and Publication Division French Institute of Pondicherry (IFP) UMIFRE 21 CNRS-MAEE P.B. 33 11, St. Louis Street Pondicherry-605 001, INDIA Tel: 91-413-2231660 Fax: 91-413-2231605 e-mail:anurupa.n at ifpindia.org website:www.ifpindia.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 08:30:39 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 10:30:39 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am often called "Dr Dominik" by my colleagues in India, and I find it simultaneously affectionate and formal, in a rather unique way. I really like it. I think most of us understand that this is a charming form of address, in itself. What George Thompson pointed out is that the post by Nagaraj Paturi used a series of different forms of address that appeared to express gradations in his judgements about the different people he was naming, from formal=respected to informal=not so much. Best, Dr Dominik ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 08:42:14 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 10:42:14 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ?I know that we all know this, but I want to just get it on the table explicitly. There is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and typological conceptualizations of race are untenable?. All humans are, biologically speaking, a single race. We are using the words "race" and "racist" as if they meant something. But this is not the appropriate language to use in a methodologically sound contemporary discussion about ethnicity or community. The nearest term I can think of to what we mean is "nation" and "nationalist". This seems an uncontroversial way of expressing the difference between, say, Moroccans and Icelanders, or Germans and Indians. As Philipp said, it's a matter of passports. In most places in the world, including the Americas, Europe and India, there has been so much movement of populations, accompanied by cultural and linguistic entanglement over many centuries, that it is impossible to be essentialist even about the national groupings, as has often been pointed out. What is absolutely certain is that none of these groupings, cultural, linguistic or national, has anything to do with race. Best, Dr Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Mon Jun 15 09:05:49 2015 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 09:05:49 +0000 Subject: Fw: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: <1377804099.2943738.1434358725326.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <885107487.2928912.1434359149691.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Dominik Wujastyk said: >We are using the words "race" and "racist" as if they meant something.? >But this is not the appropriate language to use in a methodologically sound >contemporary discussion about ethnicity or community. Thank you for pointing this out. I was going to mention it but was afraid my post was getting too long. Outmoded ideas of race have created no end of trouble in our discipline, not to mention the world at large. This is perhaps fitting since many of the men responsible for the mistaken concept were our academic forebears. Thus, we should be among the leaders in correcting people's understanding. Of course, at the same time we should be active in addressing the real issues this imaginary concept has created. Just because the snake turned out to be a rope doesn't mean the broken leg caused in the ensuing panic is illusory. Best, Dr. Dean or is it Professor Anderson? I can never predict. From: Dominik Wujastyk To: Indology List Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC ?I know that we all know this, but I want to just get it on the table explicitly.? There is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and typological conceptualizations of race are untenable?.? All humans are, biologically speaking, a single race.? We are using the words "race" and "racist" as if they meant something.? But this is not the appropriate language to use in a methodologically sound contemporary discussion about ethnicity or community.? The nearest term I can think of to what we mean is "nation" and "nationalist".? This seems an uncontroversial way of expressing the difference between, say, Moroccans and Icelanders, or Germans and Indians.? As Philipp said, it's a matter of passports.? In most places in the world, including the Americas, Europe and India, there has been so much movement of populations, accompanied by cultural and linguistic entanglement over many centuries, that it is impossible to be essentialist even about the national groupings, as has often been pointed out.? What is absolutely certain is that none of these groupings, cultural, linguistic or national, has anything to do with race. Best, Dr Dominik _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 09:07:01 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 14:37:01 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC Message-ID: Civilizational cultures are superior to/ achievements over non-civilizational/ pastoral is evolutionist. Evolutionism has racist underpinnings. Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skarashima at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 09:07:08 2015 From: skarashima at gmail.com (Seishi Karashima) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 18:07:08 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of The St. Petersburg Sanskrit Fragments (StPSF), vol. 1 Message-ID: Dear colleagues: We are happy to announce that a PDF file of the first volume of *The St. Petersburg Sanskrit Fragments* (StPSF), ed. by Seishi Karashima and Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya, Tokyo 2015: The Institute of Oriental Manuscripts of the Russian Academy of Sciences (= IOM RAS) and The International Research Institute for Advanced Buddhology (= IRIAB), Soka University, 545 pages + 123 plates, ISBN978-4-904234-11-2, is now available on the following websites: http://orientalstudies.ru/eng/index.php?option=com_publications&Itemid=75&pub=1501 http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/StPSF/index_StPSF.html *Table of contents* Foreword by Irina F. Popova vii Preface by Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya ix The *??rd?lakar??vad?na* from Central Asia by Tensho Miyazaki, Jundo Nagashima, Tatsushi Tamai and Zhou Liqun 1 The *Ajitasenavy?kara?a* Manuscripts from Central Asia and Gilgit by Jiro Hirabayashi, William B. Rasmussen and Safarali Shomakhmadov 85 The *Avad?na* Anthology from Merv, Turkmenistan by Seishi Karashima and Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya 145 The *Mah?parinirv??a-mah?s?tra* Fragments in the Petrovsky Collection (1) by Hiromi Habata 525 Postscript by Seishi Karashima 543 Plates 1~123 Seishi Karashima IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From franco at uni-leipzig.de Mon Jun 15 09:12:33 2015 From: franco at uni-leipzig.de (Eli Franco) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 11:12:33 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of The St. Petersburg Sanskrit Fragments (StPSF), vol. 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20150615111233.Horde.eLDlOLvVk5CrXv9WLk0Jmg9@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Thank you. I am relieved. Must buy a washing machine. See you later, love, E. Zitat von Seishi Karashima : > Dear colleagues: > > We are happy to announce that a PDF file of the first volume of *The St. > Petersburg Sanskrit Fragments* (StPSF), ed. by Seishi Karashima and > Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya, Tokyo 2015: The Institute of Oriental > Manuscripts of the Russian Academy of Sciences (= IOM RAS) and The > International Research Institute for Advanced Buddhology (= IRIAB), Soka > University, 545 pages + 123 plates, ISBN978-4-904234-11-2, is now available > on the following websites: > > > http://orientalstudies.ru/eng/index.php?option=com_publications&Itemid=75&pub=1501 > > http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/StPSF/index_StPSF.html > > > *Table of contents* > > Foreword by Irina F. Popova vii > > Preface by Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya ix > > The *??rd?lakar??vad?na* from Central Asia by Tensho Miyazaki, Jundo > Nagashima, Tatsushi Tamai and Zhou Liqun 1 > > The *Ajitasenavy?kara?a* Manuscripts from Central Asia and Gilgit by Jiro > Hirabayashi, William B. Rasmussen and Safarali Shomakhmadov 85 > > The *Avad?na* Anthology from Merv, Turkmenistan by Seishi Karashima and > Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya 145 > > The *Mah?parinirv??a-mah?s?tra* Fragments in the Petrovsky Collection (1) > by Hiromi Habata 525 > > Postscript by Seishi Karashima 543 > > Plates 1~123 > > > Seishi Karashima > > IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo -- Prof. Dr. Eli Franco Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Schillerstr. 6 04109 Leipzig Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office) Fax +49 341 9737 148 From kauzeya at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 09:14:53 2015 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 11:14:53 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of The St. Petersburg Sanskrit Fragments (StPSF), vol. 1 In-Reply-To: <20150615111233.Horde.eLDlOLvVk5CrXv9WLk0Jmg9@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: I began to wonder about the connection between the Ajitasenavy?kara?a and a washing machine ... until I realized that Eli must have missent his message. But I'm delighted in the hermeneutical puzzle this will present to future philologists (yes, I used this expression on purpose ;) jonathan On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:12 AM, Eli Franco wrote: > > Thank you. I am relieved. Must buy a washing machine. See you later, love, > E. > > Zitat von Seishi Karashima : > > Dear colleagues: >> >> We are happy to announce that a PDF file of the first volume of *The St. >> Petersburg Sanskrit Fragments* (StPSF), ed. by Seishi Karashima and >> Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya, Tokyo 2015: The Institute of >> Oriental >> Manuscripts of the Russian Academy of Sciences (= IOM RAS) and The >> International Research Institute for Advanced Buddhology (= IRIAB), Soka >> University, 545 pages + 123 plates, ISBN978-4-904234-11-2, is now >> available >> on the following websites: >> >> >> >> http://orientalstudies.ru/eng/index.php?option=com_publications&Itemid=75&pub=1501 >> >> http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/StPSF/index_StPSF.html >> >> >> *Table of contents* >> >> Foreword by Irina F. Popova vii >> >> Preface by Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya ix >> >> The *??rd?lakar??vad?na* from Central Asia by Tensho Miyazaki, Jundo >> Nagashima, Tatsushi Tamai and Zhou Liqun 1 >> >> The *Ajitasenavy?kara?a* Manuscripts from Central Asia and Gilgit by Jiro >> Hirabayashi, William B. Rasmussen and Safarali Shomakhmadov 85 >> >> The *Avad?na* Anthology from Merv, Turkmenistan by Seishi Karashima and >> Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya 145 >> >> The *Mah?parinirv??a-mah?s?tra* Fragments in the Petrovsky Collection (1) >> by Hiromi Habata 525 >> >> Postscript by Seishi Karashima 543 >> >> Plates 1~123 >> >> >> Seishi Karashima >> >> IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo >> > > > -- > Prof. Dr. Eli Franco > Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften > Schillerstr. 6 > 04109 Leipzig > > Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office) > Fax +49 341 9737 148 > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 09:35:10 2015 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 11:35:10 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_representation_and_misrepresentation:_the_case_of_A.L._de_Ch=C3=A9zy_(1773-1815)?= Message-ID: For those interested in an attempt to evaluate A:L. de Ch?zy in his own context of "Oriental Renaissance" (irrespective of whether or not we at present feel inspired by this short lived European enthousiasm for India) I have attached an abstract of my presentation at the Ch?zy colloque. It's in French, and to facilitate cross-linguistic and cross-cultural communication: the samgraha is in Sanskrit. I do not know whether the list will accept and redistribute this attachment but in due course I will also upload it on my academia.edu page. jan houben *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Houben2015-ColloqueChezyresumeplussamgrahah.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 860037 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Mon Jun 15 10:05:20 2015 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 15:35:20 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Article about the politics surrounding Indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Understood. From a scientific point of view race does not exist. This has been evident for some time. Yet even if race is a fiction and a purely cultural construct, it does not liquidate the discussion of racism. Racism, even if based on totally erroneous perceptions (and a long history of them), does not cease to exist. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dean Michael Anderson > To: Indology List > Cc: > Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 09:05:49 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Fw: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology at > the IHRC > > Dominik Wujastyk said: > > >We are using the words "race" and "racist" as if they meant something. > >But this is not the appropriate language to use in a methodologically > sound > >contemporary discussion about ethnicity or community. > > Thank you for pointing this out. I was going to mention it but was afraid > my post was getting too long. > > Outmoded ideas of race have created no end of trouble in our discipline, > not to mention the world at large. This is perhaps fitting since many of > the men responsible for the mistaken concept were our academic forebears. > Thus, we should be among the leaders in correcting people's understanding. > > Of course, at the same time we should be active in addressing the real > issues this imaginary concept has created. Just because the snake turned > out to be a rope doesn't mean the broken leg caused in the ensuing panic is > illusory. > > Best, > > Dr. Dean or is it Professor Anderson? I can never predict. > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Dominik Wujastyk > *To:* Indology List > *Sent:* Monday, June 15, 2015 2:12 PM > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding Indology > at the IHRC > > ?I know that we all know this, but I want to just get it on the table > explicitly. There is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and > typological conceptualizations of race are untenable?. All humans are, > biologically speaking, a single race. > > We are using the words "race" and "racist" as if they meant something. > But this is not the appropriate language to use in a methodologically sound > contemporary discussion about ethnicity or community. The nearest term I > can think of to what we mean is "nation" and "nationalist". This seems an > uncontroversial way of expressing the difference between, say, Moroccans > and Icelanders, or Germans and Indians. As Philipp said, it's a matter of > passports. In most places in the world, including the Americas, Europe and > India, there has been so much movement of populations, accompanied by > cultural and linguistic entanglement over many centuries, that it is > impossible to be essentialist even about the national groupings, as has > often been pointed out. What is absolutely certain is that none of these > groupings, cultural, linguistic or national, has anything to do with race. > > > > > Best, > > Dr Dominik > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > > -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 452A Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 11:05:31 2015 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 07:05:31 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Civilizational" is a word that is not a part of my personal lexicon. I pointed out the IVC was urban whereas Vedic was pastoral/nomadic. I expressed no evolutionist/racist views. George By the way, I am half Euro and half Siberian, and I know well what it is like to be a victim off racism. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 5:07 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Civilizational cultures are superior to/ achievements > over non-civilizational/ pastoral is evolutionist. Evolutionism has racist > underpinnings. > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad-500044 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 14:15:46 2015 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 08:15:46 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of The St. Petersburg Sanskrit Fragments (StPSF), vol. 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Regarding this hermeneutical puzzle: I thought Eli's message was a veiled reference to the famous TED Talk by Hans Rosling, "The Magic Washing Machine": http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_and_the_magic_washing_machine?language=en We cannot be sure, however, that the Ajitasenavy?kara?a was one of the books that Hans pulled out of the washing machine at the end. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 3:14 AM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > I began to wonder about the connection between the Ajitasenavy?kara?a and > a washing machine ... until I realized that Eli must have missent his > message. > But I'm delighted in the hermeneutical puzzle this will present to future > philologists (yes, I used this expression on purpose ;) > > jonathan > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:12 AM, Eli Franco > wrote: > >> >> Thank you. I am relieved. Must buy a washing machine. See you later, >> love, E. >> >> Zitat von Seishi Karashima : >> >> Dear colleagues: >>> >>> We are happy to announce that a PDF file of the first volume of *The St. >>> Petersburg Sanskrit Fragments* (StPSF), ed. by Seishi Karashima and >>> Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya, Tokyo 2015: The Institute of >>> Oriental >>> Manuscripts of the Russian Academy of Sciences (= IOM RAS) and The >>> International Research Institute for Advanced Buddhology (= IRIAB), Soka >>> University, 545 pages + 123 plates, ISBN978-4-904234-11-2, is now >>> available >>> on the following websites: >>> >>> >>> >>> http://orientalstudies.ru/eng/index.php?option=com_publications&Itemid=75&pub=1501 >>> >>> http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/StPSF/index_StPSF.html >>> >>> >>> *Table of contents* >>> >>> Foreword by Irina F. Popova vii >>> >>> Preface by Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya ix >>> >>> The *??rd?lakar??vad?na* from Central Asia by Tensho Miyazaki, Jundo >>> Nagashima, Tatsushi Tamai and Zhou Liqun 1 >>> >>> The *Ajitasenavy?kara?a* Manuscripts from Central Asia and Gilgit by Jiro >>> Hirabayashi, William B. Rasmussen and Safarali Shomakhmadov 85 >>> >>> The *Avad?na* Anthology from Merv, Turkmenistan by Seishi Karashima and >>> Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya 145 >>> >>> The *Mah?parinirv??a-mah?s?tra* Fragments in the Petrovsky Collection (1) >>> by Hiromi Habata 525 >>> >>> Postscript by Seishi Karashima 543 >>> >>> Plates 1~123 >>> >>> >>> Seishi Karashima >>> >>> IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo >>> >> >> >> -- >> Prof. Dr. Eli Franco >> Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften >> Schillerstr. 6 >> 04109 Leipzig >> >> Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office) >> Fax +49 341 9737 148 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From franco at uni-leipzig.de Mon Jun 15 14:22:34 2015 From: franco at uni-leipzig.de (Franco) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 16:22:34 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of The St. Petersburg Sanskrit Fragments (StPSF), vol. 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <741358DA-8CA3-4389-BF35-9187E98637B4@uni-leipzig.de> Sorry guys. I'd better not even begin to explain. But in case you are curious, we ended up not buying the washing machine. Sent from my iPad > On 15 Jun 2015, at 16:15, David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > > Regarding this hermeneutical puzzle: I thought Eli's message was a veiled reference to the famous TED Talk by Hans Rosling, "The Magic Washing Machine": http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_and_the_magic_washing_machine?language=en > > We cannot be sure, however, that the Ajitasenavy?kara?a was one of the books that Hans pulled out of the washing machine at the end. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > >> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 3:14 AM, Jonathan Silk wrote: >> I began to wonder about the connection between the Ajitasenavy?kara?a and a washing machine ... until I realized that Eli must have missent his message. >> But I'm delighted in the hermeneutical puzzle this will present to future philologists (yes, I used this expression on purpose ;) >> >> jonathan >> >>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:12 AM, Eli Franco wrote: >>> >>> Thank you. I am relieved. Must buy a washing machine. See you later, love, E. >>> >>> Zitat von Seishi Karashima : >>> >>>> Dear colleagues: >>>> >>>> We are happy to announce that a PDF file of the first volume of *The St. >>>> Petersburg Sanskrit Fragments* (StPSF), ed. by Seishi Karashima and >>>> Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya, Tokyo 2015: The Institute of Oriental >>>> Manuscripts of the Russian Academy of Sciences (= IOM RAS) and The >>>> International Research Institute for Advanced Buddhology (= IRIAB), Soka >>>> University, 545 pages + 123 plates, ISBN978-4-904234-11-2, is now available >>>> on the following websites: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://orientalstudies.ru/eng/index.php?option=com_publications&Itemid=75&pub=1501 >>>> >>>> http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/StPSF/index_StPSF.html >>>> >>>> >>>> *Table of contents* >>>> >>>> Foreword by Irina F. Popova vii >>>> >>>> Preface by Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya ix >>>> >>>> The *??rd?lakar??vad?na* from Central Asia by Tensho Miyazaki, Jundo >>>> Nagashima, Tatsushi Tamai and Zhou Liqun 1 >>>> >>>> The *Ajitasenavy?kara?a* Manuscripts from Central Asia and Gilgit by Jiro >>>> Hirabayashi, William B. Rasmussen and Safarali Shomakhmadov 85 >>>> >>>> The *Avad?na* Anthology from Merv, Turkmenistan by Seishi Karashima and >>>> Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya 145 >>>> >>>> The *Mah?parinirv??a-mah?s?tra* Fragments in the Petrovsky Collection (1) >>>> by Hiromi Habata 525 >>>> >>>> Postscript by Seishi Karashima 543 >>>> >>>> Plates 1~123 >>>> >>>> >>>> Seishi Karashima >>>> >>>> IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Prof. Dr. Eli Franco >>> Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften >>> Schillerstr. 6 >>> 04109 Leipzig >>> >>> Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office) >>> Fax +49 341 9737 148 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 14:31:00 2015 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 16:31:00 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of The St. Petersburg Sanskrit Fragments (StPSF), vol. 1 In-Reply-To: <741358DA-8CA3-4389-BF35-9187E98637B4@uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: another metaphor? Like 'drink the koolaid'? ;) On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Franco wrote: > Sorry guys. I'd better not even begin to explain. But in case you are > curious, we ended up not buying the washing machine. > > Sent from my iPad > > On 15 Jun 2015, at 16:15, David and Nancy Reigle > wrote: > > Regarding this hermeneutical puzzle: I thought Eli's message was a veiled > reference to the famous TED Talk by Hans Rosling, "The Magic Washing > Machine": > http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_and_the_magic_washing_machine?language=en > > We cannot be sure, however, that the Ajitasenavy?kara?a was one of the > books that Hans pulled out of the washing machine at the end. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 3:14 AM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > >> I began to wonder about the connection between the Ajitasenavy?kara?a and >> a washing machine ... until I realized that Eli must have missent his >> message. >> But I'm delighted in the hermeneutical puzzle this will present to future >> philologists (yes, I used this expression on purpose ;) >> >> jonathan >> >> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:12 AM, Eli Franco >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Thank you. I am relieved. Must buy a washing machine. See you later, >>> love, E. >>> >>> Zitat von Seishi Karashima : >>> >>> Dear colleagues: >>>> >>>> We are happy to announce that a PDF file of the first volume of *The St. >>>> Petersburg Sanskrit Fragments* (StPSF), ed. by Seishi Karashima and >>>> Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya, Tokyo 2015: The Institute of >>>> Oriental >>>> Manuscripts of the Russian Academy of Sciences (= IOM RAS) and The >>>> International Research Institute for Advanced Buddhology (= IRIAB), Soka >>>> University, 545 pages + 123 plates, ISBN978-4-904234-11-2, is now >>>> available >>>> on the following websites: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://orientalstudies.ru/eng/index.php?option=com_publications&Itemid=75&pub=1501 >>>> >>>> http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/StPSF/index_StPSF.html >>>> >>>> >>>> *Table of contents* >>>> >>>> Foreword by Irina F. Popova vii >>>> >>>> Preface by Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya ix >>>> >>>> The *??rd?lakar??vad?na* from Central Asia by Tensho Miyazaki, Jundo >>>> Nagashima, Tatsushi Tamai and Zhou Liqun 1 >>>> >>>> The *Ajitasenavy?kara?a* Manuscripts from Central Asia and Gilgit by >>>> Jiro >>>> Hirabayashi, William B. Rasmussen and Safarali Shomakhmadov 85 >>>> >>>> The *Avad?na* Anthology from Merv, Turkmenistan by Seishi Karashima and >>>> Margarita I. Vorobyova-Desyatovskaya 145 >>>> >>>> The *Mah?parinirv??a-mah?s?tra* Fragments in the Petrovsky Collection >>>> (1) >>>> by Hiromi Habata 525 >>>> >>>> Postscript by Seishi Karashima 543 >>>> >>>> Plates 1~123 >>>> >>>> >>>> Seishi Karashima >>>> >>>> IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Prof. Dr. Eli Franco >>> Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften >>> Schillerstr. 6 >>> 04109 Leipzig >>> >>> Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office) >>> Fax +49 341 9737 148 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Mon Jun 15 14:57:33 2015 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 14:57:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unicorn rgveda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for your message, Khem Lao. It is always good to go to the original, rather than rely on a 19th-century translation. Here is the Sanskrit text: v??abh? n? tigm????go (RV 10.86.15) As you can see, tigm????ga is a bahuvr?hi compound, whose gender and number marking is determined by the possessor (the bull). The gender and number of the thing possessed (the sharp tigma horn ???ga) is neutralized. The reading ?with pointed (or sharp) horn? therefore is arbitrary; an alternative reading ?with sharp horns? is equally possible, and given the nature of bovine animals, probably more likely. Jamison & Brereton?s translation ?sharp-horned? manages to capture the neutralization of number indication very nicely. Best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock On 15 Jun 2015, at 03:26, Khem Lao > wrote: Hi Hans, RV 10/86/15 has this translation by Griffith: 15. Like as a bull with pointed horn, loud bellowing amid the herds, Sweet to thine heart, O Indra, is the brew which she who tends thee pours. Supreme is Indra over all. Why do scholars not accept this as the unicorn depicted on IVC seals? Best, Khem -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 15:19:43 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 20:49:43 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, you did not say anything like IVC is superior to Vedic or urban is superior to pastoral/nomadic. As such, my words do not apply to your post. I have been working on a shepherd community partly retaining its itinerant life style partly settled, spread in Telangana, southern Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. Prof. Gunther Sontheimer worked on the Maarashtra side of the topic, earlier to me. This is, as you can understand, apart from my being one of those looking back at the painful colonial past of my country. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 4:35 PM, George Thompson wrote: > "Civilizational" is a word that is not a part of my personal lexicon. I > pointed out the IVC was urban whereas Vedic was pastoral/nomadic. I > expressed no evolutionist/racist views. > > George > > By the way, I am half Euro and half Siberian, and I know well what it is > like to be a victim off racism. > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 5:07 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> Civilizational cultures are superior to/ achievements >> over non-civilizational/ pastoral is evolutionist. Evolutionism has racist >> underpinnings. >> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi >> Hyderabad-500044 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de Mon Jun 15 16:21:24 2015 From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 16:21:24 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unicorn rgveda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94BA3647FB@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de> As did Geldner's "Wie ein spitzhorniger Stier", by the way. RG ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von "Hock, Hans Henrich [hhhock at illinois.edu] Gesendet: Montag, 15. Juni 2015 16:57 An: Khem Lao Cc: Indology List Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] unicorn rgveda Thanks for your message, Khem Lao. It is always good to go to the original, rather than rely on a 19th-century translation. Here is the Sanskrit text: v??abh? n? tigm????go (RV 10.86.15) As you can see, tigm????ga is a bahuvr?hi compound, whose gender and number marking is determined by the possessor (the bull). The gender and number of the thing possessed (the sharp tigma horn ???ga) is neutralized. The reading ?with pointed (or sharp) horn? therefore is arbitrary; an alternative reading ?with sharp horns? is equally possible, and given the nature of bovine animals, probably more likely. Jamison & Brereton?s translation ?sharp-horned? manages to capture the neutralization of number indication very nicely. Best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock On 15 Jun 2015, at 03:26, Khem Lao > wrote: Hi Hans, RV 10/86/15 has this translation by Griffith: 15. Like as a bull with pointed horn, loud bellowing amid the herds, Sweet to thine heart, O Indra, is the brew which she who tends thee pours. Supreme is Indra over all. Why do scholars not accept this as the unicorn depicted on IVC seals? Best, Khem -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk Mon Jun 15 17:00:12 2015 From: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk (Rupert Gethin) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 18:00:12 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unicorn rgveda In-Reply-To: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94BA3647FB@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de> Message-ID: <557F049C.8030101@bristol.ac.uk> It is perhaps worth pointing out that in the poetic style of English that Griffith was using "with pointed horn" is strictly speaking also neutral as to number. Compare this phrase from George Henry Needler's 1904 translation of the Nibelungenleid (916): " The boar within the forest they?d chase with pointed spear" Rupert Gethin University of Bristol Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk On 15/06/2015 17:21, Gruenendahl, Reinhold wrote: > > As did Geldner's "Wie ein spitzhorniger Stier", by the way. > > RG > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Von:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von > "Hock, Hans Henrich [hhhock at illinois.edu] > *Gesendet:* Montag, 15. Juni 2015 16:57 > *An:* Khem Lao > *Cc:* Indology List > *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] unicorn rgveda > > Thanks for your message, Khem Lao. > > It is always good to go to the original, rather than rely on a > 19th-century translation. Here is the Sanskrit text: > > v??abh? n? tigm????go (RV 10.86.15) > > As you can see, /tigm????ga/ is a bahuvr?hi compound, whose gender and > number marking is determined by the possessor (the bull). The gender > and number of the thing possessed (the sharp /tigma/ horn /???ga/) is > neutralized. The reading ?with pointed (or sharp) horn? therefore is > arbitrary; an alternative reading ?with sharp horns? is equally > possible, and given the nature of bovine animals, probably more > likely. Jamison & Brereton?s translation ?sharp-horned? manages to > capture the neutralization of number indication very nicely. > > Best wishes, > > Hans Henrich Hock > > > > On 15 Jun 2015, at 03:26, Khem Lao > wrote: > >> Hi Hans, >> RV 10/86/15 has this translation by Griffith: >> 15. Like as a bull with pointed horn, loud bellowing amid the herds, >> Sweet to thine heart, O Indra, is the brew which she who tends thee pours. >> Supreme is Indra over all. >> Why do scholars not accept this as the unicorn depicted on IVC seals? >> >> Best, >> Khem > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 17:30:19 2015 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 13:30:19 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear List, I've been asked to be more specific. Admittedly, the term "Siberian" is very vague. My son is engaged to a professional genealogist who encouraged him to take a DNA test for paternal descent. It turns out that my father, whom I have never met, is from Yakutsk and very likely to be a Sakha of that region. George On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Yes, you did not say anything like IVC is superior to Vedic or urban is > superior to pastoral/nomadic. As such, my words do not apply to your post. > > I have been working on a shepherd community partly retaining its itinerant > life style partly settled, spread in Telangana, southern Andhra Pradesh and > Karnataka. Prof. Gunther Sontheimer worked on the Maarashtra side of the > topic, earlier to me. > > This is, as you can understand, apart from my being one of those looking > back at the painful colonial past of my country. > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 4:35 PM, George Thompson > wrote: > >> "Civilizational" is a word that is not a part of my personal lexicon. I >> pointed out the IVC was urban whereas Vedic was pastoral/nomadic. I >> expressed no evolutionist/racist views. >> >> George >> >> By the way, I am half Euro and half Siberian, and I know well what it is >> like to be a victim off racism. >> >> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 5:07 AM, Nagaraj Paturi >> wrote: >> >>> Civilizational cultures are superior to/ achievements >>> over non-civilizational/ pastoral is evolutionist. Evolutionism has racist >>> underpinnings. >>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi >>> Hyderabad-500044 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> > > > -- > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad-500044 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 17:56:32 2015 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 13:56:32 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unicorn rgveda In-Reply-To: <557F049C.8030101@bristol.ac.uk> Message-ID: Speaking of horns, RV 1.163, one of the two asvastutis in the RV, refers to the horse's golden horns [in stanza 9], while in stanza 11 it is said that his horns branch out in many directions. Clearly, the horse is wearing a reindeer mask like the one found in Pazyryk. See Sergei Rudenko *Frozen Tombs of Siberia: The Pazyryk Burials of Iron-Age Horsemen* [published in Russian in 1953 and translated into English in 1970]. cheers, George On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Rupert Gethin wrote: > It is perhaps worth pointing out that in the poetic style of English that > Griffith was using "with pointed horn" is strictly speaking also neutral as > to number. Compare this phrase from George Henry Needler's 1904 translation > of the Nibelungenleid (916): " The boar within the forest they?d chase with > pointed spear" > > Rupert Gethin > University of Bristol > > Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk > > > On 15/06/2015 17:21, Gruenendahl, Reinhold wrote: > > > As did Geldner's "Wie ein spitzhorniger Stier", by the way. > > RG > > > ------------------------------ > *Von:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von > "Hock, Hans Henrich [hhhock at illinois.edu] > *Gesendet:* Montag, 15. Juni 2015 16:57 > *An:* Khem Lao > *Cc:* Indology List > *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] unicorn rgveda > > Thanks for your message, Khem Lao. > > It is always good to go to the original, rather than rely on a > 19th-century translation. Here is the Sanskrit text: > > v??abh? n? tigm????go (RV 10.86.15) > > As you can see, *tigm????ga* is a bahuvr?hi compound, whose gender and > number marking is determined by the possessor (the bull). The gender and > number of the thing possessed (the sharp *tigma* horn *???ga*) is > neutralized. The reading ?with pointed (or sharp) horn? therefore is > arbitrary; an alternative reading ?with sharp horns? is equally possible, > and given the nature of bovine animals, probably more likely. Jamison & > Brereton?s translation ?sharp-horned? manages to capture the neutralization > of number indication very nicely. > > Best wishes, > > Hans Henrich Hock > > > > On 15 Jun 2015, at 03:26, Khem Lao wrote: > > Hi Hans, > RV 10/86/15 has this translation by Griffith: > > 15. Like as a bull with pointed horn, loud bellowing amid the herds, > Sweet to thine heart, O Indra, is the brew which she who tends thee pours. > Supreme is Indra over all. > > Why do scholars not accept this as the unicorn depicted on IVC seals? > > Best, > Khem > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From svose at sas.upenn.edu Mon Jun 15 18:06:20 2015 From: svose at sas.upenn.edu (Steven Vose) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 14:06:20 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Online Lecture Series on Jain Texts now available for viewing Message-ID: <5C788EB3-FFD7-4C45-929B-EB6B85635D88@sas.upenn.edu> Dear Indology-jana, The recently-concluded Online Lecture Series on Jain Texts, hosted by the Jain Studies Program at Florida International University, is now available for viewing on our website. The text addressed in these lectures is the Acaranga Sutra, the first anga of the Svetambara canon. The website is: http://jainstudies.fiu.edu/online-lecture-series/ The speakers and topics of the lectures are: Online Lecture Series on Jain Texts: ?c?r??ga S?tra May 16 - Professor Nalini Balbir (Sorbonne)?Monastic Discipline in the ?c?r??ga S?tra May 23 - Professor Christopher Chapple (Loyola Marymount)?Ethics of the ?c?r??ga S?tra May 30 - Professor Ellen Gough (Emory University)?Enlightenment and Liberation in the ?c?r??ga S?tra June 6 - Ven. Samani Unnata Pragya (JVBI) Mahavira?in the ?c?r??ga S?tra Stay tuned for the next iteration of this series in the following academic year. I thank the many of you who expressed interest and support of this series. With best wishes (and apologies for cross posting), Steve Steven M. Vose Bhagwan Mahavir Assistant Professor of Jain Studies Director, Jain Studies Program Department of Religious Studies Florida International University 11200 SW 8th St., DM 359-A Miami, FL 33199 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 18:22:24 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 23:52:24 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name Message-ID: Oh, my, I noticed it just now! Prof. Dominik Wujastyk, You said in your recent post: What George Thompson pointed out is that the post by *Nagaraj Paturi *used a series of different forms of address that appeared to express gradations in his judgements about the different people he was naming, from formal=respected to informal=not so much. (highlighting mine) I am surprised to see my name in this passage. Prof. Gorge Thompson was saying : In his recent post to Indology, *Prof. Pandurangi *refers to three Western Indologists. One is referred to as 'Prof. Jesse.' Another is referred to as 'Dr Wendy Doniger.' And a third is referred to as 'Howard Resnick.' Then in passing he refers to three other Indologists as 'reputed scholars like Cardona, Aklujkar and Deshpande, etc.' Can you explain to me the complex sociological hierarchy of this system of reference? Do you think that there is no hierarchy here? Do you really think that in this context "Prof. Jesse" is respectful? (highlighting mine) Hope you are able to see the wrong (probably mistaken) mention of my name in your post. Regards, Nagaraj -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 18:30:20 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 15 00:00:20 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whoever has asked you to be more specific probably did not know that I hardly understand or pay attention to any of these specifics. I admit that I need to learn these cultural details in case by any chance I take it up as my subject of study. In any case, I appreciate the efforts. Sorry for being ignorant in these matters. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:00 PM, George Thompson wrote: > Dear List, > > I've been asked to be more specific. Admittedly, the term "Siberian" is > very vague. My son is engaged to a professional genealogist who encouraged > him to take a DNA test for paternal descent. It turns out that my father, > whom I have never met, is from Yakutsk and very likely to be a Sakha of > that region. > > George > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> Yes, you did not say anything like IVC is superior to Vedic or urban is >> superior to pastoral/nomadic. As such, my words do not apply to your post. >> >> I have been working on a shepherd community partly retaining its >> itinerant life style partly settled, spread in Telangana, southern Andhra >> Pradesh and Karnataka. Prof. Gunther Sontheimer worked on the Maarashtra >> side of the topic, earlier to me. >> >> This is, as you can understand, apart from my being one of those looking >> back at the painful colonial past of my country. >> >> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 4:35 PM, George Thompson >> wrote: >> >>> "Civilizational" is a word that is not a part of my personal lexicon. I >>> pointed out the IVC was urban whereas Vedic was pastoral/nomadic. I >>> expressed no evolutionist/racist views. >>> >>> George >>> >>> By the way, I am half Euro and half Siberian, and I know well what it is >>> like to be a victim off racism. >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 5:07 AM, Nagaraj Paturi >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Civilizational cultures are superior to/ achievements >>>> over non-civilizational/ pastoral is evolutionist. Evolutionism has racist >>>> underpinnings. >>>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi >>>> Hyderabad-500044 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi >> Hyderabad-500044 >> > > -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 19:20:19 2015 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 15:20:19 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nagaraj, I apologize if I have confused you with someone else. I have been having too many online conversations today. I need to stop. All best wishes, George n On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Whoever has asked you to be more specific probably did not know that I > hardly understand or pay attention to any of these specifics. > > I admit that I need to learn these cultural details in case by any chance > I take it up as my subject of study. > > In any case, I appreciate the efforts. Sorry for being ignorant in these > matters. > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:00 PM, George Thompson > wrote: > >> Dear List, >> >> I've been asked to be more specific. Admittedly, the term "Siberian" is >> very vague. My son is engaged to a professional genealogist who encouraged >> him to take a DNA test for paternal descent. It turns out that my father, >> whom I have never met, is from Yakutsk and very likely to be a Sakha of >> that region. >> >> George >> >> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > > wrote: >> >>> Yes, you did not say anything like IVC is superior to Vedic or urban is >>> superior to pastoral/nomadic. As such, my words do not apply to your post. >>> >>> I have been working on a shepherd community partly retaining its >>> itinerant life style partly settled, spread in Telangana, southern Andhra >>> Pradesh and Karnataka. Prof. Gunther Sontheimer worked on the Maarashtra >>> side of the topic, earlier to me. >>> >>> This is, as you can understand, apart from my being one of those looking >>> back at the painful colonial past of my country. >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 4:35 PM, George Thompson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> "Civilizational" is a word that is not a part of my personal lexicon. >>>> I pointed out the IVC was urban whereas Vedic was pastoral/nomadic. I >>>> expressed no evolutionist/racist views. >>>> >>>> George >>>> >>>> By the way, I am half Euro and half Siberian, and I know well what it >>>> is like to be a victim off racism. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 5:07 AM, Nagaraj Paturi < >>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Civilizational cultures are superior to/ achievements >>>>> over non-civilizational/ pastoral is evolutionist. Evolutionism has racist >>>>> underpinnings. >>>>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> Hyderabad-500044 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi >>> Hyderabad-500044 >>> >> >> > > > -- > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad-500044 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 23:46:16 2015 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 15 19:46:16 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Another_new_title_jointly_published_by_the_Institut_Fran=C3=A7ais_de_Pondich=C3=A9ry/Ecole_fran=C3=A7aise_d'Extr=C3=AAme-Orient/Asien-Afrika-Institut,_Universit=C3=A4t_Hamburg?= In-Reply-To: <557E6FFF.9010007@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: Is it possible to order EFEO publications from a distributor in Canada or is it necessary to order them from the EFEO in India? Thanks, Harry Spier On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 2:26 AM, Anurupa Naik wrote: > *JUST RELEASED* > > > > *The Brahmay?malatantra or Picumata. Volume II. The Religious Observances > and Sexual Rituals of the Tantric Practitioner: Chapters 3, 21, and 45.* > > A Critical Edition and Annotated Translation by *Csaba Kiss*, Collection > Indologie n? 130; Early Tantra Series n? 3, Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry > / Ecole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient / Asien-Afrika-Institut, Universit?t > Hamburg, 373 p. > > Language: Sanskrit, English. *750 Rs (32 ?). * ISBN: 978-81-8470-207-1 > (IFP) / 978-2-85539-153-3 (EFEO). > > > > The *Brahmay?malatantra* (aka *Picumata*) is probably one of the earliest > surviving ?aiva tantras, and possibly the earliest one known to us of the > Bhairavatantra tradition. The present volume contains a critical edition > and annotated translation of three of its chapters: one on the central > *ma??ala* of the cult, one on preliminary religious observances (*vrata*) > prescribed for all practitioners (*s?dhaka*), and one on instructions for > each individual category of *s?dhaka* ? instructions on transgressive > sexual rituals for the T?laka, on strict rules of conduct for the chaste > Carubhojin, and on a combination of these for the Mixed Practitioner. This > unique system of *s?dhaka*s marks an early phase in the development of > classification of practitioners seeking liberation and magical powers, and > gives us an insight into the tantric world of extremes: of rule-bound > sexual encounters involving several female partners and highly impure > substances on the one hand, and of asceticism, strict vegetarianism and > chastity on the other. > > > > The introduction deals with the main topics raised by the selected > chapters, as well as with problems of the sometimes extremely non-standard > (Ai?a) Sanskrit that the oldest manuscript transmits. One of the appendices > provides a summary of the first twenty-five chapters (about one quarter of > the *Brahmay?mala*) to facilitate further study. The extensive index > includes all important keywords and all major Ai?a phenomena. > > *Keywords:* Mantram?rga, ?aivism, Bhairavatantras, Early Tantra, > Transgressive Sexual Rituals > > > > *About the Editor* > > After studies in Budapest, *Csaba Kiss *obtained his doctorate from > Oxford University for his edition of selected chapters of the > *Matsyendrasa?hit?*, a thirteenth-century ?aiva tantric text on yoga. He > joined the Early Tantra Project in 2008 to produce this volume, and is > currently research assistant at ELTE University, Budapest, working on texts > of the tantric Kubjik? tradition and of the *j?tiviveka* genre. > > > > > *To order, contact:* > > > Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry > > > P. B. 33, 11, St. Louis Street, > > Pondicherry-605001, INDIA > > Ph: +91-413-2231660 / 661. Fax: +91 413-2231605 > > E-mail: library at ifpindia.org > > > > Ecole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient > > P.O. Box 151,16 & 19, Dumas Street > > Pondicherry - 605001,INDIA > > Ph: +91-413-2334539. Fax +91-413-2330886 > > E-mail: shanti at efeo-pondicherry.org > > -- > Ms. Anurupa Naik > Head, Library and Publication Division > French Institute of Pondicherry (IFP) > UMIFRE 21 CNRS-MAEE > P.B. 33 > 11, St. Louis Street > Pondicherry-605 001, INDIA > > Tel: 91-413-2231660 > Fax: 91-413-2231605 > e-mail: anurupa.n at ifpindia.org > website: www.ifpindia.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pf8 at soas.ac.uk Tue Jun 16 09:34:49 2015 From: pf8 at soas.ac.uk (Peter Flugel) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 15 10:34:49 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] MPhil/PhD Scholarship in Jaina Studies Message-ID: Jaina Studies Scholarship 2015Deadline: 15 July 2015 Thanks to the generosity of the B.C. Mehta Trust, SOAS is pleased to offer one Jaina Studies Scholarship. The scholarship is for a first year MPhil/PhD in the Study of Religions with a research proposal on Jaina Studies. The candidate must be a new admission (starting in September 2015). The candidate must be eligible to pay the full time overseas tuition fee for 2015/16. The total value of the scholarship for 2015/16 is ?14,100 to be used for the first year tuition fee only.The Jaina Studies Scholarship is for one year only and cannot be renewed. http://www.soas.ac.uk/registry/scholarships/elap-scholarship.html -- Dr Peter Fl?gel Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies Department of the Study of Religions Faculty of Arts and Humanities School of Oriental and African Studies University of London Thornhaugh Street Russell Square London WC1H OXG Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776 E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 12:12:57 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 15 14:12:57 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm terribly sorry! You're absolutely right! I was looking at the wrong email header. Please accept my apologies. ? ?Dominik Wujastyk? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reimann at berkeley.edu Tue Jun 16 22:43:46 2015 From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 15 15:43:46 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5580A6A2.9070008@berkeley.edu> Dear all, As part of this thread, the clear differences between the IVC and the culture of the /Rg Veda/ have been briefly mentioned. Veeranarayana Pandurangi brought up another issue, the genetic evidence regarding the entrance of peoples into India during the Rgvedic period. He attached an article (Metspalu et al.) which, he said, "disproves the influx of people into India." In a new article called "Population Genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia (Allentoft et al.)," published in /Nature/ only five day ago, the authors conclude that their "analyses support that migrations during the Early Bronze Age is a probable scenario for the spread of Indo-European languages." This goes in the opposite direction of the article by Metspalu et al., and gives strong genetic support to the notion of an influx into the Sub Continent between 3000-1000 BCE. The authors of the new article used a very large data set for their study. Here is the abstract. The Bronze Age of Eurasia (around 3000?1000 BC) was a period of major cultural changes. However, there is debate about whether these changes resulted from the circulation of ideas or from human migrations, potentially also facilitating the spread of languages and certain phenotypic traits. We investigated this by using new, improved methods to sequence low-coverage genomes from 101 ancient humans from across Eurasia. We show that the Bronze Age was a highly dynamic period involving large-scale population migrations and replacements, responsible for shaping major parts of present-day demographic structure in both Europe and Asia. Our findings are consistent with the hypothesized spread of Indo-European languages during the Early Bronze Age. We also demonstrate that light skin pigmentation in Europeans was already present at high frequency in the Bronze Age, but not lactose tolerance, indicating a more recent onset of positive selection on lactose tolerance than previously thought. And this is the link to the article: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/pdf/nature14507.pdf Luis Gonzalez-Reimann -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 02:25:23 2015 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 15 22:25:23 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: <5580A6A2.9070008@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Dear Luis, Thanks for this reference. George On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 6:43 PM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > Dear all, > > As part of this thread, the clear differences between the IVC and the > culture of the *Rg Veda* have been briefly mentioned. Veeranarayana > Pandurangi brought up another issue, the genetic evidence regarding the > entrance of peoples into India during the Rgvedic period. He attached an > article (Metspalu et al.) which, he said, "disproves the influx of people > into India." > > In a new article called "Population Genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia > (Allentoft et al.)," published in *Nature* only five day ago, the authors > conclude that their "analyses support that migrations during the Early > Bronze Age is a probable scenario for the spread of Indo-European > languages." This goes in the opposite direction of the article by Metspalu > et al., and gives strong genetic support to the notion of an influx into > the Sub Continent between 3000-1000 BCE. The authors of the new article > used a very large data set for their study. > > Here is the abstract. > > The Bronze Age of Eurasia (around 3000?1000 BC) was a period of major > cultural changes. However, there is debate about whether these changes > resulted from the circulation of ideas or from human migrations, > potentially also facilitating the spread of languages and certain > phenotypic traits. We investigated this by using new, improved methods to > sequence low-coverage genomes from 101 ancient humans from across Eurasia. > We show that the Bronze Age was a highly dynamic period involving > large-scale population migrations and replacements, responsible for shaping > major parts of present-day demographic structure in both Europe and Asia. > Our findings are consistent with the hypothesized spread of Indo-European > languages during the Early Bronze Age. We also demonstrate that light skin > pigmentation in Europeans was already present at high frequency in the > Bronze Age, but not lactose tolerance, indicating a more recent onset of > positive selection on lactose tolerance than previously thought. > And this is the link to the article: > > http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/pdf/nature14507.pdf > > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 04:26:16 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 09:56:16 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Its alright. These oversights happen with everyone of us. Now ,coming to the point of discussion in the thread, when I went through Prof. Pandurangi's mail, for an analysis in terms of this title in front of first name or second name or no title at all, I was not able to see any system or hierarchy in this matter in the mail. Just curious to learn from the list members who speak English as their mother tongue: is it considered insulting inside the English speaking culture, if the title such as Mr or Prof is kept in front of the first name? This was seriously an interesting piece of cultural information from me. Learning such cultural nuances of English language appears to be a never ending process for English learners like me. On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > I'm terribly sorry! You're absolutely right! I was looking at the wrong > email header. Please accept my apologies. > ? > ?Dominik Wujastyk? > -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 04:31:47 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 10:01:47 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A small correction of a typo: I did not want to type This was seriously an interesting piece of cultural information *from* me It wanted to type This was seriously an interesting piece of cultural information *for* me. On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:56 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Its alright. These oversights happen with everyone of us. > > Now ,coming to the point of discussion in the thread, when I went through > Prof. Pandurangi's mail, for an analysis in terms of this title in front of > first name or second name or no title at all, I was not able to see any > system or hierarchy in this matter in the mail. > > Just curious to learn from the list members who speak English as their > mother tongue: is it considered insulting inside the English speaking > culture, if the title such as Mr or Prof is kept in front of the first > name? This was seriously an interesting piece of cultural information from > me. Learning such cultural nuances of English language appears to be a > never ending process for English learners like me. > > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > >> I'm terribly sorry! You're absolutely right! I was looking at the wrong >> email header. Please accept my apologies. >> ? >> ?Dominik Wujastyk? >> > > > > -- > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad-500044 > -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yogacara at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 04:47:43 2015 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 00:47:43 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <629A796E3A4541E38192C344BC507F65@Dan> Dear list, Would anyone happen to have a PDF they are willing to share of Pra?astap?d?c?rya.: Pad?rthadharmasa?graha of Pra?astap?da : with the Ny?yakandal? of ?r?dhara / translated into English by Ga?gan?tha Jh?.. Varanasi : Chaukhambha Orientalia, 1982 or know where one is accessible? I have tried numerous times, unsuccessfully, to purchase a hardcopy from various Indian booksellers, and the library is now recalling this volume from me. I have the Sanskrit texts, but would like my own copy of G. Jha's translation. Many thanks in advance. Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 05:42:46 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 11:12:46 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] request Message-ID: The book is available for download at http://www.southasiaarchive.com/Content/sarf.144864/213373. But there are conditions for getting access to download. -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 05:45:47 2015 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 05:45:47 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Prof. Paturi, As so often in life, everything depends on context. I don't think one can generalize about English as a whole, because attitudes on forms of address are different for instance between the USA and the UK, and within those countries will depend on many factors such as class and education. Use of titles can be a form of politeness but it can also be a strategy of distancing, for instance when the speaker disapproves of the person he's speaking about. I believe that for most native English speakers it sounds strange to see an academic title combined with a first name rather than the surname, and strangeness may be experienced as unpleasantness by some. I personally don't like it when people address me with both given name and surname, but this happens frequently, and I suppose it doesn't help that most people can't tell from my given name Arlo whether I am a "Mr." or a "Mrs.". Then again, people from other parts of the world than my own may not even be able to determine which is my given name and which is my surname. People may come from parts of the world where no distinction between surnames and given names parallel to the one made in many (all?) English-speaking parts of the world is made. Many (geographic and social) parts of India do not know such a distinction. Hence I was, frankly, a bit surprised to see colleagues take offense in this forum at such a common feature of intercultural communication as the one that has caught your interest. Some more attention to and respect for diversity in naming practices among Indologists would in my opinion be salutary. How often have I had to correct bibliographies where authors such as "Raghu Vira" and "Lokesh Chandra" with unitary but bipartite names were dissected to become "Vira, Raghu" and "Chandra, Lokesh" and placed under V and C? How often have I seen Dutch names with "van (der/den)" arranged under V in bibliographies? Best wishes, Arlo Griffiths Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 09:56:16 +0530 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com To: wujastyk at gmail.com Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name CC: indology at list.indology.info Its alright. These oversights happen with everyone of us. Now ,coming to the point of discussion in the thread, when I went through Prof. Pandurangi's mail, for an analysis in terms of this title in front of first name or second name or no title at all, I was not able to see any system or hierarchy in this matter in the mail. Just curious to learn from the list members who speak English as their mother tongue: is it considered insulting inside the English speaking culture, if the title such as Mr or Prof is kept in front of the first name? This was seriously an interesting piece of cultural information from me. Learning such cultural nuances of English language appears to be a never ending process for English learners like me. On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: I'm terribly sorry! You're absolutely right! I was looking at the wrong email header. Please accept my apologies. ??Dominik Wujastyk? -- Prof.Nagaraj PaturiHyderabad-500044 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yogacara at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 07:47:48 2015 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 03:47:48 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0206E7D61CFF437FA18B536DC180C200@Dan> I thank Prof. Paturi for his suggestion, but the "conditions for getting access" make this option non-viable (basically one has to get an institutional librarian to subscribe to their service). Does anyone have a less daunting way of acquiring a PDF of Jha's Pra?astap?da translation? Thanks, again. Dan Lusthaus ----- Original Message ----- The book is available for download at http://www.southasiaarchive.com/Content/sarf.144864/213373. But there are conditions for getting access to download. -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yogacara at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 10:33:04 2015 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 06:33:04 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to someone who may prefer to remain anonymous, I now have Jha's translation. The generosity and helpfulness of this list is a wonderful boon. best, Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 12:25:55 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 14:25:55 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 17 June 2015 at 07:45, Arlo Griffiths wrote: > Dear Prof. Paturi, > > ?... I believe that for most native English speakers it sounds strange to > see an academic title combined with a first name rather than the surname, > ?As a native speaker of British English, I would agree with that. Nobody actually does it, as far as I know. If I heard it, in a UK context, I would assume it was an error, and reply, "No, 'Dominik' is my first name. My family name is 'Wujastyk'." Best, ?Dr Dominik? :-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Wed Jun 17 12:32:58 2015 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 13:32:58 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5CF99E2B-13FF-4148-B797-FCE049511ED8@btinternet.com> Quite so. The only situation in which I can imagine anyone saying ?Dr Valerie? would be if a family member or close friend were teasing me about my academic pretensions. Otherwise it would be an error. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK > On 17 Jun 2015, at 13:25, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > On 17 June 2015 at 07:45, Arlo Griffiths > wrote: > Dear Prof. Paturi, > > ?... I believe that for most native English speakers it sounds strange to see an academic title combined with a first name rather than the surname, > > ?As a native speaker of British English, I would agree with that. Nobody actually does it, as far as I know. If I heard it, in a UK context, I would assume it was an error, and reply, > "No, 'Dominik' is my first name. My family name is 'Wujastyk'." > > Best, > ?Dr Dominik? :-) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Wed Jun 17 12:47:31 2015 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 14:47:31 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The R.P. Jo(h)annes Ernestus Hanxleden and Paulinus a Sancto Bartholomaeo are remembered in Malayalam tradition as, respectively, ar???s? p?tiri (?Father Ernest(o)?) and paulin?s? p?tiri ('Father Paulinos'). I suppose that their Indian name was something accepted and used by themselves in the local context. Le 17 juin 2015 ? 14:25, Dominik Wujastyk a ?crit : > On 17 June 2015 at 07:45, Arlo Griffiths wrote: > Dear Prof. Paturi, > > ?... I believe that for most native English speakers it sounds strange to see an academic title combined with a first name rather than the surname, > > ?As a native speaker of British English, I would agree with that. Nobody actually does it, as far as I know. If I heard it, in a UK context, I would assume it was an error, and reply, > "No, 'Dominik' is my first name. My family name is 'Wujastyk'." > > Best, > ?Dr Dominik? :-) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 13:27:28 2015 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 15:27:28 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wonder if this is more akin to the (as far as I know, only British) usage such as Sir William, Sir James, with no mention made of family name? A quick and entirely unscientific google research (you know, like how our students often 'do research') yielded plenty of ghits of "Father + [first name only]" so... (as with much 'research', no conclusion) jonathan On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Christophe Vielle < christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote: > The R.P. Jo(h)annes Ernestus Hanxleden and Paulinus a Sancto Bartholomaeo > are remembered in Malayalam tradition as, respectively, *ar???s? p?tiri * (?Father > Ernest(o)?) and *paulin?s? p?tiri* ('Father Paulinos'). I suppose that > their Indian name was something accepted and used by themselves in the > local context. > > Le 17 juin 2015 ? 14:25, Dominik Wujastyk a ?crit : > > On 17 June 2015 at 07:45, Arlo Griffiths > wrote: > >> Dear Prof. Paturi, >> >> ?... I believe that for most native English speakers it sounds strange to >> see an academic title combined with a first name rather than the surname, >> > > ?As a native speaker of British English, I would agree with that. Nobody > actually does it, as far as I know. If I heard it, in a UK context, I > would assume it was an error, and reply, > "No, 'Dominik' is my first name. My family name is 'Wujastyk'." > > Best, > ?Dr Dominik? :-) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 13:47:22 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 15:47:22 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah, yes, ecclesiatical titles. Of course. "You are old, Father William, the young man said," And yet, "The Amazing Adventures of Father Brown." And nobility. As in one of our own, Sir James. ??Isn't it pleasant to speak of inconsequential matter ?s? ?, just for a while? Dominik? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk Wed Jun 17 14:06:48 2015 From: BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk (Simon Brodbeck) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 14:06:48 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In view of recent posts on this thread, I have been wondering about ?Dr Robert?, the eponymous subject of the famous Beatles song (?Ring my friend I said you?d call, Dr Robert / Day or night he?ll be there any time at all, Dr Robert ??). If this were a surname, one would rather expect the genitive patronymic ?Roberts?. Indeed, according to the informative webpage http://www.beatlesebooks.com/dr-robert, it appears that candidates for real-life characters upon whom this Dr Robert might be loosely based include a Charles Roberts; but the writer of that page plumps instead for Dr Robert Freymann ? without, I should add, any indication that this title-plus-first-name moniker was influenced by the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi or any other acquaintances of subcontinental origin. Yours, Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Dominik Wujastyk Sent: 17 June 2015 14:47 To: Jonathan Silk Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name Ah, yes, ecclesiatical titles. Of course. "You are old, Father William, the young man said," And yet, "The Amazing Adventures of Father Brown." And nobility. As in one of our own, Sir James. ??Isn't it pleasant to speak of inconsequential matter ?s? ?, just for a while? Dominik? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Wed Jun 17 14:26:41 2015 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 09:26:41 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7658B8D5-B3D5-4E4E-B847-CA19DCD10CF1@uts.cc.utexas.edu> But there is also the typically British titles, where it is Lord + surname; and Sir + first name: Sir Winston, or Sir Winston Churchill, but not Sir Churchill. So it may be entirely possible for Indians to create a new idiom: Mr. Patrick, as I am so frequently called. On Jun 17, 2015, at 8:47 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Ah, yes, ecclesiatical titles. Of course. > > "You are old, Father William, the young man said," > > And yet, > > "The Amazing Adventures of Father Brown." > > And nobility. As in one of our own, > > Sir James. > > ??Isn't it pleasant to speak of inconsequential matter?s??, just for a while? > > Dominik? > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shyamr at yorku.ca Wed Jun 17 14:57:55 2015 From: shyamr at yorku.ca (Shyam Ranganathan) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 10:57:55 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: <7658B8D5-B3D5-4E4E-B847-CA19DCD10CF1@uts.cc.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <55818AF3.70000@yorku.ca> Dear all, I'm sure there are others who know more about this than I do, but when I was growing up I was told that in the South, people's sir names are typically their father's first name. That's how I got my last name, but as I was born in North America where I grew up, it sticks (my son for instance has my father's first name as his last name as its my official last name). I'm not sure how common a practice this is, but against this, everyone's first name seems like a more respectful thing to call them. The alternative is to refer to someone by way of their father, which is weird and patriarchal. I've grown a bit comfortable with it for a different reason. My students can't seem to pronounce my last name, but are all happy calling me Prof. Shyam (in Toronto!). Best, Shyam Ranganathan From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 15:15:21 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 17:15:21 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: <55818AF3.70000@yorku.ca> Message-ID: My understanding of the British Lord/Lady thing is that the new Lord gets to choose his "name." So Mr Jeff Bloggs, on elevation, could choose to be "Lord Semster of Netherwallop" or whatever he liked. Usually such names are related to birthplace, political constituency, or something like that. DW ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From koenraad.elst at telenet.be Wed Jun 17 18:19:40 2015 From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 20:19:40 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] politics of ICHR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <448672157.181291404.1434565180326.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Dear listfolk, Since this topic seems to be still with us, a few mises ? point. I won't mention any names (almost), they are not important, but the topics are. 1) Dileep Chakravarty is correctly quoted as lambasting Delhi University's Sanskrit Professor Bharadwaj for wanting to research the exact chronology of the Vedas and pleading his case in terms of "Aryan" history. But then, Chakravarty is assumed to consider the "Aryan" controversy as old hat. Also true. But, having heard Chakravarty speak several times, I was under the impression that he is one of the numerous Indian historians and (especially) archaeologists who don't believe in an "Aryan" invasion. And "old hat" here means something else than what many think. The present lambasting of any further "Aryan" research is typical of a school of thought (best exemplified by the notorious NS Rajaram, who lambasted Talageri and myself for even treating the debate as still worth pursuing) that asserts the debate has finished years ago and that the anti-invasionist school has won it fair and square. In India, the main debate is not between invasionists and nativists (though that is there too) but between those who dig for new and finally clinching arguments, and those who think the invasion has been definitively disproven years ago. 2) A genetic study is quoted as proving the invasion. In fact, the study proves far less, and after the technical research within their domain, the scholars in their conclusion suddenly bring in the presently predominant theory of Indo-European expansion that they have vaguely heard about. This mismatch between technical genetical research and the general conclusion mediated by non-comprehending and often partisan journalists is common and is the reason why I myself have relied on this research as little as possible until it has completely matured. But anyway, the latest genetic publications are pertinent -- and do not prove the invasion at all. This is a serious debate and perhaps too voluminous for this forum, but let me go into one example. As has been quoted here, lactose tolerance was imported in Central and then Western Europe less than 5000 years ago from Ukraine. This fits the picture of Indo-European invading from the East (as it does in both the Russian and the Indian Homeland theories) and being brought by cowherds, colourfully illustrated by the common etymology of "daughter" as literally meaning "milkmaid". But this should be linked with another recent genetic study to which an Italian Indologist drew my attention: it argues that the cows in Ukraine are genetically shown to descend partly from Indian cows, not the otherway around as the invasion scenario would imply. Cows don't hang out on top of the Hindu Kush unless humans ake them there, so this genetic mother-and-daughter relation is only possible if cowherds took their cattle across the Khyber Pass -- and this turns out to have been an India-to-Russia movement. 3) The proposed research was into the chronology of the Vedic texts. This is an entirely justified project, as a correct chronology is crucial in historiography. When scholars write things like "Katha Upanishad (600 BC)", I always wonder: How does he know? The foundation of the chronology given in textbook is very shaky,and certainly not based on any timing given in the texts themselves. One of the very few secure keys is the astronomical indications in the texts themselves. There are only few, but they are all consistent (reproducing the relative chronology of the texts based on other criteria) and they consistently point to a moderately higher chronology than that implied in and compatible with the invasion theory (though not to the wildly high chronology proposed by some Hindu writers). Not a single astronomical datum supports the low chronology taught in the textbooks. The clearest and most indisputable example is of course the Vedanga Jyotisha, which dates itself in two different ways at two different places to ca. 1350 BC, though it is defitely a post-Vedic text conventionally dated to 500 BC at most. For a scholar, the normal course of conduct would be, not immediately to drop all conventional chronology, but at least to seriously research this question, rather than lambast those who choose to do this research as "morons", "racists" and worse (to borrow terms used by one of the professors on this forum). 4) For those who demonize the Indian homeland theory because of its alleged political connotations, please consider these aspects: a) A theory may be correct even if held for reprehensible reasons, such as, according to many, Hindu nationalism. Indeed, most of you assume as much, because you people advocate a non-Indian homeland theory also espoused by the Nazis. Indeed, for the Nazis, the Aryan invasion theory (which most of you advocate in spite of clothing it in weasel words like "migration" instead of "invasion") was the illustration par excellence of their racial view: it has a dynamic race invade the country of an indolent race, it has a superior race try to guard its racial purity with the caste system, it has the superior race still partly mixing with the natives and thereby becoming inferior to their purer cousins, the British. Much of this was a Nazi interpretation, to be sure, but it was based on a scenario essentially the same as what you espouse, viz. a non-Indian homeland necessitating an intrusion into India to explain the presence of IE languages there. So, if you assume the same scenario as the Nazi assumed for specifically nazi reasons, and optimistically presumng you are not Nazis yourselves, you clearly reason that a theory can be correct eventhough the motives why some have espoused it, were/are reprehensible. So, your assumption the the Indian homeland theory has political connotations, does not imply that the theory is wrong. b) Your confident assumptions about the political miss out on many facts on the ground. Shrikant Talageri (The Rigveda, a Historical Analysis, 2000) and myself (Asterisk in Bharopiyasthan, 2007) From koenraad.elst at telenet.be Wed Jun 17 18:34:15 2015 From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 20:34:15 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] politics of ICHR In-Reply-To: <448672157.181291404.1434565180326.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Message-ID: <414643534.181310297.1434566055596.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Mistaken click on the "send" button. Sequel: Dear listfolk, Since this topic seems to be still with us, a few mises ? point. I won't mention any names (almost), they are not important, but the topics are. 1) Dileep Chakravarty is correctly quoted as lambasting Delhi University's Sanskrit Professor Bharadwaj for wanting to research the exact chronology of the Vedas and pleading his case in terms of "Aryan" history. But then, Chakravarty is assumed to consider the "Aryan" controversy as old hat. Also true. But, having heard Chakravarty speak several times, I was under the impression that he is one of the numerous Indian historians and (especially) archaeologists who don't believe in an "Aryan" invasion. And "old hat" here means something else than what many think. The present lambasting of any further "Aryan" research is typical of a school of thought (best exemplified by the notorious NS Rajaram, who lambasted Talageri and myself for even treating the debate as still worth pursuing) that asserts the debate has finished years ago and that the anti-invasionist school has won it fair and square. In India, the main debate is not between invasionists and nativists (though that is there too) but between those who dig for new and finally clinching arguments, and those who think the invasion has been definitively disproven years ago. 2) A genetic study is quoted as proving the invasion. In fact, the study proves far less, and after the technical research within their domain, the scholars in their conclusion suddenly bring in the presently predominant theory of Indo-European expansion that they have vaguely heard about. This mismatch between technical genetical research and the general conclusion mediated by non-comprehending and often partisan journalists is common and is the reason why I myself have relied on this research as little as possible until it has completely matured. But anyway, the latest genetic publications are pertinent -- and do not prove the invasion at all. This is a serious debate and perhaps too voluminous for this forum, but let me go into one example. As has been quoted here, lactose tolerance was imported in Central and then Western Europe less than 5000 years ago from Ukraine. This fits the picture of Indo-European invading from the East (as it does in both the Russian and the Indian Homeland theories) and being brought by cowherds, colourfully illustrated by the common etymology of "daughter" as literally meaning "milkmaid". But this should be linked with another recent genetic study to which an Italian Indologist drew my attention: it argues that the cows in Ukraine are genetically shown to descend partly from Indian cows, not the otherway around as the invasion scenario would imply. Cows don't hang out on top of the Hindu Kush unless humans ake them there, so this genetic mother-and-daughter relation is only possible if cowherds took their cattle across the Khyber Pass -- and this turns out to have been an India-to-Russia movement. 3) The proposed research was into the chronology of the Vedic texts. This is an entirely justified project, as a correct chronology is crucial in historiography. When scholars write things like "Katha Upanishad (600 BC)", I always wonder: How does he know? The foundation of the chronology given in textbook is very shaky,and certainly not based on any timing given in the texts themselves. One of the very few secure keys is the astronomical indications in the texts themselves. There are only few, but they are all consistent (reproducing the relative chronology of the texts based on other criteria) and they consistently point to a moderately higher chronology than that implied in and compatible with the invasion theory (though not to the wildly high chronology proposed by some Hindu writers). Not a single astronomical datum supports the low chronology taught in the textbooks. The clearest and most indisputable example is of course the Vedanga Jyotisha, which dates itself in two different ways at two different places to ca. 1350 BC, though it is defitely a post-Vedic text conventionally dated to 500 BC at most. For a scholar, the normal course of conduct would be, not immediately to drop all conventional chronology, but at least to seriously research this question, rather than lambast those who choose to do this research as "morons", "racists" and worse (to borrow terms used by one of the professors on this forum). 4) For those who demonize the Indian homeland theory because of its alleged political connotations, please consider these aspects: a) A theory may be correct even if held for reprehensible reasons, such as, according to many, Hindu nationalism. Indeed, most of you assume as much, because you people advocate a non-Indian homeland theory also espoused by the Nazis. Indeed, for the Nazis, the Aryan invasion theory (which most of you advocate in spite of clothing it in weasel words like "migration" instead of "invasion") was the illustration par excellence of their racial view: it has a dynamic race invade the country of an indolent race, it has a superior race try to guard its racial purity with the caste system, it has the superior race still partly mixing with the natives and thereby becoming inferior to their purer cousins, the British. Much of this was a Nazi interpretation, to be sure, but it was based on a scenario essentially the same as what you espouse, viz. a non-Indian homeland necessitating an intrusion into India to explain the presence of IE languages there. So, if you assume the same scenario as the Nazi assumed for specifically nazi reasons, and optimistically presumng you are not Nazis yourselves, you clearly reason that a theory can be correct eventhough the motives why some have espoused it, were/are reprehensible. So, your assumption the the Indian homeland theory has political connotations, does not imply that the theory is wrong. b) Your confident assumptions about the political miss out on many facts on the ground. Shrikant Talageri (The Rigveda, a Historical Analysis, 2000) and myself (Asterisk in Bharopiyasthan, 2007) ..... have each devoted a chapter on the politics of the Indian homeland scenario, containing many facts that (I get the impression here) are not known among invasionist scholars. c) If the alleged political connotations of the Indian homeland theory are for you a reason not to touch it with a barge-pole, then there are ten times as many reasons not to associate with the invasion theory. Consider: the latter has been used for a much longer time, in many more countries, by many more actors, not by some Ivory-tower scholars but from positions of power, including colonial Britain and Nazi Germany. 5? Lately I was at an archaeologists' conference in India where all the scholars present, mostly practising researchers fresh from their excavation sites, were unanimously convinced that there was full local continuity and not the least sign of an invasion. At ndo-Europeanist conferences in the West, we get an opposite consensus. It seems that this is pretty unique in the annals of scholarship, and warrants research on the issue. Kind regards, Dr. Koenraad Elst From ssandahl at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 17 19:09:20 2015 From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 15:09:20 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name In-Reply-To: <7658B8D5-B3D5-4E4E-B847-CA19DCD10CF1@uts.cc.utexas.edu> Message-ID: Dear all, I must confess that I have never really got used to the North American habit of calling everybody by their first name, but I put up with it. I don't mind it at all in India, since that is clearly the normal way. However, I certainly resent to be called Madame Stella - sounds like I am running a brothel. All the best Stella -- Stella Sandahl 9 Craftsman Lane Toronto ON M6H 4J5 ssandahl at sympatico.ca Tel. (416) 530-7755 andha? tama? pravi?anti ye ?vidy?m up?sate tato bh?ya iva te tamo ya u vidy?y?? rat?? || B?had?ra?yaka Upanisad IV.4.10 ?Those who worship ignorance enter into blind darkness. Those who are devoted to knowledge enter, as it were, into a greater darkness.? On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > But there is also the typically British titles, where it is Lord + surname; and Sir + first name: Sir Winston, or Sir Winston Churchill, but not Sir Churchill. > > So it may be entirely possible for Indians to create a new idiom: Mr. Patrick, as I am so frequently called. > > > > On Jun 17, 2015, at 8:47 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >> Ah, yes, ecclesiatical titles. Of course. >> >> "You are old, Father William, the young man said," >> >> And yet, >> >> "The Amazing Adventures of Father Brown." >> >> And nobility. As in one of our own, >> >> Sir James. >> >> ??Isn't it pleasant to speak of inconsequential matter?s??, just for a while? >> >> Dominik? >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 19:33:01 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 15 01:03:01 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name Message-ID: After all these responses my learning is this. It is not proper to place titles such as Mr or Prof in front of first names of English speaking persons. In fact I did not do that. The thumb rule I knew was put these titles in front of second names when you want to be respectful. Use the first name if you want to be informal. But I never thought about what could be the cultural connotation if title is put in front of first name. Now it seems that it evokes feelings of strangeness, insult, offense etc. It was strange to me when elderly scholars asked me to call them by their first name. I was not able to do that at all. I was strongly inhibited from my deep inside from doing that. I saw very young boys address Prof. Wendy Doniger as Wendy or Prof. Mckim Marriott as Kim. To my sensibility that sounded as weird, not a good practice. I was able to address Prof. Yigal Bronner as Yigal. Probably because he was young. I wanted to know if my addressing persons as Prof. Doniger or Prof. Marriott was offensive. I was told that it was not. Now, this is a new point I learnt. -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From manufrancis at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 20:00:46 2015 From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 15 22:00:46 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] BM South Asia, Curator - Indian Sculpture Message-ID: The British Museum?s Asia department is seeking a new Curator: South Asia to curate, develop and make widely accessible the South Asia Collection, working within the museum?s overall objectives. The scope of the South Asia Collections is extensive and this role will have a primary responsibility in the area of Indian sculpture. This is an exciting opportunity to work for the most visited attraction in the UK and for those looking to leverage their curatorial career. Further details: https://atsv7.wcn.co.uk/search_engine/jobs.cgi?SID=amNvZGU9MTQ3MjU3NyZ2dF90ZW1wbGF0ZT02NzImb3duZXI9NTAyNzczNSZvd25lcnR5cGU9ZmFpciZicmFuZF9pZD0wJnJlcXNpZz0xNDM0NDU4NDE2LTEwZWYyNGEzMDdiZDMyY2NkNzUyMGRkYmNkZTU0MmFiMTQ2NzUxNTI -- Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org Wed Jun 17 21:20:25 2015 From: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org (Richard Mahoney) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 15 09:20:25 +1200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_[N=C4=81ge=C5=9Ba_Bha=E1=B9=AD=E1=B9=ADa_-_P=C4=81ta=C3=B1jalayogas=C5=ABtrav=E1=B9=9Btti]_Fwd:_requesting_contacts_of_Bihar_and_Orissa_Research_Society?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5581E499.1070009@indica-et-buddhica.org> Dear Colleagues, This arrived overnight. If anyone is able to help could you please mail: Rocco Cestola Kind regards, Richard -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: requesting contacts of Bihar and Orissa Research Society Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:31:12 +0200 From: Rocco Cestola To: contact at indica-et-buddhica.com My name is Rocco Cestola and i'ma PhD candidate of the University of Roma "La Sapienza". My research topic is based on establish a critical edition of a work ascribed to N?ge?a Bha??a entitled "P?ta?jalayogas?trav?tti". Consulting the New Catalogus Catalogorum I've discovered that a manuscript of this text is referred in a Catalogue edited by the Bihar and Orissa Research Society, Patna. The New Catalogus Catalogorum reports this information: A Descriptive Catalogue of Manuscripts in Mithil?, published by the Bihar and Orissa Research Society, Patna I'm kindly request, if it might be possible, to receive informations and, accordingly, contacts regards the mentioned Institute where the manuscript is located. with immense gratitude and with best regards Rocco Cestola -- Richard Mahoney Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ M: +64-21-064-0216 T: +64-3-312-1699 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 488 bytes Desc: not available URL: From veerankp at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 02:42:40 2015 From: veerankp at gmail.com (Veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 15 08:12:40 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: <5580A6A2.9070008@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Thanks recognizing it and links for new paper. We are open for it On Jun 17, 2015 4:14 AM, "Luis Gonzalez-Reimann" wrote: > Dear all, > > As part of this thread, the clear differences between the IVC and the > culture of the *Rg Veda* have been briefly mentioned. Veeranarayana > Pandurangi brought up another issue, the genetic evidence regarding the > entrance of peoples into India during the Rgvedic period. He attached an > article (Metspalu et al.) which, he said, "disproves the influx of people > into India." > > In a new article called "Population Genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia > (Allentoft et al.)," published in *Nature* only five day ago, the authors > conclude that their "analyses support that migrations during the Early > Bronze Age is a probable scenario for the spread of Indo-European > languages." This goes in the opposite direction of the article by Metspalu > et al., and gives strong genetic support to the notion of an influx into > the Sub Continent between 3000-1000 BCE. The authors of the new article > used a very large data set for their study. > > Here is the abstract. > > The Bronze Age of Eurasia (around 3000?1000 BC) was a period of major > cultural changes. However, there is debate about whether these changes > resulted from the circulation of ideas or from human migrations, > potentially also facilitating the spread of languages and certain > phenotypic traits. We investigated this by using new, improved methods to > sequence low-coverage genomes from 101 ancient humans from across Eurasia. > We show that the Bronze Age was a highly dynamic period involving > large-scale population migrations and replacements, responsible for shaping > major parts of present-day demographic structure in both Europe and Asia. > Our findings are consistent with the hypothesized spread of Indo-European > languages during the Early Bronze Age. We also demonstrate that light skin > pigmentation in Europeans was already present at high frequency in the > Bronze Age, but not lactose tolerance, indicating a more recent onset of > positive selection on lactose tolerance than previously thought. > And this is the link to the article: > > http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/pdf/nature14507.pdf > > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 07:21:04 2015 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 15 09:21:04 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Those interested in the topiv of the IE-Homeland may find the Article ?The Indo-European Homeland fromLinguistic and Archaeological Perspectives ? by David W. Anthony and Don Ringe relevant. Abstract: ?Archaeological evidence and linguistic evidence converge in support of an origin of Indo-European languages on the Pontic-Caspian steppes around 4,000 years BCE. The evidence is so strong that arguments in support of other hypotheses should be reexamined". With kind regards, Philipp Maas 2015-06-18 4:42 GMT+02:00 Veeranarayana Pandurangi : > Thanks recognizing it and links for new paper. > We are open for it > On Jun 17, 2015 4:14 AM, "Luis Gonzalez-Reimann" > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> As part of this thread, the clear differences between the IVC and the >> culture of the *Rg Veda* have been briefly mentioned. Veeranarayana >> Pandurangi brought up another issue, the genetic evidence regarding the >> entrance of peoples into India during the Rgvedic period. He attached an >> article (Metspalu et al.) which, he said, "disproves the influx of people >> into India." >> >> In a new article called "Population Genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia >> (Allentoft et al.)," published in *Nature* only five day ago, the >> authors conclude that their "analyses support that migrations during the >> Early Bronze Age is a probable scenario for the spread of Indo-European >> languages." This goes in the opposite direction of the article by Metspalu >> et al., and gives strong genetic support to the notion of an influx into >> the Sub Continent between 3000-1000 BCE. The authors of the new article >> used a very large data set for their study. >> >> Here is the abstract. >> >> The Bronze Age of Eurasia (around 3000?1000 BC) was a period of major >> cultural changes. However, there is debate about whether these changes >> resulted from the circulation of ideas or from human migrations, >> potentially also facilitating the spread of languages and certain >> phenotypic traits. We investigated this by using new, improved methods to >> sequence low-coverage genomes from 101 ancient humans from across Eurasia. >> We show that the Bronze Age was a highly dynamic period involving >> large-scale population migrations and replacements, responsible for shaping >> major parts of present-day demographic structure in both Europe and Asia. >> Our findings are consistent with the hypothesized spread of Indo-European >> languages during the Early Bronze Age. We also demonstrate that light skin >> pigmentation in Europeans was already present at high frequency in the >> Bronze Age, but not lactose tolerance, indicating a more recent onset of >> positive selection on lactose tolerance than previously thought. >> And this is the link to the article: >> >> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/pdf/nature14507.pdf >> >> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Dr. Philipp A. Maas Universit?tsassistent Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Wien ?sterreich univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Thu Jun 18 07:57:38 2015 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 15 09:57:38 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4D451C20-EB0F-4683-8CC6-5549EB5FC418@uclouvain.be> On this mythological topic, probably much more (methodologically) relevant is the book by Jean-Paul DEMOULE, Mais o? sont pass?s les Indo-Europ?ens ? Le mythe d?origine de l?Occident, Paris, ?ditions du Seuil, 2014, 739 pp. Le 18 juin 2015 ? 09:21, Philipp Maas a ?crit : > Those interested in the topiv of the IE-Homeland may find the Article ?The Indo-European Homeland fromLinguistic and Archaeological Perspectives? by David W. Anthony and Don Ringe relevant. > > > Abstract: ?Archaeological evidence and linguistic evidence converge in support of an origin of Indo-European languages on the Pontic-Caspian steppes around 4,000 years BCE. The evidence is so strong that arguments in support of other hypotheses should be reexamined". > > > With kind regards, > > > Philipp Maas > > > 2015-06-18 4:42 GMT+02:00 Veeranarayana Pandurangi : > Thanks recognizing it and links for new paper. > We are open for it > > On Jun 17, 2015 4:14 AM, "Luis Gonzalez-Reimann" wrote: > Dear all, > > As part of this thread, the clear differences between the IVC and the culture of the Rg Veda have been briefly mentioned. Veeranarayana Pandurangi brought up another issue, the genetic evidence regarding the entrance of peoples into India during the Rgvedic period. He attached an article (Metspalu et al.) which, he said, "disproves the influx of people into India." > > In a new article called "Population Genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia (Allentoft et al.)," published in Nature only five day ago, the authors conclude that their "analyses support that migrations during the Early Bronze Age is a probable scenario for the spread of Indo-European languages." This goes in the opposite direction of the article by Metspalu et al., and gives strong genetic support to the notion of an influx into the Sub Continent between 3000-1000 BCE. The authors of the new article used a very large data set for their study. > > Here is the abstract. > The Bronze Age of Eurasia (around 3000?1000 BC) was a period of major cultural changes. However, there is debate about whether these changes resulted from the circulation of ideas or from human migrations, potentially also facilitating the spread of languages and certain phenotypic traits. We investigated this by using new, improved methods to sequence low-coverage genomes from 101 ancient humans from across Eurasia. We show that the Bronze Age was a highly dynamic period involving large-scale population migrations and replacements, responsible for shaping major parts of present-day demographic structure in both Europe and Asia. Our findings are consistent with the hypothesized spread of Indo-European languages during the Early Bronze Age. We also demonstrate that light skin pigmentation in Europeans was already present at high frequency in the Bronze Age, but not lactose tolerance, indicating a more recent onset of positive selection on lactose tolerance than previously thought. > > And this is the link to the article: > > http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/pdf/nature14507.pdf > > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Dr. Philipp A. Maas > Universit?tsassistent > Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde > Universit?t Wien > Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 > A-1090 Wien > ?sterreich > univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 10:24:00 2015 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 15 15:54:00 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) Message-ID: indology at list.indology.info 18. 06.15 Dear Colleagues, This not a discussion on the IVC and the Aryans and the invasion theory, I just draw attention to a few bibliographical deficiencies that struck me. If I am not mistaken ? that because of the vast amount of literature posted here - I did not find any reference to or discussion on H.P.Francfort in *Frontiers of the Indus civilization* (1984:301-310), J-C. Gardin ?L?arch?ologie du paysage bactrien? : pp,480-501, *Comptes rendus de l?academie des inscriptions, *Paris :480-501, Bertille Lyonnet ?Decouverte de sites de l??ge du bronze dans le N.E. de l?Afghanistan : leurs rapports avec la civilisation de l?Indus? in *Annali dell ?Istituto Orientale di Napoli *Vol.37 1977: 19-35. These did not at all refer to the Aryans or any race theory but announced startling discoveries on the IVC. My personal view is that they may throw light on the RV description of V?tra?s killing without reference to invasion. ?GARDIN 1980 speaks of the extensive irrigation system developed in the very same region in the third millennium BC. The peculiarity of the system originated in pebbles depositing in the riverbed of the Kokcha, a tributary of the Oxus, and raising its water level. This necessitated the construction of high-level canals in the lowest slopes of the mountains where they were cut out from the river. G ARDIN naturally thinks that the deposit of pebbles formed in the riverbed in a natural process. But that could also be a deliberate act for maintaining a stable source of water throughout the year. In that case the obstruction would reduce the water-level of the Kokcha river and also of the Oxus. Now, the heroic feat of Indra most remembered in the ?gveda is the destruction of the serpent that obstructed the flow of water. Cf. RV 1.32.1-2 : ?I proclaim the heroic feats of Indra, the first ones the wielder of the thunderbolt did. He killed the serpent, then let out the water and broke the flanks of the mountains. He killed the serpent lying in the mountain, Tva??? shaped the resounding thunderbolt for him. Like cows lowing (for the calf), the flowing waters at once went down towards the sea.? For those living downstream the pebble-deposits in the Kokcha in the lower slopes of the mountains would be undesired obstruction against the availability of water. One may consider if the said adventures of Indra could have anything to do with that. Could it be that Aryan adventures near the Oxus are alluded to in the ?gveda? That comes close to what KOSAMBI(1956:75) had surmised on a different ground.? The above understanding is of an indirect clash and the destruction of a civilizations?s base by migrants but not necessarily a purposeful invasion. It appeared to me that the F.R.Allchin and F.B.J. Kuiper had somewhat inclined to these ideas. But I might be wrong. The citation is from a 2004 paper by me. I should add that the post-2004 writings made me rethink on a few points but that did not result in any new publication. Though Gardin and the other authors spoke of IVC connection on the basis of similar ceramic industries convincing evidence of trade/water-resource connection is required. The affairs in Afghanistan destroyed many possibilities. And since I am no authority on the subject there is no insistence of any kind that my views should have great worth. I request forgiveness if the points have already been considered in the forum. Best wishes Dipak Bhattacharya -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 11:03:05 2015 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 15 07:03:05 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] politics of ICHR In-Reply-To: <448672157.181291404.1434565180326.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Message-ID: I myself am not walking into this swamp. George On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 2:19 PM, wrote: > > Dear listfolk, > > > Since this topic seems to be still with us, a few mises ? point. I won't > mention any names (almost), they are not important, but the topics are. > > 1) Dileep Chakravarty is correctly quoted as lambasting Delhi University's > Sanskrit Professor Bharadwaj for wanting to research the exact chronology > of the Vedas and pleading his case in terms of "Aryan" history. But then, > Chakravarty is assumed to consider the "Aryan" controversy as old hat. Also > true. But, having heard Chakravarty speak several times, I was under the > impression that he is one of the numerous Indian historians and > (especially) archaeologists who don't believe in an "Aryan" invasion. And > "old hat" here means something else than what many think. The present > lambasting of any further "Aryan" research is typical of a school of > thought (best exemplified by the notorious NS Rajaram, who lambasted > Talageri and myself for even treating the debate as still worth pursuing) > that asserts the debate has finished years ago and that the > anti-invasionist school has won it fair and square. In India, the main > debate is not between invasionists and nativists (though that is there too) > but between those who dig for new and finally clinching arguments, and > those who think the invasion has been definitively disproven years ago. > > 2) A genetic study is quoted as proving the invasion. In fact, the study > proves far less, and after the technical research within their domain, the > scholars in their conclusion suddenly bring in the presently predominant > theory of Indo-European expansion that they have vaguely heard about. This > mismatch between technical genetical research and the general conclusion > mediated by non-comprehending and often partisan journalists is common and > is the reason why I myself have relied on this research as little as > possible until it has completely matured. But anyway, the latest genetic > publications are pertinent -- and do not prove the invasion at all. This is > a serious debate and perhaps too voluminous for this forum, but let me go > into one example. As has been quoted here, lactose tolerance was imported > in Central and then Western Europe less than 5000 years ago from Ukraine. > This fits the picture of Indo-European invading from the East (as it does > in both the Russian and the Indian Homeland theories) and being brought by > cowherds, colourfully illustrated by the common etymology of "daughter" as > literally meaning "milkmaid". But this should be linked with another recent > genetic study to which an Italian Indologist drew my attention: it argues > that the cows in Ukraine are genetically shown to descend partly from > Indian cows, not the otherway around as the invasion scenario would imply. > Cows don't hang out on top of the Hindu Kush unless humans ake them there, > so this genetic mother-and-daughter relation is only possible if cowherds > took their cattle across the Khyber Pass -- and this turns out to have been > an India-to-Russia movement. > > 3) The proposed research was into the chronology of the Vedic texts. This > is an entirely justified project, as a correct chronology is crucial in > historiography. When scholars write things like "Katha Upanishad (600 BC)", > I always wonder: How does he know? The foundation of the chronology given > in textbook is very shaky,and certainly not based on any timing given in > the texts themselves. One of the very few secure keys is the astronomical > indications in the texts themselves. There are only few, but they are all > consistent (reproducing the relative chronology of the texts based on other > criteria) and they consistently point to a moderately higher chronology > than that implied in and compatible with the invasion theory (though not to > the wildly high chronology proposed by some Hindu writers). Not a single > astronomical datum supports the low chronology taught in the textbooks. The > clearest and most indisputable example is of course the Vedanga Jyotisha, > which dates itself in two different ways at two different places to ca. > 1350 BC, though it is defitely a post-Vedic text conventionally dated to > 500 BC at most. For a scholar, the normal course of conduct would be, not > immediately to drop all conventional chronology, but at least to seriously > research this question, rather than lambast those who choose to do this > research as "morons", "racists" and worse (to borrow terms used by one of > the professors on this forum). > > 4) For those who demonize the Indian homeland theory because of its > alleged political connotations, please consider these aspects: a) A theory > may be correct even if held for reprehensible reasons, such as, according > to many, Hindu nationalism. Indeed, most of you assume as much, because you > people advocate a non-Indian homeland theory also espoused by the Nazis. > Indeed, for the Nazis, the Aryan invasion theory (which most of you > advocate in spite of clothing it in weasel words like "migration" instead > of "invasion") was the illustration par excellence of their racial view: it > has a dynamic race invade the country of an indolent race, it has a > superior race try to guard its racial purity with the caste system, it has > the superior race still partly mixing with the natives and thereby becoming > inferior to their purer cousins, the British. Much of this was a Nazi > interpretation, to be sure, but it was based on a scenario essentially the > same as what you espouse, viz. a non-Indian homeland necessitating an > intrusion into India to explain the presence of IE languages there. So, if > you assume the same scenario as the Nazi assumed for specifically nazi > reasons, and optimistically presumng you are not Nazis yourselves, you > clearly reason that a theory can be correct eventhough the motives why some > have espoused it, were/are reprehensible. So, your assumption the the > Indian homeland theory has political connotations, does not imply that the > theory is wrong. b) Your confident assumptions about the political miss out > on many facts on the ground. Shrikant Talageri (The Rigveda, a Historical > Analysis, 2000) and myself (Asterisk in Bharopiyasthan, 2007) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Fri Jun 19 04:01:18 2015 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 15 04:01:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] politics of ICHR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1882149547.1672939.1434686478717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sadly this is the common response. While I understand that people have other projects they are busy with, this era in India is very crucial and there are still many unresolved issues even if one is not interested in the AMT/OIT debate per se. Unfortunately, there appears to be no place where these issues are discussed so we end up with two camps not communicating with each other. Thus all kinds of unsubstantiated claims remain unvetted by qualified scholars. Concernedly yours, Dean Anderson From: George Thompson To: koenraad.elst at telenet.be Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] politics of ICHR I myself am not walking into this swamp. George -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grimessm at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 06:49:10 2015 From: grimessm at gmail.com (Sam Grimes) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 15 07:49:10 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 29, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: enjoy da cruise On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 5:00 PM, wrote: > Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to > indology at list.indology.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > indology-request at list.indology.info > > You can reach the person managing the list at > indology-owner at list.indology.info > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the > IHRC (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) > 2. Re: Article about the politics surrounding indology at the > IHRC (George Thompson) > 3. Re: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name (Nagaraj Paturi) > 4. Re: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name (Nagaraj Paturi) > 5. request (Dan Lusthaus) > 6. request (Nagaraj Paturi) > 7. Re: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name (Arlo Griffiths) > 8. Re: request (Dan Lusthaus) > 9. Re: request (Dan Lusthaus) > 10. Re: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name (Dominik Wujastyk) > 11. Re: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name (Valerie Roebuck) > 12. Re: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name (Christophe Vielle) > 13. Re: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name (Jonathan Silk) > 14. Re: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name (Dominik Wujastyk) > 15. Re: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name (Simon Brodbeck) > 16. Re: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name (Patrick Olivelle) > 17. Re: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name (Shyam Ranganathan) > 18. Re: prof. or mr. or mrs. or ms. etc first name (Dominik Wujastyk) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 15:43:46 -0700 > From: Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > To: indology at list.indology.info > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding > indology at the IHRC > Message-ID: <5580A6A2.9070008 at berkeley.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed" > > Dear all, > > As part of this thread, the clear differences between the IVC and the > culture of the /Rg Veda/ have been briefly mentioned. Veeranarayana > Pandurangi brought up another issue, the genetic evidence regarding the > entrance of peoples into India during the Rgvedic period. He attached an > article (Metspalu et al.) which, he said, "disproves the influx of > people into India." > > In a new article called "Population Genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia > (Allentoft et al.)," published in /Nature/ only five day ago, the > authors conclude that their "analyses support that migrations during the > Early Bronze Age is a probable scenario for the spread of Indo-European > languages." This goes in the opposite direction of the article by > Metspalu et al., and gives strong genetic support to the notion of an > influx into the Sub Continent between 3000-1000 BCE. The authors of the > new article used a very large data set for their study. > > Here is the abstract. > > The Bronze Age of Eurasia (around 3000?1000 BC) was a period of major > cultural changes. However, there is debate about whether these changes > resulted from the circulation of ideas or from human migrations, > potentially also facilitating the spread of languages and certain > phenotypic traits. We investigated this by using new, improved methods > to sequence low-coverage genomes from 101 ancient humans from across > Eurasia. We show that the Bronze Age was a highly dynamic period > involving large-scale population migrations and replacements, > responsible for shaping major parts of present-day demographic structure > in both Europe and Asia. Our findings are consistent with the > hypothesized spread of Indo-European languages during the Early Bronze > Age. We also demonstrate that light skin pigmentation in Europeans was > already present at high frequency in the Bronze Age, but not lactose > tolerance, indicating a more recent onset of positive selection on > lactose tolerance than previously thought. > > And this is the link to the article: > > http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/pdf/nature14507.pdf > > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de Fri Jun 19 15:37:14 2015 From: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de (Julia Hegewald) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 15 17:37:14 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication announcement: Jaina painting and manuscript culture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0CC1FC6A-BE4D-446A-BB45-89919D76B27B@uni-bonn.de> Dear colleagues and friends, I would like to draw your attention to my latest publication Jaina Painting and Manuscript Culture: In Memory of Paolo Pianarosa which has just been published by EB-Verlag in Berlin at the price of 78,- Euros. It is a hardcover book with 421 pages and colour illustrations throughout. It has been published in the series Studies in Asian Art and Culture (SAAC). Please find below a table of contents of the book and attached a flyer and order form for the book. I would be delighted if you would draw the attention of interested scholars and institutions to this new publication on Jaina illustrated manuscripts and paintings. with best wishes, Julia. Table of Contents Preface Chapter 1 Introduction: Jaina Manuscript Culture and the Pianarosa Library in Bonn Julia A. B. Hegewald Chapter 2 Studying Jainism: Life and Library of Paolo Pianarosa, Turin Tiziana Ripepi Chapter 3 The Multiple Meanings of Manuscripts in Jaina Art and Sacred Space Julia A. B. Hegewald Chapter 4 Jaina Paintings and Manuscripts in the Victoria and Albert Museum Nick Barnard Chapter 5 Cultural Cache Nachiket Chanchani Chapter 6 Cause and Effect: Illustrating the Pa?cakaly??aka Robert J. Del Bont? Chapter 7 Illustrations from a Bh?p?lacauv?s?k?vyabh???rtha Manuscript Patrick F. Kr?ger Chapter 8 Narratives, Visuals, Performances: Manuscripts of Jaina Stories in Vernaculars Nalini Balbir Chapter 9 Illustrated Jaina Collections in the British Library Jennifer Howes Chapter 10 Reading ?atru?jaya Pa?as as Mnemonics: Performing Mental Pilgrimages of Devotion (Bh?va Y?tr?) Andrea Luithle-Hardenberg Chapter 11 Colossi and Lotus Feet: Pa??itas and Bha???rakas in the North Indian Digambara Legacy Eva De Clercq and Tillo Detige Chapter 12 The Transmission of the Devotional Songs of ?nandghan Imre Bangha Glossary List of Plates Notes on Contributors Index P.S. In case the attached flyer can?t be sent via the list, then please send me an email and I will forward it to you. (P.S. Also just appeared in this series is SAAC vol. 2 by Tiziana Lorenzetti, Understanding the Hindu Temple: History, Symbols and Forms). Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald Professorin f?r Orientalische Kunstgeschichte Abteilungsleiterin Universit?t Bonn Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften (IOA) Abteilung f?r Asiatische und Islamische Kunstgeschichte Adenauerallee 10 D ? 53113 Bonn Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de www.aik.uni-bonn.de Tel. 0228-73 7213 Fax. 0228-73 4042 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SAAC_3_Flyer_Hegewald_gesamt.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 931481 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Sat Jun 20 01:36:36 2015 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 15 01:36:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: <4D451C20-EB0F-4683-8CC6-5549EB5FC418@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: <782C1974-A32D-4506-82EF-135AC2F589A4@illinois.edu> To judge from the blurb of the book, this is one of those facile attempts to attack an entire field without offering any theory worth its salt that could take the place of theory informing the field. And again, like many such attempts it erases all kinds of ?pesky details?, including the fact that August Wilhelm Pott, who made major contributions to the development of Indo-European comparative phonology, also wrote a detailed rebuttal to Gobineau?s racist mythology of Aryan superiority. (Poliakov didn?t get that right either.) The people who sinned most in turning Indo-European linguistics into a foil for racist claims of Aryan superiority were not linguists but cultural-studies intellectuals, including Gobineau and Chamberlain, and it is these people that Hitler considered his intellectual ancestors. It is interesting to note that Uriel Weinreich, in his (deservedly) angry Hitler?s professors, cites Eduard Hermann as complaining that German Indo-Europeanists failed to take advantage of the great opportunities that Nazism (supposedly) provided them. ?nuff said. Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Jun 2015, at 02:57, Christophe Vielle > wrote: On this mythological topic, probably much more (methodologically) relevant is the book by Jean-Paul DEMOULE, Mais o? sont pass?s les Indo-Europ?ens ? Le mythe d?origine de l?Occident, Paris, ?ditions du Seuil, 2014, 739 pp. Le 18 juin 2015 ? 09:21, Philipp Maas > a ?crit : Those interested in the topiv of the IE-Homeland may find the Article ?The Indo-European Homeland fromLinguistic and Archaeological Perspectives? by David W. Anthony and Don Ringe relevant. Abstract: ?Archaeological evidence and linguistic evidence converge in support of an origin of Indo-European languages on the Pontic-Caspian steppes around 4,000 years BCE. The evidence is so strong that arguments in support of other hypotheses should be reexamined". With kind regards, Philipp Maas 2015-06-18 4:42 GMT+02:00 Veeranarayana Pandurangi >: Thanks recognizing it and links for new paper. We are open for it On Jun 17, 2015 4:14 AM, "Luis Gonzalez-Reimann" > wrote: Dear all, As part of this thread, the clear differences between the IVC and the culture of the Rg Veda have been briefly mentioned. Veeranarayana Pandurangi brought up another issue, the genetic evidence regarding the entrance of peoples into India during the Rgvedic period. He attached an article (Metspalu et al.) which, he said, "disproves the influx of people into India." In a new article called "Population Genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia (Allentoft et al.)," published in Nature only five day ago, the authors conclude that their "analyses support that migrations during the Early Bronze Age is a probable scenario for the spread of Indo-European languages." This goes in the opposite direction of the article by Metspalu et al., and gives strong genetic support to the notion of an influx into the Sub Continent between 3000-1000 BCE. The authors of the new article used a very large data set for their study. Here is the abstract. The Bronze Age of Eurasia (around 3000?1000 BC) was a period of major cultural changes. However, there is debate about whether these changes resulted from the circulation of ideas or from human migrations, potentially also facilitating the spread of languages and certain phenotypic traits. We investigated this by using new, improved methods to sequence low-coverage genomes from 101 ancient humans from across Eurasia. We show that the Bronze Age was a highly dynamic period involving large-scale population migrations and replacements, responsible for shaping major parts of present-day demographic structure in both Europe and Asia. Our findings are consistent with the hypothesized spread of Indo-European languages during the Early Bronze Age. We also demonstrate that light skin pigmentation in Europeans was already present at high frequency in the Bronze Age, but not lactose tolerance, indicating a more recent onset of positive selection on lactose tolerance than previously thought. And this is the link to the article: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/pdf/nature14507.pdf Luis Gonzalez-Reimann _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr. Philipp A. Maas Universit?tsassistent Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Wien ?sterreich univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Sat Jun 20 01:41:01 2015 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 15 01:41:01 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2A39B464-296B-4F8D-8933-D2266F5BDC43@illinois.edu> The article referred to is interesting and will no doubt lead to a lively exchange. However, the closest the article comes to areas farther east is the Afanasevo culture in Central Asia, to the north of present-day Xinjiang. (Evidently, the authors did not or were not able to draw on palaeogenomic evidence from South Asia. Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 17 Jun 2015, at 21:42, Veeranarayana Pandurangi > wrote: Thanks recognizing it and links for new paper. We are open for it On Jun 17, 2015 4:14 AM, "Luis Gonzalez-Reimann" > wrote: Dear all, As part of this thread, the clear differences between the IVC and the culture of the Rg Veda have been briefly mentioned. Veeranarayana Pandurangi brought up another issue, the genetic evidence regarding the entrance of peoples into India during the Rgvedic period. He attached an article (Metspalu et al.) which, he said, "disproves the influx of people into India." In a new article called "Population Genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia (Allentoft et al.)," published in Nature only five day ago, the authors conclude that their "analyses support that migrations during the Early Bronze Age is a probable scenario for the spread of Indo-European languages." This goes in the opposite direction of the article by Metspalu et al., and gives strong genetic support to the notion of an influx into the Sub Continent between 3000-1000 BCE. The authors of the new article used a very large data set for their study. Here is the abstract. The Bronze Age of Eurasia (around 3000?1000 BC) was a period of major cultural changes. However, there is debate about whether these changes resulted from the circulation of ideas or from human migrations, potentially also facilitating the spread of languages and certain phenotypic traits. We investigated this by using new, improved methods to sequence low-coverage genomes from 101 ancient humans from across Eurasia. We show that the Bronze Age was a highly dynamic period involving large-scale population migrations and replacements, responsible for shaping major parts of present-day demographic structure in both Europe and Asia. Our findings are consistent with the hypothesized spread of Indo-European languages during the Early Bronze Age. We also demonstrate that light skin pigmentation in Europeans was already present at high frequency in the Bronze Age, but not lactose tolerance, indicating a more recent onset of positive selection on lactose tolerance than previously thought. And this is the link to the article: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/pdf/nature14507.pdf Luis Gonzalez-Reimann _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Sat Jun 20 09:48:35 2015 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 15 11:48:35 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: <782C1974-A32D-4506-82EF-135AC2F589A4@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <1ADFD4B3-1CE0-4903-BD0C-F9B095D77A5A@uclouvain.be> Maybe read the book... To comment on the basis of a "blurb" or to stress on details or anecdotes taken from the historiographical parts is not the best (/ fairest) manner to present this epistemological work, written by a very serious archaeologist (specialist of the Neolithic period, like Renfrew). His main point is precisely the problem of circularity of the arguments (linguistic + archaeological + genetics) which can be used for hypothesis (or "scenarios") as numerous/different as there are specialists imagining/reconstructing the proto-history beyond the (linguistic / archaeological / genetic) facts. What is the "entire field" you talk about, what is the "theory informing the field" ? If it is the idea/postulate of a single proto-language "mother" and its sub- proto-languages "daughters" and the subsequent idea of one "proto-people" "father" and its sub- proto-peoples "sons", this is, I think, a very mythical idea which pollutes the scientific explanation of the complex Eurasian prehistory, which one deserves an interdisciplinary approach without such a priori. As I have methodologically argued elsewhere (with the Indo-European and Semitic linguist Guy Jucquois, within a monograph... of the Journal of Indo-European Studies [1997]), referring to Meillet (i-e * forms are not prototypes, viz. items belonging to some mother-tongue, but the sum of the observed correspondances - metatypes one could say), Trubetzkoy (why beyond the observable antique dialectal diversity should it be postulated the simplicity/unity, etc.) and Pisani inter alios, the Indo-European (like other) comparative linguistics does not need of an "ultimate" oversimple explanation for working. To mistake on the nature of its results is detrimental to the whole field of Indo-European comparativism. The AITheory is the result of an illusion (and the OITheory an ideological reaction thereagainst - note that an early version of the latter can already be found in Andr? de Paniagua, Les temps h?ro?ques : ?tude pr?historique d'apr?s les origines indo-europ?ennes, Paris : E. Leroux, 1901: https://archive.org/details/lestempshroques00panigoog - nihil novi sub sole). Best wishes, Le 20 juin 2015 ? 03:36, Hock, Hans Henrich a ?crit : > To judge from the blurb of the book, this is one of those facile attempts to attack an entire field without offering any theory worth its salt that could take the place of theory informing the field. And again, like many such attempts it erases all kinds of ?pesky details?, including the fact that August Wilhelm Pott, who made major contributions to the development of Indo-European comparative phonology, also wrote a detailed rebuttal to Gobineau?s racist mythology of Aryan superiority. (Poliakov didn?t get that right either.) > > The people who sinned most in turning Indo-European linguistics into a foil for racist claims of Aryan superiority were not linguists but cultural-studies intellectuals, including Gobineau and Chamberlain, and it is these people that Hitler considered his intellectual ancestors. It is interesting to note that Uriel Weinreich, in his (deservedly) angry Hitler?s professors, cites Eduard Hermann as complaining that German Indo-Europeanists failed to take advantage of the great opportunities that Nazism (supposedly) provided them. > > ?nuff said. > > Hans Henrich Hock > > > > On 18 Jun 2015, at 02:57, Christophe Vielle wrote: > >> On this mythological topic, probably much more (methodologically) relevant is the book by Jean-Paul DEMOULE, Mais o? sont pass?s les Indo-Europ?ens ? Le mythe d?origine de l?Occident, Paris, ?ditions du Seuil, 2014, 739 pp. >> >> Le 18 juin 2015 ? 09:21, Philipp Maas a ?crit : >> >>> Those interested in the topiv of the IE-Homeland may find the Article ?The Indo-European Homeland fromLinguistic and Archaeological Perspectives? by David W. Anthony and Don Ringe relevant. >>> >>> >>> Abstract: ?Archaeological evidence and linguistic evidence converge in support of an origin of Indo-European languages on the Pontic-Caspian steppes around 4,000 years BCE. The evidence is so strong that arguments in support of other hypotheses should be reexamined". >>> >>> >>> With kind regards, >>> >>> >>> Philipp Maas >>> >>> >>> 2015-06-18 4:42 GMT+02:00 Veeranarayana Pandurangi : >>> Thanks recognizing it and links for new paper. >>> We are open for it >>> >>> On Jun 17, 2015 4:14 AM, "Luis Gonzalez-Reimann" wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> >>> As part of this thread, the clear differences between the IVC and the culture of the Rg Veda have been briefly mentioned. Veeranarayana Pandurangi brought up another issue, the genetic evidence regarding the entrance of peoples into India during the Rgvedic period. He attached an article (Metspalu et al.) which, he said, "disproves the influx of people into India." >>> >>> In a new article called "Population Genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia (Allentoft et al.)," published in Nature only five day ago, the authors conclude that their "analyses support that migrations during the Early Bronze Age is a probable scenario for the spread of Indo-European languages." This goes in the opposite direction of the article by Metspalu et al., and gives strong genetic support to the notion of an influx into the Sub Continent between 3000-1000 BCE. The authors of the new article used a very large data set for their study. >>> >>> Here is the abstract. >>> The Bronze Age of Eurasia (around 3000?1000 BC) was a period of major cultural changes. However, there is debate about whether these changes resulted from the circulation of ideas or from human migrations, potentially also facilitating the spread of languages and certain phenotypic traits. We investigated this by using new, improved methods to sequence low-coverage genomes from 101 ancient humans from across Eurasia. We show that the Bronze Age was a highly dynamic period involving large-scale population migrations and replacements, responsible for shaping major parts of present-day demographic structure in both Europe and Asia. Our findings are consistent with the hypothesized spread of Indo-European languages during the Early Bronze Age. We also demonstrate that light skin pigmentation in Europeans was already present at high frequency in the Bronze Age, but not lactose tolerance, indicating a more recent onset of positive selection on lactose tolerance than previously thought. >>> >>> And this is the link to the article: >>> >>> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/pdf/nature14507.pdf >>> >>> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr. Philipp A. Maas >>> Universit?tsassistent >>> Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde >>> Universit?t Wien >>> Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 >>> A-1090 Wien >>> ?sterreich >>> univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> ??????????????????? >> Christophe Vielle >> Louvain-la-Neuve >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 15:20:38 2015 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 15 08:20:38 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A course on "The Word and the World" or ancient Indian analytic philosophy Message-ID: <59EE49C0-7604-4463-A66B-CBE3242DB52A@gmail.com> The enrolment limit for the course about which I circulated information earlier has been increased by 15. Applications will be accepted until 05 July. I would greatly appreciate your help in giving publicity to the availability of the course and the new enrolment limit and deadline. Thanks. a.a. Earlier email reproduced: >From 13-25 July, 2015, I will team-teach a course on the place of language in Indian intellectual tradition at Veliyanad, Kerala, India. Analytical or linguistically oriented philosophy will naturally constitute a major part of the course, and, even in that part, Bhart?-hari?s V?kyapad?ya will occupy the centre-stage as the oldest accessible and extensive work fitting the bill. Interactions of Buddhist and Jain thinkers with Brahmanical thinkers will also figure to a significant extent. The course is open to college and university students as well as faculty from various disciplines. Detailed information about it can be had by following the links http://mu-cif.chinfo.org/summerschool2015.html and http://mu-cif.chinfo.org/img/course outline.pdf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From koenraad.elst at telenet.be Sat Jun 20 15:38:55 2015 From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 15 17:38:55 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] politics of ICHR In-Reply-To: <1882149547.1672939.1434686478717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2124081230.188368971.1434814735364.