From martin.gansten at pbhome.se Mon Feb 3 08:46:05 2014 From: martin.gansten at pbhome.se (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 03 Feb 14 09:46:05 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] MSS in Sarasvati Bhavan Library Message-ID: <52EF574D.2000307@pbhome.se> I recently found out that a number of MSS of texts for which I have been searching for several years are present in Sarasvati Bhavan Library, Varanasi. Moreover, I was told that they have all been digitized; but I have been given rather conflicting accounts of their availability. According to one informant, the digitized texts can be accessed and copied at a cost (but only piecemeal, no more than 25% of a text at a time) from within the IGNCA in Delhi. A catalogue of Sarasvati Bhavan Library MSS is found on the IGNCA website: http://ignca.nic.in/ According to another informant, however, although the manuscripts have been digitized, there is no facility for getting digital copies; and the written permission of the Vice Chancellor of Sampoornanand Sanskrit University in Varanasi is needed for either reading or gettting a photocopy of any manuscript. Even with such a permission, I was told, I am unlikely to be allowed to view more than a few MSS. In view of these conflicting and not very encouraging reports, I wonder if any colleagues on the list have practical experience of accessing Sarasvati Bhavan Library MSS, and have any advice to offer. All tips and other forms of assistance would be most gratefully received! Martin Gansten From witzel at fas.harvard.edu Mon Feb 3 13:41:46 2014 From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 03 Feb 14 08:41:46 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] MSS in Sarasvati Bhavan Library In-Reply-To: <52EF574D.2000307@pbhome.se> Message-ID: No tips but a story or two. I have visited the Sarasvati Bhavan Library 3 times (from Kathmandu) in 1973 and 1974, and have ordered the microfilm of a Vedic text (Kapisthala), paid the fee, gave them a roll of unexposed microfilm and even the developer. I am still waiting for the film ordered in March 1974 -- for 40 years now. Two or three years ago their Vice-Chancellor wrote to me asking whether he could publish a text that we had slated for publication in the Harvard Oriental Series. I answered, well yes -- but first please deliver my microfilm. No answer. To quote the then (1974) vice-director of the National Archives in New Delhi: "You European scholars always are in a hurry. We are not in hurry--- we have many lives." -- To which I answered: "I have only one, so please give me (the film)." Then she gave... Apparently one life is not be long enough to get anything out of the Sarasvati Bhavan Library. Cheers! Michael PS, fed up with this situation, I wrote to the G?ttingen Library, who have a copy of the Benares Kapisthala Samhita made for Kielhorn, and asked them for a film/scan. They said they were very busy and it may take some time. Three weeks later the copy was in my mail. One life, indeed. On Feb 3, 2014, at 3:46 AM, Martin Gansten wrote: > I recently found out that a number of MSS of texts for which I have been searching for several years are present in Sarasvati Bhavan Library, Varanasi. Moreover, I was told that they have all been digitized; but I have been given rather conflicting accounts of their availability. > > According to one informant, the digitized texts can be accessed and copied at a cost (but only piecemeal, no more than 25% of a text at a time) from within the IGNCA in Delhi. A catalogue of Sarasvati Bhavan Library MSS is found on the IGNCA website: > http://ignca.nic.in/ > > According to another informant, however, although the manuscripts have been digitized, there is no facility for getting digital copies; and the written permission of the Vice Chancellor of Sampoornanand Sanskrit University in Varanasi is needed for either reading or gettting a photocopy of any manuscript. Even with such a permission, I was told, I am unlikely to be allowed to view more than a few MSS. > > In view of these conflicting and not very encouraging reports, I wonder if any colleagues on the list have practical experience of accessing Sarasvati Bhavan Library MSS, and have any advice to offer. All tips and other forms of assistance would be most gratefully received! > > Martin Gansten > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > ============ > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > Wales Prof. of Sanskrit & > Director of Graduate Studies, > Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, fax 617 - 496 8571; > my direct line: 617- 496 2990 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Feb 3 13:54:04 2014 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 03 Feb 14 08:54:04 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] MSS in Sarasvati Bhavan Library In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My experience with the Sarasvati Bhavan Library is similar to that of Michael. In mid-80s, I had located a manuscript at the SBL, and paid for making a microfilm/copy, but there was no response. Finally, if I remember correctly, my Guruji, Professor Cardona, happened to be in Banaras, and it was his personal intervention that got me the ms copies that I needed. Madhav Deshpande On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 8:41 AM, Michael Witzel wrote: > No tips but a story or two. > > I have visited the Sarasvati Bhavan Library 3 times (from Kathmandu) in > 1973 and 1974, and have ordered the microfilm of a Vedic text (Kapisthala), > paid the fee, gave them a roll of unexposed microfilm and even the > developer. I am still waiting for the film ordered in March 1974 -- for > 40 years now. > > Two or three years ago their Vice-Chancellor wrote to me asking whether he > could publish a text that we had slated for publication in the Harvard > Oriental Series. I answered, well yes -- but first please deliver my > microfilm. No answer. > > To quote the then (1974) vice-director of the National Archives in New > Delhi: > "You European scholars always are in a hurry. We are not in hurry--- we > have many lives." -- > To which I answered: "I have only one, so please give me (the film)." > Then she gave... > > Apparently one life is not be long enough to get anything out of > the Sarasvati Bhavan Library. > > Cheers! > > Michael > > > PS, fed up with this situation, I wrote to the G?ttingen Library, who have > a copy of the Benares Kapisthala Samhita made for Kielhorn, and asked them > for a film/scan. They said they were very busy and it may take some time. > Three weeks later the copy was in my mail. > One life, indeed. > > > On Feb 3, 2014, at 3:46 AM, Martin Gansten wrote: > > I recently found out that a number of MSS of texts for which I have been > searching for several years are present in Sarasvati Bhavan Library, > Varanasi. Moreover, I was told that they have all been digitized; but I > have been given rather conflicting accounts of their availability. > > According to one informant, the digitized texts can be accessed and copied > at a cost (but only piecemeal, no more than 25% of a text at a time) from > within the IGNCA in Delhi. A catalogue of Sarasvati Bhavan Library MSS is > found on the IGNCA website: > http://ignca.nic.in/ > > According to another informant, however, although the manuscripts have > been digitized, there is no facility for getting digital copies; and the > written permission of the Vice Chancellor of Sampoornanand Sanskrit > University in Varanasi is needed for either reading or gettting a photocopy > of any manuscript. Even with such a permission, I was told, I am unlikely > to be allowed to view more than a few MSS. > > In view of these conflicting and not very encouraging reports, I wonder if > any colleagues on the list have practical experience of accessing Sarasvati > Bhavan Library MSS, and have any advice to offer. All tips and other forms > of assistance would be most gratefully received! > > Martin Gansten > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > ============ > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > > > Wales Prof. of Sanskrit & > Director of Graduate Studies, > Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, fax 617 - 496 8571; > my direct line: 617- 496 2990 > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cardonagj at verizon.net Mon Feb 3 14:21:58 2014 From: cardonagj at verizon.net (George Cardona) Date: Mon, 03 Feb 14 09:21:58 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] MSS in Sarasvati Bhavan Library In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, the Sarasvatibhavan library has a history of difficulty. My personal experience, from the late 1969's on, is that one must know someone directly connected with the library to have anything done. Laxmi Narayan Tiwari, when he was librarian, was extremely helpful in letting me have access to manuscripts and later librarians also helped me because of my association with Tiwari and R. K. Sharma when he was Vice Chancellor. I too once left a sum of money to have manuscripts microfilmed and sent, without any quick action. It was only through the intervention of Dr. Nambiar, of the American Institute of Indian Studies, who personally went and saw to it that the manuscripts were copied, then sent them on to me, that I was able to get copies to work on outside. This situation has continued. It is, however, understandable that great caution is taken by the authorities. At one time, it was discovered that some manuscripts has disappeared, apparently stolen and sold to some one (or persons) outside. The UP government then sealed the library, literally with a large padlock with a was seal. At that time, I think in the late seventies and early eighties, once more through friends, I was able to consult manuscripts, but only with a police escort accompanying me and sitting opposite me while I read. As for the Indira Gandhi centre in Delhi, I found this most disappointing. I wanted some K?tantra manuscripts that were in the Sarasvatibhavan. At the time, the latter was closed again. In Delhi, I was informed that, although they had microfilm copies of the manuscripts I wished to consult, they could not allow this until the Vice Chancellor of the Sampurnanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalay gave his permission in writing; this did not come through. What the use can be of having duplicate copies of microfilms in Delhi, then, is beyond me, and I gave up. So, I share the frustration of scholars but do not see any quick development in the offing. George Cardona On Feb 3, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > My experience with the Sarasvati Bhavan Library is similar to that of Michael. In mid-80s, I had located a manuscript at the SBL, and paid for making a microfilm/copy, but there was no response. Finally, if I remember correctly, my Guruji, Professor Cardona, happened to be in Banaras, and it was his personal intervention that got me the ms copies that I needed. > > Madhav Deshpande > > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 8:41 AM, Michael Witzel wrote: > No tips but a story or two. > > I have visited the Sarasvati Bhavan Library 3 times (from Kathmandu) in 1973 and 1974, and have ordered the microfilm of a Vedic text (Kapisthala), paid the fee, gave them a roll of unexposed microfilm and even the developer. I am still waiting for the film ordered in March 1974 -- for 40 years now. > > Two or three years ago their Vice-Chancellor wrote to me asking whether he could publish a text that we had slated for publication in the Harvard Oriental Series. I answered, well yes -- but first please deliver my microfilm. No answer. > > To quote the then (1974) vice-director of the National Archives in New Delhi: > "You European scholars always are in a hurry. We are not in hurry--- we have many lives." -- > To which I answered: "I have only one, so please give me (the film)." > Then she gave... > > Apparently one life is not be long enough to get anything out of the Sarasvati Bhavan Library. > > Cheers! > > Michael > > > PS, fed up with this situation, I wrote to the G?ttingen Library, who have a copy of the Benares Kapisthala Samhita made for Kielhorn, and asked them for a film/scan. They said they were very busy and it may take some time. Three weeks later the copy was in my mail. > One life, indeed. > > > On Feb 3, 2014, at 3:46 AM, Martin Gansten wrote: > >> I recently found out that a number of MSS of texts for which I have been searching for several years are present in Sarasvati Bhavan Library, Varanasi. Moreover, I was told that they have all been digitized; but I have been given rather conflicting accounts of their availability. >> >> According to one informant, the digitized texts can be accessed and copied at a cost (but only piecemeal, no more than 25% of a text at a time) from within the IGNCA in Delhi. A catalogue of Sarasvati Bhavan Library MSS is found on the IGNCA website: >> http://ignca.nic.in/ >> >> According to another informant, however, although the manuscripts have been digitized, there is no facility for getting digital copies; and the written permission of the Vice Chancellor of Sampoornanand Sanskrit University in Varanasi is needed for either reading or gettting a photocopy of any manuscript. Even with such a permission, I was told, I am unlikely to be allowed to view more than a few MSS. >> >> In view of these conflicting and not very encouraging reports, I wonder if any colleagues on the list have practical experience of accessing Sarasvati Bhavan Library MSS, and have any advice to offer. All tips and other forms of assistance would be most gratefully received! >> >> Martin Gansten >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info > >> ============ >> Michael Witzel >> witzel at fas.harvard.edu >> >> Wales Prof. of Sanskrit & >> Director of Graduate Studies, >> Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University >> 1 Bow Street, >> Cambridge MA 02138, USA >> >> phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, fax 617 - 496 8571; >> my direct line: 617- 496 2990 > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > -- > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics > Department of Asian Languages and Cultures > 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 > The University of Michigan > Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Mon Feb 3 23:11:17 2014 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 14 00:11:17 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Perso-Indica Post-doctoral Positions_2014-2015 Call for Applications Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Fabrizio Speziale Date: 3 February 2014 17:19 Subject: Perso-Indica Post-doctoral Positions_2014-2015 Call for Applications *2014-2015 Call for Applications* *Two Post-doctoral Positions, *within the project ?Perso-Indica?. University Sorbonne Nouvelle, Paris - Friedrich-Wilhelm University, Bonn. *General information* Two post-doctoral full-time positions are offered within the project ?Perso-Indica: the Persanisation of Indian learning (13th-19th centuries)? funded by the *Franco-German Program in Social Sciences and Humanities* of the *French National Research Agency* (*ANR*) and the *German Research Foundation *(*DFG*). The ANR-DFG project is coordinated by Fabrizio Speziale (University Sorbonne Nouvelle, Paris) and Eva Orthmann (Friedrich-Wilhelm University, Bonn). The ANR funded position will be attached to the *University Sorbonne Nouvelle*, Paris (UMR 7528 Mondes iranien et indien), while the DFG funded position will be attached to the *Friedrich-Wilhelm University*, Bonn (Institute for Oriental and Asian Studies). Candidates should demonstrate the ability to work on primary sources in Persian and a working knowledge in at least one Indian language (Sanskrit, Hindi, Urdu, etc.) and should be well familiar with the topics of the Perso-Indica project (see: *www.perso-indica.net *). *Terms and conditions of Positions* The positions are awarded for one year beginning in October 2014. The positions offer a salary for the entire period at the rates applied by the ANR and the DFG for post-doctoral positions. Positions are residential and selected candidates are required to live in Paris or Bonn. There is no teaching load but selected candidates are required to devote their time to collaborate to the main activities of the project, such as the writing and edition of the entries of the Survey and the organization of the Perso-Indica conferences. For the position in Bonn, selected candidates should be able and willing to work on Persian glossaries of Indic terms. Selected candidates will be asked to submit a short report at the end of position. *For conditions and application procedures, see**: **http://perso-indica.net/events-news.faces?news=17 * -- Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP, A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. JEMHouben at gmail.com www.jyotistoma.nl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Feb 4 11:02:36 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 14 12:02:36 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_=E2=80=8B_New_Etexts_in_the_Muktabodha_Digital_Library?= Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Harry Spier Date: 31 January 2014 06:18 Subject: Please forward to Indology list To: indology-owner at list.indology.info If the following message could be forwarded to the Indology list with the subject title: " ?? New Etexts in the Muktabodha Digital Library", I'd greatly appreciate it. Harry Spier ------------------------------- Dear list members, The Muktabodha Indological Research Institute has recently added the following 31 searchable etexts ( 19 of which are unedited manuscripts) to our digital library of Tantric/Agamic literature at: http://muktalib5.org/digital_library.htm We now have over 300 searchable etexts in our library. In the past we have not announced new additions to the library but we will do so in the future. Harry Spier Manager, Muktabodha Digital Library ---------------------------------- ??caryayogam?l? NGMCP 1-33 Reel: B 114/19 u???mare?varatantra KSTS volume 70 k?kaca??de?var?mata NGMCP 3-118 Reel: A 211/8 k?l?kalpalat? NGMCP 5-6521 Reel: B 120/9 k?makal?vil?sa KSTS volume 12 k?lottara called b?hadk?lottara NGMCP pra - 89 Reel B 29/59 kulas?ra NGMCP 3-251 Reel: A 150/16 kulasAra NGMCP 4-137/vi Reel: A 40/11 kul?nand?di NGMCP 1-1376/vi kriy?k?lag?nottara NGMCP 3-392 Reel: B 25/32 gorak?agu?ik? NGMCP 2120 Reel: A 62/3 gorak?amudgara NGMCP 5-332 Reel: B 24/6 gorak?ayoga??stra NGMCP 5-332 Reel: B24/44 tattvaratn?val? NGMCP 1-1697-7/6 Reel: B 26/16 tantras?ra KSTS volume 17 d?k?ottara of the nisv?sak?rika IFP T0017B folio 795 to end ni?v?sak?rik?tantra IFP T0017A bh?vac???ma?i NGMCP : 6-1748 Reel: A 989/23 mantrako?a NGMCP 5-470 Reel: A 169/8 m?lin?vijayav?rtika KSTS volume 31 yogap??hakramodaya NGMCP 4-31/vi Reel: A4319 vimal?vat?tantra NGMCP 1-431 Reel: A186/10 spandak?rik? KSTS volume 42 h?h?r?vatantra NGMCP 5-4798 Reel: A 204/6 ------ >From the series: Yoga Upani?ads with the commentary of Sri Upani?ad-Brahmayogin ------ tri?ikhibr?hma?opani?at dar?anopani?at yogaku??alyupani?at yogac???ma?yupani?at yogatattvopani?at yoga?ikhopani?at v?r?hopani?at -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Feb 4 11:03:38 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 14 12:03:38 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: New historical dictionary of the Bengali language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Dominik Wujastyk Date: 31 January 2014 12:50 Subject: New historical dictionary of the Bengali language ? ?Please address queries to the author, Joanna Kirkpatrick ? .? ? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jo Date: 31 January 2014 06:55 Subject: with haste to convey a new production Dear All, I just heard from my long-time friend, ?? Ghulam Murshid , formerly on the Bangla Lang. and Lit. faculty at Rajshahi U., now resident in London a few decades already, about his and his team?s new diachronic dictionary. I had to ask for the title and publisher (they are not here). He wrote: > > > > > *I do not know if you would remember that I was heading a project of 12 > people to compile a diachronic dictionary. I worked for 3 years and a month > and edited the very last page on Saturday last. I have never worked so hard > on anything. It has turned into the largest Bengali dictionary (in 3 > volumes, more than 3200 pages) and first ever Bengali dictionary on > historical principle. In this dictionary we gave the origin of each word, > and then traced the first use of the word in written texts, with the > extract, author and year. Afterwards, we tried to trace the changes of the > word in form and meaning throughout centuries (until 1972). The first > volume has come out. The second one is expected to be out in the middle of > February, and third in March. A copy of this dictionary will be presented > to the PM tomorrow, and I came to Bangladesh on Wednesday to do it, in a > ceremony (organised by the Bangla Academy). * This is a prodigious contribution to the history of the Bengali language. I hope it achieves wide notice, here as well as abroad. Here is Murshid?s email contact: g ? ? h ? ? u ? ? l ? ? a ? ? m ? ? m ? ? u ? ? r ? ? s ? ? h ? ? i ? ? d ? ?AT aol DOT com Best wishes, Joanna Kirkpatrick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From J.L.Brockington at ed.ac.uk Tue Feb 4 12:25:25 2014 From: J.L.Brockington at ed.ac.uk (BROCKINGTON John) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 14 12:25:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Change of website for the 16th WSC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, In case any of you want more information on or need to contact the organisers of the next World Sanskrit Conference in July next year, I forward the message below that I have just received. Best wishes John Brockington Professor J. L. Brockington Fellow, Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit, University of Edinburgh Vice President, International Association of Sanskrit Studies ________________________________________ From: 16th World Sanskrit Conference [worldsanskrit at hotmail.com] Sent: 04 February 2014 12:23 To: BROCKINGTON John Subject: Change of website for the 16th WSC Dear Profs. Brockington, Greetings from Bangkok, Thailand. This is to inform you that the University Website hosting the Sanskrit Studies Centre (www.ssc.su.ac.th ) is currently down and often becomes non-functional due to the upgradation work going on at the University. Therefore, we have created alternate website so that the 16th WSC work does not get affected. The following two would work now onwards:WWW.SANSKRIT-SILPAKORN.ORG and WWW.SANSKRIT-THAILAND.COM. Both First Announcement and Online Registration Form would be accessible from these two new web addresses onwards. When, the Silkpakorn University website will be restored, that will work as the third website. However, we would recommend you to use the new alternate websites as given above. Please inform the concerned scholars. We are sorry for inconvenience. Regards, Secretariat, 16th World Sanskrit Conference, 2015 Sanskrit Studies Centre, Silpakorn University, Bangkok, Thailand -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From martin.gansten at pbhome.se Tue Feb 4 13:37:42 2014 From: martin.gansten at pbhome.se (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 14 14:37:42 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] MSS in Sarasvati Bhavan Library In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <52F0ED26.8070201@pbhome.se> My thanks to Michael Witzel, Madhav Deshpande and George Cardona for sharing their views and experiences. It's a sorry situation indeed. The Sarasvati Bhavan Library catalogue includes some 120 MSS of 15 different texts relevant to my current research, some of them very rare -- but apparently unavailable. The situation lends a new meaning to the dictum 'pustakasth? tu y? vidy? parahastagata? dhanam'... Martin Gansten From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Feb 4 16:05:27 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 14 17:05:27 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] MSS in Sarasvati Bhavan Library In-Reply-To: <52F0ED26.8070201@pbhome.se> Message-ID: Nowadays, online tools make it possible to compile an international petition. See, e.g., change.org, etc. What do we think as a community about raising a petition to the minister of culture (see their National Mission on Libraries ) about the inaccessibility of MSS at the SBL and the damage done thereby to national and international scholarship on the history of Indian culture? Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies , University of Vienna, Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria and Adjunct Professor, Division of Health and Humanities, St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. Project | home page| HSSA | PGP On 4 February 2014 14:37, Martin Gansten wrote: > My thanks to Michael Witzel, Madhav Deshpande and George Cardona for > sharing their views and experiences. It's a sorry situation indeed. The > Sarasvati Bhavan Library catalogue includes some 120 MSS of 15 different > texts relevant to my current research, some of them very rare -- but > apparently unavailable. The situation lends a new meaning to the dictum > 'pustakasth? tu y? vidy? parahastagata? dhanam'... > > > Martin Gansten > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Tue Feb 4 17:05:51 2014 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 14 22:35:51 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] copper late grant of Kaudev shake 1182 Message-ID: short reference of this grant is mentioned in the no xv of the vol IV (January 1852) issue. Gen Jacob further guides to refer to Vol 5 Royal asiatic society journal p. 177 where 'an imperfect eye copy is given and translation are given'. I am not able to locate this reference. need help regards Rupali Mokashi http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Tue Feb 4 17:15:25 2014 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 14 22:45:25 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] journal of epigraphical society of india volume 29 Message-ID: i need pdf/ e copy of this volume http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martin.gansten at pbhome.se Wed Feb 5 13:55:36 2014 From: martin.gansten at pbhome.se (Martin Gansten) Date: Wed, 05 Feb 14 14:55:36 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] MSS in Sarasvati Bhavan Library In-Reply-To: <52F0ED26.8070201@pbhome.se> Message-ID: <52F242D8.2050805@pbhome.se> Perhaps obviously, I'd be all for such an initiative... Martin Dominik Wujastyk skrev 2014-02-04 17:05: > Nowadays, online tools make it possible to compile an international > petition. See, e.g., change.org , etc. What do we > think as a community about raising a petition to the minister of culture > (see their National Mission on Libraries ) > about the inaccessibility of MSS at the SBL and the damage done thereby > to national and international scholarship on the history of Indian culture? > > Best, > Dominik From e.demichelis at ymail.com Wed Feb 5 14:44:25 2014 From: e.demichelis at ymail.com (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Wed, 05 Feb 14 14:44:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] MSS in Sarasvati Bhavan Library In-Reply-To: <52F242D8.2050805@pbhome.se> Message-ID: <1391611465.20706.YahooMailNeo@web172704.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Though I do not work on mss myself, I know how important this kind of work is for the whole scholarly community. So why not try to get some result through a petition as suggested by Dominik?I for one would certainly sign it. The petition should probably be worded in such a way as not to make the SBL staff feel threatened or singled out; in this context the theft risks mentioned by Prof Cardona could be mentioned as understood and relevant. A programme of digitalisation could also be suggested, pointing out that it would resolve the problem of theft risks. A good project for the Indian Ministry of Culture itself or for some foreign body, or for a cooperation? Who knows - a petition may stimulate the National Mission on Libraries, a fairly recent institution, to focus some of their attention and energies on the SBL... Greetings to all, Elizabeth De Michelis Independent scholar On Wednesday, 5 February 2014, 14:56, Martin Gansten wrote: Perhaps obviously, I'd be all for such an initiative... Martin Dominik Wujastyk skrev 2014-02-04 17:05: > Nowadays, online tools make it possible to compile an international > petition.? See, e.g., change.org , etc. What do we > think as a community about raising a petition to the minister of culture > (see their National Mission on Libraries ) > about the inaccessibility of MSS at the SBL and the damage done thereby > to national and international scholarship on the history of Indian culture? > > Best, > Dominik _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Wed Feb 5 14:52:18 2014 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 05 Feb 14 14:52:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] MSS in Sarasvati Bhavan Library In-Reply-To: <1391611465.20706.YahooMailNeo@web172704.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: An excellent idea. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK On 5 Feb 2014, at 14:44, Elizabeth De Michelis wrote: > Though I do not work on mss myself, I know how important this kind of work is for the whole scholarly community. So why not try to get some result through a petition as suggested by Dominik? I for one would certainly sign it. > > The petition should probably be worded in such a way as not to make the SBL staff feel threatened or singled out; in this context the theft risks mentioned by Prof Cardona could be mentioned as understood and relevant. A programme of digitalisation could also be suggested, pointing out that it would resolve the problem of theft risks. A good project for the Indian Ministry of Culture itself or for some foreign body, or for a cooperation? Who knows - a petition may stimulate the National Mission on Libraries, a fairly recent institution, to focus some of their attention and energies on the SBL... > > Greetings to all, > Elizabeth De Michelis > Independent scholar > > > On Wednesday, 5 February 2014, 14:56, Martin Gansten wrote: > Perhaps obviously, I'd be all for such an initiative... > > Martin > > Dominik Wujastyk skrev 2014-02-04 17:05: > > Nowadays, online tools make it possible to compile an international > > petition. See, e.g., change.org , etc. What do we > > think as a community about raising a petition to the minister of culture > > (see their National Mission on Libraries ) > > about the inaccessibility of MSS at the SBL and the damage done thereby > > to national and international scholarship on the history of Indian culture? > > > > Best, > > Dominik > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tlsmith at ufl.edu Wed Feb 5 17:42:27 2014 From: tlsmith at ufl.edu (Smith,Travis LaMar) Date: Wed, 05 Feb 14 17:42:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] MSS in Sarasvati Bhavan Library In-Reply-To: <52F242D8.2050805@pbhome.se> Message-ID: <967B8B1729D3284EAD6142D165B602EA295F1AC9@UFEXCH-MBXN03.ad.ufl.edu> Dear Martin and All, I would gladly sign such a petition: I've also found SBL very difficult to work with directly, and I eventually gave up trying. But to clarify one point in Martin's original query: while you do need written permission from SBL (as with any other library) to procure copies of their digitized/microfilmed manuscripts, you do not need their permission to read and review them onsite at IGNCA in Delhi. This is of course helpful in determining which MSS copies - and at which librarie - are worth mounting a chase for. All best, Travis -- Travis L. Smith Assistant Professor Department of Religion University of Florida ________________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Martin Gansten [martin.gansten at pbhome.se] Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 8:55 AM To: Dominik Wujastyk Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] MSS in Sarasvati Bhavan Library Perhaps obviously, I'd be all for such an initiative... Martin Dominik Wujastyk skrev 2014-02-04 17:05: > Nowadays, online tools make it possible to compile an international > petition. See, e.g., change.org , etc. What do we > think as a community about raising a petition to the minister of culture > (see their National Mission on Libraries ) > about the inaccessibility of MSS at the SBL and the damage done thereby > to national and international scholarship on the history of Indian culture? > > Best, > Dominik _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info From viehbeck at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de Thu Feb 6 12:16:02 2014 From: viehbeck at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Viehbeck, Markus) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 14 13:16:02 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Summer School Colloquial Tibetan (Aug. 04-27) Message-ID: Dear colleagues, (with apologies for cross-posting) the Chair of Buddhist Studies (Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner), Cluster of Excellence "Asia & Europe in a Global Context, Heidelberg University, is pleased to announce the following opportunity for language training: Summer School Colloquial Tibetan With Jonathan Samuels (Sherab Gyatso) & Lobsang Chodak August 04-27, 2014 All-day intensive course, introducing students to the Central Tibetan dialect Textbook: Colloquial Tibetan (by Jonathan Samuels, Routledge Colloquial Series) Course fee: 450 EUR Accommodation (on request): 250 EUR Application deadline: May 15, 2014 For further information and to download application forms, please visit: tibetan-summerschool.uni-hd.de Please spread the word among your students, also by using the attached poster. With kind regards, Markus Viehbeck Dr. Markus Viehbeck Assistant Professor | Buddhist Studies Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context" Heidelberg University Karl Jaspers Centre Vossstrasse 2, Building 4400 D-69115 Heidelberg viehbeck at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: TibetanSummerSchool_Poster.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1959706 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adheesh1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 16:21:42 2014 From: adheesh1 at gmail.com (Adheesh Sathaye) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 14 11:21:42 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Sanskrit Teaching post available - Closing Date: 21/02/14 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Please see the job posting below, forwarded on behalf of the School (please visit the website for further details and procedures for applying). Best wishes, Adheesh ---- Adheesh Sathaye Department of Asian Studies University of British Columbia Begin forwarded message: > > http://www.tes.co.uk/job/teacher-of-sanskrit-classics-196731/ > > > > St James Senior Boys? School > > Ashford, Surrey > > Independent Boys? School, ISA, IBSC, Society of Heads > > 360 pupils, Day and Boarding > > > > Teacher of Sanskrit/Classics required for September 2014. > > > > We are seeking a full time Sanskrit/Classics teacher to commence in September 2014. > > The successful candidate will introduce Sanskrit to Year 7 boys, teaching through the school to IGCSE and A-level. Some Classics teaching (Years 7-9) may be involved. > > Sanskrit offers pupils a superb grammatical training and inspirational literature. It resonates strongly with our philosophically inspired approach which also includes meditation. > > We would be willing to consider sponsoring an appropriate candidate through a GTP, and assisting with immigration issues for a non-British passport holder. > > Salary according to experience. > > St James Senior Boys? School is committed to safeguarding and promoting the welfare of children and young people. Applicants must be willing to undergo child protection screening appropriate to the post, including checks with past employers and the DBS. > > Further details and an application form may be obtained from http://www.hirewire.co.uk/job/48118 > > Closing Date: 21/02/2014 > > Charity no. 270156 > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it Thu Feb 6 18:27:04 2014 From: alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it (Alessandro Battistini) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 14 19:27:04 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= Message-ID: Dear Members, I am preparing an edition of ?nandavardhana's Dev??ataka, with the commentary by Kayya?a (978 d.C.). The latter states in the pu?pik? that his teacher was some ek?yanasya acyutatulyam?rter ?c?ryan?r?ya?agartanamna?. Has anyone ever heard of him or has any hint about names ending in -garta? Best wishes, Alessandro Battistini PhD candidate at Universit? di Roma La Sapienza -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern at verizon.net Thu Feb 6 22:28:17 2014 From: emstern at verizon.net (Elliot M. Stern) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 14 17:28:17 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1436BE4A-6EA2-48C3-9B39-5702EDEB85BB@verizon.net> Is it possible to read the name as narayanagarbha? A Google search will give you references for this scholar. Sent from my iPhone: 267-240-8418 Elliot > On Feb 6, 2014, at 13:27, Alessandro Battistini wrote: > > Dear Members, > I am preparing an edition of ?nandavardhana's Dev??ataka, with the commentary by Kayya?a (978 d.C.). The latter states in the pu?pik? that his teacher was some ek?yanasya acyutatulyam?rter ?c?ryan?r?ya?agartanamna?. Has anyone ever heard of him or has any hint about names ending in -garta? > > Best wishes, > > Alessandro Battistini > PhD candidate at Universit? di Roma La Sapienza > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info From LubinT at wlu.edu Fri Feb 7 00:23:28 2014 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 14 00:23:28 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I second this suggestion, especially since some scripts (e.g., Nandinagari) have an inverted /bha/ that is easily confused with /ta/. Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 From: "Elliot M. Stern" > Date: Thursday, February 6, 2014 5:28 PM To: Alessandro Battistini > Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits Is it possible to read the name as narayanagarbha? A Google search will give you references for this scholar. Sent from my iPhone: 267-240-8418 Elliot On Feb 6, 2014, at 13:27, Alessandro Battistini > wrote: Dear Members, I am preparing an edition of ?nandavardhana's Dev??ataka, with the commentary by Kayya?a (978 d.C.). The latter states in the pu?pik? that his teacher was some ek?yanasya acyutatulyam?rter ?c?ryan?r?ya?agartanamna?. Has anyone ever heard of him or has any hint about names ending in -garta? Best wishes, Alessandro Battistini PhD candidate at Universit? di Roma La Sapienza _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Fri Feb 7 06:12:41 2014 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 14 22:12:41 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <04C17001-6E86-4DC4-A09A-8EC8688F8E4F@mail.ubc.ca> garta is probably a corruption of garga, indicating the family's affiliation with the Garga gotra. "Garge" is still found as a family name in India. The table showing the development of the Nagari and Sharada scripts that is given as plate LXXXII or Lipi-patra 82 in Ojha's pracina bharatiya lipimala indicates that at one time in some (probably western) region of India both ga and ta were written like English inverted "V". A miswriting of ga as ta could have occurred at that time. ( (I am not certain about the title and the author of the Hindi book to which I have referred here on the basis of my memory; my specification of the table number is based only on the partial photocopy I have at hand; the copy does not carry any author name or book title.) Since Kayya.ta was a Kashmiri author, manuscripts of his commentary are very likely to have been written in Kashmir or in the area to the south of Kashmir on the western side of india. As the pu.spika of the commentary is written in verse, the author could have used garga for the sake of the meter when he in fact had the gotra epithet gaargya in mind. Therefore, if my emendation is accepted, both naaraaya.na-garga and naaraaya.na-gaargya should be used to gather more information about the author. a.a. On 2014-02-06, at 10:27 AM, Alessandro Battistini wrote: > I am preparing an edition of ?nandavardhana's Dev??ataka, with the commentary by Kayya?a (978 d.C.). The latter states in the pu?pik? that his teacher was some ek?yanasya acyutatulyam?rter ?c?ryan?r?ya?agartanamna?. Has anyone ever heard of him or has any hint about names ending in -garta? From slaje at kabelmail.de Fri Feb 7 07:34:58 2014 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 14 08:34:58 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: <1436BE4A-6EA2-48C3-9B39-5702EDEB85BB@verizon.net> Message-ID: The graphemes -rta and -rbha are indeed subject to confusion in the ??rad? script. A good example would be Srikanth Kaul's edition (1966) of ?r?vara's Zayna-Tara?gi?? (2.209), where he made an - actually unnecessary - "emendation" (bh?-ga*rbh*a : bh?-ga*rt*a), despite the uniform reading "bh?-garbha" of all MSS: *ma?j??ik?ntar?n n?tv? ta? pa?aik?v?ta? ?avam *| *pitu? p?datale tatra bh?gart?bhyantare* <#_ftn1> *?k?ipat *|| 209 || ------------------------------ <#_ftnref1> (Kaul's comment on p?da d:) "MSS and CB bh?garbh?? (*mislec. for ??r. rt?*)bhya?" It is suggested to restore bh?garbha- as uniformly transmitted: "He took his body, covered by a single shroud, out of the coffin and laid him down there *in the womb of the earth* at the feet of his father [Zayn]". Greetings, WS ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. 2014-02-06 Elliot M. Stern : > Is it possible to read the name as narayanagarbha? A Google search will > give you references for this scholar. > > Sent from my iPhone: > 267-240-8418 > > Elliot > > > > > On Feb 6, 2014, at 13:27, Alessandro Battistini < > alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it> wrote: > > > > Dear Members, > > I am preparing an edition of ?nandavardhana's Dev??ataka, with the > commentary by Kayya?a (978 d.C.). The latter states in the pu?pik? that his > teacher was some ek?yanasya acyutatulyam?rter ?c?ryan?r?ya?agartanamna?. > Has anyone ever heard of him or has any hint about names ending in -garta? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Alessandro Battistini > > PhD candidate at Universit? di Roma La Sapienza > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > http://listinfo.indology.info > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Fri Feb 7 18:42:08 2014 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 14 19:42:08 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_publication_(Translation_of_Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_IV,_Sthitiprakara=E1=B9=87a)?= Message-ID: <20140207194208.Horde.bWuCUzIoBbvgQzOHWWJApg1@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Dear colleagues, I am happy to announce the release of the following book: Der Weg zur Befreiung. Das Vierte Buch. Das Buch ?ber das Dasein. ?bersetzung von Roland Steiner. (Anonymus Casmiriensis: Mok?op?ya. Historisch-kritische Gesamtausgabe. Herausgegeben unter der Leitung von Walter Slaje. ?bersetzung. Teil 3). [Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur, Mainz. Ver?ffentlichungen der Indologischen Kommission]. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2013. 293 pp. ISBN: 978-3-447-10060-1 http://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/title_1633.ahtml With best regards, Roland Steiner Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Seminar f?r Indologie Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06099 Halle (Saale) Tel.: +49-345-55-23656 Fax.: +49-345-55-27211 URL: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/ E-Mail: roland.steiner at indologie.uni-halle.de -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 2693 URL: From caf57 at cam.ac.uk Sat Feb 8 12:05:16 2014 From: caf57 at cam.ac.uk (C.A. Formigatti) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 14 12:05:16 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Alessandro, As already pointed out by Prof. Slaje and Porf. Lubin, bha and ta (and in Sarada, rta and rbha) are easily confused in some South Asian scripts (to the Nandinagari and Sarada, I would add also almost any Nepalese script, for what is worth in your case). Since, as Prof. Aklujkar correctly points out, the texts you're editing are by Kashmirian authors, most likely they have been transmitted in Sarada script or a forerunner of this script, and such an error (garta for garbha) is easily explained from a graphical point of view. If you want to emend the text, I would choose to emend -garbha (another possibility, though a remote one in my opinion, is that the name might contain a Prakritic form, something not impossible, but far fetched). Please keep us informed of what you find out about this pandit, I'm interested in this type of information. Camillo Formigatti On 2014-02-07 07:35, indology-request at list.indology.info wrote: > Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to > indology at list.indology.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > indology-request at list.indology.info > > You can reach the person managing the list at > indology-owner at list.indology.info > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits (Alessandro > Battistini) > 2. Re: N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits (Elliot M. Stern) > 3. Re: N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits (Lubin, Tim) > 4. Re: N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits (Ashok Aklujkar) > 5. Re: N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits (Walter Slaje) > > Dear Members, > I am preparing an edition of ?nandavardhana's Dev??ataka, with the > commentary by Kayya?a (978 d.C.). The latter states in the > pu?pik? that his teacher was some ek?yanasya acyutatulyam?rter > ?c?ryan?r?ya?agartanamna?. Has anyone ever heard of him or has > any hint about names ending in -garta? > > Best wishes, > > Alessandro Battistini > PhD candidate at Universit? di Roma La Sapienza > List-Post: > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > From: "Elliot M. Stern" > Precedence: list > MIME-Version: 1.0 (1.0) > Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" > To: Alessandro Battistini > References: > > In-Reply-To: > > Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 17:28:17 -0500 > Message-ID: <1436BE4A-6EA2-48C3-9B39-5702EDEB85BB at verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] > =?utf-8?b?TsSBcsSBeWHhuYdhZ2FydGEgYW5kIEtheXlh4bmtYSBL?= > =?utf-8?q?ashmiri_pandits?= > Message: 2 > > Is it possible to read the name as narayanagarbha? A Google search will > give= > you references for this scholar. =20 > > Sent from my iPhone: > 267-240-8418 > > Elliot > > > >> On Feb 6, 2014, at 13:27, Alessandro Battistini >> roma1.it> wrote: >> =20 >> Dear Members, >> I am preparing an edition of =C4=80nandavardhana's >> Dev=C4=AB=C5=9Bataka, w= > ith the commentary by Kayya=E1=B9=ADa (978 d.C.). The latter states in > the p= > u=E1=B9=A3pik=C4=81 that his teacher was some ek=C4=81yanasya > acyutatulyam=C5= > =ABrter =C4=81c=C4=81ryan=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agartanamna=E1=B8=A5. > Has a= > nyone ever heard of him or has any hint about names ending in -garta? >> =20 >> Best wishes, >> =20 >> Alessandro Battistini >> PhD candidate at Universit=C3=A0 di Roma La Sapienza >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > > I second this suggestion, especially since some scripts (e.g., > Nandinagari) have an inverted /bha/ that is easily confused with /ta/. > > > Timothy Lubin > Professor of Religion > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > > http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint [2] > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin [3] > http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 [4] > > From: "Elliot M. Stern" > Date: Thursday, February 6, 2014 5:28 PM > To: Alessandro Battistini > Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri > pandits > > Is it possible to read the name as narayanagarbha? A Google search > will give you references for this scholar. > > Sent from my iPhone: > 267-240-8418 > > Elliot > >> On Feb 6, 2014, at 13:27, Alessandro Battistini >> wrote: >> >> Dear Members, >> I am preparing an edition of ?nandavardhana's Dev??ataka, with >> the commentary by Kayya?a (978 d.C.). The latter states in the >> pu?pik? that his teacher was some ek?yanasya acyutatulyam?rter >> ?c?ryan?r?ya?agartanamna?. Has anyone ever heard of him or >> has any hint about names ending in -garta? >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Alessandro Battistini >> PhD candidate at Universit? di Roma La Sapienza >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info [1] > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info [1] > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://listinfo.indology.info > [2] http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint > [3] http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > [4] http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 > > List-Post: > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > From: Ashok Aklujkar > Precedence: list > MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) > Cc: indology at list.indology.info > To: Alessandro Battistini > References: > > In-Reply-To: > > Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 22:12:41 -0800 > Message-ID: <04C17001-6E86-4DC4-A09A-8EC8688F8E4F at mail.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] > =?utf-8?b?TsSBcsSBeWHhuYdhZ2FydGEgYW5kIEtheXlh4bmtYSBL?= > =?utf-8?q?ashmiri_pandits?= > Message: 4 > > garta is probably a corruption of garga, indicating the family's = > affiliation with the Garga gotra. "Garge" is still found as a family = > name in India.=20 > > The table showing the development of the Nagari and Sharada scripts > that = > is given as plate LXXXII or Lipi-patra 82 in Ojha's pracina bharatiya = > lipimala indicates that at one time in some (probably western) region > of = > India both ga and ta were written like English inverted "V". A = > miswriting of ga as ta could have occurred at that time. ( (I am not = > certain about the title and the author of the Hindi book to which I > have = > referred here on the basis of my memory; my specification of the table > = > number is based only on the partial photocopy I have at hand; the copy > = > does not carry any author name or book title.) > > Since Kayya.ta was a Kashmiri author, manuscripts of his commentary are > = > very likely to have been written in Kashmir or in the area to the south > = > of Kashmir on the western side of india.=20 > > As the pu.spika of the commentary is written in verse, the author could > = > have used garga for the sake of the meter when he in fact had the gotra > = > epithet gaargya in mind. Therefore, if my emendation is accepted, both > = > naaraaya.na-garga and naaraaya.na-gaargya should be used to gather more > = > information about the author. > > a.a. > > > > On 2014-02-06, at 10:27 AM, Alessandro Battistini wrote: >> I am preparing an edition of =C4=80nandavardhana's >> Dev=C4=AB=C5=9Bataka,= > with the commentary by Kayya=E1=B9=ADa (978 d.C.). The latter states > in = > the pu=E1=B9=A3pik=C4=81 that his teacher was some ek=C4=81yanasya = > acyutatulyam=C5=ABrter > =C4=81c=C4=81ryan=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agartanamn= > a=E1=B8=A5. Has anyone ever heard of him or has any hint about names = > ending in -garta? > > > > The graphemes -rta and -rbha are indeed subject to confusion in the > ??rad? script. > > A good example would be Srikanth Kaul's edition (1966) of ?r?vara's > Zayna-Tara?gi?? (2.209), where he made an - actually unnecessary > - "emendation" (bh?-gaRBHa : bh?-gaRTa), despite the uniform reading > "bh?-garbha" of all MSS: > > _ma?j??ik?ntar?n n?tv? ta? pa?aik?v?ta? ?avam _| > > _pitu? p?datale tatra bh?gart?bhyantare_ _?k?ipat _|| 209 || > > ------------------------- > (Kaul's comment on p?da d:) "MSS and CB bh?garbh?? (mislec. for > ??r. rt?)bhya?" > > It is suggested to restore bh?garbha- as uniformly transmitted: > "He took his body, covered by a single shroud, out of the coffin and > laid him down there in the womb of the earth at the feet of his father > [Zayn]". > > Greetings, > > WS > > ----------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar > Deutschland > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > > 2014-02-06 Elliot M. Stern : > >> Is it possible to read the name as narayanagarbha? A Google search >> will give you references for this scholar. >> >> Sent from my iPhone: >> 267-240-8418 >> >> Elliot >> >>> On Feb 6, 2014, at 13:27, Alessandro Battistini >> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Members, >>> I am preparing an edition of ?nandavardhana's Dev??ataka, with >> the commentary by Kayya?a (978 d.C.). The latter states in the >> pu?pik? that his teacher was some ek?yanasya acyutatulyam?rter >> ?c?ryan?r?ya?agartanamna?. Has anyone ever heard of him or >> has any hint about names ending in -garta? >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Alessandro Battistini >>> PhD candidate at Universit? di Roma La Sapienza >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info [1] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info [1] > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://listinfo.indology.info > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info From alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it Sat Feb 8 20:10:27 2014 From: alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it (Alessandro Battistini) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 14 21:10:27 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All, thanks for your precious contribution. All the MSS in my possess (both ??rad? from Srinagar and n?gar? from Pune) read -garta unquestionably indeed. Still, the emendation -garbha is very appealing: besides palaeographical reasons, the very existence of an ek?yana named N?r?ya?agarbha seems an interesting track to follow. Moreover, the date of the Jay?khya MS, though not diriment at all, is at least not in discrepancy with a possible identification. In the next month I will examine two more MSS of the Dev??ataka: this could help in solving the problem. I hope I'll be able, sooner or later, to examine the work of Candradatta, and maybe draw some interesting conclusion. Of course, there's still the possibility of many (?) N?r?ya?agarbhas, or of a -garbha and a -garga (granted that -garta is wrong). I add, for the sake of completeness, that this Kayya?a was NOT the grammarian author of the Bh??yaprad?pa, but the son of Candr?ditya and grandson of Vallabhadeva (the commentator of Raghuva??a, ?i?up?lavadha etc.). Thanks. Best wishes, Alessandro Battistini PhD candidate at Universit? di Roma La Sapienza 2014-02-07 8:34 GMT+01:00 Walter Slaje : > The graphemes -rta and -rbha are indeed subject to confusion in the ??rad? > script. > A good example would be Srikanth Kaul's edition (1966) of ?r?vara's > Zayna-Tara?gi?? (2.209), where he made an - actually unnecessary - > "emendation" (bh?-ga*rbh*a : bh?-ga*rt*a), despite the uniform reading > "bh?-garbha" of all MSS: > > *ma?j??ik?ntar?n n?tv? ta? pa?aik?v?ta? ?avam *| > > *pitu? p?datale tatra bh?gart?bhyantare* <#1440b455f5f565ac__ftn1> *?k?ipat > *|| 209 || > ------------------------------ > <#1440b455f5f565ac__ftnref1> (Kaul's comment on p?da d:) "MSS and CB > bh?garbh?? (*mislec. for ??r. rt?*)bhya?" > > It is suggested to restore bh?garbha- as uniformly transmitted: > "He took his body, covered by a single shroud, out of the coffin and laid > him down there *in the womb of the earth* at the feet of his father [Zayn] > ". > > Greetings, > WS > > ----------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar > Deutschland > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > > > 2014-02-06 Elliot M. Stern : > >> Is it possible to read the name as narayanagarbha? A Google search will >> give you references for this scholar. >> >> Sent from my iPhone: >> 267-240-8418 >> >> Elliot >> >> >> >> > On Feb 6, 2014, at 13:27, Alessandro Battistini < >> alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it> wrote: >> > >> > Dear Members, >> > I am preparing an edition of ?nandavardhana's Dev??ataka, with the >> commentary by Kayya?a (978 d.C.). The latter states in the pu?pik? that his >> teacher was some ek?yanasya acyutatulyam?rter ?c?ryan?r?ya?agartanamna?. >> Has anyone ever heard of him or has any hint about names ending in -garta? >> > >> > Best wishes, >> > >> > Alessandro Battistini >> > PhD candidate at Universit? di Roma La Sapienza >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> > http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 23:29:46 2014 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 14 15:29:46 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8667F95F-3B4B-48BA-881E-7621919951E4@mail.ubc.ca> I have a few questions to ask: Is "garbha" found after a male name in a compound that could serve as someone's personal name or epithet? (The late grammarian Naage;sa speaks of himself as "satii-garbhaja", but in that compound "satii" is his mother's name.) Dr. Stern observes: "A Google search will give you references for this scholar [= Naaraayana-garbha]." I made a Google search in all ways I could think of, but did not hit upon anything resembling "Naaraayana-garbha". Either Dr. Stern was expressing a hope or I need to get a list of the references he found. (The reference in the NCC is based on the published edition. It does not add to what we know.) I had checked Prof. Slaje's excellent booklet that introduces the Sharada script for the benefit of those who do not know that script, but I did not find anything in it that would suggest that "rbha" and "rta"" could be so similar as to be mistaken for each other. I would be grateful for a specific reference to discussions of the Sharada script that suggest such a possibility. Alternatively, a presentation of what the shapes of rbha" and "rta"" are according to Prof. Slaje will be useful. (The details of the book to which I referred in my last post for a one-time confusability of "rta" and "rga" are: OJHA, Gaurishankar Hirachand. The palaeography of India = Bhaaratiiya praaciina lipimaalaa. Delhi : Munshi Ram Manohar Lal, 1959. Third edition. New Delhi 1971.) It certainly deserves admiration that Prof. Slaje has recollected an occurrence that could serve as an exact parallel to what we find in the mss of Naaraaya.na's commentary. However, Srikanth Kaul' himself does not specify that he has emended the text the way he has because "rbha" could be a miscopying of "rta". Therefore, we are free to think that he took the editorial action he did only for a semantic reason. At the most we can infer that he did not hesitate to emend or did not feel the need to justify his action because he was aware of the confusability of "rbha" as "rta" and "rta" as "rbha". What kind of semantic reason? In the passage concerned, ;Sriivara describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body brought in a coffin and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a space that exists in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal person (note "ak.sipat," note absence of any reference to preparation of the burial ground etc.). In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a 'ditch' or 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would connote greater depth). (I could not find any occurrences of "bhuu-garbha" in Classical Skt with our standard reference tools. Apte's dictionary records the word only as an epithet of Vi.s..nu. In many modern Indian languages "bhuu-garbha-;saastra" is used for 'geology'.) Whether we go along with Kaul or view his emendation as unnecessary or as an attempt to improve ;Sriivara's original, does it not seem that the evidence given for favoring the change of "garta" to "garbha" in the pu.spikaa of Naaraaya.na's commentary is not as strong as it may initially seem? I will conclude with a clarification. I take Kayya.ta to be a Kashmirian, but Naaraaya.na (= Naaraaya.na-garga, less probably Naaraaya.na-garbha) may be from Kashmir or any part of western India to the south of Kashmir. Also, he may not be close to Kayya.ta in time. He could belong to a time when the gotra names began to be used after personal names to identify oneself. a.a. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Sun Feb 9 01:23:51 2014 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Sun, 09 Feb 14 01:23:51 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: <8667F95F-3B4B-48BA-881E-7621919951E4@mail.ubc.ca> Message-ID: -garbha as a name suffix seems common enough among authors of Tantric texts, or from Tantra-influenced milieux. A quick search through Genesis and Development of Tantrism, ed. Shingo Einoo, (Kyoto, 2009) yields many examples, including a N?r?ya?agarbha. For the graphic similarities cited, these samples are from the Ojha publication Ashok cites: [cid:E5D75D30-4724-4EF0-B4F4-07C7FDD12CC5] These are 16th c. Sharada examples from Plate XXXI of the same (the second, /bha/, is not necessarily closed) [cid:2C26A824-B819-47D9-A424-6C1E5450DF23] [cid:499F7A3A-9580-404D-B760-829372B128D0] Compare also these, from p. 62 (on ??rad?) of Hemar?j ??kya's _Nep?la Lipi-Prak??a_: [cid:03186FC7-9BFF-44A8-8EF2-446920C987F7] Certainly close enough to me mistaken given natural variability. Also, consider the ta and bha rows in the attached chart, especially for the scripts listed as Vartula, Nepali, and Nandinagari. Tim Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 From: "ashok.aklujkar" > Date: Saturday, February 8, 2014 6:29 PM To: Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits I have a few questions to ask: Is "garbha" found after a male name in a compound that could serve as someone's personal name or epithet? (The late grammarian Naage;sa speaks of himself as "satii-garbhaja", but in that compound "satii" is his mother's name.) Dr. Stern observes: "A Google search will give you references for this scholar [= Naaraayana-garbha]." I made a Google search in all ways I could think of, but did not hit upon anything resembling "Naaraayana-garbha". Either Dr. Stern was expressing a hope or I need to get a list of the references he found. (The reference in the NCC is based on the published edition. It does not add to what we know.) I had checked Prof. Slaje's excellent booklet that introduces the Sharada script for the benefit of those who do not know that script, but I did not find anything in it that would suggest that "rbha" and "rta"" could be so similar as to be mistaken for each other. I would be grateful for a specific reference to discussions of the Sharada script that suggest such a possibility. Alternatively, a presentation of what the shapes of rbha" and "rta"" are according to Prof. Slaje will be useful. (The details of the book to which I referred in my last post for a one-time confusability of "rta" and "rga" are: OJHA, Gaurishankar Hirachand. The palaeography of India = Bhaaratiiya praaciina lipimaalaa. Delhi : Munshi Ram Manohar Lal, 1959. Third edition. New Delhi 1971.) It certainly deserves admiration that Prof. Slaje has recollected an occurrence that could serve as an exact parallel to what we find in the mss of Naaraaya.na's commentary. However, Srikanth Kaul' himself does not specify that he has emended the text the way he has because "rbha" could be a miscopying of "rta". Therefore, we are free to think that he took the editorial action he did only for a semantic reason. At the most we can infer that he did not hesitate to emend or did not feel the need to justify his action because he was aware of the confusability of "rbha" as "rta" and "rta" as "rbha". What kind of semantic reason? In the passage concerned, ;Sriivara describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body brought in a coffin and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a space that exists in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal person (note "ak.sipat," note absence of any reference to preparation of the burial ground etc.). In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a 'ditch' or 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would connote greater depth). (I could not find any occurrences of "bhuu-garbha" in Classical Skt with our standard reference tools. Apte's dictionary records the word only as an epithet of Vi.s..nu. In many modern Indian languages "bhuu-garbha-;saastra" is used for 'geology'.) Whether we go along with Kaul or view his emendation as unnecessary or as an attempt to improve ;Sriivara's original, does it not seem that the evidence given for favoring the change of "garta" to "garbha" in the pu.spikaa of Naaraaya.na's commentary is not as strong as it may initially seem? I will conclude with a clarification. I take Kayya.ta to be a Kashmirian, but Naaraaya.na (= Naaraaya.na-garga, less probably Naaraaya.na-garbha) may be from Kashmir or any part of western India to the south of Kashmir. Also, he may not be close to Kayya.ta in time. He could belong to a time when the gotra names began to be used after personal names to identify oneself. a.a. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PagesfromVartulaScript.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 433658 bytes Desc: not available URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Sun Feb 9 01:29:43 2014 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Sun, 09 Feb 14 01:29:43 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Since my in-text images did not come through (at least in what I received), I attach them in the same order. Tim From: , Timothy Lubin > Date: Saturday, February 8, 2014 8:23 PM To: "ashok.aklujkar" >, Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits -garbha as a name suffix seems common enough among authors of Tantric texts, or from Tantra-influenced milieux. A quick search through Genesis and Development of Tantrism, ed. Shingo Einoo, (Kyoto, 2009) yields many examples, including a N?r?ya?agarbha. For the graphic similarities cited, these samples are from the Ojha publication Ashok cites: [cid:E5D75D30-4724-4EF0-B4F4-07C7FDD12CC5] These are 16th c. Sharada examples from Plate XXXI of the same (the second, /bha/, is not necessarily closed) [cid:2C26A824-B819-47D9-A424-6C1E5450DF23] [cid:499F7A3A-9580-404D-B760-829372B128D0] Compare also these, from p. 62 (on ??rad?) of Hemar?j ??kya's _Nep?la Lipi-Prak??a_: [cid:03186FC7-9BFF-44A8-8EF2-446920C987F7] Certainly close enough to me mistaken given natural variability. Also, consider the ta and bha rows in the attached chart, especially for the scripts listed as Vartula, Nepali, and Nandinagari. Tim Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 From: "ashok.aklujkar" > Date: Saturday, February 8, 2014 6:29 PM To: Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits I have a few questions to ask: Is "garbha" found after a male name in a compound that could serve as someone's personal name or epithet? (The late grammarian Naage;sa speaks of himself as "satii-garbhaja", but in that compound "satii" is his mother's name.) Dr. Stern observes: "A Google search will give you references for this scholar [= Naaraayana-garbha]." I made a Google search in all ways I could think of, but did not hit upon anything resembling "Naaraayana-garbha". Either Dr. Stern was expressing a hope or I need to get a list of the references he found. (The reference in the NCC is based on the published edition. It does not add to what we know.) I had checked Prof. Slaje's excellent booklet that introduces the Sharada script for the benefit of those who do not know that script, but I did not find anything in it that would suggest that "rbha" and "rta"" could be so similar as to be mistaken for each other. I would be grateful for a specific reference to discussions of the Sharada script that suggest such a possibility. Alternatively, a presentation of what the shapes of rbha" and "rta"" are according to Prof. Slaje will be useful. (The details of the book to which I referred in my last post for a one-time confusability of "rta" and "rga" are: OJHA, Gaurishankar Hirachand. The palaeography of India = Bhaaratiiya praaciina lipimaalaa. Delhi : Munshi Ram Manohar Lal, 1959. Third edition. New Delhi 1971.) It certainly deserves admiration that Prof. Slaje has recollected an occurrence that could serve as an exact parallel to what we find in the mss of Naaraaya.na's commentary. However, Srikanth Kaul' himself does not specify that he has emended the text the way he has because "rbha" could be a miscopying of "rta". Therefore, we are free to think that he took the editorial action he did only for a semantic reason. At the most we can infer that he did not hesitate to emend or did not feel the need to justify his action because he was aware of the confusability of "rbha" as "rta" and "rta" as "rbha". What kind of semantic reason? In the passage concerned, ;Sriivara describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body brought in a coffin and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a space that exists in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal person (note "ak.sipat," note absence of any reference to preparation of the burial ground etc.). In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a 'ditch' or 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would connote greater depth). (I could not find any occurrences of "bhuu-garbha" in Classical Skt with our standard reference tools. Apte's dictionary records the word only as an epithet of Vi.s..nu. In many modern Indian languages "bhuu-garbha-;saastra" is used for 'geology'.) Whether we go along with Kaul or view his emendation as unnecessary or as an attempt to improve ;Sriivara's original, does it not seem that the evidence given for favoring the change of "garta" to "garbha" in the pu.spikaa of Naaraaya.na's commentary is not as strong as it may initially seem? I will conclude with a clarification. I take Kayya.ta to be a Kashmirian, but Naaraaya.na (= Naaraaya.na-garga, less probably Naaraaya.na-garbha) may be from Kashmir or any part of western India to the south of Kashmir. Also, he may not be close to Kayya.ta in time. He could belong to a time when the gotra names began to be used after personal names to identify oneself. a.a. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Sun Feb 9 01:46:49 2014 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Sun, 09 Feb 14 01:46:49 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, I forgot to add, in response to Ashok's request for evidence of the similarity of ??rad? conjuncts /rta/ and /rbha/. I attach a page taken from a Pingree course pack. The examples are snipped from a copy of a ms. identified as PSK(19) [ff. 242a ff.], date 1419-1519 (?). See attachment. Tim From: , Timothy Lubin > Date: Saturday, February 8, 2014 8:29 PM To: Timothy Lubin >, "ashok.aklujkar" >, Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits Since my in-text images did not come through (at least in what I received), I attach them in the same order. Tim From: , Timothy Lubin > Date: Saturday, February 8, 2014 8:23 PM To: "ashok.aklujkar" >, Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits -garbha as a name suffix seems common enough among authors of Tantric texts, or from Tantra-influenced milieux. A quick search through Genesis and Development of Tantrism, ed. Shingo Einoo, (Kyoto, 2009) yields many examples, including a N?r?ya?agarbha. For the graphic similarities cited, these samples are from the Ojha publication Ashok cites: [cid:E5D75D30-4724-4EF0-B4F4-07C7FDD12CC5] These are 16th c. Sharada examples from Plate XXXI of the same (the second, /bha/, is not necessarily closed) [cid:2C26A824-B819-47D9-A424-6C1E5450DF23] [cid:499F7A3A-9580-404D-B760-829372B128D0] Compare also these, from p. 62 (on ??rad?) of Hemar?j ??kya's _Nep?la Lipi-Prak??a_: [cid:03186FC7-9BFF-44A8-8EF2-446920C987F7] Certainly close enough to me mistaken given natural variability. Also, consider the ta and bha rows in the attached chart, especially for the scripts listed as Vartula, Nepali, and Nandinagari. Tim Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 From: "ashok.aklujkar" > Date: Saturday, February 8, 2014 6:29 PM To: Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits I have a few questions to ask: Is "garbha" found after a male name in a compound that could serve as someone's personal name or epithet? (The late grammarian Naage;sa speaks of himself as "satii-garbhaja", but in that compound "satii" is his mother's name.) Dr. Stern observes: "A Google search will give you references for this scholar [= Naaraayana-garbha]." I made a Google search in all ways I could think of, but did not hit upon anything resembling "Naaraayana-garbha". Either Dr. Stern was expressing a hope or I need to get a list of the references he found. (The reference in the NCC is based on the published edition. It does not add to what we know.) I had checked Prof. Slaje's excellent booklet that introduces the Sharada script for the benefit of those who do not know that script, but I did not find anything in it that would suggest that "rbha" and "rta"" could be so similar as to be mistaken for each other. I would be grateful for a specific reference to discussions of the Sharada script that suggest such a possibility. Alternatively, a presentation of what the shapes of rbha" and "rta"" are according to Prof. Slaje will be useful. (The details of the book to which I referred in my last post for a one-time confusability of "rta" and "rga" are: OJHA, Gaurishankar Hirachand. The palaeography of India = Bhaaratiiya praaciina lipimaalaa. Delhi : Munshi Ram Manohar Lal, 1959. Third edition. New Delhi 1971.) It certainly deserves admiration that Prof. Slaje has recollected an occurrence that could serve as an exact parallel to what we find in the mss of Naaraaya.na's commentary. However, Srikanth Kaul' himself does not specify that he has emended the text the way he has because "rbha" could be a miscopying of "rta". Therefore, we are free to think that he took the editorial action he did only for a semantic reason. At the most we can infer that he did not hesitate to emend or did not feel the need to justify his action because he was aware of the confusability of "rbha" as "rta" and "rta" as "rbha". What kind of semantic reason? In the passage concerned, ;Sriivara describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body brought in a coffin and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a space that exists in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal person (note "ak.sipat," note absence of any reference to preparation of the burial ground etc.). In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a 'ditch' or 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would connote greater depth). (I could not find any occurrences of "bhuu-garbha" in Classical Skt with our standard reference tools. Apte's dictionary records the word only as an epithet of Vi.s..nu. In many modern Indian languages "bhuu-garbha-;saastra" is used for 'geology'.) Whether we go along with Kaul or view his emendation as unnecessary or as an attempt to improve ;Sriivara's original, does it not seem that the evidence given for favoring the change of "garta" to "garbha" in the pu.spikaa of Naaraaya.na's commentary is not as strong as it may initially seem? I will conclude with a clarification. I take Kayya.ta to be a Kashmirian, but Naaraaya.na (= Naaraaya.na-garga, less probably Naaraaya.na-garbha) may be from Kashmir or any part of western India to the south of Kashmir. Also, he may not be close to Kayya.ta in time. He could belong to a time when the gotra names began to be used after personal names to identify oneself. a.a. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fromPingree-PalaeographyofNagari.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 143655 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Sun Feb 9 03:45:56 2014 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 14 19:45:56 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to Tim Lubin. Yes. "ta" and "bha" are similar enough in some specimens of Sharada to be misread for each other. So, the point made by Prof. Slaje stands. I have checked as many words ending in -garbha in Einoo's book as I could. Yes, they would support the emendation to -garbha. Helpful responses were also received from Tim Cahill and Bindu Bhatt. Thanks to them as well for clearing my doubts. I withdraw the suggestion to emend the text to -garga. Although that emendation would also have been transcriptionally probable at a certain stage, the support for it is not as many-sided as for -garbha. a.a. On 2014-02-08, at 5:23 PM, Lubin, Tim wrote: > -garbha as a name suffix seems common enough among authors of Tantric texts, or from Tantra-influenced milieux. A quick search through Genesis and Development of Tantrism, ed. Shingo Einoo, (Kyoto, 2009) yields many examples, including a N?r?ya?agarbha. > > For the graphic similarities cited, these samples are from the Ojha publication Ashok cites: > > > These are 16th c. Sharada examples from Plate XXXI of the same (the second, /bha/, is not necessarily closed) > > > Compare also these, from p. 62 (on ??rad?) of Hemar?j ??kya's _Nep?la Lipi-Prak??a_: > > Certainly close enough to me mistaken given natural variability. > > Also, consider the ta and bha rows in the attached chart, especially for the scripts listed as Vartula, Nepali, and Nandinagari. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern at verizon.net Sun Feb 9 03:55:21 2014 From: emstern at verizon.net (Elliot Stern) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 14 22:55:21 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <016AFE21-EC49-4D8E-BCC6-2E7609F20F98@verizon.net> I simply searched: narayanagarbha. There were only a few hits. The earliest reference appears to be: Hariprasad Sastri, Palm-Leaf and Selected Paper Mss. Belonging to the Durbar Library, Nepal (Calcutta, 1905),. He mentions ek?yan?c?ryya n?r?y??agarbha? on page lxxvi and lxxvii of the preface. Alexis Sanderson mentions this same teacher in connection with the same manuscript on page 67 of Shingo Einoo, Genesis and Development of Tantrism (Tokyo, 2009). It turns out that all of the hits refer to the one manuscript in Kathmandu. I?m not sure why Prof. Aklujkar was unable to get the same results in a Google search. I hope this paste from the search is readable: 5 results (0.09 seconds) ???????????? Donors - vasavitemplekothanur vasavitemplekothanur.com/donors.php? 70+ items - DONATION ITEMS REQUIRED FOR THE TEMPLE. S.No ... S.No Description Amount 1 Sree Vasavi Devi Garbha Gudi 3,50,000 4 Sree Lakshmi Narayana Garbha Gudi "Vimana Gopura ... 5,00,000 Full text of "A Catalogue of Palm-Leaf and Selected Paper MSS ... archive.org/stream/.../Shastri_nepalV1-ocr_1905_djvu.txt? The work is attributed to a human author Sadhaka Candra Datta who had received favour from Ekayaua- caryya Narayanagarbha. The work is written in ... Full text of "Genesis and Development of Tantra" - Internet Archive archive.org/stream/.../GenesisDevelopmentOfTantra_djvu.txt? 35v7-36r4, and a lemma in a Nepalese palm-leaf manuscript of 1187/8 of the Jndnalaksmi of Sadhaka Candradatta, pupil of Ekayanacarya Narayanagarbha ... Sanderson, Alexis - Saiva Age - Scribd www.scribd.com/doc/79007015/Sanderson-Alexis-Saiva-Age? Jan 22, 2012 - pupil of Ekayanacarya Narayanagarbha (C): susitam . of Sadhaka Candradatta. These binding cords are the ?rm fetters [of the soul]. Shingo Einoo - Genesis and Development of Tantrism - Scribd www.scribd.com/.../Shingo-Einoo-Genesis-and-Development-of-Tantris...? Jan 22, 2012 - ... ? ? ? ? ? ? ? . of Sadhaka Candradatta, pupil of EkayanacaryaNarayanagarbha (C): susitam . sutram adaya laksalaktakabhavitam ? ? ? ? . Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America telephone: 215-747-6204 mobile: 267-240-8418 emstern at verizon.net > > From: "ashok.aklujkar" > Date: Saturday, February 8, 2014 6:29 PM > To: Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits > > I have a few questions to ask: > > Is "garbha" found after a male name in a compound that could serve as someone's personal name or epithet? > (The late grammarian Naage;sa speaks of himself as "satii-garbhaja", but in that compound "satii" is his mother's name.) > > Dr. Stern observes: "A Google search will give you references for this scholar [= Naaraayana-garbha]." I made a Google search in all ways I could think of, but did not hit upon anything resembling "Naaraayana-garbha". Either Dr. Stern was expressing a hope or I need to get a list of the references he found. > (The reference in the NCC is based on the published edition. It does not add to what we know.) > > I had checked Prof. Slaje's excellent booklet that introduces the Sharada script for the benefit of those who do not know that script, but I did not find anything in it that would suggest that "rbha" and "rta"" could be so similar as to be mistaken for each other. I would be grateful for a specific reference to discussions of the Sharada script that suggest such a possibility. Alternatively, a presentation of what the shapes of rbha" and "rta"" are according to Prof. Slaje will be useful. > > (The details of the book to which I referred in my last post for a one-time confusability of "rta" and "rga" are: OJHA, Gaurishankar Hirachand. The palaeography of India = Bhaaratiiya praaciina lipimaalaa. Delhi : Munshi Ram Manohar Lal, 1959. Third edition. New Delhi 1971.) > > It certainly deserves admiration that Prof. Slaje has recollected an occurrence that could serve as an exact parallel to what we find in the mss of Naaraaya.na's commentary. However, Srikanth Kaul' himself does not specify that he has emended the text the way he has because "rbha" could be a miscopying of "rta". Therefore, we are free to think that he took the editorial action he did only for a semantic reason. At the most we can infer that he did not hesitate to emend or did not feel the need to justify his action because he was aware of the confusability of "rbha" as "rta" and "rta" as "rbha". > > What kind of semantic reason? In the passage concerned, ;Sriivara describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body brought in a coffin and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a space that exists in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal person (note "ak.sipat," note absence of any reference to preparation of the burial ground etc.). In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a 'ditch' or 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would connote greater depth). > > (I could not find any occurrences of "bhuu-garbha" in Classical Skt with our standard reference tools. Apte's dictionary records the word only as an epithet of Vi.s..nu. In many modern Indian languages "bhuu-garbha-;saastra" is used for 'geology'.) > > Whether we go along with Kaul or view his emendation as unnecessary or as an attempt to improve ;Sriivara's original, does it not seem that the evidence given for favoring the change of "garta" to "garbha" in the pu.spikaa of Naaraaya.na's commentary is not as strong as it may initially seem? > > I will conclude with a clarification. I take Kayya.ta to be a Kashmirian, but Naaraaya.na (= Naaraaya.na-garga, less probably Naaraaya.na-garbha) may be from Kashmir or any part of western India to the south of Kashmir. Also, he may not be close to Kayya.ta in time. He could belong to a time when the gotra names began to be used after personal names to identify oneself. > > a.a. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern at verizon.net Sun Feb 9 04:24:52 2014 From: emstern at verizon.net (Elliot Stern) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 14 23:24:52 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6DFC023F-24D0-429C-AF73-1B4DBFF85728@verizon.net> Thank you, Tim, for the details about ??rad? script and -garbha as a final element in personal names that elaborated on my quick and dirty initial response. Elliot Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America telephone: 215-747-6204 mobile: 267-240-8418 emstern at verizon.net On 08 Feb 2014, at 20:46, Lubin, Tim wrote: > Sorry, I forgot to add, in response to Ashok's request for evidence of the similarity of ??rad? conjuncts /rta/ and /rbha/. I attach a page taken from a Pingree course pack. The examples are snipped from a copy of a ms. identified as PSK(19) [ff. 242a ff.], date 1419-1519 (?). > > See attachment. > > Tim > > From: , Timothy Lubin > Date: Saturday, February 8, 2014 8:29 PM > To: Timothy Lubin , "ashok.aklujkar" , Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits > > Since my in-text images did not come through (at least in what I received), I attach them in the same order. > Tim > > From: , Timothy Lubin > Date: Saturday, February 8, 2014 8:23 PM > To: "ashok.aklujkar" , Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits > > -garbha as a name suffix seems common enough among authors of Tantric texts, or from Tantra-influenced milieux. A quick search through Genesis and Development of Tantrism, ed. Shingo Einoo, (Kyoto, 2009) yields many examples, including a N?r?ya?agarbha. > > For the graphic similarities cited, these samples are from the Ojha publication Ashok cites: > > > These are 16th c. Sharada examples from Plate XXXI of the same (the second, /bha/, is not necessarily closed) > > > Compare also these, from p. 62 (on ??rad?) of Hemar?j ??kya's _Nep?la Lipi-Prak??a_: > > Certainly close enough to me mistaken given natural variability. > > Also, consider the ta and bha rows in the attached chart, especially for the scripts listed as Vartula, Nepali, and Nandinagari. > > Tim > > Timothy Lubin > Professor of Religion > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > > http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 > > > > > From: "ashok.aklujkar" > Date: Saturday, February 8, 2014 6:29 PM > To: Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits > > I have a few questions to ask: > > Is "garbha" found after a male name in a compound that could serve as someone's personal name or epithet? > (The late grammarian Naage;sa speaks of himself as "satii-garbhaja", but in that compound "satii" is his mother's name.) > > Dr. Stern observes: "A Google search will give you references for this scholar [= Naaraayana-garbha]." I made a Google search in all ways I could think of, but did not hit upon anything resembling "Naaraayana-garbha". Either Dr. Stern was expressing a hope or I need to get a list of the references he found. > (The reference in the NCC is based on the published edition. It does not add to what we know.) > > I had checked Prof. Slaje's excellent booklet that introduces the Sharada script for the benefit of those who do not know that script, but I did not find anything in it that would suggest that "rbha" and "rta"" could be so similar as to be mistaken for each other. I would be grateful for a specific reference to discussions of the Sharada script that suggest such a possibility. Alternatively, a presentation of what the shapes of rbha" and "rta"" are according to Prof. Slaje will be useful. > > (The details of the book to which I referred in my last post for a one-time confusability of "rta" and "rga" are: OJHA, Gaurishankar Hirachand. The palaeography of India = Bhaaratiiya praaciina lipimaalaa. Delhi : Munshi Ram Manohar Lal, 1959. Third edition. New Delhi 1971.) > > It certainly deserves admiration that Prof. Slaje has recollected an occurrence that could serve as an exact parallel to what we find in the mss of Naaraaya.na's commentary. However, Srikanth Kaul' himself does not specify that he has emended the text the way he has because "rbha" could be a miscopying of "rta". Therefore, we are free to think that he took the editorial action he did only for a semantic reason. At the most we can infer that he did not hesitate to emend or did not feel the need to justify his action because he was aware of the confusability of "rbha" as "rta" and "rta" as "rbha". > > What kind of semantic reason? In the passage concerned, ;Sriivara describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body brought in a coffin and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a space that exists in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal person (note "ak.sipat," note absence of any reference to preparation of the burial ground etc.). In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a 'ditch' or 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would connote greater depth). > > (I could not find any occurrences of "bhuu-garbha" in Classical Skt with our standard reference tools. Apte's dictionary records the word only as an epithet of Vi.s..nu. In many modern Indian languages "bhuu-garbha-;saastra" is used for 'geology'.) > > Whether we go along with Kaul or view his emendation as unnecessary or as an attempt to improve ;Sriivara's original, does it not seem that the evidence given for favoring the change of "garta" to "garbha" in the pu.spikaa of Naaraaya.na's commentary is not as strong as it may initially seem? > > I will conclude with a clarification. I take Kayya.ta to be a Kashmirian, but Naaraaya.na (= Naaraaya.na-garga, less probably Naaraaya.na-garbha) may be from Kashmir or any part of western India to the south of Kashmir. Also, he may not be close to Kayya.ta in time. He could belong to a time when the gotra names began to be used after personal names to identify oneself. > > a.a. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Sun Feb 9 05:05:16 2014 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 14 21:05:16 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: <016AFE21-EC49-4D8E-BCC6-2E7609F20F98@verizon.net> Message-ID: Dear Elliot, Thanks. I can think of only two reasons why I did not get the references you got: (a) I am not as good at carrying these searches as I should be. (2) Some references may be accessible only in the USA. One addition to my last post: All personal names ending in -garbha seem to be pen or post-initiation names and the practice of using them seems to be current only in the Tantra tradition(s). Vajra-garbha, Candra-garbha, Puur.na-cid-garbha, Aananda-garbha, Kalyaa.na-garbha; ;Sakti-garbha, Aakaa;sa-garbha and Vetra-garbha, among possibly others, do not seem like names given by parents in the naming ceremony of a child; they are not similar in formation to the 'natural' names commonly attested in Indian religious traditions in general. Therefore, the search for Naaraaya.na-garbha, too, will, most probably, be based on a name given to a historical person in his later life in a limited circle ashok. On 2014-02-08, at 7:55 PM, Elliot Stern wrote: > I simply searched: narayanagarbha. There were only a few hits. The earliest reference appears to be: Hariprasad Sastri, Palm-Leaf and Selected Paper Mss. Belonging to the Durbar Library, Nepal (Calcutta, 1905),. He mentions ek?yan?c?ryya n?r?y??agarbha? on page lxxvi and lxxvii of the preface. Alexis Sanderson mentions this same teacher in connection with the same manuscript on page 67 of Shingo Einoo, Genesis and Development of Tantrism (Tokyo, 2009). > > It turns out that all of the hits refer to the one manuscript in Kathmandu. I?m not sure why Prof. Aklujkar was unable to get the same results in a Google search. I hope this paste from the search is readable: From slaje at kabelmail.de Sun Feb 9 09:12:13 2014 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Sun, 09 Feb 14 10:12:13 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: <8667F95F-3B4B-48BA-881E-7621919951E4@mail.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Dear Ashok, thank you for your critical remarks concerning my message. Let me briefly address these points. 1) > I would be grateful for a specific reference to discussions of the Sharada script that suggest such a possibility. On page 56 of my booklet (with the original ak?aras reproduced from a ??rad? manuscript) you can check this possibility for yourself, the difference being that a halfcircle below the m?tr? is open to the left (rta) or closed (rbha). This applies of course to actual handwriting only, but not to the abstracted shapes of ??rad? ak?aras, which is why I did not categorize such forms under the heading of "Semi-homographe Ak?aras" (pp. 43 ff), where you therefore might have looked in vain. 2) > Srikanth Kaul' himself does not specify that he has emended the text the way he has because "rbha" could be a miscopying of "rta". I have quoted Kaul's editorial note verbatim, and he writes indeed: " (*mislec[tion] for ??r. rt?*)". Kaul considered rbha a ??rad? mislection for an original -rta and emended his text accordingly. 3) > Sriivara describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body brought in a coffin and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a space that exists in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal person Actually, ?r?vara here solemnly describes a royal funeral in accordance with Muslim rites. This is the context of the stanza quoted by me: ?asan, Sul??n Zayn's grandson and heir to his deceased father, buries his father Sul??n ?aydar ??h (who unfortunately died of excessive alcoholism). Regrettably, vocabulary and modes of expression of the largely ignored post-Kalha?ian R?jatara?gi??s are nowhere recorded in our standard dictionaries. 4) > In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a 'ditch' or 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would connote greater depth). >From the actual context as given above a different picture emerges. The new Sul??n would hardly have dumped his father into a ditch, for he was publicly buried at the royal cemetery in ?r?nagar. ?r?vara was a poet and expressed himself as such a one. That he had indeed a "womb of the earth" in mind when composing his stanza can be seen from a telling parallel, where he depicts Zayn's burial as an eyewitness, at the occasion of which he had been present as well: *yatra supt? ivaikatra bh?nti p?rve mah?bhuja? |* *bhart?prem?? dhara?y eva nihit? h?day?ntare* || Zayna-T. 1.7.227 || "There, [where] *the Earth had taken them inside* for love of her [royal] husbands, the previous Sul??ns appeared to be asleep [together] in the same place." That is the way a cremation-accustomed Hindu poet conceived of the strange impression interments left on his mind, when the earth, who is supposed to have always only one husband (ruler) at a time, takes them all together inside herself (h?day?ntare = bhu-ga*rbh*e), where they now seem to sleep comfortably side by side. I am sorry that I had not clarified the full context in my earlier mail and so unintentionally caused some confusion. I just wanted to be brief in pointing out the theoretical possibility that -rbha might have been misread for -rta, and that an early mislection of that sort may have easily survived in copies made from such an exemplar. Warm wishes, Walter ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. 2014-02-09 0:29 GMT+01:00 Ashok Aklujkar : > I have a few questions to ask: > > Is "garbha" found after a male name in a compound that could serve as > someone's personal name or epithet? > (The late grammarian Naage;sa speaks of himself as "satii-garbhaja", but > in that compound "satii" is his mother's name.) > > Dr. Stern observes: "A Google search will give you references for this > scholar [= Naaraayana-garbha]." I made a Google search in all ways I could > think of, but did not hit upon anything resembling "Naaraayana-garbha". > Either Dr. Stern was expressing a hope or I need to get a list of the > references he found. > (The reference in the NCC is based on the published edition. It does not > add to what we know.) > > I had checked Prof. Slaje's excellent booklet that introduces the Sharada > script for the benefit of those who do not know that script, but I did not > find anything in it that would suggest that "rbha" and "rta"" could be so > similar as to be mistaken for each other. I would be grateful for a > specific reference to discussions of the Sharada script that suggest such a > possibility. Alternatively, a presentation of what the shapes of rbha" and > "rta"" are according to Prof. Slaje will be useful. > > (The details of the book to which I referred in my last post for a > one-time confusability of "rta" and "rga" are: OJHA, Gaurishankar > Hirachand. The palaeography of India = Bhaaratiiya praaciina > lipimaalaa. Delhi : Munshi Ram Manohar Lal, 1959. Third edition. New Delhi > 1971.) > > It certainly deserves admiration that Prof. Slaje has recollected an > occurrence that could serve as an exact parallel to what we find in the mss > of Naaraaya.na's commentary. However, Srikanth Kaul' himself does not > specify that he has emended the text the way he has because "rbha" could be > a miscopying of "rta". Therefore, we are free to think that he took the > editorial action he did only for a semantic reason. At the most we can > infer that he did not hesitate to emend or did not feel the need to justify > his action because he was aware of the confusability of "rbha" as "rta" and > "rta" as "rbha". > > What kind of semantic reason? In the passage concerned, ;Sriivara > describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body brought in a coffin > and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a space that exists > in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal person (note > "ak.sipat," note absence of any reference to preparation of the burial > ground etc.). In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a > 'ditch' or 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would > connote greater depth). > > (I could not find any occurrences of "bhuu-garbha" in Classical Skt with > our standard reference tools. Apte's dictionary records the word only as an > epithet of Vi.s..nu. In many modern Indian languages "bhuu-garbha-;saastra" > is used for 'geology'.) > > Whether we go along with Kaul or view his emendation as unnecessary or as > an attempt to improve ;Sriivara's original, does it not seem that the > evidence given for favoring the change of "garta" to "garbha" in the > pu.spikaa of Naaraaya.na's commentary is not as strong as it may initially > seem? > > I will conclude with a clarification. I take Kayya.ta to be a Kashmirian, > but Naaraaya.na (= Naaraaya.na-garga, less probably Naaraaya.na-garbha) > may be from Kashmir or any part of western India to the south of Kashmir. > Also, he may not be close to Kayya.ta in time. He could belong to a time > when the gotra names began to be used after personal names to identify > oneself. > > a.a. > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Sun Feb 9 09:34:52 2014 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Sun, 09 Feb 14 10:34:52 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits_[Correction]?= Message-ID: Please remove the erroneous space in *dhara?y eva *and translate accordingly. Drawn up in Sunday morning haste, thanks, W. 2014-02-09 10:12 GMT+01:00 Walter Slaje : > Dear Ashok, > > thank you for your critical remarks concerning my message. Let me briefly > address these points. > > 1) > I would be grateful for a specific reference to discussions of the > Sharada script that suggest such a possibility. > > On page 56 of my booklet (with the original ak?aras reproduced from a > ??rad? manuscript) you can check this possibility for yourself, the > difference being that a halfcircle below the m?tr? is open to the left > (rta) or closed (rbha). This applies of course to actual handwriting only, > but not to the abstracted shapes of ??rad? ak?aras, which is why I did not > categorize such forms under the heading of "Semi-homographe Ak?aras" (pp. > 43 ff), where you therefore might have looked in vain. > > 2) > Srikanth Kaul' himself does not specify that he has emended the text > the way he has because "rbha" could be a miscopying of "rta". > > I have quoted Kaul's editorial note verbatim, and he writes indeed: > " (*mislec[tion] for ??r. rt?*)". Kaul considered rbha a ??rad? > mislection for an original -rta and emended his text accordingly. > > 3) > Sriivara describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body > brought in a coffin and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a > space that exists in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal > person > > Actually, ?r?vara here solemnly describes a royal funeral in accordance > with Muslim rites. This is the context of the stanza quoted by me: > > ?asan, Sul??n Zayn's grandson and heir to his deceased father, buries his > father Sul??n ?aydar ??h (who unfortunately died of excessive alcoholism). > > Regrettably, vocabulary and modes of expression of the largely ignored > post-Kalha?ian R?jatara?gi??s are nowhere recorded in our standard > dictionaries. > > > 4) > In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a 'ditch' or > 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would connote > greater depth). > > > From the actual context as given above a different picture emerges. The > new Sul??n would hardly have dumped his father into a ditch, for he was publicly > buried at the royal cemetery in ?r?nagar. > > ?r?vara was a poet and expressed himself as such a one. That he had indeed > a "womb of the earth" in mind when composing his stanza can be seen from a > telling parallel, where he depicts Zayn's burial as an eyewitness, at the > occasion of which he had been present as well: > > > *yatra supt? ivaikatra bh?nti p?rve mah?bhuja? |* > > *bhart?prem?? dhara?y eva nihit? h?day?ntare* || Zayna-T. 1.7.227 || > "There, [where] *the Earth had taken them inside* for love of her [royal] > husbands, the previous Sul??ns appeared to be asleep [together] in the same > place." > > > That is the way a cremation-accustomed Hindu poet conceived of the strange > impression interments left on his mind, when the earth, who is supposed to > have always only one husband (ruler) at a time, takes them all together > inside herself (h?day?ntare = bhu-ga*rbh*e), where they now seem to sleep > comfortably side by side. > > > I am sorry that I had not clarified the full context in my earlier mail > and so unintentionally caused some confusion. I just wanted to be brief > in pointing out the theoretical possibility that -rbha might have been > misread for -rta, and that an early mislection of that sort may have easily > survived in copies made from such an exemplar. > > > Warm wishes, > > Walter > > > > ----------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar > Deutschland > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > > > 2014-02-09 0:29 GMT+01:00 Ashok Aklujkar : > >> I have a few questions to ask: >> >> Is "garbha" found after a male name in a compound that could serve as >> someone's personal name or epithet? >> (The late grammarian Naage;sa speaks of himself as "satii-garbhaja", but >> in that compound "satii" is his mother's name.) >> >> Dr. Stern observes: "A Google search will give you references for this >> scholar [= Naaraayana-garbha]." I made a Google search in all ways I could >> think of, but did not hit upon anything resembling "Naaraayana-garbha". >> Either Dr. Stern was expressing a hope or I need to get a list of the >> references he found. >> (The reference in the NCC is based on the published edition. It does not >> add to what we know.) >> >> I had checked Prof. Slaje's excellent booklet that introduces the Sharada >> script for the benefit of those who do not know that script, but I did not >> find anything in it that would suggest that "rbha" and "rta"" could be so >> similar as to be mistaken for each other. I would be grateful for a >> specific reference to discussions of the Sharada script that suggest such a >> possibility. Alternatively, a presentation of what the shapes of rbha" and >> "rta"" are according to Prof. Slaje will be useful. >> >> (The details of the book to which I referred in my last post for a >> one-time confusability of "rta" and "rga" are: OJHA, Gaurishankar >> Hirachand. The palaeography of India = Bhaaratiiya praaciina >> lipimaalaa. Delhi : Munshi Ram Manohar Lal, 1959. Third edition. New Delhi >> 1971.) >> >> It certainly deserves admiration that Prof. Slaje has recollected an >> occurrence that could serve as an exact parallel to what we find in the mss >> of Naaraaya.na's commentary. However, Srikanth Kaul' himself does not >> specify that he has emended the text the way he has because "rbha" could be >> a miscopying of "rta". Therefore, we are free to think that he took the >> editorial action he did only for a semantic reason. At the most we can >> infer that he did not hesitate to emend or did not feel the need to justify >> his action because he was aware of the confusability of "rbha" as "rta" and >> "rta" as "rbha". >> >> What kind of semantic reason? In the passage concerned, ;Sriivara >> describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body brought in a coffin >> and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a space that exists >> in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal person (note >> "ak.sipat," note absence of any reference to preparation of the burial >> ground etc.). In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a >> 'ditch' or 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would >> connote greater depth). >> >> (I could not find any occurrences of "bhuu-garbha" in Classical Skt with >> our standard reference tools. Apte's dictionary records the word only as an >> epithet of Vi.s..nu. In many modern Indian languages "bhuu-garbha-;saastra" >> is used for 'geology'.) >> >> Whether we go along with Kaul or view his emendation as unnecessary or as >> an attempt to improve ;Sriivara's original, does it not seem that the >> evidence given for favoring the change of "garta" to "garbha" in the >> pu.spikaa of Naaraaya.na's commentary is not as strong as it may initially >> seem? >> >> I will conclude with a clarification. I take Kayya.ta to be a Kashmirian, >> but Naaraaya.na (= Naaraaya.na-garga, less probably Naaraaya.na-garbha) >> may be from Kashmir or any part of western India to the south of Kashmir. >> Also, he may not be close to Kayya.ta in time. He could belong to a time >> when the gotra names began to be used after personal names to identify >> oneself. >> >> a.a. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scharfpm7 at gmail.com Sun Feb 9 13:05:20 2014 From: scharfpm7 at gmail.com (Peter Scharf) Date: Sun, 09 Feb 14 18:35:20 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Current email address In-Reply-To: <20131202230701.21101.75266@remi.inria.fr> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Please note that my French email addresses at Inria and the University of Paris Diderot have or may shortly expire. My current email address is: scharf at sanskritlibrary.org Yours, Peter Peter M. Scharf, President The Sanskrit Library scharf at sanskritlibrary.org http://www.sanskritlibrary.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Sun Feb 9 18:15:58 2014 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sun, 09 Feb 14 10:15:58 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <94AECDA9-CB82-4947-BFEA-66975BAFCCC3@gmail.com> Dear Walter, Many thanks for the additional information (especially reference to p. 56 of your book on Sharada script) and observations. As I stated in my post of yesterday, I accept your main point that "rbha" and "rta" could be confused. By now, I have been given enough evidence to think of "rbha" --> "rta" as a more likely corruption In the case of the Devii;sataka commentary pu.spikaa than the "rga" --> "rta" corruption that I had initially suggested. Attestation of 'naaraaya.na-garbha" in another manuscript and the suggestion of the evidence collected from the Einoo-edited book to the effect that there indeed were names ending -garbha (albeit only in the Tantrik tradition and probably only as pen-names or post-initiation names) further removed my resistance to the "rta" --> "rbha" emendation. In an earlier stage of my thinking, I would have liked to get an *explicit* statement from S. Kaul on the confusability of "rta" and "rbha", but such a statement is no longer necessary. That he suggests through his employment of "mislection" that copyists misread "bhuu-garta" as "bhuu-garbha" and may, therefore, be thought of as having in front of them a writing that could be understood either way -- as "rta" or as "rbha" -- is now sufficient in view of the evidence coming from other quarters. About the (reverse) "rbha" --> "rta" emendation in verse 2.209 of ;Sriivara's Raaja-tara:ngi.nii, we should start another thread or discuss the matter when we meet next. You probably are as short of time as I am at present. I leave the choice to you. With best wishes, ashok On 2014-02-09, at 1:12 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: > Dear Ashok, > > On page 56 of my booklet (with the original ak?aras reproduced from a ??rad? manuscript) you can check this possibility for yourself, the difference being that a halfcircle below the m?tr? is open to the left (rta) or closed (rbha). This applies of course to actual handwriting only, but not to the abstracted shapes of ??rad? ak?aras, which is why I did not categorize such forms under the heading of "Semi-homographe Ak?aras" (pp. 43 ff), where you therefore might have looked in vain. > > 2) > Srikanth Kaul' himself does not specify that he has emended the text the way he has because "rbha" could be a miscopying of "rta". > > I have quoted Kaul's editorial note verbatim, and he writes indeed: > " (mislec[tion] for ??r. rt?)". Kaul considered rbha a ??rad? mislection for an original -rta and emended his text accordingly. > > 3) > Sriivara describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body brought in a coffin and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a space that exists in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal person > > Actually, ?r?vara here solemnly describes a royal funeral in accordance with Muslim rites. This is the context of the stanza quoted by me: > ?asan, Sul??n Zayn's grandson and heir to his deceased father, buries his father Sul??n ?aydar ??h (who unfortunately died of excessive alcoholism). > > Regrettably, vocabulary and modes of expression of the largely ignored post-Kalha?ian R?jatara?gi??s are nowhere recorded in our standard dictionaries. > > > > 4) > In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a 'ditch' or 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would connote greater depth). > > > > From the actual context as given above a different picture emerges. The new Sul??n would hardly have dumped his father into a ditch, for he was publicly buried at the royal cemetery in ?r?nagar. > > ?r?vara was a poet and expressed himself as such a one. That he had indeed a "womb of the earth" in mind when composing his stanza can be seen from a telling parallel, where he depicts Zayn's burial as an eyewitness, at the occasion of which he had been present as well: > > yatra supt? ivaikatra bh?nti p?rve mah?bhuja? | > > bhart?prem?? dhara?y eva nihit? h?day?ntare || Zayna-T. 1.7.227 || > > "There, [where] the Earth had taken them inside for love of her [royal] husbands, the previous Sul??ns appeared to be asleep [together] in the same place." > That is the way a cremation-accustomed Hindu poet conceived of the strange impression interments left on his mind, when the earth, who is supposed to have always only one husband (ruler) at a time, takes them all together inside herself (h?day?ntare = bhu-garbhe), where they now seem to sleep comfortably side by side. > > > I am sorry that I had not clarified the full context in my earlier mail and so unintentionally caused some confusion. I just wanted to be brief in pointing out the theoretical possibility that -rbha might have been misread for -rta, and that an early mislection of that sort may have easily survived in copies made from such an exemplar. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Mon Feb 10 03:37:40 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 14 09:07:40 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: <94AECDA9-CB82-4947-BFEA-66975BAFCCC3@gmail.com> Message-ID: 10 2 14 With greetings to all! The dialogue reminds me of a linguistic phenomenon that I had tried to guess, wrongly or rightly, from a wrong reading in the Kashmir ms of the Paippal?da-Sa?hit? of the AV. In 12.19.2 the AVP reads *?raddhema? brahma ju?at?m?*. The Kashmir ms reads *bhraddhema? ju?at???* This was the only confusion between *?ra *and *bhra *that I had noted in the Kashmir ms. My guess at that time was that the *bhra* had come via a *tra*. The source of the *tra*, I had guessed, was a noted early tendency to replace an initial s- by t- in the South. The AVP had sometimes remained in the South. Later I had to consider the similarity between *?ra *and *bhra* in 16thcentury ??rada. Still I do not think that that satisfactorily solves the problem. Best DB On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > Dear Walter, > > Many thanks for the additional information (especially reference to p. 56 > of your book on Sharada script) and observations. > > As I stated in my post of yesterday, I accept your main point that "rbha" > and "rta" could be confused. > > By now, I have been given enough evidence to think of "rbha" --> "rta" as > a more likely corruption In the case of the Devii;sataka commentary > pu.spikaa than the "rga" --> "rta" corruption that I had initially > suggested. Attestation of 'naaraaya.na-garbha" in another manuscript and > the suggestion of the evidence collected from the Einoo-edited book to the > effect that there indeed were names ending -garbha (albeit only in the > Tantrik tradition and probably only as pen-names or post-initiation names) > further removed my resistance to the "rta" --> "rbha" emendation. > > In an earlier stage of my thinking, I would have liked to get an > *explicit* statement from S. Kaul on the confusability of "rta" and "rbha", > but such a statement is no longer necessary. That he suggests through his > employment of "mislection" that copyists misread "bhuu-garta" as > "bhuu-garbha" and may, therefore, be thought of as having in front of them > a writing that could be understood either way -- as "rta" or as "rbha" -- > is now sufficient in view of the evidence coming from other quarters. > > About the (reverse) "rbha" --> "rta" emendation in verse 2.209 of > ;Sriivara's Raaja-tara:ngi.nii, we should start another thread or discuss > the matter when we meet next. You probably are as short of time as I am at > present. I leave the choice to you. > > With best wishes, > > ashok > > > On 2014-02-09, at 1:12 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: > > Dear Ashok, > > On page 56 of my booklet (with the original ak?aras reproduced from a > ??rad? manuscript) you can check this possibility for yourself, the > difference being that a halfcircle below the m?tr? is open to the left > (rta) or closed (rbha). This applies of course to actual handwriting only, > but not to the abstracted shapes of ??rad? ak?aras, which is why I did not > categorize such forms under the heading of "Semi-homographe Ak?aras" (pp. > 43 ff), where you therefore might have looked in vain. > > 2) > Srikanth Kaul' himself does not specify that he has emended the text > the way he has because "rbha" could be a miscopying of "rta". > > I have quoted Kaul's editorial note verbatim, and he writes indeed: > " (*mislec[tion] for ??r. rt?*)". Kaul considered rbha a ??rad? > mislection for an original -rta and emended his text accordingly. > > 3) > Sriivara describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body > brought in a coffin and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a > space that exists in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal > person > > Actually, ?r?vara here solemnly describes a royal funeral in accordance > with Muslim rites. This is the context of the stanza quoted by me: > > ?asan, Sul??n Zayn's grandson and heir to his deceased father, buries his > father Sul??n ?aydar ??h (who unfortunately died of excessive alcoholism). > > Regrettably, vocabulary and modes of expression of the largely ignored > post-Kalha?ian R?jatara?gi??s are nowhere recorded in our standard > dictionaries. > > > 4) > In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a 'ditch' or > 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would connote > greater depth). > > > From the actual context as given above a different picture emerges. The > new Sul??n would hardly have dumped his father into a ditch, for he was publicly > buried at the royal cemetery in ?r?nagar. > > ?r?vara was a poet and expressed himself as such a one. That he had indeed > a "womb of the earth" in mind when composing his stanza can be seen from a > telling parallel, where he depicts Zayn's burial as an eyewitness, at the > occasion of which he had been present as well: > > *yatra supt? ivaikatra bh?nti p?rve mah?bhuja? |* > > *bhart?prem?? dhara?y eva nihit? h?day?ntare* || Zayna-T. 1.7.227 || > "There, [where] *the Earth had taken them inside* for love of her [royal] > husbands, the previous Sul??ns appeared to be asleep [together] in the same > place." > > > That is the way a cremation-accustomed Hindu poet conceived of the strange > impression interments left on his mind, when the earth, who is supposed to > have always only one husband (ruler) at a time, takes them all together > inside herself (h?day?ntare = bhu-ga*rbh*e), where they now seem to sleep > comfortably side by side. > > I am sorry that I had not clarified the full context in my earlier mail > and so unintentionally caused some confusion. I just wanted to be brief > in pointing out the theoretical possibility that -rbha might have been > misread for -rta, and that an early mislection of that sort may have easily > survived in copies made from such an exemplar. > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Mon Feb 10 07:56:13 2014 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 14 08:56:13 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Professor Bhattacharya, thank you for bringing up the interesting case of the dubious textual quality of the Kashmirian Paippal?da-Sa?hit?. The genesis of this copy can - as in the case just discussed of Muslim obsequies couched in the language of the Gods - again not be looked at in isolation, but requires to take Kashmir's previous transition to Islam and the newly provided cultural context for Vedic and Sanskrit learning into consideration. Here again, the post-Kalha?ian Tara?gi??s, ?r?vara in particular, are marked representatives of an innovative Sanskrit interaction with Islamic rule at Persophone courts and at the same time constitute an invaluable source of reliable historical information. Just for the records, I take the liberty of attaching a paper on the history of the Atharvaveda copy: Three Bha??as, Two Sul??ns, and the Kashmirian Atharvaveda. In: The Atharvaveda and its Paippal?da??kh?. Historical and Philological Papers on a Vedic Tradition. Ed. by Arlo Griffiths and Annette Schmiedchen. [Geisteskultur Indiens. Texte und Studien.11. = Studia Indologica Universitatis Halensis.] Aachen 2007: 329?353. Kindly regarding, Walter Slaje ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. 2014-02-10 4:37 GMT+01:00 Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya < dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>: > 10 2 14 > > With greetings to all! > > The dialogue reminds me of a linguistic phenomenon that I had tried to > guess, wrongly or rightly, from a wrong reading in the Kashmir ms of the > Paippal?da-Sa?hit? of the AV. In 12.19.2 the AVP reads *?raddhema? brahma > ju?at?m?*. The Kashmir ms reads *bhraddhema? ju?at???* This was the only > confusion between *?ra *and *bhra *that I had noted in the Kashmir ms. My > guess at that time was that the *bhra* had come via a *tra*. The source > of the *tra*, I had guessed, was a noted early tendency to replace an > initial s- by t- in the South. The AVP had sometimes remained in the > South. > > Later I had to consider the similarity between *?ra *and *bhra* in 16thcentury ??rada. Still I do not think that that satisfactorily solves the > problem. > > Best > > DB > > > On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > >> Dear Walter, >> >> Many thanks for the additional information (especially reference to p. 56 >> of your book on Sharada script) and observations. >> >> As I stated in my post of yesterday, I accept your main point that "rbha" >> and "rta" could be confused. >> >> By now, I have been given enough evidence to think of "rbha" --> "rta" as >> a more likely corruption In the case of the Devii;sataka commentary >> pu.spikaa than the "rga" --> "rta" corruption that I had initially >> suggested. Attestation of 'naaraaya.na-garbha" in another manuscript and >> the suggestion of the evidence collected from the Einoo-edited book to the >> effect that there indeed were names ending -garbha (albeit only in the >> Tantrik tradition and probably only as pen-names or post-initiation names) >> further removed my resistance to the "rta" --> "rbha" emendation. >> >> In an earlier stage of my thinking, I would have liked to get an >> *explicit* statement from S. Kaul on the confusability of "rta" and "rbha", >> but such a statement is no longer necessary. That he suggests through his >> employment of "mislection" that copyists misread "bhuu-garta" as >> "bhuu-garbha" and may, therefore, be thought of as having in front of them >> a writing that could be understood either way -- as "rta" or as "rbha" -- >> is now sufficient in view of the evidence coming from other quarters. >> >> About the (reverse) "rbha" --> "rta" emendation in verse 2.209 of >> ;Sriivara's Raaja-tara:ngi.nii, we should start another thread or discuss >> the matter when we meet next. You probably are as short of time as I am at >> present. I leave the choice to you. >> >> With best wishes, >> >> ashok >> >> >> On 2014-02-09, at 1:12 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: >> >> Dear Ashok, >> >> On page 56 of my booklet (with the original ak?aras reproduced from a >> ??rad? manuscript) you can check this possibility for yourself, the >> difference being that a halfcircle below the m?tr? is open to the left >> (rta) or closed (rbha). This applies of course to actual handwriting only, >> but not to the abstracted shapes of ??rad? ak?aras, which is why I did not >> categorize such forms under the heading of "Semi-homographe Ak?aras" (pp. >> 43 ff), where you therefore might have looked in vain. >> >> 2) > Srikanth Kaul' himself does not specify that he has emended the >> text the way he has because "rbha" could be a miscopying of "rta". >> >> I have quoted Kaul's editorial note verbatim, and he writes indeed: >> " (*mislec[tion] for ??r. rt?*)". Kaul considered rbha a ??rad? >> mislection for an original -rta and emended his text accordingly. >> >> 3) > Sriivara describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body >> brought in a coffin and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a >> space that exists in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal >> person >> >> Actually, ?r?vara here solemnly describes a royal funeral in accordance >> with Muslim rites. This is the context of the stanza quoted by me: >> >> ?asan, Sul??n Zayn's grandson and heir to his deceased father, buries his >> father Sul??n ?aydar ??h (who unfortunately died of excessive alcoholism). >> >> Regrettably, vocabulary and modes of expression of the largely ignored >> post-Kalha?ian R?jatara?gi??s are nowhere recorded in our standard >> dictionaries. >> >> >> 4) > In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a 'ditch' or >> 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would connote >> greater depth). >> >> >> From the actual context as given above a different picture emerges. The >> new Sul??n would hardly have dumped his father into a ditch, for he was publicly >> buried at the royal cemetery in ?r?nagar. >> >> ?r?vara was a poet and expressed himself as such a one. That he had >> indeed a "womb of the earth" in mind when composing his stanza can be seen >> from a telling parallel, where he depicts Zayn's burial as an eyewitness, >> at the occasion of which he had been present as well: >> >> *yatra supt? ivaikatra bh?nti p?rve mah?bhuja? |* >> >> *bhart?prem?? dhara?y eva nihit? h?day?ntare* || Zayna-T. 1.7.227 || >> "There, [where] the Earth had taken them inside for love of her [royal] >> husbands, the previous Sul??ns appeared to be asleep [together] in the same >> place." >> >> >> That is the way a cremation-accustomed Hindu poet conceived of the >> strange impression interments left on his mind, when the earth, who is >> supposed to have always only one husband (ruler) at a time, takes them all >> together inside herself (h?day?ntare = bhu-garbhe), where they now seem to >> sleep comfortably side by side. >> >> I am sorry that I had not clarified the full context in my earlier mail >> and so unintentionally caused some confusion. I just wanted to be brief >> in pointing out the theoretical possibility that -rbha might have been >> misread for -rta, and that an early mislection of that sort may have easily >> survived in copies made from such an exemplar. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ThreeBhattas.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 207848 bytes Desc: not available URL: From birendra176 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 10 08:18:48 2014 From: birendra176 at yahoo.com (Birendra Nath Prasad) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 14 00:18:48 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Member's publications on late Indian Buddhism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1392020328.83770.YahooMailBasic@web121901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Dear Collegues, I am happy to announce the publication of my two research articles in prestigious peer-reviewed international journals: 1. Cultic Relationships between Buddhism and Brahmanism in the ?Last Stronghold? of Indian Buddhism: An Analysis with Particular Reference to Votive Inscriptions on the Brahmanical Sculptures Donated to Buddhist Religious Centres in Early Medieval Magadha .Published in Buddhist Studies Review, Journal of the U.K. Association for Buddhist Studies , London , Vol. 30, No. 2 (2013) ,pp. 181-199. Abstract of the paper may be seen at https://www.equinoxpub.com/journals/index.php/BSR/article/view/18521 . This journal is edited by Prof. Peter Harvey and published by Equinox Publications, London. 2. A Folk Tradition Integrated into Mahayana Buddhism: Some Observations on the Votive Inscriptions on Sculptures of Pundesvari/Punyesvari/Purnesvari Discovered in the Kiul-Lakhisarai Area, Bihar .Published in Berlin Indological Studies , Vol.21, 2013 ,pp. 299-306. This Journal is edited by Dr.Gerd Mevvissen and published by WEIDLER Buchverlag Publishers, Berlin, Germany. With regards Birendra Nath Prasad Asstt. Professor, History Deptt. BB Ambedkar Central University Lucknow -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 2/9/14, indology-request at list.indology.info wrote: Subject: INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 13, Issue 13 To: indology at list.indology.info Date: Sunday, February 9, 2014, 9:26 AM Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to ??? indology at list.indology.info To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? indology-request at list.indology.info You can reach the person managing the list at ??? indology-owner at list.indology.info When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Re: N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits (Ashok Aklujkar) ???2. Re: N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits (Elliot Stern) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 19:45:56 -0800 From: Ashok Aklujkar To: "Lubin, Tim" Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] N?r?ya?agarta and Kayya?a Kashmiri pandits Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Thanks to Tim Lubin. Yes. "ta" and "bha" are similar enough in some specimens of Sharada to be misread for each other. So, the point made by Prof. Slaje stands. I have checked as many words ending in -garbha in Einoo's book as I could. Yes, they would support the emendation to -garbha. Helpful responses were also received from Tim Cahill and Bindu Bhatt. Thanks to them as well for clearing my doubts. I withdraw the suggestion to emend the text to -garga. Although that emendation would also have been transcriptionally probable at a certain stage, the support for it is not as many-sided as for -garbha. a.a. On 2014-02-08, at 5:23 PM, Lubin, Tim wrote: > -garbha as a name suffix seems common enough among authors of Tantric texts, or from Tantra-influenced milieux.? A quick search through Genesis and Development of Tantrism, ed. Shingo Einoo, (Kyoto, 2009) yields many examples, including a N?r?ya?agarbha. > > For the graphic similarities cited, these samples are from the Ojha publication Ashok cites: > > > These are 16th c. Sharada examples from Plate XXXI of the same (the second, /bha/, is not necessarily closed) > > > Compare also these, from p. 62 (on ??rad?) of Hemar?j ??kya's _Nep?la Lipi-Prak??a_: > > Certainly close enough to me mistaken given natural variability. > > Also, consider the ta and bha rows in the attached chart, especially for the scripts listed as Vartula, Nepali, and Nandinagari. From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Mon Feb 10 10:00:53 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 14 15:30:53 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many thanks, Professor Slaje! I shall download it, but I have already read it. It is a valuable contribution. But will you mind my remark that the prehistory of the Kashmir manuscript could go well beyond the borders of present Kashmir? I do not mean early pre-history but even so near a time as the late first millennium CE. In fact, you must be better aware than me that there had been some close cultural relation of Kashmir with the current Himachal Pradesh -- a relation that extended as far as Kumaon at least as far as script is concerned. What you say of intra-Kashmir developments is a valuable factor in determining the traits of the unique manuscript (sadly, the original destroyed by the war) -- Witzel spoke of the surrounding environment in the seventies. You are most welcome to continue as you have been. What draws my additional attention -is that the external factors too should get the attention they deserve. . All the best wishes. Dipak Bhattacharya On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Walter Slaje wrote: > Dear Professor Bhattacharya, > > thank you for bringing up the interesting case of the dubious textual > quality of the Kashmirian Paippal?da-Sa?hit?. > > The genesis of this copy can - as in the case just discussed of Muslim > obsequies couched in the language of the Gods - again not be looked at in > isolation, but requires to take Kashmir's previous transition to Islam and > the newly provided cultural context for Vedic and Sanskrit learning into > consideration. Here again, the post-Kalha?ian Tara?gi??s, ?r?vara in > particular, are marked representatives of an innovative Sanskrit > interaction with Islamic rule at Persophone courts and at the same time > constitute an invaluable source of reliable historical information. > > Just for the records, I take the liberty of attaching a paper on the > history of the Atharvaveda copy: > > Three Bha??as, Two Sul??ns, and the Kashmirian Atharvaveda. In: The > Atharvaveda and its Paippal?da??kh?. Historical and Philological Papers on > a Vedic Tradition. Ed. by Arlo Griffiths and Annette Schmiedchen. [Geisteskultur > Indiens. Texte und Studien.11. = Studia Indologica Universitatis > Halensis.] Aachen 2007: 329?353. > > Kindly regarding, > Walter Slaje > > ----------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar > Deutschland > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > > > 2014-02-10 4:37 GMT+01:00 Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya < > dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>: > >> 10 2 14 >> >> With greetings to all! >> >> The dialogue reminds me of a linguistic phenomenon that I had tried to >> guess, wrongly or rightly, from a wrong reading in the Kashmir ms of the >> Paippal?da-Sa?hit? of the AV. In 12.19.2 the AVP reads *?raddhema? >> brahma ju?at?m?*. The Kashmir ms reads *bhraddhema? ju?at???* This was >> the only confusion between *?ra *and *bhra *that I had noted in the >> Kashmir ms. My guess at that time was that the *bhra* had come via a >> *tra*. The source of the *tra*, I had guessed, was a noted early >> tendency to replace an initial s- by t- in the South. The AVP had >> sometimes remained in the South. >> >> Later I had to consider the similarity between *?ra *and *bhra* in 16thcentury ??rada. Still I do not think that that satisfactorily solves the >> problem. >> >> Best >> >> DB >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Ashok Aklujkar > > wrote: >> >>> Dear Walter, >>> >>> Many thanks for the additional information (especially reference to p. >>> 56 of your book on Sharada script) and observations. >>> >>> As I stated in my post of yesterday, I accept your main point that >>> "rbha" and "rta" could be confused. >>> >>> By now, I have been given enough evidence to think of "rbha" --> "rta" >>> as a more likely corruption In the case of the Devii;sataka commentary >>> pu.spikaa than the "rga" --> "rta" corruption that I had initially >>> suggested. Attestation of 'naaraaya.na-garbha" in another manuscript and >>> the suggestion of the evidence collected from the Einoo-edited book to the >>> effect that there indeed were names ending -garbha (albeit only in the >>> Tantrik tradition and probably only as pen-names or post-initiation names) >>> further removed my resistance to the "rta" --> "rbha" emendation. >>> >>> In an earlier stage of my thinking, I would have liked to get an >>> *explicit* statement from S. Kaul on the confusability of "rta" and "rbha", >>> but such a statement is no longer necessary. That he suggests through his >>> employment of "mislection" that copyists misread "bhuu-garta" as >>> "bhuu-garbha" and may, therefore, be thought of as having in front of them >>> a writing that could be understood either way -- as "rta" or as "rbha" -- >>> is now sufficient in view of the evidence coming from other quarters. >>> >>> About the (reverse) "rbha" --> "rta" emendation in verse 2.209 of >>> ;Sriivara's Raaja-tara:ngi.nii, we should start another thread or discuss >>> the matter when we meet next. You probably are as short of time as I am at >>> present. I leave the choice to you. >>> >>> With best wishes, >>> >>> ashok >>> >>> >>> On 2014-02-09, at 1:12 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: >>> >>> Dear Ashok, >>> >>> On page 56 of my booklet (with the original ak?aras reproduced from a >>> ??rad? manuscript) you can check this possibility for yourself, the >>> difference being that a halfcircle below the m?tr? is open to the left >>> (rta) or closed (rbha). This applies of course to actual handwriting only, >>> but not to the abstracted shapes of ??rad? ak?aras, which is why I did not >>> categorize such forms under the heading of "Semi-homographe Ak?aras" (pp. >>> 43 ff), where you therefore might have looked in vain. >>> >>> 2) > Srikanth Kaul' himself does not specify that he has emended the >>> text the way he has because "rbha" could be a miscopying of "rta". >>> >>> I have quoted Kaul's editorial note verbatim, and he writes indeed: >>> " (*mislec[tion] for ??r. rt?*)". Kaul considered rbha a ??rad? >>> mislection for an original -rta and emended his text accordingly. >>> >>> 3) > Sriivara describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body >>> brought in a coffin and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a >>> space that exists in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal >>> person >>> >>> Actually, ?r?vara here solemnly describes a royal funeral in accordance >>> with Muslim rites. This is the context of the stanza quoted by me: >>> >>> ?asan, Sul??n Zayn's grandson and heir to his deceased father, buries >>> his father Sul??n ?aydar ??h (who unfortunately died of excessive >>> alcoholism). >>> >>> Regrettably, vocabulary and modes of expression of the largely ignored >>> post-Kalha?ian R?jatara?gi??s are nowhere recorded in our standard >>> dictionaries. >>> >>> >>> 4) > In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a 'ditch' or >>> 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would connote >>> greater depth). >>> >>> >>> From the actual context as given above a different picture emerges. >>> The new Sul??n would hardly have dumped his father into a ditch, for he was publicly >>> buried at the royal cemetery in ?r?nagar. >>> >>> ?r?vara was a poet and expressed himself as such a one. That he had >>> indeed a "womb of the earth" in mind when composing his stanza can be seen >>> from a telling parallel, where he depicts Zayn's burial as an eyewitness, >>> at the occasion of which he had been present as well: >>> >>> *yatra supt? ivaikatra bh?nti p?rve mah?bhuja? |* >>> >>> *bhart?prem?? dhara?y eva nihit? h?day?ntare* || Zayna-T. 1.7.227 || >>> "There, [where] the Earth had taken them inside for love of her [royal] >>> husbands, the previous Sul??ns appeared to be asleep [together] in the same >>> place." >>> >>> >>> That is the way a cremation-accustomed Hindu poet conceived of the >>> strange impression interments left on his mind, when the earth, who is >>> supposed to have always only one husband (ruler) at a time, takes them all >>> together inside herself (h?day?ntare = bhu-garbhe), where they now seem to >>> sleep comfortably side by side. >>> >>> I am sorry that I had not clarified the full context in my earlier mail >>> and so unintentionally caused some confusion. I just wanted to be brief >>> in pointing out the theoretical possibility that -rbha might have been >>> misread for -rta, and that an early mislection of that sort may have easily >>> survived in copies made from such an exemplar. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Mon Feb 10 10:57:10 2014 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 14 11:57:10 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Professor Bhattacharya, > the prehistory of the Kashmir manuscript could go well beyond the borders of present Kashmir I fully second, even as far as Karnataka! Thanks again, and with my very best wishes, Walter Slaje ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. 2014-02-10 11:00 GMT+01:00 Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya < dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>: > Many thanks, Professor Slaje! I shall download it, but I have already read > it. It is a valuable contribution. But will you mind my remark that the > prehistory of the Kashmir manuscript could go well beyond the borders of > present Kashmir? I do not mean early pre-history but even so near a time as > the late first millennium CE. In fact, you must be better aware than me > that there had been some close cultural relation of Kashmir with the > current Himachal Pradesh -- a relation that extended as far as Kumaon at > least as far as script is concerned. > What you say of intra-Kashmir developments is a valuable factor in > determining the traits of the unique manuscript (sadly, the original > destroyed by the war) -- Witzel spoke of the surrounding environment in the > seventies. You are most welcome to continue as you have been. What draws my > additional attention -is that the external factors too should get the > attention they deserve. . > All the best wishes. > Dipak Bhattacharya > > > On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Walter Slaje wrote: > >> Dear Professor Bhattacharya, >> >> thank you for bringing up the interesting case of the dubious textual >> quality of the Kashmirian Paippal?da-Sa?hit?. >> >> The genesis of this copy can - as in the case just discussed of Muslim >> obsequies couched in the language of the Gods - again not be looked at in >> isolation, but requires to take Kashmir's previous transition to Islam and >> the newly provided cultural context for Vedic and Sanskrit learning into >> consideration. Here again, the post-Kalha?ian Tara?gi??s, ?r?vara in >> particular, are marked representatives of an innovative Sanskrit >> interaction with Islamic rule at Persophone courts and at the same time >> constitute an invaluable source of reliable historical information. >> >> Just for the records, I take the liberty of attaching a paper on the >> history of the Atharvaveda copy: >> >> Three Bha??as, Two Sul??ns, and the Kashmirian Atharvaveda. In: The >> Atharvaveda and its Paippal?da??kh?. Historical and Philological Papers on >> a Vedic Tradition. Ed. by Arlo Griffiths and Annette Schmiedchen. [Geisteskultur >> Indiens. Texte und Studien.11. = Studia Indologica Universitatis >> Halensis.] Aachen 2007: 329?353. >> >> Kindly regarding, >> Walter Slaje >> >> ----------------------------- >> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje >> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 >> D-99425 Weimar >> Deutschland >> >> Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor >> studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum >> non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, >> sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus >> humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. >> Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. >> >> >> 2014-02-10 4:37 GMT+01:00 Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya < >> dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>: >> >>> 10 2 14 >>> >>> With greetings to all! >>> >>> The dialogue reminds me of a linguistic phenomenon that I had tried to >>> guess, wrongly or rightly, from a wrong reading in the Kashmir ms of the >>> Paippal?da-Sa?hit? of the AV. In 12.19.2 the AVP reads *?raddhema? >>> brahma ju?at?m?*. The Kashmir ms reads *bhraddhema? ju?at???* This was >>> the only confusion between *?ra *and *bhra *that I had noted in the >>> Kashmir ms. My guess at that time was that the *bhra* had come via a >>> *tra*. The source of the *tra*, I had guessed, was a noted early >>> tendency to replace an initial s- by t- in the South. The AVP had >>> sometimes remained in the South. >>> >>> Later I had to consider the similarity between *?ra *and *bhra* in 16thcentury ??rada. Still I do not think that that satisfactorily solves the >>> problem. >>> >>> Best >>> >>> DB >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Ashok Aklujkar < >>> ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Walter, >>>> >>>> Many thanks for the additional information (especially reference to p. >>>> 56 of your book on Sharada script) and observations. >>>> >>>> As I stated in my post of yesterday, I accept your main point that >>>> "rbha" and "rta" could be confused. >>>> >>>> By now, I have been given enough evidence to think of "rbha" --> "rta" >>>> as a more likely corruption In the case of the Devii;sataka commentary >>>> pu.spikaa than the "rga" --> "rta" corruption that I had initially >>>> suggested. Attestation of 'naaraaya.na-garbha" in another manuscript and >>>> the suggestion of the evidence collected from the Einoo-edited book to the >>>> effect that there indeed were names ending -garbha (albeit only in the >>>> Tantrik tradition and probably only as pen-names or post-initiation names) >>>> further removed my resistance to the "rta" --> "rbha" emendation. >>>> >>>> In an earlier stage of my thinking, I would have liked to get an >>>> *explicit* statement from S. Kaul on the confusability of "rta" and "rbha", >>>> but such a statement is no longer necessary. That he suggests through his >>>> employment of "mislection" that copyists misread "bhuu-garta" as >>>> "bhuu-garbha" and may, therefore, be thought of as having in front of them >>>> a writing that could be understood either way -- as "rta" or as "rbha" -- >>>> is now sufficient in view of the evidence coming from other quarters. >>>> >>>> About the (reverse) "rbha" --> "rta" emendation in verse 2.209 of >>>> ;Sriivara's Raaja-tara:ngi.nii, we should start another thread or discuss >>>> the matter when we meet next. You probably are as short of time as I am at >>>> present. I leave the choice to you. >>>> >>>> With best wishes, >>>> >>>> ashok >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2014-02-09, at 1:12 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Ashok, >>>> >>>> On page 56 of my booklet (with the original ak?aras reproduced from a >>>> ??rad? manuscript) you can check this possibility for yourself, the >>>> difference being that a halfcircle below the m?tr? is open to the left >>>> (rta) or closed (rbha). This applies of course to actual handwriting only, >>>> but not to the abstracted shapes of ??rad? ak?aras, which is why I did not >>>> categorize such forms under the heading of "Semi-homographe Ak?aras" (pp. >>>> 43 ff), where you therefore might have looked in vain. >>>> >>>> 2) > Srikanth Kaul' himself does not specify that he has emended the >>>> text the way he has because "rbha" could be a miscopying of "rta". >>>> >>>> I have quoted Kaul's editorial note verbatim, and he writes indeed: >>>> " (*mislec[tion] for ??r. rt?*)". Kaul considered rbha a ??rad? >>>> mislection for an original -rta and emended his text accordingly. >>>> >>>> 3) > Sriivara describes an unceremonious funeral, one in which a body >>>> brought in a coffin and covered with a single sheet is simply dumped into a >>>> space that exists in/on the ground, although it is the body of a royal >>>> person >>>> >>>> Actually, ?r?vara here solemnly describes a royal funeral in accordance >>>> with Muslim rites. This is the context of the stanza quoted by me: >>>> >>>> ?asan, Sul??n Zayn's grandson and heir to his deceased father, buries >>>> his father Sul??n ?aydar ??h (who unfortunately died of excessive >>>> alcoholism). >>>> >>>> Regrettably, vocabulary and modes of expression of the largely ignored >>>> post-Kalha?ian R?jatara?gi??s are nowhere recorded in our standard >>>> dictionaries. >>>> >>>> >>>> 4) > In such a context, "bhuu-garta" conveying the idea of a 'ditch' or >>>> 'trench' seems more appropriate than "bhuu-garbha" (which would connote >>>> greater depth). >>>> >>>> >>>> From the actual context as given above a different picture emerges. >>>> The new Sul??n would hardly have dumped his father into a ditch, for he was publicly >>>> buried at the royal cemetery in ?r?nagar. >>>> >>>> ?r?vara was a poet and expressed himself as such a one. That he had >>>> indeed a "womb of the earth" in mind when composing his stanza can be seen >>>> from a telling parallel, where he depicts Zayn's burial as an eyewitness, >>>> at the occasion of which he had been present as well: >>>> >>>> *yatra supt? ivaikatra bh?nti p?rve mah?bhuja? |* >>>> >>>> *bhart?prem?? dhara?y eva nihit? h?day?ntare* || Zayna-T. 1.7.227 || >>>> "There, [where] the Earth had taken them inside for love of her [royal] >>>> husbands, the previous Sul??ns appeared to be asleep [together] in the same >>>> place." >>>> >>>> >>>> That is the way a cremation-accustomed Hindu poet conceived of the >>>> strange impression interments left on his mind, when the earth, who is >>>> supposed to have always only one husband (ruler) at a time, takes them all >>>> together inside herself (h?day?ntare = bhu-garbhe), where they now seem to >>>> sleep comfortably side by side. >>>> >>>> I am sorry that I had not clarified the full context in my earlier mail >>>> and so unintentionally caused some confusion. I just wanted to be >>>> brief in pointing out the theoretical possibility that -rbha might have >>>> been misread for -rta, and that an early mislection of that sort may have >>>> easily survived in copies made from such an exemplar. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>>> >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.bowles1 at uq.edu.au Tue Feb 11 04:53:49 2014 From: a.bowles1 at uq.edu.au (Adam Bowles) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 04:53:49 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] language identification Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, A colleague who is not a member of this list has requested assistance with the following query: I'm editing for a fairly soon publication a play (William Archer's The Green Goddess) which has simple short bits of dialogue in a foreign language, unidentified. The play is a melodrama set in a remote place in the north-western Himalayas, north of and so outside of the then British-ruled areas (the play's writing date is 1920). I have the TS prompt book used by JCW for their Australian production in 1924, but of course though that gives bits of dialogue in this language, and provide translations into English, the script doesn't identify what language they are using. It is not Hindustani, that is made clear, though that is also used here and there. Here are a few samples from the TS along with the translations: ?Unkeitha hu!? (They are alive!); ?Hub sa jumphti odt, hu keitha!? (Two of them are alive, at least); ?Un nukkha jan ru!? (They are not killed); ?Guth, baith un pai hai dosha!? (Back, they may have the Evil Eye). The Priest?s explanation is given: ?Kha hai Adythum? (This is her temple). ?Au ka jahah kaman sa gulbia? (She beckoned your ship out of the sky). ?Kha main tha hunthal Maharaj ka? (The land is ruled by our Raja). ?Go hai nuxman? (That is the palace there). ?Ha khaja un ka hasthi? (I have sent for him). ?Kumajo heinga dha? (He will be here soon). Traherne is introduced ?blindfold? and the High (Chief) Priest curses Traherne: ?Sat tu sicurah da non lasharay andarah, guescha bect-cha, liberal dubo toto suferanza. Kay sat ychi; kay sat ychi? (Death to you; death by terrible torture. You pollute our sacred temple. The Great Roc found you. It brought you here. Death, suffering, the curse of the Green Goddess be on you). I rather suspect the 'liberal dubo toto suferanza' phrase: it sounds like a kind of esperanto pidgin slipped in for audience comprehension. But I believe the rest to be a genuine local language. Pahari? any help in this would be most appreciated and of course acknowledged in its site of publication: the Manchester UP journal Nineteenth Century Film and Theatre. If anyone has any insight to offer, please email Professor Veronica Kelly at v.kelly at uq.edu.au. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Best Adam Bowles The University of Queensland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dchakra at hotmail.de Tue Feb 11 05:02:59 2014 From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 10:32:59 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Whish Collection! Message-ID: Whish Collection! Dear Friends,if anyone could tell me about 'Whish' with which a collection at the Royal Academy of London is associated.RegardsDebabrata Chakrabarti ?This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.? ? Anandamayi Ma ?Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.? - Paracelsus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Tue Feb 11 07:47:23 2014 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 07:47:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] language identification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It seems to me that quite a lot of it , not just ?liberal dubo toto suferanza?, is made up from Western languages. E.g. ?Adythum? < adytum, the sanctuary of a temple in ancient Greece. ??sicurah? non lasharay? sounds again like garbled Italian (We won?t leave wrote: > 'liberal dubo toto suferanza' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 10:14:57 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 11:14:57 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India by Penguin India Message-ID: ?Dear colleagues, ? ?I am appalled to learn of yet another book-banning episode in India, this time ?affecting our colleague Wendy Doniger.? ?Yesterday, if I understand correctly, Penguin India agreed to withdraw the book rather than fight the law case: - ? http://scroll.in/article/penguin-agrees-to-pulp-us-scholars-book-on-hinduism-on-pressure-from-fundamentalists?id=656104 ?If you read the five objections offered against the book, they are risible. It beggars belief that any court, much less a publisher, would take objections of this type seriously. As a Penguin Delhi author myself, I shall be writing to Penguin India to protest this dark-ages ruling. ? ? ?Penguin Delhi's contact details are here: http://www.penguinbooksindia.com/en/content/contact-us Dominik Wujastyk University of Vienna? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DonigerSaket-District-Court-Setlement-page-13.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1004503 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hegartyjm at googlemail.com Tue Feb 11 10:26:22 2014 From: hegartyjm at googlemail.com (James Hegarty) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 10:26:22 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Prof._von_Hin=C3=BCber_paper?= Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I have been informed by my university library that the following volume is unavailable on inter-library loan: Buddhism and its relation to other Religions: Essays in Honour of Dr. S. Kumoi on the occasion of his 70th birthday, Kyoto, 1985. I take the reference from Hin?ber's Handbook of Pali Literature, which does not seem to name the editor. I am, in particular, looking for Hin?ber's contribution to this volume: 'Epigraphical Varieties of Continental P?li from Devnimori and Ratnagiri.' Can anyone help me? Best Wishes, James Hegarty Cardiff University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From caf57 at cam.ac.uk Tue Feb 11 10:59:22 2014 From: caf57 at cam.ac.uk (C.A. Formigatti) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 10:59:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] language identification (Adam Bowles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <99610dee8238a6ea2a69b09b9bd47d27@cam.ac.uk> Dear Dr Bowles, At least a part of the last quote is in Italian, but written with a funny English orthography: ?_Sat tu sicurah da non lasharay andarah, guescha bect-cha, liberal dubo toto suferanza. Sei tu sicura di non lasciare andare questa vecchia, liberala da tutta [la] sofferenza The translation 'Death to you; death by terrible torture' etc. doesn't correspond to the Italian, which means 'Are you sure you want to release this old woman, free her from [the] suffering' or something in this direction (the last part is a little bit strange). I hope I've been able to help you! Camillo Formigatti On 2014-02-11 10:15, indology-request at list.indology.info wrote: > Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to > indology at list.indology.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > indology-request at list.indology.info > > You can reach the person managing the list at > indology-owner at list.indology.info > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. language identification (Adam Bowles) > 2. Whish Collection! (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) > 3. Re: language identification (Valerie J Roebuck) > 4. Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India by Penguin > India (Dominik Wujastyk) > > > Dear Colleagues, > > A colleague who is not a member of this list has requested assistance > with the following query: > >> I'm editing for a fairly soon publication a play (William Archer's >> _The Green Goddess_) which has simple short bits of dialogue in a >> foreign language, unidentified. The play is a melodrama set in a >> remote place in the north-western Himalayas, north of and so outside >> of the then British-ruled areas (the play's writing date is 1920). I >> have the TS prompt book used by JCW for their Australian production >> in 1924, but of course though that gives bits of dialogue in this >> language, and provide translations into English, the script doesn't >> identify what language they are using. It is not Hindustani, that is >> made clear, though that is also used here and there. >> >> Here are a few samples from the TS along with the translations: > >> ?_Unkeitha hu_!? (They are alive!); ?_Hub sa jumphti odt, hu >> keitha_!? (Two of them are alive, at least); ?_Un nukkha jan >> ru_!? (They are not killed); ?_Guth, baith un pai hai dosha!_? >> (Back, they may have the Evil Eye). >> >> The Priest?s explanation is given: ?_Kha hai Adythum_? (This >> is her temple). ?_Au ka jahah kaman sa gulbia_? (She beckoned >> your ship out of the sky). ?_Kha main tha hunthal Maharaj ka_? >> (The land is ruled by our Raja). ?_Go hai nuxman_? (That is the >> palace there). ?_Ha khaja un ka hasthi_? (I have sent for him). >> ?_Kumajo heinga dha_? (He will be here soon). >> >> Traherne is introduced ?blindfold? and the High (Chief) Priest >> curses Traherne: ?_Sat tu sicurah da non lasharay andarah, guescha >> bect-cha, liberal dubo toto suferanza. Kay sat ychi; kay sat >> ychi_? (Death to you; death by terrible torture. You pollute our >> sacred temple. The Great Roc found you. It brought you here. Death, >> suffering, the curse of the Green Goddess be on you). >> >> I rather suspect the 'liberal dubo toto suferanza' phrase: it sounds >> like a kind of esperanto pidgin slipped in for audience >> comprehension. But I believe the rest to be a genuine local >> language. Pahari? >> >> any help in this would be most appreciated and of course >> acknowledged in its site of publication: the Manchester UP journal >> _Nineteenth Century Film and Theatre._ > > If anyone has any insight to offer, please email Professor Veronica > Kelly at v.kelly at uq.edu.au. Any assistance would be greatly > appreciated. > > Best > Adam Bowles > > The University of Queensland > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info From manufrancis at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 11:51:18 2014 From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 12:51:18 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Illustrated Kamasutra Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I have been asked by a colleague, without being able to provide a clear answer, about the date of the earliest Kamasutra manuscripts with erotic illustrations or simply erotic illustrations derived from the Kamasutra. Has anybody ideas and, even better, references to share? With very best wishes. Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Tue Feb 11 12:31:49 2014 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 12:31:49 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India by Penguin India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you for telling us about this. I am a Penguin India author too, and have emailed them with my concerns. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK On 11 Feb 2014, at 10:14, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > ?Dear colleagues, > > ??I am appalled to learn of yet another book-banning episode in India, this time ?affecting our colleague Wendy Doniger.? > > ?Yesterday, if I understand correctly, Penguin India agreed to withdraw the book rather than fight the law case: > > ?http://scroll.in/article/penguin-agrees-to-pulp-us-scholars-book-on-hinduism-on-pressure-from-fundamentalists?id=656104 > > ?If you read the five objections offered against the book, they are risible. It beggars belief that any court, much less a publisher, would take objections of this type seriously. > > As a Penguin Delhi author myself, I shall be writing to Penguin India to protest this dark-ages ruling. ? ? > > ?Penguin Delhi's contact details are here: http://www.penguinbooksindia.com/en/content/contact-us > > Dominik Wujastyk > University of Vienna? > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Tue Feb 11 13:05:45 2014 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 13:05:45 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Illustrated Kamasutra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As far as I know there are no illustrated mss of the Kamasutra. If I remember well, the illustrations in Wendy Doniger's translation were taken from a medical (!) treatise. How can one possibly illustrate a list of the 20 ways why one would seduce another man's wife (it almost sounds like the Paul Simon song "57 ways to end a marriage" ) ? Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Manu Francis [manufrancis at gmail.com] Verzonden: dinsdag 11 februari 2014 12:51 To: Indology Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Illustrated Kamasutra Dear Colleagues, I have been asked by a colleague, without being able to provide a clear answer, about the date of the earliest Kamasutra manuscripts with erotic illustrations or simply erotic illustrations derived from the Kamasutra. Has anybody ideas and, even better, references to share? With very best wishes. Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From witzel at fas.harvard.edu Tue Feb 11 14:15:57 2014 From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 09:15:57 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <22DC2669-BBE5-49C3-8E79-D0E5EFAECFDE@fas.harvard.edu> D. Bhattacharya's memory of our Seventies talks at Leiden about the T?bingen Kashmir MSS is not accurate: * the unique birchbark MS of the Paippalada Samhita (sent to R. Roth by the Maharaja of Kashmir in the 1870s) is quite safe. It has not been damaged at all in World War II. In fact, it has been scanned a few years ago by e-ternals in high resolution (1200 ppi), and is now available on multiple CDs. This includes a few small fragments not included in Bloomfield-Garbe's facsimile edition. DB is confabulating here: * rather,the T?bingen Ka?ha MSS had been flooded by the rivulet Ammer in 1951, which of course does not damage Bhurja MSS written with Kashmiri ink. They have been restored in Munich in the Seventies/Eighties, and are in perfect condition now: The provisional 'restoration' carried out by Schroeder in the 1890s --- pasting broken leaves together with thin paper-- has been reversed so that all passages are perfectly legible now. They too have been scanned (in part) by e-ternals. See the facsimiles in my ed. of Ka?ha ?ra?yaka (HOS, 2004) for the "before and after" condition. * The only Kashmir MSS lost in the war are some of the Katha MSS sent by M.A. Stein to Berlin in the 1890s. During the war they had been stored --like so many other valuable objects such as L?ders' MS of his "Varu?a" -- in a mine. While L?ders' MS was messed up by soldiers during the occupation, some of Berlin Katha MSS (a big ?caka) have never been recovered. Luckily, Stein had sent old ?cakas to T?bingen, Vienna, Paris and Oxford as well. Cheers, Michael On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:00 AM, Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya wrote: > > ? a valuable factor in determining the traits of the unique manuscript (sadly, the original destroyed by the war) -- Witzel spoke of the surrounding environment in the seventies. You are most welcome to continue as you have been. What draws my additional attention -is that the external factors too should get the attention they deserve. . > All the best wishes. > Dipak Bhattacharya > > ============ > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > Wales Prof. of Sanskrit & > Director of Graduate Studies, > Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, fax 617 - 496 8571; > my direct line: 617- 496 2990 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 15:00:55 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 20:30:55 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09N=C4=81r=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87agarta_and_Kayya=E1=B9=ADa_Kashmiri_pandits?= In-Reply-To: <22DC2669-BBE5-49C3-8E79-D0E5EFAECFDE@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: 11 02 14 There is some error in Michael Witzel?s report.The impression was not the result of any talk at Leiden. I could not have talked about the matter with anyone before going to T?bingen because I did not know it. I visited T?bingen in June 1982. Professor Upadhye of Bombay, at that time staying there as an invitee, took me to the Indologisches Instit?t. Professor Stietencron told a gentleman to show me around. The person in charge of the manuscript section took me around the library. It was then that I was shown what was claimed to be the ??rad? ms of the AVP. It was in pieces. They told me that the things had been drenched by rainwater during the war. I asked if there was any chance of repairing. They were trying and told me that. I could not check the contents as the damaged material was not accessible. I told the matter to Professor Thieme. He told me in Sanskrit that what was destroyed would live in Chromophotography. I reported the matter at Leiden too. Nobody said otherwise at that time or later. Greetings D.Bhattacharya On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 7:45 PM, Michael Witzel wrote: > D. Bhattacharya's memory of our Seventies talks at Leiden about the > T?bingen Kashmir MSS is not accurate: > > * the unique birchbark MS of the Paippalada Samhita (sent to R. Roth by > the Maharaja of Kashmir in the 1870s) is quite safe. It has not been > damaged at all in World War II. In fact, it has been scanned a few years > ago by e-ternals in high resolution (1200 ppi), and is now available on > multiple CDs. This includes a few small fragments not included in > Bloomfield-Garbe's facsimile edition. > > DB is confabulating here: > > * rather,the T?bingen Ka?ha MSS had been flooded by the rivulet Ammer in > 1951, which of course does not damage Bhurja MSS written with Kashmiri ink. > They have been restored in Munich in the Seventies/Eighties, and are in > perfect condition now: The provisional 'restoration' carried out by > Schroeder in the 1890s --- pasting broken leaves together with thin paper-- > has been reversed so that all passages are perfectly legible now. They too > have been scanned (in part) by e-ternals. > See the facsimiles in my ed. of Ka?ha ?ra?yaka (HOS, 2004) for the "before > and after" condition. > > * The only Kashmir MSS lost in the war are some of the Katha MSS sent by > M.A. Stein to Berlin in the 1890s. During the war they had been stored > --like so many other valuable objects such as L?ders' MS of his "Varu?a" > -- in a mine. While L?ders' MS was messed up by soldiers during the > occupation, some of Berlin Katha MSS (a big ?caka) have never been > recovered. Luckily, Stein had sent old ?cakas to T?bingen, Vienna, Paris > and Oxford as well. > > Cheers, > Michael > > > On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:00 AM, Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya wrote: > > > ? a valuable factor in determining the traits of the unique manuscript > (sadly, the original destroyed by the war) -- Witzel spoke of the > surrounding environment in the seventies. You are most welcome to continue > as you have been. What draws my additional attention -is that the external > factors too should get the attention they deserve. . > All the best wishes. > Dipak Bhattacharya > > > ============ > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > > > Wales Prof. of Sanskrit & > Director of Graduate Studies, > Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, fax 617 - 496 8571; > my direct line: 617- 496 2990 > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk Tue Feb 11 15:08:43 2014 From: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk (Rupert Gethin) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 15:08:43 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Prof._von_Hin=C3=BCber_paper?