From lubint at WLU.EDU  Fri Jul  1 02:39:02 2011
From: lubint at WLU.EDU (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 11 22:39:02 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Chanting_of_=C5=9Blokas_or_k=C4=81vya?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cd1WNy1D+Gk8dH_5Cvk9eQraGZ2hTNjRa1357kzttyysA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227092991.23782.13882362343854950313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have a number of such recordings of Dr. H. V. Nagaraja Rao of Mysore (who is known to many of you):
http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint/texts/index.htm

That page also has links to other sound recordings, notably including those of Ashwini Deo:
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~asd49/meters.html
and Tim Cahill:
http://www.loyno.edu/~tccahill/skt_sound_files.html

Timothy Lubin
Professor, Department of Religion
Lecturer in Law and Religion, School of Law
208 Baker Hall
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, Virginia 24450 USA

American Philosophical Society sabbatical fellow, 2010-2011

lubint at wlu.edu<mailto:lubint at wlu.edu>  |  http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint  |  http://ssrn.com/author=930949
office: +1 540.458.8146
mob: +1 540.461.3435




From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Dominik Wujastyk
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 10:36 AM
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Chanting of ?lokas or k?vya

Dear colleagues,

A student recently asked me if I could recommend some clear, beautiful, accurate recitation of Sanskrit ?lokas or other verses or even connected prose.  He has about two years Sanskrit under his belt, but hasn't got the language strongly in his ears yet.

Can you recommend any easily-available recordings, videos, or other media (free?) that would fit the bill?

Many thanks
Dominik
!SIG:4e0c8f17198926551521308!


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From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jul  1 11:54:19 2011
From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 11 04:54:19 -0700
Subject: publication on recent history of indology : Erich Frauwallner
In-Reply-To: <385B1ECFE7EA46A0B8AAED820CC6AD06@SlajePC>
Message-ID: <161227093001.23782.3680470331650899175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,?

An author's reply to the review announced below of the book announced below below can be downloaded from:?
http://www.zora.uzh.ch/48463/


Best wishes,?
Jan Houben


________________________________
From: Walter Slaje <slaje at T-ONLINE.DE>
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: publication on recent history of indology : Erich Frauwallner

Dear List,

a review in the German lanuguage of the book announced below can now be downloaded from:
https://www.zora.uzh.ch/35376/

Kindly,

WS

------------------------------
Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
D-99425 Weimar
(Germany)
www.indologie.uni-halle.de

Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor
studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum
non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam,
sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus
humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat.
Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII.


Publication announcement:

Jakob Stuchlik:
Der arische Ansatz: Erich Frauwallner und der Nationalsozialismus.
2009


Verlag der ?sterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften
Austrian Academy of Sciences Press

A-1011 Wien, Postgasse 7/4


ISBN 978-3-7001-6724-2
Print Edition
ISBN 978-3-7001-6875-1
Online Edition

Sitzungsberichte der phil.-hist. Klasse 797.Band
2009,? 202 Seiten, 22,5x15cm, broschiert
?? 42,?

(http://epub.oeaw.ac.at/6724-2, oben links: Online Edition).

My fast rendering of publisher's info:
The ?Aryan approach? was repeatedly propagated by Erich Frauwallner
at the intersection between Indology and society, where it apparently
was a matter of presenting the results of detailed Indological
research in the form of a compact and ?well-established? image
of India to a wider audience.
Especially in the Germanspeaking world and in Japan, Frauwallner has
gone down in the history of his discipline, above all in the area of
Buddhist Studies, as a scholarly authority.
This influential scholarly reputation has led to the identification
of the India-image presented by Frauwallner as identical with India
itself.
Since in its basic structure this picture is ?Aryanizing? and racist,
it also contributes to the impression of an ?unholy alliance? between
India and Nazi Germany.
As long as the Nazi context in Frauwallner?s activity as a scholar and
teacher is ignored, either by being passed over in silence or by being
made to appear harmless, as has been done for decades in the Germanspeaking
world, there can be no serious discussion concerning the degree to which
ideology encumbers his scholarly and scholarly-political oeuvre.
What exactly is being transmitted or inherited when Frauwallner is acclaimed
as an authority and his philology considered exemplary scholarly work?
In this book, the author examines the ?Aryan approach? not ?only? as a
repeatedly presented racist periodization of Indian philosophy, but also
as the conceptual key to the scholarly and scholarly-political
work, and indeed to the life of a staunch Nazi.
In the process, he exposes many facets of dubious dealings with the past,
both before and after 1945.

The importance of this book for the HISTORY of Indology is clear.

Here I would also like to emphasize the indologically most relevant points
raised by the author, Dr. Jakob Stuchlik:
- that Frauwallner's periodization was a step backward compared to an
earlier discussion by Goetz;
- and that his approach would have led to an "Ueberbewertung der diskursiven
Erkenntnis an der Objektebene seiner Wissenschaft".

In addition, a Vorwort by Ernst Steinkellner is available at:

steinkellner_vorwort_stuchlik_2009.pdf

-------------------------------------------- 
Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben,
Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ?
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP,
A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles,
75005 Paris -- France.


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From kellner at ASIA-EUROPE.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Fri Jul  1 06:36:56 2011
From: kellner at ASIA-EUROPE.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Kellner, Birgit)
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 11 08:36:56 +0200
Subject: AW: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit in China (was No incoming Sanskrit              students..)
In-Reply-To: <76009b7a11b5e.4e0dbb94@anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <161227092995.23782.3160908186411749402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

...  and there's also an obituary of Ji Xianlin by Haiyan Hu-von-Hin?ber (in German), published in JIABS 32/1-2 (2009[2010]), pp. 5-9. 

Best regards, 

Birgit Kellner
________________________________________
Von: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] im Auftrag von McComas Taylor [McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU]
Gesendet: Freitag, 1. Juli 2011 04:20
An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Betreff: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit in China (was No incoming Sanskrit students..)

On Sanskrit in China, colleagues might be interested in reading selections from the autobiography of China's premier Sanskritist, Prof. Ji Xianlin (1911-2009):

http://www.mldc.cn/sanskritweb/news/life_in_the_cattle_yard.pdf

http://www.mldc.cn/sanskritweb/news/mirror.pdf




On 30/06/11, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote:
It is of some interest to compare the current lamentable situation in regard to Sanskrit education in India with the
considerable flourishing of interest at major Chinese
universities, including Beijing University, Renmin
University, and Fudan University, among others. I have heard of introductory enrollments topping 60 in some cases.
And the interest of Chinese students of Sanskrit is
by no means limited to Buddhism, as one might have
predicted, but now embraces kaavya, epic, and philosophical
subjects. Although it is only tangentially related, as in
the West, one may note that China is in the midst
of a burgeoning yoga-craze as well.

Matthew T. Kapstein
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies
The University of Chicago Divinity School
Directeur d'?tudes
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris




From McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU  Fri Jul  1 02:20:36 2011
From: McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor)
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 11 12:20:36 +1000
Subject: Sanskrit in China (was No incoming Sanskrit students..)
In-Reply-To: <20110630064156.APC84374@mstore02.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227092986.23782.7684460390151510329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sanskrit in China, colleagues might be interested in reading selections from the autobiography of China's premier Sanskritist, Prof. Ji Xianlin (1911-2009):

http://www.mldc.cn/sanskritweb/news/life_in_the_cattle_yard.pdf

http://www.mldc.cn/sanskritweb/news/mirror.pdf




On 30/06/11, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote:
> It is of some interest to compare the current lamentable situation in regard to Sanskrit education in India with the 
> considerable flourishing of interest at major Chinese
> universities, including Beijing University, Renmin
> University, and Fudan University, among others. I have heard of introductory enrollments topping 60 in some cases.
> And the interest of Chinese students of Sanskrit is
> by no means limited to Buddhism, as one might have
> predicted, but now embraces kaavya, epic, and philosophical
> subjects. Although it is only tangentially related, as in
> the West, one may note that China is in the midst
> of a burgeoning yoga-craze as well.
> 
> Matthew T. Kapstein
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies
> The University of Chicago Divinity School
> Directeur d'?tudes
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
> 
> 


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From kengo.harimoto at UNI-HAMBURG.DE  Fri Jul  1 10:31:11 2011
From: kengo.harimoto at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Kengo Harimoto)
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 11 12:31:11 +0200
Subject: 2 positions in Hamburg
Message-ID: <161227092998.23782.1834911510400123042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

A DFG funded project in Hamburg, Sonderforschungsbereich 950,
Manuskriptkulturen in Asien, Afrika und Europa (Manuscript cultures in Asia, Africa and Europe), has two position openings that may be of interest for the members of this list.

See

http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/sfb/Jobs.html

or

http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/sfb/Jobs_e.html

for details. The two positions are:

B 04, "Dividing Texts: Conventions of visual text-organization in North Indian and Nepalese manuscripts up to ca. CE 1300"

and 

C 01, "A Twelfth-Century East Indian Monastic Library and its Fate"

B 04 is a 2/3-time position (intended primarily for Ph.D. candidates) and C 01 is a full-time (Post-doc) position.

-- 
Dr. Kengo Harimoto
kengo.harimoto at uni-hamburg.de
Nepalese-German Manuscript Cataloguing Project
Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets
Universit?t Hamburg - Asien-Afrika-Institut
Alsterterasse 1
20354 Hamburg
Germany
phone: +49-40-42838-6269




From gthomgt at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jul  1 17:53:24 2011
From: gthomgt at GMAIL.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 11 13:53:24 -0400
Subject: No incoming Sanskrit students at Andhra University :-(
In-Reply-To: <1309350885.55330.YahooMailClassic@web94813.mail.in2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227093004.23782.16579005638571213712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

Coincidentally, here is an angry account [ just yesterday!], by
the well-known Classicist Mary Beard, of the abrupt and shocking dismantling
of a Classics department in Britain [Univ. of London]:

http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2011/06/classics-at-royal-holloway-under-threat.html

We are all suffering [except for the ueberrich, of course!] from the
devastating consequences of global casino capitalism....

George

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 8:34 AM, Dipak Bhattacharya <
dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>   The problem with Sanskrit education in India is that its attraction lies
> mostly in the guarantee of jobs in schools. When Classical language is made
> an optional subject in the secondary stage most schools drop the posts of
> Teacher-in-Sanskrit to save money and the bell tolls for Sanskrit, when made
> compulsory the University Departments overflow. In Bengal at present we are
> seeing a tide following a long period of ebb. Let somebody howl and
> influence a big constituency in Andhra, they will see good days.
> Another fact. Till the early part of the twentieth century there was a
> natural attraction for Sanskrit. The University Sanskrit departments drew
> the best students till about the sixties in Bengal. The decline came after
> that.
> I often wonder if the same problems arose in the West too regarding Greek
> and Latin. I asked some friends. They were reticent or did not know. Will
> somebody kindly enlighten us?
> Best
> DB
>
>
> --- On *Wed, 29/6/11, Herman Tull <hwtull at MSN.COM>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Herman Tull <hwtull at MSN.COM>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] No incoming Sanskrit students at Andhra University
> :-(
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Date: Wednesday, 29 June, 2011, 12:10 PM
>
>
>   I was there as a student in the Wisconsin program 30+ years ago
> (actually in Telugu, but Sanskrit and Telugu were housed together).  It was
> a pretty lively place back then...
>
> Has there been a similar dwindling of Sanskrit students at other large
> Indian public universities?
>
> Herman Tull
>
>  *From:* Dominik Wujastyk <http://mc/compose?to=wujastyk at GMAIL.COM>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 29, 2011 4:01 AM
> *To:*
> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] No incoming Sanskrit students at Andhra University
> :-(
>
>
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/Sanskrit-goes-defunct-at-Andhra-University/articleshow/9032252.cms
>
>


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From somadevah at MAC.COM  Sat Jul  2 18:24:39 2011
From: somadevah at MAC.COM (Som Dev Vasudeva)
Date: Sat, 02 Jul 11 11:24:39 -0700
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Fwd:_[INDOLOGY]_Chanting_of_=C5=9Blokas_or_k_=C4=81vya?=
Message-ID: <161227093007.23782.15168933814562363358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

See also the following which include the commentaries, making them useful as "audio books".

Best,

Somdev Vasudeva

http://www.vedabhoomi.org/RaghuVamsha.html
http://www.vedabhoomi.org/KumaraSambhava.html
http://www.vedabhoomi.org/Kiratarjuneeyam.html
http://www.vedabhoomi.org/MeghaSandesha.html
http://www.vedabhoomi.org/SriAdiSankaracharyaBhasya.html


> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Dominik Wujastyk
> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 10:36 AM
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Chanting of ?lokas or k?vya
>  
> Dear colleagues, 
> 
> A student recently asked me if I could recommend some clear, beautiful, accurate recitation of Sanskrit ?lokas or other verses or even connected prose.  He has about two years Sanskrit under his belt, but hasn't got the language strongly in his ears yet.
> 
> Can you recommend any easily-available recordings, videos, or other media (free?) that would fit the bill?
> 
> Many thanks
> Dominik
> !SIG:4e0c8f17198926551521308!




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From sucindram_omlr at REDIFFMAIL.COM  Sun Jul  3 08:09:00 2011
From: sucindram_omlr at REDIFFMAIL.COM (Anand Dilip)
Date: Sun, 03 Jul 11 08:09:00 +0000
Subject: bhagavad geeta
Message-ID: <161227093011.23782.12869046994874012936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Scholars,&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Do anyone know about the &nbsp;Javanese&nbsp;translation of the Bhagavad geeta?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Dr.Anand Dilip Raj


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From gerard.fussman at COLLEGE-DE-FRANCE.FR  Mon Jul  4 09:53:12 2011
From: gerard.fussman at COLLEGE-DE-FRANCE.FR (Gerard Fussman)
Date: Mon, 04 Jul 11 11:53:12 +0200
Subject: announcement
Message-ID: <161227093019.23782.12817605897731009499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Fom. G?rard Fussman, College de France, Paris;



SEECHAC                                                               IsIAO  

                                                                                          

       7, Avenue V?lasquez                                

    75008 PARIS - France                                                                                         Via Ulisse Aldrovandi, 16

Tel. : 00 33 (0)1 53 96 21 50                                                                                   00197 Roma

 

 

ROUND TABLE 

at IsIAO

 

Organized and Chaired by Prof. Anna Maria Quagliotti (Napoli)

Moderator: Prof. Kuo Liying (Paris)

Wednesday, October 12, 2011

 

 

Avalokitesvara in India and Central Asia

 

9h30:  Anna Maria Quagliotti (Napoli), Presentation.

 

9h40: G?rard Fussman (Paris), The beginnings of the  iconography of Avalokitesvara in India.

 

10 h30: Monika Zin (M?nchen and Berlin), Avalokitesvara in India.

 

11 h: Anne Vergati (Paris), The cult.and iconography of Red Avalokitesvara in Nepal.

 

11h 30: Dorothy Wong (Charlottesville), Avalokitesvara in Central Asia and China.

 

For more information: contact at seechac.org

 

 


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From gthomgt at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jul  4 18:22:21 2011
From: gthomgt at GMAIL.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 04 Jul 11 14:22:21 -0400
Subject: Kiparsky article
Message-ID: <161227093023.23782.4499996103464822995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

I would be most grateful if one of you might be able to help me to
gain access to the following article:

Paul Kiparsky: "The Vedic Injunctive: Historical and Synchronic
Implications," 2005 volume of the *Yearbook of South Asian Languages
and Linguistics.*

I do not have access to this yearbook and the price to private payer
for this 15 page paper is USA $40.00!

Thank you in advance,

George Thompson




From gthomgt at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jul  4 18:43:15 2011
From: gthomgt at GMAIL.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 04 Jul 11 14:43:15 -0400
Subject: Kiparsky article
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zta-_vVCor+Yecs=6C6yLMOC7SVRV+JsuTMKHsSSP8neQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093026.23782.8140498902487055857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

Two nimble colleagues have pointed out that this and other articles of
Kiparsky are readily available at his website:

http://www.stanford.edu/~kiparsky/

I thank them both very much.

Best wishes to all,

George Thompson

On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 2:22 PM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> I would be most grateful if one of you might be able to help me to
> gain access to the following article:
>
> Paul Kiparsky: "The Vedic Injunctive: Historical and Synchronic
> Implications," 2005 volume of the *Yearbook of South Asian Languages
> and Linguistics.*
>
> I do not have access to this yearbook and the price to private payer
> for this 15 page paper is USA $40.00!
>
> Thank you in advance,
>
> George Thompson
>




From andreaacri at MAC.COM  Mon Jul  4 07:01:57 2011
From: andreaacri at MAC.COM (Andrea Acri)
Date: Mon, 04 Jul 11 17:01:57 +1000
Subject: bhagavad geeta
In-Reply-To: <20110703080900.17544.qmail@f5mail-224-166.rediffmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093015.23782.4601482597867260183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Raj,

Probably you mean the Old Javanese version (actually an original rendering rather than a translation). Below here I paste the details of the published English translation and edition, both by Jan Gonda.

Jan Gonda 1935, ?The Javanese version of the Bhagavadg?t??, Tijdschrift voor Indische Taal-, Land- en Volkenkunde 75, pp. 36?82.

Jan Gonda 1936, Het Oudjavaansche Bhismaparwa. Bandoeng: A.C. Nix and Co.

Regards,

A.Acri 



On 03 Jul, 2011,at 06:09 PM, Anand Dilip <sucindram_omlr at REDIFFMAIL.COM> wrote:

> Dear Scholars, 
>                              Do anyone know about the  Javanese translation of the Bhagavad geeta?
>                                                                                       Dr.Anand Dilip Raj
> 
> 
> Treat yourself at a restaurant, spa, resort and much more with Rediff Deal ho jaye!


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From heike.moser at UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE  Tue Jul  5 17:41:42 2011
From: heike.moser at UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (Heike Moser)
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 11 19:41:42 +0200
Subject: Kutiyattam - 10 Years after the UNESCO Declaration
Message-ID: <161227093029.23782.15472653562855961668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the list,

the newsletter about Kerala?s traditional Sanskrit theatre titled
"Kutiyattam - 10 Years after the UNESCO Declaration" is now published
online (Indian Folklife 38). All articles can be downloaded (open source):
https://indianfolklore.org/journals/index.php/IFL/issue/view/109/showToc

Best regards from Tuebingen,
Heike Moser


-------------------

Dr. Heike Moser
Scientific Coordinator (AOI) & Assistant Professor (Indology)
Eberhard Karls Universit?t Tuebingen
Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies (AOI)
Dept. of Indology and Comparative Religion
Gartenstr. 19 ? 72074 Tuebingen ? Germany
Phone +49 7071 29-74005 ? Mobile +49 176 20030066 ?  Fax +49 7071 29-2675
heike.moser at uni-tuebingen.de

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/fakultaeten/philosophische-fakultaet/fachbereic
he/aoi/indologie-vgl-religionswissenschaft/mitarbeiter/heike-moser.html




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Jul  6 01:21:59 2011
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen)
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 11 21:21:59 -0400
Subject: No incoming Sanskrit students at Andhra University :-(
Message-ID: <161227093032.23782.7541285481301777718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Since we seem to segueing into the history of Latin, I'll offer an interesting tidbit rather off the main subject.  Recently I discovered a tape and had it transferred to CD of my father interviewing my maternal grandmother about her family's history.  She said that as a young girl in the country outside of Charlotte, North Carolina she had attended a proprietorial school run by the local Presbyterian minister.  The minister taught the Latin classes himself but was frequently called away on pastoral duties, with the result the Latin training was spotty.  For college she attended Queen's College (now Queen's University) in Charlotte, but because she didn't have enough Latin she was graduated with a certificate rather than a diploma and got no tassel on her mortarboard.  I gather Queen's was not just a finishing school (or perhaps, rather, finishing schools were more demanding than a lot of colleges nowadays).  She had a semester of Anglo-Saxon.

While I'm at it, I'll mention that the part of West Virginia my father's people came from was settled by white Americans considerably later than various parts further West, because of its rough and dissected terrain. It was more or less frontier conditions well into the 19th century.  A book of county history mentioned that the first ordination of a minister of religion in the county, in the 1830s, was of a Presbyterian minister, who first had to defend a theological thesis in public debate - in Latin.

And then there is the classic old monologue from the review Beyond the Fringe, where Peter Cook explains why he had to become a miner rather than a judge because he didn't have the Latin.  See several versions thereof on YouTube:
< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNtkLAS_5dU >
< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofUZNynYXzM&feature=related >
< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grg5tULy0tY&feature=related >.

O tempora, o mores.


Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator
South Asia Team
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.W.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
USA
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.








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From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Jul  6 02:05:40 2011
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen)
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 11 22:05:40 -0400
Subject: No incoming Sanskrit students at Andhra University :-(
Message-ID: <161227093040.23782.14271893307700444497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dipak,
You say, "Allen's information confirms that this is true of Latin too. This also explains why in India one finds few problems in finding material for Latin study, but has to do much more labour, often unsuccessful, for Homeric or Classical Greek studies. Studying Biblical Greek is less of a problem!"
When you say "finding material," do you mean finding textbooks to teach oneself, or courses given in academic institutions?
By the way, does anyone know about the extent of offering Latin and Greek in Indian institutions in the colonial period, for the sake of the IAS exams, or for that matter other exams?  I looked into this once but couldn't find much.  I suppose among other things one would have to look at the course catalogs of the colleges and universities.

Allen
Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator
South Asia Team
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.W.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
USA
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.








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From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Jul  6 02:15:36 2011
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen)
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 11 22:15:36 -0400
Subject: No incoming Sanskrit students at Andhra University :-(
Message-ID: <161227093044.23782.17086316475420196689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Shelly Pollock and I had some exchanges on the decline of Indian classical or philological studies, and also on the financing of Sanskrit studies in the colonial and early post-colonial period.  One speculation I made, and it is nothing but a speculation, was whether the scholarship of Sanskrit and for that matter other premodern languages was de facto financed in part by incomes from lands the scholars inherited, which would have mostly ceased with the abolition of zamindari in the 1950s.  If so, this might have made bright boys, and their families, more willing than in more recent decades to commit to the study and teaching of Sanskrit etc.,  because their salaries would not have been their whole incomes.

Another economic factor was that the best scholars could publish one or more profitable books a year in the form of a text, notes, and commentary on the book set for that year's exams.  With the greater number of students in Sanskrit, Prakrit, etc. back then this may have brought in substantial royalties.

Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator
South Asia Team
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.W.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
USA
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.




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From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jul  6 01:53:47 2011
From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 11 07:23:47 +0530
Subject: No incoming Sanskrit students at Andhra University :-(
In-Reply-To: <1D525027B29706438707F336D75A279F1AB34F4EA7@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV>
Message-ID: <161227093036.23782.10613412413993901441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



6.7.2011

Dear Colleagues,

Allen?s information is interesting. One of the frequent
objections raised in India against the study of Sanskrit has been that it is a
priests? language. It is not that there is not even an inkling of truth in the
perception. For, howsoever we might claim philological interest as the guiding
motive for Classical studies, this is true only in case of a few scholars in
India. The study of Sanskrit has been sustained mainly by religious interest. Had
there been no organization as the one built up by Pandit Nanaji Kale, many
researches on ritual, here and in the West, could not have been carried on in the scale they have
been. ?

Allen?s information confirms that this is true of Latin too.
This also explains why in India one finds few problems in finding material for
Latin study, but has to do much more labour, often unsuccessful, for Homeric or
Classical Greek studies. 

Studying Biblical Greek is less of a problem! 

Tells of something commonly shared?