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Dear listfolk, ? One scholar says about the Homeland debate: "I myself am not walking into this swamp." Understandable, because in the past, the debate has often been characterized by bitter acrimony and laughable instances of being "under-informed but over-opinionated". But that ought not to be a reason ad aeternam?to give up on?the debate, the outcome of which is in every respect highly consequential for the history of Indian thought and institutions. ? Another scholar comments: ""Sadly this is the common response. While I understand that people have other projects they are busy with, this era in India is very crucial and there are still many unresolved issues even if one is not interested in the AMT/OIT debate per se. Unfortunately, there appears to be no place where these issues are discussed so we end up with two camps not communicating with each other. Thus all kinds of unsubstantiated claims remain unvetted by qualified scholars." ? Well, we might close up the debate for now and not communicate for another while,-- but withdraw into our studies to at least acquaint ourselves with the other side?s case, which is now easy to google. On the Indocentric side, that would imply a primary course of comparative-historical linguistics, not studied in India at all and held in contempt by NS Rajaram?as "a pseudo-science". It is generally assumed by friend and foe that linguistics implies and has prove the Aryan Invasion Theory, whch is the reason why Hindu anti-invasionists think they have to reject linguistics as well. However, I am not convinced by the linguistic case for the AIT, and in my opinion, believers in the Indian homeland have nothing to fear from linguistics. ? In the AIT camp, by contrast, the need of the hour is first of all to get to know the Out-of-India case. In IE conferences in Europe, I have found that many scholars have not even heard of India's homeland candidacy. To them, the "homeland debate" means the choice between the Pontic and the Anatolian theory. Those who have heard of it, mostly have also heard of its knee-deep immersion in politics, viz. Hindu nationalism (though they are not troubled by the neck-deep immersion of the AIT in politics, including Dravidianism and Ambedkarism in India till today, and in the past also British colonialism and National-Socialism), and find this enough reason not to get involved in it.?The few who are actively involved in the debate, mostly deal with the many amateurs whose outpourings you find on the internet, and understandably don?t think very high of them and of the theory they are defending. However, to win a debate not for the gallery and the ignorant public, but at the scholarly level, it woud be better to address the opposing theory not in its weakest but in its strongest expression. ? One relevant fact has been pointed out by another participant scholar here:?"I just draw attention to a few bibliographical deficiencies that struck me. If I am not mistaken, that is because of the vast amount of literature posted"? Yes, that must be the reason: too many other reading responsibilities. Understandable, but at any rate, the result is "bibliographical deficiencies". Among those Indian archaeologists at the Delhi conference end of March, I heard a few specialists enumerate the mistakes in David Anthony's work. Archaeology is not my field, but at least, I have the impression that we should not be over-awed by the assurance given here by a philologist that Anthony, together with Ringe, has given unassailable proof for the Pontic-Caspian homeland. As a matter of "bibliographical deficiency", I note the absence from the debate of works on the archaeologically attested solid continuity of Indian civilization before and after Harappa, such as by the Frenchman Michel Danino: The Lost River. On the Trail of the Saraswati. At the Delhi conference, he enumerated the mistakes in the archaeological case for the Aryan invasion, to the approval of his colleagues in the audience. At an IE conference in Louvain-la-Neuve in 2013, his book was mentioned by a famous French scholar during an award acceptance speech: "Of course I will not read the book itself, as it is all wrong anyway." This is typical for a general attitude of stonewalling, on both sides. Having a foot in both worlds, I am amazed to see how many scholars are just not curious about what is being said on the other side of the fence.? Two books which you guys are well equipped to read, are the philological works of Shrikant Talageri, which are far better and vastly more original than his outsider status would let you assume. Status-conscious people may of course choose to ignore his work, but scholars pursuing knowledge are making a grave mistake if they want to form an opinion on the homeland question without acquainting themselves with his arguments. His book The Rigveda, a Historical Analysis, has only been reviewed by Michael Witzel, and Talageri has provided a detailed reply. His book The Rigveda and the Avesta, the Final Evidence, had been reviewed by Arnaud Fournet (and by myself), and again, Talageri has provided a detailed reply. Having just reread these books, I am convinced that they can keep AIT-minded scholars busy for some time, and risk changing their minds. For now, I will not comment on their contents. If you are not willing to spend any money on them, just google the videos in which he states his case orally: One last thing. Prof. BB Lal, the nonagenarian dean of Indian archaeology, and star of the Delhi conference, is usually lambasted as a ?Hindu nationalist? and therefore not to be taken seriously. I?d be careful with this attitude. First of all, he is not a Hindu nationalist in the sense of: someone who owes his professional and/or ideological position to the Sangh Parivar or the BJP, presently in power. This movement is the object of all kinds of vague and uninformed assumptions among Western India-watchers, and here is a case in point. Secondly, Lal was also lambasted 25 years ago for providing archaeological evidence for the then-controversial Rama temple in Ayodhya. Meanwhile, excavations and the Court verdict have proven him right ? and all his critics wrong. Massively lambasted, yet proven right. This may well happen with his anti-AIT stand. Lal made his name ca. 1960 by providing the long-sought-after archaeological proof of the Aryans moving into India: the Painted Grey Ware, supposedly typical of the invaders moving deeper into India?s interior. Till today, this ?proof? in quoted as authority in pro-AIT history books (e.g. Pradhan SV: The Elusive Aryans, 2014). I myself was taught this as proof ca. 1980 by Prof. Pierre Eggermont in Leuven University. However, Lal has reexamined his own case and found that in explaining his data, he was conditioned by his pre-given belief in the AIT. Examining the data with an unbiased eye, he found nothing pointing to a foreign origin, and much that indicated a local genesis. At the conference, he summed up his long-standing anti-AIT case as follows: ?Vedic culture and Harappan culture are two sides of the same coin.? Some will say, and have indeed said, that his ?conversion? took place under BJP influence. Among politicos engaged in a barroom discussion, this would be a clinching argument; among scholars, who keep in mind the difference between the motive for and the contents of someone?s conviction, this would be perfectly inconsequential, even if it were true. Anyway, at that time, Lal was already fin-de-carri?re and could speak freely without expecting anything from politicians. Moreover, the BJP was very much in the opposition and the object of an enormous hate campaign in the public sphere worldwide. A public intellectual associating in any way with the BJP had nothing to expect except ostracism and calumny,-- and these indeed are still being directed against Lal till today, though less so since the BJP is in power. If a scholar was knowingly prepared to risk this treatment, it was because he was convinced of his case. This way, the prominent Out-of-India scholars are typically ?converts? from the AIT: this also counts e.g. for the Greek Sanskritist Nicholas Kazanas (do read his 2015 book on Indo-European), who used to teach the AIT himself. It also counts for myself: I know how it feels to start doubting the seemingly well-established certainties of the AIT. Of course, the anecdotal fact of someone?s ?conversion? is no proof for the rightness of either his present or his past conviction. But heuristically, it might serve as an occasion for scholars to conceive the project of studying the issue more closely. In this case, it would be welcome if scholars understood at last that there is?here a real debate here, with genuine arguments on both sides. Not a querulous controversy that was won hands down by own?s own camp years ago and doesn?t need any treatment at all except snickering. Kind regards, ? Koenraad Elst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Sat Jun 20 16:13:09 2015 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 15 16:13:09 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC In-Reply-To: <1ADFD4B3-1CE0-4903-BD0C-F9B095D77A5A@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: Let me just focus on one issue, that of the Indo-European theory, that is, precisely, the theory that there was a (dialectally diversified) ancestral or proto-language from which the attested related Indo-European languages can be derived by changes that are observed elsewhere as possible, common, or natural in human languages. This is a theory in the scientific sense, in that the reconstructed proto-language and the postulated changes account for the similarities and differences between the related languages in a principled manner and thus explains them, rather than attributing them to accident (and thereby failing to explain why or how the Indo-European languages are markedly different from the members of other language families such as Afro-Asiatic or Uralic). Opinions may be divided over whether reconstructions approximate some kind of prehistoric reality or are merely convenient ways of capturing the similarities; but even Meillet (who, as you cite him adopts the latter stance) would not question the correctness and explanatory power of this theory. More than that, Robert Hall Jr. once went to the trouble of applying the comparative method of reconstruction to the Romance languages (not just the major literary languages, but also ?dialects? such as Sardinian and Sicilian) and demonstrated that the results come close to what we can infer (from graffiti etc.) about the popular spoken language of the (late) Roman empire. Similarly, the comparative method postulated a series of labiovelars for Proto (or ?Common?) Greek, and the decipherment of Mycenaean Greek furnished evidence for precisely this series. Further, the brilliant linguist de Saussure postulated for (pre-)Proto-Indo-European a series of coefficients sonantiques, and when Hittite was shown to be an Indo-European language actual reflexes of (some of) these elements were discovered to exist in that language. Evidence of this sort suggests that reconstruction does in fact approximate (and I use the term ?approximate? advisedly) a prehistoric reality. At any rate, a book that starts with the premise that Indo-European and Indo-European is a ?myth? raises questions right from the start. And claiming, as you do, that 'the idea/postulate of a single proto-language "mother" and its sub- proto-languages "daughters" and the subsequent idea of one "proto-people" "father" and its sub- proto-peoples "sons", this is, I think, a very mythical idea which pollutes the scientific explanation of the complex Eurasian prehistory? (bolding added) does not seem to be the 'the best (/ fairest) manner to present? the theory and methodology of Indo-European linguistics. What philologists, linguists, archaeologists, and/or prehistorians do with the lexical results of reconstruction, i.e. the method of ?linguistic palaeontology?, is another matter. It should therefore be no surprise that this is an area where even linguists may disagree with each other. For instance, in the case of the (in)famous ?beech tree? argument, the claim that a word for ?beech? could be reconstructed and that this establishes a Central European origin was questioned by other linguists with cogent counter arguments. One final comment: Whether we accept the ?AIT? or the ?OIT?, I believe we have to agree that somebody had to move to spread a group of related languages over such a vast territory. The idea that languages can spread without speakers, voiced by some archaeologists, is empirically indefensible (excpet perhaps in the context of modern communication) and thus violates the uniformitarian principle that should inform all areas of scientific inquiry. (I know, archaeologists working in South Asia are bothered by the idea of an AIT and should be similarly bothered by the OIT, since they find no skeletal or other evidence for such movements at the appropriate chronological time frames; but here as elsewhere much thinking on prehistorical matters is still informed by 19th-century ideas of nation and ?people?/?Volk?. We know that Turkish is a Central Asian langague by origin, and we know too that Turkic peoples conquered present-day Turkey; but a recent genomic study shows that only 3.4% of the Turkish population can be genetically traced to Central Asia. The genetic/genomic signature of movements thus can be quite faint and would be expected to be even less robust if instead of some 1000 years we are dealing with a time frame of at least 3500 years.) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 20 Jun 2015, at 04:48, Christophe Vielle > wrote: Maybe read the book... To comment on the basis of a "blurb" or to stress on details or anecdotes taken from the historiographical parts is not the best (/ fairest) manner to present this epistemological work, written by a very serious archaeologist (specialist of the Neolithic period, like Renfrew). His main point is precisely the problem of circularity of the arguments (linguistic + archaeological + genetics) which can be used for hypothesis (or "scenarios") as numerous/different as there are specialists imagining/reconstructing the proto-history beyond the (linguistic / archaeological / genetic) facts. What is the "entire field" you talk about, what is the "theory informing the field" ? If it is the idea/postulate of a single proto-language "mother" and its sub- proto-languages "daughters" and the subsequent idea of one "proto-people" "father" and its sub- proto-peoples "sons", this is, I think, a very mythical idea which pollutes the scientific explanation of the complex Eurasian prehistory, which one deserves an interdisciplinary approach without such a priori. As I have methodologically argued elsewhere (with the Indo-European and Semitic linguist Guy Jucquois, within a monograph... of the Journal of Indo-European Studies [1997]), referring to Meillet (i-e * forms are not prototypes, viz. items belonging to some mother-tongue, but the sum of the observed correspondances - metatypes one could say), Trubetzkoy (why beyond the observable antique dialectal diversity should it be postulated the simplicity/unity, etc.) and Pisani inter alios, the Indo-European (like other) comparative linguistics does not need of an "ultimate" oversimple explanation for working. To mistake on the nature of its results is detrimental to the whole field of Indo-European comparativism. The AITheory is the result of an illusion (and the OITheory an ideological reaction thereagainst - note that an early version of the latter can already be found in Andr? de Paniagua, Les temps h?ro?ques : ?tude pr?historique d'apr?s les origines indo-europ?ennes, Paris : E. Leroux, 1901: https://archive.org/details/lestempshroques00panigoog - nihil novi sub sole). Best wishes, Le 20 juin 2015 ? 03:36, Hock, Hans Henrich > a ?crit : To judge from the blurb of the book, this is one of those facile attempts to attack an entire field without offering any theory worth its salt that could take the place of theory informing the field. And again, like many such attempts it erases all kinds of ?pesky details?, including the fact that August Wilhelm Pott, who made major contributions to the development of Indo-European comparative phonology, also wrote a detailed rebuttal to Gobineau?s racist mythology of Aryan superiority. (Poliakov didn?t get that right either.) The people who sinned most in turning Indo-European linguistics into a foil for racist claims of Aryan superiority were not linguists but cultural-studies intellectuals, including Gobineau and Chamberlain, and it is these people that Hitler considered his intellectual ancestors. It is interesting to note that Uriel Weinreich, in his (deservedly) angry Hitler?s professors, cites Eduard Hermann as complaining that German Indo-Europeanists failed to take advantage of the great opportunities that Nazism (supposedly) provided them. ?nuff said. Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Jun 2015, at 02:57, Christophe Vielle > wrote: On this mythological topic, probably much more (methodologically) relevant is the book by Jean-Paul DEMOULE, Mais o? sont pass?s les Indo-Europ?ens ? Le mythe d?origine de l?Occident, Paris, ?ditions du Seuil, 2014, 739 pp. Le 18 juin 2015 ? 09:21, Philipp Maas > a ?crit : Those interested in the topiv of the IE-Homeland may find the Article ?The Indo-European Homeland fromLinguistic and Archaeological Perspectives? by David W. Anthony and Don Ringe relevant. Abstract: ?Archaeological evidence and linguistic evidence converge in support of an origin of Indo-European languages on the Pontic-Caspian steppes around 4,000 years BCE. The evidence is so strong that arguments in support of other hypotheses should be reexamined". With kind regards, Philipp Maas 2015-06-18 4:42 GMT+02:00 Veeranarayana Pandurangi >: Thanks recognizing it and links for new paper. We are open for it On Jun 17, 2015 4:14 AM, "Luis Gonzalez-Reimann" > wrote: Dear all, As part of this thread, the clear differences between the IVC and the culture of the Rg Veda have been briefly mentioned. Veeranarayana Pandurangi brought up another issue, the genetic evidence regarding the entrance of peoples into India during the Rgvedic period. He attached an article (Metspalu et al.) which, he said, "disproves the influx of people into India." In a new article called "Population Genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia (Allentoft et al.)," published in Nature only five day ago, the authors conclude that their "analyses support that migrations during the Early Bronze Age is a probable scenario for the spread of Indo-European languages." This goes in the opposite direction of the article by Metspalu et al., and gives strong genetic support to the notion of an influx into the Sub Continent between 3000-1000 BCE. The authors of the new article used a very large data set for their study. Here is the abstract. The Bronze Age of Eurasia (around 3000?1000 BC) was a period of major cultural changes. However, there is debate about whether these changes resulted from the circulation of ideas or from human migrations, potentially also facilitating the spread of languages and certain phenotypic traits. We investigated this by using new, improved methods to sequence low-coverage genomes from 101 ancient humans from across Eurasia. We show that the Bronze Age was a highly dynamic period involving large-scale population migrations and replacements, responsible for shaping major parts of present-day demographic structure in both Europe and Asia. Our findings are consistent with the hypothesized spread of Indo-European languages during the Early Bronze Age. We also demonstrate that light skin pigmentation in Europeans was already present at high frequency in the Bronze Age, but not lactose tolerance, indicating a more recent onset of positive selection on lactose tolerance than previously thought. And this is the link to the article: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/pdf/nature14507.pdf Luis Gonzalez-Reimann _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr. Philipp A. Maas Universit?tsassistent Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Wien ?sterreich univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 16:15:18 2015 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 15 21:45:18 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] politics of ICHR In-Reply-To: <2124081230.188368971.1434814735364.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Message-ID: < On the Indocentric side, that would imply a primary course of comparative-historical linguistics, not studied in India at all > This is not fully correct. I taught comparative linguistics for years at the Visva Bharati. Professor Abhijit Majumdar still teaches it at the Calcutta(now Kolkata)University. There have been authorities like Suniti Kumar Chatterji who had taught the subject for years. Before him S.C.Vidyabhshan and others had taught it in the Calcutta University.PD gune wrote a book in 1924. Unfortunately .the *laryngeal theory* has not been much pursued in India. But after the publication of a paper by R.S.P.Beekes by the Asiatic Society apart from that of Burrow's works, interested teachers are slowly taking up the subject. I and Dr. Abhjit Majumdar introduced it in the Visva Bharati syllabus. Lack of keen interest is one thing but that the Universities were till a few years ago keen on the subject should not be ignored.. I regret the declining interest but that has more to do with the emergence of structural linguistics than avoidance of the subject as unnecessary. Best DB On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 9:08 PM, wrote: > Dear listfolk, > > > > > One scholar says about the Homeland debate: "I myself am not walking into > this swamp." Understandable, because in the past, the debate has often been > characterized by bitter acrimony and laughable instances of being > "under-informed but over-opinionated". But that ought not to be a reason ad > aeternam to give up on the debate, the outcome of which is in every respect > highly consequential for the history of Indian thought and institutions. > > > > Another scholar comments: ""Sadly this is the common response. While I > understand that people have other projects they are busy with, this era in > India is very crucial and there are still many unresolved issues even if > one is not interested in the AMT/OIT debate per se. Unfortunately, there > appears to be no place where these issues are discussed so we end up with > two camps not communicating with each other. Thus all kinds of > unsubstantiated claims remain unvetted by qualified scholars." > > > > Well, we might close up the debate for now and not communicate for another > while,-- but withdraw into our studies to at least acquaint ourselves with > the other side?s case, which is now easy to google. On the Indocentric > side, that would imply a primary course of comparative-historical > linguistics, not studied in India at all and held in contempt by NS > Rajaram as "a pseudo-science". It is generally assumed by friend and foe > that linguistics implies and has prove the Aryan Invasion Theory, whch is > the reason why Hindu anti-invasionists think they have to reject > linguistics as well. However, I am not convinced by the linguistic case for > the AIT, and in my opinion, believers in the Indian homeland have nothing > to fear from linguistics. > > > > In the AIT camp, by contrast, the need of the hour is first of all to get > to know the Out-of-India case. In IE conferences in Europe, I have found > that many scholars have not even heard of India's homeland candidacy. To > them, the "homeland debate" means the choice between the Pontic and the > Anatolian theory. Those who have heard of it, mostly have also heard of its > knee-deep immersion in politics, viz. Hindu nationalism (though they are > not troubled by the neck-deep immersion of the AIT in politics, including > Dravidianism and Ambedkarism in India till today, and in the past also > British colonialism and National-Socialism), and find this enough reason > not to get involved in it. The few who are actively involved in the debate, > mostly deal with the many amateurs whose outpourings you find on the > internet, and understandably don?t think very high of them and of the > theory they are defending. However, to win a debate not for the gallery and > the ignorant public, but at the scholarly level, it woud be better to > address the opposing theory not in its weakest but in its strongest > expression. > > > > One relevant fact has been pointed out by another participant scholar > here: "I just draw attention to a few bibliographical deficiencies that > struck me. If I am not mistaken, that is because of the vast amount of > literature posted" > > Yes, that must be the reason: too many other reading responsibilities. > Understandable, but at any rate, the result is "bibliographical > deficiencies". Among those Indian archaeologists at the Delhi conference > end of March, I heard a few specialists enumerate the mistakes in David > Anthony's work. Archaeology is not my field, but at least, I have the > impression that we should not be over-awed by the assurance given here by a > philologist that Anthony, together with Ringe, has given unassailable proof > for the Pontic-Caspian homeland. As a matter of "bibliographical > deficiency", I note the absence from the debate of works on the > archaeologically attested solid continuity of Indian civilization before > and after Harappa, such as by the Frenchman Michel Danino: The Lost River. > On the Trail of the Saraswati. At the Delhi conference, he enumerated the > mistakes in the archaeological case for the Aryan invasion, to the approval > of his colleagues in the audience. At an IE conference in Louvain-la-Neuve > in 2013, his book was mentioned by a famous French scholar during an award > acceptance speech: "Of course I will not read the book itself, as it is all > wrong anyway." This is typical for a general attitude of stonewalling, on > both sides. Having a foot in both worlds, I am amazed to see how many > scholars are just not curious about what is being said on the other side of > the fence. > > Two books which you guys are well equipped to read, are the philological > works of Shrikant Talageri, which are far better and vastly more original > than his outsider status would let you assume. Status-conscious people may > of course choose to ignore his work, but scholars pursuing knowledge are > making a grave mistake if they want to form an opinion on the homeland > question without acquainting themselves with his arguments. His book The > Rigveda, a Historical Analysis, has only been reviewed by Michael Witzel, > and Talageri has provided a detailed reply. His book The Rigveda and the > Avesta, the Final Evidence, had been reviewed by Arnaud Fournet (and by > myself), and again, Talageri has provided a detailed reply. Having just > reread these books, I am convinced that they can keep AIT-minded scholars > busy for some time, and risk changing their minds. For now, I will not > comment on their contents. If you are not willing to spend any money on > them, just google the videos in which he states his case orally: > > One last thing. Prof. BB Lal, the nonagenarian dean of Indian archaeology, > and star of the Delhi conference, is usually lambasted as a ?Hindu > nationalist? and therefore not to be taken seriously. I?d be careful with > this attitude. First of all, he is not a Hindu nationalist in the sense of: > someone who owes his professional and/or ideological position to the Sangh > Parivar or the BJP, presently in power. This movement is the object of all > kinds of vague and uninformed assumptions among Western India-watchers, and > here is a case in point. > > Secondly, Lal was also lambasted 25 years ago for providing archaeological > evidence for the then-controversial Rama temple in Ayodhya. Meanwhile, > excavations and the Court verdict have proven him right ? and all his > critics wrong. Massively lambasted, yet proven right. This may well happen > with his anti-AIT stand. > > Lal made his name ca. 1960 by providing the long-sought-after > archaeological proof of the Aryans moving into India: the Painted Grey > Ware, supposedly typical of the invaders moving deeper into India?s > interior. Till today, this ?proof? in quoted as authority in pro-AIT > history books (e.g. Pradhan SV: The Elusive Aryans, 2014). I myself was > taught this as proof ca. 1980 by Prof. Pierre Eggermont in Leuven > University. However, Lal has reexamined his own case and found that in > explaining his data, he was conditioned by his pre-given belief in the AIT. > Examining the data with an unbiased eye, he found nothing pointing to a > foreign origin, and much that indicated a local genesis. At the conference, > he summed up his long-standing anti-AIT case as follows: ?Vedic culture and > Harappan culture are two sides of the same coin.? > > Some will say, and have indeed said, that his ?conversion? took place > under BJP influence. Among politicos engaged in a barroom discussion, this > would be a clinching argument; among scholars, who keep in mind the > difference between the motive for and the contents of someone?s conviction, > this would be perfectly inconsequential, even if it were true. Anyway, at > that time, Lal was already fin-de-carri?re and could speak freely without > expecting anything from politicians. Moreover, the BJP was very much in the > opposition and the object of an enormous hate campaign in the public sphere > worldwide. A public intellectual associating in any way with the BJP had > nothing to expect except ostracism and calumny,-- and these indeed are > still being directed against Lal till today, though less so since the BJP > is in power. If a scholar was knowingly prepared to risk this treatment, it > was because he was convinced of his case. > > This way, the prominent Out-of-India scholars are typically ?converts? > from the AIT: this also counts e.g. for the Greek Sanskritist Nicholas > Kazanas (do read his 2015 book on Indo-European), who used to teach the AIT > himself. It also counts for myself: I know how it feels to start doubting > the seemingly well-established certainties of the AIT. > > Of course, the anecdotal fact of someone?s ?conversion? is no proof for > the rightness of either his present or his past conviction. But > heuristically, it might serve as an occasion for scholars to conceive the > project of studying the issue more closely. In this case, it would be > welcome if scholars understood at last that there is here a real debate > here, with genuine arguments on both sides. Not a querulous controversy > that was won hands down by own?s own camp years ago and doesn?t need any > treatment at all except snickering. > > Kind regards, > > > > Koenraad Elst > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sat Jun 20 17:49:19 2015 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 15 19:49:19 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] politics of ICHR In-Reply-To: <2124081230.188368971.1434814735364.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Message-ID: Dear Koenraad, could you, please, provide the List with a link to Talageri's response to your and Fournet's reviews of his book (*The Rigveda and the Avesta, the Final Evidence*)? Best, Artur (Konrad) Karp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gok-8 at spro.net Sat Jun 20 19:18:41 2015 From: gok-8 at spro.net (jo) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 15 13:18:41 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] the "other paper" on massive Eurasia migrations Message-ID: <002901d0ab8d$eb380580$c1a81080$@spro.net> X-posted from the IER list (by Joanna Kirkpatrick): Titled, "Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe". Link: http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1502/1502.02783.pdf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 19:30:19 2015 From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 15 21:30:19 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers - Religion as a Colonial Concept in Early Modern History (Africa, America, Asia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <197F8B8B-26E1-4599-85D9-81EDE4874872@gmail.com> They are still accepting the abstracts. Mrinal Kaul Call for Papers: (Dipartimento di Storia, Culture, Religioni, Universit? degli studi di Roma "La Sapienza") The concept of religion transformed during Early Modern History, both in the ?inner? de- bate generated by the collapse of Christianity, and in ?outer? contexts, following a reaction to contacts with other cultures. Meant as a thematic section of our journal, the present call for papers aims to investigate ?religion? as a modern concept and a colonial dispositif. The mod- ern concept of religion inspired different processes of ?spiritual conquest? ? in discursive and practical terms ? within the dynamics of the ?mondialization? produced in the age of discov- eries. The theme section will investigate, through a comparative methodology, the historical resemblances among simultaneous colonial processes taking place in the Americas, Africa, and Asia. Critical reflection on historical analogies and differences will contribute to a global mapping of the uses of the concept of religion during Early Modern History. We aim to pro- vide, on the one hand, an archaeology of the general modern concept of religion, and, on the other, a genealogy of religious studies, as a result of the international academic efforts towards a description, comparison, classification and explanation of religion. We expectthe authors to investigate the ?invention? of religion as a ?generalized? concept. Critical voices making use of colonial sources, such as missionary works, travel writings, etc., would be particularly wel- come, as well as contributions aimed to emphasize a ?connected history of religions?. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: callSMSRReligion.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 737476 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 20:19:38 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 15 01:49:38 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] politics of ICHR Message-ID: Comparative-historical linguistics of IE or Dravidian or any other? 'Not studied' means .not researched' / 'contributions are not made to'/ 'no original research done' ? or Not taught as a course in the universities? In either sense the impression is a mistaken one: Comparative historical linguistics is taught rigorously in huge amounts in all the linguistics courses in all the Indian Universities. I studied it at Osmania University, Hyderabad and at the University of Hyderabad. IE part with Prof. H S Ananthanarayana, Dravidian part with Prof. B. Ramakrishna Reddy. and at University of Hyderabad I studied the Dravidian side with Prof. P. Ramanarasimham. Coming to research and contributions: It is well known that significant contributions to Dravidian family side of comparative-historical linguistics were made by many Indian scholars like Prof. Bh Krishnamurti. Those who in India apprehend that IE historical linguistics is responsible for AIT theory, may not be from the academics of linguistics. My teachers always asked us to be cautious about drawing hasty physical anthropological or archaeological correlations to what they taught us in the historical linguistics course. Prof. Ramakrishna Reddy even told me that quite often, such correlations may not exist too. My IE course teacher used to say that it is not the job of a historical linguist to explain the wide geographical distribution of languages of a family. -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Sat Jun 20 20:29:19 2015 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 15 20:29:19 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] the "other paper" on massive Eurasia migrations In-Reply-To: <002901d0ab8d$eb380580$c1a81080$@spro.net> Message-ID: <7F141FED-D331-48AF-8F25-E50C642AAC73@illinois.edu> Thanks, Joanna. This paper, too, has not drawn on South Asian/Indian data (or of data from Iran or Southern Europe), but considers work on these areas an important desideratum. Cheers, Hans Henrich On 20 Jun 2015, at 14:18, jo > wrote: X-posted from the IER list (by Joanna Kirkpatrick): Titled, ?Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe?. Link: http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1502/1502.02783.pdf _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gok-8 at spro.net Sat Jun 20 20:47:26 2015 From: gok-8 at spro.net (jo) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 15 14:47:26 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] the "other paper" on massive Eurasia migrations In-Reply-To: <7F141FED-D331-48AF-8F25-E50C642AAC73@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <002501d0ab9a$5113a6a0$f33af3e0$@spro.net> Yes. Also, both papers published that sources for ancient DNA are very difficult to obtain for S. Asia. Joanna K. From: Hock, Hans Henrich [mailto:hhhock at illinois.edu] Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 2:29 PM To: jo Cc: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] the "other paper" on massive Eurasia migrations Thanks, Joanna. This paper, too, has not drawn on South Asian/Indian data (or of data from Iran or Southern Europe), but considers work on these areas an important desideratum. Cheers, Hans Henrich On 20 Jun 2015, at 14:18, jo wrote: X-posted from the IER list (by Joanna Kirkpatrick): Titled, "Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe". Link: http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1502/1502.02783.pdf _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sun Jun 21 01:59:12 2015 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 15 01:59:12 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] politics of ICHR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037521887@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> A summary of some of the pertinent research is found in today's New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/science/dna-deciphers-roots-of-modern-europeans.html?hpw&rref=science&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region?ion=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0 Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elena.mucciarelli at indo.uni-tuebingen.de Sun Jun 21 10:52:16 2015 From: elena.mucciarelli at indo.uni-tuebingen.de (Elena Mucciarelli) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 15 12:52:16 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Kutiyattam_theater_from_Kerala_in_T=C3=BCbingen?= Message-ID: <372DDDF3-CE7A-4028-A85C-CA44AEC71D86@indo.uni-tuebingen.de> Dear members of the list, we are happy to announce that the traditional Sanskrit theater from Kerala, K??iy???am, is coming to T?bingen from the 22nd to the 24th of July. On the 22nd a full-day workshops (from 9:15 am in Brechtbautheater, Wilhelmstr. 50) has been organized by the Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies, Dept. of Indology. On the 23rd the Kutiyattam team Nepathya will perform in T?bingen, at Sudhaus Theater. On the 24th another performance will take place in Stuttgart, at Theater am Faden. For more details, please see the programs attached below. Everybody is very much welcome! 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URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 13:15:40 2015 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 15 15:15:40 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Looking for McKim Marriott & R. Nagaswamy articles Message-ID: Dear friends of Indology list, I'm looking for the following contribution and article: Marriott, M. 1955. "Little communities in an indigenous civilization". In Mckim Marriott [ed.]. *Village India : studies in the little community*. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Nagaswamy, R. 1966. "The Sixty-four Yoginis and Bhuta Worship as Mentioned by Sankara in His Commentar on the bhagavadgita", *Berliner Indologische Studien*, Vols. 9-10, pp. 237-246. Anyone can help me with pdf copies? Best, Paolo -- Paolo E. Rosati PhD candidate in "Civilisations of Asia & Africa" Section: South Asian Studies Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO) 'Sapienza' University of Rome -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Sun Jun 21 17:21:22 2015 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 15 17:21:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] politics of ICHR In-Reply-To: <2124081230.188368971.1434814735364.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Message-ID: <1237756455.2721345.1434907282211.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Koenraad, Until a few years ago, when I got distracted by other projects, I had read all of the books and articles you suggest. Our library has a very complete Harappan and Vedic collection including copies of original archaeological reports going back at least to Marshall's original 1931 publication. I'm familiar with the debates between Witzel and Talageri. By the way, do you have links to those? At the time they were scattered around a bit. Perhaps they've been collected by now. As you must know from reading those, since Talageri did not have formal training, he made numerous errors. He often admitted this and each successive book worked to correct them. There are, nevertheless, gaps in his theory. Some of your valuable writings have attempted to address some of them. To date I have not seen clinching evidence for the OIT although some interesting considerations regarding the AMT have been raised. That's why I recommend to everyone the debates between Witzel and Talageri -- between the two of them they highlight some important issues. In the final analysis, however, no one from the OIT camp has done a rigorous enough analysis of the linguistic issues to convince mainstream scholars to abandon their current paradigm. Your writings have dealt with a few of them but what it would require would be a systematic reworking of some of the foundations of Indo-European historical linguistics including, not just rules like RUKI, but to be complete, a refutation of the Laryngeal Theory. If the OIT supporters want to convince everyone, they should provide scholarships for one or more of their brightest students to study at the best programs in historical linguistics in the world -- while they still exist in today's rapidly corporatizing universities. Having mastered the discipline, they will then be qualified to attempt to dismantle the Indo-European edifice; if it can be done. The only alternatives I can think of, off the top of my head, would be the deciphering of the Harappan script as an Indo-Aryan language, or the discovery in South Asia of something like a Sintashta-type chariot burial with unimpeachable provenance. Since we're fantasizing here I'd like to request that the glove box contain a copy of the Bhagavad Gita written in the Harappan script. If such a discovery were made, with or without the Gita, then I imagine the majority of the South Asian-oriented linguistic community would get on board to help rewrite the laws of linguistics. Until this happens, the best the OIT can hope for is rearranging some of the pieces on the board. It is not a game-changer. Best, Dean Anderson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 08:44:06 2015 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 10:44:06 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Looking for McKim Marriott & R. Nagaswamy articles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many thanks to Rohana Seneviratne for sending me a copy of Mckim Marriott's work. I wish any German scholar could help me with the Ngaswamy's article, because the *Berliner Indologische Studien* isn't available in Italy. Best, Paolo -- Paolo E. Rosati PhD candidate in "Civilisations of Asia & Africa" Section: South Asian Studies Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO) 'Sapienza' University of Rome -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From juergen.neuss at fu-berlin.de Mon Jun 22 08:57:40 2015 From: juergen.neuss at fu-berlin.de (=?utf-8?Q?J=C3=BCrgen_Neuss?=) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 10:57:40 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Looking for McKim Marriott & R. Nagaswamy articles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Paolo, if you haven't yet got Nagaswamy's BIS article, you may contact Gerd Mevissen, editor of the BIS (gerdmevissen at hotmail.com). Best, J?rgen On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 10:44:06 +0200, Paolo Eugenio Rosati wrote: > Many thanks to Rohana Seneviratne for sending me a copy of Mckim > Marriott's > work. > I wish any German scholar could help me with the Ngaswamy's article, > because the *Berliner Indologische Studien* isn't available in Italy. > > Best, > Paolo > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. phil. J?rgen Neuss Freie Universit?t Berlin - Department of History and Cultural Studies - - Institute for the Scientific Study of Religion Go?lerstr. 2-4 14195 Berlin Germany ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | email: juergen.neuss at fu-berlin.de | project: http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~jneuss | profile: fu-berlin.academia.edu/JuergenNeuss ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 10:34:58 2015 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 12:34:58 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Looking for McKim Marriott & R. Nagaswamy articles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to Corinna Wessel-Mavissen for the help in finding the Nagaswamy's article (that maybe was published in 1996 and wasn't in 1966). Thanks to all that help and try to help me, this list is great!!! Best wishes, Paolo -- Paolo E. Rosati Oriental Archaeologist PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa Section: South Asian Studies Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO) 'Sapienza' University of Rome paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Mobile: (+39) 3387383472 Skype: paoloe.rosati -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 14:08:41 2015 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 19:38:41 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] J.Deppert 1983 Message-ID: indology at list.indology.info 22 06 15 Dear Colleagues, Could anybody tell if J.Deppert?s ?East or West ? precedent: the Aryan Schism? *India and the West*, New Delhi 1983 is available on the Internet? Could anybody help with a pdf? With thanks in advance and best wishes Dipak Bhattacharya -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From koenraad.elst at telenet.be Mon Jun 22 15:12:22 2015 From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 17:12:22 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] politics of ICHR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <795760064.192416473.1434985942309.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Dear listfolk, >could you, please, provide the List with a link to Talageri's response to your and Fournet's reviews of his book (*The Rigveda and the Avesta, the Final Evidence*)?< ? The article is no longer downloadable from Scribd, it seems, so I'll reproduce it here. I don't know if this list accepts attachments, I'll try that way but also putting it in the mail itself, below. ? ? Regards, ? Koenraad Elst ? ? A Detailed Reply to a Joker?s ?Review? of my Book. ? Shrikant G Talageri. ? ? Niraj Mohanka has, on 10 th April 2010, sent me, presumably to elicit some reaction from me, the following comments by Arnaud Fournet made during the course of a discussion on an internet discussion site IndiaArchaeology at yahoogroups.com .: ? ? This book proves nothing but that Talageri still has a very long way to go before he understands what the issues are about and how to write a book?. I suggest you read again the review I wrote nearly one year ago. I read it again recently and I see little to change? For the time being, nobody addressed the real issues contained in the review and keeps on dreaming on never-exist fairytales ?. ? Fournet refers here to a ?review? he had published on www.scribd.com on 22 nd May 2009 ? that is nearly a year ago, of my third book ?The Rigveda and the Avesta ? The Final Evidence? (Aditya Prakashan, New Delhi , 2008). I had read this ?review? at that time itself; but, after the initial reactive indignation that I naturally felt after reading a pointless and pompous diatribe against my book written in a jeering and sneering tone, I soon realized that there was really nothing to ?reply? to in that ?review?: it was so utterly pointless and irrelevant. [Later, I was informed that another, even more vicious and vindictive, review had been written in a Bangalore journal by an Indian writer who has had his knife in me since quite some time. I did not think that other review even worth procuring and reading]. I decided at that time that I really could not waste my time replying to every Tom, Dick and Harry of a writer who chose to vent his spite and venom on my book or on myself just to satisfy his itching fingers, unless he really had something concrete to say about the data, facts and evidence contained in my book . Sad to say, Fournet?s review had nothing concrete at all to say about my book , and did not really merit any serious reply. ? But it appears Fournet is under the impression that his ?review? has silenced me and others like me who choose to keep on ? dreaming on never-exist [sic] fairytales ?. And perhaps friendly readers would like or expect me to give some reply. So I am writing this ?reply? in order to clarify once and for all as to what would constitute a genuine review of my book which would merit a reply from me ; and the best way of doing this is by giving a counter-review of Fournet?s ?review? of my book, to demonstrate how there are absolutely no ? real issues ? at all ? contained in the review ?, however fondly Fournet, egged on by the Farmer-Witzel pack of jokers, may be under the impression that he has managed to fool everyone into believing that there are . In fact, Fournet?s review really shows him up as being a joker par excellence. ? First, let me clarify what my book is all about. The core heart of this book is the first section which presents absolutely new and absolutely conclusive evidence about the chronology (relative, internal and absolute) and the geography of the Rigveda and the Avesta. This evidence itself is enough to smash the AIT into smithereens and to prove the OIT; or, at the very least, to make it clear that it would require complete and extremely radical amendments to the AIT to produce a new version of an AIT which would try to accommodate all these chronological and geographical factors into a non-Indian homeland theory. The second section of the book only dots all the ?i?s and crosses all the ?t?s (often repeating material from my second book along with an array of new evidence and logical arguments) in order to show how the OIT alone fulfils all the requirements and solves all the problems of the IE Homeland question. Any discussion on the second section can only follow a discussion on the first section of my book. ? The first section of my book proves beyond the shadow of any doubt that 1) the period of composition of the latest parts of the Rigveda (latest not only according to my criteria but according to the internal chronology accepted by consensus among western academicians) goes back into the late third millennium BCE at the latest, 2) that the proto-Iranians and the proto-Mitanni emigrated from India during the period of composition of these latest parts, and 3) that the proto-Iranians and the pre-Mitanni Indo-Aryans, in the periods preceding this late period, i.e. in the periods preceding the late third millennium BCE at the latest, were inhabitants of areas to the east of the Sapta Sindhava region with little or no prior acquaintance with areas to the west. ? This is proved, not on the basis of empty rhetoric of the kind which characterizes Fournet?s pathetic ?review?, but on the basis of pages and pages and pages of detailed and complete (i.e. non-partisan ) data, facts and evidence ? concrete evidence which can be verified or else can be exposed if false. ? Only and only after this evidence in the first section of my book is discussed, and either conclusively proved wrong (with the help of an alternate, and equally detailed and complete, analysis of the chronological and geographical data in the Rigveda and the Avesta), or accepted but within an attempted alternate AIT hypothesis, can any discussion spill over into the second section of the book. ? This reply to Fournet?s ?review? of my book will have three sections: ? I. The Real Issues contained in the first section of my book. II. The ?Real Issues? in Fournet?s ?review?. III. Postscript: How to write a review. ? First, let us see how Fournet deals with the core ? real issues ? contained in my book. ? ? I. The Real Issues contained in the first section of my book. ? The first section of my book is loaded with detailed masses of concrete data covering all the possible occurrences of a large number of categories of words in the Rigveda, relevant to the historical analysis of the Rigveda and the Avesta, complete with hymn and verse numbers. This is solid data, arranged systematically in tables, charts and lists, the veracity of which can be verified or disproved with very little effort . The text of the chapters very systematically explains the logical significance of the detailed charts and lists, and the very precise conclusions that can be drawn from this data. This data, and the conclusions which automatically and logically flow out from it, constitute the crux of the first section of the book , but Fournet totally fails or refuses to even glance at this data and evidence: in fact, he finds that there are ? frequent interruptions of the text by copious references to the hymns and verses of the Rig-Veda and by lists of names or nouns. Many of these references should have been preferably dealt with otherwise, so that the reasoning and the text of the author would not be constantly chopped [?] All these textual and typographic features are hindrances for the reader to understand what the writer wants to say and sometimes to find the text itself amidst the references ? (notwithstanding that ?the reasoning and the text of the author? and ?what the writer wants to say? are based solely on these copious references and wordlists rather than on empty rhetoric!). And, again, about chapter 1, ? About half the pages are references which could be synthesized and organized otherwise as annexes ?, and about chapter 2, ? Most of this part is references or tables ?. ? But, in spite of having all these concrete masses of references and data, along with detailed explanations about their meaning and import, virtually thrust on him in the main body of the text rather than in extraneous and avoidable annexes, Fournet resolutely ignores it all, and sums up his conclusions about the chapters on the basis of vague, impressionistic and opinionated comments which totally fail to make even the pretence of an examination of any part of the data or even to take it into consideration: ? Chapter 1 gives a complete analysis of the names and name elements common to the Rigveda and the Avesta, and shows how the major body of these names and name elements (and, incidentally, even various categories of compound word types which form these name elements), which form the common cultural elements in the two books, are found right from the earliest hymns of the Avesta (the Gathas) but are found in the Rigveda only in the Late Books and hymns: precisely, in 386 hymns in the Late Books I, V, VIII-X, but in only 8 hymns in the Early and Middle Books II-IV, VI-VII ( all 8 of which are classified by the western scholars as Late hymns within these earlier books!). Fournet sweeps aside this overpowering data, without examination, with the remark: ? We have no particular opinion about the conclusion and the method used to reach it. We tend to think that this point is not as crucial as the author seems to believe ?; ? Chapter 2 gives a complete typological analysis of all the meters used in the Rigveda, along with an analysis of the chronological evolution of the meters, and shows how the meters used in the Gathas, the earliest part of the Avesta, are meters which in the Rigveda had evolved only by the time of the Late Books of the Rigveda. Fournet, again sweeps aside this concrete data, without examination, with the remark: ? This chapter is abstruse and it is hard to figure what these statistics actually prove ?. ? Chapter 3 examines the geographical data in the Rigveda in complete detail, and shows how the Vedic Aryans in the periods of the Early and Middle Books of the Rigveda, i.e. in the periods before the development of the common Indo-Iranian culture which took place in the period of the Late Books of the Rigveda, were located to the east of the Punjab, with little, if any, knowledge of areas to the west . Again, without examining any of the copious data given, Fournet dismisses the inevitable conclusions arising from this data with the evasive remark: ? Ultimately, the conclusions drawn from the Rig-Veda depend on the relative chronology chosen or determined for the books. Circularity is a permanent risk ?. ? Thus, Fournet sweepingly dismisses the copious data in chapters 1 and 2, without examination , on the ground that it is not ? crucial ? or that it is ? hard to figure out ?. ? Worse, he dismisses the copious data in chapters 1, 2 and 3 on the additional ground that the conclusions drawn are not acceptable since the veracity of these conclusions ? depend on the relative chronology chosen and determined for the books ?, and that different scholars have proposed different chronological orders for books II-VII from the one proposed by me in my books (which is VI, III, VII, IV, II, V). Fournet simply refuses to examine, or even to consider, all that copious data, and simply dismisses my conclusions with a contemptuous Gallic shrug, and the escapist remarks: ? We do not have the expertise to determine which order (or if another one) should be preferred. [?.] These philological technicalities should be addressed and discussed by competent specialists of the field ?, ? Here, he deliberately ignores the fact that Chapter 4 of my book makes it very clear that the veracity of the conclusions drawn by me in the first section of my book does not in any way depend on my own chronological order for books II-VII. The conclusions actually stand confirmed purely on the basis of the consensus among academic scholars (the ? competent specialists of the field ?) that the family books II-VII are older than the non-family books I VIII IX X, and that, of books II-VII, book V is closer to books I VIII IX X than to the other family books, so that we get two distinct groups of books on the basis of a near consensus among academic scholars: an earlier group consisting of books II III IV VI VII and a later group consisting of books V I VIII IX X. Fournet himself confirms the major part of this consensus classification: ? All agree that the books I VIII IX X are the most recent and disagree about the order of the other six ones, admittedly the oldest ?. And the fact is that all the ? copious references to the hymns and verses of the Rig-Veda ? and all the ? lists of names or nouns ? which Fournet regards as ? frequent interruptions of the text ? in my book, and as data to be ignored or dismissed, fall into two distinct and clear cut categories in their patterns of distribution in the Rigveda in line with these very two groups of books. Therefore, even without the help of ? competent specialists of the field ?, even Fournet should have been able to verify whether my conclusions are right or wrong by simply checking the veracity of my data. ? Fournet?s remarks on Chapter 5 are even more surprising. In Chapter 5 , I have clearly shown how all the Mitanni name types are found only and exclusively in the later group of books (V I VIII IX X in 112 hymns) and missing in the earlier group of books (II III IV VI VII, except in 1 hymn classified by western academic scholars as a late hymn in these earlier books). Fournet does not just find my conclusion (that the data shows that the Mitanni IA language is younger than the earlier parts of the Rigveda) unconvincing, but he finds that ? If any conclusion can be drawn out of these data, we would conclude that they prove the Rig-Veda, as a whole, is younger than this Mitanni Indo-Aryan-oid language, contrary to the author?s claim ?! How on earth, given that even he accepts that ? all agree ? that books I VIII IX X are ? the most recent ?, does he find that ? these data ? ? which clearly show that the ? Mitanni Indo-Aryan-oid ? names are found only in this ? most recent ? group of books, and are totally missing in the books which are ? admittedly the oldest ? ? without any examination to disprove the veracity of the data, lead to the conclusion that ? the Rig-Veda, as a whole, is younger than this Mitanni Indo-Aryan-oid language, contrary to the author?s claim ?? Just how does this joker?s brain function? ? So far, discussions on the Indo-European question have been based only on rhetoric and airy assumptions. When references from the Rigveda have formed any part of the evidence presented by either the OIT side or the AIT side, they have consisted mainly of stray references picked up from the text, interpreted by adding all kinds of values absent in the actual words, and made the starting points or first links of chains of similar interpretations one leading to the other and ending in momentous conclusions which bear no direct connection with the original references cited. Many of the astronomical interpretations of Vedic references cited by OIT writers fall in this category. The textual ?evidence? for the AIT as a whole is almost entirely based on such interpretations: the most telling example is the way one stray word, an?s , occurring just once in the whole of the Rigveda and never again after that in any other text, was taken as a-n?s rather than an-?s which it actually was, translated as ?nose-less? and further interpreted as ?snub-nosed?, and consequently treated in countless scholarly works over two centuries of western Vedic scholarship as evidence that the alleged native non-Aryan Indians, whom the alleged Aryan invaders/immigrants encountered when they allegedly entered India, were ?snub-nosed?. ? The data and statistics which fill the first section of my book to the overflowing ? the ? copious references to the hymns and verses of the Rig-Veda ? and all the ? lists of names or nouns ? which Fournet regards as ? frequent interruptions of the text ? in my book ? form the very crux of my book and of the evidence presented by me. They consist of complete lists of concrete words (i.e. words taken in their accepted literal meanings, rather than with symbolic or value-added meanings) of different categories (including personal names, and names of animals, rivers, etc.), and the particular picture consistently depicted by the very regular pattern of distribution itself, of these words (as also of other data like meters), forms the crux of the evidence. ? The summary of this evidence is spelt out so clearly (in the section entitled ?What the Evidence Shows?, pp. 43-49 of my book) that even a half-witted person, if he took care to actually read the section instead of writing an abusive ?review? based only on his predetermined agenda, should have been able to understand it. And the inevitability of the conclusions drawn by me from this evidence is also spelt out so clearly (in the section entitled ?Can this Evidence be refuted?? on pp.135-142 of my book) that any reviewer without sand in his brains ( if , of course, he had bothered to read and understand what I have written) would have thought ten times before being so summary in his dismissal of the evidence without examination. ? There is only one Rigveda (as there is only one Avesta, and one known and limited treasury of Mitanni words), so it is not really possible to challenge this evidence by citing alternative equally complete lists of words showing a different regular pattern and therefore a different picture; but a genuine critic would have examined the actual lists given by me in detail to check the extent to which they are genuine and complete, and to which they do indeed show the pattern of distribution claimed by me and justify the historical and geographical conclusions reached by me, and would have based any criticism on such an examination . However, Fournet completely shuns examining this copious data which conclusively establishes the chronology of the composition of the Rigveda as going back into the late third millennium BCE and beyond for the beginnings of the latest parts, and, almost like a joke, merely reiterates the incredible (in view of all the data in the first section of my book) proposition: ? The standard traditional time bracket from -1500 to -1000 BC for the composition of the Rig-Veda disqualifies the OIT as constructed by the author ?! ? Fournet, like Witzel before him in his criticism of my earlier book, shows the same utter contempt for concrete references, data and statistics, and the same total reliance on mockery and on empty rhetoric. What Fournet proves in this review, as we shall see in detail, is that the only way in which writers like him, including Witzel before him and other likely critics after him, can afford or dare to deal with my book is by completely ignoring the copious references, data, statistics, and other hard evidence actually presented by me, and the conclusions which unavoidably proceed from this material, and by substituting jeering rhetoric for analytical reasoning. The fact is not that ? nobody addressed the real issues contained in the review ?; the fact (to put it crudely but accurately) is that polemicists like Fournet and Witzel just simply do not have the guts in their balls to address the ? real issues ? in my book. ? Any review which steadfastly avoids dealing with the concrete data overflowing on every page of the first section of my book ? avoids examining all the data and either showing that significant portions of that data are false, or showing convincingly that the data leads to conclusions other than those drawn by me ? is a Big Zero , howsoever much the reviewer may pat himself on the back (and have his back patted by like-minded jokers) that he has effectively made mincemeat of my book merely on the basis of a barrage of rhetoric, polemics and derision. Fournet?s ?review? is nothing but a joke played by a sick joker to win the gleeful applause of other like-minded jokers. ? It is up to the reader to read both my book (the reading of which Fournet claims his review renders unnecessary) as well as Fournet?s ?review? and to decide for himself: ? a) what exactly the ? real issues contained in the review ? are, and whether they really require to be addressed at all; and also whether or not Fournet himself has in fact addressed the very real issues in my book in his ?review?, and ? b) whether it is I who do not understand ? how to write a book ? (and have to learn ? how to write a book ? from this joker), or whether it is Fournet who does not understand how to read a book, or how to understand what he is reading even when it is set out in plain English. ? ? II. The ?Real Issues? in Fournet?s ?review?. ? Fournet steadfastly refuses to examine the masses and masses of concrete, complete and verifiable data in the form of references, data, facts, statistics and evidence given in the first section of my book, presumably on the ground that they do not constitute ? real issues ?. So what exactly are the ? real issues ? he is ?reviewing? in his ?review?? ? The ? real issues ? in Fournet?s ?review? are all purely pedantic and polemical issues, and the review by and large consists of a series of monologues consisting of long, convoluted and extremely confused polemical discussions on different subjects: e.g. the phrases ?AIT? and ?OIT?, the concept of ?Indo-Iranian?, the concept of ?Indo-European?, the phrase ?develop?, and the concept of cultural change and transformation. The rest of the ?review? is devoted to a pedantic criticism of the book as a whole. The monologues, as well as the rest of the ?review?, consist mainly of detailed semantic discussions on the meanings of different words and concepts and Freudian psycho-analyses of my alleged basic misuse or misunderstanding of these words and concepts. ? Before examining the ? real issues ? raised by Fournet, it is necessary to understand two very basic aspects of Fournet?s ?review? which become clear from every word and line written by him: ? First of all, it is clear that Fournet?s ?review? is not written with the intention of seriously examining what I have written in my book: it is written with the sole and only aim of sneering and jeering at anything and everything written in the book, and ridiculing and deriding my hypothesis and my person. This will become clear as we proceed with our examination. ? Secondly, it is also clear that Fournet?s ?review? is based on the principle that ?ignorance is bliss?; or rather, that ?ignorance is power?, since it removes all ethical, moral and logical inhibitions and constraints in criticizing and deriding. ? Thus, Fournet sees no need to acquaint himself with any of the basic background material behind the book, and proudly proclaims his ignorance almost as a qualification: to begin with, he has not only not read my earlier books, but he finds that ? The book does not require any prior reading of the two other books by the same author, which were on the same topic ?. In the same vein: ? We are not a specialist in Vedic or Indo-Iranian studies ?; ? Before reading the book, we had about no expertise on the OIT, apart from the vague idea that the OIT tries to promote India as a possible homeland of the Proto-Indo-European language ?; ? we would have appreciated to see what evidence in the Rig-Veda substantiates the claim of ?a mighty Sarasvat? in full powerful flow?. Be it right or wrong, and we have no opinion, such a claim requires to be duly documented and proved by a philological analysis, and this analysis is lacking ?; ? the tribe names, Druhyus, Anus and P?rus ? we have not checked that point ? [?] The pages (258-273) are dedicated to an outpour of considerations on typically Indian cultural items, among which the Druhyus, Anus and P?rus ?tribal conglomerates?. We are not familiar with these items and we cannot describe what added value this section of the book might bring. ?; ? The book ends with the evocation of the ? Battle of the Ten Kings? (p.370). We must confess to having never read or heard what this epical event is ?. ? Can a person who has not read the two earlier books ? on the same topic ? by me, who knows little about Vedic or Indo-Iranian studies, who knows virtually nothing about the OIT, who knows so little about the Rigveda that he does not know that the Rigveda speaks of a mighty Sarasvat? in full powerful flow, and has never heard about Druhyus, Anus and P?rus, or about the Battle of the Ten Kings, presume to write a review of my third book which claims to be the Final Evidence on the subject of Vedic and Indo-Iranian history (within four days of receipt of the book: he received it on 18/5/2009, while the ?review? was first posted on 22/05/2009) ? a ?review? claiming to be so accurate (? accurate enough for people to assess what the book is, when they have not read it themselves ?) that it can eliminate the need for his reader to expect anything more substantial or illuminating from a direct perusal of the book? ? As we proceed with our examination of his critique, it will be clear from his criticism not only a) that he is proudly ignorant about all the background issues which form the topic of my three books, b) that he has not read what I have written in my two earlier books with which this third book forms a continuum, and c) that, even as far as this third book itself is concerned, he has completely ignored all the masses of ? frequent interruptions of the text ? in the form of references, data and statistics; but also, d) that he has not bothered or seen the need to really read even the ? text ? of this third book, beyond searching for passages for quotation, or scouring the text to count the number of times I have used certain words, or checking out which words are ?missing? in my book, or hunting out words which he can subject to a long discussion in order to allege a semantically wrong use of those words by me ? the most telling testimony to this is the fact that he comes across any reference to the Battle of the Ten Kings for the first and last time only in the last paragraph of my book (p.370) ! e) that even the portions he has quoted often include only parts of sentences, wherein his criticism shows that he has not read the other parts of the very sentences that he is actually quoting, and f) that even when he quotes full sentences, he is not able to understand what he has read and quoted. ? All this makes it all the more of a joke when he tries to copy Witzel?s tactic of listing out things which I ?do not know? and ?have not mentioned? in order to show my alleged ignorance about the subject or my alleged failure to understand the issues involved. ? Now an examination of Fournet?s ? real issues ?, which will help us to understand his agenda and his methods, as also to comprehend the psychological and intellectual level of his ?review?: ? 