From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 01:18:18 2014 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 14 06:48:18 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] verse portions of Panchatantra Message-ID: Is there any work on verse portions of Panchatantra ? Thanks in advance for any leads. Context: My father Late Sri Sitaramanjaneyulu Paturi (1928- 2007) compiled in 2005, a book called "VishNus'armakrtA AryAnItisaptatih", by collecting verses in AryA meter from VishNus'arma's Panchatantra . In his introduction to this book he wrote , " Some 48 years ago, (around 1957), I was going through the verses in Panchatantra. Found them to be in different meters and different styles. Some of them were found to be traditional muktaka type verses. Some others were found quoted from S'Astra granthas, Dharmas'Astra and nItis'Astra books. Meanwhile I noticed a few verses in AryA meter all in almost the same style,two in the beginning of the book, a few in aparIkshitakAraka all in one place and some more scattered at different places in between these two locations. The style of conveying the message of nIti in all these AryA meters was also found to be interestingly uniform. ............. They are 81 in all. 6 of them are found each twice. Two are mentioned as 'uktam cha varAhamihirENa'. One is from the das'akam called 'arhapaddhatih' from the nItis'atakam of Bhartrhari, 1& 2 are mangalas'loka and introductory s'loka placed in the beginning of Panchatantra. Subtracting these 9, the remaining s'lokas turn out to be 70. I developed a feeling that all these 70 must be VishNus'arma's own compositions. It is also possible that he composed a book of 70 nItis'lokas before composing Panchatantra and embedded different verses of that work of his own at suitable places in the book Panchatantra.? In his Telugu notes in the introduction of this book with Telugu commentary to these 70 s'lokas, he brought out many grammatical, astronomical/astrological, sociological issues of interest from these 70 s'lokas. I am working towards the the English translation of this Telugu work. Thanks. Nagaraj -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Mon Dec 1 08:15:19 2014 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 14 08:15:19 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0374A8D57@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> What a great story, Patrick! Thanks for sharing it. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago From jacob at fabularasa.dk Mon Dec 1 10:17:03 2014 From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 14 11:17:03 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] verse portions of Panchatantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <211396e51653a4e911b84d594c1d6d71@fabularasa.dk> Dear Nagaraj, Volume 1 of Ludwik Sternbach's "The K?vya-portions in the Kath?-literature" contains an overview of all the verses in the Pa?catantra and their possible sources. Best, Jacob Jacob Schmidt-Madsen Lecturer Department of Indology University of Copenhagen Denmark Nagaraj Paturi skrev den 2014-12-01 02:18: > Is there any work on verse portions of Panchatantra ? > > Thanks in advance for any leads. > > Context: > >> My father Late Sri Sitaramanjaneyulu Paturi (1928- 2007) compiled in >> 2005, a book called "VishNus'armakrtA AryAnItisaptatih", by >> collecting verses in AryA meter from VishNus'arma's Panchatantra . >> >> In his introduction to this book he wrote , >> >> " Some 48 years ago, (around 1957), I was going through the verses >> in Panchatantra. Found them to be in different meters and different >> styles. Some of them were found to be traditional muktaka type >> verses. Some others were found quoted from S'Astra granthas, >> Dharmas'Astra and nItis'Astra books. Meanwhile I noticed a few >> verses in AryA meter all in almost the same style,two in the >> beginning of the book, a few in aparIkshitakAraka all in one place >> and some more scattered at different places in between these two >> locations. The style of conveying the message of nIti in all these >> AryA meters was also found to be interestingly uniform. >> >> ............. >> >> They are 81 in all. 6 of them are found each twice. Two are >> mentioned as 'uktam cha varAhamihirENa'. One is from the das'akam >> called 'arhapaddhatih' from the nItis'atakam of Bhartrhari, 1& 2 are >> mangalas'loka and introductory s'loka placed in the beginning of >> Panchatantra. Subtracting these 9, the remaining s'lokas turn out to >> be 70. >> >> I developed a feeling that all these 70 must be VishNus'arma's own >> compositions. It is also possible that he composed a book of 70 >> nItis'lokas before composing Panchatantra and embedded different >> verses of that work of his own at suitable places in the book >> Panchatantra.? > > In his Telugu notes in the introduction of this book with Telugu > commentary to these 70 s'lokas, he brought out many grammatical, > astronomical/astrological, sociological issues of interest from these > 70 s'lokas. > > I am working towards the the English translation of this Telugu work. > > Thanks. > > Nagaraj > > -- > > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad-500044 > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 10:30:10 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 14 16:00:10 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Patrick! In Hoshiarpur I was surprised to find an Institution after MS. Chatterjee's name. No local person could tell much. She is remembered as a Christian Missionary. Professor K.V.Sarma told of her missionary activities. I shall be glad to know more about her. Best DB On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 4:31 AM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > Thought this may interest some of you: 19th century Indian women studying > medicine in the USA. > > Patrick > > > > > > > http://scroll.in/article/659624/Remarkable-photos-of-19th-century-Indian-women-in-US-medical-school > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Dec 1 11:17:36 2014 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 14 06:17:36 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Patrick. Of these three ladies, Anandibai Joshi and her story is well known in Maharashtra, and several books have been written in Marathi about her. But I had not known about the other two. Madhav On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 6:01 PM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > Thought this may interest some of you: 19th century Indian women studying > medicine in the USA. > > Patrick > > > > > > > http://scroll.in/article/659624/Remarkable-photos-of-19th-century-Indian-women-in-US-medical-school > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 12:40:48 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 14 13:40:48 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What courageous ladies! Thanks, Patrick. A fascinating bit of social and medical history. Dominik ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From catherine.clementin-ojha at ehess.fr Mon Dec 1 12:49:32 2014 From: catherine.clementin-ojha at ehess.fr (Clementin Catherine) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 14 13:49:32 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anandibai In-Reply-To: <660981292.49574519.1417438081049.JavaMail.zimbra@ehess.fr> Message-ID: <1805245283.49576239.1417438172772.JavaMail.zimbra@ehess.fr> There is an interesting paper on Anandi Bai by Meera Kosambi: ? 1996. ? Anandibai Joshee: Retrieving a Fragmented Feminist Image ? dans Economic and Political Weekly, Vol. 31, No. 49, pp. 3189-3197. Best, Catherine Clementin-Ojha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martin.gansten at pbhome.se Mon Dec 1 21:20:48 2014 From: martin.gansten at pbhome.se (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 14 22:20:48 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Science and art in classical/early modern India Message-ID: <547CDBB0.2010303@pbhome.se> I'm sure there must exist, though I can't offhand recall seeing, scholarly discussions of concepts corresponding more or less closely to 'science' and 'art' in classical (and perhaps early modern) India. In Sanskrit, I suppose relevant terms would include ??stra and kal?. I'm thinking of contexts like the modern debate (which I have often heard, in English, in India) over whether astrology is a science or an art, or both. I would be grateful for any reading suggestions on this topic. Martin Gansten From bill.m.mak at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 05:56:47 2014 From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 14 14:56:47 +0900 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Paris=CC=81is=CC=A3t=CC=A3as_of_the_Atharvaveda?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Here is the link to part II which I would keep active for one week: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hpdemrn6kmir25p/The%20pari%C5%9Bi%E1%B9%A3%E1%B9%ADas%20of%20the%20Atharvaveda%20V.1%20P.II.pdf?dl=0 Best regards -- Bill M. Mak Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 ?606-8501 ?????????? ??????????? Tel:+81-75-753-6913 Fax:+81-75-753-6903 copies of my publications may be found at: http://www.billmak.com On 2014/11/12, at 0:14, Arlo Griffiths wrote: > Thanks a lot Christophe and Peter. > > This still leaves vol. I, part II unaccounted for. Is any pdf freely available for that part or for the whole of vol. I (all published)? > > Best wishes, > > Arlo Griffiths > EFEO > > From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be > Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 13:27:24 +0100 > To: indology at list.indology.info > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Paris?is?t?as of the Atharvaveda > > Many thanks to Peter Wyzlic for these links. > > D?but du message r?exp?di? : > > De: Peter Wyzlic > Objet: R?p : [INDOLOGY] Paris?is?t?as of the Atharvaveda > Date: 11 novembre 2014 11:58:18 UTC+1 > ?: Christophe Vielle > > See, e.g., this: > URL: > URL: > > All the best > Peter Wyzlic > > Am 11.11.2014 11:31, schrieb Christophe Vielle: > would it happen that somebody has a better scan (in .pdf) of > G. M. Bolling & J. von Negelein, The Paris?is?t?as of the Atharvaveda. Volume 1: Text and Critical Apparatus, in 2 Parts. Leipzig 1909?1910 > than the one available through the DLI: > http://www.new1.dli.ernet.in/scripts/FullindexDefault.htm?path1=/data9/upload/0288/055&first=1&last=654&barcode=99999990290123 > http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/scripts/FullindexDefault.htm?path1=/data14/upload/0005/392&first=1&last=654&barcode=99999990314562 > > -- > Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften > Bibliothek > Universit?t Bonn > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > D-53113 Bonn > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de Wed Dec 3 19:58:36 2014 From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 14 19:58:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #452 Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D94B9974FE3@UM-excdag-a02.um.gwdg.de> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Mahavagga: PTS/Dhammakaya edition, text in PTS layout and plain floating text version: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#Mahavag Milindapanha: PTS/Dhammakaya edition, annotated version and plain floating text version: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#Milindap __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm From soni at staff.uni-marburg.de Thu Dec 4 08:24:48 2014 From: soni at staff.uni-marburg.de (soni at staff.uni-marburg.de) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 14 09:24:48 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] DK Award for the outstanding doctoral thesis on Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <20131002095247.Horde.UwLT24dGVtq-ilq5SW-BYA1@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: <20141204092448.Horde.1ET9tQ4bzMjvE3gcXgTXtA1@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> For PhD theses on a Sanskrit topic. Deadlines seem to get resurrected almost endlessly. After the deadline for the submission of abstracts for the World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok in 2015, there is a deadline associated with it: The DK award for the outstanding doctoral thesis on Sanskrit, for theses submitted in the period 2012-2014. It is for a scholar who is based outside South Asia. The deadline is 31st January 2015. Please see the details in the website of the IASS for the conditions and the list of previous awardees: http://www.sanskritassociation.org (click on the Publications/DK Award button on the top) Or: go directly to: http://www.sanskritassociation.org/dk-award.php With best wishes, J. Soni Secretary General of the IASS -- From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 15:13:20 2014 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 14 10:13:20 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] ANNOUNCEMENT: Major Vedic manuscript collection added to the Muktabodha Digital Library Message-ID: The Muktabodha Indological Research Institute is pleased to announce that a major Vedic collection of manuscripts has now been added to the Muktabodha Digital Library. *The Vedic Manuscripts of Gokarna collection* consisting of the manuscript collections of the Joglekar, Koglekar and Samba-Diksita families of Gokarna, 238 manuscripts containing ritual manuals of the Apastambha, Baudhayana and Hiranyakesin Vedic traditions, has now been added to the Muktabodha Digital Library. www.muktabodha.org An introduction to the contents of the collection by Professor Frederick M. Smith and a short history to the families and their collections by Mrs. Hema Patankar will be appearing in the near future. The Muktabodha Digital Library now has three major on-line collections. 1. The vedic manuscript collections of the Joglekar, Koglekar and Samba-Diksita families of Gokarna (238 manuscripts in pdf and djvu format) 2. Searchable e-texts of the Tantric/Agamic traditions (320 searchable and downloadable e-texts) 3. The paper transcripts of the Saivite manuscripts of Pondicherry (in association with the IFP and EFEO) (over 4000 texts in pdf and djvu format). These collections can all be accessed from the Muktabodha website at www.muktabodha.org . Harry Spier Manager, Muktabodha Digital Library -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uskokov at uchicago.edu Thu Dec 4 15:57:10 2014 From: uskokov at uchicago.edu (Aleksandar Uskokov) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 14 09:57:10 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Book Request Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Does anyone have a pdf of Jha's Purva Mimamsa in its Sources? I do remember downloading the whole book from DLI, but, alas, I cannot find it anymore. Many thanks in advance, Aleksandar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uskokov at uchicago.edu Thu Dec 4 16:04:23 2014 From: uskokov at uchicago.edu (Aleksandar Uskokov) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 14 10:04:23 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Book Request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many thanks to Andrew Ollett, I now have the pdf. Aleksandar On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Aleksandar Uskokov wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Does anyone have a pdf of Jha's Purva Mimamsa in its Sources? I do > remember downloading the whole book from DLI, but, alas, I cannot find it > anymore. > > Many thanks in advance, > Aleksandar > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paolo.magnone at unicatt.it Thu Dec 4 17:57:19 2014 From: paolo.magnone at unicatt.it (Paolo Magnone) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 14 18:57:19 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scriptures and yugas in the Tantras Message-ID: <5480A07F.3030404@unicatt.it> Dear colleagues, At p. 42 of his/_Introduction to Tantra??stra/_ as well as at p. 36 of his _/Principles of Tantra/_ Woodroffe/Avalon has the Kul?r?ava Tantra say that ?for each age (yuga) a suitable ??stra is given ? namely, in Satyayuga, ?ruti; in Tret?, Sm?ti; in Dv?para, the Pur??as; and in the Kali age the Tantra?, and even quotes in a footnote the following ?loka: /k?te ?rutyukta ?c?ras tret?y?? sm?tisambhava?// //dv?pare tu pur??okta? kalau ?gamakevalam/ without, however, giving a reference. I don?t know of any searchable digital text of the Kul?r?ava Tantra, so I have tried to spot the passage by leafing through the digital edition in Bengali script by Upendrakum?ra D?sa which is available in the Internet Archive, without success. Woodroffe further points to the first /ull?sa /of the Mah?nirv??a Tantra, as well to the Kubj?ka Tantra (likewise without reference) for a similar allocation of the scriptures to each of the four ages. Would any /t?ntrika /on the list be in measure to identify the passage, or point out similar passages in other tantric works? Thank you, Paolo Magnone -- Paolo Magnone Sanskrit Language and Literature Catholic University of the Sacred Heart - Milan History of Religions - Hinduism & Buddhism Theological Faculty of Northern Italy - Milan Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net) Academia.edu: http://unicatt.academia.edu/PaoloMagnone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 18:29:27 2014 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 14 13:29:27 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scriptures and yugas in the Tantras In-Reply-To: <5480A07F.3030404@unicatt.it> Message-ID: Dear Paolo, The Kularnava Tantra is online as a searchable etext on the Muktabodha Indological Research Institutes website at: www.muktabodha.org There are instructions in the digital library to search throughout the collection of tantric texts for passages. I did a search on zrutyukt and found references to the sloka in : kulamuktikallolinI by navamisiMha something similar in tantracintAmaNi also by navamisiMha in purazcarvarNava Vol. 1 something similar in brhattantrasAra Harry Spier Manager, Muktabodha Digital Library On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Paolo Magnone wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > At p. 42 of his* _Introduction to Tantra??stra*_ as well as at p. 36 of > his _*Principles of Tantra*_ Woodroffe/Avalon has the Kul?r?ava Tantra > say that ?for each age (yuga) a suitable ??stra is given ? namely, in > Satyayuga, ?ruti; in Tret?, Sm?ti; in Dv?para, the Pur??as; and in the Kali > age the Tantra?, and even quotes in a footnote the following ?loka: > > *k?te ?rutyukta ?c?ras tret?y?? sm?tisambhava?* > *dv?pare tu pur??okta? kalau ?gamakevalam* > > without, however, giving a reference. I don?t know of any searchable > digital text of the Kul?r?ava Tantra, so I have tried to spot the passage > by leafing through the digital edition in Bengali script by Upendrakum?ra > D?sa which is available in the Internet Archive, without success. > > Woodroffe further points to the first *ull?sa *of the Mah?nirv??a Tantra, > as well to the Kubj?ka Tantra (likewise without reference) for a similar > allocation of the scriptures to each of the four ages. > > Would any *t?ntrika *on the list be in measure to identify the passage, > or point out similar passages in other tantric works? > > Thank you, > Paolo Magnone > > -- > Paolo Magnone > Sanskrit Language and Literature > Catholic University of the Sacred Heart - Milan > History of Religions - Hinduism & Buddhism > Theological Faculty of Northern Italy - Milan > > Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net) > Academia.edu: http://unicatt.academia.edu/PaoloMagnone > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 21:08:56 2014 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 14 16:08:56 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Zoroastrianism and Indian religions In-Reply-To: <7F0E6220-99FA-4C39-8D2C-24B25970CFE1@googlemail.com> Message-ID: Dear James, I apologize for my very late response to your question. Here in northern New England of the USA we have recently suffered a severe pre-winter snowstorm which has knocked out electricity for hundreds of thousands of us. Many of us have only recently managed to get back online. And then of course there are the end of the semester duties.... My interest in Zoroastrianism is focused primarily on the period before the one that you are interested in. But for the Achaemenid and Macedonian periods, which cover the first half of the period of your interest, there are the second and third volumes of Mary Boyce's "A History of Zoroastrianism" [1982; 1991]. Besides this three volume history, she also published a short history of Zoroastrianism [published by Routledge, I think; my copy of that book is buried in a storage unit miles from where I live]. I would also recommend the work of Oktor Skjaevo, who has recently published a book for non-specialists, "The Spirit of Zoroastrianism," which covers your period of interest. The literature on this period is enormous. Perhaps a visit to the online Encyclopedia Iranica would be a place to start. Is your interest in *historical contacts* between Zoroastrians and Hindus of this period? Best wishes, George Thompson On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 12:50 PM, James Hegarty wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Can anyone point me to work that takes up possible connections (beyond a > common Indo-European heritage) between Zoroastrianism and Indic religions? > I am especially interested in the period from the C5th BCE to the C5th CE. > > Thanks and Best Wishes, > > James Hegarty > Cardiff University > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 00:56:19 2014 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 14 19:56:19 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scriptures and yugas in the Tantras In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here are all the references in the Muktabodha digital library that begin kRte zrutyukta : Text by: navam?si?ha kulamuktikallolin? : (line: 1972 ): k?te ?rutyukta m?rgastu tret?y?? sm?ti sa?bhava? | Text by: navam?si?ha tantracint?ma?i : (line: 968 ): k?te ?rutyukta m?rga? sy?t tret?y?? sm?tibh??a?a? | Text by: narasi?ha?hakkura t?r?bhaktisudh?r?ava : (line: 1335 ): prapa?ce - k?te ?rutyuktam?rgastu tret?y?? sm?tisambhava? | Text by: unknown pura?cary?r?ava volume 1 : (line: 1022 ): k?te ?rutyuktam?rga? sy?t tret?y?? sm?tibh??ita? | Text by: k????nanda ?gamav?gi?a brhattantras?ra : (line: 140 ): tath? : k?te ?rutyuktam?rga? sy?t tret?y?? sm?tisambhava? Text by: ???ditya trip??hi mantrako?a : (line: 1813 ): k?te ?rutyuktam?rg?tret?y?? stutibh?vata? | Harry On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Harry Spier wrote: > Dear Paolo, > > The Kularnava Tantra is online as a searchable etext on the Muktabodha > Indological Research Institutes website at: > www.muktabodha.org > > There are instructions in the digital library to search throughout the > collection of tantric texts for passages. I did a search on zrutyukt and > found references to the sloka in : > kulamuktikallolinI by navamisiMha > something similar in tantracintAmaNi also by navamisiMha > in purazcarvarNava Vol. 1 > something similar in brhattantrasAra > > Harry Spier > Manager, Muktabodha Digital Library > > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Paolo Magnone > wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> At p. 42 of his* _Introduction to Tantra??stra*_ as well as at p. 36 of >> his _*Principles of Tantra*_ Woodroffe/Avalon has the Kul?r?ava Tantra >> say that ?for each age (yuga) a suitable ??stra is given ? namely, in >> Satyayuga, ?ruti; in Tret?, Sm?ti; in Dv?para, the Pur??as; and in the Kali >> age the Tantra?, and even quotes in a footnote the following ?loka: >> >> *k?te ?rutyukta ?c?ras tret?y?? sm?tisambhava?* >> *dv?pare tu pur??okta? kalau ?gamakevalam* >> >> without, however, giving a reference. I don?t know of any searchable >> digital text of the Kul?r?ava Tantra, so I have tried to spot the passage >> by leafing through the digital edition in Bengali script by Upendrakum?ra >> D?sa which is available in the Internet Archive, without success. >> >> Woodroffe further points to the first *ull?sa *of the Mah?nirv??a >> Tantra, as well to the Kubj?ka Tantra (likewise without reference) for a >> similar allocation of the scriptures to each of the four ages. >> >> Would any *t?ntrika *on the list be in measure to identify the passage, >> or point out similar passages in other tantric works? >> >> Thank you, >> Paolo Magnone >> >> -- >> Paolo Magnone >> Sanskrit Language and Literature >> Catholic University of the Sacred Heart - Milan >> History of Religions - Hinduism & Buddhism >> Theological Faculty of Northern Italy - Milan >> >> Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net) >> Academia.edu: http://unicatt.academia.edu/PaoloMagnone >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naomi.appleton at ed.ac.uk Fri Dec 5 14:29:33 2014 From: naomi.appleton at ed.ac.uk (Naomi Appleton) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 14 14:29:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spalding Symposium on Indian Religions, 10th-12th April 2015, Edinburgh Message-ID: <426A4E08-7D1F-4CD1-B830-B227206915F3@ed.ac.uk> Dear Colleagues, Booking for the Spalding Symposium on Indian Religions 2015 is now open. If you follow the link below you can register and pay, either as a residential guest (?190 including a room for two nights and all meals) or a non-residential guest (?65, no accommodation, all meals). A variety of day-rate options are also available. Accommodation is limited so book early to avoid disappointment. bit.ly/SpaldingSymposium The Symposium will be held in Edinburgh, UK, 10th-12th April 2015, and will have the theme "dialogue". Professors Uma Chakravarti and Stephen Berkwitz will be our keynote speakers, supplemented by an impressive range of papers from other scholars. More information, including a draft programme, can be found on our website www.spaldingsymposium.org, and queries can be directed to myself as convenor: naomi.appleton at ed.ac.uk. With best wishes, Naomi -------------------------------- Dr Naomi Appleton Chancellor's Fellow in Religious Studies School of Divinity, University of Edinburgh naomi.appleton at ed.ac.uk http://naomiappleton.wordpress.com http://storyofstoryinsouthasia.wordpress.com The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 16:53:03 2014 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 14 17:53:03 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Orality and memory culture in the transmission of the Vedas: video clips / intended public: students in Indology ... Message-ID: Would it really be possible that vaidika pandits learn by heart such huge amounts of text, and are able to reproduce them correctly, syllable by syllable and tone by tone? The following clips demonstrate the predominant orality and memory culture in current Vedic schools. Among these clips, the second is a proof that at least the group of students studying the Saamaveda on that day (pre-dawn hour) in February 2001 did not use any hidden piece of paper to read the text of their lengthy chants: see what happened to their chant when there is a failure of electricity and the light goes off. The chanting tradition followed here is that of the rare Ranayaniya school of the Saamaveda. The fourth clip shows the performance of the Pravadbhaargava saaman earlier studied by the students. Intended public of these clips: students in Indology, Indian Studies, Ritual Studies, History of Education, History of Music, Ethnomusicology. vimeo.com/82963699, vimeo.com/90023730, vimeo.com/90040436, vimeo.com/111214428 Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Sciences historiques et philologiques, Sorbonne ? 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris ? France. johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From franco at uni-leipzig.de Sat Dec 6 21:18:51 2014 From: franco at uni-leipzig.de (Eli Franco) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 14 22:18:51 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two recent publications In-Reply-To: <908899b537a301ff3e2846b7a1209df4.squirrel@webmail.univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <20141206221851.Horde.WPbKgOq0Jm92sC59OPRAIQ1@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Apologies for cross-listing: Dear friends and colleagues, I would like to draw your attention to the following recent publications: Shinya Moriyama, Omniscience and Religious Authority. A Study on Prajnakaragupta's Pramanavarttikalankarabhasya ad Pramanavarttika II 8-10 and 29-33. Leipziger Studien zu Kultur und Geschichte S?d- und Zentralasiens Vol. 4. Lit-Verlag 2014, 328 pp., EUR 49.90 (ISBN 978-3-643-90477-5) Eli Franco and Miyako Notake, Dharmakirti on the Duality of the Object. Pramanavarttika III 1-63. Leipziger Studien zu Kultur und Geschichte S?d- und Zentralasiens Vol. 5. Lit-Verlag 2014, 192 pp., EUR 24.90 (ISBN 978-3-643-90486-7) With best wishes, EF -- Prof. Dr. Eli Franco Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Schillerstr. 6 04109 Leipzig Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office) Fax +49 341 9737 148 From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 09:18:20 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 14 14:48:20 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Orality and memory culture in the transmission of the Vedas: video clips / intended public: students in Indology ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wonder but not unimaginable. One can be fairly certain that the many characteristic features of the A???dhy?y? , terse prose-- sentences without finite verb, not an essential feature of contemporary ritual s?tras, obsession with brevity (l?ghava), enumerative ie non-explicative definition, almost total absence of argumentation, the abridgement of material worth some thousands of pages of discussion, into a few pages of 4004 s?tras, can be explained only by the postulation of an environment of entirely oral transmission of knowledge. So at a time not later than the 4th century BCE. The ?gvedic teaching and training could not be different. The real wonder is that the practice continued even after writing material became available sufficiently. On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 10:23 PM, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Would it really be possible that vaidika pandits learn by heart such huge > amounts of text, and are able to reproduce them correctly, syllable by > syllable and tone by tone? > The following clips demonstrate the predominant orality and memory culture > in current Vedic schools. > Among these clips, the second is a proof that at least the group of > students studying the Saamaveda on that day (pre-dawn hour) in February > 2001 did not use any hidden piece of paper to read the text of their > lengthy chants: see what happened to their chant when there is a failure of > electricity and the light goes off. > The chanting tradition followed here is that of the rare Ranayaniya school > of the Saamaveda. > The fourth clip shows the performance of the Pravadbhaargava saaman > earlier studied by the students. > Intended public of these clips: > students in Indology, Indian Studies, Ritual Studies, History of > Education, History of Music, Ethnomusicology. > > > vimeo.com/82963699, > vimeo.com/90023730, > vimeo.com/90040436, > vimeo.com/111214428 > > > > Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, > Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Sciences historiques et philologiques, > Sorbonne ? 54, rue Saint-Jacques > CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris ? France. > johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 11:01:14 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 14 12:01:14 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Orality and memory culture in the transmission of the Vedas: video clips / intended public: students in Indology ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Respecfully, I disagree. Many generalizations are made about oral literature, but empirical or quantitative evidence to support such assertions is less common. By quantitative evicence, I mean, for example, counting actual volumes of material, analyzing its uses, the relation of comprehension to volume, and so forth. Do we even know, really, the answer to even such a simple question as "what makes a text easy to memorize?" For example, one migh think, prima facie, that the proliferation of very similar sentences and paragraphs, such as we see in the Tripitaka, would lead directly to error. But apparently this extensive repetition (which we also see in sastric texts like the Mahabhasya) was a positive contribution to accurate transmission, not a negative one. Another simple question would be, does the amount of text to be memorized have any impact on accuracy or ease of memorization? Or is the volume of text only related to the amount of time necessary to memorize it? It seems likely that "memory muscles" would get stronger the more a person practiced. In short, there are many questions, including ones bordering on neurology, that bear investigation as part of an exploration of the factors affecting memorization. The idea that Panini's grammar contains abbreviations etc. simply as a side-effect of oral transmission seems to me to be such an unfounded assertion. We know for a fact that gargantuan amounts of literature were memorized by Vaidika brahmanas and Buddhist monks. By comparison, the Astadhyayi is a tiny text. I would hypothesize that in a cultural milieu that supported memorization and where students had sufficient resources of time, memorizing the Astadhyayi was really quite easy. My own studies of Panini's system lead me to believe that the various techniques of abbreviation it uses are motivated by a sense of beauty, efficiency, internal coherence and perhaps even intellectual playfulness. Exactly what mathematicians call "elegance ." I think we can ask whether the Astadhyayi's internal concision is not better understood as a product of intensive use by an expert community over a period of time, like a tool becoming smooth in the hand of an artisan. Were mnemotechnical devices not developed so intensively in Paninian grammar because they provided vaiyakaranas with aesthetic pleasure and astonishment, in ancient times as much as today? Dominik Wujastyk On 7 December 2014 at 10:18, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > Wonder but not unimaginable. > > One can be fairly certain that the many characteristic features of the > A???dhy?y? , terse prose-- sentences without finite verb, not an essential > feature of contemporary ritual s?tras, obsession with brevity (l?ghava), > enumerative ie non-explicative definition, almost total absence of > argumentation, the abridgement of material worth some thousands of pages of > discussion, into a few pages of 4004 s?tras, can be explained only by > the postulation of an environment of entirely oral transmission of > knowledge. So at a time not later than the 4th century BCE. The ?gvedic > teaching and training could not be different. > > The real wonder is that the practice continued even after writing material > became available sufficiently. > > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 10:23 PM, Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: > >> Would it really be possible that vaidika pandits learn by heart such huge >> amounts of text, and are able to reproduce them correctly, syllable by >> syllable and tone by tone? >> The following clips demonstrate the predominant orality and memory >> culture in current Vedic schools. >> Among these clips, the second is a proof that at least the group of >> students studying the Saamaveda on that day (pre-dawn hour) in February >> 2001 did not use any hidden piece of paper to read the text of their >> lengthy chants: see what happened to their chant when there is a failure of >> electricity and the light goes off. >> The chanting tradition followed here is that of the rare Ranayaniya >> school of the Saamaveda. >> The fourth clip shows the performance of the Pravadbhaargava saaman >> earlier studied by the students. >> Intended public of these clips: >> students in Indology, Indian Studies, Ritual Studies, History of >> Education, History of Music, Ethnomusicology. >> >> >> vimeo.com/82963699, >> vimeo.com/90023730, >> vimeo.com/90040436, >> vimeo.com/111214428 >> >> >> >> Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, >> Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Sciences historiques et philologiques, >> Sorbonne ? 54, rue Saint-Jacques >> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris ? France. >> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >> * >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 12:32:25 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 14 18:02:25 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Orality and memory culture in the transmission of the Vedas: video clips / intended public: students in Indology ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To explain the unique phenomenon physiologically disregarding the Indian context may lead at best to downplaying it, and worse even to a theory of racial difference. Many earlier philologists did not admit the oral transmission in case of large prose texts like the Br?hma?as. Now the fact is accepted. So there *was* a unique development in India. As belonging to this new conscious generation Professor Houben is very welcome. The contrary views are inevitable but the given aesthetic explanation does not explain their non-occurrence in early historical China or Greece. There is no reason to disregard the relatively late emergence of written literature in India which fits in with the phenomenon. P??ini's A???dhy?y? is an easy text to remember because of its successfully structured composition. But see Whitney's comments in the 1880s that Thieme had to contradict. The A???dhy?y? was not easy for Whitney and Weber. The actual magnitude in normal language, along with its computer program like compactness and intertwining of the rules, will be apparent from the K??ik? commentary. Normally, that is not got by heart. I did not mention Pata?jali because of his metalinguistic discussions. Two more points. The pedagogic need and oral transmission both contributed to the phenomenon. Secondly their continuance in India was most probably caused by both scarcity and perishability of the normal Indian paper that is palm leaf in late medieval India and earlier, perhaps, any leaf which was less durable. Birchbark was expensive for the village scholar. I tried to treat the matter more extensively elsewhere. I heartily encourage the dialogue but at the same time can assure that the related problems and issues are of considerable magnitude not accommodable in a forum discussion. DB On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 4:31 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Respecfully, I disagree. > > Many generalizations are made about oral literature, but empirical or > quantitative evidence to support such assertions is less common. By > quantitative evicence, I mean, for example, counting actual volumes of > material, analyzing its uses, the relation of comprehension to volume, and > so forth. Do we even know, really, the answer to even such a simple > question as "what makes a text easy to memorize?" For example, one migh > think, prima facie, that the proliferation of very similar sentences and > paragraphs, such as we see in the Tripitaka, would lead directly to error. > But apparently this extensive repetition (which we also see in sastric > texts like the Mahabhasya) was a positive contribution to accurate > transmission, not a negative one. Another simple question would be, does > the amount of text to be memorized have any impact on accuracy or ease of > memorization? Or is the volume of text only related to the amount of time > necessary to memorize it? It seems likely that "memory muscles" would get > stronger the more a person practiced. > > In short, there are many questions, including ones bordering on neurology, > that bear investigation as part of an exploration of the factors affecting > memorization. > > The idea that Panini's grammar contains abbreviations etc. simply as a > side-effect of oral transmission seems to me to be such an unfounded > assertion. We know for a fact that gargantuan amounts of literature were > memorized by Vaidika brahmanas and Buddhist monks. By comparison, the > Astadhyayi is a tiny text. I would hypothesize that in a cultural milieu > that supported memorization and where students had sufficient resources of > time, memorizing the Astadhyayi was really quite easy. > > My own studies of Panini's system lead me to believe that the various > techniques of abbreviation it uses are motivated by a sense of beauty, > efficiency, internal coherence and perhaps even intellectual playfulness. > Exactly what mathematicians call "elegance > ." I think we can ask > whether the Astadhyayi's internal concision is not better understood as a > product of intensive use by an expert community over a period of time, like > a tool becoming smooth in the hand of an artisan. Were mnemotechnical > devices not developed so intensively in Paninian grammar because they > provided vaiyakaranas with aesthetic pleasure and astonishment, in ancient > times as much as today? > > Dominik Wujastyk > > > > On 7 December 2014 at 10:18, Dipak Bhattacharya > wrote: > >> Wonder but not unimaginable. >> >> One can be fairly certain that the many characteristic features of the >> A???dhy?y? , terse prose-- sentences without finite verb, not an essential >> feature of contemporary ritual s?tras, obsession with brevity (l?ghava), >> enumerative ie non-explicative definition, almost total absence of >> argumentation, the abridgement of material worth some thousands of pages of >> discussion, into a few pages of 4004 s?tras, can be explained only by >> the postulation of an environment of entirely oral transmission of >> knowledge. So at a time not later than the 4th century BCE. The ?gvedic >> teaching and training could not be different. >> >> The real wonder is that the practice continued even after writing >> material became available sufficiently. >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 10:23 PM, Jan E.M. Houben >> wrote: >> >>> Would it really be possible that vaidika pandits learn by heart such >>> huge amounts of text, and are able to reproduce them correctly, syllable by >>> syllable and tone by tone? >>> The following clips demonstrate the predominant orality and memory >>> culture in current Vedic schools. >>> Among these clips, the second is a proof that at least the group of >>> students studying the Saamaveda on that day (pre-dawn hour) in February >>> 2001 did not use any hidden piece of paper to read the text of their >>> lengthy chants: see what happened to their chant when there is a failure of >>> electricity and the light goes off. >>> The chanting tradition followed here is that of the rare Ranayaniya >>> school of the Saamaveda. >>> The fourth clip shows the performance of the Pravadbhaargava saaman >>> earlier studied by the students. >>> Intended public of these clips: >>> students in Indology, Indian Studies, Ritual Studies, History of >>> Education, History of Music, Ethnomusicology. >>> >>> >>> vimeo.com/82963699, >>> vimeo.com/90023730, >>> vimeo.com/90040436, >>> vimeo.com/111214428 >>> >>> >>> >>> Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, >>> Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? >>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Sciences historiques et philologiques, >>> Sorbonne ? 54, rue Saint-Jacques >>> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris ? France. >>> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>> * >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 12:54:52 2014 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 14 07:54:52 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] ANNOUNCEMENT: Major Vedic manuscript collection added to the Muktabodha Digital Library Message-ID: CORRECTION: The names of the families who were gracious enough to make their collections available for on-line publication were: Joglekar, Kodlekere (not Koglekar) and Samba-Diksita . Harry Spier Manager, Muktabodha Digital Library On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Harry Spier wrote: > > > The Muktabodha Indological Research Institute is pleased to announce that > a major Vedic collection of manuscripts has now been added to the > Muktabodha Digital Library. > > *The Vedic Manuscripts of Gokarna collection* consisting of the > manuscript collections of the Joglekar, Koglekar and Samba-Diksita families > of Gokarna, 238 manuscripts containing ritual manuals of the Apastambha, > Baudhayana and Hiranyakesin Vedic traditions, has now been added to the > Muktabodha Digital Library. > > www.muktabodha.org > > An introduction to the contents of the collection by Professor Frederick > M. Smith and a short history to the families and their collections by Mrs. > Hema Patankar will be appearing in the near future. > > The Muktabodha Digital Library now has three major on-line collections. > 1. The vedic manuscript collections of the Joglekar, Koglekar and > Samba-Diksita families of Gokarna (238 manuscripts in pdf and djvu format) > 2. Searchable e-texts of the Tantric/Agamic traditions (320 searchable and > downloadable e-texts) > 3. The paper transcripts of the Saivite manuscripts of Pondicherry (in > association with the IFP and EFEO) (over 4000 texts in pdf and djvu format). > > These collections can all be accessed from the Muktabodha website at > www.muktabodha.org . > > Harry Spier > Manager, Muktabodha Digital Library > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Sun Dec 7 15:25:47 2014 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 14 07:25:47 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Orality and memory culture in the transmission of the Vedas: video clips / intended public: students in Indology ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2157D276-010B-49E2-B8A5-98B6988B86C9@berkeley.edu> This discussion disregards the elephant in the room, in my opinion, and that is ?why?? I know of no other culture that went to such effort to describe/prescribe a language ? and we should remember that there were other systems than P??ini?s. The mindset that produced P??ini and other grammatical treatises also worked ? and still works ? for Tamil, which has the Tolk?ppiyam, though it?s not as compact as P??ini. If we can discover why so much effort was devoted to compacting P??ini?s formulations and why it was preserved so carefully we can gain insight into whether it was meant to be oral. Surely it is far easier to memorize ?lokas and other kinds of rhythmical language than P??ini?s s?tras ? I do not believe their brevity has anything to do with memorization (I remember Ingalls once remarked on this). I?m not convinced by the writing-materials argument either. P??ini was impelled by a need for brevity, completeness and correctness, much as a computer programmer is. Everyone knows the ?loka about how a grammarian rejoices more if he can reduce the length of a s?tra by one syllable than he does if he has a son. Isn?t it possible that P??ini was motivated by a desire for a kind of perfect elegance and nothing more? But that still begs the question of ?why.? Perhaps it would be germane to look at the linguistic situation of N. India in P??ini?s time. It?s hardly my field, but I would guess that Vedic Sanskrit was long since extinct as a spoken language and that everyday speech consisted of various sorts of Prakrits, Pali, and the like. Here, the diglossia of modern Tamil may provide some insight. Spoken Tamil is about as far from written Tamil as Prakrit/Pali is from Sanskrit. Yet even though people do not speak it normally, formal written Tamil is cultivated assiduously and people all learn it. It is used in many venues ? political speeches, pur??a movies, and most writing. My guess is that in P??ini?s time, there was a need to define ?elegant? language to be used for higher diction. No doubt the Vedas also played a role. Without definitive guides like P??ini?s grammar, Sanskrit would become corrupt ? something we see in Buddhist Sanskrit texts. To prevent this, a prescriptive tool like P??ini (or the Tolk?ppiyam) is essential. George Hart > On Dec 7, 2014, at 4:32 AM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > > To explain the unique phenomenon physiologically disregarding the Indian context may lead at best to downplaying it, and worse even to a theory of racial difference. Many earlier philologists did not admit the oral transmission in case of large prose texts like the Br?hma?as. Now the fact is accepted. So there was a unique development in India. As belonging to this new conscious generation Professor Houben is very welcome. > > The contrary views are inevitable but the given aesthetic explanation does not explain their non-occurrence in early historical China or Greece. There is no reason to disregard the relatively late emergence of written literature in India which fits in with the phenomenon. > > P??ini's A???dhy?y? is an easy text to remember because of its successfully structured composition. But see Whitney's comments in the 1880s that Thieme had to contradict. The A???dhy?y? was not easy for Whitney and Weber. The actual magnitude in normal language, along with its computer program like compactness and intertwining of the rules, will be apparent from the K??ik? commentary. Normally, that is not got by heart. I did not mention Pata?jali because of his metalinguistic discussions. > > Two more points. The pedagogic need and oral transmission both contributed to the phenomenon. Secondly their continuance in India was most probably caused by both scarcity and perishability of the normal Indian paper that is palm leaf in late medieval India and earlier, perhaps, any leaf which was less durable. Birchbark was expensive for the village scholar. > > I tried to treat the matter more extensively elsewhere. I heartily encourage the dialogue but at the same time can assure that the related problems and issues are of considerable magnitude not accommodable in a forum discussion. > > DB > > > On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 4:31 PM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > Respecfully, I disagree. > > Many generalizations are made about oral literature, but empirical or quantitative evidence to support such assertions is less common. By quantitative evicence, I mean, for example, counting actual volumes of material, analyzing its uses, the relation of comprehension to volume, and so forth. Do we even know, really, the answer to even such a simple question as "what makes a text easy to memorize?" For example, one migh think, prima facie, that the proliferation of very similar sentences and paragraphs, such as we see in the Tripitaka, would lead directly to error. But apparently this extensive repetition (which we also see in sastric texts like the Mahabhasya) was a positive contribution to accurate transmission, not a negative one. Another simple question would be, does the amount of text to be memorized have any impact on accuracy or ease of memorization? Or is the volume of text only related to the amount of time necessary to memorize it? It seems likely that "memory muscles" would get stronger the more a person practiced. > > In short, there are many questions, including ones bordering on neurology, that bear investigation as part of an exploration of the factors affecting memorization. > > The idea that Panini's grammar contains abbreviations etc. simply as a side-effect of oral transmission seems to me to be such an unfounded assertion. We know for a fact that gargantuan amounts of literature were memorized by Vaidika brahmanas and Buddhist monks. By comparison, the Astadhyayi is a tiny text. I would hypothesize that in a cultural milieu that supported memorization and where students had sufficient resources of time, memorizing the Astadhyayi was really quite easy. > > My own studies of Panini's system lead me to believe that the various techniques of abbreviation it uses are motivated by a sense of beauty, efficiency, internal coherence and perhaps even intellectual playfulness. Exactly what mathematicians call "elegance ." I think we can ask whether the Astadhyayi's internal concision is not better understood as a product of intensive use by an expert community over a period of time, like a tool becoming smooth in the hand of an artisan. Were mnemotechnical devices not developed so intensively in Paninian grammar because they provided vaiyakaranas with aesthetic pleasure and astonishment, in ancient times as much as today? > > Dominik Wujastyk > > > > On 7 December 2014 at 10:18, Dipak Bhattacharya > wrote: > Wonder but not unimaginable. > > One can be fairly certain that the many characteristic features of the A???dhy?y? , terse prose-- sentences without finite verb, not an essential feature of contemporary ritual s?tras, obsession with brevity (l?ghava), enumerative ie non-explicative definition, almost total absence of argumentation, the abridgement of material worth some thousands of pages of discussion, into a few pages of 4004 s?tras, can be explained only by the postulation of an environment of entirely oral transmission of knowledge. So at a time not later than the 4th century BCE. The ?gvedic teaching and training could not be different. > > The real wonder is that the practice continued even after writing material became available sufficiently. > > > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 10:23 PM, Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: > Would it really be possible that vaidika pandits learn by heart such huge amounts of text, and are able to reproduce them correctly, syllable by syllable and tone by tone? > The following clips demonstrate the predominant orality and memory culture in current Vedic schools. > Among these clips, the second is a proof that at least the group of students studying the Saamaveda on that day (pre-dawn hour) in February 2001 did not use any hidden piece of paper to read the text of their lengthy chants: see what happened to their chant when there is a failure of electricity and the light goes off. > The chanting tradition followed here is that of the rare Ranayaniya school of the Saamaveda. > The fourth clip shows the performance of the Pravadbhaargava saaman earlier studied by the students. > Intended public of these clips: > students in Indology, Indian Studies, Ritual Studies, History of Education, History of Music, Ethnomusicology. > > > vimeo.com/82963699 , > vimeo.com/90023730 , > vimeo.com/90040436 , > vimeo.com/111214428 > > > > Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, > Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Sciences historiques et philologiques, > Sorbonne ? 54, rue Saint-Jacques > CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris ? France. > johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr > https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 16:22:55 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 14 21:52:55 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Orality and memory culture in the transmission of the Vedas: video clips / intended public: students in Indology ... In-Reply-To: <2157D276-010B-49E2-B8A5-98B6988B86C9@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: There are a lot of things in the argument that might require rethinking. It is easy to say what one thinks but the reason must be made clear. Brevity, orality, pedagogy can be related in a causal chain. But just a subjective suggestion in itself avoids causality. DB On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 8:55 PM, George Hart wrote: > This discussion disregards the elephant in the room, in my opinion, and > that is ?why?? I know of no other culture that went to such effort to > describe/prescribe a language ? and we should remember that there were > other systems than P??ini?s. The mindset that produced P??ini and other > grammatical treatises also worked ? and still works ? for Tamil, which has > the *Tolk?ppiyam*, though it?s not as compact as P??ini. If we can > discover why so much effort was devoted to compacting P??ini?s formulations > and why it was preserved so carefully we can gain insight into whether it > was meant to be oral. Surely it is far easier to memorize ?lokas and other > kinds of rhythmical language than P??ini?s s?tras ? I do not believe their > brevity has anything to do with memorization (I remember Ingalls once > remarked on this). I?m not convinced by the writing-materials argument > either. P??ini was impelled by a need for brevity, completeness and > correctness, much as a computer programmer is. Everyone knows the ?loka > about how a grammarian rejoices more if he can reduce the length of a s?tra > by one syllable than he does if he has a son. Isn?t it possible that > P??ini was motivated by a desire for a kind of perfect elegance and nothing > more? But that still begs the question of ?why.? > > Perhaps it would be germane to look at the linguistic situation of N. > India in P??ini?s time. It?s hardly my field, but I would guess that Vedic > Sanskrit was long since extinct as a spoken language and that everyday > speech consisted of various sorts of Prakrits, Pali, and the like. Here, > the diglossia of modern Tamil may provide some insight. Spoken Tamil is > about as far from written Tamil as Prakrit/Pali is from Sanskrit. Yet even > though people do not speak it normally, formal written Tamil is cultivated > assiduously and people all learn it. It is used in many venues ? political > speeches, pur??a movies, and most writing. My guess is that in P??ini?s > time, there was a need to define ?elegant? language to be used for higher > diction. No doubt the Vedas also played a role. Without definitive guides > like P??ini?s grammar, Sanskrit would become corrupt ? something we see in > Buddhist Sanskrit texts. To prevent this, a prescriptive tool like P??ini > (or the Tolk?ppiyam) is essential. > > George Hart > > On Dec 7, 2014, at 4:32 AM, Dipak Bhattacharya > wrote: > > To explain the unique phenomenon physiologically disregarding the Indian > context may lead at best to downplaying it, and worse even to a theory of > racial difference. Many earlier philologists did not admit the oral > transmission in case of large prose texts like the Br?hma?as. Now the fact > is accepted. So there *was* a unique development in India. As belonging > to this new conscious generation Professor Houben is very welcome. > > The contrary views are inevitable but the given aesthetic explanation does > not explain their non-occurrence in early historical China or Greece. There > is no reason to disregard the relatively late emergence of written > literature in India which fits in with the phenomenon. > > P??ini's A???dhy?y? is an easy text to remember because of its > successfully structured composition. But see Whitney's comments in the > 1880s that Thieme had to contradict. The A???dhy?y? was not easy for > Whitney and Weber. The actual magnitude in normal language, along with its > computer program like compactness and intertwining of the rules, will be > apparent from the K??ik? commentary. Normally, that is not got by heart. I > did not mention Pata?jali because of his metalinguistic discussions. > > Two more points. The pedagogic need and oral transmission both contributed > to the phenomenon. Secondly their continuance in India was most probably > caused by both scarcity and perishability of the normal Indian paper that > is palm leaf in late medieval India and earlier, perhaps, any leaf which > was less durable. Birchbark was expensive for the village scholar. > > I tried to treat the matter more extensively elsewhere. I heartily > encourage the dialogue but at the same time can assure that the related > problems and issues are of considerable magnitude not accommodable in a > forum discussion. > > DB > > On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 4:31 PM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > >> Respecfully, I disagree. >> >> Many generalizations are made about oral literature, but empirical or >> quantitative evidence to support such assertions is less common. By >> quantitative evicence, I mean, for example, counting actual volumes of >> material, analyzing its uses, the relation of comprehension to volume, and >> so forth. Do we even know, really, the answer to even such a simple >> question as "what makes a text easy to memorize?" For example, one migh >> think, prima facie, that the proliferation of very similar sentences and >> paragraphs, such as we see in the Tripitaka, would lead directly to error. >> But apparently this extensive repetition (which we also see in sastric >> texts like the Mahabhasya) was a positive contribution to accurate >> transmission, not a negative one. Another simple question would be, does >> the amount of text to be memorized have any impact on accuracy or ease of >> memorization? Or is the volume of text only related to the amount of time >> necessary to memorize it? It seems likely that "memory muscles" would get >> stronger the more a person practiced. >> >> In short, there are many questions, including ones bordering on >> neurology, that bear investigation as part of an exploration of the factors >> affecting memorization. >> >> The idea that Panini's grammar contains abbreviations etc. simply as a >> side-effect of oral transmission seems to me to be such an unfounded >> assertion. We know for a fact that gargantuan amounts of literature were >> memorized by Vaidika brahmanas and Buddhist monks. By comparison, the >> Astadhyayi is a tiny text. I would hypothesize that in a cultural milieu >> that supported memorization and where students had sufficient resources of >> time, memorizing the Astadhyayi was really quite easy. >> >> My own studies of Panini's system lead me to believe that the various >> techniques of abbreviation it uses are motivated by a sense of beauty, >> efficiency, internal coherence and perhaps even intellectual playfulness. >> Exactly what mathematicians call "elegance >> ." I think we can ask >> whether the Astadhyayi's internal concision is not better understood as a >> product of intensive use by an expert community over a period of time, like >> a tool becoming smooth in the hand of an artisan. Were mnemotechnical >> devices not developed so intensively in Paninian grammar because they >> provided vaiyakaranas with aesthetic pleasure and astonishment, in ancient >> times as much as today? >> >> Dominik Wujastyk >> >> >> >> On 7 December 2014 at 10:18, Dipak Bhattacharya >> wrote: >> >>> Wonder but not unimaginable. >>> >>> One can be fairly certain that the many characteristic features of the >>> A???dhy?y? , terse prose-- sentences without finite verb, not an essential >>> feature of contemporary ritual s?tras, obsession with brevity (l?ghava), >>> enumerative ie non-explicative definition, almost total absence of >>> argumentation, the abridgement of material worth some thousands of pages of >>> discussion, into a few pages of 4004 s?tras, can be explained only by >>> the postulation of an environment of entirely oral transmission of >>> knowledge. So at a time not later than the 4th century BCE. The ?gvedic >>> teaching and training could not be different. >>> >>> The real wonder is that the practice continued even after writing >>> material became available sufficiently. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 10:23 PM, Jan E.M. Houben >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Would it really be possible that vaidika pandits learn by heart such >>>> huge amounts of text, and are able to reproduce them correctly, syllable by >>>> syllable and tone by tone? >>>> The following clips demonstrate the predominant orality and memory >>>> culture in current Vedic schools. >>>> Among these clips, the second is a proof that at least the group of >>>> students studying the Saamaveda on that day (pre-dawn hour) in February >>>> 2001 did not use any hidden piece of paper to read the text of their >>>> lengthy chants: see what happened to their chant when there is a failure of >>>> electricity and the light goes off. >>>> The chanting tradition followed here is that of the rare Ranayaniya >>>> school of the Saamaveda. >>>> The fourth clip shows the performance of the Pravadbhaargava saaman >>>> earlier studied by the students. >>>> Intended public of these clips: >>>> students in Indology, Indian Studies, Ritual Studies, History of >>>> Education, History of Music, Ethnomusicology. >>>> >>>> >>>> vimeo.com/82963699, >>>> vimeo.com/90023730, >>>> vimeo.com/90040436, >>>> vimeo.com/111214428 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, >>>> Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? >>>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Sciences historiques et philologiques, >>>> Sorbonne ? 54, rue Saint-Jacques >>>> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris ? France. >>>> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Sun Dec 7 17:03:02 2014 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 14 18:03:02 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Orality and memory culture in the transmission of the Vedas: video clips / intended public: students in Indology ... In-Reply-To: <2157D276-010B-49E2-B8A5-98B6988B86C9@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Paul Thieme has treated exactly this subject with the result, if my memory doesn't fail me, that P??ini's motivation - in conformity with late Vedic thought - would have been to formulate a grammatical "truth": Thieme, Paul: Meaning and form of the 'Grammar' of P??ini. Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik 8-9 (1982): 1-34 [= Kleine Schriften 3, 1170-1201] Regards, WS ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. 2014-12-07 16:25 GMT+01:00 George Hart : > This discussion disregards the elephant in the room, in my opinion, and > that is ?why?? I know of no other culture that went to such effort to > describe/prescribe a language ? and we should remember that there were > other systems than P??ini?s. The mindset that produced P??ini and other > grammatical treatises also worked ? and still works ? for Tamil, which has > the *Tolk?ppiyam*, though it?s not as compact as P??ini. If we can > discover why so much effort was devoted to compacting P??ini?s formulations > and why it was preserved so carefully we can gain insight into whether it > was meant to be oral. Surely it is far easier to memorize ?lokas and other > kinds of rhythmical language than P??ini?s s?tras ? I do not believe their > brevity has anything to do with memorization (I remember Ingalls once > remarked on this). I?m not convinced by the writing-materials argument > either. P??ini was impelled by a need for brevity, completeness and > correctness, much as a computer programmer is. Everyone knows the ?loka > about how a grammarian rejoices more if he can reduce the length of a s?tra > by one syllable than he does if he has a son. Isn?t it possible that > P??ini was motivated by a desire for a kind of perfect elegance and nothing > more? But that still begs the question of ?why.? > > Perhaps it would be germane to look at the linguistic situation of N. > India in P??ini?s time. It?s hardly my field, but I would guess that Vedic > Sanskrit was long since extinct as a spoken language and that everyday > speech consisted of various sorts of Prakrits, Pali, and the like. Here, > the diglossia of modern Tamil may provide some insight. Spoken Tamil is > about as far from written Tamil as Prakrit/Pali is from Sanskrit. Yet even > though people do not speak it normally, formal written Tamil is cultivated > assiduously and people all learn it. It is used in many venues ? political > speeches, pur??a movies, and most writing. My guess is that in P??ini?s > time, there was a need to define ?elegant? language to be used for higher > diction. No doubt the Vedas also played a role. Without definitive guides > like P??ini?s grammar, Sanskrit would become corrupt ? something we see in > Buddhist Sanskrit texts. To prevent this, a prescriptive tool like P??ini > (or the Tolk?ppiyam) is essential. > > George Hart > > On Dec 7, 2014, at 4:32 AM, Dipak Bhattacharya > wrote: > > To explain the unique phenomenon physiologically disregarding the Indian > context may lead at best to downplaying it, and worse even to a theory of > racial difference. Many earlier philologists did not admit the oral > transmission in case of large prose texts like the Br?hma?as. Now the fact > is accepted. So there *was* a unique development in India. As belonging > to this new conscious generation Professor Houben is very welcome. > > The contrary views are inevitable but the given aesthetic explanation does > not explain their non-occurrence in early historical China or Greece. There > is no reason to disregard the relatively late emergence of written > literature in India which fits in with the phenomenon. > > P??ini's A???dhy?y? is an easy text to remember because of its > successfully structured composition. But see Whitney's comments in the > 1880s that Thieme had to contradict. The A???dhy?y? was not easy for > Whitney and Weber. The actual magnitude in normal language, along with its > computer program like compactness and intertwining of the rules, will be > apparent from the K??ik? commentary. Normally, that is not got by heart. I > did not mention Pata?jali because of his metalinguistic discussions. > > Two more points. The pedagogic need and oral transmission both contributed > to the phenomenon. Secondly their continuance in India was most probably > caused by both scarcity and perishability of the normal Indian paper that > is palm leaf in late medieval India and earlier, perhaps, any leaf which > was less durable. Birchbark was expensive for the village scholar. > > I tried to treat the matter more extensively elsewhere. I heartily > encourage the dialogue but at the same time can assure that the related > problems and issues are of considerable magnitude not accommodable in a > forum discussion. > > DB > > On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 4:31 PM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > >> Respecfully, I disagree. >> >> Many generalizations are made about oral literature, but empirical or >> quantitative evidence to support such assertions is less common. By >> quantitative evicence, I mean, for example, counting actual volumes of >> material, analyzing its uses, the relation of comprehension to volume, and >> so forth. Do we even know, really, the answer to even such a simple >> question as "what makes a text easy to memorize?" For example, one migh >> think, prima facie, that the proliferation of very similar sentences and >> paragraphs, such as we see in the Tripitaka, would lead directly to error. >> But apparently this extensive repetition (which we also see in sastric >> texts like the Mahabhasya) was a positive contribution to accurate >> transmission, not a negative one. Another simple question would be, does >> the amount of text to be memorized have any impact on accuracy or ease of >> memorization? Or is the volume of text only related to the amount of time >> necessary to memorize it? It seems likely that "memory muscles" would get >> stronger the more a person practiced. >> >> In short, there are many questions, including ones bordering on >> neurology, that bear investigation as part of an exploration of the factors >> affecting memorization. >> >> The idea that Panini's grammar contains abbreviations etc. simply as a >> side-effect of oral transmission seems to me to be such an unfounded >> assertion. We know for a fact that gargantuan amounts of literature were >> memorized by Vaidika brahmanas and Buddhist monks. By comparison, the >> Astadhyayi is a tiny text. I would hypothesize that in a cultural milieu >> that supported memorization and where students had sufficient resources of >> time, memorizing the Astadhyayi was really quite easy. >> >> My own studies of Panini's system lead me to believe that the various >> techniques of abbreviation it uses are motivated by a sense of beauty, >> efficiency, internal coherence and perhaps even intellectual playfulness. >> Exactly what mathematicians call "elegance >> ." I think we can ask >> whether the Astadhyayi's internal concision is not better understood as a >> product of intensive use by an expert community over a period of time, like >> a tool becoming smooth in the hand of an artisan. Were mnemotechnical >> devices not developed so intensively in Paninian grammar because they >> provided vaiyakaranas with aesthetic pleasure and astonishment, in ancient >> times as much as today? >> >> Dominik Wujastyk >> >> >> >> On 7 December 2014 at 10:18, Dipak Bhattacharya >> wrote: >> >>> Wonder but not unimaginable. >>> >>> One can be fairly certain that the many characteristic features of the >>> A???dhy?y? , terse prose-- sentences without finite verb, not an essential >>> feature of contemporary ritual s?tras, obsession with brevity (l?ghava), >>> enumerative ie non-explicative definition, almost total absence of >>> argumentation, the abridgement of material worth some thousands of pages of >>> discussion, into a few pages of 4004 s?tras, can be explained only by >>> the postulation of an environment of entirely oral transmission of >>> knowledge. So at a time not later than the 4th century BCE. The ?gvedic >>> teaching and training could not be different. >>> >>> The real wonder is that the practice continued even after writing >>> material became available sufficiently. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 10:23 PM, Jan E.M. Houben >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Would it really be possible that vaidika pandits learn by heart such >>>> huge amounts of text, and are able to reproduce them correctly, syllable by >>>> syllable and tone by tone? >>>> The following clips demonstrate the predominant orality and memory >>>> culture in current Vedic schools. >>>> Among these clips, the second is a proof that at least the group of >>>> students studying the Saamaveda on that day (pre-dawn hour) in February >>>> 2001 did not use any hidden piece of paper to read the text of their >>>> lengthy chants: see what happened to their chant when there is a failure of >>>> electricity and the light goes off. >>>> The chanting tradition followed here is that of the rare Ranayaniya >>>> school of the Saamaveda. >>>> The fourth clip shows the performance of the Pravadbhaargava saaman >>>> earlier studied by the students. >>>> Intended public of these clips: >>>> students in Indology, Indian Studies, Ritual Studies, History of >>>> Education, History of Music, Ethnomusicology. >>>> >>>> >>>> vimeo.com/82963699, >>>> vimeo.com/90023730, >>>> vimeo.com/90040436, >>>> vimeo.com/111214428 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, >>>> Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? >>>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Sciences historiques et philologiques, >>>> Sorbonne ? 54, rue Saint-Jacques >>>> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris ? France. >>>> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From caf57 at cam.ac.uk Mon Dec 8 09:01:57 2014 From: caf57 at cam.ac.uk (C.A. Formigatti) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 14 09:01:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Orality and memory culture in the transmission of the Vedas: video clips / intended public: students in Indology ... Message-ID: Dear colleagues, It is always very interesting and fruitful to read discussions on this list, they are a very valuable source of knowledge and information on many aspects of South Asian culture. The issue of orality vs literacy has been mentioned many times, but I feel that unfortunately very often the discussion is still centered around a sort of match between the weight of the two aspects in traditional South Asian culture. > To explain the unique phenomenon physiologically disregarding the > Indian context may lead >at best to downplaying it, and worse even to a > theory of racial difference. Many earlier >philologists did not admit > the oral transmission in case of large prose texts like the >Br?hma?as. > Now the fact is accepted. So there was a unique development in India. > As >belonging to this new conscious generation Professor Houben is very > welcome. True that many early philologists couldn't believe the astonishing feats of Brahmin, even now when talking to non-Indologist colleagues often they are skeptical about it. Yet I would be more cautious saying that "there was a unique development in India." > The contrary views are inevitable but the given aesthetic explanation > does not explain >their non-occurrence in early historical China or > Greece. There is no reason to disregard >the relatively late emergence > of written literature in India which fits in with the phenomenon. First of all, there are many different types of oral transmission. It is simply not true that there was no occurrence of oral transmission of longer texts in early historical Greece. On the contrary, the Homeric epic literature?including not only the Iliad and the Odyssey, but all literature of the nostoi genre, unfortunately transmitted to us only fragmentarily?was orally transmitted. It was, as I wrote, a different type of oral transmission (big chunks of formulae and whole episodes, though probably not verbatim), but still oral. We simply do not know more about it (i.e. to which extent the texts where exactly committed to memory verbatim) because these texts have been fixed in writing relatively early, during Peisistratos time, between 561 and 527 BCE. I wouldn't be so sure and say that oral transmission of long texts is a feature almost exclusive of Indian culture, without fearing of making a mistake similar to the one made by the early philologists. And moreover, the "late emergence of writing" in South Asia is in fact not so late, if compared to the introduction of writing in many other cultures around the world. In fact, it seems to me that it was introduced relatively early. > Two more points. The pedagogic need and oral transmission both > contributed to the >phenomenon. Secondly their continuance in India was > most probably caused by both scarcity >and perishability of the normal > Indian paper that is palm leaf in late medieval India and >earlier, > perhaps, any leaf which was less durable. Birchbark was expensive for > the village >scholar. Are we really sure that palm leaf was scarce "in late medieval India and earlier, perhaps, any leaf which was less durable," or that "Birchbark was expensive for the village scholar"? Do we have reliable quantitative data about this topic? And if these materials were that scarce, how can we account for the many millions of South Asian manuscripts that have come down to us? (I will not deal again here with the topic of the number of South Asian manuscripts still extant, it would be too long). Moreover, since these materials are so perishable, we simply cannot know more about the number of manuscripts circulating in early and medieval South Asia, and therefore I would be again very cautious in making any statement about the primarily oral character of South Asian culture. It seems to me that it would be more fruitful to try and ask the question differently: to which extent oral and written culture were concurring and intertwined in early and Medieval South Asia? Was the oral transmission of texts at some point crystallized and reserved for certain types of texts (for instance, the Vedic corpus and grammatical suutras)? > I tried to treat the matter more extensively elsewhere. I heartily > encourage the dialogue >but at the same time can assure that the > related problems and issues are of considerable >magnitude not > accommodable in a forum discussion. I agree completely with Prof. Bhattacharya on this point. Camillo Formigatti From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Dec 8 12:33:07 2014 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 14 07:33:07 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] "I am Sanskrit" an interesting article on Sanskrit in Indian Express Message-ID: Dear Friends, Here is a link to an interesting article on the disputed situation of Sanskrit in India today. http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/i-am-sanskrit/99/ -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 13:38:54 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 14 14:38:54 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Orality and memory culture in the transmission of the Vedas: video clips / intended public: students in Indology ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8 December 2014 at 10:01, C.A. Formigatti wrote: ?[citing D Bhattacharya]? > > Two more points. The pedagogic need and oral transmission both >> contributed to the >phenomenon. Secondly their continuance in India was >> most probably caused by both scarcity >and perishability of the normal >> Indian paper that is palm leaf in late medieval India and >earlier, >> perhaps, any leaf which was less durable. Birchbark was expensive for the >> village >scholar. >> > > Are we really sure that palm leaf was scarce "in late medieval India and > earlier, perhaps, any leaf which was less durable," or that "Birchbark was > expensive for the village scholar"? Do we have reliable quantitative data > about this topic? And if these materials were that scarce, how can we > account for the many millions of South Asian manuscripts that have come > down to us? (I will not deal again here with the topic of the number of > South Asian manuscripts still extant, it would be too long). Moreover, > since these materials are so perishable, we simply cannot know more about > the number of manuscripts circulating in early and medieval South Asia, and > therefore I would be again very cautious in making any statement about the > primarily oral character of South Asian culture. It seems to me that it > would be more fruitful to try and ask the question differently: to which > extent oral and written culture were concurring and intertwined in early > and Medieval South Asia? Was the oral transmission of texts at some point > crystallized and reserved for certain types of texts (for instance, the > Vedic corpus and grammatical suutras)? > ?This point of Prof. Bhattacharya struck me immediately too. Palm leaf is more durable than paper, at least when treated (oiled) in the traditional manner and stored reasonably well. The worst writing material is machine-made bleached paper?, that started to be used for some Indian MSS in the early 19th century. That deteriorates very quickly, and the examples in libraries today are normally brown and crisp round the edges and extremely brittle. By contrast, some palm-leaf manuscripts 1000 years old are almost as good as the day they were made (Wellcome MSS Indic ?.1, ?.2, for example). Of course some palm-leaf MSS are in very poor shape too. But the older writing supports used in S. Asia were sometimes more durable than later ones. Birch bark is an exception. Best, Dominik Wujastyk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 14:30:02 2014 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 14 15:30:02 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hinduism's latest addition - The Goddess of Rape-victims Message-ID: http://www.hindustantimes.com/lifestyle/books/priya-s-shakti-new-indian-comic-with-rape-survivor-super-hero/article1-1294490.aspx All the best, Patrick McCartney PhD Candidate School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Australia: +61 487 398 354 Germany: +49 157 5469 4045 - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile * - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZHJVkhVBPc&list=UUfGaSWlfxH4er_TsQBmSINQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From caf57 at cam.ac.uk Mon Dec 8 16:25:15 2014 From: caf57 at cam.ac.uk (C.A. Formigatti) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 14 16:25:15 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Orality and memory culture in the transmission of the Vedas: video clips / intended public: students in Indology ... In-Reply-To: <3216671418040787@web30o.yandex.ru> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Since I have raised a couple of questions about the status of orality and literacy in ancient, medieval and modern South Asia that sparked a lively and interesting discussion, i would like to clarify a couple of points, in order not to be misunderstood. On 2014-12-08 12:13, Viktoria Lysenko wrote: > Colleagues, > In my opinion, the question is not about perishable nature of some > materials or about aesthetic experience as factors that contributed to > the development of orality in India, it is about religious or > sacrificial status pertaining to the exact transmission of sound > vibrations ( ritual exegesis, phonetics and grammar were developed to > realize this task), and in this respect India is unique. As far as I know I completely agree, in this respect South Asian culture is unique. But I would like to stress the "as far as I know," for I am not an expert in all cultural traditions all over the world, and it might well be that during the last four millennia and across the whole world other people belonging to other cultures (of which I know nothing), might have developed an oral culture similar or comparable to the South Asian, and we are not just aware of it. But maybe I'm wrong precisely because of my ignorance. > As for epic > oral traditions like that developed in Greece etc.it is quite another > story, they cannot be compared with the transmission of the Vedic > texts. > There are many excellent works about this subject (F.Staal, H.Scharfe, > H.Falk). Well, that was exactly my point as well. The advocates of the importance, nay predominance of oral culture in South Asia focus almost always and almost exclusively on one type of oral transmission, i.e. the memorization of whole texts, be they versified (like the Vedic hymns or the verses of the six dar'sanas) or in prose (like the grammatical suutras). However, epic literature and Buddhist literature clearly bear traces of an oral transmission akin to the one of the Greek epics, i.e. based on formulae and not on whole texts (this point has already been noted by Scharfe in his 2002 book, p. 19-20). It was this type of oral transmission I was referring to. On 2014-12-08 10:04, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > I have no time to go into detail. Suffice it to say there has been > misunderstanding. Oral composition by Homer is not denied. Even > Confucius betrays transition from an erstwhile oral literature. But > did scientific treatises of the potential maginitude of Paa.nini's > work come out in the sister civilizations? That was my point. As I have tried to explain, that was not what I intended. I just wanted to stress the fact that this type of oral transmission is not the only one present in South Asia, and we have to disambiguate. > True that palmleaves were available in plenty in late medieval times. I > wanted to point to their relative perishability and probable late > invention of the processing towards durability. Note that; Sakuntalaa > wrote to her lover on lotus leaf with her nail. > I admit that writing was scarce in all civilizations till the end of > the earely medieval period. Note Walter Scott's description of the > embarrassment of even priests, not to speak of kings, when writing was > called for. Jews keeping business records had to come to rescue. > This was universal. India had something more. > Best > DB Again, I would like to stress the fact that we have no reliable data about literacy rate and diffusion of manuscripts for any period of South Asian history. I believe moreover that one has to distinguish between ephemeral writings like letters (already mentioned by Nearchos, if I'm not wrong), and other types of manuscript documents (be they literary or official documents). I am well aware that orality played and still plays a major role in South Asian culture, and I do not want to deny it, but I also have the strong feeling that the impact and importance first of manuscript culture, then of print culture in South Asia is very often downplayed. The estimates of the number of South Asian manuscripts are in the millions, see for instance the recently published article by D. Wujastyk on "Indian Manuscripts" (in J?rg Quenzer et al., Manuscript Cultures: Mapping the Field," Studies in Manuscript Cultures, volume 1, Berlin: De Gruyter, 2014), where two estimates are given: "The National Mission for Manuscripts in New Delhi works with a conservative figure of seven million manuscripts, and its database is approaching two million records. The late Prof. David Pingree, basing his count on a lifetime of academic engagement with Indian manuscripts, estimated that there were thirty million manuscripts, if one counted both those in public and government libraries, and those in private collections." Well, I have to confess that even the more conservative estimate of seven million of manuscripts does not sound to me as the mark of a culture where literacy played a secondary role. But probably my opinion is biased by my own research interests. I am really looking forward to read more opinions and contributions on this topic. Best wishes, Camillo Formigatti From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 19:04:29 2014 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 14 00:34:29 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hinduism's latest addition - The Goddess of Rape-victims Message-ID: Does a new character in a comic constitute an addition to Hinduism? In any case, the character of this comic is well within the framework /formula of goddesses made of deification of sensationally killed non-widow women. These legend-born goddesses or goddesses of mythified legends are huge in number. One of the most well known of them is the goddess Vaasavee Kanyakaa Parameswari having greater significance for the Vaisya community of south India than for others. She immolates heself when a king tries to forcibly marry her. Such goddesses are called pEranTALlu in Telugu and there is a very big number of them in coastal Andhra Pradesh. One difference between the narratives of the living traditions of these goddesses and the present comic under discussion is that there is no death of the victim overtly mentioned here. But going to S'iva and PArvatI can be seen to have a suggestion of that. Regards, Nagaraj Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Mon Dec 8 21:14:56 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 14 16:14:56 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] "I am Sanskrit" an interesting article on Sanskrit in Indian Express In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8D1E14326911950-16DC-2559D@webmail-vm035.sysops.aol.com> Here is a related story. http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/i-am-sanskrit/99/ Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Madhav Deshpande To: indology Sent: Mon, Dec 8, 2014 6:33 am Subject: [INDOLOGY] "I am Sanskrit" an interesting article on Sanskrit in Indian Express Dear Friends, Here is a link to an interesting article on the disputed situation of Sanskrit in India today. http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/i-am-sanskrit/99/ -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Mon Dec 8 23:13:26 2014 From: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk (Rohana Seneviratne) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 14 23:13:26 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Chandamama Sanskrit Archives Message-ID: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B146896@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Dear List, I will be much pleased to know if any of you has got the Chandamama magazine's Sanskrit Archives and is willing to share. A few years ago, the Chandamama archives were available in all of its languages for free download, but after the website (which is currently down) was updated they're no longer there. Somebody has very kindly uploaded to Archive.org the English archives from 1955 to 1985 but Sanskrit ones are literally nowhere to find. Best Wishes, Rohana ------------------------------------------------ Rohana Seneviratne DPhil Student in Sanskrit The Oriental Institute Faculty of Oriental Studies University of Oxford Pusey Lane, Oxford OX1 2LE United Kingdom Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.murugaiyan at wanadoo.fr Tue Dec 9 02:37:33 2014 From: a.murugaiyan at wanadoo.fr (a.murugaiyan) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 14 03:37:33 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eleventh International Workshop on Tamil Epigraphy- programme Message-ID: <5486606D.7070500@wanadoo.fr> Dear colleagues, We are please to forward you the programme of the Eleventh International Workshop on Tamil Epigraphy and we thank you for posting the information. Appasamy Murugaiyan *Appasamy Murugaiyan* EPHE-UMR 7528 Mondes iranien et indien 27 rue Paul-Bert 94204- Ivry-sur-Seine. France -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EPHE.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2566 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tamil-Epig-workshop-Programme-2014.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 260588 bytes Desc: not available URL: From a.murugaiyan at wanadoo.fr Tue Dec 9 02:38:47 2014 From: a.murugaiyan at wanadoo.fr (a.murugaiyan) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 14 03:38:47 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eleventh International Workshop on Tamil Epigraphy- programme Message-ID: <548660B7.8000206@wanadoo.fr> Dear colleagues, We are please to forward you the programme of the Eleventh International Workshop on Tamil Epigraphy and we thank you for posting the information. Appasamy Murugaiyan *Appasamy Murugaiyan* EPHE-UMR 7528 Mondes iranien et indien 27 rue Paul-Bert 94204- Ivry-sur-Seine. France -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.jpe Type: image/jpeg Size: 2566 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tamil-Epig-workshop-Programme-2014.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 260588 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rospatt at berkeley.edu Tue Dec 9 15:58:25 2014 From: rospatt at berkeley.edu (Alexander von Rospatt) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 14 07:58:25 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] UC Berkeley Shinjo Ito Postdoctoral Fellowship in Buddhist Studies, 2015-2016 Message-ID: <374CD771-7CD8-4E30-B4DC-23ABE9F985CB@berkeley.edu> Dear Colleagues, please note the posting of the following PostDoc fellowship in Buddhist Studies at UC Berkeley, including the deadline Friday, January 30, 2015, and the need to submit paper rather than electronic applications. Many thanks, Alexander von Rospatt ???????? Alexander von Rospatt, Professor Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies Group in Buddhist Studies, Director University of California 7233 Dwinelle Hall # 2540 Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 USA Phone: +1-510-6421610 Fax: +1-510-6432959 Email: rospatt at berkeley.edu http://sseas.berkeley.edu/people/faculty/alexander-von-rospatt ---------------- UC Berkeley Shinjo Ito Postdoctoral Fellowship in Buddhist Studies, 2015-2016 With the generous support of the Shinnyo?en Foundation, the Program in Buddhist Studies at UC Berkeley is pleased to invite applications for a one-year postdoctoral research-teaching fellowship. The term of the appointment is July 1, 2015, to June 30, 2016, with the possibility of a one-year renewal. The Fellowship is intended to foster the academic careers of recent Ph.D.'s, providing time to pursue their research along with the opportunity to gain teaching experience. Fellows are expected to teach two courses per year under the auspices of the Group in Buddhist Studies. (At least one course will be at the undergraduate level.) In addition, Fellows will give a public lecture on their research as part of the Center for Buddhist Studies Colloquium Series, and they are expected to take part in regular Center for Buddhist Studies events and workshops. We particularly welcome applicants whose research and teaching interests complement areas covered by Berkeley's Buddhist Studies faculty. Fellows will be provided with office space, library privileges and a salary of approximately $50,000 that comes with benefits. Applicants must have their doctoral degrees in hand by June 30, 2015, and must be no more than six years out of their doctorate. Candidates who do not yet hold a Ph.D. but expect to by June 30, 2015, should supply a letter from their home institution confirming their schedule to completion. Applicants whose teaching and research interests are primarily in the area of Japanese Buddhism should apply to the Shinjo Ito Postdoctoral Fellowship in Japanese Buddhism , administered through the Center for Japanese Studies at UC Berkeley, rather than to the Shinjo Ito Fellowship in Buddhist Studies. Applicants whose teaching and research interests are primarily in the area of Chinese Buddhism should apply to the Sheng Yen Postdoctoral Fellowship in Chinese Buddhism , also administered through the Center for Buddhist Studies at UC Berkeley, rather than to the Shinjo Ito Fellowship in Buddhist Studies. Applicants should submit the following materials: Curriculum vitae Graduate school transcripts A personal statement of no more than 2000 words outlining previous research (including dissertation), the research the applicant will undertake during the term of the fellowship, future professional goals, as well as any other information deemed relevant to the application A writing sample A two- to four-page statement of teaching interests, along with two brief course proposals (with optional syllabi) of courses they propose to teach for the Group in Buddhist Studies (Note: UC Berkeley courses normally meet a total of three or four hours per week throughout a fourteen-week semester) Three letters of recommendation Application Deadline and Notification of Award All application materials, including letters of recommendation, must be postmarked on or before Friday, January 30, 2015. Faxed or emailed applications will not be accepted. Only complete applications will be considered. It is the applicant's responsibility to ensure that all documentation is complete and that referees submit their letters of recommendation by the closing date. Awards will be announced in March, 2015. Send all materials to: Postdoctoral Fellowship in Buddhist Studies Group in Buddhist Studies University of California, Berkeley 3413 Dwinelle Hall, #2230 Berkeley, CA 94720-2230 U.S.A. For more information about Buddhist Studies at Berkeley, please visit http://buddhiststudies.berkeley.edu . The Shinnyo-en Foundation is the secular, philanthropic arm of the Shinnyo-en Order that supports educational programs. UC Berkeley is an affirmative action/equal opportunity employer and educator. Women, minorities, and international candidates are especially encouraged to apply. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 15:22:49 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 14 16:22:49 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Postdoc for Cosmopolitanism in Science project In-Reply-To: <2d4375ec5dc6ff29d727d783007a32a0bb9.20141210151905@mail194.atl21.rsgsv.net> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Cosmopolitanism and the Local Date: 10 December 2014 at 16:19 Subject: Postdoc for Cosmopolitanism in Science project View this email in your browser [image: Facebook] Facebook [image: Twitter] Twitter [image: Website] Website Cosmopolitanism and the Local in Science and Nature is hiring a Postdoc. *Please help us spread the word in your communities! * *Postdoctoral Fellowship Science and Technology Studies (STS) / History and Philosophy of Science, Technology, Medicine (HPSTM)* University of King?s College / Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS Duration: 1 year, with option to renew for second year pending budget and project restrictions and requirements Application Deadline: Monday March 2 2015 The University of King?s College and Dalhousie University announce a postdoctoral fellowship award in Science and Technology Studies (STS)/ History and Philosophy of Science, Technology and Medicine (HPSTM), associated with the SSHRC Partnership Development Grant, ?Cosmopolitanism and the Local in Science and Nature: Creating an East/West Partnership,? a partnership development between institutions in Canada, India and Southeast Asia aimed at establishing an East/West research network on ?Cosmopolitanism? in science. The project closely examines the ideas, processes and negotiations that inform the development of science and scientific cultures within an increasingly globalized landscape. A detailed description of the project can be found at: www.CosmoLocal.org . *Funding and Duration:* The position provides a base salary equivalent to $35,220 plus benefits (EI, CPP, Medical and Dental), and with the possibility of augmenting the salary through teaching or other awards, depending on the host department. The fellow would be entitled to benefits offered by University of King?s College or Dalhousie University. The successful applicant will begin their 12-month appointment between April 1st and July 1st, 2015, subject to negotiation and candidate?s schedule. Contingent on budget and project requirements, the fellowship may be extended for a second year with an annual increase as per institutional standards. *Eligibility: * The appointment will be housed at University of King?s College and/or in one of the departments of the Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences at Dalhousie University. The successful applicant is expected to have completed a Ph.D. in STS, HPS or a cognate field, within the last five years and before taking up the fellowship. Please note that the Postdoctoral Fellowship can only be held at Dalhousie University in the six years following completion of his or her PhD. For example a person who finished his or her PhD in 2010 is eligible to be a Postdoctoral Fellow until December 2016. In addition to carrying out independent or collaborative research under the supervision of one or more of the Cosmopolitanism co-applicants, the successful candidate will be expected to take a leadership role in the Cosmopolitanism project, to actively coordinate the development of the project, and participate in its activities as well as support networking and outreach. International candidates need a work permit and SIN. *Research:* While the research topic is open and we encourage applications from a wide range of subfields, we particularly welcome candidates with expertise and interest in the topics addressed in the Cosmopolitanism project. The candidate will be expected to work under the supervision of one of the Cosmopolitanism co-applicants. Information on each is available on the ?About? page of the project?s website (www.CosmoLocal.org ). *Application:* Full applications will contain: 1. Cover letter that includes a description of current research projects, 2. Research plan for post-doctoral work. Include how the proposed research fits within the Cosmopolitanism project?s scope, and which co-applicant with whom you wish to work. 3. Academic CV, 4. Writing sample, 5. Names and contact information of three referees. Applications can be submitted in either hardcopy or emailed as PDF documents: Hardcopy: Dr. Gordon McOuat Cosmopolitanism and the Local Project University of King?s College 6350 Coburg Road Halifax, NS. B3H 2A1 CANADA Email: situsci at dal.ca *Deadline:* Applications must be received by Monday, March 2 2015. Further questions about the project and the application procedure should be directed to: Dr. Gordon McOuat, History of Science and Technology Programme, University of King?s College gmcouat at dal.ca and/or Dr. Letitia Meynell, Department of Philosophy, Dalhousie University letitia.meynell at dal.ca Dalhousie University and the University of King?s College are Employment Equity/Affirmative Action employers. The universities encourage applications from qualified Aboriginal peoples, persons with a disability, racially visible persons, and women. *Copyright ? 2014 Cosmopolitanism and the Local SSHRC Partnership Development Grant, All rights reserved.* You are receiving this email because you have subscribed to our mailing list. To unsubscribe, click the "unsubscribe" link below. You can follow our Twitter @cosmolocal and Cosmopolitanism and the Local Facebook Page too. *Our mailing address is:* Cosmopolitanism and the Local SSHRC Partnership Development Grant 6350 Coburg Rd Halifax, NS B3H 2A1 Canada Add us to your address book unsubscribe from this list update subscription preferences [image: Email Marketing Powered by MailChimp] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rdamron at berkeley.edu Wed Dec 10 23:02:09 2014 From: rdamron at berkeley.edu (Ryan Damron) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 14 15:02:09 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Vandor_on_the_ga=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8D=C4=AB?= Message-ID: Dear all, Would anyone happen to have a pdf of Ivan Vandor's article on the ga??? wooden gong? I am far from my home institution, which has only a bound copy of the needed journal. Here are the details: Vandor, Ivan. "The Gandi: Musical Instrument of Buddhist India Recently Identified in a Tibetan Monastery." The World of Music 17 (1975): 24-27 Much thanks, Ryan Ryan Damron Doctoral Candidate Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California, Berkeley 7233 Dwinelle Hall Berkeley, CA 94720-2520 rdamron at berkeley.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 14:20:06 2014 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 14 09:20:06 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Thaikat Mana Message-ID: Can any list members supply any contact information for Thaikat Mana. Address? Phone number? etc. Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vanessa.sasson at mcgill.ca Thu Dec 11 14:26:46 2014 From: vanessa.sasson at mcgill.ca (Vanessa Sasson, Dr.) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 14 14:26:46 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] change of email address Message-ID: <874170DD8E9303449A381770C0E8C26F1BFB48EF@exmbx2010-8.campus.MCGILL.CA> Hello, Would it be possible to change my email address from this one to: v.sasson at marianopolis.edu. Thank you, Vanessa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swright at nalandauniv.com Thu Dec 11 14:52:49 2014 From: swright at nalandauniv.com (Samuel Wright) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 14 20:22:49 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the word 'vipra'? Message-ID: Dear List Members, Can anyone point me to any studies dealing with the uses/meanings of the term 'vipra'? While it is usually glossed as 'br?hma?a', I'm wondering if there were any semantic changes in this term, particularly in the 16th/17th centuries. Keith and MacDonnell's 'Vedic Index' (page 302, vol. 2) provides some very early glosses such as "inspired singer" but then it is noted that "[i]n the epic style it comes to mean no more than 'Brahmin.'" Yet, Medhatithi comments on Manusmrti 3.199: vipragraha?am anuv?datv?t k?atriy?dipradar?an?rtham | I'm also aware of Staal's very brief remarks in his article 'Sanskrit and Sanskritization' (pg. 267). Any suggestions would be appreciate on why the word 'vipra' might be used as opposed to 'dvija' or 'br?hma?a' as well as which studies on the word are available, if any. Many thanks, Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 18:53:10 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 14 19:53:10 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Thaikat Mana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Harry, the Thaikat Mooss family, mainly Ravi Mooss, maintains the website http://mooss.com The family lives in Anandapuram, near Trissur. Best, Dominik On 11 December 2014 at 15:20, Harry Spier wrote: > Can any list members supply any contact information for Thaikat Mana. > Address? Phone number? etc. > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 21:04:00 2014 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 14 16:04:00 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the word 'vipra'? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Sam, 'vipra' is- a well-attested word in Vedic, starting with the Rigveda. It has a solid Avestan cognate, 'vifra', with a similar semantic range as in Vedic: 'trembling, shaking, inspired, ecstatic.' Among its many Indo-European cognates is Latin 'vibrare' [to vibrate], as well as English 'wipe.' In the RV 'vipra' is frequently associated with nouns that are more or less synonyms with the term 'Brahmin': e.g., rsi and kavi. In my view, 'vipra' is a word that is rooted in the earliest cultural strata in the RV that preserve memory of Central Asian shamanism. See Jan Gonda: *The Vision of the Vedic Poets.* This book's Index will steer you toward useful discussions of this word. See also Louis Renou: *Etudes sur le vocabulaire de Rgveda* [see index des mots etudies], as well as Renou's EVP I [index of words]. There is also useful discussion in J.W. Hauer: *Die Anfaenge der Yoga Praxis im Alten Indien [see Sachregister 'vipra']. I can't help you with 16th-17th century evidence. I hope that this is helpful. Best wishes, George Thompson On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Samuel Wright wrote: > Dear List Members, > > Can anyone point me to any studies dealing with the uses/meanings of the > term 'vipra'? While it is usually glossed as 'br?hma?a', I'm wondering if > there were any semantic changes in this term, particularly in the 16th/17th > centuries. > > Keith and MacDonnell's 'Vedic Index' (page 302, vol. 2) provides some very > early glosses such as "inspired singer" but then it is noted that "[i]n the > epic style it comes to mean no more than 'Brahmin.'" > > Yet, Medhatithi comments on Manusmrti 3.199: > > vipragraha?am anuv?datv?t k?atriy?dipradar?an?rtham | > > I'm also aware of Staal's very brief remarks in his article 'Sanskrit and > Sanskritization' (pg. 267). > > Any suggestions would be appreciate on why the word 'vipra' might be used > as opposed to 'dvija' or 'br?hma?a' as well as which studies on the word > are available, if any. > > Many thanks, > Sam > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Naomi.Appleton at ed.ac.uk Fri Dec 12 10:22:30 2014 From: Naomi.Appleton at ed.ac.uk (APPLETON Naomi) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 14 10:22:30 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Khyentse Foundation award for dissertation in Buddhist Studies Message-ID: <1AAF6299-FB30-4561-A7CD-E9D2FC3D369E@ed.ac.uk> Dear Colleagues, We are nearing the deadline for nominating candidates for the new Khyentse Foundation Award for Outstanding PhD Dissertation in Buddhist Studies. PhDs submitted within Europe in the English language during the academic years 2012-13 and 2013-14 are eligible. Please see full details below. This is a great opportunity to support and encourage a promising junior scholar. Please circulate the details widely and consider nominating a student at your institution. With best wishes, Naomi -------------------------------- Dr Naomi Appleton Chancellor's Fellow in Religious Studies School of Divinity, University of Edinburgh naomi.appleton at ed.ac.uk http://naomiappleton.wordpress.com http://storyofstoryinsouthasia.wordpress.com Twitter: @JatakaStories NEW AWARD FOR BUDDHIST ACADEMICS IN EUROP SEEKS NOMINATIONS December 31 Deadline to Nominate Candidates for Khyentse Foundation Award for Outstanding PhD Dissertation in Buddhist Studies (San Francisco, December 8, 2014) ? In July of 2014, Khyentse Foundation, a nonprofit organization that supports the study and practice of Buddhism, announced the establishment of its Award for Outstanding Dissertations in Buddhist Studies. The deadline for nominations is December 31, 2014. The award will be presented to the best PhD dissertation in the field of Buddhist Studies written in Europe, including the UK, that was published during the previous two academic years. The dissertation must be based on original research in the relevant primary language, and it should significantly advance understanding of the subject or Buddhist scriptures studied. The dissertation must be written in English. The award of US$8,000 is intended to enable the recipient to further his or her research. Accredited institutions that offer PhD programs in Buddhist Studies or Religious Studies in any European country are invited to nominate one dissertation that was completed during the academic year 2012-13 or 2013-14. Nominations must include four separate documents: - Letter of recommendation by a member of the faculty and/or the chair of the department or institution - Summary of the dissertation in English (not more than 2 pages) - One representative chapter of the dissertation - Full contact details for the department and for the author of the dissertation These documents should be submitted by email to jun at khyentsefoundation.org. A five-person committee will select three dissertations to be read in their entirety by all committee members. The result of the competition will be announced by June 30, 2015. If circumstances permit, the recipient of the award will be invited to give a lecture based on his or her dissertation at an institution selected by Khyentse Foundation. Calendar Oct. 1-Dec. 31, 2014 Nominations accepted Feb. 28, 2015 Three dissertations selected May 15, 2015 Winning dissertation selected June 30, 2015 Winner announced June 30, 2016 Invitation to submit nominations for the next award Khyentse Foundation sponsors a similar award for dissertations written in Asia. The recipient of the Asian award for 2014 is Mr. Chao Tung Ming, who received his PhD in Philosophy from National Taiwan University in 2011. He won the award for his thesis on the Chinese Yog?c?ra school of Buddhism. The KF Award for Outstanding PhD Dissertation will be awarded annually, alternating between Asia and Europe. Khyentse Foundation is an international 501(c)3 nonprofit organization founded in 2001 by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche. The foundation supports individuals and institutions engaged in the practice and study of Buddhism, with beneficiaries in 30 countries. In the past 10 years, the foundation has offered more than US$7 million in grants, directly affecting the lives of people around the world. Projects funded include a chair of Buddhist studies at the University of California at Berkeley, the digitization of the entire Tibetan Buddhist scriptural canon, endowments for traditional monastic colleges in Asia, a worldwide scholarship program, and numerous other innovative initiatives. Learn more about Khyentse Foundation and Dzongsar Khyentse?s activities at khyentsefoundation.org. CONTACT: Jun Xie jun at khyentsefoundation.org Scholarship Committee Noa Jones noa at khyentsefoundation.org Communications Director The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sat Dec 13 08:54:20 2014 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 14 08:54:20 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Uma Shankar Sharma 'Rishi' Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0374C04AA@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Dear colleagues, Might any of you have information regarding the background, life and career of Uma Shankar Sharma 'Rishi'', reader of Sanskrit at Patna and author of an extensive Hindi commentary on the Sarvadar?anasamgraha among other works? with thanks in advance, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________________ From ambapradeep at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 05:08:34 2014 From: ambapradeep at gmail.com (Amba Kulkarni) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 14 10:38:34 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Course Announcement Message-ID: Dear List, The admission process for the One Year PG Diploma in Sanskrit Computational Linguistics at the Department of Sanskrit Studies, University of Hyderabad has begun. For those interested, more details are available at http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/~sanskrit/pgdip-portal/index.php. Thanks, Amba Kulkarni -- ? ?? ?????: ?????? ????? ??????: ll Let noble thoughts come to us from every side. - Rig Veda, I-89-i. Assoc Prof. and Head Department of Sanskrit Studies University of Hyderabad Prof. C.R. Rao Road Hyderabad-500 046 (91) 040 23133802(off) http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/scl http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/faculty/amba -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zysk at hum.ku.dk Tue Dec 16 09:51:01 2014 From: zysk at hum.ku.dk (Kenneth Gregory Zysk) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 14 09:51:01 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Pingree's_Jyoti=E1=B8=A5=C5=9B=C4=81stra._Astral_and_Mathematical_Literature._A_History_of_Indian_Literature._Vo._6.4?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I should appreciate it if someone could send me a scan of David Pingree?s Jyoti???stra. Astral and Mathematical Literature. A History of Indian Literature. Vo. 6.4. Best, Ken Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil Head of Indology Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10, DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Ph: +45 3532 8951 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zysk at hum.ku.dk Tue Dec 16 10:06:36 2014 From: zysk at hum.ku.dk (Kenneth Gregory Zysk) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 14 10:06:36 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Pingree's_Jyoti=E1=B8=A5=C5=9B=C4=81stra._Astral_and_Mathematical_Literature._A_History_of_Indian_Literature._Vo._6.4?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Manu and Bill Mak, Many thanks for the quick reply to my request. All the best, Ken Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil Head of Indology Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10, DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Ph: +45 3532 8951 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk From: Manu Francis [mailto:manufrancis at gmail.com] Sent: 16 December 2014 10:56 To: Kenneth Gregory Zysk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Pingree's Jyoti???stra. Astral and Mathematical Literature. A History of Indian Literature. Vo. 6.4 Here it is. Best wishes. Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Kenneth Gregory Zysk > wrote: I should appreciate it if someone could send me a scan of David Pingree?s Jyoti???stra. Astral and Mathematical Literature. A History of Indian Literature. Vo. 6.4. Best, Ken Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil Head of Indology Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10, DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Ph: +45 3532 8951 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jneelis at wlu.ca Tue Dec 16 21:17:57 2014 From: jneelis at wlu.ca (Jason Neelis) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 14 21:17:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Bulletin of the Asia Institute, vol. 24 contents Message-ID: Dear Indology list, Carol Bromberg asks me to please post the contents of the Bulletin of the Asia Institute 24 (December 2014): David Stronach, Solomon at Pasargadae: Some New Perspectives Domenico Agostini, Encountering a Beautiful Maiden: On the Zoroastrian d?n in Comparison with Dante?s Beatrice Yishai Kiel, Gazing through Transparent Objects in Pahlavi and Rabbinic Literature: A Comparative Analysis Dieter Weber, Villages and Estates in the Documents from the Pahlavi Archive: The Geographical Background Michael Shenkar, The Epic of Far?marz in the Panjikent Paintings (2 color plates) ?tienne de la Vaissi?re, Silk, Buddhism and Early Khotanese Chronology: A Note on the Prophecy of the Li Country Harry Falk, Libation Trays from Gandhara Phyllis Granoff, Maitreya and the Y?pa: Some Gandharan Reliefs David Frendo, Sovereignty, Control, and Co-existence in Byzantine-Iranian Relations: An Overview Zsuzsanna Gul?csi, The Prophet?s Seal: A Contextualized Look at the Crystal Sealstone of Mani (216?276 c.e.) in the Biblioth?que nationale de France (2 color plates) Reviews Prods Oktor Skj?rv?, Gnosis and Deliverance: Werner Sundermann's "Speech of the Living Soul" Azarnouche, ed. and trans. Husraw ? Kaw?d?n-? ud R?dag-?: Khosrow fils de Kaw?d et un page (Jenny Rose) Agostini. Ay?dg?r ? J?m?sp?g: Un texte eschatologique zoroastrien (Daniel Sheffield) Jullien, ed. Eastern Christianity: A Crossroads of Cultures (David Frendo) $80 individuals $95 institutions + shipping Contact: bai34 at comcast.net Thank you, Jason Neelis Wilfrid Laurier University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From venetia.ansell at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 09:57:11 2014 From: venetia.ansell at gmail.com (Venetia Kotamraju) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 14 15:27:11 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Darpadalana of Ksemendra Message-ID: In the hope that it might be of use to some scholars here, I wanted to let you know that I have just uploaded a Unicode version of Ksemendra's Darpadalana (based on the Kavya Mala version of the text) at archive.org: https://archive.org/details/DarpadalanaKavyaMala Please let me know if you notice any typos. -- Venetia Kotamraju +91 997230 5440 www.rasalabooks.com www.venetiaansell.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 17:39:52 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 14 18:39:52 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit phone app Message-ID: I recently installed the Sanskrit smartphone app by Liberation Philology , and I'm liking it (no connection with LP). Like having Skt flashcards in your pocket. Any other recommendations for smartphone apps along these lines? Best, Dominik Wujastyk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Tue Dec 23 09:12:56 2014 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 14 10:12:56 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Great article by David Shulman Message-ID: dear Colleagues, There is a wonderful article by David Shulman in the New York Review of Books, a review of Ardor by Roberto Calasso, translated from the Italian by Richard Dixon Farrar, Straus and Giroux: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/jan/08/heart-hinduism/?insrc=toc It is unfortunately behind a pay-wall, but if you can access it, well, you're in for a treat (as usual with Shulman, it sort of goes without saying). best holiday greetings to all, Jonathan -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From catherine.clementin-ojha at ehess.fr Tue Dec 23 11:06:17 2014 From: catherine.clementin-ojha at ehess.fr (Clementin Catherine) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 14 12:06:17 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pandit Sraddha Ram Phillauri In-Reply-To: <2085346027.66431648.1419332516857.JavaMail.zimbra@ehess.fr> Message-ID: <1797623785.66433581.1419332777891.JavaMail.zimbra@ehess.fr> Dear list members, I am looking for a pdf version of Dharma rak?? , a work written in hindustani by Pandit Sraddha Ram Phillauri and published in 1876 from Ludhiana (Jamna Prasad Sahib Dharma Sahayak Press). Best, Catherine Clementin-Ojha, Paris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 08:55:08 2014 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 14 14:25:08 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Traditional/ insider's view of language or dialect status of Prakrits Message-ID: When did the convention of treating Prakrits as 'languages' and not as dialects begin? Was there such an attitude of 'languages' not 'dialects' towards Prakrits in Sanskrit or Prakrit sources of the ancient or medieval period? Is there a work dealing with this issue? Thanks in advance for any references in this direction. -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Dec 24 11:43:37 2014 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 14 06:43:37 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Traditional/ insider's view of language or dialect status of Prakrits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Professor Paturi, If I may direct you to my own book: Deshpande-Sanskrit & Prakrit - Sociolinguistic Issues (Book MLBD 1993). This book discusses many of the questions that you have raised in your message. With best wishes, Madhav Deshpande On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 3:55 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > > When did the convention of treating Prakrits as 'languages' and not as > dialects begin? > > Was there such an attitude of 'languages' not 'dialects' towards Prakrits > in Sanskrit or Prakrit sources of the ancient or medieval period? > > Is there a work dealing with this issue? > > Thanks in advance for any references in this direction. > > -- > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad-500044 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 18:21:23 2014 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 14 10:21:23 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Traditional/ insider's view of language or dialect status of Prakrits. IMPROVED TEXT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The message somehow left my computer as I was changing parts of it. There seems to be a problem with the most recent version of Apple?s Mail program. If one is changing a draft selected for sending with the ?Check grammar with spelling? tool or making changes manually one by one, the draft is sent even after only a part of the changes are made. It is not held back for more changes or for another activation of the ?send? command. Anyway, my intended text was: As far as I could ascertain, there is no word meaning ?dialect? in pre-modern Sanskrit. In ancient and medieval India, the way of looking at linguistic variation and handling it must have been different, at a fundamental level, from the way to which we are now accustomed. In my view, therefore, the questions we should ask before we try to answer the important questions Prof. Paturi has asked should be: (a) Where exactly the difference lay? (b) How did the difference come about? What were its historical causes? I do not have answers to these questions, at least not answers that can be put forward for discussion, but the following article by Dr. Eivind Kahrs could be taken as a starting point: Kahrs, Eivind G(eroge). 1992. "What is a tad-bhava word?? Indo-Iranian Journal 35:225-249. a.a. . > On Dec 24, 2014, at 12:55 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > > > When did the convention of treating Prakrits as 'languages' and not as dialects begin? > > Was there such an attitude of 'languages' not 'dialects' towards Prakrits in Sanskrit or Prakrit sources of the ancient or medieval period? > > Is there a work dealing with this issue? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Thu Dec 25 22:16:56 2014 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 14 22:16:56 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Traditional/ insider's view of language or dialect status of Prakrits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: While there may not have been notions like ?language? and ?dialect? as they are used nowadays, there was the notion of ?correct? and ?incorrect? (apabhra??a) speech, manifested in many different ways; see especially the Mah?bh??ya on this issue. The different use of Sanskrit and Prakrits in Classical drama offers another perspective, with different forms of speech being appropriate for socially different participants in the action; here, linguistic difference is not directly associated with ?correct? and ?incorrect? speech but with social status (although the vid??aka?s use of [stage] Magahi can be correlated with stray statements in the Vedic tradition that associate l-pronunciation, which is characteristic of Magahi, with ?incorrect? speech). What is interesting is that Sanskrit and Prakrit are treated as mutually intelligible. Does that mean they were considered ?dialects? of the ?same language?? Or does it indicate some kind of diglossia? On this whole issue see also the following publication(s): Hock, Hans Henrich, and Rajeshwari Pandharipande. 1976. The sociolinguistic position of Sanskrit in pre-Muslim South Asia. Studies in Language Learning 1:2.106-38. (University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign) Hock, Hans Henrich, and Rajeshwari Pandharipande. 1978. Sanskrit in the pre-Islamic context of South Asia. Aspects of sociolinguistics in South Asia, ed. by B. B. Kachru & S. N. Sridhar, 11-25. (= International Journal of the Sociology of Language, 16.) Ultimately, a clear distinction between ?language? and ?dialects? eludes even modern linguistics, in spite of long discussions of this issue. Best wishes for the New Year, Hans Henrich Hock On 24-Dec-2014, at 2:55, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: When did the convention of treating Prakrits as 'languages' and not as dialects begin? Was there such an attitude of 'languages' not 'dialects' towards Prakrits in Sanskrit or Prakrit sources of the ancient or medieval period? Is there a work dealing with this issue? Thanks in advance for any references in this direction. [https://ssl.gstatic.com/ui/v1/icons/mail/images/cleardot.gif] -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 04:12:06 2014 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 14 09:42:06 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Traditional/ insider's view of language or dialect status of Prakrits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 1.What is interesting is that Sanskrit and Prakrit are treated as mutually intelligible is a good starting point. But one could argue that in an environment of bilingualism or multilingualism too , two different languages can be mutually intelligible. 2. Filtering the value-terms such as correct , incorrect, refined (samskrita), corrupt (apabhrashTa) etc., it can be seen that Sanskrit and the Prakrits were considered always alternative *forms* of each other. Whether Samskrita is considered to have been formed through the samskaraNa= refinement of prAkrita or prAkrita is considered to have been formed through the apabhrams'a = corrupted form of samskrita , the point is that in both the perspectives samskrita and prAkrita are considered to have been formed through the modification of either one from the other. 3. The classical drama's presentation of the two as the social class based mutually intelligible versions of the same language too matches with the above mentioned view under no.2. Thanks to all the colleagues on the list for the references. I shall take the help of all the books. Thanks again. Nagaraj On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 3:46 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: > While there may not have been notions like ?language? and ?dialect? as > they are used nowadays, there was the notion of ?correct? and ?incorrect? > (apabhra??a) speech, manifested in many different ways; see especially the > Mah?bh??ya on this issue. The different use of Sanskrit and Prakrits in > Classical drama offers another perspective, with different forms of speech > being appropriate for socially different participants in the action; here, > linguistic difference is not directly associated with ?correct? and > ?incorrect? speech but with social status (although the vid??aka?s use of > [stage] Magahi can be correlated with stray statements in the Vedic > tradition that associate *l-*pronunciation, which is characteristic of > Magahi, with ?incorrect? speech). What is interesting is that Sanskrit and > Prakrit are treated as mutually intelligible. Does that mean they were > considered ?dialects? of the ?same language?? Or does it indicate some kind > of diglossia? > > On this whole issue see also the following publication(s): > > Hock, Hans Henrich, and Rajeshwari Pandharipande. 1976. The > sociolinguistic position of Sanskrit in pre-Muslim South Asia. *Studies > in Language Learning *1:2.106-38. (University of Illinois, > Urbana-Champaign) > > Hock, Hans Henrich, and Rajeshwari Pandharipande. 1978. Sanskrit in the > pre-Islamic context of South Asia. *Aspects of sociolinguistics in South > Asia*, ed. by B. B. Kachru & S. N. Sridhar, 11-25. (= *International > Journal of the Sociology of Language*, 16.) > > Ultimately, a clear distinction between ?language? and ?dialects? eludes > even modern linguistics, in spite of long discussions of this issue. > > Best wishes for the New Year, > > Hans Henrich Hock > > > On 24-Dec-2014, at 2:55, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > > > When did the convention of treating Prakrits as 'languages' and not as > dialects begin? > > Was there such an attitude of 'languages' not 'dialects' towards Prakrits > in Sanskrit or Prakrit sources of the ancient or medieval period? > > Is there a work dealing with this issue? > > Thanks in advance for any references in this direction. > > -- > Prof.Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad-500044 > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Fri Dec 26 12:02:12 2014 From: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk (Rohana Seneviratne) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 14 12:02:12 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Dharm=C4=81nubandhi=C5=9Blokacaturda=C5=9B=C4=AB?= Message-ID: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B146C41@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Dear List, I am looking for the Dharm?nubandhi?lokacaturda?? by ?e?ak???a, which was published in 1927 as the No. 22 under the Princess of Wales Sarasavati Bhavana series. The usual places we find such texts do not seem to have it. I will be very much grateful if anybody would like to share with me a PDF of it. Thank you very much in advance. Best Wishes, Rohana ------------------------------------------------ Rohana Seneviratne DPhil Student in Sanskrit The Oriental Institute Faculty of Oriental Studies University of Oxford Pusey Lane, Oxford OX1 2LE United Kingdom Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Dec 26 12:22:07 2014 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 14 07:22:07 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Fwd:__Dharm=C4=81nubandhi=C5=9Blokacaturda=C5=9B=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Madhav Deshpande Date: Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Dharm?nubandhi?lokacaturda?? To: Rohana Seneviratne Hello Rohana, The world cat shows that the University of Iowa and Chicago libraries have this item. Also the University of California (Berkeley) library, since Hathi Trust has digitized it from there, though it is not available for downloading. I could order it on interlibrary loan, but I am leaving for India on Jan 5 and will be there till March 16. In case you cannot get it from any other source, let me know in March. But if you do get a pdf from some source, do forward it to me. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 7:02 AM, Rohana Seneviratne < rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > Dear List, > > > I am looking for the Dharm?nubandhi?lokacaturda?? by ?e?ak???a, which > was published in 1927 as the No. 22 under the Princess of Wales > Sarasavati Bhavana series. The usual places we find such texts do not seem > to have it. I will be very much grateful if anybody would like to share with > me a PDF of it. > > Thank you very much in advance. > > Best Wishes, > Rohana > ------------------------------------------------ > Rohana Seneviratne > DPhil Student in Sanskrit > The Oriental Institute > Faculty of Oriental Studies > University of Oxford > Pusey Lane, Oxford > OX1 2LE > United Kingdom > > Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk > Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 17:03:12 2014 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 14 22:33:12 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 23, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I need Katyayan Srauta sutra by H G Ranade. Rupali Mokashi On 26-Dec-2014 10:30 pm, wrote: > Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to > indology at list.indology.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > indology-request at list.indology.info > > You can reach the person managing the list at > indology-owner at list.indology.info > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Traditional/ insider's view of language or dialect status > of Prakrits. IMPROVED TEXT (Ashok Aklujkar) > 2. Re: Traditional/ insider's view of language or dialect status > of Prakrits (Hock, Hans Henrich) > 3. Re: Traditional/ insider's view of language or dialect status > of Prakrits (Nagaraj Paturi) > 4. Dharm?nubandhi?lokacaturda?? (Rohana Seneviratne) > 5. Fwd: Dharm?nubandhi?lokacaturda?? (Madhav Deshpande) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 10:21:23 -0800 > From: Ashok Aklujkar > To: Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Traditional/ insider's view of language or > dialect status of Prakrits. IMPROVED TEXT > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > The message somehow left my computer as I was changing parts of it. There > seems to be a problem with the most recent version of Apple?s Mail program. > If one is changing a draft selected for sending with the ?Check grammar > with spelling? tool or making changes manually one by one, the draft is > sent even after only a part of the changes are made. It is not held back > for more changes or for another activation of the ?send? command. Anyway, > my intended text was: > > As far as I could ascertain, there is no word meaning ?dialect? in > pre-modern Sanskrit. In ancient and medieval India, the way of looking at > linguistic variation and handling it must have been different, at a > fundamental level, from the way to which we are now accustomed. In my view, > therefore, the questions we should ask before we try to answer the > important questions Prof. Paturi has asked should be: (a) Where exactly the > difference lay? (b) How did the difference come about? What were its > historical causes? > > I do not have answers to these questions, at least not answers that can be > put forward for discussion, but the following article by Dr. Eivind Kahrs > could be taken as a starting point: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kahrs, > Eivind G(eroge). 1992. "What is a tad-bhava word?? Indo-Iranian Journal > 35:225-249. > > a.a. > . > > On Dec 24, 2014, at 12:55 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > > > > > > When did the convention of treating Prakrits as 'languages' and not as > dialects begin? > > > > Was there such an attitude of 'languages' not 'dialects' towards > Prakrits in Sanskrit or Prakrit sources of the ancient or medieval period? > > > > Is there a work dealing with this issue? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 17:40:39 2014 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 14 09:40:39 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Dharm=C4=81nubandhi=C5=9Blokacaturda=C5=9B=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B146C41@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Another copy seems to be at: Bayerische Staatsbibliothek Bavarian State Library (BSB) M?nchen, D-80539 Germany OCLC Number: 162239083 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Fri Dec 26 22:48:04 2014 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 14 22:48:04 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Traditional/ insider's view of language or dialect status of Prakrits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0374CE23D@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> >Ultimately, a clear distinction between ?language? and ?dialects? eludes even modern linguistics, in spite of long discussions of this issue. As Max Weinreich elegantly put it: "A language is a dialect with an army and navy." Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________________ From emstern at verizon.net Sat Dec 27 00:37:39 2014 From: emstern at verizon.net (Elliot Stern) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 14 19:37:39 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Dharm=C4=81nubandhi=C5=9Blokacaturda=C5=9B=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B146C41@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Rohana, I was out of town when I first saw your message. I have now found a copy of the book in my personal library. I will scan it tomorrow or Sunday and email the pdf to you. Elliot Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America telephone: 215-747-6204 mobile: 267-240-8418 emstern at verizon.net > On 26 Dec 2014, at 07:02, Rohana Seneviratne wrote: > > Dear List, > > > I am looking for the Dharm?nubandhi?lokacaturda?? by ?e?ak???a, which was published in 1927 as the No. 22 under the Princess of Wales Sarasavati Bhavana series. The usual places we find such texts do not seem to have it. I will be very much grateful if anybody would like to share with me a PDF of it. > > Thank you very much in advance. > > Best Wishes, > Rohana > ------------------------------------------------ > Rohana Seneviratne > DPhil Student in Sanskrit > The Oriental Institute > Faculty of Oriental Studies > University of Oxford > Pusey Lane, Oxford > OX1 2LE > United Kingdom > > Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk > Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/ _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nasadasin at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 01:47:53 2014 From: nasadasin at gmail.com (Al Collins) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 14 16:47:53 -0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] seeking scanned text Message-ID: Anne-Marie Esnoul, Les Strophes de S??khya (Paris, 1964). If anyone has a scanned copy of this text, I would much appreciate receiving it. Thanks, Al Collins Al Collins, Ph.D., Ph.D. 615 E. 82nd Ave. #102 Anchorage, AK 99518 907-344-3338 https://pacifica.academia.edu/AlfredCollins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From oleg.bendz at yahoo.com Sat Dec 27 09:38:16 2014 From: oleg.bendz at yahoo.com (Oleg Bendz) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 14 09:38:16 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Traditional/ insider's view of language or dialect status of Prakrits In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0374CE23D@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <199641636.1704287.1419673096995.JavaMail.yahoo@jws106121.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 2014-12-27 Dear All: The "prakrit" of Gandhara (the Kushans) had an army, but maybe not a navy.Language periodization may be an important consideration.The problem of language and dialect may reside in the terminology itself.I should stop here. O.Bendz On Friday, December 26, 2014 5:48 PM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: >Ultimately, a clear distinction between ?language? and ?dialects? eludes even modern linguistics, in spite of long discussions of this issue. As Max Weinreich elegantly put it: "A language is a dialect with an army and navy." Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________________ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Sat Dec 27 18:18:54 2014 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 14 18:18:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Traditional/ insider's view of language or dialect status of Prakrits In-Reply-To: <199641636.1704287.1419673096995.JavaMail.yahoo@jws106121.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20BC160C-EB7C-404A-ADEF-284B37EFFB97@illinois.edu> Language periodization, just like many aspects of textual periodization, is a perennial problem and only further complicates the picture. There are Prakritic forms as early as the Rig Veda (such as vika?a beside vik?ta, or kitava for expected k?tavat). Regarding Vedic ?dialects?, there is an interesting paper by Emeneau: The dialects of Old Indo-Aryan. In: Ancient Indo-European dialects, ed. by Henrik Birnbaum and Jaan Puhvel, 123?138. Berkeley/Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1966. Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 27-Dec-2014, at 3:38, Oleg Bendz > wrote: 2014-12-27 Dear All: The "prakrit" of Gandhara (the Kushans) had an army, but maybe not a navy. Language periodization may be an important consideration. The problem of language and dialect may reside in the terminology itself. I should stop here. O.Bendz On Friday, December 26, 2014 5:48 PM, Matthew Kapstein > wrote: >Ultimately, a clear distinction between ?language? and ?dialects? eludes even modern linguistics, in spite of long discussions of this issue. As Max Weinreich elegantly put it: "A language is a dialect with an army and navy." Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________________ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Sat Dec 27 22:51:49 2014 From: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk (Rohana Seneviratne) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 14 22:51:49 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Dharm=C4=81nubandhi=C5=9Blokacaturda=C5=9B=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B146C41@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B146D01@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Dear All, I received a beautifully scanned PDF of the Dharm?nubandhi?lokacaturda?? from Elliot Stern with many many thanks. I would also like to thank Prof. Madhav Deshpande, Prof. Ashok Aklujkar and Ms. Lauren Bausch for their kind help to trace the possible locations of this work. Thank you very much all. With Elliot's approval, I will upload the PDF to archive.org and share the link. Best Wishes, Rohana ------------------------------------------------ Rohana Seneviratne DPhil Student in Sanskrit The Oriental Institute Faculty of Oriental Studies University of Oxford Pusey Lane, Oxford OX1 2LE United Kingdom Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/ ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Rohana Seneviratne [rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk] Sent: Friday, December 26, 2014 12:02 PM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Dharm?nubandhi?lokacaturda?? Dear List, I am looking for the Dharm?nubandhi?lokacaturda?? by ?e?ak???a, which was published in 1927 as the No. 22 under the Princess of Wales Sarasavati Bhavana series. The usual places we find such texts do not seem to have it. I will be very much grateful if anybody would like to share with me a PDF of it. Thank you very much in advance. Best Wishes, Rohana ------------------------------------------------ Rohana Seneviratne DPhil Student in Sanskrit The Oriental Institute Faculty of Oriental Studies University of Oxford Pusey Lane, Oxford OX1 2LE United Kingdom Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Sun Dec 28 09:07:57 2014 From: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk (Rohana Seneviratne) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 14 09:07:57 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Dharm=C4=81nubandhi=C5=9Blokacaturda=C5=9B=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B146D01@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B146D35@MBX06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Here is the Dharm?nubandhi?lokacaturda?? of ?e?ak???a. Once again, many thanks to Prof. Elliot Stern. https://archive.org/details/Dharmanubandhislokacaturdasi Best Wishes, Rohana ------------------------------------------------ Rohana Seneviratne DPhil Student in Sanskrit The Oriental Institute Faculty of Oriental Studies University of Oxford Pusey Lane, Oxford OX1 2LE United Kingdom Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/ ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Rohana Seneviratne [rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk] Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2014 10:51 PM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Dharm?nubandhi?lokacaturda?? Dear All, I received a beautifully scanned PDF of the Dharm?nubandhi?lokacaturda?? from Elliot Stern with many many thanks. I would also like to thank Prof. Madhav Deshpande, Prof. Ashok Aklujkar and Ms. Lauren Bausch for their kind help to trace the possible locations of this work. Thank you very much all. With Elliot's approval, I will upload the PDF to archive.org and share the link. Best Wishes, Rohana ------------------------------------------------ Rohana Seneviratne DPhil Student in Sanskrit The Oriental Institute Faculty of Oriental Studies University of Oxford Pusey Lane, Oxford OX1 2LE United Kingdom Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/ ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Rohana Seneviratne [rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk] Sent: Friday, December 26, 2014 12:02 PM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Dharm?nubandhi?lokacaturda?? Dear List, I am looking for the Dharm?nubandhi?lokacaturda?? by ?e?ak???a, which was published in 1927 as the No. 22 under the Princess of Wales Sarasavati Bhavana series. The usual places we find such texts do not seem to have it. I will be very much grateful if anybody would like to share with me a PDF of it. Thank you very much in advance. Best Wishes, Rohana ------------------------------------------------ Rohana Seneviratne DPhil Student in Sanskrit The Oriental Institute Faculty of Oriental Studies University of Oxford Pusey Lane, Oxford OX1 2LE United Kingdom Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 13:04:44 2014 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 14 14:04:44 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Controversy over Indian Science Congress to include panel On Pushpaka Vimanas Message-ID: http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-general/controversy-evidence-ancient-indian-aviation-technology-science-congress-020149 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 13:36:38 2014 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 14 14:36:38 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Controversy over Indian Science Congress to include panel On Pushpaka Vimanas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Captain Anand J Bodas told the Mumbai Mirror. "In those days aeroplanes were huge in size, and could move left, right, as well as backwards, unlike modern planes which only fly forward." - It looks like it's not only aeroplanes which are moving backwards... On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 2:04 PM, patrick mccartney wrote: > > http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-general/controversy-evidence-ancient-indian-aviation-technology-science-congress-020149 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Dec 28 13:52:17 2014 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 14 08:52:17 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question on Sanskrit Syntax Message-ID: n a Sanskrit work titled Nity?c?radarpa?a by Brahm?nanda, on p. 2, I see a quotation from Dak?asm?ti: ??????????? ???????????????? ?????: ? ???????????????? ??????????????????????? ????? ?? Here, ?c?r?t pr?pyate svargam is an irregular usage, unless one assumes that the word svarga is somehow used in neuter gender. With the normal masculine gender of the word svarga, svargam would be an accusative case form, and this does not fit well with the passive verb. In Marathi, such passive constructions are possible: ?????? (instrumental) ??????? (accusative) ?????? (passive verb). This usage alternates with a more Sanskrit like passive: ?????? ???? (nom) ??????/????? (nom). I am wondering if anyone has come across Sanskrit passive (bh?ve) constructions where the object shows up in the accusative case. Any information or suggestions are appreciated. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 17:07:31 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 14 18:07:31 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Controversy over Indian Science Congress to include panel On Pushpaka Vimanas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's a refutation of the Vaimanika arguments, by a group of Indian scholars at the Indian Institute of Technology at Bangalore, from 1974. PDF attached to this email. H. S. Mukunda, S. M. Deshpande, H. R. Nagendra, A. Prabhu, S. P. Govindaraju, "A Critical Sudy of the Work Vymanika Shastra" in *Scientific Opinion*, 1974:5-12. Best, Dominik Wujastyk ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ACriticalStudyOfTheWorkVaimanikaShastra.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 665287 bytes Desc: not available URL: From martin at vedicsociety.org Sun Dec 28 17:13:06 2014 From: martin at vedicsociety.org (Martin Gluckman) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 14 22:43:06 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Wayne Howard author of Veda Recitation in Varanasi Message-ID: <9b27f9802f3eb8df19362afc422fde1a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends, I am trying to contact Prof. Wayne Howard the author of Veda Recitation in Varanasi (a magnificent study of the different traditions of sounding Vedic chanting): https://books.google.co.in/books?id=8fRRPQAACAAJ&dq=veda+recitation+in+varanasi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rzmgVMXYB8eiuQSrh4CoAw&redir_esc=y If anyone has current whereabouts and contact details I would appreciate further. I have tried via Indiana University but they have no contacts currently. Kindest Regards, Martin Gluckman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Sun Dec 28 17:58:27 2014 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 14 12:58:27 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Controversy over Indian Science Congress to include panel On Pushpaka Vimanas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1419789543-3242785.97280369.fsBSHwSnf022672@rs143.luxsci.com> Thank you. This article states that ?Our main concern?will be with?Brihad Vimana Shastra [and]?Vyamanika Shastra?? Then: ?Of course, a discussion of whether these?aircraft?existed at all is undecideable within the realm of science and is beyond the scope of this paper.? Best, Howard Resnick > On Dec 28, 2014, at 12:07 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > Here's a refutation of the Vaimanika arguments, by a group of Indian scholars at the Indian Institute of Technology at Bangalore, from 1974. PDF attached to this email. > > H. S. Mukunda, S. M. Deshpande, H. R. Nagendra, A. Prabhu, S. P. Govindaraju, "A Critical Sudy of the Work Vymanika Shastra" in Scientific Opinion, 1974:5-12. > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > ? > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 18:16:36 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 14 19:16:36 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Controversy over Indian Science Congress to include panel On Pushpaka Vimanas In-Reply-To: <1419789543-3242785.97280369.fsBSHwSnf022672@rs143.luxsci.com> Message-ID: And, in the abstract, It appears that his work cannot be dated earlier than 1904 and contains details which, on the basis of our present knowledge, force us to conclude the non feasibility of heavier?than craft of earlier times. ? DW? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 18:22:09 2014 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 14 19:22:09 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Controversy over Indian Science Congress to include panel On Pushpaka Vimanas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Further background: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shivkar_Bapuji_Talpade DW ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sun Dec 28 22:31:17 2014 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 14 17:31:17 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A question on names of brahmin females Message-ID: <14a930664cf-5953-6ad2@webstg-m02.mail.aol.com> Dear Indologists, During medieval times, were there any prescriptions for the naming of female children in Brahmin families known for Vedic expertise with male members with titles such as sarvakratuy?ji? More specifically, would they have names containing parts meaning 'captive'? Were there instances of ?rivai??ava Brahmins who had such titles? Thanks in advance Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From witzel at fas.harvard.edu Mon Dec 29 12:33:18 2014 From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 14 07:33:18 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Controversy over Indian Science Congress to include panel On Pushpaka Vimanas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8E5D1243-DA8D-4E60-B292-A4678861EDE9@fas.harvard.edu> I would like to draw your attention to V. Raghavan's (separately published) paper (33 pp.) Yantras or Mechanical Contrivances in Ancient India. Transaction no. 10 (2nd edition) The Indian Institute of Culture (6, North Public Square Road, Bangalore 4) 1956 He also deals with "aerial vehicles" extensively, with text passages taken from Epic and Classical literature but also (importantly) from: * Mane?vara's M?nasoll?sa (c. 1131 CE) and * Bhoja's ?r?g?rama?jar? and his Samar??ga?as?tradh?ra. Extensive description of a light wood bird, with several fires heating mercury inside? Amusingly, the texts often refer to the technical knowledge of ? the Yavana. Cheers! Michael On Dec 28, 2014, at 12:07 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Here's a refutation of the Vaimanika arguments, by a group of Indian scholars at the Indian Institute of Technology at Bangalore, from 1974. PDF attached to this email. > > H. S. Mukunda, S. M. Deshpande, H. R. Nagendra, A. Prabhu, S. P. Govindaraju, "A Critical Sudy of the Work Vymanika Shastra" in Scientific Opinion, 1974:5-12. > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > ? > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info ============ > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > Wales Prof. of Sanskrit, > Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, fax 617 - 496 8571; > direct line: 617- 496 2990 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From witzel at fas.harvard.edu Mon Dec 29 12:51:47 2014 From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 14 07:51:47 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Traditional/ insider's view of language or dialect status of Prakrits In-Reply-To: <20BC160C-EB7C-404A-ADEF-284B37EFFB97@illinois.edu> Message-ID: In addition see the detailed discussions: * Tracing the Vedic dialects. in: Colette Caillat, Dialectes dans les litteratures indo-aryennes. Actes du Colloque International organise par UA 1058 sous les auspices du C.N.R.S avec le soutien du College de France, de la Fondation Hugot du College de France, de l'Universite de Paris III, du Ministre des Affaires Etrangeres, Paris (Fondation Hugot) 16-18 Septembre 1986. Paris (College de France, Institut de Civilisation Indienne) 1989; 97-264 [where you can see that a particular local dialect feature (widely) spreads in the subsequent text levels] * Notes on Vedic dialects, 1. Zinbun, Annals of the Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University, 67 (1991) Kyoto 1991, 31-70 * Notes on Vedic Dialects, 2. In : G. Schweiger (ed.), Indogermanica. FS f?r Gert Klingenschmitt. Indische, iranische und indogermanische Studien dem verehrten Jubilar dargebracht zu seinem f?nfundsechigsten Geburtstag. Taimering: Schweiger VWT-Verlag 2005, 733-743. Cheers, Michael On Dec 27, 2014, at 1:18 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: > Language periodization, just like many aspects of textual periodization, is a perennial problem and only further complicates the picture. There are Prakritic forms as early as the Rig Veda (such as vika?a beside vik?ta, or kitava for expected k?tavat). > > Regarding Vedic ?dialects?, there is an interesting paper by Emeneau: The dialects of Old Indo-Aryan. In: Ancient Indo-European dialects, ed. by Henrik Birnbaum and Jaan Puhvel, 123?138. Berkeley/Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1966. > > Cheers, > > Hans Henrich Hock > > > On 27-Dec-2014, at 3:38, Oleg Bendz wrote: > >> 2014-12-27 >> >> Dear All: >> >> The "prakrit" of Gandhara (the Kushans) had an army, but maybe not a navy. >> Language periodization may be an important consideration. >> The problem of language and dialect may reside in the terminology itself. >> I should stop here. >> >> O.Bendz >> >> >> On Friday, December 26, 2014 5:48 PM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: >> >> >> >Ultimately, a clear distinction between ?language? and ?dialects? eludes even modern linguistics, in spite of long discussions of this issue. >> >> As Max Weinreich elegantly put it: "A language is a dialect with an army and navy." >> >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> >> ________________________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info ============ > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > Wales Prof. of Sanskrit, > Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, fax 617 - 496 8571; > direct line: 617- 496 2990 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de Mon Dec 29 13:46:17 2014 From: falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Harry Falk) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 14 14:46:17 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Controversy over Indian Science Congress to include panel On Pushpaka Vimanas In-Reply-To: <8E5D1243-DA8D-4E60-B292-A4678861EDE9@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <51576.79.194.64.247.1419860777.webmail@webmail.zedat.fu-berlin.de> Aeroplanes are not the only outcome of science of ancient India. According to a south-asian friend it was PM Mody who in a very recent speech said that cosmetic surgery was invented in India and gave Ganesh as a prime example of it! With ample scope for refining the science, meseems. Does any one know if the PM was serious about this or was this meant as a joke? H. Falk From slaje at kabelmail.de Mon Dec 29 14:04:36 2014 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 14 15:04:36 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Controversy over Indian Science Congress to include panel On Pushpaka Vimanas In-Reply-To: <51576.79.194.64.247.1419860777.webmail@webmail.zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/28/indian-prime-minister-genetic-science-existed-ancient-times Enjoy! ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From witzel at fas.harvard.edu Mon Dec 29 14:06:29 2014 From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 14 09:06:29 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Controversy over Indian Science Congress to include panel On Pushpaka Vimanas In-Reply-To: <51576.79.194.64.247.1419860777.webmail@webmail.zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <90DD34D3-9A8B-4D5D-AD05-4F269CD510A1@fas.harvard.edu> Modi was serious. And that at a scientific meeting! (starts after a few seconds) (in Hindi) He also talked about genetics (artificial insemination and birth outside the womb)?. As for Vedic "plastic surgery," an Indian colleague remarked: a human neck is maximally only about 8 inches thick, but an elephant's... How did the Vedic plastic surgeons manage that? Cheers! Michael On Dec 29, 2014, at 8:46 AM, Harry Falk wrote: > Aeroplanes are not the only outcome of science of ancient India. > According to a south-asian friend it was PM Mody who in a very recent > speech said that cosmetic surgery was invented in India and gave Ganesh as > a prime example of it! > With ample scope for refining the science, meseems. > Does any one know if the PM was serious about this or was this meant as a > joke? > H. Falk > > ============ > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > Wales Prof. of Sanskrit, > Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, fax 617 - 496 8571; > direct line: 617- 496 2990 From hhhock at illinois.edu Mon Dec 29 16:11:24 2014 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 14 16:11:24 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question on Sanskrit Syntax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Madhav. If pr?pyate is construed as a verb of motion (in the sense ?reach?), the structure has precedents; compare the structure below, which shows that with verbs of motion the goal is not always construed as object in post-Vedic. Of course, the parallel with labhate might suggest an interpretation ?obtain?. In that case (i.e., if it is not to be taken as a motion verb), there may be a parallel in late Sanskrit (one of the versions of the Vet?lapa?cavi??ati, perhaps the one edited by Uhle); unfortunately I can?t find the exact reference. sabh?m v? na prave??avyam (Manu 8.13) All the best for the New Year, Hans On 28-Dec-2014, at 7:52, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: n a Sanskrit work titled Nity?c?radarpa?a by Brahm?nanda, on p. 2, I see a quotation from Dak?asm?ti: ??????????? ???????????????? ?????: ? ???????????????? ??????????????????????? ????? ?? Here, ?c?r?t pr?pyate svargam is an irregular usage, unless one assumes that the word svarga is somehow used in neuter gender. With the normal masculine gender of the word svarga, svargam would be an accusative case form, and this does not fit well with the passive verb. In Marathi, such passive constructions are possible: ?????? (instrumental) ??????? (accusative) ?????? (passive verb). This usage alternates with a more Sanskrit like passive: ?????? ???? (nom) ??????/????? (nom). I am wondering if anyone has come across Sanskrit passive (bh?ve) constructions where the object shows up in the accusative case. Any information or suggestions are appreciated. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Dec 29 16:44:16 2014 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 14 11:44:16 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question on Sanskrit Syntax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of all the explanations I have received, this one seems most convincing, and especially the example from Manu seems like a good parallel. Thanks, Hans. Madhav On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: > Hi, Madhav. > > If *pr?pyate* is construed as a verb of motion (in the sense ?reach?), > the structure has precedents; compare the structure below, which shows that > with verbs of motion the goal is not always construed as object in > post-Vedic. Of course, the parallel with *labhate* might suggest an > interpretation ?obtain?. In that case (i.e., if it is not to be taken as a > motion verb), there may be a parallel in late Sanskrit (one of the versions > of the Vet?lapa?cavi??ati, perhaps the one edited by Uhle); unfortunately I > can?t find the exact reference. > > sabh?m v? na prave??avyam (Manu 8.13) > > All the best for the New Year, > > Hans > > > On 28-Dec-2014, at 7:52, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > n a Sanskrit work titled Nity?c?radarpa?a by Brahm?nanda, on p. 2, I see > a quotation from Dak?asm?ti: > > ??????????? ???????????????? ?????: ? > ???????????????? ??????????????????????? ????? ?? > > Here, ?c?r?t pr?pyate svargam is an irregular usage, unless one assumes > that the word svarga is somehow used in neuter gender. With the normal > masculine gender of the word svarga, svargam would be an accusative case > form, and this does not fit well with the passive verb. In Marathi, such > passive constructions are possible: ?????? (instrumental) ??????? > (accusative) ?????? (passive verb). This usage alternates with a more > Sanskrit like passive: ?????? ???? (nom) ??????/????? (nom). I am > wondering if anyone has come across Sanskrit passive (bh?ve) constructions > where the object shows up in the accusative case. Any information or > suggestions are appreciated. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics > Department of Asian Languages and Cultures > 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 > The University of Michigan > Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.ollett at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 17:01:18 2014 From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 14 12:01:18 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Traditional/ insider's view of language or dialect status of Prakrits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Most of the responses take for granted that ?Prakrit? is Sanskrit that is (a) incorrect, or (b) at a further stage of linguistic development, and interesting sociolinguistic and historical-linguistic insights come from this definition. But one way to reframe Dr. Paturi's question is: what are the schemas under which ?Prakrit? (or ?the Prakrits?) was classified in ancient and medieval India? Regarding the use of the word pr?k?ta- in reference to a language (or dialect), one can consult Pischel's grammar (??1ff.), and V. Pisani, ?On the Origin of Pr?k?tam and P?li as Language Designations,? pp. 185?191 in *Felicitation Volume Presented to Professor Sripad Krishna Belvalkar*, Benares: M.B. Dass, 1957 (completely outdated when it comes to Pali). And my dissertation, eventually. As far as I know, the earliest such uses, which are still difficult to date reliably, are in the N??ya??stra (of p??hyam), in the G?th?sapta?at? (of k?vyam), and in the Sth?n??gas?tra (of bha?it?). Dr. Paturi might be interested in the classification found in the Eastern Prakrit grammarians, viz. bh???, vibh???, apabhra??a, and pai??cika. Acharya?s ed. of the Pr?k?tasarvasva has some discussion of this. On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Michael Witzel wrote: > In addition see the detailed discussions: > > ** Tracing the Vedic dialects.* in: Colette Caillat, Dialectes dans les > litteratures indo-aryennes. Actes du Colloque International organise par UA > 1058 sous les auspices du C.N.R.S avec le soutien du College de France, de > la Fondation Hugot du College de France, de l'Universite de Paris III, du > Ministre des Affaires Etrangeres, Paris (Fondation Hugot) 16-18 Septembre > 1986. > Paris (College de France, Institut de Civilisation Indienne) 1989; 97-264 > > [where you can see that a particular local dialect feature (widely) > spreads in the subsequent text levels] > > ** Notes on Vedic dialects, 1. * Zinbun, Annals of the Institute for > Research in Humanities, Kyoto University, 67 (1991) Kyoto 1991, 31-70 > > ** Notes on Vedic Dialects, 2. *In : G. Schweiger (ed.), Indogermanica. > FS f?r Gert Klingenschmitt. Indische, iranische und indogermanische Studien > dem verehrten Jubilar dargebracht zu seinem f?nfundsechigsten Geburtstag. > Taimering: Schweiger VWT-Verlag 2005, 733-743. > > Cheers, > > Michael > > > On Dec 27, 2014, at 1:18 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: > > Language periodization, just like many aspects of textual periodization, > is a perennial problem and only further complicates the picture. There are > Prakritic forms as early as the Rig Veda (such as *vika?a* beside *vik?ta*, > or *kitava* for expected *k?tavat*). > > Regarding Vedic ?dialects?, there is an interesting paper by Emeneau: The > dialects of Old Indo-Aryan. In: *Ancient Indo-European dialects*, ed. by > Henrik Birnbaum and Jaan Puhvel, 123?138. Berkeley/Los Angeles: University > of California Press, 1966. > > Cheers, > > Hans Henrich Hock > > > On 27-Dec-2014, at 3:38, Oleg Bendz wrote: > > 2014-12-27 > > Dear All: > > The "prakrit" of Gandhara (the Kushans) had an army, but maybe not a > navy. > Language periodization may be an important consideration. > The problem of language and dialect may reside in the terminology itself. > I should stop here. > > O.Bendz > > > On Friday, December 26, 2014 5:48 PM, Matthew Kapstein < > mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote: > > > >Ultimately, a clear distinction between ?language? and ?dialects? eludes > even modern linguistics, in spite of long discussions of this issue. > > As Max Weinreich elegantly put it: "A language is a dialect with an army > and navy." > > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > ________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > ============ > > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > Wales Prof. of Sanskrit, > Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, fax 617 - 496 8571; > direct line: 617- 496 2990 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 18:36:42 2014 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 14 00:06:42 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Traditional/ insider's view of language or dialect status of Prakrits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Dr. Ollett. 'Dialect' is a modern category from the discipline of linguistics is obvious. What are the emic categories/ perspectives found in Sanskrit and Prakrit sources in reference to 1. Sanskrit and Prakrits 2. Their mutual relation 3. Their status in relation to each other ? To which etic categories/ perspectives do those emic categories/perspectives come close ? Or In what contemporary terms can we translate those emic categories/perspectives the best? Which of the two: 'language' or 'dialect' a suitable way of translating the emic categories towards Prakrit? Books dealing with these issues are what I am looking for. List members kindly guided me to some such books. Dr. Ollett's suggestions are very much useful in this regard. Thanks again. Regards, Nagaraj On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 10:31 PM, Andrew Ollett wrote: > Most of the responses take for granted that ?Prakrit? is Sanskrit that is > (a) incorrect, or (b) at a further stage of linguistic development, and > interesting sociolinguistic and historical-linguistic insights come from > this definition. > > But one way to reframe Dr. Paturi's question is: what are the schemas > under which ?Prakrit? (or ?the Prakrits?) was classified in ancient and > medieval India? > > Regarding the use of the word pr?k?ta- in reference to a language (or > dialect), one can consult Pischel's grammar (??1ff.), and V. Pisani, ?On > the Origin of Pr?k?tam and P?li as Language Designations,? pp. 185?191 in *Felicitation > Volume Presented to Professor Sripad Krishna Belvalkar*, Benares: M.B. > Dass, 1957 (completely outdated when it comes to Pali). And my > dissertation, eventually. As far as I know, the earliest such uses, which > are still difficult to date reliably, are in the N??ya??stra (of p??hyam), > in the G?th?sapta?at? (of k?vyam), and in the Sth?n??gas?tra (of bha?it?). > Dr. Paturi might be interested in the classification found in the Eastern > Prakrit grammarians, viz. bh???, vibh???, apabhra??a, and pai??cika. > Acharya?s ed. of the Pr?k?tasarvasva has some discussion of this. > > On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Michael Witzel > wrote: > >> In addition see the detailed discussions: >> >> ** Tracing the Vedic dialects.* in: Colette Caillat, Dialectes dans les >> litteratures indo-aryennes. Actes du Colloque International organise par UA >> 1058 sous les auspices du C.N.R.S avec le soutien du College de France, de >> la Fondation Hugot du College de France, de l'Universite de Paris III, du >> Ministre des Affaires Etrangeres, Paris (Fondation Hugot) 16-18 Septembre >> 1986. >> Paris (College de France, Institut de Civilisation Indienne) 1989; 97-264 >> >> [where you can see that a particular local dialect feature (widely) >> spreads in the subsequent text levels] >> >> ** Notes on Vedic dialects, 1. * Zinbun, Annals of the Institute for >> Research in Humanities, Kyoto University, 67 (1991) Kyoto 1991, 31-70 >> >> ** Notes on Vedic Dialects, 2. *In : G. Schweiger (ed.), Indogermanica. >> FS f?r Gert Klingenschmitt. Indische, iranische und indogermanische Studien >> dem verehrten Jubilar dargebracht zu seinem f?nfundsechigsten Geburtstag. >> Taimering: Schweiger VWT-Verlag 2005, 733-743. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Michael >> >> >> On Dec 27, 2014, at 1:18 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: >> >> Language periodization, just like many aspects of textual >> periodization, is a perennial problem and only further complicates the >> picture. There are Prakritic forms as early as the Rig Veda (such as >> *vika?a* beside *vik?ta*, or *kitava* for expected *k?tavat*). >> >> Regarding Vedic ?dialects?, there is an interesting paper by Emeneau: The >> dialects of Old Indo-Aryan. In: *Ancient Indo-European dialects*, ed. by >> Henrik Birnbaum and Jaan Puhvel, 123?138. Berkeley/Los Angeles: University >> of California Press, 1966. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Hans Henrich Hock >> >> >> On 27-Dec-2014, at 3:38, Oleg Bendz wrote: >> >> 2014-12-27 >> >> Dear All: >> >> The "prakrit" of Gandhara (the Kushans) had an army, but maybe not a >> navy. >> Language periodization may be an important consideration. >> The problem of language and dialect may reside in the terminology itself. >> I should stop here. >> >> O.Bendz >> >> >> On Friday, December 26, 2014 5:48 PM, Matthew Kapstein < >> mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote: >> >> >> >Ultimately, a clear distinction between ?language? and ?dialects? eludes >> even modern linguistics, in spite of long discussions of this issue. >> >> As Max Weinreich elegantly put it: "A language is a dialect with an army >> and navy." >> >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> >> ________________________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> >> ============ >> >> Michael Witzel >> witzel at fas.harvard.edu >> >> Wales Prof. of Sanskrit, >> Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University >> 1 Bow Street, >> Cambridge MA 02138, USA >> >> phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, fax 617 - 496 8571; >> direct line: 617- 496 2990 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > -- Prof.Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad-500044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon Dec 29 20:58:29 2014 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 14 21:58:29 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Controversy over Indian Science Congress to include panel On Pushpaka Vimanas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Artur Karp Date: 2014-12-29 21:56 GMT+01:00 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Controversy over Indian Science Congress to include panel On Pushpaka Vimanas To: Michael Witzel Airplanes? Flying machines? Trivia. According to pandit Gurudatta Vidyarthi (MA in Physics, 1886; the first ever Arya-Samaj scientist) Vedic rishis knew composition of water--- and they could make it. In short: Mitra (oxygen) relates to two Varunas (hydrogen), as in the Mitravarunau (H2O). [image: Obraz w tre?ci 1] " Let one who is desirous to form water by the combination of two substances take pure hydrogen gas highly heated, and, oxygen gas possessed of the property rishadha, and let him combine them to form water." [image: Obraz w tre?ci 2] Chapter II, Composition of Water, pp. 98-102 Best, and New Year's Wishes to All Artur Karp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Tue Dec 30 04:22:50 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 14 09:52:50 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question on Sanskrit Syntax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 30 12 14 Dear Colleagues, Perhaps the P??inian assessment of the case is not exactly what has been observed here. According to the P??inian system the k?tya-category suffixes may mean the action or the object (3.4.70). When action is meant by the suffix in *prave??avyam* it does not affect the object of the active voice which shall retain its second (dvit?y?) case-ending by 2.3.1 and 2.3.2. This explains *sabh?m*. But when it means the object it becomes an adjective it must have the number, gender etc of the object. The above means that in the P??inian system the problem of M?dhav which occurs with a finite verb and not with a k?tya-suffix is not solved by the example from Manu. In the sentence cited by Madhav, which has a passive-voice, the object is understood as *abhihita *(by 3.4.69) and normally its case-ending should be the first one by 2.3.46. I just put the P??inian point of view without any claim to its theoretical correctness. The basic problems of the P??inian standpoint have been dealt with by me in a recent publication on P??ini with statement of its opponents' standpoints. But I have not yet got a copy of the book. The problem of accord between the *k?tya-*ending word and its corresponding noun has often to be faced in Sanskrit. Cf., *?akyam a?jalibhi? p?tu? v?t?? ketakagandhina?* R?m., Ki?kindh? 28.8. Here too *?akyam* is taken to mean the action. My best wishes for all for a happy 2015 DB On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 10:14 PM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Of all the explanations I have received, this one seems most convincing, > and especially the example from Manu seems like a good parallel. Thanks, > Hans. > > Madhav > > On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich > wrote: > >> Hi, Madhav. >> >> If *pr?pyate* is construed as a verb of motion (in the sense ?reach?), >> the structure has precedents; compare the structure below, which shows that >> with verbs of motion the goal is not always construed as object in >> post-Vedic. Of course, the parallel with *labhate* might suggest an >> interpretation ?obtain?. In that case (i.e., if it is not to be taken as a >> motion verb), there may be a parallel in late Sanskrit (one of the versions >> of the Vet?lapa?cavi??ati, perhaps the one edited by Uhle); unfortunately I >> can?t find the exact reference. >> >> sabh?m v? na prave??avyam (Manu 8.13) >> >> All the best for the New Year, >> >> Hans >> >> >> On 28-Dec-2014, at 7:52, Madhav Deshpande wrote: >> >> n a Sanskrit work titled Nity?c?radarpa?a by Brahm?nanda, on p. 2, I >> see a quotation from Dak?asm?ti: >> >> ??????????? ???????????????? ?????: ? >> ???????????????? ??????????????????????? ????? ?? >> >> Here, ?c?r?t pr?pyate svargam is an irregular usage, unless one assumes >> that the word svarga is somehow used in neuter gender. With the normal >> masculine gender of the word svarga, svargam would be an accusative case >> form, and this does not fit well with the passive verb. In Marathi, such >> passive constructions are possible: ?????? (instrumental) ??????? >> (accusative) ?????? (passive verb). This usage alternates with a more >> Sanskrit like passive: ?????? ???? (nom) ??????/????? (nom). I am >> wondering if anyone has come across Sanskrit passive (bh?ve) constructions >> where the object shows up in the accusative case. Any information or >> suggestions are appreciated. >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics >> Department of Asian Languages and Cultures >> 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 >> The University of Michigan >> Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> >> > > > -- > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics > Department of Asian Languages and Cultures > 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 > The University of Michigan > Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From catherine.clementin-ojha at ehess.fr Tue Dec 30 09:10:26 2014 From: catherine.clementin-ojha at ehess.fr (Clementin Catherine) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 14 10:10:26 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] autodafe in South India In-Reply-To: <38090006.68132515.1419930481066.JavaMail.zimbra@ehess.fr> Message-ID: <1730187296.68132994.1419930626415.JavaMail.zimbra@ehess.fr> Dear list, You might be interested to read this article: http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/bjp-rss-seek-ban-on-tamil-novel-arrest-of-author/article6729393.ece Best, Catherine Cl?mentin-Ojha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Dec 30 12:36:36 2014 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 14 07:36:36 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question on Sanskrit Syntax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dipak, Thanks for these clarifying comments. The syntax of constructions with passive forms of ?ak is very complicated. Pata?jali's usage of "?akyam (neuter nom) c?nena ?vam??s?dibhir api k?ut (fem nom) pratihantum" in the Mah?bh??ya has generated long debates in the commentaries. With best wishes, Madhav On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:22 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > > > 30 12 14 > > Dear Colleagues, > > Perhaps the P??inian assessment of the case is not exactly what has been > observed here. According to the P??inian system the k?tya-category suffixes > may mean the action or the object (3.4.70). When action is meant by the > suffix in *prave??avyam* it does not affect the object of the active > voice which shall retain its second (dvit?y?) case-ending by 2.3.1 and > 2.3.2. This explains *sabh?m*. But when it means the object it becomes an > adjective it must have the number, gender etc of the object. > > The above means that in the P??inian system the problem of M?dhav which > occurs with a finite verb and not with a k?tya-suffix is not solved by the > example from Manu. In the sentence cited by Madhav, which has a > passive-voice, the object is understood as *abhihita *(by 3.4.69) and > normally its case-ending should be the first one by 2.3.46. > > I just put the P??inian point of view without any claim to its theoretical > correctness. The basic problems of the P??inian standpoint have been dealt > with by me in a recent publication on P??ini with statement of its > opponents' standpoints. But I have not yet got a copy of the book. > > The problem of accord between the *k?tya-*ending word and its > corresponding noun has often to be faced in Sanskrit. Cf., *?akyam > a?jalibhi? p?tu? v?t?? ketakagandhina?* R?m., Ki?kindh? 28.8. Here too > *?akyam* is taken to mean the action. > > My best wishes for all for a happy 2015 > > DB > > On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 10:14 PM, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: > >> Of all the explanations I have received, this one seems most convincing, >> and especially the example from Manu seems like a good parallel. Thanks, >> Hans. >> >> Madhav >> >> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich > > wrote: >> >>> Hi, Madhav. >>> >>> If *pr?pyate* is construed as a verb of motion (in the sense ?reach?), >>> the structure has precedents; compare the structure below, which shows that >>> with verbs of motion the goal is not always construed as object in >>> post-Vedic. Of course, the parallel with *labhate* might suggest an >>> interpretation ?obtain?. In that case (i.e., if it is not to be taken as a >>> motion verb), there may be a parallel in late Sanskrit (one of the versions >>> of the Vet?lapa?cavi??ati, perhaps the one edited by Uhle); unfortunately I >>> can?t find the exact reference. >>> >>> sabh?m v? na prave??avyam (Manu 8.13) >>> >>> All the best for the New Year, >>> >>> Hans >>> >>> >>> On 28-Dec-2014, at 7:52, Madhav Deshpande wrote: >>> >>> n a Sanskrit work titled Nity?c?radarpa?a by Brahm?nanda, on p. 2, I >>> see a quotation from Dak?asm?ti: >>> >>> ??????????? ???????????????? ?????: ? >>> ???????????????? ??????????????????????? ????? ?? >>> >>> Here, ?c?r?t pr?pyate svargam is an irregular usage, unless one assumes >>> that the word svarga is somehow used in neuter gender. With the normal >>> masculine gender of the word svarga, svargam would be an accusative case >>> form, and this does not fit well with the passive verb. In Marathi, such >>> passive constructions are possible: ?????? (instrumental) ??????? >>> (accusative) ?????? (passive verb). This usage alternates with a more >>> Sanskrit like passive: ?????? ???? (nom) ??????/????? (nom). I am >>> wondering if anyone has come across Sanskrit passive (bh?ve) constructions >>> where the object shows up in the accusative case. Any information or >>> suggestions are appreciated. >>> >>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>> Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics >>> Department of Asian Languages and Cultures >>> 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 >>> The University of Michigan >>> Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics >> Department of Asian Languages and Cultures >> 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 >> The University of Michigan >> Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca Tue Dec 30 16:27:49 2014 From: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca (Brendan Gillon) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 14 11:27:49 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit punctuation Message-ID: <54A2D285.8000702@mcgill.ca> Dear colleagues, I am writing to get advice for a friend who does not have access to Indology. My friend was asking me about punctuating Sanskrit texts. The principal questions is: Is there a reference which gives the general guidelines regarding punctuation? If so, what would one recommend? MORE DETAILS FOR THOSE INTERESTED: For anyone who might be interested, I provide in the balance of this message the details of the sentence prompting the question. It comes from a sentence the Zarkarikaa by Bha.t.ta Jayamizra on the Kumaarila's Zlokavaartika: na caatraiva.m vikalpaniiyam sahipuru.sa.h puurvamakartravastha evaasiididaanii.m saavasthotpanaa saa ca tato naavyatiriktaa tadutpattiprasafgaaya vyatiriktaa tadaa saiva tatra kaarakabhuuteti puru.sa.h puurvavadakaaraka eva tathaa bhoktravasthaayaamapi dra.s.tavyam atazca sa eva k.rtanaazaak.rtaagama iti. The basic frame of the sentence is this: na caatraiva.m vikalpaniiyam [ S1 ... S8 ] iti where S1 through S8 are short independent clauses. The question is: should any punctuation be used to separate the clauses? And if so, what kind of punctuation? Here is the actual sentence in its parsed version. na caatraiva.m vikalpaniiyam [ [S1 sa hi puru.sa.h puurvamakartravastha evaasiit ] [S2 idaanii.m saavasthotpanaa ] [S3 saa ca tato naavyatiriktaa ] [S4 tadutpattiprasafgaaya vyatiriktaa ] [S5 tadaa saiva tatra kaarakabhuutaa ] [S6 iti puru.sa.h puurvavadakaaraka eva ] [S7 tathaa bhoktravasthaayaamapi dra.s.tavyam ] [S8 atazca sa eva k.rtanaazaak.rtaagama ] iti ] A further question is prompted by how to punctuate "iti", where it could be replaced by "evam", as in clause S6 above. -- Brendan S. Gillon email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca Department of Linguistics McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088 H3A 1A7 CANADA webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/ From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Tue Dec 30 17:11:14 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 14 22:41:14 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question on Sanskrit Syntax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks! But my intention was not one of clarifying the usage but of drawing attention to the elusive character of the solutions offered. I never got a satisfactory answer to the problems associated with abhidhaana, with due respect, even from Pata;njali. Best DB On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Dear Dipak, > > Thanks for these clarifying comments. The syntax of constructions > with passive forms of ?ak is very complicated. Pata?jali's usage of > "?akyam (neuter nom) c?nena ?vam??s?dibhir api k?ut (fem nom) pratihantum" > in the Mah?bh??ya has generated long debates in the commentaries. With > best wishes, > > Madhav > > On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:22 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya < > dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> 30 12 14 >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> Perhaps the P??inian assessment of the case is not exactly what has been >> observed here. According to the P??inian system the k?tya-category suffixes >> may mean the action or the object (3.4.70). When action is meant by the >> suffix in *prave??avyam* it does not affect the object of the active >> voice which shall retain its second (dvit?y?) case-ending by 2.3.1 and >> 2.3.2. This explains *sabh?m*. But when it means the object it becomes >> an adjective it must have the number, gender etc of the object. >> >> The above means that in the P??inian system the problem of M?dhav which >> occurs with a finite verb and not with a k?tya-suffix is not solved by the >> example from Manu. In the sentence cited by Madhav, which has a >> passive-voice, the object is understood as *abhihita *(by 3.4.69) and >> normally its case-ending should be the first one by 2.3.46. >> >> I just put the P??inian point of view without any claim to its >> theoretical correctness. The basic problems of the P??inian standpoint have >> been dealt with by me in a recent publication on P??ini with statement of >> its opponents' standpoints. But I have not yet got a copy of the book. >> >> The problem of accord between the *k?tya-*ending word and its >> corresponding noun has often to be faced in Sanskrit. Cf., *?akyam >> a?jalibhi? p?tu? v?t?? ketakagandhina?* R?m., Ki?kindh? 28.8. Here too >> *?akyam* is taken to mean the action. >> >> My best wishes for all for a happy 2015 >> >> DB >> >> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 10:14 PM, Madhav Deshpande >> wrote: >> >>> Of all the explanations I have received, this one seems most convincing, >>> and especially the example from Manu seems like a good parallel. Thanks, >>> Hans. >>> >>> Madhav >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich < >>> hhhock at illinois.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, Madhav. >>>> >>>> If *pr?pyate* is construed as a verb of motion (in the sense >>>> ?reach?), the structure has precedents; compare the structure below, which >>>> shows that with verbs of motion the goal is not always construed as object >>>> in post-Vedic. Of course, the parallel with *labhate* might suggest an >>>> interpretation ?obtain?. In that case (i.e., if it is not to be taken as a >>>> motion verb), there may be a parallel in late Sanskrit (one of the versions >>>> of the Vet?lapa?cavi??ati, perhaps the one edited by Uhle); unfortunately I >>>> can?t find the exact reference. >>>> >>>> sabh?m v? na prave??avyam (Manu 8.13) >>>> >>>> All the best for the New Year, >>>> >>>> Hans >>>> >>>> >>>> On 28-Dec-2014, at 7:52, Madhav Deshpande wrote: >>>> >>>> n a Sanskrit work titled Nity?c?radarpa?a by Brahm?nanda, on p. 2, I >>>> see a quotation from Dak?asm?ti: >>>> >>>> ??????????? ???????????????? ?????: ? >>>> ???????????????? ??????????????????????? ????? ?? >>>> >>>> Here, ?c?r?t pr?pyate svargam is an irregular usage, unless one assumes >>>> that the word svarga is somehow used in neuter gender. With the normal >>>> masculine gender of the word svarga, svargam would be an accusative case >>>> form, and this does not fit well with the passive verb. In Marathi, such >>>> passive constructions are possible: ?????? (instrumental) ??????? >>>> (accusative) ?????? (passive verb). This usage alternates with a more >>>> Sanskrit like passive: ?????? ???? (nom) ??????/????? (nom). I am >>>> wondering if anyone has come across Sanskrit passive (bh?ve) constructions >>>> where the object shows up in the accusative case. Any information or >>>> suggestions are appreciated. >>>> >>>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>>> Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics >>>> Department of Asian Languages and Cultures >>>> 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 >>>> The University of Michigan >>>> Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>> Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics >>> Department of Asian Languages and Cultures >>> 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 >>> The University of Michigan >>> Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>> >> >> > > > -- > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics > Department of Asian Languages and Cultures > 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 > The University of Michigan > Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Tue Dec 30 17:47:38 2014 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 14 17:47:38 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question on Sanskrit Syntax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0FD73980-610A-48C8-AAD5-EAEAA204958C@illinois.edu> Thanks to both Dipak and Madhav for continuing this conversation. P??ini limits the dual behavior of motion verbs (i.e. bh?va or karman marking) to kta (the ta-participle) by 3.4.72; and for kta it is possible to cite Vedic examples of bh?va behavior: jana? v? etasy?nn?dyam ita? bhavati ? (JB 2.184; sim. ibid. 2.183-184, 235) The fact that Madhav?s and my examples are post-P?ninian/post-Vedic makes it possible to consider them later innovations, extensions of the syntactic behavior of kta to k?tya and yaK; but given the rarity with which examples like these are attested, it is difficult to be certain of the historical facts. All the best, Hans On 30-Dec-2014, at 11:11, Dipak Bhattacharya > wrote: Thanks! But my intention was not one of clarifying the usage but of drawing attention to the elusive character of the solutions offered. I never got a satisfactory answer to the problems associated with abhidhaana, with due respect, even from Pata;njali. Best DB On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: Dear Dipak, Thanks for these clarifying comments. The syntax of constructions with passive forms of ?ak is very complicated. Pata?jali's usage of "?akyam (neuter nom) c?nena ?vam??s?dibhir api k?ut (fem nom) pratihantum" in the Mah?bh??ya has generated long debates in the commentaries. With best wishes, Madhav On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:22 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya > wrote: 30 12 14 Dear Colleagues, Perhaps the P??inian assessment of the case is not exactly what has been observed here. According to the P??inian system the k?tya-category suffixes may mean the action or the object (3.4.70). When action is meant by the suffix in prave??avyam it does not affect the object of the active voice which shall retain its second (dvit?y?) case-ending by 2.3.1 and 2.3.2. This explains sabh?m. But when it means the object it becomes an adjective it must have the number, gender etc of the object. The above means that in the P??inian system the problem of M?dhav which occurs with a finite verb and not with a k?tya-suffix is not solved by the example from Manu. In the sentence cited by Madhav, which has a passive-voice, the object is understood as abhihita (by 3.4.69) and normally its case-ending should be the first one by 2.3.46. I just put the P??inian point of view without any claim to its theoretical correctness. The basic problems of the P??inian standpoint have been dealt with by me in a recent publication on P??ini with statement of its opponents' standpoints. But I have not yet got a copy of the book. The problem of accord between the k?tya-ending word and its corresponding noun has often to be faced in Sanskrit. Cf., ?akyam a?jalibhi? p?tu? v?t?? ketakagandhina? R?m., Ki?kindh? 28.8. Here too ?akyam is taken to mean the action. My best wishes for all for a happy 2015 DB On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 10:14 PM, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: Of all the explanations I have received, this one seems most convincing, and especially the example from Manu seems like a good parallel. Thanks, Hans. Madhav On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich > wrote: Hi, Madhav. If pr?pyate is construed as a verb of motion (in the sense ?reach?), the structure has precedents; compare the structure below, which shows that with verbs of motion the goal is not always construed as object in post-Vedic. Of course, the parallel with labhate might suggest an interpretation ?obtain?. In that case (i.e., if it is not to be taken as a motion verb), there may be a parallel in late Sanskrit (one of the versions of the Vet?lapa?cavi??ati, perhaps the one edited by Uhle); unfortunately I can?t find the exact reference. sabh?m v? na prave??avyam (Manu 8.13) All the best for the New Year, Hans On 28-Dec-2014, at 7:52, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: n a Sanskrit work titled Nity?c?radarpa?a by Brahm?nanda, on p. 2, I see a quotation from Dak?asm?ti: ??????????? ???????????????? ?????: ? ???????????????? ??????????????????????? ????? ?? Here, ?c?r?t pr?pyate svargam is an irregular usage, unless one assumes that the word svarga is somehow used in neuter gender. With the normal masculine gender of the word svarga, svargam would be an accusative case form, and this does not fit well with the passive verb. In Marathi, such passive constructions are possible: ?????? (instrumental) ??????? (accusative) ?????? (passive verb). This usage alternates with a more Sanskrit like passive: ?????? ???? (nom) ??????/????? (nom). I am wondering if anyone has come across Sanskrit passive (bh?ve) constructions where the object shows up in the accusative case. Any information or suggestions are appreciated. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk Tue Dec 30 19:09:41 2014 From: dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk (dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 14 19:09:41 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Controversy over Indian Science Congress to include panel On Pushpaka Vimanas In-Reply-To: <8E5D1243-DA8D-4E60-B292-A4678861EDE9@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <54A2F875.24885.7650F04@dermot.grevatt.force9.co.uk> I've read these posts, and the websites they refer to, with some wry amusement, and much sorrow. It distresses me not only that such hermeneutically crude interpretations of ancient Indian texts abound, from Dayananda Sarasvati to the present, but that the genuine scientific achievements of ancient India, in phonetics and grammar for instance, are ignored. They are insufficiently spectacular, and take too much explanation, to appeal to Modi and his admirers. There seems to be a lack of understanding that science is not a set of techniques for making things work, nor a set of doctrines, but a set of methods -- including the replication of experiments. Part of the blame for this must be taken by the colonial education system, from Macaulay onwards, which promoted literary and historical study at the expense of science, which would have cost more if it had been pursued as it was in Europe. If only Rammohun Roy's demand for "a more liberal and enlightened system of instruction, embracing mathematics, natural philosophy [i.e. science], chemistry, anatomy, with other useful sciences" (letter to Lord Amherst, 1823) had prevailed, the number of internationally reputed Indian scientists would be far greater, and the relation between textual accounts and the phenomenal world would be better understood. Dermot Killingley On 29 Dec 2014 at 7:33, Michael Witzel wrote: > > I would like to draw your attention to V. Raghavan's (separately > published) paper (33 pp.) > > Yantras or Mechanical Contrivances in Ancient India. > > Transaction no. 10 (2nd edition) > The Indian Institute of Culture > (6, North Public Square Road, Bangalore 4) > 1956 > > He also deals with "aerial vehicles" extensively, with text passages > taken from Epic and Classical literature but also (importantly) from: > * Mane?svara's Manasollasa (c. 1131 CE) and * Bhoja's > ?Srgarama?jari and his Samaragaasutradhara. > > Extensive description of a light wood bird, with several fires heating > mercury inside... > > Amusingly, the texts often refer to the technical knowledge of ... the > Yavana. > > Cheers! > > Michael > > > > On Dec 28, 2014, at 12:07 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > Here's a refutation of the Vaimanika arguments, by a group of > Indian scholars at the Indian Institute of Technology at > Bangalore, from 1974. PDF attached to this email. > > H. S. Mukunda, S. M. Deshpande, H. R. Nagendra, A. Prabhu, S. P. > Govindaraju, "A Critical Sudy of the Work Vymanika Shastra" in > Scientific Opinion, 1974:5-12. > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > > _____________________ > ____________ ______________ INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info > > > ============ > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > Wales Prof. of Sanskrit, > Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, fax 617 - 496 8571; > direct line: 617- 496 2990 > > > -- Dermot Killingley 9, Rectory Drive, Gosforth, Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT Phone (0191) 285 8053 From jhakgirish at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 01:03:20 2014 From: jhakgirish at yahoo.com (girish jha) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 14 01:03:20 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question on Sanskrit Syntax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1987765109.2931427.1419987800704.JavaMail.yahoo@jws106105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Dear? Indologists,According to Panini's Grammar it is well advisable that we accept prapyate as a passive form of causative prapayati .Then it is construed with the accusative form svargam.It has also been suggested by Prof Cardona.Girish K. JhaProfessor,Dept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna 800 005? From: Dipak Bhattacharya To: Madhav Deshpande Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:41 PM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Question on Sanskrit Syntax Thanks! But my intention was not one of clarifying the usage but of drawing attention to the elusive character of the solutions offered. I never got a satisfactory answer to the problems associated with abhidhaana, with due respect, even from Pata;njali. Best DB On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: Dear Dipak, ? ? ?Thanks for these clarifying comments.? The syntax of constructions with passive forms of ?ak is very complicated.? Pata?jali's usage of "?akyam (neuter nom) c?nena ?vam??s?dibhir api k?ut (fem nom) pratihantum" in the Mah?bh??ya has generated long debates in the commentaries.? With best wishes, Madhav On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:22 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: 30 12 14Dear Colleagues,Perhaps the P??inian assessment of the case is notexactly what has been observed here. According to the P??inian system the k?tya-categorysuffixes may mean the action or the object (3.4.70). When action is meant by thesuffix in prave??avyam it does not affect the object of the active voicewhich shall retain its second (dvit?y?) case-ending by 2.3.1 and 2.3.2. Thisexplains sabh?m. But when it means the object it becomes an adjective itmust have the number, gender etc of the object.?The above means that in the P??inian system theproblem of M?dhav which occurs with a finite verb and not with a k?tya-suffixis not solved by the example from Manu. In the sentence cited by Madhav, whichhas a passive-voice, the object is understood as abhihita (by 3.4.69) andnormally its case-ending should be the first one by 2.3.46. I just put the P??inian point of view without anyclaim to its theoretical correctness. The basic problems of the P??inianstandpoint have been dealt with by me in a recent publication on P??ini withstatement of its opponents' standpoints. But I have not yet got a copy of thebook. The problem of accord between the k?tya-endingword and its corresponding noun has often to be faced in Sanskrit. Cf., ?akyama?jalibhi? p?tu? v?t?? ketakagandhina? R?m., Ki?kindh? 28.8. Here too ?akyamis taken to mean the action.My best wishes for all for a happy 2015DB On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 10:14 PM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: Of all the explanations I have received, this one seems most convincing, and especially the example from Manu seems like a good parallel.? Thanks, Hans. Madhav On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: Hi, Madhav. If pr?pyate?is construed as a verb of motion (in the sense ?reach?), the structure has precedents; compare the structure below, which shows that with verbs of motion the goal is not always construed as object in post-Vedic. Of course, the parallel with?labhate?might suggest an interpretation ?obtain?. In that case (i.e., if it is not to be taken as a motion verb), there may be a parallel in late Sanskrit (one of the versions of the Vet?lapa?cavi??ati, perhaps the one edited by Uhle); unfortunately I can?t find the exact reference. sabh?m v? na prave??avyam (Manu 8.13) All the best for the New Year, Hans On 28-Dec-2014, at 7:52, Madhav Deshpande wrote: n a Sanskrit work titled Nity?c?radarpa?a by Brahm?nanda, on p. 2, I see a quotation from Dak?asm?ti: ??????????? ???????????????? ?????: ? ???????????????? ??????????????????????? ????? ?? Here, ?c?r?t pr?pyate svargam is an irregular usage, unless one assumes that the word svarga is somehow used in neuter gender.? With the normal masculine gender of the word svarga, svargam would be an accusative case form, and this does not fit well with the passive verb.? In Marathi, such passive constructions are possible: ?????? (instrumental) ??????? (accusative) ?????? (passive verb).? This usage alternates with a more Sanskrit like passive: ?????? ???? (nom) ??????/????? (nom).? I am wondering if anyone has come across Sanskrit passive (bh?ve) constructions where the object shows up in the accusative case.? Any information or suggestions are appreciated. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 05:07:39 2014 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 14 10:37:39 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question on Sanskrit Syntax In-Reply-To: <1987765109.2931427.1419987800704.JavaMail.yahoo@jws106105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It is not a case of mere word formation according to rules. A causative will be odd with three non-causatives in the verse -- 2 ????s and 1 ????????? Best DB On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 6:33 AM, girish jha wrote: > Dear Indologists, > According to Panini's Grammar it is well advisable that we accept prapyate > as a passive form of causative prapayati .Then it is construed with the > accusative form svargam.It has also been suggested by Prof Cardona. > Girish K. Jha > Professor, > Dept of Sanskrit > Patna University > Patna 800 005 > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Dipak Bhattacharya > *To:* Madhav Deshpande > *Cc:* "indology at list.indology.info" > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:41 PM > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Question on Sanskrit Syntax > > Thanks! But my intention was not one of clarifying the usage but of > drawing attention to the elusive character of the solutions offered. I > never got a satisfactory answer to the problems associated with abhidhaana, > with due respect, even from Pata;njali. > Best > DB > > > > > On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: > > Dear Dipak, > > Thanks for these clarifying comments. The syntax of constructions > with passive forms of ?ak is very complicated. Pata?jali's usage of > "?akyam (neuter nom) c?nena ?vam??s?dibhir api k?ut (fem nom) pratihantum" > in the Mah?bh??ya has generated long debates in the commentaries. With > best wishes, > > Madhav > > On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:22 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya < > dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > 30 12 14 > Dear Colleagues, > Perhaps the P??inian assessment of the case is not exactly what has been > observed here. According to the P??inian system the k?tya-category suffixes > may mean the action or the object (3.4.70). When action is meant by the > suffix in *prave??avyam* it does not affect the object of the active > voice which shall retain its second (dvit?y?) case-ending by 2.3.1 and > 2.3.2. This explains *sabh?m*. But when it means the object it becomes an > adjective it must have the number, gender etc of the object. > The above means that in the P??inian system the problem of M?dhav which > occurs with a finite verb and not with a k?tya-suffix is not solved by the > example from Manu. In the sentence cited by Madhav, which has a > passive-voice, the object is understood as *abhihita *(by 3.4.69) and > normally its case-ending should be the first one by 2.3.46. > I just put the P??inian point of view without any claim to its theoretical > correctness. The basic problems of the P??inian standpoint have been dealt > with by me in a recent publication on P??ini with statement of its > opponents' standpoints. But I have not yet got a copy of the book. > The problem of accord between the *k?tya-*ending word and its > corresponding noun has often to be faced in Sanskrit. Cf., *?akyam > a?jalibhi? p?tu? v?t?? ketakagandhina?* R?m., Ki?kindh? 28.8. Here too > *?akyam* is taken to mean the action. > My best wishes for all for a happy 2015 > DB > > On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 10:14 PM, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: > > Of all the explanations I have received, this one seems most convincing, > and especially the example from Manu seems like a good parallel. Thanks, > Hans. > > Madhav > > On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich > wrote: > > Hi, Madhav. > > If *pr?pyate* is construed as a verb of motion (in the sense ?reach?), > the structure has precedents; compare the structure below, which shows that > with verbs of motion the goal is not always construed as object in > post-Vedic. Of course, the parallel with *labhate* might suggest an > interpretation ?obtain?. In that case (i.e., if it is not to be taken as a > motion verb), there may be a parallel in late Sanskrit (one of the versions > of the Vet?lapa?cavi??ati, perhaps the one edited by Uhle); unfortunately I > can?t find the exact reference. > > sabh?m v? na prave??avyam (Manu 8.13) > > All the best for the New Year, > > Hans > > > On 28-Dec-2014, at 7:52, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > n a Sanskrit work titled Nity?c?radarpa?a by Brahm?nanda, on p. 2, I see > a quotation from Dak?asm?ti: > > ??????????? ???????????????? ?????: ? > ???????????????? ??????????????????????? ????? ?? > > Here, ?c?r?t pr?pyate svargam is an irregular usage, unless one assumes > that the word svarga is somehow used in neuter gender. With the normal > masculine gender of the word svarga, svargam would be an accusative case > form, and this does not fit well with the passive verb. In Marathi, such > passive constructions are possible: ?????? (instrumental) ??????? > (accusative) ?????? (passive verb). This usage alternates with a more > Sanskrit like passive: ?????? ???? (nom) ??????/????? (nom). I am > wondering if anyone has come across Sanskrit passive (bh?ve) constructions > where the object shows up in the accusative case. Any information or > suggestions are appreciated. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics > Department of Asian Languages and Cultures > 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 > The University of Michigan > Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > > > -- > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics > Department of Asian Languages and Cultures > 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 > The University of Michigan > Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > > > -- > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics > Department of Asian Languages and Cultures > 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 > The University of Michigan > Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 08:30:06 2014 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 14 00:30:06 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gUXVlc3Rpb24gb24gU2Fuc2tyaXQgU3ludGF4?= In-Reply-To: <09185f9d-d911-4d65-8d6a-754087703cfb@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Dear Madhav, It does not seem to be a question of syntax to me. Accepting that m has been interposed in svarga aacaaraat** would in my view be the most straightforward solution. Instances of such interposing are not common, but they do exist. For want of time and because I did not record them when I came across them, I cannot give a list, but I do recall coming across them. The one which I am cite at present is svaadum udumbaram (Aitareya-braahma.na 7.15?), appearing where one expects svaadu udumbaram. **svarga aacaaraat would result from svarga.h aacaaraat with the loss of the visarga in sandhi. While preferring lectio difficiliors is justified in many cases, that principle of textual criticism cannot be applied with the same conviction when its application leads to an ungrammatical construction in an otherwise grammatical work. While I have enjoyed reading the subtle grammatical discussions, they all result in making one verse quarter unlike the other three quarters of the verse. It is not probable that the author who writes simple, flowing verses elsewhere would suddenly and in one instance only introduce a rare construction. It is possible that interposing of m occurred only in those situations in which two vowels stood immediately next to each other (as in svaadu udumbaram or svarga aacaaraat) and thus ran counter to the very dominant 'vowel consonant vowel' or 'consonant vowel consonant' feature of Sanskrit sentence constituents. It is also possible that sukham at the end of the fourth quarter exerted influence on the last word of the third quarter and changed it from svarga to svargam, but we do not need to make the problematic svargam reading rest primarily or solety on that possibility. a.a. From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Dec 31 11:43:58 2014 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 14 06:43:58 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0Je+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gUXVlc3Rpb24gb24gU2Fuc2tyaXQgU3ludGF4?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Ashok. On another list (BVP), Dr. H.N. Bhatt pointed out that the N?radasm?ti has the reading ?c?r?t pr?pyate svarga ?c?r?t pr?pyate sukham. This supports the assumption that in this verse, svarga and svargam are most likely oral/scribal variants, and the origin of the reading svargam could be accounted for in the way you have shown the parallel of sv?du(m) udumbaram. Best, Madhav On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 3:30 AM, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > Dear Madhav, > > It does not seem to be a question of syntax to me. Accepting that m has > been interposed in svarga aacaaraat** would in my view be the most > straightforward solution. Instances of such interposing are not common, but > they do exist. For want of time and because I did not record them when I > came across them, I cannot give a list, but I do recall coming across them. > The one which I am cite at present is svaadum udumbaram > (Aitareya-braahma.na 7.15?), appearing where one expects svaadu udumbaram. > > **svarga aacaaraat would result from svarga.h aacaaraat with the loss of > the visarga in sandhi. > > While preferring lectio difficiliors is justified in many cases, that > principle of textual criticism cannot be applied with the same conviction > when its application leads to an ungrammatical construction in an otherwise > grammatical work. > > While I have enjoyed reading the subtle grammatical discussions, they all > result in making one verse quarter unlike the other three quarters of the > verse. It is not probable that the author who writes simple, flowing verses > elsewhere would suddenly and in one instance only introduce a rare > construction. > > It is possible that interposing of m occurred only in those situations in > which two vowels stood immediately next to each other (as in svaadu > udumbaram or svarga aacaaraat) and thus ran counter to the very dominant > 'vowel consonant vowel' or 'consonant vowel consonant' feature of Sanskrit > sentence constituents. > > It is also possible that sukham at the end of the fourth quarter exerted > influence on the last word of the third quarter and changed it from svarga > to svargam, but we do not need to make the problematic svargam reading rest > primarily or solety on that possibility. > > a.a. > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dchakra at hotmail.de Wed Dec 31 14:19:11 2014 From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 14 19:49:11 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Happy New Year 2015 to all ! Message-ID: ?This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.? ? Anandamayi Ma ?Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.? - Paracelsus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Einfr?hlichesneuesJahr2015.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68215 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cardonagj at verizon.net Wed Dec 31 14:31:02 2014 From: cardonagj at verizon.net (George Cardona) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 14 09:31:02 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question on Sanskrit Syntax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <99623303-36F8-4FC8-812F-496AC9A5ABFE@verizon.net> In this context, it may be noted that commentators on Manu 8.13 (sabh?? v? na prave??avya? ?) also read sabh? v? na prave??avy?. Thus Medh?tithi, and Kull?ka remarks medh?tithin? tu sabh? v? na prave??avyeti ?jveva pa?hitam. Doubtless, the apparatus on this verse in Patrick Olivelle?s critical edition, to which I do not have access at the moment, can contribute here. George > On Dec 29, 2014, at 11:11 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: > > Hi, Madhav. > > If pr?pyate is construed as a verb of motion (in the sense ?reach?), the structure has precedents; compare the structure below, which shows that with verbs of motion the goal is not always construed as object in post-Vedic. Of course, the parallel with labhate might suggest an interpretation ?obtain?. In that case (i.e., if it is not to be taken as a motion verb), there may be a parallel in late Sanskrit (one of the versions of the Vet?lapa?cavi??ati, perhaps the one edited by Uhle); unfortunately I can?t find the exact reference. > > sabh?m v? na prave??avyam (Manu 8.13) > > All the best for the New Year, > > Hans > > > On 28-Dec-2014, at 7:52, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: > >> n a Sanskrit work titled Nity?c?radarpa?a by Brahm?nanda, on p. 2, I see a quotation from Dak?asm?ti: >> >> ??????????? ???????????????? ?????: ? >> ???????????????? ??????????????????????? ????? ?? >> >> Here, ?c?r?t pr?pyate svargam is an irregular usage, unless one assumes that the word svarga is somehow used in neuter gender. With the normal masculine gender of the word svarga, svargam would be an accusative case form, and this does not fit well with the passive verb. In Marathi, such passive constructions are possible: ?????? (instrumental) ??????? (accusative) ?????? (passive verb). This usage alternates with a more Sanskrit like passive: ?????? ???? (nom) ??????/????? (nom). I am wondering if anyone has come across Sanskrit passive (bh?ve) constructions where the object shows up in the accusative case. Any information or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics >> Department of Asian Languages and Cultures >> 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 >> The University of Michigan >> Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhakgirish at yahoo.com Wed Dec 31 14:54:46 2014 From: jhakgirish at yahoo.com (girish jha) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 14 14:54:46 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question on Sanskrit Syntax Message-ID: <353484225.3120415.1420037686200.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Dear Indologists,According to Panini's Grammar it is well advisable that we accept prapyate? as a passive form of causative? Prapayati.Then it is construed with the accusative form svargam.It has also suggested?by Prof Cardona.Girish K. JhaProfessor Dept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna: India -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Wed Dec 31 15:31:12 2014 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 14 09:31:12 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Question on Sanskrit Syntax In-Reply-To: <857A3FF0-2E71-4CC7-BD66-B11731F0E44D@uts.cc.utexas.edu> Message-ID: Sorry, looks like my earlier message went only to George. Here it is for all. Patrick Begin forwarded message: > From: Patrick Olivelle > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Question on Sanskrit Syntax > Date: December 31, 2014 9:16:38 AM CST > To: George Cardona > > In response to George, actually my critical edition (as also that of Jolly) have the reading of Medh?tithi. The other reading is found in the later and northern manuscripts; the important southern transmission in Grantha, Telugu, and Malayalam script manuscripts have Medh's reading; and so do medieval authors such as Vij??ne?vara, Apar?rka, and Deva??abha??a. Here are the manuscripts recording sabh? v? na prave??avy? in my note (the small letter in front of the sigla indicate the script): > > The reading adopted is supported by Me and Go. The alternate is given by Ku and Rn, but Ku acknowledges the correctness of Me's reading: medh?tithin? tu sabh? v? na prave??avy? iti r?jv eva pa?hitam. This reading is found in: Bo Ho Hy Jo2 nKt4 Lo1 Lo3 gMd1 tMd3 gMd5 gMy sOx1 nPu1 Pu2 Pu4 Pu5 sPu6 Pu7 Pu8 Tj1 Tj2 Tr1 Tr2 mTr4 mTr5 mTr6 Wa [Jolly M G N R Nd] Vij Apa Dev Jha Jolly. Cf. NSm M? 3.9 > > Best, > > Patrick > > > > On Dec 31, 2014, at 8:31 AM, George Cardona wrote: > >> In this context, it may be noted that commentators on Manu 8.13 (sabh?? v? na prave??avya? ?) also read sabh? v? na prave??avy?. Thus Medh?tithi, and Kull?ka remarks medh?tithin? tu sabh? v? na prave??avyeti ?jveva pa?hitam. Doubtless, the apparatus on this verse in Patrick Olivelle?s critical edition, to which I do not have access at the moment, can contribute here. George >>> On Dec 29, 2014, at 11:11 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: >>> >>> Hi, Madhav. >>> >>> If pr?pyate is construed as a verb of motion (in the sense ?reach?), the structure has precedents; compare the structure below, which shows that with verbs of motion the goal is not always construed as object in post-Vedic. Of course, the parallel with labhate might suggest an interpretation ?obtain?. In that case (i.e., if it is not to be taken as a motion verb), there may be a parallel in late Sanskrit (one of the versions of the Vet?lapa?cavi??ati, perhaps the one edited by Uhle); unfortunately I can?t find the exact reference. >>> >>> sabh?m v? na prave??avyam (Manu 8.13) >>> >>> All the best for the New Year, >>> >>> Hans >>> >>> >>> On 28-Dec-2014, at 7:52, Madhav Deshpande wrote: >>> >>>> n a Sanskrit work titled Nity?c?radarpa?a by Brahm?nanda, on p. 2, I see a quotation from Dak?asm?ti: >>>> >>>> ??????????? ???????????????? ?????: ? >>>> ???????????????? ??????????????????????? ????? ?? >>>> >>>> Here, ?c?r?t pr?pyate svargam is an irregular usage, unless one assumes that the word svarga is somehow used in neuter gender. With the normal masculine gender of the word svarga, svargam would be an accusative case form, and this does not fit well with the passive verb. In Marathi, such passive constructions are possible: ?????? (instrumental) ??????? (accusative) ?????? (passive verb). This usage alternates with a more Sanskrit like passive: ?????? ???? (nom) ??????/????? (nom). I am wondering if anyone has come across Sanskrit passive (bh?ve) constructions where the object shows up in the accusative case. Any information or suggestions are appreciated. >>>> >>>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>>> Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics >>>> Department of Asian Languages and Cultures >>>> 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 >>>> The University of Michigan >>>> Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Wed Dec 31 16:16:23 2014 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 14 08:16:23 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gUXVlc3Rpb24gb24gU2Fuc2tyaXQgU3ludGF4?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perhaps it?s worth remarking that in South Indian languages except Kannada, the borrowed (tatsama) forms of Sanskrit nouns ending in -a, whether masculine or neuter, end in -am (amu in Telugu). Thus Tamil/Malayalam svargam (corkkam more commonly in Tamil). The verse is an extremely simple one and might have been composed by someone whose Sanskrit was rudimentary, or the -am could have been introduced by a copyist who was used to saying ?svargam.? There are many Manipravalam documents in both Tamil and Malayalam where the distinction between the original Sanskrit and the tatsamas pretty much disappears and Dravidian endings are added to Sanskrit and vice versa. George Hart > On Dec 31, 2014, at 3:43 AM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > Thanks, Ashok. On another list (BVP), Dr. H.N. Bhatt pointed out that the N?radasm?ti has the reading ?c?r?t pr?pyate svarga ?c?r?t pr?pyate sukham. This supports the assumption that in this verse, svarga and svargam are most likely oral/scribal variants, and the origin of the reading svargam could be accounted for in the way you have shown the parallel of sv?du(m) udumbaram. Best, > > Madhav > > On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 3:30 AM, Ashok Aklujkar > wrote: > Dear Madhav, > > It does not seem to be a question of syntax to me. Accepting that m has been interposed in svarga aacaaraat** would in my view be the most straightforward solution. Instances of such interposing are not common, but they do exist. For want of time and because I did not record them when I came across them, I cannot give a list, but I do recall coming across them. The one which I am cite at present is svaadum udumbaram (Aitareya-braahma.na 7.15?), appearing where one expects svaadu udumbaram. > > **svarga aacaaraat would result from svarga.h aacaaraat with the loss of the visarga in sandhi. > > While preferring lectio difficiliors is justified in many cases, that principle of textual criticism cannot be applied with the same conviction when its application leads to an ungrammatical construction in an otherwise grammatical work. > > While I have enjoyed reading the subtle grammatical discussions, they all result in making one verse quarter unlike the other three quarters of the verse. It is not probable that the author who writes simple, flowing verses elsewhere would suddenly and in one instance only introduce a rare construction. > > It is possible that interposing of m occurred only in those situations in which two vowels stood immediately next to each other (as in svaadu udumbaram or svarga aacaaraat) and thus ran counter to the very dominant 'vowel consonant vowel' or 'consonant vowel consonant' feature of Sanskrit sentence constituents. > > It is also possible that sukham at the end of the fourth quarter exerted influence on the last word of the third quarter and changed it from svarga to svargam, but we do not need to make the problematic svargam reading rest primarily or solety on that possibility. > > a.a. > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > -- > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics > Department of Asian Languages and Cultures > 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 > The University of Michigan > Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: