From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  1 01:39:42 2015
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 15 01:39:42 +0000
Subject: Latest on the Jyotir Math Shankaracharya dispute
Message-ID: <1914095762.17117.1435714782817.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

https://in.news.yahoo.com/court-rejects-vasudevanand-s-claim-to-shankaracharya-s-seat-075606331.html
Given the politics involved, it's sure to be appealed.
Best,
Dean



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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Jul  1 05:19:12 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 15 10:49:12 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient Syria
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eYReeNOdLTme-ZJ6LLtEjUBH0apS+LSVFQDo3f=f=9Mmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eb1ff04fcufhuhVQcsYqSvAP=Qskq6R-szHDjBTohPF7A@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in
Ancient Syria
To: George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com>


Dear Prof. Thompson,

I was trying to see the 'fun' in the title of the thread inside the
article. I brought out what I found.

Its really fun.

Whether modern Indians are celebrating Sanskrit or not, the author of the
piece is celebrating his knowledge that the language was that of some
pastoral nomads living outside the place where the people who have been
attached to that language as their own, have been living for millennia,
nurturing and nourishing it.

Even if this is looked at as a fixation of a tendency originating during
the early enlightenment period, the tendency of getting excited at and
celebrating every discovery contradicting the traditional beliefs, it is
fun that the tendency continues for so long after those days of its origin.

Warm regards as ever,

Nagaraj



On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 12:46 AM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Prof. Paturi,
>
> These 'ancient pastoral nomads' were pre-literate.  They didn't write any
> horse-training books.  The horse-training book was written by someone named
> Kikkuli, and he wrote it in Hittite, not Vedic.  In his Hittite
> horse-training manual there are some clearly pre-Vedic words that refer to
> horse-training and certain Vedic gods.  Kikkuli was transcribing into
> Hittite the words of these pre-Vedic nomads who taught the Hittites about
> horse-training.
>
> The article that Dominik refers to is a a rather teasing critique of Modi,
> et al.  It is not scholarly, but it gets the facts right for the most
> part.  Its main point is that the OIT theory is not supported by any good
> evidence.  It cites reliable sources like Anthony and the encyclopedia of
> IE by Mallory and Adams.  If you want to consider what Vedicists think
> about this, see Mayrhofer and Thieme, just as a start.
>
> Best wishes, as always,
>
> George
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The article has this sentence:
>>
>> So much so that 3,500 years later, modern Indians would celebrate the
>> language of these ancient pastoral nomads all the way out in Bangkok city.
>>
>> The sentence matches with the earlier part of the article, if  'ancient
>> pastoral nomads' is improved as 'ancient pastoral charioteer
>> horse-trainer-book-writing mercenary hymn-singing hymn-documenting nomads'
>>
>>
>> --
>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>> Hyderabad-500044
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>


-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044



-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Wed Jul  1 19:29:34 2015
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 15 15:29:34 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in	Ancient Syria
In-Reply-To: <0BC6FFC3-5E91-494D-8DBC-7A3662684795@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1ztK1HhM_RvL7qK3cB=QH+ufe-f_4EmXZJw3Vj5yu4f9gA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear George

I apologize for my slow response.  I've been dealing with my wife's health
issues [worrisome but not life-threatening].

As far as I can tell ?di is not attested in Vedic.  As for Skt. in general,
I don't have the resources to check right now.   As for horses, they are of
course common in Vedic, but riding horses is relatively rare, at least in
the RV, and when they are yoked, it is often hard to tell whether they are
yoked to chariots or to wagons.

Also, I recently got an email from a stranger who has informed me that the
Mitanni text has some loanwords from Middle Indo-Aryan!

This is why I am not interested in these OIT debates.

George

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:44 PM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:

> Dear George,
>
> This brings to mind a question. In the Tamil Sangam texts, the fast gait
> (gallop, canter?) of a horse is called ?di (Tamil ?ti), always in the
> context of pulling a chariot. It would appear that people had some
> familiarity with Sanskrit texts on horse training.  It would be interesting
> (though, of course, unlikely) if the Hittite equivalent of that term
> appears in Kikkuli?s treatise, as that would suggest origins way back in
> PIE. Does anyone have any idea whether ?di is used in Sanskrit texts on
> horses and if so where? I?m not sure when horses first appeared in the
> Tamil area. Thanks, George
>
> On Jun 30, 2015, at 12:19 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in
> Ancient Syria
> To: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>
>
> Dear Prof. Paturi,
>
> These 'ancient pastoral nomads' were pre-literate.  They didn't write any
> horse-training books.  The horse-training book was written by someone named
> Kikkuli, and he wrote it in Hittite, not Vedic.  In his Hittite
> horse-training manual there are some clearly pre-Vedic words that refer to
> horse-training and certain Vedic gods.  Kikkuli was transcribing into
> Hittite the words of these pre-Vedic nomads who taught the Hittites about
> horse-training.
>
> The article that Dominik refers to is a a rather teasing critique of Modi,
> et al.  It is not scholarly, but it gets the facts right for the most
> part.  Its main point is that the OIT theory is not supported by any good
> evidence.  It cites reliable sources like Anthony and the encyclopedia of
> IE by Mallory and Adams.  If you want to consider what Vedicists think
> about this, see Mayrhofer and Thieme, just as a start.
>
> Best wishes, as always,
>
> George
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The article has this sentence:
>>
>> So much so that 3,500 years later, modern Indians would celebrate the
>> language of these ancient pastoral nomads all the way out in Bangkok city.
>>
>> The sentence matches with the earlier part of the article, if  'ancient
>> pastoral nomads' is improved as 'ancient pastoral charioteer
>> horse-trainer-book-writing mercenary hymn-singing hymn-documenting nomads'
>>
>>
>> --
>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>> Hyderabad-500044
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Thu Jul  2 16:33:10 2015
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 15 16:33:10 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] article request
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037522D8A@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

Dear friends,

I would be most grateful for two articles from the third vol. of M?langes chinois et bouddhiques (1934):

L. de la Vall?e Poussin, Note sur I'alayavijnana. Melanges chinois et bouddhiques 3:145?68.
Lamotte, Etienne, trans. 1934. L'Alayavijnana (Le receptacle) dans le Mahayana-samgraha. Melanges chinois et bouddhiques 3:169?255.

with thanks in advance,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________



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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Thu Jul  2 17:33:13 2015
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 15 17:33:13 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] article request
In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037522D8A@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037522DC3@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

Courtesy of David Reigle - to whom thanks - I now have the articles.
So no need for further interventions.

best to all,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________



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From p.balcerowicz at uw.edu.pl  Thu Jul  2 17:02:28 2015
From: p.balcerowicz at uw.edu.pl (Piotr Balcerowicz)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 15 19:02:28 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] latest AI report on India
Message-ID: <1309456890.53452.1435856548059.JavaMail.root@zp1.poczta.uw.edu.pl>

Dear Colleagues,

Even though the following does not rise questions concerning the past of India, in a way it is relevant to Indological research as one of background factors. 
Here?s a link to a highly interesting discussion on serious human rights violations, crimes perpetrated by the Indian armed forces and their impunity in the Indian-administered state of Jammu & Kashmir:
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2015/07/kashmir-human-rights-abuse-150701222455840.html
(emblematic is the Hindutva-saffron T-shirt not to be missed...).

The background for this discussion is the recent report by Amnesty International on human rights violations in Kashmir:
https://www.amnesty.org.in/show/news/accountability-still-missing-for-human-rights-violations-in-jammu-kashmir/

The full text of the report:
https://www.amnesty.org.in/images/uploads/articles/Kashmir_Report_Web_version_%281%29.pdf

Strange as it may seem, most Indologists are not aware that India-administered part of the state of Jammu & Kashmir is the most militarized place in the world with the population of approx. 12 million people and approx. 750,000 - 850,000 armed forces, even though such heavy military presence has no real strategic justification. According to conservative estimates approx. 70,000 people were killed there at the hands of the Indian army (other sources put the figure of 100,000 civilians). More than 7,000 mass graves of civilians have been discovered in recent years, in only five districts (out of a total of 25 districts -- no such searches have so far been conducted in the other districts; one of the earlier reports: http://www.kashmirprocess.org/reports/graves/toc .html)). There are at least 8,000 documented abductions and killings of civilians by Indian armed forces. Lawyers in Kashmir have reported crimes in more than 15,000 cases of alledged crimes committed by the Indian armed forces, but all such police investigations and court proceedings have been consistently blocked by the Indian authorities. Numerous inverviews with Kashmiris conducted on the spot reveal that virtually within every Kashmiri family there is someone who has become a victim of repressions and torture. No even a single case judicial proceedings has been been brought to an end (except for two cases before military courts, but they do not dislose any further information about the actual outcome), which is absolutely shocking in a country that aspires to be governed by law. That also calls into question the myth of Indian democracy.
Information on the crimes and human rights violations in Kashmir very rarely reach the public, and even Indologists are barely aware of not only the scale of these crimes, but even of their existence. These appalling crimes and the scale of human rights violations is something which is quite difficult to ignore, also for Indologists. Dealing with South Asia and doing research on Indian past should not make Indologists immune to such news concerning Indian modernity, who should be critical in such cases. That is also a part of India we do research on, unfortunately. Unbiased criticism of India?s policies is by definition constructive and is in the best interest of India and its citizens, too. 

With best regards,
Piotr Balcerowicz
--------------------------------
www.orient.uw.edu.pl/balcerowicz





From gthomgt at gmail.com  Thu Jul  2 21:43:47 2015
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 15 17:43:47 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient Syria
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eb1ff04fcufhuhVQcsYqSvAP=Qskq6R-szHDjBTohPF7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zvkNcOybugACPQaC5i3Vqv0gUe8tGF01i+_0_j0J4N+wg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Nagaraj,

I apologize for misreading your message,  I have been dealing with family
issues, and so I have not been very attentive to this discussion  Thank you
for your patience,

George

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 1:19 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in
> Ancient Syria
> To: George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com>
>
>
> Dear Prof. Thompson,
>
> I was trying to see the 'fun' in the title of the thread inside the
> article. I brought out what I found.
>
> Its really fun.
>
> Whether modern Indians are celebrating Sanskrit or not, the author of the
> piece is celebrating his knowledge that the language was that of some
> pastoral nomads living outside the place where the people who have been
> attached to that language as their own, have been living for millennia,
> nurturing and nourishing it.
>
> Even if this is looked at as a fixation of a tendency originating during
> the early enlightenment period, the tendency of getting excited at and
> celebrating every discovery contradicting the traditional beliefs, it is
> fun that the tendency continues for so long after those days of its origin.
>
> Warm regards as ever,
>
> Nagaraj
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 12:46 AM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Prof. Paturi,
>>
>> These 'ancient pastoral nomads' were pre-literate.  They didn't write any
>> horse-training books.  The horse-training book was written by someone named
>> Kikkuli, and he wrote it in Hittite, not Vedic.  In his Hittite
>> horse-training manual there are some clearly pre-Vedic words that refer to
>> horse-training and certain Vedic gods.  Kikkuli was transcribing into
>> Hittite the words of these pre-Vedic nomads who taught the Hittites about
>> horse-training.
>>
>> The article that Dominik refers to is a a rather teasing critique of
>> Modi, et al.  It is not scholarly, but it gets the facts right for the most
>> part.  Its main point is that the OIT theory is not supported by any good
>> evidence.  It cites reliable sources like Anthony and the encyclopedia of
>> IE by Mallory and Adams.  If you want to consider what Vedicists think
>> about this, see Mayrhofer and Thieme, just as a start.
>>
>> Best wishes, as always,
>>
>> George
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The article has this sentence:
>>>
>>> So much so that 3,500 years later, modern Indians would celebrate the
>>> language of these ancient pastoral nomads all the way out in Bangkok city.
>>>
>>> The sentence matches with the earlier part of the article, if  'ancient
>>> pastoral nomads' is improved as 'ancient pastoral charioteer
>>> horse-trainer-book-writing mercenary hymn-singing hymn-documenting nomads'
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>>> Hyderabad-500044
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
>
>
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Fri Jul  3 03:09:22 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 15 08:39:22 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fun media piece about the Mitanni: Sanskrit in Ancient
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebbhYzhqOfC6HHFZsrAu1WGArDsiRqxhVBDje+DAHaSRg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Prof. George Thompson for your understanding.

Sorry about your wife's health condition. I wish her a speedy recovery.

I pray to Vedamata to give you strength to handle the situation.

Warm regards,

Nagaraj

-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de  Fri Jul  3 15:04:27 2015
From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 15 15:04:27 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #467
Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94BA36573F@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de>


GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection:


Sanskrit:

Mammata: Sabdavyaparavicara
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#MamSabdvy



Pali:

Vibhanga: PTS/Dhammakaya edition, annotated and plain text
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#Vibhang



__________________________________________________________________________

"GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement")

GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages:

http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm





From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Jul  3 15:11:33 2015
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 15 11:11:33 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #467
In-Reply-To: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94BA36573F@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdBax-zC01DBieOKS-DojMF3pzi4DmpsOVjZkWyxiWYAw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Reinhold,

     The header of the file for ?abdavy?p?ravic?ra reads:

  Mammata: Sabdavyaparavicara
Based on the ed. by Mangesh Ramkrishna Telang: Abhidha?vr?ttima?trika? of
Mukula Bhatta and S?abdavya?pa?ravica?ra of Ra?ja?naka Mahimabhat?t?a,
Bombay : Nirnaya Sagar Press, 1916.

Is there a dispute over authorship of this text.  The header suggests that
the edition of Mamma?a's ?abdavy?p?ravic?ra is based on the edition of
?abdavy?p?ravic?ra of R?j?naka Mahimabha??a.  I am wondering if there is
some error involved in this reference.

Madhav

On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Gruenendahl, Reinhold <
gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:

>
> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its
> collection:
>
>
> Sanskrit:
>
> Mammata: Sabdavyaparavicara
> http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#MamSabdvy
>
>
>
> Pali:
>
> Vibhanga: PTS/Dhammakaya edition, annotated and plain text
> http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#Vibhang
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________________
>
> "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download
> sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission
> statement")
>
> GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages:
>
> http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com  Fri Jul  3 16:18:04 2015
From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 15 21:48:04 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] article request-Two inscriptions of the Rathoda	Bharamalla
Message-ID: <CAK2tbYyshW3+r+0XKmVNKe1QkCtQdb_+JG6gR3A=eCz66t509A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List members
I need 'Two inscriptions of the Rathoda Bharamalla, Sam 1599/K.M. Bhadri.
Studies in Indian Epigraphy : Journal of the Epigraphical Society of India
vOL- VII'
I would be grateful if anyone shares the pdf of the same.
regards
Rupali Mokashi
http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sat Jul  4 13:26:42 2015
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 15 13:26:42 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] request for Russian pdf
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037523033@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

Dear colleagues,

Although Vasili'ev's ???????, ??? ???????, ??????? ? ??????????
seems to be available in pdf from several Russian sites, all that I
have found so far require some sort of pre-inscription and/or payment,
and because my Russian is rudimentary, I am wary of using such sites for
download.

I would be most grateful, therefore, to whomever might be able to
send me a pdf of the work in question.

with thanks and best regards,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________



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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sat Jul  4 13:27:59 2015
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 15 13:27:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] request for Russian pdf
In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037523033@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037523048@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

Please note that I am only interested in obtaining the original Russian,
not the German or French translations.

thanks,

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________



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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sat Jul  4 20:53:03 2015
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 15 20:53:03 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] request for Russian pdf
In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037523033@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037523117@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

Many thanks to Drs. Tatania Oranskaia and Jan Filipsky for graciously responding to my request!

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________



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From zysk at hum.ku.dk  Sun Jul  5 14:20:13 2015
From: zysk at hum.ku.dk (Kenneth Gregory Zysk)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 15 14:20:13 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a verse
In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037523048@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F70162DAAE@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>

Dear List,

I should appreciate help with this verse (Bhavi?yapur??a 1.5.89):

kar?l?k?taya? kar?? nabha??abd?s tu sa?sthit??/

vahanti vikasatk?ntihemaratnavibh??a?am//

With best wishes,
Ken




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From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com  Mon Jul  6 10:03:42 2015
From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 15 12:03:42 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
Message-ID: <CAMOCTf9q5O4N8w3YfCPiN-G6f+f46drPkJw4=mz2XQTZu4pvMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Indologist-friends,

Maybe someone can advice me about secondary literature on the use and
incorporation of tribal/local myths into Puranic (and/or Tantric) mythology
as "Hindu-Brahmanic" 's tool for the absorption of
local/tribal traditions with a specific political purpose.

Best,
Paolo

-- 
Paolo E. Rosati
Oriental Archaeologist
PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa
Section: South Asian Studies
Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
'Sapienza' University of Rome
paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it
paoloe.rosati at gmail.com
Mobile: (+39) 3387383472
Skype: paoloe.rosati


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Mon Jul  6 10:06:24 2015
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 15 10:06:24 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAMOCTf9q5O4N8w3YfCPiN-G6f+f46drPkJw4=mz2XQTZu4pvMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037523370@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

Dear Mr. Rosati,

Ronald Davidson's Indian Esoteric Buddhist (Columbia University Press) addresses aspects of the
issues that concern you, though focusing upon the Buddhist context.

with best wishes,

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________


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From jknutson at hawaii.edu  Mon Jul  6 10:25:54 2015
From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 15 15:55:54 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAMOCTf9q5O4N8w3YfCPiN-G6f+f46drPkJw4=mz2XQTZu4pvMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAiVBEUF=+9HGf7mAVQwFFyRHz3Z43s+mZD8c6VN0+5GA1ioBg@mail.gmail.com>

Kunal Chakrabarti's: 'Religious Process: The Pur??as and the Making of a
Regional Tradition' (OUP, 2001) is the best in depth account of this kind
of phenomenon that I have encountered. It is about Bengal Pur??as but
applies widely to other contexts.

On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 3:33 PM, Paolo Eugenio Rosati <
paoloe.rosati at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Indologist-friends,
>
> Maybe someone can advice me about secondary literature on the use and
> incorporation of tribal/local myths into Puranic (and/or Tantric) mythology
> as "Hindu-Brahmanic" 's tool for the absorption of
> local/tribal traditions with a specific political purpose.
>
> Best,
> Paolo
>
> --
> Paolo E. Rosati
> Oriental Archaeologist
> PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa
> Section: South Asian Studies
> Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
> 'Sapienza' University of Rome
> paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it
> paoloe.rosati at gmail.com
> Mobile: (+39) 3387383472
> Skype: paoloe.rosati
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific
Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at M?noa
452A Spalding


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From LubinT at wlu.edu  Mon Jul  6 13:10:29 2015
From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 15 13:10:29 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAMOCTf9q5O4N8w3YfCPiN-G6f+f46drPkJw4=mz2XQTZu4pvMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D1BFF609.1E48C%lubint@wlu.edu>

On this topic, I particularly recommend this rich collection of studies:

Eschmann, Anncharlott, Hermann Kulke, and Gaya Charan Tripathi, eds. 1978. The Cult of Jagannath and the Regional Tradition of Orissa, South Asian Studies, no. VIII, S. Asia Institute, Heidelberg University. Delhi: Manohar.

Best,

Timothy Lubin
Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, Virginia 24450

http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint
http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
https://twitter.com/TimothyLubin

From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of Paolo Eugenio Rosati <paoloe.rosati at gmail.com<mailto:paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>>
Date: Monday, July 6, 2015 at 6:03 AM
To: "indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>" <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes

Dear Indologist-friends,

Maybe someone can advice me about secondary literature on the use and incorporation of tribal/local myths into Puranic (and/or Tantric) mythology as "Hindu-Brahmanic" 's tool for the absorption of local/tribal traditions with a specific political purpose.

Best,
Paolo

--
Paolo E. Rosati
Oriental Archaeologist
PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa
Section: South Asian Studies
Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
'Sapienza' University of Rome
paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it<mailto:paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it>
paoloe.rosati at gmail.com<mailto:paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>
Mobile: (+39) 3387383472
Skype: paoloe.rosati


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Mon Jul  6 20:10:39 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 01:40:39 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eaqZ1E3=OY4J-VDm1DbWUo+PQY-Ac4sn9vtfrxBFpSLuw@mail.gmail.com>

secondary literature on the use and
incorporation of tribal/local myths into Puranic (and/or Tantric) mythology

without the outlook of

as "Hindu-Brahmanic" 's tool for the absorption of
local/tribal traditions with a specific political purpose.

Can be in big number.

But the title of the post brings emphasis to

as "Hindu-Brahmanic" 's tool for the absorption of
local/tribal traditions with a specific political purpose.

Attributing motives particularly political to cultural developments
such as entry/diffusion of tribal/local myths into Puranic (and/or
Tantric) mythology is typical of Marxist historiography.

Right from D D Kosambi through D P Chatopadhyaya, many belonging to
this school published a lot on these lines.





-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 02:46:23 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 08:16:23 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eaYtFuQS6TLSdT3VVcyHTpmXUWKN0wuVh+UQgqgZE18hQ@mail.gmail.com>

The chapter
 " III. AT THE CROSSROADS : A STUDY OF MOTHER-GODDESS CULT SITES"
in D D Kosambi's

Myth and Reality has this approach.

The book is available for download at

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CC8QFjADahUKEwjXtenj_MfGAhXBJKYKHRkrD6I&url=http%3A%2F%2Fplaypen.meraka.csir.co.za%2F~acdc%2Feducation%2FDr_Anvind_Gupa%2FLearners_Library_7_March_2007%2FResources%2Fbooks%2Fmythandreality.pdf&ei=pzmbVZfGF8HJmAWZ1ryQCg&usg=AFQjCNFkklCAseXXtuE5_OUf9JL6KBZu3Q

Rise of a Folk God : Vitthal of Pandharpur

by

Ramchandra Chintaman Dhere

Oxford University Press

is there in googlebooks.

-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Tue Jul  7 06:08:17 2015
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 08:08:17 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eaYtFuQS6TLSdT3VVcyHTpmXUWKN0wuVh+UQgqgZE18hQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEgrCzA38c8mxRu=s4fBSnPGWREjuxKwox2k3hsRPtEHD4ttOQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Prof. Paturi,

Scores of publications on the processes related to Sanskritization. It
would seem odd to designate the authors (such as M. N. Srinivas, Milton
Singer, Yogendra Singh) as Marxists.

The bibliography on Sanskritization /'Hinduization'/ 'Brahmanization' [as
of 2006] at:

http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint/texts/sktztn-bib.htm

Best,

Artur Karp

2015-07-07 4:46 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:

> The chapter
>  " III. AT THE CROSSROADS : A STUDY OF MOTHER-GODDESS CULT SITES"
> in D D Kosambi's
>
> Myth and Reality has this approach.
>
> The book is available for download at
>
>
> http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CC8QFjADahUKEwjXtenj_MfGAhXBJKYKHRkrD6I&url=http%3A%2F%2Fplaypen.meraka.csir.co.za%2F~acdc%2Feducation%2FDr_Anvind_Gupa%2FLearners_Library_7_March_2007%2FResources%2Fbooks%2Fmythandreality.pdf&ei=pzmbVZfGF8HJmAWZ1ryQCg&usg=AFQjCNFkklCAseXXtuE5_OUf9JL6KBZu3Q
>
> Rise of a Folk God : Vitthal of Pandharpur
>
> by
>
> Ramchandra Chintaman Dhere
>
> Oxford University Press
>
> is there in googlebooks.
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au  Tue Jul  7 06:26:03 2015
From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 06:26:03 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tigers and Goats: A quick report on the World Sanskrit Conference, Bangkok 2015
Message-ID: <HK2PR06MB1012914E93C71DB19983A3DBAE920@HK2PR06MB1012.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Tigers and Goats

A quick report on the World Sanskrit Conference, Bangkok 2015

McComas Taylor

Western Marxist Orientalist scholars are chewing up Sanskrit as a tiger would devour a goat, digesting what is needed and excreting the remains. So said well-known Indian fire-brand Rajiv Malhotra at the opening of the 16th World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok on 28 June 2015. Many of the 600 or so attendees were also surprised to learn that international scholarship on Sanskrit is fundamentally perverted by the ideas of Giambattista Vico (1688-1744).  The world is neatly divided into secular leftist 'outsiders' (Westerners and many Indians who have been coopted by the system) who regard Sanskrit as dead, oppressive and political, and 'insiders' for whom Sanskrit as alive, liberating and sacred.

The conference, which received a very substantial subsidy from the Indian government, was officially opened by HRH Princess Maha Chakri Sirishorn, herself a student of Sanskrit. Held in the glitzy Renaissance Hotel over for five days, papers began at 8am and ran until 6pm, but there were plenty of good meals and cultural entertainment to leaven the scholarly dough.

My colleague Prof Elizabeth Rohlman from the University of Calgary and I co-convened the first ever independent panel on pura?as (foundational texts of Hindu mythology), which produced excellent results. There is a growing awareness that the pura?as represent a gold-mine of understudied texts (note the exploitative 'outsider' turn of phrase here).

As is usual with these mega-events, there was a full spectrum of papers and conversations. The presentations ranged from paradigm-changing to time-wasting. I jotted down eight Really Good Ideas in the front of my notebook, which constitutes an overall success.

Among the many high points were the formal disputation in Sanskrit by tradition scholars on the significance of sabda - 'word' or 'sound', and a very lively Sanskrit poetry reading session, including poems in Haiku format and a humorous take on mobile phones. Spoken Sanskrit was everywhere-it is always a pleasure to it used as a lingua franca among scholars who have no other language in common, as has been the case for the last two or three millennia.

The recurrent problem with many papers is that scholars consistently fail to place their work in the broader theoretical or academic context. Papers either consist of data with no theory, theory with no data and those with neither (i.e. story-telling). Sometimes it seemed as if no one read anyone else's work. Of course we all love to chase down our own rabbit-holes, but if we can't explain why our work is important or interesting, or how it contributes to the big picture, one wonders why it is presented at all.

It was sad to see a changing of the guard-many of the grand old scholars of Sanskrit studies are too old or unwell to travel, but on the plus side, a pleasing number of young scholars are coming up the ranks.

There was general excitement and widespread approval when at the final session it was announced that after the 17th conference in Vancouver in 2018, the 18th World Sanskrit Conference will be held in Canberra in 2021.

Had he attended the rest of the conference, Mr Malhotra would have been highly displeased: there is a great deal of excellent scholarship going on around the world. He would also have been surprised to learn that many of us are vegetarians and that we don't eat goats of any description.


________________________________
McComas Taylor, Associate Professor and Head
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies, CHL, CAP
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
________________________________
Enrol now for the Spoken Sanskrit Summer School 2016: https://sites.google.com/site/spokensanskrit16/



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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 07:03:47 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 12:33:47 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eb4UnUqFkzx5t6hzKz2VR2hV8ZhrsLhTA8ZB6QqUTeRrA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Prof. Artur Karp,

1. Sanskritization is a process in the direction  just  opposite to the one
being brought for direction by the thread initiator. It is the
puranic/Hindu/Brahmanic side which does the absorption of local/tribal
traditions in the process brought for discussion. In Sanskritization, the
non-Sanskritic communities emulate the rituals and practices of the
Sanskritic communities.

2. Emulation or imitation of the class by the non-class is a process well
recognized and well studied in the inductive empirical discipline of
sociology. These studies are different from deductive Marxist studies.

3. I did not name Professors MN Srinivas, Milton Singer etc. because the
issues they were handling are the ones such as Sanskritization that are not
relevant in the context of the present thread.

4. Disciplines of Sociology and Anthropology have many explanations other
than the political motives on the part of the adopter of the other
culture, offered for the intercultural processes such as the one being
discussed by the thread initiator.

5. The thread initiator is justified in choosing one of the explanations
for his study. It was with the considerations of propriety that I wanted to
focus only on that approach and share my understanding that many books from
the Marxist school of scholarship should be useful for the purpose of the
thread initiator.

Thanks for your patience.

Warm regards,

Nagaraj

-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 07:11:50 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 12:41:50 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebXdWG2Ek8HexhfBtSRecXToXdLzdOs4NJNApsZ_GFNvQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for the typo:

1. Sanskritization is a process in the direction  just  opposite to the one
being brought for *direction* by the thread initiator.
discussion not direction

1. Sanskritization is a process in the direction  just  opposite to the one
being brought for *discussion *by the thread initiator.
-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Tue Jul  7 07:43:47 2015
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 09:43:47 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eb4UnUqFkzx5t6hzKz2VR2hV8ZhrsLhTA8ZB6QqUTeRrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEgrCzA8wBwM-+7LPKgXa+0TVgK40Vm1QdmxjSdW7=h257upxg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Prof. Paturi,

> Emulation or imitation of the class by the non-class...

Right, in the early stages of the theory's development.

By now it's the theory of social/cultural exchange. Active, bidirectional
exchange involving the "class" and the "non-class", emulations and
incorporations.

Dialogue.

Best,

Artur Karp


2015-07-07 9:03 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:

> Dear Prof. Artur Karp,
>
> 1. Sanskritization is a process in the direction  just  opposite to the
> one being brought for direction by the thread initiator. It is the
> puranic/Hindu/Brahmanic side which does the absorption of local/tribal
> traditions in the process brought for discussion. In Sanskritization, the
> non-Sanskritic communities emulate the rituals and practices of the
> Sanskritic communities.
>
> 2. Emulation or imitation of the class by the non-class is a process well
> recognized and well studied in the inductive empirical discipline of
> sociology. These studies are different from deductive Marxist studies.
>
> 3. I did not name Professors MN Srinivas, Milton Singer etc. because the
> issues they were handling are the ones such as Sanskritization that are not
> relevant in the context of the present thread.
>
> 4. Disciplines of Sociology and Anthropology have many explanations other
> than the political motives on the part of the adopter of the other
> culture, offered for the intercultural processes such as the one being
> discussed by the thread initiator.
>
> 5. The thread initiator is justified in choosing one of the explanations
> for his study. It was with the considerations of propriety that I wanted to
> focus only on that approach and share my understanding that many books from
> the Marxist school of scholarship should be useful for the purpose of the
> thread initiator.
>
> Thanks for your patience.
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Nagaraj
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 07:46:40 2015
From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 09:46:40 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAEgrCzA8wBwM-+7LPKgXa+0TVgK40Vm1QdmxjSdW7=h257upxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMOCTf-FACiwK9FXR4Q2oO9yDZ2Me08DrdKg+M=56KAkW1m0MQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear professor Paturi,
Dear professor Karp,
Dear Indology-list's friends,

First of all I want to thanks Matthew Kapstein, Jesse Knutson and Tim Lubin
for the quick and kind answers to my "general" question.

Then I would be a bit more accurate regarding my research and my question.
I'm investigating on the Kamakhya's cult (Assam), its origins and
cross-cultural roots, so that I would focus on the relations between Hindu
rulers and hill tribes. For example the Brahmanic manipulation of the
Daksha's mythology - with the inclusion (only in north-eastern puranas,
Kalika, Devibhagavata, and later Mahabhagavata and Brhaddarmapurana) of the
Sati's corpse dismemberment -, it can be considered as a tool to include
the yoni symbol in the Hindu cultural folds.
Why it happened? I believe for politica purposes, the need of the new Hindu
rulers of the tribal support to maintain the power (this kind of process
was already studied in other regions as Orissa). This is also supported by
many passages of Kalikapurana.

Regarding the process of sanskritisation/brahmanisation, obviously in my
opinion is widely connected with the Hindu political needs, but... in the
Kamakhya case-study are we in front of a sanskritised goddess? Many
elements should let me suppose it, but comparing Kamakhya with other local
goddesses, some of her devotional elements let me amazed. But two elements
more than other amazed me: 1) She was not anthropomorphised during the
centuries; 2) In the ancient time also inside the inner chamber were
practiced blood rituals.
So that are we sure that Kamahya is a sanskritised goddess? Or should we
consider the reverse process? Doesn't seem that were the Hindus to emulate
the tribal-men incorporating tribal worship elements?

I wish that I have been a bit more clear and that I haven't done more
confusion, and please consider my email as a quick-simplification of the
processes that I'm researching.

Best wishes,
Paolo


On 7 July 2015 at 09:43, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:

> Dear Prof. Paturi,
>
> > Emulation or imitation of the class by the non-class...
>
> Right, in the early stages of the theory's development.
>
> By now it's the theory of social/cultural exchange. Active, bidirectional
> exchange involving the "class" and the "non-class", emulations and
> incorporations.
>
> Dialogue.
>
> Best,
>
> Artur Karp
>
>
> 2015-07-07 9:03 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:
>
>> Dear Prof. Artur Karp,
>>
>> 1. Sanskritization is a process in the direction  just  opposite to the
>> one being brought for direction by the thread initiator. It is the
>> puranic/Hindu/Brahmanic side which does the absorption of local/tribal
>> traditions in the process brought for discussion. In Sanskritization, the
>> non-Sanskritic communities emulate the rituals and practices of the
>> Sanskritic communities.
>>
>> 2. Emulation or imitation of the class by the non-class is a process well
>> recognized and well studied in the inductive empirical discipline of
>> sociology. These studies are different from deductive Marxist studies.
>>
>> 3. I did not name Professors MN Srinivas, Milton Singer etc. because the
>> issues they were handling are the ones such as Sanskritization that are not
>> relevant in the context of the present thread.
>>
>> 4. Disciplines of Sociology and Anthropology have many explanations other
>> than the political motives on the part of the adopter of the other
>> culture, offered for the intercultural processes such as the one being
>> discussed by the thread initiator.
>>
>> 5. The thread initiator is justified in choosing one of the explanations
>> for his study. It was with the considerations of propriety that I wanted to
>> focus only on that approach and share my understanding that many books from
>> the Marxist school of scholarship should be useful for the purpose of the
>> thread initiator.
>>
>> Thanks for your patience.
>>
>> Warm regards,
>>
>> Nagaraj
>>
>> --
>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>> Hyderabad-500044
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Paolo E. Rosati
Oriental Archaeologist
PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa
Section: South Asian Studies
Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
'Sapienza' University of Rome
paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it
paoloe.rosati at gmail.com
Mobile: (+39) 3387383472
Skype: paoloe.rosati


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 09:31:03 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 15:01:03 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eZjVUtnA7Ry52kGfyQTLBsm3ebYz3500VykQzcW1SCt_w@mail.gmail.com>

>By now it's the theory of social/cultural exchange. Active, bidirectional
exchange involving the "class" and the "non-class", emulations and
incorporations.

Why by now? When processes such as Sanskritization were being discussed,
the opposite direction processes were also being discussed just along side.
So the bidirectional view was always there. But the explanations such as
Sanskritization were focussed on one of the directions within the
bidirectional complex.

But what probably are new are approaches such as "third cultures"  (Useem,
John, Ruth Hill Useem, and John Donoghue (1963). "Men in the Middle of the
Third Culture: The Roles of American and Non-Western People in
Cross-Cultural Administration," *Human Organization ), (*Useem, John
(1971). "The Study of Cultures." Originally published in* Sociological
Focus; *reprinted in *Studies of Third Cultures: A Continuing Series, *No.
6. East Lansing: Institute for International Studies in Education, Michigan
State University, no date.*)*

This approach is being looked at as "  a radical democratic political
theory which goes beyond both traditional liberalism and Marxism" (*The
Concept of "Third Cultures" in Intercultural Ethics *- Richard Evanoff
, *Eubios
Journal of Asian and International Bioethics* 10 (2000), 126-129. )

Can we see puranic/agamic etc. as "third cultures" emerging as a result of
intercultural interactions between Vedic and folk , Vedic and tribal etc. ?





-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Tue Jul  7 09:25:38 2015
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 11:25:38 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAMOCTf-FACiwK9FXR4Q2oO9yDZ2Me08DrdKg+M=56KAkW1m0MQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEgrCzBYNDStjhjD0kqN-kAGk9M+oUBuqmkYiAAD7t=CgS80rw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Paolo,

> So that are we sure that Kamahya is a sanskritised goddess? Or should we
consider the reverse process? Doesn't seem that were the Hindus to emulate
the tribal-men incorporating tribal worship elements?

To my mind, both.

A perfect example of a dialogic situation, whatever the motivation behind
the move to set up a new, structurally enriched place of worship and a
newly conceived object of veneration.

Best,

Artur


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From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 10:20:57 2015
From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 12:20:57 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAEgrCzBYNDStjhjD0kqN-kAGk9M+oUBuqmkYiAAD7t=CgS80rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMOCTf9WsRa4MFKP6YusUDMk=eS6UrH9o54eLaSneguo4B9s9Q@mail.gmail.com>

I complitely agree.
But why "we" talk about "sanskritisation" phenomena if a goddess and her
devotional cult are dominated by tribal elements? I would like to describe
this goddesses as "tribalised", maybe because they represent a manipulation
of the "mainstream" Hindu Devi, to whom are overimposed tribal elements.

If the sanskritisation (or brahmanisation) process can be described as a
vertical axis where are different degrees of sanskritisation; maybe we
could describe this axis with two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other
"tribalisation"... obviously the dialectic between cultures bring to hybrid
phenomenon, but in my opinion the Hindu-Assamese culture is widely
dominated by tribal traditions, and this probably depend by ancient politic
needs.

Best,
Paolo

P.S.: Maybe someone has a pdf copy of Kunal Chakrabarti "Religious
Processes: The Puranas and the Making of a Regional Tradition" (2001).


On 7 July 2015 at 11:25, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:

> Dear Paolo,
>
> > So that are we sure that Kamahya is a sanskritised goddess? Or should we
> consider the reverse process? Doesn't seem that were the Hindus to emulate
> the tribal-men incorporating tribal worship elements?
>
> To my mind, both.
>
> A perfect example of a dialogic situation, whatever the motivation behind
> the move to set up a new, structurally enriched place of worship and a
> newly conceived object of veneration.
>
> Best,
>
> Artur
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Paolo E. Rosati
Oriental Archaeologist
PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa
Section: South Asian Studies
Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
'Sapienza' University of Rome
paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it
paoloe.rosati at gmail.com
Mobile: (+39) 3387383472
Skype: paoloe.rosati


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Tue Jul  7 12:38:21 2015
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 14:38:21 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAMOCTf9WsRa4MFKP6YusUDMk=eS6UrH9o54eLaSneguo4B9s9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEgrCzBRzq-c+6qzAQUc9aHDPEo2Y_RWBHC5KEiTnO4rsd069Q@mail.gmail.com>

> two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation".

The question is: who functions in the role of priests at Kamakhya Devi?

Priests of local tribal cults?

If not, I would rather see there not "tribalization", but rather
"controlled Sanskritization" of tribal cultural elements, undertaken not by
the tribals, but by the local representatives of Sanskritic culture.
Motivated, as you have noticed, by the political need to communicate on one
hand with the local population, on the other - with the broader network of
sub-continental cult/pilgrimage centers.

Artur K.

2015-07-07 12:20 GMT+02:00 Paolo Eugenio Rosati <paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>:

> I complitely agree.
> But why "we" talk about "sanskritisation" phenomena if a goddess and her
> devotional cult are dominated by tribal elements? I would like to describe
> this goddesses as "tribalised", maybe because they represent a manipulation
> of the "mainstream" Hindu Devi, to whom are overimposed tribal elements.
>
> If the sanskritisation (or brahmanisation) process can be described as a
> vertical axis where are different degrees of sanskritisation; maybe we
> could describe this axis with two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other
> "tribalisation"... obviously the dialectic between cultures bring to hybrid
> phenomenon, but in my opinion the Hindu-Assamese culture is widely
> dominated by tribal traditions, and this probably depend by ancient politic
> needs.
>
> Best,
> Paolo
>
> P.S.: Maybe someone has a pdf copy of Kunal Chakrabarti "Religious
> Processes: The Puranas and the Making of a Regional Tradition" (2001).
>
>
> On 7 July 2015 at 11:25, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>
>> Dear Paolo,
>>
>> > So that are we sure that Kamahya is a sanskritised goddess? Or should
>> we consider the reverse process? Doesn't seem that were the Hindus to
>> emulate the tribal-men incorporating tribal worship elements?
>>
>> To my mind, both.
>>
>> A perfect example of a dialogic situation, whatever the motivation behind
>> the move to set up a new, structurally enriched place of worship and a
>> newly conceived object of veneration.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Artur
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Paolo E. Rosati
> Oriental Archaeologist
> PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa
> Section: South Asian Studies
> Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
> 'Sapienza' University of Rome
> paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it
> paoloe.rosati at gmail.com
> Mobile: (+39) 3387383472
> Skype: paoloe.rosati
>


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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 15:35:31 2015
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 09:35:31 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY]  Vayu-Purana Critical Edition Status?
Message-ID: <CAPAZekYxNKrDQQRYCLJbNAQkzEfzQ1Ozfpyp_RY6gk0FR1GCOg@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you, McComas, for your very informative and at the same time fun to
read quick report on the World Sanskrit Conference, Bangkok 2015. You
mentioned co-convening the first ever independent panel on the pur??as. I
wonder if you or anyone here knows the status of the forthcoming critical
edition of the *V?yu-pur??a* from the Oriental Institute, Vadodara. Since
this is generally regarded as the oldest pur??a we have, its critical
edition is especially important. I anxiously await its publication.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Tue Jul  7 15:44:33 2015
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 15:44:33 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tigers and Goats: A quick report on the World Sanskrit Conference, Bangkok 2015
In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED03752373D@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037523749@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>


Yes, thank you, McComas,

Point of information:

Does Rajiv Malhotra have any knowledge of Sanskrit?

Under what aegis did he address the conference?

all best,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________



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From glhart at berkeley.edu  Tue Jul  7 17:46:40 2015
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 10:46:40 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAEgrCzBRzq-c+6qzAQUc9aHDPEo2Y_RWBHC5KEiTnO4rsd069Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49AE927B-F58D-4834-9B62-939DD733C609@berkeley.edu>

Might I gently suggest that words like ?tribal? and ?tribal cults? should be avoided. Like ?untouchable? and the n-word, these words have long been used to marginalize, demean, and patronize various ethnic groups?and they are so nebulous that they have no real meaning (for me, at least). ?Indigenous? might be a good substitute. Words like ?tribal? and ?tribal cult? in my opinion serve to obscure the fact that the groups they are applied to are comprised of human beings whose cultures are quite as complex and sophisticated as the Brahmanical culture to which they are contrasted.

I am also bothered by the use of the term ?Sanskritization,? It is, in my opinion, a simplification of a very complex series of processes and interactions and is, in the end, quite misleading. In most areas, India has a cellular culture. Many different groups with varied identities, histories, practices, social views, etc. exist side by side, interacting with each other in complex ways. People may get status by eating more meat, less meat, or no meat at all, and the same goes for many other practices, beliefs and customs. It is perhaps useful to point out that in a place like Tamil Nadu, about 25% of the people are Dalits (3% are Brahmins). They have their own social hierarchies, no doubt, but they are not driven by ?Sanskritization.? Nor, for the most part, are the great majority of the rest of the people, all of whom are considered ?Sudras? by the Brahmins. George Hart

> On Jul 7, 2015, at 5:38 AM, Artur Karp <karp at UW.EDU.PL> wrote:
> 
> > two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation".
> 
> The question is: who functions in the role of priests at Kamakhya Devi?
> 
> Priests of local tribal cults?
> 
> If not, I would rather see there not "tribalization", but rather "controlled Sanskritization" of tribal cultural elements, undertaken not by the tribals, but by the local representatives of Sanskritic culture. Motivated, as you have noticed, by the political need to communicate on one hand with the local population, on the other - with the broader network of sub-continental cult/pilgrimage centers. 
> 
> Artur K.
> 
> 2015-07-07 12:20 GMT+02:00 Paolo Eugenio Rosati <paoloe.rosati at gmail.com <mailto:paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>>:
> I complitely agree.
> But why "we" talk about "sanskritisation" phenomena if a goddess and her devotional cult are dominated by tribal elements? I would like to describe this goddesses as "tribalised", maybe because they represent a manipulation of the "mainstream" Hindu Devi, to whom are overimposed tribal elements.
>  
> If the sanskritisation (or brahmanisation) process can be described as a vertical axis where are different degrees of sanskritisation; maybe we could describe this axis with two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation"... obviously the dialectic between cultures bring to hybrid phenomenon, but in my opinion the Hindu-Assamese culture is widely dominated by tribal traditions, and this probably depend by ancient politic needs.
>  
> Best,
> Paolo
>  
> P.S.: Maybe someone has a pdf copy of Kunal Chakrabarti "Religious Processes: The Puranas and the Making of a Regional Tradition" (2001).
>  
> 
> On 7 July 2015 at 11:25, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl <mailto:karp at uw.edu.pl>> wrote:
> Dear Paolo,
> 
> > So that are we sure that Kamahya is a sanskritised goddess? Or should we consider the reverse process? Doesn't seem that were the Hindus to emulate the tribal-men incorporating tribal worship elements?
> 
> To my mind, both. 
> 
> A perfect example of a dialogic situation, whatever the motivation behind the move to set up a new, structurally enriched place of worship and a newly conceived object of veneration. 
> 
> Best, 
> 
> Artur
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Paolo E. Rosati
> Oriental Archaeologist
> PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa
> Section: South Asian Studies
> Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
> 'Sapienza' University of Rome
> paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it <mailto:paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it>
> paoloe.rosati at gmail.com <mailto:paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>
> Mobile: (+39) 3387383472 <tel:%28%2B39%29%203387383472>
> Skype: paoloe.rosati
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Jul  7 18:12:42 2015
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 13:12:42 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAEgrCzBRzq-c+6qzAQUc9aHDPEo2Y_RWBHC5KEiTnO4rsd069Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FA238150-47DD-4D2B-961D-CBA4248A68C9@aol.com>

I am going to present a paper entitled ?From Priestess to Performers: Changes in Women?s Roles in Tamil Temples? at the SARII-SMU conference on October 10 in Dallas. See http://www.sarii.org/temples.html <http://www.sarii.org/temples.html> . My paper will trace the historical transition from non-brahmin female priests through brahmin female priests to brahmin male priests in the Tamil country. (Misunderstanding of the role and status of the female priests in the ancient Tamil culture has led to misinterpreting these priests as untouchables.)

You may also consult:
http://murugan.org/research/clothey.faces.of.murukan.htm <http://murugan.org/research/clothey.faces.of.murukan.htm> for the Muruka? cult.
http://www.abebooks.com/Ananda-Tandava-Siva-Sadanrttamurthi-Zvelebil-Kamil-V/857860691/bd <http://www.abebooks.com/Ananda-Tandava-Siva-Sadanrttamurthi-Zvelebil-Kamil-V/857860691/bd> for the Na?ar?ja cult.

The Tamil epic, the Cilappatik?ram, translated by R. Parthasarathy (The Cilappatikaram of Ilarilco Atikal: An Epic of South India. New York: Columbia University Press, 1993) may be very useful in this regard. See cantos 12 and 30 and the long postscript which refers to other works such as those by Obeyesekere. See also http://invokingthegoddess.lk/history/ <http://invokingthegoddess.lk/history/> . 

Regards,
Palaniappan


 

> On Jul 7, 2015, at 7:38 AM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
> 
> > two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation".
> 
> The question is: who functions in the role of priests at Kamakhya Devi?
> 
> Priests of local tribal cults?
> 
> If not, I would rather see there not "tribalization", but rather "controlled Sanskritization" of tribal cultural elements, undertaken not by the tribals, but by the local representatives of Sanskritic culture. Motivated, as you have noticed, by the political need to communicate on one hand with the local population, on the other - with the broader network of sub-continental cult/pilgrimage centers. 
> 
> Artur K.
> 
> 2015-07-07 12:20 GMT+02:00 Paolo Eugenio Rosati <paoloe.rosati at gmail.com <mailto:paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>>:
> I complitely agree.
> But why "we" talk about "sanskritisation" phenomena if a goddess and her devotional cult are dominated by tribal elements? I would like to describe this goddesses as "tribalised", maybe because they represent a manipulation of the "mainstream" Hindu Devi, to whom are overimposed tribal elements.
>  
> If the sanskritisation (or brahmanisation) process can be described as a vertical axis where are different degrees of sanskritisation; maybe we could describe this axis with two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation"... obviously the dialectic between cultures bring to hybrid phenomenon, but in my opinion the Hindu-Assamese culture is widely dominated by tribal traditions, and this probably depend by ancient politic needs.
>  
> Best,
> Paolo
>  
> P.S.: Maybe someone has a pdf copy of Kunal Chakrabarti "Religious Processes: The Puranas and the Making of a Regional Tradition" (2001).
>  
> 
> On 7 July 2015 at 11:25, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl <mailto:karp at uw.edu.pl>> wrote:
> Dear Paolo,
> 
> > So that are we sure that Kamahya is a sanskritised goddess? Or should we consider the reverse process? Doesn't seem that were the Hindus to emulate the tribal-men incorporating tribal worship elements?
> 
> To my mind, both. 
> 
> A perfect example of a dialogic situation, whatever the motivation behind the move to set up a new, structurally enriched place of worship and a newly conceived object of veneration. 
> 
> Best, 
> 
> Artur
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Paolo E. Rosati
> Oriental Archaeologist
> PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa
> Section: South Asian Studies
> Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
> 'Sapienza' University of Rome
> paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it <mailto:paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it>
> paoloe.rosati at gmail.com <mailto:paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>
> Mobile: (+39) 3387383472 <tel:%28%2B39%29%203387383472>
> Skype: paoloe.rosati
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From LubinT at wlu.edu  Tue Jul  7 19:03:38 2015
From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 19:03:38 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <49AE927B-F58D-4834-9B62-939DD733C609@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <D1C18E40.1E585%lubint@wlu.edu>

Prof. Hart,

The spirit of your point is commendable, but I would like to urge some caution on the specifics.  First, the example you cite in the first paragraph are not quite analogous.  The "n-word? and ?untouchable? are labels exclusively used to denigrate and enforce hierarchical subordination.  In the case of the word ?tribal? (and of course ?tribe?), it really much more depends on context.  In anthropological and social historical scholarly discourse it is usually intended as a value-neutral descriptor for a sort of social and political organization, and many of the cultural factors that tend to accompany tribal organization.  In other contexts, especially in popular usage, it can take a pejorative tone, but even there, no necessarily, I think.  And of course I don?t mean to overlook the fact that earlier (esp. colonial-era) scholarship betrayed some ?unscientific,? prejudiced attitudes or assumptions about such groups.  But we know that they were apt to betray such attitudes about other Indian groups as well.  For that matter, Brahmins often got tarred as obscurantist, superstitious, etc.

To my mind, the bigger problem with the category of ?tribal? is that it over-homogenizes.  But I don?t think ?indigenous? solves that problem, and may get us into further murkiness if it is understood as ?aboriginal? or ??div?s?,? since that raises often unanswerable questions about who got here first, who has prior claim, etc., not to mention the politics of Indo-Aryan or Dravidian nationalism.  But there are certainly times when one needs some word to use when observing common (if not universal) features of such groups.

As for ?Sanskritization,? this concept still has a lot of utility in my view, and the usual objections raised against it, including those offered here, seem to miss the point.  Sanskritization need not imply the presence of a fully homogeneous culture, the presence of a large or increasing number of Brahmins, or the actual adoption of Sanskrit language.  If refers either:

(1) to a "bottom-up? process in which a particular social group publicly begins to adopt certain practices or norms otherwise associated with putatively ?higher? castes, which usually includes the adoption of ritual or dietary practices advocated in Sanskrit texts (though direct appeal to Sanskrit texts is not necessarily involved ? the whole process may be mediated through vernacular sources, though part of the process tends to be an increasing use of ?Sanskritic? terms and registers of the vernacular.  (This was what Srinivas was talking about.)

or (2) to a more ?top-down? process in which political or other social elites adopt a policy of fostering ritual, dietary, etc., norms derived from Sanskrit discourses or the usage of Brahmins and other already-more-Sanskritized groups.  (See Eschmann & Kulke et al.?s Orissa Research Project publications, but many many others.  I would mention Sontheimer on the worship of Kha??ob? as well, and the whole sthalapur??a phenomenon.)

Both types of process may be involved simultaneously, of course.  Now discomfort with the word ?Sanskrit? has led to some people preferring to speak of Hinduization (which may be appropriate where markedly un-Sanskritic cultural features are adopted by groups such as the ones habitually called tribes in India, but in practice it seems to me usually to amount to the same thing as Sanskritization.   One sometimes sees ?Brahmanized,? which is all right if one is speaking of the spread of loosely ?Brahmanical? ideas or practices, but it is more misleading insofar as it seems to imply that Brahmins are the direct model of emulation, rather than certain habits (e.g., vegetarianism, patronage of Brahmin priests, use of Sanskrit mantras, wearing of the thread) that can be observed in use more widely.

Other directions of emulation certainly exist. Kulke, speaking of Brahmin zamindars emulating K?atriyas, wrote of ?K?atriya-ization.?

Anyway, the fact that Brahmins are such a small minority in most places, and ??dras and other groups so numerous in comparison is no argument against the existence of Sanskritization as a social phenomenon or political policy in particular times and places.  It has taken many different forms, ensuring that India remains a diverse patchwork of cultural cells.  It is just one of the factors in the perpetual negotiations of identity and status in the Indian cultural sphere.  Indeed, the fact that it has been one of the features of that sphere for three millennia despite the small number of actual Brahmins and their changing fortunes over time makes the phenomenon worthy of our attention.  It should not be ignored or denied simply out of a sentiment of ?let's leave off talking about Brahmins and Sanskrit already!? or ?let?s give group X its due, finally.?

Best,

Timothy Lubin
Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, Virginia 24450

http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint
http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
https://twitter.com/TimothyLubin

?




From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu<mailto:glhart at berkeley.edu>>
Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 1:46 PM
To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes

Might I gently suggest that words like ?tribal? and ?tribal cults? should be avoided. Like ?untouchable? and the n-word, these words have long been used to marginalize, demean, and patronize various ethnic groups?and they are so nebulous that they have no real meaning (for me, at least). ?Indigenous? might be a good substitute. Words like ?tribal? and ?tribal cult? in my opinion serve to obscure the fact that the groups they are applied to are comprised of human beings whose cultures are quite as complex and sophisticated as the Brahmanical culture to which they are contrasted.

I am also bothered by the use of the term ?Sanskritization,? It is, in my opinion, a simplification of a very complex series of processes and interactions and is, in the end, quite misleading. In most areas, India has a cellular culture. Many different groups with varied identities, histories, practices, social views, etc. exist side by side, interacting with each other in complex ways. People may get status by eating more meat, less meat, or no meat at all, and the same goes for many other practices, beliefs and customs. It is perhaps useful to point out that in a place like Tamil Nadu, about 25% of the people are Dalits (3% are Brahmins). They have their own social hierarchies, no doubt, but they are not driven by ?Sanskritization.? Nor, for the most part, are the great majority of the rest of the people, all of whom are considered ?Sudras? by the Brahmins. George Hart

On Jul 7, 2015, at 5:38 AM, Artur Karp <karp at UW.EDU.PL<mailto:karp at UW.EDU.PL>> wrote:

> two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation".

The question is: who functions in the role of priests at Kamakhya Devi?

Priests of local tribal cults?

If not, I would rather see there not "tribalization", but rather "controlled Sanskritization" of tribal cultural elements, undertaken not by the tribals, but by the local representatives of Sanskritic culture. Motivated, as you have noticed, by the political need to communicate on one hand with the local population, on the other - with the broader network of sub-continental cult/pilgrimage centers.

Artur K.

2015-07-07 12:20 GMT+02:00 Paolo Eugenio Rosati <paoloe.rosati at gmail.com<mailto:paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>>:
I complitely agree.
But why "we" talk about "sanskritisation" phenomena if a goddess and her devotional cult are dominated by tribal elements? I would like to describe this goddesses as "tribalised", maybe because they represent a manipulation of the "mainstream" Hindu Devi, to whom are overimposed tribal elements.

If the sanskritisation (or brahmanisation) process can be described as a vertical axis where are different degrees of sanskritisation; maybe we could describe this axis with two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation"... obviously the dialectic between cultures bring to hybrid phenomenon, but in my opinion the Hindu-Assamese culture is widely dominated by tribal traditions, and this probably depend by ancient politic needs.

Best,
Paolo

P.S.: Maybe someone has a pdf copy of Kunal Chakrabarti "Religious Processes: The Puranas and the Making of a Regional Tradition" (2001).


On 7 July 2015 at 11:25, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl<mailto:karp at uw.edu.pl>> wrote:
Dear Paolo,

> So that are we sure that Kamahya is a sanskritised goddess? Or should we consider the reverse process? Doesn't seem that were the Hindus to emulate the tribal-men incorporating tribal worship elements?

To my mind, both.

A perfect example of a dialogic situation, whatever the motivation behind the move to set up a new, structurally enriched place of worship and a newly conceived object of veneration.

Best,

Artur



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--
Paolo E. Rosati
Oriental Archaeologist
PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa
Section: South Asian Studies
Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
'Sapienza' University of Rome
paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it<mailto:paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it>
paoloe.rosati at gmail.com<mailto:paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>
Mobile: (+39) 3387383472<tel:%28%2B39%29%203387383472>
Skype: paoloe.rosati

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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Tue Jul  7 19:33:04 2015
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 21:33:04 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <49AE927B-F58D-4834-9B62-939DD733C609@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEgrCzBb1Hmc7=R1Ce-MAvhi+YL7D7JpZNyKdoXHvh5ger9V8w@mail.gmail.com>

> words like ?tribal? and ?tribal cults? should be avoided.
> ?Indigenous? might be a good substitute.

Dear Prof. Hart,

I stand corrected. Or - do I?

In fact - why these terms should be avoided? The question of political
correctness? It seems to be, considering your opinion that "these words
have long been used to marginalize, demean, and patronize various ethnic
groups". I personally do not share your conviction. The Constitution of the
Indian Republic recognizes 645 "district tribes" formally enumerated  in
the list of Scheduled Tribes in India. Although it is understood that the
term "Scheduled Tribes" is equivalent to "indigenous peoples", the term
"tribe" is formally used.

Is the term "indigenous" less nebulous than the term "tribal"? I am, again,
not convinced. But, that may be the question of my un-English linguistic
heritage.

> Word like ?tribal? and ?tribal cult? in my opinion serve to obscure the
fact
> that the groups they are applied to are comprised of human beings whose >
cultures are quite as complex and sophisticated as the Brahmanical culture
> to which they are contrasted.

Let me ask a straightforward (and possibly naive) question: have you ever
heard a statement in which the use of the term "tribal" was meant,
consciously, to rob the "indigenous peoples" of their humanity?


> ?untouchable?

Should we re-edit Gandhi's and Ambedkar's works, and insert "Dalits" in
place of "untouchables". What about the "practices of untouchability"?
Should we, from now on, speak about the "practices of Dalitness/Dalithood"?

> and the n-word

What, pray, is "n-word" supposed to mean?

Finally, it is the Sanskritic term "upa-jati" that was formed and is used
to define the "tribals/indigenous peoples" as groups of lower, of
sub-status. Is there a tendency to use some other, less demeaning
Sanskritic term to describe these groups?

Best,

Artur Karp

Warsaw, Poland




2015-07-07 19:46 GMT+02:00 George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu>:

> Might I gently suggest that words like ?tribal? and ?tribal cults? should
> be avoided. Like ?untouchable? and the n-word, these words have long been
> used to marginalize, demean, and patronize various ethnic groups?and they
> are so nebulous that they have no real meaning (for me, at least).
> ?Indigenous? might be a good substitute. Words like ?tribal? and ?tribal
> cult? in my opinion serve to obscure the fact that the groups they are
> applied to are comprised of human beings whose cultures are quite as
> complex and sophisticated as the Brahmanical culture to which they are
> contrasted.
>
> I am also bothered by the use of the term ?Sanskritization,? It is, in my
> opinion, a simplification of a very complex series of processes and
> interactions and is, in the end, quite misleading. In most areas, India has
> a cellular culture. Many different groups with varied identities,
> histories, practices, social views, etc. exist side by side, interacting
> with each other in complex ways. People may get status by eating more meat,
> less meat, or no meat at all, and the same goes for many other practices,
> beliefs and customs. It is perhaps useful to point out that in a place like
> Tamil Nadu, about 25% of the people are Dalits (3% are Brahmins). They have
> their own social hierarchies, no doubt, but they are not driven by
> ?Sanskritization.? Nor, for the most part, are the great majority of the
> rest of the people, all of whom are considered ?Sudras? by the Brahmins.
> George Hart
>
> On Jul 7, 2015, at 5:38 AM, Artur Karp <karp at UW.EDU.PL> wrote:
>
> > two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation".
>
> The question is: who functions in the role of priests at Kamakhya Devi?
>
> Priests of local tribal cults?
>
> If not, I would rather see there not "tribalization", but rather
> "controlled Sanskritization" of tribal cultural elements, undertaken not by
> the tribals, but by the local representatives of Sanskritic culture.
> Motivated, as you have noticed, by the political need to communicate on one
> hand with the local population, on the other - with the broader network of
> sub-continental cult/pilgrimage centers.
>
> Artur K.
>
> 2015-07-07 12:20 GMT+02:00 Paolo Eugenio Rosati <paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>:
>
>> I complitely agree.
>> But why "we" talk about "sanskritisation" phenomena if a goddess and her
>> devotional cult are dominated by tribal elements? I would like to describe
>> this goddesses as "tribalised", maybe because they represent a manipulation
>> of the "mainstream" Hindu Devi, to whom are overimposed tribal elements.
>>
>> If the sanskritisation (or brahmanisation) process can be described as a
>> vertical axis where are different degrees of sanskritisation; maybe we
>> could describe this axis with two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other
>> "tribalisation"... obviously the dialectic between cultures bring to hybrid
>> phenomenon, but in my opinion the Hindu-Assamese culture is widely
>> dominated by tribal traditions, and this probably depend by ancient politic
>> needs.
>>
>> Best,
>> Paolo
>>
>> P.S.: Maybe someone has a pdf copy of Kunal Chakrabarti "Religious
>> Processes: The Puranas and the Making of a Regional Tradition" (2001).
>>
>>
>> On 7 July 2015 at 11:25, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Paolo,
>>>
>>> > So that are we sure that Kamahya is a sanskritised goddess? Or should
>>> we consider the reverse process? Doesn't seem that were the Hindus to
>>> emulate the tribal-men incorporating tribal worship elements?
>>>
>>> To my mind, both.
>>>
>>> A perfect example of a dialogic situation, whatever the motivation
>>> behind the move to set up a new, structurally enriched place of worship and
>>> a newly conceived object of veneration.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Artur
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paolo E. Rosati
>> Oriental Archaeologist
>> PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa
>> Section: South Asian Studies
>> Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
>> 'Sapienza' University of Rome
>> paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it
>> paoloe.rosati at gmail.com
>> Mobile: (+39) 3387383472
>> Skype: paoloe.rosati
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 19:50:27 2015
From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 21:50:27 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAEgrCzBb1Hmc7=R1Ce-MAvhi+YL7D7JpZNyKdoXHvh5ger9V8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMOCTf_W0LFhx3AiAGMZ80GntxuwufKfEpTZe70Y_cDq6P8DAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

I would just specify that my aim in the use of a term as "tribalisation"
(and "tribal") is intended to give the same dignity and rank to the so
(wrongly) called "minor", "other", "local" traditios that is storically
awarded to the Sanskrit-Brahmanic tradition.

*Regarding the "sanskritisation":*
although I don't agree with Srinivas (because of what we have already wrote
about dialectic between traditions more than sanskritisation), the use of
the term it is a (in my personal idea of research) form of respect for the
scholar that proposed this concept in the middle of 50s, around 60 years
ago! It was for sure not perfect at all, but was a great study that let we
speculate about Hindu/non-Hindu cross-cultural interactions, hybridisation
of an Indic culture, religious syncretism between Hindu/non-Hindu cultures,
etc... It is just my modest academic position as young researcher.

With the best regards,
Paolo

On 7 July 2015 at 21:33, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:

> > words like ?tribal? and ?tribal cults? should be avoided.
> > ?Indigenous? might be a good substitute.
>
> Dear Prof. Hart,
>
> I stand corrected. Or - do I?
>
> In fact - why these terms should be avoided? The question of political
> correctness? It seems to be, considering your opinion that "these words
> have long been used to marginalize, demean, and patronize various ethnic
> groups". I personally do not share your conviction. The Constitution of the
> Indian Republic recognizes 645 "district tribes" formally enumerated  in
> the list of Scheduled Tribes in India. Although it is understood that the
> term "Scheduled Tribes" is equivalent to "indigenous peoples", the term
> "tribe" is formally used.
>
> Is the term "indigenous" less nebulous than the term "tribal"? I am,
> again, not convinced. But, that may be the question of my un-English
> linguistic heritage.
>
> > Word like ?tribal? and ?tribal cult? in my opinion serve to obscure the
> fact
> > that the groups they are applied to are comprised of human beings whose
> > cultures are quite as complex and sophisticated as the Brahmanical
> culture > to which they are contrasted.
>
> Let me ask a straightforward (and possibly naive) question: have you ever
> heard a statement in which the use of the term "tribal" was meant,
> consciously, to rob the "indigenous peoples" of their humanity?
>
>
> > ?untouchable?
>
> Should we re-edit Gandhi's and Ambedkar's works, and insert "Dalits" in
> place of "untouchables". What about the "practices of untouchability"?
> Should we, from now on, speak about the "practices of Dalitness/Dalithood"?
>
> > and the n-word
>
> What, pray, is "n-word" supposed to mean?
>
> Finally, it is the Sanskritic term "upa-jati" that was formed and is used
> to define the "tribals/indigenous peoples" as groups of lower, of
> sub-status. Is there a tendency to use some other, less demeaning
> Sanskritic term to describe these groups?
>
> Best,
>
> Artur Karp
>
> Warsaw, Poland
>
>
>
>
> 2015-07-07 19:46 GMT+02:00 George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu>:
>
>> Might I gently suggest that words like ?tribal? and ?tribal cults? should
>> be avoided. Like ?untouchable? and the n-word, these words have long been
>> used to marginalize, demean, and patronize various ethnic groups?and they
>> are so nebulous that they have no real meaning (for me, at least).
>> ?Indigenous? might be a good substitute. Words like ?tribal? and ?tribal
>> cult? in my opinion serve to obscure the fact that the groups they are
>> applied to are comprised of human beings whose cultures are quite as
>> complex and sophisticated as the Brahmanical culture to which they are
>> contrasted.
>>
>> I am also bothered by the use of the term ?Sanskritization,? It is, in my
>> opinion, a simplification of a very complex series of processes and
>> interactions and is, in the end, quite misleading. In most areas, India has
>> a cellular culture. Many different groups with varied identities,
>> histories, practices, social views, etc. exist side by side, interacting
>> with each other in complex ways. People may get status by eating more meat,
>> less meat, or no meat at all, and the same goes for many other practices,
>> beliefs and customs. It is perhaps useful to point out that in a place like
>> Tamil Nadu, about 25% of the people are Dalits (3% are Brahmins). They have
>> their own social hierarchies, no doubt, but they are not driven by
>> ?Sanskritization.? Nor, for the most part, are the great majority of the
>> rest of the people, all of whom are considered ?Sudras? by the Brahmins.
>> George Hart
>>
>> On Jul 7, 2015, at 5:38 AM, Artur Karp <karp at UW.EDU.PL> wrote:
>>
>> > two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation".
>>
>> The question is: who functions in the role of priests at Kamakhya Devi?
>>
>> Priests of local tribal cults?
>>
>> If not, I would rather see there not "tribalization", but rather
>> "controlled Sanskritization" of tribal cultural elements, undertaken not by
>> the tribals, but by the local representatives of Sanskritic culture.
>> Motivated, as you have noticed, by the political need to communicate on one
>> hand with the local population, on the other - with the broader network of
>> sub-continental cult/pilgrimage centers.
>>
>> Artur K.
>>
>> 2015-07-07 12:20 GMT+02:00 Paolo Eugenio Rosati <paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>
>> :
>>
>>> I complitely agree.
>>> But why "we" talk about "sanskritisation" phenomena if a goddess and her
>>> devotional cult are dominated by tribal elements? I would like to describe
>>> this goddesses as "tribalised", maybe because they represent a manipulation
>>> of the "mainstream" Hindu Devi, to whom are overimposed tribal elements.
>>>
>>> If the sanskritisation (or brahmanisation) process can be described as a
>>> vertical axis where are different degrees of sanskritisation; maybe we
>>> could describe this axis with two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other
>>> "tribalisation"... obviously the dialectic between cultures bring to hybrid
>>> phenomenon, but in my opinion the Hindu-Assamese culture is widely
>>> dominated by tribal traditions, and this probably depend by ancient politic
>>> needs.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Paolo
>>>
>>> P.S.: Maybe someone has a pdf copy of Kunal Chakrabarti "Religious
>>> Processes: The Puranas and the Making of a Regional Tradition" (2001).
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7 July 2015 at 11:25, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Paolo,
>>>>
>>>> > So that are we sure that Kamahya is a sanskritised goddess? Or should
>>>> we consider the reverse process? Doesn't seem that were the Hindus to
>>>> emulate the tribal-men incorporating tribal worship elements?
>>>>
>>>> To my mind, both.
>>>>
>>>> A perfect example of a dialogic situation, whatever the motivation
>>>> behind the move to set up a new, structurally enriched place of worship and
>>>> a newly conceived object of veneration.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Artur
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Paolo E. Rosati
>>> Oriental Archaeologist
>>> PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa
>>> Section: South Asian Studies
>>> Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
>>> 'Sapienza' University of Rome
>>> paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it
>>> paoloe.rosati at gmail.com
>>> Mobile: (+39) 3387383472
>>> Skype: paoloe.rosati
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Paolo E. Rosati
Oriental Archaeologist
PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa
Section: South Asian Studies
Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
'Sapienza' University of Rome
paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it
paoloe.rosati at gmail.com
Mobile: (+39) 3387383472
Skype: paoloe.rosati


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From glhart at berkeley.edu  Tue Jul  7 19:54:47 2015
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 12:54:47 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <D1C18E40.1E585%lubint@wlu.edu>
Message-ID: <56FAA727-A955-42DA-BBD3-C5A21F02289E@berkeley.edu>

Dear Timothy,

I?ll grant your point that ?tribal? is not necessarily pejorative, though it has been used that way. The bigger problem with it is that it is nebulous. Were the people who composed the Rig Veda ?tribal?? Is the Rig Veda a ?cult? document? What would this mean? Certainly one could argue that the Rig Veda was both of these things. Instead of ?tribal? would it not be germane to actually name the group (or ?tribe?) involved? That would certainly make things clearer. ?Folk? is another problematic term. Instead of ?folk? it would be good to be more specific. (And let?s not get into ?little? and ?great? tradition?.)

The problem with the term ?Sanskritization? in my view is that it?s a mask or calk put over a system that has an almost endless number of processes going on at once. If a South-Indian Brahmin goes into a village and asks people about their culture, they will tell him something they think will make him respect them. It may or may not reflect what they actually do or believe. If an upper-caste non-Brahmin does the same thing, they will probably say something quite different?and that may not be accurate either. In Tamil Nadu among some groups (e.g. Chettiars), the use of Tamil and the Tamil tradition is a sign of higher status. They eschew Sanskrit. And in the Tamil language, good formal writing, whether by Brahmins or others, scrupulously avoids Sanskrit words. Even in a language like Malayalam, which uses practically the entire Sanskrit lexicon (and, indeed, extends it), using indigenous Malayalam words does not lower the status of writing, as a glance at the Manipravalam works in the language shows. If you go among such many non-Brahmin groups in South India, you?ll find that the last thing they wish to do is emulate Brahmins. That, at least, is my experience, not only with Tamil groups but also with people from Andhra and Kerala. There is no doubt that the work of Srinivas has validity, but I think it?s important to realize that he brings out only one perspective on a very complex system. If Sanskritization were as thorough-going as you suggest, 90% or more of the Indian population would not be non-vegetarian. I am not against giving the Brahmins their due. Their influence has been pervasive and long-lasting. But at the same time, village India is full of worlds in which Brahmins and Brahmanical ideas scarcely enter. To see the entire culture in terms of Brahmins or Sanskritization is simply inaccurate, in my opinion. George
   
> On Jul 7, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Lubin, Tim <lubint at WLU.EDU> wrote:
> 
> Prof. Hart,
> 
> The spirit of your point is commendable, but I would like to urge some caution on the specifics.  First, the example you cite in the first paragraph are not quite analogous.  The "n-word? and ?untouchable? are labels exclusively used to denigrate and enforce hierarchical subordination.  In the case of the word ?tribal? (and of course ?tribe?), it really much more depends on context.  In anthropological and social historical scholarly discourse it is usually intended as a value-neutral descriptor for a sort of social and political organization, and many of the cultural factors that tend to accompany tribal organization.  In other contexts, especially in popular usage, it can take a pejorative tone, but even there, no necessarily, I think.  And of course I don?t mean to overlook the fact that earlier (esp. colonial-era) scholarship betrayed some ?unscientific,? prejudiced attitudes or assumptions about such groups.  But we know that they were apt to betray such attitudes about other Indian groups as well.  For that matter, Brahmins often got tarred as obscurantist, superstitious, etc.
> 
> To my mind, the bigger problem with the category of ?tribal? is that it over-homogenizes.  But I don?t think ?indigenous? solves that problem, and may get us into further murkiness if it is understood as ?aboriginal? or ??div?s?,? since that raises often unanswerable questions about who got here first, who has prior claim, etc., not to mention the politics of Indo-Aryan or Dravidian nationalism.  But there are certainly times when one needs some word to use when observing common (if not universal) features of such groups.
> 
> As for ?Sanskritization,? this concept still has a lot of utility in my view, and the usual objections raised against it, including those offered here, seem to miss the point.  Sanskritization need not imply the presence of a fully homogeneous culture, the presence of a large or increasing number of Brahmins, or the actual adoption of Sanskrit language.  If refers either:
> 
> (1) to a "bottom-up? process in which a particular social group publicly begins to adopt certain practices or norms otherwise associated with putatively ?higher? castes, which usually includes the adoption of ritual or dietary practices advocated in Sanskrit texts (though direct appeal to Sanskrit texts is not necessarily involved ? the whole process may be mediated through vernacular sources, though part of the process tends to be an increasing use of ?Sanskritic? terms and registers of the vernacular.  (This was what Srinivas was talking about.)
> 
> or (2) to a more ?top-down? process in which political or other social elites adopt a policy of fostering ritual, dietary, etc., norms derived from Sanskrit discourses or the usage of Brahmins and other already-more-Sanskritized groups.  (See Eschmann & Kulke et al.?s Orissa Research Project publications, but many many others.  I would mention Sontheimer on the worship of Kha??ob? as well, and the whole sthalapur??a phenomenon.)
> 
> Both types of process may be involved simultaneously, of course.  Now discomfort with the word ?Sanskrit? has led to some people preferring to speak of Hinduization (which may be appropriate where markedly un-Sanskritic cultural features are adopted by groups such as the ones habitually called tribes in India, but in practice it seems to me usually to amount to the same thing as Sanskritization.   One sometimes sees ?Brahmanized,? which is all right if one is speaking of the spread of loosely ?Brahmanical? ideas or practices, but it is more misleading insofar as it seems to imply that Brahmins are the direct model of emulation, rather than certain habits (e.g., vegetarianism, patronage of Brahmin priests, use of Sanskrit mantras, wearing of the thread) that can be observed in use more widely.
> 
> Other directions of emulation certainly exist. Kulke, speaking of Brahmin zamindars emulating K?atriyas, wrote of ?K?atriya-ization.?
> 
> Anyway, the fact that Brahmins are such a small minority in most places, and ??dras and other groups so numerous in comparison is no argument against the existence of Sanskritization as a social phenomenon or political policy in particular times and places.  It has taken many different forms, ensuring that India remains a diverse patchwork of cultural cells.  It is just one of the factors in the perpetual negotiations of identity and status in the Indian cultural sphere.  Indeed, the fact that it has been one of the features of that sphere for three millennia despite the small number of actual Brahmins and their changing fortunes over time makes the phenomenon worthy of our attention.  It should not be ignored or denied simply out of a sentiment of ?let's leave off talking about Brahmins and Sanskrit already!? or ?let?s give group X its due, finally.?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Timothy Lubin
> Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
> Washington and Lee University
> Lexington, Virginia 24450
> 
> http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint <http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint> 
> http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin <http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin> 
> https://twitter.com/TimothyLubin <https://twitter.com/TimothyLubin>
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu <mailto:glhart at berkeley.edu>>
> Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 1:46 PM
> To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
> 
> Might I gently suggest that words like ?tribal? and ?tribal cults? should be avoided. Like ?untouchable? and the n-word, these words have long been used to marginalize, demean, and patronize various ethnic groups?and they are so nebulous that they have no real meaning (for me, at least). ?Indigenous? might be a good substitute. Words like ?tribal? and ?tribal cult? in my opinion serve to obscure the fact that the groups they are applied to are comprised of human beings whose cultures are quite as complex and sophisticated as the Brahmanical culture to which they are contrasted.
> 
> I am also bothered by the use of the term ?Sanskritization,? It is, in my opinion, a simplification of a very complex series of processes and interactions and is, in the end, quite misleading. In most areas, India has a cellular culture. Many different groups with varied identities, histories, practices, social views, etc. exist side by side, interacting with each other in complex ways. People may get status by eating more meat, less meat, or no meat at all, and the same goes for many other practices, beliefs and customs. It is perhaps useful to point out that in a place like Tamil Nadu, about 25% of the people are Dalits (3% are Brahmins). They have their own social hierarchies, no doubt, but they are not driven by ?Sanskritization.? Nor, for the most part, are the great majority of the rest of the people, all of whom are considered ?Sudras? by the Brahmins. George Hart
> 
>> On Jul 7, 2015, at 5:38 AM, Artur Karp <karp at UW.EDU.PL <mailto:karp at UW.EDU.PL>> wrote:
>> 
>> > two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation".
>> 
>> The question is: who functions in the role of priests at Kamakhya Devi?
>> 
>> Priests of local tribal cults?
>> 
>> If not, I would rather see there not "tribalization", but rather "controlled Sanskritization" of tribal cultural elements, undertaken not by the tribals, but by the local representatives of Sanskritic culture. Motivated, as you have noticed, by the political need to communicate on one hand with the local population, on the other - with the broader network of sub-continental cult/pilgrimage centers. 
>> 
>> Artur K.
>> 
>> 2015-07-07 12:20 GMT+02:00 Paolo Eugenio Rosati <paoloe.rosati at gmail.com <mailto:paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>>:
>>> I complitely agree.
>>> But why "we" talk about "sanskritisation" phenomena if a goddess and her devotional cult are dominated by tribal elements? I would like to describe this goddesses as "tribalised", maybe because they represent a manipulation of the "mainstream" Hindu Devi, to whom are overimposed tribal elements.
>>>  
>>> If the sanskritisation (or brahmanisation) process can be described as a vertical axis where are different degrees of sanskritisation; maybe we could describe this axis with two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation"... obviously the dialectic between cultures bring to hybrid phenomenon, but in my opinion the Hindu-Assamese culture is widely dominated by tribal traditions, and this probably depend by ancient politic needs.
>>>  
>>> Best,
>>> Paolo
>>>  
>>> P.S.: Maybe someone has a pdf copy of Kunal Chakrabarti "Religious Processes: The Puranas and the Making of a Regional Tradition" (2001).
>>>  
>>> 
>>> On 7 July 2015 at 11:25, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl <mailto:karp at uw.edu.pl>> wrote:
>>>> Dear Paolo,
>>>> 
>>>> > So that are we sure that Kamahya is a sanskritised goddess? Or should we consider the reverse process? Doesn't seem that were the Hindus to emulate the tribal-men incorporating tribal worship elements?
>>>> 
>>>> To my mind, both. 
>>>> 
>>>> A perfect example of a dialogic situation, whatever the motivation behind the move to set up a new, structurally enriched place of worship and a newly conceived object of veneration. 
>>>> 
>>>> Best, 
>>>> 
>>>> Artur
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Paolo E. Rosati
>>> Oriental Archaeologist
>>> PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa
>>> Section: South Asian Studies
>>> Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
>>> 'Sapienza' University of Rome
>>> paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it <mailto:paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it>
>>> paoloe.rosati at gmail.com <mailto:paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>
>>> Mobile: (+39) 3387383472 <tel:%28%2B39%29%203387383472>
>>> Skype: paoloe.rosati
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 



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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 20:36:00 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 15 02:06:00 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eajXSdNAtRO4aHyrj=CDGMd7UHRcJRiuAXyarDuv5xd8A@mail.gmail.com>

Should be relevant :


Sontheimer G.D.*?The Vana and the K**?**etra**: The Tribal Background of
Some Famous Cults?, in Tripathi G.C., Kulke H. , eds, Eschmann Memorial
Lectures, Bhubaneswar, 1987*

Chattopadhyaya B.D.*?Autonomous Spaces and the Authority of the State: The
Contradiction and its Resolution in Theory and Practice in Early India?, in
Kolver Bernhard, von Elisabeth Muller-Kuckner unter Mitarbeit , eds, The
State, the Law and Administration in Classical India, Munchen, 1997*

Chattopadhyaya B.D.*?State?s Perception of the Forest and the Forest as
State in Early India?, in Chaudhuri B.B., Bandopadhyay A. , eds, Tribes,
Forests and Social Formations, New Delhi, 2004*

Durga P.S. Kanaka, Reddy Y.A.S.*?Kings, Temples and Legitimation of
Autochthonous Communities: A Case Study of a South Indian Temple?, JESHO,
Vol. 35(2), 1992*

Kulke H.*Kings and Cults: State Formation and Legitimation in South and
Southeast Asia, New Delhi, 1993.*


-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From LubinT at wlu.edu  Tue Jul  7 20:39:00 2015
From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 20:39:00 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <56FAA727-A955-42DA-BBD3-C5A21F02289E@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <D1C1AA5E.1E616%lubint@wlu.edu>

> Were the people who composed the Rig Veda ?tribal??

Yes, so it seems.

> Is the Rig Veda a ?cult? document?

Yes.
(at least, when it takes the form of a document, which was a secondary development).

> What would this mean?

It means that is was a collection of poetry made, at least in it surviving form, largely as a ?hymnal? and training text for priests of the hot? group in the ?rauta-yaj?a service (and for many other ritual purposes besides).  Ma??ala 9 is a sub-section consisting entirely of poems praising "Soma as he is becoming pure? at a key point in the Soma ritual.  Ma??alas 1 and 10 contain some other material, but ?cultic text? ? mantras, by virtue of their application in cultic activities ? described the collection well.  ?Cult? of course in the classical sense of ?a particular system of ritual veneration and devotion.?  The various collections of the S?maveda and Y?jurveda were likewise supplied the mantras for the other main groups of officiants.

> 90% or more of the Indian population would not be non-vegetarian

That is precisely the context in which it is a big statement to adopt a vegetarian diet (or norm for temple offerings, as at the Jejuri Kha??ob? temple).  Sanskritization is certainly not the whole story of Indian culture.  It is not even the whole story of commonalities linking the whole cultural region.  But it is certainly a big part of the latter.

> And in the Tamil language, good formal writing, whether by Brahmins or others, scrupulously avoids Sanskrit words.

The fact that scruples are needed for this, I think, testifies to the presence of the effects of past Sanskritizing, doesn?t it?  Latterday anti-Brahmanism, and Dravidian linguistic purity, is precisely a counterpoise or resistance to the opposite pressure, or its traces anyway.

And strictly speaking, though the use of obvious tatsamas can be avoided, it is hardly possible to speak Tamil without using words that originated as Indo-Aryan loans (e.g., from Prakrit).  Those are there as a result of influence from the north, mediated through political developments and cultural cosmopolitanism, much of which was not Sanskritization in the narrowest sense, but some of which was, arguably.  Multifarious, no doubt, and partial (or limited more to some spheres than others), but one of the factors to be considered from early on.

TL


From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu<mailto:glhart at berkeley.edu>>
Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 3:54 PM
To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes

Dear Timothy,

I?ll grant your point that ?tribal? is not necessarily pejorative, though it has been used that way. The bigger problem with it is that it is nebulous. Were the people who composed the Rig Veda ?tribal?? Is the Rig Veda a ?cult? document? What would this mean? Certainly one could argue that the Rig Veda was both of these things. Instead of ?tribal? would it not be germane to actually name the group (or ?tribe?) involved? That would certainly make things clearer. ?Folk? is another problematic term. Instead of ?folk? it would be good to be more specific. (And let?s not get into ?little? and ?great? tradition?.)

The problem with the term ?Sanskritization? in my view is that it?s a mask or calk put over a system that has an almost endless number of processes going on at once. If a South-Indian Brahmin goes into a village and asks people about their culture, they will tell him something they think will make him respect them. It may or may not reflect what they actually do or believe. If an upper-caste non-Brahmin does the same thing, they will probably say something quite different?and that may not be accurate either. In Tamil Nadu among some groups (e.g. Chettiars), the use of Tamil and the Tamil tradition is a sign of higher status. They eschew Sanskrit. And in the Tamil language, good formal writing, whether by Brahmins or others, scrupulously avoids Sanskrit words. Even in a language like Malayalam, which uses practically the entire Sanskrit lexicon (and, indeed, extends it), using indigenous Malayalam words does not lower the status of writing, as a glance at the Manipravalam works in the language shows. If you go among such many non-Brahmin groups in South India, you?ll find that the last thing they wish to do is emulate Brahmins. That, at least, is my experience, not only with Tamil groups but also with people from Andhra and Kerala. There is no doubt that the work of Srinivas has validity, but I think it?s important to realize that he brings out only one perspective on a very complex system. If Sanskritization were as thorough-going as you suggest, 90% or more of the Indian population would not be non-vegetarian. I am not against giving the Brahmins their due. Their influence has been pervasive and long-lasting. But at the same time, village India is full of worlds in which Brahmins and Brahmanical ideas scarcely enter. To see the entire culture in terms of Brahmins or Sanskritization is simply inaccurate, in my opinion. George

On Jul 7, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Lubin, Tim <lubint at WLU.EDU<mailto:lubint at WLU.EDU>> wrote:

Prof. Hart,

The spirit of your point is commendable, but I would like to urge some caution on the specifics.  First, the example you cite in the first paragraph are not quite analogous.  The "n-word? and ?untouchable? are labels exclusively used to denigrate and enforce hierarchical subordination.  In the case of the word ?tribal? (and of course ?tribe?), it really much more depends on context.  In anthropological and social historical scholarly discourse it is usually intended as a value-neutral descriptor for a sort of social and political organization, and many of the cultural factors that tend to accompany tribal organization.  In other contexts, especially in popular usage, it can take a pejorative tone, but even there, no necessarily, I think.  And of course I don?t mean to overlook the fact that earlier (esp. colonial-era) scholarship betrayed some ?unscientific,? prejudiced attitudes or assumptions about such groups.  But we know that they were apt to betray such attitudes about other Indian groups as well.  For that matter, Brahmins often got tarred as obscurantist, superstitious, etc.

To my mind, the bigger problem with the category of ?tribal? is that it over-homogenizes.  But I don?t think ?indigenous? solves that problem, and may get us into further murkiness if it is understood as ?aboriginal? or ??div?s?,? since that raises often unanswerable questions about who got here first, who has prior claim, etc., not to mention the politics of Indo-Aryan or Dravidian nationalism.  But there are certainly times when one needs some word to use when observing common (if not universal) features of such groups.

As for ?Sanskritization,? this concept still has a lot of utility in my view, and the usual objections raised against it, including those offered here, seem to miss the point.  Sanskritization need not imply the presence of a fully homogeneous culture, the presence of a large or increasing number of Brahmins, or the actual adoption of Sanskrit language.  If refers either:

(1) to a "bottom-up? process in which a particular social group publicly begins to adopt certain practices or norms otherwise associated with putatively ?higher? castes, which usually includes the adoption of ritual or dietary practices advocated in Sanskrit texts (though direct appeal to Sanskrit texts is not necessarily involved ? the whole process may be mediated through vernacular sources, though part of the process tends to be an increasing use of ?Sanskritic? terms and registers of the vernacular.  (This was what Srinivas was talking about.)

or (2) to a more ?top-down? process in which political or other social elites adopt a policy of fostering ritual, dietary, etc., norms derived from Sanskrit discourses or the usage of Brahmins and other already-more-Sanskritized groups.  (See Eschmann & Kulke et al.?s Orissa Research Project publications, but many many others.  I would mention Sontheimer on the worship of Kha??ob? as well, and the whole sthalapur??a phenomenon.)

Both types of process may be involved simultaneously, of course.  Now discomfort with the word ?Sanskrit? has led to some people preferring to speak of Hinduization (which may be appropriate where markedly un-Sanskritic cultural features are adopted by groups such as the ones habitually called tribes in India, but in practice it seems to me usually to amount to the same thing as Sanskritization.   One sometimes sees ?Brahmanized,? which is all right if one is speaking of the spread of loosely ?Brahmanical? ideas or practices, but it is more misleading insofar as it seems to imply that Brahmins are the direct model of emulation, rather than certain habits (e.g., vegetarianism, patronage of Brahmin priests, use of Sanskrit mantras, wearing of the thread) that can be observed in use more widely.

Other directions of emulation certainly exist. Kulke, speaking of Brahmin zamindars emulating K?atriyas, wrote of ?K?atriya-ization.?

Anyway, the fact that Brahmins are such a small minority in most places, and ??dras and other groups so numerous in comparison is no argument against the existence of Sanskritization as a social phenomenon or political policy in particular times and places.  It has taken many different forms, ensuring that India remains a diverse patchwork of cultural cells.  It is just one of the factors in the perpetual negotiations of identity and status in the Indian cultural sphere.  Indeed, the fact that it has been one of the features of that sphere for three millennia despite the small number of actual Brahmins and their changing fortunes over time makes the phenomenon worthy of our attention.  It should not be ignored or denied simply out of a sentiment of ?let's leave off talking about Brahmins and Sanskrit already!? or ?let?s give group X its due, finally.?

Best,

Timothy Lubin
Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, Virginia 24450

http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint
http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
https://twitter.com/TimothyLubin

?




From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu<mailto:glhart at berkeley.edu>>
Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 1:46 PM
To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes

Might I gently suggest that words like ?tribal? and ?tribal cults? should be avoided. Like ?untouchable? and the n-word, these words have long been used to marginalize, demean, and patronize various ethnic groups?and they are so nebulous that they have no real meaning (for me, at least). ?Indigenous? might be a good substitute. Words like ?tribal? and ?tribal cult? in my opinion serve to obscure the fact that the groups they are applied to are comprised of human beings whose cultures are quite as complex and sophisticated as the Brahmanical culture to which they are contrasted.

I am also bothered by the use of the term ?Sanskritization,? It is, in my opinion, a simplification of a very complex series of processes and interactions and is, in the end, quite misleading. In most areas, India has a cellular culture. Many different groups with varied identities, histories, practices, social views, etc. exist side by side, interacting with each other in complex ways. People may get status by eating more meat, less meat, or no meat at all, and the same goes for many other practices, beliefs and customs. It is perhaps useful to point out that in a place like Tamil Nadu, about 25% of the people are Dalits (3% are Brahmins). They have their own social hierarchies, no doubt, but they are not driven by ?Sanskritization.? Nor, for the most part, are the great majority of the rest of the people, all of whom are considered ?Sudras? by the Brahmins. George Hart

On Jul 7, 2015, at 5:38 AM, Artur Karp <karp at UW.EDU.PL<mailto:karp at UW.EDU.PL>> wrote:

> two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation".

The question is: who functions in the role of priests at Kamakhya Devi?

Priests of local tribal cults?

If not, I would rather see there not "tribalization", but rather "controlled Sanskritization" of tribal cultural elements, undertaken not by the tribals, but by the local representatives of Sanskritic culture. Motivated, as you have noticed, by the political need to communicate on one hand with the local population, on the other - with the broader network of sub-continental cult/pilgrimage centers.

Artur K.

2015-07-07 12:20 GMT+02:00 Paolo Eugenio Rosati <paoloe.rosati at gmail.com<mailto:paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>>:
I complitely agree.
But why "we" talk about "sanskritisation" phenomena if a goddess and her devotional cult are dominated by tribal elements? I would like to describe this goddesses as "tribalised", maybe because they represent a manipulation of the "mainstream" Hindu Devi, to whom are overimposed tribal elements.

If the sanskritisation (or brahmanisation) process can be described as a vertical axis where are different degrees of sanskritisation; maybe we could describe this axis with two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation"... obviously the dialectic between cultures bring to hybrid phenomenon, but in my opinion the Hindu-Assamese culture is widely dominated by tribal traditions, and this probably depend by ancient politic needs.

Best,
Paolo

P.S.: Maybe someone has a pdf copy of Kunal Chakrabarti "Religious Processes: The Puranas and the Making of a Regional Tradition" (2001).


On 7 July 2015 at 11:25, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl<mailto:karp at uw.edu.pl>> wrote:
Dear Paolo,

> So that are we sure that Kamahya is a sanskritised goddess? Or should we consider the reverse process? Doesn't seem that were the Hindus to emulate the tribal-men incorporating tribal worship elements?

To my mind, both.

A perfect example of a dialogic situation, whatever the motivation behind the move to set up a new, structurally enriched place of worship and a newly conceived object of veneration.

Best,

Artur



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--
Paolo E. Rosati
Oriental Archaeologist
PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa
Section: South Asian Studies
Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
'Sapienza' University of Rome
paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it<mailto:paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it>
paoloe.rosati at gmail.com<mailto:paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>
Mobile: (+39) 3387383472<tel:%28%2B39%29%203387383472>
Skype: paoloe.rosati

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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Jul  7 21:33:08 2015
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 16:33:08 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <56FAA727-A955-42DA-BBD3-C5A21F02289E@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <C0AB54CD-8D44-4A44-ADE4-7EB242B9CAE5@aol.com>

Regarding Tamil Nattukkottai Chettiars (aka Nagarathar community), they have been the most important supporters of Brahminical institutions like the Sankaracharya mathas and temples.

See http://www.kamakoti.org/kamakoti/stotra/acharyascall/bookview.php?chapnum=63 <http://www.kamakoti.org/kamakoti/stotra/acharyascall/bookview.php?chapnum=63>

See http://www.webxchange.com/koviloor/histext.html <http://www.webxchange.com/koviloor/histext.html>
The Veerasekara Gnana Desikar mentioned in the second link is the same as Veerappa Swamigal mentioned by Kanchi Sankaracharya in the in the first link.

Also see http://www.kovilur.com/university.htm <http://www.kovilur.com/university.htm>, an initiative of the institution founded and headed by a person belonging to the Chettiar community.

Also, see http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4233 <http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4233> 

One can judge from these links if Chettiars eschewed Sanskrit.

The level of Sanskritization among Tamils today may be gauged from the onamastics of Tamil proper names.

Regards,
Palaniappan


> On Jul 7, 2015, at 2:54 PM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:
> 
> Dear Timothy,
> 
> I?ll grant your point that ?tribal? is not necessarily pejorative, though it has been used that way. The bigger problem with it is that it is nebulous. Were the people who composed the Rig Veda ?tribal?? Is the Rig Veda a ?cult? document? What would this mean? Certainly one could argue that the Rig Veda was both of these things. Instead of ?tribal? would it not be germane to actually name the group (or ?tribe?) involved? That would certainly make things clearer. ?Folk? is another problematic term. Instead of ?folk? it would be good to be more specific. (And let?s not get into ?little? and ?great? tradition?.)
> 
> The problem with the term ?Sanskritization? in my view is that it?s a mask or calk put over a system that has an almost endless number of processes going on at once. If a South-Indian Brahmin goes into a village and asks people about their culture, they will tell him something they think will make him respect them. It may or may not reflect what they actually do or believe. If an upper-caste non-Brahmin does the same thing, they will probably say something quite different?and that may not be accurate either. In Tamil Nadu among some groups (e.g. Chettiars), the use of Tamil and the Tamil tradition is a sign of higher status. They eschew Sanskrit. And in the Tamil language, good formal writing, whether by Brahmins or others, scrupulously avoids Sanskrit words. Even in a language like Malayalam, which uses practically the entire Sanskrit lexicon (and, indeed, extends it), using indigenous Malayalam words does not lower the status of writing, as a glance at the Manipravalam works in the language shows. If you go among such many non-Brahmin groups in South India, you?ll find that the last thing they wish to do is emulate Brahmins. That, at least, is my experience, not only with Tamil groups but also with people from Andhra and Kerala. There is no doubt that the work of Srinivas has validity, but I think it?s important to realize that he brings out only one perspective on a very complex system. If Sanskritization were as thorough-going as you suggest, 90% or more of the Indian population would not be non-vegetarian. I am not against giving the Brahmins their due. Their influence has been pervasive and long-lasting. But at the same time, village India is full of worlds in which Brahmins and Brahmanical ideas scarcely enter. To see the entire culture in terms of Brahmins or Sanskritization is simply inaccurate, in my opinion. George
>    



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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 21:53:51 2015
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 15:53:51 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sankara-vijaya Resources Available
Message-ID: <CAPAZekaOLQqhsw5zig5L56Mt2pZ20nr2WKDgw__z0GS9crJzfQ@mail.gmail.com>

When a question relating to a ?a?kara-vijaya came up here recently, I did a
quick online search and found that very few of these biographies of
?a?kar?c?rya were available on the web. So I have now scanned the ones I
had and posted them, along with three scanned by others, with the Sanskrit
Hindu texts at
http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/. Besides
the two well-known ones by Anant?nandagiri and by M?dhava, and also the one
by Vy?s?cala, these include seven edited by W. R. Antarkar.


Antarkar had made a comprehensive study of all the available
?a?kara-vijayas, both in print and in manuscript (then sixteen in total),
for his 1960 University of Poona PhD thesis: ?a?kara-vijayas: A Comparative
and a Critical Study. In subsequent years he published several journal
articles pertaining to this topic, and editions of seven lesser-known
?a?kara-vijayas (hopefully I did not miss any when I gathered them about
fifteen years ago). But his thesis remained unpublished.


A few days ago by chance I saw that Antarkar?s thesis has been published,
and this was back in 2003! This book is even now not listed on WorldCat,
which only shows the 1960 thesis (and that is held only at one library). A
scan of this book, in two parts (the thesis, and later articles as
appendices), is available at:
https://sites.google.com/site/hindulibrary/document-list


<https://sites.google.com/site/hindulibrary/document-list>

In view of the disputes around the ?a?kara ma?has that we were just
reminded of by Dean?s post, it may be worth noting that this book is
scholarly research with no connection to any ma?ha, contrary to
appearances. As may be seen by the photos of the adhipatis of the Kanchi
Kamakoti ?a?kara ma?ha in its opening pages, this book was published by an
affiliate of this ma?ha. I am very grateful to everyone involved in the
publication of Antarkar?s thesis for making it available at long last.


The extant ?a?kara-vijayas are comparatively late, and their stories often
conflict with each other. One of the latest (nineteenth century) was
published in Germany in 1992: *?a?kara-mand?ra-saurabha: Eine Legende ?ber
das Leben des Philosophen ?a?kara, *Text, ?bersetzung, Einleitung, by Anton
Ungemach. Antarkar showed in separate articles that the extant
?a?kara-vijaya attributed to ?nandagiri (1961 article
<http://easterntradition.org/antarkar%202.pdf>) and the one attributed to
Vidy?ra?ya (1972article <http://easterntradition.org/antarkar%203.pdf>) are
later works, not written by those authors. Antarkar commented at the end of
his 1961 article: ?not one of the 16/17 biographies of ?a?kara I have
worked upon inspires confidence in its authenticity to the expected
degree.? However, Antarkar provided good evidence that two old
?a?kara-vijayas still existed in the recent past: B?hat-?a?kara-vijaya by
Citsukha and Pr?c?na-?a?kara-vijaya by ?nandagiri (1960 article
<http://easterntradition.org/antarkar%201.pdf>). Despite his efforts, he
could not obtain them, and these have still not come to light as far as I
know.

Best regards,


David Reigle

Colorado, U.S.A.


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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Jul  7 22:23:09 2015
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 17:23:09 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sankara-vijaya Resources Available
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekaOLQqhsw5zig5L56Mt2pZ20nr2WKDgw__z0GS9crJzfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D2DF29A-24F6-4802-ADEC-199DAC496A31@aol.com>

I presume you have looked at "Conflicting hagiographies and history: The place of ?a?karavijaya texts in Advaita tradition,? by Vidyasankar Sundaresan in International Journal of Hindu Studies <http://www.researchgate.net/publication/journal/1022-4556_International_Journal_of_Hindu_Studies> 07/2000; 4(2):109-184.

Regards,
Palaniappan

> On Jul 7, 2015, at 4:53 PM, David and Nancy Reigle <dnreigle at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> When a question relating to a ?a?kara-vijaya came up here recently, I did a quick online search and found that very few of these biographies of ?a?kar?c?rya were available on the web. So I have now scanned the ones I had and posted them, along with three scanned by others, with the Sanskrit Hindu texts at http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/ <http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/>. Besides the two well-known ones by Anant?nandagiri and by M?dhava, and also the one by Vy?s?cala, these include seven edited by W. R. Antarkar. 
> 
> 
> 
> Antarkar had made a comprehensive study of all the available ?a?kara-vijayas, both in print and in manuscript (then sixteen in total), for his 1960 University of Poona PhD thesis: ?a?kara-vijayas: A Comparative and a Critical Study. In subsequent years he published several journal articles pertaining to this topic, and editions of seven lesser-known ?a?kara-vijayas (hopefully I did not miss any when I gathered them about fifteen years ago). But his thesis remained unpublished.
> 
> 
> 
> A few days ago by chance I saw that Antarkar?s thesis has been published, and this was back in 2003! This book is even now not listed on WorldCat, which only shows the 1960 thesis (and that is held only at one library). A scan of this book, in two parts (the thesis, and later articles as appendices), is available at: https://sites.google.com/site/hindulibrary/document-list <https://sites.google.com/site/hindulibrary/document-list>
> 
>  <https://sites.google.com/site/hindulibrary/document-list>
> In view of the disputes around the ?a?kara ma?has that we were just reminded of by Dean?s post, it may be worth noting that this book is scholarly research with no connection to any ma?ha, contrary to appearances. As may be seen by the photos of the adhipatis of the Kanchi Kamakoti ?a?kara ma?ha in its opening pages, this book was published by an affiliate of this ma?ha. I am very grateful to everyone involved in the publication of Antarkar?s thesis for making it available at long last.
> 
> 
> 
> The extant ?a?kara-vijayas are comparatively late, and their stories often conflict with each other. One of the latest (nineteenth century) was published in Germany in 1992: ?a?kara-mand?ra-saurabha: Eine Legende ?ber das Leben des Philosophen ?a?kara, Text, ?bersetzung, Einleitung, by Anton Ungemach. Antarkar showed in separate articles that the extant ?a?kara-vijaya attributed to ?nandagiri (1961 article <http://easterntradition.org/antarkar%202.pdf>) and the one attributed to Vidy?ra?ya (1972article <http://easterntradition.org/antarkar%203.pdf>) are later works, not written by those authors. Antarkar commented at the end of his 1961 article: ?not one of the 16/17 biographies of ?a?kara I have worked upon inspires confidence in its authenticity to the expected degree.? However, Antarkar provided good evidence that two old ?a?kara-vijayas still existed in the recent past: B?hat-?a?kara-vijaya by Citsukha and Pr?c?na-?a?kara-vijaya by ?nandagiri (1960 article <http://easterntradition.org/antarkar%201.pdf>). Despite his efforts, he could not obtain them, and these have still not come to light as far as I know.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> David Reigle
> Colorado, U.S.A.
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Tue Jul  7 22:51:53 2015
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 22:51:53 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <D1C18E40.1E585%lubint@wlu.edu>
Message-ID: <DUB114-W1102201B8E3241912D5485DA5920@phx.gbl>

Thanks Tim, I appreciate everything you say. I may add here a reference to the work of Georg Pfeffer, who has done a lot to define tribal society in India social-anthropological terms.

A question of demographics: is it really a fact "that Brahmins are [...] a small minority in most places"? I had had the impression that in certain regions, Brahmins are actually the largest single social group, depending of course on how one classifies. I had been tempted to explain this (if it is true) with reference to the interface between j?ti and var?a classification scheme, with "Brahmin" being a var?a term often talked about as though it were a j?ti, whereas in the case of all other castes classification (and census?) tends to be done in j?ti terms proper. In other words, j?ti distinctions within the class of Brahmins tend to be ignored in discussions such as the present one, whereas they are not for all other j?tis. And if indeed we pool all Brahmins j?tis together, I had thought that this pool ends up representing substantial percentages of population in given regions.

I will be grateful if colleagues could enlighten me on this issue.

Best wishes,

Arlo Griffiths
?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient

From: LubinT at wlu.edu
To: glhart at berkeley.edu; indology at list.indology.info
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 19:03:38 +0000
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes






Prof. Hart,



The spirit of your point is commendable, but I would like to urge some caution on the specifics.  First, the example you cite in the first paragraph are not quite analogous.  The "n-word? and ?untouchable? are labels exclusively used to denigrate and enforce
 hierarchical subordination.  In the case of the word ?tribal? (and of course ?tribe?), it really much more depends on context.  In anthropological and social historical scholarly discourse it is usually intended as a value-neutral descriptor for a sort of
 social and political organization, and many of the cultural factors that tend to accompany tribal organization.  In other contexts, especially in popular usage, it can take a pejorative tone, but even there, no necessarily, I think.  And of course I don?t
 mean to overlook the fact that earlier (esp. colonial-era) scholarship betrayed some ?unscientific,? prejudiced attitudes or assumptions about such groups.  But we know that they were apt to betray such attitudes about other Indian groups as well.  For that
 matter, Brahmins often got tarred as obscurantist, superstitious, etc.



To my mind, the bigger problem with the category of ?tribal? is that it over-homogenizes.  But I don?t think ?indigenous? solves that problem, and may get us into further murkiness if it is understood as ?aboriginal? or ??div?s?,? since that raises often
 unanswerable questions about who got here first, who has prior claim, etc., not to mention the politics of Indo-Aryan or Dravidian nationalism.  But there are certainly times when one needs some word to use when observing common (if not universal) features
 of such groups.



As for ?Sanskritization,? this concept still has a lot of utility in my view, and the usual objections raised against it, including those offered here, seem to miss the point.  Sanskritization need not imply the presence of a fully homogeneous culture,
 the presence of a large or increasing number of Brahmins, or the actual adoption of Sanskrit language.  If refers either:



(1) to a "bottom-up? process in which a particular social group publicly begins to adopt certain practices or norms otherwise associated with putatively ?higher? castes, which usually includes the adoption of ritual or dietary practices advocated in Sanskrit
 texts (though direct appeal to Sanskrit texts is not necessarily involved ? the whole process may be mediated through vernacular sources, though part of the process tends to be an increasing use of ?Sanskritic? terms and registers of the vernacular.  (This
 was what Srinivas was talking about.)



or (2) to a more ?top-down? process in which political or other social elites adopt a policy of fostering ritual, dietary, etc., norms derived from Sanskrit discourses or the usage of Brahmins and other already-more-Sanskritized groups.  (See Eschmann
 & Kulke et al.?s Orissa Research Project publications, but many many others.  I would mention Sontheimer on the worship of Kha??ob? as well, and the whole sthalapur??a phenomenon.)



Both types of process may be involved simultaneously, of course.  Now discomfort with the word ?Sanskrit? has led to some people preferring to speak of Hinduization (which may be appropriate where markedly un-Sanskritic cultural features are adopted by
 groups such as the ones habitually called tribes in India, but in practice it seems to me usually to amount to the same thing as Sanskritization.   One sometimes sees ?Brahmanized,? which is all right if one is speaking of the spread of loosely ?Brahmanical?
 ideas or practices, but it is more misleading insofar as it seems to imply that Brahmins are the direct model of emulation, rather than certain habits (e.g., vegetarianism, patronage of Brahmin priests, use of Sanskrit mantras, wearing of the thread) that
 can be observed in use more widely.



Other directions of emulation certainly exist. Kulke, speaking of Brahmin zamindars emulating K?atriyas, wrote of ?K?atriya-ization.?



Anyway, the fact that Brahmins are such a small minority in most places, and ??dras and other groups so numerous in comparison is no argument against the existence of Sanskritization as a social phenomenon or political policy in particular times and places.
  It has taken many different forms, ensuring that India remains a diverse patchwork of cultural cells.  It is just one of the factors in the perpetual negotiations of identity and status in the Indian cultural sphere.  Indeed, the fact that it has been one
 of the features of that sphere for three millennia despite the small number of actual Brahmins and their changing fortunes over time makes the phenomenon worthy of our attention.  It should not be ignored or denied simply out of a sentiment of ?let's leave
 off talking about Brahmins and Sanskrit already!? or ?let?s give group X its due, finally.?



Best,






Timothy Lubin

Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, Virginia 24450




http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint 
http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin 
https://twitter.com/TimothyLubin





?


















From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu>

Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 1:46 PM

To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>

Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes







Might I gently suggest that words like ?tribal? and ?tribal cults? should be avoided. Like ?untouchable? and the n-word, these words have long been used to marginalize, demean, and patronize various ethnic groups?and they are so nebulous that
 they have no real meaning (for me, at least). ?Indigenous? might be a good substitute. Words like ?tribal? and ?tribal cult? in my opinion serve to obscure the fact that the groups they are applied to are comprised of human beings whose cultures are quite
 as complex and sophisticated as the Brahmanical culture to which they are contrasted.



I am also bothered by the use of the term ?Sanskritization,? It is, in my opinion, a simplification of a very complex series of processes and interactions and is, in the end, quite misleading. In most areas, India has a cellular culture. Many different groups
 with varied identities, histories, practices, social views, etc. exist side by side, interacting with each other in complex ways. People may get status by eating more meat, less meat, or no meat at all, and the same goes for many other practices, beliefs and
 customs. It is perhaps useful to point out that in a place like Tamil Nadu, about 25% of the people are Dalits (3% are Brahmins). They have their own social hierarchies, no doubt, but they are not driven by ?Sanskritization.? Nor, for the most part, are the
 great majority of the rest of the people, all of whom are considered ?Sudras? by the Brahmins. George Hart




On Jul 7, 2015, at 5:38 AM, Artur Karp <karp at UW.EDU.PL> wrote:


> two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation".



The question is: who functions in the role of priests at Kamakhya Devi?



Priests of local tribal cults?



If not, I would rather see there not "tribalization", but rather "controlled Sanskritization" of tribal cultural elements, undertaken not by the tribals, but by the local representatives
 of Sanskritic culture. Motivated, as you have noticed, by the political need to communicate on one hand with the local population, on the other - with the broader network of sub-continental cult/pilgrimage centers. 



Artur K.



2015-07-07 12:20 GMT+02:00 Paolo Eugenio Rosati 
<paoloe.rosati at gmail.com>:



I complitely agree.
But why "we" talk about "sanskritisation" phenomena if a goddess and her devotional cult are dominated by tribal elements? I would like to describe this goddesses as "tribalised", maybe because they represent a manipulation of the "mainstream" Hindu
 Devi, to whom are overimposed tribal elements. 
 
If the sanskritisation (or brahmanisation) process can be described as a vertical axis where are different degrees of sanskritisation; maybe we could describe this axis with two poles: one "sanskritisation", the other "tribalisation"... obviously
 the dialectic between cultures bring to hybrid phenomenon, but in my opinion the Hindu-Assamese culture is widely dominated by tribal traditions, and this probably depend by ancient politic needs.
 
Best,
Paolo
 
P.S.: Maybe someone has a pdf copy of Kunal Chakrabarti "Religious Processes: The Puranas and the Making of a Regional Tradition" (2001).
 





On 7 July 2015 at 11:25, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:






Dear Paolo,



> So that are we sure that Kamahya is a sanskritised goddess? Or should we consider the reverse process? Doesn't seem that were the Hindus to emulate the tribal-men incorporating tribal worship elements?






To my mind, both. 



A perfect example of a dialogic situation, whatever the motivation behind the move to set up a new, structurally enriched place of worship and a newly conceived object of veneration. 



Best, 




Artur











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-- 














Paolo E. Rosati









Oriental Archaeologist
PhD candidate in Civilisations of Asia & Africa

Section: South Asian Studies
Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)

'Sapienza' University of Rome



paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it

paoloe.rosati at gmail.com

Mobile: 
(+39) 3387383472
Skype: paoloe.rosati

















































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From glhart at berkeley.edu  Wed Jul  8 00:38:22 2015
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 15 17:38:22 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <C0AB54CD-8D44-4A44-ADE4-7EB242B9CAE5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <53177317-5341-46F2-AA65-333011AD5C23@berkeley.edu>

Very true ? you can take a look at the Chettiar Temple (Thendayuthapani) temple in Singapore: http://www.sttemple.com/sri-thendayuthapani-temple/about-st-temple.html <http://www.sttemple.com/sri-thendayuthapani-temple/about-st-temple.html>. My point is not that Sanskritization does not exist. It obviously does, and it?s a powerful force. My point is rather that scholars studying the dynamics of traditional and modern India need to be careful of seeing too much through the lens of Sanskritization ? which is what the discussion initiated by Nagaraj Paturi was getting at. Also, the dynamics of what we call Sanskritization are not purely Brahmanical. Some elements (vegetarianism) are Jain, some seem indigenous. Not too many go back to the Vedas, I think. Sorry for so many posts today ? I hope I?ve started an interesting discussion and look forward to other comments and ideas on the subject. George

> On Jul 7, 2015, at 2:33 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> Regarding Tamil Nattukkottai Chettiars (aka Nagarathar community), they have been the most important supporters of Brahminical institutions like the Sankaracharya mathas and temples.
> 
> See http://www.kamakoti.org/kamakoti/stotra/acharyascall/bookview.php?chapnum=63 <http://www.kamakoti.org/kamakoti/stotra/acharyascall/bookview.php?chapnum=63>
> 
> See http://www.webxchange.com/koviloor/histext.html <http://www.webxchange.com/koviloor/histext.html>
> The Veerasekara Gnana Desikar mentioned in the second link is the same as Veerappa Swamigal mentioned by Kanchi Sankaracharya in the in the first link.
> 
> Also see http://www.kovilur.com/university.htm <http://www.kovilur.com/university.htm>, an initiative of the institution founded and headed by a person belonging to the Chettiar community.
> 
> Also, see http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4233 <http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4233> 
> 
> One can judge from these links if Chettiars eschewed Sanskrit.
> 
> The level of Sanskritization among Tamils today may be gauged from the onamastics of Tamil proper names.
> 
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
> 
> 
>> On Jul 7, 2015, at 2:54 PM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu <mailto:glhart at berkeley.edu>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Timothy,
>> 
>> I?ll grant your point that ?tribal? is not necessarily pejorative, though it has been used that way. The bigger problem with it is that it is nebulous. Were the people who composed the Rig Veda ?tribal?? Is the Rig Veda a ?cult? document? What would this mean? Certainly one could argue that the Rig Veda was both of these things. Instead of ?tribal? would it not be germane to actually name the group (or ?tribe?) involved? That would certainly make things clearer. ?Folk? is another problematic term. Instead of ?folk? it would be good to be more specific. (And let?s not get into ?little? and ?great? tradition?.)
>> 
>> The problem with the term ?Sanskritization? in my view is that it?s a mask or calk put over a system that has an almost endless number of processes going on at once. If a South-Indian Brahmin goes into a village and asks people about their culture, they will tell him something they think will make him respect them. It may or may not reflect what they actually do or believe. If an upper-caste non-Brahmin does the same thing, they will probably say something quite different?and that may not be accurate either. In Tamil Nadu among some groups (e.g. Chettiars), the use of Tamil and the Tamil tradition is a sign of higher status. They eschew Sanskrit. And in the Tamil language, good formal writing, whether by Brahmins or others, scrupulously avoids Sanskrit words. Even in a language like Malayalam, which uses practically the entire Sanskrit lexicon (and, indeed, extends it), using indigenous Malayalam words does not lower the status of writing, as a glance at the Manipravalam works in the language shows. If you go among such many non-Brahmin groups in South India, you?ll find that the last thing they wish to do is emulate Brahmins. That, at least, is my experience, not only with Tamil groups but also with people from Andhra and Kerala. There is no doubt that the work of Srinivas has validity, but I think it?s important to realize that he brings out only one perspective on a very complex system. If Sanskritization were as thorough-going as you suggest, 90% or more of the Indian population would not be non-vegetarian. I am not against giving the Brahmins their due. Their influence has been pervasive and long-lasting. But at the same time, village India is full of worlds in which Brahmins and Brahmanical ideas scarcely enter. To see the entire culture in terms of Brahmins or Sanskritization is simply inaccurate, in my opinion. George
>>    
> 



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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Jul  8 02:10:15 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 15 07:40:15 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eaCZ3GX1HheHkGebUgDon=wq2wERX6fb6KTPRgnRQwwAQ@mail.gmail.com>

> which is what the discussion initiated by Nagaraj Paturi was getting at

I do not want to take the credit for bringing 'Sanskritization' into
discussion. It goes to Prof. Artur Karp who responded to my post of
suggesting Marxist sources as useful for the researcher by saying

>Scores of publications on the processes related to Sanskritization. It
>would seem odd to designate the authors (such as M. N. Srinivas, Milton
>Singer, Yogendra Singh) as Marxists.

> The bibliography on Sanskritization /'Hinduization'/ 'Brahmanization' [as
of 2006] at:

I even clarified by saying :

>I did not name Professors MN Srinivas, Milton Singer etc. because the
>issues they were handling are the ones such as Sanskritization that are not
>relevant in the context of the present thread.

The researcher himself wanted to see if Kamakhya was a Sanskritized goddess
or was it the reverse processBut somehow many of the colleagues showed
interest in the word/concept which has many meanings today other than those
of MN Srinivas.

But that was an interesting and useful discussion.

I completely appreciate the efforts of Prof. George Hart in underlining the
complexity of the intercultural processes on ground in India that can not
be limited to the word/concept of Sanskritization.

At the same time , Prof. Tim Lubin's balancing observation :

>And strictly speaking, though the use of obvious tatsamas can be avoided,
it is >hardly possible to speak Tamil without using words that originated as
> Indo-Aryan loans (e.g., from Prakrit).

was timely.

Good discussion.

Thanks.








-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Jul  8 06:33:13 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 15 12:03:13 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eafrHkz+RsWbpt+=hg+HErVBuzc5o_Akf0rQ1p3oocHwA@mail.gmail.com>

>And if indeed we pool all Brahmins j?tis together, I had thought that this
pool ends up representing substantial percentages of population in given
regions.
Dear Prof. Arlo Griffiths,

Can you elaborate more on what you mean by all Brahmin jatis?

Among Telugu speaking Brahmins, there is the distinction between Vaidikis
(Brahmins who did not move into administrative occupation) and Niyogis
(Brahmins who moved into administrative occupation). Similar such
distinctions appear to exist in other parts of India too.

Are you keeping such sub-caste categories in mind?

At least in south India, there are a big number of villages where there is
no Brahmin of any variety.

The small percentages of Brahmins shown for statistical purposes are all
from census where a person belonging to any sub-variety of Brahmin to have
claimed during census enumerations to be non-Brahmin.

You probably have some other kind of data in mind when you say Brahmin
jatis. Can you please elaborate?

-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Jul  8 06:38:10 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 15 12:08:10 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eaZ2AK7bt=K+vhXHhBya-ybxo-R9Hx9vxOStaU4Db_sKQ@mail.gmail.com>

Correction:

The small percentages of Brahmins shown for statistical purposes are all
from census where a person belonging to any sub-variety of Brahmin to have
claimed during census enumerations to be non-Brahmin.

should be

The small percentages of Brahmins shown for statistical purposes are all
from census where a person belonging to any sub-variety of Brahmin* can not
be expected *to have claimed during census enumerations to be a non-Brahmin.



-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Wed Jul  8 07:11:57 2015
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 15 17:11:57 +1000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eafrHkz+RsWbpt+=hg+HErVBuzc5o_Akf0rQ1p3oocHwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrAn4soOBOFWZPCG_um6nrLvOnXsU0rUWF1tk6FZYLuYng@mail.gmail.com>

The following might prove insightful to this discussion.

Wendy Doniger explores the term 'deshification' as a counterpoint to
Sanskritisation. She provides a succinct overview of the idea. I'm not sure
if it is her own idea or not?

If your copy was pulped or disappeared like a thief in the night then you
can scroll down and check pages 5-6 here
http://www.amazon.com/The-Hindus-An-Alternative-History/dp/014311669X#reader_014311669X
to read it for yourself.



All the best,

Patrick McCartney

PhD Candidate
School of Culture, History & Language
College of the Asia-Pacific
The Australian National University
Canberra, Australia, 0200


Skype - psdmccartney

Australia:  +61 487 398   354
Germany: +49 157 5469 4045
India:        +91 98 73 893 945


   - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
   <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
   -
*https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
   <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney> *

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZHJVkhVBPc
<http://goog_371544488>

<http://goog_371544488>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg

http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g

http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be



On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> >And if indeed we pool all Brahmins j?tis together, I had thought that
> this pool ends up representing substantial percentages of population in
> given regions.
> Dear Prof. Arlo Griffiths,
>
> Can you elaborate more on what you mean by all Brahmin jatis?
>
> Among Telugu speaking Brahmins, there is the distinction between Vaidikis
> (Brahmins who did not move into administrative occupation) and Niyogis
> (Brahmins who moved into administrative occupation). Similar such
> distinctions appear to exist in other parts of India too.
>
> Are you keeping such sub-caste categories in mind?
>
> At least in south India, there are a big number of villages where there is
> no Brahmin of any variety.
>
> The small percentages of Brahmins shown for statistical purposes are all
> from census where a person belonging to any sub-variety of Brahmin to have
> claimed during census enumerations to be non-Brahmin.
>
> You probably have some other kind of data in mind when you say Brahmin
> jatis. Can you please elaborate?
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  8 09:26:21 2015
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 15 09:26:21 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eafrHkz+RsWbpt+=hg+HErVBuzc5o_Akf0rQ1p3oocHwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB114-W100490A6E140C504BE2181CA5910@phx.gbl>

Dear Professor Paturi,

Thanks for this email and separate correction. By "Brahmin j?tis" I mean endogamous groups who all claim Brahmin status but do not now (or did not traditionally) intermarry. To stay with your example, if it is true that Vaidikis and Niyogis do not intermarry, then they would in my understanding be separate j?tis. In Orissa, among the Vaidikas certainly do not intermarry with non-Vaidika Brahmins, and even among the Vaidikas, I believe that at least in the past Brahmins of the different Vedas tended not to intermarry, so that each Veda forms an endogamous group. I suppose this is what you mean by sub-caste, but it has always seemed to me most useful to retain the term 'caste' for any single endogamous group, to take 'caste' as English translation of 'j?ti', and to consider Brahmins as together forming a var?a (i.e., not a 'caste' but a superordinate category); if this works, then I am not sure we need to use a term like 'sub-caste'. Please let me know if you have any objection.

Would anybody be able to confirm that also for North India, census reports give only very low percentages of the total population as claiming Brahmin status?

Best wishes,

Arlo Griffiths



Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 12:03:13 +0530
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com
To: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes

>And if indeed we pool all Brahmins j?tis together, I had thought that this pool ends up representing substantial percentages of population in given regions.
Dear Prof. Arlo Griffiths, Can you elaborate more on what you mean by all Brahmin jatis? Among Telugu speaking Brahmins, there is the distinction between Vaidikis (Brahmins who did not move into administrative occupation) and Niyogis (Brahmins who moved into administrative occupation). Similar such distinctions appear to exist in other parts of India too.  Are you keeping such sub-caste categories in mind?  At least in south India, there are a big number of villages where there is no Brahmin of any variety.  The small percentages of Brahmins shown for statistical purposes are all from census where a person belonging to any sub-variety of Brahmin to have claimed during census enumerations to be non-Brahmin.  You probably have some other kind of data in mind when you say Brahmin jatis. Can you please elaborate?  
-- 
Prof.Nagaraj PaturiHyderabad-500044


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) 		 	   		  


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Jul  8 10:18:23 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 15 15:48:23 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <DUB114-W100490A6E140C504BE2181CA5910@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eYTzinhXPi3PFX+RLMn4mC1Sgf9pFvWhCd=juGw-N5qXQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sharing a bar diagram of Brahmin population represented state-wise. This
may not be highly accurate. But gives a rough idea.

On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Arlo Griffiths <arlogriffiths at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Professor Paturi,
>
> Thanks for this email and separate correction. By "Brahmin j?tis" I mean
> endogamous groups who all claim Brahmin status but do not now (or did not
> traditionally) intermarry. To stay with your example, if it is true that
> Vaidikis and Niyogis do not intermarry, then they would in my understanding
> be separate j?tis. In Orissa, among the Vaidikas certainly do not
> intermarry with non-Vaidika Brahmins, and even among the Vaidikas, I
> believe that at least in the past Brahmins of the different Vedas tended
> not to intermarry, so that each Veda forms an endogamous group. I suppose
> this is what you mean by sub-caste, but it has always seemed to me most
> useful to retain the term 'caste' for any single endogamous group, to take
> 'caste' as English translation of 'j?ti', and to consider Brahmins as
> together forming a var?a (i.e., not a 'caste' but a superordinate
> category); if this works, then I am not sure we need to use a term like
> 'sub-caste'. Please let me know if you have any objection.
>
> Would anybody be able to confirm that also for North India, census reports
> give only very low percentages of the total population as claiming Brahmin
> status?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Arlo Griffiths
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 12:03:13 +0530
> From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com
> To: indology at list.indology.info
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
>
>
> >And if indeed we pool all Brahmins j?tis together, I had thought that
> this pool ends up representing substantial percentages of population in
> given regions.
> Dear Prof. Arlo Griffiths,
>
> Can you elaborate more on what you mean by all Brahmin jatis?
>
> Among Telugu speaking Brahmins, there is the distinction between Vaidikis
> (Brahmins who did not move into administrative occupation) and Niyogis
> (Brahmins who moved into administrative occupation). Similar such
> distinctions appear to exist in other parts of India too.
>
> Are you keeping such sub-caste categories in mind?
>
> At least in south India, there are a big number of villages where there is
> no Brahmin of any variety.
>
> The small percentages of Brahmins shown for statistical purposes are all
> from census where a person belonging to any sub-variety of Brahmin to have
> claimed during census enumerations to be non-Brahmin.
>
> You probably have some other kind of data in mind when you say Brahmin
> jatis. Can you please elaborate?
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
>
> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages
> to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where
> you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Wed Jul  8 10:31:50 2015
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 15 12:31:50 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tigers and Goats: A quick report on the World Sanskrit Conference, Bangkok 2015
In-Reply-To: <HK2PR06MB1012914E93C71DB19983A3DBAE920@HK2PR06MB1012.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoD2SxOxe+ztDbnb71ASJKCvPmpUh_qpuUqMc-qNx0GxLg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear McComas,
Thanks for this quick and, I think, quite appropriate report.
I would take exception to two formulations: neither Indology nor
linguistics and other major relevant disciplines are in a universally
accepted progressive research programme, but perhaps you did not intend it
that way:

in THE broader theoretical or academic context >>> in A broader theoretical
or academic context (to be specified)

how it contributes to THE big picture >>> how it contributes to A LARGER
picture

Regarding your last point (nice prospect):
as you explained in your Sanskrit interview in Bangkok that Australia is
nowadays full of sanskrit-, yoga- and other teachers,
I would like to ask in an ardha?loka:

??????????????????? ????????????????? ?


Best, Jan



*Jan E.M. HOUBEN*

Directeur d??tudes

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

*?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques

CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

www.ephe.fr


On 7 July 2015 at 08:26, McComas Taylor <McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au> wrote:

>   Tigers and Goats
>
>  A quick report on the World Sanskrit Conference, Bangkok 2015
>
>  McComas Taylor
>
>  Western Marxist Orientalist scholars are chewing up Sanskrit as a tiger
> would devour a goat, digesting what is needed and excreting the remains. So
> said well-known Indian fire-brand Rajiv Malhotra at the opening of the 16th
> World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok on 28 June 2015. Many of the 600 or so
> attendees were also surprised to learn that international scholarship on
> Sanskrit is fundamentally perverted by the ideas of Giambattista Vico
> (1688?1744).  The world is neatly divided into secular leftist
> ?outsiders? (Westerners and many Indians who have been coopted by the
> system) who regard Sanskrit as dead, oppressive and political, and
> ?insiders? for whom Sanskrit as alive, liberating and sacred.
>
>  The conference, which received a very substantial subsidy from the
> Indian government, was officially opened by HRH Princess Maha Chakri
> Sirishorn, herself a student of Sanskrit. Held in the glitzy Renaissance
> Hotel over for five days, papers began at 8am and ran until 6pm, but there
> were plenty of good meals and cultural entertainment to leaven the
> scholarly dough.
>
>  My colleague Prof Elizabeth Rohlman from the University of Calgary and I
> co-convened the first ever independent panel on pur??as (foundational texts
> of Hindu mythology), which produced excellent results. There is a growing
> awareness that the pur??as represent a gold-mine of understudied texts
> (note the exploitative ?outsider? turn of phrase here).
>
>  As is usual with these mega-events, there was a full spectrum of papers
> and conversations. The presentations ranged from paradigm-changing to
> time-wasting. I jotted down eight Really Good Ideas in the front of my
> notebook, which constitutes an overall success.
>
>  Among the many high points were the formal disputation in Sanskrit by
> tradition scholars on the significance of *?abda* ? ?word? or ?sound?,
> and a very lively Sanskrit poetry reading session, including poems in Haiku
> format and a humorous take on mobile phones. Spoken Sanskrit was
> everywhere?it is always a pleasure to it used as a lingua franca among
> scholars who have no other language in common, as has been the case for the
> last two or three millennia.
>
>  The recurrent problem with many papers is that scholars consistently
> fail to place their work in the broader theoretical or academic context.
> Papers either consist of data with no theory, theory with no data and those
> with neither (i.e. story-telling). Sometimes it seemed as if no one read
> anyone else?s work. Of course we all love to chase down our own
> rabbit-holes, but if we can?t explain why our work is important or
> interesting, or how it contributes to the big picture, one wonders why it
> is presented at all.
>
>  It was sad to see a changing of the guard?many of the grand old scholars
> of Sanskrit studies are too old or unwell to travel, but on the plus side,
> a pleasing number of young scholars are coming up the ranks.
>
>  There was general excitement and widespread approval when at the final
> session it was announced that after the 17th conference in Vancouver in
> 2018, the 18th World Sanskrit Conference will be held in Canberra in 2021.
>
>  Had he attended the rest of the conference, Mr Malhotra would have been
> highly displeased: there is a great deal of excellent scholarship going on
> around the world. He would also have been surprised to learn that many of
> us are vegetarians and that we don?t eat goats of any description.
>
>
>   ------------------------------
> McComas Taylor, Associate Professor and Head
> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies, CHL, CAP
> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
> ------------------------------
> *Enrol now for the Spoken Sanskrit Summer School 2016:*
> https://sites.google.com/site/spokensanskrit16/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Jul  8 11:13:03 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 15 16:43:03 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religious Literature with Political Purposes
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eYTzinhXPi3PFX+RLMn4mC1Sgf9pFvWhCd=juGw-N5qXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eYJFt9D0UV6Sb=BqaQtpKr7ZDKy9vxtBYMCUjuE2MrMSA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Sharing a bar diagram of Brahmin population represented state-wise. This
> may not be highly accurate. But gives a rough idea.
>
>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages
>> to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where
>> you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
>



-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de  Thu Jul  9 10:27:46 2015
From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 15 10:27:46 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #468
Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94BA36643A@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de>


GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection:


Jnanayasas: Jatakastava
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#JnJatstav


Mammata: Sabdavyaparavicara: header corrected
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#MamSabdvy


__________________________________________________________________________

"GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement")

GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages:

http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm





From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Fri Jul 10 15:23:16 2015
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 15 17:23:16 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tigers and goats
In-Reply-To: <1448605822.234841924.1436536779038.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <507226064.235046575.1436541796328.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>


? 
? 


Dear listfolk, 

? 

? 

you might be interested in?Rajiv Malhotra's?response to the comments here on his?speech in Bangkok from McComas Taylor: 

>a quick report on the World Sanskrit Conference, Bangkok 2015 McComas Taylor Western Marxist Orientalist scholars are chewing up Sanskrit as a tiger would devour a goat, digesting what is needed and excreting the remains. So said well-known Indian fire-brand Rajiv Malhotra at the opening of the 16th World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok on 28 June 2015. Many of the 600 or so attendees were also surprised to learn that international scholarship on Sanskrit is fundamentally perverted by the ideas of Giambattista Vico (1688-1744). The world is neatly divided into secular leftist 'outsiders' (Westerners and many Indians who have been coopted by the system) who regard Sanskrit as dead, oppressive and political, and 'insiders' for whom Sanskrit as alive, liberating and sacred. The conference, which received a very substantial subsidy from the Indian government, was officially opened by HRH Princess Maha Chakri Sirishorn, herself a student of Sanskrit. Held in the glitzy Renaissance Hotel over for five days, papers began at 8am and ran until 6pm, but there were plenty of good meals and cultural entertainment to leaven the scholarly dough. My colleague Prof Elizabeth Rohlman from the University of Calgary and I co-convened the first ever independent panel on pura?as (foundational texts of Hindu mythology), which produced excellent results. There is a growing awareness that the pura?as represent a gold-mine of understudied texts (note the exploitative 'outsider' turn of phrase here). As is usual with these mega-events, there was a full spectrum of papers and conversations. The presentations ranged from paradigm-changing to time-wasting. I jotted down eight Really Good Ideas in the front of my notebook, which constitutes an overall success. Among the many high points were the formal disputation in Sanskrit by tradition scholars on the significance of sabda - 'word' or 'sound', and a very lively Sanskrit poetry reading session, including poems in Haiku format and a humorous take on mobile phones. Spoken Sanskrit was everywhere-it is always a pleasure to it used as a lingua franca among scholars who have no other language in common, as has been the case for the last two or three millennia. The recurrent problem with many papers is that scholars consistently fail to place their work in the broader theoretical or academic context. Papers either consist of data with no theory, theory with no data and those with neither (i.e. story-telling). Sometimes it seemed as if no one read anyone else's work. Of course we all love to chase down our own rabbit-holes, but if we can't explain why our work is important or interesting, or how it contributes to the big picture, one wonders why it is presented at all. It was sad to see a changing of the guard-many of the grand old scholars of Sanskrit studies are too old or unwell to travel, but on the plus side, a pleasing number of young scholars are coming up the ranks. There was general excitement and widespread approval when at the final session it was announced that after the 17th conference in Vancouver in 2018, the 18th World Sanskrit Conference will be held in Canberra in 2021. Had he attended the rest of the conference, Mr Malhotra would have been highly displeased: there is a great deal of excellent scholarship going on around the world. He would also have been surprised to learn that many of us are vegetarians and that we don't eat goats of any description. < 

Rajiv Malhotra: 


    * "First thanks for taking note of my talk, which is a step better than ignoring. 
    * Second he stereotypes my position, which is hardly a sign of a good scholar. 
    * My book targets a very specific group I have termed American Orientalists , and explains how these differ from the earlier European Orientalists. So its not a sweeping statement as he makes it seem. 
    * Also, Vico is used by me precisely the way Sheldon Pollock does - he must have heard of Pollock and if he read Pollock he would know where/how Vico fits into Pollock's thesis. In other words, Vico is cited by me in my purva-paksha of pollock. I criticize his use of Vico in Sanskrit philology. So Shri MaComas needs to do more homework - please get into the reading habit; its better than hearsay. 
    * Regarding his comment that I would be pleased to see many of the papers at the Congress, yes thats true, But this is a major change from last congress in thailand 10 years ago. That was when I presented my " Geopolitics and Sanskrit Phobia " paper then (available on the net; also translated into Sanskrit and published by Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan), as a result of which the Congress organizers made many changes this time to bring in more traditional voices . Its a result of this new awareness that (contrary to last time) the Indian govt spent heavily to support this event, and sent a large contingent from India. So dear Shri McComas, I am glad you appreciate the changes as a result of my "fire-brand" work over the past decade. But there is much more in the pipeline. So pls stay tuned." 



Kind regards, 

? 

? 

Koenraad Elst 
__._,_.___ 

Posted by: koenraad.elst at telenet.be 
Reply via web post 	? 	Reply to sender 	? 	Reply to group 	? 	Start a New Topic 	? 	Messages in this topic (1) 
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From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Fri Jul 10 15:51:40 2015
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 15 17:51:40 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] goats and tigers
Message-ID: <780523718.235112139.1436543500214.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>

Dear listfolk, 
? 
? 
R Malhotra's Original speech, for all to see: 
? 
? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbxzX8kwig4 
? 
? 
KE 


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From DCL96 at rci.rutgers.edu  Fri Jul 10 16:03:48 2015
From: DCL96 at rci.rutgers.edu (DC Lammerts)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 15 12:03:48 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Publication
Message-ID: <E20B2F04-2007-482A-845B-9E2F00D30A9F@rci.rutgers.edu>

Buddhist Dynamics in Premodern and Early Modern Southeast Asia
Edited by D Christian Lammerts

Institute of Southeast Asian Studies | Nalanda-Sriwijaya Series | 2015
https://bookshop.iseas.edu.sg/publication/2082

About the Publication
The study of historical Buddhism in premodern and early modern Southeast Asia stands at an exciting and transformative juncture. Interdisciplinary scholarship is marked by a commitment to the careful examination of local and vernacular expressions of Buddhist culture as well as to reconsiderations of long-standing questions concerning the diffusion of and relationships among varied texts, forms of representation, and religious identities, ideas, and practices. The twelve essays in this collection, written by leading scholars in Buddhist Studies and Southeast Asian history, epigraphy, and archaeology, comprise the latest research in the field to deal with the dynamics of mainland and (pen)insular Buddhism between the sixth and nineteenth centuries C.E. Drawing on new manuscript sources, inscriptions, and archaeological data, they investigate the intellectual, ritual, institutional, sociopolitical, aesthetic, and literary diversity of local Buddhisms, and explore their connected histories and contributions to the production of intraregional and transregional Buddhist geographies.

Contents
1. Introduction, by D Christian Lammerts

2. An Untraced Buddhist Verse Inscription from (Pen)insular Southeast Asia, by Peter Skilling

3. How Many Monks? Quantitative and Demographic Archaeological Approaches to Buddhism in Northeast Thailand and Central Laos, Sixth to Eleventh Centuries CE, by Stephen Murphy

4. Miniature St?pas and a Buddhist Sealing from Candi Gentong, Trowulan, Mojokerto, East Java, by Titi Surti Nastiti

5. A Bronze Hoard from Muara Kaman, Kutei, by E Edwards McKinnon

6. Re-exploring the Buddhist "Foundation Deposits" at Chedi Chula Prathon, Nakhon Pathom, by Nicolas Revire

7. Aspects of Buddhism in Tenth-Century Cambodia, by Hiram W Woodward

8. Revisiting the Cult of "?iva-Buddha" in Java and Bali, by Andrea Acri

9. Building a Buddhist Monarchy in ??i Vi?t: Temples and Texts under L? Nh?n-t?ng (r.1072?1127), by John K Whitmore

10. S?ha?a Sa?gha and La?k? in Later Premodern Southeast Asia, by Anne M Blackburn

11. Dynamics of Monastic Mobility and Networking in Seventeenth- and Eighteenth-century Upper Burma, by Alexey Kirichenko

12. Buddhist Diplomacy: Confrontation and Political Rhetoric in the Exchange of Letters between King Alaungmintaya and King Banya Dala of Pegu (1755 ?56), by Jacques P Leider

13. Court Buddhism in Thai-Khmer Relations during the Reign of King Rama IV (King Mongkut), by Santi Pakdeekham






From audrey.truschke at gmail.com  Fri Jul 10 21:46:39 2015
From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 15 14:46:39 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Developing story on alleged plagiarism by Rajiv Malhotra
Message-ID: <CAKq175onwBWTJ23oVaT9f2HKbs1kSqub0o=c+xRPh__4B8bJjA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

List members may be interested in the growing story of alleged plagiarism
of several scholars, including a list member, by Rajiv Malhotra. The story
has been largely developing on twitter (#message4rajiv). Also see the nice
summary on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hinduism/comments/3c8quf/confirmed_widespread_plagiarism_found_in_hindu/

Audrey Truschke
Mellon Postdoctoral Fellow
Department of Religious Studies
Stanford University
e- <audrey.truschke at gmail.com>mail <audrey.truschke at gmail.com> | website
<http://www.stanford.edu/~truschke/>


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From jknutson at hawaii.edu  Sat Jul 11 05:34:16 2015
From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 15 11:04:16 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Developing story on alleged plagiarism by Rajiv	Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <CAKq175onwBWTJ23oVaT9f2HKbs1kSqub0o=c+xRPh__4B8bJjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAiVBEWpLrjzFcD2G7fiv9=uTa6uZzdTOdsqWFM_5YiWwj=mNA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for sharing this Audrey. I feel we should launch some kind of
petition and express a collective condemnation. This is so totally
unacceptable that we have to respond as a scholarly community.

I am not sure whether it would be more effective to address the petition to
Malhotra himself, demanding that he admit his guilt and apologize, or would
it be more worthwhile to address it to the publishers in question?

Best,J

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 3:16 AM, Audrey Truschke <audrey.truschke at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> List members may be interested in the growing story of alleged plagiarism
> of several scholars, including a list member, by Rajiv Malhotra. The story
> has been largely developing on twitter (#message4rajiv). Also see the nice
> summary on reddit:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/hinduism/comments/3c8quf/confirmed_widespread_plagiarism_found_in_hindu/
>
> Audrey Truschke
> Mellon Postdoctoral Fellow
> Department of Religious Studies
> Stanford University
> e- <audrey.truschke at gmail.com>mail <audrey.truschke at gmail.com> | website
> <http://www.stanford.edu/~truschke/>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific
Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at M?noa
452A Spalding


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From jknutson at hawaii.edu  Sat Jul 11 08:43:13 2015
From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 15 14:13:13 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Developing story on alleged plagiarism by Rajiv	Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <CAFUHw75kgUkPHYgHMK-ckCrJMgU346HPWsZL++yzNd4+HJhrbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAiVBEVfq+J+GBrvAK1BeLYn_LwZvypYGkz-JUpiEh==jMbM0A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends and Colleagues, I have created this simple petition. Someone
suggested that addressing it to Harper Collins would be more effective,
since they have something at stake, whereas the author will likely not
admit any wrongdoing. If anyone has suggestions for improving the petition
or revamping it, they would be welcome as this is the first time I have
made a petition on change.org. I hope this helps the effort. Best, ??????,J

https://www.change.org/p/harper-collins-india-in-view-of-the-widespread-plagiarism-found-in-rajiv-malhotra-s-book-indra-s-net-published-by-harper-collins-india-we-call-on-the-publisher-to-make-a-formal-public-apology-and-to-withdraw-the-book-from-the-market?recruiter=5167386&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 1:33 PM, D N Jha <jdnarayan at gmail.com> wrote:

> Why not to both Rajiv Malhotra and his publisher?
> D N Jha
> Former Professor of History
> University of Delhi
>
> On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Jesse Knutson <jknutson at hawaii.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for sharing this Audrey. I feel we should launch some kind of
>> petition and express a collective condemnation. This is so totally
>> unacceptable that we have to respond as a scholarly community.
>>
>> I am not sure whether it would be more effective to address the petition
>> to Malhotra himself, demanding that he admit his guilt and apologize, or
>> would it be more worthwhile to address it to the publishers in question?
>>
>> Best,J
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 3:16 AM, Audrey Truschke <
>> audrey.truschke at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>
>>> List members may be interested in the growing story of alleged
>>> plagiarism of several scholars, including a list member, by Rajiv Malhotra.
>>> The story has been largely developing on twitter (#message4rajiv). Also see
>>> the nice summary on reddit:
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/hinduism/comments/3c8quf/confirmed_widespread_plagiarism_found_in_hindu/
>>>
>>> Audrey Truschke
>>> Mellon Postdoctoral Fellow
>>> Department of Religious Studies
>>> Stanford University
>>> e- <audrey.truschke at gmail.com>mail <audrey.truschke at gmail.com> | website
>>> <http://www.stanford.edu/~truschke/>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
>> Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific
>> Languages and Literatures
>> University of Hawai'i at M?noa
>> 452A Spalding
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
>
> --
> --
> D N Jha
> Professor of History (retired),
> University of Delhi
> 9, Uttaranchal Apartments
> 5, I.P. Extension, Delhi 110 092
> Tel: + 2277 1049
> Cell: 98111 43090
> jdnarayan at gmail.com
> dnjha72 at gmail.com
>
>
>


-- 
Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific
Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at M?noa
452A Spalding


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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Sat Jul 11 12:49:43 2015
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 15 14:49:43 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Developing story on alleged plagiarism by Rajiv	Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <CAAiVBEVfq+J+GBrvAK1BeLYn_LwZvypYGkz-JUpiEh==jMbM0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55A110E7.2080203@uni-muenchen.de>

I've added my name to that petition, with the comment: "For years Mr
Malhotra has made himself known internationally as a viciously
aggressive ethnocentric pamphleteer without the slightest scholarly
substance or merit of note, attacking persons intercontinentally who
have committed their professional lives to the study of aspects of the
culture of India and to a deepening of academic knowledge about Indian
culture. These indications of blatant plagiary demonstrate Mr Malhotra's
profound lack of scholarly as well as, especially, moral substance and
deserve to be widely publicized."

This petition deserves the support of all of us. The examples given
there are crass. Given that I was uncomfortably confronted by Malhotra
fans in the Indian academic community during my last trip to India (in
other words: there are colleagues who take his stuff seriously, even if
they are not exactly top-rank colleagues), I believe it is not
unimportant to expose the fellow in such a simple and clear way when in
his noisy hybris he has thus overreached himself.

RZ


Jesse Knutson wrote:

> Dear Friends and Colleagues, I have created this simple petition.
> Someone suggested that addressing it to Harper Collins would be more
> effective, since they have something at stake, whereas the author will
> likely not admit any wrongdoing. If anyone has suggestions for improving
> the petition or revamping it, they would be welcome as this is the first
> time I have made a petition on change.org <http://change.org>. I hope
> this helps the effort. Best, ??????,J
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/harper-collins-india-in-view-of-the-widespread-plagiarism-found-in-rajiv-malhotra-s-book-indra-s-net-published-by-harper-collins-india-we-call-on-the-publisher-to-make-a-formal-public-apology-and-to-withdraw-the-book-from-the-market?recruiter=5167386&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink
> <https://www.change.org/p/harper-collins-india-in-view-of-the-widespread-plagiarism-found-in-rajiv-malhotra-s-book-indra-s-net-published-by-harper-collins-india-we-call-on-the-publisher-to-make-a-formal-public-apology-and-to-withdraw-the-book-from-the-market?recruiter=5167386&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink>


-- 
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
Institute of Indology and Tibetology
Department of Asian Studies
University of Munich
Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1
80538 Munich
Germany
Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782
Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827
Web http://zydenbos.userweb.mwn.de/






From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sat Jul 11 13:24:18 2015
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 15 15:24:18 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Developing story on alleged plagiarism by Rajiv	Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <CAAiVBEVfq+J+GBrvAK1BeLYn_LwZvypYGkz-JUpiEh==jMbM0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEgrCzCgCM1qbzZJxJ+Rc_QDa-_5uXLcOTi-PcrqshjTWsdOPg@mail.gmail.com>

> Introduction: Halfbass

Change please *Halfbass* to Halbfass

Artur K.

2015-07-11 10:43 GMT+02:00 Jesse Knutson <jknutson at hawaii.edu>:

> Dear Friends and Colleagues, I have created this simple petition. Someone
> suggested that addressing it to Harper Collins would be more effective,
> since they have something at stake, whereas the author will likely not
> admit any wrongdoing. If anyone has suggestions for improving the petition
> or revamping it, they would be welcome as this is the first time I have
> made a petition on change.org. I hope this helps the effort. Best,
> ??????,J
>
>
> https://www.change.org/p/harper-collins-india-in-view-of-the-widespread-plagiarism-found-in-rajiv-malhotra-s-book-indra-s-net-published-by-harper-collins-india-we-call-on-the-publisher-to-make-a-formal-public-apology-and-to-withdraw-the-book-from-the-market?recruiter=5167386&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink
>
> On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 1:33 PM, D N Jha <jdnarayan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Why not to both Rajiv Malhotra and his publisher?
>> D N Jha
>> Former Professor of History
>> University of Delhi
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Jesse Knutson <jknutson at hawaii.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for sharing this Audrey. I feel we should launch some kind of
>>> petition and express a collective condemnation. This is so totally
>>> unacceptable that we have to respond as a scholarly community.
>>>
>>> I am not sure whether it would be more effective to address the petition
>>> to Malhotra himself, demanding that he admit his guilt and apologize, or
>>> would it be more worthwhile to address it to the publishers in question?
>>>
>>> Best,J
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 3:16 AM, Audrey Truschke <
>>> audrey.truschke at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>>
>>>> List members may be interested in the growing story of alleged
>>>> plagiarism of several scholars, including a list member, by Rajiv Malhotra.
>>>> The story has been largely developing on twitter (#message4rajiv). Also see
>>>> the nice summary on reddit:
>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/hinduism/comments/3c8quf/confirmed_widespread_plagiarism_found_in_hindu/
>>>>
>>>> Audrey Truschke
>>>> Mellon Postdoctoral Fellow
>>>> Department of Religious Studies
>>>> Stanford University
>>>> e- <audrey.truschke at gmail.com>mail <audrey.truschke at gmail.com> |
>>>> website <http://www.stanford.edu/~truschke/>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
>>> Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific
>>> Languages and Literatures
>>> University of Hawai'i at M?noa
>>> 452A Spalding
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> D N Jha
>> Professor of History (retired),
>> University of Delhi
>> 9, Uttaranchal Apartments
>> 5, I.P. Extension, Delhi 110 092
>> Tel: + 2277 1049
>> Cell: 98111 43090
>> jdnarayan at gmail.com
>> dnjha72 at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
> Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific
> Languages and Literatures
> University of Hawai'i at M?noa
> 452A Spalding
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sat Jul 11 13:30:48 2015
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 15 13:30:48 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Developing story on alleged plagiarism by Rajiv Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <CAKq175onwBWTJ23oVaT9f2HKbs1kSqub0o=c+xRPh__4B8bJjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037524065@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

imgur.com just calls up a blank screen for me. if special software is required, this
was perhaps not the best vehicle for the citations in the petition

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago

________________________________________
From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Audrey Truschke [audrey.truschke at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 4:46 PM
To: Indology List
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Developing story on alleged plagiarism by Rajiv Malhotra

Dear Colleagues,

List members may be interested in the growing story of alleged plagiarism of several scholars, including a list member, by Rajiv Malhotra. The story has been largely developing on twitter (#message4rajiv). Also see the nice summary on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/hinduism/comments/3c8quf/confirmed_widespread_plagiarism_found_in_hindu/

Audrey Truschke
Mellon Postdoctoral Fellow
Department of Religious Studies
Stanford University
e-<mailto:audrey.truschke at gmail.com>mail<mailto:audrey.truschke at gmail.com> | website<http://www.stanford.edu/~truschke/>





From rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk  Sat Jul 11 18:37:21 2015
From: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk (Rohana Seneviratne)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 15 18:37:21 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81kyapad=C4=ABya_K=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_III,_part_ii_(IYER_1973)?=
Message-ID: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B168003@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>

Dear List,


I will be very much thankful if any of you would like to kindly share with me a PDF of the following work.

K.A. Subramania IYER (ed.) 1973. V?kyapad?ya of Bhart?hari: with the Prak?r?akaprak??a of Hel?r?ja. K???a III, part ii. Poona : Deccan College.

*Please note that I am looking for Part ii of the third K???a.

The only copy at the Oriental Institute, Oxford is now misplaced, as I was told. Thank you very much for any help in advance.


Best Wishes,
R
------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Jul 11 21:47:40 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 15 23:47:40 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article by Jean Filliozat in Yoga et Vie 26 (1978)?
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cdd=xXmw93m+JyMPLxgw=Sbk1=1R75y891O7WWWEWLYBg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,
?

I would like to read Jean Filliozat's article "Le Yoga et les substances
psychotropes" that was published in
?the journal ?
?*?*
*Y*
*?oga ?*
*?et*
*? ?*
*V*
*?ie*?
num. 26
?, in 1978?
.

?The journal is published by ??l?Association du Centre de Relations
Culturelles Franco-Indien, who have written to me offering an annual
subscription to the current issue of the journal?.  The organization took a
year to send me this response.  Before I start wrangling with them about
the specific issue of their journal, I thought I'd ask INDOLOGY.

Can you help with this?

Many thanks,
Dominik Wujastyk


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 06:11:57 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 15 08:11:57 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article by Jean Filliozat in Yoga et Vie 26 (1978)?
In-Reply-To: <740924554.1520.1436679738632.JavaMail.www@wwinf1m27>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Ce5YUPhpL1H-P6kekf5BcD36+zeCJRE-5mZjbGa4+FhGw@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you, everyone!  Jim Mallinson sent me the article minutes after my
request.
?


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 06:32:26 2015
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 15 12:02:26 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Higher Sanskrit Grammar M R Kale 7th ed. 1931 (not 1st	ed) ?
Message-ID: <CAODNnZi2Y6aTiyKkhxsjJ_EuX0hfzhpi4xOr-GWRB3LKRY0DOQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all

I am searching for Higher Sanskrit Grammar by M R Kale which revised and
enlarged. 7th edition. The one which is available in the market is 1st
edition.
which is also available online.

Can any one please help me by sending the 7th edition printed Gopal Narayan
Co Bombay. 1931


With regards

Krishna Prasad
PhD candidate
Karnataka Sanskrit University
Bengaluru


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From rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk  Sun Jul 12 07:34:48 2015
From: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk (Rohana Seneviratne)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 15 07:34:48 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_FW:_V=C4=81kyapad=C4=ABya_K=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_III,_part_ii_(IYER_1973)?=
In-Reply-To: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B168003@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B16807A@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>

I received thankfully the PDF from Prof. Ashok Aklujkar and Mr. Alessandro Battistini (Rome). Thank you all who kindly responded and helped.

Best Wishes,
Rohana
------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/
________________________________
From: Rohana Seneviratne
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 7:37 PM
To: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: V?kyapad?ya K???a III, part ii (IYER 1973)

Dear List,


I will be very much thankful if any of you would like to kindly share with me a PDF of the following work.

K.A. Subramania IYER (ed.) 1973. V?kyapad?ya of Bhart?hari: with the Prak?r?akaprak??a of Hel?r?ja. K???a III, part ii. Poona : Deccan College.

*Please note that I am looking for Part ii of the third K???a.

The only copy at the Oriental Institute, Oxford is now misplaced, as I was told. Thank you very much for any help in advance.


Best Wishes,
R
------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/


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From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 07:54:15 2015
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 15 17:54:15 +1000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_etymology_of_s=C4=81k=E1=B9=A3in?=
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrCd80i_aaJBsD4tnNuymG91hnyjTv+5RcZLTid2UG4s7w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

Would some kind soul whose knowledge of Sanskrit is infinitely better than
my own help clarify the etymology of *s?k?in* (witness)?

In a legal sense a witness, or one who testifies, is a s?k?ini, however,
I'm interested more in the Advaita Ved?ntic/J??na Yoga principle that it
can be considered an 'epistemological tool' and also a 'field of awareness'
where 'phenomena are experienced' (cf Chatterjee 1982, 2003, Fort 1984,
Gupta 1998). More as a side note I find this principle similar to Bourdieu
& Wacquant's (1992) epistemic principle of 'participant objectification'
that aims to draw the spectator into what appears to me to be a relatively
similar epistemological state that aims to objectify the subjectivity of
the agent.
I welcome discussion on this point.



I am parsing *s?k?in* as a verbal noun possibly derived from


*?-kshi,* cl. 2. 6. P.
*-ksheti, -kshiyati, kshetum,* to abide, dwell in, stay at (with acc.);
to inhabit; to exist; to possess, take possession of
(with acc.).


or perhaps

*aksh*  cl. 1. P. *akshati,* cl. 5.
*aksh?oti, ?naksha, akshishyati, akshyati, ?ksh?t, akshitum* or *ash?um,*
to reach; to pass through, penetrate, pervade, embrace;


Searching for 'eye', however, I found this interesting '*?'*...


 *aksha, am,* n. *(fr. rt. 1. **a??**)*, an organ
of sense, an object of sense; (*as*), m. the soul; know-
ledge, religious knowledge; the law; a lawsuit;



this root *a? *has two presents two possibilities

1 . *a?,* cl. 5. P. A. (in classical
Sansk?t A. only),
*a?noti, -nute, ??a, ?na??a, ?na?e, a?ishyate* or *akshyate, ??ish?a*
and *?sh?a, a?itum,* to reach, come to, arrive at; to
get, gain, obtain; to become master of, to master, to
be able; to pervade, penetrate, pierce through, fill;
to heap, accumulate: Caus. *??ayati, ??i?at:* Desid.
*a?i?hate:* Intens.

*a???yate*2 . *a?,* cl. 9. P.
*a?n?ti, ??a, a?i- shyati, ???t, a?itum,* to eat, consume; to
taste, enjoy: Caus. *??ayati, -yitum,* to cause to eat,
to give to eat, to feed: Desid. *a?i?ishati,* to wish to
eat: Intens. *a???yate.*

I am inclined to go with class 5 a? as the root.


Am I correct in assuming that this is a compound with the indeclinable
prefix 'sa' substituting 'saha'  indicating possession or more simply 'with
eye' (ie with an epistemological tool/organ) as a possible translation?
However, I'm still at a loss to understand how this concept can be
considered an an external field to the agent involved in the act of
witnessing...this is really the crux of my query and I appreciate any
insights you might be able to share.


Thanks in advance.




All the best,

Patrick McCartney

PhD Candidate
School of Culture, History & Language
College of the Asia-Pacific
The Australian National University
Canberra, Australia, 0200


Skype - psdmccartney

Australia:  +61 487 398   354
Germany: +49 157 5469 4045
India:        +91 98 73 893 945


   - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
   <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
   -
*https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
   <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney> *

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZHJVkhVBPc
<http://goog_371544488>

<http://goog_371544488>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg

http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g

http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 10:58:37 2015
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 15 16:28:37 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Higher Sanskrit Grammar M R Kale 7th ed. 1931 (not	1st ed) ?
In-Reply-To: <CAODNnZi2Y6aTiyKkhxsjJ_EuX0hfzhpi4xOr-GWRB3LKRY0DOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZjr5WtLkSs0DUcTFYzC_EX7kmxSjxzVMwC=V1yPpffX9A@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks to Prof. Ashok Aklujkar and Rohana both for sending the book.


Deep respect.
With regards

Krishna Prasad
PhD candidate
Karnataka Sanskrit University
Bengaluru

On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 12:02 PM, Krishnaprasad G <
krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all
>
> I am searching for Higher Sanskrit Grammar by M R Kale which revised and
> enlarged. 7th edition. The one which is available in the market is 1st
> edition.
> which is also available online.
>
> Can any one please help me by sending the 7th edition printed Gopal
> Narayan Co Bombay. 1931
>
>
> With regards
>
> Krishna Prasad
> PhD candidate
> Karnataka Sanskrit University
> Bengaluru
>
>
>


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From e.ciurtin at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 11:09:58 2015
From: e.ciurtin at gmail.com (Eugen Ciurtin)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 15 14:09:58 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article by Jean Filliozat
Message-ID: <CAAeSjS+hXGCWLMCF2iMxQ7K8yC8oG8FJN1KeDioHk9-V00TvNA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dominik, Dear Colleagues,

Another, English version of the article on psychotropes by Jean Filliozat
was included in his Indian *Opera minora* (MLBD 1991) on *Religion
Philosophy Yoga*. Professor Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat wrote to me in July
2014:

It is not a perfectly authentic article of my father. He had done a lecture
on this subject in a Yoga school in Paris. It was recorded and published in
the Newsletter of that school from the recording. Please find the files in
attachment.

Yours sincerely,
Eugen Ciurtin
(Institute for the History of Religions, Bucharest)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat <pierre-sylvain at filliozat.net>
Date: 2014-07-26 9:11 GMT+03:00
Subject: J. Filiozat article
To: e.ciurtin at gmail.com


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From soni at staff.uni-marburg.de  Sun Jul 12 14:55:48 2015
From: soni at staff.uni-marburg.de (soni at staff.uni-marburg.de)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 15 16:55:48 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] DK Award 2015
Message-ID: <20150712165548.Horde.dU7QQlCGuPAU74nk3dM931s@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>

Since the 2006 WSC (World Sanskrit Conference) in Edinburgh the IASS  
(International Association of Sanskrit Studies) inaugurated the DK  
Award for the outstanding doctoral thesis on Sanskrit and allied  
studies in collaboration with DK Agencies, Delhi. This is usually  
announced at  a WSC.

Four candidates competed for the Award for theses submitted in the  
period 2012-2014 and successful completion of their doctorates:

1. Jens W. Borgland: ?A Study of the Adhikara?avastu: Legal Settlement  
Procedures of the M?lasarv?stiv?da Vinaya?. University of Oslo,  
Faculty of Humanities, Department of Culture Studies and Oriental  
Languages, 2014.

2. Elaine Fisher: ?A New Public Theology: Sanskrit and Society in  
Seventeenth-century South India?. Columbia University, Department of  
Middle Eastern, South Asian, and African Studies, 2013.

3. Michael Slouber: ?G?ru?a Medicine: A History of Snakebite and  
Religious Healing in South Asia?. South and Southeast Asian Studies,  
University of California, Berkeley, 2012.

4. Vijaya Subramani:
?Aesthetic Non-dualism? in text and practice: Contemporary Arts in the  
Light of the Rasaga?g?dhara?. Department of Politics, Philosophy and  
Religion, Lancaster University, Lancaster, UK, September 2011.

On account of its philological achievements, the Panel of Adjudicators  
decided to give the DK Award 2015 to:

Dr Michael Slouber for his dissertation on: ?G?ru?a Medicine: A  
History of Snakebite and Religious Healing in South Asia?, submitted  
to the Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies, University of  
California, Berkeley, 2012.

The adjudicators would like to explicitly place on record that the  
thesis by Dr Elaine Fisher was also outstanding and that she should be  
mentioned honourably for her research work in the field of Sanskrit  
and Sanskrit studies. This was done at the IASS General Assembly  
Meeting in Bangkok after announcing the winner.

The next deadline for the Award is the end of January 2018 and  
depending on when exactly the next WSC will take place in Vancouver,  
Canada, the Award will be announced there.

For details of the Award, including previous winners, please see the  
website of the IASS:

http://www.sanskritassociation.org/dk-award.php

The IASS heartily congratulates the winner for the outstanding thesis.
Jay Soni
Secretary General of the IASS

--






From kauzeya at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 15:00:28 2015
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 15 17:00:28 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] More uninformed discussion of ancient India
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4KCjUcyGN7-SN8+=zVGm+ra5yB7Na8q=LMV7fBXksRvaw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

In a somewhat different vein than the ongoing discussion of a certain
Hindutva partisan, you might want to take a look at Amartya Sen's piece:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/aug/13/india-stormy-revival-nalanda-university/

In my opinion, while his political position seems to be something close to
180 degrees the opposite, he is in some ways remarkably similar in his
almost studied ignorance of classical India. His portrayal of Nalanda is
nothing short of fantasy, and I confess that I am disappointed and
depressed to see such fictions repeated by someone who, until recently, was
actually significantly influential in this 'neo' Nalanda project. That it
might be advantageous to say certain rosy things in a political context is
one thing, but the result is, to my mind, an utter misrepresentation of the
historical truth. A final point is that by portraying Nalanda as an
international university, using in his description explicitly secular
categories, the anti-Hindutva Sen succeeds in virtually entirely subverting
the Buddhist nature of Nalanda.

I am curious if I am alone in my impressions of this piece.

Jonathan


-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 17:23:30 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 15 19:23:30 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] More uninformed discussion of ancient India
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4KCjUcyGN7-SN8+=zVGm+ra5yB7Na8q=LMV7fBXksRvaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CdLyQK7g4dMkO5h2ekiP-mNcb981qZRBeSh3+mopqfbrg@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with you about the limitations of Sen's piece.

Furthermore, I don't understand why there is now a second "Nalanda"
recreation, when the Nava Nalanda Mahavihara, deemed university, that has a
developed program of teaching Buddhism and the languages of Buddhism, has
existed since 1951 at the presumed site of the ancient Nalanda.

Dominik Wujastyk


On 12 July 2015 at 17:00, Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Friends,
>
> In a somewhat different vein than the ongoing discussion of a certain
> Hindutva partisan, you might want to take a look at Amartya Sen's piece:
> http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/aug/13/india-stormy-revival-nalanda-university/
>
> In my opinion, while his political position seems to be something close to
> 180 degrees the opposite, he is in some ways remarkably similar in his
> almost studied ignorance of classical India. His portrayal of Nalanda is
> nothing short of fantasy, and I confess that I am disappointed and
> depressed to see such fictions repeated by someone who, until recently, was
> actually significantly influential in this 'neo' Nalanda project. That it
> might be advantageous to say certain rosy things in a political context is
> one thing, but the result is, to my mind, an utter misrepresentation of the
> historical truth. A final point is that by portraying Nalanda as an
> international university, using in his description explicitly secular
> categories, the anti-Hindutva Sen succeeds in virtually entirely subverting
> the Buddhist nature of Nalanda.
>
> I am curious if I am alone in my impressions of this piece.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> --
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> 2311 BZ Leiden
> The Netherlands
>
> copies of my publications may be found at
> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de  Sun Jul 12 19:35:32 2015
From: kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 15 21:35:32 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] More uninformed discussion of ancient India
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4KCjUcyGN7-SN8+=zVGm+ra5yB7Na8q=LMV7fBXksRvaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55A2C184.90500@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de>

Jonathan,

like Dominik, I agree with you. Ignorance of history, perhaps, but
definitely a tendency to project certain ideals that Sen himself shares
-- especially that a society should be driven by reasoned debate in a
public arena -- back into Indian history.

This also comes to the fore e.g. in Sen's book "The Argumentative
Indian" and his 2014 article/essay "The Contemporary Relevance of
Buddha" (Ethics&International Affairs 28/1, 15-27). There is a
romanticized depiction of Buddhism as utterly rational and committed to
reason and public debate in the latter piece that is not only bizarre in
its one-sidedness, but also depressing in the way that it does not
engage the historicity of Buddhist thought. The possibility that "public
debate", for instance, might actually represent something very different
in ancient India and in modern democracies does not even seem to be
entertained. Is this ignorance, or some kind of argumentative strategy?
I'm wondering.

Best regards,

Birgit Kellner

Am 12.07.2015 um 17:00 schrieb Jonathan Silk:
> Dear Friends,
> 
> In a somewhat different vein than the ongoing discussion of a certain
> Hindutva partisan, you might want to take a look at Amartya Sen's
> piece: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/aug/13/india-stormy-revival-nalanda-university/
> 
> In my opinion, while his political position seems to be something close
> to 180 degrees the opposite, he is in some ways remarkably similar in
> his almost studied ignorance of classical India. His portrayal of
> Nalanda is nothing short of fantasy, and I confess that I am
> disappointed and depressed to see such fictions repeated by someone who,
> until recently, was actually significantly influential in this 'neo'
> Nalanda project. That it might be advantageous to say certain rosy
> things in a political context is one thing, but the result is, to my
> mind, an utter misrepresentation of the historical truth. A final point
> is that by portraying Nalanda as an international university, using in
> his description explicitly secular categories, the anti-Hindutva Sen
> succeeds in virtually entirely subverting the Buddhist nature of Nalanda. 
> 
> I am curious if I am alone in my impressions of this piece.
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> 
> -- 
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> 2311 BZ Leiden
> The Netherlands
> 
> copies of my publications may be found at
> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 


-- 
----------
Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Chair of Buddhist Studies
Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context - The
Dynamics of Transculturality"
University of Heidelberg
Karl Jaspers Centre
Vo?stra?e 2, Building 4400
D-69115 Heidelberg
Phone: +49(0)6221 - 54 4301 (Office Ina Chebbi: 4363)
Fax: +49(0)6221 - 54 4012





From c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk  Sun Jul 12 20:24:13 2015
From: c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk (Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 15 20:24:13 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] More uninformed discussion of ancient India
In-Reply-To: <55A2C184.90500@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de>
Message-ID: <5622B5FA1B14F3439A3ABC85C5A09EA823B5A7EE@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local>

While I too have often worried about Sen?s views along the lines mentioned in this thread, Birgit?s concluding question is a thought-provoking one. Not ignorance, for a man educated at Santiniketan, grandson of Kshtimohan Sen (see the intriguing foreword he provides in the 2002 re-issue of his grandfather?s Penguin book, Hinduism), who had many years of discussion of Indian thought with Matilal and Mohanty.
So, argumentative strategy. I think we can see him as affected by different cultural vectors. First, of course, is the ?secular Indian? public intellectual?s resistant response to Hindu nationalism, which makes him feel that drawing substantially on ?Hindu? thought for contemporary discussion is dangerous. Second is his version of the Tagorean notion of Asia, which makes Buddhism attractive as the historical-ideological vehicle for pan-Asian values; something that plays a large role, I hazard, in his involvement with the Nalanda initiative. Third is his reluctance to concede to a completely modernist rejection of the Indian past that characterizes both classic Indian Marxists and many liberals (see Ramachandra Guha?s excoriation of The Argumentative Indian in a review somewhere, from just such a perspective); and possibly, there is a Bengali intellectual strain that includes Ashis Nandy, which worries about the rootlessness of contemporary Indian liberalism but does not think through the historical and philosophical complexity of reading the past for the present.
So what we have is a clumsy redaction of the Buddhist past. It is neither robustly philosophical in identifying the structure of arguments and then clearly demonstrating their disembedding from context for the purposes of conceptual analysis; nor carefully text-historical in locating the ideas in their context and their temporal trajectory. We do not even have a historical philosophy that acknowledges the complexity of context and engages in close reading of text, while also seeking to develop ideas for contemporary relevance. Instead, we have a radically simplified pseudohistory of ideas. (I blame Charles Taylor...)

Best wishes,
Ram-Prasad
________________________________________
From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Birgit Kellner [kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de]
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 8:35 PM
To: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] More uninformed discussion of ancient India

Jonathan,

like Dominik, I agree with you. Ignorance of history, perhaps, but
definitely a tendency to project certain ideals that Sen himself shares
-- especially that a society should be driven by reasoned debate in a
public arena -- back into Indian history.

This also comes to the fore e.g. in Sen's book "The Argumentative
Indian" and his 2014 article/essay "The Contemporary Relevance of
Buddha" (Ethics&International Affairs 28/1, 15-27). There is a
romanticized depiction of Buddhism as utterly rational and committed to
reason and public debate in the latter piece that is not only bizarre in
its one-sidedness, but also depressing in the way that it does not
engage the historicity of Buddhist thought. The possibility that "public
debate", for instance, might actually represent something very different
in ancient India and in modern democracies does not even seem to be
entertained. Is this ignorance, or some kind of argumentative strategy?
I'm wondering.

Best regards,

Birgit Kellner

Am 12.07.2015 um 17:00 schrieb Jonathan Silk:
> Dear Friends,
>
> In a somewhat different vein than the ongoing discussion of a certain
> Hindutva partisan, you might want to take a look at Amartya Sen's
> piece: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/aug/13/india-stormy-revival-nalanda-university/
>
> In my opinion, while his political position seems to be something close
> to 180 degrees the opposite, he is in some ways remarkably similar in
> his almost studied ignorance of classical India. His portrayal of
> Nalanda is nothing short of fantasy, and I confess that I am
> disappointed and depressed to see such fictions repeated by someone who,
> until recently, was actually significantly influential in this 'neo'
> Nalanda project. That it might be advantageous to say certain rosy
> things in a political context is one thing, but the result is, to my
> mind, an utter misrepresentation of the historical truth. A final point
> is that by portraying Nalanda as an international university, using in
> his description explicitly secular categories, the anti-Hindutva Sen
> succeeds in virtually entirely subverting the Buddhist nature of Nalanda.
>
> I am curious if I am alone in my impressions of this piece.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> --
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> 2311 BZ Leiden
> The Netherlands
>
> copies of my publications may be found at
> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>


--
----------
Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Chair of Buddhist Studies
Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context - The
Dynamics of Transculturality"
University of Heidelberg
Karl Jaspers Centre
Vo?stra?e 2, Building 4400
D-69115 Heidelberg
Phone: +49(0)6221 - 54 4301 (Office Ina Chebbi: 4363)
Fax: +49(0)6221 - 54 4012

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 21:10:36 2015
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 15 02:40:36 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] More uninformed discussion of ancient India
In-Reply-To: <5622B5FA1B14F3439A3ABC85C5A09EA823B5A7EE@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local>
Message-ID: <CAANHO14OTLoshvrjXBbb3Jgg1BERwuWBaBhdgp-rZ5X+k7KzvA@mail.gmail.com>

Just two thoughts:

(a) Sen's contention is not that "public debate" was substantially the same
in ancient India and in the modern normative vision of deliberative
democracy, but just that concepts and practices that Sen's readers might
typically associate with Europe, the Enlightenment, and classical
liberalism (such as realism, skepticism, debate, higher education, etc.)
have analogues in precolonial India. These analogues lack historical
context in his treatment, and they're fuzzy and inexact, but the point is
just that they are there to be found.

(b) The implication of this, and what I understand to be the primary
argumentative goal, is that these concepts and practices can enter into the
"idea of India" without being rejected out of hand as imposed from without
by colonial powers. Sen explicitly positions this vision, which it's fair
to call left-nationalist for the reasons Ram-Prasad mentioned, against the
right-nationalist vision of India (which is fideist rather than
critical-skeptical and leans strongly towards Hinduism) and implicitly
against the still-too-popular idea that liberal values could only have
originated in Europe and were subsequently "gifted" to the rest of the
world through colonialism.

I don't think Sen's goal was ever to provide a complete account of Nalanda,
Buddhism, the Buddha, "the Buddhist past," Indian intellectual history, or
even a detailed reading of any particular arguments. But didn't we know
that already? Sen was not pretending to be an Indologist. Maybe Jonathan
can tell us what struck him as false, fantastic, ignorant, etc., as opposed
to hyperselective.


Andrew Ollett

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 AM, Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi <
c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk> wrote:

> While I too have often worried about Sen?s views along the lines mentioned
> in this thread, Birgit?s concluding question is a thought-provoking one.
> Not ignorance, for a man educated at Santiniketan, grandson of Kshtimohan
> Sen (see the intriguing foreword he provides in the 2002 re-issue of his
> grandfather?s Penguin book, Hinduism), who had many years of discussion of
> Indian thought with Matilal and Mohanty.
> So, argumentative strategy. I think we can see him as affected by
> different cultural vectors. First, of course, is the ?secular Indian?
> public intellectual?s resistant response to Hindu nationalism, which makes
> him feel that drawing substantially on ?Hindu? thought for contemporary
> discussion is dangerous. Second is his version of the Tagorean notion of
> Asia, which makes Buddhism attractive as the historical-ideological vehicle
> for pan-Asian values; something that plays a large role, I hazard, in his
> involvement with the Nalanda initiative. Third is his reluctance to concede
> to a completely modernist rejection of the Indian past that characterizes
> both classic Indian Marxists and many liberals (see Ramachandra Guha?s
> excoriation of The Argumentative Indian in a review somewhere, from just
> such a perspective); and possibly, there is a Bengali intellectual strain
> that includes Ashis Nandy, which worries about the rootlessness of
> contemporary Indian liberalism but does not think through the historical
> and philosophical complexity of reading the past for the present.
> So what we have is a clumsy redaction of the Buddhist past. It is neither
> robustly philosophical in identifying the structure of arguments and then
> clearly demonstrating their disembedding from context for the purposes of
> conceptual analysis; nor carefully text-historical in locating the ideas in
> their context and their temporal trajectory. We do not even have a
> historical philosophy that acknowledges the complexity of context and
> engages in close reading of text, while also seeking to develop ideas for
> contemporary relevance. Instead, we have a radically simplified
> pseudohistory of ideas. (I blame Charles Taylor...)
>
> Best wishes,
> Ram-Prasad
> ________________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Birgit
> Kellner [kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de]
> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 8:35 PM
> To: indology at list.indology.info
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] More uninformed discussion of ancient India
>
> Jonathan,
>
> like Dominik, I agree with you. Ignorance of history, perhaps, but
> definitely a tendency to project certain ideals that Sen himself shares
> -- especially that a society should be driven by reasoned debate in a
> public arena -- back into Indian history.
>
> This also comes to the fore e.g. in Sen's book "The Argumentative
> Indian" and his 2014 article/essay "The Contemporary Relevance of
> Buddha" (Ethics&International Affairs 28/1, 15-27). There is a
> romanticized depiction of Buddhism as utterly rational and committed to
> reason and public debate in the latter piece that is not only bizarre in
> its one-sidedness, but also depressing in the way that it does not
> engage the historicity of Buddhist thought. The possibility that "public
> debate", for instance, might actually represent something very different
> in ancient India and in modern democracies does not even seem to be
> entertained. Is this ignorance, or some kind of argumentative strategy?
> I'm wondering.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Birgit Kellner
>
> Am 12.07.2015 um 17:00 schrieb Jonathan Silk:
> > Dear Friends,
> >
> > In a somewhat different vein than the ongoing discussion of a certain
> > Hindutva partisan, you might want to take a look at Amartya Sen's
> > piece:
> http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/aug/13/india-stormy-revival-nalanda-university/
> >
> > In my opinion, while his political position seems to be something close
> > to 180 degrees the opposite, he is in some ways remarkably similar in
> > his almost studied ignorance of classical India. His portrayal of
> > Nalanda is nothing short of fantasy, and I confess that I am
> > disappointed and depressed to see such fictions repeated by someone who,
> > until recently, was actually significantly influential in this 'neo'
> > Nalanda project. That it might be advantageous to say certain rosy
> > things in a political context is one thing, but the result is, to my
> > mind, an utter misrepresentation of the historical truth. A final point
> > is that by portraying Nalanda as an international university, using in
> > his description explicitly secular categories, the anti-Hindutva Sen
> > succeeds in virtually entirely subverting the Buddhist nature of Nalanda.
> >
> > I am curious if I am alone in my impressions of this piece.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> > --
> > J. Silk
> > Leiden University
> > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> > 2311 BZ Leiden
> > The Netherlands
> >
> > copies of my publications may be found at
> > http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)
> >
>
>
> --
> ----------
> Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
> Chair of Buddhist Studies
> Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context - The
> Dynamics of Transculturality"
> University of Heidelberg
> Karl Jaspers Centre
> Vo?stra?e 2, Building 4400
> D-69115 Heidelberg
> Phone: +49(0)6221 - 54 4301 (Office Ina Chebbi: 4363)
> Fax: +49(0)6221 - 54 4012
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 09:24:26 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 15 14:54:26 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] More uninformed discussion of ancient India
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebirvG3TD8CXhBpWscHneZr82AmZQj0jBAOzR=J_OaHrQ@mail.gmail.com>

Total size of the article is 3976 words, 47 paras, 320 lines.

Portion of it dealing with the past:  941 words 12.25 paras 81 lines.

Percentage of portion dealing with past is 23.66.

All the remaining part of the essay deals with contemporary aspects,
continuing the anti-Indian-right-wing stance of the author.

Buddha was and is many things for many.

During Gandhian era of freedom struggle he was embodiment of Ahimsa for the
pro-Gandhians.

He has been a materialist for the materialists.

Anti-Brahmin for the anti-Brahmins.

Prof. Sen is able to see his ideas in him.



-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk  Mon Jul 13 10:10:41 2015
From: dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk (dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 15 11:10:41 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] More uninformed discussion of ancient India
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4KCjUcyGN7-SN8+=zVGm+ra5yB7Na8q=LMV7fBXksRvaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55A38EA1.9959.8245E7@dermot.grevatt.force9.co.uk>

Dear Jonathan,

Yes, Amartya Sen does seem to project modern ideas of what a university is on to what must 
have been a very different sort of institution, and it spoils the case he is defending.

It's not the first time that he has claimed a specious continuity with ancient Indian culture. In a 
book whose title I forget, he makes great play with the terms nyaya and niti, as if they were 
etymologically related, but without indicating how they are used in Sanskrit literature, or 
anchoring his use of them in any earlier use. I was impressed by his arguments on 
economics and ethics, but thought they were let down by his apparent assumption that 
because he is Indian his ideas ought to have Indian roots, or be made to look as if they have. 
I was reminded of the remark of another argumentative Bengali, the historian Romesh 
Chandra Majumdar: "In a democratic age, everyone seems to assume that a knowledge of 
Indian history is a birthright of every Indian, and requires no patient study or research" (in 
Historians of India, Pakistan and Ceylon, ed. C. H. Philips, p. 426).

Dermot Killingley

On 12 Jul 2015 at 17:00, Jonathan Silk wrote:

Dear Friends, 

In a somewhat different vein than the ongoing discussion of a certain Hindutva partisan, you 
might want to take a look at Amartya Sen's piece: 
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/aug/13/india-stormy-revival-nalanda-university/ 

In my opinion, while his political position seems to be something close to 180 degrees the 
opposite, he is in some ways remarkably similar in his almost studied ignorance of classical 
India. His portrayal of Nalanda is nothing short of fantasy, and I confess that I am 
disappointed and depressed to see such fictions repeated by someone who, until recently, 
was actually significantly influential in this 'neo' Nalanda project. That it might be 
advantageous to say certain rosy things in a political context is one thing, but the result is, to 
my mind, an utter misrepresentation of the historical truth. A final point is that by portraying 
Nalanda as an international university, using in his description explicitly secular categories, 
the anti-Hindutva Sen succeeds in virtually entirely subverting the Buddhist nature of 
Nalanda. 

I am curious if I am alone in my impressions of this piece.

Jonathan


--
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html

-- 
Dermot Killingley
9, Rectory Drive,
Gosforth,
Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT
Phone (0191) 285 8053



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From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 10:16:22 2015
From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 15 12:16:22 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Just published: Vienna Journal of South Asian Studies 55
Message-ID: <CAOuG4CbL1EObRHOtNFq++EcmyeBj-a_NKgNtcujQu1Tx78PKag@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

It is my pleasure to call to your attention that the latest issue (Vol. 55,
2013-2014) of the *Vienna Journal of South Asian Studies* appeared today in
print. The online edition, which in its public domain section contains the
table of contents and extracts of the individual articles, will soon be
available here <http://hw.oeaw.ac.at/WZKS_collection?frames=yes>.



With best wishes,



Philipp Maas

-- 
Dr. Philipp A. Maas
Universit?tsassistent
Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde
Universit?t Wien
Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1
A-1090 Wien
?sterreich
univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas


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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 11:28:21 2015
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 15 13:28:21 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] More uninformed discussion of ancient India
In-Reply-To: <55A38EA1.9959.8245E7@dermot.grevatt.force9.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4KUwi-aMaT7vTY+mCzFUeWF_J=rat8VoCPtVcEL0ACkWA@mail.gmail.com>

The book is "The Idea of Justice" and it is indeed filled with ignorance
about India, or at least Classical India, let us say. I have to confess I
could not even finish the book, so fed up was I. It is perhaps a bit like
the phenomenon one encounters, e.g., with Richard Dawkins. Were I to start
talking about biology, I expect he would dismiss me in a few words, and
rightly so,  just as Sen should do were I to spout off about economics. Why
is the reverse humility rarely in evidence, I wonder.

Jonathan

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 12:10 PM, <dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk> wrote:

>  Dear Jonathan,
>
>  Yes, Amartya Sen does seem to project modern ideas of what a university
> is on to what must have been a very different sort of institution, and it
> spoils the case he is defending.
>
>  It's not the first time that he has claimed a specious continuity with
> ancient Indian culture. In a book whose title I forget, he makes great play
> with the terms nyaya and niti, as if they were etymologically related, but
> without indicating how they are used in Sanskrit literature, or anchoring
> his use of them in any earlier use. I was impressed by his arguments on
> economics and ethics, but thought they were let down by his apparent
> assumption that because he is Indian his ideas ought to have Indian roots,
> or be made to look as if they have. I was reminded of the remark of another
> argumentative Bengali, the historian Romesh Chandra Majumdar: "In a
> democratic age, everyone seems to assume that a knowledge of Indian history
> is a birthright of every Indian, and requires no patient study or research"
> (in *Historians of India, Pakistan and Ceylon*, ed. C. H. Philips, p.
> 426).
>
>  Dermot Killingley
>
>  On 12 Jul 2015 at 17:00, Jonathan Silk wrote:
>
>  Dear Friends,
>
>  In a somewhat different vein than the ongoing discussion of a certain
> Hindutva partisan, you might want to take a look at Amartya Sen's piece:
> *http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/aug/13/india-stormy-revival-nalanda-university/*
> <http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/aug/13/india-stormy-revival-nalanda-university/>
>
>  In my opinion, while his political position seems to be something close
> to 180 degrees the opposite, he is in some ways remarkably similar in his
> almost studied ignorance of classical India. His portrayal of Nalanda is
> nothing short of fantasy, and I confess that I am disappointed and
> depressed to see such fictions repeated by someone who, until recently, was
> actually significantly influential in this 'neo' Nalanda project. That it
> might be advantageous to say certain rosy things in a political context is
> one thing, but the result is, to my mind, an utter misrepresentation of the
> historical truth. A final point is that by portraying Nalanda as an
> international university, using in his description explicitly secular
> categories, the anti-Hindutva Sen succeeds in virtually entirely subverting
> the Buddhist nature of Nalanda.
>
>  I am curious if I am alone in my impressions of this piece.
>
>  Jonathan
>
>
>  --
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> 2311 BZ Leiden
> The Netherlands
>
>  copies of my publications may be found at
>  *http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html*
> <http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html>
>
>  --
> Dermot Killingley
> 9, Rectory Drive,
> Gosforth,
> Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT
> Phone (0191) 285 8053
>
>



-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html


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From dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk  Mon Jul 13 12:30:58 2015
From: dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk (dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 15 13:30:58 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] More uninformed discussion of ancient India
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4KUwi-aMaT7vTY+mCzFUeWF_J=rat8VoCPtVcEL0ACkWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55A3AF82.5141.102B5BC@dermot.grevatt.force9.co.uk>

Dear Jonathan,

Thanks for reminding me of the title. I did read the whole book, thinking that his ideas stood 
up despite the pseudo-indology.

With best wishes,

Dermot



On 13 Jul 2015 at 13:28, Jonathan Silk wrote:

The book is "The Idea of Justice" and it is indeed filled with ignorance about India, or at least 
Classical India, let us say. I have to confess I could not even finish the book, so fed up was I. 
It is perhaps a bit like the phenomenon one encounters, e.g., with Richard Dawkins. Were I 
to start talking about biology, I expect he would dismiss me in a few words, and rightly so, 
just as Sen should do were I to spout off about economics. Why is the reverse humility rarely 
in evidence, I wonder. 

Jonathan

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 12:10 PM, <dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk> wrote:
    Dear Jonathan,

    Yes, Amartya Sen does seem to project modern ideas of what a university is on to what 
    must have been a very different sort of institution, and it spoils the case he is 
    defending.

    It's not the first time that he has claimed a specious continuity with ancient Indian 
    culture. In a book whose title I forget, he makes great play with the terms nyaya and 
    niti, as if they were etymologically related, but without indicating how they are used in 
    Sanskrit literature, or anchoring his use of them in any earlier use. I was impressed by 
    his arguments on economics and ethics, but thought they were let down by his 
    apparent assumption that because he is Indian his ideas ought to have Indian roots, or 
    be made to look as if they have. I was reminded of the remark of another 
    argumentative Bengali, the historian Romesh Chandra Majumdar: "In a democratic 
    age, everyone seems to assume that a knowledge of Indian history is a birthright of 
    every Indian, and requires no patient study or research" (in Historians of India, Pakistan 
    and Ceylon, ed. C. H. Philips, p. 426).