1. The smell and colour of my book : The first ? real issue ? for Fournet, is the smell and colour of my book: ? The first contact with the book has reminded us of a Sanskrit grammar we bought in China some years ago and which is our main source on that language: Fan Yu KeBen. The size, the smell, the pages, both whitish and yellowish, have kindled the same impression ?. The smell and colour of the book (which I at least do not find notably different from the smell and colour of the books published by any normal western publishing house: if anything, Aditya Prakashan books are notably better than most of them) are obviously ? real issues ? more worthy of notice and comment than the copious ? interruptions ? in the form of references, data and statistics. ? ? 2. Review-politics : Even the very fact that the book was sent to him for review by Koenraad Elst is a ? real issue ? worthy of snide comment. Fournet takes care to inform us at the very outset of the ?review? that the book has been reviewed more or less as a favour to Koenraad Elst: ? The copy, received 05/18/2009, was sent by Koenraad Elst, a personal friend of the author, after we accepted his proposal to (try to) review it. For the sake of courtesy, we had proposed that our review could be read by the author before being made public, but this proposal has been rejected by K. Elst. We have never had direct contact with the author .? Fournet ends his ?review? with the remark: ? We are still wondering why K. Elst has proposed that we (try to) make a review of Mr. Shrikant Talageri?s book. We are not sure that our review is what they have expected. ? ? Koenraad Elst, at my own general request in the first flush of publication of the book, proposed sending my book for possible review to various people. That is the standard procedure when a new book is published, when a debate or discussion is sought to be initiated on the contents of the book. The proposed reviewer, naturally, always has the right, for whatever reason or even without assigning any reason, to refuse to review the book; or, if he reviews it, to criticize it in all legitimate terms (and even, I suppose, if that is his nature, in illegitimate terms). What distinguishes Fournet is his unique and peculiar code of ? courtesy ? whereby he reviews the book, but at the same time takes care to suggest in the body of his review a) that the review is more or less being undertaken almost as a favour, b) that the author was indirectly offered the chance to read the review before it was made public (perhaps in the expectation that the author would be so terrified on reading his devastating critique that he would desperately plead for a kinder review, and this plea could also then be jeeringly publicized in the body of the ?review? when finally published?), c) that the author and his friend confidently expected a glowingly favourable review and would probably be embarrassed at it turning out to be a critical one after all, and d) that he himself is ultimately mystified as to why he was ever approached at all to do the review (but not, apparently, about why he did ultimately review it!). In truth, I am equally mystified on this point. On being asked, Koenraad told me that Fournet was a writer with ?unconventional? ideas, and therefore he (Koenraad) felt that he would be more receptive to ?new ideas?. Apparently Koenraad felt that having ?unconventional? ideas was a qualification of an open and honest mind, and also that this assumed qualification was sufficient to automatically eliminate the need to have the ability to read and the brains to understand what one is reading! ? ? 3. Fournet?s mental trauma : The tumultuous emotions that raced through Fournet?s breast as he ploughed his way through the book is also another ? real issue ? eloquently placed before the readers. A sample: ?[?] In the course of reviewing the book, in the middle of the reading of section 2, we realized that the self-imposed goal of remaining neutral made increasingly no sense. We erased neutral and chose empathetic, because this word expresses open-mindedness without hostility or assent. After that, a deeper understanding of the way the author uses some key words and of their real meanings and implicit presuppositions made it clear that the word empathetic may be misinterpreted as a kind of implicit assent. We then opted from the somehow psychoanalytical anamnetic, which expresses our distantiated conviction that we have reached deeper and deeper layers of the mental construction of the author?s OIT: the explicit contents, the implicit framework, the key words and the political vested interests. During that process of anamnesis of the author?s version of the OIT, we have been successively disconcerted, assiduous, amazed and frightened [...]?. ? The above, incidentally, is a representative sample of the style of the entire review, like that of an essay written by a school student for an elocution competition: pedantic and flowery language, with verbose and pompous words, phrases and sentences to be delivered with the right melodramatic pauses, intonations, expressions and gestures. ? ? 4. Pedantry in academic writing : After his outpourings on his feelings while reading my book, Fournet turns to my bibliography, followed by my preface. A little later, he turns to the textual organization of the book and the fonts used by me. Still later, he refers to the maps in my book. At the end of his review, he refers to my index. We will take up these issues here ? bibliography, preface, textual organization, fonts, maps and index ? as they all fall in one broad category of incidental aspects of the book as distinct from the direct subject matter of the book in the form of data, facts, evidence and conclusions. ? Since the facts, data, statistics and evidence given by me are to be ignored as non-issues , these become the ? real issues ? in his review. As in Witzel?s ?review? of my second book, every failure on my part to follow the reviewer?s views on the proper table manners and etiquette of academic writing (i.e. academic equivalences , in my writing, to a failure to use the right knife, fork or spoon while eating different dishes, to keep the cutlery and napkin in the right place, to start and to stop eating a particular course at the correct moment, to open and close my mouth in the right manner while eating, to chew the food the requisite number of times, to follow the correct rules of table conversation, to sit in the right position and at the correct angle, etc.) becomes a major ? real issue ?, and every comment by the ?reviewer? on each of these ?failures? becomes a devastating indictment of my book, of my theory, of the evidence presented by me, and of the OIT itself. It shows not only that I do not know ? how to write a book ?, but automatically also that I do not ? understand what the issues are about ?! ? Since the criticisms are mainly pedantic or polemical, my reply to them will be on the same level: ? My bibliography : Fournet begins by noting that the bibliography is ? very short for such an issue as the PIE homeland ?. This comment is superfluous since I have made the following clear statement in the preface: ? I have not adopted, and will never adopt, the fraudulent system of providing long bibliographies containing the name of every single book ever read by me (not to mention books not read by me but culled from the bibliographies of other books). The only books in my bibliography are those books actually quoted by me, and those referred to in any significant context ?. Fournet quotes only the last part of this statement, and takes comfort in thinking he has discovered the following which gives the lie to my claim: ? It must nevertheless be noted that Oldenberg. 1888. Prolegomena, are discussed and cited in the chapter 4 but do not appear in the bibliography ?. While it is true that Oldenberg?s Prolegomena not being included in the bibliography is an omission, it does not really give the lie to my claim: if Fournet had understood English, he would have realized that what would have given the lie to my claim is not omissions , but inclusions in my bibliography of books neither actually quoted by me nor referred to in any significant context. ? Fournet continues: ? it contains very few works with a real linguistic content. Paradoxically, (historical) linguistics is nearly completely absent in a book that claims to deal with the issue of the PIE homeland ?. Here we see the familiar tactic of continuously demanding what is not in the book instead of examining what is actually there! Fournet shows clearly that he has totally failed to understand what my book is all about: the very title of the book indicates that the central topic of the book is a textual exegesis of the Rigveda and the Avesta, and this is the subject matter of the first section, which constitutes the bulk of my book. There is hardly any place for general linguistic discussions in this section. The second section of my book also has little place for books containing general discussions on linguistics, even Indo-European linguistics (indeed, the writings on every single technical aspect, and item of data, concerning every single branch of study of Indo-European linguistics, could fill out a number of encyclopaediac volumes or even a small library), except where they contained data, discussions or arguments pertaining to the debate on the geographical location of the Indo-European homeland, and relevant to the subjects under discussion . So, in view of my ethical refusal to fraudulently list out in my bibliography long lists of books read and unread just to show my erudition (take any article or paper by Witzel, for example, and see how many of the endless number of books listed in the bibliography really have any place in the concerned article), my bibliography contains just the right number of books dealing with (the relevant aspects of) linguistics. ? After a critical reference to the book by Chang, 1988, quoted by me, Fournet resorts to the following year-wise analysis of the books in my bibliography: ? the years of publication of the 73 references listed in the bibliography are: before 1906 7 books, between 1907 and 1985 14, after 1986 52. We cannot believe that so little worth quoting has been written during the 80 years from 1906 to 1986 on the issue of the PIE homeland. What is more, 23 out of the 52 modern references are from Talageri himself or from Witzel ?. Fournet clearly has no idea at all what my book is about, not having seen the need to read it before reviewing it. Naturally, the majority of the books quoted are after 1986, since it is in the last twenty years that the Indo-European homeland question has hotted up, and all the various pros and cons of the AIT-vs.-OIT debate have been vigorously debated (and the linguistic aspects mainly by Witzel and myself, and also Hock as quoted in my book), including points and arguments made in earlier publications . The early foundations of Indological study go back mainly into the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, so again some books of that period are likely to be quoted. Given the subject matter of this book, very little indeed ? worth quoting has been written during the 80 years from 1906 to 1986 on the issue of the PIE homeland ?. In any case, I was not aware that scholarly etiquette demands that when quoting from different books, a writer is supposed to meticulously allot an impartial quota of an equal number of books for every year or decade! Further: ? some books have been selected and quoted more or less extensively because they agree with the author. From the textual and argumentative point of view, this practice adds nothing real and could be avoided. It amounts to pro domo propaganda ?. Nothing exposes the bias and hostility behind this fake ?review? more than these comments. To begin with, not one single OIT writer has been quoted by me throughout the entire book: all the quotations without exception are from the scholarly writings of AIT scholars i.e. scholars who would implicitly or explicitly be on the AIT side in any debate (although I have given due credit to two OIT supporting writers, on pp.102 and 338, when I have made certain points; but I have not actually quoted these two writers, both of whom are non-Indian and both hostile to me, and nor are they a part of the bibliography under criticism). If the writings of these AIT scholars ? agree with the author ?, surely it is something for Fournet to ponder over seriously instead of branding it as ? propaganda ?. But these ? agreeable ? quotations are not the only ones quoted by me: I have also quoted and exposed the fallacy of almost as many AIT arguments which do not ? agree with ? me (Witzel, Hock, Lubotsky, etc.). All this is apart from the fact that the overwhelmingly largest number of references in my book are not from any writers, AIT or OIT, but directly from the original sources : the Rigveda and the Avesta ? and it is these original references that polemicists like Fournet and Witzel dread the most and avoid like the plague. ? ? My preface : The first thing Fournet points out about the preface is the following: ? The Preface (21 p) actually starts on page XVIII and not XV as indicated in the contents ?. Obviously, I cannot answer for this printer?s or publisher?s error. ? He then notes: ? the preface includes a listing of ?errors? and ?mistakes? made in the author?s previous works [?] This could have been preferably located somewhere else, after the bibliography for example ?. So far, this criticism is legitimate: I, in hindsight, would go further and say that this list of errors was really an unnecessary ? interruption ? not only in the preface but in the book itself, and could even have been dispensed with altogether. But Fournet does not stop here; he goes on to make the following pointless and petty comment: ? The meaning of these errata in the preface seems to be that the author has made his own mea culpa and that other people, presumably non OIT supporters, should do the same ?! Freud? Holmes? No, it?s Hercule Fournet! [Fournet tells us a little later on that the book ? can be read in a [sic] several ways: a surface reading of what the writer writes explicitly and deeper readings of what he assumes and thinks but does not write ?. Clearly, this master psychologist cum detective has no place for the explicit data given on the ? surface ? and his whole ?review? is based on these brilliant ? deeper ? pieces of Hercule Fournetian mind-reading, as we will see many times in his review!]. ? About my claim in the preface that my book would prove conclusively that India was the original homeland of the Indo-European family of languages, Fournet makes the following profound observation: ? It can be underlined that the wording is ?homeland of the Indo-European family of languages? and not ?(Proto-)Indo-European homeland? ?! In continuation of this diversionary play on words, Fournet continues: ? The author mentions the word ?Proto-Indo-European? only once, when referring to Hock?s works: ?the Proto-Indo-European language (as much ancestral to Vedic as to the other ancient Indo-European languages)? (p.210). This hapax word is not listed in the index. The author claims to have found the location of something that he about never describes by its name ? (note again the profundity of the last sentence!). Apart from scouring my book to find out which words are missing in my book which he feels should have been there, or in examining the semantic sense in which I have in his opinion misused certain other words, one more aspect of Fournet?s ?review? consists in counting the number of times I have used certain words. But he does not seem to have been very meticulous even in this utterly pointless venture: the phrase ?Proto-Indo-European? is found at least 25 times in my book in this full form, and at least 40 times in the form PIE, and the word ?Indo-European homeland? is found at least 8 times (notably even in the very title of the second section of the book)! ? Fournet?s criticism of my preface also includes a polemical monologue on the phrases AIT and OIT, apparently provoked by my references to the AIT-vs.-OIT debate in my preface. This we will examine separately. ? ? The textual organization of my book : Fournet tells us at the very beginning of his review: ? The book does not have an explicit conclusion ?. Later, he goes into more details about how ? the textual organization of the book is unusual and defective ?: ? ? There is no explicit conclusion, the preface includes errata for previous books and transliteration conventions. The section 1 includes subchapters with titles like Appendix 1 and 2 and Footnote that are in fact incorporated in the body of the text. [?] The book does not begin with a programmatic presentation of what the author plans to state or prove in the section 1. [?] The multiple goals, compounded with the defective textual organization of the book, contribute to the opacity and lack of fluidity of the section ? ? He writes that it is difficult to know ? what the author plans to state or prove in the [sic] section 1 ? since I do not ? begin with a programmatic presentation ? of it, but immediately tells us that his own ? understanding is that he wants to clear several issues at the same time: one is the relative chronology of the books and hymns of the Rig-Veda, another is their absolute chronology, another is the relative chronology of the Rig-Veda and the Avesta, another is to argument [sic] in favor of the supposed westward movements of the Rig-Vedic Indo-Aryans, one more is to expose the perceived fraudulences of the so-called Western scholarship, as exemplified by Witzel ?. Now obviously Fournet does not get all this ? understanding ? from his brilliant detective abilities but from the very title of the section itself, as well as from the titles of the chapters and sub-chapters and headings and sub-headings, quite apart from the fact that the first few paragraphs of every chapter state very clearly what ? the author plans to state or prove ? in that chapter, and the conclusions arising from the data in each chapter and sub-chapter are repeatedly hammered into the readers? attention throughout the concerned chapters and sub-chapters. ? Each chapter is a step-by-step progression from one point to the next: the first two chapters show that the common ?Indo-Iranian? culture originated in the Late Rigvedic period; the third shows us where the Indo-Aryans and proto-Iranians were (i.e. deeper inside India, and not in Central Asia) in the period preceding this period of development of a common culture; and the fourth clarifies how the chronological basis behind all these conclusions is not just the internal chronology of the books postulated by me but the one agreed upon by a consensus of western scholars from Oldenberg through Witzel to Proferes. The fifth chapter analyses the Mitanni Indo-Aryan names and shows how this analysis parallels the analysis of Avestan names in chapter one; and the sixth one shows how this Mitanni data now allows us to arrive at a rough absolute chronology for the Late books of the Rigveda. And, as Fournet himself puts it, ? repetitions and refinements of some key points provide a helpful guideline as to where the author is ultimately going ?. Obviously, no amount of (more) spoon-feeding could have sufficed to prevent these determinedly querulous complaints. ? About my preface, yes, I could have included the transliteration conventions elsewhere, and, as already stated, dispensed altogether with the errata. But, my inclusion of a Footnote as a subchapter in chapter one, and Appendices 1 and 2 as subchapters in chapters 3 and 4, was very logical: those subchapters pertained only to the particular chapters concerned and not to the section as a whole. And yet, they needed to be distinguished from the main point of the chapters concerned: e.g. the main point of chapter 4 was that the internal chronology of the Rigveda, on the basis of which one inevitably arrives at the conclusions reached in the other chapters of section 1, is based on the consensus of western scholars , and that these conclusions simply cannot be rejected without rejecting altogether this consensus of two centuries. The matter in the appendices consisted merely of additional discussions on this internal chronology, so they were distinguished as appendices. The failure of a pedantic critic to understand this logic cannot be construed as a failure or shortcoming on my part. ??????? ? ? The fonts used by me : ? another feature is the letter fonts, sizes and cases which often vary within any given page. ? This is counted as ? one of the hindrances for the reader to understand what the author wants to say ?. Now, Fournet cannot be referring here to the ? fonts ? used for writing Vedic and Avestan words, since those are absolutely essential. He is therefore obviously referring to my use of italics and bold letters. ? I have used bold letters only in titles and sub-titles and also in two special circumstances: one, in every quotation from other writers, to distinguish what is being quoted from what I myself am writing, and two, in distinguishing the hymn number from the verse number in giving references from the Rigveda. Also, in chapter one, they are statedly used to highlight names common to the Rigveda and the Avesta. I think all these uses of bold letters should in fact be useful in helping the reader to understand better what I want to say. ? Likewise, the different ? sizes ? of the fonts are also used only in titles and sub-titles; and as for ? cases ?, capital letters are likewise used in titles and sub-titles, and in giving references of books, e.g. WITZEL 1995b:35. Italics are also often used for specific purposes: in chapter one, they are used to distinguish the common (to the Rigveda and the Avesta) half of the names from the other parts. Again, all this should be useful to readers, rather than a ? hindrance ?. ? In the case of italics, perhaps I have the habit of using them a bit too much to emphasize words (apart from the fact that the printers have wrongly used italics in subtitles in chapters 2 and 3 where I had indicated bold letters), but that happens to be my style of writing, and I think, like every other writer, I too have the right to my own way of writing. Some of it may be very irritating to many readers; but if any of this actually prevents the reader from understanding what I want to say, it can only be if the reader, like Fournet, has set out determined not to understand what I want to say. ? ? My maps : About the maps in my book: ? the pages (p.213-258) are dedicated to a detailed description of the scenario proposed by the author, with 6 maps and their related comments. At the first look, we have not been able to understand what the area on the low-quality maps was. The maps are centered on Afghanistan with present-day borders of the different states surrounding Afghanistan ?. ? To begin with, if he is able to immediately tell us that the ? maps are centered on Afghanistan with present-day borders of the different states surrounding Afghanistan ?, what was the need to first claim that he was not able to understand what the area on the maps was? ? He describes the functional maps as ? low-quality ?, and earlier in his review, he jibes that ? a map like the one Talageri?s book displays on p.226 could have been printed in Pictet?s book in 1859 ?. (Complete with the borders of post-1947 India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, and with the inclusion of Anatolian and Tocharian, both identified as Indo-European only in the early twentieth century)? ? The above comments are not only cheap, they are also cowardly: would Fournet have had the guts to say the same thing about, for example, the map depicted on pps.294-295 of H. H. Hock?s article ?Historical Interpretation of the Vedic Texts?, in the Volume ?The Indo-Aryan Controversy: Evidence and inference in Indian history?, Routledge, London and New York (Indian edition), 2005? They are not only as functional (? low-quality ?) as my own maps, they are also much, much less accurate: in the maps, the Indus throughout seems to flow from well within the borders of present-day India before flowing out through Gujarat, to the east and south of the gulf of Kutch, rather than through Pakistan and out through Sind . Further, Fournet complains: ? The borders of the former Soviet republics ( Uzbekistan , Kirghiztan , Kazakhstan ) are missing ? on my map. All borders are missing in Hock?s map, including those of India , Pakistan and Afghanistan . ? ? My index : ? The Index is divided in two: a General Index and a Sanskrit Word Index. Some words are conspicuously absent from the index: AIT (but not OIT), PIE, proto-language, PreRigVedic (but not PostRigVedic). K.Elst is cited in the index in bold type with no page number. ????? ? Criticisms of structural things, like the preface, bibliography, maps, fonts, index, and the names and arrangements of the chapters and sub-chapters (sections) of a book, must, in general, necessarily be subjective, since in most of these matters the author must be the natural person to decide what is best suited for his purpose in each of these respects. ? Moreover, such criticism is always grossly disproportionate and dishonest (besides being totally inadequate as a substitute for criticizing the actual data and logic presented in the book). About his petty criticism of my index: I can genuinely say my index is the most complete index possible necessary for any analytical study of the material presented in my book , unlike my two earlier books whose indices had not been prepared by me and in which many key words in those books are missing in the index. Of course words like ? AIT (but not OIT), PIE, proto-language, PreRigVedic (but not PostRigVedic) ? are absent from the index, but so are words like Aryan (but not ?rya), Indo-European, Rigveda and Rigvedic, and most of the (Rigvedic and Avestan) personal names in the book except those discussed or mentioned in the book in a distinctive or important context. Words which refer to the central theme of the entire book and are therefore not reference-specific, as well as words not mentioned in my book in any important quotable or referable context, are obviously excluded from my index. Such criticism for the sake of criticism can be made of any book: I challenge Fournet to send me a complete book written by him, and I will produce a long, and much more relevant (than the words cited by him) list of words from his book which are ? conspicuously absent from the index ?. [Incidentally, Elst in the index in bold type with no page number is a printer?s or publisher?s error for which I am not answerable]. ? ? 5. AIT-vs.-OIT : Included in the preface is a polemical monologue on the terms AIT and OIT which contains many profound gems. But first, a look at two instances in this monologue where Fournet tries to show up my ignorance, by citing things of which I am supposed to be ? unaware ?, and only ends up showing his own ignorance: ? One: ?[?] there are several competing theories about the PIE homeland, other than the OIT, which differ both in datation (from the Paleolithic to the early Neolithic to the late Neolithic) and in location (from the North Pole to the Balkans to Southern Russia to Anatolia ). What the author (and presumably the other OIT supporters) calls the AIT is to be understood as one of the mainstream theories: the one which describes a homeland in the Pontico-Caspian area in Southern Russia and a dispersal of the original community around -4000 BC. The bibliography includes two books: from Mallory, who supports this Pontico-Caspian homeland, and from Gamkrelidze and Ivanov, who support Eastern Anatolia as original homeland. Talageri seems to be unaware that his short bibliography includes two works proposing two theories ?. If Fournet had done his homework, he would have seen repeated references in this book, as well as in my second one, to Gamkrelidze?s Anatolian homeland theory as a distinct one from the Pontic-Caspian homeland theory: in this very book, notably on p. 222-23 (where in fact, in a sense, the Anatolian theory is even bracketed together with the OIT rather than with the Pontic-Caspian theory !) and on p.246. This is apart from the different homeland theories referred to in my first book, and the detailed analysis of Tilak?s Arctic theory in my second one.???? ? Two: ? The author seems to be unaware that the OIT has nothing revolutionary at all and that the OIT theory is one of the first theories developed by European scholars in the XIXth century and one of the first to have been dismissed ?. Again, if Fournet had done his homework, he would have known that this fact, that the Indian Homeland theory was one of the earliest theories which was later dismissed, is one of the favourite talking points for those writers from the OIT side who, like Fournet from the AIT side, concentrate only on polemics and rhetoric, and therefore only a particularly na?ve or stupid person would assume that I could be ? unaware ? of it. It is, moreover, referred to by me in my first book which discusses the history of the homeland debate. As for the word ?revolutionary?, it does not simply mean ?new? or ?for the first time?; it means ?something which introduces radical change?, even if it is the revival of an old idea or system ; and the OIT, when it is accepted, will certainly introduce a radical change in the writing of world history. ? Fournet objects to the word ?revolutionary? above, and later on also to the phrase ?new hypothesis?: ? the OIT is not a ?new hypothesis? (p.XIX) but one of the oldest theories dismissed more than a century ago ?, and even quotes in detail two eighteenth-nineteenth century European writers who need not concern us here (incidentally, for some unknown reason he chooses to quote a writer who advocates the ? vast plateau of Iran ? rather than India as the homeland!). Here Fournet deliberately obfuscates the meaning of what I have written: I have not claimed that the OIT itself is a ? new hypothesis ? but that the particular OIT hypothesis presented in my book is one: the full sentence used by me on p.XIX, which Fournet does not quote, is as follows: ? it is easier to attack the nonsensical notions and wishful writings of more casual or biased OIT writers than to deal with a logical and unassailable new hypothesis backed by a solid phalanx of facts and data ?. My hypothesis (as opposed to the ?Sanskrit-origin? hypotheses of most OIT writers) is a new ?PIE-in-India? hypothesis backed by a completely new and unassailable range of data, evidence and arguments. ? The monologue on AIT-vs.-OIT contains many such ?time pass? comments and objections [It also contains a longish illustration of the writings of some eighteenth century French writer, which we can safely ignore]: ? Fournet basically objects to the very terms OIT and AIT. He attributes this ? creation of an alternative between OIT or AIT ? to the OIT writers: he calls the AIT a label ? created by the OIT supporters ?, and refers to the OIT as ? what is called the ?Out of India Theory? by the author and the other OIT supporters. It can be added that the same name is used by the non supporters to describe the OIT ?. So far as the term OIT is concerned, it was actually coined by the AIT writers themselves (perhaps to rhyme with AIT): it was not used by me even once in my two earlier books. So I cannot answer for this term. ? But, the phrase ?Aryan Invasion Theory? ? shortened to AIT again by the AIT writers themselves ? was first used, in the present debate, by me in the title of my first book in 1993, ?The Aryan Invasion Theory and Indian Nationalism?. So let us see Fournet?s querulous objections to this term: ? Firstly, Fournet objects to this alternative between OIT and AIT since it lumps together all the other homeland theories other than the Indian homeland theory ? as if there were only one non Out-of-India Theory ?, clearly because it gives the Indian homeland theory a special position vis-?-vis the other homeland theories. But he deduces the answer to this objection himself in his Hercule Fournetian manner: ? A plausible explanation is that the author lumps together all these divergent theories into ?the AIT side? because they all share the feature of having Vedic and its present day daughter languages come from somewhere else than the present-day borders of India ?. Fournet does not realize how valid this explanation is (although his use of the phrase ? daughter languages ? shows he has not read pp.281-288 of my book, and is unaware of or oblivious to the complexities of so-called ?Indo-Aryan? linguistics): while the homeland debate on the linguistic side is primarily concerned with linguistic change and development and not with geography-specific data, the debate on the textual and inscriptional side is based primarily on the data in the Indo-Aryan Rigveda and the Iranian Avesta and secondarily on the data in the Hittite and (again Indo-Aryan) Mitanni-Kassite records, all of which are geography-specific. The Rigveda has been interpreted throughout as the record of the Vedic Aryans moving into the Vedic territory from the northwest/north/west. In this alleged movement, whether they originally, before they allegedly entered this territory from the northwest/north/west , came from South Russia, Anatolia, Eastern Europe or the North Pole, or somewhere else, is a negligible point in the data analysis, so all these homeland theories fall in one category. But if it is shown that they actually moved into this territory from the east/southeast , then the only homeland theory indicated, i.e. the Indian homeland theory, or OIT, obviously falls into a distinctly second alternative category. ? But Fournet also objects to the term AIT because of the word ?invasion? inherent in it. He tells us the AIT label ? created by the OIT supporters ? is ? not far from being a libel ? when it is ? used to describe present day scholarship?, since ?this kind of invasionist schemes was very much fashionable in the good old days of European colonialism [?] it has become unpalatable to everybody at the beginning of XXIst century ?. This kind of objection is only to be expected from Fournet, who has clearly not read the numerous internet debates in which the tendency of AIT writers to use terms like ?migration? and ?trickling-in?, even while they describe blatantly invasionist scenarios in detail, has been repeatedly exposed. He could read pps.317-322 of my book, for starters, very, very carefully ? particularly p.322. ? Like a na?ve child, Fournet also puts forward this objection: ? India did not exist thousands of years ago as a state and did not have (its present-day) borders ?, so we cannot describe an invasion ?of India ? in that remote period, nor perhaps talk of an ?Indian? homeland. So until we can specify with documentary proof what exactly every place in the world was named in the remote period under discussion, every geographical statement by us about that period using present-day geographical terms becomes redundant and wrong! If we prove that the original homeland was within India , we are of course wrong because there was no ? India ? with ? (its present-day) borders ? at that time. Of course, when Fournet talks about ? Southern Russia ?, ? Anatolia ?, ? Balkans ?, and so on, all these territories existed since eternity with their ?present-day? borders and names! ? ? Fournet further fine-hones his objection: ? the concept of invasion, i.e. an instantaneous and conscious trespassing of an established state border, is absurd when dealing with Vedic times and the Antiquity (of whatever place) ?. How innocent and idyllic! Fournet is of course, unaware that the recorded history of West Asia ? even before the date of 1500 BCE postulated for the alleged Aryan invasion ? is full of descriptions of established states ( Egypt , Assyria , Persia , etc.) invading the territories of other established states. Or of the detailed descriptions in the Bible of the Jews coming from Egypt and invading established states in Palestine . And, certainly, of the fact that the Rigveda itself, in the description of the battle of the ten kings (which Fournet only encounters on the last page of my book), describes Sudas? invasion of the established states of the Anus. The city-states of the Indus Valley , whatever their identity, were certainly ?established states? before 1500 BCE, and it is their alleged invasion that the AIT definitely describes. ? Fournet uses the word ? libel ? to describe the use of the term AIT by the OIT writers; but indulges in genuinely libelous allegations himself without any compunctions: ? the reader is faced with the Orwellian threat that all the researches on the PIE homeland for centuries amount to an attempt to ?stifle the truth? (p.XXXIV) [?] or ?an all-out Goebbelsian campaign? (p.116) ?. Actually, on p.XXXIV, I have written: ? however much the entrenched AIT scholarship may succeed in stifling the truth today, they will not be able to do so for too long ?. I am talking of the present day pack of jokers like Witzel and Farmer (and now Fournet) and the entrenched political ?scholars? in Indian and western academia who will try to stifle the truth written in my present book (published in the year 2008). And, on p.116, I am talking about the all-out Goebbelsian campaign (a very mild term in the circumstances) in present day India to deny the very existence of a Sarasvati river which flowed through ancient India . Neither of the two instances refers to ? all the researches on the PIE homeland for centuries ?. The second expressly cannot, since I expressly point out on p.116 that this Goebbelsian campaign goes against what ? all the researches for centuries ? have unanimously upheld! ? Further, I have not only never accused two centuries of scholarship of trying to ? stifle the truth ?, but I have frequently expressly dissociated myself from the tendency of many OIT writers to see a colonial conspiracy in the writings of the early AIT scholars. In my first book (1993), I have given the history of the AIT without even hinting that it was anything but a purely academic theory in its origins. In my second book (2000), I have expressly pointed out that the western Indological scholars ? were, by and large, reasonably honest; and although they were often wrong, they were naturally wrong and not deliberately so ? (p.404). In fact, I am quite certain that most of these Indologists, if they had been alive today, would not only have been deeply interested in, but even genuinely excited about, the masses of original data and conclusions given in the first section of my third book under discussion; and many would have accepted my conclusions and treated my book as a starting point for new lines of research. Even if this sounds unlikely to the reader, it should at least be clear from all this that Fournet?s accusation that I have claimed that ? all the researches on the PIE homeland for centuries amount to an attempt to ?stifle the truth? ? is nothing but pure libel. ? ???? ? 6. The Mitanni evidence : After the above monologue on the terms AIT and OIT, Fournet takes up his casual dismissal of the massive data and evidence in the first section of my book, already dealt with in the first section of this reply. We will only take up here some specific grouses about the Mitanni evidence. ? Fournet dismisses the unassailable evidence of the Mitanni names in chapter five, which fits in perfectly with the identical evidence of the Avestan nanes in chapter one , with the hypocritical and escapist charge that these are ? limited lexical items written in a fairly obscure graphic system ?. Typically, he expects to get away with a vague and unsubstantiated objection, and does not have the guts to point out exactly which, and how many, of the Mitanni names and name types listed by me are not actually there in the Mitanni data, and have only been invented by me or have been wrongly imagined as IA names by various western academic scholars due to a wrong reading of the ? obscure graphic system ? in which they were written. ? Fournet tells us: ? One of the few clear features is /azda/ attested in -1500BC in this Mitanni Indo-Aryan-oid language versus /eda/ attested one thousand years later in Vedic ?. He later adds: ? The phonetic change from Indo-Iranian */azda/ to Rig-Vedic /eda/ was already completed when the Rigveda was composed ?. Apart from Fournet?s new implied dating of the Rigveda to 500 BCE, this statement shows that he has not read my chapter very carefully. Unlike Fournet, who must have traveled back in time in a time machine to observe the Rigveda as it was pronounced when it was being composed, most other scholars believe that the Rigveda underwent phonetic changes between the time its various parts were composed and the time the text received its final form. Witzel puts it succinctly: ? certain sounds ? but not words, tonal accents, sentences ? have changed ?. Therefore, it is the ? limited lexical items ? in Mitanni , and not the sounds written in ? a fairly obscure graphic system ?, which can help us in placing the chronological position of the ancestral Mitanni ? Indo-Aryan-oid language ? vis-?-vis the Rigveda. ? Fournet has one more grouse: ? Moreover, the author does not address the issue of how Indo-Aryans coming from India could have moved through Iranians until reaching eastern Anatolia ?. Fournet is apparently unaware of the fact that, in the history of mankind, countless peoples and tribes have migrated from one part of the world to another, ? moving through ? countless other peoples and tribes in the process. It is not clear exactly how and why this joker wanted me to ? address ? this ? issue ?. But, in the process, Fournet provides an alternative answer to his main objection about the /azda/ in Mitanni : this phonetic feature may, alternately, have been borrowed by the Mitanni ancestors from the Iranians during the period of sojourn and interaction with them as they ? moved through ? them. [Yes, phonetic features are borrowed by languages from other languages, although Fournet may act na?ve and innocent on this point as well. Even very unlikely features can be borrowed even from unrelated languages, like the tonal accents borrowed by the Vietnamese branch of the Austric languages from neighbouring Sino-Tibetan, or the clicking sounds borrowed by some non-Khoisan languages of South Africa from the Khoisan languages]. ? The lexical evidence, if ? limited ?, is total and uni-directional , and is supported by the exactly identical and massive evidence of the Avestan names in chapter one. And it is unassailable evidence. And no amount of blustering can change this fact. ? 7. ?Indo-Iranian? : Next in line in Fournet?s review is a longish monologue on the term and concept of ?Indo-Iranian?. It starts with a rejection of my 2000 year period for the composition of the Rigveda. Now the western scholars and I are both in agreement that the final point of composition of the Rigveda was somewhere in the mid-second millennium BCE. But the western scholars place the beginnings of the composition of the Rigveda also somewhere in the same period, and have a total span for the period of composition as a few centuries in the second half of the second millennium BCE. I have shown in Section I of my book that the beginnings of the composition of the hymns of the Late Books of the Rigveda go back deep into the third millennium BCE: I will not repeat all the data and evidence here since it is unassailable evidence which has been presented in full detail in my book for anyone to see. The composition of the Middle Books and before that of the Early Books must therefore go back much further. My period of 2000 years is therefore closer to the truth than the few centuries of the western scholars. There is no sense in bandying polemical arguments on this subject with a polemicist like Fournet. ? The rest of the monologue is a vicious and mindless diatribe against what Fournet wants his readers to believe is my ? fixist and anti-evolutionist ? portrayal of the ?Indo-Iranians? [Taking a leaf out of Fournet?s book, I counted the number of times this picturesque polemical phrase is used in the review, and counted no less than seven occurrences, in which my ? mind-set ? (twice), my ? framework ? (thrice), my ? stance ? (once), and my ? approach ? (once), are all classified as ? fixist and anti-evolutionist ?]. His main claim is that I deny both the existence of the Indo-Iranians as a ? unique ethnocultural community ? as well as the inherited Indo-European heritage. But all this repetitive ranting and raving is best read in his own colourful words: ? ? ? What is constructed in the section 1 is an ?Indo-Iranian period? (just a period not a unique ethnocultural community) and two ethnocultural entities, the ?proto-Iranians? and ?the Vedic Aryans?, which have been in ?continuous interaction? (p.3) during that particular and specific period, but, as we will see, were previously completely independent. What the Avesta and the Rig-Veda share and have in common originates in this punctual rather than continuous interaction. From the very first page, the implicit model used by the author to account for the linguistic and cultural features shared by the Indo-Aryan and Iranian languages is an areal diffusionist model. The key words are ?interaction?, ?shared(d)?, ?common? and ?spread?. [?] In other words, as far back as ?originally? may go, Proto-Iranians and Vedic Aryans have never been one ethnocultural community and everything is the result of contacts and ?continuous interaction? (p.3) limited to a specific and late period and nothing has ever been inherited from common ancestors. [?] the author negates the very fact that the ethnocultural Indo-Iranian community could ever have existed [?] the key point stated by the author is that Vedic Aryans have been something different from (and as we will see hostile to) Proto-Iranians as far back as ?originally? may go. In the fixist and anti-evolutionist mind-set of the author, they have no shared ancestors, they have no shared homeland, they have no shared ethnocultural heritage. [?] What the author calls heritage and common tradition are ethnocultural features recently acquired because the two entities: Indo-Aryans and Proto-Iranians have lately come to interact. But before they came in contact, i.e. ?originally?, they were completely isolated and disconnected [?] the concept of proto-Indo-Iranian as a proto-language spoken by proto-Indo-Iranian people as a unique prehistorical human community is completely negated by the theory of the author. What the author has in mind is an ethnocultural sandglass model: at a late period, after they had already started composing the Rig-Veda, Indo-Aryans, who originally had always been on their own in the east, came in contact, for whatever unknown reasons, with others, who were their north-western neighbours, i.e. Proto-Iranians, and they then acquired what they have in common and subsequently retained those late acquired features, the product of late contacts, which the author labels ?a common culture? and a ?heritage? resulting from ?continuous interaction? in a spurious and misleading fashion. A fortiori, the concept of Proto-Indo-European as a proto-language spoken by a unique prehistorical human community does not exist, because the sandglass model of the author is a one-shot sandglass model. [?] There is three instances of the word ?heritage? on p.258-259. But this changes nothing to the fact that ?Indo-Aryans and Iranians have been neighbors to this day? (p.258). Neighbors and nothing more ?. Phew!! ? Now what has provoked all this passionate ranting and raving? The fact is that Fournet is totally unacquainted with the Indo-Iranian question (? We are not a specialist in Vedic or Indo-Iranian studies ?). And at the same time he has certain dogmas on this matter installed in his brain. Like all people with half-baked knowledge and a dogmatic disposition, any blasphemy against his accepted dogmas drives him into a frenzy of passion; and facts and data which go against his dogmas, even more so. And when you add, to all this, his tendency to ?review? and condemn without reading , the effect is explosive. ? His main dogma is that the Proto-Iranians and Proto-Indo-Aryans were one ? unique prehistorical human community ? rather than ? two ethnocultural entities, the ?proto-Iranians? and ?the Vedic Aryans?, which have been in ?continuous interaction? ?. I have quoted two scholars who have stated the facts very clearly: Meillet in 1908, who pointed out that ? Indic and Iranian developed from different Indo-European dialects, whose period of common development was not long enough to effect total fusion ?, and Winn in 1995, who also pointed out that there are ? ten ?living branches? [?.] Two branches, Indic (Indo-Aryan) and Iranian dominate the eastern cluster. Because of the close links between their classical forms ? Sanskrit and Avestan respectively ? these languages are often grouped together as a single Indo-Iranian branch. [?.] a period of close contact between the Indic and Iranian people brought about linguistic convergence, thus making the two languages misleadingly similar ?. [Incidentally, note the word ? developed ?/? development ? as used by Meillet above, which is also a word which drives Fournet into a frenzy of passion, as we will see later]. Even Witzel?s partner in his BMAC theory, Lubotsky, concedes in 2001: ? In the case of Indo-Iranian, there may have been early differentiation between the Indo-Aryan and Iranian branches, especially if we assume that the Iranian loss of aspiration in voiced aspirated stops was a dialectal feature which Iranian shared with Balto-Slavic and Germanic (cf. Kortlandt 1978:115) ?. Apart from this feature mentioned by Lubotsky, there are other important isoglosses which separate Vedic Indo-Aryan and Iranian, and place Vedic Indo-Aryan as distinct from a dialect group consisting of the other ?Last Dialects?, Iranian, Greek and Armenian: the conversion of certain particular positions of into , and the change of PIE *tt to ss.?? ? Childish outbursts like ? everything is the result of contacts and ?continuous interaction? (p.3) limited to a specific and late period and nothing has ever been inherited from common ancestors ?, and ? they have no shared ancestors, they have no shared homeland, they have no shared ethnocultural heritage ? are also totally unwarranted. If I point out, with data and evidence , that the common cultural heritage in the Rigveda and the Avesta represents mainly the culture acquired in a late period, i.e. in the Late Rigvedic period, it cannot be interpreted to mean that I say that they had no common ancestors etc. at all, except by a myopic polemicist like Fournet. Of course, as two branches of Indo-European languages, they have inherited a basic vocabulary and culture from the ancestral Proto-Indo-Europeans in common with the other branches; as geographically particularly close branches, they have developed many other features in common separate from the other branches. But these common features did not all come into being in one go at the time of the Big Bang: different periods saw different common features. ? It is this myopia that provokes pathetic digs like ? What the author calls heritage and common tradition are ethnocultural features recently acquired because the two entities: Indo-Aryans and Proto-Iranians have lately come to interact. But before they came in contact, i.e. ?originally?, they were completely isolated and disconnected ?, which are totally out of place. As I have pointed out in detail in all my books, the two ? entities ? were always in contact: the proto-Iranian priests, the Bhrgus, introduced fire-rituals to the Vedic Aryans in the pre-Rigvedic period, and Soma rituals in the early Rigvedic period. The two shared a common history in the Kurukshetra region, and as components of the broad ?Indo-Iranian? Harappan culture, in the Early and Middle Rigvedic periods. By the Late Rigvedic period, the centre of the Proto-Iranians had in fact shifted westwards to Afghanistan , but it was the period in which they developed a common name-culture; and the evidence of this name-culture, among other things, shows that this Late Rigvedic period was the period in which the earliest parts of the Avesta were composed. And, even post-Rigveda, the two cultures continued to develop common features like the upanayana / navjot ceremony and other ceremonies common to the Vedic and Zoroastrian religions, as well as some mutually antagonistic mythological or theological concepts (like the deva-asura opposition), all of which, as Humbach, quoted in my book, points out, ? suggests a synchrony between the later Vedic period and Zarathustra?s reform in Iran ? (i.e. eastern Iran or Afghanistan). ? ?????? ? Fournet?s has objections on more specific aspects of the Indo-Iranian evidence analysed by me: ? To begin with, he complains: ? Something that the author does not state in his summary is that the Indo-Iranian culture inherited a considerable number of ethnocultural and mythological items from the original PIE community, apart from words and grammar ?. Here, Fournet arbitrarily opens up the book, and then examines the page on which it opens up to see if he can find on that particular page any statement to the effect that ? the Indo-Iranian culture inherited a considerable number of ethnocultural and mythological items from the original PIE community, apart from words and grammar ?; and when he does not find it this means, of course, that I know nothing about these things. Since Fournet, as we know, has not done his homework, he is ? unaware ? that both my earlier books contained separate chapters on mythology which deal with this common mythological heritage in detail. The question of discussing this mythology, or any other common Indo-Iranian ? ethno-cultural items ? (like fire-worship, soma, the thread ceremony, etc., whether ? inherited from the original Indo-European community ? or developed, i.e. ? created ex-nihilo ?, by the Indo-Iranians) just did not arise in this book in the context of discussing the chronology and geography of the texts based on the distribution of different categories of names and words, although some of the ?items? are mentioned in the second section.???? ? Even in respect of the words and grammar, Fournet finds that I have been lax in detailing the Indo-European ? heritage ?: after some diligent checking of my book with a magnifying glass (e.g. ? a careful search has made nearly sure the [sic] section 1 never uses the word inherit(ed) ?), which must have taken up the major part of the four days which it took him to read my book and complete and upload his review, he writes: ? The book starts with an analysis of the person names found in the Avesta and the Rig-Veda, as listed by Mayrhofer. [?] It should be noted that many of these name-elements are morphemes obviously inherited from PIE but a conspicuous feature of the book is that it contains nearly no mention of any reconstructed PIE protoform. Most basic words generally appearing in the works and articles dealing with the Proto-Indo-European issues, like cognate word, change, phonetic, correspondence, proto-language, etc. are absent from the book. ? It is not clear why Fournet wants to find words ? like cognate word, change, phonetic, correspondence, proto-language, etc. ? This book is not an introductory book to the Indo-European problem ? Fournet can not complain about the fact that I have not reproduced the entire contents of my two earlier books in this one just for his benefit (and not that he would have read it if I had). And nor is it an etymological dictionary of the Proto-Indo-European language or a comparative dictionary of the Indo-European languages. I am analyzing the chronology and geography of the Rigveda and the Avesta in the first section of this book, and the various strands of evidence for locating the original homeland in India in the second. Technical discussions on the etymologies of words have no place at all in this analysis. But for these gutless ?reviewers?, keeping up a litany of querulous complaints about things I have not mentioned or written about is a clever and diversionary polemical substitute for having to deal with things that I have actually written about in detail . There was no reason for me to include unnecessary words, data or subjects in my book, unless as a pastime, or to increase the bulk of my book, or just to show my erudition. ? In this particular case cited by Fournet, for example, the ? reconstructed PIE protoforms ? of the common Indo-Iranian name elements were totally irrelevant: the relevant issue was not even whether the individual names were Indo-European or not, whether as ? inherited from PIE ? or as unique ?Indo-Iranian? words developed (=? created ex-nihilo ?) by the Indo-Iranians, or whether they were borrowed from some supposed BMAC language or some supposed ?language X? of the Indus Valley or from Semitic, Burushaski, Sino-Tibetan, Munda or Dravidian. The relevant issue was that this overwhelming mass of common name-culture, whatever its individual origins , is found among the Mitanni as the remnants of a dead ancestral heritage, and is found right from the oldest parts of the Avesta, but is found only in the ? most recent ? parts of the Rigveda and is completely missing in the parts which are ? admittedly the oldest ?. Clearly, there is method behind this joker trying to divert the discussion from the relevant issue. ? Fournet shows his total inability to comprehend what is placed before him, or even to use his brains and think, when he complains: ? Person names built with the same Indo-European components appearing in the Avesta and the Rig Veda are not inherited but ?came into vogue? (p.188) or ?have gone out of vogue? (p.44) ?. It is clear that this joker cannot even comprehend the difference between inherited roots and inherited names. Is it Fournet?s contention, for example, that the Rigvedic name Shyavashva (patronymic Shyavashvi, Avestan Siauuaspi) is actually a personal name inherited from the Proto-Indo-European community: i.e. that the Proto-Indo-Europeans had a personal name like *khy-e-H-ekhwos, which has been ? inherited ? by the Indo-Iranians? Since the components of the words tele-phone and tele-vision are also traceable to their Proto-Indo-European roots through Greek and Latin, are these words and concepts ? inherited ? from our Proto-Indo-European ancestors? Personal names do indeed come into existence, ?come into vogue?, and ?go out of vogue?, even if the root component parts of those names may have been in existence from long before. Fournet?s objection only shows up the pointlessness and inherent stupidity of his review. ? ? 8. The Evidence of the isoglosses : Fournet next moves on to the second section of my book, and starts out on his ?review? of chapter seven, ?The Evidence of the Isoglosses?. This part of his review covers three full sheets out of less than twelve sheets which constitute his review. Here Fournet is in his element since he does not have to face massive masses of unassailable data and references, and this leaves him with greater scope for glib polemical bluster and semantic hair splitting. Having abused the first section of the book all he can, Fournet now tells us: ? On the whole, the section 1 of the book can be rated as decent, in spite of its negation of the basic concepts of historical linguistics and of its inadequate textual organization, especially when compared to the section 2 ?. Chapter seven contains seven sections (or sub-chapters as Fournet calls them), of which the first five sections deal with the main subject embodied in the title: the first two A and B deal with Hock?s case for the evidence of the isoglosses (of which B deals with my examination of Hock?s case), and the next three sections C, D and E present my case for the evidence of the isoglosses. We will deal with Fournet?s ?review? of this main part of the chapter here, and will examine his ?review? of sections F and G, which represent two different aspects of the linguistic evidence, separately. ? These five sections of chapter seven deal primarily with the evidence of the isoglosses, and I show very clearly and logically that Hock?s case for the evidence of the isoglosses is wrong, and that the Indian homeland theory alone can explain all the isoglosses. Further, all the corroborating evidence is also detailed in full: the fact that the earliest historical locations of the Early Dialects (Hittite and Tocharian) are most logically explained by the OIT, the fact that the Early Dialects and the Last Dialects both share isoglosses with the European Dialects but not with each other, the fact that the linguistic evidence detailed by Johanna Nichols (ancient loanwords from Semitic and Sumerian words in Indo-European, the geography of the centum-satem split, etc.) show that the locus of the IE spread was in ancient Bactria-Margiana, the evidence of Chinese, Yeneseian and Altaic loanwords in Germanic, the one-way traffic of borrowings from Indo-Iranian into Finno-Ugric, etc., apart from literary evidence from the Rigveda and Avesta. ? Fournet completely ignores all this evidence, and resorts to his usual tactics. To begin with (after a brief discussion of the maps in my book, and some polemical comments we will examine presently), he chooses to discuss the word ?isogloss? rather than the actual evidence of the isoglosses: according to him, my entire scenario is underlined by ? an inadequate approach of the notion of isogloss. According to the author, ?an isogloss is a special linguistic feature which develops in any one language and then spreads to other languages and dialects over a contiguous area? (p.212). The regular definition is ?a line on a map that represents the geographical boundary (limit) of regional linguistic variants?. The erroneous definition of the author confuses a shared innovation, a shared conservation and an areal feature, among other things. An isogloss is a line on map that illustrates existing variants of a particular phenomenon. The author transforms that descriptive tool into a kind of permanently inheritable and transportable feature: ?when, in some cases, some of the dialects or languages sharing the isogloss move geographically away from each other (into non contiguous areas), and continue to retain the linguistic feature [?]? (p.214). ?.?? ? Fournet is probably successful, so far as his ?review? goes, in diverting the discussion from the evidence of the isoglosses to the meaning of the word isogloss. But he also succeeds in showing up his stunted intellect, and the fact that he never sees the need to go beyond the most basic one-liner commonest-meaning dictionaries meant for primary school children. Yes, most dictionaries would definitely define the word isogloss merely as ? a boundary line between places or regions that differ in a particular linguistic feature ? (Merriam-Webster?s Online Dictionary). But it also means the area enclosed by this line: ? In dialect geography, an area within which a feature is used predominantly or exclusively [?] more commonly, the line on a dialect map which bounds the area of a certain usage ? (Concise Oxford Companion to the English language, 1998, Tom McArthur). And finally, it also means the feature itself : ? An isogloss refers to a specific type of language border [?] Within the field of linguistics (including historical linguistics), the term ?isogloss? describes a distinctive feature of a language or a dialect (see volumes such as The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World?s Ancient Languages , ed. Roger D. Woodard). ? (absoluteastronomy.com). ? In any case, Fournet realized that I at least have used the word isogloss in the sense of ? a shared innovation, a shared conservation and an areal feature ? (and therefore naturally also ? a kind of permanently inheritable and transportable feature ?). So he could have examined my analysis of the evidence of the isoglosses on that basis. But he escapes doing so by claiming that I have misunderstood Hock?s representation of isoglosses, and that therefore my case makes little historical or linguistic sense. But Hock also describes ? shared features ?, and the whole point of his representation is that these ? shared features ? in the homeland were ? a kind of permanently inheritable and transportable ? features, which were inherited and transported by the various IE dialects from their common homeland to their various earliest inhabited historical locations. So basically, apart from the diametrically opposite conclusions, and the more complete range of ? shared features ? presented by me, there is no difference at all in what Hock represents and what is represented by me. The only difference is in name: Hock uses the word isogloss in its most common sense as a line demarcating areas with shared features (? a dialectological approach that maps out a set of intersecting ?isoglosses? which define areas with shared features ? in his own words) while I use it in the also valid sense as the feature itself (not, as Fournet suggests, from an ? erroneous interpretation ? of Hock?s use of the word, but because I had already used it in that sense in my second book in 2000). Conveniently, Fournet uses this as an excuse to avoid having to deal with the evidence of the isoglosses as presented by me.???? ? Fournet compounds his discussion on the word ?isogloss? with a discussion on the words ?development? or ?to develop?. The climax of Fournet?s ?review? of chapter seven is his passionate monologue on my use of the words ?development? and ?to develop? in my book, words which seem to drive him into a frenzy of uncontrollable fury or madness. We must take note of it in full, tedious though it is. To distinguish clearly Fournet?s own words from places where he quotes my book, I will underline the parts quoted by him from my book, and place in bold type Fournet?s own words of wisdom: ? ? some words have acquired particular meanings under the pen of the author. This is the case of ?development? and ?to develop?. These two words are a key lexical tool to suggest change and evolution in the fixist and anti-evolutionist framework of the author. We have made a survey of the main instances throughout the book and, most of time, the meaning is not ?to transform, to evolve? but ?to create ex-nihilo?. The inherited features shared by proto-Iranian(s) and Rig-Vedic Aryan(s) from their common ancestor(s) are described in the book with these two apparently ordinary and innocuous words: ?development? and ?to develop?. The substitution of ?to transform? or ?to create ex-nihilo? reveals the conveyed meaning: ? The Rig-Veda and the Avesta are the two oldest ?Indo-Iranian texts?. The joint evidence of the Rig-Veda and the Zend Avesta testifies to a period of common development [=creation ex-nihilo] of culture which may be called the Indo-Iranian period. According to the AIT (Aryan Invasion Theory), this period preceded the period of composition of the Rig-Veda and the Avesta: the joint ?Indo-Iranians? in the course of their postulated emigrations from South Russia, settled down for a considerable period of time in Central Asia, where they developed [=created ex-nihilo] this joint culture. Later, they separated from each other, migrated into their historical areas, where they composed, respectively, the Rig-Veda and the Avesta, both representing the separate developments [=transformations] of this earlier joint culture. This joint Indo-Iranian culture is, therefore, pre-Rigvedic ?. (p.3) These two words ?development? and ?to develop? enable the author to neutralize the difference between the transformation of a bygone entity, which in the Indo-Iranian case is a split into new entities, and the acquisition or creation of a new feature by an existing entity which remains unchanged. Most of the time, these two words are preceded or followed by ?joint?, ?jointly? ?common?, ?in common?. As the above example shows, this semantic neutralization is textually constructed from the very first words of the book. In most places, the replacement of ?develop? by ?transform? or ?evolve? does not suit semantically, because this is not the purported meaning. Other instances are: ? The Indo-Iranian culture common to the two texts developed [=was created ex-nihilo] after the composition of the hymns of the Early and Middle Books? (p.45). ?In our examination of the relative chronology of the Rig-Veda vis-?