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <52FA3CFB.5030602@bristol.ac.uk> Dear James, > I have been informed by my university library that the following > volume is unavailable on inter-library loan: > > Buddhism and its relation to other Religions: Essays in Honour of Dr. > S. Kumoi on the occasion of his 70th birthday, Kyoto, 1985. > > I take the reference from Hin?ber's /Handbook of Pali Literature/, > which does not seem to name the editor. I am, in particular, looking > for Hin?ber's contribution to this volume: 'Epigraphical Varieties of > Continental Pa-li from Devnimori and Ratnagiri.' > This article was reprinted in Oskar v. Hin?ber's Kleine Schriften, 2 vols (Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 2009), I 489-504 Best wishes, Rupert Gethin University of Bristol Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jdnarayan at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 15:22:46 2014 From: jdnarayan at gmail.com (Dn Jha) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 20:52:46 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India by Penguin India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We shouln"t expect anything better from Indian Publishers, be it Penguin or any other. They are all spineless. What is still worse, the reaction of the academic community hardly carries any weight. We have seen this in the case of Courtright' book on Ganesh, Laine's book on Shivaji, Ramanujan essay on the Ramayana; examples can be multiplied. In many cases the academics don't even react as I experienced in my own case. They swear by freedom of expression, but the freedom of X becomes superior to the freedom of Y. I am familiar with WendyDoniger's writings which are undoubtedly refreshing and thought provoking and when I read her Hinduism book (Penguin India) I had a feeling that the Sangh Parivar may come out openly against it any time. I will not be surprised if the Parivar repeats performance in the case of her book ON HINDUISM published by the Aleph company last year. Isn't it possible that the Penguin authors mobilise scholars from diferent fields and send a petition-on line to the Publisher. If Peguin does not agree to put the book back into circulation, at least the Penguin authors withdraw their books from them or at least decide not to publish with them in future. This is what some scholars, I am told, did with with Motilal Banarsidass in the case of Courtright's book. D N Jha Former Professor and Chair Department of History University of Delhi jdnarayan at gmail.com -- On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 6:01 PM, Valerie J Roebuck wrote: > Thank you for telling us about this. I am a Penguin India author too, and > have emailed them with my concerns. > > Valerie J Roebuck > Manchester, UK > > On 11 Feb 2014, at 10:14, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > > I am appalled to learn of yet another book-banning episode in India, this > time > affecting our colleague Wendy Doniger. > > > Yesterday, if I understand correctly, Penguin India agreed to withdraw > the book rather than fight the law case: > > > - > http://scroll.in/article/penguin-agrees-to-pulp-us-scholars-book-on-hinduism-on-pressure-from-fundamentalists?id=656104 > > > If you read the five objections offered against the book, > they are risible. It beggars belief that any court, much less a publisher, > would take objections of this type seriously. > > As a Penguin Delhi author myself, I shall be writing to Penguin India to > protest this dark-ages ruling. > > > Penguin Delhi's contact details are here: > http://www.penguinbooksindia.com/en/content/contact-us > > Dominik Wujastyk > University of Vienna > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- -- D N Jha Professor of History (retired), University of Delhi 9, Uttaranchal Apartments 5, I.P. Extension, Delhi 110 092 Tel: + 2277 1049 Cell: 98111 43090 jdnarayan at gmail.com dnjha72 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jdnarayan at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 15:47:24 2014 From: jdnarayan at gmail.com (Dn Jha) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 21:17:24 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India by Penguin India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dn Jha jdnarayan at gmail.com 8:52 PM (23 minutes ago) to Valerie, Dominik, indology We shouln"t expect anything better from Indian Publishers, be it Penguin or any other. They are all spineless. What is still worse, the reaction of the academic community hardly carries any weight. We have seen this in the case of Courtright' book on Ganesh, Laine's book on Shivaji, Ramanujan essay on the Ramayana; examples can be multiplied. In many cases the academics don't even react as I experienced in my own case. They swear by freedom of expression, but the freedom of X becomes superior to the freedom of Y. I am familiar with WendyDoniger's writings which are undoubtedly refreshing and thought provoking and when I read her Hinduism book (Penguin India) I had a feeling that the Sangh Parivar may come out openly against it any time. I will not be surprised if the Parivar repeats performance in the case of her book ON HINDUISM published by the Aleph company last year. Isn't it possible that the Penguin authors mobilise scholars from diferent fields and send a petition-on line to the Publisher. If Peguin does not agree to put the book back into circulation, at least the Penguin authors withdraw their books from them or at least decide not to publish with them in future. This is what some scholars, I am told, did with with Motilal Banarsidass in the case of Courtright's book. D N Jha Former Professor and Chair Department of History University of Delhi jdnarayan at gmail.com On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 8:52 PM, Dn Jha wrote: > We shouln"t expect anything better from Indian Publishers, be it Penguin > or any other. They are all spineless. What is still worse, the reaction of > the academic community hardly carries any weight. We have seen this in the > case of Courtright' book on Ganesh, Laine's book on Shivaji, Ramanujan > essay on the Ramayana; examples can be multiplied. In many cases the > academics don't even react as I experienced in my own case. They swear by > freedom of expression, but the freedom of X becomes superior to the freedom > of Y. > I am familiar with WendyDoniger's writings which are undoubtedly > refreshing and thought provoking and when I read her Hinduism book (Penguin > India) I had a feeling that the Sangh Parivar may come out openly against > it any time. I will not be surprised if the Parivar repeats performance in > the case of her book ON HINDUISM published by the Aleph company last year. > Isn't it possible that the Penguin authors mobilise scholars from diferent > fields and send a petition-on line to the Publisher. If Peguin does not > agree to put the book back into circulation, at least the Penguin authors > withdraw their books from them or at least decide not to publish with them > in future. This is what some scholars, I am told, did with with Motilal > Banarsidass in the case of Courtright's book. > D N Jha > Former Professor and Chair > Department of History > University of Delhi > jdnarayan at gmail.com > -- > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 6:01 PM, Valerie J Roebuck < > vjroebuck at btinternet.com> wrote: > >> Thank you for telling us about this. I am a Penguin India author too, and >> have emailed them with my concerns. >> >> Valerie J Roebuck >> Manchester, UK >> >> On 11 Feb 2014, at 10:14, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I am appalled to learn of yet another book-banning episode in India, this >> time >> affecting our colleague Wendy Doniger. >> >> >> Yesterday, if I understand correctly, Penguin India agreed to withdraw >> the book rather than fight the law case: >> >> >> - >> http://scroll.in/article/penguin-agrees-to-pulp-us-scholars-book-on-hinduism-on-pressure-from-fundamentalists?id=656104 >> >> >> If you read the five objections offered against the book, >> they are risible. It beggars belief that any court, much less a publisher, >> would take objections of this type seriously. >> >> As a Penguin Delhi author myself, I shall be writing to Penguin India to >> protest this dark-ages ruling. >> >> Penguin Delhi's contact details are here: >> http://www.penguinbooksindia.com/en/content/contact-us >> >> Dominik Wujastyk >> University of Vienna >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > > > -- > -- > D N Jha > Professor of History (retired), > University of Delhi > 9, Uttaranchal Apartments > 5, I.P. Extension, Delhi 110 092 > Tel: + 2277 1049 > Cell: 98111 43090 > jdnarayan at gmail.com > dnjha72 at gmail.com > > > -- -- D N Jha Professor of History (retired), University of Delhi 9, Uttaranchal Apartments 5, I.P. Extension, Delhi 110 092 Tel: + 2277 1049 Cell: 98111 43090 jdnarayan at gmail.com dnjha72 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 15:52:23 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 16:52:23 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Illustrated Kamasutra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The MS that was used for the cover of Wendy's book is in fact an incomplete Nepalese MS that probably included the text of the Ratirahasya or the Ana?gara?ga. The surviving textual part of the MS includes passages from Pur??as, and passages on women's temperaments. I attach my description of the MS, which is in the Wellcome Library, London and is formally known as "Wellcome MS Indic alpha 1948". Several folios have been digitized and are available on the Wellcome's website. Go to http://wellcomeimages.org/ and search for "Nepalese." -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies , University of Vienna, Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria and Adjunct Professor, Division of Health and Humanities, St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. Project | home page| HSSA | PGP On 11 February 2014 12:51, Manu Francis wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I have been asked by a colleague, without being able to provide a clear > answer, about the date of the earliest Kamasutra manuscripts with erotic > illustrations or simply erotic illustrations derived from the Kamasutra. > Has anybody ideas and, even better, references to share? > > With very best wishes. > > Emmanuel Francis > Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud > (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) > http://ceias.ehess.fr/ > http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 > http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ > Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, > Universit?t Hamburg) > http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: kama1.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 16894 bytes Desc: not available URL: From e.demichelis at ymail.com Tue Feb 11 16:37:33 2014 From: e.demichelis at ymail.com (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 16:37:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] BBC programme on yoga Message-ID: <1392136653.28775.YahooMailNeo@web172703.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Some of you may be interested in this BBC programme on yoga: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03trq8c "Yoga is big business. Its worth $10bn a year in America alone. Does the growth in yoga's popularity, particularly in the West, mean that its spiritual content and religious roots are being neglected? Can yoga be practised aside from these roots? Are there even dangers in doing so?Ernie Rea is joined by Jim Mallinson from SOAS, University of London, Suzanne Newcombe from the charity Inform and Ramesh Pattni from the Hindu Forum of Britain." Best regards to all, Elizabeth De Michelis Independent scholar modernyogaresearch.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 17:49:36 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 18:49:36 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger Message-ID: I am pleased to circulate the following statement at Wendy Doniger's request: -------------------------------------- Dear friends, I have had literally hundreds of requests for interviews, in various media, and I can?t do them all. So here is a statement that you may use. I hope it?s enough; it?s the best I can do right now. I intend to write a longer article for publication in a couple of weeks. Yours with gratitude for your courage and compassion, wendy I was thrilled and moved by the great number of messages of support that I received, not merely from friends and colleagues but from people in India that I have never met, who had read and loved The Hindus, and by news and media people, all of whom expressed their outrage and sadness and their wish to help me in any way they could. I was, of course, angry and disappointed to see this happen, and I am deeply troubled by what it foretells for free speech in India in the present, and steadily worsening, political climate. And as a publisher?s daughter, I particularly wince at the knowledge that the existing books (unless they are bought out quickly by people intrigued by all the brouhaha) will be pulped. But I do not blame Penguin Books, India. Other publishers have just quietly withdrawn other books without making the effort that Penguin made to save this book. Penguin, India, took this book on knowing that it would stir anger in the Hindutva ranks, and they defended it in the courts for four years, both as a civil and as a criminal suit. They were finally defeated by the true villain of this piece?the Indian law that makes it a criminal rather than civil offense to publish a book that offends any Hindu, a law that jeopardizes the physical safety of any publisher, no matter how ludicrous the accusation brought against a book. An example at random, from the lawsuit in question: ?That YOU NOTICEE has hurt the religious feelings of millions of Hindus by declaring that Ramayana is a fiction. ?Placing the Ramayan in its historical contexts demonstrates that it is a work of fiction, created by human authors, who lived at various times???.? (P.662) This breaches section 295A of the Indian Penal Code (IPC). ? Finally, I am glad that, in the age of the Internet, it is no longer possible to suppress a book. The Hindus is available on Kindle; and if legal means of publication fail, the Internet has other ways of keeping books in circulation. People in India will always be able to read books of all sorts, including some that may offend some Hindus. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: statement.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 45480 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 19:55:34 2014 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 14:55:34 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dominik et al., Given Wendy's defense of Penguin India, what other alternatives are available to those of us who are Penguin India authors? George On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 2:09 PM, George Thompson wrote: > Dear Dominik et al., > > Given Wendy's defense of Penguin India, what other alternatives are > available to those of us who are Penguin India auth > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >> I am pleased to circulate the following statement at Wendy Doniger's >> request: >> >> -------------------------------------- >> >> Dear friends, I have had literally hundreds of requests for interviews, >> in various >> media, and I can't do them all. So here is a statement that you may use. >> I hope >> it's enough; it's the best I can do right now. I intend to write a longer >> article for >> publication in a couple of weeks. Yours with gratitude for your courage >> and >> compassion, wendy >> >> >> I was thrilled and moved by the great number of messages of support that I >> received, not merely from friends and colleagues but from people in India >> that I >> have never met, who had read and loved The Hindus, and by news and media >> people, all of whom expressed their outrage and sadness and their wish to >> help >> me in any way they could. I was, of course, angry and disappointed to see >> this >> happen, and I am deeply troubled by what it foretells for free speech in >> India in >> the present, and steadily worsening, political climate. And as a >> publisher's >> daughter, I particularly wince at the knowledge that the existing books >> (unless >> they are bought out quickly by people intrigued by all the brouhaha) will >> be >> pulped. But I do not blame Penguin Books, India. Other publishers have >> just >> quietly withdrawn other books without making the effort that Penguin made >> to >> save this book. Penguin, India, took this book on knowing that it would >> stir >> anger in the Hindutva ranks, and they defended it in the courts for four >> years, >> both as a civil and as a criminal suit. >> >> They were finally defeated by the true villain of this piece--the Indian >> law >> that makes it a criminal rather than civil offense to publish a book that >> offends >> any Hindu, a law that jeopardizes the physical safety of any publisher, >> no matter >> how ludicrous the accusation brought against a book. An example at random, >> from the lawsuit in question: >> >> 'That YOU NOTICEE has hurt the religious feelings of millions of Hindus >> by >> declaring that Ramayana is a fiction. "Placing the Ramayan in its >> historical >> contexts demonstrates that it is a work of fiction, created by human >> authors, who >> lived at various times.........." (P.662) This breaches section 295A of the >> Indian >> Penal Code (IPC). ' >> >> Finally, I am glad that, in the age of the Internet, it is no longer >> possible to >> suppress a book. The Hindus is available on Kindle; and if legal means of >> publication fail, the Internet has other ways of keeping books in >> circulation. >> >> People in India will always be able to read books of all sorts, including >> some that >> may offend some Hindus. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From e.demichelis at ymail.com Tue Feb 11 20:41:42 2014 From: e.demichelis at ymail.com (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 20:41:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Yoga and Visual Culture Symposium videos on youtube Message-ID: <1392151302.59163.YahooMailNeo@web172706.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> It seems to be media day today! some of you may be interested in the videos of the presentations from the Freer Sackler Gallery's _Yoga and Visual Culture: An Interdisciplinary Symposium_ (November 2013) which are now live on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC8Yzyqd-urBN0GhecAovLvE1jh7PrNH- Apologies for any cross-posting and for the reduplication of some of my messages: it happens automatically and I haven't been able to find out why... Greetings to all, Elizabeth De Michelis Independent scholar modernyogaresearch.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 20:43:23 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 21:43:23 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear George, At first I was furious with Penguin India, but having read Wendy's account of how they fought for her book, I have revised my opinion. I learned with astonishment about the Indian law that criminalizes the publisher of a book that causes offence to any Hindu. It is simply incredible, as a piece of law. So, I think Wendy is probably right, and the culprit is the Indian Penal Code. http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1803184/ : Central Government Act Section 295A in The Indian Penal Code, 1860 295A. 5[ Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs.-- Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feelings of any class of 6[ citizens of India], 7[ by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise] insults or attempts to insult the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to 8[ three years], or with fine, or with both.] I am no historian of law. But this looks to me as though it was framed by the British administration, shortly after the Rebellion. However inappropriate the application of this law to modern scholarly publishing, I remain incredulous that the court decided that it could be established that Wendy showed "deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feeling." I am not sure what action would be appropriate in this case. In the USA, a petition against the book was signed by 10k people. Again, I suppose we could try a petition, but it would not make any difference, and the number of indologists is smaller by several orders than the number of Hindus. I think the deeper issue here is the fact that an ignorant person (or persons) who does not have sufficient specialist education to understand a particular book is nevertheless able to bring a case that is taken seriously by an Indian court and leads to the banning of that book. Imagine an uneducated farmer taking exception to the work of a nuclear physicist. Would a court say that the physicist should not do his research or publish his findings? Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies , University of Vienna, Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria and Adjunct Professor, Division of Health and Humanities, St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. Project | home page| HSSA | PGP On 11 February 2014 20:55, George Thompson wrote: > Dear Dominik et al., > > Given Wendy's defense of Penguin India, what other alternatives are > available to those of us who are Penguin India authors? > > George > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 2:09 PM, George Thompson wrote: > >> Dear Dominik et al., >> >> Given Wendy's defense of Penguin India, what other alternatives are >> available to those of us who are Penguin India auth >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >> >>> I am pleased to circulate the following statement at Wendy Doniger's >>> request: >>> >>> -------------------------------------- >>> >>> Dear friends, I have had literally hundreds of requests for interviews, >>> in various >>> media, and I can?t do them all. So here is a statement that you may use. >>> I hope >>> it?s enough; it?s the best I can do right now. I intend to write a >>> longer article for >>> publication in a couple of weeks. Yours with gratitude for your courage >>> and >>> compassion, wendy >>> >>> >>> I was thrilled and moved by the great number of messages of support that >>> I >>> received, not merely from friends and colleagues but from people in >>> India that I >>> have never met, who had read and loved The Hindus, and by news and media >>> people, all of whom expressed their outrage and sadness and their wish >>> to help >>> me in any way they could. I was, of course, angry and disappointed to >>> see this >>> happen, and I am deeply troubled by what it foretells for free speech in >>> India in >>> the present, and steadily worsening, political climate. And as a >>> publisher?s >>> daughter, I particularly wince at the knowledge that the existing books >>> (unless >>> they are bought out quickly by people intrigued by all the brouhaha) >>> will be >>> pulped. But I do not blame Penguin Books, India. Other publishers have >>> just >>> quietly withdrawn other books without making the effort that Penguin >>> made to >>> save this book. Penguin, India, took this book on knowing that it would >>> stir >>> anger in the Hindutva ranks, and they defended it in the courts for four >>> years, >>> both as a civil and as a criminal suit. >>> >>> They were finally defeated by the true villain of this piece?the Indian >>> law >>> that makes it a criminal rather than civil offense to publish a book >>> that offends >>> any Hindu, a law that jeopardizes the physical safety of any publisher, >>> no matter >>> how ludicrous the accusation brought against a book. An example at >>> random, >>> from the lawsuit in question: >>> >>> ?That YOU NOTICEE has hurt the religious feelings of millions of >>> Hindus by >>> declaring that Ramayana is a fiction. ?Placing the Ramayan in its >>> historical >>> contexts demonstrates that it is a work of fiction, created by human >>> authors, who >>> lived at various times???.? (P.662) This breaches section 295A of the >>> Indian >>> Penal Code (IPC). ? >>> >>> Finally, I am glad that, in the age of the Internet, it is no longer >>> possible to >>> suppress a book. The Hindus is available on Kindle; and if legal means of >>> publication fail, the Internet has other ways of keeping books in >>> circulation. >>> >>> People in India will always be able to read books of all sorts, >>> including some that >>> may offend some Hindus. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Tue Feb 11 21:13:03 2014 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 13:13:03 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] language identification (Adam Bowles) > fake languages in literature, Indian and otherwise In-Reply-To: <99610dee8238a6ea2a69b09b9bd47d27@cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <52FA925F.9060508@u.washington.edu> Just for fun, it might be amusing to study and compare such examples of bogus (?) languages in various literatures. For India, an interesting example is the speech of an Indian shipwrecked sailor in a Greek play found among the Oxyrhynchus papyri. Hultzsch (Hermes 39, 1904, pp. 307-311 and JRAS 1904, pp. 309-345) tried to identify it as proto-Kannada, but L.D. Barnett (Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 12, 1926, pp. 13-15) doubted this, and thought that "it might be mere gibberish." In English, Shakespeare's All's Well that Ends Well' contains a scene (act IV, scene 1) in which the character speak a mysterious language in order to trick the villain Parolles into a confession. The language sounds suspiciously like Italian and/or Latin: First Soldier Boskos vauvado: I understand thee, and can speak thy tongue. Kerely bonto, sir, betake thee to thy faith, for seventeen poniards are at thy bosom. PAROLLES O! First Soldier O, pray, pray, pray! Manka revania dulche Second Lord Oscorbidulchos volivorco. But here the language is intentionally fake, so it is a different case from the one under discussion. There must be many more examples of both types, if anyone wants to waste some time... Richard Salomon On 2/11/2014 2:59 AM, C.A. Formigatti wrote: > Dear Dr Bowles, > > At least a part of the last quote is in Italian, but written with a > funny English orthography: > > ?_Sat tu sicurah da non lasharay andarah, guescha bect-cha, liberal dubo > toto suferanza. > > Sei tu sicura di non lasciare andare questa vecchia, liberala da tutta > [la] sofferenza > > The translation 'Death to you; death by terrible torture' etc. doesn't > correspond to the Italian, which means 'Are you sure you want to release > this old woman, free her from [the] suffering' or something in this > direction (the last part is a little bit strange). > > I hope I've been able to help you! > > Camillo Formigatti > > > On 2014-02-11 10:15, indology-request at list.indology.info wrote: >> Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to >> indology at list.indology.info >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info >> >> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> indology-request at list.indology.info >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. language identification (Adam Bowles) >> 2. Whish Collection! (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) >> 3. Re: language identification (Valerie J Roebuck) >> 4. Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India by Penguin >> India (Dominik Wujastyk) >> >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> A colleague who is not a member of this list has requested assistance >> with the following query: >> >>> I'm editing for a fairly soon publication a play (William Archer's >>> _The Green Goddess_) which has simple short bits of dialogue in a >>> foreign language, unidentified. The play is a melodrama set in a >>> remote place in the north-western Himalayas, north of and so outside >>> of the then British-ruled areas (the play's writing date is 1920). I >>> have the TS prompt book used by JCW for their Australian production >>> in 1924, but of course though that gives bits of dialogue in this >>> language, and provide translations into English, the script doesn't >>> identify what language they are using. It is not Hindustani, that is >>> made clear, though that is also used here and there. >>> >>> Here are a few samples from the TS along with the translations: >> >>> ?_Unkeitha hu_!? (They are alive!); ?_Hub sa jumphti odt, hu >>> keitha_!? (Two of them are alive, at least); ?_Un nukkha jan >>> ru_!? (They are not killed); ?_Guth, baith un pai hai dosha!_? >>> (Back, they may have the Evil Eye). >>> >>> The Priest?s explanation is given: ?_Kha hai Adythum_? (This >>> is her temple). ?_Au ka jahah kaman sa gulbia_? (She beckoned >>> your ship out of the sky). ?_Kha main tha hunthal Maharaj ka_? >>> (The land is ruled by our Raja). ?_Go hai nuxman_? (That is the >>> palace there). ?_Ha khaja un ka hasthi_? (I have sent for him). >>> ?_Kumajo heinga dha_? (He will be here soon). >>> >>> Traherne is introduced ?blindfold? and the High (Chief) Priest >>> curses Traherne: ?_Sat tu sicurah da non lasharay andarah, guescha >>> bect-cha, liberal dubo toto suferanza. Kay sat ychi; kay sat >>> ychi_? (Death to you; death by terrible torture. You pollute our >>> sacred temple. The Great Roc found you. It brought you here. Death, >>> suffering, the curse of the Green Goddess be on you). >>> >>> I rather suspect the 'liberal dubo toto suferanza' phrase: it sounds >>> like a kind of esperanto pidgin slipped in for audience >>> comprehension. But I believe the rest to be a genuine local >>> language. Pahari? >>> >>> any help in this would be most appreciated and of course >>> acknowledged in its site of publication: the Manchester UP journal >>> _Nineteenth Century Film and Theatre._ >> >> If anyone has any insight to offer, please email Professor Veronica >> Kelly at v.kelly at uq.edu.au. Any assistance would be greatly >> appreciated. >> >> Best >> Adam Bowles >> >> The University of Queensland >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -- ---------------------- Richard Salomon Department of Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington, Box 353521 Seattle WA 98195-3521 USA From LubinT at wlu.edu Tue Feb 11 21:25:04 2014 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 21:25:04 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Article 295A was inserted in 1927 through passage of the Criminal Law Amendment Act (Act 25 of 1927), and the wording revised (the part bracketed with note 7: "by signs" and "or otherwise" added) in 1961. This circumstances of this legislation were described in 1934 by Sir H. P. Dastur, Chief Presidency Magistrate of Bombay, in his ruling on a the "Reason Case" (1933), a blasphemy case against a rationalist for his articles in a periodical called "Reason" (the case was dismissed as not falling under the terms of 295A because the author's intent was not malicious -- the same may be said of Prof. Doniger!): "Section 295-A....was introduced by the Criminal Law Amendment Act 25 of 1927 in consequence of the decision..in what is known as the Rangila Rasul case, in which it was held that section 153-A was not meant to stop polemics against a deceased religious leader however scurrilous and in bad taste such attacks may be. "Any criticism, and particularly a vigorous criticism, of any religious belief is bound to hurt or insult the religious feelings of the class of people professing that faith... "As however, that would stifle all honest attempts to introduce social reforms, Legislature has not made a mere intent to insult the religious feelings of any class of His Majesty's subjects, penal under this section. It requires that that should be deliberate intention of the writer and ... "malicious".... " (The Rangila Rasul case had to do with scurrilous pamphlet about the Prophet Muhammad and his wives? see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangila_Rasul ) Article 153A, cited here, is as follows: 153A. 1[ Promoting enmity between different groups on ground of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, etc., and doing acts prejudicial to maintenance of harmony.-- (1) Whoever- (a) by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise, promotes or attempts to promote, on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste or community or any other ground whatsoever, disharmony or feelings of enmity, hatred or ill- will between different religious, racials, language or regional groups or castes or communities, or (b) commits any act which is prejudicial to the maintenance of harmony between different religious, racial, language or regional groups or castes or communities, and which disturbs or is likely to disturb the public tranquillity, 2[ or] (c) 2[ organizes any exercise, movement, drill or other similar activity intending that the participants in such activity shall use or be trained to use criminal force or violence or knowing it to be likely that the participants in such activity will use or be trained to use criminal force or violence, or participates in such activity intending to use or be trained to use criminal force or violence or knowing it to be likely that the participants in such activity will use or be trained to use criminal force or violence, against any religious, racial, language or regional group or caste or community and such activity for any reason whatsoever causes or is likely to cause fear or alarm or a feeling of insecurity amongst members of such religious, racial, language or regional group or caste or community,] shall be punished with imprisonment which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both. (2) Offence committed in place of worship, etc.-- Whoever commits an offence specified in sub- section (1) in any place of worship or in any assembly engaged in the performance of religious worship or religious ceremonies, shall be punished with imprisonment which may extend to five years and shall also be liable to fine.] Tim Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 From: Dominik Wujastyk > Date: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 3:43 PM To: George Thompson > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger Dear George, At first I was furious with Penguin India, but having read Wendy's account of how they fought for her book, I have revised my opinion. I learned with astonishment about the Indian law that criminalizes the publisher of a book that causes offence to any Hindu. It is simply incredible, as a piece of law. So, I think Wendy is probably right, and the culprit is the Indian Penal Code. http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1803184/ : Central Government Act Section 295A in The Indian Penal Code, 1860 295A. 5[ Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs.-- Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feelings of any class of 6[ citizens of India], 7[ by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise] insults or attempts to insult the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to 8[ three years], or with fine, or with both.] I am no historian of law. But this looks to me as though it was framed by the British administration, shortly after the Rebellion. However inappropriate the application of this law to modern scholarly publishing, I remain incredulous that the court decided that it could be established that Wendy showed "deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feeling." I am not sure what action would be appropriate in this case. In the USA, a petition against the book was signed by 10k people. Again, I suppose we could try a petition, but it would not make any difference, and the number of indologists is smaller by several orders than the number of Hindus. I think the deeper issue here is the fact that an ignorant person (or persons) who does not have sufficient specialist education to understand a particular book is nevertheless able to bring a case that is taken seriously by an Indian court and leads to the banning of that book. Imagine an uneducated farmer taking exception to the work of a nuclear physicist. Would a court say that the physicist should not do his research or publish his findings? Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, University of Vienna, Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria and Adjunct Professor, Division of Health and Humanities, St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. Project | home page | HSSA | PGP On 11 February 2014 20:55, George Thompson > wrote: Dear Dominik et al., Given Wendy's defense of Penguin India, what other alternatives are available to those of us who are Penguin India authors? George On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 2:09 PM, George Thompson > wrote: Dear Dominik et al., Given Wendy's defense of Penguin India, what other alternatives are available to those of us who are Penguin India auth On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: I am pleased to circulate the following statement at Wendy Doniger's request: -------------------------------------- Dear friends, I have had literally hundreds of requests for interviews, in various media, and I can?t do them all. So here is a statement that you may use. I hope it?s enough; it?s the best I can do right now. I intend to write a longer article for publication in a couple of weeks. Yours with gratitude for your courage and compassion, wendy I was thrilled and moved by the great number of messages of support that I received, not merely from friends and colleagues but from people in India that I have never met, who had read and loved The Hindus, and by news and media people, all of whom expressed their outrage and sadness and their wish to help me in any way they could. I was, of course, angry and disappointed to see this happen, and I am deeply troubled by what it foretells for free speech in India in the present, and steadily worsening, political climate. And as a publisher?s daughter, I particularly wince at the knowledge that the existing books (unless they are bought out quickly by people intrigued by all the brouhaha) will be pulped. But I do not blame Penguin Books, India. Other publishers have just quietly withdrawn other books without making the effort that Penguin made to save this book. Penguin, India, took this book on knowing that it would stir anger in the Hindutva ranks, and they defended it in the courts for four years, both as a civil and as a criminal suit. They were finally defeated by the true villain of this piece?the Indian law that makes it a criminal rather than civil offense to publish a book that offends any Hindu, a law that jeopardizes the physical safety of any publisher, no matter how ludicrous the accusation brought against a book. An example at random, from the lawsuit in question: ?That YOU NOTICEE has hurt the religious feelings of millions of Hindus by declaring that Ramayana is a fiction. ?Placing the Ramayan in its historical contexts demonstrates that it is a work of fiction, created by human authors, who lived at various times???.? (P.662) This breaches section 295A of the Indian Penal Code (IPC). ? Finally, I am glad that, in the age of the Internet, it is no longer possible to suppress a book. The Hindus is available on Kindle; and if legal means of publication fail, the Internet has other ways of keeping books in circulation. People in India will always be able to read books of all sorts, including some that may offend some Hindus. _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 22:27:41 2014 From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 14 17:27:41 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India by Penguin India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is a link to the copy of the original legal notice sent by Dina Nath Batra to Wendy Doniger: http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?289468 Sad and worried to see the trend of publishers withdrawing scholarly works in the in the face of opposition from a few fringe groups. But as Wendy suggests, in the age of the Internet, it is no longer possible to suppress a book. Regards, Suresh. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca Wed Feb 12 03:34:44 2014 From: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca (Brendan S. Gillon, Prof.) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 03:34:44 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India by Penguin India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In case it might be of interest, the story made the front page of today's Hindustan Times. Cordially yours, Brendan Gillon Brendan S. Gillon email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca Department of Linguistics McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088 H3A 1A7 CANADA webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/ ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Suresh Kolichala [suresh.kolichala at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:27 PM To: jdnarayan at gmail.com Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; indology List List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India by Penguin India Here is a link to the copy of the original legal notice sent by Dina Nath Batra to Wendy Doniger: http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?289468 Sad and worried to see the trend of publishers withdrawing scholarly works in the in the face of opposition from a few fringe groups. But as Wendy suggests, in the age of the Internet, it is no longer possible to suppress a book. Regards, Suresh. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexwatson at fas.harvard.edu Wed Feb 12 05:37:09 2014 From: alexwatson at fas.harvard.edu (Watson, Alex) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 05:37:09 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India by Penguin India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6387956D22BE9F4BA569E78BF85B528D5A9006D2@HARVANDMBX06.fasmail.priv> * STATEMENT BY WENDY DONIGER: * Dear friends, I have had literally hundreds of requests for interviews, in various media, and I can?t do them all. So here is a statement that you may use. I hope it?s enough; it?s the best I can do right now. I intend to write a longer article for publication in a couple of weeks. Yours with gratitude for your courage and compassion, Wendy I was thrilled and moved by the great number of messages of support that I received, not merely from friends and colleagues but from people in India that I have never met, who had read and loved The Hindus, and by news and media people, all of whom expressed their outrage and sadness and their wish to help me in any way they could. I was, of course, angry and disappointed to see this happen, and I am deeply troubled by what it foretells for free speech in India in the present, and steadily worsening, political climate. And as a publisher?s daughter, I particularly wince at the knowledge that the existing books (unless they are bought out quickly by people intrigued by all the brouhaha) will be pulped. But I do not blame Penguin Books, India. Other publishers have just quietly withdrawn other books without making the effort that Penguin made to save this book. Penguin, India, took this book on knowing that it would stir anger in the Hindutva ranks, and they defended it in the courts for four years, both as a civil and as a criminal suit. They were finally defeated by the true villain of this piece?the Indian law that makes it a criminal rather than civil offense to publish a book that offends any Hindu, a law that jeopardizes the physical safety of any publisher, no matter how ludicrous the accusation brought against a book. An example at random, from the lawsuit in question: ?That YOU NOTICEE has hurt the religious feelings of millions of Hindus by declaring that Ramayana is a fiction. ?Placing the Ramayan in its historical contexts demonstrates that it is a work of fiction, created by human authors, who lived at various times..........? (P.662) This breaches section 295A of the Indian Penal Code (IPC). ? Finally, I am glad that, in the age of the Internet, it is no longer possible to suppress a book. The Hindus is available on Kindle; and if legal means of publication fail, the Internet has other ways of keeping books in circulation. People in India will always be able to read books of all sorts, including some that may offend some Hindus. Alex Watson http://harvard.academia.edu/AlexWatson From: Dn Jha > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India by Penguin India Date: 11 February 2014 10:22:46 EST To: Valerie J Roebuck > Cc: Dominik Wujastyk >, indology List List > Reply-To: > We shouln"t expect anything better from Indian Publishers, be it Penguin or any other. They are all spineless. What is still worse, the reaction of the academic community hardly carries any weight. We have seen this in the case of Courtright' book on Ganesh, Laine's book on Shivaji, Ramanujan essay on the Ramayana; examples can be multiplied. In many cases the academics don't even react as I experienced in my own case. They swear by freedom of expression, but the freedom of X becomes superior to the freedom of Y. I am familiar with WendyDoniger's writings which are undoubtedly refreshing and thought provoking and when I read her Hinduism book (Penguin India) I had a feeling that the Sangh Parivar may come out openly against it any time. I will not be surprised if the Parivar repeats performance in the case of her book ON HINDUISM published by the Aleph company last year. Isn't it possible that the Penguin authors mobilise scholars from diferent fields and send a petition-on line to the Publisher. If Peguin does not agree to put the book back into circulation, at least the Penguin authors withdraw their books from them or at least decide not to publish with them in future. This is what some scholars, I am told, did with with Motilal Banarsidass in the case of Courtright's book. D N Jha Former Professor and Chair Department of History University of Delhi jdnarayan at gmail.com -- On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 6:01 PM, Valerie J Roebuck > wrote: Thank you for telling us about this. I am a Penguin India author too, and have emailed them with my concerns. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK On 11 Feb 2014, at 10:14, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: Dear colleagues, I am appalled to learn of yet another book-banning episode in India, this time affecting our colleague Wendy Doniger. Yesterday, if I understand correctly, Penguin India agreed to withdraw the book rather than fight the law case: * http://scroll.in/article/penguin-agrees-to-pulp-us-scholars-book-on-hinduism-on-pressure-from-fundamentalists?id=656104 If you read the five objections offered against the book, they are risible. It beggars belief that any court, much less a publisher, would take objections of this type seriously. As a Penguin Delhi author myself, I shall be writing to Penguin India to protest this dark-ages ruling. Penguin Delhi's contact details are here: http://www.penguinbooksindia.com/en/content/contact-us Dominik Wujastyk University of Vienna _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Wed Feb 12 08:02:17 2014 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 09:02:17 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] language identification (Adam Bowles) > fake languages in literature, Indian and otherwise In-Reply-To: <52FA925F.9060508@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <688DAD46-F1D7-4BCF-A459-24D676A6B714@uclouvain.be> There is the stanza in Utopian script and language in the beginning of More's Utopia, 1516 and 1518 editions (see attached pictures): Vtopos ha Boccas peu la chama polta chamaan Bargol he maglomi baccan soma gymnosophaon Agrama gymnosophon labarem bacha bodamilomin Voluala barchin heman la lauoluola dramme pagloni Latin translation : Vtopus me dux ex non insula fecit insulam Vna ego terrarum omnium absque philosophia Ciuitatem philosophicam expressi mortalibus Libenter impartio mea, non grauatim accipio meliora English translation : ?Utopus, my ruler, converted me, formerly not an island, into an island. Alone of all lands, without the aid of abstract philosophy, I have represented for mortals the philosophical city. Ungrudgingly do I share my benefits with others; undemurringly do I adopt whatever is better from others. For those who are interested in this anecdotic matter I have written in French an essay on this sample of Utopian language, showing that elements of Indian languages could have been used for composing it. The reference is : ?La langue de l??le d?Utopie : les Indes orientales vues des Flandres ? la Renaissance?, Acta Orientalia Belgica 26, 2013, pp. 203-222. A preliminary (2009) e-version of these researches, including images, is still available at: http://belgianindology.blogs.lalibre.be/list/s-b-i-o-library/d-anvers-a-calicut.html Here is a relevant extract of the 2013 article (without the footnotes): M?me si cela servirait notre d?monstration, pour ce qui concerne du moins l??criture elle-m?me on ne suivra donc pas John Duncan M. Derrett quand il soutient que les lettres g ? l ont ? a distinctly South Asian appearance ?, ou que les modifications du cercle de a ? f rappellent l??criture malay??am (du K?rala) ? in their general appearance ?. Pour ce qui est de l?analyse de la langue utopienne du quatrain, en mettant de c?t? l?interpr?tation de celui-ci par les cryptogrammes qu?a propos?e L?on Herrmann (ici hors de propos, quelle que soit sa possible validit?), on reviendra sur les r?sultats de trois analyses d?taill?es qui lui ont ?t? consacr?es. Pour ce faire, il convient de placer en juxtalin?aire les textes latin et utopien ; car manifestement, dans le processus cr?atif, le premier a pr?c?d? le second, qui l??pouse mot ? mot. Vtopus me dux ex non insula fecit insulam Vtopos ha Boccas peu la chama polta chamaan Vna ego terrarum omnium absque philosophia Bargol he maglomi baccan soma gymnosophaon Ciuitatem philosophicam expressi mortalibus Agrama gymnosophon labarem bacha bodamilomin Libenter impartio mea, non grauatim accipio meliora Voluala barchin heman la lauoluola dramme pagloni Des mots sont tr?s clairement d?origine grecque : Vtopos, et la paire gymnosophaon (philosophia) / gymnosophon (philosophicam). Voluala (libenter) a une affinit? avec le latin (uolo). La n?gation la dans peu la (ex non), redoubl?e dans la la-uoluola (non illibenter = non grauatim), est s?mitique (h?breu lo?, aram?en l??, arabe l?). Un syst?me de d?clinaisons est attest? par les alternances chama (abl. insula) / chamaan (acc. insulam), et ha (acc. me) / he (nom. ego) / heman (adj. d?riv?), qui ressemble au pronom personnel grec de la premi?re personne. Les autres rapprochements lexicaux avec le grec sont beaucoup plus hypoth?tiques, de m?me que ceux faits avec le fran?ais et le portugais (Bleiler), l?anglais ou le persan (Pons). Pour cette derni?re langue, Thomas More ?crit pourtant lui-m?me ? propos des Utopiens : Suspicor enim eam gentem a graecis originem duxisse : propterea quod sermo illorum caetera fere Persicus, non nulla graeci sermonis uestigia seruet in urbium ac magistratuum uocabulis. (p. 180 ?d. crit. E. Surtz & J. H. Hexter) C?est la piste indienne, autoris?e par la r?f?rence du texte aux gymnosophistes, qui m?am?ne pour ma part ? oser quelques rapprochements avec le sanskrit, et ? ainsi noter l?importance de la vocalisation en a ; ? voir dans la finale -ta de pol-ta la d?sinence secondaire moyenne de la troisi?me du singulier ; dans agrama un ? non-village ? (a-gr?ma) qui pourrait servir ? d?signer une ? cit? ?, un ? centre urbain ? (cf. Malayalam Lexicon s.v. a-gr?mya : ? not rustic, refined, urban ?) ; dans labarem bacha quelque chose d?un (boiteux) labh?mi (pr?s.) ou abharam (impft.) v?cam ? je prends ? ou ? j?ai port? parole ? ; dans la finale -min de bodamilomin la d?sinence du locatif singulier pronominal de tasmin (renforc? par infixation du locatif malay??am en -il ?) ; dans la finale -e de dramme la d?sinence primaire moyenne de la premi?re personne du singulier; dans la finale -oni de pagloni la d?sinence -?ni du nom.-acc. nt. pluriel th?matique ; et selon le m?me b pour v de bacha pour v?cam, dans le mot bargol et la forme verbale barchin la m?me racine V?J- ? r?server pour soi ?, dont le d?riv? adjectif varja- ifc. signifie ? exempt ?, ? priv? de ?, ? except? ?. Christophe Vielle Le 11 f?vr. 2014 ? 22:13, Richard Salomon a ?crit : > Just for fun, it might be amusing to study and compare such examples of bogus (?) languages in various literatures. For India, an interesting example is the speech of an Indian shipwrecked sailor in a Greek play found among the Oxyrhynchus papyri. Hultzsch (Hermes 39, 1904, pp. 307-311 and JRAS 1904, pp. 309-345) tried to identify it as proto-Kannada, but L.D. Barnett (Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 12, 1926, pp. 13-15) doubted this, and thought that "it might be mere gibberish." > > In English, Shakespeare's All's Well that Ends Well' contains a scene (act IV, scene 1) in which the character speak a mysterious language in order to trick the villain Parolles into a confession. The language sounds suspiciously like Italian and/or Latin: > First Soldier > Boskos vauvado: I understand thee, and can speak > thy tongue. Kerely bonto, sir, betake thee to thy > faith, for seventeen poniards are at thy bosom. > PAROLLES > O! > First Soldier > O, pray, pray, pray! Manka revania dulche > Second Lord > Oscorbidulchos volivorco. > > But here the language is intentionally fake, so it is a different case from the one under discussion. There must be many more examples of both types, if anyone wants to waste some time... > > Richard Salomon > > > > On 2/11/2014 2:59 AM, C.A. Formigatti wrote: >> Dear Dr Bowles, >> >> At least a part of the last quote is in Italian, but written with a >> funny English orthography: >> >> ?_Sat tu sicurah da non lasharay andarah, guescha bect-cha, liberal dubo >> toto suferanza. >> >> Sei tu sicura di non lasciare andare questa vecchia, liberala da tutta >> [la] sofferenza >> >> The translation 'Death to you; death by terrible torture' etc. doesn't >> correspond to the Italian, which means 'Are you sure you want to release >> this old woman, free her from [the] suffering' or something in this >> direction (the last part is a little bit strange). >> >> I hope I've been able to help you! >> >> Camillo Formigatti >> >> >> On 2014-02-11 10:15, indology-request at list.indology.info wrote: >>> Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to >>> indology at list.indology.info >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info >>> >>> >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> indology-request at list.indology.info >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. language identification (Adam Bowles) >>> 2. Whish Collection! (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) >>> 3. Re: language identification (Valerie J Roebuck) >>> 4. Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India by Penguin >>> India (Dominik Wujastyk) >>> >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> A colleague who is not a member of this list has requested assistance >>> with the following query: >>> >>>> I'm editing for a fairly soon publication a play (William Archer's >>>> _The Green Goddess_) which has simple short bits of dialogue in a >>>> foreign language, unidentified. The play is a melodrama set in a >>>> remote place in the north-western Himalayas, north of and so outside >>>> of the then British-ruled areas (the play's writing date is 1920). I >>>> have the TS prompt book used by JCW for their Australian production >>>> in 1924, but of course though that gives bits of dialogue in this >>>> language, and provide translations into English, the script doesn't >>>> identify what language they are using. It is not Hindustani, that is >>>> made clear, though that is also used here and there. >>>> >>>> Here are a few samples from the TS along with the translations: >>> >>>> ?_Unkeitha hu_!? (They are alive!); ?_Hub sa jumphti odt, hu >>>> keitha_!? (Two of them are alive, at least); ?_Un nukkha jan >>>> ru_!? (They are not killed); ?_Guth, baith un pai hai dosha!_? >>>> (Back, they may have the Evil Eye). >>>> >>>> The Priest?s explanation is given: ?_Kha hai Adythum_? (This >>>> is her temple). ?_Au ka jahah kaman sa gulbia_? (She beckoned >>>> your ship out of the sky). ?_Kha main tha hunthal Maharaj ka_? >>>> (The land is ruled by our Raja). ?_Go hai nuxman_? (That is the >>>> palace there). ?_Ha khaja un ka hasthi_? (I have sent for him). >>>> ?_Kumajo heinga dha_? (He will be here soon). >>>> >>>> Traherne is introduced ?blindfold? and the High (Chief) Priest >>>> curses Traherne: ?_Sat tu sicurah da non lasharay andarah, guescha >>>> bect-cha, liberal dubo toto suferanza. Kay sat ychi; kay sat >>>> ychi_? (Death to you; death by terrible torture. You pollute our >>>> sacred temple. The Great Roc found you. It brought you here. Death, >>>> suffering, the curse of the Green Goddess be on you). >>>> >>>> I rather suspect the 'liberal dubo toto suferanza' phrase: it sounds >>>> like a kind of esperanto pidgin slipped in for audience >>>> comprehension. But I believe the rest to be a genuine local >>>> language. Pahari? >>>> >>>> any help in this would be most appreciated and of course >>>> acknowledged in its site of publication: the Manchester UP journal >>>> _Nineteenth Century Film and Theatre._ >>> >>> If anyone has any insight to offer, please email Professor Veronica >>> Kelly at v.kelly at uq.edu.au. Any assistance would be greatly >>> appreciated. >>> >>> Best >>> Adam Bowles >>> >>> The University of Queensland >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info > > -- > ---------------------- > > Richard Salomon > Department of Asian Languages and Literature > University of Washington, Box 353521 > Seattle WA 98195-3521 > USA > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve Editor, Publications de l'Institut Orientaliste de Louvain series - Last Indological issues: PIOL nos 53, 60, 63, 64 - Still available: Mah?praj??p?ramit???stra (vols 1-2-3-4-5), Asa?ga's Mah?y?nasa?graha, Vimalak?rtinirde?a, Lamotte's History of Indian Buddhism, etc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elisa.freschi at gmail.com Wed Feb 12 08:03:44 2014 From: elisa.freschi at gmail.com (elisa freschi) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 09:03:44 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 5th Coffee Break Conference (Rome, 22-24 May 2014) Message-ID: <041AE4A4-527D-4E70-8E22-FDEACC66EC9B@gmail.com> Dear friends and respected colleagues, in case you are considering to visit Rome this Spring, here is an additional reason for doing it: A Coffee Break Conference on Space, culture, language and politics in South Asia: common patterns and local distinctions Rome, Institute of Oriental Studies, University "Sapienza", 22-24 May 2014 About the CBCs in general The Coffee Break Conference (CBC) project is the result of a larger reflection on the common sensical statement that "the most interesting parts of a conference are the coffee breaks". One yawns or falls asleep while most papers are read ? apart from a couple of them and one's own one. By contrast, one often takes part of challenging and fascinating debates while sipping at a cup of tea or coffee. Often, the same papers sound thought-provoking and insightful during the breaks, and extremely boring while they are actually read. Therefore, what a "coffee break conference" aims at is to leave behind the rigidity and formality of the official academic and scholarly meetings and to favour an open-minded exchange of ideas, suggestions, discussions and criticisms, within the spirit of a friendly dialogue held in an informal atmosphere. About this conference in particular Panels: 1. Towards branch-crossing isoglosses in Indo-European (organised by Artermij Keidan) 2. Theatrical and ritual boundaries in South Asia (organised by Elisa Ganser) 3. Untying the knot: Tracing local elements within cultural phenomena in South Asia (organised by Cristina Bignami and Elena Mucciarelli) 4. Final Round Table on Space, culture, language and politics in South Asia: common patterns and local distinctions (chaired by Elisa Freschi) Further informations can be found here: http://asiatica.wikispaces.com/2014+CONFERENCE+IN+ROME Theoretically the calls for papers are closed, but, given the openness and informality of the Coffee Break Conferences, interested speakers are still welcome. Just email the organisers of the panel or the general organisers (i.e., artemij.keidan at uniroma1.it and myself, elisa.freschi at oeaw.ac.at). Best, elisa freschi Dr. Elisa Freschi Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia Austrian Academy of Sciences Apostelgasse 23 1030 Vienna Austria Phone +43 1 51581 6433 Fax +43 1 51581 6410 http://elisafreschi.com http://oeaw.academia.edu/elisafreschi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dchakra at hotmail.de Wed Feb 12 08:56:32 2014 From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 14:26:32 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Paul Cremer, Rabindranath Tagore (Sonntagsbeilage der Vossischtn Zeitung vom 18. Januar 1914) Message-ID: Dear All,I am looking for the following, but failed to have any trace of it in the internet:Paul Cremer, Rabindranath Tagore (Sonntagsbeilage der Vossischtn Zeitung vom 18. Januar 1914)I would like to know whether the following poem was published in the newspapers Sunday Special, and what ought to be its original in English. ?'Menschlicher Wesen Myriaden, Die diesen Erdball bewohnen. Kommen zu mir in das Herz, Wahrhafte Freude zu finden In gegenseit'ger Gesellschaft: Liebende treten dort ein. Blicken einander ins Auge, Kinderlein stehen und lachen. Fr?hlich ergl?nzen die Wangen. Voll ist mein Herz bis zum Rande, Voll von erhabener Freude, Und ich gewahre auf Erden Nicht eine einzige Seele. Kann es wohl anders auch sein, Da in mein Herz alle Seelen Eintraten, Wohnung zu nehmen ?'< RegardsDebabrata Chakrabarti ?This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.? ? Anandamayi Ma ?Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.? - Paracelsus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl Wed Feb 12 09:32:46 2014 From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 09:32:46 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Paul Cremer, Rabindranath Tagore (Sonntagsbeilage der Vossischtn Zeitung vom 18. Januar 1914) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The German poem is metrical. Is it possible that it is a poem inspired by Tagore but not one by Tagore himself. in other words: is the poem an original German poem written by this Paul Cremer after having read Tagore's poems. The Cremer text does seem to show a monistic tendency which is not so prominent in Tagore's own writings of that period. Yours Victor van Bijlert ________________________________ Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert Associate professor Religious Studies Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions Faculty of Theology, VU University De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl +31613184203 ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti [dchakra at hotmail.de] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:56 AM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Paul Cremer, Rabindranath Tagore (Sonntagsbeilage der Vossischtn Zeitung vom 18. Januar 1914) Dear All, I am looking for the following, but failed to have any trace of it in the internet: Paul Cremer, Rabindranath Tagore (Sonntagsbeilage der Vossischtn Zeitung vom 18. Januar 1914) I would like to know whether the following poem was published in the newspapers Sunday Special, and what ought to be its original in English. ?'Menschlicher Wesen Myriaden, Die diesen Erdball bewohnen. Kommen zu mir in das Herz, Wahrhafte Freude zu finden In gegenseit'ger Gesellschaft: Liebende treten dort ein. Blicken einander ins Auge, Kinderlein stehen und lachen. Fr?hlich ergl?nzen die Wangen. Voll ist mein Herz bis zum Rande, Voll von erhabener Freude, Und ich gewahre auf Erden Nicht eine einzige Seele. Kann es wohl anders auch sein, Da in mein Herz alle Seelen Eintraten, Wohnung zu nehmen ?'< Regards Debabrata Chakrabarti ?This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.? ? Anandamayi Ma ?Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.? - Paracelsus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Feb 12 10:30:29 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 11:30:29 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is very interesting, Tim. Thank you! So the laws are aimed at punishing deliberately provocative offences that are explicitly designed to promote communal or religious disharmony. The laws are not framed in a manner that depends on the assertion of a member of a community that their feelings have been hurt or they have been offended. I would have thought that it would be trivially easy to demonstrate under these laws that *The Hindus: An Alternative History* was not published as a deliberate act of communal provocation. Why did Penguin India feel cornered? Best, Dominik Wujastyk -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies , University of Vienna, Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria and Adjunct Professor, Division of Health and Humanities, St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. Project | home page| HSSA | PGP On 11 February 2014 22:25, Lubin, Tim wrote: > Article 295A was inserted in 1927 through passage of the Criminal Law > Amendment Act (Act 25 of 1927), and the wording revised (the part bracketed > with note 7: "by signs" and "or otherwise" added) in 1961. > > This circumstances of this legislation were described in 1934 by Sir H. > P. Dastur, Chief Presidency Magistrate of Bombay, in his ruling on a the > "Reason Case" (1933), a blasphemy case against a rationalist for his > articles in a periodical called "Reason" (the case was dismissed as not > falling under the terms of 295A because the author's intent was not > malicious -- the same may be said of Prof. Doniger!): > > "Section 295-A....was introduced by the Criminal Law Amendment Act 25 of > 1927 in consequence of the decision..in what is known as the Rangila Rasul > case, in which it was held that section 153-A was not meant to stop > polemics against a deceased religious leader however scurrilous and in bad > taste such attacks may be. > > "Any criticism, and particularly a vigorous criticism, of any religious > belief is bound to hurt or insult the religious feelings of the class of > people professing that faith... > > "As however, that would stifle all honest attempts to introduce social > reforms, Legislature has not made a mere intent to insult the religious > feelings of any class of His Majesty's subjects, penal under this section. > It requires that that should be deliberate intention of the writer and ... > "malicious".... " > (The Rangila Rasul case had to do with scurrilous pamphlet about the > Prophet Muhammad and his wives? see: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangila_Rasul ) > > Article 153A, cited here, is as follows: > > 153A. 1[ Promoting enmity between different groups on ground of > religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, etc., and doing acts > prejudicial to maintenance of harmony.-- > (1) Whoever- > (a) by words, either spoken or > written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise, promotes > or attempts to promote, on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, > residence, language, caste or community or any other ground whatsoever, > disharmony or feelings of enmity, hatred or ill- will between different > religious, racials, language or regional groups or castes or communities, > or > (b) commits any act which is > prejudicial to the maintenance of harmony between different religious, > racial, language or regional groups or castes or communities, and which > disturbs or is likely to disturb the public tranquillity, 2[ or] > (c) 2[ organizes any exercise, > movement, drill or other similar activity intending that the participants > in such activity shall use or be trained to use criminal force or violence > or knowing it to be likely that the participants in such activity will use > or be trained to use criminal force or violence, or participates in such > activity intending to use or be trained to use criminal force or violence > or knowing it to be likely that the participants in such activity will use > or be trained to use criminal force or violence, against any religious, > racial, language or regional group or caste or community and such activity > for any reason whatsoever causes or is likely to cause fear or alarm or a > feeling of insecurity amongst members of such religious, racial, language > or regional group or caste or community,] shall be punished with > imprisonment which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both. > (2) Offence committed in place of > worship, etc.-- Whoever commits an offence specified in sub- section (1) in > any place of worship or in any assembly engaged in the performance of > religious worship or religious ceremonies, shall be punished with > imprisonment which may extend to five years and shall also be liable to > fine.] > > Tim > > Timothy Lubin > Professor of Religion > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > > http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 > > > > > > From: Dominik Wujastyk > Date: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 3:43 PM > To: George Thompson > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger > > Dear George, > > At first I was furious with Penguin India, but having read Wendy's > account of how they fought for her book, I have revised my opinion. I > learned with astonishment about the Indian law that criminalizes the > publisher of a book that causes offence to any Hindu. It is simply > incredible, as a piece of law. > > So, I think Wendy is probably right, and the culprit is the Indian Penal > Code. > > http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1803184/ : > Central Government Act > Section 295A in The Indian Penal Code, 1860 > 295A. 5[ Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious > feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs.-- > Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious > feelings of any class of 6[ citizens of India], 7[ by words, either spoken > or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise] insults > or attempts to insult the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, > shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which > may extend to 8[ three years], or with fine, or with both.] > > I am no historian of law. But this looks to me as though it was framed > by the British administration, shortly after the Rebellion. > > However inappropriate the application of this law to modern scholarly > publishing, I remain incredulous that the court decided that it could be > established that Wendy showed "deliberate and malicious intention of > outraging the religious feeling." > > I am not sure what action would be appropriate in this case. In the > USA, a petition against the book was signed by 10k people. Again, I > suppose we could try a petition, but it would not make any difference, and > the number of indologists is smaller by several orders than the number of > Hindus. > > I think the deeper issue here is the fact that an ignorant person (or > persons) who does not have sufficient specialist education to understand a > particular book is nevertheless able to bring a case that is taken > seriously by an Indian court and leads to the banning of that book. > Imagine an uneducated farmer taking exception to the work of a nuclear > physicist. Would a court say that the physicist should not do his research > or publish his findings? > > Best, > Dominik > > > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies > , > University of Vienna, > Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 > 1090 Vienna, Austria > and > Adjunct Professor, > Division of Health and Humanities, > St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. > Project | home page| > HSSA | PGP > > > > > > On 11 February 2014 20:55, George Thompson wrote: > >> Dear Dominik et al., >> >> Given Wendy's defense of Penguin India, what other alternatives are >> available to those of us who are Penguin India authors? >> >> George >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 2:09 PM, George Thompson wrote: >> >>> Dear Dominik et al., >>> >>> Given Wendy's defense of Penguin India, what other alternatives are >>> available to those of us who are Penguin India auth >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >>> >>>> I am pleased to circulate the following statement at Wendy Doniger's >>>> request: >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Dear friends, I have had literally hundreds of requests for interviews, >>>> in various >>>> media, and I can?t do them all. So here is a statement that you may >>>> use. I hope >>>> it?s enough; it?s the best I can do right now. I intend to write a >>>> longer article for >>>> publication in a couple of weeks. Yours with gratitude for your courage >>>> and >>>> compassion, wendy >>>> >>>> >>>> I was thrilled and moved by the great number of messages of support >>>> that I >>>> received, not merely from friends and colleagues but from people in >>>> India that I >>>> have never met, who had read and loved The Hindus, and by news and media >>>> people, all of whom expressed their outrage and sadness and their wish >>>> to help >>>> me in any way they could. I was, of course, angry and disappointed to >>>> see this >>>> happen, and I am deeply troubled by what it foretells for free speech >>>> in India in >>>> the present, and steadily worsening, political climate. And as a >>>> publisher?s >>>> daughter, I particularly wince at the knowledge that the existing books >>>> (unless >>>> they are bought out quickly by people intrigued by all the brouhaha) >>>> will be >>>> pulped. But I do not blame Penguin Books, India. Other publishers have >>>> just >>>> quietly withdrawn other books without making the effort that Penguin >>>> made to >>>> save this book. Penguin, India, took this book on knowing that it would >>>> stir >>>> anger in the Hindutva ranks, and they defended it in the courts for >>>> four years, >>>> both as a civil and as a criminal suit. >>>> >>>> They were finally defeated by the true villain of this piece?the Indian >>>> law >>>> that makes it a criminal rather than civil offense to publish a book >>>> that offends >>>> any Hindu, a law that jeopardizes the physical safety of any publisher, >>>> no matter >>>> how ludicrous the accusation brought against a book. An example at >>>> random, >>>> from the lawsuit in question: >>>> >>>> ?That YOU NOTICEE has hurt the religious feelings of millions of >>>> Hindus by >>>> declaring that Ramayana is a fiction. ?Placing the Ramayan in its >>>> historical >>>> contexts demonstrates that it is a work of fiction, created by human >>>> authors, who >>>> lived at various times???.? (P.662) This breaches section 295A of the >>>> Indian >>>> Penal Code (IPC). ? >>>> >>>> Finally, I am glad that, in the age of the Internet, it is no longer >>>> possible to >>>> suppress a book. The Hindus is available on Kindle; and if legal means >>>> of >>>> publication fail, the Internet has other ways of keeping books in >>>> circulation. >>>> >>>> People in India will always be able to read books of all sorts, >>>> including some that >>>> may offend some Hindus. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>>> >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Feb 12 10:40:55 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 11:40:55 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The English of the legal/demand noticeis generally poor. But in particular, what's all this "you noticee"? Is that just an error for "your noticee," or is it legal jargon? I've never seen it before, and I find no other references to the phrase anywhere on the internet (Google). Is it meant to be a vocative, addressing the recipients of the notice? I think it would be worthwhile at some point to go through this legal/demand notice and refute the points one by one. They are mostly rather easy to knock down, as far as I can see. Best, Dominik Wujastyk -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies , University of Vienna, Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria and Adjunct Professor, Division of Health and Humanities, St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. Project | home page| HSSA | PGP On 12 February 2014 11:30, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > This is very interesting, Tim. Thank you! > > So the laws are aimed at punishing deliberately provocative offences that > are explicitly designed to promote communal or religious disharmony. The > laws are not framed in a manner that depends on the assertion of a member > of a community that their feelings have been hurt or they have been > offended. > > I would have thought that it would be trivially easy to demonstrate under > these laws that *The Hindus: An Alternative History* was not published as > a deliberate act of communal provocation. Why did Penguin India feel > cornered? > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > > > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies > , > University of Vienna, > Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 > 1090 Vienna, Austria > and > Adjunct Professor, > Division of Health and Humanities, > St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. > Project | home page| > HSSA | PGP > > > > > > On 11 February 2014 22:25, Lubin, Tim wrote: > >> Article 295A was inserted in 1927 through passage of the Criminal Law >> Amendment Act (Act 25 of 1927), and the wording revised (the part bracketed >> with note 7: "by signs" and "or otherwise" added) in 1961. >> >> This circumstances of this legislation were described in 1934 by Sir H. >> P. Dastur, Chief Presidency Magistrate of Bombay, in his ruling on a the >> "Reason Case" (1933), a blasphemy case against a rationalist for his >> articles in a periodical called "Reason" (the case was dismissed as not >> falling under the terms of 295A because the author's intent was not >> malicious -- the same may be said of Prof. Doniger!): >> >> "Section 295-A....was introduced by the Criminal Law Amendment Act 25 >> of 1927 in consequence of the decision..in what is known as the Rangila >> Rasul case, in which it was held that section 153-A was not meant to stop >> polemics against a deceased religious leader however scurrilous and in bad >> taste such attacks may be. >> >> "Any criticism, and particularly a vigorous criticism, of any religious >> belief is bound to hurt or insult the religious feelings of the class of >> people professing that faith... >> >> "As however, that would stifle all honest attempts to introduce social >> reforms, Legislature has not made a mere intent to insult the religious >> feelings of any class of His Majesty's subjects, penal under this section. >> It requires that that should be deliberate intention of the writer and ... >> "malicious".... " >> (The Rangila Rasul case had to do with scurrilous pamphlet about the >> Prophet Muhammad and his wives? see: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangila_Rasul ) >> >> Article 153A, cited here, is as follows: >> >> 153A. 1[ Promoting enmity between different groups on ground of >> religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, etc., and doing acts >> prejudicial to maintenance of harmony.-- >> (1) Whoever- >> (a) by words, either spoken or >> written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise, promotes >> or attempts to promote, on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, >> residence, language, caste or community or any other ground whatsoever, >> disharmony or feelings of enmity, hatred or ill- will between different >> religious, racials, language or regional groups or castes or communities, >> or >> (b) commits any act which is >> prejudicial to the maintenance of harmony between different religious, >> racial, language or regional groups or castes or communities, and which >> disturbs or is likely to disturb the public tranquillity, 2[ or] >> (c) 2[ organizes any exercise, >> movement, drill or other similar activity intending that the participants >> in such activity shall use or be trained to use criminal force or violence >> or knowing it to be likely that the participants in such activity will use >> or be trained to use criminal force or violence, or participates in such >> activity intending to use or be trained to use criminal force or violence >> or knowing it to be likely that the participants in such activity will use >> or be trained to use criminal force or violence, against any religious, >> racial, language or regional group or caste or community and such activity >> for any reason whatsoever causes or is likely to cause fear or alarm or a >> feeling of insecurity amongst members of such religious, racial, language >> or regional group or caste or community,] shall be punished with >> imprisonment which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both. >> (2) Offence committed in place of >> worship, etc.-- Whoever commits an offence specified in sub- section (1) in >> any place of worship or in any assembly engaged in the performance of >> religious worship or religious ceremonies, shall be punished with >> imprisonment which may extend to five years and shall also be liable to >> fine.] >> >> Tim >> >> Timothy Lubin >> Professor of Religion >> Washington and Lee University >> Lexington, Virginia 24450 >> >> http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint >> http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin >> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Dominik Wujastyk >> Date: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 3:43 PM >> To: George Thompson >> Cc: Indology >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger >> >> Dear George, >> >> At first I was furious with Penguin India, but having read Wendy's >> account of how they fought for her book, I have revised my opinion. I >> learned with astonishment about the Indian law that criminalizes the >> publisher of a book that causes offence to any Hindu. It is simply >> incredible, as a piece of law. >> >> So, I think Wendy is probably right, and the culprit is the Indian >> Penal Code. >> >> http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1803184/ : >> Central Government Act >> Section 295A in The Indian Penal Code, 1860 >> 295A. 5[ Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious >> feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs.-- >> Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious >> feelings of any class of 6[ citizens of India], 7[ by words, either spoken >> or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise] insults >> or attempts to insult the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, >> shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which >> may extend to 8[ three years], or with fine, or with both.] >> >> I am no historian of law. But this looks to me as though it was framed >> by the British administration, shortly after the Rebellion. >> >> However inappropriate the application of this law to modern scholarly >> publishing, I remain incredulous that the court decided that it could be >> established that Wendy showed "deliberate and malicious intention of >> outraging the religious feeling." >> >> I am not sure what action would be appropriate in this case. In the >> USA, a petition against the book was signed by 10k people. Again, I >> suppose we could try a petition, but it would not make any difference, and >> the number of indologists is smaller by several orders than the number of >> Hindus. >> >> I think the deeper issue here is the fact that an ignorant person (or >> persons) who does not have sufficient specialist education to understand a >> particular book is nevertheless able to bring a case that is taken >> seriously by an Indian court and leads to the banning of that book. >> Imagine an uneducated farmer taking exception to the work of a nuclear >> physicist. Would a court say that the physicist should not do his research >> or publish his findings? >> >> Best, >> Dominik >> >> >> -- >> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >> Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies >> , >> University of Vienna, >> Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 >> 1090 Vienna, Austria >> and >> Adjunct Professor, >> Division of Health and Humanities, >> St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, >> India. >> Project | home page| >> HSSA | PGP >> >> >> >> >> >> On 11 February 2014 20:55, George Thompson wrote: >> >>> Dear Dominik et al., >>> >>> Given Wendy's defense of Penguin India, what other alternatives are >>> available to those of us who are Penguin India authors? >>> >>> George >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 2:09 PM, George Thompson wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Dominik et al., >>>> >>>> Given Wendy's defense of Penguin India, what other alternatives are >>>> available to those of us who are Penguin India auth >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Dominik Wujastyk >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> I am pleased to circulate the following statement at Wendy >>>>> Doniger's request: >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Dear friends, I have had literally hundreds of requests for >>>>> interviews, in various >>>>> media, and I can?t do them all. So here is a statement that you may >>>>> use. I hope >>>>> it?s enough; it?s the best I can do right now. I intend to write a >>>>> longer article for >>>>> publication in a couple of weeks. Yours with gratitude for your >>>>> courage and >>>>> compassion, wendy >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was thrilled and moved by the great number of messages of support >>>>> that I >>>>> received, not merely from friends and colleagues but from people in >>>>> India that I >>>>> have never met, who had read and loved The Hindus, and by news and >>>>> media >>>>> people, all of whom expressed their outrage and sadness and their wish >>>>> to help >>>>> me in any way they could. I was, of course, angry and disappointed to >>>>> see this >>>>> happen, and I am deeply troubled by what it foretells for free speech >>>>> in India in >>>>> the present, and steadily worsening, political climate. And as a >>>>> publisher?s >>>>> daughter, I particularly wince at the knowledge that the existing >>>>> books (unless >>>>> they are bought out quickly by people intrigued by all the brouhaha) >>>>> will be >>>>> pulped. But I do not blame Penguin Books, India. Other publishers have >>>>> just >>>>> quietly withdrawn other books without making the effort that Penguin >>>>> made to >>>>> save this book. Penguin, India, took this book on knowing that it >>>>> would stir >>>>> anger in the Hindutva ranks, and they defended it in the courts for >>>>> four years, >>>>> both as a civil and as a criminal suit. >>>>> >>>>> They were finally defeated by the true villain of this piece?the >>>>> Indian law >>>>> that makes it a criminal rather than civil offense to publish a book >>>>> that offends >>>>> any Hindu, a law that jeopardizes the physical safety of any >>>>> publisher, no matter >>>>> how ludicrous the accusation brought against a book. An example at >>>>> random, >>>>> from the lawsuit in question: >>>>> >>>>> ?That YOU NOTICEE has hurt the religious feelings of millions of >>>>> Hindus by >>>>> declaring that Ramayana is a fiction. ?Placing the Ramayan in its >>>>> historical >>>>> contexts demonstrates that it is a work of fiction, created by human >>>>> authors, who >>>>> lived at various times???.? (P.662) This breaches section 295A of >>>>> the Indian >>>>> Penal Code (IPC). ? >>>>> >>>>> Finally, I am glad that, in the age of the Internet, it is no longer >>>>> possible to >>>>> suppress a book. The Hindus is available on Kindle; and if legal means >>>>> of >>>>> publication fail, the Internet has other ways of keeping books in >>>>> circulation. >>>>> >>>>> People in India will always be able to read books of all sorts, >>>>> including some that >>>>> may offend some Hindus. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl Wed Feb 12 10:43:24 2014 From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 10:43:24 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perhaps as an unrelated but interesting piece of information for everyone, including sympathisers with the Sangh Parivar: the IPC, Indian Penal Code, on the basis of which this case is conducted, was drafted by none other than the notorious lord Macaulay. The same colonial law is still in force even if with some amendments. If I'm given a little time I can dig up the relevant articles. Yours ________________________________ Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert Associate professor Religious Studies Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions Faculty of Theology, VU University De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl +31613184203 ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Dominik Wujastyk [wujastyk at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:30 AM To: Lubin, Tim Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger This is very interesting, Tim. Thank you! So the laws are aimed at punishing deliberately provocative offences that are explicitly designed to promote communal or religious disharmony. The laws are not framed in a manner that depends on the assertion of a member of a community that their feelings have been hurt or they have been offended. I would have thought that it would be trivially easy to demonstrate under these laws that The Hindus: An Alternative History was not published as a deliberate act of communal provocation. Why did Penguin India feel cornered? Best, Dominik Wujastyk -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, University of Vienna, Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria and Adjunct Professor, Division of Health and Humanities, St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. Project | home page | HSSA | PGP On 11 February 2014 22:25, Lubin, Tim > wrote: Article 295A was inserted in 1927 through passage of the Criminal Law Amendment Act (Act 25 of 1927), and the wording revised (the part bracketed with note 7: "by signs" and "or otherwise" added) in 1961. This circumstances of this legislation were described in 1934 by Sir H. P. Dastur, Chief Presidency Magistrate of Bombay, in his ruling on a the "Reason Case" (1933), a blasphemy case against a rationalist for his articles in a periodical called "Reason" (the case was dismissed as not falling under the terms of 295A because the author's intent was not malicious -- the same may be said of Prof. Doniger!): "Section 295-A....was introduced by the Criminal Law Amendment Act 25 of 1927 in consequence of the decision..in what is known as the Rangila Rasul case, in which it was held that section 153-A was not meant to stop polemics against a deceased religious leader however scurrilous and in bad taste such attacks may be. "Any criticism, and particularly a vigorous criticism, of any religious belief is bound to hurt or insult the religious feelings of the class of people professing that faith... "As however, that would stifle all honest attempts to introduce social reforms, Legislature has not made a mere intent to insult the religious feelings of any class of His Majesty's subjects, penal under this section. It requires that that should be deliberate intention of the writer and ... "malicious".... " (The Rangila Rasul case had to do with scurrilous pamphlet about the Prophet Muhammad and his wives? see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangila_Rasul ) Article 153A, cited here, is as follows: 153A. 1[ Promoting enmity between different groups on ground of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, etc., and doing acts prejudicial to maintenance of harmony.-- (1) Whoever- (a) by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise, promotes or attempts to promote, on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste or community or any other ground whatsoever, disharmony or feelings of enmity, hatred or ill- will between different religious, racials, language or regional groups or castes or communities, or (b) commits any act which is prejudicial to the maintenance of harmony between different religious, racial, language or regional groups or castes or communities, and which disturbs or is likely to disturb the public tranquillity, 2[ or] (c) 2[ organizes any exercise, movement, drill or other similar activity intending that the participants in such activity shall use or be trained to use criminal force or violence or knowing it to be likely that the participants in such activity will use or be trained to use criminal force or violence, or participates in such activity intending to use or be trained to use criminal force or violence or knowing it to be likely that the participants in such activity will use or be trained to use criminal force or violence, against any religious, racial, language or regional group or caste or community and such activity for any reason whatsoever causes or is likely to cause fear or alarm or a feeling of insecurity amongst members of such religious, racial, language or regional group or caste or community,] shall be punished with imprisonment which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both. (2) Offence committed in place of worship, etc.-- Whoever commits an offence specified in sub- section (1) in any place of worship or in any assembly engaged in the performance of religious worship or religious ceremonies, shall be punished with imprisonment which may extend to five years and shall also be liable to fine.] Tim Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 From: Dominik Wujastyk > Date: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 3:43 PM To: George Thompson > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger Dear George, At first I was furious with Penguin India, but having read Wendy's account of how they fought for her book, I have revised my opinion. I learned with astonishment about the Indian law that criminalizes the publisher of a book that causes offence to any Hindu. It is simply incredible, as a piece of law. So, I think Wendy is probably right, and the culprit is the Indian Penal Code. http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1803184/ : Central Government Act Section 295A in The Indian Penal Code, 1860 295A. 5[ Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs.-- Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feelings of any class of 6[ citizens of India], 7[ by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise] insults or attempts to insult the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to 8[ three years], or with fine, or with both.] I am no historian of law. But this looks to me as though it was framed by the British administration, shortly after the Rebellion. However inappropriate the application of this law to modern scholarly publishing, I remain incredulous that the court decided that it could be established that Wendy showed "deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feeling." I am not sure what action would be appropriate in this case. In the USA, a petition against the book was signed by 10k people. Again, I suppose we could try a petition, but it would not make any difference, and the number of indologists is smaller by several orders than the number of Hindus. I think the deeper issue here is the fact that an ignorant person (or persons) who does not have sufficient specialist education to understand a particular book is nevertheless able to bring a case that is taken seriously by an Indian court and leads to the banning of that book. Imagine an uneducated farmer taking exception to the work of a nuclear physicist. Would a court say that the physicist should not do his research or publish his findings? Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, University of Vienna, Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria and Adjunct Professor, Division of Health and Humanities, St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. Project | home page | HSSA | PGP On 11 February 2014 20:55, George Thompson > wrote: Dear Dominik et al., Given Wendy's defense of Penguin India, what other alternatives are available to those of us who are Penguin India authors? George On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 2:09 PM, George Thompson > wrote: Dear Dominik et al., Given Wendy's defense of Penguin India, what other alternatives are available to those of us who are Penguin India auth On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: I am pleased to circulate the following statement at Wendy Doniger's request: -------------------------------------- Dear friends, I have had literally hundreds of requests for interviews, in various media, and I can?t do them all. So here is a statement that you may use. I hope it?s enough; it?s the best I can do right now. I intend to write a longer article for publication in a couple of weeks. Yours with gratitude for your courage and compassion, wendy I was thrilled and moved by the great number of messages of support that I received, not merely from friends and colleagues but from people in India that I have never met, who had read and loved The Hindus, and by news and media people, all of whom expressed their outrage and sadness and their wish to help me in any way they could. I was, of course, angry and disappointed to see this happen, and I am deeply troubled by what it foretells for free speech in India in the present, and steadily worsening, political climate. And as a publisher?s daughter, I particularly wince at the knowledge that the existing books (unless they are bought out quickly by people intrigued by all the brouhaha) will be pulped. But I do not blame Penguin Books, India. Other publishers have just quietly withdrawn other books without making the effort that Penguin made to save this book. Penguin, India, took this book on knowing that it would stir anger in the Hindutva ranks, and they defended it in the courts for four years, both as a civil and as a criminal suit. They were finally defeated by the true villain of this piece?the Indian law that makes it a criminal rather than civil offense to publish a book that offends any Hindu, a law that jeopardizes the physical safety of any publisher, no matter how ludicrous the accusation brought against a book. An example at random, from the lawsuit in question: ?That YOU NOTICEE has hurt the religious feelings of millions of Hindus by declaring that Ramayana is a fiction. ?Placing the Ramayan in its historical contexts demonstrates that it is a work of fiction, created by human authors, who lived at various times???.? (P.662) This breaches section 295A of the Indian Penal Code (IPC). ? Finally, I am glad that, in the age of the Internet, it is no longer possible to suppress a book. The Hindus is available on Kindle; and if legal means of publication fail, the Internet has other ways of keeping books in circulation. People in India will always be able to read books of all sorts, including some that may offend some Hindus. _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From manufrancis at gmail.com Wed Feb 12 14:07:35 2014 From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 15:07:35 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Illustrated Kamasutra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many thanks to Herman, Lars and Dominik for their comments and suggestions. Wonderful pictures from the Wellcome Library! Best wishes. -- Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Manu Francis wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I have been asked by a colleague, without being able to provide a clear > answer, about the date of the earliest Kamasutra manuscripts with erotic > illustrations or simply erotic illustrations derived from the Kamasutra. > Has anybody ideas and, even better, references to share? > > With very best wishes. > > Emmanuel Francis > Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud > (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) > http://ceias.ehess.fr/ > http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 > http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ > Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, > Universit?t Hamburg) > http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ssandahl at sympatico.ca Wed Feb 12 15:20:12 2014 From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 10:20:12 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Mock languages In-Reply-To: <05ACE597-8C16-4051-B3BB-C555A8FC68D0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: > From: Stella Sandahl > Subject: Mock languages > Date: 12 February, 2014 10:15:36 AM EST > To: Indology > > Dear colleagues, > It may amuse you to learn that there exists in Sweden a mock language called transpiranto. It started in 1929 in a satirical weekly called Gr?nk?pings Veckoblad (Gronkoping stands for any ridiculous provincial town). It is still published. Famous poems are 'translated' into transpiranto. The very famous - and serious - Swedish poet Gunnar Ekelof used to 'translate' his own poems into transpiranto and publish them in Gr?nk?pings Veckoblad. > Here's a list of titles with transpiranto-translation: > 'Ack, du min moder/Eja, maj mutter, GV 9/2012 > Afton, o hur sk?n/ Soar?, wie ball, GV 7/2002 > Aftonklockorna/Najtgonggongs, ?B 87 > Aftontankar vid Fridas ruta/Soar?pensum an Frida?s qvadrat, ?B 95 > Alla f?glar kommit re?n/Tutti pippoj, GV 4/95 > Arbetets s?ner/Filoj di knego, GV 4/97 > > Barndomshemmet/La domus infantil, ?B 96 > Betlehems stj?rna/Brilla s?r kaj et lejk, ?B 91 > Bisp Thomas frihetss?ng/Permiskantat, ?B 93 > Blinka lilla stj?rna/Fl?rta, minimalgalax, ?B 85 > Blomman och fj?rilen/La zippa et la fl?, GV 5/2004 > Bl?sippor/Blue zeppelin, ?B 84. Alternativ version Bluesanemon, ?B 94 > Bordsvisa/Taffeld?nga, GV 8/2008 > Bort allt vad oro g?r/W?ck, tutt adrenalin, ?B 85 > Brev fr?n kolonin/Post colonial, GV 5/2006 > B?ttre och b?ttre/Bomus plus bonus, GV 8 2011 > > Look up Wikipedia for the rest of the list. > All the best > Stella Sandahl > -- > Stella Sandahl > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Feb 12 15:16:04 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 16:16:04 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] MSS in Sarasvati Bhavan Library In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I received only limited interest in the idea of a petition about SBL, so I'm not going to pursue this, personally. I'll support anyone else who does so. Best, Dominik On 4 February 2014 17:05, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Nowadays, online tools make it possible to compile an international > petition. See, e.g., change.org, etc. What do we think as a community > about raising a petition to the minister of culture (see their National > Mission on Libraries ) about the > inaccessibility of MSS at the SBL and the damage done thereby to national > and international scholarship on the history of Indian culture? > > Best, > Dominik > > > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies > , > University of Vienna, > Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 > 1090 Vienna, Austria > and > Adjunct Professor, > Division of Health and Humanities, > St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. > Project | home page| > HSSA | PGP > > > > > > On 4 February 2014 14:37, Martin Gansten wrote: > >> My thanks to Michael Witzel, Madhav Deshpande and George Cardona for >> sharing their views and experiences. It's a sorry situation indeed. The >> Sarasvati Bhavan Library catalogue includes some 120 MSS of 15 different >> texts relevant to my current research, some of them very rare -- but >> apparently unavailable. The situation lends a new meaning to the dictum >> 'pustakasth? tu y? vidy? parahastagata? dhanam'... >> >> >> Martin Gansten >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Wed Feb 12 16:18:20 2014 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 16:18:20 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0821BB3@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Of course, Hitler's Mein Kampf is readily available in almost any Indian bookstall. I imagine that the small Bene Israel community never mobilized itself to invoke Section 295-A..... Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Feb 12 17:00:50 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 18:00:50 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0821BB3@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: Wonderful! On 12 February 2014 17:18, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > Of course, Hitler's Mein Kampf is readily available in almost any Indian > bookstall. > I imagine that the small Bene Israel community never mobilized itself > to invoke Section 295-A..... > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Wed Feb 12 17:16:33 2014 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 11:16:33 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [RISA-L LIST] Pulping Intellectual Freedom: Academics will not bow down to vigilantism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4709791F-4DB2-4C7F-9858-5FE5DF954021@uts.cc.utexas.edu> In case this was not posed on Indology. This is very encouraging. Begin forwarded message: > From: John Cort > Subject: [RISA-L LIST] Pulping Intellectual Freedom: Academics will not bow down to vigilantism > Date: February 12, 2014 10:49:31 AM CST > To: RISA Academic Discussion List > Reply-To: +++RISA ACADEMIC DISCUSSION LIST+++ > > The following comes from colleagues in India. > John Cort > > > Pulping Intellectual Freedom: Academics will not bow down to vigilantism > > It is an abject shame that Penguin will pulp Prof. Wendy Doniger?s The Hindus: An Alternative History. That this decision was reached in a deal with the petitioners, with no consultation with the author compounds the folly. Coming in the wake of Oxford University Press? similar meek surrender by suspending publication of Paula Richman?s Many Ramayanas ? though forced to revert its decision in the aftermath of a spirited protest by senior academics from across the world ? and the Delhi University?s purging of A.K. Ramanujam?s essay, ?Three Hundred Ramayanas?, this episode shows that mighty publishing houses and premier universities will crumble under the slightest attack on academic freedom. > > > Wendy Doniger writes on subjects long considered taboo by mainstream Indologists: animals, sex, violence ? but her style of writing, full of wit and humor and storytelling, was beloved of many outside of academia. This has also turned her into an object of scorn and hatred among Hindutva groups, especially among the diaspora. The low level of attacks ? from the egg thrown at her in London to distasteful speculation of her personal sexuality by a US-based Indian businessman, patron and poseur of Right wing Hindu Studies ? has only exposed the shallowness of her critics. > > > In 2003, Paul Courtright?s Ganesha: Lord of Obstacles, Lord of Beginnings was similarly attacked for its psychoanalytic approach. A petition by Hindu Students Council in the US demanded from the author an ?unequivocal apology to the Hindus?, leading the publisher Motilal Banarsidas to swiftly withdraw the book with the promise that such a ?lapse? would never occur again. The petition also insisted that Coutright re-write the passages which the petitioners found offensive and issue a revised version with clarifications. > > > This demand that academic study of religion be directed by, and tailored for a community of believers, with an unlimited potential for ?hurt? is simply preposterous and thoroughly unacceptable. Many of us ? Historians, sociologists, Indologists ? are engaged in scholarship on religion. Some of us are believers, some are not. Some of us study our own communities, many train their lenses on others. > > > We believe that all scholarship is open to criticism ? especially by those who claim to speak on behalf of the community, as insiders. Indeed, it would add to the richness of debate. However, threats, personal attacks, calls for censorship and recourse to perennially offended sentiments cannot be permitted to hold academic enquiry to ransom. > > > As academics, we will robustly defend our right to work on themes of our choice with theoretical frameworks of our choosing. > > > A.Ram Babu, Tata Institute of Social Sciences, Mumbai > > Abhijit Kundu, Dept. of Sociology, Sri Venketeswara College, University of Delhi > > Adil Mehdi, Dept. of English, JMI, Delhi > > Adnan Farooqui, Dept. of Political Science, Jamia Millia Islamia, Delhi > > Ahmed Sohaib, Centre for the Study of Comparative Religions, JMI, Delhi > > Ambarien Alqadr, MCRC, JMI, Delhi > > Amit Sengupta, Indian Institute of Mass Communication, Delhi > > Brinda Bose, Department of English, University of Delhi > > Dhrub Kumar Singh, Dept of History, Benaras Hindu University, Benaras > > Faiz Ullah, Tata Institute of Social Sciences, Mumbai > > Ghazala Jamil, Independent Researcher, Delhi > > Ghazi Shahnawaz, Dept. of Psychology, JMI, Delhi > > Harsh Dobhal, Sharada University, NOIDA > > Jairus Banaji, SOAS, UK > > Manisha Sethi, Fellow, Nehru Memorial Museum and Library, Delhi > > Manoj Jena, Dept. of Sociology, JMI, Delhi > > M.S. Bhatt, Dept. of Economics, JMI, Delhi > > Mohan Rao, Centre for Social Medicine and Community Health, JNU, Delhi > > Mona Das, Satywati College, University of Delhi > > Nabanipa Bhattacharya, Dept. of Sociology, Sri Venketeswara College, University of Delhi > > Rahul Govind, Dept. of History, University of Delhi > > Rochelle Pinto, Dept. of English, University of Delhi > > Sanghamitra Misra, Dept. of History, University of Delhi > > Shohini Ghosh, MCRC, JMI, Delhi > > Sucharita Sengupta, Dept. of Political Science, JMI, Delhi > > Tabir Kalam, Dept of History, Benaras Hindu University, Benaras > > Tanweer Fazal, Nelson Mandela Centre for Peace and Conflict Resolution, JMI > > > Released by Jamia Teachers? Solidarity Association on 12th February 2014. > > www.teacherssolidarity.org > > > > -- > John E. Cort > Department of Religion > Denison University > Granville, OH 43023 > 740-587-6254 (o) > cort at denison.edu > > _______________________________________________ > RISA-L mailing list > RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu > https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ssandahl at sympatico.ca Wed Feb 12 18:14:03 2014 From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 13:14:03 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0821BB3@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: About time to invoke it. But Golwalkar was a great admirer of Mein Kampf, so banning it might upset Hindu feelings. Who knows. Best Stella -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Fax. (416) 978-5711 On 2014-02-12, at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > Of course, Hitler's Mein Kampf is readily available in almost any Indian bookstall. > I imagine that the small Bene Israel community never mobilized itself > to invoke Section 295-A..... > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Feb 12 18:25:07 2014 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 13:25:07 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient scripts Message-ID: -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CoseruC at cofc.edu Wed Feb 12 19:08:45 2014 From: CoseruC at cofc.edu (Coseru, Cristian) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 19:08:45 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And let?s not forget also that "Netaji" Subhas Chandra Bose was also a great admirer of it (after all, he helped organize the Indian Legion in Berlin from Indian subjects that had been formerly enlisted by the British forces, and subsequently captured by the Axis powers in Africa; they sore allegiance to both Hitler and Bose). Best, Christian Christian Coseru Associate Professor of Philosophy Department of Philosophy College of Charleston 66 George Street Charleston, SC 29424 Office: Phone: 843 953-1935 Facsimile: 843 953-6388 Email: coseruc at cofc.edu Web: http://coseruc.people.cofc.edu/ On Feb 12, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Stella Sandahl > wrote: About time to invoke it. But Golwalkar was a great admirer of Mein Kampf, so banning it might upset Hindu feelings. Who knows. Best Stella -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Fax. (416) 978-5711 On 2014-02-12, at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: Of course, Hitler's Mein Kampf is readily available in almost any Indian bookstall. I imagine that the small Bene Israel community never mobilized itself to invoke Section 295-A..... Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://listinfo.indology.info/&k=xJ26TAwb97wzIimyhzPQ1w%3D%3D%0A&r=IcQhLA%2Bss0kVeAHcng%2BNXg%3D%3D%0A&m=wYvF5RL4Uc%2B20mSfMeu%2ByqGi8BYjnUwhcthm%2FHbPhIM%3D%0A&s=9745255971b487663acb6a86540205b9b90d441cf39119ce33d04edd9d8b40a9 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dermot at grevatt.f9.co.uk Wed Feb 12 20:23:27 2014 From: dermot at grevatt.f9.co.uk (dermot at grevatt.f9.co.uk) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 20:23:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <52FBD83F.2985.25ADAD0@dermot.grevatt.f9.co.uk> Thanks. Am I right in thinking the title Netaji was modelled on (German) Fuehrer and (Italian) Duce? With best wishes, Dermot Killingley On 12 Feb 2014 at 19:08, Coseru, Cristian wrote: > > And let's not forget also that "Netaji" Subhas Chandra Bose was also a > great admirer of it (after all, he helped organize the Indian Legion > in Berlin from Indian subjects that had been formerly enlisted by the > British forces, and subsequently captured by the Axis powers in > Africa; they sore allegiance to both Hitler and Bose). > > Best, > Christian > > > Christian Coseru > Associate Professor of Philosophy > Department of Philosophy > College of Charleston > 66 George Street > Charleston, SC 29424 > > Office: > Phone: 843 953-1935 > Facsimile: 843 953-6388 > Email: coseruc at cofc.edu > Web: http://coseruc.people.cofc.edu/ > > > > On Feb 12, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Stella Sandahl > wrote: > > About time to invoke it. But Golwalkar was a great admirer of Mein > Kampf, so banning it might upset Hindu feelings. Who knows. Best > Stella -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian > Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 > ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Fax. (416) > 978-5711 > > > > On 2014-02-12, at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > > Of course, Hitler's Mein Kampf is readily available in almost any > Indian bookstall. I imagine that the small Bene Israel community > never mobilized itself to invoke Section 295-A..... > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://listinfo.indolog > y.info/&k=xJ26TAwb97wzIimyhzPQ1w > %3D%3D%0A&r=IcQhLA%2Bss0kVeAHcng%2BNXg%3D%3D%0A&m=wYvF5RL4Uc%2B20m > SfMe > u%2ByqGi8BYjnUwhcthm%2FHbPhIM%3D%0A&s=9745255971b487663acb6a865402 > 05b9b90d441 cf39119ce33d04edd9d8b40a9 > From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl Wed Feb 12 21:14:14 2014 From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 21:14:14 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <84495178-1CC8-4A1A-A12F-254621D27EE5@vu.nl> Here I have to object. Bose was not really an admirer of the darkest sides of Hitler and Bose was quite well aware of the intensely racist nature of national socialism. But Bose was an Indian nationalist and vehemently anti-British. Thus trying to get Hitler's help was based on the principle 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. Hitler, incidentally, saw nothing in Indian independence. Victor van Bijlert Op 12 feb. 2014 om 20:09 heeft "Coseru, Cristian" > het volgende geschreven: And let?s not forget also that "Netaji" Subhas Chandra Bose was also a great admirer of it (after all, he helped organize the Indian Legion in Berlin from Indian subjects that had been formerly enlisted by the British forces, and subsequently captured by the Axis powers in Africa; they sore allegiance to both Hitler and Bose). Best, Christian Christian Coseru Associate Professor of Philosophy Department of Philosophy College of Charleston 66 George Street Charleston, SC 29424 Office: Phone: 843 953-1935 Facsimile: 843 953-6388 Email: coseruc at cofc.edu Web: http://coseruc.people.cofc.edu/ On Feb 12, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Stella Sandahl > wrote: About time to invoke it. But Golwalkar was a great admirer of Mein Kampf, so banning it might upset Hindu feelings. Who knows. Best Stella -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Fax. (416) 978-5711 On 2014-02-12, at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: Of course, Hitler's Mein Kampf is readily available in almost any Indian bookstall. I imagine that the small Bene Israel community never mobilized itself to invoke Section 295-A..... Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://listinfo.indology.info/&k=xJ26TAwb97wzIimyhzPQ1w%3D%3D%0A&r=IcQhLA%2Bss0kVeAHcng%2BNXg%3D%3D%0A&m=wYvF5RL4Uc%2B20mSfMeu%2ByqGi8BYjnUwhcthm%2FHbPhIM%3D%0A&s=9745255971b487663acb6a86540205b9b90d441cf39119ce33d04edd9d8b40a9 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Wed Feb 12 21:19:53 2014 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 21:19:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India In-Reply-To: <84495178-1CC8-4A1A-A12F-254621D27EE5@vu.nl> Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0821C9D@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Dear friends, I apologize for having raised the subject. My point was not to enter into another round of discussion of philo-nazi sentiments in India. I wished only to emphasize the arbitrariness of the censorship that was imposed on our colleague Wendy Doniger by a narrow and not representative Hindu faction, when, as we know, genuine hate-literature circulates quite freely in India. Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CoseruC at cofc.edu Wed Feb 12 21:42:37 2014 From: CoseruC at cofc.edu (Coseru, Cristian) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 21:42:37 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India In-Reply-To: <84495178-1CC8-4A1A-A12F-254621D27EE5@vu.nl> Message-ID: <5F8EB3EE-E1B8-4DFC-B6BC-5257386168D0@cofc.edu> This is digressing from the main point of this thread, but let me just add that once he became aware of Hitler's ulterior motives (after the invasion of Russia), Bose jumped from the frying pan into the fire, so to speak, by turning to the Japanese for the same sort of help (while fully aware of Japan's own imperial ambitions in SE Asia). Best, Christian Sent from my iPhone On Feb 12, 2014, at 4:14 PM, "Bijlert, V.A. van" > wrote: Here I have to object. Bose was not really an admirer of the darkest sides of Hitler and Bose was quite well aware of the intensely racist nature of national socialism. But Bose was an Indian nationalist and vehemently anti-British. Thus trying to get Hitler's help was based on the principle 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. Hitler, incidentally, saw nothing in Indian independence. Victor van Bijlert Op 12 feb. 2014 om 20:09 heeft "Coseru, Cristian" > het volgende geschreven: And let?s not forget also that "Netaji" Subhas Chandra Bose was also a great admirer of it (after all, he helped organize the Indian Legion in Berlin from Indian subjects that had been formerly enlisted by the British forces, and subsequently captured by the Axis powers in Africa; they sore allegiance to both Hitler and Bose). Best, Christian Christian Coseru Associate Professor of Philosophy Department of Philosophy College of Charleston 66 George Street Charleston, SC 29424 Office: Phone: 843 953-1935 Facsimile: 843 953-6388 Email: coseruc at cofc.edu Web: http://coseruc.people.cofc.edu/ On Feb 12, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Stella Sandahl > wrote: About time to invoke it. But Golwalkar was a great admirer of Mein Kampf, so banning it might upset Hindu feelings. Who knows. Best Stella -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Fax. (416) 978-5711 On 2014-02-12, at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: Of course, Hitler's Mein Kampf is readily available in almost any Indian bookstall. I imagine that the small Bene Israel community never mobilized itself to invoke Section 295-A..... Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://listinfo.indology.info/&k=xJ26TAwb97wzIimyhzPQ1w%3D%3D%0A&r=IcQhLA%2Bss0kVeAHcng%2BNXg%3D%3D%0A&m=wYvF5RL4Uc%2B20mSfMeu%2ByqGi8BYjnUwhcthm%2FHbPhIM%3D%0A&s=9745255971b487663acb6a86540205b9b90d441cf39119ce33d04edd9d8b40a9 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Wed Feb 12 21:57:30 2014 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 21:57:30 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unwarranted digression Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0821CB7@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> My comment was to a thread concerning the treatment of Wendy Doniger's work. Someone then took my comment and began a new thread, with a new name, on the basis of it. I had no desire to begin a thread on the present subject, which has been tiresomely rehashed in discussion after discussion. My sole concern was with censorship in India, which has a clear and immediate pertinence. If any of you really wish to spin round and round over the nazi question, be my guests. Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.cicuzza at gmail.com Thu Feb 13 00:34:01 2014 From: c.cicuzza at gmail.com (Claudio Cicuzza) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 14 07:34:01 +0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] R: Fwd: [RISA-L LIST] Pulping Intellectual Freedom:Academics will not bow down to vigilantism In-Reply-To: <4709791F-4DB2-4C7F-9858-5FE5DF954021@uts.cc.utexas.edu> Message-ID: Il libro ? stato messo all'indice... Se vuoi io ce l'ho!! Hahahhaa!!! _____ Da: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] Per conto di Patrick Olivelle Inviato: gioved? 13 febbraio 2014 00:17 A: Indology List Oggetto: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [RISA-L LIST] Pulping Intellectual Freedom:Academics will not bow down to vigilantism In case this was not posed on Indology. This is very encouraging. Begin forwarded message: From: John Cort Subject: [RISA-L LIST] Pulping Intellectual Freedom: Academics will not bow down to vigilantism Date: February 12, 2014 10:49:31 AM CST To: RISA Academic Discussion List Reply-To: +++RISA ACADEMIC DISCUSSION LIST+++ The following comes from colleagues in India. John Cort Pulping Intellectual Freedom: Academics will not bow down to vigilantism It is an abject shame that Penguin will pulp Prof. Wendy Doniger?s The Hindus: An Alternative History. That this decision was reached in a deal with the petitioners, with no consultation with the author compounds the folly. Coming in the wake of Oxford University Press? similar meek surrender by suspending publication of Paula Richman?s Many Ramayanas ? though forced to revert its decision in the aftermath of a spirited protest by senior academics from across the world ? and the Delhi University?s purging of A.K. Ramanujam?s essay, ?Three Hundred Ramayanas?, this episode shows that mighty publishing houses and premier universities will crumble under the slightest attack on academic freedom. Wendy Doniger writes on subjects long considered taboo by mainstream Indologists: animals, sex, violence ? but her style of writing, full of wit and humor and storytelling, was beloved of many outside of academia. This has also turned her into an object of scorn and hatred among Hindutva groups, especially among the diaspora. The low level of attacks ? from the egg thrown at her in London to distasteful speculation of her personal sexuality by a US-based Indian businessman, patron and poseur of Right wing Hindu Studies ? has only exposed the shallowness of her critics. In 2003, Paul Courtright?s Ganesha: Lord of Obstacles, Lord of Beginnings was similarly attacked for its psychoanalytic approach. A petition by Hindu Students Council in the US demanded from the author an ?unequivocal apology to the Hindus?, leading the publisher Motilal Banarsidas to swiftly withdraw the book with the promise that such a ?lapse? would never occur again. The petition also insisted that Coutright re-write the passages which the petitioners found offensive and issue a revised version with clarifications. This demand that academic study of religion be directed by, and tailored for a community of believers, with an unlimited potential for ?hurt? is simply preposterous and thoroughly unacceptable. Many of us ? Historians, sociologists, Indologists ? are engaged in scholarship on religion. Some of us are believers, some are not. Some of us study our own communities, many train their lenses on others. We believe that all scholarship is open to criticism ? especially by those who claim to speak on behalf of the community, as insiders. Indeed, it would add to the richness of debate. However, threats, personal attacks, calls for censorship and recourse to perennially offended sentiments cannot be permitted to hold academic enquiry to ransom. As academics, we will robustly defend our right to work on themes of our choice with theoretical frameworks of our choosing. A.Ram Babu, Tata Institute of Social Sciences, Mumbai Abhijit Kundu, Dept. of Sociology, Sri Venketeswara College, University of Delhi Adil Mehdi, Dept. of English, JMI, Delhi Adnan Farooqui, Dept. of Political Science, Jamia Millia Islamia, Delhi Ahmed Sohaib, Centre for the Study of Comparative Religions, JMI, Delhi Ambarien Alqadr, MCRC, JMI, Delhi Amit Sengupta, Indian Institute of Mass Communication, Delhi Brinda Bose, Department of English, University of Delhi Dhrub Kumar Singh, Dept of History, Benaras Hindu University, Benaras Faiz Ullah, Tata Institute of Social Sciences, Mumbai Ghazala Jamil, Independent Researcher, Delhi Ghazi Shahnawaz, Dept. of Psychology, JMI, Delhi Harsh Dobhal, Sharada University, NOIDA Jairus Banaji, SOAS, UK Manisha Sethi, Fellow, Nehru Memorial Museum and Library, Delhi Manoj Jena, Dept. of Sociology, JMI, Delhi M.S. Bhatt, Dept. of Economics, JMI, Delhi Mohan Rao, Centre for Social Medicine and Community Health, JNU, Delhi Mona Das, Satywati College, University of Delhi Nabanipa Bhattacharya, Dept. of Sociology, Sri Venketeswara College, University of Delhi Rahul Govind, Dept. of History, University of Delhi Rochelle Pinto, Dept. of English, University of Delhi Sanghamitra Misra, Dept. of History, University of Delhi Shohini Ghosh, MCRC, JMI, Delhi Sucharita Sengupta, Dept. of Political Science, JMI, Delhi Tabir Kalam, Dept of History, Benaras Hindu University, Benaras Tanweer Fazal, Nelson Mandela Centre for Peace and Conflict Resolution, JMI Released by Jamia Teachers? Solidarity Association on 12th February 2014. www.teacherssolidarity.org -- John E. Cort Department of Religion Denison University Granville, OH 43023 740-587-6254 (o) cort at denison.edu _______________________________________________ RISA-L mailing list RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanus1216 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 13 05:42:14 2014 From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 14 21:42:14 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1392270134.15694.YahooMailNeo@web163005.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> As I recall, the British Indian law on this subject is discussed in the introduction to: Publications proscribed by the government of India : a catalogue of the collections in the India Office Library and Records and the Department of Oriental Manuscripts and Printed Books, British Library Reference Division / edited by Graham Shaw and Mary Lloyd.?London: British Library, 1985. The British authorities were, I believe, worried primarily about riots.??A number of the books and pamphlets banned were religious polemics rather than attacks on British rule. Allen?????????? On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 12:05 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: Wonderful! On 12 February 2014 17:18, Matthew Kapstein wrote: Of course, Hitler's Mein Kampf is readily available in almost any Indian bookstall. >I imagine that the small Bene Israel community never mobilized itself >to invoke Section 295-A..... > > > >Matthew Kapstein >Directeur d'?tudes, >Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > >Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >The University of Chicago > > >________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Thu Feb 13 10:29:23 2014 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 14 10:29:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Intensive Course in Old Javanese In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ANNOUNCEMENT INTENSIVE COURSE IN OLD JAVANESE Trawas, Mojokerto, East Java, Indonesia ? 13 through 28 June 2014 organized by the National Library of the Republic of Indonesia (Perpusnas) in collaboration with the ?cole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient (EFEO) and the Royal Netherlands Institute for Southeast Asian and Caribbean Studies (KITLV) Aiming to support the training of a new generation of Old Javanese philologists and to stimulate international collaboration in this field, the National Library of the Republic of Indonesia (Perpusnas) in collaboration with the ?cole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient (French School of Asian Studies, EFEO) and the Royal Netherlands Institute for Southeast Asian and Caribbean Studies (KITLV) will organize this year an intensive course in Old Javanese. Concept. An academic retreat lasting 15 days attended by about 20 students who will be guided in intensive manner by 3 specialists of Old Javanese philology. The program will take place in typical Javanese natural surroundings while the learning experience will be enriched by excursions to vestiges of ancient Hindu and Buddhist civilization in East Java. Aim. The student who has completed the intensive course is able independently to read and analyse Old Javanese texts and is aware of the available research tools (Dictionaries, Grammars, etc.). Location. The program will take place on a location on the flank of Mount Penanggungan in East Java that is conducive to intensive collective study and in whose vicinity are found vestiges of ancient Javanese culture such as temples, sculptures and stone inscriptions in Old Javanese language. Dates. The program will take place from 13 through 28 June, 2014. Teachers. The team of teachers is composed of Willem van der Molen (KITLV and University of Indonesia), Arlo Griffiths (EFEO and UI) and Dwi Puspitorini (UI). Course content. The first week we will focus on intensive study of Old Javanese grammar, after which, during the second week, we will read representative samples of three principal genres of the Old Javanese textual corpus: Parwas, Kakawins, Inscriptions (2 hours per day each). Language of Instruction. English. Participants. We will admit about 15 participants from Indonesian universities or other institutions. We also welcome about 5 foreign scholars of Sanskrit or other related fields, or foreign graduate students, who wish to learn Old Javanese. Admission. Admission will proceed through selection on the basis of an application file which should consist of: (a) your CV (b) a statement of motivation explaining your interest in participation (c) if relevant a reasoned request for financial support toward your international travel costs Please compile your application in a single pdf file and send it to as soon as possible to: Panitia Workshop Bahasa Jawa Kuno email: lkk at pnri.go.id with cc to arlo.griffiths at efeo.net Admission for foreign participants will be open from the date of publication of this announcement until March 30. Costs. Selected participants are expected to travel on their own expense to Juanda International Airport in Surabaya. In exceptional cases, we may be able to offer a contribution to those costs. There is no registration fee, and we will shoulder the costs of transportation between Surabaya and the location on Mount Penanggungan, lodging, board, excursions, and study material. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bihanisarkar at googlemail.com Thu Feb 13 12:00:33 2014 From: bihanisarkar at googlemail.com (Bihani Sarkar) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 14 17:30:33 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India by Penguin India In-Reply-To: <6387956D22BE9F4BA569E78BF85B528D5A9006D2@HARVANDMBX06.fasmail.priv> Message-ID: This is with regards to the recent discussion on the list concerning the withdrawal of *The Hindus*. I would like to draw your attention to an article by Mukul Kesavan entitled "Penguin's day in court", which appeared in the Editorial section of today's edition of the Calcutta newspaper "The Telegraph". It may be of interest to those following the matter. http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140213/jsp/opinion/story_17928781.jsp#.UvxOd_1tw0o Thank you for your kind consideration, With best wishes, Bihani Sarkar, B.A. (Hons.) M.Phil. D.Phil. (Oxon) Postdoctoral Research Fellow ("Nachwuchsinitiative"), University of Hamburg, Asien-Afrika-Institut (Room 108), Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets, Alsterterrasse 1, 20354, Hamburg, Germany. On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Watson, Alex wrote: > STATEMENT BY WENDY DONIGER: > > Dear friends, I have had literally hundreds of requests for interviews, in > various media, and I can't do them all. So here is a statement that you may > use. I hope it's enough; it's the best I can do right now. I intend to > write a longer article for publication in a couple of weeks. Yours with > gratitude for your courage and compassion, Wendy > > I was thrilled and moved by the great number of messages of support that I > received, not merely from friends and colleagues but from people in India > that I have never met, who had read and loved The Hindus, and by news and > media people, all of whom expressed their outrage and sadness and their > wish to help me in any way they could. I was, of course, angry and > disappointed to see this happen, and I am deeply troubled by what it > foretells for free speech in India in the present, and steadily worsening, > political climate. And as a publisher's daughter, I particularly wince at > the knowledge that the existing books (unless they are bought out quickly > by people intrigued by all the brouhaha) will be pulped. But I do not blame > Penguin Books, India. Other publishers have just quietly withdrawn other > books without making the effort that Penguin made to save this book. > Penguin, India, took this book on knowing that it would stir anger in the > Hindutva ranks, and they defended it in the courts for four years, both as > a civil and as a criminal suit. They were finally defeated by the true > villain of this piece--the Indian law that makes it a criminal rather than > civil offense to publish a book that offends any Hindu, a law that > jeopardizes the physical safety of any publisher, no matter how ludicrous > the accusation brought against a book. An example at random, from the > lawsuit in question: 'That YOU NOTICEE has hurt the religious feelings of > millions of Hindus by declaring that Ramayana is a fiction. "Placing the > Ramayan in its historical contexts demonstrates that it is a work of > fiction, created by human authors, who lived at various times.........." > (P.662) This breaches section 295A of the Indian Penal Code (IPC). ' > Finally, I am glad that, in the age of the Internet, it is no longer > possible to suppress a book. The Hindus is available on Kindle; and if > legal means of publication fail, the Internet has other ways of keeping > books in circulation. People in India will always be able to read books of > all sorts, including some that may offend some Hindus. > > Alex Watson > http://harvard.academia.edu/AlexWatson > > > *From: *Dn Jha > *Subject: **Re: [INDOLOGY] Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India > by Penguin India* > *Date: *11 February 2014 10:22:46 EST > *To: *Valerie J Roebuck > *Cc: *Dominik Wujastyk , indology List List < > indology at list.indology.info> > *Reply-To: * > > > We shouln"t expect anything better from Indian Publishers, be it > Penguin or any other. They are all spineless. What is still worse, the > reaction of the academic community hardly carries any weight. We have seen > this in the case of Courtright' book on Ganesh, Laine's book on Shivaji, > Ramanujan essay on the Ramayana; examples can be multiplied. In many cases > the academics don't even react as I experienced in my own case. They swear > by freedom of expression, but the freedom of X becomes superior to the > freedom of Y. > I am familiar with WendyDoniger's writings which are undoubtedly > refreshing and thought provoking and when I read her Hinduism book (Penguin > India) I had a feeling that the Sangh Parivar may come out openly against > it any time. I will not be surprised if the Parivar repeats performance in > the case of her book ON HINDUISM published by the Aleph company last year. > Isn't it possible that the Penguin authors mobilise scholars from > diferent fields and send a petition-on line to the Publisher. If Peguin > does not agree to put the book back into circulation, at least the Penguin > authors withdraw their books from them or at least decide not to publish > with them in future. This is what some scholars, I am told, did with with > Motilal Banarsidass in the case of Courtright's book. > D N Jha > Former Professor and Chair > Department of History > University of Delhi > jdnarayan at gmail.com > -- > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 6:01 PM, Valerie J Roebuck < > vjroebuck at btinternet.com> wrote: > >> Thank you for telling us about this. I am a Penguin India author too, and >> have emailed them with my concerns. >> >> Valerie J Roebuck >> Manchester, UK >> >> On 11 Feb 2014, at 10:14, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I am appalled to learn of yet another book-banning episode in India, >> this time >> affecting our colleague Wendy Doniger. >> >> >> Yesterday, if I understand correctly, Penguin India agreed to withdraw >> the book rather than fight the law case: >> >> >> - >> http://scroll.in/article/penguin-agrees-to-pulp-us-scholars-book-on-hinduism-on-pressure-from-fundamentalists?id=656104 >> >> >> If you read the five objections offered against the book, >> they are risible. It beggars belief that any court, much less a publisher, >> would take objections of this type seriously. >> >> As a Penguin Delhi author myself, I shall be writing to Penguin India to >> protest this dark-ages ruling. >> >> Penguin Delhi's contact details are here: >> http://www.penguinbooksindia.com/en/content/contact-us >> >> Dominik Wujastyk >> University of Vienna >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From laurie.patton at duke.edu Thu Feb 13 18:18:13 2014 From: laurie.patton at duke.edu (Prof Laurie Patton, Ph.D.) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 14 18:18:13 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Petition now on line Message-ID: Indology friends, A petition is now on line. https://www.change.org/en-IN/petitions/members-of-both-houses-of-the-indian-parliament-and-the-honorable-law-minister-government-of-india-reconsider-and-revise-sections-153-a-and-295-a-of-the-indian-penal-code-to-protect-freedom-of-expression-in-india# With thanks to the many who wrote to me offline; For anyone who wishes to sign, the way to add your name is to log on to this link and sign the petition. Laurie P. Laurie L Patton Durden Professor of Religion And Dean, Trinity College of Arts & Sciences 104 Allen Building Duke University Durham, NC 27705 PH: 919 684 4863 laurie.patton at duke.edu From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Allen Thrasher Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 12:42 AM To: Dominik Wujastyk; Matthew Kapstein Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Public statement from Wendy Doniger As I recall, the British Indian law on this subject is discussed in the introduction to: Publications proscribed by the government of India : a catalogue of the collections in the India Office Library and Records and the Department of Oriental Manuscripts and Printed Books, British Library Reference Division / edited by Graham Shaw and Mary Lloyd. London: British Library, 1985. The British authorities were, I believe, worried primarily about riots. A number of the books and pamphlets banned were religious polemics rather than attacks on British rule. Allen On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 12:05 PM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: Wonderful! On 12 February 2014 17:18, Matthew Kapstein > wrote: Of course, Hitler's Mein Kampf is readily available in almost any Indian bookstall. I imagine that the small Bene Israel community never mobilized itself to invoke Section 295-A..... Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pesch at indoger.uzh.ch Thu Feb 13 20:39:15 2014 From: pesch at indoger.uzh.ch (Peter Schreiner) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 14 21:39:15 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vishnupurana Message-ID: <52FD2D73.6090009@indoger.uzh.ch> Dear Indologysts The publication of the German translation of the Vi??upur??a provides the occasion to make the transliterated version of the Sanskrit text as constituted by the Critical Edition available in electronic form. It is a great pleasure for me to be able to acknowledge that the permission to make this electronic version of the constituted text available has been granted by the authorities of M. S. University of Baroda and of Prof. M. L. Wadekar, acting director of the Oriental Institute (email dated September 9, 2012). I wish to express my profound respect for the work done at the Oriental Institute and my immense gratitude for the long standing cooperation, support and generosity that has been accompanying my own work on and with the ViP, from 1975 till today. For details about the files (sources, conventions of transliteration, etc.) deposited in the text archive of the Institute of Indology at the University of Z?rich (http://www.aoi.uzh.ch/indologie/teaching/textarchive.html) please see the file "ViPCE_transliteration". Peter Schreiner References: The Critical Edition of the Vi??upur??am, ed. by M. M. Pathak, 2 vols, Vadodara 1997-1999. Vi??upur??a : Althergebrachte Kunde ?ber Vi??u. Aus dem Sanskrit ?bersetzt und herausgegeben von Peter Schreiner. Berlin: Verlag der Weltreligionen, 2013. 818 p. -- Peter Schreiner Chemin des Boracles 94 CH-1008 Jouxtens-M?zery Tel./Fax +41-21-6350365 email: pesch at indoger.uzh.ch From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Thu Feb 13 20:42:05 2014 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 14 20:42:05 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pulping Intellectual Freedom: Academics will not bow down to vigilantism Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0821F9C@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Dear friends, Those interested in this issue may wish to be aware of the following petition: http://www.change.org/en-IN/petitions/members-of-both-houses-of-the-indian-parliament-and-the-honorable-law-minister-government-of-india-reconsider-and-revise-sections-153-a-and-295-a-of-the-indian-penal-code-to-protect-freedom-of-expression-in-india?recruiter=79891207&utm_campaign=signature_receipt&utm_medium=email&utm_source=share_petition Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ssandahl at sympatico.ca Thu Feb 13 20:54:35 2014 From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca (Stella Sandahl) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 14 15:54:35 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India In-Reply-To: <5F8EB3EE-E1B8-4DFC-B6BC-5257386168D0@cofc.edu> Message-ID: A friend sent me this distressing information: "Actually, in a survey of ?strong? leaders conducted among Delhi University students some years ago, Hitler came out ahead of Gandhi." However, I wonder how much Delhi students actually know about Hitler. Best Stella -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 2014-02-12, at 4:42 PM, Coseru, Cristian wrote: > This is digressing from the main point of this thread, but let me just add that once he became aware of Hitler's ulterior motives (after the invasion of Russia), Bose jumped from the frying pan into the fire, so to speak, by turning to the Japanese for the same sort of help (while fully aware of Japan's own imperial ambitions in SE Asia). > > Best, > Christian > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 12, 2014, at 4:14 PM, "Bijlert, V.A. van" wrote: > >> Here I have to object. Bose was not really an admirer of the darkest sides of Hitler and Bose was quite well aware of the intensely racist nature of national socialism. But Bose was an Indian nationalist and vehemently anti-British. Thus trying to get Hitler's help was based on the principle 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. Hitler, incidentally, saw nothing in Indian independence. >> >> Victor van Bijlert >> >> >> >> Op 12 feb. 2014 om 20:09 heeft "Coseru, Cristian" het volgende geschreven: >> >>> And let?s not forget also that "Netaji" Subhas Chandra Bose was also a great admirer of it (after all, he helped organize the Indian Legion in Berlin from Indian subjects that had been formerly enlisted by the British forces, and subsequently captured by the Axis powers in Africa; they sore allegiance to both Hitler and Bose). >>> >>> Best, >>> Christian >>> >>> >>> Christian Coseru >>> Associate Professor of Philosophy >>> Department of Philosophy >>> College of Charleston >>> 66 George Street >>> Charleston, SC 29424 >>> >>> Office: >>> Phone: 843 953-1935 >>> Facsimile: 843 953-6388 >>> Email: coseruc at cofc.edu >>> Web: http://coseruc.people.cofc.edu/ >>> >>> >>> On Feb 12, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Stella Sandahl wrote: >>> >>>> About time to invoke it. But Golwalkar was a great admirer of Mein Kampf, so banning it might upset Hindu feelings. Who knows. >>>> Best >>>> Stella >>>> -- >>>> Professor Stella Sandahl >>>> Department of East Asian Studies >>>> 130 St. George St. room 14087 >>>> Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 >>>> ssandahl at sympatico.ca >>>> stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca >>>> >>>> Fax. (416) 978-5711 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2014-02-12, at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: >>>> >>>>> Of course, Hitler's Mein Kampf is readily available in almost any Indian bookstall. >>>>> I imagine that the small Bene Israel community never mobilized itself >>>>> to invoke Section 295-A..... >>>>> >>>>> Matthew Kapstein >>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, >>>>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >>>>> >>>>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >>>>> The University of Chicago >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://listinfo.indology.info/&k=xJ26TAwb97wzIimyhzPQ1w%3D%3D%0A&r=IcQhLA%2Bss0kVeAHcng%2BNXg%3D%3D%0A&m=wYvF5RL4Uc%2B20mSfMeu%2ByqGi8BYjnUwhcthm%2FHbPhIM%3D%0A&s=9745255971b487663acb6a86540205b9b90d441cf39119ce33d04edd9d8b40a9 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dxs163 at case.edu Thu Feb 13 21:13:41 2014 From: dxs163 at case.edu (Deepak Sarma) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 14 16:13:41 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pulping Intellectual Freedom: Academics will not bow down to vigilantism In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0821F9C@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: All: I wrote this Huff Post Blog on the topic entitled "The Academic Study of Hinduism: An Alternative Future": http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-sarma/the-academic-study-of-hinduism_b_4781205.html yours, Deepak Dr. Deepak Sarma Professor of Religious Studies Curatorial Consultant, Department of Asian Art Cleveland Museum of Art Mailing Address: Department of Religious Studies Tomlinson Hall 2121 MLK Jr. Drive Case Western Reserve University Cleveland, OH 44106-7112 office: 216-368-4790 deepak.sarma at case.edu On Feb 13, 2014, at 3:42 PM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > Dear friends, > > Those interested in this issue may wish to be aware of the following petition: > > http://www.change.org/en-IN/petitions/members-of-both-houses-of-the-indian-parliament-and-the-honorable-law-minister-government-of-india-reconsider-and-revise-sections-153-a-and-295-a-of-the-indian-penal-code-to-protect-freedom-of-expression-in-india?recruiter=79891207&utm_campaign=signature_receipt&utm_medium=email&utm_source=share_petition > > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Feb 13 22:16:31 2014 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 14 17:16:31 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tattvasamgraha-panjika In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <47D524CCE5B6435AA4DC2430D3FC2D43@Dan> Dear colleagues, Does anyone know where I can find an e-copy of a Sanskrit edition Kamala??la's Tattvasamgraha-pa?jik?? I know the grammatically parsed version of ??ntarak?ita's root verses on GRETIL but have been unable to find an e-version of the pa?jik?. Even a PDF would be ok, but if there is a searchable romanized version, that would be ideal. Thank you. Dan Lusthaus From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Feb 13 22:46:51 2014 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 14 17:46:51 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tattvasamgraha-panjika In-Reply-To: <5B4272FE-008A-41A1-B12C-EB8748D3CC0B@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Many thanks for the amazingly quick response from Vincent Eltschinger, Michael Slouber, Alexander von Rospatt, and Matt Kapstein. I now have an e-version!! This list is amazing! With gratitude, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkmfolk at gmail.com Thu Feb 13 23:32:59 2014 From: mkmfolk at gmail.com (Mahendra Kumar Mishra) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 14 05:02:59 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] please unsubscribe me Message-ID: -- Dr Mahendra K Mishra A-7,Lord Gunjan Palace(First Floor) RASULGARH Bhubaneswar 751010,Odisha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dchakra at hotmail.de Fri Feb 14 04:41:09 2014 From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 14 10:11:09 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India/Popularity of Hitler Stories! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All,I have been stirred by Dr. Stella Sandahl to say something about the popularity of Hitler in West Bengal, India. I remember very well that in the sixties a very learned writer of Bengal, a polyglot, who spent a considerable time studying in Europe, particularly in Germany, was writing a series for the Bengali literary magazine Desh and his writings were being admired on all hands. The writer was Syed Muztaba Ali, publishing a series of belle?s letters on the Nazi violence in Europe, not so much like setting the grass aflame, but generating his tongue in cheek to shake the utmost depths of men?s hearts with horror. The Europe of that time had not been able to steer clear of the ashes of the Second World War and passive watchers of the war, as we Indians were, we were moved to read Ali?s numerous stories, which one did not write in a book of history. We read thus innumerable stories of Hitler?s invasions into the other European countries, along with Ali?s sweet and sour anecdotes; we learnt about different political and military strategies and tragedies, the condemned life of the Jews, the toothless life of a teenager called Anne Franck, who died in the Bergen-Belsen Camp in 1945, and we could more than ever take a look at numerous concentration camps of Europe with horror. I remember spending many a sleepless nights with the issues of the magazine.The inclusion of the series of writings gave a considerable hike to the sale of the magazine. During the last fifteen years I have tried to visit concentration camps in Germany, Czech Republic and Poland whenever I had the opportunity to attend seminars in the nearby places, though the experiences were nonetheless heart-breaking.RegardsDebabrata Chakrabarti ?This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.? ? Anandamayi Ma ?Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.? - Paracelsus From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:54:35 -0500 To: CoseruC at cofc.edu; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India A friend sent me this distressing information: "Actually, in a survey of ?strong? leaders conducted among Delhi University students some years ago, Hitler came out ahead of Gandhi."However, I wonder how much Delhi students actually know about Hitler. BestStella --Stella Sandahlssandahl at sympatico.ca On 2014-02-12, at 4:42 PM, Coseru, Cristian wrote: This is digressing from the main point of this thread, but let me just add that once he became aware of Hitler's ulterior motives (after the invasion of Russia), Bose jumped from the frying pan into the fire, so to speak, by turning to the Japanese for the same sort of help (while fully aware of Japan's own imperial ambitions in SE Asia). Best, Christian Sent from my iPhone On Feb 12, 2014, at 4:14 PM, "Bijlert, V.A. van" wrote: Here I have to object. Bose was not really an admirer of the darkest sides of Hitler and Bose was quite well aware of the intensely racist nature of national socialism. But Bose was an Indian nationalist and vehemently anti-British. Thus trying to get Hitler's help was based on the principle 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. Hitler, incidentally, saw nothing in Indian independence. Victor van Bijlert Op 12 feb. 2014 om 20:09 heeft "Coseru, Cristian" het volgende geschreven: And let?s not forget also that "Netaji" Subhas Chandra Bose was also a great admirer of it (after all, he helped organize the Indian Legion in Berlin from Indian subjects that had been formerly enlisted by the British forces, and subsequently captured by the Axis powers in Africa; they sore allegiance to both Hitler and Bose). Best, Christian Christian Coseru Associate Professor of Philosophy Department of Philosophy College of Charleston 66 George Street Charleston, SC 29424 Office: Phone: 843 953-1935 Facsimile: 843 953-6388 Email: coseruc at cofc.edu Web: http://coseruc.people.cofc.edu/ On Feb 12, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Stella Sandahl wrote: About time to invoke it. But Golwalkar was a great admirer of Mein Kampf, so banning it might upset Hindu feelings. Who knows. Best Stella -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Fax. (416) 978-5711 On 2014-02-12, at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: Of course, Hitler's Mein Kampf is readily available in almost any Indian bookstall. I imagine that the small Bene Israel community never mobilized itself to invoke Section 295-A..... Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://listinfo.indology.info/&k=xJ26TAwb97wzIimyhzPQ1w%3D%3D%0A&r=IcQhLA%2Bss0kVeAHcng%2BNXg%3D%3D%0A&m=wYvF5RL4Uc%2B20mSfMeu%2ByqGi8BYjnUwhcthm%2FHbPhIM%3D%0A&s=9745255971b487663acb6a86540205b9b90d441cf39119ce33d04edd9d8b40a9 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Fri Feb 14 07:22:57 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 14 12:52:57 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India/Popularity of Hitler Stories! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That was very fine! I have two additions to make. When he first published his belles-lettres Ali started with Chacha Kahini 'Anecdotes of the uncle'. Ali was a democrat and also an anti-British great nationalist patriot. However, perhaps because of his anti-British sentiments, initially Ali was not an opponent of Hitler. He himself admits that it was later when a blue-eyed Kashmiri was taken for a Jew and attacked by Hitler's musclemen that Ali understood the would be Nazis as an evil. Ali said these much later long after coming back to India. In the sixties he was writing again and commented on the Eichmann trial. He cited quite a few facts pointing to Eichmann's crimes. He had visited Germany more than once. How Ali -- admired on both the Bengals for his sarcastic writings, particularly in my University at Santiniketan where he lived for long -- viewed the British may be seen also in the Deshe Bideshe (In my land and abroad), a unique document on the rise and fall of Amanulla and Bachchai Sakao in the thirties. Here Ali does not hesitate to praise anti-British Russians, both exiled intellectuals and Soviet soldiers! Greetings DB On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti < dchakra at hotmail.de> wrote: > Dear All, > > I have been stirred by Dr. Stella Sandahl to say something about the > popularity of Hitler in West Bengal, India. I remember very well that in > the sixties a very learned writer of Bengal, a polyglot, who spent a > considerable time studying in Europe, particularly in Germany, was writing > a series for the Bengali literary magazine *Desh* and his writings were > being admired on all hands. The writer was Syed Muztaba Ali, publishing a > series of belle's letters on the Nazi violence in Europe, not so much like > setting the grass aflame, but generating his tongue in cheek to shake the > utmost depths of men's hearts with horror. The Europe of that time had not > been able to steer clear of the ashes of the Second World War and passive > watchers of the war, as we Indians were, we were moved to read Ali's > numerous stories, which one did not write in a book of history. We read > thus innumerable stories of Hitler's invasions into the other European > countries, along with Ali's sweet and sour anecdotes; we learnt about > different political and military strategies and tragedies, the condemned > life of the Jews, the toothless life of a teenager called Anne Franck, who > died in the Bergen-Belsen Camp in 1945, and we could more than ever take a > look at numerous concentration camps of Europe with horror. I remember > spending many a sleepless nights with the issues of the magazine. > > The inclusion of the series of writings gave a considerable hike to the > sale of the magazine. > > During the last fifteen years I have tried to visit concentration camps in > Germany, Czech Republic and Poland whenever I had the opportunity to attend > seminars in the nearby places, though the experiences were nonetheless > heart-breaking. > > Regards > > Debabrata Chakrabarti > > > > > > "This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how > you play it." - Anandamayi Ma > > "Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and > unbroken." - Paracelsus > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca > Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:54:35 -0500 > To: CoseruC at cofc.edu; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India > > A friend sent me this distressing information: "Actually, in a survey of > "strong" leaders conducted among Delhi University students some years ago, > Hitler came out ahead of Gandhi." > However, I wonder how much Delhi students actually know about Hitler. > Best > Stella > > -- > Stella Sandahl > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > > > > On 2014-02-12, at 4:42 PM, Coseru, Cristian wrote: > > This is digressing from the main point of this thread, but let me just > add that once he became aware of Hitler's ulterior motives (after the > invasion of Russia), Bose jumped from the frying pan into the fire, so to > speak, by turning to the Japanese for the same sort of help (while fully > aware of Japan's own imperial ambitions in SE Asia). > > Best, > Christian > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 12, 2014, at 4:14 PM, "Bijlert, V.A. van" > wrote: > > Here I have to object. Bose was not really an admirer of the darkest > sides of Hitler and Bose was quite well aware of the intensely racist > nature of national socialism. But Bose was an Indian nationalist and > vehemently anti-British. Thus trying to get Hitler's help was based on the > principle 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. Hitler, incidentally, saw > nothing in Indian independence. > > Victor van Bijlert > > > > Op 12 feb. 2014 om 20:09 heeft "Coseru, Cristian" het > volgende geschreven: > > And let's not forget also that "Netaji" Subhas Chandra Bose was also a > great admirer of it (after all, he helped organize the Indian Legion in > Berlin from Indian subjects that had been formerly enlisted by the British > forces, and subsequently captured by the Axis powers in Africa; they sore > allegiance to both Hitler and Bose). > > Best, > Christian > > > Christian Coseru > Associate Professor of Philosophy > Department of Philosophy > College of Charleston > 66 George Street > Charleston, SC 29424 > > Office: > Phone: 843 953-1935 > Facsimile: 843 953-6388 > Email: coseruc at cofc.edu > Web: http://coseruc.people.cofc.edu/ > > > On Feb 12, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Stella Sandahl > wrote: > > About time to invoke it. But Golwalkar was a great admirer of Mein > Kampf, so banning it might upset Hindu feelings. Who knows. > Best > Stella > -- > Professor Stella Sandahl > Department of East Asian Studies > 130 St. George St. room 14087 > Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca > > Fax. (416) 978-5711 > > > > On 2014-02-12, at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > > Of course, Hitler's Mein Kampf is readily available in almost any Indian > bookstall. > I imagine that the small Bene Israel community never mobilized itself > to invoke Section 295-A..... > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://listinfo.indology.info/&k=xJ26TAwb97wzIimyhzPQ1w%3D%3D%0A&r=IcQhLA%2Bss0kVeAHcng%2BNXg%3D%3D%0A&m=wYvF5RL4Uc%2B20mSfMeu%2ByqGi8BYjnUwhcthm%2FHbPhIM%3D%0A&s=9745255971b487663acb6a86540205b9b90d441cf39119ce33d04edd9d8b40a9 > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl Fri Feb 14 08:02:25 2014 From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 14 08:02:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India/Popularity of Hitler Stories! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4BFF10EB-41A5-4434-BB2F-FF47AE61C6A4@vu.nl> I did not know about this author and the articles in Desh. Thanks for that. I would only like to add that Sri Aurobindo never had any doubts about the true evil character of national socialism and wholeheartedly supported the Allies. Op 14 feb. 2014 om 08:23 heeft "Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya" > het volgende geschreven: That was very fine! I have two additions to make. When he first published his belles-lettres Ali started with Chacha Kahini 'Anecdotes of the uncle'. Ali was a democrat and also an anti-British great nationalist patriot. However, perhaps because of his anti-British sentiments, initially Ali was not an opponent of Hitler. He himself admits that it was later when a blue-eyed Kashmiri was taken for a Jew and attacked by Hitler's musclemen that Ali understood the would be Nazis as an evil. Ali said these much later long after coming back to India. In the sixties he was writing again and commented on the Eichmann trial. He cited quite a few facts pointing to Eichmann's crimes. He had visited Germany more than once. How Ali -- admired on both the Bengals for his sarcastic writings, particularly in my University at Santiniketan where he lived for long -- viewed the British may be seen also in the Deshe Bideshe (In my land and abroad), a unique document on the rise and fall of Amanulla and Bachchai Sakao in the thirties. Here Ali does not hesitate to praise anti-British Russians, both exiled intellectuals and Soviet soldiers! Greetings DB On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti > wrote: Dear All, I have been stirred by Dr. Stella Sandahl to say something about the popularity of Hitler in West Bengal, India. I remember very well that in the sixties a very learned writer of Bengal, a polyglot, who spent a considerable time studying in Europe, particularly in Germany, was writing a series for the Bengali literary magazine Desh and his writings were being admired on all hands. The writer was Syed Muztaba Ali, publishing a series of belle?s letters on the Nazi violence in Europe, not so much like setting the grass aflame, but generating his tongue in cheek to shake the utmost depths of men?s hearts with horror. The Europe of that time had not been able to steer clear of the ashes of the Second World War and passive watchers of the war, as we Indians were, we were moved to read Ali?s numerous stories, which one did not write in a book of history. We read thus innumerable stories of Hitler?s invasions into the other European countries, along with Ali?s sweet and sour anecdotes; we learnt about different political and military strategies and tragedies, the condemned life of the Jews, the toothless life of a teenager called Anne Franck, who died in the Bergen-Belsen Camp in 1945, and we could more than ever take a look at numerous concentration camps of Europe with horror. I remember spending many a sleepless nights with the issues of the magazine. The inclusion of the series of writings gave a considerable hike to the sale of the magazine. During the last fifteen years I have tried to visit concentration camps in Germany, Czech Republic and Poland whenever I had the opportunity to attend seminars in the nearby places, though the experiences were nonetheless heart-breaking. Regards Debabrata Chakrabarti ?This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.? ? Anandamayi Ma ?Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.? - Paracelsus ________________________________ From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:54:35 -0500 To: CoseruC at cofc.edu; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India A friend sent me this distressing information: "Actually, in a survey of ?strong? leaders conducted among Delhi University students some years ago, Hitler came out ahead of Gandhi." However, I wonder how much Delhi students actually know about Hitler. Best Stella -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 2014-02-12, at 4:42 PM, Coseru, Cristian wrote: This is digressing from the main point of this thread, but let me just add that once he became aware of Hitler's ulterior motives (after the invasion of Russia), Bose jumped from the frying pan into the fire, so to speak, by turning to the Japanese for the same sort of help (while fully aware of Japan's own imperial ambitions in SE Asia). Best, Christian Sent from my iPhone On Feb 12, 2014, at 4:14 PM, "Bijlert, V.A. van" > wrote: Here I have to object. Bose was not really an admirer of the darkest sides of Hitler and Bose was quite well aware of the intensely racist nature of national socialism. But Bose was an Indian nationalist and vehemently anti-British. Thus trying to get Hitler's help was based on the principle 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. Hitler, incidentally, saw nothing in Indian independence. Victor van Bijlert Op 12 feb. 2014 om 20:09 heeft "Coseru, Cristian" > het volgende geschreven: And let?s not forget also that "Netaji" Subhas Chandra Bose was also a great admirer of it (after all, he helped organize the Indian Legion in Berlin from Indian subjects that had been formerly enlisted by the British forces, and subsequently captured by the Axis powers in Africa; they sore allegiance to both Hitler and Bose). Best, Christian Christian Coseru Associate Professor of Philosophy Department of Philosophy College of Charleston 66 George Street Charleston, SC 29424 Office: Phone: 843 953-1935 Facsimile: 843 953-6388 Email: coseruc at cofc.edu Web: http://coseruc.people.cofc.edu/ On Feb 12, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Stella Sandahl > wrote: About time to invoke it. But Golwalkar was a great admirer of Mein Kampf, so banning it might upset Hindu feelings. Who knows. Best Stella -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Fax. (416) 978-5711 On 2014-02-12, at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: Of course, Hitler's Mein Kampf is readily available in almost any Indian bookstall. I imagine that the small Bene Israel community never mobilized itself to invoke Section 295-A..... Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://listinfo.indology.info/&k=xJ26TAwb97wzIimyhzPQ1w%3D%3D%0A&r=IcQhLA%2Bss0kVeAHcng%2BNXg%3D%3D%0A&m=wYvF5RL4Uc%2B20mSfMeu%2ByqGi8BYjnUwhcthm%2FHbPhIM%3D%0A&s=9745255971b487663acb6a86540205b9b90d441cf39119ce33d04edd9d8b40a9 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Fri Feb 14 08:12:26 2014 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 14 09:12:26 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > A friend sent me this distressing information: "Actually, in a survey of ?strong? leaders conducted among Delhi University students some years ago, Hitler came out ahead of Gandhi." However, I wonder how much Delhi students actually know about Hitler. The NYT ?? ha ?d? an interesting article on the present situation, though ?? ?? ?? not touch ?ing? explicitly on students: ?? http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/30/in-india-businesses-named-after-hitler-defend-their-decision/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0 One possible cause for the students' attitude stirring your astonishment might perhaps be sought in Gandhi's own ? ? and indeed disturbing appreciati ?ve remarks? of Hitler, ? judgments that may well continue to exercise an effect today? ?. Note that the following statements were all made during WW II: ? ?Letter to Rajkumari Amrit Kaur (Mai 1940): ?I do not consider Hitler to be as bad as he is depicted.? (Robert Payne, The Life and Death of Mahatma Gandhi. London 1969: 485). ?Hitler too is said to be self-sacrificing. He is violence incarnate. It is said he is a vegetarian. I find it difficult to imagine how, if he is one, he is able to countenance so much slaughter. Anyway, his is said to be a life of self-sacrifice. He has no vices. He has not married. His character is said to be clean. He is always alert.? Khadi Jagat, December 1941, and January 1942 (= Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi, vol. 81, no 638: 383 f). ?Although I am pained at his deeds, I can have no hatred even for Adolf Hitler.? Sarvodaya, January 1942 (= CWMG 81, no 736: 479). Gandhi's Christmas Letter to Hitler: ?Dear Friend, That I address you as a friend is no formality. I own no foes.? Letter to Adolf Hitler, December 24, 1940 (= CWMG 79, no 520: 453).? ?On Hitler and Mussolini, both "gentlemen": "I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions. Let them take possession of your beautiful island, with your many beautiful buildings. You will give all these, but neither your souls, nor your minds. If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourself, man, woman and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them? ?." Gandhi, To Every Briton. Harijan, 6-7-1940 (= CWMG 78, no 460: 387)? ?. >From such a background, and provided the students? ? referred to in the previous mails had only second-hand knowledge? ? of Hitler through first-hand knowledge of Gandhi's publicized statements, or even through third-hand knowledge only of a widely held, internalized attitude of that sort, ? ?the matter could *perhaps* become better explicable.? ?I just wanted to bring this to your notice, no intentions of opening another thread!? ?Regards, WS? ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. 2014-02-13 21:54 GMT+01:00 Stella Sandahl : > A friend sent me this distressing information: "Actually, in a survey of > ?strong? leaders conducted among Delhi University students some years ago, > Hitler came out ahead of Gandhi." > However, I wonder how much Delhi students actually know about Hitler. > Best > Stella > > -- > Stella Sandahl > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > > > > On 2014-02-12, at 4:42 PM, Coseru, Cristian wrote: > > This is digressing from the main point of this thread, but let me just > add that once he became aware of Hitler's ulterior motives (after the > invasion of Russia), Bose jumped from the frying pan into the fire, so to > speak, by turning to the Japanese for the same sort of help (while fully > aware of Japan's own imperial ambitions in SE Asia). > > Best, > Christian > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 12, 2014, at 4:14 PM, "Bijlert, V.A. van" > wrote: > > Here I have to object. Bose was not really an admirer of the darkest > sides of Hitler and Bose was quite well aware of the intensely racist > nature of national socialism. But Bose was an Indian nationalist and > vehemently anti-British. Thus trying to get Hitler's help was based on the > principle 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. Hitler, incidentally, saw > nothing in Indian independence. > > Victor van Bijlert > > > > Op 12 feb. 2014 om 20:09 heeft "Coseru, Cristian" het > volgende geschreven: > > And let?s not forget also that "Netaji" Subhas Chandra Bose was also a > great admirer of it (after all, he helped organize the Indian Legion in > Berlin from Indian subjects that had been formerly enlisted by the British > forces, and subsequently captured by the Axis powers in Africa; they sore > allegiance to both Hitler and Bose). > > Best, > Christian > > > Christian Coseru > Associate Professor of Philosophy > Department of Philosophy > College of Charleston > 66 George Street > Charleston, SC 29424 > > Office: > Phone: 843 953-1935 > Facsimile: 843 953-6388 > Email: coseruc at cofc.edu > Web: http://coseruc.people.cofc.edu/ > > > On Feb 12, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Stella Sandahl > wrote: > > About time to invoke it. But Golwalkar was a great admirer of Mein > Kampf, so banning it might upset Hindu feelings. Who knows. > Best > Stella > -- > Professor Stella Sandahl > Department of East Asian Studies > 130 St. George St. room 14087 > Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca > > Fax. (416) 978-5711 > > > > On 2014-02-12, at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > > Of course, Hitler's Mein Kampf is readily available in almost any Indian > bookstall. > I imagine that the small Bene Israel community never mobilized itself > to invoke Section 295-A..... > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://listinfo.indology.info/&k=xJ26TAwb97wzIimyhzPQ1w%3D%3D%0A&r=IcQhLA%2Bss0kVeAHcng%2BNXg%3D%3D%0A&m=wYvF5RL4Uc%2B20mSfMeu%2ByqGi8BYjnUwhcthm%2FHbPhIM%3D%0A&s=9745255971b487663acb6a86540205b9b90d441cf39119ce33d04edd9d8b40a9 > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Fri Feb 14 08:27:00 2014 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 14 09:27:00 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Publication_Announcment_Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81y=C4=81_V?