From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Fri Nov 1 08:47:04 2013 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 13 08:47:04 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Meaning_of_Pa=E1=B9=ADa=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED07F6735@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> It may not be entirely out of place to recall the significance of the pa?a in the sacred arts of medieval Buddhism, and, I suppose, other religious communities as well. I have written on this in ?Weaving the World: The Ritual Art of the Pa?a in P?la Buddhism and Its Legacy in Tibet?. In History of Religions 34/3 (1995), pp. 241-262. My reason for bringing this up in this context is that so much of the emphasis in the materials I studied was on the pa?a, the canvas, itself, its ritualized production and sacred status. It seems not likely that this was just forgotten in juridical contexts, and so it may have been the case that a land-grant, edict, or contract written on a pa?a was in some sense sanctified, though here I am just speculating. Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 12:26:35 2013 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 13 13:26:35 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Fwd:__Pata=C3=B1jali's_syntax?= Message-ID: George Cardona sent me the following clarifications in the *karma?i gha?*issue, that I reproduce with his kind permission:? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: George Cardona Date: 31 October 2013 21:24 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Pata?jali's syntax To: Dominik Wujastyk Dear Dominik, Not just Kaiya?a but also other commentators take *mleccha *of *mleccho ha v? e?a yad apa?abda?* to be a derivate with *gha?* signifying a karman. And clearly they mean to derive the term from *mlech* with *gha?* in accordance with *akartari ca k?rake sa?j??y?m*. They also derive *mleccha* of *mlecch? m? bh?ma* from the same base, but with agentive *ac* (*nandigrahipac?dibhyo lyu?inyaca?*). Thus, *mleccha* refers first to a term (*?abda*) that is indistinctly/incorrectly uttered, then to the speakers who utter such indistinct terms. Pata?jali explains that *apa?abda *refers to what is commonly known as a mleccha. That is, emphasis here is on incorrect speech (*apa?abda*) in the phonic aspect, identified with the indistinct speech of the Mleccha ('barbarian' if you will), as is clear from the ?atapathabr?hma?a passage comparable to the present Bh??ya passage. I think The S?ktiratn?kara and others got this right. The contested issue of the syntax is, to my mind. not so clear as some have made it. ?[...] I don't know whether this is an improvement, but it my two cents for the moment. Yours, George On Oct 31, 2013, at 8:08 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: I'm still nagging at what Kaiya?a means by "karma?i gha?". My present best idea is that he's invoking P.3.3.19 *akartari ca k?rake sa?j??y?m*. This implies an origin from *mlich*, which is odd, but can be ignored, I think. So "*mleccha*" is the recipient of the action. This may explain the future pass. part. that N?ge?a uses, *nindy?* "to *be* blamed" (passive). *Mleccha * = "despicable", i.e., it is the *recipient* of criticism. And P.3.3.19 makes "*mleccha*" a *sa?j??*, which is right too. (I don't believe that P. meant *ca* to negate *sa?j??y?m*, even if this *gha?* is desired in non-* sa?j??* cases.) I hope someone can improve on this :-) Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdj at austin.utexas.edu Fri Nov 1 12:57:25 2013 From: drdj at austin.utexas.edu (Donald R Davis) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 13 12:57:25 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Meaning_of_Pa=E1=B9=ADa=3F?= In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED07F6735@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: Thank you all very much for clarifying pa?a for me. The unanimous consensus, public and private, is for cloth of some kind (which is in line with the medieval dharma commentators), likely cotton or possibly silk. It remains curious to me that not a single example seems to have survived, even very late, of a royal decree on such a cloth, but the evidence is overwhelming from the early observations of Nearchos, to the related terms in Indic and Dravidian, to the clear and surviving examples in ritual contexts. Best regards, Don From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Matthew Kapstein Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 3:47 AM To: Rajam; Lubin, Tim Cc: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Meaning of Pa?a? It may not be entirely out of place to recall the significance of the pa?a in the sacred arts of medieval Buddhism, and, I suppose, other religious communities as well. I have written on this in ?Weaving the World: The Ritual Art of the Pa?a in P?la Buddhism and Its Legacy in Tibet?. In History of Religions 34/3 (1995), pp. 241-262. My reason for bringing this up in this context is that so much of the emphasis in the materials I studied was on the pa?a, the canvas, itself, its ritualized production and sacred status. It seems not likely that this was just forgotten in juridical contexts, and so it may have been the case that a land-grant, edict, or contract written on a pa?a was in some sense sanctified, though here I am just speculating. Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From francois.voegeli at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 09:45:25 2013 From: francois.voegeli at gmail.com (Francois Voegeli) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 13 10:45:25 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Help_on_=C5=9AulbS_needed?= Message-ID: <76E43133-7C4D-4701-AD60-6AD45F7E8915@gmail.com> Dear Members of the List, I can't make much sense of a passage of the commentary of Dv?rakan?thayajvan on Baudh?ulbS 1.67 (in the edition of Thibaut revised by Satyaprakash & Sharma, New Delhi [Research Institute of Ancient Scientific Studies], 1968, p. 62-63). It describes the way in which the Anv?h?ryapacana fire should be measured. Baudh?ulbS 1.67 runs thus: aayaamat.rtiiyena trii.ni caturasraa.ny anuuciinaani kaarayed aparasyottarasyaa;m ?ro.nyaa.m gaarhapatyas tasyaiva dak.si.ne ';mse 'nvaahaaryapacana.h puurvasyottare ';msa aahavaniiya iti The part of the commentary of this suutra which causes difficulties to me is: tasyaivaaparasya [sc. caturasrasya] dak.si.ne '.mse 'nvaahaaryapacanamadhya;sa:nku.h | ma.n.dala.m caturasra.m cikiir.sann[*] ityaadinaaniitanavatilasahitaikavi.m;satya:ngulacaturasradvikara.nyaa catustilasahitatri.m;sada:ngalayo [sic! read ?a:ngulayo] samacaturasra.m k.rtvaa ma.n.dala.m k.rtvaa dak.si.navihaaravi.skambham catustri.m;sada:ngulayo da;sa tilaa;s ca | dak.si.navihaaramadhye ;sa:nkor uttarato vi.skambhacaturbhaagamaatre ;sa:nku.m sthaapayitvaa tasmin vi.skambhaardha.m pratimucya ma.n.dala.m parilikhya ma.n.dalamadhye praakpratiicii.m spandyaa.m niyamyaanuspandya.m lekhaam aalikhya uttaraardha.m tyajet so 'nvaahaaryapacana.h [* this is Baudh?ulbS 1.59: ma.m.dala.m [sic!] caturasasra.m cikiir.san vi.skambham a.s.tau bhaagaan k.rtvaa bhaagam ekonatri;m;sadhaa vibhajyaa.s.taavi;m;satibhaagaan uddhared bhaagasya ca .sa.stham a.s.tamabhaagonam] It seems to me that the problem has to do with squaring the circle, but what I don't understand at all in this passage is the sentence: aaniitanavatilasahitaikavi.m;satya:ngulacaturasradvikara.nyaa [?] dak.si.navihaaravi.skambham catustri.m;sada:ngulayo da;sa tilaa;s ca. Help with a translation of the whole much welcomed! Yours sincerely, Dr Fran?ois Voegeli Senior FNS Researcher Institut d'Arch?ologie et des Sciences de l'Antiquit? Anthropole, bureau 4018 Facult? des Lettres Universit? de Lausanne CH-1015 Lausanne From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Mon Nov 4 16:54:49 2013 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 13 16:54:49 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Introducing Jainism Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED07F6D0B@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Dear friends, I will shortly be teaching an introduction to Jainism, though this is not at all my field. If any of you have taught such a course before and have syllabi you might share with me, I would be most grateful. I think that I am familiar with most of the books one might choose to use in this context, but I would be most interested in any remarks on your experiences with the texts you have used in class. References to articles and more obscure sources that you have found useful would be most appreciated as well. I am not at all familiar with pertinent audio-visual resources and would welcome recommendations, if such materials are available. with thanks in advance for your suggestions, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Nov 5 07:34:56 2013 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 13 08:34:56 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Geschichte der Germanistik In-Reply-To: <61E62FD1-2B94-4EE5-A6F5-036E44CD49B8@columbia.edu> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sheldon Pollock Date: 5 November 2013 04:04 Subject: Geschichte der Germanistik ?Dear colleagues, The journal Geschichte der Germanistik, which now bears the subtitle "Historische Zeitschrift f?r die Philologien," aims to publish a yearly bibliography for a variety of traditions, including South Asian. Information about books and articles that deal with South Asian philology broadly conceived (and including Fachgeschichte) should be sent to ?me, ? Sheldon Pollock, spollock at columbia.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de Tue Nov 5 15:54:31 2013 From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 13 15:54:31 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #425 Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D943FC6C28D@UM-excdag-a02.um.gwdg.de> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Isvarakrsna: Samkhyakarika, with Samkara arya's Jayamangala commentary: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#IkSkarJay Kalidasa: Meghaduta: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#KalMeghDe Kalidasa: Meghaduta, according to Vallabha's commentary: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#KalMeghVal __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm From klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi Fri Nov 8 11:43:01 2013 From: klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 13 13:43:01 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Epigraphia Indica Message-ID: <6FF0C7C0-DCDC-4475-B23D-6B8ECC377B8B@helsinki.fi> Dear Colleagues, could anybody scan and send me a short article by D. C. Sircar & K. G. Krishan in Ep. Indica 34, 1961-62 (1963), pages 20-22, on a Nagarjunakonda inscription. Our library has only volumes 1 to 33 and from net I find only earlier volumes. Thanks, Klaus Klaus Karttunen South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi Fri Nov 8 12:45:54 2013 From: klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 13 14:45:54 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] EI Message-ID: <3C7D17AF-498A-4C48-A6AE-CC2DF28CB306@helsinki.fi> My thanks to Emmanuel Francis and Dmitriy N. Lielukhine. Best, Klaus Klaus Karttunen South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ajit.gargeshwari at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 03:31:18 2013 From: ajit.gargeshwari at gmail.com (Ajit Gargeshwari) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 13 09:01:18 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 10, Issue 5 Message-ID: The requested volume Epigraphia Indica is available at DLI for a free download. epigraphia indica vol.34., 99999990010445. sircar, d.c.. 1961. english. epigraphy, india. 554 pgs. Regards Ajit Gargeshwari ? ????? ??????? ?? ??????????? ?????? ????? ?? ? ????? ??? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ? ?????? ???????? ???????2.20?? Today's Topics: > > 1. Epigraphia Indica (Klaus Karttunen) > 2. EI (Klaus Karttunen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 13:43:01 +0200 > From: Klaus Karttunen > To: Indology > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Epigraphia Indica > Message-ID: <6FF0C7C0-DCDC-4475-B23D-6B8ECC377B8B at helsinki.fi> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Dear Colleagues, > > could anybody scan and send me a short article by D. C. Sircar & K. G. > Krishan in Ep. Indica 34, 1961-62 (1963), pages 20-22, on a Nagarjunakonda > inscription. Our library has only volumes 1 to 33 and from net I find only > earlier volumes. > > Thanks, > Klaus > > Klaus Karttunen > South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies > Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures > PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) > 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND > Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 > Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 > Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi > > > - > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au Sat Nov 9 22:27:57 2013 From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 13 22:27:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question about death of Shalya in Mbh Message-ID: Dear colleagues Our respected Javanist Professor George Quinn posed this question about the javelin that killed Shalya. Can anyone help with this? Please reply to George.Quinn at anu.edu.au Thanks in advance McComas == Dear McComas, Do you know off-hand whether a mantra or sacred weapon or sacred book called "Kali Maha Usadhha" or "Kalimahosaddha" appears anywhere in the Indian Mahabharata. In Javanese tradition it is a powerful, sacred book possessed by Yudhistira which, in characteristic Javanese fashion, turns into an irresistible javelin used by Yudhistira to kill King Salya towards the end of the great war. Is this sacred heirloom/weapon a purely Javanese invention, or does it appear in the Indian Mahabharata? With thanks. Yours, George -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 15:53:24 2013 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 13 16:53:24 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] South Asia Institute being formed at SOAS (and job advert) Message-ID: Deputy Director of SOAS South Asia Institute and Senior Lecturer/Reader in Contemporary Indian Studies *SOAS, University of London* -South Asia Institute *Senior Lecturer: ?48,075 - ?55,367 p.a inclusive of London Allowance * *Vacancy No: 000584* SOAS, University of London (School of Oriental and African Studies) will launch the SOAS South Asia Institute (SAI) in 2014. The SAI will be at the forefront of a major strategic initiative, designed to confirm and strengthen the position of SOAS as the UK?s foremost centre of research, teaching, and outreach with reference to South Asia. The Institute will be an interdisciplinary knowledge hub bringing together the expertise of one of the largest communities of South Asia scholars housed under one roof in the Western world. It will promote independent, critical analysis, provide new and exciting opportunities for postgraduate training and postdoctoral research, and produce scholarly work of the highest international quality. Further ... - http://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/AHO687/deputy-director-of-soas-south-asia-institute-and-senior-lecturer-reader-in-contemporary-indian-studies/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de Mon Nov 11 18:42:55 2013 From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 13 18:42:55 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vrataratnakara of Ranavira / Ranavirasimha? Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D943FC6DF18@UM-excdag-a02.um.gwdg.de> I'd be much obliged for any information concerning the following multi-volume work, published around 1941-42: Author: Ra?av?ra, or Ra?av?rasi?ha(r?ja) Title:Vrataratn?kara Printed by the Raghunathamudrayantralaya (place unknown) For preliminary catalogue data of the three volumes with this title see here: https://opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de/DB=1.BBK/FAM?PPN=77111947X These three volumes came together with two others, "Pr?ya?cittabh?ga" and "Jyotirmah?nibandha", both without title pages. Therefore I'm not sure whether they are also part of the Vrataratnakara. Further information on the author and the relation between the above parts would be welcome. [Is he the Kashmiri king who sponsored the Krtyaratnakara, perhaps?] I've checked the NCC, the printed India Office Catalogue (Sanskrit Works) and Kane's History of Dharmasastra, without success. The DIL seems to have electronic versions, but its catalogue data are not very helpful. Many thanks in advance Reinhold Gr?nendahl From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Mon Nov 11 19:09:34 2013 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 13 13:09:34 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vrataratnakara of Ranavira / Ranavirasimha? In-Reply-To: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D943FC6DF18@UM-excdag-a02.um.gwdg.de> Message-ID: <89D31A7D-D71A-41D3-BE24-D07D5D505EA3@uts.cc.utexas.edu> The Sm?tiratn?kara was authored by Ca??e?vara (Kane, Vol 1, section 91. His father was V?re?vara. I am, of course, unsure whether we are dealing with the same text. Patrick On Nov 11, 2013, at 12:42 PM, "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" wrote: > I'd be much obliged for any information concerning the following multi-volume work, published around 1941-42: > > Author: Ra?av?ra, or Ra?av?rasi?ha(r?ja) > Title:Vrataratn?kara > Printed by the Raghunathamudrayantralaya (place unknown) > > For preliminary catalogue data of the three volumes with this title see here: > https://opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de/DB=1.BBK/FAM?PPN=77111947X > > These three volumes came together with two others, "Pr?ya?cittabh?ga" and "Jyotirmah?nibandha", both without title pages. Therefore I'm not sure whether they are also part of the Vrataratnakara. > > > Further information on the author and the relation between the above parts would be welcome. [Is he the Kashmiri king who sponsored the Krtyaratnakara, perhaps?] > > I've checked the NCC, the printed India Office Catalogue (Sanskrit Works) and Kane's History of Dharmasastra, without success. > The DIL seems to have electronic versions, but its catalogue data are not very helpful. > > Many thanks in advance > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info From james.stewart at lankamail.com Mon Nov 11 19:52:14 2013 From: james.stewart at lankamail.com (James Stewart) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 13 06:52:14 +1100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Identifying deities Message-ID: I was hoping that someone could help me identify the deities in the attached document. I believe that they are associated with the Kiri Amma cult in Sri Lanka which is in turn associated with Pattini. How this relates to the actual image I'm not sure. Any help would be greatly appreciated. -- James Stewart PhD Researcher University of Tasmania Website: http://srilankaobserver.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SKMBT_C25312112611540.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 506312 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu Mon Nov 11 19:58:51 2013 From: Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu (Michael Slouber) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 13 19:58:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Identifying deities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perhaps they are given different names in Sri Lanka, but this image shows Shiva and Parvati above, with Kamadhenu (the wish-fulfilling cow) flowing with milk upon the Shiva-linga. ?? Michael Slouber Visiting Assistant Professor of South Asia Department of Liberal Studies Western Washington University On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:52 AM, James Stewart wrote: > I was hoping that someone could help me identify the deities in the attached document. I believe that they are associated with the Kiri Amma cult in Sri Lanka which is in turn associated with Pattini. How this relates to the actual image I'm not sure. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > -- > James Stewart PhD > Researcher > University of Tasmania > Website: http://srilankaobserver.org > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info From rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Mon Nov 11 20:14:16 2013 From: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk (Rohana Seneviratne) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 13 20:14:16 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Identifying deities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B0D169F@MBX03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> As Michael rightly says, these are Siva and Parvati with Kamadhenu. However, as far as I know as a Sri Lankan, there is no direct relation of Siva and Parvati to Kiriamma cult. 'The cult of the goddess Pattini' by Gananath Obeyesekere may provide details. Best Wishes, Rohana ------------------------------------------------ Rohana Seneviratne DPhil Student in Sanskrit The Oriental Institute Faculty of Oriental Studies University of Oxford Pusey Lane, Oxford OX1 2LE United Kingdom Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/ ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of James Stewart [james.stewart at lankamail.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:52 PM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Identifying deities I was hoping that someone could help me identify the deities in the attached document. I believe that they are associated with the Kiri Amma cult in Sri Lanka which is in turn associated with Pattini. How this relates to the actual image I'm not sure. Any help would be greatly appreciated. -- James Stewart PhD Researcher University of Tasmania Website: http://srilankaobserver.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Mon Nov 11 20:22:17 2013 From: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk (Rohana Seneviratne) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 13 20:22:17 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vrataratnakara of Ranavira / Ranavirasimha? In-Reply-To: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D943FC6DF18@UM-excdag-a02.um.gwdg.de> Message-ID: <263AADEB1C61774CB059F93BD3A6940B0D16AF@MBX03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Dear Reinhold, I downloaded the following PDFs from DLI for you. Hope they may help you at least into some extent. VR - Pausamasa-prarambhah (530 pages - The colophon reads 'ranavirasimhakrte...krtyaratnakare' VR - Bhadrapadamasa-prarambhah (735 pages) VR - Grantha Prarambha (2023 pages) Please download them from here. I put them on Oxford file sharing server. https://oxfile.ox.ac.uk/oxfile/work/extBox?id=111985DC2BD041C8C4 Best Wishes, Rohana ------------------------------------------------ Rohana Seneviratne DPhil Student in Sanskrit The Oriental Institute Faculty of Oriental Studies University of Oxford Pusey Lane, Oxford OX1 2LE United Kingdom Email: rohana.seneviratne at orinst.ox.ac.uk Web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~pemb3753/ ________________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Gruenendahl, Reinhold [gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 6:42 PM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vrataratnakara of Ranavira / Ranavirasimha? I'd be much obliged for any information concerning the following multi-volume work, published around 1941-42: Author: Ra?av?ra, or Ra?av?rasi?ha(r?ja) Title:Vrataratn?kara Printed by the Raghunathamudrayantralaya (place unknown) For preliminary catalogue data of the three volumes with this title see here: https://opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de/DB=1.BBK/FAM?PPN=77111947X These three volumes came together with two others, "Pr?ya?cittabh?ga" and "Jyotirmah?nibandha", both without title pages. Therefore I'm not sure whether they are also part of the Vrataratnakara. Further information on the author and the relation between the above parts would be welcome. [Is he the Kashmiri king who sponsored the Krtyaratnakara, perhaps?] I've checked the NCC, the printed India Office Catalogue (Sanskrit Works) and Kane's History of Dharmasastra, without success. The DIL seems to have electronic versions, but its catalogue data are not very helpful. Many thanks in advance Reinhold Gr?nendahl _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 03:11:57 2013 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 13 08:41:57 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 10, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I need english translation (downlodable format) of Chatruvarga Chintamani, especially the Raj Prashasti. Rupali Mokashi On Nov 12, 2013 1:22 AM, wrote: > Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to > indology at list.indology.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > indology-request at list.indology.info > > You can reach the person managing the list at > indology-owner at list.indology.info > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Vrataratnakara of Ranavira / Ranavirasimha? > (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) > 2. Re: Vrataratnakara of Ranavira / Ranavirasimha? (Patrick Olivelle) > 3. Identifying deities (James Stewart) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:42:55 +0000 > From: "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" > To: "indology at list.indology.info" > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vrataratnakara of Ranavira / Ranavirasimha? > Message-ID: > <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D943FC6DF18 at UM-excdag-a02.um.gwdg.de > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I'd be much obliged for any information concerning the following > multi-volume work, published around 1941-42: > > Author: Ra?av?ra, or Ra?av?rasi?ha(r?ja) > Title:Vrataratn?kara > Printed by the Raghunathamudrayantralaya (place unknown) > > For preliminary catalogue data of the three volumes with this title see > here: > https://opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de/DB=1.BBK/FAM?PPN=77111947X > > These three volumes came together with two others, "Pr?ya?cittabh?ga" and > "Jyotirmah?nibandha", both without title pages. Therefore I'm not sure > whether they are also part of the Vrataratnakara. > > > Further information on the author and the relation between the above parts > would be welcome. [Is he the Kashmiri king who sponsored the > Krtyaratnakara, perhaps?] > > I've checked the NCC, the printed India Office Catalogue (Sanskrit Works) > and Kane's History of Dharmasastra, without success. > The DIL seems to have electronic versions, but its catalogue data are not > very helpful. > > Many thanks in advance > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 13:09:34 -0600 > From: Patrick Olivelle > To: "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" > Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vrataratnakara of Ranavira / Ranavirasimha? > Message-ID: <89D31A7D-D71A-41D3-BE24-D07D5D505EA3 at uts.cc.utexas.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > The Sm?tiratn?kara was authored by Ca??e?vara (Kane, Vol 1, section 91. > His father was V?re?vara. I am, of course, unsure whether we are dealing > with the same text. > > Patrick > > > > On Nov 11, 2013, at 12:42 PM, "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" < > gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de> wrote: > > > I'd be much obliged for any information concerning the following > multi-volume work, published around 1941-42: > > > > Author: Ra?av?ra, or Ra?av?rasi?ha(r?ja) > > Title:Vrataratn?kara > > Printed by the Raghunathamudrayantralaya (place unknown) > > > > For preliminary catalogue data of the three volumes with this title see > here: > > https://opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de/DB=1.BBK/FAM?PPN=77111947X > > > > These three volumes came together with two others, "Pr?ya?cittabh?ga" > and "Jyotirmah?nibandha", both without title pages. Therefore I'm not sure > whether they are also part of the Vrataratnakara. > > > > > > Further information on the author and the relation between the above > parts would be welcome. [Is he the Kashmiri king who sponsored the > Krtyaratnakara, perhaps?] > > > > I've checked the NCC, the printed India Office Catalogue (Sanskrit > Works) and Kane's History of Dharmasastra, without success. > > The DIL seems to have electronic versions, but its catalogue data are > not very helpful. > > > > Many thanks in advance > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:52:14 +1100 > From: James Stewart > To: indology at list.indology.info > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Identifying deities > Message-ID: > < > CAH46kmjycN8a564HYCQ2uUV966n8bxg-wciu8b3Fbju21nVTzA at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I was hoping that someone could help me identify the deities in the > attached document. I believe that they are associated with the Kiri Amma > cult in Sri Lanka which is in turn associated with Pattini. How this > relates to the actual image I'm not sure. Any help would be greatly > appreciated. > > -- > James Stewart PhD > Researcher > University of Tasmania > Website: http://srilankaobserver.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Wed Nov 13 10:18:56 2013 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 10:18:56 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED07F8A1D@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Dear friends, Does anyone have some instructions for the use of the microsoft Sanskrit keyboard? It's easy enough to work out the basic consonant + vowel combinations, but I've not so far had much success with conjunct consonants. Any advice will be gratefully received. thanks in advance, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From charlesdisimone at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 10:24:50 2013 From: charlesdisimone at gmail.com (Charles DiSimone) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 11:24:50 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED07F8A1D@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: Dear Matthew, While I can't speak for Windows (the last I used an MS OS was XP), Google has developed some very intuitive input tools for multiple languages. Apparently, there's an offline version specifically for Windows. http://www.google.com/inputtools/ Best wishes, charlie On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > Dear friends, > > Does anyone have some instructions for the use of the microsoft Sanskrit > keyboard? It's > easy enough to work out the basic consonant + vowel combinations, but I've > not so > far had much success with conjunct consonants. Any advice will be > gratefully received. > > thanks in advance, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- Charles DiSimone Promotionsprogramm Buddhismus-Studien Department of Indology and Tibetology Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t, M?nchen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.hartzell at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 10:27:12 2013 From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 11:27:12 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED07F8A1D@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: Hi Matthew For conjunct consonants, the 'f' key used between consnants works well for many conjunct consonants, including multiples of 3 etc. il. g f y in sequence gives you gya etc. hope this is useful cheers On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > Dear friends, > > Does anyone have some instructions for the use of the microsoft Sanskrit > keyboard? It's > easy enough to work out the basic consonant + vowel combinations, but I've > not so > far had much success with conjunct consonants. Any advice will be > gratefully received. > > thanks in advance, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- James Hartzell, PhD Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) The University of Trento, Italy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbelle at alumni.ubc.ca Wed Nov 13 11:07:52 2013 From: tbelle at alumni.ubc.ca (Tim Bellefleur) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 16:37:52 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Matthew, There is also an exact clone of the straightforward Mac OS X "Devanagari-QWERTY" keyboard layout that I ported to Windows several years ago. It's available for download at http://www.ubcsanskrit.ca/keyboards.html, which also includes instructions and images for the layout. ?Regards? On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:57 PM, James Hartzell wrote: > Hi Matthew > > > For conjunct consonants, the 'f' key used between consnants works well for > many conjunct consonants, including multiples of 3 etc. > il. g f y in sequence gives you gya etc. > hope this is useful > cheers > > > > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > >> Dear friends, >> >> Does anyone have some instructions for the use of the microsoft Sanskrit >> keyboard? It's >> easy enough to work out the basic consonant + vowel combinations, but >> I've not so >> far had much success with conjunct consonants. Any advice will be >> gratefully received. >> >> thanks in advance, >> Matthew >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > > > -- > James Hartzell, PhD > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) > The University of Trento, Italy > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eli at gnumonks.org Wed Nov 13 12:05:54 2013 From: eli at gnumonks.org (=?utf-8?Q?Elisabeth_Steinbr=C3=BCckner?=) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 13:05:54 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Notification - Symposium on the History of the Kushans, Berlin 5.-7.12.2013 Message-ID: <52836B22.2050602@gnumonks.org> Notification On the three days December 5 (Thursday) to 7 (Saturday) of December 2013 we organize a Symposium on the literary sources of the political history of the Kushans at the Conference Center at the Seminaris Hotel, Berlin Dahlem every day from 9 h until 17 or 18 h. The event is organised by us, administrated by the Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur, Mainz, and sponsored by the German Research Foundation and the Ernst-Waldschmidt-Stiftung, Berlin. The sources are in Chinese, Bactrian, Indic and classical languages. Their meaning, relevance and interconnection will be discussed by a number of invited guests from many countries, aiming at a comprehensive documentation for future use. In addition, two papers a day will be read pertaining to recent archaeological finds. Interested visitors are welcome, but space is limited. So please indicate your intention to attend, using the email address given below. You will then receive a confirmation together with the final schedule. Harry Falk Elisabeth Steinbr?ckner: eli at gnumonks.org From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Wed Nov 13 13:59:27 2013 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 07:59:27 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <590DAB47-1709-4CF9-A6CC-52388981AC8E@uts.cc.utexas.edu> I also use Mac OS Devanagari-QWERTY" and it works well, but only on Pages. It does not work at all on Word -- if anyone can tell me how to use it in Word, I'd be grateful. For conjuncts, as Tim has said, you type the first consonant, then "f" (vir?ma) and then the second consonant; if there is a third, then you retype "f" and type the third consonant. Uncommon consonant clusters can be accessed by going to "Format" -- Font, Show All Fonts. Then at bottom left click on the pin-wheel and get to Typography. There you will get to click on "Rare Ligatures" Best, Patrick On Nov 13, 2013, at 5:07 AM, Tim Bellefleur wrote: > Hi Matthew, > > There is also an exact clone of the straightforward Mac OS X "Devanagari-QWERTY" keyboard layout that I ported to Windows several years ago. It's available for download at http://www.ubcsanskrit.ca/keyboards.html, which also includes instructions and images for the layout. > > ?Regards? > > > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:57 PM, James Hartzell wrote: > Hi Matthew > > > For conjunct consonants, the 'f' key used between consnants works well for many conjunct consonants, including multiples of 3 etc. > il. g f y in sequence gives you gya etc. > hope this is useful > cheers > > > > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > Dear friends, > > Does anyone have some instructions for the use of the microsoft Sanskrit keyboard? It's > easy enough to work out the basic consonant + vowel combinations, but I've not so > far had much success with conjunct consonants. Any advice will be gratefully received. > > thanks in advance, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > -- > James Hartzell, PhD > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) > The University of Trento, Italy > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ajit.gargeshwari at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 15:02:11 2013 From: ajit.gargeshwari at gmail.com (Ajit Gargeshwari) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 20:32:11 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 10, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Please see the discussions in this thread in samskrit group. I hope you find it useful https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/samskrita/9AX0JDws-DE > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein >wrote: > > > Dear friends, > > > > Does anyone have some instructions for the use of the microsoft Sanskrit > > keyboard? It's > > easy enough to work out the basic consonant + vowel combinations, but > I've > > not so > > far had much success with conjunct consonants. Any advice will be > > gratefully received. > > > > thanks in advance, > > Matthew > > > > Matthew Kapstein > > Directeur d'?tudes, > > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > > The University of Chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 15:20:43 2013 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 16:20:43 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: <590DAB47-1709-4CF9-A6CC-52388981AC8E@uts.cc.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I'm slightly appalled by what I'm hearing about typing "f" in between every conjuncted letter. That must make typing a terrible pain! All our modern operating systems have built-in stuff for making conjuncts automatically by just typing the letters one after another (as in romanization).* I don't understand why MS Win and OS/X users are doing this other, laborious thing. Am I missing something obvious? When I type Devanagari, I type kRSNa and get ?????, kArtsnyam for ????????????? . It's the same whatever program I'm using, because the keyboard/language stuff is handled by the operating system, not each individual program. As far as I know, anyhow. It's handled by software on my system, Ubuntu Linux, called Ibus and m17n (which comes with Devanagari and IAST romanization already pre-defined). Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Wed Nov 13 16:00:44 2013 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 10:00:44 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <725986CD-DFAF-4DC3-A008-2ABAFED6103C@uts.cc.utexas.edu> Dominik: Actually when you get used to it, it is quite fast and simple. In your case you have to use Shift in order to make conjunct, which also includes an extra keystroke. The reason for "f", I assume, is that Devan?gar? assumes the vowel "a" after a consonant, unless there is a vir?ma; and "f" has that function. So, if you really want a vir?ma -- you type the consonant and "f" and give a space. Patrick On Nov 13, 2013, at 9:20 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > I'm slightly appalled by what I'm hearing about typing "f" in between every conjuncted letter. That must make typing a terrible pain! > > All our modern operating systems have built-in stuff for making conjuncts automatically by just typing the letters one after another (as in romanization).* I don't understand why MS Win and OS/X users are doing this other, laborious thing. Am I missing something obvious? > > When I type Devanagari, I type kRSNa and get ?????, kArtsnyam for ????????????? . It's the same whatever program I'm using, because the keyboard/language stuff is handled by the operating system, not each individual program. As far as I know, anyhow. It's handled by software on my system, Ubuntu Linux, called Ibus and m17n (which comes with Devanagari and IAST romanization already pre-defined). > > Dominik > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbelle at alumni.ubc.ca Wed Nov 13 16:12:03 2013 From: tbelle at alumni.ubc.ca (Tim Bellefleur) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 21:42:03 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm inclined to agree, Dominik, even though I've become well-used to the "Devanagari-QWERTY" keyboard and don't really notice its inefficiencies. In any case, it was an oasis of relative sense in the otherwise awfully mired world of Devanagari input several years ago, where Windows input methods were particularly confounding. Google's Input Tools (which Charles DiSimone posted to this thread) have a Sanskrit component which works in a manner very much like you describe your Ubuntu experience. It seems quite nice. They also come in an offline-Windows version. I'm curious if there is something similarly accessible for us Mac users. -Tim On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 8:50 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > I'm slightly appalled by what I'm hearing about typing "f" in between > every conjuncted letter. That must make typing a terrible pain! > > All our modern operating systems have built-in stuff for making conjuncts > automatically by just typing the letters one after another (as in > romanization).* I don't understand why MS Win > and OS/X users are doing this other, laborious thing. Am I missing > something obvious? > > When I type Devanagari, I type kRSNa and get ?????, kArtsnyam for > ????????????? . It's the same whatever program I'm using, because the > keyboard/language stuff is handled by the operating system, not each > individual program. As far as I know, anyhow. It's handled by software on > my system, Ubuntu Linux, called Ibus and m17n (which comes with Devanagari > and IAST romanization already pre-defined). > > Dominik > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RDavidson at fairfield.edu Wed Nov 13 16:32:27 2013 From: RDavidson at fairfield.edu (Davidson, Ronald) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 16:32:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fleet's Gupta Inscriptions Message-ID: Dear List members, I wonder if anyone would have an available pdf of Fleet?s Inscriptions of the Early Gupta Kings and their Successors, CII vol. 3 (1888 with several reprints)? I would prefer one of the later reprints, as I understand there are further observations included, but not the Bhandarkar, Chhabra and Gai revised version of 1981, which is entirely different. Thanking you in advance for your kindness, Ronald Davidson Ronald M. Davidson, Ph.D. Professor of Religious Studies Fairfield University From ambapradeep at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 16:33:32 2013 From: ambapradeep at gmail.com (Amba Kulkarni) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 22:03:32 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It makes sense to absorb 'a', if the language does not have many conjuncts. There is a lot of saving in typing. We write ??? using only three strokes 'kml' instead of 'kamala'. But for a language like Sanskrit which has so many conjuncts, it hardly makes any difference. While you are saving on '?', you are paying with '?'s. I did a small experiment with Bhagvadgeeta. I encoded it with these two different schemes. The one with '?' had only 5% extra characters than the one with '?'. -- Amba Kulkarni On 13 November 2013 20:50, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > I'm slightly appalled by what I'm hearing about typing "f" in between > every conjuncted letter. That must make typing a terrible pain! > > All our modern operating systems have built-in stuff for making conjuncts > automatically by just typing the letters one after another (as in > romanization).* I don't understand why MS Win > and OS/X users are doing this other, laborious thing. Am I missing > something obvious? > > When I type Devanagari, I type kRSNa and get ?????, kArtsnyam for > ????????????? . It's the same whatever program I'm using, because the > keyboard/language stuff is handled by the operating system, not each > individual program. As far as I know, anyhow. It's handled by software on > my system, Ubuntu Linux, called Ibus and m17n (which comes with Devanagari > and IAST romanization already pre-defined). > > Dominik > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- ? ?? ?????: ?????? ????? ??????: ll Let noble thoughts come to us from every side. - Rig Veda, I-89-i. Assoc Prof. and Head Department of Sanskrit Studies University of Hyderabad Prof. C.R. Rao Road Hyderabad-500 046 (91) 040 23133802(off) http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/scl http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/faculty/amba -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.hartzell at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 17:02:39 2013 From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 18:02:39 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: <590DAB47-1709-4CF9-A6CC-52388981AC8E@uts.cc.utexas.edu> Message-ID: In agreement with Patrick's note on Mac Devanagari, I forgot to mention that I've also been using the Devanagari QWERTY in Pages; haven't gotten it to work in Word either. One can of course always type into a Gmail letter using the Devanagari keyboard, which also uses the 'f' key for vir?ma's. In this method the conjunct consonants come out nicely. One can then copy and paste the text in MS-Word. Keep the keyboard set to Devanagari QWERTY, and type one letter into the word document, e.g. ?. Then put the cursor immediately after the ?, and use the Edit, Paste and match formatting. This will take in your Devanagari into Word on the Mac. The problem is that Word 'undoes' the conjuncts and turns, for example, ?????? into something like ??? ?? ?? ?, at least with Devanagri Samgam MN as the font. Might someone know of another font that would keep the conjuncts? Cheers On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > I also use Mac OS Devanagari-QWERTY" and it works well, but only on Pages. > It does not work at all on Word -- if anyone can tell me how to use it in > Word, I'd be grateful. For conjuncts, as Tim has said, you type the first > consonant, then "f" (vir?ma) and then the second consonant; if there is a > third, then you retype "f" and type the third consonant. > > Uncommon consonant clusters can be accessed by going to "Format" -- Font, > Show All Fonts. Then at bottom left click on the pin-wheel and get to > Typography. There you will get to click on "Rare Ligatures" > > Best, > > Patrick > > > > On Nov 13, 2013, at 5:07 AM, Tim Bellefleur wrote: > > Hi Matthew, > > There is also an exact clone of the straightforward Mac OS X > "Devanagari-QWERTY" keyboard layout that I ported to Windows several years > ago. It's available for download at > http://www.ubcsanskrit.ca/keyboards.html, which also includes > instructions and images for the layout. > > ?Regards? > > > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:57 PM, James Hartzell wrote: > >> Hi Matthew >> >> >> For conjunct consonants, the 'f' key used between consnants works well >> for many conjunct consonants, including multiples of 3 etc. >> il. g f y in sequence gives you gya etc. >> hope this is useful >> cheers >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein > > wrote: >> >>> Dear friends, >>> >>> Does anyone have some instructions for the use of the microsoft Sanskrit >>> keyboard? It's >>> easy enough to work out the basic consonant + vowel combinations, but >>> I've not so >>> far had much success with conjunct consonants. Any advice will be >>> gratefully received. >>> >>> thanks in advance, >>> Matthew >>> >>> Matthew Kapstein >>> Directeur d'?tudes, >>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >>> >>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >>> The University of Chicago >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> James Hartzell, PhD >> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) >> The University of Trento, Italy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- James Hartzell, PhD Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) The University of Trento, Italy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RDavidson at fairfield.edu Wed Nov 13 17:19:01 2013 From: RDavidson at fairfield.edu (Davidson, Ronald) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 17:19:01 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fleet's Gupta Inscriptions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Indology List, As others have discovered, this list is a remarkable resource. I thank Jonathan Silk and Tim Lubin for their swift replies to my appeals. Ronald Davidson On 11/13/13, 11:33 AM, "Davidson, Ronald" wrote: >Dear List members, > >I wonder if anyone would have an available pdf of Fleet?s Inscriptions of >the Early Gupta Kings and their Successors, CII vol. 3 (1888 with several >reprints)? I would prefer one of the later reprints, as I understand >there are further observations included, but not the Bhandarkar, Chhabra >and Gai revised version of 1981, which is entirely different. > >Thanking you in advance for your kindness, > >Ronald Davidson > > >Ronald M. Davidson, Ph.D. >Professor of Religious Studies >Fairfield University > > >_______________________________________________ >INDOLOGY mailing list >INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >http://listinfo.indology.info From sellmers at gmx.de Wed Nov 13 17:29:30 2013 From: sellmers at gmx.de (Sven Sellmer) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 18:29:30 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <91E4EBE4-60A2-471E-A5A1-EF922B9D9031@gmx.de> Two years or so ago I wrote to the MS customer service because I couldn't believe that MS Word for Mac is unable to handle Devanagari. They answered quite politely, checked the issue and finally told me that I would have to accept the situation. As far as I can see, MS have not bothered to add this feature in the meantime, which throws some light on their evaluation of the Devanagari market, so to speak. Pages, Open Office, Nisus Writer, even TextEdit have no problem at all. Best wishes, Sven Am 13.11.2013 um 18:02 schrieb James Hartzell : > In agreement with Patrick's note on Mac Devanagari, I forgot to mention that I've also been using the Devanagari QWERTY in Pages; haven't gotten it to work in Word either. > One can of course always type into a Gmail letter using the Devanagari keyboard, which also uses the 'f' key for vir?ma's. In this method the conjunct consonants come out nicely. One can then copy and paste the text in MS-Word. Keep the keyboard set to Devanagari QWERTY, and type one letter into the word document, e.g. ?. Then put the cursor immediately after the ?, and use the Edit, Paste and match formatting. This will take in your Devanagari into Word on the Mac. The problem is that Word 'undoes' the conjuncts and turns, for example, ?????? into something like ??? ?? ?? ?, at least with Devanagri Samgam MN as the font. Might someone know of another font that would keep the conjuncts? > Cheers > > > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > I also use Mac OS Devanagari-QWERTY" and it works well, but only on Pages. It does not work at all on Word -- if anyone can tell me how to use it in Word, I'd be grateful. For conjuncts, as Tim has said, you type the first consonant, then "f" (vir?ma) and then the second consonant; if there is a third, then you retype "f" and type the third consonant. > > Uncommon consonant clusters can be accessed by going to "Format" -- Font, Show All Fonts. Then at bottom left click on the pin-wheel and get to Typography. There you will get to click on "Rare Ligatures" > > Best, > > Patrick > > > > On Nov 13, 2013, at 5:07 AM, Tim Bellefleur wrote: > >> Hi Matthew, >> >> There is also an exact clone of the straightforward Mac OS X "Devanagari-QWERTY" keyboard layout that I ported to Windows several years ago. It's available for download at http://www.ubcsanskrit.ca/keyboards.html, which also includes instructions and images for the layout. >> >> ?Regards? >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:57 PM, James Hartzell wrote: >> Hi Matthew >> >> >> For conjunct consonants, the 'f' key used between consnants works well for many conjunct consonants, including multiples of 3 etc. >> il. g f y in sequence gives you gya etc. >> hope this is useful >> cheers >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: >> Dear friends, >> >> Does anyone have some instructions for the use of the microsoft Sanskrit keyboard? It's >> easy enough to work out the basic consonant + vowel combinations, but I've not so >> far had much success with conjunct consonants. Any advice will be gratefully received. >> >> thanks in advance, >> Matthew >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> >> >> -- >> James Hartzell, PhD >> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) >> The University of Trento, Italy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > -- > James Hartzell, PhD > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) > The University of Trento, Italy > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Nov 13 18:29:23 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 18:29:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: <91E4EBE4-60A2-471E-A5A1-EF922B9D9031@gmx.de> Message-ID: <2E24AB22-B3FF-4958-A9BE-EBDD0400076D@unm.edu> On Nov 13, 2013, at 10:29 , Sven Sellmer > wrote: Two years or so ago I wrote to the MS customer service because I couldn't believe that MS Word for Mac is unable to handle Devanagari. They answered quite politely, checked the issue and finally told me that I would have to accept the situation. Interesting. Must be the Buddhist influence on the folks at MS. -- Richard Hayes Emeritus Department of Philosophy The University of New Mexico -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Wed Nov 13 21:03:03 2013 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 21:03:03 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: <2E24AB22-B3FF-4958-A9BE-EBDD0400076D@unm.edu> Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED07F8BC1@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Thanks, everyone, for your input (no pun intended) on this. Though nothing so far has revealed a perfect fix for devanagari in MS-Word, the hint about the "f" led me to try the virama in the microsoft devanagari keyboard, which is the "d". This worked perfectly. Thus, to type ?????, one just has to type k + d + l + d + /. Easy enough, but perhaps not so intuitive. In any event, it does indeed seem possible to type Sanskrit devanagari in Word without the conjuncts falling apart. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Wed Nov 13 21:55:35 2013 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 21:55:35 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED07F8BC1@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: Does this work on the Mac version of Word? Where would I find the Word keyboard? Still puzzled, Hans Hans Henrich Hock On 13 Nov 2013, at 15:03, Matthew Kapstein wrote: Thanks, everyone, for your input (no pun intended) on this. Though nothing so far has revealed a perfect fix for devanagari in MS-Word, the hint about the "f" led me to try the virama in the microsoft devanagari keyboard, which is the "d". This worked perfectly. Thus, to type ?????, one just has to type k + d + l + d + /. Easy enough, but perhaps not so intuitive. In any event, it does indeed seem possible to type Sanskrit devanagari in Word without the conjuncts falling apart. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Wed Nov 13 22:07:37 2013 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 22:07:37 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED07F8BEF@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Dear Hans, I do not work very much with Mac myself. But, as I recall, it is fairly easy to find and set the language and keyboard options in the recent versions of Mac OS X. I haven't used it enough, however, to know the details of the keyboard layout. Perhaps someone who uses mostly Mac can help you with this. good luck, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Wed Nov 13 22:11:28 2013 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 13 22:11:28 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED07F8BEF@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <21E06465-4611-4E13-B56F-834D1BCEBDDE@illinois.edu> Thanks, Matthew. There does not seem to be a Word-specific keyboard for Nagari. What is there is the general keyboard option provided by the Mac OS, but this doesn't work in Word for Mac. Alack and alas ? Hans Hans Henrich Hock On 13 Nov 2013, at 16:07, Matthew Kapstein wrote: Dear Hans, I do not work very much with Mac myself. But, as I recall, it is fairly easy to find and set the language and keyboard options in the recent versions of Mac OS X. I haven't used it enough, however, to know the details of the keyboard layout. Perhaps someone who uses mostly Mac can help you with this. good luck, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbelle at alumni.ubc.ca Thu Nov 14 06:34:14 2013 From: tbelle at alumni.ubc.ca (Tim Bellefleur) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 13 12:04:14 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: <21E06465-4611-4E13-B56F-834D1BCEBDDE@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Hi everyone, The issue with MS Word for Mac is not so much a problem of input, but a problem of display. Word for Mac uses its own deficient page-rendering engine which won't reliably compose complex Unicode characters like Devanagari conjuncts and the "i" matra. As far as I know, there is no workaround for this, and the issue has persisted through the every new version of Office for Mac. However, the majority of other Mac-specific word processors (Pages, Nisus Writer, and TextEdit, but not LibreOffice/OpenOffice) use Apple's native renderer, which works just fine with Devanagari. I used Pages for some time, but its inability to seamlessly operate in Word .doc format eventually led me to switch to Nisus. -?Tim? On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 3:41 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: > Thanks, Matthew. There does not seem to be a Word-specific keyboard for > Nagari. What is there is the general keyboard option provided by the Mac > OS, but this doesn't work in Word for Mac. Alack and alas ? > > Hans > > Hans Henrich Hock > > > > > > > On 13 Nov 2013, at 16:07, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > > Dear Hans, > > I do not work very much with Mac myself. But, as I recall, it is fairly > easy to find > and set the language and keyboard options in the recent versions of Mac OS > X. > I haven't used it enough, however, to know the details of the keyboard > layout. > > Perhaps someone who uses mostly Mac can help you with this. > > good luck, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 11:11:02 2013 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 13 12:11:02 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: <725986CD-DFAF-4DC3-A008-2ABAFED6103C@uts.cc.utexas.edu> Message-ID: Actually, no, Patrick, the shift is only for retroflex consonants. No shift keypress is required for the conjuncts. And one is going to have to use *something* to distinguish retroflexes. Modern script-rendering software knows all about viramas, which is how it can build a conjunct without having to be told. If you actually *want* a virama on the screen, you just type a consonant with a following space (no vowel). Which seems totally logical to me, and requires no superfluous keypresses. So typing "karman " -> "??????" Basically, every time you type "f", you are doing something you don't need to do, from a technical point of view. It's a labour overhead imposed by poor software design. Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies , University of Vienna, Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria and Adjunct Professor, Division of Health and Humanities, St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. Project | home page| HSSA | PGP On 13 November 2013 17:00, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > Dominik: > > Actually when you get used to it, it is quite fast and simple. In your > case you have to use Shift in order to make conjunct, which also includes > an extra keystroke. The reason for "f", I assume, is that Devan?gar? > assumes the vowel "a" after a consonant, unless there is a vir?ma; and "f" > has that function. So, if you really want a vir?ma -- you type the > consonant and "f" and give a space. > > Patrick > > > > On Nov 13, 2013, at 9:20 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > I'm slightly appalled by what I'm hearing about typing "f" in between > every conjuncted letter. That must make typing a terrible pain! > > All our modern operating systems have built-in stuff for making conjuncts > automatically by just typing the letters one after another (as in > romanization).* I don't understand why MS Win > and OS/X users are doing this other, laborious thing. Am I missing > something obvious? > > When I type Devanagari, I type kRSNa and get ?????, kArtsnyam for > ????????????? . It's the same whatever program I'm using, because the > keyboard/language stuff is handled by the operating system, not each > individual program. As far as I know, anyhow. It's handled by software on > my system, Ubuntu Linux, called Ibus and m17n (which comes with Devanagari > and IAST romanization already pre-defined). > > Dominik > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Thu Nov 14 11:11:47 2013 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 13 06:11:47 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Message-ID: <8D0AF41713EA91A-E28-32D@webmail-d258.sysops.aol.com> Dear Indologists, The Cilappatik?ram, the Tamil epic, has a character named T?vanti/T?vantikai. She was a brahmin and was a friend of the heroine, Ka??aki. She married C?tta?, a god in human form. Eight years after marriage, he revealed to her his real nature and left her asking her to come to his temple. Accordingly, she worshipped at the temple of C?tta?. At the end of the epic, when the temple to Ka??aki is inaugurated, T?vantikai, under possession by C?tta?, T?vantikai entered a trance and danced and C?tta? spoke through her. Later, the C?ra king Ce?ku??uva? established a grant for worship and daily celebration at the Ka??aki temple and appointed her to offer flowers, incense, and fragrances at the temple. After worshipping Ka??aki, the king and others including a brahmin named M??ala? entered a separate sacrificial hall where T?vantikai again spoke as an oracle. It is clear that T?vanti was being appointed as a priestess in the temple. Earlier in the epic, a priestess of the Ko??avai (c?li?i) is mentioned. She belonged to the non-brahmin hunter community. She also entered a trance, danced ecstatically, and spoke as an oracle. What I?a?k?, the author, seems to be doing is documenting a particular phase of transitioning of non-brahminical religious rituals to brahminical rituals in the Tamil country when brahmin females served as priestesses before being replaced by brahmin male priests. This proposition is further strengthened by the name T?vanti/T?vantikai. I?a?k? names some characters with generic/class names as proper names. For example, the father of the hero, K?vala?, is called M?c?ttuva?, which name simply means 'the great one with caravans'. Similarly the father of Ka??aki is called M?n?yka?, which name means 'the great one with ships'. Both refer to different types of merchants. We have to add T?vanti/T?vantikai also to this category of names. The name T?vanti/T?vantikai can be derived from Skt. *devavandhy? with the loss of 'va' due to haplology. As Tamil Lexicon show, Sanskrit vandhy? can be Tamilized as vanti or vantiyai. Also we know Skt. -y? can be Tamilized as -kai as in Skt. kany? > Ta. ka??ikai and Skt. ahaly? > Ta. akalikai. So, Skt. vandhy? > Ta. vantikai. Skt. vandhy? means 'barren or childless woman'. (A later Tamil text, the Tiruvi?aiy??al Pur??am of Para?c?ti, presents a character named Vanti, a childless woman, from Madurai.) Having childless woman as priestesses seemed to be an ancient Tamil custom. In Pu?an????u 372, we come across such a priestess whom George Hart refers to in his translation as 'barren sacrificial priestess'. Thus the name T?vanti < devavandhy? seems to suggest a class of women who served as priestesses. And brahmin T?vanti in Cilappatik?ram seems to indicate the presence of brahmin priestesses in an earlier phase of transition from non-brahmin religious ritualists to brahmin ritualists. I would like to know if there are instances of such brahmin priestesses from other parts of India in early centuries CE. Thanks in advance Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 11:18:51 2013 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 13 12:18:51 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So, Tim, would it be fair to say that the general advice for Mac users wanting to type Devanagari, and to maintain interoperability with doc files, would be: move to Nisus Writer or LibreOffice? (The latter is free, of course, so it's easy to experiment.) Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies , University of Vienna, Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria and Adjunct Professor, Division of Health and Humanities, St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. Project | home page| HSSA | PGP On 14 November 2013 07:34, Tim Bellefleur wrote: > Hi everyone, > > The issue with MS Word for Mac is not so much a problem of input, but a > problem of display. Word for Mac uses its own deficient page-rendering > engine which won't reliably compose complex Unicode characters like > Devanagari conjuncts and the "i" matra. As far as I know, there is no > workaround for this, and the issue has persisted through the every new > version of Office for Mac. However, the majority of other Mac-specific word > processors (Pages, Nisus Writer, and TextEdit, but not > LibreOffice/OpenOffice) use Apple's native renderer, which works just fine > with Devanagari. > > I used Pages for some time, but its inability to seamlessly operate in > Word .doc format eventually led me to switch to Nisus. > > -?Tim? > > > On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 3:41 AM, Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: > >> Thanks, Matthew. There does not seem to be a Word-specific keyboard for >> Nagari. What is there is the general keyboard option provided by the Mac >> OS, but this doesn't work in Word for Mac. Alack and alas ? >> >> Hans >> >> Hans Henrich Hock >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 13 Nov 2013, at 16:07, Matthew Kapstein wrote: >> >> Dear Hans, >> >> I do not work very much with Mac myself. But, as I recall, it is fairly >> easy to find >> and set the language and keyboard options in the recent versions of Mac >> OS X. >> I haven't used it enough, however, to know the details of the keyboard >> layout. >> >> Perhaps someone who uses mostly Mac can help you with this. >> >> good luck, >> Matthew >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Thu Nov 14 11:43:36 2013 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 13 11:43:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses In-Reply-To: <8D0AF41713EA91A-E28-32D@webmail-d258.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Instead of devavandhy?, could t?vantikai not correspond to Skt dev?ntik?, fem. of dev?nta(ka), a name of a r?k?asa and of a daitya (MW)? Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: donderdag 14 november 2013 12:11 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Dear Indologists, The Cilappatik?ram, the Tamil epic, has a character named T?vanti/T?vantikai. She was a brahmin and was a friend of the heroine, Ka??aki. She married C?tta?, a god in human form. Eight years after marriage, he revealed to her his real nature and left her asking her to come to his temple. Accordingly, she worshipped at the temple of C?tta?. At the end of the epic, when the temple to Ka??aki is inaugurated, T?vantikai, under possession by C?tta?, T?vantikai entered a trance and danced and C?tta? spoke through her. Later, the C?ra king Ce?ku??uva? established a grant for worship and daily celebration at the Ka??aki temple and appointed her to offer flowers, incense, and fragrances at the temple. After worshipping Ka??aki, the king and others including a brahmin named M??ala? entered a separate sacrificial hall where T?vantikai again spoke as an oracle. It is clear that T?vanti was being appointed as a priestess in the temple. Earlier in the epic, a priestess of the Ko??avai (c?li?i) is mentioned. She belonged to the non-brahmin hunter community. She also entered a trance, danced ecstatically, and spoke as an oracle. What I?a?k?, the author, seems to be doing is documenting a particular phase of transitioning of non-brahminical religious rituals to brahminical rituals in the Tamil country when brahmin females served as priestesses before being replaced by brahmin male priests. This proposition is further strengthened by the name T?vanti/T?vantikai. I?a?k? names some characters with generic/class names as proper names. For example, the father of the hero, K?vala?, is called M?c?ttuva?, which name simply means 'the great one with caravans'. Similarly the father of Ka??aki is called M?n?yka?, which name means 'the great one with ships'. Both refer to different types of merchants. We have to add T?vanti/T?vantikai also to this category of names. The name T?vanti/T?vantikai can be derived from Skt. *devavandhy? with the loss of 'va' due to haplology. As Tamil Lexicon show, Sanskrit vandhy? can be Tamilized as vanti or vantiyai. Also we know Skt. -y? can be Tamilized as -kai as in Skt. kany? > Ta. ka??ikai and Skt. ahaly? > Ta. akalikai. So, Skt. vandhy? > Ta. vantikai. Skt. vandhy? means 'barren or childless woman'. (A later Tamil text, the Tiruvi?aiy??al Pur??am of Para?c?ti, presents a character named Vanti, a childless woman, from Madurai.) Having childless woman as priestesses seemed to be an ancient Tamil custom. In Pu?an????u 372, we come across such a priestess whom George Hart refers to in his translation as 'barren sacrificial priestess'. Thus the name T?vanti < devavandhy? seems to suggest a class of women who served as priestesses. And brahmin T?vanti in Cilappatik?ram seems to indicate the presence of brahmin priestesses in an earlier phase of transition from non-brahmin religious ritualists to brahmin ritualists. I would like to know if there are instances of such brahmin priestesses from other parts of India in early centuries CE. Thanks in advance Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Thu Nov 14 14:00:09 2013 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 13 08:00:09 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <998F818E-D87C-4694-8B75-0F212EED22E4@uts.cc.utexas.edu> That makes sense, except that in this system (as in the Roman) you have to type "a" after the consonant to get e.g., "ka". But that is a small price to pay for the ease. P On Nov 14, 2013, at 5:11 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Actually, no, Patrick, the shift is only for retroflex consonants. No shift keypress is required for the conjuncts. And one is going to have to use *something* to distinguish retroflexes. > > Modern script-rendering software knows all about viramas, which is how it can build a conjunct without having to be told. If you actually want a virama on the screen, you just type a consonant with a following space (no vowel). Which seems totally logical to me, and requires no superfluous keypresses. So typing "karman " -> "??????" > > Basically, every time you type "f", you are doing something you don't need to do, from a technical point of view. It's a labour overhead imposed by poor software design. > > Dominik > > > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, > University of Vienna, > Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 > 1090 Vienna, Austria > and > Adjunct Professor, > Division of Health and Humanities, > St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India. > Project | home page | HSSA | PGP > > > > > > On 13 November 2013 17:00, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > Dominik: > > Actually when you get used to it, it is quite fast and simple. In your case you have to use Shift in order to make conjunct, which also includes an extra keystroke. The reason for "f", I assume, is that Devan?gar? assumes the vowel "a" after a consonant, unless there is a vir?ma; and "f" has that function. So, if you really want a vir?ma -- you type the consonant and "f" and give a space. > > Patrick > > > > On Nov 13, 2013, at 9:20 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >> I'm slightly appalled by what I'm hearing about typing "f" in between every conjuncted letter. That must make typing a terrible pain! >> >> All our modern operating systems have built-in stuff for making conjuncts automatically by just typing the letters one after another (as in romanization).* I don't understand why MS Win and OS/X users are doing this other, laborious thing. Am I missing something obvious? >> >> When I type Devanagari, I type kRSNa and get ?????, kArtsnyam for ????????????? . It's the same whatever program I'm using, because the keyboard/language stuff is handled by the operating system, not each individual program. As far as I know, anyhow. It's handled by software on my system, Ubuntu Linux, called Ibus and m17n (which comes with Devanagari and IAST romanization already pre-defined). >> >> Dominik >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 18:24:34 2013 From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 13 13:24:34 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A more plausible derivation for *t**?vanti*/*t?vantikai *would be from the flower name *c**?mant?*/*s**?**mant?*/*s**?mantika *?the Indian white rose Rosa glandulifera?*.* The alternation of the radical vowel between ?- and ?- would point to a possible presence of palatal. In Telugu, this flower is known as c?mant?, c ?mant? or c?vanti. Irregular word-initial *c*- > *t*- is not uncommon in Tamil and other Dravidian languages[1][2], as evident in the transformations of the following borrowings from Indo-Aryan: *sattva *?strength? > *cattuvam, tattuvam* *sn?nam *?bath? > *t?nam* *samtati *?lineage? >* tantati* *?sanam *?posture? > *?canam *> *?tanam* Intervocalic /m/ > /v/ is well-known in South Dravidian. Therefore, I propose: **c**?-/**c**?**ma-**nt-i**> c**?**mant? > t**?vanti *?the Indian white rose Rosa glandulifera?*.* It goes well with the other flower names used for characters in the *Cilappatik?ram *such as *m**?tavi *(related to *m**?dhavi*). Regards, Suresh. [1] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c-:Toda t-" BSOAS 1953 [2] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c- and Its Developments JAOS1988. On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:43 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. < H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote: > Instead of devavandhy?, could t?vantikai not correspond to Skt > dev?ntik?, fem. of dev?nta(ka), a name of a r?k?asa and of a daitya (MW)? > > Herman Tieken > University of Leiden > The Netherlands > website: hermantieken.com > ------------------------------ > *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens > palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] > *Verzonden:* donderdag 14 november 2013 12:11 > *To:* indology at list.indology.info > *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses > > Dear Indologists, > > The Cilappatik?ram, the Tamil epic, has a character named > T?vanti/T?vantikai. She was a brahmin and was a friend of the heroine, > Ka??aki. She married C?tta?, a god in human form. Eight years after > marriage, he revealed to her his real nature and left her asking her to > come to his temple. Accordingly, she worshipped at the temple of C?tta?. At > the end of the epic, when the temple to Ka??aki is inaugurated, > T?vantikai, under possession by C?tta?, T?vantikai entered a trance and > danced and C?tta? spoke through her. Later, the C?ra king Ce?ku??uva? > established a grant for worship and daily celebration at the Ka??aki temple > and appointed her to offer flowers, incense, and fragrances at the temple. > After worshipping Ka??aki, the king and others including a brahmin named > M??ala? entered a separate sacrificial hall where T?vantikai again spoke as > an oracle. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmcox at uchicago.edu Thu Nov 14 18:44:56 2013 From: wmcox at uchicago.edu (Whitney Cox) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 13 12:44:56 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Equally, and by a set of sound changes essentially identical to those described by Palaniappan, the second element in t?vantikai could be referred to -vandy? ('praiseworthy'). Skt. Devavandy?, I find, occurs in list of 1008 names of the G?yatr? mantra: this slightly obscure place notwithstanding, it also makes better sense semantically: "she who is to be praised by the gods" rather than "a barren woman of [?] the gods", thus "a divine barren woman". On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Suresh Kolichala < suresh.kolichala at gmail.com> wrote: > > A more plausible derivation for *t**?vanti*/*t?vantikai *would be from > the flower name *c**?mant?*/*s**?**mant?*/*s**?mantika *?the Indian > white rose Rosa glandulifera?*.* > > The alternation of the radical vowel between ?- and ?- would point to a > possible presence of palatal. In Telugu, this flower is known as c? > mant?, c?mant? or c?vanti. Irregular word-initial *c*- > *t*- is not > uncommon in Tamil and other Dravidian languages[1][2], as evident in the > transformations of the following borrowings from Indo-Aryan: > > *sattva *?strength? > *cattuvam, tattuvam* > *sn?nam *?bath? > *t?nam* > *samtati *?lineage? >* tantati* > *?sanam *?posture? > *?canam *> *?tanam* > > Intervocalic /m/ > /v/ is well-known in South Dravidian. > > Therefore, I propose: > > **c**?-/**c**?**ma-**nt-i**> c**?**mant? > t**?vanti *?the Indian white > rose Rosa glandulifera?*.* > > It goes well with the other flower names used for characters in the > *Cilappatik?ram *such as *m**?tavi *(related to *m**?dhavi*). > > Regards, > Suresh. > > [1] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c-:Toda t-" BSOAS 1953 > [2] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c- and Its Developments JAOS1988. > > On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:43 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. < > H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote: > >> Instead of devavandhy?, could t?vantikai not correspond to Skt >> dev?ntik?, fem. of dev?nta(ka), a name of a r?k?asa and of a daitya (MW)? >> >> Herman Tieken >> University of Leiden >> The Netherlands >> website: hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------ >> *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens >> palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] >> *Verzonden:* donderdag 14 november 2013 12:11 >> *To:* indology at list.indology.info >> *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses >> >> Dear Indologists, >> >> The Cilappatik?ram, the Tamil epic, has a character named >> T?vanti/T?vantikai. She was a brahmin and was a friend of the heroine, >> Ka??aki. She married C?tta?, a god in human form. Eight years after >> marriage, he revealed to her his real nature and left her asking her to >> come to his temple. Accordingly, she worshipped at the temple of C?tta?. At >> the end of the epic, when the temple to Ka??aki is inaugurated, >> T?vantikai, under possession by C?tta?, T?vantikai entered a trance and >> danced and C?tta? spoke through her. Later, the C?ra king Ce?ku??uva? >> established a grant for worship and daily celebration at the Ka??aki temple >> and appointed her to offer flowers, incense, and fragrances at the temple. >> After worshipping Ka??aki, the king and others including a brahmin named >> M??ala? entered a separate sacrificial hall where T?vantikai again spoke as >> an oracle. >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -- Whitney Cox Associate Professor and Director of Graduate Studies South Asian Languages and Civilizations University of Chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 19:53:28 2013 From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 13 14:53:28 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Whitney, If we are looking for all possible combinations that could derive *t* *?vanti *in Tamil purely based on possible sound transformations, then here are the possibilities. 1. Word-initial t- in Tamil could be derived from: t-, d-, dh-, sth-, sn- and c. 2. Word medial -v- in Tamil could be derived from: p, b, m, v 3. Final suffix -nti could be arrived at from: -nti, -ndi, -ntya, -ndya If I feed these possibilities to my program it generates the following combinations: t?manti, d?manti, dh?manti, s?manti, ??manti, ??manti, sn?manti, sth?manti, c?manti, t?manti, d?manti, dh?manti, s?manti, ??manti, ??manti, sn?manti, sth?manti, c?manti, t?mandi, d?mandi, dh?mandi, s?mandi, ??mandi, ??mandi, sn?mandi, sth?mandi, c?mandi, t?mandi, d?mandi, dh?mandi, s?mandi, ??mandi, ??mandi, sn?mandi, sth?mandi, c?mandi, t?mantya, d?mantya, dh?mantya, s?mantya, ??mantya, ??mantya, sn?mantya, sth?mantya, c?mantya, t?mantya, d?mantya, dh?mantya, s?mantya, ??mantya, ??mantya, sn?mantya, sth?mantya, c?mantya, t?mandya, d?mandya, dh?mandya, s?mandya, ??mandya, ??mandya, sn?mandya, sth?mandya, c?mandya, t?mandya, d?mandya, dh?mandya, s?mandya, ??mandya, ??mandya, sn?mandya, sth?mandya, c?mandya, t?vanti, d?vanti, dh?vanti, s?vanti, ??vanti, ??vanti, sn?vanti, sth?vanti, c?vanti, t?vanti, d?vanti, dh?vanti, s?vanti, ??vanti, ??vanti, sn?vanti, sth?vanti, c?vanti, t?vandi, d?vandi, dh?vandi, s?vandi, ??vandi, ??vandi, sn?vandi, sth?vandi, c?vandi, t?vandi, d?vandi, dh?vandi, s?vandi, ??vandi, ??vandi, sn?vandi, sth?vandi, c?vandi, t?vantya, d?vantya, dh?vantya, s?vantya, ??vantya, ??vantya, sn?vantya, sth?vantya, c?vantya, t?vantya, d?vantya, dh?vantya, s?vantya, ??vantya, ??vantya, sn?vantya, sth?vantya, c?vantya, t?vandya, d?vandya, dh?vandya, s?vandya, ??vandya, ??vandya, sn?vandya, sth?vandya, c?vandya, t?vandya, d?vandya, dh?vandya, s?vandya, ??vandya, ??vandya, sn?vandya, sth?vandya, c?vandya, t?panti, d?panti, dh?panti, s?panti, ??panti, ??panti, sn?panti, sth?panti, c?panti, t?panti, d?panti, dh?panti, s?panti, ??panti, ??panti, sn?panti, sth?panti, c?panti, t?pandi, d?pandi, dh?pandi, s?pandi, ??pandi, ??pandi, sn?pandi, sth?pandi, c?pandi, t?pandi, d?pandi, dh?pandi, s?pandi, ??pandi, ??pandi, sn?pandi, sth?pandi, c?pandi, t?pantya, d?pantya, dh?pantya, s?pantya, ??pantya, ??pantya, sn?pantya, sth?pantya, c?pantya, t?pantya, d?pantya, dh?pantya, s?pantya, ??pantya, ??pantya, sn?pantya, sth?pantya, c?pantya, t?pandya, d?pandya, dh?pandya, s?pandya, ??pandya, ??pandya, sn?pandya, sth?pandya, c?pandya, t?pandya, d?pandya, dh?pandya, s?pandya, ??pandya, ??pandya, sn?pandya, sth?pandya, c?pandya, t?banti, d?banti, dh?banti, s?banti, ??banti, ??banti, sn?banti, sth?banti, c?banti, t?banti, d?banti, dh?banti, s?banti, ??banti, ??banti, sn?banti, sth?banti, c?banti, t?bandi, d?bandi, dh?bandi, s?bandi, ??bandi, ??bandi, sn?bandi, sth?bandi, c?bandi, t?bandi, d?bandi, dh?bandi, s?bandi, ??bandi, ??bandi, sn?bandi, sth?bandi, c?bandi, t?bantya, d?bantya, dh?bantya, s?bantya, ??bantya, ??bantya, sn?bantya, sth?bantya, c?bantya, t?bantya, d?bantya, dh?bantya, s?bantya, ??bantya, ??bantya, sn?bantya, sth?bantya, c?bantya, t?bandya, d?bandya, dh?bandya, s?bandya, ??bandya, ??bandya, sn?bandya, sth?bandya, c?bandya, t?bandya, d?bandya, dh?bandya, s?bandya, ??bandya, ??bandya, sn?bandya, sth?bandya, c?bandya. For your laughs only! Regards, Suresh. PS: I still think *c/sV?mant?* 'Indian rose' is the most plausible candidate, as it reasonably explains the variant spellings of *t?vanti *and *t?vanti*. PPS: I totally agree with you that "a barren woman of the gods" doesn't make much sense at all. On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Whitney Cox wrote: > Equally, and by a set of sound changes essentially identical to those > described by Palaniappan, the second element in t?vantikai could be > referred to -vandy? ('praiseworthy'). Skt. Devavandy?, I find, occurs in > list of 1008 names of the G?yatr? mantra: this slightly obscure place > notwithstanding, it also makes better sense semantically: "she who is to be > praised by the gods" rather than "a barren woman of [?] the gods", thus "a > divine barren woman". > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 22:56:55 2013 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 13 23:56:55 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Google Books ruled legal in massive win for fair use (updated) Message-ID: *Google Books ruled legal in massive win for fair use (updated)* http://feedly.com/k/HVJNrf Moyan Brenn A long-running copyright lawsuit between the Authors' Guild and Google over its book-scanning project is over, and Google has won on the grounds that its scanning is "fair use." In other words, the snippets of books that Google shows for free don't break copyright, and Google doesn't need the authors' permission to engage in the scanning and display of short bits of books. The ruling(PDF) was published this morning by US District Judge Denny Chin, who has overseen the case since it was filed in 2005. Read 24 remaining paragraphs| Comments shared via http://feedly.com Dominik Wujastyk, from Android phone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesan at ifpindia.org Fri Nov 15 03:52:44 2013 From: ganesan at ifpindia.org (Dr. T. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 13 09:22:44 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <52859A8C.6090001@ifpindia.org> If it is Skt. devaantikaa, then it can be deva + antikaa = one (a woman) who is near the deva, the God. It may mean a priestess, who is nearer to God in the temple. Ganesan On 14-11-2013 17:13, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote: > > Instead of devavandhya-, could te-vantikai not correspond to Skt > deva-ntika-, fem. of deva-nta(ka), a name of a ra-ks.asa and of a > daitya (MW)? > > > Herman Tieken > University of Leiden > The Netherlands > website: hermantieken.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens > palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] > *Verzonden:* donderdag 14 november 2013 12:11 > *To:* indology at list.indology.info > *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses > > Dear Indologists, > > The Cilappatika-ram, the Tamil epic, has a character named > Te-vanti/Ta-vantikai. She was a brahmin and was a friend of the > heroine, Kan.n.aki. She married Ca-ttan_, a god in human form. Eight > years after marriage, he revealed to her his real nature and left her > asking her to come to his temple. Accordingly, she worshipped at the > temple of Ca-ttan_. At the end of the epic, when the temple to > Kan.n.aki is inaugurated, Te-vantikai, under possession by Ca-ttan_, > Te-vantikai entered a trance and danced and Ca-ttan_ spoke through > her. Later, the Ce-ra king Cen.kut.t.uvan_ established a grant for > worship and daily celebration at the Kan.n.aki temple and appointed > her to offer flowers, incense, and fragrances at the temple. After > worshipping Kan.n.aki, the king and others including a brahmin named > Ma-t.alan_ entered a separate sacrificial hall where Te-vantikai again > spoke as an oracle. > > It is clear that Te-vanti was being appointed as a priestess in the > temple. Earlier in the epic, a priestess of the Kor_r_avai > (/ca-lin_i/) is mentioned. She belonged to the non-brahmin hunter > community. She also entered a trance, danced ecstatically, and spoke > as an oracle. What Il.an.ko-, the author, seems to be doing is > documenting a particular phase of transitioning of non-brahminical > religious rituals to brahminical rituals in the Tamil country when > brahmin females served as priestesses before being replaced by brahmin > male priests. > > This proposition is further strengthened by the name > Te-vanti/Te-vantikai. Il.an.ko- names some characters with > generic/class names as proper names. For example, the father of the > hero, Ko-valan_, is called Ma-ca-ttuvan_, which name simply means 'the > great one with caravans'. Similarly the father of Kan.n.aki is called > Ma-na-ykan_, which name means 'the great one with ships'. Both refer > to different types of merchants. We have to add Te-vanti/Te-vantikai > also to this category of names. The name Te-vanti/Te-vantikai can be > derived from Skt. */devavandhya-/ with the loss of '/va/' due to > haplology. As Tamil Lexicon show, Sanskrit /vandhya-/ can be Tamilized > as /vanti/ or /vantiyai/. Also we know Skt. -/ya-/ can be Tamilized as > -/kai/ as in Skt. /kanya-/ > Ta. /kan_n_ikai/ and Skt. /ahalya-/ > Ta. > /akalikai/. So, Skt. /vandhya-/ > Ta. /vantikai/. > > Skt. /vandhya- /means 'barren or childless woman'. (A later Tamil > text, the Tiruvil.aiya-t.al Pura-n.am of Para?co-ti, presents a > character named Vanti, a childless woman, from Madurai.) Having > childless woman as priestesses seemed to be an ancient Tamil custom. > In Pur_ana-n_u-r_u 372, we come across such a priestess whom George > Hart refers to in his translation as 'barren sacrificial priestess'. > > Thus the name Te-vanti < /devavandhya-/ seems to suggest a class of > women who served as priestesses. And brahmin Te-vanti in > Cilappatika-ram seems to indicate the presence of brahmin priestesses > in an earlier phase of transition from non-brahmin religious > ritualists to brahmin ritualists. > > I would like to know if there are instances of such brahmin > priestesses from other parts of India in early centuries CE. > > Thanks in advance > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Fri Nov 15 04:10:11 2013 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 13 23:10:11 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Message-ID: <8D0AFCFB5EB6CB6-230C-30C3@webmail-d260.sysops.aol.com> Thanks for the responses. Here are my thoughts on the etymologies proposed. 1. dev?ntik? One problem with this etymology is the long '?' as the first vowel while the Tamil form has short 'a'. The second problem is the semantics. 'R?k?asa or daitya' does not fit either as a proper name or a class name for a brahmin girl or a temple priestess. 2. c?-/c?ma-nt-i> c?mant? > t?vanti One problem with this is that it cannot explain the variant T?vantikai. The second problem is that t?vanti is not attested in any literary or colloquial usage. In Tamil, the only forms known are c?manti, civanti, cevanti, and cevvanti. 3. devavandy? This is indeed the most attractive of the three. Indeed I too gave this a lot of thought before settling on devavandhy?. The reasons are these. vanti or vantiyai or vantikai is not attested as either as a proper name of a woman or a generic name of a praiseworthy woman in Tamil usage. The Tamil compilers of the Tamil Lexicon made up an amazing brain trust of Tamil scholarship that existed at that time, but with an overwhelming majority from upper caste - Aiyars, Aiyangars, Sastris, Pillais, Mudaliars, Chettiar, etc. While Iyodhi Doss and Abraham Pandithar were exceptions in terms of caste background, they were also highly informed with respect to Sanskritic usage. If vanti/vantiyai/vantikai had been used in the Tamil domain either as a proper noun or as a generic/class name to refer to a praiseworthy woman, they would have most probably listed it in the Tamil Lexicon with that meaning. The fact that Tamil Lexicon does not list it suggests that there is no attestation of such usage. That is my reason for rejecting it in favor of vanti/vantiyai/vantikai in the sense of 'childless woman'. All three of these usages are listed in Tamil Lexicon. As for barren/childless woman, one may not give a newborn child that name. But if the author has a tendency to use a generic/class name, such as the name for the childless woman in the Tiruvi?aiy??al Pur??am in some cases (possibly because he did not know the real name if the story had been already popular as possible in the case of the Cilappatik?ram), then the name 'childless woman' fits very well especially if other sources such as Pu?an????u 372 specifically mention that attribute of a priestess. (Another such usage is the case of Tarumi in the Tiruvi?aiy??al Pur??am, where as an ?di?aiva brahmin bachelor, he has to get married to be a priest but lacks the necessary money. But he is already given the name Tarumi meaning 'temple priest.) This is like naming a girl who is going to become a nun later in life 'childless woman'. There is nothing pejorative about it. It is merely descriptive. That is how some of these authors named their characters. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Whitney Cox To: Suresh Kolichala Cc: indology Sent: Thu, Nov 14, 2013 12:45 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Equally, and by a set of sound changes essentially identical to those described by Palaniappan, the second element in t?vantikai could be referred to -vandy? ('praiseworthy'). Skt. Devavandy?, I find, occurs in list of 1008 names of the G?yatr? mantra: this slightly obscure place notwithstanding, it also makes better sense semantically: "she who is to be praised by the gods" rather than "a barren woman of [?] the gods", thus "a divine barren woman". On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Suresh Kolichala wrote: A more plausible derivation for t?vanti/t?vantikai would be from the flower name c?mant?/s?mant?/s?mantika ?the Indian white rose Rosa glandulifera?. The alternation of the radical vowel between ?- and ?- would point to a possible presence of palatal. In Telugu, this flower is known as c?mant?, c?mant? or c?vanti. Irregular word-initial c- > t- is not uncommon in Tamil and other Dravidian languages[1][2], as evident in the transformations of the following borrowings from Indo-Aryan: sattva ?strength? > cattuvam, tattuvam sn?nam ?bath? > t?nam samtati ?lineage? > tantati ?sanam ?posture? > ?canam > ?tanam Intervocalic /m/ > /v/ is well-known in South Dravidian. Therefore, I propose: *c?-/c?ma-nt-i> c?mant? > t?vanti ?the Indian white rose Rosa glandulifera?. It goes well with the other flower names used for characters in the Cilappatik?ram such as m?tavi (related to m?dhavi). Regards, Suresh. [1] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c-:Toda t-" BSOAS 1953 [2] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c- and Its Developments JAOS1988. On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:43 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote: Instead of devavandhy?, could t?vantikai not correspond to Skt dev?ntik?, fem. of dev?nta(ka), a name of a r?k?asa and of a daitya (MW)? Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: donderdag 14 november 2013 12:11 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Dear Indologists, The Cilappatik?ram, the Tamil epic, has a character named T?vanti/T?vantikai. She was a brahmin and was a friend of the heroine, Ka??aki. She married C?tta?, a god in human form. Eight years after marriage, he revealed to her his real nature and left her asking her to come to his temple. Accordingly, she worshipped at the temple of C?tta?. At the end of the epic, when the temple to Ka??aki is inaugurated, T?vantikai, under possession by C?tta?, T?vantikai entered a trance and danced and C?tta? spoke through her. Later, the C?ra king Ce?ku??uva? established a grant for worship and daily celebration at the Ka??aki temple and appointed her to offer flowers, incense, and fragrances at the temple. After worshipping Ka??aki, the king and others including a brahmin named M??ala? entered a separate sacrificial hall where T?vantikai again spoke as an oracle. _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -- Whitney Cox Associate Professor and Director of Graduate Studies South Asian Languages and Civilizations University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 04:46:26 2013 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 13 10:16:26 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 10, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am not able to read some mails. the fonts are not readable On Nov 15, 2013 12:15 AM, wrote: > Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to > indology at list.indology.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > indology-request at list.indology.info > > You can reach the person managing the list at > indology-owner at list.indology.info > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Brahmin Priestesses (Suresh Kolichala) > 2. Re: Brahmin Priestesses (Whitney Cox) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 13:24:34 -0500 > From: Suresh Kolichala > To: "Tieken, H.J.H." > Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses > Message-ID: > LDgYJkzL-czw at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > A more plausible derivation for *t**?vanti*/*t?vantikai *would be from the > flower name *c**?mant?*/*s**?**mant?*/*s**?mantika *?the Indian white rose > Rosa glandulifera?*.* > > The alternation of the radical vowel between ?- and ?- would point to a > possible presence of palatal. In Telugu, this flower is known as c?mant?, > c > ?mant? or c?vanti. Irregular word-initial *c*- > *t*- is not uncommon in > Tamil and other Dravidian languages[1][2], as evident in the > transformations of the following borrowings from Indo-Aryan: > > *sattva *?strength? > *cattuvam, tattuvam* > *sn?nam *?bath? > *t?nam* > *samtati *?lineage? >* tantati* > *?sanam *?posture? > *?canam *> *?tanam* > > Intervocalic /m/ > /v/ is well-known in South Dravidian. > > Therefore, I propose: > > **c**?-/**c**?**ma-**nt-i**> c**?**mant? > t**?vanti *?the Indian white > rose Rosa glandulifera?*.* > > It goes well with the other flower names used for characters in the > *Cilappatik?ram *such as *m**?tavi *(related to *m**?dhavi*). > > Regards, > Suresh. > > [1] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c-:Toda t-" BSOAS 1953 > [2] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c- and Its Developments JAOS1988. > > On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:43 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. < > H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote: > > > Instead of devavandhy?, could t?vantikai not correspond to Skt > > dev?ntik?, fem. of dev?nta(ka), a name of a r?k?asa and of a daitya (MW)? > > > > Herman Tieken > > University of Leiden > > The Netherlands > > website: hermantieken.com > > ------------------------------ > > *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens > > palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] > > *Verzonden:* donderdag 14 november 2013 12:11 > > *To:* indology at list.indology.info > > *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses > > > > Dear Indologists, > > > > The Cilappatik?ram, the Tamil epic, has a character named > > T?vanti/T?vantikai. She was a brahmin and was a friend of the heroine, > > Ka??aki. She married C?tta?, a god in human form. Eight years after > > marriage, he revealed to her his real nature and left her asking her to > > come to his temple. Accordingly, she worshipped at the temple of C?tta?. > At > > the end of the epic, when the temple to Ka??aki is inaugurated, > > T?vantikai, under possession by C?tta?, T?vantikai entered a trance and > > danced and C?tta? spoke through her. Later, the C?ra king Ce?ku??uva? > > established a grant for worship and daily celebration at the Ka??aki > temple > > and appointed her to offer flowers, incense, and fragrances at the > temple. > > After worshipping Ka??aki, the king and others including a brahmin named > > M??ala? entered a separate sacrificial hall where T?vantikai again spoke > as > > an oracle. > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Fri Nov 15 08:01:23 2013 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 13 08:01:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses In-Reply-To: <8D0AFCFB5EB6CB6-230C-30C3@webmail-d260.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: As to ? > a before a consonant cluster, as seen in t?vantikai from dev?ntik?, this is a normal development in Middle Indic. How certain are you that t?vantikai is ?brahmin?? Okay, she was married to a brahmin, but does that automatically means that she is ?brahmin?? Her subsequent career as oracle and soothsayer, all this while in trance, seems to put her into another category of people. Note in this connection that the protagonist of the Cilappatik?ram, Ka??aki, reveals herself as a veritable ugr? devat?, destroying Maturai by throwing her breast at it (see K?vya in South India, pp. 202-208). Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: vrijdag 15 november 2013 5:10 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Thanks for the responses. Here are my thoughts on the etymologies proposed. 1. dev?ntik? One problem with this etymology is the long '?' as the first vowel while the Tamil form has short 'a'. The second problem is the semantics. 'R?k?asa or daitya' does not fit either as a proper name or a class name for a brahmin girl or a temple priestess. 2. c?-/c?ma-nt-i> c?mant? > t?vanti One problem with this is that it cannot explain the variant T?vantikai. The second problem is that t?vanti is not attested in any literary or colloquial usage. In Tamil, the only forms known are c?manti, civanti, cevanti, and cevvanti. 3. devavandy? This is indeed the most attractive of the three. Indeed I too gave this a lot of thought before settling on devavandhy?. The reasons are these. vanti or vantiyai or vantikai is not attested as either as a proper name of a woman or a generic name of a praiseworthy woman in Tamil usage. The Tamil compilers of the Tamil Lexicon made up an amazing brain trust of Tamil scholarship that existed at that time, but with an overwhelming majority from upper caste - Aiyars, Aiyangars, Sastris, Pillais, Mudaliars, Chettiar, etc. While Iyodhi Doss and Abraham Pandithar were exceptions in terms of caste background, they were also highly informed with respect to Sanskritic usage. If vanti/vantiyai/vantikai had been used in the Tamil domain either as a proper noun or as a generic/class name to refer to a praiseworthy woman, they would have most probably listed it in the Tamil Lexicon with that meaning. The fact that Tamil Lexicon does not list it suggests that there is no attestation of such usage. That is my reason for rejecting it in favor of vanti/vantiyai/vantikai in the sense of 'childless woman'. All three of these usages are listed in Tamil Lexicon. As for barren/childless woman, one may not give a newborn child that name. But if the author has a tendency to use a generic/class name, such as the name for the childless woman in the Tiruvi?aiy??al Pur??am in some cases (possibly because he did not know the real name if the story had been already popular as possible in the case of the Cilappatik?ram), then the name 'childless woman' fits very well especially if other sources such as Pu?an????u 372 specifically mention that attribute of a priestess. (Another such usage is the case of Tarumi in the Tiruvi?aiy??al Pur??am, where as an ?di?aiva brahmin bachelor, he has to get married to be a priest but lacks the necessary money. But he is already given the name Tarumi meaning 'temple priest.) This is like naming a girl who is going to become a nun later in life 'childless woman'. There is nothing pejorative about it. It is merely descriptive. That is how some of these authors named their characters. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Whitney Cox To: Suresh Kolichala Cc: indology Sent: Thu, Nov 14, 2013 12:45 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Equally, and by a set of sound changes essentially identical to those described by Palaniappan, the second element in t?vantikai could be referred to -vandy? ('praiseworthy'). Skt. Devavandy?, I find, occurs in list of 1008 names of the G?yatr? mantra: this slightly obscure place notwithstanding, it also makes better sense semantically: "she who is to be praised by the gods" rather than "a barren woman of [?] the gods", thus "a divine barren woman". On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Suresh Kolichala > wrote: A more plausible derivation for t?vanti/t?vantikai would be from the flower name c?mant?/s?mant?/s?mantika ?the Indian white rose Rosa glandulifera?. The alternation of the radical vowel between ?- and ?- would point to a possible presence of palatal. In Telugu, this flower is known as c?mant?, c?mant? or c?vanti. Irregular word-initial c- > t- is not uncommon in Tamil and other Dravidian languages[1][2], as evident in the transformations of the following borrowings from Indo-Aryan: sattva ?strength? > cattuvam, tattuvam sn?nam ?bath? > t?nam samtati ?lineage? > tantati ?sanam ?posture? > ?canam > ?tanam Intervocalic /m/ > /v/ is well-known in South Dravidian. Therefore, I propose: *c?-/c?ma-nt-i> c?mant? > t?vanti ?the Indian white rose Rosa glandulifera?. It goes well with the other flower names used for characters in the Cilappatik?ram such as m?tavi (related to m?dhavi). Regards, Suresh. [1] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c-:Toda t-" BSOAS 1953 [2] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c- and Its Developments JAOS1988. On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:43 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. > wrote: Instead of devavandhy?, could t?vantikai not correspond to Skt dev?ntik?, fem. of dev?nta(ka), a name of a r?k?asa and of a daitya (MW)? Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: donderdag 14 november 2013 12:11 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Dear Indologists, The Cilappatik?ram, the Tamil epic, has a character named T?vanti/T?vantikai. She was a brahmin and was a friend of the heroine, Ka??aki. She married C?tta?, a god in human form. Eight years after marriage, he revealed to her his real nature and left her asking her to come to his temple. Accordingly, she worshipped at the temple of C?tta?. At the end of the epic, when the temple to Ka??aki is inaugurated, T?vantikai, under possession by C?tta?, T?vantikai entered a trance and danced and C?tta? spoke through her. Later, the C?ra king Ce?ku??uva? established a grant for worship and daily celebration at the Ka??aki temple and appointed her to offer flowers, incense, and fragrances at the temple. After worshipping Ka??aki, the king and others including a brahmin named M??ala? entered a separate sacrificial hall where T?vantikai again spoke as an oracle. _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -- Whitney Cox Associate Professor and Director of Graduate Studies South Asian Languages and Civilizations University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 08:37:06 2013 From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 13 03:37:06 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses In-Reply-To: <8D0AFCFB5EB6CB6-230C-30C3@webmail-d260.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 11:10 PM, wrote: > 2. *c**?-/**c**?**ma-**nt-i**> c**?**mant? > t**?vanti * > One problem with this is that it cannot explain the variant T?vantikai. > The second problem is that *t?vanti* is not attested in any literary or > colloquial usage. In Tamil, the only forms known are *c?manti*, *civanti*, > *cevanti*, and *cevvanti*. > *s?vantika *is listed in Monier-Williams' Sanskrit-English Dictionary as well as in Turner's CDIAL. Problems with *devavandhy? *are several: Haplology involving -v- in the Dravidian languages usually results in an elongated vowel (as *dev**?**ndhy?) *or a double consonant as in *d?va-vaca?am* > *t?vvaca?am *(????????). Furthermore, *devavandhy? *doesn't explain the spelling variation of *t**?vantikai *and *t**?**vanti. *Most importantly, a barren woman of gods doesn't make much sense semantically. Regards, Suresh. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From soni at staff.uni-marburg.de Fri Nov 15 12:29:28 2013 From: soni at staff.uni-marburg.de (soni at staff.uni-marburg.de) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 13 13:29:28 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 16th WSC in Bangkok in 2015: Update November 2013 Message-ID: <20131115132928.Horde.VTjrHhbA36q52AmWuQurwg4@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Dear Colleagues and Friends, Most Conveners have accepted our invitation, so this update is now meant to make this public. The remaining ones will be added silently. Please see the IASS website: http://www.sanskritassociation.org/index.php under "News & Events" and click on: "16th WSC in Bangkok in 2015 (Update November 2013)" Or, go directly to: http://www.sanskritassociation.org/images/pdf/16th-WORLD-SANSKRIT-CONFERENCE-Update-November-2013.pdf We have also given the bank references. We hope you plan to come. Please do not mind the unavoidable plural postings. With thanks to the conveners for their acceptance, yours sincerely, Jayendra Secretary General. -- From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 14:06:11 2013 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 13 15:06:11 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 10, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Several of our users have noticed that Unicode characters are not legible in their emails from INDOLOGY. This is caused by the "digest" feature that gathers together a number of INDOLOGY posts into a batch and sends that to you in once a week or so. If you switch the setting of your INDOLOGY account to not digest messages, then you will see all the Devanagari etc. Best, Dominik On 15 November 2013 05:46, Dr. Rupali Mokashi wrote: > I am not able to read some mails. the fonts are not readable > On Nov 15, 2013 12:15 AM, wrote: > >> Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to >> indology at list.indology.info >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> >> http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info >> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> indology-request at list.indology.info >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Brahmin Priestesses (Suresh Kolichala) >> 2. Re: Brahmin Priestesses (Whitney Cox) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 13:24:34 -0500 >> From: Suresh Kolichala >> To: "Tieken, H.J.H." >> Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses >> Message-ID: >> > LDgYJkzL-czw at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> A more plausible derivation for *t**?vanti*/*t?vantikai *would be from >> the >> flower name *c**?mant?*/*s**?**mant?*/*s**?mantika *?the Indian white rose >> Rosa glandulifera?*.* >> >> The alternation of the radical vowel between ?- and ?- would point to a >> possible presence of palatal. In Telugu, this flower is known as >> c?mant?, c >> ?mant? or c?vanti. Irregular word-initial *c*- > *t*- is not uncommon in >> Tamil and other Dravidian languages[1][2], as evident in the >> transformations of the following borrowings from Indo-Aryan: >> >> *sattva *?strength? > *cattuvam, tattuvam* >> *sn?nam *?bath? > *t?nam* >> *samtati *?lineage? >* tantati* >> *?sanam *?posture? > *?canam *> *?tanam* >> >> Intervocalic /m/ > /v/ is well-known in South Dravidian. >> >> Therefore, I propose: >> >> **c**?-/**c**?**ma-**nt-i**> c**?**mant? > t**?vanti *?the Indian white >> rose Rosa glandulifera?*.* >> >> It goes well with the other flower names used for characters in the >> *Cilappatik?ram *such as *m**?tavi *(related to *m**?dhavi*). >> >> Regards, >> Suresh. >> >> [1] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c-:Toda t-" BSOAS 1953 >> [2] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c- and Its Developments JAOS1988. >> >> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:43 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. < >> H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote: >> >> > Instead of devavandhy?, could t?vantikai not correspond to Skt >> > dev?ntik?, fem. of dev?nta(ka), a name of a r?k?asa and of a daitya >> (MW)? >> > >> > Herman Tieken >> > University of Leiden >> > The Netherlands >> > website: hermantieken.com >> > ------------------------------ >> > *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens >> > palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] >> > *Verzonden:* donderdag 14 november 2013 12:11 >> > *To:* indology at list.indology.info >> > *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses >> > >> > Dear Indologists, >> > >> > The Cilappatik?ram, the Tamil epic, has a character named >> > T?vanti/T?vantikai. She was a brahmin and was a friend of the heroine, >> > Ka??aki. She married C?tta?, a god in human form. Eight years after >> > marriage, he revealed to her his real nature and left her asking her to >> > come to his temple. Accordingly, she worshipped at the temple of >> C?tta?. At >> > the end of the epic, when the temple to Ka??aki is inaugurated, >> > T?vantikai, under possession by C?tta?, T?vantikai entered a trance and >> > danced and C?tta? spoke through her. Later, the C?ra king Ce?ku??uva? >> > established a grant for worship and daily celebration at the Ka??aki >> temple >> > and appointed her to offer flowers, incense, and fragrances at the >> temple. >> > After worshipping Ka??aki, the king and others including a brahmin named >> > M??ala? entered a separate sacrificial hall where T?vantikai again >> spoke as >> > an oracle. >> > >> > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 18:22:34 2013 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 13 19:22:34 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 10, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apologies! My remarks were not quite right.? ? It's not the "digest" setting that causes the ? ? ?display problem, but having MIME switched off. Turn that setting on, and the Unicode characters will display properly. Tweaking your settings is done by clicking the button "unsubscribe or edit options" at the bottom of the page here: http://listinfo.indology.info/ You'll need your password, that was in an email you got when you were first subscribed. Best, Dominik On 15 November 2013 15:06, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Several of our users have noticed that Unicode characters are not legible > in their emails from INDOLOGY. This is caused by the "digest" feature that > gathers together a number of INDOLOGY posts into a batch and sends that to > you in once a week or so. If you switch the setting of your INDOLOGY > account to not digest messages, then you will see all the Devanagari etc. > > Best, > Dominik > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sat Nov 16 07:26:09 2013 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 13 02:26:09 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8D0B0B441196D05-1614-CD5C@webmail-vd012.sysops.aol.com> There is no doubt she was a brahmin. It is very explicitly stated in Cilappatik?ram 30.69. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: palaniappa ; indology Sent: Fri, Nov 15, 2013 2:01 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses As to? > a before a consonant cluster, as seen in t?vantikai from dev?ntik?, this is a normal development in Middle Indic. How certain are you thatt?vantikai is ?brahmin?? Okay, she was married to a brahmin, but does that automatically means that she is ?brahmin?? Her subsequent career as oracle and soothsayer, all this while in trance, seems to put her into another category of people. Note in this connection that the protagonist of the Cilappatik?ram, Ka??aki, reveals herself as a veritable ugr? devat?, destroying Maturai by throwing her breast at it (see K?vya in South India, pp. 202-208). Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: vrijdag 15 november 2013 5:10 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Thanks for the responses. Here are my thoughts on the etymologies proposed. 1. dev?ntik? One problem with this etymology is the long '?' as the first vowel while the Tamil form has short 'a'. The second problem is the semantics. 'R?k?asa or daitya' does not fit either as a proper name or a class name for a brahmin girl or a temple priestess. 2. c?-/c?ma-nt-i> c?mant? > t?vanti One problem with this is that it cannot explain the variant T?vantikai. The second problem is that t?vanti is not attested in any literary or colloquial usage. In Tamil, the only forms known are c?manti, civanti, cevanti, andcevvanti. 3. devavandy? This is indeed the most attractive of the three. Indeed I too gave this a lot of thought before settling on devavandhy?. The reasons are these. vanti or vantiyai or vantikai is not attested as either as a proper name of a woman or a generic name of a praiseworthy woman in Tamil usage. The Tamil compilers of the Tamil Lexicon made up an amazing brain trust of Tamil scholarship that existed at that time, but with an overwhelming majority from upper caste - Aiyars, Aiyangars, Sastris, Pillais, Mudaliars, Chettiar, etc. While Iyodhi Doss and Abraham Pandithar were exceptions in terms of caste background, they were also highly informed with respect to Sanskritic usage. Ifvanti/vantiyai/vantikai had been used in the Tamil domain either as a proper noun or as a generic/class name to refer to a praiseworthy woman, they would have most probably listed it in the Tamil Lexicon with that meaning. The fact that Tamil Lexicon does not list it suggests that there is no attestation of such usage. That is my reason for rejecting it in favor ofvanti/vantiyai/vantikai in the sense of 'childless woman'. All three of these usages are listed in Tamil Lexicon. As for barren/childless woman, one may not give a newborn child that name. But if the author has a tendency to use a generic/class name, such as the name for the childless woman in the Tiruvi?aiy??al Pur??am in some cases (possibly because he did not know the real name if the story had been already popular as possible in the case of the Cilappatik?ram), then the name 'childless woman' fits very well especially if other sources such as Pu?an????u 372 specifically mention that attribute of a priestess. (Another such usage is the case of Tarumi in the Tiruvi?aiy??al Pur??am, where as an ?di?aiva brahmin bachelor, he has to get married to be a priest but lacks the necessary money. But he is already given the name Tarumi meaning 'temple priest.) This is like naming a girl who is going to become a nun later in life 'childless woman'. There is nothing pejorative about it. It is merely descriptive. That is how some of these authors named their characters. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Whitney Cox To: Suresh Kolichala Cc: indology Sent: Thu, Nov 14, 2013 12:45 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Equally, and by a set of sound changes essentially identical to those described by Palaniappan, the second element in t?vantikai could be referred to -vandy? ('praiseworthy'). Skt. Devavandy?, I find, occurs in list of 1008 names of the G?yatr? mantra: this slightly obscure place notwithstanding, it also makes better sense semantically: "she who is to be praised by the gods" rather than "a barren woman of [?] the gods", thus "a divine barren woman". On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Suresh Kolichala wrote: A more plausible derivation fort?vanti/t?vantikai would be from the flower namec?mant?/s?mant?/s?mantika ?the Indian white rose Rosa glandulifera?. The alternation of the radical vowel between ?- and ?- would point to a possible presence of palatal. In Telugu, this flower is known as c?mant?, c?mant? or c?vanti. Irregular word-initialc- >t- is not uncommon in Tamil and other Dravidian languages[1][2], as evident in the transformations of the following borrowings from Indo-Aryan: sattva ?strength? >cattuvam, tattuvam sn?nam ?bath? >t?nam samtati ?lineage? > tantati ?sanam ?posture? >?canam >?tanam Intervocalic /m/ > /v/ is well-known in South Dravidian. Therefore, I propose: *c?-/c?ma-nt-i> c?mant? > t?vanti ?the Indian white rose Rosa glandulifera?. It goes well with the other flower names used for characters in theCilappatik?ram such as m?tavi(related to m?dhavi). Regards, Suresh. [1] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c-:Toda t-" BSOAS 1953 [2] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c- and Its Developments JAOS1988. On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:43 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote: Instead of devavandhy?, could t?vantikai not correspond to Skt dev?ntik?, fem. of dev?nta(ka), a name of a r?k?asa and of a daitya (MW)? Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namenspalaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: donderdag 14 november 2013 12:11 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Dear Indologists, The Cilappatik?ram, the Tamil epic, has a character named T?vanti/T?vantikai. She was a brahmin and was a friend of the heroine, Ka??aki. She married C?tta?, a god in human form. Eight years after marriage, he revealed to her his real nature and left her asking her to come to his temple. Accordingly, she worshipped at the temple of C?tta?. At the end of the epic, when the temple to Ka??aki is inaugurated, T?vantikai, under possession by C?tta?, T?vantikai entered a trance and danced and C?tta? spoke through her. Later, the C?ra king Ce?ku??uva? established a grant for worship and daily celebration at the Ka??aki temple and appointed her to offer flowers, incense, and fragrances at the temple. After worshipping Ka??aki, the king and others including a brahmin named M??ala? entered a separate sacrificial hall where T?vantikai again spoke as an oracle. _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -- Whitney Cox Associate Professor and Director of Graduate Studies South Asian Languages and Civilizations University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Sat Nov 16 08:31:53 2013 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 13 08:31:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses In-Reply-To: <8D0B0B441196D05-1614-CD5C@webmail-vd012.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Even if she were a brahmin (paarppani could also be taken to mean "wife of a brahmin" afterall.), is that enough reason to reject the name devaantikaa? In any case, phonetically it seems the most straightforward solution. I admit, though, that it requires a thorough study of the role of the character in question. Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 16 november 2013 8:26 To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses There is no doubt she was a brahmin. It is very explicitly stated in Cilappatik?ram 30.69. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: palaniappa ; indology Sent: Fri, Nov 15, 2013 2:01 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses As to ? > a before a consonant cluster, as seen in t?vantikai from dev?ntik?, this is a normal development in Middle Indic. How certain are you that t?vantikai is ?brahmin?? Okay, she was married to a brahmin, but does that automatically means that she is ?brahmin?? Her subsequent career as oracle and soothsayer, all this while in trance, seems to put her into another category of people. Note in this connection that the protagonist of the Cilappatik?ram, Ka??aki, reveals herself as a veritable ugr? devat?, destroying Maturai by throwing her breast at it (see K?vya in South India, pp. 202-208). Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: vrijdag 15 november 2013 5:10 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Thanks for the responses. Here are my thoughts on the etymologies proposed. 1. dev?ntik? One problem with this etymology is the long '?' as the first vowel while the Tamil form has short 'a'. The second problem is the semantics. 'R?k?asa or daitya' does not fit either as a proper name or a class name for a brahmin girl or a temple priestess. 2. c?-/c?ma-nt-i> c?mant? > t?vanti One problem with this is that it cannot explain the variant T?vantikai. The second problem is that t?vanti is not attested in any literary or colloquial usage. In Tamil, the only forms known are c?manti, civanti, cevanti, and cevvanti. 3. devavandy? This is indeed the most attractive of the three. Indeed I too gave this a lot of thought before settling on devavandhy?. The reasons are these. vanti or vantiyai or vantikai is not attested as either as a proper name of a woman or a generic name of a praiseworthy woman in Tamil usage. The Tamil compilers of the Tamil Lexicon made up an amazing brain trust of Tamil scholarship that existed at that time, but with an overwhelming majority from upper caste - Aiyars, Aiyangars, Sastris, Pillais, Mudaliars, Chettiar, etc. While Iyodhi Doss and Abraham Pandithar were exceptions in terms of caste background, they were also highly informed with respect to Sanskritic usage. If vanti/vantiyai/vantikai had been used in the Tamil domain either as a proper noun or as a generic/class name to refer to a praiseworthy woman, they would have most probably listed it in the Tamil Lexicon with that meaning. The fact that Tamil Lexicon does not list it suggests that there is no attestation of such usage. That is my reason for rejecting it in favor of vanti/vantiyai/vantikai in the sense of 'childless woman'. All three of these usages are listed in Tamil Lexicon. As for barren/childless woman, one may not give a newborn child that name. But if the author has a tendency to use a generic/class name, such as the name for the childless woman in the Tiruvi?aiy??al Pur??am in some cases (possibly because he did not know the real name if the story had been already popular as possible in the case of the Cilappatik?ram), then the name 'childless woman' fits very well especially if other sources such as Pu?an????u 372 specifically mention that attribute of a priestess. (Another such usage is the case of Tarumi in the Tiruvi?aiy??al Pur??am, where as an ?di?aiva brahmin bachelor, he has to get married to be a priest but lacks the necessary money. But he is already given the name Tarumi meaning 'temple priest.) This is like naming a girl who is going to become a nun later in life 'childless woman'. There is nothing pejorative about it. It is merely descriptive. That is how some of these authors named their characters. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Whitney Cox > To: Suresh Kolichala > Cc: indology > Sent: Thu, Nov 14, 2013 12:45 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Equally, and by a set of sound changes essentially identical to those described by Palaniappan, the second element in t?vantikai could be referred to -vandy? ('praiseworthy'). Skt. Devavandy?, I find, occurs in list of 1008 names of the G?yatr? mantra: this slightly obscure place notwithstanding, it also makes better sense semantically: "she who is to be praised by the gods" rather than "a barren woman of [?] the gods", thus "a divine barren woman". On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Suresh Kolichala > wrote: A more plausible derivation for t?vanti/t?vantikai would be from the flower name c?mant?/s?mant?/s?mantika ?the Indian white rose Rosa glandulifera?. The alternation of the radical vowel between ?- and ?- would point to a possible presence of palatal. In Telugu, this flower is known as c?mant?, c?mant? or c?vanti. Irregular word-initial c- > t- is not uncommon in Tamil and other Dravidian languages[1][2], as evident in the transformations of the following borrowings from Indo-Aryan: sattva ?strength? > cattuvam, tattuvam sn?nam ?bath? > t?nam samtati ?lineage? > tantati ?sanam ?posture? > ?canam > ?tanam Intervocalic /m/ > /v/ is well-known in South Dravidian. Therefore, I propose: *c?-/c?ma-nt-i> c?mant? > t?vanti ?the Indian white rose Rosa glandulifera?. It goes well with the other flower names used for characters in the Cilappatik?ram such as m?tavi (related to m?dhavi). Regards, Suresh. [1] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c-:Toda t-" BSOAS 1953 [2] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c- and Its Developments JAOS1988. On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:43 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. > wrote: Instead of devavandhy?, could t?vantikai not correspond to Skt dev?ntik?, fem. of dev?nta(ka), a name of a r?k?asa and of a daitya (MW)? Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: donderdag 14 november 2013 12:11 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Dear Indologists, The Cilappatik?ram, the Tamil epic, has a character named T?vanti/T?vantikai. She was a brahmin and was a friend of the heroine, Ka??aki. She married C?tta?, a god in human form. Eight years after marriage, he revealed to her his real nature and left her asking her to come to his temple. Accordingly, she worshipped at the temple of C?tta?. At the end of the epic, when the temple to Ka??aki is inaugurated, T?vantikai, under possession by C?tta?, T?vantikai entered a trance and danced and C?tta? spoke through her. Later, the C?ra king Ce?ku??uva? established a grant for worship and daily celebration at the Ka??aki temple and appointed her to offer flowers, incense, and fragrances at the temple. After worshipping Ka??aki, the king and others including a brahmin named M??ala? entered a separate sacrificial hall where T?vantikai again spoke as an oracle. _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -- Whitney Cox Associate Professor and Director of Graduate Studies South Asian Languages and Civilizations University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Sun Nov 17 07:35:22 2013 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 13 13:05:22 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] page 178 of the Journal of Royal Asiatic Society vol 5. Message-ID: I need to look into page 178 of the Journal of Royal Asiatic Society vol 5. There is a reference to some Yadava Governors of Konkan. plz help Rupali Mokashi http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sun Nov 17 13:46:53 2013 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 13 08:46:53 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Brahmin Priestesses In-Reply-To: <8D0B16CB3C3E25C-1BA0-15BC8@webmail-va029.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0B1B29BE39D89-EF0-1A3F3@webmail-d166.sysops.aol.com> I just realized I did not send the following post to the list. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa To: H.J.H.Tieken Sent: Sat, Nov 16, 2013 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses In this case, we know that her husband was not really a brahmin. Since he was the one refers to her as p?rppa?i, it must be her own heritage and not a derived one by marriage. I do not know of any situation where p?rppa?i referred to an non-brahmin wife of a brahmin. In any case, Cilappatik?ram 30.93 refers to her as ma?aiy?? which shows clearly she was a brahmin. As for t?vantikai deriving from Skt. dev?ntik? by way of Middle Indic devantik?, if either of them is attested, then certainly it would be a possible source if we are considering the meaning suggested by Dr. Ganesan. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: palaniappa ; indology Sent: Sat, Nov 16, 2013 2:31 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Even if she were a brahmin (paarppani could also be taken to mean "wife of a brahmin" afterall.), is that enough reason to reject the name devaantikaa? In any case, phonetically it seems the most straightforward solution. I admit, though, that it requires a thorough study of the role of the character in question. Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 16 november 2013 8:26 To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses There is no doubt she was a brahmin. It is very explicitly stated in Cilappatik?ram 30.69. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. To: palaniappa ; indology Sent: Fri, Nov 15, 2013 2:01 am Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses As to? > a before a consonant cluster, as seen in t?vantikai from dev?ntik?, this is a normal development in Middle Indic. How certain are you thatt?vantikai is ?brahmin?? Okay, she was married to a brahmin, but does that automatically means that she is ?brahmin?? Her subsequent career as oracle and soothsayer, all this while in trance, seems to put her into another category of people. Note in this connection that the protagonist of the Cilappatik?ram, Ka??aki, reveals herself as a veritable ugr? devat?, destroying Maturai by throwing her breast at it (see K?vya in South India, pp. 202-208). Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namenspalaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: vrijdag 15 november 2013 5:10 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Thanks for the responses. Here are my thoughts on the etymologies proposed. 1. dev?ntik? One problem with this etymology is the long '?' as the first vowel while the Tamil form has short 'a'. The second problem is the semantics. 'R?k?asa or daitya' does not fit either as a proper name or a class name for a brahmin girl or a temple priestess. 2. c?-/c?ma-nt-i> c?mant? > t?vanti One problem with this is that it cannot explain the variant T?vantikai. The second problem is that t?vanti is not attested in any literary or colloquial usage. In Tamil, the only forms known are c?manti, civanti, cevanti, andcevvanti. 3. devavandy? This is indeed the most attractive of the three. Indeed I too gave this a lot of thought before settling on devavandhy?. The reasons are these. vanti or vantiyai or vantikai is not attested as either as a proper name of a woman or a generic name of a praiseworthy woman in Tamil usage. The Tamil compilers of the Tamil Lexicon made up an amazing brain trust of Tamil scholarship that existed at that time, but with an overwhelming majority from upper caste - Aiyars, Aiyangars, Sastris, Pillais, Mudaliars, Chettiar, etc. While Iyodhi Doss and Abraham Pandithar were exceptions in terms of caste background, they were also highly informed with respect to Sanskritic usage. Ifvanti/vantiyai/vantikai had been used in the Tamil domain either as a proper noun or as a generic/class name to refer to a praiseworthy woman, they would have most probably listed it in the Tamil Lexicon with that meaning. The fact that Tamil Lexicon does not list it suggests that there is no attestation of such usage. That is my reason for rejecting it in favor ofvanti/vantiyai/vantikai in the sense of 'childless woman'. All three of these usages are listed in Tamil Lexicon. As for barren/childless woman, one may not give a newborn child that name. But if the author has a tendency to use a generic/class name, such as the name for the childless woman in the Tiruvi?aiy??al Pur??am in some cases (possibly because he did not know the real name if the story had been already popular as possible in the case of the Cilappatik?ram), then the name 'childless woman' fits very well especially if other sources such as Pu?an????u 372 specifically mention that attribute of a priestess. (Another such usage is the case of Tarumi in the Tiruvi?aiy??al Pur??am, where as an ?di?aiva brahmin bachelor, he has to get married to be a priest but lacks the necessary money. But he is already given the name Tarumi meaning 'temple priest.) This is like naming a girl who is going to become a nun later in life 'childless woman'. There is nothing pejorative about it. It is merely descriptive. That is how some of these authors named their characters. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Whitney Cox To: Suresh Kolichala Cc: indology Sent: Thu, Nov 14, 2013 12:45 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Equally, and by a set of sound changes essentially identical to those described by Palaniappan, the second element in t?vantikai could be referred to -vandy? ('praiseworthy'). Skt. Devavandy?, I find, occurs in list of 1008 names of the G?yatr? mantra: this slightly obscure place notwithstanding, it also makes better sense semantically: "she who is to be praised by the gods" rather than "a barren woman of [?] the gods", thus "a divine barren woman". On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Suresh Kolichala wrote: A more plausible derivation fort?vanti/t?vantikai would be from the flower namec?mant?/s?mant?/s?mantika ?the Indian white rose Rosa glandulifera?. The alternation of the radical vowel between ?- and ?- would point to a possible presence of palatal. In Telugu, this flower is known as c?mant?, c?mant? or c?vanti. Irregular word-initialc- >t- is not uncommon in Tamil and other Dravidian languages[1][2], as evident in the transformations of the following borrowings from Indo-Aryan: sattva ?strength? >cattuvam, tattuvam sn?nam ?bath? >t?nam samtati ?lineage? > tantati ?sanam ?posture? >?canam >?tanam Intervocalic /m/ > /v/ is well-known in South Dravidian. Therefore, I propose: *c?-/c?ma-nt-i> c?mant? > t?vanti ?the Indian white rose Rosa glandulifera?. It goes well with the other flower names used for characters in theCilappatik?ram such as m?tavi(related to m?dhavi). Regards, Suresh. [1] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c-:Toda t-" BSOAS 1953 [2] Emeneau, Murray, Proto-Dravidian *c- and Its Developments JAOS1988. On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:43 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote: Instead of devavandhy?, could t?vantikai not correspond to Skt dev?ntik?, fem. of dev?nta(ka), a name of a r?k?asa and of a daitya (MW)? Herman Tieken University of Leiden The Netherlands website:hermantieken.com Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namenspalaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: donderdag 14 november 2013 12:11 To: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Brahmin Priestesses Dear Indologists, The Cilappatik?ram, the Tamil epic, has a character named T?vanti/T?vantikai. She was a brahmin and was a friend of the heroine, Ka??aki. She married C?tta?, a god in human form. Eight years after marriage, he revealed to her his real nature and left her asking her to come to his temple. Accordingly, she worshipped at the temple of C?tta?. At the end of the epic, when the temple to Ka??aki is inaugurated, T?vantikai, under possession by C?tta?, T?vantikai entered a trance and danced and C?tta? spoke through her. Later, the C?ra king Ce?ku??uva? established a grant for worship and daily celebration at the Ka??aki temple and appointed her to offer flowers, incense, and fragrances at the temple. After worshipping Ka??aki, the king and others including a brahmin named M??ala? entered a separate sacrificial hall where T?vantikai again spoke as an oracle. _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -- Whitney Cox Associate Professor and Director of Graduate Studies South Asian Languages and Civilizations University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From practicesyoga at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 01:07:00 2013 From: practicesyoga at gmail.com (Charlie Higgins) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 13 17:07:00 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lamentations Message-ID: Hello all, I hope not to be too naive in asking: Can anyone recommend primary or secondary sources regarding Indian "lamentations"? Does such a genre exist? etc.? I have been reading Song Dynasty Neo-Confucian writers like Zhu Xi, who ridicules contemporary behaviors and customs as degradations of ancient practices, and I began to wonder about similar lamentations from India. My question doesn't refer so much to prophecies regarding the cycle of ages (satya--kaliyuga) and their degradation into the present. I'm wondering about potential firsthand observations that compare present with past and lament contemporary practices. I'm clueless, and any helpful suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you! Charlie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Mon Nov 18 02:14:02 2013 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 13 18:14:02 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lamentations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Charlie, The notion of "laulyam", "ardent longing" (MW), in the sense of lamenting the world's state, and one's own fallen condition, and thus longing for pure love of God and pure empathy with all souls, is a central them in the expansive Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition. Excellent and numerous examples of this lamenting are found in the celebrated songs of Narottama Dasa Thakura http://www.vaishnavsongs.com/narottam-das-thakur/ (click on 'bhajans' at the bottom), and Bhaktivinoda Thakura http://kksongs.org/authors/full_list/bhaktivinoda_full.html Even today, these songs remain very much canonical, and widely performed, in the GV tradition. Best, Howard On Nov 17, 2013, at 5:07 PM, Charlie Higgins wrote: > Hello all, > > I hope not to be too naive in asking: Can anyone recommend primary or secondary sources regarding Indian "lamentations"? Does such a genre exist? etc.? I have been reading Song Dynasty Neo-Confucian writers like Zhu Xi, who ridicules contemporary behaviors and customs as degradations of ancient practices, and I began to wonder about similar lamentations from India. My question doesn't refer so much to prophecies regarding the cycle of ages (satya--kaliyuga) and their degradation into the present. I'm wondering about potential firsthand observations that compare present with past and lament contemporary practices. I'm clueless, and any helpful suggestions would be appreciated. > > Thank you! > > Charlie > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info From practicesyoga at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 03:39:51 2013 From: practicesyoga at gmail.com (Charlie Higgins) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 13 19:39:51 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lamentations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kevin and Howard- Thank you for your prompt responses. I will look into both of your suggestions in the coming days. Also, thank you in advance to others who reply. I might clarify that the thrust of Zhu Xi's 'laments' are historical and comparative. He criticizes ritual behavior and contemporary customs as degradations of those practices of his predecessors. X is worse than Y because of Z. Zhi Xi's treatise might be more social critiques than laments. Thanks again, Charlie Charlie Higgins Yoga Instructor / Sedentary-Living Specialist 503-380-7427 http://practices-yoga.com/ On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 6:14 PM, Howard Resnick
wrote: > Hello Charlie, > The notion of "laulyam", "ardent longing" (MW), in the sense of > lamenting the world's state, and one's own fallen condition, and thus > longing for pure love of God and pure empathy with all souls, is a central > them in the expansive Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition. > > Excellent and numerous examples of this lamenting are found in the > celebrated songs of Narottama Dasa Thakura > http://www.vaishnavsongs.com/narottam-das-thakur/ (click on 'bhajans' at > the bottom), and Bhaktivinoda Thakura > http://kksongs.org/authors/full_list/bhaktivinoda_full.html > > Even today, these songs remain very much canonical, and widely > performed, in the GV tradition. > > Best, > Howard > > > On Nov 17, 2013, at 5:07 PM, Charlie Higgins > wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > I hope not to be too naive in asking: Can anyone recommend primary or > secondary sources regarding Indian "lamentations"? Does such a genre > exist? etc.? I have been reading Song Dynasty Neo-Confucian writers like > Zhu Xi, who ridicules contemporary behaviors and customs as degradations of > ancient practices, and I began to wonder about similar lamentations from > India. My question doesn't refer so much to prophecies regarding the cycle > of ages (satya--kaliyuga) and their degradation into the present. I'm > wondering about potential firsthand observations that compare present with > past and lament contemporary practices. I'm clueless, and any helpful > suggestions would be appreciated. > > > > Thank you! > > > > Charlie > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > http://listinfo.indology.info > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 07:55:04 2013 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 13 13:25:04 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] page 178 of the Journal of Royal Asiatic Society vol 5. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Domink, Suresh, Alexander?, Francois for your help. The reference I was searching for was noted in the article ' Mr. Wathen's Translation..' Rupali Mokashi http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/ On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Dr. Rupali Mokashi < dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com> wrote: > I need to look into page 178 of the Journal of Royal Asiatic Society vol > 5. There is a reference to some Yadava Governors of Konkan. plz help > Rupali Mokashi > http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Mon Nov 18 13:12:06 2013 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 13 07:12:06 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lamentations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think there is a lamentation tradition in Buddhism -- vil?pa. You find such a lament in nice in the Buddhacarita where there are two laments by the wife and mother. The Ya?odhar? lament has come into Sinhala, and Ranjini Obeyesekere has published a book on it: Yasodaravata: The Story of Yasodara or Yasodara's Lament. Colombo: Godage International Publishers, 2005. Patrick On Nov 17, 2013, at 7:07 PM, Charlie Higgins wrote: > Hello all, > > I hope not to be too naive in asking: Can anyone recommend primary or secondary sources regarding Indian "lamentations"? Does such a genre exist? etc.? I have been reading Song Dynasty Neo-Confucian writers like Zhu Xi, who ridicules contemporary behaviors and customs as degradations of ancient practices, and I began to wonder about similar lamentations from India. My question doesn't refer so much to prophecies regarding the cycle of ages (satya--kaliyuga) and their degradation into the present. I'm wondering about potential firsthand observations that compare present with past and lament contemporary practices. I'm clueless, and any helpful suggestions would be appreciated. > > Thank you! > > Charlie > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info From kmcgrath at fas.harvard.edu Mon Nov 18 13:17:43 2013 From: kmcgrath at fas.harvard.edu (kmcgrath at fas.harvard.edu) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 13 08:17:43 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lamentations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1384780663.528a13779e052@webmail.fas.harvard.edu> Dear Charlie & All, I have addressed this tradition of feminine lamentation in the MBh., in 'Stri: Women in Epic Mahabharata', p.183ff. (HUP, 2009; and Orient Longman, 2011). http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674031982 Margaret Alexiou has covered the cognate Hellenic field in her study of 'Ritual Lament in the Greek Tradition' (1974). With best wishes, from, Kevin. Quoting Patrick Olivelle : > I think there is a lamentation tradition in Buddhism -- vil??pa. You find > such a lament in nice in the Buddhacarita where there are two laments by the > wife and mother. The Ya??odhar?? lament has come into Sinhala, and Ranjini > Obeyesekere has published a book on it: Yasodaravata: The Story of Yasodara > or Yasodara's Lament. Colombo: Godage International Publishers, 2005. > > Patrick > > > > On Nov 17, 2013, at 7:07 PM, Charlie Higgins wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > I hope not to be too naive in asking: Can anyone recommend primary or > secondary sources regarding Indian "lamentations"? Does such a genre exist? > etc.? I have been reading Song Dynasty Neo-Confucian writers like Zhu Xi, > who ridicules contemporary behaviors and customs as degradations of ancient > practices, and I began to wonder about similar lamentations from India. My > question doesn't refer so much to prophecies regarding the cycle of ages > (satya--kaliyuga) and their degradation into the present. I'm wondering > about potential firsthand observations that compare present with past and > lament contemporary practices. I'm clueless, and any helpful suggestions > would be appreciated. > > > > Thank you! > > > > Charlie > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > http://listinfo.indology.info > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Mon Nov 18 13:59:48 2013 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 13 13:59:48 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lamentations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED07F957B@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Dear all, The thread that Charlie began is beginning to confuse me. His word choice - 'lamentations' - was perhaps inexact, but he did state clearly that what he wanted information about concerned the criticism of present mores as "degradations of ancient practices," which is not at all the same thing as the laments of Yasodhara, etc. (Or, for that matter, lamentation as we find it in the Psalm: "By the rivers of Babylon, where we wept when we remembered Zion....") What is at stake seems not weeping and wailing due to personal misfortune, but rather a sense of world-weariness on observing the present bad state of things relative to past glories. I'm not sure that we have a single term for this, and 'lamentation' seems to invite misinterpretation here. In any case, Buddhism has had much to say about the decline in time of life, mores, and intelligence, and, though this is, of course, related to more general Indian theories of temporal cycles, I think sometimes we find elements here of the kind that prompted Charlie's query. Though a neo-Confucian author like Zhu Xi certainly had plenty of purely Chinese models to draw on, it is possible too, that Chinese Buddhist 'decline of the doctrine' - mofa -- discourse also motivated him. In any case, a good place to begin would be with Jan Nattier's fine book, Once Upon a Future Time, which deals with the Indian Buddhist antecedents for all this and aspects of their legacy in China. Certainly in Tibet, discourses of the type that Charlie mentions emerged by about the 11th or 12th c. For example, the famous lament attributed to Rong zom Chos bzang concerning the great virtues of past translators and the degeneration of those at present (see, e.g., Sources of Tibetan Tradition, 186-188). The theory of the ages of the Dharma promulgated in the 14th c. by Dol po pa is also of interest here, as it explicitly traces a degeneration of Buddhist commentarial traditions. As Dol po pa's inspiration is derived from the KAlacakratantra and its commentaries, there may well be Indian precedents. (I discuss this in my The Tibetan Assimilation of Buddhism, pp. 106-119; for more on Dol po pa, see Cyrus Stearns' Buddha from Dolpo.) In sum, though the Indian sources may have been presented in a generalized framework of kalpas and yugas, they seem to have provoked, in China and Tibet, the kind of very specific lament Charlie sees in Zhu Xi. Outside of Buddhism, I would imagine that later medieval and early modern material on kingship, specifically in connection with the idealization of RAma, might have also produced critical reflections on the degenerate present. Perhaps others will be able to fill in here. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Mon Nov 18 15:05:13 2013 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 13 16:05:13 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <528A2CA9.5030908@uni-muenchen.de> It seems that the ongoing struggle in India to reach keyboard standards led to three basic systems. One is Inscript, which has been adapted for all Indian scripts and has its own internal logic, but is a headache to learn. ????? is typed "k= [...] It's the same whatever program I'm using, because the > keyboard/language stuff is handled by the operating system, not each > individual program. As far as I know, anyhow. That's what i don't understand about Patrick Olivelle's remark that the keyboard layout doesn't work with MS Word. For me it only further underscores that Word is simply not a good program (on the Mac I use LibreOffice. No problems whatsoever). > It's handled by software > on my system, Ubuntu Linux, called Ibus and m17n (which comes with > Devanagari and IAST romanization already pre-defined). Actually, on my Scientific Linux (Red Hat derivative) computer, I use the KGP layout for Kannada in Ibus, for the reason given above. Robert From info at topica.nl Mon Nov 18 16:20:45 2013 From: info at topica.nl (TopicA) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 13 17:20:45 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] a river Message-ID: <522E7AA2031C421FB117EBFFFA7268AD@TopicA1> Dear Indologists, Some years ago I retrieved a piece a cloth, with several images on it, probably from the Ramayana or Mahabarata. Could some one possibly help me on this issue: which episode is here represented on the cloth? With kind regards, A. Hanekuyk Leiden, the Netherlands info at topica.nl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nr9.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 76107 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Tue Nov 19 02:08:08 2013 From: rajam at earthlink.net (Rajam) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 13 18:08:08 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lamentations In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED07F957B@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: In the Tamil tradition of South India ? 1. "Lamentation" is a practice in families when a death occurs. This practice may vary from family to family. As a brahmin, I know of this practice being followed at least in the villages for ten days following a death. Village women gather at the home of the deceased and "lament" (== sing songs) the death. In some families it is practiced at least once a day (at dusk) or twice a day (at dawn and dusk). In some places, women are "hired" to do this, and these women are called "k?likku m?r a?ipp?r ('those who are hired for beating their chest')." A student of mine has done her Ph.D research on this topic, and she also sings those songs, which are called "opp?ri" during an annual festival of celeberating traditional literary genres or something like that. 2. "Lamentation" is also a literary genre, where a woman laments the separation of her lover, as we see in Old Tamil literature. Basically it is nostalgia. Regards, Rajam On Nov 18, 2013, at 5:59 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > Dear all, > > The thread that Charlie began is beginning to confuse me. His word choice - 'lamentations' - was > perhaps inexact, but he did state clearly that what he wanted information about concerned > the criticism of present mores as "degradations of ancient practices," which is not at all > the same thing as the laments of Yasodhara, etc. (Or, for that matter, lamentation as we find it in the Psalm: > "By the rivers of Babylon, where we wept when we remembered Zion....") > > What is at stake seems not weeping and wailing due to personal misfortune, but rather a sense of world-weariness on observing the present bad state of things relative to past glories. I'm not sure that > we have a single term for this, and 'lamentation' seems to invite misinterpretation here. > > In any case, Buddhism has had much to say about the decline in time of life, mores, and intelligence, and, > though this is, of course, related to more general Indian theories of temporal cycles, I think sometimes > we find elements here of the kind that prompted Charlie's query. Though a neo-Confucian author like > Zhu Xi certainly had plenty of purely Chinese models to draw on, it is possible too, that > Chinese Buddhist 'decline of the doctrine' - mofa -- discourse also motivated him. In any case, > a good place to begin would be with Jan Nattier's fine book, Once Upon a Future Time, which > deals with the Indian Buddhist antecedents for all this and aspects of their legacy in China. > > Certainly in Tibet, discourses of the type that Charlie mentions emerged by about the 11th or 12th c. For > example, the famous lament attributed to Rong zom Chos bzang concerning the great virtues of > past translators and the degeneration of those at present (see, e.g., Sources of Tibetan Tradition, 186-188). > > The theory of the ages of the Dharma promulgated in the 14th c. by Dol po pa is also of interest here, > as it explicitly traces a degeneration of Buddhist commentarial traditions. As Dol po pa's > inspiration is derived from the KAlacakratantra and its commentaries, there may well > be Indian precedents. (I discuss this in my The Tibetan Assimilation of Buddhism, pp. 106-119; for more > on Dol po pa, see Cyrus Stearns' Buddha from Dolpo.) > > In sum, though the Indian sources may have been presented in a generalized framework of kalpas and yugas, > they seem to have provoked, in China and Tibet, the kind of very specific lament Charlie sees in Zhu Xi. > Outside of Buddhism, I would imagine that later medieval and early modern material on kingship, > specifically in connection with the idealization of RAma, might have also produced critical reflections > on the degenerate present. Perhaps others will be able to fill in here. > > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clarsha at mcmaster.ca Tue Nov 19 17:11:33 2013 From: clarsha at mcmaster.ca (Shayne Clarke) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 13 12:11:33 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] missing obituary notices: Bhikkhu Jinananda Message-ID: Dear list members, I am searching for an obituary notice for Prof. B. Jinananda. An obituary is mentioned in the table of contents to Sanghasen Singh's Sarv?stiv?da and its Traditions (Delhi 1994). However, the obituary (actually multiple obituaries, including those for P. V. Bapat, Raghunath Pandey, and Shanti Bikshu [sic] Shastri) is missing from the volume in question (both in my own personal copy and the library copy at McMaster). The obituarist is listed as Priya Sen Singh. If anybody on the list has these obituaries, I would be much obliged for a copy. One thing that I am attempting to figure out is who supervised Prof. B. Jinananda's PhD "A Study of the Pali Vinaya Mahavagga in Comparison with the corresponding sections of the Gilgit Manuscripts" at SOAS in 1953. The name of the supervisor seems not to be mentioned in the dissertation itself. Thank you in advance for your help. Sincerely, Shayne Clarke ------------------- Associate Professor Department of Religious Studies McMaster University University Hall, Room 104 1280 Main Street West Hamilton, Ontario L8S 4K1 CANADA Phone: 905 525 9140, ext. 23389 Fax: 905 525 8161 clarsha[at]mcmaster.ca http://www.religiousstudies.mcmaster.ca/faculty/clarsha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Wed Nov 20 00:03:58 2013 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 13 00:03:58 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] missing obituary notices: Bhikkhu Jinananda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED07F99B3@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Dear Shayne, 1953 at SOAS would likely have been Basham, no? Just a guess; no doubt someone there can look it up for you. good luck, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________________ From dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk Wed Nov 20 10:39:59 2013 From: dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk (dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 13 10:39:59 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] missing obituary notices: Bhikkhu Jinananda In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED07F99B3@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <528C917F.18608.9DEA45@localhost> With due respect to Matthew Kapstein's suggestion, I'd say Jinananda's supervisor was more likely to have been John Brough, who unlike Basham was a Pali (and Sanskrit) specialist. That's not to say it couldn't have been Basham, who had an extraordinary range of competence. Dermot Killingley On 20 Nov 2013 at 0:03, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > Dear Shayne, > > 1953 at SOAS would likely have been Basham, no? Just a guess; no doubt > someone there can look it up for you. > > good luck, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > ________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info From psdmccartney at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 08:30:01 2013 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 16:30:01 +0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Could someone please point me towards the reference where ?udras would have molten lead or some other substance poured into their ears as punishment for having heard the recitation of Sanskrit mantras. I'm wondering also what punishment would be dispensed to someone uttering Sanskrit verses or perhaps speaking Sanskrit. -- All the best, Patrick McCartney PhD Candidate School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Rm 4.30 Baldessin Precinct Building skype - psdmccartney W- +61 2 6125 4323 M - +91 9714120772 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfpCc8G_cUw&feature=related -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Thu Nov 21 11:21:23 2013 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 12:21:23 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <528DECB3.9040806@uni-muenchen.de> It should be somewhere in the Manusm?ti, according to the inexact references which I keep coming across. Robert Zydenbos patrick mccartney wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Could someone please point me towards the reference where ?udras would > have molten lead or some other substance poured into their ears as > punishment for having heard the recitation of Sanskrit mantras. > > I'm wondering also what punishment would be dispensed to someone > uttering Sanskrit verses or perhaps speaking Sanskrit. -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institute of Indology and Tibetology Department of Asian Studies University of Munich Germany Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 Web http://zydenbos.userweb.mwn.de/ From michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de Thu Nov 21 11:44:49 2013 From: michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Michaels, Axel) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 12:44:49 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Compare Manu 8.272. Best, Axel Michaels From: patrick mccartney > Date: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:30 AM To: "indology at list.indology.info" > Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears Dear Colleagues, Could someone please point me towards the reference where ?udras would have molten lead or some other substance poured into their ears as punishment for having heard the recitation of Sanskrit mantras. I'm wondering also what punishment would be dispensed to someone uttering Sanskrit verses or perhaps speaking Sanskrit. -- All the best, Patrick McCartney PhD Candidate School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Rm 4.30 Baldessin Precinct Building skype - psdmccartney W- +61 2 6125 4323 M - +91 9714120772 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfpCc8G_cUw&feature=related -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Thu Nov 21 13:04:44 2013 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 14:04:44 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kane, HISTORY OF THE DHARMA ??STRA, VOL. II PART I, p. 82, Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Poona 1941 http://www.srimatham.com/uploads/5/5/4/9/5549439/history_of_dharma_sastras.pdf has this: <<...the practice current in the times of the Ved?nta-s?tras that the ??dra is not entitled to study the Veda. Gaut. XII.4 went so far as to prescribe:? ?if the ??dra intentionally listens for committing to memory the Veda, then his ears should be filled with (molten) lead and lac; if he utters the Veda, then his tongue may be cut off; if he has mastered the Veda his body should be hacked'.>> Hoping it's of some help, Regards, Artur Karp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Thu Nov 21 13:25:20 2013 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 05:25:20 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Were these ghastly strictures ever carried out, to our knowledge? It reminds one of poor Willian Tyndale. Best, Howard On Nov 21, 2013, at 5:04 AM, Artur Karp wrote: > Kane, HISTORY OF THE DHARMA ??STRA, VOL. II PART I, p. 82, Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Poona 1941 > > http://www.srimatham.com/uploads/5/5/4/9/5549439/history_of_dharma_sastras.pdf > > has this: > > > <<...the practice current in the times of the Ved?nta-s?tras that the ??dra is not entitled to study the Veda. > > Gaut. XII.4 went so far as to prescribe:? > > ?if the ??dra intentionally listens for committing to memory the Veda, then his ears should be filled with (molten) lead and lac; if he utters the Veda, then his tongue may be cut off; if he has mastered the Veda his body should be hacked'.>> > > Hoping it's of some help, > > Regards, > > Artur Karp > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Thu Nov 21 13:32:16 2013 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 07:32:16 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, it is not lead but tin and lac. For this see, Gautama Dharmas?tra 12.4 (the whole section is a diatribe against ??dras). Patrick On Nov 21, 2013, at 5:44 AM, "Michaels, Axel" wrote: > Compare Manu 8.272. > Best, > Axel Michaels > > From: patrick mccartney > Date: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:30 AM > To: "indology at list.indology.info" > Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears > > Dear Colleagues, > > Could someone please point me towards the reference where ?udras would have molten lead or some other substance poured into their ears as punishment for having heard the recitation of Sanskrit mantras. > > I'm wondering also what punishment would be dispensed to someone uttering Sanskrit verses or perhaps speaking Sanskrit. > > -- > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney > > PhD Candidate > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > Rm 4.30 Baldessin Precinct Building > > skype - psdmccartney > W- +61 2 6125 4323 > M - +91 9714120772 > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfpCc8G_cUw&feature=related > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu Thu Nov 21 13:37:33 2013 From: edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu (edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 08:37:33 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Actually, it is not lead but tin and lac. For this see, Gautama > Dharmas??tra 12.4 (the whole section is a diatribe against ????dras). Do we have any evidence outside of the Dharma Shastra prescriptions - in Epic or Puranic or early Buddhist/Jain narratives, for example - that such practices actually occurred? One might expect that any such occurrences would provide fuel for anti-brahman polemic, or be referenced in literature undermining brahman hegemony. Edwin Bryant. From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Thu Nov 21 13:51:12 2013 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 13:51:12 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0801051@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> >Were these ghastly strictures ever carried out, to our knowledge? This is of course very difficult to answer. However, we do know that real atrocities are committed against lower caste persons regularly in India - anyone who follows Indian newspapers will be aware of this. And, in particuler, lower caste persons who are perceived as somehow "uppity" are routinely the victims. A particularly harrowing, though fictional, reflection may be found in Rohinton Mistry's novel A Fine Balance. Manu & co., at the very least, provided an ideological fig leaf to cover genuinely monstrous behavior. Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________________ From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 13:58:57 2013 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 19:28:57 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] sintra edict of Haripaldeva Message-ID: I am searching for the foto of sintra edict of Shilahara King Haripaldeva that was taken to Sintra, Portugal. I need the foto or the address/contact of the concerned instituion/museum at Sintra Rupali Mokashi ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Thu Nov 21 14:25:32 2013 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 08:25:32 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0801051@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <53280A50-A498-4A5C-BBB1-993016A60BC8@uts.cc.utexas.edu> Irrespective of the on-the-ground reality, hyperbole does have real-life functions and effects -- just think of all the sermons on the fire and torture of hell!! What this shows is the effort by the Brahmanical authors to shape social and moral attitudes. P On Nov 21, 2013, at 7:51 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: >> Were these ghastly strictures ever carried out, to our knowledge? > > This is of course very difficult to answer. However, we do know that real atrocities are committed against lower caste persons > regularly in India - anyone who follows Indian newspapers will be aware of this. And, in particuler, lower caste persons who are > perceived as somehow "uppity" are routinely the victims. > > A particularly harrowing, though fictional, reflection may be found in Rohinton Mistry's novel A Fine Balance. > > Manu & co., at the very least, provided an ideological fig leaf to cover genuinely monstrous behavior. > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > ________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info From francois.voegeli at unil.ch Thu Nov 21 16:11:07 2013 From: francois.voegeli at unil.ch (=?utf-8?Q?Fran=C3=A7ois_Voegeli?=) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 17:11:07 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuiper's Proto-Munda Words Message-ID: <8ACC8038-92C5-440C-BED3-E4649D12038E@unil.ch> Dear Members of the List, Does anyone know where to finde an electronic copy of the above-mentioned work of Kuiper? Thanks in advance, Dr Fran?ois Voegeli Senior FNS Researcher Institut d'Arch?ologie et des Sciences de l'Antiquit? Anthropole, bureau 4018 Facult? des Lettres Universit? de Lausanne CH-1015 Lausanne From francois.voegeli at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 16:16:06 2013 From: francois.voegeli at gmail.com (Francois Voegeli) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 17:16:06 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuiper's Proto-Munda Words Message-ID: Dear Member of the List, Does anyone know where to find an electronic copy of the above mentioned reference of Kuiper, or at least tell me what/if he says something about kupinii-, kuve.naa-, kuve.nii-, Pal. kumina.m on p. 159. Thanks in advance, Dr Fran?ois Voegeli Senior FNS Researcher Institut d'Arch?ologie et des Sciences de l'Antiquit? Anthropole, bureau 4018 Facult? des Lettres Universit? de Lausanne CH-1015 Lausanne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From witzel at fas.harvard.edu Thu Nov 21 16:23:00 2013 From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 11:23:00 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] EJVS 20-3 published Message-ID: <61E3C997-5E13-4186-B92A-C0DB190EC62D@fas.harvard.edu> We are happy to announce another installment of the Electronical Journal of Vedic Studies, Vol. 20 (2013) Issue 3 Philologische Beitr?ge (1-3) (Philological Contributions) by Marcos Albino Summary: Starting with the current publication, I propose to begin a series of contributions,in which I will formulate observations on individual problems of Indo-European philology and linguistics. These papers probably would not amount to ?regular? articles as I either plead for an earlier interpretation that has been wrongly rejected or forgotten, or I discuss an apparently wrong proposal, however without being able to propose my own solution. > ============ > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > Wales Prof. of Sanskrit & > Director of Graduate Studies, > Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, fax 617 - 496 8571; > my direct line: 617- 496 2990 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jwn3y at cms.mail.virginia.edu Thu Nov 21 16:37:32 2013 From: jwn3y at cms.mail.virginia.edu (John Nemec) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 11:37:32 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears In-Reply-To: <53280A50-A498-4A5C-BBB1-993016A60BC8@uts.cc.utexas.edu> Message-ID: It might be worth adding that similarly horrific punishments also appear in the narrative literature, such as the KathAsaritsAgara, and sometimes with not a chilling but a comic effect. Still, I wouldn't interpret such episodes as evidence of the absence of literal application of such punishments "on the ground." John On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 08:25:32 -0600 Patrick Olivelle wrote: >Irrespective of the on-the-ground reality, hyperbole does have real-life functions and effects -- just think of all the sermons on the fire and torture of hell!! What this shows is the effort by the Brahmanical authors to shape social and moral attitudes. > > >P > > > > >On Nov 21, 2013, at 7:51 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > >>> Were these ghastly strictures ever carried out, to our knowledge? >> >> This is of course very difficult to answer. However, we do know that real atrocities are committed against lower caste persons >> regularly in India - anyone who follows Indian newspapers will be aware of this. And, in particuler, lower caste persons who are >> perceived as somehow "uppity" are routinely the victims. >> >> A particularly harrowing, though fictional, reflection may be found in Rohinton Mistry's novel A Fine Balance. >> >> Manu & co., at the very least, provided an ideological fig leaf to cover genuinely monstrous behavior. >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> >> ________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info > > >_______________________________________________ >INDOLOGY mailing list >INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >http://listinfo.indology.info __________________________________ John Nemec, Ph.D. Associate Professor, Indian Religions and South Asian Studies Department of Religious Studies University of Virginia 323 Gibson Hall / 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue Charlottesville, VA 22904 (USA) nemec at virginia.edu +1-434-924-6716 http://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec From palaniappa at aol.com Fri Nov 22 00:05:38 2013 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 19:05:38 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8D0B52DB565F7C7-EF0-50BB9@webmail-m264.sysops.aol.com> For ?a?kara's views on this issue, see http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe34/sbe34107.htm R?m?nuja also essentially had the same opinion in his commentary. See http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe48/sbe48137.htm On the other hand, what is interesting is that for ?r?vai??avas like R?m?nuja, the ??dra saint Namm??v?r was/is the foremost saint. If you search Indology archives on 'molten', you will find a thread on the issue. Here is a post by Madhav Deshpande. http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2000-January/020112.html A discussion on the issue of ??dra's eligibility to study the Vedas is also found in another thread. Follow the thread from http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/1998-March/011448.html Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Artur Karp To: patrick mccartney Cc: indology Sent: Thu, Nov 21, 2013 7:05 am Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears Kane, HISTORY OF THE DHARMA ??STRA, VOL. II PART I, p. 82, Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Poona 1941 http://www.srimatham.com/uploads/5/5/4/9/5549439/history_of_dharma_sastras.pdf has this: <<...the practice current in the times of the Ved?nta-s?tras that the ??dra is not entitled to study the Veda. Gaut. XII.4 went so far as to prescribe:? ?if the ??dra intentionally listens for committing to memory the Veda, then his ears should be filled with (molten) lead and lac; if he utters the Veda, then his tongue may be cut off; if he has mastered the Veda his body should be hacked'.>> Hoping it's of some help, Regards, Artur Karp _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Fri Nov 22 00:19:05 2013 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 13 16:19:05 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears In-Reply-To: <8D0B52DB565F7C7-EF0-50BB9@webmail-m264.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <0EB2E3DF-2336-4D4D-96F7-2C294EFAE30F@berkeley.edu> I think it is important to point out that in Tamil Nadu, perhaps 3-4% of the population is ?twice-born,? that is Brahmin (since one cannot really find K?atriyas and Vai?yas) and that Namm??v?r was of a high caste (j?ti) that in influence, wealth and prestige was probably in many ways superior to the Brahmins. It is true that the ?r?vai??ava Brahmins (Iyengars) consider Namm??v?r a ?udra (along with 96% of the rest of the population), but that does not keep them from regarding his works as the Tamil Vedas, in every way as holy and respected as the Sanskrit Vedas. George On Nov 21, 2013, at 4:05 PM, Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: > For ?a?kara's views on this issue, see > http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe34/sbe34107.htm > > R?m?nuja also essentially had the same opinion in his commentary. See > http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe48/sbe48137.htm > > On the other hand, what is interesting is that for ?r?vai??avas like R?m?nuja, the ??dra saint Namm??v?r was/is the foremost saint. > > If you search Indology archives on 'molten', you will find a thread on the issue. Here is a post by Madhav Deshpande. http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2000-January/020112.html > > A discussion on the issue of ??dra's eligibility to study the Vedas is also found in another thread. Follow the thread from http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/1998-March/011448.html > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Artur Karp > To: patrick mccartney > Cc: indology > Sent: Thu, Nov 21, 2013 7:05 am > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears > > Kane, HISTORY OF THE DHARMA ??STRA, VOL. II PART I, p. 82, Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Poona 1941 > > http://www.srimatham.com/uploads/5/5/4/9/5549439/history_of_dharma_sastras.pdf > > has this: > > > <<...the practice current in the times of the Ved?nta-s?tras that the ??dra is not entitled to study the Veda. > > Gaut. XII.4 went so far as to prescribe:? > > ?if the ??dra intentionally listens for committing to memory the Veda, then his ears should be filled with (molten) lead and lac; if he utters the Veda, then his tongue may be cut off; if he has mastered the Veda his body should be hacked'.>> > > Hoping it's of some help, > > Regards, > > Artur Karp > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Fri Nov 22 11:48:44 2013 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 13 11:48:44 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Who is Sumati In-Reply-To: <20130907160551.Horde.UD_PPoecwTlSKzK-W4fE-RA@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED080274F@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu> Following further on Viktoria Lysenko's query and Jay Soni's helpful response, I note that several other Hindi works on Jain philosophy take up the problem of Sumati as well. These include: ??????????? ???????? , ??? ????? (Bharatiya Jnanpith Prakashan 1966), pages 25, 151 ?????????? ??? , ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? (Varanasi 1995) pages 27, 30, 45, 62-3, 66 For the most part, these just review what can be gleaned from TS and TSP, and include, too, the same references already given by Jay Soni. The former clarifies, though, that the "the eulogy of Malli?e?a" is from an inscription found at Sravanabelgola, with full citation and references to the published text of the inscription in question. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________ From franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it Fri Nov 22 23:51:09 2013 From: franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it (Marco Franceschini) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 13 23:51:09 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Collegues, I'm desperately trying to find out which text is contained in a manuscript that I'm currently cataloguing. The manuscript (belonging to the Cambridge UL collection) is written in Grantha script. The text appears to be composed of four p??has, called ark??i, vrat?ni, dundu, ?ukl??i: the p??has are organized into sections called (from the larger to the smaller) kha??a, s?ma, mantra (this last always abbreviated as ma.). The beginning of the text runs like this: om v?co v?te dve | huve v?c?m | t? | v?ca? v?ca? huve v?k | ?hya ?ya ta ?a | ???otu ?r?otu v?g v?k | hy? dya ta ?a | samai tu samai tu v?g v?k | re | ramat?? ramat?? ram?t? au ho v? | kilu kha?i | ih? ih? ih? | t? | s?ma? | 1 | huv? iv? c?? | ?? ca | v?ca? huv? i | k?c c? ?a | v?k | ta ?a | ?r?otu ???ot? v?g v?k | c??a c?ka phaplata ?a | --- The explicit runs like this: ?ukro? | c? | ?ukra ho i | dvi? | ?ukra h? ? uv? | ?yu ?ya | e bhr? X? bhr?j? | tac ka ?ya kha | ma | 40 | pr?j?patya? g?yatra? pr?j?patya? g?yatra? | tat savitur pare?yo? | ca ?r? | bhargo devasya dhim?h?? ? dhiyo yo n?? pr?c?rha? bh? o v? | ?y?c ka?yi sa? ca?aka | ?ya ?yac | ov? hu? bh? | sa? ac ?ya | o v? | c? | 41 | --- Final rubric: ?ukl??i p??hasam?pta? | hari om | ity ?ra?ap??hasam?pta? | ?ubham astu ?r?gurubhyo nama? | --- Colophon (in Tamil language and script, added by a different hand): cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta? 1039 ?m ta k?rttika m?cam 5 til e?uti muki?catu --- The words cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta? recur also in the final rubric of the ark??ip??ha: s?ma? 14 | kha??a? 6 | ark??ip??ha sam?pta? | cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akurenatam | --- The title seems to be "?ra?akurantam (= ?ra?ya-grantha?) of Kesava?", but I can't find any text bearing such a title (or a similar one) in any catalogue nor in the internet. Any suggestion will be highly appreciated! Many thanks in advance, Marco Franceschini --- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 02:52:59 2013 From: dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 13 10:52:59 +0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1385175179.91786.YahooMailNeo@web193503.mail.sg3.yahoo.com> Looks like Saamavrdic Ara.nya gaana. Compare Jaiminiiya Samhitaa of the Saamaveda DB On Saturday, 23 November 2013 5:21 AM, Marco Franceschini wrote: Dear Collegues, I'm desperately trying to find out which text is contained in a?manuscript that I'm currently cataloguing. The manuscript (belonging to?the Cambridge UL collection)?is written in Grantha script. The text appears to be composed of four?p??has, called?ark??i,?vrat?ni,?dundu,??ukl??i: the?p??has are organized into sections called (from the larger to the smaller)?kha??a,?s?ma,?mantra?(this last always abbreviated as?ma.). The beginning of the text runs like this: om v?co v?te dve | huve v?c?m | t? | v?ca? v?ca? huve v?k | ?hya ?ya ta ?a | ???otu ?r?otu v?g v?k | hy??dya?ta ?a | samai tu samai tu v?g v?k | re | ramat?? ramat?? ram?t? au ho?v? | kilu kha?i | ih? ih? ih? | t? | s?ma? | 1 | huv? iv? c?? | ?? ca | v?ca? huv? i |?k?c c? ?a | v?k | ta ?a | ?r?otu ???ot? v?g v?k | c??a c?ka phaplata ?a | --- The explicit runs like this: ?ukro? | c? | ?ukra ho i | dvi? | ?ukra h? ? uv? |??yu??ya?| e bhr??X? bhr?j? | tac ka??ya?kha | ma | 40 |?pr?j?patya? g?yatra? pr?j?patya? g?yatra? | tat savitur pare?yo? |?ca ?r??| bhargo?devasya dhim?h?? ? dhiyo yo n???pr?c?rha??bh? o v? |??y?c ka?yi?sa? ca?aka |??ya??yac | ov??hu??bh? | sa? ac??ya?| o v? | c? | 41 | --- Final rubric: ?ukl??i p??hasam?pta? | hari om |?ity ?ra?ap??hasam?pta? | ?ubham astu ?r?gurubhyo nama? | --- Colophon (in Tamil language and script, added by a different hand): cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta? 1039??m?ta?k?rttika?m?cam?5?til?e?uti muki?catu --- The words?cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta??recur also in the final rubric of the?ark??ip??ha: s?ma? 14 | kha??a? 6 | ark??ip??ha sam?pta??|?cuppa?am kesava???ra?akurenatam | --- The title seems to be "?ra?akurantam (= ?ra?ya-grantha?) of Kesava?", but I can't find any text bearing such a title (or a similar one) in any catalogue nor in the internet. Any suggestion will be highly appreciated! Many thanks in advance, Marco Franceschini --- _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sat Nov 23 03:34:30 2013 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 13 22:34:30 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8D0B6140DB92002-8CC-5D344@webmail-m156.sysops.aol.com> Here is a possible translation of the first Tamil sentence: (The manuscript which) Cuppa?am Kesavan wrote and tied/bundled or completed in the year 1039 (of the Kollam era) on the fifth day of the month of K?rttikai. Is it possible muki?catu is really muti?catu? It could mean tied/bundled or completed. The name Cuppa?am is interesting linguistically. There is a place called Uppa?am near Colachel in Kanyakumari district. Uppa?am means salt pan. If the name Cuppa?am was still prevalent in the 19th century, this might be an instance of an existence of PDr. Cuppu in this compound in Tamil even up to 19th century! Normally Grantha will be Tamilized as kirantam. Here it seems to be kurantam The text seems to be dealing with ark??ip??ha of the 14th S?ma, 6th kha??a. Hope this helps Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Marco Franceschini To: Indology Sent: Fri, Nov 22, 2013 5:51 pm Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript Dear Collegues, I'm desperately trying to find out which text is contained in a manuscript that I'm currently cataloguing. The manuscript (belonging to the Cambridge UL collection) is written in Grantha script. The text appears to be composed of four p??has, called ark??i, vrat?ni, dundu, ?ukl??i: the p??has are organized into sections called (from the larger to the smaller) kha??a, s?ma, mantra (this last always abbreviated as ma.). The beginning of the text runs like this: om v?co v?te dve | huve v?c?m | t? | v?ca? v?ca? huve v?k | ?hya ?ya ta ?a | ???otu ?r?otu v?g v?k | hy? dya ta ?a | samai tu samai tu v?g v?k | re | ramat?? ramat?? ram?t? au ho v? | kilu kha?i | ih? ih? ih? | t? | s?ma? | 1 | huv? iv? c?? | ?? ca | v?ca? huv? i | k?c c? ?a | v?k | ta ?a | ?r?otu ???ot? v?g v?k | c??a c?ka phaplata ?a | --- The explicit runs like this: ?ukro? | c? | ?ukra ho i | dvi? | ?ukra h? ? uv? | ?yu ?ya | e bhr? X? bhr?j? | tac ka ?ya kha | ma | 40 | pr?j?patya? g?yatra? pr?j?patya? g?yatra? | tat savitur pare?yo? | ca ?r? | bhargo devasya dhim?h?? ? dhiyo yo n?? pr?c?rha? bh? o v? | ?y?c ka?yi sa? ca?aka | ?ya ?yac | ov? hu? bh? | sa? ac ?ya | o v? | c? | 41 | --- Final rubric: ?ukl??i p??hasam?pta? | hari om | ity ?ra?ap??hasam?pta? | ?ubham astu ?r?gurubhyo nama? | --- Colophon (in Tamil language and script, added by a different hand): cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta? 1039 ?m ta k?rttika m?cam 5 til e?uti muki?catu --- The words cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta? recur also in the final rubric of the ark??ip??ha: s?ma? 14 | kha??a? 6 | ark??ip??ha sam?pta? | cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akurenatam | --- The title seems to be "?ra?akurantam (= ?ra?ya-grantha?) of Kesava?", but I can't find any text bearing such a title (or a similar one) in any catalogue nor in the internet. Any suggestion will be highly appreciated! Many thanks in advance, Marco Franceschini --- _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sat Nov 23 03:39:57 2013 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 13 22:39:57 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript In-Reply-To: <8D0B6140DB92002-8CC-5D344@webmail-m156.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0B614D0A2C8A4-8CC-5D3A1@webmail-m156.sysops.aol.com> The word ?ra?am can also refer to Veda in general. Here is the Tamil Lexicon entry. *????? ?ra?am , n. cf. ?ra?yaka. 1. A portion of the V?da. See ????????. (??. ??. 8, 27, ???.) 2. V?da, by synecdoche; ?????. ??????????????? (??????. ?????. 2). So please do not look for any ?ra?yaka text here. It might be a a S?ma Vedic text. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa To: franceschini.marco ; indology Sent: Fri, Nov 22, 2013 9:34 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript Here is a possible translation of the first Tamil sentence: (The manuscript which) Cuppa?am Kesavan wrote and tied/bundled or completed in the year 1039 (of the Kollam era) on the fifth day of the month of K?rttikai. Is it possible muki?catu is really muti?catu? It could mean tied/bundled or completed. The name Cuppa?am is interesting linguistically. There is a place called Uppa?am near Colachel in Kanyakumari district. Uppa?am means salt pan. If the name Cuppa?am was still prevalent in the 19th century, this might be an instance of an existence of PDr. Cuppu in this compound in Tamil even up to 19th century! Normally Grantha will be Tamilized as kirantam. Here it seems to be kurantam The text seems to be dealing with ark??ip??ha of the 14th S?ma, 6th kha??a. Hope this helps Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Marco Franceschini To: Indology Sent: Fri, Nov 22, 2013 5:51 pm Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript Dear Collegues, I'm desperately trying to find out which text is contained in a manuscript that I'm currently cataloguing. The manuscript (belonging to the Cambridge UL collection) is written in Grantha script. The text appears to be composed of four p??has, called ark??i, vrat?ni, dundu, ?ukl??i: the p??has are organized into sections called (from the larger to the smaller) kha??a, s?ma, mantra (this last always abbreviated as ma.). The beginning of the text runs like this: om v?co v?te dve | huve v?c?m | t? | v?ca? v?ca? huve v?k | ?hya ?ya ta ?a | ???otu ?r?otu v?g v?k | hy? dya ta ?a | samai tu samai tu v?g v?k | re | ramat?? ramat?? ram?t? au ho v? | kilu kha?i | ih? ih? ih? | t? | s?ma? | 1 | huv? iv? c?? | ?? ca | v?ca? huv? i | k?c c? ?a | v?k | ta ?a | ?r?otu ???ot? v?g v?k | c??a c?ka phaplata ?a | --- The explicit runs like this: ?ukro? | c? | ?ukra ho i | dvi? | ?ukra h? ? uv? | ?yu ?ya | e bhr? X? bhr?j? | tac ka ?ya kha | ma | 40 | pr?j?patya? g?yatra? pr?j?patya? g?yatra? | tat savitur pare?yo? | ca ?r? | bhargo devasya dhim?h?? ? dhiyo yo n?? pr?c?rha? bh? o v? | ?y?c ka?yi sa? ca?aka | ?ya ?yac | ov? hu? bh? | sa? ac ?ya | o v? | c? | 41 | --- Final rubric: ?ukl??i p??hasam?pta? | hari om | ity ?ra?ap??hasam?pta? | ?ubham astu ?r?gurubhyo nama? | --- Colophon (in Tamil language and script, added by a different hand): cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta? 1039 ?m ta k?rttika m?cam 5 til e?uti muki?catu --- The words cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta? recur also in the final rubric of the ark??ip??ha: s?ma? 14 | kha??a? 6 | ark??ip??ha sam?pta? | cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akurenatam | --- The title seems to be "?ra?akurantam (= ?ra?ya-grantha?) of Kesava?", but I can't find any text bearing such a title (or a similar one) in any catalogue nor in the internet. Any suggestion will be highly appreciated! Many thanks in advance, Marco Franceschini --- _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asko.parpola at helsinki.fi Sat Nov 23 08:02:12 2013 From: asko.parpola at helsinki.fi (asko.parpola at helsinki.fi) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 13 10:02:12 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript In-Reply-To: <1385175179.91786.YahooMailNeo@web193503.mail.sg3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20131123100212.Horde.J6fStG38SMt1YoN8Au-OHw7.aparpola@webmail.helsinki.fi> I can confirm that this is a complete manuscript of the ?ra?yaka G?na of the Jaimin?ya S?maveda, from the beginning of the Vrata parvan to the end of the Pr?j?patya? g?yatram, which is the final s?man. In the beginning, read vrate instead of v?te. The seventh syllable t? is Jaimin?ya svara notation. The manuscript must be from the Kanyakumari District, where there still are Tamil Jaimin?yas, as Masato Fujii and I could find out in our search for Jaimin?ya manuscripts. They would naturally use the grantha script but also the Kollam era of Kerala. In grantha, u and cu are not too different, so probably you have to read Uppa?am mentioned by Palaniappan instead of Cuppa?am. Are there any other manuscripts of the Jaimin?ya S?maveda in Cambridge, and is there any information of the provenance of this manuscript? Who has presented it, and when? With best regards, Asko Parpola Quoting Dipak Bhattacharya : > Looks like Saamavrdic Ara.nya gaana. Compare Jaiminiiya Samhitaa of > the Saamaveda > DB > > > > > > On Saturday, 23 November 2013 5:21 AM, Marco Franceschini > wrote: > > Dear Collegues, > > I'm desperately trying to find out which text is contained in > a?manuscript that I'm currently cataloguing. > > The manuscript (belonging to?the Cambridge UL collection)?is written > in Grantha script. The text appears to be composed of four?p??has, > called?ark??i,?vrat?ni,?dundu,??ukl??i: the?p??has are organized > into sections called (from the larger to the > smaller)?kha??a,?s?ma,?mantra?(this last always abbreviated as?ma.). > > The beginning of the text runs like this: > > om v?co v?te dve | huve v?c?m | t? | v?ca? v?ca? huve v?k | ?hya ?ya > ta ?a | ???otu ?r?otu v?g v?k | hy??dya?ta ?a | samai tu samai tu > v?g v?k | re | ramat?? ramat?? ram?t? au ho?v? | kilu kha?i | ih? > ih? ih? | t? | s?ma? | 1 | huv? iv? c?? | ?? ca | v?ca? huv? i |?k?c > c? ?a | v?k | ta ?a | ?r?otu ???ot? v?g v?k | c??a c?ka phaplata ?a | > --- > > The explicit runs like this: > > ?ukro? | c? | ?ukra ho i | dvi? | ?ukra h? ? uv? |??yu??ya?| e > bhr??X? bhr?j? | tac ka??ya?kha | ma | 40 |?pr?j?patya? g?yatra? > pr?j?patya? g?yatra? | tat savitur pare?yo? |?ca ?r??| > bhargo?devasya dhim?h?? ? dhiyo yo n???pr?c?rha??bh? o v? |??y?c > ka?yi?sa? ca?aka |??ya??yac | ov??hu??bh? | sa? ac??ya?| o v? | c? | > 41 | > --- > > Final rubric: > > ?ukl??i p??hasam?pta? | hari om |?ity ?ra?ap??hasam?pta? | ?ubham > astu ?r?gurubhyo nama? | > --- > > Colophon (in Tamil language and script, added by a different hand): > > cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta? 1039??m?ta?k?rttika?m?cam?5?til?e?uti > muki?catu > --- > > The words?cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta??recur also in the final > rubric of the?ark??ip??ha: > > s?ma? 14 | kha??a? 6 | ark??ip??ha sam?pta??|?cuppa?am > kesava???ra?akurenatam | > --- > > The title seems to be "?ra?akurantam (= ?ra?ya-grantha?) of > Kesava?", but I can't find any text bearing such a title (or a > similar one) in any catalogue nor in the internet. Any suggestion > will be highly appreciated! > > Many thanks in advance, > > Marco Franceschini > --- > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info From dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 12:30:35 2013 From: dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 13 20:30:35 +0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript In-Reply-To: <20131123100212.Horde.J6fStG38SMt1YoN8Au-OHw7.aparpola@webmail.helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <1385209835.39983.YahooMailNeo@web193501.mail.sg3.yahoo.com> Dear Asok, Thanks for confirming. But I had checked before suggesting the Jaiminiya Saamagaanam. I had Vibhuutibhuushan Bhattacharya's Sampurnanand Sanskrit Iniv. edn with me Best Dipak On Saturday, 23 November 2013 1:32 PM, "asko.parpola at helsinki.fi" wrote: I can confirm that this is a complete manuscript of the ?ra?yaka G?na of the Jaimin?ya S?maveda, from the beginning of the Vrata parvan to the end of the Pr?j?patya? g?yatram, which is the final s?man. In the beginning, read vrate instead of v?te. The seventh syllable t? is Jaimin?ya svara notation. The manuscript must be from the Kanyakumari District, where there still are Tamil Jaimin?yas, as Masato Fujii and I could find out in our search for Jaimin?ya manuscripts. They would naturally use the grantha script but also the Kollam era of Kerala. In grantha, u and cu are not too different, so probably you have to read Uppa?am mentioned by Palaniappan instead of Cuppa?am. Are there any other manuscripts of the Jaimin?ya S?maveda in Cambridge, and is there any information of the provenance of this manuscript? Who has presented it, and when? With best regards, Asko Parpola Quoting Dipak Bhattacharya : > Looks like Saamavrdic Ara.nya gaana. Compare Jaiminiiya Samhitaa of? > the Saamaveda > DB > > > > > > On Saturday, 23 November 2013 5:21 AM, Marco Franceschini? > wrote: > > Dear Collegues, > > I'm desperately trying to find out which text is contained in? > a?manuscript that I'm currently cataloguing. > > The manuscript (belonging to?the Cambridge UL collection)?is written? > in Grantha script. The text appears to be composed of four?p??has,? > called?ark??i,?vrat?ni,?dundu,??ukl??i: the?p??has are organized? > into sections called (from the larger to the? > smaller)?kha??a,?s?ma,?mantra?(this last always abbreviated as?ma.). > > The beginning of the text runs like this: > > om v?co v?te dve | huve v?c?m | t? | v?ca? v?ca? huve v?k | ?hya ?ya? > ta ?a | ???otu ?r?otu v?g v?k | hy??dya?ta ?a | samai tu samai tu? > v?g v?k | re | ramat?? ramat?? ram?t? au ho?v? | kilu kha?i | ih?? > ih? ih? | t? | s?ma? | 1 | huv? iv? c?? | ?? ca | v?ca? huv? i |?k?c? > c? ?a | v?k | ta ?a | ?r?otu ???ot? v?g v?k | c??a c?ka phaplata ?a | > --- > > The explicit runs like this: > > ?ukro? | c? | ?ukra ho i | dvi? | ?ukra h? ? uv? |??yu??ya?| e? > bhr??X? bhr?j? | tac ka??ya?kha | ma | 40 |?pr?j?patya? g?yatra?? > pr?j?patya? g?yatra? | tat savitur pare?yo? |?ca ?r??|? > bhargo?devasya dhim?h?? ? dhiyo yo n???pr?c?rha??bh? o v? |??y?c? > ka?yi?sa? ca?aka |??ya??yac | ov??hu??bh? | sa? ac??ya?| o v? | c? |? > 41 | > --- > > Final rubric: > > ?ukl??i p??hasam?pta? | hari om |?ity ?ra?ap??hasam?pta? | ?ubham? > astu ?r?gurubhyo nama? | > --- > > Colophon (in Tamil language and script, added by a different hand): > > cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta? 1039??m?ta?k?rttika?m?cam?5?til?e?uti? > muki?catu > --- > > The words?cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta??recur also in the final? > rubric of the?ark??ip??ha: > > s?ma? 14 | kha??a? 6 | ark??ip??ha sam?pta??|?cuppa?am? > kesava???ra?akurenatam | > --- > > The title seems to be "?ra?akurantam (= ?ra?ya-grantha?) of? > Kesava?", but I can't find any text bearing such a title (or a? > similar one) in any catalogue nor in the internet. Any suggestion? > will be highly appreciated! > > Many thanks in advance, > > Marco Franceschini > --- > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com Sat Nov 23 13:19:01 2013 From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 13 08:19:01 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript In-Reply-To: <8D0B6140DB92002-8CC-5D344@webmail-m156.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Palaniappan, Thanks for the Tamil Translation. On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 10:34 PM, wrote: > Here is a possible translation of the first Tamil sentence: > > *(The manuscript which) Cuppa?am Kesavan wrote and tied/bundled or > completed in the year 1039 (of the Kollam era) on the fifth day of the > month of K?rttikai.* > > Is it possible muki?catu is really muti?catu? It could mean tied/bundled > or completed. > Isn't mu-k- 'to end, terminate' *[DEDR 4891 ]* is different from mu?i 'tie/bundle' *[DEDR 4921 ] **(*Also see* [DEDR 4922 ]). *May be, they are all related to **m?-y* 'to end'. In Telugu, it is not uncommon to find the phrase "mugi?cinadi" in such inscriptions. > The name Cuppa?am is interesting linguistically. There is a place called > Uppa?am near Colachel in Kanyakumari district. Uppa?am means salt pan. If > the name Cuppa?am was still prevalent in the 19th century, this might be an > instance of an existence of PDr. Cuppu in this compound in Tamil even up to > 19th century! > Yes. That would be very interesting. But as Parpola says, could it be simply the case of a Grantha u- mistaken for cu-? In Andhra Pradesh, there are several place names associated with uppV-, such as uppala-p??u (20 different locations), uppal?ru (Krishna and Cudappah Dist.) uppalam (Srikakulam Dist), pedauppalam (Visakhapatnam Dist) and Uppal (Hyderabad/Rangareddi Dist) but nothing that starts with cupp-/supp-. Regards, Suresh. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sat Nov 23 13:52:39 2013 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 13 08:52:39 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript Message-ID: <8D0B66A683C5C95-26B4-620E8@webmail-d224.sysops.aol.com> Suresh, You are right. The Tamil Lexicon gives the following entry. ?????-??? muki- , 4 v. intr. cf. ????-. [T. mugiyu, K. mugi.] To end, terminate; to be finished; ???????. ??????? ????? ??????? (????????. 681). So we can just take it as muki?catu 'finished'. Here it means 'completed'. While uppa?am is a common name, the important factor to consider is the use of Kollam era. If Uppa?am is the correct reading in the manuscript, there is also another Uppa?am near Srivaikuntam in Tuticorin district. See http://www.onefivenine.com/india/villages/Tuticorin/Srivaikundam/Uppalam . The region between Tuticorin and Tiruchendur is famous for salt pans. Kollam era is in use in Tirunelveli district also where traditional wedding invitations and horoscopes still use Kollam era. However, I do not know about the presence of Jaiminiyas in that area in the 19th century. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Suresh Kolichala To: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan Cc: franceschini.marco ; Indology Sent: Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:19 am Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript Dear Palaniappan, Thanks for the Tamil Translation. On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 10:34 PM, wrote: Here is a possible translation of the first Tamil sentence: (The manuscript which) Cuppa?am Kesavan wrote and tied/bundled or completed in the year 1039 (of the Kollam era) on the fifth day of the month of K?rttikai. Is it possible muki?catu is really muti?catu? It could mean tied/bundled or completed. Isn't mu-k- 'to end, terminate' [DEDR 4891] is different from mu?i 'tie/bundle' [DEDR 4921] (Also see [DEDR 4922]). May be, they are all related to *m?-y 'to end'. In Telugu, it is not uncommon to find the phrase "mugi?cinadi" in such inscriptions. The name Cuppa?am is interesting linguistically. There is a place called Uppa?am near Colachel in Kanyakumari district. Uppa?am means salt pan. If the name Cuppa?am was still prevalent in the 19th century, this might be an instance of an existence of PDr. Cuppu in this compound in Tamil even up to 19th century! Yes. That would be very interesting. But as Parpola says, could it be simply the case of a Grantha u- mistaken for cu-? In Andhra Pradesh, there are several place names associated with uppV-, such as uppala-p??u (20 different locations), uppal?ru (Krishna and Cudappah Dist.) uppalam (Srikakulam Dist), pedauppalam (Visakhapatnam Dist) and Uppal (Hyderabad/Rangareddi Dist) but nothing that starts with cupp-/supp-. Regards, Suresh. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sat Nov 23 13:56:41 2013 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 13 08:56:41 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript In-Reply-To: <8D0B66A683C5C95-26B4-620E8@webmail-d224.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8D0B66AF8B46CA6-26B4-62159@webmail-d224.sysops.aol.com> Sorry, when I said Kollam era was in use in Tirunelveli district, I meant the old undivided Tirunelveli district which included the present Tuticorin district. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: palaniappa To: suresh.kolichala Cc: indology Sent: Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:52 am Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript Suresh, You are right. The Tamil Lexicon gives the following entry. ?????-??? muki- , 4 v. intr. cf. ????-. [T. mugiyu, K. mugi.] To end, terminate; to be finished; ???????. ??????? ????? ??????? (????????. 681). So we can just take it as muki?catu 'finished'. Here it means 'completed'. While uppa?am is a common name, the important factor to consider is the use of Kollam era. If Uppa?am is the correct reading in the manuscript, there is also another Uppa?am near Srivaikuntam in Tuticorin district. See http://www.onefivenine.com/india/villages/Tuticorin/Srivaikundam/Uppalam . The region between Tuticorin and Tiruchendur is famous for salt pans. Kollam era is in use in Tirunelveli district also where traditional wedding invitations and horoscopes still use Kollam era. However, I do not know about the presence of Jaiminiyas in that area in the 19th century. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Suresh Kolichala To: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan Cc: franceschini.marco ; Indology Sent: Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:19 am Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript Dear Palaniappan, Thanks for the Tamil Translation. On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 10:34 PM, wrote: Here is a possible translation of the first Tamil sentence: (The manuscript which) Cuppa?am Kesavan wrote and tied/bundled or completed in the year 1039 (of the Kollam era) on the fifth day of the month of K?rttikai. Is it possible muki?catu is really muti?catu? It could mean tied/bundled or completed. Isn't mu-k- 'to end, terminate' [DEDR 4891] is different from mu?i 'tie/bundle' [DEDR 4921] (Also see [DEDR 4922]). May be, they are all related to *m?-y 'to end'. In Telugu, it is not uncommon to find the phrase "mugi?cinadi" in such inscriptions. The name Cuppa?am is interesting linguistically. There is a place called Uppa?am near Colachel in Kanyakumari district. Uppa?am means salt pan. If the name Cuppa?am was still prevalent in the 19th century, this might be an instance of an existence of PDr. Cuppu in this compound in Tamil even up to 19th century! Yes. That would be very interesting. But as Parpola says, could it be simply the case of a Grantha u- mistaken for cu-? In Andhra Pradesh, there are several place names associated with uppV-, such as uppala-p??u (20 different locations), uppal?ru (Krishna and Cudappah Dist.) uppalam (Srikakulam Dist), pedauppalam (Visakhapatnam Dist) and Uppal (Hyderabad/Rangareddi Dist) but nothing that starts with cupp-/supp-. Regards, Suresh. _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it Sat Nov 23 17:26:22 2013 From: franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it (Marco Franceschini) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 13 17:26:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript In-Reply-To: <20131123100212.Horde.J6fStG38SMt1YoN8Au-OHw7.aparpola@webmail.helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <829460DA-83F8-4784-AFF3-0BC06A0137CD@fastwebnet.it> Many thanks to all the colleagues who helped identifying the text! I've uploaded in DropBox some pictures of the manuscript, for those of you who are interested in having a look at it: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mxyeq3ruo82wbgt/MS-OR-02345.zip As you will see, the colophon (found in [66v], added by a second hand) is uninked: I hope the pictures are good enough to read it. Some remarks about the points that have been raised (but please remember that I'm far from being an expert of Tamil script, so you'd better check the readings yourself!): - cuppa?am / uppa?am: the word is found in the final colophon [66v2] and in the final rubric of the Ark??ip??ha [43v6]. In both places the word is written in Tamil script: therefore, if cuppa?am stands (erroneously) for uppa?am, the confusion did not arise because of the graphic similarity between cu and u, since Tamil cu/su and u are graphically quite different. - muki?catu / muti?catu: my transcription was wrong, the manuscript reads muku?catu [66v3] - kurantam / kirantam: I'm almost sure that the manuscript actually reads ?ra?akurantam in [66v2] and ?ra?akurentam in [43v6] - the word kesava[??] is scratched also on the upper wooden cover Coming to Asko Parpola's questions, this is the first manuscript of the Jaimin?ya S?maveda I find in the UL collection, but at present I've catalogued only one fourth of the 40 Grantha manuscripts that are part of the collection. I'll let you know in case I find more. As for the provenance of this manuscript, I think that the question will be soon (and more conveniently) answered by Camillo Formigatti, who knows far better than me about the history of the UL collection. Best wishes, Marco Franceschini --- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From caf57 at cam.ac.uk Sat Nov 23 18:48:58 2013 From: caf57 at cam.ac.uk (C.A. Formigatti) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 13 18:48:58 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I will try to answer the question about the provenance of the Grantha mss in the Cambridge Collections. We have very scanty information about the provenance of most of the South Indian mss in the Cambridge University Library. The ms catalogued by Marco Franceschini has been acquired by the Library between 1990 and 1991 from the book dealer Robert E. Stolper. It belongs to a batch of manuscripts which included also Malayalam mss (in Sanskrit and Malayalam language) as well as Shan mss, for a total of ca 130 mss. Unfortunately, there is no record of this acquisition in the University Library, and the only source at our disposal is a hand-list that only notes if a ms is "Shan" or "Malayalam" (sometimes a title is mentioned, but this is usually an educated guess; there is no mention of Grantha mss at all, and therefore Marco Franceschini is cataloguing and mapping them). I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm afraid this is the only piece of information we are able to provide about this part of the collections (the provenance of other parts of the collections is better documented). Camillo Formigatti Research Associate Sanskrit Manuscripts Project, Cambridge Faculty of Asian & Middle Eastern Studies University of Cambridge Sidgwick Avenue Cambridge CB3 9DA On 2013-11-23 12:30, indology-request at list.indology.info wrote: > Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to > indology at list.indology.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > indology-request at list.indology.info > > You can reach the person managing the list at > indology-owner at list.indology.info > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: unidentified Grantha manuscript (palaniappa at aol.com) > 2. Re: unidentified Grantha manuscript (asko.parpola at helsinki.fi) > 3. Re: unidentified Grantha manuscript (Dipak Bhattacharya) > > The word ?ra?am can also refer to Veda in general. Here is the > Tamil Lexicon entry. > > *????? ?RA?AM > , _n_. cf. _?ra?yaka_. 1. A portion of the V?da. See > ????????. (??. ??. 8, 27, ???.) 2. > V?da, by synecdoche; ?????. > ??????????????? (??????. > ?????. 2). > > So please do not look for any ?ra?yaka text here. It might be a a > S?ma Vedic text. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > -----Original Message----- > From: palaniappa > To: franceschini.marco ; indology > > Sent: Fri, Nov 22, 2013 9:34 pm > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript > > Here is a possible translation of the first Tamil sentence: > > _(The manuscript which) Cuppa?am Kesavan wrote and tied/bundled or > completed in the year 1039 (of the Kollam era) on the fifth day of the > month of K?rttikai._ > > Is it possible muki?catu is really muti?catu? It could mean > tied/bundled or completed. > > The name Cuppa?am is interesting linguistically. There is a place > called Uppa?am near Colachel in Kanyakumari district. Uppa?am > means salt pan. If the name Cuppa?am was still prevalent in the 19th > century, this might be an instance of an existence of PDr. Cuppu in > this compound in Tamil even up to 19th century! > > Normally Grantha will be Tamilized as kirantam. Here it seems to be > kurantam > > The text seems to be dealing with ark??ip??ha of the 14th S?ma, > 6th kha??a. > > Hope this helps > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marco Franceschini > To: Indology > Sent: Fri, Nov 22, 2013 5:51 pm > Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript > > Dear Collegues, > > I'm desperately trying to find out which text is contained in a > manuscript that I'm currently cataloguing. > > The manuscript (belonging to the Cambridge UL collection) is written > in Grantha script. The text appears to be composed of four > _p??ha_s, called _ark??i_, _vrat?ni_, _dundu_, _?ukl??i_: > the _p??ha_s are organized into sections called (from the larger to > the smaller) _kha??a_, _s?ma_, _mantra_ (this last always > abbreviated as _ma._). > > The beginning of the text runs like this: > > om v?co v?te dve | huve v?c?m | t? | v?ca? v?ca? huve v?k > | ?hya ?ya ta ?a | ???otu ?r?otu v?g v?k | hy? dya ta > ?a | samai tu samai tu v?g v?k | re | ramat?? ramat?? > ram?t? au ho v? | kilu kha?i | ih? ih? ih? | t? | s?ma? | 1 > | huv? iv? c?? | ?? ca | v?ca? huv? i | k?c c? ?a | > v?k | ta ?a | ?r?otu ???ot? v?g v?k | c??a c?ka > phaplata ?a | > --- > > The explicit runs like this: > > ?ukro? | c? | ?ukra ho i | dvi? | ?ukra h? ? uv? | ?yu > ?ya | e bhr? X? bhr?j? | tac ka ?ya kha | ma | 40 | > pr?j?patya? g?yatra? pr?j?patya? g?yatra? | tat savitur > pare?yo? | ca ?r? | bhargo devasya dhim?h?? ? dhiyo yo > n?? pr?c?rha? bh? o v? | ?y?c ka?yi sa? ca?aka | > ?ya ?yac | ov? hu? bh? | sa? ac ?ya | o v? | c? | 41 | > --- > > Final rubric: > > ?ukl??i p??hasam?pta? | hari om | ity > ?ra?ap??hasam?pta? | ?ubham astu ?r?gurubhyo nama? | > --- > > Colophon (in Tamil language and script, added by a different hand): > > cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta? 1039 ?m TA k?rttika m?cam 5 > til e?uti muki?catu > --- > > The words _cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta?_ recur also in the > final rubric of the _ark??ip??ha_: > > s?ma? 14 | kha??a? 6 | ark??ip??ha sam?pta? | > cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akurenatam | > --- > > The title seems to be "?ra?akurantam (= ?ra?ya-grantha?) of > Kesava?", but I can't find any text bearing such a title (or a > similar one) in any catalogue nor in the internet. Any suggestion will > be highly appreciated! > > Many thanks in advance, > > Marco Franceschini > --- > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info [1] > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://listinfo.indology.info > > List-Post: > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > From: asko.parpola at helsinki.fi > Precedence: list > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: indology at list.indology.info > References: > > > <1374634618.62517.YahooMailNeo at web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > > > > > > <1385175179.91786.YahooMailNeo at web193503.mail.sg3.yahoo.com> > In-Reply-To: > <1385175179.91786.YahooMailNeo at web193503.mail.sg3.yahoo.com> > Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 10:02:12 +0200 > Message-ID: > <20131123100212.Horde.J6fStG38SMt1YoN8Au-OHw7.aparpola at webmail.helsinki.fi> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript > Message: 2 > > > I can confirm that this is a complete manuscript of the ??ra???yaka > G?na > of the Jaimin??ya S?maveda, from the beginning of the Vrata parvan to > the end of the Pr?j?patya??? g?yatram, which is the final s?man. > In the beginning, read vrate instead of v???te. The seventh syllable > t?? > is Jaimin??ya svara notation. > > The manuscript must be from the Kanyakumari District, where there still > are Tamil Jaimin??yas, as Masato Fujii and I could find out in our > search > for Jaimin??ya manuscripts. They would naturally use the grantha script > but > also the Kollam era of Kerala. In grantha, u and cu are not too > different, > so probably you have to read Uppa???am mentioned by Palaniappan instead > of > Cuppa???am. > > Are there any other manuscripts of the Jaimin??ya S?maveda in > Cambridge, > and is there any information of the provenance of this manuscript? > Who has presented it, and when? > > > With best regards, Asko Parpola > > Quoting Dipak Bhattacharya : > >> Looks like Saamavrdic Ara.nya gaana. Compare Jaiminiiya Samhitaa of >> the Saamaveda >> DB >> >> >> >> >> >> On Saturday, 23 November 2013 5:21 AM, Marco Franceschini >> wrote: >> >> Dear Collegues, >> >> I'm desperately trying to find out which text is contained in >> a??manuscript that I'm currently cataloguing. >> >> The manuscript (belonging to??the Cambridge UL collection)??is written >> in Grantha script. The text appears to be composed of four??p????has, >> called??ark????i,??vrat?ni,??dundu,????ukl????i: the??p????has are >> organized >> into sections called (from the larger to the >> smaller)??kha?????a,??s?ma,??mantra??(this last always abbreviated >> as??ma.). >> >> The beginning of the text runs like this: >> >> om v?co v???te dve | huve v?c?m | t?? | v?ca??? v?ca??? huve v?k | >> ???hya ???ya >> ta ??a | ????????otu ??r???otu v?g v?k | hy????dya??ta ??a | samai tu >> samai tu >> v?g v?k | re | ramat???? ramat???? ram?t? au ho??v? | kilu kha??i | >> ih? >> ih? ih? | t?? | s?ma??? | 1 | huv? iv? c???? | ????? ca | v?ca??? huv? >> i |??k?c >> c? ??a | v?k | ta ??a | ??r???otu ????????ot?? v?g v?k | c???a c?ka >> phaplata ??a | >> --- >> >> The explicit runs like this: >> >> ??ukro??? | c? | ??ukra ho i | dvi??? | ??ukra h? ? uv? >> |?????yu?????ya??| e >> bhr???X? bhr?j? | tac ka?????ya??kha | ma | 40 |??pr?j?patya??? >> g?yatra??? >> pr?j?patya??? g?yatra??? | tat savitur pare???yo??? |??ca ??r????| >> bhargo??devasya dhim?h???? ?? dhiyo yo n??????pr?c?rha?????bh? o v? >> |?????y???c >> ka???yi??sa??? ca??aka |?????ya?????yac | ov???hu?????bh? | sa??? >> ac?????ya??| o v? | c? | >> 41 | >> --- >> >> Final rubric: >> >> ??ukl????i p????hasam?pta??? | hari om |??ity ?ra???ap????hasam?pta??? >> | ??ubham >> astu ??r??gurubhyo nama??? | >> --- >> >> Colophon (in Tamil language and script, added by a different hand): >> >> cuppa???am kesava??? ?ra???akuranta??? >> 1039???m??ta??k?rttika??m?cam??5??til??e???uti >> muki??catu >> --- >> >> The words??cuppa???am kesava??? ?ra???akuranta?????recur also in the >> final >> rubric of the??ark????ip????ha: >> >> s?ma??? 14 | kha?????a??? 6 | ark????ip????ha >> sam?pta?????|??cuppa???am >> kesava??????ra???akurenatam | >> --- >> >> The title seems to be "??ra???akurantam (= ??ra???ya-grantha?) of >> Kesava???", but I can't find any text bearing such a title (or a >> similar one) in any catalogue nor in the internet. Any suggestion >> will be highly appreciated! >> >> Many thanks in advance, >> >> Marco Franceschini >> --- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info > > > > > > > Dear Asok, > Thanks for confirming. But I had checked before suggesting the > Jaiminiya Saamagaanam. I had Vibhuutibhuushan Bhattacharya's > Sampurnanand Sanskrit Iniv. edn with me > Best > Dipak > > On Saturday, 23 November 2013 1:32 PM, "asko.parpola at helsinki.fi" > wrote: > > I can confirm that this is a complete manuscript of the ?ra?yaka > G?na > of the Jaimin?ya S?maveda, from the beginning of the Vrata parvan to > the end of the Pr?j?patya? g?yatram, which is the final s?man. > In the beginning, read vrate instead of v?te. The seventh syllable > t? > is Jaimin?ya svara notation. > > The manuscript must be from the Kanyakumari District, where there > still > are Tamil Jaimin?yas, as Masato Fujii and I could find out in our > search > for Jaimin?ya manuscripts. They would naturally use the grantha > script but > also the Kollam era of Kerala. In grantha, u and cu are not too > different, > so probably you have to read Uppa?am mentioned by Palaniappan > instead of > Cuppa?am. > > Are there any other manuscripts of the Jaimin?ya S?maveda in > Cambridge, > and is there any information of the provenance of this manuscript? > Who has presented it, and when? > > With best regards, Asko Parpola > > Quoting Dipak Bhattacharya : > >> Looks like Saamavrdic Ara.nya gaana. Compare Jaiminiiya Samhitaa of >> the Saamaveda >> DB >> >> >> >> >> >> On Saturday, 23 November 2013 5:21 AM, Marco Franceschini >> wrote: >> >> Dear Collegues, >> >> I'm desperately trying to find out which text is contained in >> a manuscript that I'm currently cataloguing. >> >> The manuscript (belonging to the Cambridge UL collection) is written > >> in Grantha script. The text appears to be composed of four > p??has, >> called ark??i, vrat?ni, dundu, ?ukl??i: the p??has are > organized >> into sections called (from the larger to the >> smaller) kha??a, s?ma, mantra (this last always abbreviated as > ma.). >> >> The beginning of the text runs like this: >> >> om v?co v?te dve | huve v?c?m | t? | v?ca? v?ca? huve > v?k | ?hya ?ya >> ta ?a | ???otu ?r?otu v?g v?k | hy? dya ta ?a | samai > tu samai tu >> v?g v?k | re | ramat?? ramat?? ram?t? au ho v? | kilu > kha?i | ih? >> ih? ih? | t? | s?ma? | 1 | huv? iv? c?? | ?? ca | > v?ca? huv? i | k?c >> c? ?a | v?k | ta ?a | ?r?otu ???ot? v?g v?k | c??a > c?ka phaplata ?a | >> --- >> >> The explicit runs like this: >> >> ?ukro? | c? | ?ukra ho i | dvi? | ?ukra h? ? uv? | ?yu > ?ya | e >> bhr? X? bhr?j? | tac ka ?ya kha | ma | 40 | pr?j?patya? > g?yatra? >> pr?j?patya? g?yatra? | tat savitur pare?yo? | ca ?r? | >> bhargo devasya dhim?h?? ? dhiyo yo n?? pr?c?rha? bh? o > v? | ?y?c >> ka?yi sa? ca?aka | ?ya ?yac | ov? hu? bh? | sa? ac > ?ya | o v? | c? | >> 41 | >> --- >> >> Final rubric: >> >> ?ukl??i p??hasam?pta? | hari om | ity > ?ra?ap??hasam?pta? | ?ubham >> astu ?r?gurubhyo nama? | >> --- >> >> Colophon (in Tamil language and script, added by a different hand): >> >> cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta? 1039 ?m ta k?rttika m?cam > 5 til e?uti >> muki?catu >> --- >> >> The words cuppa?am kesava? ?ra?akuranta? recur also in the > final >> rubric of the ark??ip??ha: >> >> s?ma? 14 | kha??a? 6 | ark??ip??ha sam?pta? | > cuppa?am >> kesava? ?ra?akurenatam | >> --- >> >> The title seems to be "?ra?akurantam (= ?ra?ya-grantha?) of >> Kesava?", but I can't find any text bearing such a title (or a >> similar one) in any catalogue nor in the internet. Any suggestion >> will be highly appreciated! >> >> Many thanks in advance, >> >> Marco Franceschini >> --- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info [1] > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info [1] > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://listinfo.indology.info/ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info From palaniappa at aol.com Sat Nov 23 19:01:40 2013 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 13 14:01:40 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript Message-ID: <8D0B69593A379C5-C0C-61258@webmail-va015.sysops.aol.com> Thanks for the pictures. There is no doubt. It is cuppa?am! I think 'ke?ava?' scratched on the top is in Malayalam script. You are also right about muku?catu and kurentam/kurantam. This alternation suggests a location in Kanyakumari district was more likely. These variations do not affect our earlier understanding of the colophon. If cuppa?am indeed stood for the place name uppa?am, it is like finding a PDr fossil in the 19th century confirming the PDr reconstruction! We may have to look for more contextual evidence to confirm that cuppa?am indeed stood for the place name uppa?am. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Marco Franceschini To: Indology Sent: Sat, Nov 23, 2013 11:26 am Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript Many thanks to all the colleagues who helped identifying the text! I've uploaded in DropBox some pictures of the manuscript, for those of you who are interested in having a look at it: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mxyeq3ruo82wbgt/MS-OR-02345.zip As you will see, the colophon (found in [66v], added by a second hand) is uninked: I hope the pictures are good enough to read it. Some remarks about the points that have been raised (but please remember that I'm far from being an expert of Tamil script, so you'd better check the readings yourself!): - cuppa?am / uppa?am: the word is found in the final colophon [66v2] and in the final rubric of the Ark??ip??ha [43v6]. In both places the word is written in Tamil script: therefore, if cuppa?am stands (erroneously) for uppa?am, the confusion did not arise because of the graphic similarity between cu and u, since Tamil cu/su and u are graphically quite different. - muki?catu / muti?catu: my transcription was wrong, the manuscript reads muku?catu [66v3] - kurantam / kirantam: I'm almost sure that the manuscript actually reads ?ra?akurantam in [66v2] and ?ra?akurentam in [43v6] - the word kesava[??] is scratched also on the upper wooden cover Coming to Asko Parpola's questions, this is the first manuscript of the Jaimin?ya S?maveda I find in the UL collection, but at present I've catalogued only one fourth of the 40 Grantha manuscripts that are part of the collection. I'll let you know in case I find more. As for the provenance of this manuscript, I think that the question will be soon (and more conveniently) answered by Camillo Formigatti, who knows far better than me about the history of the UL collection. Best wishes, Marco Franceschini --- _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From caf57 at cam.ac.uk Sat Nov 23 19:03:12 2013 From: caf57 at cam.ac.uk (C.A. Formigatti) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 13 19:03:12 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript (C.A. Formigatti) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <30536ed9a453386416924fd7f75122cf@cam.ac.uk> P.S. We have only two manuscripts of the S?maveda in the CUL collections: a Devan?gar? paper ms acquired By C. Bendall from Bhagvan D?s Kevaldas at Bombay in 1885, and a palm-leaf Devan?gar? ms of which I do not remember the provenance at the moment (I will check again). They still have to be catalogued, though. Camillo Formigatti Research Associate Sanskrit Manuscripts Project, Cambridge Faculty of Asian & Middle Eastern Studies University of Cambridge Sidgwick Avenue Cambridge CB3 9DA On 2013-11-23 18:49, indology-request at list.indology.info wrote: > Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to > indology at list.indology.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > indology-request at list.indology.info > > You can reach the person managing the list at > indology-owner at list.indology.info > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: unidentified Grantha manuscript (Marco Franceschini) > 2. Re: unidentified Grantha manuscript (C.A. Formigatti) > > Many thanks to all the colleagues who helped identifying the text! > > I've uploaded in DropBox some pictures of the manuscript, for those of > you who are interested in having a look at it: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/mxyeq3ruo82wbgt/MS-OR-02345.zip [1] > > As you will see, the colophon (found in [66v], added by a second hand) > is uninked: I hope the pictures are good enough to read it. > > Some remarks about the points that have been raised (but please > remember that I'm far from being an expert of Tamil script, so you'd > better check the readings yourself!): > > - _cuppa?am_ / _uppa?am_: the word is found in the final colophon > [66v2] and in the final rubric of the _Ark??ip??ha_ [43v6]. In > both places the word is written in Tamil script: therefore, if > _cuppa?am_ stands (erroneously) for _uppa?am_, the confusion did > not arise because of the graphic similarity between _cu_ and _u_, > since Tamil _cu_/_su_ and _u_ are graphically quite different. > > - _muki?catu_ / _muti?catu_: my transcription was wrong, the > manuscript reads _muku?catu_ [66v3] > > - _kurantam_ / _kirantam_: I'm almost sure that the manuscript > actually reads _?ra?akurantam_ in [66v2] and _?ra?akurentam_ in > [43v6] > > - the word _kesava[??]_ is scratched also on the upper wooden cover > > Coming to Asko Parpola's questions, this is the first manuscript of > the Jaimin?ya S?maveda I find in the UL collection, but at present > I've catalogued only one fourth of the 40 Grantha manuscripts that are > part of the collection. I'll let you know in case I find more. > As for the provenance of this manuscript, I think that the question > will be soon (and more conveniently) answered by Camillo Formigatti, > who knows far better than me about the history of the UL collection. > > Best wishes, > > Marco Franceschini > --- > > Links: > ------ > [1] https://www.dropbox.com/s/mxyeq3ruo82wbgt/MS-OR-02345.zip > > List-Post: > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > From: "C.A. Formigatti" > Precedence: list > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: indology at list.indology.info > References: > > In-Reply-To: > > Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 18:48:58 +0000 > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; > format=flowed > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript > Message: 2 > > Dear Colleagues, > > I will try to answer the question about the provenance of the > Grantha=20 > mss in the Cambridge Collections. We have very scanty information > about=20 > the provenance of most of the South Indian mss in the Cambridge=20 > University Library. The ms catalogued by Marco Franceschini has > been=20 > acquired by the Library between 1990 and 1991 from the book dealer=20 > Robert E. Stolper. It belongs to a batch of manuscripts which > included=20 > also Malayalam mss (in Sanskrit and Malayalam language) as well as > Shan=20 > mss, for a total of ca 130 mss. Unfortunately, there is no record of=20 > this acquisition in the University Library, and the only source at > our=20 > disposal is a hand-list that only notes if a ms is "Shan" or > "Malayalam"=20 > (sometimes a title is mentioned, but this is usually an educated > guess;=20 > there is no mention of Grantha mss at all, and therefore Marco=20 > Franceschini is cataloguing and mapping them). > > I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm afraid this is the only piece > of=20 > information we are able to provide about this part of the > collections=20 > (the provenance of other parts of the collections is better > documented). > > Camillo Formigatti > > Research Associate > Sanskrit Manuscripts Project, Cambridge > Faculty of Asian & Middle Eastern Studies > University of Cambridge > Sidgwick Avenue > Cambridge CB3 9DA > > On 2013-11-23 12:30, indology-request at list.indology.info wrote: >> Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to >> indology at list.indology.info >> =20 >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info >> =20 >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> indology-request at list.indology.info >> =20 >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> =20 >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." >> =20 >> Today's Topics: >> =20 >> 1. Re: unidentified Grantha manuscript (palaniappa at aol.com) >> 2. Re: unidentified Grantha manuscript (asko.parpola at helsinki.fi) >> 3. Re: unidentified Grantha manuscript (Dipak Bhattacharya) >> =20 >> The word =C4=81ra=E1=B9=87am can also refer to Veda in general. Here >> is t= > he >> Tamil Lexicon entry. >> =20 >> *=E0=AE=86=E0=AE=B0=E0=AE=A3=E0=AE=AE=E0=AF=8D =C4=80RA=E1=B9=86AM >> , _n_. cf. _=C4=81ra=E1=B9=87yaka_. 1. A portion of the V=C4=93da. See >> =E0=AE=86=E0=AE=B0=E0=AE=A3=E0=AF=8D=E0=AE=AF=E0=AE=95=E0=AE=AE=E0=AF=8D= > =2E (=E0=AE=9A=E0=AE=BF. =E0=AE=9A=E0=AE=BF. 8, 27, > =E0=AE=AE=E0=AE=B1=E0= > =AF=88.) 2. >> V=C4=93da, by synecdoche; >> =E0=AE=B5=E0=AF=87=E0=AE=A4=E0=AE=AE=E0=AF=8D= > =2E >> =E0=AE=86=E0=AE=B0=E0=AE=A3=E0=AE=A4=E0=AF=8D=E0=AE=A4=E0=AF=81=E0=AE=B1= > =E0=AF=88=E0=AE=AF=E0=AF=81=E0=AE=B3=E0=AE=BE=E0=AE=AF=E0=AF=8D > (=E0=AE=95= > =E0=AE=AE=E0=AF=8D=E0=AE=AA=E0=AE=B0=E0=AE=BE. >> =E0=AE=A4=E0=AE=BE=E0=AE=9F=E0=AE=95=E0=AF=88. 2). >> =20 >> So please do not look for any =C4=80ra=E1=B9=87yaka text here. It >> might b= > e a a >> S=C4=81ma Vedic text. >> =20 >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> =20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: palaniappa >> To: franceschini.marco ; indology >> >> Sent: Fri, Nov 22, 2013 9:34 pm >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript >> =20 >> Here is a possible translation of the first Tamil sentence: >> =20 >> _(The manuscript which) Cuppa=E1=B8=B7am Kesavan wrote and >> tied/bundled o= > r >> completed in the year 1039 (of the Kollam era) on the fifth day of the >> month of K=C4=81rttikai._ >> =20 >> Is it possible muki=C3=B1catu is really muti=C3=B1catu? It could mean >> tied/bundled or completed. >> =20 >> The name Cuppa=E1=B8=B7am is interesting linguistically. There is a >> place >> called Uppa=E1=B8=B7am near Colachel in Kanyakumari district. >> Uppa=E1=B8= > =B7am >> means salt pan. If the name Cuppa=E1=B8=B7am was still prevalent in >> the 1= > 9th >> century, this might be an instance of an existence of PDr. Cuppu in >> this compound in Tamil even up to 19th century! >> =20 >> Normally Grantha will be Tamilized as kirantam. Here it seems to be >> kurantam >> =20 >> The text seems to be dealing with >> ark=C4=81=E1=B9=87ip=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha o= > f the 14th S=C4=81ma, >> 6th kha=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da. >> =20 >> Hope this helps >> =20 >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> =20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Marco Franceschini >> To: Indology >> Sent: Fri, Nov 22, 2013 5:51 pm >> Subject: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript >> =20 >> Dear Collegues, >> =20 >> I'm desperately trying to find out which text is contained in a >> manuscript that I'm currently cataloguing. >> =20 >> The manuscript (belonging to the Cambridge UL collection) is written >> in Grantha script. The text appears to be composed of four >> _p=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha_s, called _ark=C4=81=E1=B9=87i_, _vrat=C4=81ni_, >> _dun= > du_, _=C5=9Bukl=C4=81=E1=B9=87i_: >> the _p=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha_s are organized into sections called (from the >> la= > rger to >> the smaller) _kha=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_, _s=C4=81ma_, _mantra_ (this >> last a= > lways >> abbreviated as _ma._). >> =20 >> The beginning of the text runs like this: >> =20 >> om v=C4=81co v=E1=B9=9Bte dve | huve v=C4=81c=C4=81m | t=C4=AB | >> v=C4=81c= > a=E1=B9=83 v=C4=81ca=E1=B9=83 huve v=C4=81k >> | =E1=B9=ADhya =E1=B9=ADya ta =C5=9Ba | =C5=9B=E1=B9=9B=E1=B9=87otu >> =C5= > =9Br=E1=B9=87otu v=C4=81g v=C4=81k | hy=C4=AB dya ta >> =C5=9Ba | samai tu samai tu v=C4=81g v=C4=81k | re | >> ramat=C4=81=E1=B9=83= > ramat=C4=81=E1=B9=83 >> ram=C4=81t=C4=81 au ho v=C4=81 | kilu kha=C5=9Bi | ih=C4=81 ih=C4=81 >> ih= > =C4=81 | t=C5=AB | s=C4=81ma=E1=B9=83 | 1 >> | huv=C4=81 iv=C4=81 c=C4=81=E1=B9=83 | =E1=B9=AD=C4=AB ca | >> v=C4=81ca=E1= > =B9=83 huv=C4=81 i | k=C4=81c c=C4=81 =C5=9Ba | >> v=C4=81k | ta =C5=9Ba | =C5=9Br=E1=B9=87otu >> =C5=9B=E1=B9=9B=E1=B9=87ot=C5= > =AB v=C4=81g v=C4=81k | c=C4=81=C5=9Ba c=C4=81ka >> phaplata =C5=9Ba | >> --- >> =20 >> The explicit runs like this: >> =20 >> =C5=9Bukro=E1=B9=83 | c=C4=81 | =C5=9Bukra ho i | dvi=E1=B8=A5 | >> =C5=9Buk= > ra h=C4=81 =C4=81 uv=C4=81 | =E1=B9=ADyu >> =E1=B9=ADya | e bhr=C4=81 X=C4=81 bhr=C4=81j=C4=81 | tac ka >> =E1=B9=ADya k= > ha | ma | 40 | >> pr=C4=81j=C4=81patya=E1=B9=83 g=C4=81yatra=E1=B9=83 >> pr=C4=81j=C4=81patya= > =E1=B9=83 g=C4=81yatra=E1=B9=83 | tat savitur >> pare=E1=B9=87yo=E1=B9=83 | ca =C5=9Br=C5=AB | bhargo devasya >> dhim=C4=81h= > =C4=81=E1=B9=83 =C4=AB dhiyo yo >> n=C4=81=E1=B8=A5 pr=C4=81c=C4=81rha=E1=B9=83 bh=C4=81 o v=C4=81 | >> =E1=B9= > =ADy=E1=B9=9Bc ka=E1=B9=ADyi sa=E1=B9=AD ca=C5=9Baka | >> =E1=B9=ADya =E1=B9=ADyac | ov=C4=81 hu=E1=B9=83 bh=C4=81 | sa=E1=B9=AD >> ac= > =E1=B9=ADya | o v=C4=81 | c=C4=81 | 41 | >> --- >> =20 >> Final rubric: >> =20 >> =C5=9Bukl=C4=81=E1=B9=87i p=C4=81=E1=B9=ADhasam=C4=81pta=E1=B8=A5 | >> hari = > om | ity >> =C4=81ra=E1=B9=87ap=C4=81=E1=B9=ADhasam=C4=81pta=E1=B8=A5 | >> =C5=9Bubham a= > stu =C5=9Br=C4=ABgurubhyo nama=E1=B8=A5 | >> --- >> =20 >> Colophon (in Tamil language and script, added by a different hand): >> =20 >> cuppa=E1=B8=B7am kesava=E1=B9=89 =C4=81ra=E1=B9=87akuranta=E1=B9=83 >> 1039 = > =C4=81m TA k=C4=81rttika m=C4=81cam 5 >> til e=E1=B8=BButi muki=C3=B1catu >> --- >> =20 >> The words _cuppa=E1=B8=B7am kesava=E1=B9=89 >> =C4=81ra=E1=B9=87akuranta=E1= > =B9=83_ recur also in the >> final rubric of the _ark=C4=81=E1=B9=87ip=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha_: >> =20 >> s=C4=81ma=E1=B9=83 14 | kha=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da=E1=B9=83 6 | >> ark=C4=81=E1= > =B9=87ip=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha sam=C4=81pta=E1=B8=A5 | >> cuppa=E1=B8=B7am kesava=E1=B9=89 =C4=81ra=E1=B9=87akurenatam | >> --- >> =20 >> The title seems to be "=C4=80ra=E1=B9=87akurantam (=3D >> =C4=80ra=E1=B9=87y= > a-grantha?) of >> Kesava=E1=B9=89", but I can't find any text bearing such a title (or a >> similar one) in any catalogue nor in the internet. Any suggestion will >> be highly appreciated! >> =20 >> Many thanks in advance, >> =20 >> Marco Franceschini >> --- >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info [1] >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://listinfo.indology.info >> =20 >> List-Post: >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> From: asko.parpola at helsinki.fi >> Precedence: list >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> To: indology at list.indology.info >> References:=20 >> >> > >> <1374634618.62517.YahooMailNeo at web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >> >> >> >> >> >> <1385175179.91786.YahooMailNeo at web193503.mail.sg3.yahoo.com> >> In-Reply-To:=20 >> <1385175179.91786.YahooMailNeo at web193503.mail.sg3.yahoo.com> >> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 10:02:12 +0200 >> Message-ID: >> <20131123100212.Horde.J6fStG38SMt1YoN8Au-OHw7.aparpola at webmail.helsinki= > =2Efi> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed; >> DelSp=3DYes >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] unidentified Grantha manuscript >> Message: 2 >> =20 >> =20 >> I can confirm that this is a complete manuscript of the >> =C3=84=E2=82=ACra= > =C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=A1yaka=20 >> G=C3=84na >> of the Jaimin=C3=84=C2=ABya S=C3=84maveda, from the beginning of the >> Vrat= > a parvan to >> the end of the Pr=C3=84j=C3=84patya=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 g=C3=84yatram, >> whic= > h is the final s=C3=84man. >> In the beginning, read vrate instead of v=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=BAte. The >> sev= > enth syllable=20 >> t=C3=84=C2=AB >> is Jaimin=C3=84=C2=ABya svara notation. >> =20 >> The manuscript must be from the Kanyakumari District, where there >> still >> are Tamil Jaimin=C3=84=C2=AByas, as Masato Fujii and I could find out >> in = > our=20 >> search >> for Jaimin=C3=84=C2=ABya manuscripts. They would naturally use the >> granth= > a script=20 >> but >> also the Kollam era of Kerala. In grantha, u and cu are not too=20 >> different, >> so probably you have to read Uppa=C3=A1=C2=B8=C2=B7am mentioned by >> Palani= > appan instead=20 >> of >> Cuppa=C3=A1=C2=B8=C2=B7am. >> =20 >> Are there any other manuscripts of the Jaimin=C3=84=C2=ABya >> S=C3=84maveda= > in=20 >> Cambridge, >> and is there any information of the provenance of this manuscript? >> Who has presented it, and when? >> =20 >> =20 >> With best regards, Asko Parpola >> =20 >> Quoting Dipak Bhattacharya : >> =20 >>> Looks like Saamavrdic Ara.nya gaana. Compare Jaiminiiya Samhitaa of >>> the Saamaveda >>> DB >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> On Saturday, 23 November 2013 5:21 AM, Marco Franceschini >>> wrote: >>> =20 >>> Dear Collegues, >>> =20 >>> I'm desperately trying to find out which text is contained in >>> a=C3=82=C2=A0manuscript that I'm currently cataloguing. >>> =20 >>> The manuscript (belonging to=C3=82=C2=A0the Cambridge UL >>> collection)=C3= > =82=C2=A0is written >>> in Grantha script. The text appears to be composed of >>> four=C3=82=C2=A0p= > =C3=84=C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=ADhas, >>> called=C3=82=C2=A0ark=C3=84=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=A1i,=C3=82=C2=A0vrat=C3=84= > ni,=C3=82=C2=A0dundu,=C3=82=C2=A0=C3=85=E2=80=BAukl=C3=84=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80= > =A1i: the=C3=82=C2=A0p=C3=84=C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=ADhas are=20 >>> organized >>> into sections called (from the larger to the >>> smaller)=C3=82=C2=A0kha=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=A1=C3=A1=C2=B8a,=C3=82=C2=A0s= > =C3=84ma,=C3=82=C2=A0mantra=C3=82=C2=A0(this last always abbreviated=20 >>> as=C3=82=C2=A0ma.). >>> =20 >>> The beginning of the text runs like this: >>> =20 >>> om v=C3=84co v=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=BAte dve | huve v=C3=84c=C3=84m | >>> t=C3= > =84=C2=AB | v=C3=84ca=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 v=C3=84ca=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 > huve v= > =C3=84k |=20 >>> =C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=ADhya =C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=ADya >>> ta =C3=85=E2=80=BAa | >>> =C3=85=E2=80=BA=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=BA=C3=A1=C2=B9= > =E2=80=A1otu =C3=85=E2=80=BAr=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=A1otu v=C3=84g v=C3=84k > | h= > y=C3=84=C2=AB=C3=82=C2=A0dya=C3=82=C2=A0ta =C3=85=E2=80=BAa | samai > tu=20 >>> samai tu >>> v=C3=84g v=C3=84k | re | ramat=C3=84=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 >>> ramat=C3=84=C3=A1= > =C2=B9=C6=92 ram=C3=84t=C3=84 au ho=C3=82=C2=A0v=C3=84 | kilu > kha=C3=85=E2= > =80=BAi |=20 >>> ih=C3=84 >>> ih=C3=84 ih=C3=84 | t=C3=85=C2=AB | s=C3=84ma=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 | 1 | >>> hu= > v=C3=84 iv=C3=84 c=C3=84=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 | > =C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=AD=C3=84=C2=AB= > ca | v=C3=84ca=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 huv=C3=84=20 >>> i |=C3=82=C2=A0k=C3=84c >>> c=C3=84 =C3=85=E2=80=BAa | v=C3=84k | ta =C3=85=E2=80=BAa | >>> =C3=85=E2=80= > =BAr=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=A1otu > =C3=85=E2=80=BA=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=BA=C3=A1=C2= > =B9=E2=80=A1ot=C3=85=C2=AB v=C3=84g v=C3=84k | c=C3=84=C3=85=E2=80=BAa > c=C3= > =84ka=20 >>> phaplata =C3=85=E2=80=BAa | >>> --- >>> =20 >>> The explicit runs like this: >>> =20 >>> =C3=85=E2=80=BAukro=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 | c=C3=84 | =C3=85=E2=80=BAukra >>> ho= > i | dvi=C3=A1=C2=B8=C2=A5 | =C3=85=E2=80=BAukra h=C3=84 =C3=84 > uv=C3=84=20 >>> |=C3=82=C2=A0=C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=ADyu=C3=82=C2=A0=C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=ADya=C3=82= > =C2=A0| e >>> bhr=C3=84=C3=82=C2=A0X=C3=84 bhr=C3=84j=C3=84 | tac >>> ka=C3=82=C2=A0=C3=A1= > =C2=B9=C2=ADya=C3=82=C2=A0kha | ma | 40 > |=C3=82=C2=A0pr=C3=84j=C3=84patya= > =C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92=20 >>> g=C3=84yatra=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 >>> pr=C3=84j=C3=84patya=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 g=C3=84yatra=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 >>> | = > tat savitur pare=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=A1yo=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 > |=C3=82=C2=A0ca = > =C3=85=E2=80=BAr=C3=85=C2=AB=C3=82=C2=A0| >>> bhargo=C3=82=C2=A0devasya dhim=C3=84h=C3=84=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 >>> =C3=84=C2= > =AB dhiyo yo > n=C3=84=C3=A1=C2=B8=C2=A5=C3=82=C2=A0pr=C3=84c=C3=84rha=C3=A1= > =C2=B9=C6=92=C3=82=C2=A0bh=C3=84 o v=C3=84=20 >>> |=C3=82=C2=A0=C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=ADy=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=BAc >>> ka=C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=ADyi=C3=82=C2=A0sa=C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=AD >>> ca=C3=85=E2=80=BA= > aka |=C3=82=C2=A0=C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=ADya=C3=82=C2=A0=C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=ADyac > | ov= > =C3=84=C3=82=C2=A0hu=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92=C3=82=C2=A0bh=C3=84 | > sa=C3=A1=C2=B9= > =C2=AD=20 >>> ac=C3=82=C2=A0=C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=ADya=C3=82=C2=A0| o v=C3=84 | c=C3=84 | >>> 41 | >>> --- >>> =20 >>> Final rubric: >>> =20 >>> =C3=85=E2=80=BAukl=C3=84=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=A1i >>> p=C3=84=C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=AD= > hasam=C3=84pta=C3=A1=C2=B8=C2=A5 | hari om |=C3=82=C2=A0ity > =C3=84ra=C3=A1= > =C2=B9=E2=80=A1ap=C3=84=C3=A1=C2=B9=C2=ADhasam=C3=84pta=C3=A1=C2=B8=C2=A5= > =20 >>> | =C3=85=E2=80=BAubham >>> astu =C3=85=E2=80=BAr=C3=84=C2=ABgurubhyo nama=C3=A1=C2=B8=C2=A5 | >>> --- >>> =20 >>> Colophon (in Tamil language and script, added by a different hand): >>> =20 >>> cuppa=C3=A1=C2=B8=C2=B7am kesava=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=B0 >>> =C3=84ra=C3=A1=C2= > =B9=E2=80=A1akuranta=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92=20 >>> 1039=C3=82=C2=A0=C3=84m=C3=82=C2=A0ta=C3=82=C2=A0k=C3=84rttika=C3=82=C2= > =A0m=C3=84cam=C3=82=C2=A05=C3=82=C2=A0til=C3=82=C2=A0e=C3=A1=C2=B8=C2=BButi >>> muki=C3=83=C2=B1catu >>> --- >>> =20 >>> The words=C3=82=C2=A0cuppa=C3=A1=C2=B8=C2=B7am >>> kesava=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80= > =B0 > =C3=84ra=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=A1akuranta=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92=C3=82=C2=A0recu= > r also in the=20 >>> final >>> rubric of >>> the=C3=82=C2=A0ark=C3=84=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=A1ip=C3=84=C3=A1=C2= > =B9=C2=ADha: >>> =20 >>> s=C3=84ma=C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 14 | >>> kha=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=A1=C3=A1=C2=B8a= > =C3=A1=C2=B9=C6=92 6 | > ark=C3=84=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=A1ip=C3=84=C3=A1=C2=B9= > =C2=ADha=20 >>> sam=C3=84pta=C3=A1=C2=B8=C2=A5=C3=82=C2=A0|=C3=82=C2=A0cuppa=C3=A1=C2=B8= > =C2=B7am >>> kesava=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=B0=C3=82=C2=A0=C3=84ra=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=A1akur= > enatam | >>> --- >>> =20 >>> The title seems to be >>> "=C3=84=E2=82=ACra=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=A1akurantam (= > =3D =C3=84=E2=82=ACra=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=A1ya-grantha?) of >>> Kesava=C3=A1=C2=B9=E2=80=B0", but I can't find any text bearing such >>> a t= > itle (or a >>> similar one) in any catalogue nor in the internet. Any suggestion >>> will be highly appreciated! >>> =20 >>> Many thanks in advance, >>> =20 >>> Marco Franceschini >>> --- >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Dear Asok, >> Thanks for confirming. But I had checked before suggesting the >> Jaiminiya Saamagaanam. I had Vibhuutibhuushan Bhattacharya's >> Sampurnanand Sanskrit Iniv. edn with me >> Best >> Dipak >> =20 >> On Saturday, 23 November 2013 1:32 PM, "asko.parpola at helsinki.fi" >> wrote: >> =20 >> I can confirm that this is a complete manuscript of the >> =C4=80ra=E1=B9=87= > yaka >> G=C4=81na >> of the Jaimin=C4=ABya S=C4=81maveda, from the beginning of the Vrata >> parv= > an to >> the end of the Pr=C4=81j=C4=81patya=E1=B9=83 g=C4=81yatram, which is >> the = > final s=C4=81man. >> In the beginning, read vrate instead of v=E1=B9=9Bte. The seventh >> syllabl= > e >> t=C4=AB >> is Jaimin=C4=ABya svara notation. >> =20 >> The manuscript must be from the Kanyakumari District, where there >> still >> are Tamil Jaimin=C4=AByas, as Masato Fujii and I could find out in our >> search >> for Jaimin=C4=ABya manuscripts. They would naturally use the grantha >> script but >> also the Kollam era of Kerala. In grantha, u and cu are not too >> different, >> so probably you have to read Uppa=E1=B8=B7am mentioned by Palaniappan >> instead of >> Cuppa=E1=B8=B7am. >> =20 >> Are there any other manuscripts of the Jaimin=C4=ABya S=C4=81maveda in >> Cambridge, >> and is there any information of the provenance of this manuscript? >> Who has presented it, and when? >> =20 >> With best regards, Asko Parpola >> =20 >> Quoting Dipak Bhattacharya : >> =20 >>> Looks like Saamavrdic Ara.nya gaana. Compare Jaiminiiya Samhitaa of >>> the Saamaveda >>> DB >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> On Saturday, 23 November 2013 5:21 AM, Marco Franceschini >>> wrote: >>> =20 >>> Dear Collegues, >>> =20 >>> I'm desperately trying to find out which text is contained in >>> a manuscript that I'm currently cataloguing. >>> =20 >>> The manuscript (belonging to the Cambridge UL collection) is written >> =20 >>> in Grantha script. The text appears to be composed of four >> p=C4=81=E1=B9=ADhas, >>> called ark=C4=81=E1=B9=87i, vrat=C4=81ni, dundu, >>> =C5=9Bukl=C4=81=E1=B9= > =87i: the p=C4=81=E1=B9=ADhas are >> organized >>> into sections called (from the larger to the >>> smaller) kha=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da, s=C4=81ma, mantra (this last always >>> abb= > reviated as >> ma.). >>> =20 >>> The beginning of the text runs like this: >>> =20 >>> om v=C4=81co v=E1=B9=9Bte dve | huve v=C4=81c=C4=81m | t=C4=AB | >>> v=C4=81= > ca=E1=B9=83 v=C4=81ca=E1=B9=83 huve >> v=C4=81k | =E1=B9=ADhya =E1=B9=ADya >>> ta =C5=9Ba | =C5=9B=E1=B9=9B=E1=B9=87otu =C5=9Br=E1=B9=87otu v=C4=81g >>> v= > =C4=81k | hy=C4=AB dya ta =C5=9Ba | samai >> tu samai tu >>> v=C4=81g v=C4=81k | re | ramat=C4=81=E1=B9=83 ramat=C4=81=E1=B9=83 >>> ram= > =C4=81t=C4=81 au ho v=C4=81 | kilu >> kha=C5=9Bi | ih=C4=81 >>> ih=C4=81 ih=C4=81 | t=C5=AB | s=C4=81ma=E1=B9=83 | 1 | huv=C4=81 >>> iv=C4= > =81 c=C4=81=E1=B9=83 | =E1=B9=AD=C4=AB ca | >> v=C4=81ca=E1=B9=83 huv=C4=81 i | k=C4=81c >>> c=C4=81 =C5=9Ba | v=C4=81k | ta =C5=9Ba | =C5=9Br=E1=B9=87otu >>> =C5=9B=E1= > =B9=9B=E1=B9=87ot=C5=AB v=C4=81g v=C4=81k | c=C4=81=C5=9Ba >> c=C4=81ka phaplata =C5=9Ba | >>> --- >>> =20 >>> The explicit runs like this: >>> =20 >>> =C5=9Bukro=E1=B9=83 | c=C4=81 | =C5=9Bukra ho i | dvi=E1=B8=A5 | >>> =C5=9Bu= > kra h=C4=81 =C4=81 uv=C4=81 | =E1=B9=ADyu >> =E1=B9=ADya | e >>> bhr=C4=81 X=C4=81 bhr=C4=81j=C4=81 | tac ka =E1=B9=ADya kha | ma | 40 >>> | = > pr=C4=81j=C4=81patya=E1=B9=83 >> g=C4=81yatra=E1=B9=83 >>> pr=C4=81j=C4=81patya=E1=B9=83 g=C4=81yatra=E1=B9=83 | tat savitur >>> pare= > =E1=B9=87yo=E1=B9=83 | ca =C5=9Br=C5=AB | >>> bhargo devasya dhim=C4=81h=C4=81=E1=B9=83 =C4=AB dhiyo yo >>> n=C4=81=E1=B8= > =A5 pr=C4=81c=C4=81rha=E1=B9=83 bh=C4=81 o >> v=C4=81 | =E1=B9=ADy=E1=B9=9Bc >>> ka=E1=B9=ADyi sa=E1=B9=AD ca=C5=9Baka | =E1=B9=ADya =E1=B9=ADyac | >>> ov=C4= > =81 hu=E1=B9=83 bh=C4=81 | sa=E1=B9=AD ac >> =E1=B9=ADya | o v=C4=81 | c=C4=81 | >>> 41 | >>> --- >>> =20 >>> Final rubric: >>> =20 >>> =C5=9Bukl=C4=81=E1=B9=87i p=C4=81=E1=B9=ADhasam=C4=81pta=E1=B8=A5 | >>> hari= > om | ity >> =C4=81ra=E1=B9=87ap=C4=81=E1=B9=ADhasam=C4=81pta=E1=B8=A5 | >> =C5=9Bubham >>> astu =C5=9Br=C4=ABgurubhyo nama=E1=B8=A5 | >>> --- >>> =20 >>> Colophon (in Tamil language and script, added by a different hand): >>> =20 >>> cuppa=E1=B8=B7am kesava=E1=B9=89 =C4=81ra=E1=B9=87akuranta=E1=B9=83 >>> 1039= > =C4=81m ta k=C4=81rttika m=C4=81cam >> 5 til e=E1=B8=BButi >>> muki=C3=B1catu >>> --- >>> =20 >>> The words cuppa=E1=B8=B7am kesava=E1=B9=89 >>> =C4=81ra=E1=B9=87akuranta=E1= > =B9=83 recur also in the >> final >>> rubric of the ark=C4=81=E1=B9=87ip=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha: >>> =20 >>> s=C4=81ma=E1=B9=83 14 | kha=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da=E1=B9=83 6 | >>> ark=C4=81=E1= > =B9=87ip=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha sam=C4=81pta=E1=B8=A5 | >> cuppa=E1=B8=B7am >>> kesava=E1=B9=89 =C4=81ra=E1=B9=87akurenatam | >>> --- >>> =20 >>> The title seems to be "=C4=80ra=E1=B9=87akurantam (=3D >>> =C4=80ra=E1=B9=87= > ya-grantha?) of >>> Kesava=E1=B9=89", but I can't find any text bearing such a title (or >>> a >>> similar one) in any catalogue nor in the internet. Any suggestion >>> will be highly appreciated! >>> =20 >>> Many thanks in advance, >>> =20 >>> Marco Franceschini >>> --- >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info [1] >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info [1] >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://listinfo.indology.info/ >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info From palaniappa at aol.com Sun Nov 24 20:27:40 2013 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 13 15:27:40 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis Message-ID: <8D0B76AC16764C8-1A00-6AEA6@webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com> I agree completely with Rajam's statement, "There was no indication of "untouchability" in the Tamil society as reflected in early Tamil poems." Since George Hart has criticized my findings in his post, I would like to say that the contents of Hart's post are nothing new. All these have been addressed in my paper available at http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf . We have also discussed this in Indology in 2009. Here are the last two posts of the Indology discussion http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033485.html http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033486.html . So instead of going over material already covered, I shall discuss something I have not discussed so far. I shall summarize the crux of my views briefly at first. Those who are interested in the details can read further. For almost four decades, George Hart has propounded his views on the concept of dangerous sacred power,a?a?ku, among the Tamils and the practice of untouchability that resulted from contact with the sacred power. According to Hart, the P??a?s and Pa?aiya?s have always been the lowest castes because they were polluted because they came in contact with that sacred power. The only problem is that, as I had mentioned in 2009, there is clear epigraphic evidence that the Tamil Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) were not untouchables as late as the 11th century and Tamil P??ar (plural of the P??a?) are not untouchables even today. These facts completely invalidate Hart's theories. The reason Hart came to a conclusion diametrically opposite to mine is that his research methodology had major errors of commission and omission. Those who are interested in more details can read on below. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding the power of a?a?ku, Hart (1975a: 43) wrote: "This power had to be rigidly controlled. As a result, religious rites were carried out by the lowest castes: the Pa?aiya?s , the P??a?s, the Tu?iya?s, and the V?la?s...The V?la?, who is even today found among the Pa?aiya?s of Kerala, would dance ecstatically as he was possessed by Murugan, an indigenous god...The Pa?aiya?, the P??a?, and the Tu?iya? would each play a special instrument which was thought to be inhabited by a sacred power and which was used for various ritual purposes. The pollution which is attached to the low castes is thus a legacy of indigenous Dravidian religion." Hart's views of Tamil untouchability and sacred power are inseparable. And for his whole theory to have any validity, the Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) and the P??ar (plural of the P??a?) he has mentioned above should be untouchables or lowest castes. If even one group is not untouchable, his whole theory collapses. I have already mentioned that the Pa?aiyar were not untouchables in the 11th century. Hart (1975b:144) also says the following in connection with the Pa?aiyar: "Elsewhere, the drum played for the king in the morning is the muracu (Pu?. 61, 397; Ai?. 448) . While there is nowhere any indication of who played the muracu, it is not unlikely that a subcaste of the Pa?aiya?s had that office, especially as one of the modern subdivisions of that caste is called Muracu."2 [emphasis mine] Footnote 2 reads: Edgar T. Thurston, Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Madras, 1909), VI:80 But, as shown in page 1 of the attachment, what Thurston (1909:80) really said was: "At the census, 1891, 348 sub-divisions were returned, of which the following were strongest in point of numbers:- Amma found chiefly in Tanjore and Madura;...; Morasu (drum) in Salem;...". [emphasis mine] While Hart's change of -su to -cu may be understandable in terms of the Tamil transliteration system, the change of the radical vowel -o- to -u-, which changed the name of the Pa?aiyar subdivision matching the word for 'drum' used in the Classical Tamil texts he cited, was problematic. This change could not have been a typographical error since in a later publication Hart (1987: 475) also says: "One of the modern subdivisions of the Pa?aiya? caste is named "Muracu" (Thurston and Rangachari 1909: VI. 80), and it seems possible that this is a very ancient division." [emphasis mine] In light of Hart's suggestion of the possible antiquity of this Pa?aiyar subdivision, there is some interesting information about the Morasu subdivision not mentioned by Hart (1975b) and Hart (1987). As can be seen from the highlighted portion in page 2 of the attachment, Thurston (1909: 81) says the following: "It has been suggested to me that the Morasu Paraiyans, included in the above list are Canarese Holeyas, who have settled in the Tamil country." [emphasis mine] Even more interesting is the situation with respect to the P???r. Hart (1975b: 120) states: "The low status of bards may also be inferred from the fact that several centuries after the anthologies, Tirupp????v?r, who was a P??a? by caste, was considered to be so low that he was not allowed into the temple." (The story of Tirupp????v?r occurs in different medieval Vai??ava hagiographical works such as the ???yirappa?i Guruparampar?prabh?vam. While the Vai??ava hagiographical works depict the P?nar saint Tirupp????v?r as not being allowed to enter the temple, the Periyapur??am, the 12th century ?aiva haigiographical work, portrayed the P??ar saint Tirun?laka??ar as originally standing outside the temple and being brought inside due to intervention by ?iva Himself. In another instance, the brahmin saint Tiru???acampantar is said to have arranged for Tirun?laka?tar to sleep inside another brahmin saint's house.) Hart (1975b: 158) also stated: "The Pa?aiya? is found in Tamilnad, Kerala, and the Kota-speaking areas, while the P??a? is found in modern Kerala and Orissa, and in parts of ancient North India, where P??a meant a low-class bard." (The sources for the above statement were entries 3319 and 3351 in the first edition of Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (1960), which in turn, relied on Tamil Lexicon and A Malayalam and English Dictionary by Gundert for information related to Tamil and Malayalam words respectively.) As one can see, Hart (1975b) had left out any mention of the Tamil P??a? in present day Tamil Nadu. Based on the two statements of Hart quoted above, it seems Hart was not aware of the existence of the P??ar in present day Tamil Nadu. Otherwise, he would not have had to rely on medieval hagiography to ascertain the 'low' status of the P???r. Here lay a fundamental problem with Hart's research approach. He was producing sweeping anthropological conclusions with insufficient knowledge of people he was writing about. All Hart had to do was to turn a few pages in Thurston (1909), which he had anyway consulted in the case of the Pa?aiyar. Thurston (1909) spells P??a? as P????, with the second vowel being long ?. This spelling variation cannot be a reason for disregarding the entry. After all, Tamil Lexicon has entries connecting both variants as given below. ?????? p??a?, n. < ????. [M. p?na.] 1. An ancient class of Tamil bards and minstrels; ????????? ???????. ???????????????? (????. ??. 91). 2. See ??????. (W.) ?????? p????, n. < ??????. Man of the tailor caste; ?????????? ???????? Note that the Tamil Lexicon derives 'P????' from 'P??a?'. The entry in Thurston (1909: 29-42) on the P???? is a long one discussing both the Tamil P???? as well as the Malayalam P????. The entry opens with a very brief discussion of the Tamil P???? while discussion of the Malayalam P???? takes up the bulk of the entry. But it is the brief discussion of the Tamil P???? that Hart should have taken into account. As can be seen in page 3 of the attachment, the entry on the P????s opens with the following statement. "The Tamil P?n?ns are said, in the Census Report, 1901, to be also called M?stris. They are "tailors among Tamils in Madura and Tinnevelly. They employ Br?hmans and Vell?las as pur?hits. Though barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them, they are allowed to enter Hindu temples." Later in the entry, as shown in page 4 of the attachment, in regards to the P????s of Travancore, Thurston (1909: 33) says, "For the following account of the P?n?ns of Travancore, I am indebted to Mr. N. Subramani Aiyar. The word is of Tamil origin, and means a tailor. The title taken by them is Panikkan, the usual honorific appellation of most of the industrial castes of Malabar. They are supposed to be one with the P?n?ns of the Tamil country though much below them in the social scale." As Gundert's dictionary notes, in Southern Tamil usage P??a? could indicate a bard as well as a tailor. ??????? p??a? T. M. (T. ????? = ???? melody). A caste of musicians, actors & players; in So. T. also tailors B., necromancers D. (= ???????????, ?????????????, ??????). ??' ????? ???? ???? prov. ??'???? ??????????????? ???????? Bhr. ? ?????????? V1. a caste of slaves. Based on Tamil Lexicon and Gundert's dictionary, it is clear that P?n?n and P?nan are only variants of the same word. After all, there is no separate entry for P??a?s of Kerala in Thurston (1909). Hart should have investigated if the P?n?n/P?nan, the tailor, and P?n?n/P?nan, the bard, were related in any way. If he had conducted some fieldwork like anthropologists do before writing about different communities, he would have quickly realized that the tailors were from the same community as earlier bards. At least if he had done a careful literature review, he would have gotten the true picture of the P?nans. For instance, the Arumpatavurai commentary for the Cilappatik?ram glosses tu??ak?rar in Cilappatik?ram (5.32) as P??ar. Also, as has been pointed out by Aiyar ([1924] 1999: 109), Travancore king B?lar?ma Varma's Sanskrit work, B?lar?ma Bharatam of the 18th century, presents as a tailor the bard P??apattiran of Madurai mentioned in the opening poem of the 11th Tirumu?ai of the ?aiva canon. Irakavan (1971: 79), a 20th century scholar, stated: "????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ????????????????. ??????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????. ???? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ??????? ????? ????? ????????????. ??? ????. ?????, ?????????? ????????????? ????????????????? ?????, ????????????, ???????????? ????? ????????? ???????? ???????????.???????????? ???? ????? ?????? ???????????????????." Here is a translation of the above quote. "Many wonder if the P??ar caste/lineage exists today. The P??ar caste/lineage has not perished. It exists in the P???iya country even today. Some say that with the disappearance of the lute, the P??ar caste/lineage is ruined too. That is wrong. But people of the P??ar caste/lineage live in small numbers in Maturai, Tirunelv?li, and C?tta?ku?am. Without an occupation, many are engaged in the job of tailoring." I have attached a table from Ludden (1996:123) showing the status of the P??a? in Tirunelveli district in 1823. (See page 5 of the attachment. The date of 1923 shown in the table title should actually be 1823.) One can see that they were small in number but part of the large 'Sudra' category. So were barbers and washermen. None of them was/is an untouchable community. That is why K. K. Pillay (1969: 208), while discussing the use of pulaitti in Classical Tamil texts to refer to the washerwoman, said, "It is not known how the term 'Pulaitti' came to be employed to denote her, because in later times the class of washermen was not identical with that of 'Pulaiyar'." Many of the traditional upper caste Tamil pundits of the 20th century did not distinguish between hagiography and history. For them what the Periyapur??am and the Guruparampar? Prabhavam were presenting was history. They did not see these works as propagandist texts intended to promote a specific ideology. So these Tamil pundits believed that the P??ar were untouchables of earlier Tamil society. These Tamil teachers and especially Tamil teachers in northern Tamil Nadu did not know that Tamil P??ar have continued to exist as a community even today and are suffering no untouchability. Most of these Tamil pundits were not knowledgeable about the reality-based social information available in the inscriptions. For instance, they did not know that the P??ar were engaged in singing in front of the deities in brahminic temples, training the temple women in music, and were given houses and money by royal order to perform these duties. See page 6 of the attachment for a translation of a 12th century inscription in the Tiruvi?aimarut?r temple by Orr (2000: 102). Some scholars in Southern Tamil Nadu like Irakavan (1971:78-79) were sold on the Periyapuranam's promotional view that it was the egalitarian nature of the Bhakti movement that allowed the P??ar to enter temples. (On this score, the Periyapur??am had succeeded in its promotional objective.) They had failed to note that Paripatal 3, a pre-Bhakti-movement Classical Tamil poem, calls Visnu "a good P??a? of lute" in a poem that is full of Vedic and Puranic elements. As part of the poem's adoration of Vi??u, Parip??al 3: 81-86 offers the following praise: "You are the red-eyed one with dark complexion (V?sudeva), the black-eyed and white complexioned one (Sankar?a?a), the golden complexioned one (Pradyumna), the green complexioned one (Aniruddha), the one who dances to the left and right (of cowherd girls), the one who dances with the pot, the one who has the plough, the one who is the lord of cowherds, the one who protects, the one whose nature is not being seen, the one who never leaves the devotee's thought, the one that never dies, the one who rules the world, the poet of ancient texts, the good P???? of lute..." One cannot imagine this if the P??a? were untouchable before the time of Tiru?anacampantar. One can understand the traditional Tamil pundits' ahistorical view given their possibly limited exposure to historiography, anthropology, and comparative linguistics. But one would expect a US scholar with access to Western critical scholarship and other resources at Harvard University, University of Wisconsin-Madison, and University of California, Berkeley to critically explore and evaluate facts. Even after Orr (2000) published the translation of the Tiruvi?aimarut?r inscription shown in the attachment, Hart has not updated his views. The facts that the Tamil Pa?aiyar were not untouchable even until 11th century and the P??ar are not untouchable even today completely invalidate Hart's theories regarding untouchability among ancient Tamils. Moreover, if contact with a?a?ku, the sacred power, caused one to be polluted and become untouchable, T?vantikai, a brahmin woman in the Cilappatikaram, a post-ClassicalTamil epic, who got possessed by C?tta?, danced, and offered oracles would not have been appointed as a priestess by the king in a temple with Vedic sacrificial hall. (See http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2013-November/038692.html) It is ironic that in order to buttress his views Hart is citing Dravidian Etymological Dictionary as if its groupings are true for all time and as if it gives etymological roots. He is incorrect on both counts. (Deriving etymological roots purely based on dictionary entries without considering the philological context can lead to wrong etymologies as in the case of Tamil ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' (DEDR 396), which S. Starostin derives from *??-. See http://tinyurl.com/q64ko6e . But literary and epigraphic data clearly show that ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' should be grouped with DEDR 5157. See http://www.linguist.jussieu.fr/~chevilla/FestSchrift/supa_9d.pdf for the reasons. Hart's discussion of pul as a root is just another example of the same kind of etymologizing.) Dravidian Etymology Dictionary's author, Emeneau, would be the last person to hold such views. A good example of Emeneau's genuine open-minded scholarship can be seen in Emeneau (1988), after the revised Dravidian Etymological Dictionary was published in 1984. In other words, philological, epigraphic, and sociological data clearly refute Hart's theories of sacred power and untouchability among Tamils, which were based on a research approach with fundamental problems. References Emeneau. M. B. 1988. Proto-Dravidian *C- and Its Developments. Journal of the American Oriental Society 108, no. 2: 239--268. Irakavan. A. 1971. Icaiyum Yalum. Tirunelveli: Kalain?? Patippakam. Hart, George L., III. 1975a. Ancient Tamil Literature: Its Scholarly Past and Future. In Essays on South India. Edited by Burton Stein, 41-63. University of Hawaii: The University Press of Hawaii. Hart, George. L., III. 1975b. The Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their Milieu and Their Sanskrit Counterparts. Berkeley: University of California Press. Hart, George L., III. 1987. Early Evidence for Caste in South India. In Dimentions of Social Life: Essays in Honor of David G. Mandelbaum. Edited by Paul Hockings. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter. Ludden, D. E. 1996. Caste Society and Units of Production in Early Modern South India. In Institutions and Economic Change in South Asia: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives. Edited by Burton Stein and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, 105-133. New Delhi: Oxford University Press. Orr, Leslie. 2000. Donors, Daughters, and Devotees of God: Temple Women in Medieval Tamilnadu. New York: Oxford University Press. Pillay, K. K. 1969. A Social History of the Tamils Part I. Madras: University of Madras. Thurston, E. 1909. Castes and Tribes of Southern India. Vol. 6. Madras: Government Press. ----------------------- Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: George Hart To: Indology List Sent: Tue, Oct 15, 2013 2:49 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis Actually, there is quite a bit of evidence for caste ? and untouchability ? in Sangam literature. It should be kept in mind that references to j?ti (and especially untouchability) in Indian classical k?vya and the like are not common. Still, there are mentions of ?people of low birth,? pulaiya?s (= Dalits or other low castes) and other epithets implying low caste and status. The groups receiving these appellations are leatherworkers, drummers (of two types), and washermen, among others. According to the Tamil Lexicon, the word pulai means "baseness, uncleanness, defilement [incurred from contact with a ritually polluting substance or person], evil, animal food, outcaste, and stench.? The root pul is in the DED. Among its meaning in various languages are Kannada pole meaning menstrual flow, impurity from childbirth, defilement, Ko?agu pole, pollution caused by menstruation, birth, or death, Tulu pol?, pollution, defilement, and, far afield, Brahui p?ling, stain, stain on one?s character. Most of the Southern languages have some equivalent for Tamil pulaiya?, man of low caste. An example is Pu?am 287.1, ?O Pulaiya? who beats the tu?i drum, O low one (i?ici?a) who [holds] sticks that strike [the drum].? ???? ??????? ?????! ??????? ???????? ??????! Another example is Pu?am 360: When people have been carried on the bier 15 to the burning ground, that fearful place of desolation, that salty wasteland overgrown with spurge, site of what is other than life, and they lie there on grass, receiving toddy and a few grains of rice at the command of outcaste Pulaiya?, and then they have entered the mouth of fire, 20 for many of these who ate and grew fat no fame has flourished! (Note that ?outcaste? is added here for clarity). ????????? ??????? ????? ???????, ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????????, ???????? ??????? ???????? , ?????? ?????????? ???? ????????? ?????, ??????? ???? ???????? ????????????, ?????????? ????? ????????, ???????????? ??????, ?????????? ???? Palaniyappan, who believes there was no caste in Sangam times, has argued that the word pulai comes from poli, ?shine? and has positive connotations, but this does not accord with the DED or the uses of the word in other Dravidian languages. George On Oct 14, 2013, at 10:53 AM, Rajam wrote: This response is in reference to Whitney's comment: /// I would like to revise that suggestion, and instead propose that we might see here a reflex of another set of South-Indian caste-communities referred to in Tamil as the ku?imakka?, perhaps best rendered 'people of the village'. The entry s.v. in the Madras Tamil Lexicon reads (with my transliteration and bracketed translations): ku?imakka? , n. < id. +. 1. Sub-castes rendering service in a village, being 18 in number, viz.,va???? [washerman], n?vita? [barber], kuyava? [potter], ta???? [goldsmith], ka???? [brazier], ka??acca? [mason], kolla? [blacksmith], tacca?[carpenter], e??eyv??ika? [oil merchant], uppuv??ika? [salt merchant], ilaiv??ika? [betel merchant], pa??i [watchman], p?m?laikk?ra? [garland maker], pa?aiya? [Dalit, pariah], k?vilku?iy?? [conch-blower], occa? [? another Dalit community], valaiya? [fisherman], p??a? [tailor]. /// 1. Re: The term "caste." You can start from the entry in wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste. 2. The Portuguese started using the term "casta" when they came to the southern part of Tamilnadu (in the 16-th century) and tried to learn Tamil and describe Tamil in Portuguese for the sake of further missionary activities. "Casta" was the term they used to describe the various groups of people they noticed in the local society. I happened to have the opportunity to work through the Portuguese manuscript (from 1549 A.D.), by Fr. Henrique Henriques, which describes Tamil in Portuguese. As a "Latin grammarian," Henriques had problems categorizing people's local names when doing the declensions. So ? when he lists a set of local names for the first declension, he says, "Names for occupations. Such nouns for occupations are also nouns of castes." For further details, please see our book "The Earliest Missionary Grammar, Harvard University Press, 2013." 3. Re: Madras Tamil Lexicon entries. Well ? there are discrepancies. For example, if anyone seriously wants to study the history of "castes" or any such thing, one should also look at all their entries beginning with the root/stem of the word. Just for fun, try all the words starting with the stem "ku?i," and you'll see that words such as "ku?imaka?," "ku?imakka?," and so on don't have contiguous semantics. 4. The term "c?ti/????/????" was never restricted to refer to humans in order to indicate high/low status. It just referred to different types of living beings. 5. There was no indication of "untouchability" in the Tamil society as reflected in early Tamil poems. 6. Even when Fr. Henriques (16-th century) listed the names/nouns for people in the Tamil land where he lived and served, he never indicated that there was "untouchability" due to the existence of certain people. ++++++++++++ It IS sad that some modern socio-anthro studies have presented local cultures in ways that the locals cannot understand or accept. To me, it all looks like a cookie-cutter analysis for individual academic progress. Thanks and regards, Rajam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Exhibits-Paraiyar-Panar1.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 479892 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hellwig7 at gmx.de Sun Nov 24 21:08:53 2013 From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 13 22:08:53 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dvandvas Message-ID: <52926AE5.7070704@gmx.de> Dear list, a very basic question about Sanskrit syntax: Are dvandvas, in traditional Sanskrit grammar, considered to be inherently binary, which means that dvandvas consisting of n>2 words should be bracketed by (n-1) brackets when constructing a dependency tree? Ex.: kaTutiktakashAyaushadha = "a herb that is kaTu, tikta and kashaya" Should a dependency tree constructed from this expression look like ... a. ((((kaTu + tikta)[dvandva] + kashAya)[dvandva]) + aushadha)[...] = "nested" dvandva or like b. ((kaTu + tikta + kashAya)[dvandva] + aushadha)[...] Any comment is welcome! Best regards, Oliver Hellwig From glhart at berkeley.edu Sun Nov 24 22:15:35 2013 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 13 14:15:35 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis In-Reply-To: <8D0B76AC16764C8-1A00-6AEA6@webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1BC3DC51-D3C4-4438-B41C-EAB47451851F@berkeley.edu> In my opinion, the poems speak for themselves. When the Sangam poems say someone was of despised birth and we see the same group among the Dalits today, that must mean they were Dalits then, I would think. It would be very nice if Sangam society was casteless and we could point to it as an exemplar of what India would be like without the Brahmins or whatever group is supposed to have dreamed up the caste system. The fact remains that caste is spread from Nepal to Sri Lanka and from Assam to Pakistan among many ethnic groups and religions. I think it must be very ancient, and almost certainly pre-Aryan, as the Vedic Aryans had nothing whatsoever like the j?ti system. But however that may be, the Sangam poems specifically mention caste many times. No doubt Palaniappan and I will disagree on this forever, but I think it is important to state that I am not at all persuaded by his arguments. I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not. Apparently, they occupied (and still occupy) a position somewhat above the Dalits, as they stayed in the homes of rich people, sang for them, and also served as go-betweens between rich men and their women. And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them. Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples. If the poems don?t mean what they say, then there may not have been caste in Sangam times in TN. If they do, then it is very difficult to argue against the existence of caste, in my opinion. George On Nov 24, 2013, at 12:27 PM, palaniappa at aol.com wrote: > I agree completely with Rajam's statement, "There was no indication of "untouchability" in the Tamil society as reflected in early Tamil poems." > > Since George Hart has criticized my findings in his post, I would like to say that the contents of Hart's post are nothing new. All these have been addressed in my paper available at http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf . We have also discussed this in Indology in 2009. Here are the last two posts of the Indology discussion http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033485.html > http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033486.html . > So instead of going over material already covered, I shall discuss something I have not discussed so far. I shall summarize the crux of my views briefly at first. Those who are interested in the details can read further. > > For almost four decades, George Hart has propounded his views on the concept of dangerous sacred power,a?a?ku, among the Tamils and the practice of untouchability that resulted from contact with the sacred power. According to Hart, the P??a?s and Pa?aiya?s have always been the lowest castes because they were polluted because they came in contact with that sacred power. The only problem is that, as I had mentioned in 2009, there is clear epigraphic evidence that the Tamil Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) were not untouchables as late as the 11th century and Tamil P??ar (plural of the P??a?) are not untouchables even today. These facts completely invalidate Hart's theories. The reason Hart came to a conclusion diametrically opposite to mine is that his research methodology had major errors of commission and omission. > > Those who are interested in more details can read on below. > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Regarding the power of a?a?ku, Hart (1975a: 43) wrote: > > "This power had to be rigidly controlled. As a result, religious rites were carried out by the lowest castes: the Pa?aiya?s , the P??a?s, the Tu?iya?s, and the V?la?s...The V?la?, who is even today found among the Pa?aiya?s of Kerala, would dance ecstatically as he was possessed by Murugan, an indigenous god...The Pa?aiya?, the P??a?, and the Tu?iya? would each play a special instrument which was thought to be inhabited by a sacred power and which was used for various ritual purposes. The pollution which is attached to the low castes is thus a legacy of indigenous Dravidian religion." > > Hart's views of Tamil untouchability and sacred power are inseparable. And for his whole theory to have any validity, the Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) and the P??ar (plural of the P??a?) he has mentioned above should be untouchables or lowest castes. If even one group is not untouchable, his whole theory collapses. I have already mentioned that the Pa?aiyar were not untouchables in the 11th century. > > Hart (1975b:144) also says the following in connection with the Pa?aiyar: > "Elsewhere, the drum played for the king in the morning is the muracu (Pu?. 61, 397; Ai?. 448) . While there is nowhere any indication of who played the muracu, it is not unlikely that a subcaste of the Pa?aiya?s had that office, especially as one of the modern subdivisions of that caste is called Muracu."2 [emphasis mine] > > Footnote 2 reads: > Edgar T. Thurston, Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Madras, 1909), VI:80 > > But, as shown in page 1 of the attachment, what Thurston (1909:80) really said was: > "At the census, 1891, 348 sub-divisions were returned, of which the following were strongest in point of numbers:- Amma found chiefly in Tanjore and Madura;...; Morasu (drum) in Salem;...". [emphasis mine] > > While Hart's change of -su to -cu may be understandable in terms of the Tamil transliteration system, the change of the radical vowel -o- to -u-, which changed the name of the Pa?aiyar subdivision matching the word for 'drum' used in the Classical Tamil texts he cited, was problematic. This change could not have been a typographical error since in a later publication Hart (1987: 475) also says: > > "One of the modern subdivisions of the Pa?aiya? caste is named "Muracu" (Thurston and Rangachari 1909: VI. 80), and it seems possible that this is a very ancient division." [emphasis mine] > > In light of Hart's suggestion of the possible antiquity of this Pa?aiyar subdivision, there is some interesting information about the Morasu subdivision not mentioned by Hart (1975b) and Hart (1987). As can be seen from the highlighted portion in page 2 of the attachment, Thurston (1909: 81) says the following: > > "It has been suggested to me that the Morasu Paraiyans, included in the above list are Canarese Holeyas, who have settled in the Tamil country." [emphasis mine] > > Even more interesting is the situation with respect to the P???r. Hart (1975b: 120) states: > > "The low status of bards may also be inferred from the fact that several centuries after the anthologies, Tirupp????v?r, who was a P??a? by caste, was considered to be so low that he was not allowed into the temple." > > (The story of Tirupp????v?r occurs in different medieval Vai??ava hagiographical works such as the ???yirappa?i Guruparampar?prabh?vam. While the Vai??ava hagiographical works depict the P?nar saint Tirupp????v?r as not being allowed to enter the temple, the Periyapur??am, the 12th century ?aiva haigiographical work, portrayed the P??ar saint Tirun?laka??ar as originally standing outside the temple and being brought inside due to intervention by ?iva Himself. In another instance, the brahmin saint Tiru???acampantar is said to have arranged for Tirun?laka?tar to sleep inside another brahmin saint's house.) > > Hart (1975b: 158) also stated: > > "The Pa?aiya? is found in Tamilnad, Kerala, and the Kota-speaking areas, while the P??a? is found in modern Kerala and Orissa, and in parts of ancient North India, where P??a meant a low-class bard." > > (The sources for the above statement were entries 3319 and 3351 in the first edition of Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (1960), which in turn, relied on Tamil Lexicon and A Malayalam and English Dictionary by Gundert for information related to Tamil and Malayalam words respectively.) > > As one can see, Hart (1975b) had left out any mention of the Tamil P??a? in present day Tamil Nadu. Based on the two statements of Hart quoted above, it seems Hart was not aware of the existence of the P??ar in present day Tamil Nadu. Otherwise, he would not have had to rely on medieval hagiography to ascertain the 'low' status of the P???r. Here lay a fundamental problem with Hart's research approach. He was producing sweeping anthropological conclusions with insufficient knowledge of people he was writing about. > > All Hart had to do was to turn a few pages in Thurston (1909), which he had anyway consulted in the case of the Pa?aiyar. Thurston (1909) spells P??a? as P????, with the second vowel being long ?. This spelling variation cannot be a reason for disregarding the entry. After all, Tamil Lexicon has entries connecting both variants as given below. > > ?????? p??a?, n. < ????. [M. p?na.] 1. An ancient class of Tamil bards and minstrels; ????????? ???????. ???????????????? (????. ??. 91). 2. See ??????. (W.) > > ?????? p????, n. < ??????. Man of the tailor caste; ?????????? ???????? > > Note that the Tamil Lexicon derives 'P????' from 'P??a?'. > > The entry in Thurston (1909: 29-42) on the P???? is a long one discussing both the Tamil P???? as well as the Malayalam P????. The entry opens with a very brief discussion of the Tamil P???? while discussion of the Malayalam P???? takes up the bulk of the entry. But it is the brief discussion of the Tamil P???? that Hart should have taken into account. > > As can be seen in page 3 of the attachment, the entry on the P????s opens with the following statement. "The Tamil P?n?ns are said, in the Census Report, 1901, to be also called M?stris. They are "tailors among Tamils in Madura and Tinnevelly. They employ Br?hmans and Vell?las as pur?hits. Though barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them, they are allowed to enter Hindu temples." Later in the entry, as shown in page 4 of the attachment, in regards to the P????s of Travancore, Thurston (1909: 33) says, "For the following account of the P?n?ns of Travancore, I am indebted to Mr. N. Subramani Aiyar. The word is of Tamil origin, and means a tailor. The title taken by them is Panikkan, the usual honorific appellation of most of the industrial castes of Malabar. They are supposed to be one with the P?n?ns of the Tamil country though much below them in the social scale." > > As Gundert's dictionary notes, in Southern Tamil usage P??a? could indicate a bard as well as a tailor. > ??????? p??a? T. M. (T. ????? = ???? melody). A caste of musicians, actors & players; in So. T. also tailors B., necromancers D. (= ???????????, ?????????????, ??????). ??' ????? ???? ???? prov. ??'???? ??????????????? ???????? Bhr. ? ?????????? V1. a caste of slaves. > > Based on Tamil Lexicon and Gundert's dictionary, it is clear that P?n?n and P?nan are only variants of the same word. After all, there is no separate entry for P??a?s of Kerala in Thurston (1909). Hart should have investigated if the P?n?n/P?nan, the tailor, and P?n?n/P?nan, the bard, were related in any way. If he had conducted some fieldwork like anthropologists do before writing about different communities, he would have quickly realized that the tailors were from the same community as earlier bards. At least if he had done a careful literature review, he would have gotten the true picture of the P?nans. > > For instance, the Arumpatavurai commentary for the Cilappatik?ram glosses tu??ak?rar in Cilappatik?ram (5.32) as P??ar. Also, as has been pointed out by Aiyar ([1924] 1999: 109), Travancore king B?lar?ma Varma's Sanskrit work, B?lar?ma Bharatam of the 18th century, presents as a tailor the bard P??apattiran of Madurai mentioned in the opening poem of the 11th Tirumu?ai of the ?aiva canon. Irakavan (1971: 79), a 20th century scholar, stated: > > "????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ????????????????. ??????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????. ???? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ??????? ????? ????? ????????????. ??? ????. ?????, ?????????? ????????????? ????????????????? ?????, ????????????, ???????????? ????? ????????? ???????? ???????????.???????????? ???? ????? ?????? ???????????????????." > > Here is a translation of the above quote. > "Many wonder if the P??ar caste/lineage exists today. The P??ar caste/lineage has not perished. It exists in the P???iya country even today. Some say that with the disappearance of the lute, the P??ar caste/lineage is ruined too. That is wrong. But people of the P??ar caste/lineage live in small numbers in Maturai, Tirunelv?li, and C?tta?ku?am. Without an occupation, many are engaged in the job of tailoring." > > I have attached a table from Ludden (1996:123) showing the status of the P??a? in Tirunelveli district in 1823. (See page 5 of the attachment. The date of 1923 shown in the table title should actually be 1823.) One can see that they were small in number but part of the large 'Sudra' category. So were barbers and washermen. None of them was/is an untouchable community. That is why K. K. Pillay (1969: 208), while discussing the use of pulaitti in Classical Tamil texts to refer to the washerwoman, said, "It is not known how the term 'Pulaitti' came to be employed to denote her, because in later times the class of washermen was not identical with that of 'Pulaiyar'." > > Many of the traditional upper caste Tamil pundits of the 20th century did not distinguish between hagiography and history. For them what the Periyapur??am and the Guruparampar? Prabhavam were presenting was history. They did not see these works as propagandist texts intended to promote a specific ideology. So these Tamil pundits believed that the P??ar were untouchables of earlier Tamil society. These Tamil teachers and especially Tamil teachers in northern Tamil Nadu did not know that Tamil P??ar have continued to exist as a community even today and are suffering no untouchability. > > Most of these Tamil pundits were not knowledgeable about the reality-based social information available in the inscriptions. For instance, they did not know that the P??ar were engaged in singing in front of the deities in brahminic temples, training the temple women in music, and were given houses and money by royal order to perform these duties. See page 6 of the attachment for a translation of a 12th century inscription in the Tiruvi?aimarut?r temple by Orr (2000: 102). > > Some scholars in Southern Tamil Nadu like Irakavan (1971:78-79) were sold on the Periyapuranam's promotional view that it was the egalitarian nature of the Bhakti movement that allowed the P??ar to enter temples. (On this score, the Periyapur??am had succeeded in its promotional objective.) They had failed to note that Paripatal 3, a pre-Bhakti-movement Classical Tamil poem, calls Visnu "a good P??a? of lute" in a poem that is full of Vedic and Puranic elements. As part of the poem's adoration of Vi??u, Parip??al 3: 81-86 offers the following praise: > > "You are the red-eyed one with dark complexion (V?sudeva), the black-eyed and white complexioned one (Sankar?a?a), the golden complexioned one (Pradyumna), the green complexioned one (Aniruddha), the one who dances to the left and right (of cowherd girls), the one who dances with the pot, the one who has the plough, the one who is the lord of cowherds, the one who protects, the one whose nature is not being seen, the one who never leaves the devotee's thought, the one that never dies, the one who rules the world, the poet of ancient texts, the good P???? of lute..." > > One cannot imagine this if the P??a? were untouchable before the time of Tiru?anacampantar. > > One can understand the traditional Tamil pundits' ahistorical view given their possibly limited exposure to historiography, anthropology, and comparative linguistics. But one would expect a US scholar with access to Western critical scholarship and other resources at Harvard University, University of Wisconsin-Madison, and University of California, Berkeley to critically explore and evaluate facts. Even after Orr (2000) published the translation of the Tiruvi?aimarut?r inscription shown in the attachment, Hart has not updated his views. > > The facts that the Tamil Pa?aiyar were not untouchable even until 11th century and the P??ar are not untouchable even today completely invalidate Hart's theories regarding untouchability among ancient Tamils. > Moreover, if contact with a?a?ku, the sacred power, caused one to be polluted and become untouchable, T?vantikai, a brahmin woman in the Cilappatikaram, a post-ClassicalTamil epic, who got possessed by C?tta?, danced, and offered oracles would not have been appointed as a priestess by the king in a temple with Vedic sacrificial hall. (See http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2013-November/038692.html) > > It is ironic that in order to buttress his views Hart is citing Dravidian Etymological Dictionary as if its groupings are true for all time and as if it gives etymological roots. He is incorrect on both counts. (Deriving etymological roots purely based on dictionary entries without considering the philological context can lead to wrong etymologies as in the case of Tamil ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' (DEDR 396), which S. Starostin derives from *??-. See http://tinyurl.com/q64ko6e . But literary and epigraphic data clearly show that ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' should be grouped with DEDR 5157. See http://www.linguist.jussieu.fr/~chevilla/FestSchrift/supa_9d.pdf for the reasons. Hart's discussion of pul as a root is just another example of the same kind of etymologizing.) Dravidian Etymology Dictionary's author, Emeneau, would be the last person to hold such views. A good example of Emeneau's genuine open-minded scholarship can be seen in Emeneau (1988), after the revised Dravidian Etymological Dictionary was published in 1984. > > In other words, philological, epigraphic, and sociological data clearly refute Hart's theories of sacred power and untouchability among Tamils, which were based on a research approach with fundamental problems. > > > References > > > Emeneau. M. B. 1988. Proto-Dravidian *C- and Its Developments. Journal of the American Oriental Society 108, no. 2: 239--268. > > Irakavan. A. 1971. Icaiyum Yalum. Tirunelveli: Kalain?? Patippakam. > > Hart, George L., III. 1975a. Ancient Tamil Literature: Its Scholarly Past and Future. In Essays on South India. Edited by Burton Stein, 41-63. University of Hawaii: The University Press of Hawaii. > > Hart, George. L., III. 1975b. The Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their Milieu and Their Sanskrit Counterparts. Berkeley: University of California Press. > > Hart, George L., III. 1987. Early Evidence for Caste in South India. In Dimentions of Social Life: Essays in Honor of David G. Mandelbaum. Edited by Paul Hockings. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter. > > Ludden, D. E. 1996. Caste Society and Units of Production in Early Modern South India. In > Institutions and Economic Change in South Asia: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives. Edited by Burton Stein and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, 105-133. New Delhi: Oxford University Press. > > Orr, Leslie. 2000. Donors, Daughters, and Devotees of God: Temple Women in Medieval Tamilnadu. New York: Oxford University Press. > > Pillay, K. K. 1969. A Social History of the Tamils Part I. Madras: University of Madras. > > Thurston, E. 1909. Castes and Tribes of Southern India. Vol. 6. Madras: Government Press. > ----------------------- > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > -----Original Message----- > From: George Hart > To: Indology List > Sent: Tue, Oct 15, 2013 2:49 pm > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis > > Actually, there is quite a bit of evidence for caste ? and untouchability ? in Sangam literature. It should be kept in mind that references to j?ti (and especially untouchability) in Indian classical k?vya and the like are not common. Still, there are mentions of ?people of low birth,? pulaiya?s (= Dalits or other low castes) and other epithets implying low caste and status. The groups receiving these appellations are leatherworkers, drummers (of two types), and washermen, among others. According to the Tamil Lexicon, the word pulai means "baseness, uncleanness, defilement [incurred from contact with a ritually polluting substance or person], evil, animal food, outcaste, and stench.? The root pul is in the DED. Among its meaning in various languages are Kannada pole meaning menstrual flow, impurity from childbirth, defilement, Ko?agu pole, pollution caused by menstruation, birth, or death, Tulu pol?, pollution, defilement, and, far afield, Brahui p?ling, stain, stain on one?s character. Most of the Southern languages have some equivalent for Tamil pulaiya?, man of low caste. > > An example is Pu?am 287.1, ?O Pulaiya? who beats the tu?i drum, O low one (i?ici?a) who [holds] sticks that strike [the drum].? > ???? ??????? ?????! > ??????? ???????? ??????! > > Another example is Pu?am 360: > > When people have been carried on the bier 15 > to the burning ground, that fearful place of desolation, > that salty wasteland overgrown with spurge, site of what > is other than life, and they lie there on grass, receiving toddy > and a few grains of rice at the command of outcaste Pulaiya?, > and then they have entered the mouth of fire, 20 > for many of these who ate and grew fat no fame has flourished! > > (Note that ?outcaste? is added here for clarity). > > ????????? > ??????? ????? ???????, ???? > ????? ????? ???? ?????????, > ???????? ??????? ???????? , ?????? > ?????????? ???? ????????? ?????, > ??????? ???? ???????? ????????????, > ?????????? ????? ????????, > ???????????? ??????, ?????????? ???? > > > Palaniyappan, who believes there was no caste in Sangam times, has argued that the word pulai comes from poli, ?shine? and has positive connotations, but this does not accord with the DED or the uses of the word in other Dravidian languages. > > George > > On Oct 14, 2013, at 10:53 AM, Rajam wrote: > This response is in reference to Whitney's comment: > > /// I would like to revise that suggestion, and instead propose that we might see here a reflex of another set of South-Indian caste-communities referred to in Tamil as the ku?imakka?, perhaps best rendered 'people of the village'. The entry s.v. in the Madras Tamil Lexicon reads (with my transliteration and bracketed translations): > > ku?imakka? , n. < id. +. 1. Sub-castes rendering service in a village, being 18 in number, viz.,va???? [washerman], n?vita? [barber], kuyava? [potter], ta???? [goldsmith], ka???? [brazier], ka??acca? [mason], kolla? [blacksmith], tacca?[carpenter], e??eyv??ika? [oil merchant], uppuv??ika? [salt merchant], ilaiv??ika? [betel merchant], pa??i [watchman], p?m?laikk?ra? [garland maker], pa?aiya? [Dalit, pariah], k?vilku?iy?? [conch-blower], occa? [? another Dalit community], valaiya? [fisherman], p??a? [tailor]. /// > > > 1. Re: The term "caste." You can start from the entry in wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste. > > 2. The Portuguese started using the term "casta" when they came to the southern part of Tamilnadu (in the 16-th century) and tried to learn Tamil and describe Tamil in Portuguese for the sake of further missionary activities. "Casta" was the term they used to describe the various groups of people they noticed in the local society. I happened to have the opportunity to work through the Portuguese manuscript (from 1549 A.D.), by Fr. Henrique Henriques, which describes Tamil in Portuguese. As a "Latin grammarian," Henriques had problems categorizing people's local names when doing the declensions. So ? when he lists a set of local names for the first declension, he says, "Names for occupations. Such nouns for occupations are also nouns of castes." For further details, please see our book "The Earliest Missionary Grammar, Harvard University Press, 2013." > > 3. Re: Madras Tamil Lexicon entries. Well ? there are discrepancies. For example, if anyone seriously wants to study the history of "castes" or any such thing, one should also look at all their entries beginning with the root/stem of the word. Just for fun, try all the words starting with the stem "ku?i," and you'll see that words such as "ku?imaka?," "ku?imakka?," and so on don't have contiguous semantics. > > 4. The term "c?ti/????/????" was never restricted to refer to humans in order to indicate high/low status. It just referred to different types of living beings. > > 5. There was no indication of "untouchability" in the Tamil society as reflected in early Tamil poems. > > 6. Even when Fr. Henriques (16-th century) listed the names/nouns for people in the Tamil land where he lived and served, he never indicated that there was "untouchability" due to the existence of certain people. > > ++++++++++++ > > It IS sad that some modern socio-anthro studies have presented local cultures in ways that the locals cannot understand or accept. To me, it all looks like a cookie-cutter analysis for individual academic progress. > > Thanks and regards, > Rajam > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Sun Nov 24 23:32:05 2013 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 13 15:32:05 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis Message-ID: <24348528.1385335925596.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> My apologies for any inaccuracies in the font rendition, since I'm having a serious computer problem. George wrote: ///In my opinion, the poems speak for themselves. /// Exactly! That's how I also feel and understand these poems. ///When the Sangam poems say someone was of despised birth and we see the same group among the Dalits today, that must mean they were Dalits then, I would think. /// It's too much of a stretch over time. When the Sangam poems say someone was of "despised birth" I think you're referring to the word "izipiRappALan2." I'd like to propose that this word is a translation of "anuloma," a person born of mixed groups (king + brahmin, king + merchant, king + pheasnt; brahmin + merchant, ... . I have quite a bit of information on this from the commentaries on the Tolkappiyam. In fact, one of the commentaries mentions 6 types of such anuloma-s. When I have the time I'll develop my theory and share it with others. ///But however that may be, the Sangam poems specifically mention caste many times./// And yet, I have not gotten an answer to my specific question: "What is the word for 'caste' used in the Sangam poems? More when I have a robust computing environment. Regards, Rajam From cardonagj at verizon.net Mon Nov 25 00:12:02 2013 From: cardonagj at verizon.net (George Cardona) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 13 19:12:02 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dvandvas In-Reply-To: <52926AE5.7070704@gmx.de> Message-ID: Traditionally, anekam of anekam anyapad?rthe (A???dhy?y? 2.2.24), first stated after 2.2.23: ?e?o bahuvr?hi?, is considered to recur in 2.2.29: c?rthe dvandva?, so that a dvandva can be formed from any number of padas; cf. K??ik? 2.2.29: anekam iti vartate |aneka? subanta? c?rthe vartam?na? samasyate ... There does not, therefore, appear to be a binary bracketing. Regards, George On Nov 24, 2013, at 4:08 PM, Oliver Hellwig wrote: > Dear list, > > a very basic question about Sanskrit syntax: Are dvandvas, in traditional Sanskrit grammar, considered to be inherently binary, which means that dvandvas consisting of n>2 words should be bracketed by (n-1) brackets when constructing a dependency tree? > > Ex.: > kaTutiktakashAyaushadha = "a herb that is kaTu, tikta and kashaya" > > Should a dependency tree constructed from this expression look like ... > a. ((((kaTu + tikta)[dvandva] + kashAya)[dvandva]) + aushadha)[...] = "nested" dvandva > or like > b. ((kaTu + tikta + kashAya)[dvandva] + aushadha)[...] > > Any comment is welcome! > > Best regards, Oliver Hellwig > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Mon Nov 25 08:12:10 2013 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 13 08:12:10 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] a river In-Reply-To: <522E7AA2031C421FB117EBFFFA7268AD@TopicA1> Message-ID: <6C5D67CD-5A1F-435E-8288-45791E48C7AE@btinternet.com> It shows the baby K???a being carried across the River Yamun? by Vasudeva, while being protected from the elements by a N?ga. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK On 18 Nov 2013, at 16:20, "TopicA" wrote: > Dear Indologists, > > Some years ago I retrieved a piece a cloth, > with several images on it, probably from the Ramayana or Mahabarata. > > Could some one possibly help me on this issue: which episode is here represented on the cloth? > > > With kind regards, > > A. Hanekuyk > Leiden, the Netherlands > > info at topica.nl > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gcindology at gmail.com Mon Nov 25 08:20:50 2013 From: gcindology at gmail.com (G. Colas) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 13 09:20:50 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] a river In-Reply-To: <6C5D67CD-5A1F-435E-8288-45791E48C7AE@btinternet.com> Message-ID: And the text in Telugu (top line) corresponding to the picture says: vasud?vu?u. ?i?ub?luni sam?tamug? yamun?nadi d??ucu??u?a, "Vasudeva crossing the Yamun? river with the baby boy" G?rard Colas Le 25 nov. 2013 ? 09:12, Valerie J Roebuck a ?crit : > It shows the baby K???a being carried across the River Yamun? by Vasudeva, while being protected from the elements by a N?ga. > > Valerie J Roebuck > Manchester, UK > > On 18 Nov 2013, at 16:20, "TopicA" wrote: > >> Dear Indologists, >> >> Some years ago I retrieved a piece a cloth, >> with several images on it, probably from the Ramayana or Mahabarata. >> >> Could some one possibly help me on this issue: which episode is here represented on the cloth? >> >> >> With kind regards, >> >> A. Hanekuyk >> Leiden, the Netherlands >> >> info at topica.nl >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martin.gansten at pbhome.se Mon Nov 25 20:30:24 2013 From: martin.gansten at pbhome.se (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 13 21:30:24 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Caurapa=C3=B1c=C4=81=C5=9Bik=C4=81?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5293B360.30705@pbhome.se> I should be grateful for any suggestions on where to find a pdf version of the Caurapa?c??ik? (northern or southern recension, or preferably both) in devanagari script, for teaching purposes. Thanks in advance, Martin Gansten From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Nov 25 20:43:07 2013 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 13 15:43:07 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Caurapa=C3=B1c=C4=81=C5=9Bik=C4=81?= In-Reply-To: <5293B360.30705@pbhome.se> Message-ID: Hello Martin, I have attached the so-called Kashmir recension of the Caurapa?c??ik? that contains the Devanagari text. Hope this helps. Madhav Deshpande On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Martin Gansten wrote: > I should be grateful for any suggestions on where to find a pdf version of > the Caurapa?c??ik? (northern or southern recension, or preferably both) in > devanagari script, for teaching purposes. Thanks in advance, > > Martin Gansten > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Bilhana-Pancasika_Kashmir_edn.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2177753 bytes Desc: not available URL: From martin.gansten at pbhome.se Tue Nov 26 08:11:28 2013 From: martin.gansten at pbhome.se (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 13 09:11:28 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Caurapa=C3=B1c=C4=81=C5=9Bik=C4=81?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <529457B0.6070908@pbhome.se> Many thanks to Madhav Deshpande and the 'Kashmiri Bard' who so promptly and kindly provided me with my needs! Martin Gansten From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Nov 26 14:09:12 2013 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 13 15:09:12 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Earliest Buddhist shrine uncovered Message-ID: Earliest Buddhist shrine uncovered http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25088960 Dominik Wujastyk, from Android phone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Tue Nov 26 14:50:13 2013 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 13 20:20:13 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] translation in HIndi/english of Rajaprashasti in Chaturvarga Chintamani Message-ID: I need a translation in Hindi/english of Rajaprashasti in Chaturvarga Chintamani composed by Hemadri. http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbd203 at googlemail.com Tue Nov 26 15:14:47 2013 From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 13 09:14:47 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dvandvas In-Reply-To: <52926AE5.7070704@gmx.de> Message-ID: I had sent this to Oliver a few days ago, but I just realized I did not send it to the entire list. Dear Oliver, The topic is discussed quite thoroughly by K?ty?yana and Pata?jali in the Mah?bh??ya ad P. 2.1.1 (and of course the various sub(sub) commentaries thereon). The discussion is technical of course, and the pros and cons of each mode of analysis are hashed out at length. In the translation of the ?hnika by Joshi and Roodbergen (Pata?jali's Vy?kara?a-Mah?bh??ya Samarth?hnika 1968) the discussion begins on p. 168 with Pata?jali's prelude to V?rtt. 25. The answer to your question, though, is stated plainly in the translators' introduction (p. xvii): "The conclusion that they arrived at is that dvandvas or a bahuvr?hi can be formed of more than two constituent words. Elsewhere a compound is generally formed of two words only." This analysis is also reflected in commentators' glosses. See Scholastic Sanskrit by Tubb and Boose p. 126 for examples. See also the K??ik?v?tti ad P. 2.2.29 c?rthe dvandva? where the gloss of dhava-khadira-pal???? is given as dhava? ca khadira? ca pal??a? ca. Note that the word enekam is continued from 2.2.24 which treats bahuvr?hi compounds and is used to indicate that such compounds can be formed from multiple words not just two as is usually the case by sup sup? etc. All the Best, Victor On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Oliver Hellwig wrote: > Dear list, > > a very basic question about Sanskrit syntax: Are dvandvas, in traditional > Sanskrit grammar, considered to be inherently binary, which means that > dvandvas consisting of n>2 words should be bracketed by (n-1) brackets when > constructing a dependency tree? > > Ex.: > kaTutiktakashAyaushadha = "a herb that is kaTu, tikta and kashaya" > > Should a dependency tree constructed from this expression look like ... > a. ((((kaTu + tikta)[dvandva] + kashAya)[dvandva]) + aushadha)[...] = > "nested" dvandva > or like > b. ((kaTu + tikta + kashAya)[dvandva] + aushadha)[...] > > Any comment is welcome! > > Best regards, Oliver Hellwig > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Tue Nov 26 15:33:48 2013 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 13 16:33:48 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Last minute position in Comparative Philosophy Message-ID: dear Colleagues, (apologies for cross-posting), I would like to bring to your attention a last minute position in Comparative Philosophy in Leiden University. I copy the ad below, but what I'd like to stress is what the Academic Director of the Philosophy Institute told me, namely that--despite what the ad may say-- they are looking for someone with a "specialization in Chinese philosophy and/or Buddhism. Of course some acquaintance with so-called western philosophy would help, but is not necessary. Up till now the vacancy mostly drew historians of western philosophy with an interest in other areas. I?d rather have it the other way around." I, naturally, would prefer someone working on Buddhism to someone doing Chinese philosophy... but that's my personal position, and I have nothing to do with this appointment other than spreading the news (so, don't write to me about it, I can't answer any questions, sorry!). here's the ad: *Assistant Professor in Comparative Philosophy and History of Philosophy* The Faculty of Humanities, vacancy 13-335 *Leiden University Institute of Philosophy* The Leiden University Institute of Philosophy (IPh) is one of seven institutes within the Faculty of Humanities. IPh conducts research in theoretical and practical philosophy, and has recently started to develop a programme in comparative philosophy in cooperation with partners both in Leiden and overseas. Due to new opportunities in the field IPh is seeking to fill, on short notice, the following position for its BA and MA programmes in Leiden and The Hague, to start on 1 January 2014 (negotiable but not later than 1 February 2014): *Assistant Professor in Comparative philosophy and History of Philosophy (0.5 fte)* *Vacancy Number* *: 13-335* *Duties and responsibilities* - Prepare and deliver 3 courses per year for the BA and MA in Philosophy teaching programme, and electives in the BA International Studies in The Hague. - Conduct research in the field of Comparative Philosophy in coordination with the Chair of Comparative Philosophy and Political Thought. - Raise research funding and participate in local and national research projects. - Carry out administrative tasks both within and outside the department. - Collaborate with other staff members involved in teaching and research. - Contribute to services provided to the wider community through the university. *Your profile* - A PhD in philosophy or area relevant to comparative philosophy (including the necessary language skills) and teaching competence in history of philosophy (preferably Ancient, Medieval, and/or Early Modern Philosophy) - Demonstrably good teaching skills and experience - Demonstrable experience in raising external funding for research. - Good communication skills, flexibility, and willingness to work in a team. - An excellent command of English is highly desirable. *What we offer* An inspiring working environment in an exciting faculty consisting of seven institutes, in addition to IPh: Centre for the Arts in Society (LUCAS), Institute for Area Studies (LIAS), Academy of Creative and Performing Arts (ACPA), History (IH), Linguistics (LUCL), and Religious Studies (LIRS). The faculty has some 4,500 students and 900 staff members, and offers 30 BA programmes and 45 MA programmes. Each year the faculty?s Graduate School awards over 50 doctorates to its students. The Institute of Philosophy is located near Leiden?s old city centre. The appointment is for 19 hours per week (0.5 FTE) for a period of two years. Depending on performance, and on the development of teaching and research in the field, both in Leiden and The Hague, opportunities for an extension of the position in time and duration may arise. The position will be classified as that of Assistant Professor 1 or 2 in the University Job Classification (UFO), depending on the candidate?s abilities, knowledge and experience. The salary will depend on the candidate?s education and experience and be a minimum of ?3,259.00 and a maximum of ?5,070.00 (gross) per month on the basis of a full-time working week (in accordance with levels 11-12 of the scale included in the Dutch Universities? Collective Labour Agreement). Leiden University requires faculty members with teaching duties to have a Basic Teaching Qualification (BKO). If the successful candidate does not hold this qualification, *he or she will be expected to fulfill this requirement within a period of time to be agreed, in the event that his or her contract is extended.* *More information* You can obtain further information about this vacancy by contacting Prof.dr. Frans de Haas (Academic Director IPh), by e-mail ( f.a.j.de.haas at phil.leidenuniv.nl). For information about the relevant teaching programmes in Philosophy and International Studies, see: http://www.hum.leiden.edu/education/bachelors-programmes/ba-philosophy.html http://www.hum.leiden.edu/philosophy/students/prospectus/e-prospectus.html, http://hum.leiden.edu/international-studies/. *How to apply* If you are interested in this position, please send your application by e-mail to the secretary Mrs C.W. Sombroek, c.w.sombroek at phil.leidenuniv.nlby *2 December 2013* at the latest. Please indicate the vacancy number. Your application should be accompanied by a CV with a list of publications, a list of courses you have taught, including evaluations, and a research plan (2-3 pages), as well as the names and addresses of three references. Job interviews will take place in the first half of December 2013. The application procedure may include a trial class lecture. -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37 Doelensteeg 16 2311 VL Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Tue Nov 26 23:18:36 2013 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 13 00:18:36 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Dashavatara plus Sanskrit and Devanagari reading practice Message-ID: Dashavatara plus Sanskrit and Devanagari reading practice for students: http://youtu.be/Yr5MeiJUqUo -- Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP, A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. JEMHouben at gmail.com www.jyotistoma.nl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesan at ifpindia.org Wed Nov 27 05:08:46 2013 From: ganesan at ifpindia.org (Dr. T. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 13 10:38:46 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears In-Reply-To: <8D0B52DB565F7C7-EF0-50BB9@webmail-m264.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <52957E5E.4010604@ifpindia.org> On 22-11-2013 05:35, palaniappa at aol.com wrote: > For S'an.kara's views on this issue, see > http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe34/sbe34107.htm > > Ra-ma-nuja also essentially had the same opinion in his commentary. See > http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe48/sbe48137.htm > > /_On the other hand, what is interesting is that for S'ri-vais.n.avas > like Ra-ma-nuja, the S'u-dra saint Namma-l.va-r was/is the foremost > saint._/ Where is such a reference by Ramanuja to Namma-l.va-r in his works ? Nowhere does he make any such reference. It seems only much long after Ramanuja such ideas were incorporated in the propagation of SriVaishnavism. Ganesan > > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Artur Karp > To: patrick mccartney > Cc: indology > Sent: Thu, Nov 21, 2013 7:05 am > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears > > Kane, HISTORY OF THE DHARMA S'A-STRA, VOL. II PART I, p. 82, > Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Poona 1941 > > http://www.srimatham.com/uploads/5/5/4/9/5549439/history_of_dharma_sastras.pdf > > has this: > > > <<...the practice current in the times of the Veda-nta-su-tras that > the S'u-dra is not entitled to study the Veda. > > Gaut. XII.4 went so far as to prescribe:--- > > 'if the s'u-dra intentionally listens for committing to memory the > Veda, then his ears should be filled with (molten) lead and lac; if he > utters the Veda, then his tongue may be cut off; if he has mastered > the Veda his body should be hacked'.>> > > Hoping it's of some help, > > Regards, > Artur Karp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Thu Nov 28 02:00:48 2013 From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 13 21:00:48 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis Message-ID: <8D0B9F4C9D056FB-7E0-8A03D@webmail-m234.sysops.aol.com> Let me address the second part of George Hart's post first. Hart said, "I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not." Unfortunately this is not true. Here is what Hart (1987: 484) said: "A few centuries after the anthologies, an untouchable was not allowed into a Vi??u temple, a practice shown by the exclusion of Tirupp????v?r, a P??a?, from the worship of the god inside the temple proper." (emphasis mine) Another version of the same article available at http://tamilnation.co/caste/hart.pdf shows on page 32 the same statement. In the same article, on page 5, we find the following: "We see, then, that the word pulai carries some opprobrium, and that it is used to refer to several groups that are evidently at the bottom of society?washermen, drummers, bards (P??a?s), a woman who becomes possessed, and the man who officiates at the funeral ceremony. (emphasis mine) Similarly, on page 23, Hart says: "Obviously, the lowercastes themselves felt that the power they dealt with was dangerous and had tobe carefully controlled?hence the plethora of untouchable castes, each with thefitness to do a certain task." (emphasis mine) Hart says on pp. 7-8: ?Two poems, Porunar???uppa?ai 284 and Akam 196 mention that P??a?s would catch fish?one supposes if they were unable to make a living as performers?The performers, at least, lived on the margins of society, and were largelydependent on the largesse of those who were above them. We have yet to considerthe occupation of the performers in detail, but several things are clear: theywere associated with the wilderness, at least to an extent; and in addition toperforming, at least some of them caughtfish?also a low and demeaning occupation.? (emphasis mine) Later in discussingthe impact of Brahmins on the Tamil society, Hart says on pp.36-37: ?The untouchables seem to have become lowerthan they had been before, and to have been surrounded with morerestrictions?no doubt as a result of the fact that king was no longer sodependent upon them (as he now had the Brahmins and their Vedic rites), andthat the small king was no longer as important as he once was, having beenreplaced by the newer gods with their Brahmin attendants. In other words, thefunction of the untouchables nolonger included serving kings?a function that must have enhanced their lowstatus?but was limited to such mundane and undignified tasks as cutting hair,washing clothes, and catching fish.?(emphasis mine) When one sees the above two quotes, it is obvious that Hart is characterizing the P??ar as untouchables. I cannot understand how Hart can say that he never claimed P??a?s were Dalits! Regarding Hart's statement, "Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples," I would appreciate if Hart could provide some historical evidence (other than hagiographies) such as an inscription or traveler statement that point to P??ar being denied entry into temples. As for Hart's statement, "And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them," here is some historical information regarding their social status. Page 1 of the attachment shows an excerpt from the Tanjavur temple inscription of R?jar?ja I of ca. 1014 CE (South Indian Inscriptions, volume 2, no. 66). The amount of share given to different groups indicates how the C??a state valued their services. From the highlighted portions, one can see that each barber received half a share, each washerman received one share, and each P??a? received 1.5 shares. (Singers of Tamil songs and Sanskrit songs too are shown as receiving 1.5 shares each elsewhere in the inscription.) The glossing of P??a? as 'tailor' is a mistake by the editor who has used the late 19th or early 20th century profession of the P??ar. In the inscription, based on the title C?kkai, we have to consider them as Sanskrit theater artists. The highlighted portion of page 2 of the attachment shows a page from Inscriptions in the Pudukkottai State Translated into English, Part 2, by K. R. Srinivasa Ayyar (IPS). It shows that just as in the Classical Tamil period, the P??a? sang the victory of the king at the time of C??a Kul?ttu?ka? III in the beginning of the 13th century and was honored for it. Similarly, the highlighted portion of page 3 of the attachment shows an inscription of Cuntara P??tiya? issued a few years after the C??a inscription. This inscription shows the king giving the C??a crown made of gold to a P??a?. Moreover, the secular text, Kali?kattuppara?i, describes the P??ar performing in the C??a court songs composed by the king. This indicates that the relationship between the P??ar and the kings was almost the same as it was in the Classical Tamil period. Given this situation, it is impossible to accept the low social status of the P??ar as given in the hagiographies. The modern social status of the P??ar is discussed in the book N???r Varal??u (1978) by Prof. M?cas Po??aiy?, former Professor of Tamil at American College, Madurai, who includes them among a number of groups that have become Ve????ar. (See pages 4 and 5 of the attachment. While he is correct with respect to the modern social status of the P??ar, as I said in the earlier post, I disagree with some aspects of the social history he presents.) This is confirmed by pages 6 and 7 of the attachment which present pages from a newspaper of a federation of Ve????ar castes. At the bottom right of page 7 of the attachment one can see an advertisement by the P??ar association. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: George Hart To: Indology List Sent: Sun, Nov 24, 2013 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis In my opinion, the poems speak for themselves. When the Sangam poems say someone was of despised birth and we see the same group among the Dalits today, that must mean they were Dalits then, I would think. It would be very nice if Sangam society was casteless and we could point to it as an exemplar of what India would be like without the Brahmins or whatever group is supposed to have dreamed up the caste system. The fact remains that caste is spread from Nepal to Sri Lanka and from Assam to Pakistan among many ethnic groups and religions. I think it must be very ancient, and almost certainly pre-Aryan, as the Vedic Aryans had nothing whatsoever like the j?ti system. But however that may be, the Sangam poems specifically mention caste many times. No doubt Palaniappan and I will disagree on this forever, but I think it is important to state that I am not at all persuaded by his arguments. I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not. Apparently, they occupied (and still occupy) a position somewhat above the Dalits, as they stayed in the homes of rich people, sang for them, and also served as go-betweens between rich men and their women. And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them. Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples. If the poems don?t mean what they say, then there may not have been caste in Sangam times in TN. If they do, then it is very difficult to argue against the existence of caste, in my opinion. George On Nov 24, 2013, at 12:27 PM, palaniappa at aol.com wrote: I agree completely with Rajam's statement, "There was no indication of "untouchability" in the Tamil society as reflected in early Tamil poems." Since George Hart has criticized my findings in his post, I would like to say that the contents of Hart's post are nothing new. All these have been addressed in my paper available at http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf . We have also discussed this in Indology in 2009. Here are the last two posts of the Indology discussion http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033485.html http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033486.html . So instead of going over material already covered, I shall discuss something I have not discussed so far. I shall summarize the crux of my views briefly at first. Those who are interested in the details can read further. For almost four decades, George Hart has propounded his views on the concept of dangerous sacred power,a?a?ku, among the Tamils and the practice of untouchability that resulted from contact with the sacred power. According to Hart, the P??a?s and Pa?aiya?s have always been the lowest castes because they were polluted because they came in contact with that sacred power. The only problem is that, as I had mentioned in 2009, there is clear epigraphic evidence that the Tamil Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) were not untouchables as late as the 11th century and Tamil P??ar (plural of the P??a?) are not untouchables even today. These facts completely invalidate Hart's theories. The reason Hart came to a conclusion diametrically opposite to mine is that his research methodology had major errors of commission and omission. Those who are interested in more details can read on below. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding the power of a?a?ku, Hart (1975a: 43) wrote: "This power had to be rigidly controlled. As a result, religious rites were carried out by the lowest castes: the Pa?aiya?s , the P??a?s, the Tu?iya?s, and the V?la?s...The V?la?, who is even today found among the Pa?aiya?s of Kerala, would dance ecstatically as he was possessed by Murugan, an indigenous god...The Pa?aiya?, the P??a?, and the Tu?iya? would each play a special instrument which was thought to be inhabited by a sacred power and which was used for various ritual purposes. The pollution which is attached to the low castes is thus a legacy of indigenous Dravidian religion." Hart's views of Tamil untouchability and sacred power are inseparable. And for his whole theory to have any validity, the Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) and the P??ar (plural of the P??a?) he has mentioned above should be untouchables or lowest castes. If even one group is not untouchable, his whole theory collapses. I have already mentioned that the Pa?aiyar were not untouchables in the 11th century. Hart (1975b:144) also says the following in connection with the Pa?aiyar: "Elsewhere, the drum played for the king in the morning is the muracu (Pu?. 61, 397; Ai?. 448) . While there is nowhere any indication of who played the muracu, it is not unlikely that a subcaste of the Pa?aiya?s had that office, especially as one of the modern subdivisions of that caste is called Muracu."2 [emphasis mine] Footnote 2 reads: Edgar T. Thurston, Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Madras, 1909), VI:80 But, as shown in page 1 of the attachment, what Thurston (1909:80) really said was: "At the census, 1891, 348 sub-divisions were returned, of which the following were strongest in point of numbers:- Amma found chiefly in Tanjore and Madura;...; Morasu (drum) in Salem;...". [emphasis mine] While Hart's change of -su to -cu may be understandable in terms of the Tamil transliteration system, the change of the radical vowel -o- to -u-, which changed the name of the Pa?aiyar subdivision matching the word for 'drum' used in the Classical Tamil texts he cited, was problematic. This change could not have been a typographical error since in a later publication Hart (1987: 475) also says: "One of the modern subdivisions of the Pa?aiya? caste is named "Muracu" (Thurston and Rangachari 1909: VI. 80), and it seems possible that this is a very ancient division." [emphasis mine] In light of Hart's suggestion of the possible antiquity of this Pa?aiyar subdivision, there is some interesting information about the Morasu subdivision not mentioned by Hart (1975b) and Hart (1987). As can be seen from the highlighted portion in page 2 of the attachment, Thurston (1909: 81) says the following: "It has been suggested to me that the Morasu Paraiyans, included in the above list are Canarese Holeyas, who have settled in the Tamil country." [emphasis mine] Even more interesting is the situation with respect to the P???r. Hart (1975b: 120) states: "The low status of bards may also be inferred from the fact that several centuries after the anthologies, Tirupp????v?r, who was a P??a? by caste, was considered to be so low that he was not allowed into the temple." (The story of Tirupp????v?r occurs in different medieval Vai??ava hagiographical works such as the ???yirappa?i Guruparampar?prabh?vam. While the Vai??ava hagiographical works depict the P?nar saint Tirupp????v?r as not being allowed to enter the temple, the Periyapur??am, the 12th century ?aiva haigiographical work, portrayed the P??ar saint Tirun?laka??ar as originally standing outside the temple and being brought inside due to intervention by ?iva Himself. In another instance, the brahmin saint Tiru???acampantar is said to have arranged for Tirun?laka?tar to sleep inside another brahmin saint's house.) Hart (1975b: 158) also stated: "The Pa?aiya? is found in Tamilnad, Kerala, and the Kota-speaking areas, while the P??a? is found in modern Kerala and Orissa, and in parts of ancient North India, where P??a meant a low-class bard." (The sources for the above statement were entries 3319 and 3351 in the first edition of Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (1960), which in turn, relied on Tamil Lexicon and A Malayalam and English Dictionary by Gundert for information related to Tamil and Malayalam words respectively.) As one can see, Hart (1975b) had left out any mention of the Tamil P??a? in present day Tamil Nadu. Based on the two statements of Hart quoted above, it seems Hart was not aware of the existence of the P??ar in present day Tamil Nadu. Otherwise, he would not have had to rely on medieval hagiography to ascertain the 'low' status of the P???r. Here lay a fundamental problem with Hart's research approach. He was producing sweeping anthropological conclusions with insufficient knowledge of people he was writing about. All Hart had to do was to turn a few pages in Thurston (1909), which he had anyway consulted in the case of the Pa?aiyar. Thurston (1909) spells P??a? as P????, with the second vowel being long ?. This spelling variation cannot be a reason for disregarding the entry. After all, Tamil Lexicon has entries connecting both variants as given below. ?????? p??a?, n. < ????. [M. p?na.] 1. An ancient class of Tamil bards and minstrels; ????????? ???????. ???????????????? (????. ??. 91). 2. See ??????. (W.) ?????? p????, n. < ??????. Man of the tailor caste; ?????????? ???????? Note that the Tamil Lexicon derives 'P????' from 'P??a?'. The entry in Thurston (1909: 29-42) on the P???? is a long one discussing both the Tamil P???? as well as the Malayalam P????. The entry opens with a very brief discussion of the Tamil P???? while discussion of the Malayalam P???? takes up the bulk of the entry. But it is the brief discussion of the Tamil P???? that Hart should have taken into account. As can be seen in page 3 of the attachment, the entry on the P????s opens with the following statement. "The Tamil P?n?ns are said, in the Census Report, 1901, to be also called M?stris. They are "tailors among Tamils in Madura and Tinnevelly. They employ Br?hmans and Vell?las as pur?hits. Though barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them, they are allowed to enter Hindu temples." Later in the entry, as shown in page 4 of the attachment, in regards to the P????s of Travancore, Thurston (1909: 33) says, "For the following account of the P?n?ns of Travancore, I am indebted to Mr. N. Subramani Aiyar. The word is of Tamil origin, and means a tailor. The title taken by them is Panikkan, the usual honorific appellation of most of the industrial castes of Malabar. They are supposed to be one with the P?n?ns of the Tamil country though much below them in the social scale." As Gundert's dictionary notes, in Southern Tamil usage P??a? could indicate a bard as well as a tailor. ??????? p??a? T. M. (T. ????? = ???? melody). A caste of musicians, actors & players; in So. T. also tailors B., necromancers D. (= ???????????, ?????????????, ??????). ??' ????? ???? ???? prov. ??'???? ??????????????? ???????? Bhr. ? ?????????? V1. a caste of slaves. Based on Tamil Lexicon and Gundert's dictionary, it is clear that P?n?n and P?nan are only variants of the same word. After all, there is no separate entry for P??a?s of Kerala in Thurston (1909). Hart should have investigated if the P?n?n/P?nan, the tailor, and P?n?n/P?nan, the bard, were related in any way. If he had conducted some fieldwork like anthropologists do before writing about different communities, he would have quickly realized that the tailors were from the same community as earlier bards. At least if he had done a careful literature review, he would have gotten the true picture of the P?nans. For instance, the Arumpatavurai commentary for the Cilappatik?ram glosses tu??ak?rar in Cilappatik?ram (5.32) as P??ar. Also, as has been pointed out by Aiyar ([1924] 1999: 109), Travancore king B?lar?ma Varma's Sanskrit work, B?lar?ma Bharatam of the 18th century, presents as a tailor the bard P??apattiran of Madurai mentioned in the opening poem of the 11th Tirumu?ai of the ?aiva canon. Irakavan (1971: 79), a 20th century scholar, stated: "????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ????????????????. ??????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????. ???? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ??????? ????? ????? ????????????. ??? ????. ?????, ?????????? ????????????? ????????????????? ?????, ????????????, ???????????? ????? ????????? ???????? ???????????.???????????? ???? ????? ?????? ???????????????????." Here is a translation of the above quote. "Many wonder if the P??ar caste/lineage exists today. The P??ar caste/lineage has not perished. It exists in the P???iya country even today. Some say that with the disappearance of the lute, the P??ar caste/lineage is ruined too. That is wrong. But people of the P??ar caste/lineage live in small numbers in Maturai, Tirunelv?li, and C?tta?ku?am. Without an occupation, many are engaged in the job of tailoring." I have attached a table from Ludden (1996:123) showing the status of the P??a? in Tirunelveli district in 1823. (See page 5 of the attachment. The date of 1923 shown in the table title should actually be 1823.) One can see that they were small in number but part of the large 'Sudra' category. So were barbers and washermen. None of them was/is an untouchable community. That is why K. K. Pillay (1969: 208), while discussing the use of pulaitti in Classical Tamil texts to refer to the washerwoman, said, "It is not known how the term 'Pulaitti' came to be employed to denote her, because in later times the class of washermen was not identical with that of 'Pulaiyar'." Many of the traditional upper caste Tamil pundits of the 20th century did not distinguish between hagiography and history. For them what the Periyapur??am and the Guruparampar? Prabhavam were presenting was history. They did not see these works as propagandist texts intended to promote a specific ideology. So these Tamil pundits believed that the P??ar were untouchables of earlier Tamil society. These Tamil teachers and especially Tamil teachers in northern Tamil Nadu did not know that Tamil P??ar have continued to exist as a community even today and are suffering no untouchability. Most of these Tamil pundits were not knowledgeable about the reality-based social information available in the inscriptions. For instance, they did not know that the P??ar were engaged in singing in front of the deities in brahminic temples, training the temple women in music, and were given houses and money by royal order to perform these duties. See page 6 of the attachment for a translation of a 12th century inscription in the Tiruvi?aimarut?r temple by Orr (2000: 102). Some scholars in Southern Tamil Nadu like Irakavan (1971:78-79) were sold on the Periyapuranam's promotional view that it was the egalitarian nature of the Bhakti movement that allowed the P??ar to enter temples. (On this score, the Periyapur??am had succeeded in its promotional objective.) They had failed to note that Paripatal 3, a pre-Bhakti-movement Classical Tamil poem, calls Visnu "a good P??a? of lute" in a poem that is full of Vedic and Puranic elements. As part of the poem's adoration of Vi??u, Parip??al 3: 81-86 offers the following praise: "You are the red-eyed one with dark complexion (V?sudeva), the black-eyed and white complexioned one (Sankar?a?a), the golden complexioned one (Pradyumna), the green complexioned one (Aniruddha), the one who dances to the left and right (of cowherd girls), the one who dances with the pot, the one who has the plough, the one who is the lord of cowherds, the one who protects, the one whose nature is not being seen, the one who never leaves the devotee's thought, the one that never dies, the one who rules the world, the poet of ancient texts, the good P???? of lute..." One cannot imagine this if the P??a? were untouchable before the time of Tiru?anacampantar. One can understand the traditional Tamil pundits' ahistorical view given their possibly limited exposure to historiography, anthropology, and comparative linguistics. But one would expect a US scholar with access to Western critical scholarship and other resources at Harvard University, University of Wisconsin-Madison, and University of California, Berkeley to critically explore and evaluate facts. Even after Orr (2000) published the translation of the Tiruvi?aimarut?r inscription shown in the attachment, Hart has not updated his views. The facts that the Tamil Pa?aiyar were not untouchable even until 11th century and the P??ar are not untouchable even today completely invalidate Hart's theories regarding untouchability among ancient Tamils. Moreover, if contact with a?a?ku, the sacred power, caused one to be polluted and become untouchable, T?vantikai, a brahmin woman in the Cilappatikaram, a post-ClassicalTamil epic, who got possessed by C?tta?, danced, and offered oracles would not have been appointed as a priestess by the king in a temple with Vedic sacrificial hall. (See http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2013-November/038692.html) It is ironic that in order to buttress his views Hart is citing Dravidian Etymological Dictionary as if its groupings are true for all time and as if it gives etymological roots. He is incorrect on both counts. (Deriving etymological roots purely based on dictionary entries without considering the philological context can lead to wrong etymologies as in the case of Tamil ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' (DEDR 396), which S. Starostin derives from *??-. See http://tinyurl.com/q64ko6e . But literary and epigraphic data clearly show that ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' should be grouped with DEDR 5157. See http://www.linguist.jussieu.fr/~chevilla/FestSchrift/supa_9d.pdf for the reasons. Hart's discussion of pul as a root is just another example of the same kind of etymologizing.) Dravidian Etymology Dictionary's author, Emeneau, would be the last person to hold such views. A good example of Emeneau's genuine open-minded scholarship can be seen in Emeneau (1988), after the revised Dravidian Etymological Dictionary was published in 1984. In other words, philological, epigraphic, and sociological data clearly refute Hart's theories of sacred power and untouchability among Tamils, which were based on a research approach with fundamental problems. References Emeneau. M. B. 1988. Proto-Dravidian *C- and Its Developments. Journal of the American Oriental Society 108, no. 2: 239--268. Irakavan. A. 1971. Icaiyum Yalum. Tirunelveli: Kalain?? Patippakam. Hart, George L., III. 1975a. Ancient Tamil Literature: Its Scholarly Past and Future. In Essays on South India. Edited by Burton Stein, 41-63. University of Hawaii: The University Press of Hawaii. Hart, George. L., III. 1975b. The Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their Milieu and Their Sanskrit Counterparts. Berkeley: University of California Press. Hart, George L., III. 1987. Early Evidence for Caste in South India. In Dimentions of Social Life: Essays in Honor of David G. Mandelbaum. Edited by Paul Hockings. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter. Ludden, D. E. 1996. Caste Society and Units of Production in Early Modern South India. In Institutions and Economic Change in South Asia: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives. Edited by Burton Stein and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, 105-133. New Delhi: Oxford University Press. Orr, Leslie. 2000. Donors, Daughters, and Devotees of God: Temple Women in Medieval Tamilnadu. New York: Oxford University Press. Pillay, K. K. 1969. A Social History of the Tamils Part I. Madras: University of Madras. Thurston, E. 1909. Castes and Tribes of Southern India. Vol. 6. Madras: Government Press. ----------------------- Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ExhibitsSet3.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1404882 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rajanawab at comcast.net Thu Nov 28 02:32:29 2013 From: rajanawab at comcast.net (Ken Robbins) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 13 21:32:29 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] AFRICANS IN INDIA: FROM SLAVES TO GENERALS AND RULERS Tour & exhibition In-Reply-To: <334686FC-54A4-4F01-A670-93D7548E0FEE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48B7485F-B9BA-478E-A9AD-B204E747B202@comcast.net> > > >> >> >> AFRICANS IN INDIA: FROM SLAVES TO GENERALS AND RULERS > >> AN EXHIBITION AT GEORGE MASON UNIVERSITY MASON HALL DECEMBEr 2-February 4 Monday through Friday > >> TOUR 11 AM THURSDAY 12/5 >> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Kenneth X. Robbins, a curator of the exhibition "Africans in India" and editor of the book "African Elites in India" will conduct a special tour of the exhibit at Mason Hall, George Mason University @ 11AM Thursday December 5. No reservations are required. >>>>> >>>>> East African rulers, prime ministers, generals, and admirals have distinguished themselves in India especially in Bengal, Bijapur, Ahmednagar, Gujarat, the Mughal empire, and the states of Janjira and Sachin. Success was theirs but is also a testimony to the open-mindedness of Indian society. This exhibition uses paintings, photographs, coins, stamps, and documents to tell the unique stories of how enslaved Africans attained the pinnacle of military and political authority on another continent. >>>>> >>>>> This exhibition was held over at the Schomburg Center for Black Culture of the New York Public Library. It will travel to the Museum of African American History (Boston), the DuSable Museum of African American History (Chicago), and the prestigious Indira Gandhi National Center for the Arts (New Delhi). Plans was further venues in THe U.S., Arica, India, and elsewhere are under consideration. For more information, contact Kenneth Robbins at rajanawab at comcast.net or his co-curator Sylviane Diouf at sdiouf at nypl.org >>>>> >>>>> The exhibit, which is open Monday to Friday, will be on display December 2-February 4. Directions to Mason Hall are as follows: >>>>> Take 495 towards Norther Virginia/Fairfax >>>>> Take exit 49 for Interstate 66 West toward Manassas/Front Royal >>>>> Take exit 60 to merge onto VA-123 South/Chain Bridge Road toward Fairfax >>>>> Continue on 123 South >>>>> Turn left onto University Drive >>>>> From University Drive, take the first right onto our campus >>>>> Turn right at the stop sign onto Patriot Circle >>>>> Go straight through another stop sign to stay on Patriot Circle >>>>> At the roundabout, drive 3/4 around to exit onto Mason Pond Drive >>>>> Turn left into the Mason Pond Parking Deck Visitors Entrance >>>>> You may park on the first three levels of the Mason Pond Parking deck. When you exit the parking deck, stay on the left sidewalk in front of the Center for the Arts (Mason Pond will be to the right). You will see Mason Hall ahead of you past a small courtyard. Enter Mason Hall at the ground level and the exhibition will be in the atrium in front of you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clarsha at MCMASTER.CA Thu Nov 28 13:45:09 2013 From: clarsha at MCMASTER.CA (Shayne Clarke) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 13 08:45:09 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] endowed position in Classical Indian Polity and Society, 500BC to 500AD Message-ID: <92C40017-6BF2-459A-8ADF-DC92C36783C7@mcmaster.ca> Dear list members, I bring to your attention a job posting at the University of Alberta. This was posted on another list server (Pre-Modern Japanese Studies: PMJS). I paste the original message below. For all questions related to this, please contact the original poster. Sincerely, Shayne Clarke Department of Religious Studies McMaster University CANADA "M. Adolphson" Nov 27 10:35AM -0700 Dear Colleagues, Let me begin by apologizing. This is not the right forum for this kind of request, but I am hoping that some of you may know scholars in Indian studies who can help us. The Faculty of Arts at the University of Alberta is conducting a search for an endowed position at the rank of associate or full professor in Classical Indian Polity and Society, 500BC to 500AD. We see this as an opportunity for an energetic scholar to build a strong program at the undergraduate and graduate level in an environment with strong interest in Indian culture. The ad can be found via the link below: http://www.careers.ualberta.ca/Competition/A107321998/ Because the position is so specific, we want to make sure that we reach all potential candidates, and it is with this in mind that I write to ask that you pass the ad along to any colleagues you might have in that field. I realize that it has little to do with PMJS, except for being premodern perhaps, but I hope that those of you who may get annoyed will understand the difficulties of getting the word out. Any inquiries can be sent directly to the dean or to me, since I am also on the search committee. Best, Mickey Adolphson Professor, Japanese Cultural Studies Associate Dean, Teaching and Learning Faculty of Arts, University of Alberta 6-33 Humanities Centre University of Alberta Edmonton, AB T6G 2E5 Canada Ph: 780-492-0704 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clarsha at MCMASTER.CA Sat Nov 30 00:48:30 2013 From: clarsha at MCMASTER.CA (Shayne Clarke) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 13 19:48:30 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Bhikkhu Jinananda (Phd SOAS 1953): supervised by Dorothy A. L. Stede Message-ID: Dear list members, I write to thank list members for their responses on and off list regarding the supervisor of Bhikkhu Jinananda at SOAS in 1953. After several e-mails to the Registry at SOAS, it turns out that Jinananda was supervised by Dr. D. Stede. I take this to be Dorothy A. L. Stede, daughter of William Stede, former president of the Pali Text Society. Dorothy seems to have married and taken the name Maskell. She seems to have died in 1956. Thank you for your assistance. Sincerely, Shayne Clarke McMaster University From rajam at earthlink.net Sat Nov 30 03:38:26 2013 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 13 22:38:26 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis Message-ID: <3291894.1385782708023.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I agree with what Palaniappan has said here. George DID write/say that some of those Tamilians (Panan, Paraiyans, ...) were of low caste and untouchables. Quite alright if some westerners trying to study an ancient culture hold their own exotic view but what irks someone like me (who has been studying and researching these old texts for 4+ decades) is that some modern "Tamil enthusiasts" (not proficient in Old Tamil) have been going around like little drummer boys rha-ma-pum-pumming GH's glorious statements and putting down every caste in Tamilnadu, and this behavior is highly insensitive and irritating. As a brahmin, I should feel elated to support these drummer boys' low-caste vs high-caste theory, right? But I don't! George's article (http://tamilnation.co/caste/hart.pdf) is highly insensitive with inaccuracies and loaded with speculations from a non-Tamil westerner's point of view. If people have a question like "Is there a ghost in that tree?" the researcher starts with a sentence, "In that ghost-infested tree ... ." What kind of logic is that? In fact, it would be very hard to review G's article from an objective point of view, especially for a native speaker of Tamil like me. Well, my intent now is not to engage in a war (George and I are good friends) but to point out that articles about a non-native culture can hurt the natives. Could I get away making some stupidly sweeping remark that the First Family are slaves? Or, could I question the belief of the immacculate conception? While that is the case, why is it so easy for non-natives to speculate and concoct exotic stupid theories about other cultures -- money? power? arrogance? obnoxiousness? G's articles make me feel like a 'walking virus box' loaded with dangerous sacred power! Please know that men are also "impure" from a woman's perspective. Thanks and regards, Rajam -----Original Message----- >From: palaniappa at aol.com >Sent: Nov 27, 2013 6:00 PM >To: indology at list.indology.info >Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Let me address the second part of George Hart's post first. > > >Hart said, "I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not." Unfortunately this is not true. Here is what Hart (1987: 484) said: >"A few centuries after the anthologies, an untouchable was not allowed into a Vi??u temple, a practice shown by the exclusion of Tirupp????v?r, a P??a?, from the worship of the god inside the temple proper." (emphasis mine) > > >Another version of the same article available at http://tamilnation.co/caste/hart.pdf shows on page 32 the same statement. In the same article, on page 5, we find the following: > > > >"We see, then, that the word pulai carries some opprobrium, and that it is used to refer to several groups that are evidently at the bottom of society?washermen, drummers, bards (P??a?s), a woman who becomes possessed, and the man who officiates at the funeral ceremony. (emphasis mine) > > > >Similarly, on page 23, Hart says: >"Obviously, the lowercastes themselves felt that the power they dealt with was dangerous and had tobe carefully controlled?hence the plethora of untouchable castes, each with thefitness to do a certain task." (emphasis mine) > > > > >Hart says on pp. 7-8: >?Two poems, Porunar???uppa?ai 284 and Akam 196 mention that P??a?s would catch fish?one supposes if they were unable to make a living as performers?The performers, at least, lived on the margins of society, and were largelydependent on the largesse of those who were above them. We have yet to considerthe occupation of the performers in detail, but several things are clear: theywere associated with the wilderness, at least to an extent; and in addition toperforming, at least some of them caughtfish?also a low and demeaning occupation.? (emphasis mine) > >Later in discussingthe impact of Brahmins on the Tamil society, Hart says on pp.36-37: >?The untouchables seem to have become lowerthan they had been before, and to have been surrounded with morerestrictions?no doubt as a result of the fact that king was no longer sodependent upon them (as he now had the Brahmins and their Vedic rites), andthat the small king was no longer as important as he once was, having beenreplaced by the newer gods with their Brahmin attendants. In other words, thefunction of the untouchables nolonger included serving kings?a function that must have enhanced their lowstatus?but was limited to such mundane and undignified tasks as cutting hair,washing clothes, and catching fish.?(emphasis mine) > > > >When one sees the above two quotes, it is obvious that Hart is characterizing the P??ar as untouchables. I cannot understand how Hart can say that he never claimed P??a?s were Dalits! > > > > > >Regarding Hart's statement, "Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples," I would appreciate if Hart could provide some historical evidence (other than hagiographies) such as an inscription or traveler statement that point to P??ar being denied entry into temples. > > > >As for Hart's statement, "And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them," here is some historical information regarding their social status. Page 1 of the attachment shows an excerpt from the Tanjavur temple inscription of R?jar?ja I of ca. 1014 CE (South Indian Inscriptions, volume 2, no. 66). The amount of share given to different groups indicates how the C??a state valued their services. From the highlighted portions, one can see that each barber received half a share, each washerman received one share, and each P??a? received 1.5 shares. (Singers of Tamil songs and Sanskrit songs too are shown as receiving 1.5 shares each elsewhere in the inscription.) The glossing of P??a? as 'tailor' is a mistake by the editor who has used the late 19th or early 20th century profession of the P??ar. In the inscription, based on the title C?kkai, we have to consider them as Sanskrit theater artists. The highlighted portion of page 2 of the attachment shows a page from Inscriptions in the Pudukkottai State Translated into English, Part 2, by K. R. Srinivasa Ayyar (IPS). It shows that just as in the Classical Tamil period, the P??a? sang the victory of the king at the time of C??a Kul?ttu?ka? III in the beginning of the 13th century and was honored for it. Similarly, the highlighted portion of page 3 of the attachment shows an inscription of Cuntara P??tiya? issued a few years after the C??a inscription. This inscription shows the king giving the C??a crown made of gold to a P??a?. Moreover, the secular text, Kali?kattuppara?i, describes the P??ar performing in the C??a court songs composed by the king. This indicates that the relationship between the P??ar and the kings was almost the same as it was in the Classical Tamil period. Given this situation, it is impossible to accept the low social status of the P??ar as given in the hagiographies. > >The modern social status of the P??ar is discussed in the book N???r Varal??u (1978) by Prof. M?cas Po??aiy?, former Professor of Tamil at American College, Madurai, who includes them among a number of groups that have become Ve????ar. (See pages 4 and 5 of the attachment. While he is correct with respect to the modern social status of the P??ar, as I said in the earlier post, I disagree with some aspects of the social history he presents.) This is confirmed by pages 6 and 7 of the attachment which present pages from a newspaper of a federation of Ve????ar castes. At the bottom right of page 7 of the attachment one can see an advertisement by the P??ar association. > > > > > >Regards, >Palaniappan > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: George Hart >To: Indology List >Sent: Sun, Nov 24, 2013 4:16 pm >Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis > > >In my opinion, the poems speak for themselves. When the Sangam poems say someone was of despised birth and we see the same group among the Dalits today, that must mean they were Dalits then, I would think. It would be very nice if Sangam society was casteless and we could point to it as an exemplar of what India would be like without the Brahmins or whatever group is supposed to have dreamed up the caste system. The fact remains that caste is spread from Nepal to Sri Lanka and from Assam to Pakistan among many ethnic groups and religions. I think it must be very ancient, and almost certainly pre-Aryan, as the Vedic Aryans had nothing whatsoever like the j?ti system. But however that may be, the Sangam poems specifically mention caste many times. No doubt Palaniappan and I will disagree on this forever, but I think it is important to state that I am not at all persuaded by his arguments. > > >I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not. Apparently, they occupied (and still occupy) a position somewhat above the Dalits, as they stayed in the homes of rich people, sang for them, and also served as go-betweens between rich men and their women. And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them. Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples. > > >If the poems don?t mean what they say, then there may not have been caste in Sangam times in TN. If they do, then it is very difficult to argue against the existence of caste, in my opinion. > > > > >George > > > >On Nov 24, 2013, at 12:27 PM, palaniappa at aol.com wrote: > > > > > >I agree completely with Rajam's statement, "There was no indication of "untouchability" in the Tamil society as reflected in early Tamil poems." > > > > > > > > > >Since George Hart has criticized my findings in his post, I would like to say that the contents of Hart's post are nothing new. All these have been addressed in my paper available at http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf . We have also discussed this in Indology in 2009. Here are the last two posts of the Indology discussion http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033485.html > >http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033486.html . >So instead of going over material already covered, I shall discuss something I have not discussed so far. I shall summarize the crux of my views briefly at first. Those who are interested in the details can read further. > > > >For almost four decades, George Hart has propounded his views on the concept of dangerous sacred power,a?a?ku, among the Tamils and the practice of untouchability that resulted from contact with the sacred power. According to Hart, the P??a?s and Pa?aiya?s have always been the lowest castes because they were polluted because they came in contact with that sacred power. The only problem is that, as I had mentioned in 2009, there is clear epigraphic evidence that the Tamil Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) were not untouchables as late as the 11th century and Tamil P??ar (plural of the P??a?) are not untouchables even today. These facts completely invalidate Hart's theories. The reason Hart came to a conclusion diametrically opposite to mine is that his research methodology had major errors of commission and omission. > > > >Those who are interested in more details can read on below. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Regarding the power of a?a?ku, Hart (1975a: 43) wrote: > >"This power had to be rigidly controlled. As a result, religious rites were carried out by the lowest castes: the Pa?aiya?s , the P??a?s, the Tu?iya?s, and the V?la?s...The V?la?, who is even today found among the Pa?aiya?s of Kerala, would dance ecstatically as he was possessed by Murugan, an indigenous god...The Pa?aiya?, the P??a?, and the Tu?iya? would each play a special instrument which was thought to be inhabited by a sacred power and which was used for various ritual purposes. The pollution which is attached to the low castes is thus a legacy of indigenous Dravidian religion." > >Hart's views of Tamil untouchability and sacred power are inseparable. And for his whole theory to have any validity, the Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) and the P??ar (plural of the P??a?) he has mentioned above should be untouchables or lowest castes. If even one group is not untouchable, his whole theory collapses. I have already mentioned that the Pa?aiyar were not untouchables in the 11th century. > > > >Hart (1975b:144) also says the following in connection with the Pa?aiyar: >"Elsewhere, the drum played for the king in the morning is the muracu (Pu?. 61, 397; Ai?. 448) . While there is nowhere any indication of who played the muracu, it is not unlikely that a subcaste of the Pa?aiya?s had that office, especially as one of the modern subdivisions of that caste is called Muracu."2 [emphasis mine] > > > >Footnote 2 reads: >Edgar T. Thurston, Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Madras, 1909), VI:80 > > > >But, as shown in page 1 of the attachment, what Thurston (1909:80) really said was: > >"At the census, 1891, 348 sub-divisions were returned, of which the following were strongest in point of numbers:- Amma found chiefly in Tanjore and Madura;...; Morasu (drum) in Salem;...". [emphasis mine] > >While Hart's change of -su to -cu may be understandable in terms of the Tamil transliteration system, the change of the radical vowel -o- to -u-, which changed the name of the Pa?aiyar subdivision matching the word for 'drum' used in the Classical Tamil texts he cited, was problematic. This change could not have been a typographical error since in a later publication Hart (1987: 475) also says: > > >"One of the modern subdivisions of the Pa?aiya? caste is named "Muracu" (Thurston and Rangachari 1909: VI. 80), and it seems possible that this is a very ancient division." [emphasis mine] > >In light of Hart's suggestion of the possible antiquity of this Pa?aiyar subdivision, there is some interesting information about the Morasu subdivision not mentioned by Hart (1975b) and Hart (1987). As can be seen from the highlighted portion in page 2 of the attachment, Thurston (1909: 81) says the following: > > > >"It has been suggested to me that the Morasu Paraiyans, included in the above list are Canarese Holeyas, who have settled in the Tamil country." [emphasis mine] > > > >Even more interesting is the situation with respect to the P???r. Hart (1975b: 120) states: > >"The low status of bards may also be inferred from the fact that several centuries after the anthologies, Tirupp????v?r, who was a P??a? by caste, was considered to be so low that he was not allowed into the temple." > > > >(The story of Tirupp????v?r occurs in different medieval Vai??ava hagiographical works such as the ???yirappa?i Guruparampar?prabh?vam. While the Vai??ava hagiographical works depict the P?nar saint Tirupp????v?r as not being allowed to enter the temple, the Periyapur??am, the 12th century ?aiva haigiographical work, portrayed the P??ar saint Tirun?laka??ar as originally standing outside the temple and being brought inside due to intervention by ?iva Himself. In another instance, the brahmin saint Tiru???acampantar is said to have arranged for Tirun?laka?tar to sleep inside another brahmin saint's house.) > > >Hart (1975b: 158) also stated: > > > >"The Pa?aiya? is found in Tamilnad, Kerala, and the Kota-speaking areas, while the P??a? is found in modern Kerala and Orissa, and in parts of ancient North India, where P??a meant a low-class bard." > > > >(The sources for the above statement were entries 3319 and 3351 in the first edition of Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (1960), which in turn, relied on Tamil Lexicon and A Malayalam and English Dictionary by Gundert for information related to Tamil and Malayalam words respectively.) > > > >As one can see, Hart (1975b) had left out any mention of the Tamil P??a? in present day Tamil Nadu. Based on the two statements of Hart quoted above, it seems Hart was not aware of the existence of the P??ar in present day Tamil Nadu. Otherwise, he would not have had to rely on medieval hagiography to ascertain the 'low' status of the P???r. Here lay a fundamental problem with Hart's research approach. He was producing sweeping anthropological conclusions with insufficient knowledge of people he was writing about. > > > >All Hart had to do was to turn a few pages in Thurston (1909), which he had anyway consulted in the case of the Pa?aiyar. Thurston (1909) spells P??a? as P????, with the second vowel being long ?. This spelling variation cannot be a reason for disregarding the entry. After all, Tamil Lexicon has entries connecting both variants as given below. > > > >?????? p??a?, n. < ????. [M. p?na.] 1. An ancient class of Tamil bards and minstrels; ????????? ???????. ???????????????? (????. ??. 91). 2. See ??????. (W.) > > > >?????? p????, n. < ??????. Man of the tailor caste; ?????????? ???????? > > > >Note that the Tamil Lexicon derives 'P????' from 'P??a?'. > > > >The entry in Thurston (1909: 29-42) on the P???? is a long one discussing both the Tamil P???? as well as the Malayalam P????. The entry opens with a very brief discussion of the Tamil P???? while discussion of the Malayalam P???? takes up the bulk of the entry. But it is the brief discussion of the Tamil P???? that Hart should have taken into account. > > > >As can be seen in page 3 of the attachment, the entry on the P????s opens with the following statement. "The Tamil P?n?ns are said, in the Census Report, 1901, to be also called M?stris. They are "tailors among Tamils in Madura and Tinnevelly. They employ Br?hmans and Vell?las as pur?hits. Though barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them, they are allowed to enter Hindu temples." Later in the entry, as shown in page 4 of the attachment, in regards to the P????s of Travancore, Thurston (1909: 33) says, "For the following account of the P?n?ns of Travancore, I am indebted to Mr. N. Subramani Aiyar. The word is of Tamil origin, and means a tailor. The title taken by them is Panikkan, the usual honorific appellation of most of the industrial castes of Malabar. They are supposed to be one with the P?n?ns of the Tamil country though much below them in the social scale." > > > >As Gundert's dictionary notes, in Southern Tamil usage P??a? could indicate a bard as well as a tailor. > >??????? p??a? T. M. (T. ????? = ???? melody). A caste of musicians, actors & players; in So. T. also tailors B., necromancers D. (= ???????????, ?????????????, ??????). ??' ????? ???? ???? prov. ??'???? ??????????????? ???????? Bhr. ? ?????????? V1. a caste of slaves. > > > >Based on Tamil Lexicon and Gundert's dictionary, it is clear that P?n?n and P?nan are only variants of the same word. After all, there is no separate entry for P??a?s of Kerala in Thurston (1909). Hart should have investigated if the P?n?n/P?nan, the tailor, and P?n?n/P?nan, the bard, were related in any way. If he had conducted some fieldwork like anthropologists do before writing about different communities, he would have quickly realized that the tailors were from the same community as earlier bards. At least if he had done a careful literature review, he would have gotten the true picture of the P?nans. > > > >For instance, the Arumpatavurai commentary for the Cilappatik?ram glosses tu??ak?rar in Cilappatik?ram (5.32) as P??ar. Also, as has been pointed out by Aiyar ([1924] 1999: 109), Travancore king B?lar?ma Varma's Sanskrit work, B?lar?ma Bharatam of the 18th century, presents as a tailor the bard P??apattiran of Madurai mentioned in the opening poem of the 11th Tirumu?ai of the ?aiva canon. Irakavan (1971: 79), a 20th century scholar, stated: > > > >"????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ????????????????. ??????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????. ???? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ??????? ????? ????? ????????????. ??? ????. ?????, ?????????? ????????????? ????????????????? ?????, ????????????, ???????????? ????? ????????? ???????? ???????????.???????????? ???? ????? ?????? ???????????????????." > > > >Here is a translation of the above quote. > >"Many wonder if the P??ar caste/lineage exists today. The P??ar caste/lineage has not perished. It exists in the P???iya country even today. Some say that with the disappearance of the lute, the P??ar caste/lineage is ruined too. That is wrong. But people of the P??ar caste/lineage live in small numbers in Maturai, Tirunelv?li, and C?tta?ku?am. Without an occupation, many are engaged in the job of tailoring." > > >I have attached a table from Ludden (1996:123) showing the status of the P??a? in Tirunelveli district in 1823. (See page 5 of the attachment. The date of 1923 shown in the table title should actually be 1823.) One can see that they were small in number but part of the large 'Sudra' category. So were barbers and washermen. None of them was/is an untouchable community. That is why K. K. Pillay (1969: 208), while discussing the use of pulaitti in Classical Tamil texts to refer to the washerwoman, said, "It is not known how the term 'Pulaitti' came to be employed to denote her, because in later times the class of washermen was not identical with that of 'Pulaiyar'." > > > >Many of the traditional upper caste Tamil pundits of the 20th century did not distinguish between hagiography and history. For them what the Periyapur??am and the Guruparampar? Prabhavam were presenting was history. They did not see these works as propagandist texts intended to promote a specific ideology. So these Tamil pundits believed that the P??ar were untouchables of earlier Tamil society. These Tamil teachers and especially Tamil teachers in northern Tamil Nadu did not know that Tamil P??ar have continued to exist as a community even today and are suffering no untouchability. > > >Most of these Tamil pundits were not knowledgeable about the reality-based social information available in the inscriptions. For instance, they did not know that the P??ar were engaged in singing in front of the deities in brahminic temples, training the temple women in music, and were given houses and money by royal order to perform these duties. See page 6 of the attachment for a translation of a 12th century inscription in the Tiruvi?aimarut?r temple by Orr (2000: 102). > > >Some scholars in Southern Tamil Nadu like Irakavan (1971:78-79) were sold on the Periyapuranam's promotional view that it was the egalitarian nature of the Bhakti movement that allowed the P??ar to enter temples. (On this score, the Periyapur??am had succeeded in its promotional objective.) They had failed to note that Paripatal 3, a pre-Bhakti-movement Classical Tamil poem, calls Visnu "a good P??a? of lute" in a poem that is full of Vedic and Puranic elements. As part of the poem's adoration of Vi??u, Parip??al 3: 81-86 offers the following praise: > > > > > > > >"You are the red-eyed one with dark complexion (V?sudeva), the black-eyed and white complexioned one (Sankar?a?a), the golden complexioned one (Pradyumna), the green complexioned one (Aniruddha), the one who dances to the left and right (of cowherd girls), the one who dances with the pot, the one who has the plough, the one who is the lord of cowherds, the one who protects, the one whose nature is not being seen, the one who never leaves the devotee's thought, the one that never dies, the one who rules the world, the poet of ancient texts, the good P???? of lute..." > > > > > > > >One cannot imagine this if the P??a? were untouchable before the time of Tiru?anacampantar. > > > >One can understand the traditional Tamil pundits' ahistorical view given their possibly limited exposure to historiography, anthropology, and comparative linguistics. But one would expect a US scholar with access to Western critical scholarship and other resources at Harvard University, University of Wisconsin-Madison, and University of California, Berkeley to critically explore and evaluate facts. Even after Orr (2000) published the translation of the Tiruvi?aimarut?r inscription shown in the attachment, Hart has not updated his views. > > > >The facts that the Tamil Pa?aiyar were not untouchable even until 11th century and the P??ar are not untouchable even today completely invalidate Hart's theories regarding untouchability among ancient Tamils. > > > > > > >Moreover, if contact with a?a?ku, the sacred power, caused one to be polluted and become untouchable, T?vantikai, a brahmin woman in the Cilappatikaram, a post-ClassicalTamil epic, who got possessed by C?tta?, danced, and offered oracles would not have been appointed as a priestess by the king in a temple with Vedic sacrificial hall. (See http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2013-November/038692.html) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >It is ironic that in order to buttress his views Hart is citing Dravidian Etymological Dictionary as if its groupings are true for all time and as if it gives etymological roots. He is incorrect on both counts. (Deriving etymological roots purely based on dictionary entries without considering the philological context can lead to wrong etymologies as in the case of Tamil ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' (DEDR 396), which S. Starostin derives from *??-. See http://tinyurl.com/q64ko6e . But literary and epigraphic data clearly show that ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' should be grouped with DEDR 5157. See http://www.linguist.jussieu.fr/~chevilla/FestSchrift/supa_9d.pdf for the reasons. Hart's discussion of pul as a root is just another example of the same kind of etymologizing.) Dravidian Etymology Dictionary's author, Emeneau, would be the last person to hold such views. A good example of Emeneau's genuine open-minded scholarship can be seen in Emeneau (1988), after the revised Dravidian Etymological Dictionary was published in 1984. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >In other words, philological, epigraphic, and sociological data clearly refute Hart's theories of sacred power and untouchability among Tamils, which were based on a research approach with fundamental problems. > > > > > >References > > > > > > >Emeneau. M. B. 1988. Proto-Dravidian *C- and Its Developments. Journal of the American Oriental Society 108, no. 2: 239--268. > > > >Irakavan. A. 1971. Icaiyum Yalum. Tirunelveli: Kalain?? Patippakam. > > > >Hart, George L., III. 1975a. Ancient Tamil Literature: Its Scholarly Past and Future. In Essays on South India. Edited by Burton Stein, 41-63. University of Hawaii: The University Press of Hawaii. > > > >Hart, George. L., III. 1975b. The Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their Milieu and Their Sanskrit Counterparts. Berkeley: University of California Press. > > >Hart, George L., III. 1987. Early Evidence for Caste in South India. In Dimentions of Social Life: Essays in Honor of David G. Mandelbaum. Edited by Paul Hockings. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter. > > > >Ludden, D. E. 1996. Caste Society and Units of Production in Early Modern South India. In > >Institutions and Economic Change in South Asia: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives. Edited by Burton Stein and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, 105-133. New Delhi: Oxford University Press. > > > >Orr, Leslie. 2000. Donors, Daughters, and Devotees of God: Temple Women in Medieval Tamilnadu. New York: Oxford University Press. > > > >Pillay, K. K. 1969. A Social History of the Tamils Part I. Madras: University of Madras. > > > > >Thurston, E. 1909. Castes and Tribes of Southern India. Vol. 6. Madras: Government Press. > >----------------------- > > > >Regards, >Palaniappan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From glhart at berkeley.edu Sat Nov 30 04:26:25 2013 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 13 20:26:25 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis In-Reply-To: <3291894.1385782708023.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <12998ADD-E167-4A2A-96FF-5DD861714C47@berkeley.edu> Thanks, Rajam, for giving a link to my article. I hope people will read it and consider it ? perhaps so much controversy can stimulate some more research. As for the article, I really don?t think it says anything that is not generally known by anthropologists who study South India. I was recently speaking to a social worker in Haryana (an Indian, not a westerner) who was perplexed that women who had given birth are severely segregated and are not given access to medical care because of superstitious beliefs (flow of blood). She said sometimes these women die, and that it very difficult to change the villagers? mentality and overcome their very strongly held beliefs. The customs regarding widows are well-known, and suttee is mentioned in Sangam literature. It is my contention that unenlightened beliefs that result in the exploitation and mistreatment of women and others need to be understood if there is to be any chance of changing those beliefs and the conduct they result in. Unfortunately, this is very difficult, not only in India but elsewhere. Belief systems can be quite toxic for people caught up in them. There are endless examples of this all over the world, including the US. George On Nov 29, 2013, at 7:38 PM, rajam wrote: > I agree with what Palaniappan has said here. George DID write/say that some of those Tamilians (Panan, Paraiyans, ...) were of low caste and untouchables. Quite alright if some westerners trying to study an ancient culture hold their own exotic view but what irks someone like me (who has been studying and researching these old texts for 4+ decades) is that some modern "Tamil enthusiasts" (not proficient in Old Tamil) have been going around like little drummer boys rha-ma-pum-pumming GH's glorious statements and putting down every caste in Tamilnadu, and this behavior is highly insensitive and irritating. As a brahmin, I should feel elated to support these drummer boys' low-caste vs high-caste theory, right? But I don't! George's article (http://tamilnation.co/caste/hart.pdf) is highly insensitive with inaccuracies and loaded with speculations from a non-Tamil westerner's point of view. If people have a question like "Is there a ghost in that tree?" the researcher starts with a sentence, "In that ghost-infested tree ... ." What kind of logic is that? In fact, it would be very hard to review G's article from an objective point of view, especially for a native speaker of Tamil like me. Well, my intent now is not to engage in a war (George and I are good friends) but to point out that articles about a non-native culture can hurt the natives. Could I get away making some stupidly sweeping remark that the First Family are slaves? Or, could I question the belief of the immacculate conception? While that is the case, why is it so easy for non-natives to speculate and concoct exotic stupid theories about other cultures -- money? power? arrogance? obnoxiousness? G's articles make me feel like a 'walking virus box' loaded with dangerous sacred power! Please know that men are also "impure" from a woman's perspective. > > Thanks and regards, > Rajam > > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: palaniappa at aol.com >> Sent: Nov 27, 2013 6:00 PM >> To: indology at list.indology.info >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let me address the second part of George Hart's post first. >> >> >> Hart said, "I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not." Unfortunately this is not true. Here is what Hart (1987: 484) said: >> "A few centuries after the anthologies, an untouchable was not allowed into a Vi??u temple, a practice shown by the exclusion of Tirupp????v?r, a P??a?, from the worship of the god inside the temple proper." (emphasis mine) >> >> >> Another version of the same article available at http://tamilnation.co/caste/hart.pdf shows on page 32 the same statement. In the same article, on page 5, we find the following: >> >> >> >> "We see, then, that the word pulai carries some opprobrium, and that it is used to refer to several groups that are evidently at the bottom of society?washermen, drummers, bards (P??a?s), a woman who becomes possessed, and the man who officiates at the funeral ceremony. (emphasis mine) >> >> >> >> Similarly, on page 23, Hart says: >> "Obviously, the lowercastes themselves felt that the power they dealt with was dangerous and had tobe carefully controlled?hence the plethora of untouchable castes, each with thefitness to do a certain task." (emphasis mine) >> >> >> >> >> Hart says on pp. 7-8: >> ?Two poems, Porunar???uppa?ai 284 and Akam 196 mention that P??a?s would catch fish?one supposes if they were unable to make a living as performers?The performers, at least, lived on the margins of society, and were largelydependent on the largesse of those who were above them. We have yet to considerthe occupation of the performers in detail, but several things are clear: theywere associated with the wilderness, at least to an extent; and in addition toperforming, at least some of them caughtfish?also a low and demeaning occupation.? (emphasis mine) >> >> Later in discussingthe impact of Brahmins on the Tamil society, Hart says on pp.36-37: >> ?The untouchables seem to have become lowerthan they had been before, and to have been surrounded with morerestrictions?no doubt as a result of the fact that king was no longer sodependent upon them (as he now had the Brahmins and their Vedic rites), andthat the small king was no longer as important as he once was, having beenreplaced by the newer gods with their Brahmin attendants. In other words, thefunction of the untouchables nolonger included serving kings?a function that must have enhanced their lowstatus?but was limited to such mundane and undignified tasks as cutting hair,washing clothes, and catching fish.?(emphasis mine) >> >> >> >> When one sees the above two quotes, it is obvious that Hart is characterizing the P??ar as untouchables. I cannot understand how Hart can say that he never claimed P??a?s were Dalits! >> >> >> >> >> >> Regarding Hart's statement, "Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples," I would appreciate if Hart could provide some historical evidence (other than hagiographies) such as an inscription or traveler statement that point to P??ar being denied entry into temples. >> >> >> >> As for Hart's statement, "And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them," here is some historical information regarding their social status. Page 1 of the attachment shows an excerpt from the Tanjavur temple inscription of R?jar?ja I of ca. 1014 CE (South Indian Inscriptions, volume 2, no. 66). The amount of share given to different groups indicates how the C??a state valued their services. From the highlighted portions, one can see that each barber received half a share, each washerman received one share, and each P??a? received 1.5 shares. (Singers of Tamil songs and Sanskrit songs too are shown as receiving 1.5 shares each elsewhere in the inscription.) The glossing of P??a? as 'tailor' is a mistake by the editor who has used the late 19th or early 20th century profession of the P??ar. In the inscription, based on the title C?kkai, we have to consider them as Sanskrit theater artists. The highlighted portion of page 2 of the attachment shows a page from Inscriptions in the Pudukkottai State Translated into English, Part 2, by K. R. Srinivasa Ayyar (IPS). It shows that just as in the Classical Tamil period, the P??a? sang the victory of the king at the time of C??a Kul?ttu?ka? III in the beginning of the 13th century and was honored for it. Similarly, the highlighted portion of page 3 of the attachment shows an inscription of Cuntara P??tiya? issued a few years after the C??a inscription. This inscription shows the king giving the C??a crown made of gold to a P??a?. Moreover, the secular text, Kali?kattuppara?i, describes the P??ar performing in the C??a court songs composed by the king. This indicates that the relationship between the P??ar and the kings was almost the same as it was in the Classical Tamil period. Given this situation, it is impossible to accept the low social status of the P??ar as given in the hagiographies. >> >> The modern social status of the P??ar is discussed in the book N???r Varal??u (1978) by Prof. M?cas Po??aiy?, former Professor of Tamil at American College, Madurai, who includes them among a number of groups that have become Ve????ar. (See pages 4 and 5 of the attachment. While he is correct with respect to the modern social status of the P??ar, as I said in the earlier post, I disagree with some aspects of the social history he presents.) This is confirmed by pages 6 and 7 of the attachment which present pages from a newspaper of a federation of Ve????ar castes. At the bottom right of page 7 of the attachment one can see an advertisement by the P??ar association. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: George Hart >> To: Indology List >> Sent: Sun, Nov 24, 2013 4:16 pm >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis >> >> >> In my opinion, the poems speak for themselves. When the Sangam poems say someone was of despised birth and we see the same group among the Dalits today, that must mean they were Dalits then, I would think. It would be very nice if Sangam society was casteless and we could point to it as an exemplar of what India would be like without the Brahmins or whatever group is supposed to have dreamed up the caste system. The fact remains that caste is spread from Nepal to Sri Lanka and from Assam to Pakistan among many ethnic groups and religions. I think it must be very ancient, and almost certainly pre-Aryan, as the Vedic Aryans had nothing whatsoever like the j?ti system. But however that may be, the Sangam poems specifically mention caste many times. No doubt Palaniappan and I will disagree on this forever, but I think it is important to state that I am not at all persuaded by his arguments. >> >> >> I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not. Apparently, they occupied (and still occupy) a position somewhat above the Dalits, as they stayed in the homes of rich people, sang for them, and also served as go-betweens between rich men and their women. And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them. Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples. >> >> >> If the poems don?t mean what they say, then there may not have been caste in Sangam times in TN. If they do, then it is very difficult to argue against the existence of caste, in my opinion. >> >> >> >> >> George >> >> >> >> On Nov 24, 2013, at 12:27 PM, palaniappa at aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I agree completely with Rajam's statement, "There was no indication of "untouchability" in the Tamil society as reflected in early Tamil poems." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Since George Hart has criticized my findings in his post, I would like to say that the contents of Hart's post are nothing new. All these have been addressed in my paper available at http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf . We have also discussed this in Indology in 2009. Here are the last two posts of the Indology discussion http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033485.html >> >> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033486.html . >> So instead of going over material already covered, I shall discuss something I have not discussed so far. I shall summarize the crux of my views briefly at first. Those who are interested in the details can read further. >> >> >> >> For almost four decades, George Hart has propounded his views on the concept of dangerous sacred power,a?a?ku, among the Tamils and the practice of untouchability that resulted from contact with the sacred power. According to Hart, the P??a?s and Pa?aiya?s have always been the lowest castes because they were polluted because they came in contact with that sacred power. The only problem is that, as I had mentioned in 2009, there is clear epigraphic evidence that the Tamil Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) were not untouchables as late as the 11th century and Tamil P??ar (plural of the P??a?) are not untouchables even today. These facts completely invalidate Hart's theories. The reason Hart came to a conclusion diametrically opposite to mine is that his research methodology had major errors of commission and omission. >> >> >> >> Those who are interested in more details can read on below. >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Regarding the power of a?a?ku, Hart (1975a: 43) wrote: >> >> "This power had to be rigidly controlled. As a result, religious rites were carried out by the lowest castes: the Pa?aiya?s , the P??a?s, the Tu?iya?s, and the V?la?s...The V?la?, who is even today found among the Pa?aiya?s of Kerala, would dance ecstatically as he was possessed by Murugan, an indigenous god...The Pa?aiya?, the P??a?, and the Tu?iya? would each play a special instrument which was thought to be inhabited by a sacred power and which was used for various ritual purposes. The pollution which is attached to the low castes is thus a legacy of indigenous Dravidian religion." >> >> Hart's views of Tamil untouchability and sacred power are inseparable. And for his whole theory to have any validity, the Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) and the P??ar (plural of the P??a?) he has mentioned above should be untouchables or lowest castes. If even one group is not untouchable, his whole theory collapses. I have already mentioned that the Pa?aiyar were not untouchables in the 11th century. >> >> >> >> Hart (1975b:144) also says the following in connection with the Pa?aiyar: >> "Elsewhere, the drum played for the king in the morning is the muracu (Pu?. 61, 397; Ai?. 448) . While there is nowhere any indication of who played the muracu, it is not unlikely that a subcaste of the Pa?aiya?s had that office, especially as one of the modern subdivisions of that caste is called Muracu."2 [emphasis mine] >> >> >> >> Footnote 2 reads: >> Edgar T. Thurston, Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Madras, 1909), VI:80 >> >> >> >> But, as shown in page 1 of the attachment, what Thurston (1909:80) really said was: >> >> "At the census, 1891, 348 sub-divisions were returned, of which the following were strongest in point of numbers:- Amma found chiefly in Tanjore and Madura;...; Morasu (drum) in Salem;...". [emphasis mine] >> >> While Hart's change of -su to -cu may be understandable in terms of the Tamil transliteration system, the change of the radical vowel -o- to -u-, which changed the name of the Pa?aiyar subdivision matching the word for 'drum' used in the Classical Tamil texts he cited, was problematic. This change could not have been a typographical error since in a later publication Hart (1987: 475) also says: >> >> >> "One of the modern subdivisions of the Pa?aiya? caste is named "Muracu" (Thurston and Rangachari 1909: VI. 80), and it seems possible that this is a very ancient division." [emphasis mine] >> >> In light of Hart's suggestion of the possible antiquity of this Pa?aiyar subdivision, there is some interesting information about the Morasu subdivision not mentioned by Hart (1975b) and Hart (1987). As can be seen from the highlighted portion in page 2 of the attachment, Thurston (1909: 81) says the following: >> >> >> >> "It has been suggested to me that the Morasu Paraiyans, included in the above list are Canarese Holeyas, who have settled in the Tamil country." [emphasis mine] >> >> >> >> Even more interesting is the situation with respect to the P???r. Hart (1975b: 120) states: >> >> "The low status of bards may also be inferred from the fact that several centuries after the anthologies, Tirupp????v?r, who was a P??a? by caste, was considered to be so low that he was not allowed into the temple." >> >> >> >> (The story of Tirupp????v?r occurs in different medieval Vai??ava hagiographical works such as the ???yirappa?i Guruparampar?prabh?vam. While the Vai??ava hagiographical works depict the P?nar saint Tirupp????v?r as not being allowed to enter the temple, the Periyapur??am, the 12th century ?aiva haigiographical work, portrayed the P??ar saint Tirun?laka??ar as originally standing outside the temple and being brought inside due to intervention by ?iva Himself. In another instance, the brahmin saint Tiru???acampantar is said to have arranged for Tirun?laka?tar to sleep inside another brahmin saint's house.) >> >> >> Hart (1975b: 158) also stated: >> >> >> >> "The Pa?aiya? is found in Tamilnad, Kerala, and the Kota-speaking areas, while the P??a? is found in modern Kerala and Orissa, and in parts of ancient North India, where P??a meant a low-class bard." >> >> >> >> (The sources for the above statement were entries 3319 and 3351 in the first edition of Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (1960), which in turn, relied on Tamil Lexicon and A Malayalam and English Dictionary by Gundert for information related to Tamil and Malayalam words respectively.) >> >> >> >> As one can see, Hart (1975b) had left out any mention of the Tamil P??a? in present day Tamil Nadu. Based on the two statements of Hart quoted above, it seems Hart was not aware of the existence of the P??ar in present day Tamil Nadu. Otherwise, he would not have had to rely on medieval hagiography to ascertain the 'low' status of the P???r. Here lay a fundamental problem with Hart's research approach. He was producing sweeping anthropological conclusions with insufficient knowledge of people he was writing about. >> >> >> >> All Hart had to do was to turn a few pages in Thurston (1909), which he had anyway consulted in the case of the Pa?aiyar. Thurston (1909) spells P??a? as P????, with the second vowel being long ?. This spelling variation cannot be a reason for disregarding the entry. After all, Tamil Lexicon has entries connecting both variants as given below. >> >> >> >> ?????? p??a?, n. < ????. [M. p?na.] 1. An ancient class of Tamil bards and minstrels; ????????? ???????. ???????????????? (????. ??. 91). 2. See ??????. (W.) >> >> >> >> ?????? p????, n. < ??????. Man of the tailor caste; ?????????? ???????? >> >> >> >> Note that the Tamil Lexicon derives 'P????' from 'P??a?'. >> >> >> >> The entry in Thurston (1909: 29-42) on the P???? is a long one discussing both the Tamil P???? as well as the Malayalam P????. The entry opens with a very brief discussion of the Tamil P???? while discussion of the Malayalam P???? takes up the bulk of the entry. But it is the brief discussion of the Tamil P???? that Hart should have taken into account. >> >> >> >> As can be seen in page 3 of the attachment, the entry on the P????s opens with the following statement. "The Tamil P?n?ns are said, in the Census Report, 1901, to be also called M?stris. They are "tailors among Tamils in Madura and Tinnevelly. They employ Br?hmans and Vell?las as pur?hits. Though barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them, they are allowed to enter Hindu temples." Later in the entry, as shown in page 4 of the attachment, in regards to the P????s of Travancore, Thurston (1909: 33) says, "For the following account of the P?n?ns of Travancore, I am indebted to Mr. N. Subramani Aiyar. The word is of Tamil origin, and means a tailor. The title taken by them is Panikkan, the usual honorific appellation of most of the industrial castes of Malabar. They are supposed to be one with the P?n?ns of the Tamil country though much below them in the social scale." >> >> >> >> As Gundert's dictionary notes, in Southern Tamil usage P??a? could indicate a bard as well as a tailor. >> >> ??????? p??a? T. M. (T. ????? = ???? melody). A caste of musicians, actors & players; in So. T. also tailors B., necromancers D. (= ???????????, ?????????????, ??????). ??' ????? ???? ???? prov. ??'???? ??????????????? ???????? Bhr. ? ?????????? V1. a caste of slaves. >> >> >> >> Based on Tamil Lexicon and Gundert's dictionary, it is clear that P?n?n and P?nan are only variants of the same word. After all, there is no separate entry for P??a?s of Kerala in Thurston (1909). Hart should have investigated if the P?n?n/P?nan, the tailor, and P?n?n/P?nan, the bard, were related in any way. If he had conducted some fieldwork like anthropologists do before writing about different communities, he would have quickly realized that the tailors were from the same community as earlier bards. At least if he had done a careful literature review, he would have gotten the true picture of the P?nans. >> >> >> >> For instance, the Arumpatavurai commentary for the Cilappatik?ram glosses tu??ak?rar in Cilappatik?ram (5.32) as P??ar. Also, as has been pointed out by Aiyar ([1924] 1999: 109), Travancore king B?lar?ma Varma's Sanskrit work, B?lar?ma Bharatam of the 18th century, presents as a tailor the bard P??apattiran of Madurai mentioned in the opening poem of the 11th Tirumu?ai of the ?aiva canon. Irakavan (1971: 79), a 20th century scholar, stated: >> >> >> >> "????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ????????????????. ??????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????. ???? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ??????? ????? ????? ????????????. ??? ????. ?????, ?????????? ????????????? ????????????????? ?????, ????????????, ???????????? ????? ????????? ???????? ???????????.???????????? ???? ????? ?????? ???????????????????." >> >> >> >> Here is a translation of the above quote. >> >> "Many wonder if the P??ar caste/lineage exists today. The P??ar caste/lineage has not perished. It exists in the P???iya country even today. Some say that with the disappearance of the lute, the P??ar caste/lineage is ruined too. That is wrong. But people of the P??ar caste/lineage live in small numbers in Maturai, Tirunelv?li, and C?tta?ku?am. Without an occupation, many are engaged in the job of tailoring." >> >> >> I have attached a table from Ludden (1996:123) showing the status of the P??a? in Tirunelveli district in 1823. (See page 5 of the attachment. The date of 1923 shown in the table title should actually be 1823.) One can see that they were small in number but part of the large 'Sudra' category. So were barbers and washermen. None of them was/is an untouchable community. That is why K. K. Pillay (1969: 208), while discussing the use of pulaitti in Classical Tamil texts to refer to the washerwoman, said, "It is not known how the term 'Pulaitti' came to be employed to denote her, because in later times the class of washermen was not identical with that of 'Pulaiyar'." >> >> >> >> Many of the traditional upper caste Tamil pundits of the 20th century did not distinguish between hagiography and history. For them what the Periyapur??am and the Guruparampar? Prabhavam were presenting was history. They did not see these works as propagandist texts intended to promote a specific ideology. So these Tamil pundits believed that the P??ar were untouchables of earlier Tamil society. These Tamil teachers and especially Tamil teachers in northern Tamil Nadu did not know that Tamil P??ar have continued to exist as a community even today and are suffering no untouchability. >> >> >> Most of these Tamil pundits were not knowledgeable about the reality-based social information available in the inscriptions. For instance, they did not know that the P??ar were engaged in singing in front of the deities in brahminic temples, training the temple women in music, and were given houses and money by royal order to perform these duties. See page 6 of the attachment for a translation of a 12th century inscription in the Tiruvi?aimarut?r temple by Orr (2000: 102). >> >> >> Some scholars in Southern Tamil Nadu like Irakavan (1971:78-79) were sold on the Periyapuranam's promotional view that it was the egalitarian nature of the Bhakti movement that allowed the P??ar to enter temples. (On this score, the Periyapur??am had succeeded in its promotional objective.) They had failed to note that Paripatal 3, a pre-Bhakti-movement Classical Tamil poem, calls Visnu "a good P??a? of lute" in a poem that is full of Vedic and Puranic elements. As part of the poem's adoration of Vi??u, Parip??al 3: 81-86 offers the following praise: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "You are the red-eyed one with dark complexion (V?sudeva), the black-eyed and white complexioned one (Sankar?a?a), the golden complexioned one (Pradyumna), the green complexioned one (Aniruddha), the one who dances to the left and right (of cowherd girls), the one who dances with the pot, the one who has the plough, the one who is the lord of cowherds, the one who protects, the one whose nature is not being seen, the one who never leaves the devotee's thought, the one that never dies, the one who rules the world, the poet of ancient texts, the good P???? of lute..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> One cannot imagine this if the P??a? were untouchable before the time of Tiru?anacampantar. >> >> >> >> One can understand the traditional Tamil pundits' ahistorical view given their possibly limited exposure to historiography, anthropology, and comparative linguistics. But one would expect a US scholar with access to Western critical scholarship and other resources at Harvard University, University of Wisconsin-Madison, and University of California, Berkeley to critically explore and evaluate facts. Even after Orr (2000) published the translation of the Tiruvi?aimarut?r inscription shown in the attachment, Hart has not updated his views. >> >> >> >> The facts that the Tamil Pa?aiyar were not untouchable even until 11th century and the P??ar are not untouchable even today completely invalidate Hart's theories regarding untouchability among ancient Tamils. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Moreover, if contact with a?a?ku, the sacred power, caused one to be polluted and become untouchable, T?vantikai, a brahmin woman in the Cilappatikaram, a post-ClassicalTamil epic, who got possessed by C?tta?, danced, and offered oracles would not have been appointed as a priestess by the king in a temple with Vedic sacrificial hall. (See http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2013-November/038692.html) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It is ironic that in order to buttress his views Hart is citing Dravidian Etymological Dictionary as if its groupings are true for all time and as if it gives etymological roots. He is incorrect on both counts. (Deriving etymological roots purely based on dictionary entries without considering the philological context can lead to wrong etymologies as in the case of Tamil ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' (DEDR 396), which S. Starostin derives from *??-. See http://tinyurl.com/q64ko6e . But literary and epigraphic data clearly show that ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' should be grouped with DEDR 5157. See http://www.linguist.jussieu.fr/~chevilla/FestSchrift/supa_9d.pdf for the reasons. Hart's discussion of pul as a root is just another example of the same kind of etymologizing.) Dravidian Etymology Dictionary's author, Emeneau, would be the last person to hold such views. A good example of Emeneau's genuine open-minded scholarship can be seen in Emeneau (1988), after the revised Dravidian Etymological Dictionary was published in 1984. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In other words, philological, epigraphic, and sociological data clearly refute Hart's theories of sacred power and untouchability among Tamils, which were based on a research approach with fundamental problems. >> >> >> >> >> >> References >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Emeneau. M. B. 1988. Proto-Dravidian *C- and Its Developments. Journal of the American Oriental Society 108, no. 2: 239--268. >> >> >> >> Irakavan. A. 1971. Icaiyum Yalum. Tirunelveli: Kalain?? Patippakam. >> >> >> >> Hart, George L., III. 1975a. Ancient Tamil Literature: Its Scholarly Past and Future. In Essays on South India. Edited by Burton Stein, 41-63. University of Hawaii: The University Press of Hawaii. >> >> >> >> Hart, George. L., III. 1975b. The Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their Milieu and Their Sanskrit Counterparts. Berkeley: University of California Press. >> >> >> Hart, George L., III. 1987. Early Evidence for Caste in South India. In Dimentions of Social Life: Essays in Honor of David G. Mandelbaum. Edited by Paul Hockings. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter. >> >> >> >> Ludden, D. E. 1996. Caste Society and Units of Production in Early Modern South India. In >> >> Institutions and Economic Change in South Asia: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives. Edited by Burton Stein and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, 105-133. New Delhi: Oxford University Press. >> >> >> >> Orr, Leslie. 2000. Donors, Daughters, and Devotees of God: Temple Women in Medieval Tamilnadu. New York: Oxford University Press. >> >> >> >> Pillay, K. K. 1969. A Social History of the Tamils Part I. Madras: University of Madras. >> >> >> >> >> Thurston, E. 1909. Castes and Tribes of Southern India. Vol. 6. Madras: Government Press. >> >> ----------------------- >> >> >> >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://listinfo.indology.info From rajam at earthlink.net Sat Nov 30 05:46:06 2013 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 13 21:46:06 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis Message-ID: <3515397.1385790366875.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> well ... I don't really care what the belief systems are elsewhere now. currently, i'm only interested in those socio-anthro analyses of Old Tamil literature, which to me sound very stupid and illogical and highly extrapolated not adhering to the litearture. i wonder how many of those socio-anthro folks really knew to read/write/understand Tamil, especially OLd Tamil literature! in fact, in my view, Sanskritists do a very good job -- of actually learning the language and grammar! s.indian analysts rely heavily on the dictionaries! ;-) -----Original Message----- >From: George Hart >Sent: Nov 29, 2013 8:26 PM >To: Rajam Ramamurti >Cc: palaniappa at aol.com, Indology List , Mani Manivannan , "C.R. Selvakumar" , iraamaki Krishnan , kaavini100 at gmail.com >Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis > >Thanks, Rajam, for giving a link to my article. I hope people will read it and consider it ? perhaps so much controversy can stimulate some more research. As for the article, I really don?t think it says anything that is not generally known by anthropologists who study South India. I was recently speaking to a social worker in Haryana (an Indian, not a westerner) who was perplexed that women who had given birth are severely segregated and are not given access to medical care because of superstitious beliefs (flow of blood). She said sometimes these women die, and that it very difficult to change the villagers? mentality and overcome their very strongly held beliefs. The customs regarding widows are well-known, and suttee is mentioned in Sangam literature. It is my contention that unenlightened beliefs that result in the exploitation and mistreatment of women and others need to be understood if there is to be any chance of changing those beliefs and the conduct they result in. Unfortunately, this is very difficult, not only in India but elsewhere. Belief systems can be quite toxic for people caught up in them. There are endless examples of this all over the world, including the US. > > George > >On Nov 29, 2013, at 7:38 PM, rajam wrote: > >> I agree with what Palaniappan has said here. George DID write/say that some of those Tamilians (Panan, Paraiyans, ...) were of low caste and untouchables. Quite alright if some westerners trying to study an ancient culture hold their own exotic view but what irks someone like me (who has been studying and researching these old texts for 4+ decades) is that some modern "Tamil enthusiasts" (not proficient in Old Tamil) have been going around like little drummer boys rha-ma-pum-pumming GH's glorious statements and putting down every caste in Tamilnadu, and this behavior is highly insensitive and irritating. As a brahmin, I should feel elated to support these drummer boys' low-caste vs high-caste theory, right? But I don't! George's article (http://tamilnation.co/caste/hart.pdf) is highly insensitive with inaccuracies and loaded with speculations from a non-Tamil westerner's point of view. If people have a question like "Is there a ghost in that tree?" the researcher starts with a sentence, "In that ghost-infested tree ... ." What kind of logic is that? In fact, it would be very hard to review G's article from an objective point of view, especially for a native speaker of Tamil like me. Well, my intent now is not to engage in a war (George and I are good friends) but to point out that articles about a non-native culture can hurt the natives. Could I get away making some stupidly sweeping remark that the First Family are slaves? Or, could I question the belief of the immacculate conception? While that is the case, why is it so easy for non-natives to speculate and concoct exotic stupid theories about other cultures -- money? power? arrogance? obnoxiousness? G's articles make me feel like a 'walking virus box' loaded with dangerous sacred power! Please know that men are also "impure" from a woman's perspective. >> >> Thanks and regards, >> Rajam >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: palaniappa at aol.com >>> Sent: Nov 27, 2013 6:00 PM >>> To: indology at list.indology.info >>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Let me address the second part of George Hart's post first. >>> >>> >>> Hart said, "I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not." Unfortunately this is not true. Here is what Hart (1987: 484) said: >>> "A few centuries after the anthologies, an untouchable was not allowed into a Vi??u temple, a practice shown by the exclusion of Tirupp????v?r, a P??a?, from the worship of the god inside the temple proper." (emphasis mine) >>> >>> >>> Another version of the same article available at http://tamilnation.co/caste/hart.pdf shows on page 32 the same statement. In the same article, on page 5, we find the following: >>> >>> >>> >>> "We see, then, that the word pulai carries some opprobrium, and that it is used to refer to several groups that are evidently at the bottom of society?washermen, drummers, bards (P??a?s), a woman who becomes possessed, and the man who officiates at the funeral ceremony. (emphasis mine) >>> >>> >>> >>> Similarly, on page 23, Hart says: >>> "Obviously, the lowercastes themselves felt that the power they dealt with was dangerous and had tobe carefully controlled?hence the plethora of untouchable castes, each with thefitness to do a certain task." (emphasis mine) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hart says on pp. 7-8: >>> ?Two poems, Porunar???uppa?ai 284 and Akam 196 mention that P??a?s would catch fish?one supposes if they were unable to make a living as performers?The performers, at least, lived on the margins of society, and were largelydependent on the largesse of those who were above them. We have yet to considerthe occupation of the performers in detail, but several things are clear: theywere associated with the wilderness, at least to an extent; and in addition toperforming, at least some of them caughtfish?also a low and demeaning occupation.? (emphasis mine) >>> >>> Later in discussingthe impact of Brahmins on the Tamil society, Hart says on pp.36-37: >>> ?The untouchables seem to have become lowerthan they had been before, and to have been surrounded with morerestrictions?no doubt as a result of the fact that king was no longer sodependent upon them (as he now had the Brahmins and their Vedic rites), andthat the small king was no longer as important as he once was, having beenreplaced by the newer gods with their Brahmin attendants. In other words, thefunction of the untouchables nolonger included serving kings?a function that must have enhanced their lowstatus?but was limited to such mundane and undignified tasks as cutting hair,washing clothes, and catching fish.?(emphasis mine) >>> >>> >>> >>> When one sees the above two quotes, it is obvious that Hart is characterizing the P??ar as untouchables. I cannot understand how Hart can say that he never claimed P??a?s were Dalits! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regarding Hart's statement, "Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples," I would appreciate if Hart could provide some historical evidence (other than hagiographies) such as an inscription or traveler statement that point to P??ar being denied entry into temples. >>> >>> >>> >>> As for Hart's statement, "And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them," here is some historical information regarding their social status. Page 1 of the attachment shows an excerpt from the Tanjavur temple inscription of R?jar?ja I of ca. 1014 CE (South Indian Inscriptions, volume 2, no. 66). The amount of share given to different groups indicates how the C??a state valued their services. From the highlighted portions, one can see that each barber received half a share, each washerman received one share, and each P??a? received 1.5 shares. (Singers of Tamil songs and Sanskrit songs too are shown as receiving 1.5 shares each elsewhere in the inscription.) The glossing of P??a? as 'tailor' is a mistake by the editor who has used the late 19th or early 20th century profession of the P??ar. In the inscription, based on the title C?kkai, we have to consider them as Sanskrit theater artists. The highlighted portion of page 2 of the attachment shows a page from Inscriptions in the Pudukkottai State Translated into English, Part 2, by K. R. Srinivasa Ayyar (IPS). It shows that just as in the Classical Tamil period, the P??a? sang the victory of the king at the time of C??a Kul?ttu?ka? III in the beginning of the 13th century and was honored for it. Similarly, the highlighted portion of page 3 of the attachment shows an inscription of Cuntara P??tiya? issued a few years after the C??a inscription. This inscription shows the king giving the C??a crown made of gold to a P??a?. Moreover, the secular text, Kali?kattuppara?i, describes the P??ar performing in the C??a court songs composed by the king. This indicates that the relationship between the P??ar and the kings was almost the same as it was in the Classical Tamil period. Given this situation, it is impossible to accept the low social status of the P??ar as given in the hagiographies. >>> >>> The modern social status of the P??ar is discussed in the book N???r Varal??u (1978) by Prof. M?cas Po??aiy?, former Professor of Tamil at American College, Madurai, who includes them among a number of groups that have become Ve????ar. (See pages 4 and 5 of the attachment. While he is correct with respect to the modern social status of the P??ar, as I said in the earlier post, I disagree with some aspects of the social history he presents.) This is confirmed by pages 6 and 7 of the attachment which present pages from a newspaper of a federation of Ve????ar castes. At the bottom right of page 7 of the attachment one can see an advertisement by the P??ar association. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Palaniappan >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: George Hart >>> To: Indology List >>> Sent: Sun, Nov 24, 2013 4:16 pm >>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis >>> >>> >>> In my opinion, the poems speak for themselves. When the Sangam poems say someone was of despised birth and we see the same group among the Dalits today, that must mean they were Dalits then, I would think. It would be very nice if Sangam society was casteless and we could point to it as an exemplar of what India would be like without the Brahmins or whatever group is supposed to have dreamed up the caste system. The fact remains that caste is spread from Nepal to Sri Lanka and from Assam to Pakistan among many ethnic groups and religions. I think it must be very ancient, and almost certainly pre-Aryan, as the Vedic Aryans had nothing whatsoever like the j?ti system. But however that may be, the Sangam poems specifically mention caste many times. No doubt Palaniappan and I will disagree on this forever, but I think it is important to state that I am not at all persuaded by his arguments. >>> >>> >>> I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not. Apparently, they occupied (and still occupy) a position somewhat above the Dalits, as they stayed in the homes of rich people, sang for them, and also served as go-betweens between rich men and their women. And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them. Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples. >>> >>> >>> If the poems don?t mean what they say, then there may not have been caste in Sangam times in TN. If they do, then it is very difficult to argue against the existence of caste, in my opinion. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> George >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 24, 2013, at 12:27 PM, palaniappa at aol.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I agree completely with Rajam's statement, "There was no indication of "untouchability" in the Tamil society as reflected in early Tamil poems." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Since George Hart has criticized my findings in his post, I would like to say that the contents of Hart's post are nothing new. All these have been addressed in my paper available at http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf . We have also discussed this in Indology in 2009. Here are the last two posts of the Indology discussion http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033485.html >>> >>> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033486.html . >>> So instead of going over material already covered, I shall discuss something I have not discussed so far. I shall summarize the crux of my views briefly at first. Those who are interested in the details can read further. >>> >>> >>> >>> For almost four decades, George Hart has propounded his views on the concept of dangerous sacred power,a?a?ku, among the Tamils and the practice of untouchability that resulted from contact with the sacred power. According to Hart, the P??a?s and Pa?aiya?s have always been the lowest castes because they were polluted because they came in contact with that sacred power. The only problem is that, as I had mentioned in 2009, there is clear epigraphic evidence that the Tamil Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) were not untouchables as late as the 11th century and Tamil P??ar (plural of the P??a?) are not untouchables even today. These facts completely invalidate Hart's theories. The reason Hart came to a conclusion diametrically opposite to mine is that his research methodology had major errors of commission and omission. >>> >>> >>> >>> Those who are interested in more details can read on below. >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Regarding the power of a?a?ku, Hart (1975a: 43) wrote: >>> >>> "This power had to be rigidly controlled. As a result, religious rites were carried out by the lowest castes: the Pa?aiya?s , the P??a?s, the Tu?iya?s, and the V?la?s...The V?la?, who is even today found among the Pa?aiya?s of Kerala, would dance ecstatically as he was possessed by Murugan, an indigenous god...The Pa?aiya?, the P??a?, and the Tu?iya? would each play a special instrument which was thought to be inhabited by a sacred power and which was used for various ritual purposes. The pollution which is attached to the low castes is thus a legacy of indigenous Dravidian religion." >>> >>> Hart's views of Tamil untouchability and sacred power are inseparable. And for his whole theory to have any validity, the Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) and the P??ar (plural of the P??a?) he has mentioned above should be untouchables or lowest castes. If even one group is not untouchable, his whole theory collapses. I have already mentioned that the Pa?aiyar were not untouchables in the 11th century. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hart (1975b:144) also says the following in connection with the Pa?aiyar: >>> "Elsewhere, the drum played for the king in the morning is the muracu (Pu?. 61, 397; Ai?. 448) . While there is nowhere any indication of who played the muracu, it is not unlikely that a subcaste of the Pa?aiya?s had that office, especially as one of the modern subdivisions of that caste is called Muracu."2 [emphasis mine] >>> >>> >>> >>> Footnote 2 reads: >>> Edgar T. Thurston, Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Madras, 1909), VI:80 >>> >>> >>> >>> But, as shown in page 1 of the attachment, what Thurston (1909:80) really said was: >>> >>> "At the census, 1891, 348 sub-divisions were returned, of which the following were strongest in point of numbers:- Amma found chiefly in Tanjore and Madura;...; Morasu (drum) in Salem;...". [emphasis mine] >>> >>> While Hart's change of -su to -cu may be understandable in terms of the Tamil transliteration system, the change of the radical vowel -o- to -u-, which changed the name of the Pa?aiyar subdivision matching the word for 'drum' used in the Classical Tamil texts he cited, was problematic. This change could not have been a typographical error since in a later publication Hart (1987: 475) also says: >>> >>> >>> "One of the modern subdivisions of the Pa?aiya? caste is named "Muracu" (Thurston and Rangachari 1909: VI. 80), and it seems possible that this is a very ancient division." [emphasis mine] >>> >>> In light of Hart's suggestion of the possible antiquity of this Pa?aiyar subdivision, there is some interesting information about the Morasu subdivision not mentioned by Hart (1975b) and Hart (1987). As can be seen from the highlighted portion in page 2 of the attachment, Thurston (1909: 81) says the following: >>> >>> >>> >>> "It has been suggested to me that the Morasu Paraiyans, included in the above list are Canarese Holeyas, who have settled in the Tamil country." [emphasis mine] >>> >>> >>> >>> Even more interesting is the situation with respect to the P???r. Hart (1975b: 120) states: >>> >>> "The low status of bards may also be inferred from the fact that several centuries after the anthologies, Tirupp????v?r, who was a P??a? by caste, was considered to be so low that he was not allowed into the temple." >>> >>> >>> >>> (The story of Tirupp????v?r occurs in different medieval Vai??ava hagiographical works such as the ???yirappa?i Guruparampar?prabh?vam. While the Vai??ava hagiographical works depict the P?nar saint Tirupp????v?r as not being allowed to enter the temple, the Periyapur??am, the 12th century ?aiva haigiographical work, portrayed the P??ar saint Tirun?laka??ar as originally standing outside the temple and being brought inside due to intervention by ?iva Himself. In another instance, the brahmin saint Tiru???acampantar is said to have arranged for Tirun?laka?tar to sleep inside another brahmin saint's house.) >>> >>> >>> Hart (1975b: 158) also stated: >>> >>> >>> >>> "The Pa?aiya? is found in Tamilnad, Kerala, and the Kota-speaking areas, while the P??a? is found in modern Kerala and Orissa, and in parts of ancient North India, where P??a meant a low-class bard." >>> >>> >>> >>> (The sources for the above statement were entries 3319 and 3351 in the first edition of Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (1960), which in turn, relied on Tamil Lexicon and A Malayalam and English Dictionary by Gundert for information related to Tamil and Malayalam words respectively.) >>> >>> >>> >>> As one can see, Hart (1975b) had left out any mention of the Tamil P??a? in present day Tamil Nadu. Based on the two statements of Hart quoted above, it seems Hart was not aware of the existence of the P??ar in present day Tamil Nadu. Otherwise, he would not have had to rely on medieval hagiography to ascertain the 'low' status of the P???r. Here lay a fundamental problem with Hart's research approach. He was producing sweeping anthropological conclusions with insufficient knowledge of people he was writing about. >>> >>> >>> >>> All Hart had to do was to turn a few pages in Thurston (1909), which he had anyway consulted in the case of the Pa?aiyar. Thurston (1909) spells P??a? as P????, with the second vowel being long ?. This spelling variation cannot be a reason for disregarding the entry. After all, Tamil Lexicon has entries connecting both variants as given below. >>> >>> >>> >>> ?????? p??a?, n. < ????. [M. p?na.] 1. An ancient class of Tamil bards and minstrels; ????????? ???????. ???????????????? (????. ??. 91). 2. See ??????. (W.) >>> >>> >>> >>> ?????? p????, n. < ??????. Man of the tailor caste; ?????????? ???????? >>> >>> >>> >>> Note that the Tamil Lexicon derives 'P????' from 'P??a?'. >>> >>> >>> >>> The entry in Thurston (1909: 29-42) on the P???? is a long one discussing both the Tamil P???? as well as the Malayalam P????. The entry opens with a very brief discussion of the Tamil P???? while discussion of the Malayalam P???? takes up the bulk of the entry. But it is the brief discussion of the Tamil P???? that Hart should have taken into account. >>> >>> >>> >>> As can be seen in page 3 of the attachment, the entry on the P????s opens with the following statement. "The Tamil P?n?ns are said, in the Census Report, 1901, to be also called M?stris. They are "tailors among Tamils in Madura and Tinnevelly. They employ Br?hmans and Vell?las as pur?hits. Though barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them, they are allowed to enter Hindu temples." Later in the entry, as shown in page 4 of the attachment, in regards to the P????s of Travancore, Thurston (1909: 33) says, "For the following account of the P?n?ns of Travancore, I am indebted to Mr. N. Subramani Aiyar. The word is of Tamil origin, and means a tailor. The title taken by them is Panikkan, the usual honorific appellation of most of the industrial castes of Malabar. They are supposed to be one with the P?n?ns of the Tamil country though much below them in the social scale." >>> >>> >>> >>> As Gundert's dictionary notes, in Southern Tamil usage P??a? could indicate a bard as well as a tailor. >>> >>> ??????? p??a? T. M. (T. ????? = ???? melody). A caste of musicians, actors & players; in So. T. also tailors B., necromancers D. (= ???????????, ?????????????, ??????). ??' ????? ???? ???? prov. ??'???? ??????????????? ???????? Bhr. ? ?????????? V1. a caste of slaves. >>> >>> >>> >>> Based on Tamil Lexicon and Gundert's dictionary, it is clear that P?n?n and P?nan are only variants of the same word. After all, there is no separate entry for P??a?s of Kerala in Thurston (1909). Hart should have investigated if the P?n?n/P?nan, the tailor, and P?n?n/P?nan, the bard, were related in any way. If he had conducted some fieldwork like anthropologists do before writing about different communities, he would have quickly realized that the tailors were from the same community as earlier bards. At least if he had done a careful literature review, he would have gotten the true picture of the P?nans. >>> >>> >>> >>> For instance, the Arumpatavurai commentary for the Cilappatik?ram glosses tu??ak?rar in Cilappatik?ram (5.32) as P??ar. Also, as has been pointed out by Aiyar ([1924] 1999: 109), Travancore king B?lar?ma Varma's Sanskrit work, B?lar?ma Bharatam of the 18th century, presents as a tailor the bard P??apattiran of Madurai mentioned in the opening poem of the 11th Tirumu?ai of the ?aiva canon. Irakavan (1971: 79), a 20th century scholar, stated: >>> >>> >>> >>> "????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ????????????????. ??????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????. ???? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ??????? ????? ????? ????????????. ??? ????. ?????, ?????????? ????????????? ????????????????? ?????, ????????????, ???????????? ????? ????????? ???????? ???????????.???????????? ???? ????? ?????? ???????????????????." >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is a translation of the above quote. >>> >>> "Many wonder if the P??ar caste/lineage exists today. The P??ar caste/lineage has not perished. It exists in the P???iya country even today. Some say that with the disappearance of the lute, the P??ar caste/lineage is ruined too. That is wrong. But people of the P??ar caste/lineage live in small numbers in Maturai, Tirunelv?li, and C?tta?ku?am. Without an occupation, many are engaged in the job of tailoring." >>> >>> >>> I have attached a table from Ludden (1996:123) showing the status of the P??a? in Tirunelveli district in 1823. (See page 5 of the attachment. The date of 1923 shown in the table title should actually be 1823.) One can see that they were small in number but part of the large 'Sudra' category. So were barbers and washermen. None of them was/is an untouchable community. That is why K. K. Pillay (1969: 208), while discussing the use of pulaitti in Classical Tamil texts to refer to the washerwoman, said, "It is not known how the term 'Pulaitti' came to be employed to denote her, because in later times the class of washermen was not identical with that of 'Pulaiyar'." >>> >>> >>> >>> Many of the traditional upper caste Tamil pundits of the 20th century did not distinguish between hagiography and history. For them what the Periyapur??am and the Guruparampar? Prabhavam were presenting was history. They did not see these works as propagandist texts intended to promote a specific ideology. So these Tamil pundits believed that the P??ar were untouchables of earlier Tamil society. These Tamil teachers and especially Tamil teachers in northern Tamil Nadu did not know that Tamil P??ar have continued to exist as a community even today and are suffering no untouchability. >>> >>> >>> Most of these Tamil pundits were not knowledgeable about the reality-based social information available in the inscriptions. For instance, they did not know that the P??ar were engaged in singing in front of the deities in brahminic temples, training the temple women in music, and were given houses and money by royal order to perform these duties. See page 6 of the attachment for a translation of a 12th century inscription in the Tiruvi?aimarut?r temple by Orr (2000: 102). >>> >>> >>> Some scholars in Southern Tamil Nadu like Irakavan (1971:78-79) were sold on the Periyapuranam's promotional view that it was the egalitarian nature of the Bhakti movement that allowed the P??ar to enter temples. (On this score, the Periyapur??am had succeeded in its promotional objective.) They had failed to note that Paripatal 3, a pre-Bhakti-movement Classical Tamil poem, calls Visnu "a good P??a? of lute" in a poem that is full of Vedic and Puranic elements. As part of the poem's adoration of Vi??u, Parip??al 3: 81-86 offers the following praise: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "You are the red-eyed one with dark complexion (V?sudeva), the black-eyed and white complexioned one (Sankar?a?a), the golden complexioned one (Pradyumna), the green complexioned one (Aniruddha), the one who dances to the left and right (of cowherd girls), the one who dances with the pot, the one who has the plough, the one who is the lord of cowherds, the one who protects, the one whose nature is not being seen, the one who never leaves the devotee's thought, the one that never dies, the one who rules the world, the poet of ancient texts, the good P???? of lute..." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> One cannot imagine this if the P??a? were untouchable before the time of Tiru?anacampantar. >>> >>> >>> >>> One can understand the traditional Tamil pundits' ahistorical view given their possibly limited exposure to historiography, anthropology, and comparative linguistics. But one would expect a US scholar with access to Western critical scholarship and other resources at Harvard University, University of Wisconsin-Madison, and University of California, Berkeley to critically explore and evaluate facts. Even after Orr (2000) published the translation of the Tiruvi?aimarut?r inscription shown in the attachment, Hart has not updated his views. >>> >>> >>> >>> The facts that the Tamil Pa?aiyar were not untouchable even until 11th century and the P??ar are not untouchable even today completely invalidate Hart's theories regarding untouchability among ancient Tamils. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Moreover, if contact with a?a?ku, the sacred power, caused one to be polluted and become untouchable, T?vantikai, a brahmin woman in the Cilappatikaram, a post-ClassicalTamil epic, who got possessed by C?tta?, danced, and offered oracles would not have been appointed as a priestess by the king in a temple with Vedic sacrificial hall. (See http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2013-November/038692.html) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> It is ironic that in order to buttress his views Hart is citing Dravidian Etymological Dictionary as if its groupings are true for all time and as if it gives etymological roots. He is incorrect on both counts. (Deriving etymological roots purely based on dictionary entries without considering the philological context can lead to wrong etymologies as in the case of Tamil ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' (DEDR 396), which S. Starostin derives from *??-. See http://tinyurl.com/q64ko6e . But literary and epigraphic data clearly show that ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' should be grouped with DEDR 5157. See http://www.linguist.jussieu.fr/~chevilla/FestSchrift/supa_9d.pdf for the reasons. Hart's discussion of pul as a root is just another example of the same kind of etymologizing.) Dravidian Etymology Dictionary's author, Emeneau, would be the last person to hold such views. A good example of Emeneau's genuine open-minded scholarship can be seen in Emeneau (1988), after the revised Dravidian Etymological Dictionary was published in 1984. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In other words, philological, epigraphic, and sociological data clearly refute Hart's theories of sacred power and untouchability among Tamils, which were based on a research approach with fundamental problems. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> References >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Emeneau. M. B. 1988. Proto-Dravidian *C- and Its Developments. Journal of the American Oriental Society 108, no. 2: 239--268. >>> >>> >>> >>> Irakavan. A. 1971. Icaiyum Yalum. Tirunelveli: Kalain?? Patippakam. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hart, George L., III. 1975a. Ancient Tamil Literature: Its Scholarly Past and Future. In Essays on South India. Edited by Burton Stein, 41-63. University of Hawaii: The University Press of Hawaii. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hart, George. L., III. 1975b. The Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their Milieu and Their Sanskrit Counterparts. Berkeley: University of California Press. >>> >>> >>> Hart, George L., III. 1987. Early Evidence for Caste in South India. In Dimentions of Social Life: Essays in Honor of David G. Mandelbaum. Edited by Paul Hockings. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter. >>> >>> >>> >>> Ludden, D. E. 1996. Caste Society and Units of Production in Early Modern South India. In >>> >>> Institutions and Economic Change in South Asia: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives. Edited by Burton Stein and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, 105-133. New Delhi: Oxford University Press. >>> >>> >>> >>> Orr, Leslie. 2000. Donors, Daughters, and Devotees of God: Temple Women in Medieval Tamilnadu. New York: Oxford University Press. >>> >>> >>> >>> Pillay, K. K. 1969. A Social History of the Tamils Part I. Madras: University of Madras. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thurston, E. 1909. Castes and Tribes of Southern India. Vol. 6. Madras: Government Press. >>> >>> ----------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Palaniappan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://listinfo.indology.info > From glhart at berkeley.edu Sat Nov 30 16:41:30 2013 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 13 08:41:30 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis In-Reply-To: <3515397.1385790366875.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: All I have done is to give evidence that I think shows a fairly coherent belief system in Sangam literature that is consistent with what happens in villages today (or at least in villages 50 years ago). For example, we find very clear descriptions of suttee, of widow asceticism, of a?a?ku being localized in the breasts in Sangam Literature. Then we have the Cilappatik?ram in which a widow burns down Madurai by tearing off her breast. And today we still have widow asceticism. Until about a century ago, low-caste women were not allowed to wear blouses to cover their breasts. These seem to me to be linked by a system of belief. The same is true with the communities found in Sangam Literature, I believe. These are similar to castes ? whether one calls them castes or not is immaterial. They were almost certainly endogamous; in fact, Trautmann?s Dravidian Kinship shows that cross-cousin marriage was the norm in all of the Deccan for millennia (a fact confirmed by Ku?untokai 40). The poems, in my opinion, indicate that Dalits existed when they were written and that they served as intermediaries with the spirit world, which they continue to do today. It is my opinion that village culture and beliefs in much of South Asia have changed very slowly over the millennia I have tried to give evidence for these views. Many have disagreed, though I have not found any criticism that for me has been persuasive. I would not at all mind being proved wrong, but in my analysis, the basic belief system in Tamil villages has persisted for at least two millennia. It is up to other scholars to accept these views or reject them. George On Nov 29, 2013, at 9:46 PM, rajam wrote: > well ... I don't really care what the belief systems are elsewhere now. currently, i'm only interested in those socio-anthro analyses of Old Tamil literature, which to me sound very stupid and illogical and highly extrapolated not adhering to the litearture. i wonder how many of those socio-anthro folks really knew to read/write/understand Tamil, especially OLd Tamil literature! in fact, in my view, Sanskritists do a very good job -- of actually learning the language and grammar! s.indian analysts rely heavily on the dictionaries! ;-) > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: George Hart >> Sent: Nov 29, 2013 8:26 PM >> To: Rajam Ramamurti >> Cc: palaniappa at aol.com, Indology List , Mani Manivannan , "C.R. Selvakumar" , iraamaki Krishnan , kaavini100 at gmail.com >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis >> >> Thanks, Rajam, for giving a link to my article. I hope people will read it and consider it ? perhaps so much controversy can stimulate some more research. As for the article, I really don?t think it says anything that is not generally known by anthropologists who study South India. I was recently speaking to a social worker in Haryana (an Indian, not a westerner) who was perplexed that women who had given birth are severely segregated and are not given access to medical care because of superstitious beliefs (flow of blood). She said sometimes these women die, and that it very difficult to change the villagers? mentality and overcome their very strongly held beliefs. The customs regarding widows are well-known, and suttee is mentioned in Sangam literature. It is my contention that unenlightened beliefs that result in the exploitation and mistreatment of women and others need to be understood if there is to be any chance of changing those beliefs and the conduct they result in. Unfortunately, this is very difficult, not only in India but elsewhere. Belief systems can be quite toxic for people caught up in them. There are endless examples of this all over the world, including the US. >> >> George >> >> On Nov 29, 2013, at 7:38 PM, rajam wrote: >> >>> I agree with what Palaniappan has said here. George DID write/say that some of those Tamilians (Panan, Paraiyans, ...) were of low caste and untouchables. Quite alright if some westerners trying to study an ancient culture hold their own exotic view but what irks someone like me (who has been studying and researching these old texts for 4+ decades) is that some modern "Tamil enthusiasts" (not proficient in Old Tamil) have been going around like little drummer boys rha-ma-pum-pumming GH's glorious statements and putting down every caste in Tamilnadu, and this behavior is highly insensitive and irritating. As a brahmin, I should feel elated to support these drummer boys' low-caste vs high-caste theory, right? But I don't! George's article (http://tamilnation.co/caste/hart.pdf) is highly insensitive with inaccuracies and loaded with speculations from a non-Tamil westerner's point of view. If people have a question like "Is there a ghost in that tree?" the researcher starts with a sentence, "In that ghost-infested tree ... ." What kind of logic is that? In fact, it would be very hard to review G's article from an objective point of view, especially for a native speaker of Tamil like me. Well, my intent now is not to engage in a war (George and I are good friends) but to point out that articles about a non-native culture can hurt the natives. Could I get away making some stupidly sweeping remark that the First Family are slaves? Or, could I question the belief of the immacculate conception? While that is the case, why is it so easy for non-natives to speculate and concoct exotic stupid theories about other cultures -- money? power? arrogance? obnoxiousness? G's articles make me feel like a 'walking virus box' loaded with dangerous sacred power! Please know that men are also "impure" from a woman's perspective. >>> >>> Thanks and regards, >>> Rajam >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: palaniappa at aol.com >>>> Sent: Nov 27, 2013 6:00 PM >>>> To: indology at list.indology.info >>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Let me address the second part of George Hart's post first. >>>> >>>> >>>> Hart said, "I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not." Unfortunately this is not true. Here is what Hart (1987: 484) said: >>>> "A few centuries after the anthologies, an untouchable was not allowed into a Vi??u temple, a practice shown by the exclusion of Tirupp????v?r, a P??a?, from the worship of the god inside the temple proper." (emphasis mine) >>>> >>>> >>>> Another version of the same article available at http://tamilnation.co/caste/hart.pdf shows on page 32 the same statement. In the same article, on page 5, we find the following: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "We see, then, that the word pulai carries some opprobrium, and that it is used to refer to several groups that are evidently at the bottom of society?washermen, drummers, bards (P??a?s), a woman who becomes possessed, and the man who officiates at the funeral ceremony. (emphasis mine) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Similarly, on page 23, Hart says: >>>> "Obviously, the lowercastes themselves felt that the power they dealt with was dangerous and had tobe carefully controlled?hence the plethora of untouchable castes, each with thefitness to do a certain task." (emphasis mine) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hart says on pp. 7-8: >>>> ?Two poems, Porunar???uppa?ai 284 and Akam 196 mention that P??a?s would catch fish?one supposes if they were unable to make a living as performers?The performers, at least, lived on the margins of society, and were largelydependent on the largesse of those who were above them. We have yet to considerthe occupation of the performers in detail, but several things are clear: theywere associated with the wilderness, at least to an extent; and in addition toperforming, at least some of them caughtfish?also a low and demeaning occupation.? (emphasis mine) >>>> >>>> Later in discussingthe impact of Brahmins on the Tamil society, Hart says on pp.36-37: >>>> ?The untouchables seem to have become lowerthan they had been before, and to have been surrounded with morerestrictions?no doubt as a result of the fact that king was no longer sodependent upon them (as he now had the Brahmins and their Vedic rites), andthat the small king was no longer as important as he once was, having beenreplaced by the newer gods with their Brahmin attendants. In other words, thefunction of the untouchables nolonger included serving kings?a function that must have enhanced their lowstatus?but was limited to such mundane and undignified tasks as cutting hair,washing clothes, and catching fish.?(emphasis mine) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> When one sees the above two quotes, it is obvious that Hart is characterizing the P??ar as untouchables. I cannot understand how Hart can say that he never claimed P??a?s were Dalits! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regarding Hart's statement, "Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples," I would appreciate if Hart could provide some historical evidence (other than hagiographies) such as an inscription or traveler statement that point to P??ar being denied entry into temples. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As for Hart's statement, "And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them," here is some historical information regarding their social status. Page 1 of the attachment shows an excerpt from the Tanjavur temple inscription of R?jar?ja I of ca. 1014 CE (South Indian Inscriptions, volume 2, no. 66). The amount of share given to different groups indicates how the C??a state valued their services. From the highlighted portions, one can see that each barber received half a share, each washerman received one share, and each P??a? received 1.5 shares. (Singers of Tamil songs and Sanskrit songs too are shown as receiving 1.5 shares each elsewhere in the inscription.) The glossing of P??a? as 'tailor' is a mistake by the editor who has used the late 19th or early 20th century profession of the P??ar. In the inscription, based on the title C?kkai, we have to consider them as Sanskrit theater artists. The highlighted portion of page 2 of the attachment shows a page from Inscriptions in the Pudukkottai State Translated into English, Part 2, by K. R. Srinivasa Ayyar (IPS). It shows that just as in the Classical Tamil period, the P??a? sang the victory of the king at the time of C??a Kul?ttu?ka? III in the beginning of the 13th century and was honored for it. Similarly, the highlighted portion of page 3 of the attachment shows an inscription of Cuntara P??tiya? issued a few years after the C??a inscription. This inscription shows the king giving the C??a crown made of gold to a P??a?. Moreover, the secular text, Kali?kattuppara?i, describes the P??ar performing in the C??a court songs composed by the king. This indicates that the relationship between the P??ar and the kings was almost the same as it was in the Classical Tamil period. Given this situation, it is impossible to accept the low social status of the P??ar as given in the hagiographies. >>>> >>>> The modern social status of the P??ar is discussed in the book N???r Varal??u (1978) by Prof. M?cas Po??aiy?, former Professor of Tamil at American College, Madurai, who includes them among a number of groups that have become Ve????ar. (See pages 4 and 5 of the attachment. While he is correct with respect to the modern social status of the P??ar, as I said in the earlier post, I disagree with some aspects of the social history he presents.) This is confirmed by pages 6 and 7 of the attachment which present pages from a newspaper of a federation of Ve????ar castes. At the bottom right of page 7 of the attachment one can see an advertisement by the P??ar association. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Palaniappan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: George Hart >>>> To: Indology List >>>> Sent: Sun, Nov 24, 2013 4:16 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis >>>> >>>> >>>> In my opinion, the poems speak for themselves. When the Sangam poems say someone was of despised birth and we see the same group among the Dalits today, that must mean they were Dalits then, I would think. It would be very nice if Sangam society was casteless and we could point to it as an exemplar of what India would be like without the Brahmins or whatever group is supposed to have dreamed up the caste system. The fact remains that caste is spread from Nepal to Sri Lanka and from Assam to Pakistan among many ethnic groups and religions. I think it must be very ancient, and almost certainly pre-Aryan, as the Vedic Aryans had nothing whatsoever like the j?ti system. But however that may be, the Sangam poems specifically mention caste many times. No doubt Palaniappan and I will disagree on this forever, but I think it is important to state that I am not at all persuaded by his arguments. >>>> >>>> >>>> I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not. Apparently, they occupied (and still occupy) a position somewhat above the Dalits, as they stayed in the homes of rich people, sang for them, and also served as go-betweens between rich men and their women. And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them. Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples. >>>> >>>> >>>> If the poems don?t mean what they say, then there may not have been caste in Sangam times in TN. If they do, then it is very difficult to argue against the existence of caste, in my opinion. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> George >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 24, 2013, at 12:27 PM, palaniappa at aol.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I agree completely with Rajam's statement, "There was no indication of "untouchability" in the Tamil society as reflected in early Tamil poems." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Since George Hart has criticized my findings in his post, I would like to say that the contents of Hart's post are nothing new. All these have been addressed in my paper available at http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf . We have also discussed this in Indology in 2009. Here are the last two posts of the Indology discussion http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033485.html >>>> >>>> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033486.html . >>>> So instead of going over material already covered, I shall discuss something I have not discussed so far. I shall summarize the crux of my views briefly at first. Those who are interested in the details can read further. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For almost four decades, George Hart has propounded his views on the concept of dangerous sacred power,a?a?ku, among the Tamils and the practice of untouchability that resulted from contact with the sacred power. According to Hart, the P??a?s and Pa?aiya?s have always been the lowest castes because they were polluted because they came in contact with that sacred power. The only problem is that, as I had mentioned in 2009, there is clear epigraphic evidence that the Tamil Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) were not untouchables as late as the 11th century and Tamil P??ar (plural of the P??a?) are not untouchables even today. These facts completely invalidate Hart's theories. The reason Hart came to a conclusion diametrically opposite to mine is that his research methodology had major errors of commission and omission. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Those who are interested in more details can read on below. >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Regarding the power of a?a?ku, Hart (1975a: 43) wrote: >>>> >>>> "This power had to be rigidly controlled. As a result, religious rites were carried out by the lowest castes: the Pa?aiya?s , the P??a?s, the Tu?iya?s, and the V?la?s...The V?la?, who is even today found among the Pa?aiya?s of Kerala, would dance ecstatically as he was possessed by Murugan, an indigenous god...The Pa?aiya?, the P??a?, and the Tu?iya? would each play a special instrument which was thought to be inhabited by a sacred power and which was used for various ritual purposes. The pollution which is attached to the low castes is thus a legacy of indigenous Dravidian religion." >>>> >>>> Hart's views of Tamil untouchability and sacred power are inseparable. And for his whole theory to have any validity, the Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) and the P??ar (plural of the P??a?) he has mentioned above should be untouchables or lowest castes. If even one group is not untouchable, his whole theory collapses. I have already mentioned that the Pa?aiyar were not untouchables in the 11th century. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hart (1975b:144) also says the following in connection with the Pa?aiyar: >>>> "Elsewhere, the drum played for the king in the morning is the muracu (Pu?. 61, 397; Ai?. 448) . While there is nowhere any indication of who played the muracu, it is not unlikely that a subcaste of the Pa?aiya?s had that office, especially as one of the modern subdivisions of that caste is called Muracu."2 [emphasis mine] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Footnote 2 reads: >>>> Edgar T. Thurston, Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Madras, 1909), VI:80 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But, as shown in page 1 of the attachment, what Thurston (1909:80) really said was: >>>> >>>> "At the census, 1891, 348 sub-divisions were returned, of which the following were strongest in point of numbers:- Amma found chiefly in Tanjore and Madura;...; Morasu (drum) in Salem;...". [emphasis mine] >>>> >>>> While Hart's change of -su to -cu may be understandable in terms of the Tamil transliteration system, the change of the radical vowel -o- to -u-, which changed the name of the Pa?aiyar subdivision matching the word for 'drum' used in the Classical Tamil texts he cited, was problematic. This change could not have been a typographical error since in a later publication Hart (1987: 475) also says: >>>> >>>> >>>> "One of the modern subdivisions of the Pa?aiya? caste is named "Muracu" (Thurston and Rangachari 1909: VI. 80), and it seems possible that this is a very ancient division." [emphasis mine] >>>> >>>> In light of Hart's suggestion of the possible antiquity of this Pa?aiyar subdivision, there is some interesting information about the Morasu subdivision not mentioned by Hart (1975b) and Hart (1987). As can be seen from the highlighted portion in page 2 of the attachment, Thurston (1909: 81) says the following: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "It has been suggested to me that the Morasu Paraiyans, included in the above list are Canarese Holeyas, who have settled in the Tamil country." [emphasis mine] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Even more interesting is the situation with respect to the P???r. Hart (1975b: 120) states: >>>> >>>> "The low status of bards may also be inferred from the fact that several centuries after the anthologies, Tirupp????v?r, who was a P??a? by caste, was considered to be so low that he was not allowed into the temple." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (The story of Tirupp????v?r occurs in different medieval Vai??ava hagiographical works such as the ???yirappa?i Guruparampar?prabh?vam. While the Vai??ava hagiographical works depict the P?nar saint Tirupp????v?r as not being allowed to enter the temple, the Periyapur??am, the 12th century ?aiva haigiographical work, portrayed the P??ar saint Tirun?laka??ar as originally standing outside the temple and being brought inside due to intervention by ?iva Himself. In another instance, the brahmin saint Tiru???acampantar is said to have arranged for Tirun?laka?tar to sleep inside another brahmin saint's house.) >>>> >>>> >>>> Hart (1975b: 158) also stated: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "The Pa?aiya? is found in Tamilnad, Kerala, and the Kota-speaking areas, while the P??a? is found in modern Kerala and Orissa, and in parts of ancient North India, where P??a meant a low-class bard." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (The sources for the above statement were entries 3319 and 3351 in the first edition of Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (1960), which in turn, relied on Tamil Lexicon and A Malayalam and English Dictionary by Gundert for information related to Tamil and Malayalam words respectively.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As one can see, Hart (1975b) had left out any mention of the Tamil P??a? in present day Tamil Nadu. Based on the two statements of Hart quoted above, it seems Hart was not aware of the existence of the P??ar in present day Tamil Nadu. Otherwise, he would not have had to rely on medieval hagiography to ascertain the 'low' status of the P???r. Here lay a fundamental problem with Hart's research approach. He was producing sweeping anthropological conclusions with insufficient knowledge of people he was writing about. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> All Hart had to do was to turn a few pages in Thurston (1909), which he had anyway consulted in the case of the Pa?aiyar. Thurston (1909) spells P??a? as P????, with the second vowel being long ?. This spelling variation cannot be a reason for disregarding the entry. After all, Tamil Lexicon has entries connecting both variants as given below. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ?????? p??a?, n. < ????. [M. p?na.] 1. An ancient class of Tamil bards and minstrels; ????????? ???????. ???????????????? (????. ??. 91). 2. See ??????. (W.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ?????? p????, n. < ??????. Man of the tailor caste; ?????????? ???????? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Note that the Tamil Lexicon derives 'P????' from 'P??a?'. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The entry in Thurston (1909: 29-42) on the P???? is a long one discussing both the Tamil P???? as well as the Malayalam P????. The entry opens with a very brief discussion of the Tamil P???? while discussion of the Malayalam P???? takes up the bulk of the entry. But it is the brief discussion of the Tamil P???? that Hart should have taken into account. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As can be seen in page 3 of the attachment, the entry on the P????s opens with the following statement. "The Tamil P?n?ns are said, in the Census Report, 1901, to be also called M?stris. They are "tailors among Tamils in Madura and Tinnevelly. They employ Br?hmans and Vell?las as pur?hits. Though barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them, they are allowed to enter Hindu temples." Later in the entry, as shown in page 4 of the attachment, in regards to the P????s of Travancore, Thurston (1909: 33) says, "For the following account of the P?n?ns of Travancore, I am indebted to Mr. N. Subramani Aiyar. The word is of Tamil origin, and means a tailor. The title taken by them is Panikkan, the usual honorific appellation of most of the industrial castes of Malabar. They are supposed to be one with the P?n?ns of the Tamil country though much below them in the social scale." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As Gundert's dictionary notes, in Southern Tamil usage P??a? could indicate a bard as well as a tailor. >>>> >>>> ??????? p??a? T. M. (T. ????? = ???? melody). A caste of musicians, actors & players; in So. T. also tailors B., necromancers D. (= ???????????, ?????????????, ??????). ??' ????? ???? ???? prov. ??'???? ??????????????? ???????? Bhr. ? ?????????? V1. a caste of slaves. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Based on Tamil Lexicon and Gundert's dictionary, it is clear that P?n?n and P?nan are only variants of the same word. After all, there is no separate entry for P??a?s of Kerala in Thurston (1909). Hart should have investigated if the P?n?n/P?nan, the tailor, and P?n?n/P?nan, the bard, were related in any way. If he had conducted some fieldwork like anthropologists do before writing about different communities, he would have quickly realized that the tailors were from the same community as earlier bards. At least if he had done a careful literature review, he would have gotten the true picture of the P?nans. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For instance, the Arumpatavurai commentary for the Cilappatik?ram glosses tu??ak?rar in Cilappatik?ram (5.32) as P??ar. Also, as has been pointed out by Aiyar ([1924] 1999: 109), Travancore king B?lar?ma Varma's Sanskrit work, B?lar?ma Bharatam of the 18th century, presents as a tailor the bard P??apattiran of Madurai mentioned in the opening poem of the 11th Tirumu?ai of the ?aiva canon. Irakavan (1971: 79), a 20th century scholar, stated: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ????????????????. ??????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????. ???? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ??????? ????? ????? ????????????. ??? ????. ?????, ?????????? ????????????? ????????????????? ?????, ????????????, ???????????? ????? ????????? ???????? ???????????.???????????? ???? ????? ?????? ???????????????????." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Here is a translation of the above quote. >>>> >>>> "Many wonder if the P??ar caste/lineage exists today. The P??ar caste/lineage has not perished. It exists in the P???iya country even today. Some say that with the disappearance of the lute, the P??ar caste/lineage is ruined too. That is wrong. But people of the P??ar caste/lineage live in small numbers in Maturai, Tirunelv?li, and C?tta?ku?am. Without an occupation, many are engaged in the job of tailoring." >>>> >>>> >>>> I have attached a table from Ludden (1996:123) showing the status of the P??a? in Tirunelveli district in 1823. (See page 5 of the attachment. The date of 1923 shown in the table title should actually be 1823.) One can see that they were small in number but part of the large 'Sudra' category. So were barbers and washermen. None of them was/is an untouchable community. That is why K. K. Pillay (1969: 208), while discussing the use of pulaitti in Classical Tamil texts to refer to the washerwoman, said, "It is not known how the term 'Pulaitti' came to be employed to denote her, because in later times the class of washermen was not identical with that of 'Pulaiyar'." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Many of the traditional upper caste Tamil pundits of the 20th century did not distinguish between hagiography and history. For them what the Periyapur??am and the Guruparampar? Prabhavam were presenting was history. They did not see these works as propagandist texts intended to promote a specific ideology. So these Tamil pundits believed that the P??ar were untouchables of earlier Tamil society. These Tamil teachers and especially Tamil teachers in northern Tamil Nadu did not know that Tamil P??ar have continued to exist as a community even today and are suffering no untouchability. >>>> >>>> >>>> Most of these Tamil pundits were not knowledgeable about the reality-based social information available in the inscriptions. For instance, they did not know that the P??ar were engaged in singing in front of the deities in brahminic temples, training the temple women in music, and were given houses and money by royal order to perform these duties. See page 6 of the attachment for a translation of a 12th century inscription in the Tiruvi?aimarut?r temple by Orr (2000: 102). >>>> >>>> >>>> Some scholars in Southern Tamil Nadu like Irakavan (1971:78-79) were sold on the Periyapuranam's promotional view that it was the egalitarian nature of the Bhakti movement that allowed the P??ar to enter temples. (On this score, the Periyapur??am had succeeded in its promotional objective.) They had failed to note that Paripatal 3, a pre-Bhakti-movement Classical Tamil poem, calls Visnu "a good P??a? of lute" in a poem that is full of Vedic and Puranic elements. As part of the poem's adoration of Vi??u, Parip??al 3: 81-86 offers the following praise: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "You are the red-eyed one with dark complexion (V?sudeva), the black-eyed and white complexioned one (Sankar?a?a), the golden complexioned one (Pradyumna), the green complexioned one (Aniruddha), the one who dances to the left and right (of cowherd girls), the one who dances with the pot, the one who has the plough, the one who is the lord of cowherds, the one who protects, the one whose nature is not being seen, the one who never leaves the devotee's thought, the one that never dies, the one who rules the world, the poet of ancient texts, the good P???? of lute..." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> One cannot imagine this if the P??a? were untouchable before the time of Tiru?anacampantar. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> One can understand the traditional Tamil pundits' ahistorical view given their possibly limited exposure to historiography, anthropology, and comparative linguistics. But one would expect a US scholar with access to Western critical scholarship and other resources at Harvard University, University of Wisconsin-Madison, and University of California, Berkeley to critically explore and evaluate facts. Even after Orr (2000) published the translation of the Tiruvi?aimarut?r inscription shown in the attachment, Hart has not updated his views. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The facts that the Tamil Pa?aiyar were not untouchable even until 11th century and the P??ar are not untouchable even today completely invalidate Hart's theories regarding untouchability among ancient Tamils. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Moreover, if contact with a?a?ku, the sacred power, caused one to be polluted and become untouchable, T?vantikai, a brahmin woman in the Cilappatikaram, a post-ClassicalTamil epic, who got possessed by C?tta?, danced, and offered oracles would not have been appointed as a priestess by the king in a temple with Vedic sacrificial hall. (See http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2013-November/038692.html) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It is ironic that in order to buttress his views Hart is citing Dravidian Etymological Dictionary as if its groupings are true for all time and as if it gives etymological roots. He is incorrect on both counts. (Deriving etymological roots purely based on dictionary entries without considering the philological context can lead to wrong etymologies as in the case of Tamil ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' (DEDR 396), which S. Starostin derives from *??-. See http://tinyurl.com/q64ko6e . But literary and epigraphic data clearly show that ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' should be grouped with DEDR 5157. See http://www.linguist.jussieu.fr/~chevilla/FestSchrift/supa_9d.pdf for the reasons. Hart's discussion of pul as a root is just another example of the same kind of etymologizing.) Dravidian Etymology Dictionary's author, Emeneau, would be the last person to hold such views. A good example of Emeneau's genuine open-minded scholarship can be seen in Emeneau (1988), after the revised Dravidian Etymological Dictionary was published in 1984. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In other words, philological, epigraphic, and sociological data clearly refute Hart's theories of sacred power and untouchability among Tamils, which were based on a research approach with fundamental problems. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> References >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Emeneau. M. B. 1988. Proto-Dravidian *C- and Its Developments. Journal of the American Oriental Society 108, no. 2: 239--268. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Irakavan. A. 1971. Icaiyum Yalum. Tirunelveli: Kalain?? Patippakam. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hart, George L., III. 1975a. Ancient Tamil Literature: Its Scholarly Past and Future. In Essays on South India. Edited by Burton Stein, 41-63. University of Hawaii: The University Press of Hawaii. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hart, George. L., III. 1975b. The Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their Milieu and Their Sanskrit Counterparts. Berkeley: University of California Press. >>>> >>>> >>>> Hart, George L., III. 1987. Early Evidence for Caste in South India. In Dimentions of Social Life: Essays in Honor of David G. Mandelbaum. Edited by Paul Hockings. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ludden, D. E. 1996. Caste Society and Units of Production in Early Modern South India. In >>>> >>>> Institutions and Economic Change in South Asia: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives. Edited by Burton Stein and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, 105-133. New Delhi: Oxford University Press. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Orr, Leslie. 2000. Donors, Daughters, and Devotees of God: Temple Women in Medieval Tamilnadu. New York: Oxford University Press. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Pillay, K. K. 1969. A Social History of the Tamils Part I. Madras: University of Madras. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thurston, E. 1909. Castes and Tribes of Southern India. Vol. 6. Madras: Government Press. >>>> >>>> ----------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Palaniappan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Sat Nov 30 18:03:59 2013 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 13 13:03:59 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis Message-ID: <24755391.1385834639427.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: