From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Jul  1 04:04:16 2014
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 14 09:34:16 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hindu Buddha
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfndXobYZt3ZmNH9wcE2Om7f2svD78mANmt6atHN1OyHg@mail.gmail.com>

Some of you may find this interesting.  Please see the attached article on
the RSS view of the Buddha.  It appeared in today's Indian Express.  Best,

-- 
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Tue Jul  1 06:08:29 2014
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 14 08:08:29 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hindu Buddha
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzfndXobYZt3ZmNH9wcE2Om7f2svD78mANmt6atHN1OyHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4+ecT07cLLzJGFn4RBn00Eq0gSue3+Jb7V9teOVH=_Xgg@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Madhav--this short piece will be very useful to use in the
classroom--because it is not wrong "in fact"  and yet manages to be
entirely wrong!.

very best, jonathan


On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

> Some of you may find this interesting.  Please see the attached article on
> the RSS view of the Buddha.  It appeared in today's Indian Express.  Best,
>
> --
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
> Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
> 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
> The University of Michigan
> Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
J. Silk
Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37
Doelensteeg 16
2311 VL Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html


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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Tue Jul  1 08:54:17 2014
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 14 14:24:17 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hindu Buddha
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4+ecT07cLLzJGFn4RBn00Eq0gSue3+Jb7V9teOVH=_Xgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qKmjeu6b80GsoczS172PTvSu2S0C+0a8azx5SD6Sb3bwA@mail.gmail.com>

The proposition suffers from anachronism.There was no Hinduism in the 6th
century BCE.
The Buddha (Suttanipaata 130) is reputed to have upheld the equality of man
at birth. Even if the Suttanipaata is not available, one may easily consult
the Sources of Indian tradition,1963:143. That was not traditional Hinduism.
DB


On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you Madhav--this short piece will be very useful to use in the
> classroom--because it is not wrong "in fact"  and yet manages to be
> entirely wrong!.
>
> very best, jonathan
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
>
>> Some of you may find this interesting.  Please see the attached article
>> on the RSS view of the Buddha.  It appeared in today's Indian Express.
>>  Best,
>>
>> --
>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>> Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
>> 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
>> The University of Michigan
>> Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>
>
> --
> J. Silk
> Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37
> Doelensteeg 16
> 2311 VL Leiden
> The Netherlands
>
> copies of my publications may be found at
> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From dermot at grevatt.f9.co.uk  Tue Jul  1 10:16:35 2014
From: dermot at grevatt.f9.co.uk (dermot at grevatt.f9.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 14 11:16:35 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hindu Buddha
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4+ecT07cLLzJGFn4RBn00Eq0gSue3+Jb7V9teOVH=_Xgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53B28A83.8605.81CFA0@dermot.grevatt.f9.co.uk>

Indeed it is entirely wrong, as Jonathan says. If it wasn't for "the British" (taking this to refer to 
the period roughly 1750-1947, and especially British and continental indology and its 
influence on Indian intellectual life), Hindus would still know Buddhism as a system to be 
represented in purvapakshas and then condemned, or as the teachings of an avatara 
designed to mislead the wicked. 

It's true, yet wrong, to say the Buddha never said he was quitting Hindu religion or Sanatan 
religion or Vedic religion, or forming a new religion, because such concepts didn't exist.

Best wishes to Madhav, Jonathan and all,

Dermot Killingley


On 1 Jul 2014 at 8:08, Jonathan Silk wrote:

> 
> Thank you Madhav--this short piece will be very useful to use in the
> classroom--because it is not wrong "in fact" and yet manages to be
> entirely wrong!. 
> 
> very best, jonathan
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
> wrote:
>     Some of you may find this interesting. Please see the attached
>     article on the RSS view of the Buddha. It appeared in today's
>     Indian Express. Best, 
> 
>     --
>     Madhav M. Deshpande
>     Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
>     Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
>     202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
>     The University of Michigan
>     Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     INDOLOGY mailing list
>     INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>     http://listinfo.indology.info
> 
> 
> --
> J. Silk
> Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37
> Doelensteeg 16
> 2311 VL Leiden
> The Netherlands
> 
> copies of my publications may be found at
> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html



-- 
Dermot Killingley
9, Rectory Drive,
Gosforth,
Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT
Phone (0191) 285 8053






From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl  Tue Jul  1 10:56:56 2014
From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 14 10:56:56 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hindu Buddha
In-Reply-To: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9A1DE05C7@PEXMB001B.vu.local>
Message-ID: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9A1DE05E7@PEXMB001B.vu.local>



________________________________
Subject: Hindu Buddha


Looking at the passage in Sutta Nipata, 1.7 (Vasalasutta) it does seem to describe an early form of Hinduism. It is interesting that the Buddha is approaching a Brahmin who is busy with a sacrifice and the Brahmin calls out to the Buddha to stay away: apparently because the shaven monk as a world-renouncer would be able to pollute the sacrifice. After all, the renouncer is as it were sociologically already dead. This would point to an early phase of urbanised and sedentary Hinduism, unless we assume the Sutta Nipata was composed much later and hence reflects an early form of Hinduism which may not have been in existence in the times of Buddha himself. But apart from this, the fact also seems to remain that the Buddha was for all practical purposes a world-renouncer.

Incidentally, in the text of the Sutta Nipata the word for 'outcast' or low caste is vasalaka / vasala allegedly from the Sanskrit vrishala (vRSala).

http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/ This is a link to the Pali Tipitaka.

Yours

Victor van Bijlert



________________________________

Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203


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From franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it  Tue Jul  1 23:13:02 2014
From: franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it (Marco Franceschini)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 00:13:02 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_sentences_inserted_in_the_RV_padap=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha._An_addition?=
In-Reply-To: <53B132E6.7090804@univ-paris-diderot.fr>
Message-ID: <160E760D-A9B4-4E73-BCD4-E9C8576DAF15@fastwebnet.it>

Many thanks to Manu Francis and Jean-Luc Chevillard for their suggestions. Yet, I could not find any correspondence between the syllables in the sentences and the text of the RV. On the other hand, I noticed that the sentences in my manuscript are all in ?loka metre (16 syllable each) with only one exception (the one at the end of the 23th varga, which has one extra syllable). The sentence quoted by Winternitz is defective of one syllable: I?d be curious to know about the a?ivaravu found by Manu!

For those who are interested, I?ve copied below here the first eight and the last five sentences, preceded by incipit, explicits, and final rubric of the manuscript (red color marks unclear or damaged syllables, underscore stands for vir?ma).

Best wishes,

Marco
---

incipit:
[1r1] agnim | ?le | puro?-hitam | yaj?asya | devam | ?tvijam | hot?ram | ratna-dh?tamam | agni? | p?rvebhi? | ??ibhi? | ??ya? | n?tanai? | uta || sa? | dev?n_ | ? | ? | iha | vak?ati | agnin? | rayim | a?navat_ | po?am | [1r2] eva | dive-dive || ya?asam | v?ravat_-tamam | agne | yam | yaj?am | addhvaram | vi?vata? | pari-bh?? | asi | sa? | it_ | deve?u | gacchati || agni? | hot? | kavi-kratu? | satya? | citra-?rava?-tama? || deva? | devebhi? | ? | gamat_ || | [1r3] 1 | s?stvabj?nutthay?gammyamana?vannarccan?ddhvana? @ | yat_ | a?ga | d??u?e | tvam | agne | bhadram | kari?yasi || tava | it_ | tat_ | satyam | a?gira? || upa | tv? | agne | dive-dive | do?a-vasta? | dhiy? | vayam || nama? | bharanta || ? | [1r4] imasi || r?jantam | addhvar???m | gop?m | ?tasya | d?divim || varddham?nam | sve | dame || sa? | na? | pit?-iva | s?nave | agne | su-up?yana? | bhava || sacasva | ? | na? | svastaye || 2 | s? | @ | pavasv?nirjaneddhvanna[1r5]sanamannatranirnnayam || @ |

explicit (end of 1st a??aka = end of 1.121):
[44v6] ?auddhar?p??var?n?tak_r?gras?naman?rccanam @ s?kt?ni nava | ?ca? 135 | pratham???ake a??amo [44v7] ddhy?ya? gurubhyo nama? | ?ubham astu pratham???akavargasa?khy? 265 | s?ktasa?khy? | 121 | ?k_sa?khy? 1370 | anuv?kasa?khy? | 18 | asmat_gurubhyo nama? @ |

explicit (end of 2nd a??aka = end of 3.6):
[89v2] o aibhir agne o | sa-ratham | y?hi | arv??_ | n?n?-ratham | v? | vi-bhava? | hi | a?v?? | patn?-vata? | [89v3] tri??atam | tr?n_ | ? | ca | dev?n_ | anu-svadham | ?va | ? | vaha | m?dayasva || sa? | hot? | yasya | rodas? i | cit_ | urv? i | yaj?am-yaj?am | abhi | v?dhe | g???ta? || pr?c? i | addhvar?-iva | tasthatu? | sumeke iti su- | ?ta[89v4]var? ity ?ta- | ?ta-jatasya | satye i || o il?m agne + dha | sy?n na + sme o || @ | 27 | s? | yudhice??gar?tunniy?nyak_tasyak_nay???ak?m @

final rubric:
[89v4] s?kt?ni tra?o?a?a | ?ca? 140 | @ | dvit?y???ake [89v5] a??amo ddhy?ya? | @ | dvit?y???akas?ktasa?khy? 119 | ?ca? 1147 | @ | anta? 2384 | @ | ?r?mah?sarasvatyai nama? vedavy?s?ya nama? | ?ubham astu || @ ||||

---

First eight sentences:
end of the 1st varga (after 1.1.5): s?stvabj?nutthay?gammyamana?vannarccan?ddhvana?
end of the 2nd varga (end of 1.1): pavasv?nirjaneddhvannasanamannatranirnnayam
end of the 3rd varga (after 1.2.5): dhanv?sann?lay?d?n?dhanavannarttan??in?
end of the 4th varga (end of 1.2): tat_gatirnnavana?ru??a?sanadannasyana??atam
end of the 5th varga (after 1.3.6): dhanvinity?lak?g?nidhana?akyavana?khana?
end of the 6th varga (end of 1.3): yasmaisina?purassannaman??annarttana?vanam
end of the 7th varga (after 1.4.5): ga?arddhin?tay?rddhannapa?yata?_najanirmmana?
end of the 8th varga (end of 1.4): dhigvas?nn?lapanakillayav??_n?yana?khanam

Last five sentences:
end of the 23th varga (end of 3.4): jani?k?nn?dhunarbhunn?ki?sammyak_jalpak_jan?cc?na?
end of the 24th varga (after 3.5.5): dh?Xpu?yai?abh???pty?k_nayapannadhana?vana?
end of the 25th varga (end of 3.5):  s?da??y?kvar?likhy?kv?k_kannayajanasvana?
end of the 26th varga (after 3.6.5): mandeni?k?sir?sain?s?patyak_kar?anandhana?
end of the 27th varga (end of 3.6): yudhice??gar?tunniy?nyak_tasyak_nay???ak?m




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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 01:01:05 2014
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 06:31:05 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hindu Buddha
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ea_pbURyGW0czHzb39aHEGTNuDR0VaCuOeKFSmtdCBsSQ@mail.gmail.com>

1. The argument by the RSS person is not a newsmaker to the academic world
as the continuities between Vedic culture and thought and Buddhism have
been under discussion alongside the discontinuities between the two.

2. There were/are descriptions of Buddhism as 'protestant Hinduism' , as a
'subset of Hinduism' etc. by a certain strand of western scholarship too.

3. One of the main issues here is the use of the word 'Hindu'. Richard King
problematized this in his 'Orientalism and Religion' . But uncritical use
of the problematic term even in academic debates continues perpetuating
ambiguities.

4. Alexander Wynne's 'the origin of Buddhist meditation' and other such
works do trace at least certain aspects of Buddhism to Vedic culture
or texts .


Regards,


Nagaraj

-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 06:33:20 2014
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 08:33:20 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] standards at the BBC
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4JiA3KRw7w_GNVM+qww3jd=gJOhqjH11N9_d5QGKcorwA@mail.gmail.com>

In what is otherwise a rather normal BBC article about pollution in the
Ganges (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28112403), we come across this
spectacular explanation for cremation in Varanasi, namely that

According to the Hindu faith, anyone cremated in Varanasi is freed from
Moksha, the cycle of life and death, if part of their cremated body is
placed in the river as an offering.

As the lovely expression I learnt from "If I ran the zoo" has it, I almost
swallowed my gum.

file this under 'new lows department'

jonathan

-- 
J. Silk
Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37
Doelensteeg 16
2311 VL Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html


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From manufrancis at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 07:10:17 2014
From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 09:10:17 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_sentences_inserted_in_the_RV_padap=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha._An_addition?=
In-Reply-To: <160E760D-A9B4-4E73-BCD4-E9C8576DAF15@fastwebnet.it>
Message-ID: <CANVHsm6vYk=EC2wrng=puZezbzUL+kVmFNW6gy70kTQabYXyPQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Marco,

Here is one example from the MS "BOX ?, No. 1" at the CUL.

Summary of the MS: This is a partial collection of the devotional poems to
Vi??u/K???a by Tiruma?kai ??v?r (probably 8th century CE) which belong to
the Vai??ava corpus of Bhakti hymns in Tamil known as the
*N?l?yirativviyappirapantam*, ?The Divine Poetic Composition in Four
Thousands (of stanzas).? The manuscript comprises the 2nd Thousand (or 3rd
Thousand according to a variant arrangement), that is the *Periyatirumo?i*
(1r1?94v1), the *Tirukku?unt???akam* (94v1?96r3) and the *Tirune?unt???akam
*(96r4?100r3). The *Periya Tirumo?i*, ?The Great Glorious Utterance,?
consists in 1084 stanzas which are grouped by tens (*pattu*) of poems (
*patikam*), each of these poems consisting in ten stanzas. The
*Tirukku?unt???akam*, ?The Glorious Short *T???akam* (i.e. a type of
poem),? and the *Tirune?unt???akam*, ?The Glorious Long *T???akam*,?
consist respectively of 20 and 30 stanzas.

These are the 21 *prat?ka*s found between the *Tirukku?unt???akam* and the
*Tirune?unt???akam* in f. 96r, lines 3-4:

niti k???up p?yira? k[?*]?kaiy irumpi m?var immai v?? u??a? ci??an to???viy
[[i.e. to??? ?viy: 2 *prat?ka*s]] irumpu k?vi (96r4) mu? m?yap p[?*]ciy
i?appi? pi??i v??ava?r mi? ?


To be compared with the *m?lam *(of the whole *Tirukku?unt???akam* and
first stanza ofthe *Tirune?unt???akam*) in the attached file.


I can send the pictures of the folio if you are interested.


Best wishes.


Manu

--
Emmanuel Francis
Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR
8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris)
http://ceias.ehess.fr/
http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725
http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/
Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950,
Universit?t Hamburg)
http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html
https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis


2014-07-02 1:13 GMT+02:00 Marco Franceschini <
franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it>:

> Many thanks to Manu Francis and Jean-Luc Chevillard for their suggestions.
> Yet, I could not find any correspondence between the syllables in the
> sentences and the text of the RV. On the other hand, I noticed that the
> sentences in my manuscript are all in ?loka metre (16 syllable each) with
> only one exception (the one at the end of the 23th varga, which has one
> extra syllable). The sentence quoted by Winternitz is defective of one
> syllable: I?d be curious to know about the a?ivaravu found by Manu!
>
>
> For those who are interested, I?ve copied below here the first eight and
> the last five sentences, preceded by incipit, explicits, and final rubric
> of the manuscript (red color marks unclear or damaged syllables, underscore
> stands for vir?ma).
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Marco
> ---
>
>
> *incipit:*
>
> *[1r1]* agnim | ?le | puro?-hitam | yaj?asya | devam | ?tvijam | hot?ram
> | ratna-dh?tamam | agni? | p?rvebhi? | ??ibhi? | ??ya? | n?tanai? | uta ||
> sa? | dev?n_ | ? | ? | iha | vak?ati | agnin? | rayim | a?navat_ | po?am |
> *[1r2]* eva | dive-dive || ya?asam | v?ravat_-tamam | agne | yam | yaj?am
> | addhvaram | vi?vata? | pari-bh?? | asi | sa? | it_ | deve?u | gacchati ||
> agni? | hot? | kavi-kratu? | satya? | citra-?rava?-tama? || deva? |
> devebhi? | ? | gamat_ || | *[1r3]* 1 | s?stvabj?nutthay?gammyamana?vannarccan?ddhvana? @ |
> yat_ | a?ga | d??u?e | tvam | agne | bhadram | kari?yasi || tava | it_ |
> tat_ | satyam | a?gira? || upa | tv? | agne | dive-dive | do?a-vasta? |
> dhiy? | vayam || nama? | bharanta || ? | *[1r4]* imasi || r?jantam |
> addhvar???m | gop?m | ?tasya | d?divim || varddham?nam | sve | dame || sa?
> | na? | pit?-iva | s?nave | agne | su-up?yana? | bhava || sacasva | ? | na?
> | svastaye || 2 | s? | @ | pavasv?nirjaneddhvanna*[1r5]*sanamannatranirnnayam
> || @ |
>
> *explicit (end of 1st a??aka = end of 1.121):*
>
> *[44v6]* ?auddhar?p??var?n?tak_r?gras?naman?rccanam @ s?kt?ni nava | ?ca?
> 135 | pratham???ake a??amo *[44v7]* ddhy?ya? gurubhyo nama? | ?ubham astu
> pratham???akavargasa?khy? 265 | s?ktasa?khy? | 121 | ?k_sa?khy? 1370 |
> anuv?kasa?khy? | 18 | asmat_gurubhyo nama? @ |
>
> *explicit (end of 2nd a??aka = end of 3.6):*
>
> *[89v2]* o aibhir agne o | sa-ratham | y?hi | arv??_ | n?n?-ratham | v? |
> vi-bhava? | hi | a?v?? | patn?-vata? | *[89v3]* tri??atam | tr?n_ | ? |
> ca | dev?n_ | anu-svadham | ?va | ? | vaha | m?dayasva || sa? | hot? |
> yasya | rodas? i | cit_ | urv? i | yaj?am-yaj?am | abhi | v?dhe | g???ta?
> || pr?c? i | addhvar?-iva | tasthatu? | sumeke iti su- | ?ta*[89v4]*var?
> ity ?ta- | ?ta-jatasya | satye i || o il?m agne + dha | sy?n na + sme o ||
> @ | 27 | s? | yudhice??gar?tunniy?nyak_tasyak_nay???ak?m @
>
>
> *final rubric:*
>
> *[89v4]* s?kt?ni tra?o?a?a | ?ca? 140 | @ | dvit?y???ake *[89v5]* a??amo
> ddhy?ya? | @ | dvit?y???akas?ktasa?khy? 119 | ?ca? 1147 | @ | anta? 2384 |
> @ | ?r?mah?sarasvatyai nama? vedavy?s?ya nama? | ?ubham astu || @ ||||
>
> ---
>
> *First eight sentences:*
>
> *end of the 1st varga (after 1.1.5): *s?stvabj?nutthay?gammy
> amana?vannarccan?ddhvana?
> *end of the 2nd varga (end of 1.1): *pavasv?nirjaneddhvannasanamannatra
> nirnnayam
>
> *end of the 3rd varga (after 1.2.5): *dhanv?sann?lay?d?n?dha
> navannarttan??in?
>
> *end of the 4th varga (end of 1.2): *tat_gatirnnavana?ru??a?sanadannasy
> ana??atam
>
> *end of the 5th varga (after 1.3.6): *dhanvinity?lak?g?nidha
> na?akyavana?khana?
>
> *end of the 6th varga (end of 1.3): *yasmaisina?purassannaman
> ??annarttana?vanam
>
> *end of the 7th varga (after 1.4.5): *ga?arddhin?tay?rddhann
> apa?yata?_najanirmmana?
>
> *end of the 8th varga (end of 1.4): *dhigvas?nn?lapanakillaya
> v??_n?yana?khanam
>
> *Last five sentences:*
>
> *end of the 23th varga (end of 3.4): *jani?k?nn?dhunarbhunn?ki
> ?sammyak_jalpak_jan?cc?na?
>
> *end of the 24th varga (after 3.5.5): *dh?Xpu?yai?abh???pty?k
> _nayapannadhana?vana?
>
> *end of the 25th varga (end of 3.5): * s?da??y?kvar?likhy?kv?k
> _kannayajanasvana?
>
> *end of the 26th varga (after 3.6.5): *mandeni?k?sir?sain?s?p
> atyak_kar?anandhana?
> *end of the 27th varga (end of 3.6): *
> yudhice??gar?tunniy?nyak_tasyak_nay???ak?m
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>




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From jdnarayan at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 07:17:07 2014
From: jdnarayan at gmail.com (Dn Jha)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 12:47:07 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query
Message-ID: <CAFUHw76fHriX9UyTGGvixO+3AHP_fjEDV8eMWHdwtJmH8_Vr=g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,
I am looking for information about the life of the Tibetan monk Sumpa
Khan-Po Yece Pal Jor (18th century). I am aware of his work edited by Sarat
Chandra Das. But I would appreciate if some one helps me with more
material. More specifically I want to know whether he travelled to India---
S C Das doesn't say anything about this.
Thanks and Regards,
D N Jha
Former Professor and Chair,
Department of History
University of Delhi

-- 
-- 
D N Jha
Professor of History (retired),
University of Delhi
9, Uttaranchal Apartments
5, I.P. Extension, Delhi 110 092
Tel: + 2277 1049
Cell: 98111 43090
jdnarayan at gmail.com
dnjha72 at gmail.com


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From c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk  Wed Jul  2 07:48:22 2014
From: c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk (Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 07:48:22 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Dharmas=C5=ABtras?=
In-Reply-To: <5622B5FA1B14F3439A3ABC85C5A09EA823913633@EX-1-MB1.lancs.local>
Message-ID: <5622B5FA1B14F3439A3ABC85C5A09EA823913651@EX-1-MB1.lancs.local>


Dear folk,
Could anyone point me to the text of the dharmas?tras available online in devan?gar? (or even in romanization)? I can only find the various encodings on Gretil, which are quite difficult to read with students.
Thanks,
Ram

Professor Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad
Lancaster University


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From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Wed Jul  2 08:09:42 2014
From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 10:09:42 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_sentences_inserted_in_the_RV_padap=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha._An_addition?=
In-Reply-To: <160E760D-A9B4-4E73-BCD4-E9C8576DAF15@fastwebnet.it>
Message-ID: <53B3BE46.3000908@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

Dear Marco,

It is probably not easy to compare the practices found in all the MSS 
and all the editions of the NATP (n?l?yira tivviyap pirapantam).

As you know, the EFEO collection has hundreds of MSS
(how many NATP MSS does the Cambridge library have?)

Regarding the practice in the printed editions,
I made a random test, by examining the beginning of the Periya Tirumo?i.

The 1993 printing of the popular LIFCO edition which I have in Paris 
gives, on page 360, after the 1st group of 10 stanzas, numbered from 948 
to 957 in the LIFCO edition:

???????: ???????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????
????????? ??? ????????? ????? ????? - ????

[a?ivaravu: v??i??? ?vi c?mam ve??i ka?va?
empir?? il ka??il?? kulam ma?cu - v?li]

Those from "v??i???" to "ma?cu" are the first words inside those 10 
stanzas, and they are followed by the first word of the next group of 
ten, which is "v?li".


A 1937 edition of the NATP gives, in the corresponding place, a slightly 
different list, where items 2, 5 and 7 fit more closely with the wording 
of the stanzas:

???????: ???????? ????? ????? ?????? ????????
????????? ?????????? ????????? ????? ????? - ????

[a?ivaravu: v??i??? *?viy?* c?mam ve??i *ka?va???*
empir?? *i?pi?appu* ka??il?? kulam ma?cu - v?li]

The 1863 edition of the Periya Tirumo?i does NOT provide the a?ivaravu


I checked one of the EFEO MSS (EO-0554)
and we can read, on the corresponding place what follows:

???????????????????????????????????????????????????
[I do not provide a transliteration because the orthography is not the 
MODERN one ;-)

As you see there is a lot a variation but we do not seem to have a 
metrical presentation form of the a?ivaravu.

I would be interested to hear about metrical presentation forms of the 
a?ivaravu for the NATP, if they exist (there might be a special 
treatment for that section of the NATP which was composed by  Namm??v?r).

HOWEVER, the other case which I mentionned yesterday, the YK 
(Y?pparu?kalak k?rikai) is completely different.

In the PDF which I managed to send yesterday, you can see, if you 
examine the page closely that:
-- UVS says there is variation: "??????????? ?????????? ???????? ??????????? 
??????????????????" [muta?i?aippai u?arttum ceyyu? piratit??um 
v??upa??irukki?atu]
-- He provides examples in 3 different meters (see yesterday's PDF)

One of the remaining questions (for me) is of course to get an 
explanation concerning the Sanskrit technical expression "n?taka ?loka"
which is probably what is referred to inside the sentence I quoted 
yesterday, from the YK commentary:

????????????????? ?????? ??????? ???????
????? ???????? ????????? ??????????????
[urup?vat?ratti?ku n?takac cul?kam? p?lavum
mutal ni?aippu u?arttiya ilakkiyattat?y]

Was the R?p?vat?ra transmitted accompanied by special items called 
n?taka ?loka-s.

I would like to know.

I wish you all the best

-- Jean-Luc (Paris)




"https://twitter.com/JLC1956"


"https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"





On 02/07/2014 01:13, Marco Franceschini wrote:
> On the other hand, I noticed that the sentences in my manuscript are all
> in ?loka metre (16 syllable each) with only one exception (the one at
> the end of the 23th varga, which has one extra syllable). The sentence
> quoted by Winternitz is defective of one syllable: I?d be curious to
> know about the a?ivaravu found by Manu!






From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 08:34:33 2014
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (dhaval patel)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 14:04:33 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Dharmas=C5=ABtras?=
In-Reply-To: <5622B5FA1B14F3439A3ABC85C5A09EA823913651@EX-1-MB1.lancs.local>
Message-ID: <CADSGPzVVkSeCyojsWpmned1K7N-HYbe1PakaAoPa7MBOKMtgKA@mail.gmail.com>

Respected Sir,
Please visit
http://www.sanskritworld.in/index/listview/category_id/dharmashastra
Here you can see most of GRETIL texts in unicode devanagari.
Corrections or suggestions are welcome.


On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi <
c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk> wrote:

>
>   Dear folk,
> Could anyone point me to the text of the dharmas?tras available online in
> devan?gar? (or even in romanization)? I can only find the various encodings
> on Gretil, which are quite difficult to read with students.
> Thanks,
> Ram
>
>  Professor Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad
> Lancaster University
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
District Development Officer, Rajkot
www.sanskritworld.in


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Wed Jul  2 08:47:09 2014
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 08:47:09 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query
In-Reply-To: <CAFUHw76fHriX9UyTGGvixO+3AHP_fjEDV8eMWHdwtJmH8_Vr=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037467562@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

Dear Dr. Jha,

Sumpa Khanpo never travelled in India, though he voyaged extensively in China and Mongolia
(he was actually an Oirat Mongol, not a Tibetan), and was interested in geography and history
generally. His extensive autobiography has not so far been studied, but you will find a short
resume of his career in

Petech, Luciano. 1959. Preface to Lokesh Chandra. Ed. Dpag-bsam-ljon-bzan. New Delhi:
International Academy of Indian Culture.

I have written two articles dealing with him as well:

1989  ?The Purificatory Gem and its Cleansing: A Late Tibetan Polemical Discussion of Apocryphal Texts?. In History of Religions, 28/3, pp. 217-244.

2011 ?Just where on Jambudv?pa are we? New Geographical Knowledge and Old Cosmological Schemes in Eighteenth-century Tibet,? in Sheldon Pollock, ed., Forms of Knowledge in Early Modern Asia: Explorations in the Intellectual History of India and Tibet, 1500-1800. Durham NC: Duke University Press, pp. 336-364.

If you cannot locate them easily, I will be pleased to send you pdf-s.

with best regards,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________



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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 12:53:28 2014
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 18:23:28 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Wackernagel's Einleitung AiG I
Message-ID: <CABEB9qLewROVtrcAwWv8Ly-Sru9wYkFcs9v-zBEuXShk5qdaPA@mail.gmail.com>

2.7.14

indology at list.indology.info

Dear Colleagues,

I am sorry that I have to make an unusual request. I have Renou's
'Introduction g?n?rale' to the Altindische Grammatik Vol.1. Unfortunately
the first edition here has become brittle and is very difficult to use.
Could anyone kindly inform if the original 'Einleitung' is available
online? Renou's translation and notes are excellent and indispensable - no
doubt. But some of his renderings cannot give the exact import of the
original. It is not at all Renou's fault but a compulsory problem to be
faced by those using a translation.

Thanking in advance for any help and with best wishes

Sincerely

Dipak Bhattacharya


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From pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de  Wed Jul  2 13:28:25 2014
From: pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de (Peter Wyzlic)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 15:28:25 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Wackernagel's Einleitung AiG I
In-Reply-To: <CABEB9qLewROVtrcAwWv8Ly-Sru9wYkFcs9v-zBEuXShk5qdaPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53B408F9.2070702@uni-bonn.de>

Am 02.07.2014 14:53, schrieb Dipak Bhattacharya:
> I am sorry that I have to make an unusual request. I have Renou's 
> 'Introduction g?n?rale' to the Altindische Grammatik Vol.1. 
> Unfortunately the first edition here has become brittle and is very 
> difficult to use. Could anyone kindly inform if the original 
> 'Einleitung' is available online? Renou's translation and notes are 
> excellent and indispensable - no doubt. But some of his renderings 
> cannot give the exact import of the original. It is not at all Renou's 
> fault but a compulsory problem to be faced by those using a translation.
>

Try URL: <http://www.archive.org/details/altindischegram01debrgoog> or
URL: <http://www.archive.org/details/altindischegram02debrgoog>

If needed, Renou's Introduction g?n?rale is available here: 
<http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0006/bsb00064550/image_1>

Hope it helps
Peter Wyzlic

-- 
Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften
Bibliothek
Universit?t Bonn
Regina-Pacis-Weg 7
D-53113 Bonn






From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 16:10:46 2014
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 21:40:46 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AiG I Einleitung
Message-ID: <CABEB9qJ20HNu=WRh+ykm3BvmYH=GkZq2BPb4oD=B-b3zqrm+qg@mail.gmail.com>

*<*indology at list.indology.info*>*, <lubint at wlu.edu>, <
daniel at danielstender.com>, <pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de>, <ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com>

2.7.14

Dear Colleagues,

I sincerely thank my kind colleagues, Professors Tim Lubin, Daniel Stender,
Peter Wyzlik and Asok Aklujkar for the prompt reply sent by them along with
attachments that I downloaded and saved. There was some misunderstanding
that, however, has done no harm. The matter stands as follows

I do have Renou's Introduction g?n?rale - a relatively new and usable copy
of my own. What I lacked was the German Einleitung of 1896. Our University
Library does have it but it is so brittle that it is not lent for use and
cannot be Xeroxed. It was reserved for digitalization. Digitalization is on
but not yet complete. I enquired a few times. It had not been digitalized
till my last enquiry. I searched the few online archives/libraries but
could not trace the volume.

That forced me to request for help for the German Einleitung. I am deeply
indebted to the Indology site and the helping colleagues. And this is not
the first time I have been helped in urgent need.

Some unwanted rantings.

Everybody knows that even after Burrow Wackernagel/Renou's Introduction
g?n?rale stands a colossus among introductory essays on the language of
Sanskrit. But it offers a few problems particularly to teachers who try to
help students with it. One does not easily know which part is Renou's and
which part is Wackernagel's. Again unlike German, French may sometimes lend
itself to more than one interpretation. These make it imperative that one
should have both Renou and the original.

Best wishes everybody

Sincerely

Dipak Bhattacharya


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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 17:53:59 2014
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 13:53:59 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AiG I Einleitung
In-Reply-To: <CABEB9qJ20HNu=WRh+ykm3BvmYH=GkZq2BPb4oD=B-b3zqrm+qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zuY_fx+MLVh5ADQfTKWY6_KLhKrzAJ4rbH_HXinxnw8CQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dipak,

I'm not sure that I understand.  Do you still need Wackernagel's original
Einleitung, or do you have it already?

I don't have a pdf of it, but I have the original edition and could scan it
for you if necessary.

Best wishes,

George


On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> *<*indology at list.indology.info*>*, <lubint at wlu.edu>, <
> daniel at danielstender.com>, <pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de>, <
> ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com>
>
> 2.7.14
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> I sincerely thank my kind colleagues, Professors Tim Lubin, Daniel
> Stender, Peter Wyzlik and Asok Aklujkar for the prompt reply sent by them
> along with attachments that I downloaded and saved. There was some
> misunderstanding that, however, has done no harm. The matter stands as
> follows
>
> I do have Renou's Introduction g?n?rale - a relatively new and usable copy
> of my own. What I lacked was the German Einleitung of 1896. Our University
> Library does have it but it is so brittle that it is not lent for use and
> cannot be Xeroxed. It was reserved for digitalization. Digitalization is on
> but not yet complete. I enquired a few times. It had not been digitalized
> till my last enquiry. I searched the few online archives/libraries but
> could not trace the volume.
>
> That forced me to request for help for the German Einleitung. I am deeply
> indebted to the Indology site and the helping colleagues. And this is not
> the first time I have been helped in urgent need.
>
> Some unwanted rantings.
>
> Everybody knows that even after Burrow Wackernagel/Renou's Introduction
> g?n?rale stands a colossus among introductory essays on the language of
> Sanskrit. But it offers a few problems particularly to teachers who try to
> help students with it. One does not easily know which part is Renou's and
> which part is Wackernagel's. Again unlike German, French may sometimes lend
> itself to more than one interpretation. These make it imperative that one
> should have both Renou and the original.
>
> Best wishes everybody
>
> Sincerely
>
> Dipak Bhattacharya
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 18:22:49 2014
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 23:52:49 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AiG I Einleitung
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zuY_fx+MLVh5ADQfTKWY6_KLhKrzAJ4rbH_HXinxnw8CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABEB9q+TrijmrTE4OJtMiWxspicyo0PsBt2vOLhcfmzHStKedw@mail.gmail.com>

Many thanks, George! I have got the 'Einleitung' that I badly needed. Renou
has indeed made some vital changes even in the main body, I am now
confirmed. I can now also mark how far the end notes have been updated.
I repeat - I have got the part I needed.  So many distant friends!
You need not scan, tho I heartily thank you for the kind offer. I have been
using the AiG a,b,c,d as Hauschild has called them, for long.
I shall be glad to render any help that I offer from here.
Best wishes and thanks
DB



On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 11:23 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Dipak,
>
> I'm not sure that I understand.  Do you still need Wackernagel's original
> Einleitung, or do you have it already?
>
> I don't have a pdf of it, but I have the original edition and could scan
> it for you if necessary.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> George
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> *<*indology at list.indology.info*>*, <lubint at wlu.edu>, <
>> daniel at danielstender.com>, <pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de>, <
>> ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com>
>>
>> 2.7.14
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> I sincerely thank my kind colleagues, Professors Tim Lubin, Daniel
>> Stender, Peter Wyzlik and Asok Aklujkar for the prompt reply sent by them
>> along with attachments that I downloaded and saved. There was some
>> misunderstanding that, however, has done no harm. The matter stands as
>> follows
>>
>> I do have Renou's Introduction g?n?rale - a relatively new and usable
>> copy of my own. What I lacked was the German Einleitung of 1896. Our
>> University Library does have it but it is so brittle that it is not lent
>> for use and cannot be Xeroxed. It was reserved for digitalization.
>> Digitalization is on but not yet complete. I enquired a few times. It had
>> not been digitalized till my last enquiry. I searched the few online
>> archives/libraries but could not trace the volume.
>>
>> That forced me to request for help for the German Einleitung. I am deeply
>> indebted to the Indology site and the helping colleagues. And this is not
>> the first time I have been helped in urgent need.
>>
>> Some unwanted rantings.
>>
>> Everybody knows that even after Burrow Wackernagel/Renou's Introduction
>> g?n?rale stands a colossus among introductory essays on the language of
>> Sanskrit. But it offers a few problems particularly to teachers who try to
>> help students with it. One does not easily know which part is Renou's and
>> which part is Wackernagel's. Again unlike German, French may sometimes lend
>> itself to more than one interpretation. These make it imperative that one
>> should have both Renou and the original.
>>
>> Best wishes everybody
>>
>> Sincerely
>>
>> Dipak Bhattacharya
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>


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From emstern at verizon.net  Wed Jul  2 22:59:22 2014
From: emstern at verizon.net (Elliot Stern)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 14 18:59:22 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Contact information for Harunaga Isaacson
Message-ID: <F8054E4B-CC9A-4E7F-A1D3-55E35F0B8AF9@verizon.net>

I would like to thank all of the list members who replied online and offline to my inquiry.

Elliot


Dear List Members:

I have tried to send a private message to Haru at his university address (Harunaga.Isaacson at uni-hamburg.de) but the server appears to have classified it as spam once or twice. Other messages appear to go through but I get no response. Perhaps they end up in his junk mailbox. Thank you for any alternate email address.

Elliot


Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
United States of America
telephone: 215-747-6204
mobile: 267-240-8418
emstern at verizon.net



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From Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu  Thu Jul  3 01:18:48 2014
From: Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu (Walser, Joseph)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 14 01:18:48 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hindu Buddha
In-Reply-To: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9A1DE05E7@PEXMB001B.vu.local>
Message-ID: <5DCBDFC2-975E-47D0-B46C-F767470E445C@tufts.edu>

There are lots of interesting issues raised by your post that have not been exhausted by scholarship so far. I am at the beach right now and am not supposed to be writing lengthy emails, but I encourage you to look at Nathan McGovern's dissertation. In about 600 pages, he manages to engage most of the major issues in early Buddhist - Brahmin relations... His analysis of the suttanipata material is particularly interesting.
Cheers
J

On Jul 1, 2014, at 6:57 AM, "Bijlert, V.A. van" <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>> wrote:



________________________________
Subject: Hindu Buddha


Looking at the passage in Sutta Nipata, 1.7 (Vasalasutta) it does seem to describe an early form of Hinduism. It is interesting that the Buddha is approaching a Brahmin who is busy with a sacrifice and the Brahmin calls out to the Buddha to stay away: apparently because the shaven monk as a world-renouncer would be able to pollute the sacrifice. After all, the renouncer is as it were sociologically already dead. This would point to an early phase of urbanised and sedentary Hinduism, unless we assume the Sutta Nipata was composed much later and hence reflects an early form of Hinduism which may not have been in existence in the times of Buddha himself. But apart from this, the fact also seems to remain that the Buddha was for all practical purposes a world-renouncer.

Incidentally, in the text of the Sutta Nipata the word for 'outcast' or low caste is vasalaka / vasala allegedly from the Sanskrit vrishala (vRSala).

http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/ This is a link to the Pali Tipitaka.

Yours

Victor van Bijlert



________________________________

Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
http://listinfo.indology.info


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From clemency.montelle at canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Jul  3 04:26:12 2014
From: clemency.montelle at canterbury.ac.nz (Clemency Montelle)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 14 04:26:12 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Corrections in Manuscripts
In-Reply-To: <373FE003EA3D2949BCC16219C67CBBF74F19BD50@UCEXMBX04-I.canterbury.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <373FE003EA3D2949BCC16219C67CBBF74F19E029@UCEXMBX04-I.canterbury.ac.nz>

Dear All,

I have been considering the ways in which scribes made corrections in the manuscripts they were copying, specifically in numerical tables.  Of course, there are a variety of practices that  (some are neater than others!).  One way of interest is the use of what appears to be (in the colour copies of manuscripts I have) a yellowish paste or paint (an early version of modern day ?white-out? or ?twink??) which can then written over.

I attach a couple of examples. (The first example it has been used along several successive values in the third row, and in the second an entire column as well as individual entries.)

Does anybody know more about this technique?  What was the substance used?  How widespread is this?  Where can I read more about this?

With best wishes,
Clemency

Dr Clemency Montelle
http://www.math.canterbury.ac.nz/~c.montelle/
Department of Mathematics and Statistics
University of Canterbury | Te Whare Wananga o Waitaha
Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140
NEW ZEALAND
ph +64 3 364 2267
fax +64 3 364 2587


This email may be confidential and subject to legal privilege, it may
not reflect the views of the University of Canterbury, and it is not
guaranteed to be virus free. If you are not an intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and erase all copies of the message
and any attachments.

Please refer to http://www.canterbury.ac.nz/emaildisclaimer for more
information.


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From slaje at kabelmail.de  Thu Jul  3 05:33:21 2014
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 14 07:33:21 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Corrections in Manuscripts
In-Reply-To: <373FE003EA3D2949BCC16219C67CBBF74F19E029@UCEXMBX04-I.canterbury.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nUwrvV9A462A4Jo9MkM9ww53f+gH5FiDPqX822bi6VvCw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Clemency Montelle,

a recommendable start would be:


 Klaus Ludwig
<https://opac.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/DB=1/SET=1/TTL=12/MAT=/NOMAT=T/CLK?IKT=1016&TRM=Ludwig>
Janert, Bibliographie mit den Berichten ?ber
<https://opac.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/DB=1/SET=1/TTL=12/MAT=/NOMAT=T/CLK?IKT=1016&TRM=u%CC%88ber>
die m?ndliche
<https://opac.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/DB=1/SET=1/TTL=12/MAT=/NOMAT=T/CLK?IKT=1016&TRM=mu%CC%88ndliche>
und schriftliche
<https://opac.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/DB=1/SET=1/TTL=12/MAT=/NOMAT=T/CLK?IKT=1016&TRM=schriftliche>
Textweitergabe
<https://opac.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/DB=1/SET=1/TTL=12/MAT=/NOMAT=T/CLK?IKT=1016&TRM=Textweitergabe>
sowie
<https://opac.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/DB=1/SET=1/TTL=12/MAT=/NOMAT=T/CLK?IKT=1016&TRM=sowie>
die Schreibmaterialien
<https://opac.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/DB=1/SET=1/TTL=12/MAT=/NOMAT=T/CLK?IKT=1016&TRM=Schreibmaterialien>
in Indien
<https://opac.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/DB=1/SET=1/TTL=12/MAT=/NOMAT=T/CLK?IKT=1016&TRM=Indien>.
Bonn: VGH-Wiss.-Verl. 1995.



Katrin Einicke, Korrektur, Differenzierung und Abk?rzung in indischen
Inschriften und Handschriften. Wiesbaden 2009. [AKM 68].


Kindly regarding,

WS

-----------------------------
Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
D-99425 Weimar
Deutschland

Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor
studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum
non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam,
sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus
humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat.
Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII.


2014-07-03 6:26 GMT+02:00 Clemency Montelle <
clemency.montelle at canterbury.ac.nz>:

>  Dear All,
>
>
>
> I have been considering the ways in which scribes made corrections in the
> manuscripts they were copying, specifically in numerical tables.  Of
> course, there are a variety of practices that  (some are neater than
> others!).  One way of interest is the use of what appears to be (in the
> colour copies of manuscripts I have) a yellowish paste or paint (an early
> version of modern day ?white-out? or ?twink??) which can then written over.
>
>
>
> I attach a couple of examples. (The first example it has been used along
> several successive values in the third row, and in the second an entire
> column as well as individual entries.)
>
>
>
> Does anybody know more about this technique?  What was the substance
> used?  How widespread is this?  Where can I read more about this?
>
>
>
> With best wishes,
>
> Clemency
>
>
>
> Dr Clemency Montelle
>
> http://www.math.canterbury.ac.nz/~c.montelle/
>
> Department of Mathematics and Statistics
>
> University of Canterbury | Te Whare Wananga o Waitaha
>
> Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140
>
> NEW ZEALAND
>
> ph +64 3 364 2267
>
> fax +64 3 364 2587
>
>
>
> This email may be confidential and subject to legal privilege, it may
> not reflect the views of the University of Canterbury, and it is not
> guaranteed to be virus free. If you are not an intended recipient,
> please notify the sender immediately and erase all copies of the message
> and any attachments.
>
> Please refer to http://www.canterbury.ac.nz/emaildisclaimer for more
> information.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  3 05:37:18 2014
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (dhaval patel)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 14 11:07:18 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Corrections in Manuscripts
In-Reply-To: <373FE003EA3D2949BCC16219C67CBBF74F19E029@UCEXMBX04-I.canterbury.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <CADSGPzXrc0Rs9Asqs_zSJKVFVYvM=tHPvMN7z3hmLKp0FAFHPA@mail.gmail.com>

Respected scholar,
There is a very good book in Gujarati regarding the manuscriptology.
http://jainaelibrary.org/book.php?file=008464

Page 82 has some detail about the materials used for corrections in
manuscripts.

Similarly you can have a look at
http://jainaelibrary.org/book.php?file=003982
Here there are some sanskrit shlokas which show the method of preparation
of some of writing materials.


The materials which are used to strike off are known as "haritAla"
(sanskrit) and "safedo" (Gujarati - whitewash).
They are used to strike off letters.
The yellowish greenish tinge is most probably that of haritAla.

At the same time caution must be made regarding red (geru) colour. It is
usually used to highlight and not strike out the reading.





On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Clemency Montelle <
clemency.montelle at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:

>  Dear All,
>
>
>
> I have been considering the ways in which scribes made corrections in the
> manuscripts they were copying, specifically in numerical tables.  Of
> course, there are a variety of practices that  (some are neater than
> others!).  One way of interest is the use of what appears to be (in the
> colour copies of manuscripts I have) a yellowish paste or paint (an early
> version of modern day ?white-out? or ?twink??) which can then written over.
>
>
>
> I attach a couple of examples. (The first example it has been used along
> several successive values in the third row, and in the second an entire
> column as well as individual entries.)
>
>
>
> Does anybody know more about this technique?  What was the substance
> used?  How widespread is this?  Where can I read more about this?
>
>
>
> With best wishes,
>
> Clemency
>
>
>
> Dr Clemency Montelle
>
> http://www.math.canterbury.ac.nz/~c.montelle/
>
> Department of Mathematics and Statistics
>
> University of Canterbury | Te Whare Wananga o Waitaha
>
> Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140
>
> NEW ZEALAND
>
> ph +64 3 364 2267
>
> fax +64 3 364 2587
>
>
>
> This email may be confidential and subject to legal privilege, it may
> not reflect the views of the University of Canterbury, and it is not
> guaranteed to be virus free. If you are not an intended recipient,
> please notify the sender immediately and erase all copies of the message
> and any attachments.
>
> Please refer to http://www.canterbury.ac.nz/emaildisclaimer for more
> information.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
District Development Officer, Rajkot
www.sanskritworld.in


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From caf57 at cam.ac.uk  Fri Jul  4 07:11:32 2014
From: caf57 at cam.ac.uk (C.A. Formigatti)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 14 08:11:32 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Corrections in Manuscripts
In-Reply-To: <mailman.53.1404403219.31260.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <c63865fb896568c295adc84450e602ff@cam.ac.uk>

Dear Dr Montelle,

Besides the seminal work by Janetr suggested by Prof. Slaje and the two 
Gujarati works suggested by Dr Patel, it is worth having a look at 
Murthy's Introduction to Manuscriptology. According to Murthy (p. 109), 
"In a context, letter/s or word/s may have to be omitted. [...] 
sometimes, yellow pigment or turmeric is smeared over such portion."

This technique was very widespread, but judging from the manuscripts in 
our Cambridge collection (a fair sample of 1600 mss) I have the 
impression that it was applied more often on paper manuscripts, whereas 
in the case of palm-leaf manuscripts other techniques were more often 
employed -- for instance, expunction, deletion or erasing of the 
relevant aksaras or of an entire passage. Yet we do not have any 
quantitative study.

Another very useful book that you can consult on the topic of 
corrections is of course

Einicke, Katrin:
Korrektur, Differenzierung und Abk?rzung in indischen Inschriften und 
Handschriften / Katrin Einicke. - Wiesbaden : Harrassowitz, 2009.

Best wishes,

Camillo Formigatti

> Dear All,
> 
> I have been considering the ways in which scribes made corrections in
> the manuscripts they were copying, specifically in numerical tables.
> Of course, there are a variety of practices that (some are neater than
> others!). One way of interest is the use of what appears to be (in the
> colour copies of manuscripts I have) a yellowish paste or paint (an
> early version of modern day ?white-out? or ?twink??) which can
> then written over.
> 
> I attach a couple of examples. (The first example it has been used
> along several successive values in the third row, and in the second an
> entire column as well as individual entries.)
> 
> Does anybody know more about this technique? What was the substance
> used? How widespread is this? Where can I read more about this?
> 
> With best wishes,
> 
> Clemency
> 
> Dr Clemency Montelle
> 
> http://www.math.canterbury.ac.nz/~c.montelle/ [1]
> 
> Department of Mathematics and Statistics
> 
> University of Canterbury | Te Whare Wananga o Waitaha
> 
> Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140
> 
> NEW ZEALAND
> 
> ph +64 3 364 2267
> 
> fax +64 3 364 2587
> 
> This email may be confidential and subject to legal privilege, it may
> not reflect the views of the University of Canterbury, and it is not
> guaranteed to be virus free. If you are not an intended recipient,
> please notify the sender immediately and erase all copies of the
> message
> and any attachments.
> 
> Please refer to http://www.canterbury.ac.nz/emaildisclaimer for more
> information.
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info





From wujastyk at gmail.com  Fri Jul  4 13:11:37 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 14 15:11:37 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Krishnamachariar, History of Sanskrit Literature (1937)
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Ce8mVhsgOsu32umZvbfd1CAZkgBHJeFOpqLPEvLBQ8-7Q@mail.gmail.com>

I only have access to the digitized copy of Krishanmachariar's book
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/839nhwa6ebjuaic/HistoryOfClassicalSanskritLiterature-MKrishnamachariar.djvu>
that is at the Digital Library of India and Archive.org.  It is missing a
few pages here and there, including the page(s) after cxiv, that gives
Abbreviations up to "Sury Jl".

I wish to know what Krishnamachariar means by "TC".  Is it "Trivandrum
Catalogue", or perhaps Madras "Triennial Catalogue", or something else?  If
you have Krishanmachariar's book within easy reach, I would be very
grateful if you could tell me what TC stands for.  It's probably on page
cxv.

Many thanks,
Dominik


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Fri Jul  4 13:28:16 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 14 15:28:16 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Krishnamachariar,	History of Sanskrit Literature (1937)
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Ce8mVhsgOsu32umZvbfd1CAZkgBHJeFOpqLPEvLBQ8-7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CfYzY8cUKd1p=SfFRniM-9f-4aqmbzfCKTdzuDTYmr2Rg@mail.gmail.com>

Ken Zysk has just sent me the answer ("TC= Triennial Cat. Of Skt. Mss in
Oriental Library, Madras (I-VII).").

Many thanks!?
?  That took 11 minutes.  Wow!?

Dominik


On 4 July 2014 15:11, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I only have access to the digitized copy of Krishanmachariar's book that
is at the Digital Library of India and Archive.org.  It is missing a few
pages here and there, including the page(s) after cxiv, that gives
Abbreviations up to "Sury Jl".
>
> I wish to know what Krishnamachariar means by "TC".  Is it "Trivandrum
Catalogue", or perhaps Madras "Triennial Catalogue", or something else?  If
you have Krishanmachariar's book within easy reach, I would be very
grateful if you could tell me what TC stands for.  It's probably on page
cxv.
>
> Many thanks,
> Dominik
>


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From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de  Fri Jul  4 13:32:40 2014
From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 14 15:32:40 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Krishnamachariar, History of Sanskrit Literature (1937)
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Ce8mVhsgOsu32umZvbfd1CAZkgBHJeFOpqLPEvLBQ8-7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20140704153240.Horde.cY3uzJVsnxR2ln6GTicoBg1@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>

> I wish to know what Krishnamachariar means by "TC".

It is (p. xxi) "Triennial Cat. of Sanskrit Manuscripts in Oriental  
Library, Madras (I to VII)".

Best,
Roland Steiner






From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com  Fri Jul  4 13:43:12 2014
From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 14 15:43:12 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Looking for an article
Message-ID: <E9C304E9-3F7B-452A-AF39-10614187DA8F@gmail.com>

Dear All,

I am looking for a PDF of the following article:

"Concept of Tattva - A Study" by D.B. Sensharma, Published in Gopinath Kaviraj Felicitation Volume, Lucknow, 1967.>>

Would someone happened to have a PDF copy of this? I would indeed be grateful if someone has it and can share with me. 

Best wishes.

Mrinal Kaul




From zysk at hum.ku.dk  Sat Jul  5 11:52:28 2014
From: zysk at hum.ku.dk (Kenneth Gregory Zysk)
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 14 11:52:28 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with abbreviation
In-Reply-To: <20140704153240.Horde.cY3uzJVsnxR2ln6GTicoBg1@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>
Message-ID: <D08C2A94323FEC4D8F5E930CABEF2FDD285B2097@exmbx1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk>

I should be most grateful if someone could inform me what the abbreviation BK?S stands for in Willem Bollee's article "Folklore on the foot in pre-modern India" (Indologica Taurinensia, 34 2008). The version of the article that I have does not list the abbreviations.
Many thanks,
Ken

Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil
Head of Indology
Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
University of Copenhagen
Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10, 
DK-2300 Copenhagen S    Denmark
Ph:  +45 3532 8951			Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk






From zysk at hum.ku.dk  Sat Jul  5 12:03:59 2014
From: zysk at hum.ku.dk (Kenneth Gregory Zysk)
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 14 12:03:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with abbreviation
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C652223CDEF@SPMXM04.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <D08C2A94323FEC4D8F5E930CABEF2FDD285B20C3@exmbx1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk>

Many thanks.
Ken

Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil
Head of Indology
Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
University of Copenhagen
Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10, 
DK-2300 Copenhagen S    Denmark
Ph:  +45 3532 8951			Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk

-----Original Message-----
From: Tieken, H.J.H. [mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl] 
Sent: 05 July 2014 14:03
To: Kenneth Gregory Zysk
Subject: RE: Help with abbreviation

Br?hatkath??lokasa?graha


Herman Tieken
University of Leiden
The Netherlands
website: hermantieken.com

________________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Kenneth Gregory Zysk [zysk at hum.ku.dk]
Verzonden: zaterdag 5 juli 2014 13:52
To: indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Help with abbreviation

I should be most grateful if someone could inform me what the abbreviation BK?S stands for in Willem Bollee's article "Folklore on the foot in pre-modern India" (Indologica Taurinensia, 34 2008). The version of the article that I have does not list the abbreviations.
Many thanks,
Ken

Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil
Head of Indology
Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10,
DK-2300 Copenhagen S    Denmark
Ph:  +45 3532 8951                      Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info




From andra.kleb at gmail.com  Sat Jul  5 23:04:01 2014
From: andra.kleb at gmail.com (Andrey Klebanov)
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 14 01:04:01 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] intensive course on grammar and poetics
Message-ID: <A4EB4DA0-932E-4BD1-A0E7-E0C14DFF16AE@gmail.com>

Dear members of the list,

I would like to kindly draw your attention to the two-week "Intensive Course on Indian Grammar and Poetics" to be taught by Dr. SLP Anjaneya Sarma (EFEO Pondicherry) at the University of Hamburg on September 15th to 26th (2014).

You can find the complete description of the course as well as the online registration form (the application is now open) on the site of the department for Indian and Tibetan Studies here:
http://www.aai.uni-hamburg.de/indtib/icigp2014.html

In case you are teaching at an institution, please, circulate this information among your students.

with best wishes and apologies for cross-posting,
Andrey Klebanov

sent from my iPad




From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 00:03:57 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 14 17:03:57 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN-NbJ9U--QGOm1X13ncicWyCo=947tHtBCvaK6+QzLVJw@mail.gmail.com>

 Dear respected colleagues,

I wonder if anyone here knows about alchemy (ras?yana) and can clarify the
meaning of the word *j?r?a *in that context. In the passage below (?Pvv III
p. 328), in discussing mystical experience, Abhinavagupta uses an
alchemical metaphor involving *siddharasa *(? mercury)*, drutarasa, *and
*kanakadh?tu*. The meaning of the passage is fairly clear to me, I am just
wondering about the alchemical significance of of *j?r?a *(matured?) and
*drutarasa*.

the passage follows.

*yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
*yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o ?tyanta?
kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti kevala?
tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati*
'But when the [layers of limited selfhood] from Void to the physical body
are penetrated by the ?alchemical elixir? that is the (true)
I-sense?replete with the sovereignty of the qualities of eternality,
all-pervasiveness, etc. which are cognized [as aspects of that I], by which
their objectivity falls away as it were, then it is the Fourth State.
When, further, these elements of *pr?**?a*, body, etc., penetrated by the
elixir of Consciousness, are completely immersed [in it], they are
?matured? like the element of gold . . .'(?)


best wishes,

Christopher Wallis, M.A. (Cal), M.Phil. (Oxon), Ph.D. (ABD, Cal)


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From ph2046 at columbia.edu  Mon Jul  7 00:38:50 2014
From: ph2046 at columbia.edu (Paul Hackett)
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 14 20:38:50 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN-NbJ9U--QGOm1X13ncicWyCo=947tHtBCvaK6+QzLVJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9843EEC1-1896-4F73-8B06-EBB4F1C89DE4@columbia.edu>

Dear Christopher,

On Jul 6, 2014, at 8:03 PM, Christopher Wallis wrote:

> When, further, these elements of pr??a, body, etc., penetrated by the elixir of Consciousness, are completely immersed [in it], they are ?matured? like the element of gold . . .'(?)

   The Parad Sa?hita (and presumably other related texts) specifies a number of alchemical preparations of mercury, in which it is combined with gold and/or arsenic, which serve to purify and de-toxify it, rendering the mercury suitable for consumption.  I suspect the reference to "gold" here is along these lines, and so would take "matured" in the sense of "perfected", and hence read the passage more like "... they are ?matured? like [mercury] with the element of gold ..."

Regards,

Paul Hackett
Columbia University



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From slaje at kabelmail.de  Mon Jul  7 04:45:37 2014
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 14 06:45:37 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN-NbJ9U--QGOm1X13ncicWyCo=947tHtBCvaK6+QzLVJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nV7xesUZwsD5iffPEtkkugbvjfpF3G5hRH9nOG8bSz_mg@mail.gmail.com>

You may wish to consult

Oliver Hellwig, W?rterbuch der mittelalterlichen indischen Alchemie.
Groningen 2009 [Supplements to eJIM.2.]

on such matters.

Kindly regarding,
WS


-----------------------------
Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
D-99425 Weimar
Deutschland

Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor
studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum
non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam,
sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus
humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat.
Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII.


2014-07-07 2:03 GMT+02:00 Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com>:

> Dear respected colleagues,
>
> I wonder if anyone here knows about alchemy (ras?yana) and can clarify the
> meaning of the word *j?r?a *in that context. In the passage below (?Pvv
> III p. 328), in discussing mystical experience, Abhinavagupta uses an
> alchemical metaphor involving *siddharasa *(? mercury)*, drutarasa, *and
> *kanakadh?tu*. The meaning of the passage is fairly clear to me, I am
> just wondering about the alchemical significance of of *j?r?a *(matured?) and
> *drutarasa*.
>
> the passage follows.
>
> *yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
> ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
> tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
> *yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o ?tyanta?
> kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti kevala?
> tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati*
> 'But when the [layers of limited selfhood] from Void to the physical body
> are penetrated by the ?alchemical elixir? that is the (true)
> I-sense?replete with the sovereignty of the qualities of eternality,
> all-pervasiveness, etc. which are cognized [as aspects of that I], by which
> their objectivity falls away as it were, then it is the Fourth State.
> When, further, these elements of *pr?**?a*, body, etc., penetrated by the
> elixir of Consciousness, are completely immersed [in it], they are
> ?matured? like the element of gold . . .'(?)
>
>
> best wishes,
>
> Christopher Wallis, M.A. (Cal), M.Phil. (Oxon), Ph.D. (ABD, Cal)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Mon Jul  7 06:48:58 2014
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 14 06:48:58 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian reprint
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C652223D0B5@SPMXM04.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear list members,

Through a friend Peter Khoroche learnt that our book Poems on Life and Love in Ancient India. H?la's Sattasa? (Albany: SUNY Press 2009) has been reprinted in India by Motilal Banarsidass. It is not just a reprint. To begin with, Motilal has changed the title (Poems of Love ? instead of Poems on Love ?). Furthermore they have added a subtitle G?th?sapta?at? in Pr?krit as though the Sattasa? were translated from a Sanskrit original. To make matters worse, in the advertisement Motilal confused me with Hermann Jacobi. They could not even get the latter's name right and wrote Herman (with one n) Jacobi. When we contacted SUNY Press to find out what had happened we were told off: subsidiary rights sales are handled exclusively by SUNY Press as the publisher, so who were we to bother them with our questions. A sobering experience!

Herman Tieken


Herman Tieken
University of Leiden
The Netherlands
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 13:36:40 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 14 15:36:40 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN-NbJ9U--QGOm1X13ncicWyCo=947tHtBCvaK6+QzLVJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CdvcFXMQARLggV9mGDT3wSMp234EZrKr8YgfZBWY6UZgA@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think vidhyate means "is penetrated."  I think it means
"transmuted."  Or even "multiplied."  Actually, I'm not really sure what it
means.  But "vedhana" isn't simply "piercing" in rasa??stra literature.  It
seems to correspond to what the classical (Greek and Latin) authors mean
when they talk about transmutation and multiplication (increase) of
substances.  In your text, vidhyate is used synonymically (?) with
abhini+vi?.  Infused?  Permeated?  I'm really not sure what the alchemical
simile is, so I would be urge caution with the application of a chemical
metaphor to the philosophical case.  Maybe you could work backwards, if you
know pretty much what Abhinavagupta is saying philosophically, we could
deduce what he thought the chemical processes were.  I think transmutation
or transformation might work.