= Message-ID: <20140214092700.Horde.lpT3ZOK6iSN76YcUcshYdg1@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Dear colleagues, It is with great pleasure that we announce the release of our latest publication: Mok?op?ya. Das F?nfte Buch. Upa??ntiprakara?a. Kritische Edition von Susanne Krause-Stinner und Peter Stephan. (Anonymus Casmiriensis: Mok?op?ya. Historisch-kritische Gesamtausgabe. Herausgegeben unter der Leitung von Walter Slaje. Textedition. Teil 4). [Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur, Mainz. Ver?ffentlichungen der Indologischen Kommission]. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2013. http://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/title_3647.ahtml With best regards Peter Stephan Susanne Krause-Stinner Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Seminar f?r Indologie Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06099 Halle (Saale) -- Dr. Roland Steiner Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Seminar f?r Indologie Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06099 Halle (Saale) Tel.: +49-345-55-23656 Fax.: +49-345-55-27211 URL: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/ E-Mail: roland.steiner at indologie.uni-halle.de From francois.voegeli at gmail.com Fri Feb 14 08:31:49 2014 From: francois.voegeli at gmail.com (Francois Voegeli) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 14 09:31:49 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India/Popularity of Hitler Stories! In-Reply-To: <4BFF10EB-41A5-4434-BB2F-FF47AE61C6A4@vu.nl> Message-ID: > I did not know about this author and the articles in Desh. Thanks for that. I would only like to add that Sri Aurobindo never had any doubts about the true evil character of national socialism and wholeheartedly supported the Allies. Any precise reference to ?r? Aurobindo's statement in his literature (Complete Works?) would be welcomed. Thanks in advance. Dr Fran?ois Voegeli Senior FNS Researcher Institut d'Arch?ologie et des Sciences de l'Antiquit? Anthropole, bureau 4018 Facult? des Lettres Universit? de Lausanne CH-1015 Lausanne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de Fri Feb 14 09:15:19 2014 From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 14 09:15:19 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #426 Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D943FC82DAE@UM-excdag-a02.um.gwdg.de> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Maitreyanatha: Abhisamayalamkaranamaprajnaparamitopadesasastra revised: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#Abhis Visnu-Purana (plain text / text with pada markers / pada index): http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#ViPCE __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl Fri Feb 14 13:30:06 2014 From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 14 13:30:06 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India/Popularity of Hitler Stories! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The sources are: The Life of Sri Aurobindo, by A.B.Purani, published by the Sri Aurobindo Ashram, 1978 edition, pp 228-9 referring to Aurobindo financial contribution to the war effort, pp 262-263 which is a long passage taken from Sri Aurbindo 'On Himself'1972, and p 283. The new volume 'On Himself' is available for downloading from the Ashram itself. ________________________________ Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert Associate professor Religious Studies Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions Faculty of Theology, VU University De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl +31613184203 ________________________________ From: Francois Voegeli [francois.voegeli at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:31 AM To: Bijlert, V.A. van Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India/Popularity of Hitler Stories! I did not know about this author and the articles in Desh. Thanks for that. I would only like to add that Sri Aurobindo never had any doubts about the true evil character of national socialism and wholeheartedly supported the Allies. Any precise reference to ?r? Aurobindo's statement in his literature (Complete Works?) would be welcomed. Thanks in advance. Dr Fran?ois Voegeli Senior FNS Researcher Institut d'Arch?ologie et des Sciences de l'Antiquit? Anthropole, bureau 4018 Facult? des Lettres Universit? de Lausanne CH-1015 Lausanne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl Fri Feb 14 13:37:43 2014 From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 14 13:37:43 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India/Popularity of Hitler Stories! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is the link to the digital edition of Sri Aurobindo's writings: http://www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/writings.php ________________________________ Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert Associate professor Religious Studies Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions Faculty of Theology, VU University De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl +31613184203 ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Bijlert, V.A. van [v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl] Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 2:30 PM To: Francois Voegeli Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India/Popularity of Hitler Stories! The sources are: The Life of Sri Aurobindo, by A.B.Purani, published by the Sri Aurobindo Ashram, 1978 edition, pp 228-9 referring to Aurobindo financial contribution to the war effort, pp 262-263 which is a long passage taken from Sri Aurbindo 'On Himself'1972, and p 283. The new volume 'On Himself' is available for downloading from the Ashram itself. ________________________________ Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert Associate professor Religious Studies Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions Faculty of Theology, VU University De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl +31613184203 ________________________________ From: Francois Voegeli [francois.voegeli at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:31 AM To: Bijlert, V.A. van Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India/Popularity of Hitler Stories! I did not know about this author and the articles in Desh. Thanks for that. I would only like to add that Sri Aurobindo never had any doubts about the true evil character of national socialism and wholeheartedly supported the Allies. Any precise reference to ?r? Aurobindo's statement in his literature (Complete Works?) would be welcomed. Thanks in advance. Dr Fran?ois Voegeli Senior FNS Researcher Institut d'Arch?ologie et des Sciences de l'Antiquit? Anthropole, bureau 4018 Facult? des Lettres Universit? de Lausanne CH-1015 Lausanne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shrigodani at gmail.com Sat Feb 15 06:30:31 2014 From: shrigodani at gmail.com (Shrikrishna Dani) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 14 04:30:31 -0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: International conference commemorating Bhaskaracharya's 900th anniversary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am pleased to inform you that the Indian Society for History of Mathematics will be organizing an International conference at Pune, during November 27-30, 2014, which will be hosted jointly by three institutions, the Departments of Mathematics of the University of Pune and IISER, Pune and the Bhaskaracharya Pratishthana, Pune. The event will commemorate the 900 th anniversary of Bhaskaracharya. The theme will be broad-based, covering a broad range of topics in history of mathematics of various cultures from the world. There will also be a session dedicated to the works of Bhaskaracharya. Prof. S.A. Katre from the Department of Mathematics, University of Pune, will be the Convener. On behalf of the organizers I am pleased to invite you to participate and contribute to the success of the conference. I trust you will plan on coming for the confernce. Please do let me have your inputs, and suggestions regarding the conference. Kindly keep in touch so that we could let you know more as the arrangements take shape. I may mention that there is also a tentative plan to hold a short workshop in Mumbai preceding the Pune event. I will write to you again in this respect. I keenly look forward to your participation. Kindly also forward the information about the conference to others around you who may be interested, with a copy to bhaskaratwo at gmail.com (so that we could follow it up from there). Alternatively, if you send the names (with e-mail addresses if possible) we shall get in touch with them directly. Looking forward to hearing from you, With best regards, S.G. Dani President, ISHM -- Prof. S.G. Dani Department of Mathematics Indian Institute of Technology Bombay Powai, Mumbai 400076, India Tel: +9122 25767453 (Office) 25768453(Home) Mobile: +919757282263 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sat Feb 15 17:18:23 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 14 12:18:23 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Periya_Tirumo=E1=B8=BBi_8.2.2?= Message-ID: <8D0F8891015CFD3-1AF0-12762@webmail-m299.sysops.aol.com> Even with the understanding that the devotional poems of the Vai??ava saints do not strictly follow the conventions of the Classical Tamil love poetry, the interpretation of Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is perplexing. Here is the verse given in Periya Tirumo?i Ira???m Tokuti (with Periyav?cc?? Pi??ai's commentary translated into Tamil by Ti. V?. K?p?laiyar) produced by EFEO and published by Teyvac C?kki??r Caivacitt?ntap P??ac?lai, Ta?c?v?r, 2006, p. 962. n?? nil? mu??attu ni??u iva? n?kki???; k??um?, Ka??apuram! e??u k???i???; p??a??r ti??am irukka, i?i, iva? n??um?? na??u na??u Na?aiy?rarkk?! The verse is supposed to be the utterance of a mother about her daughter in love with Vi??u. The traditional commentary (p. 965) explains 'p?????r' in the verse by relating it to the Classical Tamil Marutam genre in which the bard acts as a messenger from the husband to his wife , who is mad at him for having gone to the other woman. But then it goes on to explain that 'p??a??r' represents the religious teachers, who act to bring the souls toward 'God' and that in the verse the girl is resolute in her faith because of the religious teachers. And the mother concludes that the resolute girl will not be bashful in expressing her love toward Vi??u. See attachment. I am not convinced by the commentary's explanation about the association with Marutam, the resoluteness of the bard, who is referred to in a very respectful way, and the lack of bashfulness of the girl. The respectful way the bard is mentioned suggests more of Mullai. Won't a better interpretation be that the mother talks about her daughter, a maiden, who sends a message to her beloved through the bard; the bard comes back with the message that the hero will join her soon; emboldened by this certainty, the maiden has no bashfulness in expressing her love; and the mother is critical of the hero for causing this immodest behavior in her daughter? (Of course, many ti?ai conventions are violated here too.) I would appreciate any comments on this verse and possible interpretations. Thanks in advance Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PeriyaTirumoli8.2.2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 775291 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Sun Feb 16 15:10:55 2014 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 14 07:10:55 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Wendy Doniger's book to be withdrawn in India by Penguin India In-Reply-To: <6387956D22BE9F4BA569E78BF85B528D5A9006D2@HARVANDMBX06.fasmail.priv> Message-ID: Members may be interested in this editorial that appeared in The Hindu. http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/totalising-history-silencing-dissent/article5690041.ece?homepage=true George Hart From jenni.cover at ursys.com.au Sun Feb 16 23:57:57 2014 From: jenni.cover at ursys.com.au (Jennifer Cover) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 14 10:57:57 +1100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Grammatical Pun Reference Message-ID: Dear Sanskritists, I haven't been able to find a reference in P??ini grammar for a verse utilising a grammatical pun. The pun involves turning *ma* into *sa*. Our teachers are indeed the most accomplished grammarians who can substitute equality (*samat?*) for ownership (*mamat?*), turning *mamat?* into *samat?*. They have the best grammar. ?????? ???????????? ?????????????? ? ?????? ?????????? ????? ???????? ?? ??? sutar?? guravo'sm?ka? vaiy?kara?asattam?? | ?di?ya mamat?sth?ne samat?? s?dhayanti ye ||9|| I would be grateful for any help. Many thanks, Jennifer Cover (PhD) Sydney -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Mon Feb 17 00:33:11 2014 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 14 00:33:11 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Grammatical Pun Reference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0822FC0@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Dear Ms. Cover, I recall seeing similar verses that play on phonetically close words yielding opposite meaning, in this case the contrast between egotism and equanimity. I am not sure that it is to be classed as a "grammatical pun," however, but perhaps as a type of anupraasa, 'assonance, alliteration,' such as var.nasaamya, 'phonetic similarity.' But it's really out of my area and I will be pleased to be enlightened by some of the list's aala.mkaarikas. good luck, Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Feb 17 02:56:11 2014 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 14 21:56:11 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Grammatical Pun Reference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Jennifer, I looked up the verse and its commentary (Bodhas?ra of Narahari, Banaras Sanskrit Series, edn, p. 63). It appears to me that referring Gurus who replace mamat? with samat?, the verse is poetically calling the Gurus the best of Grammarians. The verse is using the grammatical trope of instituting a replacement (?de?a) in the place of (sth?na) something. The process of replacement effectively removes the original and brings into existence the replacement. Pata?jali defines the original (sth?nin) as ya? bh?tv? na bhavati, and ?de?a "replacement" as ya? abh?tv? bhavati. Narahari's verse is not referring to any actual grammatical rule that replaces "ma" with "sa", but is simply referring to the idea of replacement in the grammar. At least that is what it seems to be. Madhav Deshpande On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Jennifer Cover wrote: > Dear Sanskritists, > > I haven't been able to find a reference in P??ini grammar for a verse > utilising a grammatical pun. The pun involves turning *ma* into *sa*. > > Our teachers are indeed the most accomplished grammarians > who can substitute equality (*samat?*) for ownership (*mamat?*), > turning *mamat?* into *samat?*. > They have the best grammar. > > ?????? ???????????? ?????????????? ? > ?????? ?????????? ????? ???????? ?? ??? > > sutar?? guravo'sm?ka? vaiy?kara?asattam?? | > ?di?ya mamat?sth?ne samat?? s?dhayanti ye ||9|| > > I would be grateful for any help. > Many thanks, > Jennifer Cover (PhD) > Sydney > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tubb at uchicago.edu Mon Feb 17 04:58:46 2014 From: tubb at uchicago.edu (Gary Tubb) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 14 10:28:46 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Additions to Muktabodha Digital Library In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <53019706.6030705@uchicago.edu> Forwarded at the request of Harry Spier : Dear list members, Two new searchable e-texts have been added to the Muktabodha Digital Library www.muktabodha.org pr?ya?cittasamuccaya copied from NGMCP 5-2402 Reel B 427/2 The subject matter is rites of expiation. mohac??ottaram copied from NGMCP 5-1977 Reel A 182/2 The subject matter is Shaiva temple architecture and Linga installation. Harry Spier Manager, Muktabodha Digital Library -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de Mon Feb 17 17:47:51 2014 From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 14 17:47:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #427 Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D943FC83046@UM-excdag-a02.um.gwdg.de> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Dandin: Kavyadarsa, Pariccheda 3: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#DandKav3 __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm From ute.huesken at ikos.uio.no Tue Feb 18 00:53:38 2014 From: ute.huesken at ikos.uio.no (Ute Huesken) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 14 01:53:38 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: H-ASIA: Position Hindi, Aarhus Univ., Teaching Asst prof. Message-ID: <5c15680b2eaa1f6838a27078d994bdab@ulrik.uio.no> H-ASIA February 17, 2014 Position: Hindi, Teaching Assistant Professorship, Aarhus University ******************************************************************** From: H-Net Job Guide: JOB GUIDE NO: https://www.h-net.org/jobs/job_display.php?id=48463 [1] Aarhus University, Department of Culture and Society Teaching assistant professorship in Hindi Institution Type: College / University Location: Denmark Position: Assistant Professor Department of Culture and Society invites applications for a teaching assistant professorship in Hindi. The position is affiliated with the South Asia studies programme at Asia studies, and the teaching assistant professorship involves teaching Hindi courses in the Bachelors degree programme in South Asia studies and the Masters degree programme in Asia studies (India and South Asia). The teaching assistant professorship is a permanent position dedicated to full-time teaching, including 20% for developing the subject area. The appointment begins on 1 August 2014 or as soon as possible thereafter. The position We are seeking an innovative and dedicated candidate who has a perfect command of Hindi in writing and speech, preferably a native speaker of Hindi, and who can document experience in teaching Hindi as a foreign language. The teaching assistant professor will receive educational supervision. The position also requires: A proactive interest in new methods in the field of foreign language pedagogy and didactics relevant to and with potential for the teaching of Hindi at Aarhus University including an interest in the development of the possibilities for web-based or online Hindi courses Understanding of the relationship between Hindi and other South Asian languages in the area in order to communicate the major role of Hindi within the diversity of regional languages and the significance of Hindi in terms of linguistic history Ability to and interest in initiating and partaking in projects that deal with the development of language courses and language didactics in cooperation with other language-based programmes at Aarhus University and in an international context Support for the responsible associate professor in the establishment of new contacts to South Asian exchange universities and maintenance of existing contacts Supervision of the departments Hindi intern and coordination of the content of language courses Experience of or interest in knowledge exchange For more information on the position, please contact Associate Professor Uwe Skoda, tel. +45 8716 2325, mail ostus at hum.au.dk. Qualifications Employment as teaching assistant professor requires a Masters degree in Hindi or similar academic qualifications. A relevant PhD degree would be an advantage, but not a prerequisite. Applicants must have relevant experience of teaching Hindi as a foreign language. Theoretical qualifications in language pedagogy and foreign language teaching as well as knowledge of technology-based language courses will also be important assets. Please note that it is possible to attach a teaching portfolio to the application (see the guide for applicants), The application must be uploaded in English. The teaching assistant professor must contribute to the facultys academic environment by being present on a daily basis. We emphasise the importance of good working relationships, both among colleagues and to our students. Given the increasingly international focus of the programme, the future teaching assistant professor will be expected to teach in English. If the successful teaching assistant professor is not fluent in Danish, he or she will be expected to learn Danish within a period of approximately two years. Latest at the end of an agreed transition period, we expect the teaching assistant professor to have a sufficient command of Danish to teach courses in translation between Danish and Hindi and to teach Hindi grammar courses in Danish. For more information about applications and the appointment procedure, please contact HR partner Louise Sndergaarad, e-mail ls at hum.au.dk South Asia Studies South Asia studies is a language-based area study with special focus on the social conditions, history, culture, politics and language of modern India / South Asia (including Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh). The programme is offered by the Department of Culture and Society, which involves working with other language-based area studies as well as with anthropology, the study of religion, and history on research, education and communication at the highest international level. The programme also works closely with Contemporary India Study Centre Aarhus (CISCA), which organises annual conferences and seminars, attracts visiting scholars from India and promotes exchange of students and teachers. We offer an informal working environment and an academic environment that supports cooperation on teaching activities as well as on research projects and international conferences. The language courses provide students with the ability to communicate in Hindi and are a prerequisite for using the available written and oral sources in Hindi. The language is regarded as a tool for gaining insight into modern India, and language skills are the foundation for research and teaching at the highest international level within this field. Department of Culture and Society Asia studies are anchored at the Department of Culture and Society, where the object of research and teaching is the interplay between culture and society in time and space: - From the traditional disciplines of the humanities and theology to applied social research - From Antiquity to the issues facing contemporary societies - From familiar Danish cultural forms to other very different worlds - From local questions to global challenges The departments goal is to produce compelling research with an international resonance, as well as offering teaching and talent development of high quality. The department is closely linked to society, both in Denmark and abroad, and contributes to social innovation, research communication and further and continuing education. For a more detailed description of the department, please visit this website. Faculty of Arts The Faculty of Arts is one of four main academic areas at Aarhus University. The faculty contributes to Aarhus Universitys research, education, talent development and knowledge exchange activities. With its 800 academic staff members, 300 PhD students, 13,000 BA and MA students, and 2,500 students following continuing/further education programmes, the faculty constitutes a strong and diverse research and teaching environment. The Faculty of Arts consists of the Department of Aesthetics and Communication, the Department of Culture and Society, the Department of Education, the Centre for Teaching Development and Digital Media, and the AU Centre for Entrepreneurship & Innovation. Each of these units has strong academic environments that form the basis for interdisciplinary research and education. The faculty's research and teaching activities take place within the context of extensive international collaboration and share the common goal of contributing to the development of knowledge, welfare and culture in close interaction with society. Read more at arts.au.dk/en/ Formalities The Faculty of Humanities refers to the Ministerial Order on the Appointment of Academic Staff at Danish Universities under the Danish Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation. Appointment shall be in accordance with the collective labour agreement between the Danish Ministry of Finance and the Danish Confederation of Professional Associations. Further information on qualification requirements and job content may be found in the Memorandum on Job Structure for Academic Staff at Danish Universities. Further information on application and relevant enclosures may be found in the Guidelines for applicants for academic positions. Degree certificate (copy), curriculum vitae, complete list of publications and verified information on previous teaching experience must be submitted with the application. All interested are urged to apply irrespective of personal background. Deadline All applications must be made online and received by: 24 March 2014 Please apply online here Aarhus University offers an inspiring education and research environment for 44,500 students and 11,500 members of staff, ensuring results of a high international standard. The budgeted turnover for 2014 amounts to DKK 6.2 billion. The university's strategy and development contract are available at www.au.dk/en [2]. Contact: For more information about applications and the appointment procedure, please contact HR partner Louise Sndergaarad, e-mail ls at hum.au.dk Website: http://cas.au.dk/en/about-the-department/department-profile/ [3] Primary Category: None Secondary Categories: Area Studies Asian History / Studies Linguistics Posting Date: 02/17/2014 Closing Date 03/24/2014 The H-Net Job Guide is a service to the profession provided by H-Net. The information provided for individual listings is the responsibility of the organization posting the position. If you are interested in a particular position, please contact the organization directly. Send comments and questions about this service to H-Net Job Guide. Humanities & Social Sciences Online Copyright 1995-2014 ********************************************************************** To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: H-ASIA at h-net.msu.edu For holidays or short absences send post to: with message: SET H-ASIA NOMAIL Upon return, send post with message SET H-ASIA MAIL H-ASIA WEB HOMEPAGE URL: http://h-net.msu.edu/~asia/ [4] -- Links: ------ [1] https://www.h-net.org/jobs/job_display.php?id=48463 [2] http://www.au.dk/en [3] http://cas.au.dk/en/about-the-department/department-profile/ [4] http://h-net.msu.edu/~asia/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Wed Feb 19 05:40:59 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 14 00:40:59 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]__Periya_Tirumo=E1=B8=BBi_8.2.2?= In-Reply-To: <8D0FB4AEEBDD487-250C-6E79@webmail-m128.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0FB4C4D21EDDA-250C-6ED9@webmail-m128.sysops.aol.com> I think the solution to the problem presented by Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is given by Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. What I am giving below is the poem based on the critical edition by Eva Wilden but with gemination of consonants shown in pu?arcci. pul v?? i??ik kal ivar ve? v?r varai i?i aruviyi? t???um n??a? t?tu il ne?cattuk ki?avi namvayin vanta??u v??i t??i n?mum ney pey t?yi? etirko??u t?m ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukam t?t? The translation below is basically Eva Wilden's except that I have changed 'ghee' to 'oil' for ney. Word has come to us, oh friend, from the faultless heart of the man from a land where, like the waterfall descending the mountain, appears the stone-climbing white root of the talbot fig with low aerial roots, After receiving [his words] like fire into which oil is poured, we too shall send a message saying 'we are still those he united with.' While ney can mean both oil and ghee, ney pey t? simply refers to a situation of 'adding fuel to the fire' as in the following passage from Arttamu??a Intumatam by Kannadasan, showing the common usage of oil being poured into a fire. "???;????? ???? ??????????????, ?????????????? ?????????. ???????? ????? ??????? ???????????? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????????. ??? ????? ??????????????????, ???? ???????????????? ??????? ????????????????? ??????????????????." The notes given by UVS to Ku?untokai 106 show that the commentator I?amp?ra?ar considers the poem to describe a pre-marital situation in which the heroine does not dislike/is not angry at the messenger from the hero. But Nacci??rkki?iyar, another commentator, thinks the poem deals with a situation after marriage. A comment by P?r?ciriyar, another commentator, that receiving 'like fire into which ney is poured', is not possible in a pre-marital situation. May be he associates ney being poured into the fire with the Vedic fire ritual. I do not consider that a likely scenario. In contrast, I?amp?ra?ar's discussion of the poem in Ka?aviyal makes more sense. Wilden is right in translating 'ma?a-' as 'unite' and not as 'marry' as some scholars have done. The waterfall and mountain clearly suggest Ku?i?ci as the landscape, as some scholars have considered. There is nothing in the poem that suggests that there is an 'other woman' in the picture. So I do not agree with T. V. Gopal Iyer's view that this poem belongs to Marutam. Who is the messenger here? According to Tolk?ppiyam Poru?atik?ram, those who are allowed to speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love include p?rpp?? (brahmin/priest), p??ka? (companion), heroine's friend, heroine's foster mother, hero and heroine. Although the commentary for I?aiya??r Ka?aviyal 3 identifies the companion as a p?rpp??, Nacci??rkki?iyar (commentary for Ka?aviyal 10) only says that the companion is "perump??mai p?rpp???m", i.e., in majority of the instances the companion is a brahmin/priest. Although poems like Ku?untokai 156 suggest the companion being a brahmin/priest, Na??i?ai 250 and Na??i?ai 370, in both of which, the hero invites the bard to laugh with him, suggest that the companion could have been a bard earlier. Moreover Nacci??rkki?iyar in his commentary on Tol. P. 193 refers to p??a? as p??ku pa??o?ukum p??a? and p??i?i as talaivim???up p??k?yo?ukum p??i?i even as Tol.P. 193 lists p??ka? separately from the bard and his female counterpart. Interestingly, in their commentaries to the s?tra beginning with "ava?a?i v???a", I?amp?ra?ar considers Na??i?ai 90 as spoken to the hero's companion. But Nacci??kki?iyar considers the same poem as spoken to the bard. Thus whatever be the view of the later grammarians in classifying the companions as distinct from the bards and that only companions could speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love, the internal evidence from the poems suggest that the bards could have been companions too. If that were accepted then, they could have served as messengers not only after marriage but before marriage too. If that were accepted, Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2, makes eminent sense. A maiden being in love with the hero (Vi??u), the bard (p??a??r interpreted as religious teacher) acting as a messenger, and the girl being resolute in passion towards Vi??u, all fit the pre-marital love scenario with no 'other woman' being present. The lack of anger towards the messenger also explains the honorific form, p??a??r. I would appreciate any comments on this solution. Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa To: indology Sent: Sat, Feb 15, 2014 11:19 am Subject: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Even with the understanding that the devotional poems of the Vai??ava saints do not strictly follow the conventions of the Classical Tamil love poetry, the interpretation of Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is perplexing. Here is the verse given in Periya Tirumo?i Ira???m Tokuti (with Periyav?cc?? Pi??ai's commentary translated into Tamil by Ti. V?. K?p?laiyar) produced by EFEO and published by Teyvac C?kki??r Caivacitt?ntap P??ac?lai, Ta?c?v?r, 2006, p. 962. n?? nil? mu??attu ni??u iva? n?kki???; k??um?, Ka??apuram! e??u k???i???; p??a??r ti??am irukka, i?i, iva? n??um?? na??u na??u Na?aiy?rarkk?! The verse is supposed to be the utterance of a mother about her daughter in love with Vi??u. The traditional commentary (p. 965) explains 'p?????r' in the verse by relating it to the Classical Tamil Marutam genre in which the bard acts as a messenger from the husband to his wife , who is mad at him for having gone to the other woman. But then it goes on to explain that 'p??a??r' represents the religious teachers, who act to bring the souls toward 'God' and that in the verse the girl is resolute in her faith because of the religious teachers. And the mother concludes that the resolute girl will not be bashful in expressing her love toward Vi??u. See attachment. I am not convinced by the commentary's explanation about the association with Marutam, the resoluteness of the bard, who is referred to in a very respectful way, and the lack of bashfulness of the girl. The respectful way the bard is mentioned suggests more of Mullai. Won't a better interpretation be that the mother talks about her daughter, a maiden, who sends a message to her beloved through the bard; the bard comes back with the message that the hero will join her soon; emboldened by this certainty, the maiden has no bashfulness in expressing her love; and the mother is critical of the hero for causing this immodest behavior in her daughter? (Of course, many ti?ai conventions are violated here too.) I would appreciate any comments on this verse and possible interpretations. Thanks in advance Regards, Palaniappan _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Wed Feb 19 07:54:35 2014 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 14 07:54:35 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Periya_Tirumo=E1=B8=BBi_8.2.2?= In-Reply-To: <8D0FB4C4D21EDDA-250C-6ED9@webmail-m128.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: As I have argued before (?The weaver bird in Old Tamil Ca?kam poetry: a critical essay on the method of translating classical Tamil poetry?. Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik 21, 1997: 293-319, esp. pp. 307-8,) fire into which ghee is poured flares up. If at all, it is an image of anger. See, for instance, P???yakulodaya 3. 59: pr?jyam ?jyam upayujya jr?mbhata? p?vakasya vidadhe pradak?i?am. In the Ku?untokai poem, however, we seem to be dealing with the fire circumambulated seven times by the couple at the wedding ceremony; read my article! Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: woensdag 19 februari 2014 6:40 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 I think the solution to the problem presented by Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is given by Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. What I am giving below is the poem based on the critical edition by Eva Wilden but with gemination of consonants shown in pu?arcci. pul v?? i??ik kal ivar ve? v?r varai i?i aruviyi? t???um n??a? t?tu il ne?cattuk ki?avi namvayin vanta??u v??i t??i n?mum ney pey t?yi? etirko??u t?m ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukam t?t? The translation below is basically Eva Wilden's except that I have changed 'ghee' to 'oil' for ney. Word has come to us, oh friend, from the faultless heart of the man from a land where, like the waterfall descending the mountain, appears the stone-climbing white root of the talbot fig with low aerial roots, After receiving [his words] like fire into which oil is poured, we too shall send a message saying 'we are still those he united with.' While ney can mean both oil and ghee, ney pey t? simply refers to a situation of 'adding fuel to the fire' as in the following passage from Arttamu??a Intumatam by Kannadasan, showing the common usage of oil being poured into a fire. "???; ????? ???? ??????????????, ?????????????? ?????????. ???????? ????? ??????? ???????????? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????????. ??? ????? ??????? ???????????, ???? ???????????????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ??????????????????." The notes given by UVS to Ku?untokai 106 show that the commentator I?amp?ra?ar considers the poem to describe a pre-marital situation in which the heroine does not dislike/is not angry at the messenger from the hero. But Nacci??rkki?iyar, another commentator, thinks the poem deals with a situation after marriage. A comment by P?r?ciriyar, another commentator, that receiving 'like fire into which ney is poured', is not possible in a pre-marital situation. May be he associates ney being poured into the fire with the Vedic fire ritual. I do not consider that a likely scenario. In contrast, I?amp?ra?ar's discussion of the poem in Ka?aviyal makes more sense. Wilden is right in translating 'ma?a-' as 'unite' and not as 'marry' as some scholars have done. The waterfall and mountain clearly suggest Ku?i?ci as the landscape, as some scholars have considered. There is nothing in the poem that suggests that there is an 'other woman' in the picture. So I do not agree with T. V. Gopal Iyer's view that this poem belongs to Marutam. Who is the messenger here? According to Tolk?ppiyam Poru?atik?ram, those who are allowed to speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love include p?rpp?? (brahmin/priest), p??ka? (companion), heroine's friend, heroine's foster mother, hero and heroine. Although the commentary for I?aiya??r Ka?aviyal 3 identifies the companion as a p?rpp??, Nacci??rkki?iyar (commentary for Ka?aviyal 10) only says that the companion is "perump??mai p?rpp???m", i.e., in majority of the instances the companion is a brahmin/priest. Although poems like Ku?untokai 156 suggest the companion being a brahmin/priest, Na??i?ai 250 and Na??i?ai 370, in both of which, the hero invites the bard to laugh with him, suggest that the companion could have been a bard earlier. Moreover Nacci??rkki?iyar in his commentary on Tol. P. 193 refers to p??a? as p??ku pa??o?ukum p??a? and p??i?i as talaivim???up p??k?yo?ukum p??i?i even as Tol.P. 193 lists p??ka? separately from the bard and his female counterpart. Interestingly, in their commentaries to the s?tra beginning with "ava?a?i v???a", I?amp?ra?ar considers Na??i?ai 90 as spoken to the hero's companion. But Nacci??kki?iyar considers the same poem as spoken to the bard. Thus whatever be the view of the later grammarians in classifying the companions as distinct from the bards and that only companions could speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love, the internal evidence from the poems suggest that the bards could have been companions too. If that were accepted then, they could have served as messengers not only after marriage but before marriage too. If that were accepted, Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2, makes eminent sense. A maiden being in love with the hero (Vi??u), the bard (p??a??r interpreted as religious teacher) acting as a messenger, and the girl being resolute in passion towards Vi??u, all fit the pre-marital love scenario with no 'other woman' being present. The lack of anger towards the messenger also explains the honorific form, p??a??r. I would appreciate any comments on this solution. Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa > To: indology > Sent: Sat, Feb 15, 2014 11:19 am Subject: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Even with the understanding that the devotional poems of the Vai??ava saints do not strictly follow the conventions of the Classical Tamil love poetry, the interpretation of Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is perplexing. Here is the verse given in Periya Tirumo?i Ira???m Tokuti (with Periyav?cc?? Pi??ai's commentary translated into Tamil by Ti. V?. K?p?laiyar) produced by EFEO and published by Teyvac C?kki??r Caivacitt?ntap P??ac?lai, Ta?c?v?r, 2006, p. 962. n?? nil? mu??attu ni??u iva? n?kki???; k??um?, Ka??apuram! e??u k???i???; p??a??r ti??am irukka, i?i, iva? n??um?? na??u na??u Na?aiy?rarkk?! The verse is supposed to be the utterance of a mother about her daughter in love with Vi??u. The traditional commentary (p. 965) explains 'p?????r' in the verse by relating it to the Classical Tamil Marutam genre in which the bard acts as a messenger from the husband to his wife , who is mad at him for having gone to the other woman. But then it goes on to explain that 'p??a??r' represents the religious teachers, who act to bring the souls toward 'God' and that in the verse the girl is resolute in her faith because of the religious teachers. And the mother concludes that the resolute girl will not be bashful in expressing her love toward Vi??u. See attachment. I am not convinced by the commentary's explanation about the association with Marutam, the resoluteness of the bard, who is referred to in a very respectful way, and the lack of bashfulness of the girl. The respectful way the bard is mentioned suggests more of Mullai. Won't a better interpretation be that the mother talks about her daughter, a maiden, who sends a message to her beloved through the bard; the bard comes back with the message that the hero will join her soon; emboldened by this certainty, the maiden has no bashfulness in expressing her love; and the mother is critical of the hero for causing this immodest behavior in her daughter? (Of course, many ti?ai conventions are violated here too.) I would appreciate any comments on this verse and possible interpretations. Thanks in advance Regards, Palaniappan _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Wed Feb 19 08:42:51 2014 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 14 08:42:51 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Periya_Tirumo=E1=B8=BBi_8.2.2?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An addendum: I forgot that I discussed Ku?untokai 106 also in my book ? that much maligned monster, which apparently nobody reads ? K?vya in South India. Old Tamil Ca?kam Poetry. Groningen 2001 (presently available through Brill), pp. 39-40. There, I also quoted R?maya?a 6.103.11: pa?yatas t?? tu r?masya bh?ya? krodho'bhyavartata prabh?t?jy?vasiktasya p?vakasyeva d?pyata?, As R?ma looked at her, his anger increased further. He flared up lie a fire into which a great quantity of ghee has been poured. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Tieken, H.J.H. [H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl] Verzonden: woensdag 19 februari 2014 8:54 To: palaniappa at aol.com; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 As I have argued before (?The weaver bird in Old Tamil Ca?kam poetry: a critical essay on the method of translating classical Tamil poetry?. Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik 21, 1997: 293-319, esp. pp. 307-8,) fire into which ghee is poured flares up. If at all, it is an image of anger. See, for instance, P???yakulodaya 3. 59: pr?jyam ?jyam upayujya jr?mbhata? p?vakasya vidadhe pradak?i?am. In the Ku?untokai poem, however, we seem to be dealing with the fire circumambulated seven times by the couple at the wedding ceremony; read my article! Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: woensdag 19 februari 2014 6:40 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 I think the solution to the problem presented by Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is given by Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. What I am giving below is the poem based on the critical edition by Eva Wilden but with gemination of consonants shown in pu?arcci. pul v?? i??ik kal ivar ve? v?r varai i?i aruviyi? t???um n??a? t?tu il ne?cattuk ki?avi namvayin vanta??u v??i t??i n?mum ney pey t?yi? etirko??u t?m ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukam t?t? The translation below is basically Eva Wilden's except that I have changed 'ghee' to 'oil' for ney. Word has come to us, oh friend, from the faultless heart of the man from a land where, like the waterfall descending the mountain, appears the stone-climbing white root of the talbot fig with low aerial roots, After receiving [his words] like fire into which oil is poured, we too shall send a message saying 'we are still those he united with.' While ney can mean both oil and ghee, ney pey t? simply refers to a situation of 'adding fuel to the fire' as in the following passage from Arttamu??a Intumatam by Kannadasan, showing the common usage of oil being poured into a fire. "???; ????? ???? ??????????????, ?????????????? ?????????. ???????? ????? ??????? ???????????? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????????. ??? ????? ??????? ???????????, ???? ???????????????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ??????????????????." The notes given by UVS to Ku?untokai 106 show that the commentator I?amp?ra?ar considers the poem to describe a pre-marital situation in which the heroine does not dislike/is not angry at the messenger from the hero. But Nacci??rkki?iyar, another commentator, thinks the poem deals with a situation after marriage. A comment by P?r?ciriyar, another commentator, that receiving 'like fire into which ney is poured', is not possible in a pre-marital situation. May be he associates ney being poured into the fire with the Vedic fire ritual. I do not consider that a likely scenario. In contrast, I?amp?ra?ar's discussion of the poem in Ka?aviyal makes more sense. Wilden is right in translating 'ma?a-' as 'unite' and not as 'marry' as some scholars have done. The waterfall and mountain clearly suggest Ku?i?ci as the landscape, as some scholars have considered. There is nothing in the poem that suggests that there is an 'other woman' in the picture. So I do not agree with T. V. Gopal Iyer's view that this poem belongs to Marutam. Who is the messenger here? According to Tolk?ppiyam Poru?atik?ram, those who are allowed to speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love include p?rpp?? (brahmin/priest), p??ka? (companion), heroine's friend, heroine's foster mother, hero and heroine. Although the commentary for I?aiya??r Ka?aviyal 3 identifies the companion as a p?rpp??, Nacci??rkki?iyar (commentary for Ka?aviyal 10) only says that the companion is "perump??mai p?rpp???m", i.e., in majority of the instances the companion is a brahmin/priest. Although poems like Ku?untokai 156 suggest the companion being a brahmin/priest, Na??i?ai 250 and Na??i?ai 370, in both of which, the hero invites the bard to laugh with him, suggest that the companion could have been a bard earlier. Moreover Nacci??rkki?iyar in his commentary on Tol. P. 193 refers to p??a? as p??ku pa??o?ukum p??a? and p??i?i as talaivim???up p??k?yo?ukum p??i?i even as Tol.P. 193 lists p??ka? separately from the bard and his female counterpart. Interestingly, in their commentaries to the s?tra beginning with "ava?a?i v???a", I?amp?ra?ar considers Na??i?ai 90 as spoken to the hero's companion. But Nacci??kki?iyar considers the same poem as spoken to the bard. Thus whatever be the view of the later grammarians in classifying the companions as distinct from the bards and that only companions could speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love, the internal evidence from the poems suggest that the bards could have been companions too. If that were accepted then, they could have served as messengers not only after marriage but before marriage too. If that were accepted, Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2, makes eminent sense. A maiden being in love with the hero (Vi??u), the bard (p??a??r interpreted as religious teacher) acting as a messenger, and the girl being resolute in passion towards Vi??u, all fit the pre-marital love scenario with no 'other woman' being present. The lack of anger towards the messenger also explains the honorific form, p??a??r. I would appreciate any comments on this solution. Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa > To: indology > Sent: Sat, Feb 15, 2014 11:19 am Subject: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Even with the understanding that the devotional poems of the Vai??ava saints do not strictly follow the conventions of the Classical Tamil love poetry, the interpretation of Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is perplexing. Here is the verse given in Periya Tirumo?i Ira???m Tokuti (with Periyav?cc?? Pi??ai's commentary translated into Tamil by Ti. V?. K?p?laiyar) produced by EFEO and published by Teyvac C?kki??r Caivacitt?ntap P??ac?lai, Ta?c?v?r, 2006, p. 962. n?? nil? mu??attu ni??u iva? n?kki???; k??um?, Ka??apuram! e??u k???i???; p??a??r ti??am irukka, i?i, iva? n??um?? na??u na??u Na?aiy?rarkk?! The verse is supposed to be the utterance of a mother about her daughter in love with Vi??u. The traditional commentary (p. 965) explains 'p?????r' in the verse by relating it to the Classical Tamil Marutam genre in which the bard acts as a messenger from the husband to his wife , who is mad at him for having gone to the other woman. But then it goes on to explain that 'p??a??r' represents the religious teachers, who act to bring the souls toward 'God' and that in the verse the girl is resolute in her faith because of the religious teachers. And the mother concludes that the resolute girl will not be bashful in expressing her love toward Vi??u. See attachment. I am not convinced by the commentary's explanation about the association with Marutam, the resoluteness of the bard, who is referred to in a very respectful way, and the lack of bashfulness of the girl. The respectful way the bard is mentioned suggests more of Mullai. Won't a better interpretation be that the mother talks about her daughter, a maiden, who sends a message to her beloved through the bard; the bard comes back with the message that the hero will join her soon; emboldened by this certainty, the maiden has no bashfulness in expressing her love; and the mother is critical of the hero for causing this immodest behavior in her daughter? (Of course, many ti?ai conventions are violated here too.) I would appreciate any comments on this verse and possible interpretations. Thanks in advance Regards, Palaniappan _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anurupa.n at ifpindia.org Wed Feb 19 10:57:00 2014 From: anurupa.n at ifpindia.org (Anurupa IFP) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 14 16:27:00 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India/Popularity of Hitler Stories! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1411913F57A44A8181380C1605415390@ifpindia.org> Following up on the messages below, here are some more references from Sri Aurobindo's works: Complete Works of Sri Aurobindo (CWSA), vol. 35 (Letters on Himself and the Ashram), pp. 211-221. Also CWSA, vol. 36 (Autobiographical Notes), pp. 103-104, Rs. 1000 donated towards the War Fund. These volumes can be downloaded from: http://www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/writings.php Many references to WWII are also found in "Talks with Sri Aurobindo" in 2 vols by Nirodbaran. Here is the link to the volumes: http://www.sriaurobindoashram.com/Contents.aspx?ParentCategoryName=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nirodbaran Ms. Anurupa Naik Head, Library and Publication Division French Institute of Pondicherry (IFP) UMIFRE 21 CNRS-MAEE P.B. 33 11, St. Louis Street Pondicherry-605 001, INDIA Tel: 91-413-2231660 Fax: 91-413-2231605 e-mail: anurupa.n at ifpindia.org website: www.ifpindia.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bijlert, V.A. van To: Francois Voegeli Cc: Indology List Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India/Popularity of Hitler Stories! Here is the link to the digital edition of Sri Aurobindo's writings: http://www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/writings.php ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert Associate professor Religious Studies Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions Faculty of Theology, VU University De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl +31613184203 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Bijlert, V.A. van [v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl] Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 2:30 PM To: Francois Voegeli Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India/Popularity of Hitler Stories! The sources are: The Life of Sri Aurobindo, by A.B.Purani, published by the Sri Aurobindo Ashram, 1978 edition, pp 228-9 referring to Aurobindo financial contribution to the war effort, pp 262-263 which is a long passage taken from Sri Aurbindo 'On Himself'1972, and p 283. The new volume 'On Himself' is available for downloading from the Ashram itself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert Associate professor Religious Studies Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions Faculty of Theology, VU University De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl +31613184203 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Francois Voegeli [francois.voegeli at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:31 AM To: Bijlert, V.A. van Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mein Kampf in India/Popularity of Hitler Stories! I did not know about this author and the articles in Desh. Thanks for that. I would only like to add that Sri Aurobindo never had any doubts about the true evil character of national socialism and wholeheartedly supported the Allies. Any precise reference to ?r? Aurobindo's statement in his literature (Complete Works?) would be welcomed. Thanks in advance. Dr Fran?ois Voegeli Senior FNS Researcher Institut d'Arch?ologie et des Sciences de l'Antiquit? Anthropole, bureau 4018 Facult? des Lettres Universit? de Lausanne CH-1015 Lausanne ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ssandahl at sympatico.ca Wed Feb 19 18:56:35 2014 From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 14 13:56:35 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mr. Batra, NCERT and Penguin Message-ID: I have learnt from a reliable source that Mr. Batra initiated no less than ten lawsuits against NCERT's (NCERT stands for National Council for Educational Research and Training) textbooks during the years 2004-2010. He lost all of them. Isn't it strange that Penguin so easily gives in, when NCERT fought back and won. One would assume that a great company like Penguin can manage the legal fees involved. Best to all Stella Sandahl Professor Stella Sandahl 9retired) Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Tel. (416) 978-4295 Fax. (416) 978-5711 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Thu Feb 20 06:42:08 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 01:42:08 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Periya_Tirumo=E1=B8=BBi_8.2.2?= Message-ID: <8D0FC1E027CF5BF-2880-FC8F@webmail-d145.sysops.aol.com> Indeed, I had forgotten about K?vya in South India. Thanks for reminder. I had read the book quite sometime ago. Interestingly, when I read it I did not agree with its interpretation of Ku?untokai 106 at that time. I have checked it again and let me take this opportunity to explain my rationale. We are basically trying to answer three questions. 1. Does 'ney' in the poem refer to ghee or oil? 2. Does pouring 'ney' into the fire represent brahmanic marriage ceremony? 3. Does 'pouring ney into the fire' mean the heroine is angry? The quote from R?m?ya?a indeed suggests the source of misunderstanding. The quote from R?m?ya?a shows the usage in Sanskrit in north India possibly based on a Vedic ceremony for the equivalent of English 'adding fuel to the fire'. The descendant from that usage is what we seem to have in Hindi today as ?? ??? ?? ????? where the use of 'ghee' continues even today. But that usage is different from what is used in Tamil. While the north Indians use 'ghee', the Tamils use 'oil' in the equivalent Tamil saying. A simple Google experiment will show this. The word 'ney' could indicate oil, clarified butter, and even honey in Classical Tamil texts. The number of instances in which 'ney' has been used to refer to oil in Classical Tamil texts are too numerous to list here. In modern Tamil ??????? is the common word for oil and ???? is the common word for ghee. (However, occasionally even in modern film songs, you will find ???? used for 'oil'. (See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvKOzk3wKLI#t=9s)) If we google for '??????? ?????????? ???????', we get 24700 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'oil in fire'. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AA%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%AA%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%8D%E2%80%9D If we google for '??????? ?????????? ????', we get only 36 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'ghee in fire'. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%81%E0% If we google for '??????? ?????? ???????', we get 3550 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'oil in fire', where an alternate word for fire has been used. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A4%E0%AF%80%E0%AE%AF%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%8D%E2%80%9D If we google for '??????? ?????? ????', we get only 5 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'ghee in fire'. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A4%E0%AF%80%E0%AE%AF%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%8D%E2%80%9D So when we have 'ney' being poured into fire, given the Tamil usage, 'ney' has to be interpreted as oil. Just because we have 'ney' (which has come to be interpreted as ghee in medieval times) and fire, some brahminic commentators (and those who follow them) seem to have reflexively interpreted the poem as referring to a wedding fire. Actually I see no basis in the poem to support that interpretation. There is another instance where fire and 'ney' are involved. See Kalittokai 138.21-22, where we have the hero describing his condition (before the heroine returned his love) as being similar to that of 'eri paranta neyyu? me?uku', i.e., wax inside 'ney' over which fire has spread. This simile has been used from Classical Tamil times till today. (Ai?ku?un??u 32 uses 't? u?u me?uku'. Kampar?m?ya?am 5286 uses 'eriyi? i??a me?uku'.) Here there is no suggestion of Vedic ceremony even though fire and 'ney' are involved. (We are fortunate to have 'ney' used here even though it is not really necessary. But it helps to solve our problem.) In both cases, we have similes that involve oil. These similes are used by the Tamils even today just like north Indians use essentially the same simile involving ghee from the days of R?m?ya?a till today. But, the north Indians use 'ghee' and the Tamils use 'oil' in the expression equivalent to 'adding fuel to the fire.' As for the suggestion that the heroine in Ku?untokai 106 is angry, that is not justified either. The simile is not restricted to a context of anger. As the example I gave from Kannadasan's work in the 20th century, it can be used to indicate a situation of desire too. It is interesting that I?amp?ra?ar, gives Ku?untokai 106 as an example for 't?tu mu?ivi?mai' meaning 'not disliking'/'not being angry at'. As for translating 'ma?a-' as 'marry', in my opinion Ku?untokai 25 shows why Wilden's translation as 'unite' is justified. In conclusion, 'ney' in Ku?untokai 106 is 'oil'. Pouring oil into fire does not indicate a wedding fire ritual. There is no dislike or anger on the part of the heroine. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: palaniappa ; indology Sent: Wed, Feb 19, 2014 2:42 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 An addendum: I forgot that I discussedKu?untokai 106 also in my book ? that much maligned monster, which apparently nobody reads ?K?vya in South India. Old Tamil Ca?kam Poetry. Groningen 2001 (presently available through Brill), pp. 39-40. There, I also quotedR?maya?a 6.103.11: pa?yatas t?? tu r?masya bh?ya? krodho'bhyavartata prabh?t?jy?vasiktasya p?vakasyeva d?pyata?, As R?ma looked at her, his anger increased further. He flared up lie a fire into which a great quantity of ghee has been poured. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Tieken, H.J.H. [H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl] Verzonden: woensdag 19 februari 2014 8:54 To: palaniappa at aol.com; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 As I have argued before (?The weaver bird in Old Tamil Ca?kam poetry: a critical essay on the method of translating classical Tamil poetry?.Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik 21, 1997: 293-319, esp. pp. 307-8,) fire into which ghee is poured flares up. If at all, it is an image of anger. See, for instance,P???yakulodaya 3. 59: pr?jyam ?jyam upayujya jr?mbhata? p?vakasya vidadhe pradak?i?am.In the Ku?untokai poem, however, we seem to be dealing with the fire circumambulated seven times by the couple at the wedding ceremony; read my article! Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: woensdag 19 februari 2014 6:40 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 I think the solution to the problem presented by Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is given by Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. What I am giving below is the poem based on the critical edition by Eva Wilden but with gemination of consonants shown inpu?arcci. pul v?? i??ik kal ivar ve? v?r varai i?i aruviyi? t???um n??a? t?tu il ne?cattuk ki?avi namvayin vanta??u v??i t??i n?mum ney pey t?yi? etirko??u t?m ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukam t?t? The translation below is basically Eva Wilden's except that I have changed 'ghee' to 'oil' forney. Word has come to us, oh friend, from the faultless heart of the man from a land where, like the waterfall descending the mountain, appears the stone-climbing white root of the talbot fig with low aerial roots, After receiving [his words] like fire into whichoil is poured, we too shall send a message saying 'we are still those he united with.' While ney can mean both oil and ghee, ney pey t?simply refers to a situation of 'adding fuel to the fire' as in the following passage from Arttamu??a Intumatam by Kannadasan, showing the common usage of oil being poured into a fire. "???;???????????????????????,???????????????????????. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????. ??????????????????????????,??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????." The notes given by UVS to Ku?untokai 106 show that the commentator I?amp?ra?ar considers the poem to describe a pre-marital situation in which the heroine does not dislike/is not angry at the messenger from the hero. But Nacci??rkki?iyar, another commentator, thinks the poem deals with a situation after marriage. A comment by P?r?ciriyar, another commentator, that receiving 'like fire into whichney is poured', is not possible in a pre-marital situation. May be he associatesney being poured into the fire with the Vedic fire ritual. I do not consider that a likely scenario. In contrast, I?amp?ra?ar's discussion of the poem in Ka?aviyal makes more sense. Wilden is right in translating 'ma?a-' as 'unite' and not as 'marry' as some scholars have done. The waterfall and mountain clearly suggest Ku?i?ci as the landscape, as some scholars have considered. There is nothing in the poem that suggests that there is an 'other woman' in the picture. So I do not agree with T. V. Gopal Iyer's view that this poem belongs to Marutam. Who is the messenger here? According to Tolk?ppiyam Poru?atik?ram, those who are allowed to speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love includep?rpp?? (brahmin/priest), p??ka? (companion), heroine's friend, heroine's foster mother, hero and heroine. Although the commentary for I?aiya??r Ka?aviyal 3 identifies the companion as ap?rpp??, Nacci??rkki?iyar (commentary for Ka?aviyal 10) only says that the companion is "perump??mai p?rpp???m", i.e., in majority of the instances the companion is a brahmin/priest. Although poems like Ku?untokai 156 suggest the companion being a brahmin/priest, Na??i?ai 250 and Na??i?ai 370, in both of which, the hero invites the bard to laugh with him, suggest that the companion could have been a bard earlier. Moreover Nacci??rkki?iyar in his commentary on Tol. P. 193 refers top??a? as p??ku pa??o?ukum p??a? and p??i?i as talaivim???up p??k?yo?ukum p??i?i even as Tol.P. 193 listsp??ka? separately from the bard and his female counterpart. Interestingly, in their commentaries to the s?tra beginning with "ava?a?i v???a", I?amp?ra?ar considers Na??i?ai 90 as spoken to the hero's companion. But Nacci??kki?iyar considers the same poem as spoken to the bard. Thus whatever be the view of the later grammarians in classifying the companions as distinct from the bards and that only companions could speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love, the internal evidence from the poems suggest that the bards could have been companions too. If that were accepted then, they could have served as messengers not only after marriage but before marriage too. If that were accepted, Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2, makes eminent sense. A maiden being in love with the hero (Vi??u), the bard (p??a??r interpreted as religious teacher) acting as a messenger, and the girl being resolute in passion towards Vi??u, all fit the pre-marital love scenario with no 'other woman' being present. The lack of anger towards the messenger also explains the honorific form,p??a??r. I would appreciate any comments on this solution. Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Thu Feb 20 06:50:08 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 01:50:08 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Periya_Tirumo=E1=B8=BBi_8.2.2?= In-Reply-To: <8D0FC1E027CF5BF-2880-FC8F@webmail-d145.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0FC1F208D139F-2880-FCDE@webmail-d145.sysops.aol.com> Sorry, somehow one word inadvertently got deleted in the sentence below. It is interesting that I?amp?ra?ar, gives Ku?untokai 106 as an example for 't?tu mu?ivi?mai' meaning 'not disliking'/'not being angry at'. It should read "It is interesting that I?amp?ra?ar, gives Ku?untokai 106 as an example for 't?tu mu?ivi?mai' meaning 'not disliking'/'not being angry at' the messenger." Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa To: H.J.H.Tieken ; indology Sent: Thu, Feb 20, 2014 12:42 am Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Indeed, I had forgotten about K?vya in South India. Thanks for reminder. I had read the book quite sometime ago. Interestingly, when I read it I did not agree with its interpretation of Ku?untokai 106 at that time. I have checked it again and let me take this opportunity to explain my rationale. We are basically trying to answer three questions. 1. Does 'ney' in the poem refer to ghee or oil? 2. Does pouring 'ney' into the fire represent brahmanic marriage ceremony? 3. Does 'pouring ney into the fire' mean the heroine is angry? The quote from R?m?ya?a indeed suggests the source of misunderstanding. The quote from R?m?ya?a shows the usage in Sanskrit in north India possibly based on a Vedic ceremony for the equivalent of English 'adding fuel to the fire'. The descendant from that usage is what we seem to have in Hindi today as ?? ??? ?? ????? where the use of 'ghee' continues even today. But that usage is different from what is used in Tamil. While the north Indians use 'ghee', the Tamils use 'oil' in the equivalent Tamil saying. A simple Google experiment will show this. The word 'ney' could indicate oil, clarified butter, and even honey in Classical Tamil texts. The number of instances in which 'ney' has been used to refer to oil in Classical Tamil texts are too numerous to list here. In modern Tamil ??????? is the common word for oil and ???? is the common word for ghee. (However, occasionally even in modern film songs, you will find ???? used for 'oil'. (See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvKOzk3wKLI#t=9s)) If we google for '??????? ?????????? ???????', we get 24700 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'oil in fire'. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AA%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%AA%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%8D%E2%80%9D If we google for '??????? ?????????? ????', we get only 36 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'ghee in fire'. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%81%E0% If we google for '??????? ?????? ???????', we get 3550 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'oil in fire', where an alternate word for fire has been used. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A4%E0%AF%80%E0%AE%AF%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%8D%E2%80%9D If we google for '??????? ?????? ????', we get only 5 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'ghee in fire'. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A4%E0%AF%80%E0%AE%AF%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%8D%E2%80%9D So when we have 'ney' being poured into fire, given the Tamil usage, 'ney' has to be interpreted as oil. Just because we have 'ney' (which has come to be interpreted as ghee in medieval times) and fire, some brahminic commentators (and those who follow them) seem to have reflexively interpreted the poem as referring to a wedding fire. Actually I see no basis in the poem to support that interpretation. There is another instance where fire and 'ney' are involved. See Kalittokai 138.21-22, where we have the hero describing his condition (before the heroine returned his love) as being similar to that of 'eri paranta neyyu? me?uku', i.e., wax inside 'ney' over which fire has spread. This simile has been used from Classical Tamil times till today. (Ai?ku?un??u 32 uses 't? u?u me?uku'. Kampar?m?ya?am 5286 uses 'eriyi? i??a me?uku'.) Here there is no suggestion of Vedic ceremony even though fire and 'ney' are involved. (We are fortunate to have 'ney' used here even though it is not really necessary. But it helps to solve our problem.) In both cases, we have similes that involve oil. These similes are used by the Tamils even today just like north Indians use essentially the same simile involving ghee from the days of R?m?ya?a till today. But, the north Indians use 'ghee' and the Tamils use 'oil' in the expression equivalent to 'adding fuel to the fire.' As for the suggestion that the heroine in Ku?untokai 106 is angry, that is not justified either. The simile is not restricted to a context of anger. As the example I gave from Kannadasan's work in the 20th century, it can be used to indicate a situation of desire too. It is interesting that I?amp?ra?ar, gives Ku?untokai 106 as an example for 't?tu mu?ivi?mai' meaning 'not disliking'/'not being angry at'. As for translating 'ma?a-' as 'marry', in my opinion Ku?untokai 25 shows why Wilden's translation as 'unite' is justified. In conclusion, 'ney' in Ku?untokai 106 is 'oil'. Pouring oil into fire does not indicate a wedding fire ritual. There is no dislike or anger on the part of the heroine. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: palaniappa ; indology Sent: Wed, Feb 19, 2014 2:42 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 An addendum: I forgot that I discussedKu?untokai 106 also in my book ? that much maligned monster, which apparently nobody reads ?K?vya in South India. Old Tamil Ca?kam Poetry. Groningen 2001 (presently available through Brill), pp. 39-40. There, I also quotedR?maya?a 6.103.11: pa?yatas t?? tu r?masya bh?ya? krodho'bhyavartata prabh?t?jy?vasiktasya p?vakasyeva d?pyata?, As R?ma looked at her, his anger increased further. He flared up lie a fire into which a great quantity of ghee has been poured. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Tieken, H.J.H. [H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl] Verzonden: woensdag 19 februari 2014 8:54 To: palaniappa at aol.com; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 As I have argued before (?The weaver bird in Old Tamil Ca?kam poetry: a critical essay on the method of translating classical Tamil poetry?.Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik 21, 1997: 293-319, esp. pp. 307-8,) fire into which ghee is poured flares up. If at all, it is an image of anger. See, for instance,P???yakulodaya 3. 59: pr?jyam ?jyam upayujya jr?mbhata? p?vakasya vidadhe pradak?i?am.In the Ku?untokai poem, however, we seem to be dealing with the fire circumambulated seven times by the couple at the wedding ceremony; read my article! Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: woensdag 19 februari 2014 6:40 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 I think the solution to the problem presented by Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is given by Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. What I am giving below is the poem based on the critical edition by Eva Wilden but with gemination of consonants shown inpu?arcci. pul v?? i??ik kal ivar ve? v?r varai i?i aruviyi? t???um n??a? t?tu il ne?cattuk ki?avi namvayin vanta??u v??i t??i n?mum ney pey t?yi? etirko??u t?m ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukam t?t? The translation below is basically Eva Wilden's except that I have changed 'ghee' to 'oil' forney. Word has come to us, oh friend, from the faultless heart of the man from a land where, like the waterfall descending the mountain, appears the stone-climbing white root of the talbot fig with low aerial roots, After receiving [his words] like fire into whichoil is poured, we too shall send a message saying 'we are still those he united with.' While ney can mean both oil and ghee, ney pey t?simply refers to a situation of 'adding fuel to the fire' as in the following passage from Arttamu??a Intumatam by Kannadasan, showing the common usage of oil being poured into a fire. "???;???????????????????????,???????????????????????. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????. ??????????????????????????,??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????." The notes given by UVS to Ku?untokai 106 show that the commentator I?amp?ra?ar considers the poem to describe a pre-marital situation in which the heroine does not dislike/is not angry at the messenger from the hero. But Nacci??rkki?iyar, another commentator, thinks the poem deals with a situation after marriage. A comment by P?r?ciriyar, another commentator, that receiving 'like fire into whichney is poured', is not possible in a pre-marital situation. May be he associatesney being poured into the fire with the Vedic fire ritual. I do not consider that a likely scenario. In contrast, I?amp?ra?ar's discussion of the poem in Ka?aviyal makes more sense. Wilden is right in translating 'ma?a-' as 'unite' and not as 'marry' as some scholars have done. The waterfall and mountain clearly suggest Ku?i?ci as the landscape, as some scholars have considered. There is nothing in the poem that suggests that there is an 'other woman' in the picture. So I do not agree with T. V. Gopal Iyer's view that this poem belongs to Marutam. Who is the messenger here? According to Tolk?ppiyam Poru?atik?ram, those who are allowed to speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love includep?rpp?? (brahmin/priest), p??ka? (companion), heroine's friend, heroine's foster mother, hero and heroine. Although the commentary for I?aiya??r Ka?aviyal 3 identifies the companion as ap?rpp??, Nacci??rkki?iyar (commentary for Ka?aviyal 10) only says that the companion is "perump??mai p?rpp???m", i.e., in majority of the instances the companion is a brahmin/priest. Although poems like Ku?untokai 156 suggest the companion being a brahmin/priest, Na??i?ai 250 and Na??i?ai 370, in both of which, the hero invites the bard to laugh with him, suggest that the companion could have been a bard earlier. Moreover Nacci??rkki?iyar in his commentary on Tol. P. 193 refers top??a? as p??ku pa??o?ukum p??a? and p??i?i as talaivim???up p??k?yo?ukum p??i?i even as Tol.P. 193 listsp??ka? separately from the bard and his female counterpart. Interestingly, in their commentaries to the s?tra beginning with "ava?a?i v???a", I?amp?ra?ar considers Na??i?ai 90 as spoken to the hero's companion. But Nacci??kki?iyar considers the same poem as spoken to the bard. Thus whatever be the view of the later grammarians in classifying the companions as distinct from the bards and that only companions could speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love, the internal evidence from the poems suggest that the bards could have been companions too. If that were accepted then, they could have served as messengers not only after marriage but before marriage too. If that were accepted, Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2, makes eminent sense. A maiden being in love with the hero (Vi??u), the bard (p??a??r interpreted as religious teacher) acting as a messenger, and the girl being resolute in passion towards Vi??u, all fit the pre-marital love scenario with no 'other woman' being present. The lack of anger towards the messenger also explains the honorific form,p??a??r. I would appreciate any comments on this solution. Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Thu Feb 20 08:38:45 2014 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 08:38:45 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Periya_Tirumo=E1=B8=BBi_8.2.2?= In-Reply-To: <8D0FC1F208D139F-2880-FCDE@webmail-d145.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Palaniappan, Here, one again, my interpretation (not a translation) of the poem:: "Word has reached us, saying that his (my lover's) heart is faultless (he loves us, did not misbehave). We will send a message back, saying that we are so too, once we have received him at the side of the (sacred) fire into which ghee is poured (i.e. once we have been officially married)". We seem to be dealing with a marriage ceremony supervised by brahmins, and that has nothing to do with the question if ney is ghee or oil! Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: donderdag 20 februari 2014 7:50 To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Sorry, somehow one word inadvertently got deleted in the sentence below. It is interesting that I?amp?ra?ar, gives Ku?untokai 106 as an example for 't?tu mu?ivi?mai' meaning 'not disliking'/'not being angry at'. It should read "It is interesting that I?amp?ra?ar, gives Ku?untokai 106 as an example for 't?tu mu?ivi?mai' meaning 'not disliking'/'not being angry at' the messenger." Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa To: H.J.H.Tieken ; indology Sent: Thu, Feb 20, 2014 12:42 am Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Indeed, I had forgotten about K?vya in South India. Thanks for reminder. I had read the book quite sometime ago. Interestingly, when I read it I did not agree with its interpretation of Ku?untokai 106 at that time. I have checked it again and let me take this opportunity to explain my rationale. We are basically trying to answer three questions. 1. Does 'ney' in the poem refer to ghee or oil? 2. Does pouring 'ney' into the fire represent brahmanic marriage ceremony? 3. Does 'pouring ney into the fire' mean the heroine is angry? The quote from R?m?ya?a indeed suggests the source of misunderstanding. The quote from R?m?ya?a shows the usage in Sanskrit in north India possibly based on a Vedic ceremony for the equivalent of English 'adding fuel to the fire'. The descendant from that usage is what we seem to have in Hindi today as ?? ??? ?? ????? where the use of 'ghee' continues even today. But that usage is different from what is used in Tamil. While the north Indians use 'ghee', the Tamils use 'oil' in the equivalent Tamil saying. A simple Google experiment will show this. The word 'ney' could indicate oil, clarified butter, and even honey in Classical Tamil texts. The number of instances in which 'ney' has been used to refer to oil in Classical Tamil texts are too numerous to list here. In modern Tamil ??????? is the common word for oil and ???? is the common word for ghee. (However, occasionally even in modern film songs, you will find ???? used for 'oil'. (See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvKOzk3wKLI#t=9s)) If we google for '??????? ?????????? ???????', we get 24700 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'oil in fire'. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AA%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%AA%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%8D%E2%80%9D If we google for '??????? ?????????? ????', we get only 36 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'ghee in fire'. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%81%E0% If we google for '??????? ?????? ???????', we get 3550 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'oil in fire', where an alternate word for fire has been used. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A4%E0%AF%80%E0%AE%AF%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%8D%E2%80%9D If we google for '??????? ?????? ????', we get only 5 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'ghee in fire'. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A4%E0%AF%80%E0%AE%AF%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%8D%E2%80%9D So when we have 'ney' being poured into fire, given the Tamil usage, 'ney' has to be interpreted as oil. Just because we have 'ney' (which has come to be interpreted as ghee in medieval times) and fire, some brahminic commentators (and those who follow them) seem to have reflexively interpreted the poem as referring to a wedding fire. Actually I see no basis in the poem to support that interpretation. There is another instance where fire and 'ney' are involved. See Kalittokai 138.21-22, where we have the hero describing his condition (before the heroine returned his love) as being similar to that of 'eri paranta neyyu? me?uku', i.e., wax inside 'ney' over which fire has spread. This simile has been used from Classical Tamil times till today. (Ai?ku?un??u 32 uses 't? u?u me?uku'. Kampar?m?ya?am 5286 uses 'eriyi? i??a me?uku'.) Here there is no suggestion of Vedic ceremony even though fire and 'ney' are involved. (We are fortunate to have 'ney' used here even though it is not really necessary. But it helps to solve our problem.) In both cases, we have similes that involve oil. These similes are used by the Tamils even today just like north Indians use essentially the same simile involving ghee from the days of R?m?ya?a till today. But, the north Indians use 'ghee' and the Tamils use 'oil' in the expression equivalent to 'adding fuel to the fire.' As for the suggestion that the heroine in Ku?untokai 106 is angry, that is not justified either. The simile is not restricted to a context of anger. As the example I gave from Kannadasan's work in the 20th century, it can be used to indicate a situation of desire too. It is interesting that I?amp?ra?ar, gives Ku?untokai 106 as an example for 't?tu mu?ivi?mai' meaning 'not disliking'/'not being angry at'. As for translating 'ma?a-' as 'marry', in my opinion Ku?untokai 25 shows why Wilden's translation as 'unite' is justified. In conclusion, 'ney' in Ku?untokai 106 is 'oil'. Pouring oil into fire does not indicate a wedding fire ritual. There is no dislike or anger on the part of the heroine. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. > To: palaniappa >; indology > Sent: Wed, Feb 19, 2014 2:42 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 An addendum: I forgot that I discussed Ku?untokai 106 also in my book ? that much maligned monster, which apparently nobody reads ? K?vya in South India. Old Tamil Ca?kam Poetry. Groningen 2001 (presently available through Brill), pp. 39-40. There, I also quoted R?maya?a 6.103.11: pa?yatas t?? tu r?masya bh?ya? krodho'bhyavartata prabh?t?jy?vasiktasya p?vakasyeva d?pyata?, As R?ma looked at her, his anger increased further. He flared up lie a fire into which a great quantity of ghee has been poured. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Tieken, H.J.H. [H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl] Verzonden: woensdag 19 februari 2014 8:54 To: palaniappa at aol.com; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 As I have argued before (?The weaver bird in Old Tamil Ca?kam poetry: a critical essay on the method of translating classical Tamil poetry?. Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik 21, 1997: 293-319, esp. pp. 307-8,) fire into which ghee is poured flares up. If at all, it is an image of anger. See, for instance, P???yakulodaya 3. 