Best

DB



--- On Wed, 6/7/11, Thrasher, Allen <athr at LOC.GOV> wrote:

From: Thrasher, Allen <athr at LOC.GOV>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] No incoming Sanskrit students at Andhra University :-(
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Date: Wednesday, 6 July, 2011, 1:21 AM

Since we seem to segueing into the history of Latin, I'll offer an interesting tidbit rather off the main subject.? Recently I discovered a tape and had it transferred to CD of my father interviewing my maternal grandmother about her family's history.? She said that as a young girl in the country outside of Charlotte, North Carolina she had attended a proprietorial school run by the local Presbyterian minister.? The minister taught the Latin classes himself but was frequently called away on pastoral duties, with the result the Latin training was spotty.? For college she attended Queen's College (now Queen's University) in Charlotte, but because she didn't have enough Latin she was graduated with a certificate rather than a diploma and got no tassel on her mortarboard.? I gather Queen's was not just a finishing school (or perhaps, rather, finishing schools were more demanding than a lot of colleges nowadays).? She had a semester of Anglo-Saxon.
 ?While I'm at it, I'll mention that the part of West Virginia my father's people came from was settled by white Americans considerably later than various parts further West, because of its rough and dissected terrain. It was more or less frontier conditions well into the 19th century. ?A book of county history mentioned that the first ordination of a minister of religion in the county, in the 1830s, was of a Presbyterian minister, who first had to defend a theological thesis in public debate - in Latin. ?And then there is the classic old monologue from the review Beyond the Fringe, where Peter Cook explains why he had to become a miner rather than a judge because he didn't have the Latin.? See several versions thereof on YouTube:< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNtkLAS_5dU >< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofUZNynYXzM&feature=related >< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grg5tULy0tY&feature=related >. ?O tempora, o mores. ? ?Allen ?Allen W.
 Thrasher, Ph.D.Senior Reference Librarian and Team CoordinatorSouth Asia TeamAsian DivisionLibrary of Congress101 Independence Ave., S.W.Washington, DC 20540-4810USAtel. 202-707-3732fax 202-707-1724The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. ? ? ? ? ? ?


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From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jul  6 04:54:47 2011
From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 11 10:24:47 +0530
Subject: No incoming Sanskrit students at Andhra University :-(
In-Reply-To: <1D525027B29706438707F336D75A279F1AB34F4EAE@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV>
Message-ID: <161227093049.23782.2267519062918876210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



Dear Allen,

Since I am
not aware of the official position in the Universities at present I can speak
only from personal experience.

So long as one
was in the training Institute/process (Missionary School/College or generous individual
teachers; regular teaching in the Universities was not known to me), there was
no problem. The problem arose when pursuing the study. I could purchase two
good Latin Dictionaries but none supplied me with one of Classical/Homeric
Greek. 

It required
much effort and prayer to xerox a dictionary of Biblical Greek. 

To prevent misconception
I must add one more information. When I left the University, it did not become
difficult for me to purchase reader-cum-grammars like Pharr?s HG or Wright?s Grammar
of the Gothic language in Calcutta. Later I could also procure copies of comparative
linguistic studies like the ones by Buck or Sturtevant (Hittite). Publications
by Faber and Faber too are available in the market. It is the dictionaries of
some rare (in India) languages that are difficult to procure.

I hope the
position is clear.

Best 

DB

?



--- On Wed, 6/7/11, Thrasher, Allen <athr at LOC.GOV> wrote:

From: Thrasher, Allen <athr at LOC.GOV>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] No incoming Sanskrit students at Andhra University :-(
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Date: Wednesday, 6 July, 2011, 2:05 AM

Dipak,You say, "Allen?s information confirms that this is true of Latin too. This also explains why in India one finds few problems in finding material for Latin study, but has to do much more labour, often unsuccessful, for Homeric or Classical Greek studies. Studying Biblical Greek is less of a problem!"When you say "finding material," do you mean finding textbooks to teach oneself, or courses given in academic institutions?By the way, does anyone know about the extent of offering Latin and Greek in Indian institutions in the colonial period, for the sake of the IAS exams, or for that matter other exams?? I looked into this once but couldn't find much.? I suppose among other things one would have to look at the course catalogs of the colleges and universities. ?AllenAllen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.Senior Reference Librarian and Team CoordinatorSouth Asia TeamAsian DivisionLibrary of Congress101 Independence Ave., S.W.Washington, DC 20540-4810USAtel.
 202-707-3732fax 202-707-1724The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. ? ? ? ? ? ?


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From info at BARKHUIS.NL  Wed Jul  6 10:00:08 2011
From: info at BARKHUIS.NL (Roelf Barkhuis)
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 11 12:00:08 +0200
Subject: New issue of eJIM published
Message-ID: <161227093053.23782.15844754538308413106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,

 

eJIM, the free eJournal of Indian Medicine, has just published its latest
issue at  <http://bjournals.ub.rug.nl/ejim> http://bjournals.ub.rug.nl/ejim.
We invite you to review the Table of Contents herebelow and then visit our
website to review articles and items of interest.

 

eJIM currently has over 800 registered readers. 

 

Its counterpart aBIM, a Bibliography of Indian Medicine, has over 300
visitors per day. To search aBIM, visit eJIM and click on GO TO ABIM at the
right side of the menu bar.

 

Thank you for the continuing interest in our work,

 

Roelf Barkhuis

Publisher of eJIM

 <mailto:info at barkhuis.nl> info at barkhuis.nl

 

---

 

eJIM - eJournal of Indian Medicine

Vol 4, No 1 (2011)

Table of Contents

 <http://bjournals.ub.rug.nl/ejim/issue/view/36>
http://bjournals.ub.rug.nl/ejim/issue/view/36

 

Articles:

 

Decoction of  Morinda Citrifolia  L. Leaves as a Herbal Medicine.

Experimental Pharmacology - Two Synergistic Combination Effects for One
Therapy (1-10)

      Andreanus A. Soemardji, Joseph I. Sigit

 

Memoirs of Vaidyas. The Lives and Practices of Traditional Medical Doctors
in Kerala, India (5) (11-33)

      Tsutomu Yamashita,      P. Ram Manohar

 



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From dimitrov at STAFF.UNI-MARBURG.DE  Wed Jul  6 18:04:06 2011
From: dimitrov at STAFF.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Dragomir Dimitrov)
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 11 14:04:06 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?NEW_BOOK:______________=C5=9Aabd=C4=81la=E1=B9=83k=C4=81rado=E1=B9=A3avibh=C4=81ga?=
Message-ID: <161227093056.23782.3797548619332349762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

NEW BOOK ANNOUNCEMENT

?abd?la?k?rado?avibh?ga
Die Unterscheidung der Lautfiguren und der Fehler

Kritische Ausgabe des dritten Kapitels von Da??ins Poetik K?vy?dar?a und 
der tibetischen ?bertragung S?an ?ag me lo? samt dem Sanskrit-Kommentar 
des Ratna?r?j??na, dem tibetischen Kommentar des Dpa? Blo gros brtan pa 
und einer deutschen ?bersetzung des Sanskrit-Grundtextes

Teil 1: Einleitung, ?berlieferung, Textausgabe, ?bersetzung
Teil 2: Kommentare, philologische Bemerkungen, Faksimiles, Anh?nge, 
Konkordanzen und Indizes

Von Dragomir Dimitrov

Wiesbaden 2011
Harrassowitz Verlag
Ver?ffentlichungen der Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung, Monographien 2
Hardcover, xii, 278 pp.; vi, 646 pp.
ISBN: 978-3-447-06495-8
Price: EUR 178,00 (Set)


For more details please see here:
http://www.dragomir-dimitrov.net/bookstall.html
http://www.indologica.de/drupal/?q=node/1627
http://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/category_441.ahtml


________________________________________

   Dr. Dragomir Dimitrov
   Indologie und Tibetologie
   Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
   Deutschhausstr. 12
   D-35032 Marburg
   Germany

   Tel.: +49 6421 282 4640 , +1 610 400 5725
   E-mail: dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de
   http://www.uni-marburg.de/indologie
________________________________________




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Jul  6 18:50:23 2011
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen)
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 11 14:50:23 -0400
Subject: FW: Publishing in India Today: 19,000 Publishers, 90,000 Titles,              Many Opportunities
Message-ID: <161227093059.23782.17346480378231516635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Forwarded to me by a Library colleague.  May be of some interest.

Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Asian Division, Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540-4810
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.





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International publishing news & opinion at publishingperspectives.com


07/06/2011




Feature Story / India:

Publishing in India Today: 19,000 Publishers, 90,000 Titles, Many Opportunities<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=xdfel9cab&et=1106412345361&s=2321&e=001LMhML1U39FQMbbgMrefxx_n0lSO7SEgKKnwc9hhtWqYgdzVZdcrB_9xvT5fl_1t2YzmmYd1OxIjSe5VlwRmc_H6RGuYA8WdunHbv-PLyb3XOuZHHrXrG4wqF2JLpWCtEMXEDPgD6Soi3hy7JV8A0KWZX7IFyfk2yHxGsKZVMHKkItNXhRzWY2cCSlSyNi1xVyfieIEgSg_-imXPr5a-WlMt2APV6zDqz>

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From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Jul  6 19:11:01 2011
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen)
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 11 15:11:01 -0400
Subject: promptness of Hindu funerals
Message-ID: <161227093063.23782.9212508212817702557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A colleague just told me that another colleague, a Hindu from India, died last Saturday morning and the funeral was the afternoon of the same day.  It was a service with the deceased in a coffin, not the cremation. This raises some questions.

1.  I was a long time ago told that in Indian civil law (or at least in Pune, where issue came up) the body must be disposed of, whether by cremation or burial, within 24 hours.  But on the other hand I seem to recall the large-scale funerals of public figures taking place several days after their deaths.  I can see that in a hot country without much refrigeration or tradition of embalming the State might want to mandate quick funerals for reasons of public health, and the family for reasons of smell.  I have read accounts of the Second World War in the South Pacific that in the islands those killed would start stinking and visibly decaying within hours of death.  In any case, does anyone know if there is such a civil law in India?

2.  Is there anything in dharmasastra about how quickly cremations must follow death?

3.  I gather that in general Islamic law demands a funeral within 24 hours.  Is this correct?

4. I wonder if there is anywhere expressed the concern that one should watch with the body after apparent death to make sure the person is really dead and not comatose.  There are those stories in Sanskrit of people waking up on the funeral pyre.

Allen


Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator
South Asia Team
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.W.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
USA
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.




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From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Jul  6 20:30:58 2011
From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU)
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 11 15:30:58 -0500
Subject: promptness of Hindu funerals
In-Reply-To: <1D525027B29706438707F336D75A279F1AB34F4EBF@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV>
Message-ID: <161227093066.23782.16975019654594550642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It may be worth recalling in this regard that, 
after the massacre of the Nepalese royal family
some years ago, one of the complaints that was
much aired was that the requirement of swift cremation
precluded the possibility of proper autopsies. The
physical evidence that might have corroborated or
called into question the narratives of the event
was thereby irrevocably lost. 

Matthew T. Kapstein
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies
The University of Chicago Divinity School
Directeur d'?tudes
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris




From athr at LOC.GOV  Thu Jul  7 21:44:47 2011
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 11 17:44:47 -0400
Subject: promptness of Hindu funerals
In-Reply-To: <20110706153058.API29851@mstore02.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227093068.23782.11905682775896337720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Matthew,

Thanks for the tip.  I consulted Modi's Medical Jurisprudence and Toxicology and D. K. Ganguly's book of the same title (both quite fascinating), and there was no mention of legal or customary requirements for a quick funeral that would have to be overriden to perform post-mortems and autopsies in the case of homicides and suicides, which I suspect means that if there is a civil law requirement it was purely municipal for Pune.

Allen


-----Original Message-----
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu [mailto:mkapstei at uchicago.edu] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 4:31 PM
To: Thrasher, Allen; INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] promptness of Hindu funerals


It may be worth recalling in this regard that, after the massacre of the Nepalese royal family some years ago, one of the complaints that was much aired was that the requirement of swift cremation precluded the possibility of proper autopsies. The physical evidence that might have corroborated or called into question the narratives of the event was thereby irrevocably lost. 

Matthew T. Kapstein
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris




From kellner at ASIA-EUROPE.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Fri Jul  8 15:25:18 2011
From: kellner at ASIA-EUROPE.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 11 17:25:18 +0200
Subject: Publication announcement: Religion and Lo gic in Buddhist              Philosophical Analysis (Proceed ings of Fourth International              Dharmak=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=ABrti?= Confe rence)
Message-ID: <161227093071.23782.3949849692032660194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,

it is my great pleasure to announce that the proceedings of the Fourth 
International Dharmak?rti Conference just appeared in print (and I 
humbly apologize for cross-posting):

Krasser, Helmut; Lasic, Horst; Franco, Eli; Kellner, Birgit (eds.): 
Religion and Logic in Buddhist Philosophical Analysis. Proceedings of 
the Fourth International Dharmakirti Conference Vienna, August 23-27, 
2005. Vienna 2011: Austrian Academy of Sciences Press (Beitr?ge zur 
Kultur- und Geistesgeschichte Asiens 69). ISBN13: 978-3-7001-7000-6. (69 
EUR).

Copies can be ordered online: 
http://verlag.oeaw.ac.at/products/Sachgebiete/Asienforschung/Religion-and-Logic-in-Buddhist-Philosophical-Analysis.html

The volume contains 36 essays on the Buddhist logical and 
epistemological tradition in India and Tibet, addressing its cultural, 
philosophical and religious significance. A number of contributions 
report on the remarkable (and very important) newly discovered Sanskrit 
texts by Dharmak?rti and his followers that have become available in 
recent years; the critical reception of Dharmak?rti's work in 
non-Buddhist traditions is likewise dealt with in several essays. And 
last, but most certainly not least, the volume also contains Ernst 
Steinkellner's opening speech at the conference: "News from the 
manuscript department".


List of contributions:

Piotr Balcerowicz, Dharmak?rti?s criticism of the Jaina doctrine of 
multiplexity of reality (anek?ntav?da)

Junjie Chu, Sanskrit fragments of Dharmak?rti?s Sant?n?ntarasiddhi

Vincent Eltschinger, Studies on Dharmak?rti?s religious philosophy (3): 
Compassion and its role in the general structure of PV 2 43

Koji Ezaki, Can we say that everything is ineffable? Udayana?s 
refutation of the theory of apoha

Eli Franco, Perception of yogis ? Some epistemological and metaphysical 
considerations

Toru Funayama, Kamala??la?s view on yogic perception and the bodhisattva 
paths

Brendan S. Gillon, Dharmak?rti on inference from effect. A discussion of 
verse 12 and the Svav?tti of the Sv?rth?num?na chapter of the 
Pram??av?rttika

Klaus Glashoff, Problems of transcribing avin?bh?va into predicate logic

Keijin Hayashi, Praj??karagupta?s interpretation of mental perception

Yoshichika Honda, Bhoja and Dharmak?rti

Pascale Hugon, Phya pa Chos kyi seng ge?s views on perception

Masahiro Inami, Nondual cognition

Hisataka Ishida, On the classification of any?poha

Takashi Iwata, Compassion in Buddhist logic ? Dharmak?rti?s view of 
compassion as interpreted by Praj??karagupta

Ky? Kan?, Dichotomy, antarvy?pti, and d????nta

Kei Kataoka, Manu and the Buddha for Kum?rila and Dharmak?rti

Shoryu Katsura, From Abhidharma to Dharmak?rti ? With a special 
reference to the concept  of svabh?va

Yohei Kawajiri, A critique of the Buddhist theory of adhyavas?ya in the 
Pratyabhij?? school

Birgit Kellner, Dharmak?rti?s criticism of external realism and the 
sliding scale of analysis

Hisayasu Kobayashi, On the development of the argument to prove 
vij?aptim?trat?

Taiken Kyuma, On the (im)perceptibility of external objects in 
Dharmak?rti?s epistemology

Lawrence McCrea, Praj??karagupta on the pram??as and their objects

Shinya Moriyama, pram??apari?uddhasakalatattvaj?a, sarvaj?a and 
sarvasarvaj?a

Yasutaka Muroya, Bh?sarvaj?a?s Interpretation of bh?va eva n??a? and a 
related chronological problem

Hiroshi Nemoto, The proof of impermanence in the dGe lugs pa?s pram??a 
theory

Miyako Notake, The concept of samay?bhoga in the refutation of the 
existence of universals

Hideyo Ogawa, On the term anupalabdhi

Masamichi Sakai, ??kyabuddhi and Dharmottara on the inference of 
momentariness based on  the absence of external causes of destruction

Kiyokuni Shiga, antarvy?pti and bahirvy?pti re-examined

John Taber, Did Dharmak?rti think the Buddha had desires?

Tom J.F. Tillemans, Dign?ga, Bh?viveka and Dharmak?rti on apoha

Toshikazu Watanabe, Dharmak?rti?s intention to quote Pram??asamuccaya 
III 12

Jeson Woo, V?caspatimi?ra and J??na?r?mitra on the object of yogipratyak?a

Zhihua Yao, Non-cognition and the third pram??a

Chizuko Yoshimizu, What makes all the produced impermanent? Proof of 
impermanence and  theory of causality

-----------------------


With best regards,

Birgit Kellner
--------

Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Chair in Buddhist Studies
Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context - Shifting 
Asymmetries in Cultural Flows"
University of Heidelberg
Karl Jaspers Centre
Vossstra?e 2, Building 4400
D-69115 Heidelberg
Phone: +49(0)6221 - 54 4301
Fax: +49(0)6221 - 54 4012
http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/en/home.html




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Jul  8 23:29:12 2011
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen)
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 11 19:29:12 -0400
Subject: 'adolescence' in traditional India
Message-ID: <161227093074.23782.737769296042871042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Has anyone done a study of the effect on the presence, absence, or different nature of adolescence (add scare quotes to last word?) in traditional India, taking into account that until recently most people there were married at or before puberty and took up marital sexual life at puberty or shortly after?  I would think the convenient availability of a socially and morally approved sexual outlet at home would have profound effects in differentiating that period of life from Western Europe and its extensions, where for centuries few people of either sex except maybe royalty and aristocracy got married before their twenties, and usually in the second half thereof for men.  Granted that at least in Hindu homes the young couple have to play at ignoring each other, and there is mother-in-law's jealousy, but still the whole family including mother-in-law wants grandchildren and therefore presumably the acts that produce them.  Maybe there's some classical treatment of this but I've never come across it.  On the other hand, Gandhi certainly seems to have had an adolescence in spite of having a wife, and the subhasitas complain about the follies of young men.

Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator
South Asia Team
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.W.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
USA
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.




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From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU  Sat Jul  9 15:34:15 2011
From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU)
Date: Sat, 09 Jul 11 10:34:15 -0500
Subject: 'adolescence' in traditional India
In-Reply-To: <1D525027B29706438707F336D75A279F1AB34F4EFC@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV>
Message-ID: <161227093077.23782.10796021761727264715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Allen,

Anything in Meyer's Sexual Life in Ancient India? I haven't
looked at it in years and don't recall if or how he
deals with this.

There is, I believe, some anthropological literature
on the very category of "adolescence," which, as you
suggest, seems a construct due to delayed marriage in
industrial and post-industrial societies. I don't
have any particular references for you, but this may
be a direction worth pursuing.

Matthew 

Matthew T. Kapstein
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies
The University of Chicago Divinity School
Directeur d'?tudes
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris




From jkirk at SPRO.NET  Sat Jul  9 20:12:08 2011
From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick)
Date: Sat, 09 Jul 11 14:12:08 -0600
Subject: 'adolescence' in traditional India
In-Reply-To: <20110709103415.APL09923@mstore02.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227093083.23782.3277401796931933873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

If I may: the famous anthropologist of the nineteen-forties up
until the eighties when he died-- Verrier Elwin--made a huge
point about the tribals that he studied, particularly the Muria:
that they observed a sort of cultural adolescence where the young
people lived in their own dormitories and experimented
with/learned about sexuality, as well as the other norms of their
culture. He also noticed tribal differences--the Muria tended to
be non-possessive and therefore shed and took up with sexual
partners freely, whereas one of the other tribes (the Saoras)
observed fidelity to the partner with whom they set up household
and had children. As I recall, the Gonds, with whom he lived off
and on for years, did not have youth dormitories but he reported
tham as being easy about sexual relations. The latter became a
serious problem for Elwin when his Gond wife, Kosi, had an affair
with someone during one of his many absences and got pregnant by
her lover. The saga ended with Elwin divorcing, for various
reasons I needn't relate here.  

Overall, Elwin made points in his many publications (both
professional and journalistic) about how the tribals were more
advanced than the civilised people of his time (Indian and
British) in that women were not downtrodden but free to
participate fully in tribal culture and to express their views.
This was one of his main points, reiterated over his entire
lifetime.  He viewed tribals as observing a period of life,
adolescence or youth culture, that was not otherwise typical of
India, where women were married off early and sent after puberty
to their inlaws.  

The best study of Elwin -- his problems with and support from
government, with other anthropologists and public opinion, and
his contributions to Indian ethnology -- is found in: 
Guha, Ramachandra. _Savaging the Civilized : Verrier Elwin, His
Tribals, and India_.
U Chicago P., 1999. Epilogue, Appendices, Acknowledgements,
Notes, Index. 398pp. Not a first-rate Index, but it includes a
list of Elwin's publications. The author did wide research into
various holdings in UK and in India of Elwin's private and
published writings, as well as interviews with people who had
known him. 

Best wishes,
Joanna Kirkpatrick

-----Original Message-----
From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of
mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 9:34 AM
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] 'adolescence' in traditional India

Allen,

Anything in Meyer's Sexual Life in Ancient India? I haven't
looked at it in years and don't recall if or how he deals with
this.

There is, I believe, some anthropological literature on the very
category of "adolescence," which, as you suggest, seems a
construct due to delayed marriage in industrial and
post-industrial societies. I don't have any particular references
for you, but this may be a direction worth pursuing.

Matthew 

Matthew T. Kapstein
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of
Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des
Hautes Etudes, Paris




From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jul  9 15:58:30 2011
From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky)
Date: Sat, 09 Jul 11 17:58:30 +0200
Subject: 'adolescence' in traditional India
In-Reply-To: <1D525027B29706438707F336D75A279F1AB34F4EFC@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV>
Message-ID: <161227093080.23782.13666483289174169926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This has some relevant material:

Deshpande, Kamalabai
The child in ancient India
S.N.D.T. Women's College, Poona, 1936

It's a dissertation from Prague directed by Winternitz.  BTW I've been told the author was one of the first women from India to have gotten a Ph.D. in Europe.

Paul



On Jul 9, 2011, at 1:29 AM, Thrasher, Allen wrote:

> Has anyone done a study of the effect on the presence, absence, or different nature of adolescence (add scare quotes to last word?) in traditional India, taking into account that until recently most people there were married at or before puberty and took up marital sexual life at puberty or shortly after?  I would think the convenient availability of a socially and morally approved sexual outlet at home would have profound effects in differentiating that period of life from Western Europe and its extensions, where for centuries few people of either sex except maybe royalty and aristocracy got married before their twenties, and usually in the second half thereof for men.  Granted that at least in Hindu homes the young couple have to play at ignoring each other, and there is mother-in-law's jealousy, but still the whole family including mother-in-law wants grandchildren and therefore presumably the acts that produce them.  Maybe there's some classical treatment of this but I've never come across it.  On the other hand, Gandhi certainly seems to have had an adolescence in spite of having a wife, and the subhasitas complain about the follies of young men. 
>  
> Allen
>  
> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
> Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator
> South Asia Team
> Asian Division
> Library of Congress
> 101 Independence Ave., S.W.
> Washington, DC 20540-4810
> USA
> tel. 202-707-3732
> fax 202-707-1724
> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.
>  
>  




From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jul 10 01:32:02 2011
From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 11 07:02:02 +0530
Subject: Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] 'adolescence' in traditional India
Message-ID: <161227093086.23782.4848492408515011754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



--- On Sun, 10/7/11, Dipak Bhattacharya <dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dipak Bhattacharya <dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] 'adolescence' in traditional India
To: "AllenThrasher" <athr at LOC.GOV>
Date: Sunday, 10 July, 2011, 1:31 AM

Dear Allen,
I do not know of any Indian studies on adolescence in traditional India but you will find glimpses of the effect of the Indian family environment on the adolescent male (seconadarily female too) in the Bengali novel Pratham prahar (mid-fifties) by Ramapada Chowdhury which I read as an adolescent. myself. I do not know of any English translation. There are many stories of adolescent love in Bengali literature. Two filmed versions Balika badhu (Adolescent bride) and Shriman Prithviraj (Master Prithviraj), both directed by Tarun Majumdar, became popular all over India and shown in dubbed versions in non-Bengali languages. 
Best
DB

? 
--- On Fri, 8/7/11, Thrasher, Allen <athr at LOC.GOV>
 wrote:

From: Thrasher, Allen <athr at LOC.GOV>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'adolescence' in traditional India
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Date: Friday, 8 July, 2011, 11:29 PM

Has anyone done a study of the effect on the presence, absence, or different nature of adolescence (add scare quotes to last word?) in traditional India, taking into account that until recently most people there were married at or before puberty and took up marital sexual life at puberty or shortly after?? I would think the convenient availability of a socially and morally approved sexual outlet at home would have profound effects in differentiating that period of life from Western Europe and its extensions, where for centuries few people of either sex except maybe royalty and aristocracy got married before their twenties, and usually in the second half thereof for men.? Granted that at least in Hindu homes the young couple have to play at ignoring each other, and there is mother-in-law's jealousy, but still the whole family including mother-in-law wants
 grandchildren and therefore presumably the acts that produce them.? Maybe there's some classical treatment of this but I've never come across it.? On the other hand, Gandhi certainly seems to have had an adolescence in spite of having a wife, and the subhasitas complain about the follies of young men.?  ?Allen ?Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.Senior Reference Librarian and Team CoordinatorSouth Asia TeamAsian DivisionLibrary of Congress101 Independence Ave., S.W.Washington, DC 20540-4810USAtel. 202-707-3732fax 202-707-1724The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. ? ?


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From venetia.ansell at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jul 11 05:01:58 2011
From: venetia.ansell at GMAIL.COM (venetia ansell)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 11 10:31:58 +0530
Subject: Subhashitas
Message-ID: <161227093095.23782.17430996549268856794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can anyone help a friend with the query on subhashitas below?  Thank you
very much


To judge from anthologies, it seems that in practice the sanskrit
subhashita is always considered to consist of a single verse. I have
been told a few subhashitas that define the subhashita, but none of
them mention that a subhashita should consist of a single verse. I
wonder if this criterion is made explicit in any sanskrit text.

Phillip Ernest
Viratanagar, Bommanahalli, Bengaluru


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From ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG  Mon Jul 11 06:07:48 2011
From: ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG (Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 11 11:37:48 +0530
Subject: Contemporary reci tation of              Skandapur=?utf-8?Q?=C4=81=E1=B9=87_a_m=C4=81h=C4=81tmya?= ?
Message-ID: <161227093099.23782.5631586665496957068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Friends,
Among the maahaatmya-s listed by Mr. Taylor, I was told that the Kaa"siikha.n.da is being recited (at least in the month of kaarttika) in Varanasi; the Brahmottarakha.n.da is a very important religious text highly venerated by the saiva-s of Tamilnadu. It has been rendered into tamil verse by one of the descendants of later Pandya kings in the 16th century and has been published.
I think the Brahmottarakha.n.da does not so much deal with the greatness of Varanasi. Some of the religious and even philosophical doctrines of Saivasiddhanta are discussed in that. It is the Kaa'siikha.n.da that excusively deals with Varanasi. There is a valuable commentary also for this which has been published.
The Setumaahaatmya also has been Translated into Tamil verse under the name Cettuppuraa.nam.
Long back I heard that the Venkatachalamaahaatmya used to be recited or expounded during Navaraatri celebrations in some parts of Karnataka, especially by vaishnava-s.
Kaarttikamaahaatmya is being regularly recited during that month in Varanasi and I have even heard it being recited (interspersed with Hindi explanations) some years back in a Siva temple in Amritsar.
With the best wishes,
Ganesan

Dr.T.Ganesan
Senior Researcher in Saivasiddhanta
French Institute of Pondicherry
UMIFRE 21 CNRS-MAEE
11, St. Louis Street
P.B. 33  PONDICHERRY-605001
INDIA 
Tel: +91 - 413 - 233 4168 ext. 123
E mail: ganesan at ifpindia.org
Web: www.ifpindia.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: McComas Taylor 
  To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk 
  Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 10:18 AM
  Subject: [INDOLOGY] Contemporary recitation of Skandapur?? a m?h?tmya?


  Dear colleagues

  I am interested in the contemporary uses of puranic texts, in particulary the Skandapur??a. Below is a list of the main m?h?tmya of the Skanda.

  Do any of you good folk know if any of these texts are still recited or at least drawn on or employed in ritual in their relevant situations?

  Thanks in advance

  McComas


  <!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Mongolian Baiti"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} table.MsoTableGrid {mso-style-name:"Table Grid"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-unhide:no; border:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-border-insideh:.5pt solid windowtext; mso-border-insidev:.5pt solid windowtext; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} </style> <![endif]--> Section no.
       Section title
       Contents of section
       
        1.2
       Kaum?rika-kha??a (KKh)
       m?h?tmya of Mah?s?garasa?gama t?rtha, (Kambath, Gujarat)
       
        2.1
       Ve?ka??cala-m?h?tmya (VM)
       Mt Tirumali, near Tirupati, AP
       
        2.2
       Puru?ottamak?etra- m?h?tmya (PM)
       Puri, Orissa
       
        2.3
       Badarik??rama-m?h?tmya (BM)
       Badrinath, Uttarakhand
       
        2.4
       K?rttikam?sa-m?h?tmya (KM)
       various rites to be performed during this month
       
        2.6
       Bh?gavata-m?h?tmya (BhM)
       m?h?tmya of Bh?gavata-pur??a
       
        2.7
       Vai??kham?sa-m?h?tmya (Vai?M)
       rites performed for Vi??u in month of Vai??kha
       
        2.8
       Ayodhy?-m?h?tmya (AM)
       t?rthas around Ayodhy?, UP
       
        2.9
       V?sudeva-m?h?tmya (V?sM)
       churning of the ocean, description of the earth, dharma of var?a and ??rama
       
        3.1
       Setu-m?h?tmya (SM)
       Ramsetu, TN ?Adam?s Bridge?
       
        3.3
       Br?hmottara-kha??a (BKh)
       greatness and glorification of ?iva
       
        4.1-4.2
       K???-kha??a 
       Varanasi  
       
        5.3
       Rev?-kha??a
       t?rthas and temples on banks of Narmad? R
       
        6
       N?gara-kha??a
       H??ake?varak?etra  and Va?nagara, Gujarat
       
        7.2
       Vastr?pathak?etra- m?h?tmya (Va?ga.)
       Gujarat
       
        7.4
       Dv?rak?-m?h?tmya
       K???a?s capital after flight from Mathur?, traditionally associated with Gujarat
       


  --
  McComas Taylor
  Head, South Asia Program
  ANU College of Asia and the Pacific
  Tel: +61 2 6125 3179
  Location: Baldessin Precinct Building, 4.24
  Website: http://arktos.anu.edu.au/chill/index.php/mct
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Learn about my courses:  Sanskrit 1  |  Indian Epics 


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From McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU  Mon Jul 11 04:48:42 2011
From: McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 11 14:48:42 +1000
Subject: Contemporary recitation of              Skandapur=?utf-8?Q?=C4=81=E1=B9=87_a_m=C4=81h=C4=81tmya?= ?
Message-ID: <161227093091.23782.3554997660727864948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues

I am interested in the contemporary uses of puranic texts, in particulary the Skandapur??a. Below is a list of the main m?h?tmya of the Skanda.

Do any of you good folk know if any of these texts are still recited or at least drawn on or employed in ritual in their relevant situations?

Thanks in advance

McComas






 

  
  
Section no.

  
  
  
Section title

  
  
  
Contents of section

  
 
 
  
  
1.2

  
  
  
Kaum?rika-kha??a
  (KKh)

  
  
  
m?h?tmya
  of Mah?s?garasa?gama t?rtha, (Kambath, ?Gujarat)

  
 
 
  
  
2.1

  
  
  
Ve?ka??cala-m?h?tmya (VM)

  
  
  
Mt Tirumali, near
  Tirupati, AP

  
 
 
  
  
2.2

  
  
  
Puru?ottamak?etra- m?h?tmya (PM)

  
  
  
Puri, Orissa

  
 
 
  
  
2.3

  
  
  
Badarik??rama-m?h?tmya (BM)

  
  
  
Badrinath, Uttarakhand

  
 
 
  
  
2.4

  
  
  
K?rttikam?sa-m?h?tmya (KM)

  
  
  
various rites to
  be performed during this month

  
 
 
  
  
2.6

  
  
  
Bh?gavata-m?h?tmya (BhM)

  
  
  
m?h?tmya of Bh?gavata-pur??a

  
 
 
  
  
2.7

  
  
  
Vai??kham?sa-m?h?tmya (Vai?M)

  
  
  
rites performed
  for Vi??u in month of Vai??kha

  
 
 
  
  
2.8

  
  
  
Ayodhy?-m?h?tmya (AM)

  
  
  
t?rthas around
  Ayodhy?, UP

  
 
 
  
  
2.9

  
  
  
V?sudeva-m?h?tmya (V?sM)

  
  
  
churning of the
  ocean, description of the earth, dharma of var?a and ??rama

  
 
 
  
  
3.1

  
  
  
Setu-m?h?tmya (SM)

  
  
  
Ramsetu, TN
  ?Adam?s Bridge?

  
 
 
  
  
3.3

  
  
  
Br?hmottara-kha??a (BKh)

  
  
  
greatness and
  glorification of ?iva

  
 
 
  
  
4.1-4.2

  
  
  
K???-kha??a 

  
  
  
Varanasi? 

  
 
 
  
  
5.3

  
  
  
Rev?-kha??a

  
  
  
t?rthas and
  temples on banks of Narmad? R

  
 
 
  
  
6

  
  
  
N?gara-kha??a

  
  
  
H??ake?varak?etra?
  and Va?nagara, Gujarat

  
 
 
  
  
7.2

  
  
  
Vastr?pathak?etra- m?h?tmya (Va?ga.)

  
  
  
Gujarat

  
 
 
  
  
7.4

  
  
  
Dv?rak?-m?h?tmya

  
  
  
K???a?s capital
  after flight from Mathur?, traditionally associated with Gujarat

  
 




--
McComas Taylor
Head, South Asia Program
ANU College of Asia and the Pacific
Tel: +61 2 6125 3179
Location: Baldessin Precinct Building, 4.24
Website: http://arktos.anu.edu.au/chill/index.php/mctLearn about my courses:? Sanskrit 1(http://www.screenr.com/NSBs)? |? Indian Epics(http://screenr.com/uUBs)


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From donovevs at LIBERO.IT  Mon Jul 11 14:34:23 2011
From: donovevs at LIBERO.IT (Svevo D'Onofrio)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 11 16:34:23 +0200
Subject: Perso-Indica Visiting Fellowships at the Sorbonne Nouvelle
Message-ID: <161227093103.23782.2641114973101753907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Perso-Indica Visiting Fellowships at the Sorbonne Nouvelle.
The Perso-Indica Visiting Fellowships are offered at the Institut d?Etudes Iraniennes of the Sorbonne Nouvelle with the support of the research group ?Mondes iranien et indien? (UMR 7528) and the Fondation Colette Caillat of the Institut de France. The positions are open to outstanding senior and promising younger scholars from any country working on a research topic which can constitute an original and important contribution to the Perso-Indica project. Perso-Indica is a long term project, the purpose of which is to set up a comprehensive Critical Survey of Persian Works on Indian Learned Traditions, encompassing the treatises and translations produced between the 13th and the 19th century (for further details see: http://www.perso-indica.net). Perso-Indica is based in Paris (Sorbonne Nouvelle-UMR 7528) and was launched in 2010 with the financial support of the Institut Fran?ais de Recherche en Iran (Tehran) and the Iran Heritage Foundation (London). In addition, from 2011 onwards, it is supported by the research funds of the programme ?CNRS - Higher Education Chairs?, Iranian studies chair at the Sorbonne Nouvelle ? UMR 7528 ?Mondes iranien et indien?.

Each Visiting Fellowship is for a period of 1 month. Two Fellowships are available during the academic year 2011-2012. One fellowship should be held in February or March 2012, starting February 1st or March 1st. The second fellowship should be held between May and June 2012 and allow the fellow to take part to the Perso-Indica Conference, to be held in Paris in early June 2012.

Complete applications should be submitted by 30 September 2011.

The Call for applications and the Application form can be downloaded from http://www.univ-paris3.fr/etudes-iraniennes.

We would be grateful if you could post the announcement at your institution and circulate it, also via email, among colleagues and scholars who you think would be qualified and interested in applying for the fellowships.

Kindest regards,

Svevo D'Onofrio


PhD, Research Fellow
University of Bologna
Department of Linguistics and Oriental Studies
via Zamboni 33 - 40126 Bologna, Italy
Tel: +39 051 2098471
Email: svevo.donofrio at unibo.it
Homepage: www.perso-indica.net 




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From annamisia at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jul 13 08:38:19 2011
From: annamisia at YAHOO.COM (Anna A. Slaczka)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 11 01:38:19 -0700
Subject: Bhattacharya article
Message-ID: <161227093106.23782.10537373602380500495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends and Colleagues,

I urgently seek the article of Gouriswar Bhattacharya: 'Nandin and Vrsabha', Zeitschrift der deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft Suppl. 3, 1977, pp. 1545-67. I am unable to come to Leiden these days where it might (or not) be available. So if someone has an e-version, I would be grateful for sending it off-list.

Thanks!!!

Anna Slaczka,
Amsterdam.




From annamisia at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jul 13 09:05:01 2011
From: annamisia at YAHOO.COM (Anna A. Slaczka)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 11 02:05:01 -0700
Subject: Bhattacharya article
In-Reply-To: <1310546299.49487.YahooMailClassic@web125520.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227093113.23782.7298756122336387498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

That was fast!!!
I would like to thank Peter Wyzlic and Petra Kieffer-P?lz
for sending the link to the article.

Anna Slaczka
Amsterdam

--- On Wed, 7/13/11, Anna A. Slaczka <annamisia at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> From: Anna A. Slaczka <annamisia at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Bhattacharya article
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Date: Wednesday, July 13, 2011, 10:38 AM
> Dear Friends and Colleagues,
> 
> I urgently seek the article of Gouriswar Bhattacharya:
> 'Nandin and Vrsabha', Zeitschrift der deutschen
> morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft Suppl. 3, 1977, pp. 1545-67.
> I am unable to come to Leiden these days where it might (or
> not) be available. So if someone has an e-version, I would
> be grateful for sending it off-list.
> 
> Thanks!!!
> 
> Anna Slaczka,
> Amsterdam.
> 




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Wed Jul 13 15:03:34 2011
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 11 08:03:34 -0700
Subject: Rajesh Rao, Computing a Rosetta Stone for the Indus Script
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Ced1FY+W=H=1-VTkaxPRnPmVRMGrwyPvAMpuOExXZi6Ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093122.23782.5981913972384564750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Jul 13, 2011, at 5:36 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> TED talk, March 2011:
>
> begin quote:

> Rajesh Rao is fascinated by "the mother of all crossword puzzles":  
> How to decipher the 4000 year old Indus script. At TED 2011 he tells  
> how he is enlisting modern computational techniques to read the  
> Indus language, the key piece to understanding this ancient  
> civilization.

> end quote.

There is  nothing new in Rao's claims, which were thoroughly debunked  
(among other places) by Richard Sproat in an invited article in  
_Computational Linguistics_ less than a year ago. See Richard Sproat,  
"Ancient Symbols, Computational Linguistics, and the Reviewing  
Practices of the General Science Journals," Computational Linguistics  
36, 3 (Sept. 2010), 585-94.

You can download the full article (open access) here:

http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/coli_a_00011

As Richard argues, articles like the original paper by Rao in  
_Science_ that started this ball rolling should never have been  
published -- and say more about the degradation of standards in peer  
review practices (triggered in part by vastly increased information  
flows we are experiencing today) than about computational linguistics.

The flaws in Rao's work are so obvious to computational linguists --  
which it is important to note is not Rao's field, which explains in  
part the linguistic naivite in his work -- that the same claim (that  
Rao's research was not properly reviewed) was in fact made immediately  
after Rao's first paper appeared by a long series of computational  
linguists besides Sproat, including most prominently Mark Liberman and  
Fernando Pereira.

For their comments and analysis, and the related analysis by the  
mathematician Cosma Shalizi, see here in the Language Log, made  
immediately after Rao's first paper was published:

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1374

There is no need to repeat their technical arguments here. In brief,  
leaving aside mathematical niceties (for those, see the links above):  
the fact that there is order of some sort in Indus symbols has been  
known since the 1920s. GR Hunter demonstrated that using nothing more  
sophisticated than pencil and paper charts in his 1929 doctoral thesis  
on Indus signs. All that Rao has replicated using complex means is  
what any simple eyeballing of the signs makes immediately apparent.

What Hunter and Rao (and many others before him who made similar  
claims, going back to the 1960s, about the "magic of computers" in  
"deciphering" the "script")  didn't bother to mention: all symbol  
strings of every sort have order in them; this includes boy scout  
medals, horoscopal signs, alchemical symbols, mnemonic signs, magical  
symbols, clan signs, the signs on Kudurru stones, or conventional  
orders of saints or saint attributes in iconographical works.

You can even find order of the same sort in modern multi-symbol  
airport and highway signs. You can also ashow from cross-cultural  
analyses of highway signs (Michael Witzel has made an interesting  
collection of these for our amusement) that there are different  
"dialects" of these symbols, none of which has to do with them  
supposedly encoding different "languages."

As Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel showed in 2004, the kind of order that  
you find in Indus symbols shows up as well in the order of 'blazons'  
or medieval heraldic signs -- which obviously doesn't suggest that  
heraldic signs encode "language", as ordinarily understood.

Sproat and his students are non embarked on a project in studying the  
various orders in different types of nonlinguistic signs, funded by  
grants from the National Science Foundation.

More sensationalist nonsense has been written about the so-called  
Indus script than about any other pseudo-script I can think about --  
grossly skewing our understanding of Indus civilization -- although  
the recent nonsense about "Pictish language" (inspired by Rao's work)  
comes close. On this, see again Liberman's  trenchant remarks in the  
Language Log:

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2227

See also here, where Liberman also points to Sproat's definitive  
article in _Computational Linguistics_, which "poses the question that  
I [Liberman] was too polite to ask":

> How is it that papers that are so trivially and demonstrably wrong  
> get published in journals such as Science or the Proceedings of the  
> Royal Society?


I personally think that the answer to that question has to do with the  
marketing uses of sensationalism in a period in which traditional  
subscription-based journals are forced to compete with open access  
materials, and editor succumb to the temptations of publishing papers  
so sensational that they are sure to get noticed in the popular press.

We know that there was fierce inside opposition at Science magazine to  
publishing Rao's original paper, and yet Science refused to published  
even a short letter refuting the paper despite the widespread  
criticism the paper engendered from computational linguists due to a  
"lack of space."

Very rushed comments above (on a deadline that has nothing to do with  
anything Indus).

Regards,
Steve Farmer




From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU  Wed Jul 13 15:39:30 2011
From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 11 08:39:30 -0700
Subject: Rajesh Rao, Computing a Rosetta Stone for the Indus Script
In-Reply-To: <0F0A3E07-88D3-4A7F-9211-B8077D678356@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227093128.23782.2344377440444767465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

After listening to Rao's talk and reading Sproat's article, I find myself wondering what the argument is about.  Here are some things that occur to me:

1. The seals were clearly used as stamps to indicate ownership. They then are either names or special combinations of signs to indicate a person or group.

2. Even if they are "writing," that is a system where each sign corresponds to a sound or group of sounds, they probably lack real syntax.  "Jack Sprat" doesn't tell us anything about English verb forms or any other syntactic features of the language, even though it is writing.

3. If the signs have no relationship to language, don't the seals contain too many of them for people to remember handily?  On the other hand, if the signs do correspond to syllables/words (fish symbol = m??, star), people would have a much easier way of remembering them -- instead of having to remember an abstract group of 12 symbols, they could just remember the system.

4. My last name is "Hart," and my father put big hearts on his shutters.  This is not writing, but the symbol clearly mirrors its pronunciation -- had my father been Russian-speaking, he would not have used a heart.

5. Is it not possible that there is some intermediate solution.  Why should the seals have no relationship whatsoever to the language they spoke?  This doesn't seem logical to me.  On the other hand, I doubt that they are "writing" in the sense we think of it, as we can't really expect to find complex syntactical and morphological structures in them.  It is certainly possible, I would think, that the IV people never developed writing in the way that other civilizations did, but that doesn't mean that they didn't have a system that contained phonetic correspondences with their own language.

I'm not entirely sure what Steve Farmer et al. are contending -- do they suggest there is no phonetic content whatsoever to the signs?  Everyone seems to agree that the order of the signs is not random.  Do they reflect any sort of underlying syntax, or are they arranged by some other system (Gods / Men / Animals)?

It also strikes me that if there were two people named "Hart," someone might put a pot over the heart to indicate that was the Hart that was also a potter as opposed to the Hart that ran an inn.  This would be a partially phonetic system.

None of this proves or disproves that the fish symbol might have been pronounced m??.

George Hart

On Jul 13, 2011, at 8:03 AM, Steve Farmer wrote:

> On Jul 13, 2011, at 5:36 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
> 
>> TED talk, March 2011:
>> 
>> begin quote:
> 
>> Rajesh Rao is fascinated by "the mother of all crossword puzzles": How to decipher the 4000 year old Indus script. At TED 2011 he tells how he is enlisting modern computational techniques to read the Indus language, the key piece to understanding this ancient civilization.
> 
>> end quote.
> 
> There is  nothing new in Rao's claims, which were thoroughly debunked (among other places) by Richard Sproat in an invited article in _Computational Linguistics_ less than a year ago. See Richard Sproat, "Ancient Symbols, Computational Linguistics, and the Reviewing Practices of the General Science Journals," Computational Linguistics 36, 3 (Sept. 2010), 585-94.
> 
> You can download the full article (open access) here:
> 
> http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/coli_a_00011
> 
> As Richard argues, articles like the original paper by Rao in _Science_ that started this ball rolling should never have been published -- and say more about the degradation of standards in peer review practices (triggered in part by vastly increased information flows we are experiencing today) than about computational linguistics.
> 
> The flaws in Rao's work are so obvious to computational linguists -- which it is important to note is not Rao's field, which explains in part the linguistic naivite in his work -- that the same claim (that Rao's research was not properly reviewed) was in fact made immediately after Rao's first paper appeared by a long series of computational linguists besides Sproat, including most prominently Mark Liberman and Fernando Pereira.
> 
> For their comments and analysis, and the related analysis by the mathematician Cosma Shalizi, see here in the Language Log, made immediately after Rao's first paper was published:
> 
> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1374
> 
> There is no need to repeat their technical arguments here. In brief, leaving aside mathematical niceties (for those, see the links above): the fact that there is order of some sort in Indus symbols has been known since the 1920s. GR Hunter demonstrated that using nothing more sophisticated than pencil and paper charts in his 1929 doctoral thesis on Indus signs. All that Rao has replicated using complex means is what any simple eyeballing of the signs makes immediately apparent.
> 
> What Hunter and Rao (and many others before him who made similar claims, going back to the 1960s, about the "magic of computers" in "deciphering" the "script")  didn't bother to mention: all symbol strings of every sort have order in them; this includes boy scout medals, horoscopal signs, alchemical symbols, mnemonic signs, magical symbols, clan signs, the signs on Kudurru stones, or conventional orders of saints or saint attributes in iconographical works.
> 
> You can even find order of the same sort in modern multi-symbol airport and highway signs. You can also ashow from cross-cultural analyses of highway signs (Michael Witzel has made an interesting collection of these for our amusement) that there are different "dialects" of these symbols, none of which has to do with them supposedly encoding different "languages."
> 
> As Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel showed in 2004, the kind of order that you find in Indus symbols shows up as well in the order of 'blazons' or medieval heraldic signs -- which obviously doesn't suggest that heraldic signs encode "language", as ordinarily understood.
> 
> Sproat and his students are non embarked on a project in studying the various orders in different types of nonlinguistic signs, funded by grants from the National Science Foundation.
> 
> More sensationalist nonsense has been written about the so-called Indus script than about any other pseudo-script I can think about -- grossly skewing our understanding of Indus civilization -- although the recent nonsense about "Pictish language" (inspired by Rao's work) comes close. On this, see again Liberman's  trenchant remarks in the Language Log:
> 
> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2227
> 
> See also here, where Liberman also points to Sproat's definitive article in _Computational Linguistics_, which "poses the question that I [Liberman] was too polite to ask":
> 
>> How is it that papers that are so trivially and demonstrably wrong get published in journals such as Science or the Proceedings of the Royal Society?
> 
> 
> I personally think that the answer to that question has to do with the marketing uses of sensationalism in a period in which traditional subscription-based journals are forced to compete with open access materials, and editor succumb to the temptations of publishing papers so sensational that they are sure to get noticed in the popular press.
> 
> We know that there was fierce inside opposition at Science magazine to publishing Rao's original paper, and yet Science refused to published even a short letter refuting the paper despite the widespread criticism the paper engendered from computational linguists due to a "lack of space."
> 
> Very rushed comments above (on a deadline that has nothing to do with anything Indus).
> 
> Regards,
> Steve Farmer




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Wed Jul 13 15:51:29 2011
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 11 08:51:29 -0700
Subject: Rajesh Rao, Computing a Rosetta Stone for the Indus Script
In-Reply-To: <67501D95-8DD5-47C9-972C-F208EDAA6B76@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227093125.23782.956167480058904875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I unfortunately don't have time to deal with this old issue again here  
right now, but quickly:

George Hart writes:

> After listening to Rao's talk and reading Sproat's article, I find  
> myself wondering what the argument is about.  Here are some things  
> that occur to me:
>
> 1. The seals were clearly used as stamps to indicate ownership. They  
> then are either names or special combinations of signs to indicate a  
> person or group.

1. Everyone who studies these symbols first hand knows that seals are  
only one of many types of Indus artifacts that carry symbols. You find  
Indus symbols on lots of things that surely had nothing to do with  
"names" or "ownership."

2. If you look at Ancient Near Easter seals from the third millennium  
BCE, you'll find that only a minority of them have names on them. We  
discuss this and other things you raise in our original 2004 paper  
that first questioned the old assumption that that Indus symbols were  
linguistic.

> I'm not entirely sure what Steve Farmer et al. are contending -- do  
> they suggest there is no phonetic content whatsoever to the signs?   
> Everyone seems to agree that the order of the signs is not random.   
> Do they reflect any sort of underlying syntax, or are they arranged  
> by some other system (Gods / Men / Animals)?

What Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel 2004 contend is clearly delineated in  
our paper, which discusses questions like these:

http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2.pdf
>
> None of this proves or disproves that the fish symbol might have  
> been pronounced m??.

Probably one of the silliest claims ever made about the symbols, with  
no evidence whatsoever to back it.

Best,
Steve




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Wed Jul 13 17:16:03 2011
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 11 10:16:03 -0700
Subject: Rajesh Rao, Computing a Rosetta Stone for the Indus Script
In-Reply-To: <13929689-19C5-4513-A5D8-9C711615F172@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227093131.23782.11963303437846833321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear George [Hart],

Just a quick follow-up on one interesting and critical issue you  
raise, re. rebuses:

> It also strikes me that if there were two people named "Hart,"  
> someone might put a pot over the heart to indicate that was the Hart  
> that was also a potter as opposed to the Hart that ran an inn.  This  
> would be a partially phonetic system.

Premodern peoples punned compulsively, as we know from many different  
types of sources globally. And visual puns of the sort you point to  
also show up in every known ancient civilization, both literate and  
non-literate.

But the use of visual-verbal puns (rebuses) certainly is not unique to  
what any specialist would view as a "script" in the technical sense of  
the term. Writing as understood by specialists in literate systems  
entails a lot more than just casual phoneticism.

The usual claim about the so-called Indus script (at least before we  
published our 2004 paper - claims now are far more modest) was that it  
was a "full script," implying that it was capable in principle of  
encoding any speech act.

That takes a lot more than the kind of casual phoneticism you point  
to, which is pervasive globally in emblematic, clan, and heraldic  
symbol systems (even in Mongolian horse branding systems).

In Western heraldic systems, for example, this kind of punning is  
known as "canting arms," which often included extraordinarily complex  
multi-symbol puns of the sort you refer to.

For many nice examples, see < http://www.heraldica.org/topics/canting.htm 
  > (see especially the section entitled "Complex Rebuses").

But use of rebuses aside, no one would sanely call systems of heraldic  
signs, which include a lot of casual phoneticism, "writing systems" or  
"scripts" as linguists typically use that term.

Can you write a book with heraldic signs? Or perform the ultimate test  
I'd contend of a "writing system" -- write a book about another book.  
Could you write a post using those signs about an ancient pseudo- 
script? :^)

Neither finding "nonrandom order" in symbols -- ALL symbol systems,  
linguistic and nonlinguistic, are nonrandom in order (try to come up  
with a counterexample!) -- nor casual phoneticism or punning or use of  
rebuses, is evidence of writing. Order is found in ALL symbol systems,  
not just literate one; and punning is common, in linguistic and non- 
literate systems both.

Did the Indus peoples in whatever languages (certainly multiple) that  
they spoke make puns? Certainly, if they were like all other ancient  
peoples we know (the way the brain is structured punning is in fact  
inevitable).

Did they have a writing system in the technical sense of that term?  
The evidence argues strongly against that -- starting above all with  
the embarrassing shortness of every one of the many thousands of Indus  
symbol strings that have come down to us, on over a dozen different  
kinds of materials.

One of the most interesting things about the Indus civilization, given  
its massive size, is precisely the fact that all indications point to  
its nonlinguistic status. This is far from unique in the premodern  
world -- many major urban civilizations in premodern Mesoamerica and  
South America also functioned without writing. And the same seems to  
have been true of the urban civilizations neighboring the Indus on the  
southeastern Iranian plains as well, and north as well.

But writing is a major enabling technology in civilization, and the  
apparent nonliterate status of the Indus goes a long way towards  
explaining a number of obvious differences between the urban remains  
associated with the Indus and those associated with their distant  
literate neighbors in the Ancient Middle East. Pace Possehl and  
others, major urban civilizations certainly do NOT require literacy.

Michael Witzel and I discussed some of problems the old script thesis  
introduced into studies of Indus civilization -- and some of the new  
approaches opened up in those studies by the non-script view -- in a  
paper presented at Harvard last October. Abstract here:

http://www.safarmer.com/IndusValleyFantasies.pdf

Unfortunately I'm under the gun and really can't take this any further  
at the moment. But I did find your comments about punning interesting.

Regards,
Steve




From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE  Wed Jul 13 08:41:09 2011
From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 11 10:41:09 +0200
Subject: Bhattacharya article
In-Reply-To: <1310546299.49487.YahooMailClassic@web125520.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227093109.23782.12145587079487121311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Am 13.07.2011 um 10:38 schrieb Anna A. Slaczka:

> I urgently seek the article of Gouriswar Bhattacharya: 'Nandin and Vrsabha', Zeitschrift der deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft Suppl. 3, 1977, pp. 1545-67. I am unable to come to Leiden these days where it might (or not) be available. So if someone has an e-version, I would be grateful for sending it off-list.
> 

See URL: <http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg/periodical/pageview/151410>

Hope it helps
Peter Wyzlic

--
Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften
Bibliothek
Universit?t Bonn
Regina-Pacis-Weg 7
53113 Bonn




From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU  Wed Jul 13 17:58:06 2011
From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 11 10:58:06 -0700
Subject: Steve Farmer's Reply
Message-ID: <161227093138.23782.8040920311537912304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following reply from Steve Farmer lays out his position in a short and lucid way.  I am posting it with his permission, as I think others will be interested.  I don't want this forum to become a locus of IV speculation, as there is no end to that, but I do believe it's worth summarizing some of the current thinking.  Perhaps someone on the other side ("It is writing") could post a similarly clear and abridged statement of their position.  George Hart

Dear George [Hart],

Just a quick follow-up on one interesting and critical issue you raise, re. rebuses:

> It also strikes me that if there were two people named "Hart," someone might put a pot over the heart to indicate that was the Hart that was also a potter as opposed to the Hart that ran an inn.  This would be a partially phonetic system.

Premodern peoples punned compulsively, as we know from many different types of sources globally. And visual puns of the sort you point to also show up in every known ancient civilization, both literate and non-literate.

But the use of visual-verbal puns (rebuses) certainly is not unique to what any specialist would view as a "script" in the technical sense of the term. Writing as understood by specialists in literate systems entails a lot more than just casual phoneticism.

The usual claim about the so-called Indus script (at least before we published our 2004 paper - claims now are far more modest) was that it was a "full script," implying that it was capable in principle of encoding any speech act.

That takes a lot more than the kind of casual phoneticism you point to, which is pervasive globally in emblematic, clan, and heraldic symbol systems (even in Mongolian horse branding systems).

In Western heraldic systems, for example, this kind of punning is known as "canting arms," which often included extraordinarily complex multi-symbol puns of the sort you refer to.

For many nice examples, see < http://www.heraldica.org/topics/canting.htm > (see especially the section entitled "Complex Rebuses").

But use of rebuses aside, no one would sanely call systems of heraldic signs, which include a lot of casual phoneticism, "writing systems" or "scripts" as linguists typically use that term.

Can you write a book with heraldic signs? Or perform the ultimate test I'd contend of a "writing system" -- write a book about another book. Could you write a post using those signs about an ancient pseudo-script? :^)

Neither finding "nonrandom order" in symbols -- ALL symbol systems, linguistic and nonlinguistic, are nonrandom in order (try to come up with a counterexample!) -- nor casual phoneticism or punning or use of rebuses, is evidence of writing. Order is found in ALL symbol systems, not just literate one; and punning is common, in linguistic and non-literate systems both.

Did the Indus peoples in whatever languages (certainly multiple) that they spoke make puns? Certainly, if they were like all other ancient peoples we know (the way the brain is structured punning is in fact inevitable).

Did they have a writing system in the technical sense of that term? The evidence argues strongly against that -- starting above all with the embarrassing shortness of every one of the many thousands of Indus symbol strings that have come down to us, on over a dozen different kinds of materials.

One of the most interesting things about the Indus civilization, given its massive size, is precisely the fact that all indications point to its nonlinguistic status. This is far from unique in the premodern world -- many major urban civilizations in premodern Mesoamerica and South America also functioned without writing. And the same seems to have been true of the urban civilizations neighboring the Indus on the southeastern Iranian plains as well, and north as well.

But writing is a major enabling technology in civilization, and the apparent nonliterate status of the Indus goes a long way towards explaining a number of obvious differences between the urban remains associated with the Indus and those associated with their distant literate neighbors in the Ancient Middle East. Pace Possehl and others, major urban civilizations certainly do NOT require literacy.

Michael Witzel and I discussed some of problems the old script thesis introduced into studies of Indus civilization -- and some of the new approaches opened up in those studies by the non-script view -- in a paper presented at Harvard last October. Abstract here:

http://www.safarmer.com/IndusValleyFantasies.pdf

Unfortunately I'm under the gun and really can't take this any further at the moment. But I did find your comments about punning interesting.

Regards,
Steve


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From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jul 13 12:36:55 2011
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 11 14:36:55 +0200
Subject: Rajesh Rao, Computing a Rosetta Stone for the Indus Script
Message-ID: <161227093116.23782.12413941359607813501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

TED talk, March 2011:

begin quote:

> Rajesh Rao is fascinated by "the mother of all crossword puzzles": How to
> decipher the 4000 year old Indus script. At TED 2011 he tells how he is
> enlisting modern computational techniques to read the Indus language, the
> key piece to understanding this ancient civilization.

end quote.

http://www.ted.com/talks/rajesh_rao_computing_a_rosetta_stone_for_the_indus_script.html


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From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jul 13 14:39:20 2011
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 11 16:39:20 +0200
Subject: Kane vol.3 update
Message-ID: <161227093119.23782.17463130529567905904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A couple of months ago, I uploaded the first edition of Kane's *History of
Dharmasastra* to archive.org.  Today I discovered some pages were missing
from v.3 (pp.217-224), so I've re-made the PDF from a new set of scans
(thanks to the DLI), and uploaded the new version.  It's here:

http://www.archive.org/details/HistoryOfDharmasastraancientAndMediaevalReligiousAndCivilLawV.3

Best,

Dr Dominik Wujastyk
Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde
Universit?t Wien
Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1
A-1090 Vienna
Austria
Project: http://www.istb.univie.ac.at/caraka/
--
Long-term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com
PGP key: http://wujastyk.net/pgp.html
--
Sign-up to Dropbox using the following link and get 2.25 gigabytes of
storage free: https://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTIzNzI2MTY5


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From rospatt at BERKELEY.EDU  Thu Jul 14 00:27:46 2011
From: rospatt at BERKELEY.EDU (Alexander von Rospatt)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 11 17:27:46 -0700
Subject: Mangalam Research Center Fall Programs in Yogacara Studies
Message-ID: <161227093143.23782.7626665591382982636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,
please take a note of the below announcement that I post on behalf of Jack Petranker, Director of the Mangalam Research Center at Berkeley.

Alexander von Rospatt
----------------
 

Mangalam Research Center for Buddhist Languages in Berkeley, CA is pleased to announce three separate but related programs in the field of Yog?c?ra and Sanskrit studies, to be held from October 31-November 22. The programs are open to scholars and advanced graduate students. The details are as follows:
 
Seminar on the Tri??ik? (Oct. 31 ? Nov, 3, 2011), to be led by Jowita Kramer (Oxford University) and Alexander von Rospatt (University of California). See below for a more detailed description. Drs. Charles Muller, William Waldron, and Florin Deleanu will participate in both programs, together with Drs. Luis G?mez and Michael Hahn, MRC?s Academic Directors. Graduate students interested in the seminar and symposium should have a good working knowledge of Sanskrit. Knowledge of Tibetan and/or Chinese is helpful. This seminar can be attended separately.
 
Symposium on Yog?c?ra Terminology (Nov. 4 ? 6, 2011). This program is part of MRC?s ongoing program of research into terminology suitable for translating canonical Buddhist texts and the creation of an online database to facilitate such work. It will build on the work done during the Tri??ik? Seminar, and all the scholars listed above will take part. Seminar participants are welcome to stay on for the Symposium.  
 
MRC also invites advanced graduate students who enroll in the seminar and symposium to stay on for a Residential Program to run from November 7-22. The program will be led by Professors Hahn and G?mez and our Senior Research Fellows.  The Residential Program is intended primarily for ABD students writing a dissertation on a topic related to Yog?c?ra whose schedule allows them to be absent from their university for this length of time. It will provide an opportunity to work closely with senior scholars, postdoctoral fellows, and other students engaged in similar research. Students will learn skills and receive advice that will lead directly to a better dissertation and contribute in the long-term to their abilities as translators, teachers, and editors.
 
Description of the Tri??ik? Seminar:
 
In his Thirty Verses (Tri??ik?) Vasubandhu (4th/5th c.) gives a short but comprehensive overview of key concepts of the Yog?c?ra tradition. In the first part of the text Vasubandhu summarizes the multiple functions of the mind, including actual perception, the so-called store-house conciousness (?layavij??na), and the conceit 'I am' identified with the kli??amanas. The second section of the Tri??ik? is dedicated to the treatment of the three ?natures? (svabh?va) of phenomena -- conceptualized, dependent, and perfected -- and to the three ways of not having an intrinsic nature (ni?svabh?vat?). In the last part of his work Vasubandhu analyzes the concept of ?representation only? (vij?aptim?trat?) and investigates its relation to the realization of true reality. Participants will read Vasubandhu's Thirty Verses in the Sanskrit original and examine the meaning of key Yog?c?ra terms and concepts, and how to best render them in English. Passages from Sthiramati?s commentary Tri??ik?vij?aptibh??ya will also be consulted.
 
For details on how to apply, costs, housing options, etc. please see the MRC website, www.mangalamresearch.org.
 
Regards,
 
Jack Petranker
Director, Mangalam Research Center
 



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From hellwig7 at GMX.DE  Wed Jul 13 17:16:11 2011
From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 11 18:16:11 +0100
Subject: New version of the DCS
Message-ID: <161227093135.23782.1423063539478244518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list,

a new version of the Digital Corpus of Sanskrit (DCS) is now available at 
http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/index.php. My special 
thanks go to Mr. Dulip Withanage at the HRA in Heidelberg for his prompt, 
competent, and patient help in setting up the new version!
 
As citations and similar text passages have been a big issue in Germany for 
the last few months, the corpus now displays parallel passages in Sanskrit 
literature. You can find some theoretical background about the search 
algorithm at http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/index.php?
contents=help_citations. Basically, the database has been scanned for text 
passages that have at least 4 "non-trivial" words in common. Words may 
occur in free order, so dharmArthagobrAhmaNa and brAhmaNArthadharmago are 
accepted as similar. Parallels are displayed on the one hand in a large 
graph (select the menu item "Parallels"). Here, a line between two texts 
represents the parallels (click on the line to display the text passages). 
Texts marked green in this graph contain many incoming and outgoing links 
and are, therefore, important nodes in the network of parallels. On the 
other hand, parallels can be displayed for each individual chapter in a 
text. Try, for example, Manusmriti 1.1, which contains 130 parallel or 
similar passages (sentences starting with "=> ..."). Hope, this function 
may be helpful for a better understanding of some aspects of text 
transmission in ancient India.

In addition, I corrected a bug that prevented user input and corrections on 
the text page.


Best regards,

Oliver Hellwig
-------------------
PD Dr. Oliver Hellwig
South-Asia Institute, University of Heidelberg
Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
69120 Heidelberg
Germany




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Jul 13 23:15:29 2011
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 11 19:15:29 -0400
Subject: prices of Khotan or Newari mss
Message-ID: <161227093140.23782.256811313230898854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If anyone is aware of the prices of recently purchased or recently appraised Khotan mss (in Sanskrit or Khotanese) or early (pre-18th c.) mss from Nepal, could they please contact me off-list ASAP?  Also, asking prices would be of interest, whether realized or not.

I have searched the ArtFact database.

No, none of our South Asian mss are missing, but we have been asked about the very most valuable ones.

Please feel free to forward.

Thanks very much.

Allen


Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator
South Asia Team
Asian Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.W.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
USA
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.








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From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Thu Jul 14 16:16:52 2011
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 11 09:16:52 -0700
Subject: The Indus script as proto-writing
In-Reply-To: <20110714175025.18083tjvtik7n29d.aparpola@webmail.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <161227093156.23782.2057929205390061245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

It is interesting to note at a minimum that Asko's views (cited in  
full below) have radically changed since we published our 2004 paper.  
As Asko has generously pointed out in conferences that we have both  
attended -- most recently in Kyoto in 2009 -- due to our work he at  
least no longer claims that the so-called "Indus script" is full  
writing, but only qualifies as a "proto-writing" system.

The difference is not trivial, given his much more spectacular claims  
otherwise in his classic book on the so-called script (Parpola 1994)  
and in dozens of earlier and later articles, going back to the late  
1960s, when (like Rao 40 years later) Asko too claimed that he had  
"cracked the Indus code" using computers. (Asko, unlike Rao, later  
retracted his claims.)

So there has been big movement in the field since we published our  
paper in 2004.

However, the "proto-writing" idea Asko has in recent years adopted as  
a fall-back position doesn't work either, for quite obvious reasons we  
already discussed in our 2004 paper. (Over 200,000 reprints of that  
paper have been downloaded from my server alone since it was first  
published, but sometimes I wonder if anyone has actually read it  
through, given some of the odd comments made about it.)

On page 33 of that study, after discussing evidence of a lack of  
significant phoneticism in Indus symbol strings known from  
stratigraphic evidence to be exclusively very late (on bar  
inscriptions without iconography) we comment that this evidence

http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2

> suggests that the Indus system was not even
> evolving in linguistic directions after at least 600 years of use.  
> Since we  know that Indus elites
> were in trade contact throughout those centuries with Mesopotamia,  
> if the Harappans really had a
> script, by this time we would expect it to have possessed  
> significant phoneticism, as always
> assumed. (The usual claim is that the system was a ?mixed? script  
> made up of sound signs, whole-
> word signs, and function signs, like the Luwian system, cuneiform,  
> or Egyptian hieroglyphs.)
> The implication is that the Indus system cannot even be comfortably  
> labeled as a ?proto-script?,
> but apparently belonged to a different class of symbols: it is  
> hardly plausible to argue that a proto-
> script remained in a suspended state of development for six  
> centuries or more while its users were
> in regular contact with a high-literate civilization.

Asko below (and elsewhere) has tried to counter this argument by  
anachronistically citing Archaic Sumerian as a parallel example. That  
is a very strange claim: it seems quite odd to us to draw parallels  
between uniformly short Indus symbol strings from ca. 1900 BCE -- a  
very high literate period throughout the Middle East -- with "proto- 
writing" from the Sumerians as much as 1500 years earler! Again, to  
quote our original 2004 paper, to which no additional comment is needed:

> it is hardly plausible to argue that a proto-
> script remained in a suspended state of development for six  
> centuries or more while its users were
> in regular contact with a high-literate civilization.

And a period of high literacy it was indeed! We have hundreds of  
thousands of extraordinarily long texts from this period in the Middle  
East -- and at the same the Indus were supposedly still working out  
the principles of writing in their "proto-writing" system??

The same of course goes for Asko's comparisons to early Egyptian  
writing from the late 4th millennium BCE -- an odd comparison again to  
make surely with early 2nd millennium artifacts carrying  
excruciatingly short symbol strings from the Indus Valley.

Moreover, as we tried to point out to him in Kyoto in 2009, he  
repeatedly miscites Baines' work on this point . Asko writes, clearly  
thinking of (but not citing) our comments about the Indus system not  
evolving in phonetic directions for over 600 years (as discussed in  
evidence in the locus cited in our paper above):

> ... for about 600 years equalling the duration of the Indus  
> Civilization ? the Egyptians used a language-based, phoneticized  
> writing system, but did not write full sentences, only very short  
> texts fully comparable to the surviving texts in the Indus script.  
> Early administrative documents are assumed to have existed but have  
> not survived (cf. Baines 1999: 884).

I have in front of me Baines' fullest collection of his articles on  
early writing in Egypt, _Visual & Written Culture in Ancient Egypt_  
(Oxford 2007), which contains a number of his early and later essays  
on the origins of writing in Egypt. It contains a variety of  
illustrations of early Egyptian texts -- going back to *before* 3000  
BCE -- which are indeed "true writing" and are many times longer than  
*any* of the  thousands of short symbol chains we find from the Indus  
civilization from as much as well over a thousand years later.

The "proto-writing" thesis simply isn't any more credible than the  
"full writing" thesis that we buried in 2004.

Supposedly the Harappans couldn't figure out how to move from "proto- 
writing" to "full writing" for 600 years when their trade neighbors in  
the Near East were producing hundreds of thousands of massive texts?  
That wouldn't say much for the "Indus wisemen."

Massive and redundant evidence -- much of which Asko himself has  
gathered for us -- demonstrates that Indus symbols were of a different  
non-linguistic type. Moreover, similar non-linguistic symbol systems  
were common in the ancient world at the same time -- existing side-by- 
side with literate systems -- as we also discuss at length in our paper.

It is possible as Michael Witzel, Richard Sproat, and I have argued at  
considerable length -- also Steven Weber and Dorian Fuller, in papers  
we've given as far back as 2005 (again in Kyoto) -- to learn a great  
deal about the Indus civilization by systematically studying the  
spatial and geographical distribution of the signs using a  
computerized data base of known "inscriptions" -- aided by a special  
visual interface designed specifically for this purpose.

  Ironically, as we again argued in our original paper -- in part of  
it that is rarely cited, since everyone is still caught up in the  
(quite obvious) "it isn't a script" issue -- the symbols are more  
valuable to us as historical evidence simply because they are NOT part  
of a writing system.

In Kyoto in 2009 we offered to finance (up to $100,000!)  through the  
Cultural Modeling Research Group the creation of an online data base  
of the signs optimized for such purposes. Asko, Richard Meadow, and  
Mark Kenoyer among others were invited to join us in the Project. Our  
view is that once the evidence that we have access to was made more  
accessible to the public -- now the evidence is buried in  
extraordinarily expensive volumes --  the *obviousness* of the non- 
linguistic nature of the signs would be evident to everyone.

Asko declined the offer.

We are happy however that Asko at least no longer views the Indus  
signs as part or a full writing system, capable (as he suggested in  
his book in 1994: 54) of encoding long narratives of the sort found  
throughout the Ancient Near East in the same time period./

But the "proto-writing" thesis is no more credible, for reasons  
quickly sketched above. It is unfortunate given all the wonderful new  
evidence that we have in the symbols to still be caught up in "Indus  
script" discussions, which asks all the wrong questions.

The Indus civilization is much more interesting for what is was, and  
not for what many -- some with nationalist political agendas -- have  
imagined it to be. That is the theme of a book that Michael Witzel and  
I have wanted to write for some years (_Indus Valley Fantasies_) but  
have not yet found the time to put together.

Sorry again for the very quick note: on tight deadlines.

Best,
Steve Farmer



On Jul 14, 2011, at 7:50 AM, Asko Parpola wrote:

> Quoting "George Hart" <glhart at BERKELEY.EDU>:
>
>> The following reply from Steve Farmer lays out his position in a  
>> short and lucid way.  I am posting it with his permission, as I  
>> think others will be interested.  I don't want this forum to become  
>> a locus of IV speculation, as there is no end to that, but I do  
>> believe it's worth summarizing some of the current thinking.   
>> Perhaps someone on the other side ("It is writing") could post a  
>> similarly clear and abridged statement of their position.  George  
>> Hart
>>
>
> I take up George Hart's challenge with the following reply:
>
>
> The Indus script as proto-writing
>
> Asko Parpola
>
> It is widely agreed that the Archaic Sumerian script or "Proto- 
> Cuneiform" is the world's oldest writing system, used in the Late  
> Uruk Period (Uruk strata IV and III, c. 3400-3000 BCE).  It was used  
> as an administrative tool to record on clay tablets such matters as  
> grain distribution, land, animal and personnel management, and the  
> processing of fruits and cereals. "The script can be 'understood' in  
> some sense, but it cannot be fully read; although there has been  
> some doubt concerning the language that was the basis for this  
> written expression, there is clear evidence that it was  
> Sumerian" (Michalowski 1996: 33).  Archaic Sumerian was logosyllabic  
> writing because its signs stood for elements of a spoken language,  
> words and morphemes, with initially rare phonetization. It was not  
> from the beginning able to record everything: it took many centuries  
> of ever increasing phonetization for this "nuclear writing" to  
> develop into a "full writing" where all grammatical elements were  
> written. Yet it is considered "true writing", because it was a  
> language-based system of visual aigns.
> 	The Egyptian Hieroglyphic writing was certainly used in Pre- 
> Dynastic times. The royal tomb U-j at Umm el-Qa'ab near Abydos in  
> Upper Egypt, dated to c 3200 BCE, contained 150 inscribed bone tags  
> originally attached to grave goods recording the places of origin of  
> these goods, as well as pottery inscriptions and sealings. These  
> were excavated in 1988 and published ten years later (Dreyer 1998).  
> This earliest form of Egyptian script was already a well-formed  
> logophonic writing system, which can be partially understood on the  
> basis of later Egyptian writing. "By the early 1st Dynasty, almost  
> all the uniconsonantal signs are attested, as well as the use of  
> classifiers or determinatives, so that the writing system was in  
> essence fully formed even though a very limited range of material  
> was written." (Baines 1999: 882). "Many inscribed artifacts are  
> preserved from the first two Dynasties, the most numerous categories  
> being cylinder seals and sealings, cursive annotations on pottery,  
> and tags originally attached to tomb equipment, especially of the  
> 1st Dynasty kings. Continuous language was still not  
> recorded" (Baines 1999: 883). Thus until the beginning of the Old  
> Kingdom starting with the 3rd Dynasty in 2686 BCE ? for about 600  
> years equalling the duration of the Indus Civilization ? the  
> Egyptians used a language-based, phoneticized writing system, but  
> did not write full sentences, only very short texts fully comparable  
> to the surviving texts in the Indus script. Early administrative  
> documents are assumed to have existed but have not survived (cf.  
> Baines 1999: 884).
> 	When defining the Indus script as logosyllabic, I noted several  
> constraints to be observed in its analysis: "the linguistic elements  
> that are expected to correspond to the signs are morphemes rather  
> than phonemes. Secondly, all of the morphemes pronounced in the  
> spoken Indus language may not, and are not even likely to, have a  
> counterpart in its written form. In the third place, all preserved  
> Indus inscriptions are very short, appearing on objects like seals,  
> which are not so likely to contain even normal sentences, with such  
> basic constituents as a verbal predicate or an object, let alone  
> complex sentences." (Parpola 1994: 89).  This was before Damerow  
> (1999) suggested the term 'proto-writing' for the earliest,  
> linguistically incomplete notations (cf. Houston ed. 2004: 11); on  
> these earliest writing systems see especially Houston ed. 2004.
> 	In my opinion Farmer, Sproat and Witzel (2004: 19 and 33) err when  
> they suggest that "the Indus system cannot be categorized as  
> 'script' ... capable of systematically encoding speech", and that it  
> "cannot even be comfortably labeled as a 'proto-script', but  
> apparently belonged to a different class of symbols."  Their  
> principal arguments, the shortness of Indus texts, their restriction  
> to only a few text types, and the long duration (c 600 years) of  
> this stage of script evolution, are effectively annulled by what is  
> said above about the early Sumerian and Egyptian scripts. For their  
> other arguments I refer to an earlier paper of mine (Parpola 2008).
> 	George Hart wrote yesterday (13 July 2011): "None of this proves or  
> disproves that the fish symbol might have been pronounced [in  
> Dravidian]  m??. Steve Farmer wrote in reply (13 July 2011):  
> Probably one of the silliest claims ever made about the symbols,  
> with no evidence whatsoever to back it. My reply: there is actually  
> a lot of evidence to back it (see Parpola 1994: 179-272; and new  
> evidence in Parpola 2009). Due to a complete lack of bilinguals, it  
> is very difficult to verify sign interpretations, but not altogether  
> impossible. Perhaps the most important test stone is supplied by the  
> nominal compounds actually existing in languages that are  
> historically likely to be related to the Harappan language: these  
> can be compared to Harappan sign sequences that can be pictorially  
> interpreted and perhaps deciphered with the help of linguistically  
> acceptable homophonies (used in all early scripts for phonetication:  
> the rebus puns). The accumulation of iconically acceptable,  
> systematic and interconnected interpretations can eliminate chance  
> coincidences in a process comparable to filling cross-word puzzles.
>
> References:
>
> Baines, John, 1999. Writing: invention and early development. Pp.  
> 882-885 in: Kathryn A. Bard (ed.), Encyclopedia of the archaeology  
> of ancient Egypt. London and New York: Routledge.
>
> Dreyer, G?nter, 1998. Umm el-Qaab I: Das pr?dynastische K?nigsgrab  
> U-j und seine fr?hen Schriftzeugnisse. (Arch?ologische  
> Ver?ffentlichungen 86.) Mainz: Verlag Philipp von Zabern.
>
> Farmer, Steve, Richard Sproat and Michael Witzel, 2004. The collapse  
> of the Indus-scrpt thesis: The myth of a literate Harappan  
> civilization: Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 11 (2): 19-57.
>
> Houston, Stephen (ed.), 2004. The first writing: Script invention as  
> history and process. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
>
> Michalowski, Piotr, 1996. Mesopotamian cuneiform: Origins. Pp. 33-36  
> in: Peter T. Danies & William Bright (eds.), The world's writing  
> systems. New York: Oxford University Press.
>
> Parpola, Asko, 1994. Deciphering the Indus script. Cambridge:  
> Cambridge University Press.
>
> Parpola, Asko, 2008. Is the Indus script indeed not a writing  
> system? Pp. 111-131 in: Airavati: Felicitation volume in honour of  
> Iravatham Mahadevan, Chennai: Varalaaru.com. Downloadable from www.harappa.com
>
> Parpola, Asko, 2009. 'Hind leg' + 'fish': Towards further  
> understanding of the Indus script. Scripta 1: 37-76. (Downloadable  
> at www.harappa.com)




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Thu Jul 14 16:35:11 2011
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 11 09:35:11 -0700
Subject: The Indus script as proto-writing
In-Reply-To: <8ACFDEF3-8A91-4891-91D3-8D7E4AE22F8E@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227093159.23782.4059521115715487932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The URL I give to our 2004 paper in the section below was incomplete.  
The correct address to download it:

http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2.pdf

On Jul 14, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Steve Farmer wrote:
>
> However, the "proto-writing" idea Asko has in recent years adopted  
> as a fall-back position doesn't work either, for quite obvious  
> reasons we already discussed in our 2004 paper. (Over 200,000  
> reprints of that paper have been downloaded from my server alone  
> since it was first published, but sometimes I wonder if anyone has  
> actually read it through, given some of the odd comments made about  
> it.)
>
> On page 33 of that study, after discussing evidence of a lack of  
> significant phoneticism in Indus symbol strings known from  
> stratigraphic evidence to be exclusively very late (on bar  
> inscriptions without iconography) we comment that this evidence
>
> http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2
>
>> suggests that the Indus system was not even
>> evolving in linguistic directions after at least 600 years of use.  
>> Since we  know that Indus elites
>> were in trade contact throughout those centuries with Mesopotamia,  
>> if the Harappans really had a
>> script, by this time we would expect it to have possessed  
>> significant phoneticism, as always
>> assumed. (The usual claim is that the system was a ?mixed? script  
>> made up of sound signs, whole-
>> word signs, and function signs, like the Luwian system, cuneiform,  
>> or Egyptian hieroglyphs.)
>> The implication is that the Indus system cannot even be comfortably  
>> labeled as a ?proto-script?,
>> but apparently belonged to a different class of symbols: it is  
>> hardly plausible to argue that a proto-
>> script remained in a suspended state of development for six  
>> centuries or more while its users were
>> in regular contact with a high-literate civilization.

Steve Farmer




From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU  Thu Jul 14 18:03:07 2011
From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 11 11:03:07 -0700
Subject: The Indus script as proto-writing
In-Reply-To: <F026E8C5-CCFD-4994-A7CB-6058B16EBB5E@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227093162.23782.1240869840098685656.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In reading over the interchange between Steve and Asko, I can't help wondering: if the IV civilization was in contact with other civilizations in the Near East, as it apparently was, why didn't they borrow writing from them if they had none of their own?  It seems to me -- and I admit to being naive on this point -- that writing systems spread quite readily and inevitably.  Thus Brahmi in South Asia, Phoenician in the Middle East and Europe, Chinese in East Asia, etc.  Wouldn't the IV civ. have borrowed cuneiform writing if they had none of their own?  It's hard for me to imagine that their traders came into contact with something so useful as a developed writing system and didn't either imitate it or borrow it.  George Hart

On Jul 14, 2011, at 9:35 AM, Steve Farmer wrote:

> The URL I give to our 2004 paper in the section below was incomplete. The correct address to download it:
> 
> http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2.pdf
> 
> On Jul 14, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Steve Farmer wrote:
>> 
>> However, the "proto-writing" idea Asko has in recent years adopted as a fall-back position doesn't work either, for quite obvious reasons we already discussed in our 2004 paper. (Over 200,000 reprints of that paper have been downloaded from my server alone since it was first published, but sometimes I wonder if anyone has actually read it through, given some of the odd comments made about it.)
>> 
>> On page 33 of that study, after discussing evidence of a lack of significant phoneticism in Indus symbol strings known from stratigraphic evidence to be exclusively very late (on bar inscriptions without iconography) we comment that this evidence
>> 
>> http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2
>> 
>>> suggests that the Indus system was not even
>>> evolving in linguistic directions after at least 600 years of use. Since we  know that Indus elites
>>> were in trade contact throughout those centuries with Mesopotamia, if the Harappans really had a
>>> script, by this time we would expect it to have possessed significant phoneticism, as always
>>> assumed. (The usual claim is that the system was a ?mixed? script made up of sound signs, whole-
>>> word signs, and function signs, like the Luwian system, cuneiform, or Egyptian hieroglyphs.)
>>> The implication is that the Indus system cannot even be comfortably labeled as a ?proto-script?,
>>> but apparently belonged to a different class of symbols: it is hardly plausible to argue that a proto-
>>> script remained in a suspended state of development for six centuries or more while its users were
>>> in regular contact with a high-literate civilization.
> 
> Steve Farmer




From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jul 14 09:35:23 2011
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 11 11:35:23 +0200
Subject: prices of Khotan or Newari mss
In-Reply-To: <1D525027B29706438707F336D75A279F1AB34F4F48@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV>
Message-ID: <161227093147.23782.16983637293665636041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There's a fairly constant stream of Skt MSS being sold through ebay.com.
They're often very cheap (though sometimes just a few folios), except when
illustrated.  See
here<http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=sanskrit+manuscript&_sacat=See-All-Categories>.
Caveat emptor, of course.

Dominik




On 14 July 2011 01:15, Thrasher, Allen <athr at loc.gov> wrote:

> If anyone is aware of the prices of recently purchased or recently
> appraised Khotan mss (in Sanskrit or Khotanese) or *early* (pre-18th c.)
> mss from Nepal, could they please contact me off-list ASAP?  Also, asking
> prices would be of interest, whether realized or not.****
>
> ** **
>
> I have searched the ArtFact database.****
>
> ** **
>
> No, none of our South Asian mss are missing, but we have been asked about
> the very most valuable ones.****
>
> ** **
>
> Please feel free to forward.****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks *very* much.****
>
> ** **
>
> Allen****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.****
>
> Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator****
>
> South Asia Team****
>
> Asian Division****
>
> Library of Congress****
>
> 101 Independence Ave., S.W.****
>
> Washington, DC 20540-4810****
>
> USA****
>
> tel. 202-707-3732****
>
> fax 202-707-1724****
>
> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of
> Congress.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>


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From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Thu Jul 14 19:48:05 2011
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 11 12:48:05 -0700
Subject: The Indus script as proto-writing
In-Reply-To: <20110714212450.861033avhd00jc6q.aparpola@webmail.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <161227093167.23782.6602712517083443775.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Not to quibble, Asko, but your dates are way off, and associations of  
late Indus artifacts bearing symbols with Sumerian writing long before  
it still seems very odd and anachronistic. Note also of course that  
the length of Sumerian texts by the dates you cite were also orders of  
magnitude longer than the longest Indus "texts" (so called) ever found.

Also your claim of "new evidence" of when the "Indus script was  
created." Are we back to traditional claims that some Harappan genius  
created the supposed script (now claimed as "proto-writing") in one  
fell swoop and then it became "frozen"? It isn't a credible view.

And that aside, you still fail to address the obvious question that  
would pop up in the mind of anyone not trained by a massive (and  
misdirected) literature to think otherwise: Why would the Indus still  
be using a putative proto-script 700 years or later -- with the  
average length of the supposed "texts" being under 5 symbols long --  
while at the same time throughout the Middle East they were writing  
massive volumes, indeed *hundreds* of thousands of them longer than  
the longest supposed Indus "text" -- on similar durable materials, in  
a wide range of urban civilizations?

The thesis that all the thousands of Indus artifacts carrying  
ridiculously short "texts" represent "writing" or "proto-writing"  
stretches all credulity. If this was a "proto-writing" system frozen  
in its development that is an indication of a profound conservatism in  
ancient civilizations that we don't find elsewhere.

Not ONE ancient literate civiization is known that failed to leave  
long texts behind on durable materials -- unless of course the Indus  
peoples are a lone example, which is highly unlikely given their long  
contact with literate civilizations.

A picture is worth a thousand words: To put this all in context, it is  
fun to look at the longest Indus "inscription" (if that's even the  
right word) on a single-sided object bearing symbols (17 of them, 11  
of them high frequency and none repeated even once on the object --  
hardly a suggestion of phoneticism) with a single proto-Elamite  
inscription from 800-1000 or more yeasr earlier.

The caption on the photo: "Size Matters" -- some evidence of what  
*true* "proto-writing" (the usual status assigned to proto-Elamite)  
typically looks like:

http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/comparison.html

George Hart earlier today asked some extremely interesting and  
relevant questions about why the Indus didn't borrow a script from  
their neighbors. I don't have time to address that right now (noon  
California time), but I will say something about that later tonight,  
George. I think the question has some good answers and possibly clues  
to why the Harappans (like Vedic peoples even by the middle of the  
first millennium BCE, until the Persians entered the scene) eschewed  
writing, though they certain knew of it.

Back later tonight.

Best,
Steve

On Jul 14, 2011, at 11:24 AM, asko.parpola at helsinki.fi wrote:

> Quoting "Steve Farmer" <saf at SAFARMER.COM>:
>
>
>> Asko below (and elsewhere) has tried to counter this argument by  
>> anachronistically citing Archaic Sumerian as a parallel example.  
>> That is a very strange claim: it seems quite odd to us to draw  
>> parallels between uniformly short Indus symbol strings from ca.  
>> 1900 BCE -- a very high literate period throughout the Middle East  
>> -- with "proto-writing" from the Sumerians as much as 1500 years  
>> earler!
>
> When the Indus script was created - according to the new evidence  
> from Harappa around 2600 BCE - the Sumerian script had become more  
> phoneticized but was still at the "nuclear writing" stage: I have  
> illustrated this by citing a recurrent phrase in its Early Dynastic  
> version from Fara (c 2500 BCE) and its later 'classical' Sumerian  
> version (see Parpola 1994: 34, after Miguel Civil and R. D. Biggs,  
> Notes sur des textes sum?riens arch?ques, Revue d'Assyriologie 60,  
> 1966: 12f.). Apparently the Indus script functioned sufficiently  
> well for the Harappan needs so that they found no reason for any  
> major modification.
>
> My participation in this debate ends here as far as the present  
> discussion is concerned. Thank you for the opportunity to present my  
> present view on the nature of the Indus script.
>
> With best regards, Asko Parpola
>




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Thu Jul 14 21:20:32 2011
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 11 14:20:32 -0700
Subject: The Indus script as proto-writing
In-Reply-To: <526792E8-E92A-4920-A579-BC21907CC98B@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227093170.23782.9365459204905358742.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear George,

Actually, vs. my last message, let me get to your interesting  
questions quickly while Indus materials are still in mind.

On Jul 14, 2011, at 11:03 AM, George Hart wrote:

> In reading over the interchange between Steve and Asko, I can't help  
> wondering: if the IV civilization was in contact with other  
> civilizations in the Near East, as it apparently was, why didn't  
> they borrow writing from them if they had none of their own?  It  
> seems to me -- and I admit to being naive on this point -- that  
> writing systems spread quite readily and inevitably.  Thus Brahmi in  
> South Asia, Phoenician in the Middle East and Europe, Chinese in  
> East Asia, etc.  Wouldn't the IV civ. have borrowed cuneiform  
> writing if they had none of their own?  It's hard for me to imagine  
> that their traders came into contact with something so useful as a  
> developed writing system and didn't either imitate it or borrow it.   
> George Hart

The standard assumption is that writing normally spreads "quite  
readily and inevitably." But historically, interestingly enough, that  
doesn't turn out to be the case.

I'll leave aside the issue of how appropriate or not cuneiform would  
have been in encoding the unknown languages of the Indus -- which we'd  
certainly have to assume based on comparative evidence were multiple,  
as we've long argued -- since we know absolutely nothing about those  
languages. (The old assumptions from the 30s and 40s that Asko picked  
up in the 1960s that they were Dravidian have been pretty much  
debunked by now, I think -- but that's another issue. See here now  
even Frank Southworth, _Linguistic Archaeology of South Asia_, who  
bravely changed his book in the proofing stage, having (reluctantly!)  
been convinced by our arguments in our 2004 paper.)

Before turning to the Indus examples, just think of premodern  
Mesoamerica, where we we find a complex mixture of both literate and  
non-literate urban civilizations existing side-by-side. Thus the Maya  
of course among other Mesoamerican peoples had a fully functioning  
script, but the Aztecs and Mixtecs didn't (they did of course have  
very long mnemonic prompt texts with extremely limited phoneticism,  
but not writing as linguists think of it, pace Parpola 1994: 54).

Nor did the Incas have anything you can call a script in the strict  
linguistic sense, unless you believe (rather eccentric and unverified)  
claims that the quipu system functioned as a kind of writing system,  
loosely defined.

The same mixture of literate and non-literate urban civilizations --  
as is much less well-known -- also shows up in the Ancient Near East.  
Not long after a Harvard Roundtable talk I gave on the nonlinguistic  
status of Indus symbols in 2002, Carl Lamberg-Karlovsky published a  
paper  ("To Write or Not to Write." In Timothy Potts, Michael Roaf,  
and Diana Stein, eds. _Culture through Objects_, Cambridge, 2003, pp.  
59-72) that discussed the wonderfully wild mix of literate, half- 
literate, and totally non-literate urban civilizations of the Ancient  
Middle East. (His discussion overlaps with Indus times, but he avoided  
the whole issue of the Indus in the paper, which Michael Witzel and I  
at the time thought was interesting.)

Michael and I by this time had already taken this view much further,  
discussing in a variety of conference talks and papers a vast "No Text  
Zone"  that encompassed virtually everything East of Elam through  
Central Asia and India and the Persian Gulf as well from the early 3rd  
millennium BCE until well into the first millennium BCE.

It should be noted that we were forced at the same time, in  
conjunction with Richard Sproat, the proto-Elamite expert Jakob Dahl,  
and others, to debunk a lot claims coming out after 2003 --  now  
widely known as spurious and based on faked evidence, as I first  
argued -- about writing at the then much-hyped Jiroft digs.

In 2009 Dan Potts, at our Kyoto Indus conference, and in private  
emails as well confirmed his belief too in the total non-linguistic  
nature of the urban civilizations in these regions, including the  
Persian Gulf, where of course we have found seals with some Indus  
features. Dan, who is indisputably the world's expert on Persian Gulf  
archaeology, among much else, certainly does not agree with Asko that  
this is a sign of literacy in the region. Dan takes it as "obvious,"  
as he told me in Kyoto, that the Indus system was nonliterate.

So pace Greg Possehl (who is often quoted on this) and many others,  
you certainly *don't* need literacy in large urban civilizations. That  
is an historical myth that is easy to falsify empirically.

The question remains, of course -- as George Hart points out --  as to  
why some of these non-literate urban civilizations failed to pick up  
on writing before the Persians spread literacy into India and Central  
Asia after ca. 500 BCE. (The effects of that spread are part of what  
Michael and I have dubbed the "Gandharan thesis," which gives us  
powerful new ways to date Vedic texts; we plan as well to expand on  
this elsewhere; so far the thesis is discussed only online (in some  
depth, however) and in footnotes in some of our papers.)

Many possible reasons exist for rejecting literacy, but one of the  
most obvious in the case of India -- compare with anti-literate  
attitudes we know existed widely in Vedic traditions in the second  
half of the first millennium BCE, and indeed beyond -- has to do with  
the destructive power of literacy in respect to existing magical- 
religious and social-political institutions.

(Cf. the same situation in relation to Celtic religious traditions:  
the Celts used Greek frequently for economic purposes, but like the  
Vedic peoples eschewed its use in encoding their religious and  
literate traditions. Cf. too the highly negative comments about  
writing by the author or authors of the Phaedrus, in the Platonic  
corpus.)

There may be other reasons involved, including possibly the  
multilinguistic nature of the Indus peoples -- the Mixtecs and Aztecs  
too, who lacked full phonetic writing systems, were highly  
multilinguistic societies, making mnemonic systems in this case more  
useful than phonetic ones -- but at present this is just a guess. Many  
peoples have preferred oral traditions to literate ones, and often for  
similar reasons, even when in contact with fully literate societies.

What *is* clear, for whatever reason, is that ancient urban  
civilizations often never adopted literacy even when they knew of it.  
This is apparently true of the vast "No Text" zone we find after proto- 
Elamite times (proto-Elamite disappeared early in the third millennium  
BCE, long before Indus political-religious symbols appeared on the  
scene) in the urban civilizations of the Southeast Iranian plateau,  
among the BMAC and other semi-urban peoples of Central Asia, in the  
Persian semi-urban centers, and in the Indus civilization. And that  
condition apparently *lasted* until Persian times, when use of Aramaic  
as an administrative language was spread all the way from Egypt to  
northern India and Central Asia.

The "No Text Zone" idea, which Michael first suggested after one of my  
talks at Harvard in 2001, is a very exciting one. We discussed it  
briefly in our 2004 paper, in Kyoto in 2005 and 2009, and will do so  
at length at some point if we ever get around to finishing our _Indus  
Valley Fantasies_ book. I also include discussion of it in a book in  
progress on wider cross-cultural philological issues and topics in  
cultural neurobiology.

For a little on that, see the abstract of our Harvard talk from last  
October, here (pretty compressed, but it tries to pack a lot in):

http://www.safarmer.com/IndusValleyFantasies.pdf

Unlike Asko, I'm happy to discuss these issues just about anywhere --  
I think it is counterproductive to cut off debate of anything  
scientific -- but I am really caught up in other research issues now  
involving the Cultural Modeling Research Group, which (as noted in the  
abstract) includes neurobiological and computational as well as  
philological dimensions.

So many specialists in scripts and ancient archaeology, etc., by now  
have quietly accepted our views -- to proclaim them publicly the way  
we have inevitably invokes violent attacks from the Hindu right, so  
people for obvious reasons prefer to keep their opinions to themselves  
-- that we assume that eventually everyone will be saying that "all  
Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel have done is point out the obvious."

Well, it's true -- although it took over 140 years to notice the  
obvious. :^) See an amusing little paper from 2003 that I never  
bothered to publish that discusses the so-called script thesis back to  
its very odd origins in the late 19th century; and forgery even then!

http://www.safarmer.com/firstforgery.pdf

Rushed again, and no time to proofread this, unfortunately....
Steve




From Loriliai.Biernacki at COLORADO.EDU  Thu Jul 14 22:59:38 2011
From: Loriliai.Biernacki at COLORADO.EDU (Loriliai Biernacki)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 11 16:59:38 -0600
Subject: FW: search for Hindi (and Urdu) instructor
In-Reply-To: <CAKYmPvRr+vdgT+t46F8FLbsN+YfLLDu+869kUB_LGQ-WYyVWWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093172.23782.14197499074986393905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear folks,
Below is an ad for a Hindi instructor. Please pass this on to anyone you
think might be interested.
Thanks,
All best,
Loriliai Biernacki

Associate Professor, Religious Studies
Associate Chair and Director of Graduate Studies
University of Colorado at Boulder
UCB 292
Boulder, CO 80309
303-735-4730
Loriliai.Biernacki at colorado.edu
http://www.colorado.edu/ReligiousStudies/faculty/loriliai.biernacki.html



The Department of Asian Languages and Civilizations at the University of
Colorado Boulder invites applications for a non-tenure-track appointment as
Instructor in Hindi language to begin August 2012. Requirements include at
least the MA in Hindi applied linguistics, language pedagogy, or other
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teach/knowledge of basic Urdu preferred. Teaching load is three courses per
semester. To apply, applicants must submit a letter of application, a
current CV, copies of syllabi of courses taught or proposed, and three
letters of recommendation. Applications are accepted electronically at
https://www.jobsatcu.com, posting 814257. Review of applications will begin
on November 15, 2011. Applications will be accepted until the position is
filled. The University of Colorado is an Equal Opportunity Employer
committed to building a diverse workforce. We encourage applications from
women, racial and ethnic minorities, individuals with disabilities and
veterans. Alternative formats of this ad can be provided upon request for
individuals with disabilities by contacting the ADA Coordinator at (303)
492-1334. See www.Colorado.edu/ArtsSciences/Jobs/
<http://www.Colorado.edu/ArtsSciences/Jobs/>  for full job description.

-



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From asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI  Thu Jul 14 14:50:25 2011
From: asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 11 17:50:25 +0300
Subject: The Indus script as proto-writing
In-Reply-To: <0B5761F3-185E-4D61-BA2F-8CDC26A98A0E@BERKELEY.EDU>
Message-ID: <161227093150.23782.549465419358973187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Quoting "George Hart" <glhart at BERKELEY.EDU>:

> The following reply from Steve Farmer lays out his position in a  
> short and lucid way.  I am posting it with his permission, as I  
> think others will be interested.  I don't want this forum to become  
> a locus of IV speculation, as there is no end to that, but I do  
> believe it's worth summarizing some of the current thinking.   
> Perhaps someone on the other side ("It is writing") could post a  
> similarly clear and abridged statement of their position.  George Hart
>

I take up George Hart's challenge with the following reply:


The Indus script as proto-writing

Asko Parpola

It is widely agreed that the Archaic Sumerian script or  
"Proto-Cuneiform" is the world's oldest writing system, used in the  
Late Uruk Period (Uruk strata IV and III, c. 3400-3000 BCE).  It was  
used as an administrative tool to record on clay tablets such matters  
as grain distribution, land, animal and personnel management, and the  
processing of fruits and cereals. "The script can be 'understood' in  
some sense, but it cannot be fully read; although there has been some  
doubt concerning the language that was the basis for this written  
expression, there is clear evidence that it was Sumerian" (Michalowski  
1996: 33).  Archaic Sumerian was logosyllabic writing because its  
signs stood for elements of a spoken language, words and morphemes,  
with initially rare phonetization. It was not from the beginning able  
to record everything: it took many centuries of ever increasing  
phonetization for this "nuclear writing" to develop into a "full  
writing" where all grammatical elements were written. Yet it is  
considered "true writing", because it was a language-based system of  
visual aigns.
	The Egyptian Hieroglyphic writing was certainly used in Pre-Dynastic  
times. The royal tomb U-j at Umm el-Qa'ab near Abydos in Upper Egypt,  
dated to c 3200 BCE, contained 150 inscribed bone tags originally  
attached to grave goods recording the places of origin of these goods,  
as well as pottery inscriptions and sealings. These were excavated in  
1988 and published ten years later (Dreyer 1998). This earliest form  
of Egyptian script was already a well-formed logophonic writing  
system, which can be partially understood on the basis of later  
Egyptian writing. "By the early 1st Dynasty, almost all the  
uniconsonantal signs are attested, as well as the use of classifiers  
or determinatives, so that the writing system was in essence fully  
formed even though a very limited range of material was written."  
(Baines 1999: 882). "Many inscribed artifacts are preserved from the  
first two Dynasties, the most numerous categories being cylinder seals  
and sealings, cursive annotations on pottery, and tags originally  
attached to tomb equipment, especially of the 1st Dynasty kings.  
Continuous language was still not recorded" (Baines 1999: 883). Thus  
until the beginning of the Old Kingdom starting with the 3rd Dynasty  
in 2686 BCE ? for about 600 years equalling the duration of the Indus  
Civilization ? the Egyptians used a language-based, phoneticized  
writing system, but did not write full sentences, only very short  
texts fully comparable to the surviving texts in the Indus script.  
Early administrative documents are assumed to have existed but have  
not survived (cf. Baines 1999: 884).
	When defining the Indus script as logosyllabic, I noted several  
constraints to be observed in its analysis: "the linguistic elements  
that are expected to correspond to the signs are morphemes rather than  
phonemes. Secondly, all of the morphemes pronounced in the spoken  
Indus language may not, and are not even likely to, have a counterpart  
in its written form. In the third place, all preserved Indus  
inscriptions are very short, appearing on objects like seals, which  
are not so likely to contain even normal sentences, with such basic  
constituents as a verbal predicate or an object, let alone complex  
sentences." (Parpola 1994: 89).  This was before Damerow (1999)  
suggested the term 'proto-writing' for the earliest, linguistically  
incomplete notations (cf. Houston ed. 2004: 11); on these earliest  
writing systems see especially Houston ed. 2004.
	In my opinion Farmer, Sproat and Witzel (2004: 19 and 33) err when  
they suggest that "the Indus system cannot be categorized as 'script'  
... capable of systematically encoding speech", and that it "cannot  
even be comfortably labeled as a 'proto-script', but apparently  
belonged to a different class of symbols."  Their principal arguments,  
the shortness of Indus texts, their restriction to only a few text  
types, and the long duration (c 600 years) of this stage of script  
evolution, are effectively annulled by what is said above about the  
early Sumerian and Egyptian scripts. For their other arguments I refer  
to an earlier paper of mine (Parpola 2008).
	George Hart wrote yesterday (13 July 2011): "None of this proves or  
disproves that the fish symbol might have been pronounced [in  
Dravidian]  m??. Steve Farmer wrote in reply (13 July 2011): Probably  
one of the silliest claims ever made about the symbols, with no  
evidence whatsoever to back it. My reply: there is actually a lot of  
evidence to back it (see Parpola 1994: 179-272; and new evidence in  
Parpola 2009). Due to a complete lack of bilinguals, it is very  
difficult to verify sign interpretations, but not altogether  
impossible. Perhaps the most important test stone is supplied by the  
nominal compounds actually existing in languages that are historically  
likely to be related to the Harappan language: these can be compared  
to Harappan sign sequences that can be pictorially interpreted and  
perhaps deciphered with the help of linguistically acceptable  
homophonies (used in all early scripts for phonetication: the rebus  
puns). The accumulation of iconically acceptable, systematic and  
interconnected interpretations can eliminate chance coincidences in a  
process comparable to filling cross-word puzzles.

References:

Baines, John, 1999. Writing: invention and early development. Pp.  
882-885 in: Kathryn A. Bard (ed.), Encyclopedia of the archaeology of  
ancient Egypt. London and New York: Routledge.

Dreyer, G?nter, 1998. Umm el-Qaab I: Das pr?dynastische K?nigsgrab U-j  
und seine fr?hen Schriftzeugnisse. (Arch?ologische Ver?ffentlichungen  
86.) Mainz: Verlag Philipp von Zabern.

Farmer, Steve, Richard Sproat and Michael Witzel, 2004. The collapse  
of the Indus-scrpt thesis: The myth of a literate Harappan  
civilization: Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 11 (2): 19-57.

Houston, Stephen (ed.), 2004. The first writing: Script invention as  
history and process. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

Michalowski, Piotr, 1996. Mesopotamian cuneiform: Origins. Pp. 33-36  
in: Peter T. Danies & William Bright (eds.), The world's writing  
systems. New York: Oxford University Press.

Parpola, Asko, 1994. Deciphering the Indus script. Cambridge:  
Cambridge University Press.

Parpola, Asko, 2008. Is the Indus script indeed not a writing system?  
Pp. 111-131 in: Airavati: Felicitation volume in honour of Iravatham  
Mahadevan, Chennai: Varalaaru.com. Downloadable from www.harappa.com

Parpola, Asko, 2009. 'Hind leg' + 'fish': Towards further  
understanding of the Indus script. Scripta 1: 37-76. (Downloadable at  
www.harappa.com)




From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jul 14 16:08:27 2011
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 11 18:08:27 +0200
Subject: Dan Ingalls lecturing, 1980
Message-ID: <161227093153.23782.9068328399955547466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

http://vimeo.com/4714623

A talk given by Dan Ingalls and his father at Xerox PARC in 1980. It
describes a project to determine authorship of various sections of the great
Indian epic, the Mahabharata. Dan Sr introduces the Sanskrit language and
talks about the traits of oral and written authorship. Dan Jr talks about
how he analyzed the text for such traits, and wrote a program to read the
original text by recognizing the characters of Devanagari text.


The above link was kindly sent to me by Timothy Lighthiser.

DW


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From gthomgt at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jul 14 23:27:09 2011
From: gthomgt at GMAIL.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 11 19:27:09 -0400
Subject: Dan Ingalls lecturing, 1980
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cf24s1oPr8t9bnUMmirmW7135jQGQ7FDnkQH+w-5GF3zA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093176.23782.1359773139431882881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks Dominik and Tim for that!  A great pleasure to see and hear
Ingalls talking about the Mahabharata, etc., some 30 years ago!

George

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 12:08 PM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://vimeo.com/4714623
>
> A talk given by Dan Ingalls and his father at Xerox PARC in 1980. It
> describes a project to determine authorship of various sections of the great
> Indian epic, the Mahabharata. Dan Sr introduces the Sanskrit language and
> talks about the traits of oral and written authorship. Dan Jr talks about
> how he analyzed the text for such traits, and wrote a program to read the
> original text by recognizing the characters of Devanagari text.
>
> The above link was kindly sent to me by Timothy Lighthiser.
>
> DW
>




From asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI  Thu Jul 14 18:24:50 2011
From: asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 11 21:24:50 +0300
Subject: The Indus script as proto-writing
In-Reply-To: <8ACFDEF3-8A91-4891-91D3-8D7E4AE22F8E@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227093165.23782.9796988195321884944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Quoting "Steve Farmer" <saf at SAFARMER.COM>:


> Asko below (and elsewhere) has tried to counter this argument by  
> anachronistically citing Archaic Sumerian as a parallel example.  
> That is a very strange claim: it seems quite odd to us to draw  
> parallels between uniformly short Indus symbol strings from ca. 1900  
> BCE -- a very high literate period throughout the Middle East --  
> with "proto-writing" from the Sumerians as much as 1500 years earler!

When the Indus script was created - according to the new evidence from  
Harappa around 2600 BCE - the Sumerian script had become more  
phoneticized but was still at the "nuclear writing" stage: I have  
illustrated this by citing a recurrent phrase in its Early Dynastic  
version from Fara (c 2500 BCE) and its later 'classical' Sumerian  
version (see Parpola 1994: 34, after Miguel Civil and R. D. Biggs,  
Notes sur des textes sum?riens arch?ques, Revue d'Assyriologie 60,  
1966: 12f.). Apparently the Indus script functioned sufficiently well  
for the Harappan needs so that they found no reason for any major  
modification.

My participation in this debate ends here as far as the present  
discussion is concerned. Thank you for the opportunity to present my  
present view on the nature of the Indus script.

With best regards, Asko Parpola




From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jul 15 07:43:04 2011
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 11 09:43:04 +0200
Subject: Advertisement for two 3-year Sanskrit RA posts at Cambridge
Message-ID: <161227093178.23782.10973747368202352550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

http://www.ames.cam.ac.uk/general_info/jobs/sanskrit-ra.html


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From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE  Fri Jul 15 16:31:18 2011
From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 11 18:31:18 +0200
Subject: Perfect of  the root VYAI/VII ( (VYE: "vye=?iso-8859-15?Q?=F1?=              sa.mvara.ne" Dhaatupaa.tha)
Message-ID: <161227093181.23782.4800423860567354560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

I hesitate about the forms of the perfect of the 
root VYAI/VII (VYE MW: "vye? sa.mvara.ne" 
Dhaatupaa.tha). As Whitney ?801c (p. 290, Harvard 
University Press repr. 1950, in digital form at:  
http://sanskrit1.ccv.brown.edu/Sanskrit/Funderburk/wgramscan/dispa/index.php) 
states: "the grammairians require the strong 
forms to be made from VYAY, and the weak from 
VII", whereas the forms vivyathus and vivye "and 
no others have been met with in use" (so. the 
3d/1st sg. vivyaaya, from P. 6.1.46, and 2nd sg. 
vivyayitha, from P. 7.2.66, found in 
B?htlingk&Roth's Dict. and Whitney's Roots s.v.; 
cf. the 3d pl. vivyu.h (Maagha) versus vivyayu.h 
(Bha.t.t.i) discussed in Durgha.taV. 6.1.108, and 
the 3d pl. vivyu.h and 3d dual vivyatuh explained 
ibid. 8.2.78).
The useful tool created by Gerard Huet, called 
"The Sanskrit Grammarian" 
(http://sanskrit.inria.fr/DICO/grammar.html - 
conjugation), generates the following forms
http://sanskrit.inria.fr/cgi-bin/SKT/sktconjug?t=VH&q=vyaa&c=1&font=roma :
Active:	sg. vivyaaya, vivyayitha, vivyaaya
	dual viviva, vivyathu.h, vivyatu.h
	plural vivima, vivya, vivyu.h
Middle:	sg. vivye, vivii.se, vivye
	dual viviivahe, vivyaathe, vivyaate
	plural viviimahe, viviidhve, viviire
But I wonder if it is not possible to rather have 
in the 1st dual and plural A: vivyiva and 
vivyima, following the forms ninyiva and ninyima 
of NII, and samely in the Middle Voice, // NII, 
the 2nd sg vivyi.se, 1st dual and plural 
vivyivahe vivyimahe, and 2nd-3d pl. vivyire.

Thank you for your grammatical comments, also on 
the 'alternative' forms A. 1st sg. viviya and 2nd 
sg. viviktha that I found in Hanxleden's grammar 
given as such.

Christophe Vielle
-- 
http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle
http://belgianindology.blogs.lalibre.be/
http://www.uclouvain.be/356389.html

--
Sign-up to Dropbox using the following link and get 2.25 gigabytes of
storage free.
http://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTEwOTE3Nzg1OQ


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From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jul 17 15:31:54 2011
From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 11 17:31:54 +0200
Subject: Fwd: Perso-Indica Visiting Fellowships at the Sorbonne Nouvelle
In-Reply-To: <1310893251.69058.YahooMailRC@web130121.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227093188.23782.10776370549655723262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Fabrizio Speziale <spezialef at yahoo.com>
Date: 2011/7/17
Subject: Perso-Indica Visiting Fellowships at the Sorbonne Nouvelle
To:



**

*Perso-Indica Visiting Fellowships at the Sorbonne Nouvelle*



The Perso-Indica Visiting Fellowships are offered at the Institut
d?Etudes Iraniennes
(IEI) of the Sorbonne Nouvelle University with the support of the research
group ?Mondes iranien et indien? (UMR 7528) and the Fondation Colette
Caillat of the Institut de France. The positions are open to outstanding
senior and promising younger scholars from any country working on a research
topic which can constitute an original and important contribution to the
Perso-Indica project. Perso-Indica is a long term project, the purpose of
which is to set up a comprehensive Critical Survey of Persian Works on
Indian Learned Traditions, encompassing the treatises and translations
produced between the 13th and the 19th century (for further details see:
http://www.perso-indica.net/). *Perso-Indica* is based in Paris (Sorbonne
Nouvelle-UMR 7528) and was launched in 2010 thanks to the financial support
of the Institut Fran?ais de Recherche en Iran (Tehran) and the Iran Heritage
Foundation (London). In addition, from 2011 onwards, it is supported by the
research funds of the programme ?CNRS - Higher Education Chairs?, Iranian
studies chair at the Sorbonne Nouvelle ? UMR 7528 ?Mondes iranien et indien?
.

* *

Each Visiting Fellowship is for a period of 1 month. Two Fellowships are
available during the academic year 2011-2012. The fellowships do not offer a
salary but they offer accommodation and a substantial contribution to travel
and living expenses.



- The Visiting Fellow will be accommodated in the apartment of the Fondation
Colette Caillat. The apartment is located at S?vres in the R?sidence du Parc
Eiffel.

- Contribution to travel expenses: up to ? 300  for scholars travelling from
Europe; up to ? 700 for scholars travelling from USA and Asia.

- Contribution to living expenses in Paris. The Visiting Fellow will receive
a contribution for meals at the rates applied by French institutions, i.e. ?
915 for thirty days.

- Fellows will be offered an office space at the IEI located in central
Paris in the building of the Sorbonne Nouvelle.



One fellowship should be held in February or March 2012, starting
1stFebruary or 1
st March. The second fellowship should be held between May and June and
allow the fellow to take part to the Perso-Indica conference held in early
June in Paris.



Complete applications should be submitted by 30 September 2011.



The Call for applications and the Application form can be downloaded from
http://www.univ-paris3.fr/etudes-iraniennes.



We would be grateful if you could post the announcement at your institution
and circulate it, also via email, among colleagues and scholars who you
think would be qualified and interested in applying for the fellowships.



Kind regards,



Fabrizio Speziale





Contact:

Fabrizio Speziale

Iranian studies chair

D?partement d??tudes arabes, h?bra?ques, indiennes et iraniennes (EAHII)

Universit? Sorbonne Nouvelle

13, rue Santeuil, 75231 Paris, Cedex 05.

Email: fabrizio.speziale at univ-paris3.fr

Website: http://www.univ-paris3.fr/etudes-iraniennes.

* *


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From julia.hegewald at UNI-BONN.DE  Tue Jul 19 11:02:38 2011
From: julia.hegewald at UNI-BONN.DE (Julia Hegewald)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 11 13:02:38 +0200
Subject: Conference on Asian Art at the University of Bonn, October 2011
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoCX=RDGueo5XU7PNsZfCCfHoR6pcG22n81htVtY7nRecw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093193.23782.2043498413643207476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues and Friends,

I would like to inform you about an international conference, entitled

In the Shadow of the Golden Age:
Art and Identity in Asia from Gandhara to the Modern Age

which my DFG-funded research team and my department are organising at The
University of Bonn from

13. - 15. October 2011.

Please find the provisional programme and a short conference description
below. Further information can be found on our webpage: www.aik.uni-bonn.de

For further information, please contact myself or Navina Sarma
(navina at uni-bonn.de). I will be circulating the final version of the
programme in late September.

Looking forward to seeing you in Bonn.

Julia Hegewald
Professor of Oriental Art History
University of Bonn



Provisional Programme
 Please note that this programme is still provisional and that changes in
the sequence of papers and in the timings may be made over the next few
months. The final programme will be available shortly before the start of
the conference.
 
 
Thursday 13th October 2011
16:00-17:00            Registration and tea
 
17:00-18:30            Keynote address: Partha Mitter
                                The Keynote Paper: the Role of History and
Memory in Modernity
 
19:00                        Conference dinner for participants
 
 
Friday 14th October 2011:
09:30-10:30            Registration
 
10:30-11:30            Susan L. Huntington
                                Buddhist Art Through a Modern Lens: A Case
of a Mistaken Scholarly
                                Trajectory
 
                                John C. Huntington
                                Bactro-Gandharan Art Beyond its Homeland
 
11:30-12:00            Coffee
 
12:00-13:00             Ciro Lo Mucio
                                The Legacy of Gandhara in Central Asian
Painting
 
                                Petra R?sch
                                 Illusionary Narratives: The Deconstruction
of the Tang Dynasty as the
                                ?Golden Age? of Chan Buddhism in China.
 
13:00-14:30            Lunch
 
14:30-15:30            William A. Southworth
                                Iconoclasm and Temple Transformation at
Angkor from the 13th to 15th
                                Centuries
 
                                Tiziana Lorenzetti
                                Political and Social Dimension as Reflected
in the Medieval Sculptures of
                                South India: Confrontations, antagonism and
identity
 
15:30-16:00            Tea
 
16:00-17:00            Mallica Kumbera Landrus
                                Trans-Cultural Temples: Identity and
Practice in Goa
 
                                Sarah Shaw
                                Art and Narrative in Changing Conditions:
Southern Buddhist temple art as an
                                accommodation of the new and diverse
 
17:00-17:30            Drinks
 
17:30 - 18:30           Professorial Inaugural Lecture: Julia A. B. Hegewald
                                Golden Age or Kali-Yuga?: The Changing
Fortunes of Jaina Art and Identity
                                in Karnataka
 
19:00                       Conference dinner for participants
 
 
Saturday 15th October 2011:
09:30-10:30             Jennifer Howes
                                Indian Company Painting: 1780 to 1820
 
                                Eva-Maria Troelenberg
                                The ?Golden Age? and the Secession:
Approaches to Alterity in early 20th
                                Century World Art


10:30-11:00            Coffee
 
11:00-12:30            Parul Dave Muckerji
                                Who is afraid of Utopia? Contemporary Indian
Artists and Their Retakes on
                                ?Golden? age
 
                                Nalini Balbir
                                Old Texts, New Images: Illustrating the
?vet?mbara Jain ?gamas today
 
                                Christoph Emmrich
                                Loss, Damage, Repair and Prevention in the
Historiography of Newar Religious
                                Artefacts
 
12:30-14:00            Lunch
 
14:00-15:15            Regina H?fer
                                ?Buddha at hotmail? - Contemporary Tibetan Art
goes Global
 
                                Daniel Redlinger (IOA, The University of
Bonn)
                                        Building for the brothers?
Indo-Islamic architectural citations in the recent
                                        architecture of South Arabia
 
                                Concluding session
 
15:15-15:45            Tea
 
15:45-18:00            Coach to Cologne and visit to Rautenstrauch-Joest
Museum



Conference Abstract:
In the Shadow of the Golden Age:
Art and Identity in Asia from Gandhara to the Modern Age
 
This international conference brings together specialists in the visual arts
and humanities working on material from a wide range of periods and regions
throughout Asia, the Islamic world and the Western diaspora. Instead of
concentrating on the so-called ?high points? and ?golden ages? of art, which
have so far stood generally at the centre of art-historical enquiries, this
symposium focuses on visual expressions of confrontation with the ?other,?
struggle or isolation during times of change. These challenging but
artistically fertile periods were marked by intense efforts by communities
in search for new identities. Through their art and frequently through the
re-use of old symbols in new settings they succeeded in redefining
themselves so as to strengthen their religious, cultural or political
position. In the history of art, these less investigated phases raise
issues, which hold the promise of new significant contributions to the
subject.
 
What happened to Gandharan art after its main phase of flowering came to an
end in its traditional heartland? How does Hindu temple architecture react
to a majority Christian cultural environment in Goa? In which ways do new
rulers and religions, e.g. in medieval South India and at Angkor, relate to
the sacred places and icons of previous cultures and religious groups and
how do the disposed and dispossessed deal with their loss and react to the
new?
The confrontation with the ?other? has been particularly pronounced during
periods of colonisation throughout Asia. How did British colonial officials
and Indian artists commissioned by them represent the different facets of
the empire, how was world art exhibited and interpreted in the West and how
were (and are?) categories such as ?masterpiece? or ?golden age? employed to
classify and judge art?
A further particularly fertile area of enquiry is the modern age in which
many traditions (religious, regal or social) appear to be threatened by
globalisation and changes in value. The diverse examples of modern day
artistic expressions taken from Arabia, India, Nepal and Thailand to be
presented during this conference, however, suggest impressive acts of
survival and creative adaptation, which enable continuity and the endurance
of forms, meanings and practices under new disguises.

-- 
Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald
Professor of Oriental Art History
Head of Department
Universit?t Bonn
Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften (IOA)
Abteilung f?r Asiatische und Islamische Kunstgeschichte
Adenauerallee 10
D ? 53113 Bonn
Germany

Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de
Tel. 0049-228-73 7213
Fax. 0049-228-73 4042



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From hellwig7 at GMX.DE  Tue Jul 19 14:58:12 2011
From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 11 15:58:12 +0100
Subject: Citations in the Sanskrit corpus (II)
Message-ID: <161227093197.23782.3606123487421425725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list,

as an addition to the last update of the DCS, I uploaded a tutorial that 
describes how groups of strongly citing texts can be detected in the Sanskrit 
corpus using methods from Digital Humanities. Details and data are accessible 
at

	http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/index.php?
contents=tech_cit_001


Best,

Oliver Hellwig
-------------------
PD Dr. Oliver Hellwig
South-Asia Institute, University of Heidelberg
Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
69120 Heidelberg
Germany




From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jul 19 18:27:07 2011
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 11 20:27:07 +0200
Subject: Conference: "Philology in the digital age"
Message-ID: <161227093200.23782.8946893487988245090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

http://www.zde.uni-wuerzburg.de/no_cache/tei_mm_2011/about/

DW


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From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jul 20 08:01:28 2011
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 11 10:01:28 +0200
Subject: new etexts at SARIT
Message-ID: <161227093203.23782.2632794011536450838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'm pleased to announce some additions to the SARIT repository of Indic
e-text editions.

The new editions are of:

   - Carakasa?hit?
   - A????gasa?graha
   - Ratnak?rtinibandh?vali

A full list of available texts is given here <http://tinyurl.com/bpprco> (or
just go to http://sarit.indology.info and press "search" without entering
anything).

As with all the texts in SARIT, the above works can be searched with
strategies from simple word-searches to complex multi-criterion searches.
KWIC indexes can be generated automatically.  And all works can be
downloaded or read online in HTML, PDF or XML (TEI) format.

All texts have also been installed in a Github repository as previously
announced.  This is an experimental service for intelligently managing
updates and changes to these e-texts as they evolve in time through
enrichment and correction.

With many thanks to Patrick Mc Allister for technical support,

Best,
Dominik Wujastyk
SARIT


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From heike.moser at UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE  Wed Jul 20 08:17:44 2011
From: heike.moser at UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (Heike Moser)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 11 10:17:44 +0200
Subject: Kav=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=AD_im_=E1=B9=9Agveda?=
Message-ID: <161227093205.23782.1482724421995420210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Publication announcement:

K?hler, Frank: Kav? im ?gveda. Dichtung, Ritual und Sch?pfung im
fr?hvedischen Denken
Aachen: Shaker 2011
ISBN: 978-3-8440-0121-1
Language: German
388 pages

Kav?- ranks among the central concepts in the world view of the early
Vedic poets. This study offers an analysis of this term in the ?gveda.
All references of kav?- have been translated and interpreted in order
to obtain a consistent understanding of its meaning.

For further information please see the following link:
http://www.shaker.de/de/content/catalogue/index.asp?lang=de&ID=8&ISBN=978-3
-8440-0121-1&search=yes




-------------------

Dr. Heike Moser
Scientific Coordinator (AOI) & Assistant Professor (Indology)
 
Eberhard Karls Universit?t Tuebingen
Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies (AOI)
Dept. of Indology and Comparative Religion
Gartenstr. 19 ? 72074 Tuebingen ? Germany
Phone +49 7071 29-74005 ? Mobile +49 176 20030066 ?  Fax +49 7071 29-2675
heike.moser at uni-tuebingen.de

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/fakultaeten/philosophische-fakultaet/fachbereic
he/aoi/indologie-vgl-religionswissenschaft/mitarbeiter/heike-moser.html




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM  Wed Jul 20 18:00:11 2011
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 11 19:00:11 +0100
Subject: Article sought
Message-ID: <161227093208.23782.12403838935508221368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

Does any person have a copy they would kindly share with me of:

W.G. Bolle?: "Adda or the Oldest Extant Dispute between Jains and Heretics" 
PART 02

Journal of Indian Philosophy 27 (1999) 411-437

Many thanks in advance,

Stephen Hodge




From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jul 20 20:35:15 2011
From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 11 22:35:15 +0200
Subject: probably no comment is the best comment
Message-ID: <161227093210.23782.4235848515909977278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14218503

-- 
J. Silk
Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37
Doelensteeg 16
2311 VL Leiden
The Netherlands


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From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM  Wed Jul 20 22:07:16 2011
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 11 23:07:16 +0100
Subject: Article sought
Message-ID: <161227093214.23782.8501618384338805211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

OK, many thanks to everybody who sent me a copy ~ I've neough now to paper 
the wall with !

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 7:00 PM
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article sought


> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Does any person have a copy they would kindly share with me of:
>
> W.G. Bolle?: "Adda or the Oldest Extant Dispute between Jains and 
> Heretics" PART 02
>
> Journal of Indian Philosophy 27 (1999) 411-437
>
> Many thanks in advance,
>
> Stephen Hodge 




From jkirk at SPRO.NET  Sat Jul 23 19:29:06 2011
From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 11 13:29:06 -0600
Subject: Query
In-Reply-To: <898520333d47b59bef31db2ac0ed660f@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <161227093220.23782.17097740822766171468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 
Please post any replies to list.

Thanks,
Joanna Kirkpatrick



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 13:57:34 -0500
From: Patrick Olivelle <jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk

Could the pa??itasabh? enlighten me on Sa?kar?a?a and his possible association with tribals, robbers, and liquor? He is mentioned within this kind of context in the Artha??stra, 13.3.54. Thanks.

Patrick Olivelle




From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Sat Jul 23 18:57:34 2011
From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 11 13:57:34 -0500
Subject: Query
Message-ID: <161227093217.23782.195304285472816473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could the pa??itasabh? enlighten me on Sa?kar?a?a and his possible association with tribals, robbers, and liquor? He is mentioned within this kind of context in the Artha??stra, 13.3.54. Thanks.

Patrick Olivelle




From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU  Sun Jul 24 12:36:21 2011
From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 11 07:36:21 -0500
Subject: article search
In-Reply-To: <87DAA1AE-13CB-4100-99B9-24276C180F52@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227093228.23782.7518832828427138054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear friends,

I would be grateful to receive pdf-s of the following,
if available:

Jacque May, La philosophie bouddhique idealiste,
Asiatische Studien 25 (1971): 265-323. [It is available 
on SEALS, but, so far as I can see, can only be
downloaded page by page.]

Lambert Schmithausen, The Ch'eng wei shih lun on the
existence of the external world. IIBS.

with thanks in advance,
Matthew

Matthew T. Kapstein
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies
The University of Chicago Divinity School
Directeur d'?tudes
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris




From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU  Sun Jul 24 13:09:51 2011
From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 11 08:09:51 -0500
Subject: thank you
Message-ID: <161227093231.23782.11414032877294898579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am deeply grateful to Isabelle Ratie, Andrey Klebanov,
and Harunaga Isaacson, who all responded
to my request for the articles
by May and Schmithausen almost instantaneously. There is
no need for further assistance with this particular
search, but thanks, too, to all those who may have
been thinking to respond as well.

Matthew T. Kapstein
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies
The University of Chicago Divinity School
Directeur d'?tudes
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris




From asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI  Sun Jul 24 07:52:47 2011
From: asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 11 10:52:47 +0300
Subject: Samkarsana's connection with liquor
Message-ID: <161227093223.23782.10144630724879260519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sa?kar?a?a and his connection with liquor see pp. 365-6 and 369 in:

Parpola, Asko, 2002. Panda?? and S?t?: On the historical background of  
the Sanskrit epics. Journal of the American Oriental Society 122 (2):  
361-373.

In the above paper, I am arguing that Sa?kar?a?a/Balar?ma partly goes  
back to one of the A?vins/N?satyas; his original Indo-Iranian drink  
was honey-beer, see pp. 39-41 in:

Parpola, Asko, 2005. The N?satyas, the chariot and Proto-Aryan  
religion. Journal of Indological Studies 16 & 17 (2004-2005): 1-63.  
Kyoto.

In a publication that is just coming out, I am discussing at length  
B?larama/Sa?kar?a?a as the divine drinker of palm wine, who in this  
role has replaced the wild ass (as recorded in the Dhenukavadha myth  
of Hariva??a 57), the thirsty wild ass as the drinker par excellence,  
his connection with the wine palm, with the mare-headed demon who  
drinks so much ocean water as to cause the ebb of tide, and his  
Harappan-Dravidian background:

Parpola, Asko, and Juha Janhunen, 2011. On the Asiatic wild asses  
(Equus hemionus & Equus kiang) and their vernacular names: New revised  
version. Pp. 59-124 in: Toshiki Osada and Hiroshi Endo (eds.),  
Linguistics, archaeology and the human past: Occasional paper 12.  
Kyoto: Indus Project, Research Institute for Humanity and Nature.

With best regards, Asko Parpola

Quoting JKirkpatrick <jkirk at SPRO.NET>:

>
> Please post any replies to list.
>
> Thanks,
> Joanna Kirkpatrick
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query
> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 13:57:34 -0500
> From: Patrick Olivelle <jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>
> Could the pa??itasabh? enlighten me on Sa?kar?a?a and his possible  
> association with tribals, robbers, and liquor? He is mentioned  
> within this kind of context in the Artha??stra, 13.3.54. Thanks.
>
> Patrick Olivelle
>
>




From asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI  Sun Jul 24 08:18:41 2011
From: asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 11 11:18:41 +0300
Subject: correction
In-Reply-To: <20110724105247.938411x6m4hvjwpb.aparpola@webmail.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <161227093226.23782.4941596684560573415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry, the other editor is Hitoshi Endo and not Hiroshi Endo:

>
> Parpola, Asko, and Juha Janhunen, 2011. On the Asiatic wild asses  
> (Equus hemionus & Equus kiang) and their vernacular names: New  
> revised version. Pp. 59-124 in: Toshiki Osada and Hiroshi Endo  
> (eds.), Linguistics, archaeology and the human past: Occasional  
> paper 12. Kyoto: Indus Project, Research Institute for Humanity and  
> Nature.
>




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jul 24 16:13:53 2011
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 11 12:13:53 -0400
Subject: Asoka's statues
Message-ID: <161227093234.23782.12203008582485330957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear All,

over the past few months I  asked some colleagues involved with early Indian sculpture
whether they could show me a good pdf of the Asoka statue at Kaganhalli, Sannati, Gulbarga, Karnataka.
I have a low resolution one but look for a better one. 

This sculpture clearly identifies the king in question as Raya Asoka (in fairly early post-Asokan Brahmi script, from the Satavahana period).

SEE: also <http://wikimapia.org/#lat=16.8354276&lon=76.9343269&z=18&l=0&m=b>
See also the faint cover of Puratattva/Indian Archaeology in 1998/9 (I think)

----------------

Also, some 10 years ago, the BBC broadcast that another statue of Asoka had been found in Orissa -- but we have not heard anything additional about it so far. Another Orissa stunt (like finding the real Lumbini in Orissa)?
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1646907.stm>

Please let us know, and, if you have a good pdf, please send it to my address (as the lists usually strip all attachments from email messages)

A good weekend, still,

MIchael WItzel
> ============
> Michael Witzel
> witzel at fas.harvard.edu
> <www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm>
> Wales Prof. of Sanskrit &
> Director of Graduate Studies,
> Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University
> 1 Bow Street,
> Cambridge MA 02138, USA
> 
> phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571;
> my direct line:  617- 496 2990











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From hellwig7 at GMX.DE  Sun Jul 24 18:01:07 2011
From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 11 19:01:07 +0100
Subject: New version of the DCS
Message-ID: <161227093241.23782.8829560067139086223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list,

a new version of the Digital Corpus of Sanskrit is available at http://kjc-
fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/index.php.

While the database remains unchanged in this version, the user interface 
now contains a more sophisticated function for searching for collocations. 
You start by selecting one lexeme (e.g., rAma), and the corpus proposes all 
other lexemes that are found in the same sentences as rAma (e.g., 
aklishta). By adding new lexemes to the search path (rAma + aklishta), it 
is possible to track topics and phrases effectively.

A more detailed overview of how to use this function can be found at http://
kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/index.php?
contents=help_collocations.


Best, 
Oliver Hellwig

--------------
PD Dr. Oliver Hellwig
South Asia Institute, University of Heidelberg
Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
69120 Heidelberg
Germany




From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jul 24 17:18:46 2011
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 11 19:18:46 +0200
Subject: article search
In-Reply-To: <20110724073621.APY61570@mstore02.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227093237.23782.11183567654844510320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 24 July 2011 14:36, <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
> [It is available
> on SEALS, but, so far as I can see, can only be
> downloaded page by page.]
>

SEALS does let you download full articles.  On
this<http://retro.seals.ch/digbib/voltoc?rid=ast-002:1971:25&e=4&id=&id2=&id3=#n4>page,
for example, click the icon to the left of the title.  Once you click
through to the first page of the article then, yes, you can only go
page-by-page.

DW


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From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE  Mon Jul 25 08:23:21 2011
From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 11 10:23:21 +0200
Subject: Samkarsana's connection with liquor
Message-ID: <161227093245.23782.3374122585015275469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Artha/saastra passage is discussed by Andreas Bigger, in his book

Balaraama im Mahaabhaarata: seine Darstellung im Rahmen des Textes 
und seiner Entwicklung, Otto Harrassowitz Verlag, Freiburger Beitr?ge 
zur Indologie vol. 30, 1998, pp. 5 sq.

http://books.google.be/books?id=2d_ZoFiQ5oYC

http://www.indologie.uni-goettingen.de/cgi-bin/read/bin/webconnector.pl?uri=ldap://localhost:389/cn=2-729,ou=Purana-active,ou=Purana,dc=uni-goettingen,dc=de;lang=de

With best wishes,
Christophe Vielle

>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 10:52:47 +0300
>From: Asko Parpola <asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI>
>Subject: [INDOLOGY] Samkarsana's connection with liquor
>
>
>On Sa?kar?a?a and his connection with liquor see pp. 365-6 and 369 in:
>
>Parpola, Asko, 2002. Panda?? and S?t?: On the historical background 
>of the Sanskrit epics. Journal of the American Oriental Society 122 
>(2): 361-373.
>
>In the above paper, I am arguing that Sa?kar?a?a/Balar?ma partly 
>goes back to one of the A?vins/N?satyas; his original Indo-Iranian 
>drink was honey-beer, see pp. 39-41 in:
>
>Parpola, Asko, 2005. The N?satyas, the chariot and Proto-Aryan 
>religion. Journal of Indological Studies 16 & 17 (2004-2005): 1-63. 
>Kyoto.
>
>In a publication that is just coming out, I am discussing at length 
>B?larama/Sa?kar?a?a as the divine drinker of palm wine, who in this 
>role has replaced the wild ass (as recorded in the Dhenukavadha myth 
>of Hariva??a 57), the thirsty wild ass as the drinker par 
>excellence, his connection with the wine palm, with the mare-headed 
>demon who drinks so much ocean water as to cause the ebb of tide, 
>and his Harappan-Dravidian background:
>
>Parpola, Asko, and Juha Janhunen, 2011. On the Asiatic wild asses 
>(Equus hemionus & Equus kiang) and their vernacular names: New 
>revised version. Pp. 59-124 in: Toshiki Osada and Hitoshi Endo 
>(eds.), Linguistics, archaeology and the human past: Occasional 
>paper 12. Kyoto: Indus Project, Research Institute for Humanity and 
>Nature.
>
>With best regards, Asko Parpola
>
>Quoting JKirkpatrick <jkirk at SPRO.NET>:
>
>>
>>Please post any replies to list.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Joanna Kirkpatrick
>>
>>
>>
>>-------- Original Message --------
>>Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query
>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 13:57:34 -0500
>>From: Patrick Olivelle <jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
>>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>>
>>Could the pa??itasabh? enlighten me on Sa?kar?a?a and his possible 
>>association with tribals, robbers, and liquor? He is mentioned 
>>within this kind of context in the Artha??stra, 13.3.54. Thanks.
>>
>>Patrick Olivelle


-- 
http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle
http://belgianindology.blogs.lalibre.be/
http://www.uclouvain.be/356389.html

--
Sign-up to Dropbox using the following link and get 2.25 gigabytes of
storage free.
http://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTEwOTE3Nzg1OQ


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From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jul 26 13:04:57 2011
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 11 15:04:57 +0200
Subject: Major public row about digital archives, JSTOR,              and the high price of online copyright articles
Message-ID: <161227093249.23782.8929935536399861551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

   - http://goo.gl/yQ3Eg
   - http://signalnews.com/jstor-academic-articles-pirate-bay-617


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From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Thu Jul 28 14:26:18 2011
From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 11 09:26:18 -0500
Subject: A Question
In-Reply-To: <CAEgrCzCJqouwqMo394Akw-mWH6ttXMfh7iHYTOXNjydCNn1EBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093259.23782.13027497934318740725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have this book, and I think it is the same edition -- a reprint of his original translations of the edicts into ENGLISH, published by Kessinger. No Sanskrit!!


On Jul 28, 2011, at 8:54 AM, Artur Karp wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> 
> Has someone actually seen the book:
> 
> V. Smith (ed.) Edicts of Asoka (Sanskrit Edition)
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/8121505895/ref=rdr_ext_sb_ti_hist_3
> 
> 
> I want to buy it, provided, however, it's really a translation of
> Asoka Edicts into Sanskrit.
> 
> The paperback editions of the book do not contain any Sanskrit
> translations, just plain English in fancy fonts.
> 
> 
> Thank you and regards,
> 
> Artur Karp




From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA  Thu Jul 28 16:54:18 2011
From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 11 09:54:18 -0700
Subject: A Question
In-Reply-To: <10546_1311861291_1311861291_CAEgrCzCJqouwqMo394Akw-mWH6ttXMfh7iHYTOXNjydCNn1EBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093262.23782.3787056307988670457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Skt rendering of Asokan inscriptions is found in;

Srinivasa Murti, G. and Krishna Aiyangar, A.N. 1950. Edicts of As'oka (Priyqdars'in). Adyar: Adyar Library. The Adyar Library Series no. 72. 

Sen, Amulyachandra. 1956. Asoka's edicts. With a pref. by Suniti Kumar Chatterji. Calcutta : Published for the Institute of Indology by the Indian Publicity Society, [1956]. Institute of Indology series, no. 7.


ashok aklujkar 


On 2011-07-28, at 6:54 AM, Artur Karp wrote:

> ...  a translation of
> Asoka Edicts into Sanskrit.




From emstern at VERIZON.NET  Thu Jul 28 14:38:46 2011
From: emstern at VERIZON.NET (Elliot M. Stern)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 11 10:38:46 -0400
Subject: A Question
In-Reply-To: <CAEgrCzCJqouwqMo394Akw-mWH6ttXMfh7iHYTOXNjydCNn1EBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093256.23782.9618824947519906757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The book is described as a facsimile edition published in 1999. Probably not a Sanskrit translation. 

Sent from my iPhone:
267-240-8418

Elliot



On Jul 28, 2011, at 9:54, Artur Karp <karp at UW.EDU.PL> wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> 
> Has someone actually seen the book:
> 
> V. Smith (ed.) Edicts of Asoka (Sanskrit Edition)
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/8121505895/ref=rdr_ext_sb_ti_hist_3
> 
> 
> I want to buy it, provided, however, it's really a translation of
> Asoka Edicts into Sanskrit.
> 
> The paperback editions of the book do not contain any Sanskrit
> translations, just plain English in fancy fonts.
> 
> 
> Thank you and regards,
> 
> Artur Karp




From athr at LOC.GOV  Thu Jul 28 18:23:02 2011
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 11 14:23:02 -0400
Subject: A Question
In-Reply-To: <CAEgrCzCJqouwqMo394Akw-mWH6ttXMfh7iHYTOXNjydCNn1EBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093265.23782.3567512784108957021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Artur,

There appear to be two publications translating the edicts into Sanskrit but not mentioning Smith, according to my library's online catalog:

LC control no.:       95909046 
Type of material:  Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)
Personal name:     Bhat?t?a, Jana?rdana.
Main title:        As?oqake dharmalekha [microform] / Jana?rdana Bhat?t?a
                      ; bhu?mika? lekhaka Narendradeva.
Edition:           1. sam?skaran?a.
Published/Created: Ka?s?i? : Jn?anaman?d?ala Ka?rya?laya, 1980-  
                      [1923-
Description:       v. <1   > ; 18 cm.
Summary:           Study with Prakrit text, Sanskrit translation and
                      grammatical interpretation of the inscriptions of edicts
                      issued by Asoka, King of Magadha, fl. 259 B.C.
Notes:             Master microform held by: ICRL.
                   Hindi, Prakrit, and Sanskrit.
Additional formats:
                   Microfilm. New Delhi : Library of Congress Office ; Chicago
                      : Available from Center for Research Libraries, 1995-  
                      .  On 1 microfilm reel with other items ; 35 mm. (SAMP
                      early 20th-century Indian books project ; item 21532).
Subjects:          Asoka, King of Magadha, fl. 259 B.C. 
                   Inscriptions, Prakrit.
                   Prakrit languages--Grammar.
Series:            SAMP early 20th-century Indian books project ; item 21532.
LC classification: Microfilm CSL-HIN-168 (P)
CALL NUMBER:       Microfilm CSL-HIN-168 (P) So Asia
                   Copy 1
-- Request in:     Asian Reading Room (Jefferson, LJ150)
================================================================================

LC control no.:       58015474 
Type of material:  Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)
Personal name:     As?oka, King of Magadha, fl. 259 B.C. 
Main title:        Asoka's edicts, by Amulyachandra Sen. With a pref. by
                      Suniti Kumar Chatterji.
Published/Created: Calcutta, Published for the Institute of Indology by the
                     Indian Publicity Society [1956]
Related names:     Sen, Amulyachandra, ed.
Description:       xiv, 170 p. illus., maps. 26 cm.
Notes:             Text in Prakrit, Sanskrit, and English.
                   Bibliography: p. [xiii]-xiv.
Subjects:          India--History--Maurya dynasty, ca. 322 B.C.-ca. 185 B.C.
Series:            Institute of Indology series, no. 7
LC classification: DS451.5 .A23 1956
CALL NUMBER:       DS451.5 .A23 1956
                   Copy 1
-- Request in:     Jefferson or Adams Building Reading Rooms

=================

I see a probable spelling error or two in the record which I will get corrected.

WorldCat shows a single copy of a second ed. of the first book, published Dilli, Pablikesansa Divizana, 1957, in a single volume. This is in Chicago.

However, it is possible what is offered is a Hindi translation of Smith, which someone has identified as Sanskrit from the Nagari script.  I cannot locate online a Hindi or Sanskrit translation of Smith, but Western libraries would not buy such a work and Indian libraries are not on OCLC/WorldCat yet, for the most part.

WWW.used.addall.com shows this title with a reference to Amazon.com, but with the additional information that it was from  Munshiram Manoharlal, being published in 1992.  Perhaps you could ask Munshiram < http://www.mrmlonline.com > if that is indeed what it was.


Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator
South Asia Team
Asian Division
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540-4810
USA
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.

 




From karp at UW.EDU.PL  Thu Jul 28 13:54:43 2011
From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 11 15:54:43 +0200
Subject: A Question
Message-ID: <161227093252.23782.18310587174473084275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear All,


Has someone actually seen the book:

V. Smith (ed.) Edicts of Asoka (Sanskrit Edition)


 http://www.amazon.com/dp/8121505895/ref=rdr_ext_sb_ti_hist_3


I want to buy it, provided, however, it's really a translation of
Asoka Edicts into Sanskrit.

The paperback editions of the book do not contain any Sanskrit
translations, just plain English in fancy fonts.


Thank you and regards,

Artur Karp




From Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR  Thu Jul 28 19:26:42 2011
From: Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR (=?utf-8?Q?G=C3=A9rard_Huet?=)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 11 21:26:42 +0200
Subject: A Question
In-Reply-To: <60DCCBE4-C041-4C2E-BC5A-7EFDD7CE9647@ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <161227093268.23782.9599507931805726233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Les inscriptions d'Asoka", traduites et comment?es par Jules Bloch. Paris, Les Belles Lettres, 1950. 
This contains the decipherments of the inscriptions, in standard romanization with diacritics, according to various epigraphists. For some inscriptions, there are as many as 6 versions according to the various sources, with ample linguistic notes comparing the forms to pali and buddhist sanskrit cognates. A rather literal French translation is provided.
It has been reprinted in 2007, but the Amazon price is stiff - $65.46 
http://www.amazon.com/inscriptions-dAsoka-French-Jules-Bloch/dp/2251720154
GH




From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Thu Jul 28 19:51:34 2011
From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 11 21:51:34 +0200
Subject: 2 new publications
In-Reply-To: <CA67DF75-35AD-4189-8F84-0C0607AAA98B@fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <161227093271.23782.6887490497619655704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

happy to announce:

Judith A. Lerner & Nicholas Sims-Williams (eds.)
Seals, sealings and tokens from Bactria to Gandhara (4th to 8th century
CE) with contributions by Aman ur Rahman and Harry Falk.
?sterreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften, Phil.-Hist. Klasse,
Denkschriften, 421 = Ver?ffentlichungen der Numismatischen Kommission, 52
= Studies in the Aman ur Rahman Collections, 2.
Wien 2011, 222 p.
ISBN 978-3-7001-6897-3
Brochure, DIN A4
EUR 69
--------------------------------------

Aman ur Rahman & Harry Falk
Seals, sealings and tokens from Gandhara
Monographien zur indischen Arch?ologie, Kunst und Philologie 21 = Studies
in the Aman ur Rahman Collection, 1.
Wiesbaden: Reichert Verlag, 238 p.
ISBN 978-3-89500-819-1
hard-bound
EUR 85.




From karp at UW.EDU.PL  Fri Jul 29 09:34:52 2011
From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 11 11:34:52 +0200
Subject: A Question
In-Reply-To: <CAEgrCzANneiZZpdYBCm7y4oeNvyd+SznRfP=c+0=M8WAWE0q3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093274.23782.15439768817240890721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Patrick, Ashok, Elliot, Allen, Gerard, Manish,

My great thanks for your bibliographical suggestions. Am going to the
University Library now, miracles do happen, don't they ---


Regards,

Artur




From karp at UW.EDU.PL  Fri Jul 29 14:32:22 2011
From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 11 16:32:22 +0200
Subject: A Question
In-Reply-To: <CAEgrCzAMeXDd5TzFzbeetPy4CuB4P4JMNzeW7fXp+LyjU8jVag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093277.23782.3933655712119998153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Am going to the
> University Library now, miracles do happen, don't they ---


Dear Friends,

Miracles do happen, yes. Today a modest one, but still. As it turned
out, my Deptt's library has Amulyachandra Sen's 1956 book on Asoka's
Edicts.

>?From a blurb: "This volume gives epigraphically authentic versions of
the standard texts of the Inscriptions together with English
translations, brief notes in the light of latest researches and
philologically sound Sanskritized  versions of the texts, in
scientific transliteration in Roman type".

A gift from the Indian Council of Cultural Relations.

Also D.C. Sircar's 1957 "Inscriptions of A?oka", published by the
Publication Division, Ministry of Information & Broadcasting, Govt. of
India. 85 pages, Introduction plus English translation of the Edicts.

Thanks once more,

Artur




From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jul 29 15:23:14 2011
From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 11 20:53:14 +0530
Subject: A Question
In-Reply-To: <60DCCBE4-C041-4C2E-BC5A-7EFDD7CE9647@ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <161227093281.23782.14487850761619716074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends,
The two books are available at the Central Library, Visva Bharati too.
One might find interest in the following piece of information. I had to render some of the inscriptions of Asoka into Sanskrit for teaching at the class. Old Persian Inscriptions, Avestan passages and MIA inscriptions and texts are very often taught in India with Sanskrit renderings. Late Professor Sukumar Sen taught us Old Iranian (Avesta,Darius and Cyrus)?at the Cacutta University with Sanskrit rendering. Later Professor S.R.Banerjee did the same for his students.
Best
DB?

--- On Thu, 28/7/11, Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA> wrote:


From: Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] A Question
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Date: Thursday, 28 July, 2011, 4:54 PM


Skt rendering of Asokan inscriptions is found in;

Srinivasa Murti, G. and Krishna Aiyangar, A.N. 1950. Edicts of As'oka (Priyqdars'in). Adyar: Adyar Library. The Adyar Library Series no. 72. 

Sen, Amulyachandra. 1956. Asoka's edicts. With a pref. by Suniti Kumar Chatterji. Calcutta : Published for the Institute of Indology by the Indian Publicity Society, [1956]. Institute of Indology series, no. 7.


ashok aklujkar 


On 2011-07-28, at 6:54 AM, Artur Karp wrote:

> ...? a translation of
> Asoka Edicts into Sanskrit.


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From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jul 30 09:05:13 2011
From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 11 11:05:13 +0200
Subject: praa.naayaama again
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin1XkHOE1RAfU5P6brN55W4wcv81+h34M6BYaCc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093284.23782.7197458745458789728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list,

After the interesting responses I received on and off list to my query about recaka, p?raka and kumbhaka in March, I am returning with another question about pr???y?ma.

Although it is commonly divided into three parts, recaka, p?raka and kumbhaka, the Nayas?tra of the Ni?v?satattvasa?hit? divides pr???y?ma into four, the fourth being something it calls supra??nta.

n?bhy?? h?dayasa?c?r?n mana? cendriyagocar?t|
pr???y?ma? caturthas tu supra??ntas tu vi?ruta?|| 4:113||

?There is a fourth breath-exercise which is called Supra??nta [achieved] by moving [the vital energy] from the heart into the navel and [by moving] the mind away from the sense-objects.?

This fourth part of pr???y?ma is found also in the Svacchandatantra, which has drawn a great deal upon the Ni?v?sa, and in the Tantrasadbh?vatantra, which has drawn in turn upon the Svacchanda.  And Nirajan Kafle has pointed out to me that the fourth division is to be found also in the Dharmaputrik?, a text of the ?ivadharma corpus (Dharmaputrik? 1:19):

p?raka? kumbhaka? caiva recakas tadanantaram
pra??nta? caiva vij?eya? pr???y?ma? caturvidha?.

Is such a fourth pr???y?ma to be found in any other traditions of yoga ?

Dominic Goodall
?cole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient,
Paris




From torzsokjudit at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jul 30 21:20:50 2011
From: torzsokjudit at HOTMAIL.COM (Judit Torzsok)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 11 21:20:50 +0000
Subject: praa.naayaama again
In-Reply-To: <DA564F0F-06D2-4E7B-BC47-D044BE939DEC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093292.23782.963264087504022087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


This fourth phase is also mentioned in Siddhayoge"svariimata 7.21, which calls it pra"saanta and claims that it is mental (maanasa). More detailed (nondual) explanation is given in the Tantraaloka + Viveka 17.87ff, trying to read this practice into the Maaliniivijayottara (which, however, does not seem to have it). Abhinavagupta understands that the practice starts at the muulaadhaara and goes up to the dvaada"saanta. Although the Siddhayoge"svariimata usually speaks of 3 parts of praa.naayaama (praa.naayaamatraya in 17.20 as well as elsewhere, e.g. in 19.2) when it prescribes the purification of the body, it adds this "fourth" part here, in 7.21, as something particularly associated with the seed syllable of Paraa, in/ with which one must keep the breath with kumbhaka.
JT

> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:05:13 +0200
> From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] praa.naayaama again
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> 
> Dear list,
> 
> After the interesting responses I received on and off list to my query about recaka, p?raka and kumbhaka in March, I am returning with another question about pr???y?ma.
> 
> Although it is commonly divided into three parts, recaka, p?raka and kumbhaka, the Nayas?tra of the Ni?v?satattvasa?hit? divides pr???y?ma into four, the fourth being something it calls supra??nta.
> 
> n?bhy?? h?dayasa?c?r?n mana? cendriyagocar?t|
> pr???y?ma? caturthas tu supra??ntas tu vi?ruta?|| 4:113||
> 
> ?There is a fourth breath-exercise which is called Supra??nta [achieved] by moving [the vital energy] from the heart into the navel and [by moving] the mind away from the sense-objects.?
> 
> This fourth part of pr???y?ma is found also in the Svacchandatantra, which has drawn a great deal upon the Ni?v?sa, and in the Tantrasadbh?vatantra, which has drawn in turn upon the Svacchanda.  And Nirajan Kafle has pointed out to me that the fourth division is to be found also in the Dharmaputrik?, a text of the ?ivadharma corpus (Dharmaputrik? 1:19):
> 
> p?raka? kumbhaka? caiva recakas tadanantaram
> pra??nta? caiva vij?eya? pr???y?ma? caturvidha?.
> 
> Is such a fourth pr???y?ma to be found in any other traditions of yoga ?
> 
> Dominic Goodall
> ?cole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient,
> Paris
 		 	   		  


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From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK  Sat Jul 30 20:23:40 2011
From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 11 22:23:40 +0200
Subject: praa.naayaama again
In-Reply-To: <DA564F0F-06D2-4E7B-BC47-D044BE939DEC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093288.23782.11966656252391545110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominic Goodall wrote:
>Is such a fourth pr???y?ma [i.e., supra??nta] to be found in any other traditions of yoga ?

The Tibetan system of pranayama linked with the Candali practice (Tib. gtum mo), which originates from the Hevajra and other Tantras, likewise has four steps, which are standard in more or less all Tibetan sources on the topic. The terms for two of them seem to correspond with two of the terms you mention, but the fourth term does certainly not correspond to suprazanta. So, this posting may be of very little use to you, but for curiosity's sake I shall list them here nevertheless. The relevant verse from the Bka'-dpe, being the earliest root-text for the N'a-ro Chos-drug system in Tibet (i.e., "the six doctrines of N'a ro pa") says:

rngub dang dgang dang gzhil ba dang/ /mda' ltar 'phang dang rnam pa bzhi/ / 

"There are four steps (rnam pa bzhi - *cathurvidha): inhaling (rngub), filling (dgang), expelling (gzhil ba), and ejecting like an arrow (mda' ltar 'phang)."

Concerning the centrality of the Bka'-dpe text as a source for the early Tibetan yoga tradition (ca. 12th century onwards), see my recent article "Prolegomenon to the Six Doctrines of Na ro pa: Authority and Tradition", which I can send you off-list, if needed. 

The Hevajratantra I.xi.3, speaking of one of the "four gazes", attests Sanskrit equivalents for some of these Tibetan terms, and indeed also has the word prazAntaka, which is reminiscient of your suprazAnta, in the same context (Snellgrove, 1959.2:40):

pAtanA recakanaiva kuMbhakena vazIkaret//
pUrakeNaiva tv AkRSTiH prazAntakena stambhanA// (3) 

Tibetan version:
'byung ba nyid kyis ltung bar byed// rnub pa yis ni dbang du byed//
dgang ba yis ni dgug pa nyid// zhi ba yis ni rengs par byed// (3)

Snellgrove's translation:
"Overthrowing is accompanied by exhaling, subduing by inhaling, conjuring forth by holding the breath and petrifying by the tranquilized pose. 

Happy hunting for further attestations and parallels!

Sincerely,
Tim

Dr. Ulrich Timme Kragh
Gonda Fellow, IIAS, Leiden




From e.ciurtin at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jul 31 08:24:59 2011
From: e.ciurtin at GMAIL.COM (Eugen Ciurtin)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 11 11:24:59 +0300
Subject: Major public row about digital archives, JSTOR,              and the high price of online copyright articles
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cd5eiDGa07trMquBaNsBbMr5oNiEfD82sabpB_sscQzNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093296.23782.11580478974021537889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dominik,

Thank you for mentioning this. Irrespective of the intricate claims made by
these authors, it may be worth noting there are here analogous
arguments regarding pirate legitimacy which somehow survived from a history
of 17th-18th European ideas about pirate/brigand practice, including in
colonial oceans. However, more about electronic storage, copyright issues
and the cost of newer knowledge in South Asian / Buddhist Studies research
is to be found in a splendid contribution by Marcus Bingenheimer -
'Collaborative Editions and Translations Projects in the Era of Digital
Texts', in Konrad Klaus (ed.), *Translating Buddhist Chinese Texts: Problems
and Prospects*, Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 2010: 21-43 (without reviews up to
now?). It is a relief for younger or not well connected or indeed all
researchers to conveniently follow grand scholars like e.g. Johannes
Bronkhorst or Guy Stroumsa or yourself - as they made readily available for
free their recent contributions.

kind regards
Eugen

2011/7/26 Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>

>
>    - http://goo.gl/yQ3Eg
>    - http://signalnews.com/jstor-academic-articles-pirate-bay-617
>
>
>


-- 
Dr E. Ciurtin
Secretary of the Romanian Association for the History of Religions

Publications Officer of the European Association for the Study of Religions
www.easr.eu

Lecturer & Secretary of the Scientific Council
Institute for the History of Religions, Romanian Academy
Calea 13 Septembrie no. 13 sect. 5, Bucharest 050711
Phone: 00 40 733 951 953


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From palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Jul 31 16:20:35 2011
From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 11 12:20:35 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?The_use_of_retroflex__approximant_=E1=B8=BB_in_Ja______________iminiya_Sama_Veda_in__Kerala?=
Message-ID: <161227093310.23782.11005323559813280028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



In Tamil and Malayalam some words with original ? are hypercorrected and pronounced with ?. 


Examples include the following


Ta. ??v?r>??v?r (See http://www.linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~chevilla/FestSchrift/supa_9d.pdf)
Ta. k??vi > k??vi (See Comparative Dravidian Phonology by Kamil Zvelebil, 1970, p. 141)
Ma. *??cca > ??cca (DEDR 5157)


Given that Jaimin?ya S?ma Vedic pronunciation by Malayalam-speaking Nambudiri brahmins has i??, I wonder if the Sanskritists would consider that to be a case of hypercorrection for original i??. 


Thanks in advance.


Regards,
Palaniappan


  










 
 
=


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From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jul 31 10:56:45 2011
From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 11 12:56:45 +0200
Subject: SV: [INDOLOGY] praa.naayaama again
In-Reply-To: <79FCCAF7C75EB045B63C1FDFDB0E38B21A64E1AD81@post>
Message-ID: <161227093301.23782.1637015025085249554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear all,

Many thanks indeed for all these helpful pointers !

When I first scanned through the various passages (to which may be added also the C11th Tattvaratnaavaloka and its autocommentary, by Vaagii"svarakiirti, and Sa.mvarodayatantra 19:30, both of which use the expression pra"saantaka), I had the impression that there were several different notions of a fourth praa.naayaama that might have been added independently.  But one label (for Supra??nta, Pra??nta and Pra??ntaka are clearly, in essence, the same name), which I had thought rare, turns out to be shared by several early ?aiva sources and a few Buddhist tantric ones.

So now I wonder whether the various notions of the 4th praa.naayaama do not after all all start from Yogas?tra 2:51 (baahyaabhyantaravi.sayaak.sepii caturtha.h), which is (for me) obscure because it uses that rather multivalent verb aak.sip. (Does it mean ?pervade?, as the Vivara.na interprets, or ?examine? as Bhojadeva supposes, or something else again?)

What I mean is that perhaps there was after all one original conception of a 4th praa.naayaama: a profound super-kumbhaka that is not measured out but that is felt to come to exist, after long practice, as a state that underlies all three other praa.naayaamas.

As for the name sa.mgha.t.taka/sa.mgha.taka in the Siddhasiddhaantapaddhati, it perhaps reflects that all the other 3 are grouped or fused in the fourth. 

I can make nothing of ?ejecting like an arrow?.  Could the Tibetan be interpreted in any other way? How is pra"saantaka rendered in Tibetan translation when it occurs in the Hevajratantra ?

In sum, even though I don't really quite understand what is meant by Supra??nta, I feel I know a lot more about it thanks to the interesting messages of Hartmut Buescher, Ulrich Kragh, Judit T?rzs?k and others.

With thanks,
Dominic Goodall




On 30-Jul-2011, at 3:09 PM, Hartmut Buescher wrote:

> 
>> Although [pr???y?ma] is commonly divided into three parts, recaka, p?raka and kumbhaka, ...
> 
> Pata?jali (PYS II.51) actually indicates a fourth one
> 
>> Is such a fourth pr???y?ma to be found in any other traditions of yoga ?
> 
> e.g., the Siddhasiddh?ntapaddhati II. 35 (ed. Gharote/Pai, Lonavla 2005)
> likewise defines pr???y?ma in terms of 4 lak?a?as; it reads:
> 
> pr???y?ma iti pr??asya sthirat? / 
> recaka-p?raka-kumbhaka-sa?gha??akakara??ni catv?ri pr???y?malak?a??ni //
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Hartmut Buescher
> 
> 
> ________________________________________
> Fra: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] P&#229; vegne af Dominic Goodall [dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM]
> Sendt: 30. juli 2011 11:05
> Til: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Emne: [INDOLOGY] praa.naayaama again
> 
> Dear list,
> 
> After the interesting responses I received on and off list to my query about recaka, p?raka and kumbhaka in March, I am returning with another question about pr???y?ma.
> 
> Although it is commonly divided into three parts, recaka, p?raka and kumbhaka, the Nayas?tra of the Ni?v?satattvasa?hit? divides pr???y?ma into four, the fourth being something it calls supra??nta.
> 
> n?bhy?? h?dayasa?c?r?n mana? cendriyagocar?t|
> pr???y?ma? caturthas tu supra??ntas tu vi?ruta?|| 4:113||
> 
> ?There is a fourth breath-exercise which is called Supra??nta [achieved] by moving [the vital energy] from the heart into the navel and [by moving] the mind away from the sense-objects.?
> 
> This fourth part of pr???y?ma is found also in the Svacchandatantra, which has drawn a great deal upon the Ni?v?sa, and in the Tantrasadbh?vatantra, which has drawn in turn upon the Svacchanda.  And Nirajan Kafle has pointed out to me that the fourth division is to be found also in the Dharmaputrik?, a text of the ?ivadharma corpus (Dharmaputrik? 1:19):
> 
> p?raka? kumbhaka? caiva recakas tadanantaram
> pra??nta? caiva vij?eya? pr???y?ma? caturvidha?.
> 
> Is such a fourth pr???y?ma to be found in any other traditions of yoga ?
> 
> Dominic Goodall
> ?cole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient,
> Paris




From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE  Sun Jul 31 11:38:24 2011
From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 11 13:38:24 +0200
Subject: SV: [INDOLOGY] praa.naayaama again
In-Reply-To: <BF7B511D-CB52-4935-8030-F7DBB68421C1@GMAIL.COM>
Message-ID: <161227093304.23782.5362126104951766846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dominic,

> How is pra"saantaka rendered in Tibetan translation when it occurs  
> in the Hevajratantra ?

pra??ntaka in Hevajratanta I.11.3d has been translated in its literal  
meaning as zhi ba (Snellgrove 1959 II: 41); zhi ba "to become quiet"  
(= Skt. ??nta).

Best,
Roland Steiner

-- 
Dr. Roland Steiner
Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg
Seminar f?r Indologie
Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9
D-06099 Halle (Saale)
Tel.: +49-345-55-23656
Fax.: +49-345-55-27211
URL: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/
E-Mail: roland.steiner at indologie.uni-halle.de




From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jul 31 16:11:47 2011
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 11 18:11:47 +0200
Subject: Major public row about digital archives, JSTOR,              and the high price of online copyright articles
In-Reply-To: <CAAeSjSLeoRhvs5OMP7xreZAhNnw0W8=4zoq_d7N+rqu9DurrZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227093307.23782.15119761761415144289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks for this very interesting reference, Eugen.  I found it online (!)
here:

   -
   http://mbingenheimer.net/publications/bingenheimer.budTranslationDigitalAge.2010.pdf


It's a brave new world, that's all.

Best,
Dominik


On 31 July 2011 10:24, Eugen Ciurtin <e.ciurtin at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Dominik,
>
> Thank you for mentioning this. Irrespective of the intricate claims made by
> these authors, it may be worth noting there are here analogous
> arguments regarding pirate legitimacy which somehow survived from a history
> of 17th-18th European ideas about pirate/brigand practice, including in
> colonial oceans. However, more about electronic storage, copyright issues
> and the cost of newer knowledge in South Asian / Buddhist Studies research
> is to be found in a splendid contribution by Marcus Bingenheimer -
> 'Collaborative Editions and Translations Projects in the Era of Digital
> Texts', in Konrad Klaus (ed.), *Translating Buddhist Chinese Texts:
> Problems and Prospects*, Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 2010: 21-43 (without
> reviews up to now?). It is a relief for younger or not well connected or
> indeed all researchers to conveniently follow grand scholars like
> e.g. Johannes Bronkhorst or Guy Stroumsa or yourself - as they made readily
> available for free their recent contributions.
>
> kind regards
> Eugen
>
> 2011/7/26 Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
>
>>
>>    - http://goo.gl/yQ3Eg
>>    - http://signalnews.com/jstor-academic-articles-pirate-bay-617
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Dr E. Ciurtin
> Secretary of the Romanian Association for the History of Religions
>
> Publications Officer of the European Association for the Study of Religions
> www.easr.eu
>
> Lecturer & Secretary of the Scientific Council
> Institute for the History of Religions, Romanian Academy
> Calea 13 Septembrie no. 13 sect. 5, Bucharest 050711
> Phone: 00 40 733 951 953
>


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