About j?r?a, I think it's the same as one of the 16 rasa-sa?sk?ras, j?ra?a
a form of chemical digestion (perhaps, in modern terminology, oxidation).
I'll leave it to others to say more.
Best,
Dominik





On 7 July 2014 02:03, Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear respected colleagues,
>
> I wonder if anyone here knows about alchemy (ras?yana) and can clarify the
> meaning of the word *j?r?a *in that context. In the passage below (?Pvv
> III p. 328), in discussing mystical experience, Abhinavagupta uses an
> alchemical metaphor involving *siddharasa *(? mercury)*, drutarasa, *and
> *kanakadh?tu*. The meaning of the passage is fairly clear to me, I am
> just wondering about the alchemical significance of of *j?r?a *(matured?) and
> *drutarasa*.
>
> the passage follows.
>
> *yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
> ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
> tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
> *yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o ?tyanta?
> kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti kevala?
> tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati*
> 'But when the [layers of limited selfhood] from Void to the physical body
> are penetrated by the ?alchemical elixir? that is the (true)
> I-sense?replete with the sovereignty of the qualities of eternality,
> all-pervasiveness, etc. which are cognized [as aspects of that I], by which
> their objectivity falls away as it were, then it is the Fourth State.
> When, further, these elements of *pr?**?a*, body, etc., penetrated by the
> elixir of Consciousness, are completely immersed [in it], they are
> ?matured? like the element of gold . . .'(?)
>
>
> best wishes,
>
> Christopher Wallis, M.A. (Cal), M.Phil. (Oxon), Ph.D. (ABD, Cal)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 13:41:21 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 14 15:41:21 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian reprint
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C652223D0B5@SPMXM04.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeZcjhT07=Gapu03H5TaKcMVrno5LYyZ=p+CrfP3j6c_A@mail.gmail.com>

I learned this the hard way too.  Sometimes one takes great care in getting
the terms of a book contract fair, only to have the whole effort undermined
when the publisher licenses the rights to someone else.

However, the folks at Motilal are well-meaning and I cannot imagine that
they would not cooperate with putting things right if you contact them
directly.

Best of luck!
Dominik


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Mon Jul  7 14:25:37 2014
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 14 14:25:37 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CdvcFXMQARLggV9mGDT3wSMp234EZrKr8YgfZBWY6UZgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037468E74@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

You may be interested to compare Bodhicary?vat?ra 1.10, which uses a similar metaphor.
In this case, in the line
rasaj?tam at?va vedhan?yam,

vedhan?yam must mean something like "catalytic."

The Tibetan in this case paraphrases, saying "the finest form of the gold-transmuting essence"
(gser 'gyur rtsi yi rnam pa) and the available Skt. commentator, Praj??karamati, is not very helpful.
In his gloss on vedhan?yam he writes  only:
kartari an?ya.h kara.ne v?

Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________



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From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 17:11:00 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 14 10:11:00 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037468E74@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN8LEvYvtyOxji3fwJf783Q1XAxRmTiuud5q+8z=ENB-PQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Prof. Kapstein,

I'm so grateful for this reference, or rather reminder, since I read
the *Bodhicary?vat?ra
*so long ago I had forgotten. I'm not sure what catalytic would mean here;
I think this verse lends credence to Dominik's reading of "transmuted", and
this is also how Vesna Wallace translates this BCA verse. But at the same
time it's mysterious, because surely *rasaj?ta *is what transmutes, not
what must be transmuted!  So the Tibetan rephrase makes sense; the
translator thought the same thing.

gratefully,

Christopher Wallis, M.A. (Cal), M.Phil. (Oxon), Ph.D. (ABD, Cal)



On 7 July 2014 07:25, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:

>  You may be interested to compare Bodhicary?vat?ra 1.10, which uses a
> similar metaphor.
> In this case, in the line
> rasaj?tam at?va vedhan?yam,
>
> vedhan?yam must mean something like "catalytic."
>
> The Tibetan in this case paraphrases, saying "the finest form of the
> gold-transmuting essence"
> (gser 'gyur rtsi yi rnam pa) and the available Skt. commentator,
> Praj??karamati, is not very helpful.
> In his gloss on vedhan?yam he writes  only:
> kartari an?ya.h kara.ne v?
>
> Matthew
>
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
>   ------------------------------
>
>


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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 17:14:20 2014
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 14 22:44:20 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian reprint
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeZcjhT07=Gapu03H5TaKcMVrno5LYyZ=p+CrfP3j6c_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qJ6V+E=nkqPJ0dkrhoaSGFPdxvAuNuEEZ0+6i5hqJkfZg@mail.gmail.com>

Some publishers like the Cosmo Publishers do not even care to reply.after
getting a book or a part of a book plagiarized. Even Government
publications are reprinted before the expiry of copyright and without any
assignment. I know that such things happen in Delhi. The matter came up in
the List even before this. Victimized authors should unitedly fight against
plagiarisn or robbery of copyright.
Best
DB


On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

> I learned this the hard way too.  Sometimes one takes great care in
> getting the terms of a book contract fair, only to have the whole effort
> undermined when the publisher licenses the rights to someone else.
>
> However, the folks at Motilal are well-meaning and I cannot imagine that
> they would not cooperate with putting things right if you contact them
> directly.
>
> Best of luck!
> Dominik
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 17:41:35 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 14 10:41:35 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CdvcFXMQARLggV9mGDT3wSMp234EZrKr8YgfZBWY6UZgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN9uBN5rYfowJ2hbSkj4NT_NnVijjvKO5QeB81gk+3=hkg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks so much for your reply, Dominik. It is very helpful, since I have
been confused about the meaning of vedha/vedhana in these texts. I have
been translating it as piercing, since the context often is a transmission (
*sankramana*) of spiritual energy from guru to disciple, but it has not
been entirely satisfactory. Do you have a reference to its use in
rasa-??stra?  In the passage I cited, I don't think it's quite synonymous
with abhini+vi?, I think the latter is a further stage in the process,
because it goes with *tury?t?ta-da?? *while the *vidh *verb goes with
*tury?-da??*. So, infused then immersed?

To explain the passage briefly as I now understand it, when the layers of
subjectivity which are actually objects (e.g. body etc.) are
permeated/infused/penetrated (*vidhyate*) by the elixir of awakened
consciousness, they are transmuted and shine like gold, i.e. appear as
expressions of that consciousness rather than separate objects. Further
immersion (*abhinivi??a*) in this elixir of consciousness
digests/oxidizes/wears (*j?r?a*) away the gold, leaving only the liquid
essence itself, with no trace of objectivity. This seems to fit within the
larger scope of his argument and avoid doing violence to the alchemical
metaphor, which of course I don't completely understand.  any further
comments welcome.

gratefully yours,

Christopher Wallis, M.A. (Cal), M.Phil. (Oxon), Ph.D. (ABD, Cal)




On 7 July 2014 06:36, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't think vidhyate means "is penetrated."  I think it means
> "transmuted."  Or even "multiplied."  Actually, I'm not really sure what it
> means.  But "vedhana" isn't simply "piercing" in rasa??stra literature.  It
> seems to correspond to what the classical (Greek and Latin) authors mean
> when they talk about transmutation and multiplication (increase) of
> substances.  In your text, vidhyate is used synonymically (?) with
> abhini+vi?.  Infused?  Permeated?  I'm really not sure what the alchemical
> simile is, so I would be urge caution with the application of a chemical
> metaphor to the philosophical case.  Maybe you could work backwards, if you
> know pretty much what Abhinavagupta is saying philosophically, we could
> deduce what he thought the chemical processes were.  I think transmutation
> or transformation might work.
>
> About j?r?a, I think it's the same as one of the 16 rasa-sa?sk?ras, j?ra?a
> a form of chemical digestion (perhaps, in modern terminology, oxidation).
> I'll leave it to others to say more.
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7 July 2014 02:03, Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear respected colleagues,
>>
>> I wonder if anyone here knows about alchemy (ras?yana) and can clarify
>> the meaning of the word *j?r?a *in that context. In the passage below
>> (?Pvv III p. 328), in discussing mystical experience, Abhinavagupta uses an
>> alchemical metaphor involving *siddharasa *(? mercury)*, drutarasa, *and
>> *kanakadh?tu*. The meaning of the passage is fairly clear to me, I am
>> just wondering about the alchemical significance of of *j?r?a *(matured?) and
>> *drutarasa*.
>>
>> the passage follows.
>>
>> *yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
>> ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
>> tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
>> *yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o
>> ?tyanta? kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti
>> kevala? tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati*
>> 'But when the [layers of limited selfhood] from Void to the physical body
>> are penetrated by the ?alchemical elixir? that is the (true)
>> I-sense?replete with the sovereignty of the qualities of eternality,
>> all-pervasiveness, etc. which are cognized [as aspects of that I], by which
>> their objectivity falls away as it were, then it is the Fourth State.
>> When, further, these elements of *pr?**?a*, body, etc., penetrated by
>> the elixir of Consciousness, are completely immersed [in it], they are
>> ?matured? like the element of gold . . .'(?)
>>
>>
>> best wishes,
>>
>> Christopher Wallis, M.A. (Cal), M.Phil. (Oxon), Ph.D. (ABD, Cal)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Mon Jul  7 18:00:10 2014
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 14 18:00:10 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian reprint
In-Reply-To: <CABEB9qJ6V+E=nkqPJ0dkrhoaSGFPdxvAuNuEEZ0+6i5hqJkfZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C652223D1A8@SPMXM04.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear list members
A brief comment: Motilal had received permission from SUNY Press to bring out an Indian edition. The fault lies primarily with SUNY, which did not bother to inform us about it and bring Motilal into contact with Peter Khoroche and me as authors.


Herman Tieken
University of Leiden
The Netherlands
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: Dipak Bhattacharya [dipak.d2004 at gmail.com]
Verzonden: maandag 7 juli 2014 19:14
To: Dominik Wujastyk
Cc: Tieken, H.J.H.; Indology
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Indian reprint

Some publishers like the Cosmo Publishers do not even care to reply.after getting a book or a part of a book plagiarized. Even Government publications are reprinted before the expiry of copyright and without any assignment. I know that such things happen in Delhi. The matter came up in the List even before this. Victimized authors should unitedly fight against plagiarisn or robbery of copyright.
Best
DB


On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com<mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>> wrote:
I learned this the hard way too.  Sometimes one takes great care in getting the terms of a book contract fair, only to have the whole effort undermined when the publisher licenses the rights to someone else.

However, the folks at Motilal are well-meaning and I cannot imagine that they would not cooperate with putting things right if you contact them directly.

Best of luck!
Dominik


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
http://listinfo.indology.info



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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 18:14:36 2014
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 14 20:14:36 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037468E74@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoBvRqp5LAHRY7HNn13FLM-znfRcwmU3_rkNBhKtnGm-VQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Christopher,
In addition to the valuable observations already made I would like to point
out that j?r?a here probably refers (indeed) to the or a sa?sk?ra of
j?ra?a having
been performed, (however) with j?ra?a not in the sense of m?ra?a (which is
often [partly] parallel to what was called calcination in the past: heating
leading to oxidation in the case of metals, to elimination of CO2 and or
H2O etc. in the case of some minerals) but very precisely in the sense of
swallowing or digestion or assimilation (as mercury is able to dissolve
metals including gold but also minerals such as abhra or mica: initially
the mercury remains as fluid as before it started to "eat" the gold etc.
but at a certain point its viscosity increases significantly).
In Abhinavagupta's "fourth state" the objectivity
of ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? "permeated" by "consciousness" (having
undergone the procedure or sa?sk?ra of  vedha by "consciousness") starts to
fall away as it were,
in the "state beyond the fourth" that objectivity is entirely "swallowed" /
"dissolved" by consciousness just as gold is entirely "swallowed" by the
fluid rasa i.e. mercury.
The tertium comparationis in the case of gold would then not be its beauty
or shiny nature but its capability of being "swallowed" by mercury (which
remains fluid or druta as long as it is not saturated).
I also agree that the already mentioned rich, encyclopedic Woerterbuch
of Oliver Hellwig (W?rterbuch der mittelalterlichen indischen Alchemie.
Groningen 2009 Supplements to eJournal for Indian Medicine, 2) is a must
for a fullfledged analysis of the fascinating passage you cite as it shows
with numerous citations and translations that major texts may differ
considerably in the concepts and procedures they accept.
Regarding vedha and its application to the human body (dehavedha) you may
also wish to consult Gordon White's The Alchemical Body Chicago 1996.
Jan Houben


Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben,
Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ?
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP,
A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles,
75005 Paris -- France.
JEMHouben at gmail.com
*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*



On 7 July 2014 16:25, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:

>  You may be interested to compare Bodhicary?vat?ra 1.10, which uses a
> similar metaphor.
> In this case, in the line
> rasaj?tam at?va vedhan?yam,
>
> vedhan?yam must mean something like "catalytic."
>
> The Tibetan in this case paraphrases, saying "the finest form of the
> gold-transmuting essence"
> (gser 'gyur rtsi yi rnam pa) and the available Skt. commentator,
> Praj??karamati, is not very helpful.
> In his gloss on vedhan?yam he writes  only:
> kartari an?ya.h kara.ne v?
>
> Matthew
>
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
>   ------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 18:30:59 2014
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 14 00:00:59 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian reprint
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C652223D1A8@SPMXM04.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qLZST=_UZ-Ms256KzdRqTetEZdLdeA=y8smx++Di+k-Hg@mail.gmail.com>

It goes to the credit of MLBD that they worked within the law befitting to
their reputation and goowill. But that cannot be said of dozen other
publishers of Delhi. The most unfortunate aspect is that there is no remedy
excepting bringing lawsuits against the perpetrators of the crime. That is
time consuming and expensive. Often the victim has to give up.
Best
DB


On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 11:30 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <
H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:

>  Dear list members
> A brief comment: Motilal had received permission from SUNY Press to bring
> out an Indian edition. The fault lies primarily with SUNY, which did not
> bother to inform us about it and bring Motilal into contact with Peter
> Khoroche and me as authors.
>
>
>
>  Herman Tieken
> University of Leiden
> The Netherlands
>  website: hermantieken.com
>    ------------------------------
> *Van:* Dipak Bhattacharya [dipak.d2004 at gmail.com]
> *Verzonden:* maandag 7 juli 2014 19:14
> *To:* Dominik Wujastyk
> *Cc:* Tieken, H.J.H.; Indology
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Indian reprint
>
>   Some publishers like the Cosmo Publishers do not even care to
> reply.after getting a book or a part of a book plagiarized. Even Government
> publications are reprinted before the expiry of copyright and without any
> assignment. I know that such things happen in Delhi. The matter came up in
> the List even before this. Victimized authors should unitedly fight against
> plagiarisn or robbery of copyright.
> Best
> DB
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>  I learned this the hard way too.  Sometimes one takes great care in
>> getting the terms of a book contract fair, only to have the whole effort
>> undermined when the publisher licenses the rights to someone else.
>>
>>  However, the folks at Motilal are well-meaning and I cannot imagine
>> that they would not cooperate with putting things right if you contact them
>> directly.
>>
>>  Best of luck!
>> Dominik
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>


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From hermantull at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 19:16:05 2014
From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 14 15:16:05 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian reprint
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C652223D1A8@SPMXM04.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <CAFdBLNh-oWtYohtE1SZ_oU4WVEcSou77xbZO=MowD2wQmr0czw@mail.gmail.com>

I was an early author in SUNY's foray into Indian/Hindu studies.  (My 1989
book on karma was, I believe, the first book published in their Series in
Hindu Studies.)  I seem to recall a conversation from long ago that
indicated that, at some point in the book's publishing history, SUNY
reserved the right to sell the publishing rights in India.  Indeed, the
year after its US publication, the book did appear with an Indian imprint,
and I was given a small royalty. SUNY's direct sales continued to be
credited to me, however.

I was quite pleased with this process...at the very least, it made the book
available to a wider audience, and the Indian edition replicated the US
edition more or less precisely, though at a much lower price. I imagine it
also helped SUNY financially, and perhaps even allowed them to continue
with their commitment to the series.

Of course, I agree wholeheartedly with Herman Tieken that he should have
been informed by SUNY of its intent with his work. Still, having our
scholarship disseminated as widely as possible is, in and of itself, a
"good" thing (leaving aside thorny questions of piracy, "open-access" seems
to be the way of the future).

Herman Tull
(the "other" Herman)


On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <
H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:

>  Dear list members
> A brief comment: Motilal had received permission from SUNY Press to bring
> out an Indian edition. The fault lies primarily with SUNY, which did not
> bother to inform us about it and bring Motilal into contact with Peter
> Khoroche and me as authors.
>
>
>
>  Herman Tieken
> University of Leiden
> The Netherlands
>  website: hermantieken.com
>    ------------------------------
> *Van:* Dipak Bhattacharya [dipak.d2004 at gmail.com]
> *Verzonden:* maandag 7 juli 2014 19:14
> *To:* Dominik Wujastyk
> *Cc:* Tieken, H.J.H.; Indology
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Indian reprint
>
>   Some publishers like the Cosmo Publishers do not even care to
> reply.after getting a book or a part of a book plagiarized. Even Government
> publications are reprinted before the expiry of copyright and without any
> assignment. I know that such things happen in Delhi. The matter came up in
> the List even before this. Victimized authors should unitedly fight against
> plagiarisn or robbery of copyright.
> Best
> DB
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>  I learned this the hard way too.  Sometimes one takes great care in
>> getting the terms of a book contract fair, only to have the whole effort
>> undermined when the publisher licenses the rights to someone else.
>>
>>  However, the folks at Motilal are well-meaning and I cannot imagine
>> that they would not cooperate with putting things right if you contact them
>> directly.
>>
>>  Best of luck!
>> Dominik
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 

*Herman TullPrinceton, NJ *


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Mon Jul  7 20:01:30 2014
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 14 20:01:30 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN8LEvYvtyOxji3fwJf783Q1XAxRmTiuud5q+8z=ENB-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED037468F26@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

Dear Christopher,

"catalytic" meaning "pertaining to that which acts as a catalyst," which in turn is
1. a substance that causes or speeds a chemical reaction without itself being affected.
2. a person or thing that precipitates an event or change.

I.e., "catalytic" = "bringing about a transformation"

which is how I understand Prajnakaramati's causative interpretation.
But the Tibetan paraphrase seems fine as well.

all best,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________



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From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 22:58:40 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 14 15:58:40 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoBvRqp5LAHRY7HNn13FLM-znfRcwmU3_rkNBhKtnGm-VQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN_161VJYh8vZGMcvcJaq0_5HJ2kfznqpJdVQdvVAoNC8A@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you very much Dr Houben for this extremely valuable additional
information!

best, CW

On 7 July 2014 11:14, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Christopher,
> In addition to the valuable observations already made I would like to
> point out that j?r?a here probably refers (indeed) to the or a sa?sk?ra
> of j?ra?a having been performed, (however) with j?ra?a not in the sense
> of m?ra?a (which is often [partly] parallel to what was called
> calcination in the past: heating leading to oxidation in the case of
> metals, to elimination of CO2 and or H2O etc. in the case of some minerals)
> but very precisely in the sense of swallowing or digestion or assimilation
> (as mercury is able to dissolve metals including gold but also minerals
> such as abhra or mica: initially the mercury remains as fluid as before it
> started to "eat" the gold etc. but at a certain point its viscosity
> increases significantly).
> In Abhinavagupta's "fourth state" the objectivity
> of ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? "permeated" by "consciousness" (having
> undergone the procedure or sa?sk?ra of  vedha by "consciousness") starts
> to fall away as it were,
> in the "state beyond the fourth" that objectivity is entirely "swallowed"
> / "dissolved" by consciousness just as gold is entirely "swallowed" by the
> fluid rasa i.e. mercury.
> The tertium comparationis in the case of gold would then not be its beauty
> or shiny nature but its capability of being "swallowed" by mercury (which
> remains fluid or druta as long as it is not saturated).
> I also agree that the already mentioned rich, encyclopedic Woerterbuch
> of Oliver Hellwig (W?rterbuch der mittelalterlichen indischen Alchemie.
> Groningen 2009 Supplements to eJournal for Indian Medicine, 2) is a must
> for a fullfledged analysis of the fascinating passage you cite as it shows
> with numerous citations and translations that major texts may differ
> considerably in the concepts and procedures they accept.
> Regarding vedha and its application to the human body (dehavedha) you may
> also wish to consult Gordon White's The Alchemical Body Chicago 1996.
> Jan Houben
>
>
> Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben,
> Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ?
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP,
> A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles,
> 75005 Paris -- France.
> JEMHouben at gmail.com
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>
>
>
> On 7 July 2014 16:25, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>>  You may be interested to compare Bodhicary?vat?ra 1.10, which uses a
>> similar metaphor.
>> In this case, in the line
>> rasaj?tam at?va vedhan?yam,
>>
>> vedhan?yam must mean something like "catalytic."
>>
>> The Tibetan in this case paraphrases, saying "the finest form of the
>> gold-transmuting essence"
>> (gser 'gyur rtsi yi rnam pa) and the available Skt. commentator,
>> Praj??karamati, is not very helpful.
>> In his gloss on vedhan?yam he writes  only:
>> kartari an?ya.h kara.ne v?
>>
>> Matthew
>>
>>
>> Matthew Kapstein
>> Directeur d'?tudes,
>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>>
>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>> The University of Chicago
>>   ------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>


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From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Tue Jul  8 04:34:48 2014
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 14 21:34:48 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN9uBN5rYfowJ2hbSkj4NT_NnVijjvKO5QeB81gk+3=hkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D1C8D3F2-AEC2-4F9E-BA53-2CB09A41B440@mail.ubc.ca>

The understanding of the passage that is being proposed is largely on the right track, especially with the contribution of Dominik.However, I should draw attention to two points that may lead to a different understanding of the chemical/alchemical process.

1. Literally, the translation of yena prameyatv?t tat cyavata iva should be 
	"whereby that (thing ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta) slips down/falls away, as it were, from being an object of cognition" (i.e., it ceases to be -- no longer figures in -- cognition, although it is out there as before)," 
	not 
	"by which their objectivity falls away as it were". 
	Note that the subject of cyavate is tat,  a neuter gender word, and prameyatv?t is an ablative. ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta is a bahu-vriihi and, therefore, something like 'thing', 'entity', 'assemblage' must be understood as its vi;se.sya. 
	Now, one can say that the earlier translation may be grammatically opaque but it essentially conveys the same thing as the translation I have offered. However, as you will see from the next point, the literal translation assists us in understanding the analogy rightly. 

2. In pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o ?tyanta? kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate, one would expect pure consciousness to be similar to pure gold. It would be inappropriate to compare it with what is left after gold is taken out. The process conveyed by j?r?a? should, therefore, be one in which impurities of gold are taken out as a result of its saturation by something (there is no word in the passage that would suggest that we should set aside the usual meanings of vidhyate, viddha and abhinivi.s.ta ranging from 'pierce' to 'permeate').

That that 'something' is paarada 'mercury' is what we learn from Rasa-ratna-samuccaya 5.11: ????? ???????? -- ????-????? ?????? ????????. 

Note that here gold is spoken of as the outcome, not anything else that goes with gold. 

The same Rasa-ratna-samuccaya, at 5.21-22, speaks of ??????? ????? ?????? ????-???? ?? ?????, which 'liquidity' notion is also found in the Abhinava-gupta passage under consideration. 

(I give the Rasa-ratna-samuccaya references according to the ?????????? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ???????, p. 1628, of ???????????????? ???? and ?????? ??? ????, ?????? : ?????????? ????? ??????? ??? ???????? ????, ????. I do not have access at the moment to the Rasa-ratna-samuccaya itself).
	
a.a.


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Tue Jul  8 05:58:50 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 14 07:58:50 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN9uBN5rYfowJ2hbSkj4NT_NnVijjvKO5QeB81gk+3=hkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeoAfmg-SVYypsSZJ+XDvwt0abq4UL71cBHT=7QreD3NQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Christopher, no, sorry, I haven't got any proper documentation for
vedha as "transmute, multiply."  I'm just reporting my sense as a reader of
some of these texts over a period of time.  Almost every translation I've
ever seen (Skt - English) says "pierce".  But it just doesn't make sense to
me.  I'm had a look around to see whether there was another dh?tu vidh, but
there isn't.

Incidentally, on sa?krama?a, it's the word that's used in Ayurveda for
contagion.  The concept of contagion is almost completely unknown in
Ayurveda, but in those rare cases that it is mentioned, it's sam+kram.
There are good essays by Zysk and Das on this in a book *Contagion* that I
edited with Larry Conrad some years back.

Best,
Dominik



On 7 July 2014 19:41, Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks so much for your reply, Dominik. It is very helpful, since I have
> been confused about the meaning of vedha/vedhana in these texts. I have
> been translating it as piercing, since the context often is a transmission (
> *sankramana*) of spiritual energy from guru to disciple, but it has not
> been entirely satisfactory. Do you have a reference to its use in
> rasa-??stra?
> ?[...]?
>


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From glhart at berkeley.edu  Tue Jul  8 15:56:01 2014
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 14 08:56:01 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] intensive course on grammar and poetics
In-Reply-To: <A4EB4DA0-932E-4BD1-A0E7-E0C14DFF16AE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CB0C8E7C-85A6-4104-A767-0FAB546FAC0D@berkeley.edu>

I wonder whether I am the only one on this list who finds the title of this course misleading.  The course deals with Sanskrit and only Sanskrit, which is, of course, fine.  But by titling itself ?Intensive Course on Indian Grammar and Poetics,? it slights the many other grammatical and poetic traditions of India and may mislead students and others into thinking Sanskrit is the only language in which such traditions exist.  The truth is quite different, of course.  The Dravidian languages (and, I believe many of the Indo-Aryan languages) all have extremely rich traditions, both grammatical and poetic.  It is quite important, I believe, to study these traditions.  They are often radically different from Sanskrit (Tamil).  And even when the Sanskrit traditions are tapped, as in the Malayalam L?l?tilakam, there are significant differences.  Sanskrit studies have suffered in the past by neglecting the other languages and traditions of South Asia, in my opinion.  George 


On Jul 5, 2014, at 4:04 PM, Andrey Klebanov <andra.kleb at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear members of the list,
> 
> I would like to kindly draw your attention to the two-week "Intensive Course on Indian Grammar and Poetics" to be taught by Dr. SLP Anjaneya Sarma (EFEO Pondicherry) at the University of Hamburg on September 15th to 26th (2014).
> 
> You can find the complete description of the course as well as the online registration form (the application is now open) on the site of the department for Indian and Tibetan Studies here:
> http://www.aai.uni-hamburg.de/indtib/icigp2014.html
> 
> In case you are teaching at an institution, please, circulate this information among your students.
> 
> with best wishes and apologies for cross-posting,
> Andrey Klebanov
> 
> sent from my iPad
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info



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From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Tue Jul  8 16:48:05 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 14 09:48:05 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <D1C8D3F2-AEC2-4F9E-BA53-2CB09A41B440@mail.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN-8SA4NGYzVmuXqyybLM6aKc_BgNEJdAEvBkDKDwvhqGw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dr Aklujkar,

Cognisant as I am of your expertise, I must respectfully disagree. In the
context of the Pratyabhij?? philosophy being expounded by Abhinavagupta
here, the idea is that the body mind etc., which are clearly objects of
awareness, lose their separate objectivity in this *tury? *state, becoming
expressions of awareness itself (*tad? bodha-svar?p?k**?ta?**
tad-ras?nuviddham eva ??ny?di-deh?ntam avabh?ti*, further on in the passage),
not separate from it. So this is not the *tury? *of other schools (=
*sam?dhi*), because a complete withdrawal from the objects of cognition is
here called *tury?t?ta*. In the *tury? *state under discussion, it is
specifically the objectivity of the objects of consciousness that falls
away, not their appearance within consciousness -- but he specifies that
the impressions (*sa.msk?ra*) of objectivity remain.

With regard to your second point, the *Rasa-ratna-samuccaya *(5.11)
citation (thank you for that!) I think shows that *vedha *can indeed mean
transmute; so what we have in the Abhinavagupta passage is three stages in
the process (in which the agent is *ahambh?va *or *sv?tantryar?pa-bodha*).
The first is denoted by *vidh-,  *permeate, infuse, but also transmute; the
second, *abhini+vi?*, immerse completely (now deh?di have become like
gold); the third, *j?r?a*, in which all trace of objectivity (the
*sa.msk?ra*s referred to above) are "worn away" or the gold is "digested"
by the mercury in the metaphor. (This is now *tury?t?ta-da??*). Thus the
mercury preparation (*siddha-rasa*) changes the base metal to gold, then
with prolonged exposure eats away that pure gold itself, since Abhinava
wants no trace of objectivity left in this process. A nice (if surprising)
metaphor, since the idea of pure gold triggers our *r?ga*, and therefore
must be dissolved, leaving only the dynamism of consciousness itself.

Torella (1994) supports my reading in his summary paraphrase of this
passage:
"The objective realities with which the I had identified himself are
themselves transformed on contact with the I . . . so that they continue to
subsist, but as though they have ceased to be objects; they are compared to
copper which on contact with mercury is transformed into gold. The state
beyond the fourth state, in which . . . the differentiation is now
completely dissolved, the idant? dispelled; remaining within the terms of
the simile suggested by Abh., even the gold into which the various levels
of subjectivity have been transformed - from the body to the void - as it
is increasingly permeated by the mercury wears away and finally dissolves,
these realities only surviving in the residual form of samsk?ra."  but
later he seemingly changed his understanding of the passage, writing "This
experience, which corresponds to the
fourth state, can be extended further, until it flows into the state beyond
the fourth, where the components of limitation, including *sa.msk?ra*, are
totally dissolved and incorporated in the I."

This last confusion hinges on the interpretation of the phrase *sa
drutarasa iva ?bh?ti kevala? tat-sa?sk?ra?.*
I am taking *tat-sa.msk?ra *to refer to the sole impression of awakened
consciousness itself (*drutarasa = cidrasa*).

very best,
CW


On 7 July 2014 21:34, Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com> wrote:

> The understanding of the passage that is being proposed is largely on the
> right track, especially with the contribution of Dominik.However, I should
> draw attention to two points that may lead to a different understanding of
> the chemical/alchemical process.
>
> 1. Literally, the translation of *yena prameyatv?t tat cyavata iva*
> should be
> "whereby that (thing ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta) slips down/falls away, as it
> were, from being an object of cognition" (i.e., it ceases to be -- no
> longer figures in -- cognition, although it is out there as before),"
> not
> "by which their objectivity falls away as it were".
> Note that the subject of *cyavate* is *ta*t,  a neuter gender word, and
> *prameyatv?t* is an ablative. *??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta* is a bahu-vriihi
> and, therefore, something like 'thing', 'entity', 'assemblage' must be
> understood as its vi;se.sya.
> Now, one can say that the earlier translation may be grammatically opaque
> but it essentially conveys the same thing as the translation I have
> offered. However, as you will see from the next point, the literal
> translation assists us in understanding the analogy rightly.
>
> 2. In *pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o
> ?tyanta? kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate,* one would expect pure
> consciousness to be similar to pure gold. It would be inappropriate to
> compare it with what is left after gold is taken out. The process conveyed
> by *j?r?a?* should, therefore, be one in which impurities of gold are
> taken out as a result of its saturation by something (there is no word in
> the passage that would suggest that we should set aside the usual meanings
> of *vidhyate*, *viddha *and *abhinivi.s.ta* ranging from 'pierce' to
> 'permeate').
>
> That that 'something' is paarada 'mercury' is what we learn from
> Rasa-ratna-samuccaya 5.11: ????? ???????? -- ????-????? ?????? ????????.
>
> Note that here gold is spoken of as the outcome, not anything else that
> goes with gold.
>
> The same Rasa-ratna-samuccaya, at 5.21-22, speaks of ??????? ????? ??????
> ????-???? ?? ?????, which 'liquidity' notion is also found in the
> Abhinava-gupta passage under consideration.
>
> (I give the Rasa-ratna-samuccaya references according to the ??????????
> ?????? ??????? ?????????? ???????, p. 1628, of ???????????????? ???? and
> ?????? ??? ????, ?????? : ?????????? ????? ??????? ??? ???????? ????, ????.
> I do not have access at the moment to the Rasa-ratna-samuccaya itself).
> a.a.
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Tue Jul  8 18:43:02 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 14 20:43:02 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN-8SA4NGYzVmuXqyybLM6aKc_BgNEJdAEvBkDKDwvhqGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcNHRCfzcPySBoGycYoOd0H0nrwTz9THFWUOxozL-ao1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Some months back, my wife Dagmar found this wonderful video of mercury
"eating" gold <http://youtu.be/gKxCw889qck>. Perhaps it will help with
understanding some of Abhinava's metaphors?

Incidentally, there's a new book on Indian alchemy by Andrew Mason,
Rasashastra
<http://www.amazon.com/Rasa-Shastra-Hidden-Medical-Alchemy/dp/1848191073>
(2014).   It's distinguishing feature is that Mason has spent a great deal
of time experimenting and trying things out, with guidance from alchemy and
ayurveda practitioners in Sri Lanka and elsewhere.  The book contains many
photos and recipes, chemical analyses, and sections on medical astrology
and gemstones.  Recommended, if you are interested in rasa??stra.

Dominik





On 8 July 2014 18:48, Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Dr Aklujkar,
>
> Cognisant as I am of your expertise, I must respectfully disagree. In the
> context of the Pratyabhij?? philosophy being expounded by Abhinavagupta
> here, the idea is that the body mind etc., which are clearly objects of
> awareness, lose their separate objectivity in this *tury? *state,
> becoming expressions of awareness itself (*tad? bodha-svar?p?k**?ta?**
> tad-ras?nuviddham eva ??ny?di-deh?ntam avabh?ti*, further on in the
> passage), not separate from it. So this is not the *tury? *of other
> schools (= *sam?dhi*), because a complete withdrawal from the objects of
> cognition is here called *tury?t?ta*. In the *tury? *state under
> discussion, it is specifically the objectivity of the objects of
> consciousness that falls away, not their appearance within consciousness --
> but he specifies that the impressions (*sa.msk?ra*) of objectivity remain.
>
> With regard to your second point, the *Rasa-ratna-samuccaya *(5.11)
> citation (thank you for that!) I think shows that *vedha *can indeed mean
> transmute; so what we have in the Abhinavagupta passage is three stages in
> the process (in which the agent is *ahambh?va *or *sv?tantryar?pa-bodha*).
> The first is denoted by *vidh-,  *permeate, infuse, but also transmute;
> the second, *abhini+vi?*, immerse completely (now deh?di have become like
> gold); the third, *j?r?a*, in which all trace of objectivity (the
> *sa.msk?ra*s referred to above) are "worn away" or the gold is "digested"
> by the mercury in the metaphor. (This is now *tury?t?ta-da??*). Thus the
> mercury preparation (*siddha-rasa*) changes the base metal to gold, then
> with prolonged exposure eats away that pure gold itself, since Abhinava
> wants no trace of objectivity left in this process. A nice (if surprising)
> metaphor, since the idea of pure gold triggers our *r?ga*, and therefore
> must be dissolved, leaving only the dynamism of consciousness itself.
>
> Torella (1994) supports my reading in his summary paraphrase of this
> passage:
> "The objective realities with which the I had identified himself are
> themselves transformed on contact with the I . . . so that they continue to
> subsist, but as though they have ceased to be objects; they are compared to
> copper which on contact with mercury is transformed into gold. The state
> beyond the fourth state, in which . . . the differentiation is now
> completely dissolved, the idant? dispelled; remaining within the terms of
> the simile suggested by Abh., even the gold into which the various levels
> of subjectivity have been transformed - from the body to the void - as it
> is increasingly permeated by the mercury wears away and finally dissolves,
> these realities only surviving in the residual form of samsk?ra."  but
> later he seemingly changed his understanding of the passage, writing "This
> experience, which corresponds to the
> fourth state, can be extended further, until it flows into the state
> beyond the fourth, where the components of limitation, including
> *sa.msk?ra*, are totally dissolved and incorporated in the I."
>
> This last confusion hinges on the interpretation of the phrase *sa
> drutarasa iva ?bh?ti kevala? tat-sa?sk?ra?.*
>  I am taking *tat-sa.msk?ra *to refer to the sole impression of awakened
> consciousness itself (*drutarasa = cidrasa*).
>
> very best,
> CW
>
>
> On 7 July 2014 21:34, Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The understanding of the passage that is being proposed is largely on the
>> right track, especially with the contribution of Dominik.However, I should
>> draw attention to two points that may lead to a different understanding of
>> the chemical/alchemical process.
>>
>> 1. Literally, the translation of *yena prameyatv?t tat cyavata iva*
>> should be
>> "whereby that (thing ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta) slips down/falls away, as
>> it were, from being an object of cognition" (i.e., it ceases to be -- no
>> longer figures in -- cognition, although it is out there as before),"
>>  not
>> "by which their objectivity falls away as it were".
>> Note that the subject of *cyavate* is *ta*t,  a neuter gender word, and
>> *prameyatv?t* is an ablative. *??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta* is a bahu-vriihi
>> and, therefore, something like 'thing', 'entity', 'assemblage' must be
>> understood as its vi;se.sya.
>>  Now, one can say that the earlier translation may be grammatically
>> opaque but it essentially conveys the same thing as the translation I have
>> offered. However, as you will see from the next point, the literal
>> translation assists us in understanding the analogy rightly.
>>
>> 2. In *pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o
>> ?tyanta? kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate,* one would expect pure
>> consciousness to be similar to pure gold. It would be inappropriate to
>> compare it with what is left after gold is taken out. The process conveyed
>> by *j?r?a?* should, therefore, be one in which impurities of gold are
>> taken out as a result of its saturation by something (there is no word in
>> the passage that would suggest that we should set aside the usual meanings
>> of *vidhyate*, *viddha *and *abhinivi.s.ta* ranging from 'pierce' to
>> 'permeate').
>>
>> That that 'something' is paarada 'mercury' is what we learn from
>> Rasa-ratna-samuccaya 5.11: ????? ???????? -- ????-????? ?????? ????????.
>>
>> Note that here gold is spoken of as the outcome, not anything else that
>> goes with gold.
>>
>> The same Rasa-ratna-samuccaya, at 5.21-22, speaks of ??????? ????? ??????
>> ????-???? ?? ?????, which 'liquidity' notion is also found in the
>> Abhinava-gupta passage under consideration.
>>
>> (I give the Rasa-ratna-samuccaya references according to the ??????????
>> ?????? ??????? ?????????? ???????, p. 1628, of ???????????????? ???? and
>> ?????? ??? ????, ?????? : ?????????? ????? ??????? ??? ???????? ????, ????.
>> I do not have access at the moment to the Rasa-ratna-samuccaya itself).
>>  a.a.
>>
>
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Tue Jul  8 21:06:41 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 14 23:06:41 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Bhaskaracharya's 900th Birth Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <D82573B33BE80A468149FB5DDAC4FEE241CFB238@SRV113.busymouse.de>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cef=2nrhyrRtK_DjgDKr30LR6s3voVAc7JM=MXJku8ZRA@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: S.R.Sarma <SR at sarma.de>
Date: 6 July 2014 21:45
Subject: Bhaskaracharya's 900th Birth Anniversary
To:


 Dear all,



Bhaskaracharya, the eminent Indian astronomer and mathematician, will be
900 years old in this year 2014.   My esteemed friend Dr V. V. Bedekar,
Chairman, Vidya Prasarak Mandal, Thane (http://www.vpmthane.org/), has
planned yearlong activities to celebrates Bhaskaracharya?s 900th birth
anniversary.   Throughout the year, a number of workshops are planned in
the various educational institutions run by the Vidya Prasarak Mandal and
also in other institutions a number of workshops to acquaint the students
and teachers about Bhaskaracarya and his works, and also about other Indian
astronomers and mathematicians.   Dr. Sudhakar C Agarkar, Professor and
Dean, VPM's Academy of International Education and Research and a noted
educationist, has conducted so far 20 workshops on the *Lilavati *in
different parts of India.



In addition to these outreach activities, an International Conference is
planned on 19-21 September 2014 at Thane, near Mumbai.   Professor Michio
Yano of Kyoto-Sangyo University and I are helping Dr Bedekar in preparing
the academic programme of the Conference. Almost all the notable scholars
working on Sanskrit mathematics and astronomy have agreed to participate in
the conference.



Please visit the website of the conference at
http://www.vpmthane.org/bhaskara900/  and read, in particular, the details
of the workshops in the section ?Outreach Programme? and the abstracts of
the papers to be read at the Conference.



The logo of the conference *vibhudh?bhinanditapado  jayati
?r?-Bh?skar?c?rya? *is from the inscription set up by Bhaskaracharya?s
grandson Cangadeva, announcing the establishment of  an institution to
promote the study of his grandfather?s works.  With *vibhudha *meaning
?god? as well as ?scholar? and *pada *denoting ?foot? and also ?word?, the
logo yields several layers of meanings, a feature which would have pleased
Bhaskaracharya himself.



Warm greetings,



S. R. Sarma



Hoehenstrasse 28

40227 Duesseldorf

Germany

WWW.SRSarma.in


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From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Wed Jul  9 01:33:46 2014
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 14 18:33:46 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN-8SA4NGYzVmuXqyybLM6aKc_BgNEJdAEvBkDKDwvhqGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <940D5975-7081-4CA3-A3CC-4633470CEEA8@gmail.com>

Dear Christopher,

The issue we are discussing needs a philological solution. What you have done in your most recent post is to make a philosophical argument, and a comparative-philosophical argument at that (basing yourself on where Abhinava or his school differs from other Indian philosophers or their schools). 

You write: "vedha can indeed mean transmute ... The first is denoted by vidh-,  permeate, infuse, but also transmute": 

We need at least one passage, preferably in a similar context, in which it can be shown that it will not suffice to take vedha and other derivates of vidh/vyadh in the sense 'pierce, penetrate' etc. or 'infuse, permeate' etc. -- that we will be forced to associate the sense 'transmute, transform, alter, change' etc. Passages speaking of 'transmuting' as an outcome or a stage coming after vedha do not establish that vedha itself has acquired the meaning 'transmuting'. 

You write: "the second, abhini+vi?, immerse completely (now deh?di have become like gold) ..." 

Here again, why we must/should go beyond the well=attested meaning of abhi+ni-vi;s, 'enter front and centre, establish oneself within, take hold, cling far' is not clear (cf. puurva.m hy apavaadaa abhinivi;sante, pa;scaad upasargaa.h in Pata;njali's Vyaakara.na-mahaabhaa.sya; the occurrences of abhinive;sa and abhinivi.s.ta in several texts). In some contexts one can perhaps extend these meanings to 'to be committed to, to be biased, to have one's mind made up,' but extending it to 'to immerse' seems too great a stretch. Note also that if that were the meaning, a locative would have taken the place of the instrumental sa.mvid-rasena.  

Even if you succeed in overcoming the preceding philological difficulties, you will have to contend with the opposing evidence I have cited in which pure gold is clearly spoken of as the outcome and as becoming liquid as it were. 

Clarification: I do not deny that there are passages which speak of disappearance of gold in mercury (perhaps in other substances as well). The question is whether they match the details in: 
yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman? ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??; 
yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o ?tyanta? kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti kevala? tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati. 

(Your earlier translation preserved here just for my reference: "'But when the [layers of limited selfhood] from Void to the physical body are penetrated by the ?alchemical elixir? that is the (true) I-sense?replete with the sovereignty of the qualities of eternality, all-pervasiveness, etc. which are cognized [as aspects of that I], by which their objectivity falls away as it were, then it is the Fourth State. 
When, further, these elements of pr??a, body, etc., penetrated by the elixir of Consciousness, are completely immersed [in it], they are ?matured? like the element of gold . . .'(?)"

Best wishes.

a.a.



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From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Wed Jul  9 01:45:05 2014
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 14 18:45:05 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN-8SA4NGYzVmuXqyybLM6aKc_BgNEJdAEvBkDKDwvhqGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <946CD1F9-2252-4947-B989-1BE97C5AB628@gmail.com>

In my last message, pl correct the typos as shown below:

 "as an outcome or a stage coming after vedha" Add "as" before "stage".
"well=attested" Replace the equal sign with a hyphen.
"cling far" Change "far" to "fast". 

Thanks.

a.a.





From shrinsaha at gmail.com  Wed Jul  9 09:07:32 2014
From: shrinsaha at gmail.com (Niranjan Saha)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 14 14:37:32 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Obituary of Professor S. Revathy
Message-ID: <CAHuz+Cpe6W+29vJNcreSsTRd6bh_wgzQ20ToKp5Tg2eCApTDyg@mail.gmail.com>

 Dear All,

My heart-felt condolences to the bereaved family of the late Professor
S.Revathy and the lover of Sanskrit and Indian Philosophy as I've heard of
her demise yesterday only. I spoke to her the month before this happened.

Sincerely,

Niranjan, Kol 67

Features <http://www.thehindu.com/features/> ? Friday Review, The Hindu,
Chennai, Feb 20, 2014 <http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/>
chennai, February 20, 2014
 Updated: February 20, 2014 16:25 IST
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  [image: Dr. S. Revathy]
Special Arrangement Dr. S. Revathy
  TOPICS
 human interest <http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=1151>  people
<http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=1158>
  Sanskrit students of the late Prof. Dr. S. Revathy pay tribute to a
dedicated educator, scholar and researcher.

Educational institutions require keen teachers, especially in the study of
Sanskrit polemical works. The students of Sanskrit at the University of
Madras were fortunate to have witnessed a rare combination of scholarship
and flair for teaching in the late Professor Dr. S. Revathy (1959-2014),
who was noted for her in-depth knowledge of Advaita Vedanta and Navya-Nyaya.

Armed with a Bachelor's Degree in Sanskrit from Queen Mary's College,
Chennai, she completed her Masters Degree, M.Phil, and Ph.D from Madras
University. An outstanding student and research scholar, Dr. Revathi's
dream to popularise Sanskrit came true when she was appointed a lecturer in
the Sanskrit Department of the Madras University, wherein she served for 27
years - as lecturer from 1987 to 1995, as Reader from 1995 to 2003 and as
Professor of Sanskrit from 2003 onwards.

Hailing from a Vaishnavite family, she believed that religion and
philosophy are twin branches of the same tree. In an illustrious teaching
career spanning over two decades, she had presented over 100 papers at
national and international seminars, published over 50 research articles,
four books and a monograph. Some of her well known, published titles
include ?Three Little Known Advaitins? (Doctoral Thesis), A critical
edition of Bhagavad Gita with commentary Padayojana by Ramachandendra, A
critical edition of Upadesa Sahasri of Sankaracarya with commentary
Padayojanika by Rama Tirtha, and a monograph titled, ?Manamala of
Acyutakrishnandatirtha.? She co-authored the text Vedanta Samgraha of
Ramaraya Kavi along with Professor Dr. R. Balasubramanian and this was
published in 2012. Her research articles covered some rare topics such as
Criticism of Buddhism by Mimamsaka, Review of Purvamimamsa doctrines by
Jayanta Bhatta.

She always remembered with humility, her guru, Professor Dr. N.
Veezhinathan, and followed in his footsteps as a committed teacher eager to
continue his legacy. She was sought after by other scholars to exchange or
present her views and knowledge, to review and evaluate research works in
the field of Nyaya, Advaita, music, dance, sculpture, philosophy, pure
language. Fluent in Sanskrit, English, Tamil and Telugu, and with a
Siromani degree in Advaita, under her able guidance, 17 students were
awarded Doctorate Degrees in Sanskrit.

A multi-talented person, she was ever willing to devote extra time to help
her students and took on the role of friend, philosopher and guide. The
number of Sanskrit books in her collection was a testimony to her thirst
for knowledge. She set high standards in learning and teaching, and
continued to delve deep into the language -thanks to the unwavering support
she received from her husband, Mr. Sukumar, and two sons.

Her outstanding contribution to Sanskrit research and teaching was
recognised through the 'Ram Krishna Sanskrit Award' in 2002 from Saraswati
Visvas, Canada, followed by 'Krishna Tatacharya Endowment Award' in 2003,
Bangalore. Nominated by the Ministry of Human Resources Development,
Government of India, she attended the 14th World Sanskrit Conference at
Kyoto University, Japan in 2009. In 2010, she received the 'Certificate of
Appreciation' for exemplary contribution to society and preserving India?s
cultural and spiritual heritage from Sringeri Jagadguru Sri Sri Bharati
Theertha Mahaswamigal Sacred 60th Birth Year Celebrations Committee,
Chennai. The University of Madras awarded her the 'Academic Achievement'
award in 2012.

The sudden and untimely demise of Dr. S. Revathy on February 5, is a great
loss to scholars of Sanskrit and scores of students, who had the
opportunity to listen to her deep, resonating voice expounding the
subtleties of Advaita and Nyaya philosophy. Her admirers and well wishers
will always remember her as one whose every breath spelt Sanskrit.

Keywords: Prof. Dr. S. Revathy
<http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/a-teacher-par-excellence/article5709488.ece#>
, sanskrit
<http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/a-teacher-par-excellence/article5709488.ece#>


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Wed Jul  9 09:26:09 2014
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 14 09:26:09 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <946CD1F9-2252-4947-B989-1BE97C5AB628@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED03746924A@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

Dear Ashok,

While I share your reservations in regard to the possible semantic transformations (for want of a better term) of vedh-/vyadh-, I do agree with Christopher that, in some instances, a strict adherence to the lexically established meanings is not sufficient. It was for this reason that I point to Bodhicary?vat?ra 1.10 and its gloss by Praj??karamati. This discussion has caused me to look carefully again at the latter and its Tibetan translation, which prove more revealing than I had first recalled. To begin, here is the whole of the verse in question:

a?ucipratim?? im?? g?h?tv?
jinaratnapratim?? karoty anargh??/
rasaj?tam at?va vedhan?ya?
sud??ha? g?h?ata bodhicittasa?j?am//

Here is a slavishly literal translation:

Having taken hold of this impure image [i.e. body],
It [= the bodhicitta] makes the priceless buddha-jewel-image.
Rasaj?ta [the alchemical agent] is exceedingly vedh-able.
Grasp most firmly the so-called bodhicitta.

Now, it is clear enough what the verse is telling us: just as the rasaj?ta turns a base substance into gold, so the bodhicitta turns this impure human body into the a buddha-body. 

But our question is: how, literally, is vedh- being used here. It doesn?t seem to make very good sense to insist on the strict, literal meaning: ?rasaj?ta is exceeding pierceable? or something like that. If we take the extended meaning ?to infuse,? I think we can get a bit closer to what?s meant: ?rasaj?ta is exceedingly infusable.? But this works only if we understand by this ?apt to infuse? and not ?apt to be infused,? although the latter might be what we?d expect if we insist on the most literal reading. Now, I take it that Praj??karamati is indicating something like this when he says: kartari an?ya? kara?e v? (though, knowing your unsurpassed insight into grammatical usage, I?d be more interested in your view of this than my own). Praj??karamati does have a bit more to say about this. Here?s his entire gloss on  ?rasaj?tam at?va vedhan?ya??:

ata eva rasaj?ta? rasaprak?ram/ atyuccavedhak?ritv?d at?va vedhan?yam/ kartari an?ya? kara?e v?

So there is no doubt but that he is interpreting vedh- causatively here: ras?j?ta is that which ibrings about infusion in the object subject to alchemical transformation.

The Tibetan translation paraphrases all of this. The third line of the verse is rendered:
gser sgyur rtsi yi rnam pa mchog lta bu, ?like the finest type of gold-transformation-essence.?
In the commentary, it drops ?kartari an?ya? kara?e v?? altogether and reads (for : atyuccavedhak?ritv?d at?va vedhan?yam)  ?shin tu cher sgyur bar byed pa?i phyir mchog tu sgyur ba?o?. 
?It is the finest transformer because it causes very great transformation.?

And, lest we think that the Tibetans are just off on their own here, the work was translated in collaboration with an Indian pa??ita, Sumatik?rti, and the colophon even lists the chapters in which he was considered particularly competent, including the first in which this passage occurs.

Conclusion: the semanic drift from ?to pierce? to ?to transform? has at least some precedent.

I have a vague recollection, by the way, of discussing this with David Pingree back in the 80s, and he pointed me to an old, but interesting monograph on Indian chemistry (not alchemy) that had some interesting things to say about vedh-. I?ll try to locate the reference, but no doubt others on this list will be more familiar with the literature in this area.

All best,
Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago




From ajit.gargeshwari at gmail.com  Wed Jul  9 11:35:30 2014
From: ajit.gargeshwari at gmail.com (Ajit Gargeshwari)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 14 17:05:30 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lilavati of Bhaskaracary with Vasana
Message-ID: <CALaEiei2XR-gdaTyZxsLpyZWqk+4rGrByj-enLVQ8PUp+o2Nhw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

I have with me Lilavati of Bhaskaracary with Vasana of Damodara Mishra,
Edited by Dayanatha Jha Published by Mithila Institute. In this books page
10-16 are missing. If some one can please help me with these missing pages
I would be very grateful. Thanks
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
? ????? ??????? ?? ??????????? ?????? ????? ?? ? ?????
??? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ? ?????? ???????? ???????2.20??


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From clemency.montelle at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Jul  9 12:22:58 2014
From: clemency.montelle at canterbury.ac.nz (Clemency Montelle)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 14 12:22:58 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lilavati of Bhaskaracary with Vasana
In-Reply-To: <CALaEiei2XR-gdaTyZxsLpyZWqk+4rGrByj-enLVQ8PUp+o2Nhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <373FE003EA3D2949BCC16219C67CBBF74F19F945@UCEXMBX04-I.canterbury.ac.nz>

Dear Ajit,

I don't have a copy of that exact edition, but this might be a good opportunity to highlight to this list an amazing collection of downloadable works (some very rare, old, and/or out of print) of Bhaskara II, that the organising team of the Bhaskara 900 international conference at Thane have compiled.  You can view them at:

http://www.vpmthane.org/bhaskara900/books.html

Many thanks to whomever was responsible for this!

With best wishes,
Clemency

----
Dr Clemency Montelle
http://www.math.canterbury.ac.nz/~c.montelle/
School of Mathematics and Statistics
University of Canterbury | Te Whare Wananga o Waitaha
Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140
NEW ZEALAND
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Ajit Gargeshwari [ajit.gargeshwari at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 9 July 2014 11:35 p.m.
To: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lilavati of Bhaskaracary with Vasana

Dear List,

I have with me Lilavati of Bhaskaracary with Vasana of Damodara Mishra, Edited by Dayanatha Jha Published by Mithila Institute. In this books page 10-16 are missing. If some one can please help me with these missing pages I would be very grateful. Thanks
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
? ????? ??????? ?? ??????????? ?????? ????? ?? ? ?????
??? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ? ?????? ???????? ???????2.20??


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Jul  9 12:36:17 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 14 14:36:17 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cc6PuMpQsHA87Pm38FD2KhJVUYKoZO1wTk5_JZzUi=N3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CdYKO6B_Fn_uHz9qqU-hY_R59T3Fd+tFO2VU_yX-hLqmg@mail.gmail.com>

Trying to firm up the idea that vedh- means convert, transmute, or (for the
philosophers among us, perhaps) transubstantiate.

The *Rasaratnasamuccaya* is a kind of late-ish nibandha text that brings
together, organizes and medicalizes the earlier, more tantric alchemical
literature.  Meulenbeld argues that it is datable to the sixteenth century
(HIML IIA 670).  Earliest dated MS: 1699 CE.  This text is not bad as a
representative of the developed ("classical"?) rasa??stra tradition; one
would expect less standardization of vocab. in earlier texts.

At *Rasaratnasamuccaya* 8.94-95
<http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:165.indologica>
there is a definition of ?abdavedha.
from blowing of iron, with mercury in the mouth, there is the creation of
goldenness and silverness. That is known as Word-vedha.
and the commentator makes it even more explicity that this is
transmutation, using pari-?am.  *Rasaratnasamuccayabodhin?* on 8.95
<http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:166.indologica>:
... *tat lauhakha??a? svar??dir?pe?a pari?atam//*
that bit of iron is converted into the form of gold etc.

... yatra vedhe svar??dir?pe?a pari?amet sa ?abdavedha ityartha?//
Word-vedha is where it converts with the form of gold etc. ...

The operation being described here is not unclear.  The alchemist puts a
piece of mercury in his mouth and blows on a piece of iron.  It becomes
golden or silvery.  This "becoming" is "vedha."

The *Bodhin?* authors were ??ubodha and Nityabodha (hence the witty title),
the sons of J?v?nanda Vidy?s?gara Bha??ac?rya, and the *Bodhin?* was
published in Calcutta in 1927.  So it's arguable that their interpretation
was influenced by 19th-20th century thought.  However, their commentary is
very ??stric and elaborate (note the P??inian grammatical parsing, "dhama
dh?vane ityasm?t lyu?" (>P.1.3.134 and pac?di ?k?tiga?a).  And as
Meulenbeld points out, they cite an exceptionally wide range of earlier
rasa??stra texts (HIML IIA 671-2).  Their interpretations are based on a
close reading of classical rasa??stra literature.  At the very least, one
can say that their view represents the understanding of learned panditas in
turn of the century Calcutta, that vedha meant pari??ma, or transmutation.

Best,
Dominik


Dominik






On 9 July 2014 12:27, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> On 9 July 2014 11:26, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> I have a vague recollection, by the way, of discussing this with David
>> Pingree back in the 80s, and he pointed me to an old, but interesting
>> monograph on Indian chemistry (not alchemy) that had some interesting
>> things to say about vedh-. I?ll try to locate the reference, but no doubt
>> others on this list will be more familiar with the literature in this area.
>>
>
> ?I imagine David was thinking of P. C. Ray's *History of Hindu
> Chemistry? * (link
> <https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3iamb3e84kp2o2k/AADzPHJXs8rxHNgRsINzLVH9a>)
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>


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From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Wed Jul  9 18:35:31 2014
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 14 20:35:31 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vedic family recitation traditions
Message-ID: <CAKA8X42GeamGm_EieKLyLpAUREapRgg_PPuWa6kcZO+g42b+tw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues

Might someone point me to the most current descriptions (and earlier ones)
of the surviving family lineages of Vedic recitation practice in India?

Cheers
James

-- 
James Hartzell, PhD
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
The University of Trento, Italy


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From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  9 19:09:26 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 14 12:09:26 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CdYKO6B_Fn_uHz9qqU-hY_R59T3Fd+tFO2VU_yX-hLqmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN-DW_EtUSH4j0Q8=GzJAnpw8UAZMzwXjZuO=8PeYx5hQQ@mail.gmail.com>

This is a rather wonderful discussion!  Thanks to all for adding evidence.
The video Dominik posted seems very important insofar as our authors were
in touch with reality, which I like to think they were. Taking account as
best I can of what everyone has said, and the physical evidence, here is my
new translation of the passage. Comments most welcome.

*yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
But when [all the layers of limited selfhood] from the Void to the tissues
of the body are penetrated by the ?alchemical elixir? that is the [true]
I-sense?replete with the sovereignty in which the qualities of eternality,
all-pervasiveness, etc. are cognized [as aspects of that ?I?]?through which
[penetration-cum-transmutation] their objectivity falls away as it were,
then that is [called] the Fourth State.
*yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??adeh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o ?tyanta?
kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti kevala?
tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati*
When, further, these elements of *pr?**?a*, body, etc., penetrated by the
elixir of Consciousness, are thoroughly permeated [by it], they are [then]
?digested? like the element of gold [is by mercury], by which the
?liquified essence? [of consciousness], their purifier, alone appears ?
then too it becomes the state Beyond the Fourth.



On 9 July 2014 05:36, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

> Trying to firm up the idea that vedh- means convert, transmute, or (for
> the philosophers among us, perhaps) transubstantiate.
>
> The *Rasaratnasamuccaya* is a kind of late-ish nibandha text that brings
> together, organizes and medicalizes the earlier, more tantric alchemical
> literature.  Meulenbeld argues that it is datable to the sixteenth century
> (HIML IIA 670).  Earliest dated MS: 1699 CE.  This text is not bad as a
> representative of the developed ("classical"?) rasa??stra tradition; one
> would expect less standardization of vocab. in earlier texts.
>
> At *Rasaratnasamuccaya* 8.94-95
> <http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:165.indologica>
> there is a definition of ?abdavedha.
> from blowing of iron, with mercury in the mouth, there is the creation of
> goldenness and silverness. That is known as Word-vedha.
> and the commentator makes it even more explicity that this is
> transmutation, using pari-?am.  *Rasaratnasamuccayabodhin?* on 8.95
> <http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:166.indologica>:
> ... *tat lauhakha??a? svar??dir?pe?a pari?atam//*
> that bit of iron is converted into the form of gold etc.
>
> ... yatra vedhe svar??dir?pe?a pari?amet sa ?abdavedha ityartha?//
> Word-vedha is where it converts with the form of gold etc. ...
>
> The operation being described here is not unclear.  The alchemist puts a
> piece of mercury in his mouth and blows on a piece of iron.  It becomes
> golden or silvery.  This "becoming" is "vedha."
>
> The *Bodhin?* authors were ??ubodha and Nityabodha (hence the witty
> title), the sons of J?v?nanda Vidy?s?gara Bha??ac?rya, and the *Bodhin?*
> was published in Calcutta in 1927.  So it's arguable that their
> interpretation was influenced by 19th-20th century thought.  However, their
> commentary is very ??stric and elaborate (note the P??inian grammatical
> parsing, "dhama dh?vane ityasm?t lyu?" (>P.1.3.134 and pac?di ?k?tiga?a).
> And as Meulenbeld points out, they cite an exceptionally wide range of
> earlier rasa??stra texts (HIML IIA 671-2).  Their interpretations are based
> on a close reading of classical rasa??stra literature.  At the very least,
> one can say that their view represents the understanding of learned
> panditas in turn of the century Calcutta, that vedha meant pari??ma, or
> transmutation.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
> Dominik
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9 July 2014 12:27, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9 July 2014 11:26, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I have a vague recollection, by the way, of discussing this with David
>>> Pingree back in the 80s, and he pointed me to an old, but interesting
>>> monograph on Indian chemistry (not alchemy) that had some interesting
>>> things to say about vedh-. I?ll try to locate the reference, but no doubt
>>> others on this list will be more familiar with the literature in this area.
>>>
>>
>> ?I imagine David was thinking of P. C. Ray's *History of Hindu
>> Chemistry? * (link
>> <https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3iamb3e84kp2o2k/AADzPHJXs8rxHNgRsINzLVH9a>)
>>
>> Best,
>> Dominik
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  9 22:23:27 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 14 15:23:27 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN-DW_EtUSH4j0Q8=GzJAnpw8UAZMzwXjZuO=8PeYx5hQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN9FKEvmMye5FGqHv5YCdhNDP=SYPeA-X_iqBnmkmCwp1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Having looked at White's book The Alchemical Body, I can report that he
frequently takes *vedha *in the sense of "transmute" and
"transubstantiate". Of course, he is not a Sanskritist but an historian of
religion.  Dominik, is it true that vedha is often listed as the
seventeenth samsk?ra after the 16 rasa-sa?sk?ras, and is seen as their
fruit?  For such he claims in that book.

best, CW



On 9 July 2014 12:09, Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> This is a rather wonderful discussion!  Thanks to all for adding evidence.
> The video Dominik posted seems very important insofar as our authors were
> in touch with reality, which I like to think they were. Taking account as
> best I can of what everyone has said, and the physical evidence, here is my
> new translation of the passage. Comments most welcome.
>
> *yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
> ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
> tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
> But when [all the layers of limited selfhood] from the Void to the tissues
> of the body are penetrated by the ?alchemical elixir? that is the [true]
> I-sense?replete with the sovereignty in which the qualities of eternality,
> all-pervasiveness, etc. are cognized [as aspects of that ?I?]?through which
> [penetration-cum-transmutation] their objectivity falls away as it were,
> then that is [called] the Fourth State.
> *yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??adeh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o ?tyanta?
> kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti kevala?
> tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati*
> When, further, these elements of *pr?**?a*, body, etc., penetrated by the
> elixir of Consciousness, are thoroughly permeated [by it], they are [then]
> ?digested? like the element of gold [is by mercury], by which the
> ?liquified essence? [of consciousness], their purifier, alone appears ?
> then too it becomes the state Beyond the Fourth.
>
>
>
> On 9 July 2014 05:36, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Trying to firm up the idea that vedh- means convert, transmute, or (for
>> the philosophers among us, perhaps) transubstantiate.
>>
>> The *Rasaratnasamuccaya* is a kind of late-ish nibandha text that brings
>> together, organizes and medicalizes the earlier, more tantric alchemical
>> literature.  Meulenbeld argues that it is datable to the sixteenth century
>> (HIML IIA 670).  Earliest dated MS: 1699 CE.  This text is not bad as a
>> representative of the developed ("classical"?) rasa??stra tradition; one
>> would expect less standardization of vocab. in earlier texts.
>>
>> At *Rasaratnasamuccaya* 8.94-95
>> <http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:165.indologica>
>> there is a definition of ?abdavedha.
>> from blowing of iron, with mercury in the mouth, there is the creation of
>> goldenness and silverness. That is known as Word-vedha.
>> and the commentator makes it even more explicity that this is
>> transmutation, using pari-?am.  *Rasaratnasamuccayabodhin?* on 8.95
>> <http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:166.indologica>:
>> ... *tat lauhakha??a? svar??dir?pe?a pari?atam//*
>> that bit of iron is converted into the form of gold etc.
>>
>> ... yatra vedhe svar??dir?pe?a pari?amet sa ?abdavedha ityartha?//
>> Word-vedha is where it converts with the form of gold etc. ...
>>
>> The operation being described here is not unclear.  The alchemist puts a
>> piece of mercury in his mouth and blows on a piece of iron.  It becomes
>> golden or silvery.  This "becoming" is "vedha."
>>
>> The *Bodhin?* authors were ??ubodha and Nityabodha (hence the witty
>> title), the sons of J?v?nanda Vidy?s?gara Bha??ac?rya, and the *Bodhin?*
>> was published in Calcutta in 1927.  So it's arguable that their
>> interpretation was influenced by 19th-20th century thought.  However, their
>> commentary is very ??stric and elaborate (note the P??inian grammatical
>> parsing, "dhama dh?vane ityasm?t lyu?" (>P.1.3.134 and pac?di ?k?tiga?a).
>> And as Meulenbeld points out, they cite an exceptionally wide range of
>> earlier rasa??stra texts (HIML IIA 671-2).  Their interpretations are based
>> on a close reading of classical rasa??stra literature.  At the very least,
>> one can say that their view represents the understanding of learned
>> panditas in turn of the century Calcutta, that vedha meant pari??ma, or
>> transmutation.
>>
>> Best,
>> Dominik
>>
>>
>> Dominik
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9 July 2014 12:27, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9 July 2014 11:26, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have a vague recollection, by the way, of discussing this with David
>>>> Pingree back in the 80s, and he pointed me to an old, but interesting
>>>> monograph on Indian chemistry (not alchemy) that had some interesting
>>>> things to say about vedh-. I?ll try to locate the reference, but no doubt
>>>> others on this list will be more familiar with the literature in this area.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ?I imagine David was thinking of P. C. Ray's *History of Hindu
>>> Chemistry? * (link
>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3iamb3e84kp2o2k/AADzPHJXs8rxHNgRsINzLVH9a>)
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Dominik
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Jul  9 22:47:53 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 00:47:53 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN9FKEvmMye5FGqHv5YCdhNDP=SYPeA-X_iqBnmkmCwp1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cd6jJiC2zBSdP-fY0UC_jpwbCghcK47xh-QXe4VdTUWRA@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know (without digging about, and I have no time just now).  But if
David says so, it's probably right.  He normally gives his sources.  What I
would say, though, is that the 16 sa?sk?ras are definitely the norm in the
classical picture, so a seventeenth sa?sk?ra is a bit like the seventh
cakra or the fifth veda, a late structural extension of a standard theory.
(Like Einstein to Newton and Schroedinger to Einstein :-)
D


On 10 July 2014 00:23, Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Having looked at White's book The Alchemical Body, I can report that he
> frequently takes *vedha *in the sense of "transmute" and
> "transubstantiate". Of course, he is not a Sanskritist but an historian of
> religion.  Dominik, is it true that vedha is often listed as the
> seventeenth samsk?ra after the 16 rasa-sa?sk?ras, and is seen as their
> fruit?  For such he claims in that book.
>
> best, CW
>
>
>
>
> On 9 July 2014 12:09, Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> This is a rather wonderful discussion!  Thanks to all for adding
>> evidence. The video Dominik posted seems very important insofar as our
>> authors were in touch with reality, which I like to think they were. Taking
>> account as best I can of what everyone has said, and the physical evidence,
>> here is my new translation of the passage. Comments most welcome.
>>
>> *yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
>> ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
>> tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
>> But when [all the layers of limited selfhood] from the Void to the
>> tissues of the body are penetrated by the ?alchemical elixir? that is
>> the [true] I-sense?replete with the sovereignty in which the qualities of
>> eternality, all-pervasiveness, etc. are cognized [as aspects of that
>> ?I?]?through which [penetration-cum-transmutation] their objectivity falls
>> away as it were, then that is [called] the Fourth State.
>> *yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??adeh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o ?tyanta?
>> kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti kevala?
>> tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati*
>> When, further, these elements of *pr?**?a*, body, etc., penetrated by
>> the elixir of Consciousness, are thoroughly permeated [by it], they are
>> [then] ?digested? like the element of gold [is by mercury], by which the
>> ?liquified essence? [of consciousness], their purifier, alone appears ?
>> then too it becomes the state Beyond the Fourth.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9 July 2014 05:36, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Trying to firm up the idea that vedh- means convert, transmute, or (for
>>> the philosophers among us, perhaps) transubstantiate.
>>>
>>> The *Rasaratnasamuccaya* is a kind of late-ish nibandha text that
>>> brings together, organizes and medicalizes the earlier, more tantric
>>> alchemical literature.  Meulenbeld argues that it is datable to the
>>> sixteenth century (HIML IIA 670).  Earliest dated MS: 1699 CE.  This text
>>> is not bad as a representative of the developed ("classical"?) rasa??stra
>>> tradition; one would expect less standardization of vocab. in earlier
>>> texts.
>>>
>>> At *Rasaratnasamuccaya* 8.94-95
>>> <http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:165.indologica>
>>> there is a definition of ?abdavedha.
>>> from blowing of iron, with mercury in the mouth, there is the creation
>>> of goldenness and silverness. That is known as Word-vedha.
>>> and the commentator makes it even more explicity that this is
>>> transmutation, using pari-?am.  *Rasaratnasamuccayabodhin?* on 8.95
>>> <http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:166.indologica>:
>>> ... *tat lauhakha??a? svar??dir?pe?a pari?atam//*
>>> that bit of iron is converted into the form of gold etc.
>>>
>>> ... yatra vedhe svar??dir?pe?a pari?amet sa ?abdavedha ityartha?//
>>> Word-vedha is where it converts with the form of gold etc. ...
>>>
>>> The operation being described here is not unclear.  The alchemist puts a
>>> piece of mercury in his mouth and blows on a piece of iron.  It becomes
>>> golden or silvery.  This "becoming" is "vedha."
>>>
>>> The *Bodhin?* authors were ??ubodha and Nityabodha (hence the witty
>>> title), the sons of J?v?nanda Vidy?s?gara Bha??ac?rya, and the *Bodhin?*
>>> was published in Calcutta in 1927.  So it's arguable that their
>>> interpretation was influenced by 19th-20th century thought.  However, their
>>> commentary is very ??stric and elaborate (note the P??inian grammatical
>>> parsing, "dhama dh?vane ityasm?t lyu?" (>P.1.3.134 and pac?di ?k?tiga?a).
>>> And as Meulenbeld points out, they cite an exceptionally wide range of
>>> earlier rasa??stra texts (HIML IIA 671-2).  Their interpretations are based
>>> on a close reading of classical rasa??stra literature.  At the very least,
>>> one can say that their view represents the understanding of learned
>>> panditas in turn of the century Calcutta, that vedha meant pari??ma, or
>>> transmutation.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Dominik
>>>
>>>
>>> Dominik
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9 July 2014 12:27, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9 July 2014 11:26, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I have a vague recollection, by the way, of discussing this with David
>>>>> Pingree back in the 80s, and he pointed me to an old, but interesting
>>>>> monograph on Indian chemistry (not alchemy) that had some interesting
>>>>> things to say about vedh-. I?ll try to locate the reference, but no doubt
>>>>> others on this list will be more familiar with the literature in this area.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ?I imagine David was thinking of P. C. Ray's *History of Hindu
>>>> Chemistry? * (link
>>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3iamb3e84kp2o2k/AADzPHJXs8rxHNgRsINzLVH9a>)
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Dominik
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>>
>>
>>
>


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From jataber at unm.edu  Thu Jul 10 06:22:05 2014
From: jataber at unm.edu (John Taber)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 06:22:05 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Obituary of Professor S. Revathy
In-Reply-To: <CAHuz+Cpe6W+29vJNcreSsTRd6bh_wgzQ20ToKp5Tg2eCApTDyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AFBAA684-5ECD-4AD5-BA80-27B5657C13BB@unm.edu>

Mr. Saha,
What a loss! I met Prof. Revathi, at that time ?Miss Revathy,? when I was a Fulbright scholar in Chennai in 1985. I was looking forward to reading with Prof. Veezhinathan but he was too busy. I was a little disappointed when he "handed me off," as I then thought, to his graduate student. How wrong I was! I learned more from her than most of the pandits I studied with that year put together. We read Vedantaparibhasa and Siddhantamuktavali. The depth of her knowledge and the precision of her explanations were awe-inspiring. It was from her that I learned that Indian logic matches Western logic in power, rigor, and clarity. She must have been summoned to some other world where she will converse with gods and continue her scholarly pursuits in the company of other Sanskrit luminaries. A spirit like hers could never be extinguished.
John Taber
Philosophy Department, University of New Mexico

On Jul 9, 2014, at 11:07 AM, Niranjan Saha <shrinsaha at gmail.com<mailto:shrinsaha at gmail.com>> wrote:



Dear All,

My heart-felt condolences to the bereaved family of the late Professor S.Revathy and the lover of Sanskrit and Indian Philosophy as I've heard of her demise yesterday only. I spoke to her the month before this happened.

Sincerely,

Niranjan, Kol 67

Features<http://www.thehindu.com/features/> ? Friday Review, The Hindu, Chennai, Feb 20, 2014<http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/>
chennai, February 20, 2014
Updated: February 20, 2014 16:25 IST
A Teacher Par Excellence
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[Dr. S. Revathy]
Special Arrangement Dr. S. Revathy
TOPICS
human interest<http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=1151>
people<http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=1158>
Sanskrit students of the late Prof. Dr. S. Revathy pay tribute to a dedicated educator, scholar and researcher.

Educational institutions require keen teachers, especially in the study of Sanskrit polemical works. The students of Sanskrit at the University of Madras were fortunate to have witnessed a rare combination of scholarship and flair for teaching in the late Professor Dr. S. Revathy (1959-2014), who was noted for her in-depth knowledge of Advaita Vedanta and Navya-Nyaya.

Armed with a Bachelor's Degree in Sanskrit from Queen Mary's College, Chennai, she completed her Masters Degree, M.Phil, and Ph.D from Madras University. An outstanding student and research scholar, Dr. Revathi's dream to popularise Sanskrit came true when she was appointed a lecturer in the Sanskrit Department of the Madras University, wherein she served for 27 years - as lecturer from 1987 to 1995, as Reader from 1995 to 2003 and as Professor of Sanskrit from 2003 onwards.

Hailing from a Vaishnavite family, she believed that religion and philosophy are twin branches of the same tree. In an illustrious teaching career spanning over two decades, she had presented over 100 papers at national and international seminars, published over 50 research articles, four books and a monograph. Some of her well known, published titles include ?Three Little Known Advaitins? (Doctoral Thesis), A critical edition of Bhagavad Gita with commentary Padayojana by Ramachandendra, A critical edition of Upadesa Sahasri of Sankaracarya with commentary Padayojanika by Rama Tirtha, and a monograph titled, ?Manamala of Acyutakrishnandatirtha.? She co-authored the text Vedanta Samgraha of Ramaraya Kavi along with Professor Dr. R. Balasubramanian and this was published in 2012. Her research articles covered some rare topics such as Criticism of Buddhism by Mimamsaka, Review of Purvamimamsa doctrines by Jayanta Bhatta.

She always remembered with humility, her guru, Professor Dr. N. Veezhinathan, and followed in his footsteps as a committed teacher eager to continue his legacy. She was sought after by other scholars to exchange or present her views and knowledge, to review and evaluate research works in the field of Nyaya, Advaita, music, dance, sculpture, philosophy, pure language. Fluent in Sanskrit, English, Tamil and Telugu, and with a Siromani degree in Advaita, under her able guidance, 17 students were awarded Doctorate Degrees in Sanskrit.

A multi-talented person, she was ever willing to devote extra time to help her students and took on the role of friend, philosopher and guide. The number of Sanskrit books in her collection was a testimony to her thirst for knowledge. She set high standards in learning and teaching, and continued to delve deep into the language -thanks to the unwavering support she received from her husband, Mr. Sukumar, and two sons.

Her outstanding contribution to Sanskrit research and teaching was recognised through the 'Ram Krishna Sanskrit Award' in 2002 from Saraswati Visvas, Canada, followed by 'Krishna Tatacharya Endowment Award' in 2003, Bangalore. Nominated by the Ministry of Human Resources Development, Government of India, she attended the 14th World Sanskrit Conference at Kyoto University, Japan in 2009. In 2010, she received the 'Certificate of Appreciation' for exemplary contribution to society and preserving India?s cultural and spiritual heritage from Sringeri Jagadguru Sri Sri Bharati Theertha Mahaswamigal Sacred 60th Birth Year Celebrations Committee, Chennai. The University of Madras awarded her the 'Academic Achievement' award in 2012.

The sudden and untimely demise of Dr. S. Revathy on February 5, is a great loss to scholars of Sanskrit and scores of students, who had the opportunity to listen to her deep, resonating voice expounding the subtleties of Advaita and Nyaya philosophy. Her admirers and well wishers will always remember her as one whose every breath spelt Sanskrit.

Keywords: Prof. Dr. S. Revathy<http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/a-teacher-par-excellence/article5709488.ece#>, sanskrit<http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/a-teacher-par-excellence/article5709488.ece#>

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From raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it  Thu Jul 10 09:45:44 2014
From: raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it (Raffaele Torella)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 11:45:44 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN-8SA4NGYzVmuXqyybLM6aKc_BgNEJdAEvBkDKDwvhqGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EB0A8F8E-BB56-40F7-B182-9613205D80D6@uniroma1.it>


Il giorno 08/lug/2014, alle ore 18:48, Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com> ha scritto:

> Dear Dr Aklujkar,
> 
> Cognisant as I am of your expertise, I must respectfully disagree. In the context of the Pratyabhij?? philosophy being expounded by Abhinavagupta here, the idea is that the body mind etc., which are clearly objects of awareness, lose their separate objectivity in this tury? state, becoming expressions of awareness itself (tad? bodha-svar?p?k?ta? tad-ras?nuviddham eva ??ny?di-deh?ntam avabh?ti, further on in the passage), not separate from it. So this is not the tury? of other schools (= sam?dhi), because a complete withdrawal from the objects of cognition is here called tury?t?ta. In the tury? state under discussion, it is specifically the objectivity of the objects of consciousness that falls away, not their appearance within consciousness -- but he specifies that the impressions (sa.msk?ra) of objectivity remain.
> 
> With regard to your second point, the Rasa-ratna-samuccaya (5.11) citation (thank you for that!) I think shows that vedha can indeed mean transmute; so what we have in the Abhinavagupta passage is three stages in the process (in which the agent is ahambh?va or sv?tantryar?pa-bodha). The first is denoted by vidh-,  permeate, infuse, but also transmute; the second, abhini+vi?, immerse completely (now deh?di have become like gold); the third, j?r?a, in which all trace of objectivity (the sa.msk?ras referred to above) are "worn away" or the gold is "digested" by the mercury in the metaphor. (This is now tury?t?ta-da??). Thus the mercury preparation (siddha-rasa) changes the base metal to gold, then with prolonged exposure eats away that pure gold itself, since Abhinava wants no trace of objectivity left in this process. A nice (if surprising) metaphor, since the idea of pure gold triggers our r?ga, and therefore must be dissolved, leaving only the dynamism of consciousness itself.
> 
> Torella (1994) supports my reading in his summary paraphrase of this passage: 
> "The objective realities with which the I had identified himself are themselves transformed on contact with the I . . . so that they continue to subsist, but as though they have ceased to be objects; they are compared to copper which on contact with mercury is transformed into gold. The state beyond the fourth state, in which . . . the differentiation is now completely dissolved, the idant? dispelled; remaining within the terms of the simile suggested by Abh., even the gold into which the various levels of subjectivity have been transformed - from the body to the void - as it is increasingly permeated by the mercury wears away and finally dissolves, these realities only surviving in the residual form of samsk?ra."  but later he seemingly changed his understanding of the passage, writing "This experience, which corresponds to the
> fourth state, can be extended further, until it flows into the state beyond the fourth, where the components of limitation, including sa.msk?ra, are totally dissolved and incorporated in the I."
> 
> This last confusion hinges on the interpretation of the phrase sa drutarasa iva ?bh?ti kevala? tat-sa?sk?ra?.
> I am taking tat-sa.msk?ra to refer to the sole impression of awakened consciousness itself (drutarasa = cidrasa).
> 
> very best,
> CW
> 

Dear Members,

just after an interminable car trip in Central Europe, I do not have the mental alertness to express my overall and detailed opinion on this very interesting matter. For the moment, at least, I can?t refrain from making some short remarks on the last point (and indirectly on my alleged ?confusion?). 

yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman? ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??; 
yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o ?tyanta? kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti kevala? tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati. 

drutarasa is clearly (at least to my mind) a bahuvr?hi depending on pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? . However fairly elliptical, also the following tatsa?sk?ra? also has to be taken as a bahuvr?hi, nuancing sa drutarasa iva ?bh?ti (of course, we would have been very grateful to Abh. for a more merciful tatsa?sk?rasahita?, or so?; also possibly to be understood as: ?only, the sa?sk?ras left by body, pr??a, etc. [for the moment still remains]). The key term is here kevalam, which introduces a restriction with the regards the previous statement (which also contains in itself the germ of a possible restriction: drutarasa *iva*.  Wallis? alternative interpretation ("the sole impression of awakened consciousness itself?) does not convince me: in these contexts sa?sk?ra? always refers to the residual traces left by ?inferior? realities on the way of their being progressively overcome or transfigured (see e.g. the somewhat parallel passage in IPVV III p. 348 tannijar?pasamyagviddhakanakar?pat?tyantajara??p?ditatatsa?sk?rava?ap?talat?va?e?avidrutarasany?yena).

I should like also to add that the tury?t?ta sam?ve?a, which this passage refers to, is not something intrinsically different from turya, but only its progressive extension, which virtually leads the complete elimination of the sa?sk?ras too. In saying ?virtually? I mean that for these authors this is in a sense an endless process. After all, if the process were indeed completed, how could sam?ve?a itself be possible? As Abhinava says (IPV on III.2.12) sam?ve?apallav? eva ca prasiddhadeh?dipram?t?bh?gaprahv?bh?vabh?van?nupr??it?? [?] dehap?te tu parame?vara evaikarasa? , ---- iti ka? kutra katha? sam?vi?et.
 
More (perhaps) to follow.

All best wishes to the members of this wonderful list
Raffaele Torella




Prof. Raffaele Torella
Chair of Sanskrit
Istituto Italiano di Studi Orientali
Sapienza Universit? di Roma
www.scribd.com/raffaeletorella







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From rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk  Thu Jul 10 10:46:16 2014
From: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk (Rohana Seneviratne)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 10:46:16 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Yas=CC=81odhara's_Jayaman=CC=87gala=CC=84_commentary_on_the_Ka=CC=84masu=CC=84tra?=
Message-ID: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B12148F@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>

Dear All,


I will be very much thankful if someone could kindly either send me or direct me to a PDF copy of Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra. The English and German translations of the Ka?masu?tra, already available as PDFs, do contain the Jayaman?gala? too but I am after the Sanskrit original. We do have a hard copy of it (Devadatta S?a?stri?'s edition published in 1964) at Oxford but I wonder if anybody has got a handy scanned version of it, by any chance.

Thank you very much in advance.

Best Wishes,
Rohana

------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/


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From rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk  Thu Jul 10 13:21:23 2014
From: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk (Rohana Seneviratne)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 13:21:23 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Yas=CC=81odhara's_Jayaman=CC=87gala=CC=84_commentary_on_the_Ka=CC=84masu=CC=84tra?=
In-Reply-To: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B12148F@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B121532@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>

Proving again how amazing this forum is, Andrew Ollett was very kind to send me an edition published in 1900, which I just a while ago put it on Archive.org for everybody's benefit.

https://archive.org/details/Kamasutra-Jayamangala-Commentary-1900

I would also like to thank Profs. McComas Taylor and Kenneth Zysk for their kindest support.


Best Wishes,
Rohana
------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/
________________________________
From: Rohana Seneviratne
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:46 AM
To: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra

Dear All,


I will be very much thankful if someone could kindly either send me or direct me to a PDF copy of Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra. The English and German translations of the Ka?masu?tra, already available as PDFs, do contain the Jayaman?gala? too but I am after the Sanskrit original. We do have a hard copy of it (Devadatta S?a?stri?'s edition published in 1964) at Oxford but I wonder if anybody has got a handy scanned version of it, by any chance.

Thank you very much in advance.

Best Wishes,
Rohana

------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/


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From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 14:17:22 2014
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 07:17:22 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED03746924A@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <841FF02B-CFCA-402C-85B4-AFE625CE4C2B@gmail.com>

Dear Matthew,

I agree with what you say as far as the difficulties involved in taking vedhaniiya as an optative/potential *passive* participle, meaning 'one to be pierced', are concerned. However, taking vidh/vyadh in the sense 'transform' is not the only solution for the difficulties. 

Recognizing that some derivates formed with aniiya can also have a case meaning other than karman, 'direct object', implicit in them also offers a way out. This is what Praj??kara-mati has done. He reads an agentive or instrumental case in the participial adjective. In this understanding, he has support of Paa.nini 3.3.113 (k.rtya-lyu.to;s ca bahulam). This A.s.taadhyaayii suutra recognizes usages like snaaniiya.m cuur.nam 'a powder that brings about bath -- that contributes to the realization of the act of bathing' and daaniiyo                   'A brahmin conducive to giving -- a brahmin who deserves a gift, who motivates people (through his noble conduct, learning, etc.) to give a gift'. (Obviously, the powder is not bathed, and a/the brahmin does not himself become a gift). Relying on such a recognized usages,  Praj??kara-mati advises his readers to take vedhaniiya in the sense 'one which pierces/penetrates' or 'one which is instrumental in the act of piercing/penetrating'. 

Accompanied by atiiva, a word meaning 'that which pierces/penetrates' can be rendered in the present context as 'infusing, permeating', but to take vedhaniiya beyond that sense we still do not have philological support. It can stand for something that leads to transforming but not for transforming itself. A factual follow-up does not necessarily lead to a semantic follow-up. Nor is a logically necessary development always reflected in the semantic extension of a word. 

I agree with you that the main proposition in the Bodhi-caryaavataara verse is "just as the rasaj?ta turns a base substance into gold, so the bodhi-citta turns this impure human body into the a buddha-body." I also agree with your surmise contained in: "?apt to infuse?...Praj??kara-mati is indicating something like this when he says: kartari an?ya? kara?e v?." What I question is the assertion in: " [Praj??kara-mati] is interpreting vedh- causatively here". 

Even if Praj??kara-mati is understood as you say, the rendering would be 'ras?j?ta is that which causes [X'} to peirce/penetrate/infuse'. Would that necessarily lead to 'ras?j?ta is that which transforms'? 

(Your sentence "ras?j?ta is that which brings about infusion ...", probably written to clarify the causativity aspect, does not contain any typical causativity-indicating words. If, for that reason, I understand you as not having technical-grammatical causativity in mind, then I can replace your sentence first with "ras?j?ta is that which causes infusion" and then with "ras?j?ta is that which makes/gives rise to infusion". But then your proposal for overcoming the difficulties will be the same as Praj??kara-mati's.)

Since I have to leave the study of Tibetan to my next life, I cannot comment on the literal meaning of the Tibetan trasnslation you have kindly cited, but I am tempted to ask, "Can the Tibetan not be understood in any way other than 'It is the finest transformer because it causes very great transformation'." Praj??kara-mati's use of vedha-kaaritvaat leaves no doubt that he takes the agent or instrument of the action denoted by vidh/vyadh as the implicit case relationship in  vedhaniiya. The translators, whether guided by Sumati-k?rti or not, are unlikely to have missed the usefulness of the learned hint dropped by  Praj??kara-mati. 

Although -kaarin can perhaps be related to the causal derivate kaar of k.r/kar, it does not have a causative sense of the grammatical-technical type 'one which makes/inspires/impels X to perform/undergo some action.'. See compounds ending in -kaarin in the reverse dictionary of W. Schwarz, p. 515.)

You write at the end: "I have a vague recollection, by the way, of discussing this with David Pingree back in the 80s, and he pointed me to an old, but interesting monograph on Indian chemistry (not alchemy) that had some interesting things to say about vedh-. I?ll try to locate the reference ..."

Was the book History of Hindu Chemistry  by Prafulla Chandra Ray? If it was, it is said to have been incorporated in: 
Ray, Priyadaranjan. 1956. History of Chemistry in Ancient and Medieval India, Calcutta: Indian Chemical Society. Other title: Chemistry in Ancient and Medieval India. 

Thanks and best wishes. 

ashok






From LubinT at wlu.edu  Thu Jul 10 14:57:27 2014
From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 14:57:27 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Yas=CC=81odhara's_Jayaman=CC=87gala=CC=84_commentary_on_the_Ka=CC=84masu=CC=84tra?=
Message-ID: <CFE4A78C.2CE0F%lubint@wlu.edu>

It is amusing that the edition was printed with this caveat on the title page: For Private Circulation Only.  ???????? ???????? ?
Being in Sanskrit isn't prophylaxis against titillation?  It is not even illustrated!
Well now that it's on Archive, it'll turn up on all the XXX sites.

Ti?

From: Rohana Seneviratne <rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk<mailto:rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk>>
Date: Thursday, July 10, 2014 7:06 PM
To: "indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>" <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra

Proving again how amazing this forum is, Andrew Ollett was very kind to send me an edition published in 1900, which I just a while ago put it on Archive.org for everybody's benefit.

https://archive.org/details/Kamasutra-Jayamangala-Commentary-1900

I would also like to thank Profs. McComas Taylor and Kenneth Zysk for their kindest support.


Best Wishes,
Rohana
------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk<mailto:rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk>
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/
________________________________
From: Rohana Seneviratne
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:46 AM
To: indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra

Dear All,


I will be very much thankful if someone could kindly either send me or direct me to a PDF copy of Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra. The English and German translations of the Ka?masu?tra, already available as PDFs, do contain the Jayaman?gala? too but I am after the Sanskrit original. We do have a hard copy of it (Devadatta S?a?stri?'s edition published in 1964) at Oxford but I wonder if anybody has got a handy scanned version of it, by any chance.

Thank you very much in advance.

Best Wishes,
Rohana

------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk<mailto:rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk>
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 16:16:35 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 18:16:35 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <841FF02B-CFCA-402C-85B4-AFE625CE4C2B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cf=-U=pf+5-qWw0qUEH9+Txheaq8BjisPOCT+99dr7TEg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 July 2014 16:17, Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Was the book History of Hindu Chemistry  by Prafulla Chandra Ray? If it
> was, it is said to have been incorporated in:
> Ray, Priyadaranjan. 1956. History of Chemistry in Ancient and Medieval
> India, Calcutta: Indian Chemical Society. Other title: Chemistry in Ancient
> and Medieval India.
>

?The 1956 reworking by Priyadaranjan Ray of Prafulla Chandra R?y's 1902
volumes is an interesting "moment" in the history of Indian science in the
immediate post-colonial period.  It is not a reprint of R?y's original
books, but a re-framing.  It was published by the Indian Chemical Society,
and valorizes the idea that rasa??stra was proto-chemistry.  As such, it
plays down, and almost completely omits, the t?ntrika materials to which PC
R?y gave balanced weight.

Further, R?y's own *History of Hindu Chemistry* evolved a lot between the
first and the second editions.  After the first edition, R?y discovered a
manuscript in the Raghunatha Temple collection that he felt was centrally
important, and his second edition places that newly-discovered work at the
centre of his account of alchemical history in India.  R?y explicitly
modelled his volumes on the works of Marcellin Berthelot
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcellin_Berthelot>, whom he corresponded
with (and met, if I remember correctly). So he had a genuinely historical
interest in alchemy-as-it-was, which I think Priyadaranjan Ray did not.

Best,
Dominik


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From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 16:17:08 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 09:17:08 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <EB0A8F8E-BB56-40F7-B182-9613205D80D6@uniroma1.it>
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN_YfErWNh9smiw6RtWi=V5KOBiCC58ZDhSv19FKOXiOTw@mail.gmail.com>

Let me immediately say that I apologize for inadvertently implying that Dr
Torella was confused on a particular point -- in fact the confusion was
mine, and not properly flagged as such.  I am very much aware that my
understanding of Pratyabhij?? materials lags *far* behind Dr. Torella's,
and I have the greatest respect for his work.

best, CW




On 10 July 2014 02:45, Raffaele Torella <raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it>
wrote:

>
> Il giorno 08/lug/2014, alle ore 18:48, Christopher Wallis <
> bhairava11 at gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
> Dear Dr Aklujkar,
>
> Cognisant as I am of your expertise, I must respectfully disagree. In the
> context of the Pratyabhij?? philosophy being expounded by Abhinavagupta
> here, the idea is that the body mind etc., which are clearly objects of
> awareness, lose their separate objectivity in this *tury? *state,
> becoming expressions of awareness itself (*tad? bodha-svar?p?k**?ta?**
> tad-ras?nuviddham eva ??ny?di-deh?ntam avabh?ti*, further on in the
> passage), not separate from it. So this is not the *tury? *of other
> schools (= *sam?dhi*), because a complete withdrawal from the objects of
> cognition is here called *tury?t?ta*. In the *tury? *state under
> discussion, it is specifically the objectivity of the objects of
> consciousness that falls away, not their appearance within consciousness --
> but he specifies that the impressions (*sa.msk?ra*) of objectivity remain.
>
> With regard to your second point, the *Rasa-ratna-samuccaya *(5.11)
> citation (thank you for that!) I think shows that *vedha *can indeed mean
> transmute; so what we have in the Abhinavagupta passage is three stages in
> the process (in which the agent is *ahambh?va *or *sv?tantryar?pa-bodha*).
> The first is denoted by *vidh-,  *permeate, infuse, but also transmute;
> the second, *abhini+vi?*, immerse completely (now deh?di have become like
> gold); the third, *j?r?a*, in which all trace of objectivity (the
> *sa.msk?ra*s referred to above) are "worn away" or the gold is "digested"
> by the mercury in the metaphor. (This is now *tury?t?ta-da??*). Thus the
> mercury preparation (*siddha-rasa*) changes the base metal to gold, then
> with prolonged exposure eats away that pure gold itself, since Abhinava
> wants no trace of objectivity left in this process. A nice (if surprising)
> metaphor, since the idea of pure gold triggers our *r?ga*, and therefore
> must be dissolved, leaving only the dynamism of consciousness itself.
>
> Torella (1994) supports my reading in his summary paraphrase of this
> passage:
> "The objective realities with which the I had identified himself are
> themselves transformed on contact with the I . . . so that they continue to
> subsist, but as though they have ceased to be objects; they are compared to
> copper which on contact with mercury is transformed into gold. The state
> beyond the fourth state, in which . . . the differentiation is now
> completely dissolved, the idant? dispelled; remaining within the terms of
> the simile suggested by Abh., even the gold into which the various levels
> of subjectivity have been transformed - from the body to the void - as it
> is increasingly permeated by the mercury wears away and finally dissolves,
> these realities only surviving in the residual form of samsk?ra."  but
> later he seemingly changed his understanding of the passage, writing "This
> experience, which corresponds to the
> fourth state, can be extended further, until it flows into the state
> beyond the fourth, where the components of limitation, including
> *sa.msk?ra*, are totally dissolved and incorporated in the I."
>
> This last confusion hinges on the interpretation of the phrase *sa
> drutarasa iva ?bh?ti kevala? tat-sa?sk?ra?.*
>  I am taking *tat-sa.msk?ra *to refer to the sole impression of awakened
> consciousness itself (*drutarasa = cidrasa*).
>
> very best,
> CW
>
>
> Dear Members,
>
> just after an interminable car trip in Central Europe, I do not have the
> mental alertness to express my overall and detailed opinion on this very
> interesting matter. For the moment, at least, I can?t refrain from making
> some short remarks on the last point (and indirectly on my alleged
> ?confusion?).
>
> *yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
> ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
> tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
> *yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o
> ?tyanta? kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti
> kevala? tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati. *
>
> *drutarasa* is clearly (at least to my mind) a *bahuvr?hi* depending on *pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu?
> . *However fairly elliptical, also the following *tatsa?sk?ra? *also has
> to be taken as a *bahuvr?hi*, nuancing *sa drutarasa iva ?bh?ti* (of
> course, we would have been very grateful to Abh. for a more merciful
> *tatsa?sk?rasahita?,* or so?; also possibly to be understood as: ?only,
> the *sa?sk?ras* left by body, pr??a, etc. [for the moment still
> remains]). The key term is here *kevalam*, which introduces a restriction
> with the regards the previous statement (which also contains in itself the
> germ of a possible restriction: *drutarasa *iva*. * Wallis? alternative
> interpretation ("the sole impression of awakened consciousness itself?)
> does not convince me: in these contexts *sa?sk?ra? *always refers to the
> residual traces left by ?inferior? realities on the way of their being
> progressively overcome or transfigured (see e.g. the somewhat parallel
> passage in IPVV III p. 348
> *tannijar?pasamyagviddhakanakar?pat?tyantajara??p?ditatatsa?sk?rava?ap?talat?va?e?avidrutarasany?yena).*
>
> I should like also to add that the *tury?t?ta sam?ve?a*, which this
> passage refers to, is not something intrinsically different from *turya*,
> but only its progressive extension, which virtually leads the
> complete elimination of the *sa?sk?ras* too. In saying ?virtually? I mean
> that for these authors this is in a sense an endless process. After all, if
> the process were indeed completed, how could *sam?ve?a* itself be
> possible? As Abhinava says (IPV on III.2.12) *sam?ve?apallav? eva ca
> prasiddhadeh?dipram?t?bh?gaprahv?bh?vabh?van?nupr??it?? [?] **dehap?te tu
> parame?vara evaikarasa? , ---- iti ka? kutra katha? sam?vi?et.*
>
> More (perhaps) to follow.
>
> All best wishes to the members of this wonderful list
> Raffaele Torella
>
>
>
>
> Prof. Raffaele Torella
> Chair of Sanskrit
> Istituto Italiano di Studi Orientali
> Sapienza Universit? di Roma
> www.scribd.com/raffaeletorella
>
>
>
>
>
>


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Thu Jul 10 16:23:06 2014
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 16:23:06 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <841FF02B-CFCA-402C-85B4-AFE625CE4C2B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0374694CB@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

Dear Ashok,

Thank you for your comments.

(1) I recognize that my use of "causative" was inexact and "agentive" would have been better.

(2) Can the Tibetan not be understood in any way other than 'It is the finest transformer because it causes very great transformation'." 
The short answer is "no." 'Sgyur' can also mean "to translate," but that makes no sense in this context.

best regards,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago





From fmgerety at fas.harvard.edu  Thu Jul 10 16:41:23 2014
From: fmgerety at fas.harvard.edu (Moore Gerety, Finnian)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 16:41:23 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 18, Issue 10
In-Reply-To: <mailman.57.1405008013.8177.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <F1FB5BC0484C5F4DA1920D2FDE9E7E41B024A500@HARVANDMBX01.fasmail.priv>

In reply to James Hartzell?s query on family traditions of Vedic recitation, I offer a short list of references pasted below, skewed towards my own interest in S?maveda and South Indian recitation. I?m actually in the initial stages of compiling an online bibliography on the topic of ?Vedic Oral Tradition,? and I would appreciate any additional references that our list-members could provide.

= = = = = = = = = = =
Finnian M. M. Gerety
Doctoral Candidate, Department of South Asian Studies
FSC-Harvard Fellow, Film Study Center
Harvard University

Apte, V.M. 1943. ?Sound Record of S?mag?nas: A Prospect and Retrospect.? Bulletin of the Deccan College Research Institute 4: 296-314.
Bake, A.A. 1935. ?The Practice of Sa?maveda.? In Proceedings and Transactions of the Seventh All-India Oriental Conference, Baroda, December 1933, 143- 155. Baroda: Oriental Institute.
Fujii, Masato. 2012. ?The Jaimin?ya S?maveda Traditions and Manuscripts in South India.? In Aspects of Manuscript Culture in Ancient India, edited by Saraju Rath, 99-118. Leiden: Brill.
Galewicz, Cezary. 2004. ?Katavallur Any?nyam: A Competition in Vedic Chanting?? In The Vedas: Texts, Language & Ritual : Proceedings of the Third International Vedic Workshop, Leiden 2002, edited by Arlo Griffiths & Jan E.M. Houben, 361-384. Groningen : Egbert Forsten.
???. 2005. ?L'Anyo?nyam: Un rituel de r?citation des textes sacr?s au Kerala.?Annales. Histoire, Sciences Sociales, 60e Ann?e 3: 551-571.
???. 2010. ?Inscribing scripture through ritual: on the ritual cycle of the Trisandh?.? In Grammars and Morphologies of Ritual Practices in Asia, edited by Axel Michaels et al., 117-140. Ritual Dynamics and the Science of Ritual 1. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag.
Gerety, Finnian M.M. Forthcoming. "Survivals & Revivals: The Transmission of Jaimin?ya S?maveda in Modern South India." In Vedic S??kh?s: Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic Workshop, Bucharest, edited by
Jan E.M. Houben, Julieta Rotaru and Michael Witzel.
Howard, Wayne. 1977. S?mavedic Chant. New Haven and London: Yale University Press.
???. 1983. ?The Music of Nambudiri Unexpressed Chant (aniruktag?na).? In Staal, Agni, 2: 311-342.
???. 1986. Veda recitation in V?r??as?. Delhi: Motilal Banassidass.
???. 2001.?Pr?c?na Kauthuma Traditions of South India: Letters from L.S. Rajagopalan, 1985-1988.? In Karttunen & Koskikallio, Vidy?r?avavandanam, 291-302.
Mahadevan, Thennilapuram. 2011.?The ?s?i index of the Vedic Anukraman?i? system and the Pravara lists: Toward a Pre-history of the Brahmans.? Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 118 (2). http://www.ejvs.laurasianacademy.com.
???. Forthcoming.?The Kau?i?taki School of the R?gveda: A Veda Cara?a Without a Sa?hita?.? In Vedic S??kh?s: Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic Workshop, Bucharest, edited by
Jan E.M. Houben, Julieta Rotaru and Michael Witzel.
Mahadevan, T.P. and Frits Staal. 2005. ?The Turning Point in a Living Tradition: Somay?gam 2003? In G?hler, Indische Kultur im Kontext, 365-389.
Parpola, Asko, 1973. ?The literature and study of the Jaimin?ya S?maveda in retrospect and prospect.? Studia Orientalia, 43 (6): 1-33.
???. 1984.?On the Jaimin?ya and V?dh?la Traditions of South India and the P???u/P???ava Problem.? Studia Orientalia 55: 429-468 (3-42).
Parpola, Marjatta. 2000. Kerala Brahmins in Transition: A Study of a Namp?tiri Family. Studia Orientalia 91. Helsinki: Finnish Oriental Society.
Raghavan, V. 1957. ?The present position of Vedic Chanting and its future.?Bulletin of the Institute of Traditional Cultures  (Madras University): 48-69.
???. 1962. The present position of Vedic Recitation and Vedic ??kh?s. Kumbakonam: Veda Dharma Paripalana Sabha.
Rajagopalan, L.S. 1989. ?Studies in S?ma Veda ? Some problems encountered.? P?r?atray?: Ravi Varma Sa?sk?ta Granth?val? Journal 16 (1): 7-10.
Rajagopalan, L.S. & Wayne Howard. 1989. ?A report on the pr?c?na Kauthuma S?maveda of Palghat.? Journal of the Indian Musicological Society 20 (1-2): 5-16.
Smith, Frederick M. 2001.?The recent history of vedic ritual in Maharashtra.? In Karttunen & Koskikallio, Vidy?r?avavandanam, 443-463.
Staal, J.F. 1958.?Notes on some Brahmin communities of South India.? Art and Letters, Journal of the Royal India Pakistan and Ceylon Society 32: 1-7.
???. 1961. Nambudiri Veda Recitation. Disputationes Rheno-Trajectinae 5. ?S-Gravenhage: Mouton & Co.
???. 1968. ?The Twelve Ritual Chants of the Nambudiri Agni??oma? In Pratid?nam: Indian, Iranian, and Indo-European studies presented to Franciscus Bernardus Jacobus Kuiper on his sixtieth birthday, edited by J.C. Heesterman et al., 409-429. The Hague, Paris: Mouton.
???. 1975. ?Some Vedic Survivals: Report on Research Done in India Dec. 1970-March 1971.? Journal of the Ganganatha Jha Kendriya Sanskrit Vidyapeetha 31: 167-180.
Staal, Frits. 1983. Agni: The Vedic Ritual of the Fire Altar. Two vols. Berkeley: Asian Humanities Press.





On 10-Jul-2014, at 12:00 pm, <indology-request at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-request at list.indology.info>> <indology-request at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-request at list.indology.info>> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

  1. Vedic family recitation traditions (James Hartzell)
  2. Re: Alchemy metaphor (Christopher Wallis)
  3. Re: Alchemy metaphor (Christopher Wallis)
  4. Re: Alchemy metaphor (Dominik Wujastyk)
  5. Re: Obituary of Professor S. Revathy (John Taber)
  6. Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra
     (Rohana Seneviratne)
  7. Re: Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra
     (Rohana Seneviratne)
  8. Re: Alchemy metaphor (Ashok Aklujkar)
  9. Re: Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra
     (Lubin, Tim)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 20:35:31 +0200
From: James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vedic family recitation traditions
Message-ID:
<CAKA8X42GeamGm_EieKLyLpAUREapRgg_PPuWa6kcZO+g42b+tw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear Colleagues

Might someone point me to the most current descriptions (and earlier ones)
of the surviving family lineages of Vedic recitation practice in India?

Cheers
James

--
James Hartzell, PhD
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
The University of Trento, Italy
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 12:09:26 -0700
From: Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com>
To: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
Message-ID:
<CAM3HWN-DW_EtUSH4j0Q8=GzJAnpw8UAZMzwXjZuO=8PeYx5hQQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

This is a rather wonderful discussion!  Thanks to all for adding evidence.
The video Dominik posted seems very important insofar as our authors were
in touch with reality, which I like to think they were. Taking account as
best I can of what everyone has said, and the physical evidence, here is my
new translation of the passage. Comments most welcome.

*yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
But when [all the layers of limited selfhood] from the Void to the tissues
of the body are penetrated by the ?alchemical elixir? that is the [true]
I-sense?replete with the sovereignty in which the qualities of eternality,
all-pervasiveness, etc. are cognized [as aspects of that ?I?]?through which
[penetration-cum-transmutation] their objectivity falls away as it were,
then that is [called] the Fourth State.
*yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??adeh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o ?tyanta?
kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti kevala?
tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati*
When, further, these elements of *pr?**?a*, body, etc., penetrated by the
elixir of Consciousness, are thoroughly permeated [by it], they are [then]
?digested? like the element of gold [is by mercury], by which the
?liquified essence? [of consciousness], their purifier, alone appears ?
then too it becomes the state Beyond the Fourth.



On 9 July 2014 05:36, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

Trying to firm up the idea that vedh- means convert, transmute, or (for
the philosophers among us, perhaps) transubstantiate.

The *Rasaratnasamuccaya* is a kind of late-ish nibandha text that brings
together, organizes and medicalizes the earlier, more tantric alchemical
literature.  Meulenbeld argues that it is datable to the sixteenth century
(HIML IIA 670).  Earliest dated MS: 1699 CE.  This text is not bad as a
representative of the developed ("classical"?) rasa??stra tradition; one
would expect less standardization of vocab. in earlier texts.

At *Rasaratnasamuccaya* 8.94-95
<http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:165.indologica>
there is a definition of ?abdavedha.
from blowing of iron, with mercury in the mouth, there is the creation of
goldenness and silverness. That is known as Word-vedha.
and the commentator makes it even more explicity that this is
transmutation, using pari-?am.  *Rasaratnasamuccayabodhin?* on 8.95
<http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:166.indologica>:
... *tat lauhakha??a? svar??dir?pe?a pari?atam//*
that bit of iron is converted into the form of gold etc.

... yatra vedhe svar??dir?pe?a pari?amet sa ?abdavedha ityartha?//
Word-vedha is where it converts with the form of gold etc. ...

The operation being described here is not unclear.  The alchemist puts a
piece of mercury in his mouth and blows on a piece of iron.  It becomes
golden or silvery.  This "becoming" is "vedha."

The *Bodhin?* authors were ??ubodha and Nityabodha (hence the witty
title), the sons of J?v?nanda Vidy?s?gara Bha??ac?rya, and the *Bodhin?*
was published in Calcutta in 1927.  So it's arguable that their
interpretation was influenced by 19th-20th century thought.  However, their
commentary is very ??stric and elaborate (note the P??inian grammatical
parsing, "dhama dh?vane ityasm?t lyu?" (>P.1.3.134 and pac?di ?k?tiga?a).
And as Meulenbeld points out, they cite an exceptionally wide range of
earlier rasa??stra texts (HIML IIA 671-2).  Their interpretations are based
on a close reading of classical rasa??stra literature.  At the very least,
one can say that their view represents the understanding of learned
panditas in turn of the century Calcutta, that vedha meant pari??ma, or
transmutation.

Best,
Dominik


Dominik






On 9 July 2014 12:27, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:




On 9 July 2014 11:26, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:


I have a vague recollection, by the way, of discussing this with David
Pingree back in the 80s, and he pointed me to an old, but interesting
monograph on Indian chemistry (not alchemy) that had some interesting
things to say about vedh-. I?ll try to locate the reference, but no doubt
others on this list will be more familiar with the literature in this area.


?I imagine David was thinking of P. C. Ray's *History of Hindu
Chemistry? * (link
<https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3iamb3e84kp2o2k/AADzPHJXs8rxHNgRsINzLVH9a>)

Best,
Dominik



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info

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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 15:23:27 -0700
From: Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com>
To: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
Message-ID:
<CAM3HWN9FKEvmMye5FGqHv5YCdhNDP=SYPeA-X_iqBnmkmCwp1Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Having looked at White's book The Alchemical Body, I can report that he
frequently takes *vedha *in the sense of "transmute" and
"transubstantiate". Of course, he is not a Sanskritist but an historian of
religion.  Dominik, is it true that vedha is often listed as the
seventeenth samsk?ra after the 16 rasa-sa?sk?ras, and is seen as their
fruit?  For such he claims in that book.

best, CW



On 9 July 2014 12:09, Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com> wrote:


This is a rather wonderful discussion!  Thanks to all for adding evidence.
The video Dominik posted seems very important insofar as our authors were
in touch with reality, which I like to think they were. Taking account as
best I can of what everyone has said, and the physical evidence, here is my
new translation of the passage. Comments most welcome.

*yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
But when [all the layers of limited selfhood] from the Void to the tissues
of the body are penetrated by the ?alchemical elixir? that is the [true]
I-sense?replete with the sovereignty in which the qualities of eternality,
all-pervasiveness, etc. are cognized [as aspects of that ?I?]?through which
[penetration-cum-transmutation] their objectivity falls away as it were,
then that is [called] the Fourth State.
*yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??adeh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o ?tyanta?
kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti kevala?
tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati*
When, further, these elements of *pr?**?a*, body, etc., penetrated by the
elixir of Consciousness, are thoroughly permeated [by it], they are [then]
?digested? like the element of gold [is by mercury], by which the
?liquified essence? [of consciousness], their purifier, alone appears ?
then too it becomes the state Beyond the Fourth.



On 9 July 2014 05:36, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

Trying to firm up the idea that vedh- means convert, transmute, or (for
the philosophers among us, perhaps) transubstantiate.

The *Rasaratnasamuccaya* is a kind of late-ish nibandha text that brings
together, organizes and medicalizes the earlier, more tantric alchemical
literature.  Meulenbeld argues that it is datable to the sixteenth century
(HIML IIA 670).  Earliest dated MS: 1699 CE.  This text is not bad as a
representative of the developed ("classical"?) rasa??stra tradition; one
would expect less standardization of vocab. in earlier texts.

At *Rasaratnasamuccaya* 8.94-95
<http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:165.indologica>
there is a definition of ?abdavedha.
from blowing of iron, with mercury in the mouth, there is the creation of
goldenness and silverness. That is known as Word-vedha.
and the commentator makes it even more explicity that this is
transmutation, using pari-?am.  *Rasaratnasamuccayabodhin?* on 8.95
<http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:166.indologica>:
... *tat lauhakha??a? svar??dir?pe?a pari?atam//*
that bit of iron is converted into the form of gold etc.

... yatra vedhe svar??dir?pe?a pari?amet sa ?abdavedha ityartha?//
Word-vedha is where it converts with the form of gold etc. ...

The operation being described here is not unclear.  The alchemist puts a
piece of mercury in his mouth and blows on a piece of iron.  It becomes
golden or silvery.  This "becoming" is "vedha."

The *Bodhin?* authors were ??ubodha and Nityabodha (hence the witty
title), the sons of J?v?nanda Vidy?s?gara Bha??ac?rya, and the *Bodhin?*
was published in Calcutta in 1927.  So it's arguable that their
interpretation was influenced by 19th-20th century thought.  However, their
commentary is very ??stric and elaborate (note the P??inian grammatical
parsing, "dhama dh?vane ityasm?t lyu?" (>P.1.3.134 and pac?di ?k?tiga?a).
And as Meulenbeld points out, they cite an exceptionally wide range of
earlier rasa??stra texts (HIML IIA 671-2).  Their interpretations are based
on a close reading of classical rasa??stra literature.  At the very least,
one can say that their view represents the understanding of learned
panditas in turn of the century Calcutta, that vedha meant pari??ma, or
transmutation.

Best,
Dominik


Dominik






On 9 July 2014 12:27, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:




On 9 July 2014 11:26, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:


I have a vague recollection, by the way, of discussing this with David
Pingree back in the 80s, and he pointed me to an old, but interesting
monograph on Indian chemistry (not alchemy) that had some interesting
things to say about vedh-. I?ll try to locate the reference, but no doubt
others on this list will be more familiar with the literature in this area.


?I imagine David was thinking of P. C. Ray's *History of Hindu
Chemistry? * (link
<https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3iamb3e84kp2o2k/AADzPHJXs8rxHNgRsINzLVH9a>)

Best,
Dominik



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info



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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 00:47:53 +0200
From: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
To: Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com>
Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
Message-ID:
<CAKdt-Cd6jJiC2zBSdP-fY0UC_jpwbCghcK47xh-QXe4VdTUWRA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I don't know (without digging about, and I have no time just now).  But if
David says so, it's probably right.  He normally gives his sources.  What I
would say, though, is that the 16 sa?sk?ras are definitely the norm in the
classical picture, so a seventeenth sa?sk?ra is a bit like the seventh
cakra or the fifth veda, a late structural extension of a standard theory.
(Like Einstein to Newton and Schroedinger to Einstein :-)
D


On 10 July 2014 00:23, Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com> wrote:

Having looked at White's book The Alchemical Body, I can report that he
frequently takes *vedha *in the sense of "transmute" and
"transubstantiate". Of course, he is not a Sanskritist but an historian of
religion.  Dominik, is it true that vedha is often listed as the
seventeenth samsk?ra after the 16 rasa-sa?sk?ras, and is seen as their
fruit?  For such he claims in that book.

best, CW




On 9 July 2014 12:09, Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com> wrote:


This is a rather wonderful discussion!  Thanks to all for adding
evidence. The video Dominik posted seems very important insofar as our
authors were in touch with reality, which I like to think they were. Taking
account as best I can of what everyone has said, and the physical evidence,
here is my new translation of the passage. Comments most welcome.

*yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
But when [all the layers of limited selfhood] from the Void to the
tissues of the body are penetrated by the ?alchemical elixir? that is
the [true] I-sense?replete with the sovereignty in which the qualities of
eternality, all-pervasiveness, etc. are cognized [as aspects of that
?I?]?through which [penetration-cum-transmutation] their objectivity falls
away as it were, then that is [called] the Fourth State.
*yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??adeh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o ?tyanta?
kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti kevala?
tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati*
When, further, these elements of *pr?**?a*, body, etc., penetrated by
the elixir of Consciousness, are thoroughly permeated [by it], they are
[then] ?digested? like the element of gold [is by mercury], by which the
?liquified essence? [of consciousness], their purifier, alone appears ?
then too it becomes the state Beyond the Fourth.



On 9 July 2014 05:36, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

Trying to firm up the idea that vedh- means convert, transmute, or (for
the philosophers among us, perhaps) transubstantiate.

The *Rasaratnasamuccaya* is a kind of late-ish nibandha text that
brings together, organizes and medicalizes the earlier, more tantric
alchemical literature.  Meulenbeld argues that it is datable to the
sixteenth century (HIML IIA 670).  Earliest dated MS: 1699 CE.  This text
is not bad as a representative of the developed ("classical"?) rasa??stra
tradition; one would expect less standardization of vocab. in earlier
texts.

At *Rasaratnasamuccaya* 8.94-95
<http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:165.indologica>
there is a definition of ?abdavedha.
from blowing of iron, with mercury in the mouth, there is the creation
of goldenness and silverness. That is known as Word-vedha.
and the commentator makes it even more explicity that this is
transmutation, using pari-?am.  *Rasaratnasamuccayabodhin?* on 8.95
<http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:166.indologica>:
... *tat lauhakha??a? svar??dir?pe?a pari?atam//*
that bit of iron is converted into the form of gold etc.

... yatra vedhe svar??dir?pe?a pari?amet sa ?abdavedha ityartha?//
Word-vedha is where it converts with the form of gold etc. ...

The operation being described here is not unclear.  The alchemist puts a
piece of mercury in his mouth and blows on a piece of iron.  It becomes
golden or silvery.  This "becoming" is "vedha."

The *Bodhin?* authors were ??ubodha and Nityabodha (hence the witty
title), the sons of J?v?nanda Vidy?s?gara Bha??ac?rya, and the *Bodhin?*
was published in Calcutta in 1927.  So it's arguable that their
interpretation was influenced by 19th-20th century thought.  However, their
commentary is very ??stric and elaborate (note the P??inian grammatical
parsing, "dhama dh?vane ityasm?t lyu?" (>P.1.3.134 and pac?di ?k?tiga?a).
And as Meulenbeld points out, they cite an exceptionally wide range of
earlier rasa??stra texts (HIML IIA 671-2).  Their interpretations are based
on a close reading of classical rasa??stra literature.  At the very least,
one can say that their view represents the understanding of learned
panditas in turn of the century Calcutta, that vedha meant pari??ma, or
transmutation.

Best,
Dominik


Dominik






On 9 July 2014 12:27, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:




On 9 July 2014 11:26, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:


I have a vague recollection, by the way, of discussing this with David
Pingree back in the 80s, and he pointed me to an old, but interesting
monograph on Indian chemistry (not alchemy) that had some interesting
things to say about vedh-. I?ll try to locate the reference, but no doubt
others on this list will be more familiar with the literature in this area.


?I imagine David was thinking of P. C. Ray's *History of Hindu
Chemistry? * (link
<https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3iamb3e84kp2o2k/AADzPHJXs8rxHNgRsINzLVH9a>)

Best,
Dominik



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info




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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 06:22:05 +0000
From: John Taber <jataber at unm.edu>
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Obituary of Professor S. Revathy
Message-ID: <AFBAA684-5ECD-4AD5-BA80-27B5657C13BB at unm.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Mr. Saha,
What a loss! I met Prof. Revathi, at that time ?Miss Revathy,? when I was a Fulbright scholar in Chennai in 1985. I was looking forward to reading with Prof. Veezhinathan but he was too busy. I was a little disappointed when he "handed me off," as I then thought, to his graduate student. How wrong I was! I learned more from her than most of the pandits I studied with that year put together. We read Vedantaparibhasa and Siddhantamuktavali. The depth of her knowledge and the precision of her explanations were awe-inspiring. It was from her that I learned that Indian logic matches Western logic in power, rigor, and clarity. She must have been summoned to some other world where she will converse with gods and continue her scholarly pursuits in the company of other Sanskrit luminaries. A spirit like hers could never be extinguished.
John Taber
Philosophy Department, University of New Mexico

On Jul 9, 2014, at 11:07 AM, Niranjan Saha <shrinsaha at gmail.com<mailto:shrinsaha at gmail.com>> wrote:



Dear All,

My heart-felt condolences to the bereaved family of the late Professor S.Revathy and the lover of Sanskrit and Indian Philosophy as I've heard of her demise yesterday only. I spoke to her the month before this happened.

Sincerely,

Niranjan, Kol 67

Features<http://www.thehindu.com/features/> ? Friday Review, The Hindu, Chennai, Feb 20, 2014<http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/>
chennai, February 20, 2014
Updated: February 20, 2014 16:25 IST
A Teacher Par Excellence
How to Get Book Published<http://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=Cn7hbztG7U9alLYbSuATyuICAAfb57-oExoW1t1TAjbcBEAEgvYO_E1DojtJ_YOWq6YPkDqABupLo2QPIAQGoAwGqBK0BT9DumlbHwJZH2xXGb6-gaPIz4LiMC1IGPhRzS1jfbIr4Ut1Sp9Vnug4DJLgcVZinV71Ub-JGr5FI_n9L3gcqzi2BIGaqhpEhn3s-c-GIysTXErrg5pdjZYa65A4NL0zCcBjX-DAN6iG5CswHxZ4NUUFaDxpN37jJ_vVpJefYBGoB88baGka5DEiGvEtGnY6beJrO_kN4A6i9xmcY4-2TDyi170-qzBk3Fjv8HGeIBgGAB67tlyY&num=1&cid=5GiTYUXCuBLylUWyUfDvLQeO&sig=AOD64_2Log5IG2DYd5NHdG0WrAiokt1bMA&client=ca-hindu_site_html&adurl=http://www.partridgepublishing.com/india/lp01f01c004.aspx%3FCat%3DPPC%26LS%3DSearchEngine%26SRC%3DGoogle%26KW%3DIndia%2BContent%2BPC%26GKW%3DHow%2BTo%2BPublish%26utm_source%3Dgoogle%26utm_medium%3Dcpc%26utm_campaign%3DIndia%2BContent%2BPC%26utm_content%3DHow%2BTo%2BPublish> - We?ll Show You How to Publish Your Book. Get a Free Publishing Guide! www.partridgepublishing.com/India<http://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=Cn7hbztG7U9alLYbSuATyuICAAfb57-oExoW
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[Dr. S. Revathy]
Special Arrangement Dr. S. Revathy
TOPICS
human interest<http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=1151>
people<http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=1158>
Sanskrit students of the late Prof. Dr. S. Revathy pay tribute to a dedicated educator, scholar and researcher.