59: pr?jyam ?jyam upayujya jr?mbhata? p?vakasya vidadhe pradak?i?am. In the Ku?untokai poem, however, we seem to be dealing with the fire circumambulated seven times by the couple at the wedding ceremony; read my article! Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: woensdag 19 februari 2014 6:40 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 I think the solution to the problem presented by Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is given by Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. What I am giving below is the poem based on the critical edition by Eva Wilden but with gemination of consonants shown in pu?arcci. pul v?? i??ik kal ivar ve? v?r varai i?i aruviyi? t???um n??a? t?tu il ne?cattuk ki?avi namvayin vanta??u v??i t??i n?mum ney pey t?yi? etirko??u t?m ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukam t?t? The translation below is basically Eva Wilden's except that I have changed 'ghee' to 'oil' for ney. Word has come to us, oh friend, from the faultless heart of the man from a land where, like the waterfall descending the mountain, appears the stone-climbing white root of the talbot fig with low aerial roots, After receiving [his words] like fire into which oil is poured, we too shall send a message saying 'we are still those he united with.' While ney can mean both oil and ghee, ney pey t? simply refers to a situation of 'adding fuel to the fire' as in the following passage from Arttamu??a Intumatam by Kannadasan, showing the common usage of oil being poured into a fire. "???; ????? ???? ??????????????, ?????????????? ?????????. ???????? ????? ??????? ???????????? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????????. ??? ????? ??????? ???????????, ???? ???????????????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ??????????????????." The notes given by UVS to Ku?untokai 106 show that the commentator I?amp?ra?ar considers the poem to describe a pre-marital situation in which the heroine does not dislike/is not angry at the messenger from the hero. But Nacci??rkki?iyar, another commentator, thinks the poem deals with a situation after marriage. A comment by P?r?ciriyar, another commentator, that receiving 'like fire into which ney is poured', is not possible in a pre-marital situation. May be he associates ney being poured into the fire with the Vedic fire ritual. I do not consider that a likely scenario. In contrast, I?amp?ra?ar's discussion of the poem in Ka?aviyal makes more sense. Wilden is right in translating 'ma?a-' as 'unite' and not as 'marry' as some scholars have done. The waterfall and mountain clearly suggest Ku?i?ci as the landscape, as some scholars have considered. There is nothing in the poem that suggests that there is an 'other woman' in the picture. So I do not agree with T. V. Gopal Iyer's view that this poem belongs to Marutam. Who is the messenger here? According to Tolk?ppiyam Poru?atik?ram, those who are allowed to speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love include p?rpp?? (brahmin/priest), p??ka? (companion), heroine's friend, heroine's foster mother, hero and heroine. Although the commentary for I?aiya??r Ka?aviyal 3 identifies the companion as a p?rpp??, Nacci??rkki?iyar (commentary for Ka?aviyal 10) only says that the companion is "perump??mai p?rpp???m", i.e., in majority of the instances the companion is a brahmin/priest. Although poems like Ku?untokai 156 suggest the companion being a brahmin/priest, Na??i?ai 250 and Na??i?ai 370, in both of which, the hero invites the bard to laugh with him, suggest that the companion could have been a bard earlier. Moreover Nacci??rkki?iyar in his commentary on Tol. P. 193 refers to p??a? as p??ku pa??o?ukum p??a? and p??i?i as talaivim???up p??k?yo?ukum p??i?i even as Tol.P. 193 lists p??ka? separately from the bard and his female counterpart. Interestingly, in their commentaries to the s?tra beginning with "ava?a?i v???a", I?amp?ra?ar considers Na??i?ai 90 as spoken to the hero's companion. But Nacci??kki?iyar considers the same poem as spoken to the bard. Thus whatever be the view of the later grammarians in classifying the companions as distinct from the bards and that only companions could speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love, the internal evidence from the poems suggest that the bards could have been companions too. If that were accepted then, they could have served as messengers not only after marriage but before marriage too. If that were accepted, Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2, makes eminent sense. A maiden being in love with the hero (Vi??u), the bard (p??a??r interpreted as religious teacher) acting as a messenger, and the girl being resolute in passion towards Vi??u, all fit the pre-marital love scenario with no 'other woman' being present. The lack of anger towards the messenger also explains the honorific form, p??a??r. I would appreciate any comments on this solution. Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Thu Feb 20 10:37:01 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 16:07:01 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mr. Batra, NCERT and Penguin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had no desire to enter into the controversy. I am now in the dialogue because the NCERT has been brought in. The question may be answered without holding any brief for any of the parties involved in the first dispute. The NCERT has no axe to grind. On history or allied matter its object is India or its components. A community may be the object of description but without a motive. Its objective dispassionate approach acts like a shield. Doniger's approach is different. Hindus but no Hinduism, and the cart of 'alternative history' has been put before the horse of 'induction'. Why not Hinduism if it is an academic approach? It is exceptional to find community-centric motivated approach in an NCERT book. In case of any such occurrence they are rectified. I just pointed to the vulnerability of book without taking side. Best DB On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 12:26 AM, Stella Sandahl wrote: > I have learnt from a reliable source that Mr. Batra initiated no less than > ten lawsuits against NCERT's (NCERT stands for National Council for > Educational Research and Training) textbooks during the years 2004-2010. He > lost all of them. Isn't it strange that Penguin so easily gives in, when > NCERT fought back and won. One would assume that a great company like > Penguin can manage the legal fees involved. > Best to all > Stella Sandahl > > > > Professor Stella Sandahl 9retired) > Department of East Asian Studies > > 130 St. George St. room 14087 > Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca > Tel. (416) 978-4295 > Fax. (416) 978-5711 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Feb 20 10:49:45 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 11:49:45 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Odia a new classical language for India Message-ID: The Hindu reports today that Odia now joins Sanskrit, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada and Malayalam as an official "classical language" of India. - http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/odia-gets-classical-language-status/article5709028.ece It would be nice if we could now look forward to the opening of many new departments of classics in Indian universities, and the appointment of professorships and lectureships to support the study of the Indian classics! And an acceptance by banks, computer companies and other employers that a degree in classics is a valid and valuable education for any subsequent profession. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies , University of Vienna, Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria and Adjunct Professor, Division of Health and Humanities, St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Feb 20 10:59:57 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 11:59:57 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mr. Batra, NCERT and Penguin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Prof. Bhattacharya, I am not aware of any controversy in this INDOLOGY forum about Doniger's book *The Hindus: An Alternative History*. As far as I am aware, all commentators have been unanimous in their condemnation of the attack on free speech and the withdrawal of the book from circulation in India. You say that you are not taking sides, that you hold no brief. If that is true, you are alone here. I think members of the list would be interested if you could offer a reasoned justification for not overtly supporting the freedom of expression in the academic study of religion. If you cannot, or do not wish to, offer a plausible case for censorship, then you have indeed taken a side. This is a time for scholars to speak out. Dominik Wujastyk University of Vienna On 20 February 2014 11:37, Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya < dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote: > I had no desire to enter into the controversy. I am now in the dialogue > because the NCERT has been brought in. The question may be answered without > holding any brief for any of the parties involved in the first dispute. > > The NCERT has no axe to grind. On history or allied matter its object is > India or its components. A community may be the object of description but > without a motive. Its objective dispassionate approach acts like a > shield. > > Doniger?s approach is different. Hindus but no Hinduism, and the cart of > ?alternative history? has been put before the horse of ?induction?. Why not > Hinduism if it is an academic approach? It is exceptional to find > community-centric motivated approach in an NCERT book. In case of any such > occurrence they are rectified. > > I just pointed to the vulnerability of book without taking side. > > Best > > DB > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 12:26 AM, Stella Sandahl wrote: > >> I have learnt from a reliable source that Mr. Batra initiated no less >> than ten lawsuits against NCERT's (NCERT stands for National Council for >> Educational Research and Training) textbooks during the years 2004-2010. He >> lost all of them. Isn't it strange that Penguin so easily gives in, when >> NCERT fought back and won. One would assume that a great company like >> Penguin can manage the legal fees involved. >> Best to all >> Stella Sandahl >> >> >> >> Professor Stella Sandahl 9retired) >> Department of East Asian Studies >> >> 130 St. George St. room 14087 >> Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 >> ssandahl at sympatico.ca >> stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca >> Tel. (416) 978-4295 >> Fax. (416) 978-5711 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Thu Feb 20 11:55:01 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 17:25:01 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mr. Batra, NCERT and Penguin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Very true, so far as the List is concerned. But I am in India. I had that in mind. I am unequivocally against censorship when a book does not break the law of the land. I do not make stray comment on matters when the court is involved. But that does not mean that I cannot challenge in the court. Best Dipak Bhattacharya On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 4:29 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Dear Prof. Bhattacharya, > > I am not aware of any controversy in this INDOLOGY forum about Doniger's > book *The Hindus: An Alternative History*. As far as I am aware, all > commentators have been unanimous in their condemnation of the attack on > free speech and the withdrawal of the book from circulation in India. > > You say that you are not taking sides, that you hold no brief. If that is > true, you are alone here. I think members of the list would be interested > if you could offer a reasoned justification for not overtly supporting the > freedom of expression in the academic study of religion. If you cannot, or > do not wish to, offer a plausible case for censorship, then you have indeed > taken a side. > > This is a time for scholars to speak out. > > Dominik Wujastyk > University of Vienna > > > > On 20 February 2014 11:37, Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya < > dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> I had no desire to enter into the controversy. I am now in the dialogue >> because the NCERT has been brought in. The question may be answered without >> holding any brief for any of the parties involved in the first dispute. >> >> The NCERT has no axe to grind. On history or allied matter its object is >> India or its components. A community may be the object of description but >> without a motive. Its objective dispassionate approach acts like a >> shield. >> >> Doniger's approach is different. Hindus but no Hinduism, and the cart of >> 'alternative history' has been put before the horse of 'induction'. Why not >> Hinduism if it is an academic approach? It is exceptional to find >> community-centric motivated approach in an NCERT book. In case of any such >> occurrence they are rectified. >> >> I just pointed to the vulnerability of book without taking side. >> >> Best >> >> DB >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 12:26 AM, Stella Sandahl wrote: >> >>> I have learnt from a reliable source that Mr. Batra initiated no less >>> than ten lawsuits against NCERT's (NCERT stands for National Council for >>> Educational Research and Training) textbooks during the years 2004-2010. He >>> lost all of them. Isn't it strange that Penguin so easily gives in, when >>> NCERT fought back and won. One would assume that a great company like >>> Penguin can manage the legal fees involved. >>> Best to all >>> Stella Sandahl >>> >>> >>> >>> Professor Stella Sandahl 9retired) >>> Department of East Asian Studies >>> >>> 130 St. George St. room 14087 >>> Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 >>> ssandahl at sympatico.ca >>> stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca >>> Tel. (416) 978-4295 >>> Fax. (416) 978-5711 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Feb 20 12:10:48 2014 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 07:10:48 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Odia a new classical language for India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Dominik, Just for your information, an appeal to declare Marathi as a classical language is already afoot, and the state of Maharashtra has appointed a committee to prepare such an appeal. I have seen some reports of this committee, but I am not sure if there is a final version. Shrikant Bahulkar and Maitreyee Deshpande from Pune are members of this committee, among others. Madhav Deshpande On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:49 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > The Hindu reports today that Odia now joins Sanskrit, Tamil, Telugu, > Kannada and Malayalam as an official "classical language" of India. > > - > http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/odia-gets-classical-language-status/article5709028.ece > > It would be nice if we could now look forward to the opening of many new > departments of classics in Indian universities, and the appointment of > professorships and lectureships to support the study of the Indian > classics! And an acceptance by banks, computer companies and other > employers that a degree in classics is a valid and valuable education for > any subsequent profession. > > Best, > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies > , > University of Vienna, > Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 > 1090 Vienna, Austria > and > Adjunct Professor, > Division of Health and Humanities, > St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Thu Feb 20 12:16:23 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 17:46:23 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mr. Batra, NCERT and Penguin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To Continue. My opposing the NCERT to Wendy Doniger might have created the impression of my taking side against the latter. The assertion aimed at dispelling that notion and not the other way round. Hope there is no wrong notion about my democratic attitude Best DB On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:25 PM, Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya < dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote: > Very true, so far as the List is concerned. But I am in India. I had that > in mind. > I am unequivocally against censorship when a book does not break the law > of the land. > I do not make stray comment on matters when the court is involved. But > that does not mean that I cannot challenge in the court. > > Best > Dipak Bhattacharya > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 4:29 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >> Dear Prof. Bhattacharya, >> >> I am not aware of any controversy in this INDOLOGY forum about Doniger's >> book *The Hindus: An Alternative History*. As far as I am aware, all >> commentators have been unanimous in their condemnation of the attack on >> free speech and the withdrawal of the book from circulation in India. >> >> You say that you are not taking sides, that you hold no brief. If that >> is true, you are alone here. I think members of the list would be >> interested if you could offer a reasoned justification for not overtly >> supporting the freedom of expression in the academic study of religion. If >> you cannot, or do not wish to, offer a plausible case for censorship, then >> you have indeed taken a side. >> >> This is a time for scholars to speak out. >> >> Dominik Wujastyk >> University of Vienna >> >> >> >> On 20 February 2014 11:37, Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya < >> dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I had no desire to enter into the controversy. I am now in the >>> dialogue because the NCERT has been brought in. The question may be >>> answered without holding any brief for any of the parties involved in the >>> first dispute. >>> >>> The NCERT has no axe to grind. On history or allied matter its object is >>> India or its components. A community may be the object of description but >>> without a motive. Its objective dispassionate approach acts like a >>> shield. >>> >>> Doniger's approach is different. Hindus but no Hinduism, and the cart of >>> 'alternative history' has been put before the horse of 'induction'. Why not >>> Hinduism if it is an academic approach? It is exceptional to find >>> community-centric motivated approach in an NCERT book. In case of any such >>> occurrence they are rectified. >>> >>> I just pointed to the vulnerability of book without taking side. >>> >>> Best >>> >>> DB >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 12:26 AM, Stella Sandahl wrote: >>> >>>> I have learnt from a reliable source that Mr. Batra initiated no less >>>> than ten lawsuits against NCERT's (NCERT stands for National Council for >>>> Educational Research and Training) textbooks during the years 2004-2010. He >>>> lost all of them. Isn't it strange that Penguin so easily gives in, when >>>> NCERT fought back and won. One would assume that a great company like >>>> Penguin can manage the legal fees involved. >>>> Best to all >>>> Stella Sandahl >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Professor Stella Sandahl 9retired) >>>> Department of East Asian Studies >>>> >>>> 130 St. George St. room 14087 >>>> Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 >>>> ssandahl at sympatico.ca >>>> stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca >>>> Tel. (416) 978-4295 >>>> Fax. (416) 978-5711 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Thu Feb 20 13:01:03 2014 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 13:01:03 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mr. Batra, NCERT and Penguin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED082399F@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> In response to Dominik's timely call for scholars to take a stand, I distribute the following, for those who might wish to take theirs: https://www.change.org/en-IN/petitions/members-of-both-houses-of-the-indian-parliament-and-the-honorable-law-minister-government-of-india-reconsider-and-revise-sections-153-a-and-295-a-of-the-indian-penal-code-to-protect-freedom-of-expression-in-india# Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Thu Feb 20 16:50:59 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 22:20:59 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) Message-ID: indology at list.indology.info 20 2 14 While some Indology members took initiative in appealing against a law when an author from the West was affected by the law, no action was taken in such cases when South Asian authors were involved. I cite two cases -- Tasleema Nasreen and Ramanujan. They have been banned, one exiled, for their views. South Asian affairs are under Indology. Best DB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dchakra at hotmail.de Thu Feb 20 18:24:37 2014 From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 23:54:37 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Attention of Srikant Bahulkar! Message-ID: May I draw the attention of Prof. Srikant Bahulkar (who is an admirer of Moriz Winternitz) to say that he think about MW's 150th Birth Anniversary celebration?BestDebabrata Chakrabarti(We met in Pune and Kolkata)dchakra at hotmail.de ?This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.? ? Anandamayi Ma ?Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.? - Paracelsus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Thu Feb 20 18:27:07 2014 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 19:27:07 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In case academic freedom of expression is valid in this forum, all its full members, including those who have recently been criticized for having introduced "undesirable" topics, should have equal rights to freely introduce and contribute to new topics of indological and indology-related discussion. Jan Houben On 20 February 2014 17:50, Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya < dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote: > indology at list.indology.info > > 20 2 14 > > While some Indology members took initiative in appealing against a law > when an author from the West was affected by the law, no action was taken > in such cases when South Asian authors were involved. I cite two cases -- > Tasleema Nasreen and Ramanujan. They have been banned, one exiled, for > their views. > > South Asian affairs are under Indology. > > Best > > DB > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP, A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. JEMHouben at gmail.com www.jyotistoma.nl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From telvenkat at gmail.com Thu Feb 20 19:08:21 2014 From: telvenkat at gmail.com (D Venkat Rao) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 14 00:38:21 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] book-ban Message-ID: Apropos to the discussion about the withdrawal of Wendy Doniger's book, this review offers a very different take. This may be of interest to members. http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?289559 Venkat -- D. Venkat Rao Department of English Literature School of English Literary Studies The English and Foreign Languages University Hyderabad 500007 tel: 040-27689526 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From whitakjl at wfu.edu Thu Feb 20 20:08:31 2014 From: whitakjl at wfu.edu (Jarrod Whitaker) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 15:08:31 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <530660BF.1040209@wfu.edu> Dear Colleagues: When does the word "B/brahmin" ("priest, priestly class") with a final "-in" begin to be used/appear? I have always assumed that it appeared with the colonial encounter and thus it was a Anglocized (perhaps Franco-cized?) way of representing the final short schwa sound of "brahman". Does it have an older history in Arabic/Mughal writing? It surely is not a final Sanskrit "-in" stem (I have never heard of a Brahmii priest), but perhaps it has a regional/dialect use somewhere in India... Silly question but frustrating nonetheless when trying to unpack the complex use of the term brahman and its various meanings to students and the fact that textbooks are not uniform in how they represent the term and its derivatives (B/braahmaan.a [and more rarely Braahman. with final retroflex "n," which is curious in and of itself], B/brahman, or, of course our current Brahmin....[throw into the mix lower case, sometimes italicized brahman from Upanishads and god Brahmaa and students think you are just messing with them]). Cheers JW Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. Associate Professor, South Asian Religions Zachary T. Smith Faculty Fellow Graduate Program Director Wake Forest University Department of Religion P.O. Box 7212 Winston-Salem, NC 27109 whitakjl at wfu.edu p 336.758.4162 From antonia.ruppel at cornell.edu Thu Feb 20 20:16:21 2014 From: antonia.ruppel at cornell.edu (Antonia Ruppel) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 15:16:21 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? In-Reply-To: <530660BF.1040209@wfu.edu> Message-ID: Dear Jarrod, Not sure whether you've looked this up yet, but according to the OED, this spelling first appears specifically in relation to the Boston brahmins (and there is the only spelling) in 1823: 1823 Byron Don Juan: Canto XIII lxxxiii. 96 Thirty-three Of highest caste--the Brahmins of the ton. In reference to members of the brahm(a/i)n caste, spelling varies greatly, but spelling involving -i- is found quite early on. Again, here's what the OED lists. 1481 Myrrour of Worlde (Caxton) ii. v. 70 Other peple whiche ben callyd..bragman whiche ben fayrer than they to fore named. 1553 R. Eden tr. S. M?nster Treat. Newe India sig. Cvv, Their Priestes (called Bramini). 1599 R. Fitch in R. Hakluyt Princ. Navigations (new ed.) II. i. 252 The Bramanes which are their priests. 1634 T. Herbert Relation Trav. 50 An ancient Braminy, a deuout Wretch. 1650 J. Bulwer Anthropometamorphosis iii. 66 The Bramines of Agra mark themselves in the Forehead. 1656 T. Blount Glossographia, Brackmans, a sect of Philosophers in India. 1676 Dryden Aureng-Zebe iii. 37 Take the preaching Brachman hence. 1690 T. Burnet Theory of Earth iii. iii. 17 The modern Indian philosophers, the reliques of the old bragmans. 1715 Pope Temple of Fame 14 And Brachmans deep in desart Woods rever'd. 1753 J. Hanway Hist. Acct. Brit. Trade Caspian Sea (1762) II. xv. i. 406 (note) , He was fond of the brachmins or indian priests. 1840 C. Thirlwall Hist. Greece VII. liv, A whole community of Brahmins may have preserved the purity of their blood. 1842 J. C. Prichard Nat. Hist. Man 163 Aryavarta was the Holy Land of the Brahmans. Hope this helps! Antonia On 20 February 2014 15:08, Jarrod Whitaker wrote: > Dear Colleagues: > When does the word "B/brahmin" ("priest, priestly class") with a final "-in" > begin to be used/appear? I have always assumed that it appeared with the > colonial encounter and thus it was a Anglocized (perhaps Franco-cized?) way > of representing the final short schwa sound of "brahman". Does it have an > older history in Arabic/Mughal writing? It surely is not a final Sanskrit > "-in" stem (I have never heard of a Brahmii priest), but perhaps it has a > regional/dialect use somewhere in India... > > Silly question but frustrating nonetheless when trying to unpack the complex > use of the term brahman and its various meanings to students and the fact > that textbooks are not uniform in how they represent the term and its > derivatives (B/braahmaan.a [and more rarely Braahman. with final retroflex > "n," which is curious in and of itself], B/brahman, or, of course our > current Brahmin....[throw into the mix lower case, sometimes italicized > brahman from Upanishads and god Brahmaa and students think you are just > messing with them]). > > Cheers > JW > > Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. > Associate Professor, South Asian Religions > Zachary T. Smith Faculty Fellow > Graduate Program Director > > Wake Forest University > Department of Religion > P.O. Box 7212 > Winston-Salem, NC 27109 > whitakjl at wfu.edu > p 336.758.4162 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -- Dr. Antonia Ruppel Townsend Senior Lecturer in the Greek, Latin and Sanskrit Languages Department of Classics G21 Goldwin Smith Hall Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 USA antonia.ruppel at cornell.edu From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Feb 20 20:23:31 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 21:23:31 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm sorry, but I really can't let this divisive and false assertion stand. I certainly objected in the Ramanujan case, and I'm sure many other INDOLOGY members have raised their voices in all cases. It is, of course, a matter for individual action and responsibility. But a kind of "East-West divide" simply does not exist in this forum, and it is insidious to suggest so. Such a position would be against everything this forum was created to support. I am extremely sorry that you feel this way, and I would like to reassure you strongly that all academic indological authors who suffer censorship and ideological attack would be fully and equally supported by the members of the INDOLOGY forum. Sincerly, Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY forum member. On 20 February 2014 17:50, Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya < dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote: > indology at list.indology.info > > 20 2 14 > > While some Indology members took initiative in appealing against a law > when an author from the West was affected by the law, no action was taken > in such cases when South Asian authors were involved. I cite two cases -- > Tasleema Nasreen and Ramanujan. They have been banned, one exiled, for > their views. > > South Asian affairs are under Indology. > > Best > > DB > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Feb 20 20:42:08 2014 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 15:42:08 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? In-Reply-To: <530660BF.1040209@wfu.edu> Message-ID: Dear Jarrod, You can answer those questions for yourself by checking Monier-Williams, where you will discover that Brahmin is indeed a bone fide Sanskrit term, at least as old as the ?ra?yakas. See http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/monier/serveimg.pl?file=/scans/MWScan/MWScanjpg/mw0741-brahmodumbara.jpg for Braahma.n, this would follow the modern habit of dropping the final -a, since braahma.na is another term with a long history. >From Monier-Williams: brahmin [p= 741,1] mfn. belonging or relating to brahma or brahm? (Taittir?ya-?ra?yaka) "possessing sacred knowledge " N. of vi??u (Mah?bh?rata). br??hma?a [p= 741,2] mfn. relating to or given by a Brahman , befitting or becoming a Brahman , Brahmanical (atharva-veda, Taittir?ya-br?hma?a, Mah?bh?rata) br??hma?? m. one who has divine knowledge (sometimes applied to agni), a Brahman , a man belonging to the 1st of the 3 twice-born classes and of the 4 original divisions of the Hindu body (generally a priest , but often in the present day a layman engaged in non-priestly occupations although the name is strictly only applicable to one who knows and repeats the veda) (?g-veda &c) br??hma?? m. = br?hma??ccha?sin (K?ty?yana-?rauta-s?tra) br??hma?? m. a Brahman in the second stage (between m?tra and ?rotriya) (Hem?dri 's Caturvarga-cint?ma?i) br??hma?? m. N. of the 28th lunar mansion br??hma?a n. that which is divine , the divine (Br?hma?as) br??hma?a n. sacred or divine power ib. (??val?yana-g?hya-s?tra). br??hma?a n. Brahmanical explanation , explanations of sacred knowledge or doctrine (esp. for the use of the Brahmans in their sacrifices) Br. br??hma?a n. the br?hma?a portion of the veda (as distinct from its mantra and upani?ad portion) and consisting of a class of works called br?hma?as (they contain rules for the employment of the mantras or hymns at various sacrifices , with detailed explanations of their origin and meaning and numerous old legends ; they are said by s?ya?a to contain two parts: 1. vidhi , rules or directions for rites ; 2. artha-v?da , explanatory remarks ; each veda has its own br?hma?a , that of the RV. is preserved in 2 works , viz. the aitareya , sometimes called ??val?yana , and the kau??taki or ???kh?yana-br?hma?a ; the white yajur-veda has the ?ata-patha-br?hma?a ; the black yajur-veda has the br?hma?a which differs little from the text of its sa?hit? ; the SV. has 8 br?hma?as , the best known of which are the prau?ha or pa?ca-vi??a and the ?a?vi??a ; the AV. has one br?hma?a called go-patha) Nir. Gr2S3rS. &c br??hma?a n. the soma vessel of the brahman priest RV. AV. br??hma?a n. a society or assemblage of Brahmans , a conclave W. Dan Lusthaus Harvard University From slindqui at mail.smu.edu Thu Feb 20 20:45:58 2014 From: slindqui at mail.smu.edu (Lindquist, Steven) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 20:45:58 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To further back Dominik here, you will find several familiar names at http://www.petitiononline.com/ramanuj/petition.html. Bear in mind, of course, that what occurred in Ramanujan's case was specific to Delhi University so it is only logical that initiatives emanated (at least initially) from that institutional setting (whereas Doniger's situation is not localized in a similar fashion). Steven STEVEN LINDQUIST, PH.D. ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, RELIGIOUS STUDIES DIRECTOR, GLOBAL AND REGIONAL STUDIES INITIATIVE DIRECTOR, ASIAN STUDIES ____________________ Dedman College of Humanities and Sciences, SMU PO Box 750202 | Dallas | TX | 75275 Email: slindqui at smu.edu Web: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui From: Dominik Wujastyk > Date: Thursday, February 20, 2014 at 2:23 PM To: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) I'm sorry, but I really can't let this divisive and false assertion stand. I certainly objected in the Ramanujan case, and I'm sure many other INDOLOGY members have raised their voices in all cases. It is, of course, a matter for individual action and responsibility. But a kind of "East-West divide" simply does not exist in this forum, and it is insidious to suggest so. Such a position would be against everything this forum was created to support. I am extremely sorry that you feel this way, and I would like to reassure you strongly that all academic indological authors who suffer censorship and ideological attack would be fully and equally supported by the members of the INDOLOGY forum. Sincerly, Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY forum member. On 20 February 2014 17:50, Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya > wrote: indology at list.indology.info 20 2 14 While some Indology members took initiative in appealing against a law when an author from the West was affected by the law, no action was taken in such cases when South Asian authors were involved. I cite two cases -- Tasleema Nasreen and Ramanujan. They have been banned, one exiled, for their views. South Asian affairs are under Indology. Best DB From LubinT at wlu.edu Thu Feb 20 21:01:07 2014 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 21:01:07 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ? but of course the English term is definitely just an Anglo-phonetic representation of br?hma?a, pronounced in NIA (Hindi, etc.) fashion with the final -a dropped. The schwa quality of the Indic short -a- has led to a particularly wide array of transcriptions, using every vowel other than a, it would seem. Thus, Wm. Jones's "Ordinances of Menu," or the old work called "The Christian Brahmun" (about a convert from Hinduism). I find it useful pedagogically in undergraduates classes precisely to avoid confusion with Vedic br?hman. Tim Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 From: Dan Lusthaus > Date: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:42 PM To: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? Dear Jarrod, You can answer those questions for yourself by checking Monier-Williams, where you will discover that Brahmin is indeed a bone fide Sanskrit term, at least as old as the ?ra?yakas. See http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/monier/serveimg.pl?file=/scans/MWScan/MWScanjpg/mw0741-brahmodumbara.jpg for Braahma.n, this would follow the modern habit of dropping the final -a, since braahma.na is another term with a long history. >From Monier-Williams: brahmin [p= 741,1] mfn. belonging or relating to brahma or brahm? (Taittir?ya-?ra?yaka) "possessing sacred knowledge " N. of vi??u (Mah?bh?rata). br??hma?a [p= 741,2] mfn. relating to or given by a Brahman , befitting or becoming a Brahman , Brahmanical (atharva-veda, Taittir?ya-br?hma?a, Mah?bh?rata) br??hma?? m. one who has divine knowledge (sometimes applied to agni), a Brahman , a man belonging to the 1st of the 3 twice-born classes and of the 4 original divisions of the Hindu body (generally a priest , but often in the present day a layman engaged in non-priestly occupations although the name is strictly only applicable to one who knows and repeats the veda) (?g-veda &c) br??hma?? m. = br?hma??ccha?sin (K?ty?yana-?rauta-s?tra) br??hma?? m. a Brahman in the second stage (between m?tra and ?rotriya) (Hem?dri 's Caturvarga-cint?ma?i) br??hma?? m. N. of the 28th lunar mansion br??hma?a n. that which is divine , the divine (Br?hma?as) br??hma?a n. sacred or divine power ib. (??val?yana-g?hya-s?tra). br??hma?a n. Brahmanical explanation , explanations of sacred knowledge or doctrine (esp. for the use of the Brahmans in their sacrifices) Br. br??hma?a n. the br?hma?a portion of the veda (as distinct from its mantra and upani?ad portion) and consisting of a class of works called br?hma?as (they contain rules for the employment of the mantras or hymns at various sacrifices , with detailed explanations of their origin and meaning and numerous old legends ; they are said by s?ya?a to contain two parts: 1. vidhi , rules or directions for rites ; 2. artha-v?da , explanatory remarks ; each veda has its own br?hma?a , that of the RV. is preserved in 2 works , viz. the aitareya , sometimes called ??val?yana , and the kau??taki or ???kh?yana-br?hma?a ; the white yajur-veda has the ?ata-patha-br?hma?a ; the black yajur-veda has the br?hma?a which differs little from the text of its sa?hit? ; the SV. has 8 br?hma?as , the best known of which are the prau?ha or pa?ca-vi??a and the ?a?vi??a ; the AV. has one br?hma?a called go-patha) Nir. Gr2S3rS. &c br??hma?a n. the soma vessel of the brahman priest RV. AV. br??hma?a n. a society or assemblage of Brahmans , a conclave W. Dan Lusthaus Harvard University _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Thu Feb 20 21:14:33 2014 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 21:14:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0823BEC@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> The comment concerning Tasleema Nasreen - suggesting that those in the West stood by because she is an author of South Asian origin - is particularly untrue. Here are some relevant comments from her biography in the Wikipedia: "Leaving Bangladesh towards the end of 1994, Nasrin lived in exile in Western Europe and North America for ten years. Her Bangladeshi passport had been revoked; she was granted citizenship by the Swedish government and took refuge in Germany.[11] She even had to wait for six years (1994?1999) to get a visa to visit India..." Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago From LubinT at wlu.edu Thu Feb 20 21:30:58 2014 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 21:30:58 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0823BEC@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: To what Steven mentioned, in re the Ramanujan case, the (Europe-based) Network of Concerned Historians made a petition in protest, which was circulated on the Indology list by Christophe Vielle: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2011-October/036075.html Of course, as already noted, this was against his essay being dropped from the D.U. syllabus. The SC declined to ban the essay or the book. Tim From: "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" > Date: Thursday, February 20, 2014 4:14 PM To: Steven Lindquist >, Dominik Wujastyk >, Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) The comment concerning Tasleema Nasreen - suggesting that those in the West stood by because she is an author of South Asian origin - is particularly untrue. Here are some relevant comments from her biography in the Wikipedia: "Leaving Bangladesh towards the end of 1994, Nasrin lived in exile in Western Europe and North America for ten years. Her Bangladeshi passport had been revoked; she was granted citizenship by the Swedish government and took refuge in Germany.[11] She even had to wait for six years (1994?1999) to get a visa to visit India..." Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Thu Feb 20 23:46:06 2014 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 15:46:06 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? In-Reply-To: <530660BF.1040209@wfu.edu> Message-ID: Dr. Whitakar has raised an important question and I?m thankful. It may be unknown to some readers on this list that the first known intellectual/academic contact between the West and India happened through South India in the 16-th century. We have records of the earliest contact between the Portuguese and India through the South. One of such records is Fr. Henriques? handwritten manuscript of the grammar of Tamil (Arte Da Lingua Malabar) from 1549 CE (long before the British arrived in India). In his manuscript, Fr. Henriques records the following words: ?piramanen? and ?????????; piramanati and ??????????.? No distinction between the alveolar ?n? and the retroflex ?n.? The final ?in? in "B/brahmin? must be after Fr. Henriques? time. For details, please refer to ?The Earliest Missionary Grammar of Tamil? by Jeanne and Rajam, Harvard 2013. ++++++ One of the earliest Tamil commentaries from about the 8-th century uses the term ???????? (pir?ma?an). Thanks and regards, Rajam On Feb 20, 2014, at 12:08 PM, Jarrod Whitaker wrote: > Dear Colleagues: > When does the word "B/brahmin" ("priest, priestly class") with a final "-in" begin to be used/appear? I have always assumed that it appeared with the colonial encounter and thus it was a Anglocized (perhaps Franco-cized?) way of representing the final short schwa sound of "brahman". Does it have an older history in Arabic/Mughal writing? It surely is not a final Sanskrit "-in" stem (I have never heard of a Brahmii priest), but perhaps it has a regional/dialect use somewhere in India... > > Silly question but frustrating nonetheless when trying to unpack the complex use of the term brahman and its various meanings to students and the fact that textbooks are not uniform in how they represent the term and its derivatives (B/braahmaan.a [and more rarely Braahman. with final retroflex "n," which is curious in and of itself], B/brahman, or, of course our current Brahmin....[throw into the mix lower case, sometimes italicized brahman from Upanishads and god Brahmaa and students think you are just messing with them]). > > Cheers > JW > > Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. > Associate Professor, South Asian Religions > Zachary T. Smith Faculty Fellow > Graduate Program Director > > Wake Forest University > Department of Religion > P.O. Box 7212 > Winston-Salem, NC 27109 > whitakjl at wfu.edu > p 336.758.4162 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Fri Feb 21 03:57:12 2014 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 19:57:12 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Periya_Tirumo=E1=B8=BBi_8.2.2?= In-Reply-To: <8D0FB4C4D21EDDA-250C-6ED9@webmail-m128.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7ED3E4A8-2F5C-4C63-8001-01526A33A930@berkeley.edu> Here is a literal translation of Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. In his land, the white roots spreading on the mountain from the dun-colored (i.e. nondescript) runners of the i??i look like waterfalls descending from a hill. The words of his heart that holds no malice have come (to me), friend, and (I took them) as fire takes ghee/oil (OR they were like fire when ghee/oil is poured on it). (Now) I must send a messenger to say that I am the same as when we became (or were) lovers (or were married). Here are two possible interpretations that I see: The image of ghee/oil feeding a fire means that his words, which she did not expect, made her suddenly experience relief and passion. In this case, Palaniappan is correct in interpreting ma?a as union and not marriage, especially as this appears to be a kuri?ci poem dealing with premarital love. The messenger is likely to be a P??a?, though this is not expressed, and the situation, as in other ku?i?ci poems, is that the hero who used to come and see the heroine secretly at night is no longer coming. The heroine becomes distressed but is suddenly heartened when a messenger (P??a??) comes and tells her that the hero still cares for her. She immediately (like oil feeding fire) feels her passion and love flare up and wishes to send a message to the hero to tell him that she still cares and feels the same as when they were lovers. HOWEVER there is a problem with this analysis, and that is the image of the runners and roots of the i??i tree, which clearly are intended to suggest that things are not as they seem. That would suggest that we take ?which holds no malice? as sarcastic and the image of the fire taking the ghee/oil as one of anger flaring up (following the suggestion of the Kazhagam commentator, C?macuntara??r). In that case, ma?a could mean ?marry? and the last line could mean ?the same as when we married.? In this interpretation, the poem, in spite of its ku?i?ci imagery, is really a marutam poem and the hero, who has been with his courtesans, has sent the P??a? off to conciliate his angry wife. She hears his words sanctimoniously describing the hero?s pure heart and sarcastically echoes them, concluding that she will send the messenger to tell him that while he has changed and is unfaithful to her, she has not changed. She wishes to make the hero feel guilty. Of these two interpretations, I think the second one is likely to be the correct one, as otherwise the image at the beginning of the poem does not make sense. The point of the image would appear to be that just as the root of the rather ugly and parasitic i??i tree looks like a beautiful waterfall, the hero?s reprobate heart appears pure. I don?t think the poem can be understood without discovering the intent of the image at its beginning, and that would seem to mean that this has to be a marutam poem. It?s worth noting that Kapilar is one of the greatest Indian poets ? he is unlikely to have put in an image at the beginning of a poem that has no relation to its content. n?? nil? mu??attu ni??u iva? n?kki???; k??um?, Ka??apuram! e??u k???i???; p??a??r ti??am irukka, i?i, iva? n??um?? na??u na??u Na?aiy?rarkk?! A literal translation: She stood on the open space with its long moonlight and looked. And she pointed asking ?Can one see the city of Ka??a? (Krishna) (from here)?? The excellent P??a? was firm, and now will she feel ashamed? A fine thing indeed is this for the person from Na?aiy?r (Vi??u)! It would seem that the hero/Vi??u is leading the heroine on, and that the P??a? is insisting on the hero?s uprightness. The last line suggests that the hero (or Vi??u) is not as upright as the P??a? suggests. This makes sense as a marutam poem, I think ? especially given the last line, which seems to me to have the connotation that the hero is not being honest with the heroine. The poem has two perspectives ? the marutam situation in which the hero is with his courtesans but tries to conciliate the heroine by telling her he is a good person (which he is not, since he is visiting courtesans) and the religious one, in which God is playing with the soul of the devotee and is hard to get. A notable thing about this is that P??a??r is made respective, suggesting that, as the commentary says, the P??a? symbolizes the ?c?ryas whose teachings bring the souls of others to Vi??u. Perhaps the intent is that the ?c?ryas are firm in their teaching, and so devotees who hear them should not feel discouraged or ashamed, even though (last line) Vi??u is elusive. There is a lot of speculation here. I believe that the Ku?untokai poem is probably a marutam poem about the hero visiting his courtesans and the same is true of the verse from the Periya Tirumo?i ? but it?s a tough call, and I would certainly see Palaniappan?s analysis as possible. George On Feb 18, 2014, at 9:40 PM, Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: > I think the solution to the problem presented by Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is given by Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. What I am giving below is the poem based on the critical edition by Eva Wilden but with gemination of consonants shown in pu?arcci. > > pul v?? i??ik kal ivar ve? v?r > varai i?i aruviyi? t???um n??a? > t?tu il ne?cattuk ki?avi namvayin > vanta??u v??i t??i n?mum > ney pey t?yi? etirko??u > t?m ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukam t?t? > > The translation below is basically Eva Wilden's except that I have changed 'ghee' to 'oil' for ney. > > Word has come to us, oh friend, > from the faultless heart of the man from a land where, > like the waterfall descending the mountain, > appears the stone-climbing white root of the talbot fig > with low aerial roots, > After receiving [his words] like fire into which oil is poured, > we too shall send a message saying > 'we are still those he united with.' > > While ney can mean both oil and ghee, ney pey t? simply refers to a situation of 'adding fuel to the fire' as in the following passage from Arttamu??a Intumatam by Kannadasan, showing the common usage of oil being poured into a fire. > > "???; ????? ???? ??????????????, ?????????????? ?????????. > ???????? ????? ??????? ???????????? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????????. > > ??? ????? ??????? ???????????, ???? ???????????????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ??????????????????." > > The notes given by UVS to Ku?untokai 106 show that the commentator I?amp?ra?ar considers the poem to describe a pre-marital situation in which the heroine does not dislike/is not angry at the messenger from the hero. But Nacci??rkki?iyar, another commentator, thinks the poem deals with a situation after marriage. A comment by P?r?ciriyar, another commentator, that receiving 'like fire into which ney is poured', is not possible in a pre-marital situation. May be he associates ney being poured into the fire with the Vedic fire ritual. I do not consider that a likely scenario. In contrast, I?amp?ra?ar's discussion of the poem in Ka?aviyal makes more sense. Wilden is right in translating 'ma?a-' as 'unite' and not as 'marry' as some scholars have done. The waterfall and mountain clearly suggest Ku?i?ci as the landscape, as some scholars have considered. There is nothing in the poem that suggests that there is an 'other woman' in the picture. So I do not agree with T. V. Gopal Iyer's view that this poem belongs to Marutam. > > Who is the messenger here? According to Tolk?ppiyam Poru?atik?ram, those who are allowed to speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love include p?rpp?? (brahmin/priest), p??ka? (companion), heroine's friend, heroine's foster mother, hero and heroine. Although the commentary for I?aiya??r Ka?aviyal 3 identifies the companion as a p?rpp??, Nacci??rkki?iyar (commentary for Ka?aviyal 10) only says that the companion is "perump??mai p?rpp???m", i.e., in majority of the instances the companion is a brahmin/priest. Although poems like Ku?untokai 156 suggest the companion being a brahmin/priest, Na??i?ai 250 and Na??i?ai 370, in both of which, the hero invites the bard to laugh with him, suggest that the companion could have been a bard earlier. Moreover Nacci??rkki?iyar in his commentary on Tol. P. 193 refers to p??a? as p??ku pa??o?ukum p??a? and p??i?i as talaivim???up p??k?yo?ukum p??i?i even as Tol.P. 193 lists p??ka? separately from the bard and his female counterpart. Interestingly, in their commentaries to the s?tra beginning with "ava?a?i v???a", I?amp?ra?ar considers Na??i?ai 90 as spoken to the hero's companion. But Nacci??kki?iyar considers the same poem as spoken to the bard. > > Thus whatever be the view of the later grammarians in classifying the companions as distinct from the bards and that only companions could speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love, the internal evidence from the poems suggest that the bards could have been companions too. If that were accepted then, they could have served as messengers not only after marriage but before marriage too. > > If that were accepted, Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2, makes eminent sense. A maiden being in love with the hero (Vi??u), the bard (p??a??r interpreted as religious teacher) acting as a messenger, and the girl being resolute in passion towards Vi??u, all fit the pre-marital love scenario with no 'other woman' being present. The lack of anger towards the messenger also explains the honorific form, p??a??r. > > I would appreciate any comments on this solution. > > Thanks in advance. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: palaniappa > To: indology > Sent: Sat, Feb 15, 2014 11:19 am > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 > > Even with the understanding that the devotional poems of the Vai??ava saints do not strictly follow the conventions of the Classical Tamil love poetry, the interpretation of Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is perplexing. Here is the verse given in Periya Tirumo?i Ira???m Tokuti (with Periyav?cc?? Pi??ai's commentary translated into Tamil by Ti. V?. K?p?laiyar) produced by EFEO and published by Teyvac C?kki??r Caivacitt?ntap P??ac?lai, Ta?c?v?r, 2006, p. 962. > > n?? nil? mu??attu ni??u iva? n?kki???; > k??um?, Ka??apuram! e??u k???i???; > p??a??r ti??am irukka, i?i, iva? > n??um?? na??u na??u Na?aiy?rarkk?! > > The verse is supposed to be the utterance of a mother about her daughter in love with Vi??u. The traditional commentary (p. 965) explains 'p?????r' in the verse by relating it to the Classical Tamil Marutam genre in which the bard acts as a messenger from the husband to his wife , who is mad at him for having gone to the other woman. But then it goes on to explain that 'p??a??r' represents the religious teachers, who act to bring the souls toward 'God' and that in the verse the girl is resolute in her faith because of the religious teachers. And the mother concludes that the resolute girl will not be bashful in expressing her love toward Vi??u. See attachment. > > I am not convinced by the commentary's explanation about the association with Marutam, the resoluteness of the bard, who is referred to in a very respectful way, and the lack of bashfulness of the girl. The respectful way the bard is mentioned suggests more of Mullai. Won't a better interpretation be that the mother talks about her daughter, a maiden, who sends a message to her beloved through the bard; the bard comes back with the message that the hero will join her soon; emboldened by this certainty, the maiden has no bashfulness in expressing her love; and the mother is critical of the hero for causing this immodest behavior in her daughter? (Of course, many ti?ai conventions are violated here too.) > > I would appreciate any comments on this verse and possible interpretations. > > Thanks in advance > > Regards, > Palaniappan > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Fri Feb 21 04:08:14 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 23:08:14 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Periya_Tirumo=E1=B8=BBi_8.2.2?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8D0FCD1ACFC830A-1320-5846@webmail-va027.sysops.aol.com> Dear Dr. Tieken, The interpretation you suggest is grammatically impossible. First of all, there is nothing in the poem to indicate a conditional, which you introduce. Reception is in the past, not in the future. Future would have been possible only if you had "maNakkum a?aiyam". 'ma?anta' is clearly in the past tense. So what the poem very clearly shows is that the reception (etirko??utal) and uniting (ma?attal) are already over. The only thing in the future is sending the messenger (vi?utal) Finally, you stated, "We seem to be dealing with a marriage ceremony supervised by brahmins, and that has nothing to do with the question if ney is ghee or oil!" But the simple fact is your interpretation of a "marriage ceremony supervised by brahmins" is based only on "fire into which ghee is poured." (emphasis mine) Even with ghee, non-wedding interpretation is possible. But without ghee there is absolutely no basis for a brahminic wedding. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: palaniappa ; indology Sent: Thu, Feb 20, 2014 2:38 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Dear Palaniappan, Here, one again, my interpretation (not a translation) of the poem:: "Word has reached us, saying that his (my lover's) heart is faultless (he loves us, did not misbehave). We will send a message back, saying that we are so too, once we have received him at the side of the (sacred) fire into which ghee is poured (i.e. once we have been officially married)". We seem to be dealing with a marriage ceremony supervised by brahmins, and that has nothing to do with the question if ney is ghee or oil! Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: donderdag 20 februari 2014 7:50 To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Sorry, somehow one word inadvertently got deleted in the sentence below. It is interesting that I?amp?ra?ar, gives Ku?untokai 106 as an example for 't?tu mu?ivi?mai' meaning 'not disliking'/'not being angry at'. It should read "It is interesting that I?amp?ra?ar, gives Ku?untokai 106 as an example for 't?tu mu?ivi?mai' meaning 'not disliking'/'not being angry at' the messenger." Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa To: H.J.H.Tieken ; indology Sent: Thu, Feb 20, 2014 12:42 am Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Indeed, I had forgotten about K?vya in South India. Thanks for reminder. I had read the book quite sometime ago. Interestingly, when I read it I did not agree with its interpretation of Ku?untokai 106 at that time. I have checked it again and let me take this opportunity to explain my rationale. We are basically trying to answer three questions. 1. Does 'ney' in the poem refer to ghee or oil? 2. Does pouring 'ney' into the fire represent brahmanic marriage ceremony? 3. Does 'pouring ney into the fire' mean the heroine is angry? The quote from R?m?ya?a indeed suggests the source of misunderstanding. The quote from R?m?ya?a shows the usage in Sanskrit in north India possibly based on a Vedic ceremony for the equivalent of English 'adding fuel to the fire'. The descendant from that usage is what we seem to have in Hindi today as ?? ??? ?? ????? where the use of 'ghee' continues even today. But that usage is different from what is used in Tamil. While the north Indians use 'ghee', the Tamils use 'oil' in the equivalent Tamil saying. A simple Google experiment will show this. The word 'ney' could indicate oil, clarified butter, and even honey in Classical Tamil texts. The number of instances in which 'ney' has been used to refer to oil in Classical Tamil texts are too numerous to list here. In modern Tamil ??????? is the common word for oil and ???? is the common word for ghee. (However, occasionally even in modern film songs, you will find ???? used for 'oil'. (See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvKOzk3wKLI#t=9s)) If we google for '??????? ?????????? ???????', we get 24700 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'oil in fire'. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AA%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%AA%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%8D%E2%80%9D If we google for '??????? ?????????? ????', we get only 36 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'ghee in fire'. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%81%E0% If we google for '??????? ?????? ???????', we get 3550 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'oil in fire', where an alternate word for fire has been used. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A4%E0%AF%80%E0%AE%AF%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%8D%E2%80%9D If we google for '??????? ?????? ????', we get only 5 hits, where we are searching for (pouring) 'ghee in fire'. https://www.google.com/#q=%E2%80%9D%E0%AE%8E%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A4%E0%AF%80%E0%AE%AF%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D+%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%8D%E2%80%9D So when we have 'ney' being poured into fire, given the Tamil usage, 'ney' has to be interpreted as oil. Just because we have 'ney' (which has come to be interpreted as ghee in medieval times) and fire, some brahminic commentators (and those who follow them) seem to have reflexively interpreted the poem as referring to a wedding fire. Actually I see no basis in the poem to support that interpretation. There is another instance where fire and 'ney' are involved. See Kalittokai 138.21-22, where we have the hero describing his condition (before the heroine returned his love) as being similar to that of 'eri paranta neyyu? me?uku', i.e., wax inside 'ney' over which fire has spread. This simile has been used from Classical Tamil times till today. (Ai?ku?un??u 32 uses 't? u?u me?uku'. Kampar?m?ya?am 5286 uses 'eriyi? i??a me?uku'.) Here there is no suggestion of Vedic ceremony even though fire and 'ney' are involved. (We are fortunate to have 'ney' used here even though it is not really necessary. But it helps to solve our problem.) In both cases, we have similes that involve oil. These similes are used by the Tamils even today just like north Indians use essentially the same simile involving ghee from the days of R?m?ya?a till today. But, the north Indians use 'ghee' and the Tamils use 'oil' in the expression equivalent to 'adding fuel to the fire.' As for the suggestion that the heroine in Ku?untokai 106 is angry, that is not justified either. The simile is not restricted to a context of anger. As the example I gave from Kannadasan's work in the 20th century, it can be used to indicate a situation of desire too. It is interesting that I?amp?ra?ar, gives Ku?untokai 106 as an example for 't?tu mu?ivi?mai' meaning 'not disliking'/'not being angry at'. As for translating 'ma?a-' as 'marry', in my opinion Ku?untokai 25 shows why Wilden's translation as 'unite' is justified. In conclusion, 'ney' in Ku?untokai 106 is 'oil'. Pouring oil into fire does not indicate a wedding fire ritual. There is no dislike or anger on the part of the heroine. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: palaniappa ; indology Sent: Wed, Feb 19, 2014 2:42 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 An addendum: I forgot that I discussedKu?untokai 106 also in my book ? that much maligned monster, which apparently nobody reads ?K?vya in South India. Old Tamil Ca?kam Poetry. Groningen 2001 (presently available through Brill), pp. 39-40. There, I also quotedR?maya?a 6.103.11: pa?yatas t?? tu r?masya bh?ya? krodho'bhyavartata prabh?t?jy?vasiktasya p?vakasyeva d?pyata?, As R?ma looked at her, his anger increased further. He flared up lie a fire into which a great quantity of ghee has been poured. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Tieken, H.J.H. [H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl] Verzonden: woensdag 19 februari 2014 8:54 To: palaniappa at aol.com;indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 As I have argued before (?The weaver bird in Old Tamil Ca?kam poetry: a critical essay on the method of translating classical Tamil poetry?.Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik 21, 1997: 293-319, esp. pp. 307-8,) fire into which ghee is poured flares up. If at all, it is an image of anger. See, for instance,P???yakulodaya 3. 59: pr?jyam ?jyam upayujya jr?mbhata? p?vakasya vidadhe pradak?i?am.In the Ku?untokai poem, however, we seem to be dealing with the fire circumambulated seven times by the couple at the wedding ceremony; read my article! Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namenspalaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: woensdag 19 februari 2014 6:40 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 I think the solution to the problem presented by Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is given by Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. What I am giving below is the poem based on the critical edition by Eva Wilden but with gemination of consonants shown inpu?arcci. pul v?? i??ik kal ivar ve? v?r varai i?i aruviyi? t???um n??a? t?tu il ne?cattuk ki?avi namvayin vanta??u v??i t??i n?mum ney pey t?yi? etirko??u t?m ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukam t?t? The translation below is basically Eva Wilden's except that I have changed 'ghee' to 'oil' forney. Word has come to us, oh friend, from the faultless heart of the man from a land where, like the waterfall descending the mountain, appears the stone-climbing white root of the talbot fig with low aerial roots, After receiving [his words] like fire into whichoil is poured, we too shall send a message saying 'we are still those he united with.' While ney can mean both oil and ghee, ney pey t?simply refers to a situation of 'adding fuel to the fire' as in the following passage from Arttamu??a Intumatam by Kannadasan, showing the common usage of oil being poured into a fire. "???;???????????????????????,???????????????????????. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????. ??????????????????????????,??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????." The notes given by UVS to Ku?untokai 106 show that the commentator I?amp?ra?ar considers the poem to describe a pre-marital situation in which the heroine does not dislike/is not angry at the messenger from the hero. But Nacci??rkki?iyar, another commentator, thinks the poem deals with a situation after marriage. A comment by P?r?ciriyar, another commentator, that receiving 'like fire into whichney is poured', is not possible in a pre-marital situation. May be he associatesney being poured into the fire with the Vedic fire ritual. I do not consider that a likely scenario. In contrast, I?amp?ra?ar's discussion of the poem in Ka?aviyal makes more sense. Wilden is right in translating 'ma?a-' as 'unite' and not as 'marry' as some scholars have done. The waterfall and mountain clearly suggest Ku?i?ci as the landscape, as some scholars have considered. There is nothing in the poem that suggests that there is an 'other woman' in the picture. So I do not agree with T. V. Gopal Iyer's view that this poem belongs to Marutam. Who is the messenger here? According to Tolk?ppiyam Poru?atik?ram, those who are allowed to speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love includep?rpp?? (brahmin/priest), p??ka? (companion), heroine's friend, heroine's foster mother, hero and heroine. Although the commentary for I?aiya??r Ka?aviyal 3 identifies the companion as ap?rpp??, Nacci??rkki?iyar (commentary for Ka?aviyal 10) only says that the companion is "perump??mai p?rpp???m", i.e., in majority of the instances the companion is a brahmin/priest. Although poems like Ku?untokai 156 suggest the companion being a brahmin/priest, Na??i?ai 250 and Na??i?ai 370, in both of which, the hero invites the bard to laugh with him, suggest that the companion could have been a bard earlier. Moreover Nacci??rkki?iyar in his commentary on Tol. P. 193 refers top??a? as p??ku pa??o?ukum p??a? and p??i?i as talaivim???up p??k?yo?ukum p??i?i even as Tol.P. 193 listsp??ka? separately from the bard and his female counterpart. Interestingly, in their commentaries to the s?tra beginning with "ava?a?i v???a", I?amp?ra?ar considers Na??i?ai 90 as spoken to the hero's companion. But Nacci??kki?iyar considers the same poem as spoken to the bard. Thus whatever be the view of the later grammarians in classifying the companions as distinct from the bards and that only companions could speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love, the internal evidence from the poems suggest that the bards could have been companions too. If that were accepted then, they could have served as messengers not only after marriage but before marriage too. If that were accepted, Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2, makes eminent sense. A maiden being in love with the hero (Vi??u), the bard (p??a??r interpreted as religious teacher) acting as a messenger, and the girl being resolute in passion towards Vi??u, all fit the pre-marital love scenario with no 'other woman' being present. The lack of anger towards the messenger also explains the honorific form,p??a??r. I would appreciate any comments on this solution. Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Fri Feb 21 04:08:50 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 14 09:38:50 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <... Nasrin lived in exile in Western Europe and North America for ten years. Her Bangladeshi passport had been revoked; ... She even had to wait for six years (1994-1999) to get a visa to visit India...> True, but I spoke about this forum - Indology, not of the West or the East. In India too there are vocal supporters of Nasreen, Fida Hussain and Ramanujan. Their views have been published in many news papers. But they did so as individuals not as members of 'Indology'. As for the idea of East-West divide, I stated facts without casting aspersion. On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 AM, Lubin, Tim wrote: > To what Steven mentioned, in re the Ramanujan case, the (Europe-based) > Network of Concerned Historians made a petition in protest, which was > circulated on the Indology list by Christophe Vielle: > > http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2011-October/036075.html > Of course, as already noted, this was against his essay being dropped from > the D.U. syllabus. The SC declined to ban the essay or the book. > > Tim > > From: "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" > Date: Thursday, February 20, 2014 4:14 PM > To: Steven Lindquist , Dominik Wujastyk < > wujastyk at gmail.com>, Indology > > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) > > The comment concerning Tasleema Nasreen - suggesting that those in the > West stood by > because she is an author of South Asian origin - is particularly untrue. > Here are > some relevant comments from her biography in the Wikipedia: > > "Leaving Bangladesh towards the end of 1994, Nasrin lived in exile in > Western Europe and North America for ten years. Her Bangladeshi passport > had been revoked; she was granted citizenship by the Swedish government and > took refuge in Germany.[11] She even had to wait for six years (1994-1999) > to get a visa to visit India..." > > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Fri Feb 21 04:15:35 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 23:15:35 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Periya_Tirumo=E1=B8=BBi_8.2.2?= In-Reply-To: <7ED3E4A8-2F5C-4C63-8001-01526A33A930@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <8D0FCD2B3F62ACA-1320-58CC@webmail-va027.sysops.aol.com> Eva Wilden has already given a satisfactory explanation for the tree and mountain. According to Eva, "more easily to be connected with the rest of the poem may be that SHE is as much rooted in HIM as the I??i in the stone." Analyzing further, the stone can be taken to represent the strong hero and the tree with low aerial roots being the heroine weakened by the separation but still holding on to her faith in the hero. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: George Hart To: palaniappa at aol.com Palaniappan ; Indology List Sent: Thu, Feb 20, 2014 9:57 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Here is a literal translation of Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. In his land, the white roots spreading on the mountain from the dun-colored (i.e. nondescript) runners of the i??i look like waterfalls descending from a hill. The words of his heart that holds no malice have come (to me), friend, and (I took them) as fire takes ghee/oil (OR they were like fire when ghee/oil is poured on it). (Now) I must send a messenger to say that I am the same as when we became (or were) lovers (or were married). Here are two possible interpretations that I see: The image of ghee/oil feeding a fire means that his words, which she did not expect, made her suddenly experience relief and passion. In this case, Palaniappan is correct in interpreting ma?a as union and not marriage, especially as this appears to be a kuri?ci poem dealing with premarital love. The messenger is likely to be a P??a?, though this is not expressed, and the situation, as in other ku?i?ci poems, is that the hero who used to come and see the heroine secretly at night is no longer coming. The heroine becomes distressed but is suddenly heartened when a messenger (P??a??) comes and tells her that the hero still cares for her. She immediately (like oil feeding fire) feels her passion and love flare up and wishes to send a message to the hero to tell him that she still cares and feels the same as when they were lovers. HOWEVER there is a problem with this analysis, and that is the image of the runners and roots of the i??i tree, which clearly are intended to suggest that things are not as they seem. That would suggest that we take ?which holds no malice? as sarcastic and the image of the fire taking the ghee/oil as one of anger flaring up (following the suggestion of the Kazhagam commentator, C?macuntara??r). In that case, ma?a could mean ?marry? and the last line could mean ?the same as when we married.? In this interpretation, the poem, in spite of its ku?i?ci imagery, is really a marutam poem and the hero, who has been with his courtesans, has sent the P??a? off to conciliate his angry wife. She hears his words sanctimoniously describing the hero?s pure heart and sarcastically echoes them, concluding that she will send the messenger to tell him that while he has changed and is unfaithful to her, she has not changed. She wishes to make the hero feel guilty. Of these two interpretations, I think the second one is likely to be the correct one, as otherwise the image at the beginning of the poem does not make sense. The point of the image would appear to be that just as the root of the rather ugly and parasitic i??i tree looks like a beautiful waterfall, the hero?s reprobate heart appears pure. I don?t think the poem can be understood without discovering the intent of the image at its beginning, and that would seem to mean that this has to be a marutam poem. It?s worth noting that Kapilar is one of the greatest Indian poets ? he is unlikely to have put in an image at the beginning of a poem that has no relation to its content. n?? nil? mu??attu ni??u iva? n?kki???; k??um?, Ka??apuram! e??u k???i???; p??a??r ti??am irukka, i?i, iva? n??um?? na??u na??u Na?aiy?rarkk?! A literal translation: She stood on the open space with its long moonlight and looked. And she pointed asking ?Can one see the city of Ka??a? (Krishna) (from here)?? The excellent P??a? was firm, and now will she feel ashamed? A fine thing indeed is this for the person from Na?aiy?r (Vi??u)! It would seem that the hero/Vi??u is leading the heroine on, and that the P??a? is insisting on the hero?s uprightness. The last line suggests that the hero (or Vi??u) is not as upright as the P??a? suggests. This makes sense as a marutam poem, I think ? especially given the last line, which seems to me to have the connotation that the hero is not being honest with the heroine. The poem has two perspectives ? the marutam situation in which the hero is with his courtesans but tries to conciliate the heroine by telling her he is a good person (which he is not, since he is visiting courtesans) and the religious one, in which God is playing with the soul of the devotee and is hard to get. A notable thing about this is that P??a??r is made respective, suggesting that, as the commentary says, the P??a? symbolizes the ?c?ryas whose teachings bring the souls of others to Vi??u. Perhaps the intent is that the ?c?ryas are firm in their teaching, and so devotees who hear them should not feel discouraged or ashamed, even though (last line) Vi??u is elusive. There is a lot of speculation here. I believe that the Ku?untokai poem is probably a marutam poem about the hero visiting his courtesans and the same is true of the verse from the Periya Tirumo?i ? but it?s a tough call, and I would certainly see Palaniappan?s analysis as possible. George On Feb 18, 2014, at 9:40 PM, Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: I think the solution to the problem presented by Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is given by Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. What I am giving below is the poem based on the critical edition by Eva Wilden but with gemination of consonants shown in pu?arcci. pul v?? i??ik kal ivar ve? v?r varai i?i aruviyi? t???um n??a? t?tu il ne?cattuk ki?avi namvayin vanta??u v??i t??i n?mum ney pey t?yi? etirko??u t?m ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukam t?t? The translation below is basically Eva Wilden's except that I have changed 'ghee' to 'oil' for ney. Word has come to us, oh friend, from the faultless heart of the man from a land where, like the waterfall descending the mountain, appears the stone-climbing white root of the talbot fig with low aerial roots, After receiving [his words] like fire into which oil is poured, we too shall send a message saying 'we are still those he united with.' While ney can mean both oil and ghee, ney pey t? simply refers to a situation of 'adding fuel to the fire' as in the following passage from Arttamu??a Intumatam by Kannadasan, showing the common usage of oil being poured into a fire. "???;????? ???? ??????????????, ?????????????? ?????????. ???????? ????? ??????? ???????????? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????????. ??? ????? ??????????????????, ???? ???????????????? ??????? ????????????????? ??????????????????." The notes given by UVS to Ku?untokai 106 show that the commentator I?amp?ra?ar considers the poem to describe a pre-marital situation in which the heroine does not dislike/is not angry at the messenger from the hero. But Nacci??rkki?iyar, another commentator, thinks the poem deals with a situation after marriage. A comment by P?r?ciriyar, another commentator, that receiving 'like fire into which ney is poured', is not possible in a pre-marital situation. May be he associates ney being poured into the fire with the Vedic fire ritual. I do not consider that a likely scenario. In contrast, I?amp?ra?ar's discussion of the poem in Ka?aviyal makes more sense. Wilden is right in translating 'ma?a-' as 'unite' and not as 'marry' as some scholars have done. The waterfall and mountain clearly suggest Ku?i?ci as the landscape, as some scholars have considered. There is nothing in the poem that suggests that there is an 'other woman' in the picture. So I do not agree with T. V. Gopal Iyer's view that this poem belongs to Marutam. Who is the messenger here? According to Tolk?ppiyam Poru?atik?ram, those who are allowed to speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love include p?rpp?? (brahmin/priest), p??ka? (companion), heroine's friend, heroine's foster mother, hero and heroine. Although the commentary for I?aiya??r Ka?aviyal 3 identifies the companion as a p?rpp??, Nacci??rkki?iyar (commentary for Ka?aviyal 10) only says that the companion is "perump??mai p?rpp???m", i.e., in majority of the instances the companion is a brahmin/priest. Although poems like Ku?untokai 156 suggest the companion being a brahmin/priest, Na??i?ai 250 and Na??i?ai 370, in both of which, the hero invites the bard to laugh with him, suggest that the companion could have been a bard earlier. Moreover Nacci??rkki?iyar in his commentary on Tol. P. 193 refers to p??a? as p??ku pa??o?ukum p??a? and p??i?i as talaivim???up p??k?yo?ukum p??i?i even as Tol.P. 193 lists p??ka? separately from the bard and his female counterpart. Interestingly, in their commentaries to the s?tra beginning with "ava?a?i v???a", I?amp?ra?ar considers Na??i?ai 90 as spoken to the hero's companion. But Nacci??kki?iyar considers the same poem as spoken to the bard. Thus whatever be the view of the later grammarians in classifying the companions as distinct from the bards and that only companions could speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love, the internal evidence from the poems suggest that the bards could have been companions too. If that were accepted then, they could have served as messengers not only after marriage but before marriage too. If that were accepted, Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2, makes eminent sense. A maiden being in love with the hero (Vi??u), the bard (p??a??r interpreted as religious teacher) acting as a messenger, and the girl being resolute in passion towards Vi??u, all fit the pre-marital love scenario with no 'other woman' being present. The lack of anger towards the messenger also explains the honorific form, p??a??r. I would appreciate any comments on this solution. Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa To: indology Sent: Sat, Feb 15, 2014 11:19 am Subject: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Even with the understanding that the devotional poems of the Vai??ava saints do not strictly follow the conventions of the Classical Tamil love poetry, the interpretation of Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is perplexing. Here is the verse given in Periya Tirumo?i Ira???m Tokuti (with Periyav?cc?? Pi??ai's commentary translated into Tamil by Ti. V?. K?p?laiyar) produced by EFEO and published by Teyvac C?kki??r Caivacitt?ntap P??ac?lai, Ta?c?v?r, 2006, p. 962. n?? nil? mu??attu ni??u iva? n?kki???; k??um?, Ka??apuram! e??u k???i???; p??a??r ti??am irukka, i?i, iva? n??um?? na??u na??u Na?aiy?rarkk?! The verse is supposed to be the utterance of a mother about her daughter in love with Vi??u. The traditional commentary (p. 965) explains 'p?????r' in the verse by relating it to the Classical Tamil Marutam genre in which the bard acts as a messenger from the husband to his wife , who is mad at him for having gone to the other woman. But then it goes on to explain that 'p??a??r' represents the religious teachers, who act to bring the souls toward 'God' and that in the verse the girl is resolute in her faith because of the religious teachers. And the mother concludes that the resolute girl will not be bashful in expressing her love toward Vi??u. See attachment. I am not convinced by the commentary's explanation about the association with Marutam, the resoluteness of the bard, who is referred to in a very respectful way, and the lack of bashfulness of the girl. The respectful way the bard is mentioned suggests more of Mullai. Won't a better interpretation be that the mother talks about her daughter, a maiden, who sends a message to her beloved through the bard; the bard comes back with the message that the hero will join her soon; emboldened by this certainty, the maiden has no bashfulness in expressing her love; and the mother is critical of the hero for causing this immodest behavior in her daughter? (Of course, many ti?ai conventions are violated here too.) I would appreciate any comments on this verse and possible interpretations. Thanks in advance Regards, Palaniappan _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Fri Feb 21 04:58:21 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 14 23:58:21 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8D0FCD8AD977E8A-1320-5B40@webmail-va027.sysops.aol.com> Dear Prof. Bhattacharya, Please go to http://listinfo.indology.info/ . Click on INDOLOGY Archive search interface. Type 'Ramanujan' in the search field. You will get many hits including the one below. http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2011-December/036210.html Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya To: Lubin, Tim Cc: Indology Sent: Thu, Feb 20, 2014 10:09 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) True, but I spoke about this forum - Indology, not of the Westor the East. In India too there are vocal supporters of Nasreen, Fida Hussainand Ramanujan. Their views have been published in many news papers. But theydid so as individuals not as members of ?Indology?. As for the idea of East-West divide, I stated facts withoutcasting aspersion. On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 AM, Lubin, Tim wrote: To what Steven mentioned, in re the Ramanujan case, the (Europe-based) Network of Concerned Historians made a petition in protest, which was circulated on the Indology list by Christophe Vielle: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2011-October/036075.html Of course, as already noted, this was against his essay being dropped from the D.U. syllabus. The SC declined to ban the essay or the book. Tim From: "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" Date: Thursday, February 20, 2014 4:14 PM To: Steven Lindquist , Dominik Wujastyk , Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) The comment concerning Tasleema Nasreen - suggesting that those in the West stood by because she is an author of South Asian origin - is particularly untrue. Here are some relevant comments from her biography in the Wikipedia: "Leaving Bangladesh towards the end of 1994, Nasrin lived in exile in Western Europe and North America for ten years. Her Bangladeshi passport had been revoked; she was granted citizenship by the Swedish government and took refuge in Germany.