From rajam at earthlink.net  Mon Dec  2 03:26:34 2013
From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 13 22:26:34 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis
Message-ID: <21051701.1385954794467.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

George, I agree about the evidence concerning sutteee and widow asceticism. But I don't agree about the stupid "magical" stuff about women's breasts and yucky menstruation! Gosh, I wish I had used those sacred magical powers when I was young and potent!!! Your writings make me feel as if the whole area of the Tamil land was impacted with dangerous power lurking every where! I wonder how any simple person would have lived there! Everything sounds like a "kuDukuDuppANdi" type of saying -- sacred magical power, death, blood, ... gory gory! 

Also, the analysis about "low-born" vs. "high-born" is debatable. You see, people like me who know this literature quite well are not fortunate enough to have the luxury of the time and financial resources that you and the drummers have in order to whip up an article in a few minutes! Some day I'll do it. Meantime, if people want to read my response to your theory on "aNangku" let them visit my website at: www.letsgrammar.org

Meantime, my request ... PLEASE, kindly, you (and your drummers) do not perpetuate the theory that women are "impure," some people are "low-born," ... so on and so forth. In my view as a brahmin, some of you are "low-born" and of "low-caste." Men are "impure" and even more dangerous than women for expelling that horrible white stuff called semen which makes a woman go through pregancay and enatiling horror!!Read me?

Thanks,
Rajam


-----Original Message-----
>From: George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu>
>Sent: Nov 30, 2013 8:41 AM
>To: Rajam Ramamurti <rajam at earthlink.net>
>Cc: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>, Mani Manivannan <mmanivannan at gmail.com>, "C.R. Selvakumar" <c.r.selvakumar at gmail.com>, iraamaki Krishnan <iraamaki at bsnl.in>, Vaidehi Herbert <kavini100 at gmail.com>, Hari Krishnan <hari.harikrishnan at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis
>
>All I have done is to give evidence that I think shows a fairly coherent belief system in Sangam literature that is consistent with what happens in villages today (or at least in villages 50 years ago).  For example, we find very clear descriptions of suttee, of widow asceticism, of a?a?ku being localized in the breasts in Sangam Literature.  Then we have the Cilappatik?ram in which a widow burns down Madurai by tearing off her breast.  And today we still have widow asceticism.  Until about a century ago, low-caste women were not allowed to wear blouses to cover their breasts. These seem to me to be linked by a system of belief.  The same is true with the communities found in Sangam Literature, I believe.  These are similar to castes ? whether one calls them castes or not is immaterial.  They were almost certainly endogamous; in fact, Trautmann?s Dravidian Kinship shows that cross-cousin marriage was the norm in all of the Deccan for millennia (a fact confirmed by Ku?untokai 40).  The poems, in my opinion, indicate that Dalits existed when they were written and that they served as intermediaries with the spirit world, which they continue to do today.  It is my opinion that village culture  and beliefs in much of South Asia have changed very slowly over the millennia
>
>I have tried to give evidence for these views.  Many have disagreed, though I have not found any criticism that for me has been persuasive.  I would not at all mind being proved wrong, but in my analysis, the basic belief system in Tamil villages has persisted for at least two millennia.  It is up to other scholars to accept these views or reject them.  George
>
>On Nov 29, 2013, at 9:46 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> well ... I don't really care what the belief systems are elsewhere now. currently, i'm only interested in those socio-anthro analyses of Old Tamil literature, which to me sound very stupid and illogical and highly extrapolated not adhering to the litearture. i wonder how many of those socio-anthro folks really knew to read/write/understand Tamil, especially OLd Tamil literature! in fact, in my view, Sanskritists do a very good job -- of actually learning the language and grammar! s.indian analysts rely heavily on the dictionaries! ;-) 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu>
>>> Sent: Nov 29, 2013 8:26 PM
>>> To: Rajam Ramamurti <rajam at earthlink.net>
>>> Cc: palaniappa at aol.com, Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>, Mani Manivannan <mmanivannan at gmail.com>, "C.R. Selvakumar" <c.r.selvakumar at gmail.com>, iraamaki Krishnan <iraamaki at bsnl.in>, kaavini100 at gmail.com
>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis
>>> 
>>> Thanks, Rajam, for giving a link to my article.  I hope people will read it and consider it ? perhaps so much controversy can stimulate some more research.  As for the article, I really don?t think it says anything that is not generally known by anthropologists who study South India.  I was recently speaking to a social worker in Haryana (an Indian, not a westerner) who was perplexed that women who had given birth are severely segregated and are not given access to medical care because of superstitious beliefs (flow of blood).  She said sometimes these women die, and that it very difficult to change the villagers? mentality and overcome their very strongly held beliefs.  The customs regarding widows are well-known, and suttee is mentioned in Sangam literature. It is my contention that unenlightened beliefs that result in the exploitation and mistreatment of women and others need to be understood if there is to be any chance of changing those beliefs and the conduct they result in.  Unfortunately, this is very difficult, not only in India but elsewhere.  Belief systems can be quite toxic for people caught up in them.  There are endless examples of this all over the world, including the US.
>>> 
>>> George
>>> 
>>> On Nov 29, 2013, at 7:38 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I agree with what Palaniappan has said here. George DID write/say that some of those Tamilians (Panan, Paraiyans, ...) were of low caste and untouchables. Quite alright if some westerners trying to study an ancient culture hold their own exotic view but what irks someone like me (who has been studying and researching these old texts for 4+ decades) is that some modern "Tamil enthusiasts" (not proficient in Old Tamil) have been going around like little drummer boys rha-ma-pum-pumming GH's glorious statements and putting down every caste in Tamilnadu, and this behavior is highly insensitive and irritating. As a brahmin, I should feel elated to support these drummer boys' low-caste vs high-caste theory, right? But I don't! George's article (http://tamilnation.co/caste/hart.pdf) is highly insensitive with inaccuracies and loaded with speculations from a non-Tamil westerner's point of view. If people have a question like "Is there a ghost in that tree?" the researcher starts with a sentence, "In that ghost-infested tree ... ." What kind of logic is that? In fact, it would be very hard to review G's article from an objective point of view, especially for a native speaker of Tamil like me. Well, my intent now is not to engage in a war (George and I are good friends) but to point out that articles about a non-native culture can hurt the natives. Could I get away making some stupidly sweeping remark that the First Family are slaves? Or, could I question the belief of the immacculate conception? While that is the case, why is it so easy for non-natives to speculate and concoct exotic stupid theories about other cultures -- money? power? arrogance? obnoxiousness? G's articles make me feel like a 'walking virus box' loaded with dangerous sacred power! Please know that men are also "impure" from a woman's perspective. 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks and regards,
>>>> Rajam
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: palaniappa at aol.com
>>>>> Sent: Nov 27, 2013 6:00 PM
>>>>> To: indology at list.indology.info
>>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Let me address the second part of George Hart's post first.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hart said, "I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not." Unfortunately this is not true. Here is what Hart (1987: 484) said: 
>>>>> "A few centuries after the anthologies, an untouchable was not allowed into a Vi??u temple, a practice shown by the exclusion of Tirupp????v?r, a P??a?, from the worship of the god inside the temple proper." (emphasis mine)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Another version of the same article available at http://tamilnation.co/caste/hart.pdf shows on page 32 the same statement. In the same article, on page 5, we find the following:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "We see, then, that the word pulai carries some opprobrium, and that it is used to refer to several groups that are evidently at the bottom of society?washermen, drummers, bards (P??a?s), a woman who becomes possessed, and the man who officiates at the funeral ceremony. (emphasis mine)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Similarly, on page 23, Hart says:
>>>>> "Obviously, the lowercastes themselves felt that the power they dealt with was dangerous and had tobe carefully controlled?hence the plethora of untouchable castes, each with thefitness to do a certain task." (emphasis mine)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hart says on pp. 7-8:
>>>>> ?Two poems, Porunar???uppa?ai 284 and Akam 196 mention that P??a?s would catch fish?one supposes if they were unable to make a living as performers?The performers, at least, lived on the margins of society, and were largelydependent on the largesse of those who were above them. We have yet to considerthe occupation of the performers in detail, but several things are clear: theywere associated with the wilderness, at least to an extent; and in addition toperforming, at least some of them caughtfish?also a low and demeaning occupation.? (emphasis mine)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Later in discussingthe impact of Brahmins on the Tamil society, Hart says on pp.36-37:
>>>>> ?The untouchables seem to have become lowerthan they had been before, and to have been surrounded with morerestrictions?no doubt as a result of the fact that king was no longer sodependent upon them (as he now had the Brahmins and their Vedic rites), andthat the small king was no longer as important as he once was, having beenreplaced by the newer gods with their Brahmin attendants. In other words, thefunction of the untouchables nolonger included serving kings?a function that must have enhanced their lowstatus?but was limited to such mundane and undignified tasks as cutting hair,washing clothes, and catching fish.?(emphasis mine)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> When one sees the above two quotes, it is obvious that Hart is characterizing the P??ar as untouchables. I cannot understand how Hart can say that he never claimed P??a?s were Dalits! 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regarding Hart's statement, "Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples,"  I would appreciate if Hart could provide some historical evidence (other than hagiographies) such as an inscription or traveler statement that point to P??ar being denied entry into temples.  
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> As for Hart's statement, "And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them,"  here is some historical information regarding their social status. Page 1 of the attachment shows an excerpt from the Tanjavur temple inscription of R?jar?ja I of ca. 1014 CE (South Indian Inscriptions, volume 2, no. 66). The amount of share given to different groups indicates how the C??a state valued their services. From the highlighted portions, one can see that each barber received half a share, each washerman received one share, and each P??a? received 1.5 shares. (Singers of Tamil songs and Sanskrit songs too are shown as receiving 1.5 shares each elsewhere in the inscription.) The glossing of P??a? as 'tailor' is a mistake by the editor who has used the late 19th or early 20th century profession of the P??ar. In the inscription, based on the title C?kkai, we have to consider them as Sanskrit theater artists. The highlighted portion of page 2 of the attachment shows a page from Inscriptions in the Pudukkottai State Translated into English, Part 2, by K. R. Srinivasa Ayyar (IPS). It shows that just as in the Classical Tamil period, the P??a? sang the victory of the king at the time of C??a Kul?ttu?ka? III in the beginning of the 13th century and was honored for it. Similarly, the highlighted portion of page 3 of the attachment shows an inscription of Cuntara P??tiya? issued a few years after the C??a inscription. This inscription shows the king giving the C??a crown made of gold to a P??a?. Moreover, the secular text, Kali?kattuppara?i, describes the P??ar performing in the C??a court songs composed by the king. This indicates that the relationship between the P??ar and the kings was almost the same as it was in the Classical Tamil period. Given this situation, it is impossible to accept the low social status of the P??ar as given in the hagiographies. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> The modern social status of the P??ar is discussed in the book N???r Varal??u (1978) by Prof. M?cas Po??aiy?, former Professor of Tamil at American College, Madurai, who includes them among a number of groups that have become Ve????ar. (See pages 4 and 5 of the attachment. While he is correct with respect to the modern social status of the P??ar, as I said in the earlier post, I disagree with some aspects of the social history he presents.) This is confirmed by pages 6 and 7 of the attachment which present pages from a newspaper of a federation of Ve????ar castes. At the bottom right of page 7 of the attachment one can see an advertisement by the P??ar association.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Palaniappan
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu>
>>>>> To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
>>>>> Sent: Sun, Nov 24, 2013 4:16 pm
>>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> In my opinion, the poems speak for themselves.  When the Sangam poems say someone was of despised birth and we see the same group among the Dalits today, that must mean they were Dalits then, I would think.  It would be very nice if Sangam society was casteless and we could point to it as an exemplar of what India would be like without the Brahmins or whatever group is supposed to have dreamed up the caste system.  The fact remains that caste is spread from Nepal to Sri Lanka and from Assam to Pakistan among many ethnic groups and religions.  I think it must be very ancient, and almost certainly pre-Aryan, as the Vedic Aryans had nothing whatsoever like the j?ti system.  But however that may be, the Sangam poems specifically mention caste many times.  No doubt Palaniappan and I will disagree on this forever, but I think it is important to state that I am not at all persuaded by his arguments.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not.  Apparently, they occupied (and still occupy) a position somewhat above the Dalits, as they stayed in the homes of rich people, sang for them, and also served as go-betweens between rich men and their women.  And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them. Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples.  
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> If the poems don?t mean what they say, then there may not have been caste in Sangam times in TN.  If they do, then it is very difficult to argue against the existence of caste, in my opinion. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> George
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Nov 24, 2013, at 12:27 PM, palaniappa at aol.com wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I agree completely with Rajam's statement, "There was no indication of "untouchability" in the Tamil society as reflected in early Tamil poems."
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Since George Hart has criticized my findings in his post, I would like to say that the contents of Hart's post are nothing new. All these have been addressed in my paper available at http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf . We have also discussed this in Indology in 2009. Here are the last two posts of the Indology discussion http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033485.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033486.html . 
>>>>> So instead of going over material already covered, I shall discuss something I have not discussed so far. I shall summarize the crux of my views briefly at first. Those who are interested in the details can read further. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> For almost four decades, George Hart has propounded his views on the concept of dangerous sacred power,a?a?ku, among the Tamils and the practice of untouchability that resulted from contact with the sacred power. According to Hart, the P??a?s and Pa?aiya?s have always been the lowest castes because they were polluted because they came in contact with that sacred power.  The only problem is that, as I had mentioned in 2009, there is clear epigraphic evidence that the Tamil Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) were not untouchables as late as the 11th century and Tamil P??ar (plural of the P??a?) are not untouchables even today. These facts completely invalidate Hart's theories. The reason Hart came to a conclusion diametrically opposite to mine is that his research methodology had major errors of commission and omission.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Those who are interested in more details can read on below. 
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regarding the power of a?a?ku, Hart (1975a: 43) wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> "This power had to be rigidly controlled. As a result, religious rites were carried out by the lowest castes: the Pa?aiya?s , the P??a?s, the Tu?iya?s, and the V?la?s...The V?la?, who is even today found among the Pa?aiya?s of Kerala, would dance ecstatically as he was possessed by Murugan, an indigenous god...The Pa?aiya?, the P??a?, and the Tu?iya? would each play a special instrument which was thought to be inhabited by a sacred power and which was used for various ritual purposes. The pollution which is attached to the low castes is thus a legacy of indigenous Dravidian religion."
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hart's views of Tamil untouchability and sacred power are inseparable. And for his whole theory to have any validity, the Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) and the P??ar (plural of the P??a?) he has mentioned above should be untouchables or lowest castes. If even one group is not untouchable, his whole theory collapses. I have already mentioned that the Pa?aiyar were not untouchables in the 11th century. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hart (1975b:144) also says the following in connection with the Pa?aiyar:
>>>>> "Elsewhere, the drum played for the king in the morning is the muracu (Pu?. 61, 397; Ai?. 448) . While there is nowhere any indication of who played the muracu, it is not unlikely that a subcaste of the Pa?aiya?s had that office, especially as one of the modern subdivisions of that caste is called Muracu."2 [emphasis mine]
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Footnote 2 reads:
>>>>> Edgar T. Thurston, Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Madras, 1909), VI:80
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> But, as shown in page 1 of the attachment, what Thurston (1909:80) really said was: 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "At the census, 1891, 348 sub-divisions were returned, of which the following were strongest in point of numbers:- Amma found chiefly in Tanjore and Madura;...; Morasu (drum) in Salem;...". [emphasis mine]
>>>>> 
>>>>> While Hart's change of -su to -cu may be understandable in terms of the Tamil transliteration system, the change of the radical vowel -o- to -u-,  which changed the name of the Pa?aiyar subdivision matching the word for 'drum' used in the Classical Tamil texts he cited, was problematic. This change could not have been a typographical error since in a later publication Hart (1987: 475) also says:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "One of the modern subdivisions of the Pa?aiya? caste is named "Muracu" (Thurston and Rangachari 1909: VI. 80), and it seems possible that this is a very ancient division." [emphasis mine]
>>>>> 
>>>>> In light of Hart's suggestion of the possible antiquity of this Pa?aiyar subdivision, there is some interesting information about the Morasu subdivision not mentioned by Hart (1975b) and Hart (1987). As can be seen from the highlighted portion in page 2 of the attachment, Thurston (1909: 81) says the following:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "It has been suggested to me that the Morasu Paraiyans, included in the above list are Canarese Holeyas, who have settled in the Tamil country." [emphasis mine]
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Even more interesting is the situation with respect to the P???r. Hart (1975b: 120) states:
>>>>> 
>>>>> "The low status of bards may also be inferred from the fact that several centuries after the anthologies, Tirupp????v?r, who was a P??a? by caste, was considered to be so low that he was not allowed into the temple."
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> (The story of Tirupp????v?r occurs in different medieval Vai??ava hagiographical works such as the ???yirappa?i Guruparampar?prabh?vam. While the Vai??ava hagiographical works depict the P?nar saint Tirupp????v?r as not being allowed to enter the temple, the Periyapur??am, the 12th century ?aiva haigiographical work, portrayed the P??ar saint Tirun?laka??ar as originally standing outside the temple and being brought inside due to intervention by ?iva Himself. In another instance, the brahmin saint Tiru???acampantar is said to have arranged for Tirun?laka?tar to sleep inside another brahmin saint's house.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hart (1975b: 158) also stated:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "The Pa?aiya? is found in Tamilnad, Kerala, and the Kota-speaking areas, while the P??a? is found in modern Kerala and Orissa, and in parts of ancient North India, where P??a meant a low-class bard."
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> (The sources for the above statement were entries 3319 and 3351 in the first edition of Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (1960), which in turn, relied on Tamil Lexicon and  A Malayalam and English Dictionary by Gundert for information related to Tamil and Malayalam words respectively.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> As one can see, Hart (1975b) had left out any mention of the Tamil P??a? in present day Tamil Nadu. Based on the two statements of Hart quoted above, it seems Hart was not aware of the existence of the P??ar in present day Tamil Nadu. Otherwise, he would not have had to rely on medieval hagiography to ascertain the 'low' status of the P???r. Here lay a fundamental problem with Hart's research approach. He was producing sweeping anthropological conclusions with insufficient knowledge of people he was writing about.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> All Hart had to do was to turn a few pages in Thurston (1909), which he had anyway consulted in the case of the Pa?aiyar.  Thurston (1909) spells P??a? as P????, with the second vowel being long ?. This spelling variation cannot be a reason for disregarding the entry. After all, Tamil Lexicon has entries connecting both variants as given below.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ?????? p??a?, n. < ????. [M. p?na.] 1. An ancient class of Tamil bards and minstrels; ????????? ???????. ???????????????? (????. ??. 91). 2. See ??????. (W.)  
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ?????? p????, n. < ??????. Man of the tailor caste; ?????????? ????????
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Note that the Tamil Lexicon derives 'P????' from 'P??a?'.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> The entry in Thurston (1909: 29-42) on the P???? is a long one discussing both the Tamil P???? as well as the Malayalam P????. The entry opens with a very brief discussion of the Tamil P???? while discussion of the Malayalam P???? takes up the bulk of the entry. But it is the brief discussion of the Tamil P???? that Hart should have taken into account.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> As can be seen in page 3 of the attachment, the entry on the P????s opens with the following statement.  "The Tamil P?n?ns are said, in the Census Report, 1901, to be also called M?stris. They are "tailors among Tamils in Madura and Tinnevelly. They employ Br?hmans and Vell?las as pur?hits. Though barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them, they are allowed to enter Hindu temples."   Later in the entry, as shown in page 4 of the attachment, in regards to the P????s of Travancore, Thurston (1909: 33) says, "For the following account of the P?n?ns of Travancore, I am indebted to Mr. N. Subramani Aiyar. The word is of Tamil origin, and means a tailor. The title taken by them is Panikkan, the usual honorific appellation of most of the industrial castes of Malabar. They are supposed to be one with the P?n?ns of the Tamil country though much below them in the social scale."  
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> As Gundert's dictionary notes, in Southern Tamil usage P??a? could indicate a bard as well as a tailor.
>>>>> 
>>>>> ??????? p??a? T. M. (T. ????? = ???? melody). A caste of musicians, actors & players; in So. T. also tailors B., necromancers D. (= ???????????, ?????????????, ??????). ??' ????? ???? ???? prov. ??'???? ??????????????? ???????? Bhr. ? ?????????? V1. a caste of slaves.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Based on Tamil Lexicon and Gundert's dictionary, it is clear that P?n?n and P?nan are only variants of the same word. After all, there is no separate entry for P??a?s of Kerala in Thurston (1909).  Hart should have investigated if the P?n?n/P?nan, the tailor, and P?n?n/P?nan, the bard, were related in any way.  If he had conducted some fieldwork like anthropologists do before writing about different communities, he would have quickly realized that the tailors were from the same community as earlier bards.  At least if he had done a careful literature review, he would have gotten the true picture of the P?nans. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> For instance, the Arumpatavurai commentary for the Cilappatik?ram glosses tu??ak?rar in Cilappatik?ram (5.32) as P??ar. Also, as has been pointed out by Aiyar ([1924] 1999: 109), Travancore king B?lar?ma Varma's Sanskrit work, B?lar?ma Bharatam of the 18th century, presents as a tailor the bard P??apattiran of Madurai mentioned in the opening poem of the 11th Tirumu?ai of the ?aiva canon. Irakavan (1971: 79), a 20th century scholar, stated:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ????????????????. ??????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????. ???? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ??????? ????? ????? ????????????. ??? ????. ?????, ?????????? ????????????? ????????????????? ?????, ????????????, ???????????? ????? ????????? ???????? ???????????.???????????? ???? ????? ?????? ???????????????????."
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Here is a translation of the above quote.
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Many wonder if the P??ar caste/lineage exists today. The P??ar caste/lineage has not perished. It exists in the P???iya country even today. Some say that with the disappearance of the lute, the P??ar caste/lineage is ruined too. That is wrong.  But people of the P??ar caste/lineage live in small numbers in Maturai, Tirunelv?li, and C?tta?ku?am. Without an occupation, many are engaged in the job of tailoring." 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have attached a table from Ludden (1996:123) showing the status of the P??a? in Tirunelveli district in 1823. (See page 5 of the attachment. The date of 1923 shown in the table title should actually be 1823.) One can see that they were small in number but part of the large 'Sudra' category.  So were barbers and washermen. None of them was/is an untouchable community.  That is why K. K. Pillay (1969: 208), while discussing the use of pulaitti in Classical Tamil texts to refer to the washerwoman, said, "It is not known how the term 'Pulaitti' came to be employed to denote her, because in later times the class of washermen was not identical with that of 'Pulaiyar'."
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Many of the traditional upper caste Tamil pundits of the 20th century did not distinguish between hagiography and history. For them what the Periyapur??am and the Guruparampar? Prabhavam were presenting was history. They did not see these works as propagandist texts intended to promote a specific ideology. So these Tamil pundits believed that the P??ar were untouchables of earlier Tamil society. These Tamil teachers and especially Tamil teachers in northern Tamil Nadu did not know that Tamil P??ar have continued to exist as a community even today and are suffering no untouchability. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Most of these Tamil pundits were not knowledgeable about the reality-based social information available in the inscriptions. For instance, they did not know that  the P??ar were engaged in singing in front of the deities in brahminic temples, training the temple women in music, and were given houses and money by royal order to perform these duties. See page 6 of the attachment for a translation of a 12th century inscription in the Tiruvi?aimarut?r temple by Orr (2000: 102).
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Some scholars in Southern Tamil Nadu like Irakavan (1971:78-79) were sold on the Periyapuranam's promotional view that it was the egalitarian nature of the Bhakti movement that allowed the P??ar to enter temples. (On this score, the Periyapur??am had succeeded in its promotional objective.) They had failed to note that Paripatal 3, a pre-Bhakti-movement Classical Tamil poem, calls Visnu "a good P??a? of lute" in a poem that is full of Vedic and Puranic elements. As part of the poem's adoration of Vi??u, Parip??al 3: 81-86 offers the following praise:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "You are the red-eyed one with dark complexion (V?sudeva), the black-eyed and white complexioned one (Sankar?a?a), the golden complexioned one (Pradyumna), the green complexioned one (Aniruddha), the one who dances to the left and right (of cowherd girls), the one who dances with the pot, the one who has the plough, the one who is the lord of cowherds, the one who protects, the one whose nature is not being seen, the one who never leaves the devotee's thought, the one that never dies, the one who rules the world, the poet of ancient texts, the good P???? of lute..." 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> One cannot imagine this if the P??a? were untouchable before the time of Tiru?anacampantar.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> One can understand the traditional Tamil pundits' ahistorical view given their possibly limited exposure to historiography, anthropology, and comparative linguistics. But one would expect a US scholar with access to Western critical scholarship and other resources at Harvard University, University of Wisconsin-Madison, and University of California, Berkeley to critically explore and evaluate facts.  Even after Orr (2000) published the translation of the Tiruvi?aimarut?r inscription shown in the attachment, Hart has not updated his views.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> The facts that the Tamil Pa?aiyar were not untouchable even until 11th century and the P??ar are not untouchable even today completely invalidate Hart's theories regarding untouchability among ancient Tamils.  
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Moreover, if contact with a?a?ku, the sacred power, caused one to be polluted and become untouchable, T?vantikai, a brahmin woman in the Cilappatikaram, a post-ClassicalTamil epic, who got possessed by C?tta?, danced, and offered oracles would not have been appointed as a priestess by the king in a temple with Vedic sacrificial hall. (See http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2013-November/038692.html)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> It is ironic that in order to buttress his views Hart is citing Dravidian Etymological Dictionary as if its groupings are true for all time and as if it gives etymological roots. He is incorrect on both counts. (Deriving etymological roots purely based on dictionary entries without considering the philological context can lead to wrong etymologies as in the case of Tamil ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' (DEDR 396), which S. Starostin derives from *??-. See http://tinyurl.com/q64ko6e . But literary and epigraphic data clearly show that ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' should be grouped with DEDR 5157. See http://www.linguist.jussieu.fr/~chevilla/FestSchrift/supa_9d.pdf for the reasons. Hart's discussion of pul as a root is just another example of the same kind of etymologizing.)  Dravidian Etymology Dictionary's author, Emeneau, would be the last person to hold such views. A good example of Emeneau's genuine open-minded scholarship can be seen in Emeneau (1988),  after the revised Dravidian Etymological Dictionary was published in 1984. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> In other words, philological, epigraphic, and sociological data clearly refute Hart's theories of sacred power and untouchability among Tamils, which were based on a research approach with fundamental problems. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> References
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Emeneau. M. B. 1988. Proto-Dravidian *C- and Its Developments. Journal of the American Oriental Society 108, no. 2: 239--268.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Irakavan. A. 1971. Icaiyum Yalum. Tirunelveli: Kalain?? Patippakam.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hart, George L., III. 1975a. Ancient Tamil Literature: Its Scholarly Past and Future. In Essays on South India. Edited by Burton Stein, 41-63. University of Hawaii: The University Press of Hawaii.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hart, George. L., III. 1975b. The Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their Milieu and Their Sanskrit Counterparts. Berkeley: University of California Press. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hart, George L., III. 1987. Early Evidence for Caste in South India. In Dimentions of Social Life: Essays in Honor of David G. Mandelbaum. Edited by Paul Hockings. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ludden, D. E. 1996. Caste Society and Units of Production in Early Modern South India. In
>>>>> 
>>>>> Institutions and Economic Change in South Asia: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives. Edited by Burton Stein and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, 105-133. New Delhi: Oxford University Press.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Orr, Leslie. 2000. Donors, Daughters, and Devotees of God: Temple Women in Medieval Tamilnadu. New York: Oxford University Press.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pillay, K. K. 1969. A Social History of the Tamils Part I. Madras: University of Madras.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thurston, E. 1909. Castes and Tribes of Southern India. Vol. 6.  Madras: Government Press. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Palaniappan
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>> 
>> 
>






From audrey.truschke at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 22:41:15 2013
From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 13 14:41:15 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Help Translating Compound
Message-ID: <CAKq175pOaezhy9xMfDUvuu6TYViL0Wndbh5cTBpVL7+vCtoO-g@mail.gmail.com>

Forwarded at the request of Harry Spier--

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Harry Spier <vasishtha.spier at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 2:30 PM
Subject: Forward to Indology list
To: indology-owner at list.indology.info


Would it be possible to forward the following message to  the Indology list.
-----------
Dear list members I'm having trouble translating the following compound:
 satatasiddhasaud?min?m

in the fourth verse of the  ripurasundar?stotram

kadambavanamadhyag?? kanakama??alopasthit?m
?a?amburuhav?sin?? *satatasiddhasaud?min?m |*
vi?ambitajap?ruci? vikacacandrac???ma?im
trilocanaku?umbin?? tripurasundar?m ??raye ||4||

Any help would greatly be appreciated.
Harry Spier
vasishtha.spier at gmail.com


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From palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Dec  3 06:25:53 2013
From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 13 01:25:53 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis
Message-ID: <8D0BE07A67D51F3-224C-A15A5@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>





George Hart said, "In my opinion, the poems speak for themselves.  When the Sangam poems say someone was of despised birth and we see the same group among the Dalits today, that must mean they were Dalits then, I would think." 


I apologize for the long response below necessitated by Hart's statement.  However, I summarize the key points very briefly at first to be followed by details later.



To put it in a nutshell, Hart's interpretations of what the poems speak suffer from very serious methodological problems. His views are based on his own imagination or data from a Malayalam novel or social conditions of the 20th century. His knowledge regarding modern and medieval Tamil society is very inadequate. Unfortunately, based on this inadequate knowledge, he has imagined an early Tamil society which is not supported by data from the poems themselves.


Those who are interested in the details can read on below.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ON DESPISED BIRTH
Unfortunately, there are other scholars, who do not understand the poems as Hart does. Hart (1975b: 34) described Nacci??rkki?iyar, a 14th century Brahmin commentator from Madurai, as "perhaps the greatest of the medieval commentators on the Tolk?ppiyam." Nacci??rkki?iyar has also authored commentaries on Classical Tamil texts  such as Kalittokai and Pattupp??tu. Page 1 of the attachment shows that according to Nacci??rkki?iyar, the royal funerary priest in Pu?. 363 mentioned by Hart (1975b: 82) as one 'of despised birth' was a Brahmin. Nacci??rkki?iyar also allows for the possibility of the same priest being a barber. (This is in Nacci??rkki?iyar's commentary for C?vakacint?ma?i 2984.)  Neither of them is considered to be despised or untouchable in the Tamil society. 


What is most distressing is that Hart's interpretation is often based on what the poems do not 'speak'.  Here are some examples. 


ISSUES RELATED TO SACRED POWER
Hart (1975b: 101) said, " An inauspicious state of a woman's powers is brought about by her fall from chastity. The ancient Tamil poems nowhere describe this eventuality, as they are idealized; however, it is well-treated by a modern Malayalam novel, Chemmeen, by Thakazhi Sivasankara Pillai, about the life of the fishermen of the Malabar coast, which has changed little in the last two thousand years." [emphasis mine] When the ancient Tamil poems do not speak, Hart substituted the speech of a 20th century Malayalam novel! 


Hart (1975b: 124) said, "It is true the V?la? is never called low or base in the poems, but in modern Kerala members of one of the subcastes of Pa?aiya?s are called V?la?s. One of their jobs is to tell the future, like the V?la?s of ancient Tamil literature, from whom they are no doubt descended. Furthermore, it has been seen that in Pu?. 259 a pulaitti, or base woman, is possessed by Muruka? and shakes, much like the V?la?, and that, in Pu?. 335, the Ka?ampa?, who was probably a priest of Muruka?, is classed among the low castes. In light of this evidence, it is likely that the V?la? was in fact considered a low person." [emphasis mine] Pu?. 335 does not say that the Ka?ampa? was a low caste person. That was purely Hart's own interpretation. Hart also did not consider T?vanti, the Brahmin woman in the Cilappatik?ram, being possessed by C?tta? and shaking.  Data from the Cilappatik?ram was a lot closer in time to the Pu?an????u than any 20th century data. 


Hart (1975b: 125) said, "In the Pa??i?app?lai, one of the Pattupp???u, line 77, the outer streets of a town (pu?acc?ri) are said to be inhabited by fishermen. It is quite likely that then, as now, the fishermen lived in the outer parts of the city because they were considered of low caste, probably because they were infected by the spirits of the fish they killed." [emphasis mine]  That the fishermen lived on the seashore does not call for any judgement about their caste status. The poem does not say that the fishermen were of 'low caste' or were "infected by the spirits of the fish they killed." This is Hart's own imagination.


P??AR'S RIGHT TO CULTIVATE
Hart (1975b: 140) said, "P??a?s who could not make their living by performing would catch fish, residing in their own part of the city and exchanging some of the fish for paddy (Pu?. 348; Ak. 196; Ai?. 47, 48, 49, 111). This confirms their low status: bards were allowed the low task of catching fish, but they were not allowed to raise paddy." There is nothing in the poems that 'confirms their low status' or talks about any prohibition against their raising paddy. This is again Hart's own interpretation. It should be noted that inscription ARE 476 of 1962-63 mentions a P??a? enjoying K?r??mai (right of cultivation) even in the P???iya kingdom of the more Sanskritized time of the 13th century. 


ISSUES RELATED TO PA?AIYAR
Hart (1975b: 143) said, "To a very different category than the P??a?, the concert-giver, and the dancer, belonged the man who played the ki?ai drum. It is likely that one of the names of the ki?ai drummer was Pa?aiya?, and that the modern Pa?aiya? is his descendant. Thus Pu?. 388 says that a ki?ai player plays the pa?ai (a generic term for drum), while in Pu?. 371, a suppliant packs up his pa?ai, goes to the king, and plays the ta??ri (another name for the ki?ai). In Pu?. 335, the Pa?aiya? clan is distinguished from the P??a? and Tu?iya? clan, while in the Pu?apporu?ve?p?m?lai, a later work, a verse mentions the Ki?aiya?, Tu?iya?, and P??a? as three different clans; thus it seems natural to identify the Ki?aiya? and the Pa?aiya?." [emphasis mine] There is nothing 'likely' in the poem about the Ki?aiya? being the Pa?aiya?. 


If just because a ki?ai player plays the pa?ai, he is supposed to be of the Pa?aiyar community, then a dancer who plays the pa?ai (Aka. 151.10) should also be a considered to be a member of the Pa?aiyar community. But Hart considers the dancers to be of a different category from that of the Ki?aiya?. But, then agricultural laborers played pa?ai (Maturaikk??ci 262), and the K??iyar (actors/concert givers) also were described as having pa?ai (Maturaikk??ci 523). Hart (1975b: 141) said, "It seems likely that the K??iya?s and Vayiriya?s were subcastes of the P??a?s...". So are the dancers and actors/concert givers, who are supposed to be different from the Ki?aiya?s, Pa?aiyar too? Comparing the lists of people in Pu?. 335 and the Pu?apporu?ve?p?m?lai to conclude that the Ki?aiya? and the Pa?aiya? were one and the same is like comparing apples and oranges. One listed the residents of a particular region. Another listed the people, who got shares of the spoils of war. In the final analysis, actually there is nothing to support Hart's equation of the Ki?aiya? with the Pa?aiya?. 


Hart also wanted to link the modern Pa?aiyar with those who played the royal drum in ancient Tamil society. He went to extraordinary lengths to make this linkage when the poems did not do so! This is what Hart (1975b: 144) said: 
"Elsewhere, the drum played for the king in the morning is the muracu (Pu?. 61, 397; Ai?. 448) . While there is nowhere any indication of who played the muracu, it is not unlikely that a subcaste of the Pa?aiya?s had that office, especially as one of the modern subdivisions of that caste is called Muracu."2 [emphasis mine]


As we discussed earlier, Hart not only changed the radical vowel of 'Morasu' reported by Thurston, which resulted in the name of the P??aiyar division matching the name of the drum in the poems mentioned above but also suggested that "it seems possible that this is a very ancient division." This suggestion extended the status of untouchability from the early 20th century Pa?aiyar to the ancient players of the drum. But then an inconvenient suggestion that the Morasu division members  were Holeya immigrants from Kannada-speaking region was mentioned by Thurston. The change of Kannada p- to h- occurred from the 10th century CE. So the early immigrant Holeyas (<Poleyas) could not have become the Morasu division before the 10th century, pulling the rug out from under Hart's assumption of them being an ancient division of the Pa?aiyar. This Holeya immigration issue was not discussed by Hart (1975b) or Hart (1987)!


In the whole Classical Tamil corpus, the word 'pa?aiya?' occurs only once (Pu?a. 335). The poem does not speak of the Pa?aiyar being a caste or being untouchable or being funerary priests. Early medieval Tamil inscriptions show that people with the name Pa?aiya? were high status individuals. Page 2 of the attachment shows an individual named C?kkai Pa?aiya??r of the 7th century was a warrior in the Pallava army one of whose subordinates was killed in whose memory a herostone was erected. It is important to note the Tamil honorific suffix -?r in the name Pa?aiya??r. Also the title C?kkai suggests he could have been qualified as a Sanskrit dramatist. This person could not have been an untouchable. Page 3 of the attachment shows a person by the name P?va? Pa?aiya? of the 9th century who donated some land for Vedic study in a temple. He was an  A?ukkar of the P???iya? king. The editor of the inscription called the position 'bodyguard'. But the position of A?ukkar could refer to an official position enjoying the highest confidence of the king since the general Para?c?ti of Pallava Narasimhavarman I was also referred to as A?ukkar in the Periyapur??am.  Page 4 of the attachment shows a 13th century inscription in the Coimbatore area who was a Ve????a? (which stands for Ve????a?, an upper caste non-Brahmin) with the name "Pa?aiya? Pa?aiya???a N???uk K?mu??a?". Similarly, page 5 shows another Ve????a? (written as Ve????a?)  with the name Ca?aiya? N?riy?? Pa?aiya? in the 14th century. Some argue that the name Pa?aiya? is only the proper name of individuals and not the name of a community. Even if that were true, if the name Paraiya? was associated with untouchability from very ancient times, what would be the motivation for any non-untouchable family to give their child the name Pa?aiya?? 


BARDS' SOCIAL STATUS COMPARED TO POETS' 
Another favorite claim of Hart is that the bards were of low caste and that the Pulava?s (the poets) were of high caste. Referring to the authors of Classical Tamil poetry, Hart (1975b: 148) says, "Like all writers, the authors of this poetry modeled their compositions on forms with which they were familiar. The only models  they had were the oral poems being composed by low caste performers all around them.  As a result, they took most of their poetic themes from the P??a?s and others, and even copied their life-style to an extent?though it must be kept in mind that the Pulava?s were of high caste, while the oral bards were low." This claim of Hart is also baseless. As in the case of the Parip??al 3.86, there are other instances where the poets and bards are welcomed in the poems without any indication of any hierarchy between them. The same thing can be seen in the medieval C??a inscriptions. Page 6 shows iyal pulavar (poets) and icaip p??ar (music-making P??ar) being mentioned as prospering under the rule of C??a R?jar?ja? II in the eulogy portion of a 12th century CE inscription. Page 7 shows another inscription mentioning poets and the bards as prospering under the rule of C??a Kul?ttu?ka? II of the 12th century CE.


