From adheesh1 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 16:01:37 2011 From: adheesh1 at GMAIL.COM (Adheesh Sathaye) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 11 09:01:37 -0700 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093326.23782.11738079742219618967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear James, In the epics, the phrase "car?cara" (mobile/immobile) is quite common--see for example Bhagavad-g?t? 10.39: yac c?pi sarvabh?t?n?? b?ja? tad aham arjuna | na tad asti vin? yat sy?n may? bh?ta? car?caram || All best wishes, Adheesh ---- Adheesh Sathaye Department of Asian Studies University of British Columbia On Aug 5, 2011, at 8:36 AM, James Hartzell wrote: > HI > > A colleague has asked me the following question, and I thought some on this list might readily know the answer: > > 'Do you have in Sanskrit a conceptual dichotomy that corresponds to living/non-living or animate/inanimate? > What exactly does the taxonomy look like? (is the opposition something like human vs. animals vs plants vs material objects, or human and animal vs. plants vs material objects or human and animal and plant vs. material objects, or otherwise?)' > > Cheers > James Hartzell > Guest Researcher > CIMeC, Center for Mind/Brain Sciences > University of Trento > Mattarello, TN, Italy > > From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Fri Aug 5 07:40:30 2011 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 11 09:40:30 +0200 Subject: Help Message-ID: <161227093313.23782.17200679051544336570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone happen to have a Sanskrit index to K.N. Dave's Birds in Sanskrit Literature? I have the older version with only the English index. I should appreciate it if someone could send it to me. Many thank, Ken Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Asian Studies Section Artillerivej 86 DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Ph: +45 3532 8951 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 15:36:44 2011 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 11 11:36:44 -0400 Subject: taxonomy question Message-ID: <161227093317.23782.10869628779273497661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> HI A colleague has asked me the following question, and I thought some on this list might readily know the answer: 'Do you have in Sanskrit a conceptual dichotomy that corresponds to living/non-living or animate/inanimate? What exactly does the taxonomy look like? (is the opposition something like human vs. animals vs plants vs material objects, or human and animal vs. plants vs material objects or human and animal and plant vs. material objects, or otherwise?)' Cheers James Hartzell Guest Researcher CIMeC, Center for Mind/Brain Sciences University of Trento Mattarello, TN, Italy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Fri Aug 5 18:39:32 2011 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 11 11:39:32 -0700 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: <6326_1312558618_1312558618_CAKA8X40yMDNKtjPrmpeP6seMPGO4hYg7nDoJwdkxoeGo+M1mJw@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227093340.23782.14666601200714444058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> cetana (or sacetana) and acetana are found. anta.h-sa.mj;na and bahi.h-sa.mj;na should also be taken into account. Lambert Schmithausen's writings on the sentience of plants are useful in this regard. See also Albrecht Wezler. 1987. "On the term anta.h-sa.mj;na." ABORI LXVIII: 111-131. ashok aklujkar On 2011-08-05, at 8:36 AM, James Hartzell wrote: > 'Do you have in Sanskrit a conceptual dichotomy that corresponds to living/non-living or animate/inanimate? > From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 16:05:49 2011 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 11 12:05:49 -0400 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093329.23782.7981276242507701975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks Adheesh, I'd forgotten about "car?cara" (mobile/immobile), and thanks for the reference. Can we state then that what we modern folks call inanimate objects, as well as plants, fit the acara category, and then all animals and humans fit the cara category? Or are there other distinctions? My linguist colleague has clarified that she's looking specifically for the linguistic taxonomy of this. Cheers James On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Adheesh Sathaye wrote: > Dear James, > > In the epics, the phrase "car?cara" (mobile/immobile) is quite common--see > for example Bhagavad-g?t? 10.39: > yac c?pi sarvabh?t?n?? b?ja? tad aham arjuna | > na tad asti vin? yat sy?n may? bh?ta? car?caram || > > > All best wishes, > > Adheesh > > > ---- > Adheesh Sathaye > Department of Asian Studies > University of British Columbia > > On Aug 5, 2011, at 8:36 AM, James Hartzell wrote: > > > HI > > > > A colleague has asked me the following question, and I thought some on > this list might readily know the answer: > > > > 'Do you have in Sanskrit a conceptual dichotomy that corresponds to > living/non-living or animate/inanimate? > > What exactly does the taxonomy look like? (is the opposition something > like human vs. animals vs plants vs material objects, or human and animal > vs. plants vs material objects or human and animal and plant vs. material > objects, or otherwise?)' > > > > Cheers > > James Hartzell > > Guest Researcher > > CIMeC, Center for Mind/Brain Sciences > > University of Trento > > Mattarello, TN, Italy > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Aug 5 17:47:35 2011 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 11 12:47:35 -0500 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093335.23782.4872688216427331694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The term ja.da is used, at least in Buddhist tantric sources (esp. in the Kaalacakra cycle), to mean "inanimate" or, perhaps more accurately, "insentient." The exact opposite is aja.da. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From m.b.jones at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Fri Aug 5 18:24:27 2011 From: m.b.jones at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Michael Brattus Jones) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 11 13:24:27 -0500 Subject: taxonomy question Message-ID: <161227093337.23782.18232123839160666052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is an interesting binary classification in two levels, though it doesn't situate humans in juxtaposition to the insentient, just to gods and animals. The Kau?ika S?tra mentions "the mother of gods and mortal beings," then, unpacking the latter term, "mortal beings," it specifies "mother of animals and men." bhartr? dev?n?m uta marty?n?? bhartr? praj?n?m uta m?nu????m | (Kau?S_13,14[106].7) [transliteration taken from Arlo Griffiths' GRETIL etext - thank you!] I hope it helps. Michael Brattus Jones mbjones at utexas.edu PhD Student, Dept. of Asian Studies University of Texas at Austin From: Herman Tull To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Friday, August 5, 2011 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question CU 5.10.8 sets up a taxonomy of sorts in its reference to the ?small things? (kshudrANi) that continually live and die in the round of rebirth, in distinction to men who attain one of the two paths after death (path of the gods, path of the fathers). Herman Tull From: James Hartzell Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 12:05 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question Thanks Adheesh, I'd forgotten about "car?cara" (mobile/immobile), and thanks for the reference. Can we state then that what we modern folks call inanimate objects, as well as plants, fit the acara category, and then all animals and humans fit the cara category? Or are there other distinctions? My linguist colleague has clarified that she's looking specifically for the linguistic taxonomy of this. Cheers James On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Adheesh Sathaye wrote: Dear James, In the epics, the phrase "car?cara" (mobile/immobile) is quite common--see for example Bhagavad-g?t? 10.39: yac c?pi sarvabh?t?n?? b?ja? tad aham arjuna | na tad asti vin? yat sy?n may? bh?ta? car?caram || All best wishes, Adheesh ---- Adheesh Sathaye Department of Asian Studies University of British Columbia On Aug 5, 2011, at 8:36 AM, James Hartzell wrote: > HI > > A colleague has asked me the following question, and I thought some on this list might readily