    Dermot Killingley

    On 12 Jul 2015 at 17:00, Jonathan Silk wrote:

    Dear Friends,

    In a somewhat different vein than the ongoing discussion of a certain Hindutva 
    partisan, you might want to take a look at Amartya Sen's piece: 
    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/aug/13/india-stormy-revival-nalanda-university/

    In my opinion, while his political position seems to be something close to 180 degrees 
    the opposite, he is in some ways remarkably similar in his almost studied ignorance of 
    classical India. His portrayal of Nalanda is nothing short of fantasy, and I confess that I 
    am disappointed and depressed to see such fictions repeated by someone who, until 
    recently, was actually significantly influential in this 'neo' Nalanda project. That it might 
    be advantageous to say certain rosy things in a political context is one thing, but the 
    result is, to my mind, an utter misrepresentation of the historical truth. A final point is 
    that by portraying Nalanda as an international university, using in his description 
    explicitly secular categories, the anti-Hindutva Sen succeeds in virtually entirely 
    subverting the Buddhist nature of Nalanda.

    I am curious if I am alone in my impressions of this piece.

    Jonathan


    --
    J. Silk
    Leiden University
    Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
    Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
    2311 BZ Leiden
    The Netherlands

    copies of my publications may be found at
    http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html

    --
    Dermot Killingley
    9, Rectory Drive,
    Gosforth,
    Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT
    Phone (0191) 285 8053


--
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html

-- 
Dermot Killingley
9, Rectory Drive,
Gosforth,
Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT
Phone (0191) 285 8053






From BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk  Mon Jul 13 14:19:34 2015
From: BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk (Simon Brodbeck)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 15 14:19:34 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mahabharata retold
Message-ID: <DB3PR02MB0539755D91BA8164DDBFF0D58C9C0@DB3PR02MB0539.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>

Dear colleagues,

Some of you may be interested in Carole Satyamurti?s ?The Mahabharata: a Modern Retelling?, which appeared a few months ago, published by Norton and Co. The publisher?s webpage for this book is: http://books.wwnorton.com/books/Mahabharata/

The author is an acclaimed poet, and a few weeks ago the book was announced as co-winner of the inaugural Roehampton Poetry Prize (see http://www.roehampton.ac.uk/News/2015/June/Inaugural-Roehampton-Poetry-Prize-announcement-celebrates--marvels--of-modern-poetry/ ). A paperback edition is expected early next year.

In the same month as Satyamurti?s version, another retelling of the Mahabharata, by David Slavitt, was published by Northwestern University Press: http://nupress.northwestern.edu/content/mahabharata

If anyone has seen (or can provide) a review of Slavitt?s version, I would be grateful to hear of it.

Simon Brodbeck
Cardiff University




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From Gerard.Huet at inria.fr  Mon Jul 13 14:50:49 2015
From: Gerard.Huet at inria.fr (=?utf-8?Q?G=C3=A9rard_Huet?=)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 15 16:50:49 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Release of Sanskrit Heritage Engine software
Message-ID: <D8DEFDE4-2B58-4237-8C9A-D124761B7D0D@inria.fr>

At the occasion of the World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok, a public distribution of the Sanskrit Heritage Engine software has been released,
together with a user's reference manual for the various tools. 
This version allows using the tools as Web services on your own workstation, provided it runs some version of Unix, such as Linux or Mac OSX.
The user manual tells how to download the software and install it. Please report any difficulty or anomaly.
Best regards,
G?rard Huet



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From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Mon Jul 13 15:49:11 2015
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 15 17:49:11 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rajiv Malhotra plagiarism allegations
Message-ID: <1131876546.241065982.1436802551967.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>


Dear listfolk, 
? 
Given your remarkable interest in the Rajiv Malhotra controversy, you might care to see the reply by his supporters: 
? 
https://traditionresponds.wordpress.com/ 
? 
Kind regards, 
? 
Koenraad Elst 


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From andrea.pinkney at mcgill.ca  Mon Jul 13 18:30:53 2015
From: andrea.pinkney at mcgill.ca (Andrea Marion Pinkney, Prof.)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 15 18:30:53 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nalanda revival
In-Reply-To: <mailman.87.1436803216.28021.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <E7A09DD3-89D2-4F09-9405-381CB81163B0@mcgill.ca>

Dear Colleagues,

With regard to the discussion of the Nalanda revival and Amartya Sen?s recent essay, I have tried to provide some background and reflections on the project here: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=9455424&fileId=S0026749X13000310

With best wishes,
Andrea


Andrea Marion Pinkney
Assistant Professor
Faculty of Religious Studies
McGill University

Recent publications: https://mcgill.academia.edu/AndreaMarionPinkney




On Jul 13, 2015, at 12:00 PM, indology-request at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-request at list.indology.info> wrote:

Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: More uninformed discussion of ancient India (Dominik Wujastyk)
  2. Re: More uninformed discussion of ancient India (Birgit Kellner)
  3. Re: More uninformed discussion of ancient India
     (Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi)
  4. Re: More uninformed discussion of ancient India (Andrew Ollett)
  5. More uninformed discussion of ancient India (Nagaraj Paturi)
  6. Re: More uninformed discussion of ancient India
     (dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk)
  7. Just published: Vienna Journal of South Asian Studies 55
     (Philipp Maas)
  8. Re: More uninformed discussion of ancient India (Jonathan Silk)
  9. Re: More uninformed discussion of ancient India
     (dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk)
 10. Mahabharata retold (Simon Brodbeck)
 11. Release of Sanskrit Heritage Engine software (G?rard Huet)
 12. Rajiv Malhotra plagiarism allegations (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 19:23:30 +0200
From: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
To: Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com>, Indology
<indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] More uninformed discussion of ancient India
Message-ID:
<CAKdt-CdLyQK7g4dMkO5h2ekiP-mNcb981qZRBeSh3+mopqfbrg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I agree with you about the limitations of Sen's piece.

Furthermore, I don't understand why there is now a second "Nalanda"
recreation, when the Nava Nalanda Mahavihara, deemed university, that has a
developed program of teaching Buddhism and the languages of Buddhism, has
existed since 1951 at the presumed site of the ancient Nalanda.

Dominik Wujastyk


On 12 July 2015 at 17:00, Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Friends,

In a somewhat different vein than the ongoing discussion of a certain
Hindutva partisan, you might want to take a look at Amartya Sen's piece:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/aug/13/india-stormy-revival-nalanda-university/

In my opinion, while his political position seems to be something close to
180 degrees the opposite, he is in some ways remarkably similar in his
almost studied ignorance of classical India. His portrayal of Nalanda is
nothing short of fantasy, and I confess that I am disappointed and
depressed to see such fictions repeated by someone who, until recently, was
actually significantly influential in this 'neo' Nalanda project. That it
might be advantageous to say certain rosy things in a political context is
one thing, but the result is, to my mind, an utter misrepresentation of the
historical truth. A final point is that by portraying Nalanda as an
international university, using in his description explicitly secular
categories, the anti-Hindutva Sen succeeds in virtually entirely subverting
the Buddhist nature of Nalanda.

I am curious if I am alone in my impressions of this piece.

Jonathan


--
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
unsubscribe)



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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 19:15:33 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 15 21:15:33 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nalanda revival
In-Reply-To: <E7A09DD3-89D2-4F09-9405-381CB81163B0@mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcapcvnwEj=_LHgWgSmnAsTvW9LK1p5dDnXCchCJFfpVg@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 July 2015 at 20:30, Andrea Marion Pinkney, Prof. <
andrea.pinkney at mcgill.ca> wrote:

>  Dear Colleagues,
>
>  With regard to the discussion of the Nalanda revival and Amartya Sen?s
> recent essay, I have tried to provide some background and reflections on
> the project here:
> http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=9455424&fileId=S0026749X13000310
>
>

>  ?Also available here
<https://www.academia.edu/1859378/Looking_West_to_India_Asian_education_intra-Asian_renaissance_and_the_Nalanda_revival>
.


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From pf8 at soas.ac.uk  Mon Jul 13 20:29:29 2015
From: pf8 at soas.ac.uk (Peter Flugel)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 15 21:29:29 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Publications of the Centre of Jaina Studies
Message-ID: <CAF+JJrmZuQRxahvfGEzJMNn_-R+ncsanhgspvA0Gnaqx0YVxwA@mail.gmail.com>

*Jaina Scriptures and Philosophy*. Ed. P. Fl?gel & O. Ovarnstr?m. London:
Routledge, 2015 (Routledge Advances in Jaina Studies 4).
http://www.book2look.com/embed/9781317557173


Jain Perceptions of N?th and Ha?ha Yog?s in Pre-Colonial North India

*Author:* John E. Cort

*Year:* 2015

International Journal of Jaina Studies (Online) Vol. 11, No. 4 (2015) 1-22

Toward the end of the Ban?rs? Vil?s, the ?collected works? of Ban?rs?d?s
(1586-1643) that was compiled by his colleague Jagj?vanr?m in 1644, there
is a curious seven-caup?? composition entitled Gorakhn?th ke Vacan, or ?The
Sayings of Gorakhn?th.? The text, which may or may not have been authored
by Ban?rs?d?s, but at the very least provides us with a Jain reception of
 Gorakhn?th?s teachings, gives a very favorable short summary of them. To
the best of my knowledge, no scholarly attention has been focused on this
text. Scholars of Ban?rs?d?s at best simply mention it in passing.
Scholars of Gorakhn?th, and the N?ths seem largely to be ignorant of the
text. A century later, in his Mok?a-m?rg Prak??ak, the Jaipur-based
Ter?panth ideologue ?o?armal (ca. 1719/20-1766/67) included a discussion of
the practices of Ha?ha Yog?s, who most likely were R?m?nand?s.  His
comments were harshly critical of these false practices. Neither account of
these ?Hindu? Yogic practitioners of early modern north India is
sufficiently extensive or detailed to provide useful contemporary evidence
of the details of the practices of these Yogic groups. They do, however,
show us two very different responses to the problem of religious diversity.
While Ban?rs?d?s affirms the superiority of the Jain teachings in other
texts, the inclusion of Gorakhn?th ke Vacan in his Ban?rs? Vil?s shows that
he was a curious spiritual seeker, who could find value in non-Jain
practices and ideas. ?o?armal, on the other hand, was a staunch ideologue,
who exalted the Jain doctrines and denigrated all others.
Download File (pdf; 151kb)
<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file103622.pdf>
The Taste of the Mango: A Jaina-Buddhist Controversy on Evidence

*Author:* Marie-H?l?ne Gorisse

*Year:* 2015

International Journal of Jaina Studies (Online) Vol. 11, No. 3 (2015) 1-19

In the classical framework of Indian philosophy, the different schools of
thought agree on the fact that the correctness of an inference relies on a
special necessary relation standing between the evidence-property and the
target-property. In this framework, there is a controversy between Buddhist
and Jain philosophers concerning the marks of this necessary relation,
named the ?invariable concomitance?. More precisely, whereas the Buddhist
philosopher Dharmak?rti holds that only two types of inferential evidence,
namely natural property and effect, can ensure that inferential reasoning
relies upon an invariable concomitance, the Jain M??ikyanandi claims that
there are no less than six situations in which the presence of an
invariable concomitance is unquestionable, namely when the
evidence-property is pervaded by the target-property, or when it is its
effect, its cause, its predecessor, its successor or its co-existent. In
this line, the typical answer from the Buddhist side is to show that any
evidence other than natural property and effect can in fact be traceable to
one of them. Contrarily, the Jain strategy is to show that natural property
and effect are not sufficient in order to give a correct account of the
diversity of correct inferences. The aim of this paper is to give a
presentation of these discrepancies between the Jain and the Buddhist
theories of inference, as they are found in M??ikyanandi?s Par?k??mukham,
the Introduction to Philosophical Investigation, a digest of Akala?ka?s
mature philosophy on one side, and in Dharmak?rti?s
Pram??av?rttikasvav?tti, his Auto-commentary on the Essay on Knowledge on
the other side.

Download File (pdf; 120kb)
<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file100876.pdf>
[image: Adobe PDF File Icon]
<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file100639.pdf>A
Specific Rule in India for Common Difference as Found in the Gomma?as?ra of
Nemicandra (c. 981)

*Author:* Dipak Jadhav

*Year:* 2015

International Journal of Jaina Studies (Online) Vol. 11, No. 2 (2015) 1-21

This paper brings the formula *d = S ? n?k*  into light and discusses its
various aspects including its context in Jaina philosophy. It was set forth
and utilized by Nemicandra (c. 981) in the *Gomma?as?ra (Karmak???a)* in
order to demonstrate the lower-thought-activity (*adha? prav?tta kara?a*).
The lower-thought-activity is conceived as a special process of
thought-concentration which causes destruction (*k?apa?a*) or suppression (
*upa?amana*) of the sub-classes of conduct-deluding*karma*. The paper also
offers a rationale for this specific formula. The relevance of the formula
lies in the fact that it can be used for generating various arithmetic
progressions by finding the common differences, *d* , in accordance with
various values of an arbitrary number, *k* , while their sums, *S* , and
the numbers of their terms, *n* , remain fixed. This way he used it. It can
also be used for generating various arithmetic progressions by finding  in
accordance with various values of*k * while *n*  and *d* remain fixed and
by finding *n* in accordance with various appropriate values of *k* while
*S* and *d* remain fixed.

Download File (pdf; 179kb)
<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file100639.pdf>
[image: Adobe PDF File Icon]
<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file100251.pdf>What
can the lifespans of ??abha, Bharata, ?rey??sa, and Ara tell us about the
History of the concept of Mount Meru?

*Author:* Ruth Satinsky

*Year:* 2015

International Journal of Jaina Studies (Online) Vol. 11, No. 1 (2015) 1-24

Willibald Kirfel (1920/1990), in his major study of Indian cosmology, Die
Kosmographie der Inder nach den Quellen dargestellt, compares the
Brahmanical, Buddhist and Jaina cosmological systems, and concludes that
the early Brahmanical cosmology forms the basis of the later cosmology
found in the epics and Pur??as, and that of the Buddhist and Jaina systems,
as well. Contrary to Kirfel, this paper will present some provisional ideas
which suggest that the concept of Mount Meru entered Brahmanical literature
under the influence of the culture out of which Jainism and Buddhism arose,
the culture of Greater Magadha. This hypothesis is based on three
observations: 1) the concept of Mount Meru ("the golden mountain at the
center of the earth and the universe, around which the heavenly bodies
revolve") is prominent in the Jaina and Buddhist canons, but strikingly
absent from Brahmanical literature prior to the Mah?bh?rata; 2) its late
introduction into Brahmanical literature marks the shift from Vedic to epic
and Pur??ic cosmology at a time when Brahmanical contacts with Buddhism,
Jainism, and their region of origin, Greater Magadha, were possible and
presumably established; and 3) a special group of numbers, "the number
eighty-four and its multiples," is also prominent in the Jaina and Buddhist
canons, and in ?j?vikism, but likewise absent from Brahmanical literature
prior to the Mah?bh?rata. The lifespans of ??abha, Bharata, ?rey??sa, and
Ara, and the height of Mount Meru are linked to this special group of
numbers, and will serve, amongst others, as examples.

Download File (pdf; 184kb)
<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file100251.pdf>

-- 
Dr Peter Fl?gel
Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies
Department of the Study of Religions
Faculty of Arts and Humanities
School of Oriental and African Studies
University of London
Thornhaugh Street
Russell Square
London WC1H OXG

Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776
E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk
http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies


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From ute.huesken at ikos.uio.no  Mon Jul 13 22:49:39 2015
From: ute.huesken at ikos.uio.no (=?utf-8?Q?Ute_H=C3=BCsken?=)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 15 22:49:39 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Navaratri workshop in Paris
Message-ID: <1436827779883.87132@ikos.uio.no>

Dear list-members,

In case you are in Paris this August, you are cordially invited to drop in at our workshop on "Navaratri, Navaratra and Durgapuja in South Asia and beyond", which will take place on August 20 and 21. You can find the detailed program here:
http://www.hf.uio.no/ikos/english/research/news-and-events/events/others/2015/international-workshop-on-navar%C4%81tri-navar%C4%81tra-a.html

For the organizing team,
Ute Huesken




--

Ute H?sken, PhD
Professor, South Asia Studies (Sanskrit)
Department of Culture Studies and Oriental Languages
University of Oslo
Faculty of Humanities
P.O. Box 1010 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo
Norway

Room 387, P.A. Munch's Building
phone: +47 22 85 48 16
telefax: +47 22 85 48 28
ute.huesken at ikos.uio.no
http://www.hf.uio.no/ikos/personer/vit/uteh/index.html



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From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu  Tue Jul 14 05:23:14 2015
From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 15 00:23:14 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Amartya Sen and Nalanda
Message-ID: <747200CC-5689-45DD-94EA-536AF5B3E245@uts.cc.utexas.edu>

Writing from my temporary home in Delhi, those of you interested in the Amartya Sen and Nalanda University fiasco, my profitably read these two essays. The first is by a friend, Pratap Bhanu Mehta (who taught at Harvard). He is a very incisive and insightful public intellectual and analyst of Indian politics and society.

http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/nalanda-is-a-syndrome/99/

http://thewire.in/2015/07/13/goodbye-sen-welcome-yeo/

With best wishes from monsoon soaked Delhi,

Patrick




From kauzeya at gmail.com  Tue Jul 14 07:15:11 2015
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 15 09:15:11 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Amartya Sen and Nalanda
In-Reply-To: <747200CC-5689-45DD-94EA-536AF5B3E245@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4Kxc37yu=gS0oZW5_kPnKq475onemDdRYyVMNVEQ=qpXw@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Patrick! From the first: "Academics are good at deconstructing
everyone?s privileges but their own."
Never a truer word was spoken!

Although it goes back a few days, may I take this opportunity also briefly
to respond to Andrew's worthwhile question: "Maybe Jonathan can tell us
what struck him as false, fantastic, ignorant, etc., as opposed to
hyperselective."?

A catalog is not appropriate, and I am well aware that Sen is not an
Indologist (although one might think that it is not very hard to run such a
piece by a friend or colleague who is before one publishes), but:

"As an institution of higher learning, where the entry qualifications were
high, Nalanda was supported by a network of other educational organizations
that

provided information about Nalanda and also helped to prepare students for
studying there."


"entry qualifications"? If Sen knows this, it is a new discovery. I don't
think anyone knows anything about how 'students' were granted 'admission'
to 'study' at Nalanda. The entire presentation of Nalanda as a 'university'
with 'students' who come to 'study' there is, to my mind, fantastical. This
spirit permeates the piece.


"Special care was taken to demolish the beautiful statues of Buddha and
other Buddhist figures that were spread across the campus."


Setting aside 'campus', I don't think again that there is any evidence for
this, and rather, it seems to me that when monasteries were sacked in North
India the goal was almost entirely economic. The 'beautiful statues' were
often made of precious substances or encrusted with jewels; my guess--but
it is nothing more than that--is that there is at least a whiff of some
idea that one might connect this sack of Nalanda with the destruction of
the Bamiyan Buddhas, which is historically, and typologically, an entirely
unrelated event.

Birgit has already referred much more authoritatively than I could to the
discussion of debate; I have nothing to add.


One more:


"The issue of the spread of knowledge was raised in a conversation in the
seventh century when Xuan Zang completed his studies and

was considering going back to China. The professors at Nalanda asked Xuan
Zang to stay on as a member of the faculty."


The professors? The faculty? Completed his studies? Andrew would perhaps
not characterize this as fantastic, but I think it fundamentally and
entirely misrepresents the very nature of Nalanda, and plops it right down
in the European context to which Sen wishes to equate the Indian
institution.


Finally, and unrelated, a random question: is it just because he thinks his
NYRB readers will expect it that Sen refers to Lokesh Chandra as Chandra?
It's one name, LokeshChandra, right?!


I would like to sincerely thank the colleagues who have helped place this
discussion in the wider context, of which I was entirely ignorant, of
contemporary Indian politics. It is an interesting, but depressing, story,
which unfortunately seems to hold serious lessons for those of us in Europe
also dealing with State control over education and resources.


Jonathan

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 7:23 AM, Patrick Olivelle <jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu>
wrote:

> Writing from my temporary home in Delhi, those of you interested in the
> Amartya Sen and Nalanda University fiasco, my profitably read these two
> essays. The first is by a friend, Pratap Bhanu Mehta (who taught at
> Harvard). He is a very incisive and insightful public intellectual and
> analyst of Indian politics and society.
>
> http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/nalanda-is-a-syndrome/99/
>
> http://thewire.in/2015/07/13/goodbye-sen-welcome-yeo/
>
> With best wishes from monsoon soaked Delhi,
>
> Patrick
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html


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From hr at ivs.edu  Tue Jul 14 07:29:39 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 15 09:29:39 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Amartya Sen and Nalanda
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4Kxc37yu=gS0oZW5_kPnKq475onemDdRYyVMNVEQ=qpXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CDF6FF5D-6CE4-4A6C-A5A8-A9B7E0980134@ivs.edu>

> "The issue of the spread of knowledge was raised in a conversation in the seventh century when Xuan Zang completed his studies and
> 
> was considering going back to China. The professors at Nalanda asked Xuan Zang to stay on as a member of the faculty."
> 
> 
> 
> The professors? The faculty? Completed his studies? Andrew would perhaps not characterize this as fantastic, but I think it fundamentally and entirely misrepresents the very nature of Nalanda, and plops it right down in the European context to which Sen wishes to equate the Indian institution.
> 

Were there really no teachers, no formal studies at ancient Nalanda? 

Perhaps Jonathon could explain what was in fact going on there.

Thanks!
Howard


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From slaje at kabelmail.de  Tue Jul 14 08:33:55 2015
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 15 10:33:55 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Amartya Sen and Nalanda
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4Kxc37yu=gS0oZW5_kPnKq475onemDdRYyVMNVEQ=qpXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nVAqepaLUToO_z4Hg2z833u_hpWrL3WO9Vdwg3y9OfGWw@mail.gmail.com>

> "entry qualifications"? If Sen knows this, it is a new discovery. I don't
think anyone knows anything about how 'students' were granted 'admission'
to 'study' at Nalanda. The entire presentation of Nalanda as a 'university'
with 'students' who come to 'study' there is, to my mind, fantastical.

Is not the office of intellectually high-ranking dv?rap?las, who were to
decide about admission to Buddhist centres of learning of the N?land?
calibre,  mentioned in foreign pilgrims' accounts ? Their function would
have been to test the mental skills of aspirants. I have only a very faint
memory, certainly dating back more than thirty years, of having read about
that in Chinese and/or Tibetan accounts. I am almost sure that for instance
??ntarak?ita, too, did hold such a position. Unless the function of a
monastic dv?rap?la was not entirely different from the one I am (hopefully
correctly) recalling, it was probably an office of such a kind Sen might
have borne in mind when writing about "entry qualifications".

Regards,
WS

-----------------------------
Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
D-99425 Weimar
Deutschland


2015-07-14 9:15 GMT+02:00 Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com>:

> Thank you Patrick! From the first: "Academics are good at deconstructing
> everyone?s privileges but their own."
> Never a truer word was spoken!
>
> Although it goes back a few days, may I take this opportunity also briefly
> to respond to Andrew's worthwhile question: "Maybe Jonathan can tell us
> what struck him as false, fantastic, ignorant, etc., as opposed to
> hyperselective."?
>
> A catalog is not appropriate, and I am well aware that Sen is not an
> Indologist (although one might think that it is not very hard to run such a
> piece by a friend or colleague who is before one publishes), but:
>
> "As an institution of higher learning, where the entry qualifications were
> high, Nalanda was supported by a network of other educational organizations
> that
>
> provided information about Nalanda and also helped to prepare students for
> studying there."
>
>
> "entry qualifications"? If Sen knows this, it is a new discovery. I don't
> think anyone knows anything about how 'students' were granted 'admission'
> to 'study' at Nalanda. The entire presentation of Nalanda as a 'university'
> with 'students' who come to 'study' there is, to my mind, fantastical. This
> spirit permeates the piece.
>
>
> "Special care was taken to demolish the beautiful statues of Buddha and
> other Buddhist figures that were spread across the campus."
>
>
> Setting aside 'campus', I don't think again that there is any evidence for
> this, and rather, it seems to me that when monasteries were sacked in North
> India the goal was almost entirely economic. The 'beautiful statues' were
> often made of precious substances or encrusted with jewels; my guess--but
> it is nothing more than that--is that there is at least a whiff of some
> idea that one might connect this sack of Nalanda with the destruction of
> the Bamiyan Buddhas, which is historically, and typologically, an entirely
> unrelated event.
>
> Birgit has already referred much more authoritatively than I could to the
> discussion of debate; I have nothing to add.
>
>
> One more:
>
>
> "The issue of the spread of knowledge was raised in a conversation in the
> seventh century when Xuan Zang completed his studies and
>
> was considering going back to China. The professors at Nalanda asked Xuan
> Zang to stay on as a member of the faculty."
>
>
> The professors? The faculty? Completed his studies? Andrew would perhaps
> not characterize this as fantastic, but I think it fundamentally and
> entirely misrepresents the very nature of Nalanda, and plops it right down
> in the European context to which Sen wishes to equate the Indian
> institution.
>
>
> Finally, and unrelated, a random question: is it just because he thinks
> his NYRB readers will expect it that Sen refers to Lokesh Chandra as
> Chandra? It's one name, LokeshChandra, right?!
>
>
> I would like to sincerely thank the colleagues who have helped place this
> discussion in the wider context, of which I was entirely ignorant, of
> contemporary Indian politics. It is an interesting, but depressing, story,
> which unfortunately seems to hold serious lessons for those of us in Europe
> also dealing with State control over education and resources.
>
>
> Jonathan
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 7:23 AM, Patrick Olivelle <jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Writing from my temporary home in Delhi, those of you interested in the
>> Amartya Sen and Nalanda University fiasco, my profitably read these two
>> essays. The first is by a friend, Pratap Bhanu Mehta (who taught at
>> Harvard). He is a very incisive and insightful public intellectual and
>> analyst of Indian politics and society.
>>
>> http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/nalanda-is-a-syndrome/99/
>>
>> http://thewire.in/2015/07/13/goodbye-sen-welcome-yeo/
>>
>> With best wishes from monsoon soaked Delhi,
>>
>> Patrick
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
>
> --
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> 2311 BZ Leiden
> The Netherlands
>
> copies of my publications may be found at
> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From caf57 at cam.ac.uk  Tue Jul 14 17:25:36 2015
From: caf57 at cam.ac.uk (C.A. Formigatti)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 15 18:25:36 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with address
In-Reply-To: <mailman.48.1436544016.21810.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <a4f0c9925721179049ec8cf362cb9344@cam.ac.uk>

Dear colleagues,

I need to contact Mahes Raj Pant, but I do not have his e-mail address. 
Can any of you help me?

Thank you and best wishes,

Camillo Formigatti





From kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de  Tue Jul 14 20:03:58 2015
From: kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 15 22:03:58 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Amartya Sen and Nalanda
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nVAqepaLUToO_z4Hg2z833u_hpWrL3WO9Vdwg3y9OfGWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55A56B2E.2040104@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de>

To quote from Scharfe, Education in Ancient India, 2002, p. 162:

"... Their intellectual level was quite forbidding: "Of those from
abroad who wished to enter the schools of discussion the majority,
beaten by the difficulties of the problems, withdrew; and those who were
deeply versed in old and modern learning were admitted, only two
or three out of ten succeeding." This statement of Hsuan-tsang does not
prove a formal Matriculation Examination as has been suggested, rather a
testing or more likely self-testing of prospective students; those who
felt inadequate withdrew. For Vikramasila, Tibetan sources suggest that
the "gate scholars" (dvara-pandita) guarded the admission
process."

(The "suggestion" to which Scharfe refers comes from Mookerji,
Education, p. 564, but there already seems to be an older disagreement
on how to interpret Xuanzang at this point, as Scharfe also cites St.
Julien and Watters.)

There are references to a kind of test, or entrance rite, but I would
agree with Jonathan that there is no solid basis for "knowing" about
admission processes for study at Nalanda -- what has been written about
this comes from Yijing or Xuanzang, supplemented with accounts found in
later Tibetan historiographies (T?ran?tha, for instance). And gaps are
filled in with some speculation, as Scharfe's account demonstrates.

But to what degree Xuanzang's or T?ran?tha's accounts might have been
filtered by the perspectives of the respective authors, or, in the case
of Chinese pilgrims, processes of cultural translation -- narrating
about Indian affairs in ways a Chinese target audience could understand,
possibly tacitly translating social categories --, is an open question.
A really interesting one, though!

Best regards, Birgit Kellner





Am 14.07.2015 um 10:33 schrieb Walter Slaje:
>> "entry qualifications"? If Sen knows this, it is a new discovery. I
> don't think anyone knows anything about how 'students' were granted
> 'admission' to 'study' at Nalanda. The entire presentation of Nalanda as
> a 'university' with 'students' who come to 'study' there is, to my mind,
> fantastical.
> 
> Is not the office of intellectually high-ranking dv?rap?las, who were to
> decide about admission to Buddhist centres of learning of the N?land?
> calibre,  mentioned in foreign pilgrims' accounts ? Their function would
> have been to test the mental skills of aspirants. I have only a very
> faint memory, certainly dating back more than thirty years, of having
> read about that in Chinese and/or Tibetan accounts. I am almost sure
> that for instance ??ntarak?ita, too, did hold such a position. Unless
> the function of a monastic dv?rap?la was not entirely different from the
> one I am (hopefully correctly) recalling, it was probably an office of
> such a kind Sen might have borne in mind when writing about "entry
> qualifications".
> 
> Regards,
> WS
> 
> -----------------------------
> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
> D-99425 Weimar
> Deutschland
> 
> 
> 2015-07-14 9:15 GMT+02:00 Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com
> <mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com>>:
> 
>     Thank you Patrick! From the first: "Academics are good at
>     deconstructing everyone?s privileges but their own."
>     Never a truer word was spoken!
> 
>     Although it goes back a few days, may I take this opportunity also
>     briefly to respond to Andrew's worthwhile question: "Maybe Jonathan
>     can tell us what struck him as false, fantastic, ignorant, etc., as
>     opposed to hyperselective."?
> 
>     A catalog is not appropriate, and I am well aware that Sen is not an
>     Indologist (although one might think that it is not very hard to run
>     such a piece by a friend or colleague who is before one publishes), but:
> 
>     "As an institution of higher learning, where the entry
>     qualifications were high, Nalanda was supported by a network of
>     other educational organizations that
> 
>     provided information about Nalanda and also helped to prepare
>     students for studying there."
> 
> 
>     "entry qualifications"? If Sen knows this, it is a new discovery. I
>     don't think anyone knows anything about how 'students' were granted
>     'admission' to 'study' at Nalanda. The entire presentation of
>     Nalanda as a 'university' with 'students' who come to 'study' there
>     is, to my mind, fantastical. This spirit permeates the piece. 
> 
> 
>     "Special care was taken to demolish the beautiful statues of Buddha
>     and other Buddhist figures that were spread across the campus."
> 
> 
>     Setting aside 'campus', I don't think again that there is any
>     evidence for this, and rather, it seems to me that when monasteries
>     were sacked in North India the goal was almost entirely economic.
>     The 'beautiful statues' were often made of precious substances or
>     encrusted with jewels; my guess--but it is nothing more than
>     that--is that there is at least a whiff of some idea that one might
>     connect this sack of Nalanda with the destruction of the Bamiyan
>     Buddhas, which is historically, and typologically, an entirely
>     unrelated event.
> 
>     Birgit has already referred much more authoritatively than I could
>     to the discussion of debate; I have nothing to add.
> 
> 
>     One more:
> 
> 
>     "The issue of the spread of knowledge was raised in a conversation
>     in the seventh century when Xuan Zang completed his studies and
> 
>     was considering going back to China. The professors at Nalanda asked
>     Xuan Zang to stay on as a member of the faculty."
> 
> 
>     The professors? The faculty? Completed his studies? Andrew would
>     perhaps not characterize this as fantastic, but I think it
>     fundamentally and entirely misrepresents the very nature of Nalanda,
>     and plops it right down in the European context to which Sen wishes
>     to equate the Indian institution.
> 
> 
>     Finally, and unrelated, a random question: is it just because he
>     thinks his NYRB readers will expect it that Sen refers to Lokesh
>     Chandra as Chandra? It's one name, LokeshChandra, right?!
> 
> 
>     I would like to sincerely thank the colleagues who have helped place
>     this discussion in the wider context, of which I was entirely
>     ignorant, of contemporary Indian politics. It is an interesting, but
>     depressing, story, which unfortunately seems to hold serious lessons
>     for those of us in Europe also dealing with State control over
>     education and resources.
> 
> 
>     Jonathan
> 
> 
>     On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 7:23 AM, Patrick Olivelle
>     <jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu <mailto:jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu>> wrote:
> 
>         Writing from my temporary home in Delhi, those of you interested
>         in the Amartya Sen and Nalanda University fiasco, my profitably
>         read these two essays. The first is by a friend, Pratap Bhanu
>         Mehta (who taught at Harvard). He is a very incisive and
>         insightful public intellectual and analyst of Indian politics
>         and society.
> 
>         http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/nalanda-is-a-syndrome/99/
> 
>         http://thewire.in/2015/07/13/goodbye-sen-welcome-yeo/
> 
>         With best wishes from monsoon soaked Delhi,
> 
>         Patrick
>         _______________________________________________
>         INDOLOGY mailing list
>         INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>         indology-owner at list.indology.info
>         <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the
>         list's managing committee)
>         http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>         options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     -- 
>     J. Silk
>     Leiden University
>     Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>     Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
>     2311 BZ Leiden
>     The Netherlands
> 
>     copies of my publications may be found at
>     http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     INDOLOGY mailing list
>     INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>     indology-owner at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's
>     managing committee)
>     http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>     options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 


-- 
----------
Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Chair of Buddhist Studies
Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context - The
Dynamics of Transculturality"
University of Heidelberg
Karl Jaspers Centre
Vo?stra?e 2, Building 4400
D-69115 Heidelberg
Phone: +49(0)6221 - 54 4301 (Office Ina Chebbi: 4363)
Fax: +49(0)6221 - 54 4012





From dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk  Wed Jul 15 10:29:02 2015
From: dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk (dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 15 11:29:02 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Amartya Sen and Nalanda
In-Reply-To: <55A56B2E.2040104@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de>
Message-ID: <55A635EE.22432.73A342@dermot.grevatt.force9.co.uk>

Thanks, Brigit. Cultural translation into terms a modern university administrator would 
understand seems to be what Amartya Sen was doing -- tacitly and rather too freely. 
Well-meaning, perhaps, but potentially misleading.

Dermot Killingley

On 14 Jul 2015 at 22:03, Birgit Kellner wrote:

To quote from Scharfe, Education in Ancient India, 2002, p. 162:

"... Their intellectual level was quite forbidding: "Of those from
abroad who wished to enter the schools of discussion the majority,
beaten by the difficulties of the problems, withdrew; and those who were
deeply versed in old and modern learning were admitted, only two
or three out of ten succeeding." This statement of Hsuan-tsang does not
prove a formal Matriculation Examination as has been suggested, rather a
testing or more likely self-testing of prospective students; those who
felt inadequate withdrew. For Vikramasila, Tibetan sources suggest that
the "gate scholars" (dvara-pandita) guarded the admission
process."

(The "suggestion" to which Scharfe refers comes from Mookerji,
Education, p. 564, but there already seems to be an older disagreement
on how to interpret Xuanzang at this point, as Scharfe also cites St.
Julien and Watters.)

There are references to a kind of test, or entrance rite, but I would
agree with Jonathan that there is no solid basis for "knowing" about
admission processes for study at Nalanda -- what has been written about
this comes from Yijing or Xuanzang, supplemented with accounts found in
later Tibetan historiographies (Taranatha, for instance). And gaps are
filled in with some speculation, as Scharfe's account demonstrates.

But to what degree Xuanzang's or Taranatha's accounts might have been
filtered by the perspectives of the respective authors, or, in the case
of Chinese pilgrims, processes of cultural translation -- narrating
about Indian affairs in ways a Chinese target audience could understand,
possibly tacitly translating social categories --, is an open question.
A really interesting one, though!

Best regards, Birgit Kellner





Am 14.07.2015 um 10:33 schrieb Walter Slaje:
>> "entry qualifications"? If Sen knows this, it is a new discovery. I
> don't think anyone knows anything about how 'students' were granted
> 'admission' to 'study' at Nalanda. The entire presentation of Nalanda as
> a 'university' with 'students' who come to 'study' there is, to my mind,
> fantastical.
> 
> Is not the office of intellectually high-ranking dvarapalas, who were to
> decide about admission to Buddhist centres of learning of the Nalanda
> calibre,  mentioned in foreign pilgrims' accounts ? Their function would
> have been to test the mental skills of aspirants. I have only a very
> faint memory, certainly dating back more than thirty years, of having
> read about that in Chinese and/or Tibetan accounts. I am almost sure
> that for instance ?Santarakita, too, did hold such a position. Unless
> the function of a monastic dvarapala was not entirely different from the
> one I am (hopefully correctly) recalling, it was probably an office of
> such a kind Sen might have borne in mind when writing about "entry
> qualifications".
> 
> Regards,
> WS
> 
> -----------------------------
> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
> D-99425 Weimar
> Deutschland
> 
> 
> 2015-07-14 9:15 GMT+02:00 Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com
> <mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com>>:
> 
>     Thank you Patrick! From the first: "Academics are good at
>     deconstructing everyone?s privileges but their own."
>     Never a truer word was spoken!
> 
>     Although it goes back a few days, may I take this opportunity also
>     briefly to respond to Andrew's worthwhile question: "Maybe Jonathan
>     can tell us what struck him as false, fantastic, ignorant, etc., as
>     opposed to hyperselective."?
> 
>     A catalog is not appropriate, and I am well aware that Sen is not an
>     Indologist (although one might think that it is not very hard to run
>     such a piece by a friend or colleague who is before one publishes), but:
> 
>     "As an institution of higher learning, where the entry
>     qualifications were high, Nalanda was supported by a network of
>     other educational organizations that
> 
>     provided information about Nalanda and also helped to prepare
>     students for studying there."
> 
> 
>     "entry qualifications"? If Sen knows this, it is a new discovery. I
>     don't think anyone knows anything about how 'students' were granted
>     'admission' to 'study' at Nalanda. The entire presentation of
>     Nalanda as a 'university' with 'students' who come to 'study' there
>     is, to my mind, fantastical. This spirit permeates the piece. 
> 
> 
>     "Special care was taken to demolish the beautiful statues of Buddha
>     and other Buddhist figures that were spread across the campus."
> 
> 
>     Setting aside 'campus', I don't think again that there is any
>     evidence for this, and rather, it seems to me that when monasteries
>     were sacked in North India the goal was almost entirely economic.
>     The 'beautiful statues' were often made of precious substances or
>     encrusted with jewels; my guess--but it is nothing more than
>     that--is that there is at least a whiff of some idea that one might
>     connect this sack of Nalanda with the destruction of the Bamiyan
>     Buddhas, which is historically, and typologically, an entirely
>     unrelated event.
> 
>     Birgit has already referred much more authoritatively than I could
>     to the discussion of debate; I have nothing to add.
> 
> 
>     One more:
> 
> 
>     "The issue of the spread of knowledge was raised in a conversation
>     in the seventh century when Xuan Zang completed his studies and
> 
>     was considering going back to China. The professors at Nalanda asked
>     Xuan Zang to stay on as a member of the faculty."
> 
> 
>     The professors? The faculty? Completed his studies? Andrew would
>     perhaps not characterize this as fantastic, but I think it
>     fundamentally and entirely misrepresents the very nature of Nalanda,
>     and plops it right down in the European context to which Sen wishes
>     to equate the Indian institution.
> 
> 
>     Finally, and unrelated, a random question: is it just because he
>     thinks his NYRB readers will expect it that Sen refers to Lokesh
>     Chandra as Chandra? It's one name, LokeshChandra, right?!
> 
> 
>     I would like to sincerely thank the colleagues who have helped place
>     this discussion in the wider context, of which I was entirely
>     ignorant, of contemporary Indian politics. It is an interesting, but
>     depressing, story, which unfortunately seems to hold serious lessons
>     for those of us in Europe also dealing with State control over
>     education and resources.
> 
> 
>     Jonathan
> 
> 
>     On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 7:23 AM, Patrick Olivelle
>     <jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu <mailto:jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu>> wrote:
> 
>         Writing from my temporary home in Delhi, those of you interested
>         in the Amartya Sen and Nalanda University fiasco, my profitably
>         read these two essays. The first is by a friend, Pratap Bhanu
>         Mehta (who taught at Harvard). He is a very incisive and
>         insightful public intellectual and analyst of Indian politics
>         and society.
> 
>         http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/nalanda-is-a-syndrome/99/
> 
>         http://thewire.in/2015/07/13/goodbye-sen-welcome-yeo/
> 
>         With best wishes from monsoon soaked Delhi,
> 
>         Patrick
>         _______________________________________________
>         INDOLOGY mailing list
>         INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>         indology-owner at list.indology.info
>         <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the
>         list's managing committee)
>         http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>         options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     -- 
>     J. Silk
>     Leiden University
>     Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>     Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
>     2311 BZ Leiden
>     The Netherlands
> 
>     copies of my publications may be found at
>     http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     INDOLOGY mailing list
>     INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>     indology-owner at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's
>     managing committee)
>     http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>     options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 


-- 
----------
Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Chair of Buddhist Studies
Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context - The
Dynamics of Transculturality"
University of Heidelberg
Karl Jaspers Centre
Vo?stra?e 2, Building 4400
D-69115 Heidelberg
Phone: +49(0)6221 - 54 4301 (Office Ina Chebbi: 4363)
Fax: +49(0)6221 - 54 4012

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

-- 
Dermot Killingley
9, Rectory Drive,
Gosforth,
Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT
Phone (0191) 285 8053






From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 16:32:13 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 15 18:32:13 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Swami Veda
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcUEa10DCkVQaSZ_=FWCvD8aZ7mVAEWrfm=+KYm7DqN4g@mail.gmail.com>

I am sad to report the death of Swami Veda Bharati
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Veda_Bharati>, formerly known as
Usharbudha Arya, after a long illness.  Swami Veda was a serious scholar of
indology, especially yoga??stra, and an outstandingly fluent Sanskritist.
He was also an inspiring and dynamic leader of the ashram in Rishikesh that
was devolved upon him when his own guru, Swami Rama
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Rama>, passed away in 1996. He was
particularly devoted to spreading the practice of meditation.

I met him in London, many years ago, when in a single afternoon's work on
the Sanskrit manuscripts at the Wellcome Library, he left me many pages of
invaluable notes and suggestions about the manuscripts he had examined.  I
exchanged emails with him only a few weeks ago, when he kindly shared a
number of publications with me over the internet.  He will be much missed.

Dominik Wujastyk


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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 17:44:57 2015
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 15 11:44:57 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Swami Veda
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CcUEa10DCkVQaSZ_=FWCvD8aZ7mVAEWrfm=+KYm7DqN4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekbMoinwkRj8A9edw_Ystkm1Gp+hwVW3-9eoSC5Bnfev9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Dominik, for letting us know. You mentioned that he kindly shared a
number of publications with you over the internet very recently. Do you
know if he ever completed books 3 and 4 of his excellent translation of the
Yogas?tra? Some years ago I communicated with him about these, which at
that time he had not done.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I am sad to report the death of Swami Veda Bharati
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Veda_Bharati>, formerly known as
> Usharbudha Arya, after a long illness.  Swami Veda was a serious scholar of
> indology, especially yoga??stra, and an outstandingly fluent Sanskritist.
> He was also an inspiring and dynamic leader of the ashram in Rishikesh that
> was devolved upon him when his own guru, Swami Rama
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Rama>, passed away in 1996. He was
> particularly devoted to spreading the practice of meditation.
>
> I met him in London, many years ago, when in a single afternoon's work on
> the Sanskrit manuscripts at the Wellcome Library, he left me many pages of
> invaluable notes and suggestions about the manuscripts he had examined.  I
> exchanged emails with him only a few weeks ago, when he kindly shared a
> number of publications with me over the internet.  He will be much missed.
>
> Dominik Wujastyk
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 18:33:40 2015
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (dhaval patel)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 15 00:03:40 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Artificial Neural Network for Sanskrit programming
Message-ID: <CADSGPzUq2n_uJRxci-s+a-v6k3BqJw1J7F48EzUogFjByCOE-w@mail.gmail.com>

Respected scholars,
Recently I have modified one Artificial neural net code for identification
of samAsas in Sanskrit language.
https://github.com/drdhaval2785/SamaasaClassification is the code location.

The results are very encouraging.
Without feeding any rule to the computer, the following is the
classification result

1. Major 5 samAsa types classification - 70%
2. Minor 55 samAsa subtypes classification - 55 %.
3. Major 5 samAsa types classification taking the first two entries - 85 %.

Probability of a fluke would be 1 - 20 %, 2 - 0.2 %, 40 %.

So, the machine learning is statistically significant, if not good enough.


The database which was used was scraped from
http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/Corpus/SHMT/Samaas-Tagging/ and randomly
shuffled to homogenize the dataset.

The tool was developed for samAsa classification initially, but now
generalized for any string classification problem.

Hope the scholars would like the tool.

For those interested in Artificial neural networks, the link is
http://neuralnetworksanddeeplearning.com/



-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Anand
www.sanskritworld.in


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From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Wed Jul 15 20:43:05 2015
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 15 22:43:05 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <2033114717.246213280.1436990046659.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <582287841.246270953.1436992985740.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>

Dear listfolk, 
? 
? 
More on the ongoing Malhotra saga: 
? 
http://swarajyamag.com/culture/much-ado-about-plagiarism-fox-vs-malhotra/ 
? 
Rajiv Malhotra's over-all stand is to question the legitimacy of much that the Indologists and India-watchers are doing, and this in a far more serious and up-to-date way than Edward Said's unjustly famous book Orientalism has done. Hence his many enemies in our circles. 
? 
To be sure, Malhotra should have known that in the heat of such a struggle, no mistakes are allowed to be made. With so many enemies, he had no option but to be impeccable. No matter what refutation he or his acolytes now muster, this plagiarism accusation will haunt him for years to come, esp. from people who prefer not to see the contents of his works discussed. Just like the sticky?"racism" allegation against Michael Witzel by an American anthropologist is now used for all it is worth?by the likes of S Kalyanaraman and NS Rajaram.? 
? 
The affair invites comparison with another recent demand for a book's withdrawal, viz. Wendy Doniger's The Hindus, an Alternative History . In that case, most list members here have signed an on-line petition pioneered by Romila Thapar in defence of the author's freedom of expression (as have I, plus a second petition circulated at the Zurich Indologist conference exactly one year ago). Yet, from a strictly scholarly viewpoint, the book was not flawless either. The author was not only accused of gross bias transparent in many passages, but also of hundreds of factual errors. Of course a publisher must have a right to publish a book full of errors -- the correct response to such a book is not a ban but another book.?But while the eyes of the petitioners were all on the demand of a ban, that counter-book was given the silent treatment. Yet it existed: the 600-page Critique of "The Hindus" ?by Vishal Agarwal, a Minnesota-based medical engineer and Sanskrit scholar. A summmary can be consulted on-line: 
? 
http://hindureview.com/2014/02/20/critique-wendy-donigers-hindus-alternative-history/ ? 
? 
Here is also a review of Agarwal's review: 
? 
http://www.amazon.com/review/R15O4GR4A5HABO 
? 
As a song about the Satanic Verses affair made?Ayatollah Khomeini?say: "There's two sides to every story." 
? 
? 
Kind regards, 
? 
? 
Koenraad Elst? 
? 
? 
? 


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From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au  Wed Jul 15 23:50:39 2015
From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 15 23:50:39 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <582287841.246270953.1436992985740.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <SIXPR06MB1023315626ADFAEBB091CFB9AE9A0@SIXPR06MB1023.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Colleagues, I cannot remember if I have already circulated this - forgive me if I have.


Here is a recent article on the reception of Doniger's books in India:


Taylor, M 2014, 'Hindu activism and academic censorship in India', South Asia-Journal of South Asia Studies, vol. 37, no. 4, pp. 717-725.


https://alliance.anu.edu.au/access/content/user/u3936301/hindu_activism.pdf


I hope you will find some value and interest min in.


Yours


McComas


________________________________
McComas Taylor, Associate Professor and Head
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies, CHL, CAP
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
________________________________
Enrol now for the Spoken Sanskrit Summer School 2016: https://sites.google.com/site/spokensanskrit16/



________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of koenraad.elst at telenet.be <koenraad.elst at telenet.be>
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 6:43 AM
To: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism

Dear listfolk,


More on the ongoing Malhotra saga:

http://swarajyamag.com/culture/much-ado-about-plagiarism-fox-vs-malhotra/

Rajiv Malhotra's over-all stand is to question the legitimacy of much that the Indologists and India-watchers are doing, and this in a far more serious and up-to-date way than Edward Said's unjustly famous book Orientalism has done. Hence his many enemies in our circles.

To be sure, Malhotra should have known that in the heat of such a struggle, no mistakes are allowed to be made. With so many enemies, he had no option but to be impeccable. No matter what refutation he or his acolytes now muster, this plagiarism accusation will haunt him for years to come, esp. from people who prefer not to see the contents of his works discussed. Just like the sticky "racism" allegation against Michael Witzel by an American anthropologist is now used for all it is worth by the likes of S Kalyanaraman and NS Rajaram.

The affair invites comparison with another recent demand for a book's withdrawal, viz. Wendy Doniger's The Hindus, an Alternative History. In that case, most list members here have signed an on-line petition pioneered by Romila Thapar in defence of the author's freedom of expression (as have I, plus a second petition circulated at the Zurich Indologist conference exactly one year ago). Yet, from a strictly scholarly viewpoint, the book was not flawless either. The author was not only accused of gross bias transparent in many passages, but also of hundreds of factual errors. Of course a publisher must have a right to publish a book full of errors -- the correct response to such a book is not a ban but another book. But while the eyes of the petitioners were all on the demand of a ban, that counter-book was given the silent treatment. Yet it existed: the 600-page Critique of "The Hindus" by Vishal Agarwal, a Minnesota-based medical engineer and Sanskrit scholar. A summmary can be consulted on-line:

http://hindureview.com/2014/02/20/critique-wendy-donigers-hindus-alternative-history/

Here is also a review of Agarwal's review:

http://www.amazon.com/review/R15O4GR4A5HABO

As a song about the Satanic Verses affair made Ayatollah Khomeini say: "There's two sides to every story."


Kind regards,


Koenraad Elst





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From ambapradeep at gmail.com  Thu Jul 16 05:57:53 2015
From: ambapradeep at gmail.com (Amba Kulkarni)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 15 11:27:53 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0Je+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gQXJ0aWZpY2lhbCBOZXVyYWwgTmV0d29yayBmb3IgU2Fuc2tyaXQgcHJvZ3JhbW1pbmc=?=
In-Reply-To: <CADSGPzUq2n_uJRxci-s+a-v6k3BqJw1J7F48EzUogFjByCOE-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFffahDh=zt1V2Y8Ei+Addtv+M1x=1POncajZCQq=D7W3RJpBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dhaval Patel,

Thanks for sharing this.

I have a question: Is the test data different from the training?

I assume you have referred to the following two works:

   1. Statistical Constituency parser for Sanskrit compounds
   <http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/faculty/amba/PUBLICATIONS/samaasa_const_parser_icon2011.pdf>
   Amba Kulkarni and Anil Kumar, ICON 2011, Chennai Dec 18-19
   2. Clues from Astadhyayi for compound identification
   <http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/faculty/amba/PUBLICATIONS/scti-5scls.pdf>
   Amba Kulkarni and Anil Kumar, 5th international SCLS 2013, Mumbai

The first one reports the performance of the system, using only simple
probabilities.

The performance figures for 56 tags were as follows:

Rank      With 55 tags       With 8 tags
1                   63.0%               72.7%
2                   10.9%               13.2%
3                     7.2%                 9.5%

where Rank indicates the position of the correct solution among all
possible solutions.

The second one uses clues from the A.s.taadhyaayii to detect the compound
type of rare compounds, and the performance was 61%  times we got the first
guess correct, and if we allow 3 guesses, 81% one among the 3 guesses were
correct.

With regards,
Amba Kulkarni


On 16 July 2015 at 00:03, dhaval patel <drdhaval2785 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Respected scholars,
> Recently I have modified one Artificial neural net code for identification
> of samAsas in Sanskrit language.
> https://github.com/drdhaval2785/SamaasaClassification is the code
> location.
>
> The results are very encouraging.
> Without feeding any rule to the computer, the following is the
> classification result
>
> 1. Major 5 samAsa types classification - 70%
> 2. Minor 55 samAsa subtypes classification - 55 %.
> 3. Major 5 samAsa types classification taking the first two entries - 85 %.
>
> Probability of a fluke would be 1 - 20 %, 2 - 0.2 %, 40 %.
>
> So, the machine learning is statistically significant, if not good enough.
>
>
> The database which was used was scraped from
> http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/Corpus/SHMT/Samaas-Tagging/ and randomly
> shuffled to homogenize the dataset.
>
> The tool was developed for samAsa classification initially, but now
> generalized for any string classification problem.
>
> Hope the scholars would like the tool.
>
> For those interested in Artificial neural networks, the link is
> http://neuralnetworksanddeeplearning.com/
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
> Collector and District Magistrate, Anand
> www.sanskritworld.in
>
> --
> ??????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? (?.??.)
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "???????????????????" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 
? ?? ?????: ?????? ????? ??????: ll
Let noble thoughts come to us from every side.
- Rig Veda, I-89-i.
Assoc Prof.
Department of Sanskrit Studies
University of Hyderabad
Prof. C.R. Rao Road
Hyderabad-500 046

(91) 040 23133802(off)

http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/scl
http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/faculty/amba


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From ambapradeep at gmail.com  Thu Jul 16 06:48:09 2015
From: ambapradeep at gmail.com (Amba Kulkarni)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 15 12:18:09 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0Je+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gQXJ0aWZpY2lhbCBOZXVyYWwgTmV0d29yayBmb3IgU2Fuc2tyaXQgcHJvZ3JhbW1pbmc=?=
In-Reply-To: <CAFffahDh=zt1V2Y8Ei+Addtv+M1x=1POncajZCQq=D7W3RJpBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFffahDrszXzDZnoEUX5BXYq3_JetvYWfVvw6r3Htuy7DUdEmQ@mail.gmail.com>

A correction:

Please read "The performance figures for 56 tags were as follows" as "The
performance was as follows".

-- Amba Kulkarni


On 16 July 2015 at 11:27, Amba Kulkarni <ambapradeep at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Dhaval Patel,
>
> Thanks for sharing this.
>
> I have a question: Is the test data different from the training?
>
> I assume you have referred to the following two works:
>
>    1. Statistical Constituency parser for Sanskrit compounds
>    <http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/faculty/amba/PUBLICATIONS/samaasa_const_parser_icon2011.pdf>
>    Amba Kulkarni and Anil Kumar, ICON 2011, Chennai Dec 18-19
>    2. Clues from Astadhyayi for compound identification
>    <http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/faculty/amba/PUBLICATIONS/scti-5scls.pdf>
>    Amba Kulkarni and Anil Kumar, 5th international SCLS 2013, Mumbai
>
> The first one reports the performance of the system, using only simple
> probabilities.
>
> The performance figures for 56 tags were as follows:
>
> Rank      With 55 tags       With 8 tags
> 1                   63.0%               72.7%
> 2                   10.9%               13.2%
> 3                     7.2%                 9.5%
>
> where Rank indicates the position of the correct solution among all
> possible solutions.
>
> The second one uses clues from the A.s.taadhyaayii to detect the compound
> type of rare compounds, and the performance was 61%  times we got the first
> guess correct, and if we allow 3 guesses, 81% one among the 3 guesses were
> correct.
>
> With regards,
> Amba Kulkarni
>
>
> On 16 July 2015 at 00:03, dhaval patel <drdhaval2785 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Respected scholars,
>> Recently I have modified one Artificial neural net code for
>> identification of samAsas in Sanskrit language.
>> https://github.com/drdhaval2785/SamaasaClassification is the code
>> location.
>>
>> The results are very encouraging.
>> Without feeding any rule to the computer, the following is the
>> classification result
>>
>> 1. Major 5 samAsa types classification - 70%
>> 2. Minor 55 samAsa subtypes classification - 55 %.
>> 3. Major 5 samAsa types classification taking the first two entries - 85
>> %.
>>
>> Probability of a fluke would be 1 - 20 %, 2 - 0.2 %, 40 %.
>>
>> So, the machine learning is statistically significant, if not good enough.
>>
>>
>> The database which was used was scraped from
>> http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/Corpus/SHMT/Samaas-Tagging/ and randomly
>> shuffled to homogenize the dataset.
>>
>> The tool was developed for samAsa classification initially, but now
>> generalized for any string classification problem.
>>
>> Hope the scholars would like the tool.
>>
>> For those interested in Artificial neural networks, the link is
>> http://neuralnetworksanddeeplearning.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
>> Collector and District Magistrate, Anand
>> www.sanskritworld.in
>>
>> --
>> ??????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? (?.??.)
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "???????????????????" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ? ?? ?????: ?????? ????? ??????: ll
> Let noble thoughts come to us from every side.
> - Rig Veda, I-89-i.
> Assoc Prof.
> Department of Sanskrit Studies
> University of Hyderabad
> Prof. C.R. Rao Road
> Hyderabad-500 046
>
> (91) 040 23133802(off)
>
> http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/scl
> http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/faculty/amba
>
>


-- 
? ?? ?????: ?????? ????? ??????: ll
Let noble thoughts come to us from every side.
- Rig Veda, I-89-i.
Assoc Prof.
Department of Sanskrit Studies
University of Hyderabad
Prof. C.R. Rao Road
Hyderabad-500 046

(91) 040 23133802(off)

http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/scl
http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/faculty/amba


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 16 06:49:33 2015
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (dhaval patel)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 15 12:19:33 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0JW1NhbXNrcml0YV0gUmU6IHvgpK3gpL7gpLDgpKTgpYDgpK/gpLXgpL/gpKbgpY3gpLXgpKTgpY3gpKrgpLDgpL/gpLfgpKTgpY19IEFydGlmaWNpYWwgTmV1cmFsIE5ldHdvcmsgZm9yIFNhbnNrcml0IHByb2dyYW1taW5n?=
In-Reply-To: <CAFffahDh=zt1V2Y8Ei+Addtv+M1x=1POncajZCQq=D7W3RJpBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADSGPzWy5UbN1y3czKjhZejLgaAhw9u3ZCF8MV-4ATM2sR6hQg@mail.gmail.com>

Respected Prof. Kulkarni,

Here is the statistics about the data used.

1. All two-member compounds from
http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/Corpus/SHMT/Samaas-Tagging/ were scraped.
2. Total of 19378 such compounds were culled out.
3. The set was randomly shuffled for homogenization, because the data is
from prose, poetry, different genres of literature.
4. 80 percent of this data was used for training.
5. 20 percent of this data was used for evaluation. (Both separate
datasets).

The classification on training data is around 1-2 % higher than that for
evaluation data.


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Thu Jul 16 15:40:15 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 15 17:40:15 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [RISA-L LIST] FW: In ACLS Haskins Prize Lecture, Doniger Talks Life, Heresy in Hinduism, and Attempts to Suppress Scholarship
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Ce8_TBed2FnBU65xECgh70dsJibXBbuMaAAGRsgJgreYw@mail.gmail.com>

Forwarded from RISA-L

  From: ACLS News <news at ACLS.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 3:38 PM
To: Diana Eck <dianaeck at fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: In ACLS Haskins Prize Lecture, Doniger Talks Life, Heresy in
Hinduism, and Attempts to Suppress Scholarship



*In ACLS Haskins Prize Lecture, Wendy Doniger Talks Life, Heresy in
Hinduism, and Attempts to Suppress Scholarship*

July 15, 2015

NEW YORK ? The American Council of Learned Societies today has made
available on its website the full video of a lecture made by Wendy Doniger,
renowned scholar of Hinduism and mythology, at the Council?s annual meeting
this year in May. In the 2015 ACLS Charles Homer Haskins Prize Lecture,
Doniger reminisced with warmth and wit about her colorful childhood and
education in Great Neck, New York, and later at Harvard and Oxford
Universities and in India. She also described candidly the controversy
ignited by her writing in recent years, including the court order obtained
by conservative activists in India to remove her book *The Hindus: An
Alternative History* from bookshelves and have all copies pulped.

Doniger, who mordantly refers to the last decade of storms over her
scholarship as ?my Indian wars,? has produced over 30 books and numerous
scholarly articles on topics as diverse as epic poetry, ancient art, and
gender studies. Looking back at her publications to date, Doniger reflected
that ?the red thread through all of them seems to be the intersecting
themes of rebellion and masquerade. More recently, I have been drawn away
from masquerade, and into rebellion.?

Introducing the lecture, ACLS President Pauline Yu observed that ?the new
knowledge that comes from research can?indeed, will?be unsettling to many.
Professor Doniger has needed all her evident wit and determination to
persist with her probing scholarship in the face of threats and harassment
from both anonymous and organized opponents offended by her explorations of
sexuality in myth and religion.?

?I?ve always felt that what I do is translation both in the literal sense,
translating Sanskrit text into English . . . and in the broader sense of
translating India for Americans,? Doniger said. Yu also stressed Doniger?s
skill as a cultural translator: ?She has taken on the great challenge of
the humanities: to make complex phenomena of human creativity meaningful
across time, space, and language.?

Haskins Prize Lecturers are asked to reflect on ?a life of learning,? and
Doniger does just that, tracing the roots of her prodigious scholarly
career to a childhood guided by parents who thoroughly instilled a love of
books, and to an early fascination with Indian civilization. Discussing her
reading, as an adolescent, of Aubrey Menen?s ?wickedly satirical retelling?
of the Hindu epic the Ramayana, Doniger notes, ?I didn?t know then that
Menen?s book had already been banned in India under Indian Penal Code 295a.
And of course I could not know that I would run headlong into that same law
over half a century later.?

Doniger's lecture can be viewed at www.acls.org/media/haskins/
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.acls.org_media_haskins_&d=BQMFAw&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=ydAyfXJOLNUDEhlcchoZ2QUF_uMIaA9LN4RsjxpjPp8&m=c8-fYiBGIWtZavfTCSITcbn4eH-3O_Yg4hhRpuIxJOU&s=gmjza8W9gRrJd0894SzsP2UMwfxXeePWyE-uPhvMkuQ&e=>
.

Wendy Doniger is the Mircea Eliade Distinguished Service Professor of the
History of Religions at the University of Chicago.

*About the American Council of Learned Societies*
ACLS, a private, nonprofit federation of 73 national scholarly
organizations, is the preeminent representative of American scholarship in
the humanities and related social sciences. Advancing scholarship by
awarding fellowships and strengthening relations among learned societies is
central to our work. Other activities include support for scholarly
conferences, reference works, and scholarly communication innovations.

*About the Haskins Prize*
Named for the first chairman of ACLS, the Charles Homer Haskins Prize
Lecture has as its theme "A Life of Learning." The lecturer is asked ?to
reflect on a lifetime of work as a scholar and an institution builder, on
the motives, the chance determinations, the satisfactions (and
dissatisfactions) of the life of learning, to explore through one?s own
life the larger, institutional life of scholarship.? The lecture is
delivered at the ACLS annual meeting and published in the ACLS Occasional
Paper series. The entire series is available online at
www.acls.org/pubs/haskins/
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.acls.org_pubs_haskins_&d=BQMFAw&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=ydAyfXJOLNUDEhlcchoZ2QUF_uMIaA9LN4RsjxpjPp8&m=c8-fYiBGIWtZavfTCSITcbn4eH-3O_Yg4hhRpuIxJOU&s=UgOYrDxAw9shJ4gIiujwm-jKTejp8-X253kK6g-5g78&e=>
.

Contact: news at acls.org, 212.697.1505 x144, for media inquiries and for
information about how to embed Wendy Doniger?s Haskins Prize Lecture on
your website.


_______________________________________________
RISA-L mailing list
RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu
https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l


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From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Thu Jul 16 17:05:11 2015
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 15 19:05:11 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <1697055759.246320686.1436996516486.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <865463326.248152013.1437066311850.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>

Dear listfolk, 
? 
? 
It looks like the dragon-slayers will have their work cut out for them for some time to come, for Rajiv Malhotra is not giving up: 
? 
http://www.newslaundry.com/2015/07/15/rajiv-malhotra-says-those-accusing-him-of-plagiarism-are-really-out-to-silence-his-voice/ 
? 
and: 
? 
http://www.niticentral.com/2015/07/15/rajiv-malhotra-on-hindu-intellectuals-niti-exclusive-323900.html 
? 
? 
And please don't get misled by the voices lined up against him, he also has many supporters above suspicion, e.g.: 
? 
"I have known Rajiv Malhotra for about 20 years.? He is a scholar who is innovative, creative, straight-forward, and sincere.? His ideas are causing a paradigm shift in India Studies all over the world.? As true with any research, sometimes weak statements are made, wrong observations are made, or even wrong conclusions are made.? In all such cases, a scholarly counter-argument must be presented to make a case against it.? The left has every right to criticize Rajiv Malhotra; they do not have right to shut him up.? Such suppression of speech by asking the publisher to not publish his upcoming book is similar to book burning examples in our history.? All civilized societies would agree that suppression of ideas is counter-productive.? Freedom of speech is celebrated in all civilized societies.? India cannot be an exception to this rule." -- Alok Kumar, Dept of Physics, State Univ of New York 
? 
? 
Kind regards, 
? 
? 
Koenraad Elst 


? 


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From hellwig7 at gmx.de  Thu Jul 16 18:15:20 2015
From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (hellwig7 at gmx.de)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 15 20:15:20 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Artificial Neural Network for Sanskrit programming
In-Reply-To: <CADSGPzWy5UbN1y3czKjhZejLgaAhw9u3ZCF8MV-4ATM2sR6hQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8D8E369D3E0C4431B88EF823487F2DDA@OliverHP>

Dear Dhaval,

thanks for sharing this interesting experiment!

Two questions come to my mind:

1. Converting letters (nominal scale) to floating point values (metrical 
scale) in the function weightage() looks a bit unfamiliar to me. Actually, 
the classifier will consider "a" and "A" as more similar than, for instance, 
"a" and "u" in this way. Is this conversion grounded theoretically?

2. Could you provide per-class error rates? Does the NN perform much better 
for "simple" classes such as avyayibhava?

But apart from this, it seems to work!

Best, Oliver

---
Oliver Hellwig, University of D?sseldorf, Germany 






From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Thu Jul 16 18:16:58 2015
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 15 20:16:58 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Raji Malhotra, plagiarism, and the Saraswati
Message-ID: <1613218261.248283045.1437070618268.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>

Dear listfolk, 
? 
? 
Whatever the motives which started the Malhotra plagiarism affair, it has predictably led to yet another round of?a familiar phenomenon:?Indian secularists attacking their adversaries all while displaying their ignorance and lack of intellectual manners. Given the ease and unquestioning confidence with which some Indologists rely on these secularists as their privileged source of information about Indian politics, it might be useful to take cognizance of a contemporary example. Here is an attack on Malhotra which ends in further attacks on Shrikant Talageri and Michel Danino, and the common denominator is the playing up of formalities in order not to have to address the contents of the adversary's position. However, in this case, Danino has not taken it lying down. In the event, he also brings the reader up-to-date on the much-maligned Saraswati river.? 
? 
? 
http://www.business-standard.com/article/opinion/mihir-s-sharma-the-publishers-and-the-crackpots-115071401453_1.html 
? 
? 
Kind regards, 
? 
? 
Koenraad Elst 


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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Thu Jul 16 18:55:22 2015
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 15 13:55:22 -0500
Subject: Honor code (Was Re: [INDOLOGY] Raji Malhotra, plagiarism,	and the Saraswati)
In-Reply-To: <1613218261.248283045.1437070618268.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <F2DE84E6-8585-40DF-8F38-CDA8C6637DAD@aol.com>

In light of the current discussion about plagiarism, I looked up Honor Code <http://honor.fas.harvard.edu/honor-code> at Harvard University. Apparently this code was adopted in 2014 and will go into effect in Fall 2015. I have a couple of basic questions regarding this. Is this code applicable to doctoral students? Was there any such honor code in the 1960s at Harvard? 

Thanks in advance

Regards,
Palaniappan


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From hr at ivs.edu  Thu Jul 16 19:04:31 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 15 21:04:31 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Honor code (Was Re:  Raji Malhotra, plagiarism,	and the Saraswati)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1881.1437072935.6003.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <764649F5-D7F3-4CC4-AED6-481A6D504AA7@ivs.edu>

This is the code for Harvard College, the undergraduate school.

> On Jul 16, 2015, at 8:55 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at aol.com>
> Subject: Honor code (Was Re: [INDOLOGY] Raji Malhotra, plagiarism, and the Saraswati)
> Date: July 16, 2015 at 8:55:22 PM GMT+2
> To: indology at list.indology.info
> 
> 
> In light of the current discussion about plagiarism, I looked up Honor Code <http://honor.fas.harvard.edu/honor-code> at Harvard University. Apparently this code was adopted in 2014 and will go into effect in Fall 2015. I have a couple of basic questions regarding this. Is this code applicable to doctoral students? Was there any such honor code in the 1960s at Harvard? 
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu  Fri Jul 17 09:14:39 2015
From: edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu (edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 15 05:14:39 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Swami Veda
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekbMoinwkRj8A9edw_Ystkm1Gp+hwVW3-9eoSC5Bnfev9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <606c8698333d5d7cfc86999bafdae2f1.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>

> Do you
> know if he ever completed books 3 and 4 of his excellent translation of
> the
> Yogas??tra? Some years ago I communicated with him about these, which at
> that time he had not done.

No, unfortunately he did not.

EB





From wujastyk at gmail.com  Fri Jul 17 13:46:22 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 15 15:46:22 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Honor code (Was Re: Raji Malhotra, plagiarism,	and the Saraswati)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1881.1437072935.6003.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cf3YYBbw8NJsmQ-O2riNrQJAyYn+TOZyxsW9xEaU2Wghw@mail.gmail.com>

My university, like many, has a rather well-developed set of guidelines
about academic integrity
<http://guides.library.ualberta.ca/content.php?pid=560222&sid=4617994>.
There are separate sections aimed at faculty and at students. The student
page "avoiding plagiarism
<http://guides.library.ualberta.ca/content.php?pid=560222&sid=4618015>"
contains useful guidelines that might have helped Malhotra when he was
writing. There is a video guide about what is and what is not acceptable
copying <https://youtu.be/8Bx5DAqTPhU>.  Humour is a personal thing, but I
found it very funny.

For the rappers among us, "cite your sources like a freaking adult
<https://youtu.be/bT6S4ERI0o8>."
?
?Dominik Wujastyk?


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From yogacara at gmail.com  Fri Jul 17 21:27:13 2015
From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 15 17:27:13 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Honor code (Was Re: Raji Malhotra, plagiarism,	and the Saraswati)
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cf3YYBbw8NJsmQ-O2riNrQJAyYn+TOZyxsW9xEaU2Wghw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4482CD7805B94C259DE6396108ECA6F0@Dan>

That has also been the long-term policy at Harvard. See
http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k103659&pageid=icb.page666096
which provides detailed instructions for how faculty is to handle varying situations.

It was tacitly understood that Harvard students would be sufficiently intelligent to know that plagiarism is a no-no.

The history of how the latest code came to be (a process started in 2010) resulted from a student bending the rules and, instead of being contrite, unsuccessfully attempted to defend himself legally by exploiting what he claimed were lacunae in the rules. So it was decided a clearer, more concise statement that is brought to all undergraduates attention was needed. See
http://honor.fas.harvard.edu/about-0

Plagiarism has never been condoned at Harvard or at any other American educational institution, including our middle schools and high schools, and is subject to disciplinary action.

Dan Lusthaus
  ----- Original Message ----- 

  My university, like many, has a rather well-developed set of guidelines about academic integrity.  There are separate sections aimed at faculty and at students. The student page "avoiding plagiarism" contains useful guidelines that might have helped Malhotra when he was writing. There is a video guide about what is and what is not acceptable copying.  Humour is a personal thing, but I found it very funny.


  For the rappers among us, "cite your sources like a freaking adult."

  ?

  ?Dominik Wujastyk?


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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Fri Jul 17 22:17:37 2015
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 15 18:17:37 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] regarding Malhotra's plaguerism
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zv9QMauhotO_wdFcS1eBBjEZ=ndFwrafcsosEbQR-91vA@mail.gmail.com>

With regard to his own lack of quotation marks, Malhotra argues somewhere
[on RISA?] that the early Sanskritists also did not have quotation marks
either.  But in fact they did have quotations marks.  They used the
quotative particle iti going all the way back to the
Rigveda.

Malhotra's remarks are either profoundly ignorant or profoundly
disingenuous.

George Thompson


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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Sat Jul 18 03:17:00 2015
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 15 21:17:00 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Speaking_of_plagiarism:_T._G._Mainkar=E2=80=99s_S=C4=81=E1=B9=83khyak=C4=81rik=C4=81?=
Message-ID: <CAPAZekZca=UySAZVw7SNdweVxNYqJwMDvDmPzJkkGM=f_0K9sQ@mail.gmail.com>

In 1964, T. G. Mainkar?s translation of the S??khyak?rik? with Gau?ap?da?s
commentary replaced Har Dutt Sharma?s 1933 translation of the same in the
Poona Oriental Series. But was this a new translation made independently by
Mainkar? As comparison will show, Mainkar for the most part gives Sharma?s
translation of Gau?ap?da?s commentary, making only minor changes to the
wording and sometimes weaving in wording from the 1837 Colebrooke/Wilson
translation, while for the verses he often adopts either the
Colebrooke/Wilson translation or the 1930 Suryanarayana Sastri translation,
again making only minor changes to the wording. One result of this is that
the translation terminology used in the verses often does not match the
translation terminology used in the commentary, making it hard to know what
words and phrases of the verses are being explained in what sentences of
the commentary. Mainkar does not state what he has done, and for fifty
years now scholars have been citing and crediting Mainkar?s translation for
what is largely the translation work of others.


Best regards,


David Reigle

Colorado, U.S.A.


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From reimann at berkeley.edu  Sat Jul 18 04:06:07 2015
From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 15 21:06:07 -0700
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Speaking_of_plagiarism:_T._G._Mainkar=E2=80=99s_S=C4=81=E1=B9=83khyak=C4=81rik=C4=81?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekZca=UySAZVw7SNdweVxNYqJwMDvDmPzJkkGM=f_0K9sQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55A9D0AF.2000104@berkeley.edu>

Regarding Malhotra and plagiarism, here is Andrew Nicholson's response 
to Malhotra's plagiarism of his book:

http://scroll.in/article/742022/upset-about-rajiv-malhotras-plagiarism-even-more-upset-about-distortions-of-my-work

Luis
_____

On 7/17/2015 8:17 PM, David and Nancy Reigle wrote:
>
> In 1964, T. G. Mainkar?s translation of the S??khyak?rik? with 
> Gau?ap?da?s commentary replaced Har Dutt Sharma?s 1933 translation of 
> the same in the Poona Oriental Series. But was this a new translation 
> made independently by Mainkar? As comparison will show, Mainkar for 
> the most part gives Sharma?s translation of Gau?ap?da?s commentary, 
> making only minor changes to the wording and sometimes weaving in 
> wording from the 1837 Colebrooke/Wilson translation, while for the 
> verses he often adopts either the Colebrooke/Wilson translation or the 
> 1930 Suryanarayana Sastri translation, again making only minor changes 
> to the wording. One result of this is that the translation terminology 
> used in the verses often does not match the translation terminology 
> used in the commentary, making it hard to know what words and phrases 
> of the verses are being explained in what sentences of the commentary. 
> Mainkar does not state what he has done, and for fifty years now 
> scholars have been citing and crediting Mainkar?s translation for what 
> is largely the translation work of others.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> David Reigle
>
> Colorado, U.S.A.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From hr at ivs.edu  Sat Jul 18 04:24:47 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 15 06:24:47 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Speaking_of_plagiarism:_T._G._Mainkar=E2=80=99s_S=C4=81=E1=B9=83khyak=C4=81rik=C4=81?=
In-Reply-To: <55A9D0AF.2000104@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <1437193502-414534.496572863.ft6I4Om6F021156@rs143.luxsci.com>

Four times Nicholson accuses Malhotra of plagiarism and his publisher Permanent Black suggests the same. Neither address the avowed rebuttal of that heavy charge. Perhaps this article predates the claim to rebuttal. 

Howard

> On Jul 18, 2015, at 6:06 AM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann <reimann at berkeley.edu> wrote:
> 
> Regarding Malhotra and plagiarism, here is Andrew Nicholson's response to Malhotra's plagiarism of his book:
> 
> http://scroll.in/article/742022/upset-about-rajiv-malhotras-plagiarism-even-more-upset-about-distortions-of-my-work <http://scroll.in/article/742022/upset-about-rajiv-malhotras-plagiarism-even-more-upset-about-distortions-of-my-work>
> 
> Luis
> _____
> 
> On 7/17/2015 8:17 PM, David and Nancy Reigle wrote:
>> In 1964, T. G. Mainkar?s translation of the S??khyak?rik? with Gau?ap?da?s commentary replaced Har Dutt Sharma?s 1933 translation of the same in the Poona Oriental Series. But was this a new translation made independently by Mainkar? As comparison will show, Mainkar for the most part gives Sharma?s translation of Gau?ap?da?s commentary, making only minor changes to the wording and sometimes weaving in wording from the 1837 Colebrooke/Wilson translation, while for the verses he often adopts either the Colebrooke/Wilson translation or the 1930 Suryanarayana Sastri translation, again making only minor changes to the wording. One result of this is that the translation terminology used in the verses often does not match the translation terminology used in the commentary, making it hard to know what words and phrases of the verses are being explained in what sentences of the commentary. Mainkar does not state what he has done, and for fifty years now scholars have been citing and crediting Mainkar?s translation for what is largely the translation work of others. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> David Reigle
>> 
>> Colorado, U.S.A.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From jacob at fabularasa.dk  Sat Jul 18 13:18:17 2015
From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 15 15:18:17 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Unidentified character
Message-ID: <da20e15befe348f658bd0553fed385ec@fabularasa.dk>

Dear list,

Can anyone help me identifying the character that appears twice in the 
third word in the attached image, i.e. below ???? ???????

The image represents a square of a (poorly scanned) gyan chaupar 
painting from early 19th century Bikaner, Rajasthan. I would expect the 
reading ?????? here, but it could easily be something else. I have met 
with this character several times, but never in a context where I could 
be absolutely certain of its interpretation.

Any help much appreciated.

Best,
Jacob

Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
PhD Student
Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
University of Copenhagen
Denmark




From jacob at fabularasa.dk  Sat Jul 18 13:24:10 2015
From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 15 15:24:10 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Unidentified character (with attachment)
Message-ID: <ad2718353e6173c02e31e6216a645c5f@fabularasa.dk>

Seems like the .png file was not accepted. I'll try a .jpg version 
instead.

/jacob

---

Dear list,

Can anyone help me identifying the character that appears twice in the 
third word in the attached image, i.e. below ???? ???????

The image represents a square of a (poorly scanned) gyan chaupar 
painting from early 19th century Bikaner, Rajasthan. I would expect the 
reading ?????? here, but it could easily be something else. I have met 
with this character several times, but never in a context where I could 
be absolutely certain of its interpretation.

Any help much appreciated.

Best,
Jacob

Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
PhD Student
Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
University of Copenhagen
Denmark
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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Jul 18 14:00:15 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 15 16:00:15 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Developing story on alleged plagiarism by Rajiv	Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037524065@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CfWc02XTON3h862_V=DnexMEOCZC67AZpnZ6=XavH-O=g@mail.gmail.com>

Article in yesterday's *The Hindu*:

   - It doesn?t hurt to say sorry
   <http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/on-owning-up-to-mistakes-in-the-public-sphere/article7434214.ece>
   / Sruthi Radhakrishnan


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From hr at ivs.edu  Sat Jul 18 14:37:22 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 15 16:37:22 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Developing story on alleged plagiarism by Rajiv	Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CfWc02XTON3h862_V=DnexMEOCZC67AZpnZ6=XavH-O=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1437230282-7420848.54903049.ft6IEbMNn020731@rs143.luxsci.com>

"Cut to 2015, and we now have the Rajiv Malhotra issue. His explanation for lifting passages from various publications was that ?Sanskrit language has no quotation marks.?

Interestingly, this article too does not address the main ?explanation." It also does not mention that Malhotra admitted he could have done a better job at citation.




> On Jul 18, 2015, at 4:00 PM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Article in yesterday's The Hindu:
>  <>
>  <>It doesn?t hurt to say sorry <http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/on-owning-up-to-mistakes-in-the-public-sphere/article7434214.ece> / Sruthi Radhakrishnan
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Sat Jul 18 16:34:44 2015
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 15 18:34:44 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] speaking of plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <1176574709.252374911.1437237004233.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <1058105203.252379122.1437237284726.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>

? 
Dear listfolk, 
? 
? 
>Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: 

>Regarding Malhotra and plagiarism, here is Andrew Nicholson's response 
to Malhotra's plagiarism of his book: 

http://scroll.in/article/742022/upset-about-rajiv-malhotras-plagiarism-even-more-upset-about-distortions-of-my-work 
< 
? 
? 
I am aware that not all people and not all lists care about hearing both sides of the story before forming their own opinion. Fortunately this is a scholarly list, where members cobsider it a matter of course to hear both sides. So you'll appreciate my furnishing the link to Malhotra's reply: 
? 
? 
http://swarajyamag.com/culture/dear-andrew-nicholson/ 
? 
kind regards, 
? 
? 
Koenraad Elst 
? 
? 


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From ssandahl at sympatico.ca  Sat Jul 18 17:25:47 2015
From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca (Stella Sandahl)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 15 13:25:47 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Infinity Chair at Harvard
Message-ID: <BLU437-SMTP2878D7AD7D245ABF442139BF870@phx.gbl>

Dear all,
I don't wish to enter the debate re. Malhotra's alleged plagiarism of Andrew Nicholson,
whose book was sent to me for review. Sorry I didn't write one!
But I wonder if anyone could clarify what happened to the Infinity Foundation chair
at Harvard. It seems to have functioned only two years, 2001-2003. Why didn't it continue?
Does anyone know the reason for this?
Best to all
Stella Sandahl
--
Professor Stella Sandahl (emerita)
Department of East Asian Studies
130 St. George St. room 14087
Toronto, ON M5S 3H1
ssandahl at sympatico.ca
 Tel. (416) 530-7755
Fax. (416) 978-5711

andha? tama? pravi?anti ye ?vidy?m up?sate tato bh?ya iva te tamo ya u vidy?y?? rat?? ||

B?had?ra?yaka Upanisad IV.4.10

?Those who worship ignorance enter into blind darkness.  Those who are devoted to knowledge enter, as it were, into a greater darkness.?

 









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From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Sat Jul 18 17:50:05 2015
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 15 10:50:05 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] regarding Malhotra's plaguerism
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zv9QMauhotO_wdFcS1eBBjEZ=ndFwrafcsosEbQR-91vA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <79CCB6C6-F159-40B7-9073-A8DE33542A14@mail.ubc.ca>


> On Jul 17, 2015, at 3:17 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at GMAIL.COM <mailto:gthomgt at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:
> 
> >With regard to his own lack of quotation marks, Malhotra argues somewhere [on RISA?] that the early Sanskritists also did not have quotation marks either.  But in fact they did have quotations marks.  They used the quotative particle iti going all the way back to the 
> Rigveda. Malhotra?s remarks are either profoundly ignorant or profoundly disingenuous.<

Malhotra?s actual words are ?Sanskrit does not even have quotation marks in its character set.? (cf. ?Rajiv Malhotra says those accusing him of plagiarism are really out to silence his voice,? Newslaundry of 2015-07-15. http://www.newslaundry.com/2015/07/15/rajiv-malhotra-says-those-accusing-him-of-plagiarism-are-really-out-to-silence-his-voice/ <http://www.newslaundry.com/2015/07/15/rajiv-malhotra-says-those-accusing-him-of-plagiarism-are-really-out-to-silence-his-voice/>

The words ?in its character set? make it clear that Malhotra had written or printed Sanskrit in mind. Obviously, he should not be quoted by dropping that part of his statement which serves to avoid a possible misunderstanding of his point. 

This must be the first time in human history that one or two missed quotation marks led to a petition for not publishing an author?s books. Could there be something offensively exciting in some absences? Could the fact that there were many attributions in the same context to the author whose paragraphs Malhotra is supposed to have plagiarized be an insurmountable obstacle for some readers in noting that credit has been given where it was due? Or, did the readers experience a blinding let-down when the attributions suddenly stopped coming?

a.a. 





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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Sat Jul 18 17:59:39 2015
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 15 11:59:39 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Speaking_of_plagiarism:_Satya_Prakash_Sarasvati_and_Satyakam_Vidyalankar=E2=80=99s_=E1=B9=9Agveda?=
Message-ID: <CAPAZekb+g+XtgA5ux2H-A0uvkecAT2Y+nLnrW0raD80xHxkBsw@mail.gmail.com>

Svami Satya Prakash Sarasvati and Satyakam Vidyalankar?s translation of the
?gveda was published in 12 physical volumes, 1977-1987, being only the
third complete English translation of the ?gveda to be published. It was
preceded by that of H. H. Wilson in 6 volumes, 1850-1888, and that of Ralph
T. H. Griffith in 4 volumes, 1889-1892. It avowedly follows the Arya Samaj
line of interpretation, which treats the various Vedic gods (Agni, Indra,
Mitra, etc.) as being names for the one God, thus translating them all as
?God.? The Arya Samaj line of interpretation specifically rejects S?ya?a?s
commentary, regarding its interpretations as being late and incorrect.
Wilson in his pioneering translation relied fully on S?ya?a?s commentary,
following its interpretations throughout. Recently R. L. Kashyap, who
produced the fourth complete English translation of the ?gveda (published
in 12 physical volumes, 2004-2009), pointed out that Satya Prakash
Sarasvati and Satyakam Vidyalankar?s translation largely copies Wilson?s
translation. This is ironic, since replacing the names Agni, Indra, Mitra,
etc., with God is not enough to remove S?ya?a?s interpretations from it.


On the plagiarism aspect, compare the statement made in the current article
that Luis provided a link to, where Andrew J. Nicholson writes about Rajiv
Malhotra: ?There he steals my words but replaces the name ?Vijnanabhikshu?
(a 16th century Bhedabhedavadin) with ?Vivekananda? (a 19th century
Advaitin), as if they were interchangeable.? Satya Prakash Sarasvati and
Satyakam Vidyalankar?s translation has been reprinted in 2008 and 2011, and
remains available. As far as I know, no one has called upon the publishers
to address this issue.


Best regards,


David Reigle

Colorado, U.S.A.


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From ssandahl at sympatico.ca  Sat Jul 18 18:05:42 2015
From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca (Stella Sandahl)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 15 14:05:42 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Amartya Sen and Asoka
Message-ID: <BLU436-SMTP21F997A16D0229EC161BB4BF870@phx.gbl>

In his book The Argumentative Indian Amartya Sen mentions the Asokan inscriptions several times. On p. 18 he quotes
"the translation presented by Vincent A. Smith in Asoka:The Buddhist Emperor of India ...except for some minor emendations based
on the original Sanskrit text" (note 26, p.360).
I am very puzzled by this. I admit I have only read Jules Bloch's Les inscriptions d'Asoka, which are translated from different Prakrit
inscriptions. I wonder where did Amartya Sen find "the Sanskrit original"? Has anybody else seen it? I very much would like to see 
"the original Sanskrit".
Best
Stella Sandahl

 Professor Stella Sandahl (emerita)
Department of East Asian Studies
130 St. George St. room 14087
Toronto, ON M5S 3H1
ssandahl at sympatico.ca
stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca
Tel. (416) 530-7755
  








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From jacob at fabularasa.dk  Sat Jul 18 19:36:24 2015
From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 15 21:36:24 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Unidentified character (with attachment)
In-Reply-To: <CA+vafgTLQhfd=OUbY=eYxUk4sStawOWgQSwUSSvXZVd0fTA=iQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aca61d0695094690fdbae0b9cb43f0cf@fabularasa.dk>

Dear Allessandro,

Thank you very much for the example. ??????, derived from ???? as 
suggested by Kenneth Zysk, would certainly fit the bill alright. I will 
go back and see how it fits with the other instances of the character I 
have met with.

Best wishes,
Jacob

Alessandro Battistini skrev den 2015-07-18 19:56:
> Dear Jacob,
> 
> what about _?????_? The meaning too would fit with _?re?i_:
> at the moment I can consult only McGregor's Hindi dictionary, which
> gives for the entry _?????_ the meanings "beam, rod, beam of a
> pair of scales" and so on. I attach a scan from a much older (1511
> ??ka) ms from Jodhpur, which presents the same sign, the reading
> being unquestionably _kr????_. The file's quality is very poor,
> if you cannot visualise it, do contact me off-list.
> Best
> 
> Alessandro Battistini
> PhD Candidate
> Sapienza Universit? di Roma
> 
> 2015-07-18 15:24 GMT+02:00 <jacob at fabularasa.dk>:
> 
>> Seems like the .png file was not accepted. I'll try a .jpg version
>> instead.
>> 
>> /jacob
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> Dear list,
>> 
>> Can anyone help me identifying the character that appears twice in
>> the third word in the attached image, i.e. below ????
>> ???????
>> 
>> The image represents a square of a (poorly scanned) gyan chaupar
>> painting from early 19th century Bikaner, Rajasthan. I would expect
>> the reading ?????? here, but it could easily be
>> something else. I have met with this character several times, but
>> never in a context where I could be absolutely certain of its
>> interpretation.
>> 
>> Any help much appreciated.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Jacob
>> 
>> Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
>> PhD Student
>> Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
>> University of Copenhagen
>> Denmark
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info [1] (where you can change your list
>> options or unsubscribe)
> 
> ___________________________________________
> INVESTI SUL FUTURO, FAI CRESCERE L?UNIVERSIT?:
> 
> DONA IL 5 PER MILLE ALLA SAPIENZA
> 
> CODICE FISCALE 80209930587
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://listinfo.indology.info






From nasadasin at gmail.com  Sat Jul 18 22:03:37 2015
From: nasadasin at gmail.com (Al Collins)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 15 14:03:37 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] regarding Malhotra's plaguerism
In-Reply-To: <79CCB6C6-F159-40B7-9073-A8DE33542A14@mail.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAHiOYM_8DvAdPSmn2Dr_0Qa26AWSGiv7x0mwbXsnP+bUSvrz4g@mail.gmail.com>

"Plaguerism", indeed!

I think we need to look a little deeper into this matter, and take telling
slips of the keyboard like the above seriously.  Malhotra is clearly
experienced by most scholars on this list and RISA as a form of "plague,"
someone so far beyond the pale (sic!) that he needs to be definitively
suppressed, squelched, cast into outer darkness, to use just a few of many
available clich?s for what seems to most responders here to be obvious.  Of
course all are at least tacitly aware that academic ire will do nothing to
shut down the jingoism that is perceived to support Malhotra's project. On
the contrary, it will simply increase the bias against "Western" Indology.

I suggest that the focus be kept on Malhotra as a post-colonial agent, not
on the man as purported plagiarist.  What he is trying to do belongs with
the work of Indian freedom fighters like Aurobindo, Vivekananda, and
Gandhi, and is not an attempt to compete with Halbfass, Renou, or Pollock.
He is a public intellectual, and I think standards  for citation are
different for such individuals. Think of fueilletonists in Weimar Germany
like Walter Benjamin, Karl Kraus, Josef Strauss. Or thinkers like Freud,
Jung, Koestler.  Malhotra is a kind of journalist, one with an ax to grind
(like most journalists) but certainly he has never claimed to be a scholar
and should not be attacked for being a bad one.

The question we should ask is why this obvious fact is not clear. Malhotra
should be considered an object of study, and above all a cultural
interlocutor, not a failed academic competitor.  He needs to be taken
seriously as a Hindu or contemporary Indian phenomenon, not as a scholar,
for which he would never be mistaken.

Al Collins, Ph.D., Ph.D.


Al Collins, Ph.D., Ph.D., BCN
Clinical and cultural psychologist
615 E. 82nd Ave. #102
Anchorage, AK 99518
907-344-3338
https://pacifica.academia.edu/AlfredCollins

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> On Jul 17, 2015, at 3:17 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> >With regard to his own lack of quotation marks, Malhotra argues somewhere
> [on RISA?] that the early Sanskritists also did not have quotation marks
> either.  But in fact they did have quotations marks.  They used the
> quotative particle iti going all the way back to the
> Rigveda. Malhotra?s remarks are either profoundly ignorant or profoundly
> disingenuous.<
>
>
> Malhotra?s actual words are ?Sanskrit does not even have quotation marks
> in its character set.? (cf. ?Rajiv Malhotra says those accusing him of
> plagiarism are really out to silence his voice,? Newslaundry of
> 2015-07-15.
> http://www.newslaundry.com/2015/07/15/rajiv-malhotra-says-those-accusing-him-of-plagiarism-are-really-out-to-silence-his-voice/
>
> The words ?in its character set? make it clear that Malhotra had written
> or printed Sanskrit in mind. Obviously, he should not be quoted by dropping
> that part of his statement which serves to avoid a possible
> misunderstanding of his point.
>
> This must be the first time in human history that one or two missed
> quotation marks led to a petition for not publishing an author?s books.
> Could there be something offensively exciting in some absences? Could the
> fact that there were many attributions in the same context to the author
> whose paragraphs Malhotra is supposed to have plagiarized be an
> insurmountable obstacle for some readers in noting that credit has been
> given where it was due? Or, did the readers experience a blinding let-down
> when the attributions suddenly stopped coming?
>
> a.a.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Sat Jul 18 23:42:17 2015
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 15 16:42:17 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] regarding Malhotra's plaguerism
In-Reply-To: <CAHiOYM_8DvAdPSmn2Dr_0Qa26AWSGiv7x0mwbXsnP+bUSvrz4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <35BB6DFB-72D0-4AA3-90BE-4FE62370B6CE@gmail.com>

Dr. Al Collins,

If you saw any specific reason in attaching your ?Jul 18, 2015, at 3:03 PM? post to mine of ?Jul 18, 2015 at 9:50 AM,? it escapes me. The title with ?plaguerism? for ?plagiarism? came from Dr. George Thompson. I retained it only to ensure that the relation of my post to his is not lost. This is a common custom of Internet discussion groups as you must know. 

The style in which you express your impression or evaluation of Mr. Malhotra is remarkable, but if the post had gone beyond mere assertions and contained what members of this forum consider as evidence or reasoning, it would have interested me. 

a.a.




From jknutson at hawaii.edu  Sun Jul 19 04:35:00 2015
From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 10:05:00 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra plagiarism case and the Sanskrit tradition
Message-ID: <CAAiVBEW8hFMSMD5vzk4wY2wn+EYu0QpTxTTc+ZPOvDgZdgVNQg@mail.gmail.com>

I don?t see how any skepticism can be entertained that Rajiv Malhotra has
plagiarized Nicholson?s book. This is the lowest level of academic
dishonesty that would lead to a university student failing a class, and/or
facing other disciplinary measures. It is pathetic, and the arrogance of
Malhotra to identify himself with a tradition on purely racial grounds is
both racist and absurd.  He is a practitioner of the lowest level of
identity politics, an uncultivated, utter fool.



Malhotra has admitted that he was a little bit sloppy. To keep things
simple, let's just take one of the examples of alleged plagiarism detected
by Prof. Young, which he labels ?Example 7, Pt. 3.? It involves endnote 4
on p. 346 of *Indra?s Net*.

The example, with Prof. Young?s annotations, can be found here:
http://imgur.com/rN7l89h

Here there is verbatim copying of 77 words. Furthermore, Malhotra?s text is
confusing, as it does not use quotation marks to set off Nicholson?s
translation of Vijnanabhiksu. This makes it appear that all of the words
are Malhotra's. Nicholson is nowhere noted as the author of these 77 words.

Now let?s look at the rebuttal website (
https://traditionresponds.wordpress.com/). This is what it recommends:

?9. Allegation that on Endnote 4, p.346 Indra?s Net: criticism that RM has
not cited Nicholson (2010).
Analysis: There is sufficient paraphrasing not to justify quotations. But,
nevertheless, Nicholson could have been cited. Recommendation: The
following should be added at the closing of Endnote 4: Summarized from
Nicholson 2010, 37, 45-46??

 How can the verbatim copying of 77 words be ?paraphrasing?? At every
university in the world, such copying, without any attribution whatsoever,
is called plagiarism, and considered the ultimate in academic dishonesty
and lack of integrity. This would still be plagiarism, even if the
recommended ?Summarized from Nicholson. .  .? were added, for it is NOT
SUMMARIZING AT ALL. It is a direct quote, and requires quotation marks and
proper attribution. Malhotra, if he were a scholar, would also note where
Nicholson's translation of Vijnanabhiksu begins.

Richard Fox Young has compiled about nine other similar examples,
aggregated here (some of them involve works from authors other than
Nicholson):
https://www.reddit.com/r/hinduism/comments/3c8quf/confirmed_widespread_plagiarism_found_in_hindu/

The website containing Malhotra?s rebuttal is called "The Tradition
Responds." If this is the "tradition" responding, the tradition is in very
poor shape indeed.  Malhotra doesn?t even know what the tradition is. He
thinks he has an inherited racial competence to represent it, but the
fundamental reality of the Sanskrit tradition is that it was a community of
cultivated individuals. Malhotra would and can have no place in it.



Someone else on this list has astutely pointed out that Sanskrit does
indeed have ways of indicating direct quotes e.g. ?iti? etc. In the
practices of Sanskrit intellectuals quotations were always attributed and
made clear, at least by the context. These intellectuals had no need to
steal others words because they were fully competent to compose their own.

-- 
Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific
Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at M?noa
452A Spalding


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From Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au  Sun Jul 19 07:20:36 2015
From: Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au (Greg Bailey)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 07:20:36 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] regarding Malhotra's plaguerism
In-Reply-To: <CAHiOYM_8DvAdPSmn2Dr_0Qa26AWSGiv7x0mwbXsnP+bUSvrz4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D1D18CB1.D43F%greg.bailey@latrobe.edu.au>

Dear All,

Al Collins is right to see Rajeev Malhotra as a post-colonial agent and perhaps also as a public intellectual.  Post-colonialism is essentially a diaspora phenomenon, prosecuted mainly by Bengali intellectuals living outside of India. Whilst Malhotra may not be of Bengali extract he certainly fits the bill of living outside of India, a factor that supports the kind of romanticist view of Sanskrit as a civilizational paradigm so often found in his argument and dharma as a civilizational ethic. Bear in mind that there is possibly a sense of guilt in some diaspora Indians who have done well financially in a country that many of them see as dominated by an ethos of avaricious materialism. From this perspective the Indian renunciatory tradition (s) are very attractive to them and will provide a foundation for the kind of hybrid view of Hinduism given by Malhotra, and by the ideologists of the BJP in particular.
In a practical sense how will it affect us outside of India who continue to engage in our philological work, also having an ideological base, but one whose underlying assumptions are usually clearly defined? Only if elements in the BJP government prevent us from going to India or from accessing manuscript materials in Indi or undertaking archaeological work, will it affect us directly.
I attended Malhotra?s speech at the recent conference in Bangkok. He spoke in the opening plenary session and, as far as I am aware, did not attend any of the more technical panels. His speech was pure ideology?Sanskrit as a sacred language, the language of liberation, and so on?accompanied by a savage attack on those who seek to find (Foucauldian) power structures reflected in Sanskrit knowledge. It had nothing to do with Sanskrit scholarship and I remain in doubt as to why he was provided with a podium to speak.
Having said that many diaspora Indians and ?intellectual? supporters of the Sangh Parvivar will hang on to his every word.  At some stage one or more Sanskritists are going to have to demonstrate conclusively that post-colonial theory is an ?emperor with no clothes,? even though the post-colonial experience is certainly one worthy of study.
Greg Bailey


From: Al Collins <nasadasin at gmail.com<mailto:nasadasin at gmail.com>>
Date: Sunday, 19 July 2015 8:03 AM
To: Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com<mailto:ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com>>
Cc: "INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>" <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] regarding Malhotra's plaguerism


"Plaguerism", indeed!

I think we need to look a little deeper into this matter, and take telling slips of the keyboard like the above seriously.  Malhotra is clearly experienced by most scholars on this list and RISA as a form of "plague," someone so far beyond the pale (sic!) that he needs to be definitively suppressed, squelched, cast into outer darkness, to use just a few of many available clich?s for what seems to most responders here to be obvious.  Of course all are at least tacitly aware that academic ire will do nothing to shut down the jingoism that is perceived to support Malhotra's project. On the contrary, it will simply increase the bias against "Western" Indology.

I suggest that the focus be kept on Malhotra as a post-colonial agent, not on the man as purported plagiarist.  What he is trying to do belongs with the work of Indian freedom fighters like Aurobindo, Vivekananda, and Gandhi, and is not an attempt to compete with Halbfass, Renou, or Pollock.  He is a public intellectual, and I think standards  for citation are different for such individuals. Think of fueilletonists in Weimar Germany like Walter Benjamin, Karl Kraus, Josef Strauss. Or thinkers like Freud, Jung, Koestler.  Malhotra is a kind of journalist, one with an ax to grind (like most journalists) but certainly he has never claimed to be a scholar and should not be attacked for being a bad one.

The question we should ask is why this obvious fact is not clear. Malhotra should be considered an object of study, and above all a cultural interlocutor, not a failed academic competitor.  He needs to be taken seriously as a Hindu or contemporary Indian phenomenon, not as a scholar, for which he would never be mistaken.

Al Collins, Ph.D., Ph.D.


Al Collins, Ph.D., Ph.D., BCN
Clinical and cultural psychologist
615 E. 82nd Ave. #102
Anchorage, AK 99518
907-344-3338
https://pacifica.academia.edu/AlfredCollins

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com<mailto:ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com>> wrote:

On Jul 17, 2015, at 3:17 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at GMAIL.COM<mailto:gthomgt at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:

>With regard to his own lack of quotation marks, Malhotra argues somewhere [on RISA?] that the early Sanskritists also did not have quotation marks either.  But in fact they did have quotations marks.  They used the quotative particle iti going all the way back to the
Rigveda. Malhotra?s remarks are either profoundly ignorant or profoundly disingenuous.<

Malhotra?s actual words are ?Sanskrit does not even have quotation marks in its character set.? (cf. ?Rajiv Malhotra says those accusing him of plagiarism are really out to silence his voice,? Newslaundry of 2015-07-15. http://www.newslaundry.com/2015/07/15/rajiv-malhotra-says-those-accusing-him-of-plagiarism-are-really-out-to-silence-his-voice/

The words ?in its character set? make it clear that Malhotra had written or printed Sanskrit in mind. Obviously, he should not be quoted by dropping that part of his statement which serves to avoid a possible misunderstanding of his point.

This must be the first time in human history that one or two missed quotation marks led to a petition for not publishing an author?s books. Could there be something offensively exciting in some absences? Could the fact that there were many attributions in the same context to the author whose paragraphs Malhotra is supposed to have plagiarized be an insurmountable obstacle for some readers in noting that credit has been given where it was due? Or, did the readers experience a blinding let-down when the attributions suddenly stopped coming?

a.a.




_______________________________________________
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From nasadasin at gmail.com  Sun Jul 19 07:53:14 2015
From: nasadasin at gmail.com (Al Collins)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 15 23:53:14 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra's motives
Message-ID: <CAHiOYM975+b-jf7M61hwGq_rm+wpTB6Pcaw2-R=XnMh6rckLcA@mail.gmail.com>

I still question whether Rajiv Malhotra intentionally plagiarized, even in
view of the citations presented on this list and RISA. He could have made
it clearer he did not agree with Nicholson, Halbfass, and others about the
interpretation of their data and ideas, but plagiarism (like theft, murder,
and so on), implies intent, in this case intent to steal another's work and
present it as one's own. Intent, in turn, implies motive, a reason why he
would want to present another person?s work as his. I see no compelling
evidence of intent or motive here. Part of what happened could be what
psychoanalysts have called "cryptomnesia," or forgetting that one has read
something elsewhere, then remembering the content without the detail that
it was found in another?s work.  That is a phenomenon so common that
probably everyone will remember doing it (though the eventual recognition
is inevitably less frequent than instances never recalled).  The apparently
flagrant 77 word unattributed quotation could be what Malhotra ?remembered?
(wrongly) to have been his paraphrase of a section of Nicholson?s book. He
could simply have forgotten that he wrote down verbatim what he found in
the other man?s book, and later thought the note he had typed was his own
restatement of the idea.  He might even have ?remembered? thinking it
himself! Either case would be akin to the ?false memory syndrome? studied
by Elizabeth Loftus and others which shows memory to be constantly
reconstructed under the influence of personal motives.  This is well
established to be a universal phenomenon to which we are all prey, although
careful research procedures can minimize it.  Malhotra was not careful (to
say the least). But, then, he is not doing research.

            Considering Malhotra's aim may clarify matters. He is defending
a position that owes almost nothing to the texts he quotes. Rather, he is
proof texting, selecting what he thinks supports his own, deeply held
opinions. There is no desire to be original in his choice of data; in fact,
he wants his data to come from someone else. If they didn't, they wouldn't
"prove" his point.
Al Collins

Al Collins, Ph.D., Ph.D.


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From r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org  Sun Jul 19 08:31:46 2015
From: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org (Richard Mahoney)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 20:31:46 +1200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra's motives
In-Reply-To: <CAHiOYM975+b-jf7M61hwGq_rm+wpTB6Pcaw2-R=XnMh6rckLcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55AB6072.80400@indica-et-buddhica.org>

On 19/07/15 19:53, Al Collins wrote:

> I still question whether Rajiv Malhotra intentionally plagiarized, 
> even in view of the citations presented on this list and RISA. ...

[snip]

> ... Part of what happened could be what psychoanalysts have called 
> "cryptomnesia," or forgetting that one has read something elsewhere, 
> then remembering the content without the detail that it was found in 
> another?s work.  That is a phenomenon so common that probably 
> everyone will remember doing it (though the eventual recognition is 
> inevitably less frequent than instances never recalled).  The 
> apparently flagrant 77 word unattributed quotation could be what 
> Malhotra ?remembered? (wrongly) to have been his paraphrase of a 
> section of Nicholson?s book. He could simply have forgotten that he 
> wrote down verbatim what he found in the other man?s book, and later 
> thought the note he had typed was his own restatement of the idea. He
> might even have ?remembered? thinking it himself! Either case would
> be akin to the ?false memory syndrome? studied by Elizabeth Loftus
> and others which shows memory to be constantly reconstructed under
> the influence of personal motives. This is well established to be a
> universal phenomenon to which we are all prey, although careful 
> research procedures can minimize it.

And who knows, RM may simply have read his sources so closely and
intently that he came to make them his own. If only such could be the
lot of all good Anglicans:

``... to be written for our learning. Grant that we may in such wise
hear them, read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest them, that by patience
...''

So perhaps N. &c. could to some degree feel flattered?  :)


Best, R


-- 
Richard Mahoney

Littledene  Bay Road  Oxford  NZ
M: +64-21-064-0216  T: +64-3-312-1699
r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org

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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Sun Jul 19 11:24:15 2015
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 13:24:15 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra's motives
In-Reply-To: <55AB87F4.9090300@uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <55AB88DF.2030103@uni-muenchen.de>

Richard Mahoney wrote:

> [?] And who knows, RM may simply have read his sources so closely and
> intently that he came to make them his own. [?]
> So perhaps N. &c. could to some degree feel flattered?  :)

I could not fail to notice that that odd website
https://traditionresponds.wordpress.com/ (made by heroically anonymous
"Independent Readers and Reviewers") presents itself as "Tradition
Responds" and a "Rebuttal of false allegations against Hindu scholarship".

If "Hindu scholarship" and "Tradition" mean that one may (or must?)
shamelessly copy stuff from Nicholson, Olender and who else (like
"Halfbass"), then one wonders what traditional Hindu scholarship and
tradition, in the eyes of those "Independent Readers and Reviewers", is
worth. Shame on them.

RZ

-- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institute of Indology and Tibetology
University of Munich Germany





From dhammadinnaa at gmail.com  Sun Jul 19 12:09:15 2015
From: dhammadinnaa at gmail.com (bhikkhuni Dhammadinna)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 20:09:15 +0800
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_pdf_request:_=E2=80=8BGeschichte_der_indischen_Philosophie?=
Message-ID: <CAOhQ1WcPUqkOee_T6JK_FfbP6sXxOmm_PE7boAjaC-E8ix3muQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,
greetings.
Does anyone happen to have a scan of Erich Frauwallner's
??
Geschichte der indischen Philosophie (both volumes)?
It has proven quite difficult to get hold of it here in Taiwan.
With many thanks and all best wishes,
Dhammadinn?


Dr Bhikkhun? Dhammadinn?
Associate Research Professor
Director, ?gama Research Group
Library and Information Center
Department of Buddhist Studies
Dharma Drum Institute of Liberal Arts
Jinshan, Taiwan
website <http://agamaresearch.ddbc.edu.tw/?page_id=48>?


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From kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de  Sun Jul 19 12:23:00 2015
From: kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 14:23:00 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pdf_request:_=E2=80=8BGeschichte_der_indischen_Philosophie?=
In-Reply-To: <CAOhQ1WcPUqkOee_T6JK_FfbP6sXxOmm_PE7boAjaC-E8ix3muQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55AB96A4.7020308@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de>

Frauwallner's "Geschichte der indischen Philosophie" has been reprinted
in 2003 by Shaker Verlag in Germany
(http://www.shaker.de/de/content/catalogue/index.asp?ID=7&AID=826&SHV=yes).
It is also available as an online-publication for sale from the
publisher's website (and comes as a PDF).

In the interest of supporting specialized academic publishers, I would
encourage purchasing the publication from them.

With best regards,

Birgit Kellner

Am 19.07.2015 um 14:09 schrieb bhikkhuni Dhammadinna:
> Dear Colleagues,
> greetings.
> Does anyone happen to have a scan of Erich Frauwallner's
> ??
> Geschichte der indischen Philosophie (both volumes)?
> It has proven quite difficult to get hold of it here in Taiwan.
> With many thanks and all best wishes,
> Dhammadinn?
> /
> /
> /
> /
> Dr Bhikkhun? Dhammadinn?
> Associate Research Professor
> Director, ?gama Research Group
> Library and Information Center
> Department of Buddhist Studies
> Dharma Drum Institute of Liberal Arts
> Jinshan, Taiwan
> website <http://agamaresearch.ddbc.edu.tw/?page_id=48>?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 


-- 
----------
Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Chair of Buddhist Studies
Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context - The
Dynamics of Transculturality"
University of Heidelberg
Karl Jaspers Centre
Vo?stra?e 2, Building 4400
D-69115 Heidelberg
Phone: +49(0)6221 - 54 4301 (Office Ina Chebbi: 4363)
Fax: +49(0)6221 - 54 4012





From Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu  Sun Jul 19 12:36:46 2015
From: Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu (Walser, Joseph)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 12:36:46 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra's motives
In-Reply-To: <CAHiOYM975+b-jf7M61hwGq_rm+wpTB6Pcaw2-R=XnMh6rckLcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9CFE85B9-8C17-4F4F-8479-4ADFD6A4856B@tufts.edu>

I sense there is a lot of schadenfreude in this discussion, especially since Malhotra would be the first to point out such errors in others works. However, I think many of us worry that we might have let a quote or two slip by my in our published work and I for one am not about to throw stones much less censor the man. I think it would be more productive to the list to discuss his arguments than his lack of quotation marks.
J



On Jul 19, 2015, at 3:53 AM, Al Collins <nasadasin at gmail.com<mailto:nasadasin at gmail.com>> wrote:




I still question whether Rajiv Malhotra intentionally plagiarized, even in view of the citations presented on this list and RISA. He could have made it clearer he did not agree with Nicholson, Halbfass, and others about the interpretation of their data and ideas, but plagiarism (like theft, murder, and so on), implies intent, in this case intent to steal another's work and present it as one's own. Intent, in turn, implies motive, a reason why he would want to present another person?s work as his. I see no compelling evidence of intent or motive here. Part of what happened could be what psychoanalysts have called "cryptomnesia," or forgetting that one has read something elsewhere, then remembering the content without the detail that it was found in another?s work.  That is a phenomenon so common that probably everyone will remember doing it (though the eventual recognition is inevitably less frequent than instances never recalled).  The apparently flagrant 77 word unattributed quotation could be what Malhotra ?remembered? (wrongly) to have been his paraphrase of a section of Nicholson?s book. He could simply have forgotten that he wrote down verbatim what he found in the other man?s book, and later thought the note he had typed was his own restatement of the idea.  He might even have ?remembered? thinking it himself! Either case would be akin to the ?false memory syndrome? studied by Elizabeth Loftus and others which shows memory to be constantly reconstructed under the influence of personal motives.  This is well established to be a universal phenomenon to which we are all prey, although careful research procedures can minimize it.  Malhotra was not careful (to say the least). But, then, he is not doing research.

            Considering Malhotra's aim may clarify matters. He is defending a position that owes almost nothing to the texts he quotes. Rather, he is proof texting, selecting what he thinks supports his own, deeply held opinions. There is no desire to be original in his choice of data; in fact, he wants his data to come from someone else. If they didn't, they wouldn't "prove" his point.

Al Collins

Al Collins, Ph.D., Ph.D.
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From hr at ivs.edu  Sun Jul 19 12:38:37 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 14:38:37 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra's motives
In-Reply-To: <9CFE85B9-8C17-4F4F-8479-4ADFD6A4856B@tufts.edu>
Message-ID: <A74B34EF-CA2F-4DFE-B250-4510B36CC719@ivs.edu>

Thank you.

> On Jul 19, 2015, at 2:36 PM, Walser, Joseph <Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu> wrote:
> 
> I sense there is a lot of schadenfreude in this discussion, especially since Malhotra would be the first to point out such errors in others works. However, I think many of us worry that we might have let a quote or two slip by my in our published work and I for one am not about to throw stones much less censor the man. I think it would be more productive to the list to discuss his arguments than his lack of quotation marks.
> J 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 19, 2015, at 3:53 AM, Al Collins <nasadasin at gmail.com <mailto:nasadasin at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> I still question whether Rajiv Malhotra intentionally plagiarized, even in view of the citations presented on this list and RISA. He could have made it clearer he did not agree with Nicholson, Halbfass, and others about the interpretation of their data and ideas, but plagiarism (like theft, murder, and so on), implies intent, in this case intent to steal another's work and present it as one's own. Intent, in turn, implies motive, a reason why he would want to present another person?s work as his. I see no compelling evidence of intent or motive here. Part of what happened could be what psychoanalysts have called "cryptomnesia," or forgetting that one has read something elsewhere, then remembering the content without the detail that it was found in another?s work.  That is a phenomenon so common that probably everyone will remember doing it (though the eventual recognition is inevitably less frequent than instances never recalled).  The apparently flagrant 77 word unattributed quotation could be what Malhotra ?remembered? (wrongly) to have been his paraphrase of a section of Nicholson?s book. He could simply have forgotten that he wrote down verbatim what he found in the other man?s book, and later thought the note he had typed was his own restatement of the idea.  He might even have ?remembered? thinking it himself! Either case would be akin to the ?false memory syndrome? studied by Elizabeth Loftus and others which shows memory to be constantly reconstructed under the influence of personal motives.  This is well established to be a universal phenomenon to which we are all prey, although careful research procedures can minimize it.  Malhotra was not careful (to say the least). But, then, he is not doing research.
>> 
>>             Considering Malhotra's aim may clarify matters. He is defending a position that owes almost nothing to the texts he quotes. Rather, he is proof texting, selecting what he thinks supports his own, deeply held opinions. There is no desire to be original in his choice of data; in fact, he wants his data to come from someone else. If they didn't, they wouldn't "prove" his point.
>> 
>> Al Collins
>> 
>> Al Collins, Ph.D., Ph.D.
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From dhammadinnaa at gmail.com  Sun Jul 19 13:23:39 2015
From: dhammadinnaa at gmail.com (bhikkhuni Dhammadinna)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 21:23:39 +0800
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_pdf_request:_=E2=80=8BGeschichte_der_indischen_Philosophie_(received)?=
Message-ID: <CAOhQ1WeNWTqAqY+=uq9BkkM03wb9x4mivgJ__1Q3rfg97gqnNQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,
the requested scans have been instantly sent by Alessandro Battistini
(Rome).
What a spoiler for the first time I am actively 'using' (sic) this list!
With all best wishes,
Dhammadinn?


Dr Bhikkhun? Dhammadinn?
Associate Research Professor
Director, ?gama Research Group
Library and Information Center
Department of Buddhist Studies
Dharma Drum Institute of Liberal Arts
Jinshan, Taiwan
website <http://agamaresearch.ddbc.edu.tw/?page_id=48>?


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From dhammadinnaa at gmail.com  Sun Jul 19 16:05:52 2015
From: dhammadinnaa at gmail.com (bhikkhuni Dhammadinna)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 00:05:52 +0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf request: Geschichte der indischen Philosophie
Message-ID: <CAOhQ1Wf2yQXy=BLcsf4zHQCK+6QgsnzVKTJjeyaG_Y=BdQ4GxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Birgit,
many many thanks for this information.
With kind regards,
Dhammadinn?

Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2015 14:23:00 +0200
From: Birgit Kellner <kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de>
To: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] pdf request: ?Geschichte der indischen
        Philosophie
Message-ID: <55AB96A4.7020308 at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Frauwallner's "Geschichte der indischen Philosophie" has been reprinted
in 2003 by Shaker Verlag in Germany
(http://www.shaker.de/de/content/catalogue/index.asp?ID=7&AID=826&SHV=yes).
It is also available as an online-publication for sale from the
publisher's website (and comes as a PDF).

In the interest of supporting specialized academic publishers, I would
encourage purchasing the publication from them.

With best regards,

Birgit Kellner


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jul 19 16:23:09 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 18:23:09 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra's motives
In-Reply-To: <CAHiOYM975+b-jf7M61hwGq_rm+wpTB6Pcaw2-R=XnMh6rckLcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcGnNmq7ZzYDFtrDSC+BuPs3r8q7YtJi1t1+A0ueFJ68Q@mail.gmail.com>

I disagree with Al Collins' assertion that plagiarism implies intent.  To
continue the simile, plagiarism is like manslaughter rather than like
murder.  It's what you actually do, not limited by what you intended to
do.

All university-level scholars know that plagiarism is one of the cardinal
sins of academic life.  A significant part of our time as teachers is spent
drumming it into our students' heads that they can copy stuff, but it
*must* be clearly flagged and attributed, and there are limits.  Plagiarism
is one of those academic wrongs like moral turpitude, for which people lose
their jobs.   As the WikiPedia page says
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism#In_academia_and_journalism>,

For professors and researchers, plagiarism is punished by sanctions ranging
from suspension to termination, along with the loss of credibility and
perceived integrity.[16]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism#cite_note-16>[17]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism#cite_note-17> Charges of
plagiarism against students and professors are typically heard by internal
disciplinary committees, by which students and professors have agreed to be
bound.[18] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism#cite_note-18>
Precisely because plagiarism is a very big deal, and precisely because we
all know about cryptomnesia and false memory (at least, that we're fallible
in general terms), academic writers and academic editors must take
responsibility for checking written work for plagiarism, just as they check
for spelling errors or data errors.  You couldn't defend the publication of
a paper full of mathematical errors on the grounds that you never *meant*
to make those errors, and they were unconscious!

I fail completely to comprehend an argument based on the idea that a book
of revisionist historical and intellectual advocacy may be allowed to
contain plagarized passages because it does not qualify as research.
Plagiarism is a mechanical process of copying without attribution: it
doesn't matter whether it's in a book or in a bus ticket.

It's your responsibility as an aspiring participant in human intellectual
life to make your work as good as possible, and that includes *not copying
out other people's work and passing it off as your own*.  Consciously or
unconsciously, for research or for mere advocacy.

Best wishes,
Dominik Wujastyk


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jul 19 16:26:50 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 18:26:50 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] regarding Malhotra's plaguerism
In-Reply-To: <CAHiOYM_8DvAdPSmn2Dr_0Qa26AWSGiv7x0mwbXsnP+bUSvrz4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CfJaYc1OcfYxHdB_XyBq3KiebgrqXbT3qBi6JyqOnyiDw@mail.gmail.com>

I entirely fail to understand the defence of plagiarism on the grounds that
Sanskrit has no quotation marks.  Malhotra's books are written in English.

Dominik Wujastyk

?


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jul 19 16:33:04 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 18:33:04 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Speaking_of_plagiarism:_Satya_Prakash_Sarasvati_and_Satyakam_Vidyalankar=E2=80=99s_=E1=B9=9Agveda?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekb+g+XtgA5ux2H-A0uvkecAT2Y+nLnrW0raD80xHxkBsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeS8jXe_+xq1VTsn5KnDpd7EBYA=C-bXmw9kfYRDRyCBg@mail.gmail.com>

Two wrongs don't make a right.  (If that's what you meant.)
?
?
Dominik Wujastyk?


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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Sun Jul 19 17:49:13 2015
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 11:49:13 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Speaking_of_plagiarism:_Satya_Prakash_Sarasvati_and_Satyakam_Vidyalankar=E2=80=99s_=E1=B9=9Agveda?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeS8jXe_+xq1VTsn5KnDpd7EBYA=C-bXmw9kfYRDRyCBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekbQXRUtGndHcxqAv6aS+ZjVYkRJn9iLc5O+tgHTAew-+g@mail.gmail.com>

No, I did not intend to imply anything about Malhotra's writings, which I
have never read. I wanted to call attention to two other cases of
plagiarism, far more extensive than Malhotra's. Even if the possibility
that something might be done about them is remote, it may be useful to know
about them.

I was very disappointed when I saw what T. G. Mainkar had done with
the S??khyak?rik?
and Gau?ap?da?s commentary, copying even omissions and typographical errors
in Har Dutt Sharma's translation. It seems that all he did was read and
edit the English, without even consulting the Sanskrit. He improved some
English words here and there, and deleted all the parentheses that Sharma
had used to distinguish his own additions from what is in the Sanskrit. Yet
Sharma's superior translation has fallen into oblivion, while Mainkar's was
again reprinted in 2004. I have scanned and posted Sharma's book in three
parts here:
http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/

Similarly, I was very disappointed to see that Satya Prakash Sarasvati and
Satyakam Vidyalankar had largely only copied Wilson's translation of
the ?gveda,
substituting God for the Vedic gods. The notes they added are helpful, and
they reproduced Aufrecht's romanized text, and also a devanagari text. But
I expected their translation to follow the Arya Samaj line of
interpretation throughout, so that we could see how it differs from S?ya?a?s
interpretation. What unsuspecting readers got instead, other than God for
the gods, was in fact S?ya?a?s interpretation, by way of the silent
appropriation of Wilson's translation.

My own work is textual, and these two cases of plagiarism are more
important to me than is Malhotra's case. I wanted to use the opportunity
that this discussion of plagiarism provided to call attention to these two
cases. Sorry that I did not distinguish them more clearly from Malhotra's
case.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.

On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Two wrongs don't make a right.  (If that's what you meant.)
> ?
> ?
> Dominik Wujastyk?
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From glhart at berkeley.edu  Sun Jul 19 18:12:59 2015
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 11:12:59 -0700
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Speaking_of_plagiarism:_Satya_Prakash_Sarasvati_and_Satyakam_Vidyalankar=E2=80=99s_=E1=B9=9Agveda?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekbQXRUtGndHcxqAv6aS+ZjVYkRJn9iLc5O+tgHTAew-+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9E04406D-EC8C-41EF-ABAD-1565EC6FA6C1@berkeley.edu>

I remember years ago when I was studying Sanskrit Ingalls mentioned that Monier Williams had apparently copied from Boethlingk-Roth without attribution. He said that Boethlingk was able to adduce entries in Monier Williams that had the same mistakes originally made on the SP Lexicon. Plus ?a change?. George Hart

> On Jul 19, 2015, at 10:49 AM, David and Nancy Reigle <dnreigle at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> No, I did not intend to imply anything about Malhotra's writings, which I have never read. I wanted to call attention to two other cases of plagiarism, far more extensive than Malhotra's. Even if the possibility that something might be done about them is remote, it may be useful to know about them.
> 
> I was very disappointed when I saw what T. G. Mainkar had done with the S??khyak?rik? and Gau?ap?da?s commentary, copying even omissions and typographical errors in Har Dutt Sharma's translation. It seems that all he did was read and edit the English, without even consulting the Sanskrit. He improved some English words here and there, and deleted all the parentheses that Sharma had used to distinguish his own additions from what is in the Sanskrit. Yet Sharma's superior translation has fallen into oblivion, while Mainkar's was again reprinted in 2004. I have scanned and posted Sharma's book in three parts here: http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/ <http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/>
> 
> Similarly, I was very disappointed to see that Satya Prakash Sarasvati and Satyakam Vidyalankar had largely only copied Wilson's translation of the ?gveda, substituting God for the Vedic gods. The notes they added are helpful, and they reproduced Aufrecht's romanized text, and also a devanagari text. But I expected their translation to follow the Arya Samaj line of interpretation throughout, so that we could see how it differs from S?ya?a?s interpretation. What unsuspecting readers got instead, other than God for the gods, was in fact S?ya?a?s interpretation, by way of the silent appropriation of Wilson's translation.
> 
> My own work is textual, and these two cases of plagiarism are more important to me than is Malhotra's case. I wanted to use the opportunity that this discussion of plagiarism provided to call attention to these two cases. Sorry that I did not distinguish them more clearly from Malhotra's case.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> David Reigle
> Colorado, U.S.A.
> 
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com <mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Two wrongs don't make a right.  (If that's what you meant.)
> ??
> Dominik Wujastyk?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
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From rpg at berkeley.edu  Sun Jul 19 19:20:54 2015
From: rpg at berkeley.edu (Robert Goldman)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 12:20:54 -0700
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Speaking_of_plagiarism:_Satya_Prakash_Sarasvati_and_Satyakam_Vidyalankar=E2=80=99s_=E1=B9=9Agveda?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekbQXRUtGndHcxqAv6aS+ZjVYkRJn9iLc5O+tgHTAew-+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6AAAC09E-D909-4F64-BD80-55FFF12D865E@berkeley.edu>

Since the topic has come up, it is illuminating as David and Nancy have done, to look beyond the wretched and ignorant writings of Mr. Malhotra to examples of work in wide circulation in which the author?s unethical reliance on earlier scholarship has not been widely noticed.

The most serious and extensive example we have  encountered in the course of our work is Hari Prasad Shastri?s three volume English translation of the V?lm?kir?m?ya?a, The Ramayana of Valmiki (London: Shanti Sadan 1959). This work has been very substantially translated directly from Alfred Roussel?s 1903 French translation Le R?m?ya?a de V?lm?ki, (Paris: Librairie des cinq parties du monde. Biblioth?que Orientale, no. 8.) as Sally Sutherland Goldman and I have amply documented throughout  the annotation of our translations of the epic?s Sundara, Yuddha and Uttara (now in press) k???as.

As others have noted Sanskrit does  of course have a widely used marker of quotations in the form of the particle iti and the numerous authors with whom we have worked are quite meticulous in citing their sources whether they agree or disagree with the quoted authors or texts. They do not necessarily cite, as  modern western protocol requires, by chapter and verse, generally being content with ascriptions to a text, a body of text or an author as in iti ?ruti?, iti p?dme, iti bha??at?rth?u etc. But that is the normal scholarly protocol of their intellectual tradition.

Bob Goldman
Dr. R. P.  Goldman
Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540
The University of California at Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720-2540
Tel: 510-642-4089
Fax: 510-642-2409



> On Jul 19, 2015, at 10:49 AM, David and Nancy Reigle <dnreigle at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> No, I did not intend to imply anything about Malhotra's writings, which I have never read. I wanted to call attention to two other cases of plagiarism, far more extensive than Malhotra's. Even if the possibility that something might be done about them is remote, it may be useful to know about them.
> 
> I was very disappointed when I saw what T. G. Mainkar had done with the S??khyak?rik? and Gau?ap?da?s commentary, copying even omissions and typographical errors in Har Dutt Sharma's translation. It seems that all he did was read and edit the English, without even consulting the Sanskrit. He improved some English words here and there, and deleted all the parentheses that Sharma had used to distinguish his own additions from what is in the Sanskrit. Yet Sharma's superior translation has fallen into oblivion, while Mainkar's was again reprinted in 2004. I have scanned and posted Sharma's book in three parts here: http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/ <http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/>
> 
> Similarly, I was very disappointed to see that Satya Prakash Sarasvati and Satyakam Vidyalankar had largely only copied Wilson's translation of the ?gveda, substituting God for the Vedic gods. The notes they added are helpful, and they reproduced Aufrecht's romanized text, and also a devanagari text. But I expected their translation to follow the Arya Samaj line of interpretation throughout, so that we could see how it differs from S?ya?a?s interpretation. What unsuspecting readers got instead, other than God for the gods, was in fact S?ya?a?s interpretation, by way of the silent appropriation of Wilson's translation.
> 
> My own work is textual, and these two cases of plagiarism are more important to me than is Malhotra's case. I wanted to use the opportunity that this discussion of plagiarism provided to call attention to these two cases. Sorry that I did not distinguish them more clearly from Malhotra's case.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> David Reigle
> Colorado, U.S.A.
> 
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com <mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Two wrongs don't make a right.  (If that's what you meant.)
> ??
> Dominik Wujastyk?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sun Jul 19 19:36:53 2015
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 14:36:53 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Honor code (Was Re: Raji Malhotra, plagiarism,	and the Saraswati)
In-Reply-To: <4482CD7805B94C259DE6396108ECA6F0@Dan>
Message-ID: <F1F62709-2622-4B06-AF00-88571223760A@aol.com>

Thank you, Dan

The Harvard Honor Code <http://honor.fas.harvard.edu/honor-code> addresses more than mere plagiarism when it comes to academic integrity. I would like to know what type of instances Indologists would consider as or have come across as not "appropriate collection and use of data? or ?falsifying data? mentioned by the Honor Code.

Thanks in advance

Regards,
Palaniappan


> On Jul 17, 2015, at 4:27 PM, Dan Lusthaus <yogacara at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> That has also been the long-term policy at Harvard. See
> http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k103659&pageid=icb.page666096 <http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k103659&pageid=icb.page666096>
> which provides detailed instructions for how faculty is to handle varying situations.
>  
> It was tacitly understood that Harvard students would be sufficiently intelligent to know that plagiarism is a no-no.
>  
> The history of how the latest code came to be (a process started in 2010) resulted from a student bending the rules and, instead of being contrite, unsuccessfully attempted to defend himself legally by exploiting what he claimed were lacunae in the rules. So it was decided a clearer, more concise statement that is brought to all undergraduates attention was needed. See
> http://honor.fas.harvard.edu/about-0 <http://honor.fas.harvard.edu/about-0>
>  
> Plagiarism has never been condoned at Harvard or at any other American educational institution, including our middle schools and high schools, and is subject to disciplinary action.
>  
> Dan Lusthaus
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>  
>> My university, like many, has a rather well-developed set of guidelines about academic integrity <http://guides.library.ualberta.ca/content.php?pid=560222&sid=4617994>.  There are separate sections aimed at faculty and at students. The student page "avoiding plagiarism <http://guides.library.ualberta.ca/content.php?pid=560222&sid=4618015>" contains useful guidelines that might have helped Malhotra when he was writing. There is a video guide about what is and what is not acceptable copying <https://youtu.be/8Bx5DAqTPhU>.  Humour is a personal thing, but I found it very funny.
>> 
>> For the rappers among us, "cite your sources like a freaking adult <https://youtu.be/bT6S4ERI0o8>."
>> ?
>> ?Dominik Wujastyk?
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
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> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Sun Jul 19 22:32:04 2015
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 00:32:04 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] speaking of plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <1058105203.252379122.1437237284726.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <55AC2564.3020407@uni-muenchen.de>

koenraad.elst at telenet.be wrote:

>>Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote:
> 
>>Regarding Malhotra and plagiarism, here is Andrew Nicholson's response
> to Malhotra's plagiarism of his book:
> 
> http://scroll.in/article/742022/upset-about-rajiv-malhotras-plagiarism-even-more-upset-about-distortions-of-my-work
> <
>  
>  
> I am aware that not all people and not all lists care about hearing both
> sides of the story before forming their own opinion. Fortunately this is
> a scholarly list, where members cobsider it a matter of course to hear
> both sides. So you'll appreciate my furnishing the link to Malhotra's reply:
>  
>  
> http://swarajyamag.com/culture/dear-andrew-nicholson/

Okay, here is my conclusion after reading what both sides have to say --

It's amusing to see Mr Malhotra embarrass himself still further. He
sidetracks and fudges, with a lot of barely disguised ethnic innuendo,
and he claims Nicholson has copied from Indian informants -- no names
given, no quotes, no references to any writings, not even a detailed
description of just what our colleague Nicholson is supposed to have
copied; no concrete examples of where Nicholson has verbatim copied long
passages from the writings of Indian scholars (in which case those
scholars would have to complain about Nicholson, instead of Mr Malhotra
claiming the right to be above academic and journalistic mores).

"I challenge you [Nicholson] to disclose all your Indian teachers", Mr
Malhotra writes. This is grotesque. Let him rather tell us where
Nicholson has plagiarized whom, if he knows so well what he is talking
about. This kind of 'challenges' won't do.

The most absurd thing about this line of argumentation of course is that
a most vaguely presumed and unproven wrong by person A (Nicholson)
cannot justify a documented wrong by person B (Malhotra).

In all its aggressive vagueness, the piece seems to argue that there is
no such thing as plagiarism, or if there is, that Nicholson is a
plagiarist (as mentioned above: just a wild claim, no evidence given).
Also, very importantly, that Nicholson is a mere mleccha and not an
'adhikari', and therefore a self-proclaimed champion of Indian culture
like Malhotra believes he is allowed to do with Nicholson's (or others',
for that matter) writings as he likes.

If this pathetic clown's act is the best Mr Malhotra can do in his
defence, it more or less amounts to a confession that he was caught
red-handed. And if he presents this as a defence of Indian tradition and
learning (thereby implicitly insulting conscientious Indian scholars!)
against the evil white man to whom he refers in his fourth paragraph, he
is not really doing anyone a favour. He is merely being disgusting.

But I hope that he will soon (at least in our lifetime) bring out that
announced correspondence with "Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, to name
just a few" and expose their "secrets". (Maybe we should "challenge" him
to do that?) I suspect that we will all have a big laugh.

RZ

-- 
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
Institute of Indology and Tibetology
University of Munich
Germany





From gthomgt at gmail.com  Sun Jul 19 22:33:30 2015
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 18:33:30 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Speaking_of_plagiarism:_Satya_Prakash_Sarasvati_and_Satyakam_Vidyalankar=E2=80=99s_=E1=B9=9Agveda?=
In-Reply-To: <6AAAC09E-D909-4F64-BD80-55FFF12D865E@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zvp54NOv_NfHGe=C15qkVgUOJzBbUhvPVRtvxVbbFB-1w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

Let me clarify my contributions to this discussion.  I am not very much
troubled by Malhotra's plagiarism.  I haven't read any of his books [why
would I? there's nothing there for me!].  No, what troubles me about
Malhotra is that he is  a man with a lot of money who has managed to buy
his way into Indology, and he has bought not only a bunch of nativist
Hindutvavadis!  He has bought a lot of mainstream Sanskritists as well.
See Stella Sandahl's query about his Infinity foundation's funding of a
chair at Harvard.  He has been buying up Sanskritists just as Donald Trump
has been buying up American panditas here in the USA.

So, as Greg Bailey and others have suggested, let us look at his vile
ideology. So, really, does he really say in his plagiarized books that the
only people who can understand and translate Hindu texts are Hindus?  Well,
let us talk about that too.

Best wishes

George Thompson

On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 3:20 PM, Robert Goldman <rpg at berkeley.edu> wrote:

> Since the topic has come up, it is illuminating as David and Nancy have
> done, to look beyond the wretched and ignorant writings of Mr. Malhotra to
> examples of work in wide circulation in which the author?s unethical
> reliance on earlier scholarship has not been widely noticed.
>
> The most serious and extensive example we have  encountered in the course
> of our work is Hari Prasad Shastri?s three volume English translation of
> the *V?lm?kir?m?ya?a*, *The Ramayana of Valmiki *(London: Shanti Sadan
> 1959). This work has been very substantially translated directly from
> Alfred Roussel?s 1903 French translation* Le R?m?ya?a de V?lm?ki*,
> (Paris: Librairie des cinq parties du monde. Biblioth?que Orientale, no.
> 8.) as Sally Sutherland Goldman and I have amply documented throughout  the
> annotation of our translations of the epic?s *Sundara*, *Yuddha* and
> *Uttara* (now in press) *k???as*.
>
> As others have noted Sanskrit does  of course have a widely used marker of
> quotations in the form of the particle *iti* and the numerous authors
> with whom we have worked are quite meticulous in citing their sources
> whether they agree or disagree with the quoted authors or texts. They do
> not necessarily cite, as  modern western protocol requires, by chapter and
> verse, generally being content with ascriptions to a text, a body of text
> or an author as in *iti ?ruti?*, *iti p?dme*, *iti bha??at?rth?u *etc.
> But that is the normal scholarly protocol of their intellectual tradition.
>
> Bob Goldman
> Dr. R. P.  Goldman
> Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and
> Southeast Asian Studies
> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540
> The University of California at Berkeley
> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540
> Tel: 510-642-4089
> Fax: 510-642-2409
>
>
>
> On Jul 19, 2015, at 10:49 AM, David and Nancy Reigle <dnreigle at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> No, I did not intend to imply anything about Malhotra's writings, which I
> have never read. I wanted to call attention to two other cases of
> plagiarism, far more extensive than Malhotra's. Even if the possibility
> that something might be done about them is remote, it may be useful to know
> about them.
>
> I was very disappointed when I saw what T. G. Mainkar had done with the S??khyak?rik?
> and Gau?ap?da?s commentary, copying even omissions and typographical
> errors in Har Dutt Sharma's translation. It seems that all he did was read
> and edit the English, without even consulting the Sanskrit. He improved
> some English words here and there, and deleted all the parentheses that
> Sharma had used to distinguish his own additions from what is in the
> Sanskrit. Yet Sharma's superior translation has fallen into oblivion, while
> Mainkar's was again reprinted in 2004. I have scanned and posted Sharma's
> book in three parts here:
> http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/
>
> Similarly, I was very disappointed to see that Satya Prakash Sarasvati
> and Satyakam Vidyalankar had largely only copied Wilson's translation of
> the ?gveda, substituting God for the Vedic gods. The notes they added are
> helpful, and they reproduced Aufrecht's romanized text, and also a
> devanagari text. But I expected their translation to follow the Arya Samaj
> line of interpretation throughout, so that we could see how it differs from S?ya?a?s
> interpretation. What unsuspecting readers got instead, other than God for
> the gods, was in fact S?ya?a?s interpretation, by way of the silent
> appropriation of Wilson's translation.
>
> My own work is textual, and these two cases of plagiarism are more
> important to me than is Malhotra's case. I wanted to use the opportunity
> that this discussion of plagiarism provided to call attention to these two
> cases. Sorry that I did not distinguish them more clearly from Malhotra's
> case.
>
> Best regards,
>
> David Reigle
> Colorado, U.S.A.
>
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Two wrongs don't make a right.  (If that's what you meant.)
>> ?
>> ?
>> Dominik Wujastyk?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Sun Jul 19 22:38:43 2015
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 00:38:43 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra's motives
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CcGnNmq7ZzYDFtrDSC+BuPs3r8q7YtJi1t1+A0ueFJ68Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55AC26F3.7080809@uni-muenchen.de>

I totally agree with Dominik's remarks concerning the seriousness and
condemnability of plagiarism.

I work in a country where leading politicians lose their positions for
that sort of thing, amidst big public scandal. I joined in a campaign to
oust a former federal cabinet minister from her position in our
university's administration when it became clear that her doctoral
thesis was partly plagiarism (and yes, she left).

When I see persons on this list defending Malhotra's unethical doings,
or playing down their significance, I wonder what their reasons could
possibily be. Maybe they are on the payroll of his foundation, or want
to get onto it? It must be something like that, because the reason
clearly cannot be intellectual uprightness.

RZ

Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> I disagree with Al Collins' assertion that plagiarism implies intent. 
> To continue the simile, plagiarism is like manslaughter rather than like
> murder.  It's what you actually do, not limited by what you intended to
> do. [?]

-- 
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
Institute of Indology and Tibetology
University of Munich
Germany





From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jul 19 23:35:20 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 01:35:20 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Speaking_of_plagiarism:_Satya_Prakash_Sarasvati_and_Satyakam_Vidyalankar=E2=80=99s_=E1=B9=9Agveda?=
In-Reply-To: <9E04406D-EC8C-41EF-ABAD-1565EC6FA6C1@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CfmacMxxmBTZO_fuSiA3FxGCioHgeGiCNs7xRRo33RV1w@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 July 2015 at 20:12, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:

> I remember years ago when I was studying Sanskrit Ingalls mentioned that
> Monier Williams had apparently copied from Boethlingk-Roth without
> attribution. He said that Boethlingk was able to adduce entries in Monier
> Williams that had the same mistakes originally made on the SP Lexicon. Plus
> ?a change?. George Hart
>

?The relationship of the MW and PW dictionaries was carefully evaluated in
the 1988 article,

Ladislav Zgusta, "Copying in Lexicography. Monier-Williams' Sanskrit
Dictionary and Other Cases (Dvaiko?yam)" *Lexicographica*, 1988, 4, 145-164.
http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/lexi.1988.4.issue-1/9783110244083.145/9783110244083.145.xml?format=INT

It's a complex and nuanced relationship, that Zgusta describes very well,
developing seven defined categories of textual dependence (A-G).  It's
worth reading the whole article, which is careful and illuminating.  Zgusta
says, p.161,

To sum up: MONIER-WILLIAMS is completely independent of PW in respect to
the general
plan of the arrangement of his dictionary, or its macrostructure (category
E, p. 157); and
in respect to his semantics, or the way in which he handles the description
of meaning by
English equivalents (cat. G, p. 159). Yet some alleged cases of copying
remain unclear
(cat. D, p. 156).
However, there is no doubt that MONIER-WILLIAMS copied some data from PW
(cat.
B, p. 154) although sometimes it is clear that while he copied without
checking in
the original sources, he gave the material thus gained some thought of his
own (cat. C, p.
155). The data which he acquired in this way are mostly of peripheral
importance; one
can easily imagine that he tried to save time in this unorthodox way. There
is. however,
one block, or set of highly important data which he completely took over,
or copied from
PW, namely the indications of Vedic morphological forms (cat. F, p. 158).
It can even be shown that MW contains not only facts or data of language
from PW,
but also interpretations conceived by B?HTLINGK and ROTH (cat. A, p. 154).
There is no defense as far as category A is concerned. As for category F
(p. 158),
it would seem that a more explicit acknowledgement in the preface to MW
would be
necessary, but also sufficient: it is against the cumulative spirit of
scientific discovery,
against the synchronic and diachronic cooperation of scholars, to repeat
some already
well done research in all its minutiae; and also, if there are myriads of
bits of information
thus obtained spread throughout a dictionary, it would be difficult to
acknowledge each
and every single piece. MONIER-WILLIAMS ought to have been more explicit in
the pre-
face; but had he been more open on the subject, this ought to have sufficed.
The same can be said mutatis mutandis about categories B and C. One simply
cannot
expect a Sanskrit lexicographer working after the publication of PW not to
use the wealth
of data published in it and re-do all the excerption himself. As in the
case of the preced-
ing category, MONIER-WILLIAMS ought to have been more explicit in his
preface. In
addition to this, he ought to have checked all second-hand date in the
primary sources to
eliminate PW's misprints and errors, which he neglected to do. (Although
the second
Ought to' perhaps may have to be reworded as 'should' in this real,
non-ideal world of
ours.)
Both in the case of categories F, and B and C, MONIER-WILLIAMS' sins are
rather those
of omission than of commission; only category A comprises a sin of
commission.

Zgusta also says, p.160,

In sum, it is not possible fully to condemn MONIER-WILLIAMS, just as it is
not possible
fully to exonerate him.  ...
MONIER-WILLIAMS and his dictionary have
been taken seriously; e.g., when G. B?HLER in his 'Lexicographic Notes'21
(p. 90) men-
tions "the three great modern Sanskrit dictionaries, compiled by
Europeans", it is clear
that he puts MW into the same category as PW and pw. The same scholar also
discusses
(ibid., p. 86) a case where MONIER-WILLIAMS indicated his doubt about a
translational
equivalent given in PW and was right in his skepsis. It must also be
mentioned that not
only did MONIER-WILLIAMS get an honorary PhD degree from the University of
G?ttin-
gen, but also that such serious scholars as E. LEUMANN (Strassburg) and C.
CAPELLER
(Jena) did not hesitate to cooperate with him on the second edition of MW.

Best,
Dominik Wujastyk


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From shyamr at yorku.ca  Mon Jul 20 00:20:48 2015
From: shyamr at yorku.ca (Shyam Ranganathan)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 20:20:48 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra's motives
In-Reply-To: <55AC3EAE.7080207@yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <55AC3EE0.9050300@yorku.ca>


On 19/07/2015 8:36 AM, Walser, Joseph wrote:
> I sense there is a lot of schadenfreude in this discussion, especially 
> since Malhotra would be the first to point out such errors in others 
> works. However, I think many of us worry that we might have let a 
> quote or two slip by my in our published work and I for one am not 
> about to throw stones much less censor the man. I think it would be 
> more productive to the list to discuss his arguments than his lack of 
> quotation marks.
> J
>

I don't know what this means. When my students want a grade on their 
papers  that are partially plagiarized, I'm speechless: what am I 
supposed to grade? The idea that the student caught plagiarizing has 
argued anything is undermined by the plagiarism. Like many on this list, 
I haven't read any of Malhotra's works. But, if it is the case that he 
takes a critical view of conventional Indology, that argument would be 
harder to make if he had to acknowledge his debt to the group that he is 
criticizing. The question is whether he can make his case without the 
plagiarism.  Where my students are concerned, it is usually that they 
can't, for what they wanted to claim as their original point isn't theirs.

Best wishes,
Shyam

Shyam Ranganathan
Department of Philosophy
York University,
Toronto




>
>
> On Jul 19, 2015, at 3:53 AM, Al Collins <nasadasin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I still question whether Rajiv Malhotra intentionally plagiarized, 
>> even in view of the citations presented on this list and RISA. He 
>> could have made it clearer he did not agree with Nicholson, Halbfass, 
>> and others about the interpretation of their data and ideas, but 
>> plagiarism (like theft, murder, and so on), implies intent, in this 
>> case intent to steal another's work and present it as one's own. 
>> Intent, in turn, implies motive, a reason why he would want to 
>> present another person?s work as his. I see no compelling evidence of 
>> intent or motive here. Part of what happened could be what 
>> psychoanalysts have called "cryptomnesia," or forgetting that one has 
>> read something elsewhere, then remembering the content without the 
>> detail that it was found in another?s work.  That is a phenomenon so 
>> common that probably everyone will remember doing it (though the 
>> eventual recognition is inevitably less frequent than instances never 
>> recalled).The apparently flagrant 77 word unattributed quotation 
>> could be what Malhotra ?remembered? (wrongly) to have been his 
>> paraphrase of a section of Nicholson?s book. He could simply have 
>> forgotten that he wrote down verbatim what he found in the other 
>> man?s book, and later thought the note he had typed was his own 
>> restatement of the idea.He might even have ?remembered? thinking it 
>> himself! Either case would be akin to the ?false memory syndrome? 
>> studied by Elizabeth Loftus and others which shows memory to be 
>> constantly reconstructed under the influence of personal motives.This 
>> is well established to be a universal phenomenon to which we are all 
>> prey, although careful research procedures can minimize it.Malhotra 
>> was not careful (to say the least). But, then, he is not doing research.
>>
>> Considering Malhotra's aim may clarify matters. He is defending a 
>> position that owes almost nothing to the texts he quotes. Rather, he 
>> is proof texting, selecting what he thinks supports his own, deeply 
>> held opinions. There is no desire to be original in his choice of 
>> data; in fact, he wants his data to come from someone else. If they 
>> didn't, they wouldn't "prove" his point.
>>
>> Al Collins
>>
>> Al Collins, Ph.D., Ph.D.
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info 
>> <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's 
>> managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options 
>> or unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info  (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info  (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


-- 
Shyam Ranganathan, MA, MA, PhD
Department of Philosophy
Department of Social Science, South Asian Studies
York University, Toronto





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From adheesh1 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 03:27:26 2015
From: adheesh1 at gmail.com (Adheesh Sathaye)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 08:57:26 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] help with a short text carved in a wooden sickle sheath
In-Reply-To: <mailman.11.1437122740.17648.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <157B011C-9B66-46DD-AA64-DEDC03504140@gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues: 

Forwarded to the list on behalf of a non-member. Please reply DIRECTLY to Roelf Barkhuis at the email indicated below, as this is not my query, and he is not a member of the list.

Thanks and best wishes,
Adheesh

?
Dr. Adheesh Sathaye
Dept. of Asian Studies
University of British Columbia
408-1871 West Mall
Vancouver BC CANADA V6T1Z2
adheesh at mail.ubc.ca 
+1. 604.822.5188

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: <indology-bounces at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Auto-discard notification
> Date: July 17, 2015 at 14:15:40 GMT+5:30
> To: <indology-owner at list.indology.info>
> 
> The attached message has been automatically discarded.
> 
> From: Roelf Barkhuis <info at barkhuis.nl>
> Subject: help with a short text carved in a wooden sickle sheath
> Date: July 17, 2015 at 14:15:30 GMT+5:30
> To: <indology at list.indology.info>
> 
> 
> Dear INDOLOGY members,
> 
> I am asking for help with a short text carved on the back side of the wooden sheath or holder of a rice sickle, see the attached image. 
> 
> The owner is Ren? Cappers from Groningen University. He is currently preparing a book on traditional agriculture and food preparation. He would like to know what the text says.
> 
> With kind regards,
> 
> Roelf Barkhuis
> 
> Barkhuis
> Kooiweg 38
> 9761 GL Eelde
> the Netherlands
> +31 50 3080936 <tel:%2B31%2050%203080936>
> info at barkhuis.nl <mailto:info at barkhuis.nl>
> www.barkhuis.nl <http://www.barkhuis.nl/> 
> 
> 



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From reimann at berkeley.edu  Mon Jul 20 04:40:40 2015
From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 21:40:40 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra's motives
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CcGnNmq7ZzYDFtrDSC+BuPs3r8q7YtJi1t1+A0ueFJ68Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55AC7BC8.7030503@berkeley.edu>

Agreed, Dominik.

It is surprising to see all these posts on INDOLOGY trying to justify 
Malhotra.

Malhotra proudly says in his 'challenge' to Andrew Nicholson that:

"For the first 10 years of my work in this area, I gave away a 
substantial portion of my life savings in an unsuccessful attempt to 
fund and change the Indologists? hearts."

So he got tired of giving money to "Western" indologists (whatever a 
Western indologist is) and institutions because those Indologists would 
not change their hearts. In other words, he was not interested in 
sponsoring open research, only research that conformed to his ideology. 
Then, he explains, he turned against /them/, and "became their harshest 
critic."

And he profers a threat:

"I have on file a lot of grant correspondence with Harvard, Princeton, 
Columbia, to name just a few. Naturally, they worry that I am exposing 
their secrets. One day I will get someone to organize all that material 
into a publication."

So he is now threatening to punish these /rogue/ Indologists for not 
having converted to his ideology.

Malhotra quotes are from:

http://swarajyamag.com/culture/dear-andrew-nicholson/

Luis
_____



On 7/19/2015 9:23 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
> I disagree with Al Collins' assertion that plagiarism implies intent.  
> To continue the simile, plagiarism is like manslaughter rather than 
> like murder.  It's what you actually do, not limited by what you 
> intended to do.
>
> All university-level scholars know that plagiarism is one of the 
> cardinal sins of academic life.  A significant part of our time as 
> teachers is spent drumming it into our students' heads that they can 
> copy stuff, but it *must* be clearly flagged and attributed, and there 
> are limits.  Plagiarism is one of those academic wrongs like moral 
> turpitude, for which people lose their jobs.   As the WikiPedia page 
> says 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism#In_academia_and_journalism>,
>
> For professors and researchers, plagiarism is punished by sanctions 
> ranging from suspension to termination, along with the loss of 
> credibility and perceived integrity.^[16] 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism#cite_note-16> ^[17] 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism#cite_note-17> Charges of 
> plagiarism against students and professors are typically heard by 
> internal disciplinary committees, by which students and professors 
> have agreed to be bound.^[18] 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism#cite_note-18>
>
> Precisely because plagiarism is a very big deal, and precisely because 
> we all know about cryptomnesia and false memory (at least, that we're 
> fallible in general terms), academic writers and academic editors must 
> take responsibility for checking written work for plagiarism, just as 
> they check for spelling errors or data errors.  You couldn't defend 
> the publication of a paper full of mathematical errors on the grounds 
> that you never /meant/ to make those errors, and they were unconscious!
>
> I fail completely to comprehend an argument based on the idea that a 
> book of revisionist historical and intellectual advocacy may be 
> allowed to contain plagarized passages because it does not qualify as 
> research. Plagiarism is a mechanical process of copying without 
> attribution: it doesn't matter whether it's in a book or in a bus ticket.
>
> It's your responsibility as an aspiring participant in human 
> intellectual life to make your work as good as possible, and that 
> includes /not copying out other people's work and passing it off as 
> your own/.  Consciously or unconsciously, for research or for mere 
> advocacy.
>
> Best wishes,
> Dominik Wujastyk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From hr at ivs.edu  Mon Jul 20 04:42:46 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 06:42:46 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] passion and dispassion
Message-ID: <16C3FE5C-3087-4F0B-9E75-F6744BF0CE94@ivs.edu>

	Mr. Malhotra has been roundly, though not uniformly, rebuked on this conference. We should recall that even history?s greatest villains have been the object of extensive, even dispassionate, historical study. To give one grotesque example, scholars widely link Hitler?s rise to power to economic and social conditions in Germany after WW I. This does not entail a theory of socio-historical determinism that would entirely exonerate Hitler?s supporters, but it was a crucial factor, and it did directly inspire the Marshall Plan after WW 2.

	Those Indologists not keenly interested in contemporary Hinduism, including the Hindu-science or Hindu-Indology interface, or indeed those Indologists not particularly drawn to meta-epistemology as an often unseen, but always active determinant of Indological views ? those Indologists may be satisfied to excoriate Mr. Malhotra, at times deservedly.

	But just as the refutation of unreason is a virtue, so too is humble introspection. A thorough, dispassionate analysis of the Malhotra phenomenon would include a scholarly, disapassionate examination of the attitudes and assumptions of Indology toward objects, processes, and events held sacred by lots of people.

	Lest some misunderstand, I gratefully acknowledge the enormous and invaluable contribution of Indology to our understanding of South Asian religions and cultures. Yet the most impressive enterprises should remain open to self-critical introspection.

Best,
Howard




From reimann at berkeley.edu  Mon Jul 20 05:06:05 2015
From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 15 22:06:05 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] regarding Malhotra's plaguerism
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CfJaYc1OcfYxHdB_XyBq3KiebgrqXbT3qBi6JyqOnyiDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55AC81BD.9040403@berkeley.edu>

Dominik, the justification on those grounds would go something like this.

Malhotra defends "tradition," which is embodied in Sanskrit texts. 
Therefore, he is not bound by any modern academic conventions because he 
follows the traditional system, the one expressed in Sanskrit. And if 
?Sanskrit does not even have quotation marks in its character set,? why 
would he, a defender of the "tradition," use them.

The use of /iti/ has already been mentioned, so the whole justification 
is, of course, /null and void/, even from a 'traditional' point of view.

Luis
_____


On 7/19/2015 9:26 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
> I entirely fail to understand the defence of plagiarism on the grounds 
> that Sanskrit has no quotation marks.  Malhotra's books are written in 
> English.
>
> Dominik Wujastyk
>
> ?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Mon Jul 20 06:40:09 2015
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 08:40:09 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] passion and dispassion
In-Reply-To: <16C3FE5C-3087-4F0B-9E75-F6744BF0CE94@ivs.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEgrCzAbr98EDXYiUFwskNaW3uHK9fWdARgEZLJdSMpY7t4vaQ@mail.gmail.com>

<<But just as the refutation of unreason is a virtue, so too is humble
introspection. A thorough, dispassionate analysis of the Malhotra
phenomenon would include a scholarly, disapassionate examination of the
attitudes and assumptions of Indology toward objects, processes, and events
held sacred by lots of people.>>

Agreed, on some Malhotran points.

Yes: need for "humble introspection". But: no need for that on the side of
the representatives of the Sanskritic cultural sphere?

A "scholarly disapassionate examination of the attitudes and assumptions
of" the representatives of the Sanskritic  cultural sphere "toward objects,
processes, and events held sacred by lots of people".

Open demonstrations of disregard, deep contempt. Gatekeepers, encroachments
into the sphere of ideas punished.

Best,

Artur

2015-07-20 6:42 GMT+02:00 Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu>:

>         Mr. Malhotra has been roundly, though not uniformly, rebuked on
> this conference. We should recall that even history?s greatest villains
> have been the object of extensive, even dispassionate, historical study. To
> give one grotesque example, scholars widely link Hitler?s rise to power to
> economic and social conditions in Germany after WW I. This does not entail
> a theory of socio-historical determinism that would entirely exonerate
> Hitler?s supporters, but it was a crucial factor, and it did directly
> inspire the Marshall Plan after WW 2.
>
>         Those Indologists not keenly interested in contemporary Hinduism,
> including the Hindu-science or Hindu-Indology interface, or indeed those
> Indologists not particularly drawn to meta-epistemology as an often unseen,
> but always active determinant of Indological views ? those Indologists may
> be satisfied to excoriate Mr. Malhotra, at times deservedly.
>
>         But just as the refutation of unreason is a virtue, so too is
> humble introspection. A thorough, dispassionate analysis of the Malhotra
> phenomenon would include a scholarly, disapassionate examination of the
> attitudes and assumptions of Indology toward objects, processes, and events
> held sacred by lots of people.
>
>         Lest some misunderstand, I gratefully acknowledge the enormous and
> invaluable contribution of Indology to our understanding of South Asian
> religions and cultures. Yet the most impressive enterprises should remain
> open to self-critical introspection.
>
> Best,
> Howard
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From vjroebuck at btinternet.com  Mon Jul 20 06:49:23 2015
From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 07:49:23 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Speaking_of_plagiarism:_Satya_Prakash_Sarasvati_and_Satyakam_Vidyalankar=E2=80=99s_=E1=B9=9Agveda?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CfmacMxxmBTZO_fuSiA3FxGCioHgeGiCNs7xRRo33RV1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D2860B31-6BFD-4420-A038-B91114D972D5@btinternet.com>

I think it?s fairly safe to say that Sir Monier Monier-Williams was not a very nice person. 

E.g. from p. xxxi of his Dictionary, in the ?Acknowledgements of Assistance Received? - normally a place to be polite and grateful to people who have helped us:

'The names of my new Assistants in chronological order are as follow: -

'First, Dr. Ernst Leumann (a native of Switzerland), who worked with me in Oxford from October 3, 1882, until April 15, 1884?

'He was succeeded by the late Dr. Sch?nberg (a pupil of the late Professor B?hler), who came to me in a condition of great physical weakness, and whose assistance only extended from May 20, 1884, to July 19, 1885, when he left me to die. He was a good scholar, and a good worker, but impatient of supervision, and, despite my vigilance, I found it impossible to guard against a few errors of omission and commission due to the rapid impairment of his powers.?

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK


> On 20 Jul 2015, at 00:35, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 19 July 2015 at 20:12, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu <mailto:glhart at berkeley.edu>> wrote:
> I remember years ago when I was studying Sanskrit Ingalls mentioned that Monier Williams had apparently copied from Boethlingk-Roth without attribution. He said that Boethlingk was able to adduce entries in Monier Williams that had the same mistakes originally made on the SP Lexicon. Plus ?a change?. George Hart
> 
> ?The relationship of the MW and PW dictionaries was carefully evaluated in the 1988 article,
> 
> Ladislav Zgusta, "Copying in Lexicography. Monier-Williams' Sanskrit Dictionary and Other Cases (Dvaiko?yam)" Lexicographica, 1988, 4, 145-164.
> http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/lexi.1988.4.issue-1/9783110244083.145/9783110244083.145.xml?format=INT <http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/lexi.1988.4.issue-1/9783110244083.145/9783110244083.145.xml?format=INT>
> 
> It's a complex and nuanced relationship, that Zgusta describes very well, developing seven defined categories of textual dependence (A-G).  It's worth reading the whole article, which is careful and illuminating.  Zgusta says, p.161,
> 
> To sum up: MONIER-WILLIAMS is completely independent of PW in respect to the general
> plan of the arrangement of his dictionary, or its macrostructure (category E, p. 157); and
> in respect to his semantics, or the way in which he handles the description of meaning by
> English equivalents (cat. G, p. 159). Yet some alleged cases of copying remain unclear
> (cat. D, p. 156).
> However, there is no doubt that MONIER-WILLIAMS copied some data from PW (cat.
> B, p. 154) although sometimes it is clear that while he copied without checking in
> the original sources, he gave the material thus gained some thought of his own (cat. C, p.
> 155). The data which he acquired in this way are mostly of peripheral importance; one
> can easily imagine that he tried to save time in this unorthodox way. There is. however,
> one block, or set of highly important data which he completely took over, or copied from
> PW, namely the indications of Vedic morphological forms (cat. F, p. 158).
> It can even be shown that MW contains not only facts or data of language from PW,
> but also interpretations conceived by B?HTLINGK and ROTH (cat. A, p. 154).
> There is no defense as far as category A is concerned. As for category F (p. 158),
> it would seem that a more explicit acknowledgement in the preface to MW would be
> necessary, but also sufficient: it is against the cumulative spirit of scientific discovery,
> against the synchronic and diachronic cooperation of scholars, to repeat some already
> well done research in all its minutiae; and also, if there are myriads of bits of information
> thus obtained spread throughout a dictionary, it would be difficult to acknowledge each
> and every single piece. MONIER-WILLIAMS ought to have been more explicit in the pre-
> face; but had he been more open on the subject, this ought to have sufficed.
> The same can be said mutatis mutandis about categories B and C. One simply cannot
> expect a Sanskrit lexicographer working after the publication of PW not to use the wealth
> of data published in it and re-do all the excerption himself. As in the case of the preced-
> ing category, MONIER-WILLIAMS ought to have been more explicit in his preface. In
> addition to this, he ought to have checked all second-hand date in the primary sources to
> eliminate PW's misprints and errors, which he neglected to do. (Although the second
> Ought to' perhaps may have to be reworded as 'should' in this real, non-ideal world of
> ours.)
> Both in the case of categories F, and B and C, MONIER-WILLIAMS' sins are rather those
> of omission than of commission; only category A comprises a sin of commission.
> 
> Zgusta also says, p.160,
> 
> In sum, it is not possible fully to condemn MONIER-WILLIAMS, just as it is not possible
> fully to exonerate him.  ... 
> MONIER-WILLIAMS and his dictionary have
> been taken seriously; e.g., when G. B?HLER in his 'Lexicographic Notes'21 (p. 90) men-
> tions "the three great modern Sanskrit dictionaries, compiled by Europeans", it is clear
> that he puts MW into the same category as PW and pw. The same scholar also discusses
> (ibid., p. 86) a case where MONIER-WILLIAMS indicated his doubt about a translational
> equivalent given in PW and was right in his skepsis. It must also be mentioned that not
> only did MONIER-WILLIAMS get an honorary PhD degree from the University of G?ttin-
> gen, but also that such serious scholars as E. LEUMANN (Strassburg) and C. CAPELLER
> (Jena) did not hesitate to cooperate with him on the second edition of MW.
> 
> Best,
> Dominik Wujastyk
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From veerankp at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 07:46:31 2015
From: veerankp at gmail.com (Veeranarayana Pandurangi)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 13:16:31 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Developing story on alleged plagiarism by Rajiv	Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <1437230282-7420848.54903049.ft6IEbMNn020731@rs143.luxsci.com>
Message-ID: <CAPnSTeifbCJc_=abNbp6_LyreWKr8CFJARN7E91w5sr0+fO0qg@mail.gmail.com>

dear all
it seems indologists are not interested any more in the petition seeking
withdrawal Rajiv's books. This petition by Jesse knutson has attracted only
218 supporters as  I write this piece,

compared to 4053 supporters to the petition not to ban Wendy Doniger's
Books lasy year (
https://www.change.org/p/members-of-both-houses-of-the-indian-parliament-and-the-honorable-law-minister-government-of-india-reconsider-and-revise-sections-153-a-and-295-a-of-the-indian-penal-code-to-protect-freedom-of-expression-in-india
)

and much lower number compared to 9462 supporters to the petition for
non-withdrawal of Rajiv's books (
https://www.change.org/p/publishers-of-rajiv-malhotra-s-books-do-not-yield-to-mafia-pressure-tactics-that-seek-to-compromise-intellectual-freedom
)

Hence I call upon  all to concentrate on discussing the subject dealt by
Rajiv rather than 7 sentences without quotation marks, (see prof.
aklujkar's remark "it is first time in") though I agree it is a simple
mistake to leave these 7 sentences without quotation mark. Even rajiv
admitted it. it will be corrected in next editions.

it does not matter whether he is racist or utter fool. if you see anything
without evidence in his books please concentrate on it. why some of members
are so furious about him? why dont stand for free speech?

I also ask our colleagues to send me scanned copies of his books if anybody
has. so we can glance it.

we stand together for free speech is the conclusion.

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:

> "Cut to 2015, and we now have the Rajiv Malhotra issue. His explanation
> for lifting passages from various publications was that ?Sanskrit language
> has no quotation marks.?
>
> Interestingly, this article too does not address the main ?explanation."
> It also does not mention that Malhotra admitted he could have done a better
> job at citation.
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 18, 2015, at 4:00 PM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Article in yesterday's *The Hindu*:
>
>    - It doesn?t hurt to say sorry
>    <http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/on-owning-up-to-mistakes-in-the-public-sphere/article7434214.ece>
>    / Sruthi Radhakrishnan
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi
Director of Academics
Dean, Faculty of Vedantas
Karnakata Samskrita University,
Pampa Mahakavi Road,
Chamarajpet, Bengaluru.


?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ? ??????
???????????????
?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????? ????????
??????????? (?.??.)

http://www.ksu.ac.in
http://www.ksu.ac.in/en/dr-veeranarayana-n-k-pandurangi/
<https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat


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From hr at ivs.edu  Mon Jul 20 07:56:25 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 09:56:25 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] passion and dispassion
In-Reply-To: <CAEgrCzDq+6v3oU2gdef3rLe60ZuvF=Ah29QQ8Z27UJxt6Cr-xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CDA38A71-8206-4FC7-9D17-8791E5E818AD@ivs.edu>

On Jul 20, 2015, at 8:38 AM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
> 
>   <<But just as the refutation of unreason is a virtue, so too is humble introspection. A thorough, dispassionate analysis of the Malhotra phenomenon would include a scholarly, disapassionate examination of the attitudes and assumptions of Indology toward objects, processes, and events held sacred by lots of people.>>
> 
> Agreed, on some Malhotran points.  
> 
> Yes: need for "humble introspection". But: no need for that on the side of the representatives of the Sanskritic cultural sphere?  

As they say, ?what?s good for the goose, is good for the gander.?


> 
> A "scholarly disapassionate examination of the attitudes and assumptions of" the representatives of the Sanskritic  cultural sphere "toward objects, processes, and events held sacred by lots of people". 
> 
> Open demonstrations of disregard, deep contempt. Gatekeepers, encroachments into the sphere of ideas punished.
> 
> Best, 
> 
> Artur 
> 
> 2015-07-20 6:42 GMT+02:00 Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu <mailto:hr at ivs.edu>>:
>         Mr. Malhotra has been roundly, though not uniformly, rebuked on this conference. We should recall that even history?s greatest villains have been the object of extensive, even dispassionate, historical study. To give one grotesque example, scholars widely link Hitler?s rise to power to economic and social conditions in Germany after WW I. This does not entail a theory of socio-historical determinism that would entirely exonerate Hitler?s supporters, but it was a crucial factor, and it did directly inspire the Marshall Plan after WW 2.
> 
>         Those Indologists not keenly interested in contemporary Hinduism, including the Hindu-science or Hindu-Indology interface, or indeed those Indologists not particularly drawn to meta-epistemology as an often unseen, but always active determinant of Indological views ? those Indologists may be satisfied to excoriate Mr. Malhotra, at times deservedly.
> 
>         But just as the refutation of unreason is a virtue, so too is humble introspection. A thorough, dispassionate analysis of the Malhotra phenomenon would include a scholarly, disapassionate examination of the attitudes and assumptions of Indology toward objects, processes, and events held sacred by lots of people.
> 
>         Lest some misunderstand, I gratefully acknowledge the enormous and invaluable contribution of Indology to our understanding of South Asian religions and cultures. Yet the most impressive enterprises should remain open to self-critical introspection.
> 
> Best,
> Howard
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 



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From klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi  Mon Jul 20 11:12:38 2015
From: klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 14:12:38 +0300
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Speaking_of_plagiarism:_Satya_Prakash_Sarasvati_and_Satyakam_Vidyalankar=E2=80=99s_=E1=B9=9Agveda?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CfmacMxxmBTZO_fuSiA3FxGCioHgeGiCNs7xRRo33RV1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9D022E65-220A-47D9-BCD8-494F41073FE3@helsinki.fi>

Dear colleagues,
I have Zgusta not at hand to check, but it is important to note that the accusations of plagiarism of MW were made against his first edition (1872). The second edition (1899), used by us, was very carefully revised and in this work he had some good assistants. See, beside his introduction, the reviews by Bloomfield /AJPh 21, 1900, 323-32) and Winternitz (WZKM 14, 1900, 353-360).

Some 30 years ago, when checking the various interpretation given to some Vedic ritual terms, I noted that Apte has copied some lemmas directly from the old Calcutta dictionary edited by Wilson.

Best,
Klaus

Klaus Karttunen
South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies
Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures
PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B)
00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418
Fax +358-(0)2941 22094
Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi






> On 20 Jul 2015, at 02:35, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 19 July 2015 at 20:12, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu <mailto:glhart at berkeley.edu>> wrote:
> I remember years ago when I was studying Sanskrit Ingalls mentioned that Monier Williams had apparently copied from Boethlingk-Roth without attribution. He said that Boethlingk was able to adduce entries in Monier Williams that had the same mistakes originally made on the SP Lexicon. Plus ?a change?. George Hart
> 
> ?The relationship of the MW and PW dictionaries was carefully evaluated in the 1988 article,
> 
> Ladislav Zgusta, "Copying in Lexicography. Monier-Williams' Sanskrit Dictionary and Other Cases (Dvaiko?yam)" Lexicographica, 1988, 4, 145-164.
> http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/lexi.1988.4.issue-1/9783110244083.145/9783110244083.145.xml?format=INT <http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/lexi.1988.4.issue-1/9783110244083.145/9783110244083.145.xml?format=INT>
> 
> It's a complex and nuanced relationship, that Zgusta describes very well, developing seven defined categories of textual dependence (A-G).  It's worth reading the whole article, which is careful and illuminating.  Zgusta says, p.161,
> 
> To sum up: MONIER-WILLIAMS is completely independent of PW in respect to the general
> plan of the arrangement of his dictionary, or its macrostructure (category E, p. 157); and
> in respect to his semantics, or the way in which he handles the description of meaning by
> English equivalents (cat. G, p. 159). Yet some alleged cases of copying remain unclear
> (cat. D, p. 156).
> However, there is no doubt that MONIER-WILLIAMS copied some data from PW (cat.
> B, p. 154) although sometimes it is clear that while he copied without checking in
> the original sources, he gave the material thus gained some thought of his own (cat. C, p.
> 155). The data which he acquired in this way are mostly of peripheral importance; one
> can easily imagine that he tried to save time in this unorthodox way. There is. however,
> one block, or set of highly important data which he completely took over, or copied from
> PW, namely the indications of Vedic morphological forms (cat. F, p. 158).
> It can even be shown that MW contains not only facts or data of language from PW,
> but also interpretations conceived by B?HTLINGK and ROTH (cat. A, p. 154).
> There is no defense as far as category A is concerned. As for category F (p. 158),
> it would seem that a more explicit acknowledgement in the preface to MW would be
> necessary, but also sufficient: it is against the cumulative spirit of scientific discovery,
> against the synchronic and diachronic cooperation of scholars, to repeat some already
> well done research in all its minutiae; and also, if there are myriads of bits of information
> thus obtained spread throughout a dictionary, it would be difficult to acknowledge each
> and every single piece. MONIER-WILLIAMS ought to have been more explicit in the pre-
> face; but had he been more open on the subject, this ought to have sufficed.
> The same can be said mutatis mutandis about categories B and C. One simply cannot
> expect a Sanskrit lexicographer working after the publication of PW not to use the wealth
> of data published in it and re-do all the excerption himself. As in the case of the preced-
> ing category, MONIER-WILLIAMS ought to have been more explicit in his preface. In
> addition to this, he ought to have checked all second-hand date in the primary sources to
> eliminate PW's misprints and errors, which he neglected to do. (Although the second
> Ought to' perhaps may have to be reworded as 'should' in this real, non-ideal world of
> ours.)
> Both in the case of categories F, and B and C, MONIER-WILLIAMS' sins are rather those
> of omission than of commission; only category A comprises a sin of commission.
> 
> Zgusta also says, p.160,
> 
> In sum, it is not possible fully to condemn MONIER-WILLIAMS, just as it is not possible
> fully to exonerate him.  ... 
> MONIER-WILLIAMS and his dictionary have
> been taken seriously; e.g., when G. B?HLER in his 'Lexicographic Notes'21 (p. 90) men-
> tions "the three great modern Sanskrit dictionaries, compiled by Europeans", it is clear
> that he puts MW into the same category as PW and pw. The same scholar also discusses
> (ibid., p. 86) a case where MONIER-WILLIAMS indicated his doubt about a translational
> equivalent given in PW and was right in his skepsis. It must also be mentioned that not
> only did MONIER-WILLIAMS get an honorary PhD degree from the University of G?ttin-
> gen, but also that such serious scholars as E. LEUMANN (Strassburg) and C. CAPELLER
> (Jena) did not hesitate to cooperate with him on the second edition of MW.
> 
> Best,
> Dominik Wujastyk
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 20 11:14:36 2015
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 11:14:36 +0000
Subject: Plagiarism in general (not Malhotra)
Message-ID: <1405679900.784868.1437390876276.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

I've created this separate thread todiscuss plagiarism in general, as opposed to a discussion aboutMalhotra specifically. Unfortunately, I feel it necessary to pointout what should be obvious: I'm not defending Malhotra's plagiarism.I'd prefer to leave that discussion at one of the other threads.
The discussion about plagiarism hasbrought to light some important issues. It seems that are differentopinions as to what constitutes plagiarism and how to deal with it.
So the first thing, as always, is todefine terms. I recommend this document:
http://go.turnitin.com/paper/plagiarism-spectrum?Product=Turnitin&Notification_Language=English&Lead_Origin=Website&source=Website%20-%20Download
As the paper notes, the Internet hasmade plagiarism easier and more common, both intentional andunintentional. This is in part because information overload has madeit difficult to keep track of the plethora of sources one can nowgain on a subject.
In addition, the downturn in thepublishing industry has made it more difficult to get the resourcesfor proofreaders. This could cause an impoverishment of new voiceswho don't have the resources available to do the necessary checks.
I think we need to look at plagiarismand how to deal with it in light of two criteria: intent and extent.
1) IntentAs Dominik pointed out, unintentionalplagiarism is still plagiarism, using the example of manslaughter.But that is also why manslaughter is usually not punished as severelyas murder.

If the plagiarism is unintentional,then an apology and a commitment to make a correctionshould be sufficient. It would be better if the apology were notgrudgingly given.

 If theplagiarism it is intentional, then the penalties should be greater.Intentional plagiarism is notthe same as murder, but it might be considered suicide ? at leastprofessionally speaking.
2) ExtentIn dealing with plagiarism, the extentmay also be relevant. If only a few items are found have beenunintentionally plagiarized in a large body of work, maybe thatshould be dealt with differently than when the plagiarism makes up alarge proportion of the work or works of the author.
It seems to me that there is a need,especially in the modern information age, to re-examine ourdefinitions of plagiarism and to create more nuanced responses abouthow to deal with such allegations. 
Best,
Dean


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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 12:04:20 2015
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 14:04:20 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Speaking_of_plagiarism:_Satya_Prakash_Sarasvati_and_Satyakam_Vidyalankar=E2=80=99s_=E1=B9=9Agveda?=
In-Reply-To: <9D022E65-220A-47D9-BCD8-494F41073FE3@helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4+0o-vSHZ5yY95MkT=VP7wBpqsQfqOFdzTOxiv=wj7UGw@mail.gmail.com>

a slight correction: Bloomfield's review is found on pages 323-327.
 It is available for free:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/287725.pdf?acceptTC=true&jpdConfirm=true


Jonathan

On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Klaus Karttunen <
klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
> I have Zgusta not at hand to check, but it is important to note that the
> accusations of plagiarism of MW were made against his first edition (1872).
> The second edition (1899), used by us, was very carefully revised and in
> this work he had some good assistants. See, beside his introduction, the
> reviews by Bloomfield /*AJPh* 21, 1900, 323-32) and Winternitz (*WZKM*
> 14, 1900, 353-360).
>
> Some 30 years ago, when checking the various interpretation given to some
> Vedic ritual terms, I noted that Apte has copied some lemmas directly from
> the old Calcutta dictionary edited by Wilson.
>
> Best,
> Klaus
>
> Klaus Karttunen
> South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies
> Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures
> PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B)
> 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
> Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418
> Fax +358-(0)2941 22094
> Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 20 Jul 2015, at 02:35, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 19 July 2015 at 20:12, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>> I remember years ago when I was studying Sanskrit Ingalls mentioned that
>> Monier Williams had apparently copied from Boethlingk-Roth without
>> attribution. He said that Boethlingk was able to adduce entries in Monier
>> Williams that had the same mistakes originally made on the SP Lexicon. Plus
>> ?a change?. George Hart
>>
>
> ?The relationship of the MW and PW dictionaries was carefully evaluated in
> the 1988 article,
>
> Ladislav Zgusta, "Copying in Lexicography. Monier-Williams' Sanskrit
> Dictionary and Other Cases (Dvaiko?yam)" *Lexicographica*, 1988, 4,
> 145-164.
>
> http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/lexi.1988.4.issue-1/9783110244083.145/9783110244083.145.xml?format=INT
>
> It's a complex and nuanced relationship, that Zgusta describes very well,
> developing seven defined categories of textual dependence (A-G).  It's
> worth reading the whole article, which is careful and illuminating.  Zgusta
> says, p.161,
>
> To sum up: MONIER-WILLIAMS is completely independent of PW in respect to
> the general
> plan of the arrangement of his dictionary, or its macrostructure (category
> E, p. 157); and
> in respect to his semantics, or the way in which he handles the
> description of meaning by
> English equivalents (cat. G, p. 159). Yet some alleged cases of copying
> remain unclear
> (cat. D, p. 156).
> However, there is no doubt that MONIER-WILLIAMS copied some data from PW
> (cat.
> B, p. 154) although sometimes it is clear that while he copied without
> checking in
> the original sources, he gave the material thus gained some thought of his
> own (cat. C, p.
> 155). The data which he acquired in this way are mostly of peripheral
> importance; one
> can easily imagine that he tried to save time in this unorthodox way.
> There is. however,
> one block, or set of highly important data which he completely took over,
> or copied from
> PW, namely the indications of Vedic morphological forms (cat. F, p. 158).
> It can even be shown that MW contains not only facts or data of language
> from PW,
> but also interpretations conceived by B?HTLINGK and ROTH (cat. A, p. 154).
> There is no defense as far as category A is concerned. As for category F
> (p. 158),
> it would seem that a more explicit acknowledgement in the preface to MW
> would be
> necessary, but also sufficient: it is against the cumulative spirit of
> scientific discovery,
> against the synchronic and diachronic cooperation of scholars, to repeat
> some already
> well done research in all its minutiae; and also, if there are myriads of
> bits of information
> thus obtained spread throughout a dictionary, it would be difficult to
> acknowledge each
> and every single piece. MONIER-WILLIAMS ought to have been more explicit
> in the pre-
> face; but had he been more open on the subject, this ought to have
> sufficed.
> The same can be said mutatis mutandis about categories B and C. One simply
> cannot
> expect a Sanskrit lexicographer working after the publication of PW not to
> use the wealth
> of data published in it and re-do all the excerption himself. As in the
> case of the preced-
> ing category, MONIER-WILLIAMS ought to have been more explicit in his
> preface. In
> addition to this, he ought to have checked all second-hand date in the
> primary sources to
> eliminate PW's misprints and errors, which he neglected to do. (Although
> the second
> Ought to' perhaps may have to be reworded as 'should' in this real,
> non-ideal world of
> ours.)
> Both in the case of categories F, and B and C, MONIER-WILLIAMS' sins are
> rather those
> of omission than of commission; only category A comprises a sin of
> commission.
>
> Zgusta also says, p.160,
>
> In sum, it is not possible fully to condemn MONIER-WILLIAMS, just as it is
> not possible
> fully to exonerate him.  ...
> MONIER-WILLIAMS and his dictionary have
> been taken seriously; e.g., when G. B?HLER in his 'Lexicographic Notes'21
> (p. 90) men-
> tions "the three great modern Sanskrit dictionaries, compiled by
> Europeans", it is clear
> that he puts MW into the same category as PW and pw. The same scholar also
> discusses
> (ibid., p. 86) a case where MONIER-WILLIAMS indicated his doubt about a
> translational
> equivalent given in PW and was right in his skepsis. It must also be
> mentioned that not
> only did MONIER-WILLIAMS get an honorary PhD degree from the University of
> G?ttin-
> gen, but also that such serious scholars as E. LEUMANN (Strassburg) and C.
> CAPELLER
> (Jena) did not hesitate to cooperate with him on the second edition of MW.
>
> Best,
> Dominik Wujastyk
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
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> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html


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From jknutson at hawaii.edu  Mon Jul 20 12:15:50 2015
From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 17:45:50 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Speaking_of_plagiarism:_Satya_Prakash_Sarasvati_and_Satyakam_Vidyalankar=E2=80=99s_=E1=B9=9Agveda?=
In-Reply-To: <9D022E65-220A-47D9-BCD8-494F41073FE3@helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <CAAiVBEVSVH+Fk83P=0vCgfxb_g6wk4MhBbqNmOiyVFx5Z7q5kw@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone has a pdf of the article from Lexicographica, I would love to see
it. My university library only seems to have it available from 2009 onwards
electronically.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Klaus Karttunen <
klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
> I have Zgusta not at hand to check, but it is important to note that the
> accusations of plagiarism of MW were made against his first edition (1872).
> The second edition (1899), used by us, was very carefully revised and in
> this work he had some good assistants. See, beside his introduction, the
> reviews by Bloomfield /*AJPh* 21, 1900, 323-32) and Winternitz (*WZKM*
> 14, 1900, 353-360).
>
> Some 30 years ago, when checking the various interpretation given to some
> Vedic ritual terms, I noted that Apte has copied some lemmas directly from
> the old Calcutta dictionary edited by Wilson.
>
> Best,
> Klaus
>
> Klaus Karttunen
> South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies
> Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures
> PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B)
> 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
> Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418
> Fax +358-(0)2941 22094
> Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 20 Jul 2015, at 02:35, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 19 July 2015 at 20:12, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>> I remember years ago when I was studying Sanskrit Ingalls mentioned that
>> Monier Williams had apparently copied from Boethlingk-Roth without
>> attribution. He said that Boethlingk was able to adduce entries in Monier
>> Williams that had the same mistakes originally made on the SP Lexicon. Plus
>> ?a change?. George Hart
>>
>
> ?The relationship of the MW and PW dictionaries was carefully evaluated in
> the 1988 article,
>
> Ladislav Zgusta, "Copying in Lexicography. Monier-Williams' Sanskrit
> Dictionary and Other Cases (Dvaiko?yam)" *Lexicographica*, 1988, 4,
> 145-164.
>
> http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/lexi.1988.4.issue-1/9783110244083.145/9783110244083.145.xml?format=INT
>
> It's a complex and nuanced relationship, that Zgusta describes very well,
> developing seven defined categories of textual dependence (A-G).  It's
> worth reading the whole article, which is careful and illuminating.  Zgusta
> says, p.161,
>
> To sum up: MONIER-WILLIAMS is completely independent of PW in respect to
> the general
> plan of the arrangement of his dictionary, or its macrostructure (category
> E, p. 157); and
> in respect to his semantics, or the way in which he handles the
> description of meaning by
> English equivalents (cat. G, p. 159). Yet some alleged cases of copying
> remain unclear
> (cat. D, p. 156).
> However, there is no doubt that MONIER-WILLIAMS copied some data from PW
> (cat.
> B, p. 154) although sometimes it is clear that while he copied without
> checking in
> the original sources, he gave the material thus gained some thought of his
> own (cat. C, p.
> 155). The data which he acquired in this way are mostly of peripheral
> importance; one
> can easily imagine that he tried to save time in this unorthodox way.
> There is. however,
> one block, or set of highly important data which he completely took over,
> or copied from
> PW, namely the indications of Vedic morphological forms (cat. F, p. 158).
> It can even be shown that MW contains not only facts or data of language
> from PW,
> but also interpretations conceived by B?HTLINGK and ROTH (cat. A, p. 154).
> There is no defense as far as category A is concerned. As for category F
> (p. 158),
> it would seem that a more explicit acknowledgement in the preface to MW
> would be
> necessary, but also sufficient: it is against the cumulative spirit of
> scientific discovery,
> against the synchronic and diachronic cooperation of scholars, to repeat
> some already
> well done research in all its minutiae; and also, if there are myriads of
> bits of information
> thus obtained spread throughout a dictionary, it would be difficult to
> acknowledge each
> and every single piece. MONIER-WILLIAMS ought to have been more explicit
> in the pre-
> face; but had he been more open on the subject, this ought to have
> sufficed.
> The same can be said mutatis mutandis about categories B and C. One simply
> cannot
> expect a Sanskrit lexicographer working after the publication of PW not to
> use the wealth
> of data published in it and re-do all the excerption himself. As in the
> case of the preced-
> ing category, MONIER-WILLIAMS ought to have been more explicit in his
> preface. In
> addition to this, he ought to have checked all second-hand date in the
> primary sources to
> eliminate PW's misprints and errors, which he neglected to do. (Although
> the second
> Ought to' perhaps may have to be reworded as 'should' in this real,
> non-ideal world of
> ours.)
> Both in the case of categories F, and B and C, MONIER-WILLIAMS' sins are
> rather those
> of omission than of commission; only category A comprises a sin of
> commission.
>
> Zgusta also says, p.160,
>
> In sum, it is not possible fully to condemn MONIER-WILLIAMS, just as it is
> not possible
> fully to exonerate him.  ...
> MONIER-WILLIAMS and his dictionary have
> been taken seriously; e.g., when G. B?HLER in his 'Lexicographic Notes'21
> (p. 90) men-
> tions "the three great modern Sanskrit dictionaries, compiled by
> Europeans", it is clear
> that he puts MW into the same category as PW and pw. The same scholar also
> discusses
> (ibid., p. 86) a case where MONIER-WILLIAMS indicated his doubt about a
> translational
> equivalent given in PW and was right in his skepsis. It must also be
> mentioned that not
> only did MONIER-WILLIAMS get an honorary PhD degree from the University of
> G?ttin-
> gen, but also that such serious scholars as E. LEUMANN (Strassburg) and C.
> CAPELLER
> (Jena) did not hesitate to cooperate with him on the second edition of MW.
>
> Best,
> Dominik Wujastyk
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific
Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at M?noa
452A Spalding


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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Mon Jul 20 14:35:53 2015
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 16:35:53 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Plagiarism in general (not Malhotra)
In-Reply-To: <1405679900.784868.1437390876276.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BD6D2DDB-8B0D-4CDA-BAD6-3E718C8C50C6@uni-muenchen.de>

On Jul 20, 2015, at 13:14 , Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think we need to look at plagiarism and how to deal with it in light of two criteria: intent and extent.
> 
> 1) Intent
> As Dominik pointed out, unintentional plagiarism is still plagiarism, using the example of manslaughter. But that is also why manslaughter is usually not punished as severely as murder.