Moreover, we have a Classical Tamil poet named Ne?umpalliyatta??r and a poetess named Ne?umpalliyattai. From their names, one can understand that they were bards who played multiple/orchestral instruments. (Ci?up?????uppa?ai 125 associates palliyam (multiple/orchestral instruments) with the K??iyar.) 


OTHER REMARKS
Also, Hart said, "The fact remains that caste is spread from Nepal to Sri Lanka and from Assam to Pakistan among many ethnic groups and religions." This does not prove caste is indigenous to Tamil society. Today, Christianity is present all over the world. That does not mean that it was present in the same areas 2100 years ago.  


Hart said, "It would be very nice if Sangam society was casteless and we could point to it as an exemplar of what India would be like without the Brahmins or whatever group is supposed to have dreamed up the caste system." With a research work that can serve as an example of what not to do in Indological research, Hart's subtle implication that questioning his thesis on caste in early Tamil society is tantamount to being anti-Brahmin does not work. Moreover, the title of my IJJS paper happens to be "On the Unintended Influence of Jainism on the Development of Caste in Post-Classical Tamil Society." :-)


Regards,
Palaniappan


-----Original Message-----
From: George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu>
To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Sun, Nov 24, 2013 4:16 pm
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis


In my opinion, the poems speak for themselves.  When the Sangam poems say someone was of despised birth and we see the same group among the Dalits today, that must mean they were Dalits then, I would think.  It would be very nice if Sangam society was casteless and we could point to it as an exemplar of what India would be like without the Brahmins or whatever group is supposed to have dreamed up the caste system.  The fact remains that caste is spread from Nepal to Sri Lanka and from Assam to Pakistan among many ethnic groups and religions.  I think it must be very ancient, and almost certainly pre-Aryan, as the Vedic Aryans had nothing whatsoever like the j?ti system.  But however that may be, the Sangam poems specifically mention caste many times.  No doubt Palaniappan and I will disagree on this forever, but I think it is important to state that I am not at all persuaded by his arguments.


I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not.  Apparently, they occupied (and still occupy) a position somewhat above the Dalits, as they stayed in the homes of rich people, sang for them, and also served as go-betweens between rich men and their women.  And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them. Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples.  


If the poems don?t mean what they say, then there may not have been caste in Sangam times in TN.  If they do, then it is very difficult to argue against the existence of caste, in my opinion. 


George
  

On Nov 24, 2013, at 12:27 PM, palaniappa at aol.com wrote:





I agree completely with Rajam's statement, "There was no indication of "untouchability" in the Tamil society as reflected in early Tamil poems."








 
Since George Hart has criticized my findings in his post, I would like to say that the contents of Hart's post are nothing new. All these have been addressed in my paper available at http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf . We have also discussed this in Indology in 2009. Here are the last two posts of the Indology discussion http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033485.html

http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033486.html . 
So instead of going over material already covered, I shall discuss something I have not discussed so far. I shall summarize the crux of my views briefly at first. Those who are interested in the details can read further. 



For almost four decades, George Hart has propounded his views on the concept of dangerous sacred power,a?a?ku, among the Tamils and the practice of untouchability that resulted from contact with the sacred power. According to Hart, the P??a?s and Pa?aiya?s have always been the lowest castes because they were polluted because they came in contact with that sacred power.  The only problem is that, as I had mentioned in 2009, there is clear epigraphic evidence that the Tamil Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) were not untouchables as late as the 11th century and Tamil P??ar (plural of the P??a?) are not untouchables even today. These facts completely invalidate Hart's theories. The reason Hart came to a conclusion diametrically opposite to mine is that his research methodology had major errors of commission and omission.



Those who are interested in more details can read on below. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Regarding the power of a?a?ku, Hart (1975a: 43) wrote:
 
"This power had to be rigidly controlled. As a result, religious rites were carried out by the lowest castes: the Pa?aiya?s , the P??a?s, the Tu?iya?s, and the V?la?s...The V?la?, who is even today found among the Pa?aiya?s of Kerala, would dance ecstatically as he was possessed by Murugan, an indigenous god...The Pa?aiya?, the P??a?, and the Tu?iya? would each play a special instrument which was thought to be inhabited by a sacred power and which was used for various ritual purposes. The pollution which is attached to the low castes is thus a legacy of indigenous Dravidian religion."
 
Hart's views of Tamil untouchability and sacred power are inseparable. And for his whole theory to have any validity, the Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) and the P??ar (plural of the P??a?) he has mentioned above should be untouchables or lowest castes. If even one group is not untouchable, his whole theory collapses. I have already mentioned that the Pa?aiyar were not untouchables in the 11th century. 



Hart (1975b:144) also says the following in connection with the Pa?aiyar:
"Elsewhere, the drum played for the king in the morning is the muracu (Pu?. 61, 397; Ai?. 448) . While there is nowhere any indication of who played the muracu, it is not unlikely that a subcaste of the Pa?aiya?s had that office, especially as one of the modern subdivisions of that caste is called Muracu."2 [emphasis mine]



Footnote 2 reads:
Edgar T. Thurston, Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Madras, 1909), VI:80



But, as shown in page 1 of the attachment, what Thurston (1909:80) really said was: 

"At the census, 1891, 348 sub-divisions were returned, of which the following were strongest in point of numbers:- Amma found chiefly in Tanjore and Madura;...; Morasu (drum) in Salem;...". [emphasis mine]
 
While Hart's change of -su to -cu may be understandable in terms of the Tamil transliteration system, the change of the radical vowel -o- to -u-,  which changed the name of the Pa?aiyar subdivision matching the word for 'drum' used in the Classical Tamil texts he cited, was problematic. This change could not have been a typographical error since in a later publication Hart (1987: 475) also says:


"One of the modern subdivisions of the Pa?aiya? caste is named "Muracu" (Thurston and Rangachari 1909: VI. 80), and it seems possible that this is a very ancient division." [emphasis mine]
 
In light of Hart's suggestion of the possible antiquity of this Pa?aiyar subdivision, there is some interesting information about the Morasu subdivision not mentioned by Hart (1975b) and Hart (1987). As can be seen from the highlighted portion in page 2 of the attachment, Thurston (1909: 81) says the following:



"It has been suggested to me that the Morasu Paraiyans, included in the above list are Canarese Holeyas, who have settled in the Tamil country." [emphasis mine]



Even more interesting is the situation with respect to the P???r. Hart (1975b: 120) states:
 
"The low status of bards may also be inferred from the fact that several centuries after the anthologies, Tirupp????v?r, who was a P??a? by caste, was considered to be so low that he was not allowed into the temple."



(The story of Tirupp????v?r occurs in different medieval Vai??ava hagiographical works such as the ???yirappa?i Guruparampar?prabh?vam. While the Vai??ava hagiographical works depict the P?nar saint Tirupp????v?r as not being allowed to enter the temple, the Periyapur??am, the 12th century ?aiva haigiographical work, portrayed the P??ar saint Tirun?laka??ar as originally standing outside the temple and being brought inside due to intervention by ?iva Himself. In another instance, the brahmin saint Tiru???acampantar is said to have arranged for Tirun?laka?tar to sleep inside another brahmin saint's house.)


Hart (1975b: 158) also stated:



"The Pa?aiya? is found in Tamilnad, Kerala, and the Kota-speaking areas, while the P??a? is found in modern Kerala and Orissa, and in parts of ancient North India, where P??a meant a low-class bard."



(The sources for the above statement were entries 3319 and 3351 in the first edition of Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (1960), which in turn, relied on Tamil Lexicon and  A Malayalam and English Dictionary by Gundert for information related to Tamil and Malayalam words respectively.)



As one can see, Hart (1975b) had left out any mention of the Tamil P??a? in present day Tamil Nadu. Based on the two statements of Hart quoted above, it seems Hart was not aware of the existence of the P??ar in present day Tamil Nadu. Otherwise, he would not have had to rely on medieval hagiography to ascertain the 'low' status of the P???r. Here lay a fundamental problem with Hart's research approach. He was producing sweeping anthropological conclusions with insufficient knowledge of people he was writing about.

 

All Hart had to do was to turn a few pages in Thurston (1909), which he had anyway consulted in the case of the Pa?aiyar.  Thurston (1909) spells P??a? as P????, with the second vowel being long ?. This spelling variation cannot be a reason for disregarding the entry. After all, Tamil Lexicon has entries connecting both variants as given below.

 

?????? p??a?, n. < ????. [M. p?na.] 1. An ancient class of Tamil bards and minstrels; ????????? ???????. ???????????????? (????. ??. 91). 2. See ??????. (W.)  

 

?????? p????, n. < ??????. Man of the tailor caste; ?????????? ????????

 

Note that the Tamil Lexicon derives 'P????' from 'P??a?'.

 

The entry in Thurston (1909: 29-42) on the P???? is a long one discussing both the Tamil P???? as well as the Malayalam P????. The entry opens with a very brief discussion of the Tamil P???? while discussion of the Malayalam P???? takes up the bulk of the entry. But it is the brief discussion of the Tamil P???? that Hart should have taken into account.

 

As can be seen in page 3 of the attachment, the entry on the P????s opens with the following statement.  "The Tamil P?n?ns are said, in the Census Report, 1901, to be also called M?stris. They are "tailors among Tamils in Madura and Tinnevelly. They employ Br?hmans and Vell?las as pur?hits. Though barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them, they are allowed to enter Hindu temples."   Later in the entry, as shown in page 4 of the attachment, in regards to the P????s of Travancore, Thurston (1909: 33) says, "For the following account of the P?n?ns of Travancore, I am indebted to Mr. N. Subramani Aiyar. The word is of Tamil origin, and means a tailor. The title taken by them is Panikkan, the usual honorific appellation of most of the industrial castes of Malabar. They are supposed to be one with the P?n?ns of the Tamil country though much below them in the social scale."  

 

As Gundert's dictionary notes, in Southern Tamil usage P??a? could indicate a bard as well as a tailor.

??????? p??a? T. M. (T. ????? = ???? melody). A caste of musicians, actors & players; in So. T. also tailors B., necromancers D. (= ???????????, ?????????????, ??????). ??' ????? ???? ???? prov. ??'???? ??????????????? ???????? Bhr. ? ?????????? V1. a caste of slaves.

 

Based on Tamil Lexicon and Gundert's dictionary, it is clear that P?n?n and P?nan are only variants of the same word. After all, there is no separate entry for P??a?s of Kerala in Thurston (1909).  Hart should have investigated if the P?n?n/P?nan, the tailor, and P?n?n/P?nan, the bard, were related in any way.  If he had conducted some fieldwork like anthropologists do before writing about different communities, he would have quickly realized that the tailors were from the same community as earlier bards.  At least if he had done a careful literature review, he would have gotten the true picture of the P?nans. 

 

For instance, the Arumpatavurai commentary for the Cilappatik?ram glosses tu??ak?rar in Cilappatik?ram (5.32) as P??ar. Also, as has been pointed out by Aiyar ([1924] 1999: 109), Travancore king B?lar?ma Varma's Sanskrit work, B?lar?ma Bharatam of the 18th century, presents as a tailor the bard P??apattiran of Madurai mentioned in the opening poem of the 11th Tirumu?ai of the ?aiva canon. Irakavan (1971: 79), a 20th century scholar, stated:

 

"????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ????????????????. ??????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????. ???? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ??????? ????? ????? ????????????. ??? ????. ?????, ?????????? ????????????? ????????????????? ?????, ????????????, ???????????? ????? ????????? ???????? ???????????.???????????? ???? ????? ?????? ???????????????????."

 

Here is a translation of the above quote.

"Many wonder if the P??ar caste/lineage exists today. The P??ar caste/lineage has not perished. It exists in the P???iya country even today. Some say that with the disappearance of the lute, the P??ar caste/lineage is ruined too. That is wrong.  But people of the P??ar caste/lineage live in small numbers in Maturai, Tirunelv?li, and C?tta?ku?am. Without an occupation, many are engaged in the job of tailoring." 


I have attached a table from Ludden (1996:123) showing the status of the P??a? in Tirunelveli district in 1823. (See page 5 of the attachment. The date of 1923 shown in the table title should actually be 1823.) One can see that they were small in number but part of the large 'Sudra' category.  So were barbers and washermen. None of them was/is an untouchable community.  That is why K. K. Pillay (1969: 208), while discussing the use of pulaitti in Classical Tamil texts to refer to the washerwoman, said, "It is not known how the term 'Pulaitti' came to be employed to denote her, because in later times the class of washermen was not identical with that of 'Pulaiyar'."

 

Many of the traditional upper caste Tamil pundits of the 20th century did not distinguish between hagiography and history. For them what the Periyapur??am and the Guruparampar? Prabhavam were presenting was history. They did not see these works as propagandist texts intended to promote a specific ideology. So these Tamil pundits believed that the P??ar were untouchables of earlier Tamil society. These Tamil teachers and especially Tamil teachers in northern Tamil Nadu did not know that Tamil P??ar have continued to exist as a community even today and are suffering no untouchability. 


Most of these Tamil pundits were not knowledgeable about the reality-based social information available in the inscriptions. For instance, they did not know that  the P??ar were engaged in singing in front of the deities in brahminic temples, training the temple women in music, and were given houses and money by royal order to perform these duties. See page 6 of the attachment for a translation of a 12th century inscription in the Tiruvi?aimarut?r temple by Orr (2000: 102).


Some scholars in Southern Tamil Nadu like Irakavan (1971:78-79) were sold on the Periyapuranam's promotional view that it was the egalitarian nature of the Bhakti movement that allowed the P??ar to enter temples. (On this score, the Periyapur??am had succeeded in its promotional objective.) They had failed to note that Paripatal 3, a pre-Bhakti-movement Classical Tamil poem, calls Visnu "a good P??a? of lute" in a poem that is full of Vedic and Puranic elements. As part of the poem's adoration of Vi??u, Parip??al 3: 81-86 offers the following praise:







"You are the red-eyed one with dark complexion (V?sudeva), the black-eyed and white complexioned one (Sankar?a?a), the golden complexioned one (Pradyumna), the green complexioned one (Aniruddha), the one who dances to the left and right (of cowherd girls), the one who dances with the pot, the one who has the plough, the one who is the lord of cowherds, the one who protects, the one whose nature is not being seen, the one who never leaves the devotee's thought, the one that never dies, the one who rules the world, the poet of ancient texts, the good P???? of lute..." 







One cannot imagine this if the P??a? were untouchable before the time of Tiru?anacampantar.

 

One can understand the traditional Tamil pundits' ahistorical view given their possibly limited exposure to historiography, anthropology, and comparative linguistics. But one would expect a US scholar with access to Western critical scholarship and other resources at Harvard University, University of Wisconsin-Madison, and University of California, Berkeley to critically explore and evaluate facts.  Even after Orr (2000) published the translation of the Tiruvi?aimarut?r inscription shown in the attachment, Hart has not updated his views.

 

The facts that the Tamil Pa?aiyar were not untouchable even until 11th century and the P??ar are not untouchable even today completely invalidate Hart's theories regarding untouchability among ancient Tamils.  






Moreover, if contact with a?a?ku, the sacred power, caused one to be polluted and become untouchable, T?vantikai, a brahmin woman in the Cilappatikaram, a post-ClassicalTamil epic, who got possessed by C?tta?, danced, and offered oracles would not have been appointed as a priestess by the king in a temple with Vedic sacrificial hall. (See http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2013-November/038692.html)













It is ironic that in order to buttress his views Hart is citing Dravidian Etymological Dictionary as if its groupings are true for all time and as if it gives etymological roots. He is incorrect on both counts. (Deriving etymological roots purely based on dictionary entries without considering the philological context can lead to wrong etymologies as in the case of Tamil ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' (DEDR 396), which S. Starostin derives from *??-. See http://tinyurl.com/q64ko6e . But literary and epigraphic data clearly show that ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' should be grouped with DEDR 5157. See http://www.linguist.jussieu.fr/~chevilla/FestSchrift/supa_9d.pdf for the reasons. Hart's discussion of pul as a root is just another example of the same kind of etymologizing.)  Dravidian Etymology Dictionary's author, Emeneau, would be the last person to hold such views. A good example of Emeneau's genuine open-minded scholarship can be seen in Emeneau (1988),  after the revised Dravidian Etymological Dictionary was published in 1984. 
















 

In other words, philological, epigraphic, and sociological data clearly refute Hart's theories of sacred power and untouchability among Tamils, which were based on a research approach with fundamental problems. 

 

 

References




 

Emeneau. M. B. 1988. Proto-Dravidian *C- and Its Developments. Journal of the American Oriental Society 108, no. 2: 239--268.

 

Irakavan. A. 1971. Icaiyum Yalum. Tirunelveli: Kalain?? Patippakam.

 

Hart, George L., III. 1975a. Ancient Tamil Literature: Its Scholarly Past and Future. In Essays on South India. Edited by Burton Stein, 41-63. University of Hawaii: The University Press of Hawaii.

 

Hart, George. L., III. 1975b. The Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their Milieu and Their Sanskrit Counterparts. Berkeley: University of California Press. 


Hart, George L., III. 1987. Early Evidence for Caste in South India. In Dimentions of Social Life: Essays in Honor of David G. Mandelbaum. Edited by Paul Hockings. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.

 

Ludden, D. E. 1996. Caste Society and Units of Production in Early Modern South India. In

Institutions and Economic Change in South Asia: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives. Edited by Burton Stein and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, 105-133. New Delhi: Oxford University Press.

 

Orr, Leslie. 2000. Donors, Daughters, and Devotees of God: Temple Women in Medieval Tamilnadu. New York: Oxford University Press.



Pillay, K. K. 1969. A Social History of the Tamils Part I. Madras: University of Madras.


 

Thurston, E. 1909. Castes and Tribes of Southern India. Vol. 6.  Madras: Government Press. 

-----------------------



Regards,
Palaniappan

 





















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From palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Dec  3 07:54:46 2013
From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 13 02:54:46 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears
In-Reply-To: <52957E5E.4010604@ifpindia.org>
Message-ID: <8D0BE1411D6EC78-224C-A1845@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>

Dear Dr. Ganesan,


You raise a very good point.



My statement in the post below was made based on my understanding of what John Carman and Vasudha Narayanan had written in The Tamil Veda (University of Chicago Press: 1989). 


According to Carman and Narayanan, it is true that R?m?nuja (R) has not explicitly acknowledged Namm??v?r (N) in any of his works. But, the following indirectly point to R's reverence for N. (Page numbers refer to pages in The Tamil Veda.)


1. R's disciple, Amuta??r (A), the author of Ir?m?nuca N???ant?ti, refers to R's reverence for N (p.43).  
2. R acknowledged Yamuna (Y) to be his master and Y had adored N (p.54). (Y died before R reached him according to hagiography.)
3. R's disciples considered themselves part of a lineage that included R (p.54) and they adored N.
4. R wrote to convince a non-?r?vai??ava Brahmin audience and so only cited Sanskrit sources (p. 54). (If I understand Carman and Narayanan correctly, they seem to feel that even though R really revered N, considering the audience he was targeting, R did not cite N.)
5. The influence of N on R is seen in his discussions. For instance on p. 155, Carman and Narayanan
 write, "...Namma?v?r's own words express a theme that is equally prominent in the Sanskrit writings of R?m?nuja and is perhaps clearest where R?m?nuja is not simply commenting on a particular text but developing the meaning of the whole." 


However, I look forward to any updated information you may have regarding the historical accuracy of any of the points.  For instance, Ir?m?nuca N???ant?ti is a work praising R. Was its author A and was he indeed a direct disciple of R known from historical evidences other than hagiography? What would be the motivation for A to say R adored N, if A was indeed R's disciple? I would appreciate any new insights into these questions.


Thanks


Regards,
Palaniappan



-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. T. Ganesan <ganesan at ifpindia.org>
To: indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Tue, Nov 26, 2013 11:07 pm
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] molten lead in ears


          
    

      
      On 22-11-2013 05:35, palaniappa at aol.com wrote:
    
    
          
For ?a?kara's              views on this issue, see
          
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe34/sbe34107.htm
          

            
          R?m?nuja also essentially had the same opinion in his          commentary. See        
          
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe48/sbe48137.htm
          

            
          
On the                  other hand, what is interesting is that for                  ?r?vai??avas like R?m?nuja, the ??dra saint Namm??v?r                  was/is the foremost saint.
        
      
    
    Where is such a reference by Ramanuja to Namm??v?r        in his works ? Nowhere  does he make any such    reference. 
    It seems only much long after Ramanuja such ideas were incorporated    in the propagation of SriVaishnavism.
    
    Ganesan
    



            
          
          
Regards,
          
Palaniappan
          

            
            




 


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Tue Dec  3 13:04:24 2013
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 13 13:04:24 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis
In-Reply-To: <8D0BE07A67D51F3-224C-A15A5@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C650BEF6F3A@SPMXM04.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear list members,

Though I am of the opinion that the Indology list is not the proper forum for such a long review of George Hart's approach to Ca?kam poetry as written by Palaniappan, if only because it will be difficult for Hart to react, I would like to add a note to Palaniappan's summary: ?To put it in a nutshell, Hart's interpretations of what the poems speak suffer from very serious methodological problems. His views are based on his own imagination or data from a Malayalam novel or social conditions of the 20th century. His knowledge regarding modern and medieval Tamil society is very inadequate. Unfortunately, based on this inadequate knowledge, he has imagined an early Tamil society which is not supported by data from the poems themselves.? All this sounds very familiar. Hart is doing what the Ca?kam poets did, namely as outsiders (n?garakas) and from a much later point of view (8th or 9th century) evoking or imagining a village society (in the Akam, or village poems) and a past (in the Pu?am, or historical poems) respectively.

Herman Tieken

Herman Tieken
University of Leiden
The Netherlands
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens palaniappa at aol.com [palaniappa at aol.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 3 december 2013 7:25
To: indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis

George Hart said, "In my opinion, the poems speak for themselves.  When the Sangam poems say someone was of despised birth and we see the same group among the Dalits today, that must mean they were Dalits then, I would think."

I apologize for the long response below necessitated by Hart's statement.  However, I summarize the key points very briefly at first to be followed by details later.

To put it in a nutshell, Hart's interpretations of what the poems speak suffer from very serious methodological problems. His views are based on his own imagination or data from a Malayalam novel or social conditions of the 20th century. His knowledge regarding modern and medieval Tamil society is very inadequate. Unfortunately, based on this inadequate knowledge, he has imagined an early Tamil society which is not supported by data from the poems themselves.

Those who are interested in the details can read on below.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ON DESPISED BIRTH
Unfortunately, there are other scholars, who do not understand the poems as Hart does. Hart (1975b: 34) described Nacci??rkki?iyar, a 14th century Brahmin commentator from Madurai, as "perhaps the greatest of the medieval commentators on the Tolk?ppiyam." Nacci??rkki?iyar has also authored commentaries on Classical Tamil texts  such as Kalittokai and Pattupp??tu. Page 1 of the attachment shows that according to Nacci??rkki?iyar, the royal funerary priest in Pu?. 363 mentioned by Hart (1975b: 82) as one 'of despised birth' was a Brahmin. Nacci??rkki?iyar also allows for the possibility of the same priest being a barber. (This is in Nacci??rkki?iyar's commentary for C?vakacint?ma?i 2984.)  Neither of them is considered to be despised or untouchable in the Tamil society.

What is most distressing is that Hart's interpretation is often based on what the poems do not 'speak'.  Here are some examples.

ISSUES RELATED TO SACRED POWER
Hart (1975b: 101) said, " An inauspicious state of a woman's powers is brought about by her fall from chastity. The ancient Tamil poems nowhere describe this eventuality, as they are idealized; however, it is well-treated by a modern Malayalam novel, Chemmeen, by Thakazhi Sivasankara Pillai, about the life of the fishermen of the Malabar coast, which has changed little in the last two thousand years." [emphasis mine] When the ancient Tamil poems do not speak, Hart substituted the speech of a 20th century Malayalam novel!

Hart (1975b: 124) said, "It is true the V?la? is never called low or base in the poems, but in modern Kerala members of one of the subcastes of Pa?aiya?s are called V?la?s. One of their jobs is to tell the future, like the V?la?s of ancient Tamil literature, from whom they are no doubt descended. Furthermore, it has been seen that in Pu?. 259 a pulaitti, or base woman, is possessed by Muruka? and shakes, much like the V?la?, and that, in Pu?. 335, the Ka?ampa?, who was probably a priest of Muruka?, is classed among the low castes. In light of this evidence, it is likely that the V?la? was in fact considered a low person." [emphasis mine] Pu?. 335 does not say that the Ka?ampa? was a low caste person. That was purely Hart's own interpretation. Hart also did not consider T?vanti, the Brahmin woman in the Cilappatik?ram, being possessed by C?tta? and shaking.  Data from the Cilappatik?ram was a lot closer in time to the Pu?an????u than any 20th century data.

Hart (1975b: 125) said, "In the Pa??i?app?lai, one of the Pattupp???u, line 77, the outer streets of a town (pu?acc?ri) are said to be inhabited by fishermen. It is quite likely that then, as now, the fishermen lived in the outer parts of the city because they were considered of low caste, probably because they were infected by the spirits of the fish they killed." [emphasis mine]  That the fishermen lived on the seashore does not call for any judgement about their caste status. The poem does not say that the fishermen were of 'low caste' or were "infected by the spirits of the fish they killed." This is Hart's own imagination.

P??AR'S RIGHT TO CULTIVATE
Hart (1975b: 140) said, "P??a?s who could not make their living by performing would catch fish, residing in their own part of the city and exchanging some of the fish for paddy (Pu?. 348; Ak. 196; Ai?. 47, 48, 49, 111). This confirms their low status: bards were allowed the low task of catching fish, but they were not allowed to raise paddy." There is nothing in the poems that 'confirms their low status' or talks about any prohibition against their raising paddy. This is again Hart's own interpretation. It should be noted that inscription ARE 476 of 1962-63 mentions a P??a? enjoying K?r??mai (right of cultivation) even in the P???iya kingdom of the more Sanskritized time of the 13th century.

ISSUES RELATED TO PA?AIYAR
Hart (1975b: 143) said, "To a very different category than the P??a?, the concert-giver, and the dancer, belonged the man who played the ki?ai drum. It is likely that one of the names of the ki?ai drummer was Pa?aiya?, and that the modern Pa?aiya? is his descendant. Thus Pu?. 388 says that a ki?ai player plays the pa?ai (a generic term for drum), while in Pu?. 371, a suppliant packs up his pa?ai, goes to the king, and plays the ta??ri (another name for the ki?ai). In Pu?. 335, the Pa?aiya? clan is distinguished from the P??a? and Tu?iya? clan, while in the Pu?apporu?ve?p?m?lai, a later work, a verse mentions the Ki?aiya?, Tu?iya?, and P??a? as three different clans; thus it seems natural to identify the Ki?aiya? and the Pa?aiya?." [emphasis mine] There is nothing 'likely' in the poem about the Ki?aiya? being the Pa?aiya?.

If just because a ki?ai player plays the pa?ai, he is supposed to be of the Pa?aiyar community, then a dancer who plays the pa?ai (Aka. 151.10) should also be a considered to be a member of the Pa?aiyar community. But Hart considers the dancers to be of a different category from that of the Ki?aiya?. But, then agricultural laborers played pa?ai (Maturaikk??ci 262), and the K??iyar (actors/concert givers) also were described as having pa?ai (Maturaikk??ci 523). Hart (1975b: 141) said, "It seems likely that the K??iya?s and Vayiriya?s were subcastes of the P??a?s...". So are the dancers and actors/concert givers, who are supposed to be different from the Ki?aiya?s, Pa?aiyar too? Comparing the lists of people in Pu?. 335 and the Pu?apporu?ve?p?m?lai to conclude that the Ki?aiya? and the Pa?aiya? were one and the same is like comparing apples and oranges. One listed the residents of a particular region. Another listed the people, who got shares of the spoils of war. In the final analysis, actually there is nothing to support Hart's equation of the Ki?aiya? with the Pa?aiya?.

Hart also wanted to link the modern Pa?aiyar with those who played the royal drum in ancient Tamil society. He went to extraordinary lengths to make this linkage when the poems did not do so! This is what Hart (1975b: 144) said:
"Elsewhere, the drum played for the king in the morning is the muracu (Pu?. 61, 397; Ai?. 448) . While there is nowhere any indication of who played the muracu, it is not unlikely that a subcaste of the Pa?aiya?s had that office, especially as one of the modern subdivisions of that caste is called Muracu."2 [emphasis mine]

As we discussed earlier, Hart not only changed the radical vowel of 'Morasu' reported by Thurston, which resulted in the name of the P??aiyar division matching the name of the drum in the poems mentioned above but also suggested that "it seems possible that this is a very ancient division." This suggestion extended the status of untouchability from the early 20th century Pa?aiyar to the ancient players of the drum. But then an inconvenient suggestion that the Morasu division members  were Holeya immigrants from Kannada-speaking region was mentioned by Thurston. The change of Kannada p- to h- occurred from the 10th century CE. So the early immigrant Holeyas (<Poleyas) could not have become the Morasu division before the 10th century, pulling the rug out from under Hart's assumption of them being an ancient division of the Pa?aiyar. This Holeya immigration issue was not discussed by Hart (1975b) or Hart (1987)!

In the whole Classical Tamil corpus, the word 'pa?aiya?' occurs only once (Pu?a. 335). The poem does not speak of the Pa?aiyar being a caste or being untouchable or being funerary priests. Early medieval Tamil inscriptions show that people with the name Pa?aiya? were high status individuals. Page 2 of the attachment shows an individual named C?kkai Pa?aiya??r of the 7th century was a warrior in the Pallava army one of whose subordinates was killed in whose memory a herostone was erected. It is important to note the Tamil honorific suffix -?r in the name Pa?aiya??r. Also the title C?kkai suggests he could have been qualified as a Sanskrit dramatist. This person could not have been an untouchable. Page 3 of the attachment shows a person by the name P?va? Pa?aiya? of the 9th century who donated some land for Vedic study in a temple. He was an  A?ukkar of the P???iya? king. The editor of the inscription called the position 'bodyguard'. But the position of A?ukkar could refer to an official position enjoying the highest confidence of the king since the general Para?c?ti of Pallava Narasimhavarman I was also referred to as A?ukkar in the Periyapur??am.  Page 4 of the attachment shows a 13th century inscription in the Coimbatore area who was a Ve????a? (which stands for Ve????a?, an upper caste non-Brahmin) with the name "Pa?aiya? Pa?aiya???a N???uk K?mu??a?". Similarly, page 5 shows another Ve????a? (written as Ve????a?)  with the name Ca?aiya? N?riy?? Pa?aiya? in the 14th century. Some argue that the name Pa?aiya? is only the proper name of individuals and not the name of a community. Even if that were true, if the name Paraiya? was associated with untouchability from very ancient times, what would be the motivation for any non-untouchable family to give their child the name Pa?aiya??

BARDS' SOCIAL STATUS COMPARED TO POETS'
Another favorite claim of Hart is that the bards were of low caste and that the Pulava?s (the poets) were of high caste. Referring to the authors of Classical Tamil poetry, Hart (1975b: 148) says, "Like all writers, the authors of this poetry modeled their compositions on forms with which they were familiar. The only models  they had were the oral poems being composed by low caste performers all around them.  As a result, they took most of their poetic themes from the P??a?s and others, and even copied their life-style to an extent?though it must be kept in mind that the Pulava?s were of high caste, while the oral bards were low." This claim of Hart is also baseless. As in the case of the Parip??al 3.86, there are other instances where the poets and bards are welcomed in the poems without any indication of any hierarchy between them. The same thing can be seen in the medieval C??a inscriptions. Page 6 shows iyal pulavar (poets) and icaip p??ar (music-making P??ar) being mentioned as prospering under the rule of C??a R?jar?ja? II in the eulogy portion of a 12th century CE inscription. Page 7 shows another inscription mentioning poets and the bards as prospering under the rule of C??a Kul?ttu?ka? II of the 12th century CE.

Moreover, we have a Classical Tamil poet named Ne?umpalliyatta??r and a poetess named Ne?umpalliyattai. From their names, one can understand that they were bards who played multiple/orchestral instruments. (Ci?up?????uppa?ai 125 associates palliyam (multiple/orchestral instruments) with the K??iyar.)

OTHER REMARKS
Also, Hart said, "The fact remains that caste is spread from Nepal to Sri Lanka and from Assam to Pakistan among many ethnic groups and religions." This does not prove caste is indigenous to Tamil society. Today, Christianity is present all over the world. That does not mean that it was present in the same areas 2100 years ago.

Hart said, "It would be very nice if Sangam society was casteless and we could point to it as an exemplar of what India would be like without the Brahmins or whatever group is supposed to have dreamed up the caste system." With a research work that can serve as an example of what not to do in Indological research, Hart's subtle implication that questioning his thesis on caste in early Tamil society is tantamount to being anti-Brahmin does not work. Moreover, the title of my IJJS paper happens to be "On the Unintended Influence of Jainism on the Development of Caste in Post-Classical Tamil Society." :-)

Regards,
Palaniappan

-----Original Message-----
From: George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu<mailto:glhart at berkeley.edu>>
To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Sent: Sun, Nov 24, 2013 4:16 pm
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] query: 18 ;"sre.nii jaatis

In my opinion, the poems speak for themselves.  When the Sangam poems say someone was of despised birth and we see the same group among the Dalits today, that must mean they were Dalits then, I would think.  It would be very nice if Sangam society was casteless and we could point to it as an exemplar of what India would be like without the Brahmins or whatever group is supposed to have dreamed up the caste system.  The fact remains that caste is spread from Nepal to Sri Lanka and from Assam to Pakistan among many ethnic groups and religions.  I think it must be very ancient, and almost certainly pre-Aryan, as the Vedic Aryans had nothing whatsoever like the j?ti system.  But however that may be, the Sangam poems specifically mention caste many times.  No doubt Palaniappan and I will disagree on this forever, but I think it is important to state that I am not at all persuaded by his arguments.

I never claimed that P??a?s were Dalits ? they were not.  Apparently, they occupied (and still occupy) a position somewhat above the Dalits, as they stayed in the homes of rich people, sang for them, and also served as go-betweens between rich men and their women.  And in modern times, they certainly must not be a high caste, since barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them. Regarding the bhakti poems, it is undeniable that the Dalits and the P??a?s were not allowed to enter temples.

If the poems don?t mean what they say, then there may not have been caste in Sangam times in TN.  If they do, then it is very difficult to argue against the existence of caste, in my opinion.

George

On Nov 24, 2013, at 12:27 PM, palaniappa at aol.com<mailto:palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:

I agree completely with Rajam's statement, "There was no indication of "untouchability" in the Tamil society as reflected in early Tamil poems."

Since George Hart has criticized my findings in his post, I would like to say that the contents of Hart's post are nothing new. All these have been addressed in my paper available at http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf . We have also discussed this in Indology in 2009. Here are the last two posts of the Indology discussion http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033485.html
http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-July/033486.html .
So instead of going over material already covered, I shall discuss something I have not discussed so far. I shall summarize the crux of my views briefly at first. Those who are interested in the details can read further.

For almost four decades, George Hart has propounded his views on the concept of dangerous sacred power,a?a?ku, among the Tamils and the practice of untouchability that resulted from contact with the sacred power. According to Hart, the P??a?s and Pa?aiya?s have always been the lowest castes because they were polluted because they came in contact with that sacred power.  The only problem is that, as I had mentioned in 2009, there is clear epigraphic evidence that the Tamil Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) were not untouchables as late as the 11th century and Tamil P??ar (plural of the P??a?) are not untouchables even today. These facts completely invalidate Hart's theories. The reason Hart came to a conclusion diametrically opposite to mine is that his research methodology had major errors of commission and omission.

Those who are interested in more details can read on below.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the power of a?a?ku, Hart (1975a: 43) wrote:

"This power had to be rigidly controlled. As a result, religious rites were carried out by the lowest castes: the Pa?aiya?s , the P??a?s, the Tu?iya?s, and the V?la?s...The V?la?, who is even today found among the Pa?aiya?s of Kerala, would dance ecstatically as he was possessed by Murugan, an indigenous god...The Pa?aiya?, the P??a?, and the Tu?iya? would each play a special instrument which was thought to be inhabited by a sacred power and which was used for various ritual purposes. The pollution which is attached to the low castes is thus a legacy of indigenous Dravidian religion."

Hart's views of Tamil untouchability and sacred power are inseparable. And for his whole theory to have any validity, the Pa?aiyar (plural of the Pa?aiya?) and the P??ar (plural of the P??a?) he has mentioned above should be untouchables or lowest castes. If even one group is not untouchable, his whole theory collapses. I have already mentioned that the Pa?aiyar were not untouchables in the 11th century.

Hart (1975b:144) also says the following in connection with the Pa?aiyar:
"Elsewhere, the drum played for the king in the morning is the muracu (Pu?. 61, 397; Ai?. 448) . While there is nowhere any indication of who played the muracu, it is not unlikely that a subcaste of the Pa?aiya?s had that office, especially as one of the modern subdivisions of that caste is called Muracu."2 [emphasis mine]

Footnote 2 reads:
Edgar T. Thurston, Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Madras, 1909), VI:80

But, as shown in page 1 of the attachment, what Thurston (1909:80) really said was:
"At the census, 1891, 348 sub-divisions were returned, of which the following were strongest in point of numbers:- Amma found chiefly in Tanjore and Madura;...; Morasu (drum) in Salem;...". [emphasis mine]

While Hart's change of -su to -cu may be understandable in terms of the Tamil transliteration system, the change of the radical vowel -o- to -u-,  which changed the name of the Pa?aiyar subdivision matching the word for 'drum' used in the Classical Tamil texts he cited, was problematic. This change could not have been a typographical error since in a later publication Hart (1987: 475) also says:

"One of the modern subdivisions of the Pa?aiya? caste is named "Muracu" (Thurston and Rangachari 1909: VI. 80), and it seems possible that this is a very ancient division." [emphasis mine]

In light of Hart's suggestion of the possible antiquity of this Pa?aiyar subdivision, there is some interesting information about the Morasu subdivision not mentioned by Hart (1975b) and Hart (1987). As can be seen from the highlighted portion in page 2 of the attachment, Thurston (1909: 81) says the following:

"It has been suggested to me that the Morasu Paraiyans, included in the above list are Canarese Holeyas, who have settled in the Tamil country." [emphasis mine]

Even more interesting is the situation with respect to the P???r. Hart (1975b: 120) states:

"The low status of bards may also be inferred from the fact that several centuries after the anthologies, Tirupp????v?r, who was a P??a? by caste, was considered to be so low that he was not allowed into the temple."