Educational institutions require keen teachers, especially in the study of Sanskrit polemical works. The students of Sanskrit at the University of Madras were fortunate to have witnessed a rare combination of scholarship and flair for teaching in the late Professor Dr. S. Revathy (1959-2014), who was noted for her in-depth knowledge of Advaita Vedanta and Navya-Nyaya.

Armed with a Bachelor's Degree in Sanskrit from Queen Mary's College, Chennai, she completed her Masters Degree, M.Phil, and Ph.D from Madras University. An outstanding student and research scholar, Dr. Revathi's dream to popularise Sanskrit came true when she was appointed a lecturer in the Sanskrit Department of the Madras University, wherein she served for 27 years - as lecturer from 1987 to 1995, as Reader from 1995 to 2003 and as Professor of Sanskrit from 2003 onwards.

Hailing from a Vaishnavite family, she believed that religion and philosophy are twin branches of the same tree. In an illustrious teaching career spanning over two decades, she had presented over 100 papers at national and international seminars, published over 50 research articles, four books and a monograph. Some of her well known, published titles include ?Three Little Known Advaitins? (Doctoral Thesis), A critical edition of Bhagavad Gita with commentary Padayojana by Ramachandendra, A critical edition of Upadesa Sahasri of Sankaracarya with commentary Padayojanika by Rama Tirtha, and a monograph titled, ?Manamala of Acyutakrishnandatirtha.? She co-authored the text Vedanta Samgraha of Ramaraya Kavi along with Professor Dr. R. Balasubramanian and this was published in 2012. Her research articles covered some rare topics such as Criticism of Buddhism by Mimamsaka, Review of Purvamimamsa doctrines by Jayanta Bhatta.

She always remembered with humility, her guru, Professor Dr. N. Veezhinathan, and followed in his footsteps as a committed teacher eager to continue his legacy. She was sought after by other scholars to exchange or present her views and knowledge, to review and evaluate research works in the field of Nyaya, Advaita, music, dance, sculpture, philosophy, pure language. Fluent in Sanskrit, English, Tamil and Telugu, and with a Siromani degree in Advaita, under her able guidance, 17 students were awarded Doctorate Degrees in Sanskrit.

A multi-talented person, she was ever willing to devote extra time to help her students and took on the role of friend, philosopher and guide. The number of Sanskrit books in her collection was a testimony to her thirst for knowledge. She set high standards in learning and teaching, and continued to delve deep into the language -thanks to the unwavering support she received from her husband, Mr. Sukumar, and two sons.

Her outstanding contribution to Sanskrit research and teaching was recognised through the 'Ram Krishna Sanskrit Award' in 2002 from Saraswati Visvas, Canada, followed by 'Krishna Tatacharya Endowment Award' in 2003, Bangalore. Nominated by the Ministry of Human Resources Development, Government of India, she attended the 14th World Sanskrit Conference at Kyoto University, Japan in 2009. In 2010, she received the 'Certificate of Appreciation' for exemplary contribution to society and preserving India?s cultural and spiritual heritage from Sringeri Jagadguru Sri Sri Bharati Theertha Mahaswamigal Sacred 60th Birth Year Celebrations Committee, Chennai. The University of Madras awarded her the 'Academic Achievement' award in 2012.

The sudden and untimely demise of Dr. S. Revathy on February 5, is a great loss to scholars of Sanskrit and scores of students, who had the opportunity to listen to her deep, resonating voice expounding the subtleties of Advaita and Nyaya philosophy. Her admirers and well wishers will always remember her as one whose every breath spelt Sanskrit.

Keywords: Prof. Dr. S. Revathy<http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/a-teacher-par-excellence/article5709488.ece#>, sanskrit<http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/a-teacher-par-excellence/article5709488.ece#>

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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 10:46:16 +0000
From: Rohana Seneviratne <rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk>
To: "indology at list.indology.info" <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the
Ka?masu?tra
Message-ID:
<263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B12148F at MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear All,


I will be very much thankful if someone could kindly either send me or direct me to a PDF copy of Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra. The English and German translations of the Ka?masu?tra, already available as PDFs, do contain the Jayaman?gala? too but I am after the Sanskrit original. We do have a hard copy of it (Devadatta S?a?stri?'s edition published in 1964) at Oxford but I wonder if anybody has got a handy scanned version of it, by any chance.

Thank you very much in advance.

Best Wishes,
Rohana

------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 13:21:23 +0000
From: Rohana Seneviratne <rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk>
To: "indology at list.indology.info" <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the
Ka?masu?tra
Message-ID:
<263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B121532 at MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Proving again how amazing this forum is, Andrew Ollett was very kind to send me an edition published in 1900, which I just a while ago put it on Archive.org for everybody's benefit.

https://archive.org/details/Kamasutra-Jayamangala-Commentary-1900

I would also like to thank Profs. McComas Taylor and Kenneth Zysk for their kindest support.


Best Wishes,
Rohana
------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/
________________________________
From: Rohana Seneviratne
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:46 AM
To: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra

Dear All,


I will be very much thankful if someone could kindly either send me or direct me to a PDF copy of Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra. The English and German translations of the Ka?masu?tra, already available as PDFs, do contain the Jayaman?gala? too but I am after the Sanskrit original. We do have a hard copy of it (Devadatta S?a?stri?'s edition published in 1964) at Oxford but I wonder if anybody has got a handy scanned version of it, by any chance.

Thank you very much in advance.

Best Wishes,
Rohana

------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 07:17:22 -0700
From: Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com>
To: Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU>
Cc: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>, Indology List
<indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
Message-ID: <841FF02B-CFCA-402C-85B4-AFE625CE4C2B at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Dear Matthew,

I agree with what you say as far as the difficulties involved in taking vedhaniiya as an optative/potential *passive* participle, meaning 'one to be pierced', are concerned. However, taking vidh/vyadh in the sense 'transform' is not the only solution for the difficulties.

Recognizing that some derivates formed with aniiya can also have a case meaning other than karman, 'direct object', implicit in them also offers a way out. This is what Praj??kara-mati has done. He reads an agentive or instrumental case in the participial adjective. In this understanding, he has support of Paa.nini 3.3.113 (k.rtya-lyu.to;s ca bahulam). This A.s.taadhyaayii suutra recognizes usages like snaaniiya.m cuur.nam 'a powder that brings about bath -- that contributes to the realization of the act of bathing' and daaniiyo                   'A brahmin conducive to giving -- a brahmin who deserves a gift, who motivates people (through his noble conduct, learning, etc.) to give a gift'. (Obviously, the powder is not bathed, and a/the brahmin does not himself become a gift). Relying on such a recognized usages,  Praj??kara-mati advises his readers to take vedhaniiya in the sense 'one which pierces/penetrates' or 'one which is instrumental in the act of piercing/penetrating
'.

Accompanied by atiiva, a word meaning 'that which pierces/penetrates' can be rendered in the present context as 'infusing, permeating', but to take vedhaniiya beyond that sense we still do not have philological support. It can stand for something that leads to transforming but not for transforming itself. A factual follow-up does not necessarily lead to a semantic follow-up. Nor is a logically necessary development always reflected in the semantic extension of a word.

I agree with you that the main proposition in the Bodhi-caryaavataara verse is "just as the rasaj?ta turns a base substance into gold, so the bodhi-citta turns this impure human body into the a buddha-body." I also agree with your surmise contained in: "?apt to infuse?...Praj??kara-mati is indicating something like this when he says: kartari an?ya? kara?e v?." What I question is the assertion in: " [Praj??kara-mati] is interpreting vedh- causatively here".

Even if Praj??kara-mati is understood as you say, the rendering would be 'ras?j?ta is that which causes [X'} to peirce/penetrate/infuse'. Would that necessarily lead to 'ras?j?ta is that which transforms'?

(Your sentence "ras?j?ta is that which brings about infusion ...", probably written to clarify the causativity aspect, does not contain any typical causativity-indicating words. If, for that reason, I understand you as not having technical-grammatical causativity in mind, then I can replace your sentence first with "ras?j?ta is that which causes infusion" and then with "ras?j?ta is that which makes/gives rise to infusion". But then your proposal for overcoming the difficulties will be the same as Praj??kara-mati's.)

Since I have to leave the study of Tibetan to my next life, I cannot comment on the literal meaning of the Tibetan trasnslation you have kindly cited, but I am tempted to ask, "Can the Tibetan not be understood in any way other than 'It is the finest transformer because it causes very great transformation'." Praj??kara-mati's use of vedha-kaaritvaat leaves no doubt that he takes the agent or instrument of the action denoted by vidh/vyadh as the implicit case relationship in  vedhaniiya. The translators, whether guided by Sumati-k?rti or not, are unlikely to have missed the usefulness of the learned hint dropped by  Praj??kara-mati.

Although -kaarin can perhaps be related to the causal derivate kaar of k.r/kar, it does not have a causative sense of the grammatical-technical type 'one which makes/inspires/impels X to perform/undergo some action.'. See compounds ending in -kaarin in the reverse dictionary of W. Schwarz, p. 515.)

You write at the end: "I have a vague recollection, by the way, of discussing this with David Pingree back in the 80s, and he pointed me to an old, but interesting monograph on Indian chemistry (not alchemy) that had some interesting things to say about vedh-. I?ll try to locate the reference ..."

Was the book History of Hindu Chemistry  by Prafulla Chandra Ray? If it was, it is said to have been incorporated in:
Ray, Priyadaranjan. 1956. History of Chemistry in Ancient and Medieval India, Calcutta: Indian Chemical Society. Other title: Chemistry in Ancient and Medieval India.

Thanks and best wishes.

ashok




------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 14:57:27 +0000
From: "Lubin, Tim" <LubinT at wlu.edu>
To: "indology at list.indology.info" <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the
Ka?masu?tra
Message-ID: <CFE4A78C.2CE0F%lubint at wlu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

It is amusing that the edition was printed with this caveat on the title page: For Private Circulation Only.  ???????? ???????? ?
Being in Sanskrit isn't prophylaxis against titillation?  It is not even illustrated!
Well now that it's on Archive, it'll turn up on all the XXX sites.

Ti?

From: Rohana Seneviratne <rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk<mailto:rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk>>
Date: Thursday, July 10, 2014 7:06 PM
To: "indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>" <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra

Proving again how amazing this forum is, Andrew Ollett was very kind to send me an edition published in 1900, which I just a while ago put it on Archive.org for everybody's benefit.

https://archive.org/details/Kamasutra-Jayamangala-Commentary-1900

I would also like to thank Profs. McComas Taylor and Kenneth Zysk for their kindest support.


Best Wishes,
Rohana
------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk<mailto:rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk>
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/
________________________________
From: Rohana Seneviratne
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:46 AM
To: indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra

Dear All,


I will be very much thankful if someone could kindly either send me or direct me to a PDF copy of Yas?odhara's Jayaman?gala? commentary on the Ka?masu?tra. The English and German translations of the Ka?masu?tra, already available as PDFs, do contain the Jayaman?gala? too but I am after the Sanskrit original. We do have a hard copy of it (Devadatta S?a?stri?'s edition published in 1964) at Oxford but I wonder if anybody has got a handy scanned version of it, by any chance.

Thank you very much in advance.

Best Wishes,
Rohana

------------------------------------------------
Rohana Seneviratne
DPhil Student in Sanskrit
The Oriental Institute
Faculty of Oriental Studies
University of Oxford
Pusey Lane, Oxford
OX1 2LE
United Kingdom

Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk<mailto:rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk>
Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/
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Subject: Digest Footer

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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 16:51:26 2014
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 22:21:26 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vedic family recitation traditions
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ea07-_G13g-xrMV4PcVmfx_b0KxL9yDqc1abBjYDDnqcQ@mail.gmail.com>

I shall send some contacts which will be helpful in this regard.


Dr.RVSS Avadhanulu did a recording of several Vedic recitations. He has a
website:



 http://www.shrivedabharathi.in/dravadhanulu.html



Dr Vamshi Krishna Ghanapathi did his PhD on Vedic recitations



his email: vkghanapathi at gmail.com



Dr. Subroto Roy does research on Vedic recitation :



subrotor at gmail.com



Sri Vidyashankar Sundareshanji from Shringeri Math:



svidyasankar at gmail.com



Regards,



Nagaraj






-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de  Thu Jul 10 17:26:48 2014
From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 17:26:48 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #435
Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D949C30861F@UM-excdag-a02.um.gwdg.de>



GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection:


Apadana: PTS/Dhammakaya version, annotated and plain text:
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#Apadana


PLEASE NOTE:
The link to the related books in the GRETIL e-library will not be active before tomorrow morning.



__________________________________________________________________________

"GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement")

GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages:

http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm





From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 17:56:16 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 10:56:16 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <EB0A8F8E-BB56-40F7-B182-9613205D80D6@uniroma1.it>
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN8biB4Y37p1ZsmeERs72in5WcLNb8OKSEDocTv0TW+A7Q@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Prof. Torella for your clarification. One point of disagreement
here: you say "in these contexts *sa?sk?ra? *always refers to the residual
traces left by ?inferior? realities on the way of their being progressively
overcome", but we have a clear example to the contrary in K?emar?ja's P.H.
s?tra 19 and comm, where *sam?dhi-sa?sk?ra *clearly refers to a beneficial
and desirable *sa?sk?ra.* But that aside, I propose a different
reading of *tatsa?sk?ra?
*in the passage below, though not with full confidence. From everything we
have learned in this alchemical discussion (and following up the references
given), *drutarasa? *in the metaphor can only be the mercury, so here
*drutarasa?
*must analogically stand in for *cidrasa? *(or *prak??arasa?*), hence the
iva. As seen in real-life amalgamation, the *drutarasa?  *indeed *?bh?ti
kevalam *-- appears alone -- as a result of this process, having digested
the mercury. So Abh. is saying that *cidrasa? *is what remains, having
devoured *pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? *(cf. *j?r?a *here with *grasa,
ala?grasa *elsewhere
in the literature).  That leaves us with the difficulty involving
*tatsa?sk?ra?.
*Since Abh. did not write *tatsa?sk?rasahita? *but easily could have done,
I propose that he might be using *sa?sk?ra *here in its other primary sense
-- that is, the *drutarasa? *is the "purifier of that (*pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu?*)"
since that is exactly what mercury does. But I withdraw my guess that
*tatsa?sk?ra?
*meant "the impression of awakened consciousness itself" which Dr Torella
rightly called unconvincing.

But I think it cannot be true that *tatsa?sk?ra? *here means "the
*sa?sk?ras* left by body, pr??a, etc. [for the moment still remain]" as
Prof. Torella suggested, because the *tury?t?ta *here being discussed is
being contrasted to a previous *tury?t?ta *(there being two versions of
this attainment), about which it was said: *??ny?di-sa?sk?ro 'pi asti, *which
is unambiguous. How can there be a contrast if the *sa?sk?ra*s remain in
this second *tury?t?ta *as well?  (Unless I'm missing some other point of
contrast.) I take the point that if one becomes *ek?bh?tam sa.mvid-ghanam*
then there is no sam?ve?a possible, but I'm not clear that Abhinava
disallows this possibility of going beyond sam?ve?a.

best, CW


Dear Members,
>
> just after an interminable car trip in Central Europe, I do not have the
> mental alertness to express my overall and detailed opinion on this very
> interesting matter. For the moment, at least, I can?t refrain from making
> some short remarks on the last point (and indirectly on my alleged
> ?confusion?).
>
> *yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
> ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
> tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
> *yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o
> ?tyanta? kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti
> kevala? tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati. *
>
> *drutarasa* is clearly (at least to my mind) a *bahuvr?hi* depending on *pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu?
> . *However fairly elliptical, also the following *tatsa?sk?ra? *also has
> to be taken as a *bahuvr?hi*, nuancing *sa drutarasa iva ?bh?ti* (of
> course, we would have been very grateful to Abh. for a more merciful
> *tatsa?sk?rasahita?,* or so?; also possibly to be understood as: ?only,
> the *sa?sk?ras* left by body, pr??a, etc. [for the moment still
> remains]). The key term is here *kevalam*, which introduces a restriction
> with the regards the previous statement (which also contains in itself the
> germ of a possible restriction: *drutarasa *iva*. * Wallis? alternative
> interpretation ("the sole impression of awakened consciousness itself?)
> does not convince me: in these contexts *sa?sk?ra? *always refers to the
> residual traces left by ?inferior? realities on the way of their being
> progressively overcome or transfigured (see e.g. the somewhat parallel
> passage in IPVV III p. 348
> *tannijar?pasamyagviddhakanakar?pat?tyantajara??p?ditatatsa?sk?rava?ap?talat?va?e?avidrutarasany?yena).*
>
> I should like also to add that the *tury?t?ta sam?ve?a*, which this
> passage refers to, is not something intrinsically different from *turya*,
> but only its progressive extension, which virtually leads the
> complete elimination of the *sa?sk?ras* too. In saying ?virtually? I mean
> that for these authors this is in a sense an endless process. After all, if
> the process were indeed completed, how could *sam?ve?a* itself be
> possible? As Abhinava says (IPV on III.2.12) *sam?ve?apallav? eva ca
> prasiddhadeh?dipram?t?bh?gaprahv?bh?vabh?van?nupr??it?? [?] **dehap?te tu
> parame?vara evaikarasa? , ---- iti ka? kutra katha? sam?vi?et.*
>
> More (perhaps) to follow.
>
> All best wishes to the members of this wonderful list
> Raffaele Torella
>
>
>
>
> Prof. Raffaele Torella
> Chair of Sanskrit
> Istituto Italiano di Studi Orientali
> Sapienza Universit? di Roma
> www.scribd.com/raffaeletorella
>
>
>
>
>
>


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From gleb.sharygin at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 19:55:45 2014
From: gleb.sharygin at gmail.com (Gleb Sharygin)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 23:55:45 +0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Yas=CC=81odhara's_Jayaman=CC=87gala=CC=84_commentary_on_the_Ka=CC=84masu=CC=84tra?=
Message-ID: <CALPiqivY0Pat1gDrz+Un5uH6eAv5DiPx486j_onrqBzMytLF9w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Learned Community,

I wonder if someone could clarify whether the edition in consideration (of
1900th) is reliable and whether there are better editions of the text and
commentary?

With kind regards,
Gleb Sharygin


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From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 21:22:36 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 14 14:22:36 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <EB0A8F8E-BB56-40F7-B182-9613205D80D6@uniroma1.it>
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN-Hqeb8LHkc0hW9oVv7L5hNZFn1iL9mFbRYUW+UfVDQCQ@mail.gmail.com>

For those following the alchemy discussion, Prof. Torella offered this
important parallel passage (?Pvv III p. 348):

yad? v? sarvathaiva pradhva?sit? vidr?vit? v? bhavati tury?t?ta-da??y?? . .
.
tan-nija-r?pa-samyag-viddha-kanaka-r?pat?tyanta-jara??p?dita-tatsa?sk?rava?a-p?talat?va?e?a-vidruta-rasa-ny?yena


Which I think confirms what we have been saying about the alchemical
processes here. My first pass at a translation would be:

"or when [objectivity] is completely destroyed or liquified, i.e. in the
state Beyond the Fourth, after the manner of the liquid mercury that
remains after the gold leaf -- i.e. the power of the impression(s) of that
[objectivity]--has been thoroughly digested, its form having been [first]
well penetrated by the innate form of that [consciousness]".

I hope I am correct in taking *p?talat? *as "gold leaf". The sentences
immediately before this one establish that the penetration of (in this
case) copper by mercury extracts the gold (*rasa-viddhat?mra-kanaka-ny?yena*),
corresponding to the Fourth State in which objectivity is covered (*idant?
?cch?dit?*), only its impressions remaining.

I hope Prof. Torella and/or others will correct any mistakes here.

best, CW


On 10 July 2014 02:45, Raffaele Torella <raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it>
wrote:

>
> just after an interminable car trip in Central Europe, I do not have the
> mental alertness to express my overall and detailed opinion on this very
> interesting matter. For the moment, at least, I can?t refrain from making
> some short remarks on the last point (and indirectly on my alleged
> ?confusion?).
>
> *yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
> ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
> tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
> *yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o
> ?tyanta? kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti
> kevala? tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati. *
>
> *drutarasa* is clearly (at least to my mind) a *bahuvr?hi* depending on *pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu?
> . *However fairly elliptical, also the following *tatsa?sk?ra? *also has
> to be taken as a *bahuvr?hi*, nuancing *sa drutarasa iva ?bh?ti* (of
> course, we would have been very grateful to Abh. for a more merciful
> *tatsa?sk?rasahita?,* or so?; also possibly to be understood as: ?only,
> the *sa?sk?ras* left by body, pr??a, etc. [for the moment still
> remains]). The key term is here *kevalam*, which introduces a restriction
> with the regards the previous statement (which also contains in itself the
> germ of a possible restriction: *drutarasa *iva*. * Wallis? alternative
> interpretation ("the sole impression of awakened consciousness itself?)
> does not convince me: in these contexts *sa?sk?ra? *always refers to the
> residual traces left by ?inferior? realities on the way of their being
> progressively overcome or transfigured (see e.g. the somewhat parallel
> passage in IPVV III p. 348
> *tannijar?pasamyagviddhakanakar?pat?tyantajara??p?ditatatsa?sk?rava?ap?talat?va?e?avidrutarasany?yena).*
>
> I should like also to add that the *tury?t?ta sam?ve?a*, which this
> passage refers to, is not something intrinsically different from *turya*,
> but only its progressive extension, which virtually leads the
> complete elimination of the *sa?sk?ras* too. In saying ?virtually? I mean
> that for these authors this is in a sense an endless process. After all, if
> the process were indeed completed, how could *sam?ve?a* itself be
> possible? As Abhinava says (IPV on III.2.12) *sam?ve?apallav? eva ca
> prasiddhadeh?dipram?t?bh?gaprahv?bh?vabh?van?nupr??it?? [?] **dehap?te tu
> parame?vara evaikarasa? , ---- iti ka? kutra katha? sam?vi?et.*
>
> More (perhaps) to follow.
>
> All best wishes to the members of this wonderful list
> Raffaele Torella
>
>
>
>
> Prof. Raffaele Torella
> Chair of Sanskrit
> Istituto Italiano di Studi Orientali
> Sapienza Universit? di Roma
> www.scribd.com/raffaeletorella
>
>
>
>
>
>


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 11 03:45:47 2014
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (dhaval patel)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 14 09:15:47 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Yas=CC=81odhara's_Jayaman=CC=87gala=CC=84_commentary_on_the_Ka=CC=84masu=CC=84tra?=
In-Reply-To: <CALPiqivY0Pat1gDrz+Un5uH6eAv5DiPx486j_onrqBzMytLF9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADSGPzVRCdzD=PAnOCfpBEnjeqe_E_k8L7z9MA0jcWK4sA=r=A@mail.gmail.com>

I am not sure about the reliablility of the edition.
This edition doesn't have commentary on the seventh chapter i.e.
aupaniSadikam.
It was recently reprinted by Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthana - which has 7th
chapter commentary also.
But taking the fact that RSS chose this edition for reprint - it means that
this would have been one of the best available around.

As far as pictorial depiction is concerned, I read once in a Descriptibe
catalogue that Sarfoji library of Tanjavur has a book on kAmazAstra which
has pictorial depiction of all positions etc. Still I have not been able to
contact the library.


On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 1:25 AM, Gleb Sharygin <gleb.sharygin at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Learned Community,
>
> I wonder if someone could clarify whether the edition in consideration (of
> 1900th) is reliable and whether there are better editions of the text and
> commentary?
>
> With kind regards,
> Gleb Sharygin
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
District Development Officer, Rajkot
www.sanskritworld.in


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 11 03:48:43 2014
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (dhaval patel)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 14 09:18:43 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Yas=CC=81odhara's_Jayaman=CC=87gala=CC=84_commentary_on_the_Ka=CC=84masu=CC=84tra?=
In-Reply-To: <CADSGPzVRCdzD=PAnOCfpBEnjeqe_E_k8L7z9MA0jcWK4sA=r=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADSGPzXFka_f5wZEKBviwuZerJsyuzNW0Ar-6Be0yMUdR=yhWQ@mail.gmail.com>

Read manuscript instead of book for pictorial depiction


On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 9:15 AM, dhaval patel <drdhaval2785 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I am not sure about the reliablility of the edition.
> This edition doesn't have commentary on the seventh chapter i.e.
> aupaniSadikam.
> It was recently reprinted by Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthana - which has 7th
> chapter commentary also.
> But taking the fact that RSS chose this edition for reprint - it means
> that this would have been one of the best available around.
>
> As far as pictorial depiction is concerned, I read once in a Descriptibe
> catalogue that Sarfoji library of Tanjavur has a book on kAmazAstra which
> has pictorial depiction of all positions etc. Still I have not been able to
> contact the library.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 1:25 AM, Gleb Sharygin <gleb.sharygin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Learned Community,
>>
>> I wonder if someone could clarify whether the edition in consideration
>> (of 1900th) is reliable and whether there are better editions of the text
>> and commentary?
>>
>> With kind regards,
>> Gleb Sharygin
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
> District Development Officer, Rajkot
> www.sanskritworld.in
>



-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
District Development Officer, Rajkot
www.sanskritworld.in


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From gleb.sharygin at gmail.com  Fri Jul 11 09:00:34 2014
From: gleb.sharygin at gmail.com (Gleb Sharygin)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 14 13:00:34 +0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Yas=CC=81odhara's_Jayaman=CC=87gala=CC=84_commentary_on_the_Ka=CC=84masu=CC=84tra?=
Message-ID: <CALPiqitTj5d+JKJWtLP41CMv-HYnHA+jMhaPnDFtBOohgjntCw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Mr Cahill and Mr. Patel, thank you very much for the clarification and
valuable suggestions.

With kind regards,
Gleb Sharygin


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From shrimaitreya at gmail.com  Fri Jul 11 11:37:41 2014
From: shrimaitreya at gmail.com ((Maitreya) Borayin Larios)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 14 13:37:41 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vedic family recitation traditions
Message-ID: <CAPb4bMh5p_N3k0gXZ9JS4hEwyyeetvw60YGn+VFLG0089Hg14A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear James Hartzell and dear list members,

In addition to the great contributions from Finn, Nagaraj and others in the
list to the topic of Vedic recitation traditions, I would also like to draw
your attention to my own work dealing with contemporary Vedic recitation
and Vedic schools from the state of Maharashtra.

My dissertation entitled: "Embodying Sacred Sound. The transmission of
knowledge in traditional Vedic schools of contemporary Maharashtra" which
was submitted last year here at the Heidelberg University should be
published online later this year.

Some of my articles are also available for download on Academia.edu (
https://uni-heidelberg.academia.edu/BorayinLarios), and although they do
not all deal exclusively with Vedic recitation, they do deal with issues
that affect these traditions.

In addition, I would like to share a short film (about 15 min) that I
edited to illustrate a typical day in a Vedic school in Satara Maharashtra.
It is available on youtube through this link:

http://youtu.be/ALEHkgOx8EE

Some colleagues have found it a useful resource to teach in their
introductory classes on Hinduism. I hope that you will find it useful too.
Finally, here are also some photographs of Vedap??hakas from my fieldwork
in case you are interested:

http://tinyurl.com/kgdrj9a

@Finn: for your online bilbliography I am sure you will find other works in
the bibliography of my dissertation, If you want we can collaborate on
this, I would be very interested to help you out.

Please excuse this self-promotional email, but I am eager to share my work
with the few people who can be potentially interested in what I do.

Best,
Borayin Larios

______________________________
Borayin Larios
J?gerpfad 13
69118 Heidelberg
Germany
Mobile: (+49)17672329143
Home:  (+49)62211379228
https://uni-heidelberg.academia.edu/BorayinLarios
http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/mitarbeiter/larios

On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I shall send some contacts which will be helpful in this regard.
>
>
> Dr.RVSS Avadhanulu did a recording of several Vedic recitations. He has a
> website:
>
>
>
>  http://www.shrivedabharathi.in/dravadhanulu.html
>
>
>
> Dr Vamshi Krishna Ghanapathi did his PhD on Vedic recitations
>
>
>
> his email: vkghanapathi at gmail.com
>
>
>
> Dr. Subroto Roy does research on Vedic recitation :
>
>
>
> subrotor at gmail.com
>
>
>
> Sri Vidyashankar Sundareshanji from Shringeri Math:
>
>
>
> svidyasankar at gmail.com
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Nagaraj
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it  Fri Jul 11 16:15:28 2014
From: raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it (Raffaele Torella)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 14 18:15:28 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN-Hqeb8LHkc0hW9oVv7L5hNZFn1iL9mFbRYUW+UfVDQCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0A6A772F-1A3A-4DF0-B0D4-E77D811F24C2@uniroma1.it>

May I suggest you to take into account the possibility of understanding p?talat? not as p?ta-lat? "gold leaf?, but as p?tala-t? ?brass-ness??

Regards,
Raffaele Torella

Il giorno 10/lug/2014, alle ore 23:22, Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com> ha scritto:

> For those following the alchemy discussion, Prof. Torella offered this important parallel passage (?Pvv III p. 348): 
> 
> yad? v? sarvathaiva pradhva?sit? vidr?vit? v? bhavati tury?t?ta-da??y?? . . . tan-nija-r?pa-samyag-viddha-kanaka-r?pat?tyanta-jara??p?dita-tatsa?sk?rava?a-p?talat?va?e?a-vidruta-rasa-ny?yena 
> 
> Which I think confirms what we have been saying about the alchemical processes here. My first pass at a translation would be: 
> 
> "or when [objectivity] is completely destroyed or liquified, i.e. in the state Beyond the Fourth, after the manner of the liquid mercury that remains after the gold leaf -- i.e. the power of the impression(s) of that [objectivity]--has been thoroughly digested, its form having been [first] well penetrated by the innate form of that [consciousness]".
> 
> I hope I am correct in taking p?talat? as "gold leaf". The sentences immediately before this one establish that the penetration of (in this case) copper by mercury extracts the gold (rasa-viddhat?mra-kanaka-ny?yena), corresponding to the Fourth State in which objectivity is covered (idant? ?cch?dit?), only its impressions remaining. 
> 
> I hope Prof. Torella and/or others will correct any mistakes here. 
> 
> best, CW
> 
> 
> On 10 July 2014 02:45, Raffaele Torella <raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it> wrote:
> 
> just after an interminable car trip in Central Europe, I do not have the mental alertness to express my overall and detailed opinion on this very interesting matter. For the moment, at least, I can?t refrain from making some short remarks on the last point (and indirectly on my alleged ?confusion?). 
> 
> yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman? ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??; 
> yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o ?tyanta? kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti kevala? tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati. 
> 
> drutarasa is clearly (at least to my mind) a bahuvr?hi depending on pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? . However fairly elliptical, also the following tatsa?sk?ra? also has to be taken as a bahuvr?hi, nuancing sa drutarasa iva ?bh?ti (of course, we would have been very grateful to Abh. for a more merciful tatsa?sk?rasahita?, or so?; also possibly to be understood as: ?only, the sa?sk?ras left by body, pr??a, etc. [for the moment still remains]). The key term is here kevalam, which introduces a restriction with the regards the previous statement (which also contains in itself the germ of a possible restriction: drutarasa *iva*.  Wallis? alternative interpretation ("the sole impression of awakened consciousness itself?) does not convince me: in these contexts sa?sk?ra? always refers to the residual traces left by ?inferior? realities on the way of their being progressively overcome or transfigured (see e.g. the somewhat parallel passage in IPVV III p. 348 tannijar?pasamyagviddhakanakar?pat?tyantajara??p?ditatatsa?sk?rava?ap?talat?va?e?avidrutarasany?yena).
> 
> I should like also to add that the tury?t?ta sam?ve?a, which this passage refers to, is not something intrinsically different from turya, but only its progressive extension, which virtually leads the complete elimination of the sa?sk?ras too. In saying ?virtually? I mean that for these authors this is in a sense an endless process. After all, if the process were indeed completed, how could sam?ve?a itself be possible? As Abhinava says (IPV on III.2.12) sam?ve?apallav? eva ca prasiddhadeh?dipram?t?bh?gaprahv?bh?vabh?van?nupr??it?? [?] dehap?te tu parame?vara evaikarasa? , ---- iti ka? kutra katha? sam?vi?et.
>  
> More (perhaps) to follow.
> 
> All best wishes to the members of this wonderful list
> Raffaele Torella
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prof. Raffaele Torella
> Chair of Sanskrit
> Istituto Italiano di Studi Orientali
> Sapienza Universit? di Roma
> www.scribd.com/raffaeletorella
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Fri Jul 11 18:14:10 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 14 20:14:10 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_SARIT_update:_Su=C5=9Brutasa=E1=B9=83hit=C4=81.?=
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cf8u4uspzUMUTznG0yvCgUTpr3x7v6AuDexCx3-ZbM0oQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am pleased to announce the addition of the Su?rutasa?hit? to the SARIT
library.

   - http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/navigate.pl?indologica.8

With thanks to the hard work of Tsutomu Yamashita and Yasutaka Muroya.

Furthermore, another major text has been added to the SARIT GIT repository,
and will be uploaded to the SARIT library in the near future.  Watch this
space.

Best,

Dominik Wujastyk


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Jul 12 06:21:01 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 14 08:21:01 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN-Hqeb8LHkc0hW9oVv7L5hNZFn1iL9mFbRYUW+UfVDQCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeBW6+fY1rg18nMPdWJWOm8Y6KFUUgQXSr=Q4bB2TwMEQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Christopher, you are using "piercing/penetration" again for vedha.
Were the arguments for "transformation/transmutation" not sufficiently
plausible?  Or applicable (philosophically)?

Best,
Dominik



On 10 July 2014 23:22, Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com> wrote:

> For those following the alchemy discussion, Prof. Torella offered this
> important parallel passage (?Pvv III p. 348):
>
> yad? v? sarvathaiva pradhva?sit? vidr?vit? v? bhavati tury?t?ta-da??y?? .
> . .
> tan-nija-r?pa-samyag-viddha-kanaka-r?pat?tyanta-jara??p?dita-tatsa?sk?rava?a-p?talat?va?e?a-vidruta-rasa-ny?yena
>
>
> Which I think confirms what we have been saying about the alchemical
> processes here. My first pass at a translation would be:
>
> "or when [objectivity] is completely destroyed or liquified, i.e. in the
> state Beyond the Fourth, after the manner of the liquid mercury that
> remains after the gold leaf -- i.e. the power of the impression(s) of that
> [objectivity]--has been thoroughly digested, its form having been [first]
> well penetrated by the innate form of that [consciousness]".
>
> I hope I am correct in taking *p?talat? *as "gold leaf". The sentences
> immediately before this one establish that the penetration of (in this
> case) copper by mercury extracts the gold (
> *rasa-viddhat?mra-kanaka-ny?yena*), corresponding to the Fourth State in
> which objectivity is covered (*idant? ?cch?dit?*), only its impressions
> remaining.
>
> I hope Prof. Torella and/or others will correct any mistakes here.
>
> best, CW
>
>
> On 10 July 2014 02:45, Raffaele Torella <raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> just after an interminable car trip in Central Europe, I do not have the
>> mental alertness to express my overall and detailed opinion on this very
>> interesting matter. For the moment, at least, I can?t refrain from making
>> some short remarks on the last point (and indirectly on my alleged
>> ?confusion?).
>>
>> *yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
>> ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
>> tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
>> *yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o
>> ?tyanta? kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti
>> kevala? tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati. *
>>
>> *drutarasa* is clearly (at least to my mind) a *bahuvr?hi* depending on *pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu?
>> . *However fairly elliptical, also the following *tatsa?sk?ra? *also has
>> to be taken as a *bahuvr?hi*, nuancing *sa drutarasa iva ?bh?ti* (of
>> course, we would have been very grateful to Abh. for a more merciful
>> *tatsa?sk?rasahita?,* or so?; also possibly to be understood as: ?only,
>> the *sa?sk?ras* left by body, pr??a, etc. [for the moment still
>> remains]). The key term is here *kevalam*, which introduces a
>> restriction with the regards the previous statement (which also contains in
>> itself the germ of a possible restriction: *drutarasa *iva*. * Wallis?
>> alternative interpretation ("the sole impression of awakened consciousness
>> itself?) does not convince me: in these contexts *sa?sk?ra? *always
>> refers to the residual traces left by ?inferior? realities on the way of
>> their being progressively overcome or transfigured (see e.g. the somewhat
>> parallel passage in IPVV III p. 348
>> *tannijar?pasamyagviddhakanakar?pat?tyantajara??p?ditatatsa?sk?rava?ap?talat?va?e?avidrutarasany?yena).*
>>
>> I should like also to add that the *tury?t?ta sam?ve?a*, which this
>> passage refers to, is not something intrinsically different from *turya*,
>> but only its progressive extension, which virtually leads the
>> complete elimination of the *sa?sk?ras* too. In saying ?virtually? I
>> mean that for these authors this is in a sense an endless process. After
>> all, if the process were indeed completed, how could *sam?ve?a* itself
>> be possible? As Abhinava says (IPV on III.2.12) *sam?ve?apallav? eva ca
>> prasiddhadeh?dipram?t?bh?gaprahv?bh?vabh?van?nupr??it?? [?] **dehap?te
>> tu parame?vara evaikarasa? , ---- iti ka? kutra katha? sam?vi?et.*
>>
>> More (perhaps) to follow.
>>
>> All best wishes to the members of this wonderful list
>> Raffaele Torella
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Prof. Raffaele Torella
>> Chair of Sanskrit
>> Istituto Italiano di Studi Orientali
>> Sapienza Universit? di Roma
>> www.scribd.com/raffaeletorella
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sat Jul 12 09:25:14 2014
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 14 09:25:14 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Asian Manuscript collections, Bibliotheque nationale de France
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED03746976C@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

Dear friends,

I call your attention to the following petition in favor of the maintenance of the Asian
Manuscript collections of the Bibliotheque nationale de France.

http://www.petitions24.net/pour_le_maintien_a_paris_des_livres_asiatiques_de_la_bnf

Please feel free to circulate to Asian Studies lists with which you may be familiar.

with thanks and apologies for cross-posting,

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________



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From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 12 18:02:49 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 14 11:02:49 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeBW6+fY1rg18nMPdWJWOm8Y6KFUUgQXSr=Q4bB2TwMEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN_5KQiMXPyBKkNekftDAeQi45UYhyY4T=yDESC4T1fT_Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dominik, thank you for the question. Taking Dr Aklujkar's arguments
for a more strictly philological approach into account, my current
conclusion is that *vedha *can have a narrower, more literal meaning and a
broader, more general meaning (much like *pr??a*) and therefore, in
Abhinava's ?Pv passage (not cited in this discussion), where the word
stands on its own, I am translating *vidh- *as "transmute", and in the more
detailed ?Pvv passage, where *vidh- *denotes the first stage of a process
(followed by *abhini+vi? *and *j?r?a*), I am translating it as
"penetrate".  The sources cited by David White in his Alchemical Body
seemed to corroborate that when *vedha *is used in a looser, more
metaphorical sense -- or as the *result *of an alchemical process --,
"transmute" is appropriate, whereas a more precise usage demands
"penetrate".  Thus I would agree with those who take it as "transmute"
in *Bodhicary?vat?ra
*1.10.

best, CW




On 11 July 2014 23:21, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Christopher, you are using "piercing/penetration" again for vedha.
> Were the arguments for "transformation/transmutation" not sufficiently
> plausible?  Or applicable (philosophically)?
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
>
> On 10 July 2014 23:22, Christopher Wallis <bhairava11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For those following the alchemy discussion, Prof. Torella offered this
>> important parallel passage (?Pvv III p. 348):
>>
>> yad? v? sarvathaiva pradhva?sit? vidr?vit? v? bhavati tury?t?ta-da??y?? .
>> . .
>> tan-nija-r?pa-samyag-viddha-kanaka-r?pat?tyanta-jara??p?dita-tatsa?sk?rava?a-p?talat?va?e?a-vidruta-rasa-ny?yena
>>
>>
>> Which I think confirms what we have been saying about the alchemical
>> processes here. My first pass at a translation would be:
>>
>> "or when [objectivity] is completely destroyed or liquified, i.e. in the
>> state Beyond the Fourth, after the manner of the liquid mercury that
>> remains after the gold leaf -- i.e. the power of the impression(s) of that
>> [objectivity]--has been thoroughly digested, its form having been [first]
>> well penetrated by the innate form of that [consciousness]".
>>
>> I hope I am correct in taking *p?talat? *as "gold leaf". The sentences
>> immediately before this one establish that the penetration of (in this
>> case) copper by mercury extracts the gold (
>> *rasa-viddhat?mra-kanaka-ny?yena*), corresponding to the Fourth State in
>> which objectivity is covered (*idant? ?cch?dit?*), only its impressions
>> remaining.
>>
>> I hope Prof. Torella and/or others will correct any mistakes here.
>>
>> best, CW
>>
>>
>> On 10 July 2014 02:45, Raffaele Torella <raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> just after an interminable car trip in Central Europe, I do not have the
>>> mental alertness to express my overall and detailed opinion on this very
>>> interesting matter. For the moment, at least, I can?t refrain from making
>>> some short remarks on the last point (and indirectly on my alleged
>>> ?confusion?).
>>>
>>> *yad? tu par?m???a-nityatva-vy?pitv?di-dharmakai?varya-ghan?tman?
>>> ahambh?va-siddharasena ??ny?di-deha-dh?tv-anta? vidhyate yena prameyatv?t
>>> tat cyavata iva, tad? turyada??*;
>>> *yad?pi viddho 'sau pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu? sa?vid-rasena abhinivi??o
>>> ?tyanta? kanaka-dh?tur iva j?r?a? kriyate yena sa druta-rasa iva ?bh?ti
>>> kevala? tat-sa?sk?ra?, tad?pi tury?t?ta-da?? s? bhavati. *
>>>
>>> *drutarasa* is clearly (at least to my mind) a *bahuvr?hi* depending on *pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu?
>>> . *However fairly elliptical, also the following *tatsa?sk?ra? *also
>>> has to be taken as a *bahuvr?hi*, nuancing *sa drutarasa iva ?bh?ti* (of
>>> course, we would have been very grateful to Abh. for a more merciful
>>> *tatsa?sk?rasahita?,* or so?; also possibly to be understood as: ?only,
>>> the *sa?sk?ras* left by body, pr??a, etc. [for the moment still
>>> remains]). The key term is here *kevalam*, which introduces a
>>> restriction with the regards the previous statement (which also contains in
>>> itself the germ of a possible restriction: *drutarasa *iva*. * Wallis?
>>> alternative interpretation ("the sole impression of awakened consciousness
>>> itself?) does not convince me: in these contexts *sa?sk?ra? *always
>>> refers to the residual traces left by ?inferior? realities on the way of
>>> their being progressively overcome or transfigured (see e.g. the somewhat
>>> parallel passage in IPVV III p. 348
>>> *tannijar?pasamyagviddhakanakar?pat?tyantajara??p?ditatatsa?sk?rava?ap?talat?va?e?avidrutarasany?yena).*
>>>
>>> I should like also to add that the *tury?t?ta sam?ve?a*, which this
>>> passage refers to, is not something intrinsically different from *turya*,
>>> but only its progressive extension, which virtually leads the
>>> complete elimination of the *sa?sk?ras* too. In saying ?virtually? I
>>> mean that for these authors this is in a sense an endless process. After
>>> all, if the process were indeed completed, how could *sam?ve?a* itself
>>> be possible? As Abhinava says (IPV on III.2.12) *sam?ve?apallav? eva ca
>>> prasiddhadeh?dipram?t?bh?gaprahv?bh?vabh?van?nupr??it?? [?] **dehap?te
>>> tu parame?vara evaikarasa? , ---- iti ka? kutra katha? sam?vi?et.*
>>>
>>> More (perhaps) to follow.
>>>
>>> All best wishes to the members of this wonderful list
>>> Raffaele Torella
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Prof. Raffaele Torella
>>> Chair of Sanskrit
>>> Istituto Italiano di Studi Orientali
>>> Sapienza Universit? di Roma
>>> www.scribd.com/raffaeletorella
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>


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From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Sat Jul 12 19:19:52 2014
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 14 12:19:52 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN-Hqeb8LHkc0hW9oVv7L5hNZFn1iL9mFbRYUW+UfVDQCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30DFE157-ED42-4FA9-AA0A-4DAD48E03B00@mail.ubc.ca>

Dear Christopher, 

This is mainly to conclude my participation in the present discussion by taking note of a few specific points. (kindly excuse the mixture of transliteration conventions; I have not yet learned how to type the diacritics in Apple's Mail program; advice welcome.)

1. In my last post principally addressed to Prof. Matthew Kapstein, please correct the citation of Paa.nini 3.3.113 to k.rtya-lu.to bahulam. My thanks to Prof. George Cardona for bringing the wrong typing to my attention.

2. The video Dr. Dominik Wujastyk brought to our attention on 08 July is engaging and valuable. But it does not imply that mercury does not leave gold behind or mercury does not purify gold. Such implication is what we need to set my interpretation of the Abhinava-gupta passage aside. The narrator's relevant words, to the extent I could catch them, are:  "[mercury was used] for making gold." "for extracting gold and purifying it"  "mercury wraps itself up like a bed sheet". "Gold has almost completely vanished.  It's still there of course; it's just dissolved" (If necessary, those who can enhance the sound should give a transcript of the whole text).  Certainly no clear or direct support for taking vedha as 'transmuting'. vedha may be viewed as leading up to transmutation -- as causing it or being instrumental in some way, but it is not itself transmutation, and the word denoting it does not have transmutation as a part of its meaning. 

3. DW cited the following passage in his 09 July post: 
	>At Rasaratnasamuccaya 8.94-95 there is a definition of ?abdavedha. from blowing of iron, with mercury in the mouth, there is the creation of goldenness and silverness. That is known as Word-vedha.and the commentator makes it even more explicity that this is transmutation, using pari-?am.  Rasaratnasamuccayabodhin? on 8.95: ... tat lauhakha??a? svar??dir?pe?a pari?atam//that bit of iron is converted into the form of gold etc. ... yatra vedhe svar??dir?pe?a pari?amet sa ?abdavedha ityartha?// Word-vedha is where it converts with the form of gold etc. ...The operation being described here is not unclear.  The alchemist puts a piece of mercury in his mouth and blows on a piece of iron.  It becomes golden or silvery.  This "becoming" is "vedha."<
	It would have been better also to have the words of the Rasaratnasamuccaya  itself. Even if we confine ourselves to the commentary, it is clear that vedha refers to a stage preceding transformation. The  phrase yatra vedhe, even if it is not understood as  equal in meaaning to a locative absolute phrase like yasmin vedhe sati, must be taken as a situating phrase for the phenomenon of pari.naama. One should differentiate between transmuting implied by the context as a whole and  transmuting signified by a word. 
	Note also that what emerges is gold, something superior. 

4. In the passage added by Prof. Torella, there is something that could be useful to understanding the passage with which out discussion started, but it is difficult to determine the precise nature of that something, because the new passage  has its own 
difficulties.  ?Pvv III p. 348 reads (I have supplied the words you had dropped): 
	aham ity eka-rasena anuvedhe tu yadaa idantaa aacchaaditaa bhavati bhaavanaa-saatmyaad ii;svara-sadaa;siva-sa.mvidi iva turya-da;sayaa.m rasa-viddha-taamra-kanaka-nyaayena, yad? v? sarvathaiva pradhva?sit? vidr?vit? v? bhavati tury?t?ta-da??y?? ;saakta-sa.mvidi iva . . . tan-nija-r?pa-samyag-viddha-kanaka-r?pat?tyanta-jara??p?dita-tat-sa?sk?ra-va?a-p?talat?va?e?a-vidruta-rasa-ny?yena, tadaa puur.na-svaatantryollaasa eva deha eva sati api ni;se.sa-vibhuuti-laabhaat sadaa;sivaadi-;sariiravat. 
	Let us assume that the editor has punctuated the sentence(s) correctly and that he is justified in dissolving the sandhis the way he has. The passage does not come across as problem-free. At least the following questions present themselves: Is Abhinava speaking of two stages or understandings as ii;svara-sadaa;siva-sa.mvidi and ;saakta-sa.mvidi or  taamra-kanaka-nyaaya (or rasa-viddha-taamra-kanaka-nyaaya) and vidruta-rasa-ny?ya (or p?talat?va?e?a-vidruta-rasa-ny?ya) seem to indicate? Is tad/tan to be compounded with the following nija? If 'yes', the resultant expression sounds odd. If 'no', what does tad stand for? Can samyak, an adverb, naturally occur between nija-ruupa and viddha? If nija-ruupa and samyag-viddha are to qualify kanaka or kanaka-ruupataa jointly, what would be the meaning that would not be out of step with the following words -- 'own form and thouroughly penetrated' or 'thouroughly penetrated by own form'?  What is the reference of tat in tat-sa.mskaara? If pittalataa is 'gold leaf' as you say, how did you arrive at that meaning? Ordinarily pitta means 'bile' and lataa means 'vine'. (I think pittalataa is not be divided as pitta and lataa but as pittala 'brass' and -taa, abstraction suffix). 

5. Personally, I would change a translation, even if a hundred earlier scholars had accepted it in the past,  if it is pointed out to me that a good philological case has not been made for it. 

6. I had drafted the preceding yesterday. I only revised it this morning. Just before posting it, I noticed that Dr. Wujastyk has queried your translation and Prof. Torella has already pointed out the desirability of rendering pittalataa differently. 

Thanks for the rewarding exchanges. 

Best wishes.

a.a.



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From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 12 20:54:42 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 14 13:54:42 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <30DFE157-ED42-4FA9-AA0A-4DAD48E03B00@mail.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN-YjHBis_3tDMnJ4v1nwKVWsZSbWEdu94avh_8hCFfGWQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dr Aklujkar et. al.,

Thank you very much for this. Some brief answers to your questions and a
correction to a minor misreading follow, to which I don't expect a response
as I did note your desire to conclude the discussion.

Your point #4:  Abhinava is definitely thinking of two stages here (as
reading all of ?Pv and ?Pvv ad ?PK III.2.12 makes clear), the tury? stage
which liberates one on the level of ??vara- or Sad??iva-tattva, and the
tury?t?ta stage, which liberates one on the level of ?akti-tattva. This
indeed corresponds to a metaphorical use of two alchemical stages, one in
which the copper is penetrated (viddha) by the rasa, giving rise to gold
[through extraction] (rasa-viddha-taamra-kanaka-nyaayena), and one in which
that gold is digested (i.e. absorbed and dissolved) by the mercury, just as
we saw in the video
(atyanta-jara??p?dita-tat-sa?sk?ra-va?a-p?talat?va?e?a-vidruta-rasa-ny?yena).
The 'tat' in that compound is the layers of limited selfhood,
*pr??a-deh?di-dh?tu?.
*Secondly, I now suspect that the redundant and oddly phrased
tan-nija-r?pa-samyag-viddha-kanaka-r?pat? at which you look askance was
probably a marginal notation that got incorporated in the main text (as
sometimes happens in the KSTS).

Thirdly, we have *p?talat? *and not *pittalat?*. While I understand that it
could be "brass-ness", I think "gold leaf" makes more sense because this is
the second stage of the process, and the *rasa-viddha *does not transmute
copper into brass, surely!  As I'm sure you know, *lat? *in final position
of a compound can just mean "slender, delicate" (as in *b?hulat?* etc.).
The problem with my speculative reading is that I don't actually know
if *p?talat?
*is attested in the meaning "gold leaf".  Dominik? Anyone?

Lastly, re: your point #2, I think you are absolutely right as regards the
use of *vedha *with reference to alchemical operations; but it is not wild
speculation to suppose that in the sphere of more popular discourse,
uneducated as most were in the details of alchemy, the idea circulated that
alchemists magically transmuted base metal into gold using rasa, and thus
the word *vedha *used in a non-technical sense would mean "transmute", even
if technically speaking it is in error.  I see evidence for this hypothesis
in BCA 1.10, and I would bet we could find more in the story literature.
Thus both sides of the debate we've been having would be correct, depending
on the register and genre of Sanskrit literature in which the term occurs.

best, CW

p.s. my attempt at a translation of the passage you cite in full follows,
including the compound that I think is actually spurious, marked by {}.

*ahamity eka-rasena anuvedhe tu, yad? idant? ?cch?dit? bhavati,
bh?van?-s?tmy?d ??vara-sad??iva-sa?vidi iva turya-da??y??
rasa-viddha-t?mra-kanaka-ny?yena, yad? v? sarvathaiva pradhva?sit?
vidr?vit? v? bhavati tury?t?ta-da??y?? ??kta-sa?vidi iva
tan-nija-r?pa-samyag-viddha-kanaka-r?pat?tyanta-jara??p?dita-tatsa?sk?ra-va?a-p?talat?va?e?a-vidruta-rasa-ny?yena;
tad? p?r?a-sv?tantryoll?sa eva deha eva sati api . . .* | In the [process
of] penetration by the ?one taste? that is [the fundamental] ?I?, when a)
objectivity is covered, i.e. in the Fourth state [that arises] due to
becoming habituated to meditative contemplation [on reality] and in which
one possesses the consciousness of ??vara or Sad??iva as it were, according
to the maxim of gold [arising] from copper due to being penetrated by
mercury, or when b) [objectivity] is completely destroyed or ?liquified,?
i.e. in the state Beyond the Fourth in which consciousness attains the
level of ?akti-tattva, in the manner of the liquid mercury that remains
after the gold leaf?i.e. the power of the impression(s) of that
[objectivity]?has been thoroughly digested, {its form having been [first]
well penetrated by the innate form of that [?I?]*}, then c) there is simply
the delightful blossoming of full autonomy, even while the body exists.

* I take the tan- in the compound beginning tan-nija-r?pa- as referring to
cit or aha?bh?va.


On 12 July 2014 12:19, Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Christopher,
>
> This is mainly to conclude my participation in the present discussion by
> taking note of a few specific points. (kindly excuse the mixture of
> transliteration conventions; I have not yet learned how to type the
> diacritics in Apple's Mail program; advice welcome.)
>
> 1. In my last post principally addressed to Prof. Matthew Kapstein, please
> correct the citation of Paa.nini 3.3.113 to k.rtya-lu.to bahulam. My
> thanks to Prof. George Cardona for bringing the wrong typing to my
> attention.
>
> 2. The video Dr. Dominik Wujastyk brought to our attention on 08 July is
> engaging and valuable. But it does not imply that mercury does not leave
> gold behind or mercury does not purify gold. Such implication is what we
> need to set my interpretation of the Abhinava-gupta passage aside. The
> narrator's relevant words, to the extent I could catch them,
> are:  "[mercury was used] for making gold." "for extracting gold and
> purifying it"  "mercury wraps itself up like a bed sheet". "Gold has almost
> completely vanished.  It's still there of course; it's just dissolved" (If
> necessary, those who can enhance the sound should give a transcript of the
> whole text).  Certainly no clear or direct support for taking vedha as
> 'transmuting'. vedha may be viewed as leading up to transmutation -- as
> causing it or being instrumental in some way, but it is not itself
> transmutation, and the word denoting it does not have transmutation as a
> part of its meaning.
>
> 3. DW cited the following passage in his 09 July post:
> >At *Rasaratnasamuccaya* 8.94-95
> <http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:165.indologica>
> there is a definition of ?abdavedha. from blowing of iron, with mercury
> in the mouth, there is the creation of goldenness and silverness. That is
> known as Word-vedha.and the commentator makes it even more explicity that
> this is transmutation, using pari-?am.  *Rasaratnasamuccayabodhin?* on
> 8.95
> <http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:166.indologica>: ...
> *tat lauhakha**??**a**?** svar**?**?dir?pe**?**a pari**?**atam//*that bit
> of iron is converted into the form of gold etc. ... yatra vedhe svar?
> ?dir?pe?a pari?amet sa ?abdavedha ityartha?// Word-vedha is where it
> converts with the form of gold etc. ...The operation being described here
> is not unclear.  The alchemist puts a piece of mercury in his mouth and
> blows on a piece of iron.  It becomes golden or silvery.  This "becoming"
> is "vedha."<
> It would have been better also to have the words of the Rasaratnasamuccaya
> <http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getobject.pl?c.7:8:165.indologica>  itself.
> Even if we confine ourselves to the commentary, it is clear that vedha
> refers to a stage preceding transformation. The  phrase yatra vedhe, even
> if it is not understood as  equal in meaaning to a locative absolute phrase
> like yasmin vedhe sati, must be taken as a situating phrase for the
> phenomenon of pari.naama. One should differentiate between transmuting
> implied by the context as a whole and  transmuting signified by a word.
> Note also that what emerges is gold, something superior.
>
> 4. In the passage added by Prof. Torella, there is something that could be
> useful to understanding the passage with which out discussion started, but
> it is difficult to determine the precise nature of that something, because
> the new passage  has its own
> difficulties.  ?Pvv III p. 348 reads (I have supplied the words you had
> dropped):
> aham ity eka-rasena anuvedhe tu yadaa idantaa aacchaaditaa bhavati
> bhaavanaa-saatmyaad ii;svara-sadaa;siva-sa.mvidi iva turya-da;sayaa.m
> rasa-viddha-taamra-kanaka-nyaayena, yad? v? sarvathaiva pradhva?sit?
> vidr?vit? v? bhavati tury?t?ta-da??y?? ;saakta-sa.mvidi iva . . .
> tan-nija-r?pa-samyag-viddha-kanaka-r?pat?tyanta-jara??p?dita-tat-sa?sk?ra-va?a-p?talat?va?e?a-vidruta-rasa-ny?yena,
> tadaa puur.na-svaatantryollaasa eva deha eva sati api
> ni;se.sa-vibhuuti-laabhaat sadaa;sivaadi-;sariiravat.
> Let us assume that the editor has punctuated the sentence(s) correctly and
> that he is justified in dissolving the sandhis the way he has. The
> passage does not come across as problem-free. At least the following
> questions present themselves: Is Abhinava speaking of two stages or
> understandings as ii;svara-sadaa;siva-sa.mvidi and ;saakta-sa.mvidi or  taamra-kanaka-nyaaya
> (or rasa-viddha-taamra-kanaka-nyaaya) and vidruta-rasa-ny?ya (or p?talat?
> va?e?a-vidruta-rasa-ny?ya) seem to indicate? Is tad/tan to be compounded
> with the following nija? If 'yes', the resultant expression sounds odd. If
> 'no', what does tad stand for? Can samyak, an adverb, naturally occur
> between nija-ruupa and viddha? If nija-ruupa and samyag-viddha are to
> qualify kanaka or kanaka-ruupataa jointly, what would be the meaning that
> would not be out of step with the following words -- 'own form and
> thouroughly penetrated' or 'thouroughly penetrated by own form'?  What is
> the reference of tat in tat-sa.mskaara? If pittalataa is 'gold leaf' as you
> say, how did you arrive at that meaning? Ordinarily pitta means 'bile' and
> lataa means 'vine'. (I think pittalataa is not be divided as pitta and
> lataa but as pittala 'brass' and -taa, abstraction suffix).
>
> 5. Personally, I would change a translation, even if a hundred earlier
> scholars had accepted it in the past,  if it is pointed out to me that a
> good philological case has not been made for it.
>
> 6. I had drafted the preceding yesterday. I only revised it this morning.
> Just before posting it, I noticed that Dr. Wujastyk has queried your
> translation and Prof. Torella has already pointed out the desirability of
> rendering pittalataa differently.
>
> Thanks for the rewarding exchanges.
>
> Best wishes.
>
> a.a.
>
>


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From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 04:52:43 2014
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 14 21:52:43 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN-YjHBis_3tDMnJ4v1nwKVWsZSbWEdu94avh_8hCFfGWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B7644B5A-5767-43AA-A56B-0A2361F48F7D@gmail.com>

Dear Christopher,

Yes. You are right. It should be piita, not pitta. But what I consider to be a more likely meaning of the word would not change, because piitala/pittala continues to exist in slightly different forms in modern Indo-Aryan languages in the sense  'brass'. So does taamra in forms such as taamba/taambaa. Furthermore, if the idea ' leaf" were to be conveyed, a Skt author would have naturally thought of words such as suvar.na-patra or kanaka-patra. They indeed are used in modern Indian languages as they are or in slightly different forms. 

You write: >it is not wild speculation to suppose that in the sphere of more popular discourse, uneducated as most were in the details of alchemy, the idea circulated that alchemists magically transmuted base metal into gold using rasa, and thus the word vedha used in a non-technical sense would mean "transmute", even if technically speaking it is in error.<

Researchers are frequently tempted to rationalize as they feel a need to reconcile different strands of evidence. Sometimes it is also useful to mention possibilities of reconciliation for the benefit of future research. However, rationalization should not be allowed to take the place of reason or evidence. 

Your write further: >I see evidence for this hypothesis in BCA 1.10<. 

You will be justified in seeing the Bodhi-caryaavataara verse this way only if the Tibetan cited by Prof. Kapstein ("It is the finest transformer because it causes very great transformation") is an explanation of only vedhaniiyam or atiiva vedhaniiyam and not a capturing of the import of the whole of 'rasa-raajam atiiva vedhaniiyam. As it stands, the Tibetan seems to be doing the  latter with focus on rasa-raaja. 

Now I must indeed return to my other 'time-is-of the-essence' kind of commitments.

a.a.