I am not sure whether this parallel is really valid. Manslaughter can occur when the intention is to merely hurt somebody but strikes the other too hard, resulting in the other's death.

What we see in the case of Malhotra is not mere conscious copying, but also tinkering with the precise wording. One cannot do this if one honestly wishes to quote another author. If one believes that the language of a quote is faulty, one adds "[sic]"; if one wants to skip over something, one inserts "[...]". We all know these standard practices.

Therefore, the intention is clear.

> If the plagiarism is unintentional, then an apology and a commitment to make a correction should be sufficient. It would be better if the apology were not grudgingly given.

Dominik has already sent a link to Sruthi Radhakrishnan's comment "It doesn?t hurt to say sorry" (http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/on-owning-up-to-mistakes-in-the-public-sphere/article7434214.ece). Malhotra simply does not apologize but, on the contrary, launches a ridiculous counter-attack.

This means that he was caught and that he knows it but does not have the character to admit that he was caught. (Can anyone give a different explanation? If so, let's hear it.)

> If the plagiarism it is intentional, then the penalties should be greater. Intentional plagiarism is not the same as murder, but it might be considered suicide ? at least professionally speaking.

Yes. If anybody in academia took him seriously before, such persons can only make public fools of themselves if they do so now.

> Best,

Robert Zydenbos




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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 16:15:16 2015
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 10:15:16 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]__Speaking_of_plagiarism:_Hari_Prasad_Shastri's_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a?=
Message-ID: <CAPAZekYdZvTs4V6DwO9E6qX7xv4g7bRJR0_Qw-PUP4aJ-pF2KQ@mail.gmail.com>

This is amazing, Robert. Just last week I was reading about how influential
Hari Prasad Shastri's English translation of the *R?m?ya?a* was. Who would
have thought that an Indian teacher, an accomplished Sanskrit scholar as he
was, would have largely translated from the French translation of a Western
scholar rather than from the original Sanskrit.

Nancy and I take this opportunity to express our utmost appreciation to you
and Sally and your team for your lifelong project of translating the
critical edition of the *R?m?ya?a* into English. The team from the Oriental
Institute, Vadodara (Baroda), working from 1951 to 1975, gave the world the
first critical edition of the Sanskrit *R?m?ya?a*. Your team gave the world
the first reliably accurate English translation of the *R?m?ya?a*. The
value of these two contributions cannot be overestimated.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Robert Goldman <rpg at berkeley.edu> wrote:

> Since the topic has come up, it is illuminating as David and Nancy have
> done, to look beyond the wretched and ignorant writings of Mr. Malhotra to
> examples of work in wide circulation in which the author?s unethical
> reliance on earlier scholarship has not been widely noticed.
>
> The most serious and extensive example we have  encountered in the course
> of our work is Hari Prasad Shastri?s three volume English translation of
> the *V?lm?kir?m?ya?a*, *The Ramayana of Valmiki *(London: Shanti Sadan
> 1959). This work has been very substantially translated directly from
> Alfred Roussel?s 1903 French translation* Le R?m?ya?a de V?lm?ki*,
> (Paris: Librairie des cinq parties du monde. Biblioth?que Orientale, no.
> 8.) as Sally Sutherland Goldman and I have amply documented throughout  the
> annotation of our translations of the epic?s *Sundara*, *Yuddha* and
> *Uttara* (now in press) *k???as*.
>
> As others have noted Sanskrit does  of course have a widely used marker of
> quotations in the form of the particle *iti* and the numerous authors
> with whom we have worked are quite meticulous in citing their sources
> whether they agree or disagree with the quoted authors or texts. They do
> not necessarily cite, as  modern western protocol requires, by chapter and
> verse, generally being content with ascriptions to a text, a body of text
> or an author as in *iti ?ruti?*, *iti p?dme*, *iti bha??at?rth?u *etc.
> But that is the normal scholarly protocol of their intellectual tradition.
>
> Bob Goldman
> Dr. R. P.  Goldman
> Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and
> Southeast Asian Studies
> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540
> The University of California at Berkeley
> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540
> Tel: 510-642-4089
> Fax: 510-642-2409
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 16:38:49 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 18:38:49 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Speaking_of_plagiarism:_Satya_Prakash_Sarasvati_and_Satyakam_Vidyalankar=E2=80=99s_=E1=B9=9Agveda?=
In-Reply-To: <CAAiVBEVSVH+Fk83P=0vCgfxb_g6wk4MhBbqNmOiyVFx5Z7q5kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CdV1WzRzh7JHg=TgAwkd_uJy0TyTqd08Op0a86+gJ2EWg@mail.gmail.com>

cough.
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/5p1ng46plmbdhqz/1988%20Copying%20in%20Lexicography%20-%20Mondier-Williams%20Sanskrit%20Dictionary%20and%20Other%20Cases.pdf?dl=0>

?


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From glhart at berkeley.edu  Mon Jul 20 17:27:29 2015
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 10:27:29 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] regarding Malhotra's plaguerism
In-Reply-To: <55AC81BD.9040403@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <C014D439-D217-4A61-8E79-4E363766F22E@berkeley.edu>

(This is rather far afield of Malhotra, who is not one of my favorite people ? he maligned me in his book ?Breaking India,? little aware that I was treasurer of a Hindu temple for 6 years and have supported Hindu temples in the Bay Area for years. I and my students have been translating Hindu classics with great reverence ever since I became a professor. I think he called me an enemy of Hinduism or something like that. With friends like Malhotra, does Hinduism need enemies?)

The use of iti in Sanskrit is quite fascinating. As is well-known, a parallel construction exists in the Dravidian languages ? various forms of e? (?say?) in Tamil and counterparts in other languages. What makes the Dravidian usage interesting is that the word used like ?iti? occurs in many forms ? adverb (e??u), infinitive (e?a), adjective (e??um), verbal/participial noun (e?patu), participial noun (e?pava? etc.), and perhaps a few others that have not occurred to me. It would seem that the use of direct speech followed by a quotative word (with nothing except intonation, which cannot be indicated by writing, to mark the beginning of the speech) was an areal feature of some or all non-IE South Asian languages 3500 years ago. We don?t know whether Sanskrit borrowed the usage from Dravidian or some other family that is extinct, but it is clear that such syntactical features can enter one language from another when speakers learn a new language and transfer those features into the new language. Another example ? deprecated, obviously ? is the use of v? in spoken Sanskrit for interrogative sentences (?gacchati v? bhav?n ? are you coming?). This is a clear transference of Dravidian -?, interrogative marker (n??ka varr??ka??). This usage also comes into English: "comfortable-?," ?are you comfortable??  

The syntactic parallels between Dravidian and Sanskrit are extensive and include almost exact parallels to api and eva. It is much easier to translate a Sanskrit stanza into Tamil than into English, even though Tamil is not related to Sanskrit and English is. Many writers in Sanskrit have been native Dravidian speakers.  To write good Sanskrit, such people need to learn the morphology, but they already know much of the syntax. Nor do they have much trouble with vocabulary. Even in Tamil, borrowings of Sanskrit words are plentiful (though they are not used much in the formal language).  It?s also worth pointing out that Sanskrit compounds ape almost exactly the syntax of sentences in Dravidian. George Hart
  
> On Jul 19, 2015, at 10:06 PM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann <reimann at berkeley.edu> wrote:
> 
> Dominik, the justification on those grounds would go something like this.
> 
> Malhotra defends "tradition," which is embodied in Sanskrit texts. Therefore, he is not bound by any modern academic conventions because he follows the traditional system, the one expressed in Sanskrit. And if ?Sanskrit does not even have quotation marks in its character set,? why would he, a defender of the "tradition," use them. 
> 
> The use of iti has already been mentioned, so the whole justification is, of course, null and void, even from a 'traditional' point of view.
> 
> Luis
> _____
> 
> 
> On 7/19/2015 9:26 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
>> I entirely fail to understand the defence of plagiarism on the grounds that Sanskrit has no quotation marks.  Malhotra's books are written in English.  
>> 
>> Dominik Wujastyk
>> 
>> ?
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
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From hermantull at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 19:26:07 2015
From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 15:26:07 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Speaking_of_plagiarism:_Satya_Prakash_Sarasvati_and_Satyakam_Vidyalankar=E2=80=99s_=E1=B9=9Agveda?=
In-Reply-To: <9E04406D-EC8C-41EF-ABAD-1565EC6FA6C1@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFdBLNigZaRb7KGG_N8kiZ8cS7yAUV-6U+tm_U68=ipQfw3BPg@mail.gmail.com>

George and others,

I know this discussion was not intended to be a bashing of Monier-Williams
(whatever sins he may have committed, we all owe a vast debt to his work;
I've worn out two dictionaries, and a third was saved only by the fact that
it now exists in a non-physical online form), so it is worth pointing out
that--

1. Monier Williams does acknowledge his debt to Otto B?htlingk and Rudolf
Roth; but his acknowledgement apparently appears in the 1872 edition, which
I have never seen.  The 1899 edition (the one we all use) has at the
beginning of the preface:

"The first edition appeared in the summer of 1872. The extent of its
indebtedness to the great seven-volumed Sansk?it-German Thesaurus compiled
by the two eminent German Sansk?itists, Otto B?htlingk and Rudolf Roth,
with the assistance of many distinguished scholars, such as Professor
A.Weber of Berlin ? then only completed as far as the beginning of the
letter ? v ? was fully acknowledged by me in the Preface."

2. Monier-Williams's claim to originality was based, as he states, on the
*plan* of the work, not the words in it. Words mean what they mean, so
"plagiarism" here is not quite an applicable term. As he states:

"The words and the meanings of the words of a Dictionary can scarcely be
proved by its compilers to belong exclusively to themselves."

3. Much the same can be said of the composition of any Sanskrit grammar
text.  Grammar rules have not changed in the past 2500 years; at best, the
compiler of a Sanskrit grammar merely restates (or re-orders) rules stated
by others. Thus, Macdonell tells us in the preface to his grammar that he
restates Muller's work, albeit in a shorter version.

By the way, Monier-Williams was born in India; there is a a terrific photo
of him by his colleague Lewis Carroll (Charles Dodgeson) on his Wikipedia
page. (Dodgeson also photographed Monier-Williams's daughter Ella with some
frequency.)

As far as the other discussion...I prefer saving my electronic ink for the
many actually meaningful discussions this community of scholars has
engendered over the years.

Herman

Herman Tull
Princeton, NJ


On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 2:12 PM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:

> I remember years ago when I was studying Sanskrit Ingalls mentioned that
> Monier Williams had apparently copied from Boethlingk-Roth without
> attribution. He said that Boethlingk was able to adduce entries in Monier
> Williams that had the same mistakes originally made on the SP Lexicon. Plus
> ?a change?. George Hart
>
> On Jul 19, 2015, at 10:49 AM, David and Nancy Reigle <dnreigle at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> No, I did not intend to imply anything about Malhotra's writings, which I
> have never read. I wanted to call attention to two other cases of
> plagiarism, far more extensive than Malhotra's. Even if the possibility
> that something might be done about them is remote, it may be useful to know
> about them.
>
> I was very disappointed when I saw what T. G. Mainkar had done with the S??khyak?rik?
> and Gau?ap?da?s commentary, copying even omissions and typographical
> errors in Har Dutt Sharma's translation. It seems that all he did was read
> and edit the English, without even consulting the Sanskrit. He improved
> some English words here and there, and deleted all the parentheses that
> Sharma had used to distinguish his own additions from what is in the
> Sanskrit. Yet Sharma's superior translation has fallen into oblivion, while
> Mainkar's was again reprinted in 2004. I have scanned and posted Sharma's
> book in three parts here:
> http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/
>
> Similarly, I was very disappointed to see that Satya Prakash Sarasvati
> and Satyakam Vidyalankar had largely only copied Wilson's translation of
> the ?gveda, substituting God for the Vedic gods. The notes they added are
> helpful, and they reproduced Aufrecht's romanized text, and also a
> devanagari text. But I expected their translation to follow the Arya Samaj
> line of interpretation throughout, so that we could see how it differs from S?ya?a?s
> interpretation. What unsuspecting readers got instead, other than God for
> the gods, was in fact S?ya?a?s interpretation, by way of the silent
> appropriation of Wilson's translation.
>
> My own work is textual, and these two cases of plagiarism are more
> important to me than is Malhotra's case. I wanted to use the opportunity
> that this discussion of plagiarism provided to call attention to these two
> cases. Sorry that I did not distinguish them more clearly from Malhotra's
> case.
>
> Best regards,
>
> David Reigle
> Colorado, U.S.A.
>
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Two wrongs don't make a right.  (If that's what you meant.)
>> ?
>> ?
>> Dominik Wujastyk?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> committee)
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> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 

*Herman TullPrinceton, NJ *


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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 19:36:19 2015
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 15:36:19 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] regarding Malhotra's plaguerism
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zuRXa-htGNexgsfo_pkjZt_9uv3MO9AN+KHQQGgq=-+3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zuZDBB2wOa2vkQHU9_nQ2wU-T25_KOG5eC_NWsW2=UKqA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear George,

I remember discussing iti with you 30 or more years ago.  Under your
guidance I was reading Emeneau, Kuiper, Hans Hock, et al., back then,
regarding the 'genesis of a linguistic area' in South Asia.  As far as I
can remember, the discussion of the influence of the Dravidian quotative
construction on the early Indo-Aryan quotative construction was quite
clear.  In early Avestan the quotative particle uiti preceded the
quotation, whereas already in the RV iti mostly followed the quotation, as
in Dravidian.  I remember that in Hittite a quotative particle often [or
perhaps always?] preceded the quotation.  I can't remember the evidence
from Homeric Greek and I can't take the time right now to look it up.  Can
a list member tell us about this without much effort?  Perhaps Hans Hock?

In any case, many years later I have argued that iti in the RV had another,
non-quotative function.  It meant "yes" both in initial position and in
final position, as in RV 10.119.

I am happy to see that in their recently published RV translation Jamison
and Brereton have embraced my interpretation.

I hope that this is of use.

George Thompson





On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 3:10 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 1:27 PM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>> (This is rather far afield of Malhotra, who is not one of my favorite
>> people ? he maligned me in his book ?Breaking India,? little aware that I
>> was treasurer of a Hindu temple for 6 years and have supported Hindu
>> temples in the Bay Area for years. I and my students have been translating
>> Hindu classics with great reverence ever since I became a professor. I
>> think he called me an enemy of Hinduism or something like that. With
>> friends like Malhotra, does Hinduism need enemies?)
>>
>> The use of *iti* in Sanskrit is quite fascinating. As is well-known, a
>> parallel construction exists in the Dravidian languages ? various forms of
>> e? (?say?) in Tamil and counterparts in other languages. What makes the
>> Dravidian usage interesting is that the word used like ?iti? occurs in many
>> forms ? adverb (e??u), infinitive (e?a), adjective (e??um),
>> verbal/participial noun (e?patu), participial noun (e?pava? etc.), and
>> perhaps a few others that have not occurred to me. It would seem that the
>> use of direct speech followed by a quotative word (with nothing except
>> intonation, which cannot be indicated by writing, to mark the beginning of
>> the speech) was an areal feature of some or all non-IE South Asian
>> languages 3500 years ago. We don?t know whether Sanskrit borrowed the usage
>> from Dravidian or some other family that is extinct, but it is clear that
>> such syntactical features can enter one language from another when speakers
>> learn a new language and transfer those features into the new language.
>> Another example ? deprecated, obviously ? is the use of v? in spoken
>> Sanskrit for interrogative sentences (?gacchati v? bhav?n ? are you
>> coming?). This is a clear transference of Dravidian -?, interrogative
>> marker (n??ka varr??ka??). This usage also comes into English:
>> "comfortable-?," ?are you comfortable??
>>
>> The syntactic parallels between Dravidian and Sanskrit are extensive and
>> include almost exact parallels to api and eva. It is much easier to
>> translate a Sanskrit stanza into Tamil than into English, even though Tamil
>> is not related to Sanskrit and English is. Many writers in Sanskrit have
>> been native Dravidian speakers.  To write good Sanskrit, such people need
>> to learn the morphology, but they already know much of the syntax. Nor do
>> they have much trouble with vocabulary. Even in Tamil, borrowings of
>> Sanskrit words are plentiful (though they are not used much in the formal
>> language).  It?s also worth pointing out that Sanskrit compounds ape almost
>> exactly the syntax of sentences in Dravidian. George Hart
>>
>>
>> On Jul 19, 2015, at 10:06 PM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann <reimann at berkeley.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Dominik, the justification on those grounds would go something like this.
>>
>> Malhotra defends "tradition," which is embodied in Sanskrit texts.
>> Therefore, he is not bound by any modern academic conventions because he
>> follows the traditional system, the one expressed in Sanskrit. And if ?Sanskrit
>> does not even have quotation marks in its character set,? why would he,
>> a defender of the "tradition," use them.
>>
>> The use of *iti* has already been mentioned, so the whole justification
>> is, of course, *null and void*, even from a 'traditional' point of view.
>>
>> Luis
>> _____
>>
>>
>> On 7/19/2015 9:26 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
>>
>>  I entirely fail to understand the defence of plagiarism on the grounds
>> that Sanskrit has no quotation marks.  Malhotra's books are written in
>> English.
>>
>>  Dominik Wujastyk
>>
>>  ?
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>


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From glhart at berkeley.edu  Mon Jul 20 20:15:22 2015
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 13:15:22 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query: Date of the Bhagavatam
Message-ID: <4F57D5EA-2C73-42C2-8F01-7982773CC528@berkeley.edu>

I would be most grateful if someone could post (or email me) the latest ideas about the date of the Bhagavatam. Working mostly with Tamil, I?m not in the loop about such matters and I need to say something in the introduction to my translation of the Akan????u. (Of course, I will acknowledge any help). Thanks. George Hart 


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From hr at ivs.edu  Mon Jul 20 20:25:59 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 22:25:59 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query: Date of the Bhagavatam
In-Reply-To: <4F57D5EA-2C73-42C2-8F01-7982773CC528@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <EB59D84C-C0D8-4ADC-B0F1-012CCE9CA6BD@ivs.edu>

Kindly send it to me also. Thanks!

> On Jul 20, 2015, at 10:15 PM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:
> 
> I would be most grateful if someone could post (or email me) the latest ideas about the date of the Bhagavatam. Working mostly with Tamil, I?m not in the loop about such matters and I need to say something in the introduction to my translation of the Akan????u. (Of course, I will acknowledge any help). Thanks. George Hart 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 21 03:17:03 2015
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 15 08:47:03 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query: Date of the Bhagavatam
In-Reply-To: <4F57D5EA-2C73-42C2-8F01-7982773CC528@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qKDXh00Du5Ki=n87a4B=a-yohigiO8wUFDThWYX6Ok7Cg@mail.gmail.com>

The Bhaagavata was for long regarded as belonging to around the 12th
century. later an MS of the 12th century was found. The Bh. then should be
earlier by a few centuries. The exact date is difficult to determine.
Best
DB

On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 1:45 AM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:

> I would be most grateful if someone could post (or email me) the latest
> ideas about the date of the Bhagavatam. Working mostly with Tamil, I?m not
> in the loop about such matters and I need to say something in the
> introduction to my translation of the *Akan????u*. (Of course, I will
> acknowledge any help). Thanks. George Hart
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Tue Jul 21 03:19:46 2015
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 21:19:46 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query: Date of the Bhagavatam
In-Reply-To: <4F57D5EA-2C73-42C2-8F01-7982773CC528@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekb_Yir=UH2o+_RJ3Tpbwr+bZc4PLKrAVn8a=CvbAgLfiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Since no one has yet replied to this, perhaps there is not much new on this
question. As we all know, the continuing upab??ha?a, expansion or
supplementation, of the pur??as makes them almost impossible to date
accurately. Since their older parts may be separated from their later parts
by centuries, are we seeking the date of their latest redaction?

In the critical edition, *The Bh**?gavata* (ed. H. G. Shastri, Bharati K.
Shelat, K. K. Shastree, B.J. Institute of Learning and Research, Ahmedabad,
1996-1999), an "Epilogue" volume was published in 2002 (vol. 4, part 3),
which has just over two pages on "Time and Composition of the BGP" (pp.
15-17). K. K. Shastree there concludes (p. 16): "It means that the time of
composing the BGP is not earlier than the latter half of the 7th cent.,
A.D. and not later than the first half of the 8th cent., A.D."

However, Ganesh Vasudeo Tagare in the Introduction to vol. 1 of his English
translation of *The Bh**?gavata-**pur??a* (1976, p. xxxvi) points out
that a *Pur??a
**Bh?gavata* is named in the Jaina text, *Nand**?-s**?tra*. Since this
Jaina text can be dated around 500 C.E., some version of the *Bh**?gavata-*
*pur??a* existed then. This is in his section, "The Date and Authorship of
the Bh.P.," pp. xxxiv-xlii. He begins this section by listing thirteen
proposed dates for the *Bh**?gavata-**pur??a*, ranging from 1200 B.C. to
1300 A.D., and their sources. Included here is the date proposed by
pur??a specialist R. C. Hazra, author of the 1940 classic work, *Studies in
the Pur**?nic Records on Hindu Rites and Customs*, as 600 A.D.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 2:15 PM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:

> I would be most grateful if someone could post (or email me) the latest
> ideas about the date of the Bhagavatam. Working mostly with Tamil, I?m not
> in the loop about such matters and I need to say something in the
> introduction to my translation of the *Akan????u*. (Of course, I will
> acknowledge any help). Thanks. George Hart
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From dominic.goodall at gmail.com  Tue Jul 21 04:24:56 2015
From: dominic.goodall at gmail.com (Dominic Goodall)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 15 09:54:56 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query: Date of the Bhagavatam
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekb_Yir=UH2o+_RJ3Tpbwr+bZc4PLKrAVn8a=CvbAgLfiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0961E9B4-9C1B-460B-AD33-1A892F263E52@gmail.com>


Friedhelm Hardy?s very significant observations in Viraha-Bhakti on the indebtedness of the Bh?gavatapur??a to the Tamil poetry of the ??v?rs should surely be mentioned here !

As I have pointed out in annotation to a translation of Bh?gavata X, chapter 31, the second-syllable rhyming used in passages of heightened emotion is further evidence of this Tamilian influence. The style of the work, as many have observed, really stands out from amongst other run-of-the-mill Pur??as.

And one should also consider Charlotte Schmid?s observations based on South Indian narrative sculpture about K???a : ?Aventures divines de K???a : la l?l? et les traditions narratives des temples c??a? in Arts Asiatiques 2002.

In view of all this, such early dates as C7th and C8th seem implausible and such late ones as 1200 seem very unlikely.

Dominic Goodall




> On 21-Jul-2015, at 8:49 am, David and Nancy Reigle <dnreigle at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Since no one has yet replied to this, perhaps there is not much new on this question. As we all know, the continuing upab??ha?a, expansion or supplementation, of the pur??as makes them almost impossible to date accurately. Since their older parts may be separated from their later parts by centuries, are we seeking the date of their latest redaction?  
> 
> In the critical edition, The Bh?gavata (ed. H. G. Shastri, Bharati K. Shelat, K. K. Shastree, B.J. Institute of Learning and Research, Ahmedabad, 1996-1999), an "Epilogue" volume was published in 2002 (vol. 4, part 3), which has just over two pages on "Time and Composition of the BGP" (pp. 15-17). K. K. Shastree there concludes (p. 16): "It means that the time of composing the BGP is not earlier than the latter half of the 7th cent., A.D. and not later than the first half of the 8th cent., A.D."
> 
> However, Ganesh Vasudeo Tagare in the Introduction to vol. 1 of his English translation of The Bh?gavata-pur??a (1976, p. xxxvi) points out that a Pur??a Bh?gavata is named in the Jaina text, Nand?-s?tra. Since this Jaina text can be dated around 500 C.E., some version of the Bh?gavata-pur??a existed then. This is in his section, "The Date and Authorship of the Bh.P.," pp. xxxiv-xlii. He begins this section by listing thirteen proposed dates for the Bh?gavata-pur??a, ranging from 1200 B.C. to 1300 A.D., and their sources. Included here is the date proposed by 
> pur??a specialist R. C. Hazra, author of the 1940 classic work, Studies in the Pur?nic Records on Hindu Rites and Customs, as 600 A.D. 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> David Reigle
> Colorado, U.S.A.
> 
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 2:15 PM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu <mailto:glhart at berkeley.edu>> wrote:
> I would be most grateful if someone could post (or email me) the latest ideas about the date of the Bhagavatam. Working mostly with Tamil, I?m not in the loop about such matters and I need to say something in the introduction to my translation of the Akan????u. (Of course, I will acknowledge any help). Thanks. George Hart 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

Dominic Goodall
?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient,
19, rue Dumas,
Pondicherry 605001
Tel. +91 413 2334539




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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Jul 21 04:53:46 2015
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 15 23:53:46 -0500
Subject: use of 'sarga' in referring to many individuals
Message-ID: <F97CCF0C-6FCD-4EB9-958E-A1D767F1D6DA@aol.com>

A Tamil inscription refers to 15 persons of cava??a (savar?a) carukkam (sarga) of Karuv?r. How do the Sanskritists here understand the use of ?sarga? in this inscription? Are there similar uses in Sanskrit texts?

Thanks in advance

Regards,
Palaniappan




From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 21 05:34:34 2015
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 15 05:34:34 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf request (review by J.W. de Jong)
Message-ID: <DUB114-W8000B9646ABD12D2302B45A5840@phx.gbl>

Dear colleagues,

Can anyone help me obtain the following?

de Jong, Jan Willem
1984
 ?A New History of Tantric Literature in India [review of Matsunaga 
Y?kei, Mikky? ky?ten seiritsushi-ron (Kyoto, 1980)]?, Indo Koten Kenky? 
[Acta Indologica] 6, 91?113.

Thanks, and best wishes,

Arlo Griffiths
?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient 		 	   		  


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From pankajaindia at gmail.com  Tue Jul 21 12:18:41 2015
From: pankajaindia at gmail.com (Pankaj Jain)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 15 07:18:41 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Dr Shashi Tharoor at Oxford Union - Britain Does	Owe Reparations
In-Reply-To: <CAASxWBGz8pn6Ba73exkn+2+sLzV6Am7m4cw2A3WZs1XNCa0vuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAASxWBH3sXEoFjeDV88nfyyPQg4_bistm9-TRwfPQh4C067yZg@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7CW7S0zxv4&sns=fb

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Pankaj Jain (???? ???) pankaj.jain at unt.edu
Assistant Professor
Dept of Anthropology <http://anthropology.unt.edu/facultybio-jain.php>
940-369-6980
Dept of Philosophy and Religion
<http://philosophy.unt.edu/people/faculty/pankaj-jain> 940-369-8126
Director, EcoDharma Project <http://pluralism.org/affiliates/jain/>
The University of North Texas

<https://twitter.com/pankajaindia>
<https://plus.google.com/101180738285046848862>
<http://www.facebook.com/dharmaandecology>  <http://www.youtube.com/pj2017>
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/bharatiya> [image:
http://www.amazon.com/Pankaj-Jain/e/B004UHPYKA/]
<http://www.amazon.com/Pankaj-Jain/e/B004UHPYKA/>
<http://unt.academia.edu/PankajJain/>[image: h, source icon]
<http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pankaj-jain-phd>
<http://www.speakingtree.in/public/pankaj.jain>


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From John.Brockington at btinternet.com  Tue Jul 21 13:43:09 2015
From: John.Brockington at btinternet.com (John Brockington)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 15 14:43:09 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] our visit to Sri Lanka
Message-ID: <55AE4C6D.1040106@btinternet.com>

Dear Mr Metcalfe,

Thank you for your letter of 15th July welcoming us back home.  We will 
put the questionnaire into the post in the next day or two but we would 
like also to make some further comments on our time in Sri Lanka for 
which there is not sufficient space on the form.

As you will remember from our initial enquiry and the details then 
provided on our itinerary, the sole purpose of a first full day in 
Colombo was to visit the National Museum and we were therefore very 
disappointed to discover on arrival that it was closed for repairs and 
essentially had a wasted day.  We feel strongly that your local agent, 
Pan Lanka Travels & Tours, should have been aware of this and warned us 
of the fact; if this had been done early enough, we might have had 
opportunity to make different arrangements.  Also, two mattresses on a 
single base (which therefore could not be separated at all) which was 
provided at Vil Uyana by the ?380 upgrade to a Forest Dwelling scarcely 
qualify in our opinion as twin beds.  By contrast, the provision of an 
extra single bed at the Tintagel Hotel was perfectly adequate and the 
rooms at Ulagalla and Galle Face Hotel had twin beds as standard.

The location of the Tintagel Hotel would have been ideal for visiting 
the National Museum but its rooms are rather a case of faded glory (with 
limited drawer space, only a single usable electrical socket in our room 
and no lift) and the Galle Face Hotel even more obviously trades on its 
reputation (being overstaffed with under-motivated personnel in the 
middle ranks) and its excellent sea-front location.  Both Vil Uyana and 
Ulagalla were undoubtedly luxurious (and we appreciated the private 
plunge pool at each) but they were obviously chosen for that reason by, 
we presume, Pan Lanka.  Despite the address given for it, Ulagalla is in 
fact at Tirappane and so some considerable distance south of both 
Anuradhapura and Mihintale ? unnecessarily so, since there are clearly 
perfectly adequate hotels in Anuradhapura itself (such as the one that 
our guide took us to twice for lunch).  However, the luxury for guests 
at Vil Uyana and Ulagalla is not matched by the totally inadequate 
standard of accommodation provided for their guest's drivers, as we 
discovered by some questioning of our guide about the whole concept of 
such establishments in that context; our guide, incidentally, was 
excellent and sufficiently knowledgeable to appreciate that we did 
ourselves know something about what we wanted to see and even to be keen 
to learn from us on some points, as well as looking after us very 
considerately.  Could some remark on this accommodation issue be passed 
on to the two hotels without identifying the source (we would not want 
our guide to suffer because of information that we elicited from him 
rather than his volunteering it)?

The questionnaire asks, inter alia, for an assessment of the destination 
guide notes.  May we point out that Sri Lanka is not on GMT plus 6 hours 
but, like India, differs by an odd half hour?  Also in our itinerary the 
Sri Lanka Airlines baggage allowance was given as 20 kg, whereas to our 
relief it is in fact 30 kg (and clearly advertised as such on the 
website), and their online checkin opens 24, not 48, hours before the 
flight.

The above is intended as some candid and therefore, we hope, useful 
feedback.  We would like to conclude by assuring you that we greatly 
enjoyed our time in Sri Lanka overall and came away with many favourable 
impressions and happy memories.

Yours

John and Mary Brockington

  
Professor and Mrs J.L. Brockington
113 Rutten Lane
Yarnton
Kidlington 0X5 1LT
tel: 01865 849438



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From John.Brockington at btinternet.com  Tue Jul 21 13:49:53 2015
From: John.Brockington at btinternet.com (John Brockington)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 15 14:49:53 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] apologies
Message-ID: <55AE4E01.1020807@btinternet.com>

My profound apologies to the list for the inadvertent copying of a 
personal letter to the list.  Please ignore it.

John

  
Professor J.L. Brockington
113 Rutten Lane
Yarnton
Kidlington 0X5 1LT
tel: 01865 849438



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From edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu  Tue Jul 21 14:57:42 2015
From: edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu (edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 15 10:57:42 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query: Date of the Bhagavatam
In-Reply-To: <CABEB9qKDXh00Du5Ki=n87a4B=a-yohigiO8wUFDThWYX6Ok7Cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b5188a57621470bd5d653ec145d495d5.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>



Hi George,

See an article I wrote in the Journal of Vaishnava Studies 11:1 Fall
(2002): 51-80, (which also summarized all the dating attempts known to me
at the time ).  As for Hardy's thesis of a Southern provenance and date
based on the Alvars, if I am not mistaken Vasudha Narayanam has critiqued
that, so perhaps you can get a reference to her review.

Best wishes,  EB



> The Bhaagavata was for long regarded as belonging to around the 12th
> century. later an MS of the 12th century was found. The Bh. then should be
> earlier by a few centuries. The exact date is difficult to determine.
> Best
> DB
>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 1:45 AM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>> I would be most grateful if someone could post (or email me) the latest
>> ideas about the date of the Bhagavatam. Working mostly with Tamil, I???m
>> not
>> in the loop about such matters and I need to say something in the
>> introduction to my translation of the *Akan??????????u*. (Of course, I
>> will
>> acknowledge any help). Thanks. George Hart
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)






From hr at ivs.edu  Tue Jul 21 15:25:18 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 15 17:25:18 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query: Date of the Bhagavatam
In-Reply-To: <b5188a57621470bd5d653ec145d495d5.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <684388D4-8B6F-4EB5-8D11-712A806F3442@ivs.edu>

Thank you. Does anyone have a reference or link to Narayanam?s text?

> On Jul 21, 2015, at 4:57 PM, edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi George,
> 
> See an article I wrote in the Journal of Vaishnava Studies 11:1 Fall
> (2002): 51-80, (which also summarized all the dating attempts known to me
> at the time ).  As for Hardy's thesis of a Southern provenance and date
> based on the Alvars, if I am not mistaken Vasudha Narayanam has critiqued
> that, so perhaps you can get a reference to her review.
> 
> Best wishes,  EB
> 
> 
> 
>> The Bhaagavata was for long regarded as belonging to around the 12th
>> century. later an MS of the 12th century was found. The Bh. then should be
>> earlier by a few centuries. The exact date is difficult to determine.
>> Best
>> DB
>> 
>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 1:45 AM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> I would be most grateful if someone could post (or email me) the latest
>>> ideas about the date of the Bhagavatam. Working mostly with Tamil, I???m
>>> not
>>> in the loop about such matters and I need to say something in the
>>> introduction to my translation of the *Akan??????????u*. (Of course, I
>>> will
>>> acknowledge any help). Thanks. George Hart
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>>> unsubscribe)
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 






From wujastyk at gmail.com  Tue Jul 21 16:00:31 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 15 18:00:31 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] The legal right to publish OA
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcbqDReBES=7XmoTMmt36HkGB3-PwO+1UbrMDMuJRDhCg@mail.gmail.com>

In Holland and Germany, it seems, academics have the legal right to
reproduce their own writings in an Open Access form after a "reasonable
time" (Holland) or "12 months" (Germany).  That is, if the writings are
funded - even partly - by public money.

   -
   https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/copyright/2015/07/02/going-dutch-netherlands-law-on-green-open-access/


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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Tue Jul 21 18:14:13 2015
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 15 20:14:13 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] The legal right to publish OA
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CcbqDReBES=7XmoTMmt36HkGB3-PwO+1UbrMDMuJRDhCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4+xaZnsahbL6Et1mW32W8vnh3cPhPs3MW3Rb4tEnkOFYA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not so sure about this, but it may be that I'm simply out of the
(relevant) loop. At least, I am not aware of being told anything about this
(and I'm a professor at a Dutch university). On the other hand, and Dominik
is certainly among the best informed, see:
http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/1160-Netherlands-Boycotting-Elsevier-To-Sustain-Bloat.html



On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 6:00 PM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
wrote:

> In Holland and Germany, it seems, academics have the legal right to
> reproduce their own writings in an Open Access form after a "reasonable
> time" (Holland) or "12 months" (Germany).  That is, if the writings are
> funded - even partly - by public money.
>
>    -
>    https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/copyright/2015/07/02/going-dutch-netherlands-law-on-green-open-access/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html


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From c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk  Tue Jul 21 18:37:59 2015
From: c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk (Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 15 18:37:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] The legal right to publish OA
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4+xaZnsahbL6Et1mW32W8vnh3cPhPs3MW3Rb4tEnkOFYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8E30E5E5-F0FD-4068-9371-7A566E5952C8@lancaster.ac.uk>

In the UK, research funded by the Research Councils /have/ to be open access for all papers (not yet books). Universities are having to start budgeting for 'gold access' - open access at time of publication. As for academics' right to publish open, at present most publishers allow a 'pre-publication' version to be posted, but 'green access', open after a set period, is their preferred option. To some extent, the government insistence on open access and publishers' economic model are heading for collision; hence the universities having to think of paying for gold access. The problem is that limited funds makes it impossible for universities to pay for non-research council funded papers that academics want to put on open access but for which publishers have stringent restrictions on open access.

Ram

iPhone

On 21 Jul 2015, at 19:16, Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com<mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com>> wrote:

I'm not so sure about this, but it may be that I'm simply out of the (relevant) loop. At least, I am not aware of being told anything about this (and I'm a professor at a Dutch university). On the other hand, and Dominik is certainly among the best informed, see: http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/1160-Netherlands-Boycotting-Elsevier-To-Sustain-Bloat.html



On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 6:00 PM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com<mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>> wrote:
In Holland and Germany, it seems, academics have the legal right to reproduce their own writings in an Open Access form after a "reasonable time" (Holland) or "12 months" (Germany).  That is, if the writings are funded - even partly - by public money.

  *   https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/copyright/2015/07/02/going-dutch-netherlands-law-on-green-open-access/

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



--
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Wed Jul 22 02:03:54 2015
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 15 21:03:54 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query: Date of the Bhagavatam
In-Reply-To: <b5188a57621470bd5d653ec145d495d5.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <29A65FDA-3B5D-41BA-BC2D-F8BF0FF9A14A@aol.com>

In my opinion, Edwin Bryant?s paper has a fundamental flaw. 

Edwin argues for an upper limit of 8th century for BhP based on the sequence of panels in the Vaiku??apperum?? temple in K??cipuram based on an earlier study of the temple by Dennis Hudson. When the same fact is found in a sculpture and a literary text, there is no justification to assume that the literary text preceded the sculpture as Edwin has done. It could be the other way around. Why couldn?t the author of the literary text be inspired by the sculpture? Or both being inspired by local traditions?

A clear example is discussed by Vasudha Narayanan in her recent paper, ?Who is the strong-armed monkey who churns the ocean of milk?? published in UDAYA: Journal of Khmer Studies, Volume 11 (2013), pp. 3-28. In this paper, we see that the motif of V?li churning the ocean of milk first appears in a panel in Pattadakal before it is mentioned in any literary text.

As a result, I find that the upper limit of 8th century for BhP is not justified. This means that Edwin?s objections to Hardy?s views on BhP?s date are not justified either.

By the way, Dennis Hudson also says that the story of ??abha and Bharata entered BhP from ?dipur??a most likely in the ninth century.

Regards,
Palaniappan

 





> On Jul 21, 2015, at 9:57 AM, edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi George,
> 
> See an article I wrote in the Journal of Vaishnava Studies 11:1 Fall
> (2002): 51-80, (which also summarized all the dating attempts known to me
> at the time ).  As for Hardy's thesis of a Southern provenance and date
> based on the Alvars, if I am not mistaken Vasudha Narayanam has critiqued
> that, so perhaps you can get a reference to her review.
> 
> Best wishes,  EB
> 
> 
> 
>> The Bhaagavata was for long regarded as belonging to around the 12th
>> century. later an MS of the 12th century was found. The Bh. then should be
>> earlier by a few centuries. The exact date is difficult to determine.
>> Best
>> DB
>> 
>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 1:45 AM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> I would be most grateful if someone could post (or email me) the latest
>>> ideas about the date of the Bhagavatam. Working mostly with Tamil, I???m
>>> not
>>> in the loop about such matters and I need to say something in the
>>> introduction to my translation of the *Akan??????????u*. (Of course, I
>>> will
>>> acknowledge any help). Thanks. George Hart
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>>> unsubscribe)
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)






From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Wed Jul 22 15:08:55 2015
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 15 17:08:55 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <1508549179.258567605.1437512076925.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <1290492800.260372047.1437577735962.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>


Dear listfolk, 
? 
? 
After having provided the link to what Malhotra has to say to Andrew Nicholson's attack on him (linked even earlier), here is the link to what he is doing about? it: http://swarajyamag.com/culture/nicholsons-untruths/ ? Briefly, in agreement with the publisher, he is throwing Nicholson entirely out of his book, replacing him by Indian authors writing on the same unifying-Hinduism efforts. After all, he had only quoted a Westerner because that is more prestigious and unsuspect, but there is a lot of better knowledge about Hindu tradition among Hindus themselves. In the spirit of decolonization, he is taking this opportunity to highlight Indian scholars in the "decolonized" second version of Indra's Net. The broader context of which the present controversy forms part, is given here:? http://www.firstpost.com/living/decolonising-indology-rajiv-malhotra-wont-follow-rules-set-west-2356234.html 
? 
Established Western scholars who only talk to one another, might not realize it, but as I notice in non-mainstream media, Malhotra is turning the tables on his attackers, and is coming out of this affair with increased prestige. 
? 
While some of you have provided links to the attacks on him, it has fallen to me to provide links to his responses. Given your apparent interest in the affair, this must have been a useful service. Amid the holy indignation about plagiarism by a man who has amply referred to Nicholson and quoted him many times, thus annulling the very rationale a plagiarist would have, I find it more anomalous that so many academics?consider it perfectly normal to hear (and act on) only one half of the story. As Hegel said, "das Wahre ist das Ganze" (truth is the whole). But no, the fact that I have made his voice audible has served as proof among several scholars that I must be in agreement with him, or even in his pay. The latter allegation, and conspiracy theory, sure to be a hit among fishwives, betrays an interesting mentality: the assumption that defending someone's right to be heard implies agreeing with him. By that principle, even Hitler and Stalin were champions of free speech -- at least?the free speech of those who agreed with them. It ought to be obvious to scholars that hearing a position and agreeing with that position are two different things. Well yeah, while the affair loses its steam, it becomes time for me to formulate my own thoughts about it, tomorrow or so. 
? 
Fortunately, we can conclude on a positive note.?We should take heart from the complaint uttered here?that, while so many people?signed a petition opposing the pulping of Wendy Doniger's book, so few?have now signed the petition demanding the pulping of Malhotra's book. At that time, I wrote that there may be many things wrong with Doniger's book (indeed, a great many), but that banning it?is not the answer. It seems that today, a healthy majority here thinks that to the few things wrong with Malhotra's book, banning is still not the right answer. 
? 
? 
? 
? 
? 
Kind regards, 
? 
? 
Koenraad Elst????? 


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From audrey.truschke at gmail.com  Wed Jul 22 15:42:21 2015
From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 15 08:42:21 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <1290492800.260372047.1437577735962.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <CAKq175qFAhN4F6vKJoLi4205hSMhKeU1pXOjBXRPw7BUtQVzkg@mail.gmail.com>

Godwin's Law: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/godwins-law

Audrey Truschke
Mellon Postdoctoral Fellow
Department of Religious Studies
Stanford University
e- <audrey.truschke at gmail.com>mail <audrey.truschke at gmail.com> | website
<http://www.stanford.edu/~truschke/>

On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:08 AM, <koenraad.elst at telenet.be> wrote:

>
> Dear listfolk,
>
>
> After having provided the link to what Malhotra has to say to Andrew
> Nicholson's attack on him (linked even earlier), here is the link to what
> he is doing about  it: http://swarajyamag.com/culture/nicholsons-untruths/
> Briefly, in agreement with the publisher, he is throwing Nicholson entirely
> out of his book, replacing him by Indian authors writing on the same
> unifying-Hinduism efforts. After all, he had only quoted a Westerner
> because that is more prestigious and unsuspect, but there is a lot of
> better knowledge about Hindu tradition among Hindus themselves. In the
> spirit of decolonization, he is taking this opportunity to highlight Indian
> scholars in the "decolonized" second version of Indra's Net. The broader
> context of which the present controversy forms part, is given here:
> http://www.firstpost.com/living/decolonising-indology-rajiv-malhotra-wont-follow-rules-set-west-2356234.html
>
>  Established Western scholars who only talk to one another, might not
> realize it, but as I notice in non-mainstream media, Malhotra is turning
> the tables on his attackers, and is coming out of this affair with
> increased prestige.
>
> While some of you have provided links to the attacks on him, it has fallen
> to me to provide links to his responses. Given your apparent interest in
> the affair, this must have been a useful service. Amid the holy indignation
> about plagiarism by a man who has amply referred to Nicholson and quoted
> him many times, thus annulling the very rationale a plagiarist would have,
> I find it more anomalous that so many academics consider it perfectly
> normal to hear (and act on) only one half of the story. As Hegel said, "das
> Wahre ist das Ganze" (truth is the whole). But no, the fact that I have
> made his voice audible has served as proof among several scholars that I
> must be in agreement with him, or even in his pay. The latter allegation,
> and conspiracy theory, sure to be a hit among fishwives, betrays an
> interesting mentality: the assumption that defending someone's right to be
> heard implies agreeing with him. By that principle, even Hitler and Stalin
> were champions of free speech -- at least the free speech of those who
> agreed with them. It ought to be obvious to scholars that hearing a
> position and agreeing with that position are two different things. Well
> yeah, while the affair loses its steam, it becomes time for me to formulate
> my own thoughts about it, tomorrow or so.
>
> Fortunately, we can conclude on a positive note. We should take heart from
> the complaint uttered here that, while so many people signed a petition
> opposing the pulping of Wendy Doniger's book, so few have now signed the
> petition demanding the pulping of Malhotra's book. At that time, I wrote
> that there may be many things wrong with Doniger's book (indeed, a great
> many), but that banning it is not the answer. It seems that today, a
> healthy majority here thinks that to the few things wrong with Malhotra's
> book, banning is still not the right answer.
>
>
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Koenraad Elst
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From veerankp at gmail.com  Wed Jul 22 16:10:17 2015
From: veerankp at gmail.com (Veeranarayana Pandurangi)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 15 21:40:17 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <CAKq175qFAhN4F6vKJoLi4205hSMhKeU1pXOjBXRPw7BUtQVzkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPnSTeiEkCxrgxtYDknq7po0BNCcJ3Z=XjgfQSZ2hvPbEYfGWQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all
Today's Hindu has first of its kind opinion, asking for restraint.
m.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/rajiv-malhotra-plagiarism-issue-and-hindutva/article7448583.ece
On Jul 22, 2015 9:13 PM, "Audrey Truschke" <audrey.truschke at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Godwin's Law: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/godwins-law
>
> Audrey Truschke
> Mellon Postdoctoral Fellow
> Department of Religious Studies
> Stanford University
> e- <audrey.truschke at gmail.com>mail <audrey.truschke at gmail.com> | website
> <http://www.stanford.edu/~truschke/>
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:08 AM, <koenraad.elst at telenet.be> wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear listfolk,
>>
>>
>> After having provided the link to what Malhotra has to say to Andrew
>> Nicholson's attack on him (linked even earlier), here is the link to what
>> he is doing about  it:
>> http://swarajyamag.com/culture/nicholsons-untruths/  Briefly, in
>> agreement with the publisher, he is throwing Nicholson entirely out of his
>> book, replacing him by Indian authors writing on the same unifying-Hinduism
>> efforts. After all, he had only quoted a Westerner because that is more
>> prestigious and unsuspect, but there is a lot of better knowledge about
>> Hindu tradition among Hindus themselves. In the spirit of decolonization,
>> he is taking this opportunity to highlight Indian scholars in the
>> "decolonized" second version of Indra's Net. The broader context of which
>> the present controversy forms part, is given here:
>> http://www.firstpost.com/living/decolonising-indology-rajiv-malhotra-wont-follow-rules-set-west-2356234.html
>>
>>  Established Western scholars who only talk to one another, might not
>> realize it, but as I notice in non-mainstream media, Malhotra is turning
>> the tables on his attackers, and is coming out of this affair with
>> increased prestige.
>>
>> While some of you have provided links to the attacks on him, it has
>> fallen to me to provide links to his responses. Given your apparent
>> interest in the affair, this must have been a useful service. Amid the holy
>> indignation about plagiarism by a man who has amply referred to Nicholson
>> and quoted him many times, thus annulling the very rationale a plagiarist
>> would have, I find it more anomalous that so many academics consider it
>> perfectly normal to hear (and act on) only one half of the story. As Hegel
>> said, "das Wahre ist das Ganze" (truth is the whole). But no, the fact that
>> I have made his voice audible has served as proof among several scholars
>> that I must be in agreement with him, or even in his pay. The latter
>> allegation, and conspiracy theory, sure to be a hit among fishwives,
>> betrays an interesting mentality: the assumption that defending someone's
>> right to be heard implies agreeing with him. By that principle, even Hitler
>> and Stalin were champions of free speech -- at least the free speech of
>> those who agreed with them. It ought to be obvious to scholars that hearing
>> a position and agreeing with that position are two different things. Well
>> yeah, while the affair loses its steam, it becomes time for me to formulate
>> my own thoughts about it, tomorrow or so.
>>
>> Fortunately, we can conclude on a positive note. We should take heart
>> from the complaint uttered here that, while so many people signed a
>> petition opposing the pulping of Wendy Doniger's book, so few have now
>> signed the petition demanding the pulping of Malhotra's book. At that time,
>> I wrote that there may be many things wrong with Doniger's book (indeed, a
>> great many), but that banning it is not the answer. It seems that today, a
>> healthy majority here thinks that to the few things wrong with Malhotra's
>> book, banning is still not the right answer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>>
>> Koenraad Elst
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From hhhock at illinois.edu  Wed Jul 22 16:52:42 2015
From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 15 16:52:42 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <CAPnSTeiEkCxrgxtYDknq7po0BNCcJ3Z=XjgfQSZ2hvPbEYfGWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9E57EDC3-FBC9-4E7A-97E1-22EBA6D21F4D@illinois.edu>

Dear Colleague,

Thanks for sharing this

Hans Henrich Hock

On 22 Jul 2015, at 11:10, Veeranarayana Pandurangi <veerankp at gmail.com<mailto:veerankp at gmail.com>> wrote:


Dear all
Today's Hindu has first of its kind opinion, asking for restraint.
m.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/rajiv-malhotra-plagiarism-issue-and-hindutva/article7448583.ece<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__m.thehindu.com_opinion_lead_rajiv-2Dmalhotra-2Dplagiarism-2Dissue-2Dand-2Dhindutva_article7448583.ece&d=AwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=yKOAMu7Fm_W5kv9CXfjbmb6aWTY6BVQCYZ5TKkB486Q&m=pY3JFCJSj6LXmawVfwvMh4ci0LyABrTGGd4YwKrRozk&s=XScZjCCr8Hq4o7FVasKIH45TpFVzfQsT7bWyQfSSvPE&e=>

On Jul 22, 2015 9:13 PM, "Audrey Truschke" <audrey.truschke at gmail.com<mailto:audrey.truschke at gmail.com>> wrote:
Godwin's Law: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/godwins-law<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__knowyourmeme.com_memes_godwins-2Dlaw&d=AwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=yKOAMu7Fm_W5kv9CXfjbmb6aWTY6BVQCYZ5TKkB486Q&m=pY3JFCJSj6LXmawVfwvMh4ci0LyABrTGGd4YwKrRozk&s=IqXIjIC0qbNPn4qG5vHP1Kidjap1hbb87STtEQHsc7I&e=>

Audrey Truschke
Mellon Postdoctoral Fellow
Department of Religious Studies
Stanford University
e-<mailto:audrey.truschke at gmail.com>mail<mailto:audrey.truschke at gmail.com> | website<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.stanford.edu_-7Etruschke_&d=AwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=yKOAMu7Fm_W5kv9CXfjbmb6aWTY6BVQCYZ5TKkB486Q&m=pY3JFCJSj6LXmawVfwvMh4ci0LyABrTGGd4YwKrRozk&s=6zK-JcwnYEjt7VeM284ZhOiWvhxKF1s0OsEBABU0pNQ&e=>

On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:08 AM, <koenraad.elst at telenet.be<mailto:koenraad.elst at telenet.be>> wrote:

Dear listfolk,


After having provided the link to what Malhotra has to say to Andrew Nicholson's attack on him (linked even earlier), here is the link to what he is doing about  it: http://swarajyamag.com/culture/nicholsons-untruths/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__swarajyamag.com_culture_nicholsons-2Duntruths_&d=AwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=yKOAMu7Fm_W5kv9CXfjbmb6aWTY6BVQCYZ5TKkB486Q&m=pY3JFCJSj6LXmawVfwvMh4ci0LyABrTGGd4YwKrRozk&s=h9uz6R0r35AeyymnVBWoKpHNqJ-8vrMtp4a5ojnWKOI&e=>  Briefly, in agreement with the publisher, he is throwing Nicholson entirely out of his book, replacing him by Indian authors writing on the same unifying-Hinduism efforts. After all, he had only quoted a Westerner because that is more prestigious and unsuspect, but there is a lot of better knowledge about Hindu tradition among Hindus themselves. In the spirit of decolonization, he is taking this opportunity to highlight Indian scholars in the "decolonized" second version of Indra's Net. The broader context of which the present controversy forms part, is given here: http://www.firstpost.com/living/decolonising-indology-rajiv-malhotra-wont-follow-rules-set-west-2356234.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.firstpost.com_living_decolonising-2Dindology-2Drajiv-2Dmalhotra-2Dwont-2Dfollow-2Drules-2Dset-2Dwest-2D2356234.html&d=AwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=yKOAMu7Fm_W5kv9CXfjbmb6aWTY6BVQCYZ5TKkB486Q&m=pY3JFCJSj6LXmawVfwvMh4ci0LyABrTGGd4YwKrRozk&s=8LCPlAr24-0uunLO2ieMOHxFjQkxJUOkAHwVaprbIV8&e=>

Established Western scholars who only talk to one another, might not realize it, but as I notice in non-mainstream media, Malhotra is turning the tables on his attackers, and is coming out of this affair with increased prestige.

While some of you have provided links to the attacks on him, it has fallen to me to provide links to his responses. Given your apparent interest in the affair, this must have been a useful service. Amid the holy indignation about plagiarism by a man who has amply referred to Nicholson and quoted him many times, thus annulling the very rationale a plagiarist would have, I find it more anomalous that so many academics consider it perfectly normal to hear (and act on) only one half of the story. As Hegel said, "das Wahre ist das Ganze" (truth is the whole). But no, the fact that I have made his voice audible has served as proof among several scholars that I must be in agreement with him, or even in his pay. The latter allegation, and conspiracy theory, sure to be a hit among fishwives, betrays an interesting mentality: the assumption that defending someone's right to be heard implies agreeing with him. By that principle, even Hitler and Stalin were champions of free speech -- at least the free speech of those who agreed with them. It ought to be obvious to scholars that hearing a position and agreeing with that position are two different things. Well yeah, while the affair loses its steam, it becomes time for me to formulate my own thoughts about it, tomorrow or so.

Fortunately, we can conclude on a positive note. We should take heart from the complaint uttered here that, while so many people signed a petition opposing the pulping of Wendy Doniger's book, so few have now signed the petition demanding the pulping of Malhotra's book. At that time, I wrote that there may be many things wrong with Doniger's book (indeed, a great many), but that banning it is not the answer. It seems that today, a healthy majority here thinks that to the few things wrong with Malhotra's book, banning is still not the right answer.





Kind regards,


Koenraad Elst

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From jknutson at hawaii.edu  Wed Jul 22 19:56:06 2015
From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 01:26:06 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <1290492800.260372047.1437577735962.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <CAAiVBEWiNSw-9ruqqe12nUZTyU2rf3h6Tm7vZS+33f4nxW19EQ@mail.gmail.com>

No one has asked for a ban. The demand has been for a public
acknowledgement, apology, and withdrawal of his plagiarized books from the
market. He would be welcome to reissue corrected versions, if either his
publishers or readers were keen on that. This is very distinct from calling
for a ban. Malhotra is a wealthy and influential man who has both stolen
from and disrespected a talented young scholar (known chiefly for the
pioneering work on Indian Philosophy Malhotra stole from). There is a
massive wealth and power differential between these two figures. Malhotra's
actions are very Indian ruling class, i.e. Lumpenbourgoisie, acting as if
laws don't apply to him esp. in his interactions with lesser beings.

Comparing the number of signatures in the Doniger case vs. the  Andrew
Nicholson case is not helpful. Again Andrew is a talented younger scholar,
known chiefly for his pioneering work. Wendy Doniger is an institution unto
herself, a very senior scholar, obviously slightly more famous and
connected than Andrew.  224 signatures is not a low number. It shows that
more than two hundred people want to see Malhotra exposed for his lack of
intellectual integrity, recently materialized in the vulgarest possible
way. This is not pettiness. Malhotra made a serious violation, and he
should have to answer for it.

Silence would only condone.  Here is a link to the petition again for
others who may not have seen it:

https://www.change.org/p/harper-collins-india-in-view-of-the-widespread-plagiarism-found-in-rajiv-malhotra-s-book-indra-s-net-published-by-harper-collins-india-we-call-on-the-publisher-to-make-a-formal-public-apology-and-to-withdraw-the-book-from-the-market?recruiter=5167386&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=des-lg-no_src-custom_msg&fb_ref=Default




On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:38 PM, <koenraad.elst at telenet.be> wrote:

>
> Dear listfolk,
>
>
> After having provided the link to what Malhotra has to say to Andrew
> Nicholson's attack on him (linked even earlier), here is the link to what
> he is doing about  it: http://swarajyamag.com/culture/nicholsons-untruths/
> Briefly, in agreement with the publisher, he is throwing Nicholson entirely
> out of his book, replacing him by Indian authors writing on the same
> unifying-Hinduism efforts. After all, he had only quoted a Westerner
> because that is more prestigious and unsuspect, but there is a lot of
> better knowledge about Hindu tradition among Hindus themselves. In the
> spirit of decolonization, he is taking this opportunity to highlight Indian
> scholars in the "decolonized" second version of Indra's Net. The broader
> context of which the present controversy forms part, is given here:
> http://www.firstpost.com/living/decolonising-indology-rajiv-malhotra-wont-follow-rules-set-west-2356234.html
>
>  Established Western scholars who only talk to one another, might not
> realize it, but as I notice in non-mainstream media, Malhotra is turning
> the tables on his attackers, and is coming out of this affair with
> increased prestige.
>
> While some of you have provided links to the attacks on him, it has fallen
> to me to provide links to his responses. Given your apparent interest in
> the affair, this must have been a useful service. Amid the holy indignation
> about plagiarism by a man who has amply referred to Nicholson and quoted
> him many times, thus annulling the very rationale a plagiarist would have,
> I find it more anomalous that so many academics consider it perfectly
> normal to hear (and act on) only one half of the story. As Hegel said, "das
> Wahre ist das Ganze" (truth is the whole). But no, the fact that I have
> made his voice audible has served as proof among several scholars that I
> must be in agreement with him, or even in his pay. The latter allegation,
> and conspiracy theory, sure to be a hit among fishwives, betrays an
> interesting mentality: the assumption that defending someone's right to be
> heard implies agreeing with him. By that principle, even Hitler and Stalin
> were champions of free speech -- at least the free speech of those who
> agreed with them. It ought to be obvious to scholars that hearing a
> position and agreeing with that position are two different things. Well
> yeah, while the affair loses its steam, it becomes time for me to formulate
> my own thoughts about it, tomorrow or so.
>
> Fortunately, we can conclude on a positive note. We should take heart from
> the complaint uttered here that, while so many people signed a petition
> opposing the pulping of Wendy Doniger's book, so few have now signed the
> petition demanding the pulping of Malhotra's book. At that time, I wrote
> that there may be many things wrong with Doniger's book (indeed, a great
> many), but that banning it is not the answer. It seems that today, a
> healthy majority here thinks that to the few things wrong with Malhotra's
> book, banning is still not the right answer.
>
>
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Koenraad Elst
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific
Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at M?noa
452A Spalding


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From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Wed Jul 22 21:06:04 2015
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 15 23:06:04 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <CAAiVBEWiNSw-9ruqqe12nUZTyU2rf3h6Tm7vZS+33f4nxW19EQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1195119946.260994917.1437599164315.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>

Dear listfolk, 

? 
>No one has asked for a ban. The demand has been for a public acknowledgement, apology, and withdrawal of his plagiarized books from the market.< 
? 
? 
That is exactly what Dina Nath Batra's supporters said and still say. Among Malhotra's fan base too, they are fairly well represented, so I have pointed out to them that their anti-free-speech position back then is now coming back to haunt them, and that it makes their present petition "for freedom of speech" sound hollow. So in response?they insist that the Doniger controversy was "not a free speech issue", that "free speech does not mean the right to insult" and that there was "no ban", only an agreement with the publisher for "withdrawing" the book. Laughably transparent in their case, and in this case too. 
? 
"His plagiarized books"? His published work now amounts to a few thousand pages, and in these, only a handful of sentences have been found to be plagiarized. To be sure, that should not have happened, but the ample reference to Nicholson precludes any plagiarist's attempt to "steal" the honour from Nicholson. Malhotra was just a bit thoughtless/lazy when he was developing a position, based on many Indian and a few Western writers that had already been formulated by Nicholson. Of course he now brings out a corrected version of the offending book, and that should be enough. 
? 
It is nonetheless quite a sight to see so many (well, not that many) scholars get so worked up about a formal fault in a book?which they never cared to acknowledge contentswise. Malhotra's work contains some big and entirely original ideas (the U-turn, invading the Sacred, the importance of Purva Paksha etc., in case you ever heard of those) which are pertinent to Indology and which professionals of this field ought to have dealt with. Still you manage to ignore his ideas, but when an allegation against his person is uttered, then suddenly you mobilize and express yourselves about his person in rather less than academic terms. 
? 
So, some egg may have landed on Malhotra's face, but the scholarly community has not earned any glory from this affair either. 
? 
? 
Kind regards, 
? 
Koenraad Elst? 
? 
? 
? 
? 
? 


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From rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk  Thu Jul 23 08:18:29 2015
From: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk (Rohana Seneviratne)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 08:18:29 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Tracing_a_verse_in_Kalha=E1=B9=87a's_R=C4=81jatara=E1=B9=85gin=C4=AB?=
Message-ID: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B172DA6@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>

Dear All,

I will be very much thankful if you could kindly help me locate the following verse in Kalha?a's R?jatara?gin?, which describes the ten classes of Brahmins. Many secondary works cite it as appearing in the R?jatara?gin? but does not give the exact reference.

?kar???ak?? ca taila?g? dr?vi?? mah?r???rak?? gurjar?? ceti pancaiva dr?vi?? vindhyadak?i?e | s?rasvat?? k?nyakubj? gau?? utkalamaithil?? pa?cagau?? iti khy?t? vindhyasyottarav?sina?.?

[The five Dr?vi?a classes (Pa?ca Dr?vi?as) living to the south of the Vindhy? (mountain range) are Kar???akas (in Karnataka), Taila?gas (in Andhra), Dr?vi?as (in Tamilnadu and Kerala), those in Mah?r???ra and those in Gurjaras (in Gujarat). S?rasvatas (in Punjab, Kashmir & Sindh), K?nyakubjas (in Uttar Pradesh), Gau?as (in Kurukshetra and Rajasthan), Utkalas (in Orissa), and Maithil?s (in Bihar) living to the north of the Vindhya are known as the five Gau?a classes (Pa?ca Gau?as.)].

Thank you very much in advance.

Best Wishes,
Rohana
------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 08:25:34 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 10:25:34 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <1290492800.260372047.1437577735962.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cc_bipBZpUdcamTuNXhQkYSoWno8u-v7AP1uAURNft2eg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Prof. Elst,

I wondered, as I began reading your post, whether there were quotation
marks missing from the sentence beginning, "After all, he had only quoted a
Westerner...."  Were you meaning to quote Malhotra, I asked myself, or were
you speaking in your own voice?    As I read on, I realized that you are
speaking in your own voice.  When I reached your second paragraph,
"Established Western scholars who only talk to one another...",  it became
obvious to me that you are willing to speak judgementally and dismissively
of a whole profession on the basis of a criterion that has something to do
with geography, rather than intrinsic merit or careful, engaged and
informed scholarship.  It is also possible to read your statement as a
specific insult to the other members of the INDOLOGY list, that you
consider them "western scholars who only talk to one another."  As you
probably know, insulting members of this list, from within the list, is not
a behaviour that is tolerated by the managing committee of the INDOLOGY
forum.

I personally do not believe there is an east-west divide in intellectual
ability or viewpoint.  I do not believe in "The West" as a category of
thought that has anything useful to offer, and certainly not as a method of
categorization that has any intellectual reality or merit. It has been my
observation through many decades of engagement in academic life that there
is good and bad scholarship to be found in all parts of the world and at
all times in history.  Wouldn't it be lovely if it scholarly excellence
were so easy to establish!  If scholars could be judged as good or bad
because of being "western," or "Jewish," or "Hindu" or "Black," "White,"
"female," or any other regional, racial or gender category.  But it is not
so.  Whatever colour we are, whatever part of the world we live in, we all
have to work very hard to understand difficult ideas, and to make
judgements that demonstrate integrity and knowledge.

And this hard work involves much careful study, much discussion with
friends and colleagues, the exposure of one's ideas to teachers, peer
reviewers, and at conferences.  Intellectual work consists of composition,
exposition, and debate, said Sa-Skya Pandita in the thirteenth century.
This is what it means to be a worthwhile academic.  It is not a matter of
winning or losing, of being more insulting than the next person.  It is not
a political contest.  It is a matter of developing more subtlety, deeper
insight, and a finer sensibility towards truth.  Even someone whose ideas
are shown to be wrong is a "winner," since we all strive for truth.  Most
important of all, intellectual life is not a matter of defending oneself.
Good academics are very interested in ideas and knowledge; they are not
much interested in personality and personal conflict, or in prestige or
public perception.

You present yourself as having performed the lonely task of providing the
members of this list with links to Malhotra's responses.  But you err in
thinking that the subset of members of this list who are interested in the
accusations of plagiarism against Malhotra would not be following the
debate in the media, just as you are.  This list is not the be-all and
end-all of indological debate.  It is a forum where just some specialist
questions are asked and answered.  You are not personally called upon to
promote a particular point of view in a debate that does not concern you,
for the supposed good of others.  You do not have the right or the
responsibility to set the agenda for what others should be thinking about.
The members of this list have quite as much experience as you in reading
public media and in making up their own minds about what they think.

You, apparently Malhotra, and others have made at least two important
category errors in your responses to this matter.  First, at the heart of
this discussion, it is not Malhotra that is the main topic.  It is the
plagiarism in his writings that is the issue.  There's a difference.
Malhotra has responded with mighty indignation as if he personally has been
attacked, as if he is in a titanic struggle between The Indian Tradition
and The West, and pointing out his plagiarism is a sly attack on India or
Hinduism.  This is theatrical nonsense.  Malhotra seeks to redefine the
terms of the discussion and place himself at the centre of things, perhaps
because his goals are political not academic.  He reduces the matter from
an discussion about academic ethics to a cheap bar-room brawl between
himself and Nicholson.  The reality is, there are questions hanging over
his academic writing, that appears by the criteria of the Princeton
guidelines to contain plagiarized passages.

Second, it is not a war, a battle or a titanic inter-cultural struggle.  We
would all increase our understanding of the issue if we avoided military
metaphors.  They don't help; they rarely help.  The second category error
is to see this matter of plagiarism as a war, a contest or an east-west
struggle.  It is what it is, no more, no less.  Professional groups develop
practices that help them: climbers use ropes, sky-divers use parachutes.
The academic profession has evolved behaviours that have been shown by
centuries of experience to help in the search for right knowledge.
Plagiarism does not help.  It appears that Malhotra has committed
plagiarism, according to the criteria accepted by the profession (the
Princeton criteria, for example).  What next?  The author may do nothing,
or he may correct his books, or he may try to prove that he has not
plagiarized.  Everything else is meaningless bluster.

Sincerely
Dominik Wujastyk


On 22 July 2015 at 17:08, <koenraad.elst at telenet.be> wrote:

>
> Dear listfolk,
>
>
> After having provided the link to what Malhotra has to say to Andrew
> Nicholson's attack on him (linked even earlier), here is the link to what
> he is doing about  it: http://swarajyamag.com/culture/nicholsons-untruths/
> Briefly, in agreement with the publisher, he is throwing Nicholson entirely
> out of his book, replacing him by Indian authors writing on the same
> unifying-Hinduism efforts. After all, he had only quoted a Westerner
> because that is more prestigious and unsuspect, but there is a lot of
> better knowledge about Hindu tradition among Hindus themselves. In the
> spirit of decolonization, he is taking this opportunity to highlight Indian
> scholars in the "decolonized" second version of Indra's Net. The broader
> context of which the present controversy forms part, is given here:
> http://www.firstpost.com/living/decolonising-indology-rajiv-malhotra-wont-follow-rules-set-west-2356234.html
>
>  Established Western scholars who only talk to one another, might not
> realize it, but as I notice in non-mainstream media, Malhotra is turning
> the tables on his attackers, and is coming out of this affair with
> increased prestige.
>
> While some of you have provided links to the attacks on him, it has fallen
> to me to provide links to his responses. Given your apparent interest in
> the affair, this must have been a useful service. Amid the holy indignation
> about plagiarism by a man who has amply referred to Nicholson and quoted
> him many times, thus annulling the very rationale a plagiarist would have,
> I find it more anomalous that so many academics consider it perfectly
> normal to hear (and act on) only one half of the story. As Hegel said, "das
> Wahre ist das Ganze" (truth is the whole). But no, the fact that I have
> made his voice audible has served as proof among several scholars that I
> must be in agreement with him, or even in his pay. The latter allegation,
> and conspiracy theory, sure to be a hit among fishwives, betrays an
> interesting mentality: the assumption that defending someone's right to be
> heard implies agreeing with him. By that principle, even Hitler and Stalin
> were champions of free speech -- at least the free speech of those who
> agreed with them. It ought to be obvious to scholars that hearing a
> position and agreeing with that position are two different things. Well
> yeah, while the affair loses its steam, it becomes time for me to formulate
> my own thoughts about it, tomorrow or so.
>
> Fortunately, we can conclude on a positive note. We should take heart from
> the complaint uttered here that, while so many people signed a petition
> opposing the pulping of Wendy Doniger's book, so few have now signed the
> petition demanding the pulping of Malhotra's book. At that time, I wrote
> that there may be many things wrong with Doniger's book (indeed, a great
> many), but that banning it is not the answer. It seems that today, a
> healthy majority here thinks that to the few things wrong with Malhotra's
> book, banning is still not the right answer.
>
>
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Koenraad Elst
>
>


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From slaje at kabelmail.de  Thu Jul 23 08:37:42 2015
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 10:37:42 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Tracing_a_verse_in_Kalha=E1=B9=87a's_R=C4=81jatara=E1=B9=85gin=C4=AB?=
In-Reply-To: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B172DA6@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nUNYpKxUPW5mHE83SCa=SVoutJvoRdwANPztQfXa9f47w@mail.gmail.com>

The source of this enumeration is definitely not Kalha?a's R?jatara?gi??.
The dignified kavi he was would never have expressed himself in such a dry,
non-poetical style.

Kind regards,
WS


-----------------------------
Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
D-99425 Weimar
Deutschland

Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor
studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum
non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam,
sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus
humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat.
Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII.

2015-07-23 10:18 GMT+02:00 Rohana Seneviratne <
rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk>:

>  Dear All,
>
>  I will be very much thankful if you could kindly help me locate the
> following verse in Kalha?a's R?jatara?gin?, which describes the ten classes
> of Brahmins. Many secondary works cite it as appearing in the R?jatara?gin?
> but does not give the exact reference.
>
>  ?kar???ak?? ca taila?g? dr?vi?? mah?r???rak?? gurjar?? ceti pancaiva
> dr?vi?? vindhyadak?i?e | s?rasvat?? k?nyakubj? gau?? utkalamaithil??
> pa?cagau?? iti khy?t? vindhyasyottarav?sina?.?
>
>  [The five Dr?vi?a classes (Pa?ca Dr?vi?as) living to the south of the
> Vindhy? (mountain range) are Kar???akas (in Karnataka), Taila?gas (in
> Andhra), Dr?vi?as (in Tamilnadu and Kerala), those in Mah?r???ra and those
> in Gurjaras (in Gujarat). S?rasvatas (in Punjab, Kashmir & Sindh),
> K?nyakubjas (in Uttar Pradesh), Gau?as (in Kurukshetra and Rajasthan),
> Utkalas (in Orissa), and Maithil?s (in Bihar) living to the north of the
> Vindhya are known as the five Gau?a classes (Pa?ca Gau?as.)].
>
>  Thank you very much in advance.
>
>   Best Wishes,
> Rohana
> ------------------------------------------------
> Rohana Seneviratne
> DPhil Student in Sanskrit
> The Oriental Institute
> Faculty of Oriental Studies
> University of Oxford
> Pusey Lane, Oxford
> OX1 2LE
> United Kingdom
>
> Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
> Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From hr at ivs.edu  Thu Jul 23 08:54:34 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 10:54:34 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cc_bipBZpUdcamTuNXhQkYSoWno8u-v7AP1uAURNft2eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48CCFEE1-B259-4EB2-A62A-3C670A153DA5@ivs.edu>

I appreciate much of what Dominik says here. I also really appreciate Shiv Visvanathan?s balanced view of the problem, posted by Professor Pandurangi.

m.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/rajiv-malhotra-plagiarism-issue-and-hindutva/article7448583.ece <http://m.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/rajiv-malhotra-plagiarism-issue-and-hindutva/article7448583.ece>




> On Jul 23, 2015, at 10:25 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Prof. Elst,
> 
> I wondered, as I began reading your post, whether there were quotation marks missing from the sentence beginning, "After all, he had only quoted a Westerner...."  Were you meaning to quote Malhotra, I asked myself, or were you speaking in your own voice?    As I read on, I realized that you are speaking in your own voice.  When I reached your second paragraph, "Established Western scholars who only talk to one another...",  it became obvious to me that you are willing to speak judgementally and dismissively of a whole profession on the basis of a criterion that has something to do with geography, rather than intrinsic merit or careful, engaged and informed scholarship.  It is also possible to read your statement as a specific insult to the other members of the INDOLOGY list, that you consider them "western scholars who only talk to one another."  As you probably know, insulting members of this list, from within the list, is not a behaviour that is tolerated by the managing committee of the INDOLOGY forum.  
>  
> I personally do not believe there is an east-west divide in intellectual ability or viewpoint.  I do not believe in "The West" as a category of thought that has anything useful to offer, and certainly not as a method of categorization that has any intellectual reality or merit. It has been my observation through many decades of engagement in academic life that there is good and bad scholarship to be found in all parts of the world and at all times in history.  Wouldn't it be lovely if it scholarly excellence were so easy to establish!  If scholars could be judged as good or bad because of being "western," or "Jewish," or "Hindu" or "Black," "White," "female," or any other regional, racial or gender category.  But it is not so.  Whatever colour we are, whatever part of the world we live in, we all have to work very hard to understand difficult ideas, and to make judgements that demonstrate integrity and knowledge.  
> 
> And this hard work involves much careful study, much discussion with friends and colleagues, the exposure of one's ideas to teachers, peer reviewers, and at conferences.  Intellectual work consists of composition, exposition, and debate, said Sa-Skya Pandita in the thirteenth century.  This is what it means to be a worthwhile academic.  It is not a matter of winning or losing, of being more insulting than the next person.  It is not a political contest.  It is a matter of developing more subtlety, deeper insight, and a finer sensibility towards truth.  Even someone whose ideas are shown to be wrong is a "winner," since we all strive for truth.  Most important of all, intellectual life is not a matter of defending oneself.  Good academics are very interested in ideas and knowledge; they are not much interested in personality and personal conflict, or in prestige or public perception.  
> 
> You present yourself as having performed the lonely task of providing the members of this list with links to Malhotra's responses.  But you err in thinking that the subset of members of this list who are interested in the accusations of plagiarism against Malhotra would not be following the debate in the media, just as you are.  This list is not the be-all and end-all of indological debate.  It is a forum where just some specialist questions are asked and answered.  You are not personally called upon to promote a particular point of view in a debate that does not concern you, for the supposed good of others.  You do not have the right or the responsibility to set the agenda for what others should be thinking about.  The members of this list have quite as much experience as you in reading public media and in making up their own minds about what they think.  
> 
> You, apparently Malhotra, and others have made at least two important category errors in your responses to this matter.  First, at the heart of this discussion, it is not Malhotra that is the main topic.  It is the plagiarism in his writings that is the issue.  There's a difference.  Malhotra has responded with mighty indignation as if he personally has been attacked, as if he is in a titanic struggle between The Indian Tradition and The West, and pointing out his plagiarism is a sly attack on India or Hinduism.  This is theatrical nonsense.  Malhotra seeks to redefine the terms of the discussion and place himself at the centre of things, perhaps because his goals are political not academic.  He reduces the matter from an discussion about academic ethics to a cheap bar-room brawl between himself and Nicholson.  The reality is, there are questions hanging over his academic writing, that appears by the criteria of the Princeton guidelines to contain plagiarized passages.  
> 
> Second, it is not a war, a battle or a titanic inter-cultural struggle.  We would all increase our understanding of the issue if we avoided military metaphors.  They don't help; they rarely help.  The second category error is to see this matter of plagiarism as a war, a contest or an east-west struggle.  It is what it is, no more, no less.  Professional groups develop practices that help them: climbers use ropes, sky-divers use parachutes.  The academic profession has evolved behaviours that have been shown by centuries of experience to help in the search for right knowledge.  Plagiarism does not help.  It appears that Malhotra has committed plagiarism, according to the criteria accepted by the profession (the Princeton criteria, for example).  What next?  The author may do nothing, or he may correct his books, or he may try to prove that he has not plagiarized.  Everything else is meaningless bluster.
> 
> Sincerely
> Dominik Wujastyk
> 
> 
> On 22 July 2015 at 17:08, <koenraad.elst at telenet.be <mailto:koenraad.elst at telenet.be>> wrote:
> 
> Dear listfolk,
>  
>  
> After having provided the link to what Malhotra has to say to Andrew Nicholson's attack on him (linked even earlier), here is the link to what he is doing about  it: http://swarajyamag.com/culture/nicholsons-untruths/ <http://swarajyamag.com/culture/nicholsons-untruths/>  Briefly, in agreement with the publisher, he is throwing Nicholson entirely out of his book, replacing him by Indian authors writing on the same unifying-Hinduism efforts. After all, he had only quoted a Westerner because that is more prestigious and unsuspect, but there is a lot of better knowledge about Hindu tradition among Hindus themselves. In the spirit of decolonization, he is taking this opportunity to highlight Indian scholars in the "decolonized" second version of Indra's Net. The broader context of which the present controversy forms part, is given here: http://www.firstpost.com/living/decolonising-indology-rajiv-malhotra-wont-follow-rules-set-west-2356234.html <http://www.firstpost.com/living/decolonising-indology-rajiv-malhotra-wont-follow-rules-set-west-2356234.html>
>  
> Established Western scholars who only talk to one another, might not realize it, but as I notice in non-mainstream media, Malhotra is turning the tables on his attackers, and is coming out of this affair with increased prestige.
>  
> While some of you have provided links to the attacks on him, it has fallen to me to provide links to his responses. Given your apparent interest in the affair, this must have been a useful service. Amid the holy indignation about plagiarism by a man who has amply referred to Nicholson and quoted him many times, thus annulling the very rationale a plagiarist would have, I find it more anomalous that so many academics consider it perfectly normal to hear (and act on) only one half of the story. As Hegel said, "das Wahre ist das Ganze" (truth is the whole). But no, the fact that I have made his voice audible has served as proof among several scholars that I must be in agreement with him, or even in his pay. The latter allegation, and conspiracy theory, sure to be a hit among fishwives, betrays an interesting mentality: the assumption that defending someone's right to be heard implies agreeing with him. By that principle, even Hitler and Stalin were champions of free speech -- at least the free speech of those who agreed with them. It ought to be obvious to scholars that hearing a position and agreeing with that position are two different things. Well yeah, while the affair loses its steam, it becomes time for me to formulate my own thoughts about it, tomorrow or so.
>  
> Fortunately, we can conclude on a positive note. We should take heart from the complaint uttered here that, while so many people signed a petition opposing the pulping of Wendy Doniger's book, so few have now signed the petition demanding the pulping of Malhotra's book. At that time, I wrote that there may be many things wrong with Doniger's book (indeed, a great many), but that banning it is not the answer. It seems that today, a healthy majority here thinks that to the few things wrong with Malhotra's book, banning is still not the right answer.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Kind regards,
>  
>  
> Koenraad Elst     
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de  Thu Jul 23 08:58:09 2015
From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 10:58:09 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Tracing_a_verse_in_Kalha=E1=B9=87a's_R=C4=81jatara=E1=B9=85gin=C4=AB?=
In-Reply-To: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B172DA6@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20150723105809.Horde.CdF8qIknq3X5ESEtDoGPh6x@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>


It is not to be found in Kalha?a's R?jatara?gin?, but in  
?nandabha??a's Vall?lacarita (ed. Harapras?da ??str?: Vall?la Caritam,  
Calcutta: Asiatic Society 1904, [Bibliotheca Indica. 164]):

s?rasvat?? k?nyakubj? gau?? maithilakolkal??
pa?cagau??? sam?k?y?t?? vindhyasyottarav?sina? (1.13)
kar????? caiva taila?g?? gurjjar? r???rav?sina?
andhr??ca dravi??? pa?ca vindhyadak?i?av?sina? (1.14)

And:

s?rasvat?? k?nyakubj?? gau?? maithilakotkal??
pa?ca gau?? iti khy?t? vindhyasyottarav?sina? (2,18.2)
kar????? caiva taila?g? gurjjar? r???rav?sina?
andhr??ca dr?vi??? pa?ca vindhyadak?i?av?sina? (2,18.3)

Best,
Roland Steiner






From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Thu Jul 23 09:17:58 2015
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 11:17:58 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Fwd:__Tracing_a_verse_in_Kalha=E1=B9=87a's_R=C4=81jatara=E1=B9=85gin=C4=AB?=
In-Reply-To: <9E8EFD24-0ADD-4DC9-A822-111A02F0856A@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <BCE2D389-FD5E-4814-A73D-D78B6A47A1B9@uclouvain.be>

A variant of the verse is to be found in the Sahy?drikha??a (of the SkandaP), Uttar?rdha 1,2-3 (Da Cunha ed. p. 301).

D?but du message r?exp?di? :

> De: Christophe Vielle <christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be>
> Objet: R?p : [INDOLOGY] Tracing a verse in Kalha?a's R?jatara?gin?
> Date: 23 juillet 2015 10:42:55 UTC+2
> ?: Rohana Seneviratne <rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk>
> 
> The following reference could be useful:
> Madhav M. Deshpande, "Panca-Gauda und Panca-Dravida.  Umstrittene Grenzen einer traditionellen Klassifikation," In: Arier und Draviden, Konstruktionen der Vergangenheit als Grundlage fur Selbst- und Fremdwahrnehmungen Sudasiens, ed. Michael Bergunder & Rahul Peter Das, Verlag der Franckeschen Stiftungen zu Halle, 2002, pp. ??
> http://rmserv.wt.uni-heidelberg.de/web/publikationen/neue-hallesche-berichte/band-2/arier-und-draviden
> and in English:
> "Pa?ca Gau?a and Pa?ca Dr?vi?a: contested borders of a traditional classification", In: Ananta? ??stram : indological and linguistic studies in honour of Bertil Tikkanen / ed. by Klaus Karttunen. - Helsinki : Finnish Oriental Society, 2010 (Studia Orientalia ; 108), p. 29-58(?)
> http://indologica.de/drupal/?q=node/1142
> 
> Le 23 juil. 2015 ? 10:18, Rohana Seneviratne <rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk> a ?crit :
> 
>> Dear All,
>> 
>> I will be very much thankful if you could kindly help me locate the following verse in Kalha?a's R?jatara?gin?, which describes the ten classes of Brahmins. Many secondary works cite it as appearing in the R?jatara?gin? but does not give the exact reference.
>> 
>> ?kar???ak?? ca taila?g? dr?vi?? mah?r???rak?? gurjar?? ceti pancaiva dr?vi?? vindhyadak?i?e | s?rasvat?? k?nyakubj? gau?? utkalamaithil?? pa?cagau?? iti khy?t? vindhyasyottarav?sina?.? 
>> 
>> [The five Dr?vi?a classes (Pa?ca Dr?vi?as) living to the south of the Vindhy? (mountain range) are Kar???akas (in Karnataka), Taila?gas (in Andhra), Dr?vi?as (in Tamilnadu and Kerala), those in Mah?r???ra and those in Gurjaras (in Gujarat). S?rasvatas (in Punjab, Kashmir & Sindh), K?nyakubjas (in Uttar Pradesh), Gau?as (in Kurukshetra and Rajasthan), Utkalas (in Orissa), and Maithil?s (in Bihar) living to the north of the Vindhya are known as the five Gau?a classes (Pa?ca Gau?as.)]. 
>> 
>> Thank you very much in advance.
>> 
>> Best Wishes,
>> Rohana
>> ------------------------------------------------
>> Rohana Seneviratne
>> DPhil Student in Sanskrit
>> The Oriental Institute
>> Faculty of Oriental Studies
>> University of Oxford
>> Pusey Lane, Oxford
>> OX1 2LE
>> United Kingdom
>> 
>> Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
>> Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> ???????????????????
> Christophe Vielle
> Louvain-la-Neuve
> 

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle
Louvain-la-Neuve



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From nasadasin at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 10:40:52 2015
From: nasadasin at gmail.com (Nasadasin)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 02:40:52 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cc_bipBZpUdcamTuNXhQkYSoWno8u-v7AP1uAURNft2eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A7567461-6368-4DBB-A6BF-7D78BB04B434@gmail.com>

Dear Prof. Wujastyk,

>> You criticize Koenraad Elst, and indirectly me (among others), for viewing the matter of Rajiv Malhotra's "plagiarism" as part of a wider civilizational or cultural encounter. You see it parochially, as a question of professional ethics. This, as I argued before, misses the essential point that Malhotra is not an academic, in particular not an Indologist, and does not pretend to be one. It is presumptuous to convict him of violating the tenets of a profession whose ideas and methods he devotes much of his energy to challenging. I suggest that you are trying to set fire to what you wrongly construe as a local straw man while missing or ignoring the fact that he is actually part of the avant garde of an army forming, and already beginning to threaten, from beyond the disciplinary borders. Malhotra does not belong to Indology or RISA; he is not just an academic outlier or outsider--the sort of crank that he has been portrayed as here--and you will fail to understand or genuinely counter him if you do not look more deeply at what is at play in the context of what I would call the Malhotra phenomenon--a pervasive post-colonial, and partly diasporic, rage at having been unseen, misperceived, ignored, denied, and refused empathy (even when idealized) for three hundred years, and counting. Think of Ralph Ellison's "Invisible Man." It is that sort of rage we see at work in Malhotra, and I am certain Elst is right to perceive that it will be fueled rather than quenched by what will be seen as "Micky Mouse" (trivial, tempest in teapot) accusations of academic plagiarism. I argued before that Malhotra is more like a journalist or public intellectual, and compared him to the writers in Weimar Germany who wrote below the fold in newspapers about cultural matters like contemporary art, socialism, depth psychology, and volkisch revanchism, in other words, about the zeitgeist of their times. I suspect that they, too, often left out attributions and even "plagiarized" when citing other writers. Abhor him as you will--and as a Texas Ph.D. in Sanskrit I share, to some degree, the "horror"--Malhotra is much too important to dispose of as a buffoonish professional Indianist manqu? (even ultra-manqu?). He is another branch of the tree that produced Sri Aurobindo, Tagore, and Sudhir Kakar (to cite someone in my field ), Indians who challenge, from an Indian vantage, Western perspectives not only on India but on the West itself. On our need for this, see Christine Maillard's excellent l'Inde Vue de l'Ouest which shows how the post-Enlightenment West formulated itself in part through its encounters with cultural others. This is still necessary, and people like Malhotra, however unempathic their barbs, are good for us because they prod us in that direction. (And, yes, he should fix his mistakes and apologize for them forthwith.
Respectfully,
Al Collins, PhD, PhD

Sent from my iPad

> On Jul 23, 2015, at 12:25 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Prof. Elst,
> 
> I wondered, as I began reading your post, whether there were quotation marks missing from the sentence beginning, "After all, he had only quoted a Westerner...."  Were you meaning to quote Malhotra, I asked myself, or were you speaking in your own voice?    As I read on, I realized that you are speaking in your own voice.  When I reached your second paragraph, "Established Western scholars who only talk to one another...",  it became obvious to me that you are willing to speak judgementally and dismissively of a whole profession on the basis of a criterion that has something to do with geography, rather than intrinsic merit or careful, engaged and informed scholarship.  It is also possible to read your statement as a specific insult to the other members of the INDOLOGY list, that you consider them "western scholars who only talk to one another."  As you probably know, insulting members of this list, from within the list, is not a behaviour that is tolerated by the managing committee of the INDOLOGY forum.  
>  
> I personally do not believe there is an east-west divide in intellectual ability or viewpoint.  I do not believe in "The West" as a category of thought that has anything useful to offer, and certainly not as a method of categorization that has any intellectual reality or merit. It has been my observation through many decades of engagement in academic life that there is good and bad scholarship to be found in all parts of the world and at all times in history.  Wouldn't it be lovely if it scholarly excellence were so easy to establish!  If scholars could be judged as good or bad because of being "western," or "Jewish," or "Hindu" or "Black," "White," "female," or any other regional, racial or gender category.  But it is not so.  Whatever colour we are, whatever part of the world we live in, we all have to work very hard to understand difficult ideas, and to make judgements that demonstrate integrity and knowledge.  
> 
> And this hard work involves much careful study, much discussion with friends and colleagues, the exposure of one's ideas to teachers, peer reviewers, and at conferences.  Intellectual work consists of composition, exposition, and debate, said Sa-Skya Pandita in the thirteenth century.  This is what it means to be a worthwhile academic.  It is not a matter of winning or losing, of being more insulting than the next person.  It is not a political contest.  It is a matter of developing more subtlety, deeper insight, and a finer sensibility towards truth.  Even someone whose ideas are shown to be wrong is a "winner," since we all strive for truth.  Most important of all, intellectual life is not a matter of defending oneself.  Good academics are very interested in ideas and knowledge; they are not much interested in personality and personal conflict, or in prestige or public perception.  
> 
> You present yourself as having performed the lonely task of providing the members of this list with links to Malhotra's responses.  But you err in thinking that the subset of members of this list who are interested in the accusations of plagiarism against Malhotra would not be following the debate in the media, just as you are.  This list is not the be-all and end-all of indological debate.  It is a forum where just some specialist questions are asked and answered.  You are not personally called upon to promote a particular point of view in a debate that does not concern you, for the supposed good of others.  You do not have the right or the responsibility to set the agenda for what others should be thinking about.  The members of this list have quite as much experience as you in reading public media and in making up their own minds about what they think.  
> 
> You, apparently Malhotra, and others have made at least two important category errors in your responses to this matter.  First, at the heart of this discussion, it is not Malhotra that is the main topic.  It is the plagiarism in his writings that is the issue.  There's a difference.  Malhotra has responded with mighty indignation as if he personally has been attacked, as if he is in a titanic struggle between The Indian Tradition and The West, and pointing out his plagiarism is a sly attack on India or Hinduism.  This is theatrical nonsense.  Malhotra seeks to redefine the terms of the discussion and place himself at the centre of things, perhaps because his goals are political not academic.  He reduces the matter from an discussion about academic ethics to a cheap bar-room brawl between himself and Nicholson.  The reality is, there are questions hanging over his academic writing, that appears by the criteria of the Princeton guidelines to contain plagiarized passages.  
> 
> Second, it is not a war, a battle or a titanic inter-cultural struggle.  We would all increase our understanding of the issue if we avoided military metaphors.  They don't help; they rarely help.  The second category error is to see this matter of plagiarism as a war, a contest or an east-west struggle.  It is what it is, no more, no less.  Professional groups develop practices that help them: climbers use ropes, sky-divers use parachutes.  The academic profession has evolved behaviours that have been shown by centuries of experience to help in the search for right knowledge.  Plagiarism does not help.  It appears that Malhotra has committed plagiarism, according to the criteria accepted by the profession (the Princeton criteria, for example).  What next?  The author may do nothing, or he may correct his books, or he may try to prove that he has not plagiarized.  Everything else is meaningless bluster.
> 
> Sincerely
> Dominik Wujastyk
> 
> 
>> On 22 July 2015 at 17:08, <koenraad.elst at telenet.be> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear listfolk,
>>  
>>  
>> After having provided the link to what Malhotra has to say to Andrew Nicholson's attack on him (linked even earlier), here is the link to what he is doing about  it: http://swarajyamag.com/culture/nicholsons-untruths/  Briefly, in agreement with the publisher, he is throwing Nicholson entirely out of his book, replacing him by Indian authors writing on the same unifying-Hinduism efforts. After all, he had only quoted a Westerner because that is more prestigious and unsuspect, but there is a lot of better knowledge about Hindu tradition among Hindus themselves. In the spirit of decolonization, he is taking this opportunity to highlight Indian scholars in the "decolonized" second version of Indra's Net. The broader context of which the present controversy forms part, is given here: http://www.firstpost.com/living/decolonising-indology-rajiv-malhotra-wont-follow-rules-set-west-2356234.html
>>  
>> Established Western scholars who only talk to one another, might not realize it, but as I notice in non-mainstream media, Malhotra is turning the tables on his attackers, and is coming out of this affair with increased prestige.
>>  
>> While some of you have provided links to the attacks on him, it has fallen to me to provide links to his responses. Given your apparent interest in the affair, this must have been a useful service. Amid the holy indignation about plagiarism by a man who has amply referred to Nicholson and quoted him many times, thus annulling the very rationale a plagiarist would have, I find it more anomalous that so many academics consider it perfectly normal to hear (and act on) only one half of the story. As Hegel said, "das Wahre ist das Ganze" (truth is the whole). But no, the fact that I have made his voice audible has served as proof among several scholars that I must be in agreement with him, or even in his pay. The latter allegation, and conspiracy theory, sure to be a hit among fishwives, betrays an interesting mentality: the assumption that defending someone's right to be heard implies agreeing with him. By that principle, even Hitler and Stalin were champions of free speech -- at least the free speech of those who agreed with them. It ought to be obvious to scholars that hearing a position and agreeing with that position are two different things. Well yeah, while the affair loses its steam, it becomes time for me to formulate my own thoughts about it, tomorrow or so.
>>  
>> Fortunately, we can conclude on a positive note. We should take heart from the complaint uttered here that, while so many people signed a petition opposing the pulping of Wendy Doniger's book, so few have now signed the petition demanding the pulping of Malhotra's book. At that time, I wrote that there may be many things wrong with Doniger's book (indeed, a great many), but that banning it is not the answer. It seems that today, a healthy majority here thinks that to the few things wrong with Malhotra's book, banning is still not the right answer.
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> Kind regards,
>>  
>>  
>> Koenraad Elst     
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl  Thu Jul 23 10:46:01 2015
From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 12:46:01 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <48CCFEE1-B259-4EB2-A62A-3C670A153DA5@ivs.edu>
Message-ID: <CAAPrgbpXyRCfOfaQ+4cFwtq7mJzWBtGLidtM4jVmxu7VogVkug@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dominik, I fully agree with your opinion. Thank you very much for it.

Dear Professor Resnick, thank you for the post.

Best,

Joanna Jurewicz



---
dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz, prof. UW
Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
00-927 Warszawa
https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz

2015-07-23 10:54 GMT+02:00 Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu>:

> I appreciate much of what Dominik says here. I also really appreciate Shiv
> Visvanathan?s balanced view of the problem, posted by Professor Pandurangi.
>
>
> m.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/rajiv-malhotra-plagiarism-issue-and-hindutva/article7448583.ece
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 23, 2015, at 10:25 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Prof. Elst,
>
> I wondered, as I began reading your post, whether there were quotation
> marks missing from the sentence beginning, "After all, he had only quoted a
> Westerner...."  Were you meaning to quote Malhotra, I asked myself, or were
> you speaking in your own voice?    As I read on, I realized that you are
> speaking in your own voice.  When I reached your second paragraph,
> "Established Western scholars who only talk to one another...",  it became
> obvious to me that you are willing to speak judgementally and dismissively
> of a whole profession on the basis of a criterion that has something to do
> with geography, rather than intrinsic merit or careful, engaged and
> informed scholarship.  It is also possible to read your statement as a
> specific insult to the other members of the INDOLOGY list, that you
> consider them "western scholars who only talk to one another."  As you
> probably know, insulting members of this list, from within the list, is not
> a behaviour that is tolerated by the managing committee of the INDOLOGY
> forum.
>
> I personally do not believe there is an east-west divide in intellectual
> ability or viewpoint.  I do not believe in "The West" as a category of
> thought that has anything useful to offer, and certainly not as a method of
> categorization that has any intellectual reality or merit. It has been my
> observation through many decades of engagement in academic life that there
> is good and bad scholarship to be found in all parts of the world and at
> all times in history.  Wouldn't it be lovely if it scholarly excellence
> were so easy to establish!  If scholars could be judged as good or bad
> because of being "western," or "Jewish," or "Hindu" or "Black," "White,"
> "female," or any other regional, racial or gender category.  But it is not
> so.  Whatever colour we are, whatever part of the world we live in, we all
> have to work very hard to understand difficult ideas, and to make
> judgements that demonstrate integrity and knowledge.
>
> And this hard work involves much careful study, much discussion with
> friends and colleagues, the exposure of one's ideas to teachers, peer
> reviewers, and at conferences.  Intellectual work consists of composition,
> exposition, and debate, said Sa-Skya Pandita in the thirteenth century.
> This is what it means to be a worthwhile academic.  It is not a matter of
> winning or losing, of being more insulting than the next person.  It is not
> a political contest.  It is a matter of developing more subtlety, deeper
> insight, and a finer sensibility towards truth.  Even someone whose ideas
> are shown to be wrong is a "winner," since we all strive for truth.  Most
> important of all, intellectual life is not a matter of defending oneself.
> Good academics are very interested in ideas and knowledge; they are not
> much interested in personality and personal conflict, or in prestige or
> public perception.
>
> You present yourself as having performed the lonely task of providing the
> members of this list with links to Malhotra's responses.  But you err in
> thinking that the subset of members of this list who are interested in the
> accusations of plagiarism against Malhotra would not be following the
> debate in the media, just as you are.  This list is not the be-all and
> end-all of indological debate.  It is a forum where just some specialist
> questions are asked and answered.  You are not personally called upon to
> promote a particular point of view in a debate that does not concern you,
> for the supposed good of others.  You do not have the right or the
> responsibility to set the agenda for what others should be thinking about.
> The members of this list have quite as much experience as you in reading
> public media and in making up their own minds about what they think.
>
> You, apparently Malhotra, and others have made at least two important
> category errors in your responses to this matter.  First, at the heart of
> this discussion, it is not Malhotra that is the main topic.  It is the
> plagiarism in his writings that is the issue.  There's a difference.
> Malhotra has responded with mighty indignation as if he personally has been
> attacked, as if he is in a titanic struggle between The Indian Tradition
> and The West, and pointing out his plagiarism is a sly attack on India or
> Hinduism.  This is theatrical nonsense.  Malhotra seeks to redefine the
> terms of the discussion and place himself at the centre of things, perhaps
> because his goals are political not academic.  He reduces the matter from
> an discussion about academic ethics to a cheap bar-room brawl between
> himself and Nicholson.  The reality is, there are questions hanging over
> his academic writing, that appears by the criteria of the Princeton
> guidelines to contain plagiarized passages.
>
> Second, it is not a war, a battle or a titanic inter-cultural struggle.
> We would all increase our understanding of the issue if we avoided military
> metaphors.  They don't help; they rarely help.  The second category error
> is to see this matter of plagiarism as a war, a contest or an east-west
> struggle.  It is what it is, no more, no less.  Professional groups develop
> practices that help them: climbers use ropes, sky-divers use parachutes.
> The academic profession has evolved behaviours that have been shown by
> centuries of experience to help in the search for right knowledge.
> Plagiarism does not help.  It appears that Malhotra has committed
> plagiarism, according to the criteria accepted by the profession (the
> Princeton criteria, for example).  What next?  The author may do nothing,
> or he may correct his books, or he may try to prove that he has not
> plagiarized.  Everything else is meaningless bluster.
>
> Sincerely
> Dominik Wujastyk
>
>
> On 22 July 2015 at 17:08, <koenraad.elst at telenet.be> wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear listfolk,
>>
>>
>> After having provided the link to what Malhotra has to say to Andrew
>> Nicholson's attack on him (linked even earlier), here is the link to what
>> he is doing about  it:
>> http://swarajyamag.com/culture/nicholsons-untruths/  Briefly, in
>> agreement with the publisher, he is throwing Nicholson entirely out of his
>> book, replacing him by Indian authors writing on the same unifying-Hinduism
>> efforts. After all, he had only quoted a Westerner because that is more
>> prestigious and unsuspect, but there is a lot of better knowledge about
>> Hindu tradition among Hindus themselves. In the spirit of decolonization,
>> he is taking this opportunity to highlight Indian scholars in the
>> "decolonized" second version of Indra's Net. The broader context of which
>> the present controversy forms part, is given here:
>> http://www.firstpost.com/living/decolonising-indology-rajiv-malhotra-wont-follow-rules-set-west-2356234.html
>>
>>  Established Western scholars who only talk to one another, might not
>> realize it, but as I notice in non-mainstream media, Malhotra is turning
>> the tables on his attackers, and is coming out of this affair with
>> increased prestige.
>>
>> While some of you have provided links to the attacks on him, it has
>> fallen to me to provide links to his responses. Given your apparent
>> interest in the affair, this must have been a useful service. Amid the holy
>> indignation about plagiarism by a man who has amply referred to Nicholson
>> and quoted him many times, thus annulling the very rationale a plagiarist
>> would have, I find it more anomalous that so many academics consider it
>> perfectly normal to hear (and act on) only one half of the story. As Hegel
>> said, "das Wahre ist das Ganze" (truth is the whole). But no, the fact that
>> I have made his voice audible has served as proof among several scholars
>> that I must be in agreement with him, or even in his pay. The latter
>> allegation, and conspiracy theory, sure to be a hit among fishwives,
>> betrays an interesting mentality: the assumption that defending someone's
>> right to be heard implies agreeing with him. By that principle, even Hitler
>> and Stalin were champions of free speech -- at least the free speech of
>> those who agreed with them. It ought to be obvious to scholars that hearing
>> a position and agreeing with that position are two different things. Well
>> yeah, while the affair loses its steam, it becomes time for me to formulate
>> my own thoughts about it, tomorrow or so.
>>
>> Fortunately, we can conclude on a positive note. We should take heart
>> from the complaint uttered here that, while so many people signed a
>> petition opposing the pulping of Wendy Doniger's book, so few have now
>> signed the petition demanding the pulping of Malhotra's book. At that time,
>> I wrote that there may be many things wrong with Doniger's book (indeed, a
>> great many), but that banning it is not the answer. It seems that today, a
>> healthy majority here thinks that to the few things wrong with Malhotra's
>> book, banning is still not the right answer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>>
>> Koenraad Elst
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu Jul 23 11:37:52 2015
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 07:37:52 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Tracing_a_verse_in_Kalha=E1=B9=87a's_R=C4=81jatara=E1=B9=85gin=C4=AB?=
In-Reply-To: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B172DA6@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcn7uAoFH8sZVVzX6dNEFpS3u2qeE2XQ8d2fT6u-x3Mfg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Rohana,

     I have attached an article of mine that discusses these and similar
verses, and the division of Gau?a and Dr?vi?a.

Madhav Deshpande

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 4:18 AM, Rohana Seneviratne <
rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

>  Dear All,
>
>  I will be very much thankful if you could kindly help me locate the
> following verse in Kalha?a's R?jatara?gin?, which describes the ten classes
> of Brahmins. Many secondary works cite it as appearing in the R?jatara?gin?
> but does not give the exact reference.
>
>  ?kar???ak?? ca taila?g? dr?vi?? mah?r???rak?? gurjar?? ceti pancaiva
> dr?vi?? vindhyadak?i?e | s?rasvat?? k?nyakubj? gau?? utkalamaithil??
> pa?cagau?? iti khy?t? vindhyasyottarav?sina?.?
>
>  [The five Dr?vi?a classes (Pa?ca Dr?vi?as) living to the south of the
> Vindhy? (mountain range) are Kar???akas (in Karnataka), Taila?gas (in
> Andhra), Dr?vi?as (in Tamilnadu and Kerala), those in Mah?r???ra and those
> in Gurjaras (in Gujarat). S?rasvatas (in Punjab, Kashmir & Sindh),
> K?nyakubjas (in Uttar Pradesh), Gau?as (in Kurukshetra and Rajasthan),
> Utkalas (in Orissa), and Maithil?s (in Bihar) living to the north of the
> Vindhya are known as the five Gau?a classes (Pa?ca Gau?as.)].
>
>  Thank you very much in advance.
>
>   Best Wishes,
> Rohana
> ------------------------------------------------
> Rohana Seneviratne
> DPhil Student in Sanskrit
> The Oriental Institute
> Faculty of Oriental Studies
> University of Oxford
> Pusey Lane, Oxford
> OX1 2LE
> United Kingdom
>
> Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
> Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk  Thu Jul 23 12:13:37 2015
From: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk (Rohana Seneviratne)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 12:13:37 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Tracing_a_verse_in_Kalha=E1=B9=87a's_R=C4=81jatara=E1=B9=85gin=C4=AB?=
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzcn7uAoFH8sZVVzX6dNEFpS3u2qeE2XQ8d2fT6u-x3Mfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B172E3B@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>

I am much grateful to Walter Slaje, Christophe Vielle, Roland Steiner, Dipak Bhattacharya and Madhav Deshpande, who very kindly provided me the reference and reading materials on it.

Now it is certain that the verse does not appear in the R?jatara?gin? as many works and websites erroneously mention. It is found first mentioned in the Sahy?drikha??a.
Thanking all of you again and the indology listserv,


Best Wishes,
Rohana
------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/
________________________________
From: Madhav Deshpande [mmdesh at umich.edu]
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 12:37 PM
To: Rohana Seneviratne
Cc: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tracing a verse in Kalha?a's R?jatara?gin?

Hello Rohana,

     I have attached an article of mine that discusses these and similar verses, and the division of Gau?a and Dr?vi?a.

Madhav Deshpande

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 4:18 AM, Rohana Seneviratne <rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk<mailto:rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk>> wrote:
Dear All,

I will be very much thankful if you could kindly help me locate the following verse in Kalha?a's R?jatara?gin?, which describes the ten classes of Brahmins. Many secondary works cite it as appearing in the R?jatara?gin? but does not give the exact reference.

?kar???ak?? ca taila?g? dr?vi?? mah?r???rak?? gurjar?? ceti pancaiva dr?vi?? vindhyadak?i?e | s?rasvat?? k?nyakubj? gau?? utkalamaithil?? pa?cagau?? iti khy?t? vindhyasyottarav?sina?.?

[The five Dr?vi?a classes (Pa?ca Dr?vi?as) living to the south of the Vindhy? (mountain range) are Kar???akas (in Karnataka), Taila?gas (in Andhra), Dr?vi?as (in Tamilnadu and Kerala), those in Mah?r???ra and those in Gurjaras (in Gujarat). S?rasvatas (in Punjab, Kashmir & Sindh), K?nyakubjas (in Uttar Pradesh), Gau?as (in Kurukshetra and Rajasthan), Utkalas (in Orissa), and Maithil?s (in Bihar) living to the north of the Vindhya are known as the five Gau?a classes (Pa?ca Gau?as.)].

Thank you very much in advance.

Best Wishes,
Rohana
------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk<mailto:rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk>
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



--
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From vglyssenko at yandex.ru  Thu Jul 23 13:37:08 2015
From: vglyssenko at yandex.ru (Viktoria Lysenko)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 16:37:08 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] some papers of Alexander Piatigorsky
Message-ID: <2275711437658628@web6g.yandex.ru>


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Thu Jul 23 13:45:03 2015
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 15:45:03 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <A7567461-6368-4DBB-A6BF-7D78BB04B434@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEgrCzDT+jTzg9ZQfkXouR2xVvfuhLJ8HbPXiehmGcFHhmFwUw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Al,

Thank you for your input. Good, cool evaluation of the situation.

Rajiv Malhotra is not an indologist, sensu stricto. He -  is  -  somewhere
there; he acts, he writes out of his own, self-created space. And he is
going to stay there. And his many supporters are not going to simply
disappear.

Do we need to talk to them, as persons? Not necessarily. But we need to
address at least some of the doubts (re models of Indology) raised by them.

My reference point? Untouchability.

Best,

 Artur Karp
Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.)
South Asian Studies Dept.
Oriental Faculty
University of Warsaw
Poland





2015-07-23 12:40 GMT+02:00 Nasadasin <nasadasin at gmail.com>:

> Dear Prof. Wujastyk,
>
> You criticize Koenraad Elst, and indirectly me (among others), for viewing
> the matter of Rajiv Malhotra's "plagiarism" as part of a wider
> civilizational or cultural encounter. You see it parochially, as a question
> of professional ethics. This, as I argued before, misses the essential
> point that Malhotra is not an academic, in particular not an Indologist,
> and does not pretend to be one. It is presumptuous to convict him of
> violating the tenets of a profession whose ideas and methods he devotes
> much of his energy to challenging. I suggest that you are trying to set
> fire to what you wrongly construe as a local straw man while missing or
> ignoring the fact that he is actually part of the avant garde of an army
> forming, and already beginning to threaten, from beyond the disciplinary
> borders. Malhotra does not belong to Indology or RISA; he is not just an
> academic outlier or outsider--the sort of crank that he has been portrayed
> as here--and you will fail to understand or genuinely counter him if you do
> not look more deeply at what is at play in the context of what I would call
> the Malhotra phenomenon--a pervasive post-colonial, and partly diasporic,
> rage at having been unseen, misperceived, ignored, denied, and refused
> empathy (even when idealized) for three hundred years, and counting. Think
> of Ralph Ellison's "Invisible Man." It is that sort of rage we see at work
> in Malhotra, and I am certain Elst is right to perceive that it will be
> fueled rather than quenched by what will be seen as "Micky Mouse" (trivial,
> tempest in teapot) accusations of academic plagiarism. I argued before that
> Malhotra is more like a journalist or public intellectual, and compared him
> to the writers in Weimar Germany who wrote below the fold in newspapers
> about cultural matters like contemporary art, socialism, depth psychology,
> and volkisch revanchism, in other words, about the zeitgeist of their
> times. I suspect that they, too, often left out attributions and even
> "plagiarized" when citing other writers. Abhor him as you will--and as a
> Texas Ph.D. in Sanskrit I share, to some degree, the "horror"--Malhotra is
> much too important to dispose of as a buffoonish professional Indianist
> manqu? (even ultra-manqu?). He is another branch of the tree that produced
> Sri Aurobindo, Tagore, and Sudhir Kakar (to cite someone in my field ),
> Indians who challenge, from an Indian vantage, Western perspectives not
> only on India but on the West itself. On our need for this, see Christine
> Maillard's excellent l'Inde Vue de l'Ouest which shows how the
> post-Enlightenment West formulated itself in part through its encounters
> with cultural others. This is still necessary, and people like Malhotra,
> however unempathic their barbs, are good for us because they prod us in
> that direction. (And, yes, he should fix his mistakes and apologize for
> them forthwith.
>
> Respectfully,
> Al Collins, PhD, PhD
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 23, 2015, at 12:25 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Prof. Elst,
>
> I wondered, as I began reading your post, whether there were quotation
> marks missing from the sentence beginning, "After all, he had only quoted a
> Westerner...."  Were you meaning to quote Malhotra, I asked myself, or were
> you speaking in your own voice?    As I read on, I realized that you are
> speaking in your own voice.  When I reached your second paragraph,
> "Established Western scholars who only talk to one another...",  it became
> obvious to me that you are willing to speak judgementally and dismissively
> of a whole profession on the basis of a criterion that has something to do
> with geography, rather than intrinsic merit or careful, engaged and
> informed scholarship.  It is also possible to read your statement as a
> specific insult to the other members of the INDOLOGY list, that you
> consider them "western scholars who only talk to one another."  As you
> probably know, insulting members of this list, from within the list, is not
> a behaviour that is tolerated by the managing committee of the INDOLOGY
> forum.
>
> I personally do not believe there is an east-west divide in intellectual
> ability or viewpoint.  I do not believe in "The West" as a category of
> thought that has anything useful to offer, and certainly not as a method of
> categorization that has any intellectual reality or merit. It has been my
> observation through many decades of engagement in academic life that there
> is good and bad scholarship to be found in all parts of the world and at
> all times in history.  Wouldn't it be lovely if it scholarly excellence
> were so easy to establish!  If scholars could be judged as good or bad
> because of being "western," or "Jewish," or "Hindu" or "Black," "White,"
> "female," or any other regional, racial or gender category.  But it is not
> so.  Whatever colour we are, whatever part of the world we live in, we all
> have to work very hard to understand difficult ideas, and to make
> judgements that demonstrate integrity and knowledge.
>
> And this hard work involves much careful study, much discussion with
> friends and colleagues, the exposure of one's ideas to teachers, peer
> reviewers, and at conferences.  Intellectual work consists of composition,
> exposition, and debate, said Sa-Skya Pandita in the thirteenth century.
> This is what it means to be a worthwhile academic.  It is not a matter of
> winning or losing, of being more insulting than the next person.  It is not
> a political contest.  It is a matter of developing more subtlety, deeper
> insight, and a finer sensibility towards truth.  Even someone whose ideas
> are shown to be wrong is a "winner," since we all strive for truth.  Most
> important of all, intellectual life is not a matter of defending oneself.
> Good academics are very interested in ideas and knowledge; they are not
> much interested in personality and personal conflict, or in prestige or
> public perception.
>
> You present yourself as having performed the lonely task of providing the
> members of this list with links to Malhotra's responses.  But you err in
> thinking that the subset of members of this list who are interested in the
> accusations of plagiarism against Malhotra would not be following the
> debate in the media, just as you are.  This list is not the be-all and
> end-all of indological debate.  It is a forum where just some specialist
> questions are asked and answered.  You are not personally called upon to
> promote a particular point of view in a debate that does not concern you,
> for the supposed good of others.  You do not have the right or the
> responsibility to set the agenda for what others should be thinking about.
> The members of this list have quite as much experience as you in reading
> public media and in making up their own minds about what they think.
>
> You, apparently Malhotra, and others have made at least two important
> category errors in your responses to this matter.  First, at the heart of
> this discussion, it is not Malhotra that is the main topic.  It is the
> plagiarism in his writings that is the issue.  There's a difference.
> Malhotra has responded with mighty indignation as if he personally has been
> attacked, as if he is in a titanic struggle between The Indian Tradition
> and The West, and pointing out his plagiarism is a sly attack on India or
> Hinduism.  This is theatrical nonsense.  Malhotra seeks to redefine the
> terms of the discussion and place himself at the centre of things, perhaps
> because his goals are political not academic.  He reduces the matter from
> an discussion about academic ethics to a cheap bar-room brawl between
> himself and Nicholson.  The reality is, there are questions hanging over
> his academic writing, that appears by the criteria of the Princeton
> guidelines to contain plagiarized passages.
>
> Second, it is not a war, a battle or a titanic inter-cultural struggle.
> We would all increase our understanding of the issue if we avoided military
> metaphors.  They don't help; they rarely help.  The second category error
> is to see this matter of plagiarism as a war, a contest or an east-west
> struggle.  It is what it is, no more, no less.  Professional groups develop
> practices that help them: climbers use ropes, sky-divers use parachutes.
> The academic profession has evolved behaviours that have been shown by
> centuries of experience to help in the search for right knowledge.
> Plagiarism does not help.  It appears that Malhotra has committed
> plagiarism, according to the criteria accepted by the profession (the
> Princeton criteria, for example).  What next?  The author may do nothing,
> or he may correct his books, or he may try to prove that he has not
> plagiarized.  Everything else is meaningless bluster.
>
> Sincerely
> Dominik Wujastyk
>
>
> On 22 July 2015 at 17:08, <koenraad.elst at telenet.be> wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear listfolk,
>>
>>
>> After having provided the link to what Malhotra has to say to Andrew
>> Nicholson's attack on him (linked even earlier), here is the link to what
>> he is doing about  it:
>> http://swarajyamag.com/culture/nicholsons-untruths/  Briefly, in
>> agreement with the publisher, he is throwing Nicholson entirely out of his
>> book, replacing him by Indian authors writing on the same unifying-Hinduism
>> efforts. After all, he had only quoted a Westerner because that is more
>> prestigious and unsuspect, but there is a lot of better knowledge about
>> Hindu tradition among Hindus themselves. In the spirit of decolonization,
>> he is taking this opportunity to highlight Indian scholars in the
>> "decolonized" second version of Indra's Net. The broader context of which
>> the present controversy forms part, is given here:
>> http://www.firstpost.com/living/decolonising-indology-rajiv-malhotra-wont-follow-rules-set-west-2356234.html
>>
>>  Established Western scholars who only talk to one another, might not
>> realize it, but as I notice in non-mainstream media, Malhotra is turning
>> the tables on his attackers, and is coming out of this affair with
>> increased prestige.
>>
>> While some of you have provided links to the attacks on him, it has
>> fallen to me to provide links to his responses. Given your apparent
>> interest in the affair, this must have been a useful service. Amid the holy
>> indignation about plagiarism by a man who has amply referred to Nicholson
>> and quoted him many times, thus annulling the very rationale a plagiarist
>> would have, I find it more anomalous that so many academics consider it
>> perfectly normal to hear (and act on) only one half of the story. As Hegel
>> said, "das Wahre ist das Ganze" (truth is the whole). But no, the fact that
>> I have made his voice audible has served as proof among several scholars
>> that I must be in agreement with him, or even in his pay. The latter
>> allegation, and conspiracy theory, sure to be a hit among fishwives,
>> betrays an interesting mentality: the assumption that defending someone's
>> right to be heard implies agreeing with him. By that principle, even Hitler
>> and Stalin were champions of free speech -- at least the free speech of
>> those who agreed with them. It ought to be obvious to scholars that hearing
>> a position and agreeing with that position are two different things. Well
>> yeah, while the affair loses its steam, it becomes time for me to formulate
>> my own thoughts about it, tomorrow or so.
>>
>> Fortunately, we can conclude on a positive note. We should take heart
>> from the complaint uttered here that, while so many people signed a
>> petition opposing the pulping of Wendy Doniger's book, so few have now
>> signed the petition demanding the pulping of Malhotra's book. At that time,
>> I wrote that there may be many things wrong with Doniger's book (indeed, a
>> great many), but that banning it is not the answer. It seems that today, a
>> healthy majority here thinks that to the few things wrong with Malhotra's
>> book, banning is still not the right answer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>>
>> Koenraad Elst
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 13:52:40 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 15:52:40 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <CAEgrCzDT+jTzg9ZQfkXouR2xVvfuhLJ8HbPXiehmGcFHhmFwUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeY5WDsOx_+OwXC-dNaw4WkBPVBavvsc3-NgfozPKK+uA@mail.gmail.com>

?"?
?
?Do we need to talk to them??," you ask. I don't think so, either.  Not
because there isn't an issue here.   But because we're unqualified.
Speaking for myself, I'm not a sociologist, or even a history of religions
person.  I haven't read all the subaltern stuff, nor all the Orientalism
debates.  I've mostly spent my time trying to understand old Sanskrit texts
on vyakarana, ayurveda, and yoga.  That is not a good preparation for
debating with Malhotra, who is not really interested in Sanskrit, as far as
I can tell.

I do think some scholars need to take him on, although I think his
arguments are feeble to the point of not being serious.  But it's a job for
someone who does Orientalism etc. professionally.

Best,
Dominik


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From caf57 at cam.ac.uk  Thu Jul 23 15:57:23 2015
From: caf57 at cam.ac.uk (C.A. Formigatti)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 16:57:23 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with address
In-Reply-To: <72a72c865de2303c73c051b00d47207a@cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <65047b42c7060e576b9be0d97dcdd78c@cam.ac.uk>

Many thanks to Andrew Ollett, Asko Parpola, Michio Yano, Dragomir 
Dimitrov, Ashok Aklujkar and Dipak Bhattacharya for their help.

Camillo Formigatti






From aksobhya.buddha at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 18:07:22 2015
From: aksobhya.buddha at gmail.com (Justin Fifield)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 14:07:22 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf request (Bechert 1973)
Message-ID: <55B12D5A.1060804@gmail.com>

Dear list,

Could someone please help me obtain the following chapter in pdf? My 
institution does not have this book and, in any case, I am away from campus.

Bechert, H. 1973. "Notes on the Formation of Buddhist Sects and the 
Origins of the Mah?y?na." In _German Scholars on India, Contributions to 
Indian Studies_, 6-18. Varanasi: Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series Office.

Thank you in advance,
Justin Fifield


Ph.D. Candidate
Harvard University
fifield at fas.harvard.edu





From aksobhya.buddha at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 18:19:03 2015
From: aksobhya.buddha at gmail.com (Justin Fifield)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 14:19:03 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf request (Bechert 1973)
In-Reply-To: <55B12D5A.1060804@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55B13017.1050508@gmail.com>

I now have this pdf.  Thanks!

- Justin Fifield

On 7/23/2015 2:07 PM, Justin Fifield wrote:
> Dear list,
>
> Could someone please help me obtain the following chapter in pdf? My 
> institution does not have this book and, in any case, I am away from 
> campus.
>
> Bechert, H. 1973. "Notes on the Formation of Buddhist Sects and the 
> Origins of the Mah?y?na." In _German Scholars on India, Contributions 
> to Indian Studies_, 6-18. Varanasi: Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series Office.
>
> Thank you in advance,
> Justin Fifield
>
>
> Ph.D. Candidate
> Harvard University
> fifield at fas.harvard.edu






From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Thu Jul 23 20:08:31 2015
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 15 22:08:31 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cc_bipBZpUdcamTuNXhQkYSoWno8u-v7AP1uAURNft2eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2018941799.263109630.1437682111588.JavaMail.root@telenet.be>



Dear Prof Wujastyk, dear others, 

? 
? 
>I wondered, as I began reading your post, whether there were quotation marks missing from the sentence beginning, "After all, he had only quoted a Westerner...."? Were you meaning to quote Malhotra, I asked myself, or were you speaking in your own voice???? As I read on, I realized that you are speaking in your own voice.< 
? 
? 
Well, that is an interesting case study in the non-use of quote marks even when entering someone else's mind. Malhotra never said: "After all, I am only quoting a Westerner" (so, no quote marks), but that phrase does sum up the thought process that explains his subsequent behaviour, viz. replacing a Western source (Nicholson) by Indian sources, "decolonizing" his own narrative. No, this was not me speaking, it was me trying to enter the thought process in Malhotra's mind that explains his behaviour.?Actually a very normal procedure in non-academic writing. 
? 
? 
? 
>? When I reached your second paragraph, "Established Western scholars who only talk to one another...",? it became obvious to me that you are willing to speak judgementally and dismissively of a whole profession on the basis of a criterion that has something to do with geography, rather than intrinsic merit or careful, engaged and informed scholarship.? It is also possible to read your statement as a specific insult to the other members of the INDOLOGY list, that you consider them "western scholars who only talk to one another."? As you probably know, insulting members of this list, from within the list, is not a behaviour that is tolerated by the managing committee of the INDOLOGY forum.?< 
? 
Good to hear this, having freshly been the target (along with Vishal Agarwal) of false allegations by the listmaster of another list, who moreover barred me from answering. A tenured academic, the umpteenth counter-example to the common belief that an academic position implies?open-mindedness and?integrity.??So, I will really think twice about speaking "judgementally and dismissively of a whole profession on the basis of a criterion that has something to do with geography". As a reread?of my text (not too much to ask from a philologist) will allow you to?verify, I have done no such thing. I only assume that there exist "Established Western scholars who only talk to one another" (I've met/read a few) without pretending to know how many there are, let alone assuming that all members of this list or of the profession satisfy that description. 
? 
>I personally do not believe there is an east-west divide in intellectual ability or viewpoint.? I do not believe in "The West" as a category of thought that has anything useful to offer, and certainly not as a method of categorization that has any intellectual reality or merit. It has been my observation through many decades of engagement in academic life that there is good and bad scholarship to be found in all parts of the world and at all times in history.? Wouldn't it be lovely if it scholarly excellence were so easy to establish!< 
? 
You echo my own words in a recent intervention on Rajiv Malhotra's list. In that forum, such a restatement of the obvious was necessary (and was supported by Malhotra), because numerous Indians simplify the problem to an ethnic divide.??However, through colonialism, the power equation in the formation of Indology has had a real impact, more than we now seem to?realize, and there is merit in addressing that heritage. The ethnic faultlines have badly been blurred, however. Thus, many Western "South-Asian Studies scholars" (as opposed to Indologists) strike an anti-Hindu position on any issue under the sun, not out of Western imperialism or so, but in deference to their Indian and Indo-American peers, who in turn have interiorized the "Macaulayite" attitudes imparted to an earlier generation by the then-dominant Britishers. Thus, the institute recently set up in Berkeley which, in Malhotra's terms, uses the langage of human rights as a pretext for?"breaking India", consists mostly of Indo-Americans pursuing an intra-Indian agenda, rather than being (as many Indians imagine) some kind of CIA agents. 
? 
? 
?>And this hard work involves much careful study, much discussion with friends and colleagues, the exposure of one's ideas to teachers, peer reviewers, and at conferences.? Intellectual work consists of composition, exposition, and debate, said Sa-Skya Pandita in the thirteenth century.? This is what it means to be a worthwhile academic.< 
? 
Wonderful, I couldn't have said it better. The Dark Ages were not so dark after all. But in that case,?where are the scholars here who want to "debate" the man at the heart of the controversy that seems to move at least a few among you? I see a lot of spitting at him behind his back, but face-to-face debate? 
? 
I see more pseudo-debates than real debates: all participants agreeing on the real issue but dramatizing minor differences to create a semblance of debate. As Noam Chomsky said, the best way to impose conformity of opinion is to have debates about minor matters but respecting a consensus on the major issue. This is true on TV talkshows, alright, but also on academic platforms. Some of you seem to have strong opinions on free speech, as I remember from the Wendy Doniger book withdrawal affair. Alright then, an example about free speech. 
? 
In the year of the Danish cartoon affair, the AAR at its annual conference held a panel debate about the cartoons. Of the six participants (or seven, including the moderator), not one defended "free speech, period". I had?vaguely thought that "free speech, period" was enshrined in the US Constitution and thus rather humdrum, but no, it was the target of attack of the entire AAR spectrum of opinion; academics all of them.?All of them attacked that position, mostly starting their stories with: "I am all for freedom of speech, BUT...." And then they followed up with essentially the same position taken by Dina Nath Batra to muzzle Wendy Doniger: "...free speech doesn't mean the freedom to insult." For all I care, they may even have been right and the unrepresented pro-free-speech position may have been?wrong, who knows. But even then: it was not a debate. And except for me, nobody seemed to find that problematic. 
? 
Come to think of it, Batra was only repeating the position enunciated a few years earlier by a unanimous panel at the AAR. So, if you disagree with Batra, i.e. if you think that free speech does imply the right to insult,?please pick up the courage to say so at the AAR conference. 
? 
? 
>You present yourself as having performed the lonely task of providing the members of this list with links to Malhotra's responses.? But you err in thinking that the subset of members of this list who are interested in the accusations of plagiarism against Malhotra would not be following the debate in the media, just as you are.< 
? 
Well, I agree that life would have passed just fine if no one had mentioned the Malhotra affair here. Point conceded. But then, you could have said this to the first person who provided anti-Malhotra links, and whom I only followed up with the links conspicuously missing.?I had no intention of discussing the (to me, surprising) Malhotra affair here, until I saw someone else do so,?moreover in very strong terms. Since those seemed to be the established ways on this list, I only followed suit, though in more measured terms.? 
? 
? 
? 
Kind regards,? 
? 
? 
Koenraad Elst????? 




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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Fri Jul 24 10:03:23 2015
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 15 12:03:23 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeY5WDsOx_+OwXC-dNaw4WkBPVBavvsc3-NgfozPKK+uA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55B20D6B.7010706@uni-muenchen.de>

Dominik Wujastyk wrote [in response to Artur Karp]:

> ?Do we need to talk to them?? you ask. I don't think so, either.
> Not because there isn't an issue here. But because we're
> unqualified. [...]


But we are far more qualified to talk back than they are to talk about us.

It seems that most persons on this list are engaged in the study of
classical Sanskrit texts, ancient Indian history and other fine things.
One crucial point of the Malhotra plagiarism issue, which affects us
directly, seems to elude some of the readers. For that reason, it may be
useful to point out what is happening here from a not entirely
classicist perspective ?

Mr Malhotra is neither a traditionalist nor a conservative. What he is
promoting is a political fantasy about the Indian nation that was
concocted mainly in the first half of the twentieth century. (H.-J.
Klimkeit?s 1981 book Der politische Hinduismusgives a step-by-step
overview of this development.) This was a time when some people also in
certain Western nations created new fantasies about themselves: about
their origins, their greatness, how they were wronged by other nations
and needed revenge, etc.

Now comes that crucial point. It is a matter of intellectual integrity
and the search for academically defensible truth on the one hand vs.
propagandistic falsehood on the other ? and how Malhotra fits us in.
What Mr Malhotra does in his pamphleteering is evidence (was this still
necessary?) that he respects neither our work nor any of us. People such
as he want to silence or shout down academic researchers in India and
abroad if and when the findings of scholarly and scientific research
contradict the fantasy.

Mr Malhotra writes plainly abusively about scholars of Indian culture
(with whose views other scholars may disagree: that is a different
matter and is a valid part of the academic process) and disregards
scholarly standards, whether ?Indian? or ?non-Indian?, whatever he
claims. If he plagiarizes (i.e., steals) something from one of our
colleagues (regardless of who, or where that person is) and tinkers with
it to make it fit his political program, it seems clear that he needs
academia for his program and will also attempt to corrupt it if that
suits his purpose./

/Mr Malhotrashouts that Indians must take back the study of Indian
culture? What nonsense. Real traditional studies were never taken away
from them. Or did all the p??ha??l?s, the gurukulas, the Sanskrit
Colleges disappear? And I know of a fact that what is taught in Indian
universities is not (and cannot be) a mindless copy of what is taught in
Western universities. /No: we must take back our own work, in a most
concrete way, and fight plagiarism, distortion//and deliberate
misrepresentation//.

/

So it is not only about steya, the wrong of stealing something from
Nicholson and others. It is also about satya. If we take our work and
ourselves seriously, we have no choice but to condemn such doings of Mr
Malhotra in very clear terms.

This also goes for Dr. Elst, who earlier supported the now notorious
forger-tinkerer N.S. Rajaram (dear Koenraad: you ought to know better by
now and not support such causes).

Probably Malhotra will again call me an ?especially nasty anti-Hindu
person?
(http://beingdifferentforum.blogspot.de/2014_11_01_archive.html). To
criticize him apparently means that you?re ?anti-Hindu? (and nasty). I
see no other possible explanation. And the gods know that he is
misrepresenting me too.

RZ

P.S. Sorry, but Dr. Collins? defending Malhotra looks like a rather bad
joke: ?cryptomnesia? expressing itself in rather lengthy literally
copied, but also tinkered, passages? Is that supposed to be psychology?
And stylizing him as a ?public intellectual?, comparing him to Sri
Aurobindo, Tagore and Sudhir Kakar ? no, plainly no, irrespective of how
friendly the California Institute of Integral Studies and Malhotra?s
Infinity Foundation are or how much or little money flowed:

http://beingdifferentbook.com/reviews/reviewer-al-collins-ph-d-former-core-faculty-california-institute-of-integral-studies/

http://peoplesdemocracy.in/2014/0706_pd/hindu-nationalism-united-states-report-nonprofit-groups-released



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From klaus.karttunen at Helsinki.Fi  Fri Jul 24 10:32:10 2015
From: klaus.karttunen at Helsinki.Fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 15 13:32:10 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Book
Message-ID: <4EB3AC5B-7491-49E8-97ED-EA0E73C055DD@helsinki.fi>

Dear All,

the Helsinki series is (admittedly slowly) coming close to completion. My volume was presented at the Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok:
History of Indological Studies. Edited by Klaus Karttunen. xii+264 p. Papers of the World Sanskrit Conference 11:2. Delhi, MLBD 2015. ISBN 978-81-208-3994-6

I add the list of contents.

Best,
Klaus

Klaus Karttunen
South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies
Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures
PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B)
00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418
Fax +358-(0)2941 22094
Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi

CONTENTS

Preface v

Contributors ix

Abbreviations xi

KLAUS KARTTUNEN

Introduction 1

ENRICA GARZILLI

A Sanskrit Letter Written by Sylvain L?vi in 1924 to Hemaraja ?arm? (Cultural Nationalism and Internationalism in the First Half of the 20th Century: Famous Indologists Write to the Raj Guru of Nepal ? no. 2) 17

KLAUS KARTTUNEN

The Beginnings of Indology and Modern Historiography in India 53

KLAUS KARTTUNEN

How Sanskrit Came to Sweden: The History of Swedish Indology until c. 1950 79

SERGEI D. SEREBRIANY

The Succession of Generations in Russian Sanskrit Studies (in the 19th?20th Centuries) 111

YURIY ZAVHORODNIY

The Corpus of the Ukrainian Translations of Sanskrit Texts 161

KENNETH G. ZYSK

The History of Indology in Denmark 175

KLAUS KARTTUNEN

Bibliography of the History of Indology 187

Index 243









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From audrey.truschke at gmail.com  Fri Jul 24 16:44:28 2015
From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 15 09:44:28 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Announcing Sanskrit in Persianate India, a one-day conference in Madison, WI on Oct. 22
Message-ID: <CAKq175ow1rxtYgqEAhjdK_RyZtx_7jnLXN9J6fBWhcm84zkBXA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

Some of you may be interested in the following event that Luther Obrock and
I have organized: "Sanskrit in Persianate India" is a one-day conference,
to be held on October 22, 2015 in Madison, WI (the Thursday before the
annual Madison South Asia Conference).

You can find more details about the preconference, including our line-up of
11 scholars and information about attending this event, on our website:
https://sanskritinpersianateindia.wordpress.com/.

Audrey Truschke
Mellon Postdoctoral Fellow
Department of Religious Studies
Stanford University
e- <audrey.truschke at gmail.com>mail <audrey.truschke at gmail.com> | website
<http://www.stanford.edu/~truschke/>


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From hermantull at gmail.com  Fri Jul 24 18:47:07 2015
From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 15 14:47:07 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies in Honor of Professor Edwin Gerow
Message-ID: <CAFdBLNhW63fc2m3+Yy3zckNuB6iV=RTjvdTF7kzk5VWatWYC1g@mail.gmail.com>

List Members:

?It is with great pleasure that I announce the publication of a volume of
essays written in honor of Professor Edwin Gerow.  The volume has been
published as a double issue of the International Journal of Hindu Studies,
Volume 19, Issue 1-2, April 2015.

http://link.springer.com/journal/11407/19/1/page/1

?The Table of Contents follows:

Herman Tull, ?c?ryasamarpa?am: Studies in Honor of Edwin Gerow

Herman Tull, Publications by Edwin Gerow

Francis X. Clooney, The Use of Sanskrit as a Theological Resource in the
Interpretation of Tiruv?ymo?i

Richard H. Davis, Wilkins, Kasinatha, Hastings, and the First English
Bhagavad G?t?

Madhav M. Deshpande, Pune: An Emerging Center of Education in Early Modern
Maharashtra

James L. Fitzgerald, "Saving Buddhis" in Epic Mok?adharma

Maria Heim, She Who Heard Much: Notes on Receiving, Interpreting, and
Transmitting Buddhavacana

Stephanie W. Jamison, ?le?a in the ?g Veda?: Poetic Effects in ?g Veda
X.29.1

Karen C. Lang, When the Vindhya Mountains Float in the Ocean: Some Remarks
on the Lust and Gluttony of Ascetics and Buddhist Monks

Deepak Sarma, The ?ptaguru

Herman Tull, Whence Sanskrit? (kuta? sa?sk?tamiti): A Brief History of
Sanskrit Pedagogy in the West ?

-- 

*Herman TullPrinceton, NJ *


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Fri Jul 24 20:41:09 2015
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 15 20:41:09 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <55B20D6B.7010706@uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047AD7338@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

Bravo to Robert Zydenbos on all counts --
Finally someone has hit the nail squarely on the head.

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago

________________________________________








From rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk  Fri Jul 24 20:51:32 2015
From: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk (Rohana Seneviratne)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 15 20:51:32 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] BORI Catalogue Vol. TWO (Grammar)
Message-ID: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B172EAF@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>

Dear List,

If anybody has got a handy PDF of the second volume of Descriptive Catalogue of the Government Collections of Manuscripts deposited at the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute (1938), please kindly share it with me.

http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/504518766

Unfortunately this particular volume is not available in the excellent collection of MSS catalogues Prof. Wujastyk has shared online.

Thank you very much in advance.

Best Wishes,
Rohana
------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/


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From nasadasin at gmail.com  Fri Jul 24 21:49:03 2015
From: nasadasin at gmail.com (Al Collins)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 15 13:49:03 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047AD7338@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHiOYM8AVLxv10EDDhB+a9Uy4ZfcTtxurYSBmWB+hR5jp3Q9cA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dr. Zydenbos,

Tricks of memory are not a joke, nor are they fringe psychology. We all,
every day, are subject to the recreation of our memories based in part on
our emotional state, the shifting representation of self that we have
reconstructed at that moment, etc. Malhotra is no different in this.  He
was engaged in writing a number of books simultaneously, while educating
himself in areas of study that take scholars decades to master. It?s
essentially an impossible task, except in the journalistic way that one
interviews experts, reads secondary literature, and tries to frame the work
within larger and broader cultural contexts.  You characterize Malhotra as
a ?pamphleteer,? thus assigning him to the lowest rank of journalism, but
still you make my point by understanding that he does not pretend to be a
scholar. Example: John McPhee is not a geologist, yet he managed to write
lucidly about a geologist and his area of study for the New Yorker, within
a period of a couple of years.  With the New Yorker?s fact checkers doing
their job I doubt that he plagiarized, but absent that crucial (and
extremely difficult) function I think he might well have.  And even so,
there are likely to be mistakes that only a geologist would notice.
Malhotra?s task was far larger (apparently he had only himself to check
facts) and I cannot imagine his doing it without misprision of others?
ideas and likely resort to overuse of their words. Clearly his own writings
are filled with errors of fact and interpretation. I gave up writing to him
several years ago because he never seemed able to listen to my criticisms.

You  found an embarrassing  little blurb I wrote four years ago for
Malhotra, at a time when I thought he was doing cultural work similar to my
own: comparing Western individualism and nationalism (a la Liah Greenfeld)
to Indian understandings of an interpenetrating and interactional self (I
was thinking of my own earlier work, available on academia.edu, and Fred
Smith?s analysis of avis and pravis = ?possession?).  I got carried away I
see, and the blurb is one-sided in a way that I hope my current posts are
not.  Still, it is rather insulting to suggest, as you do, that my past job
teaching East/West psychology at CIIS makes me financially indebted to
Malhotra, since he has given that institution money! Surely you jest, Dr.
Zydenbos? In fact, I taught there long before the donation and never knew,
prior to the link presented by you, that it had happened at all.

My point, which  I am afraid the tone of your response exemplifies, is that
Malhotra has brought out the ?plague? in us.  Malhotra has little respect,
that is true, but I do not sense in your post much respect for me, Koneraad
Elst or?horrors?Malhotra himself.  The Times of India piece presents a
balanced view of this mutual vilification, and is right in suggesting that
some of the comments on the RISA and Indology lists have become intemperate.
I hope I have not been insulting here, and will not be dismissed as another
crank.  What we have in the Malhotra episode is something deeply important
but hardly new, a typical case of cultural cross purposes. In comparing
Malhotra to Aurobindo,  Gandhi, etc., I do not suggest that his
intellectual or spiritual value equals theirs, but only note that they all
belong within a late- or post-colonial cultural scenario where feeling
misunderstood, angry, and combative are not only natural but inevitable.
Even justified, as the lovely lecture by Shashi Tharoor cited a couple of
days ago shows.  I wish that we could equal Tharoor?s lightness of tone,
and agree fully with others here who point to Malhotra as the proximate
author of the ill will that seems to dominate the discussion. On the other
hand, I have to agree with Malhotra that there is a case to be made for
questioning Western categories of understanding India, and suggesting that
they may contain an unconscious or tacit aggression and will to dominate
the Other (let us not forget Nietzsche, wir philologen!). It is a shame
that he has been unable to make the case without low blows or stupid faux
pas that undermine his credibility in the world he is trying to
critique.  Scholars
should not respond on that level either.  As a couple of people have noted,
what is needed here is contextualization of Malhotra?s speech acts within
the post-colonial debate without presumption that this enormously vexed
question has a generally agreed answer that allows us to dismiss Malhotra
and his circle.

Respectfully,

Al Collins, Ph.D., Ph.D.


Al Collins, Ph.D., Ph.D., BCN
Clinical and cultural psychologist
615 E. 82nd Ave. #102
Anchorage, AK 99518
907-344-3338
https://pacifica.academia.edu/AlfredCollins

On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
wrote:

> Bravo to Robert Zydenbos on all counts --
> Finally someone has hit the nail squarely on the head.
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
>
> ________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Fri Jul 24 22:21:05 2015
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 00:21:05 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_On_=C5=9Babdacaurya_(plagiarism)_and_Being_Different_(from_the_way_one_really_is)_[1]?=
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoBdicLMK9AtPaek8WgFQcZ-b1Nsny8p18TVoedGDLJR2g@mail.gmail.com>

On ?abdacaurya (plagiarism) and Being Different (from the way one really
is) [1]

Quotation from a well-known text of the Sanskrit tradition
(K?vyam?m??s? of R?ja?ekhara, ed. by C.D. Dalal and R.A. Sastry, Baroda
1934, p. 57):
????? ???????????  ???????????????????? ?
??? ???????? ????????  ?????????? ? ? ??????? ?
My English translation:
Any other case of stealing committed by a man fades with the passage of
time,
but the stealing of language (plagiarism) never fades away, not even in
one's sons
and grandsons.

By now it may have become clear who is predator, who is prey,
who is tiger, who is goat, AND who the tiger posing as a goat or sheep (no
time to fully digest
intellectually his victim) :
"It would not be feasible to swallow a large prey whole within
the predator's body. ... Ultimately, no trace remains of the prey's
own DNA ... " (RM in International Journal of Hindu Studies vol. 16,
Dec. 2012 [2013], p. 396)
So far the only "academic" piece I read of RM is this Author's response to
Symposium participants on RM's Being Different. On account of, i.a., the
important role
in this piece of the deterministic application of hybridly defined
categories such as "The West"
it has not yet inspired me to read more. The Symposium and the Author's
response have
contributed considerably to giving an academic status to the one who is now
said to claim
no higher rank than a journalist. In this 2013 Author's response we read
about
"a limitation in the English language in failing to allow for a category
that is between
"real" and "unreal"." (p. 378)
A failure to distinguish between language and logic?
An invalidation of RM's own arguments formulated in English?
Then why not write in Hindi or Sanskrit?
The PLAN to correct or circumvent, in a future, revised edition of Indra's
Net,
clear cases  of plagiarism i.e. cases of non indication of clearly borrowed
formulations and
pieces of information, is a step in the right direction AND it is a de
facto admission
to these cases of plagiarism, even if these are limited in number and even
if they are accompanied by other correctly indicated references. To
advertise this projected move as a
"satyagraha" and as "decolonization"
(
http://www.firstpost.com/living/decolonising-indology-rajiv-malhotra-wont-follow-rules-set-west-2356234.html
)
is an insult both to Mahatma Gandhi's "satyagraha" AND to the long tradition
of original thinkers and serious scholars of India FROM the Vedic rishi
Dirghatamas
whom I identify as the first author to clearly "quote" different opinions
on metaphysical
issues (RV 1.164.12 and my discussion in JAOS 120.4 2000) TO (at least)
Daya Krishna.
Methods of referring to quoted or borrowed material are inevitably
different depending on whether an intellectual culture is mainly
based on orality or on written transmission of knowledge, both in the
"West" (eg Havelock 1986) and in "India" as I pointed out at several
places (eg Journal of Indian Philosophy 30 [2003] p 475 footnote 5).

Jan Houben



*Jan E.M. HOUBEN*

Directeur d??tudes

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

*?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques

CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

www.ephe.fr


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Fri Jul 24 22:26:43 2015
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 00:26:43 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_On_=C5=9Babdacaurya_(plagiarism)_and_Being_Different_(from_the_way_one_really_is)_[2]?=
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoDP05wB9=hB=TZLx6x1hPa0quHSq8eikT2twF1vnmFXrg@mail.gmail.com>

On ?abdacaurya (plagiarism) and Being Different (from the way one really
is) [2]

Companies and corporations in trouble occasionally appoint (expensive)
external advisors: their purpose is to facilitate sometimes difficult
decisions in order to make the enterprise as a whole again "healthy" and
profitable.
The external advisor's personal strategy is usually to keep the top
management happy and convinced. Whether the measures proposed by the advisor
were helpful or counterproductive (or even fake) will usually become
clear after they have received their remuneration and when it is too late
to turn back.
>From recently published statements as in the "firstpost" referred to
earlier, one may infer that RM aspires to such position as "external
advisor" to
"Indological India Inc." by giving encouraging verbal advise (basically ok)
AND by
adding counterproductive de facto advise: (a) a little plagiarism does no
harm (can
be washed away if discovered) and (b) stop interacting with scholars from
abroad
(I propose to label this latter move the NAVEL U-TURN). The best
universities in
the world in all other domains of science and scholarship have the exact
opposite
policies:
(a) eradicate even seemingly innocent forms of plagiarism; (b) exchange
knowledge, discussions, scholars with top universities elsewhere in the
world.
It is not difficult to predict the long-term consequences if such
counterproductie
advise -- as if advising to a car factory to neglect basic mechanical laws
and technology --
presented as the way to corporate success, is really put into practice.
The conglomerate of issues presented by RM is definitely original and
strategically
suitable to his proposed projects.
One of these, the relative neglect of serious and reliable Indian scholars,
has
been recognized by authors such as Laury Patton and, earlier, by Jan Gonda
who in his contributions to the History of Indian Literature always made
extensive effort to refer to all relevant modern indological authors on an
issue, western, eastern, indian.
To parade the washing away of plagiarism as a "decolonization" is an insult
also
to these, and all current, serious scholars of India.

Quotation from a well-known text of the Sanskrit tradition
(K?vyam?m??s? of R?ja?ekhara, ed. by C.D. Dalal and R.A. Sastry, Baroda
1934, p. 57):
????? ???????????  ???????????????????? ?
??? ???????? ????????  ?????????? ? ? ??????? ?
My English translation:
Any other case of stealing committed by a man fades with the passage of
time,
but the stealing of language (plagiarism) never fades away, not even in
one's sons
and grandsons.



*Jan E.M. HOUBEN*

Directeur d??tudes

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

*?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques

CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

www.ephe.fr


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From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 06:28:26 2015
From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 11:58:26 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two Lectures by Prof Ashok Aklujkar in Manipal Centre	for Philosophy and Humanities
Message-ID: <650B1428-14DF-43BB-8F23-8C6F7046EF97@gmail.com>

Dear All,

The Manipal Centre for Philosophy and Humanities is organizing two lecture by Professor Ashok Aklujkar. I am herewith enclosing two posters mentioning the details of the two lectures. All are cordially invited.

Best wishes.

Mrinal Kaul



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From dchakra at hotmail.de  Sat Jul 25 08:34:19 2015
From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 14:04:19 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Read the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv Malhotra and his critics are wrong about plagiarism
Message-ID: <BAY179-W662EFFA50783C8CF490CFDD9800@phx.gbl>


WAR ABOUT WORDSRead the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv Malhotra and his critics are wrong about plagiarismThe West doesn't have a copyright on proper attribution. Here's what Sanskrit commentators and anthologists have to say on the subject.Eric M Gurevitch  ? Today ? 09:15 amhttp://scroll.in/article/743119/rajiv-malhotra-and-his-critics-are-both-wrong-sanskrit-texts-considered-plagiarism-a-crime



?This body
is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.? ?
Anandamayi Ma 

?Inside
every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.? -
Paracelsus





 		 	   		  


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From hr at ivs.edu  Sat Jul 25 09:14:33 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 11:14:33 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Read the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv Malhotra and	his critics are wrong about plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <BAY179-W662EFFA50783C8CF490CFDD9800@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1437815702-4499755.42054862.ft6P9EYeE007711@rs143.luxsci.com>

Please note that in this article, Gurevitch cites the first explicit statement against plagiarism from a 10th century work by Somadeva Suri. That is fairly late in the history of Sanskrit literature. Does this suggest that for thousands of years before, attitudes were different?

Howard

> On Jul 25, 2015, at 10:34 AM, Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti <dchakra at hotmail.de> wrote:
> 
> 
> WAR ABOUT WORDS <http://scroll.in/tags/38807/war-about-words>
> Read the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv Malhotra and his critics are wrong about plagiarism
> The West doesn't have a copyright on proper attribution. Here's what Sanskrit commentators and anthologists have to say on the subject.
> Eric M Gurevitch <http://scroll.in/authors/2343>  ? Today ? 09:15 am
> http://scroll.in/article/743119/rajiv-malhotra-and-his-critics-are-both-wrong-sanskrit-texts-considered-plagiarism-a-crime <http://scroll.in/article/743119/rajiv-malhotra-and-his-critics-are-both-wrong-sanskrit-texts-considered-plagiarism-a-crime>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.? ? Anandamayi Ma 
> ?Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.? - Paracelsus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Sat Jul 25 10:11:19 2015
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 12:11:19 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Malhotra and plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <CAHiOYM8AVLxv10EDDhB+a9Uy4ZfcTtxurYSBmWB+hR5jp3Q9cA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55B360C7.5040706@uni-muenchen.de>

Dear Dr. Collins,

(I do not know why you placed McKim Marriott and another person in the
"Cc" line of your post ? to make me an object of anthropological
enquiry? Anyhow, welcome aboard, and here goes:)

Al Collins wrote:

> Dear Dr. Zydenbos,
>
> Tricks of memory are not a joke, nor are they fringe psychology. [...]
>

I do not doubt that memory can play tricks; but you are actually asking
us, in the face of the quite hard evidence to the contrary (which I have
already given, in the same post to which you refer. I assume you have
read it), to believe that Mr Malhotra's plagiarism is such a 'trick of
memory'. This suggests that you have very little respect for the
intelligence of your readers.

> You characterize Malhotra as a ?pamphleteer,? thus assigning him to
> the lowest rank of journalism, but still you make my point by
> understanding that he does not pretend to be a scholar.
>

(1) Faulty conclusion (my appreciation of his writings is one thing,
what he pretends to be or not to be is something else). (2) Even if he
pretends to be, e.g., a grocer or a dentist, that would be irrelevant.

> Malhotra?s task was far larger (apparently he had only himself to
> check facts)
>

Excuse me, but what does that mean? (That he is not sure of facts? That
he need not check facts?) I only have myself, and I assume this goes for
most persons reading these lines.

> Clearly his own writings are filled with errors of fact and
> interpretation. I gave up writing to him several years ago because he
> never seemed able to listen to my criticisms.
>

Very good. And yet you take him seriously and demand that I, or all of
us, respect him?

> You  found an embarrassing  little blurb I wrote four years ago for
> Malhotra, [...]
>

(Actually, it was sent to me.)

> I got carried away I see, and the blurb is one-sided in a way that I
> hope my current posts are not.  Still, it is rather insulting to
> suggest, as you do, that my past job teaching East/West psychology at
> CIIS makes me financially indebted to Malhotra, since he has given
> that institution money!
>

If you disagree with your earlier assessment of Malhotra's writing and
find it embarrassing, you can perhaps request him to remove it from his
website. Who knows, he may oblige, though he obviously finds the
"embarrassing little blurb" and the connection to that institute to be
of value. Have you told him why you find it embarrassing?

Your defence of Malhotra (?cryptomnesia? etc.) is so counter-rational
and so clearly tolerant of injustice, that one naturally wonders about
its reasons. As for "irrespective of how friendly the California
Institute of Integral Studies and Malhotra?s Infinity Foundation are or
how much or little money flowed", I will leave it to persons who know
the nature of the relationship between the Institute and the Foundation
better to decide to what extent Malhotra's financing has undermined the
rationality and academic standards that one would like to see in scholars.

No, I am not claiming that you are "financially indebted". I am saying
that there is an indication of an amicable relationship, however
constituted, that may explain both your "embarrassing little blurb" and
that equally embarrassing bit (not four years old, but fresh, and
repeated) about "cryptomnesia". Your defence and glorification of
Malhotra (if Nobel Prize awardee Tagore, to whom you refer and who to my
knowledge was no plagiarist, were buried, he would be turning in his
grave) is embarrassing in any case, irrespective of whatever ties or
feelings of obligation you or any institution with which you have or had
dealings may or may not have had to him.

> My point, which  I am afraid the tone of your response exemplifies, is
> that Malhotra has brought out the ?plague? in us.  
>

And what does that mean? Does "plague" mean "identifying plagiarism"? Or
"identifying systematic misrepresentation and vilification"?

> Malhotra has little respect, that is true, but I do not sense in your
> post much respect for me, Koneraad Elst or?horrors?Malhotra himself. 
>

Respect is something that I fundamentally give every person, until and
unless the person behaves in such a manner that s/he loses my respect,
partly or wholly. My memory does not trick me concerning an on-list
confrontation between me and Mr Malhotra already several years ago.
Since then I have been one of his straw men and whipping-boys
(propagandists need those), and he has systematically misrepresented me
in the same manner as others of his ilk do. They do this for reasons
best known to themselves.

I shall decide whom I will or will not respect, thank you. I am free not
to respect Malhotra if he calls me "anti-Hindu", for which he has no
justification. (Well, probably he has, something on the level of his now
internationally famous absence of quotation marks in Sanskrit, for which
the columnist in The Hindu called him "illiterate". By which I mean: he
surely has no justification that can be taken seriously.)

> The Times of India piece presents a balanced view of this mutual
> vilification,
>

Times of India? (I don't recall any such piece from the Times of India
being discussed here. I find no reference either. Or maybe my checking
of facts was sloppy, because I have only myself? <grin> )

?To vilify?, according to Webster?s New World dictionary (I checked the
fact, even though I had only myself!), means to defame, and to defame
means ?to attack or injure the [...] honor of by false and malicious
statements?. If I, or anybody here on this list, has made factually
false statements about Mr Malhotra, then please point them out.

Malhotra defames / vilifies me when he calls me an "anti-Hindu person".
That is where I draw a line. No respect for him any more. Zero. Unless
he apologizes publicly and in a big, unambiguous way (but as long as he
thinks he needs his straw men and whipping-boys, he surely won't).

I think this matter with you, Dr. Collins Ph.D., Ph.D., is closed. And
now I am going to enjoy my weekend.

RZ






From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 25 10:18:52 2015
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 10:18:52 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Read the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv Malhotra and	his critics are wrong about plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <1437815702-4499755.42054862.ft6P9EYeE007711@rs143.luxsci.com>
Message-ID: <352820963.2144181.1437819532177.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

I'm currently translating the Brahma Sutras from a somewhat new perspective. I seek to understand how they might have been viewed around the time of their original composition, as opposed to the time of Shankara's commentary, which is centuries later. As is common, there's some disagreement as to the date of the composition, ranging from 500 BCE to 400 BCE.

A cursory search of my translation to date finds at least 17 examples where the author cites previous authors. This seems to contradict Malhotra's claim, at least in a general sense, even if they do not specifically use "iti". Since Malhotra seems to side with the traditionalists in terms of dating, an earlier dating of the Brahma Sutras would only further weaken his argument.

Please note that I am not particularly interested in joining a side (or sides!) in the debate currently raging here, although I follow it with great interest. I only seek to address a point of fact.

Many other texts from this period also "cite" previous authors, such as in Caraka. But I will leave that to scholars more knowledgeable about those texts, like Dominik.

Here are the some of the examples from the Brahma Sutras.

I.2.59. Jaimini
I.2.60. Asmarathya.
I.2.61. Badari.
I.2.62. Jaimini.
I.4.20 Asmarathya.
I.4.21 Audulomi.
I.4.22 Kasakritsna.
III.1.9 Karshnajini
III.1.11 Badri.
III.2.40 Jaimini
III.2.41 Badarayana
III.4.2 Jaimini.
III.4.18 Jaimini
III.4.19 Badarayana
III.4.40 Jaimini
III.4.44 (469) Atreya.
III.4.45 Audolomi

Best,

Dean Anderson


      From: Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu>
 To: Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti <dchakra at hotmail.de> 
Cc: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info> 
 Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2015 2:44 PM
 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Read the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv Malhotra and his critics are wrong about plagiarism
   
Please note that in this article, Gurevitch cites the first explicit statement against plagiarism from a 10th century work by Somadeva Suri. That is fairly late in the history of Sanskrit literature. Does this suggest that for thousands of years before, attitudes were different?
Howard

   


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From hr at ivs.edu  Sat Jul 25 11:30:26 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 13:30:26 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Read the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv Malhotra and	his critics are wrong about plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <1471215011.2116051.1437819434055.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1437823862-1747309.04945682.ft6PBURFT010444@rs143.luxsci.com>

Thank you for this excellent reference.
hr

> On Jul 25, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm currently translating the Brahma Sutras from a somewhat new perspective. I seek to understand how they might have been viewed around the time of their original composition, as opposed to the time of Shankara's commentary, which is centuries later. As is common, there's some disagreement as to the date of the composition, ranging from 500 BCE to 400 BCE.
> 
> A cursory search of my translation to date finds at least 17 examples where the author cites previous authors. This seems to contradict Malhotra's claim, at least in a general sense, even if they do not specifically use "iti". Since Malhotra seems to side with the traditionalists in terms of dating, an earlier dating of the Brahma Sutras would only further weaken his argument.
> 
> Please note that I am not particularly interested in joining a side (or sides!) in the debate currently raging here, although I follow it with great interest. I only seek to address a point of fact.
> 
> Many other texts from this period also "cite" previous authors, such as in Caraka. But I will leave that to scholars more knowledgeable about those texts, like Dominik.
> 
> Here are the some of the examples from the Brahma Sutras.
> 
> I.2.59. Jaimini
> I.2.60. Asmarathya.
> I.2.61. Badari.
> I.2.62. Jaimini.
> I.4.20 Asmarathya.
> I.4.21 Audulomi.
> I.4.22 Kasakritsna.
> III.1.9 Karshnajini
> III.1.11 Badri.
> III.2.40 Jaimini
> III.2.41 Badarayana
> III.4.2 Jaimini.
> III.4.18 Jaimini
> III.4.19 Badarayana
> III.4.40 Jaimini
> III.4.44 (469) Atreya.
> III.4.45 Audolomi
> 
> Best,
> 
> Dean Anderson
> 
> 
> From: Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu>
> To: Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti <dchakra at hotmail.de> 
> Cc: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info> 
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2015 2:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Read the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv Malhotra and	his critics are wrong about plagiarism
> 
> Please note that in this article, Gurevitch cites the first explicit statement against plagiarism from a 10th century work by Somadeva Suri. That is fairly late in the history of Sanskrit literature. Does this suggest that for thousands of years before, attitudes were different?
> 
> Howard
> 



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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 25 11:30:16 2015
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 11:30:16 +0000
Subject: References to enlightenment as "remembering" oneself?
Message-ID: <1564767225.2123130.1437823816954.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Can anyone point me to references to enlightenment as "remembering" oneself?

For example, Bhagavad-Gita chapter 18 verse 73: "naSTo mohaH smRtir labdhA".

Best,

Dean


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From hr at ivs.edu  Sat Jul 25 11:37:03 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 13:37:03 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] References to enlightenment as "remembering" oneself?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1865.1437823990.11424.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <1437824282-5230547.88940179.ft6PBb4sm016156@rs143.luxsci.com>

Bhagavata-purana 4.28.53

Vishnu, in the guise of a brahmana, says to Vaidarbhi, whom he is enlightening:

api smarasi cAtmAnam

?And do you remember the self??


> On Jul 25, 2015, at 1:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>
> Subject: References to enlightenment as "remembering" oneself?
> Date: July 25, 2015 at 1:30:16 PM GMT+2
> To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
> Reply-To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>
> 
> 
> Can anyone point me to references to enlightenment as "remembering" oneself?
> 
> For example, Bhagavad-Gita chapter 18 verse 73: "naSTo mohaH smRtir labdhA".
> 
> Best,
> 
> Dean
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 11:43:43 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 13:43:43 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Read the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv Malhotra and his critics are wrong about plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1854.1437819716.11424.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CfVkCvqoBdx5-hiA=7jpDiBOfPGPB6xNyB1pD7po-9WWg@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 July 2015 at 12:22, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

>
> Many other texts from this period also "cite" previous authors, such as in
> Caraka. But I will leave that to scholars more knowledgeable about those
> texts, like Dominik.
>

The majority of early Sanskrit authors in all ??stras and genres cited
their predecessors and understood and used? the methods of quotation and
citation well.  Not quite as we do today, but in their own perfectly
acceptable ways.  In fact, in a manner similar to that of classical authors
in the European tradition (see, e.g., Reynolds & Wilson, *Scribes and
Scholars*, *passim*.).

Malhotra's assertion that "there are no quotation marks in Sanskrit" was a
knee-jerk "the dog ate my homework" kind of self defence.  I expect he
regrets it, and knows better, in truth.  It's nonsense and not worth
discussing further, really.

As an example of serious work, the ongoing research project "Fragments of
Indian Philosophy
<http://pf.fwf.ac.at/en/research-in-practice/project-finder?search[what]=Fragments+of+Indian+Philosophy&search[promotion_category_id]=&search[call]=&search[project_number]=&search[decision_board_ids]=&search[project_title]=&search[lead_firstname]=&search[lead_lastname]=&search[research_place_kind]=&search[institute_name]=&search[start_date]=&search[end_date]=&search[grant_years][]=&search[status_id]=&search[science_discipline_id]=&search[per_page]=10#search-results>"
of my colleague and friend Dr Ernst Prets at the Austrian Academy of
Sciences is based on the discovery and evaluation of quotations in Sanskrit
philosophical works.  In his project application, Dr Prets noted,

The main aim of the proposed project is to make an attempt at
comprehensively collecting and analyzing the quotations and paraphrases
from and allusions to the texts of the S??khya, Ny?ya, Vai?e?ika, M?m??s?,
and Lok?yata traditions with special reference to early epistemology, logic
and dialectics. Another major goal of the project will be the systematic
search for fragments of texts in the philosophical Sanskrit works of the
Jainas, specifically in the works of the Digambara Jainas.

In addition, the project will investigate the Indian convention of quoting
and referring to earlier works or views as an element of composition in
other branches of scientific literature.
?Sincerely,
Dominik Wujastyk?


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From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de  Sat Jul 25 12:00:55 2015
From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 14:00:55 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] References to enlightenment as "remembering" oneself?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1865.1437823990.11424.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <20150725140055.Horde.5VI-U1ASXjtojlvmANkUv0-@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>

There is a number of relevant passages in the already published parts  
of the Mok?op?ya (I-V), e.g.:

smar?tm?na? prabuddho 'si (III.136.34)

an?dimat para? brahma smaraty ?tm?nam ?tman? (IV.41.43)

na vismaraty avirata? sv?tm?na? pr?j?adh?s tath? (V.62.16)

You may find the references here:
http://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/sequence_987.ahtml

Best,
Roland Steiner






From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 12:34:59 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 14:34:59 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Read the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv Malhotra and his critics are wrong about plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <8FAC6BCA-BB9C-44F4-B92B-919B4F99D5F9@mail.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cd-nAHC0n-Ch08f48p+2CFyLYFn+NxJCQxbx3qn7yA=uA@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com>
Date: 25 July 2015 at 14:34
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Read the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv Malhotra
and his critics are wrong about plagiarism
To: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>


Dear Dominik,

On Jul 25, 2015, at 4:43 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

Malhotra?s assertion that "there are no quotation marks in Sanskrit"


It has been more than a week since I pointed out on the Indology forum
itself that Malhotra had in mind a written symbol indicating quotation, not
about a marker in speech or reproduction of speech such as iti. Note his
words ?in its character set?.

Et tu, Dominik?

You should publicly correct yourself. It is not proper to quote someone by
dropping an important part of his sentence and suggest that he/she is
terribly ignorant just because one disagrees with him/her, unless one
wishes to join the rank of Steve Farmer et al.

ashok


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From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 13:26:33 2015
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 06:26:33 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Read the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv	Malhotra and his critics are wrong about plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cd-nAHC0n-Ch08f48p+2CFyLYFn+NxJCQxbx3qn7yA=uA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <98129479-AC7E-4668-BEEC-898119A8E1B9@gmail.com>

Colleagues,

I admire Dominik for his immediate public correction of an earlier remark of his. However, if I had known that he was going to forward my communication to the List, I would have made its wording a little bit more grammatical and not allowed it to retain its ?note-to-a-friend? form. Please delete ?about? from ?not about a marker? and change ?his sentence? to ?his/her sentence?. It would also have been better if I had alerted Dominik with some such heading as ?Not for forwarding to the List, at least not yet.?. Sorry for the extra reading you all had to do.

a.a. 




From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 14:25:08 2015
From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 19:55:08 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two Lectures by Prof Ashok Aklujkar in Manipal Centre	for Philosophy and Humanities
Message-ID: <C366A500-A739-4D08-BBAD-D263E5D0B413@gmail.com>

Some of you complained that the posters containing the details of the lectures were not visible. I am forwarding them again as PDF files. Apologies for this.

Dear All,

The Manipal Centre for Philosophy and Humanities is organizing two lecture by Professor Ashok Aklujkar. I am herewith enclosing two posters mentioning the details of the two lectures. All are cordially invited.

Best wishes.

Mrinal Kaul

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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 16:45:20 2015
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 22:15:20 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Read the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv Malhotra and his critics are wrong about plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <98129479-AC7E-4668-BEEC-898119A8E1B9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qLC-6os1PyHfP2t7sJzXDL-7QteTB4Rrus8XJ2cLRNkdg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

There has been some interesting discussion on what should be regarded as
plagiarism and what should not come into the category. Will colleagues
enlighten if there is any trace of taking something from someone without
acknowledgement in the following citations.

?Die Sonne war doch allzusehr eine Potenz f?r sich, als dass die Auffassung
von ihr als Feuer erheblichere Bedeutung h?tte haben k?nnen ? H.Oldenberg *Die
religion des Veda* 1894;1917:109

?The solar aspect of Agni?s nature is not often mentioned, the sun being
too individual a phenomenon to be generally conceived as a form of fire?.
A.A. Macdonell  *Vedic Mythology*1897:93 (1963repr.Varanasi)

?But this side (i.e. the solar side DB)? of the nature of Agni is little
referred to; the sun was too great and prominent a deity to be treated
merely as a form of Agni? A.B.Keith *RPVU* HOS 31,32; 1925: 156.

As far as I know till now nobody drew attention to the remarkable
similarity in language and idea

Best

DB

On Sat, Jul 25, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Colleagues,
>
> I admire Dominik for his immediate public correction of an earlier remark
> of his. However, if I had known that he was going to forward my
> communication to the List, I would have made its wording a little bit more
> grammatical and not allowed it to retain its ?note-to-a-friend? form.
> Please delete ?about? from ?not about a marker? and change ?his sentence?
> to ?his/her sentence?. It would also have been better if I had alerted
> Dominik with some such heading as ?Not for forwarding to the List, at least
> not yet.?. Sorry for the extra reading you all had to do.
>
> a.a.
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 16:48:36 2015
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 22:18:36 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Read the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv Malhotra and his critics are wrong about plagiarism
In-Reply-To: <CABEB9qLC-6os1PyHfP2t7sJzXDL-7QteTB4Rrus8XJ2cLRNkdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABEB9q+b4Nbn_zAKHtFr67oApyoBSBia6P9Ra5F0TowOn==foQ@mail.gmail.com>

Please read

*Die Religion des Veda*

*DB*

On Sat, Jul 25, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> There has been some interesting discussion on what should be regarded as
> plagiarism and what should not come into the category. Will colleagues
> enlighten if there is any trace of taking something from someone without
> acknowledgement in the following citations.
>
> ?Die Sonne war doch allzusehr eine Potenz f?r sich, als dass die
> Auffassung von ihr als Feuer erheblichere Bedeutung h?tte haben k?nnen ?
> H.Oldenberg *Die religion des Veda* 1894;1917:109
>
> ?The solar aspect of Agni?s nature is not often mentioned, the sun being
> too individual a phenomenon to be generally conceived as a form of fire?.
> A.A. Macdonell  *Vedic Mythology*1897:93 (1963repr.Varanasi)
>
> ?But this side (i.e. the solar side DB)? of the nature of Agni is little
> referred to; the sun was too great and prominent a deity to be treated
> merely as a form of Agni? A.B.Keith *RPVU* HOS 31,32; 1925: 156.
>
> As far as I know till now nobody drew attention to the remarkable
> similarity in language and idea
>
> Best
>
> DB
>
> On Sat, Jul 25, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Colleagues,
>>
>> I admire Dominik for his immediate public correction of an earlier remark
>> of his. However, if I had known that he was going to forward my
>> communication to the List, I would have made its wording a little bit more
>> grammatical and not allowed it to retain its ?note-to-a-friend? form.
>> Please delete ?about? from ?not about a marker? and change ?his sentence?
>> to ?his/her sentence?. It would also have been better if I had alerted
>> Dominik with some such heading as ?Not for forwarding to the List, at least
>> not yet.?. Sorry for the extra reading you all had to do.
>>
>> a.a.
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 18:58:10 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 15 00:28:10 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Read the Sanskrit texts: Why both Rajiv Malhotra and his critics are wrong about plagiarism
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eZuAPBxbDxL+zNvHseRVE1Ek_kq2AQ7EQHcUs3s6MLOkQ@mail.gmail.com>

Productive and useful contributions are flowing in the form of
citing examples of quoting /citing /referencing instances from ancient
Sanskrit literature.
Prof. Dominik Wujastyk brought to us the great news of a great project of
"comprehensively collecting and analyzing the quotations and paraphrases
from and allusions to the texts of ancient Sanskrit
literature" "investigate the Indian convention of quoting and referring to
earlier works or views as an element of composition in other branches of
scientific literature." by Dr Ernst Prets at the Austrian Academy of
Sciences.

It might be in response to RM's alleged assertion to the contrary.

But the sentence

 "Sanskrit does not even have quotation marks in its character set."

 that is virally making rounds from RM's

<
http://www.newslaundry.com/2015/07/15/rajiv-malhotra-says-those-accusing-him-of-plagiarism-are-really-out-to-silence-his-voice/
>

is in fact part of a paragraph:

The second level is whether there is omission of references in a merely
*technical* sense. This is where customs for acknowledgment differ,
depending on whether it is an academic book (which mine are not), which
readership is viewing it, and so forth. I wish to point out that in ancient
Indian traditions, references were required (as in ancient Sanskrit texts)
but the Western conventions did *not* apply. Sanskrit does not even have
quotation marks in its character set. Yet traditional scholars made clear
when they referred to someone else?s thoughts. So in the worst case, I
might be accused of violating a *specific* technical convention of the
style and form of acknowledging sources. But certainly no plagiarism can be
said at the level of the intention and spirit of my work.

It is, in fact, part of a compound of two sentences :

*Sanskrit does not even have quotation marks in its character set. Yet
traditional scholars made clear when they referred to someone else?s
thoughts.*


Did the two sentences from the paragraph:

1. I wish to point out that in ancient Indian traditions, references were
required (as in ancient Sanskrit texts)....

2. Yet traditional scholars made clear when they referred to someone else?s
thoughts.

probably missed the attention of scholars ?

Even if they did,  triggering of all these wonderful contributions on
quoting /citing /referencing instances from ancient Sanskrit literature, by
that probable missed attention is doing good to Indological studies.

Thanks to all the scholars who brought in the ancient Indian views on
plagiarism and examples of  Indian convention of quoting and referring to
earlier works.

N
-- 

Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 19:05:22 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 15 00:35:22 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject)
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eYV84hEBDCX9o86EAN4dFSydZ2y+zqbSZJ8jujWc2gAEg@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for the bad final verification of my post before posting.. Please read

probably missed the attention of scholars ?
as

miss the attention of scholars?

For clarity, it is

Did the two sentences from the paragraph:

1. I wish to point out that in ancient Indian traditions, references were
required (as in ancient Sanskrit texts)....

2. Yet traditional scholars made clear when they referred to someone else?s
thoughts.

 miss the attention of scholars ?

Thanks for your understanding.

-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 20:45:39 2015
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 22:45:39 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] text reuse
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4JUm1QTJFfkE-HiP1xdPmw_S_yv9D=sPD4+ri8P9KgH8A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

In the hope of gaining something academically useful out of what otherwise
might (have already) become a sort of mud slinging fight, I would like to
mention the now increasingly well studied area of "text reuse."
Of course, this is in part behind the project of E. Prets, and it is
conceptually behind plagiarism detection software etc., but it should be
noted that there is considerable work being done with regard to Classical
Studies, and to my knowledge (I'm not sure if this has been published yet)
on Arabic World Histories. I myself am interested in this approach to what
I see as the modularity of Buddhist scriptural literature, although the
notion of modular composition is not exactly the same as text reuse as
generally understood.
For a general overview of 'historical text reuse', one might see as a start
http://etrap.gcdh.de/?page_id=332
I mean here only to point out an additional resource (not the website in
particular, but the notion) to frame this discussion in what may be a
helpful direction.

Best, Jonathan


-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html


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From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu  Sat Jul 25 23:25:01 2015
From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 18:25:01 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd:  text reuse
In-Reply-To: <61671560-3A7D-403B-BFFD-BD4DC4FE4B39@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <3464E0DB-C017-4C21-B988-1733E1C47D55@uts.cc.utexas.edu>

> Sorry, I intended to send this to the list but initially sent it only to Jonathan. Here it is.



> I have not entered this discussion yet, but given that we have turned to the fruitful discussion of plagiarism in the ancient world (not just India), a book that many of you may find interesting and illumination is Ehrman's work on early Christian literature. It is not on plagiarism per se (which passes of others' work as one's own) but the opposite, forgery, (which tries to pass of one's own work as that of someone else).
> 
> Bart Ehrman, "Forgery and Counterforgery: The Use of Literary Deceit in Early Christian Polemics" (OUP, NY, 2013). 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Patrick Olivelle
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 25, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Dear Friends,
>> 
>> In the hope of gaining something academically useful out of what otherwise might (have already) become a sort of mud slinging fight, I would like to mention the now increasingly well studied area of "text reuse." 
>> Of course, this is in part behind the project of E. Prets, and it is conceptually behind plagiarism detection software etc., but it should be noted that there is considerable work being done with regard to Classical Studies, and to my knowledge (I'm not sure if this has been published yet) on Arabic World Histories. I myself am interested in this approach to what I see as the modularity of Buddhist scriptural literature, although the notion of modular composition is not exactly the same as text reuse as generally understood.
>> For a general overview of 'historical text reuse', one might see as a start http://etrap.gcdh.de/?page_id=332
>> I mean here only to point out an additional resource (not the website in particular, but the notion) to frame this discussion in what may be a helpful direction.
>> 
>> Best, Jonathan
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> J. Silk
>> Leiden University
>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>> The Netherlands
>> 
>> copies of my publications may be found at
>> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 



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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Sun Jul 26 04:17:22 2015
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 15 22:17:22 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Sanskrit-English_Dictionary,_Wilson=E2=80=99s_still_useful?=
Message-ID: <CAPAZekaM2TCRSYw=yyvSG3xTkQe74xKzQCbNWPni6K-wXMV3ow@mail.gmail.com>

The Monier-Williams Sanskrit-English dictionary and its relation to the
preceding B?htlingk/Roth Sanskrit-German dictionary were brought up in
recent posts. Before either of these was the very early pioneering
Sanskrit-English dictionary by Horace Hayman Wilson. Although it has long
ago fallen out of use, it is still useful in one important way: it gives
the traditional etymologies of the Sanskrit words. By chance I learned this
from the dust jacket of a 1979 reprint of it by Nag Publishers, Delhi. It
said they undertook this reprint at the request of Dr. Rasik Vihari Joshi
of Delhi University because it is the only dictionary that gives the
etymologies.


The Nag Publishers reprint is of the 1900 edition, which they re-titled *A
Sanskrit-English Dictionary*, and to which they added Wilson?s Preface from
the first edition of 1819. From this 1819 Preface we learn that Wilson?s
material for this dictionary was translated from a voluminous manuscript
Sanskrit dictionary compiled by pandits under the final superintendence of
Raghumani Bhattacharya and completed in 1809. The title of Wilson?s
original 1819 edition, now available for free download from Google Books,
reflects this: *A Dictionary, Sanscrit and English: Translated, Amended and
Enlarged, from an Original Compilation Prepared by Learned Natives for the
College of Fort William*.


As an example etymology, we may look at what Wilson?s dictionary gives for
*s?k?in*, which Patrick McCartney had asked about on July 12. It uses the
abbreviation ?E.? for etymology, and gives the Sanskrit words in devan?gar?
script, which I here romanize and italicize: ?E. *sa* for *saha* with, (in
presence of,) *ak?i* the eye, *ini* aff.? Those of us who have not yet
memorized P??ini will now have to turn to a reference book to determine
what the *ini* affix is. Two good ones for this are *A Dictionary of
Sanskrit Grammar*, by Kashinath Vasudev Abhyankar and J. M. Shukla (Baroda:
Oriental Institute,1961; 2nd rev. ed. 1977), and *Dictionary of P??ini*, by
Sumitra Mangesh Katre, 3 vols. (Poona: Deccan College, 1968-1969).


These reference books tell us that *ini* is the *k?t* (i.e., primary) affix
or suffix *-in*, and we are referred to P??ini 3.2.93 and 3.2.156-157. This
explains the *-in* ending on *s?k?in*. We now have to look up *ak?i* in
Wilson?s dictionary to find the root. It gives: ?*a?* to pervade, and *si*
affix.? Again using the P??ini dictionaries, we find that *si* is the
*un??i* affix or suffix *-si* or *-ksi*, and we are referred to
*Un??i-s?tra* 3.155 or P??ini 7.2.9. In brief, the root *a?* plus -*si*
becomes *ak?i*. This example was a bit complex, but I have found Wilson?s
dictionary very helpful for determining the formation of words whose
etymology is not obvious. Of course, most of us will also need an English
translation of P??ini?s *A???dh?y?* to consult, such as those by ?r??a
Chandra Vasu or by Sumitra M. Katre.


Best regards,


David Reigle

Colorado, U.S.A.


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From samparkdev at gmail.com  Sun Jul 26 04:28:32 2015
From: samparkdev at gmail.com (Diwakar singh)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 15 09:58:32 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject)
Message-ID: <CAEr6jMVHq0_WtPAcbEDR+985ximbwDZmD_6QBMouYhUvYd=5Yg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Members,
 I am looking for a PhD thesis submitted by Minoru  Hara at Harvard
 'Materials for the study of Pasupata Saivism' in 1966. Though i am not
sure but still its unpublished. Is it possible to access the thesis in pdf
form? Also i will appreciate if some one could send me the pdf of
Pasupata sutram, with Panchartha-Bhasya of Kaundinya. Translated with an
introd. on the history of Saivism in India [by] Haripada Chakraborti

Best Regards
Diwakar Kumar Singh
University of Delhi


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From jacob at fabularasa.dk  Sun Jul 26 09:15:18 2015
From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 15 11:15:18 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd:  text reuse
In-Reply-To: <3464E0DB-C017-4C21-B988-1733E1C47D55@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <c531f41edd54e96a7951dfe7a823862c@fabularasa.dk>

Back in 2011 I wrote my BA on the subject of six unidentified palm 
leaves found in the papyri collection of Istituto
Papirologico "G. Vitelli" in Florence. The leaves were written in the 
Sinhalese script and consisted of Sinhalese headlines on various 
Ayurvedic topics followed by Sanskrit verses relevant to the various 
topics. I was quite surprised to find that many, if not all, of the 
verses seemed to be made up of wholes, halves, and even quarts of verses 
taken from the medical literature and rearranged without regard to - or 
mention of - their prior context (I identified verses from 
Carakasa?hit?, Su?rutasa?hit?, A????gasa?graha, A????gah?dayasa?hit?, 
and Garu?apur??a). At the time I noticed three trends in the approach of 
the author/scribe:

a) polyphony: back-to-back quotation of verses or parts of verses from 
various sources on the same subject (e.g. quotations from multiple 
sources on different kinds of meat);

b) fragmentation: splitting up of individual verses or groups of verses 
into separate parts quoted under different headlines in different parts 
of the manuscript (e.g. parts of a section of verses from a single 
source on different kinds of water appearing under multiple headlines 
relevant to water);

c) recontextualization: rearrangement of verses or parts of verses in 
contexts different from the original context resulting in a change of 
syntax and/or semantics (e.g. a verse originally used to describe water 
from the Ganges used in the manuscript to describe the life-giving 
properties of water in general).

It should be noted that the palm leaves in question were originally part 
of a larger manuscript about which nothing is known. As such, it may 
simply have been the private notes of an Ayurvedic doctor. Still, the 
silent splitting up and rearrangement of known verses might be taken as 
an example of a special art of "quotational sampling" (useful, perhaps, 
as a means of creative innovation within the confines of a fixed textual 
tradition).

Best,
Jacob

Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
PhD student
Department of Indology
University of Copenhagen
Denmark


Patrick Olivelle skrev den 2015-07-26 01:25:
>> Sorry, I intended to send this to the list but initially sent it
>> only to Jonathan. Here it is.
> 
>> I have not entered this discussion yet, but given that we have
>> turned to the fruitful discussion of plagiarism in the ancient world
>> (not just India), a book that many of you may find interesting and
>> illumination is Ehrman's work on early Christian literature. It is
>> not on plagiarism per se (which passes of others' work as one's own)
>> but the opposite, forgery, (which tries to pass of one's own work as
>> that of someone else).
>> 
>> Bart Ehrman, "Forgery and Counterforgery: The Use of Literary
>> Deceit in Early Christian Polemics" (OUP, NY, 2013).
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Patrick Olivelle
>> 
>> On Jul 25, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear Friends,
>>> 
>>> In the hope of gaining something academically useful out of what
>>> otherwise might (have already) become a sort of mud slinging
>>> fight, I would like to mention the now increasingly well studied
>>> area of "text reuse."
>>> Of course, this is in part behind the project of E. Prets, and it
>>> is conceptually behind plagiarism detection software etc., but it
>>> should be noted that there is considerable work being done with
>>> regard to Classical Studies, and to my knowledge (I'm not sure if
>>> this has been published yet) on Arabic World Histories. I myself
>>> am interested in this approach to what I see as the modularity of
>>> Buddhist scriptural literature, although the notion of modular
>>> composition is not exactly the same as text reuse as generally
>>> understood.
>>> For a general overview of 'historical text reuse', one might see
>>> as a start http://etrap.gcdh.de/?page_id=332 [1]
>>> I mean here only to point out an additional resource (not the
>>> website in particular, but the notion) to frame this discussion in
>>> what may be a helpful direction.
>>> 
>>> Best, Jonathan
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> J. Silk
>>> Leiden University
>>> 
>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
>>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>>> 
>>> The Netherlands
>>> 
>>> copies of my publications may be found at
>>> 
>>> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html [2]
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info [3] (where you can change your list
>>> options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://etrap.gcdh.de/?page_id=332
> [2] http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html
> [3] http://listinfo.indology.info
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing 
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)






From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 26 11:32:48 2015
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (dhaval patel)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 15 17:02:48 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Release of Sanskrit Heritage Engine software
In-Reply-To: <D8DEFDE4-2B58-4237-8C9A-D124761B7D0D@inria.fr>
Message-ID: <CADSGPzVVh7uXwUwZoBtfgNg8EJ3A=55uKbCiXv6xiZjEKaHF-w@mail.gmail.com>

Respected sir,
I tried for full 3 days with the instruction set given by you with the
machine.
I have not been able to set it up properly yet.
The most difficult part is setting up config file.

If you can provide a video tutorial about how to install the whole process
de novo, it would be highly useful.

I don't know whether it is the setup fault or apache2 fault.
After entering a word and pressing enter, the binary executable gets
downloaded instead of being executed.


On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 8:20 PM, G?rard Huet <Gerard.Huet at inria.fr> wrote:

> At the occasion of the World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok, a public
> distribution of the Sanskrit Heritage Engine software has been released,
> together with a user's reference manual for the various tools.
> This version allows using the tools as Web services on your own
> workstation, provided it runs some version of Unix, such as Linux or Mac
> OSX.
> The user manual  <http://sanskrit.inria.fr/manual.html>tells how to
> download the software and install it. Please report any difficulty or
> anomaly.
> Best regards,
> G?rard Huet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Anand
www.sanskritworld.in


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From LubinT at wlu.edu  Sun Jul 26 13:36:05 2015
From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 15 13:36:05 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] PasupataSutra
Message-ID: <D1DA59FA.1F0F3%lubint@wlu.edu>

ocr file, 60MB:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ba2af58vy3catt8/Hara.1966.diss-PasupataSutra-ocr.pdf?dl=0

not ocr?d, 30MB:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nwxwk5vqwrn66te/Hara.1966.diss-PasupataSutra-cropped.pdf?dl=0


From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of Diwakar singh <samparkdev at gmail.com<mailto:samparkdev at gmail.com>>
Date: Sunday, July 26, 2015 at 12:28 AM
To: "INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>" <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject)

Dear Members,
 I am looking for a PhD thesis submitted by Minoru  Hara at Harvard  'Materials for the study of Pasupata Saivism' in 1966. Though i am not sure but still its unpublished. Is it possible to access the thesis in pdf form? Also i will appreciate if some one could send me the pdf of
Pasupata sutram, with Panchartha-Bhasya of Kaundinya. Translated with an introd. on the history of Saivism in India [by] Haripada Chakraborti

Best Regards
Diwakar Kumar Singh
University of Delhi


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From c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk  Sun Jul 26 16:38:44 2015
From: c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk (Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 15 16:38:44 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_new_commentary_on_P=C4=81rthas=C4=81rathi_Mi=C5=9Bra?=
Message-ID: <5622B5FA1B14F3439A3ABC85C5A09EA823B93C78@EX-1-MB1.lancs.local>

Dear list,
I would like to bring this publication to your kind attention.
Best wishes,
Ram-Prasad
________________________________

Title - ??strad?pik? - Tarka P?da of P?rthas?rathi Mi?ra, with Commentary in Sanskrit and Notes in English.

Authors - R.Mani Dravid and Sharda Narayanan

Date - 2015
Publisher - Ambika Aksharavali, Chennai. (email : ambika.aksharavali at gmail.com<mailto:ambika.aksharavali at gmail.com>)
ISBN  978-81-930812-0-4

Size- 25 cm x 18 cm, 399 pages.
Foreword,Acknowledgements, Table of Contents, Text with Commentary and Notes, List of Topics in Text, Chronology of Some Important Writers in Sastra, Select Bibliography, Index.
Price - US $ 25. Please add $5 for postage.
Bank Details - City Union Bank Limited, Mandaveli Branch, Chennai
Acc Number 510909010014767, IFC Code CIUB 0000036.



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From kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de  Sun Jul 26 16:51:52 2015
From: kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 15 18:51:52 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] text reuse
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4JUm1QTJFfkE-HiP1xdPmw_S_yv9D=sPD4+ri8P9KgH8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55B51028.1020402@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de>

Just a few additional pointers closer to the field of Indology:
contributions to a panel on the reuse of texts in Indian Philosophy have
recently been published in the Journal of Indian Philosophy 43/2-3
(http://link.springer.com/journal/10781/43/2/page/1).

Elisa Freschi's introduction is published Open Access and can be
downloaded here:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10781-014-9232-9.

And while we're on the subject, the forthcoming issue 36-37 of the
Journal of the International Association of Buddhist Studies contains a
section on "Authors and Editors in the ?Literary ?Traditions of Asian
Buddhism", guest-edited by Cathy Cantwell, Jowita Kramer, Robert Mayer,
and Stefano Zacchetti. Several papers published in that section touch
upon issues of intertextuality and authorship.