(The story of Tirupp????v?r occurs in different medieval Vai??ava hagiographical works such as the ???yirappa?i Guruparampar?prabh?vam. While the Vai??ava hagiographical works depict the P?nar saint Tirupp????v?r as not being allowed to enter the temple, the Periyapur??am, the 12th century ?aiva haigiographical work, portrayed the P??ar saint Tirun?laka??ar as originally standing outside the temple and being brought inside due to intervention by ?iva Himself. In another instance, the brahmin saint Tiru???acampantar is said to have arranged for Tirun?laka?tar to sleep inside another brahmin saint's house.)

Hart (1975b: 158) also stated:

"The Pa?aiya? is found in Tamilnad, Kerala, and the Kota-speaking areas, while the P??a? is found in modern Kerala and Orissa, and in parts of ancient North India, where P??a meant a low-class bard."

(The sources for the above statement were entries 3319 and 3351 in the first edition of Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (1960), which in turn, relied on Tamil Lexicon and  A Malayalam and English Dictionary by Gundert for information related to Tamil and Malayalam words respectively.)

As one can see, Hart (1975b) had left out any mention of the Tamil P??a? in present day Tamil Nadu. Based on the two statements of Hart quoted above, it seems Hart was not aware of the existence of the P??ar in present day Tamil Nadu. Otherwise, he would not have had to rely on medieval hagiography to ascertain the 'low' status of the P???r. Here lay a fundamental problem with Hart's research approach. He was producing sweeping anthropological conclusions with insufficient knowledge of people he was writing about.

All Hart had to do was to turn a few pages in Thurston (1909), which he had anyway consulted in the case of the Pa?aiyar.  Thurston (1909) spells P??a? as P????, with the second vowel being long ?. This spelling variation cannot be a reason for disregarding the entry. After all, Tamil Lexicon has entries connecting both variants as given below.

?????? p??a?, n. < ????. [M. p?na.] 1. An ancient class of Tamil bards and minstrels; ????????? ???????. ???????????????? (????. ??. 91). 2. See ??????. (W.)

?????? p????, n. < ??????. Man of the tailor caste; ?????????? ????????

Note that the Tamil Lexicon derives 'P????' from 'P??a?'.

The entry in Thurston (1909: 29-42) on the P???? is a long one discussing both the Tamil P???? as well as the Malayalam P????. The entry opens with a very brief discussion of the Tamil P???? while discussion of the Malayalam P???? takes up the bulk of the entry. But it is the brief discussion of the Tamil P???? that Hart should have taken into account.

As can be seen in page 3 of the attachment, the entry on the P????s opens with the following statement.  "The Tamil P?n?ns are said, in the Census Report, 1901, to be also called M?stris. They are "tailors among Tamils in Madura and Tinnevelly. They employ Br?hmans and Vell?las as pur?hits. Though barbers and washermen will not eat food prepared by them, they are allowed to enter Hindu temples."   Later in the entry, as shown in page 4 of the attachment, in regards to the P????s of Travancore, Thurston (1909: 33) says, "For the following account of the P?n?ns of Travancore, I am indebted to Mr. N. Subramani Aiyar. The word is of Tamil origin, and means a tailor. The title taken by them is Panikkan, the usual honorific appellation of most of the industrial castes of Malabar. They are supposed to be one with the P?n?ns of the Tamil country though much below them in the social scale."

As Gundert's dictionary notes, in Southern Tamil usage P??a? could indicate a bard as well as a tailor.
??????? p??a? T. M. (T. ????? = ???? melody). A caste of musicians, actors & players; in So. T. also tailors B., necromancers D. (= ???????????, ?????????????, ??????). ??' ????? ???? ???? prov. ??'???? ??????????????? ???????? Bhr. ? ?????????? V1. a caste of slaves.

Based on Tamil Lexicon and Gundert's dictionary, it is clear that P?n?n and P?nan are only variants of the same word. After all, there is no separate entry for P??a?s of Kerala in Thurston (1909).  Hart should have investigated if the P?n?n/P?nan, the tailor, and P?n?n/P?nan, the bard, were related in any way.  If he had conducted some fieldwork like anthropologists do before writing about different communities, he would have quickly realized that the tailors were from the same community as earlier bards.  At least if he had done a careful literature review, he would have gotten the true picture of the P?nans.

For instance, the Arumpatavurai commentary for the Cilappatik?ram glosses tu??ak?rar in Cilappatik?ram (5.32) as P??ar. Also, as has been pointed out by Aiyar ([1924] 1999: 109), Travancore king B?lar?ma Varma's Sanskrit work, B?lar?ma Bharatam of the 18th century, presents as a tailor the bard P??apattiran of Madurai mentioned in the opening poem of the 11th Tirumu?ai of the ?aiva canon. Irakavan (1971: 79), a 20th century scholar, stated:

"????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ????????????????. ??????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????. ???? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ??????? ????? ????? ????????????. ??? ????. ?????, ?????????? ????????????? ????????????????? ?????, ????????????, ???????????? ????? ????????? ???????? ???????????.???????????? ???? ????? ?????? ???????????????????."

Here is a translation of the above quote.
"Many wonder if the P??ar caste/lineage exists today. The P??ar caste/lineage has not perished. It exists in the P???iya country even today. Some say that with the disappearance of the lute, the P??ar caste/lineage is ruined too. That is wrong.  But people of the P??ar caste/lineage live in small numbers in Maturai, Tirunelv?li, and C?tta?ku?am. Without an occupation, many are engaged in the job of tailoring."

I have attached a table from Ludden (1996:123) showing the status of the P??a? in Tirunelveli district in 1823. (See page 5 of the attachment. The date of 1923 shown in the table title should actually be 1823.) One can see that they were small in number but part of the large 'Sudra' category.  So were barbers and washermen. None of them was/is an untouchable community.  That is why K. K. Pillay (1969: 208), while discussing the use of pulaitti in Classical Tamil texts to refer to the washerwoman, said, "It is not known how the term 'Pulaitti' came to be employed to denote her, because in later times the class of washermen was not identical with that of 'Pulaiyar'."

Many of the traditional upper caste Tamil pundits of the 20th century did not distinguish between hagiography and history. For them what the Periyapur??am and the Guruparampar? Prabhavam were presenting was history. They did not see these works as propagandist texts intended to promote a specific ideology. So these Tamil pundits believed that the P??ar were untouchables of earlier Tamil society. These Tamil teachers and especially Tamil teachers in northern Tamil Nadu did not know that Tamil P??ar have continued to exist as a community even today and are suffering no untouchability.

Most of these Tamil pundits were not knowledgeable about the reality-based social information available in the inscriptions. For instance, they did not know that  the P??ar were engaged in singing in front of the deities in brahminic temples, training the temple women in music, and were given houses and money by royal order to perform these duties. See page 6 of the attachment for a translation of a 12th century inscription in the Tiruvi?aimarut?r temple by Orr (2000: 102).

Some scholars in Southern Tamil Nadu like Irakavan (1971:78-79) were sold on the Periyapuranam's promotional view that it was the egalitarian nature of the Bhakti movement that allowed the P??ar to enter temples. (On this score, the Periyapur??am had succeeded in its promotional objective.) They had failed to note that Paripatal 3, a pre-Bhakti-movement Classical Tamil poem, calls Visnu "a good P??a? of lute" in a poem that is full of Vedic and Puranic elements. As part of the poem's adoration of Vi??u, Parip??al 3: 81-86 offers the following praise:

"You are the red-eyed one with dark complexion (V?sudeva), the black-eyed and white complexioned one (Sankar?a?a), the golden complexioned one (Pradyumna), the green complexioned one (Aniruddha), the one who dances to the left and right (of cowherd girls), the one who dances with the pot, the one who has the plough, the one who is the lord of cowherds, the one who protects, the one whose nature is not being seen, the one who never leaves the devotee's thought, the one that never dies, the one who rules the world, the poet of ancient texts, the good P???? of lute..."

One cannot imagine this if the P??a? were untouchable before the time of Tiru?anacampantar.

One can understand the traditional Tamil pundits' ahistorical view given their possibly limited exposure to historiography, anthropology, and comparative linguistics. But one would expect a US scholar with access to Western critical scholarship and other resources at Harvard University, University of Wisconsin-Madison, and University of California, Berkeley to critically explore and evaluate facts.  Even after Orr (2000) published the translation of the Tiruvi?aimarut?r inscription shown in the attachment, Hart has not updated his views.

The facts that the Tamil Pa?aiyar were not untouchable even until 11th century and the P??ar are not untouchable even today completely invalidate Hart's theories regarding untouchability among ancient Tamils.
Moreover, if contact with a?a?ku, the sacred power, caused one to be polluted and become untouchable, T?vantikai, a brahmin woman in the Cilappatikaram, a post-ClassicalTamil epic, who got possessed by C?tta?, danced, and offered oracles would not have been appointed as a priestess by the king in a temple with Vedic sacrificial hall. (See http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2013-November/038692.html)

It is ironic that in order to buttress his views Hart is citing Dravidian Etymological Dictionary as if its groupings are true for all time and as if it gives etymological roots. He is incorrect on both counts. (Deriving etymological roots purely based on dictionary entries without considering the philological context can lead to wrong etymologies as in the case of Tamil ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' (DEDR 396), which S. Starostin derives from *??-. See http://tinyurl.com/q64ko6e . But literary and epigraphic data clearly show that ??v?r 'Vai??ava saint' should be grouped with DEDR 5157. See http://www.linguist.jussieu.fr/~chevilla/FestSchrift/supa_9d.pdf for the reasons. Hart's discussion of pul as a root is just another example of the same kind of etymologizing.)  Dravidian Etymology Dictionary's author, Emeneau, would be the last person to hold such views. A good example of Emeneau's genuine open-minded scholarship can be seen in Emeneau (1988),  after the revised Dravidian Etymological Dictionary was published in 1984.

In other words, philological, epigraphic, and sociological data clearly refute Hart's theories of sacred power and untouchability among Tamils, which were based on a research approach with fundamental problems.


References


Emeneau. M. B. 1988. Proto-Dravidian *C- and Its Developments. Journal of the American Oriental Society 108, no. 2: 239--268.

Irakavan. A. 1971. Icaiyum Yalum. Tirunelveli: Kalain?? Patippakam.

Hart, George L., III. 1975a. Ancient Tamil Literature: Its Scholarly Past and Future. In Essays on South India. Edited by Burton Stein, 41-63. University of Hawaii: The University Press of Hawaii.

Hart, George. L., III. 1975b. The Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their Milieu and Their Sanskrit Counterparts. Berkeley: University of California Press.

Hart, George L., III. 1987. Early Evidence for Caste in South India. In Dimentions of Social Life: Essays in Honor of David G. Mandelbaum. Edited by Paul Hockings. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.

Ludden, D. E. 1996. Caste Society and Units of Production in Early Modern South India. In
Institutions and Economic Change in South Asia: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives. Edited by Burton Stein and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, 105-133. New Delhi: Oxford University Press.

Orr, Leslie. 2000. Donors, Daughters, and Devotees of God: Temple Women in Medieval Tamilnadu. New York: Oxford University Press.

Pillay, K. K. 1969. A Social History of the Tamils Part I. Madras: University of Madras.

Thurston, E. 1909. Castes and Tribes of Southern India. Vol. 6.  Madras: Government Press.
-----------------------

Regards,
Palaniappan



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From slindqui at mail.smu.edu  Wed Dec  4 23:13:00 2013
From: slindqui at mail.smu.edu (Lindquist, Steven)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 13 23:13:00 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pub announcement: Religion and Identity/Olivelle	Honorary Volume
Message-ID: <CEC51316.A553%slindqui@smu.edu>

Newly released paperback edition (and at a much more affordable $40/?25):

_Religion and Identity in South Asia and Beyond: Essays in Honor of
Patrick Olivelle_ (New York/London/Delhi: Anthem Press, 2013). 392 pages.
ISBN 978-1783080670. http://tinyurl.com/k2l8zno
<http://tinyurl.com/k2l8zno>

TOC below.

My best,

Steven

STEVEN LINDQUIST, PH.D.
ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, RELIGIOUS STUDIES
DIRECTOR, GLOBAL AND REGIONAL STUDIES INITIATIVE
DIRECTOR, ASIAN STUDIES
____________________

Dedman College of Humanities and Sciences, SMU
PO Box 750202 | Dallas | TX | 75275
Email: slindqui at smu.edu
Web: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui




TABLE OF CONTENTS

STEVEN E. LINDQUIST
Introduction: Patrick Olivelle and Indology 9
Major Publications of Patrick Olivelle 15

I. WORD, TEXT, CONTEXT

TIMOTHY LUBIN: The Elusive Snataka 23

JARROD L. WHITAKER: Who Gets to Live Forever in Ancient India? Rethinking
ayus in the Rgveda 41

STEVEN E. LINDQUIST: One Yajnavalkya... Two? On the (Questionable)
Historicity of a Literary Figure 69

ROBERT A. GOODDING: A Theologian in a South Indian Kingdom: The Historical
Context of the Jivanmuktiviveka of Vidyaranya 83

BRIAN BLACK: The Rhetoric of Secrecy in the Upanishads 101

II. CUSTOM AND LAW

ROBERT A. YELLE: Punishing Puns: Etymology as Linguistic Ideology in Hindu
and British Traditions 129

DONALD R. DAVIS, JR.: Matrilineal Adoption, Inheritance Law, and Rites for
the Dead among Hindus in Medieval Kerala 147

FEDERICO SQUARCINI: Punishing in Public: Imposing Moral Self-Dominance in
Normative Sanskrit Sources 165

III. BUDDHISTS AND JAINS AS SELVES AND OTHERS

OLIVER FREIBERGER: How the Buddha Dealt with Non-Buddhists 185

DANIEL BOUCHER: Sacrifice and Asceticism in Early Mahayana Buddhism 197

LISA N. OWEN: Text and Image: Identifying Ellora?s Jain Deities 225

IV. (RE)CONSIDERING GEOGRAPHICAL AND CONCEPTUAL BOUNDARIES

DEVIN DEWEESE: Spiritual Practice and Corporate Identity in Medieval Sufi
Communities of Iran, Central Asia, and India: The Khalvati/Ishqi/Shattari
Continuum 251

JASON BEDUHN: Digesting the Sacrifices: Ritual Internalization in Jewish,
Hindu, and Manichaean Traditions 301

MANU BHAGAVAN: The Hindutva Underground: Hindu Nationalism and the Indian
National Congress in Late Colonial and Early Postcolonial India 321

LAURA R. BRUECK: Marking the Boundaries of a New Literary Identity: The
Assertion of 'Dalit Consciousness' in Dalit Literary Criticism 347

KARLINE MCLAIN : Young Shvetaketu in America: Learning to be Hindu in the
Diaspora 369







From mcgee at alfred.edu  Thu Dec  5 22:47:32 2013
From: mcgee at alfred.edu (McGee, Mary)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 13 22:47:32 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] devanagari "typesetting"
Message-ID: <9E6586C921FE964381AA4B2DA0C567E40BE2BF3E@Grumman.alfred.edu>

A colleague of mine in Japan who has lined up a Japanese publisher for his book on the Sarva-dar?ana-sa?graha wants to include some of the devanagari text but he needs to find someone to do this for him (as his publisher is not equipped to do so). Any recommendations of a contact for him who might be able to do the prep or typesetting for this?
Thank you.

Mary McGee
Dean and Professor of Religious Studies
College of Liberal Arts & Sciences
Alfred University
mcgee at alfred.edu





From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu  Fri Dec  6 15:47:29 2013
From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 13 09:47:29 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Maxim
Message-ID: <007F2070-6DC7-46F3-A093-CF9CCABB3D61@uts.cc.utexas.edu>

Dear All:

Can anyone enlighten me about the significance of the comparison of a man abandoning his own dharma and taking up that of someone else to the two eyes of a partridge?

svadharma? ya? samuts?jya paradharmarucir bhavet |
cakoranayane caura? sa ??dra? candrasa?nibhe || 

cited by Apar?rka (p. 17) and ascribed to the Skanda Pur??a.

Is this a reference to the eyes of the partridge drinking the moonbeams, thus stealing it? Or is there more to it?

Thanks.

Patrick




From sellmers at gmx.de  Sat Dec  7 17:28:37 2013
From: sellmers at gmx.de (Sven Sellmer)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 13 18:28:37 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Chinese dice
Message-ID: <CAB3EA1B-6C00-4A0B-9039-14E5404B489A@gmx.de>

Dear Colleagues!

On behalf of a colleague doing Chinese studies I would like to ask if anyone happens to know Indian dice of a shape similar to the Chinese ones in the attachment. They have been used for divinatory purposes by Buddhists since the 6th c. CE, so Indian influence seems at least possible. Here is a description of how to produce them (Zhancha shan'e yebao jing ???????, T. 839, 902b23 ff.):

? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ??Good man! The ones who wish to learn the divinatory method of the wooden tops (lit. "wheels"), they should first carve a branch about as big around as a little finger, making it less than one cun [10 cun = 1 chi ?; 1 m  about (3-)4 chi, so less than 3 cm] long. Right from its middle they should let its four sides each be even [i.e. In the center, carve it into a square shape] with the slides sloping inward toward the two ends. They should raise them in the hand and throw them so that they revolve easily. This reason explains why they are called "top/wheel". Moreover, relying upon this divination one can destroy the heretical views and net of doubts of sentient beings, [causing the person] to turn toward the Right Way [so that] they arrive at a place of safety and security. For this reason it is called a "top/wheel".

Any hints will be highly appreciated.

Best wishes,
Sven




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From audrey.truschke at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 22:48:47 2013
From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 13 14:48:47 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Dictionary App for iPhone and iPad
Message-ID: <CAKq175obPDfxMDyJ6Bsr=AvD2uw=ubKUQzhLUPxAH5U+xn6zUA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Indology Folks,

This announcement comes courtesy of Harpreet Singh at Harvard. Exciting
news!

*ANNOUNCEMENT: Sanskrit Dictionary App for **iPhone and iPad*

Our national nightmare of lugging around Monier-Williams is finally over.
 We have just released a Sanskrit dictionary app for iPhone and iPad. The
app, developed in the Harvard Innovation Lab, combines three major
dictionaries that are commonly used by scholars of
Sanskrit--Monier-Williams, Apte and Macdonell. In addition, references from
*dhatu-patha* (a collection of verbal roots with final forms) are also
provided, when available. All words can be searched using a Devanagari
keyboard.  Once downloaded, the app does not require internet access to
operate. Special thanks to the faculty in Harvard's Department of South
Asian Studies for their encouragement and support during the app's
development.

More Information: http://www.tinyurl.com/sanskrit-app

If you missed the announcement about classical Hindi app for iOS and
Android, you can learn about it here: http://tinyurl.com/hindi-app


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From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 22:59:11 2013
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 13 23:59:11 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Dictionary App for iPhone and iPad
In-Reply-To: <CAKq175obPDfxMDyJ6Bsr=AvD2uw=ubKUQzhLUPxAH5U+xn6zUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKA8X40SrOu3JPFwkpHAg6vcJnmzuPMyRW4NJTOeA_Qes6phmQ@mail.gmail.com>

Great work!

Do you have a Mac OSX version to use on laptops?


On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Audrey Truschke
<audrey.truschke at gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear Indology Folks,
>
> This announcement comes courtesy of Harpreet Singh at Harvard. Exciting
> news!
>
> *ANNOUNCEMENT: Sanskrit Dictionary App for **iPhone and iPad*
>
> Our national nightmare of lugging around Monier-Williams is finally over.
>  We have just released a Sanskrit dictionary app for iPhone and iPad. The
> app, developed in the Harvard Innovation Lab, combines three major
> dictionaries that are commonly used by scholars of
> Sanskrit--Monier-Williams, Apte and Macdonell. In addition, references from
> *dhatu-patha* (a collection of verbal roots with final forms) are also
> provided, when available. All words can be searched using a Devanagari
> keyboard.  Once downloaded, the app does not require internet access to
> operate. Special thanks to the faculty in Harvard's Department of South
> Asian Studies for their encouragement and support during the app's
> development.
>
> More Information: http://www.tinyurl.com/sanskrit-app
>
> If you missed the announcement about classical Hindi app for iOS and
> Android, you can learn about it here: http://tinyurl.com/hindi-app
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
James Hartzell, PhD
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
The University of Trento, Italy


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From charlesdisimone at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 23:49:16 2013
From: charlesdisimone at gmail.com (Charles DiSimone)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 13 00:49:16 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Dictionary App for iPhone and iPad
In-Reply-To: <CAKA8X40SrOu3JPFwkpHAg6vcJnmzuPMyRW4NJTOeA_Qes6phmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP2_iYfmb5Lu04qvS9iX4m7E_pez+z-eZSQw20UwRAtZMWN1KQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear James,

If you need an offline Sanskrit dict for OSX there are several options.

With an app called DictUnifier you can turn stardict files into mac
dictionary files and search them from Apple's native dictionary app.  It is
quite convenient and useful, with many dictionaries available (MW, Apte,
the Pali Text Society dict, etc.):

https://code.google.com/p/mac-dictionary-kit/downloads/list

You can also use the Kotonoko app, which has dictionaries available for MW,
Apte, Tibetan dicts, and many others:

http://osx.iusethis.com/app/kotonoko

You can even make the K?ln online MW dict available locally on your hard
drive for offline use:

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/index.html

Additionally, while I am quite pleased to see this new iOS dictionary, I'd
like to point out that there are several Sanskrit dictionaries available in
the app store for free in case anyone wants to save $5 (not that this is an
expensive price for the convenience of these dictionaries in your pocket!).

Best wishes,
Charlie


On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 11:59 PM, James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>wrote:

> Great work!
>
> Do you have a Mac OSX version to use on laptops?
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Audrey Truschke <
> audrey.truschke at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Indology Folks,
>>
>> This announcement comes courtesy of Harpreet Singh at Harvard. Exciting
>> news!
>>
>> *ANNOUNCEMENT: Sanskrit Dictionary App for **iPhone and iPad*
>>
>> Our national nightmare of lugging around Monier-Williams is finally over.
>>  We have just released a Sanskrit dictionary app for iPhone and iPad. The
>> app, developed in the Harvard Innovation Lab, combines three major
>> dictionaries that are commonly used by scholars of
>> Sanskrit--Monier-Williams, Apte and Macdonell. In addition, references from
>> *dhatu-patha* (a collection of verbal roots with final forms) are also
>> provided, when available. All words can be searched using a Devanagari
>> keyboard.  Once downloaded, the app does not require internet access to
>> operate. Special thanks to the faculty in Harvard's Department of South
>> Asian Studies for their encouragement and support during the app's
>> development.
>>
>> More Information: http://www.tinyurl.com/sanskrit-app
>>
>> If you missed the announcement about classical Hindi app for iOS and
>> Android, you can learn about it here: http://tinyurl.com/hindi-app
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
> The University of Trento, Italy
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
Charles DiSimone
Promotionsprogramm Buddhismus-Studien
Department of Indology and Tibetology
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t, M?nchen


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From LubinT at wlu.edu  Sun Dec  8 04:08:23 2013
From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 13 04:08:23 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Dictionary App for iPhone and iPad
In-Reply-To: <CAP2_iYfmb5Lu04qvS9iX4m7E_pez+z-eZSQw20UwRAtZMWN1KQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CEC957F1.220F8%lubint@wlu.edu>

The new Academic Room Skt Dictionary iPhone app sounds great in that it combines multiple dictionaries.  There is also an existing free Monier-Williams app which I have been using till now:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/monier/id580775858?mt=8
Fre
Mac computers: dictionaries can be added to the Dictionary app by inserting .dictionary files into the Dictionary folder inside the system Library folder.  R. Pollock has used DictUnifier (as Charles DiSimone suggests in the preceding message) to produce a decent version of MW:
http://rpollack.net/2009/04/monier-williams-for-apples-dictionaryapp/
(the link to the compressed 40 MB file is buried in the middle of a paragraph:
http://rpollack.net/mw-Sanskrit-English.dictionary.zip

I find it very convenient to be able to search MW using the Mac Dictionary app, though there is the problem that some entries that refer to another entry in another column cannot be tracked down easily, and there are a few miscoded words.

Tim

Timothy Lubin
Professor of Religion
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, Virginia 24450

http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint
http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949



From: Charles DiSimone <charlesdisimone at gmail.com<mailto:charlesdisimone at gmail.com>>
Date: Saturday, December 7, 2013 6:49 PM
To: James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>>
Cc: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Dictionary App for iPhone and iPad

Dear James,

If you need an offline Sanskrit dict for OSX there are several options.

With an app called DictUnifier you can turn stardict files into mac dictionary files and search them from Apple's native dictionary app.  It is quite convenient and useful, with many dictionaries available (MW, Apte, the Pali Text Society dict, etc.):

https://code.google.com/p/mac-dictionary-kit/downloads/list

You can also use the Kotonoko app, which has dictionaries available for MW, Apte, Tibetan dicts, and many others:

http://osx.iusethis.com/app/kotonoko

You can even make the K?ln online MW dict available locally on your hard drive for offline use:

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/index.html

Additionally, while I am quite pleased to see this new iOS dictionary, I'd like to point out that there are several Sanskrit dictionaries available in the app store for free in case anyone wants to save $5 (not that this is an expensive price for the convenience of these dictionaries in your pocket!).

Best wishes,
Charlie


On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 11:59 PM, James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>> wrote:
Great work!

Do you have a Mac OSX version to use on laptops?


On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Audrey Truschke <audrey.truschke at gmail.com<mailto:audrey.truschke at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Indology Folks,

This announcement comes courtesy of Harpreet Singh at Harvard. Exciting news!

ANNOUNCEMENT: Sanskrit Dictionary App for iPhone and iPad

Our national nightmare of lugging around Monier-Williams is finally over.  We have just released a Sanskrit dictionary app for iPhone and iPad. The app, developed in the Harvard Innovation Lab, combines three major dictionaries that are commonly used by scholars of Sanskrit--Monier-Williams, Apte and Macdonell. In addition, references from dhatu-patha (a collection of verbal roots with final forms) are also provided, when available. All words can be searched using a Devanagari keyboard.  Once downloaded, the app does not require internet access to operate. Special thanks to the faculty in Harvard's Department of South Asian Studies for their encouragement and support during the app's development.

More Information: http://www.tinyurl.com/sanskrit-app

If you missed the announcement about classical Hindi app for iOS and Android, you can learn about it here: http://tinyurl.com/hindi-app




_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
http://listinfo.indology.info



--
James Hartzell, PhD
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
The University of Trento, Italy

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
http://listinfo.indology.info



--
Charles DiSimone
Promotionsprogramm Buddhismus-Studien
Department of Indology and Tibetology
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t, M?nchen


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From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 11:46:25 2013
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 13 12:46:25 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Dictionary App for iPhone and iPad
In-Reply-To: <CEC957F1.220F8%lubint@wlu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAKA8X41MnbRzsR7MDTqE_E74=2aG-tVjGCNFBNuvz9cQLJ5Big@mail.gmail.com>

Many thanks to Audrey, Charles and Tim for these suggestions.  I've been
using the pdfs for some time, but as Audrey says, it's a bit slow.  I'll
try out these additional methods.

Audrey I'd like to particularly compliment you and your colleagues on the
feature that shows related compounds, and not just those beginning with the
search-word but also those including it or ending with it (as in
Kotonoko)-extremely useful bit.  Although it's probably not simple, if in
future releases it would be lovely if you can enable expanding and
contracting the view on the phone with fingers, and the option to switch
contrast from white against black background to the reverse.

Charles, your  Kotonoko link is no longer working:
http://osx.iusethis.com/app/kotonoko
but this seems the latest version, 2.1.16
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/kotonoko/id593460126?mt=12&ign-mpt=uo%3D4

I may ping you later for some technical pointers.

Cheers
James



On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 5:08 AM, Lubin, Tim <LubinT at wlu.edu> wrote:

>  The new Academic Room Skt Dictionary iPhone app sounds great in that it
> combines multiple dictionaries.  There is also an existing free
> Monier-Williams app which I have been using till now:
> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/monier/id580775858?mt=8
> Fre
>  Mac computers: dictionaries can be added to the Dictionary app by
> inserting .dictionary files into the Dictionary folder inside the system
> Library folder.  R. Pollock has used DictUnifier (as Charles DiSimone
> suggests in the preceding message) to produce a decent version of MW:
> http://rpollack.net/2009/04/monier-williams-for-apples-dictionaryapp/
> (the link to the compressed 40 MB file is buried in the middle of a
> paragraph:
> *http://rpollack.net/mw-Sanskrit-English.dictionary.zip*<http://rpollack.net/mw-Sanskrit-English.dictionary.zip>
>
>  I find it very convenient to be able to search MW using the Mac
> Dictionary app, though there is the problem that some entries that refer to
> another entry in another column cannot be tracked down easily, and there
> are a few miscoded words.
>
>  Tim
>
>  Timothy Lubin
> Professor of Religion
> Washington and Lee University
> Lexington, Virginia 24450
>
>  http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint
> http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949
>
>
>
>   From: Charles DiSimone <charlesdisimone at gmail.com>
> Date: Saturday, December 7, 2013 6:49 PM
> To: James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>
> Cc: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Dictionary App for iPhone and iPad
>
>   Dear James,
>
>  If you need an offline Sanskrit dict for OSX there are several options.
>
>  With an app called DictUnifier you can turn stardict files into mac
> dictionary files and search them from Apple's native dictionary app.  It is
> quite convenient and useful, with many dictionaries available (MW, Apte,
> the Pali Text Society dict, etc.):
>
>  https://code.google.com/p/mac-dictionary-kit/downloads/list
>
>  You can also use the Kotonoko app, which has dictionaries available for
> MW, Apte, Tibetan dicts, and many others:
>
>  http://osx.iusethis.com/app/kotonoko
>
>  You can even make the K?ln online MW dict available locally on your hard
> drive for offline use:
>
>  http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/index.html
>
>  Additionally, while I am quite pleased to see this new iOS dictionary,
> I'd like to point out that there are several Sanskrit dictionaries
> available in the app store for free in case anyone wants to save $5 (not
> that this is an expensive price for the convenience of these dictionaries
> in your pocket!).
>
>  Best wishes,
> Charlie
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 11:59 PM, James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>  Great work!
>>
>>  Do you have a Mac OSX version to use on laptops?
>>
>>
>>  On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Audrey Truschke <
>> audrey.truschke at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>   Dear Indology Folks,
>>>
>>>  This announcement comes courtesy of Harpreet Singh at Harvard.
>>> Exciting news!
>>>
>>>  *ANNOUNCEMENT: Sanskrit Dictionary App for **iPhone and iPad*
>>>
>>>  Our national nightmare of lugging around Monier-Williams is finally
>>> over.  We have just released a Sanskrit dictionary app for iPhone and iPad.
>>> The app, developed in the Harvard Innovation Lab, combines three major
>>> dictionaries that are commonly used by scholars of
>>> Sanskrit--Monier-Williams, Apte and Macdonell. In addition, references from
>>> *dhatu-patha* (a collection of verbal roots with final forms) are also
>>> provided, when available. All words can be searched using a Devanagari
>>> keyboard.  Once downloaded, the app does not require internet access to
>>> operate. Special thanks to the faculty in Harvard's Department of South
>>> Asian Studies for their encouragement and support during the app's
>>> development.
>>>
>>>  More Information: http://www.tinyurl.com/sanskrit-app
>>>
>>>  If you missed the announcement about classical Hindi app for iOS and
>>> Android, you can learn about it here: http://tinyurl.com/hindi-app
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> James Hartzell, PhD
>> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
>> The University of Trento, Italy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>
>
>  --
>  Charles DiSimone
> Promotionsprogramm Buddhismus-Studien
> Department of Indology and Tibetology
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t, M?nchen
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
James Hartzell, PhD
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
The University of Trento, Italy


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From ambapradeep at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 19:22:41 2013
From: ambapradeep at gmail.com (Amba Kulkarni)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 13 00:52:41 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] One Year PG Diploma in Sanskrit Computational Linguistics
Message-ID: <CAFffahA43DkH3tzygoE6qk2gDautCP-3eTA0SqBkFQ1mKfEe9A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear members,

Department of Sanskrit Studies, University of Hyderabad introduces a new
programme "One year PG Diploma in Sanskrit Computational Linguistics" from
2014-15.

Please see the attachment for more details.

Last date for application (online): 3rd Jan 2014
Website: http://www.uohyd.ac.in

Essential Qualification: M.A. (Sanskrit)
Preferable: Good Knowledge of Vyaakara.na
Selection Procedure: Written test followed by an interview

Foreign nationals visit
http://www.uohyd.ernet.in/index.php/admissions/international-?students/admission
for more details.

With regards,
Amba Kulkarni


-- 
? ?? ?????: ?????? ????? ??????: ll
Let noble thoughts come to us from every side.
- Rig Veda, I-89-i.
Assoc Prof.  and Head
Department of Sanskrit Studies
University of Hyderabad
Prof. C.R. Rao Road
Hyderabad-500 046

(91) 040 23133802(off)

http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/scl
http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/faculty/amba


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From scharfpm7 at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 05:36:17 2013
From: scharfpm7 at gmail.com (Peter Scharf)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 13 11:06:17 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Dictionary
Message-ID: <CAO-4jUnuGz9K0Whybd2u4uJ8G2oqQ6vsMg3LS21giTygN-ZFZg@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations to the Harvard team for creating another Sanskrit-English
Dictionary application.

Indologists should be aware that Sanskrit dictionaries have been available
on the web and in other apps for some time and are currently under
development in a major NEH/DFG-funded project undertaken by The Sanskrit
Library and the University of Cologne (see http://sanskritlibrary.org under
"Projects") or click this
link<http://sanskritlibrary.org/tomcat/sl/BC?name=NEHDFG2009&context=~Personnel,~Projects&title=Digital+Sanskrit+Library+Integration%3C/h1%3E>
.

The Sanskrit Library currently displays (at
http://sanskritlibrary.orgunder "Reference" under "Integrated Sanskrit
Dictionary" an integrated
web interface<http://sanskritlibrary.org/tomcat/sl/FunderburkInterface?type=1>of
10 Sankskrit dictionaries.  We are currently testing on our
development
site an expanded version with 15 dictionaries.  Our project, in conjunction
with the University of Cologne, will soon expand the set even further.  We
expect to offer the entire integrated dictionary in an app next year.

Several years ago Ralph Bunker developed a Monier-Williams app which was
renewed with the organizing direction of Kaj Hoffman and programming of
Gabriel Vincent.

-- 
******************
?***?
Peter M. Scharf
scharf@
?
<peter.scharf at univ-paris-diderot.fr>s
?anskritlibrary.org?

******************
?***?


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From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 08:43:35 2013
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 13 09:43:35 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Dictionary
In-Reply-To: <CAO-4jUnuGz9K0Whybd2u4uJ8G2oqQ6vsMg3LS21giTygN-ZFZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKA8X43FcnqYKt981M3fZ9-aO_EwhEDVz0Nv=hHGUe6GuZmN_w@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Peter for the information on your Integrated Sanskrit Dictionary --
what a fantastic resource; congratulations on such a major achievement.  I
see that your Apte also links to definitions that include the head word,
which is a really useful feature.  It would be lovely if later versions
could include hyperlinks within the definitions--Tony Duff built such a
feature into his Illuminator, and it's often very handy. By the way,  I
noticed that the links to 'Bothlink' and to 'Scharf's Ramopakhyana' don't
seem to be working this morning.  If you could send a link to the app Ralph
Bunker developed that would be great.

Cheers


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:36 AM, Peter Scharf <scharfpm7 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Congratulations to the Harvard team for creating another Sanskrit-English
> Dictionary application.
>
> Indologists should be aware that Sanskrit dictionaries have been available
> on the web and in other apps for some time and are currently under
> development in a major NEH/DFG-funded project undertaken by The Sanskrit
> Library and the University of Cologne (see http://sanskritlibrary.orgunder "Projects") or click this
> link<http://sanskritlibrary.org/tomcat/sl/BC?name=NEHDFG2009&context=~Personnel,~Projects&title=Digital+Sanskrit+Library+Integration%3C/h1%3E>
> .
>
> The Sanskrit Library currently displays (at http://sanskritlibrary.orgunder "Reference" under "Integrated Sanskrit Dictionary" an integrated
> web interface<http://sanskritlibrary.org/tomcat/sl/FunderburkInterface?type=1>of 10 Sankskrit dictionaries.  We are currently testing on our development
> site an expanded version with 15 dictionaries.  Our project, in conjunction
> with the University of Cologne, will soon expand the set even further.  We
> expect to offer the entire integrated dictionary in an app next year.
>
> Several years ago Ralph Bunker developed a Monier-Williams app which was
> renewed with the organizing direction of Kaj Hoffman and programming of
> Gabriel Vincent.
>
> --
>  ******************
> ***
> Peter M. Scharf
> scharf@
> 
> <peter.scharf at univ-paris-diderot.fr>s
> anskritlibrary.org
>
> ******************
> ***
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
James Hartzell, PhD
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
The University of Trento, Italy


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From klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi  Mon Dec  9 09:13:27 2013
From: klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 13 11:13:27 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Maxim
In-Reply-To: <007F2070-6DC7-46F3-A093-CF9CCABB3D61@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <43F2B2FE-F121-44FF-9793-E7A0187CBE2C@helsinki.fi>

Dear Patrick,
it is true that cakora is not only drinking moonbeams, but also deriving pleasure gazing at the moon. But it is also claimed that in the proximity of a poison cakora's red eyes become discoloured (e.g. KA? 1, 20, 8; Su?ruta Kalpa 1, 30?33). Could this explain your case? I have discussed the poison-detecting animals in my article, ?Monkeys kept in Royal Stables?, Traditional South Asian Medicine 6, 2001, 51?61.

Best,
Klaus

Klaus Karttunen
South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies
Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures
PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B)
00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674
Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094
Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi





On Dec 6, 2013, at 5:47 PM, Patrick Olivelle wrote:

> Dear All:
> 
> Can anyone enlighten me about the significance of the comparison of a man abandoning his own dharma and taking up that of someone else to the two eyes of a partridge?
> 
> svadharma? ya? samuts?jya paradharmarucir bhavet |
> cakoranayane caura? sa ??dra? candrasa?nibhe || 
> 
> cited by Apar?rka (p. 17) and ascribed to the Skanda Pur??a.
> 
> Is this a reference to the eyes of the partridge drinking the moonbeams, thus stealing it? Or is there more to it?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Patrick
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info



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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Mon Dec  9 09:16:01 2013
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 13 10:16:01 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Chinese dice
In-Reply-To: <CAB3EA1B-6C00-4A0B-9039-14E5404B489A@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <A1A328C1-B375-494E-82B5-FEF8248F591E@uclouvain.be>

It looks like p??aka-dices, see:

P.-E. Dumont, "Sur le jeu de d?s dans l?Inde ancienne" In : Bulletin de la Classe des Lettres et des Sciences morales et politiques, 5e s?rie, tome 8, Bruxelles : Acad?mie royale des Sciences des Lettres et des Beaux-Arts, 1922, p. 346-362,

with references to the Vidhurapa??itaj?taka, the A??abh?taj?taka, the Littaj?taka etc.

Best wishes,

Le 7 d?c. 2013 ? 18:28, Sven Sellmer a ?crit :

> Dear Colleagues!
> 
> On behalf of a colleague doing Chinese studies I would like to ask if anyone happens to know Indian dice of a shape similar to the Chinese ones in the attachment. They have been used for divinatory purposes by Buddhists since the 6th c. CE, so Indian influence seems at least possible. Here is a description of how to produce them (Zhancha shan'e yebao jing ???????, T. 839, 902b23 ff.):
> 
> ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ??Good man! The ones who wish to learn the divinatory method of the wooden tops (lit. "wheels"), they should first carve a branch about as big around as a little finger, making it less than one cun [10 cun = 1 chi ?; 1 m  about (3-)4 chi, so less than 3 cm] long. Right from its middle they should let its four sides each be even [i.e. In the center, carve it into a square shape] with the slides sloping inward toward the two ends. They should raise them in the hand and throw them so that they revolve easily. This reason explains why they are called "top/wheel". Moreover, relying upon this divination one can destroy the heretical views and net of doubts of sentient beings, [causing the person] to turn toward the Right Way [so that] they arrive at a place of safety and security. For this reason it is called a "top/wheel".
> 
> Any hints will be highly appreciated.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Sven
> 

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle
Louvain-la-Neuve

Editor, Publications de l'Institut Orientaliste de Louvain series
- Last Indological issues: PIOL nos 53, 60, 63, 64 
- Still available: Mah?praj??p?ramit???stra (vols 1-2-3-4-5),  Asa?ga's Mah?y?nasa?graha, Vimalak?rtinirde?a, Lamotte's History of Indian Buddhism, etc.



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From Marion.Rastelli at oeaw.ac.at  Tue Dec 10 15:04:49 2013
From: Marion.Rastelli at oeaw.ac.at (Rastelli, Marion)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 13 15:04:49 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] search for a commentary on the Gadyatraya
Message-ID: <871B9F7982C83A4D886C3396D2FFFB3C0618BD4D@w07exdb2.oeaw.ads>

Dear list members,

I am looking for the following book (or another edition of Sudarsana?s commentary on the Gadyatraya):

Gadyatrayam
Author:

Ra?ma?nuja<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=au%3ARa%CC%84ma%CC%84nuja%2C&qt=hot_author>; Sudars?ana?ca?rya.<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=au%3ASudars%CC%81ana%CC%84ca%CC%84rya.&qt=hot_author>; Sam?skr?ta Sam?s?odhana Sam?sat (Melukote, India)<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=au%3ASam%CC%A3skr%CC%A5ta+Sam%CC%A3s%CC%81odhana+Sam%CC%A3sat+%28Melukote%2C+India%29&qt=hot_author>

Publisher:

Melukote : Samskrta-Samsodhana-Samsat, 2009.

Series:

Academy of Sanskrit Research series<http://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=hotseries&q=se%3A%22Academy+of+Sanskrit+Research+series%22>, no. 65.

Edition/Format:

[cid:image001.gif at 01CEF5C0.819143F0] Book : Sanskrit : PrathamasamskaranamView<http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/722845150/editions?editionsView=true&referer=di> all editions and formats

Database:<http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/722845150/editions?editionsView=true&referer=di>

WorldCat<http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/722845150/editions?editionsView=true&referer=di>

Summary:<http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/722845150/editions?editionsView=true&referer=di>

Three text with commentaries on the doctrines of S?ri? Vaishnava (Sect).<http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/722845150/editions?editionsView=true&referer=di>

Rating:<http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/722845150/editions?editionsView=true&referer=di>


(not yet rated) 0 with reviews - Be the first. <http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/722845150/editions?editionsView=true&referer=di>

Subjects<http://www.worldcat.org/title/gadyatrayam/oclc/722845150?lang=en#reviews>


  *   S?ri? Vaishnava (Sect) -- Doctrines -- Early works to 1800. <http://www.worldcat.org/title/gadyatrayam/oclc/722845150?lang=en#reviews>

I was unable to locate it so far. Any help is appreciated.<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AS%CC%81ri%CC%84+Vaishnava+%28Sect%29+Doctrines+Early+works+to+1800.&qt=hot_subject>
Best,<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AS%CC%81ri%CC%84+Vaishnava+%28Sect%29+Doctrines+Early+works+to+1800.&qt=hot_subject>
Marion Rastelli<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AS%CC%81ri%CC%84+Vaishnava+%28Sect%29+Doctrines+Early+works+to+1800.&qt=hot_subject>
Mag.Dr. Marion Rastelli<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AS%CC%81ri%CC%84+Vaishnava+%28Sect%29+Doctrines+Early+works+to+1800.&qt=hot_subject>
Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AS%CC%81ri%CC%84+Vaishnava+%28Sect%29+Doctrines+Early+works+to+1800.&qt=hot_subject>
Austrian Academy of Sciences<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AS%CC%81ri%CC%84+Vaishnava+%28Sect%29+Doctrines+Early+works+to+1800.&qt=hot_subject>
Apostelgasse 23<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AS%CC%81ri%CC%84+Vaishnava+%28Sect%29+Doctrines+Early+works+to+1800.&qt=hot_subject>
1030 Vienna<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AS%CC%81ri%CC%84+Vaishnava+%28Sect%29+Doctrines+Early+works+to+1800.&qt=hot_subject>
Austria<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AS%CC%81ri%CC%84+Vaishnava+%28Sect%29+Doctrines+Early+works+to+1800.&qt=hot_subject>
Phone +43 1 51581 6417<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AS%CC%81ri%CC%84+Vaishnava+%28Sect%29+Doctrines+Early+works+to+1800.&qt=hot_subject>
Fax +43 1 51581 6410<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AS%CC%81ri%CC%84+Vaishnava+%28Sect%29+Doctrines+Early+works+to+1800.&qt=hot_subject>


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From jneelis at wlu.ca  Tue Dec 10 20:28:34 2013
From: jneelis at wlu.ca (Jason Neelis)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 13 15:28:34 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication announcement: Bulletin of the Asia Institute
Message-ID: <52A733220200007A00082174@gwvia03.wlu.ca>

Dear Colleagues,

It is my pleasure to announce the publication of a special volume of the Bulletin of the Asia Institute with articles contributed in honor of Richard Salomon. Ordering information can be found on the Bulletin's website: http://www.bulletinasiainstitute.org/

Several contributions listed below in the Table of Contents (also attached as pdf) will be of interest to members of this list:
Bulletinof the Asia Institute 23 (2013)
Evo ?uyadi: Essays in Honor ofRichard Salomon?s 65th Birthday
Edited by Carol Altman Bromberg,Timothy J. Lenz, and Jason Neelis
Foreword by Timothy Lenz, JasonNeelis, and Andrew Glass
Michael Shapiro, "RichardSalomon: A Personal Tribute"
Mark Allon, "A G?ndh?r? Versionof the Story of the Merchants Tapussa and Bhallika"
Stefan Baums, "InscribedBuddhist Tablets from Merv"
Daniel Boucher, "What Do We Mean by 'Early' in the Study ofthe Early Mah?y?na?and Should We Care?"
Robert L. Brown, ?Tellingthe Story in Art of the Monkey?s Gift of Honey to the Buddha?
Collett Cox, "What?s in aName? School Affiliation in an Early Buddhist G?ndh?r? Manuscript"
Harry Falk, "Making Wine in Gandhara underBuddhist Monastic Supervision"
Andrew Glass, "Bha"
Paul Harrison, "Verses by ??ntideva in the ?ik??samuccaya: A New English Translation"
Jens-UweHartmann, "The Foolish Cat and the Clever Mouse: Another Parable from anUnknown Story Collection""
Stephanie Jamison, "AnIndo-Iranian Priestly Title Lurking in the Rig Veda? An Indic Equivalent toAvestan karapan" 
Seishi Karashima,  "On Amit?bha, Amit?yu(s), Sukh?vat? andthe Amit?bhavy?ha"
Klaus Karttunen, "Gandh?ra and theGreeks"
Timothy Lenz,"Ephemeral Dharma; MagicalHope"
Abdur Rehman, "A Note on the Etymology ofGandh?ra"
Juhyung Rhi, "The Garu?a and the N?g?/N?ga in theHeaddresses of Gandh?ran
Bodhisattvas: Locating TextualParallels"
Ludo Rocher and Rosanne Rocher,"Indian Epigraphy and the Asiatic Society: The First Fifty Years"
Gregory Schopen, "RegionalLanguages and the Law in Some Early North Indian Buddhist Monasteries andConvents"
Martin Schwartz, "Sa?rtha-and Other Caravan Words"
JonathonSilk, "TheNature ofthe Verses ofthe K??yapaparivarta"
Nicholas Sims-Williams, "Some Bactrian Inscriptions on SilverVessels"
Peter Skilling, "Prakrit Praj??p?ramit?s:Northwest, South, and Center: Gleanings from Avalokitavrata and Haribhadra"
Ingo Strauch, "InscribedObjects from Greater Gandh?ra"
Michael Willis, "Avalokite?varaof the Six Syllables: Locating the Practice of the 'Great Vehicle' in theLandscape of Central India"
Jason Neelis, Review of DavidJongewaard, Elizabeth Errington, Richard Salomon, and Stefan Baums, Gandharan Buddhist Reliquaries

 Jason Neelis
Wilfrid Laurier University






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From alanus1216 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 11 00:56:56 2013
From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 13 16:56:56 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] search for a commentary on the Gadyatraya
In-Reply-To: <871B9F7982C83A4D886C3396D2FFFB3C0618BD4D@w07exdb2.oeaw.ads>
Message-ID: <1386723416.62323.YahooMailNeo@web163005.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Have you tried ordering it, say from Motilal Banarsidass in Delhi?

Also, the Library of Congress online catalog lists this and two other translations sub titulo Gadyatraya.? You could try requesting them by interlibrary loan though that might take quite a while.? 

Also, one of the three titles is available used on Amazon.com for USD 67.

Allen



On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:05 AM, "Rastelli, Marion" <Marion.Rastelli at oeaw.ac.at> wrote:
  
 
Dear list members, 
? 
I am looking for the following book (or another edition of Sudarsana?s commentary on the Gadyatraya): 
? 
Gadyatrayam 
Author:   Ra?ma?nuja; Sudars?ana?ca?rya.; Sam?skr?ta Sam?s?odhana Sam?sat (Melukote, India)    
Publisher:   Melukote : Samskrta-Samsodhana-Samsat, 2009.    
Series:   Academy of Sanskrit Research series, no. 65.     
Edition/Format:   ?Book: Sanskrit : PrathamasamskaranamViewall editions and formats    
Database:   WorldCat    
Summary:   Three text with commentaries on the doctrines of S?ri? Vaishnava (Sect).    
Rating:   (not yet rated) 0 with reviews - Be the first.    
Subjects   	* S?ri?Vaishnava (Sect) -- Doctrines -- Early works to 1800.      
I was unable to locate it so far. Any help is appreciated. 
Best, 
Marion Rastelli 
Mag.Dr. Marion Rastelli 
Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia 
Austrian Academy of Sciences 
Apostelgasse 23 
1030 Vienna 
Austria 
Phone +43 1 51581 6417 
Fax +43 1 51581 6410   
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info/


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From J.L.Brockington at ed.ac.uk  Wed Dec 11 12:06:37 2013
From: J.L.Brockington at ed.ac.uk (BROCKINGTON John)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 13 12:06:37 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] e-mail address request
Message-ID: <D44F5137C1E09F4BB7F1FB59005ADB6A294D0F63EA@EXSEEDMD.is.ed.ac.uk>

Dear Colleagues,

Does anyone have an up-to-date e-mail address for Anna Dallapiccola?  The one that I last used (in Feb 2012) has just been rejected as no longer valid.  Has she perhaps moved from Edinburgh?

Yours

John Brockington


Professor J. L. Brockington
Fellow, Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies
Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit, University of Edinburgh
Vice President, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
-- 
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.






From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu  Wed Dec 11 14:50:04 2013
From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 13 09:50:04 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pirated essay
Message-ID: <52A87B9C.7080702@sas.upenn.edu>

Dear colleagues,

With thanks to Herman Tull, I just found out that an essay of mine was 
reprinted without my knowledge or mention of the source from which it 
was taken, and, worst of all, with misrepresenting changes.

My original essay "Sanskrit and Related Studies in the United States: 
1960--1985" was written for, and published in the proceedings of, 
/Indological Studies & South Asia Bibliography - a Conference/, convened 
in Calcutta at the National Library of India by its then director, the 
late great historian Ashin Dasgupta, in which I participated in 1986 
(pp. 61--92).  A pirated reprint has since appeared in the volume 
/Sanskrit Studies outside India (On the occasion of 10th World Sanskrit 
Conference, Bangalore, Jan 3--9, 1997 /[which I did not attend]/), /New 
Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 1997, edited by the Sansthan's then 
director, Dr. K.K. Mishra, under the truncated title "Sanskrit Studies 
in United States" (pp. 97--152).  I do mind the deletion of "and Related 
Studies," since it was the very point of my essay to assess the state of 
Sanskrit studies contextually, particularly in connection with area 
studies, religious studies, and Indo-European linguistics.  Yet worse is 
the deletion of the period "1960--1985" and passing off the essay as if 
it was still current 11 years later.  I notice that essays about 
Sanskrit Studies in other parts of the world included in the Sansthan's 
volume were current, mentioning dates up to 1996.

Since then, an online version of the Sansthan's volume has appeared, 
which omits the two appendices in my essay (pp. 128--152, equivalent to 
pp. 77--91 of my original essay).  As a consolation, perhaps, the online 
version mercifully also omits the list of contributors to the Sansthan's 
volume (pp. 153--154), in which the 5 half-line entry that concerns me 
manages to feature 4 mistakes: misspelling my name "Roscher," misnaming 
my department "South Asian languages," mauling the name of my university 
as "University of Peninsula," and then again the State in which I reside 
as "Peninsula."  This performance brings back to my mind the French 
phrase with which one of my high school teachers greeted anything stupid 
one of us students had done: "D?p?chons-nous d'en rire, de peur d'en 
pleurer" ("Let's hasten to laugh at this, lest it bring us to tears").

I earnestly request scholars who might be interested in this topic to 
bear in mind the purpose and date of my essay and, if any might wish to 
quote it, to do so with its full, original title, including the period 
covered.

With thanks and best wishes,

Rosane Rocher
Professor Emerita of South Asia Studies
University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
USA ///

/


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From dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 11 16:43:04 2013
From: dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 13 00:43:04 +0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pirated essay
In-Reply-To: <52A87B9C.7080702@sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <1386780184.80224.YahooMailNeo@web193506.mail.sg3.yahoo.com>

11 12 13
Such practice is shamefully carried on. In the nineties the
4th and 5th chapters of my book Mythological and
ritual symbolism, (a young age adventure, written 1974 published 1984
Calcutta) were copied and published in one Encyclopaedia of Tantras by Cosmo Publishers,
Delhi, ostensibly written by one Santi Bhikshu. I questioned the publishers
which was not answered. But legal proceedings were taken thereafter by some
authors abroad whose books too had been plagiarized. The same type of
plagiarism was not heard of for sometime. A new and more virulent type appears.
Popular editions whose authors are dead but copyright exists have been copied and
published without the original editor?s name anywhere. ?
It looks like a regular racket that cannot be checked
without new relevant laws against the practice and subjecting the perpetrators
to legal proceedings and exemplary punishment.
But will anybody hear?
DB 




On Wednesday, 11 December 2013 8:20 PM, Rosane Rocher <rrocher at sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
 
Dear colleagues, 

With thanks to Herman Tull, I just found out that an essay of mine
    was reprinted without my knowledge or mention of the source from
    which it was taken, and, worst of all, with misrepresenting
    changes.? 

My original essay "Sanskrit and Related Studies in the United
    States: 1960?1985" was written for, and published in the proceedings
    of, Indological Studies & South Asia Bibliography - a Conference, convened in Calcutta at the National Library of India by its then director, the late great historian Ashin Dasgupta, in which I participated in 1986 (pp. 61?92).? A pirated reprint has since appeared in the volume Sanskrit Studies outside India (On the occasion of 10th World Sanskrit Conference, Bangalore, Jan 3?9, 1997 [which I did not attend]), New Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 1997, edited by the Sansthan's then director, Dr. K.K. Mishra, under the truncated title "Sanskrit Studies in United States" (pp. 97?152).? I do mind the deletion of "and Related Studies," since it was the very point of my essay to assess the state of Sanskrit studies contextually, particularly in connection with area studies, religious studies, and Indo-European linguistics.? Yet worse is the deletion of the period "1960?1985" and passing off the essay as if it was still current 11 years
 later.? I notice that essays about Sanskrit Studies in other parts of the world included in the Sansthan's volume were current, mentioning dates up to 1996.? 

Since then, an online version of the Sansthan's volume has appeared,
    which omits the two appendices in my essay (pp. 128?152, equivalent
    to pp. 77?91 of my original essay).? As a consolation, perhaps, the
    online version mercifully also omits the list of contributors to the
    Sansthan's volume (pp. 153?154), in which the 5 half-line entry that
    concerns me manages to feature 4 mistakes: misspelling my name
    "Roscher," misnaming my department "South Asian languages," mauling
    the name of my university as "University of Peninsula," and then
    again the State in which I reside as "Peninsula."? This performance
    brings back to my mind the French phrase with which one of my high
    school teachers greeted anything stupid one of us students had done:
    "D?p?chons-nous d'en rire, de peur d'en pleurer" ("Let's hasten to
    laugh at this, lest it bring us to tears").? ? ? 

I earnestly request scholars who might be interested in this topic
    to bear in mind the purpose and date of my essay and, if any might
    wish to quote it, to do so with its full, original title, including
    the period covered.? 

With thanks and best wishes, 

Rosane Rocher
Professor Emerita of South Asia Studies 
University of Pennsylvania 
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 
USA ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 

 
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info


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From J.L.Brockington at ed.ac.uk  Wed Dec 11 16:43:03 2013
From: J.L.Brockington at ed.ac.uk (BROCKINGTON John)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 13 16:43:03 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pirated essay
In-Reply-To: <52A87B9C.7080702@sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <D44F5137C1E09F4BB7F1FB59005ADB6A3929BD17A5@EXSEEDMD.is.ed.ac.uk>

Dear Rosane and other colleagues,

This seems to have been a particularly annoying and frustrating example of what is not so uncommon a misdemeanour by Indian colleagues who should know better.  I have had it happen to me a couple of times (with of course a sizable crop of misprints introduced):

??Sanskrit Epic Tradition III.  Fashions in Formulae??, Proceedings of the Fifth World Sanskrit Conference, Varanasi (New Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 1985): 77-90; unauthorised reprint under a shortened, so inaccurate title in Facets of Indian Culture, ed. by P. C. Muraleemadhavan (Delhi: New Bharatiya Book Corporation, 2000): 475-492.

??The name R??macandra??, in Lex et Litterae: Studies in honour of Professor Oscar Botto, ed. Siegfried Lienhard and Irma Piovano, (Alessandria: Edizioni dell?? Orso, 1997): 83-93; unauthorised reprint (omitting the first paragraph) in Rasika-Bh??rat?? (Prof. R. C. Parikh Commemoration Volume), ed. Bharati Shelat, Sanskrit Sahitya Academy, Gandhinagar, 2005, pp. 183-193]

Yours

John Brockington


Professor J. L. Brockington
Fellow, Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies
Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit, University of Edinburgh
Vice President, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
________________________________________
From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Rosane Rocher [rrocher at sas.upenn.edu]
Sent: 11 December 2013 14:50
To: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pirated essay

Dear colleagues,

With thanks to Herman Tull, I just found out that an essay of mine was reprinted without my knowledge or mention of the source from which it was taken, and, worst of all, with misrepresenting changes.

My original essay "Sanskrit and Related Studies in the United States: 1960?C1985" was written for, and published in the proceedings of, Indological Studies & South Asia Bibliography - a Conference, convened in Calcutta at the National Library of India by its then director, the late great historian Ashin Dasgupta, in which I participated in 1986 (pp. 61?C92).  A pirated reprint has since appeared in the volume Sanskrit Studies outside India (On the occasion of 10th World Sanskrit Conference, Bangalore, Jan 3?C9, 1997 [which I did not attend]), New Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 1997, edited by the Sansthan's then director, Dr. K.K. Mishra, under the truncated title "Sanskrit Studies in United States" (pp. 97?C152).  I do mind the deletion of "and Related Studies," since it was the very point of my essay to assess the state of Sanskrit studies contextually, particularly in connection with area studies, religious studies, and Indo-European linguistics.  Yet worse is the deletion of the period "1960?C1985" and passing off the essay as if it was still current 11 years later.  I notice that essays about Sanskrit Studies in other parts of the world included in the Sansthan's volume were current, mentioning dates up to 1996.

Since then, an online version of the Sansthan's volume has appeared, which omits the two appendices in my essay (pp. 128?C152, equivalent to pp. 77?C91 of my original essay).  As a consolation, perhaps, the online version mercifully also omits the list of contributors to the Sansthan's volume (pp. 153?C154), in which the 5 half-line entry that concerns me manages to feature 4 mistakes: misspelling my name "Roscher," misnaming my department "South Asian languages," mauling the name of my university as "University of Peninsula," and then again the State in which I reside as "Peninsula."  This performance brings back to my mind the French phrase with which one of my high school teachers greeted anything stupid one of us students had done: "D??p??chons-nous d'en rire, de peur d'en pleurer" ("Let's hasten to laugh at this, lest it bring us to tears").

I earnestly request scholars who might be interested in this topic to bear in mind the purpose and date of my essay and, if any might wish to quote it, to do so with its full, original title, including the period covered.

With thanks and best wishes,

Rosane Rocher
Professor Emerita of South Asia Studies
University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
USA


The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.




From dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 11 16:57:31 2013
From: dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 13 00:57:31 +0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pirated essay
In-Reply-To: <D44F5137C1E09F4BB7F1FB59005ADB6A3929BD17A5@EXSEEDMD.is.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <1386781051.56956.YahooMailNeo@web193506.mail.sg3.yahoo.com>

<misdemeanour by Indian colleagues> What is this language? What I reported were apparently misdeeds by publishers. I have not yet got any evidence some colleague was involved. Some self-styled scholars are involved indeed. But accusing Indian colleagues in general is unfair.
DB ??????? 





On Wednesday, 11 December 2013 10:14 PM, BROCKINGTON John <J.L.Brockington at ed.ac.uk> wrote:
 
Dear Rosane and other colleagues,

This seems to have been a particularly annoying and frustrating example of what is not so uncommon a misdemeanour by Indian colleagues who should know better.? I have had it happen to me a couple of times (with of course a sizable crop of misprints introduced):

?Sanskrit Epic Tradition III.? Fashions in Formulae?, Proceedings of the Fifth World Sanskrit Conference, Varanasi (New Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 1985): 77-90; unauthorised reprint under a shortened, so inaccurate title in Facets of Indian Culture, ed. by P. C. Muraleemadhavan (Delhi: New Bharatiya Book Corporation, 2000): 475-492.

?The name R?macandra?, in Lex et Litterae: Studies in honour of Professor Oscar Botto, ed. Siegfried Lienhard and Irma Piovano, (Alessandria: Edizioni dell? Orso, 1997): 83-93; unauthorised reprint (omitting the first paragraph) in Rasika-Bh?rat? (Prof. R. C. Parikh Commemoration Volume), ed. Bharati Shelat, Sanskrit Sahitya Academy, Gandhinagar, 2005, pp. 183-193]

Yours

John Brockington


Professor J. L. Brockington
Fellow, Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies
Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit, University of Edinburgh
Vice President, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
________________________________________

From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Rosane Rocher [rrocher at sas.upenn.edu]
Sent: 11 December 2013 14:50
To: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pirated essay

Dear colleagues,

With thanks to Herman Tull, I just found out that an essay of mine was reprinted without my knowledge or mention of the source from which it was taken, and, worst of all, with misrepresenting changes.

My original essay "Sanskrit and Related Studies in the United States: 1960?1985" was written for, and published in the proceedings of, Indological Studies & South Asia Bibliography - a Conference, convened in Calcutta at the National Library of India by its then director, the late great historian Ashin Dasgupta, in which I participated in 1986 (pp. 61?92).? A pirated reprint has since appeared in the volume Sanskrit Studies outside India (On the occasion of 10th World Sanskrit Conference, Bangalore, Jan 3?9, 1997 [which I did not attend]), New Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 1997, edited by the Sansthan's then director, Dr. K.K. Mishra, under the truncated title "Sanskrit Studies in United States" (pp. 97?152).? I do mind the deletion of "and Related Studies," since it was the very point of my essay to assess the state of Sanskrit studies contextually, particularly in connection with area studies, religious studies, and Indo-European
 linguistics.? Yet worse is the deletion of the period "1960?1985" and passing off the essay as if it was still current 11 years later.? I notice that essays about Sanskrit Studies in other parts of the world included in the Sansthan's volume were current, mentioning dates up to 1996.

Since then, an online version of the Sansthan's volume has appeared, which omits the two appendices in my essay (pp. 128?152, equivalent to pp. 77?91 of my original essay).? As a consolation, perhaps, the online version mercifully also omits the list of contributors to the Sansthan's volume (pp. 153?154), in which the 5 half-line entry that concerns me manages to feature 4 mistakes: misspelling my name "Roscher," misnaming my department "South Asian languages," mauling the name of my university as "University of Peninsula," and then again the State in which I reside as "Peninsula."? This performance brings back to my mind the French phrase with which one of my high school teachers greeted anything stupid one of us students had done: "D?p?chons-nous d'en rire, de peur d'en pleurer" ("Let's hasten to laugh at this, lest it bring us to tears").

I earnestly request scholars who might be interested in this topic to bear in mind the purpose and date of my essay and, if any might wish to quote it, to do so with its full, original title, including the period covered.

With thanks and best wishes,

Rosane Rocher
Professor Emerita of South Asia Studies
University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
USA


The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info


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From J.L.Brockington at ed.ac.uk  Wed Dec 11 17:04:28 2013
From: J.L.Brockington at ed.ac.uk (BROCKINGTON John)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 13 17:04:28 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pirated essay
In-Reply-To: <1386781051.56956.YahooMailNeo@web193506.mail.sg3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D44F5137C1E09F4BB7F1FB59005ADB6A3929BD17A9@EXSEEDMD.is.ed.ac.uk>

Dear Professor Bhattacharya and other colleagues,

In both the cases that I mentioned the editor of the volume where the article reprinted had appeared told me (once by e-mail and in the other instance in person) that they had done so.  In these two instances, therefore, it was the Indian scholar rather than the publisher but I accept that it would have been better not to generalise from these particular instances.

Yours

John Brockington


Professor J. L. Brockington
Fellow, Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies
Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit, University of Edinburgh
Vice President, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
________________________________________
From: Dipak Bhattacharya [dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com]
Sent: 11 December 2013 16:57
To: BROCKINGTON John; Rosane Rocher; indology at list.indology.info
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] pirated essay

<misdemeanour by Indian colleagues> What is this language? What I reported were apparently misdeeds by publishers. I have not yet got any evidence some colleague was involved. Some self-styled scholars are involved indeed. But accusing Indian colleagues in general is unfair.
DB



On Wednesday, 11 December 2013 10:14 PM, BROCKINGTON John <J.L.Brockington at ed.ac.uk> wrote:
Dear Rosane and other colleagues,

This seems to have been a particularly annoying and frustrating example of what is not so uncommon a misdemeanour by Indian colleagues who should know better.  I have had it happen to me a couple of times (with of course a sizable crop of misprints introduced):

??Sanskrit Epic Tradition III.  Fashions in Formulae??, Proceedings of the Fifth World Sanskrit Conference, Varanasi (New Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 1985): 77-90; unauthorised reprint under a shortened, so inaccurate title in Facets of Indian Culture, ed. by P. C. Muraleemadhavan (Delhi: New Bharatiya Book Corporation, 2000): 475-492.

??The name R??macandra??, in Lex et Litterae: Studies in honour of Professor Oscar Botto, ed. Siegfried Lienhard and Irma Piovano, (Alessandria: Edizioni dell?? Orso, 1997): 83-93; unauthorised reprint (omitting the first paragraph) in Rasika-Bh??rat?? (Prof. R. C. Parikh Commemoration Volume), ed. Bharati Shelat, Sanskrit Sahitya Academy, Gandhinagar, 2005, pp. 183-193]

Yours

John Brockington


Professor J. L. Brockington
Fellow, Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies
Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit, University of Edinburgh
Vice President, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
________________________________________

From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>] On Behalf Of Rosane Rocher [rrocher at sas.upenn.edu<mailto:rrocher at sas.upenn.edu>]
Sent: 11 December 2013 14:50
To: indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pirated essay

Dear colleagues,

With thanks to Herman Tull, I just found out that an essay of mine was reprinted without my knowledge or mention of the source from which it was taken, and, worst of all, with misrepresenting changes.

My original essay "Sanskrit and Related Studies in the United States: 1960?C1985" was written for, and published in the proceedings of, Indological Studies & South Asia Bibliography - a Conference, convened in Calcutta at the National Library of India by its then director, the late great historian Ashin Dasgupta, in which I participated in 1986 (pp. 61?C92).  A pirated reprint has since appeared in the volume Sanskrit Studies outside India (On the occasion of 10th World Sanskrit Conference, Bangalore, Jan 3?C9, 1997 [which I did not attend]), New Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 1997, edited by the Sansthan's then director, Dr. K.K. Mishra, under the truncated title "Sanskrit Studies in United States" (pp. 97?C152).  I do mind the deletion of "and Related Studies," since it was the very point of my essay to assess the state of Sanskrit studies contextually, particularly in connection with area studies, religious studies, and Indo-European linguistics.  Yet worse is the deletion of the period "1960?C1985" and passing off the essay as if it was still current 11 years later.  I notice that essays about Sanskrit Studies in other parts of the world included in the Sansthan's volume were current, mentioning dates up to 1996.

Since then, an online version of the Sansthan's volume has appeared, which omits the two appendices in my essay (pp. 128?C152, equivalent to pp. 77?C91 of my original essay).  As a consolation, perhaps, the online version mercifully also omits the list of contributors to the Sansthan's volume (pp. 153?C154), in which the 5 half-line entry that concerns me manages to feature 4 mistakes: misspelling my name "Roscher," misnaming my department "South Asian languages," mauling the name of my university as "University of Peninsula," and then again the State in which I reside as "Peninsula."  This performance brings back to my mind the French phrase with which one of my high school teachers greeted anything stupid one of us students had done: "D??p??chons-nous d'en rire, de peur d'en pleurer" ("Let's hasten to laugh at this, lest it bring us to tears").

I earnestly request scholars who might be interested in this topic to bear in mind the purpose and date of my essay and, if any might wish to quote it, to do so with its full, original title, including the period covered.

With thanks and best wishes,

Rosane Rocher
Professor Emerita of South Asia Studies
University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
USA


The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/>



The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.




From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 17:24:46 2013
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 13 18:24:46 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pirated essay
In-Reply-To: <52A87B9C.7080702@sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeG6SgahwV4W2b3i0OOwwVBszdmpDs=jUiLAo0L=SZQ=A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Rosane, how painful.   I've had similar experiences.

One can write to the culprits, send solicitors' "cease and desist" letters,
etc.  But that may not help much, and is troublesome.

Maybe the most elegant way forward is to get an account at
http://academia.edu, and put your own copy of your paper there, with
suitable framing comments at the top.  You can also mention the pirated
copy, together with any disparaging comments you wish to make.  Anybody
searching for the topic by keyword will find your copy first, probably,
since academia.edu is pretty famous.  But at the least they would find
both, and your attached comments would be visible.

See my "Sanskrit Manuscript Collections outside
India<https://univie.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk/Papers>"
paper at Academia.edu for an example of how I dealt with this issue.

Quite a lot of us are putting our non-copyright papers up on Academia.edu
these days.  It's becoming a valuable discovery tool for new research
publications in one's chosen fields of interest.  I recommend it.

Best,
Dominik


--
Dr Dominik Wujastyk
Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies<http://stb.univie.ac.at>
,
University of Vienna,
Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1
1090 Vienna, Austria
and
Adjunct Professor,
Division of Health and Humanities,
St. John's Research Institute, <http://www.sjri.res.in/> Bangalore, India.
Project <http://www.istb.univie.ac.at/caraka/> | home
page<http://www.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>|
HSSA <http://hssa.sayahna.org> | PGP <http://wujastyk.net/pgp.html>





On 11 December 2013 15:50, Rosane Rocher <rrocher at sas.upenn.edu> wrote:

>  Dear colleagues,
>
> With thanks to Herman Tull, I just found out that an essay of mine was
> reprinted without my knowledge or mention of the source from which it was
> taken, and, worst of all, with misrepresenting changes.
>
> My original essay "Sanskrit and Related Studies in the United States:
> 1960?1985" was written for, and published in the proceedings of, *Indological
> Studies & South Asia Bibliography - a Conference*, convened in Calcutta
> at the National Library of India by its then director, the late great
> historian Ashin Dasgupta, in which I participated in 1986 (pp. 61?92).  A
> pirated reprint has since appeared in the volume *Sanskrit Studies
> outside India (On the occasion of 10th World Sanskrit Conference,
> Bangalore, Jan 3?9, 1997 *[which I did not attend]*), *New Delhi:
> Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 1997, edited by the Sansthan's then director,
> Dr. K.K. Mishra, under the truncated title "Sanskrit Studies in United
> States" (pp. 97?152).  I do mind the deletion of "and Related Studies,"
> since it was the very point of my essay to assess the state of Sanskrit
> studies contextually, particularly in connection with area studies,
> religious studies, and Indo-European linguistics.  Yet worse is the
> deletion of the period "1960?1985" and passing off the essay as if it was
> still current 11 years later.  I notice that essays about Sanskrit Studies
> in other parts of the world included in the Sansthan's volume were current,
> mentioning dates up to 1996.
>
> Since then, an online version of the Sansthan's volume has appeared, which
> omits the two appendices in my essay (pp. 128?152, equivalent to pp. 77?91
> of my original essay).  As a consolation, perhaps, the online version
> mercifully also omits the list of contributors to the Sansthan's volume
> (pp. 153?154), in which the 5 half-line entry that concerns me manages to
> feature 4 mistakes: misspelling my name "Roscher," misnaming my department
> "South Asian languages," mauling the name of my university as "University
> of Peninsula," and then again the State in which I reside as "Peninsula."
> This performance brings back to my mind the French phrase with which one of
> my high school teachers greeted anything stupid one of us students had
> done: "D?p?chons-nous d'en rire, de peur d'en pleurer" ("Let's hasten to
> laugh at this, lest it bring us to tears").
>
> I earnestly request scholars who might be interested in this topic to bear
> in mind the purpose and date of my essay and, if any might wish to quote
> it, to do so with its full, original title, including the period covered.
>
> With thanks and best wishes,
>
> Rosane Rocher
> Professor Emerita of South Asia Studies
> University of Pennsylvania
> Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
> USA
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 12 04:48:43 2013
From: dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 13 12:48:43 +0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pirated essay
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeG6SgahwV4W2b3i0OOwwVBszdmpDs=jUiLAo0L=SZQ=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1386823723.70370.YahooMailNeo@web193503.mail.sg3.yahoo.com>

That is wise. We may recall Nathaniel Hawthorne's complaint against Alexander Dumas. It is painfully human.
DB





On Wednesday, 11 December 2013 10:55 PM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
 
Dear Rosane, how painful.?? I've had similar experiences.


One can write to the culprits, send solicitors' "cease and desist" letters, etc.? But that may not help much, and is troublesome.


Maybe the most elegant way forward is to get an account at http://academia.edu, and put your own copy of your paper there, with suitable framing comments at the top.? You can also mention the pirated copy, together with any disparaging comments you wish to make.? Anybody searching for the topic by keyword will find your copy first, probably, since academia.edu is pretty famous.? But at the least they would find both, and your attached comments would be visible.


See my "Sanskrit Manuscript Collections outside India" paper at Academia.edu for an example of how I dealt with this issue.


Quite a lot of us are putting our non-copyright papers up on Academia.edu these days.? It's becoming a valuable discovery tool for new research publications in one's chosen fields of interest.? I recommend it.

Best,
Dominik




--
Dr Dominik Wujastyk
Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies,
University of Vienna,
Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1
1090 Vienna, Austria
and 
Adjunct Professor, 
Division of Health and Humanities,
St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India.
Project | home page | HSSA | PGP






On 11 December 2013 15:50, Rosane Rocher <rrocher at sas.upenn.edu> wrote:

Dear colleagues, 
>
>With thanks to Herman Tull, I just found out that an essay of mine
    was reprinted without my knowledge or mention of the source from
    which it was taken, and, worst of all, with misrepresenting
    changes.? 
>
>My original essay "Sanskrit and Related Studies in the United
    States: 1960?1985" was written for, and published in the proceedings
    of, Indological Studies & South Asia Bibliography - a Conference, convened in Calcutta at the National Library of India by its then director, the late great historian Ashin Dasgupta, in which I participated in 1986 (pp. 61?92).? A pirated reprint has since appeared in the volume Sanskrit Studies outside India (On the occasion of 10th World Sanskrit Conference, Bangalore, Jan 3?9, 1997 [which I did not attend]), New Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 1997, edited by the Sansthan's then director, Dr. K.K. Mishra, under the truncated title "Sanskrit Studies in United States" (pp. 97?152).? I do mind the deletion of "and Related Studies," since it was the very point of my essay to assess the state of Sanskrit studies contextually, particularly in connection with area studies, religious studies, and Indo-European linguistics.? Yet worse is the deletion of the period "1960?1985" and passing off the essay as if it was still current 11 years
 later.? I notice that essays about Sanskrit Studies in other parts of the world included in the Sansthan's volume were current, mentioning dates up to 1996.? 
>
>Since then, an online version of the Sansthan's volume has appeared,
    which omits the two appendices in my essay (pp. 128?152, equivalent
    to pp. 77?91 of my original essay).? As a consolation, perhaps, the
    online version mercifully also omits the list of contributors to the
    Sansthan's volume (pp. 153?154), in which the 5 half-line entry that
    concerns me manages to feature 4 mistakes: misspelling my name
    "Roscher," misnaming my department "South Asian languages," mauling
    the name of my university as "University of Peninsula," and then
    again the State in which I reside as "Peninsula."? This performance
    brings back to my mind the French phrase with which one of my high
    school teachers greeted anything stupid one of us students had done:
    "D?p?chons-nous d'en rire, de peur d'en pleurer" ("Let's hasten to
    laugh at this, lest it bring us to tears").? ? ? 
>
>I earnestly request scholars who might be interested in this topic
    to bear in mind the purpose and date of my essay and, if any might
    wish to quote it, to do so with its full, original title, including
    the period covered.? 
>
>With thanks and best wishes, 
>
>Rosane Rocher
>Professor Emerita of South Asia Studies 
>University of Pennsylvania 
>Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 
>USA ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 
>
> 
>_______________________________________________
>INDOLOGY mailing list
>INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>http://listinfo.indology.info
>


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info


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From veerankp at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 20:02:22 2013
From: veerankp at gmail.com (Veeranarayana Pandurangi)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 13 01:32:22 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pirated essay
In-Reply-To: <52A87B9C.7080702@sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAPnSTeiP+91-2S3t7HYp13VGy1vGF14Z3GnDcAO5N7d=EBL-xg@mail.gmail.com>

yes it is a big problem.  sorry to hear it.
I will write to my colleagues in rashtriya sanskrit Sansthan so they make
changes to the online version though they no more can do about printed
version.
I hope to correct it.


On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Rosane Rocher <rrocher at sas.upenn.edu>wrote:

>  Dear colleagues,
>
> With thanks to Herman Tull, I just found out that an essay of mine was
> reprinted without my knowledge or mention of the source from which it was
> taken, and, worst of all, with misrepresenting changes.
>
> My original essay "Sanskrit and Related Studies in the United States:
> 1960?1985" was written for, and published in the proceedings of, *Indological
> Studies & South Asia Bibliography - a Conference*, convened in Calcutta
> at the National Library of India by its then director, the late great
> historian Ashin Dasgupta, in which I participated in 1986 (pp. 61?92).  A
> pirated reprint has since appeared in the volume *Sanskrit Studies
> outside India (On the occasion of 10th World Sanskrit Conference,
> Bangalore, Jan 3?9, 1997 *[which I did not attend]*), *New Delhi:
> Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 1997, edited by the Sansthan's then director,
> Dr. K.K. Mishra, under the truncated title "Sanskrit Studies in United
> States" (pp. 97?152).  I do mind the deletion of "and Related Studies,"
> since it was the very point of my essay to assess the state of Sanskrit
> studies contextually, particularly in connection with area studies,
> religious studies, and Indo-European linguistics.  Yet worse is the
> deletion of the period "1960?1985" and passing off the essay as if it was
> still current 11 years later.  I notice that essays about Sanskrit Studies
> in other parts of the world included in the Sansthan's volume were current,
> mentioning dates up to 1996.
>
> Since then, an online version of the Sansthan's volume has appeared, which
> omits the two appendices in my essay (pp. 128?152, equivalent to pp. 77?91
> of my original essay).  As a consolation, perhaps, the online version
> mercifully also omits the list of contributors to the Sansthan's volume
> (pp. 153?154), in which the 5 half-line entry that concerns me manages to
> feature 4 mistakes: misspelling my name "Roscher," misnaming my department
> "South Asian languages," mauling the name of my university as "University
> of Peninsula," and then again the State in which I reside as "Peninsula."
> This performance brings back to my mind the French phrase with which one of
> my high school teachers greeted anything stupid one of us students had
> done: "D?p?chons-nous d'en rire, de peur d'en pleurer" ("Let's hasten to
> laugh at this, lest it bring us to tears").
>
> I earnestly request scholars who might be interested in this topic to bear
> in mind the purpose and date of my essay and, if any might wish to quote
> it, to do so with its full, original title, including the period covered.
>
> With thanks and best wishes,
>
> Rosane Rocher
> Professor Emerita of South Asia Studies
> University of Pennsylvania
> Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
> USA
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi
Head, Dept of Darshanas,
Yoganandacharya Bhavan,
Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post
Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. India

?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ? ??????
???????????????
?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????? ????????
??????????? (?.??.)

http://jrrsanskrituniversity.ac.in/ <jrrsanskrituniversity at ac.in>
http://jrrsanskrituniversity.ac.in/acd1.asp <jrrsanskrituniversity at ac.in>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat


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From uskokov at uchicago.edu  Fri Dec 13 18:11:13 2013
From: uskokov at uchicago.edu (Aleksandar Uskokov)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 13 12:11:13 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] History of Indian Literature, Vol 1. Fasc. 3
Message-ID: <CA+32jrFiwJj0Yos9iRt-g3y=0zcG+PD3YGH=1bCr5kc8SWSUtA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

I need an information whether the third fascicle of the first volume of Jan
Gonda's History of Indian Literature (the volume on the Upanisads, by Jean
Varenne) was ever printed. I did not manage to find any record of it.

Kind regards
Aleksandar


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From pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de  Fri Dec 13 19:24:57 2013
From: pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de (Peter Wyzlic)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 13 20:24:57 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] History of Indian Literature, Vol 1. Fasc. 3
In-Reply-To: <CA+32jrFiwJj0Yos9iRt-g3y=0zcG+PD3YGH=1bCr5kc8SWSUtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7D1A6955-DB7A-4C72-A425-95F5C06FE62C@uni-bonn.de>


Am 13.12.2013 um 19:11 schrieb Aleksandar Uskokov:

> I need an information whether the third fascicle of the first volume of Jan Gonda's History of Indian Literature (the volume on the Upanisads, by Jean Varenne) was ever printed. I did not manage to find any record of it. 

It did not appear. Author and editor passed away; the publisher cancelled the publication years ago. 

All the best
Peter Wyzlic

--
Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften
Bibliothek
Universit?t Bonn
Regina-Pacis-Weg 7
53113 Bonn



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From pf8 at soas.ac.uk  Sun Dec 15 11:21:57 2013
From: pf8 at soas.ac.uk (Peter Flugel)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 13 11:21:57 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] IJJS 2013
Message-ID: <CAF+JJr=7Tjx8oNvpgh+7H0o9jzZY=wNj6SkvydH9qr8sbg1EXQ@mail.gmail.com>

The International Journal of Jaina Studies Vol. 9 has published eight new
articles:


Anek?ntav?da, The Central Philosophy of ?j?vikism

*Author*: Johannes Bronkhorst
*Year*: 2013
International Journal of Jaina Studies (Online) Vol. 9, No. 1 (2013) 1-11
Abstract

?j?vikism, a vanished Indian religion, has been admirably studied by A. L.
Basham in his 1951 monograph. Since then, a renewed study of the existing
evidence has led to an improved understanding of this religion. New
evidence, moreover, has shown that this religion remained intellectually
active and influential at least until the end of the first millennium CE.
This paper will discuss other evidence again, also from the end of the
first millennium, which appears to show that ?j?vikism shared the
*anek?ntav?da* with Jainism, but not only that. Like Jainism, it used the
*anek?ntav?da* to solve a problem that did not arise until many centuries
after the time of Mah?v?ra. It follows that Jainism and ?j?vikism remained
closely in close contact with each other for at least half a millennium
since their beginning, perhaps longer, and shared some crucial intellectual
developments.

Download File (pdf;
97kb)<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file83270.pdf>
  [image: Adobe PDF File Icon]
<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file83323.pdf> A
Neglected ?vet?mbara Narrative Collection, Hemacandras?ri Maladh?rin's
Upade?am?l?svopaj?av?tti Part 1 (With an Appendix on the Funeral of
Abhayadevas?ri Maladh?rin)

*Author*: Paul Dundas
*Year*: 2013
International Journal of Jaina Studies (Online) Vol. 9, No. 2 (2013) 1-47
Abstract

The ?vet?mbara teacher Hemacandra Maladh?rin (eleventh-twelfth century) is
often confused with his near contemporary Hemacandra Kalik?lasarvaj?a. This
paper analyses the sources describing his life and works and goes on to
focus upon his Prakrit verse collection, the *Upade?am?l?*, and his
autocommentary, the *Pu?pam?l?*. Seventy narratives from the *Pu?pam?l?* are
discussed (fifty-eight with identifiable sources, twelve with unidentified
sources). An appendix provides text and  annotated translation of
?r?candras?ri's account of the cremation of Hemacandra Maladh?rin's
teacher Abhayadevas?ri Maladh?rin, possibly the first eye-witness account
of a renunciant funeral in pre-modern India.

Download File (pdf;
349kb)<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file83323.pdf>
  [image: Adobe PDF File Icon]
<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file86526.pdf>
Localized
Literary History: Sub-text and Cultural Heritage in the ?mer ??strabha???r,
A Digambara Manuscript Repository in Jaipur

*Author*: Ulrich Timme Kragh
*Year*: 2013
International Journal of Jaina Studies (Online) Vol. 9, No. 3 (2013) 1-53
Abstract

The article critically discusses the underlying principles for the writing
of literary history. It rejects a universalized model and proposes a new
approach of "localized literary history" that is theoretically rooted in
metahistorical concepts of "textory" and "sub-text". The method takes its
starting point in local text-collections rather than national literature.
With the Jain *?mer ??strabha??h?r* repository in Jaipur as a point of
departure, it is demonstrated how a study of a local manuscript collection
reveals a literary history, which cannot be encountered by the
universalized approach.

Download File (pdf;
248kb)<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file86526.pdf>
  [image: Adobe PDF File Icon]
<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file86527.pdf> A
One-Valued Logic for Non-One-Sidedness

*Author*: Fabien Schang
*Year*: 2013
International Journal of Jaina Studies (Online) Vol. 9, No. 4 (2013) 1-25
Abstract

The Jain *saptabha?g? *is well-known for its general stance of
non-one-sidedness. After a number of debates about the occurrence of
contradictory sentences inside the so-called "Jain logic", three main
theses are presented in the following: the *saptabha?g? *is a theory of
judgment giving an exhaustive list of possible statements; it is not a
"logic" in the modern sense of the word, given that no consequence relation
appears in it; the Jain *saptabha?g? *can be viewed as a dual of the
Madhyamaka *catu?ko?i*, where four possible statements are equally denied. A
formal semantics is proposed to account for these theses, namely: a
Question-Answer Semantics, in which a basic question-answer game makes
sense of every statement with the help of structured logical values. Some
new light will be also thrown upon the controversial notion of *avaktavyam*:
instead of being taken as a case of true contradiction, our semantics will
justify a reduction of the Jain theory of non-one-sidedness to a one-valued
system of question-answer games.

Download File (pdf;
164kb)<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file86527.pdf>
  [image: Adobe PDF File Icon]
<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file86546.pdf> The
Perfect Body of the Jina and His Imperfect Image

*Author*: Phyllis Granoff
*Year*: 2013
International Journal of Jaina Studies (Online) Vol. 9, No. 5 (2013) 1-21
Abstract

The *Yuktiprabodha* of the ?vet?mbara monk Meghavijaya engages the views of
B???ras?d?s and the adhy?tma movement on a number of issues.  This paper
explores their debate about whether or not it was appropriate to adorn
images of the Jina. B???ras?d?s argued emphatically that adorning the image
did violence to the Jina, who as a renunciant had abandoned all forms of
adornment.  Meghavijaya argued that it was only by adorning the Jina image
that a sense of the Jina?s extraordinary beauty and radiance could be
conveyed. In the course of the debate Meghavijaya raises far-reaching
questions about how images function and how they are actually ?seen? by
worshippers.

Download File (pdf;
126kb)<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file86546.pdf>
  [image: Adobe PDF File Icon]
<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file86952.pdf> Muni
Ratnacandra?s Nine Jain Questions for Christians

*Author*: Peter Friedlander
*Year*: 2013
International Journal of Jaina Studies (Online) Vol. 9, No. 6 (2013) 1-30
Abstract

This article examines a rare, and possibly unique, manuscript which
describes an encounter between Jain monks and Christian?s from an unknown
denomination of Padres which took place in 1854 at an unidentified location
either in R?jasth?n or the Pa?j?b or possibly in Agra. What makes this work
so interesting is that whilst there has been considerable scholarship on
the early stages of Buddhist-Christian and Hindu-Christian debates there
has been little work on encounters between Jains and Christians. The work
takes the form of nine questions posed by Muni Ratnacandra (1793-1864)
disciple of Muni Harj?mal (1783-1832) of the Manohard?s order of the
anti-iconic Sth?nakav?s? tradition. The questions which Christians should
be asked reveal unique features in how Jain tradition responded to
encounters with Christians. I argue that the main arguments deployed
against Christianity in the text are all adapted from earlier Jain
arguments deployed against other teachings. The importance of this text
then is that it allows us to have a unique insight into how Jain vernacular
tradition responded to Christianity during the mid 19th century.

Download File (pdf;
257kb)<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file86952.pdf>
  [image: Adobe PDF File Icon]
<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file87872.pdf>
?Today
I Play Hol? in My City? Digambar Jain Hol? Songs From Jaipur

*Author*: John E. Cort
*Year*: 2013
International Journal of Jaina Studies (Online) Vol. 9, No. 7 (2013) 1-50
Abstract

The springtime festival of Hol? has long posed a problem for Jains.  Jain
ideologues have criticized the celebration of Hol? as contravening several
key Jain ethical virtues.  In response, Digambar Jain poets developed a
genre of Hol? songs that transformed the elements of Hol? into a complex
spiritual allegory, and thereby ?tamed? the transgressive festival.  This
essay analyzes the six Hol? songs (*pad*) by the poet Budhjan (*fl.* CE
1778-1838) of Jaipur.  An investigation of this Digambar genre of Hol?
songs encourages us to see that many of the ?Hindu? Hol? songs from this
same period were also engaged in a process of reframing and taming Hol?.
Both Hindu and Jain songs translated its antinomian and transgressive
elements into softer, less threatening sets of metaphors specific to their
spiritual traditions.

Download File (pdf;
302kb)<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file87872.pdf>
  [image: Adobe PDF File Icon]
<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file88721.pdf>
Prabh?candra?s
Status In The History Of Jaina Philosophy

*Author*: Jayandra Soni
*Year*: 2013
International Journal of Jaina Studies (Online) Vol. 9, No. 8 (2013) 1-13
Abstract

In dealing with the history of Jaina philosophical speculation after the
age of the ?gamas, K. K. Dixit in his now well-known 1971 work *Jaina
Ontology* (pp. 88?164) conveniently divides the specu?lations into three
stages which he calls the ?Ages of Logic?. It is Prabh?candra, one of the
thinkers of the third stage (apart from Abhayadeva, V?dideva and
Ya?ovijaya) which concerns the content of this paper, because Dixit makes
contrary statements about him. On the one hand, he says that ?the range of
Prabh?candra?s enquiry was less comprehensive than that of Vidy?nanda
and his treatment of topics less advanced than that of the latter? (p.
103). And, on the other hand, on p. 156, he says that Prabh?candra ?had
made it a point to introduce in his commentaries an exhaustive and
systematic discussion of the major philosophical issues of his times? (even
including aspects not found in his predecessors, e.g. theories of error).

Download File (pdf;
178kb)<http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file88721.pdf>

-- 
Dr Peter Fl?gel
Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies
Department of the Study of Religions
Faculty of Arts and Humanities
School of Oriental and African Studies
University of London
Thornhaugh Street
Russell Square
London WC1H OXG

Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776
E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk
http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies


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From pf8 at soas.ac.uk  Sun Dec 15 11:46:11 2013
From: pf8 at soas.ac.uk (Peter Flugel)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 13 11:46:11 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] 16th Jaina Studies Workshop at SOAS 20-21 March 2014
Message-ID: <CAF+JJrnkt3jmkxaF49We-rkxQHv8qZx4rOoWdckH_Yn9bVmr4w@mail.gmail.com>

*Jaina Hagiography and Biography*

*16th Jaina Studies Workshop at SOAS*



*The 14th Annual Jaina Lecture*

Thursday, 20th March 2014

18.00-19.30 SOAS, Brunei Gallery Lecture Theatre



Saryu Doshi (Mumbai)

*The Lifes of the T?rtha?karas in Illustrated Jaina Manuscripts*



19.30 Reception Brunei Gallery Suite



*Workshop*

Friday, 21st March 2014, SOAS, Brunei Gallery Lecture Theatre



9.00     Tea and Coffee



*First Session: Early Jaina Hagiography and Biography*



9.15     Bansidhar Bhatt (Ahmedabad)

*Phases 1-4 Type Biographic Verses in the ?va?yaka-Niryukti as the Main
Sources for Later Biographies of T?rtha?karas, etc. in Jainism*



9.45     Renate S?hnen-Thieme (SOAS)

*??abha and Bharata in Hindu Pur??as*



10.15   Ruth Satinsky (University of Lausanne)

*What the Lifespans of ??abha, Bharata, ?rey??sa, and Ara can tell us about
the History of the Concept of Mount Meru*



10.45  Tea & Coffee



*Second Session: Medieval and Early Modern Jaina Hagiography and Biography*



11.15   Eva De Clerq (University of Ghent, Belgium)

*Biographies of ??abha and the Rise of ?atru?jaya*



11.45   Anna Esposito (University of W?rzburg, Germany)

*Why Narrating the Same Biography Twice? Tivi??hu, Ayala and ?sagg?va in
Sa?ghad?sa?s Vasudevahi???*



12.15   Steven M. Vose (Florida International University, USA)

*A Kharatara Gaccha Monk in the Tap? Gaccha Imaginaire:  Tap? Gaccha
Re-tellings of the Life of Jinaprabhas?ri*



12.45   Group Photo



13.00   Lunch: Brunei Gallery Suite



*Third Session: Narrating Lives*



14.00   Sin Fujinaga (Miyakonojo, Miyazaki, Japan)

*Biography of the Jaina Monk Jamb?vijaya*



14.30   Andrea Luithle-Hardenberg (University of T?bingen, Germany)

*R?macandras?ri (1897-1992): A Life Between Consistent Asceticism and
Political Controversies*



15.00   Whitney M. Kelting (Northeastern University, USA)

*Great Nun as Mother: Hagiography and the Biography of Divyaprabh??r?j?*



15.30   Tea & Coffee



*Fourth Session: Analytical Perspectives*



16.00   Luitgard Soni (Innsbruck)

*Lifes' Ends: Jaina Modes of Dying in ?r?dhan? Texts*



16.30   Tillo Detige (University of Ghent, Belgium)

*Singing the Praises of the Bha???rakas: Hagiographic Writings on
North-Indian Digambara Pontiffs*



17.00 Peter Fl?gel & Kornelius Kr?mpelmann (SOAS)

*Johannes Klatt?s Jaina Onomasticon*



Brief Break



*Fifth Session: Final Discussion & Remarks*



17.45-18.00



Free and Open to All!



Donations invited.



Contact: Centres at soas.ac.uk

-- 
Dr Peter Fl?gel
Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies
Department of the Study of Religions
Faculty of Arts and Humanities
School of Oriental and African Studies
University of London
Thornhaugh Street
Russell Square
London WC1H OXG

Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776
E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk
http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies


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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 16 07:41:40 2013
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 13 07:41:40 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_me=E1=B9=ADa_'a_whitewashed_storeyed_house'_L.?=
In-Reply-To: <DUB114-W109DE3CE28AB4186E9BF62CA5D80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <DUB114-W1034904EE0B469FF6083FB6A5D80@phx.gbl>




Dear colleagues,

I am trying to find the source for this "L." entry in Monier-Williams. Normally, one finds a Ko?a reference by checking in PW, or if that fails in pw. Neither PW nor pw seems to have been Monier-WIlliams' source, and the Nachtr?ge don't contain this lemma either. So I am at a loss. Can anyone tell me in what source Monier-Williams may have found this word? Or, more interestingly, can anyone tell me where it is attested, whether "lexicographically" or elsewhere?

Thank you. Best wishes,

Arlo Griffiths
EFEO/Jakarta


 		 	   		  
 		 	   		  


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From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 08:27:39 2013
From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 13 03:27:39 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09me=E1=B9=ADa_'a_whitewashed_storeyed_house'_L.?=
In-Reply-To: <DUB114-W1034904EE0B469FF6083FB6A5D80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAOXgviqdJon3dhp0mO3gEOqqfmDev4k4kR5CU0S_8EcOyu9oMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Don't know about a Ko?a reference, but the word clearly betrays a Dravidian
connection. See [DEDR 4796] <http://kolichala.com/DEDR/search.php?q=4796> and
[CDIAL 9996<http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.3:1:447.soas>
].

Burrow discusses this word in "Dravidian Studies VII", *Bulletin of the
School of Oriental and African Studies*, University of London, Vol. 12,No.
2 (1948), pp. 365-396 (See entries 259 and 275).

275. *me?a*- m. a whitewashed, storied house, L. [Pkt. *me?aya*-; Guj.
*me??*, *me?o *an upper storey, etc.].
    ~ Te. *m??a *a house of two or more stories, Ta. *m??ai *raised floor,
platform, terraced house. Cf. *m??i*.


Regards,
Suresh.


On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:41 AM, Arlo Griffiths
<arlogriffiths at hotmail.com>wrote:

>  Dear colleagues,
>
> I am trying to find the source for this "L." entry in Monier-Williams.
> Normally, one finds a Ko?a reference by checking in PW, or if that fails in
> pw. Neither PW nor pw seems to have been Monier-WIlliams' source, and the
> Nachtr?ge don't contain this lemma either. So I am at a loss. Can anyone
> tell me in what source Monier-Williams may have found this word? Or, more
> interestingly, can anyone tell me where it is attested, whether
> "lexicographically" or elsewhere?
>
> Thank you. Best wishes,
>
> Arlo Griffiths
> EFEO/Jakarta
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 16 11:39:04 2013
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 13 11:39:04 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] N. Dutt, Gilgit Manuscripts, vol. I
Message-ID: <DUB114-W970CCF9792E338F02F21ECA5D80@phx.gbl>

Dear colleagues,

Would anybody have a pdf scan of the following work handy?


  Dutt, Nalinaksha (with ?ivan?tha ?arm?, D. M. Bhattacharya, and ?ryacandra). 1939. Gilgit manuscripts. K??m?rasa?skr?tagranth?vali? 71. Calcutta, India: Published by J. C. Sarkhel at the Calcutta oriental press.
  

If so, I would be very grateful if you could send it to me by email or through wetransfer.

Best wishes,

Arlo Griffiths
EFEO/Jakarta



 		 	   		  


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Dec 16 11:45:04 2013
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 13 06:45:04 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] N. Dutt, Gilgit Manuscripts, vol. I
In-Reply-To: <DUB114-W970CCF9792E338F02F21ECA5D80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzde=k5rx6mKa=xbZUXKyU0kduz2QpiKPAH+FK5OdVnCNA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Arlo,

     I am sending the pdf of this book through WeTransfer.  Best,

Madhav


On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 6:39 AM, Arlo Griffiths
<arlogriffiths at hotmail.com>wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> Would anybody have a pdf scan of the following work handy?
>
> Dutt, Nalinaksha (with ?ivan?tha ?arm?, D. M. Bhattacharya, and
> ?ryacandra). 1939. *Gilgit manuscripts*. K??m?rasa?skr?tagranth?vali? 71.
> Calcutta, India: Published by J. C. Sarkhel at the Calcutta oriental press.
>
> If so, I would be very grateful if you could send it to me by email or
> through wetransfer.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Arlo Griffiths
> EFEO/Jakarta
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



-- 
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA


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From antonio.jardim at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 11:59:21 2013
From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com (antonio.jardim at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 13 11:59:21 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] N. Dutt, Gilgit Manuscripts, vol. I
In-Reply-To: <DUB114-W970CCF9792E338F02F21ECA5D80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1485652345-1387195160-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1778701798-@b14.c3.bise3.blackberry>

Hi Arlo & colleagues, 

This volume (and the others in Dutt's GM series) is available from the DLI here: http://www.dli.gov.in/scripts/FullindexDefault.htm?path1=/data6/upload/0137/490&first=1&last=267&barcode=99999990003331

Kind regards,
Antonio
Sent via BlackBerry? from Vodafone

-----Original Message-----
From: Arlo Griffiths <arlogriffiths at hotmail.com>
Sender: "INDOLOGY" <indology-bounces at list.indology.info>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 11:39:04 
To: indology at list.indology.info<indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] N. Dutt, Gilgit Manuscripts, vol. I

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info




From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 16 12:12:42 2013
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 13 12:12:42 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] N. Dutt, Gilgit Manuscripts, vol. I
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzde=k5rx6mKa=xbZUXKyU0kduz2QpiKPAH+FK5OdVnCNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB114-W198A5ED56ECE7637418C26A5D80@phx.gbl>

Thanks, Madhav, Stefan and Antonio!

Best wishes,

Arlo

Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 06:45:04 -0500
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] N. Dutt, Gilgit Manuscripts, vol. I
From: mmdesh at umich.edu
To: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com
CC: indology at list.indology.info

Hello Arlo,

     I am sending the pdf of this book through WeTransfer.  Best,

Madhav


On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 6:39 AM, Arlo Griffiths <arlogriffiths at hotmail.com> wrote:




Dear colleagues,

Would anybody have a pdf scan of the following work handy?


  Dutt, Nalinaksha (with ?ivan?tha ?arm?, D. M. Bhattacharya, and ?ryacandra). 1939. Gilgit manuscripts. K??m?rasa?skr?tagranth?vali? 71. Calcutta, India: Published by J. C. Sarkhel at the Calcutta oriental press.

  

If so, I would be very grateful if you could send it to me by email or through wetransfer.

Best wishes,

Arlo Griffiths
EFEO/Jakarta



 		 	   		  

_______________________________________________

INDOLOGY mailing list

INDOLOGY at list.indology.info

http://listinfo.indology.info


-- 
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures

202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA

 		 	   		  


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From vbd203 at googlemail.com  Mon Dec 16 19:47:25 2013
From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 13 13:47:25 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09me=E1=B9=ADa_'a_whitewashed_storeyed_house'_L.?=
In-Reply-To: <CAOXgviqdJon3dhp0mO3gEOqqfmDev4k4kR5CU0S_8EcOyu9oMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAETY2G04za+5ym7kVj1mPdYsssHY+pNgDYohkuyOp+_HZ-pk4A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Arlo,

In Oppert's edition of the Vaijayant? ??? occurs on p. 161 l. 57 (
https://archive.org/details/Vaijayanti). In his glossary he lists the
definition as "*m*, white washed upstair (sic) house." Later editions of
this ko?a should probably be consulted as I've found a number of
discrepancies between Oppert's text and citations in commentaries and the
commentators seem to have a superior reading.

[image: Inline image 1]
All the Best,
Victor


On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:27 AM, Suresh Kolichala <
suresh.kolichala at gmail.com> wrote:

> Don't know about a Ko?a reference, but the word clearly betrays a
> Dravidian connection. See [DEDR 4796]<http://kolichala.com/DEDR/search.php?q=4796> and
> [CDIAL 9996<http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.3:1:447.soas>
> ].
>
> Burrow discusses this word in "Dravidian Studies VII", *Bulletin of the
> School of Oriental and African Studies*, University of London, Vol.
> 12,No. 2 (1948), pp. 365-396 (See entries 259 and 275).
>
> 275. *me?a*- m. a whitewashed, storied house, L. [Pkt. *me?aya*-; Guj.
> *me??*, *me?o *an upper storey, etc.].
>     ~ Te. *m??a *a house of two or more stories, Ta. *m??ai *raised
> floor, platform, terraced house. Cf. *m??i*.
>
>
> Regards,
> Suresh.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:41 AM, Arlo Griffiths <arlogriffiths at hotmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>>  Dear colleagues,
>>
>> I am trying to find the source for this "L." entry in Monier-Williams.
>> Normally, one finds a Ko?a reference by checking in PW, or if that fails in
>> pw. Neither PW nor pw seems to have been Monier-WIlliams' source, and the
>> Nachtr?ge don't contain this lemma either. So I am at a loss. Can anyone
>> tell me in what source Monier-Williams may have found this word? Or, more
>> interestingly, can anyone tell me where it is attested, whether
>> "lexicographically" or elsewhere?
>>
>> Thank you. Best wishes,
>>
>> Arlo Griffiths
>> EFEO/Jakarta
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 16 23:07:42 2013
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 13 23:07:42 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_me=E1=B9=ADa_'a_whitewashed_storeyed_house'_L.?=
In-Reply-To: <CAETY2G04za+5ym7kVj1mPdYsssHY+pNgDYohkuyOp+_HZ-pk4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB114-W27824E7CCB9D87AC023CF3A5D80@phx.gbl>

Dear Victor,

Many thanks. This, I presume, will have been Monier Williams' source.

Best wishes,

Arlo

Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:47:25 -0600
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] me?a 'a whitewashed storeyed house' L.
From: vbd203 at googlemail.com
To: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com
CC: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com; indology at list.indology.info

Dear Arlo,
In Oppert's edition of the Vaijayant? ??? occurs on p. 161 l. 57 (https://archive.org/details/Vaijayanti). In his glossary he lists the definition as "m, white washed upstair (sic) house." Later editions of this ko?a should probably be consulted as I've found a number of discrepancies between Oppert's text and citations in commentaries and the commentators seem to have a superior reading.


All the Best,Victor

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:27 AM, Suresh Kolichala <suresh.kolichala at gmail.com> wrote:

Don't know about a Ko?a reference, but the word clearly betrays a Dravidian connection. See [DEDR 4796] and [CDIAL 9996]. 


Burrow discusses this word in "Dravidian Studies VII", Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 12,No. 2 (1948), pp. 365-396 (See entries 259 and 275).


275. me?a- m. a whitewashed, storied house, L. [Pkt. me?aya-; Guj. me??, me?o an upper storey, etc.].    ~ Te. m??a a house of two or more stories, Ta. m??ai raised floor, platform, terraced house. Cf. m??i.



Regards,Suresh.

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:41 AM, Arlo Griffiths <arlogriffiths at hotmail.com> wrote:








Dear colleagues,

I am trying to find the source for this "L." entry in Monier-Williams. Normally, one finds a Ko?a reference by checking in PW, or if that fails in pw. Neither PW nor pw seems to have been Monier-WIlliams' source, and the Nachtr?ge don't contain this lemma either. So I am at a loss. Can anyone tell me in what source Monier-Williams may have found this word? Or, more interestingly, can anyone tell me where it is attested, whether "lexicographically" or elsewhere?



Thank you. Best wishes,

Arlo Griffiths
EFEO/Jakarta


 		 	   		  
 		 	   		  

_______________________________________________

INDOLOGY mailing list

INDOLOGY at list.indology.info

http://listinfo.indology.info



_______________________________________________

INDOLOGY mailing list

INDOLOGY at list.indology.info

http://listinfo.indology.info

 		 	   		  


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From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 06:16:50 2013
From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 13 11:46:50 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.54.1386176413.18992.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <CAK2tbYzSXwKyGq1-0JtaUnTSSei4u+Spq5-SaOstZ0rhZM2pcA@mail.gmail.com>

my question today is regarding diacritical output. I normally use
http://www.learnsanskrit.org/tools/sanscript
for the Roman conversion (IAST). (eg ??? -da??a )Will the experts in the
group confirm whether the output is as per the guidelines?
Rupali Mokashi

http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/


On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 10:30 PM, <indology-request at list.indology.info>wrote:

> Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to
>         indology at list.indology.info
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
> http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info
>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         indology-request at list.indology.info
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         indology-owner at list.indology.info
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Kuiper's Proto-Munda Words (Fran?ois Voegeli)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 17:11:07 +0100
> From: Fran?ois Voegeli <francois.voegeli at unil.ch>
> To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuiper's Proto-Munda Words
> Message-ID: <8ACC8038-92C5-440C-BED3-E4649D12038E at unil.ch>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Dear Members of the List,
>
> Does anyone know where to finde an electronic copy of the above-mentioned
> work of Kuiper?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
>
>
> Dr Fran?ois Voegeli
>
> Senior FNS Researcher
> Institut d'Arch?ologie et des Sciences de l'Antiquit?
> Anthropole, bureau 4018
> Facult? des Lettres
> Universit? de Lausanne
> CH-1015 Lausanne
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5
> ***************************************
>


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From dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 17 11:25:04 2013
From: dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 13 19:25:04 +0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <CAK2tbYzSXwKyGq1-0JtaUnTSSei4u+Spq5-SaOstZ0rhZM2pcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1387279504.51438.YahooMailNeo@web193501.mail.sg3.yahoo.com>

?
17 12
13
The
following statement of facts is made irrespective of the various guidelines issued
by different publishing authorites.
Da??a??? is
more Hindi orthography than pronunciation -- Sanskrit or NIA. Da??a ????, sa?khy????????, instead
of sa?khy???????, sa?caya ????? instead ofsa?caya????? more correctly present the pronunciation. According to a
widely prevalent mode of assimilation,? m, also n, modifies itself
into a nasal consonant before a plosive according to the latter?s place of
articulation. 
North
India?s Hindi press prefers the anusv?ra, apparently, for the sake of
economy. But this economy of alphabets will be found in manuscripts too. ???The orthographical levelling hides the actual
pronunciation.
DB
?




On Tuesday, 17 December 2013 11:47 AM, Dr. Rupali Mokashi <dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com> wrote:
 
my question today is regarding diacritical output. I normally use?
http://www.learnsanskrit.org/tools/sanscript

for the Roman conversion (IAST). (eg ??? -da??a )Will the experts in the group confirm whether the output is as per the guidelines?
Rupali Mokashi


http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/ 


On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 10:30 PM, <indology-request at list.indology.info> wrote:

Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to
>? ? ? ? indology at list.indology.info
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>? ? ? ? http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info
>
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>? ? ? ? indology-request at list.indology.info
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>? ? ? ? indology-owner at list.indology.info
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>? ?1. Kuiper's Proto-Munda Words (Fran?ois Voegeli)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 17:11:07 +0100
>From: Fran?ois Voegeli <francois.voegeli at unil.ch>
>To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
>Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuiper's Proto-Munda Words
>Message-ID: <8ACC8038-92C5-440C-BED3-E4649D12038E at unil.ch>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>Dear Members of the List,
>
>Does anyone know where to finde an electronic copy of the above-mentioned work of Kuiper?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>
>
>
>Dr Fran?ois Voegeli
>
>Senior FNS Researcher
>Institut d'Arch?ologie et des Sciences de l'Antiquit?
>Anthropole, bureau 4018
>Facult? des Lettres
>Universit? de Lausanne
>CH-1015 Lausanne
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Subject: Digest Footer
>
>_______________________________________________
>INDOLOGY mailing list
>INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5
>***************************************
>

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info


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From andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu  Tue Dec 17 22:07:27 2013
From: andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu (Andrew Nicholson)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 13 16:07:27 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
Message-ID: <CAFZJJzHjueQptgnQMy+Jc2c67uazBJWq1z_Oi4qmbtpwC_kJxw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

I am pleased to announce that my first book, *Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy
and Identity in Indian Intellectual History, *is now available in an
affordable paperback edition from Columbia University Press.

In addition, if you enter the discount code UNINIC when ordering the
paperback edition from the Columbia University Press website you will
receive $8.40 off the normal list price of $28.

For more information on the contents of the book, please click on the link
or see below.

http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-14986-0/

Warmest season's greetings,
Andrew
_____________________________________
Andrew J. Nicholson
Associate Professor
SUNY Stony Brook
Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
Tel: (631) 632-4030  Fax: (631) 632-4098
http://sbsuny.academia.edu/AndrewNicholson

--------
Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History
Paper, 280 pages,
ISBN: 978-0-231-14987-7
$28.00 / ?19.50

*Winner of the Book Award for Best First Book in the History of Religions,
American Academy of Religion*

Some postcolonial theorists argue that the idea of a single system of
belief known as "Hinduism" is a creation of nineteenth-century British
imperialists. Andrew J. Nicholson introduces another perspective: although
a unified Hindu identity is not as ancient as some Hindus claim, it has its
roots in innovations within South Asian philosophy from the fourteenth to
seventeenth centuries. During this time, thinkers treated the philosophies
of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva,
and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead
of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned
them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate
reality.

Drawing on the writings of philosophers from late medieval and early modern
traditions, including Vijnanabhiksu, Madhava, and Madhusudana Sarasvati,
Nicholson shows how influential thinkers portrayed Vedanta philosophy as
the ultimate unifier of diverse belief systems. This project paved the way
for the work of later Hindu reformers, such as Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan,
and Gandhi, whose teachings promoted the notion that all world religions
belong to a single spiritual unity. In his study, Nicholson also critiques
the way in which Eurocentric concepts?like monism and dualism, idealism and
realism, theism and atheism, and orthodoxy and heterodoxy?have come to
dominate modern discourses on Indian philosophy.


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From hr at ivs.edu  Wed Dec 18 01:00:33 2013
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 13 17:00:33 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <CAFZJJzHjueQptgnQMy+Jc2c67uazBJWq1z_Oi4qmbtpwC_kJxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56F133D0-97AC-492C-B704-14431A45761A@ivs.edu>

Thank you Andrew, and congratulations on your prize-winning publication. Forgive me for commenting based on the blurb, but I assume it to be accurate.
	"?thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality." 
	This is certainly true in the case of some thinkers, and these thinkers did eventually emerge as powerful shapers of what one might call unified Hindu thought.
	It bears mentioning that some of the involuntarily "unified" communities, certainly strict Vaishnava groups, perceived this development with something akin to theological horror. Indeed the greatest Vaishanva Vedantists, including Ramanuja, Madhva, and Baladeva, explicitly sought to refute the notion that all paths lead as rivers into the ocean of Brahman, unless by that one meant Krishna as param brahman (Gita 10.12)
	Thus for centuries there has been strong tension, and theological battles, between on the one hand the unifying Hindu view, including what Halbfass called the "Neo-Hindu" thought of Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan etc, with their roots in Sankara et all, and on the other hand the various Vaishnava traditions including the Sri Vaishnava followers of Ramanuja, the Dvaita-vadi followers of Madhva, and the Gaudiya Vaishnava followers of Caitanya.
	I present all this not as an argument against your thesis, which I basically accept, but rather to elicit your learned view on the matter.
	Thanks!
Howard


On Dec 17, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Andrew Nicholson <andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu> wrote:

> Dear list members,
> 
> I am pleased to announce that my first book, Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History, is now available in an affordable paperback edition from Columbia University Press.
> 
> In addition, if you enter the discount code UNINIC when ordering the paperback edition from the Columbia University Press website you will receive $8.40 off the normal list price of $28.
> 
> For more information on the contents of the book, please click on the link or see below.
> 
> http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-14986-0/
> 
> Warmest season's greetings,
> Andrew
> _____________________________________
> Andrew J. Nicholson
> Associate Professor
> SUNY Stony Brook
> Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
> Tel: (631) 632-4030  Fax: (631) 632-4098
> http://sbsuny.academia.edu/AndrewNicholson
> 
> --------
> Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History
> 
> Paper, 280 pages, 
> ISBN: 978-0-231-14987-7
> $28.00 / ?19.50 
> 
> Winner of the Book Award for Best First Book in the History of Religions, American Academy of Religion
> 
> Some postcolonial theorists argue that the idea of a single system of belief known as "Hinduism" is a creation of nineteenth-century British imperialists. Andrew J. Nicholson introduces another perspective: although a unified Hindu identity is not as ancient as some Hindus claim, it has its roots in innovations within South Asian philosophy from the fourteenth to seventeenth centuries. During this time, thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality.
> 
> Drawing on the writings of philosophers from late medieval and early modern traditions, including Vijnanabhiksu, Madhava, and Madhusudana Sarasvati, Nicholson shows how influential thinkers portrayed Vedanta philosophy as the ultimate unifier of diverse belief systems. This project paved the way for the work of later Hindu reformers, such as Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan, and Gandhi, whose teachings promoted the notion that all world religions belong to a single spiritual unity. In his study, Nicholson also critiques the way in which Eurocentric concepts?like monism and dualism, idealism and realism, theism and atheism, and orthodoxy and heterodoxy?have come to dominate modern discourses on Indian philosophy.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info



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From uskokov at uchicago.edu  Wed Dec 18 02:33:38 2013
From: uskokov at uchicago.edu (Aleksandar Uskokov)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 13 20:33:38 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <56F133D0-97AC-492C-B704-14431A45761A@ivs.edu>
Message-ID: <CA+32jrHw2MuXxMdo6fhP1b=kTRfK+uY4PLYFnFx_Ry+moy4KVA@mail.gmail.com>

It is, nevetheless, interesting to see Vaishnavas writing at roughly the
same time as Vijnanabhiksu, Sanatana Goswami for instance, in his Brhad
Bhagavatamrta, presenting a path in which those who we would classify as
Hindus today find a place in the progression towards Krishna, and others --
Buddhists, Jains, what to say of Muslims -- do not. Do we see such schemes
before the 16th century? If not, the question is, what has changed to allow
for such a paradigm.

Kind regards
Aleksandar
On Dec 17, 2013 7:00 PM, "Howard Resnick" <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:

> Thank you Andrew, and congratulations on your prize-winning publication.
> Forgive me for commenting based on the blurb, but I assume it to be
> accurate.
> "?thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along
> with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single
> system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate
> and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to
> the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality."
> This is certainly true in the case of some thinkers, and these thinkers
> did eventually emerge as powerful shapers of what one might call unified
> Hindu thought.
> It bears mentioning that some of the involuntarily "unified" communities,
> certainly strict Vaishnava groups, perceived this development with
> something akin to theological horror. Indeed the greatest Vaishanva
> Vedantists, including Ramanuja, Madhva, and Baladeva, explicitly sought to
> refute the notion that all paths lead as rivers into the ocean of Brahman,
> unless by that one meant Krishna as param brahman (Gita 10.12)
> Thus for centuries there has been strong tension, and theological battles,
> between on the one hand the unifying Hindu view, including what Halbfass
> called the "Neo-Hindu" thought of Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan etc, with
> their roots in Sankara et all, and on the other hand the various Vaishnava
> traditions including the Sri Vaishnava followers of Ramanuja, the
> Dvaita-vadi followers of Madhva, and the Gaudiya Vaishnava followers of
> Caitanya.
> I present all this not as an argument against your thesis, which I
> basically accept, but rather to elicit your learned view on the matter.
> Thanks!
> Howard
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Andrew Nicholson <
> andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu> wrote:
>
> Dear list members,
>
> I am pleased to announce that my first book, *Unifying Hinduism:
> Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History, *is now available
> in an affordable paperback edition from Columbia University Press.
>
> In addition, if you enter the discount code UNINIC when ordering the
> paperback edition from the Columbia University Press website you will
> receive $8.40 off the normal list price of $28.
>
> For more information on the contents of the book, please click on the link
> or see below.
>
> http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-14986-0/
>
> Warmest season's greetings,
> Andrew
> _____________________________________
> Andrew J. Nicholson
> Associate Professor
> SUNY Stony Brook
> Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
> Tel: (631) 632-4030  Fax: (631) 632-4098
> http://sbsuny.academia.edu/AndrewNicholson
>
> --------
> Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History
> Paper, 280 pages,
> ISBN: 978-0-231-14987-7
> $28.00 / ?19.50
>
> *Winner of the Book Award for Best First Book in the History of Religions,
> American Academy of Religion*
>
> Some postcolonial theorists argue that the idea of a single system of
> belief known as "Hinduism" is a creation of nineteenth-century British
> imperialists. Andrew J. Nicholson introduces another perspective: although
> a unified Hindu identity is not as ancient as some Hindus claim, it has its
> roots in innovations within South Asian philosophy from the fourteenth to
> seventeenth centuries. During this time, thinkers treated the philosophies
> of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva,
> and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead
> of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned
> them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate
> reality.
>
> Drawing on the writings of philosophers from late medieval and early
> modern traditions, including Vijnanabhiksu, Madhava, and Madhusudana
> Sarasvati, Nicholson shows how influential thinkers portrayed Vedanta
> philosophy as the ultimate unifier of diverse belief systems. This project
> paved the way for the work of later Hindu reformers, such as Vivekananda,
> Radhakrishnan, and Gandhi, whose teachings promoted the notion that all
> world religions belong to a single spiritual unity. In his study, Nicholson
> also critiques the way in which Eurocentric concepts?like monism and
> dualism, idealism and realism, theism and atheism, and orthodoxy and
> heterodoxy?have come to dominate modern discourses on Indian philosophy.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From hr at ivs.edu  Wed Dec 18 02:57:27 2013
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 13 18:57:27 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <CA+32jrHw2MuXxMdo6fhP1b=kTRfK+uY4PLYFnFx_Ry+moy4KVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <473A2099-96F8-4AB6-B43B-18488A192975@ivs.edu>

Thanks for this great question. Of course one might say that the Gita itself is famously syncretistic, though certainly not metaphysically relativistic. We do have five occurences of 'brahma-nirvana', along with frequent, almost proto-Sankara references to Brahman, such as 13.31: "When one perceives that the state of separate beings stands as one, just from that one then advances to the brahman expansion." (my translation) 
All the best,	
Howard

On Dec 17, 2013, at 6:33 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov <uskokov at uchicago.edu> wrote:

> It is, nevetheless, interesting to see Vaishnavas writing at roughly the same time as Vijnanabhiksu, Sanatana Goswami for instance, in his Brhad Bhagavatamrta, presenting a path in which those who we would classify as Hindus today find a place in the progression towards Krishna, and others -- Buddhists, Jains, what to say of Muslims -- do not. Do we see such schemes before the 16th century? If not, the question is, what has changed to allow for such a paradigm.
> 
> Kind regards
> Aleksandar
> 
> On Dec 17, 2013 7:00 PM, "Howard Resnick" <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
> Thank you Andrew, and congratulations on your prize-winning publication. Forgive me for commenting based on the blurb, but I assume it to be accurate.
> 	"?thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality." 
> 	This is certainly true in the case of some thinkers, and these thinkers did eventually emerge as powerful shapers of what one might call unified Hindu thought.
> 	It bears mentioning that some of the involuntarily "unified" communities, certainly strict Vaishnava groups, perceived this development with something akin to theological horror. Indeed the greatest Vaishanva Vedantists, including Ramanuja, Madhva, and Baladeva, explicitly sought to refute the notion that all paths lead as rivers into the ocean of Brahman, unless by that one meant Krishna as param brahman (Gita 10.12)
> 	Thus for centuries there has been strong tension, and theological battles, between on the one hand the unifying Hindu view, including what Halbfass called the "Neo-Hindu" thought of Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan etc, with their roots in Sankara et all, and on the other hand the various Vaishnava traditions including the Sri Vaishnava followers of Ramanuja, the Dvaita-vadi followers of Madhva, and the Gaudiya Vaishnava followers of Caitanya.
> 	I present all this not as an argument against your thesis, which I basically accept, but rather to elicit your learned view on the matter.
> 	Thanks!
> Howard
> 
> 
> On Dec 17, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Andrew Nicholson <andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Dear list members,
>> 
>> I am pleased to announce that my first book, Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History, is now available in an affordable paperback edition from Columbia University Press.
>> 
>> In addition, if you enter the discount code UNINIC when ordering the paperback edition from the Columbia University Press website you will receive $8.40 off the normal list price of $28.
>> 
>> For more information on the contents of the book, please click on the link or see below.
>> 
>> http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-14986-0/
>> 
>> Warmest season's greetings,
>> Andrew
>> _____________________________________
>> Andrew J. Nicholson
>> Associate Professor
>> SUNY Stony Brook
>> Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
>> Tel: (631) 632-4030  Fax: (631) 632-4098
>> http://sbsuny.academia.edu/AndrewNicholson
>> 
>> --------
>> Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History
>> 
>> Paper, 280 pages, 
>> ISBN: 978-0-231-14987-7
>> $28.00 / ?19.50 
>> 
>> Winner of the Book Award for Best First Book in the History of Religions, American Academy of Religion
>> 
>> Some postcolonial theorists argue that the idea of a single system of belief known as "Hinduism" is a creation of nineteenth-century British imperialists. Andrew J. Nicholson introduces another perspective: although a unified Hindu identity is not as ancient as some Hindus claim, it has its roots in innovations within South Asian philosophy from the fourteenth to seventeenth centuries. During this time, thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality.
>> 
>> Drawing on the writings of philosophers from late medieval and early modern traditions, including Vijnanabhiksu, Madhava, and Madhusudana Sarasvati, Nicholson shows how influential thinkers portrayed Vedanta philosophy as the ultimate unifier of diverse belief systems. This project paved the way  for the work of later Hindu reformers, such as Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan, and Gandhi, whose teachings promoted the notion that all world religions belong to a single spiritual unity. In his study, Nicholson also critiques the way in which Eurocentric concepts?like monism and dualism, idealism and realism, theism and atheism, and orthodoxy and heterodoxy?have come to dominate modern discourses on Indian philosophy.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info



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From hr at ivs.edu  Wed Dec 18 03:22:02 2013
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 13 19:22:02 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <CA+32jrHw2MuXxMdo6fhP1b=kTRfK+uY4PLYFnFx_Ry+moy4KVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B55A178B-F029-4279-9790-BE35A8F28504@ivs.edu>

I put in a comma below after the second 'one' to avoid confusion:

Thanks for this great question. Of course one might say that the Gita itself is famously syncretistic, though certainly not metaphysically relativistic. We do have five occurences of 'brahma-nirvana', along with frequent, almost proto-Sankara references to Brahman, such as 13.31: "When one perceives that the state of separate beings stands as one, just from that, one then advances to the brahman expansion." (my translation) 
All the best,	
Howard

On Dec 17, 2013, at 6:33 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov <uskokov at uchicago.edu> wrote:

> It is, nevetheless, interesting to see Vaishnavas writing at roughly the same time as Vijnanabhiksu, Sanatana Goswami for instance, in his Brhad Bhagavatamrta, presenting a path in which those who we would classify as Hindus today find a place in the progression towards Krishna, and others -- Buddhists, Jains, what to say of Muslims -- do not. Do we see such schemes before the 16th century? If not, the question is, what has changed to allow for such a paradigm.
> 
> Kind regards
> Aleksandar
> 
> On Dec 17, 2013 7:00 PM, "Howard Resnick" <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
> Thank you Andrew, and congratulations on your prize-winning publication. Forgive me for commenting based on the blurb, but I assume it to be accurate.
> 	"?thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality." 
> 	This is certainly true in the case of some thinkers, and these thinkers did eventually emerge as powerful shapers of what one might call unified Hindu thought.
> 	It bears mentioning that some of the involuntarily "unified" communities, certainly strict Vaishnava groups, perceived this development with something akin to theological horror. Indeed the greatest Vaishanva Vedantists, including Ramanuja, Madhva, and Baladeva, explicitly sought to refute the notion that all paths lead as rivers into the ocean of Brahman, unless by that one meant Krishna as param brahman (Gita 10.12)
> 	Thus for centuries there has been strong tension, and theological battles, between on the one hand the unifying Hindu view, including what Halbfass called the "Neo-Hindu" thought of Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan etc, with their roots in Sankara et all, and on the other hand the various Vaishnava traditions including the Sri Vaishnava followers of Ramanuja, the Dvaita-vadi followers of Madhva, and the Gaudiya Vaishnava followers of Caitanya.
> 	I present all this not as an argument against your thesis, which I basically accept, but rather to elicit your learned view on the matter.
> 	Thanks!
> Howard
> 
> 
> On Dec 17, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Andrew Nicholson <andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Dear list members,
>> 
>> I am pleased to announce that my first book, Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History, is now available in an affordable paperback edition from Columbia University Press.
>> 
>> In addition, if you enter the discount code UNINIC when ordering the paperback edition from the Columbia University Press website you will receive $8.40 off the normal list price of $28.
>> 
>> For more information on the contents of the book, please click on the link or see below.
>> 
>> http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-14986-0/
>> 
>> Warmest season's greetings,
>> Andrew
>> _____________________________________
>> Andrew J. Nicholson
>> Associate Professor
>> SUNY Stony Brook
>> Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
>> Tel: (631) 632-4030  Fax: (631) 632-4098
>> http://sbsuny.academia.edu/AndrewNicholson
>> 
>> --------
>> Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History
>> 
>> Paper, 280 pages, 
>> ISBN: 978-0-231-14987-7
>> $28.00 / ?19.50 
>> 
>> Winner of the Book Award for Best First Book in the History of Religions, American Academy of Religion
>> 
>> Some postcolonial theorists argue that the idea of a single system of belief known as "Hinduism" is a creation of nineteenth-century British imperialists. Andrew J. Nicholson introduces another perspective: although a unified Hindu identity is not as ancient as some Hindus claim, it has its roots in innovations within South Asian philosophy from the fourteenth to seventeenth centuries. During this time, thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality.
>> 
>> Drawing on the writings of philosophers from late medieval and early modern traditions, including Vijnanabhiksu, Madhava, and Madhusudana Sarasvati, Nicholson shows how influential thinkers portrayed Vedanta philosophy as the ultimate unifier of diverse belief systems. This project paved the way  for the work of later Hindu reformers, such as Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan, and Gandhi, whose teachings promoted the notion that all world religions belong to a single spiritual unity. In his study, Nicholson also critiques the way in which Eurocentric concepts?like monism and dualism, idealism and realism, theism and atheism, and orthodoxy and heterodoxy?have come to dominate modern discourses on Indian philosophy.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info



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From uskokov at uchicago.edu  Wed Dec 18 03:25:03 2013
From: uskokov at uchicago.edu (Aleksandar Uskokov)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 13 21:25:03 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <473A2099-96F8-4AB6-B43B-18488A192975@ivs.edu>
Message-ID: <CA+32jrGeUv=CPGnCFFCFVZ8g3Rn=WgXsU2NuzEtrKYX-SgD6SQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, but Gita's syncretism is almost fully inclusive, it appears to me. and
vague--no one is openly denied place, except for the "asuras". With
Sanatana and Jiva Goswamis, we see a worldview of progress towards Krishna
in which advaitins fit, though not high on the ladder, but not Buddhist,
Jains etc. This seems similar to what Vijnanabhiksu and Madhusudana were
doing, with the order reversed. Brihad-Bhagavatamrita does read like a
project of "Unifying Hinduism" if we have in view the milieu in which it
was written -- Jains were not gone, Muslims were the rulers, sometimes even
temple patrons, but they are not "on the way to Krishna". There is, in
other words, an attempt of delimiting the borders of the orthodox.

Kind regards
Aleksandar


On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:

> Thanks for this great question. Of course one might say that the Gita
> itself is famously syncretistic, though certainly not metaphysically
> relativistic. We do have five occurences of 'brahma-nirvana', along with
> frequent, almost proto-Sankara references to Brahman, such as 13.31: "When
> one perceives that the state of separate beings stands as one, just from
> that one then advances to the brahman expansion." (my translation)
> All the best,
> Howard
>
> On Dec 17, 2013, at 6:33 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov <uskokov at uchicago.edu>
> wrote:
>
> It is, nevetheless, interesting to see Vaishnavas writing at roughly the
> same time as Vijnanabhiksu, Sanatana Goswami for instance, in his Brhad
> Bhagavatamrta, presenting a path in which those who we would classify as
> Hindus today find a place in the progression towards Krishna, and others --
> Buddhists, Jains, what to say of Muslims -- do not. Do we see such schemes
> before the 16th century? If not, the question is, what has changed to allow
> for such a paradigm.
>
> Kind regards
> Aleksandar
> On Dec 17, 2013 7:00 PM, "Howard Resnick" <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Andrew, and congratulations on your prize-winning publication.
>> Forgive me for commenting based on the blurb, but I assume it to be
>> accurate.
>> "?thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along
>> with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single
>> system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate
>> and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to
>> the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality."
>>  This is certainly true in the case of some thinkers, and these thinkers
>> did eventually emerge as powerful shapers of what one might call unified
>> Hindu thought.
>>  It bears mentioning that some of the involuntarily "unified"
>> communities, certainly strict Vaishnava groups, perceived this development
>> with something akin to theological horror. Indeed the greatest Vaishanva
>> Vedantists, including Ramanuja, Madhva, and Baladeva, explicitly sought to
>> refute the notion that all paths lead as rivers into the ocean of Brahman,
>> unless by that one meant Krishna as param brahman (Gita 10.12)
>>  Thus for centuries there has been strong tension, and theological
>> battles, between on the one hand the unifying Hindu view, including what
>> Halbfass called the "Neo-Hindu" thought of Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan etc,
>> with their roots in Sankara et all, and on the other hand the various
>> Vaishnava traditions including the Sri Vaishnava followers of Ramanuja, the
>> Dvaita-vadi followers of Madhva, and the Gaudiya Vaishnava followers of
>> Caitanya.
>>  I present all this not as an argument against your thesis, which I
>> basically accept, but rather to elicit your learned view on the matter.
>> Thanks!
>> Howard
>>
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Andrew Nicholson <
>> andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Dear list members,
>>
>> I am pleased to announce that my first book, *Unifying Hinduism:
>> Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History, *is now
>> available in an affordable paperback edition from Columbia University Press.
>>
>> In addition, if you enter the discount code UNINIC when ordering the
>> paperback edition from the Columbia University Press website you will
>> receive $8.40 off the normal list price of $28.
>>
>> For more information on the contents of the book, please click on the
>> link or see below.
>>
>> http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-14986-0/
>>
>> Warmest season's greetings,
>> Andrew
>> _____________________________________
>> Andrew J. Nicholson
>> Associate Professor
>> SUNY Stony Brook
>> Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
>> Tel: (631) 632-4030  Fax: (631) 632-4098
>> http://sbsuny.academia.edu/AndrewNicholson
>>
>> --------
>> Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History
>> Paper, 280 pages,
>> ISBN: 978-0-231-14987-7
>> $28.00 / ?19.50
>>
>> *Winner of the Book Award for Best First Book in the History of
>> Religions, American Academy of Religion*
>>
>> Some postcolonial theorists argue that the idea of a single system of
>> belief known as "Hinduism" is a creation of nineteenth-century British
>> imperialists. Andrew J. Nicholson introduces another perspective: although
>> a unified Hindu identity is not as ancient as some Hindus claim, it has its
>> roots in innovations within South Asian philosophy from the fourteenth to
>> seventeenth centuries. During this time, thinkers treated the philosophies
>> of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva,
>> and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead
>> of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned
>> them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate
>> reality.
>>
>> Drawing on the writings of philosophers from late medieval and early
>> modern traditions, including Vijnanabhiksu, Madhava, and Madhusudana
>> Sarasvati, Nicholson shows how influential thinkers portrayed Vedanta
>> philosophy as the ultimate unifier of diverse belief systems. This project
>> paved the way for the work of later Hindu reformers, such as Vivekananda,
>> Radhakrishnan, and Gandhi, whose teachings promoted the notion that all
>> world religions belong to a single spiritual unity. In his study, Nicholson
>> also critiques the way in which Eurocentric concepts?like monism and
>> dualism, idealism and realism, theism and atheism, and orthodoxy and
>> heterodoxy?have come to dominate modern discourses on Indian philosophy.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>
>
>


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From uskokov at uchicago.edu  Wed Dec 18 03:44:43 2013
From: uskokov at uchicago.edu (Aleksandar Uskokov)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 13 21:44:43 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <CA+32jrGeUv=CPGnCFFCFVZ8g3Rn=WgXsU2NuzEtrKYX-SgD6SQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+32jrGP_UgzwdAcw2qR2Z6+5pRdBg2hW0+MV7-AwAnjTNWRmQ@mail.gmail.com>

Though, Vishnu Purana comes to mind, in which, as I recall, the Buddha is
presented as missleading people against the Veda, and Jains don't fare much
better either.
On Dec 17, 2013 9:25 PM, "Aleksandar Uskokov" <uskokov at uchicago.edu> wrote:

> Yes, but Gita's syncretism is almost fully inclusive, it appears to me.
> and vague--no one is openly denied place, except for the "asuras". With
> Sanatana and Jiva Goswamis, we see a worldview of progress towards Krishna
> in which advaitins fit, though not high on the ladder, but not Buddhist,
> Jains etc. This seems similar to what Vijnanabhiksu and Madhusudana were
> doing, with the order reversed. Brihad-Bhagavatamrita does read like a
> project of "Unifying Hinduism" if we have in view the milieu in which it
> was written -- Jains were not gone, Muslims were the rulers, sometimes even
> temple patrons, but they are not "on the way to Krishna". There is, in
> other words, an attempt of delimiting the borders of the orthodox.
>
> Kind regards
> Aleksandar
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for this great question. Of course one might say that the Gita
>> itself is famously syncretistic, though certainly not metaphysically
>> relativistic. We do have five occurences of 'brahma-nirvana', along with
>> frequent, almost proto-Sankara references to Brahman, such as 13.31: "When
>> one perceives that the state of separate beings stands as one, just from
>> that one then advances to the brahman expansion." (my translation)
>> All the best,
>> Howard
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 6:33 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov <uskokov at uchicago.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> It is, nevetheless, interesting to see Vaishnavas writing at roughly the
>> same time as Vijnanabhiksu, Sanatana Goswami for instance, in his Brhad
>> Bhagavatamrta, presenting a path in which those who we would classify as
>> Hindus today find a place in the progression towards Krishna, and others --
>> Buddhists, Jains, what to say of Muslims -- do not. Do we see such schemes
>> before the 16th century? If not, the question is, what has changed to allow
>> for such a paradigm.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Aleksandar
>> On Dec 17, 2013 7:00 PM, "Howard Resnick" <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Andrew, and congratulations on your prize-winning publication.
>>> Forgive me for commenting based on the blurb, but I assume it to be
>>> accurate.
>>> "?thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga,
>>> along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a
>>> single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as
>>> separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers
>>> leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality."
>>>  This is certainly true in the case of some thinkers, and these
>>> thinkers did eventually emerge as powerful shapers of what one might call
>>> unified Hindu thought.
>>>  It bears mentioning that some of the involuntarily "unified"
>>> communities, certainly strict Vaishnava groups, perceived this development
>>> with something akin to theological horror. Indeed the greatest Vaishanva
>>> Vedantists, including Ramanuja, Madhva, and Baladeva, explicitly sought to
>>> refute the notion that all paths lead as rivers into the ocean of Brahman,
>>> unless by that one meant Krishna as param brahman (Gita 10.12)
>>>  Thus for centuries there has been strong tension, and theological
>>> battles, between on the one hand the unifying Hindu view, including what
>>> Halbfass called the "Neo-Hindu" thought of Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan etc,
>>> with their roots in Sankara et all, and on the other hand the various
>>> Vaishnava traditions including the Sri Vaishnava followers of Ramanuja, the
>>> Dvaita-vadi followers of Madhva, and the Gaudiya Vaishnava followers of
>>> Caitanya.
>>>  I present all this not as an argument against your thesis, which I
>>> basically accept, but rather to elicit your learned view on the matter.
>>> Thanks!
>>> Howard
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Andrew Nicholson <
>>> andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Dear list members,
>>>
>>> I am pleased to announce that my first book, *Unifying Hinduism:
>>> Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History, *is now
>>> available in an affordable paperback edition from Columbia University Press.
>>>
>>> In addition, if you enter the discount code UNINIC when ordering the
>>> paperback edition from the Columbia University Press website you will
>>> receive $8.40 off the normal list price of $28.
>>>
>>> For more information on the contents of the book, please click on the
>>> link or see below.
>>>
>>> http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-14986-0/
>>>
>>> Warmest season's greetings,
>>> Andrew
>>> _____________________________________
>>> Andrew J. Nicholson
>>> Associate Professor
>>> SUNY Stony Brook
>>> Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
>>> Tel: (631) 632-4030  Fax: (631) 632-4098
>>> http://sbsuny.academia.edu/AndrewNicholson
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History
>>> Paper, 280 pages,
>>> ISBN: 978-0-231-14987-7
>>> $28.00 / ?19.50
>>>
>>> *Winner of the Book Award for Best First Book in the History of
>>> Religions, American Academy of Religion*
>>>
>>> Some postcolonial theorists argue that the idea of a single system of
>>> belief known as "Hinduism" is a creation of nineteenth-century British
>>> imperialists. Andrew J. Nicholson introduces another perspective: although
>>> a unified Hindu identity is not as ancient as some Hindus claim, it has its
>>> roots in innovations within South Asian philosophy from the fourteenth to
>>> seventeenth centuries. During this time, thinkers treated the philosophies
>>> of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva,
>>> and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead
>>> of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned
>>> them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate
>>> reality.
>>>
>>> Drawing on the writings of philosophers from late medieval and early
>>> modern traditions, including Vijnanabhiksu, Madhava, and Madhusudana
>>> Sarasvati, Nicholson shows how influential thinkers portrayed Vedanta
>>> philosophy as the ultimate unifier of diverse belief systems. This project
>>> paved the way for the work of later Hindu reformers, such as Vivekananda,
>>> Radhakrishnan, and Gandhi, whose teachings promoted the notion that all
>>> world religions belong to a single spiritual unity. In his study, Nicholson
>>> also critiques the way in which Eurocentric concepts?like monism and
>>> dualism, idealism and realism, theism and atheism, and orthodoxy and
>>> heterodoxy?have come to dominate modern discourses on Indian philosophy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>>
>>
>>
>


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From hr at ivs.edu  Wed Dec 18 03:53:10 2013
From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 13 19:53:10 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <CA+32jrGeUv=CPGnCFFCFVZ8g3Rn=WgXsU2NuzEtrKYX-SgD6SQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F266B333-2900-4B7C-A5F5-16124FB67F4B@ivs.edu>

The Gita's full inclusivism, as you describe it, provides a historical alternative to later Hindu notions of unity under the banner of brahman.
Best,
Howard

On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:25 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov <uskokov at uchicago.edu> wrote:

> Yes, but Gita's syncretism is almost fully inclusive, it appears to me. and vague--no one is openly denied place, except for the "asuras". With Sanatana and Jiva Goswamis, we see a worldview of progress towards Krishna in which advaitins fit, though not high on the ladder, but not Buddhist, Jains etc. This seems similar to what Vijnanabhiksu and Madhusudana were doing, with the order reversed. Brihad-Bhagavatamrita does read like a project of "Unifying Hinduism" if we have in view the milieu in which it was written -- Jains were not gone, Muslims were the rulers, sometimes even temple patrons, but they are not "on the way to Krishna". There is, in other words, an attempt of delimiting the borders of the orthodox. 
> 
> Kind regards
> Aleksandar 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
> Thanks for this great question. Of course one might say that the Gita itself is famously syncretistic, though certainly not metaphysically relativistic. We do have five occurences of 'brahma-nirvana', along with frequent, almost proto-Sankara references to Brahman, such as 13.31: "When one perceives that the state of separate beings stands as one, just from that one then advances to the brahman expansion." (my translation) 
> All the best,	
> Howard
> 
> On Dec 17, 2013, at 6:33 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov <uskokov at uchicago.edu> wrote:
> 
>> It is, nevetheless, interesting to see Vaishnavas writing at roughly the same time as Vijnanabhiksu, Sanatana Goswami for instance, in his Brhad Bhagavatamrta, presenting a path in which those who we would classify as Hindus today find a place in the progression towards Krishna, and others -- Buddhists, Jains, what to say of Muslims -- do not. Do we see such schemes before the 16th century? If not, the question is, what has changed to allow for such a paradigm.
>> 
>> Kind regards
>> Aleksandar
>> 
>> On Dec 17, 2013 7:00 PM, "Howard Resnick" <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>> Thank you Andrew, and congratulations on your prize-winning publication. Forgive me for commenting based on the blurb, but I assume it to be accurate.
>> 	"?thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality." 
>> 	This is certainly true in the case of some thinkers, and these thinkers did eventually emerge as powerful shapers of what one might call unified Hindu thought.
>> 	It bears mentioning that some of the involuntarily "unified" communities, certainly strict Vaishnava groups, perceived this development with something akin to theological horror. Indeed the greatest Vaishanva Vedantists, including Ramanuja, Madhva, and Baladeva, explicitly sought to refute the notion that all paths lead as rivers into the ocean of Brahman, unless by that one meant Krishna as param brahman (Gita 10.12)
>> 	Thus for centuries there has been strong tension, and theological battles, between on the one hand the unifying Hindu view, including what Halbfass called the "Neo-Hindu" thought of Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan etc, with their roots in Sankara et all, and on the other hand the various Vaishnava traditions including the Sri Vaishnava followers of Ramanuja, the Dvaita-vadi followers of Madhva, and the Gaudiya Vaishnava followers of Caitanya.
>> 	I present all this not as an argument against your thesis, which I basically accept, but rather to elicit your learned view on the matter.
>> 	Thanks!
>> Howard
>> 
>> 
>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Andrew Nicholson <andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear list members,
>>> 
>>> I am pleased to announce that my first book, Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History, is now available in an affordable paperback edition from Columbia University Press.
>>> 
>>> In addition, if you enter the discount code UNINIC when ordering the paperback edition from the Columbia University Press website you will receive $8.40 off the normal list price of $28.
>>> 
>>> For more information on the contents of the book, please click on the link or see below.
>>> 
>>> http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-14986-0/
>>> 
>>> Warmest season's greetings,
>>> Andrew
>>> _____________________________________
>>> Andrew J. Nicholson
>>> Associate Professor
>>> SUNY Stony Brook
>>> Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
>>> Tel: (631) 632-4030  Fax: (631) 632-4098
>>> http://sbsuny.academia.edu/AndrewNicholson
>>> 
>>> --------
>>> Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History
>>> 
>>> Paper, 280 pages, 
>>> ISBN: 978-0-231-14987-7
>>> $28.00 / ?19.50 
>>> 
>>> Winner of the Book Award for Best First Book in the History of Religions, American Academy of Religion
>>> 
>>> Some postcolonial theorists argue that the idea of a single system of belief known as "Hinduism" is a creation of nineteenth-century British imperialists. Andrew J. Nicholson introduces another perspective: although a unified Hindu identity is not as ancient as some Hindus claim, it has its roots in innovations within South Asian philosophy from the fourteenth to seventeenth centuries. During this time, thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality.
>>> 
>>> Drawing on the writings of philosophers from late medieval and early modern traditions, including Vijnanabhiksu, Madhava, and Madhusudana Sarasvati, Nicholson shows how influential thinkers portrayed Vedanta philosophy as the ultimate unifier of diverse belief systems. This project paved the way for the work of later Hindu reformers, such as Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan, and Gandhi, whose teachings promoted the notion that all world religions belong to a single spiritual unity. In his study, Nicholson also critiques the way in which Eurocentric concepts?like monism and dualism, idealism and realism, theism and atheism, and orthodoxy and heterodoxy?have come to dominate modern discourses on Indian philosophy.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
> 
> 



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From selwyn at ntlworld.com  Wed Dec 18 06:19:10 2013
From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 13 06:19:10 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Digital Library of India
In-Reply-To: <CAFZJJzHjueQptgnQMy+Jc2c67uazBJWq1z_Oi4qmbtpwC_kJxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52B13E5E.50802@ntlworld.com>

Does anyone know how to download pdfs from the Digital Library of India 
on MacOs Mavericks ?

If I click on DLI-downloader-5.1-jar-with-dependencies, the GUI comes 
up. But pasting in a barcode has no effect.

Java -version in Terminal gives:

java version "1.7.0_45"
Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.7.0_45-b18)
Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 24.45-b08, mixed mode)

Lance Cousins





From andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu  Wed Dec 18 16:03:01 2013
From: andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu (Andrew Nicholson)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 13 10:03:01 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <F266B333-2900-4B7C-A5F5-16124FB67F4B@ivs.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFZJJzGtcue=2VOsHhAwuveb2y4=M3odEU0r0Gj0MwvsV8J9xA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Aleksandar and Howard,

Thanks for your interest in the topic of my book.

In the Puranas there is certainly plenty of vilification of certain
groups--Jainas, Bauddhas, Kapalikas, and Pasupatas among them. But in
first-millenium Puranas there is not yet any clear binary
classification of two groups of sects along astika/nastika or
Vedic/anti-Vedic lines. It seems the first clear expression of this
binary occurs in Krsnamisra's comedic play Prabodhacandrodaya (late
11th c.). By the 14th century, this way of classifying groups has
become the dominant discourse.

In the concluding chapter I offer some possibilities for how and why
this shift occurred. But no spoilers here--you'll have to buy the
book!

Best,
Andrew

_____________________________________
Andrew J. Nicholson
Associate Professor
SUNY Stony Brook
Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
Tel: (631) 632-4030  Fax: (631) 632-4098
http://sbsuny.academia.edu/AndrewNicholson


On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 9:53 PM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>
> The Gita's full inclusivism, as you describe it, provides a historical alternative to later Hindu notions of unity under the banner of brahman.
> Best,
> Howard
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:25 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov <uskokov at uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> Yes, but Gita's syncretism is almost fully inclusive, it appears to me. and vague--no one is openly denied place, except for the "asuras". With Sanatana and Jiva Goswamis, we see a worldview of progress towards Krishna in which advaitins fit, though not high on the ladder, but not Buddhist, Jains etc. This seems similar to what Vijnanabhiksu and Madhusudana were doing, with the order reversed. Brihad-Bhagavatamrita does read like a project of "Unifying Hinduism" if we have in view the milieu in which it was written -- Jains were not gone, Muslims were the rulers, sometimes even temple patrons, but they are not "on the way to Krishna". There is, in other words, an attempt of delimiting the borders of the orthodox.
>
> Kind regards
> Aleksandar
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for this great question. Of course one might say that the Gita itself is famously syncretistic, though certainly not metaphysically relativistic. We do have five occurences of 'brahma-nirvana', along with frequent, almost proto-Sankara references to Brahman, such as 13.31: "When one perceives that the state of separate beings stands as one, just from that one then advances to the brahman expansion." (my translation)
>> All the best,
>> Howard
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 6:33 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov <uskokov at uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>
>> It is, nevetheless, interesting to see Vaishnavas writing at roughly the same time as Vijnanabhiksu, Sanatana Goswami for instance, in his Brhad Bhagavatamrta, presenting a path in which those who we would classify as Hindus today find a place in the progression towards Krishna, and others -- Buddhists, Jains, what to say of Muslims -- do not. Do we see such schemes before the 16th century? If not, the question is, what has changed to allow for such a paradigm.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Aleksandar
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2013 7:00 PM, "Howard Resnick" <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you Andrew, and congratulations on your prize-winning publication. Forgive me for commenting based on the blurb, but I assume it to be accurate.
>>> "?thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality."
>>> This is certainly true in the case of some thinkers, and these thinkers did eventually emerge as powerful shapers of what one might call unified Hindu thought.
>>> It bears mentioning that some of the involuntarily "unified" communities, certainly strict Vaishnava groups, perceived this development with something akin to theological horror. Indeed the greatest Vaishanva Vedantists, including Ramanuja, Madhva, and Baladeva, explicitly sought to refute the notion that all paths lead as rivers into the ocean of Brahman, unless by that one meant Krishna as param brahman (Gita 10.12)
>>> Thus for centuries there has been strong tension, and theological battles, between on the one hand the unifying Hindu view, including what Halbfass called the "Neo-Hindu" thought of Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan etc, with their roots in Sankara et all, and on the other hand the various Vaishnava traditions including the Sri Vaishnava followers of Ramanuja, the Dvaita-vadi followers of Madhva, and the Gaudiya Vaishnava followers of Caitanya.
>>> I present all this not as an argument against your thesis, which I basically accept, but rather to elicit your learned view on the matter.
>>> Thanks!
>>> Howard
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Andrew Nicholson <andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear list members,
>>>
>>> I am pleased to announce that my first book, Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History, is now available in an affordable paperback edition from Columbia University Press.
>>>
>>> In addition, if you enter the discount code UNINIC when ordering the paperback edition from the Columbia University Press website you will receive $8.40 off the normal list price of $28.
>>>
>>> For more information on the contents of the book, please click on the link or see below.
>>>
>>> http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-14986-0/
>>>
>>> Warmest season's greetings,
>>> Andrew
>>> _____________________________________
>>> Andrew J. Nicholson
>>> Associate Professor
>>> SUNY Stony Brook
>>> Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
>>> Tel: (631) 632-4030  Fax: (631) 632-4098
>>> http://sbsuny.academia.edu/AndrewNicholson
>>>
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History
>>>
>>> Paper, 280 pages,
>>> ISBN: 978-0-231-14987-7
>>> $28.00 / ?19.50
>>>
>>> Winner of the Book Award for Best First Book in the History of Religions, American Academy of Religion
>>>
>>> Some postcolonial theorists argue that the idea of a single system of belief known as "Hinduism" is a creation of nineteenth-century British imperialists. Andrew J. Nicholson introduces another perspective: although a unified Hindu identity is not as ancient as some Hindus claim, it has its roots in innovations within South Asian philosophy from the fourteenth to seventeenth centuries. During this time, thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality.
>>>
>>> Drawing on the writings of philosophers from late medieval and early modern traditions, including Vijnanabhiksu, Madhava, and Madhusudana Sarasvati, Nicholson shows how influential thinkers portrayed Vedanta philosophy as the ultimate unifier of diverse belief systems. This project paved the way for the work of later Hindu reformers, such as Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan, and Gandhi, whose teachings promoted the notion that all world religions belong to a single spiritual unity. In his study, Nicholson also critiques the way in which Eurocentric concepts?like monism and dualism, idealism and realism, theism and atheism, and orthodoxy and heterodoxy?have come to dominate modern discourses on Indian philosophy.
>>>





From Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu  Wed Dec 18 16:29:43 2013
From: Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu (Walser, Joseph)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 13 16:29:43 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <CAFZJJzGtcue=2VOsHhAwuveb2y4=M3odEU0r0Gj0MwvsV8J9xA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E5F571B94D36DB4AA048E0CF279CFC700FC779C3@SSVMEXDAG01MB01.tufts.ad.tufts.edu>

Just to add to the point. The designation Nastika shows up in the Pali canon, but it means something quite different from the usage Nicholson discusses. [Excellent discussion, btw.] The Nastika is one who denies the existence of karma and the efficacy of yajna and hotara, among other things. Under this categorization, "Hindus" and Buddhists would both be astikas and the lokayatas would be nastikas.  I am thinking the borderline between Buddhism and Hinduism was drawn (incompletely) around the time of the Puranas and didn't catch on everywhere. I think it likely that the distinction was still being solidified by the time of Vijnanabhiksu.
-j
Joseph Walser

Associate Professor

Department of Religion

Tufts University

________________________________________
From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Andrew Nicholson [andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:03 AM
To: Indology List
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement

Dear Aleksandar and Howard,

Thanks for your interest in the topic of my book.

In the Puranas there is certainly plenty of vilification of certain
groups--Jainas, Bauddhas, Kapalikas, and Pasupatas among them. But in
first-millenium Puranas there is not yet any clear binary
classification of two groups of sects along astika/nastika or
Vedic/anti-Vedic lines. It seems the first clear expression of this
binary occurs in Krsnamisra's comedic play Prabodhacandrodaya (late
11th c.). By the 14th century, this way of classifying groups has
become the dominant discourse.

In the concluding chapter I offer some possibilities for how and why
this shift occurred. But no spoilers here--you'll have to buy the
book!

Best,
Andrew

_____________________________________
Andrew J. Nicholson
Associate Professor
SUNY Stony Brook
Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
Tel: (631) 632-4030  Fax: (631) 632-4098
http://sbsuny.academia.edu/AndrewNicholson


On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 9:53 PM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>
> The Gita's full inclusivism, as you describe it, provides a historical alternative to later Hindu notions of unity under the banner of brahman.
> Best,
> Howard
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:25 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov <uskokov at uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> Yes, but Gita's syncretism is almost fully inclusive, it appears to me. and vague--no one is openly denied place, except for the "asuras". With Sanatana and Jiva Goswamis, we see a worldview of progress towards Krishna in which advaitins fit, though not high on the ladder, but not Buddhist, Jains etc. This seems similar to what Vijnanabhiksu and Madhusudana were doing, with the order reversed. Brihad-Bhagavatamrita does read like a project of "Unifying Hinduism" if we have in view the milieu in which it was written -- Jains were not gone, Muslims were the rulers, sometimes even temple patrons, but they are not "on the way to Krishna". There is, in other words, an attempt of delimiting the borders of the orthodox.
>
> Kind regards
> Aleksandar
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for this great question. Of course one might say that the Gita itself is famously syncretistic, though certainly not metaphysically relativistic. We do have five occurences of 'brahma-nirvana', along with frequent, almost proto-Sankara references to Brahman, such as 13.31: "When one perceives that the state of separate beings stands as one, just from that one then advances to the brahman expansion." (my translation)
>> All the best,
>> Howard
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 6:33 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov <uskokov at uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>
>> It is, nevetheless, interesting to see Vaishnavas writing at roughly the same time as Vijnanabhiksu, Sanatana Goswami for instance, in his Brhad Bhagavatamrta, presenting a path in which those who we would classify as Hindus today find a place in the progression towards Krishna, and others -- Buddhists, Jains, what to say of Muslims -- do not. Do we see such schemes before the 16th century? If not, the question is, what has changed to allow for such a paradigm.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Aleksandar
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2013 7:00 PM, "Howard Resnick" <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you Andrew, and congratulations on your prize-winning publication. Forgive me for commenting based on the blurb, but I assume it to be accurate.
>>> "?thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality."
>>> This is certainly true in the case of some thinkers, and these thinkers did eventually emerge as powerful shapers of what one might call unified Hindu thought.
>>> It bears mentioning that some of the involuntarily "unified" communities, certainly strict Vaishnava groups, perceived this development with something akin to theological horror. Indeed the greatest Vaishanva Vedantists, including Ramanuja, Madhva, and Baladeva, explicitly sought to refute the notion that all paths lead as rivers into the ocean of Brahman, unless by that one meant Krishna as param brahman (Gita 10.12)
>>> Thus for centuries there has been strong tension, and theological battles, between on the one hand the unifying Hindu view, including what Halbfass called the "Neo-Hindu" thought of Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan etc, with their roots in Sankara et all, and on the other hand the various Vaishnava traditions including the Sri Vaishnava followers of Ramanuja, the Dvaita-vadi followers of Madhva, and the Gaudiya Vaishnava followers of Caitanya.
>>> I present all this not as an argument against your thesis, which I basically accept, but rather to elicit your learned view on the matter.
>>> Thanks!
>>> Howard
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Andrew Nicholson <andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear list members,
>>>
>>> I am pleased to announce that my first book, Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History, is now available in an affordable paperback edition from Columbia University Press.
>>>
>>> In addition, if you enter the discount code UNINIC when ordering the paperback edition from the Columbia University Press website you will receive $8.40 off the normal list price of $28.
>>>
>>> For more information on the contents of the book, please click on the link or see below.
>>>
>>> http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-14986-0/
>>>
>>> Warmest season's greetings,
>>> Andrew
>>> _____________________________________
>>> Andrew J. Nicholson
>>> Associate Professor
>>> SUNY Stony Brook
>>> Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
>>> Tel: (631) 632-4030  Fax: (631) 632-4098
>>> http://sbsuny.academia.edu/AndrewNicholson
>>>
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History
>>>
>>> Paper, 280 pages,
>>> ISBN: 978-0-231-14987-7
>>> $28.00 / ?19.50
>>>
>>> Winner of the Book Award for Best First Book in the History of Religions, American Academy of Religion
>>>
>>> Some postcolonial theorists argue that the idea of a single system of belief known as "Hinduism" is a creation of nineteenth-century British imperialists. Andrew J. Nicholson introduces another perspective: although a unified Hindu identity is not as ancient as some Hindus claim, it has its roots in innovations within South Asian philosophy from the fourteenth to seventeenth centuries. During this time, thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality.
>>>
>>> Drawing on the writings of philosophers from late medieval and early modern traditions, including Vijnanabhiksu, Madhava, and Madhusudana Sarasvati, Nicholson shows how influential thinkers portrayed Vedanta philosophy as the ultimate unifier of diverse belief systems. This project paved the way for the work of later Hindu reformers, such as Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan, and Gandhi, whose teachings promoted the notion that all world religions belong to a single spiritual unity. In his study, Nicholson also critiques the way in which Eurocentric concepts?like monism and dualism, idealism and realism, theism and atheism, and orthodoxy and heterodoxy?have come to dominate modern discourses on Indian philosophy.
>>>

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info





From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Wed Dec 18 16:39:41 2013
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 13 16:39:41 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <E5F571B94D36DB4AA048E0CF279CFC700FC779C3@SSVMEXDAG01MB01.tufts.ad.tufts.edu>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0806E12@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

But, Joseph,

"The Nastika is one who denies the existence of karma and the efficacy of yajna and hotara"
surely implies that Buddhists were n?stika-s in the sense that they did deny the efficacy of the
Vedic sacrificial cult.

As i recall, however, Kamala??la, in the TSP, does take the Buddhists and Brahmanical traditions
to be both ?stika-s in that they both affirm the doctrines of karma and mok?a.

I find it easier to make sense of these shifting uses of ?stika and n?stika if we understand the terms not
as fixed categories of types of believers, but in their literal sense as meaning "yeah-sayers" and "nay-sayers".
The precise usage may then be allowed to shift according to just what the yeah or nay are about in
any given context. Of course, a more or less fixed use did set in, but as you've all rightly suggested,
this was a relatively late development.

best,
Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago

________________________________________




From adheesh1 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 17:00:27 2013
From: adheesh1 at gmail.com (Adheesh Sathaye)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 13 18:00:27 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <CAFZJJzGtcue=2VOsHhAwuveb2y4=M3odEU0r0Gj0MwvsV8J9xA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7B245DFB-167A-48D7-9D8F-5778A649C850@gmail.com>

Dear Andrew,

I just wanted to point out, in case you haven?t considered it, R?ja?ekhara?s (early tenth C.) discussion of anv?k?ik? in his K?vyam?m??s? chapter 2, in which he states that the p?rvapak?a consists of ?Jain and Buddhist schools, as well as the Lok?yatas (arhadbhadantadar?ane lok?yata? ca)? while the uttarapak?a consists of ?S??khya and Ny?ya-Vai?e?ika (s??khya? ny?yavai?e?ikau).? 

Seems to me to be a clear binary (and hierarchical) distinction between the two groups, though admittedly it?s in the realm of logical debate (tarka) rather than belief/religion. But perhaps there is something to it?

All best wishes,
Adheesh

 ----
Adheesh Sathaye
Department of Asian Studies
University of British Columbia



On Dec 18, 2013, at 17.03, Andrew Nicholson <andrew.nicholson at STONYBROOK.EDU> wrote:

> Dear Aleksandar and Howard,
> 
> Thanks for your interest in the topic of my book.
> 
> In the Puranas there is certainly plenty of vilification of certain
> groups--Jainas, Bauddhas, Kapalikas, and Pasupatas among them. But in
> first-millenium Puranas there is not yet any clear binary
> classification of two groups of sects along astika/nastika or
> Vedic/anti-Vedic lines. It seems the first clear expression of this
> binary occurs in Krsnamisra's comedic play Prabodhacandrodaya (late
> 11th c.). By the 14th century, this way of classifying groups has
> become the dominant discourse.
> 
> In the concluding chapter I offer some possibilities for how and why
> this shift occurred. But no spoilers here--you'll have to buy the
> book!
> 
> Best,
> Andrew
> 
> _____________________________________
> Andrew J. Nicholson
> Associate Professor
> SUNY Stony Brook
> Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
> Tel: (631) 632-4030  Fax: (631) 632-4098
> http://sbsuny.academia.edu/AndrewNicholson
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 9:53 PM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> The Gita's full inclusivism, as you describe it, provides a historical alternative to later Hindu notions of unity under the banner of brahman.
>> Best,
>> Howard
>> 
>> 
>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:25 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov <uskokov at uchicago.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, but Gita's syncretism is almost fully inclusive, it appears to me. and vague--no one is openly denied place, except for the "asuras". With Sanatana and Jiva Goswamis, we see a worldview of progress towards Krishna in which advaitins fit, though not high on the ladder, but not Buddhist, Jains etc. This seems similar to what Vijnanabhiksu and Madhusudana were doing, with the order reversed. Brihad-Bhagavatamrita does read like a project of "Unifying Hinduism" if we have in view the milieu in which it was written -- Jains were not gone, Muslims were the rulers, sometimes even temple patrons, but they are not "on the way to Krishna". There is, in other words, an attempt of delimiting the borders of the orthodox.
>> 
>> Kind regards
>> Aleksandar
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks for this great question. Of course one might say that the Gita itself is famously syncretistic, though certainly not metaphysically relativistic. We do have five occurences of 'brahma-nirvana', along with frequent, almost proto-Sankara references to Brahman, such as 13.31: "When one perceives that the state of separate beings stands as one, just from that one then advances to the brahman expansion." (my translation)
>>> All the best,
>>> Howard
>>> 
>>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 6:33 PM, Aleksandar Uskokov <uskokov at uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> It is, nevetheless, interesting to see Vaishnavas writing at roughly the same time as Vijnanabhiksu, Sanatana Goswami for instance, in his Brhad Bhagavatamrta, presenting a path in which those who we would classify as Hindus today find a place in the progression towards Krishna, and others -- Buddhists, Jains, what to say of Muslims -- do not. Do we see such schemes before the 16th century? If not, the question is, what has changed to allow for such a paradigm.
>>> 
>>> Kind regards
>>> Aleksandar
>>> 
>>> On Dec 17, 2013 7:00 PM, "Howard Resnick" <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you Andrew, and congratulations on your prize-winning publication. Forgive me for commenting based on the blurb, but I assume it to be accurate.
>>>> "?thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality."
>>>> This is certainly true in the case of some thinkers, and these thinkers did eventually emerge as powerful shapers of what one might call unified Hindu thought.
>>>> It bears mentioning that some of the involuntarily "unified" communities, certainly strict Vaishnava groups, perceived this development with something akin to theological horror. Indeed the greatest Vaishanva Vedantists, including Ramanuja, Madhva, and Baladeva, explicitly sought to refute the notion that all paths lead as rivers into the ocean of Brahman, unless by that one meant Krishna as param brahman (Gita 10.12)
>>>> Thus for centuries there has been strong tension, and theological battles, between on the one hand the unifying Hindu view, including what Halbfass called the "Neo-Hindu" thought of Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan etc, with their roots in Sankara et all, and on the other hand the various Vaishnava traditions including the Sri Vaishnava followers of Ramanuja, the Dvaita-vadi followers of Madhva, and the Gaudiya Vaishnava followers of Caitanya.
>>>> I present all this not as an argument against your thesis, which I basically accept, but rather to elicit your learned view on the matter.
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Howard
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Andrew Nicholson <andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Dear list members,
>>>> 
>>>> I am pleased to announce that my first book, Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History, is now available in an affordable paperback edition from Columbia University Press.
>>>> 
>>>> In addition, if you enter the discount code UNINIC when ordering the paperback edition from the Columbia University Press website you will receive $8.40 off the normal list price of $28.
>>>> 
>>>> For more information on the contents of the book, please click on the link or see below.
>>>> 
>>>> http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-14986-0/
>>>> 
>>>> Warmest season's greetings,
>>>> Andrew
>>>> _____________________________________
>>>> Andrew J. Nicholson
>>>> Associate Professor
>>>> SUNY Stony Brook
>>>> Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
>>>> Tel: (631) 632-4030  Fax: (631) 632-4098
>>>> http://sbsuny.academia.edu/AndrewNicholson
>>>> 
>>>> --------
>>>> 
>>>> Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History
>>>> 
>>>> Paper, 280 pages,
>>>> ISBN: 978-0-231-14987-7
>>>> $28.00 / ?19.50
>>>> 
>>>> Winner of the Book Award for Best First Book in the History of Religions, American Academy of Religion
>>>> 
>>>> Some postcolonial theorists argue that the idea of a single system of belief known as "Hinduism" is a creation of nineteenth-century British imperialists. Andrew J. Nicholson introduces another perspective: although a unified Hindu identity is not as ancient as some Hindus claim, it has its roots in innovations within South Asian philosophy from the fourteenth to seventeenth centuries. During this time, thinkers treated the philosophies of Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga, along with the worshippers of Visnu, Siva, and Sakti, as belonging to a single system of belief and practice. Instead of seeing such groups as separate and contradictory, they re-envisioned them as separate rivers leading to the ocean of Brahman, the ultimate reality.
>>>> 
>>>> Drawing on the writings of philosophers from late medieval and early modern traditions, including Vijnanabhiksu, Madhava, and Madhusudana Sarasvati, Nicholson shows how influential thinkers portrayed Vedanta philosophy as the ultimate unifier of diverse belief systems. This project paved the way for the work of later Hindu reformers, such as Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan, and Gandhi, whose teachings promoted the notion that all world religions belong to a single spiritual unity. In his study, Nicholson also critiques the way in which Eurocentric concepts?like monism and dualism, idealism and realism, theism and atheism, and orthodoxy and heterodoxy?have come to dominate modern discourses on Indian philosophy.
>>>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info









From Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu  Wed Dec 18 17:05:06 2013
From: Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu (Walser, Joseph)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 13 17:05:06 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0806E12@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <E5F571B94D36DB4AA048E0CF279CFC700FC77A3E@SSVMEXDAG01MB01.tufts.ad.tufts.edu>

Matthew,
I am particularly interested in Buddhism up to the beginning of the Gupta Dynasty. When I look at the Nikayas and the Agamas, I notice a handful (less than 10) of very carefully worded critiques of sacrifice -- some of which appear to be quite close to criticisms that brahmanical communities were already making. On the other hand, the rejection of yajna and hotara defined as wrong view can be found in the following sutras DN 23 MN 60, 76, 110, 114, 117 AN 3.117, 3.118, 3.119, 10.176, 10.211, 10.212, and 10.217 (sorry no page numbers, I cut this from my notes). I do not disagree with you that rejection of Vedic sacrifice BECAME important for some Buddhist communities later. But to say that from the time of the Buddha onward there was a blanket rejection of Vedic sacrifice across the board by all Buddhists on the basis of a few sutras assumes that all communities used all the sutras that are available to us now. It seems more likely that the anti-brahmanical sutras were enjoyed by non-brahmin communities and that communities of Brahmin Buddhists wouldn't pay much attention to them. 

This is part of a much larger argument that I hope to send off in a few months. 


Joseph Walser

Associate Professor

Department of Religion

Tufts University

________________________________________
From: Matthew Kapstein [mkapstei at uchicago.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:39 AM
To: Walser, Joseph; Andrew Nicholson; Indology List
Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement

But, Joseph,

"The Nastika is one who denies the existence of karma and the efficacy of yajna and hotara"
surely implies that Buddhists were n?stika-s in the sense that they did deny the efficacy of the
Vedic sacrificial cult.

As i recall, however, Kamala??la, in the TSP, does take the Buddhists and Brahmanical traditions
to be both ?stika-s in that they both affirm the doctrines of karma and mok?a.

I find it easier to make sense of these shifting uses of ?stika and n?stika if we understand the terms not
as fixed categories of types of believers, but in their literal sense as meaning "yeah-sayers" and "nay-sayers".
The precise usage may then be allowed to shift according to just what the yeah or nay are about in
any given context. Of course, a more or less fixed use did set in, but as you've all rightly suggested,
this was a relatively late development.

best,
Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago

________________________________________




From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu  Wed Dec 18 17:05:51 2013
From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 13 11:05:51 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0806E12@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <00D15C2A-C12D-49F0-AE8C-A49D5BCF6510@uts.cc.utexas.edu>

Then, I see the ad hominem uses of n?stika in many texts -- much like our "atheist"; it does not say much about the belief system of the target, just that the target is intensely disliked by the people throwing the epithet at it. I like Matthew's "nay-sayers"!!

Patrick



On Dec 18, 2013, at 10:39 AM, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:

> But, Joseph,
> 
> "The Nastika is one who denies the existence of karma and the efficacy of yajna and hotara"
> surely implies that Buddhists were n?stika-s in the sense that they did deny the efficacy of the
> Vedic sacrificial cult.
> 
> As i recall, however, Kamala??la, in the TSP, does take the Buddhists and Brahmanical traditions
> to be both ?stika-s in that they both affirm the doctrines of karma and mok?a.
> 
> I find it easier to make sense of these shifting uses of ?stika and n?stika if we understand the terms not
> as fixed categories of types of believers, but in their literal sense as meaning "yeah-sayers" and "nay-sayers".
> The precise usage may then be allowed to shift according to just what the yeah or nay are about in
> any given context. Of course, a more or less fixed use did set in, but as you've all rightly suggested,
> this was a relatively late development.
> 
> best,
> Matthew
> 
> 
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
> 
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> 
> ________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info






From francois.voegeli at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 17:25:45 2013
From: francois.voegeli at gmail.com (Francois Voegeli)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 13 18:25:45 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <E5F571B94D36DB4AA048E0CF279CFC700FC77A3E@SSVMEXDAG01MB01.tufts.ad.tufts.edu>
Message-ID: <C8287A02-1CCF-402A-BCF4-9AA987F56C6A@gmail.com>

Joseph,

Sorry to hop in this thread as a vedicist, but how would you (or your sources?) define "yajna" and "hotara".

Do you mean "sacrifice" (yaj;n;a-) and the "Hot.rs", i.e. officiants (from the plural hot;aara.h)?

F. Voegeli


On 18 d?c. 2013, at 18:05, "Walser, Joseph" <Joseph.Walser at TUFTS.EDU> wrote:

> Matthew,
> I am particularly interested in Buddhism up to the beginning of the Gupta Dynasty. When I look at the Nikayas and the Agamas, I notice a handful (less than 10) of very carefully worded critiques of sacrifice -- some of which appear to be quite close to criticisms that brahmanical communities were already making. On the other hand, the rejection of yajna and hotara defined as wrong view can be found in the following sutras DN 23 MN 60, 76, 110, 114, 117 AN 3.117, 3.118, 3.119, 10.176, 10.211, 10.212, and 10.217 (sorry no page numbers, I cut this from my notes). I do not disagree with you that rejection of Vedic sacrifice BECAME important for some Buddhist communities later. But to say that from the time of the Buddha onward there was a blanket rejection of Vedic sacrifice across the board by all Buddhists on the basis of a few sutras assumes that all communities used all the sutras that are available to us now. It seems more likely that the anti-brahmanical sutras were enjoyed by non-brahmin communities and that communities of Brahmin Buddhists wouldn't pay much attention to them. 
> 
> This is part of a much larger argument that I hope to send off in a few months. 
> 
> 
> Joseph Walser
> 
> Associate Professor
> 
> Department of Religion
> 
> Tufts University
> 
> ________________________________________
> From: Matthew Kapstein [mkapstei at uchicago.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:39 AM
> To: Walser, Joseph; Andrew Nicholson; Indology List
> Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
> 
> But, Joseph,
> 
> "The Nastika is one who denies the existence of karma and the efficacy of yajna and hotara"
> surely implies that Buddhists were n?stika-s in the sense that they did deny the efficacy of the
> Vedic sacrificial cult.
> 
> As i recall, however, Kamala??la, in the TSP, does take the Buddhists and Brahmanical traditions
> to be both ?stika-s in that they both affirm the doctrines of karma and mok?a.
> 
> I find it easier to make sense of these shifting uses of ?stika and n?stika if we understand the terms not
> as fixed categories of types of believers, but in their literal sense as meaning "yeah-sayers" and "nay-sayers".
> The precise usage may then be allowed to shift according to just what the yeah or nay are about in
> any given context. Of course, a more or less fixed use did set in, but as you've all rightly suggested,
> this was a relatively late development.
> 
> best,
> Matthew
> 
> 
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
> 
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> 
> ________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info







From Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu  Wed Dec 18 18:01:59 2013
From: Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu (Walser, Joseph)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 13 18:01:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <C8287A02-1CCF-402A-BCF4-9AA987F56C6A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E5F571B94D36DB4AA048E0CF279CFC700FC77B34@SSVMEXDAG01MB01.tufts.ad.tufts.edu>

Francois,

Please hop in. The phrase is that the one who has wrong view holds that: "natthi yi??ham natthi hutam". Since yittham and hutam are past participles, one could take this to mean that s/he believes that there is nothing sacrificed (yajayati) and nothing offered (pp. of juhati). But given the fact that (as Falk has demonstrated) several Pali sutras show a detailed knowledge of Vedic sacrifice, I see no reason not to assume that the wrong view indicated here is one that denies Vedic yajna and (agni)hotra.



-j

Joseph Walser

Associate Professor

Department of Religion

Tufts University

________________________________________
From: Francois Voegeli [francois.voegeli at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 12:25 PM
To: Walser, Joseph
Cc: Indology List
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement

Joseph,

Sorry to hop in this thread as a vedicist, but how would you (or your sources?) define "yajna" and "hotara".

Do you mean "sacrifice" (yaj;n;a-) and the "Hot.rs", i.e. officiants (from the plural hot;aara.h)?

F. Voegeli


On 18 d?c. 2013, at 18:05, "Walser, Joseph" <Joseph.Walser at TUFTS.EDU> wrote:

> Matthew,
> I am particularly interested in Buddhism up to the beginning of the Gupta Dynasty. When I look at the Nikayas and the Agamas, I notice a handful (less than 10) of very carefully worded critiques of sacrifice -- some of which appear to be quite close to criticisms that brahmanical communities were already making. On the other hand, the rejection of yajna and hotara defined as wrong view can be found in the following sutras DN 23 MN 60, 76, 110, 114, 117 AN 3.117, 3.118, 3.119, 10.176, 10.211, 10.212, and 10.217 (sorry no page numbers, I cut this from my notes). I do not disagree with you that rejection of Vedic sacrifice BECAME important for some Buddhist communities later. But to say that from the time of the Buddha onward there was a blanket rejection of Vedic sacrifice across the board by all Buddhists on the basis of a few sutras assumes that all communities used all the sutras that are available to us now. It seems more likely that the anti-brahmanical sutras were enjoyed by non-brahmin communities and that communities of Brahmin Buddhists wouldn't pay much attention to them.
>
> This is part of a much larger argument that I hope to send off in a few months.
>
>
> Joseph Walser
>
> Associate Professor
>
> Department of Religion
>
> Tufts University
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Matthew Kapstein [mkapstei at uchicago.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:39 AM
> To: Walser, Joseph; Andrew Nicholson; Indology List
> Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
>
> But, Joseph,
>
> "The Nastika is one who denies the existence of karma and the efficacy of yajna and hotara"
> surely implies that Buddhists were n?stika-s in the sense that they did deny the efficacy of the
> Vedic sacrificial cult.
>
> As i recall, however, Kamala??la, in the TSP, does take the Buddhists and Brahmanical traditions
> to be both ?stika-s in that they both affirm the doctrines of karma and mok?a.
>
> I find it easier to make sense of these shifting uses of ?stika and n?stika if we understand the terms not
> as fixed categories of types of believers, but in their literal sense as meaning "yeah-sayers" and "nay-sayers".
> The precise usage may then be allowed to shift according to just what the yeah or nay are about in
> any given context. Of course, a more or less fixed use did set in, but as you've all rightly suggested,
> this was a relatively late development.
>
> best,
> Matthew
>
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
>
> ________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info






From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Wed Dec 18 18:10:21 2013
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 13 18:10:21 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <E5F571B94D36DB4AA048E0CF279CFC700FC77A3E@SSVMEXDAG01MB01.tufts.ad.tufts.edu>
Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED0806EAD@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>

Dear Joseph,

Your observations on early Buddhist responses to sacrifice are interesting indeed, perhaps the
beginning of a new thread. No doubt my views are colored by the later sources I know best. 
In any event, opposition to sacrificial cult at some point became a hallmark of Buddhism - this
is precisely the reason for which Jayadeva praises Buddha as a compassionate avat?ra of Vi??u
in G?tagovinda, but that is another story! (and interesting that he does not invoke the 'leading sinners astray'
trope of the VP that was mentioned earlier).

best,
Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago




From selwyn at ntlworld.com  Thu Dec 19 10:14:59 2013
From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 13 10:14:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Digital Library of India
In-Reply-To: <6777532C-1E99-4CE3-AA02-4E322DBFD6AB@wwu.edu>
Message-ID: <52B2C723.2000506@ntlworld.com>

Thanks for this, Michael.  It might have been very useful. However, as 
often happens, immediately after posting to the list, I managed to get 
the downloading to work in dli-downloader. Later on with help from the 
author I could get the search function to work too. Now it works fine.

This is  a much easier method, I think. Dli-downloader copies the index 
of the DLI to one's harddisk. So one can search even without a 
connexion. Then a simple click selects and downloads to one's harddisk. 
It is automatically converted to a pdf of the text. Downloads are queued 
and resumed as necessary.

Lance Cousins
> One working method, from the now defunct blog of Somadeva Vasudeva:
>
>> Here is my method, working entirely in BBEdit without ever opening a terminal page.
>>
>> 1) Open a new BBEdit file and call it "getfiles.sh" or something similar. Put this file into a new folder, mine is called "Scans" (or name it after the book you are downloading). I keep this on the desktop for convenience and keep getfiles.sh open in BBEdit, ready for the next steps.
>>
>> Say you are now browsing DLI with Safari and open the first page of a book, say again the S??r?jyalak?m?p??hik?. If you look at the URL you see the following:
>>
>> http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/scripts/FullindexDefault.htm?path1=/rawdataupload/upload/0098/415&first=1&last=527&barcode=5990010098415
>>
>> This is not the URL you need to download the images, however. To get the URL you do need, you can control-click (hold down the control key while while clicking) on the image in Safari and select "Copy image address" (penultimate item in the pop-up menu). The URL is now in the global clipboard and can be pasted (cmd-v) anywhere.
>>
>> 2) Switch to BBEdit (cmd-tab), open getfiles.sh and paste the URL into the document (cmd-v). You should see:
>>
>> http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/rawdataupload/upload/0098/415/PTIFF/00000001.tif
>>
>> This is the URL for the first tiff image of the the scanned book. We prefix curl -O (the option -O means "save the file with the same name it has on the web site"), so that we have:
>>
>> curl -O http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/rawdataupload/upload/0098/415/PTIFF/00000001.tif
>>
>> To get the range of pages we need the last page. It is tedious to navigate to the last page in Safari, but that is not necessary. Instead, look at the address bar, it has a section like this: "&first=1&last=527"
>> So our last page is 527. The range of numbers is easy to set in curl, it is represented with square brackets as: [00000001-527].tif
>>
>> Our complete curl command is therefore:
>>
>> curl -O http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/rawdataupload/upload/0098/415/PTIFF/[00000001-527].tif
>>
>> To this we prefix on a separate line: "#!/bin/bash".
>>
>> 3) The whole file getfiles.sh should now look like this:
>>
>> #!/bin/bash
>> curl -O http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/rawdataupload/upload/0098/415/PTIFF/[00000001-527].tif
>>
>> Save this.
>>
>> 4) In the BBEdit "shebang" menu (it looks like this: #!, to the right of the "Window" menu) select "Run".
>>
>> 5) the images will download to your folder in a few seconds. A log window will open in BBEdit when you are done, telling you what was downloaded, just delete this, it is of no value. The images will appear in whatever folder the "getfiles.sh" file is in. Be careful, curl will simply overwrite any existing files with the same name, so immediately print them to pdf when done (see next step).
>>
>> 6) When you have the tiff images I would select them all, double click to open them in Preview and print them to a single PDF for convenience. In Preview there are two types of print now (not sure when this was introduced). So select all files in the "drawer" and then choose "print selected", not just "print". I now use an application called "Papers" to store, organize and tag such PDFs. Papers installs a convenient option in the "print selected" dialogue to print the PDFs directly to Papers. Immediately add bibliographic details and notes, you will otherwise have difficulties finding the file later.
>>
>> You can keep the older curl searches in the file getfiles.sh. Simply put a # at the head of the line they contain, this turns the line into a "comment" that is not read at runtime.
>>
>> While BBEdit is running curl, a ?script running? box appears that has a ?cancel? button. If you hit ?cancel? it will free up BBEdit?s script environment, but the curl command will keep running invisibly in the background until completion (tiff files will keep appearing in the folder). If you want to stop it you can use activity monitor (in Apps/Utilities). Find the Process called curl and hit the ?quit process? button (or if you use the terminal a lot, "kill" the appropriate PID).
>
> ??
> Michael Slouber
> Visiting Assistant Professor of South Asia
> Department of Liberal Studies
> Western Washington University






From dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk  Thu Dec 19 11:16:26 2013
From: dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk (dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 13 11:16:26 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <C8287A02-1CCF-402A-BCF4-9AA987F56C6A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52B2D58A.25873.D18266@localhost>

When I saw "yajna and hotara" in this thread I understood the second word as a slip 
for "hotra", a near-synonym of yajna (though strictly referring to the part of the yajna 
performed by the hot.r). Is that what was intended?

Dermot Killingley

On 18 Dec 2013 at 18:25, Francois Voegeli wrote:

> Joseph,
> 
> Sorry to hop in this thread as a vedicist, but how would you (or your
> sources?) define "yajna" and "hotara".
> 
> Do you mean "sacrifice" (yaj;n;a-) and the "Hot.rs", i.e. officiants
> (from the plural hot;aara.h)?
> 
> F. Voegeli
> 
> 
> On 18 d??c. 2013, at 18:05, "Walser, Joseph" <Joseph.Walser at TUFTS.EDU>
> wrote:
> 
> > Matthew,
> > I am particularly interested in Buddhism up to the beginning of the
> > Gupta Dynasty. When I look at the Nikayas and the Agamas, I notice a
> > handful (less than 10) of very carefully worded critiques of
> > sacrifice -- some of which appear to be quite close to criticisms
> > that brahmanical communities were already making. On the other hand,
> > the rejection of yajna and hotara defined as wrong view can be found
> > in the following sutras DN 23 MN 60, 76, 110, 114, 117 AN 3.117,
> > 3.118, 3.119, 10.176, 10.211, 10.212, and 10.217 (sorry no page
> > numbers, I cut this from my notes). I do not disagree with you that
> > rejection of Vedic sacrifice BECAME important for some Buddhist
> > communities later. But to say that from the time of the Buddha
> > onward there was a blanket rejection of Vedic sacrifice across the
> > board by all Buddhists on the basis of a few sutras assumes that all
> > communities used all the sutras that are available to us now. It
> > seems more likely that the anti-brahmanical sutras were enjoyed by
> > non-brahmin communities and that communities of Brahmin Buddhists
> > wouldn't pay much attention to them. 
> > 
> > This is part of a much larger argument that I hope to send off in a
> > few months. 
> > 
> > 
> > Joseph Walser
> > 
> > Associate Professor
> > 
> > Department of Religion
> > 
> > Tufts University
> > 
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Matthew Kapstein [mkapstei at uchicago.edu]
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:39 AM
> > To: Walser, Joseph; Andrew Nicholson; Indology List
> > Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
> > 
> > But, Joseph,
> > 
> > "The Nastika is one who denies the existence of karma and the
> > efficacy of yajna and hotara" surely implies that Buddhists were
> > n??stika-s in the sense that they did deny the efficacy of the Vedic
> > sacrificial cult.
> > 
> > As i recall, however, Kamala????la, in the TSP, does take the
> > Buddhists and Brahmanical traditions to be both ??stika-s in that
> > they both affirm the doctrines of karma and mok???a.
> > 
> > I find it easier to make sense of these shifting uses of ??stika and
> > n??stika if we understand the terms not as fixed categories of types
> > of believers, but in their literal sense as meaning "yeah-sayers"
> > and "nay-sayers". The precise usage may then be allowed to shift
> > according to just what the yeah or nay are about in any given
> > context. Of course, a more or less fixed use did set in, but as
> > you've all rightly suggested, this was a relatively late
> > development.
> > 
> > best,
> > Matthew
> > 
> > 
> > Matthew Kapstein
> > Directeur d'??tudes,
> > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
> > 
> > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> > The University of Chicago
> > 
> > ________________________________________
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > http://listinfo.indology.info
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info







From Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu  Thu Dec 19 11:23:22 2013
From: Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu (Walser, Joseph)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 13 11:23:22 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
In-Reply-To: <52B2D58A.25873.D18266@localhost>
Message-ID: <E5F571B94D36DB4AA048E0CF279CFC700FC7808F@SSVMEXDAG01MB01.tufts.ad.tufts.edu>

Sorry about that. It was indeed a slip on my part. The pali just has "hutam," (that which is offered) and not a reference to the sacrificial official.  Sorry for the confusion.
-j
Joseph Walser

Associate Professor

Department of Religion

Tufts University

________________________________________
From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk [dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:16 AM
To: Francois Voegeli; Indology List
Cc: Indology List
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement

When I saw "yajna and hotara" in this thread I understood the second word as a slip
for "hotra", a near-synonym of yajna (though strictly referring to the part of the yajna
performed by the hot.r). Is that what was intended?

Dermot Killingley

On 18 Dec 2013 at 18:25, Francois Voegeli wrote:

> Joseph,
>
> Sorry to hop in this thread as a vedicist, but how would you (or your
> sources?) define "yajna" and "hotara".
>
> Do you mean "sacrifice" (yaj;n;a-) and the "Hot.rs", i.e. officiants
> (from the plural hot;aara.h)?
>
> F. Voegeli
>
>
> On 18 d?c. 2013, at 18:05, "Walser, Joseph" <Joseph.Walser at TUFTS.EDU>
> wrote:
>
> > Matthew,
> > I am particularly interested in Buddhism up to the beginning of the
> > Gupta Dynasty. When I look at the Nikayas and the Agamas, I notice a
> > handful (less than 10) of very carefully worded critiques of
> > sacrifice -- some of which appear to be quite close to criticisms
> > that brahmanical communities were already making. On the other hand,
> > the rejection of yajna and hotara defined as wrong view can be found
> > in the following sutras DN 23 MN 60, 76, 110, 114, 117 AN 3.117,
> > 3.118, 3.119, 10.176, 10.211, 10.212, and 10.217 (sorry no page
> > numbers, I cut this from my notes). I do not disagree with you that
> > rejection of Vedic sacrifice BECAME important for some Buddhist
> > communities later. But to say that from the time of the Buddha
> > onward there was a blanket rejection of Vedic sacrifice across the
> > board by all Buddhists on the basis of a few sutras assumes that all
> > communities used all the sutras that are available to us now. It
> > seems more likely that the anti-brahmanical sutras were enjoyed by
> > non-brahmin communities and that communities of Brahmin Buddhists
> > wouldn't pay much attention to them.
> >
> > This is part of a much larger argument that I hope to send off in a
> > few months.
> >
> >
> > Joseph Walser
> >
> > Associate Professor
> >
> > Department of Religion
> >
> > Tufts University
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Matthew Kapstein [mkapstei at uchicago.edu]
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:39 AM
> > To: Walser, Joseph; Andrew Nicholson; Indology List
> > Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement
> >
> > But, Joseph,
> >
> > "The Nastika is one who denies the existence of karma and the
> > efficacy of yajna and hotara" surely implies that Buddhists were
> > n?stika-s in the sense that they did deny the efficacy of the Vedic
> > sacrificial cult.
> >
> > As i recall, however, Kamala??la, in the TSP, does take the
> > Buddhists and Brahmanical traditions to be both ?stika-s in that
> > they both affirm the doctrines of karma and mok?a.
> >
> > I find it easier to make sense of these shifting uses of ?stika and
> > n?stika if we understand the terms not as fixed categories of types
> > of believers, but in their literal sense as meaning "yeah-sayers"
> > and "nay-sayers". The precise usage may then be allowed to shift
> > according to just what the yeah or nay are about in any given
> > context. Of course, a more or less fixed use did set in, but as
> > you've all rightly suggested, this was a relatively late
> > development.
> >
> > best,
> > Matthew
> >
> >
> > Matthew Kapstein
> > Directeur d'?tudes,
> > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
> >
> > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> > The University of Chicago
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > http://listinfo.indology.info
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info





From garzilli at asiatica.org  Thu Dec 19 19:29:32 2013
From: garzilli at asiatica.org (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 13 20:29:32 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] JSAWS 14/1
Message-ID: <CAN4vRZvtYttcPKBR0zvJ16U3nSwiw3V=5b3rxKwtit=R8NZZ1w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends and Colleagues,

I am happy to announce Vol. 14/1 of the *Journal of South Asia Women
Studies* http://asiatica.org/

In this issue:

Editorial Note: ?Inclusive Rights: On Section 377 of the Indian Penal Code
on Sexual Activities?, by Enrica Garzilli
Paper: ?Deconstructing Social Media in India?, by Alessandro Cisilin
Paper: "European Union and Empowerment of Women in Afghanistan: Issues
and Challenges?, by Sheetal Sharma

Summary of the Papers
  The paper ?Deconstructing Social Media in India? by Alessandro Cisilin
analyzes the role of social networks in India, debunking the myth of the
impact of the fast-growing IT sector on poverty reduction.   The paper
?European Union and Empowerment of Women in Afghanistan: Issues
and Challenges? by Sheetal Sharma attempts to delineate that empowerment of
women is important to make women active participant and stakeholder in the
process of reconstruction of war torn-Afghanistan, although the concept of
empowerment cannot be defined in abstraction and cannot be applied
universally.


Enjoy!

Dr Enrica Garzilli
Editor-in-Chief, JSAWS


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 00:28:08 2013
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 13 01:28:08 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Landmark in the Didactics of Sanskrit
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoAyzUX0NQK0Ft_hz8Yivf6b1snBwyu_yLv9C3za1+ukSQ@mail.gmail.com>

Landmark in the Didactics of Sanskrit:

Le Sanskrit by Nalini Balbir according to the method ?Assimil?



Consisting of a book of almost 900 pages plus a number of CDs (1 MP3 CD, 4
audio-CDs), this is the FIRST EVER teaching method of Sanskrit (since more
than 200 years of Sanskrit didactics) which presents the language as a
lively means of expression and communication AND which is entirely based on
(first) adapted and (in later lessons) attested examples from literature
(drama, fables and other stories), to be learned through the widely tested
method of intuitive assimilation rather than through a grammar plus
exercises. The book is NOT an introduction to ?Spoken Sanskrit? (in India
several introductions and learning methods for this are available of
varying quality), although it does seem to have the capacity to bring
someone VERY close to it, so that any transition to a really active and
expressive use of Sanskrit should become natural and without the risk that
one deviates too much from a classical style of ?correct? Sanskrit. A
willingness to coin new terms for new, non-classical ?things? and
?concepts? is the minimum needed to embark on a full-fledged active use of
Sanskrit after going through this course. For instance, the concept of the
method of assimilation in learning a language could be adequately rendered
as nip?na-r?ti? (?????-?????). An English version of Balbir?s Le Sanskrit
is under preparation.



Information on the book including an audio-example can be found at:



http://fr.assimil.com/methodes/2678/declinaisons/super-pack-livre-cd-audio-cd-mp3-3969



Why is this a landmark and why can it be expected to be a turning point in
the didactics of Sanskrit? When the Europeans encountered Sanskrit in India
in the 17th and 18th century they encountered a highly sophisticated
communicative device << the question whether or not it was agreeing to
externally imposed definitions of a ?language, dead or alive? is hardly
interesting >> which had BOTH an archival function for traditional
religious hymns, ancient legends etc. AND an expressive-communicative
function. Curiously enough, from the first full-fledged grammar onwards
(the one by Wilkins), the main aim was to cater for an interest in the
archival function only but definitely not for any interest in communication
with those who actively used the communicative device. The result is a fast
and remarkable process that can be labeled as a complete
?antiquarianisation? of Sanskrit, and its assimilation with largely defunct
classical languages of Europe, Latin and ancient Greek. One of the results
of 200 years of didactics of Sanskrit as a ?dead? classical language is
that the first thing any student has to do if by chance s/he has the
natural interest in learning to know Sanskrit as a device that ALSO has an
expressive-communicative function, is either to shift to studying Hindi or
Tamil or to give up that interest and learn to learn Sanskrit as a purely
antiquarian tool giving priviliged access to archives of a supposed ancient
indo-european civilisation and to ?real? (rather than "remembered" or
?lived?) Indian history (with as an additional interest, almost like an
excuse already mentioned by Wilkins, to have access to a large part of the
vocabulary of modern Indian languages). Although the fact that the fast and
complete antiquarianisation of Sanskrit took place is *understandable* from
the point of view of the European context in which the ?discovery? was done
and found its constructed place and no-one need to be *blamed* for it, it
is no less *absurd* from both an Asian and a global point of view. It can
be predicted that Balbir?s Le Sanskrit and its English version that is
under preparation will indeed be a turning point because the natural demand
of students will be, every year again, to learn the complete thing even if
the preference of older generations of teachers will remain for some time
with the outdated, very incomplete and inadequate grammars and teaching
manuals ? which, of course, in their own way represent a labour of love and
passion by previous authors ? to which they have become so emotionally
attached. The older generations of teachers, hoping in vain that what they
learned and taught was indeed ?all? ever needed to learn of Sanskrit, might
for a few more years succeed to mold new generations of students into the
shackles of their old grammars and inadequate methods, but sooner or later
the demand of students and interested public will become too strong to be
neglected. Just as the fun of learning maths is in doing it, the fun of
learning Sanskrit is in using it ? also ? for expression and communication.




My felicitations to the author and commemoration of the encouraging event
of the publication of this new method of learning Sanskrit, I would like to
express as follows:



????????????????  ????????????????????? ?

???? ????? ?????????  ?????????? ???????????? ?



nip?nar?tim?rge?a   sa?sk?t?dhy?pan?rthakam /

cak?ra Nalin? ??stram   ato?dhyet? prasiddhyati //



-- 
Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben,
Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ?
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP,
A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles,
75005 Paris -- France.
JEMHouben at gmail.com
www.jyotistoma.nl


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 07:51:51 2013
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 13 08:51:51 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_nip=C4=81nar=C4=ABti=C5=9B=C4=81strastuti=E1=B8=A5_///_Fwd:_Landmark_in_the_Didactics_of_Sanskrit?=
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoA8qRAMkoXR8i0_kP25fMAm1ze8_pJRryrzxaBDp9n1-Q@mail.gmail.com>

????????????????  ????????????????????? ?

???? ????? ?????????  ?????????? ?????????? ?



nip?nar?tim?rge?a   sa?sk?t?dhy?pan?rthakam /

cak?ra Nalin? ??stram   ato?dhyet? prasidhyati //


(without gemination in the last word)


NB I just found a review of Nalini Balbir's Le Sanskrit on Youtube (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOaFAvdjQeQ) in which the author recommends
even to spend a few weeks learning French in order to be able to enjoy
using this Assimil method to learn Sanskrit!

NB2 Classical grammars of Sanskrit and specialised manuals such as Tubb &
Moose's Scholastic Sanskrit will obviously remain useful and important esp.
for advanced courses in Sanskrit.


JH

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com>
Date: 20 December 2013 01:28
Subject: Landmark in the Didactics of Sanskrit
To: "indology at list.indology.info" <indology at list.indology.info>


Landmark in the Didactics of Sanskrit:

Le Sanskrit by Nalini Balbir according to the method ?Assimil?



Consisting of a book of almost 900 pages plus a number of CDs (1 MP3 CD, 4
audio-CDs), this is the FIRST EVER teaching method of Sanskrit (since more
than 200 years of Sanskrit didactics) which presents the language as a
lively means of expression and communication AND which is entirely based on
(first) adapted and (in later lessons) attested examples from literature
(drama, fables and other stories), to be learned through the widely tested
method of intuitive assimilation rather than through a grammar plus
exercises. The book is NOT an introduction to ?Spoken Sanskrit? (in India
several introductions and learning methods for this are available of
varying quality), although it does seem to have the capacity to bring
someone VERY close to it, so that any transition to a really active and
expressive use of Sanskrit should become natural and without the risk that
one deviates too much from a classical style of ?correct? Sanskrit. A
willingness to coin new terms for new, non-classical ?things? and
?concepts? is the minimum needed to embark on a full-fledged active use of
Sanskrit after going through this course. For instance, the concept of the
method of assimilation in learning a language could be adequately rendered
as nip?na-r?ti? (?????-?????). An English version of Balbir?s Le Sanskrit
is under preparation.



Information on the book including an audio-example can be found at:



http://fr.assimil.com/methodes/2678/declinaisons/super-pack-livre-cd-audio-cd-mp3-3969



Why is this a landmark and why can it be expected to be a turning point in
the didactics of Sanskrit? When the Europeans encountered Sanskrit in India
in the 17th and 18th century they encountered a highly sophisticated
communicative device << the question whether or not it was agreeing to
externally imposed definitions of a ?language, dead or alive? is hardly
interesting >> which had BOTH an archival function for traditional
religious hymns, ancient legends etc. AND an expressive-communicative
function. Curiously enough, from the first full-fledged grammar onwards
(the one by Wilkins), the main aim was to cater for an interest in the
archival function only but definitely not for any interest in communication
with those who actively used the communicative device. The result is a fast
and remarkable process that can be labeled as a complete
?antiquarianisation? of Sanskrit, and its assimilation with largely defunct
classical languages of Europe, Latin and ancient Greek. One of the results
of 200 years of didactics of Sanskrit as a ?dead? classical language is
that the first thing any student has to do if by chance s/he has the
natural interest in learning to know Sanskrit as a device that ALSO has an
expressive-communicative function, is either to shift to studying Hindi or
Tamil or to give up that interest and learn to learn Sanskrit as a purely
antiquarian tool giving priviliged access to archives of a supposed ancient
indo-european civilisation and to ?real? (rather than "remembered" or
?lived?) Indian history (with as an additional interest, almost like an
excuse already mentioned by Wilkins, to have access to a large part of the
vocabulary of modern Indian languages). Although the fact that the fast and
complete antiquarianisation of Sanskrit took place is *understandable* from
the point of view of the European context in which the ?discovery? was done
and found its constructed place and no-one need to be *blamed* for it, it
is no less *absurd* from both an Asian and a global point of view. It can
be predicted that Balbir?s Le Sanskrit and its English version that is
under preparation will indeed be a turning point because the natural demand
of students will be, every year again, to learn the complete thing even if
the preference of older generations of teachers will remain for some time
with the outdated, very incomplete and inadequate grammars and teaching
manuals ? which, of course, in their own way represent a labour of love and
passion by previous authors ? to which they have become so emotionally
attached. The older generations of teachers, hoping in vain that what they
learned and taught was indeed ?all? ever needed to learn of Sanskrit, might
for a few more years succeed to mold new generations of students into the
shackles of their old grammars and inadequate methods, but sooner or later
the demand of students and interested public will become too strong to be
neglected. Just as the fun of learning maths is in doing it, the fun of
learning Sanskrit is in using it ? also ? for expression and communication.




My felicitations to the author and commemoration of the encouraging event
of the publication of this new method of learning Sanskrit, I would like to
express as follows:



????????????????  ????????????????????? ?

???? ????? ?????????  ?????????? ???????????? ?



nip?nar?tim?rge?a   sa?sk?t?dhy?pan?rthakam /

cak?ra Nalin? ??stram   ato?dhyet? prasiddhyati //



-- 
Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben,
Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ?
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP,
A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles,
75005 Paris -- France.
JEMHouben at gmail.com
www.jyotistoma.nl


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From harshadehejia at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 20 13:53:14 2013
From: harshadehejia at hotmail.com (Harsha Dehejia)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 13 08:53:14 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Smara
Message-ID: <BLU179-W1649957589385582441156A0C40@phx.gbl>

Friends~
 
The Sanskrit word smara means both memory and love.
 
What is the reason for this?
 
A colleague suggested that in the realisation of love there is the remembrance of all loves.
 
Kind regards.
 
Harsha
Harsha V. Dehejia
Carrleton University, Ottawa,ON.
Canada. 


 		 	   		  


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From ganesan at ifpindia.org  Fri Dec 20 15:02:51 2013
From: ganesan at ifpindia.org (Ganesan T)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 13 20:32:51 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Smara
In-Reply-To: <BLU179-W1649957589385582441156A0C40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAK_cSzpJ0z60AK-yyLEEgtDv1tkeZoz92G9vmTR4dc9MGbw0Zw@mail.gmail.com>

In reply one can cite the following verse of the ancient Sivamahimnastava:

asiddhArthA naiva kvachidapi sadevAsuranare

nivartante nityaM jagati jayino yasya vishikhAH .

sa pashyannIsha tvAmitarasurasaadhAraNamabhUt.h

smaraH smartavyAtmA na hi vashishhu pathyaH paribhavaH ..

##

The cupid's(love-god `manmatha's) (flower) arrows never return

unaccomplished whether the victims are gods or demons or men . However O,

master! he has now become just a *remembered soul* (without body),since he

looked upon you as any other ordinary god, shot his arrow and got burnt to

ashes,in no time . Insulting masters (who have controlled their senses),

does one no good .


Ganesan


On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Harsha Dehejia
<harshadehejia at hotmail.com>wrote:

> Friends~
>
> The Sanskrit word smara means both memory and love.
>
> What is the reason for this?
>
> A colleague suggested that in the realisation of love there is the
> remembrance of all loves.
>
> Kind regards.
>
> Harsha
> Harsha V. Dehejia
> Carrleton University, Ottawa,ON.
> Canada.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>



--


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From bill.m.mak at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 15:17:03 2013
From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 13 00:17:03 +0900
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Shastri's 1901 Report on the Search for Sanskrit	Manuscripts (1895-1900)
In-Reply-To: <DUB114-W970CCF9792E338F02F21ECA5D80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <9BEABB89-6284-46A4-A03D-C6564D584DF4@gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

Would anybody have a pdf scan of the following work? I could only find the 1905 Report. The 1901 Report is not available anywhere here in Japan and I have searched through archive.org, hathitrust.org and Wujastik's mss catalogue site but to no avail.

Shastri, Haraprasad. Report on the Search for Sanskrit Manuscripts (1895-1900). Calcutta: Asiatic soc. of Bengal, 1901.

The work appears to have only 25pp. So it should be light enough to send through private email. 

Many thanks in advance and best wishes for the festive season,

Bill Mak
Kyoto Sangyo University / Kyoto University


Bill M. Mak

University of Kyoto
Graduate School of Humanities, Faculty of Letters
Department of Indological Studies
Yoshida-Honmachi, Sakyo-ku, 
Kyoto, 606-8501, Japan

bill.m.mak at gmail.com

http://www.billmak.com



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From h.arganisjuarez at yahoo.com.mx  Sun Dec 22 15:00:42 2013
From: h.arganisjuarez at yahoo.com.mx (Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 13 07:00:42 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AFRICANS IN INDIA: FROM SLAVES TO GENERALS AND	RULERS	Tour & exhibition
In-Reply-To: <48B7485F-B9BA-478E-A9AD-B204E747B202@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1387724442.60086.YahooMailNeo@web164603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Honorables Professors:
I am looking for the exact quote source in the all Sruti o Smrite body this sloka:
atma-mata guru patni
br?hmani raja-patnika
dhenur dh?tr? tath? prithvi
saptaita matarah smrtah?
1. Atma-mata -Real mother, from whose womb we have come to this world
2. Guru patni- wife of the teacher or spiritual master.
3. Brahmani- the wife of a brahamana
4. Raja-patnika- the wife of the king, or the queen.
5. Dhenu- Cow is our mother.
6.Dhatri-Nurse is also mother.
7. Tatha prithvi-the earth is also our mother.

?With my best whises
Merry Christmas to all.
Dr. Horacio Francisco Arganis Ju?rez
Lic. M.A. Ph. D. Catedr?tico Investigador de la Universidad
Internacional Euroamericana.
Departamento de Filosof?a y Religi?n Comparada.
www.uie.edu.es



El Mi?rcoles, 27 de noviembre, 2013 20:32:54, Ken Robbins <rajanawab at comcast.net> escribi?:
 
?>
>
>
>>?
>>AFRICANS IN INDIA: FROM SLAVES TO GENERALS AND RULERS 
>
>
>AN EXHIBITION AT GEORGE MASON UNIVERSITY MASON HALL DECEMBEr 2-February 4 Monday through Friday
>
>
>TOUR  11 AM THURSDAY 12/5
>>
>>?
>>?
>>>
>>>??
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Kenneth X. Robbins, ?a curator of the exhibition "Africans in India" and editor of the book "African Elites in India" will conduct a special tour of the exhibit at Mason Hall, George Mason University ?@ 11AM Thursday December 5. No reservations are required.?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>East African rulers, prime ministers, generals, and admirals have distinguished themselves in India especially in Bengal, Bijapur, Ahmednagar, Gujarat, the Mughal empire, and the states of Janjira and Sachin.??Success was theirs but is also a testimony to the?open-mindedness? of Indian society. This exhibition uses paintings,?photographs, coins, stamps, and documents to tell the unique stories of how?enslaved Africans attained the pinnacle of military and political?authority ?on another continent.?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>This exhibition was held over at the Schomburg Center for Black Culture of the New York Public Library. It will travel to the?Museum?of?African American?History (Boston), the DuSable Museum of African American History (Chicago), and the prestigious Indira Gandhi National Center for the Arts (New Delhi). Plans was further venues in THe U.S., Arica, India, and elsewhere are under consideration. For more?information, contact Kenneth Robbins at ?rajanawab at comcast.net or his co-curator Sylviane Diouf at?sdiouf at nypl.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The exhibit, which is open Monday to Friday, will be on display December 2-February 4. Directions to Mason Hall are as follows:?
>>>>>Take 495 towards Norther Virginia/Fairfax
>>>>>Take exit 49 for Interstate 66 West toward Manassas/Front Royal
>>>>>Take exit 60 to merge onto VA-123 South/Chain Bridge Road toward Fairfax
>>>>>Continue on 123 South
>>>>>Turn left onto University Drive
>>>>>From University Drive, take the first right onto our campus
>>>>>Turn right at the stop sign onto Patriot Circle
>>>>>Go straight through another stop sign to stay on Patriot Circle
>>>>>At the roundabout, drive 3/4 around to exit onto Mason Pond Drive
>>>>>Turn left into the Mason Pond Parking Deck Visitors Entrance
>>>>>You may park on the first three levels of the Mason Pond Parking deck. ?When you exit the parking deck, stay on the left sidewalk in front of the Center for the Arts (Mason Pond will be to the right). ?You will see Mason Hall ahead of you past a small courtyard. ?Enter Mason Hall at the ground level and the exhibition will be in the atrium in front of you.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
http://listinfo.indology.info


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From ph2046 at columbia.edu  Sun Dec 22 15:46:03 2013
From: ph2046 at columbia.edu (Paul Hackett)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 13 10:46:03 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] source of upasarga grammar verse?
Message-ID: <5886F02D-FC49-44BB-97E5-F31569B47296@columbia.edu>

Dear colleagues,

   I am translating a late first millennium Indic Buddhist commentary in Tibetan translation that contains an unidentified quotation about the function of an upasarga.  I am hoping that someone might recognize the source.
   In glossing the meaning of _nye bar 'phrog_ (*upahriyante), the passage reads:

nye bar 'phrog cing zhes pa ni nye bar bsgyur ba dang bcas pa'i 'phrog pa'i skad kyi byings ni zhu ba'i don la 'jug ste

     nye bar gyur pa'i dbang gis ni,
     skad kyi byings las don gzhan 'gyur,
     gang g?'i chu ni mngar mod kyang,
     rgya mtsho'i chu yis ji bzhin no,

zhes bshad pas so,

which roughly translates as:

"The linguistic root, ?h? (?to carry, surpass, destroy, remove?) together with the verbal prefix [upa-], conveys the meaning of ?offering up?. Hence, [it is in accordance] with the explanation:

     Through the force of an upasarga, 
     [A verb] takes on a different meaning from its linguistic root, 
     Just as although the water of the Ganges is sweet, 
     [It is] likewise [transformed] by the water of the ocean."

If anyone recognizes this verse and knows its source, I would appreciate knowing it.

Thank you,

Paul Hackett
Columbia University







From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 23:57:16 2013
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 13 15:57:16 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] source of upasarga grammar verse?
In-Reply-To: <5886F02D-FC49-44BB-97E5-F31569B47296@columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <BBD2FDD1-B9C2-4E06-8E20-18618B0FAED3@mail.ubc.ca>

The commentator has either used a less commonly known version of the following or combined two originally different verse lines to form a single verse. 
The more commonly known version is:
???????? ????????? ????? ??????? ????? ?
??????????-?????-?????-????????? ??
The first line matches with "Through the force of an upasarga, [A verb] takes on a different meaning from its linguistic root."

I have read a line with the meaning "Just as although the water of the Ganges is sweet, [It is] likewise [transformed] by the water of the ocean." somewhere, but cannot recall exactly where. Pl check, if you have not already done so, texts like the following:
Tilaka's Nipatavyayopasargav,rtti published in 1951 by Tirumala-Tirupati Devasthanams Press
The anonymous Laghuupasargav.rtti edited by V. Krishnamacharya and published in 1962 by Adyar Libary.
Upasargaartha-candrikaa by Charudeva Shastri. 
Lehrschrift u?ber die zwanzig Pra?verbien im Sanskrit. Kritische Ausgabe der Vim. s?atyupa- sargavr. tti und der tibetischen U?bersetzung N?e bar bsgyur ba n?i s?u pa?i ?grel pa. (Editionen von Texten der Ca ?ndra-Schule. Band I). Von Dragomir Dimitrov 

a.a.




From jhakgirish at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 23 12:37:10 2013
From: jhakgirish at yahoo.com (girish jha)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 13 04:37:10 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Divine Christmas & New Year 2014
Message-ID: <1387802230.58490.YahooMailNeo@web122302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Dear Colleagues, 

________________________________


________________________________


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From h.arganisjuarez at yahoo.com.mx  Mon Dec 23 15:17:07 2013
From: h.arganisjuarez at yahoo.com.mx (Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 13 07:17:07 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Called for paper in Journal
Message-ID: <1387811827.91187.YahooMailNeo@web164605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>



?Dear colleagues:
Regards. If you want to edited some of your essays, etc. Please try to contact this Journal. You can check in this link:
Resultados de b?squeda
	1. [PDF]
Lord?Krishna?recognized by scholars long time ago - journal?...
www.journalacademicmarketingmysticismonline.net/...?	* 
	* Traducir esta p?gina
de HF Arganis-Ju?rez - ?2011 - ?Art?culos relacionadosHoracio Francisco Arganis-, Ph.D. Universidad?...?This study re-evaluated available evidence ...?from the History of Hindu. Presenting a critical studie about Dr. Preaciado work about Krishna in the Puranic Cicle.
Dr. Horacio Francisco Arganis Ju?rez
Lic. M.A. Ph. D. Catedr?tico Investigador de la Universidad
Internacional Euroamericana.
Departamento de Filosof?a y Religi?n Comparada.
www.uie.edu.es


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From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 11:45:49 2013
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 13 12:45:49 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pingala Chanda Sutra publisher info
Message-ID: <CAKA8X4059_B1R4_cn_G69HnNYDVaMVF8b9GmLV9jm6H-99euXw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues

Might someone have a printed edition of the 1931 Pingala Chanda Sutra
published by Janakinath Kabyatirtha and Brothers, from which they could
send some information from the title page?
The archive.org version of the pdf has some missing letters in the
following section below the full title:
 Siddh?nta.....tIrth?yan?makena ?r?s?t?n?tha....?ryy?yabha???c?ryye?.

Happy holidays to everyone
Cheers
james

-- 
James Hartzell, PhD
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
The University of Trento, Italy


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From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 15:16:49 2013
From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Durgamohan Bhattacharya)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 13 20:46:49 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pingala Chanda Sutra publisher info
In-Reply-To: <CAKA8X4059_B1R4_cn_G69HnNYDVaMVF8b9GmLV9jm6H-99euXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABEB9qKM0ggpGSDQQX5WBeytQGXgAR=QepBcrMTPb7jmzivgSQ@mail.gmail.com>

25 12 13

Dear Friend,

My 1840 ?aka that is 1917 edn too has a damaged title page. I recovered the
reading as

*siddh?ntas?mavedat?rthopan?makena*

*?r?s?t?n?thas?m?dhy?yibha???c?rye?a*

*samp?dtam*

This is guesswork as we do with damaged/illegible readings in old
manuscripts. The first word *siddh?nta *must have been the initial of the
institutionally awarded title. But I did not see anyone else using it. Hope
this helped.

Happy New Year Eve for all

Best

DB


On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 5:15 PM, James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear Colleagues
>
> Might someone have a printed edition of the 1931 Pingala Chanda Sutra
> published by Janakinath Kabyatirtha and Brothers, from which they could
> send some information from the title page?
> The archive.org version of the pdf has some missing letters in the
> following section below the full title:
> Siddh?nta.....tIrth?yan?makena ?r?s?t?n?tha....?ryy?yabha???c?ryye?.
>
> Happy holidays to everyone
> Cheers
> james
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC)
> The University of Trento, Italy
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
>


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From jhakgirish at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 27 14:40:19 2013
From: jhakgirish at yahoo.com (girish jha)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 13 06:40:19 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Year 2014
Message-ID: <1388155219.97791.YahooMailNeo@web122303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

  

________________________________


________________________________


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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 28 07:24:45 2013
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 13 07:24:45 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO 15919
Message-ID: <DUB114-W70168DDFBED3264AB07C68A5CC0@phx.gbl>

Dear colleagues,

I have read today with appreciation the wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15919 which explains in clear language some basic issues about the Romanization choices that we need to make so often, and that some of us are forced to reflect upon at the points of transition between Indian studies and neighboring fields of study, or even within Indian studies, as soon as one deals with more than only Sanskrit sources. ISO 15919 provides a standard that one can cite, while for the "IAST" that we all follow more or less faithfully, there is nothing better (as far as I know) than the Rapport of 1894 (http://shashir.autodidactus.org/shashir_umich/dl/rapportdetranscription.pdf).
Indeed, that wikipedia page explains: "IAST is not a standard (as no specification exists for it) but a convention developed in Europe for the transliteration of Sanskrit rather than the transcription of Indic scripts." (I don't understand why the terms transliteration and transcription are confounded, but OK.) I think I would myself like to adopt this standard from now on.

I assume that some members of this list were involved in the establishment of ISO 15919, so I address some related questions to the list.

(1) Does anyone have a pdf handy of "ISO 15919:2001 Information and documentation -- Transliteration of Devanagari and related Indic scripts into Latin characters", which apparently costs 128 CHF if one buys it through the ISO website:

http://www.iso.org/iso/home/store/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=28333

(2) How does one cite such a document in a bibliography?

(3) Does ISO 15919 provide a means for disambiguating cases of juxtaposed vowels from the unitary semivowel signs  (e.g. prauga which is not ????? but ?????)? (The use of the umlaut sign, often used conventionally in Indian studies, but not to my knowledge based on any published standard, is not convenient typographically as soon as long vowels come into play.)

(4) In the part of the document that is previewable, it is first stated:

"This International Standard provides tables which enable the transliteration into Latin characters from text in Indic scripts which are largely specified in rows 09 to 0D of UCS (ISO/IEC 10646-1 and Unicode)."

But the expectations raised by the use of the comprehensive term "Indic scripts" are immediately limited in what seems a somewhat arbitrary manner, incompatible with the universal pretensions of ISO:

"The tables provide for the Devanagari, Bengali (including the characters used for writing Assamese), Gujarati, Gurmukhi, Kannada, Malayalam, Oriya, Sinhala, Tamil, and Telugu scripts which are used in India, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. The Devanagari, Bengali, Gujarati, Gurmukhi, and Oriya scripts are North Indian scripts, and the Kannada, Malayalam, Tamil, and Telugu scripts are South Indian scripts.
The Burmese, Khmer, Thai, Lao and Tibetan scripts which also share a common origin with the Indic scripts, and which are used predominantly in Myanmar, Cambodia, Thailand, Laos, Bhutan and the Tibetan Autonomous Region within China, are not covered by this International Standard."

Does anyone know why other Indic scripts of Southeast Asia (Javanese, Balinese, Cam etc.) were not mentioned at all, and whether there were any considerations of principle (rather than practical difficulties inherent in the transliteration of some Indic scripts used in Southeast Asia) that led to the limitation to Indic scripts from South Asia?

Thank you. Best wishes,

Arlo Griffiths
EFEO / Jakarta
 		 	   		  


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 11:52:12 2013
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 13 12:52:12 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO 15919
In-Reply-To: <DUB114-W70168DDFBED3264AB07C68A5CC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CfFroLWq49CxSfwnfF=ov7eT1a3_i3duiejJ=03=65EHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Arlo,
Dr Anthony Stone was involved in creating ISO 15919, and I made a link to
his pages from

   - http://indology.info/papers/

One can't get a free copy of the standard there, I'm afraid, although
Anthony's pages are full of information and may answer some questions.

Best,

Dominik


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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 28 23:46:18 2013
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 13 23:46:18 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO 15919
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CfFroLWq49CxSfwnfF=ov7eT1a3_i3duiejJ=03=65EHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB114-W65A008823A88C27BF87FB2A5CC0@phx.gbl>

Thank you Dominik. Indeed, at least one question answered, in n. 12: transliterate ????? as pra:uga.

Best wishes,

Arlo

From: wujastyk at gmail.com
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 12:52:12 +0100
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] ISO 15919
To: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com
CC: indology at list.indology.info

Dear Arlo,
Dr Anthony Stone was involved in creating ISO 15919, and I made a link to his pages from 


http://indology.info/papers/One can't get a free copy of the standard there, I'm afraid, although Anthony's pages are full of information and may answer some questions.  



Best,
Dominik



 		 	   		  


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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 28 23:52:08 2013
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 13 23:52:08 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Hooykaas,_S=C5=ABrya-sevana?=
Message-ID: <DUB114-W124511F1D1554DD4A00A3C3A5CC0@phx.gbl>

I have the impression that the following book may be available through GoogleBooks in the USA:


  Hooykaas, Christiaan. 1966. S?rya-Sevana: The Way to God of a Balinese Siva Priest. Verhandelingen Der Koninklijke Nederlandse Akademie van Wetenschappen, Afd. Letterkunde. - Nieuwe Reeks 3. Amsterdam: N. V. Noord-Hollandsche uitgevers maatschappij.
  

Would any kind colleague who can access this book in pdf form be willing to send me the pdf? Or else, a scan of the single page 6 would be sufficient for my present purposes.

Thank you.

Arlo Griffiths
EFEO/Jakarta



 		 	   		  


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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Sun Dec 29 00:05:10 2013
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 13 00:05:10 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Hooykaas,_S=C5=ABrya-sevana?=
In-Reply-To: <527604524-1388275252-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1537590821-@b14.c3.bise3.blackberry>
Message-ID: <DUB114-W808E900D26187CEECE9A8EA5CF0@phx.gbl>

Wonderful, Antonio! Many thanks. Regrettable that this did not pop up (high enough) among the google hits when I did a search earlier today!

Best wishes,

Arlo 

> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Hooykaas, S?rya-sevana
> To: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com
> From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 00:00:50 +0000
> 
> Hi Arlo,
> 
> You can find this monograph (and some others besides) in the KNAW Digital Library here: http://www.dwc.knaw.nl/toegangen/digital-library-knaw/?pagetype=publist&search_author=PE00000970
> 
> It's a really useful resource for finding works in this series although not all of the monographs in the series have been scanned yet.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Antonio
> Sent via BlackBerryR from Vodafone
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arlo Griffiths <arlogriffiths at hotmail.com>
> Sender: "INDOLOGY" <indology-bounces at list.indology.info>
> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 23:52:08 
> To: indology at list.indology.info<indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hooykaas, Srya-sevana
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info
 		 	   		  


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From csaba_dezso at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 30 20:06:32 2013
From: csaba_dezso at yahoo.co.uk (Csaba Dezso)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 13 21:06:32 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ayyar on Kalidasa
Message-ID: <520697D9-C996-4732-89F4-F11734B7C50C@yahoo.co.uk>

Dear colleagues,

I should be most grateful for a copy of the following article:

K. Balasubrahmanya Ayyar, A Study of Kalidasa in Relation to Political Science, in: Proceedings of the Third All-India Oriental Conference (Madras, 1923), 1924, pp. 1?16.

Many thanks and best wishes for the new year,
Csaba Dezs?



------
Csaba Dezs?, PhD
Senior Lecturer
Department of Indo-European Studies
E?tv?s Lor?nd University
H-1088 Budapest
M?zeum krt. 6-8/A.
Hungary
tel.: +36-1-4116500 / ext. 5368
e-mail: dezso.csaba at btk.elte.hu


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From ajit.gargeshwari at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 17:08:52 2013
From: ajit.gargeshwari at gmail.com (Ajit Gargeshwari)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 13 22:38:52 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ayyar of Kalidasa
Message-ID: <CALaEiehac9-0Go4O0Zn6v3B0QPcinM84BSJ8Lw_DTSvo7Ooong@mail.gmail.com>

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
? ????? ??????? ?? ??????????? ?????? ????? ?? ? ?????
??? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ? ?????? ???????? ???????2.20??


?Its available at DLI
Proceedings_And_Transactions_Of_The_Third_Oriental_Conference_Madras.<http://www.new1.dli.ernet.in/cgi-bin/metainfo.cgi?&title1=Proceedings_And_Transactions_Of_The_Third_Oriental_Conference_Madras&author1=S.%20Krishnaswami%20Ayangar&subject1=LANGUAGE.%20LINGUISTICS.%20LITERATURE&year=1925%20&language1=multilingual&pages=840&barcode=5010010016952&author2=&identifier1=&publisher1=Govt%20of%20Madras&contributor1=&vendor1=NONE&scanningcentre1=rmsc,%20iiith%20&slocation1=NONE&sourcelib1=Donor%20Chennai&scannerno1=0&digitalrepublisher1=Digital%20Library%20Of%20India&digitalpublicationdate1=2005-10-07&numberedpages1=&unnumberedpages1=&rights1=IN_COPYRIGHT&copyrightowner1=&copyrightexpirydate1=&format1=Tagged%20Image%20File%20Format%20&url=/data7/upload/0202/339>,
5010010016952. S. Krishnaswami Ayangar. 1925. multilingual. LANGUAGE.
LINGUISTICS. LITERATURE. 840 pgs.?


> Dear colleagues,
>
> I should be most grateful for a copy of the following article:
>
> K. Balasubrahmanya Ayyar, A Study of Kalidasa in Relation to Political
> Science, in: Proceedings of the Third All-India Oriental Conference
> (Madras, 1923), 1924, pp. 1?16.
>
> Many thanks and best wishes for the new year,
> Csaba Dezs?
>
>
>
> ------
> Csaba Dezs?, PhD
> Senior Lecturer
> Department of Indo-European Studies
> E?tv?s Lor?nd University
> H-1088 Budapest
> M?zeum krt. 6-8/A.
> Hungary
> tel.: +36-1-4116500 / ext. 5368
> e-mail: dezso.csaba at btk.elte.hu
>
>
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 17:20:02 2013
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 13 18:20:02 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New article published in History of Science in South Asia
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cd4rPFvnGe5eLEbJEsSDrb9Na-y6u515hk=3oQ9PCHMcw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear readers:

?*?*
* History of Science in South Asia* has just published a new article

"?Beginnings of Indian and Chinese calendrical astronomy" (?pp.21-78) ?
by ?Asko Parpola
?
in its
? current issue at http://hssa.sayahna.org/ojs/index.php/hssa.
We invite youto review the table of contents here and then visit our web
site to review
articles and items of interest.

Thanks for the continuing interest in our work,
Dominik Wujastyk
HSSA Editorial Board

History of Science in South Asia
Vol 1 (2013)
Table of Contents
http://hssa.sayahna.org/ojs/index.php/hssa/issue/view/1

Articles
--------
The transmission of Greek astral science into India reconsidered - Critical
remarks on the contents and the newly discovered manuscript of the
Yavanaj?taka (1-20)
        Bill M. Mak

Beginnings of Indian and Chinese calendrical astronomy (21-78)
        Asko Parpola


Book reviews
--------
Review of J. M. Delire (ed.), Astronomy and Mathematics In Ancient India
(Leuven, etc.: Peeters, 2012) (79-82)
        Clemency Montelle


________________________________________________________________________
History of Science in South Asia
http://hssa.sayahna.org


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From csaba_dezso at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 31 17:25:49 2013
From: csaba_dezso at yahoo.co.uk (Csaba Dezso)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 13 18:25:49 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ayyar of Kalidasa
In-Reply-To: <CALaEiehac9-0Go4O0Zn6v3B0QPcinM84BSJ8Lw_DTSvo7Ooong@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7183AA3E-F1AC-4A64-AA51-F6EA5EC5F31F@yahoo.co.uk>

Many thanks to Elliot Stern, Debabrata Chakrabarti and Ajit Gargeshwari, I now have the article.

2013.12.31. d?tummal, 18:08 id?pontban Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gargeshwari at gmail.com> ?rta:

> 
> 
> Regards
> Ajit Gargeshwari
> ? ????? ??????? ?? ??????????? ?????? ????? ?? ? ?????
> ??? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ? ?????? ???????? ???????2.20??
> 
> 
> ?Its available at DLI
> Proceedings_And_Transactions_Of_The_Third_Oriental_Conference_Madras., 5010010016952. S. Krishnaswami Ayangar. 1925. multilingual. LANGUAGE. LINGUISTICS. LITERATURE. 840 pgs.?
> 
> 
> Dear colleagues,
> 
> I should be most grateful for a copy of the following article:
> 
> K. Balasubrahmanya Ayyar, A Study of Kalidasa in Relation to Political Science, in: Proceedings of the Third All-India Oriental Conference (Madras, 1923), 1924, pp. 1?16.
> 
> Many thanks and best wishes for the new year,
> Csaba Dezs?
> 
> 
> 
> ------
> Csaba Dezs?, PhD
> Senior Lecturer
> Department of Indo-European Studies
> E?tv?s Lor?nd University
> H-1088 Budapest
> M?zeum krt. 6-8/A.
> Hungary
> tel.: +36-1-4116500 / ext. 5368
> e-mail: dezso.csaba at btk.elte.hu
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> http://listinfo.indology.info



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