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From slaje at kabelmail.de  Sun Jul 13 07:13:05 2014
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 09:13:05 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [Indo-Eurasia] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <A685E430-2026-499C-933D-AE889FF906C1@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nUX9+s_2G5ZY+L-AjxWMryb-E16CRJfNWpW867KGBZ=Kg@mail.gmail.com>

?Indological expertise is in demand,

FYI,

WS
?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Steve Farmer saf at safarmer.com [Indo-Eurasian_research] <
Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com>
Date: 2014-07-13 8:11 GMT+02:00
Subject: [Indo-Eurasia] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
To: Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com
Cc: Steve Farmer <saf at safarmer.com>



Revealing interview with Yellapragada Sudershan Rao, Modi's new Chairman of
the powerful Indian Council of Historical Research (ICHR), in today's
_Outlook India_:

"Ramayana, Mahabharata Are True Accounts Of The Period...Not Myths"
http://tinyurl.com/qadhsft

Commentary in the same edition by Anuradha Raman:
"Ram, Where Art Thou"?
http://www.outlookindia.com/article/Ram-Where-Art-Thou/291362

Total public silence from Western Indologists so far on Rao's appointment,
which is curious.

Typical quotation from the interview with Rao, a colleague of NS Rajaram,
responding to questions from the interviewer:

*You are the author of the Mahabharata project? What is the project about?*

There is a certain view that the Mahabharata or the Ramayana are myths. I
don?t see them as myths because they were written at a certain point of
time in history. They are important sources of information in the way we
write history. What we write today may become an important source of
information for the fut?ure in the future. When analysed, of course, they
could be declared to be true or false. History is not static. It belongs to
the people, it?s made by the people. Similarly, the Ram?ayana is true for
people...it?s in the collective memory of generations of Indians. We can?t
say the Ramayana or the Mahabharata are myths. Myths are from a western
perspective.

*What does that mean?*

For us, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata are true accounts of the periods
in which they were written.


Steve

 __._,_.___
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------------------------------
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From michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de  Sun Jul 13 07:30:29 2014
From: michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Michaels, Axel)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 09:30:29 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
Message-ID: <CFE80061.33C1C%michaels@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de>

For another critical comment of this incident by Romila Thapar, not an Indologist, but an eminent historian, see: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/romila-thapar-smriti-irani-old-history-baiters-of-bjp/1/370799.html?fb_action_ids=1490229607886174&fb_action_types=og.recommends

Best,
Axel Michaels

From: Walter Slaje <slaje at kabelmail.de<mailto:slaje at kabelmail.de>>
Date: Sunday, July 13, 2014 9:13 AM
To: "indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>" <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>, Informationsaustausch der deutschsprachigen Indologie <INDOLOGIE at LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE<mailto:INDOLOGIE at LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE>>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [Indo-Eurasia] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman

?Indological expertise is in demand,

FYI,

WS
?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Steve Farmer saf at safarmer.com<mailto:saf at safarmer.com> [Indo-Eurasian_research] <Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com<mailto:Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com>>
Date: 2014-07-13 8:11 GMT+02:00
Subject: [Indo-Eurasia] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
To: Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com<mailto:Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com>
Cc: Steve Farmer <saf at safarmer.com<mailto:saf at safarmer.com>>



Revealing interview with Yellapragada Sudershan Rao, Modi's new Chairman of the powerful Indian Council of Historical Research (ICHR), in today's _Outlook India_:

"Ramayana, Mahabharata Are True Accounts Of The Period...Not Myths"
http://tinyurl.com/qadhsft

Commentary in the same edition by Anuradha Raman:
"Ram, Where Art Thou"?
http://www.outlookindia.com/article/Ram-Where-Art-Thou/291362

Total public silence from Western Indologists so far on Rao's appointment, which is curious.

Typical quotation from the interview with Rao, a colleague of NS Rajaram, responding to questions from the interviewer:


You are the author of the Mahabharata project? What is the project about?

There is a certain view that the Mahabharata or the Ramayana are myths. I don?t see them as myths because they were written at a certain point of time in history. They are important sources of information in the way we write history. What we write today may become an important source of information for the fut?ure in the future. When analysed, of course, they could be declared to be true or false. History is not static. It belongs to the people, it?s made by the people. Similarly, the Ram?ayana is true for people...it?s in the collective memory of generations of Indians. We can?t say the Ramayana or the Mahabharata are myths. Myths are from a western perspective.

What does that mean?

For us, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata are true accounts of the periods in which they were written.

Steve

__._,_.___
________________________________
Posted by: Steve Farmer <saf at safarmer.com<mailto:saf at safarmer.com>>
________________________________
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From shrinsaha at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 08:23:32 2014
From: shrinsaha at gmail.com (Niranjan Saha)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 13:53:32 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Obituary of Professor S. Revathy
In-Reply-To: <AFBAA684-5ECD-4AD5-BA80-27B5657C13BB@unm.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHuz+CqS_d0G7hdSu0A-=jJSZcFgH7eOT0TVDmO+GJKwW5B5Dw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Professor Taber,

Namaskar! It is from your remarks I could realise what more contribution
she would have made had she been with us, though I did attend classes of
other teachers (Professors Das, Padmanabhan, Drs Narasimhan, Gayethri
Peetha, Umamaheswari) and not hers, in my MA days as a
core-Philosophy-student at the MU--- the fact which is echoed below by one
of her old students Dr Gayethti Peetha Ganeshan.

The only thing I did for her (in 2003) I got her a copy of the
Tarkasangraha and Dipika elucidated by Gopinath Bhattacharya and published
from Calcutta. I can only realise her through her works left with us.

With best rgs,
Niranjan Saha, PhD Candidate, Study of the Religions, SOAS



Thank you niranjan for forwarding prof. Taber remarks. I would sit on the
edge of my chair to take down every word she said. The understanding should
be instantaneous within the class was her dictum. She belonged to the old
world of Indian teachers, true, honest, rigorous and kind. May her soul
rest in peace.

Gayathri Preetha ganesan














On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 11:52 AM, John Taber <jataber at unm.edu> wrote:

>  Mr. Saha,
>
> What a loss! I met Prof. Revathi, at that time ?Miss Revathy,? when I was
> a Fulbright scholar in Chennai in 1985. I was looking forward to reading
> with Prof. Veezhinathan but he was too busy. I was a little disappointed
> when he "handed me off," as I then thought, to his graduate student. How
> wrong I was! I learned more from her than most of the pandits I studied
> with that year put together. We read Vedantaparibhasa and
> Siddhantamuktavali. The depth of her knowledge and the precision of her
> explanations were awe-inspiring. It was from her that I learned that Indian
> logic matches Western logic in power, rigor, and clarity. She must have
> been summoned to some other world where she will converse with gods and
> continue her scholarly pursuits in the company of other Sanskrit
> luminaries. A spirit like hers could never be extinguished.
>
> John Taber
> Philosophy Department, University of New Mexico
>
>  On Jul 9, 2014, at 11:07 AM, Niranjan Saha <shrinsaha at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>   Dear All,
>
> My heart-felt condolences to the bereaved family of the late Professor
> S.Revathy and the lover of Sanskrit and Indian Philosophy as I've heard of
> her demise yesterday only. I spoke to her the month before this happened.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Niranjan, Kol 67
>
>  Features <http://www.thehindu.com/features/> ? Friday Review, The Hindu,
> Chennai, Feb 20, 2014 <http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/> chennai,
> February 20, 2014
> Updated: February 20, 2014 16:25 IST
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> <http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/a-teacher-par-excellence/article5709488.ece?css=print>
>   ?   T
> <http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/a-teacher-par-excellence/article5709488.ece>
> T
> <http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/a-teacher-par-excellence/article5709488.ece>
>
>    Tweet <https://twitter.com/share>
>  inShare
>  3
> <http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/a-teacher-par-excellence/article5709488.ece#>
>  [image: Dr. S. Revathy]
> Special Arrangement Dr. S. Revathy
>   TOPICS
> human interest <http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=1151> people
> <http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=1158>
>   Sanskrit students of the late Prof. Dr. S. Revathy pay tribute to a
> dedicated educator, scholar and researcher.
>
> Educational institutions require keen teachers, especially in the study of
> Sanskrit polemical works. The students of Sanskrit at the University of
> Madras were fortunate to have witnessed a rare combination of scholarship
> and flair for teaching in the late Professor Dr. S. Revathy (1959-2014),
> who was noted for her in-depth knowledge of Advaita Vedanta and Navya-Nyaya.
>
> Armed with a Bachelor's Degree in Sanskrit from Queen Mary's College,
> Chennai, she completed her Masters Degree, M.Phil, and Ph.D from Madras
> University. An outstanding student and research scholar, Dr. Revathi's
> dream to popularise Sanskrit came true when she was appointed a lecturer in
> the Sanskrit Department of the Madras University, wherein she served for 27
> years - as lecturer from 1987 to 1995, as Reader from 1995 to 2003 and as
> Professor of Sanskrit from 2003 onwards.
>
> Hailing from a Vaishnavite family, she believed that religion and
> philosophy are twin branches of the same tree. In an illustrious teaching
> career spanning over two decades, she had presented over 100 papers at
> national and international seminars, published over 50 research articles,
> four books and a monograph. Some of her well known, published titles
> include ?Three Little Known Advaitins? (Doctoral Thesis), A critical
> edition of Bhagavad Gita with commentary Padayojana by Ramachandendra, A
> critical edition of Upadesa Sahasri of Sankaracarya with commentary
> Padayojanika by Rama Tirtha, and a monograph titled, ?Manamala of
> Acyutakrishnandatirtha.? She co-authored the text Vedanta Samgraha of
> Ramaraya Kavi along with Professor Dr. R. Balasubramanian and this was
> published in 2012. Her research articles covered some rare topics such as
> Criticism of Buddhism by Mimamsaka, Review of Purvamimamsa doctrines by
> Jayanta Bhatta.
>
> She always remembered with humility, her guru, Professor Dr. N.
> Veezhinathan, and followed in his footsteps as a committed teacher eager to
> continue his legacy. She was sought after by other scholars to exchange or
> present her views and knowledge, to review and evaluate research works in
> the field of Nyaya, Advaita, music, dance, sculpture, philosophy, pure
> language. Fluent in Sanskrit, English, Tamil and Telugu, and with a
> Siromani degree in Advaita, under her able guidance, 17 students were
> awarded Doctorate Degrees in Sanskrit.
>
> A multi-talented person, she was ever willing to devote extra time to help
> her students and took on the role of friend, philosopher and guide. The
> number of Sanskrit books in her collection was a testimony to her thirst
> for knowledge. She set high standards in learning and teaching, and
> continued to delve deep into the language -thanks to the unwavering support
> she received from her husband, Mr. Sukumar, and two sons.
>
> Her outstanding contribution to Sanskrit research and teaching was
> recognised through the 'Ram Krishna Sanskrit Award' in 2002 from Saraswati
> Visvas, Canada, followed by 'Krishna Tatacharya Endowment Award' in 2003,
> Bangalore. Nominated by the Ministry of Human Resources Development,
> Government of India, she attended the 14th World Sanskrit Conference at
> Kyoto University, Japan in 2009. In 2010, she received the 'Certificate of
> Appreciation' for exemplary contribution to society and preserving India?s
> cultural and spiritual heritage from Sringeri Jagadguru Sri Sri Bharati
> Theertha Mahaswamigal Sacred 60th Birth Year Celebrations Committee,
> Chennai. The University of Madras awarded her the 'Academic Achievement'
> award in 2012.
>
> The sudden and untimely demise of Dr. S. Revathy on February 5, is a great
> loss to scholars of Sanskrit and scores of students, who had the
> opportunity to listen to her deep, resonating voice expounding the
> subtleties of Advaita and Nyaya philosophy. Her admirers and well wishers
> will always remember her as one whose every breath spelt Sanskrit.
>
> Keywords: Prof. Dr. S. Revathy
> <http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/a-teacher-par-excellence/article5709488.ece#>
> , sanskrit
> <http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/a-teacher-par-excellence/article5709488.ece#>
>
>  _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sun Jul 13 08:52:49 2014
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 08:52:49 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED03746924A@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED03746981A@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

Dear Ashok,

There is absolutely no ambiguity about what translates what in the Tibetan version:

shin tu cher sgyur bar byed pa?i phyir mchog tu sgyur ba?o
?It is the finest transformer because it causes very great transformation.?
can only be a rendering of
atyuccavedhak?ritv?d at?va vedhan?yam
and nothing else. The formation of the Tibetan is quite transparent:

atyucca = shin tu cher, "very much, exceedingly"
vedha- = sgyur bar, "to transform, change (x) into (y), translate"
k?ritv?d = byed pa?i phyir, "because it does/makes/causes"
at?va = mchog tu, "finest, to the highest degree"
vedhan?yam = sgyur ba?o, "transforms, is that which transforms."

The rasaj?ta is mentioned in the preceding sentence, both in Skt. and its Tib. trans., but not at all here.

hope this helps to clarify,
as ever,
Matthew
 
Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago





From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 09:48:29 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 11:48:29 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <B7644B5A-5767-43AA-A56B-0A2361F48F7D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeTuqSTMNNhB4KAUzxSTJgbyS1ox71H_nfxoBxSyBJx8g@mail.gmail.com>

?Just on the pitta/p?ta issue, these are, from the point of view of
historical phonology, alternants of the same word meaning "yellow" (cf. law
of morae; Mayrhofer). Bile, pitta, in Indian medicine, was "[yellow, p?ta]
bile."  The word p?ta occurs very frequently in ayurvedic sentences in
close collocation with the word pitta (e.g., see this listing of
collocations
<http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/search3t?dbname=indologica&word=.*pitt.*+.*p%C4%ABt.*&OUTPUT=conc&CONJUNCT=PROXY&DISTANCE=5&title=&author=>).
So I think this semantic connection was alive in the minds of ayurvedic
authors.  This deserves proper study.

India did not evolve the concept of "black bile" (Gk. melancholia) that
evolved in Hippocratic medicine.

Best,
Dominik


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From dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de  Sun Jul 13 09:48:36 2014
From: dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de (Dragomir Dimitrov)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 11:48:36 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn (1941-2014)
Message-ID: <53C255F4.16942.2344BA01@dimitrov.staff.uni-marburg.de>

Dear colleagues,

it is with deep regret that I convey to you the sad news of the passing away 
of our beloved teacher and good friend Professor Michael Hahn. After a 
prolonged illness this distinguished scholar left us peacefully in the evening 
of July 12, 2014. For almost two decades from 1988 till 2006 Professor 
Michael Hahn held the chair of the Department of Indology and Tibetology at 
the University of Marburg, where he fostered many students and contributed 
numerous books and articles. Even to the very last days of his fruitful life, 
despite the impediments of his illness, he was always keen to promote 
scholarship and generously shared his vast knowledge. We will all dearly 
miss him. A small memorial service will be held today at 5 p.m. in the St. 
Elisabeth-Hospiz in Marburg. At present arrangements for a funeral service at 
his birthplace in Otterndorf are being made.

Kind regards,
Dragomir Dimitrov


________________________________________

   Dr. phil. Dragomir Dimitrov
   Indologie und Tibetologie
   Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
   Deutschhausstr. 12
   D-35032 Marburg
   Germany

   Tel.: +49 6421 28 24640, +49 178 9190340
   E-mail: dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de
   http://www.uni-marburg.de/indologie
________________________________________







From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 10:06:40 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 12:06:40 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn (1941-2014)
In-Reply-To: <53C255F4.16942.2344BA01@dimitrov.staff.uni-marburg.de>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeeSRwiq6ifJT==L1PJkHcXqGJaZG3kNEYz5oRjnjde=g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dr Dimitrov,

This is very sad news, although, also sadly, not unanticipated. I need
hardly say that Prof. Hahn's contribution to Indian studies has been
foundational, and his writings will continue to shape our field far into
the indefinite future.  It is so characteristic of his stoicism, energy and
dedication to scholarship that his last message to us here at the INDOLOGY
forum was just a month ago, characteristically announcing a new publication.
*
<http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2014-June/039603.html>

Whenever I communicated with Prof. Hahn, I was always moved by his
directness and reality as a human being.  In conversation, he was willing
to share both indological and personal matters, including his experiences
of matters that caused him great suffering, of which his measure was
greater than most of us are given to endure.

His passing is a deep loss, and my thoughts are with his family and friends.

Dominik Wujastyk




On 13 July 2014 11:48, Dragomir Dimitrov <dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de>
wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> it is with deep regret that I convey to you the sad news of the passing
> away
> of our beloved teacher and good friend Professor Michael Hahn. After a
> prolonged illness this distinguished scholar left us peacefully in the
> evening
> of July 12, 2014. For almost two decades from 1988 till 2006 Professor
> Michael Hahn held the chair of the Department of Indology and Tibetology at
> the University of Marburg, where he fostered many students and contributed
> numerous books and articles. Even to the very last days of his fruitful
> life,
> despite the impediments of his illness, he was always keen to promote
> scholarship and generously shared his vast knowledge. We will all dearly
> miss him. A small memorial service will be held today at 5 p.m. in the St.
> Elisabeth-Hospiz in Marburg. At present arrangements for a funeral service
> at
> his birthplace in Otterndorf are being made.
>
> Kind regards,
> Dragomir Dimitrov
>
>
> ________________________________________
>
>    Dr. phil. Dragomir Dimitrov
>    Indologie und Tibetologie
>    Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
>    Deutschhausstr. 12
>    D-35032 Marburg
>    Germany
>
>    Tel.: +49 6421 28 24640, +49 178 9190340
>    E-mail: dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de
>    http://www.uni-marburg.de/indologie
> ________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info


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From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl  Sun Jul 13 11:43:05 2014
From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 11:43:05 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
Message-ID: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9A1DECD8B@PEXMB001B.vu.local>

It seems to me there is a task for hermeneutics rather than pure philological indology. We are dealing with rather simplistic views of what the Mahabharata and Ramayana (and other puranas as well?) represent. The idea that these texts are historical seems to derive from the rather fundamentalist evangelical christian view of the Bible as containing undiluted historical truth. Hindus since the nineteenth century were confronted with this view propounded by missionaries and as a reaction claimed that their own Sanskrit texts were also historical. In christian hermeneutics and Biblical philology as indeed in theology such simplistic historical views have long been discarded. But apparently not so among some Hindus with regard to epics and the puranas.

Victor van Bijlert



________________________________

Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203


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From hr at ivs.edu  Sun Jul 13 11:49:22 2014
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 07:49:22 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9A1DECD8B@PEXMB001B.vu.local>
Message-ID: <DFE53878-BFB6-4C8A-94FD-7E45B7322173@ivs.edu>

Can we really attribute to modern Christian influence the Hindu belief in Mahabharata and Ramayana as sacred history, apart from the many other meanings of the texts?


On Jul 13, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl> wrote:

> It seems to me there is a task for hermeneutics rather than pure philological indology. We are dealing with rather simplistic views of what the Mahabharata and Ramayana (and other puranas as well?) represent. The idea that these texts are historical seems to derive from the rather fundamentalist evangelical christian view of the Bible as containing undiluted historical truth. Hindus since the nineteenth century were confronted with this view propounded by missionaries and as a reaction claimed that their own Sanskrit texts were also historical. In christian hermeneutics and Biblical philology as indeed in theology such simplistic historical views have long been discarded. But apparently not so among some Hindus with regard to epics and the puranas.
> Victor van Bijlert
>  
> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
> Associate professor Religious Studies
> Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
> Faculty of Theology, VU University
> De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
> v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
> +31613184203
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info



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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 11:54:21 2014
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 17:24:21 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [Indo-Eurasia] Interview with the new ICHR	Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nUX9+s_2G5ZY+L-AjxWMryb-E16CRJfNWpW867KGBZ=Kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qJLznF-zNjb-8FN2LP-u7D53WBHyHto_Hkb4FNWBnej=w@mail.gmail.com>

This is not a new phenomenon. Rao is not the first prominent Indian in
position of power to entertain such ideas.
It is for more than a decade or so that critical historians are on the
defensive. Elements of the Western Indology are partly responsible. Many
obscurantist elements were encouraged during the final decades of the cold
war in the name of research into the true Indian tradition.    The
enlightened tradition that saw its beginning in the 1860s in Bankim Chandra
Chattopadhyay, Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar, R.G. Bhandarkar and others
rapidly waned in the eighties when the cold war was in its peak. The
present correspondent too suffered and was even mocked at for his way of
enquiry by friends in the West who hardly saw the danger. Only an
insignificant percentage of the Western Indologists has cared to sift the
husk fron the grain. As you sow so shall you reap!
Best
DB


On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 12:43 PM, Walter Slaje <slaje at kabelmail.de> wrote:

> ?Indological expertise is in demand,
>
> FYI,
>
> WS
> ?
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Farmer saf at safarmer.com [Indo-Eurasian_research] <
> Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 2014-07-13 8:11 GMT+02:00
> Subject: [Indo-Eurasia] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
> To: Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com
> Cc: Steve Farmer <saf at safarmer.com>
>
>
>
> Revealing interview with Yellapragada Sudershan Rao, Modi's new Chairman
> of the powerful Indian Council of Historical Research (ICHR), in today's
> _Outlook India_:
>
> "Ramayana, Mahabharata Are True Accounts Of The Period...Not Myths"
> http://tinyurl.com/qadhsft
>
> Commentary in the same edition by Anuradha Raman:
> "Ram, Where Art Thou"?
> http://www.outlookindia.com/article/Ram-Where-Art-Thou/291362
>
> Total public silence from Western Indologists so far on Rao's appointment,
> which is curious.
>
> Typical quotation from the interview with Rao, a colleague of NS Rajaram,
> responding to questions from the interviewer:
>
> *You are the author of the Mahabharata project? What is the project about?*
>
> There is a certain view that the Mahabharata or the Ramayana are myths. I
> don?t see them as myths because they were written at a certain point of
> time in history. They are important sources of information in the way we
> write history. What we write today may become an important source of
> information for the fut?ure in the future. When analysed, of course, they
> could be declared to be true or false. History is not static. It belongs to
> the people, it?s made by the people. Similarly, the Ram?ayana is true for
> people...it?s in the collective memory of generations of Indians. We can?t
> say the Ramayana or the Mahabharata are myths. Myths are from a western
> perspective.
>
> *What does that mean?*
>
> For us, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata are true accounts of the periods
> in which they were written.
>
>
> Steve
>
>  __._,_.___
>   ------------------------------
> Posted by: Steve Farmer <saf at safarmer.com>
> ------------------------------
>     Reply via web post
> <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Indo-Eurasian_research/conversations/messages/16742;_ylc=X3oDMTJyY3BhODc3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjIxMzc0BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAxMzU1NgRtc2dJZAMxNjc0MgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE0MDUyMzE5MTQ-?act=reply&messageNum=16742>
> ?  Reply to sender
> <saf at safarmer.com?subject=Re%3A%20Interview%20with%20the%20new%20ICHR%20Chairman>
> ?  Reply to group
> <Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Interview%20with%20the%20new%20ICHR%20Chairman>
> ? Start a New Topic
> <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Indo-Eurasian_research/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZzg1MTlwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjIxMzc0BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAxMzU1NgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE0MDUyMzE5MTQ->
> ? Messages in this topic
> <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Indo-Eurasian_research/conversations/topics/16742;_ylc=X3oDMTM3b2JtNmNsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjIxMzc0BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAxMzU1NgRtc2dJZAMxNjc0MgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE0MDUyMzE5MTQEdHBjSWQDMTY3NDI->
> (1)
> Visit Your Group
> <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Indo-Eurasian_research/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmODk2NDBpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjIxMzc0BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAxMzU1NgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE0MDUyMzE5MTQ->
>
>
>  [image: Yahoo! Groups]
> <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNDJwcTZsBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzE0MjIxMzc0BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAxMzU1NgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTQwNTIzMTkxNA-->
> ? Privacy <https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html> ?
> Unsubscribe
> <Indo-Eurasian_research-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> ? Terms of Use <https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>
>
>    .
>
>  __,_._,___
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
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> http://listinfo.indology.info
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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 11:56:39 2014
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 17:26:39 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn (1941-2014)
In-Reply-To: <53C255F4.16942.2344BA01@dimitrov.staff.uni-marburg.de>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qLcWcmwU_oxVdX9F2NUHUOHNExYyYcFE9f6+R7+TQUAQQ@mail.gmail.com>

Very sad indeed!
DB


On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Dragomir Dimitrov <
dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> it is with deep regret that I convey to you the sad news of the passing
> away
> of our beloved teacher and good friend Professor Michael Hahn. After a
> prolonged illness this distinguished scholar left us peacefully in the
> evening
> of July 12, 2014. For almost two decades from 1988 till 2006 Professor
> Michael Hahn held the chair of the Department of Indology and Tibetology at
> the University of Marburg, where he fostered many students and contributed
> numerous books and articles. Even to the very last days of his fruitful
> life,
> despite the impediments of his illness, he was always keen to promote
> scholarship and generously shared his vast knowledge. We will all dearly
> miss him. A small memorial service will be held today at 5 p.m. in the St.
> Elisabeth-Hospiz in Marburg. At present arrangements for a funeral service
> at
> his birthplace in Otterndorf are being made.
>
> Kind regards,
> Dragomir Dimitrov
>
>
> ________________________________________
>
>    Dr. phil. Dragomir Dimitrov
>    Indologie und Tibetologie
>    Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
>    Deutschhausstr. 12
>    D-35032 Marburg
>    Germany
>
>    Tel.: +49 6421 28 24640, +49 178 9190340
>    E-mail: dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de
>    http://www.uni-marburg.de/indologie
> ________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info


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From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 12:01:55 2014
From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 14:01:55 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [Indo-Eurasia] Interview with the new ICHR	Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CABEB9qJLznF-zNjb-8FN2LP-u7D53WBHyHto_Hkb4FNWBnej=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B2A19883-150B-4681-B9FE-081671776FF6@gmail.com>

In this context the perspective of Prof Romila Thapar might also be interesting. I am copying the links of her recent article below:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/romila-thapar-smriti-irani-old-history-baiters-of-bjp/1/370799.html

Best wishes.

Yours,

Mrinal Kaul


On Jul 13, 2014, at 1:54 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is not a new phenomenon. Rao is not the first prominent Indian in position of power to entertain such ideas.    
> It is for more than a decade or so that critical historians are on the defensive. Elements of the Western Indology are partly responsible. Many obscurantist elements were encouraged during the final decades of the cold war in the name of research into the true Indian tradition.    The enlightened tradition that saw its beginning in the 1860s in Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay, Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar, R.G. Bhandarkar and others rapidly waned in the eighties when the cold war was in its peak. The present correspondent too suffered and was even mocked at for his way of enquiry by friends in the West who hardly saw the danger. Only an insignificant percentage of the Western Indologists has cared to sift the husk fron the grain. As you sow so shall you reap!
> Best
> DB
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 12:43 PM, Walter Slaje <slaje at kabelmail.de> wrote:
> ?Indological expertise is in demand,
> 
> FYI,
> 
> WS
> ?
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Farmer saf at safarmer.com [Indo-Eurasian_research] <Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 2014-07-13 8:11 GMT+02:00
> Subject: [Indo-Eurasia] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
> To: Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com
> Cc: Steve Farmer <saf at safarmer.com>
> 
>  
> Revealing interview with Yellapragada Sudershan Rao, Modi's new Chairman of the powerful Indian Council of Historical Research (ICHR), in today's _Outlook India_:
> 
> "Ramayana, Mahabharata Are True Accounts Of The Period...Not Myths"
> http://tinyurl.com/qadhsft
> 
> Commentary in the same edition by Anuradha Raman:
> "Ram, Where Art Thou"?
> http://www.outlookindia.com/article/Ram-Where-Art-Thou/291362
> 
> Total public silence from Western Indologists so far on Rao's appointment, which is curious.
> 
> Typical quotation from the interview with Rao, a colleague of NS Rajaram, responding to questions from the interviewer:
> 
> 
>> You are the author of the Mahabharata project? What is the project about?
>> 
>> There is a certain view that the Mahabharata or the Ramayana are myths. I don?t see them as myths because they were written at a certain point of time in history. They are important sources of information in the way we write history. What we write today may become an important source of information for the fut?ure in the future. When analysed, of course, they could be declared to be true or false. History is not static. It belongs to the people, it?s made by the people. Similarly, the Ram?ayana is true for people...it?s in the collective memory of generations of Indians. We can?t say the Ramayana or the Mahabharata are myths. Myths are from a western perspective.
>> 
>> What does that mean?
>> 
>> For us, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata are true accounts of the periods in which they were written.
> 
> Steve
> 
> __._,_.___
> Posted by: Steve Farmer <saf at safarmer.com>
> Reply via web post	?	 Reply to sender	?	 Reply to group	?	Start a New Topic	?	Messages in this topic (1)
> VISIT YOUR GROUP
> ? Privacy ? Unsubscribe ? Terms of Use 
> .
>  
> 
> __,_._,___
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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> 
> _______________________________________________
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> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info



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From harshadehejia at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 13 12:18:56 2014
From: harshadehejia at hotmail.com (Harsha Dehejia)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 08:18:56 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hindu Arch
Message-ID: <BLU179-W82F09B434CCE48D1162458A00B0@phx.gbl>

Friends:
Where can I find some information about the Hindu arch in architecture?
Regards.
Harsha
Prof. Harsha V. DehejiaOttawa, ON., Canada.

 		 	   		  


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From e.ciurtin at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 14:11:40 2014
From: e.ciurtin at gmail.com (Eugen Ciurtin)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 17:11:40 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn (1941-2014)
In-Reply-To: <53C255F4.16942.2344BA01@dimitrov.staff.uni-marburg.de>
Message-ID: <CAAeSjSLoiTuq9ns0S=mcKHAvnxpGEsboUGf-64E0cxxBe3YN8g@mail.gmail.com>

Very sad news. Please accept my condolences.



Please announce H-Buddhism list too, as his readers for many decades
consisted perhaps mostly of Buddhist scholars, irrespective of country and
language. His oeuvre is another reason in South Asian studies, perhaps
worth mentioning it already, to learn German in order to benefit from his
manifold contributions and discoveries. I do hope his grand love for German
music, including playing, comforted him during his last years, as may
comfort his wife and many direct disciples. R.I.P.

E.Ciurtin


2014-07-13 12:48 GMT+03:00 Dragomir Dimitrov <dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de>
:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> it is with deep regret that I convey to you the sad news of the passing
> away
> of our beloved teacher and good friend Professor Michael Hahn. After a
> prolonged illness this distinguished scholar left us peacefully in the
> evening
> of July 12, 2014. For almost two decades from 1988 till 2006 Professor
> Michael Hahn held the chair of the Department of Indology and Tibetology at
> the University of Marburg, where he fostered many students and contributed
> numerous books and articles. Even to the very last days of his fruitful
> life,
> despite the impediments of his illness, he was always keen to promote
> scholarship and generously shared his vast knowledge. We will all dearly
> miss him. A small memorial service will be held today at 5 p.m. in the St.
> Elisabeth-Hospiz in Marburg. At present arrangements for a funeral service
> at
> his birthplace in Otterndorf are being made.
>
> Kind regards,
> Dragomir Dimitrov
>
>
> ________________________________________
>
>    Dr. phil. Dragomir Dimitrov
>    Indologie und Tibetologie
>    Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
>    Deutschhausstr. 12
>    D-35032 Marburg
>    Germany
>
>    Tel.: +49 6421 28 24640, +49 178 9190340
>    E-mail: dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de
>    http://www.uni-marburg.de/indologie
> ________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info




-- 
Dr E. Ciurtin
Secretary of the Romanian Association for the History of Religions

Publications Officer of the European Association for the Study of Religions
www.easr.eu

Lecturer & Secretary of the Scientific Council
Institute for the History of Religions, Romanian Academy
Calea 13 Septembrie no. 13 sect. 5, Bucharest 050711
Phone: 00 40 733 951 953


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From isabelle.ratie at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 14:32:09 2014
From: isabelle.ratie at gmail.com (Isabelle Ratie)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 16:32:09 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeTuqSTMNNhB4KAUzxSTJgbyS1ox71H_nfxoBxSyBJx8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFkKBauP1Gdewe3DpyXGs_-UFEXr3yUUQ-Xi_9gmpxf0bZhcA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Christopher,

The passage in IPVV, vol. III, p. 348 is as difficult (to me at least)
as it is interesting. Needless to say I don't claim to understand it
better than you or any of the other learned scholars involved in this
discussion, all the more since I am utterly ignorant of Indian
alchemy. I would simply like to make a few additional remarks, hoping
that they won't end up making things more obscure than they already
are!

1. As regards the first part of the analogy: Abhinavagupta also uses
the image of mercury transforming copper into gold in Tantraaloka
5.151 (note the use of vedhita by the way): svaya.mbhaasaatmanaanena
taadaatmya? yaaty ananyadhii.h / "sivena hemataa.m yadvat taamra.m
suutena vedhitam // (Cf. also TA 14.12). See also e.g. Yogaraaja ad
Paramaarthasaara 96, p. 186: yathaa taamradravya.m siddharasapaataat
suvar.niibhavati... I'm afraid these passages don't shed much light on
the problems that you are trying to solve - still, maybe it is worth
looking for other passages of this sort that could be more detailed?

2. I would consider with much caution the suggestion that
tannijaruupasamyagviddhakanakaruupataa is a marginal annotation that
crept in the text of the KSTS edition, and this because (not to
mention that marginal annotations are much more rare in IPVV
manuscripts than in IPV manuscripts, and understandably so given the
length of the IPVV) the IPVV comments on the lost text of the Viv.rti,
so that there is much in the IPVV that does not make sense to us
simply because we don't have the muula-text (compare for instance IPVV
ad IPK 1.3.6 to 1.5.3 with the Viv.rti fragments now at our disposal
thanks to Raffaele Torella's editions...So much that sounded like
gibberish before makes sense now!). It is true that tannijaruupa- for
instance rings like a mere gloss of some tatsvaruupa- ending compound;
but then again it is likely that here Abhinavagupta is simply
explaining the analogy as he found it in the Viv.rti.

3. I understand why you want piitalataa to mean "gold leaf", although
I must confess that just as Raffaele Torella and Ashok Aklujkar, my
first reaction was to think "brassness". I see why you want to
understand it in this way: you need gold here rather than brass,
especially given the passage that you brought to the list's attention
in the first place, which is clearly about gold being dissolved by
mercury. But I don't know if lataa can have this meaning, and in the
context of this analogy we would rather expect a word matching
idantaa, i.e. with an abstract suffix. Would it be possible to
understand piitalataa as we would understand piitataa, i.e. as
"goldness" (given that piita means both "yellow" and "gold", and that
piitala also means yellow/yellow substance)? I'm afraid that piitala
only designates brass but I have no certainty in this regard. Wouldn't
you contemplate a tentative emendation into piitataa then? In any case
the compound that you see as spurious could actually serve your
overall interpretation. Abhinavagupta could mean that in the
turyaatiita state of consciousness even the remnants of objectivity
(in the form of residual traces) are dissolved/liquefied and immersed
into the pure "I", just as mercury liquefies the goldness
(piitalataa/piitataa) that remains (it seems to me that ava"se.sa
rather goes with piitalataa/piitataa) due to the force of residual
traces, by bringing it into a full "jara.na" (maturation, or whatever
this technical term really means) where this goldness (this time
kanakaruupataa) is entirely pervaded by the own form of this
(tannijaruupa) - that is, by the own form of mercury.

Does this sound awfully far-fetched? I don't know - once more I have
no certainty whatsoever as regards the meaning of this passage, and I
can only say that you are brave to tackle it!

All best wishes,

Isabelle

-- 
Dr. Isabelle Rati?
Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Apostelgasse 23, 1030 Vienna, Austria



2014-07-13 11:48 GMT+02:00 Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>:

> ?Just on the pitta/p?ta issue, these are, from the point of view of
> historical phonology, alternants of the same word meaning "yellow" (cf. law
> of morae; Mayrhofer). Bile, pitta, in Indian medicine, was "[yellow, p?ta]
> bile."  The word p?ta occurs very frequently in ayurvedic sentences in
> close collocation with the word pitta (e.g., see this listing of
> collocations
> <http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/search3t?dbname=indologica&word=.*pitt.*+.*p%C4%ABt.*&OUTPUT=conc&CONJUNCT=PROXY&DISTANCE=5&title=&author=>).
> So I think this semantic connection was alive in the minds of ayurvedic
> authors.  This deserves proper study.
>
> India did not evolve the concept of "black bile" (Gk. melancholia) that
> evolved in Hippocratic medicine.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl  Sun Jul 13 15:16:33 2014
From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 15:16:33 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <1405257394.21964.YahooMailNeo@web125304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9A1DECE1A@PEXMB001B.vu.local>

[https://webmail.login.vu.nl/OWA/14.3.174.1/themes/base/pgrs-sm.gif] Below is the context of the discussion:



[X][X]
Mrinal Kaul
In this context the perspective of Prof Romila Thapar might also be interesting. I am copying the links of her recent article below: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/romila-thapar-smriti-irani-old-history-baiters-of-bjp/1/370799.html Best wishes. Yours, Mrinal
[X]
2:02 PM
[X][X]
INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Mrinal Kaul [mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com]
[X][X][X]
[X]
Actions[X]
To:
M
Dipak Bhattacharya ?[dipak.d2004 at gmail.com]?
Cc:
M
Indology List ?[indology at list.indology.info]??; Informationsaustausch der deutschsprachigen Indologie ?[INDOLOGIE at listserv.uni-heidelberg.de]?
Attachments:
[X]ATT00001.txt? (194 B?)<https://webmail.login.vu.nl/OWA/#>

Sunday, July 13, 2014 2:02 PM
[X]             [X]     [X]
In this context the perspective of Prof Romila Thapar might also be interesting. I am copying the links of her recent article below:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/romila-thapar-smriti-irani-old-history-baiters-of-bjp/1/370799.html

Best wishes.

Yours,

Mrinal Kaul
[X][https://webmail.login.vu.nl/OWA/14.3.174.1/themes/base/pgrs-sm.gif]
[X][X]
Dipak Bhattacharya
This is not a new phenomenon. Rao is not the first prominent Indian in position of power to entertain such ideas. It is for more than a decade or so that critical historians are on the defensive. Elements of the Western Indology are partly responsible. Many
[X]
1:55 PM
[X][X]
INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Dipak Bhattacharya [dipak.d2004 at gmail.com]
[X][X][X]
[X]
Actions[X]
To:
M
Walter Slaje ?[slaje at kabelmail.de]?
Cc:
M
indology at list.indology.info?; Informationsaustausch der deutschsprachigen Indologie ?[INDOLOGIE at listserv.uni-heidelberg.de]?
Attachments:
[X]ATT00001.txt? (194 B?)<https://webmail.login.vu.nl/OWA/#>

Sunday, July 13, 2014 1:55 PM
[X]             [X]     [X]

To help protect your privacy, some content in this message has been blocked. If you're sure this message is from a trusted sender and you want to re-enable the blocked features, click here.<https://webmail.login.vu.nl/OWA/#>
This is not a new phenomenon. Rao is not the first prominent Indian in position of power to entertain such ideas.
It is for more than a decade or so that critical historians are on the defensive. Elements of the Western Indology are partly responsible. Many obscurantist elements were encouraged during the final decades of the cold war in the name of research into the true Indian tradition.    The enlightened tradition that saw its beginning in the 1860s in Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay, Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar, R.G. Bhandarkar and others rapidly waned in the eighties when the cold war was in its peak. The present correspondent too suffered and was even mocked at for his way of enquiry by friends in the West who hardly saw the danger. Only an insignificant percentage of the Western Indologists has cared to sift the husk fron the grain. As you sow so shall you reap!
Best
DB


On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 12:43 PM, Walter Slaje <slaje at kabelmail.de<mailto:slaje at kabelmail.de>> wrote:
?Indological expertise is in demand,

FYI,

WS
?
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Steve Farmer saf at safarmer.com<mailto:saf at safarmer.com> [Indo-Eurasian_research] <Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com<mailto:Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com>>
Date: 2014-07-13 8:11 GMT+02:00
Subject: [Indo-Eurasia] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
To: Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com<mailto:Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com>
Cc: Steve Farmer <saf at safarmer.com<mailto:saf at safarmer.com>>


Revealing interview with Yellapragada Sudershan Rao, Modi's new Chairman of the powerful Indian Council of Historical Research (ICHR), in today's _Outlook India_:

"Ramayana, Mahabharata Are True Accounts Of The Period...Not Myths"
http://tinyurl.com/qadhsft

Commentary in the same edition by Anuradha Raman:
"Ram, Where Art Thou"?
http://www.outlookindia.com/article/Ram-Where-Art-Thou/291362

Total public silence from Western Indologists so far on Rao's appointment, which is curious.

Typical quotation from the interview with Rao, a colleague of NS Rajaram, responding to questions from the interviewer:

You are the author of the Mahabharata project? What is the project about?

There is a certain view that the Mahabharata or the Ramayana are myths. I don?t see them as myths because they were written at a certain point of time in history. They are important sources of information in the way we write history. What we write today may become an important source of information for the fut?ure in the future. When analysed, of course, they could be declared to be true or false. History is not static. It belongs to the people, it?s made by the people. Similarly, the Ram?ayana is true for people...it?s in the collective memory of generations of Indians. We can?t say the Ramayana or the Mahabharata are myths. Myths are from a western perspective.

What does that mean?

For us, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata are true accounts of the periods in which they were written.

Steve

__._,_.___

________________________________
Posted by: Steve Farmer <saf at safarmer.com<mailto:saf at safarmer.com>>





________________________________

From: Dean Michael Anderson [eastwestcultural at yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 3:16 PM
To: Bijlert, V.A. van
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman

Interesting points. Was this somehow in the context of an interview that I missed?

Best,

Dean

Dr Dean Anderson
East West Cultural Institute


________________________________
From: "Bijlert, V.A. van" <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
To: "indology at list.indology.info" <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:13 PM
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman

It seems to me there is a task for hermeneutics rather than pure philological indology. We are dealing with rather simplistic views of what the Mahabharata and Ramayana (and other puranas as well?) represent. The idea that these texts are historical seems to derive from the rather fundamentalist evangelical christian view of the Bible as containing undiluted historical truth. Hindus since the nineteenth century were confronted with this view propounded by missionaries and as a reaction claimed that their own Sanskrit texts were also historical. In christian hermeneutics and Biblical philology as indeed in theology such simplistic historical views have long been discarded. But apparently not so among some Hindus with regard to epics and the puranas.
Victor van Bijlert

________________________________
Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/>



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From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl  Sun Jul 13 15:22:28 2014
From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 15:22:28 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <DFE53878-BFB6-4C8A-94FD-7E45B7322173@ivs.edu>
Message-ID: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9A1DECE2B@PEXMB001B.vu.local>

Do you know of any other source in the nineteenth and early twentieth century that Hindu propagandists could have used? Is there any early pre-modern or even pre-islamic discussion in Indian thought about the Mahabharata and Ramayana as accurate depictions of historical facts?


________________________________

Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203
________________________________
From: Howard Resnick [hr at ivs.edu]
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 1:49 PM
To: Bijlert, V.A. van
Cc: Indology List
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman

Can we really attribute to modern Christian influence the Hindu belief in Mahabharata and Ramayana as sacred history, apart from the many other meanings of the texts?


On Jul 13, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>> wrote:

It seems to me there is a task for hermeneutics rather than pure philological indology. We are dealing with rather simplistic views of what the Mahabharata and Ramayana (and other puranas as well?) represent. The idea that these texts are historical seems to derive from the rather fundamentalist evangelical christian view of the Bible as containing undiluted historical truth. Hindus since the nineteenth century were confronted with this view propounded by missionaries and as a reaction claimed that their own Sanskrit texts were also historical. In christian hermeneutics and Biblical philology as indeed in theology such simplistic historical views have long been discarded. But apparently not so among some Hindus with regard to epics and the puranas.
Victor van Bijlert



________________________________

Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/>



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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Jul 13 15:28:20 2014
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 11:28:20 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9A1DECE2B@PEXMB001B.vu.local>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcuWE_us=P-t84AejJunJLvjRQQmJ-2pkDq-MEfoPJ9Bg@mail.gmail.com>

While there was no historical awareness in pre-modern India in the modern
sense of history, many genealogies of medieval kings (including the
Bhosales of Maharashtra) begin with the coronation of Yudhishthira, and so
they are treating the epic and puranic lists as historical in their own
understanding of history.

Madhav Deshpande


On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
wrote:

>  Do you know of any other source in the nineteenth and early twentieth
> century that Hindu propagandists could have used? Is there any early
> pre-modern or even pre-islamic discussion in Indian thought about the
> Mahabharata and Ramayana as accurate depictions of historical facts?
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
>
> Associate professor Religious Studies
>
> Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
>
> Faculty of Theology, VU University
>
> De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
>
> v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
>
> +31613184203
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* Howard Resnick [hr at ivs.edu]
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 13, 2014 1:49 PM
> *To:* Bijlert, V.A. van
> *Cc:* Indology List
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
>
>  Can we really attribute to modern Christian influence the Hindu belief
> in Mahabharata and Ramayana as sacred history, apart from the many other
> meanings of the texts?
>
>
>  On Jul 13, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
> wrote:
>
>   It seems to me there is a task for hermeneutics rather than pure
> philological indology. We are dealing with rather simplistic views of what
> the Mahabharata and Ramayana (and other puranas as well?) represent. The
> idea that these texts are historical seems to derive from the rather
> fundamentalist evangelical christian view of the Bible as containing
> undiluted historical truth. Hindus since the nineteenth century were
> confronted with this view propounded by missionaries and as a reaction
> claimed that their own Sanskrit texts were also historical. In christian
> hermeneutics and Biblical philology as indeed in theology such simplistic
> historical views have long been discarded. But apparently not so among some
> Hindus with regard to epics and the puranas.
> Victor van Bijlert
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
>  Associate professor Religious Studies
>  Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
>  Faculty of Theology, VU University
>  De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
>  v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
>  +31613184203
>  _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl  Sun Jul 13 15:36:15 2014
From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 15:36:15 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzcuWE_us=P-t84AejJunJLvjRQQmJ-2pkDq-MEfoPJ9Bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9A1DECE41@PEXMB001B.vu.local>

That is very interesting. But does this mean that the whole text of the Valmiki Ramayana or the Mahabharata should be treated as a more or less faithful representation of facts. Is that the main function of the epics? I do not question the idea that the epics constitute some kind of meaningful sacred narrative with some historically accurate details worked into it. The same is true of the Old Testament. But can one use the Mahabharata and the Ramayana to 'rewrite' the history of ancient India in such a way that the latter is 'purged' of western influences. I think this is the burden of the initial part of this discussion. My contribution to it was to point out that the epics stand in need of more refined hermeneutics, in order to avoid rewritings of ancient Indian history.
Yours truly
Victor van Bijlert


________________________________

Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203
________________________________
From: Madhav Deshpande [mmdesh at umich.edu]
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:28 PM
To: Bijlert, V.A. van
Cc: Howard Resnick; Indology
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman

While there was no historical awareness in pre-modern India in the modern sense of history, many genealogies of medieval kings (including the Bhosales of Maharashtra) begin with the coronation of Yudhishthira, and so they are treating the epic and puranic lists as historical in their own understanding of history.

Madhav Deshpande


On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>> wrote:
Do you know of any other source in the nineteenth and early twentieth century that Hindu propagandists could have used? Is there any early pre-modern or even pre-islamic discussion in Indian thought about the Mahabharata and Ramayana as accurate depictions of historical facts?


________________________________

Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203<tel:%2B31613184203>
________________________________
From: Howard Resnick [hr at ivs.edu<mailto:hr at ivs.edu>]
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 1:49 PM
To: Bijlert, V.A. van
Cc: Indology List
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman

Can we really attribute to modern Christian influence the Hindu belief in Mahabharata and Ramayana as sacred history, apart from the many other meanings of the texts?


On Jul 13, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>> wrote:

It seems to me there is a task for hermeneutics rather than pure philological indology. We are dealing with rather simplistic views of what the Mahabharata and Ramayana (and other puranas as well?) represent. The idea that these texts are historical seems to derive from the rather fundamentalist evangelical christian view of the Bible as containing undiluted historical truth. Hindus since the nineteenth century were confronted with this view propounded by missionaries and as a reaction claimed that their own Sanskrit texts were also historical. In christian hermeneutics and Biblical philology as indeed in theology such simplistic historical views have long been discarded. But apparently not so among some Hindus with regard to epics and the puranas.
Victor van Bijlert



________________________________

Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203<tel:%2B31613184203>
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/>


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
http://listinfo.indology.info



--
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From hr at ivs.edu  Sun Jul 13 15:43:57 2014
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 11:43:57 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9A1DECE2B@PEXMB001B.vu.local>
Message-ID: <DB0F2B4A-3C45-490F-8371-C00DF63D0B51@ivs.edu>

I agree with you on the source of 19th and 20th century influences on Hindu propagandists and their theories of shastric historicity. Prior to this, faithful Vaishnavas, for example, did not have ?scientific? historiography on their radar as they do in modern times. Thus the notion that itihasa is indeed history developed in other ways in pre-modern times. 

I will cite merely one example, Madhva?s Mahabharata-tatparya-nirnaya (13c), in which he states (2.3-4) that the Mahabharata text available to him is rife with corruption ? interpolations, extrapolations, and transpositions of text. Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all its supernatural abundance.

Best,
Howard

On Jul 13, 2014, at 11:22 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl> wrote:

> Do you know of any other source in the nineteenth and early twentieth century that Hindu propagandists could have used? Is there any early pre-modern or even pre-islamic discussion in Indian thought about the Mahabharata and Ramayana as accurate depictions of historical facts?
> 
> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
> Associate professor Religious Studies
> Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
> Faculty of Theology, VU University
> De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
> v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
> +31613184203
> From: Howard Resnick [hr at ivs.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 1:49 PM
> To: Bijlert, V.A. van
> Cc: Indology List
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
> 
> Can we really attribute to modern Christian influence the Hindu belief in Mahabharata and Ramayana as sacred history, apart from the many other meanings of the texts?
> 
> 
> On Jul 13, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl> wrote:
> 
>> It seems to me there is a task for hermeneutics rather than pure philological indology. We are dealing with rather simplistic views of what the Mahabharata and Ramayana (and other puranas as well?) represent. The idea that these texts are historical seems to derive from the rather fundamentalist evangelical christian view of the Bible as containing undiluted historical truth. Hindus since the nineteenth century were confronted with this view propounded by missionaries and as a reaction claimed that their own Sanskrit texts were also historical. In christian hermeneutics and Biblical philology as indeed in theology such simplistic historical views have long been discarded. But apparently not so among some Hindus with regard to epics and the puranas.
>> Victor van Bijlert
>>  
>> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
>> Associate professor Religious Studies
>> Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
>> Faculty of Theology, VU University
>> De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
>> v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
>> +31613184203
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info



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From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 15:50:01 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 08:50:01 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <59FCBC7C-0BF7-4684-B7ED-76DFC2B2D8CE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN9GsQ_0v=PhndrH1isiLxcibePg5G-OU7X5LyMacNPAWQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dr Aklujkar,
I hope you'll forgive me for correcting a small misunderstanding:  I meant
"gold leaf" in the established English sense of "a very thin sheet of
gold", not as the kind of leaf equivalent to *patra.  *But as I mentioned,
I would have to find an attestation of it elsewhere in this meaning, which
I think is beyond the scope of my project right now since I don't know
rasa??stra.

thanks for all your contributions!



On 12 July 2014 21:50, Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Christopher,
>
> Yes. You are right. It should be piita, not pitta. But what I consider to
> be a more likely meaning of the word would not change, because
> piitala/pittala continues to exist in slightly different forms in modern
> Indo-Aryan languages in the sense  'brass'. So does taamra in forms such as
> taamba/taambaa. Furthermore, if the idea ' leaf" were to be conveyed, a Skt
> author would have naturally thought of words such as suvar.na-patra or
> kanaka-patra. They indeed are used in modern Indian languages as they are
> or in slightly different forms.
>
> You write: >it is not wild speculation to suppose that in the sphere of
> more popular discourse, uneducated as most were in the details of alchemy,
> the idea circulated that alchemists magically transmuted base metal into
> gold using rasa, and thus the word *vedha *used in a non-technical sense
> would mean "transmute", even if technically speaking it is in error.<
>
> Researchers are frequently tempted to rationalize as they feel a need to
> reconcile different strands of evidence. Sometimes it is also useful to
> mention possibilities of reconciliation for the benefit of future research.
> However, rationalization should not be allowed to take the place of reason
> or evidence.
>
> Your write further: >I see evidence for this hypothesis in BCA 1.10<.
>
> You will be justified in seeing the Bodhi-caryaavataara verse this way
> only if the Tibetan cited by Prof. Kapstein ("It is the finest transformer
> because it causes very great transformation") is an explanation of only
> vedhaniiyam or atiiva vedhaniiyam and not a capturing of the import of the
> whole of 'rasa-raajam atiiva vedhaniiyam. As it stands, the Tibetan seems
> to be doing the  latter with focus on rasa-raaja.
>
> Now I must indeed return to my other 'time-is-of the-essence' kind of
> commitments.
>
> a.a.
>


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From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl  Sun Jul 13 16:12:34 2014
From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 16:12:34 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <DB0F2B4A-3C45-490F-8371-C00DF63D0B51@ivs.edu>
Message-ID: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9A1DECE6D@PEXMB001B.vu.local>

This is very fascinating. But may I play the advocate of the devil and suggest that Madhva who lived in the 12-13th century CE (AD) could have been influenced by both Islam and Nestorian christianity, or perhaps knew about them and reacted in the way some nineteenth century Hindu apologists reacted? Besides, without more details as to how and what exactly Madhva wrote, I cannot form a definite opinion. I also do not believe ancient Indians did not have any notion of factual history. I do believe that the texts that are called itihasa may never have been meant to provide factual history, quite like the Thorah and the prophetic books in the Tanakh were not meant to provide accurate literal history. Even many of the New Testamental miracles and stories are now regarded as not historical accounts but as enacted parables (signs in the language of the gospel of John).

In this context I would argue for more, serious and politically unbiased religious studies in Hinduism (backed up by philological indology), Hindu theology and Hindu exegesis of texts. I do not think, Hindus are well served when the sacred Sanskrit narratives are flattened down to some sort of early twentieth century Hindu Pentecostal literalism.

Victor van Bijlert



________________________________

Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203
________________________________
From: Howard Resnick [hr at ivs.edu]
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:43 PM
To: Bijlert, V.A. van
Cc: Indology List
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman

I agree with you on the source of 19th and 20th century influences on Hindu propagandists and their theories of shastric historicity. Prior to this, faithful Vaishnavas, for example, did not have ?scientific? historiography on their radar as they do in modern times. Thus the notion that itihasa is indeed history developed in other ways in pre-modern times.

I will cite merely one example, Madhva?s Mahabharata-tatparya-nirnaya (13c), in which he states (2.3-4) that the Mahabharata text available to him is rife with corruption ? interpolations, extrapolations, and transpositions of text. Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all its supernatural abundance.

Best,
Howard

On Jul 13, 2014, at 11:22 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>> wrote:

Do you know of any other source in the nineteenth and early twentieth century that Hindu propagandists could have used? Is there any early pre-modern or even pre-islamic discussion in Indian thought about the Mahabharata and Ramayana as accurate depictions of historical facts?


________________________________

Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203
________________________________
From: Howard Resnick [hr at ivs.edu<mailto:hr at ivs.edu>]
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 1:49 PM
To: Bijlert, V.A. van
Cc: Indology List
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman

Can we really attribute to modern Christian influence the Hindu belief in Mahabharata and Ramayana as sacred history, apart from the many other meanings of the texts?


On Jul 13, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>> wrote:

It seems to me there is a task for hermeneutics rather than pure philological indology. We are dealing with rather simplistic views of what the Mahabharata and Ramayana (and other puranas as well?) represent. The idea that these texts are historical seems to derive from the rather fundamentalist evangelical christian view of the Bible as containing undiluted historical truth. Hindus since the nineteenth century were confronted with this view propounded by missionaries and as a reaction claimed that their own Sanskrit texts were also historical. In christian hermeneutics and Biblical philology as indeed in theology such simplistic historical views have long been discarded. But apparently not so among some Hindus with regard to epics and the puranas.
Victor van Bijlert



________________________________

Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
Associate professor Religious Studies
Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
Faculty of Theology, VU University
De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl<mailto:v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
+31613184203
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/>



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From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 17:11:27 2014
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 19:11:27 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vedic family recitation traditions
In-Reply-To: <CAPb4bMh5p_N3k0gXZ9JS4hEwyyeetvw60YGn+VFLG0089Hg14A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKA8X401Xu8R2sZdcXj5OmNdQ5-TH3-LvTEF5xRUG4-wEpPWHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Many thanks to George Thompson, Fran?ois Voegeli, Tim Cahill, Daniel
Stender and Borayin Larios for your helpful replies and great references.

I will be writing back to you individually over the next few weeks to
follow up -- (under some deadlines at the moment).

What an excellent group on this Indology list!


On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 1:37 PM, (Maitreya) Borayin Larios <
shrimaitreya at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear James Hartzell and dear list members,
>
> In addition to the great contributions from Finn, Nagaraj and others in
> the list to the topic of Vedic recitation traditions, I would also like to
> draw your attention to my own work dealing with contemporary Vedic
> recitation and Vedic schools from the state of Maharashtra.
>
> My dissertation entitled: "Embodying Sacred Sound. The transmission of
> knowledge in traditional Vedic schools of contemporary Maharashtra" which
> was submitted last year here at the Heidelberg University should be
> published online later this year.
>
> Some of my articles are also available for download on Academia.edu (
> https://uni-heidelberg.academia.edu/BorayinLarios), and although they do
> not all deal exclusively with Vedic recitation, they do deal with issues
> that affect these traditions.
>
> In addition, I would like to share a short film (about 15 min) that I
> edited to illustrate a typical day in a Vedic school in Satara Maharashtra.
> It is available on youtube through this link:
>
> http://youtu.be/ALEHkgOx8EE
>
> Some colleagues have found it a useful resource to teach in their
> introductory classes on Hinduism. I hope that you will find it useful too.
> Finally, here are also some photographs of Vedap??hakas from my fieldwork
> in case you are interested:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/kgdrj9a
>
> @Finn: for your online bilbliography I am sure you will find other works
> in the bibliography of my dissertation, If you want we can collaborate on
> this, I would be very interested to help you out.
>
> Please excuse this self-promotional email, but I am eager to share my work
> with the few people who can be potentially interested in what I do.
>
> Best,
> Borayin Larios
>
> ______________________________
> Borayin Larios
> J?gerpfad 13
> 69118 Heidelberg
> Germany
> Mobile: (+49)17672329143
> Home:  (+49)62211379228
> https://uni-heidelberg.academia.edu/BorayinLarios
> http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/mitarbeiter/larios
>
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I shall send some contacts which will be helpful in this regard.
>>
>>
>> Dr.RVSS Avadhanulu did a recording of several Vedic recitations. He has a
>> website:
>>
>>
>>
>>  http://www.shrivedabharathi.in/dravadhanulu.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Vamshi Krishna Ghanapathi did his PhD on Vedic recitations
>>
>>
>>
>> his email: vkghanapathi at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr. Subroto Roy does research on Vedic recitation :
>>
>>
>>
>> subrotor at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Sri Vidyashankar Sundareshanji from Shringeri Math:
>>
>>
>>
>> svidyasankar at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Nagaraj
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>> Hyderabad-500044
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
James Hartzell, PhD
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
The University of Trento, Italy


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From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 17:22:18 2014
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 19:22:18 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vedic family recitation traditions
In-Reply-To: <CAKA8X43fG2eqg=h4XkGTRrFJp=6G1Tn3ieNayGVwOLiGAfRdKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKA8X42iyB7f5KtOa-QaXgb6WqSr-cDjhY-f5O=4W=1AKXPmPw@mail.gmail.com>

and thanks to to Nagaraj Paturi  and  Finnian Moore Gerety!


On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 7:18 PM, James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>
wrote:

> and thanks to Nagaraj Paturi
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 7:11 PM, James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Many thanks to George Thompson, Fran?ois Voegeli, Tim Cahill, Daniel
>> Stender and Borayin Larios for your helpful replies and great references.
>>
>> I will be writing back to you individually over the next few weeks to
>> follow up -- (under some deadlines at the moment).
>>
>> What an excellent group on this Indology list!
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 1:37 PM, (Maitreya) Borayin Larios <
>> shrimaitreya at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear James Hartzell and dear list members,
>>>
>>> In addition to the great contributions from Finn, Nagaraj and others in
>>> the list to the topic of Vedic recitation traditions, I would also like to
>>> draw your attention to my own work dealing with contemporary Vedic
>>> recitation and Vedic schools from the state of Maharashtra.
>>>
>>> My dissertation entitled: "Embodying Sacred Sound. The transmission of
>>> knowledge in traditional Vedic schools of contemporary Maharashtra" which
>>> was submitted last year here at the Heidelberg University should be
>>> published online later this year.
>>>
>>> Some of my articles are also available for download on Academia.edu (
>>> https://uni-heidelberg.academia.edu/BorayinLarios), and although they
>>> do not all deal exclusively with Vedic recitation, they do deal with issues
>>> that affect these traditions.
>>>
>>> In addition, I would like to share a short film (about 15 min) that I
>>> edited to illustrate a typical day in a Vedic school in Satara Maharashtra.
>>> It is available on youtube through this link:
>>>
>>> http://youtu.be/ALEHkgOx8EE
>>>
>>> Some colleagues have found it a useful resource to teach in their
>>> introductory classes on Hinduism. I hope that you will find it useful too.
>>> Finally, here are also some photographs of Vedap??hakas from my fieldwork
>>> in case you are interested:
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/kgdrj9a
>>>
>>> @Finn: for your online bilbliography I am sure you will find other works
>>> in the bibliography of my dissertation, If you want we can collaborate on
>>> this, I would be very interested to help you out.
>>>
>>> Please excuse this self-promotional email, but I am eager to share my
>>> work with the few people who can be potentially interested in what I do.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Borayin Larios
>>>
>>> ______________________________
>>> Borayin Larios
>>> J?gerpfad 13
>>> 69118 Heidelberg
>>> Germany
>>> Mobile: (+49)17672329143
>>> Home:  (+49)62211379228
>>> https://uni-heidelberg.academia.edu/BorayinLarios
>>> http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/mitarbeiter/larios
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I shall send some contacts which will be helpful in this regard.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dr.RVSS Avadhanulu did a recording of several Vedic recitations. He has
>>>> a website:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  http://www.shrivedabharathi.in/dravadhanulu.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dr Vamshi Krishna Ghanapathi did his PhD on Vedic recitations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> his email: vkghanapathi at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Subroto Roy does research on Vedic recitation :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> subrotor at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sri Vidyashankar Sundareshanji from Shringeri Math:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> svidyasankar at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nagaraj
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>>>> Hyderabad-500044
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> James Hartzell, PhD
>> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
>> The University of Trento, Italy
>>
>
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
> The University of Trento, Italy
>



-- 
James Hartzell, PhD
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
The University of Trento, Italy


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From dominic.goodall at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 17:42:28 2014
From: dominic.goodall at gmail.com (Dominic Goodall)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 18:42:28 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CANFkKBauP1Gdewe3DpyXGs_-UFEXr3yUUQ-Xi_9gmpxf0bZhcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47FB61E7-EDCE-49DB-B4F2-57EBAA8BCCD9@gmail.com>

About the rasa-viddha-t?mra-kanaka-ny?ya, 

for what it's worth, the irreversible transformation into gold of copper that is described as rasaviddha is indeed an image found in a number of old tantric sources, starting perhaps with the Sarvaj??nottaratantra. Such gold, it is claimed, can never be transformed back into copper, just as recidivism from the state of ?iva-hood is impossible for the soul who has undergone initiation.

The maxim is typically formulated in this way (with some variants here and there, notably for the first word !):

rasaviddha? yath? t?mra? hematva? pratipadyate|
tath?tm? j??nasambandh?t ?ivatva? pratipadyate||

A number of passages are cited in footnote 904 of the translation of the Par?khyatantra (on verse 15.59).

In this stock formulation, by the way, nothing absolutely precludes the translation "penetrated"; but note that rasaviddha appears to be used in the Artha??stra (2.13.3) as the name for a type of gold (not as a qualification for copper), which is arguably evidence of a (rather old) semantic shift for the element -viddha in this context. 

Dominic Goodall


On 13-Jul-2014, at 3:32 PM, Isabelle Ratie wrote:

> 1. As regards the first part of the analogy: Abhinavagupta also uses the image of mercury transforming copper into gold in Tantraaloka 5.151 (note the use of vedhita by the way): svaya.mbhaasaatmanaanena taadaatmya? yaaty ananyadhii.h / "sivena hemataa.m yadvat taamra.m suutena vedhitam // (Cf. also TA 14.12). See also e.g. Yogaraaja ad Paramaarthasaara 96, p. 186: yathaa taamradravya.m siddharasapaataat suvar.niibhavati... I'm afraid these passages don't shed much light on the problems that you are trying to solve - still, maybe it is worth looking for other passages of this sort that could be more detailed?





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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 18:09:12 2014
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 23:39:12 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eaLDYvCRcF_SB76FR_-QmRoBRRCU5H7s9FSG32+S_gM6w@mail.gmail.com>

"Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all its
supernatural abundance"


-Howard Resnick

This is really interesting. May I know the exact words used by Sri
Madhvacharya with the meaning 'real history' ? That citation will help in
tracing the history of the notion of 'real history' among pre-modern Indian
writers.

Regards,

Nagaraj



-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 18:30:24 2014
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 14 00:00:24 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9A1DECE6D@PEXMB001B.vu.local>
Message-ID: <CABEB9q+ZWFSHVG6u2ZwTT3SvJbCw7uQ758XYGCj_x2C_XzAaGg@mail.gmail.com>

The question of Christian influence on the nineteenth century reformist
thought has been raised but there are some misconceptions about it.

There was not much of Christian influence on the reformist movement since
about 1850. In Bengal the Brahmo religous leader Keshub Chandra Sen sang to
the glory of the Christ but he was forsaken by mainstream Brahmos. Keshab
Candra was pragmatic. He wanted to remove possible obstacles to his own
missionary work. But Debendranath Tagore was against him. The main reformer
of Bengal, Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar, was an atheist. The Brahmo priest
Shivnath Shastri has narrated how Vidyasagar ridiculed a Christian
missionary who had come to covert him. The revolutionary Brahmabandhab
Upadhyay was Christian but he called himself 'Hindu Catholic'. The
reformist Arya Samajis of North India were strongly anti-Christian. There
was Western influence on the Prarthana Samaj of Western India but one
cannot discern specific Christian influence.

Among those who had really taken moral inspirational ideas from
Christianity one can count Mahatma Gandhi of the twentieth century but not
the leaders of the nineteenth century enlightenment movement. Gandhiji was
probably influenced by the ideas of Leo Tolstoy and some American thinkers.
But Gandhiji himself and  his followers consider themselves religious
minded Hindus

The missionaries were successful mainly in Central India and fringe areas
of the South. The intellectual movement, on the other hand, started with
religion but, with the exception of the Arya Samajis, it progressively
spoke for and leaned towards the secular way of life and thought. Religious
activities thrived among Hindu Missionaries - the Arya Samajis, the
Ramkrishna Mission, the Bharat Sevasram Sangha etc. They took the idea of
organized missionary activity from the Christian organizations but competed
with it in theology.

Best

DB


On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
wrote:

>  This is very fascinating. But may I play the advocate of the devil and
> suggest that Madhva who lived in the 12-13th century CE (AD) could have
> been influenced by both Islam and Nestorian christianity, or perhaps knew
> about them and reacted in the way some nineteenth century Hindu apologists
> reacted? Besides, without more details as to how and what exactly Madhva
> wrote, I cannot form a definite opinion. I also do not believe ancient
> Indians did not have any notion of factual history. I do believe that the
> texts that are called itihasa may never have been meant to provide factual
> history, quite like the Thorah and the prophetic books in the Tanakh were
> not meant to provide accurate literal history. Even many of the New
> Testamental miracles and stories are now regarded as not historical
> accounts but as enacted parables (signs in the language of the gospel of
> John).
>
> In this context I would argue for more, serious and politically unbiased
> religious studies in Hinduism (backed up by philological indology), Hindu
> theology and Hindu exegesis of texts. I do not think, Hindus are well
> served when the sacred Sanskrit narratives are flattened down to some sort
> of early twentieth century Hindu Pentecostal literalism.
>
> Victor van Bijlert
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
>
> Associate professor Religious Studies
>
> Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
>
> Faculty of Theology, VU University
>
> De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
>
> v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
>
> +31613184203
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* Howard Resnick [hr at ivs.edu]
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:43 PM
>
> *To:* Bijlert, V.A. van
> *Cc:* Indology List
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
>
>  I agree with you on the source of 19th and 20th century influences on
> Hindu propagandists and their theories of shastric historicity. Prior to
> this, faithful Vaishnavas, for example, did not have ?scientific?
> historiography on their radar as they do in modern times. Thus the notion
> that itihasa is indeed history developed in other ways in pre-modern
> times.
>
>  I will cite merely one example, Madhva?s Mahabharata-tatparya-nirnaya
> (13c), in which he states (2.3-4) that the Mahabharata text available to
> him is rife with corruption ? interpolations, extrapolations, and
> transpositions of text. Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real
> history, in all its supernatural abundance.
>
>  Best,
> Howard
>
>  On Jul 13, 2014, at 11:22 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
> wrote:
>
>  Do you know of any other source in the nineteenth and early twentieth
> century that Hindu propagandists could have used? Is there any early
> pre-modern or even pre-islamic discussion in Indian thought about the
> Mahabharata and Ramayana as accurate depictions of historical facts?
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
>  Associate professor Religious Studies
>  Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
>  Faculty of Theology, VU University
>  De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
>  v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
>  +31613184203
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* Howard Resnick [hr at ivs.edu]
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 13, 2014 1:49 PM
> *To:* Bijlert, V.A. van
> *Cc:* Indology List
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
>
>  Can we really attribute to modern Christian influence the Hindu belief
> in Mahabharata and Ramayana as sacred history, apart from the many other
> meanings of the texts?
>
>
>  On Jul 13, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl>
> wrote:
>
>   It seems to me there is a task for hermeneutics rather than pure
> philological indology. We are dealing with rather simplistic views of what
> the Mahabharata and Ramayana (and other puranas as well?) represent. The
> idea that these texts are historical seems to derive from the rather
> fundamentalist evangelical christian view of the Bible as containing
> undiluted historical truth. Hindus since the nineteenth century were
> confronted with this view propounded by missionaries and as a reaction
> claimed that their own Sanskrit texts were also historical. In christian
> hermeneutics and Biblical philology as indeed in theology such simplistic
> historical views have long been discarded. But apparently not so among some
> Hindus with regard to epics and the puranas.
> Victor van Bijlert
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
>  Associate professor Religious Studies
>  Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
>  Faculty of Theology, VU University
>  De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
>  v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
>  +31613184203
>  _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 19:35:34 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 21:35:34 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CANFkKBauP1Gdewe3DpyXGs_-UFEXr3yUUQ-Xi_9gmpxf0bZhcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcEkzQacqa-zGnyko99G0fDqNQevKsQwPodvtuKrSYm1Q@mail.gmail.com>

About p?tala (if that's the word), if this is a formation with the -la
suffic (lac) by P??ini 5.2.96-99, then the suffix means the same as
mat(up), i.e.,  "having yellow."  Would this be an author trying to be
precise, meaning that the result of alchemical process "had yellow" rather
than actually *being* yellow?

However, there may be a problem with p?ta-la.  Of words that are not -?
stems meaning a part of the body, the list that can have a -la suffix,
sidhm?di, includes pitta, but not p?ta.   I'm away from my main reference
books: is ???????? an ????????  If not, then P??ini would seem not to allow
the formation p?ta-la.

My more learned vy?kara?a colleagues might be able to clarify this point.

Best,
Dominik

?


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From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 20:31:57 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 13:31:57 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CANFkKBauP1Gdewe3DpyXGs_-UFEXr3yUUQ-Xi_9gmpxf0bZhcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN-KD9BA2TQ7msnFAzVErmWQ0sEqCxhy=9KKgdXcDue8sA@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you so much Isabelle for these cogent thoughts and helpful references!


On 13 July 2014 07:32, Isabelle Ratie <isabelle.ratie at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Christopher,
>
> The passage in IPVV, vol. III, p. 348 is as difficult (to me at least) as it is interesting. Needless to say I don't claim to understand it better than you or any of the other learned scholars involved in this discussion, all the more since I am utterly ignorant of Indian alchemy. I would simply like to make a few additional remarks, hoping that they won't end up making things more obscure than they already are!
>
> 1. As regards the first part of the analogy: Abhinavagupta also uses the image of mercury transforming copper into gold in Tantraaloka 5.151 (note the use of vedhita by the way): svaya.mbhaasaatmanaanena taadaatmya? yaaty ananyadhii.h / "sivena hemataa.m yadvat taamra.m suutena vedhitam // (Cf. also TA 14.12). See also e.g. Yogaraaja ad Paramaarthasaara 96, p. 186: yathaa taamradravya.m siddharasapaataat suvar.niibhavati... I'm afraid these passages don't shed much light on the problems that you are trying to solve - still, maybe it is worth looking for other passages of this sort that could be more detailed?
>
> 2. I would consider with much caution the suggestion that tannijaruupasamyagviddhakanakaruupataa is a marginal annotation that crept in the text of the KSTS edition, and this because (not to mention that marginal annotations are much more rare in IPVV manuscripts than in IPV manuscripts, and understandably so given the length of the IPVV) the IPVV comments on the lost text of the Viv.rti, so that there is much in the IPVV that does not make sense to us simply because we don't have the muula-text (compare for instance IPVV ad IPK 1.3.6 to 1.5.3 with the Viv.rti fragments now at our disposal thanks to Raffaele Torella's editions...So much that sounded like gibberish before makes sense now!). It is true that tannijaruupa- for instance rings like a mere gloss of some tatsvaruupa- ending compound; but then again it is likely that here Abhinavagupta is simply explaining the analogy as he found it in the Viv.rti.
>
> 3. I understand why you want piitalataa to mean "gold leaf", although I must confess that just as Raffaele Torella and Ashok Aklujkar, my first reaction was to think "brassness". I see why you want to understand it in this way: you need gold here rather than brass, especially given the passage that you brought to the list's attention in the first place, which is clearly about gold being dissolved by mercury. But I don't know if lataa can have this meaning, and in the context of this analogy we would rather expect a word matching idantaa, i.e. with an abstract suffix. Would it be possible to understand piitalataa as we would understand piitataa, i.e. as "goldness" (given that piita means both "yellow" and "gold", and that piitala also means yellow/yellow substance)? I'm afraid that piitala only designates brass but I have no certainty in this regard. Wouldn't you contemplate a tentative emendation into piitataa then? In any case the compound that you see as spurious could actually serve your overall interpretation. Abhinavagupta could mean that in the turyaatiita state of consciousness even the remnants of objectivity (in the form of residual traces) are dissolved/liquefied and immersed into the pure "I", just as mercury liquefies the goldness (piitalataa/piitataa) that remains (it seems to me that ava"se.sa rather goes with piitalataa/piitataa) due to the force of residual traces, by bringing it into a full "jara.na" (maturation, or whatever this technical term really means) where this goldness (this time kanakaruupataa) is entirely pervaded by the own form of this (tannijaruupa) - that is, by the own form of mercury.
>
> Does this sound awfully far-fetched? I don't know - once more I have no certainty whatsoever as regards the meaning of this passage, and I can only say that you are brave to tackle it!
>
> All best wishes,
>
> Isabelle
>
> --
> Dr. Isabelle Rati?
> Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
> Austrian Academy of Sciences
> Apostelgasse 23, 1030 Vienna, Austria
>
>
>
> 2014-07-13 11:48 GMT+02:00 Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>:
>
>> ?Just on the pitta/p?ta issue, these are, from the point of view of
>> historical phonology, alternants of the same word meaning "yellow" (cf. law
>> of morae; Mayrhofer). Bile, pitta, in Indian medicine, was "[yellow, p?ta]
>> bile."  The word p?ta occurs very frequently in ayurvedic sentences in
>> close collocation with the word pitta (e.g., see this listing of
>> collocations
>> <http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/search3t?dbname=indologica&word=.*pitt.*+.*p%C4%ABt.*&OUTPUT=conc&CONJUNCT=PROXY&DISTANCE=5&title=&author=>).
>> So I think this semantic connection was alive in the minds of ayurvedic
>> authors.  This deserves proper study.
>>
>> India did not evolve the concept of "black bile" (Gk. melancholia) that
>> evolved in Hippocratic medicine.
>>
>> Best,
>> Dominik
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From hr at ivs.edu  Sun Jul 13 23:26:35 2014
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 19:26:35 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CDC4C7747D50984E8BA0A4224A0208D9A1DECE41@PEXMB001B.vu.local>
Message-ID: <0000D5E5-65B6-4EF1-8D47-1EBD403B446C@ivs.edu>

Thank you for your important insights and questions. As you suggest in another post, we cannot rule out Muslim or Nestorian influence on Madhva, though it is hard to rule it in. Here are a few points to consider:

1. In his Mahabharata-tatparya-nirnaya, Madhva makes clear that he wants to correct what he sees as a corrupted history. Thus in the first verse, Madhva bows to Narayana as the complete ocean of ?qualities? ? paripurna-guna-arnavaya. We know that in the great Vedanta battles between Sankara, Ramanuja, Madhva and others, ?guna? is a key term, indicating that the absolute has precisely those qualities associated with itihasa and purana stories about Deities. Madhva uses the double emphasis of paripurna and arnava to nail down his view that God does have personal qualities, and is not a manifestation of an ultimate nirguna-brahma.

2. In the second verse of MTN, Madhva claims that Narayana keeps all sentient beings within his stomach (jaThare, and consorts with Laksmi ). These are both typical itihasa-purana claims. Again in this second verse Madhva insists that Narayana is the ?ocean of qualities?. In other words, there is really not the slightest hint that we speaking about symbolic or non-historical events and entities.

3. As we know there is a well developed system in Sanskrit polemics of presenting and refuting the purva-paksa, opposing view.  I think we need to look for some sign in Madhva or other writers of a purva-paksa that can be reasonably traced to Western challenges to Hindu views. 

4. I explained earlier that Madhva speaks openly of major text corruptions in the Mahabharata. However his concern is clearly to establish what he considers to be the true history. Thus he spends much time arguing that Bhima, not Arjuna, is the ultimate hero of Mahabharata. He never suggests that the Pandavas are not real people who walked on earth. 
	Similarly, a later text, the 16th century Caitana-caritamrta of Krishnadasa Kaviraja, speaks of ?illusory [mAyA-maya] stories? in itihasa-purana (Adi-lila 23.117-118. Thus acaryas are not shy about challenging the authenticity of specific verses or claims of venerated Hindu texts. However at least in Vaishnava circles, their purpose is consistently to restore what they see as a correct reading of the history. Thus some Bhagavatam commentaries deny the literal truth of the well known itihasa-purana claim that eclipses occur because Rahu chases or swallows the sun or moon,

	I mention all this to point out that text criticism certainly existed among Hindu teachers, however we can we find a modern type denial of the general historicity of itihasa emerging as a clearly discernible purva-paksa? One might say that Sankara challenges the ultimate truth of gods and their deeds by his metaphysical claim that that all such personal sa-rupa sa-guna forms of the Absolute are ultimately illusory. We know that Vaishnava Vedantists elaborately argue against this view. Yet Sankara glorifies the personal Krishna, son of Devaki. And as far as I know, Sankara does not claim, for example, that Krishna never came to this world, that he never spoke the Gita to Arjuna, or that he never aided the Devas etc etc.
	I am not aware of any important Vaishnava teachers arguing against a purva-paksa view that is clearly discernible as a modern type denial of the general historicity of itihasa. 

Thank you again for raising these interesting points.

Best,
Howard


On Jul 13, 2014, at 11:36 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl> wrote:

> That is very interesting. But does this mean that the whole text of the Valmiki Ramayana or the Mahabharata should be treated as a more or less faithful representation of facts. Is that the main function of the epics? I do not question the idea that the epics constitute some kind of meaningful sacred narrative with some historically accurate details worked into it. The same is true of the Old Testament. But can one use the Mahabharata and the Ramayana to 'rewrite' the history of ancient India in such a way that the latter is 'purged' of western influences. I think this is the burden of the initial part of this discussion. My contribution to it was to point out that the epics stand in need of more refined hermeneutics, in order to avoid rewritings of ancient Indian history.
> Yours truly
> Victor van Bijlert
> 
> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
> Associate professor Religious Studies
> Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
> Faculty of Theology, VU University
> De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
> v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
> +31613184203
> From: Madhav Deshpande [mmdesh at umich.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:28 PM
> To: Bijlert, V.A. van
> Cc: Howard Resnick; Indology
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
> 
> While there was no historical awareness in pre-modern India in the modern sense of history, many genealogies of medieval kings (including the Bhosales of Maharashtra) begin with the coronation of Yudhishthira, and so they are treating the epic and puranic lists as historical in their own understanding of history.
> 
> Madhav Deshpande
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl> wrote:
> Do you know of any other source in the nineteenth and early twentieth century that Hindu propagandists could have used? Is there any early pre-modern or even pre-islamic discussion in Indian thought about the Mahabharata and Ramayana as accurate depictions of historical facts?
> 
> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
> Associate professor Religious Studies
> Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
> Faculty of Theology, VU University
> De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
> v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
> +31613184203
> From: Howard Resnick [hr at ivs.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 1:49 PM
> To: Bijlert, V.A. van
> Cc: Indology List
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
> 
> Can we really attribute to modern Christian influence the Hindu belief in Mahabharata and Ramayana as sacred history, apart from the many other meanings of the texts?
> 
> 
> On Jul 13, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl> wrote:
> 
>> It seems to me there is a task for hermeneutics rather than pure philological indology. We are dealing with rather simplistic views of what the Mahabharata and Ramayana (and other puranas as well?) represent. The idea that these texts are historical seems to derive from the rather fundamentalist evangelical christian view of the Bible as containing undiluted historical truth. Hindus since the nineteenth century were confronted with this view propounded by missionaries and as a reaction claimed that their own Sanskrit texts were also historical. In christian hermeneutics and Biblical philology as indeed in theology such simplistic historical views have long been discarded. But apparently not so among some Hindus with regard to epics and the puranas.
>> Victor van Bijlert
>>  
>> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
>> Associate professor Religious Studies
>> Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
>> Faculty of Theology, VU University
>> De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
>> v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
>> +31613184203
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
> Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
> 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
> The University of Michigan
> Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info



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From hr at ivs.edu  Sun Jul 13 23:37:39 2014
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 19:37:39 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eaLDYvCRcF_SB76FR_-QmRoBRRCU5H7s9FSG32+S_gM6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FFC361C1-0C83-4875-B620-8FCBC0356913@ivs.edu>

Again, I think we need to first find evidence that Madhva engaged a purva-paksa notion that itihasa is not history, or that such a position was of general concern at his time. 

Best,
Howard

On Jul 13, 2014, at 2:09 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:

> "Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all its supernatural abundance"
>  
>                                                                                                                                        -Howard Resnick
>  
> This is really interesting. May I know the exact words used by Sri Madhvacharya with the meaning 'real history' ? That citation will help in tracing the history of the notion of 'real history' among pre-modern Indian writers.
>  
> Regards,
>  
> Nagaraj
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info






From hr at ivs.edu  Sun Jul 13 23:40:37 2014
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 14 19:40:37 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CABEB9q+ZWFSHVG6u2ZwTT3SvJbCw7uQ758XYGCj_x2C_XzAaGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5C8C2079-3EE4-4D10-85ED-554A785A288B@ivs.edu>

One often hears that Madhva believes in an eternal hell for some souls. Could that be Christian influence?

On Jul 13, 2014, at 2:30 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote:

> The question of Christian influence on the nineteenth century reformist thought has been raised but there are some misconceptions about it.
> 
> There was not much of Christian influence on the reformist movement since about 1850. In Bengal the Brahmo religous leader Keshub Chandra Sen sang to the glory of the Christ but he was forsaken by mainstream Brahmos. Keshab Candra was pragmatic. He wanted to remove possible obstacles to his own missionary work. But Debendranath Tagore was against him. The main reformer of Bengal, Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar, was an atheist. The Brahmo priest Shivnath Shastri has narrated how Vidyasagar ridiculed a Christian missionary who had come to covert him. The revolutionary Brahmabandhab Upadhyay was Christian but he called himself 'Hindu Catholic'. The reformist Arya Samajis of North India were strongly anti-Christian. There was Western influence on the Prarthana Samaj of Western India but one cannot discern specific Christian influence.
> 
> Among those who had really taken moral inspirational ideas from Christianity one can count Mahatma Gandhi of the twentieth century but not the leaders of the nineteenth century enlightenment movement. Gandhiji was probably influenced by the ideas of Leo Tolstoy and some American thinkers. But Gandhiji himself and  his followers consider themselves religious minded Hindus
> 
> The missionaries were successful mainly in Central India and fringe areas of the South. The intellectual movement, on the other hand, started with religion but, with the exception of the Arya Samajis, it progressively spoke for and leaned towards the secular way of life and thought. Religious activities thrived among Hindu Missionaries - the Arya Samajis, the Ramkrishna Mission, the Bharat Sevasram Sangha etc. They took the idea of organized missionary activity from the Christian organizations but competed with it in theology.
> 
> Best
> 
> DB
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl> wrote:
> This is very fascinating. But may I play the advocate of the devil and suggest that Madhva who lived in the 12-13th century CE (AD) could have been influenced by both Islam and Nestorian christianity, or perhaps knew about them and reacted in the way some nineteenth century Hindu apologists reacted? Besides, without more details as to how and what exactly Madhva wrote, I cannot form a definite opinion. I also do not believe ancient Indians did not have any notion of factual history. I do believe that the texts that are called itihasa may never have been meant to provide factual history, quite like the Thorah and the prophetic books in the Tanakh were not meant to provide accurate literal history. Even many of the New Testamental miracles and stories are now regarded as not historical accounts but as enacted parables (signs in the language of the gospel of John).
> 
> In this context I would argue for more, serious and politically unbiased religious studies in Hinduism (backed up by philological indology), Hindu theology and Hindu exegesis of texts. I do not think, Hindus are well served when the sacred Sanskrit narratives are flattened down to some sort of early twentieth century Hindu Pentecostal literalism.
> 
> Victor van Bijlert
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
> 
> Associate professor Religious Studies
> Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
> Faculty of Theology, VU University
> De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
> v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
> +31613184203
> From: Howard Resnick [hr at ivs.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:43 PM
> 
> To: Bijlert, V.A. van
> Cc: Indology List
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
> 
> I agree with you on the source of 19th and 20th century influences on Hindu propagandists and their theories of shastric historicity. Prior to this, faithful Vaishnavas, for example, did not have ?scientific? historiography on their radar as they do in modern times. Thus the notion that itihasa is indeed history developed in other ways in pre-modern times. 
> 
> I will cite merely one example, Madhva?s Mahabharata-tatparya-nirnaya (13c), in which he states (2.3-4) that the Mahabharata text available to him is rife with corruption ? interpolations, extrapolations, and transpositions of text. Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all its supernatural abundance.
> 
> Best,
> Howard
> 
> On Jul 13, 2014, at 11:22 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl> wrote:
> 
>> Do you know of any other source in the nineteenth and early twentieth century that Hindu propagandists could have used? Is there any early pre-modern or even pre-islamic discussion in Indian thought about the Mahabharata and Ramayana as accurate depictions of historical facts?
>> 
>> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
>> Associate professor Religious Studies
>> Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
>> Faculty of Theology, VU University
>> De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
>> v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
>> +31613184203
>> From: Howard Resnick [hr at ivs.edu]
>> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 1:49 PM
>> To: Bijlert, V.A. van
>> Cc: Indology List
>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
>> 
>> Can we really attribute to modern Christian influence the Hindu belief in Mahabharata and Ramayana as sacred history, apart from the many other meanings of the texts?
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 13, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl> wrote:
>> 
>>> It seems to me there is a task for hermeneutics rather than pure philological indology. We are dealing with rather simplistic views of what the Mahabharata and Ramayana (and other puranas as well?) represent. The idea that these texts are historical seems to derive from the rather fundamentalist evangelical christian view of the Bible as containing undiluted historical truth. Hindus since the nineteenth century were confronted with this view propounded by missionaries and as a reaction claimed that their own Sanskrit texts were also historical. In christian hermeneutics and Biblical philology as indeed in theology such simplistic historical views have long been discarded. But apparently not so among some Hindus with regard to epics and the puranas.
>>> Victor van Bijlert
>>>  
>>> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
>>> Associate professor Religious Studies
>>> Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
>>> Faculty of Theology, VU University
>>> De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
>>> v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
>>> +31613184203
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
> 



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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 04:54:38 2014
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 14 10:24:38 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <FFC361C1-0C83-4875-B620-8FCBC0356913@ivs.edu>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebp+wu-Ao8Teg6g2ahkupLzFnEsKjQnbXhmtvJ9GgrHgw@mail.gmail.com>

That was my hunch. I do not think that there was a purva-paksha that
itihasa is not history and I also think that such a position was of general
concern at his time.
You might want to reconsider your claim "Yet he accepts the basic
Mahabharata story as real history, in all its supernatural abundance" then.

At a time when the category of 'history' itself is being interrogated ,
'history' as a 'modern' category is being intensely scrutinized through
'post-modern' tools, elevation of 'history' to a higher value vis-?-vis
myth and other narrative accounts of past is more and more being viewed as
a product of enlightenment age fascination for logical positivist
understandings, the tendency of an office to hang on to the obsolete
tendency of claiming the assumed superior status of 'history' to certain
narratives is what comes of the reported words of the new ICHR Chairman.

Warm regards,

Nagaraj



On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 5:07 AM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:

> Again, I think we need to first find evidence that Madhva engaged a
> purva-paksa notion that itihasa is not history, or that such a position was
> of general concern at his time.
>
> Best,
> Howard
>
> On Jul 13, 2014, at 2:09 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > "Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all its
> supernatural abundance"
> >
> >
>                                                                -Howard
> Resnick
> >
> > This is really interesting. May I know the exact words used by Sri
> Madhvacharya with the meaning 'real history' ? That citation will help in
> tracing the history of the notion of 'real history' among pre-modern Indian
> writers.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Nagaraj
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> > Hyderabad-500044
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > http://listinfo.indology.info
>
>


-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 05:00:06 2014
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 14 10:30:06 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9ebp+wu-Ao8Teg6g2ahkupLzFnEsKjQnbXhmtvJ9GgrHgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eZpwkXPZj3TxMo1eqFEsFrUYzns7GHRBJUSt0koCmQ-Hg@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for the typing error: Please read "I also think that such a position
was not of general concern at his time. " for

"I also think that such a position was of general concern at his time".

Nagaraj




On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:24 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> That was my hunch. I do not think that there was a purva-paksha that
> itihasa is not history and I also think that such a position was of general
> concern at his time.
> You might want to reconsider your claim "Yet he accepts the basic
> Mahabharata story as real history, in all its supernatural abundance" then.
>
> At a time when the category of 'history' itself is being interrogated ,
> 'history' as a 'modern' category is being intensely scrutinized through
> 'post-modern' tools, elevation of 'history' to a higher value vis-?-vis
> myth and other narrative accounts of past is more and more being viewed as
> a product of enlightenment age fascination for logical positivist
> understandings, the tendency of an office to hang on to the obsolete
> tendency of claiming the assumed superior status of 'history' to certain
> narratives is what comes of the reported words of the new ICHR Chairman.
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Nagaraj
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 5:07 AM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>
>> Again, I think we need to first find evidence that Madhva engaged a
>> purva-paksa notion that itihasa is not history, or that such a position was
>> of general concern at his time.
>>
>> Best,
>> Howard
>>
>> On Jul 13, 2014, at 2:09 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > "Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all its
>> supernatural abundance"
>> >
>> >
>>                                                                -Howard
>> Resnick
>> >
>> > This is really interesting. May I know the exact words used by Sri
>> Madhvacharya with the meaning 'real history' ? That citation will help in
>> tracing the history of the notion of 'real history' among pre-modern Indian
>> writers.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Nagaraj
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>> > Hyderabad-500044
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> > http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
>



-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From dmellins at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 08:27:17 2014
From: dmellins at gmail.com (David Mellins)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 14 16:27:17 +0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn (1941-2014)
In-Reply-To: <CABEB9qLcWcmwU_oxVdX9F2NUHUOHNExYyYcFE9f6+R7+TQUAQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3E0B2C6E-87D0-4F0A-B049-74BAECD88E4B@gmail.com>

Very sad news to receive while abroad. Just to affirm Dr. Hahn's willingness and indeed pleasure to share his hard earned knowledge of Sanskrit and Tibetan literatures with junior colleagues. I will regret many questions that never had the opportunity to be asked. 

Sincerely,

David Mellins

On Jul 13, 2014, at 7:56 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote:

> Very sad indeed!
> DB
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Dragomir Dimitrov <dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de> wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
> 
> it is with deep regret that I convey to you the sad news of the passing away
> of our beloved teacher and good friend Professor Michael Hahn. After a
> prolonged illness this distinguished scholar left us peacefully in the evening
> of July 12, 2014. For almost two decades from 1988 till 2006 Professor
> Michael Hahn held the chair of the Department of Indology and Tibetology at
> the University of Marburg, where he fostered many students and contributed
> numerous books and articles. Even to the very last days of his fruitful life,
> despite the impediments of his illness, he was always keen to promote
> scholarship and generously shared his vast knowledge. We will all dearly
> miss him. A small memorial service will be held today at 5 p.m. in the St.
> Elisabeth-Hospiz in Marburg. At present arrangements for a funeral service at
> his birthplace in Otterndorf are being made.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Dragomir Dimitrov
> 
> 
> ________________________________________
> 
>    Dr. phil. Dragomir Dimitrov
>    Indologie und Tibetologie
>    Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
>    Deutschhausstr. 12
>    D-35032 Marburg
>    Germany
> 
>    Tel.: +49 6421 28 24640, +49 178 9190340
>    E-mail: dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de
>    http://www.uni-marburg.de/indologie
> ________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info



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From naomi.appleton at ed.ac.uk  Mon Jul 14 08:42:20 2014
From: naomi.appleton at ed.ac.uk (Naomi Appleton)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 14 09:42:20 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Khyentse Foundation Buddhist Studies Dissertation Award,	Europe
In-Reply-To: <mailman.41.1405267211.30177.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <BF92C614-F817-4C14-A57D-8BC96B4D7F5C@ed.ac.uk>

Dear colleagues,


I am delighted to announce the launch of a new award from the Khyentse Foundation (www.khyentsefoundation.org) which will provide a prize of $8,000 USD to the author of the best Buddhist Studies doctoral dissertation submitted in Europe and written in the English language. The award will be presented every two years, and details of how and when to nominate a dissertation are pasted below. 

Please circulate this announcement widely, and consider submitting a nomination for this award.

With best wishes,
Naomi

--------------------------------
Dr Naomi Appleton
Chancellor's Fellow in Religious Studies
School of Divinity, University of Edinburgh
naomi.appleton at ed.ac.uk


Announcing the Establishment of the Khyentse Foundation

Award for Outstanding PhD Dissertations in Buddhist Studies, Europe

(San Francisco, June 20, 2014) -- Khyentse Foundation is pleased to announce the establishment of its second Award for Outstanding Dissertations in Buddhist Studies. The award will be presented every two years to the best PhD dissertation in the field of Buddhist Studies written in Europe, including the UK, during the previous two academic years. The dissertation must be based on original research in the relevant primary language, and it should significantly advance understanding of the subject or Buddhist scriptures studied.

The dissertation must be written in English. The award will consist of US$8,000 to enable the recipient to further his or her research.

Accredited institutions that offer PhD programs in Buddhist Studies or Religious Studies in any European country are invited to nominate one dissertation that was completed during the academic year 2012-13 and 2013-14.


Nominations will be accepted from October 1 through December 31, 2014.

Nominations must include four separate documents: 

?      Letter of recommendation by a member of the faculty and/or the chair of the department or institution 

?      Summary of the dissertation in English (not more than 2 pages)

?      One representative chapter of the dissertation

?      Full contact details for the department and for the author of the dissertation    

These documents should be submitted by email to jun at khyentsefoundation.org.

 
A five-person committee will select three dissertations to be read in their entirety by all committee members. The result of the competition will be announced by June 30 of the following year.

If circumstances permit, the recipient of the award will be invited to give a lecture based on his or her dissertation at an institution selected by Khyentse Foundation.

 

Calendar

Oct 1-Dec 31, 2014                    Nominations accepted

Feb 28, 2015                              Three dissertations selected

May 15, 2015                              Winning dissertation selected

June 30, 2015                            Winner announced

June 30, 2016                            Invitation to submit nominations for the next award


 
Khyentse Foundation sponsors a similar award for dissertations written in Asia. The recipient of the Asian award for 2014 is Mr. Chao Tung Ming, who received his PhD in Philosophy from National Taiwan University in 2011. He won the award for his thesis on the Chinese Yog?c?ra school of Buddhism.

 
Khyentse Foundation is an international 501(c)3 nonprofit organization founded in 2001 by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche. The foundation supports individuals and institutions engaged in the practice and study of Buddhism, with beneficiaries in 30 countries. In the past 10 years, the foundation has offered more than US$7 million in grants, directly affecting the lives of people around the world. Projects funded include a chair of Buddhist studies at the University of California at Berkeley, the digitization of the entire Tibetan Buddhist scriptural canon, endowments for traditional monastic colleges in Asia, a worldwide scholarship program, and numerous other innovative initiatives. Learn more about Khyentse Foundation and Dzongsar Khyentse?s activities at khyentsefoundation.org.

 



The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
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From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de  Mon Jul 14 17:07:53 2014
From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 14 17:07:53 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #436
Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D949C308963@UM-excdag-a02.um.gwdg.de>


GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection:


Samyuttanikaya 1 and 2: PTS/Dhammakaya version, annotated and plain text:
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#Samyutt



__________________________________________________________________________

"GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement")

GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages:

http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm





From hr at ivs.edu  Mon Jul 14 21:35:45 2014
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 14 17:35:45 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9ebp+wu-Ao8Teg6g2ahkupLzFnEsKjQnbXhmtvJ9GgrHgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <842AB559-B329-4781-875B-6EE3354FA1E0@ivs.edu>

Thank you for these observations. I will add this:

1. In his Dhvany-aloka, Ananda-vardhana uses the term aucitya, ?fitness, suitableness? in this sense: in order to inspire the proper rasa or sentiment in an audience, reader, hearer etc, one may adjust or change some ?historical? details of a story. One good example: the story of Shakuntala, found in Mahabharata and then ?adjusted? for rasika effect by Kalidasa. 

2. Apart from the license accorded by aucitya, acaryas and other commentators may ?correct? shastric passages on theological, i.e. siddhantic grounds, as in the case of Madhva ?correcting? the Mahabharata. Similarly, the Bhagavata Purana ?corrects? various stories of the Mahabharata, such as the death of the great King Pariksit. (It seems like everyone corrects the Mahabharata!) 

3. At least to some extent Vedic/Hindu belief in the cyclical, repetitive nature of time certainly plays a role here. Imagine a poet who has observed many times the passing of four seasons. The poet then writes an ode to spring, or winter, etc. On the one hand, the poem does not seek to give a ?scientific? metereological description of a specific spring or winter, with hard numbers for every day and hour. On the other hand, the poem is a poeticized, synthesized depiction of a real, objective phenomenon in the world: seasons. Ditto of course for Vivaldi?s classic Four Seasons. I suggest that sages, including shastra-krits, who believe in, or (from a faithful standpoint) experience, endless yuga cycles, including endless manvantaras, avataras, etc, give at times what they take to be a poeticized, synthesized picture of yugas, manvantaras, avataras, divya-lila etc. But like poets or composers who speak of seasons, these sages generally, perhaps not always, believe that they are speaking of real things, as much as Vivaldi certainly believed that four seasons exist.

4. It seems the truth of this matter thus lies somewhere between two extremes:
	First extreme: Vedic and Hindu thinkers believed that Shastras are historical in exactly the same sense that modern academic historians believe that a well researched, well written history book basically tells an objective story.
	Second extreme: Vedic and Hindu thinkers had no sense of history, and no sense that itihasa-purana is objective history.

Thanks for your patience!
Best
Howard
	

On Jul 14, 2014, at 12:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:

> That was my hunch. I do not think that there was a purva-paksha that itihasa is not history and I also think that such a position was of general concern at his time.
> You might want to reconsider your claim "Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all its supernatural abundance" then.
>  
> At a time when the category of 'history' itself is being interrogated , 'history' as a 'modern' category is being intensely scrutinized through 'post-modern' tools, elevation of 'history' to a higher value vis-?-vis myth and other narrative accounts of past is more and more being viewed as a product of enlightenment age fascination for logical positivist understandings, the tendency of an office to hang on to the obsolete tendency of claiming the assumed superior status of 'history' to certain narratives is what comes of the reported words of the new ICHR Chairman.
>  
> Warm regards,
>  
> Nagaraj 
>  
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 5:07 AM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
> Again, I think we need to first find evidence that Madhva engaged a purva-paksa notion that itihasa is not history, or that such a position was of general concern at his time.
> 
> Best,
> Howard
> 
> On Jul 13, 2014, at 2:09 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > "Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all its supernatural abundance"
> >
> >                                                                                                                                        -Howard Resnick
> >
> > This is really interesting. May I know the exact words used by Sri Madhvacharya with the meaning 'real history' ? That citation will help in tracing the history of the notion of 'real history' among pre-modern Indian writers.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Nagaraj
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> > Hyderabad-500044
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > http://listinfo.indology.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044



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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jul 15 19:35:31 2014
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 14 01:05:31 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <842AB559-B329-4781-875B-6EE3354FA1E0@ivs.edu>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eY5uScBRHNcOHuZpRKNDLC6WgONwLvdpVvfPu8K9+dVKg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for bringing poetics into the discussion. There are many other
'tools' that help this 'history Vs myth' discussion.



1. As for traditional Sanskrit poetics, dhvany?l?ka, in fact, maintains the
autonomy of poet and his poetic creation by proclaiming

"ap?r? k?vya sams?r? kavi r?kah praj?p?tih

yath?smai r?chat? vi?vam tath?dam parivartat?"



2. Another place where we find recognition of 'a??str?ya' elements  in
poetry and proclamation of that as 'not wrong' in Rajashekhara's
k?vyam?m?msa  while discussing his highly innovative categorization of
kavisamaya.


kavisamaya? j?tidravyakriy?samayasth?pan? /
a??str?yamalaukika? ca parampar?y?ta? yamarthamupanibadhnanti kavaya? sa
kavisamaya? /
"nanve?a do?a? /


In support of his 'nanve?a do?a?' , he quotes several previous scholars
mentioning them as '?ch?ry?h' and 'y?yavar?y?h' which shows that such an
awareness is older than Rajashekhara.



3. The above is only about the distinction between the poetic world and the
'real' world. But this is not useful in discussing the awareness among
ancient Indians about the distinction between 'mythical reality' and the
'real' reality. Such a distinction is articulated in matsya pur??a.
?atsyan?r?ya?a answers manu that his ?disr???i (mythical reality) is to be
distinguished from the general sr???i ('real' reality).



 divyeyam?dis???istu rajogu?asamudbhav? /
at?ndriyendriy? tadvad at?ndriya?ar?rik? // MatsP_4.3 //
divyatejomay? bh?pa divyaj??nasamudbhav? /
na martyairabhita? ?aky? vaktu? vai m??sacak?ubhi? MatsP_4.4//




4.. Viewing myth as an unquestionable account of the real happenings of the
past was there with all the societies with myth-containing cultures
including the Greeks. That in Greek society too, poets modified certain
elements /portions of myths to suit their poetic works and those viewing
myth as an unquestionable account of the real happenings of the past
considered this to be 'lying about gods' is evident from Plato's
prescription to banish poets from his dream commonwealth for this reason.

5. Scepticism towards myth too is very much ancient both in Greece and
India.

6. Interestingly, it is only in the west that the intense defence of myth
developed in Kant, and neo-Kantian philosophers such as Cassirer, in
Jungian Psychoanalysis etc.

7. Particularly, understanding of Indian myth vis-?-vis history was
provided to the modern world by the historian of religions Mircea
Eliade. He made 'history' as one of  the ways of looking at the past, by
making 'history' the modern man's 'myth' and myth as the myth-believer's
'history'. I remember Levi Strauss asking his readers to imagine what would
be the response of the myth-believing people to the 'history' . He says
such people would respond by saying " Oh! That is what your mythology says!"

8. Interpretations of Ramayana, Mahabharata and Bhagavata as the concealed
expressions of Vedantic, Kundalini-taantric and other such ideas has a long
tradition in traditional Indian scholarship and shows the availability of
views other than those of 'real' accounts of the past  towards mythologies
in Indian tradition.

9. Viewing pur??ic narratives as v?d?rtha upabr?mha?a also is an outlook
different from that of real accounts of the past towards those narratives.
This outlook is very well established in the traditional Indian scholarship.

10. 'par?k?a priy? vai ivahi d?v?h pratyak?a dvi??h'  is a frequent
expression in the br?mha?as and ?ra?yakas, which again is an evidence of
the availability of 'non-real' perspectives towards 'deva-narratives'
(myths) in the ?r?ti-literature itself.

11. In my PhD dissertation, I developed a model of myth-interpretation
using the conceptual tools from the Vedic literature and showed that
ancient and medieval Indian poets were aware of such understandings of the
myth.

12. There at one place, I argued this way: Use of simple present for
narrative past is a linguistic convention. Use of past tense verbs for
'eternality' is a converse process to this and this is what we find in
the myths.

Thanks for your patience.

Regards,

Nagaraj








On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:

> Thank you for these observations. I will add this:
>
> 1. In his Dhvany-aloka, Ananda-vardhana uses the term aucitya, ?fitness,
> suitableness? in this sense: in order to inspire the proper rasa or
> sentiment in an audience, reader, hearer etc, one may adjust or change some
> ?historical? details of a story. One good example: the story of Shakuntala,
> found in Mahabharata and then ?adjusted? for rasika effect by Kalidasa.
>
> 2. Apart from the license accorded by aucitya, acaryas and other
> commentators may ?correct? shastric passages on theological, i.e.
> siddhantic grounds, as in the case of Madhva ?correcting? the Mahabharata.
> Similarly, the Bhagavata Purana ?corrects? various stories of
> the Mahabharata, such as the death of the great King Pariksit. (It seems
> like everyone corrects the Mahabharata!)
>
> 3. At least to some extent Vedic/Hindu belief in the cyclical, repetitive
> nature of time certainly plays a role here. Imagine a poet who has observed
> many times the passing of four seasons. The poet then writes an ode to
> spring, or winter, etc. On the one hand, the poem does not seek to give a
> ?scientific? metereological description of a specific spring or winter,
> with hard numbers for every day and hour. On the other hand, the poem is a
> poeticized, synthesized depiction of a real, objective phenomenon in the
> world: seasons. Ditto of course for Vivaldi?s classic Four Seasons. I
> suggest that sages, including shastra-krits, who believe in, or (from a
> faithful standpoint) experience, endless yuga cycles, including endless
> manvantaras, avataras, etc, give at times what they take to be a
> poeticized, synthesized picture of yugas, manvantaras, avataras, divya-lila
> etc. But like poets or composers who speak of seasons, these sages
> generally, perhaps not always, believe that they are speaking of real
> things, as much as Vivaldi certainly believed that four seasons exist.
>
> 4. It seems the truth of this matter thus lies somewhere between two
> extremes:
> First extreme: Vedic and Hindu thinkers believed that Shastras are
> historical in exactly the same sense that modern academic historians
> believe that a well researched, well written history book basically tells
> an objective story.
> Second extreme: Vedic and Hindu thinkers had no sense of history, and no
> sense that itihasa-purana is objective history.
>
> Thanks for your patience!
> Best
> Howard
>
> On Jul 14, 2014, at 12:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> That was my hunch. I do not think that there was a purva-paksha that
> itihasa is not history and I also think that such a position was of general
> concern at his time.
> You might want to reconsider your claim "Yet he accepts the basic
> Mahabharata story as real history, in all its supernatural abundance" then.
>
> At a time when the category of 'history' itself is being interrogated ,
> 'history' as a 'modern' category is being intensely scrutinized through
> 'post-modern' tools, elevation of 'history' to a higher value vis-?-vis
> myth and other narrative accounts of past is more and more being viewed as
> a product of enlightenment age fascination for logical positivist
> understandings, the tendency of an office to hang on to the obsolete
> tendency of claiming the assumed superior status of 'history' to certain
> narratives is what comes of the reported words of the new ICHR Chairman.
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Nagaraj
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 5:07 AM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>
>> Again, I think we need to first find evidence that Madhva engaged a
>> purva-paksa notion that itihasa is not history, or that such a position was
>> of general concern at his time.
>>
>> Best,
>> Howard
>>
>> On Jul 13, 2014, at 2:09 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > "Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all its
>> supernatural abundance"
>> >
>> >
>>                                                                -Howard
>> Resnick
>> >
>> > This is really interesting. May I know the exact words used by Sri
>> Madhvacharya with the meaning 'real history' ? That citation will help in
>> tracing the history of the notion of 'real history' among pre-modern Indian
>> writers.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Nagaraj
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>> > Hyderabad-500044
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> > http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
>
>
>


-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From katrin.binder at phil.uni-goettingen.de  Wed Jul 16 08:06:31 2014
From: katrin.binder at phil.uni-goettingen.de (Binder, Katrin)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 14 08:06:31 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ji Xianlin
Message-ID: <D6DC92DB20A2B64496A0DE2B46554BBFBA2346@UM-EXCDAG-A03.um.gwdg.de>

Dear list members,

the Department of Indology and Tibetan Studies at Goettingen University is pleased to announce a new addition to their website which highlights the eminent Chinese Indologist Ji Xianlin under the following link:

http://www.indologie.uni-goettingen.de/cms/index.php?id=117

We have put together information, documents and pictures relating to Ji Xianlin who studied and worked at Goettingen University between 1935 and 1945 and received his doctoral degree from this University in 1941.
At present, the site is only accessible in German but an English version will soon follow.
We welcome comments, criticism and additional information.

Warm regards,
Katrin Binder



Dr. Katrin Binder
Wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin (Academic Assistant)
Seminar f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
Georg-August-Universit?t G?ttingen
Waldweg 26
D-37073 G?ttingen
Tel. 0551-3913302


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From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Wed Jul 16 12:41:06 2014
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 14 14:41:06 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eY5uScBRHNcOHuZpRKNDLC6WgONwLvdpVvfPu8K9+dVKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrCQ4da5W7gKjkjJRf+jZr=1Xq=jzMzTbRPxmLYvYxjPjw@mail.gmail.com>

In terms of comparing myth building and poetics has anyone looked at the
discursive structure of contemporary satsaGgas held by yogis and gurus?

I have been trying to integrate elements of Sanskrit poetics into my
framework for this very purpose. My close reading of poetics and
aesthetics, particularly zAntarasa, resonate as having benefit for
analysing the discourse of this particular field of practice.

I focus on the performativity of satsaGga comparing the guru and poet who
use similar linguistic strategies to entertain and educate their audience.
With the assistance of the subjunctive mood I argue the primary aim is to
invoke the aesthetic appreciation of zAnta. However, satsaGga also serves
many other purposes, one of which is to assist with the creation of
potentially 'sublime and sacred worlds', which I believe is intimately
linked to the contemporary practice of myth building at personal, communal
and national levels.

I find the direction of this thread to be reassuring, hinting to the
possibility that at this early stage, the project might be on something of
a 'right track'. I invite any suggestions as to how this framework could be
developed.

Best

Patrick


All the best,

Patrick McCartney

PhD Candidate
School of Culture, History & Language
College of the Asia-Pacific
The Australian National University
Canberra, Australia, 0200
Rm 4.30 Baldessin Precinct Building

skype - psdmccartney
Ph: +61 487 398 354

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfpCc8G_cUw&feature=related


On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 9:35 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

>  Thanks for bringing poetics into the discussion. There are many other
> 'tools' that help this 'history Vs myth' discussion.
>
>
>
> 1. As for traditional Sanskrit poetics, dhvany?l?ka, in fact, maintains
> the autonomy of poet and his poetic creation by proclaiming
>
> "ap?r? k?vya sams?r? kavi r?kah praj?p?tih
>
> yath?smai r?chat? vi?vam tath?dam parivartat?"
>
>
>
> 2. Another place where we find recognition of 'a??str?ya' elements  in
> poetry and proclamation of that as 'not wrong' in Rajashekhara's
> k?vyam?m?msa  while discussing his highly innovative categorization of
> kavisamaya.
>
>
> kavisamaya? j?tidravyakriy?samayasth?pan? /
> a??str?yamalaukika? ca parampar?y?ta? yamarthamupanibadhnanti kavaya? sa
> kavisamaya? /
> "nanve?a do?a? /
>
>
> In support of his 'nanve?a do?a?' , he quotes several previous scholars
> mentioning them as '?ch?ry?h' and 'y?yavar?y?h' which shows that such an
> awareness is older than Rajashekhara.
>
>
>
> 3. The above is only about the distinction between the poetic world and
> the 'real' world. But this is not useful in discussing the awareness among
> ancient Indians about the distinction between 'mythical reality' and the
> 'real' reality. Such a distinction is articulated in matsya pur??a.
> ?atsyan?r?ya?a answers manu that his ?disr???i (mythical reality) is to be
> distinguished from the general sr???i ('real' reality).
>
>
>
>  divyeyam?dis???istu rajogu?asamudbhav? /
> at?ndriyendriy? tadvad at?ndriya?ar?rik? // MatsP_4.3 //
> divyatejomay? bh?pa divyaj??nasamudbhav? /
> na martyairabhita? ?aky? vaktu? vai m??sacak?ubhi? MatsP_4.4//
>
>
>
>
> 4.. Viewing myth as an unquestionable account of the real happenings of
> the past was there with all the societies with myth-containing cultures
> including the Greeks. That in Greek society too, poets modified certain
> elements /portions of myths to suit their poetic works and those viewing
> myth as an unquestionable account of the real happenings of the past
> considered this to be 'lying about gods' is evident from Plato's
> prescription to banish poets from his dream commonwealth for this reason.
>
> 5. Scepticism towards myth too is very much ancient both in Greece and
> India.
>
> 6. Interestingly, it is only in the west that the intense defence of myth
> developed in Kant, and neo-Kantian philosophers such as Cassirer, in
> Jungian Psychoanalysis etc.
>
> 7. Particularly, understanding of Indian myth vis-?-vis history was
> provided to the modern world by the historian of religions Mircea
> Eliade. He made 'history' as one of  the ways of looking at the past, by
> making 'history' the modern man's 'myth' and myth as the myth-believer's
> 'history'. I remember Levi Strauss asking his readers to imagine what would
> be the response of the myth-believing people to the 'history' . He says
> such people would respond by saying " Oh! That is what your mythology says!"
>
> 8. Interpretations of Ramayana, Mahabharata and Bhagavata as the concealed
> expressions of Vedantic, Kundalini-taantric and other such ideas has a long
> tradition in traditional Indian scholarship and shows the availability of
> views other than those of 'real' accounts of the past  towards mythologies
> in Indian tradition.
>
> 9. Viewing pur??ic narratives as v?d?rtha upabr?mha?a also is an outlook
> different from that of real accounts of the past towards those narratives.
> This outlook is very well established in the traditional Indian scholarship.
>
> 10. 'par?k?a priy? vai ivahi d?v?h pratyak?a dvi??h'  is a frequent
> expression in the br?mha?as and ?ra?yakas, which again is an evidence of
> the availability of 'non-real' perspectives towards 'deva-narratives'
> (myths) in the ?r?ti-literature itself.
>
> 11. In my PhD dissertation, I developed a model of myth-interpretation
> using the conceptual tools from the Vedic literature and showed that
> ancient and medieval Indian poets were aware of such understandings of the
> myth.
>
> 12. There at one place, I argued this way: Use of simple present for
> narrative past is a linguistic convention. Use of past tense verbs for
> 'eternality' is a converse process to this and this is what we find in
> the myths.
>
> Thanks for your patience.
>
> Regards,
>
> Nagaraj
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>
>> Thank you for these observations. I will add this:
>>
>> 1. In his Dhvany-aloka, Ananda-vardhana uses the term aucitya, ?fitness,
>> suitableness? in this sense: in order to inspire the proper rasa or
>> sentiment in an audience, reader, hearer etc, one may adjust or change some
>> ?historical? details of a story. One good example: the story of Shakuntala,
>> found in Mahabharata and then ?adjusted? for rasika effect by Kalidasa.
>>
>> 2. Apart from the license accorded by aucitya, acaryas and other
>> commentators may ?correct? shastric passages on theological, i.e.
>> siddhantic grounds, as in the case of Madhva ?correcting? the Mahabharata.
>> Similarly, the Bhagavata Purana ?corrects? various stories of
>> the Mahabharata, such as the death of the great King Pariksit. (It seems
>> like everyone corrects the Mahabharata!)
>>
>> 3. At least to some extent Vedic/Hindu belief in the cyclical, repetitive
>> nature of time certainly plays a role here. Imagine a poet who has observed
>> many times the passing of four seasons. The poet then writes an ode to
>> spring, or winter, etc. On the one hand, the poem does not seek to give a
>> ?scientific? metereological description of a specific spring or winter,
>> with hard numbers for every day and hour. On the other hand, the poem is a
>> poeticized, synthesized depiction of a real, objective phenomenon in the
>> world: seasons. Ditto of course for Vivaldi?s classic Four Seasons. I
>> suggest that sages, including shastra-krits, who believe in, or (from a
>> faithful standpoint) experience, endless yuga cycles, including endless
>> manvantaras, avataras, etc, give at times what they take to be a
>> poeticized, synthesized picture of yugas, manvantaras, avataras, divya-lila
>> etc. But like poets or composers who speak of seasons, these sages
>> generally, perhaps not always, believe that they are speaking of real
>> things, as much as Vivaldi certainly believed that four seasons exist.
>>
>> 4. It seems the truth of this matter thus lies somewhere between two
>> extremes:
>> First extreme: Vedic and Hindu thinkers believed that Shastras are
>> historical in exactly the same sense that modern academic historians
>> believe that a well researched, well written history book basically tells
>> an objective story.
>>  Second extreme: Vedic and Hindu thinkers had no sense of history, and
>> no sense that itihasa-purana is objective history.
>>
>> Thanks for your patience!
>> Best
>> Howard
>>
>> On Jul 14, 2014, at 12:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> That was my hunch. I do not think that there was a purva-paksha that
>> itihasa is not history and I also think that such a position was of general
>> concern at his time.
>>  You might want to reconsider your claim "Yet he accepts the basic
>> Mahabharata story as real history, in all its supernatural abundance" then.
>>
>> At a time when the category of 'history' itself is being interrogated ,
>> 'history' as a 'modern' category is being intensely scrutinized through
>> 'post-modern' tools, elevation of 'history' to a higher value vis-?-vis
>> myth and other narrative accounts of past is more and more being viewed as
>> a product of enlightenment age fascination for logical positivist
>> understandings, the tendency of an office to hang on to the obsolete
>> tendency of claiming the assumed superior status of 'history' to certain
>> narratives is what comes of the reported words of the new ICHR Chairman.
>>
>> Warm regards,
>>
>> Nagaraj
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 5:07 AM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Again, I think we need to first find evidence that Madhva engaged a
>>> purva-paksa notion that itihasa is not history, or that such a position was
>>> of general concern at his time.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Howard
>>>
>>> On Jul 13, 2014, at 2:09 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > "Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all
>>> its supernatural abundance"
>>> >
>>> >
>>>                                                                  -Howard
>>> Resnick
>>> >
>>> > This is really interesting. May I know the exact words used by Sri
>>> Madhvacharya with the meaning 'real history' ? That citation will help in
>>> tracing the history of the notion of 'real history' among pre-modern Indian
>>> writers.
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> >
>>> > Nagaraj
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>>> > Hyderabad-500044
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> > http://listinfo.indology.info
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>> Hyderabad-500044
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From palaniappa at aol.com  Thu Jul 17 06:12:44 2014
From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 14 02:12:44 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Br=C4=81hma=E1=B9=87a_and_Savar=E1=B9=87a?=
Message-ID: <8D16F9D41CB24DE-A08-26B80@webmail-va005.sysops.aol.com>





In an inscription of ca. 1009, Brahmin villages, Vaikh?nasa villages, and Savar?a villages are mentioned separately. (E. Hultzsch, the editor of the inscription corrects the reading of 'Cava??ar' as 'cama?ar' and interprets them as Jains. This correction was not necessary.) There are other inscriptions where individuals mentioned as Savar?a are listed with their Brahminical gotras and at least in one inscription a Savar?a is described as belonging to Bh?radv?ja gotra and Bodh?yana s?tra. One inscription mentions 32 Savar?as being given 32 house sites as an agrahara. These Savar?as seemed to have functioned as physicians. It is clear that they were Brahmins but are classified as separate from 'Br?hma?a'. K. V. Subrahmanya Aiyer mentions (without citing the specific reference) Y?davaprak??a as explaining in his work Vaijayanti that Savar?a was an offspring of a Brahmin father and a K?atriya mother. To me this explanation seems to be suspect. It looks like a section of Brahmins was willing to engage in professions such as being musicians, physicians, etc., notwithstanding any objections from the orthodox Vedic Brahmins who  seemed to have reserved for themselves the designation 'Br?hma?a' (without any modifier), at least in the beginning.  Inscriptions also differentiate Br??ma?a from ?iva-Br?h?a?a. (The Tamil epic Cilappatik?ram mentions the music-loving Brahmins as having their own quarters separate from Vedic Brahmins.)  This is similar to the adoption of the Tamil classical dance form by the Brahmins in the 20th century. In spite of the earlier objections from orthodox Brahmins, that dance form has become very popular among all Tamil Brahmins nowadays. Tamil Brahmins serving as physicians also seem to have gained acceptance from the orthodox over time. I would like to know if 'Savar?a' as a Brahmin was known to texts/inscriptions outside the Tamil region. 


Thanks in advance.


Regards,
Palaniappan





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From july2307 at yandex.ru  Thu Jul 17 07:09:14 2014
From: july2307 at yandex.ru (Dmitriy)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 14 11:09:14 +0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Br=C4=81hma=E1=B9=87a_and_Savar=E1=B9=87a?=
In-Reply-To: <8D16F9D41CB24DE-A08-26B80@webmail-va005.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <6935031405580954@web7m.yandex.ru>


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From olga.serbaeva at gmail.com  Thu Jul 17 10:26:56 2014
From: olga.serbaeva at gmail.com (olga serbaeva)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 14 12:26:56 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] position in Zurich
Message-ID: <CALOngcec1=oBaSBNp7KekpMeWDjXQx3-i1CVB5r7nPcUv3tP-A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Stefan,

Many thanks for your kind reply!
Please kindly post it on Indology.

Prof. Dr. Malinar (angelika.malinar at aoi.uzh.ch) should be contacted for any
questions concerning this position.
Please kindly contact me (olga.serbaeva at aoi.uzh.ch) for any technical
question.

With my best wishes,

Sincerely Yours,

Olga

-- 

Dr. Olga Serbaeva Saraogi
Asien-Orient-Institut, Abteilung Indologie

Universit?t Z?rich
R?mistr. 68
8001 Z?rich
Switzerland

+41 44 634 22 81


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu Jul 17 10:49:18 2014
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 14 06:49:18 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Br=C4=81hma=E1=B9=87a_and_Savar=E1=B9=87a?=
In-Reply-To: <8D16F9D41CB24DE-A08-26B80@webmail-va005.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdQ=-hQqU6DpeFvGsB44um4esbcjQ+bY+aW9dqQy9_fYw@mail.gmail.com>

The term savar?a referring to the progeny of a Brahmin father and a
K?atriya mother does occur in Dharma??stra texts and in later J?tinir?aya
texts.  See page 274 of the attached article by V N Jha on "Var?asa?kara in
the Dharma S?tras: Theory and Practice".