With best wishes,

Birgit Kellner

Am 25.07.2015 um 22:45 schrieb Jonathan Silk:
> Dear Friends,
> 
> In the hope of gaining something academically useful out of what
> otherwise might (have already) become a sort of mud slinging fight, I
> would like to mention the now increasingly well studied area of "text
> reuse." 
> Of course, this is in part behind the project of E. Prets, and it is
> conceptually behind plagiarism detection software etc., but it should be
> noted that there is considerable work being done with regard to
> Classical Studies, and to my knowledge (I'm not sure if this has been
> published yet) on Arabic World Histories. I myself am interested in this
> approach to what I see as the modularity of Buddhist scriptural
> literature, although the notion of modular composition is not exactly
> the same as text reuse as generally understood.
> For a general overview of 'historical text reuse', one might see as a
> start http://etrap.gcdh.de/?page_id=332
> I mean here only to point out an additional resource (not the website in
> particular, but the notion) to frame this discussion in what may be a
> helpful direction.
> 
> Best, Jonathan
> 
> 
> -- 
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> 2311 BZ Leiden
> The Netherlands
> 
> copies of my publications may be found at
> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 


-- 
----------
Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Chair of Buddhist Studies
Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context - The
Dynamics of Transculturality"
University of Heidelberg
Karl Jaspers Centre
Vo?stra?e 2, Building 4400
D-69115 Heidelberg
Phone: +49(0)6221 - 54 4301 (Office Ina Chebbi: 4363)
Fax: +49(0)6221 - 54 4012





From nasadasin at gmail.com  Sun Jul 26 21:19:36 2015
From: nasadasin at gmail.com (Al Collins)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 15 13:19:36 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
Message-ID: <CAHiOYM-PqHVzZ7+_WQcP6sZHjRWcXqTKKo5ipJ8PyfRvB-_wAw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list,

I do not wish to belabor this point further, but Dr. Zydenbos has
misunderstood it once again and so I assume it
needs clarification. Otherwise, I agree with him that our business is at an
end.

The main thrust of my argument has been that we need to contextualize
Malhotra within a post-colonial discourse or psychological/cultural
struggle that is far larger than the individual projects of one wealthy
diasporic Indian. And also broader than the question of plagiarism. In
comparing Malhotra's situation to that of Tagore, Aurobindo, et al, I mean
only to suggest that all of these persons were struggling to extract an
authentic Indian vision of life from its entrapment within a
Christian/European perspective that radically misunderstood (even while at
times idealizing) it. It is not controversial to note that Indology has at
times been part of this misunderstanding. Malhotra's concepts of
"digestion" of Indian ideas by the West, and the need to "reverse gaze" are
not new to him, and have been explored by Indian intellectuals and artists
since the beginning of the Bengali Renaissance. (They are in various ways
also issues for other colonized cultures.) Perhaps Malhotra is only a twig
on the tree where Aurobindo and Tagore are massive branches, but still it
is the same organism to which they all belong.

Al Collins

Al Collins, Ph.D., Ph.D.

https://pacifica.academia.edu/AlfredCollins


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From BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk  Mon Jul 27 09:11:14 2015
From: BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk (Simon Brodbeck)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 15 09:11:14 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] text reuse
In-Reply-To: <55B51028.1020402@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de>
Message-ID: <AM3PR02MB053450B585FFE4F185240A408C8E0@AM3PR02MB0534.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>

There was also this issue of "Religions of South Asia" in 2012, guest-edited by Jacqueline Suthren Hirst, entitled "Tradition and the Reuse of Indic Texts":

http://www.equinoxpub.com/journals/index.php/ROSA/issue/view/1267

The link is to the table of contents.

All the best, from Simon Brodbeck.

________________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Birgit Kellner <kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de>
Sent: 26 July 2015 17:51:52
To: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] text reuse

Just a few additional pointers closer to the field of Indology:
contributions to a panel on the reuse of texts in Indian Philosophy have
recently been published in the Journal of Indian Philosophy 43/2-3
(http://link.springer.com/journal/10781/43/2/page/1).

Elisa Freschi's introduction is published Open Access and can be
downloaded here:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10781-014-9232-9.

And while we're on the subject, the forthcoming issue 36-37 of the
Journal of the International Association of Buddhist Studies contains a
section on "Authors and Editors in the ?Literary ?Traditions of Asian
Buddhism", guest-edited by Cathy Cantwell, Jowita Kramer, Robert Mayer,
and Stefano Zacchetti. Several papers published in that section touch
upon issues of intertextuality and authorship.

With best wishes,

Birgit Kellner

Am 25.07.2015 um 22:45 schrieb Jonathan Silk:
> Dear Friends,
>
> In the hope of gaining something academically useful out of what
> otherwise might (have already) become a sort of mud slinging fight, I
> would like to mention the now increasingly well studied area of "text
> reuse."
> Of course, this is in part behind the project of E. Prets, and it is
> conceptually behind plagiarism detection software etc., but it should be
> noted that there is considerable work being done with regard to
> Classical Studies, and to my knowledge (I'm not sure if this has been
> published yet) on Arabic World Histories. I myself am interested in this
> approach to what I see as the modularity of Buddhist scriptural
> literature, although the notion of modular composition is not exactly
> the same as text reuse as generally understood.
> For a general overview of 'historical text reuse', one might see as a
> start http://etrap.gcdh.de/?page_id=332
> I mean here only to point out an additional resource (not the website in
> particular, but the notion) to frame this discussion in what may be a
> helpful direction.
>
> Best, Jonathan
>
>
> --
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> 2311 BZ Leiden
> The Netherlands
>
> copies of my publications may be found at
> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>


--
----------
Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Chair of Buddhist Studies
Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context - The
Dynamics of Transculturality"
University of Heidelberg
Karl Jaspers Centre
Vo?stra?e 2, Building 4400
D-69115 Heidelberg
Phone: +49(0)6221 - 54 4301 (Office Ina Chebbi: 4363)
Fax: +49(0)6221 - 54 4012

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





From dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de  Mon Jul 27 09:56:04 2015
From: dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de (Dragomir Dimitrov)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 15 11:56:04 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] NEW BOOK: Indian Lexicography (Vogel)
Message-ID: <55B60034.3553.A242B58@dimitrov.staff.uni-marburg.de>

NEW BOOK ANNOUNCEMENT

Indian Lexicography
Revised edition

By Claus Vogel. Edited by J?rgen Hanneder and Martin Straube.

M?nchen 2015
Indologica Marpurgensia, Band VI
P. Kirchheim Verlag
Englische Broschur, 148 S.
ISBN: 978-3-87410-145-5
Preis: EUR 25,00


SUMMARY: 

The monograph "Indian Lexicography" by the late Professor Claus Vogel 
(1933?2012), who taught indology at the University of Bonn, contains a 
literary-historical survey of the Indian lexicographical literature in Sanskrit. 
This book appeared first in 1979 in the "History of Indian Literature" Series 
and has remained since then the unsurpassed standard work on this subject.   

In the course of time the author had been collecting additional notes and 
corrections which he initially planned to publish separately in a small booklet. 
When the "Indian Lexicography" went out of print, however, the publishers 
of the "Indologica Marpurgensia" Series proposed to him to prepare instead 
a revised edition of his work. Professor Vogel happily consented, and as a 
result now an updated authorized version of this standard book has been 
released.

For more details, see here:
http://www.uni-marburg.de/fb10/iksl/indologie/fachgebiet/im


________________________________________
   
   Dr. habil. Dragomir Dimitrov
   Indologie und Tibetologie
   Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
   Deutschhausstr. 12
   D-35032 Marburg
   Germany
   
   Tel.: +49 6421 28 24640, +49 178 9190340
   E-mail: dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de
   http://www.uni-marburg.de/indologie
________________________________________





From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Jul 27 13:18:19 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 15 15:18:19 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <CAHiOYM-PqHVzZ7+_WQcP6sZHjRWcXqTKKo5ipJ8PyfRvB-_wAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcLVO1V72Qt-PEuyHhtUqVkkJZPHQ1OiwyhR7UqJuJaOg@mail.gmail.com>

The email by Collins and especially his line ?"?It is not
controversial to note that Indology has at times been part of this
misunderstanding?," prompts me to reflect again on what we mean by
?"?Indology?" and whether Collins' damning assertion could be valid.?

For two centuries, Indologists have been amongst those scholars and
historians who have made the greatest contributions to the
exploration and understan??ding of pre-modern India. ? In a way, this
is a circular statement.  People who call themselves indologists did
this work; and those who did this kind of work are commonly called
indologists by others. ? By "indologist" I mean those who have
learned Indian languages, including classical languages, who have
spent significant parts of their lives reading Indian literature in
Indian languages, and deepening their understanding of the
extraordinary world of early Sanskrit, Tamil and other cultures.  By
"indologist" I include anyone of any skin colour, religion or
nationality, living anywhere in the world.  By "indologists" I mean
people who have discovered manuscripts of works like the ??
Buddhacarita and the ?? Saundarananda, the ?? Arthasastra, the ??
Bhelasamhita, ?Rajatarangini, ? the ?? Yogasutravivarana, works that
were thought completely lost, but have been recovered and published
and made available as part of the growing mosaic of ancient Indian
literature.  By "indologists" I mean people like Burrow, who was the
first to write grammars of two Dravidian languages, and who
deciphered the ?Niya ? Kharoshti ?? documents and published a grammar of
their language and a ?? translation of their content.  Or Rajendralal
Mitra or Kielhorn, or Peterson or Haraprasad Shastri or PV Kane or
PK Gode or Boehtlingk or Roth? or Edgerton and Sukthankar. I mean
people like Prinsep who was the first person in more than a
millennium to make it possible for anyone in the world to read the
original words of King Ashoka.  Or V. Raghavan and his successors who
revealed the manuscript wealth of India.  Look, I'm rambling a bit, and I
expect many far better examples could be found?, and one could
include many more contributors from the ?20th century.?

In this sense, it ??*is* indeed very controversial to say that ?"?Indology
has at times been part of this misunderstanding.?"? Indology, if
understood as ?outlined? above, is not the problem, it's the solution.
To gain a clearer and truer understanding of India's past, what else
would you want than people who learn the languages, who learn the
??stras, and who spend decades immersing themselves in the world of
ancient Indian culture?, stripping away their preconceptions, trying
to understand ancient India in its own terms and in its own
context??  That's what indology means? and what it does? .

Who would you rather see exploring India's past and interpreting
India's past to itself and to the world?  Computer scientists?
Businessmen?  Physicists?  Are those the most appropriate
qualifications for doing indology?   ?(Think about this the other way
round, for a moment.  Should a Sanskritist take over CERN? Or become
Economics Minister in Greece?)?

Think what our understanding of India would be like if you wiped
away the work of indologists since the sixteenth century (I'm
?starting from da Orta), if you erased all the discoveries I mention
above, and all the thousands of others I didn't mention?  What would
you have?  Really.  I mean it.  What do you think you would you have
left?  What would Mr Malhotra have for his bedside table?   Not much.

It is obtuse to attempt to frame the devoted practitioners of a
profession as the very people who are most hostile to the object of
their profession.  The opposite is true.

Of course we all understand perfectly well that some Indian
intellectuals have been and are engaged in a program to explore
India's present, past, and position in the world, including the
postcolonial predicament.  The same can be said of intellectuals in
many countries, including other countries like America, that threw
off colonial power.  But American cultural historians don't spend
all their time drumming up hatred for ?Indian? scholars of American
history and culture, just because they're? Indian.  Why would they?

Broadly speaking, indology applies to Indian sources historical and
textual methodologies that were developed in Europe from Herodotus
onwards, with many developments from the time of Isaac Causabon
onwards (c. 1600, his overturning of the antiquity of the Corpus
Hermeticum through careful study of philosophical vocabulary).
These methods have become the tools of the modern and globalized
historical method.  To reject the use of these methods would be
Luddite, like refusing to travel in a riksha in Delhi because the
internal combustion engine was invented in Europe.

The India revealed by indological research *is* different from the
India of the contemporary imaginary, both Indian and international.
But that is because ancient India *was* a very different place from
contemporary India.  If a contemporary Hindu fails to recognize the
India he knows and loves in the discoveries of indology, it is
because ancient India was truly a foreign country, not because
indological methods have lied.  But it is a country well worth
visiting.

Best,
Dominik Wujastyk





On 26 July 2015 at 23:19, Al Collins <nasadasin at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear list,
>
> I do not wish to belabor this point further, but Dr. Zydenbos has
> misunderstood it once again and so I assume it
> needs clarification. Otherwise, I agree with him that our business is at an
> end.
>
> The main thrust of my argument has been that we need to contextualize
> Malhotra within a post-colonial discourse or psychological/cultural
> struggle that is far larger than the individual projects of one wealthy
> diasporic Indian. And also broader than the question of plagiarism. In
> comparing Malhotra's situation to that of Tagore, Aurobindo, et al, I mean
> only to suggest that all of these persons were struggling to extract an
> authentic Indian vision of life from its entrapment within a
> Christian/European perspective that radically misunderstood (even while at
> times idealizing) it. It is not controversial to note that Indology has at
> times been part of this misunderstanding. Malhotra's concepts of
> "digestion" of Indian ideas by the West, and the need to "reverse gaze" are
> not new to him, and have been explored by Indian intellectuals and artists
> since the beginning of the Bengali Renaissance. (They are in various ways
> also issues for other colonized cultures.) Perhaps Malhotra is only a twig
> on the tree where Aurobindo and Tagore are massive branches, but still it
> is the same organism to which they all belong.
>
> Al Collins
>
> Al Collins, Ph.D., Ph.D.
>
> https://pacifica.academia.edu/AlfredCollins
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From hr at ivs.edu  Mon Jul 27 13:32:37 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 15 15:32:37 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CcLVO1V72Qt-PEuyHhtUqVkkJZPHQ1OiwyhR7UqJuJaOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1438003982-3187.69656493.ft6RDWclu028823@rs143.luxsci.com>

Despite my profound agreement with Dominik on the great good that Indology has done, I struggle with the statement below, since it seems to claim for all Indologists at all times a moral and methodological purity that history clearly belies. Please note that Al Collins said ?at times?, a phrase that leaves open and debatable the frequency and severity of problems within Indology. 

Best,
Howard


> On Jul 27, 2015, at 3:18 PM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> In this sense, it ??*is* indeed very controversial to say that ?"?Indology has at times been part of this misunderstanding.?"? 



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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Jul 27 14:19:34 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 15 16:19:34 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <1438003982-3187.69656493.ft6RDWclu028823@rs143.luxsci.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cf58mb6ykcspXO_q_Gkx_0gv3kaFzqpfJEXLauEH05FgQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I get it.  There are always bad eggs.  But I deliberately thought it
was worth stating the best case without qualification, because I read "at
times" as a rhetorical sleight-of-hand that allowed a strong accusation to
remain, nevertheless, deniable.
Dominik


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From hr at ivs.edu  Mon Jul 27 14:31:00 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 15 16:31:00 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <CAOuG4CYHjBGw-ZZrC8oHv2CjTUrxLStUFRaQti_53b9E3ZWZ7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1438007523-5439231.74257132.ft6REV1ko014307@rs143.luxsci.com>

Thank you Phillip. I agree.
Sincere best wishes,
Howard

> On Jul 27, 2015, at 4:27 PM, Philipp Maas <philipp.a.maas at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Howard,
> I think that writing each other mails starting with "please note" will lead to nothing. Moreover, discussing the intent of Dominik's mail will probably also not lead to much. My interpretation was based on his statement "Indology is not the problem, it is the solution" (quoted from memory). 
> 
> In the end, we are in the middle of the Orientalism discourse that the two of us cannot bring to an end. My personal view is that indology or orientalist scholarship was frequently misrepresented in this discourse, but I shall not try to convince you of this. 
> 
> I would rather suggest to keep a friendly tone in our discussions, to which admittedly I myself could have contributed more in my impulsive reaction to your mail.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Philipp
> 
> 2015-07-27 16:14 GMT+02:00 Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu <mailto:hr at ivs.edu>>:
> 1. Please note that ?Indology?, as an unqualified term, would imply those engaged in it.
> 
> 2. Dominik seemed to take it that way since he gave many example of individual Indologists at different historical times, rather than appeal, as you do, to a general academic discipline and its guiding principles, however well or poorly followed in specific instances.
> 
> Best,
> Howard
> 
>> On Jul 27, 2015, at 4:09 PM, Philipp Maas <philipp.a.maas at gmail.com <mailto:philipp.a.maas at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Please note that Dominik said "Indology" and not "all Indologists at all times".
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Philipp
>> 
>> 2015-07-27 15:32 GMT+02:00 Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu <mailto:hr at ivs.edu>>:
>> Despite my profound agreement with Dominik on the great good that Indology has done, I struggle with the statement below, since it seems to claim for all Indologists at all times a moral and methodological purity that history clearly belies. Please note that Al Collins said ?at times?, a phrase that leaves open and debatable the frequency and severity of problems within Indology. 
>> 
>> Best,
>> Howard
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 27, 2015, at 3:18 PM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com <mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> In this sense, it ??*is* indeed very controversial to say that ?"?Indology has at times been part of this misunderstanding.?"? 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Dr. Philipp A. Maas
>> Universit?tsassistent
>> Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde
>> Universit?t Wien
>> Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1
>> A-1090 Wien
>> ?sterreich
>> univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas <http://univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Philipp A. Maas
> Universit?tsassistent
> Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde
> Universit?t Wien
> Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1
> A-1090 Wien
> ?sterreich
> univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas <http://univie.academia.edu/PhilippMaas>



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From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com  Mon Jul 27 14:48:36 2015
From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 15 16:48:36 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pdf Request
Message-ID: <CAMOCTf9tivW4iJ1KpVUxtGE+6VOE5d2WxLN=rP7TrHmegj=tTQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear indologists,

I'm looking for a pdf of

Kunal Chakrabarti, 2001. *Religious Process: The Pur??as and the Making of
a Regional Tradition*. Oxford University Press.

which I was unable to find in Italian libraries.

Best,
Paolo

-- 
Paolo E. Rosati
Oriental Archaeologist
PhD candidate in "Civilisations of Asia & Africa"
Section: South Asia
Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies (ISO)
'Sapienza' University of Rome
paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it
paoloe.rosati at gmail.com
Mobile: (+39) 3387383472
Skype: paoloe.rosati


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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Mon Jul 27 17:06:03 2015
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 15 19:06:03 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <1438003982-3187.69656493.ft6RDWclu028823@rs143.luxsci.com>
Message-ID: <55B664FB.1090301@uni-muenchen.de>

Forgive me, Dr. Resnick ? also known as Hridayananda Dasa Goswami
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hridayananda_Dasa_Goswami) who is trying
to "Indian-ize the world"
(http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2014/06/16/hare-krishna-gets-evangelical/32487)
? but what you are doing is really nit-picking. In any larger group of
people you
will find kooks and weirdoes as well as splendid persons.

As for Dr. Collins' post, which he sent in yesterday, I understand
perfectly what
he was saying: that the better mere Indologists deal too much with
explicit facts,
and do not sufficiently entertain politically correct fantasies of the
kind which
political actors at the right end of the spectrum like to exploit. For
which reason
Indology as an academic discipline needs to be discredited, however mildly.

Had Dr. Collins been a good Indologist, he might not have got the
context wrong. All this talk about the need for reversing the gaze, taking
back things, etc. does not apply in the real world in which Mr Malhotra
writes
about quotation marks in a "Sanskrit character set" (which one? I thought
Sanskrit was traditionally written in the script of the region where it was
written...). I have already stated the facts in my post sent last Friday.
If somebody refuses to read that, or if that somebody is incapable of
digesting those simple statements, then I fear I cannot help that person.

RZ


Howard Resnick wrote:

> Despite my profound agreement with Dominik on the great good that
> Indology has done, I struggle with the statement below, since it
> seems to claim for all Indologists at all times a moral and
> methodological purity that history clearly belies. Please note that >
Al Collins said ?at times?, a phrase that leaves open and debatable >
the frequency and severity of problems within Indology.
>
> Best, Howard






From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Mon Jul 27 17:16:01 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 15 22:46:01 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eaVPhJ7deqTPt+R0jw_S5j7d2GT-R__Lw-fkaVSChPw6w@mail.gmail.com>

>But American cultural historians don't spend all their time drumming up
hatred for ?Indian? scholars of American history and culture, >just because
they're? Indian.  Why would they?

I hope it is not intended to communicate that  'Indian cultural historians
spend all their time drumming up hatred for American scholars of Indian
history and culture', or circularly 'those who spend all their time
drumming up hatred for American scholars of Indian history and culture are
called Indian cultural historians'.

Just as American scholars of Indian history and culture are called American
Indologists, I think ?Indian? scholars of American history and culture can
be called Indian Americologists. Is there a field called 'Americology'? Are
there Indian Americologists?

Since I do not know if the word Indian Americologists exists or not, let me
use the word ?Indian? scholars of American history and culture only. May I
know how many of these are there? How big or small is their group? Is their
influence on the American education on America comparable in proportion to
the influence of western Indologists on Indian education of India?

Is the size of the group of Egyptian Americologists anywhere close to the
size of group of American and/or European Egyptologists?

Thought these questions may help understand some Indian perspectives about
certain portions of western Indology that create inconveniences/problems to
different sections and/or aspects of Indian society, empathetically.


-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Mon Jul 27 19:53:56 2015
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 15 21:53:56 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eaVPhJ7deqTPt+R0jw_S5j7d2GT-R__Lw-fkaVSChPw6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEgrCzBMxf_+F664i_6Pu=9B9j_zF5kw4Wd5ChipRou1EZ43Vw@mail.gmail.com>

Many Ramayanas ---

Many Indologies.

Selection of *central *research themes. Financing.

Colonialists & traditional law, linguistics, lexicography; Nazis & Aryan
heritage; Soviets & Indian atheism. And so on.

Best,

Artur Karp

2015-07-27 19:16 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:

> >But American cultural historians don't spend all their time drumming up
> hatred for ?Indian? scholars of American history and culture, >just because
> they're? Indian.  Why would they?
>
> I hope it is not intended to communicate that  'Indian cultural historians
> spend all their time drumming up hatred for American scholars of Indian
> history and culture', or circularly 'those who spend all their time
> drumming up hatred for American scholars of Indian history and culture are
> called Indian cultural historians'.
>
> Just as American scholars of Indian history and culture are called
> American Indologists, I think ?Indian? scholars of American history and
> culture can be called Indian Americologists. Is there a field called
> 'Americology'? Are there Indian Americologists?
>
> Since I do not know if the word Indian Americologists exists or not, let
> me use the word ?Indian? scholars of American history and culture only. May
> I know how many of these are there? How big or small is their group? Is
> their influence on the American education on America comparable in
> proportion to the influence of western Indologists on Indian education of
> India?
>
> Is the size of the group of Egyptian Americologists anywhere close to the
> size of group of American and/or European Egyptologists?
>
> Thought these questions may help understand some Indian perspectives about
> certain portions of western Indology that create inconveniences/problems to
> different sections and/or aspects of Indian society, empathetically.
>
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From hr at ivs.edu  Mon Jul 27 20:20:09 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 15 22:20:09 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <55B664FB.1090301@uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <1438028463-6017374.43111421.ft6RKKBZ4015996@rs143.luxsci.com>

Thank you Dr. Zydenbos for illustrating my point about human frailities in an academic discipline.

Unfortunately, you got the Indianzing backward. Here is my quote from the article you sent us:

?We were trying to do something which could not be done, and that is trying to Indian-ize the world in the name of Krishna,? Resnick said. 
In other words, as the article shows, I was rejecting the notion that a spiritual practice, originally coming from India, requires Indianization in terms of adopting Indian ethnic and cultural features associated with the tradition.

The issue of insider-outsider perspectives, the advantages and disadvantages of each, is a serious issue that has gained significant interest among many thoughtful scholars. My concern with meta-epistemological issues as they manifest in insider and outsider perspectives, and subsequently impact Indology, and the general study of sacred traditions, is not really ?nit-picking.?  Philosophy is like psychology: even if you don?t study it, you have one. 

All the best,
Howard


> On Jul 27, 2015, at 7:06 PM, Robert Zydenbos <zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
> 
> Forgive me, Dr. Resnick ? also known as Hridayananda Dasa Goswami
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hridayananda_Dasa_Goswami) who is trying
> to "Indian-ize the world"
> (http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2014/06/16/hare-krishna-gets-evangelical/32487)
> ? but what you are doing is really nit-picking. In any larger group of
> people you
> will find kooks and weirdoes as well as splendid persons.
> 
> As for Dr. Collins' post, which he sent in yesterday, I understand
> perfectly what
> he was saying: that the better mere Indologists deal too much with
> explicit facts,
> and do not sufficiently entertain politically correct fantasies of the
> kind which
> political actors at the right end of the spectrum like to exploit. For
> which reason
> Indology as an academic discipline needs to be discredited, however mildly.
> 
> Had Dr. Collins been a good Indologist, he might not have got the
> context wrong. All this talk about the need for reversing the gaze, taking
> back things, etc. does not apply in the real world in which Mr Malhotra
> writes
> about quotation marks in a "Sanskrit character set" (which one? I thought
> Sanskrit was traditionally written in the script of the region where it was
> written...). I have already stated the facts in my post sent last Friday.
> If somebody refuses to read that, or if that somebody is incapable of
> digesting those simple statements, then I fear I cannot help that person.
> 
> RZ
> 
> 
> Howard Resnick wrote:
> 
>> Despite my profound agreement with Dominik on the great good that
>> Indology has done, I struggle with the statement below, since it
>> seems to claim for all Indologists at all times a moral and
>> methodological purity that history clearly belies. Please note that >
> Al Collins said ?at times?, a phrase that leaves open and debatable >
> the frequency and severity of problems within Indology.
>> 
>> Best, Howard
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 



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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Mon Jul 27 21:57:14 2015
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 15 23:57:14 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eaVPhJ7deqTPt+R0jw_S5j7d2GT-R__Lw-fkaVSChPw6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55B6A93A.8060608@uni-muenchen.de>

Nagaraj Paturi wrote:

> [...]
> Just as American scholars of Indian history and culture are called
> American Indologists, I think ?Indian? scholars of American history and
> culture can be called Indian Americologists. Is there a field called
> 'Americology'? Are there Indian Americologists?

I hope there are. If not, I can imagine it would very good to have some.

Many years back, an Indian sociologist (Hiremallur K. Ishwaran of
Dharwad, Karnataka) came to Leiden in the Netherlands and did research
on changes in Dutch family life during the previous 100 years. An
anthropologist from Leiden told me that his big discovery was that there
were no substantial changes ? and he could convincingly prove it.

I myself did not go through that work, but I have it on the authortiy of
the anthropologist that the Dutch colleagues in the social sciences were
so convinced that so much had changed during the previous 100 years that
there 'must have been' fundamental changes in family life, the way the
generations within a family dealt with each other etc., as well. Because
Ishwaran came as an outsider to Dutch society, he could perceive things
from a distance in such a way as his Dutch colleagues could not. His
research was solid, he got his doctorate, married a Dutchwoman and
proceeded to Canada, where he became professor of sociology at York
University, Toronto. He wrote on Indian society too (e.g., interesting
studies of his Lingayat community), but his field of enquiry was
unlimited. In his native Dharwad he is something of a local hero, and a
college has been named in his memory.

A methodically solid Americology / Europology in India would be a highly
interesting thing, valuable not only to India but also abroad.

RZ

-- 
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
Institute of Indology and Tibetology
University of Munich





From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Mon Jul 27 22:51:19 2015
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 00:51:19 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <1438028463-6017374.43111421.ft6RKKBZ4015996@rs143.luxsci.com>
Message-ID: <55B6B5E7.3050101@uni-muenchen.de>

Howard Resnick wrote:

> [...]
> Unfortunately, you got the Indianzing backward. Here is my quote from
> the article you sent us:
> 
> ?We were trying to do something which could not be done, and that is
> trying to Indian-ize the world in the name of Krishna,? Resnick said. 

My impression is that you are still trying to Indianize, but partially;
not so much in externalities, but in thought, Weltanschauung. Otherwise
there would be no point in your Krishna West.

And here I want to point out what can be read in one of the comments to
that online article:

"This kind of "Hindu evangelism" is what scholar-practitioner Rajiv
Malhotra refers to as a "U-Turn." These people benefit enormously from
Hinduism and basically proceed to turn their backs on it while they go
mainstream. They should be exposed for the frauds that they are."

I only know this from this online comment by a person I do not know, and
I have no idea just where and how Malhotra has stated that people like
you are 'frauds'. (But I think we recognize the style.) If this is
correct, then it looks like he wants to 'take back' Hare Krishna too.
(So better take care.)

> [...] My concern with
> meta-epistemological issues as they manifest in insider and outsider
> perspectives, and subsequently impact Indology, and the general study of
> sacred traditions, is not really ?nit-picking.?

Sorry, I think we have a little misunderstanding here. My remark about
'nit-picking' referred to your reaction to Dominik in the thread, which
I left quoted at the bottom of my post. But I see that Dominik himself
already responded in the same spirit.

> All the best,

RZ


-- 
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
Department f?r Asienstudien
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU)






From hr at ivs.edu  Tue Jul 28 04:33:13 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 06:33:13 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <55B6B5E7.3050101@uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <1438058042-8259372.99209448.ft6S4XEIA014343@rs143.luxsci.com>

Ironically, when Malhotra argues that a non-believer, or non-practitioner, is unqualified to analyze a religious or spiritual tradition, many on this list respond with an almost vicious attack on him. Yet when someone on the List claims that a spiritual practioner, and advocate, cannot be a good academic scholar, apriori, this apparently is acceptable.

If this is indeed the case, I will respectfully withdraw from the List.

Best,
Howard

> On Jul 28, 2015, at 12:51 AM, Robert Zydenbos <zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
> 
> Howard Resnick wrote:
> 
>> [...]
>> Unfortunately, you got the Indianzing backward. Here is my quote from
>> the article you sent us:
>> 
>> ?We were trying to do something which could not be done, and that is
>> trying to Indian-ize the world in the name of Krishna,? Resnick said. 
> 
> My impression is that you are still trying to Indianize, but partially;
> not so much in externalities, but in thought, Weltanschauung. Otherwise
> there would be no point in your Krishna West.
> 
> And here I want to point out what can be read in one of the comments to
> that online article:
> 
> "This kind of "Hindu evangelism" is what scholar-practitioner Rajiv
> Malhotra refers to as a "U-Turn." These people benefit enormously from
> Hinduism and basically proceed to turn their backs on it while they go
> mainstream. They should be exposed for the frauds that they are."
> 
> I only know this from this online comment by a person I do not know, and
> I have no idea just where and how Malhotra has stated that people like
> you are 'frauds'. (But I think we recognize the style.) If this is
> correct, then it looks like he wants to 'take back' Hare Krishna too.
> (So better take care.)
> 
>> [...] My concern with
>> meta-epistemological issues as they manifest in insider and outsider
>> perspectives, and subsequently impact Indology, and the general study of
>> sacred traditions, is not really ?nit-picking.?
> 
> Sorry, I think we have a little misunderstanding here. My remark about
> 'nit-picking' referred to your reaction to Dominik in the thread, which
> I left quoted at the bottom of my post. But I see that Dominik himself
> already responded in the same spirit.
> 
>> All the best,
> 
> RZ
> 
> 
> -- 
> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
> Department f?r Asienstudien
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU)
> 






From dominic.goodall at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 04:45:20 2015
From: dominic.goodall at gmail.com (Dominic Goodall)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 10:15:20 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable	rhyming?
Message-ID: <DEDD3566-5211-4632-B0D4-896D2E9D6C6E@gmail.com>

A late reaction to an earlier thread.

Setting aside the question of dating, which is so often contentious, I am always *amazed* when people tell me that they are not convinced that the Bh?gavatapur??a is a Southern production.  The work is full of Southern touches, many of which have been pointed out by a variety of scholars over the last century.  Yes, ok, there are also Northern touches, but why should that be surprising for a Southern work ?  The South seems always long to have been more conscious of the North than the North has been of the South.  It is full, for example, of rather long-standing Northern sacred toponyms (Tenkasi = ?Benares of the South?; Madurai = Mathur?, etc.; and, of course Southern rivers are regularly equated with the Ga?g? and Yamun?), whereas there are no old instances of a ?Northern? K??c? or ?r?ra?gam or Chidambam, nor of the "K?ver? of the North?. 

Or are there ?

Similarly, the high literary style of the Bh?gavata, involving, in some parts, a high concentration of Vedic archaisms seems sometimes to be mentioned as though it were a factor that might suggest high antiquity and a provenance somewhere in the North.  But at what time in any part of the Sanskritic world would Vedic literature not have been prestigious and accessible to Veda-knowers seeking to write in a consciously archaising style?

But what about an element of style that not nearly as many authors would have been similarly motivated to copy ?

Second-syllable rhyming, in which just the consonant of the second syllable of each verse-quarter is rhymed, is abundantly present in post-Sangam Tamil literature and ubiquitous (or, if not, at least pretty nearly so) in the devotional literature of the ??v?rs and N?ya?m?rs, while being extremely rare in Sanskrit verse composition.  An example will make this clear:

BhP_10.31.001/1 jayati te 'dhika? janman? vraja? ?rayata indir? ?a?vad atra hi
BhP_10.31.001/3 dayita d??yat?? dik?u t?vak?s tvayi dh?t?savas tv?? vicinvate
BhP_10.31.002/1 ?aradud??aye s?dhuj?tasatsarasijodara?r?mu?? d???
BhP_10.31.002/3 suratan?tha te '?ulkad?sik? varada nighnato neha ki? vadha?
BhP_10.31.003/1 vi?ajal?pyay?d vy?lar?k?as?d var?am?rut?d vaidyut?nal?t
BhP_10.31.003/3 v??amay?tmaj?d vi?vato bhay?d ??abha te vaya? rak?it? muhu?
BhP_10.31.004/1 na khalu gop?k?nandano bhav?n akhiladehin?m antar?tmad?k
BhP_10.31.004/3 vikhanas?rthito vi?vaguptaye sakha udeyiv?n s?tvat?? kule

I had long thought that this argument, expressed in 1996, would be a clincher, at least for the devotional verses in which second-syllable rhyming occurs, for proving Southernness, since I don?t know of any other Sanskrit works that use this feature.

But Sanskrit literature is vast, hence this appeal:

Does anyone know of any other Sanskrit works that use such 2nd-syllable rhyming?



Dominic Goodall
?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient,
19, rue Dumas,
Pondicherry 605001
Tel. +91 413 2334539




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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 05:09:13 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 10:39:13 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eY5uBTP7i9aoa7TxeXMeuHbtwzUssrMmm2Fa8kPu8jGJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Let us imagine traditional Sanskrit scholars of India build a new s'Astra
called amerikAdhyayanas'Astra, amerikAs'Astra in short. The s'Astra follows
praMANas, tarkapaddhati/vAdapaddhati, paribhAshAs, and all other essential
features of a s'Astra to study American society.

Let us imagine s'Astra becomes THE method of study for all academics in
America.

Is there or isn't there a possibility that for Americans, some aspects
of the picture of America understood through the method of s'Astra, however
robust the method of s'Astra is, apeears to be not correct and then they
begin to question the correctness of the very approach of looking at
American society through s'Astric methods?

Is it correct to argue in that case, that the method of s'Astra is as
neutral as a rikshaw or a combustion Engine and it has no cultural
conditioning?

Will it be wrong to suggest that the s'Astra if used to do amerikAs'Astra,
should be used after modifying it in such a way that it is freed from the
cultural conditionings in it?

N


-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044nings free from the


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From SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk  Tue Jul 28 05:12:29 2015
From: SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk (Geoffrey Samuel)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 05:12:29 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <1438058042-8259372.99209448.ft6S4XEIA014343@rs143.luxsci.com>
Message-ID: <VI1PR02MB08777ADAFFD82156B36B1618FF8D0@VI1PR02MB0877.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>

There is perhaps a distinction between being a spiritual practitioner and being an advocate. But in my experience neither excludes genuine scholarship, and I would regret it if people such as Howard were to feel they had to withdraw from the list. We need a plurality of perspectives. 

In any case, I suspect there are quite a few people on the list who would have to withdraw if that criterion were applied systematically.

The level of rhetorical aggression displayed on the list over the last few days seems to me both inappropriate and thoroughly uncollegial. 

Geoffrey

________________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu>
Sent: 28 July 2015 05:33
To: Robert Zydenbos
Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra

Ironically, when Malhotra argues that a non-believer, or non-practitioner, is unqualified to analyze a religious or spiritual tradition, many on this list respond with an almost vicious attack on him. Yet when someone on the List claims that a spiritual practioner, and advocate, cannot be a good academic scholar, apriori, this apparently is acceptable.

If this is indeed the case, I will respectfully withdraw from the List.

Best,
Howard

> On Jul 28, 2015, at 12:51 AM, Robert Zydenbos <zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>
> Howard Resnick wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> Unfortunately, you got the Indianzing backward. Here is my quote from
>> the article you sent us:
>>
>> ?We were trying to do something which could not be done, and that is
>> trying to Indian-ize the world in the name of Krishna,? Resnick said.
>
> My impression is that you are still trying to Indianize, but partially;
> not so much in externalities, but in thought, Weltanschauung. Otherwise
> there would be no point in your Krishna West.
>
> And here I want to point out what can be read in one of the comments to
> that online article:
>
> "This kind of "Hindu evangelism" is what scholar-practitioner Rajiv
> Malhotra refers to as a "U-Turn." These people benefit enormously from
> Hinduism and basically proceed to turn their backs on it while they go
> mainstream. They should be exposed for the frauds that they are."
>
> I only know this from this online comment by a person I do not know, and
> I have no idea just where and how Malhotra has stated that people like
> you are 'frauds'. (But I think we recognize the style.) If this is
> correct, then it looks like he wants to 'take back' Hare Krishna too.
> (So better take care.)
>
>> [...] My concern with
>> meta-epistemological issues as they manifest in insider and outsider
>> perspectives, and subsequently impact Indology, and the general study of
>> sacred traditions, is not really ?nit-picking.?
>
> Sorry, I think we have a little misunderstanding here. My remark about
> 'nit-picking' referred to your reaction to Dominik in the thread, which
> I left quoted at the bottom of my post. But I see that Dominik himself
> already responded in the same spirit.
>
>> All the best,
>
> RZ
>
>
> --
> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
> Department f?r Asienstudien
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU)
>


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 05:14:26 2015
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 10:44:26 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?
In-Reply-To: <DEDD3566-5211-4632-B0D4-896D2E9D6C6E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAANHO16Bxwqx6rCUeA0spYFj959BFqrDtLiCWAVpdMCGu=C9hA@mail.gmail.com>

Second-syllable rhyme is also a sine qua non in Kannada poetry, and
Jayak?rti uses it in his definitions/examples (all in Sanskrit) of
different verse-forms in the Chandonu??sana (ca. 1000 CE)---not just in the
seventh chapter, where J. exemplifies some Kannada meters, but also
occasionally in the sixth, which treats of Prakrit and Apabhra??a meters.

According to Yigal Bronner and David Shulman ("A Cloud Turned Goose" in
IESHR 43 in 2006), it's also used in later Sanskrit works by Tamil authors
(??kalya Malla's *Ud?rar?ghava* and N?laka??ha D?k?ita's *?ival?l?r?ava*).



On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Dominic Goodall <dominic.goodall at gmail.com
> wrote:

> A late reaction to an earlier thread.
>
> Setting aside the question of dating, which is so often contentious, I am
> always *amazed* when people tell me that they are not convinced that the
> *Bh?gavatapur??a* is a Southern production.  The work is full of Southern
> touches, many of which have been pointed out by a variety of scholars over
> the last century.  Yes, ok, there are also Northern touches, but why should
> that be surprising for a Southern work ?  The South seems always long to
> have been more conscious of the North than the North has been of the
> South.  It is full, for example, of rather long-standing Northern sacred
> toponyms (Tenkasi = ?Benares of the South?; Madurai = Mathur?, etc.; and,
> of course Southern rivers are regularly equated with the Ga?g? and Yamun?),
> whereas there are no old instances of a ?Northern? K??c? or ?r?ra?gam or
> Chidambam, nor of the "K?ver? of the North?.
>
> Or are there ?
>
> Similarly, the high literary style of the Bh?gavata, involving, in some
> parts, a high concentration of Vedic archaisms seems sometimes to be
> mentioned as though it were a factor that might suggest high antiquity and
> a provenance somewhere in the North.  But at what time in any part of the
> Sanskritic world would Vedic literature not have been prestigious and
> accessible to Veda-knowers seeking to write in a consciously archaising
> style?
>
> But what about an element of style that not nearly as many authors would
> have been similarly motivated to copy ?
>
> Second-syllable rhyming, in which just the consonant of the second
> syllable of each verse-quarter is rhymed, is abundantly present in
> post-Sangam Tamil literature and ubiquitous (or, if not, at least pretty
> nearly so) in the devotional literature of the ??v?rs and N?ya?m?rs, while
> being extremely rare in Sanskrit verse composition.  An example will make
> this clear:
>
> BhP_10.31.001/1 ja*ya*ti te 'dhika? janman? vraja? ?ra*ya*ta indir?
> ?a?vad atra hi
> BhP_10.31.001/3 da*yi*ta d??yat?? dik?u t?vak?s tva*yi* dh?t?savas tv??
> vicinvate
> BhP_10.31.002/1 ?a*ra*dud??aye s?dhuj?tasatsa*ra*sijodara?r?mu?? d???
> BhP_10.31.002/3 su*ra*tan?tha te '?ulkad?sik? va*ra*da nighnato neha ki?
> vadha?
> BhP_10.31.003/1 vi*?a*jal?pyay?d vy?lar?k?as?d var*?a*m?rut?d
> vaidyut?nal?t
> BhP_10.31.003/3 v?*?a*may?tmaj?d vi?vato bhay?d ?*?a*bha te vaya? rak?it?
> muhu?
> BhP_10.31.004/1 na *kha*lu gop?k?nandano bhav?n a*khi*ladehin?m
> antar?tmad?k
> BhP_10.31.004/3 vi*kha*nas?rthito vi?vaguptaye sa*kha* udeyiv?n s?tvat??
> kule
>
> I had long thought that this argument, expressed in 1996, would be a
> clincher, at least for the devotional verses in which second-syllable
> rhyming occurs, for proving Southernness, since I don?t know of any other
> Sanskrit works that use this feature.
>
> But Sanskrit literature is vast, hence this appeal:
>
> Does anyone know of any other Sanskrit works that use such 2nd-syllable
> rhyming?
>
>
>
> Dominic Goodall
> ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient,
> 19, rue Dumas,
> Pondicherry 605001
> Tel. +91 413 2334539
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Jul 28 05:34:54 2015
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 00:34:54 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use	2nd-syllable rhyming?
In-Reply-To: <DEDD3566-5211-4632-B0D4-896D2E9D6C6E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <922B47E1-29C6-406C-BA37-252BAF1B373A@aol.com>

Dominic,

How about Jayadeva?s works as in https://soundcloud.com/janakiraman/nindati-chandana-by-shree-t-n <https://soundcloud.com/janakiraman/nindati-chandana-by-shree-t-n> . But then, as Hardy notes in Viraha-Bhakti, p. 551, the impact of BhP was already there.

Indira Peterson has published a paper on Muthuswami Dikshitar?s Sanskrit compositions which deals with this second syllable rhyming (?Sanskrit in Carnatic Music: The Songs of Muttusv?mi D?k?ita.? Indo-Iranian Journal, 29, 1986, pp. 183-199). This song may be an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwTRB0-JaTc <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwTRB0-JaTc> .

Regards,
Palaniappan

> On Jul 27, 2015, at 11:45 PM, Dominic Goodall <dominic.goodall at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> A late reaction to an earlier thread.
> 
> Setting aside the question of dating, which is so often contentious, I am always *amazed* when people tell me that they are not convinced that the Bh?gavatapur??a is a Southern production.  The work is full of Southern touches, many of which have been pointed out by a variety of scholars over the last century.  Yes, ok, there are also Northern touches, but why should that be surprising for a Southern work ?  The South seems always long to have been more conscious of the North than the North has been of the South.  It is full, for example, of rather long-standing Northern sacred toponyms (Tenkasi = ?Benares of the South?; Madurai = Mathur?, etc.; and, of course Southern rivers are regularly equated with the Ga?g? and Yamun?), whereas there are no old instances of a ?Northern? K??c? or ?r?ra?gam or Chidambam, nor of the "K?ver? of the North?. 
> 
> Or are there ?
> 
> Similarly, the high literary style of the Bh?gavata, involving, in some parts, a high concentration of Vedic archaisms seems sometimes to be mentioned as though it were a factor that might suggest high antiquity and a provenance somewhere in the North.  But at what time in any part of the Sanskritic world would Vedic literature not have been prestigious and accessible to Veda-knowers seeking to write in a consciously archaising style?
> 
> But what about an element of style that not nearly as many authors would have been similarly motivated to copy ?
> 
> Second-syllable rhyming, in which just the consonant of the second syllable of each verse-quarter is rhymed, is abundantly present in post-Sangam Tamil literature and ubiquitous (or, if not, at least pretty nearly so) in the devotional literature of the ??v?rs and N?ya?m?rs, while being extremely rare in Sanskrit verse composition.  An example will make this clear:
> 
> BhP_10.31.001/1 jayati te 'dhika? janman? vraja? ?rayata indir? ?a?vad atra hi
> BhP_10.31.001/3 dayita d??yat?? dik?u t?vak?s tvayi dh?t?savas tv?? vicinvate
> BhP_10.31.002/1 ?aradud??aye s?dhuj?tasatsarasijodara?r?mu?? d???
> BhP_10.31.002/3 suratan?tha te '?ulkad?sik? varada nighnato neha ki? vadha?
> BhP_10.31.003/1 vi?ajal?pyay?d vy?lar?k?as?d var?am?rut?d vaidyut?nal?t
> BhP_10.31.003/3 v??amay?tmaj?d vi?vato bhay?d ??abha te vaya? rak?it? muhu?
> BhP_10.31.004/1 na khalu gop?k?nandano bhav?n akhiladehin?m antar?tmad?k
> BhP_10.31.004/3 vikhanas?rthito vi?vaguptaye sakha udeyiv?n s?tvat?? kule
> 
> I had long thought that this argument, expressed in 1996, would be a clincher, at least for the devotional verses in which second-syllable rhyming occurs, for proving Southernness, since I don?t know of any other Sanskrit works that use this feature.
> 
> But Sanskrit literature is vast, hence this appeal:
> 
> Does anyone know of any other Sanskrit works that use such 2nd-syllable rhyming?
> 
> 
> 
> Dominic Goodall
> ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient,
> 19, rue Dumas,
> Pondicherry 605001
> Tel. +91 413 2334539
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From nasadasin at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 06:21:26 2015
From: nasadasin at gmail.com (Al Collins)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 15 22:21:26 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indology and culture
Message-ID: <CAHiOYM-zawC=KCDzHnxWoPPg0mWQ==gYGDN6oe1cSMFu0ADhJg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dr. Wujastyk,

I didn't intend to disparage Indology, which was at the center of my life
for many years as I pursued my first PhD. at Texas, and has continued to
occupy at least a third of it since. I immersed myself in the work of Renou
(my Vedic guru), Heesterman, Gonda, van Buitenen, Luders, Thieme, Caland,
and so many others as I read in the Rg Veda, Atharvaveda, Brahmanas,
Upanisads, Mahabharata, Samkhya Karika, Manu and Medhatithi, Ramanuja's
Vedarthasamgraha, and Samkara.  I studied personally with S.M. Katre, Edgar
Polome, V. Raghavan, T.M.P. Mahadevan, and others. I still love Indology
(most recently reading Kalidasa in Sanskrit with my son, who has had 4
years of the language), although my work has moved to the comparative study
of Indian psychology and psychoanalysis (my day job, for which I obtained
my second PhD, is in clinical psychology).  I recently edited a volume on
Jung and India, with an article by myself and my wife (a Jungian
psychoanalyst) about Indian--and Indological-- influences on Jung.  All
this context to situate myself, not as an Indologist, but rather, nowadays,
a consumer of Indology and grateful user of its data and insights.

But the assertion that Indology has not always been pure, and may have
contributed to Western political, religious, economic, and
intellectual domination of India, still seems indisputable to
me. Realistically, how could one expect any discipline to be immune to its
"substructure"?  Christine Maillard, for instance, in the book I cited
before and many other places, summarizes how Indology grew in part from
English colonial interests, missionary (Jesuit and protestant) efforts to
Christianize the pagans, and German Romanticism and its need for fresh
enchantment to fill the void left by the Enlightenment.  In situating
Malhotra within that encounter of civilizations I do not think I disparage
either the Indology he criticizes or the critic. His behavior has at
times been sloppy, atrocious even, I can agree, but still he has arguments
worth taking seriously. I simply try to point the discussion of Malhotra
vis-a-vis Indology in what I think is the right direction, toward broader
questions of cultural encounter rather than the too-limited issue of his
"plagiarism." Obviously Indology is far more than the ideologies and
politics that may still  lurk around the fringes of its theory and method,
and I accept that Indology often achieves an exemplary degree of self
consciousness and critical reflection on its assumptions. But that is not
to say it has not at times, more in the early days, been used (more or less
unconsciously) in the interest of what I will call, in a general sense,
"colonial" or ideological aims.

As to your point that the India Indologists study is a wholly or mostly
foreign realm, I realize this is probably the more accepted position
nowadays (perennialism is pass?, except in Witzel's new incarnation). On
the other hand, I am impressed by the evidence McKim Marriott and his
students have found of parallels between the categories in which the world
of recent peasant India is organized and those of Samkhya (using the term
broadly, not referring just to the darsana). And even if lost culture
cannot really be reappropriated, surely we must recognize that the fantasy
of doing this is itself a common phenomenon, and has sometimes proved
creative. Surely it is possible that a renaissance of "Hinduism" (in some
recreated form, even Malhotra's)  could invigorate contemporary India,
though I strongly add that I am not advocating the sort of religion that
passes for Hindu in the political wastelands. I suggest that the work of
Tagore, Aurobindo, and Gandhi did achieve a measure
of this renascence, with an effect on (greater) Europe almost as large as
it had within India.

With regards, but increasing trepidation,

Al Collins, Ph.D., Ph.D.

https://pacifica.academia.edu/AlfredCollins


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From r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org  Tue Jul 28 06:11:27 2015
From: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org (Richard Mahoney)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 18:11:27 +1200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <VI1PR02MB08777ADAFFD82156B36B1618FF8D0@VI1PR02MB0877.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <55B71D0F.90900@indica-et-buddhica.org>

On 28/07/15 17:12, Geoffrey Samuel wrote:
> There is perhaps a distinction between being a spiritual practitioner
> and being an advocate. But in my experience neither excludes genuine
> scholarship, and I would regret it if people such as Howard were to
> feel they had to withdraw from the list. We need a plurality of
> perspectives.
> 
> In any case, I suspect there are quite a few people on the list who 
> would have to withdraw if that criterion were applied 
> systematically.
> 
> The level of rhetorical aggression displayed on the list over the 
> last few days seems to me both inappropriate and thoroughly 
> uncollegial.

Agreed -- and apart from finding all of this incomprehensible -- I've
also been wondering about the extent to which historiography is being
included in undergrad courses.

R


-- 
Richard Mahoney

Littledene  Bay Road  Oxford  NZ
M: +64-21-064-0216  T: +64-3-312-1699
r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org

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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Jul 28 07:13:21 2015
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 02:13:21 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use	2nd-syllable rhyming?
In-Reply-To: <922B47E1-29C6-406C-BA37-252BAF1B373A@aol.com>
Message-ID: <458FED14-6B8E-4FE9-88A4-14012552BC70@aol.com>

On p. 188 of the earlier referenced article, Indira Peterson says, ?In Dravidian vernacular poetic texts, initial rhyme occurs at the beginning of and within the line of poetry, while second-consonant or -syllable rhyme is placed only at the beginning of the line of poetry, i.e., yati is a line-internal rhyme pattern, while pr?sa is line-external.? This is not correct as far as Tamil is concerned. The second syllable rhyme can also occur within a line in different patterns. Assuming there are are four feet in a line, the second-syllable rhyming can occur in different patterns such as between feet 1 and 2; 1 and 3; 1 and 4; 1, 2, and 3; 1, 3, and 4; 1, 2, and 4; and 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Peterson does discuss BhP on the same page.

Regards,
Palaniappan

> On Jul 28, 2015, at 12:34 AM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> Dominic,
> 
> How about Jayadeva?s works as in https://soundcloud.com/janakiraman/nindati-chandana-by-shree-t-n <https://soundcloud.com/janakiraman/nindati-chandana-by-shree-t-n> . But then, as Hardy notes in Viraha-Bhakti, p. 551, the impact of BhP was already there.
> 
> Indira Peterson has published a paper on Muthuswami Dikshitar?s Sanskrit compositions which deals with this second syllable rhyming (?Sanskrit in Carnatic Music: The Songs of Muttusv?mi D?k?ita.? Indo-Iranian Journal, 29, 1986, pp. 183-199). This song may be an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwTRB0-JaTc <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwTRB0-JaTc> .
> 
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
> 
>> On Jul 27, 2015, at 11:45 PM, Dominic Goodall <dominic.goodall at gmail.com <mailto:dominic.goodall at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> A late reaction to an earlier thread.
>> 
>> Setting aside the question of dating, which is so often contentious, I am always *amazed* when people tell me that they are not convinced that the Bh?gavatapur??a is a Southern production.  The work is full of Southern touches, many of which have been pointed out by a variety of scholars over the last century.  Yes, ok, there are also Northern touches, but why should that be surprising for a Southern work ?  The South seems always long to have been more conscious of the North than the North has been of the South.  It is full, for example, of rather long-standing Northern sacred toponyms (Tenkasi = ?Benares of the South?; Madurai = Mathur?, etc.; and, of course Southern rivers are regularly equated with the Ga?g? and Yamun?), whereas there are no old instances of a ?Northern? K??c? or ?r?ra?gam or Chidambam, nor of the "K?ver? of the North?. 
>> 
>> Or are there ?
>> 
>> Similarly, the high literary style of the Bh?gavata, involving, in some parts, a high concentration of Vedic archaisms seems sometimes to be mentioned as though it were a factor that might suggest high antiquity and a provenance somewhere in the North.  But at what time in any part of the Sanskritic world would Vedic literature not have been prestigious and accessible to Veda-knowers seeking to write in a consciously archaising style?
>> 
>> But what about an element of style that not nearly as many authors would have been similarly motivated to copy ?
>> 
>> Second-syllable rhyming, in which just the consonant of the second syllable of each verse-quarter is rhymed, is abundantly present in post-Sangam Tamil literature and ubiquitous (or, if not, at least pretty nearly so) in the devotional literature of the ??v?rs and N?ya?m?rs, while being extremely rare in Sanskrit verse composition.  An example will make this clear:
>> 
>> BhP_10.31.001/1 jayati te 'dhika? janman? vraja? ?rayata indir? ?a?vad atra hi
>> BhP_10.31.001/3 dayita d??yat?? dik?u t?vak?s tvayi dh?t?savas tv?? vicinvate
>> BhP_10.31.002/1 ?aradud??aye s?dhuj?tasatsarasijodara?r?mu?? d???
>> BhP_10.31.002/3 suratan?tha te '?ulkad?sik? varada nighnato neha ki? vadha?
>> BhP_10.31.003/1 vi?ajal?pyay?d vy?lar?k?as?d var?am?rut?d vaidyut?nal?t
>> BhP_10.31.003/3 v??amay?tmaj?d vi?vato bhay?d ??abha te vaya? rak?it? muhu?
>> BhP_10.31.004/1 na khalu gop?k?nandano bhav?n akhiladehin?m antar?tmad?k
>> BhP_10.31.004/3 vikhanas?rthito vi?vaguptaye sakha udeyiv?n s?tvat?? kule
>> 
>> I had long thought that this argument, expressed in 1996, would be a clincher, at least for the devotional verses in which second-syllable rhyming occurs, for proving Southernness, since I don?t know of any other Sanskrit works that use this feature.
>> 
>> But Sanskrit literature is vast, hence this appeal:
>> 
>> Does anyone know of any other Sanskrit works that use such 2nd-syllable rhyming?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Dominic Goodall
>> ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient,
>> 19, rue Dumas,
>> Pondicherry 605001
>> Tel. +91 413 2334539
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 



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From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Tue Jul 28 07:35:31 2015
From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 09:35:31 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2648.1438067615.11424.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <55B730C3.2070300@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

Dear Palaniappan,


Maybe Indira Peterson is referring to what is most frequently seen.


Metrical treatises codify (and name) many theoretical possibilities
but many of those "possibilities" are extremely rare (and found only as 
examples inside treatises), which is why, when writing about Tamil meter
in a series of article, I have tried to make statistics.


-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (about to fly from Paris to India)


"https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"

"https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"

"https://twitter.com/JLC1956"



On 28/07/2015 09:13, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY wrote:
> On p. 188 of the earlier referenced article, Indira Peterson says, ?In
> Dravidian vernacular poetic texts, initial rhyme occurs at the beginning
> of and within the line of poetry, while second-consonant or -syllable
> rhyme is placed only at the beginning of the line of poetry, i.e., yati
> is a line-internal rhyme pattern, while pr?sa is line-external.? This is
> not correct as far as Tamil is concerned. The second syllable rhyme can
> also occur within a line in different patterns. Assuming there are are
> four feet in a line, the second-syllable rhyming can occur in different
> patterns such as between feet 1 and 2; 1 and 3; 1 and 4; 1, 2, and 3; 1,
> 3, and 4; 1, 2, and 4; and 1, 2, 3, and 4.






From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Tue Jul 28 07:46:57 2015
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 09:46:57 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <1438058042-8259372.99209448.ft6S4XEIA014343@rs143.luxsci.com>
Message-ID: <55B73371.20002@uni-muenchen.de>

Howard Resnick wrote:

> Ironically, when Malhotra argues that a non-believer, or
> non-practitioner, is unqualified to analyze a religious or spiritual
> tradition, many on this list respond with an almost vicious attack on
> him.

?which is perfectly justified. One need not have broken bones oneself in
order to be a good orthopaedist. Similarly, the academic study of
religion does not necessarily require that one is a 'believer' or
'practioner', whether in a formal sense or not.

There is a difference between theology and religious studies. Religious
fundamentalists refuse to understand or acknowledge that.

> Yet when someone on the List claims that a spiritual practioner,
> and advocate, cannot be a good academic scholar, apriori, this
> apparently is acceptable.

That is not necessarily so. To have had broken bones cannot be a
disqualification for an orthopaedist. A scholar of literature can
himself be a writer, etc.

> If this is indeed the case, I will respectfully withdraw from the
> List.

Sorry, but that would be a faulty conclusion. Please go back to what I
sent to this list and see that, reportedly, Mr. Malhotra calls you and
others who in his opinion are not Indian enough frauds.

So instead of withdrawing yourself from this list, you perhaps ought to
investigate Mr. Malhotra's idea of you and your work and then decide
whether you want to withdraw your efforts at defending him.

> Best,

RZ






From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Tue Jul 28 08:15:42 2015
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 08:15:42 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO16Bxwqx6rCUeA0spYFj959BFqrDtLiCWAVpdMCGu=C9hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522C6F3C5@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dominic Goodall wrote:


?Second-syllable rhyming, in which just the consonant of the second syllable of each verse-quarter is rhymed, is abundantly present in post-Sangam Tamil literature and ubiquitous (or, if not, at least pretty nearly so) in the devotional literature of the ??v?rs and N?ya?m?rs, while being extremely rare in Sanskrit verse composition.?


For such instances of rhyming in Indo-Aryan literature rather than to Sanskrit verse composition we should to the Pr?krit and Apabhra??a ?song? literature. As I have argued elsewhere Tamil devotional literature borrowed from Pr?krit and Apabhra??a models. See, apart from the relevant chapters in my K?vya in South India. Old Tamil Ca?kam Poetry from 2001, ?Bhoja's ?r??g?raprak??a and the kuravai poems in Kalittokai?, in Kannan M. and Jennifer Clare, Passages: relationships between Tamil and Sanskrit, 145-162, and ?Songs accompanied by so-called bha?it?s in dramatic texts?, in Karin Steiner and Heidrun Br?ckner, Indisches Theater: Text, Theorie, Praxis, 63-75.


As to Jayadeva?s G?tagovinda, may I quote myself?:


?Its composite nature marks the Gitagovinda as a literary experiment. In fact, this is evident in yet another respect, namely the use of Sanskrit. For, both genres combined in the G?tagovinda, namely the l?sya and catu?pad?, were in Pr?krit. The G?tagovinda is a ?translation? into Sanskrit of an original Pr?krit type of composition. Interestingly, as such the G?tagovinda does not stand on its own. A similar development is seen in the ?ry?sapta?at?, a Sanskrit translation of the Pr?krit Sattasa?. It cannot be a coincidence that the author of the ?ry?sapta?at?, a certain Govardhana, was patronized by the same Bengali king Lak?ma?asena who was believed to have been the patron of Jayadeva (see Pischel 1893).?


(?The Genre of Yayadeva's G?tagovinda? in Cracow Indological Studies, Vols 4/5, 586-608, esp. p. 605.)


Herman Tieken



Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Andrew Ollett [andrew.ollett at gmail.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 28 juli 2015 7:14
Aan: Dominic Goodall
CC: Indology List
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?

Second-syllable rhyme is also a sine qua non in Kannada poetry, and Jayak?rti uses it in his definitions/examples (all in Sanskrit) of different verse-forms in the Chandonu??sana (ca. 1000 CE)---not just in the seventh chapter, where J. exemplifies some Kannada meters, but also occasionally in the sixth, which treats of Prakrit and Apabhra??a meters.

According to Yigal Bronner and David Shulman ("A Cloud Turned Goose" in IESHR 43 in 2006), it's also used in later Sanskrit works by Tamil authors (??kalya Malla's Ud?rar?ghava and N?laka??ha D?k?ita's ?ival?l?r?ava).



On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Dominic Goodall <dominic.goodall at gmail.com<mailto:dominic.goodall at gmail.com>> wrote:
A late reaction to an earlier thread.

Setting aside the question of dating, which is so often contentious, I am always *amazed* when people tell me that they are not convinced that the Bh?gavatapur??a is a Southern production.  The work is full of Southern touches, many of which have been pointed out by a variety of scholars over the last century.  Yes, ok, there are also Northern touches, but why should that be surprising for a Southern work ?  The South seems always long to have been more conscious of the North than the North has been of the South.  It is full, for example, of rather long-standing Northern sacred toponyms (Tenkasi = ?Benares of the South?; Madurai = Mathur?, etc.; and, of course Southern rivers are regularly equated with the Ga?g? and Yamun?), whereas there are no old instances of a ?Northern? K??c? or ?r?ra?gam or Chidambam, nor of the "K?ver? of the North?.

Or are there ?

Similarly, the high literary style of the Bh?gavata, involving, in some parts, a high concentration of Vedic archaisms seems sometimes to be mentioned as though it were a factor that might suggest high antiquity and a provenance somewhere in the North.  But at what time in any part of the Sanskritic world would Vedic literature not have been prestigious and accessible to Veda-knowers seeking to write in a consciously archaising style?

But what about an element of style that not nearly as many authors would have been similarly motivated to copy ?

Second-syllable rhyming, in which just the consonant of the second syllable of each verse-quarter is rhymed, is abundantly present in post-Sangam Tamil literature and ubiquitous (or, if not, at least pretty nearly so) in the devotional literature of the ??v?rs and N?ya?m?rs, while being extremely rare in Sanskrit verse composition.  An example will make this clear:

BhP_10.31.001/1 jayati te 'dhika? janman? vraja? ?rayata indir? ?a?vad atra hi
BhP_10.31.001/3 dayita d??yat?? dik?u t?vak?s tvayi dh?t?savas tv?? vicinvate
BhP_10.31.002/1 ?aradud??aye s?dhuj?tasatsarasijodara?r?mu?? d???
BhP_10.31.002/3 suratan?tha te '?ulkad?sik? varada nighnato neha ki? vadha?
BhP_10.31.003/1 vi?ajal?pyay?d vy?lar?k?as?d var?am?rut?d vaidyut?nal?t
BhP_10.31.003/3 v??amay?tmaj?d vi?vato bhay?d ??abha te vaya? rak?it? muhu?
BhP_10.31.004/1 na khalu gop?k?nandano bhav?n akhiladehin?m antar?tmad?k
BhP_10.31.004/3 vikhanas?rthito vi?vaguptaye sakha udeyiv?n s?tvat?? kule

I had long thought that this argument, expressed in 1996, would be a clincher, at least for the devotional verses in which second-syllable rhyming occurs, for proving Southernness, since I don?t know of any other Sanskrit works that use this feature.

But Sanskrit literature is vast, hence this appeal:

Does anyone know of any other Sanskrit works that use such 2nd-syllable rhyming?



Dominic Goodall
?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient,
19, rue Dumas,
Pondicherry 605001
Tel. +91 413 2334539



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
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From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 10:53:12 2015
From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 06:53:12 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO16Bxwqx6rCUeA0spYFj959BFqrDtLiCWAVpdMCGu=C9hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOXgvipn6Z1LehD7Ue=p+b-jFsV1LizAQsmEjVfsrJ=AkJeGQg@mail.gmail.com>

*?ivapa?c?k?ar?nak?atram?la *attributed to Adi Sankara shows *dvit?y?k?arapr?sa
*in all of its 27 ?lokas.

http://sanskritdocuments.org/doc_shiva/shiva5nakshatra.pdf

Suresh.

On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 1:14 AM, Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Second-syllable rhyme is also a sine qua non in Kannada poetry, and
> Jayak?rti uses it in his definitions/examples (all in Sanskrit) of
> different verse-forms in the Chandonu??sana (ca. 1000 CE)---not just in the
> seventh chapter, where J. exemplifies some Kannada meters, but also
> occasionally in the sixth, which treats of Prakrit and Apabhra??a meters.
>
> According to Yigal Bronner and David Shulman ("A Cloud Turned Goose" in
> IESHR 43 in 2006), it's also used in later Sanskrit works by Tamil authors
> (??kalya Malla's *Ud?rar?ghava* and N?laka??ha D?k?ita's *?ival?l?r?ava*).
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Dominic Goodall <
> dominic.goodall at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A late reaction to an earlier thread.
>>
>> Setting aside the question of dating, which is so often contentious, I am
>> always *amazed* when people tell me that they are not convinced that the
>> *Bh?gavatapur??a* is a Southern production.  The work is full of
>> Southern touches, many of which have been pointed out by a variety of
>> scholars over the last century.  Yes, ok, there are also Northern touches,
>> but why should that be surprising for a Southern work ?  The South seems
>> always long to have been more conscious of the North than the North has
>> been of the South.  It is full, for example, of rather long-standing
>> Northern sacred toponyms (Tenkasi = ?Benares of the South?; Madurai =
>> Mathur?, etc.; and, of course Southern rivers are regularly equated with
>> the Ga?g? and Yamun?), whereas there are no old instances of a ?Northern?
>> K??c? or ?r?ra?gam or Chidambam, nor of the "K?ver? of the North?.
>>
>> Or are there ?
>>
>> Similarly, the high literary style of the Bh?gavata, involving, in some
>> parts, a high concentration of Vedic archaisms seems sometimes to be
>> mentioned as though it were a factor that might suggest high antiquity and
>> a provenance somewhere in the North.  But at what time in any part of the
>> Sanskritic world would Vedic literature not have been prestigious and
>> accessible to Veda-knowers seeking to write in a consciously archaising
>> style?
>>
>> But what about an element of style that not nearly as many authors would
>> have been similarly motivated to copy ?
>>
>> Second-syllable rhyming, in which just the consonant of the second
>> syllable of each verse-quarter is rhymed, is abundantly present in
>> post-Sangam Tamil literature and ubiquitous (or, if not, at least pretty
>> nearly so) in the devotional literature of the ??v?rs and N?ya?m?rs, while
>> being extremely rare in Sanskrit verse composition.  An example will make
>> this clear:
>>
>> BhP_10.31.001/1 ja*ya*ti te 'dhika? janman? vraja? ?ra*ya*ta indir?
>> ?a?vad atra hi
>> BhP_10.31.001/3 da*yi*ta d??yat?? dik?u t?vak?s tva*yi* dh?t?savas tv??
>> vicinvate
>> BhP_10.31.002/1 ?a*ra*dud??aye s?dhuj?tasatsa*ra*sijodara?r?mu?? d???
>> BhP_10.31.002/3 su*ra*tan?tha te '?ulkad?sik? va*ra*da nighnato neha ki?
>> vadha?
>> BhP_10.31.003/1 vi*?a*jal?pyay?d vy?lar?k?as?d var*?a*m?rut?d
>> vaidyut?nal?t
>> BhP_10.31.003/3 v?*?a*may?tmaj?d vi?vato bhay?d ?*?a*bha te vaya?
>> rak?it? muhu?
>> BhP_10.31.004/1 na *kha*lu gop?k?nandano bhav?n a*khi*ladehin?m
>> antar?tmad?k
>> BhP_10.31.004/3 vi*kha*nas?rthito vi?vaguptaye sa*kha* udeyiv?n s?tvat??
>> kule
>>
>> I had long thought that this argument, expressed in 1996, would be a
>> clincher, at least for the devotional verses in which second-syllable
>> rhyming occurs, for proving Southernness, since I don?t know of any other
>> Sanskrit works that use this feature.
>>
>> But Sanskrit literature is vast, hence this appeal:
>>
>> Does anyone know of any other Sanskrit works that use such 2nd-syllable
>> rhyming?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dominic Goodall
>> ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient,
>> 19, rue Dumas,
>> Pondicherry 605001
>> Tel. +91 413 2334539
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 11:04:56 2015
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 13:04:56 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522C6F3C5@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoCNEhWixP8W4A0VeOzO_m4qVrxULc38QEeS9KtaATG8Dw@mail.gmail.com>

Dag Herman,
This is an interesting observation, no doubt relevant for the history of
the intertwined sanskritic and prakritic traditions (and yes, the
traditions of tamil kannada malayalam language metrics/poetics and
literature are also somehow intertwined, but how).
Do you have any examples as illustration for those who do not have the
mentioned publications on their lap (or in their laptop)?
Hartelijke groet,
jan



*Jan E.M. HOUBEN*

Directeur d??tudes

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

*?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques

CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

www.ephe.fr


On 28 July 2015 at 10:15, Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
wrote:

>  Dominic Goodall wrote:
>
>
>  ?Second-syllable rhyming, in which just the consonant of the second
> syllable of each verse-quarter is rhymed, is abundantly present in
> post-Sangam Tamil literature and ubiquitous (or, if not, at least pretty
> nearly so) in the devotional literature of the ??v?rs and N?ya?m?rs, while
> being extremely rare in Sanskrit verse composition.?
>
>
>  For such instances of rhyming in Indo-Aryan literature rather than to
> Sanskrit verse composition we should to the Pr?krit and Apabhra??a ?song?
> literature. As I have argued elsewhere Tamil devotional literature borrowed
> from Pr?krit and Apabhra??a models. See, apart from the relevant chapters
> in my *K?vya in South India. Old Tamil Ca?kam Poetry* from 2001, ?Bhoja's
> *?r??g?raprak??a* and the *kuravai* poems in *Kalittokai*?, in Kannan M.
> and Jennifer Clare, *Passages: relationships between Tamil and Sanskrit*,
> 145-162, and ?Songs accompanied by so-called *bha?it?s* in dramatic
> texts?, in Karin Steiner and Heidrun Br?ckner, *Indisches Theater: Text,
> Theorie, Praxis*, 63-75.
>
>
>  As to Jayadeva?s *G?tagovinda*, may I quote myself?:
>
>
>  ?Its composite nature marks the *Gitagovinda* as a literary experiment.
> In fact, this is evident in yet another respect, namely the use of
> Sanskrit. For, both genres combined in the *G?tagovinda*, namely the
> *l?sya* and *catu?pad?*, were in Pr?krit. The *G?tagovinda* is a
> ?translation? into Sanskrit of an original Pr?krit type of composition.
> Interestingly, as such the *G?tagovinda* does not stand on its own. A
> similar development is seen in the *?ry?sapta?at?*, a Sanskrit
> translation of the Pr?krit *Sattasa?*. It cannot be a coincidence that
> the author of the *?ry?sapta?at?*, a certain Govardhana, was patronized
> by the same Bengali king Lak?ma?asena who was believed to have been the
> patron of Jayadeva (see Pischel 1893).?
>
>
>  (?The Genre of Yayadeva's *G?tagovinda*? in *Cracow Indological Studies,
> *Vols 4/5, 586-608, esp. p. 605.)
>
>
>  Herman Tieken
>
>
>
>
>   Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>  website: hermantieken.com
>     ------------------------------
> *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Andrew
> Ollett [andrew.ollett at gmail.com]
> *Verzonden:* dinsdag 28 juli 2015 7:14
> *Aan:* Dominic Goodall
> *CC:* Indology List
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use
> 2nd-syllable rhyming?
>
>   Second-syllable rhyme is also a sine qua non in Kannada poetry, and
> Jayak?rti uses it in his definitions/examples (all in Sanskrit) of
> different verse-forms in the Chandonu??sana (ca. 1000 CE)---not just in the
> seventh chapter, where J. exemplifies some Kannada meters, but also
> occasionally in the sixth, which treats of Prakrit and Apabhra??a meters.
>
>  According to Yigal Bronner and David Shulman ("A Cloud Turned Goose" in
> IESHR 43 in 2006), it's also used in later Sanskrit works by Tamil authors
> (??kalya Malla's *Ud?rar?ghava* and N?laka??ha D?k?ita's *?ival?l?r?ava*).
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Dominic Goodall <
> dominic.goodall at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  A late reaction to an earlier thread.
>>
>>  Setting aside the question of dating, which is so often contentious, I
>> am always *amazed* when people tell me that they are not convinced that the
>> *Bh?gavatapur??a* is a Southern production.  The work is full of
>> Southern touches, many of which have been pointed out by a variety of
>> scholars over the last century.  Yes, ok, there are also Northern touches,
>> but why should that be surprising for a Southern work ?  The South seems
>> always long to have been more conscious of the North than the North has
>> been of the South.  It is full, for example, of rather long-standing
>> Northern sacred toponyms (Tenkasi = ?Benares of the South?; Madurai =
>> Mathur?, etc.; and, of course Southern rivers are regularly equated with
>> the Ga?g? and Yamun?), whereas there are no old instances of a ?Northern?
>> K??c? or ?r?ra?gam or Chidambam, nor of the "K?ver? of the North?.
>>
>>  Or are there ?
>>
>>  Similarly, the high literary style of the Bh?gavata, involving, in some
>> parts, a high concentration of Vedic archaisms seems sometimes to be
>> mentioned as though it were a factor that might suggest high antiquity and
>> a provenance somewhere in the North.  But at what time in any part of the
>> Sanskritic world would Vedic literature not have been prestigious and
>> accessible to Veda-knowers seeking to write in a consciously archaising
>> style?
>>
>>  But what about an element of style that not nearly as many authors
>> would have been similarly motivated to copy ?
>>
>>  Second-syllable rhyming, in which just the consonant of the second
>> syllable of each verse-quarter is rhymed, is abundantly present in
>> post-Sangam Tamil literature and ubiquitous (or, if not, at least pretty
>> nearly so) in the devotional literature of the ??v?rs and N?ya?m?rs, while
>> being extremely rare in Sanskrit verse composition.  An example will make
>> this clear:
>>
>>  BhP_10.31.001/1 ja*ya*ti te 'dhika? janman? vraja? ?ra*ya*ta indir?
>> ?a?vad atra hi
>> BhP_10.31.001/3 da*yi*ta d??yat?? dik?u t?vak?s tva*yi* dh?t?savas tv??
>> vicinvate
>> BhP_10.31.002/1 ?a*ra*dud??aye s?dhuj?tasatsa*ra*sijodara?r?mu?? d???
>> BhP_10.31.002/3 su*ra*tan?tha te '?ulkad?sik? va*ra*da nighnato neha ki?
>> vadha?
>> BhP_10.31.003/1 vi*?a*jal?pyay?d vy?lar?k?as?d var*?a*m?rut?d
>> vaidyut?nal?t
>> BhP_10.31.003/3 v?*?a*may?tmaj?d vi?vato bhay?d ?*?a*bha te vaya?
>> rak?it? muhu?
>> BhP_10.31.004/1 na *kha*lu gop?k?nandano bhav?n a*khi*ladehin?m
>> antar?tmad?k
>> BhP_10.31.004/3 vi*kha*nas?rthito vi?vaguptaye sa*kha* udeyiv?n s?tvat??
>> kule
>>
>>  I had long thought that this argument, expressed in 1996, would be a
>> clincher, at least for the devotional verses in which second-syllable
>> rhyming occurs, for proving Southernness, since I don?t know of any other
>> Sanskrit works that use this feature.
>>
>>  But Sanskrit literature is vast, hence this appeal:
>>
>>  Does anyone know of any other Sanskrit works that use such 2nd-syllable
>> rhyming?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dominic Goodall
>> ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient,
>> 19, rue Dumas,
>> Pondicherry 605001
>> Tel. +91 413 2334539
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl  Tue Jul 28 11:06:33 2015
From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 11:06:33 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Zero project
Message-ID: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9BC2164F7@PEXMB001B.vu.local>

Call for collaboration

We are seeking collaboration with academics / researchers to launch a broad-based,

multidisciplinary research project on the origin of the zero digit in India.

In order to facilitate such a project, the ZerOrigIndia Foundation, based in the

Netherlands, will soon be starting online campaign comprising three parts: a) an online

petition that may be signed by the general public to indicate support; b) a crowdfunding

component to collect donations from persons wanting to do more than simply endorse the

campaign; c) a crowdsourcing component intended for scholars and researchers, who may

wish to contribute to the cause in terms of ideas and suggestions.

We are setting ourselves the immediate goal of collecting Eu. 400,000, or a multiple

thereof, to finance the training of one or more PhD students in fields related to the research,

preferably under the auspices of a leading institution of higher learning in India but in

collaboration with a counterpart in another country.  The PhD student(s) may thus be Indian

national or hold other nationality.

Please contact us for further details if this research proposal may be of interested to

you or someone in your network.

Background

Human beings have been counting for tens of thousands of years.  But it is only within

past millennia that mathematics proper has been practiced in advanced civilizations.

Place-value systems, including base-10, base-20, base-60 and others, are found early

on, with or without a zero placeholder, that is, a symbol to represent the absence of a digit in a

number.  Numeration systems with a placeholder zero were in use for hundreds of years

without the symbol representing zero being used as actual numeral in its own right.

It is widely agreed that the use of the zero digit not only as placeholder but also as

fully-fledged numeral alongside the other numerals was an unrivaled innovation that

revolutionized mathematics, science and technology.  It is stating the obvious to note that

practically all nations on Earth have since adopted the decimal system including zero, while

few people today are aware where the numbers they use daily came from.

And while there is general agreement among scholars that the decimal system

ubiquitously in use today hails from India, reaching medieval Europe via the Arabs, there is

no consensus as to whether or not the zero digit was an indigenous South Asian invention or

whether it was ?imported? ? either from points further to the West or the East.

Thus there is much conjecture and controversy surrounding the emergence of the zero

digit as numeral and to this day it has never been incontrovertibly established precisely where

and when or in what cultural context the zero digit first appeared, let alone who the individual

was to be credited with its invention - which has been ranked among mankind?s greatest

intellectual feats.

All scholarly books and articles on the subject continually refer to certain basic facts

known about the possible origin of the zero digit without making mention of any recent or on-

going research on the subject.  To date the ZerOrigIndia Foundation has not been able to

establish whether at present there are any research teams devoted to finding any fresh

evidence that may shed light on the issue.

It is against that background that the ZerOrigIndia Foundation, which restricts its

scope to India, has set itself the task of having a properly staffed and funded multidisciplinary

research team of experts take up the challenge of answering the question as to when and

where the zero digit first appeared, and if possible to pinpoint the prevailing cultural

conditions under which the individual thrived, who made this astounding contribution to

progress.

There are still tens of thousands of ancient manuscripts in India and in the world at

large that have not been studied for any clues that may point to the origin of the zero digit.  In

that connection it would be very timely to undertake a concerted effort now to discover what

extant evidence may as yet be produced before crucial manuscripts deteriorate further or are

lost altogether.


________________________________

Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Tue Jul 28 11:36:24 2015
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 11:36:24 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoCNEhWixP8W4A0VeOzO_m4qVrxULc38QEeS9KtaATG8Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522C703F8@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

One of these days (probably next week) I will place pdfs of the publications mentioned on my website.

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: Jan E.M. Houben [jemhouben at gmail.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 28 juli 2015 13:04
Aan: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?

Dag Herman,
This is an interesting observation, no doubt relevant for the history of the intertwined sanskritic and prakritic traditions (and yes, the traditions of tamil kannada malayalam language metrics/poetics and literature are also somehow intertwined, but how).
Do you have any examples as illustration for those who do not have the mentioned publications on their lap (or in their laptop)?
Hartelijke groet,
jan


     [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B-TN0Ek0VfGDX1RqVTJKdjBuWWs&revid=0B-TN0Ek0VfGDdVF4aXhNb1F5czA4bFhBRzI1S2l3UitFeFBjPQ]

Jan E.M. HOUBEN

Directeur d??tudes

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes

Sciences historiques et philologiques

54, rue Saint-Jacques

CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr<mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

www.ephe.fr<http://www.ephe.fr>

On 28 July 2015 at 10:15, Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl<mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>> wrote:

Dominic Goodall wrote:


?Second-syllable rhyming, in which just the consonant of the second syllable of each verse-quarter is rhymed, is abundantly present in post-Sangam Tamil literature and ubiquitous (or, if not, at least pretty nearly so) in the devotional literature of the ??v?rs and N?ya?m?rs, while being extremely rare in Sanskrit verse composition.?


For such instances of rhyming in Indo-Aryan literature rather than to Sanskrit verse composition we should to the Pr?krit and Apabhra??a ?song? literature. As I have argued elsewhere Tamil devotional literature borrowed from Pr?krit and Apabhra??a models. See, apart from the relevant chapters in my K?vya in South India. Old Tamil Ca?kam Poetry from 2001, ?Bhoja's ?r??g?raprak??a and the kuravai poems in Kalittokai?, in Kannan M. and Jennifer Clare, Passages: relationships between Tamil and Sanskrit, 145-162, and ?Songs accompanied by so-called bha?it?s in dramatic texts?, in Karin Steiner and Heidrun Br?ckner, Indisches Theater: Text, Theorie, Praxis, 63-75.


As to Jayadeva?s G?tagovinda, may I quote myself?:


?Its composite nature marks the Gitagovinda as a literary experiment. In fact, this is evident in yet another respect, namely the use of Sanskrit. For, both genres combined in the G?tagovinda, namely the l?sya and catu?pad?, were in Pr?krit. The G?tagovinda is a ?translation? into Sanskrit of an original Pr?krit type of composition. Interestingly, as such the G?tagovinda does not stand on its own. A similar development is seen in the ?ry?sapta?at?, a Sanskrit translation of the Pr?krit Sattasa?. It cannot be a coincidence that the author of the ?ry?sapta?at?, a certain Govardhana, was patronized by the same Bengali king Lak?ma?asena who was believed to have been the patron of Jayadeva (see Pischel 1893).?


(?The Genre of Yayadeva's G?tagovinda? in Cracow Indological Studies, Vols 4/5, 586-608, esp. p. 605.)


Herman Tieken



Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>] namens Andrew Ollett [andrew.ollett at gmail.com<mailto:andrew.ollett at gmail.com>]
Verzonden: dinsdag 28 juli 2015 7:14
Aan: Dominic Goodall
CC: Indology List
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?

Second-syllable rhyme is also a sine qua non in Kannada poetry, and Jayak?rti uses it in his definitions/examples (all in Sanskrit) of different verse-forms in the Chandonu??sana (ca. 1000 CE)---not just in the seventh chapter, where J. exemplifies some Kannada meters, but also occasionally in the sixth, which treats of Prakrit and Apabhra??a meters.

According to Yigal Bronner and David Shulman ("A Cloud Turned Goose" in IESHR 43 in 2006), it's also used in later Sanskrit works by Tamil authors (??kalya Malla's Ud?rar?ghava and N?laka??ha D?k?ita's ?ival?l?r?ava).



On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Dominic Goodall <dominic.goodall at gmail.com<mailto:dominic.goodall at gmail.com>> wrote:
A late reaction to an earlier thread.

Setting aside the question of dating, which is so often contentious, I am always *amazed* when people tell me that they are not convinced that the Bh?gavatapur??a is a Southern production.  The work is full of Southern touches, many of which have been pointed out by a variety of scholars over the last century.  Yes, ok, there are also Northern touches, but why should that be surprising for a Southern work ?  The South seems always long to have been more conscious of the North than the North has been of the South.  It is full, for example, of rather long-standing Northern sacred toponyms (Tenkasi = ?Benares of the South?; Madurai = Mathur?, etc.; and, of course Southern rivers are regularly equated with the Ga?g? and Yamun?), whereas there are no old instances of a ?Northern? K??c? or ?r?ra?gam or Chidambam, nor of the "K?ver? of the North?.

Or are there ?

Similarly, the high literary style of the Bh?gavata, involving, in some parts, a high concentration of Vedic archaisms seems sometimes to be mentioned as though it were a factor that might suggest high antiquity and a provenance somewhere in the North.  But at what time in any part of the Sanskritic world would Vedic literature not have been prestigious and accessible to Veda-knowers seeking to write in a consciously archaising style?

But what about an element of style that not nearly as many authors would have been similarly motivated to copy ?

Second-syllable rhyming, in which just the consonant of the second syllable of each verse-quarter is rhymed, is abundantly present in post-Sangam Tamil literature and ubiquitous (or, if not, at least pretty nearly so) in the devotional literature of the ??v?rs and N?ya?m?rs, while being extremely rare in Sanskrit verse composition.  An example will make this clear:

BhP_10.31.001/1 jayati te 'dhika? janman? vraja? ?rayata indir? ?a?vad atra hi
BhP_10.31.001/3 dayita d??yat?? dik?u t?vak?s tvayi dh?t?savas tv?? vicinvate
BhP_10.31.002/1 ?aradud??aye s?dhuj?tasatsarasijodara?r?mu?? d???
BhP_10.31.002/3 suratan?tha te '?ulkad?sik? varada nighnato neha ki? vadha?
BhP_10.31.003/1 vi?ajal?pyay?d vy?lar?k?as?d var?am?rut?d vaidyut?nal?t
BhP_10.31.003/3 v??amay?tmaj?d vi?vato bhay?d ??abha te vaya? rak?it? muhu?
BhP_10.31.004/1 na khalu gop?k?nandano bhav?n akhiladehin?m antar?tmad?k
BhP_10.31.004/3 vikhanas?rthito vi?vaguptaye sakha udeyiv?n s?tvat?? kule

I had long thought that this argument, expressed in 1996, would be a clincher, at least for the devotional verses in which second-syllable rhyming occurs, for proving Southernness, since I don?t know of any other Sanskrit works that use this feature.

But Sanskrit literature is vast, hence this appeal:

Does anyone know of any other Sanskrit works that use such 2nd-syllable rhyming?



Dominic Goodall
?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient,
19, rue Dumas,
Pondicherry 605001
Tel. +91 413 2334539<tel:%2B91%20413%202334539>



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From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Tue Jul 28 11:53:54 2015
From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 13:53:54 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?
In-Reply-To: <55B730C3.2070300@univ-paris-diderot.fr>
Message-ID: <55B76D52.2040908@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

Post-Scriptum

In terms of frequency,
I would venture to say that the most serious exception to the massive 
presence of etukai at the beginning of lines in the Tamil devotional 
corpus is seen in the n?ricai ve?p? (which differs in that manner from 
the i??icai ve?p?).

See for instance the /mutal tiruvant?ti/ (by poykaiy??v?r), the /ira???m 
tiruvant?ti/, etc.

For a graphic representation of the pattern, see the attached PNG image,
taken from page 57 in a recent article of mine.

Chevillard, Jean-Luc, 2014, Metres in Tamil Bhakti Literature and the 
Problem of their (occasional) Description in Treatises (Studies in Tamil 
Metrics-2), pp.39-96, in Gillet, Val?rie (Ed.), Mapping the Chronology 
of Bhakti: Milestones, Stepping Stones, and Stumbling Stones. 
Proceedings of a Workshop Held in Honour of Pandit R. Varadadesikan, 
Collection Indologie n? 124, Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry / Ecole 
fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient.

Regarding the two types of ve?p?,
there is an interesting article by V.S. Rajam

Rajam, V.S., 1992, ?The Evolution of Ve?p? as an Independent Entity?, 
pp. 163-184 in PILC Jourrnal of Dravidic Studies, Pondicherry Institute 
of Linguistics and Culture, Volume 2:2, Pondicherry.

It might be available online somewhere, but I do not have the URL at hand.

-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (still in Paris)

"https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"

"https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"

"https://twitter.com/JLC1956"





On 28/07/2015 09:35, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote:
> Dear Palaniappan,
>
>
> Maybe Indira Peterson is referring to what is most frequently seen.
>
>
> Metrical treatises codify (and name) many theoretical possibilities
> but many of those "possibilities" are extremely rare (and found only as
> examples inside treatises), which is why, when writing about Tamil meter
> in a series of article, I have tried to make statistics.
>
>
> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (about to fly from Paris to India)
>
>
> "https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"
>
> "https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"
>
> "https://twitter.com/JLC1956"
>
>
>
> On 28/07/2015 09:13, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY wrote:
>> On p. 188 of the earlier referenced article, Indira Peterson says, ?In
>> Dravidian vernacular poetic texts, initial rhyme occurs at the beginning
>> of and within the line of poetry, while second-consonant or -syllable
>> rhyme is placed only at the beginning of the line of poetry, i.e., yati
>> is a line-internal rhyme pattern, while pr?sa is line-external.? This is
>> not correct as far as Tamil is concerned. The second syllable rhyme can
>> also occur within a line in different patterns. Assuming there are are
>> four feet in a line, the second-syllable rhyming can occur in different
>> patterns such as between feet 1 and 2; 1 and 3; 1 and 4; 1, 2, and 3; 1,
>> 3, and 4; 1, 2, and 4; and 1, 2, 3, and 4.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)





From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Tue Jul 28 11:58:43 2015
From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 13:58:43 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?
In-Reply-To: <55B76D52.2040908@univ-paris-diderot.fr>
Message-ID: <55B76E73.1030405@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

The PNG file does not seem to have been accepted by the server.

Let me try with the PDF
and then close down everything and pack

-- jlc (still in Paris)

On 28/07/2015 13:53, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote:
> Post-Scriptum
>
> In terms of frequency,
> I would venture to say that the most serious exception to the massive
> presence of etukai at the beginning of lines in the Tamil devotional
> corpus is seen in the n?ricai ve?p? (which differs in that manner from
> the i??icai ve?p?).
>
> See for instance the /mutal tiruvant?ti/ (by poykaiy??v?r), the /ira???m
> tiruvant?ti/, etc.
>
> For a graphic representation of the pattern, see the attached PNG image,
> taken from page 57 in a recent article of mine.
>
> Chevillard, Jean-Luc, 2014, Metres in Tamil Bhakti Literature and the
> Problem of their (occasional) Description in Treatises (Studies in Tamil
> Metrics-2), pp.39-96, in Gillet, Val?rie (Ed.), Mapping the Chronology
> of Bhakti: Milestones, Stepping Stones, and Stumbling Stones.
> Proceedings of a Workshop Held in Honour of Pandit R. Varadadesikan,
> Collection Indologie n? 124, Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry / Ecole
> fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient.
>
> Regarding the two types of ve?p?,
> there is an interesting article by V.S. Rajam
>
> Rajam, V.S., 1992, ?The Evolution of Ve?p? as an Independent Entity?,
> pp. 163-184 in PILC Jourrnal of Dravidic Studies, Pondicherry Institute
> of Linguistics and Culture, Volume 2:2, Pondicherry.
>
> It might be available online somewhere, but I do not have the URL at hand.
>
> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (still in Paris)
>
> "https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"
>
> "https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"
>
> "https://twitter.com/JLC1956"
>
>
>
>
>
> On 28/07/2015 09:35, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote:
>> Dear Palaniappan,
>>
>>
>> Maybe Indira Peterson is referring to what is most frequently seen.
>>
>>
>> Metrical treatises codify (and name) many theoretical possibilities
>> but many of those "possibilities" are extremely rare (and found only as
>> examples inside treatises), which is why, when writing about Tamil meter
>> in a series of article, I have tried to make statistics.
>>
>>
>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (about to fly from Paris to India)
>>
>>
>> "https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"
>>
>> "https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"
>>
>> "https://twitter.com/JLC1956"
>>
>>
>>
>> On 28/07/2015 09:13, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>> On p. 188 of the earlier referenced article, Indira Peterson says, ?In
>>> Dravidian vernacular poetic texts, initial rhyme occurs at the beginning
>>> of and within the line of poetry, while second-consonant or -syllable
>>> rhyme is placed only at the beginning of the line of poetry, i.e., yati
>>> is a line-internal rhyme pattern, while pr?sa is line-external.? This is
>>> not correct as far as Tamil is concerned. The second syllable rhyme can
>>> also occur within a line in different patterns. Assuming there are are
>>> four feet in a line, the second-syllable rhyming can occur in different
>>> patterns such as between feet 1 and 2; 1 and 3; 1 and 4; 1, 2, and 3; 1,
>>> 3, and 4; 1, 2, and 4; and 1, 2, 3, and 4.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)

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From hr at ivs.edu  Tue Jul 28 14:02:44 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 16:02:44 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <55B71D0F.90900@indica-et-buddhica.org>
Message-ID: <1438092243-6025465.77464004.ft6SE2lS7003062@rs143.luxsci.com>

I apologize if I was unclear. I did not mean that I or anyone else should advocate a sectarian view on this forum. I meant that a person committed to a particular metaphysical worldview, as we all are consciously or unconsciously, may still scrupulously adhere to principles of good, fair scholarship.

I have been on this list for several years, and you can easily check to see if I have done this or not. I believe I have.