-vis the Avesta, the common development [=creation ex-nihilo] of the joint ?Indo-Iranian? culture represented in these two texts took place in the period of the Late Books of the Rig-Veda [?] In which area did this development [=creation ex-nihilo] of the joint ?Indo-Iranian? culture take place? [?] The common ground therefore lies in the area stretching from Punjab to Afghanistan . ? (p.81). ? The joint ?Indo-Iranian? culture common to the Avesta and the Rig-Veda developed [=got created ex-nihilo] during the period of composition of the Late Books of the Rig-Veda. [?] the area of development [=creation ex-nihilo] of this joint ?Indo-Iranian? culture [?] the development [=creation ex-nihilo] of this common ?Indo-Iranian culture [?] the area of development [=creation ex-nihilo] of this joint ?Indo-Iranian? culture [?] the development [=creation ex-nihilo] of this joint ?Indo-Iranian? culture [?]. ? (p.98). ? The Rig-Vedic ritual traditions developed [=got created ex-nihilo] in northern India ? (p.105) ? They actually developed [=began to feel] an all-pervading disdain [?] ? (p.107) ? the emigrating Mitanni could have developed [created ex-nihilo] a few [Prakritizations] ? (p.172) ? The Vedic Aryans [?] lived in a period prior to the development of this common culture ? (p.188). ? The culture of the Last Rig-Vedic Period (the common elements of which are found in the Late Books 5,1 and 8-10, in the Zend Avesta [?]) was already fully developed [=created ex-nihilo] . Before this was the Middle Period, and before this the Early Period, both of which preceded the development [=creation ex-nihilo] of this common culture ? (p.200). ? The common non-Indian word, in the OIT scenario can have developed [=been created ex-nihilo] in the region of Afghanistan and Central Asia ?. (p.303). In the pages 223-226, where the author describes his scenario of dispersal, this peculiar use of the word ?to develop? is compounded with the misunderstood word ?isogloss? and the nondescript phrase ?to develop an isogloss? (as of languages) is introduced. Thereafter, the book reveals the following sentence: ? The various European Dialects, on the other hand, developed isoglosses in common, separately, with both the Last Dialects as well as the Early Dialects ? (p.242). This is how the author describes or explains the emergence of the so-called European Dialects. This set of words is undoubtedly benchmark and the reader is left to think whether Talageri has not outwitted the Colorless green ideas sleep furiously of Chomsky. Being a structuralist, we shall leave to generative-transformists the task of turning the above sentence into the passive voice. On the whole, this chapter of the Section 2 reveals the multiple inadequacies and flaws of the author?s fixist and anti-evolutionist approach. In contrast with the Section 1, which contains stimulating elements, potentially requiring further analysis, this chapter of the Section 2 can be rated to be a near complete intellectual wreckage. About nothing (< 5%) has any scientific value or status. ??????????????????????? ? What does one call all this: a philosophical discourse, a semantic dissertation, a Freudian psycho-analysis, or just the rantings and ravings of a maniac? The last part of the monologue is certainly nothing but pure venom and hate. But the one outstanding aspect of the whole monologue is the masterful way in which Fournet completely diverts the discussion and attention from all the masses of material data and evidence to the purely semantic issue of the meaning of one word. ? The word ?develop? has many meanings: ?create? or ?invent? is one of them (e.g. ?he developed a new machine/system?). But in not one of the instances given by Fournet does the word ?create? (much less the gratuitous phrase ?create ex-nihilo?) fit in with the sense of the sentences where he replaces ??develop? with ?create ex-nihilo?. The word ?evolve? would be a more correct replacement (except in the one instance where he translates as ?began to feel?). But neither ?evolve? nor any of the other synonyms (acquire, grow, build up, alter, change, expand, generate, become, modify) would express the composite meaning of the word ?develop? which goes beyond all its synonyms and is the absolute mot juste . ? It is clear that Fournet has not understood Hock?s hypothesis at all ( if , that is, he has even read any of it outside the references to it in my book!). The main point of the hypothesis is that the various IE branches (originally ?Dialects? of PIE) share, among each other, certain linguistic features (which I, not incorrectly , call isoglosses). Different branches share different isoglosses with different sets of branches. The logic is that, in the original homeland, the original Dialects, which gave birth to the later branches, shared these isoglosses with each other when they occupied contiguous areas : in short, the isoglosses are ?areal features? in origin (in the original homeland). Although the branches occupied distant areas in historical times, the isoglosses give testimony to the fact that the original Dialects were in contiguous areas. But there are different isoglosses which cover different dialects: i.e. Dialects A, B and C may share one isogloss in opposition to Dialects D, E and F; while A, B, D and E may share another isogloss in opposition to C and F. Hock purports to present a dialectological arrangement which shows all the Dialects sharing isoglosses with each other in contiguous areas, in such a way, or ways, as to explain all the isoglosses. Hock?s contention is that his arrangement shows the hypothetical geographical positions of the different Dialects to each other in the original homeland to be more or less the same as the actual geographical positions of the respective branches to each other in their earliest attested historical periods. ??? ? I, on the contrary, show that Hock?s dialectological arrangement does not explain all the isoglosses, and, in fact, leaves many important isoglosses unexplained. In order to explain all the isoglosses, three things are required: a homeland to either the north or the south of the broad historical east-to-west Indo-European belt, a common exit point from this homeland onto this belt where exiting branches would remain in contact with each other after exiting the homeland ( this alone explains the isoglosses shared by far apart branches like Hittite, Tocharian and Italic), and a shifting series of movements which would bring different branches in contact with each other in different periods. Such a scenario from an Indian homeland explains all the isoglosses, as well as a host of other linguistic features and phenomena, of the different branches more logically and fully than any other homeland scenario; and all this is fully corroborated by the actual recorded textual evidence of the Rigveda and the Avesta. ? If Fournet is too busy searching out the most basic and simplistic meanings of individual English words (isogloss, develop, etc.) from the substandard dictionary used by him, and concentrating only on rhetorical and polemical arguments on the meanings of these words, rather than trying to understand the real issues involved here, I at least have better things to do. ? ? 9. Minor points on the evidence of the isoglosses : Fournet?s discussion of the evidence of the isoglosses is littered with all types of petty or time pass comments of a polemical nature: ? At the very beginning of the discussion, I point out that there are two versions of the OIT (correctly distinguished by Hock): the ?Sanskrit-origin? hypothesis and the ?PIE-in-India? hypothesis, and that I represent the ?PIE-in-India? hypothesis. Fournet has the following snide comments to make on this point: ? As regards the first version, the author has ?very emphatically rejected the idea that the Vedic language was the ancestor even of the languages known today as the Indo-Aryan languages, let alone of all the Indo-European languages? (p.205). This rejection is coherent with the general approach of the author according to which Rig-Veda Aryans have always been different from anybody else: ?The other Indo-European dialects were different from the Vedic dialect [?]? (p.298). In fact, the Indo-European languages are not far from having no ancestor at all in this version of the OIT ?. Now does Fournet himself believe that the Vedic language is the ancestor of all the Indo-European languages? If not, does it mean that he also believes that the ? Rig-Veda Aryans have always been different from anybody else ?, and that the Indo-European languages have ? no ancestor at all ?? If not, then why should it mean that I believe it? Here we have a prime example of petty criticism for the sake of criticism. But this is the childish theme which reverberates through Fournet?s time pass ?criticism?: ? ? It must be emphasized that the scenario proposed by the author is not a homeland for the Proto-Indo-European family, nor a protoIndo-European homeland. The scenario is a representation of (some of) Indo-European languages and branches concentrated in a reduced area. As the intellectual framework of the book negates the linguistic concept of Proto-Indo-European as a proto-language spoken by a unique prehistorical human community, the scenario illustrates some of the Indo-European languages (or branches) as having contiguous individual homelands. In other words they have never been anything but neighbours. The Proto-Indo-European homeland, in this version of the OIT, is a compaction of individual homelands, one of them being that of Indo-Aryan. This could be called the PIE Homunculus Loquens Theory. The compacted homelands area already contains all the components of the Indo-European family in a reduced and telescopically concentrated format. In this theory, the Indo-Europeans became what they aiways were, but they did so further away.[?] The scenario described in the book is teleological [?] Because the author does not accept the paleo-linguistic notion of Indo-Iranian, and has a fixist and anti-evolutionist framework, he posits that Indo-Aryan has always existed, at least as far back as ?originally? may go, and he has to posit that all Indo-European languages were equally existing from the same point, to when ?originally? goes back. ????? ??? ? There is more repetitive ranting and raving in the same vein. What Fournet?s dim brain fails to comprehend is that, whether he likes it or not, all these foolish and myopic charges would apply equally well to the presentation of the isoglosses by Hock in his article, ?Out of India? The Linguistic Evidence? (1999), to which my own presentation in this chapter is a reply. Hock also does not start the Proto-Indo-European story from the embryonic and foetal stages, but starts it with the various Dialects ancestral to the various branches already basically differentiated from each other, ? having contiguous individual homelands ?, with ? all the components of the Indo-European family in a reduced and telescopically concentrated format ? etc.. Or perhaps, it does, and he thinks a simple assertive denial will do the trick: ? This erroneous interpretation of Hock?s representation of isoglosses misleads the author into thinking that a telescopic, homothetic or geometrical modification of Hock?s representation projected on his compacted homelands area could make any historical or linguistic sense ?. Well, if wishes were horses, Fournet would ride. My presentation, except in its more complete survey of the isoglosses, and in its diametrically opposite conclusion, is of the same type as that of Hock, and if Fournet does not have the guts to deal with the evidence, he could at least refrain from opening his mouth too wide and making a fool of himself. ? Fournet indulges in more semantic hairsplitting, or criticism for the sake of criticism: he refers to my ? decided contention (for political reasons) that Indo-Aryan is not a ?dialect? (p.236) but a ?branch? (p.223). It must be reminded that Indo-Aryan is the Indian sub-sub-branch of the Indo-Iranian sub-branch of the non-Anatolian branch of the Indo-European family, the other branch between [sic] Anatolian ?. So all the scholars and linguists who have referred to Indo-Aryan as a ? branch ? (including Meillet and Winn quoted earlier), and all those (and this includes the overwhelming majority of western linguists and other academicians) who refer to Tocharian, Hellenic, Germanic, Celtic, etc. as ? branches ? rather than as ? sub-branches of the non-Anatolian branch of the Indo-European family ? all have their ? political reasons ? for doing so? Fournet seems to be unaware that the ?Indo-Hittite? theory he is upholding here is almost as dead as a dodo, and Anatolian is now treated as one more branch of Indo-European, albeit a special one. [Incidentally, I have treated, in this context, the words ? dialect ? and ? branch ? as almost synonyms, the original IE ? dialects ? later developing into the different ? branches ?. Where does this joker catch me claiming that Indo-Aryan is ? not a dialect but a branch ?? I do so neither on p.236 nor on p.223, nor anywhere else]. ? ? About my very logical contention that the one-way traffic of borrowings from Indo-Aryan and Iranian into Finno-Ugric proves that the Indo-Iranians did not pass through the Finno-Ugric areas in a migration towards the east, but that west-migrating groups of Indo-Iranians imparted those words to Finno-Ugric, Fournet calls it an ? ad-hoc and unparsimonious hypothesis of unattested Indo-Iranian people: ?the west-migrating Indo-Aryans and Iranians are, unfortunately, lost to history, but their existence is vouched for by the borrowed words in the Uralic languages? ?. This criticism falls in the same category, call it what you will, of OIT writers who reject the very existence of the Proto-Indo-European language because it is ? unattested ?. Fournet fails to realize that the very fact, that the Indo-Iranian languages of the south do not ? attest ?, with Finno-Ugrian borrowings, their having passed through the Finno-Ugrian areas, itself ? attests ? to the existence of west-migrating Indo-Iranians lost to history. ? Later, Fournet again shows his total inability to comprehend written English, in the following simplistic criticism. He quotes my statement denying that ? the ?sequential movement of different groups? Out-of-India hypothesis (postulated by no-one , so far as I know) ? (p.306 of my book) forms any part of my hypothesis, and writes: ? The reader is left to understand what the Early Dialects, the European Dialects and the Last Dialects (p.236) mean. Is this not sequential? Not to speak of ?The European Dialects moved northwards from Afghanistan, and then, in the same above order [i.e. Italic, Celtic, Germanic, Baltic and Slavic] appear to have gradually migrated by a northwest path into Europe, and continued right upto Western Europe, [?] ? (p.240). And ?Hittite, Tocharian and Italic are the dialects which, in any generally accepted schedule of migration, were the first, second and third, respectively, to migrate from the original homeland.? (p.222). Is a schedule of respectively, first, second and third, not sequential? It seems that the author makes a distinguo between ?one by one? or in small groups, but this distinction is irrelevant ?. Only a person with a brain like Fournet?s could have asked such foolish questions. Nowhere have I said that the emigrating branches of Indo-European did not move out in sporadic sequential movements. Obviously, they were not running a relay race that they all started sprinting out the moment the whistle was blown. Fournet quotes different sentences to show that I describe sequential movements. But, when he quotes my allegedly denying it, he deliberately quotes only half the sentence: I am not denying sequential movements per se, I am denying ? the ?sequential movement of different groups? Out-of-India hypothesis (postulated by no-one , so far as I know) argued against by Hock (HOCK 1999a), which would treat the various Indo-European Dialects as moving, one by one, out of the bottle-neck routes leading from northwestern India to the outside world, after having developed all the isoglosses within India ? . Note the key words I have placed in italics here, which Fournet deliberately avoids quoting. As I have shown, all the isoglosses developed, in stages, outside this bottleneck area.?? ???? ? Fournet also quotes my references to the Druhyus, Anus and Purus, but as he is admittedly totally ignorant about these matters, his views, that my homeland hypothesis is ? hallucinatorily absurd ? and that my ? intellectual framework is flawed to a (possibly) hopeless extent ?, and (note the sheer poetry of this) that ? this part of the book has a kind of incoherent and unworldly flavour that borders on Nostradamus? predictions ?, I will treat as merely the rantings of a vicious mind. ? Fournet also writes: ? For reasons that are obscure, briefly polished off, the author rejects the hypothesis of a homeland ?situated in any central area? (p.221) and states that ?a common exit point? (p.223) is necessary. These two points are obviously required by his scenario but they remain no less obviously unjustified in the book. And we tend to consider his rejection of these two points unacceptable in the first place ?. As we have been seeing throughout this reply, and will see more clearly in the next point (10. A fake review) Fournet criticizes without reading, and we can safely say that he has not read , or has totally failed to understand , what I have written on p.222, where I have explained why a common exit point is necessary. [Incidentally, note his confused logic or confused English: in the first sentence above, he correctly states that I reject one point, about a homeland ?situated in a central area?, while I require another point, ?a common exit point?. In the second sentence, he suggests that I require both the points (a homeland ?situated in a central area as well as ?a common exit point??). In the third sentence, he says that I reject both the points!]. ? Funnily, Fournet also complains that, in my hypothesis, I portray Indo-Aryan as a branch which ? has never moved from India : ?Indo-Aryan, the Dialect which remained in the homeland after all the others had left? (p.277) ?. But why does this surprise Fournet, or why does he find it worthy of comment? Since my hypothesis portrays India as the original homeland, isn?t it understood that it is intrinsic to the hypothesis that Indo-Aryan, which is historically native to this area, automatically stands portrayed as a branch which ? never moved from India ? (although two groups from among the Indo-Aryans did do so: the proto-Mitanni, and the Indo-Aryans who moved westwards through the Finno-Ugrian areas)? A time pass comment to beat all time pass comments. ? ? ? 10. A fake review : Fournet?s ?review? of sections F and G of chapter seven of my book is particularly interesting, since it exemplifies more clearly than anything else the fake nature of his whole review, and the fact that Fournet compulsively ?reviews? without reading, or else that he is pathetically unable to comprehend at all what he is reading. [While section G alone is entitled as an Appendix by me, actually these two parts should have been entitled Appendix 1 and Appendix 2 respectively, since they represent two aspects of the linguistic evidence different from the rest of the chapter]. ? Fournet has the following to say about section F, ?The linguistic roots in India ?: ? The next pages (p.277-290) are a kind of summary of the preceding pages from the start of the book and a kind of provisional conclusion, before the author proceeds to the archeological chapter. Our intuition is that a first version of the book may have stopped here and that new chapters were added later on. This might explain the erroneous reference: page XVIII and not XV for the preface [?]??? ? ? Incredibly, this section, far from being a summary of them, has nothing whatsoever to do with ? the preceding pages from the start of the book ?, and deals with linguistic evidence totally different even from those discussed in the sections dealing with the evidence of the isoglosses. It deals with the ?two-waves-of-migration? theory and its incompatibility with the literary and linguistic evidence, with the question of non-Vedic dialects of ?Indo-Aryan?, with the l-and-r phenomenon in ?Indo-Aryan? linguistics and how it totally shatters the AIT paradigm, with the evidence of Bangani and Sinhalese, and with suggested affinities between Indo-European and Austronesian. None of these topics has even been touched upon in ? the preceding pages from the start of the book ?. Fournet unilaterally deduces, from the title of the section and perhaps a glance at the first paragraph or two, that this section represents ? a kind of summary of the preceding pages from the start of the book ?. Hercule Fournet does not stop there; from this first deduction he draws another one: ? that a first version of the book may have stopped here and that new chapters were added later on ?. Then he draws a third deduction from the second one (and the giant leap in logic involved here is totally beyond me, and would probably leave even Sherlock Holmes, Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple foxed): that this might ? explain the erroneous reference: page XVIII and not XV for the preface ?. ? Fournet?s summary treatment of section G, ?Witzel?s linguistic arguments against the OIT?, is even more hilarious. This is what he has to say about this section: ? The next sub-chapter (p.290-307) is focused on previous exchanges with the author?s b?te noire aka Michael Witzel. There is nothing new in this part of the book. The part was probably added to the book because some of its content has not been published elsewhere as the author had wished (p.290) ?. ? It is clear that Fournet has not even glanced at this section, since every word written by him here is factually wrong. I state at the very beginning of this sub-chapter or section that it represents my point-by-point reply to the summary of the linguistic arguments against the OIT made by Witzel in his article in the Bryant-Patton volume published in 2005 . It has nothing whatsoever to do with any ? previous exchanges ? with Witzel. This is the first time that I replied to this article by Witzel, and I do not know that anyone else had done so before me; so this part of the book should have been absolutely ? new ? to any reader, and certainly to Fournet, who, as per his own admission, knew nothing about the OIT: ? Before reading the book, we had about no expertise on the OIT, apart from the vague idea that the OIT tries to promote India as a possible homeland of the Proto-Indo-European language ?. ? But Fournet attempts a Hercule Fournetian deduction here too: ? The part was probably added to the book because some of its content has not been published elsewhere as the author had wished ?. Where does Fournet get this idea? I explain on p.290 that the article by Witzel was published in the Bryant-Patton volume published in 2005, which also contained an article by me. But while I was expressly not allowed to update my article (which had been given to the publishers in 1998, seven years before it was published), Witzel was allowed to update his article almost to the last minute. This explanation by me is interpreted by Fournet to mean that this present sub-chapter by me (pp.290-307 in my book published in 2008) contains material which I wanted to publish in the 2005 Bryant-Patton volume but was not allowed to do so! Now this sub-chapter consists of my point-by-point reply to Witzel?s article published in the 2005 Bryant-Patton volume, which of course I could only have read after that volume was published and I received a copy of it much later. So how could it be possible that this reply to his article could contain matter which I wanted to publish in that very volume itself but was not allowed to do so? ? After all his bluster about the lack of linguistic discussion in my book (and he means of course etymological discussions about Proto-Indo-European roots!), Fournet not only completely ignores all the linguistic discussion in these two sections, but shows up his total inability to even comprehend what the sections are all about. But none of this stops him from ?reviewing? and making masterful deductions, and arriving at condemnatory conclusions! ? ? 11. The archaeological case : Fournet then moves on to review chapter eight of my book, ?The Archaeological Case?. Since this chapter is based more on logical arguments, and less, or almost not at all, on hard data and evidence (which makes Fournet uncomfortable and nervous), Fournet is a bit more comfortable with this chapter: ? In this part of the book, the word ?developed? has a more regular meaning (fully-grown-up) and the word ?transformation? is used, in contrast with all previous chapters of the Sections 1 and 2, where this latter word is unheard-of [?] . Moreover the content of this chapter is considerably better than the rest of the section 2 ?. But his ?kindness? stops at this point. ? He starts out by a repetition of his earlier Fournetian deduction: ? As mentioned before, we suspect that this part of the book was probably added to the book in a second (or third) phase of its composition ?. [?]. Hercule Fournet even provides the two clues which pointed the way towards this deduction: first: ? There are some lexical differences with previous chapters ? (meaning the above ? fully-grown-up ? use of certain words), and second, ? There is a sort of contradiction in the very existence of this chapter. The author has very emphatically declared that the case is settled once and for good in favor of the OIT and then one more chapter is nevertheless added. This is one more oddity in the textual organization of the book. ? Therefore, one more deduction: ? The first page is a kind of apologetic transition for the addition of the chapter. ? ? To Fournet?s myopic vision, nothing seems to be what it actually is: earlier, he deduces that ? pages (p.277-290) are a kind of summary of the preceding pages from the start of the book and a kind of provisional conclusion, ? when it was nothing of the kind. Now, when I actually state, on the first page of chapter eight, that the aim of this ?final chapter [is] to sum up the case and present it in final perspective?, it looks to him like an apology for the ? addition ? of this chapter. Actually, right from my second book, I have constantly been pointing out that there are three disciplines involved in the study of the Aryan question: linguistics, archaeology and textual analysis. As the entire first section is devoted to the unassailable masses of textual references which conclusively prove the OIT, it should be clear to anyone with a modicum of sense that a second section with two chapters on the linguistic and archaeological aspects of the case was inevitable from the beginning. But having made a deduction, Fournet must find clues for it, ranging from ? lexical differences ? to an ? apologetic ? attitude. ? While it is true that ? the case is settled once and for good in favor of the OIT ? on the basis of the unassailable textual evidence and a consideration of all the linguistic evidence, it is unthinkable that the discussion could ever have been sought to be concluded without considering the archaeological (including anthropology, etc,) position. ? The aim of this chapter is threefold: ? First, to show very conclusively that this third discipline also, although based only on logical arguments rather than hard data (since archaeology has failed so far to yield any hard, concrete evidence for either the AIT or the OIT), ? is not neutral in the debate so far as the AIT case is concerned: archaeology stands in sharp opposition to the AIT and conclusively disproves it. At the same time, archaeology is more or less neutral so far as the OIT case is concerned: although there is obviously no conclusive archaeological evidence for the OIT scenario, this circumstance does not disprove the OIT. There are many basic reasons why archaeological evidence is vital for the AIT to be accepted as valid, but archaeological evidence is not vital for the OIT to be accepted as valid, and we will see this in detail in this chapter. ? (pp.311-312 of my book). ? Second, to show that the AIT contention that a ?non-Aryan? Harappan civilization was replaced by an ?Aryan? one is untenable since it consists of a combination of several totally incompatible postulates ? a combination which has no parallel anywhere else in the world, and therefore represents an extremely unlikely to impossible scenario. ? Three, to show that, because of this combination of several incompatible postulates, the AIT writers are compelled to concoct different scenarios to explain away the facts which contradict these postulates, but these scenarios also end up contradicting each other sharply. ? It is these three points that are explained in great detail in chapter eight of my book with facts and illustrations. And it represents a logical conclusion to the rest of the book. ? Fournet so utterly fails to understand (assuming he has really read any portion of the chapter) the inevitable logic of the detailed case presented in this chapter, that he writes: ? Another point is the reluctance of the author to accept an ethnocultural and linguistic shift in a short period. There exists [sic] clear examples of such processes: that of Gaulish people becoming Gallo-Romans in probably fewer than five centuries, and some Uralic people who changed from Samoyedic to Turkic to Russian in three generations ?. ? Fournet here illustrates the second point that I am making in this chapter: that the contention that a ?non-Aryan? Harappan civilization was replaced by an ?Aryan? one is untenable since it consists of a combination of several totally incompatible postulates ? a combination which has no parallel anywhere else in the world, and when AIT writers like Fournet (see also Witzel on pp.318, 320-322, and Hock on pp.326-27 of my book) try to show parallels based on only one or two postulates they only succeed in highlighting the unparalleled nature of the contention in respect of all the other postulates . ? Thus, taking only the single postulate of ? an ethnocultural and linguistic shift in a short period ?, Fournet cites the alleged parallel of the Gauls becoming Gallo-Romans in ? fewer than five centuries ? and a section of Uralic people changing from Samoyedic to Turkic to Russian in three generations. But he ignores the sharp opposition between these cases and the alleged AIT case in respect of all the other postulates: ? Firstly, there can be no comparison between the Gauls and the Samoyedic groups (with full respect for their culture) and the Harappans in respect of civilizational status. However much it may irk Fournet (? It remains to be proved to which degree this panegyrical description suits the real state of that civilization at that time. It seems that this Harappan area was on the contrary in a kind of crisis and past its heyday ?), the Harappan civilization was one of the great ancient civilizations, on par with the Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Chinese civilizations and even superior to them in a few respects (while they may have been superior to it in some others). Even when it was ? past its heyday ?, its inhabitants continued to be the inheritors of that great civilizational tradition. ? Secondly, the unorganized Gauls were conquered, overrun and ruled by the Romans, whose massive and organized military apparatus was unparalleled in the world at that time and is still an object of respect. Likewise, the unorganized Samoyedic groups were repeatedly conquered by Altaic people, and finally came under the control of one of the most totalitarian states, the basically Russian USSR . On the other hand, the multitudes of Harappans are alleged to have been completely transformed ethnoculturally and linguistically by a few people, less culturally advanced than themselves, ?trickling? into their midst or (according to Witzel) by ? just one ?Afghan? IA tribe that did not return to the highlands but stayed in their Panjab winter quarters in spring ?. ? Thirdly, there are ample textual records and archaeological evidences, and strong traditional memories, which testify to the earlier languages and ethnocultural identity of the Gauls and the Samoyedic people, and to their conquest and linguistic-ethnocultural conversion by the Romans and the Russians respectively. The alleged AIT case has left not the faintest textual record or archaeological trace of any earlier language and culture, or of this alleged total linguistic-ethnocultural conversion from non-Aryan Harappans to Aryan people, and not the faintest traditional memory of it either among the local people or in the oldest Aryan texts. ? Fourthly, the conversion of the Gauls and the Samoyedic people was on a relatively superficial or outer level in comparison with the alleged conversion of the non-Aryan Harappans, which was so deep, total and complete that even Witzel remarks on the unparalleled nature of this totality. He describes as ? relatively rare ? what we (allegedly) see in the Harappan transformation ? with the absorption of not only new languages but also of an entire complex of material and spiritual culture, ranging from chariotry and horsemanship to Indo-Iranian poetry whose complicated conventions are still actively used in the Rgveda. The old Indo-Iranian religion, centred on the opposition of Devas and Asuras, was also adopted, along with Indo-European systems of ancestor worship ?. Even more startling is the fact that even the rivers have purely Aryan names even in the very oldest texts, with no evidence to suggest that those rivers ever had different names earlier. Witzel describes it as ? especially surprising ? since it is totally without parallel anywhere else in the world. ? Fifthly, as I have pointed out in my book, the Harappans are supposed to have been converted and transformed not by the original Indo-Aryans who are alleged to have originally emigrated from South Russia, but by a group of people who so represented the final result of a continuous admixture of different races all the way from South Russia to India that they bore almost no ethnic affinity at all with the original Indo-Aryans, but were actually (in Witzel?s words) an ? Aryanized ? section of the ? local population ? of the ? Turkmenian-Bactrian area which yielded the BMAC ?, and (in the words of Hock) were therefore ? fairly similar to the population of that area ? (the Harappan area) ? in terms of their physical appearance ?. And the ?Aryan? ethos transmitted by these highly diluted carriers of the Indo-Aryan culture to the Harappans resulted in the Vedic civilization in the formerly Harappan areas, which produced a text (well after these Vedic people had lost all memories of this whole process of transformation, as also of any extra-territorial associations), the Rigveda, which seems to contain the seeds and essence of the reconstructed and reconstructable language and mythology of the original Proto-Indo-Europeans in the original homeland, and bears closer affinities with the language and mythology (in a more primitive form) of each of the other Indo-European branches than any of them bear to each other! Is there any comparison at all on this point with the Gauls or the Samoyedic groups? ? To compound his errors, Fournet quotes me in full as follows: ? The AIT case is made up of a great number of different extremely unlikely to impossible scenarios and postulates which contradict each other hopelessly: each scenario or postulate is concocted in order to explain away certain valid objections to the AIT, but it ends up contradicting most of the other scenarios or postulates concocted to explain away various other equally valid objections. The net result is a ?complex? mass of chaotic scenarios or postulates which explain nothing and lead nowhere: except that they are all intended to somehow prove the AIT case ? (p.331), and writes: ? After having read the (section 2 of) the book, our conclusion is that this description best suits the OIT ?. Fournet does not realize that just retorting ?you too? or ?not me, you ?, like a child involved in a juvenile quarrel, makes no sense. I have exposed all the contradictions in the AIT scenario (e.g. advocating peaceful ? trickling-in ? scenarios to answer objections about the lack of archaeological evidence, while advocating violent invasionist scenarios to answer objections about the total transformation). At the same time I have presented a single, coherent and cohesive scenario in my book where all the points fit in with each other and there is no internal contradiction whatsoever: I challenge anyone to show me any contradictions. ? Apart from this, Fournet?s review of this chapter contains his usual silly time pass comments: ? He writes that ? the interactions between the new and the old populations are described in an ?erase and rewind? mode ? in my description of the Aryan transformation of the Harappan area. What he does not realize is that, in my hypothesis, there are no ?new? and ?old? populations in that area. It is the AIT which holds that there were two different populations or civilizations in that area, before and after the alleged Aryan transformation. What I am describing, or exposing, is the AIT descriptions of the case. ? Further, Fournet writes: ? we do not understand this statement of the author: ?The Vedic Aryans are the People of the Book in the Rigveda?. (p.368) ? Fournet does not understand it because he has not read pp.260-264 of my book, or for that matter, most of the book as a whole. He writes: ? The book does not require any prior reading of the two other books by the same author, which were on the same topic ?. But he could have correctly added: ? The writing of this review did not require any prior reading of this book under review either ?. ? In giving his decided views that the system of signs depicted on the Harappan seals is ? most probably not a writing system ? (the weight of logic is on the side of the view that it definitely is one, but there is no sense in pointless quibbling until it is finally and conclusively deciphered), Fournet produces this gem of profundity: ? The author has the prejudice that the absence of writing is tantamount to idiocy and cultural vacuum ?! ? And Fournet ends his review of this chapter with his blessings: ? Well, our most sincere suggestion would be that the long defunct OIT should now be allowed to rest in peace ?! Well, our most sincere suggestion would be that Fournet step out of his cocoon and learn to face unpleasant (to him) facts: it is the AIT which is being put to rest, sooner than it would have otherwise, by inadequate protagonists like himself. ? ? 12. Identities and prejudices : Fournet finally moves on to the last part of my book ? Postscript: Identities Past and Present ?. This postscript contains basically two parts. The first part, like the first section of the book, consists of detailed data and references from the Rigveda, here proving that the term arya in the Rigveda refers to the Purus , and that the terms dasa and dasyu refer respectively to non-Puru tribes and their priestly classes. Beyond noting that ? the author agrees that there were two different populations simultaneously inhabiting north-western India but he does not identify the dasa with the pre-existing non Indo-Aryan population ?, Fournet does not deal with this data (any more than he deals with any of the hard data in any other part of my book). [It may be pointed out, incidentally, that I do not agree ? that there were two different populations simultaneously inhabiting north-western India ?. There were many tribal conglomerate populations inhabiting northern India as whole, but in the eyes of the Puru composers of the Rigveda , the Purus were one entity, and all non-Purus were another]. ? The second part of this postscript deals with ancient vis-?-vis modern identities. In this part, I make it clear that my analysis of the Rigveda ? refers to people who lived, and events which took place, thousands of years ago ? (p.363), and that ? the history of Vedic times is just that: the history of Vedic times . It has to do with the history of civilizations and language families, and must be recognized as such; but it does not have anything whatsoever to do with relations between different ethnic, linguistic, caste or communal groups of the present day. The biases and the conflicts of ancient times are the biases and conflicts of ancient peoples with whom present day peoples have no direct ethnic connections ? .(pp.365-6). Hence I plead that I ? can only hope that nothing written in the book is used as a fodder for manipulative politics of any kind seeking to revive supposed biases, prejudices and putative identities of the past ? (p.368). ? As the saying goes, to a person with severe jaundice, the whole world looks yellow. Where any sane reader would have heard the voice of sanity, sobriety and harmony in this chapter, Fournet finds the whole chapter eerily dark, satanic and sinister and finds in this chapter ? the very purposes that motivate the author?s enterprise. With these purposes, we stand on the threshold of the political vested interests of the author?s version of the OIT. And we will not step beyond that point, all the less so as we have recently admired la Porte de l?Enfer by Auguste Rodin in the Mus?e d?Orsay in Paris and we have some uncanny forebodings about thresholds ?! So this postscript is the doorway to Hell! A strange kind of phrase and sentiment, this kind of medieval Christian attitude towards heathen traditions, to hear in this day and age in a so-called academic debate! ? Another aspect of this second part of the postscript is that I plead for a non-partisan attitude even in our treatment of the people and events in these ancient texts, and show how I have adopted such an attitude in my own analysis. This seems to irk Fournet, who comments: ? the author?s insistence on the otherness of Indo-Aryans results in a very unfavourable portrayal of these people, who were ?different?, ?insular?, ?developing an all-pervading disdain for and hostility toward? other people and areas, with a ?traditional attitude? of ?disdain or even mild hostility?, etc. The reader is left to wonder what ?thoroughly South Asian? means. We cannot help thinking that the Indo-Aryans, and their neighbours as well, do not deserve these characterizations ? ? The particular quotation from my book which provokes this outburst is ? The two traditions, Vedic and Avestan, seem to represent two entities sharing a common tradition, but as rival entities within this common tradition. And echoes of this rivalry persist down to the later forms of these two traditions ? ? but this is a view with which almost every single scholar of comparative studies of Vedic and Avestan traditions would agree! ? Furthermore, if Fournet finds an ? unfavourable portrayal ? of the Vedic Aryans in my analysis, his findings are not based on Hercule Fournetian deductions drawn by him from indirect references in my book, but on direct quotations of phrases used by me, and I have myself made this ?unfavourable? portrayal clear in unambiguous terms (p.368-369). So, here, it seems as if he is ending up defending the Vedic Aryans from my calumnious portrayal of them! On the one hand, Fournet accuses me of glorifying the Vedic Aryans and portraying them as a unique superhuman community, ? an immanent, panchronic (near Platonician) Entity, as old as ?originally? goes back, that has always been different from anything else and that has virginally never moved from its supposed Indian homeland ? ? all this simply because I advocate an Indian homeland ! And when I simply portray them as normal human beings in their morals and actions, he turns round and accuses me of giving so ? unfavourable ? a portrayal of them that even he is compelled to rise to their defence. ? Fournet?s words show his total lack of understanding. I have nowhere included ? and their neighbours as well ? in these characterizations so far as I can see, since my book is an analysis of the Vedic Aryans, whose attitude is portrayed in their own books by themselves ; and I cannot characterize other people on the basis of the way they are portrayed by the Vedic Aryans. ? But, an examination of the Avesta will show that these are characteristics of the Avestan Iranians as well. And an examination of the characteristic texts and literature of almost every single civilized human community in history will show that, except to the eyes of the idealistic and Utopian or partisan viewer, this insularity and disdain for other peoples and areas is sadly characteristic of almost all human societies in general. As I have repeatedly written: ? Rigvedic history, which forms the backdrop of the Rigveda, is like the history of any ancient civilization ? (p.369). ? It is only people with mind-sets like Fournet who will insist on interpreting the very idea of location of the PIE homeland in India itself as being directly and automatically tantamount to treating the Vedic Aryans as a unique, superhuman community. Incidentally, does Fournet also feel that all the writers and scholars who advocate different homelands for the Indo-Europeans also treat the present-day Indo-European language speaking inhabitants of the geographical area advocated by them to be ? an immanent, panchronic (near Platonician) Entity, as old as ?originally? goes back, that has always been different from anything else and that has virginally never moved from its [?] homeland ?? Or are contemptuous descriptions of this kind reserved only for dealing with the OIT hypothesis? ? Fournet?s comment, ? The reader is left to wonder what ?thoroughly South Asian? means ?, is typical. Whether the reader would ? wonder ? about it or not is a doubtful question. If Fournet ? wonders ? about it, it may be because he does not understand English beyond the limited meanings of English words yielded by his favourite dictionary. More specifically, it is because he has not read p.100 of my book. If he had, he would at least have known that his mystification about this perfectly logical and simple phrase would have to be clarified by Witzel, whose use of this phrase has merely been repeated by me. ? Fournet ends his review of the postscript with his reference to my ? evocation of the ?Battle of the Ten Kings? (p.370) ?, and his admission of his ? having never read or heard what this epical event is ? (although it is referred to many times in the course of this book itself, as the Index could have enlightened him) already referred to earlier in this reply. Then this profound gem: ? According to the author, this may have been a kind of Big Bang of the Indo-European history. We tend to think this more the Big Crunch of the OIT ?. ? After a few words on my Index (already dealt with earlier on in this reply), Fournet finally ends his ?review? with the biggest joke cracked by him throughout this entire ?review?: he tells us that his ?review? ? has not been ?done with unfriendly or hostile intent? (p.XXXII) ?! ? ? III. Postscript: How to write a review. ? As we saw, the entire ?review? had nothing to do with the data, evidence and conclusions in my book, and consisted of nothing but polemics: long diatribes and confused masses of comments and opinions on a variety of topics (from AIT and OIT to Indo-Iranian to Proto-Indo-European), interspersed with jeers, nasty pieces of psycho-analyses, and semantic discussions on the meanings of specific words used by me. If large parts of the review, many of them quoted above (the prime example being Fournet?s monologue on the words ?development? and ?to develop?), were to be described in one phrase, it would be a phrase used by Arun Shourie in one of his books: ? verbal vomit ?.???? ? A pedestrian response to my book of this kind would have been understandable from a lay person, who would have neither the interest, nor the time nor the ability to take the trouble to try to understand the details of the subject under discussion. Many lay people who liked my first book found the second book more tedious, and many who liked the second book find my third one extremely tedious and tiring, because of the masses of references, data and statistics which they naturally cannot be expected to read in detail or subject to a critical examination. But people presuming to write a review of my book and judge the contents as scholars cannot escape with this pedestrian approach. Unfortunately, that is just what Fournet does in this ?review? and which other possible reviewers are going to try to do in respect of my book, when they do not have the guts to address the real issues in my book. It is a technique which was demonstrated by Witzel, in his review of my second book, and in the enthusiastic reactions to it from his comrades in arms and many lay (but partisan) readers, as a tactically effective one in derailing serious discussion.. Any objection to the pedestrian and irrelevant nature of the criticisms is dismissed as a failure to understand how clinching the criticism is in debunking my arguments and evidence! ? I had to descend to Fournet?s low level in order to reply to his ?review? of my book. But, henceforward, I will not take the trouble of giving detailed replies to any so called review of my book which concentrates on polemics or on anything other than factual criticism. ? While I can have nothing to learn from jokers like Fournet on ? how to write a book ?, Fournet certainly can learn from me ?how to write a review? or ?how to review a book? on the basis of factual criticism rather than polemics. Fournet?s whole attitude throughout his review was that of a monkey who has been handed a stick ( bandar ke haath mein laathi , as the Hindi version of an all-India saying goes): he decided that Koenraad Elst, by asking him if he could review my book, had given him a licence to give me the thrashing of my life, and like Witzel, who has a special word (? fun ?) for this kind of Indian-bashing, Fournet decided to have ? fun ? as never before. ? Fun ? it may have been, but a ?review? it was not. ? As illustration of what a genuine critique should be like, he can examine my own criticism of Witzel in my book under review. I have also criticized Witzel (whom Fournet calls my ? personal favorite duelist ? and my ? bete noire ?) sometimes in sharp words, but my criticism is everywhere based on factual criticism of what he has actually written , rather than, like Fournet, on polemical monologues about my personal opinions of what he represents, what he does not know, and what he has not mentioned but should have (and in fact, on p.xxx and xxxii of my preface, I have even given him credit for one important instance of factual criticism by him of my second book). My criticisms are unanswerable, and have therefore remained unanswered and steadfastly ignored by him: ? On p.50, I point out how Witzel takes up VII.33.3 in the Rigveda, which (as confirmed by VII.18.9) is a reference to a battle on the Yamuna, and treats it first as a battle on the Indus, then into a reference to a west-to-east movement across the Indus by Vasishtha and the Bharatas, and finally into a testimony of Vasishtha and the Bharatas being ? self-proclaimed immigrants ? from Iran. Can Witzel show one reference or one item of acceptable evidence (and tell us how many western Vedic scholars will accept it as valid) to show that this verse refers to the Indus and not to the Yamuna, and that Vasishtha and the Bharatas, as per this or any other reference from the Rigveda or any other Vedic or even Puranic text, are ? self-proclaimed immigrants ? from Iran? ? On pp.50-51, I point out how Witzel again claims that since absolutives (gerunds) are not found in Iranian, and since the Vasishthas don?t use absolutives in their compositions, this is evidence of their being from Iran . Witzel does not provide a complete family-wise or book-wise list of absolutives in the Rigveda to prove his point. But I do, and show that his claim is blatantly false. Can Witzel provide a complete list of absolutives from the Rigveda to show that he is right and that I am wrong? ? In the same context I point out, on pp.51-52, that while the non-family books (1, 8-10) as well as the book of Atri (book 5) are overflowing with personal name types in common with the Avesta, the book of Vasishtha (book 7) is not only completely lacking in such names, but, in fact, the only Iranian names in the whole of book 7 are the names of the persons and tribes arraigned as the enemies of Vasishtha and the Bharatas! Can Witzel explain this in the context of his claim that Vasishtha and the Bharatas are from Iran ? ? On pp.52-53, I point out that Witzel, in two different pages of one and the same paper written by him in 1995 (and later reiterated in all subsequent papers), claims on the one hand that Vishwamitra was the leader of the coalition which fought Sudas, the Bharatas and Vasishtha in the Battle of the ten kings and was completely defeated and humiliated by them, and on the other that hymn III.53 was composed by the Vishwamitras to commemorate and glorify the victory of the Sudas in this battle. Can Witzel clarify this point? ? On pp.108-110, I point out how Witzel claims that the Ganga and Yamuna are ? already mentioned ? in the Rigveda, as if they are new sights on the Rigvedic horizon, and that to book 10 (which even Witzel accepts as the last and latest book of the Rigveda) ? most of Afghanistan [?] is already out of sight ?, as if the Vedic Aryans, coming from the west, have moved away from it eastwards by the time of composition of book 10. And I point out that, on the contrary, Afghanistan (and even the Indus) is totally unknown to the three oldest books of the Rigveda (books 6, 3 and 7) and even to a large extent to the other family books (4, 2 and 5, of which 4 and 5 alone mention some rivers, but none of the lakes, mountains, place-names and animals of Afghanistan), which refer to all the rivers, place-names, lakes and animals of the east. And far from Afghanistan being ? already out of sight ? in the last and latest book 10, this book not only contains references to the lakes, mountains, place-names and animals of Afghanistan (totally unknown to the family books), but also to every single river of Afghanistan named in books 4 and 5, and even some more totally unknown to the family books. Can Witzel show, from the references in the Rigveda, that he is right and I am wrong? ? On pp.115-122, I show how Witzel, in his papers on Rigvedic history written in 1995, categorically identifies the Rigvedic Sarasvati with the Ghaggar-Hakra of Kurukshetra, categorically and repeatedly locates every single reference to Sarasvati in books 6, 3 and 7 with the Kurukshetra region, and categorically treats the reference to the Sarasvati which flows from the mountains to the sea in VII.95.2 as a reference to the river of Kurukshetra (and even dates the verse to before 1500 B.C. on the ground that the river of Kurukshetra had dried up by that date). But after reading my book, Witzel suddenly discovers that the Sarasvati of books 6, 3 and 7 is either the river of Afghanistan, or the name of a woman or a deity, or a reference to the ? night-time sky ?, and that the reference in VII.95.2 is to the river of Afghanistan (with the sea in the verse turning out to be the Hamun-i Hilmand). Can Witzel justify this opportunistic volte-face? ? Likewise, on pp.125-128, I show how Witzel, in all his papers written from 1995 to 2000, categorically treats the reference to the Ganga in VI.45.31 as belonging to the ? early Rgvedic period ? and as a reference found in one of the ? oldest hymns ? in one of ? the oldest books ?, categorically older than at least books 1-3 and 7-10 of the Rigveda, and as evidence that ? early Aryan settlement ? extended ? upto Yamuna/Ganga ?, and he even takes up issue with other western scholars who feel otherwise. But after reading my book, Witzel suddenly discovers that this reference ? occurs in a trca that could be an even later addition to this additional hymn ?, and finds that he has to ? immediately throw out the reference to the Ganges that appears at RV 6.45.31 ?. Can Witzel justify this second opportunistic volte-face? ? On p. 170-173, I show how Witzel arbitrarily decides that the Mitanni language had no retroflexes, and, therefore, that this is evidence against their migration from India . I have shown how the data available is totally insufficient to give any logical ground whatsoever for deciding that the Mitanni IA language had no retroflexes (apart from the fact that even proven absence of retroflexion in Mitanni IA would have been no evidence that they had not migrated from India). Can Witzel produce convincing logical evidence to prove his two points? ? On p.191, I show how Witzel, on two different pages of the same paper, treats the word armaka in the Rigveda as the ? ruins ? of the (according to him non-Aryan) Indus civilization, citing Falk 1981, and as ? shallow remnants of the IA settlements ?, citing Rau, 1983. Can Witzel clarify his position on this? ? On pp.192-197, I show how Witzel treats a group of words, which he categorizes as BMAC words (words allegedly borrowed by the Indo-Iranians from the alleged language of the BMAC of Central Asia) as representing a pre -Rigvedic heritage. However all these words are missing in the earlier group of books (2-4, 6-7) of the Rigveda, and are found only in the later group of books (1, 5, 8-10) ? earlier and later as per a chronological consensus among western scholars ? and in all post-Rigvedic texts, and in the Avesta. Can Witzel logically explain this contradiction? On pp.295-297, I have shown how Witzel tries verbal jugglery and trickery in order to argue against the migration of the Indo-European dialects from India: he tells us that the ancestral forms of the western Indo-European dialects could not have migrated from India since if they had they ? would have taken with them a host of ?Indian? words ? as the gypsies (Roma, Sinti) indeed have done [?] the Gypsies, after all, have kept a large IA vocabulary alive, over the past 1000 years or so, during their wanderings all over the Near East, North Africa and Europe ?. He thus gives us the impression that his criterion is a group of ? Indian ? words which have been preserved by the Gypsies but not by the western Indo-European languages. Such a criterion would itself have been an unfair and illogical one, since the early development of the non-Indo-Aryan Indo-European dialects took place in the northwest ( beyond Pakistan ) ? see maps on pp.226-234 of my book ? and they emigrated from there in an early prehistoric period , while the Gypsies emigrated as speakers of an Indo-Aryan dialect from the interior of India just over a 1000 years ago; so the Gypsies could well have retained typically ?Indian? words not found in the western Indo-European languages. But what makes Witzel?s analogy really fraudulent is the fact that he gives two different groups of words to show that the Gypsies preserved ?Indian? words with them while the Indo-European dialects did not: he tells us that the Indo-Europeans did not preserve ? Indian words such as those for lion, tiger, elephant, leopard, lotus, bamboo, or some local Indian trees ? ? but then, neither did the Gypsies ! And he tells us that the Gypsies have preserved words such as ? e.g. phral ?brother?, pani ?water?, karal ?he does? ? ? but then, so have the western Indo-European dialects preserved words for ?brother?. ?water? and ?he does? ! Can Witzel explain this trickery? [Incidentally, the western Indo-European dialects in fact actually have preserved words for elephant (Vedic ibha , Greek el-ephas , Latin ebur ), monkey (Vedic kapi , English ape , Irish apa ) and leopard (Vedic prdaku , Greek pardos , Hittite parsana )!] ? All these are concrete factual criticisms based on hard, concrete data , of things actually written by Witzel, and the correctness or otherwise of each of these pieces of criticism can be verified by examining this hard, concrete data. See also my criticism of Witzel on pp.112-113, 189-190, 255, 263, 290-307, and elsewhere. Fournet could have taken a leaf out of my book, and presented a logical critique based on factual criticisms of the hard facts, data and evidence presented by me, rather than presenting a mass of verbal vomit consisting basically of vindictive polemical monologues. ? But polemicists like Witzel and Fournet are incapable of honest and decent debate. They do not have the guts to present an honest and factual critique of the data and conclusions presented in other people?s writings any more than they have the guts to reply to honest and factual critiques of the data and conclusions presented in their own writings. If they choose to merely comment on this reply, expect name-calling or haughty dismissals. If they choose to reply at some length, expect more verbal vomit, and plenty of dot-bashing. But do not expect honest and serious debate and discussion. [?Dot-bashing?, from the earlier ?dot-busting?, is increasingly replacing anti-Semitism and Ku-Klux-ism as the favourite form of ethnic bashing in certain western academic circles since it is also the safest: firstly it is still ?politically correct?, and secondly even many co-opted and willing-to-be-co-opted Indians can be induced to join in the ? fun ? (as pointed out earlier, Witzel?s favourite word for it) or will even do so willingly]?? ? In the end, to genuinely unprejudiced and impartial readers of this reply, I can only repeat what I wrote earlier on in this review: please carefully read both my book (although I admit it is rather dry and technical) as well as Fournet?s ?review? and decide for yourself: ? a) what exactly the ? real issues contained in the review ? are, and whether they really required to be addressed at all; and also whether or not Fournet himself has in fact addressed the very real issues in my book in his ?review?, and ? b) whether it is I who do not understand ? how to write a book ? (and have to learn ? how to write a book ? from this joker), or whether it is Fournet who does not understand how to read a book, or how to understand what he is reading even when it is set out in plain English. ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: AReplyToAJoker.doc Type: application/msword Size: 262656 bytes Desc: not available URL: From audrey.truschke at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 16:00:18 2015 From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 09:00:18 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Friendly Reminder: INDOLOGY posts are best short and sweet Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, This is a friendly reminder that the best way to converse on INDOLOGY is with messages that are concise and on point. As a rule of thumb, one screen-full of text is a good benchmark. On this issue, I invite everybody to review the membership guidelines , especially paragraph 7. Many thanks. Audrey Truschke (INDOLOGY committee member on duty) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From koenraad.elst at telenet.be Mon Jun 22 16:10:01 2015 From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 18:10:01 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Politics of ICHR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <632077694.192623693.1434989401519.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Dear listfolk, >< On the Indocentric side, that would imply a primary course of comparative-historical linguistics, not studied in India at all > > >From my experience, it is entirely correct as far as Indo-European is concerned. Yes, of course Indians know a lot more about the internal relations between Indian languages. But the Indo-European (and Nostratic etc.) perspective, I have not yet seen there. Most list members here already knew Latin and Greek before they embarked on their philological studies, plus modern languages belonging to at least two IE branches, say German and French, or Russian and English. That basis for a comparative perspective is already missing in India. Further, the international perspective is also rare, and typically stops at the Khyber Pass. That is why among the numerous Indian scholars who are convinced that there was no Aryan invasion, only a handful will also vocalize its logical implication, viz. that if IE was not imported, it must have originated in India and then spread westwards. That westward part, how IE came to be spoken in Central and parts of Western Asia as well as in Europe, simply doesn't interest them, it just doesn't figure in their imagination. That is why, while the non-AIT is widespread in India, a real OIT dealing with the IE spread from India westward, is limited to a handful of people. Indeed, for most Indians concerned, it was flattering when Edwin Bryant coined the term "Out-of-India" for the opposite of the AIT. But the Indian professors who doubt my testimony can of course prove me wrong -- by presenting some original comparative linguistic research about IE produced by Indians. I have looked for it for years and not found it, but I am very fallible and my means are limited. So, you are welcome to surprise me. Long ago, people like SK Chatterji did important and original work, even if labouring under a paradigm introduced by the British. (Nevertheless he insisted on the kinship of Austronesian and IE, a position hard to reconcile with the Pontic homeland theory.) But since then, linguistic studies have greatly suffered in India (in Europe too, in the name of "relevance" and "budget cuts"; my home university has even abolished the course of IE as well as the Indology department). As Sheldon Pollock has pointed out, Apabhramsa, MIA and other "useless" linguistic expertise has virtually disappeared, and knowledge of Sanskrit has also declined. But long ago, yes, they had it. Shivakumara Rao's "The Aryan Home" is a linguistic study of the homeland question that shows knowledge of the state of the art all while defending the OIT. It was written in 1957 (and recently republished), and though far from flawless, it could have been used as a starting-point for further research, and a pro-OIT case could have been built decades ago. But that was not to be. Kind regards, Koenraad Elst From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 17:06:27 2015 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 22:36:27 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Politics of ICHR In-Reply-To: <632077694.192623693.1434989401519.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Message-ID: It is strange that the correspondent has not exhibited his awarenes of B.K.Ghosh, Sukumar Sen, K.C.Chatterji who looked beyond the Khyber Pass. The logic of this if any is not comprehensible to me. The invasion theory is not highlighted in India but the migration theory is. Best DB On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 9:40 PM, wrote: > Dear listfolk, > > > >< On the Indocentric side, that would imply a primary course of > comparative-historical linguistics, not studied in India at all > > > > > > > From my experience, it is entirely correct as far as Indo-European is > concerned. > > Yes, of course Indians know a lot more about the internal relations > between Indian languages. But the Indo-European (and Nostratic etc.) > perspective, I have not yet seen there. Most list members here already knew > Latin and Greek before they embarked on their philological studies, plus > modern languages belonging to at least two IE branches, say German and > French, or Russian and English. That basis for a comparative perspective is > already missing in India. Further, the international perspective is also > rare, and typically stops at the Khyber Pass. That is why among the > numerous Indian scholars who are convinced that there was no Aryan > invasion, only a handful will also vocalize its logical implication, viz. > that if IE was not imported, it must have originated in India and then > spread westwards. That westward part, how IE came to be spoken in Central > and parts of Western Asia as well as in Europe, simply doesn't interest > them, it just doesn't figure in their imagination. That is why, while the > non-AIT is widespread in India, a real OIT dealing with the IE spread from > India westward, is limited to a handful of people. Indeed, for most Indians > concerned, it was flattering when Edwin Bryant coined the term > "Out-of-India" for the opposite of the AIT. > > But the Indian professors who doubt my testimony can of course prove me > wrong -- by presenting some original comparative linguistic research about > IE produced by Indians. I have looked for it for years and not found it, > but I am very fallible and my means are limited. So, you are welcome to > surprise me. > > Long ago, people like SK Chatterji did important and original work, even > if labouring under a paradigm introduced by the British. (Nevertheless he > insisted on the kinship of Austronesian and IE, a position hard to > reconcile with the Pontic homeland theory.) But since then, linguistic > studies have greatly suffered in India (in Europe too, in the name of > "relevance" and "budget cuts"; my home university has even abolished the > course of IE as well as the Indology department). As Sheldon Pollock has > pointed out, Apabhramsa, MIA and other "useless" linguistic expertise has > virtually disappeared, and knowledge of Sanskrit has also declined. > > But long ago, yes, they had it. Shivakumara Rao's "The Aryan Home" is a > linguistic study of the homeland question that shows knowledge of the state > of the art all while defending the OIT. It was written in 1957 (and > recently republished), and though far from flawless, it could have been > used as a starting-point for further research, and a pro-OIT case could > have been built decades ago. But that was not to be. > > Kind regards, > > > Koenraad Elst > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 17:48:06 2015 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 23:18:06 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Politics of ICHR In-Reply-To: <632077694.192623693.1434989401519.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Message-ID: It is forgotten that Comparative linguistics is a modern subject that gained consensus in the second half of the 19th century. S.C.Vidya Bhushan very quickly took up Grimm's law and its corollaries. Why see only one side of the picture and try to create the impression that that is the true side? The 'out of India' theory is trying to make a place for it -- I named only a few of the scholars who took to Comparative linguistics - but it has not yet got a place for it in philological research. Professor Koenraad's idea that Indians do not learn French, Russian. Italian and German is, to say the least, wrong. He should personally verify the situation.. DB. On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 9:40 PM, wrote: > Dear listfolk, > > > >< On the Indocentric side, that would imply a primary course of > comparative-historical linguistics, not studied in India at all > > > > > > > From my experience, it is entirely correct as far as Indo-European is > concerned. > > Yes, of course Indians know a lot more about the internal relations > between Indian languages. But the Indo-European (and Nostratic etc.) > perspective, I have not yet seen there. Most list members here already knew > Latin and Greek before they embarked on their philological studies, plus > modern languages belonging to at least two IE branches, say German and > French, or Russian and English. That basis for a comparative perspective is > already missing in India. Further, the international perspective is also > rare, and typically stops at the Khyber Pass. That is why among the > numerous Indian scholars who are convinced that there was no Aryan > invasion, only a handful will also vocalize its logical implication, viz. > that if IE was not imported, it must have originated in India and then > spread westwards. That westward part, how IE came to be spoken in Central > and parts of Western Asia as well as in Europe, simply doesn't interest > them, it just doesn't figure in their imagination. That is why, while the > non-AIT is widespread in India, a real OIT dealing with the IE spread from > India westward, is limited to a handful of people. Indeed, for most Indians > concerned, it was flattering when Edwin Bryant coined the term > "Out-of-India" for the opposite of the AIT. > > But the Indian professors who doubt my testimony can of course prove me > wrong -- by presenting some original comparative linguistic research about > IE produced by Indians. I have looked for it for years and not found it, > but I am very fallible and my means are limited. So, you are welcome to > surprise me. > > Long ago, people like SK Chatterji did important and original work, even > if labouring under a paradigm introduced by the British. (Nevertheless he > insisted on the kinship of Austronesian and IE, a position hard to > reconcile with the Pontic homeland theory.) But since then, linguistic > studies have greatly suffered in India (in Europe too, in the name of > "relevance" and "budget cuts"; my home university has even abolished the > course of IE as well as the Indology department). As Sheldon Pollock has > pointed out, Apabhramsa, MIA and other "useless" linguistic expertise has > virtually disappeared, and knowledge of Sanskrit has also declined. > > But long ago, yes, they had it. Shivakumara Rao's "The Aryan Home" is a > linguistic study of the homeland question that shows knowledge of the state > of the art all while defending the OIT. It was written in 1957 (and > recently republished), and though far from flawless, it could have been > used as a starting-point for further research, and a pro-OIT case could > have been built decades ago. But that was not to be. > > Kind regards, > > > Koenraad Elst > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From koenraad.elst at telenet.be Mon Jun 22 18:27:44 2015 From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 20:27:44 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Politics of ICHR: Talageri In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1266159011.192941566.1434997664269.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Dear listfolk, >I'm familiar with the debates between Witzel and Talageri. By the way, do you have links to those?< The online availability of Talageri's texts poses a bit of a problem, let's see if it can be fixed in the next few days. I found the sequel of his polemic with Fournet, very polemical indeed, but for archival sake, see below. Meanwhile, here are the links to some webinars where Talageri explains his case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ewwXYfRi5s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMddJXhw62k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYbx83tI9OQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1kCxxbbakk That much for an introduction, his books give the details. Kind regards, Koenraad Elst ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ More Jokes from Fournet. Arnaud Fournet has responded to my reply (?A detailed reply to a joker?s ?review? of my book?) to his ?review? of my book in the only way he knows how: through bluster, polemics and escapist rhetoric. First, he begins by protesting against being clubbed with the Farmer-Witzel pack of jokers, forgetting that it was this pack of jokers alone who welcomed his original ?review? of my book with gleeful enthusiasm. I am aware that he is not on good terms with them, but that has nothing to do with the fact that he and they have common reactions when it comes to OIT writings in general and my books in particular. Next, stung at his cheap comments on the color and smell of my book being exposed in my reply for what they reveal of his mentality and attitude, Fournet goes on the defensive: ?I never mentioned the smell as unpleasant. It is only his own personality that turns a neutral sentence into a personal aggression?. Oh really? How many people would agree that his cheap comments were neutral, or that such comments are what one can expect in a decent scholarly review of a book? Next, he makes a pathetic attempt at sarcasm: ?In his reply states that ?[he is] not answerable for a number of problems in the book, such as wrong page numbers or ?Incidentally, Elst in the index in bold type with no page number? [?] Who is the author of the book? I seriously doubt that the printer and publisher is responsible for these features of the book [?] things would be clearer if Mr. Talageri could indicate what parts of the book he considers to be answerable for?. This whole thing only emphasizes again the pathetic nature of Fournet?s criticism that a wrong page number cited in the contents and a wrong inclusion of a word in the index constitute the big ?problems? in my book! It also shows his utter non-acquaintance with the process of book publication. For his information, the printed versions of the book were sent to me twice (in Mumbai) for proof reading (by the publishers in New Delhi). After I had completed all my corrections, the publishers prepared the final version for print, and it was only at this point that they finalized the page numbers. It was not sent to me again for proof reading the page numbers! I sent the publishers two lists of words to be included in the index. The page numbers for each word were to be listed in the index by a mechanical computer process (not my field), and it was not expected that I would have to proof read this also. If a word in my list had no page number (the publisher did not include my preface, which mentioned Koenraad, in his index listing), the word should have been excluded by the publisher from the index. At any rate, I only saw the final printed version. Typically, Fournet makes an issue of this, and uses this as an excuse for his failure to deal with the real issues in my book. After the references to Farmer and Witzel, the smell of my book, and the printer?s errors, Fournet next turns to my use of fonts. I have answered this pathetic issue in my reply, and wont waste more time on it. Finally, Fournet ends his response to my reply (or rather, he ends his ?Review part 2?) with rhetoric and polemics in arguing that the pages and pages and pages of data and references in my book are ?either irrelevant or inconclusive. They just prove nothing per se?. Therefore it does not matter whether or not ?the data are false or need to be falsified or improved?! So he only succeeds in emphasizing my point that, to him, rhetoric and polemics are a substitute for data, facts, references and statistics. If nothing else, the sharp difference between my reply and his response to it must be noted. My reply takes care to reply to every point raised by him, and even to every comment made by him, with logic and facts. Like his ?review?, his response to my reply avoids replying to or dealing with anything written by me, and seeks to escape with name calling and general rhetoric. But most pathetic of all is his attempt, in a mail debate on an internet site following my reply, to try his hand for once at interpreting data instead of only depending on rhetoric. In this mail, he writes: ?we have De-u-wa-at-ti in Mitanni (in the late period!) and this is the same as Deva-vat in the old books [?] one of the late Mitanni princes has a name which is the same as one of the oldest RV names!? Firstly, Fournet has not at all understood the nature of the data. We can have someone named Vikramaditya in twentieth century India, but we could not have a name such as Rocky, or even Gurpreet or Pandurang, in fifth century India. The point is that the Avestan and Mitanni names predominantly include name types which only came into existence in the Late period and books of the Rigveda, and were completely missing in the Early and Middle periods and books. If Fournet could manage to find an old name still in use among the Mitanni, it would prove nothing. But Fournet can not even find that. He tries to identify Mitanni De-u-wa-at-ti with the old Devavat. But he only succeeds in putting his foot in his mouth. De-u-wa-at-ti is not Devavat but the late Devatithi (the name of the composer of hymn VIII.4). It is not a lone or isolated name: we have the equivalents of Maryatithi, Priyatithi, Mitratithi, Indratithi, Suryatithi, etc. in the Mitanni names. Are they all Maryavat, Priyavat, Mitravat, Indravat, Suryavat, etc.? Fournet should stick to jeering rhetoric. That is his only forte. I don?t think his pathetic response merits any further response. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Arnaud?s Letter Dt. 11/6/2010 The Chicken-Run show goes on. So we have the second final final reply. It's really funny to see that 1. on the one hand, we have Koenraad Elst parading on Cybalist, where I cannot even post any reply at all... 2. on the other hand, Mr Talageri, who speaks about "having the guts in their balls", is not even capable of showing up here himself... Apart from these pathetic features, if we address a real issue, we can see that Talageri is just completely distorting the data. impossibly stands for devatithi as the sequence -atithi is written in the name ?uwatiti. The reading -atithi (with three syllables) for -ati or -atti (with two syllables) is invention. As far as inventing data goes, we can further discuss the other words: Talageri wrote: "we have the equivalents of Maryatithi, Priyatithi, Mitratithi, Indratithi, Suryatithi, etc. in the Mitanni names." - Maryatithi does not exist. Mariatti exists. - Priyatithi this word is Bi-ri-(a)-at-ti possibly standing for viryatti (Note that the vowel -a- seems to be long). - Mitratithi what exists is a mutilated word mi-it-ta-xx-at-ti possibly mittaratti? this word is not listed as potentially IA by some authors (Gelb for example). - Indratithi does not exist. Indaratti exists. - Suryatithi does not exist. Suriatti exists. - etc. which etc.?? Best A. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Final Reply To Fournet 12/6/2010 It is clear that Fournet really does not have the guts in his balls to deal with the data and facts in my book. But since he has made the mistake of taking up one piece of data, the Mitanni name Deuwatti, we can confine the whole debate to this one word. [Incidentally, as I pointed out, Fournet demonstrates here also his inability to understand English: he quotes me saying "we have the equivalents of Maryatithi, Priyatithi, Mitratithi, Indratithi, Suryatithi, etc. in the Mitanni names.", but he is not able to understand what "the equivalents of" means, and thinks he is countering me by making silly statements like "Indratithi does not exist. Indaratti exists" etc.! Apparently he is quite incapable of understanding that what I said was not that the word "Indratithi" in this Sanskrit form is found in Mitanni, but that "the equivalent of" Indratithi (=Indaratti) is found in Mitanni. It is impossible to debate anything with a person whose brain is so extremely obtuse]. In respect of Deuwatti, note that this name is found in company with a host of other names: we will only take here those Mitanni names accepted by Fournet in his response: Mariatti, Biriatti, Mitaratti, Indaratti, Suriatti. Is it Fournet's claim that the atti in all these names is not atithi? If so, what does he claim it is? More importantly, how many other serious scholars studying the subject can he produce who will agree that the atti in all these words is not atithi? Two of these names, Mitratithi and Devatithi are found in the Rigveda itself. Or does Fournet claim that the atti in Deuwatti alone (which he will claim is actually vatti) is different from the atti in the other words (which is clearly not vatti)? Again, how many serious scholars will agree with this convenient exception? Further, Fournet childishly argues: "The reading -atithi (with three syllables) for -ati or -atti (with two syllables) is invention". Then what about his reading "vatti" with two syllables for his claimed "vat" with one syllable (since he claims Deuwatti=Devavat)? Why the additional "ti" if it represents Devavat? Also, ignorant Fournet (ignorant even after it is clearly given in my book) is unaware that the known Avestan equivalent of three syllabled Vedic "atithi" is two syllabled "asti"! Fournet has staked his all on the one word Deuwatti. I challenge this pathetic joker to show that the consensus or even the majority scholarly opinion is on his side on this point. From glhart at berkeley.edu Mon Jun 22 18:30:28 2015 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 11:30:28 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Politics of ICHR: Talageri In-Reply-To: <1266159011.192941566.1434997664269.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Message-ID: Would it be possible to start a new list for those who wish to discuss the ?out-of-India? theory? In my view, the issue has long been conclusively settled, and I find the sort of discussion going on now both irrelevant and disturbing. Thanks. George Hart > On Jun 22, 2015, at 11:27 AM, koenraad.elst at telenet.be wrote: > > Dear listfolk, > > >> I'm familiar with the debates between Witzel and Talageri. By the way, do you have links to those?< > > > The online availability of Talageri's texts poses a bit of a problem, let's see if it can be fixed in the next few days. I found the sequel of his polemic with Fournet, very polemical indeed, but for archival sake, see below. Meanwhile, here are the links to some webinars where Talageri explains his case: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ewwXYfRi5s > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMddJXhw62k > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYbx83tI9OQ > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1kCxxbbakk > > That much for an introduction, his books give the details. > > Kind regards, > > > Koenraad Elst > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > More Jokes from Fournet. > > > Arnaud Fournet has responded to my reply (?A detailed reply to a joker?s ?review? of my book?) to his ?review? of my book in the only way he knows how: through bluster, polemics and escapist rhetoric. > > First, he begins by protesting against being clubbed with the Farmer-Witzel pack of jokers, forgetting that it was this pack of jokers alone who welcomed his original ?review? of my book with gleeful enthusiasm. I am aware that he is not on good terms with them, but that has nothing to do with the fact that he and they have common reactions when it comes to OIT writings in general and my books in particular. > > Next, stung at his cheap comments on the color and smell of my book being exposed in my reply for what they reveal of his mentality and attitude, Fournet goes on the defensive: ?I never mentioned the smell as unpleasant. It is only his own personality that turns a neutral sentence into a personal aggression?. Oh really? How many people would agree that his cheap comments were neutral, or that such comments are what one can expect in a decent scholarly review of a book? > > Next, he makes a pathetic attempt at sarcasm: ?In his reply states that ?[he is] not answerable for a number of problems in the book, such as wrong page numbers or ?Incidentally, Elst in the index in bold type with no page number? [?] Who is the author of the book? I seriously doubt that the printer and publisher is responsible for these features of the book [?] things would be clearer if Mr. Talageri could indicate what parts of the book he considers to be answerable for?. > > This whole thing only emphasizes again the pathetic nature of Fournet?s criticism that a wrong page number cited in the contents and a wrong inclusion of a word in the index constitute the big ?problems? in my book! It also shows his utter non-acquaintance with the process of book publication. For his information, the printed versions of the book were sent to me twice (in Mumbai) for proof reading (by the publishers in New Delhi). After I had completed all my corrections, the publishers prepared the final version for print, and it was only at this point that they finalized the page numbers. It was not sent to me again for proof reading the page numbers! I sent the publishers two lists of words to be included in the index. The page numbers for each word were to be listed in the index by a mechanical computer process (not my field), and it was not expected that I would have to proof read this also. If a word in my list had no page number (the publisher did not include my preface, which mentioned Koenraad, in his index listing), the word should have been excluded by the publisher from the index. At any rate, I only saw the final printed version. Typically, Fournet makes an issue of this, and uses this as an excuse for his failure to deal with the real issues in my book. > > After the references to Farmer and Witzel, the smell of my book, and the printer?s errors, Fournet next turns to my use of fonts. I have answered this pathetic issue in my reply, and wont waste more time on it. > > Finally, Fournet ends his response to my reply (or rather, he ends his ?Review part 2?) with rhetoric and polemics in arguing that the pages and pages and pages of data and references in my book are ?either irrelevant or inconclusive. They just prove nothing per se?. Therefore it does not matter whether or not ?the data are false or need to be falsified or improved?! So he only succeeds in emphasizing my point that, to him, rhetoric and polemics are a substitute for data, facts, references and statistics. > > If nothing else, the sharp difference between my reply and his response to it must be noted. My reply takes care to reply to every point raised by him, and even to every comment made by him, with logic and facts. Like his ?review?, his response to my reply avoids replying to or dealing with anything written by me, and seeks to escape with name calling and general rhetoric. > > But most pathetic of all is his attempt, in a mail debate on an internet site following my reply, to try his hand for once at interpreting data instead of only depending on rhetoric. In this mail, he writes: ?we have De-u-wa-at-ti in Mitanni (in the late period!) and this is the same as Deva-vat in the old books [?] one of the late Mitanni princes has a name which is the same as one of the oldest RV names!? > > Firstly, Fournet has not at all understood the nature of the data. We can have someone named Vikramaditya in twentieth century India, but we could not have a name such as Rocky, or even Gurpreet or Pandurang, in fifth century India. The point is that the Avestan and Mitanni names predominantly include name types which only came into existence in the Late period and books of the Rigveda, and were completely missing in the Early and Middle periods and books. If Fournet could manage to find an old name still in use among the Mitanni, it would prove nothing. > > But Fournet can not even find that. He tries to identify Mitanni De-u-wa-at-ti with the old Devavat. But he only succeeds in putting his foot in his mouth. De-u-wa-at-ti is not Devavat but the late Devatithi (the name of the composer of hymn VIII.4). It is not a lone or isolated name: we have the equivalents of Maryatithi, Priyatithi, Mitratithi, Indratithi, Suryatithi, etc. in the Mitanni names. Are they all Maryavat, Priyavat, Mitravat, Indravat, Suryavat, etc.? Fournet should stick to jeering rhetoric. That is his only forte. > > I don?t think his pathetic response merits any further response. > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Arnaud?s Letter Dt. 11/6/2010 > > > > The Chicken-Run show goes on. So we have the second final final reply. > > It's really funny to see that > 1. on the one hand, we have Koenraad Elst parading on Cybalist, where I cannot even post any reply at all... > 2. on the other hand, Mr Talageri, who speaks about "having the guts in their balls", is not even capable of showing up here himself... > > > Apart from these pathetic features, > if we address a real issue, we can see that Talageri is just completely distorting the data. > > impossibly stands for devatithi as the sequence -atithi is written in the name ?uwatiti. > > The reading -atithi (with three syllables) for -ati or -atti (with two syllables) is invention. > > As far as inventing data goes, we can further discuss the other words: > > Talageri wrote: "we have the equivalents of Maryatithi, Priyatithi, Mitratithi, Indratithi, Suryatithi, etc. in the Mitanni names." > > - Maryatithi does not exist. Mariatti exists. > - Priyatithi this word is Bi-ri-(a)-at-ti possibly standing for viryatti (Note that the vowel -a- seems to be long). > - Mitratithi what exists is a mutilated word mi-it-ta-xx-at-ti possibly mittaratti? this word is not listed as potentially IA by some authors (Gelb for example). > - Indratithi does not exist. Indaratti exists. > - Suryatithi does not exist. Suriatti exists. > - etc. which etc.?? > > Best > > A. > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Final Reply To Fournet 12/6/2010 > > It is clear that Fournet really does not have the guts in his balls to deal with the data and facts in my book. But since he has made the mistake of taking up one piece of data, the Mitanni name Deuwatti, we can confine the whole debate to this one word. [Incidentally, as I pointed out, Fournet demonstrates here also his inability to understand English: he quotes me saying "we have the equivalents of Maryatithi, Priyatithi, Mitratithi, Indratithi, Suryatithi, etc. in the Mitanni names.", but he is not able to understand what "the equivalents of" means, and thinks he is countering me by making silly statements like "Indratithi does not exist. Indaratti exists" etc.! Apparently he is quite incapable of understanding that what I said was not that the word "Indratithi" in this Sanskrit form is found in Mitanni, but that "the equivalent of" Indratithi (=Indaratti) is found in Mitanni. It is impossible to debate anything with a person whose brain is so extremely obtuse]. > > In respect of Deuwatti, note that this name is found in company with a host of other names: we will only take here those Mitanni names accepted by Fournet in his response: Mariatti, Biriatti, Mitaratti, Indaratti, Suriatti. Is it Fournet's claim that the atti in all these names is not atithi? If so, what does he claim it is? More importantly, how many other serious scholars studying the subject can he produce who will agree that the atti in all these words is not atithi? Two of these names, Mitratithi and Devatithi are found in the Rigveda itself. Or does Fournet claim that the atti in Deuwatti alone (which he will claim is actually vatti) is different from the atti in the other words (which is clearly not vatti)? Again, how many serious scholars will agree with this convenient exception? > > Further, Fournet childishly argues: "The reading -atithi (with three syllables) for -ati or -atti (with two syllables) is invention". Then what about his reading "vatti" with two syllables for his claimed "vat" with one syllable (since he claims Deuwatti=Devavat)? Why the additional "ti" if it represents Devavat? Also, ignorant Fournet (ignorant even after it is clearly given in my book) is unaware that the known Avestan equivalent of three syllabled Vedic "atithi" is two syllabled "asti"! > > Fournet has staked his all on the one word Deuwatti. I challenge this pathetic joker to show that the consensus or even the majority scholarly opinion is on his side on this point. > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 19:03:03 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 21:03:03 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Politics of ICHR: Talageri In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's very easy to filter things out nowadays, George. All the main email client programs have excellent facilties for noticing a collocation of keywords and dumping those emails. Or just storing them out of sight, if you don't want to lose them altogether. I think it's a more effective approach to take control that way, than to fragment an already small intellectual community into single-topic ghettos. ? ?You use ?Apple Mail (2.2102); I've never used a Mac, but perhaps these pages may help. Actually, I think this is the way our reading will go increasingly in the future. We'll be using aggregators like Feedly that filter things according to our criteria, and provide us with the reading matter we're actually interested in, suppressing everything else. Best, Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Mon Jun 22 19:03:17 2015 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 19:03:17 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Politics of ICHR: Talageri In-Reply-To: <1266159011.192941566.1434997664269.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Message-ID: <0770295B-0B11-498E-BCCB-ED96DAC15FCA@illinois.edu> Talageri?s The Rigveda and the Avesta: The final solution is avaible, minus maps (I believe), at http://ancientvoice.wdfiles.com/local--files/article%3Arigveda-and-avesta-the-final-evidence/Rigveda%20and%20The%20Avestha.pdf Close reading shows that Talageri?s attempt to ?prove? certain books of the Rig Veda to be older and others (which refer to more northwestern areas) much younger is problematic on numerous counts. To name just one: He argues that names with ?suffix? a?va are late and in so doing claims that the Ka?va portions of book 8 are recent because they contain the name ?y??v??va (without even attempting to refute Arnold?s argument that much of this material is among the most ancient); but since book 6, which Talageri wants to claim is older, contains the word vadhrya?v?, which also contains the ?suffix? a?va, he claims that the latter must be old ?as shown by its accent, which treats it as a single fused word rather than a hyphenated compound word like the rest? (p. 13). The accent placement in vadhrya?v?, however, follows a regular Rig Vedic pattern that is limited to bahuvr?his whose first member is an i- or u-stem (Wackernagel-Debrunner 1957: 296-298). Talageri?s attempt to use words ending in a?va to justify a chronology of the Rig Veda that conflicts with that of Arnold or other traditional scholars, thus, is not supported by the evidence. (In fact, his use of the terms ?prefix? and ?suffix? to refer to members of compounds and the claim that 'In the Early Rigvedic period, we find that suffixes as such had not yet come into vogue in personal names or, at any rate, not suffixes in common with the Avesta? suffer from a lack of a clear definition and an appearance of arbitrariness. For instance, Talageri labels the d?vo in d?vo-d?sa as a prefix (indicating that the compound must be old), but gives no rationale against considering -d?sa a suffix (which by his reasoning) should indicate that the compound is lage.) A detailed scholarly review of this book of Talageri?s is still very much only a desideratum? Best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock On 22 Jun 2015, at 13:27, koenraad.elst at telenet.be wrote: Dear listfolk, I'm familiar with the debates between Witzel and Talageri. By the way, do you have links to those?< The online availability of Talageri's texts poses a bit of a problem, let's see if it can be fixed in the next few days. I found the sequel of his polemic with Fournet, very polemical indeed, but for archival sake, see below. Meanwhile, here are the links to some webinars where Talageri explains his case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ewwXYfRi5s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMddJXhw62k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYbx83tI9OQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1kCxxbbakk That much for an introduction, his books give the details. Kind regards, Koenraad Elst ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ More Jokes from Fournet. Arnaud Fournet has responded to my reply (?A detailed reply to a joker?s ?review? of my book?) to his ?review? of my book in the only way he knows how: through bluster, polemics and escapist rhetoric. First, he begins by protesting against being clubbed with the Farmer-Witzel pack of jokers, forgetting that it was this pack of jokers alone who welcomed his original ?review? of my book with gleeful enthusiasm. I am aware that he is not on good terms with them, but that has nothing to do with the fact that he and they have common reactions when it comes to OIT writings in general and my books in particular. Next, stung at his cheap comments on the color and smell of my book being exposed in my reply for what they reveal of his mentality and attitude, Fournet goes on the defensive: ?I never mentioned the smell as unpleasant. It is only his own personality that turns a neutral sentence into a personal aggression?. Oh really? How many people would agree that his cheap comments were neutral, or that such comments are what one can expect in a decent scholarly review of a book? Next, he makes a pathetic attempt at sarcasm: ?In his reply states that ?[he is] not answerable for a number of problems in the book, such as wrong page numbers or ?Incidentally, Elst in the index in bold type with no page number? [?] Who is the author of the book? I seriously doubt that the printer and publisher is responsible for these features of the book [?] things would be clearer if Mr. Talageri could indicate what parts of the book he considers to be answerable for?. This whole thing only emphasizes again the pathetic nature of Fournet?s criticism that a wrong page number cited in the contents and a wrong inclusion of a word in the index constitute the big ?problems? in my book! It also shows his utter non-acquaintance with the process of book publication. For his information, the printed versions of the book were sent to me twice (in Mumbai) for proof reading (by the publishers in New Delhi). After I had completed all my corrections, the publishers prepared the final version for print, and it was only at this point that they finalized the page numbers. It was not sent to me again for proof reading the page numbers! I sent the publishers two lists of words to be included in the index. The page numbers for each word were to be listed in the index by a mechanical computer process (not my field), and it was not expected that I would have to proof read this also. If a word in my list had no page number (the publisher did not include my preface, which mentioned Koenraad, in his index listing), the word should have been excluded by the publisher from the index. At any rate, I only saw the final printed version. Typically, Fournet makes an issue of this, and uses this as an excuse for his failure to deal with the real issues in my book. After the references to Farmer and Witzel, the smell of my book, and the printer?s errors, Fournet next turns to my use of fonts. I have answered this pathetic issue in my reply, and wont waste more time on it. Finally, Fournet ends his response to my reply (or rather, he ends his ?Review part 2?) with rhetoric and polemics in arguing that the pages and pages and pages of data and references in my book are ?either irrelevant or inconclusive. They just prove nothing per se?. Therefore it does not matter whether or not ?the data are false or need to be falsified or improved?! So he only succeeds in emphasizing my point that, to him, rhetoric and polemics are a substitute for data, facts, references and statistics. If nothing else, the sharp difference between my reply and his response to it must be noted. My reply takes care to reply to every point raised by him, and even to every comment made by him, with logic and facts. Like his ?review?, his response to my reply avoids replying to or dealing with anything written by me, and seeks to escape with name calling and general rhetoric. But most pathetic of all is his attempt, in a mail debate on an internet site following my reply, to try his hand for once at interpreting data instead of only depending on rhetoric. In this mail, he writes: ?we have De-u-wa-at-ti in Mitanni (in the late period!) and this is the same as Deva-vat in the old books [?] one of the late Mitanni princes has a name which is the same as one of the oldest RV names!? Firstly, Fournet has not at all understood the nature of the data. We can have someone named Vikramaditya in twentieth century India, but we could not have a name such as Rocky, or even Gurpreet or Pandurang, in fifth century India. The point is that the Avestan and Mitanni names predominantly include name types which only came into existence in the Late period and books of the Rigveda, and were completely missing in the Early and Middle periods and books. If Fournet could manage to find an old name still in use among the Mitanni, it would prove nothing. But Fournet can not even find that. He tries to identify Mitanni De-u-wa-at-ti with the old Devavat. But he only succeeds in putting his foot in his mouth. De-u-wa-at-ti is not Devavat but the late Devatithi (the name of the composer of hymn VIII.4). It is not a lone or isolated name: we have the equivalents of Maryatithi, Priyatithi, Mitratithi, Indratithi, Suryatithi, etc. in the Mitanni names. Are they all Maryavat, Priyavat, Mitravat, Indravat, Suryavat, etc.? Fournet should stick to jeering rhetoric. That is his only forte. I don?t think his pathetic response merits any further response. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Arnaud?s Letter Dt. 11/6/2010 The Chicken-Run show goes on. So we have the second final final reply. It's really funny to see that 1. on the one hand, we have Koenraad Elst parading on Cybalist, where I cannot even post any reply at all... 2. on the other hand, Mr Talageri, who speaks about "having the guts in their balls", is not even capable of showing up here himself... Apart from these pathetic features, if we address a real issue, we can see that Talageri is just completely distorting the data. impossibly stands for devatithi as the sequence -atithi is written in the name ?uwatiti. The reading -atithi (with three syllables) for -ati or -atti (with two syllables) is invention. As far as inventing data goes, we can further discuss the other words: Talageri wrote: "we have the equivalents of Maryatithi, Priyatithi, Mitratithi, Indratithi, Suryatithi, etc. in the Mitanni names." - Maryatithi does not exist. Mariatti exists. - Priyatithi this word is Bi-ri-(a)-at-ti possibly standing for viryatti (Note that the vowel -a- seems to be long). - Mitratithi what exists is a mutilated word mi-it-ta-xx-at-ti possibly mittaratti? this word is not listed as potentially IA by some authors (Gelb for example). - Indratithi does not exist. Indaratti exists. - Suryatithi does not exist. Suriatti exists. - etc. which etc.?? Best A. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Final Reply To Fournet 12/6/2010 It is clear that Fournet really does not have the guts in his balls to deal with the data and facts in my book. But since he has made the mistake of taking up one piece of data, the Mitanni name Deuwatti, we can confine the whole debate to this one word. [Incidentally, as I pointed out, Fournet demonstrates here also his inability to understand English: he quotes me saying "we have the equivalents of Maryatithi, Priyatithi, Mitratithi, Indratithi, Suryatithi, etc. in the Mitanni names.", but he is not able to understand what "the equivalents of" means, and thinks he is countering me by making silly statements like "Indratithi does not exist. Indaratti exists" etc.! Apparently he is quite incapable of understanding that what I said was not that the word "Indratithi" in this Sanskrit form is found in Mitanni, but that "the equivalent of" Indratithi (=Indaratti) is found in Mitanni. It is impossible to debate anything with a person whose brain is so extremely obtuse]. In respect of Deuwatti, note that this name is found in company with a host of other names: we will only take here those Mitanni names accepted by Fournet in his response: Mariatti, Biriatti, Mitaratti, Indaratti, Suriatti. Is it Fournet's claim that the atti in all these names is not atithi? If so, what does he claim it is? More importantly, how many other serious scholars studying the subject can he produce who will agree that the atti in all these words is not atithi? Two of these names, Mitratithi and Devatithi are found in the Rigveda itself. Or does Fournet claim that the atti in Deuwatti alone (which he will claim is actually vatti) is different from the atti in the other words (which is clearly not vatti)? Again, how many serious scholars will agree with this convenient exception? Further, Fournet childishly argues: "The reading -atithi (with three syllables) for -ati or -atti (with two syllables) is invention". Then what about his reading "vatti" with two syllables for his claimed "vat" with one syllable (since he claims Deuwatti=Devavat)? Why the additional "ti" if it represents Devavat? Also, ignorant Fournet (ignorant even after it is clearly given in my book) is unaware that the known Avestan equivalent of three syllabled Vedic "atithi" is two syllabled "asti"! Fournet has staked his all on the one word Deuwatti. I challenge this pathetic joker to show that the consensus or even the majority scholarly opinion is on his side on this point. _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 19:24:42 2015 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 15:24:42 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Politics of ICHR: Talageri In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dominik, and List, Yes, it is easy to filter things out. I do that by not reading them. But if we publish on this list things that are not competent we give them an air of competence that they don't deserve. Right? Hans's recent note also makes the point. This is not good scholarship. Best wishes, George On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > It's very easy to filter things out nowadays, George. All the main email > client programs have excellent facilties for noticing a collocation of > keywords and dumping those emails. Or just storing them out of sight, if > you don't want to lose them altogether. I think it's a more effective > approach to take control that way, than to fragment an already small > intellectual community into single-topic ghettos. > ? > ?You use ?Apple Mail (2.2102); I've never used a Mac, but perhaps these > pages > may help. > > Actually, I think this is the way our reading will go increasingly in the > future. We'll be using aggregators like Feedly that > filter things according to our criteria, and provide us with the reading > matter we're actually interested in, suppressing everything else. > > Best, > Dominik > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From koenraad.elst at telenet.be Mon Jun 22 21:52:55 2015 From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 23:52:55 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Politics of ICHR: Indian linguists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <617540035.193275532.1435009975930.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Dear listfolk, ? >It is forgotten that Comparative linguistics is a modern subject that gained consensus in the second half of the 19th century. S.C.Vidya Bhushan very quickly took up Grimm's law and its corollaries.>< ? Look, I don't want to bore the list with an encyclopedic narrative about everything I know. Since Bhushan's work, BK Ghosh etc. are not relevant to the homeland debate today, I will not discuss them. I had volunteered some suggestions on why Indian linguists are so strangely absent from the homeland debate, but if you have a better explanation, that is fine with me. I note that we are at least in agreement about this absence, for in three replies, you have still not named one recent Indian contribution to the homeland debate, in spite of being challenged to name one. (Then again, I did name rising star GN Jha)?Well, it is not that important. ? ? >>The invasion theory is not highlighted in India but the migration theory is.<< ? Nor is?the distinction between "invasion" and "immigration". I think an "immigration" which leads to a complete language replacement in a far larger and more civilized population can only be explained by a conquest, by the immigrants becoming the ruling class. Of that, you have an archaeologically and genetically very well attested example in the Indo-Europeanization of Europe, with all the evidence that proves so elusive in the case of India. Also, I have found that some who insist on the weasel word "immigration" are nonetheless still really?thinking of an "invasion" scenario. But if you know of a peaceful immigration scenario that accounts for the known data, fine. I am not going to nitpick over these words, not even over the intrusion scenarios, as they are not what matters here. Invasion or immigration, both amount to the same basic scenario: Indo-European originated elsewhere and had to come into India by moving in. And that is the important question, that has kept Indo-Europeanist scholars (and non-scholars) busy for already two hundred years. I find the question rather exciting, and very consequential, so I am not going to insist on one scenario as?against another in subordinate questions. ? ? >>I named only a few of the scholars who took to Comparative linguistics - but it has not yet got a place for it in philological research. Professor Koenraad's idea that Indians do not learn French, Russian. Italian and German is, to say the least, wrong. He should personally verify the situation.<. ? Having acquainted myself with the Indian situation, I know that German is or has been on the curriculum of one important network?of schools; but those who study French (as a student in Varanasi, I used to converse in French with the daughter of Hindi writer Kashi Nath Singh), Russian etc. are very few, and those who study Latin and Greek (which played a crucial role in the discovery and systematization of the IE language family), are virtually non-existent. I think this is as it should be, students in France or America are not studying Oriya or Telugu either. But it also happens to imply that people are bound to be less equipped for and less interested in IE linguistics. That too is fine, for the main question in IE linguistics that is relevant to India, viz. the homeland question, will find its definitive solution within a few years. It is just around the corner, so the new generation need not burden its brain with exotic languages just to solve this academic little problem. ? And by the way, you do me too much honour by calling me Professor. But thanks for the mistake. :-) ? Kind regards, ? ? Dr. Koenraad Elst, independent scholar ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.ollett at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 01:06:18 2015 From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 15 21:06:18 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] request for AIOC 1961 paper/information Message-ID: Dear list members, Muni Pu?yavijaya presented a paper titled 'Jain ?gamadhar aur Pr?k?t V??maya' at the All-India Oriental Conference at Srinagar in 1961. The paper is not in vol. 2 part 1 of the proceedings, but it might be in the "summaries" (also edited, as far as I know, by V. Raghavan), which I don't presently have access to. Can anyone kindly check if Pu?yavijayaj?'s paper is included, and if so, what the page range is? Of course I would be grateful for a scan. with thanks, Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Tue Jun 23 02:34:25 2015 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 15 02:34:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Politics of ICHR: Talageri In-Reply-To: <1266159011.192941566.1434997664269.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Message-ID: <1092270579.3678581.1435026865734.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I agree with Dominik that the best way to deal with topics one doesn't like is to simply delete them unread.It only takes a few seconds. While most of the scholars on this list don't care to spend any time on the OIT, it is very much a part of our universe as Indologists. It's valuable to have at least one place where people can go to find the scholarly consensus on the subject. The Indology list seems like the natural place for that. There are certainly a plethora of sites offering the OIT perspective. At least the discussions on the topic these days are more polite and well-informed than in the past. Best, Dean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Tue Jun 23 02:51:00 2015 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 15 02:51:00 +0000 Subject: Anukramanis - warning - mentions Talageri in passing In-Reply-To: <1133803242.3689401.1435027587601.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1166306768.3690814.1435027860414.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I believe it's Talageri's second book that he says is based on the Anukramanis. Witzel replied: Which ones? This seemed to leave Talageri nonplussed. Can anyone recommend further reading on the Anukramanis? Apart from a few sources, it's not an area I've been able to find much information about. Best, Dean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 03:38:33 2015 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 15 09:08:33 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Politics of ICHR: Indian linguists In-Reply-To: <617540035.193275532.1435009975930.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Message-ID: 23 06 15 There was no desire on my part to sermonize as Dr. Elst tries to hint. The facts were relevant. A generalization of the knowledge of Varanasi or of Tirupati or of any religious centre does not give a picture of India. The given observations are in absolute terms. One might ask : where was comparative linguistics before Bopp? It is seeing the present in the past with generalization verging on stigmatization that sees a modern branch of knowledge existing in Europe from time immemorial and the absence thereof in some non-Western country. I would not have to make any observation if there was no searching of the cause for lack of this and that among Indians. It is ridiculous to expect the knowledge of various European languages among Indians just as it is to expect the knowledge of various Indian languages among Europeans. What picture will emerge if comparison were made between Indians speaking German or French or Europeans speaking Hindi or Tamil? Though educationally backward India will not give an unfavorable picture. I think we should now desist from the debate. At least I will. Best wishes Dipak Bhattacharya On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 3:22 AM, wrote: > Dear listfolk, > > > >It is forgotten that Comparative linguistics is a modern subject that > gained consensus in the second half of the 19th century. S.C.Vidya Bhushan > very quickly took up Grimm's law and its corollaries.>< > > Look, I don't want to bore the list with an encyclopedic narrative about > everything I know. Since Bhushan's work, BK Ghosh etc. are not relevant to > the homeland debate today, I will not discuss them. I had volunteered some > suggestions on why Indian linguists are so strangely absent from the > homeland debate, but if you have a better explanation, that is fine with > me. I note that we are at least in agreement about this absence, for in > three replies, you have still not named one recent Indian contribution to > the homeland debate, in spite of being challenged to name one. (Then again, > I did name rising star GN Jha) Well, it is not that important. > > > >>The invasion theory is not highlighted in India but the migration theory > is.<< > > Nor is the distinction between "invasion" and "immigration". I think an > "immigration" which leads to a complete language replacement in a far > larger and more civilized population can only be explained by a conquest, > by the immigrants becoming the ruling class. Of that, you have an > archaeologically and genetically very well attested example in the > Indo-Europeanization of Europe, with all the evidence that proves so > elusive in the case of India. Also, I have found that some who insist on > the weasel word "immigration" are nonetheless still really thinking of an > "invasion" scenario. But if you know of a peaceful immigration scenario > that accounts for the known data, fine. I am not going to nitpick over > these words, not even over the intrusion scenarios, as they are not what > matters here. Invasion or immigration, both amount to the same basic > scenario: Indo-European originated elsewhere and had to come into India by > moving in. And that is the important question, that has kept > Indo-Europeanist scholars (and non-scholars) busy for already two hundred > years. I find the question rather exciting, and very consequential, so I am > not going to insist on one scenario as against another in subordinate > questions. > > > >>I named only a few of the scholars who took to Comparative linguistics - > but it has not yet got a place for it in philological research. Professor > Koenraad's idea that Indians do not learn French, Russian. Italian and > German is, to say the least, wrong. He should personally verify the > situation.<. > > Having acquainted myself with the Indian situation, I know that German is > or has been on the curriculum of one important network of schools; but > those who study French (as a student in Varanasi, I used to converse in > French with the daughter of Hindi writer Kashi Nath Singh), Russian etc. > are very few, and those who study Latin and Greek (which played a crucial > role in the discovery and systematization of the IE language family), are > virtually non-existent. I think this is as it should be, students in France > or America are not studying Oriya or Telugu either. But it also happens to > imply that people are bound to be less equipped for and less interested in > IE linguistics. That too is fine, for the main question in IE linguistics > that is relevant to India, viz. the homeland question, will find its > definitive solution within a few years. It is just around the corner, so > the new generation need not burden its brain with exotic languages just to > solve this academic little problem. > > And by the way, you do me too much honour by calling me Professor. But > thanks for the mistake. :-) > > Kind regards, > > > Dr. Koenraad Elst, independent scholar > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 06:33:47 2015 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 15 08:33:47 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anukramanis - warning - mentions Talageri in passing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dean, Anukramanis contain all the information vaidikas might want to know about the Vedic hymns they are learning and transmitting (rsi, devata and chandas of hymns and stanzas), except information about their ritual application. Information from the anukramanis is integrated into the recitations of Rgvedins, in Sayana's commentaries and in the Brhaddevata. In turn, the sources on which the anukramani-authors based themselves may have been Brahmanas and now lost Brahmana-like traditions. Jan Gonda (H.I.L. vol. 1) Vedic Literature Wiesbaden 1975 would be as usual a good starting point: factual and conceptual basics with bibliographic references to relevant publications in the west and in India up to the early seventies. See pp 34-35 in a section mainly dealing with the Rgveda: "The anukramanis[80], though not belonging to the vedangas proper, cannot be separated from these auxiliary sciences. These succinct versified indexes? Anuvakanukramani, Arsanukramani[81] and three others[82]?provide us with lists of rsis, metres, deities, sections of the Rgveda and (the Chandanukramani) the numbers of the stanzas of the hymns[83]. Belonging to the last centuries of the Vedic period (? 5th-3rd cent. B.C.) they are attributed to Saunaka except the more recent and systematic prose sutra-work called Sarvanukramani, a "General Index" (? 350 B.C.), which, combining the data contained in the metrical anukramanis, is held to have been composed by Katyayana, the famous teacher of the Yajurveda[84]. With the SrautasUtra of the White Yajurveda by the same author it has the concise character of its style in common[85]." Gonda's main bibliographical references p 35 footnote: "Die Sarvanukramanl des Katyayana zum Rigveda, herausgegeben von A. A. MACDONELL, Thesis Leipzig, Oxford 1885; Katyayana's Sarvanukramanl . . . with extracts from Sadgurusisya's (12th cent.) commentary, edited by A. A. MACDONEI,:L, Oxford 1886; cf. also SCHEFTELOWITZ, at ZII 1, p. 89. MACDONELL, Brhad-devata, p. XXI. Some anukramanis of later origin need not detain us; see RENOU (-Fillio- zat), I. C. I, p. 306; RgvedanukramanI of Madhavabhatta, ed. C. KUNHAN RAJA, Madras 1932; some editions by VISHVA BANDHU and others, Hoshiarpur 1966 (DANDEKAR, Bibliography, III, p. 14)." Best, Jan *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr On 23 June 2015 at 04:51, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dean Michael Anderson > To: Indology List > Cc: > Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 02:51:00 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Anukramanis - warning - mentions Talageri in passing > I believe it's Talageri's second book that he says is based on the > Anukramanis. Witzel replied: Which ones? This seemed to leave Talageri > nonplussed. > > Can anyone recommend further reading on the Anukramanis? Apart from a few > sources, it's not an area I've been able to find much information about. > > Best, > > Dean > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 08:44:35 2015 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 15 10:44:35 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anukramanis - warning - mentions Talageri in passing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Add to this that a reference to "the Anukramanis" *tout court* is usually a reference to "criticlessly received" information of the anukramanis which is integrated into a Veda-student's recitations: it is an element internal to his tradition, a part of the AAGAMA which he has encountered on his life-path. Historical-critical studies of the Anukramanis in modern Indology by western and Indian scholars -- modern Indology with its roots, inter alia, in the works of Dutch pre-/proto-scientific indological scientists such as Rogerius and van Rheede tot Drakenstein -- took necessarily as their basis different anukramani-traditions as elements of what is past, ATIITA. Both approaches have their value and may clarify each other. Jan On 23 June 2015 at 08:33, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Dear Dean, > Anukramanis contain all the information vaidikas might want to know about > the Vedic > hymns they are learning and transmitting (rsi, devata and chandas of > hymns and stanzas), except information about their ritual application. > Information from the anukramanis is integrated into the recitations of > Rgvedins, in Sayana's commentaries and in the Brhaddevata. > In turn, the sources on which the anukramani-authors based themselves may > have been Brahmanas and now lost Brahmana-like traditions. > Jan Gonda (H.I.L. vol. 1) Vedic Literature Wiesbaden 1975 would be as > usual a good starting point: factual and > conceptual basics with bibliographic references to relevant publications > in the west and in India up to the early seventies. > See pp 34-35 in a section mainly dealing with the Rgveda: > "The anukramanis[80], though not belonging to the vedangas proper, cannot > be > separated from these auxiliary sciences. These succinct versified indexes? > Anuvakanukramani, Arsanukramani[81] and three others[82]?provide us with > lists of rsis, metres, deities, sections of the Rgveda and (the > Chandanukramani) > the numbers of the stanzas of the hymns[83]. Belonging to the last > centuries of > the Vedic period (? 5th-3rd cent. B.C.) they are attributed to Saunaka > except > the more recent and systematic prose sutra-work called Sarvanukramani, a > "General Index" (? 350 B.C.), which, combining the data contained in the > metrical anukramanis, is held to have been composed by Katyayana, the > famous > teacher of the Yajurveda[84]. With the SrautasUtra of the White Yajurveda > by > the same author it has the concise character of its style in common[85]." > > Gonda's main bibliographical references p 35 footnote: > "Die Sarvanukramanl des Katyayana zum Rigveda, herausgegeben von A. A. > MACDONELL, Thesis Leipzig, Oxford 1885; Katyayana's Sarvanukramanl . . . > with > extracts from Sadgurusisya's (12th cent.) commentary, edited by A. A. > MACDONEI,:L, > Oxford 1886; cf. also SCHEFTELOWITZ, at ZII 1, p. 89. MACDONELL, > Brhad-devata, > p. XXI. Some anukramanis of later origin need not detain us; see RENOU > (-Fillio- > zat), I. C. I, p. 306; RgvedanukramanI of Madhavabhatta, ed. C. KUNHAN > RAJA, > Madras 1932; some editions by VISHVA BANDHU and others, Hoshiarpur 1966 > (DANDEKAR, Bibliography, III, p. 14)." > > Best, Jan > > > > *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* > > Directeur d??tudes > > Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite > > *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > 54, rue Saint-Jacques > > CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > > johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr > > https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > > www.ephe.fr > > > On 23 June 2015 at 04:51, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Dean Michael Anderson >> To: Indology List >> Cc: >> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 02:51:00 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Anukramanis - warning - mentions Talageri in passing >> I believe it's Talageri's second book that he says is based on the >> Anukramanis. Witzel replied: Which ones? This seemed to leave Talageri >> nonplussed. >> >> Can anyone recommend further reading on the Anukramanis? Apart from a few >> sources, it's not an area I've been able to find much information about. >> >> Best, >> >> Dean >> >> >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jwborgland at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 10:22:21 2015 From: jwborgland at gmail.com (jens wilhelm borgland) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 15 12:22:21 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anukramanis - warning - mentions Talageri in passing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A more recent work that discusses anukramanis is Patton, Laurie L. 1996. Myth as Argument: The B?haddevat? as Canonical Commentary. Berlin/New York: Walter de Gruyter Best, Jens ---------------- Jens W. Borgland >> On 23 June 2015 at 04:51, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Dean Michael Anderson >>> To: Indology List >>> Cc: >>> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 02:51:00 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Anukramanis - warning - mentions Talageri in passing >>> I believe it's Talageri's second book that he says is based on the >>> Anukramanis. Witzel replied: Which ones? This seemed to leave Talageri >>> nonplussed. >>> >>> Can anyone recommend further reading on the Anukramanis? Apart from a >>> few sources, it's not an area I've been able to find much information about. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Dean >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it Tue Jun 23 20:29:19 2015 From: alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it (Alessandro Battistini) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 15 22:29:19 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_book_help_S=C4=81hityaratn=C4=81kara?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A big warm-hearted thanks to G. Krishnaprasad for his providing me with the scans of this rare ala?k?ra??stra! Alessandro Battistini PhD Candidate Sapienza Universit? di Roma 2015-06-04 14:08 GMT+02:00 Alessandro Battistini < alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it>: > Dear Members, > > I am looking for a scan of this book in 3 vols.: > > Sa?hityaratna?kara of Dharmasu?ri : with Nauka? of Carla Ven?kat?asu?ri > and Mandara of Malla?di Laks?man?a Su?riSanskrit Academy series ; 21, 22, > 24; Hyderabad : Osmania University > > As I am looking for a particular passage (6.14) dealing with the > construction of n?gabandhas, the page concerned will suffice (it should be > in vol.2)... > Anyone willing to share? > > Best, > > Alessandro Battistini > PhD Candidate > Sapienza Universit? di Roma > -- ___________________________________________ INVESTI SUL FUTURO, FAI CRESCERE L?UNIVERSIT?: *DONA IL 5 PER MILLE ALLA SAPIENZA* CODICE FISCALE *80209930587* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Tue Jun 23 22:00:22 2015 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 15 00:00:22 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A request Message-ID: Dear List, could anyone, please, scan and send me a copy of page 165 from Balachandra Rao's "Indian Astronomy: An Introduction" (Universities Press, Hyderabad 2000)? My thanks in advance, Artur Karp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From koenraad.elst at telenet.be Wed Jun 24 01:36:12 2015 From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 15 03:36:12 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Politics of ICHR: Talageri In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <353857142.196128070.1435109772490.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Dear Prof. Hock, ? ? In response to your remark on Talageri, I heard him out and am reformulating his response as follows: ? ? While you may of course criticize Talageri on specific points, his assumption that book 6 is older than book 8 is a rather unfortunate choice. That the Family Books are older than Books 8-9-10 is not his invention, is not far-fetched, but is a widespread scholarly opinion.? He points to a section?of?h is article , available online, in reply to Narahari Achar?s criticism of?his book on ?astronomical? grounds. [Achar supports a traditional chronology, with e.g. the Mahabharata ca. 3100 BC (which on astronomical grounds I consider too high, it must fall after the crossing of Magha/Regulus over the solstice ca. 2300 BC, and on other grounds even later, in the age of chariot warfare, second half of the second millennium BC), and the Vedas even higher.?Talageri puts the MBh war?in the 15th century BC on grounds of scriptural genealogies]: " To begin with, the western academic scholars themselves (see TALAGERI 2008:132-135 for details) have classified the books of the Rigveda into two groups: the family books (2-7) and the non-family books (1, 8-10), and testified, on the basis of their own analyses, that the family books were composed and compiled before the non-family books. Further, they have detached book 5 from the other family books and concluded that it agrees with the non-family books rather than with the other family books. By their analysis, the books of the Rigveda can be classified into three categories: the earlier family books (2-4, 6-7), the later family book (5), and the later non-family books (1, 8-10). This fully agrees with my own classification into Early books (6,3,7), Middle (4,2) and Late books (5,1,8,9,10); except that the Early and Middle books are clubbed together in one category in the western classification, and the internal order within the groups is not analyzed. "It will be seen that every analysis of the data reinforces this classification:?A n analysis of the (ancestor-descendant) relationships between the composers of the hymns establishes the chronological order 6,3,7,4,2,5,8,9,10 (1 alongside 4-10) (TALAGERI 2000:37-50).? An analysis of the references within the hymns to earlier or contemporaneous composers (TALAGERI 2000:53-58) and to the kings and (non-composer) ?? i s mentioned within the hymns (TALAGERI 2000:59-65) confirms the above chronological order.? An analysis of the (adherence to ?purity? of the) family identity of the composers of the individual books (TALAGERI 2000:50-52) confirms the exactitude of the above chronological order, with a steady progression in dilution of the family identity of the composers from book 6 (in which every single hymn and verse is composed by composers belonging to one branch of one family) to book 10 (where every single family has hymns, and a large number of hymns are by composers who are either unaffiliated to any family or whose family is unidentifiable).?An analysis of the system of ascriptions of hymns to composers (TALAGERI 2000:52-53) shows a quantum change from the Early and Middle books (6,3,7,4,2), where hymns are composed by descendant ?? i s in the name of their ancestor ?? i s, to the Late Books (5,1,8,9,10), where hymns are composed by ?? i s in their own names.?An analysis of a large category of personal name types shared in common by the Rigveda with the Avesta and the Mitanni (TALAGERI 2008:20-43) shows a fundamental distinction between the Early and Middle books on the one hand and the Late books on the other, with these name-types being found in 386 hymns in the Late books (and in all other post-Rigvedic texts), but found in the Early and Middle books in only 8 hymns which have been classified by the western academic scholars as Late or interpolated hymns within these books.?An analysis of another category of personal names shared by the Rigveda with the Avesta (TALAGERI 2008:16-20, 47-48) shows a fundamental distinction between the Early books on the one hand and the Middle and Late books on the other, with these names being found in 60 hymns in the Middle books and in 63 hymns in the Late books (and in all other post-Rigvedic texts), but completely missing in the Early books.? An analysis of the geographical names and terms in the Rigveda (TALAGERI 2000:94-136, TALAGERI 2008:81-129) shows a progression from east to west, with the eastern names found distributed throughout the Rigveda and the western names appearing in the books in chronological progression. And again, these names (found in all other post-Rigvedic texts) reinforce the above chronological order: the Indus and rivers to its west are found named in the Middle and Late books, but are missing in the Early books. The names of western animals, places, mountains and lakes are found in the Late non-family books, but are missing in the family books (Early, Middle and Late).? An analysis of other important and historically significant words (TALAGERI 2008: 48-49, 189-200) again reinforces the above chronological order: for example, spoked wheels, or spokes, invented in the late third millennium BCE, and camels and donkeys, domesticated in Central Asia around the same time, are found in the Late books, but missing in the Early and Middle books.?An analysis of the meters used in the composition of the hymns of the Rigveda (TALAGERI 2008:54-80) again reinforces the above chronological order. The dimetric meters used in the Rigveda clearly developed from each other in the following order: g?yatr? (8+8+8), anu ?? ubh (8+8+8+8), pankti (8+8+8+8+8), mah?pankti (8+8+8+8+8+8) and dimeter ?akvar? (8+8+8+8+8+8+8). G?yatr? and anu ?? ubh are found throughout the Rigveda; pankti is found in the Late (family and non-family) books, but missing in the Early and Middle books; mah?pankti and dimeter ?akvar? are found in the Late non-family books, and are missing in the family books (Early, Middle and Late).? An analysis of the sacred numerical formulae in the Rigveda (HOPKINS 1896b) shows that the use of certain numbers, in sacred numerical formulae used as phrases in the hymns, is commonly found in the Late books, but missing in the Early and Middle books.? A detailed and path-breaking analysis (HOPKINS 1896a) shows large categories of words found in the Late books (1,8,9,10, and often 5), but missing in the Early (6,3,7) and Middle books (4,2) except in a few stray hymns classified by the western academic scholars as Late or interpolated hymns within these books. These include such categories as words pertaining to ploughing or to other paraphernalia of agriculture, words associated with certain occupations and technologies (and even with what could be interpreted as the earliest references to the castes), words where the r is replaced by l ( playoga and pulu for prayoga and puru ), a very large number of personal names (not having to do with the name types, common to the Rigveda, Avesta and Mitanni records, analyzed by me), various suffixes and prefixes used in the formation of compound words, certain mythical or socio-religious concepts (S?rya as an ?ditya, Indra identified with the Sun, the discus as a weapon of Indra and the three-edged or three-pointed form of this weapon, etc), various grammatical forms (cases of the resolution of the vowel in the genitive plural of ? stems, some transition forms common in later literature, the Epic weakening of the perfect stem, the adverb adas , etc.), particular categories of words (Soma epithets like madacyuta , madintara / madintama, the names of the most prominent meters used in the Rigveda, etc.), certain stylistic peculiarities (the use of reduplicated compounds like mah?maha , cal?cala , the use of alliteration, the excessive use of comparatives and superlatives, etc.), and many, many more. Also, Hopkins notes many words which are used in one sense in the earlier books, and in a different sense in the later books: words like muni , t?rtha , vai?v?nara , hita , etc., or which are only used as adjectives in the earlier books, but figure as names in the later books (he cites ?avi ?? ha , svar ? ara , durgaha , praj?patin , adhrigu as examples) [note also words like atri , kutsa and au?ija (TALAGERI 2000:79-88), which have a different sense in the earlier books as against the later books, and even the word trita , which is a name in the later books but occurs once with the meaning ?third? in book 6]." ? As to "Vadhryashva", this is no?evidence that "ashva" names can be?early ones.?It is not a name but a hostile nickname for Divodasa's father (or ancestor), apparently Srnjaya: It means "impotent, eunuch", and no sane parent would name his son thus. Talageri also refers to? Hopkins in his article Pragathikani (JAOS 1896), where he?clearly states that the ashva names are late names found only in the late books; and to?t he Vedic Word Concordance of Vishwa Bandhu, which in its Uttarapadanukrama Suchi clearly excludes?vadhri- (on page 3622) from the list of prefixes of?the word asva on grammatical grounds, and places the word Vadhryasva as a separate un-hyphenated word (A Grammatical Word Index to the Four Vedas, Volume 2, 1963, pg.835) on its own. ?Finally, you have argued about a single word. If correct, it would still only cut a very small hole in the massive caseTalageri has?built, with thousands of Vedic passages taken into account. Anyone who wants to prove him wrong, should not be satisfied with saying something he should ?say everything. Rigvedic analysis and exegesis have too often?been based on?single words that have been used to arrive at momentous conclusions. The word anas ("mouthless", wrongly interpreted as "noseless", then imagined to imply an African-type physique among the "Black Aboriginals", crucial evidence for the racial version of the AIT) being a case in point.?Fortunately, this fateful analysis of the Rg-Veda as the story of a racial conquest has been refuted, and the Vedic use of colour terms put in a more realistic perspective, in 1999 in the Bronkhorst & Deshpande volume, by a certain HH Hock. Good job! In this case too, conclusions drawn from the single word "Vadhryashva" might be unwarranted. ? ? Yours sincerely, ? Koenraad Elst? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Wed Jun 24 10:19:43 2015 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 15 10:19:43 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Politics of ICHR: Talageri In-Reply-To: <353857142.196128070.1435109772490.JavaMail.root@telenet.be> Message-ID: Dear Dr. Elst, What you characterize as ?widespread scholarly opinion? concerns the composition of the Rig Veda, in terms of which books were included earlier and which ones later. Book 8 was indeed incorporated later, but that does not mean that all of its hymns are later than those of the Family Books. In his detailed study of ?Vedic metre? and other chronological issues in the Rig Veda, Arnold came to the conclusion that the Ka?va hymns of Book 8 are among the oldest hymns of the Rig Veda. (Other scholars may have disagreed on specific judgments but esssentially agree that hymns of Book 8 cannot automatically be rejected as late.) To reject this conclusion, Talageri would have had to engage in a detailed discussion of Arnold?s (and other scholars?) criteria; but evidently he hasn?t done that (in fact, if memory serves, he doesn?t even refer to Arnold?s monograph and only mentions a much shorter publication of his.) Certainly, poorly defined criteria such as ?prefix? and ?suffix? are no substitute for proper scholarly engagement with earlier literature. But this approach is the foundation for Talageri?s attempt at establishing the relative chronology of the Rig Veda on the basis of naming patterns and, based on that chronology, arguing that Vedic civilization orinated at the Sarasvati and only later expanded to the west. So, showing that his methodology in this regard is problematic is not a trivial matter. Best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock On 23 Jun 2015, at 20:36, > > wrote: Dear Prof. Hock, In response to your remark on Talageri, I heard him out and am reformulating his response as follows: While you may of course criticize Talageri on specific points, his assumption that book 6 is older than book 8 is a rather unfortunate choice. That the Family Books are older than Books 8-9-10 is not his invention, is not far-fetched, but is a widespread scholarly opinion. He points to a section of his article, available online, in reply to Narahari Achar?s criticism of his book on ?astronomical? grounds. [Achar supports a traditional chronology, with e.g. the Mahabharata ca. 3100 BC (which on astronomical grounds I consider too high, it must fall after the crossing of Magha/Regulus over the solstice ca. 2300 BC, and on other grounds even later, in the age of chariot warfare, second half of the second millennium BC), and the Vedas even higher. Talageri puts the MBh war in the 15th century BC on grounds of scriptural genealogies]: "To begin with, the western academic scholars themselves (see TALAGERI 2008:132-135 for details) have classified the books of the Rigveda into two groups: the family books (2-7) and the non-family books (1, 8-10), and testified, on the basis of their own analyses, that the family books were composed and compiled before the non-family books. Further, they have detached book 5 from the other family books and concluded that it agrees with the non-family books rather than with the other family books. By their analysis, the books of the Rigveda can be classified into three categories: the earlier family books (2-4, 6-7), the later family book (5), and the later non-family books (1, 8-10). This fully agrees with my own classification into Early books (6,3,7), Middle (4,2) and Late books (5,1,8,9,10); except that the Early and Middle books are clubbed together in one category in the western classification, and the internal order within the groups is not analyzed. "It will be seen that every analysis of the data reinforces this classification: An analysis of the (ancestor-descendant) relationships between the composers of the hymns establishes the chronological order 6,3,7,4,2,5,8,9,10 (1 alongside 4-10) (TALAGERI 2000:37-50). An analysis of the references within the hymns to earlier or contemporaneous composers (TALAGERI 2000:53-58) and to the kings and (non-composer) ??is mentioned within the hymns (TALAGERI 2000:59-65) confirms the above chronological order. An analysis of the (adherence to ?purity? of the) family identity of the composers of the individual books (TALAGERI 2000:50-52) confirms the exactitude of the above chronological order, with a steady progression in dilution of the family identity of the composers from book 6 (in which every single hymn and verse is composed by composers belonging to one branch of one family) to book 10 (where every single family has hymns, and a large number of hymns are by composers who are either unaffiliated to any family or whose family is unidentifiable). An analysis of the system of ascriptions of hymns to composers (TALAGERI 2000:52-53) shows a quantum change from the Early and Middle books (6,3,7,4,2), where hymns are composed by descendant ??is in the name of their ancestor ??is, to the Late Books (5,1,8,9,10), where hymns are composed by ??is in their own names. An analysis of a large category of personal name types shared in common by the Rigveda with the Avesta and the Mitanni (TALAGERI 2008:20-43) shows a fundamental distinction between the Early and Middle books on the one hand and the Late books on the other, with these name-types being found in 386 hymns in the Late books (and in all other post-Rigvedic texts), but found in the Early and Middle books in only 8 hymns which have been classified by the western academic scholars as Late or interpolated hymns within these books. An analysis of another category of personal names shared by the Rigveda with the Avesta (TALAGERI 2008:16-20, 47-48) shows a fundamental distinction between the Early books on the one hand and the Middle and Late books on the other, with these names being found in 60 hymns in the Middle books and in 63 hymns in the Late books (and in all other post-Rigvedic texts), but completely missing in the Early books. An analysis of the geographical names and terms in the Rigveda (TALAGERI 2000:94-136, TALAGERI 2008:81-129) shows a progression from east to west, with the eastern names found distributed throughout the Rigveda and the western names appearing in the books in chronological progression. And again, these names (found in all other post-Rigvedic texts) reinforce the above chronological order: the Indus and rivers to its west are found named in the Middle and Late books, but are missing in the Early books. The names of western animals, places, mountains and lakes are found in the Late non-family books, but are missing in the family books (Early, Middle and Late). An analysis of other important and historically significant words (TALAGERI 2008: 48-49, 189-200) again reinforces the above chronological order: for example, spoked wheels, or spokes, invented in the late third millennium BCE, and camels and donkeys, domesticated in Central Asia around the same time, are found in the Late books, but missing in the Early and Middle books. An analysis of the meters used in the composition of the hymns of the Rigveda (TALAGERI 2008:54-80) again reinforces the above chronological order. The dimetric meters used in the Rigveda clearly developed from each other in the following order: g?yatr? (8+8+8), anu??ubh (8+8+8+8), pankti (8+8+8+8+8), mah?pankti (8+8+8+8+8+8) and dimeter ?akvar? (8+8+8+8+8+8+8). G?yatr? and anu??ubh are found throughout the Rigveda; pankti is found in the Late (family and non-family) books, but missing in the Early and Middle books; mah?pankti and dimeter ?akvar? are found in the Late non-family books, and are missing in the family books (Early, Middle and Late). An analysis of the sacred numerical formulae in the Rigveda (HOPKINS 1896b) shows that the use of certain numbers, in sacred numerical formulae used as phrases in the hymns, is commonly found in the Late books, but missing in the Early and Middle books. A detailed and path-breaking analysis (HOPKINS 1896a) shows large categories of words found in the Late books (1,8,9,10, and often 5), but missing in the Early (6,3,7) and Middle books (4,2) except in a few stray hymns classified by the western academic scholars as Late or interpolated hymns within these books. These include such categories as words pertaining to ploughing or to other paraphernalia of agriculture, words associated with certain occupations and technologies (and even with what could be interpreted as the earliest references to the castes), words where the r is replaced by l (playoga and pulu for prayoga and puru), a very large number of personal names (not having to do with the name types, common to the Rigveda, Avesta and Mitanni records, analyzed by me), various suffixes and prefixes used in the formation of compound words, certain mythical or socio-religious concepts (S?rya as an ?ditya, Indra identified with the Sun, the discus as a weapon of Indra and the three-edged or three-pointed form of this weapon, etc), various grammatical forms (cases of the resolution of the vowel in the genitive plural of ? stems, some transition forms common in later literature, the Epic weakening of the perfect stem, the adverb adas, etc.), particular categories of words (Soma epithets like madacyuta, madintara/madintama, the names of the most prominent meters used in the Rigveda, etc.), certain stylistic peculiarities (the use of reduplicated compounds like mah?maha, cal?cala, the use of alliteration, the excessive use of comparatives and superlatives, etc.), and many, many more. Also, Hopkins notes many words which are used in one sense in the earlier books, and in a different sense in the later books: words like muni, t?rtha, vai?v?nara, hita, etc., or which are only used as adjectives in the earlier books, but figure as names in the later books (he cites ?avi??ha, svar?ara, durgaha, praj?patin, adhrigu as examples) [note also words like atri, kutsa and au?ija (TALAGERI 2000:79-88), which have a different sense in the earlier books as against the later books, and even the word trita, which is a name in the later books but occurs once with the meaning ?third? in book 6]." As to "Vadhryashva", this is no evidence that "ashva" names can be early ones. It is not a name but a hostile nickname for Divodasa's father (or ancestor), apparently Srnjaya: It means "impotent, eunuch", and no sane parent would name his son thus. Talageri also refers to Hopkins in his article Pragathikani (JAOS 1896), where he clearly states that the ashva names are late names found only in the late books; and to the Vedic Word Concordance of Vishwa Bandhu, which in its Uttarapadanukrama Suchi clearly excludes vadhri- (on page 3622) from the list of prefixes of the word asva on grammatical grounds, and places the word Vadhryasva as a separate un-hyphenated word (A Grammatical Word Index to the Four Vedas, Volume 2, 1963, pg.835) on its own. Finally, you have argued about a single word. If correct, it would still only cut a very small hole in the massive caseTalageri has built, with thousands of Vedic passages taken into account. Anyone who wants to prove him wrong, should not be satisfied with saying something he should say everything. Rigvedic analysis and exegesis have too often been based on single words that have been used to arrive at momentous conclusions. The word anas ("mouthless", wrongly interpreted as "noseless", then imagined to imply an African-type physique among the "Black Aboriginals", crucial evidence for the racial version of the AIT) being a case in point. Fortunately, this fateful analysis of the Rg-Veda as the story of a racial conquest has been refuted, and the Vedic use of colour terms put in a more realistic perspective, in 1999 in the Bronkhorst & Deshpande volume, by a certain HH Hock. Good job! In this case too, conclusions drawn from the single word "Vadhryashva" might be unwarranted. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Wed Jun 24 10:23:27 2015 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 15 12:23:27 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My thanks go to Agathe Keller --- ! Now, the page 165 of Balachandra Rao's book carries the title: "Saros and Metonic cycle". I hoped prof. Rao would provide some information on the use of *saros* & Metonic cycle in the Indian astronomical/astrological practice. A disappointment: there is nothing there apart from some general info, such as could have been culled from any simple handbook on the history of astronomy. Was the concept of *saros* known to ancient Indian astronomers? Best, Artur Karp 2015-06-24 0:00 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > Dear List, > > could anyone, please, scan and send me a copy of page 165 from Balachandra > Rao's "Indian Astronomy: An Introduction" (Universities Press, Hyderabad > 2000)? > > My thanks in advance, > > Artur Karp > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tiziana.lorenzetti at libero.it Wed Jun 24 16:41:46 2015 From: tiziana.lorenzetti at libero.it (tiziana.lorenzetti at libero.it) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 15 18:41:46 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication announcement Message-ID: <1434549810.994371435164106949.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> Dear List Members, I am happy to share with you information on my latest book ?Understanding the Hindu Temple, History, Symbols and Forms?, which came out this month. It is a hardcover book with 167 pages and colour illustrations. The price is of 35 Euros The book is the second volume of the publication series, 'Studies in Asian Art and Culture' (SAAC) which Prof. Julia Hegewald (University of Bonn) has established with EB-Publishers in Berlin (http://www.ebverlag.de,) Below are a few information on the Volume. The Hindu temple encompasses multiple symbolic meanings with various levels of interpretation. This book aims to explain this complex web of symbolism which have inspired and justified the building of the Hindu temple, from the beginnings through the development to the most complex forms. A comprehensive treatment of the diverse aspects of the sacred Hindu architecture is provided, in term of the religious and philosophical principles, the textual heritage, the mythological references and the various iconographic traditions embodied in the Hindu sanctuaries. Distinct chapters are dedicated to the following topics: 1) The multi-level relationship between the temple, the cosmos and the body of the primordial being. 2) The antecedents of the Indian sacred monuments ? timber and rock-cut structures. 3) The basic structures of the Hindu temple and the main temple typologies. 4) Temple sculptural elements, both anthropomorphic and symbolic. 5) The historical, political, economic, and social role played by the temple in Indian society from its medieval origins to modern time. This multi-faceted subject-matter is also treated in the perspective of a historical comparison of differences and similarities with some fundamental examples from Western traditions and practices of constructing the sacred. Best Wishes, Tiziana Lorenzetti -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SAAC_2_Flyer_Lorenzetti_gesamt.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 759952 bytes Desc: not available URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Wed Jun 24 18:52:52 2015 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 15 20:52:52 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, dear Nancy and David. Also I looked for any definite evidence on the concept of *saros* being used by the ancient Indian astronomers. Without success. But, having no formal training in the field of Indian archaeoastronomy, I might have missed the relevant references re the use of *saros*. Am preparing a short paper on the traces of the knowledge of several astronomical cycles --- as reflected in Indian mythological narratives - and Prof. Plofker's opinion on the matter would be of a definite value. Best, Artur 2015-06-24 19:05 GMT+02:00 David and Nancy Reigle : > Dear Artur Karp, > > As you saw, I forwarded your inquiry to Kim Plofker. She was a student of > David Pingree. Besides checking a couple of his writings, as I mentioned, I > also checked the article by Sukumar Ranjan Das, "Lunar and Solar Eclipses > in Hindu Astronomy" (Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal, n.s. vol. > 24, 1928, pp. 437-454). He mentions the saros cycle at the end (p. 453), > implying that the ancient Indian astronomers knew it. However, this was not > obvious from their methods of calculating eclipses that he describes. Just > thought I would mention this, in case you have not already checked this > article. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 4:23 AM, Artur Karp wrote: > >> My thanks go to Agathe Keller --- ! >> >> Now, the page 165 of Balachandra Rao's book carries the title: "Saros and >> Metonic cycle". I hoped prof. Rao would provide some information on the use >> of *saros* & Metonic cycle in the Indian astronomical/astrological >> practice. A disappointment: there is nothing there apart from some general >> info, such as could have been culled from any simple handbook on the >> history of astronomy. >> >> Was the concept of *saros* known to ancient Indian astronomers? >> >> Best, >> >> Artur Karp >> >> >> 2015-06-24 0:00 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : >> >>> Dear List, >>> >>> could anyone, please, scan and send me a copy of page 165 from >>> Balachandra Rao's "Indian Astronomy: An Introduction" (Universities >>> Press, Hyderabad 2000)? >>> >>> My thanks in advance, >>> >>> Artur Karp >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 18:58:55 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 15 20:58:55 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Government to send 250 Sanskrit scholars to participate in World Sanskrit Conference in Thailand Message-ID: See this link . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 23:15:33 2015 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 15 17:15:33 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Artur, I was not sure if you were seeking only information from the Indian jyoti?a siddh?nta texts, i.e., astronomical texts proper. You say here that you are preparing a short paper on the traces of the knowledge of several astronomical cycles --- as reflected in Indian mythological narratives. If we include mythological narratives as possible sources of knowledge of astronomical cycles, there are more sources to draw upon. One such source is the writings of R. Shamasastry (died 1944), which I mention in case you have not already consulted them. Most relevant to the saros cycle are Shamasastry's 1938 book, *Drapsa: The Vedic Cycle of Eclipses, a Key to unlock the treasures of the Vedas*, and his 1940 book, *Eclipse-Cult in the Vedas, Bible, and Koran, a Supplement to the "Drapsa"*. David Pingree in his 1973 article, "The Mesopotamian Origin of Early Indian Mathematical Astronomy," discusses the five-year cycle taught in the *Jyoti?a-ved??ga*, and notes that there is no obvious parallel to this in the 18-year saros eclipse cycle (p. 8): "If we look in cuneiform texts for a five-year intercalation-cycle, we are frustrated." Shamasastry attempts to show that the Vedic texts, through their symbolism, do refer to a 19-year eclipse cycle that is parallel to the saros cycle. He begins his Preface to *Drapsa* as follows: "What is ascribed to the Vedic poets in the following pages is not a knowledge of mathematical astronomy which they never had, nor prediction of eclipses with mathematical accuracy which they never did. All that is claimed for them is a knowledge of the famous eclipse-cycle which they seem to have been using in common with the Chaldeans, Israelites, and other contemporary nations." I do not have the knowledge to evaluate Shamasastry's statements, and I list these books only as possible sources to check. What attracted me to his writings was his 1936 translation of the *Vedangajyautisha*. The *Jyoti?a-ved??ga* is so brief that many of its verses are enigmatic. Shamasastry said that the same system was taught in the Jaina astronomical texts, *S?ryapraj?apti*, *Jyoti?kara??a* (or *Jyoti?akara??aka*), and *K?lalokaprak??a*. Using these Jaina texts he arrived at what he thought were satisfactory interpretations of the enigmatic verses of the *Jyoti?a-ved??ga*. Here in *Drapsa*, too, he used one of these, as he says in his Preface (p. vii): "In interpreting the seven Vedic Metres as Gnoman's shadow-measures of seven ordinary or intercalary months and of the solstices, my chief authority is the Jaina astronomical work entitled the 'K?lalokaprak??a' on the Gnoman's shadow-measure of months and solstices, with which the Vedic metrical shadow-measures are identical." I would be happy to provide scans of any of these writings that I refer to. These are normally ones that I have already gathered, either in the original or as photocopies that I made of them, and include the writings of R. Shamasastry, David Pingree, the *Jyoti?a-ved??ga*, and the *S?ryapraj?apti* with Malayagiri's commentary. The exceptions here are the *K?lalokaprak??a* and the *Jyoti?akara??aka* with Malayagiri's commentary (I do have the Prakrit *Jyoti?akara??aka*, but I need the edition with the Sanskrit commentary, apparently 1928). Despite decades of searching, and even contacting David Pingree about them while he was still alive, I have not yet been able to obtain these two texts. If anyone can provide me with photocopies or scans of them, I would be very grateful. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Artur Karp wrote: > Thank you, dear Nancy and David. > > Also I looked for any definite evidence on the concept of *saros* being > used by the ancient Indian astronomers. Without success. But, having no > formal training in the field of Indian archaeoastronomy, I might have > missed the relevant references re the use of *saros*. > > Am preparing a short paper on the traces of the knowledge of several > astronomical cycles --- as reflected in Indian mythological narratives - > and Prof. Plofker's opinion on the matter would be of a definite value. > > Best, > > Artur > > 2015-06-24 19:05 GMT+02:00 David and Nancy Reigle : > >> Dear Artur Karp, >> >> As you saw, I forwarded your inquiry to Kim Plofker. She was a student of >> David Pingree. Besides checking a couple of his writings, as I mentioned, I >> also checked the article by Sukumar Ranjan Das, "Lunar and Solar Eclipses >> in Hindu Astronomy" (Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal, n.s. vol. >> 24, 1928, pp. 437-454). He mentions the saros cycle at the end (p. 453), >> implying that the ancient Indian astronomers knew it. However, this was not >> obvious from their methods of calculating eclipses that he describes. Just >> thought I would mention this, in case you have not already checked this >> article. >> >> Best regards, >> >> David Reigle >> >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 4:23 AM, Artur Karp wrote: >> >>> My thanks go to Agathe Keller --- ! >>> >>> Now, the page 165 of Balachandra Rao's book carries the title: "Saros >>> and Metonic cycle". I hoped prof. Rao would provide some information on the >>> use of *saros* & Metonic cycle in the Indian astronomical/astrological >>> practice. A disappointment: there is nothing there apart from some general >>> info, such as could have been culled from any simple handbook on the >>> history of astronomy. >>> >>> Was the concept of *saros* known to ancient Indian astronomers? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Artur Karp >>> >>> >>> 2015-06-24 0:00 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : >>> >>>> Dear List, >>>> >>>> could anyone, please, scan and send me a copy of page 165 from >>>> Balachandra Rao's "Indian Astronomy: An Introduction" (Universities >>>> Press, Hyderabad 2000)? >>>> >>>> My thanks in advance, >>>> >>>> Artur Karp >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Thu Jun 25 02:27:19 2015 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 15 02:27:19 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anukramanis - warning - mentions Talageri in passing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <513686260.789836.1435199239072.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for the replies on the Anukramanis. It's been years since I read Gonda and had forgotten that it discussed them, and I hadn't heard of Patton's article. Best, Dean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From veerankp at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 08:04:21 2015 From: veerankp at gmail.com (Veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 15 13:34:21 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Government to send 250 Sanskrit scholars to participate in World Sanskrit Conference in Thailand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It seems ET is misled. It is only 35 people mostly for pandit parishad and kavigoshthi as usual in other WSCs. On Jun 25, 2015 12:29 AM, "Dominik Wujastyk" wrote: > See this link > > . > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Thu Jun 25 08:24:16 2015 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 15 10:24:16 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Searching_for_a_little-known_Ny=C4=81ya?= Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am searching for textual evidence of a little-known Ny?ya. In an article by Soutik Biswas ?Why India's sanitation crisis kills women? (BBC News India, 30 May 2014), it was claimed that ?Several studies have shown that women without toilets at home are vulnerable to sexual violence when travelling to and from public facilities or open fields. [...]?. One mother told researchers, ?We have had *one-on-one fights with thugs in order to save our daughters from getting raped*. It then becomes a fight that either you [the thug] *kill me to get to my daughter*, or you back off.? This courageous behaviour of mothers fighting for her girls at the risk of their own lives reminds one of the *?a??-sarpa-ny?ya* (?the bunny and the snake?), known to some by hearsay only, but not (yet) traceable. The generalization here lies certainly in the fact that a (physically weaker) female (*?a??*) effectively fights a (physically stronger) male (*sarpa*). The latter would be the aggressor(s), the victim(s) the (female) bunny and/or her young. The rare feminine formation *?a??* causes no real trouble, as occurrences of the word are anyway testified in the *Mok?op?ya* (VI.34.103) and in Ratn?kara??nti?s *Vidagdhavism?pana* (175) [written communication by Roland Steiner]. In connection of the very idea behind this ny?ya, I should also like to add that Gandhi could indeed have been aware of a similar popular maxim, as he refers explicitly to ?the violence of *the mouse against the cat*?, writing that ?A girl who attacks her assailant with her nails, if she has grown them, or with her teeth, *if she has them* [? W.S.], is almost non-violent (...). Her violence is the violence of the mouse against the cat.? (Harijan, 0 8-09-1940). On the other hand, Gandhi had ?(...) always held that it is physically impossible to violate a woman against her will. (?) If she cannot meet the assailant?s physical might, her purity will give her the strength to die before he succeeds in violating her. (?) I know that women are capable of throwing away their lives for a much lesser purpose.? (Harijan, 25-08-1940). The statement in the last paragraph, only cited for its somewhat conflicting character with the first one, would, if further pursued, however lead into an entirely different matter, better not to be touched. I would be fully satisfied if someone among this learned community could contribute to the mysterious* ?a??sarpany?ya*, on- or off-list. Thanking you, WS ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 09:02:11 2015 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 15 11:02:11 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Searching_for_a_little-known_Ny=C4=81ya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Walter, The nyaaya to which you point may have been based on actual observation: http://uk.businessinsider.com/rabbit-fights-snake-and-wins-video-2015-6?r=US Jan *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr On 25 June 2015 at 10:24, Walter Slaje wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > > I am searching for textual evidence of a little-known Ny?ya. > > > In an article by Soutik Biswas ?Why India's sanitation crisis kills > women? (BBC News India, 30 May 2014), it was claimed that ?Several studies > have shown that women without toilets at home are vulnerable to sexual > violence when travelling to and from public facilities or open fields. > [...]?. One mother told researchers, ?We have had *one-on-one fights with > thugs in order to save our daughters from getting raped*. It then becomes > a fight that either you [the thug] *kill me to get to my daughter*, or > you back off.? > > > This courageous behaviour of mothers fighting for her girls at the risk of > their own lives reminds one of the *?a??-sarpa-ny?ya* (?the bunny and the > snake?), known to some by hearsay only, but not (yet) traceable. The > generalization here lies certainly in the fact that a (physically weaker) > female (*?a??*) effectively fights a (physically stronger) male (*sarpa*). > The latter would be the aggressor(s), the victim(s) the (female) bunny > and/or her young. > > > The rare feminine formation *?a??* causes no real trouble, as occurrences > of the word are anyway testified in the *Mok?op?ya* (VI.34.103) and in > Ratn?kara??nti?s *Vidagdhavism?pana* (175) [written communication by > Roland Steiner]. > > > In connection of the very idea behind this ny?ya, I should also like to > add that Gandhi could indeed have been aware of a similar popular maxim, as > he refers explicitly to ?the violence of *the mouse against the cat*?, > writing that > > > ?A girl who attacks her assailant with her nails, if she has grown them, > or with her teeth, *if she has them* [? W.S.], is almost non-violent > (...). Her violence is the violence of the mouse against the cat.? (Harijan, > 08-09-1940). > > > On the other hand, Gandhi had > > ?(...) always held that it is physically impossible to violate a woman > against her will. (?) If she cannot meet the assailant?s physical might, > her purity will give her the strength to die before he succeeds in > violating her. (?) I know that women are capable of throwing away their > lives for a much lesser purpose.? (Harijan, 25-08-1940). > > > The statement in the last paragraph, only cited for its somewhat > conflicting character with the first one, would, if further pursued, > however lead into an entirely different matter, better not to be touched. > > > I would be fully satisfied if someone among this learned community could > contribute to the mysterious* ?a??sarpany?ya*, on- or off-list. > > > > Thanking you, > > WS > > > ----------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar > Deutschland > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Thu Jun 25 11:40:22 2015 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 15 06:40:22 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Searching_for_a_little-known_Ny=C4=81ya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Walter and all: I do not know abut this maxim, but this real life video of a mother rabbit doing just what the maxim say could be instructive. It was probably filmed somewhere in south India, I am not sure of the language of the people taping it. Patrick http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/watch-the-epic-fight-here-rabbit-battling-a-snake-to-protect-her-bunnies_1619126.html On Jun 25, 2015, at 3:24 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > > > I am searching for textual evidence of a little-known Ny?ya. > > > > In an article by Soutik Biswas ?Why India's sanitation crisis kills women? (BBC News India, 30 May 2014), it was claimed that ?Several studies have shown that women without toilets at home are vulnerable to sexual violence when travelling to and from public facilities or open fields. [...]?. One mother told researchers, ?We have had one-on-one fights with thugs in order to save our daughters from getting raped. It then becomes a fight that either you [the thug] kill me to get to my daughter, or you back off.? > > > > This courageous behaviour of mothers fighting for her girls at the risk of their own lives reminds one of the ?a??-sarpa-ny?ya (?the bunny and the snake?), known to some by hearsay only, but not (yet) traceable. The generalization here lies certainly in the fact that a (physically weaker) female (?a??) effectively fights a (physically stronger) male (sarpa). The latter would be the aggressor(s), the victim(s) the (female) bunny and/or her young. > > > > The rare feminine formation ?a?? causes no real trouble, as occurrences of the word are anyway testified in the Mok?op?ya (VI.34.103) and in Ratn?kara??nti?s Vidagdhavism?pana (175) [written communication by Roland Steiner]. > > > > In connection of the very idea behind this ny?ya, I should also like to add that Gandhi could indeed have been aware of a similar popular maxim, as he refers explicitly to ?the violence of the mouse against the cat?, writing that > > > > ?A girl who attacks her assailant with her nails, if she has grown them, or with her teeth, if she has them [? W.S.], is almost non-violent (...). Her violence is the violence of the mouse against the cat.? (Harijan, 08-09-1940). > > > > On the other hand, Gandhi had > > ?(...) always held that it is physically impossible to violate a woman against her will. (?) If she cannot meet the assailant?s physical might, her purity will give her the strength to die before he succeeds in violating her. (?) I know that women are capable of throwing away their lives for a much lesser purpose.? (Harijan, 25-08-1940). > > > > The statement in the last paragraph, only cited for its somewhat conflicting character with the first one, would, if further pursued, however lead into an entirely different matter, better not to be touched. > > > > I would be fully satisfied if someone among this learned community could contribute to the mysterious ?a??sarpany?ya, on- or off-list. > > > Thanking you, > > WS > > > ----------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar > Deutschland > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 18:49:37 2015 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 15 12:49:37 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Jyotishkarandaka with Sanskrit Commentary available at DLI Message-ID: Many thanks to Kumar Shankara for sending me the following information about the availability of the *Jyoti?kara??aka* with the commentary of Malayagiri: The above book is available at Digital Library of India. Jyotiskarndkam Prakirnam. , 99999990321959. Vallabhachariya. 1928. sanskrit. Devotional. 268 pgs. Although I tried searching for it at DLI under several other spelling combinations, I would never have thought of trying this spelling. My best to him, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:15 PM, David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > Dear Artur, > > I was not sure if you were seeking only information from the Indian jyoti?a > siddh?nta texts, i.e., astronomical texts proper. You say here that you > are preparing a short paper on the traces of the knowledge of several > astronomical cycles --- as reflected in Indian mythological narratives. If > we include mythological narratives as possible sources of knowledge of > astronomical cycles, there are more sources to draw upon. One such source > is the writings of R. Shamasastry (died 1944), which I mention in case you > have not already consulted them. > > Most relevant to the saros cycle are Shamasastry's 1938 book, *Drapsa: > The Vedic Cycle of Eclipses, a Key to unlock the treasures of the Vedas*, > and his 1940 book, *Eclipse-Cult in the Vedas, Bible, and Koran, a > Supplement to the "Drapsa"*. David Pingree in his 1973 article, "The > Mesopotamian Origin of Early Indian Mathematical Astronomy," discusses the > five-year cycle taught in the *Jyoti?a-ved??ga*, and notes that there is > no obvious parallel to this in the 18-year saros eclipse cycle (p. 8): "If > we look in cuneiform texts for a five-year intercalation-cycle, we are > frustrated." Shamasastry attempts to show that the Vedic texts, through > their symbolism, do refer to a 19-year eclipse cycle that is parallel to > the saros cycle. He begins his Preface to *Drapsa* as follows: > > "What is ascribed to the Vedic poets in the following pages is not a > knowledge of mathematical astronomy which they never had, nor prediction of > eclipses with mathematical accuracy which they never did. All that is > claimed for them is a knowledge of the famous eclipse-cycle which they seem > to have been using in common with the Chaldeans, Israelites, and other > contemporary nations." > > I do not have the knowledge to evaluate Shamasastry's statements, and I > list these books only as possible sources to check. What attracted me to > his writings was his 1936 translation of the *Vedangajyautisha*. The > *Jyoti?a-ved??ga* is so brief that many of its verses are enigmatic. > Shamasastry said that the same system was taught in the Jaina astronomical > texts, *S?ryapraj?apti*, *Jyoti?kara??a* (or *Jyoti?akara??aka*), and > *K?lalokaprak??a*. Using these Jaina texts he arrived at what he thought > were satisfactory interpretations of the enigmatic verses of the > *Jyoti?a-ved??ga*. Here in *Drapsa*, too, he used one of these, as he > says in his Preface (p. vii): > > "In interpreting the seven Vedic Metres as Gnoman's shadow-measures of > seven ordinary or intercalary months and of the solstices, my chief > authority is the Jaina astronomical work entitled the 'K?lalokaprak??a' > on the Gnoman's shadow-measure of months and solstices, with which the > Vedic metrical shadow-measures are identical." > > I would be happy to provide scans of any of these writings that I refer > to. These are normally ones that I have already gathered, either in the > original or as photocopies that I made of them, and include the writings of > R. Shamasastry, David Pingree, the *Jyoti?a-ved??ga*, and the > *S?ryapraj?apti* with Malayagiri's commentary. The exceptions here are > the *K?lalokaprak??a* and the *Jyoti?akara??aka* with Malayagiri's > commentary (I do have the Prakrit *Jyoti?akara??aka*, but I need the > edition with the Sanskrit commentary, apparently 1928). Despite decades of > searching, and even contacting David Pingree about them while he was still > alive, I have not yet been able to obtain these two texts. If anyone can > provide me with photocopies or scans of them, I would be very grateful. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Thu Jun 25 22:49:24 2015 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 15 00:49:24 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Searching_for_a_little-known_Ny=C4=81ya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This video is so convincing that the idea of a ?a??sarpany?ya develops all by itself, even without ever having heard of it before. Great! Jan's likely assumption that this textually unattested ny?ya might "have been based on actual observation" reminds one all the more painfully of our insufficient knowledge of realia and the material culture of pre-modern India. Speaking of ny?yas - and we may as well include the kavi-samayas, the ideological and material roots of which still remain unexplored by and large -, I should like to draw your attention to a promising rumour according to which the Indological Section of the DMG (German Oriental Society) consider a prize competition for cracking the history of development of some of the toughest ny?ya- and kavisamaya-nuts. This might possibly materialize in the broader context of the 33rd Deutscher Orientalistentag to be held from the 18th to the 22nd of September 2017 in Jena, Germany (the domain of, among others, Otto von B?htlingk and the Schlegel brothers). I am not well informed enough, but would advise an occasional glance at the homepage of the Section (http://www.dmg-web.de/indologie/index.html) in the run-up to the Orientalistentag in 2017. So, plenty of time for warming-up. Many thanks, and kind regards, WS 2015-06-25 13:40 GMT+02:00 Patrick Olivelle : > Walter and all: > > I do not know abut this maxim, but this real life video of a mother rabbit > doing just what the maxim say could be instructive. It was probably filmed > somewhere in south India, I am not sure of the language of the people > taping it. > > Patrick > > > http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/watch-the-epic-fight-here-rabbit-battling-a-snake-to-protect-her-bunnies_1619126.html > > > > On Jun 25, 2015, at 3:24 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > > I am searching for textual evidence of a little-known Ny?ya. > > > In an article by Soutik Biswas ?Why India's sanitation crisis kills > women? (BBC News India, 30 May 2014), it was claimed that ?Several studies > have shown that women without toilets at home are vulnerable to sexual > violence when travelling to and from public facilities or open fields. > [...]?. One mother told researchers, ?We have had *one-on-one fights with > thugs in order to save our daughters from getting raped*. It then becomes > a fight that either you [the thug] *kill me to get to my daughter*, or > you back off.? > > > This courageous behaviour of mothers fighting for her girls at the risk of > their own lives reminds one of the *?a??-sarpa-ny?ya* (?the bunny and the > snake?), known to some by hearsay only, but not (yet) traceable. The > generalization here lies certainly in the fact that a (physically weaker) > female (*?a??*) effectively fights a (physically stronger) male (*sarpa*). > The latter would be the aggressor(s), the victim(s) the (female) bunny > and/or her young. > > > The rare feminine formation *?a??* causes no real trouble, as occurrences > of the word are anyway testified in the *Mok?op?ya* (VI.34.103) and in > Ratn?kara??nti?s *Vidagdhavism?pana* (175) [written communication by > Roland Steiner]. > > > In connection of the very idea behind this ny?ya, I should also like to > add that Gandhi could indeed have been aware of a similar popular maxim, as > he refers explicitly to ?the violence of *the mouse against the cat*?, > writing that > > > ?A girl who attacks her assailant with her nails, if she has grown them, > or with her teeth, *if she has them* [? W.S.], is almost non-violent > (...). Her violence is the violence of the mouse against the cat.? (Harijan, > 08-09-1940). > > > On the other hand, Gandhi had > > ?(...) always held that it is physically impossible to violate a woman > against her will. (?) If she cannot meet the assailant?s physical might, > her purity will give her the strength to die before he succeeds in > violating her. (?) I know that women are capable of throwing away their > lives for a much lesser purpose.? (Harijan, 25-08-1940). > > > The statement in the last paragraph, only cited for its somewhat > conflicting character with the first one, would, if further pursued, > however lead into an entirely different matter, better not to be touched. > > > I would be fully satisfied if someone among this learned community could > contribute to the mysterious* ?a??sarpany?ya*, on- or off-list. > > > Thanking you, > > WS > > ----------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar > Deutschland > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Fri Jun 26 05:40:51 2015 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 15 06:40:51 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Searching_for_a_little-known_Ny=C4=81ya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One odd thing: the animal in the video does indeed appear to be a rabbit, as distinct from a hare. I thought that rabbits were not native to India, and that the word ?a?a referred to a hare (the words ?hare? and ??a?a' probably being cognates). Of course, they may well behave in the same way when their young are threatened, but they are different species. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK > On 25 Jun 2015, at 23:49, Walter Slaje wrote: > > This video is so convincing that the idea of a ?a??sarpany?ya develops all by itself, even without ever having heard of it before. Great! > > Jan's likely assumption that this textually unattested ny?ya might "have been based on actual observation" reminds one all the more painfully of our insufficient knowledge of realia and the material culture of pre-modern India. > > Speaking of ny?yas - and we may as well include the kavi-samayas, the ideological and material roots of which still remain unexplored by and large -, I should like to draw your attention to a promising rumour according to which the Indological Section of the DMG (German Oriental Society) consider a prize competition for cracking the history of development of some of the toughest ny?ya- and kavisamaya-nuts. This might possibly materialize in the broader context of the 33rd Deutscher Orientalistentag to be held from the 18th to the 22nd of September 2017 in Jena, Germany (the domain of, among others, Otto von B?htlingk and the Schlegel brothers). > I am not well informed enough, but would advise an occasional glance at the homepage of the Section (http://www.dmg-web.de/indologie/index.html ) in the run-up to the Orientalistentag in 2017. So, plenty of time for warming-up. > > Many thanks, and kind regards, > WS > > > 2015-06-25 13:40 GMT+02:00 Patrick Olivelle >: > Walter and all: > > I do not know abut this maxim, but this real life video of a mother rabbit doing just what the maxim say could be instructive. It was probably filmed somewhere in south India, I am not sure of the language of the people taping it. > > Patrick > > http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/watch-the-epic-fight-here-rabbit-battling-a-snake-to-protect-her-bunnies_1619126.html > > > > On Jun 25, 2015, at 3:24 AM, Walter Slaje > wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> >> >> I am searching for textual evidence of a little-known Ny?ya. >> >> >> >> In an article by Soutik Biswas ?Why India's sanitation crisis kills women? (BBC News India, 30 May 2014), it was claimed that ?Several studies have shown that women without toilets at home are vulnerable to sexual violence when travelling to and from public facilities or open fields. [...]?. One mother told researchers, ?We have had one-on-one fights with thugs in order to save our daughters from getting raped. It then becomes a fight that either you [the thug] kill me to get to my daughter, or you back off.? >> >> >> >> This courageous behaviour of mothers fighting for her girls at the risk of their own lives reminds one of the ?a??-sarpa-ny?ya (?the bunny and the snake?), known to some by hearsay only, but not (yet) traceable. The generalization here lies certainly in the fact that a (physically weaker) female (?a??) effectively fights a (physically stronger) male (sarpa). The latter would be the aggressor(s), the victim(s) the (female) bunny and/or her young. >> >> >> >> The rare feminine formation ?a?? causes no real trouble, as occurrences of the word are anyway testified in the Mok?op?ya (VI.34.103) and in Ratn?kara??nti?s Vidagdhavism?pana (175) [written communication by Roland Steiner]. >> >> >> >> In connection of the very idea behind this ny?ya, I should also like to add that Gandhi could indeed have been aware of a similar popular maxim, as he refers explicitly to ?the violence of the mouse against the cat?, writing that >> >> >> >> ?A girl who attacks her assailant with her nails, if she has grown them, or with her teeth, if she has them [? W.S.], is almost non-violent (...). Her violence is the violence of the mouse against the cat.? (Harijan, 08-09-1940). >> >> >> >> On the other hand, Gandhi had >> >> ?(...) always held that it is physically impossible to violate a woman against her will. (?) If she cannot meet the assailant?s physical might, her purity will give her the strength to die before he succeeds in violating her. (?) I know that women are capable of throwing away their lives for a much lesser purpose.? (Harijan, 25-08-1940). >> >> >> >> The statement in the last paragraph, only cited for its somewhat conflicting character with the first one, would, if further pursued, however lead into an entirely different matter, better not to be touched. >> >> >> >> I would be fully satisfied if someone among this learned community could contribute to the mysterious ?a??sarpany?ya, on- or off-list. >> >> >> Thanking you, >> >> WS >> >> >> ----------------------------- >> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje >> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 >> D-99425 Weimar >> Deutschland >> >> Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor >> studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum >> non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, >> sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus >> humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. >> Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern at verizon.net Fri Jun 26 06:20:40 2015 From: emstern at verizon.net (Elliot Stern) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 15 02:20:40 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Searching_for_a_little-known_Ny=C4=81ya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9C951BF9-9141-4C89-A9D3-E7E369E0EF38@verizon.net> The National Geographic Society identifies the rabbit as a female cottontail rabbit and the snake as a black rat snake {http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150624-rabbits-snakes-animals-science-nation-video/ ). It places the video source somewhere in the eastern United States. While I have not set foot in India since 1982, I believe the architectural features of the house and the lush green grass in the video are more likely to be American than Indian. The South Indian language is possibly Telugu. amm? is mother and nann? is father. To my ear, the child?s English language sounds more American than Indian. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America telephone: 215-747-6204 mobile: 267-240-8418 emstern at verizon.net > On 26 Jun 2015, at 01:40, Valerie Roebuck wrote: > > One odd thing: the animal in the video does indeed appear to be a rabbit, as distinct from a hare. I thought that rabbits were not native to India, and that the word ?a?a referred to a hare (the words ?hare? and ??a?a' probably being cognates). Of course, they may well behave in the same way when their young are threatened, but they are different species. > > Valerie J Roebuck > Manchester, UK > >> On 25 Jun 2015, at 23:49, Walter Slaje > wrote: >> >> This video is so convincing that the idea of a ?a??sarpany?ya develops all by itself, even without ever having heard of it before. Great! >> >> Jan's likely assumption that this textually unattested ny?ya might "have been based on actual observation" reminds one all the more painfully of our insufficient knowledge of realia and the material culture of pre-modern India. >> >> Speaking of ny?yas - and we may as well include the kavi-samayas, the ideological and material roots of which still remain unexplored by and large -, I should like to draw your attention to a promising rumour according to which the Indological Section of the DMG (German Oriental Society) consider a prize competition for cracking the history of development of some of the toughest ny?ya- and kavisamaya-nuts. This might possibly materialize in the broader context of the 33rd Deutscher Orientalistentag to be held from the 18th to the 22nd of September 2017 in Jena, Germany (the domain of, among others, Otto von B?htlingk and the Schlegel brothers). >> I am not well informed enough, but would advise an occasional glance at the homepage of the Section (http://www.dmg-web.de/indologie/index.html ) in the run-up to the Orientalistentag in 2017. So, plenty of time for warming-up. >> >> Many thanks, and kind regards, >> WS >> >> >> 2015-06-25 13:40 GMT+02:00 Patrick Olivelle >: >> Walter and all: >> >> I do not know abut this maxim, but this real life video of a mother rabbit doing just what the maxim say could be instructive. It was probably filmed somewhere in south India, I am not sure of the language of the people taping it. >> >> Patrick >> >> http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/watch-the-epic-fight-here-rabbit-battling-a-snake-to-protect-her-bunnies_1619126.html >> >> The South Indian language is possibly Telugu. >> >> On Jun 25, 2015, at 3:24 AM, Walter Slaje > wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am searching for textual evidence of a little-known Ny?ya. >>> >>> >>> >>> In an article by Soutik Biswas ?Why India's sanitation crisis kills women? (BBC News India, 30 May 2014), it was claimed that ?Several studies have shown that women without toilets at home are vulnerable to sexual violence when travelling to and from public facilities or open fields. [...]?. One mother told researchers, ?We have had one-on-one fights with thugs in order to save our daughters from getting raped. It then becomes a fight that either you [the thug] kill me to get to my daughter, or you back off.? >>> >>> >>> >>> This courageous behaviour of mothers fighting for her girls at the risk of their own lives reminds one of the ?a??-sarpa-ny?ya (?the bunny and the snake?), known to some by hearsay only, but not (yet) traceable. The generalization here lies certainly in the fact that a (physically weaker) female (?a??) effectively fights a (physically stronger) male (sarpa). The latter would be the aggressor(s), the victim(s) the (female) bunny and/or her young. >>> >>> >>> >>> The rare feminine formation ?a?? causes no real trouble, as occurrences of the word are anyway testified in the Mok?op?ya (VI.34.103) and in Ratn?kara??nti?s Vidagdhavism?pana (175) [written communication by Roland Steiner]. >>> >>> >>> >>> In connection of the very idea behind this ny?ya, I should also like to add that Gandhi could indeed have been aware of a similar popular maxim, as he refers explicitly to ?the violence of the mouse against the cat?, writing that >>> >>> >>> >>> ?A girl who attacks her assailant with her nails, if she has grown them, or with her teeth, if she has them [? W.S.], is almost non-violent (...). Her violence is the violence of the mouse against the cat.? (Harijan, 08-09-1940). >>> >>> >>> >>> On the other hand, Gandhi had >>> >>> ?(...) always held that it is physically impossible to violate a woman against her will. (?) If she cannot meet the assailant?s physical might, her purity will give her the strength to die before he succeeds in violating her. (?) I know that women are capable of throwing away their lives for a much lesser purpose.? (Harijan, 25-08-1940). >>> >>> >>> >>> The statement in the last paragraph, only cited for its somewhat conflicting character with the first one, would, if further pursued, however lead into an entirely different matter, better not to be touched. >>> >>> >>> >>> I would be fully satisfied if someone among this learned community could contribute to the mysterious ?a??sarpany?ya, on- or off-list. >>> >>> >>> Thanking you, >>> >>> WS >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------- >>> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje >>> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 >>> D-99425 Weimar >>> Deutschland >>> >>> Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor >>> studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum >>> non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, >>> sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus >>> humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. >>> Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dchakra at hotmail.de Fri Jun 26 08:32:29 2015 From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 15 14:02:29 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] India's president H.E. Pranab Mukherjee visiting Uppsala University Message-ID: India's president H.E. Pranab Mukherjee visiting Uppsala University2015-06-03Uppsala University had the great privilege to host the honorable president of India, Pranab Mukherjee, on 2 June 2015. http://www.fsas.uu.se/ On June 2, during the official Indian state visit to Sweden, the president of India, H.E. Pranab Mukherjee appeared at Uppsala University, alongside the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Sweden, Margot Wallstr?m. H.E. the President was accompanied to Uppsala by two members of the Swedish Royal Family, H.R.H Crown Princess Victoria and H.R.H Prince Daniel. Now, you can view the entire lecture from the Grand Auditorium online provided by Uppsala University (video above).The Forum for South Asia Studies was present at the event with over 100 students and scholars to hear the presidents reflections on Tagore and Gandhi and their relevance for global peace in today's world. Prior to the speech Forum representatives were engaged in high level consultations with several vice chancellors of Indian universities as well as in the official reception of the President and Her Royal Highness, Crown Princess Victoria, at Uppsala University. ?This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.? ? Anandamayi Ma ?Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.? - Paracelsus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 12:08:52 2015 From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 15 08:08:52 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Searching_for_a_little-known_Ny=C4=81ya?= In-Reply-To: <9C951BF9-9141-4C89-A9D3-E7E369E0EF38@verizon.net> Message-ID: Valerie: aren't black-naped hares (*Lepus nigricollis*), also known as Indian hares, native to India? As you may know, Dravidian languages have a non-IA word for rabbit/hare: **mucal*/*muyal (*Telugu *kund?lu *is an interesting exception)*.* Are there any other non-IE words for hare in other Indian languages? I think the words *kharabhaka/ kharago**?** (*?????) 'donkey's ears' are of recent origin, and perhaps have a Persian connection. Elliot: You are right about the language in the video. It is indeed Telugu -- distinctly the Telangana variety. The kids are indeed speaking Americanized English. They must be one of the Telugu-American immigrant families. Walter: I heard *mah?nasa-?a?a-ny?ya* (rabbit in the kitchen -- easy to catch) and *?a?a-vi???a-ny?ya* (a hare's horn -- a term for an impossibility), but not the one you mentioned. I know *?a?i as moon * (in compound form for*?a?in *is moon), but not as a feminine form of *?a?a. *Does any other Indian language show an equivalent of *?a??-sarpa-ny?ya?* Suresh. On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 2:20 AM, Elliot Stern wrote: > The National Geographic Society identifies the rabbit as a female > cottontail rabbit and the snake as a black rat snake { > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150624-rabbits-snakes-animals-science-nation-video/). > It places the video source somewhere in the eastern United States. While I > have not set foot in India since 1982, I believe the architectural features > of the house and the lush green grass in the video are more likely to be > American than Indian. > > The South Indian language is possibly Telugu. amm? is mother and nann? is > father. To my ear, the child?s English language sounds more American than > Indian. > > > Elliot M. Stern > 552 South 48th Street > Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 > United States of America > telephone: 215-747-6204 > mobile: 267-240-8418 > emstern at verizon.net > > On 26 Jun 2015, at 01:40, Valerie Roebuck > wrote: > > One odd thing: the animal in the video does indeed appear to be a rabbit, > as distinct from a hare. I thought that rabbits were not native to India, > and that the word ?a?a referred to a hare (the words ?hare? and ??a?a' > probably being cognates). Of course, they may well behave in the same way > when their young are threatened, but they are different species. > > Valerie J Roebuck > Manchester, UK > > On 25 Jun 2015, at 23:49, Walter Slaje wrote: > > This video is so convincing that the idea of a ?a??sarpany?ya develops all > by itself, even without ever having heard of it before. Great! > > Jan's likely assumption that this textually unattested ny?ya might "have > been based on actual observation" reminds one all the more painfully of our > insufficient knowledge of realia and the material culture of pre-modern > India. > > Speaking of ny?yas - and we may as well include the kavi-samayas, the > ideological and material roots of which still remain unexplored by and > large -, I should like to draw your attention to a promising rumour > according to which the Indological Section of the DMG (German Oriental > Society) consider a prize competition for cracking the history of > development of some of the toughest ny?ya- and kavisamaya-nuts. This might > possibly materialize in the broader context of the 33rd Deutscher > Orientalistentag to be held from the 18th to the 22nd of September 2017 > in Jena, Germany (the domain of, among others, Otto von B?htlingk and the > Schlegel brothers). > I am not well informed enough, but would advise an occasional glance at > the homepage of the Section (http://www.dmg-web.de/indologie/index.html) > in the run-up to the Orientalistentag in 2017. So, plenty of time for > warming-up. > > Many thanks, and kind regards, > WS > > > 2015-06-25 13:40 GMT+02:00 Patrick Olivelle : > >> Walter and all: >> >> I do not know abut this maxim, but this real life video of a mother >> rabbit doing just what the maxim say could be instructive. It was probably >> filmed somewhere in south India, I am not sure of the language of the >> people taping it. >> >> Patrick >> >> http://*zeenews.india.com* >> /news/world/watch-the-epic-fight-here-rabbit-battling-a-snake-to-protect-her-bunnies_1619126.html >> >> >> The South Indian language is possibly Telugu. >> >> On Jun 25, 2015, at 3:24 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> >> I am searching for textual evidence of a little-known Ny?ya. >> >> >> In an article by Soutik Biswas ?Why India's sanitation crisis kills >> women? (BBC News India, 30 May 2014), it was claimed that ?Several studies >> have shown that women without toilets at home are vulnerable to sexual >> violence when travelling to and from public facilities or open fields. >> [...]?. One mother told researchers, ?We have had *one-on-one fights >> with thugs in order to save our daughters from getting raped*. It then >> becomes a fight that either you [the thug] *kill me to get to my >> daughter*, or you back off.? >> >> >> This courageous behaviour of mothers fighting for her girls at the risk >> of their own lives reminds one of the *?a??-sarpa-ny?ya* (?the bunny and >> the snake?), known to some by hearsay only, but not (yet) traceable. The >> generalization here lies certainly in the fact that a (physically weaker) >> female (*?a??*) effectively fights a (physically stronger) male (*sarpa*). >> The latter would be the aggressor(s), the victim(s) the (female) bunny >> and/or her young. >> >> >> The rare feminine formation *?a??* causes no real trouble, as >> occurrences of the word are anyway testified in the *Mok?op?ya* >> (VI.34.103) and in Ratn?kara??nti?s *Vidagdhavism?pana* (175) [written >> communication by Roland Steiner]. >> >> >> In connection of the very idea behind this ny?ya, I should also like to >> add that Gandhi could indeed have been aware of a similar popular maxim, as >> he refers explicitly to ?the violence of *the mouse against the cat*?, >> writing that >> >> >> ?A girl who attacks her assailant with her nails, if she has grown them, >> or with her teeth, *if she has them* [? W.S.], is almost non-violent >> (...). Her violence is the violence of the mouse against the cat.? (Harijan, >> 08-09-1940). >> >> >> On the other hand, Gandhi had >> >> ?(...) always held that it is physically impossible to violate a woman >> against her will. (?) If she cannot meet the assailant?s physical might, >> her purity will give her the strength to die before he succeeds in >> violating her. (?) I know that women are capable of throwing away their >> lives for a much lesser purpose.? (Harijan, 25-08-1940). >> >> >> The statement in the last paragraph, only cited for its somewhat >> conflicting character with the first one, would, if further pursued, >> however lead into an entirely different matter, better not to be touched. >> >> >> I would be fully satisfied if someone among this learned community could >> contribute to the mysterious* ?a??sarpany?ya*, on- or off-list. >> >> >> Thanking you, >> >> WS >> >> ----------------------------- >> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje >> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 >> D-99425 Weimar >> Deutschland >> >> Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor >> studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum >> non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, >> sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus >> humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. >> Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Fri Jun 26 13:07:26 2015 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 15 14:07:26 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Searching_for_a_little-known_Ny=C4=81ya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9A4CEB99-40B2-439F-9F44-A35D16955AFE@btinternet.com> Dear Suresh That was the point I was making: that hares, but not rabbits, are native to India. (The same is true of the UK, but our rabbits were introduced quite early, probably in Roman times.) It sounds as though the Sanskrit word for hare has been generalised to cover leporids in general, while English has kept the cognate IE word just for the hare and added the word ?rabbit? (of unknown origin) for the introduced species. Valerie > On 26 Jun 2015, at 13:08, Suresh Kolichala wrote: > > Valerie: aren't black-naped hares (Lepus nigricollis), also known as Indian hares, native to India? As you may know, Dravidian languages have a non-IA word for rabbit/hare: *mucal/muyal (Telugu kund?lu is an interesting exception). Are there any other non-IE words for hare in other Indian languages? I think the words kharabhaka/ kharago? (?????) 'donkey's ears' are of recent origin, and perhaps have a Persian connection. > > Elliot: You are right about the language in the video. It is indeed Telugu -- distinctly the Telangana variety. The kids are indeed speaking Americanized English. They must be one of the Telugu-American immigrant families. > > Walter: I heard mah?nasa-?a?a-ny?ya (rabbit in the kitchen -- easy to catch) and ?a?a-vi???a-ny?ya (a hare's horn -- a term for an impossibility), but not the one you mentioned. I know ?a?i as moon (in compound form for?a?in is moon), but not as a feminine form of ?a?a. Does any other Indian language show an equivalent of ?a??-sarpa-ny?ya? > > Suresh. > > On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 2:20 AM, Elliot Stern > wrote: > The National Geographic Society identifies the rabbit as a female cottontail rabbit and the snake as a black rat snake {http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150624-rabbits-snakes-animals-science-nation-video/ ). It places the video source somewhere in the eastern United States. While I have not set foot in India since 1982, I believe the architectural features of the house and the lush green grass in the video are more likely to be American than Indian. > > The South Indian language is possibly Telugu. amm? is mother and nann? is father. To my ear, the child?s English language sounds more American than Indian. > > > Elliot M. Stern > 552 South 48th Street > Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 > United States of America > telephone: 215-747-6204 > mobile: 267-240-8418 > emstern at verizon.net >> On 26 Jun 2015, at 01:40, Valerie Roebuck > wrote: >> >> One odd thing: the animal in the video does indeed appear to be a rabbit, as distinct from a hare. I thought that rabbits were not native to India, and that the word ?a?a referred to a hare (the words ?hare? and ??a?a' probably being cognates). Of course, they may well behave in the same way when their young are threatened, but they are different species. >> >> Valerie J Roebuck >> Manchester, UK >> >>> On 25 Jun 2015, at 23:49, Walter Slaje > wrote: >>> >>> This video is so convincing that the idea of a ?a??sarpany?ya develops all by itself, even without ever having heard of it before. Great! >>> >>> Jan's likely assumption that this textually unattested ny?ya might "have been based on actual observation" reminds one all the more painfully of our insufficient knowledge of realia and the material culture of pre-modern India. >>> >>> Speaking of ny?yas - and we may as well include the kavi-samayas, the ideological and material roots of which still remain unexplored by and large -, I should like to draw your attention to a promising rumour according to which the Indological Section of the DMG (German Oriental Society) consider a prize competition for cracking the history of development of some of the toughest ny?ya- and kavisamaya-nuts. This might possibly materialize in the broader context of the 33rd Deutscher Orientalistentag to be held from the 18th to the 22nd of September 2017 in Jena, Germany (the domain of, among others, Otto von B?htlingk and the Schlegel brothers). >>> I am not well informed enough, but would advise an occasional glance at the homepage of the Section (http://www.dmg-web.de/indologie/index.html ) in the run-up to the Orientalistentag in 2017. So, plenty of time for warming-up. >>> >>> Many thanks, and kind regards, >>> WS >>> >>> >>> 2015-06-25 13:40 GMT+02:00 Patrick Olivelle >: >>> Walter and all: >>> >>> I do not know abut this maxim, but this real life video of a mother rabbit doing just what the maxim say could be instructive. It was probably filmed somewhere in south India, I am not sure of the language of the people taping it. >>> >>> Patrick >>> >>> http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/watch-the-epic-fight-here-rabbit-battling-a-snake-to-protect-her-bunnies_1619126.html >>> >>> The South Indian language is possibly Telugu. >>> >>> On Jun 25, 2015, at 3:24 AM, Walter Slaje > wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am searching for textual evidence of a little-known Ny?ya. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In an article by Soutik Biswas ?Why India's sanitation crisis kills women? (BBC News India, 30 May 2014), it was claimed that ?Several studies have shown that women without toilets at home are vulnerable to sexual violence when travelling to and from public facilities or open fields. [...]?. One mother told researchers, ?We have had one-on-one fights with thugs in order to save our daughters from getting raped. It then becomes a fight that either you [the thug] kill me to get to my daughter, or you back off.? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This courageous behaviour of mothers fighting for her girls at the risk of their own lives reminds one of the ?a??-sarpa-ny?ya (?the bunny and the snake?), known to some by hearsay only, but not (yet) traceable. The generalization here lies certainly in the fact that a (physically weaker) female (?a??) effectively fights a (physically stronger) male (sarpa). The latter would be the aggressor(s), the victim(s) the (female) bunny and/or her young. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The rare feminine formation ?a?? causes no real trouble, as occurrences of the word are anyway testified in the Mok?op?ya (VI.34.103) and in Ratn?kara??nti?s Vidagdhavism?pana (175) [written communication by Roland Steiner]. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In connection of the very idea behind this ny?ya, I should also like to add that Gandhi could indeed have been aware of a similar popular maxim, as he refers explicitly to ?the violence of the mouse against the cat?, writing that >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ?A girl who attacks her assailant with her nails, if she has grown them, or with her teeth, if she has them [? W.S.], is almost non-violent (...). Her violence is the violence of the mouse against the cat.? (Harijan, 08-09-1940). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On the other hand, Gandhi had >>>> >>>> ?(...) always held that it is physically impossible to violate a woman against her will. (?) If she cannot meet the assailant?s physical might, her purity will give her the strength to die before he succeeds in violating her. (?) I know that women are capable of throwing away their lives for a much lesser purpose.? (Harijan, 25-08-1940). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The statement in the last paragraph, only cited for its somewhat conflicting character with the first one, would, if further pursued, however lead into an entirely different matter, better not to be touched. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I would be fully satisfied if someone among this learned community could contribute to the mysterious ?a??sarpany?ya, on- or off-list. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanking you, >>>> >>>> WS >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------------------- >>>> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje >>>> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 >>>> D-99425 Weimar >>>> Deutschland >>>> >>>> Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor >>>> studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum >>>> non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, >>>> sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus >>>> humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. >>>> Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 15:31:20 2015 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (dhaval patel) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 15 21:01:20 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Crowdfunding Sanskrit Accent generator Message-ID: Dear all, Sorry for cross posting to more than one group. Just wanted to spread the word that we are trying to crowdfund a project for Sanskrit Accents. The details of project and crowdfunding at - https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sanskrit-accents#/story It is an attempt to replicate the phiTsUtras by computational means to derive accented words from unaccented words. If it gets through, probably it would be the first Sanskrit NLP project to be crowdfunded. If the project seems good enough, please spread the word to potential supporters. Regards -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Anand www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Sat Jun 27 07:33:07 2015 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 15 09:33:07 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Searching_for_a_little-known_Ny=C4=81ya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Suresh: > Does any other Indian language show an equivalent of *?a??-sarpa-ny?ya?* Perhaps a ?courageous-weak-female-conquers-physically-strong-male? paradigm is the original notion at its basis. This could have found various forms of expression, and the ?*?a??-sarpa*-ny?ya? may very well have taken shape as a witty ad-hoc Sanskritization of internalized popular sayings. They might possibly draw on the behaviour of animals entirely different from hares and snakes. As stated initially, I was immediately reminded of Gandhiji?s ?violence of the mouse against the cat?. On second thoughts however ? inspired by the empirical evidence of the ?Go, Mr. Bunny, kill that snake!? video ? I have my doubts, whether such a ny?ya would be conceivable at all. Is it likely that a mouse behaves violently against a cat, and that observations of that kind had really been made? Could Jan possibly contribute a live video footage to solve this question? :-) I changed upon three instances using a ?weaker female / stronger male? metaphor taken from the animal kingdom. The female (Queen Ko?? from Kashmir) is compared to a mouse, to a (female) jackal, and to a bird respectively, her male opponents however to a cat and a lion. Guess, who wins! I for one failed to find traces of heroic courage in it. Regards, WS Jonar?ja?s *R?jatara?gi??* *sa?ka??t kampane?as t?? kul?y?d iva pak?i??m *| *j?vagr?ha? g?h?tv?tha k?r?pa?jaram ?nayat *|| JRT 286 || ?[But] the commander captured her alive out of a defile as one catches a bird out of its nest [and] then threw her into prison [just as one throws a bird into] a cage.? *niv?ttanetrac?rasya capalatvaikak?ra?am *| *?khur** bilagato voto? ??hamerasya s?bhavat* || [Ps-JRT 17, B 341] || ?[Since] swift movement would set [someone?s] resting eyes in motion, [Ko??] behaved towards ??h M?r like a mouse in a hole towards a cat.? *niruddhe balin? ko?aguh?bhre mati??lin?* | *n?si?hen?**bhajat Ko?? s?g?l?va muhur bhayam* || JRT 302 || ?Almost like a jackal Ko?? was suddenly seized with fear when the mighty, clever man, who resembled a lion, besieged [her] towering refuge.? 2015-06-26 14:08 GMT+02:00 Suresh Kolichala : > Valerie: aren't black-naped hares (*Lepus nigricollis*), also known as > Indian hares, native to India? As you may know, Dravidian languages have a > non-IA word for rabbit/hare: **mucal*/*muyal (*Telugu *kund?lu *is an > interesting exception)*.* Are there any other non-IE words for hare in > other Indian languages? I think the words *kharabhaka/ kharago**?** (*?????) > 'donkey's ears' are of recent origin, and perhaps have a Persian > connection. > > Elliot: You are right about the language in the video. It is indeed Telugu > -- distinctly the Telangana variety. The kids are indeed speaking > Americanized English. They must be one of the Telugu-American immigrant > families. > > Walter: I heard *mah?nasa-?a?a-ny?ya* (rabbit in the kitchen -- easy to > catch) and *?a?a-vi???a-ny?ya* (a hare's horn -- a term for an > impossibility), but not the one you mentioned. I know *?a?i as moon * (in > compound form for*?a?in *is moon), but not as a feminine form of *?a?a. *Does > any other Indian language show an equivalent of *?a??-sarpa-ny?ya?* > > Suresh. > > On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 2:20 AM, Elliot Stern wrote: > >> The National Geographic Society identifies the rabbit as a female >> cottontail rabbit and the snake as a black rat snake { >> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150624-rabbits-snakes-animals-science-nation-video/). >> It places the video source somewhere in the eastern United States. While I >> have not set foot in India since 1982, I believe the architectural features >> of the house and the lush green grass in the video are more likely to be >> American than Indian. >> >> The South Indian language is possibly Telugu. amm? is mother and nann? is >> father. To my ear, the child?s English language sounds more American than >> Indian. >> >> >> Elliot M. Stern >> 552 South 48th Street >> Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >> United States of America >> telephone: 215-747-6204 >> mobile: 267-240-8418 >> emstern at verizon.net >> >> On 26 Jun 2015, at 01:40, Valerie Roebuck >> wrote: >> >> One odd thing: the animal in the video does indeed appear to be a rabbit, >> as distinct from a hare. I thought that rabbits were not native to India, >> and that the word ?a?a referred to a hare (the words ?hare? and ??a?a' >> probably being cognates). Of course, they may well behave in the same way >> when their young are threatened, but they are different species. >> >> Valerie J Roebuck >> Manchester, UK >> >> On 25 Jun 2015, at 23:49, Walter Slaje wrote: >> >> This video is so convincing that the idea of a ?a??sarpany?ya develops >> all by itself, even without ever having heard of it before. Great! >> >> Jan's likely assumption that this textually unattested ny?ya might "have >> been based on actual observation" reminds one all the more painfully of our >> insufficient knowledge of realia and the material culture of pre-modern >> India. >> >> Speaking of ny?yas - and we may as well include the kavi-samayas, the >> ideological and material roots of which still remain unexplored by and >> large -, I should like to draw your attention to a promising rumour >> according to which the Indological Section of the DMG (German Oriental >> Society) consider a prize competition for cracking the history of >> development of some of the toughest ny?ya- and kavisamaya-nuts. This might >> possibly materialize in the broader context of the 33rd Deutscher >> Orientalistentag to be held from the 18th to the 22nd of September 2017 >> in Jena, Germany (the domain of, among others, Otto von B?htlingk and the >> Schlegel brothers). >> I am not well informed enough, but would advise an occasional glance at >> the homepage of the Section (http://www.dmg-web.de/indologie/index.html) >> in the run-up to the Orientalistentag in 2017. So, plenty of time for >> warming-up. >> >> Many thanks, and kind regards, >> WS >> >> >> 2015-06-25 13:40 GMT+02:00 Patrick Olivelle : >> >>> Walter and all: >>> >>> I do not know abut this maxim, but this real life video of a mother >>> rabbit doing just what the maxim say could be instructive. It was probably >>> filmed somewhere in south India, I am not sure of the language of the >>> people taping it. >>> >>> Patrick >>> >>> http://*zeenews.india.com* >>> /news/world/watch-the-epic-fight-here-rabbit-battling-a-snake-to-protect-her-bunnies_1619126.html >>> >>> >>> The South Indian language is possibly Telugu. >>> >>> On Jun 25, 2015, at 3:24 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> >>> I am searching for textual evidence of a little-known Ny?ya. >>> >>> >>> In an article by Soutik Biswas ?Why India's sanitation crisis kills >>> women? (BBC News India, 30 May 2014), it was claimed that ?Several studies >>> have shown that women without toilets at home are vulnerable to sexual >>> violence when travelling to and from public facilities or open fields. >>> [...]?. One mother told researchers, ?We have had *one-on-one fights >>> with thugs in order to save our daughters from getting raped*. It then >>> becomes a fight that either you [the thug] *kill me to get to my >>> daughter*, or you back off.? >>> >>> >>> This courageous behaviour of mothers fighting for her girls at the risk >>> of their own lives reminds one of the *?a??-sarpa-ny?ya* (?the bunny >>> and the snake?), known to some by hearsay only, but not (yet) traceable. >>> The generalization here lies certainly in the fact that a (physically >>> weaker) female (*?a??*) effectively fights a (physically stronger) male >>> (*sarpa*). The latter would be the aggressor(s), the victim(s) the >>> (female) bunny and/or her young. >>> >>> >>> The rare feminine formation *?a??* causes no real trouble, as >>> occurrences of the word are anyway testified in the *Mok?op?ya* >>> (VI.34.103) and in Ratn?kara??nti?s *Vidagdhavism?pana* (175) [written >>> communication by Roland Steiner]. >>> >>> >>> In connection of the very idea behind this ny?ya, I should also like to >>> add that Gandhi could indeed have been aware of a similar popular maxim, as >>> he refers explicitly to ?the violence of *the mouse against the cat*?, >>> writing that >>> >>> >>> ?A girl who attacks her assailant with her nails, if she has grown them, >>> or with her teeth, *if she has them* [? W.S.], is almost non-violent >>> (...). Her violence is the violence of the mouse against the cat.? (Harijan, >>> 08-09-1940). >>> >>> >>> On the other hand, Gandhi had >>> >>> ?(...) always held that it is physically impossible to violate a woman >>> against her will. (?) If she cannot meet the assailant?s physical might, >>> her purity will give her the strength to die before he succeeds in >>> violating her. (?) I know that women are capable of throwing away their >>> lives for a much lesser purpose.? (Harijan, 25-08-1940). >>> >>> >>> The statement in the last paragraph, only cited for its somewhat >>> conflicting character with the first one, would, if further pursued, >>> however lead into an entirely different matter, better not to be touched. >>> >>> >>> I would be fully satisfied if someone among this learned community could >>> contribute to the mysterious* ?a??sarpany?ya*, on- or off-list. >>> >>> >>> Thanking you, >>> >>> WS >>> >>> ----------------------------- >>> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje >>> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 >>> D-99425 Weimar >>> Deutschland >>> >>> Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor >>> studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum >>> non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, >>> sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus >>> humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. >>> Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 09:31:32 2015 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 15 11:31:32 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Searching_for_a_little-known_Ny=C4=81ya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <843695F1-4BB2-4B82-820B-2F227595FD2B@googlemail.com> Dear Prof. Slaje, A story of a rat (or mouse) killing a jackal is narrated in the Bilarajataka (Jataka 128), possibly with the intention to communicate the message that a week but good character can overcome a strong but bad one. Kind regards, Philipp Maas Von meinem iPod gesendet Am 27.06.2015 um 09:33 schrieb Walter Slaje : > Suresh: > > Does any other Indian language show an equivalent of ?a??-sarpa-ny?ya? > > > > Perhaps a ?courageous-weak-female-conquers-physically-strong-male? paradigm is the original notion at its basis. This could have found various forms of expression, and the ??a??-sarpa-ny?ya? may very well have taken shape as a witty ad-hoc Sanskritization of internalized popular sayings. They might possibly draw on the behaviour of animals entirely different from hares and snakes. As stated initially, I was immediately reminded of Gandhiji?s ?violence of the mouse against the cat?. On second thoughts however ? inspired by the empirical evidence of the ?Go, Mr. Bunny, kill that snake!? video ? I have my doubts, whether such a ny?ya would be conceivable at all. Is it likely that a mouse behaves violently against a cat, and that observations of that kind had really been made? Could Jan possibly contribute a live video footage to solve this question? :-) > > > > I changed upon three instances using a ?weaker female / stronger male? metaphor taken from the animal kingdom. The female (Queen Ko?? from Kashmir) is compared to a mouse, to a (female) jackal, and to a bird respectively, her male opponents however to a cat and a lion. Guess, who wins! I for one failed to find traces of heroic courage in it. > > > > Regards, > > WS > > > > Jonar?ja?s R?jatara?gi?? > > sa?ka??t kampane?as t?? kul?y?d iva pak?i??m | > > j?vagr?ha? g?h?tv?tha k?r?pa?jaram ?nayat || JRT 286 || > > ?[But] the commander captured her alive out of a defile as one catches a bird out of its nest [and] then threw her into prison [just as one throws a bird into] a cage.? > > > niv?ttanetrac?rasya capalatvaikak?ra?am | > > ?khur bilagato voto? ??hamerasya s?bhavat || [Ps-JRT 17, B 341] || > > ?[Since] swift movement would set [someone?s] resting eyes in motion, [Ko??] behaved towards ??h M?r like a mouse in a hole towards a cat.? > > > niruddhe balin? ko?aguh?bhre mati??lin? | > > n?si?hen?bhajat Ko?? s?g?l?va muhur bhayam || JRT 302 || > > ?Almost like a jackal Ko?? was suddenly seized with fear when the mighty, clever man, who resembled a lion, besieged [her] towering refuge.? > > > > > > 2015-06-26 14:08 GMT+02:00 Suresh Kolichala : >> Valerie: aren't black-naped hares (Lepus nigricollis), also known as Indian hares, native to India? As you may know, Dravidian languages have a non-IA word for rabbit/hare: *mucal/muyal (Telugu kund?lu is an interesting exception). Are there any other non-IE words for hare in other Indian languages? I think the words kharabhaka/ kharago? (?????) 'donkey's ears' are of recent origin, and perhaps have a Persian connection. >> >> Elliot: You are right about the language in the video. It is indeed Telugu -- distinctly the Telangana variety. The kids are indeed speaking Americanized English. They must be one of the Telugu-American immigrant families. >> >> Walter: I heard mah?nasa-?a?a-ny?ya (rabbit in the kitchen -- easy to catch) and ?a?a-vi???a-ny?ya (a hare's horn -- a term for an impossibility), but not the one you mentioned. I know ?a?i as moon (in compound form for?a?in is moon), but not as a feminine form of ?a?a. Does any other Indian language show an equivalent of ?a??-sarpa-ny?ya? >> >> Suresh. >> >> On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 2:20 AM, Elliot Stern wrote: >>> The National Geographic Society identifies the rabbit as a female cottontail rabbit and the snake as a black rat snake {http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150624-rabbits-snakes-animals-science-nation-video/). It places the video source somewhere in the eastern United States. While I have not set foot in India since 1982, I believe the architectural features of the house and the lush green grass in the video are more likely to be American than Indian. >>> >>> The South Indian language is possibly Telugu. amm? is mother and nann? is father. To my ear, the child?s English language sounds more American than Indian. >>> >>> >>> Elliot M. Stern >>> 552 South 48th Street >>> Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >>> United States of America >>> telephone: 215-747-6204 >>> mobile: 267-240-8418 >>> emstern at verizon.net >>> >>>> On 26 Jun 2015, at 01:40, Valerie Roebuck wrote: >>>> >>>> One odd thing: the animal in the video does indeed appear to be a rabbit, as distinct from a hare. I thought that rabbits were not native to India, and that the word ?a?a referred to a hare (the words ?hare? and ??a?a' probably being cognates). Of course, they may well behave in the same way when their young are threatened, but they are different species. >>>> >>>> Valerie J Roebuck >>>> Manchester, UK >>>> >>>>> On 25 Jun 2015, at 23:49, Walter Slaje wrote: >>>>> >>>>> This video is so convincing that the idea of a ?a??sarpany?ya develops all by itself, even without ever having heard of it before. Great! >>>>> >>>>> Jan's likely assumption that this textually unattested ny?ya might "have been based on actual observation" reminds one all the more painfully of our insufficient knowledge of realia and the material culture of pre-modern India. >>>>> >>>>> Speaking of ny?yas - and we may as well include the kavi-samayas, the ideological and material roots of which still remain unexplored by and large -, I should like to draw your attention to a promising rumour according to which the Indological Section of the DMG (German Oriental Society) consider a prize competition for cracking the history of development of some of the toughest ny?ya- and kavisamaya-nuts. This might possibly materialize in the broader context of the 33rd Deutscher Orientalistentag to be held from the 18th to the 22nd of September 2017 in Jena, Germany (the domain of, among others, Otto von B?htlingk and the Schlegel brothers). >>>>> I am not well informed enough, but would advise an occasional glance at the homepage of the Section (http://www.dmg-web.de/indologie/index.html) in the run-up to the Orientalistentag in 2017. So, plenty of time for warming-up. >>>>> >>>>> Many thanks, and kind regards, >>>>> WS >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2015-06-25 13:40 GMT+02:00 Patrick Olivelle : >>>>>> Walter and all: >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not know abut this maxim, but this real life video of a mother rabbit doing just what the maxim say could be instructive. It was probably filmed somewhere in south India, I am not sure of the language of the people taping it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Patrick >>>>>> >>>>>> http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/watch-the-epic-fight-here-rabbit-battling-a-snake-to-protect-her-bunnies_1619126.html >>>>>> >>>>>> The South Indian language is possibly Telugu. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 25, 2015, at 3:24 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am searching for textual evidence of a little-known Ny?ya. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In an article by Soutik Biswas ?Why India's sanitation crisis kills women? (BBC News India, 30 May 2014), it was claimed that ?Several studies have shown that women without toilets at home are vulnerable to sexual violence when travelling to and from public facilities or open fields. [...]?. One mother told researchers, ?We have had one-on-one fights with thugs in order to save our daughters from getting raped. It then becomes a fight that either you [the thug] kill me to get to my daughter, or you back off.? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This courageous behaviour of mothers fighting for her girls at the risk of their own lives reminds one of the ?a??-sarpa-ny?ya (?the bunny and the snake?), known to some by hearsay only, but not (yet) traceable. The generalization here lies certainly in the fact that a (physically weaker) female (?a??) effectively fights a (physically stronger) male (sarpa). The latter would be the aggressor(s), the victim(s) the (female) bunny and/or her young. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The rare feminine formation ?a?? causes no real trouble, as occurrences of the word are anyway testified in the Mok?op?ya (VI.34.103) and in Ratn?kara??nti?s Vidagdhavism?pana (175) [written communication by Roland Steiner]. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In connection of the very idea behind this ny?ya, I should also like to add that Gandhi could indeed have been aware of a similar popular maxim, as he refers explicitly to ?the violence of the mouse against the cat?, writing that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?A girl who attacks her assailant with her nails, if she has grown them, or with her teeth, if she has them [? W.S.], is almost non-violent (...). Her violence is the violence of the mouse against the cat.? (Harijan, 08-09-1940). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the other hand, Gandhi had >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?(...) always held that it is physically impossible to violate a woman against her will. (?) If she cannot meet the assailant?s physical might, her purity will give her the strength to die before he succeeds in violating her. (?) I know that women are capable of throwing away their lives for a much lesser purpose.? (Harijan, 25-08-1940). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The statement in the last paragraph, only cited for its somewhat conflicting character with the first one, would, if further pursued, however lead into an entirely different matter, better not to be touched. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would be fully satisfied if someone among this learned community could contribute to the mysterious ?a??sarpany?ya, on- or off-list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanking you, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>>> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje >>>>>>> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 >>>>>>> D-99425 Weimar >>>>>>> Deutschland >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor >>>>>>> studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum >>>>>>> non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, >>>>>>> sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus >>>>>>> humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. >>>>>>> Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Sat Jun 27 12:09:36 2015 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 15 13:09:36 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Searching_for_a_little-known_Ny=C4=81ya?= In-Reply-To: <843695F1-4BB2-4B82-820B-2F227595FD2B@googlemail.com> Message-ID: That J?taka is an odd one, because, while the prose portion refers to a jackal, the verse portion (and the title) refer to a cat.The Bodhisatta is a mouse as big as a boar, who bites the throat of the scheming cat/jackal and kills it. Although it would be improbable for a mouse to kill a cat, a rat could certainly do it a lot of damage, and it takes quite a big or bold cat to take on a rat (though archaeological remains from elsewhere suggest that at this period the domestic cat (Felis catus) was still bigger on average than it is today.) The verse part of the J?taka may reflect a period when the black rat (Rattus rattus) and (not coincidentally) the domestic cat had arrived in India on ships. (Merchant seafaring is quite a frequent theme in the J?takas, perhaps reflecting the circles in which these stories arose.) In the prose portion of the J?taka, which may be later, the cat has been replaced by another animal regarded as a schemer, and one more familiar in Indian fable. Strangely, none of the story books I have seen that retell J?taka tales for children seems to include a picture of the Bodhisatta as a giant rat biting the throat of a pussycat. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK > On 27 Jun 2015, at 10:31, Philipp Maas wrote: > > Dear Prof. Slaje, > A story of a rat (or mouse) killing a jackal is narrated in the Bilarajataka (Jataka 128), possibly with the intention to communicate the message that a week but good character can overcome a strong but bad one. > > Kind regards, > > Philipp Maas > > Von meinem iPod gesendet > > Am 27.06.2015 um 09:33 schrieb Walter Slaje >: > >> Suresh: >> > Does any other Indian language show an equivalent of ?a??-sarpa-ny?ya? >> >> >> >> Perhaps a ?courageous-weak-female-conquers-physically-strong-male? paradigm is the original notion at its basis. This could have found various forms of expression, and the ??a??-sarpa-ny?ya? may very well have taken shape as a witty ad-hoc Sanskritization of internalized popular sayings. They might possibly draw on the behaviour of animals entirely different from hares and snakes. As stated initially, I was immediately reminded of Gandhiji?s ?violence of the mouse against the cat?. On second thoughts however ? inspired by the empirical evidence of the ?Go, Mr. Bunny, kill that snake!? video ? I have my doubts, whether such a ny?ya would be conceivable at all. Is it likely that a mouse behaves violently against a cat, and that observations of that kind had really been made? Could Jan possibly contribute a live video footage to solve this question? :-) >> >> >> >> I changed upon three instances using a ?weaker female / stronger male? metaphor taken from the animal kingdom. The female (Queen Ko?? from Kashmir) is compared to a mouse, to a (female) jackal, and to a bird respectively, her male opponents however to a cat and a lion. Guess, who wins! I for one failed to find traces of heroic courage in it. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> WS >> >> >> Jonar?ja?s R?jatara?gi?? >> >> sa?ka??t kampane?as t?? kul?y?d iva pak?i??m | >> >> j?vagr?ha? g?h?tv?tha k?r?pa?jaram ?nayat || JRT 286 || >> >> ?[But] the commander captured her alive out of a defile as one catches a bird out of its nest [and] then threw her into prison [just as one throws a bird into] a cage.? >> >> >> niv?ttanetrac?rasya capalatvaikak?ra?am | >> >> ?khur bilagato voto? ??hamerasya s?bhavat || [Ps-JRT 17, B 341] || >> >> ?[Since] swift movement would set [someone?s] resting eyes in motion, [Ko??] behaved towards ??h M?r like a mouse in a hole towards a cat.? >> >> niruddhe balin? ko?aguh?bhre mati??lin? | >> >> n?si?hen?bhajat Ko?? s?g?l?va muhur bhayam || JRT 302 || >> >> ?Almost like a jackal Ko?? was suddenly seized with fear when the mighty, clever man, who resembled a lion, besieged [her] towering refuge.? >> >> >> >> >> >> 2015-06-26 14:08 GMT+02:00 Suresh Kolichala >: >> Valerie: aren't black-naped hares (Lepus nigricollis), also known as Indian hares, native to India? As you may know, Dravidian languages have a non-IA word for rabbit/hare: *mucal/muyal (Telugu kund?lu is an interesting exception). Are there any other non-IE words for hare in other Indian languages? I think the words kharabhaka/ kharago? (?????) 'donkey's ears' are of recent origin, and perhaps have a Persian connection. >> >> Elliot: You are right about the language in the video. It is indeed Telugu -- distinctly the Telangana variety. The kids are indeed speaking Americanized English. They must be one of the Telugu-American immigrant families. >> >> Walter: I heard mah?nasa-?a?a-ny?ya (rabbit in the kitchen -- easy to catch) and ?a?a-vi???a-ny?ya (a hare's horn -- a term for an impossibility), but not the one you mentioned. I know ?a?i as moon (in compound form for?a?in is moon), but not as a feminine form of ?a?a. Does any other Indian language show an equivalent of ?a??-sarpa-ny?ya? >> >> Suresh. >> >> On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 2:20 AM, Elliot Stern > wrote: >> The National Geographic Society identifies the rabbit as a female cottontail rabbit and the snake as a black rat snake {http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150624-rabbits-snakes-animals-science-nation-video/ ). It places the video source somewhere in the eastern United States. While I have not set foot in India since 1982, I believe the architectural features of the house and the lush green grass in the video are more likely to be American than Indian. >> >> The South Indian language is possibly Telugu. amm? is mother and nann? is father. To my ear, the child?s English language sounds more American than Indian. >> >> >> Elliot M. Stern >> 552 South 48th Street >> Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >> United States of America >> telephone: 215-747-6204 >> mobile: 267-240-8418 >> emstern at verizon.net >>> On 26 Jun 2015, at 01:40, Valerie Roebuck > wrote: >>> >>> One odd thing: the animal in the video does indeed appear to be a rabbit, as distinct from a hare. I thought that rabbits were not native to India, and that the word ?a?a referred to a hare (the words ?hare? and ??a?a' probably being cognates). Of course, they may well behave in the same way when their young are threatened, but they are different species. >>> >>> Valerie J Roebuck >>> Manchester, UK >>> >>>> On 25 Jun 2015, at 23:49, Walter Slaje > wrote: >>>> >>>> This video is so convincing that the idea of a ?a??sarpany?ya develops all by itself, even without ever having heard of it before. Great! >>>> >>>> Jan's likely assumption that this textually unattested ny?ya might "have been based on actual observation" reminds one all the more painfully of our insufficient knowledge of realia and the material culture of pre-modern India. >>>> >>>> Speaking of ny?yas - and we may as well include the kavi-samayas, the ideological and material roots of which still remain unexplored by and large -, I should like to draw your attention to a promising rumour according to which the Indological Section of the DMG (German Oriental Society) consider a prize competition for cracking the history of development of some of the toughest ny?ya- and kavisamaya-nuts. This might possibly materialize in the broader context of the 33rd Deutscher Orientalistentag to be held from the 18th to the 22nd of September 2017 in Jena, Germany (the domain of, among others, Otto von B?htlingk and the Schlegel brothers). >>>> I am not well informed enough, but would advise an occasional glance at the homepage of the Section (http://www.dmg-web.de/indologie/index.html ) in the run-up to the Orientalistentag in 2017. So, plenty of time for warming-up. >>>> >>>> Many thanks, and kind regards, >>>> WS >>>> >>>> >>>> 2015-06-25 13:40 GMT+02:00 Patrick Olivelle >: >>>> Walter and all: >>>> >>>> I do not know abut this maxim, but this real life video of a mother rabbit doing just what the maxim say could be instructive. It was probably filmed somewhere in south India, I am not sure of the language of the people taping it. >>>> >>>> Patrick >>>> >>>> http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/watch-the-epic-fight-here-rabbit-battling-a-snake-to-protect-her-bunnies_1619126.html >>>> >>>> The South Indian language is possibly Telugu. >>>> >>>> On Jun 25, 2015, at 3:24 AM, Walter Slaje > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am searching for textual evidence of a little-known Ny?ya. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In an article by Soutik Biswas ?Why India's sanitation crisis kills women? (BBC News India, 30 May 2014), it was claimed that ?Several studies have shown that women without toilets at home are vulnerable to sexual violence when travelling to and from public facilities or open fields. [...]?. One mother told researchers, ?We have had one-on-one fights with thugs in order to save our daughters from getting raped. It then becomes a fight that either you [the thug] kill me to get to my daughter, or you back off.? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This courageous behaviour of mothers fighting for her girls at the risk of their own lives reminds one of the ?a??-sarpa-ny?ya (?the bunny and the snake?), known to some by hearsay only, but not (yet) traceable. The generalization here lies certainly in the fact that a (physically weaker) female (?a??) effectively fights a (physically stronger) male (sarpa). The latter would be the aggressor(s), the victim(s) the (female) bunny and/or her young. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The rare feminine formation ?a?? causes no real trouble, as occurrences of the word are anyway testified in the Mok?op?ya (VI.34.103) and in Ratn?kara??nti?s Vidagdhavism?pana (175) [written communication by Roland Steiner]. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In connection of the very idea behind this ny?ya, I should also like to add that Gandhi could indeed have been aware of a similar popular maxim, as he refers explicitly to ?the violence of the mouse against the cat?, writing that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ?A girl who attacks her assailant with her nails, if she has grown them, or with her teeth, if she has them [? W.S.], is almost non-violent (...). Her violence is the violence of the mouse against the cat.? (Harijan, 08-09-1940). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On the other hand, Gandhi had >>>>> >>>>> ?(...) always held that it is physically impossible to violate a woman against her will. (?) If she cannot meet the assailant?s physical might, her purity will give her the strength to die before he succeeds in violating her. (?) I know that women are capable of throwing away their lives for a much lesser purpose.? (Harijan, 25-08-1940). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The statement in the last paragraph, only cited for its somewhat conflicting character with the first one, would, if further pursued, however lead into an entirely different matter, better not to be touched. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I would be fully satisfied if someone among this learned community could contribute to the mysterious ?a??sarpany?ya, on- or off-list. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanking you, >>>>> >>>>> WS >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje >>>>> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 >>>>> D-99425 Weimar >>>>> Deutschland >>>>> >>>>> Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor >>>>> studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum >>>>> non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, >>>>> sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus >>>>> humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. >>>>> Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 12:32:32 2015 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (dhaval patel) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 15 18:02:32 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] phiTsUtras books Message-ID: Dear all, Would you please guide me to all published / manuscripts / works / theses related to phiTsUtras? I am jotting down the books which I already have 1. siddhAntakaumudI with bAlamanoramA 2. siddhAntakaumudI with tattvabodhinI 3. prauDhamanoramA 4. prakriyAkaumudI with viTThala's commentary 5. zAntanava's phiTsUtra by Kielhorn 6. svarasiddhAntacandrikA of zrInivAsayajva. Any addition in form of link / PDF would be appreciated. -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Anand www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Jun 27 12:46:04 2015 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 15 08:46:04 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0Je+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gcGhpVHNVdHJhcyBib29rcw==?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If I remember correctly, there was an edition of the Phi?s?tras by Professor G. V. Devasthali published by the Centre for Advanced Study in Sanskrit, University of Pune. Madhav Deshpande On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 8:32 AM, dhaval patel wrote: > Dear all, > > Would you please guide me to all published / manuscripts / works / theses > related to phiTsUtras? > > I am jotting down the books which I already have > > 1. siddhAntakaumudI with bAlamanoramA > 2. siddhAntakaumudI with tattvabodhinI > 3. prauDhamanoramA > 4. prakriyAkaumudI with viTThala's commentary > 5. zAntanava's phiTsUtra by Kielhorn > 6. svarasiddhAntacandrikA of zrInivAsayajva. > > Any addition in form of link / PDF would be appreciated. > > > -- > Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S > Collector and District Magistrate, Anand > www.sanskritworld.in > > -- > ??????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? (?.??.) > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "???????????????????" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Sun Jun 28 14:12:57 2015 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 15 09:12:57 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query Message-ID: I turn to the pa??itapari?ad to educate me in what look like technical terms from the science of music. Curiously, in the Y?j?avalkya Sm?ti (3.112?116) there is a passage about how a person proficient in music and singing can attain the highest Brahman. Why this passage is there to begin with is obscure to me. But at verse 113 we have the mention of seven ?g?tik?ni?: Apar?ntaka, Ullopya, Madraka, Prakar?, Auve?aka, Sarobindu, and Uttara Then at 114 it says that these should be sung (probably some kinds of chants: ?g, G?th?, (or ?gg?th?) P??ik?, Dak?avihit?, and Brahmag?tik?. Vi?var?pa has this comment: im?ny apar?ntak?d?ni . . . sapta g?tik?ni g?na??str?d ev?vasey?ni. A hint as to where these come from, but not helpful beyond that. Apar?rka, a bit more helpfully: apar?ntik?dayo bh?rata??strokt? g?taprak?ravi?e?? brahmaj??n?bhy?sahetor gey??. Thank you all for any leads or explanations on this. Patrick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomaskintaert at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 15:27:47 2015 From: thomaskintaert at gmail.com (Thomas Kintaert) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 15 17:27:47 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Patrick, The *g?taka*s are indeed described in Bharata?s N??ya??stra, as well as in Dattila?s Dattilam. A good place to start would be Rowell, Lewis: Form in the ritual theatre music of ancient India. *Musica Asiatica 5* (1988) 140-190. which can be partly read here: https://goo.gl/PDPEkz. It might be noted that the names of two and a half of these *g?taka*s (in the order in which they are treated in the above works, where they are called *madraka*, *apar?ntaka* and *ullopyaka*, and together with other terms related to music and dance) appear on a fragment of the Spitzer manuscript, which has been edited by Prof. Eli Franco ( http://hw.oeaw.ac.at/3301-4) and dated by him to the 3rd cent. CE (Franco, Eli: The Spitzer Manuscript. Report on Work in Progress. In: *Abhidharma and Indian Thought.* Essays in Honor of Professor Doctor Junsho Kato on His Sixtieth Birthday. Tokyo 2000, p. 559). Here is a picture of the fragment. If you would need to know on which page it is published, I could let you know by next week. [image: Inline image 1] Best, Thomas On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > I turn to the pa??itapari?ad to educate me in what look like technical > terms from the science of music. Curiously, in the Y?j?avalkya Sm?ti > (3.112?116) there is a passage about how a person proficient in music and > singing can attain the highest Brahman. Why this passage is there to begin > with is obscure to me. But at verse 113 we have the mention of seven > ?g?tik?ni?: Apar?ntaka, Ullopya, Madraka, Prakar?, Auve?aka, Sarobindu, > and Uttara > > Then at 114 it says that these should be sung (probably some kinds of > chants: ?g, G?th?, (or ?gg?th?) P??ik?, Dak?avihit?, and Brahmag?tik?. > > Vi?var?pa has this comment: im?ny apar?ntak?d?ni . . . sapta g?tik?ni > g?na??str?d ev?vasey?ni. A hint as to where these come from, but not > helpful beyond that. > > Apar?rka, a bit more helpfully: apar?ntik?dayo bh?rata??strokt? > g?taprak?ravi?e?? brahmaj??n?bhy?sahetor gey??. > > Thank you all for any leads or explanations on this. > > > Patrick > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Spitzer_manuscript_fragment.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 15:43:56 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 15 17:43:56 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Patrick, I'm back at my desk, and this is the reference that I was thinking of: @Book{kita-body, title = {The Body of the Musician. An Annotated Translation and Study of the Pi??otpatti-prakara?a of ??rn?gadeva's Sa?g?taratn?kara}, address = {Bonn etc.}, author = {Makoto Kitada}, publisher = {Peter Lang}, year = {2012}, isbn = {9783034303194}, abstract = {The Sang?taratn?kara (?The Ocean of Music?) written by ??rngadeva in the 13th century is the most important theoretical work on Indian classical music. Its prologue, the Pindotpatti-prakarana (?The Section of the Arising of the Human Body?), deals with the Indian science of the human body, i.e. embryology, anatomy, and the Hathayogic heory of Cakras. The sources of this work are found in the classical medical texts (?yurveda) such as Caraka, Su?ruta and V?gbhata, the Hathayogic texts as well as in the encyclopaedic texts (Pur?na). After philologically analyzing the mutual relation and background of these texts, the author demonstrates the reasons why the human body is described in this musicological work. His investigation reveals the Indian mystic thought of body and sound. This study, although an Indological one, is an attempt to answer the universal question what music is, i.e. how music is created in the human body, what the effect of music on the human body is, and what music aims at. The second half of the book consists of a translation of the original text of the Pindotpatti-prakarana, including commentaries, with plenty of annotations.}, contents = {Contents: Sa?g?taratn?kara (SR) and its Pi??otpatti-prakara?a ? ?ivag?t? (?G), the text parallel to the SR?s embryologico-anatomical verses ? The sources of the SR. Common source text of SR and ?G ? Comparison with medical (?yurveda) and non-medical texts ? Anatomical theory of vocal manifestation by Indian ancient musicologists ? Embryology in musicological works.}, } ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pahitatta at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 18:03:47 2015 From: pahitatta at gmail.com (Ales Petrocchi) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 15 19:03:47 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Patrick, you find mentioned the seven ?g?tik?ni? for instance in the Dattilam: approx. verses 160-233. See also the English translation of the Dattilam by Te Nijenhuis p. 420-421. The ?g, G?th? etc. are mentioned in the NATyazAstra. The passage is quoted in: A History of Indian Literature: Scientific and technical literature Di Emmie te Nijenhuis?, p. 7?. Yours, Alessandra. On 28 June 2015 at 15:12, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > I turn to the pa??itapari?ad to educate me in what look like technical > terms from the science of music. Curiously, in the Y?j?avalkya Sm?ti > (3.112?116) there is a passage about how a person proficient in music and > singing can attain the highest Brahman. Why this passage is there to begin > with is obscure to me. But at verse 113 we have the mention of seven > ?g?tik?ni?: Apar?ntaka, Ullopya, Madraka, Prakar?, Auve?aka, Sarobindu, > and Uttara > > Then at 114 it says that these should be sung (probably some kinds of > chants: ?g, G?th?, (or ?gg?th?) P??ik?, Dak?avihit?, and Brahmag?tik?. > > Vi?var?pa has this comment: im?ny apar?ntak?d?ni . . . sapta g?tik?ni > g?na??str?d ev?vasey?ni. A hint as to where these come from, but not > helpful beyond that. > > Apar?rka, a bit more helpfully: apar?ntik?dayo bh?rata??strokt? > g?taprak?ravi?e?? brahmaj??n?bhy?sahetor gey??. > > Thank you all for any leads or explanations on this. > > > Patrick > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 20:12:07 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 15 01:42:07 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query Message-ID: > Curiously, in the Y?j?avalkya Sm?ti (3.112?116) there is a passage about how a person proficient in music and singing can attain the highest Brahman. 1. 'how a person proficient in music and singing can attain the highest Brahman.' can be traced to Chandogyopanishad: ?????????????????????????? ? ?????????????? ?????????????? ? 1-1 ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???????? ??? ?? ? ????????? ?? ??????? ?????? ?? ???????? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ? 1-2 Most of the remaining part of the first chapter too discusses the same aspect. -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 04:14:34 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 15 09:44:34 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query Message-ID: continued from my previous post: 2. Dominik Wajastyk > This study, although an Indological one, is an attempt to answer the universal question what music is, i.e. how music is created in the human body, what the effect of music on the human body is, and what music aims at. This knowledge, of how music is affected by and affects human body, though can be assumed to have been in the background of most of the Vaggeyakaras, it is in Tyagaraja that it finds articulation as part of the text of the lyrics itself: for example, in the kriti 'mokshamu galada' (is there liberation), he says: prANAnala samyOgamu valla praNavanAdamu saptasvaramulai paraga (While the praNavanAda (= the sound of Om) takes the form of the seven musical notes through the combining of prANa =vital 'breath' and anala=the fire (inside the body) ) In fact the pallavi talks about moksha( =attainment of Brahman) through music only. 'mokshamu galadA bhuvilO jeevanmuktulu gAni vAralaku' = is there liberation (attainment of brahman) for those who do not become living-liberated ( through the method of music) is the pallavi (lyric-beginning refrain) of the lyric. He describes the production of music through the different parts of human body in another lyric 's'Obhillusptasvara'. In that he says, "Oh mind, relishingly meditate on the 'beautiful women' in the form of the seven musical notes which glow in nAbhi, hrit, kaNTha, rasanA nAsA and so on " in the pallavi (lyric-beginning refrain). He describes s'iva as music-bodied in his Sanskrit lyric nAdatanumanis'am. Since s'iva is taken as the mythological narrative form of Brahman here, this is another way of saying Brahman is music-bodied. "Spiritual Heritage of Tyagaraja" by V Raghavan https://archive.org/stream/SpiritualHeritageOfThyagarajaByVRaghavan/SpiritualHeritageOfThyagaraja_djvu.txt is one of the references that could be useful in this. -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Mon Jun 29 08:59:25 2015 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 15 08:59:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] job at British Library, South Indian collections Message-ID: Curator, South Indian Collections Salary range is ?31,858 - ?36,087 per annum Full time (36 hours per week) Permanent St Pancras, London Start date on or after 14th September 2015 The British Library?s collections from and relating to South Asia are the most extensive in the world outside the region, and they are among the British Library?s most important resources. This role will focus on the collections from southern India, and will combine elements of collection development, research, cultural engagement, digital and digitisation projects, and international partnerships, all working towards ensuring that the broadest possible audiences can access the South Indian collections held at the British Library. The major languages represented in these collections are Tamil, Telugu, Kannada and Malayalam, and the ideal candidate will have a good knowledge of one or more of these. They will also have a degree-level qualification in a relevant discipline, and a deep interest in the history and cultures of South Asia, and particularly of South India. These will be underpinned by research or employment experience in a research library, museum, academic or other appropriate environment, and by academic study or research. Although not essential, experience of or interest in international partnerships or project management would be an advantage. For further information and to apply, please visit www.bl.uk/careers quoting vacancy ref: COL00206 Closing Date: 13th July 2015 An interview date is to be confirmed https://gs10.globalsuccessor.com/fe/tpl_britishlibrary01.asp?s=4A515F4E5A565B1A&jobid=98626,3449210223&key=107778048&c=87836023613634&pagestamp=seozanwdvwszzdbjmf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 14:02:27 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 15 16:02:27 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] You just need to confirm your billing address. In-Reply-To: <55908d92.045f8c0a.3c95.0e0dSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Sorry, friends, this is a phishing attack. They ususally don't get through to the list, but this did, somehow. Just ignore it, and *don't* log into paypal through their link. If you have already done so, go and change your paypal password *right now* and tell paypal if your account has been tampered with. Dominik On 29 June 2015 at 02:12, PayPal Service wrote: > [image: PayPal] > > Dear member, > > You just need to confirm your billing address. > > If you did not confirm it until 30th of June 2015, Your account will be > deactivated. > Just a reminder: > > - Never share your password with anyone. > - Never share your personal information with any one. > - Use different passwords for each of your online accounts. > - Be sure to include uppercase and lowercase letters, numbers, and > symbols in your password. > > Sincerely, > PayPal > > ?? > > > This email was sent by an automated system, so if you reply, nobody will > see it. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 07:37:31 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 15 09:37:31 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient Syria Message-ID: Fact check: India wasn't the first place *Sanskrit* was recorded ? it was Syria Scroll.in As the Narendra Modi government celebrates *Sanskrit*, a look at the oldest known speakers of the language: the Mitanni people of Syria. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 18:05:31 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 15 23:35:31 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient Syria Message-ID: The article has this sentence: So much so that 3,500 years later, modern Indians would celebrate the language of these ancient pastoral nomads all the way out in Bangkok city. The sentence matches with the earlier part of the article, if 'ancient pastoral nomads' is improved as 'ancient pastoral charioteer horse-trainer-book-writing mercenary hymn-singing hymn-documenting nomads' -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 18:32:09 2015 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 15 00:02:09 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient Syria Message-ID: Good fun because it has these interesting combinations: 1. These charioteers spoke the same language and recited the same hymns that would later on be *complied* into the *Rig Veda* by their comrades who had ventured east. (highlighting mine) and The group that went east and later on *composed* the *Rig Veda *(highlighting mine) Compiled or composed? 2. The group that went east and later on composed the *Rig Veda*, we know, *had better luck in preserving their culture*.(highlighting mine) and While modern-day Hindus have mostly *stopped the worship of these deities *(highlighting mine) preserved or did not preserve? -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 19:19:02 2015 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 15 15:19:02 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient Syria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: George Thompson Date: Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient Syria To: Nagaraj Paturi Dear Prof. Paturi, These 'ancient pastoral nomads' were pre-literate. They didn't write any horse-training books. The horse-training book was written by someone named Kikkuli, and he wrote it in Hittite, not Vedic. In his Hittite horse-training manual there are some clearly pre-Vedic words that refer to horse-training and certain Vedic gods. Kikkuli was transcribing into Hittite the words of these pre-Vedic nomads who taught the Hittites about horse-training. The article that Dominik refers to is a a rather teasing critique of Modi, et al. It is not scholarly, but it gets the facts right for the most part. Its main point is that the OIT theory is not supported by any good evidence. It cites reliable sources like Anthony and the encyclopedia of IE by Mallory and Adams. If you want to consider what Vedicists think about this, see Mayrhofer and Thieme, just as a start. Best wishes, as always, George On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > The article has this sentence: > > So much so that 3,500 years later, modern Indians would celebrate the > language of these ancient pastoral nomads all the way out in Bangkok city. > > The sentence matches with the earlier part of the article, if 'ancient > pastoral nomads' is improved as 'ancient pastoral charioteer > horse-trainer-book-writing mercenary hymn-singing hymn-documenting nomads' > > > -- > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad-500044 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 19:25:15 2015 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 15 15:25:15 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient Syria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: George Thompson Date: Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient Syria To: Nagaraj Paturi Dear Prof. Paturi, These 'ancient pastoral nomads' were pre-literate. They didn't write any horse-training books. The horse-training book was written by someone named Kikkuli, and he wrote it in Hittite, not Vedic. In his Hittite horse-training manual there are some clearly pre-Vedic words that refer to horse-training and certain Vedic gods. Kikkuli was transcribing into Hittite the words of these pre-Vedic nomads who taught the Hittites about horse-training. The article that Dominik refers to is a a rather teasing critique of Modi, et al. It is not scholarly, but it gets the facts right for the most part. Its main point is that the OIT theory is not supported by any good evidence. It cites reliable sources like Anthony and the encyclopedia of IE by Mallory and Adams. If you want to consider what Vedicists think about this, see Mayrhofer and Thieme, just as a start. Best wishes, as always, George On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > The article has this sentence: > > So much so that 3,500 years later, modern Indians would celebrate the > language of these ancient pastoral nomads all the way out in Bangkok city. > > The sentence matches with the earlier part of the article, if 'ancient > pastoral nomads' is improved as 'ancient pastoral charioteer > horse-trainer-book-writing mercenary hymn-singing hymn-documenting nomads' > > > -- > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad-500044 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Tue Jun 30 19:44:27 2015 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 15 12:44:27 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient Syria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0BC6FFC3-5E91-494D-8DBC-7A3662684795@berkeley.edu> Dear George, This brings to mind a question. In the Tamil Sangam texts, the fast gait (gallop, canter?) of a horse is called ?di (Tamil ?ti), always in the context of pulling a chariot. It would appear that people had some familiarity with Sanskrit texts on horse training. It would be interesting (though, of course, unlikely) if the Hittite equivalent of that term appears in Kikkuli?s treatise, as that would suggest origins way back in PIE. Does anyone have any idea whether ?di is used in Sanskrit texts on horses and if so where? I?m not sure when horses first appeared in the Tamil area. Thanks, George > On Jun 30, 2015, at 12:19 PM, George Thompson wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: George Thompson > > Date: Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:16 PM > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient Syria > To: Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Dear Prof. Paturi, > > These 'ancient pastoral nomads' were pre-literate. They didn't write any horse-training books. The horse-training book was written by someone named Kikkuli, and he wrote it in Hittite, not Vedic. In his Hittite horse-training manual there are some clearly pre-Vedic words that refer to horse-training and certain Vedic gods. Kikkuli was transcribing into Hittite the words of these pre-Vedic nomads who taught the Hittites about horse-training. > > The article that Dominik refers to is a a rather teasing critique of Modi, et al. It is not scholarly, but it gets the facts right for the most part. Its main point is that the OIT theory is not supported by any good evidence. It cites reliable sources like Anthony and the encyclopedia of IE by Mallory and Adams. If you want to consider what Vedicists think about this, see Mayrhofer and Thieme, just as a start. > > Best wishes, as always, > > George > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > The article has this sentence: > > So much so that 3,500 years later, modern Indians would celebrate the language of these ancient pastoral nomads all the way out in Bangkok city. > > The sentence matches with the earlier part of the article, if 'ancient pastoral nomads' is improved as 'ancient pastoral charioteer horse-trainer-book-writing mercenary hymn-singing hymn-documenting nomads' > > > -- > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad-500044 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Tue Jun 30 22:41:05 2015 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 15 15:41:05 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient Syria In-Reply-To: <0BC6FFC3-5E91-494D-8DBC-7A3662684795@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <54CD4734-9AAF-4C95-A3F8-6D7D685C3967@earthlink.net> Just a quick note ? We have references in ca?kam literature about training elephants but not about horses. puravi (?????), kutirai (??????), m? (??), kalim? (?????) are the terms used in ca?kam literature to refer to an animal that we now understand as a ?horse.? ?ti (???), pari (???), na?ai (???), vicai (????), k?l iyal (???? ????) are the descriptors that I find with reference to the movement of a horse. More references would enlighten me. Thanks and regards, rajam > On Jun 30, 2015, at 12:44 PM, George Hart wrote: > > Dear George, > > This brings to mind a question. In the Tamil Sangam texts, the fast gait (gallop, canter?) of a horse is called ?di (Tamil ?ti), always in the context of pulling a chariot. It would appear that people had some familiarity with Sanskrit texts on horse training. It would be interesting (though, of course, unlikely) if the Hittite equivalent of that term appears in Kikkuli?s treatise, as that would suggest origins way back in PIE. Does anyone have any idea whether ?di is used in Sanskrit texts on horses and if so where? I?m not sure when horses first appeared in the Tamil area. Thanks, George > >> On Jun 30, 2015, at 12:19 PM, George Thompson > wrote: >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: George Thompson > >> Date: Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:16 PM >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient Syria >> To: Nagaraj Paturi > >> >> >> Dear Prof. Paturi, >> >> These 'ancient pastoral nomads' were pre-literate. They didn't write any horse-training books. The horse-training book was written by someone named Kikkuli, and he wrote it in Hittite, not Vedic. In his Hittite horse-training manual there are some clearly pre-Vedic words that refer to horse-training and certain Vedic gods. Kikkuli was transcribing into Hittite the words of these pre-Vedic nomads who taught the Hittites about horse-training. >> >> The article that Dominik refers to is a a rather teasing critique of Modi, et al. It is not scholarly, but it gets the facts right for the most part. Its main point is that the OIT theory is not supported by any good evidence. It cites reliable sources like Anthony and the encyclopedia of IE by Mallory and Adams. If you want to consider what Vedicists think about this, see Mayrhofer and Thieme, just as a start. >> >> Best wishes, as always, >> >> George >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: >> The article has this sentence: >> >> So much so that 3,500 years later, modern Indians would celebrate the language of these ancient pastoral nomads all the way out in Bangkok city. >> >> The sentence matches with the earlier part of the article, if 'ancient pastoral nomads' is improved as 'ancient pastoral charioteer horse-trainer-book-writing mercenary hymn-singing hymn-documenting nomads' >> >> >> -- >> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi >> Hyderabad-500044 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 22:49:31 2015 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 15 00:49:31 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient Syria In-Reply-To: <54CD4734-9AAF-4C95-A3F8-6D7D685C3967@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Meulenbeld's *History of Indian Medical Literature* has a substantial section on the Sanskrit and Prakrit ?treatises on horses and elephants, for anyone who wants to follow up on this interesting branch of literature. "Trot" is *dh?r?* in Sanskrit. DW -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gok-8 at spro.net Tue Jun 30 22:53:50 2015 From: gok-8 at spro.net (jo) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 15 16:53:50 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sparkling new book on Vietnamese traditional medicine Message-ID: <008f01d0b387$a23b8170$e6b28450$@spro.net> Dear all, I hasten to post this book information FYI. Like ancient Indian and Greek medicine, Chinese and (I'm guessing as I don't have the book yet) also Vietnamese traditional medicine had a humoral basis. This is my excuse for calling it to your attention on this list: _Vietnamese Traditional Medicine: A Social History_, by C. Michele Thompson. NUS Press, 2015. The delightful cover is from a painting specially created for the author by Nguyen The Khang, based on a medical shop in his neighborhood in the 20's and 30's. http://nuspress.nus.edu.sg/products/vietnamese-traditional-medicine?variant= 1245118104 Available via U. Hawaii Press: http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/p-9382-9789971698355.aspx O tempora................. Best wishes, Joanna Kirkpatrick, phD Independent