Madhav Deshpande


On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:12 AM, <palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:

>       In an inscription of ca. 1009, Brahmin villages, Vaikh?nasa
> villages, and Savar?a villages are mentioned separately. (E. Hultzsch, the
> editor of the inscription corrects the reading of 'Cava??ar' as 'cama?ar'
> and interprets them as Jains. This correction was not necessary.) There are
> other inscriptions where individuals mentioned as Savar?a are listed with
> their Brahminical gotras and at least in one inscription a Savar?a is
> described as belonging to Bh?radv?ja gotra and Bodh?yana s?tra. One
> inscription mentions 32 Savar?as being given 32 house sites as an agrahara.
> These Savar?as seemed to have functioned as physicians. It is clear that
> they were Brahmins but are classified as separate from 'Br?hma?a'. K. V.
> Subrahmanya Aiyer mentions (without citing the specific reference)
> Y?davaprak??a as explaining in his work Vaijayanti that Savar?a was an
> offspring of a Brahmin father and a K?atriya mother. To me this explanation
> seems to be suspect. It looks like a section of Brahmins was willing to
> engage in professions such as being musicians, physicians, etc.,
> notwithstanding any objections from the orthodox Vedic Brahmins who  seemed
> to have reserved for themselves the designation 'Br?hma?a' (without any
> modifier), at least in the beginning.  Inscriptions also differentiate
> Br??ma?a from ?iva-Br?h?a?a. (The Tamil epic Cilappatik?ram mentions the
> music-loving Brahmins as having their own quarters separate from Vedic
> Brahmins.)  This is similar to the adoption of the Tamil classical dance
> form by the Brahmins in the 20th century. In spite of the earlier
> objections from orthodox Brahmins, that dance form has become very popular
> among all Tamil Brahmins nowadays. Tamil Brahmins serving as physicians
> also seem to have gained acceptance from the orthodox over time. I would
> like to know if 'Savar?a' as a Brahmin was known to texts/inscriptions
> outside the Tamil region.
>
>  Thanks in advance.
>
>  Regards,
> Palaniappan
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu  Thu Jul 17 15:20:31 2014
From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 14 10:20:31 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Br=C4=81hma=E1=B9=87a_and_Savar=E1=B9=87a?=
In-Reply-To: <8D16F9D41CB24DE-A08-26B80@webmail-va005.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <13B168D4-A5BB-40BC-A983-FEB897D51DCA@uts.cc.utexas.edu>

There is textual support for the Vaijayant? definition of savar?a. See Artha??stra 3.7.20; Baudh?yan Dh. S?tra 1.8.16.6.

Patrick



On Jul 17, 2014, at 1:12 AM, palaniappa at aol.com wrote:

> In an inscription of ca. 1009, Brahmin villages, Vaikh?nasa villages, and Savar?a villages are mentioned separately. (E. Hultzsch, the editor of the inscription corrects the reading of 'Cava??ar' as 'cama?ar' and interprets them as Jains. This correction was not necessary.) There are other inscriptions where individuals mentioned as Savar?a are listed with their Brahminical gotras and at least in one inscription a Savar?a is described as belonging to Bh?radv?ja gotra and Bodh?yana s?tra. One inscription mentions 32 Savar?as being given 32 house sites as an agrahara. These Savar?as seemed to have functioned as physicians. It is clear that they were Brahmins but are classified as separate from 'Br?hma?a'. K. V. Subrahmanya Aiyer mentions (without citing the specific reference) Y?davaprak??a as explaining in his work Vaijayanti that Savar?a was an offspring of a Brahmin father and a K?atriya mother. To me this explanation seems to be suspect. It looks like a section of Brahmins was willing to engage in professions such as being musicians, physicians, etc., notwithstanding any objections from the orthodox Vedic Brahmins who  seemed to have reserved for themselves the designation 'Br?hma?a' (without any modifier), at least in the beginning.  Inscriptions also differentiate Br??ma?a from ?iva-Br?h?a?a. (The Tamil epic Cilappatik?ram mentions the music-loving Brahmins as having their own quarters separate from Vedic Brahmins.)  This is similar to the adoption of the Tamil classical dance form by the Brahmins in the 20th century. In spite of the earlier objections from orthodox Brahmins, that dance form has become very popular among all Tamil Brahmins nowadays. Tamil Brahmins serving as physicians also seem to have gained acceptance from the orthodox over time. I would like to know if 'Savar?a' as a Brahmin was known to texts/inscriptions outside the Tamil region. 
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info



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From hr at ivs.edu  Thu Jul 17 15:43:33 2014
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 14 11:43:33 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eY5uScBRHNcOHuZpRKNDLC6WgONwLvdpVvfPu8K9+dVKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CC77A488-FFA0-479D-AE01-F7A4374B6DBD@ivs.edu>

Thank you for these helpful points.
Best,
Howard

On Jul 15, 2014, at 3:35 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for bringing poetics into the discussion. There are many other 'tools' that help this 'history Vs myth' discussion.
>  
> 1. As for traditional Sanskrit poetics, dhvany?l?ka, in fact, maintains the autonomy of poet and his poetic creation by proclaiming
> "ap?r? k?vya sams?r? kavi r?kah praj?p?tih
> yath?smai r?chat? vi?vam tath?dam parivartat?"
>  
> 2. Another place where we find recognition of 'a??str?ya' elements  in poetry and proclamation of that as 'not wrong' in Rajashekhara's k?vyam?m?msa  while discussing his highly innovative categorization of kavisamaya.
>  
> kavisamaya? j?tidravyakriy?samayasth?pan? /
> a??str?yamalaukika? ca parampar?y?ta? yamarthamupanibadhnanti kavaya? sa kavisamaya? /
> "nanve?a do?a? /
>  
> In support of his 'nanve?a do?a?' , he quotes several previous scholars mentioning them as '?ch?ry?h' and 'y?yavar?y?h' which shows that such an awareness is older than Rajashekhara.
>  
> 3. The above is only about the distinction between the poetic world and the 'real' world. But this is not useful in discussing the awareness among ancient Indians about the distinction between 'mythical reality' and the 'real' reality. Such a distinction is articulated in matsya pur??a. ?atsyan?r?ya?a answers manu that his ?disr???i (mythical reality) is to be distinguished from the general sr???i ('real' reality).
>  
>  divyeyam?dis???istu rajogu?asamudbhav? /
> at?ndriyendriy? tadvad at?ndriya?ar?rik? // MatsP_4.3 //
> divyatejomay? bh?pa divyaj??nasamudbhav? /
> na martyairabhita? ?aky? vaktu? vai m??sacak?ubhi? MatsP_4.4//
>  
>  
> 4.. Viewing myth as an unquestionable account of the real happenings of the past was there with all the societies with myth-containing cultures including the Greeks. That in Greek society too, poets modified certain elements /portions of myths to suit their poetic works and those viewing myth as an unquestionable account of the real happenings of the past considered this to be 'lying about gods' is evident from Plato's prescription to banish poets from his dream commonwealth for this reason. 
>  
> 5. Scepticism towards myth too is very much ancient both in Greece and India. 
>  
> 6. Interestingly, it is only in the west that the intense defence of myth developed in Kant, and neo-Kantian philosophers such as Cassirer, in Jungian Psychoanalysis etc. 
>  
> 7. Particularly, understanding of Indian myth vis-?-vis history was provided to the modern world by the historian of religions Mircea Eliade. He made 'history' as one of  the ways of looking at the past, by making 'history' the modern man's 'myth' and myth as the myth-believer's 'history'. I remember Levi Strauss asking his readers to imagine what would be the response of the myth-believing people to the 'history' . He says such people would respond by saying " Oh! That is what your mythology says!"
>  
> 8. Interpretations of Ramayana, Mahabharata and Bhagavata as the concealed expressions of Vedantic, Kundalini-taantric and other such ideas has a long tradition in traditional Indian scholarship and shows the availability of views other than those of 'real' accounts of the past  towards mythologies in Indian tradition.
>  
> 9. Viewing pur??ic narratives as v?d?rtha upabr?mha?a also is an outlook different from that of real accounts of the past towards those narratives.  This outlook is very well established in the traditional Indian scholarship.
>  
> 10. 'par?k?a priy? vai ivahi d?v?h pratyak?a dvi??h'  is a frequent expression in the br?mha?as and ?ra?yakas, which again is an evidence of the availability of 'non-real' perspectives towards 'deva-narratives' (myths) in the ?r?ti-literature itself. 
>  
> 11. In my PhD dissertation, I developed a model of myth-interpretation using the conceptual tools from the Vedic literature and showed that ancient and medieval Indian poets were aware of such understandings of the myth.
>  
> 12. There at one place, I argued this way: Use of simple present for narrative past is a linguistic convention. Use of past tense verbs for 'eternality' is a converse process to this and this is what we find in the myths.
>  
> Thanks for your patience.
>  
> Regards,
>  
> Nagaraj
>  
>   
>  
>            
>  
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
> Thank you for these observations. I will add this:
> 
> 1. In his Dhvany-aloka, Ananda-vardhana uses the term aucitya, ?fitness, suitableness? in this sense: in order to inspire the proper rasa or sentiment in an audience, reader, hearer etc, one may adjust or change some ?historical? details of a story. One good example: the story of Shakuntala, found in Mahabharata and then ?adjusted? for rasika effect by Kalidasa. 
> 
> 2. Apart from the license accorded by aucitya, acaryas and other commentators may ?correct? shastric passages on theological, i.e. siddhantic grounds, as in the case of Madhva ?correcting? the Mahabharata. Similarly, the Bhagavata Purana ?corrects? various stories of the Mahabharata, such as the death of the great King Pariksit. (It seems like everyone corrects the Mahabharata!) 
> 
> 3. At least to some extent Vedic/Hindu belief in the cyclical, repetitive nature of time certainly plays a role here. Imagine a poet who has observed many times the passing of four seasons. The poet then writes an ode to spring, or winter, etc. On the one hand, the poem does not seek to give a ?scientific? metereological description of a specific spring or winter, with hard numbers for every day and hour. On the other hand, the poem is a poeticized, synthesized depiction of a real, objective phenomenon in the world: seasons. Ditto of course for Vivaldi?s classic Four Seasons. I suggest that sages, including shastra-krits, who believe in, or (from a faithful standpoint) experience, endless yuga cycles, including endless manvantaras, avataras, etc, give at times what they take to be a poeticized, synthesized picture of yugas, manvantaras, avataras, divya-lila etc. But like poets or composers who speak of seasons, these sages generally, perhaps not always, believe that they are speaking of real things, as much as Vivaldi certainly believed that four seasons exist.
> 
> 4. It seems the truth of this matter thus lies somewhere between two extremes:
> 	First extreme: Vedic and Hindu thinkers believed that Shastras are historical in exactly the same sense that modern academic historians believe that a well researched, well written history book basically tells an objective story.
> 	Second extreme: Vedic and Hindu thinkers had no sense of history, and no sense that itihasa-purana is objective history.
> 
> Thanks for your patience!
> Best
> Howard
> 	
> 
> On Jul 14, 2014, at 12:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> That was my hunch. I do not think that there was a purva-paksha that itihasa is not history and I also think that such a position was of general concern at his time.
>> You might want to reconsider your claim "Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all its supernatural abundance" then.
>>  
>> At a time when the category of 'history' itself is being interrogated , 'history' as a 'modern' category is being intensely scrutinized through 'post-modern' tools, elevation of 'history' to a higher value vis-?-vis myth and other narrative accounts of past is more and more being viewed as a product of enlightenment age fascination for logical positivist understandings, the tendency of an office to hang on to the obsolete tendency of claiming the assumed superior status of 'history' to certain narratives is what comes of the reported words of the new ICHR Chairman.
>>  
>> Warm regards,
>>  
>> Nagaraj 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 5:07 AM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>> Again, I think we need to first find evidence that Madhva engaged a purva-paksa notion that itihasa is not history, or that such a position was of general concern at his time.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Howard
>> 
>> On Jul 13, 2014, at 2:09 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > "Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all its supernatural abundance"
>> >
>> >                                                                                                                                        -Howard Resnick
>> >
>> > This is really interesting. May I know the exact words used by Sri Madhvacharya with the meaning 'real history' ? That citation will help in tracing the history of the notion of 'real history' among pre-modern Indian writers.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Nagaraj
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>> > Hyderabad-500044
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> > http://listinfo.indology.info
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>> Hyderabad-500044
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044



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From hr at ivs.edu  Thu Jul 17 16:11:56 2014
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 14 12:11:56 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
In-Reply-To: <CAEzwJrCQ4da5W7gKjkjJRf+jZr=1Xq=jzMzTbRPxmLYvYxjPjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2E8972B7-7BC2-4999-879F-A9F123B06C99@ivs.edu>

Your work sounds interesting.

Some contemporary sat-sangas seem to be oblivious to scholarly issues, including historicity, with members claiming for themselves very generous powers of interpretation. Other groups seem more rigorous.

I might suggest that you classify these sat-sanga groups in terms of their focus on, and attitude toward:
	a. insighter insights, whether scholarly, mystical, or whatever;
	b. ?outsider? academic scholarship 
	c. synthetic approaches combining insider insight and academic rigor.

Best,
Howard. 

On Jul 16, 2014, at 8:41 AM, patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com> wrote:

> In terms of comparing myth building and poetics has anyone looked at the discursive structure of contemporary satsaGgas held by yogis and gurus?
> 
> I have been trying to integrate elements of Sanskrit poetics into my framework for this very purpose. My close reading of poetics and aesthetics, particularly zAntarasa, resonate as having benefit for analysing the discourse of this particular field of practice.
> 
> I focus on the performativity of satsaGga comparing the guru and poet who use similar linguistic strategies to entertain and educate their audience. With the assistance of the subjunctive mood I argue the primary aim is to invoke the aesthetic appreciation of zAnta. However, satsaGga also serves many other purposes, one of which is to assist with the creation of potentially 'sublime and sacred worlds', which I believe is intimately linked to the contemporary practice of myth building at personal, communal and national levels. 
> 
> I find the direction of this thread to be reassuring, hinting to the possibility that at this early stage, the project might be on something of a 'right track'. I invite any suggestions as to how this framework could be developed. 
> 
> Best
> 
> Patrick
> 
> 
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Patrick McCartney 
> 
> PhD Candidate 
> School of Culture, History & Language
> College of the Asia-Pacific
> The Australian National University
> Canberra, Australia, 0200
> Rm 4.30 Baldessin Precinct Building
> 
> skype - psdmccartney
> Ph: +61 487 398 354
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfpCc8G_cUw&feature=related
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 9:35 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for bringing poetics into the discussion. There are many other 'tools' that help this 'history Vs myth' discussion.
>  
> 1. As for traditional Sanskrit poetics, dhvany?l?ka, in fact, maintains the autonomy of poet and his poetic creation by proclaiming
> "ap?r? k?vya sams?r? kavi r?kah praj?p?tih
> yath?smai r?chat? vi?vam tath?dam parivartat?"
>  
> 2. Another place where we find recognition of 'a??str?ya' elements  in poetry and proclamation of that as 'not wrong' in Rajashekhara's k?vyam?m?msa  while discussing his highly innovative categorization of kavisamaya.
>  
> kavisamaya? j?tidravyakriy?samayasth?pan? /
> a??str?yamalaukika? ca parampar?y?ta? yamarthamupanibadhnanti kavaya? sa kavisamaya? /
> "nanve?a do?a? /
>  
> In support of his 'nanve?a do?a?' , he quotes several previous scholars mentioning them as '?ch?ry?h' and 'y?yavar?y?h' which shows that such an awareness is older than Rajashekhara.
>  
> 3. The above is only about the distinction between the poetic world and the 'real' world. But this is not useful in discussing the awareness among ancient Indians about the distinction between 'mythical reality' and the 'real' reality. Such a distinction is articulated in matsya pur??a. ?atsyan?r?ya?a answers manu that his ?disr???i (mythical reality) is to be distinguished from the general sr???i ('real' reality).
>  
>  divyeyam?dis???istu rajogu?asamudbhav? /
> at?ndriyendriy? tadvad at?ndriya?ar?rik? // MatsP_4.3 //
> divyatejomay? bh?pa divyaj??nasamudbhav? /
> na martyairabhita? ?aky? vaktu? vai m??sacak?ubhi? MatsP_4.4//
>  
>  
> 4.. Viewing myth as an unquestionable account of the real happenings of the past was there with all the societies with myth-containing cultures including the Greeks. That in Greek society too, poets modified certain elements /portions of myths to suit their poetic works and those viewing myth as an unquestionable account of the real happenings of the past considered this to be 'lying about gods' is evident from Plato's prescription to banish poets from his dream commonwealth for this reason. 
>  
> 5. Scepticism towards myth too is very much ancient both in Greece and India. 
>  
> 6. Interestingly, it is only in the west that the intense defence of myth developed in Kant, and neo-Kantian philosophers such as Cassirer, in Jungian Psychoanalysis etc. 
>  
> 7. Particularly, understanding of Indian myth vis-?-vis history was provided to the modern world by the historian of religions Mircea Eliade. He made 'history' as one of  the ways of looking at the past, by making 'history' the modern man's 'myth' and myth as the myth-believer's 'history'. I remember Levi Strauss asking his readers to imagine what would be the response of the myth-believing people to the 'history' . He says such people would respond by saying " Oh! That is what your mythology says!"
>  
> 8. Interpretations of Ramayana, Mahabharata and Bhagavata as the concealed expressions of Vedantic, Kundalini-taantric and other such ideas has a long tradition in traditional Indian scholarship and shows the availability of views other than those of 'real' accounts of the past  towards mythologies in Indian tradition.
>  
> 9. Viewing pur??ic narratives as v?d?rtha upabr?mha?a also is an outlook different from that of real accounts of the past towards those narratives.  This outlook is very well established in the traditional Indian scholarship.
>  
> 10. 'par?k?a priy? vai ivahi d?v?h pratyak?a dvi??h'  is a frequent expression in the br?mha?as and ?ra?yakas, which again is an evidence of the availability of 'non-real' perspectives towards 'deva-narratives' (myths) in the ?r?ti-literature itself. 
>  
> 11. In my PhD dissertation, I developed a model of myth-interpretation using the conceptual tools from the Vedic literature and showed that ancient and medieval Indian poets were aware of such understandings of the myth.
>  
> 12. There at one place, I argued this way: Use of simple present for narrative past is a linguistic convention. Use of past tense verbs for 'eternality' is a converse process to this and this is what we find in the myths.
>  
> Thanks for your patience.
>  
> Regards,
>  
> Nagaraj
>  
>   
>  
>            
>  
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
> Thank you for these observations. I will add this:
> 
> 1. In his Dhvany-aloka, Ananda-vardhana uses the term aucitya, ?fitness, suitableness? in this sense: in order to inspire the proper rasa or sentiment in an audience, reader, hearer etc, one may adjust or change some ?historical? details of a story. One good example: the story of Shakuntala, found in Mahabharata and then ?adjusted? for rasika effect by Kalidasa. 
> 
> 2. Apart from the license accorded by aucitya, acaryas and other commentators may ?correct? shastric passages on theological, i.e. siddhantic grounds, as in the case of Madhva ?correcting? the Mahabharata. Similarly, the Bhagavata Purana ?corrects? various stories of the Mahabharata, such as the death of the great King Pariksit. (It seems like everyone corrects the Mahabharata!) 
> 
> 3. At least to some extent Vedic/Hindu belief in the cyclical, repetitive nature of time certainly plays a role here. Imagine a poet who has observed many times the passing of four seasons. The poet then writes an ode to spring, or winter, etc. On the one hand, the poem does not seek to give a ?scientific? metereological description of a specific spring or winter, with hard numbers for every day and hour. On the other hand, the poem is a poeticized, synthesized depiction of a real, objective phenomenon in the world: seasons. Ditto of course for Vivaldi?s classic Four Seasons. I suggest that sages, including shastra-krits, who believe in, or (from a faithful standpoint) experience, endless yuga cycles, including endless manvantaras, avataras, etc, give at times what they take to be a poeticized, synthesized picture of yugas, manvantaras, avataras, divya-lila etc. But like poets or composers who speak of seasons, these sages generally, perhaps not always, believe that they are speaking of real things, as much as Vivaldi certainly believed that four seasons exist.
> 
> 4. It seems the truth of this matter thus lies somewhere between two extremes:
> 	First extreme: Vedic and Hindu thinkers believed that Shastras are historical in exactly the same sense that modern academic historians believe that a well researched, well written history book basically tells an objective story.
> 	Second extreme: Vedic and Hindu thinkers had no sense of history, and no sense that itihasa-purana is objective history.
> 
> Thanks for your patience!
> Best
> Howard
> 	
> 
> On Jul 14, 2014, at 12:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> That was my hunch. I do not think that there was a purva-paksha that itihasa is not history and I also think that such a position was of general concern at his time.
>> You might want to reconsider your claim "Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all its supernatural abundance" then.
>>  
>> At a time when the category of 'history' itself is being interrogated , 'history' as a 'modern' category is being intensely scrutinized through 'post-modern' tools, elevation of 'history' to a higher value vis-?-vis myth and other narrative accounts of past is more and more being viewed as a product of enlightenment age fascination for logical positivist understandings, the tendency of an office to hang on to the obsolete tendency of claiming the assumed superior status of 'history' to certain narratives is what comes of the reported words of the new ICHR Chairman.
>>  
>> Warm regards,
>>  
>> Nagaraj 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 5:07 AM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>> Again, I think we need to first find evidence that Madhva engaged a purva-paksa notion that itihasa is not history, or that such a position was of general concern at his time.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Howard
>> 
>> On Jul 13, 2014, at 2:09 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > "Yet he accepts the basic Mahabharata story as real history, in all its supernatural abundance"
>> >
>> >                                                                                                                                        -Howard Resnick
>> >
>> > This is really interesting. May I know the exact words used by Sri Madhvacharya with the meaning 'real history' ? That citation will help in tracing the history of the notion of 'real history' among pre-modern Indian writers.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Nagaraj
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>> > Hyderabad-500044
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> > http://listinfo.indology.info
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>> Hyderabad-500044
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
> 



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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Thu Jul 17 20:17:46 2014
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 14 01:47:46 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] BrahmaNa and SavarNa
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebie_O8G8PkTJf3Sqho5wrPXeSfPXxFdFiyGUGrjb+wwQ@mail.gmail.com>

The VN Jha article pp 274 has the following lines:


"Accordingly, Baudhayanal)a nd Gautama2), as inter-preted by Haradatta,
state that the offspring of a brahmana from a Ksatriyaw ife is as much a
savarnaa nd a brahmanaa s is a son begotten from a savarya wife".



"as much a savarna " does not help to understand savarNa as a separate
category than brahmaNa as found in the inscription under discussion.



Regards,

Nagaraj


-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044


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From palaniappa at aol.com  Thu Jul 17 20:27:57 2014
From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 14 16:27:57 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Br=C4=81hma=E1=B9=87a_and_Savar=E1=B9=87a?=
Message-ID: <8D17014BACE2DBB-2C18-2E363@webmail-d211.sysops.aol.com>


Thank you for the information. This is interesting. Given that Savar?as are most often seen as physicians, I would have expected savar?a-v?tti to be glossed as a grant for the livelihood of a physician instead of a scribe. Is the posted interpretation given by Sircar or T. N. Subramanian? Is there any reference to an inscription or SITI reference?


Regards,
Palaniappan



-----Original Message-----
From: Dmitriy <july2307 at yandex.ru>
To: indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Thu, Jul 17, 2014 2:09 am
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Br?hma?a and Savar?a


 
Possibly, it is a question of a rather late inscriptions.
In any case, I didn't find "savarNa" mentions in my base (and don't remember such definitions) in texts of inscriptions till the V-VIII centuries.
Interestingly, that D. Ch. Sircar in his Epigraphical Glossary mentions savarNa only once (savarNa-vRtti = profession of writing the document).
And just refers to a South Indian Temple Inscriptions by T.N. Subramanian
 
Dmitriy N. Lielukhine
Oriental Institute
Moscow
http://indepigr.narod.ru/index_1.htm
 
17.07.2014, 10:13, "palaniappa at aol.com" <palaniappa at aol.com>:




In an inscription of ca. 1009, Brahmin villages, Vaikh?nasa villages, and Savar?a villages are mentioned separately. (E. Hultzsch, the editor of the inscription corrects the reading of 'Cava??ar' as 'cama?ar' and interprets them as Jains. This correction was not necessary.) There are other inscriptions where individuals mentioned as Savar?a are listed with their Brahminical gotras and at least in one inscription a Savar?a is described as belonging to Bh?radv?ja gotra and Bodh?yana s?tra. One inscription mentions 32 Savar?as being given 32 house sites as an agrahara. These Savar?as seemed to have functioned as physicians. It is clear that they were Brahmins but are classified as separate from 'Br?hma?a'. K. V. Subrahmanya Aiyer mentions (without citing the specific reference) Y?davaprak??a as explaining in his work Vaijayanti that Savar?a was an offspring of a Brahmin father and a K?atriya mother. To me this explanation seems to be suspect. It looks like a section of Brahmins was willing to engage in professions such as being musicians, physicians, etc., notwithstanding any objections from the orthodox Vedic Brahmins who  seemed to have reserved for themselves the designation 'Br?hma?a' (without any modifier), at least in the beginning.  Inscriptions also differentiate Br??ma?a from ?iva-Br?h?a?a. (The Tamil epic Cilappatik?ram mentions the music-loving Brahmins as having their own quarters separate from Vedic Brahmins.)  This is similar to the adoption of the Tamil classical dance form by the Brahmins in the 20th century. In spite of the earlier objections from orthodox Brahmins, that dance form has become very popular among all Tamil Brahmins nowadays. Tamil Brahmins serving as physicians also seem to have gained acceptance from the orthodox over time. I would like to know if 'Savar?a' as a Brahmin was known to texts/inscriptions outside the Tamil region. 

 
Thanks in advance.

 
Regards,
Palaniappan



,
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info

 



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From manufrancis at gmail.com  Thu Jul 17 21:07:28 2014
From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 14 23:07:28 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Br=C4=81hma=E1=B9=87a_and_Savar=E1=B9=87a?=
In-Reply-To: <8D17014BACE2DBB-2C18-2E363@webmail-d211.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CANVHsm4B6i5fCBOBcjJ45s=MsL7zVz4qS+AcJZjFV33FXN_=tw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Palaniappan,
I find in my files 10 hits of inscriptions mentioned in the ARE that use
the word savar.na. I have not checked all, but most are from TN and indeed
seem to confirm that this word is used mostly for physicians.
I can check thoroughly, if needed.
Best.
--

Emmanuel Francis
Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR
8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris)
http://ceias.ehess.fr/
http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725
http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/
Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950,
Universit?t Hamburg)
http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html
https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis


On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:27 PM, <palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:

>  Thank you for the information. This is interesting. Given that Savar?as
> are most often seen as physicians, I would have expected savar?a-v?tti to
> be glossed as a grant for the livelihood of a physician instead of a
> scribe. Is the posted interpretation given by Sircar or T. N. Subramanian?
> Is there any reference to an inscription or SITI reference?
>
>  Regards,
> Palaniappan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dmitriy <july2307 at yandex.ru>
> To: indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> Sent: Thu, Jul 17, 2014 2:09 am
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Br?hma?a and Savar?a
>
>
> Possibly, it is a question of a rather late inscriptions.
> In any case, I didn't find "savarNa" mentions in my base (and don't
> remember such definitions) in texts of inscriptions till the V-VIII
> centuries.
> Interestingly, that D. Ch. Sircar in his Epigraphical Glossary mentions
> savarNa only once (savarNa-vRtti = profession of writing the document).
> And just refers to a South Indian Temple Inscriptions by T.N. Subramanian
>
> Dmitriy N. Lielukhine
> Oriental Institute
> Moscow
> http://indepigr.narod.ru/index_1.htm
>
> 17.07.2014, 10:13, "palaniappa at aol.com" <palaniappa at aol.com>:
>
>     In an inscription of ca. 1009, Brahmin villages, Vaikh?nasa villages,
> and Savar?a villages are mentioned separately. (E. Hultzsch, the editor of
> the inscription corrects the reading of 'Cava??ar' as 'cama?ar' and
> interprets them as Jains. This correction was not necessary.) There are
> other inscriptions where individuals mentioned as Savar?a are listed with
> their Brahminical gotras and at least in one inscription a Savar?a is
> described as belonging to Bh?radv?ja gotra and Bodh?yana s?tra. One
> inscription mentions 32 Savar?as being given 32 house sites as an agrahara.
> These Savar?as seemed to have functioned as physicians. It is clear that
> they were Brahmins but are classified as separate from 'Br?hma?a'. K. V.
> Subrahmanya Aiyer mentions (without citing the specific reference)
> Y?davaprak??a as explaining in his work Vaijayanti that Savar?a was an
> offspring of a Brahmin father and a K?atriya mother. To me this explanation
> seems to be suspect. It looks like a section of Brahmins was willing to
> engage in professions such as being musicians, physicians, etc.,
> notwithstanding any objections from the orthodox Vedic Brahmins who  seemed
> to have reserved for themselves the designation 'Br?hma?a' (without any
> modifier), at least in the beginning.  Inscriptions also differentiate
> Br??ma?a from ?iva-Br?h?a?a. (The Tamil epic Cilappatik?ram mentions the
> music-loving Brahmins as having their own quarters separate from Vedic
> Brahmins.)  This is similar to the adoption of the Tamil classical dance
> form by the Brahmins in the 20th century. In spite of the earlier
> objections from orthodox Brahmins, that dance form has become very popular
> among all Tamil Brahmins nowadays. Tamil Brahmins serving as physicians
> also seem to have gained acceptance from the orthodox over time. I would
> like to know if 'Savar?a' as a Brahmin was known to texts/inscriptions
> outside the Tamil region.
>
>  Thanks in advance.
>
>  Regards,
> Palaniappan
>     ,
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>
>  _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttp://listinfo.indology.info
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From slindqui at mail.smu.edu  Thu Jul 17 22:49:03 2014
From: slindqui at mail.smu.edu (Lindquist, Steven)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 14 22:49:03 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] CONF: CONF: Affirmative Action Policies and Higher Education in India, SMU (Dallas, TX), Sept. 6, 2014
Message-ID: <CFEDBD0B.F423%slindqui@smu.edu>

Dear all,

Apologies for the x-posting.  Please see the announcement below for our Annual South Asia Conference at SMU.

My best,

Steven


STEVEN LINDQUIST, PH.D.
ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, RELIGIOUS STUDIES
DIRECTOR, GLOBAL AND REGIONAL STUDIES INITIATIVE
DIRECTOR, ASIAN STUDIES
____________________

Dedman College of Humanities and Sciences, SMU
PO Box 750202 | Dallas | TX | 75275
Email: slindqui at smu.edu<mailto:slindqui at smu.edu>
Web: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui




AFFIRMATIVE ACTION POLICIES AND HIGHER EDUCATION IN INDIA

A conference jointly presented by Asian Studies (Southern Methodist University) and the South Asia Research and Information Institute (Dallas).

Saturday, September 6, 2014
9:00 AM - 5:00 PM
McCord Auditorium, Dallas Hall, Southern Methodist University

Marc Galanter, JD
University of Wisconsin - Madison
Title: TBA

Ashwini Deshpande, Ph.D.
Delhi School of Economics
"Caste Disparities, Discrimination and Affirmative Action: Two Stories from Tamil Nadu and Gujarat?

Guilhem Cassan, Ph.D.
The University of Namur, Belgium
"Quantifying the Effect of Reservations for Low Castes on Educational Attainment"

Veronica Frisancho, Ph.D.
Inter-American Development Bank
"Affirmative Action in Higher Education in India: Targeting, Catch Up, and Mismatch"

Ajantha Subramanian, Ph.D.
Harvard University
"The Meritocrats: the Indian Institutes of Technology and the Social Life of Caste"

Discussant:
Prathiba Natesan, Ph.D.
University of North Texas


Conference is free, but registration is required by August 23rd (please email: affirmative at sarii.org<mailto:affirmative at sarii.org>)
Abstracts and further info will be available at www.smu.edu/asianstudies<http://www.smu.edu/asianstudies> and www.sarii.org<http://www.sarii.org/>



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From palaniappa at aol.com  Thu Jul 17 23:41:08 2014
From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 14 19:41:08 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Br=C4=81hma=E1=B9=87a_and_Savar=E1=B9=87a?=
Message-ID: <8D1702FB791E853-2C18-2F6C2@webmail-d211.sysops.aol.com>








Dear Dr. Deshpande,


Thank you very much for the paper by Jha.


It is interesting that Haradatta who interpreted the Baudh?yana and Gautama dharmas?tra texts was from the Tamil country.


Regards,
Palaniappan


-----Original Message-----
From: Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
To: palaniappa <palaniappa at aol.com>
Cc: indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Thu, Jul 17, 2014 5:49 am
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Br?hma?a and Savar?a


The term savar?a referring to the progeny of a Brahmin father and a K?atriya mother does occur in Dharma??stra texts and in later J?tinir?aya texts.  See page 274 of the attached article by V N Jha on "Var?asa?kara in the Dharma S?tras: Theory and Practice".


Madhav Deshpande




On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:12 AM,  <palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:





In an inscription of ca. 1009, Brahmin villages, Vaikh?nasa villages, and Savar?a villages are mentioned separately. (E. Hultzsch, the editor of the inscription corrects the reading of 'Cava??ar' as 'cama?ar' and interprets them as Jains. This correction was not necessary.) There are other inscriptions where individuals mentioned as Savar?a are listed with their Brahminical gotras and at least in one inscription a Savar?a is described as belonging to Bh?radv?ja gotra and Bodh?yana s?tra. One inscription mentions 32 Savar?as being given 32 house sites as an agrahara. These Savar?as seemed to have functioned as physicians. It is clear that they were Brahmins but are classified as separate from 'Br?hma?a'. K. V. Subrahmanya Aiyer mentions (without citing the specific reference) Y?davaprak??a as explaining in his work Vaijayanti that Savar?a was an offspring of a Brahmin father and a K?atriya mother. To me this explanation seems to be suspect. It looks like a section of Brahmins was willing to engage in professions such as being musicians, physicians, etc., notwithstanding any objections from the orthodox Vedic Brahmins who  seemed to have reserved for themselves the designation 'Br?hma?a' (without any modifier), at least in the beginning.  Inscriptions also differentiate Br??ma?a from ?iva-Br?h?a?a. (The Tamil epic Cilappatik?ram mentions the music-loving Brahmins as having their own quarters separate from Vedic Brahmins.)  This is similar to the adoption of the Tamil classical dance form by the Brahmins in the 20th century. In spite of the earlier objections from orthodox Brahmins, that dance form has become very popular among all Tamil Brahmins nowadays. Tamil Brahmins serving as physicians also seem to have gained acceptance from the orthodox over time. I would like to know if 'Savar?a' as a Brahmin was known to texts/inscriptions outside the Tamil region. 


Thanks in advance.


Regards,
Palaniappan




_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info






-- 
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA











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From palaniappa at aol.com  Thu Jul 17 23:52:11 2014
From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 14 19:52:11 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Br=C4=81hma=E1=B9=87a_and_Savar=E1=B9=87a?=
In-Reply-To: <CANVHsm4B6i5fCBOBcjJ45s=MsL7zVz4qS+AcJZjFV33FXN_=tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8D1703142D9DCF3-2C18-2F788@webmail-d211.sysops.aol.com>

Dear Manu,



Thanks for confirming my understanding of the epigraphic data.


It is interesting that we seem to have no references to Savar?as outside the Tamil country while we do have references to Amba?thas in the north.


The origin of Savar?as given by the Dharmas?tras is not convincing to me for the following reason. There were no 'native' K?atriyas in the Tamil country. Even if one considers the Tamil kings who have gone through the Hira?yagarbha ceremony to be K?atriyas, I do not know of any evidence for a large number of Tamil (C??a and P???iya) royal women marrying brahmins to produce a class of Savar?as. On the other hand, in Kerala, we have Nambudiri brahmins marrying princesses to produce offsprings who were considered K?atriyas and not Br?hma?as or Savar?as. If these Savar?as had migrated from north of Tamil Nadu, there should have been some evidence for their presence there. But we do not seem to have any such data. 


What is interesting is that in a 13th century inscription, one Savar?a is described as a cook in the Madurai temple. But his village was Maruttuvakku?i (meaning 'village of physicians'). This suggests that even though his ancestors were probably physicians, he had taken up employment in the Madurai temple as a cook. If he had not been considered a Br?hma?a in practice, I do not think he would have been appointed as a cook in this famous brahminical temple. Today we hear of no Savar?as in the Tamil country.


As for 'Amba??ha', we have an 'Amba??ha' translated by Hultzsch as 'barber' (based on the modern usage). But this Amba??ha had the title ca?a?kavi (Tamilized form of '?a?a?gavid') which was usually associated with Brahmins in many inscriptions. 


This seems to suggest that while the Dharmas?tras might have come up with theoretical names for possible permutations and combinations of var?as and their derivatives, at least in the Tamil country, between 11th and 13th centuries Savar?a and Amba??ha seem to have referred to Brahmins who hailed from families of physicians. 


If you have information related to the inscription mentioning Savar?a-v?tti, that will be wonderful. I would also appreciate if you have any information on the Savar?as engaged in other occupations.


Thanks


Regards,
Palaniappan



-----Original Message-----
From: Manu Francis <manufrancis at gmail.com>
To: palaniappa <palaniappa at aol.com>
Cc: july2307 <july2307 at yandex.ru>; Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Thu, Jul 17, 2014 4:07 pm
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Br?hma?a and Savar?a



Dear Palaniappan,
I find in my files 10 hits of inscriptions mentioned in the ARE that use the word savar.na. I have not checked all, but most are from TN and indeed seem to confirm that this word is used mostly for physicians.

I can check thoroughly, if needed.

Best.
--



Emmanuel Francis
Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris)
http://ceias.ehess.fr/
http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725
http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/
Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg)
http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html
https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis




On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:27 PM,  <palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:


Thank you for the information. This is interesting. Given that Savar?as are most often seen as physicians, I would have expected savar?a-v?tti to be glossed as a grant for the livelihood of a physician instead of a scribe. Is the posted interpretation given by Sircar or T. N. Subramanian? Is there any reference to an inscription or SITI reference?


Regards,
Palaniappan



-----Original Message-----
From: Dmitriy <july2307 at yandex.ru>
To: indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Thu, Jul 17, 2014 2:09 am
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Br?hma?a and Savar?a



 
Possibly, it is a question of a rather late inscriptions.
In any case, I didn't find "savarNa" mentions in my base (and don't remember such definitions) in texts of inscriptions till the V-VIII centuries.
Interestingly, that D. Ch. Sircar in his Epigraphical Glossary mentions savarNa only once (savarNa-vRtti = profession of writing the document).
And just refers to a South Indian Temple Inscriptions by T.N. Subramanian
 
Dmitriy N. Lielukhine
Oriental Institute
Moscow
http://indepigr.narod.ru/index_1.htm
 
17.07.2014, 10:13, "palaniappa at aol.com" <palaniappa at aol.com>:





In an inscription of ca. 1009, Brahmin villages, Vaikh?nasa villages, and Savar?a villages are mentioned separately. (E. Hultzsch, the editor of the inscription corrects the reading of 'Cava??ar' as 'cama?ar' and interprets them as Jains. This correction was not necessary.) There are other inscriptions where individuals mentioned as Savar?a are listed with their Brahminical gotras and at least in one inscription a Savar?a is described as belonging to Bh?radv?ja gotra and Bodh?yana s?tra. One inscription mentions 32 Savar?as being given 32 house sites as an agrahara. These Savar?as seemed to have functioned as physicians. It is clear that they were Brahmins but are classified as separate from 'Br?hma?a'. K. V. Subrahmanya Aiyer mentions (without citing the specific reference) Y?davaprak??a as explaining in his work Vaijayanti that Savar?a was an offspring of a Brahmin father and a K?atriya mother. To me this explanation seems to be suspect. It looks like a section of Brahmins was willing to engage in professions such as being musicians, physicians, etc., notwithstanding any objections from the orthodox Vedic Brahmins who  seemed to have reserved for themselves the designation 'Br?hma?a' (without any modifier), at least in the beginning.  Inscriptions also differentiate Br??ma?a from ?iva-Br?h?a?a. (The Tamil epic Cilappatik?ram mentions the music-loving Brahmins as having their own quarters separate from Vedic Brahmins.)  This is similar to the adoption of the Tamil classical dance form by the Brahmins in the 20th century. In spite of the earlier objections from orthodox Brahmins, that dance form has become very popular among all Tamil Brahmins nowadays. Tamil Brahmins serving as physicians also seem to have gained acceptance from the orthodox over time. I would like to know if 'Savar?a' as a Brahmin was known to texts/inscriptions outside the Tamil region. 


 
Thanks in advance.

 
Regards,
Palaniappan





,
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info




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From palaniappa at aol.com  Fri Jul 18 01:52:48 2014
From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 14 21:52:48 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Br=C4=81hma=E1=B9=87a_and_Savar=E1=B9=87a?=
In-Reply-To: <8D1703142D9DCF3-2C18-2F788@webmail-d211.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8D170421C429713-2C18-2FFFD@webmail-d211.sysops.aol.com>

Sircar's book is available on the web. 


See http://books.google.com/books?id=pySCGvdyYLIC&pg=PA307&lpg=PA307&dq=savarna+vrtti&source=bl&ots=2sEsWVj58k&sig=ri-rdschpgQjXKkyx6askCGiw-w&hl=en&sa=X&ei=InrIU6zhO8qHyASRhYHgDg&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=savarna%20vrtti&f=false


It does not give a specific reference in SITI. 



On the other hand, Tami?k Kalve??uc Collakar?ti (Glossary of Tamil Inscriptions) published by Santi Sadhana, explains 'savar?a virutti' as the land endowed for physicians based on an inscription of 1462. However, the same work glosses 'sava??ar' as Buddhists and Jains. In my opinion this seems to be based on the uncalled-for interpretation of 'sava??ar' as '?rama?ar' by Hultzsch.

Regards,
Palaniappan


-----Original Message-----
From: palaniappa <palaniappa at aol.com>
To: manufrancis <manufrancis at gmail.com>
Cc: july2307 <july2307 at yandex.ru>; indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Thu, Jul 17, 2014 6:52 pm
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Br?hma?a and Savar?a


Dear Manu,



Thanks for confirming my understanding of the epigraphic data.


It is interesting that we seem to have no references to Savar?as outside the Tamil country while we do have references to Amba?thas in the north.


The origin of Savar?as given by the Dharmas?tras is not convincing to me for the following reason. There were no 'native' K?atriyas in the Tamil country. Even if one considers the Tamil kings who have gone through the Hira?yagarbha ceremony to be K?atriyas, I do not know of any evidence for a large number of Tamil (C??a and P???iya) royal women marrying brahmins to produce a class of Savar?as. On the other hand, in Kerala, we have Nambudiri brahmins marrying princesses to produce offsprings who were considered K?atriyas and not Br?hma?as or Savar?as. If these Savar?as had migrated from north of Tamil Nadu, there should have been some evidence for their presence there. But we do not seem to have any such data. 


What is interesting is that in a 13th century inscription, one Savar?a is described as a cook in the Madurai temple. But his village was Maruttuvakku?i (meaning 'village of physicians'). This suggests that even though his ancestors were probably physicians, he had taken up employment in the Madurai temple as a cook. If he had not been considered a Br?hma?a in practice, I do not think he would have been appointed as a cook in this famous brahminical temple. Today we hear of no Savar?as in the Tamil country.


As for 'Amba??ha', we have an 'Amba??ha' translated by Hultzsch as 'barber' (based on the modern usage). But this Amba??ha had the title ca?a?kavi (Tamilized form of '?a?a?gavid') which was usually associated with Brahmins in many inscriptions. 


This seems to suggest that while the Dharmas?tras might have come up with theoretical names for possible permutations and combinations of var?as and their derivatives, at least in the Tamil country, between 11th and 13th centuries Savar?a and Amba??ha seem to have referred to Brahmins who hailed from families of physicians. 


If you have information related to the inscription mentioning Savar?a-v?tti, that will be wonderful. I would also appreciate if you have any information on the Savar?as engaged in other occupations.


Thanks


Regards,
Palaniappan



-----Original Message-----
From: Manu Francis <manufrancis at gmail.com>
To: palaniappa <palaniappa at aol.com>
Cc: july2307 <july2307 at yandex.ru>; Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Thu, Jul 17, 2014 4:07 pm
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Br?hma?a and Savar?a



Dear Palaniappan,
I find in my files 10 hits of inscriptions mentioned in the ARE that use the word savar.na. I have not checked all, but most are from TN and indeed seem to confirm that this word is used mostly for physicians.

I can check thoroughly, if needed.

Best.
--



Emmanuel Francis
Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris)
http://ceias.ehess.fr/
http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725
http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/
Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg)
http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html
https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis




On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:27 PM,  <palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:


Thank you for the information. This is interesting. Given that Savar?as are most often seen as physicians, I would have expected savar?a-v?tti to be glossed as a grant for the livelihood of a physician instead of a scribe. Is the posted interpretation given by Sircar or T. N. Subramanian? Is there any reference to an inscription or SITI reference?


Regards,
Palaniappan



-----Original Message-----
From: Dmitriy <july2307 at yandex.ru>
To: indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Thu, Jul 17, 2014 2:09 am
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Br?hma?a and Savar?a



 
Possibly, it is a question of a rather late inscriptions.
In any case, I didn't find "savarNa" mentions in my base (and don't remember such definitions) in texts of inscriptions till the V-VIII centuries.
Interestingly, that D. Ch. Sircar in his Epigraphical Glossary mentions savarNa only once (savarNa-vRtti = profession of writing the document).
And just refers to a South Indian Temple Inscriptions by T.N. Subramanian
 
Dmitriy N. Lielukhine
Oriental Institute
Moscow
http://indepigr.narod.ru/index_1.htm
 
17.07.2014, 10:13, "palaniappa at aol.com" <palaniappa at aol.com>:





In an inscription of ca. 1009, Brahmin villages, Vaikh?nasa villages, and Savar?a villages are mentioned separately. (E. Hultzsch, the editor of the inscription corrects the reading of 'Cava??ar' as 'cama?ar' and interprets them as Jains. This correction was not necessary.) There are other inscriptions where individuals mentioned as Savar?a are listed with their Brahminical gotras and at least in one inscription a Savar?a is described as belonging to Bh?radv?ja gotra and Bodh?yana s?tra. One inscription mentions 32 Savar?as being given 32 house sites as an agrahara. These Savar?as seemed to have functioned as physicians. It is clear that they were Brahmins but are classified as separate from 'Br?hma?a'. K. V. Subrahmanya Aiyer mentions (without citing the specific reference) Y?davaprak??a as explaining in his work Vaijayanti that Savar?a was an offspring of a Brahmin father and a K?atriya mother. To me this explanation seems to be suspect. It looks like a section of Brahmins was willing to engage in professions such as being musicians, physicians, etc., notwithstanding any objections from the orthodox Vedic Brahmins who  seemed to have reserved for themselves the designation 'Br?hma?a' (without any modifier), at least in the beginning.  Inscriptions also differentiate Br??ma?a from ?iva-Br?h?a?a. (The Tamil epic Cilappatik?ram mentions the music-loving Brahmins as having their own quarters separate from Vedic Brahmins.)  This is similar to the adoption of the Tamil classical dance form by the Brahmins in the 20th century. In spite of the earlier objections from orthodox Brahmins, that dance form has become very popular among all Tamil Brahmins nowadays. Tamil Brahmins serving as physicians also seem to have gained acceptance from the orthodox over time. I would like to know if 'Savar?a' as a Brahmin was known to texts/inscriptions outside the Tamil region. 


 
Thanks in advance.

 
Regards,
Palaniappan





,
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info




_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info

 



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Fri Jul 18 09:50:59 2014
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 14 09:50:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Braudel postdoctoral fellowships
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED03746A0D4@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

The Fernand Braudel Postdoctoral Fellowship competition has now been announced. The fellowship
enables recent doctorates in all fields of the social sciences and humanities to spend a research year
affiliated with a suitable institution in France. Information regarding the fellowship including
application procedures in English are available here:

http://www.fmsh.fr/en/c/5803

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________



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From andra.kleb at gmail.com  Fri Jul 18 10:11:44 2014
From: andra.kleb at gmail.com (Andrey Klebanov)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 14 12:11:44 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] MSS libraries: Jaipur & Ujjain
Message-ID: <B5956DF4-3323-4CD7-A04C-301C67202EB6@googlemail.com>

Dear members of the list, 

I would be very thankful, if anyone of you could help me to establish contact with the MSS libraries in Jaipur (mainly the one in the City Palace, but also, if there is one, in the Amber Fort) and in Ujjain (in the Scindia Oriental Institute). I would be, furthermore, most obliged for any additional infos (or "tips and tricks") on these collections' policies concerning copying/ photographing the MSS.

best wishes, 
Andrey 




From klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi  Fri Jul 18 12:02:52 2014
From: klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 14 15:02:52 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Bopp's Hidimba
Message-ID: <3482C790-50B8-49B6-8B87-331D3DE12B6E@helsinki.fi>

Dear colleagues,
does anybody have easy access to:
 F. Bopp, Ardschuna?s Reise zu Indra?s Himmel nebst anderen Episoden des Maha?Bharata . Zweite durchgesehene Ausgabe, Berlin 1868.
I need to know, on which pages the Hidimbavadha is given. Note that it must be the second edition, the first, I know, is available at archiv.org (as well as in our National Library). 

Thanks,
Klaus

Klaus Karttunen
South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies
Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures
PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B)
00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418
Fax +358-(0)2941 22094
Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi








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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Fri Jul 18 19:17:45 2014
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 14 15:17:45 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] email to the list by mistake
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zt4HkZMDsZ2P6dZmMHsSqoCU69hTawFcx-T03EiCPpo3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear moderators,

I accidentally sent a private email to the list.  It may embarrass a
colleague.  I hope that you can catch it and delete it.

George


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Jul 19 09:39:46 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 14 11:39:46 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn (1941-2014)
In-Reply-To: <3E0B2C6E-87D0-4F0A-B049-74BAECD88E4B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcN0vr+qFSn995vphHPYoZo7uZ3B579k3sWSuLsMW=_EA@mail.gmail.com>

Members of the list may wish to note that in the months before his death,
Prof. Hahn systematically uploaded many of his research publications
to his home
page at Academia.edu <https://uni-marburg.academia.edu/MichaelHahn>, where
they may be freely read and downloaded.
?


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Sun Jul 20 10:03:31 2014
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 14 12:03:31 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] In search of a copy of one article by L. Sternbach
Message-ID: <7B8C2490-0BBD-4B5C-8CF2-94437D14D532@uclouvain.be>

Dear List,
would it be possible for some colleague to provide me with a .pdf copy of the following article:
L. Sternbach  "An attempt to reconstruct a ? lost? work of R?ja?ekhara", In: Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, vol. 61, 1981, p. 21-?
Maybe I am wrong, but I did not find (as expected from below) the ABORI on JSTOR.
Best wishes
Christophe Vielle

De: "Jan E.M. Houben" <jemhouben at gmail.com>
Objet: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: ABORI on JSTOR !!!
Date: 15 mars 2013 17:06:04 UTC+1
?: indology at list.indology.info

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Shreenand Bapat <shreenandbapat at gmail.com>
Date: 15 March 2013 05:14
Subject: ABORI on JSTOR !!!

Dear All,

This is to inform you with great pleasure that the first 87 volumes of the Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute (ABORI) have become available on the JSTOR.

Indeed  a major source of studies !!

--Shreenand



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From baums at lmu.de  Sun Jul 20 11:05:27 2014
From: baums at lmu.de (Stefan Baums)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 14 13:05:27 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] In search of a copy of one article by L. Sternbach
In-Reply-To: <7B8C2490-0BBD-4B5C-8CF2-94437D14D532@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <20140720110527.GA2437@deepthought>

Dear Christophe,

> Maybe I am wrong, but I did not find (as expected from
> below) the ABORI on JSTOR.

it (and the article you are looking for) are here:

   http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41691857

The article cannot be downloaded, but apparently you can
read it online if you register for a free JSTOR account.

All best,
Stefan

-- 
Dr. Stefan Baums
Institute for Indian and Tibetan Studies
Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich





From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Sun Jul 20 11:50:14 2014
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 14 13:50:14 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] In search of a copy of one article by L. Sternbach
In-Reply-To: <7B8C2490-0BBD-4B5C-8CF2-94437D14D532@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <E2AB919B-213A-4B11-B126-018B2D1CF64C@uclouvain.be>

Thank you much to Stefan Baums and Britta Schneider for their kind help concerning the needed article. It is confirmed that I was wrong and that the ABORI are on JSTOR !
Best wishes,
Christophe Vielle

Le 20 juil. 2014 ? 12:03, Christophe Vielle <christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> a ?crit :

> Dear List,
> would it be possible for some colleague to provide me with a .pdf copy of the following article:
> L. Sternbach  "An attempt to reconstruct a ? lost? work of R?ja?ekhara", In: Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, vol. 61, 1981, p. 21-?
> Maybe I am wrong, but I did not find (as expected from below) the ABORI on JSTOR.
> Best wishes
> Christophe Vielle
> 
> De: "Jan E.M. Houben" <jemhouben at gmail.com>
> Objet: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: ABORI on JSTOR !!!
> Date: 15 mars 2013 17:06:04 UTC+1
> ?: indology at list.indology.info
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Shreenand Bapat <shreenandbapat at gmail.com>
> Date: 15 March 2013 05:14
> Subject: ABORI on JSTOR !!!
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> This is to inform you with great pleasure that the first 87 volumes of the Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute (ABORI) have become available on the JSTOR.
> 
> Indeed  a major source of studies !!
> 
> --Shreenand
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle
Louvain-la-Neuve



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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Sun Jul 20 12:32:31 2014
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 14 14:32:31 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] In search of an unpublished? work by L. Sternbach
In-Reply-To: <E2AB919B-213A-4B11-B126-018B2D1CF64C@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <F6B995EA-F4DF-416F-B0E4-E446BE09A698@uclouvain.be>

Dear List,
In the ABORI 1980 article referred to below (http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41691857), L. Sternbach refers several times in the foot-notes to a work by himself entitled
 "R?ja?ekhara and his Unknwon Verses"
without date nor place (but 'part', 'annex' and '?' are given).
This reference is also quoted by Sures Chandra Banerji in his Companion To Sanskrit Literature (1st ed. 1971, 2nd 1989), also by the only title.
It seems that this work intended to be published by Sternbach remained in press (or in state of manuscript) and never issued, as it does not appear in any catalogue of libraries (I tried KIT and other tools).
Thank you for any further information thereabout,
Best wishes,
Christophe Vielle

D?but du message r?exp?di? :

> De: Christophe Vielle <christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be>
> Objet: R?p : [INDOLOGY] In search of a copy of one article by L. Sternbach
> Date: 20 juillet 2014 13:50:14 UTC+2
> ?: Indology Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> 
> Thank you much to Stefan Baums and Britta Schneider for their kind help concerning the needed article. It is confirmed that I was wrong and that the ABORI are on JSTOR !
> Best wishes,
> Christophe Vielle
> 
> Le 20 juil. 2014 ? 12:03, Christophe Vielle <christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> a ?crit :
> 
>> Dear List,
>> would it be possible for some colleague to provide me with a .pdf copy of the following article:
>> L. Sternbach  "An attempt to reconstruct a ? lost? work of R?ja?ekhara", In: Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, vol. 61, 1981, p. 21-?
>> Maybe I am wrong, but I did not find (as expected from below) the ABORI on JSTOR.
>> Best wishes
>> Christophe Vielle
>> 
>> De: "Jan E.M. Houben" <jemhouben at gmail.com>
>> Objet: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: ABORI on JSTOR !!!
>> Date: 15 mars 2013 17:06:04 UTC+1
>> ?: indology at list.indology.info
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Shreenand Bapat <shreenandbapat at gmail.com>
>> Date: 15 March 2013 05:14
>> Subject: ABORI on JSTOR !!!
>> 
>> Dear All,
>> 
>> This is to inform you with great pleasure that the first 87 volumes of the Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute (ABORI) have become available on the JSTOR.
>> 
>> Indeed  a major source of studies !!
>> 
>> --Shreenand
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
> 
> ???????????????????
> Christophe Vielle
> Louvain-la-Neuve
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle
Louvain-la-Neuve



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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jul 20 16:27:34 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 14 18:27:34 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN-KD9BA2TQ7msnFAzVErmWQ0sEqCxhy=9KKgdXcDue8sA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CezyS2L9q9imFkXRfVdO30ZTpJLsiP5Mw+y2OoMTcnfMA@mail.gmail.com>

Dans l'article, "Yoga et alchimie" Zeitschrift der Deutschen
Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft, 1982, 132, 363-79
<http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg/periodical/titleinfo/150129>, ?
la page 366, Arion Ro?u, dit,
"la transsubstantiation du corps (deha-vedha) ?tant calqu?e sur la
transmutation des m?taux vils (loha-vedha)."
C'est aussi exactement ma compr?hension de "vedh-" dans les textes
alchimique, comme je le soutiens.  Ro?u n'explique (or problematizes) pas sa
traduction ? cet endroit; peut-?tre ailleurs dans ses oevres extensive sur
ses sujets?

Dominik

?


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jul 20 16:34:41 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 14 18:34:41 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] In search of a copy of one article by L. Sternbach
In-Reply-To: <7B8C2490-0BBD-4B5C-8CF2-94437D14D532@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Ce4XiGRe2bO8JXFfHieW0PXp31aTO8nZLZt3uwxB3+rqQ@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Shreenand Bapat <shreenandbapat at gmail.com>
Date: 15 March 2013 05:14
Subject: ABORI on JSTOR !!!

Dear All,

This is to inform you with great pleasure that the first 87 volumes of the
Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute (ABORI) have become
available on the JSTOR.

Indeed  a major source of studies !!

--Shreenand


?While what JSTOR and BORI have done is excellent, it is not enough.  There
are two drawbacks in what they've done:

   1. Some volumes are missing.
   2. The method of access is clumsy and restricted.  Unlike most articles
   in JSTORE, ABORI articles can't be freely downloaded and read comfortably
   on one's own tailored screen, or printed out.  They can only be read on the
   web, and one can only read a very limited number of articles within a
   period of three weeks.  Three, articles I think, if memory serves.

It's all very clumsy and restrictive, and makes rapid, wide access to ABORI
articles difficult or impossible.  ABORI often printed rejoinders or
follow-up articles.  So in following a single topic, it's not uncommon to
want to read several articles together.  This isn't possible if there are
more than three (without waiting three weeks).

So, a big cheer for what they've done, but also a request that they remove
the existing strait-jacket and make ABORI articles available under the
normal JSTOR terms.


Dominik


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jul 20 16:40:12 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 14 18:40:12 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] unpublished article by Jean Filliozat?
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CecmAVcJoMzc0OcUkhVGprm0i9yT+L5hMstZbnr6KmwiA@mail.gmail.com>

In his 1982 "Yoga et Alchimie" paper that I cited a few minutes ago, Arion
Ro?u cites, in footnote 36, an article "J. Filliozat, Le yoga et les
substances psychotropes, p. 3 (en manuscrit)."

Does anyone know about this article of Filliozat's, or better, have a copy,
or better, be willing to share it?  :-)

Best,
Dominik Wujastyk
---------------

@article{rosu-yoga,
  author = {Arion Rosu},
  title = {Yoga et alchimie},
  journal = {Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft},
  year = {1982},
  volume = {132},
  pages = {363--79},
  url = {http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg/periodical/titleinfo/150129}
 }


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From bhairava11 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 20 18:52:47 2014
From: bhairava11 at gmail.com (Christopher Wallis)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 14 11:52:47 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CezyS2L9q9imFkXRfVdO30ZTpJLsiP5Mw+y2OoMTcnfMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM3HWN869cb0X1YT8ADoO5TDSUvMej7WUzg1ZFitA6H+F3U67Q@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the reference Dominik.

And, with reference to the Abhinavagupta passages we were considering, we
get a rather clear comment I didn't notice before:

*tad? bodha-svar?p?k?ta? tad-ras?nuviddham eva ??ny?di-deh?ntam avabh?t?ti *
then those [levels] from the Void to the body manifest as [they really
are,] having awareness as their essence, i.e. they are transmuted by the
elixir of that [awareness].

We also get a clarification in the same passage that *viddha, anuviddha,
abhinivi??a, sam?vi??a *all denote the same thing in this context. Though
it seems as if Abhinava uses *anuvedha/anuviddha *when he wants you to know
that he definitely means "transmute".

best, CW




2014-07-20 9:27 GMT-07:00 Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>:

> Dans l'article, "Yoga et alchimie" Zeitschrift der Deutschen
> Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft, 1982, 132, 363-79
> <http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg/periodical/titleinfo/150129>,
> ? la page 366, Arion Ro?u, dit,
> "la transsubstantiation du corps (deha-vedha) ?tant calqu?e sur la
> transmutation des m?taux vils (loha-vedha)."
> C'est aussi exactement ma compr?hension de "vedh-" dans les textes
> alchimique, comme je le soutiens.  Ro?u n'explique (or problematizes) pas sa
> traduction ? cet endroit; peut-?tre ailleurs dans ses oevres extensive
> sur ses sujets?
>
> Dominik
>
> ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Sun Jul 20 23:40:00 2014
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 14 19:40:00 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Staal bibliography help
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zuXG4C8Nx6qiL2RVyC=Mcq0RsR3UO4QD0BxRV31b_TqQA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

We are trying to update Frits Staal's bibliography for our forthcoming
memorial volume.  We have sent emails to the editors of the 1997
Festschrift volume published by the International Institute for Asian
Studies in Leiden, requesting use of their bibliography, but the email
addresses cited there do not seem to be accessible any more.  The editor of
this Festschrift was Dick van der Meij.

Does anyone have contact information for him or anyone else at IIAS?  We
plan to supplement this bibliography with the one that Frits published in
his "Discovering the Vedas."  As for Frits' bibliography post "Discovering
the Vedas," all I have are early drafts that Frits sent to me for
comments.  He never sent me any publication information on these last
papers.

Help on references to Frits' last papers would be greatly appreciated.

George Thompson and Richard Payne


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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 05:55:44 2014
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 14 07:55:44 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Staal bibliography help
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zuXG4C8Nx6qiL2RVyC=Mcq0RsR3UO4QD0BxRV31b_TqQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4KE1DQs8wvT_uHgU91p3w2FweP4hHw7SeT0yg+sPju7UA@mail.gmail.com>

The Institute Manager of the IIAS is Dr. Willem Vogelsang:
w.j.vogelsang at iias.nl. Perhaps he is the best person with whom to attempt
contact.

Jonathan Silk


On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 1:40 AM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> We are trying to update Frits Staal's bibliography for our forthcoming
> memorial volume.  We have sent emails to the editors of the 1997
> Festschrift volume published by the International Institute for Asian
> Studies in Leiden, requesting use of their bibliography, but the email
> addresses cited there do not seem to be accessible any more.  The editor of
> this Festschrift was Dick van der Meij.
>
> Does anyone have contact information for him or anyone else at IIAS?  We
> plan to supplement this bibliography with the one that Frits published in
> his "Discovering the Vedas."  As for Frits' bibliography post "Discovering
> the Vedas," all I have are early drafts that Frits sent to me for
> comments.  He never sent me any publication information on these last
> papers.
>
> Help on references to Frits' last papers would be greatly appreciated.
>
> George Thompson and Richard Payne
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
J. Silk
Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37
Doelensteeg 16
2311 VL Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 08:05:58 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 14 10:05:58 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] unpublished article by Jean Filliozat?
In-Reply-To: <CAGDOqfqZ26rXXf-soYE=bKLxsf6UHt0wMQSq4twtWAPDHCy4NA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cez8VHcfcg2jkwp3gt7WbzH4-357bpJNxhO_faDv3dRkQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you so much! This really helps, and I've found the journal and
written to them to get an offprint.  Excellent.

Thanks!
Dominik


On 21 July 2014 04:18, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim <antonio.jardim at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Dominik,
>
> I don't own this article but according to my files here are the
> publication details:
>
> Filliozat, J. ?Le Yoga et les substances psychotropes?, Yoga et Vie.
> Vol. 26 (D?c. 1978), p. 27-29
>
> Kind regards,
> Antonio
>
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 2:40 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > In his 1982 "Yoga et Alchimie" paper that I cited a few minutes ago,
> Arion
> > Ro?u cites, in footnote 36, an article "J. Filliozat, Le yoga et les
> > substances psychotropes, p. 3 (en manuscrit)."
> >
> > Does anyone know about this article of Filliozat's, or better, have a
> copy,
> > or better, be willing to share it?  :-)
> >
> > Best,
> > Dominik Wujastyk
> > ---------------
> >
> > @article{rosu-yoga,
> >   author = {Arion Rosu},
> >   title = {Yoga et alchimie},
> >   journal = {Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft},
> >   year = {1982},
> >   volume = {132},
> >   pages = {363--79},
> >   url =
> > {http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg/periodical/titleinfo/150129}
> >  }
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Mon Jul 21 09:08:25 2014
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 14 11:08:25 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAM3HWN869cb0X1YT8ADoO5TDSUvMej7WUzg1ZFitA6H+F3U67Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEgrCzDY2v5=L1BYK4Bex9vDhuaodxGzEZc9C=Db5Y0vD9fZDA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

Two more instances that seem to be indicative of the alchemy metaphor's
popularity in the Indian narrative tradition.

During his last days - as described in the Mahaparinibbana-sutta - the
Buddha's body looses its natural coloring and becomes  golden-hued. On his
way to Kusinara he crosses the Golden River (Hira??avat?), and he wears a
gold-threaded robe. A sign of his final purification and, ultimately,
transmutation --- ?

In a well known myth, Hiranyakashipu decides to kill his disobedient son
Prahlada. He devises a series of deadly attempts that should have ended in
his son's death, but is unsuccessful. According to the
Bhagavata-purana, the number of these "treatments" is - if I counted them
well - *sixteen*. Has anyone analyzed the sequence? Is it in any way
evocative of the 16 sa?sk?ras ---? Or - does it contain just a free, sort
of caricatural variation on the alchemical process, and that is why it
ultimately ends in the performer's death?

Thanks for a highly interesting exchange and -

All the Best,

Artur Karp
Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.)
South Asian Studies Dept.
Oriental Faculty,
University of Warsaw
Poland


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From e.ciurtin at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 09:34:19 2014
From: e.ciurtin at gmail.com (Eugen Ciurtin)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 14 12:34:19 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] unpublished article by Jean Filliozat?
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cez8VHcfcg2jkwp3gt7WbzH4-357bpJNxhO_faDv3dRkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAeSjSKJ=ndUmMWErtrLMy6ci7x8+ZKC52czM-qVxfG8WpfaYg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dominik,
Dear Colleagues,

Attached (I hope) the very file you mentioned: a 'tapuscrit' of Jean
Filliozat, signed by Arion Ro?u as unpublished (back then).

Some related material is extant in Arion Ro?u's archives in Paris and in
Bucharest (which I just checked). It goes without saying, Arion Ro?u
meticulously abstracted his revered master's teaching courses at the
College de France, his hundreds of handwritten pages during the 1970s being
a better proof of Filliozat's mastery of all things Indological than his
shorter articles from the Annuaire (freely available online). Please add
the ZDMG reference follows the discussion from his 1978 book (s.v. visha /
psychotropes). Hope it helps, even if the quality of my photo is rather
poor.

with all best wishes,
Eugen
(Institute for the History of Religions, Romanian Academy)




2014-07-21 11:05 GMT+03:00 Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>:

> Thank you so much! This really helps, and I've found the journal and
> written to them to get an offprint.  Excellent.
>
> Thanks!
> Dominik
>
>
> On 21 July 2014 04:18, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim <antonio.jardim at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Dominik,
>>
>> I don't own this article but according to my files here are the
>> publication details:
>>
>> Filliozat, J. ?Le Yoga et les substances psychotropes?, Yoga et Vie.
>> Vol. 26 (D?c. 1978), p. 27-29
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Antonio
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 2:40 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > In his 1982 "Yoga et Alchimie" paper that I cited a few minutes ago,
>> Arion
>> > Ro?u cites, in footnote 36, an article "J. Filliozat, Le yoga et les
>> > substances psychotropes, p. 3 (en manuscrit)."
>> >
>> > Does anyone know about this article of Filliozat's, or better, have a
>> copy,
>> > or better, be willing to share it?  :-)
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Dominik Wujastyk
>> > ---------------
>> >
>> > @article{rosu-yoga,
>> >   author = {Arion Rosu},
>> >   title = {Yoga et alchimie},
>> >   journal = {Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft},
>> >   year = {1982},
>> >   volume = {132},
>> >   pages = {363--79},
>> >   url =
>> > {http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg/periodical/titleinfo/150129
>> }
>> >  }
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> > http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From juhartmann at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Mon Jul 21 10:35:48 2014
From: juhartmann at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Jens-Uwe Hartmann)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 14 12:35:48 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Job advertisement Austrian Academy of Sciences
Message-ID: <53CCED04.3060606@lrz.uni-muenchen.de>

Dear List members,

I would like to draw your attention to the following job advertisement. 
Please also inform interested colleages.

Best wishes,

Uwe Hartmann


The Austrian Academy of Sciences invites applications to a search for

DIRECTOR OF THE INSTITUTE FOR THE CULTURAL AND INTELLECTUAL HISTORY OF ASIA

The Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia (IKGA) 
is dedicated to the exploration of various
cultures in Asia. Its mission is to enhance our knowledge in various 
Asia-related fields and to promote our
understanding of the contacts, mutual influences and manifold 
developments of Asian cultures. Research is
mainly conducted in the fields of Indology, Tibetology, Japanology, 
Chinese Buddhism, Religious Studies
and Buddhology. The internationally and historically most important 
research focuses on the publication of
important, newly recovered sources of Indian Buddhism. This specific 
orientation is a result of the agreement
of the Austrian Academy of Sciences with the China Tibetology Research 
Center. The applicant must
possess an outstanding competence to support and further develop the 
work carried out at the Institute.
He/she is expected to successfully initiate third-party funding and to 
strengthen international ties, since both
are an indispensable prerequisite for securing the long-term 
consolidation and further expansion of the
Institute.

The director?s responsibilities include:
? continuing to develop her/his position as a leading academic 
researcher; including publication and
securing of external funding
? setting and advancing the research strategy of the Institute
? continuing and advancing the cooperation with the China Tibetology 
Research Center
? leading, managing and developing the Institute to ensure the delivery 
of internationally-leading
research
? advancing ?AW?s commitment to the research foci by adding to the 
world-wide visibility of the
Institute through maintaining and developing its international activities
? representing the Institute both internally and externally

The profile of this position requires:
? outstanding research record with focus on the literature of Indian 
Buddhist philosophy and
experience in the edition of manuscripts with an excellent track record 
of publications in these fields
? internationally demonstrated research profile (habilitation or 
equivalent qualification)
? demonstrated excellence in leadership, in building and sustaining 
national and international research
networks, and in the management of international projects
? experience in raising third-party funds
? commitment to integrative and collaborative work and capacity building
? excellent knowledge of the English language

Candidates are requested to send a cover letter including the standard 
documents such as CV, list of
publications with reprints of the five key publications, short 
description of the current and/or future research
activities, as well as an outlook on the potential scientific 
development of the Institute to the following
address:
President
o. Univ.-Prof. Dr. Anton ZEILINGER
Dr. Ignaz Seipel-Platz 2
1010 Vienna
AUSTRIA
praesident at oeaw.ac.at
Applications should reach us by October 31st, 2014. Late applications 
may be considered until the position
has been filled.
In an attempt to increase the share of women in academic leadership 
positions, the ?AW especially invites
female candidates to apply for the present position.
Any questions related to this position should be directed to Dr. 
Alexander Nagler by phone
+43/1/51581/1272 or mail: alexander.nagler at oeaw.ac.at. For more 
information about the Austrian Academy
of Sciences please visit the homepage http://www.oeaw.ac.at. Information 
about the Institute is available
under http://www.ikga.oeaw.ac.at/ .


-- 

Prof. Dr. Jens-Uwe Hartmann
Institut fuer Indologie und Tibetologie
Universitaet Muenchen
Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1
80539 Muenchen
Tel. +49-(0)89-2180-5384
Fax +49-(0)89-2180-5827



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From Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at  Mon Jul 21 11:51:39 2014
From: Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at (Eltschinger, Vincent)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 14 11:51:39 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Open position at the Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia (AAS, Vienna)
Message-ID: <E08F605D13D6B843B9BA8E3F7582ABDA3292E1B9@w07exdb1.oeaw.ads>

Dear Colleagues,

I would like to bring to your attention the advertisement for the position of

Director of the Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia,
Austrian Academy of Sciences (Vienna)

For the job description, deadline for applications, etc., please see the following link: http://www.ikga.oeaw.ac.at/Open_Position

With best regards,
Vincent Eltschinger


Dr. Vincent Eltschinger
Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Apostelgasse 23
A-1030 Vienna
veltsch at oeaw.ac.at<mailto:veltsch at oeaw.ac.at>
0043 1 51581 6434
0043 664 9150095



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From jacob at fabularasa.dk  Mon Jul 21 12:19:04 2014
From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 14 14:19:04 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alchemy metaphor
In-Reply-To: <CAEgrCzDY2v5=L1BYK4Bex9vDhuaodxGzEZc9C=Db5Y0vD9fZDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <da687697e08b0b3a68f5f28bb793e4f3@fabularasa.dk>

Dear list,

A similar case of transmutation in narrative literature is found in the 
Tibetan version of the framing narrative of the Vet?lapa?cavi??ati. 
There the corpse possessed by the vet?la turns into gold upon the 
success of the young prince Bde-spyod (S?tav?hana) in bringing it back 
to the benevolent ascetic Klu-sgrub (N?g?rjuna). Each time a limb is cut 
from the golden corpse, it grows back out again, thus making it an 
inexhaustible source of wealth destined to be used for spreading 
Buddhist doctrine and helping secure the prosperity of Bde-spyod's 
kingdom when he himself becomes king.

The same theme is rehearsed in at least one manuscript of the Indian 
version of the Vet?lapa?cavi??ati attributed to ?ivad?sa (Poleman no. 
2317; ms. c in Heinrich Uhle's 1881 critical edition). There, however, 
the corpse only turns into gold after king Vikram?ditya has slain the 
now malevolent ascetic (variously described as a yogin, a digambara, and 
a k?apa?aka) who sent him out to fetch it for his own 
magical-ritualistic purposes. The king then states that the limbs of the 
golden corpse shall grow back out again when cut, and that the gold 
shall be used to pay off the debts of the earth.

Both cases, one seemingly derived from the other, present us with 
examples of the transmutation of a corpse into gold; and, furthermore, 
in both cases the transmutation seems to serve the dual purpose of 
providing material wealth (securing the prosperity of the kingdom, 
paying off the debts of the earth) and providing a metaphor for 
spiritual purification (helping spread Buddhist doctrine, paying off the 
debts of the earth).

Best,
Jacob

Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
Lecturer (Sanskrit)
Department of Indology
University of Copenhagen
Denmark

Artur Karp skrev den 2014-07-21 11:08:
> Dear List,
> 
> Two more instances that seem to be indicative of the alchemy
> metaphor's popularity in the Indian narrative tradition.
> 
> During his last days - as described in the Mahaparinibbana-sutta - the
> Buddha's body looses its natural coloring and becomes  golden-hued. On
> his way to Kusinara he crosses the Golden River (Hira??avat?), and
> he wears a gold-threaded robe. A sign of his final purification and,
> ultimately, transmutation --- ?
> 
> In a well known myth, Hiranyakashipu decides to kill his disobedient
> son Prahlada. He devises a series of deadly attempts that should have
> ended in his son's death, but is unsuccessful. According to the
> Bhagavata-purana, the number of these "treatments" is - if I counted
> them well - SIXTEEN. Has anyone analyzed the sequence? Is it in any
> way evocative of the 16 sa?sk?ras ---? Or - does it contain just a
> free, sort of caricatural variation on the alchemical process, and
> that is why it ultimately ends in the performer's death?
> 
> Thanks for a highly interesting exchange and -
> 
> All the Best,
> 
> Artur Karp
> Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.)
>  South Asian Studies Dept.
> Oriental Faculty,
> University of Warsaw
> Poland
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info





From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de  Mon Jul 21 14:44:51 2014
From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 14 14:44:51 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #437
Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D949C31433E@UM-excdag-a02.um.gwdg.de>


GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection:


Apadana: PTS/Dhammakaya version revised:
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#Apadana


Samyuttanikaya 3: PTS/Dhammakaya version, annotated and plain text:
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#Samyutt



__________________________________________________________________________

"GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement")

GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages:

http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm





From evadeclercq at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 21 16:22:08 2014
From: evadeclercq at hotmail.com (Eva De Clercq)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 14 18:22:08 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Intensive Course in Indian Manuscriptology
Message-ID: <BLU436-SMTP6FCD9A0DA850D1630ADC4B6F00@phx.gbl>

Dear all,

 From October 13th to 17th, 2014, the Department of Indian languages and 
cultures at Ghent University is organizing an Doctoral School on Indian 
Manuscriptology. This Doctoral School is intended for doctoral 
researchers (or advanced MA students) who, in the course of their 
research, are confronted with manuscripts, but have had no specialized 
training in how to properly deal with them, and who would like to 
further explore the possibilities of working with manuscripts. The 
course will include workshops in which participants discuss the 
particular manuscript they may be working with. A class schedule will be 
posted on this website in due course: http://www.india.ugent.be/node/351.

Please forward this information to any doctoral students who may be 
interested in attending. Interested participants should contact 
Noor.vanBrussel at gmail.com.

More information is listed below,

With best regards,

Eva



*Prof. Dr. Eva De Clercq*
*Ghent University
Dept. of Languages and Cultures (Indian Languages and Cultures)
*Blandijnberg 2
9000 Ghent
BELGIUM
tel: + 32 9 264 4087
mobile: +32 476 419890
www.india.ugent.be
www.jainastudies.ugent.be
<https://www.facebook.com/indischetalenenculturen>

**

**

*Intensive Course in Indian Manuscriptology*

*Teacher: *Mr. P.L. Shaji (ORIML, Trivandrum, and National Manuscript 
Mission, Delhi)

*Maximum number of participants: *15

*Required knowledge or skills: *basic Sanskrit/Devanagari

*Evaluation criteria: *100% attendance**

*Teaching material: *will be made available by the teacher

*Duration: *5 days - 15 contact hours.

*Language: *English

*Location*: Blandijnberg 2, 9000 Ghent



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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 17:32:06 2014
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 14 13:32:06 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Staal bibliography help
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4KE1DQs8wvT_uHgU91p3w2FweP4hHw7SeT0yg+sPju7UA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zswg1DkPLPe21xvrWyZdELFMHBvMWbcsGyePF=8h+EUnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Jonathan,

Thank you very much for this helpful information.

George


On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 1:55 AM, Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com> wrote:

> The Institute Manager of the IIAS is Dr. Willem Vogelsang:
> w.j.vogelsang at iias.nl. Perhaps he is the best person with whom to attempt
> contact.
>
> Jonathan Silk
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 1:40 AM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> We are trying to update Frits Staal's bibliography for our forthcoming
>> memorial volume.  We have sent emails to the editors of the 1997
>> Festschrift volume published by the International Institute for Asian
>> Studies in Leiden, requesting use of their bibliography, but the email
>> addresses cited there do not seem to be accessible any more.  The editor of
>> this Festschrift was Dick van der Meij.
>>
>> Does anyone have contact information for him or anyone else at IIAS?  We
>> plan to supplement this bibliography with the one that Frits published in
>> his "Discovering the Vedas."  As for Frits' bibliography post "Discovering
>> the Vedas," all I have are early drafts that Frits sent to me for
>> comments.  He never sent me any publication information on these last
>> papers.
>>
>> Help on references to Frits' last papers would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> George Thompson and Richard Payne
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>
>
> --
> J. Silk
> Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37
> Doelensteeg 16
> 2311 VL Leiden
> The Netherlands
>
> copies of my publications may be found at
> http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html
>


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From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 19:46:30 2014
From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 14 21:46:30 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Postdoctoral Fellowship in South Asian Languages &	Literature
Message-ID: <E10A97BD-15E9-42AE-BB1E-0522124BB11C@gmail.com>

The Gurmani Centre for Languages and Literature at the Lahore University of Management Sciences calls for applications:

Postdoctoral Fellowship

This is a nine-month fully-funded position starting September 1, 2014. Fellows will be eligible for faculty housing subject to availability. The fellowship stipend will be Pak Rs. 150,000 per month (approximately equivalent to USD 1500 per month). In addition, the fellow would be entitled to an economy-class return fare to and from Lahore. With the living cost in Lahore, this amount can provide for quite comfortable living.

For more details please follow the links below:

http://lums.edu.pk/mgshss/news-details.php/call-for-applications-for-postdoctoral-fellowship-in-south-asian-languages-and-literature-at-lums-2749










From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Jul 22 01:38:16 2014
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 14 21:38:16 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Controversy_Swirls_Around_=E2=80=98Sanskrit_Week=E2=80=99_Celebrations?=
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfN-Gpg3t3bodQht_Lzz4idDTRgT-RNib-Jkj9V8Xep4g@mail.gmail.com>

See the attached news report.

Madhav Deshpande

-- 
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From srinivasanacharya at gmail.com  Tue Jul 22 04:14:54 2014
From: srinivasanacharya at gmail.com (Srinivasan Acharya)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 14 09:44:54 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Philosophy and Culture Summer School in July 2014 in	Kerala, India
Message-ID: <CADu1vbU3--oKA6K3AqMARcKbC5xfKTQpcL3y3LhKnPb_1THhXg@mail.gmail.com>

We are pleased to share with you that a two-week Summer School *The Living
Philosophies and Cultures of India *from July 24 to August 7, 2014 is
jointly organized by Manipal University and Chinmaya International
Foundation Shodh Santhan in Kerala with Prof Shrinivasa Varakhedi
<http://www.ksu.ac.in/en/faculty/faculty-of-shastras/dean/>, (Vice
Chancellor) - Karnataka Sanskrit University and Prof Arindam Chakrabarti
<http://hawaii.edu/phil/people/current-faculty/>, University of Hawaii, USA
as Course Directors. 15 eminent scholars are delivering lectures on various
topics in Philosophies and Cultures.

Please find a brochure with details of the program and day-to-day schedule
of the Summer School attached.

Thanks and regards,

Srinivasa Kumar N Acharya



Assistant Professor

Dvaita Philosophy Resource Centre (DPRC)

Manipal Centre for European Studies (MCES)

Manipal University (MU)

Behind Post Office, Manipal (Vedadri) ? 576104 Udupi, Karnataka, India



Telephone: +91 820 2923053

Hand-held: +91 9986085634

Website: www.manipal.edu/des/dprc


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Tue Jul 22 07:40:14 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 14 09:40:14 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] unpublished article by Jean Filliozat?
In-Reply-To: <CAAeSjSKJ=ndUmMWErtrLMy6ci7x8+ZKC52czM-qVxfG8WpfaYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CfQkrRb4ozJ9Gdqu=GRK7VtL602+5gi1vgsjSevBS4XFw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Eugen,  I'm extremely grateful for this!  It's also touching to have
this contact with the original typescript of Filliozat, and Arion's notes.
Thank you so much.

Dominik


On 21 July 2014 11:34, Eugen Ciurtin <e.ciurtin at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Dominik,
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Attached (I hope) the very file you mentioned: a 'tapuscrit' of Jean
> Filliozat, signed by Arion Ro?u as unpublished (back then).
>
> Some related material is extant in Arion Ro?u's archives in Paris and in
> Bucharest (which I just checked). It goes without saying, Arion Ro?u
> meticulously abstracted his revered master's teaching courses at the
> College de France, his hundreds of handwritten pages during the 1970s being
> a better proof of Filliozat's mastery of all things Indological than his
> shorter articles from the Annuaire (freely available online). Please add
> the ZDMG reference follows the discussion from his 1978 book (s.v. visha /
> psychotropes). Hope it helps, even if the quality of my photo is rather
> poor.
>
> with all best wishes,
> Eugen
> (Institute for the History of Religions, Romanian Academy)
>
>
>
>
> 2014-07-21 11:05 GMT+03:00 Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>:
>
>  Thank you so much! This really helps, and I've found the journal and
>> written to them to get an offprint.  Excellent.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Dominik
>>
>>
>> On 21 July 2014 04:18, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim <antonio.jardim at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Dominik,
>>>
>>> I don't own this article but according to my files here are the
>>> publication details:
>>>
>>> Filliozat, J. ?Le Yoga et les substances psychotropes?, Yoga et Vie.
>>> Vol. 26 (D?c. 1978), p. 27-29
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Antonio
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 2:40 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > In his 1982 "Yoga et Alchimie" paper that I cited a few minutes ago,
>>> Arion
>>> > Ro?u cites, in footnote 36, an article "J. Filliozat, Le yoga et les
>>> > substances psychotropes, p. 3 (en manuscrit)."
>>> >
>>> > Does anyone know about this article of Filliozat's, or better, have a
>>> copy,
>>> > or better, be willing to share it?  :-)
>>> >
>>> > Best,
>>> > Dominik Wujastyk
>>> > ---------------
>>> >
>>> > @article{rosu-yoga,
>>> >   author = {Arion Rosu},
>>> >   title = {Yoga et alchimie},
>>> >   journal = {Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft},
>>> >   year = {1982},
>>> >   volume = {132},
>>> >   pages = {363--79},
>>> >   url =
>>> > {
>>> http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg/periodical/titleinfo/150129}
>>> >  }
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> > http://listinfo.indology.info
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>
>


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From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu  Tue Jul 22 14:16:38 2014
From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 14 10:16:38 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] now in paperback
Message-ID: <53CE7246.2070304@sas.upenn.edu>

Dear List,

We are pleased to share the news that a print-on-demand paperback 
edition of our book, /The Making of Western Indology: Henry Thomas 
Colebrooke and the East India Company /is now available from Routledge 
at ?29.99 (vs. ?95 for the hardback edition). Paperback ISBN 
978-1-13-878417-8; Hardback Dec. 2011, ISBN 978-0-415-33601-7.

Rosane and Ludo Rocher


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From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu  Wed Jul 23 11:19:47 2014
From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 14 07:19:47 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] also in ebook
In-Reply-To: <53CE7246.2070304@sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <53CF9A53.9020209@sas.upenn.edu>

Upon James's query, I asked Routledge and received the following answer: 
"According to our records, an ebook edition was made available last 
month. It will be the same price as the paperback."  Enjoy!

Rosane

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	[INDOLOGY] now in paperback
Date: 	Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:16:38 -0400
From: 	Rosane Rocher <rrocher at sas.upenn.edu>
To: 	indology at list.indology.info



Dear List,

We are pleased to share the news that a print-on-demand paperback 
edition of our book, /The Making of Western Indology: Henry Thomas 
Colebrooke and the East India Company /is now available from Routledge 
at ?29.99 (vs. ?95 for the hardback edition).  Paperback ISBN 
978-1-13-878417-8; Hardback Dec. 2011, ISBN 978-0-415-33601-7.

Rosane and Ludo Rocher






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From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 11:50:26 2014
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 14 13:50:26 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] also in ebook
In-Reply-To: <53CF9A53.9020209@sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAKA8X40Qsnk8rCW59PoQftwoW48gneFn77GuPTRCKdbaeYKVZQ@mail.gmail.com>

I found it on Amazon Kindle, thanks.


On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Rosane Rocher <rrocher at sas.upenn.edu>
wrote:

>  Upon James's query, I asked Routledge and received the following answer: "According
> to our records, an ebook edition was made available last month. It will be
> the same price as the paperback."  Enjoy!
>
> Rosane
>
> -------- Original Message --------  Subject: [INDOLOGY] now in paperback  Date:
> Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:16:38 -0400  From: Rosane Rocher
> <rrocher at sas.upenn.edu> <rrocher at sas.upenn.edu>  To:
> indology at list.indology.info
>
> Dear List,
>
> We are pleased to share the news that a print-on-demand paperback edition
> of our book, *The Making of Western Indology: Henry Thomas Colebrooke and
> the East India Company *is now available from Routledge at ?29.99 (vs.
> ?95 for the hardback edition).  Paperback ISBN 978-1-13-878417-8; Hardback
> Dec. 2011, ISBN 978-0-415-33601-7.
>
> Rosane and Ludo Rocher
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
James Hartzell, PhD
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
The University of Trento, Italy


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From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de  Wed Jul 23 17:42:23 2014
From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 14 17:42:23 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #438
Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D949C31945D@UM-excdag-a02.um.gwdg.de>


GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection:


Dipavamsa: file allocation corrected:
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#Dipav


Dipavamsa [2], a modern continuation by Ahungala Vimala: file allocation corrected:
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#Dipav2


Samyuttanikaya 4 and 5: PTS/Dhammakaya version, annotated and plain text:
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#Samyutt



__________________________________________________________________________

"GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement")

GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages:

http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm





From windundtau at yahoo.de  Thu Jul 24 12:38:57 2014
From: windundtau at yahoo.de (Christian Ferstl)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 14 13:38:57 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ajanta cave paintings
Message-ID: <1406205537.5176.YahooMailNeo@web171704.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>

Dear members of the Indology list,

I've been reading most of your messages with interest for several years now, but never contributed to it. Nevertheless I dare to ask for your help now. But let me introduce myself first. 
After my MA thesis on Mahendravarman's Mattavil?saprahasana I am presently working on a PhD thesis on the early depictions of P??upata in k?vya literature (both at the University of Vienna).?? 

In context of the latter I would be very interested in a certain scene of the Ajanta cave paintings, found in the main hall of cave 16, left hand wall. Dieter Schlingloff has interpreted it as the Bh?rgava scene (as it is found in the Buddhacarita, Divy?vad?na and Sanghabhedavastu versions of the Buddha's biography). It is scene Nr. 25 of the drawings in Schlingloff's publication from 1983 (WZKS 27) and 2000 (Handbook of the Paintings 1, Vol. I, p. 366, and Vol. III, XVI,19 / No. 64). 

I wonder if there are pictures of the original painting in J. Griffiths' 1896 book on The Paintings in the Buddhist Cave-Temples in Ajanta, probably Vol. 1 (Nr. 16 B). Also Ghulam Yazdani's Ajanta. The Colour and Monochrome Reproductions of the Ajanta Frescoes Based on Photography, Part III, London 1946, should have it (plate LIX). I could not get hold of the books by Griffiths and Yazdani, neither didgital nor real. Pictures taken in more recent times are also welcome, but perhaps original paintings were less weathered in the 19th century? 

With many thanks in advance,
Christian Ferstl


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From michael.williams at univie.ac.at  Fri Jul 25 08:24:44 2014
From: michael.williams at univie.ac.at (Michael Williams)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 14 10:24:44 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_asatkhy=C4=81tiv=C4=81da?=
Message-ID: <3e5458118098fd87b471a57e0cc1066f.squirrel@webmail.univie.ac.at>

Dear list members,

I am currently becoming more interested in the doctrine of asatkhy?tiv?da
and its critique by later Brahmanical thinkers. The primary sources I have
read (e.g., V?caspati and Citsukha) present it in a confused and rather
unconvincing way, and the secondary sources I have seen are threadbare.
Does anyone know of a good specialist study of this doctrine and its
origins?

Many thanks,

Michael Williams,
University of Vienna.






From zysk at hum.ku.dk  Fri Jul 25 09:14:33 2014
From: zysk at hum.ku.dk (Kenneth Gregory Zysk)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 14 09:14:33 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_asatkhy=C4=81tiv=C4=81da?=
In-Reply-To: <3e5458118098fd87b471a57e0cc1066f.squirrel@webmail.univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <D08C2A94323FEC4D8F5E930CABEF2FDD285B4CEB@exmbx1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk>

Dear Michael,

As I recall, Gerry Larson is quite knowledgeable on the subject. I have not heard from him in some years, but I think that he is still in or around Santa Barbara.
Try to contact him via UCSB.
Best,
Ken

Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil
Head of Indology
Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
University of Copenhagen
Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10, 
DK-2300 Copenhagen S??? Denmark
Ph:? +45 3532 8951????????????????????????? Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk
Phone in India: 919767611292


-----Original Message-----
From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Michael Williams
Sent: 25. juli 2014 10:25
To: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: [INDOLOGY] asatkhy?tiv?da

Dear list members,

I am currently becoming more interested in the doctrine of asatkhy?tiv?da and its critique by later Brahmanical thinkers. The primary sources I have read (e.g., V?caspati and Citsukha) present it in a confused and rather unconvincing way, and the secondary sources I have seen are threadbare.
Does anyone know of a good specialist study of this doctrine and its origins?

Many thanks,

Michael Williams,
University of Vienna.


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info




From laurie.patton at duke.edu  Fri Jul 25 12:05:55 2014
From: laurie.patton at duke.edu (Prof Laurie Patton, Ph.D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 14 12:05:55 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_asatkhy=C4=81tiv=C4=81da?=
In-Reply-To: <D08C2A94323FEC4D8F5E930CABEF2FDD285B4CEB@exmbx1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk>
Message-ID: <2F96DFAC-C4B2-4E31-A08A-9AB5AEE6B4E1@duke.edu>

Ken, Michael, 
The email Gerry was using as of spring 2014 was glarson at indiana.edu

Warm wishes,
Laurie L Patton
Durden Professor of Religion
and
Dean, Trinity College of Arts & Sciences,
Duke University


> On Jul 25, 2014, at 5:15, "Kenneth Gregory Zysk" <zysk at hum.ku.dk> wrote:
> 
> Dear Michael,
> 
> As I recall, Gerry Larson is quite knowledgeable on the subject. I have not heard from him in some years, but I think that he is still in or around Santa Barbara.
> Try to contact him via UCSB.
> Best,
> Ken
> 
> Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil
> Head of Indology
> Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
> University of Copenhagen
> Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10, 
> DK-2300 Copenhagen S    Denmark
> Ph:  +45 3532 8951                          Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk
> Phone in India: 919767611292
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Michael Williams
> Sent: 25. juli 2014 10:25
> To: indology at list.indology.info
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] asatkhy?tiv?da
> 
> Dear list members,
> 
> I am currently becoming more interested in the doctrine of asatkhy?tiv?da and its critique by later Brahmanical thinkers. The primary sources I have read (e.g., V?caspati and Citsukha) present it in a confused and rather unconvincing way, and the secondary sources I have seen are threadbare.
> Does anyone know of a good specialist study of this doctrine and its origins?
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> Michael Williams,
> University of Vienna.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info





From danbalogh at gmail.com  Fri Jul 25 12:34:15 2014
From: danbalogh at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Balogh_D=C3=A1niel?=)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 14 14:34:15 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soo che? Saru che... Gujarati
Message-ID: <53D24EC7.8000609@gmail.com>


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From slaje at kabelmail.de  Fri Jul 25 13:38:13 2014
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 14 15:38:13 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_asatkhy=C4=81tiv=C4=81da?=
In-Reply-To: <3e5458118098fd87b471a57e0cc1066f.squirrel@webmail.univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nUJbJ6CoCUYgR53LkjjGARX6OEYt6nL=CX4Gq2t9P=zrw@mail.gmail.com>

Ma??anami?ra treats the Buddhist Asatkhy?ti among four theories of error in
his Vibhramaviveka (5-27). Although he may not be seen as a "later
Brahmanical thinker", it is certainly worthwhile to consult Lambert
Schmithausen's edition, which is accompanied by a translation, a running
commentary, and a thorough survey on the subject. See there on pp. 93ff and
234ff.

Lambert Schmithausen: Ma??anami?ra's Vibhra?ma?vi?veka?. Mit einer Studie
zur Ent?wicklung der indischen Irrtumslehre. [?AW SB 247,1 = VKSKS 2.] Wien
1965.

?Regards,
WS
?

-----------------------------
Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
D-99425 Weimar
Deutschland

Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor
studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum
non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam,
sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus
humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat.
Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII.


2014-07-25 10:24 GMT+02:00 Michael Williams <michael.williams at univie.ac.at>:

> Dear list members,
>
> I am currently becoming more interested in the doctrine of asatkhy?tiv?da
> and its critique by later Brahmanical thinkers. The primary sources I have
> read (e.g., V?caspati and Citsukha) present it in a confused and rather
> unconvincing way, and the secondary sources I have seen are threadbare.
> Does anyone know of a good specialist study of this doctrine and its
> origins?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Michael Williams,
> University of Vienna.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info


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From michael.williams at univie.ac.at  Fri Jul 25 16:09:02 2014
From: michael.williams at univie.ac.at (Michael Williams)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 14 18:09:02 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_asakhy=C4=81tiv=C4=81da?=
Message-ID: <908899b537a301ff3e2846b7a1209df4.squirrel@webmail.univie.ac.at>

Dear list members,

Thankyou for your swift replies. I had not come across Schmithausen's
edition of the Vibhramaviveka and it is looking to be particularly
helpful.

With best wishes,

Michael Williams,
University of Vienna.






From bindu.bhatt at gmail.com  Fri Jul 25 16:56:55 2014
From: bindu.bhatt at gmail.com (Bindu Bhatt)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 14 12:56:55 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soo che? Saru che... Gujarati
In-Reply-To: <53D24EC7.8000609@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALuvC7A8NKsH49rrK_QY7FLhRU6NOcyyDTA_t1M6fcSuXVFgoA@mail.gmail.com>

If it were in Gujarati, it will be

??? ??. ????? ??. ???? ?? ?? ????? ?

However, mostly non-Gujarati speaker [Hindi speaker] use this doggerel and
it is exactly how you have mentioned in your Anglisized version. I slightly
defer from the meaning given. It means: How is it going? It is fine.  I
will take a stick and hit you.
I have never understood this doggerel and why is it something that people
so widely use.

Bindu Bhatt


On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Balogh D?niel <danbalogh at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Dear All,
> could someone help me with the Gujarati doggerel in Rushdie's Midnight's
> Children? A friend of mine is revising the Hungarian translation of the
> book and we are using a Hungarian phonetic approximation of the indic words
> rather than the English spelling. So what I'm interested in is the correct
> Gujarati spelling (if you can write Gujarati in Unicode, I'll be able to
> read it with a table; or you could use Devanagari or IAST to make my job
> even easier). If the pronunciation is different from how a Hindi speaker
> would pronounce the words, please also say a word or two about how this
> should sound. I'm fluent in Hindi but know nothing about Gujarati.
> The Anglicised version goes "Soo che? Saru che! Danda le ke maru che!",
> and Rushdie's translation is "How are you?-I am well! - I'II take a stick
> and thrash you to hell!"
> Here's my guess of how this would look in Devanagari
> ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???
> But "???? ??" is the only phrase I've managed to find on the web; "?? ??"
> is just guesswork and probably wrong, while the latter part is based on
> Hindi.
> So if any Gujarati speaker can help, your contribution will be most
> welcome.
> Daniel
>
>
> ------------------------------
>    <http://www.avast.com/>
>
> Ez a lev?l v?rus, ?s rosszindulat?-k?d mentes, mert az avast! Antivirus
> <http://www.avast.com/> v?delem akt?v.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From danbalogh at gmail.com  Fri Jul 25 17:03:57 2014
From: danbalogh at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Balogh_D=C3=A1niel?=)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 14 19:03:57 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soo che? Saru che... Gujarati
In-Reply-To: <53D24EC7.8000609@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53D28DFD.1090307@gmail.com>

Thanks to Jay Soni and Bindu Bhatt for their quick replies. I've now got 
the correct Gujarati text. I'll be away from the computer for a few days 
now so I won't be able to respond quickly to any further contributions.
The only thing I still don't know is whether ? is pronounced as a 
palatal in standard Gujarati, or does it sound the same as ?, becoming 
dental as it does in the language of many Hindi speakers (though not 
standard Hindi).
All the best,
Daniel

---
A lev?l v?rus, ?s rosszindulat? k?d mentes, mert az avast! Antivirus v?delme ellen?rizte azt.
http://www.avast.com






From adheesh1 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 25 17:17:10 2014
From: adheesh1 at gmail.com (Adheesh Sathaye)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 14 10:17:10 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soo che? Saru che... Gujarati
In-Reply-To: <53D24EC7.8000609@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12163A47-30FD-466B-BE8A-4D26733B48C3@gmail.com>

Dear Daniel,

An interesting question, and I am sure some of our Gujarati-speaking colleagues can provide you an accurate Gujarati original text. However, it might be worthwhile to consider the theoretical principles involved in the exercise of translation here. 

1. Rushdie has published his novel in English, not Gujarati, and has provided an Anglicised text that approximates his impressions of how *Marathi* speakers were pronouncing this anti-Gujarati slur while marching against Gujaratis in post-Independence Bombay during the language controversies in the splitting of Maharashtra and Gujarat.

2. It furthermore is designed to reflect the received impressions of his protagonist, an Anglicised, non-Gujarati and non-Maharashtrian bystander in Bombay hearing Marathi speakers butchering Gujarati (in more ways than one, perhaps, as the ?da??? le ke? is in fact Bambaiyaa Hindi, and not Gujarati, as far as I know). 

3. There is, therefore, something intentionally ?incorrect? and ?ungrammatical? about the hybridized chant, the linguistic violence of which imitates the actual violence on the ground. 

4. wouldn?t it then be prudent to leave Rushdie?s original as it is, in ?Anglicised? form, and render his English translation?which attempts to recreate the rhyme of the chant?into rhyming Hungarian?

Just my impressions. 

Best wishes,
Adheesh

----
Adheesh Sathaye
Department of Asian Studies
University of British Columbia

On Jul 25, 2014, at 5.34, Balogh D?niel <danbalogh at GMAIL.COM> wrote:

> Dear All,
> could someone help me with the Gujarati doggerel in Rushdie's Midnight's Children? A friend of mine is revising the Hungarian translation of the book and we are using a Hungarian phonetic approximation of the indic words rather than the English spelling. So what I'm interested in is the correct Gujarati spelling (if you can write Gujarati in Unicode, I'll be able to read it with a table; or you could use Devanagari or IAST to make my job even easier). If the pronunciation is different from how a Hindi speaker would pronounce the words, please also say a word or two about how this should sound. I'm fluent in Hindi but know nothing about Gujarati. 
> The Anglicised version goes "Soo che? Saru che! Danda le ke maru che!", and Rushdie's translation is "How are you?-I am well! - I'II take a stick and thrash you to hell!" 
> Here's my guess of how this would look in Devanagari
> ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? 
> But "???? ??" is the only phrase I've managed to find on the web; "?? ??" is just guesswork and probably wrong, while the latter part is based on Hindi.
> So if any Gujarati speaker can help, your contribution will be most welcome.
> Daniel
> 
> 
> 	
> Ez a lev?l v?rus, ?s rosszindulat?-k?d mentes, mert az avast! Antivirus v?delem akt?v.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info










From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Jul 26 08:00:41 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 14 10:00:41 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soo che? Saru che... Gujarati
In-Reply-To: <53D24EC7.8000609@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcxbWB3ryzCERiNNqdnSAJj_GfL+k_s3xLRLwY7=OGtvw@mail.gmail.com>

Not the answer, but still, it's amazing what's possible.

?


On 25 July 2014 14:34, Balogh D?niel <danbalogh at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Dear All,
> could someone help me with the Gujarati doggerel in Rushdie's Midnight's
> Children? A friend of mine is revising the Hungarian translation of the
> book and we are using a Hungarian phonetic approximation of the indic words
> rather than the English spelling. So what I'm interested in is the correct
> Gujarati spelling (if you can write Gujarati in Unicode, I'll be able to
> read it with a table; or you could use Devanagari or IAST to make my job
> even easier). If the pronunciation is different from how a Hindi speaker
> would pronounce the words, please also say a word or two about how this
> should sound. I'm fluent in Hindi but know nothing about Gujarati.
> The Anglicised version goes "Soo che? Saru che! Danda le ke maru che!",
> and Rushdie's translation is "How are you?-I am well! - I'II take a stick
> and thrash you to hell!"
> Here's my guess of how this would look in Devanagari
> ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???
> But "???? ??" is the only phrase I've managed to find on the web; "?? ??"
> is just guesswork and probably wrong, while the latter part is based on
> Hindi.
> So if any Gujarati speaker can help, your contribution will be most
> welcome.
> Daniel
>
>
> ------------------------------
>    <http://www.avast.com/>
>
> Ez a lev?l v?rus, ?s rosszindulat?-k?d mentes, mert az avast! Antivirus
> <http://www.avast.com/> v?delem akt?v.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Jul 26 13:31:45 2014
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 14 15:31:45 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Tenure Track Vacancies at UPenn
In-Reply-To: <CACkWVxd7tKTNSL=Skc7LqEWN8rUB319iMUVTnRD5SUdGaquF=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeWxN6m+2Bw3cfa8C+rFMxak45ew0FZbxq40p+k6F4jpg@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Projit Mukharji <mukharji at sas.upenn.edu>
Date: 24 July 2014 18:07
Subject: Tenure Track Vacancies at UPenn
To: wujastyk at gmail.com


Dear Dominik,

I am writing to draw your attention to two tenure-track jobs at UPenn.
?[...]

The first job is in "global health" in the dept. of hist. & soc. of
science. Geographic area and time-period are open and we are open to
considering non-historians as well. The second job is in the religious
studies dept. and in the "material/ visual studies" of religion. I am
pasting both advertisements below this email.

Thanks for your help.
Warmly,
Projit

Global Health

The University of Pennsylvania?s Department of History and Sociology of
Science invites applications for a tenure-track position at the Assistant
Professor level in the history and sociocultural study of global health, to
begin July 1, 2015. In addition to contributing to the graduate program,
the successful candidate will play a crucial role in the Health and
Societies Program, a thriving interdisciplinary undergraduate major
administered through the department.

Interested candidates should submit a letter of application, CV, statement
of research, and the contact information for three individuals who have
agreed to provide a letter of recommendation at
http://facultysearches.provost.upenn.edu/postings/274. Recommenders will be
contacted by the University with instructions on how to submit a letter to
the website. Review of applications will begin October 1, 2014, and
continue until the position is filled. For additional information, contact
Beth Linker, chair of global health search committee, Department of History
and Sociology of Science, at linker at sas.upenn.edu. The Department of
History and Sociology of Science is strongly committed to Penn?s Action
Plan for Faculty Diversity and Excellence and to establishing a diverse
faculty (for more information see:
http://www.upenn.edu/almanac/volumes/v58/n02/diversityplan.html). The
University of Pennsylvania is an EOE. Minorities/Women/Individuals with
disabilities/Protected Veterans are encouraged to apply.


Material/ Visual Culture of Religion

The Department of Religious Studies at the University of Pennsylvania
invites applications for a tenure-track assistant professor in the field of
Religious Studies and Material/Visual Culture. The search committee is
especially interested in Material/Visual Culture specialists with research
experience in Africa and the African Diaspora, Asia, Latin America, or the
Middle East. Time period and sub-specialization are open. The successful
candidate for this new faculty position should have a compelling and
original research agenda and a commitment to pursue it within the
interdisciplinary framework offered by the Department of Religious Studies,
the School of Arts and Sciences, and the wider University. Recent Graduates
are particularly welcome to apply.

The successful candidate will participate in the department?s undergraduate
and graduate teaching mission. A normal teaching load is 4 courses per year
on a semester system. The University of Pennsylvania is a private research
university and a member of the Ivy League.

Interested candidates should apply at
http://facultysearches.provost.upenn.edu/postings/264 and submit a letter
of application, CV, statement of research, writing sample, and the contact
information for three individuals who will be asked by the University to
submit a letter of recommendation. The Department will begin reviewing
applications on October 15th, 2014. Applications will continue to be
considered until the position is filled.

The Department of Religious Studies is strongly committed to Penn?s Action
Plan for Faculty Diversity and Excellence and to establishing a diverse
faculty (for more information see:
http://www.upenn.edu/almanac/volumes/v58/n02/diversityplan.html). The
University of Pennsylvania is an EOE. Minorities/Women/Individuals with
disabilities/Protected Veterans are encouraged to apply.
 --
Projit B Mukharji, PhD.
Martin Meyerson Asst. Prof. in Interdisciplinary Studies,
Department of the History & Sociology of Science,
326, Claudia Cohen Hall,
249, S. 36th Street,
Philadelphia, PA - 19104-6304.
Tel:  215 898 8697


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From ssandahl at sympatico.ca  Sat Jul 26 13:59:15 2014
From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca (Stella Sandahl)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 14 09:59:15 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Institute in Rome
Message-ID: <BLU436-SMTP40737DF44C4E43CAEDE56BFFD0@phx.gbl>

Dear colleagues,

I have the pleasure to announce the creation of ISAS, L?instituto Internazionale di Studi Sud Asiatici  (International Institute of  South Asian Studies), a non-profit cultural association,  which will open in Rome, Italy this coming fall.

 ISAS? purpose is to encourage the development of knowledge, conservation and understanding of South Asia, with special emphasis on India. ISAS proposes to be a hub between South Asian academies and academicians and their Western counterparts by promoting cultural exchange and peaceful relations between the Western world and South Asia, and excellence in historical, socio-cultural, artistic, architectural and archeological research and the exchange of scholars and teachers with South Asian academic institutions, colleges and universities.

 ISAS will organize exhibitions, displays, national and international conferences, lectures, presentation of books, films/documentaries of cultural interest and study/research trips to South Asian countries and also offer courses in Indian culture, history and society along with teaching of ancient and modern languages.

 ISAS will also have a library for consultation.

 For further information please look at the website: http://www.institutesouthasia-rome.com

ISAS will be located in central  Rome at Via Reggio Emilia 81

With best regards to all
Stella Sandahl
--
Professor Stella Sandahl
Department of East Asian Studies
130 St. George St. room 14087
Toronto, ON M5S 3H1
ssandahl at sympatico.ca
stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca
 
 




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From witzel at fas.harvard.edu  Sun Jul 27 20:30:54 2014
From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 14 16:30:54 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] new EJVS 21 issue 1
Message-ID: <6B28C7A0-723E-49CC-8D6C-3D2B8DA16F4A@fas.harvard.edu>

Dear All,

it is a pleasure to announce yet another issue of the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies (vol.21, issue1):

Marcos Albino:

Vedic bh?mit?-


see: http://www.ejvs.laurasianacademy.com/

Cheers,

MW




> ============
> Michael Witzel
> witzel at fas.harvard.edu
> <www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm>
> Wales Prof. of Sanskrit &
> Director of Graduate Studies,
> Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University
> 1 Bow Street,
> Cambridge MA 02138, USA
> 
> phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, fax 617 - 496 8571;
> my direct line:  617- 496 2990










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From soni at staff.uni-marburg.de  Mon Jul 28 08:22:12 2014
From: soni at staff.uni-marburg.de (soni at staff.uni-marburg.de)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 14 10:22:12 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Vidyudd=C5=ABta=E1=B8=A5_10:_In_Memoriam_Hahn?=
Message-ID: <20140728102212.Horde.DiLRvPGOlJQmWKep--R5Gw7@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>

Dear Colleagues and Friends,

Professor Radhavallabh Tripathiji has shared with us some thoughts in  
memory of Professor Michael Hahn who passed away on 12th July 2014.  
Those of us who have known him will certainly appreciate them. I am  
happy that Professor Tripathiji gives Vi-D? the opportunity to keep  
this obituary on record.

Members of the IASS already have already seen this, so apologies for  
the repetition.

With best wishes,

Jay Soni
Secretary General  of the IASS

You will find all the other issues here:
http://www.sanskritassociation.org/the-e-messenger.php
-- 


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From danbalogh at gmail.com  Mon Jul 28 17:13:53 2014
From: danbalogh at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Balogh_D=C3=A1niel?=)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 14 19:13:53 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soo che? Saru che... Gujarati
In-Reply-To: <12163A47-30FD-466B-BE8A-4D26733B48C3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53D684D1.7090200@gmail.com>

Dear All,
thanks one more time for your comments. I consider the problem solved; 
the only reason I'm writing yet again is to reply to Adheesh Sathaye's 
great thoughts on the issue. What you say is very close to what I've 
been thinking, though I haven't formulated my thoughts so logically. 
This goes for your points 1 to 3; I don't agree with part of your point 
4. We have a long tradition in Hungary to transliterate foreign words, 
if they come from a language that uses a non-Latin script, into the 
closest possible Hungarian phonetic approximation. (I.e. any Latin 
script is rendered as in the original language, but words from Greek, 
Russian etc. - and Indic languages - get transcribed (in works meant for 
a lay audience, not in academic writing). This is easy on the reader, 
because Hungarian spelling is almost 100% phonetic anyway, one phoneme 
corresponds to one letter and vice versa, with very few exceptions.) So 
while Rushdie's English translation will - naturally - be rendered into 
rhyming Hungarian (actually, no future tense, this has already been done 
by the first translator of the book), the Gujju-Marathi-whatever part 
will need to be transcribed according to Hungarian pronunciation.
All the best,
Daniel

---
A lev?l v?rus, ?s rosszindulat? k?d mentes, mert az avast! Antivirus v?delme ellen?rizte azt.
http://www.avast.com






From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com  Tue Jul 29 22:58:05 2014
From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 14 18:58:05 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Announcement: New Journal of Hinduism & Call for Papers
Message-ID: <CADUnV137zj0STXeWa4m5jaOPbJRsQes88t1tKf5jWr=T7KW+Yw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello All,
 I am happy to announce the launch of a new journal of Hinduism. Please see
below for call for papers.
Thank you,
Lavanya

*International Journal of Dharma and Hindu Studies*



*Call for papers for inaugural issue*

*International Journal of Dharma and Hindu Studies* is a peer reviewed
international journal published online by Hindu University of America
dedicated to Dharma and Hindu studies covering all the religions with roots
in Vedic philosophy and originated from India.

The journal invites original scholarly articles for publication in its
inaugural issue scheduled to launch in October, 2014.

The journal is dedicated to encourage scholarly inquiry into the study of
all aspects of Hinduism. Hence, the inaugural issue of the journal is
especially interested in papers on subjects related to the examination of
original sources of Hinduism, and other Dharma traditions of India. The
journal seeks interdisciplinary analytical studies of original texts,
myths, archaeology, sacred geography, cosmology and cosmogony of Dharma,
and Hindu traditions. Historical, religious and cultural interpretation of
the multiple aspects of Hinduism and Dharma traditions, as adapted to
modern life also forms the central focus of the inaugural issue.

Please contact the following for further information or to submit your
paper: IJDHS at hua.edu or to either the Editor: lvemsani at shawnee.edu or
associate editor yvpathak2012 at gmail.com

-- 

*Dr. Lavanya Vemsani*  Ph.D. History (Univ. of Hyderabad) & Ph.D. Religious
Studies (McMaster Univ.)

Distinguished Professor of History, Department of Social Sciences

Portsmouth OH 45662

V:7403513233 F:7403513153 E:lvemsani at shawnee.edu


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From palaniappa at aol.com  Wed Jul 30 05:03:34 2014
From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 14 01:03:34 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Announcement: New Journal of Hinduism & Call for	Papers
In-Reply-To: <CADUnV137zj0STXeWa4m5jaOPbJRsQes88t1tKf5jWr=T7KW+Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8D179CABFDA0C07-23A8-F118@webmail-va014.sysops.aol.com>

Is Hindu University of America an accredited university? Why does its website show courses only for Winter 2010 (http://www.hua.edu/Fall_2009.php) ? And why is the catalog for 2007 shown as the catalog (http://www.hua.edu/catalog.pdf)?


Thanks


Regards,
Palaniappan




-----Original Message-----
From: Lavanya Vemsani <lavanyavemsani at gmail.com>
To: indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Tue, Jul 29, 2014 5:58 pm
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Announcement: New Journal of Hinduism & Call for Papers


Hello All,
 I am happy to announce the launch of a new journal of Hinduism. Please see below for call for papers. 
Thank you,
Lavanya



InternationalJournal of Dharma and Hindu Studies
 
Call for papers forinaugural issue
InternationalJournal of Dharma and Hindu Studiesis a peer reviewed international journalpublished online by Hindu University of America dedicated to Dharma and Hindustudies covering all the religions with roots in Vedic philosophy andoriginated from India. 
The journal invites original scholarlyarticles for publication in its inaugural issue scheduled to launch in October,2014. 
The journal is dedicated to encouragescholarly inquiry into the study of all aspects of Hinduism. Hence, the inauguralissue of the journal is especially interested in papers on subjects related tothe examination of original sources of Hinduism, and other Dharma traditions ofIndia. The journal seeks interdisciplinary analytical studies of originaltexts, myths, archaeology, sacred geography, cosmology and cosmogony of Dharma,and Hindu traditions. Historical, religious and cultural interpretation of themultiple aspects of Hinduism and Dharma traditions, as adapted to modern life alsoforms the central focus of the inaugural issue.  
Please contact the following for furtherinformation or to submit your paper: IJDHS at hua.edu or to either the Editor: lvemsani at shawnee.edu orassociate editor yvpathak2012 at gmail.com 


-- 

Dr. Lavanya Vemsani  Ph.D. History (Univ. of Hyderabad) & Ph.D. Religious Studies (McMaster Univ.)
Distinguished Professor of History, Department of Social Sciences
Portsmouth OH 45662
V:7403513233 F:7403513153 E:lvemsani at shawnee.edu



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info

 


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From julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de  Wed Jul 30 10:45:51 2014
From: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de (Julia Hegewald)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 14 12:45:51 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Searching urgently for a scan/pdf of an article from	Lalit-Kala
Message-ID: <CFFE997F.14E78%julia.hegewald@uni-bonn.de>

Dear colleagues and friends,

For a project in our department we are looking for the following article
which allegedly should be in Bonn but, unfortunately, the volume  is
missing. 

Has anybody access to the following copy of the journal Lalit-Kala and could
send me a Pdf/scan of the article off the list? I would be most grateful for
any support.

Author: Pramod Chandra
Title: "The Kaula-Kapalika Cults at Khajuraho."
Journal: Lalit-Kala
Vol.: 1-2
Year of publication: (April 1955 -March 1956)
page: 103 (really only one page long???)

Thanking you in advance.
With kind regards,

Julia Hegewald.

-- 
Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald
Professor of Oriental Art History
Head of Department
University of Bonn
Institute of Oriental and Asian Studies (IOA)
Department of Asian and Islamic Art History
Adenauerallee 10
53113 Bonn
Germany

Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de
www.aik.uni-bonn.de
Tel. 0049-228-73 7213
Fax. 0049-228-73 4042







From f.ferrari at chester.ac.uk  Wed Jul 30 11:01:44 2014
From: f.ferrari at chester.ac.uk (Fabrizio Ferrari)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 14 11:01:44 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article by Wilhelm Rau
Message-ID: <8B8F0BADB529EE4CBA6DEAF2FF002B1501A5F8C4C1@MWRS1BLADE7.Chester.lan>

Dear colleagues,

I am struggling to find the following article:

Rau, Wilhelm (1980-1981) ?A note on the donkey and the mule in early Vedic literature,? The Adyar Library Bulletin, 44-5, pp. 179-89.

Does anybody have a copy and be willing to share it?
with all good wishes,

Fabrizio





Fabrizio M. Ferrari, PhD
Professor of South Asian Religions
Department of Theology and Religious Studies
University of Chester
Parkgate Road
Chester CH1 4BJ
Tel 01244 511039
f.ferrari at chester.ac.uk<mailto:f.ferrari at chester.ac.uk>


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From julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de  Thu Jul 31 08:04:27 2014
From: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de (Julia Hegewald)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 14 10:04:27 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Thanks for providing us with a scan/pdf of an article	from Lalit-Kala
In-Reply-To: <CFFE997F.14E78%julia.hegewald@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <CFFFC52B.14EA9%julia.hegewald@uni-bonn.de>

Dear members of the list,

I would like to thank Patrick Mc Allister,  Adam Bowles and R. Narenthiran
for their kind support with the article we were looking for. We now have all
we need. Thank you so much once again.

With all best wishes,

Julia Hegewald.


-- 
Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald
Professor of Oriental Art History
Head of Department
University of Bonn
Institute of Oriental and Asian Studies (IOA)
Department of Asian and Islamic Art History
Adenauerallee 10
53113 Bonn
Germany

Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de
www.aik.uni-bonn.de
Tel. 0049-228-73 7213
Fax. 0049-228-73 4042



On [DATE], "Julia Hegewald" <[ADDRESS]> wrote:

> Dear colleagues and friends,
> 
> For a project in our department we are looking for the following article
> which allegedly should be in Bonn but, unfortunately, the volume  is
> missing. 
> 
> Has anybody access to the following copy of the journal Lalit-Kala and could
> send me a Pdf/scan of the article off the list? I would be most grateful for
> any support.
> 
> Author: Pramod Chandra
> Title: "The Kaula-Kapalika Cults at Khajuraho."
> Journal: Lalit-Kala
> Vol.: 1-2
> Year of publication: (April 1955 -March 1956)
> page: 103 (really only one page long???)
> 
> Thanking you in advance.
> With kind regards,
> 
> Julia Hegewald.







From charlesdisimone at gmail.com  Thu Jul 31 21:17:31 2014
From: charlesdisimone at gmail.com (Charles DiSimone)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 14 23:17:31 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_PhD_Scholarship_for_Buddhist_Studies_at_the_Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit=C3=A4t_in_Munich,_Germany?=
Message-ID: <CAP2_iYdds0H_gO27-Ea7UNJPWyg93MF9++eeQaYeLOAQjsK63w@mail.gmail.com>

Posting for a colleague who is not a member of the list:

Dear colleagues,

The Doctoral Program in Buddhist Studies at the
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t in Munich, Germany invites applications for
two PhD scholarships for dissertation projects related to Buddhism.

Deadline for applications: 15 September 2014
Start of scholarship: Spring semester 2015 or later
Duration of scholarship: 3 or 4 years
Scholarship amount: 1000 ? per month + insurance + support for rent + 460?
per year
Scholarship donor: German Academic Exchange Service (DAAD)

The selection process comprises two stages: Applications are sent to the
Doctoral Program in Buddhist Studies in Munich. The program will select
promising candidates, who then have to submit their materials to the DAAD.
Subsequently, an election committee chosen by the DAAD decides upon the
successful candidates. It is expected that the successful candidates will
be chosen and informed by February or March 2015.

The prerequisites for application are non-German citizenship (foreign
applicants should not have lived in Germany for more than fifteen months at
the time of their application), a Master of Arts or Magister Artium degree
or equivalent, excellent knowledge of at least one Buddhist source
language, outstanding qualifications in the subject, and fluency in
English. A basic knowledge of German is also desirable, though not a
prerequisite, but willingness to learn German/improve German language
skills will be expected. It is desirable that, at the time of the
application, the last final examination has taken place no more than six
years ago.


For details concerning the application, please visit our homepage:
http://www.en.buddhismus-studien.uni-muenchen.de/currentissues/phd_scholarships2015/index.html


Best wishes,
Simone Heidegger

-- 
Charles DiSimone
Promotionsprogramm Buddhismus-Studien
Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t, M?nchen


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