Best,
Howard

> On Jul 28, 2015, at 8:11 AM, Richard Mahoney <r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org> wrote:
> 
> On 28/07/15 17:12, Geoffrey Samuel wrote:
>> There is perhaps a distinction between being a spiritual practitioner
>> and being an advocate. But in my experience neither excludes genuine
>> scholarship, and I would regret it if people such as Howard were to
>> feel they had to withdraw from the list. We need a plurality of
>> perspectives.
>> 
>> In any case, I suspect there are quite a few people on the list who 
>> would have to withdraw if that criterion were applied 
>> systematically.
>> 
>> The level of rhetorical aggression displayed on the list over the 
>> last few days seems to me both inappropriate and thoroughly 
>> uncollegial.
> 
> Agreed -- and apart from finding all of this incomprehensible -- I've
> also been wondering about the extent to which historiography is being
> included in undergrad courses.
> 
> R
> 
> 
> -- 
> Richard Mahoney
> 
> Littledene  Bay Road  Oxford  NZ
> M: +64-21-064-0216  T: +64-3-312-1699
> r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)






From hr at ivs.edu  Tue Jul 28 14:17:58 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 16:17:58 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <VI1PR02MB08777ADAFFD82156B36B1618FF8D0@VI1PR02MB0877.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <1438093144-4156465.65839964.ft6SEI45T002705@rs143.luxsci.com>

My sincere thanks to Geoffrey, Dominik, and Frederick for their encouraging comments which convinced me to stay.

Howard


> On Jul 28, 2015, at 7:12 AM, Geoffrey Samuel <SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk> wrote:
> 
> There is perhaps a distinction between being a spiritual practitioner and being an advocate. But in my experience neither excludes genuine scholarship, and I would regret it if people such as Howard were to feel they had to withdraw from the list. We need a plurality of perspectives. 
> 
> In any case, I suspect there are quite a few people on the list who would have to withdraw if that criterion were applied systematically.
> 
> The level of rhetorical aggression displayed on the list over the last few days seems to me both inappropriate and thoroughly uncollegial. 
> 
> Geoffrey
> 
> ________________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu>
> Sent: 28 July 2015 05:33
> To: Robert Zydenbos
> Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
> 
> Ironically, when Malhotra argues that a non-believer, or non-practitioner, is unqualified to analyze a religious or spiritual tradition, many on this list respond with an almost vicious attack on him. Yet when someone on the List claims that a spiritual practioner, and advocate, cannot be a good academic scholar, apriori, this apparently is acceptable.
> 
> If this is indeed the case, I will respectfully withdraw from the List.
> 
> Best,
> Howard
> 
>> On Jul 28, 2015, at 12:51 AM, Robert Zydenbos <zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>> 
>> Howard Resnick wrote:
>> 
>>> [...]
>>> Unfortunately, you got the Indianzing backward. Here is my quote from
>>> the article you sent us:
>>> 
>>> ?We were trying to do something which could not be done, and that is
>>> trying to Indian-ize the world in the name of Krishna,? Resnick said.
>> 
>> My impression is that you are still trying to Indianize, but partially;
>> not so much in externalities, but in thought, Weltanschauung. Otherwise
>> there would be no point in your Krishna West.
>> 
>> And here I want to point out what can be read in one of the comments to
>> that online article:
>> 
>> "This kind of "Hindu evangelism" is what scholar-practitioner Rajiv
>> Malhotra refers to as a "U-Turn." These people benefit enormously from
>> Hinduism and basically proceed to turn their backs on it while they go
>> mainstream. They should be exposed for the frauds that they are."
>> 
>> I only know this from this online comment by a person I do not know, and
>> I have no idea just where and how Malhotra has stated that people like
>> you are 'frauds'. (But I think we recognize the style.) If this is
>> correct, then it looks like he wants to 'take back' Hare Krishna too.
>> (So better take care.)
>> 
>>> [...] My concern with
>>> meta-epistemological issues as they manifest in insider and outsider
>>> perspectives, and subsequently impact Indology, and the general study of
>>> sacred traditions, is not really ?nit-picking.?
>> 
>> Sorry, I think we have a little misunderstanding here. My remark about
>> 'nit-picking' referred to your reaction to Dominik in the thread, which
>> I left quoted at the bottom of my post. But I see that Dominik himself
>> already responded in the same spirit.
>> 
>>> All the best,
>> 
>> RZ
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
>> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
>> Department f?r Asienstudien
>> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU)
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 






From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 15:07:22 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 20:37:22 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable	rhyming?
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eYd2vFay2+0g=xCLw-LjUo3eKmUaFH1H8kgXN64wguc0g@mail.gmail.com>

Let me respond to North-South part here, second syllable rhyming part in
the next post.

Prof. Goodall said:

>The South seems always long to have been more conscious of the North than the North has been of the South.

1. dakshiNAnila for malyAnila is a usage found throughout Sanskrit
literature and other literatures northern and southern.

2. Bhatrihari mentions dAkShiNAtyas in

?? ?????????????????? ??????? ??????????? /

????? ?????????????? ???????????? ?????????? // ?????_????? //


similar mention of dAkShiNAtya, dakShiNa may be remembered by other
list members.

-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 15:23:43 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 20:53:43 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable	rhyming?
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eZWm2SGbc-G1HYxrjO_4O2Bfx2JYtRSshMVYrQ761TRNQ@mail.gmail.com>

Now second syllable rhyming:

In Telugu, the second syllable rhyming is one of the chandoniyamas specific
only to Sanskrit borrowed meters such as utpalamAla, champakamAla,
mattEbhavikrIDita, s'ArdUlavikrIDita and so on. As such all the Telugu
verses in Sanskrit-borrowed meters right from those found in the eighth
century inscriptions till date invariably have second syllable rhyming.
This rhyming is given the tatsama name prAsa.

It applies to a   meter kandamu (<skandha)too,  believed to be prAkrit
-borrowed and  derived from  a variety of AryA.

This niyama does not apply to native Telugu meters.

-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From slaje at kabelmail.de  Tue Jul 28 15:51:05 2015
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 17:51:05 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eYd2vFay2+0g=xCLw-LjUo3eKmUaFH1H8kgXN64wguc0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nXY0MZ0_rkiX8LKDtzGqSfRHOy7_F6nOCc+RosWFrsQAQ@mail.gmail.com>

This might be of some interest to some, too:

Bha??a Jayanta (a *northener* from Kashmir) makes a remark which has a
bearing on the habitats of camels at his time: *southerners* *who were not
acquainted with the sight of camels* were perplexed when they unexpectedly
chanced upon them walking in single file, as caravans do:

*pa?yaty anugata? r?pam avij??te ?pi v?cake | d?k?i??tya iv?kasm?t pa?yann
u??rapara?par?m* (NM (1) 283, 2 f.).


Abhinavagupta (from the same region) makes two similar remarks on *the
perplexity of southerners observing caravans or the long neck of camels for
the first time*: *an?locitopapattikam anavalokit?rthakriy?kam api
d?k?i??tyasya iva karabhacakram*. ?PVV Vol. 2, 347, 10 f. (ad 1.7.4)

*d?k?i??tyo** hi na karabhasya gr?v?m?tra? smarati; karabho hi
d?k?i??tyasya vismayasvabh?va? sukha? *[...]* janayet*. ?PVV Vol. 3, 58, 2
f.; 14 f. (ad 2.2.5).



Regards,

WS

-----------------------------
Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
D-99425 Weimar
Deutschland

Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor
studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum
non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam,
sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus
humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat.
Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII.

2015-07-28 17:07 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:

> Let me respond to North-South part here, second syllable rhyming part in
> the next post.
>
> Prof. Goodall said:
>
> >The South seems always long to have been more conscious of the North than the North has been of the South.
>
> 1. dakshiNAnila for malyAnila is a usage found throughout Sanskrit literature and other literatures northern and southern.
>
> 2. Bhatrihari mentions dAkShiNAtyas in
>
> ?? ?????????????????? ??????? ??????????? /
>
> ????? ?????????????? ???????????? ?????????? // ?????_????? //
>
>
> similar mention of dAkShiNAtya, dakShiNa may be remembered by other list members.
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 16:49:47 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 22:19:47 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable	rhyming?
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eati7hQjk5x=AdkB9zyHzn3bn23dZq2558kmJewdRpFgQ@mail.gmail.com>

Prof. Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote :

yati is a line-internal rhyme pattern, while pr?sa is line-external.?
(-Indira Peterson).

This is not correct as far as Tamil is concerned. The second syllable
rhyme can also occur within a line in different patterns. Assuming
there are are four feet in a line, the second-syllable rhyming can
occur in different patterns such as between feet 1 and 2; 1 and 3; 1
and 4; 1, 2, and 3; 1, 3, and 4; 1, 2, and 4; and 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Even in Telugu, there is a 'line-integral' (intra-line?) second
syllable rhyming. But that is an optional provision as alternative to
first syllable rhyming called ' akshara maitri in yati' or just
'yati'. The optional provision of second syllable rhyming as
alternative to first syllable rhyming is called 'prAsayati'.

This provision is only for native Telugu meters (meters not borrowed
from Sankrit or Prakrit). In the description of Prof. Sudalaimuthu
Palaniappan for Tamil, the rule for this is in terms of the order of
the foot (first, second etc.) within a line unlike in the case of
Sanskrit borrowed meters where the rule is in terms of  the order of
the syllable within a line. This provision applies to Geyams
(?????????????) and Telugu songs of Carnatic Music too.

Thus it may be seen that inter-line second syllable rhyming is a nitya
(inescapable) rule for Sanskrit-borrowed meters, the intra-line second
syllable rhyme is an optional provision for the native Telugu meters.


-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From m.gluckman at anu.edu.au  Tue Jul 28 18:15:43 2015
From: m.gluckman at anu.edu.au (Martin Gluckman)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 23:45:43 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Digital_Edition_of_Laghusiddh=C4=81ntakaumud=C4=AB_(James_R_Ballantyne_Translation)?=
Message-ID: <CA+wUuzM2Mf9C4ATJ5V+d7oK+URD0KaMEFm53L2u+tr-jjVygbg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,

I am looking for a digital version (not a photo scan but a keyed in or
edited OCR-ed version) of Laghusiddh?ntakaumud? (James R Ballantyne
Translation or any other if not the Ballantyne edition).

If anyone knows of any such edition or something similar I would most
appreciate.

Kindest Wishes,

Martin


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From davidpaolo.pierdominicileao at uniroma1.it  Tue Jul 28 20:05:38 2015
From: davidpaolo.pierdominicileao at uniroma1.it (David Pierdominici)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 15 22:05:38 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request
Message-ID: <F0ED9F78-F1F2-4A4A-944B-4E0018B86105@uniroma1.it>

Dear members,

I?m searching for this edition:

Cola Camp? of Vir?p?k?a, Edited with Critical Introduction and Notes by V. Raghavan, Tanjore Saraswati Mahal Series n.55, Madras 1951

Does anyone have a PDF scan copy of this work?
Thanks to all,

David Pierdominici


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 04:53:49 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 10:23:49 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable	rhyming
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eb=nXTxGQuCov9wMN3Fgj=b=_TYwvmK8YvzxJ=OBhXnxw@mail.gmail.com>

Mr Nityanand Mishra who is on this list, shared on another list

Excerpt from his post:


The same practice is also followed in all the 19 verses in ??????? metre in
the ??????????????????, as shown in red below ?

?? ?????????? ???????? ????????? ????????????

?????????????? ??????????? ???????????? ????? ????? ??-?? ?

?????????????????? ???????? ????? ????????

????????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???????? ??-?? ?

?????????? ???????? ??????????? ???????????

???????? ??????????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????????? ??-?? ?

?????????? ??????? ????? ??????????????? ??????? ??????

????????????? ????????????? ????????? ???? ???????? ??-?? ?

???????? ?? ??????????? ?? ??????????? ???????????????

?? ????????? ?? ?????? ???? ? ????????? ????????????? ??-?? ?

???? ?????? ?? ??????????? ??????????? ??????? ???

??? ???? ???? ???????????? ?????? ??? ????????? ???? ??-?? ?

?????????? ??????????? ????????????? ???????????? ???????

???????? ???? ????? ????? ???????????????? ??????? ?????? ??-?? ?

??? ???? ??? ???????????? ??????? ????????????? ?????

??????????? ???? ???????? ????????? ??? ???? ????? ??-?? ?

????????????????????? ???????? ?????? ??????

???? ?? ??? ?????????? ?????????? ????? ??????? ??-?? ?

??????????? ????????? ???? ??????????????? ?? ?????

?????????? ??????? ?????????????????????? ?????? ??-?? ?

???? ????????????????????? ???? ???????????????????

???? ???????????????????????? ?????????? ??????? ??-?? ?

?????????? ??????????? ????????? ??????????????

?????????????????? ???????????? ? ?? ???????? ?????? ??-?? ?

?????????????????? ??? ???????????? ??????? ????

????????????????????? ?????????? ??????????? ??? ??-?? ?

??? ??????? ???????? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ????????

? ?? ???? ?? ?????????????? ??? ?? ???????? ??????????????? ??-?? ?

? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ? ???? ? ?? ?????? ?? ????

? ?????????? ?? ??? ?????? ??????????????????? ??-?? ?

? ??? ?????? ??????????? ? ???? ??? ??????? ???

?? ? ??????? ???????? ???? ???????? ??? ?? ??? ??-?? ?

??? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ?? ??? ???????????????

??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???????? ??-?? ?

???????????? ???????????? ??????????? ?????????????

???????????????????????? ??? ??????? ????????????? ??-?? ?

???????????????????????????????????????????

????????????????? ?????? ??????????? ??????????? ??-???





-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From nakeerthi at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 04:57:20 2015
From: nakeerthi at gmail.com (naresh keerthi)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 10:27:20 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use	2nd-syllable rhyming?
Message-ID: <CACcR+FBvfFsEVCGO98B79RVc6nStnePDDmCWjz1MsQEqbM1SJg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

The use of second syllable rhyme [that the Kannada grammar kavirAjamarga
calls Adi-prAsa, and anomalously referred to as dvitIyAkSara-prAsa in later
texts ] is indeed a feature particular to South India.

Another compulsory feature of SI poetry [classical poetry in Kannada,
Tamil, Telugu for sure, I don't know enough about Malayalam classical
poetry] is the marking of the yati caesura by a feature called
akSara-maitri, wherein the first letter of the line and the letter after
the caesura are same, or similar.

This feature of poetry seems to have eventually percolated into
recitative/performative forms that were half-way between poems and songs,
as well as into genres that were entirely song like.

However it would be useful if someone can point to a treatise that
prescribes such features for the song-like genres. the kavi-rAja-marga does
set the rules down for verse in Kannada in certain terms. I am inclined to
believe that there must be separate if related rules for the composition of
poetry and song, even if the genres are somewhat related.

The songs of muttuswAmi dIkSita [18th Century] that Indira Peterson
discusses, are coming as part of a long tradition of kIrtana song genres
that have followed the prAsa rule with various degrees of rigour, from the
15th century onwards. dIkSita indeed follows the practise of Adi-prAsa and
yati religiously.

dIkSita's contemporary SwAti tirunAl, a literary-minded ruler of Travancore
put together a manual  with rules for musical compositions titled
muhanaprAsa-antaprAsa-vyavasthA.

The example given from the BhAgavata - the gopika gItam [jayati te'dhikam
etc..] is not really an akSara-vRtta. Neither is Jayadeva's magnum opus.
Nor are the Apabhramsa gItis that Prof Tieken refers to,  or the songs of
muttuswAmi dikSita.


I have been collecting examples of  (Sanskrit) verses that demonstrate such
Southern features as Adi-prAsa and/or aksara-maitri for yati. As was
pointed out in the essay by Shulman and Bronner, such examples abound in
the Sanskrit poetry of South Indian Sanskrit poets; who had significant
exposure to non-Sanskrit classical literature.

Examples can be found in the stotra literature, in Jagannatha PanditarAja,
VenkaTanatha and so on.

Find below one such example from the end of NArAyaNa BhaTTa's MAnameyodaya
-

kRSNo' vibudhAdhipatir
niSNAto vitaraNeSu vidyAyAH |
muSNAtu hRdaya-timiram
puSNAtu sakalAni ca maGgalAni || abhAva-nirNaya verse #6 ||


Best,
Naresh Keerthi,
National Institute of Advanced Studies,
Bangalore


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 05:04:12 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 10:34:12 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebRKn2Tb+aJEh20BJ2ne7eHtwAS0F22dCV4NKt7vus9KQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sri Nityanand Mishraji highlights many other chitrakaviva and alankAra
aspects of both gopIgItam and bhArgavarAghavIyam.
Following is from his post:

Please see entry number 4 on page 179 in my second prosody appendix
(Appendix II) of the ?r?bh?rgavar?ghav?yam. I have attached the scan of the
page, the PDF can be downloaded here ?

http://jagadgururambhadracharya.org/pdfs/JR2002Sribhargavaraghaviyam.pdf

??????? is ? ? ? ? ? x 4, with the caesura (???) after the sixth syllable.
Another name of the metre is ?????????.

Examples ?

1) From the ?????????

???? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ??????? ???????? ???

???? ???????? ?????? ???????????? ????????????? ?????????? ??. ??-??-? ?

This is ?????? ??????? (embedding the name of the metre in the verse). Also
note the beauty that is obtained with the two parts of a foot beginning
with the same consonant, i.e. the first and seventh syllables of each foot
begin with the same consonant (???? and ??????, ????? and ??????, ???? and
??????, ????? and ??????).

2) Nineteen verses from the twentieth canto of ?????????????????? (??-?? to
??-??), here I produce the last one ?

???????????????????????????????????????????

????????????????? ?????? ??????????? ??????????? ??-?? ?

Once again, ?????? ??????? (embedding the name of the metre in the verse)
is present with the name ?????????. Also, both parts of each foot begin
with the same consonant (???- and ??????-, ???- and ???-, ???- and ?????, ???
and ?????). All other 18 verses follow the same pattern of first and
seventh syllable of each quarter beginning with the same consonant.

Others can be read here ?

http://jagadgururambhadracharya.org/works/sbr/sarga20.php

-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 07:15:38 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 12:45:38 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable	rhyming
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebiZsrbuDSDAqdC0i9wnsoK0cYYobWzE+YgFgRA4s5wkw@mail.gmail.com>

Sri Naresh Keerthi wrote :

>This feature of poetry seems to have eventually percolated into
recitative/performative forms that were half-way between poems and songs,
as well as into genres that were entirely song like.

----- Both first syllable and second syllable intraline rhymings are
features found in proverbs, riddles and other verbal folklore
forms functioning as auditory aesthetic forms serving as memorising tools
for the tradition-bearers of these oral traditions.

It is more reasonable to expect a sharing of this feature by the native
verse-meters and lyrical forms with the folklore forms or diffusion of
these features from the verbal folklore forms and folk songs into
verse-meters rather than from verse-meters into song-forms.



-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk  Wed Jul 29 08:23:43 2015
From: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk (Rohana Seneviratne)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 08:23:43 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request
In-Reply-To: <F0ED9F78-F1F2-4A4A-944B-4E0018B86105@uniroma1.it>
Message-ID: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B1730B9@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>

Just uploaded here

https://archive.org/details/Colacampu-of-Virupaksa


Best Wishes,
Rohana
------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of David Pierdominici [davidpaolo.pierdominicileao at uniroma1.it]
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 9:05 PM
To: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request

Dear members,

I?m searching for this edition:


Cola Camp? of Vir?p?k?a, Edited with Critical Introduction and Notes by V. Raghavan, Tanjore Saraswati Mahal Series n.55, Madras 1951

Does anyone have a PDF scan copy of this work?
Thanks to all,

David Pierdominici


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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Wed Jul 29 08:46:34 2015
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 10:46:34 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eY5uBTP7i9aoa7TxeXMeuHbtwzUssrMmm2Fa8kPu8jGJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55B892EA.7010206@uni-muenchen.de>

Dear Prof. Paturi,

Since these remarks of yours have until now remained unanswered, I am taking the liberty to write a few words.

Nagaraj Paturi wrote:

> Let us imagine traditional Sanskrit scholars of India build a new
> s'Astra called amerikAdhyayanas'Astra, amerikAs'Astra in short. The
> s'Astra follows praMANas, tarkapaddhati/vAdapaddhati, paribhAshAs, and
> all other essential features of a s'Astra to study American society.

The comparison is partly wrong, because (just to point out the most
obvious omission) in order to study America properly, one would need
knowledge of the English language ? just as Indologists who want to be
taken seriously learn relevant Indian languages.

In reality there already exists an amerik?dhyayana??stra: here in
Germany, my university offers a course of studies called "Amerikanistik"
(http://www.en.amerikanistik.uni-muenchen.de/index.html). The university
at Augsburg offers "Kanada-Studien"
(http://www.uni-augsburg.de/institute/kanada/ ? apparently a word like
'Kanadistik' or 'Kanadologie' did not sound nice in the opinion of the
Augsburgers. See also http://www.kanada-studien.org/angebote-fur-studierende/virtual-canadian-studies/). Multiple parallel examples can be given from other
universities not only in Germany, but across Europe.

I am not aware of any American businessmen, enjoying the benefits of
living in Germany, who react to such studies in anger and revile German Amerikanisten.

(Nor am I aware of any Americans and Canadians who plagiarize several
portions from the writings of a German researcher and then state that in
earlier times the 'English character set' did not contain quotation marks.)

> Let us imagine s'Astra becomes THE method of study for all academics
> in America.

Is this realistic? Could you explain why and how this one method of
study would necessarily become the only one (in your illustration, not
only in India, which is already odd enough, but also in America?).

Perhaps I should repeat what I wrote last Friday: "Mr Malhotra shouts
that Indians must take back the study of Indian culture? What nonsense.
Real traditional studies were never taken away from them. Or did all the
p??ha??l?s, the gurukulas, the Sanskrit Colleges disappear? And I know
of a fact that what is taught in Indian universities is not (and cannot
be) a mindless copy of what is taught in Western universities." I do not
know Hyderabad, but I find it hard to imagine that things are different there.

Amerikanistik, the discipline that seeks to improve the understanding of
America in the German-speaking part of Europe, is part of a much larger
humanistic effort to understand humanity (vasudhaiva ku?umbakam, is it
not?), and Indology is another part of it.

Well-founded criticism from all sides is always welcome, and this
already is an established practice. What Mr Malhotra does is something else.

RZ



-- 
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
Department f?r Asienstudien
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU)






From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 09:05:13 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 14:35:13 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <55B892EA.7010206@uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebW0JoTj1Qx4u=0Opkyb5MNx70G0LBFvYha-nqfSXzKhg@mail.gmail.com>

> Let us imagine s'Astra becomes THE method of study for all academics
> in America.
>Is this realistic?

Sentences used hypothetically in a communication intended to suggest
empathetic (getting into the other side's shoes) understanding need not be
realistic.

Rest is self-explanatory on the same lines.

This was a method-related discussion, limited to that.



On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Robert Zydenbos <zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de>
wrote:

> Dear Prof. Paturi,
>
> Since these remarks of yours have until now remained unanswered, I am
> taking the liberty to write a few words.
>
> Nagaraj Paturi wrote:
>
> > Let us imagine traditional Sanskrit scholars of India build a new
> > s'Astra called amerikAdhyayanas'Astra, amerikAs'Astra in short. The
> > s'Astra follows praMANas, tarkapaddhati/vAdapaddhati, paribhAshAs, and
> > all other essential features of a s'Astra to study American society.
>
> The comparison is partly wrong, because (just to point out the most
> obvious omission) in order to study America properly, one would need
> knowledge of the English language ? just as Indologists who want to be
> taken seriously learn relevant Indian languages.
>
> In reality there already exists an amerik?dhyayana??stra: here in
> Germany, my university offers a course of studies called "Amerikanistik"
> (http://www.en.amerikanistik.uni-muenchen.de/index.html). The university
> at Augsburg offers "Kanada-Studien"
> (http://www.uni-augsburg.de/institute/kanada/ ? apparently a word like
> 'Kanadistik' or 'Kanadologie' did not sound nice in the opinion of the
> Augsburgers. See also
> http://www.kanada-studien.org/angebote-fur-studierende/virtual-canadian-studies/).
> Multiple parallel examples can be given from other
> universities not only in Germany, but across Europe.
>
> I am not aware of any American businessmen, enjoying the benefits of
> living in Germany, who react to such studies in anger and revile German
> Amerikanisten.
>
> (Nor am I aware of any Americans and Canadians who plagiarize several
> portions from the writings of a German researcher and then state that in
> earlier times the 'English character set' did not contain quotation marks.)
>
> > Let us imagine s'Astra becomes THE method of study for all academics
> > in America.
>
> Is this realistic? Could you explain why and how this one method of
> study would necessarily become the only one (in your illustration, not
> only in India, which is already odd enough, but also in America?).
>
> Perhaps I should repeat what I wrote last Friday: "Mr Malhotra shouts
> that Indians must take back the study of Indian culture? What nonsense.
> Real traditional studies were never taken away from them. Or did all the
> p??ha??l?s, the gurukulas, the Sanskrit Colleges disappear? And I know
> of a fact that what is taught in Indian universities is not (and cannot
> be) a mindless copy of what is taught in Western universities." I do not
> know Hyderabad, but I find it hard to imagine that things are different
> there.
>
> Amerikanistik, the discipline that seeks to improve the understanding of
> America in the German-speaking part of Europe, is part of a much larger
> humanistic effort to understand humanity (vasudhaiva ku?umbakam, is it
> not?), and Indology is another part of it.
>
> Well-founded criticism from all sides is always welcome, and this
> already is an established practice. What Mr Malhotra does is something
> else.
>
> RZ
>
>
>
> --
> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
> Department f?r Asienstudien
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU)
>
>


-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 10:24:06 2015
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 12:24:06 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] meters and songs: the Vedas /// Re: Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoBo9e39J0CwoSSpF2_j+5USe1P5LQDCCcrtb=udYYHm0w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Prof Paturi,
Re: the statement which you forwarded, apparently with approval. This is
purely hypothetical and beyond verification as the oldest text sufficiently
attested that uses and reflects on verse-meters,
the Rgveda, is also permeated by the knowledge and employment of
"song-forms": saamans (Frits Staal's theory on the Saamaveda therefore
needs modification). It was observed long ago by Oldenberg that the oldest
textbook of the Saamaveda is the Rgveda itself: large parts are apparently
from the beginning composed for the sake of "Saamavedic" employment.
The absence of even a trace of Saamans and Saamaveda in the Avestan
tradition vs. its pervasive presence in the Vedic tradition is remarkable
and not compensated by the presence in both traditions of the genre of the
Gaatha.
Jan Houben



*Jan E.M. HOUBEN*

Directeur d??tudes

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

*?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques

CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

www.ephe.fr


On 29 July 2015 at 09:15, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sri Naresh Keerthi wrote :
>
> >This feature of poetry seems to have eventually percolated into
> recitative/performative forms that were half-way between poems and songs,
> as well as into genres that were entirely song like.
>
> ----- Both first syllable and second syllable intraline rhymings are
> features found in proverbs, riddles and other verbal folklore
> forms functioning as auditory aesthetic forms serving as memorising tools
> for the tradition-bearers of these oral traditions.
>
> It is more reasonable to expect a sharing of this feature by the native
> verse-meters and lyrical forms with the folklore forms or diffusion of
> these features from the verbal folklore forms and folk songs into
> verse-meters rather than from verse-meters into song-forms.
>
>
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Wed Jul 29 10:52:15 2015
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 10:52:15 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoCNEhWixP8W4A0VeOzO_m4qVrxULc38QEeS9KtaATG8Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522C705AD@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear list members,
To clear up a possible misunderstanding: in the publications I cited I do not provide examples of rhyme. In the message I react to Dominic Goodall's claim that the various types of rhyme as found in the Bhagavatapurana are first attested in Tamil Bhakti poetry and *therefore* point to a South Indian origin of the text. As I have tried to show in the publications mentioned, Tamil Bhakti poetry used song types typical of Prakrit/Apabhramsa literature, e.g., catuspada and lasya, on the one hand (examples also found in the Kalittokai), and caccari, on the other (examples also found in the Paripatal, the kuravai poems in the Kalittokai). So how can we be certain that the instances of rhyme in the Bhagavatapurana were inspired by Tamil literature and not directly by Indo-Aryan literature, this, irrespective of whether this influence took place in North or South India? In any case, Sanskrit, Prakrit and Apabhramsa literature were well known in the south as well, from at least the 8th or 9th century AD onwards, as shown by the so-called Old Tamil Cankam literature.
Best, Herman


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: Jan E.M. Houben [jemhouben at gmail.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 28 juli 2015 13:04
Aan: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?

Dag Herman,
This is an interesting observation, no doubt relevant for the history of the intertwined sanskritic and prakritic traditions (and yes, the traditions of tamil kannada malayalam language metrics/poetics and literature are also somehow intertwined, but how).
Do you have any examples as illustration for those who do not have the mentioned publications on their lap (or in their laptop)?
Hartelijke groet,
jan


     [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B-TN0Ek0VfGDX1RqVTJKdjBuWWs&revid=0B-TN0Ek0VfGDdVF4aXhNb1F5czA4bFhBRzI1S2l3UitFeFBjPQ]

Jan E.M. HOUBEN

Directeur d??tudes

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes

Sciences historiques et philologiques

54, rue Saint-Jacques

CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr<mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

www.ephe.fr<http://www.ephe.fr>

On 28 July 2015 at 10:15, Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl<mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>> wrote:

Dominic Goodall wrote:


?Second-syllable rhyming, in which just the consonant of the second syllable of each verse-quarter is rhymed, is abundantly present in post-Sangam Tamil literature and ubiquitous (or, if not, at least pretty nearly so) in the devotional literature of the ??v?rs and N?ya?m?rs, while being extremely rare in Sanskrit verse composition.?


For such instances of rhyming in Indo-Aryan literature rather than to Sanskrit verse composition we should to the Pr?krit and Apabhra??a ?song? literature. As I have argued elsewhere Tamil devotional literature borrowed from Pr?krit and Apabhra??a models. See, apart from the relevant chapters in my K?vya in South India. Old Tamil Ca?kam Poetry from 2001, ?Bhoja's ?r??g?raprak??a and the kuravai poems in Kalittokai?, in Kannan M. and Jennifer Clare, Passages: relationships between Tamil and Sanskrit, 145-162, and ?Songs accompanied by so-called bha?it?s in dramatic texts?, in Karin Steiner and Heidrun Br?ckner, Indisches Theater: Text, Theorie, Praxis, 63-75.


As to Jayadeva?s G?tagovinda, may I quote myself?:


?Its composite nature marks the Gitagovinda as a literary experiment. In fact, this is evident in yet another respect, namely the use of Sanskrit. For, both genres combined in the G?tagovinda, namely the l?sya and catu?pad?, were in Pr?krit. The G?tagovinda is a ?translation? into Sanskrit of an original Pr?krit type of composition. Interestingly, as such the G?tagovinda does not stand on its own. A similar development is seen in the ?ry?sapta?at?, a Sanskrit translation of the Pr?krit Sattasa?. It cannot be a coincidence that the author of the ?ry?sapta?at?, a certain Govardhana, was patronized by the same Bengali king Lak?ma?asena who was believed to have been the patron of Jayadeva (see Pischel 1893).?


(?The Genre of Yayadeva's G?tagovinda? in Cracow Indological Studies, Vols 4/5, 586-608, esp. p. 605.)


Herman Tieken



Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>] namens Andrew Ollett [andrew.ollett at gmail.com<mailto:andrew.ollett at gmail.com>]
Verzonden: dinsdag 28 juli 2015 7:14
Aan: Dominic Goodall
CC: Indology List
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?

Second-syllable rhyme is also a sine qua non in Kannada poetry, and Jayak?rti uses it in his definitions/examples (all in Sanskrit) of different verse-forms in the Chandonu??sana (ca. 1000 CE)---not just in the seventh chapter, where J. exemplifies some Kannada meters, but also occasionally in the sixth, which treats of Prakrit and Apabhra??a meters.

According to Yigal Bronner and David Shulman ("A Cloud Turned Goose" in IESHR 43 in 2006), it's also used in later Sanskrit works by Tamil authors (??kalya Malla's Ud?rar?ghava and N?laka??ha D?k?ita's ?ival?l?r?ava).



On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Dominic Goodall <dominic.goodall at gmail.com<mailto:dominic.goodall at gmail.com>> wrote:
A late reaction to an earlier thread.

Setting aside the question of dating, which is so often contentious, I am always *amazed* when people tell me that they are not convinced that the Bh?gavatapur??a is a Southern production.  The work is full of Southern touches, many of which have been pointed out by a variety of scholars over the last century.  Yes, ok, there are also Northern touches, but why should that be surprising for a Southern work ?  The South seems always long to have been more conscious of the North than the North has been of the South.  It is full, for example, of rather long-standing Northern sacred toponyms (Tenkasi = ?Benares of the South?; Madurai = Mathur?, etc.; and, of course Southern rivers are regularly equated with the Ga?g? and Yamun?), whereas there are no old instances of a ?Northern? K??c? or ?r?ra?gam or Chidambam, nor of the "K?ver? of the North?.

Or are there ?

Similarly, the high literary style of the Bh?gavata, involving, in some parts, a high concentration of Vedic archaisms seems sometimes to be mentioned as though it were a factor that might suggest high antiquity and a provenance somewhere in the North.  But at what time in any part of the Sanskritic world would Vedic literature not have been prestigious and accessible to Veda-knowers seeking to write in a consciously archaising style?

But what about an element of style that not nearly as many authors would have been similarly motivated to copy ?

Second-syllable rhyming, in which just the consonant of the second syllable of each verse-quarter is rhymed, is abundantly present in post-Sangam Tamil literature and ubiquitous (or, if not, at least pretty nearly so) in the devotional literature of the ??v?rs and N?ya?m?rs, while being extremely rare in Sanskrit verse composition.  An example will make this clear:

BhP_10.31.001/1 jayati te 'dhika? janman? vraja? ?rayata indir? ?a?vad atra hi
BhP_10.31.001/3 dayita d??yat?? dik?u t?vak?s tvayi dh?t?savas tv?? vicinvate
BhP_10.31.002/1 ?aradud??aye s?dhuj?tasatsarasijodara?r?mu?? d???
BhP_10.31.002/3 suratan?tha te '?ulkad?sik? varada nighnato neha ki? vadha?
BhP_10.31.003/1 vi?ajal?pyay?d vy?lar?k?as?d var?am?rut?d vaidyut?nal?t
BhP_10.31.003/3 v??amay?tmaj?d vi?vato bhay?d ??abha te vaya? rak?it? muhu?
BhP_10.31.004/1 na khalu gop?k?nandano bhav?n akhiladehin?m antar?tmad?k
BhP_10.31.004/3 vikhanas?rthito vi?vaguptaye sakha udeyiv?n s?tvat?? kule

I had long thought that this argument, expressed in 1996, would be a clincher, at least for the devotional verses in which second-syllable rhyming occurs, for proving Southernness, since I don?t know of any other Sanskrit works that use this feature.

But Sanskrit literature is vast, hence this appeal:

Does anyone know of any other Sanskrit works that use such 2nd-syllable rhyming?



Dominic Goodall
?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient,
19, rue Dumas,
Pondicherry 605001
Tel. +91 413 2334539<tel:%2B91%20413%202334539>



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From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl  Wed Jul 29 11:02:50 2015
From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 11:02:50 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Zero project]
Message-ID: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9BC21767C@PEXMB001B.vu.local>

Call for collaboration

We are seeking collaboration with academics / researchers to launch a broad-based,
multidisciplinary research project on the origin of the zero digit in India.
In order to facilitate such a project, the ZerOrigIndia Foundation, based in the
Netherlands, will soon be starting online campaign comprising three parts: a) an online
petition that may be signed by the general public to indicate support; b) a crowdfunding
component to collect donations from persons wanting to do more than simply endorse the
campaign; c) a crowdsourcing component intended for scholars and researchers, who may
wish to contribute to the cause in terms of ideas and suggestions.

We are setting ourselves the immediate goal of collecting Eu. 400,000, or a multiple
thereof, to finance the training of one or more PhD students in fields related to the research,
preferably under the auspices of a leading institution of higher learning in India but in
collaboration with a counterpart in another country.  The PhD student(s) may thus be Indian
national or hold other nationality.

Please contact us for further details if this research proposal may be of interested to
you or someone in your network.

Background
Human beings have been counting for tens of thousands of years.  But it is only within
past millennia that mathematics proper has been practiced in advanced civilizations.
Place-value systems, including base-10, base-20, base-60 and others, are found early
on, with or without a zero placeholder, that is, a symbol to represent the absence of a digit in a
number.  Numeration systems with a placeholder zero were in use for hundreds of years
without the symbol representing zero being used as actual numeral in its own right.

It is widely agreed that the use of the zero digit not only as placeholder but also as
fully-fledged numeral alongside the other numerals was an unrivaled innovation that
revolutionized mathematics, science and technology.  It is stating the obvious to note that
practically all nations on Earth have since adopted the decimal system including zero, while
few people today are aware where the numbers they use daily came from.
And while there is general agreement among scholars that the decimal system
ubiquitously in use today hails from India, reaching medieval Europe via the Arabs, there is
no consensus as to whether or not the zero digit was an indigenous South Asian invention or
whether it was ?imported? ? either from points further to the West or the East.

Thus there is much conjecture and controversy surrounding the emergence of the zero
digit as numeral and to this day it has never been incontrovertibly established precisely where
and when or in what cultural context the zero digit first appeared, let alone who the individual
was to be credited with its invention - which has been ranked among mankind?s greatest
intellectual feats.

All scholarly books and articles on the subject continually refer to certain basic facts
known about the possible origin of the zero digit without making mention of any recent or on-
going research on the subject.  To date the ZerOrigIndia Foundation has not been able to
establish whether at present there are any research teams devoted to finding any fresh
evidence that may shed light on the issue.

It is against that background that the ZerOrigIndia Foundation, which restricts its
scope to India, has set itself the task of having a properly staffed and funded multidisciplinary
research team of experts take up the challenge of answering the question as to when and
where the zero digit first appeared, and if possible to pinpoint the prevailing cultural
conditions under which the individual thrived, who made this astounding contribution to
progress.

There are still tens of thousands of ancient manuscripts in India and in the world at
large that have not been studied for any clues that may point to the origin of the zero digit.  In
that connection it would be very timely to undertake a concerted effort now to discover what
extant evidence may as yet be produced before crucial manuscripts deteriorate further or are
lost altogether.

I submit this query on behalf of the foundation mentioned above. My e-mail address can be used to provide feedback or information:
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
Victor van Bijlert


________________________________

Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203


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From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl  Wed Jul 29 11:05:09 2015
From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 11:05:09 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY]  Zero Project
Message-ID: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9BC21768B@PEXMB001B.vu.local>

Call for collaboration

We are seeking collaboration with academics / researchers to launch a broad-based,
multidisciplinary research project on the origin of the zero digit in India.
In order to facilitate such a project, the ZerOrigIndia Foundation, based in the
Netherlands, will soon be starting online campaign comprising three parts: a) an online
petition that may be signed by the general public to indicate support; b) a crowdfunding
component to collect donations from persons wanting to do more than simply endorse the
campaign; c) a crowdsourcing component intended for scholars and researchers, who may
wish to contribute to the cause in terms of ideas and suggestions.

We are setting ourselves the immediate goal of collecting Eu. 400,000, or a multiple
thereof, to finance the training of one or more PhD students in fields related to the research,
preferably under the auspices of a leading institution of higher learning in India but in
collaboration with a counterpart in another country.  The PhD student(s) may thus be Indian
national or hold other nationality.

Please contact us for further details if this research proposal may be of interested to
you or someone in your network.

Background
Human beings have been counting for tens of thousands of years.  But it is only within
past millennia that mathematics proper has been practiced in advanced civilizations.
Place-value systems, including base-10, base-20, base-60 and others, are found early
on, with or without a zero placeholder, that is, a symbol to represent the absence of a digit in a
number.  Numeration systems with a placeholder zero were in use for hundreds of years
without the symbol representing zero being used as actual numeral in its own right.

It is widely agreed that the use of the zero digit not only as placeholder but also as
fully-fledged numeral alongside the other numerals was an unrivaled innovation that
revolutionized mathematics, science and technology.  It is stating the obvious to note that
practically all nations on Earth have since adopted the decimal system including zero, while
few people today are aware where the numbers they use daily came from.
And while there is general agreement among scholars that the decimal system
ubiquitously in use today hails from India, reaching medieval Europe via the Arabs, there is
no consensus as to whether or not the zero digit was an indigenous South Asian invention or
whether it was ?imported? ? either from points further to the West or the East.

Thus there is much conjecture and controversy surrounding the emergence of the zero
digit as numeral and to this day it has never been incontrovertibly established precisely where
and when or in what cultural context the zero digit first appeared, let alone who the individual
was to be credited with its invention - which has been ranked among mankind?s greatest
intellectual feats.

All scholarly books and articles on the subject continually refer to certain basic facts
known about the possible origin of the zero digit without making mention of any recent or on-
going research on the subject.  To date the ZerOrigIndia Foundation has not been able to
establish whether at present there are any research teams devoted to finding any fresh
evidence that may shed light on the issue.

It is against that background that the ZerOrigIndia Foundation, which restricts its
scope to India, has set itself the task of having a properly staffed and funded multidisciplinary
research team of experts take up the challenge of answering the question as to when and
where the zero digit first appeared, and if possible to pinpoint the prevailing cultural
conditions under which the individual thrived, who made this astounding contribution to
progress.

There are still tens of thousands of ancient manuscripts in India and in the world at
large that have not been studied for any clues that may point to the origin of the zero digit.  In
that connection it would be very timely to undertake a concerted effort now to discover what
extant evidence may as yet be produced before crucial manuscripts deteriorate further or are
lost altogether.

I submit this query on behalf of the foundation mentioned above. My e-mail address can be used to provide feedback or information:
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
Victor van BijlertCall for collaboration

We are seeking collaboration with academics / researchers to launch a broad-based,
multidisciplinary research project on the origin of the zero digit in India.
In order to facilitate such a project, the ZerOrigIndia Foundation, based in the
Netherlands, will soon be starting online campaign comprising three parts: a) an online
petition that may be signed by the general public to indicate support; b) a crowdfunding
component to collect donations from persons wanting to do more than simply endorse the
campaign; c) a crowdsourcing component intended for scholars and researchers, who may
wish to contribute to the cause in terms of ideas and suggestions.

We are setting ourselves the immediate goal of collecting Eu. 400,000, or a multiple
thereof, to finance the training of one or more PhD students in fields related to the research,
preferably under the auspices of a leading institution of higher learning in India but in
collaboration with a counterpart in another country.  The PhD student(s) may thus be Indian
national or hold other nationality.

Please contact us for further details if this research proposal may be of interested to
you or someone in your network.

Background
Human beings have been counting for tens of thousands of years.  But it is only within
past millennia that mathematics proper has been practiced in advanced civilizations.
Place-value systems, including base-10, base-20, base-60 and others, are found early
on, with or without a zero placeholder, that is, a symbol to represent the absence of a digit in a
number.  Numeration systems with a placeholder zero were in use for hundreds of years
without the symbol representing zero being used as actual numeral in its own right.

It is widely agreed that the use of the zero digit not only as placeholder but also as
fully-fledged numeral alongside the other numerals was an unrivaled innovation that
revolutionized mathematics, science and technology.  It is stating the obvious to note that
practically all nations on Earth have since adopted the decimal system including zero, while
few people today are aware where the numbers they use daily came from.
And while there is general agreement among scholars that the decimal system
ubiquitously in use today hails from India, reaching medieval Europe via the Arabs, there is
no consensus as to whether or not the zero digit was an indigenous South Asian invention or
whether it was ?imported? ? either from points further to the West or the East.

Thus there is much conjecture and controversy surrounding the emergence of the zero
digit as numeral and to this day it has never been incontrovertibly established precisely where
and when or in what cultural context the zero digit first appeared, let alone who the individual
was to be credited with its invention - which has been ranked among mankind?s greatest
intellectual feats.

All scholarly books and articles on the subject continually refer to certain basic facts
known about the possible origin of the zero digit without making mention of any recent or on-
going research on the subject.  To date the ZerOrigIndia Foundation has not been able to
establish whether at present there are any research teams devoted to finding any fresh
evidence that may shed light on the issue.

It is against that background that the ZerOrigIndia Foundation, which restricts its
scope to India, has set itself the task of having a properly staffed and funded multidisciplinary
research team of experts take up the challenge of answering the question as to when and
where the zero digit first appeared, and if possible to pinpoint the prevailing cultural
conditions under which the individual thrived, who made this astounding contribution to
progress.

There are still tens of thousands of ancient manuscripts in India and in the world at
large that have not been studied for any clues that may point to the origin of the zero digit.  In
that connection it would be very timely to undertake a concerted effort now to discover what
extant evidence may as yet be produced before crucial manuscripts deteriorate further or are
lost altogether.

I submit this query on behalf of the foundation mentioned above. My e-mail address can be used to provide feedback or information:
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
Victor van Bijlert


________________________________

Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203


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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Wed Jul 29 16:44:05 2015
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 11:44:05 -0500
Subject: Dating of Old Tamil Cankam Literature
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522C705AD@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <19849609-F8C3-415D-B24B-C9E907C53A37@aol.com>

I would like to know the state of scholarly reception of Prof. Tieken?s dating of Ca?kam literature to the 8th or 9th century CE. I would appreciate if the list members could point to Indologists who agree with Prof. Tieken?s views or publications that cite Prof. Tieken?s dating of Ca?kam literature with approval.

Thanks in advance

Regards,
Palaniappan


> On Jul 29, 2015, at 5:52 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
> 
> Dear list members,
> To clear up a possible misunderstanding: in the publications I cited I do not provide examples of rhyme. In the message I react to Dominic Goodall's claim that the various types of rhyme as found in the Bhagavatapurana are first attested in Tamil Bhakti poetry and *therefore* point to a South Indian origin of the text. As I have tried to show in the publications mentioned, Tamil Bhakti poetry used song types typical of Prakrit/Apabhramsa literature, e.g., catuspada and lasya, on the one hand (examples also found in the Kalittokai), and caccari, on the other (examples also found in the Paripatal, the kuravai poems in the Kalittokai). So how can we be certain that the instances of rhyme in the Bhagavatapurana were inspired by Tamil literature and not directly by Indo-Aryan literature, this, irrespective of whether this influence took place in North or South India? In any case, Sanskrit, Prakrit and Apabhramsa literature were well known in the south as well, from at least the 8th or 9th century AD onwards, as shown by the so-called Old Tamil Cankam literature.
> Best, Herman
> 
> 
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>



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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Wed Jul 29 17:50:24 2015
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 17:50:24 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Dating of Old Tamil Cankam Literature
In-Reply-To: <mailman.520.1438188254.29972.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522C7060B@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear Dr Palaniappan, You ask if there are scholars who agree with the late dates I assign to Cankam poetry. Why do you ask if you already know the answer?  
In this connection I may quote what Francois Gros once, in 1968, wrote about authors who (note that I am unable to insert the accents): "tiennent pour authentiques les donnees legendaires et nous rapportent a dix millenaires av. J.-C." According to Gros "Les discussions serieuses (sic) toutefois tendent a converger sur l'hypothese de compositions originales etalees du IIe au IVe s., la compilation des poemes ....." 
Though going into the other direction, I am put into the category of people not to be taken serious.
Best, Herman


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com

________________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Verzonden: woensdag 29 juli 2015 18:44
Aan: Indology List
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Dating of Old Tamil Cankam Literature

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INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 18:18:33 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 23:48:33 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable	rhyming?
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eYe5xWSLefOhQzidcy154Ck8JyNZL9bz5QctMxL91Xvig@mail.gmail.com>

Sri Naresh Keerti wrote:

>However it would be useful if someone can point to a treatise that

prescribes such features for the song-like genres.


I am attaching snapshots from Sankirtanalakshanamu 15th Century AD
work by Tallapaka Chinatirumalacharyulu

English translation and commentary by Dr Salva Krishnamurty. Biblio
stuff in the cover page below.

The book says Bharata, Dattila  and others say, yati, prasa rules for
songs are in the lines of verse meters only.

But this is an instructional statement where to learn he rules. But is
neither intended to be nor is a historical statement.



-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Wed Jul 29 20:17:54 2015
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 15:17:54 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Dating of Old Tamil Cankam Literature
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6522C7060B@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <DB8CCB4D-D8CB-472D-9B5B-3D6C6DBC00DC@aol.com>

Dear Prof. Tieken,

I asked the question because I did not know the answer. It was a?iy? vi??. Since not many Tamil scholars participate in this list and I may not know the publications of many young scholars of Tamil, I wanted to get an idea of how much traction your views have had over the years. I was especially interested in the views of European scholars who might have published in European journals to which I do not have access.

Thanks

Regards,
Palaniappan


> On Jul 29, 2015, at 12:50 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
> 
> Dear Dr Palaniappan, You ask if there are scholars who agree with the late dates I assign to Cankam poetry. Why do you ask if you already know the answer?  
> In this connection I may quote what Francois Gros once, in 1968, wrote about authors who (note that I am unable to insert the accents): "tiennent pour authentiques les donnees legendaires et nous rapportent a dix millenaires av. J.-C." According to Gros "Les discussions serieuses (sic) toutefois tendent a converger sur l'hypothese de compositions originales etalees du IIe au IVe s., la compilation des poemes ....." 
> Though going into the other direction, I am put into the category of people not to be taken serious.
> Best, Herman
> 
> 
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com
> 
> ________________________________________
> Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
> Verzonden: woensdag 29 juli 2015 18:44
> Aan: Indology List
> Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Dating of Old Tamil Cankam Literature
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)






From Bradley.Clough at mso.umt.edu  Wed Jul 29 20:41:00 2015
From: Bradley.Clough at mso.umt.edu (Clough, Bradley)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 20:41:00 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of Rasavahini?
Message-ID: <350EBEC4-6793-47BB-B57C-044452697C5D@mso.umt.edu>

Dear Colleagues,

Does anyone have a PDF or a copy that they could make into a PDF of the following:

Telwatte Rahula, An Edition of the Rasavahini-Jambudipuppattivathu, Together with an English Translation (Ph.D. dissertation at the Australian National University [Canberra, Australia], date unknown).

Thanks in advance!


Brad

Dr. Bradley S. Clough
Liberal Studies/Asian Religions
LA 101
The University of Montana
32 Campus Drive
Missoula, MT 59812

bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu<mailto:bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu>
Phone: 406-243-2837
Fax: 406-243-5313






From gthomgt at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 22:59:48 2015
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 15 18:59:48 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] meters and songs: the Vedas /// Re: Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoBo9e39J0CwoSSpF2_j+5USe1P5LQDCCcrtb=udYYHm0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zuycsR5CRZO+SHqvRhsZi9zJoDgQ6ou4AGoxMz-dmJ5uA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Jan,

Could you please elaborate on your parenthetical remark that '(Frits
Staal's theory on the Saamaveda therefore needs modification)'?  Frits
certainly was aware of the importance of saamans in the RV.  I am
constantly brooding about the riddles and enigmas of RV 1.164, which, as I
am sure you know, not only mentions saamans but also exhibits saaman-like
phonic patterns.  Frits and I frequently talked about these things over the
last decade  of his life.

I would be interested to hear a more elaborate comment.

Best wishes,

George

On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 6:24 AM, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Prof Paturi,
> Re: the statement which you forwarded, apparently with approval. This is
> purely hypothetical and beyond verification as the oldest text sufficiently
> attested that uses and reflects on verse-meters,
> the Rgveda, is also permeated by the knowledge and employment of
> "song-forms": saamans (Frits Staal's theory on the Saamaveda therefore
> needs modification). It was observed long ago by Oldenberg that the oldest
> textbook of the Saamaveda is the Rgveda itself: large parts are apparently
> from the beginning composed for the sake of "Saamavedic" employment.
> The absence of even a trace of Saamans and Saamaveda in the Avestan
> tradition vs. its pervasive presence in the Vedic tradition is remarkable
> and not compensated by the presence in both traditions of the genre of the
> Gaatha.
> Jan Houben
>
>
>
> *Jan E.M. HOUBEN*
>
> Directeur d??tudes
>
> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite
>
> *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> 54, rue Saint-Jacques
>
> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>
> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr
>
> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>
> www.ephe.fr
>
>
> On 29 July 2015 at 09:15, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sri Naresh Keerthi wrote :
>>
>> >This feature of poetry seems to have eventually percolated into
>> recitative/performative forms that were half-way between poems and songs,
>> as well as into genres that were entirely song like.
>>
>> ----- Both first syllable and second syllable intraline rhymings are
>> features found in proverbs, riddles and other verbal folklore
>> forms functioning as auditory aesthetic forms serving as memorising tools
>> for the tradition-bearers of these oral traditions.
>>
>> It is more reasonable to expect a sharing of this feature by the native
>> verse-meters and lyrical forms with the folklore forms or diffusion of
>> these features from the verbal folklore forms and folk songs into
>> verse-meters rather than from verse-meters into song-forms.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>> Hyderabad-500044
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Thu Jul 30 07:04:57 2015
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 15 09:04:57 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <VI1PR02MB08777ADAFFD82156B36B1618FF8D0@VI1PR02MB0877.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <55B9CC99.2010002@uni-muenchen.de>

Geoffrey Samuel wrote:
> The level of rhetorical aggression displayed on the list over the
> last few days seems to me both inappropriate and thoroughly
> uncollegial.
But I suppose we can all agree that it is utterly uncollegial towards
our colleague Andrew Nicholson if anybody here defends Malhotra, for
instance by trying to obfuscate the issue (by means of vague statements
of unsubstantiated relevance about empathy, meta-epistemological issues,
and what not).
RZ
-- 
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
Department f?r Asienstudien
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU)






From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 30 12:11:52 2015
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 15 12:11:52 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <55B9CC99.2010002@uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <DUB114-W108C569B9A27B788E14B976A58B0@phx.gbl>

I personally have had enough of R. Zydenbos' aggressive tone, although I agree with some of his arguments, and applaud his efforts to speak for the common good of Indology. I would think it is time for the moderators to intervene, as they have already done at a previous stage of this debate. 

For what it is worth, I have found most of the points of view advanced by K. Elst, A. Aklujkar, H. Resnick and notably A. Collins valuable, and I have not seen ? although the volume of messages has made it impossible to read all ? a convincing response to A. Aklujkar's point that the accusation of plagiarism (as distinct from sloppiness) does not make sense if the same source is acknowledged more often than it is not and if no insipid motivation can be identified that would suggest absence of acknowledgment was intentional in those specific cases.

Arlo Griffiths
?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient



> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 09:04:57 +0200
> From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de
> To: indology at list.indology.info
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
> 
> Geoffrey Samuel wrote:
> > The level of rhetorical aggression displayed on the list over the
> > last few days seems to me both inappropriate and thoroughly
> > uncollegial.
> But I suppose we can all agree that it is utterly uncollegial towards
> our colleague Andrew Nicholson if anybody here defends Malhotra, for
> instance by trying to obfuscate the issue (by means of vague statements
> of unsubstantiated relevance about empathy, meta-epistemological issues,
> and what not).
> RZ
> -- 
> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
> Department f?r Asienstudien
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
 		 	   		  


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 13:36:39 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 15 15:36:39 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <DUB114-W108C569B9A27B788E14B976A58B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CdFTZ_kky_4faLphZ+xbBmwCMYY667DHM9ge7zAVOuXdw@mail.gmail.com>

Arlo, plagiarism doesn't, according to the various public definitions,
depend on intention.  There is no distinction - formally speaking - between
sloppiness and plagiarism.  This has already been discussed, about a week
ago ("manslaugher vs. murder").

This is an error that people make about copyright too.  "For scholarly
purposes" means nothing, under the law.   Breaching copyright means
physically *...making...a...copy*.  It doesn't matter why.  If you copy
something physically, without permission, you've breached the
copyright-holder's rights.  It's Act, not Intent.

Best,
Dominik
?


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 14:26:44 2015
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 15 16:26:44 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <1191258126.5153747.1438264074618.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CepJ-+ocZ19aGUmQYq5P7J7aRRqzxNEBfZYim3Lvg97NA@mail.gmail.com>

Several people have reminded me about the concept of "fair use.".

I am not unaware of this concept.  Copying is still a breach of rights.
What fair use means, legally, is that if the case came to court, a
reasonable judge would be unlikely to convict.

--
Sent from Dominik Wujastyk's Android phone


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From hr at ivs.edu  Thu Jul 30 14:26:14 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 15 16:26:14 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CdFTZ_kky_4faLphZ+xbBmwCMYY667DHM9ge7zAVOuXdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1438266423-5259271.11607147.ft6UEQFsR030562@rs143.luxsci.com>

Actually, it?s act and intent. Intent is considered in legal proceedings. It does not exonerate but it mollifies.

Malicious or criminal intent is worse in legal matters.

If Arlo is right, then why treat the offender with all the rage reserved for for malicious, criminal intent?

Best,
Howard

> On Jul 30, 2015, at 3:36 PM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Arlo, plagiarism doesn't, according to the various public definitions, depend on intention.  There is no distinction - formally speaking - between sloppiness and plagiarism.  This has already been discussed, about a week ago ("manslaugher vs. murder").
> 
> This is an error that people make about copyright too.  "For scholarly purposes" means nothing, under the law.   Breaching copyright means physically ...making...a...copy.  It doesn't matter why.  If you copy something physically, without permission, you've breached the copyright-holder's rights.  It's Act, not Intent.  
> 
> Best,
> Dominik
> ?
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Thu Jul 30 14:56:41 2015
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 15 16:56:41 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <1438266423-5259271.11607147.ft6UEQFsR030562@rs143.luxsci.com>
Message-ID: <55BA3B29.50103@uni-muenchen.de>

Howard Resnick wrote:

> [?] If Arlo is right, then why treat the offender with all the rage reserved
> for for malicious, criminal intent?

At the risk of being perceived as 'aggressive in tone' again, I would
like to quote, in humble respect towards my readers, what I wrote
already ten days ago:

"What we see in the case of Malhotra is not mere conscious copying, but
also tinkering with the precise wording. One cannot do this if one
honestly wishes to quote another author."

> Best,

RZ






From p.balcerowicz at uw.edu.pl  Thu Jul 30 17:18:01 2015
From: p.balcerowicz at uw.edu.pl (Piotr Balcerowicz)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 15 19:18:01 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable	rhyming?
In-Reply-To: <1565819117.5748260.1438276663976.JavaMail.root@zp1.poczta.uw.edu.pl>
Message-ID: <615572937.5748323.1438276681873.JavaMail.root@zp1.poczta.uw.edu.pl>

Dear Dominic, 
As for the use of 2nd-syllable rhyming, I?d refer you to the Stuti-vidy?, a work traditionally ascribed to Samantabhadra, but this must be a different one than the author of the ?pta-m?m??s? etc. (see http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10781-014-9270-3), and lived well after 650.
This Jaina work was most probably composed in the South (Karnataka), however, it draws also from North Indian Jaina sources. 

The edition: 
Pann?l?l Jain (ed., Hindi transl.); Jugal Ki?or Mukht?r ?Yugav?ra? (Introduction): ?r?mat-sv?mi-Samantabhadr?c?rya-viracit? Stuti-vidy? (Jina-?ataka) [Samantabhadra-bh?rat?k? eka a?ga] ?r?-Vasunandy-?c?rya-k?ta sa?sk?ta-??k?se ala?k?ta tath? hind?anuv?da se yukta. C?ra-sev?-mandir, Saras?v? Jil? Sah?ranpur 1950.

Best,
Piotr Balcerowicz
--------------------------------
www.orient.uw.edu.pl/balcerowicz






From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 17:19:32 2015
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 01:19:32 +0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <55BA3B29.50103@uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <CAANHO16oZBWk7d0-J47ce9iXvWGfSv9i_fwuwVQv9hX2yNYOzA@mail.gmail.com>

Friends,

I'm no lawyer, but "plagiarism" is not usually a legal issue, unless there
is a strong case for fraud or copyright infringement. It is an ethical
issue, prohibited not by the law but by codes of conduct at universities,
or an internalized sense of acting in good faith as scholars, giving credit
where credit's due, and so on. There are a few widely-accepted definitions
of plagiarism, but this discussion will never end if we try to adjudicate
the matter. In any case, it's up to the copyright holders to take legal
action.

All of us probably had opinions about RM's agitations before the plagiarism
accusations. I don't suppose any of those opinions have been changed; mine,
at least, has been confirmed. I appreciated hearing about the matter
through INDOLOGY, but I think we have been in the "diminishing returns"
part of the discussion for some time.

Andrew

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Robert Zydenbos <zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de>
wrote:

> Howard Resnick wrote:
>
> > [?] If Arlo is right, then why treat the offender with all the rage
> reserved
> > for for malicious, criminal intent?
>
> At the risk of being perceived as 'aggressive in tone' again, I would
> like to quote, in humble respect towards my readers, what I wrote
> already ten days ago:
>
> "What we see in the case of Malhotra is not mere conscious copying, but
> also tinkering with the precise wording. One cannot do this if one
> honestly wishes to quote another author."
>
> > Best,
>
> RZ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de  Thu Jul 30 18:49:53 2015
From: heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de (PD Dr. Heike Oberlin)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 15 20:49:53 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_PM:_T=C3=BCbingen_University_hosts_guest_lecturer_from_southern_India?=
Message-ID: <66E3C9BA-B133-44DC-9981-30588322732E@uni-tuebingen.de>

T?bingen University hosts guest lecturer from southern India
 
Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies expands its focus on Malayalam language and culture
 
Starting in October, students at the University of T?bingen will have outstanding opportunities to learn Malayalam, a language spoken in southwestern India, thanks to a new guest professorship at the Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies sponsored by the Indian government?s University Grants Commission. Teachers from the Thunchath Ezhuthachan Malayalam University in the state of Kerala will be in T?bingen to support the teaching of Malayalam, which is spoken by some 33 million people. This initiative reinforces the University of T?bingen?s long-term focus on the language, which is unique in Europe. 
 
The guest professorship is known as the Gundert Chair after the Malayalam expert Hermann Gundert, a nineteenth-century academic from T?bingen who bequeathed his personal collection to the T?bingen University Library. The guest lecturers will help to work through these historical monographs and manuscripts. As part of the Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies? focus on southern India ? which Ethnology Professor Gabriele Alex and Indology specialist Dr. Heike Oberlin are currently expanding ? the guest lecturers will play an important role in research and teaching. The partner university in Kerala is keen to promote Malayalam literature, and to make it accessible to a wider public via professional translations. A further aim is to develop teaching materials for foreign students of Malayalam.
 
Hermann Gundert was the grandfather of 20th century novelist Hermann Hesse and is considered one of Germany?s greatest linguists in the field of South Indian languages. Gundert studied Theology in T?bingen and learned Sanskrit. He completed his doctorate in T?bingen in 1835. From 1838, he worked for the Basel Mission in Nettur in southwestern India, where Malayalam is spoken. There he founded a school, translated from Malayalam into German, and translated the New Testament into Malayalam. He left India in 1859 due to illness. His most important works in Malayalam were therefore completed in the southwestern German town of Calw, and include the hymn book and his Malayalam-English dictionary, which remains in print today.

Gundert has been called ?the Luther of Kerala.? His translation of the Bible is still used there. His dictionary and grammar remain standard works. His legacy to the T?bingen University Library contains unique material for linguists and indologists. The University of T?bingen is known as Gundert?s University in Kerala - one more reason for the Malayalam University to enter into a partnership with T?bingen on the occasion of Gundert?s 200th birthday.
 
The University of T?bingen has been one of Germany?s main centers of India studies since the mid-19th century, based on the work of Rudolf von Roth, who contributed to the new Veda research, and for whom T?bingen established a Chair of Sanskrit in 1856. T?bingen also sent a number of missionaries to India in the 19th century; their pastoral and academic work strengthened ties between T?bingen and Kerala. 
 
 <> <> <>The new guest professor will be officially welcomed in T?bingen on 9 October 2015. Media representatives are welcome.? <> This will be followed by a two-day symposium on the language and culture of Kerala. A detailed invitation is to follow.
 
 
Contact:
PD Dr. Heike Oberlin
University of T?bingen
Humanities
Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies (AOI)
Institute Manager and Academic Coordinator
Phone  +49 7071 29-74005 
heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de <mailto:heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de>

 

Hermann Gundert, 1859
 
Photo: Reproduction with permission of Dr. Albrecht Frenz
 
 
 
 
 
 
Further information at: http://www.gundert.org <http://www.gundert.org/>
 
 
 
Mit freundlichen Gr??en, 
 
Antje Karbe
 
------------------------------------
Eberhard Karls Universit?t T?bingen
Hochschulkommunikation
Pressereferentin
Wilhelmstra?e 5 ? 72074 T?bingen ? Germany
Telefon +49 7071 29-76789
antje.karbe at uni-tuebingen.de <mailto:antje.karbe at uni-tuebingen.de>
 
www.uni-tuebingen.de <http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/>
 






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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 19:09:20 2015
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 15 21:09:20 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication: Study of the Veda as a living tradition gives a voice ...
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoCvkZSDoUfb0UMrPE1v+zZBeHzR0jTTTeQDBOCLYS41xg@mail.gmail.com>

Study of the Veda as a living tradition gives a voice
to four generations of ahitagnis in ten families:
biographies, interviews, discussions.

David M. Knipe, *Vedic Voices*, New York, Oxford University Press, 2015.
*Vedic Voices: *
*intimate narratives of a living Andhra tradition. *

This study explores an intriguing but almost invisible living tradition.
It demonstrates, along the way, the viability of a predominantly oral,
intellectual culture, and its adaptation, survival and continuation in
modern
times.
E.g. p 250, citation from Yajulu Duvvuri, 28.3.1992:
"Reading and writing I acquired in the course of time. I never
went to school. There was no activity other than Veda."

>From the preface:

A.
The four generations of ten families in this book represent a period of
rapid and
far-reaching changes.

B.
This book highlights the essential features of contemporary Vedic life by
allowing ahitagnis and other Veda pandits, their wives, and their children
to
narrate personal experience. This is important because their communities
and
their individual narrations, all noteworthy and remarkable, are largely
unknown to
mainstream India. Certainly they are far removed from Western perception.
Outside of the subcontinent the general reader of books about India rarely
notices
the Vedic tradition, and normally considers it a strange and remote period
that seems to have ended
thousands of years ago.

C.
An energetic three-hour discussion of Vedic texts and rituals ensued,
leading off three
decades of engagement with the residents of this and nearby agraharas. When
a
modest rupee honorarium was extended to the senior ahitagni Baballa,
following
this initial unanticipated meeting, he declined with an elegant,
unforgettable
phrase: ?Your interest in Veda is our daksina (ritual payment)!"




*Jan E.M. HOUBEN*

Directeur d??tudes

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

*?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques

CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

www.ephe.fr


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 20:08:50 2015
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 15 22:08:50 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indology and plagiarism: specify stance in order to fortify "brand name" (and conclude lengthy threads)
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoBSkS2x40vuEAvyj=zqGpQV+T63FU8dX4__p349haaTag@mail.gmail.com>

Indology and plagiarism

Apart from borderline cases there are also cases of undeniable massive
plagiarism.
One case was discussed long ago by Roy Andrew Miller (JAOS 115.2 [1995]:
343-344), and
a new episode in the same case history was discussed eight years later, now
twelve years
ago, by me (AS/EA 57.1 [2003] p 163, author's copy academia.edu/7196478/ p
55).
>From a quick online search I infer that the publication based on massive
plagiarizing is apparently still for sale and present in university
libraries.
Some similarities with the current case under discussion, except, I hope,
quantitatively:
R Diekstra, till 1997 prof of psychology at Univ of Leiden: those who
discovered textual borrowings which were not or very incompletely
acknowledged were aggressively attacked by adherents of their favourite
public intellectual Diekstra, his sources were (page after page) from
sources relatively unknown to his target public (dutch readers on
psychotherapy), he claimed to be working in haste for a higher aim (helping
those needing psychotherapy).
http://linguafranca.mirror.theinfo.org/9704/fn9704.html

This could be a suitable occasion for the Indology List, since 2001 the
ONLY ONLINE
FORUM IN THE WORLD specializing in academic exchange for bona fide
scholars, "east"
and "west", in Indology and classical South Asia studies, to give a
stronger profile
to Indology's "brand name".

Would there be any harm if the current dv?rap?las of the Indology List
specify
"Indology"'s position on plagiarism in the Guidelines, for instance that
the hypothetic case of plagiarizing (at least if it is massive?) leads to
cancellation of full membership (should have been self-evident but perhaps
it is not), and that emphatic encouragement and condoning of plagiarism
leads to first a warning next to suspension of full membership?
Pro-plagiarists and pro-plagiarism
leniency may feel irritated through such explicit stance but 95% others
would either welcome it or consider it self-evident.

This move could liberate bandwidth of the List for more useful and
interesting topics and
issues.

Jan Houben






*Jan E.M. HOUBEN*

Directeur d??tudes

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

*?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques

CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

www.ephe.fr


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 20:20:59 2015
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 15 22:20:59 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] corrected version: Indology and plagiarism: specify stance in order to fortify "brand name" (and conclude lengthy threads)
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoBOV0DyWQ5Ghtt3OkSP-==WTgHECMYxLJkzhWhYwQgV=w@mail.gmail.com>

Indology and plagiarism

Apart from borderline cases there are also cases of undeniable massive
plagiarism.
One case was discussed long ago by Roy Andrew Miller (JAOS 115.2 [1995]:
343-344), and
a new episode in the same case history was discussed eight years later, now
twelve years
ago, by me (AS/EA 57.1 [2003] p 163, author's copy academia.edu/7196478/ p
55).
>From a quick online search I infer that the publication based on massive
plagiarizing is apparently still for sale and present in university
libraries.
Some similarities with the current case under discussion, except, I hope,
quantitatively:
R Diekstra, till 1997 prof of psychology at Univ of Leiden: those who
discovered textual
borrowings which were not or very incompletely acknowledged were
aggressively attacked by a
dherents of their favourite public intellectual Diekstra, his sources were
(page after page)
from sources relatively unknown to his target public (dutch readers on
psychotherapy), he
claimed to be working in haste for a higher aim (helping those needing
psychotherapy).
http://linguafranca.mirror.theinfo.org/9704/fn9704.html

This could be a suitable occasion for the Indology List, the ONLY ONLINE
FORUM IN THE WORLD
since 2001 specializing in academic exchange for bona fide scholars, "east"
and "west", in Indology and classical South Asia studies, to give a
stronger profile
to Indology's "brand name".

Would there be any harm if the current dv?rap?las of the Indology List
specify
"Indology"'s position on plagiarism in the Guidelines, for instance that
the
hypothetic case of plagiarizing (at least if it is massive?) leads to
cancellation
of full membership (should have been self-evident but perhaps it is not),
and that
emphatic encouragement and condoning of plagiarism leads to first a warning
next to
suspension of full membership? Pro-plagiarists and those in favour of
plagiarism
leniency may feel irritated through such explicit stance but 95% others
would either
welcome it or consider it self-evident.

This move could liberate bandwidth of the List for more useful and
interesting topics and
issues.

Jan Houben





*Jan E.M. HOUBEN*

Directeur d??tudes

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

*?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques

CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

www.ephe.fr


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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 31 01:43:31 2015
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 01:43:31 +0000
Subject: Fw: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <1191258126.5153747.1438264074618.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <212171707.5603829.1438307011490.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

I meant to send this to the whole list but it went to Dominik only which was probably why he got deluged with similar messages from others:
--

Although there is Fair Use which covers quite a bit of "for scholarly purposes."
<In its most general sense, a fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and ?transformative? purpose, such as to comment upon, criticize, or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner. In other words, fair use is a defense against a claim of copyright infringement. If your use qualifies as a fair use, then it would not be considered an illegal infringement.>
This was plagiarized from http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/what-is-fair-use/
Best,
Dean


   

   From: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
 To: INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> 
 Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 7:06 PM
 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
   
Arlo, plagiarism doesn't, according to the various public definitions, depend on intention.? There is no distinction - formally speaking - between sloppiness and plagiarism.? This has already been discussed, about a week ago ("manslaugher vs. murder").

This is an error that people make about copyright too.? "For scholarly purposes" means nothing, under the law.?? Breaching copyright means physically ...making...a...copy.? It doesn't matter why.? If you copy something physically, without permission, you've breached the copyright-holder's rights.? It's Act, not Intent.? 

Best,
Dominik


?
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

   

  


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From antonio.jardim at gmail.com  Fri Jul 31 02:12:52 2015
From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 12:12:52 +1000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <mailman.998.1438307014.29972.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <CAGDOqfpB1-+JFgV=i+_V8eC2OfLM-BE+PH7mLnrpUz_eJW6hqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

I take issue with Dominik's statements here:

" 'For scholarly purposes' means nothing, under the law."

"Copying is still a breach of rights. What fair use means, legally, is that
if the case came to court, a reasonable judge would be unlikely to convict."

--> Not quite correct. It depends on the jurisdiction.

Scholarly use is one of the four exemptions under s107 of the US Copyright
Act. For more information see here:
http://copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html .

We have similar provisions in Australia in our Copyright Act. For more
information see here:
http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/4-case-fair-use-australia/what-fair-use

Similarly in the UK: https://www.gov.uk/exceptions-to-copyright

Fair use provisions provisions are codified in Israel, South Korea etc.

The Canadian Supreme Court has recently moved towards this interpretation
with some important recent decisions:
http://www.press.uottawa.ca/sites/default/files/9780776620848_5.pdf

The situation in the European Union is more complicated and not as absolute
as Dominik portrays. For more information, including a discussion of
particular EU cases read here: http://www.ivir.nl/publicaties/download/912

While it's important to leave Indology to the Indologists, perhaps we
should leave pronouncements on the Law to Legal professionals as a bit of
misinformation can go a long way. :)

Kind regards,
Antonio Ferreira-Jardim
Brisbane, Australia

On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>
> To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
> Cc:
> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 01:43:31 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Fw: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
> I meant to send this to the whole list but it went to Dominik only which
> was probably why he got deluged with similar messages from others:
>
> --
>
> Although there is Fair Use which covers quite a bit of "for scholarly
> purposes."
>
> <In its most general sense, a fair use is any copying of copyrighted
> material done for a limited and ?transformative? purpose, such as to
> comment upon, criticize, or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be
> done without permission from the copyright owner. In other words, fair use
> is a defense against a claim of copyright infringement. If your use
> qualifies as a fair use, then it would not be considered an illegal
> infringement.>
>
> This was plagiarized from
> http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/what-is-fair-use/
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
> *To:* INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 30, 2015 7:06 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
>
> Arlo, plagiarism doesn't, according to the various public definitions,
> depend on intention.  There is no distinction - formally speaking - between
> sloppiness and plagiarism.  This has already been discussed, about a week
> ago ("manslaugher vs. murder").
>
> This is an error that people make about copyright too.  "For scholarly
> purposes" means nothing, under the law.   Breaching copyright means
> physically *...making...a...copy*.  It doesn't matter why.  If you copy
> something physically, without permission, you've breached the
> copyright-holder's rights.  It's Act, not Intent.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
>
> ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>
>
>


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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 31 03:24:32 2015
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 08:54:32 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable rhyming?
In-Reply-To: <615572937.5748323.1438276681873.JavaMail.root@zp1.poczta.uw.edu.pl>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qL0OkhWaRz5HE7-TCmtMH5UW4bFETBv2gYO3YHwZOwHDg@mail.gmail.com>

Among the most popular pieces of poems -- often selected for recitation by
children -- is the ?ivat???avastotra, ascribed to R?va?a, which rhymes its
second syllables up to the 14th that is the last-but-one verse. Its date is
not known but could be anterior to the emergence of Vai??avism as a strong
contender against ?aivism which could be prior to the ninth century CE. But
that is uncertain.

Best

DB

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Piotr Balcerowicz <p.balcerowicz at uw.edu.pl
> wrote:

> Dear Dominic,
> As for the use of 2nd-syllable rhyming, I?d refer you to the Stuti-vidy?,
> a work traditionally ascribed to Samantabhadra, but this must be a
> different one than the author of the ?pta-m?m??s? etc. (see
> http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10781-014-9270-3), and lived
> well after 650.
> This Jaina work was most probably composed in the South (Karnataka),
> however, it draws also from North Indian Jaina sources.
>
> The edition:
> Pann?l?l Jain (ed., Hindi transl.); Jugal Ki?or Mukht?r ?Yugav?ra?
> (Introduction): ?r?mat-sv?mi-Samantabhadr?c?rya-viracit? Stuti-vidy?
> (Jina-?ataka) [Samantabhadra-bh?rat?k? eka a?ga] ?r?-Vasunandy-?c?rya-k?ta
> sa?sk?ta-??k?se ala?k?ta tath? hind?anuv?da se yukta. C?ra-sev?-mandir,
> Saras?v? Jil? Sah?ranpur 1950.
>
> Best,
> Piotr Balcerowicz
> --------------------------------
> www.orient.uw.edu.pl/balcerowicz
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Fri Jul 31 09:32:32 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 15:02:32 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Does anyone know of Sanskrit works that use 2nd-syllable	rhyming?
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eYYt1os5nqvJDJhS_5S_EqGUACOEDDQUerLFXNh+8GLMg@mail.gmail.com>

Prof. Hauben,

I was away from the computer for a couple of days. Hence the delay in my
response.

You said:

Re: the statement which you forwarded, apparently with approval. This is purely
hypothetical and beyond verification as the oldest text sufficiently attested
that uses and reflects on verse-meters, the Rgveda, is also permeated by
the knowledge and employment of "song-forms": saamans.

I am not able to identify my statement that I 'forwarded' with 'approval'.

Is it the following statement from Sri Naresh Keerthi? :

>*This feature of poetry seems to have eventually percolated into *recitative/performative forms that were half-way between poems and songs,
as well as into genres that were entirely song like.


If this is the one, I disagreed with the observation and said:

*Both first syllable and second syllable intraline rhymings are
features found in proverbs, riddles and other verbal folklore*

*forms functioning as auditory aesthetic forms serving as memorising
tools for the tradition-bearers of these oral traditions.*

*It is more reasonable to expect a sharing of this feature by the
native verse-meters and lyrical forms with the folklore forms or
diffusion of*

*these features from the verbal folklore forms and folk songs into
verse-meters rather than from verse-meters into song-forms.*


'verse-meters' here are not the Vaidika or loukika Samskrita meters but the
Dravidian verse-meters.

Relation between Veda mantra recitation in different styles such as pada,
ghana etc. and their singing in saaman style is a different story than the
verse-song relation in Dravidian native verbal lore.

recitation and singing styles of vedic hymns have a long tradition of oral
preservation.

There is no such preserved memory of ancient verse-recitation/singing style
of ancient times in Dravidian verbal lore.

Regards,

Nagaraj







-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From hr at ivs.edu  Fri Jul 31 09:35:53 2015
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 11:35:53 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CePie1v+qT9QMNirRDrGkGU4oM84bWWuhNe9_3JQLSwGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1438335362-9161441.38878573.ft6V9ZFTf000884@rs143.luxsci.com>

Dominik,

	I did not at all mean to attribute rage to you. I apologize if I gave that impression. We have seen some rage here, but not from you.

Best,
Howard

> On Jul 31, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com <mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Dear Howard,
> 
> Through all of this, I haven't felt the slightest twinge of rage.  
> 
> I consider Malhotra to be the one mainly manifesting emotions like that, and that's a big part of the problem.  What I enjoy and what I think helps, is quiet, slow, thoughtful discussion.  That's what's so disappointing about Malhotra.  It's impossible to have a reasonable exchange with him.  He raises some worthwhile points, and many points that could be rather easily proven to be untenable.  But he provides no space for rational discussion and changing of minds.
> 
> The edifice of academic endeavour at least since Nalanda and later the Enlightenement can be viewed as an evolving machine by which humans change each others minds in a graceful manner.  If someone won't participate, or doesn't know how to, then they are at a huge disadvantage.  I'm afraid that's where Malhotra is.
> 
> Best,
> Dominik
> 



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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Fri Jul 31 10:19:27 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 15:49:27 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sorry for the wrong spelling of name.
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eb5YmPOpC8SZJ04CBsP+nXZ=hpnnNwgA-KNiH6d1wbKRA@mail.gmail.com>

Prof. Houben,

I am soorry for spelling your name as Hauben.

Nagaraj

-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 31 10:58:36 2015
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 10:58:36 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <1438335362-9161441.38878573.ft6V9ZFTf000884@rs143.luxsci.com>
Message-ID: <2000203805.5768637.1438340316146.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

>The edifice of academic endeavour at least since Nalanda and later the Enlightenement can be viewed as an evolving machine 
>by which humans change each others minds in a graceful manner.? If someone won't participate, or doesn't know how to, then 
>they are at a huge disadvantage.? I'm afraid that's where Malhotra is.
One small point: I would say this changing of minds goes back much earlier, at least to the time of the early Upanishads like the Brihad Aranyaka Upanishad, which is ascribed to the philosopher Yajnavalkya. Funnily enough, Yajnavalkya wins all the debates described there. 

But we can be sure that some of the debates were won by the defenders of other doctrines, which have not been passed down to us, such as those described as past Buddhas and Tirthankaras. I am assuming historicity here to make a point.

But I agree with you about your criticisms concerning the unreliability of Malhotra. This is brought home to me most powerfully by Malhotra's criticism of Anantanand Rambachan. I am not an expert on the teachings of Swami Dayananda, but it seems to me that Anantanand Rambachan is only accurately representing the teachings of his guru who is considered by many staunch traditionalists to be the greatest living teacher of Advaita Vedanta. I cannot understand how Malhotra can criticize him in the name of defending tradition, just as I am not aware of Malhotra having any significant credentials in this area either from traditional teachers or scholarly Indology. Rambachan has both. This is not necessarily to defend Rambachan, who I do not know, just to point out that he is qualified in both traditions.

Regardless of the validity of some of his criticisms, Malhotra's unreliability? and his combative nature is damaging his ability to accomplish the goals he has set out.

Rambachan does a good job of refuting Malhotra's claims. Someone else has already posted it, but I am posting the link again since it is the best detailed rebuttal I have seen.

http://swarajyamag.com/culture/untangling-the-false-knots-in-rajiv-malhotras-indras-net/3/#sdendnote44sym

Best,

Dean




On Jul 31, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Howard,

Through all of this, I haven't felt the slightest twinge of rage.? 

I consider Malhotra to be the one mainly manifesting emotions like that, and that's a big part of the problem.? What I enjoy and what I think helps, is quiet, slow, thoughtful discussion.? That's what's so disappointing about Malhotra.? It's impossible to have a reasonable exchange with him.? He raises some worthwhile points, and many points that could be rather easily proven to be untenable.? But he provides no space for rational discussion and changing of minds.

The edifice of academic endeavour at least since Nalanda and later the Enlightenement can be viewed as an evolving machine by which humans change each others minds in a graceful manner.? If someone won't participate, or doesn't know how to, then they are at a huge disadvantage.? I'm afraid that's where Malhotra is.

Best,
Dominik




_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

  


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Fri Jul 31 11:11:41 2015
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 11:11:41 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <1438335362-9161441.38878573.ft6V9ZFTf000884@rs143.luxsci.com>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047AEAAE3@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

I concur with those who believe that this thread has long outlived its usefulness.
The positions of all who have contributed are known.

As a Tibetan friend once said: if you just want to go around in circles, there's more
merit in doing circumambulations.

I think it's time to call a halt.

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________



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From ssandahl at sympatico.ca  Fri Jul 31 12:18:30 2015
From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca (Stella Sandahl)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 08:18:30 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047AEAAE3@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <BLU436-SMTP1757F144A6A0FA14DF2F18BF8A0@phx.gbl>

Fully agree! This has lasted long enough. But I was always amazed that Rajiv
Malhotra was paired with illustrious and intelligent men like Shri Aurobindo and Tagore. 
Best
Stella
 
 

andha? tama? pravi?anti ye ?vidy?m up?sate
tato bh?ya iva te tamo ya u vidy?y?? rat?? ||
B?had?ra?yaka Upanisad IV.4.10

?Those who worship ignorance enter into blind darkness.  Those who are devoted to knowledge enter, as it were, into a greater darkness.?

 



 

On Jul 31, 2015, at 7:11 AM, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:

> I concur with those who believe that this thread has long outlived its usefulness. 
> The positions of all who have contributed are known. 
> 
> As a Tibetan friend once said: if you just want to go around in circles, there's more
> merit in doing circumambulations.
> 
> I think it's time to call a halt.
> 
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, 
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
> 
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Fri Jul 31 12:39:32 2015
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 14:39:32 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] English translation of L' Agnistoma by Caland and Henry
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoBpLcJ8kP10GkxsS50p0MO6NHxLVyLaUcG-5iehsUpSnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,
I was recently informed that an English translation of L' Agnistoma by
Caland and Henry done by G.U. Thite in collaboration with Shree
Daptardar-Kelkar has appeared at the Bhandarkar O. R. Institute, Pune.
Best,
Jan Houben



*Jan E.M. HOUBEN*

Directeur d??tudes

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

*?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques

CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

www.ephe.fr


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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 31 12:42:08 2015
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 12:42:08 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
In-Reply-To: <BLU436-SMTP1757F144A6A0FA14DF2F18BF8A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1280778486.5776693.1438346528889.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

I would agree except that this thread keeps digging up important side issues. For example, yesterday it became obvious that a clarification of "Fair Use" was in order. Or the earlier instance where reputed scholars were not fully aware of the strictness of the definition of plagiarism.
One thing I've learned from being on lists like these for decades, and even running them, is that there is a huge population who never speaks up. I would guess at least a dozen important scholars were not clear on Fair Use.
As one person said: we're Indologists, not lawyers.
One can always end this thread whenever one wishes by deleting the messages unread. I do this with many more valuable threads here that are just not in my area of interest. There's even software do it automatically.
I'd say I was done with this thread but I've said that to myself before.
A tip: if you want to end a thread, don't end your message by bringing up another issue by mentioning Aurobindo and Tagore!
Best,
Dean

      From: Stella Sandahl <ssandahl at sympatico.ca>
 To: Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> 
Cc: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info> 
 Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 5:48 PM
 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
   
Fully agree! This has lasted long enough. But I was always amazed that RajivMalhotra was paired with illustrious and intelligent men like Shri Aurobindo and Tagore.?
BestStella
?
?

andha? tama? pravi?anti ye ?vidy?m up?satetato bh?ya iva te tamo ya u vidy?y?? rat?? ||B?had?ra?yaka Upanisad IV.4.10?Those who worship ignorance enter into blind darkness. ?Those who are devoted to knowledge enter, as it were, into?a greater darkness.??

?


On Jul 31, 2015, at 7:11 AM, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:

I concur with those who believe that this thread has long outlived its usefulness.?
The positions of all who have contributed are known.?

As a Tibetan friend once said: if you just want to go around in circles, there's more
merit in doing circumambulations.

I think it's time to call a halt.

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,?
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info?(messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info?(where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

  


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From davidpaolo.pierdominicileao at uniroma1.it  Fri Jul 31 13:11:59 2015
From: davidpaolo.pierdominicileao at uniroma1.it (David Pierdominici)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 15:11:59 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF scan copy 2
Message-ID: <561874B4-C53F-4DD5-A547-551433ECF10B@uniroma1.it>

Dear all,

I?m sorry to bother you all again, but I?m searching for another PDF of the following work:

Lambodaraprahasana of Ve?ka?e?vara, Mysore: Vidyatarangini Press, 1890

Many thanks and regards,

David Pierdominici


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From audrey.truschke at gmail.com  Fri Jul 31 14:13:23 2015
From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 07:13:23 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indology and plagiarism: specify stance in order to fortify "brand name" (and conclude lengthy threads)
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoBSkS2x40vuEAvyj=zqGpQV+T63FU8dX4__p349haaTag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKq175qaTJS_GjOysHC0rcL8MC3_De-tWGr_k2i6nai1G_oDDQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

I am responding to this thread as the INDOLOGY committee member on duty
this week.

The INDOLOGY governing committee moderate discussion on the list, not other
scholarly activities. Accordingly, alleged plagiarism in scholarship
concerning South Asia is certainly a welcome topic of civil discussion on
INDOLOGY. But the governing committee does not claim authority to
adjudicate or discipline anything that happens off list.

Audrey Truschke

Audrey Truschke
Mellon Postdoctoral Fellow
Department of Religious Studies
Stanford University
e- <audrey.truschke at gmail.com>mail <audrey.truschke at gmail.com> | website
<http://www.stanford.edu/~truschke/>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Indology and plagiarism
>
> Apart from borderline cases there are also cases of undeniable massive
> plagiarism.
> One case was discussed long ago by Roy Andrew Miller (JAOS 115.2 [1995]:
> 343-344), and
> a new episode in the same case history was discussed eight years later,
> now twelve years
> ago, by me (AS/EA 57.1 [2003] p 163, author's copy academia.edu/7196478/
> p 55).
> From a quick online search I infer that the publication based on massive
> plagiarizing is apparently still for sale and present in university
> libraries.
> Some similarities with the current case under discussion, except, I hope,
> quantitatively:
> R Diekstra, till 1997 prof of psychology at Univ of Leiden: those who
> discovered textual borrowings which were not or very incompletely
> acknowledged were aggressively attacked by adherents of their favourite
> public intellectual Diekstra, his sources were (page after page) from
> sources relatively unknown to his target public (dutch readers on
> psychotherapy), he claimed to be working in haste for a higher aim (helping
> those needing psychotherapy).
> http://linguafranca.mirror.theinfo.org/9704/fn9704.html
>
> This could be a suitable occasion for the Indology List, since 2001 the
> ONLY ONLINE
> FORUM IN THE WORLD specializing in academic exchange for bona fide
> scholars, "east"
> and "west", in Indology and classical South Asia studies, to give a
> stronger profile
> to Indology's "brand name".
>
> Would there be any harm if the current dv?rap?las of the Indology List
> specify
> "Indology"'s position on plagiarism in the Guidelines, for instance that
> the hypothetic case of plagiarizing (at least if it is massive?) leads to
> cancellation of full membership (should have been self-evident but perhaps
> it is not), and that emphatic encouragement and condoning of plagiarism
> leads to first a warning next to suspension of full membership?
> Pro-plagiarists and pro-plagiarism
> leniency may feel irritated through such explicit stance but 95% others
> would either welcome it or consider it self-evident.
>
> This move could liberate bandwidth of the List for more useful and
> interesting topics and
> issues.
>
> Jan Houben
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Jan E.M. HOUBEN*
>
> Directeur d??tudes
>
> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite
>
> *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> 54, rue Saint-Jacques
>
> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>
> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr
>
> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>
> www.ephe.fr
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 31 15:41:52 2015
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 21:11:52 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] corrected version: Indology and plagiarism: specify stance in order to fortify "brand name" (and conclude lengthy threads)
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoBOV0DyWQ5Ghtt3OkSP-==WTgHECMYxLJkzhWhYwQgV=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qK2z1_5XP_eLGZiP6jD2t=yrfiN5Zby9vyF2_Gr11t9+A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,
I may relate a similar experience with a much more low profile book by
me -*-Mythological
and rirtual symbolism* 1984 Calcutta. The fourth and fifth chapters (194 -
208) were verbatim copied without any acknowledgement or reference to my
work in a book published by a reputed publisher of Delhi. I wrote to them,
they did not reply. My solicitor advised purchasing a copy for production
if I wanted to start legal proceedings. I wanted to purchase. Again, the
publishers were silent. In the mean time my book went out of print.
It requires so much energy and resources to carry on legal proceedings that
one engaged in work often gives up.
With best wishes for all and collegial sympathy for co-sufferers.

DB


On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 1:50 AM, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Indology and plagiarism
>
> Apart from borderline cases there are also cases of undeniable massive
> plagiarism.
> One case was discussed long ago by Roy Andrew Miller (JAOS 115.2 [1995]:
> 343-344), and
> a new episode in the same case history was discussed eight years later,
> now twelve years
> ago, by me (AS/EA 57.1 [2003] p 163, author's copy academia.edu/7196478/
> p 55).
> From a quick online search I infer that the publication based on massive
> plagiarizing is apparently still for sale and present in university
> libraries.
> Some similarities with the current case under discussion, except, I hope,
> quantitatively:
> R Diekstra, till 1997 prof of psychology at Univ of Leiden: those who
> discovered textual
> borrowings which were not or very incompletely acknowledged were
> aggressively attacked by a
> dherents of their favourite public intellectual Diekstra, his sources were
> (page after page)
> from sources relatively unknown to his target public (dutch readers on
> psychotherapy), he
> claimed to be working in haste for a higher aim (helping those needing
> psychotherapy).
> http://linguafranca.mirror.theinfo.org/9704/fn9704.html
>
> This could be a suitable occasion for the Indology List, the ONLY ONLINE
> FORUM IN THE WORLD
> since 2001 specializing in academic exchange for bona fide scholars,
> "east"
> and "west", in Indology and classical South Asia studies, to give a
> stronger profile
> to Indology's "brand name".
>
> Would there be any harm if the current dv?rap?las of the Indology List
> specify
> "Indology"'s position on plagiarism in the Guidelines, for instance that
> the
> hypothetic case of plagiarizing (at least if it is massive?) leads to
> cancellation
> of full membership (should have been self-evident but perhaps it is not),
> and that
> emphatic encouragement and condoning of plagiarism leads to first a
> warning next to
> suspension of full membership? Pro-plagiarists and those in favour of
> plagiarism
> leniency may feel irritated through such explicit stance but 95% others
> would either
> welcome it or consider it self-evident.
>
> This move could liberate bandwidth of the List for more useful and
> interesting topics and
> issues.
>
> Jan Houben
>
>
>
>
>
> *Jan E.M. HOUBEN*
>
> Directeur d??tudes
>
> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite
>
> *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes*
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> 54, rue Saint-Jacques
>
> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>
> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr
>
> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>
> www.ephe.fr
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Fri Jul 31 18:27:27 2015
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 15 23:57:27 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tagore, Aurobindo, and Malhotra
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eYW+7g_X4OXzHtubJOgo_=DAjZQhtCeWL=D=Nrm-6b88Q@mail.gmail.com>

My participation in this thread was in response to what was already

If there was any branching out that was happening, from the original theme
of Malhotra and his alleged plagiarism into general and broader issues of
decolonization and reversed gaze and so on, it already happened at the
beginning of the thread itself. Then response to that was also covering a
broader theme of Indology, its nature, its reception among contemporary
Indians, agreeing or not agreeing to use the method of Indology etc.

I participated at that stage and limited my response only to the these
general and broad issues.

My response has no potential to or no objective of defending any plagiarism
if committed by any person anywhere.

For that matter, my posts as part of the threads that originated in the
issue of Malhotra and his alleged plagiarism have no potential to or no
objective of defending any plagiarism if committed by any person anywhere


-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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