[11] She even had to wait for six years (1994?1999) to get a visa to visit India..." Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ulla.Remmer at oeaw.ac.at Fri Feb 21 10:06:34 2014 From: Ulla.Remmer at oeaw.ac.at (Remmer, Ulla) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 14 10:06:34 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] book search Message-ID: <918375014CBFEF4EA357F3731EA11A8F17D60D98@w07exdb1.oeaw.ads> Dear list-members, could anybody help me with the book Ibtida?i Kalam-i-Iqbal (author: Gyan Chand) ? I would need a piece of information / citation contained in it about the hymn Sare jahan se accha. The book is not to be found in any public library within reach. Ibtid??? kal?m-i Iqb?l, bah tart?b mah o s?l / Gy?n Cand. Muhammad Iqbal, Sir, 1877-1938. ?aidar?b?d : Urd? R?sarc Sen?ar ; Dihl? : Taqs?mk?r Ej?keshnal Pablishing H???s, 1988. Thank you for all troubles, Ulla Remmer -------------------- Dr. Ulla Remmer Phonogrammarchiv of the Austrian Academy of Sciences Liebigggasse 5 1010 Wien Austria ulla.remmer at oeaw.ac.at -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Fri Feb 21 20:17:39 2014 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 14 12:17:39 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Periya_Tirumo=E1=B8=BBi_8.2.2?= In-Reply-To: <8D0FCD2B3F62ACA-1320-58CC@webmail-va027.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: (My last post on this subject). I don't agree. The aerial roots of the fig do not root in stone, as far as I can tell. The word for ?stone? is kal, which can also mean ?mountain,? ?hill.? Most likely the poet means that the aerial roots of the fig (which are brown) reach down on a hill and find stone. Unable to root, they dry out, turn a lighter shade and spread. The image at the beginning of the poem is an u??u?ai, and in such cases the comparison is not to one quality (e.g. moonlike face) but to an action or fact (roots like waterfalls). The point here, clearly I believe, is that what appears to be one thing is something else ? the messenger insists that the hero is good but he actually is not just as it looks as if there are waterfalls in the hero?s land (an image of prosperity and fertility) but what appear to be waterfalls are only the whitening roots of a parasitic plant. Often, when the formula ??n??a?? (man from a land where?.), this sort of u??u?ai is intended. I am pasting in a much more elaborate instance of an u??u?ai in a marutam poem (about the courtesan). Those who work with Sanskrit suggestion may find it interesting, I think. George Hart Akan????u 46. Marutam The friend refuses the request of the hero who asks her to allow him to see the heroine. (This does not seem to fit the poem, which appears to be the words of the heroine.) In your town, a red-eyed buffalo gets tired of being penned in mud and at night, when everyone is asleep, breaks the rope holding him, opens the sharp-thorned fence with his horns and, as the fish all flee from him on the water-filled field, stirs up the va??ai flowers with their lovely throats 5 and eats the cool lotuses while the bees buzz inside them. Who are you that we should be angry with you? Others brought a woman to our house, her dark, falling hair more lovely than a line of descending rain clouds, and said that you had made love to her. We have nothing to say about that? 10 may you live well, my lord. I am as beautiful as A???r thick with stacks of paddy, city of victorious Ce?iya? whose armies have shining spears that cut through and kill in fierce battle with enemies and their elephants, yet if the bright bangles on my arms must grow loose, let them. 15 Go, my lord, no one will keep you here. A???r Na?mullaiy?r OC construes the suggested meaning (u??urai) of this as follows: ?The buffalo has turned its shed into a mire with its water and dung, broken its bond, broken open the fence that is protecting the field with its horns, stirred up the swamp morning glories that surround lotuses so that fish run away, and investigated the lotuses that are closed and unflowering with bees (inside). Like that, you have made her who is protected by you other (i.e. ruined her beauty as she is distraught), broken the bond of shame, broken open the fence that protects the courtesan with the horn of your bard (who serves as a messenger to the courtesan), stirred up the mothers of those courtesans so that the friends who stay with them flee, and been a person who, bursting with egotism, enjoys women who do not welcome you.? 5. Va??ai is the swamp morning glory. Its flowers have the same shape as ordinary morning glories. 6. ?Bees buzz inside them? is va??u ?tu pa?i malar, literally ?the cool flowers where bees hum (or feed).? Because it is night, presumably the lotuses have closed and trapped the bees. 10. ?Had made love to her? is vatuvai ayarnta?ai, which could also mean ?had married her.? On Feb 20, 2014, at 8:15 PM, palaniappa at aol.com wrote: > Eva Wilden has already given a satisfactory explanation for the tree and mountain. According to Eva, "more easily to be connected with the rest of the poem may be that SHE is as much rooted in HIM as the I??i in the stone." Analyzing further, the stone can be taken to represent the strong hero and the tree with low aerial roots being the heroine weakened by the separation but still holding on to her faith in the hero. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: George Hart > To: palaniappa at aol.com Palaniappan ; Indology List > Sent: Thu, Feb 20, 2014 9:57 pm > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 > > Here is a literal translation of Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. > > In his land, the white roots spreading on the mountain from the dun-colored (i.e. nondescript) runners of the i??i > look like waterfalls descending from a hill. > The words of his heart that holds no malice > have come (to me), friend, > and (I took them) as fire takes ghee/oil (OR they were like fire when ghee/oil is poured on it). > (Now) I must send a messenger to say > that I am the same as when we became (or were) lovers (or were married). > > Here are two possible interpretations that I see: > > The image of ghee/oil feeding a fire means that his words, which she did not expect, made her suddenly experience relief and passion. In this case, Palaniappan is correct in interpreting ma?a as union and not marriage, especially as this appears to be a kuri?ci poem dealing with premarital love. The messenger is likely to be a P??a?, though this is not expressed, and the situation, as in other ku?i?ci poems, is that the hero who used to come and see the heroine secretly at night is no longer coming. The heroine becomes distressed but is suddenly heartened when a messenger (P??a??) comes and tells her that the hero still cares for her. She immediately (like oil feeding fire) feels her passion and love flare up and wishes to send a message to the hero to tell him that she still cares and feels the same as when they were lovers. > > HOWEVER there is a problem with this analysis, and that is the image of the runners and roots of the i??i tree, which clearly are intended to suggest that things are not as they seem. That would suggest that we take ?which holds no malice? as sarcastic and the image of the fire taking the ghee/oil as one of anger flaring up (following the suggestion of the Kazhagam commentator, C?macuntara??r). In that case, ma?a could mean ?marry? and the last line could mean ?the same as when we married.? In this interpretation, the poem, in spite of its ku?i?ci imagery, is really a marutam poem and the hero, who has been with his courtesans, has sent the P??a? off to conciliate his angry wife. She hears his words sanctimoniously describing the hero?s pure heart and sarcastically echoes them, concluding that she will send the messenger to tell him that while he has changed and is unfaithful to her, she has not changed. She wishes to make the hero feel guilty. > > Of these two interpretations, I think the second one is likely to be the correct one, as otherwise the image at the beginning of the poem does not make sense. The point of the image would appear to be that just as the root of the rather ugly and parasitic i??i tree looks like a beautiful waterfall, the hero?s reprobate heart appears pure. I don?t think the poem can be understood without discovering the intent of the image at its beginning, and that would seem to mean that this has to be a marutam poem. It?s worth noting that Kapilar is one of the greatest Indian poets ? he is unlikely to have put in an image at the beginning of a poem that has no relation to its content. > > n?? nil? mu??attu ni??u iva? n?kki???; > k??um?, Ka??apuram! e??u k???i???; > p??a??r ti??am irukka, i?i, iva? > n??um?? na??u na??u Na?aiy?rarkk?! > > A literal translation: > She stood on the open space with its long moonlight and looked. > And she pointed asking ?Can one see the city of Ka??a? (Krishna) (from here)?? > The excellent P??a? was firm, and now will she feel ashamed? > A fine thing indeed is this for the person from Na?aiy?r (Vi??u)! > > It would seem that the hero/Vi??u is leading the heroine on, and that the P??a? is insisting on the hero?s uprightness. The last line suggests that the hero (or Vi??u) is not as upright as the P??a? suggests. This makes sense as a marutam poem, I think ? especially given the last line, which seems to me to have the connotation that the hero is not being honest with the heroine. The poem has two perspectives ? the marutam situation in which the hero is with his courtesans but tries to conciliate the heroine by telling her he is a good person (which he is not, since he is visiting courtesans) and the religious one, in which God is playing with the soul of the devotee and is hard to get. A notable thing about this is that P??a??r is made respective, suggesting that, as the commentary says, the P??a? symbolizes the ?c?ryas whose teachings bring the souls of others to Vi??u. Perhaps the intent is that the ?c?ryas are firm in their teaching, and so devotees who hear them should not feel discouraged or ashamed, even though (last line) Vi??u is elusive. > > There is a lot of speculation here. I believe that the Ku?untokai poem is probably a marutam poem about the hero visiting his courtesans and the same is true of the verse from the Periya Tirumo?i ? but it?s a tough call, and I would certainly see Palaniappan?s analysis as possible. > > George > > > > > > > On Feb 18, 2014, at 9:40 PM, Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: > >> I think the solution to the problem presented by Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is given by Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. What I am giving below is the poem based on the critical edition by Eva Wilden but with gemination of consonants shown in pu?arcci. >> >> pul v?? i??ik kal ivar ve? v?r >> varai i?i aruviyi? t???um n??a? >> t?tu il ne?cattuk ki?avi namvayin >> vanta??u v??i t??i n?mum >> ney pey t?yi? etirko??u >> t?m ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukam t?t? >> >> The translation below is basically Eva Wilden's except that I have changed 'ghee' to 'oil' for ney. >> >> Word has come to us, oh friend, >> from the faultless heart of the man from a land where, >> like the waterfall descending the mountain, >> appears the stone-climbing white root of the talbot fig >> with low aerial roots, >> After receiving [his words] like fire into which oil is poured, >> we too shall send a message saying >> 'we are still those he united with.' >> >> While ney can mean both oil and ghee, ney pey t? simply refers to a situation of 'adding fuel to the fire' as in the following passage from Arttamu??a Intumatam by Kannadasan, showing the common usage of oil being poured into a fire. >> >> "???; ????? ???? ??????????????, ?????????????? ?????????. >> ???????? ????? ??????? ???????????? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????????. >> >> ??? ????? ??????? ???????????, ???? ???????????????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ??????????????????." >> >> The notes given by UVS to Ku?untokai 106 show that the commentator I?amp?ra?ar considers the poem to describe a pre-marital situation in which the heroine does not dislike/is not angry at the messenger from the hero. But Nacci??rkki?iyar, another commentator, thinks the poem deals with a situation after marriage. A comment by P?r?ciriyar, another commentator, that receiving 'like fire into which ney is poured', is not possible in a pre-marital situation. May be he associates ney being poured into the fire with the Vedic fire ritual. I do not consider that a likely scenario. In contrast, I?amp?ra?ar's discussion of the poem in Ka?aviyal makes more sense. Wilden is right in translating 'ma?a-' as 'unite' and not as 'marry' as some scholars have done. The waterfall and mountain clearly suggest Ku?i?ci as the landscape, as some scholars have considered. There is nothing in the poem that suggests that there is an 'other woman' in the picture. So I do not agree with T. V. Gopal Iyer's view that this poem belongs to Marutam. >> >> Who is the messenger here? According to Tolk?ppiyam Poru?atik?ram, those who are allowed to speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love include p?rpp?? (brahmin/priest), p??ka? (companion), heroine's friend, heroine's foster mother, hero and heroine. Although the commentary for I?aiya??r Ka?aviyal 3 identifies the companion as a p?rpp??, Nacci??rkki?iyar (commentary for Ka?aviyal 10) only says that the companion is "perump??mai p?rpp???m", i.e., in majority of the instances the companion is a brahmin/priest. Although poems like Ku?untokai 156 suggest the companion being a brahmin/priest, Na??i?ai 250 and Na??i?ai 370, in both of which, the hero invites the bard to laugh with him, suggest that the companion could have been a bard earlier. Moreover Nacci??rkki?iyar in his commentary on Tol. P. 193 refers to p??a? as p??ku pa??o?ukum p??a? and p??i?i as talaivim???up p??k?yo?ukum p??i?i even as Tol.P. 193 lists p??ka? separately from the bard and his female counterpart. Interestingly, in their commentaries to the s?tra beginning with "ava?a?i v???a", I?amp?ra?ar considers Na??i?ai 90 as spoken to the hero's companion. But Nacci??kki?iyar considers the same poem as spoken to the bard. >> >> Thus whatever be the view of the later grammarians in classifying the companions as distinct from the bards and that only companions could speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love, the internal evidence from the poems suggest that the bards could have been companions too. If that were accepted then, they could have served as messengers not only after marriage but before marriage too. >> >> If that were accepted, Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2, makes eminent sense. A maiden being in love with the hero (Vi??u), the bard (p??a??r interpreted as religious teacher) acting as a messenger, and the girl being resolute in passion towards Vi??u, all fit the pre-marital love scenario with no 'other woman' being present. The lack of anger towards the messenger also explains the honorific form, p??a??r. >> >> I would appreciate any comments on this solution. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: palaniappa >> To: indology >> Sent: Sat, Feb 15, 2014 11:19 am >> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 >> >> Even with the understanding that the devotional poems of the Vai??ava saints do not strictly follow the conventions of the Classical Tamil love poetry, the interpretation of Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is perplexing. Here is the verse given in Periya Tirumo?i Ira???m Tokuti (with Periyav?cc?? Pi??ai's commentary translated into Tamil by Ti. V?. K?p?laiyar) produced by EFEO and published by Teyvac C?kki??r Caivacitt?ntap P??ac?lai, Ta?c?v?r, 2006, p. 962. >> >> n?? nil? mu??attu ni??u iva? n?kki???; >> k??um?, Ka??apuram! e??u k???i???; >> p??a??r ti??am irukka, i?i, iva? >> n??um?? na??u na??u Na?aiy?rarkk?! >> >> The verse is supposed to be the utterance of a mother about her daughter in love with Vi??u. The traditional commentary (p. 965) explains 'p?????r' in the verse by relating it to the Classical Tamil Marutam genre in which the bard acts as a messenger from the husband to his wife , who is mad at him for having gone to the other woman. But then it goes on to explain that 'p??a??r' represents the religious teachers, who act to bring the souls toward 'God' and that in the verse the girl is resolute in her faith because of the religious teachers. And the mother concludes that the resolute girl will not be bashful in expressing her love toward Vi??u. See attachment. >> >> I am not convinced by the commentary's explanation about the association with Marutam, the resoluteness of the bard, who is referred to in a very respectful way, and the lack of bashfulness of the girl. The respectful way the bard is mentioned suggests more of Mullai. Won't a better interpretation be that the mother talks about her daughter, a maiden, who sends a message to her beloved through the bard; the bard comes back with the message that the hero will join her soon; emboldened by this certainty, the maiden has no bashfulness in expressing her love; and the mother is critical of the hero for causing this immodest behavior in her daughter? (Of course, many ti?ai conventions are violated here too.) >> >> I would appreciate any comments on this verse and possible interpretations. >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wbelanger at gmail.com Fri Feb 21 20:37:15 2014 From: wbelanger at gmail.com (Warner Belanger) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 14 15:37:15 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_The_ritual_use_of_k=C4=81r=C4=AB=E1=B9=A3i_instead_of_gomaya?= Message-ID: Dear List Members, I've come across a passage in a Buddhist text which describes the benefits of offering k?r??i at a caitya. I assume that this refers to dry cow dung based on Monier-Williams but also Turner's *A comparative dictionary of Indo-Aryan languages.* I'm not sure for what purpose this would be used ritually. Would it be smeared on the caitya or perhaps used as fuel? Could this word have been used for such a reason instead of gomaya? Any references or ideas would be greatly appreciated. Warner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Feb 21 20:46:41 2014 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 14 15:46:41 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09The_ritual_use_of_k=C4=81r=C4=AB=E1=B9=A3i_instead_of_gomaya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is an interesting example in Sanskrit grammar using the expression k?r??a? agnir adhy?payati "Fire made with [dry cakes of] cow dung helps one study." This probably refers to cold days when there was need for heat. I wonder if offerings of such cakes allowed the Caitya-dwellers to collect fuel. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Warner Belanger wrote: > Dear List Members, > I've come across a passage in a Buddhist text which describes the benefits > of offering k?r??i at a caitya. > I assume that this refers to dry cow dung based on Monier-Williams but > also Turner's *A comparative dictionary of Indo-Aryan languages.* I'm not > sure for what purpose this would be used ritually. Would it be smeared on > the caitya or perhaps used as fuel? Could this word have been used for such > a reason instead of gomaya? > Any references or ideas would be greatly appreciated. > Warner > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 01:40:10 2014 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 14 17:40:10 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_The_ritual_use_of_k=C4=81r=C4=AB=E1=B9=A3i_instead_of_gomaya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <632E108C-F351-4A78-B6CC-2027F53F10D2@gmail.com> Could k?r??i be a corruption of kaariirii, which is a relatively minor ritual (i.s.ti) performed to induce rain fall? The nature of this ritual is such that it could have been common to Brahmanism and Buddhism. Research is making it increasingly clear that as lived religions (as distinct from philosophical religions) Brahmanism and Buddhism were much closer than scholarship has so far taken them to be. (There is also an old article by P.V. Bapat on the names of 'Brahmin' ritual names (;samyaappraasa etc.) occurring in Buddhist texts. I do not have the reference at hand.) If you quote the full passage, it would perhaps be easier to find a solution. a.a. On 2014-02-21, at 12:37 PM, Warner Belanger wrote: > Dear List Members, > I've come across a passage in a Buddhist text which describes the benefits of offering k?r??i at a caitya. > I assume that this refers to dry cow dung based on Monier-Williams but also Turner's A comparative dictionary of Indo-Aryan languages. I'm not sure for what purpose this would be used ritually. Would it be smeared on the caitya or perhaps used as fuel? Could this word have been used for such a reason instead of gomaya? > Any references or ideas would be greatly appreciated. > Warner > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wbelanger at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 03:27:25 2014 From: wbelanger at gmail.com (Warner Belanger) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 14 22:27:25 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09The_ritual_use_of_k=C4=81r=C4=AB=E1=B9=A3i_instead_of_gomaya?= In-Reply-To: <632E108C-F351-4A78-B6CC-2027F53F10D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Of course. Here are the first two verses of the passage. It's from the Second Avalokita S?tra in the Mah?vastu. The word k?r??i occurs in five following verses as well. This section of the 2nd Avalokita S?tra is missing from the Tibetan translation. dharma? karitv? karik?radharma? ?rogyapr?pto care sarvaloke / pra?a?san?yo bhavate janasya k?r??i dattv? jinacetiye?u // akha??a??lo ca ariktadhy?no pr?ptv?na sev?? dhanam aprasahya? / ?j??? karoti bahuk?? janasya k?r??i dattv? jinacetiye?u // On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > Could k?r??i be a corruption of kaariirii, which is a relatively minor > ritual (i.s.ti) performed to induce rain fall? The nature of this ritual > is such that it could have been common to Brahmanism and Buddhism. Research > is making it increasingly clear that as lived religions (as distinct from > philosophical religions) Brahmanism and Buddhism were much closer than > scholarship has so far taken them to be. > > (There is also an old article by P.V. Bapat on the names of 'Brahmin' > ritual names (;samyaappraasa etc.) occurring in Buddhist texts. I do not > have the reference at hand.) > > If you quote the full passage, it would perhaps be easier to find a > solution. > > a.a. > > > On 2014-02-21, at 12:37 PM, Warner Belanger wrote: > > Dear List Members, > I've come across a passage in a Buddhist text which describes the benefits > of offering k?r??i at a caitya. > I assume that this refers to dry cow dung based on Monier-Williams but > also Turner's *A comparative dictionary of Indo-Aryan languages.* I'm not > sure for what purpose this would be used ritually. Would it be smeared on > the caitya or perhaps used as fuel? Could this word have been used for such > a reason instead of gomaya? > Any references or ideas would be greatly appreciated. > Warner > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dchakra at hotmail.de Sat Feb 22 06:12:44 2014 From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 14 11:42:44 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] National Mission for Manuscripts, India! Message-ID: National Mission for Manuscripts http://www.namami.org/history.htm The Director, National Mission for Manuscripts, 11, Mansingh Road, New Delhi ? 110001Ph.: 011-23383894, 011-23073387Fax: 011-23073340 E mail: director.namami at nic.in Website: http://www.namami.org ?This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.? ? Anandamayi Ma ?Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.? - Paracelsus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sat Feb 22 07:30:17 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 14 02:30:17 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Periya_Tirumo=E1=B8=BBi_8.2.2?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8D0FDB711970698-26E8-CDFA@webmail-d289.sysops.aol.com> The closest picture I could get to show how the i??i tree can be rooted in stone is at http://ookaboo.com/o/pictures/noindex/picture.original/12325800/Name_corrected_as_Ficus_mollis_in_Bhongi . This tree is called kal icci. Now if this tree grows it will probably look like this http://www.biotik.org/india/species/f/ficutalb/ficutalb_02_en.html. This tree is called kal itti. We do not know which tree the Classical Tamil poems refer to. I am sure they are closely related species, if not the same in the days of Kapilar. In any case one can see how securely they can be rooted on the side of a mountain/rock face and also how they would resemble a waterfall. As for the suggested meaning, the semantics of 'ivar' is interesting. Compare the usages of ivar in kal ivar mullai (ku?i?cipp???u 77) 'jasmine creeper attaching and spreading on rock', kal ivar i??i 'i??i attaching and spreading on rock' (Ai?ku?un??u 279.1) , and ka?i ivar cilampi? 'of the rock pepper creeper attaches and spreads on'(Akan????u 112.14), on the one hand and ?iva being called M?tu Ivar P?ka? ' man with a part a woman attaches to' (Tiruv?cakam 43.1). In all these cases, the verb ivar attaches some thing to a supportive thing. (See Comacuntara??r says, "kalli?m?? pa??ip pa?artali? kal ivar i??iv?r e????".) The jasmine creeper, i??i tree, pepper creeper, and woman belong to the one group and the rock and man belong to the other/supportive group. In Ku?untokai 106, the hero is the rock and the heroine is the i??i tree. As for the roots of the i??itree resembling a waterfall, the heroine outwardly looks like an innocent girl but she has already united with the heroine. Outsiders do not know that. What appears to be one thing is something else in this case too. Like the rock does not change its position, the hero does not waver in his commitment to her even though he may be separated from her for now. That is the message brought by the messenger. So Wilden's analysis meets all the requirements of having to explain the suggestion in the poem. This also means the ti?ai is Ku?i?ci and there is no need for anger on the part of the heroine, thus matching I?amp?ra?ar's view. The assumption of a deceitful hero by Comacuntara??r ultimately results from his interpreting ney pey t? as a brahminic wedding. He says, "kara?akk?lai ney peyt? tu??i e?untamai ka???? ?tali?". As for Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2, this is an utterance by the heroine's mother. The mother's complaint is about the hero having changed the heroine so that she no longer listens to her mother as she used to. In the Classical Tamil tradition, I do not know of any poem in which the mother talks in Marutam or about the son-in-law's other woman. The respectful reference to p???? cannot be explained something from the bhakti sphere. The poem has to be explained from the akam perspective and bhakti perspective independently. One cannot bring in the role of ?c?ryas in the bhakti sphere to explain the form p??a??r in the akam sphere. The explanation of p??a??r cannot be done on the basis of Marutam. But Ku?i?ci will pose no problem. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: George Hart To: Indology List Sent: Fri, Feb 21, 2014 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 (My last post on this subject). I don't agree. The aerial roots of the fig do not root in stone, as far as I can tell. The word for ?stone? is kal, which can also mean ?mountain,? ?hill.? Most likely the poet means that the aerial roots of the fig (which are brown) reach down on a hill and find stone. Unable to root, they dry out, turn a lighter shade and spread. The image at the beginning of the poem is an u??u?ai, and in such cases the comparison is not to one quality (e.g. moonlike face) but to an action or fact (roots like waterfalls). The point here, clearly I believe, is that what appears to be one thing is something else ? the messenger insists that the hero is good but he actually is not just as it looks as if there are waterfalls in the hero?s land (an image of prosperity and fertility) but what appear to be waterfalls are only the whitening roots of a parasitic plant. Often, when the formula ??n??a?? (man from a land where?.), this sort of u??u?ai is intended. I am pasting in a much more elaborate instance of an u??u?ai in a marutam poem (about the courtesan). Those who work with Sanskrit suggestion may find it interesting, I think. George Hart Akan????u 46. Marutam The friend refuses the request of the hero who asks her to allow him to see the heroine. (This does not seem to fit the poem, which appears to be the words of the heroine.) In your town, a red-eyed buffalo gets tired of being penned in mud and at night, when everyone is asleep, breaks the rope holding him, opens the sharp-thorned fence with his horns and, as the fish all flee from him on the water-filled field, stirs up the va??ai flowers with their lovely throats 5 and eats the cool lotuses while the bees buzz inside them. Who are you that we should be angry with you? Others brought a woman to our house, her dark, falling hair more lovely than a line of descending rain clouds, and said that you had made love to her. We have nothing to say about that? 10 may you live well, my lord. I am as beautiful as A???r thick with stacks of paddy, city of victorious Ce?iya? whose armies have shining spears that cut through and kill in fierce battle with enemies and their elephants, yet if the bright bangles on my arms must grow loose, let them. 15 Go, my lord, no one will keep you here. A???r Na?mullaiy?r OC construes the suggested meaning (u??urai) of this as follows: ?The buffalo has turned its shed into a mire with its water and dung, broken its bond, broken open the fence that is protecting the field with its horns, stirred up the swamp morning glories that surround lotuses so that fish run away, and investigated the lotuses that are closed and unflowering with bees (inside). Like that, you have made her who is protected by you other (i.e. ruined her beauty as she is distraught), broken the bond of shame, broken open the fence that protects the courtesan with the horn of your bard (who serves as a messenger to the courtesan), stirred up the mothers of those courtesans so that the friends who stay with them flee, and been a person who, bursting with egotism, enjoys women who do not welcome you.? 5. Va??ai is the swamp morning glory. Its flowers have the same shape as ordinary morning glories. 6. ?Bees buzz inside them? is va??u ?tu pa?i malar, literally ?the cool flowers where bees hum (or feed).? Because it is night, presumably the lotuses have closed and trapped the bees. 10. ?Had made love to her? is vatuvai ayarnta?ai, which could also mean ?had married her.? On Feb 20, 2014, at 8:15 PM, palaniappa at aol.com wrote: Eva Wilden has already given a satisfactory explanation for the tree and mountain. According to Eva, "more easily to be connected with the rest of the poem may be that SHE is as much rooted in HIM as the I??i in the stone." Analyzing further, the stone can be taken to represent the strong hero and the tree with low aerial roots being the heroine weakened by the separation but still holding on to her faith in the hero. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: George Hart To: palaniappa at aol.com Palaniappan ; Indology List Sent: Thu, Feb 20, 2014 9:57 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Here is a literal translation of Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. In his land, the white roots spreading on the mountain from the dun-colored (i.e. nondescript) runners of the i??i look like waterfalls descending from a hill. The words of his heart that holds no malice have come (to me), friend, and (I took them) as fire takes ghee/oil (OR they were like fire when ghee/oil is poured on it). (Now) I must send a messenger to say that I am the same as when we became (or were) lovers (or were married). Here are two possible interpretations that I see: The image of ghee/oil feeding a fire means that his words, which she did not expect, made her suddenly experience relief and passion. In this case, Palaniappan is correct in interpreting ma?a as union and not marriage, especially as this appears to be a kuri?ci poem dealing with premarital love. The messenger is likely to be a P??a?, though this is not expressed, and the situation, as in other ku?i?ci poems, is that the hero who used to come and see the heroine secretly at night is no longer coming. The heroine becomes distressed but is suddenly heartened when a messenger (P??a??) comes and tells her that the hero still cares for her. She immediately (like oil feeding fire) feels her passion and love flare up and wishes to send a message to the hero to tell him that she still cares and feels the same as when they were lovers. HOWEVER there is a problem with this analysis, and that is the image of the runners and roots of the i??i tree, which clearly are intended to suggest that things are not as they seem. That would suggest that we take ?which holds no malice? as sarcastic and the image of the fire taking the ghee/oil as one of anger flaring up (following the suggestion of the Kazhagam commentator, C?macuntara??r). In that case, ma?a could mean ?marry? and the last line could mean ?the same as when we married.? In this interpretation, the poem, in spite of its ku?i?ci imagery, is really a marutam poem and the hero, who has been with his courtesans, has sent the P??a? off to conciliate his angry wife. She hears his words sanctimoniously describing the hero?s pure heart and sarcastically echoes them, concluding that she will send the messenger to tell him that while he has changed and is unfaithful to her, she has not changed. She wishes to make the hero feel guilty. Of these two interpretations, I think the second one is likely to be the correct one, as otherwise the image at the beginning of the poem does not make sense. The point of the image would appear to be that just as the root of the rather ugly and parasitic i??i tree looks like a beautiful waterfall, the hero?s reprobate heart appears pure. I don?t think the poem can be understood without discovering the intent of the image at its beginning, and that would seem to mean that this has to be a marutam poem. It?s worth noting that Kapilar is one of the greatest Indian poets ? he is unlikely to have put in an image at the beginning of a poem that has no relation to its content. n?? nil? mu??attu ni??u iva? n?kki???; k??um?, Ka??apuram! e??u k???i???; p??a??r ti??am irukka, i?i, iva? n??um?? na??u na??u Na?aiy?rarkk?! A literal translation: She stood on the open space with its long moonlight and looked. And she pointed asking ?Can one see the city of Ka??a? (Krishna) (from here)?? The excellent P??a? was firm, and now will she feel ashamed? A fine thing indeed is this for the person from Na?aiy?r (Vi??u)! It would seem that the hero/Vi??u is leading the heroine on, and that the P??a? is insisting on the hero?s uprightness. The last line suggests that the hero (or Vi??u) is not as upright as the P??a? suggests. This makes sense as a marutam poem, I think ? especially given the last line, which seems to me to have the connotation that the hero is not being honest with the heroine. The poem has two perspectives ? the marutam situation in which the hero is with his courtesans but tries to conciliate the heroine by telling her he is a good person (which he is not, since he is visiting courtesans) and the religious one, in which God is playing with the soul of the devotee and is hard to get. A notable thing about this is that P??a??r is made respective, suggesting that, as the commentary says, the P??a? symbolizes the ?c?ryas whose teachings bring the souls of others to Vi??u. Perhaps the intent is that the ?c?ryas are firm in their teaching, and so devotees who hear them should not feel discouraged or ashamed, even though (last line) Vi??u is elusive. There is a lot of speculation here. I believe that the Ku?untokai poem is probably a marutam poem about the hero visiting his courtesans and the same is true of the verse from the Periya Tirumo?i ? but it?s a tough call, and I would certainly see Palaniappan?s analysis as possible. George On Feb 18, 2014, at 9:40 PM, Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: I think the solution to the problem presented by Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is given by Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. What I am giving below is the poem based on the critical edition by Eva Wilden but with gemination of consonants shown in pu?arcci. pul v?? i??ik kal ivar ve? v?r varai i?i aruviyi? t???um n??a? t?tu il ne?cattuk ki?avi namvayin vanta??u v??i t??i n?mum ney pey t?yi? etirko??u t?m ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukam t?t? The translation below is basically Eva Wilden's except that I have changed 'ghee' to 'oil' for ney. Word has come to us, oh friend, from the faultless heart of the man from a land where, like the waterfall descending the mountain, appears the stone-climbing white root of the talbot fig with low aerial roots, After receiving [his words] like fire into which oil is poured, we too shall send a message saying 'we are still those he united with.' While ney can mean both oil and ghee, ney pey t? simply refers to a situation of 'adding fuel to the fire' as in the following passage from Arttamu??a Intumatam by Kannadasan, showing the common usage of oil being poured into a fire. "???;????? ???? ??????????????, ?????????????? ?????????. ???????? ????? ??????? ???????????? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????????. ??? ????? ??????????????????, ???? ???????????????? ??????? ????????????????? ??????????????????." The notes given by UVS to Ku?untokai 106 show that the commentator I?amp?ra?ar considers the poem to describe a pre-marital situation in which the heroine does not dislike/is not angry at the messenger from the hero. But Nacci??rkki?iyar, another commentator, thinks the poem deals with a situation after marriage. A comment by P?r?ciriyar, another commentator, that receiving 'like fire into which ney is poured', is not possible in a pre-marital situation. May be he associates ney being poured into the fire with the Vedic fire ritual. I do not consider that a likely scenario. In contrast, I?amp?ra?ar's discussion of the poem in Ka?aviyal makes more sense. Wilden is right in translating 'ma?a-' as 'unite' and not as 'marry' as some scholars have done. The waterfall and mountain clearly suggest Ku?i?ci as the landscape, as some scholars have considered. There is nothing in the poem that suggests that there is an 'other woman' in the picture. So I do not agree with T. V. Gopal Iyer's view that this poem belongs to Marutam. Who is the messenger here? According to Tolk?ppiyam Poru?atik?ram, those who are allowed to speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love include p?rpp?? (brahmin/priest), p??ka? (companion), heroine's friend, heroine's foster mother, hero and heroine. Although the commentary for I?aiya??r Ka?aviyal 3 identifies the companion as a p?rpp??, Nacci??rkki?iyar (commentary for Ka?aviyal 10) only says that the companion is "perump??mai p?rpp???m", i.e., in majority of the instances the companion is a brahmin/priest. Although poems like Ku?untokai 156 suggest the companion being a brahmin/priest, Na??i?ai 250 and Na??i?ai 370, in both of which, the hero invites the bard to laugh with him, suggest that the companion could have been a bard earlier. Moreover Nacci??rkki?iyar in his commentary on Tol. P. 193 refers to p??a? as p??ku pa??o?ukum p??a? and p??i?i as talaivim???up p??k?yo?ukum p??i?i even as Tol.P. 193 lists p??ka? separately from the bard and his female counterpart. Interestingly, in their commentaries to the s?tra beginning with "ava?a?i v???a", I?amp?ra?ar considers Na??i?ai 90 as spoken to the hero's companion. But Nacci??kki?iyar considers the same poem as spoken to the bard. Thus whatever be the view of the later grammarians in classifying the companions as distinct from the bards and that only companions could speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love, the internal evidence from the poems suggest that the bards could have been companions too. If that were accepted then, they could have served as messengers not only after marriage but before marriage too. If that were accepted, Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2, makes eminent sense. A maiden being in love with the hero (Vi??u), the bard (p??a??r interpreted as religious teacher) acting as a messenger, and the girl being resolute in passion towards Vi??u, all fit the pre-marital love scenario with no 'other woman' being present. The lack of anger towards the messenger also explains the honorific form, p??a??r. I would appreciate any comments on this solution. Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa To: indology Sent: Sat, Feb 15, 2014 11:19 am Subject: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Even with the understanding that the devotional poems of the Vai??ava saints do not strictly follow the conventions of the Classical Tamil love poetry, the interpretation of Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is perplexing. Here is the verse given in Periya Tirumo?i Ira???m Tokuti (with Periyav?cc?? Pi??ai's commentary translated into Tamil by Ti. V?. K?p?laiyar) produced by EFEO and published by Teyvac C?kki??r Caivacitt?ntap P??ac?lai, Ta?c?v?r, 2006, p. 962. n?? nil? mu??attu ni??u iva? n?kki???; k??um?, Ka??apuram! e??u k???i???; p??a??r ti??am irukka, i?i, iva? n??um?? na??u na??u Na?aiy?rarkk?! The verse is supposed to be the utterance of a mother about her daughter in love with Vi??u. The traditional commentary (p. 965) explains 'p?????r' in the verse by relating it to the Classical Tamil Marutam genre in which the bard acts as a messenger from the husband to his wife , who is mad at him for having gone to the other woman. But then it goes on to explain that 'p??a??r' represents the religious teachers, who act to bring the souls toward 'God' and that in the verse the girl is resolute in her faith because of the religious teachers. And the mother concludes that the resolute girl will not be bashful in expressing her love toward Vi??u. See attachment. I am not convinced by the commentary's explanation about the association with Marutam, the resoluteness of the bard, who is referred to in a very respectful way, and the lack of bashfulness of the girl. The respectful way the bard is mentioned suggests more of Mullai. Won't a better interpretation be that the mother talks about her daughter, a maiden, who sends a message to her beloved through the bard; the bard comes back with the message that the hero will join her soon; emboldened by this certainty, the maiden has no bashfulness in expressing her love; and the mother is critical of the hero for causing this immodest behavior in her daughter? (Of course, many ti?ai conventions are violated here too.) I would appreciate any comments on this verse and possible interpretations. Thanks in advance Regards, Palaniappan _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sat Feb 22 07:52:12 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 14 02:52:12 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Periya_Tirumo=E1=B8=BBi_8.2.2?= In-Reply-To: <8D0FDB711970698-26E8-CDFA@webmail-d289.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0FDBA20FCF4D3-26E8-CFD9@webmail-d289.sysops.aol.com> Sorry, the heroine outwardly looks like an innocent girl but she has already united with the heroine This should be 'the heroine outwardly looks like an innocent girl but she has already united with the hero'. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa To: glhart ; indology Sent: Sat, Feb 22, 2014 1:31 am Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 The closest picture I could get to show how the i??i tree can be rooted in stone is at http://ookaboo.com/o/pictures/noindex/picture.original/12325800/Name_corrected_as_Ficus_mollis_in_Bhongi . This tree is called kal icci. Now if this tree grows it will probably look like this http://www.biotik.org/india/species/f/ficutalb/ficutalb_02_en.html. This tree is called kal itti. We do not know which tree the Classical Tamil poems refer to. I am sure they are closely related species, if not the same in the days of Kapilar. In any case one can see how securely they can be rooted on the side of a mountain/rock face and also how they would resemble a waterfall. As for the suggested meaning, the semantics of 'ivar' is interesting. Compare the usages of ivar in kal ivar mullai (ku?i?cipp???u 77) 'jasmine creeper attaching and spreading on rock', kal ivar i??i 'i??i attaching and spreading on rock' (Ai?ku?un??u 279.1) , and ka?i ivar cilampi? 'of the rock pepper creeper attaches and spreads on'(Akan????u 112.14), on the one hand and ?iva being called M?tu Ivar P?ka? ' man with a part a woman attaches to' (Tiruv?cakam 43.1). In all these cases, the verb ivar attaches some thing to a supportive thing. (See Comacuntara??r says, "kalli?m?? pa??ip pa?artali? kal ivar i??iv?r e????".) The jasmine creeper, i??i tree, pepper creeper, and woman belong to the one group and the rock and man belong to the other/supportive group. In Ku?untokai 106, the hero is the rock and the heroine is the i??i tree. As for the roots of the i??itree resembling a waterfall, the heroine outwardly looks like an innocent girl but she has already united with the heroine. Outsiders do not know that. What appears to be one thing is something else in this case too. Like the rock does not change its position, the hero does not waver in his commitment to her even though he may be separated from her for now. That is the message brought by the messenger. So Wilden's analysis meets all the requirements of having to explain the suggestion in the poem. This also means the ti?ai is Ku?i?ci and there is no need for anger on the part of the heroine, thus matching I?amp?ra?ar's view. The assumption of a deceitful hero by Comacuntara??r ultimately results from his interpreting ney pey t? as a brahminic wedding. He says, "kara?akk?lai ney peyt? tu??i e?untamai ka???? ?tali?". As for Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2, this is an utterance by the heroine's mother. The mother's complaint is about the hero having changed the heroine so that she no longer listens to her mother as she used to. In the Classical Tamil tradition, I do not know of any poem in which the mother talks in Marutam or about the son-in-law's other woman. The respectful reference to p???? cannot be explained something from the bhakti sphere. The poem has to be explained from the akam perspective and bhakti perspective independently. One cannot bring in the role of ?c?ryas in the bhakti sphere to explain the form p??a??r in the akam sphere. The explanation of p??a??r cannot be done on the basis of Marutam. But Ku?i?ci will pose no problem. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: George Hart To: Indology List Sent: Fri, Feb 21, 2014 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 (My last post on this subject). I don't agree. The aerial roots of the fig do not root in stone, as far as I can tell. The word for ?stone? is kal, which can also mean ?mountain,? ?hill.? Most likely the poet means that the aerial roots of the fig (which are brown) reach down on a hill and find stone. Unable to root, they dry out, turn a lighter shade and spread. The image at the beginning of the poem is an u??u?ai, and in such cases the comparison is not to one quality (e.g. moonlike face) but to an action or fact (roots like waterfalls). The point here, clearly I believe, is that what appears to be one thing is something else ? the messenger insists that the hero is good but he actually is not just as it looks as if there are waterfalls in the hero?s land (an image of prosperity and fertility) but what appear to be waterfalls are only the whitening roots of a parasitic plant. Often, when the formula ??n??a?? (man from a land where?.), this sort of u??u?ai is intended. I am pasting in a much more elaborate instance of an u??u?ai in a marutam poem (about the courtesan). Those who work with Sanskrit suggestion may find it interesting, I think. George Hart Akan????u 46. Marutam The friend refuses the request of the hero who asks her to allow him to see the heroine. (This does not seem to fit the poem, which appears to be the words of the heroine.) In your town, a red-eyed buffalo gets tired of being penned in mud and at night, when everyone is asleep, breaks the rope holding him, opens the sharp-thorned fence with his horns and, as the fish all flee from him on the water-filled field, stirs up the va??ai flowers with their lovely throats 5 and eats the cool lotuses while the bees buzz inside them. Who are you that we should be angry with you? Others brought a woman to our house, her dark, falling hair more lovely than a line of descending rain clouds, and said that you had made love to her. We have nothing to say about that? 10 may you live well, my lord. I am as beautiful as A???r thick with stacks of paddy, city of victorious Ce?iya? whose armies have shining spears that cut through and kill in fierce battle with enemies and their elephants, yet if the bright bangles on my arms must grow loose, let them. 15 Go, my lord, no one will keep you here. A???r Na?mullaiy?r OC construes the suggested meaning (u??urai) of this as follows: ?The buffalo has turned its shed into a mire with its water and dung, broken its bond, broken open the fence that is protecting the field with its horns, stirred up the swamp morning glories that surround lotuses so that fish run away, and investigated the lotuses that are closed and unflowering with bees (inside). Like that, you have made her who is protected by you other (i.e. ruined her beauty as she is distraught), broken the bond of shame, broken open the fence that protects the courtesan with the horn of your bard (who serves as a messenger to the courtesan), stirred up the mothers of those courtesans so that the friends who stay with them flee, and been a person who, bursting with egotism, enjoys women who do not welcome you.? 5. Va??ai is the swamp morning glory. Its flowers have the same shape as ordinary morning glories. 6. ?Bees buzz inside them? is va??u ?tu pa?i malar, literally ?the cool flowers where bees hum (or feed).? Because it is night, presumably the lotuses have closed and trapped the bees. 10. ?Had made love to her? is vatuvai ayarnta?ai, which could also mean ?had married her.? On Feb 20, 2014, at 8:15 PM, palaniappa at aol.com wrote: Eva Wilden has already given a satisfactory explanation for the tree and mountain. According to Eva, "more easily to be connected with the rest of the poem may be that SHE is as much rooted in HIM as the I??i in the stone." Analyzing further, the stone can be taken to represent the strong hero and the tree with low aerial roots being the heroine weakened by the separation but still holding on to her faith in the hero. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: George Hart To: palaniappa at aol.com Palaniappan ; Indology List Sent: Thu, Feb 20, 2014 9:57 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Here is a literal translation of Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. In his land, the white roots spreading on the mountain from the dun-colored (i.e. nondescript) runners of the i??i look like waterfalls descending from a hill. The words of his heart that holds no malice have come (to me), friend, and (I took them) as fire takes ghee/oil (OR they were like fire when ghee/oil is poured on it). (Now) I must send a messenger to say that I am the same as when we became (or were) lovers (or were married). Here are two possible interpretations that I see: The image of ghee/oil feeding a fire means that his words, which she did not expect, made her suddenly experience relief and passion. In this case, Palaniappan is correct in interpreting ma?a as union and not marriage, especially as this appears to be a kuri?ci poem dealing with premarital love. The messenger is likely to be a P??a?, though this is not expressed, and the situation, as in other ku?i?ci poems, is that the hero who used to come and see the heroine secretly at night is no longer coming. The heroine becomes distressed but is suddenly heartened when a messenger (P??a??) comes and tells her that the hero still cares for her. She immediately (like oil feeding fire) feels her passion and love flare up and wishes to send a message to the hero to tell him that she still cares and feels the same as when they were lovers. HOWEVER there is a problem with this analysis, and that is the image of the runners and roots of the i??i tree, which clearly are intended to suggest that things are not as they seem. That would suggest that we take ?which holds no malice? as sarcastic and the image of the fire taking the ghee/oil as one of anger flaring up (following the suggestion of the Kazhagam commentator, C?macuntara??r). In that case, ma?a could mean ?marry? and the last line could mean ?the same as when we married.? In this interpretation, the poem, in spite of its ku?i?ci imagery, is really a marutam poem and the hero, who has been with his courtesans, has sent the P??a? off to conciliate his angry wife. She hears his words sanctimoniously describing the hero?s pure heart and sarcastically echoes them, concluding that she will send the messenger to tell him that while he has changed and is unfaithful to her, she has not changed. She wishes to make the hero feel guilty. Of these two interpretations, I think the second one is likely to be the correct one, as otherwise the image at the beginning of the poem does not make sense. The point of the image would appear to be that just as the root of the rather ugly and parasitic i??i tree looks like a beautiful waterfall, the hero?s reprobate heart appears pure. I don?t think the poem can be understood without discovering the intent of the image at its beginning, and that would seem to mean that this has to be a marutam poem. It?s worth noting that Kapilar is one of the greatest Indian poets ? he is unlikely to have put in an image at the beginning of a poem that has no relation to its content. n?? nil? mu??attu ni??u iva? n?kki???; k??um?, Ka??apuram! e??u k???i???; p??a??r ti??am irukka, i?i, iva? n??um?? na??u na??u Na?aiy?rarkk?! A literal translation: She stood on the open space with its long moonlight and looked. And she pointed asking ?Can one see the city of Ka??a? (Krishna) (from here)?? The excellent P??a? was firm, and now will she feel ashamed? A fine thing indeed is this for the person from Na?aiy?r (Vi??u)! It would seem that the hero/Vi??u is leading the heroine on, and that the P??a? is insisting on the hero?s uprightness. The last line suggests that the hero (or Vi??u) is not as upright as the P??a? suggests. This makes sense as a marutam poem, I think ? especially given the last line, which seems to me to have the connotation that the hero is not being honest with the heroine. The poem has two perspectives ? the marutam situation in which the hero is with his courtesans but tries to conciliate the heroine by telling her he is a good person (which he is not, since he is visiting courtesans) and the religious one, in which God is playing with the soul of the devotee and is hard to get. A notable thing about this is that P??a??r is made respective, suggesting that, as the commentary says, the P??a? symbolizes the ?c?ryas whose teachings bring the souls of others to Vi??u. Perhaps the intent is that the ?c?ryas are firm in their teaching, and so devotees who hear them should not feel discouraged or ashamed, even though (last line) Vi??u is elusive. There is a lot of speculation here. I believe that the Ku?untokai poem is probably a marutam poem about the hero visiting his courtesans and the same is true of the verse from the Periya Tirumo?i ? but it?s a tough call, and I would certainly see Palaniappan?s analysis as possible. George On Feb 18, 2014, at 9:40 PM, Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: I think the solution to the problem presented by Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is given by Ku?untokai 106 by Kapilar. What I am giving below is the poem based on the critical edition by Eva Wilden but with gemination of consonants shown in pu?arcci. pul v?? i??ik kal ivar ve? v?r varai i?i aruviyi? t???um n??a? t?tu il ne?cattuk ki?avi namvayin vanta??u v??i t??i n?mum ney pey t?yi? etirko??u t?m ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukam t?t? The translation below is basically Eva Wilden's except that I have changed 'ghee' to 'oil' for ney. Word has come to us, oh friend, from the faultless heart of the man from a land where, like the waterfall descending the mountain, appears the stone-climbing white root of the talbot fig with low aerial roots, After receiving [his words] like fire into which oil is poured, we too shall send a message saying 'we are still those he united with.' While ney can mean both oil and ghee, ney pey t? simply refers to a situation of 'adding fuel to the fire' as in the following passage from Arttamu??a Intumatam by Kannadasan, showing the common usage of oil being poured into a fire. "???;????? ???? ??????????????, ?????????????? ?????????. ???????? ????? ??????? ???????????? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????????. ??? ????? ??????????????????, ???? ???????????????? ??????? ????????????????? ??????????????????." The notes given by UVS to Ku?untokai 106 show that the commentator I?amp?ra?ar considers the poem to describe a pre-marital situation in which the heroine does not dislike/is not angry at the messenger from the hero. But Nacci??rkki?iyar, another commentator, thinks the poem deals with a situation after marriage. A comment by P?r?ciriyar, another commentator, that receiving 'like fire into which ney is poured', is not possible in a pre-marital situation. May be he associates ney being poured into the fire with the Vedic fire ritual. I do not consider that a likely scenario. In contrast, I?amp?ra?ar's discussion of the poem in Ka?aviyal makes more sense. Wilden is right in translating 'ma?a-' as 'unite' and not as 'marry' as some scholars have done. The waterfall and mountain clearly suggest Ku?i?ci as the landscape, as some scholars have considered. There is nothing in the poem that suggests that there is an 'other woman' in the picture. So I do not agree with T. V. Gopal Iyer's view that this poem belongs to Marutam. Who is the messenger here? According to Tolk?ppiyam Poru?atik?ram, those who are allowed to speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love include p?rpp?? (brahmin/priest), p??ka? (companion), heroine's friend, heroine's foster mother, hero and heroine. Although the commentary for I?aiya??r Ka?aviyal 3 identifies the companion as a p?rpp??, Nacci??rkki?iyar (commentary for Ka?aviyal 10) only says that the companion is "perump??mai p?rpp???m", i.e., in majority of the instances the companion is a brahmin/priest. Although poems like Ku?untokai 156 suggest the companion being a brahmin/priest, Na??i?ai 250 and Na??i?ai 370, in both of which, the hero invites the bard to laugh with him, suggest that the companion could have been a bard earlier. Moreover Nacci??rkki?iyar in his commentary on Tol. P. 193 refers to p??a? as p??ku pa??o?ukum p??a? and p??i?i as talaivim???up p??k?yo?ukum p??i?i even as Tol.P. 193 lists p??ka? separately from the bard and his female counterpart. Interestingly, in their commentaries to the s?tra beginning with "ava?a?i v???a", I?amp?ra?ar considers Na??i?ai 90 as spoken to the hero's companion. But Nacci??kki?iyar considers the same poem as spoken to the bard. Thus whatever be the view of the later grammarians in classifying the companions as distinct from the bards and that only companions could speak in poems dealing with pre-marital love, the internal evidence from the poems suggest that the bards could have been companions too. If that were accepted then, they could have served as messengers not only after marriage but before marriage too. If that were accepted, Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2, makes eminent sense. A maiden being in love with the hero (Vi??u), the bard (p??a??r interpreted as religious teacher) acting as a messenger, and the girl being resolute in passion towards Vi??u, all fit the pre-marital love scenario with no 'other woman' being present. The lack of anger towards the messenger also explains the honorific form, p??a??r. I would appreciate any comments on this solution. Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa To: indology Sent: Sat, Feb 15, 2014 11:19 am Subject: [INDOLOGY] Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 Even with the understanding that the devotional poems of the Vai??ava saints do not strictly follow the conventions of the Classical Tamil love poetry, the interpretation of Periya Tirumo?i 8.2.2 is perplexing. Here is the verse given in Periya Tirumo?i Ira???m Tokuti (with Periyav?cc?? Pi??ai's commentary translated into Tamil by Ti. V?. K?p?laiyar) produced by EFEO and published by Teyvac C?kki??r Caivacitt?ntap P??ac?lai, Ta?c?v?r, 2006, p. 962. n?? nil? mu??attu ni??u iva? n?kki???; k??um?, Ka??apuram! e??u k???i???; p??a??r ti??am irukka, i?i, iva? n??um?? na??u na??u Na?aiy?rarkk?! The verse is supposed to be the utterance of a mother about her daughter in love with Vi??u. The traditional commentary (p. 965) explains 'p?????r' in the verse by relating it to the Classical Tamil Marutam genre in which the bard acts as a messenger from the husband to his wife , who is mad at him for having gone to the other woman. But then it goes on to explain that 'p??a??r' represents the religious teachers, who act to bring the souls toward 'God' and that in the verse the girl is resolute in her faith because of the religious teachers. And the mother concludes that the resolute girl will not be bashful in expressing her love toward Vi??u. See attachment. I am not convinced by the commentary's explanation about the association with Marutam, the resoluteness of the bard, who is referred to in a very respectful way, and the lack of bashfulness of the girl. The respectful way the bard is mentioned suggests more of Mullai. Won't a better interpretation be that the mother talks about her daughter, a maiden, who sends a message to her beloved through the bard; the bard comes back with the message that the hero will join her soon; emboldened by this certainty, the maiden has no bashfulness in expressing her love; and the mother is critical of the hero for causing this immodest behavior in her daughter? (Of course, many ti?ai conventions are violated here too.) I would appreciate any comments on this verse and possible interpretations. Thanks in advance Regards, Palaniappan _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sat Feb 22 15:10:41 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 14 10:10:41 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] lighting lamps and cooking meat in north Indian tradition Message-ID: <8D0FDF76278E768-1B48-9301@webmail-m156.sysops.aol.com> Dear Indologists, When one reads the glosses provided by traditional and modern commentators of Classical Tamil texts, one would come away with the impression that except in the coastal areas, people cooked meat in ghee, and lit lamps with ghee. Although in medieval times ghee from cow's milk and goat's milk were used to light lamps in temples, I do not think most people used ghee to light lamps. After all, in Tamil we call castor oil as vi?akke??ai (lamp oil) and coconut oil as ve?icce??ai (brightness oil). Similarly, for frying and deep-frying meat items, the commentators leave the term 'ney' unexplained giving the impression that they were cooked in ghee. As expected translators of the poems, translate all these instances as meat items have been cooked in ghee! (One would also see all the spears and arrows in the armory being smeared with ghee too!) According to a culinary expert, traditionally meat items are cooked in oil in Tamil Nadu and Kerala. I would appreciate if someone can provide information on what Indo-Aryan texts say about the different uses of ghee and oil for cooking and lighting. Thanks in advance Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Sat Feb 22 20:17:53 2014 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 14 20:17:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Message-ID: I had another look at Ku?untokai 106, discussed earlier by Palaniappan and Hart: ? t?ti ?e?cattuk kil?avi namvayi? vanta??u v??i t??i n?mu neypey t?yi? etirko??u t?m(/t??/ta?) ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukan t?t?. As I see it, the real problem of the poem consists of the construction of two verbal participles, or absolutives, etirko??u and ma?antu, followed by a?aiyam ?we are like that?. The construction is rare but I found one other instance in Na??i?ai 179, lines 6-7 (v??kuva?al? vimmi nerunalum a?aiyal?) about a spoilt girl who refuses to drink the sweet milk her mother gave her, sobbing (vimmi, a verbal participle) and clamouring for more extravagant sweets (v??kuva?al?, a participial noun). Only yesterday the girl behaved like that (a?aiyal?) but just now she ran away with a unknown ? and poor ? fellow. No more sweet milk for her! If this is how the construction works, the situation underlying our Ku?untokai poems may be described in the following way. The woman speaking had sulked, her lover had fled away and sent a messenger telling that he does not understand why she was angry at him. She replies that sulking is just part of the play: making love (ma?antu) after a quarrel (opposing the lover's avances, etirko??u, flaring up like fire into which ghee/oil is poured) is special. Compare Sattasa? 522 in the translation by Peter Khoroche and me (Poems of Life and Love in Ancient India. H?la's Sattasa?, p. 115): ?After every quarrel, it's true/The pleasures of love taste new. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 21:12:21 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 14 22:12:21 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Information on position of Sanskrit professor in Paris In-Reply-To: <1472409645.14194.1393095869931.JavaMail.www@wwinf1d32> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Nalini BALBIR" Date: 22 Feb 2014 20:04 Subject: Information on position of Sanskrit professor in Paris >... > I would be grateful to you if you could post the information contained in the file attached to this message on Indology. ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: InformationPositionSanskritProfParis.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 26191 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: InformationPositionSanskritProfessorParis.doc Type: application/msword Size: 30720 bytes Desc: not available URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sat Feb 22 22:34:39 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 14 17:34:39 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Message-ID: <8D0FE3567F2AC15-1B48-B6E0@webmail-m156.sysops.aol.com> Dear Herman, ma?anta?aiyam < ma?anta + a?aiyam Compare y?? ka??a?aiyar in Pu?. 191.4 c?r nacainta?aiy?y in Ku?. 52.2 The meaning of etirko? is the opposite of what you have indicated. See Tamil Lexicon entry below. ?????????(??)-??? etir-ko?- , v. tr. < ?????? +. [T. edurkonu.] 1. To advance or go towards a guest or great person to meet, welcome and receive him; ?????????. ?????? ????????????????? (?????. 36). 2. To accept; ????????????????. ????? ???????????? (??. ??. 9, 32). The scenario you envisage will not apply here. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: indology Sent: Sat, Feb 22, 2014 2:18 pm Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 I had another look atKu?untokai 106, discussed earlier by Palaniappan and Hart: ? t?ti ?e?cattuk kil?avi namvayi? vanta??u v??i t??i n?mu neypey t?yi? etirko??u t?m(/t??/ta?) ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukan t?t?. As I see it, the real problem of the poem consists of the construction of two verbal participles, or absolutives,etirko??u and ma?antu, followed by a?aiyam ?we are like that?. The construction is rare but I found one other instance inNa??i?ai 179, lines 6-7 (v??kuva?al? vimmi nerunalum a?aiyal?) about a spoilt girl who refuses to drink the sweet milk her mother gave her, sobbing (vimmi, a verbal participle) and clamouring for more extravagant sweets (v??kuva?al?, a participial noun). Only yesterday the girl behaved like that (a?aiyal?) but just now she ran away with a unknown ? and poor ? fellow. No more sweet milk for her! If this is how the construction works, the situation underlying ourKu?untokai poems may be described in the following way. The woman speaking had sulked, her lover had fled away and sent a messenger telling that he does not understand why she was angry at him. She replies that sulking is just part of the play: making love (ma?antu) after a quarrel (opposing the lover's avances, etirko??u, flaring up like fire into which ghee/oil is poured) is special. Compare Sattasa? 522 in the translation by Peter Khoroche and me (Poems of Life and Love in Ancient India. H?la's Sattasa?, p. 115): ?After every quarrel, it's true/The pleasures of love taste new. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanus1216 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 23 01:36:37 2014 From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com (Allen Thrasher) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 14 17:36:37 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? In-Reply-To: <530660BF.1040209@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <1393119397.98950.YahooMailNeo@web163004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> No one seems to have addressed Jarrod's query whether the *in comes from Persian or Arabic.? Can anyone address what the possible words for brahmana are in these?? Also, Hobson-Jobson s.v. Brahmin cites early Portuguese examples with *en: in the lural Brahmenes (Camoes, 1572) and in the singular Bragmen (Acosta, 1578).? See the online H-J at http://tinyurl.com/mmodvxs Allen On Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:09 PM, Jarrod Whitaker wrote: Dear Colleagues: When does the word "B/brahmin" ("priest, priestly class") with a final "-in" begin to be used/appear? I have always assumed that it appeared with the colonial encounter and thus it was a Anglocized (perhaps Franco-cized?) way of representing the final short schwa sound of "brahman". Does it have an older history in Arabic/Mughal writing? It surely is not a final Sanskrit "-in" stem (I have never heard of a Brahmii priest), but perhaps it has a regional/dialect use somewhere in India... Silly question but frustrating nonetheless when trying to unpack the complex use of the term brahman and its various meanings to students and the fact that textbooks are not uniform in how they represent the term and its derivatives (B/braahmaan.a [and more rarely Braahman. with final retroflex "n," which is curious in and of itself], B/brahman, or, of course our current Brahmin....[throw into the mix lower case, sometimes italicized brahman from Upanishads and god Brahmaa and students think you are just messing with them]). Cheers JW Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. Associate Professor, South Asian Religions Zachary T. Smith Faculty Fellow Graduate Program Director Wake Forest University Department of Religion P.O. Box 7212 Winston-Salem, NC? 27109 whitakjl at wfu.edu p 336.758.4162 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Feb 23 10:43:33 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 14 11:43:33 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Information on position of Sanskrit professor in Paris Message-ID: Here is the job advertisement as text, in case the attachments caused trouble. --? *Position of Professor of Sanskrit language and literatures at the University Paris-3 Sorbonne-Nouvelle* The University Paris-3 Sorbonne-Nouvelle will appoint a specialist of Sanskrit language and literatures as Professor at the University of Paris-3 (*?PR 0861 Langue et litt?ratures sanskrites?*), *D?partement Etudes arabes, h?bra?ques, iraniennes et indiennes, UFR Langues, Litt?ratures, Civilisations et Soci?t?s Etrang?res*. All areas of expertise in this broad field are welcome *insofar as they are complementary with those already represented in the Department.* The successful candidate will be expected to teach courses at all levels concerned by the curriculum of Indian studies at the University of Paris-3, from Sanskrit for beginners to advanced students (*Licence, Master, Doctorat*). He/she will supervise Master and Doctoral research in various fields of classical Indian studies and play a major role in the further development of this field. He/she will be affiliated to the UMR 7528 *?Mondes iranien et indien?* and contribute research in Sanskrit and related areas of his/her expertise with publications, organizations of seminars, etc.. It is expected that he/she will be directing innovative research projects at an international level. The successful candidate will start at the beginning of the next academic year (September-October 2014). * Application* 1) French applicants need to hold a valid qualification for professorship by the *Conseil National des Universit?s*. 2) Applicants who already hold a position equivalent to the one advertised in a University outside France can apply without having been qualified by the *Conseil National des Universit?s*. The decision on the receivability of their applications will be made by the Scientific Council of the University Paris-3 on the basis of two reports on their work presented by two colleagues of the field (one internal and one external). If acceptable, their files will be transmitted to the relevant selection committee. All applicants should follow the procedure as indicated in *GALAXIE*. *https://www.galaxie.enseignementsup-recherche.gouv.fr/ensup/cand_recrutement.htm *. The applications will have to be entered in *GALAXIE* between 27 February (10 a.m.) and 1st April (4 p.m.). See *http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000021158665 *for more details, especially Articles 11 and 12. University of Paris-3 Sorbonne Nouvelle Prof. Dr. Nalini Balbir, head of the Selection Committee (*nalini.balbir at univ-paris3.fr *) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Sun Feb 23 11:42:23 2014 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 14 11:42:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 In-Reply-To: <8D0FE3567F2AC15-1B48-B6E0@webmail-m156.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Dr Palaniappan, Thank you for the other instances of the construction. Especially Pu?an????u 191, line 4 is interesting: y?? ka??a?aiyar e?? il?aiyar, literally, ?My kum?ras see what I see? (in Hart's translation: ?My servants do what I wish?). Here there is a change of subject between the respective clauses: I see, they (act) like that?. This offers an explanation for t?m in t?m ma?anta?aiyam: ?To enjoy a more intense love-making they (t?m) first reject the lover. We women operate in that way.? By the way, I fail to see why ma?anta?aiyam should be analyzed as ma?anta (an adjectival participle) plus a?aiyam, as suggested by Eva Wilden. If you don't mind, I stick to my interpretation of the phrase ?'receiving' a person like fire into which ghee/oil is poured?. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 22 februari 2014 23:34 To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Herman, ma?anta?aiyam < ma?anta + a?aiyam Compare y?? ka??a?aiyar in Pu?. 191.4 c?r nacainta?aiy?y in Ku?. 52.2 The meaning of etirko? is the opposite of what you have indicated. See Tamil Lexicon entry below. ?????????(??)-??? etir-ko?- , v. tr. < ?????? +. [T. edurkonu.] 1. To advance or go towards a guest or great person to meet, welcome and receive him; ?????????. ?????? ????????????????? (?????. 36). 2. To accept; ????????????????. ????? ???????????? (??. ??. 9, 32). The scenario you envisage will not apply here. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: indology Sent: Sat, Feb 22, 2014 2:18 pm Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 I had another look at Ku?untokai 106, discussed earlier by Palaniappan and Hart: ? t?ti ?e?cattuk kil?avi namvayi? vanta??u v??i t??i n?mu neypey t?yi? etirko??u t?m(/t??/ta?) ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukan t?t?. As I see it, the real problem of the poem consists of the construction of two verbal participles, or absolutives, etirko??u and ma?antu, followed by a?aiyam ?we are like that?. The construction is rare but I found one other instance in Na??i?ai 179, lines 6-7 (v??kuva?al? vimmi nerunalum a?aiyal?) about a spoilt girl who refuses to drink the sweet milk her mother gave her, sobbing (vimmi, a verbal participle) and clamouring for more extravagant sweets (v??kuva?al?, a participial noun). Only yesterday the girl behaved like that (a?aiyal?) but just now she ran away with a unknown ? and poor ? fellow. No more sweet milk for her! If this is how the construction works, the situation underlying our Ku?untokai poems may be described in the following way. The woman speaking had sulked, her lover had fled away and sent a messenger telling that he does not understand why she was angry at him. She replies that sulking is just part of the play: making love (ma?antu) after a quarrel (opposing the lover's avances, etirko??u, flaring up like fire into which ghee/oil is poured) is special. Compare Sattasa? 522 in the translation by Peter Khoroche and me (Poems of Life and Love in Ancient India. H?la's Sattasa?, p. 115): ?After every quarrel, it's true/The pleasures of love taste new. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Feb 23 11:54:29 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 14 12:54:29 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? In-Reply-To: <1393119397.98950.YahooMailNeo@web163004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: *The OED:Forms:* ME?16 *bragman*, 15 *bramane*, 16?18 *brachman(e*, *brachmin*, 16 *brackman*, *braman*, *bramen*, *bramine*, *braminy*, 17?18 *bramin*, 17? *brahmin*, 18 *brahman*. *Etymology:* < Sanskrit *br?hmana*, < *brahman* praise, worship; some of the older English forms were derived from or influenced by the Greek spelling *?????????* (plural), Latin *brachm?ni*, *brachm?nes*, and medieval Latin corruptions; the form *Brahmin*, a corruption of the Indian vernacular pronunciation, is still all but universal in popular use; during the 19th cent. Orientalists adopted the more correct *Brahman*, which (often written *Br?hman* or *Br?hman*) is employed by most writers on India. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sun Feb 23 19:13:06 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 14 14:13:06 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Message-ID: <8D0FEE26A7A24BF-14F4-14A58@webmail-vm002.sysops.aol.com> Dear Dr. Tieken, In Pu?am 191, the question is how come the poet has no gray hair in spite of being many years old. The answer should really address the past. It is because of the past good behavior of his family members and servants that he does not have gray hair today. That is why he uses the past forms in m??t-, nirampi-, and ka??-. But the past behavior of people involved continues in the present too. This is what the poet chose to show in the case of the king k?kkum. Grammatically, the servants were of the same nature the poet has intended all these years. ma?anta?aiyam means literally 'we are of the same nature (the hero) united.' That we are talking about an adjectival participial construction can be seen in pulakkum a?aiy?m in Ku?untokai 164.5-6. That is why Eva is right. Coming to the roots of i??i looking like a waterfall, I have attached a picture showing a miniature version of what Kapilar might have seen. The Ficus variety is possibly different but the behavior of the roots seen here clearly show what we are talking about. If one focuses on the roots and rock, they just look like a white waterfall on a dock rock. The roots of the tree are behaving just like a creeper. They attach themselves to the rock and spread. The roots grab the rock surface and also get into any crevices and ridges. That is why they follow the horizontal line between stones in the photo I sent yesterday. With such a creeper-like behavior, I do not know how anybody steeped in Tamil culture can think of the roots of i??i with the hero. Even a lay Tamil just listening to film songs will associate a creeper with a female as in the film song below. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaxGu--YQpQ That C?macuntara??r, in spite of his own description of i??i as attaching and spreading which is clearly the nature of creepers, associated the roots with the hero shows the cascading (:-)) consequences of interpreting ney as ghee. If a big tree has to survive on a rock, one can only imagine how strongly the roots should be attached to the rock. That is the whole point Kapilar is making. The heroine has already made love to the hero and has united in love with him like the roots of i??i attached to the rock. Kapilar's knowledge of the mountainous landscape and his skill in weaving this multi-layerd picture are simply amazing! In my opinion, Eva got the essence of the poem right, Comacuntara??r missed the mark. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: palaniappa ; indology Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 5:42 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Dr Palaniappan, Thank you for the other instances of the construction. Especially Pu?an????u 191, line 4 is interesting:y?? ka??a?aiyar e?? il?aiyar, literally, ?My kum?ras see what I see? (in Hart's translation: ?My servants do what I wish?). Here there is a change of subject between the respective clauses:I see, they (act) like that?. This offers an explanation for t?m int?m ma?anta?aiyam: ?To enjoy a more intense love-making they (t?m) first reject the lover.We women operate in that way.? By the way, I fail to see whyma?anta?aiyam should be analyzed as ma?anta (an adjectival participle) plus a?aiyam, as suggested by Eva Wilden. If you don't mind, I stick to my interpretation of the phrase ?'receiving' a person like fire into which ghee/oil is poured?. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 22 februari 2014 23:34 To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Herman, ma?anta?aiyam < ma?anta + a?aiyam Compare y?? ka??a?aiyarin Pu?. 191.4 c?r nacainta?aiy?yinKu?. 52.2 The meaning ofetirko? is the opposite of what you have indicated. See Tamil Lexicon entry below. ?????????(??)-??? etir-ko?- , v. tr. < ?????? +. [T. edurkonu.] 1. To advance or go towards a guest or great person to meet, welcome and receive him; ?????????. ?????? ????????????????? (?????. 36). 2. To accept; ????????????????. ????? ???????????? (??. ??. 9, 32). The scenario you envisage will not apply here. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: indology Sent: Sat, Feb 22, 2014 2:18 pm Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 I had another look atKu?untokai 106, discussed earlier by Palaniappan and Hart: ? t?ti ?e?cattuk kil?avi namvayi? vanta??u v??i t??i n?mu neypey t?yi? etirko??u t?m(/t??/ta?) ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukan t?t?. As I see it, the real problem of the poem consists of the construction of two verbal participles, or absolutives,etirko??u and ma?antu, followed by a?aiyam ?we are like that?. The construction is rare but I found one other instance inNa??i?ai 179, lines 6-7 (v??kuva?al? vimmi nerunalum a?aiyal?) about a spoilt girl who refuses to drink the sweet milk her mother gave her, sobbing (vimmi, a verbal participle) and clamouring for more extravagant sweets (v??kuva?al?, a participial noun). Only yesterday the girl behaved like that (a?aiyal?) but just now she ran away with a unknown ? and poor ? fellow. No more sweet milk for her! If this is how the construction works, the situation underlying ourKu?untokai poems may be described in the following way. The woman speaking had sulked, her lover had fled away and sent a messenger telling that he does not understand why she was angry at him. She replies that sulking is just part of the play: making love (ma?antu) after a quarrel (opposing the lover's avances, etirko??u, flaring up like fire into which ghee/oil is poured) is special. Compare Sattasa? 522 in the translation by Peter Khoroche and me (Poems of Life and Love in Ancient India. H?la's Sattasa?, p. 115): ?After every quarrel, it's true/The pleasures of love taste new. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Ficus_on_Rock-small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 814111 bytes Desc: not available URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sun Feb 23 19:19:53 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 14 14:19:53 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 In-Reply-To: <8D0FEE26A7A24BF-14F4-14A58@webmail-vm002.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0FEE35D360515-14F4-14B76@webmail-vm002.sysops.aol.com> Sorry, in the post below, 'dock rock' should really be 'dark rock'. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa To: H.J.H.Tieken ; indology Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Dr. Tieken, In Pu?am 191, the question is how come the poet has no gray hair in spite of being many years old. The answer should really address the past. It is because of the past good behavior of his family members and servants that he does not have gray hair today. That is why he uses the past forms in m??t-, nirampi-, and ka??-. But the past behavior of people involved continues in the present too. This is what the poet chose to show in the case of the king k?kkum. Grammatically, the servants were of the same nature the poet has intended all these years. ma?anta?aiyam means literally 'we are of the same nature (the hero) united.' That we are talking about an adjectival participial construction can be seen in pulakkum a?aiy?m in Ku?untokai 164.5-6. That is why Eva is right. Coming to the roots of i??i looking like a waterfall, I have attached a picture showing a miniature version of what Kapilar might have seen. The Ficus variety is possibly different but the behavior of the roots seen here clearly show what we are talking about. If one focuses on the roots and rock, they just look like a white waterfall on a dock rock. The roots of the tree are behaving just like a creeper. They attach themselves to the rock and spread. The roots grab the rock surface and also get into any crevices and ridges. That is why they follow the horizontal line between stones in the photo I sent yesterday. With such a creeper-like behavior, I do not know how anybody steeped in Tamil culture can think of the roots of i??i with the hero. Even a lay Tamil just listening to film songs will associate a creeper with a female as in the film song below. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaxGu--YQpQ That C?macuntara??r, in spite of his own description of i??i as attaching and spreading which is clearly the nature of creepers, associated the roots with the hero shows the cascading (:-)) consequences of interpreting ney as ghee. If a big tree has to survive on a rock, one can only imagine how strongly the roots should be attached to the rock. That is the whole point Kapilar is making. The heroine has already made love to the hero and has united in love with him like the roots of i??i attached to the rock. Kapilar's knowledge of the mountainous landscape and his skill in weaving this multi-layerd picture are simply amazing! In my opinion, Eva got the essence of the poem right, Comacuntara??r missed the mark. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: palaniappa ; indology Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 5:42 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Dr Palaniappan, Thank you for the other instances of the construction. Especially Pu?an????u 191, line 4 is interesting:y?? ka??a?aiyar e?? il?aiyar, literally, ?My kum?ras see what I see? (in Hart's translation: ?My servants do what I wish?). Here there is a change of subject between the respective clauses:I see, they (act) like that?. This offers an explanation for t?m int?m ma?anta?aiyam: ?To enjoy a more intense love-making they (t?m) first reject the lover.We women operate in that way.? By the way, I fail to see whyma?anta?aiyam should be analyzed as ma?anta (an adjectival participle) plus a?aiyam, as suggested by Eva Wilden. If you don't mind, I stick to my interpretation of the phrase ?'receiving' a person like fire into which ghee/oil is poured?. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 22 februari 2014 23:34 To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Herman, ma?anta?aiyam < ma?anta + a?aiyam Compare y?? ka??a?aiyarin Pu?. 191.4 c?r nacainta?aiy?yinKu?. 52.2 The meaning ofetirko? is the opposite of what you have indicated. See Tamil Lexicon entry below. ?????????(??)-??? etir-ko?- , v. tr. < ?????? +. [T. edurkonu.] 1. To advance or go towards a guest or great person to meet, welcome and receive him; ?????????. ?????? ????????????????? (?????. 36). 2. To accept; ????????????????. ????? ???????????? (??. ??. 9, 32). The scenario you envisage will not apply here. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: indology Sent: Sat, Feb 22, 2014 2:18 pm Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 I had another look atKu?untokai 106, discussed earlier by Palaniappan and Hart: ? t?ti ?e?cattuk kil?avi namvayi? vanta??u v??i t??i n?mu neypey t?yi? etirko??u t?m(/t??/ta?) ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukan t?t?. As I see it, the real problem of the poem consists of the construction of two verbal participles, or absolutives,etirko??u and ma?antu, followed by a?aiyam ?we are like that?. The construction is rare but I found one other instance inNa??i?ai 179, lines 6-7 (v??kuva?al? vimmi nerunalum a?aiyal?) about a spoilt girl who refuses to drink the sweet milk her mother gave her, sobbing (vimmi, a verbal participle) and clamouring for more extravagant sweets (v??kuva?al?, a participial noun). Only yesterday the girl behaved like that (a?aiyal?) but just now she ran away with a unknown ? and poor ? fellow. No more sweet milk for her! If this is how the construction works, the situation underlying ourKu?untokai poems may be described in the following way. The woman speaking had sulked, her lover had fled away and sent a messenger telling that he does not understand why she was angry at him. She replies that sulking is just part of the play: making love (ma?antu) after a quarrel (opposing the lover's avances, etirko??u, flaring up like fire into which ghee/oil is poured) is special. Compare Sattasa? 522 in the translation by Peter Khoroche and me (Poems of Life and Love in Ancient India. H?la's Sattasa?, p. 115): ?After every quarrel, it's true/The pleasures of love taste new. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sun Feb 23 19:29:19 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 14 14:29:19 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8D0FEE4AEA054AD-14F4-14C25@webmail-vm002.sysops.aol.com> The following site presents an interesting viewpoint from a New Englander. http://www.brahmin.com/info/Our_Story I am sure it has interesting resonances for Indologists :-) Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: Allen Thrasher Cc: Jarrod Whitaker ; indology Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 5:55 am Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? The OED: Forms: ME?16 bragman, 15 bramane, 16?18 brachman(e, brachmin, 16 brackman, braman, bramen, bramine, braminy, 17?18 bramin, 17? brahmin, 18 brahman. Etymology: < Sanskrit br?hmana, < brahman praise, worship; some of the older English forms were derived from or influenced by the Greek spelling ????????? (plural), Latin brachm?ni, brachm?nes, and medieval Latin corruptions; the form Brahmin, a corruption of the Indian vernacular pronunciation, is still all but universal in popular use; during the 19th cent. Orientalists adopted the more correct Brahman, which (often written Br?hman or Br?hman) is employed by most writers on India. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanus1216 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 24 02:04:42 2014 From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com (Allen Thrasher) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 14 18:04:42 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1393207482.55173.YahooMailNeo@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Debabrata Chakrabarti says, "In fact, each and every place name was anglicized by the the British. For some years now the government is replacing the exact transliteration of place names." That place names and other Indian words were anglicized by the British is no doubt true, for every language is likely to modify foreign words when it takes it into itself.? But it does not follow that in every case they (1) took it into English directly from an Indo-Aryan or Dravidian language rather than from some other, such as Portuguese, Persian, or Arabic, which might already have made its own changes. Nor (2) does it mean that the British or speakers of other languages from outside the Subcontinent came in contact directly with the word as it might be in Sanskrit or some other highly standardized or regulated form of speech. The spelling might represent more closely than some might assume the actual spoken form for a place or concept as they encountered it in speech.? Moreover, the forms being insisted upon by the GOI or others may possibly in some cases be recent _changes_ by way of hypercorrection.? Individual cases have to be investigated. Allen On Saturday, February 22, 2014 11:09 PM, Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti wrote: Dear Sir, What I assume from the word ''Brahmin' is that it is purely an anglicized form of 'Brahman'. Whether it was Francocized is difficult to determine. 'Bragmen' may arise for listening to North Indian pronunciation/dialects, which emphasizes 'h' , and ?in? might arise for pronouncing cerebral ?n?. In fact, each and every place name was anglicized by the British. For some years now the government is replacing the exact transliteration of place names. Thus ?Burdwan? has become ?Bardhaman?, etc. ? all names ending in ?pur? were pronounced ??pore? by the British.?? Regards Debabrata Chakrabarti ?This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.? ? Anandamayi Ma ?Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.? - Paracelsus ________________________________ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 17:36:37 -0800 From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com To: whitakjl at wfu.edu; indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? No one seems to have addressed Jarrod's query whether the *in comes from Persian or Arabic.? Can anyone address what the possible words for brahmana are in these?? Also, Hobson-Jobson s.v. Brahmin cites early Portuguese examples with *en: in the lural Brahmenes (Camoes, 1572) and in the singular Bragmen (Acosta, 1578).? See the online H-J at http://tinyurl.com/mmodvxs Allen On Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:09 PM, Jarrod Whitaker wrote: Dear Colleagues: When does the word "B/brahmin" ("priest, priestly class") with a final "-in" begin to be used/appear? I have always assumed that it appeared with the colonial encounter and thus it was a Anglocized (perhaps Franco-cized?) way of representing the final short schwa sound of "brahman". Does it have an older history in Arabic/Mughal writing? It surely is not a final Sanskrit "-in" stem (I have never heard of a Brahmii priest), but perhaps it has a regional/dialect use somewhere in India... Silly question but frustrating nonetheless when trying to unpack the complex use of the term brahman and its various meanings to students and the fact that textbooks are not uniform in how they represent the term and its derivatives (B/braahmaan.a [and more rarely Braahman. with final retroflex "n," which is curious in and of itself], B/brahman, or, of course our current Brahmin....[throw into the mix lower case, sometimes italicized brahman from Upanishads and god Brahmaa and students think you are just messing with them]). Cheers JW Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. Associate Professor, South Asian Religions Zachary T. Smith Faculty Fellow Graduate Program Director Wake Forest University Department of Religion P.O. Box 7212 Winston-Salem, NC? 27109 whitakjl at wfu.edu p 336.758.4162 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info/ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr Mon Feb 24 04:01:11 2014 From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 14 09:31:11 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? In-Reply-To: <1393207482.55173.YahooMailNeo@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <530AC407.5040104@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Yes, a spelling ending in "in" could be a trace of French influence, as in the case of "Pattabiramin", (??????????? = pa??apir?ma?) (see: http://www.efeo.fr/biographies/notices/pattabiramin.htm) However, I cannot quote any French source for "brahmin" ... Going further, I remember a similar discussion, on the reasons for the presence of a final "n" [is it due to Portuguese influence?] in the words "Comorin" (Cape Comorin) and Tuticorin (name of a city), because there is no final "?" in Ka??iy?kumari (????????????) or T?ttukku?i (????????????) [Thoothukudi] but I don't find it inside the (Liverpool) INDOLOGY list archives (it must have been on some other mailing list [I hope it is not the beginning of Alzheimer disease ...] Coming back to the spelling "Brahmin", when V.S. Rajam mentionned the spellings found in Henriques' 16th cent. /Arte da Lingua Malabar/ (HOS 76, 2013), I thought it might also be useful to have a look at Antao de Proen?a's Tamil Portuguese Dictionary (A.D. 1679), since that book did not seem to be part of the sources consulted in the various messages. There are two entries on folio 31, which are relevant to the discussion ???????? [pi-?a-ma-ma-ta-ti]. Homicidio de bramane. ?????? [pi-?a-ma-?a-?a]. Bramane, quasi ?abio. I hope this negative evidence is useful Best wishes to all -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Pondicherry) On 24/02/2014 07:34, Allen Thrasher wrote: > Debabrata Chakrabarti says, "In fact, each and every place name was > anglicized by the the British. For some years now the government is > replacing the exact transliteration of place names." > That place names and other Indian words were anglicized by the British > is no doubt true, for every language is likely to modify foreign words > when it takes it into itself. But it does not follow that in every case > they (1) took it into English directly from an Indo-Aryan or Dravidian > language rather than from some other, such as Portuguese, Persian, or > Arabic, which might already have made its own changes. Nor (2) does it > mean that the British or speakers of other languages from outside the > Subcontinent came in contact directly with the word as it might be in > Sanskrit or some other highly standardized or regulated form of speech. > The spelling might represent more closely than some might assume the > actual spoken form for a place or concept as they encountered it in > speech. Moreover, the forms being insisted upon by the GOI or others > may possibly in some cases be recent _changes_ by way of > hypercorrection. Individual cases have to be investigated. > > Allen > > > On Saturday, February 22, 2014 11:09 PM, Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti > wrote: > > > Dear Sir, > What I assume from the word ''Brahmin' is that it is purely an > anglicized form of 'Brahman'. Whether it was Francocized is difficult to > determine. 'Bragmen' may arise for listening to North Indian > pronunciation/dialects, which emphasizes 'h' , and ?in? might arise for > pronouncing cerebral ?n?. > In fact, each and every place name was anglicized by the British. For > some years now the government is replacing the exact transliteration of > place names. Thus ?Burdwan? has become ?Bardhaman?, etc. ? all names > ending in ?pur? were pronounced ?pore? by the British. > Regards > Debabrata Chakrabarti > > > > ?This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how > you play it.? ? Anandamayi Ma > ?Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and > unbroken.? - Paracelsus > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 17:36:37 -0800 > From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com > To: whitakjl at wfu.edu; indology at list.indology.info > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? > > No one seems to have addressed Jarrod's query whether the *in comes from > Persian or Arabic. Can anyone address what the possible words for > brahmana are in these? > > > Also, Hobson-Jobson s.v. Brahmin cites early Portuguese examples with > *en: in the lural Brahmenes (Camoes, 1572) and in the singular Bragmen > (Acosta, 1578). See the online H-J at *http://tinyurl.com/mmodvxs* > > Allen > > > On Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:09 PM, Jarrod Whitaker > wrote: > Dear Colleagues: > When does the word "B/brahmin" ("priest, priestly class") with a final > "-in" begin to be used/appear? I have always assumed that it appeared > with the colonial encounter and thus it was a Anglocized (perhaps > Franco-cized?) way of representing the final short schwa sound of > "brahman". Does it have an older history in Arabic/Mughal writing? It > surely is not a final Sanskrit "-in" stem (I have never heard of a > Brahmii priest), but perhaps it has a regional/dialect use somewhere in > India... > > Silly question but frustrating nonetheless when trying to unpack the > complex use of the term brahman and its various meanings to students and > the fact that textbooks are not uniform in how they represent the term > and its derivatives (B/braahmaan.a [and more rarely Braahman. with final > retroflex "n," which is curious in and of itself], B/brahman, or, of > course our current Brahmin....[throw into the mix lower case, sometimes > italicized brahman from Upanishads and god Brahmaa and students think > you are just messing with them]). > > Cheers > JW > > Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. > Associate Professor, South Asian Religions > Zachary T. Smith Faculty Fellow > Graduate Program Director > > Wake Forest University > Department of Religion > P.O. Box 7212 > Winston-Salem, NC 27109 > whitakjl at wfu.edu > p 336.758.4162 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info/ > > > > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr Mon Feb 24 04:53:23 2014 From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 14 10:23:23 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? In-Reply-To: <530AC407.5040104@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <530AD043.5010400@univ-paris-diderot.fr> There is a mistake in my post. Read ???????????? = pa???pir?ma? Thanks to the corrector! -- jlc On 24/02/2014 09:31, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > Yes, > a spelling ending in "in" > could be a trace of French influence, > as in the case of "Pattabiramin", > (??????????? = pa??apir?ma?) > (see: > http://www.efeo.fr/biographies/notices/pattabiramin.htm) > > However, > I cannot quote any French source for "brahmin" ... > > Going further, > I remember a similar discussion, > on the reasons for the presence of a final "n" > [is it due to Portuguese influence?] > in the words "Comorin" (Cape Comorin) > and Tuticorin (name of a city), > because there is no final "?" > in Ka??iy?kumari (????????????) > or T?ttukku?i (????????????) [Thoothukudi] > but I don't find it inside the (Liverpool) INDOLOGY > list archives > (it must have been on some other mailing list > [I hope it is not the beginning of Alzheimer disease ...] > > Coming back to the spelling "Brahmin", > when V.S. Rajam mentionned the spellings found > in Henriques' 16th cent. /Arte da Lingua Malabar/ (HOS 76, 2013), > I thought it might also be useful to have a look > at Antao de Proen?a's Tamil Portuguese Dictionary (A.D. 1679), > since that book did not seem to be part of the sources consulted > in the various messages. > > There are two entries on folio 31, > which are relevant to the discussion > > ???????? [pi-?a-ma-ma-ta-ti]. Homicidio de bramane. > > ?????? [pi-?a-ma-?a-?a]. Bramane, quasi ?abio. > > I hope this negative evidence is useful > > Best wishes to all > > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Pondicherry) > > > > On 24/02/2014 07:34, Allen Thrasher wrote: >> Debabrata Chakrabarti says, "In fact, each and every place name was >> anglicized by the the British. For some years now the government is >> replacing the exact transliteration of place names." >> That place names and other Indian words were anglicized by the British >> is no doubt true, for every language is likely to modify foreign words >> when it takes it into itself. But it does not follow that in every case >> they (1) took it into English directly from an Indo-Aryan or Dravidian >> language rather than from some other, such as Portuguese, Persian, or >> Arabic, which might already have made its own changes. Nor (2) does it >> mean that the British or speakers of other languages from outside the >> Subcontinent came in contact directly with the word as it might be in >> Sanskrit or some other highly standardized or regulated form of speech. >> The spelling might represent more closely than some might assume the >> actual spoken form for a place or concept as they encountered it in >> speech. Moreover, the forms being insisted upon by the GOI or others >> may possibly in some cases be recent _changes_ by way of >> hypercorrection. Individual cases have to be investigated. >> >> Allen >> >> >> On Saturday, February 22, 2014 11:09 PM, Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti >> wrote: >> >> >> Dear Sir, >> What I assume from the word ''Brahmin' is that it is purely an >> anglicized form of 'Brahman'. Whether it was Francocized is difficult to >> determine. 'Bragmen' may arise for listening to North Indian >> pronunciation/dialects, which emphasizes 'h' , and ?in? might arise for >> pronouncing cerebral ?n?. >> In fact, each and every place name was anglicized by the British. For >> some years now the government is replacing the exact transliteration of >> place names. Thus ?Burdwan? has become ?Bardhaman?, etc. ? all names >> ending in ?pur? were pronounced ?pore? by the British. >> Regards >> Debabrata Chakrabarti >> >> >> >> ?This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how >> you play it.? ? Anandamayi Ma >> ?Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and >> unbroken.? - Paracelsus >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 17:36:37 -0800 >> From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com >> To: whitakjl at wfu.edu; indology at list.indology.info >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin? >> >> No one seems to have addressed Jarrod's query whether the *in comes from >> Persian or Arabic. Can anyone address what the possible words for >> brahmana are in these? >> >> >> Also, Hobson-Jobson s.v. Brahmin cites early Portuguese examples with >> *en: in the lural Brahmenes (Camoes, 1572) and in the singular Bragmen >> (Acosta, 1578). See the online H-J at *http://tinyurl.com/mmodvxs* >> >> Allen >> >> >> On Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:09 PM, Jarrod Whitaker >> wrote: >> Dear Colleagues: >> When does the word "B/brahmin" ("priest, priestly class") with a final >> "-in" begin to be used/appear? I have always assumed that it appeared >> with the colonial encounter and thus it was a Anglocized (perhaps >> Franco-cized?) way of representing the final short schwa sound of >> "brahman". Does it have an older history in Arabic/Mughal writing? It >> surely is not a final Sanskrit "-in" stem (I have never heard of a >> Brahmii priest), but perhaps it has a regional/dialect use somewhere in >> India... >> >> Silly question but frustrating nonetheless when trying to unpack the >> complex use of the term brahman and its various meanings to students and >> the fact that textbooks are not uniform in how they represent the term >> and its derivatives (B/braahmaan.a [and more rarely Braahman. with final >> retroflex "n," which is curious in and of itself], B/brahman, or, of >> course our current Brahmin....[throw into the mix lower case, sometimes >> italicized brahman from Upanishads and god Brahmaa and students think >> you are just messing with them]). >> >> Cheers >> JW >> >> Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor, South Asian Religions >> Zachary T. Smith Faculty Fellow >> Graduate Program Director >> >> Wake Forest University >> Department of Religion >> P.O. Box 7212 >> Winston-Salem, NC 27109 >> whitakjl at wfu.edu >> p 336.758.4162 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Mon Feb 24 08:11:45 2014 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 14 08:11:45 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 In-Reply-To: <8D0FEE35D360515-14F4-14B76@webmail-vm002.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Dr Palaniappan, As to your interpretation of ma?anta?aiyam as consisting of the adjectival participle ma?anta plus a?aiyam, how about sandhi? Furthermore, before you present what you think is a example of such a construction, you should look more carefully at it. You refer to the sequence pulakkum a?aiy?(m) from Ku?untokai 164, assuming that pulakkum is an adjectival participle. The relevant lines of the poem read: ta? perum pavvam a?a?kuka t??i ma?aiy?? ma?amayi? pulakkum a?aiy? maki?na?kiy?m ?yi?am e?i??. As you might have noticed Eva Wilden is silent about the construction pulakkum a?aiy?(m). Clearly she did not know what to do with it, as is shown by her translation: ?When they say we have become such (a?aiy?m) for the delightful man, that she of the house is vexed (pulakkum) in her inexperience, may the cool great ocean trouble them, friend.? I for one fail to understand the situation underlying this translation. Why would this speaker wish that the roaring sea drowns the loud gossip about her affair with a married man? If that is because the gossip is a torture to her, this does not become clear from Wilden's translation. Apart from that, on closer consideration pulakkum is not a participle at all, but a finite verb. Wilden failed to recognize the Sandhi here. When two m's clash, as in anaiy?m maki?na?kiy?m one of them may be dropped. This has also happened in the sequence pulakkum manaiy?m. The passages means: ?if, as they say, I have indeed become his ?housewife?, I in my turn will suffer from a housewife's foolishness as well (have to live with my "husband's"infidelities)?, or something like it. We have strayed far from Ku?untokai 106. I think we should call it a day. H Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: zondag 23 februari 2014 20:19 To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Sorry, in the post below, 'dock rock' should really be 'dark rock'. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa To: H.J.H.Tieken ; indology Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Dr. Tieken, In Pu?am 191, the question is how come the poet has no gray hair in spite of being many years old. The answer should really address the past. It is because of the past good behavior of his family members and servants that he does not have gray hair today. That is why he uses the past forms in m??t-, nirampi-, and ka??-. But the past behavior of people involved continues in the present too. This is what the poet chose to show in the case of the king k?kkum. Grammatically, the servants were of the same nature the poet has intended all these years. ma?anta?aiyam means literally 'we are of the same nature (the hero) united.' That we are talking about an adjectival participial construction can be seen in pulakkum a?aiy?m in Ku?untokai 164.5-6. That is why Eva is right. Coming to the roots of i??i looking like a waterfall, I have attached a picture showing a miniature version of what Kapilar might have seen. The Ficus variety is possibly different but the behavior of the roots seen here clearly show what we are talking about. If one focuses on the roots and rock, they just look like a white waterfall on a dock rock. The roots of the tree are behaving just like a creeper. They attach themselves to the rock and spread. The roots grab the rock surface and also get into any crevices and ridges. That is why they follow the horizontal line between stones in the photo I sent yesterday. With such a creeper-like behavior, I do not know how anybody steeped in Tamil culture can think of the roots of i??i with the hero. Even a lay Tamil just listening to film songs will associate a creeper with a female as in the film song below. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaxGu--YQpQ That C?macuntara??r, in spite of his own description of i??i as attaching and spreading which is clearly the nature of creepers, associated the roots with the hero shows the cascading (:-)) consequences of interpreting ney as ghee. If a big tree has to survive on a rock, one can only imagine how strongly the roots should be attached to the rock. That is the whole point Kapilar is making. The heroine has already made love to the hero and has united in love with him like the roots of i??i attached to the rock. Kapilar's knowledge of the mountainous landscape and his skill in weaving this multi-layerd picture are simply amazing! In my opinion, Eva got the essence of the poem right, Comacuntara??r missed the mark. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. > To: palaniappa >; indology > Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 5:42 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Dr Palaniappan, Thank you for the other instances of the construction. Especially Pu?an????u 191, line 4 is interesting: y?? ka??a?aiyar e?? il?aiyar, literally, ?My kum?ras see what I see? (in Hart's translation: ?My servants do what I wish?). Here there is a change of subject between the respective clauses: I see, they (act) like that?. This offers an explanation for t?m in t?m ma?anta?aiyam: ?To enjoy a more intense love-making they (t?m) first reject the lover. We women operate in that way.? By the way, I fail to see why ma?anta?aiyam should be analyzed as ma?anta (an adjectival participle) plus a?aiyam, as suggested by Eva Wilden. If you don't mind, I stick to my interpretation of the phrase ?'receiving' a person like fire into which ghee/oil is poured?. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 22 februari 2014 23:34 To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Herman, ma?anta?aiyam < ma?anta + a?aiyam Compare y?? ka??a?aiyar in Pu?. 191.4 c?r nacainta?aiy?y in Ku?. 52.2 The meaning of etirko? is the opposite of what you have indicated. See Tamil Lexicon entry below. ?????????(??)-??? etir-ko?- , v. tr. < ?????? +. [T. edurkonu.] 1. To advance or go towards a guest or great person to meet, welcome and receive him; ?????????. ?????? ????????????????? (?????. 36). 2. To accept; ????????????????. ????? ???????????? (??. ??. 9, 32). The scenario you envisage will not apply here. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. > To: indology > Sent: Sat, Feb 22, 2014 2:18 pm Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 I had another look at Ku?untokai 106, discussed earlier by Palaniappan and Hart: ? t?ti ?e?cattuk kil?avi namvayi? vanta??u v??i t??i n?mu neypey t?yi? etirko??u t?m(/t??/ta?) ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukan t?t?. As I see it, the real problem of the poem consists of the construction of two verbal participles, or absolutives, etirko??u and ma?antu, followed by a?aiyam ?we are like that?. The construction is rare but I found one other instance in Na??i?ai 179, lines 6-7 (v??kuva?al? vimmi nerunalum a?aiyal?) about a spoilt girl who refuses to drink the sweet milk her mother gave her, sobbing (vimmi, a verbal participle) and clamouring for more extravagant sweets (v??kuva?al?, a participial noun). Only yesterday the girl behaved like that (a?aiyal?) but just now she ran away with a unknown ? and poor ? fellow. No more sweet milk for her! If this is how the construction works, the situation underlying our Ku?untokai poems may be described in the following way. The woman speaking had sulked, her lover had fled away and sent a messenger telling that he does not understand why she was angry at him. She replies that sulking is just part of the play: making love (ma?antu) after a quarrel (opposing the lover's avances, etirko??u, flaring up like fire into which ghee/oil is poured) is special. Compare Sattasa? 522 in the translation by Peter Khoroche and me (Poems of Life and Love in Ancient India. H?la's Sattasa?, p. 115): ?After every quarrel, it's true/The pleasures of love taste new. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi Mon Feb 24 10:58:37 2014 From: klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 14 12:58:37 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Message-ID: <43D4E912-3F7C-448C-8ED9-E364EA674EBB@helsinki.fi> Dear all, to return to the original question. As Allen already mentioned, one must always check Hobson-Jobson for questions like this, but in this particular case it offers surprisingly little. Better is Dalgado's Gloss?rio Luso-Asi?tico ? there we find some early i-forms: Marco Polo's Bramini (in another version Abraiaman referring to the false etymology deriving brahman from Abraham), Portuguese bramines 1502, Italian Bramini 1582 and French Bramins 1676 (Tavernier). In French we also meet the funny shortening brame. I cannot say, why i came. Originally the word was introduced in the West by Megasthenes in the early 3rd century BCE as Greek Brachmanes and with the Alexander Legend it became well-known part of European literary conception of India. In Latin it also got the form Bragmanae. Beside Bramans/Bramins/Brahmans/Brahmins these were still often used in the 16th and 17th centuries. Best, Klaus Klaus Karttunen South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au Tue Feb 25 01:50:20 2014 From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 14 01:50:20 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Joy of Sanskrit' electronic textbook now available Message-ID: <9fefdc34a3aa437bb2fcfaa54e7a957f@HKXPR06MB182.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com> Dear Colleagues I am delighted to announce that ANU Press has published The Joy of Sanskrit: A First-Year Syllabus for Tertiary Students, written with my colleague Grazia Scotellaro. http://press.anu.edu.au/titles/anu-etext/the-joy-of-sanskrit/ This is ANU ePress's first ever electronic textbook, and (I imagine) the world's first electronic Sanskrit textbook. It is freely avaible in the public domain, and runs on Mac, iPads, iPhones and Android systems. (Windows version is still to come). Yours McComas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Tue Feb 25 02:35:06 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 14 21:35:06 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Message-ID: <8D0FFE9537D7026-C18-1F800@webmail-m282.sysops.aol.com> Dear Dr. Tieken, In Ku?untokai 106, there is no problem with sandhi in ma?anta + a?aiyam > ma?anta?aiyam. See V. S. Rajam's grammar, p. 73-74. Rajam gives the example arunta+?m?nta > arunt?m?nta (Pu?am 101.9) In Ku?untokai 164, there is no need for Eva to explain pulakkum a?aiy? (m), since from the publisher C?min?taiyar onwards, everybody reads it as pulakkum + a?aiy?m. Having pulakkum as a finite verb as you suggested does not make sense in terms of grammar and poetic convention. In that case, 'ta? perum pavvam a?a?kuka t??i' will hang there by itself separated from the conditional 'ma?aiy?m maki?na?ku y?m ?yi?am e?i??' by the sentence 'ma?aiy?? ma?amaiyi? pulakkum'. Moreover, the other woman is never referred to as ma?aiy?? by others in the entire Classical Tamil corpus. Nor does she ever calls herself ma?aiyam or ma?aiy?m in other poems where she speaks. That is why, as shown in the attachment, C?min?taiyar's manuscripts had pulakku ma?aiy? but he published the text with split sandhi as pulakkum a?aiy?. All other commentators accepted that. All commentators interpreted pulakkum a?aiy?m as an adjectival participle too. Hope this helps. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: palaniappa ; indology Sent: Mon, Feb 24, 2014 2:12 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Dr Palaniappan, As to your interpretation ofma?anta?aiyam as consisting of the adjectival participle ma?anta plusa?aiyam, how about sandhi? Furthermore, before you present what you think is a example of such a construction, you should look more carefully at it. You refer to the sequencepulakkum a?aiy?(m) from Ku?untokai 164, assuming that pulakkum is an adjectival participle. The relevant lines of the poem read: ta? perum pavvam a?a?kuka t??i ma?aiy?? ma?amayi? pulakkum a?aiy? maki?na?kiy?m ?yi?am e?i??. As you might have noticed Eva Wilden is silent about the constructionpulakkum a?aiy?(m). Clearly she did not know what to do with it, as is shown by her translation: ?When they say we have become such (a?aiy?m) for the delightful man, that she of the house is vexed (pulakkum) in her inexperience, may the cool great ocean trouble them, friend.? I for one fail to understand the situation underlying this translation. Why would this speaker wish that the roaring sea drowns the loud gossip about her affair with a married man? If that is because the gossip is a torture to her, this does not become clear from Wilden's translation. Apart from that, on closer considerationpulakkum is not a participle at all, but a finite verb. Wilden failed to recognize the Sandhi here. When twom's clash, as in anaiy?m maki?na?kiy?m one of them may be dropped. This has also happened in the sequencepulakkum manaiy?m. The passages means: ?if, as they say, I have indeed become his ?housewife?, I in my turn will suffer from a housewife's foolishness as well (have to live with my "husband's"infidelities)?, or something like it. We have strayed far from Ku?untokai 106. I think we should call it a day. H Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: zondag 23 februari 2014 20:19 To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Sorry, in the post below, 'dock rock' should really be 'dark rock'. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa To: H.J.H.Tieken ; indology Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Dr. Tieken, In Pu?am 191, the question is how come the poet has no gray hair in spite of being many years old. The answer should really address the past. It is because of the past good behavior of his family members and servants that he does not have gray hair today. That is why he uses the past forms in m??t-, nirampi-, and ka??-. But the past behavior of people involved continues in the present too. This is what the poet chose to show in the case of the kingk?kkum. Grammatically, the servants were of the same nature the poet has intended all these years. ma?anta?aiyam means literally 'we are of the same nature (the hero) united.' That we are talking about an adjectival participial construction can be seen inpulakkum a?aiy?m in Ku?untokai 164.5-6. That is why Eva is right. Coming to the roots of i??i looking like a waterfall, I have attached a picture showing a miniature version of what Kapilar might have seen. The Ficus variety is possibly different but the behavior of the roots seen here clearly show what we are talking about. If one focuses on the roots and rock, they just look like a white waterfall on a dock rock. The roots of the tree are behaving just like a creeper. They attach themselves to the rock and spread. The roots grab the rock surface and also get into any crevices and ridges. That is why they follow the horizontal line between stones in the photo I sent yesterday. With such a creeper-like behavior, I do not know how anybody steeped in Tamil culture can think of the roots of i??i with the hero. Even a lay Tamil just listening to film songs will associate a creeper with a female as in the film song below. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaxGu--YQpQ That C?macuntara??r, in spite of his own description ofi??i as attaching and spreading which is clearly the nature of creepers, associated the roots with the hero shows the cascading (:-)) consequences of interpretingney as ghee. If a big tree has to survive on a rock, one can only imagine how strongly the roots should be attached to the rock. That is the whole point Kapilar is making. The heroine has already made love to the hero and has united in love with him like the roots of i??i attached to the rock. Kapilar's knowledge of the mountainous landscape and his skill in weaving this multi-layerd picture are simply amazing! In my opinion, Eva got the essence of the poem right, Comacuntara??r missed the mark. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: palaniappa ; indology Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 5:42 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Dr Palaniappan, Thank you for the other instances of the construction. Especially Pu?an????u 191, line 4 is interesting:y?? ka??a?aiyar e?? il?aiyar, literally, ?My kum?ras see what I see? (in Hart's translation: ?My servants do what I wish?). Here there is a change of subject between the respective clauses:I see, they (act) like that?. This offers an explanation for t?m int?m ma?anta?aiyam: ?To enjoy a more intense love-making they (t?m) first reject the lover.We women operate in that way.? By the way, I fail to see whyma?anta?aiyam should be analyzed as ma?anta (an adjectival participle) plus a?aiyam, as suggested by Eva Wilden. If you don't mind, I stick to my interpretation of the phrase ?'receiving' a person like fire into which ghee/oil is poured?. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van:palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 22 februari 2014 23:34 To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Herman, ma?anta?aiyam < ma?anta + a?aiyam Compare y?? ka??a?aiyarin Pu?. 191.4 c?r nacainta?aiy?yinKu?. 52.2 The meaning ofetirko? is the opposite of what you have indicated. See Tamil Lexicon entry below. ?????????(??)-??? etir-ko?- , v. tr. < ?????? +. [T. edurkonu.] 1. To advance or go towards a guest or great person to meet, welcome and receive him; ?????????. ?????? ????????????????? (?????. 36). 2. To accept; ????????????????. ????? ???????????? (??. ??. 9, 32). The scenario you envisage will not apply here. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: indology Sent: Sat, Feb 22, 2014 2:18 pm Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 I had another look atKu?untokai 106, discussed earlier by Palaniappan and Hart: ? t?ti ?e?cattuk kil?avi namvayi? vanta??u v??i t??i n?mu neypey t?yi? etirko??u t?m(/t??/ta?) ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukan t?t?. As I see it, the real problem of the poem consists of the construction of two verbal participles, or absolutives,etirko??u and ma?antu, followed by a?aiyam ?we are like that?. The construction is rare but I found one other instance inNa??i?ai 179, lines 6-7 (v??kuva?al? vimmi nerunalum a?aiyal?) about a spoilt girl who refuses to drink the sweet milk her mother gave her, sobbing (vimmi, a verbal participle) and clamouring for more extravagant sweets (v??kuva?al?, a participial noun). Only yesterday the girl behaved like that (a?aiyal?) but just now she ran away with a unknown ? and poor ? fellow. No more sweet milk for her! If this is how the construction works, the situation underlying ourKu?untokai poems may be described in the following way. The woman speaking had sulked, her lover had fled away and sent a messenger telling that he does not understand why she was angry at him. She replies that sulking is just part of the play: making love (ma?antu) after a quarrel (opposing the lover's avances, etirko??u, flaring up like fire into which ghee/oil is poured) is special. Compare Sattasa? 522 in the translation by Peter Khoroche and me (Poems of Life and Love in Ancient India. H?la's Sattasa?, p. 115): ?After every quarrel, it's true/The pleasures of love taste new. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Kuruntokai164PalmLeafandPaper2Pages.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 845408 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Feb 25 03:39:49 2014 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 14 22:39:49 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CFP - AAR Yogacara Studies Group In-Reply-To: <9fefdc34a3aa437bb2fcfaa54e7a957f@HKXPR06MB182.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <4F73D4C2BD5B4783AB88E5A4AEC572D1@Dan> Dear Colleagues, Apologies for cross-posting. A gentle reminder: The deadline for submissions for this year's annual meeting of the American Academy of Religion in San Diego is Monday, March 3, 2014, 5:00 pm EST. That is only a week away. The Program Administration Proposal, Evaluation, Review, and Submission (PAPERS) System, the AAR's online proposal submission system, is open for your proposal! The AAR Meeting will be held November 22-25, 2014. Please don't wait until the 11th hour to submit your proposals. The Yog?c?ra Buddhism Group invites proposals on the following: Call for Papers: In light of the success and excitement that our text-discussion format has received in recent years, the following candidates for the upcoming AAR were proposed: ? The ?Tattv?rtha? chapter of the Bodhisattvabh?mi ? A chapter of the Sa?dhinirmocana S?tra, e.g., Param?rthasamudgata ? A short text or significant passage from any text related to Yog?c?ra Panel and Paper topics: ? Tantric Appropriations of Yog?c?ra (for a possible cosponsored session with the Tantric Studies Group) ? The body in Yog?c?ra (can include medicine) ? Intersubjectivity ? Yog?c?ra and cognitive science ? Yog?c?ra and phenomenology ? Modern Yog?c?ra revivals Additional topics welcome. View the full Call for Papers in a browsable PDF. Look at the Calls for specific Program Units. General Questions about the Call for Papers? Read the General Call Instructions. Questions about the PAPERS system? Read the PAPERS Instruction Manual. Ready to submit your proposal? Go to the My Proposals page to get started! best wishes, Dan Lusthaus John Powers Co-chairs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Tue Feb 25 08:51:18 2014 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 14 08:51:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 In-Reply-To: <8D0FFE9537D7026-C18-1F800@webmail-m282.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Dr Palaniappan, Even if a final a is sometimes elided, it is not an a which is elided in arunt?m?nta quoted by you. It is an i here, in the verbal participle arunti. For many days the bard speaking in the poem enjoyed the hospitality of the king. In Hart's translation: ?Not for one day did we go to him, not for two days did we go to him,/ but though we brought many along with us and stayed for many days,/ he seemed as eager to welcome us as he was on the first day! ...? The bard concluded: arunt?m?nta ne?cam varunta v????, ?(My heart is, that is) I am satisfied, having eaten my fill. I can't eat any more!? And now I stop. I feel I am up against Medusa. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: dinsdag 25 februari 2014 3:35 To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Dr. Tieken, In Ku?untokai 106, there is no problem with sandhi in ma?anta + a?aiyam > ma?anta?aiyam. See V. S. Rajam's grammar, p. 73-74. Rajam gives the example arunta+?m?nta > arunt?m?nta (Pu?am 101.9) In Ku?untokai 164, there is no need for Eva to explain pulakkum a?aiy? (m), since from the publisher C?min?taiyar onwards, everybody reads it as pulakkum + a?aiy?m. Having pulakkum as a finite verb as you suggested does not make sense in terms of grammar and poetic convention. In that case, 'ta? perum pavvam a?a?kuka t??i' will hang there by itself separated from the conditional 'ma?aiy?m maki?na?ku y?m ?yi?am e?i??' by the sentence 'ma?aiy?? ma?amaiyi? pulakkum'. Moreover, the other woman is never referred to as ma?aiy?? by others in the entire Classical Tamil corpus. Nor does she ever calls herself ma?aiyam or ma?aiy?m in other poems where she speaks. That is why, as shown in the attachment, C?min?taiyar's manuscripts had pulakku ma?aiy? but he published the text with split sandhi as pulakkum a?aiy?. All other commentators accepted that. All commentators interpreted pulakkum a?aiy?m as an adjectival participle too. Hope this helps. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: palaniappa ; indology Sent: Mon, Feb 24, 2014 2:12 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Dr Palaniappan, As to your interpretation of ma?anta?aiyam as consisting of the adjectival participle ma?anta plus a?aiyam, how about sandhi? Furthermore, before you present what you think is a example of such a construction, you should look more carefully at it. You refer to the sequence pulakkum a?aiy?(m) from Ku?untokai 164, assuming that pulakkum is an adjectival participle. The relevant lines of the poem read: ta? perum pavvam a?a?kuka t??i ma?aiy?? ma?amayi? pulakkum a?aiy? maki?na?kiy?m ?yi?am e?i??. As you might have noticed Eva Wilden is silent about the construction pulakkum a?aiy?(m). Clearly she did not know what to do with it, as is shown by her translation: ?When they say we have become such (a?aiy?m) for the delightful man, that she of the house is vexed (pulakkum) in her inexperience, may the cool great ocean trouble them, friend.? I for one fail to understand the situation underlying this translation. Why would this speaker wish that the roaring sea drowns the loud gossip about her affair with a married man? If that is because the gossip is a torture to her, this does not become clear from Wilden's translation. Apart from that, on closer consideration pulakkum is not a participle at all, but a finite verb. Wilden failed to recognize the Sandhi here. When two m's clash, as in anaiy?m maki?na?kiy?m one of them may be dropped. This has also happened in the sequence pulakkum manaiy?m. The passages means: ?if, as they say, I have indeed become his ?housewife?, I in my turn will suffer from a housewife's foolishness as well (have to live with my "husband's"infidelities)?, or something like it. We have strayed far from Ku?untokai 106. I think we should call it a day. H Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: zondag 23 februari 2014 20:19 To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Sorry, in the post below, 'dock rock' should really be 'dark rock'. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa > To: H.J.H.Tieken >; indology > Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Dr. Tieken, In Pu?am 191, the question is how come the poet has no gray hair in spite of being many years old. The answer should really address the past. It is because of the past good behavior of his family members and servants that he does not have gray hair today. That is why he uses the past forms in m??t-, nirampi-, and ka??-. But the past behavior of people involved continues in the present too. This is what the poet chose to show in the case of the king k?kkum. Grammatically, the servants were of the same nature the poet has intended all these years. ma?anta?aiyam means literally 'we are of the same nature (the hero) united.' That we are talking about an adjectival participial construction can be seen in pulakkum a?aiy?m in Ku?untokai 164.5-6. That is why Eva is right. Coming to the roots of i??i looking like a waterfall, I have attached a picture showing a miniature version of what Kapilar might have seen. The Ficus variety is possibly different but the behavior of the roots seen here clearly show what we are talking about. If one focuses on the roots and rock, they just look like a white waterfall on a dock rock. The roots of the tree are behaving just like a creeper. They attach themselves to the rock and spread. The roots grab the rock surface and also get into any crevices and ridges. That is why they follow the horizontal line between stones in the photo I sent yesterday. With such a creeper-like behavior, I do not know how anybody steeped in Tamil culture can think of the roots of i??i with the hero. Even a lay Tamil just listening to film songs will associate a creeper with a female as in the film song below. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaxGu--YQpQ That C?macuntara??r, in spite of his own description of i??i as attaching and spreading which is clearly the nature of creepers, associated the roots with the hero shows the cascading (:-)) consequences of interpreting ney as ghee. If a big tree has to survive on a rock, one can only imagine how strongly the roots should be attached to the rock. That is the whole point Kapilar is making. The heroine has already made love to the hero and has united in love with him like the roots of i??i attached to the rock. Kapilar's knowledge of the mountainous landscape and his skill in weaving this multi-layerd picture are simply amazing! In my opinion, Eva got the essence of the poem right, Comacuntara??r missed the mark. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. > To: palaniappa >; indology > Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 5:42 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Dr Palaniappan, Thank you for the other instances of the construction. Especially Pu?an????u 191, line 4 is interesting: y?? ka??a?aiyar e?? il?aiyar, literally, ?My kum?ras see what I see? (in Hart's translation: ?My servants do what I wish?). Here there is a change of subject between the respective clauses: I see, they (act) like that?. This offers an explanation for t?m in t?m ma?anta?aiyam: ?To enjoy a more intense love-making they (t?m) first reject the lover. We women operate in that way.? By the way, I fail to see why ma?anta?aiyam should be analyzed as ma?anta (an adjectival participle) plus a?aiyam, as suggested by Eva Wilden. If you don't mind, I stick to my interpretation of the phrase ?'receiving' a person like fire into which ghee/oil is poured?. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 22 februari 2014 23:34 To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 Dear Herman, ma?anta?aiyam < ma?anta + a?aiyam Compare y?? ka??a?aiyar in Pu?. 191.4 c?r nacainta?aiy?y in Ku?. 52.2 The meaning of etirko? is the opposite of what you have indicated. See Tamil Lexicon entry below. ?????????(??)-??? etir-ko?- , v. tr. < ?????? +. [T. edurkonu.] 1. To advance or go towards a guest or great person to meet, welcome and receive him; ?????????. ?????? ????????????????? (?????. 36). 2. To accept; ????????????????. ????? ???????????? (??. ??. 9, 32). The scenario you envisage will not apply here. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. > To: indology > Sent: Sat, Feb 22, 2014 2:18 pm Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 I had another look at Ku?untokai 106, discussed earlier by Palaniappan and Hart: ? t?ti ?e?cattuk kil?avi namvayi? vanta??u v??i t??i n?mu neypey t?yi? etirko??u t?m(/t??/ta?) ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukan t?t?. As I see it, the real problem of the poem consists of the construction of two verbal participles, or absolutives, etirko??u and ma?antu, followed by a?aiyam ?we are like that?. The construction is rare but I found one other instance in Na??i?ai 179, lines 6-7 (v??kuva?al? vimmi nerunalum a?aiyal?) about a spoilt girl who refuses to drink the sweet milk her mother gave her, sobbing (vimmi, a verbal participle) and clamouring for more extravagant sweets (v??kuva?al?, a participial noun). Only yesterday the girl behaved like that (a?aiyal?) but just now she ran away with a unknown ? and poor ? fellow. No more sweet milk for her! If this is how the construction works, the situation underlying our Ku?untokai poems may be described in the following way. The woman speaking had sulked, her lover had fled away and sent a messenger telling that he does not understand why she was angry at him. She replies that sulking is just part of the play: making love (ma?antu) after a quarrel (opposing the lover's avances, etirko??u, flaring up like fire into which ghee/oil is poured) is special. Compare Sattasa? 522 in the translation by Peter Khoroche and me (Poems of Life and Love in Ancient India. H?la's Sattasa?, p. 115): ?After every quarrel, it's true/The pleasures of love taste new. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Tue Feb 25 18:28:21 2014 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 14 10:28:21 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <08A93284-BC8C-4A3C-BA65-AE5E848349E2@earthlink.net> Well ? I?ve been staying away from this very nice discussion only fearing that my participation here also would be equated with Medusa?s curse. However, I?m stepping in just to share my thoughts about a few things. 1. The translation of the Purananuru poem #101 quoted here, especially the translation of the last two lines, sounds a bit odd. ///arunt?m?nta ne?cam varunta v????; ?(My heart is, that is) I am satisfied, having eaten my fill. I can?t eat any more!? /// 2. I stand by my grammatical analysis of arunt?m?nta < arunta + ?m?(r)nta. Even the traditional commentators (such as U.V.S and Auvai D. Pillai) did not interpret the phrase arunt?m?nta as arunti + ?m?nta. 3. One does not have to accept my grammatical analysis, but one could study the whole poem in the context of its theme and situation such as ti?ai and tu?ai. 3a.The theme is 'praising the donor (p????)' and the context is 'asking for a gift (paricil ka??nilai).' In that ka??nilai (begging/wanting situation) a bard asking for gifts would never say that he has had his fill). 4. The essence of the phrase varunta v???? which follows arunt?m?nta ne?cam [ne?cam here is an address form to the bard?s heart] seems to have been neglected in the translation. 4a. The phrase varunta v???? does not mean ?I can?t eat more.? It means ?do not worry/despair.? ++++++++++++ Translation is not an easy task, especially if it?s from totally different languages such as from Tamil to English. Translators have to make a lot of sacrifices and negotiate between the concerned languages. I understood this gimmick when I helped A.K.Ramanujan for his translation work (Poems of Love and War) and David Shulman when he translated a section of the Tevaram [http://www.amazon.com/Songs-Harsh-Devotee-Cuntaramurttinayanar-Pennsylvania/dp/0936115076)]. In my view, translations are wonderful but they are just gateways to access the original texts with no guarantee of 100% accuracy. ++++++++++++ Regards, Rajam On Feb 25, 2014, at 12:51 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote: > Dr Palaniappan, > > Even if a final a is sometimes elided, it is not an a which is elided in arunt?m?ntaquoted by you. It is an i here, in the verbal participle arunti. For many days the bard speaking in the poem enjoyed the hospitality of the king. In Hart's translation: ?Not for one day did we go to him, not for two days did we go to him,/ but though we brought many along with us and stayed for many days,/ he seemed as eager to welcome us as he was on the first day! ...? The bard concluded: > > arunt?m?nta ne?cam > varunta v????, > > ?(My heart is, that is) I am satisfied, having eaten my fill. I can't eat any more!? > > And now I stop. I feel I am up against Medusa. > > Herman > > Herman Tieken > University of Leiden > The Netherlands > website: hermantieken.com > Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] > Verzonden: dinsdag 25 februari 2014 3:35 > To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info > Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 > > Dear Dr. Tieken, > > In Ku?untokai 106, there is no problem with sandhi in ma?anta + a?aiyam > ma?anta?aiyam. See V. S. Rajam's grammar, p. 73-74. Rajam gives the example arunta+?m?nta > arunt?m?nta (Pu?am 101.9) > > In Ku?untokai 164, there is no need for Eva to explain pulakkum a?aiy? (m), since from the publisher C?min?taiyar onwards, everybody reads it as pulakkum + a?aiy?m. Having pulakkum as a finite verb as you suggested does not make sense in terms of grammar and poetic convention. In that case, 'ta? perum pavvam a?a?kuka t??i' will hang there by itself separated from the conditional 'ma?aiy?m maki?na?ku y?m ?yi?am e?i??' by the sentence 'ma?aiy?? ma?amaiyi? pulakkum'. Moreover, the other woman is never referred to as ma?aiy?? by others in the entire Classical Tamil corpus. Nor does she ever calls herself ma?aiyam or ma?aiy?m in other poems where she speaks. That is why, as shown in the attachment, C?min?taiyar's manuscripts had pulakku ma?aiy? but he published the text with split sandhi as pulakkum a?aiy?. All other commentators accepted that. All commentators interpreted pulakkum a?aiy?m as an adjectival participle too. > > Hope this helps. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tieken, H.J.H. > To: palaniappa ; indology > Sent: Mon, Feb 24, 2014 2:12 am > Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 > > Dear Dr Palaniappan, > > As to your interpretation of ma?anta?aiyam as consisting of the adjectival participlema?anta plus a?aiyam, how about sandhi? > Furthermore, before you present what you think is a example of such a construction, you should look more carefully at it. You refer to the sequence pulakkum a?aiy?(m)from Ku?untokai 164, assuming that pulakkum is an adjectival participle. The relevant lines of the poem read: > > ta? perum pavvam a?a?kuka t??i > ma?aiy?? ma?amayi? pulakkum > a?aiy? maki?na?kiy?m ?yi?am e?i??. > > As you might have noticed Eva Wilden is silent about the construction pulakkum a?aiy?(m). Clearly she did not know what to do with it, as is shown by her translation: > > ?When they say we have become such (a?aiy?m) for the delightful man, > that she of the house is vexed (pulakkum) in her inexperience, > may the cool great ocean trouble them, friend.? > > I for one fail to understand the situation underlying this translation. Why would this speaker wish that the roaring sea drowns the loud gossip about her affair with a married man? If that is because the gossip is a torture to her, this does not become clear from Wilden's translation. Apart from that, on closer consideration pulakkum is not a participle at all, but a finite verb. Wilden failed to recognize the Sandhi here. When two m's clash, as in anaiy?m maki?na?kiy?m one of them may be dropped. This has also happened in the sequence pulakkum manaiy?m. The passages means: ?if, as they say, I have indeed become his ?housewife?, I in my turn will suffer from a housewife's foolishness as well (have to live with my "husband's"infidelities)?, or something like it. > > We have strayed far from Ku?untokai 106. I think we should call it a day. > > H > > Herman Tieken > University of Leiden > The Netherlands > website: hermantieken.com > Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] > Verzonden: zondag 23 februari 2014 20:19 > To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info > Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 > > Sorry, in the post below, 'dock rock' should really be 'dark rock'. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: palaniappa > To: H.J.H.Tieken ; indology > Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 1:13 pm > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 > > Dear Dr. Tieken, > > In Pu?am 191, the question is how come the poet has no gray hair in spite of being many years old. The answer should really address the past. It is because of the past good behavior of his family members and servants that he does not have gray hair today. That is why he uses the past forms inm??t-, nirampi-, and ka??-. But the past behavior of people involved continues in the present too. This is what the poet chose to show in the case of the king k?kkum. Grammatically, the servants were of the same nature the poet has intended all these years. > > ma?anta?aiyam means literally 'we are of the same nature (the hero) united.' That we are talking about an adjectival participial construction can be seen in pulakkum a?aiy?m in Ku?untokai 164.5-6. That is why Eva is right. > > Coming to the roots of i??i looking like a waterfall, I have attached a picture showing a miniature version of what Kapilar might have seen. The Ficus variety is possibly different but the behavior of the roots seen here clearly show what we are talking about. If one focuses on the roots and rock, they just look like a white waterfall on a dock rock. The roots of the tree are behaving just like a creeper. They attach themselves to the rock and spread. The roots grab the rock surface and also get into any crevices and ridges. That is why they follow the horizontal line between stones in the photo I sent yesterday. With such a creeper-like behavior, I do not know how anybody steeped in Tamil culture can think of the roots of i??i with the hero. Even a lay Tamil just listening to film songs will associate a creeper with a female as in the film song below. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaxGu--YQpQ > That C?macuntara??r, in spite of his own description of i??i as attaching and spreading which is clearly the nature of creepers, associated the roots with the hero shows the cascading (:-)) consequences of interpreting ney as ghee. > > If a big tree has to survive on a rock, one can only imagine how strongly the roots should be attached to the rock. That is the whole point Kapilar is making. The heroine has already made love to the hero and has united in love with him like the roots of i??i attached to the rock. > > Kapilar's knowledge of the mountainous landscape and his skill in weaving this multi-layerd picture are simply amazing! In my opinion, Eva got the essence of the poem right, Comacuntara??r missed the mark. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tieken, H.J.H. > To: palaniappa ; indology > Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 5:42 am > Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 > > Dear Dr Palaniappan, > Thank you for the other instances of the construction. Especially Pu?an????u 191, line 4 is interesting: y?? ka??a?aiyar e?? il?aiyar, literally, ?My kum?ras see what I see? (in Hart's translation: ?My servants do what I wish?). Here there is a change of subject between the respective clauses: I see, they (act) like that?. This offers an explanation for t?m in t?m ma?anta?aiyam: ?To enjoy a more intense love-making they (t?m) first reject the lover. We women operate in that way.? > By the way, I fail to see why ma?anta?aiyam should be analyzed as ma?anta (an adjectival participle) plus a?aiyam, as suggested by Eva Wilden. > If you don't mind, I stick to my interpretation of the phrase ?'receiving' a person like fire into which ghee/oil is poured?. > Herman > > > Herman Tieken > University of Leiden > The Netherlands > website: hermantieken.com > Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] > Verzonden: zaterdag 22 februari 2014 23:34 > To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info > Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 > > Dear Herman, > > ma?anta?aiyam < ma?anta + a?aiyam > > Compare > y?? ka??a?aiyar in > Pu?. 191.4 > c?r nacainta?aiy?y in > Ku?. 52.2 > > The meaning of etirko? is the opposite of what you have indicated. See Tamil Lexicon entry below. > > ?????????(??)-??? etir-ko?- > , v. tr. < ?????? +. [T. edurkonu.] 1. To advance or go towards a guest or great person to meet, welcome and receive him; ?????????. ?????? ????????????????? (?????. 36). 2. To accept; ????????????????. ????? ???????????? (??. ??. 9, 32). > > The scenario you envisage will not apply here. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tieken, H.J.H. > To: indology > Sent: Sat, Feb 22, 2014 2:18 pm > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106 > > I had another look at Ku?untokai 106, discussed earlier by Palaniappan and Hart: > > ? > t?ti ?e?cattuk kil?avi namvayi? > vanta??u v??i t??i n?mu > neypey t?yi? etirko??u > t?m(/t??/ta?) ma?anta?aiyam e?a vi?ukan t?t?. > > As I see it, the real problem of the poem consists of the construction of two verbal participles, or absolutives, etirko??u and ma?antu, followed by a?aiyam ?we are like that?. The construction is rare but I found one other instance in Na??i?ai 179, lines 6-7 (v??kuva?al? vimmi nerunalum a?aiyal?) about a spoilt girl who refuses to drink the sweet milk her mother gave her, sobbing (vimmi, a verbal participle) and clamouring for more extravagant sweets (v??kuva?al?, a participial noun). Only yesterday the girl behaved like that (a?aiyal?) but just now she ran away with a unknown ? and poor ? fellow. No more sweet milk for her! > If this is how the construction works, the situation underlying our Ku?untokai poems may be described in the following way. The woman speaking had sulked, her lover had fled away and sent a messenger telling that he does not understand why she was angry at him. She replies that sulking is just part of the play: making love (ma?antu) after a quarrel (opposing the lover's avances, etirko??u, flaring up like fire into which ghee/oil is poured) is special. Compare Sattasa? 522 in the translation by Peter Khoroche and me (Poems of Life and Love in Ancient India. H?la's Sattasa?, p. 115): ?After every quarrel, it's true/The pleasures of love taste new. > > Herman > > Herman Tieken > University of Leiden > The Netherlands > website: hermantieken.com > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Wed Feb 26 16:56:26 2014 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 14 16:56:26 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Blaise Pascal visiting research chairs Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED082C8D3@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Dear friends, The Blaise Pascal Chairs, in Paris, are visiting research positions for senior scholars in any discipline. The competition has just been announced and information may be found here: www.chaires-blaise-pascal.ens.fr (with apologies for cross-posting) Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Wed Feb 26 18:47:25 2014 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 14 19:47:25 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement Message-ID: ?Dear List Members, I should like to draw your attention to the publication below:? ?? Walter Slaje, Kingship in Ka?m?r ( ?? ?AD? 1148?1459). From the Pen of Jonar?ja, Court Pa??it to Sul??n Zayn al-??bid?n. Critically Edited with an Annotated Translation, Indexes and Maps. [Studia Indologica Universitatis Halensis. 7]. Halle: Universit?tsverlag Halle-Wittenberg 2014. pp. 330, 2 Maps. ISBN 978-3-86977-88-8 Description Commissioned by Sul??n Zayn al-??bid?n to carry on Kalha?a?s R?jatara?gi??, Pa??it Jonar?ja was the first to compose another R?jatara?gi?? in continuation. Jonar?ja?s work covers the period of Hindu rule in Ka?m?r from AD 1148 until its decline in AD 1339 (Ko?? Dev?) and the transition to Islamic sovereignty exercised by the ??h M?r dynasty. His account, couched in poetical language, breaks off in AD 1459, the year of his death. The latter half of Jonar?ja?s chronicle focuses on the three Sul??ns of Ka?m?r, Sikandar ??h and his sons ?Al? ??h and Zayn al-??bid?n, whose lives he had recorded for the most part as an eyewitness. The causes and circumstances accompanying the Islamization of the valley from AD 1339 onward are accordingly depicted in a comparatively detailed manner. The present critical edition of Jonar?ja was prepared mainly from ??rad? manuscripts, which have only recently emerged, and from the pool of variant readings reported by Srikanth Kaul (1967). It comprises all additional and substitutional stanzas of Pseudo-Jonar?ja and is accompanied by an annotated translation that also includes a rendering of Pseudo-Jonar?ja?s text, translated here for the first time.The book comes with a R?jatara?gi?? research bibliography, comprehensive indexes of contemporary personal names and toponyms along with their geographic coordinates. An image of Sul??n Zayn?s founding stone of his artificial island (La?k?) in the Volur Lake and four maps with historical sites of central importance to events and personalities as portrayed by Jonar?ja conclude the volume. ? Further information and orders:? ? http://www.universitaetsverlag-halle-wittenberg.de/english/studia-indologica/kingship-in-kasmir-ad-1148-1459.html ? ? Kindly regarding, ? Walter Slaje ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harshadehejia at hotmail.com Wed Feb 26 22:47:04 2014 From: harshadehejia at hotmail.com (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 14 17:47:04 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Narsinh Mehta Message-ID: Friends~ Has anyone from our group done work on the Gujarati poet Narsinh Mehta? Kind regards. HarshaHarsha V. DehejiaOttawa, ON., Canada. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Wed Feb 26 23:00:16 2014 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 14 23:00:16 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Narsinh Mehta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe Neelima Shukla-Bhatt at Wellesley College is working on a monograph. Tim Lubin From: Harsha Dehejia > Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 5:47 PM To: Indology List > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Narsinh Mehta Friends~ Has anyone from our group done work on the Gujarati poet Narsinh Mehta? Kind regards. Harsha Harsha V. Dehejia Ottawa, ON., Canada. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Thu Feb 27 01:38:22 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 14 20:38:22 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sindhu- names of Indian submarines Message-ID: <8D10173BBCA38F5-33F8-5A8D@webmail-m282.sysops.aol.com> Dear Indologists, Does anybody know the cultural reason why the Indian Navy's submarines are all named Sindhu- as given in the following story? http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/navy-chief-quits-over-spate-of-submarine-mishaps/article5729695.ece?homepage=true Five of, of India?s thirteen conventionally-powered submarines, naval sources have told The Hindu, have exceeded their design life. The INS Sindhughosh, Sindhudhaj, the Sindhuraj, Sindhuvir and ill-fated Sindhuratna, all Russian-manufactured Kilo-class submarines, were all inducted between 1986 and 1988. The most recent of the Kilo-class fleet, the Sindhushastra, was puchased in 2000, preceded by the Sindhurakshak in 1997, and the Sindhuvijay was inducted in 1991. Thanks Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Thu Feb 27 05:12:43 2014 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 14 21:12:43 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sindhu- names of Indian submarines In-Reply-To: <8D10173BBCA38F5-33F8-5A8D@webmail-m282.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <851128B7-C6D4-4028-8BE5-F71A3110366D@mail.ubc.ca> sindhu is used here in the sense of 'sea, ocean.' "dhaj" in the second name should probably be dhvaj/dhvaja, meaning 'flag, banner.' a.a. On 2014-02-26, at 5:38 PM, wrote: > Does anybody know the cultural reason why the Indian Navy's submarines are all named Sindhu- as given in the following story? > > http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/navy-chief-quits-over-spate-of-submarine-mishaps/article5729695.ece?homepage=true > > Five of, of India?s thirteen conventionally-powered submarines, naval sources have told The Hindu, have exceeded their design life. The INS Sindhughosh, Sindhudhaj, the Sindhuraj, Sindhuvir and ill-fated Sindhuratna, all Russian-manufactured Kilo-class submarines, were all inducted between 1986 and 1988. The most recent of the Kilo-class fleet, the Sindhushastra, was puchased in 2000, preceded by the Sindhurakshak in 1997, and the Sindhuvijay was inducted in 1991. > > Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Thu Feb 27 06:13:13 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 14 01:13:13 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_South_Indian_Inscriptions,_Vol._5,_No._645_and_the_commentary_on_Pati=E1=B9=9F=E1=B9=9Fuppattu_43?= Message-ID: <8D1019A211ECFC2-33F8-6BBA@webmail-m282.sysops.aol.com> In his commentary on Pati??uppattu43.19-20, Auvai Turaic?mi Pi??ai highlights the tradition of Tamil kings?patronage of poets and bards like the P??ar continuing even in the12th century CE in the following words. "????? ??????????????? ???????? ???????? ????????????? ????????? ?????????????. ???????????? ????????????????? ???????? ??????????? ?????, ??????? ???????? ????? ???????? ???????? ????????? ??????? ????????? ??????????? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ??????????? ????? ????????? (S. I. I. Vol. V. No. 645) ???? ??????? ?????? ???????????????? ?????????." Pi??ai has rendered the relevantportion of the inscriptional text as ?perum pulavarum aru? kavi?arum n?ppu?unallicaip p??arum k??iyarum kuyiluvarum n??u n??u cen?u iravalar?y i?umpai n??kip puravalar?yp puka?pa?aippa??. This passage occurs as partof the eulogy of Kul?ttu?ka? II (not Kul?ttu?ka? III as Pi??ai hasstated). The actual inscriptional text is shown in the attachment as perumpulavaru maru? kavi?aru n?ppu?u nallicaip p??arum ko?iyarum kuyilavaru n??un??ucen?iravalar?yi?umpai ni?kip puravalar?yp puka? pa?aippa? One can see that Pi??ai has split thesandhi as iravalar? yi?umpai > iravalar?y + i?umpai, whichsuggests that under the king's rule poets and bards went from place to place assupplicants and got rid of their suffering,which does not really add to the glory of the king. In order to make sensethat fits thespirit of eulogy of the inscription, it seems that the sandhi is better splitas in ?iravalar?ya i?umpai? much like the case of sandhis wediscussed in the Ku?untokai 106 thread. The revision will mean that thepoets and bards were relieved of the suffering of going from place to place bythe king's munificence and they became patrons of others! (By the way, n?ppu?u seems to bea misreading of narappu?u.) I appreciate any comments. Thanks in advance Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SII5-645Page2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 955478 bytes Desc: not available URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Thu Feb 27 12:30:23 2014 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 14 12:30:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdfs of velvikkuti and cinnamamur inscriptions Message-ID: David Shulman (shulman at prism.as.huji.ac.il) asked if I had pdfs of the Velvikkuti and Cinnamamur inscriptions, which I do not have. I wonder if any of the list members happens to have them and could send them to David. The Velvikkuti Grant is published in Epigraphia Indica 17 (1923-1924), pp. 291-309; the (two) Cinnamamur Grant(s) in South Indian Inscriptions Vol. 3, Part 4 (1929), pp. 441-465. Herman Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Feb 27 14:06:24 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 14 15:06:24 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdfs of velvikkuti and cinnamamur inscriptions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a note in my files that v17 of EI is available for download from the Digital Library of India. Best, Dominik On 27 February 2014 13:30, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote: > David Shulman (shulman at prism.as.huji.ac.il) asked if I had pdfs of the > Velvikkuti and Cinnamamur inscriptions, which I do not have. I wonder if > any of the list members happens to have them and could send them to David. > The Velvikkuti Grant is published in Epigraphia Indica 17 (1923-1924), pp. > 291-309; the (two) Cinnamamur Grant(s) in South Indian Inscriptions Vol. > 3, Part 4 (1929), pp. 441-465. > Herman > > > Herman Tieken > University of Leiden > The Netherlands > website: hermantieken.com > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Fri Feb 28 08:23:55 2014 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 14 09:23:55 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Position of Sanskrit lecturer in Lyon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: See attachment. The applicants should follow the procedure as indicated in GALAXIE : https://www.galaxie.enseignementsup-recherche.gouv.fr/ensup/cand_recrutement.htm . If I understand well, the application will have to be entered in GALAXIE between 27 February (10 a.m.) and 1st April (4 p.m.), as well as here : https://recrutement-ens-chercheur.univ-lyon3.fr Reference University Lyon 3 (Jean Moulin) Num?ro de poste : 0379 Corps : MCF Section 1 : 15 Profil : Sanskrit et litt?ratures indiennes Profil enseignement Composante ou UFR : Langues Il est attendu du futur ma?tre de conf?rences en sanskrit et litt?ratures indiennes qu?il puisse enseigner au sein de la licence en UEO / DU, comme en niveau avanc?. Dans le cadre de la licence, il sera amen? ? enseigner surtout le sanskrit et les litt?ratures de l?Inde classique et m?di?vale. Dans le cadre de la collaboration au niveau master qui doit ?tre mis en place avec l?Universit? de Lausanne, il devra compl?ter les comp?tences d?enseignement des partenaires de Lausanne (?poque classique et contemporaine) : il sera donc charg? d?animer un s?minaire de litt?rature sanskrite et prakrite et sera responsable d?un enseignement sur les litt?ratures et les religions de l?Inde m?di?vale, un domaine sur lequel devront porter ses recherches. l Profil recherche On attend du futur ma?tre de conf?rences que ses travaux s?int?grent dans les projets de recherche d?avenir qui sont d?j? mis en place avec l?Inde. Ils devront donc porter notamment sur la valorisation de l?h?ritage culturel de l?Inde m?di?vale qui est encore largement m?connu (?dition de textes sanskrits, traductions, commentaires et mise en perspective avec la p?riode contemporaine). Ce domaine d?expertise compl?te en effet les sp?cialit?s de nos partenaires indiens et s?inscrit dans la campagne actuelle de promotion du riche patrimoine litt?raire indien. Laboratoire 1 : IRphil l Autres activit?s On attend du candidat ? ce poste qu?il soit pr?t ? d?velopper des projets de recherche disciplinaires et interdisciplinaires de dimension internationale (notamment avec l?Inde, la Suisse et l?Allemagne). Le candidat devra tout particuli?rement concourir au d?veloppement des relations de l?universit? Jean Moulin ? Lyon 3 avec les universit?s et les organismes de recherche indiens. l Comp?tences particuli?res attendues Etant donn? la part importante de l?enseignement, il est attendu du candidat qu?il ait une solide exp?rience en la mati?re. l Informations compl?mentaires Enseignement : D?partement d?enseignement : D?partement d?indologie Lieu(x) d?exercice : Facult? des langues, 69008 Lyon Nom directeur d?partement : Christine Chojnacki Email directeur d?pt. : christine.chojnacki at univ-lyon3.fr URL d?pt. : http://facdeslangues.univ-lyon3.fr/presentation/departements/indologie/ Recherche : Irphil : Axe Recherche sur la Circulation des Id?es (responsable B. Pinchard) Lieu(x) d?exercice : Palais de la Recherche, 18, rue Chevreul, 69007 Lyon Nom directeur labo : Thierry Gontier Email directeur labo : thierry.gontier at univ-lyon3.fr URL labo : http://irphil.univ-lyon3.fr/recherche/institut-de-recherches/institut-de-recherches-philosophiques-de-lyon-616432. Descriptif labo : S?il est un institut reconnu pour ses sp?cialit?s en philosophie, l?IRphil se caract?rise aussi par son ouverture pluridisciplinaire et interdisciplinaire sur les mondes arabe, russe et indien. C?est dans ce cadre que s?inscrivent notamment les recherches concernant les religions de l?Occident et de l?Orient (sources textuelles, ?volutions, et rapports entre religions et ?tat) ainsi que les travaux sur les litt?ratures compar?es (circulations des textes, des genres et des motifs). Mots-clefs : sanskrit, litt?ratures indiennes, Inde m?di?vale Key-words: Sanskrit, Indian Literatures, Medieval India ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SanskritLyon3.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 8453 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scharfpm7 at gmail.com Fri Feb 28 11:42:12 2014 From: scharfpm7 at gmail.com (Peter Scharf) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 14 17:12:12 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Research Associates sought Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Please bring the following announcement to the attention of qualified applicants and repost on relevant lists. Thank you. Yours, Peter Scharf Research Associates sought The Sanskrit Library seeks two post-doctoral research associates for two years, from 1 July 2014 to 30 June 2016, to assist in manuscript cataloguing and automated text-image alignment. The Sanskrit Library is a non-profit digital library making the heritage texts of India accessible on the web. The projects are funded by grants from the U.S. National Endowment for the Humanities. The assistant will be responsible for formatting manuscript data in an XML template based upon the manuscript guidelines of the Text-Encoding Initiative, and for assembling OCR training data and validating automated transcription in interfaces produced in the project. Each position carries a stipend of $1,500 per month. For full details and to apply please open the following link: Sanskrit Library assistant announcement All applications filed by 27 March 2014 will be granted full consideration. ******************************** Peter M. Scharf, President The Sanskrit Library scharf at sanskritlibrary.org http://www.sanskritlibrary.org ******************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hegartyjm at googlemail.com Fri Feb 28 11:42:51 2014 From: hegartyjm at googlemail.com (James Hegarty) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 14 11:42:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Contact email for Prof. Dilip Chakrabarti Message-ID: <0BE1CE59-2341-41E5-8F9B-24038C57E8AC@gmail.com> Dear Colleagues, I am organising a workshop with an Archaeologist colleague on connections between literary and material culture (much influenced by the work of Alfred Gell on artistic production). I am planning to contact U.K. Archaeologists with an interest in South Asian material culture. Excuse my rather limited geographical horizons, but funding is, as always, something of an issue. To this end, does anyone have an up to date email address for Prof. Chakrabarti? Can anyone also advise me of U.K. Archaeologists with an interest in early South Asian materials (post-Indus valley), other than Prof. Robin Coningham, whose contact details are easily obtainable. If Prof. Coningham is a member of the list, perhaps he can advise! With Thanks and Best Wishes, James Hegarty Cardiff University