know the answer: > > 'Do you have in Sanskrit a conceptual dichotomy that corresponds to living/non-living or animate/inanimate? > What exactly does the taxonomy look like? (is the opposition something like human vs. animals vs plants vs material objects, or human and animal vs. plants vs material objects or human and animal and plant vs. material objects, or otherwise?)' > > Cheers > James Hartzell > Guest Researcher > CIMeC, Center for Mind/Brain Sciences > University of Trento > Mattarello, TN, Italy > From hwtull at MSN.COM Fri Aug 5 17:26:40 2011 From: hwtull at MSN.COM (Herman Tull) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 11 13:26:40 -0400 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093332.23782.2252830308586707797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> CU 5.10.8 sets up a taxonomy of sorts in its reference to the ?small things? (kshudrANi) that continually live and die in the round of rebirth, in distinction to men who attain one of the two paths after death (path of the gods, path of the fathers). Herman Tull From: James Hartzell Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 12:05 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question Thanks Adheesh, I'd forgotten about "car?cara" (mobile/immobile), and thanks for the reference. Can we state then that what we modern folks call inanimate objects, as well as plants, fit the acara category, and then all animals and humans fit the cara category? Or are there other distinctions? My linguist colleague has clarified that she's looking specifically for the linguistic taxonomy of this. Cheers James On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Adheesh Sathaye wrote: Dear James, In the epics, the phrase "car?cara" (mobile/immobile) is quite common--see for example Bhagavad-g?t? 10.39: yac c?pi sarvabh?t?n?? b?ja? tad aham arjuna | na tad asti vin? yat sy?n may? bh?ta? car?caram || All best wishes, Adheesh ---- Adheesh Sathaye Department of Asian Studies University of British Columbia On Aug 5, 2011, at 8:36 AM, James Hartzell wrote: > HI > > A colleague has asked me the following question, and I thought some on this list might readily know the answer: > > 'Do you have in Sanskrit a conceptual dichotomy that corresponds to living/non-living or animate/inanimate? > What exactly does the taxonomy look like? (is the opposition something like human vs. animals vs plants vs material objects, or human and animal vs. plants vs material objects or human and animal and plant vs. material objects, or otherwise?)' > > Cheers > James Hartzell > Guest Researcher > CIMeC, Center for Mind/Brain Sciences > University of Trento > Mattarello, TN, Italy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Aug 5 18:57:41 2011 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 11 14:57:41 -0400 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: <333C8CD8-22A8-4CD6-9252-25981801865F@ubc.ca> Message-ID: <161227093342.23782.12349887675081785776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Schmithausen's books recommended by Ashok, are: LC control no.: 2005353063 LCCN permalink: http://lccn.loc.gov/2005353063 Type of material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal name: Schmithausen, Lambert. Main title: The problem of the sentience of plants in earliest Buddhism / Lambert Schmithausen. Published/Created: Tokyo : International Institute for Buddhist Studies, 1991. Description: 121 p. ; 26 cm. ISBN: 4906267246 Notes: Includes bibliographical references (p. 107-115) and index. Subjects: Plants in the Tripit?aka. Plants --Religious aspects --Buddhism. Buddhism --Doctrines. Series: Studia philologica Buddhica. Monograph series ; 6 LC control no.: 2010327203 LCCN permalink: http://lccn.loc.gov/2010327203 Type of material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal name: Schmithausen, Lambert. Main title: Plants in early Buddhism and the far eastern idea of the Buddha-nature of grasses and trees / Lambert Schmithausen. Spine title: Plants in early Buddhism Published/Created: Lumbini : Lumbini International Research Institute, 2009. Related names: Lumbini International Research Institute. Description: 390 p. ; 25 cm. ISBN: 9789937217163 Notes: Includes bibliographical references ([341]-365) and index. Includes words in Chinese and Japanese. Subjects: Nature --Religious aspects --Buddhism. Plants --Religious aspects --Buddhism. Buddhism --Doctrines. Also, these that came up on a computer search might be useful: LC control no.: 93906672 LCCN permalink: http://lccn.loc.gov/93906672 Type of material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal name: Malika, Harakis?ana. Main title: Vr?kshom? mem? ji?va?tma? / Harakis?ana Malika. Edition: Sam?skaran?a 1. Published/Created: Ajamera : S?ri?mati? Paropaka?rin?i? Sabha?, 1993. Description: 102 p. ; 19 cm. ISBN: Rs10.00 Summary: Author?s argument that plants have souls. Notes: In Hindi. Subjects: Jiva. Plants --Psychic aspects. Future life --Jainism. Immortality. Evolution --Religious aspects. LC control no.: 79912637 LCCN permalink: http://lccn.loc.gov/79912637 Type of material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal name: Vidya?prabha?kara, Muni. Main title: Stha?vara-ji?va-mi?ma?m?sa? : artha?t, ?Vr?ksha jar?a haim?? na?maka pustaka ki? sami?ksha? / Muni Vidya?prabha?kara. Edition: 1. sam?skaran?a. Published/Created: Gurukula Jhajjhara : Haraya?n?a? Sa?hitya Sam?stha?na, 1970. Description: 150 p. ; 23 cm. Summary: An inquiry into the souls of plants. Notes: Cover title. In Hindi. Imprint corrected by label on cover: Gurukula Vidya?pi?t?ha, Rohataka. Includes bibliographical references. Subjects: S?a?stri?, Ompraka?s?a. Vr?ksha jar?a haim?. Arya-samaj --Doctrines. Plants --Psychic aspects. Evolution --Religious aspects. Future life --Jainism. Immortality. The last appears to be a response to a book by Omprakasa Sastri, "Vrksha jara haim," [Plants are without consciousness], which I can find in no library. There is a chapter "Dealing with sentience and violence in Hindu, Jain and Buddhist texts" in: LCCN permalink: http://lccn.loc.gov/2010018516 Type of material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal name: Hall, Matthew, 1980- Main title: Plants as persons : a philosophical botany / Matthew Hall. Published/Created: Albany : State University of New York Press, c2011. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator South Asia Team Asian Division Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., S.W. Washington, DC 20540-4810 USA tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Aug 5 16:00:25 2011 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 11 18:00:25 +0200 Subject: GRETIL update #390 Message-ID: <161227093319.23782.5993137042675511472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Yama-Smrti This is the shortest version of the Yama-Smrti, containing 78 verses. (Plain text version, version with pada markers, pada index) __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm From martin.gansten at PBHOME.SE Fri Aug 5 16:15:58 2011 From: martin.gansten at PBHOME.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 11 18:15:58 +0200 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093323.23782.15383020623023404777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The universal Sanskrit dichotomy seems to be moving/nonmoving (car?cara, sth?vara-ja?gama, etc). In astrological texts one sometimes sees a division into mineral, vegetable and animal (dh?tu, m?la, j?va); but I?m not sure if that division is indigenous. Martin Gansten James Hartzell skrev 2011-08-05 17:36: > HI > > A colleague has asked me the following question, and I thought some on > this list might readily know the answer: > > 'Do you have in Sanskrit a conceptual dichotomy that corresponds to > living/non-living or animate/inanimate? > What exactly does the taxonomy look like? (is the opposition something > like human vs. animals vs plants vs material objects, or human and > animal vs. plants vs material objects or human and animal and plant > vs. material objects, or otherwise?)' > > Cheers > James Hartzell > Guest Researcher > CIMeC, Center for Mind/Brain Sciences > University of Trento > Mattarello, TN, Italy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andra.kleb at GOOGLEMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 21:03:01 2011 From: andra.kleb at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (Andrey Klebanov) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 11 23:03:01 +0200 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: <15546DDB-7144-461D-AA6F-297C531F3E36@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <161227093345.23782.8905689532198539241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list! my sincere apologies for a series of my blank emails, which I have just noticed! not sure, how it could happen and whether it might be a bug in the "versions" feature of the new OS X Lion. what I thought to mention was a quotation from Su?rutasa?hit? that came to my mind by reading the word "dichotomy" and then Dr. Gangsten's mentioning of sth?vara-ja?gama. It also [most probably] places the human being (the object of medical applications and the main subject of medical science) - puru?a - outside of this classification. SS 1.1.22: ... loko hi dvividha? sth?varo ja?gama? ca dvividh?tmaka ev?gneya? saumya? ca ... tatra puru?a? pradh?na? tasyopakara?am anyat, tasm?t puru?o 'dhi??h?nam || and later on the origin of o?adhi-s 1.1.29 t?s?? sth?var?? caturvidh?? vanaspatayo v?k?? v?rudha o?adhaya iti | .... 1.1.30 ja?gam?? khalv api catuvidh?? jar?yuj???ajasvedajodbhijj?? | (just as a side-note: the distinction of sth?vara-ja?gama is more commonly found in medical treatises as a classification of poisons by the type of their carrier, see e.g. chapter 2 and 3 of SS Kalpasth?na) with my repeated apologies best Andrey On 05.08.2011, at 21:41, Andrey Klebanov wrote: > of > > On 05.08.2011, at 20:24, Michael Brattus Jones wrote: > >> Here is an interesting binary classification in two levels, though it doesn't situate humans in juxtaposition to the insentient, just to gods and animals. >> The Kau?ika S?tra mentions "the mother of gods and mortal beings," then, unpacking the latter term, "mortal beings," it specifies "mother of animals and men." >> >> bhartr? dev?n?m uta marty?n?? bhartr? praj?n?m uta m?nu????m | (Kau?S_13,14[106].7) >> [transliteration taken from Arlo Griffiths' GRETIL etext - thank you!] >> >> I hope it helps. >> >> Michael Brattus Jones >> mbjones at utexas.edu >> PhD Student, Dept. of Asian Studies >> University of Texas at Austin >> >> From: Herman Tull >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Sent: Friday, August 5, 2011 12:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question >> >> CU 5.10.8 sets up a taxonomy of sorts in its reference to the ?small things? (kshudrANi) that continually live and die in the round of rebirth, in distinction to men who attain one of the two paths after death (path of the gods, path of the fathers). >> >> Herman Tull >> >> From: James Hartzell >> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 12:05 PM >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question >> >> Thanks Adheesh, I'd forgotten about "car?cara" (mobile/immobile), and thanks for the reference. >> >> Can we state then that what we modern folks call inanimate objects, as well as plants, fit the acara category, and then all animals and humans fit the cara category? Or are there other distinctions? >> >> My linguist colleague has clarified that she's looking specifically for the linguistic taxonomy of this. >> >> Cheers >> James >> >> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Adheesh Sathaye wrote: >> >> Dear James, >> >> In the epics, the phrase "car?cara" (mobile/immobile) is quite common--see for example Bhagavad-g?t? 10.39: >> yac c?pi sarvabh?t?n?? b?ja? tad aham arjuna | >> na tad asti vin? yat sy?n may? bh?ta? car?caram || >> >> >> All best wishes, >> >> Adheesh >> >> >> ---- >> Adheesh Sathaye >> Department of Asian Studies >> University of British Columbia >> >> On Aug 5, 2011, at 8:36 AM, James Hartzell wrote: >> >> > HI >> > >> > A colleague has asked me the following question, and I thought some on this list might readily know the answer: >> > >> > 'Do you have in Sanskrit a conceptual dichotomy that corresponds to living/non-living or animate/inanimate? >> > What exactly does the taxonomy look like? (is the opposition something like human vs. animals vs plants vs material objects, or human and animal vs. plants vs material objects or human and animal and plant vs. material objects, or otherwise?)' >> > >> > Cheers >> > James Hartzell >> > Guest Researcher >> > CIMeC, Center for Mind/Brain Sciences >> > University of Trento >> > Mattarello, TN, Italy >> > > From elisa.freschi at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 10:27:15 2011 From: elisa.freschi at GMAIL.COM (elisa freschi) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 11 12:27:15 +0200 Subject: taxonomy question Message-ID: <161227093348.23782.13078150433015615657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear James, I would add the distinction between "born from an uterus" (yoni-ja or jar?yuja), "born from an egg" (a??aja), "born from sweat/ warmth" (svedaja) and born from water (udbhijja). The latter group includes all sorts of plants. The four groups seem to include all living beings in common understanding, but some philosophical schools (I am thinking now of Pr?bh?k?ra M?m??s? texts specifically) oppose the view that also the latter ones are living beings and claim that they are just like stones (crystal may also grow, but are nonetheless non-living). yours elisa freschi Dr. Elisa Freschi research fellow of Sanskrit Facolt? di Studi Orientali Universit? di Roma 'La Sapienza' via Principe Amedeo 182b, 00185 Rome (Italy) fax +39 06 49385915 http://elisafreschi.blogspot.com http://uniroma.academia.edu/elisafreschi On 05/ago/11, at 19:26, Herman Tull wrote: > CU 5.10.8 sets up a taxonomy of sorts in its reference to the > ?small things? (kshudrANi) that continually live and die in the > round of rebirth, in distinction to men who attain one of the two > paths after death (path of the gods, path of the fathers). > > Herman Tull > > From: James Hartzell > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 12:05 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question > > Thanks Adheesh, I'd forgotten about "car?cara" (mobile/immobile), > and thanks for the reference. > > Can we state then that what we modern folks call inanimate objects, > as well as plants, fit the acara category, and then all animals and > humans fit the cara category? Or are there other distinctions? > > My linguist colleague has clarified that she's looking specifically > for the linguistic taxonomy of this. > > Cheers > James > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Adheesh Sathaye > wrote: > Dear James, > > In the epics, the phrase "car?cara" (mobile/immobile) is quite > common--see for example Bhagavad-g?t? 10.39: > yac c?pi sarvabh?t?n?? b?ja? tad aham arjuna | > na tad asti vin? yat sy?n may? bh?ta? car?caram || > > > All best wishes, > > Adheesh > > > ---- > Adheesh Sathaye > Department of Asian Studies > University of British Columbia > > On Aug 5, 2011, at 8:36 AM, James Hartzell wrote: > > > HI > > > > A colleague has asked me the following question, and I thought > some on this list might readily know the answer: > > > > 'Do you have in Sanskrit a conceptual dichotomy that corresponds > to living/non-living or animate/inanimate? > > What exactly does the taxonomy look like? (is the opposition > something like human vs. animals vs plants vs material objects, or > human and animal vs. plants vs material objects or human and animal > and plant vs. material objects, or otherwise?)' > > > > Cheers > > James Hartzell > > Guest Researcher > > CIMeC, Center for Mind/Brain Sciences > > University of Trento > > Mattarello, TN, Italy > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Sat Aug 6 10:59:09 2011 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 11 12:59:09 +0200 Subject: Publication Announcement (Artha=?utf-8?Q?=C5=9B_=C4=81stra?= Commentaries) Message-ID: <161227093351.23782.3956876592291546134.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just released: Studia Indologica Universitatis Halensis, Volume 2: Two Commentaries on the Artha??stra: Jayama?gal? & C??akya??k?. Critically re-edited from Harihara Sastri's Fascicle Editions by Andreas Pohlus. Halle: Universit?tsverlag 2011, pp. 200. ISBN 978-3-86977-034-5 (Hardbound) 59,00 ? Orders can be placed directly with the publishers: http://www.universitaetsverlag-halle-wittenberg.de/default/studia-indologica.html Kind regards, WS ------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From baums at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Aug 6 11:33:21 2011 From: baums at BERKELEY.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 11 13:33:21 +0200 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: <720F4A0E-ADC3-45D2-B146-06C437AB3E86@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227093353.23782.2914538418582640855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear James and Elisa, > "born from an uterus" (yoni-ja or jar?yuja), "born from an egg" > (a??aja), "born from sweat/warmth" (svedaja) and born from water > (udbhijja). The latter group includes all sorts of plants. the Buddhists have a??aja, jar?yuja, sa?svedaja and upap?duka (spontaneously born: some classes of gods, etc.). Plants are not included in this variant of the classification, but since yoni here serves as the cover term they were evidently not meant to be covered. I wonder which of the two variants of the list is primary. All best, Stefan -- Dr. Stefan Baums South and Southeast Asian Studies, UC Berkeley School of Asian Studies, Universiteit Leiden From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Sat Aug 6 11:53:32 2011 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 11 13:53:32 +0200 Subject: Publication Announcement Message-ID: <161227093356.23782.14384492972258011723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just released: Studia Indologica Universitatis Halensis, Volume 2: Two Commentaries on the Artha??stra: Jayama?gal? & C??akya??k?. Critically re-edited from Harihara Sastri's Fascicle Editions by Andreas Pohlus. Halle: Universit?tsverlag 2011, pp. 200. ISBN 978-3-86977-034-5 (Hardbound) 59,00 ? Orders can be placed directly with the publishers: http://www.universitaetsverlag-halle-wittenberg.de/default/studia-indologica.html Kind regards, WS ------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From e.ciurtin at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 11:57:00 2011 From: e.ciurtin at GMAIL.COM (Eugen Ciurtin) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 11 14:57:00 +0300 Subject: Help In-Reply-To: <259D2C5B210F304AB8B734030D5F54CB824C976646@post> Message-ID: <161227093359.23782.8950108523934317859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sometimes overlooked as not available online, another valuable publication is: Andr? Couture, "*Birds in Sanskrit Literature* de K. N. Dave: Index", *Bulletin d'?tudes Indiennes* 16 (1998), pp. 179-229. hope it helps Eugen 2011/8/5 Kenneth Zysk > Does anyone happen to have a Sanskrit index to K.N. Dave?s *Birds in > Sanskrit Literature*? I have the older version with only the English > index.**** > > I should appreciate it if someone could send it to me.**** > > ** ** > > Many thank,**** > > Ken **** > > ** ** > > Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil**** > > Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies**** > > University of Copenhagen**** > > Asian Studies Section **** > > Artillerivej 86 **** > > DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark**** > > Ph: +45 3532 8951 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk**** > > ** ** > -- Dr E. Ciurtin Secretary of the Romanian Association for the History of Religions Publications Officer of the European Association for the Study of Religions www.easr.eu Lecturer & Secretary of the Scientific Council Institute for the History of Religions, Romanian Academy Calea 13 Septembrie no. 13 sect. 5, Bucharest 050711 Phone: 00 40 733 951 953 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elisa.freschi at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 12:58:27 2011 From: elisa.freschi at GMAIL.COM (elisa freschi) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 11 14:58:27 +0200 Subject: taxonomy question Message-ID: <161227093363.23782.12171115916889659283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear James and Stefan, I should have mentioned that Pr?bh?kara authors explicitly deny the existence of "spontaneously born" bodies ?since they are nowhere to be seen (the appeal to common sense is the standard device of M?m??s? authors). As for your question, L. Schmithausen's work (see references in A. Thrasher's post) seems to confirm the idea that plants were admitted as a class of living beings in early India (including the earliest layers of the Buddhist P?li Canon) but then a general tendency to rationalisation excluded them from the field of living beings in the ??stric literature. This might have happened at an earlier stage in Buddhist *texts* (due to the historical circumstances of its being a "new" religion and of relegating myth often outside the precincts of its reflection), whereas in "Hinduism" traditions favouring the inclusion of plants have been preserved in epics, Pur??as, etc. I cannot really understand what you mean by "since yoni > here serves as the cover term they were evidently not meant to be > covered" Could you explain further? elisa freschi Dr. Elisa Freschi research fellow of Sanskrit Facolt? di Studi Orientali Universit? di Roma 'La Sapienza' via Principe Amedeo 182b, 00185 Rome (Italy) fax +39 06 49385915 http://elisafreschi.blogspot.com http://uniroma.academia.edu/elisafreschi On 06/ago/11, at 13:33, Stefan Baums wrote: > Dear James and Elisa, > >> "born from an uterus" (yoni-ja or jar?yuja), "born from an egg" >> (a??aja), "born from sweat/warmth" (svedaja) and born from water >> (udbhijja). The latter group includes all sorts of plants. > > the Buddhists have a??aja, jar?yuja, sa?svedaja and upap?duka > (spontaneously born: some classes of gods, etc.). Plants are not > included in this variant of the classification, but since yoni > here serves as the cover term they were evidently not meant to be > covered. I wonder which of the two variants of the list is > primary. > > All best, > Stefan > > -- > Dr. Stefan Baums > South and Southeast Asian Studies, UC Berkeley > School of Asian Studies, Universiteit Leiden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Sat Aug 6 13:51:07 2011 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 11 15:51:07 +0200 Subject: Publication Announcement (Honigberger) Message-ID: <161227093369.23782.15391360578676286164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To be released soon: Studia Indologica Universitatis Halensis, Band 3 Johann Martin Honigberger, Als Leibarzt am Hofe des ?L?wen vom Panjab? Ranjit Singh. Nachdruck der "Reiseerlebnisse" (Wien 1853). Hrsg. und mit einem Nachwort von J?rgen Hanneder. Halle: Universit?tsverlag 2011. pp. 720, portraits. ISBN 978-3-86977-036-9. Subscription price: 128,00 ? http://www.universitaetsverlag-halle-wittenberg.de/default/forthcoming-books.html In dem hier im deutschen Original erstmals nachgedruckten Werk ?Fr?chte aus dem Morgenlande? (1853) beschreibt der aus Siebenb?rgen stammende Mediziner J. M. Honigberger (1795?1869) seine Erlebnisse auf ausgedehnten Reisen bis nach Indien, seine Zeit am Hof von Lahore sowie seine Versuche, aus den medizinischen Systemen seiner Zeit eine Synthese zu erarbeiten, die er im medizinischen Teil seines Werks, das eine ausf?hrliche Materia medica enth?lt, darlegt. Da Honigberger sich auch die Hom?opathie aneignete und diese zumindest kurzzeitig in Indien praktizierte, gilt er zugleich als Pionier der indischen Hom?opathie. Er war einer der wenigen, die im fr?hen 19. Jahrhundert weder im Auftrag noch finanziert durch die englische East India Company oder einer Missionsgesellschaft Asien bereisten. Sein Buch ist eine Mischung aus einem landes- und kulturkundlichen Erlebnisbericht und einer durch seine Funktion als Leibarzt am Hofe bedingten einzigartigen Innenperspektive. Das lange vergriffene Werk bildet somit eine Fundgrube zur Geschichte und Kultur Nordwest-Indiens im 19. Jahrhundert unter Einschluss der Medizingeschichte, niedergelegt in einer kurzweiligen Erz?hlung, die ausbreitet, wie ein Apotheker aus dem siebenb?rgischen Kronstadt durch einen, wie er selbst schreibt, ?besonderen inneren Drang? in den Orient zog, wo er den Ursprung der Kunst, Wissenschaft und Religion vermutete. Der Herausgeber J?rgen Hanneder ist Professor f?r Indologie an der Philipps-Universit?t Marburg. Kind regards, Walter Slaje ------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Sat Aug 6 13:56:40 2011 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 11 15:56:40 +0200 Subject: Publication Announcement (Arthasastra Commentaries) Message-ID: <161227093372.23782.16369872704617587444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just released: Studia Indologica Universitatis Halensis, Volume 2: Two Commentaries on the Artha??stra: Jayama?gal? & C??akya??k?. Critically re-edited from Harihara Sastri's Fascicle Editions by Andreas Pohlus. Halle: Universit?tsverlag 2011, pp. 200. ISBN 978-3-86977-034-5 (Hardbound) 59,? EUR. http://www.universitaetsverlag-halle-wittenberg.de/default/studia-indologica.html "Es handelt sich bei dieser Ausgabe um einen Wiederabdruck der beiden nur in Teilen erhalten gebliebenen Artha??stra-Kommentare Jayama?gal? und C??akya??k?. Diese von G. Harihara Sastri besorgte Ausgabe erschien von 1953?1968 im Journal of Oriental Research, Madras. Die Jayama?gal? kommentiert Artha??stra 1.1.3?1.21.29, die C??akya??k? hingegen Artha??stra 2.1.1?3.1.47 nach der Z?hlung von Kangle." Kind regards, Walter Slaje ------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From baums at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Aug 6 16:05:09 2011 From: baums at BERKELEY.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 11 18:05:09 +0200 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093375.23782.16416341128542267271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Elisa, thanks for explaining and for the reference! > I cannot really understand what you mean by "since yoni here > serves as the cover term they were evidently not meant to be > covered" In the Buddhist sources (e.g., Sa?g?tis?tra and commentaries, AKBh), yoni is not a synonym of the jar?yu kind of birth, but all four items are considered ?yonis? in a more general meaning of ?kind of birth.? This generalization of the term for a generative organ from the animal (and human) kingdom suggests that plants were not a concern of the creators of this variant of the list. All best, Stefan -- Dr. Stefan Baums South and Southeast Asian Studies, UC Berkeley School of Asian Studies, Universiteit Leiden From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 13:08:34 2011 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (Veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 11 18:38:34 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?bmV3IHB1YmxpY2F0aW9uICAgICAgICAgICAgICDgpK3gpYLgpLfgpKPgpLjgpL7gpLDgpKTgpKTgpY3gpKTgpY0g4KS14KSq4KWN4KSw4KSV4KS+4KS24KS/4KSV4KS+IGJ5IHByb2YuIEtWICAgICAgICAgICAgICBSYW1ha3Jpc2huYW1hY2hhciB5YQ==?= Message-ID: <161227093366.23782.10968840894983999402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear all, I am happy to announce the new publication ?????????????????????? by prof. KV Ramakrishnamacharya, prof. of Vyakarana, RS Vidyapeetha Tirupati. (??????????????????????, ??????????????????????????????????? 214, ?????????????????????? 11,???????????????????????????, ???????, 2010, ??????? ??.300. ??.XXIV+353) This book aims at the critical exposition of the ?????????????? of Koundabhatta of bhattojidikshita school. ?????????????? is an important work from Vaiyakaranas dealing with philosophy of panini's grammar. this is the enlarged edition of the book ?????????????? published in 1996. chapter no. second is enlarged with newly included ?????-?????????-??????????????-??????????????????-???????????????-?????????????-?????????????????? etc. but most importantly a whole third chapter is newly included in this edition which i think is the most important point. This third chapter consists of author's critical expositions on the difficult sentences of ??????????????. this kind of exposition was long overdue, and ably authored by a teacher who taught the ??????? for over thirty years. each of the topics dealt in ??????? are critically examined in a historical way and in each point of disagreement the opinions of Naiyayikas and Meemamsakas are critically observed. I hope this work will be made a text/reference book for the Bhushanasara classes everywhere. One fine point I observed in the book in a quick glance is that prof. KV Ramakrishnamacharya deviated from tread path of traditional vaiyakaranas on Sphota. he clearly dismisses the hypothetical extra-sensory sphota and accepted the observable sphota that is ??????? ??????? ????? ?????? ?????????.... ?????????? ?????????????? ?????????? ? ???????????? ???????? ?????????????? ????? ???????????????????? ????????????? ????????? ????????????????? (??.285) true, prof. KV Ramakrishnamacharya never clinged to traditions. I request to all the senior scholars to write new works like on the difficult texts of indian hardcore shastras so the fine points of the texts observed by these senior scholars can be grasped by younger ones. -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. ?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ? ?????? ??????????????? ?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? (?.??.) From palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Aug 7 22:32:59 2011 From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 11 18:32:59 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?A_query_related_to_=C5=9A_ambuka?= Message-ID: <161227093378.23782.3495025043910233591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Brahmas?tra commentaries, in the section on the ineligibility of ??dras to attain Vedantic knowledge, does any commentator use the story of ?ambuka (who was killed by R?ma) as an example? If not, what could be the reasons? I would appreciate any comments or references. Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 08:52:42 2011 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 11 10:52:42 +0200 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: <20110806160509.GD6691@deepthought> Message-ID: <161227093381.23782.340974617932029515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All Just a note of thanks to everyone for the kind assistance with the taxonomy question; i've been away from email for a couple of days, hence the late reply. It's certainly an intriguing issue. Grazie! James On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Stefan Baums wrote: > Dear Elisa, > > thanks for explaining and for the reference! > > > I cannot really understand what you mean by "since yoni here > > serves as the cover term they were evidently not meant to be > > covered" > > In the Buddhist sources (e.g., Sa?g?tis?tra and commentaries, > AKBh), yoni is not a synonym of the jar?yu kind of birth, but all > four items are considered ?yonis? in a more general meaning of > ?kind of birth.? This generalization of the term for a generative > organ from the animal (and human) kingdom suggests that plants > were not a concern of the creators of this variant of the list. > > All best, > Stefan > > -- > Dr. Stefan Baums > South and Southeast Asian Studies, UC Berkeley > School of Asian Studies, Universiteit Leiden > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 08:33:39 2011 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 11 10:33:39 +0200 Subject: SuperHeavy Message-ID: <161227093384.23782.7488227920710160019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mick Jagger singing in Sanskrit. Now I've seen everything :-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hwtull at MSN.COM Wed Aug 10 20:38:05 2011 From: hwtull at MSN.COM (Herman Tull) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 11 16:38:05 -0400 Subject: SuperHeavy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093387.23782.13049995171373751549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You can listen to the song here: http://soundcloud.com/jerinjohn/superheavy-satyameva-jayate-a But, the verses are in hindi. Herman Tull Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 10:33:39 +0200 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Subject: [INDOLOGY] SuperHeavy To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Mick Jagger singing in Sanskrit. Now I've seen everything :-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at UW.EDU.PL Wed Aug 10 21:15:11 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 11 23:15:11 +0200 Subject: SuperHeavy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093390.23782.2130453124241439685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hindi and translation: http://lyricsdna.com/songs/lyrics/satyameva-jayate-lyrics-superheavy Artur K. From whitakjl at WFU.EDU Thu Aug 11 18:20:34 2011 From: whitakjl at WFU.EDU (Jarrod Whitaker) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 11 14:20:34 -0400 Subject: Greater Magadha Reviews and Kavi in Rgveda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093399.23782.12548085104841867555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All: 2 Issues: 1) Does anyone know of any published reviews of Bronkhorst's /Greater Magadha/? 2) My library cannot get a hold of Kohler's new book Kavi im rgveda. Dichtung, Ritual und Schoepfung im fruhvedischen Denken Book Author (ISBN/ISSN: 978-3-8440-0121-1). Here is the message: "We have exhausted all possible ILL sources. There are no libraries that own this item that are ILL suppliers; I checked in OCLC, and the ISBN you supplied does not match any records. I also searched by title and was unsuccessful in my search. If you know of an institution that has this book, please let me know and I will contact them on your behalf." Can anyone let me know how to get a copy of this new book? Do I have the details wrong? I think I took them off this list a few months back. Cheers JLW -- Jarrod L. Whitaker, Ph.D. Associate Professor, South Asian Religions Graduate Program Director Wake Forest University Department of Religion P.O. Box 7212 Winston-Salem, NC 27109 whitakjl at wfu.edu p 336.758.4162 f 336.758.4462 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Thu Aug 11 14:11:03 2011 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 11 16:11:03 +0200 Subject: GRETIL update #391 Message-ID: <161227093393.23782.13734261008501660666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Yama-Smrti: Laghuyamasmrti [99 verses] (plain text, text with pada markers, pada index) __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Thu Aug 11 17:46:57 2011 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 11 19:46:57 +0200 Subject: part of KavyaMala Series uploaded in .pdf form on Internet Archive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093395.23782.11556824328958545146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.archive.org/details/Kavya_Mala_Series_Of_Nirnaya_Sagar_Press Description Kavya Mala Series of Books of Nirnaya Sagar Press, Mumbai published during late 19th and early 20th centuries. Kavya Mala is a collection of ancient, very rare and previously unpublished Sanskrit works. Nearly 100 books were published in this series. Kavyamala Anthology Series (volumes 1 to 14) is uploaded at http://www.archive.org/details/Kavyamala_anthology_series_of_Nirnaya_sagar_press Visit sanskritebooks.blogspot.com for more Sanskrit e-books. LIST OF BOOKS UPLOADED ====================== Kavyamala Vol_ 04 - Karpuramanjari of Rajasekhara 1887 Kavyamala Vol_ 07 - Karnasundari of Bilhana 1932 Kavyamala Vol_ 08 - Dharmasarmabhyudayam of Harichandra 1933 Kavyamala Vol_ 09 - Subhadraharanam of Madhava Bhatta 1888 Kavyamala Vol_ 10 - Samaya Matrika - Kshemendra 1925 Kavyamala Vol_ 11 - Kadambarikathasara of Abhinanda 1925 Kavyamala Vol_ 14 - Parijataharanachampu of Sesha Srikrishna 1926 Kavyamala Vol_ 15 - Kavyalankara Sutras of Vamana 1926 Kavyamala Vol_ 16 - Mukaundananda Bhana of Kashipati 1889 Kavyamala Vol_ 16 - Mukundananda Bhana of Kasipati 1889 Kavyamala Vol_ 17 - Unmattaraghava of Bhaskara 1899 Kavyamala Vol_ 20 - Latakamelakaprahasanam of Sankhadhara 1923 Kavyamala Vol_ 26 - Dasavataracharitam of Kshemendra 1891 Kavyamala Vol_ 28 - Dutangadanatakam of Subhatakavi 1900 Kavyamala Vol_ 30 - Chandraprabhacharita of Viranandi 1892 Kavyamala Vol_ 31 - Vishnubhktikalpalata of Purushothama 1917 Kavyamala Vol_ 32 - Sahridayananda of Krishnananda 1930 Kavyamala Vol_ 36 - Vrittivartika of Appayya Dikshita 1892 Kavyamala Vol_ 37 - Rasasadana Bhana of Yuvaraja 1893 Kavyamala Vol_ 38 - Chitramimasa of Appayya Dikshita 1941 Kavyamala Vol_ 39 - Vidyaparinayana of Anandarya Makhi 1893 Kavyamala Vol_ 43 - Kavyanusasanam of Vagbhata 1915 Kavyamala Vol_ 46 - Vrishabhanuja Natika Of Mathuradasa 1895 Kavyamala Vol_ 46 - Vrishabhanuja Natika Of Mathuradasa 1927 Kavyamala Vol_ 50 - Alankara Shekhara of Kesava Misra 1895 Kavyamala Vol_ 51 - The Patanjali-Charita - Pt Sivadatta 1895 Kavyamala Vol_ 53 - Vanibhushana of Damodara Misra (1925) Kavyamala Vol_ 54 - Dhananjayavijaya of Kanchanacharya 1911 Kavyamala Vol_ 56 - Neminirvana of Vagbhata 1936 Kavyamala Vol_ 57 - Raghavanaishadhiya of Haradatta Suri 1926 Kavyamala Vol_ 58 - Shrangarbhushanam of Vamana Bhatta Bana 1896 Kavyamala Vol_ 63 - Sahityakaumudi of Vidyabhushana 1897 Kavyamala Vol_ 71 - Kavyanusasana of Hemachandra 1901 Kavyamala Vol_ 74 - Saugandhikaharana of Vishwanatha 1902 Kavyamala Vol_ 76 - Gangavataranam of Nilakantha Dikshita 1916 Kavyamala Vol_ 77 - Dela Rama Kathasara of Rajan & Bhatta Ahladaka 1902 Kavyamala Vol_ 78 - Sringara Sarvasva Bhana of Nalla Dikshita 1911 Kavyamala Vol_ 79 - Karna Bhushana - Gangananda 1926 Kavyamala Vol_ 82 - Subhashitaratnasandoha of Amitagati 1903 Kavyamala Vol_ 88 - Anyokti muktavali of Hamsavijaya Gani 1907 -- http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle http://belgianindology.blogs.lalibre.be/ http://www.uclouvain.be/356389.html -- Sign-up to Dropbox using the following link and get 2.25 gigabytes of storage free. http://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTEwOTE3Nzg1OQ From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Thu Aug 11 18:49:07 2011 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 11 20:49:07 +0200 Subject: Greater Magadha Reviews and Kavi in Rgveda In-Reply-To: <4E441D72.3000100@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <161227093402.23782.18396010030677510266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 11.08.2011 um 20:20 schrieb Jarrod Whitaker: > Dear All: > 2 Issues: > 1) Does anyone know of any published reviews of Bronkhorst's Greater Magadha? > > 2) My library cannot get a hold of Kohler's new book Kavi im rgveda. Dichtung, Ritual und Schoepfung im fruhvedischen Denken Book Author (ISBN/ISSN: 978-3-8440-0121-1). > > Here is the message: > "We have exhausted all possible ILL sources. There are no libraries that own this item that are ILL suppliers; I checked in OCLC, and the ISBN you supplied does not match any records. I also searched by title and was unsuccessful in my search. If you know of an institution that has this book, please let me know and I will contact them on your behalf." > > Can anyone let me know how to get a copy of this new book? Do I have the details wrong? I think I took them off this list a few months back. > Ad 2: for EUR 12.45 (around USD 18) you can get a PDF directly from the publisher: URL: (It's a non-print PDF, I guess) Ad 1: e.g. a review by Konrad Klaus, in ZDMG 161 (2011), p. 216 seq. Hope it helps Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Bibliothek Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 53113 Bonn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richard.gombrich at BALLIOL.OX.AC.UK Thu Aug 11 20:08:04 2011 From: richard.gombrich at BALLIOL.OX.AC.UK (Richard Gombrich) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 11 21:08:04 +0100 Subject: Greater Magadha Review In-Reply-To: <4E441D72.3000100@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <161227093406.23782.6717785004091484464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greater Magadha review by Alexander Wynne: https://www.h-net.org/reviews/showpdf.php?id=31537. Richard Gombrich On 11 Aug 2011, at 19:20, Jarrod Whitaker wrote: > Dear All: > 2 Issues: > 1) Does anyone know of any published reviews of Bronkhorst's Greater Magadha? > > 2) My library cannot get a hold of Kohler's new book Kavi im rgveda. Dichtung, Ritual und Schoepfung im fruhvedischen Denken Book Author (ISBN/ISSN: 978-3-8440-0121-1). > > Here is the message: > "We have exhausted all possible ILL sources. There are no libraries that own this item that are ILL suppliers; I checked in OCLC, and the ISBN you supplied does not match any records. I also searched by title and was unsuccessful in my search. If you know of an institution that has this book, please let me know and I will contact them on your behalf." > > Can anyone let me know how to get a copy of this new book? Do I have the details wrong? I think I took them off this list a few months back. > > > Cheers > JLW > -- > > Jarrod L. Whitaker, Ph.D. > Associate Professor, South Asian Religions > Graduate Program Director > > Wake Forest University > Department of Religion > P.O. Box 7212 > Winston-Salem, NC 27109 > whitakjl at wfu.edu > p 336.758.4162 > f 336.758.4462 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jneelis at WLU.CA Fri Aug 12 02:26:50 2011 From: jneelis at WLU.CA (Jason Neelis) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 11 22:26:50 -0400 Subject: Greater Magadha Review Message-ID: <161227093409.23782.12291012656628012524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition to my review in JRAS 18.3 (2008): 381-383 (DOI:10.1017/S1356186308008419), Greater Magadha has been reviewed by John Cort, Religious Studies Review 33.2 (2007): 171-172; Rudiger Schmitt, Acta Orientalia 69 (2008): 319-324; and in Orientalische Literaturzeitung 103.2 (2008): 250 ff. -Jason Neelis Wilfrid Laurier University >>> Richard Gombrich 08/11/11 4:08 PM >>> Greater Magadha review by Alexander Wynne: https://www.h-net.org/reviews/showpdf.php?id=31537. Richard Gombrich On 11 Aug 2011, at 19:20, Jarrod Whitaker wrote: > Dear All: > 2 Issues: > 1) Does anyone know of any published reviews of Bronkhorst's Greater Magadha? > > 2) My library cannot get a hold of Kohler's new book Kavi im rgveda. Dichtung, Ritual und Schoepfung im fruhvedischen Denken Book Author (ISBN/ISSN: 978-3-8440-0121-1). > > Here is the message: > "We have exhausted all possible ILL sources. There are no libraries that own this item that are ILL suppliers; I checked in OCLC, and the ISBN you supplied does not match any records. I also searched by title and was unsuccessful in my search. If you know of an institution that has this book, please let me know and I will contact them on your behalf." > > Can anyone let me know how to get a copy of this new book? Do I have the details wrong? I think I took them off this list a few months back. > > > Cheers > JLW > -- > > Jarrod L. Whitaker, Ph.D. > Associate Professor, South Asian Religions > Graduate Program Director > > Wake Forest University > Department of Religion > P.O. Box 7212 > Winston-Salem, NC 27109 > whitakjl at wfu.edu > p 336.758.4162 > f 336.758.4462 From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Aug 12 14:16:15 2011 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 11 10:16:15 -0400 Subject: ICCR setting up Sanskrit chair in Cambodia, and cultural centres in SE Asia and elsewhere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093416.23782.11081737455357423834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SCHOLARS BEWARE OF ICCR!! It is all well and good that the ICCR is setting up more centres for Indian studies. But some clarifications are needed. First, the Indian scholars chosen by ICCR seem to be expected to follow the Government of India party line. I base this on a recent incident at the University of Toronto. An ICCR visiting scholar was chairing a talk about Kashmir by a Kashmiri journalist from Srinagar in early April. Since this kind of seminar is open to the public, several Kashmiri pandits, i.e. de facto Hindutva supporters attended and began to shout down the speaker. The chair calmly tried to tell them that this was an academic, not political event, but to no avail. The discussion had to be cut short due to these interruptions. Furthermore, the chair received a strongly worded rebuke from the Indian Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Delhi, accusing her of taking sides against India, which was certainly not the case. The chair of the Asian Centre at UofT protested, but to my knowledge the ministry issued no apology neither to the chair, nor the speaker, nor the UofT. Furthermore, the visiting ICCR scholar taught one course at our university during the winter term. The course was duly remunerated in accordance with Canadian labour laws. However, the ICCR demanded - and obtained! - that all this legal remuneration from UofT be returned to them. Only then did they pay out the foreign allowance to the scholar. In other words, the University of Toronto subsidized ICCR to a tune of some $8000 + a paid for rental apartment (rather expensive in Toronto). The ICCR merely shelled out only a few hundred dollars + transport to the visiting scholar. The whole affair made India look cheap and mean. So much for the rising and shining India! Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies University of Toronto On 12-Aug-11, at 5:08 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Time of India: 'The East has been deeply influenced by India' > > The Indian Council for Cultural Relations (ICCR) has opened a > centre in the South Korean capital Seoul and set up a chair of > Sanskrit at the Preah Sihanouk Raja Buddhist University in > Cambodia. These initiatives are part of the Indian government's > 'Look East' policy. ICCR president Karan Singh talked with Shobhan > Saxena about India's growing soft power and need for more > engagement with countries in our extended neighbourhood. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 09:08:56 2011 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 11 11:08:56 +0200 Subject: ICCR setting up Sanskrit chair in Cambodia, and cultural centres in SE Asia and elsewhere Message-ID: <161227093412.23782.11482127411186649246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *Time of India: 'The East has been deeply influenced by India'* The Indian Council for Cultural Relations (ICCR) has opened a centre in the South Korean capital Seoul and set up a chair of Sanskrit at the Preah Sihanouk Raja Buddhist University in Cambodia. These initiatives are part of the Indian government's 'Look East' policy. ICCR president Karan Singh talked with Shobhan Saxena about India's growing soft power and need for more engagement with countries in our extended neighbourhood. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Aug 12 15:04:35 2011 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 11 17:04:35 +0200 Subject: Recent revisions in the GRETIL e-library Message-ID: <161227093420.23782.9096561211341122305.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please note: E-books added to the GRETIL e-library after July 5, 2011, are generated according to a modified standard. All GRETIL e-books produced before that date will be replaced with new versions in due course. It is recommended to replace e-books downloaded before July 5 with these new versions as they become available. They are easily recognizable in the catalogue by the "REVISION" notice (second line of each entry in the title list). Please, proceed as follows: 1) Open the GRETIL e-library catalogue: http://opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de/DB=1.20/LNG=EN/ 2) Click "All titles" in the left frame (grey). This will generate a chronological title list, with the most recent additions and/or revisions on top. 3) Check catalogue entries 3, 4, 9, 10, 13-15, 19 and 20 (#20 = Windisch: Geschichte der Sanskrit-Philologie, REVISION #2, 5.7.2011). [NOTE: These numbers are valid only from today, August 12, until the next addition/revision! The present entries 21 to 213 will be revised in due course. It is therefore recommended to check the OPAC regularly, or subscribe to the RSS feed by clicking the icon in the left frame of the OPAC.] 4) To download the revised PDF file(s), click the respective catalogue entry, and then click one of the two URLs at the bottom of that entry. __________________________ More information on the GRETIL e-library: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gr_elib.htm From slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU Sat Aug 13 02:38:49 2011 From: slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU (Lindquist, Steven) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 11 02:38:49 +0000 Subject: CONF (update), Alternative Ramayanas, SMU, Sept. 24th Message-ID: <161227093423.23782.9922605852193997678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please pardon x-posting. I previously announced the SARII/Asian Studies' "Alternative Ramayanas: Variations in an Epic Tradition" conference at Southern Methodist University on Sept. 24th, 2011. This email is to let you know that free registration is now open. Flier and abstracts are also available. Please see: www.smu.edu/asianstudies/events or www.sarii.org My best, Steven STEVEN LINDQUIST, PH.D. ASSISTANT PROFESSOR DIRECTOR OF ASIAN STUDIES _____________ Department of Religious Studies Southern Methodist University PO Box 750202 | Dallas | TX | 75275 http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui From athr at LOC.GOV Sat Aug 13 13:36:32 2011 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 11 09:36:32 -0400 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227093432.23782.13183015044037256603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "A sixties issue of the Polish Great Encyclopedia presented A?oka, quite consistently, as a builder of the hospitals for animals. But not only. In this famous entry he was also a builder of the hospitals for plants." Presumably only for potted plants, since digging up and moving would put a strain on plants in the ground. Or did Maurya bureaucrats, like their British Indian successors, in anticipation of transfer do their gardening in pots so their favorites could move with them to the next station? ;-) Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator South Asia Team Asian Division Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., S.W. Washington, DC 20540-4810 USA tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From athr at LOC.GOV Sat Aug 13 13:36:32 2011 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 11 09:36:32 -0400 Subject: taxonomy question Message-ID: <161227093435.23782.10622896675122165744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "A sixties issue of the Polish Great Encyclopedia presented A?oka, quite consistently, as a builder of the hospitals for animals. But not only. In this famous entry he was also a builder of the hospitals for plants." Presumably only for potted plants, since digging up and moving would put a strain on plants in the ground. Or did Maurya bureaucrats, like their British Indian successors, in anticipation of transfer do their gardening in pots so their favorites could move with them to the next station? ;-) Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator South Asia Team Asian Division Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., S.W. Washington, DC 20540-4810 USA tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From athr at LOC.GOV Sat Aug 13 13:44:27 2011 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 11 09:44:27 -0400 Subject: taxonomy question Message-ID: <161227093441.23782.15725570221928397203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Girnar Rock Edict II: PaMthesU kUpA ca khAnApita, vrachA ca ropApitA paribhogAya pasu-manusAnaM. E. Hultzsch (1925, p. 4): "On the roads wells were caused to be dug , and trees were caused to be planted for the use of cattle and men." Jules Bloch (1950, p. 95) reverses the order, for him men must go first : "[...] ? l'usage des hommes et des b?tes". Is the order of the compound in the original based on any sort of priority, or merely on style, the presumption that in a dvandva longer words should come after shorter? Doesn't paZu here, as frequently, mean "domestic mammal" rather than "animal" in general or "cattle" in particular, and refer to other animals that would go along a highway with people, such as buffalo, sheep, goats, asses, and camels? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator South Asia Team Asian Division Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., S.W. Washington, DC 20540-4810 USA tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at UW.EDU.PL Sat Aug 13 10:53:54 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 11 12:53:54 +0200 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093426.23782.8385707462483286797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, To denote living beings, A?oka's Edicts use three terms: jiva-, jIva- (skt.jIva-) pAna- (skt. prANa-) pasu-, pazu- (skt. pazu-) The distinction between pAna- and pasu-/pazu- is oftentimes blurred in translations which tend to render both of them simply as "animals". Which, in turn, helps making A?oka into a Buddhist Super-Hero, so intent on improving the lot of animals that he decided to plant trees and dig wells on the roads - for their and men's use. Girnar Rock Edict II: PaMthesU kUpA ca khAnApita, vrachA ca ropApitA paribhogAya pasu-manusAnaM. E. Hultzsch (1925, p. 4): "On the roads wells were caused to be dug , and trees were caused to be planted for the use of cattle and men." Jules Bloch (1950, p. 95) reverses the order, for him men must go first : "[...] ? l'usage des hommes et des b?tes". Other authors go for unspecified animals: Amulyachandra Sen (1956, p. 66): "[...] for the use of animals and men". D.C. Sircar (1957, p. 40): "[...] for the enjoyment of animals and men". J. Makowiecka (Polish translation of 1964, p. 5): "[...] ku po?ytkowi zwierz?t i ludzi" (for the benefit of animals and men"). J. Filipsk?, J. Vacek (Czech translation of 1970, p. 194): "[...] pro u?itek zv??at i lid?" (for the use of animals and men). And so on. Exit "cattle", as the object of state economic interest. Enter "animals". A sixties issue of the Polish Great Encyclopedia presented A?oka, quite consistently, as a builder of the hospitals for animals. But not only. In this famous entry he was also a builder of the hospitals for plants. Regards, Artur Karp Poland From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Aug 13 13:39:40 2011 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 11 13:39:40 +0000 Subject: taxonomy question Message-ID: <161227093438.23782.15519589142201784455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think the expression dupada in this context probably does extend beyond humans, though in other places, such as the P?li expression dipaduttamo or Skt. dvipad?? vara?, it is most certainly limited to humans. Madhav M. Deshpande ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] on behalf of Artur Karp [karp at UW.EDU.PL] Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 8:13 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question A?oka's Edicts again. Another broad taxonomical division appears in the text of Pillar Edict II. Delhi-Topra version (Hultzsch,line E): dupada-catupadesu pakhi-vAlicAlesu vividhe me anugahe kaTe [...]. Amulyachandra Sen's Sanskritized text: dvipada-catuSpadeSu pakSi-vAricareSu vividhaH mayA anugrahaH kRtaH [...] - and his translation: "On bipeds and quadrupeds, on birds and aquatic animals, various benefits have been conferred by me [...]". It's not clear whether the category "bipeds" includes also monkeys and apes, and whether animals such as crayfish or water insects are included in the category of "aquatic animals". Regards, Artur Karp From karp at UW.EDU.PL Sat Aug 13 12:13:59 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 11 14:13:59 +0200 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093429.23782.15248386677892361855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A?oka's Edicts again. Another broad taxonomical division appears in the text of Pillar Edict II. Delhi-Topra version (Hultzsch,line E): dupada-catupadesu pakhi-vAlicAlesu vividhe me anugahe kaTe [...]. Amulyachandra Sen's Sanskritized text: dvipada-catuSpadeSu pakSi-vAricareSu vividhaH mayA anugrahaH kRtaH [...] - and his translation: "On bipeds and quadrupeds, on birds and aquatic animals, various benefits have been conferred by me [...]". It's not clear whether the category "bipeds" includes also monkeys and apes, and whether animals such as crayfish or water insects are included in the category of "aquatic animals". Regards, Artur Karp From vjroebuck at BTINTERNET.COM Sat Aug 13 13:47:15 2011 From: vjroebuck at BTINTERNET.COM (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 11 14:47:15 +0100 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: <1A6D14A87B9BB84D9BFBF8AE65CA1DE4020C8E@its-embx-02.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227093444.23782.17732136284755594638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would have thought that in the Buddhist context it would include devas too. Valerie J Roebuck On 13 Aug 2011, at 14:39, Deshpande, Madhav wrote: > > > I think the expression dupada in this context probably does extend beyond humans, though in other places, such as the P?li expression dipaduttamo or Skt. dvipad?? vara?, it is most certainly limited to humans. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > > ________________________________________ > From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] on behalf of Artur Karp [karp at UW.EDU.PL] > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 8:13 AM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question > > A?oka's Edicts again. > > Another broad taxonomical division appears in the text of Pillar Edict II. > > Delhi-Topra version (Hultzsch,line E): dupada-catupadesu > pakhi-vAlicAlesu vividhe me anugahe kaTe [...]. > > Amulyachandra Sen's Sanskritized text: dvipada-catuSpadeSu > pakSi-vAricareSu vividhaH mayA anugrahaH kRtaH [...] > > - and his translation: "On bipeds and quadrupeds, on birds and aquatic > animals, various benefits have been conferred by me [...]". > > It's not clear whether the category "bipeds" includes also monkeys and > apes, and whether animals such as crayfish or water insects are > included in the category of "aquatic animals". > > Regards, > > Artur Karp From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 18:42:35 2011 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 11 20:42:35 +0200 Subject: None In-Reply-To: <1D525027B29706438707F336D75A279F1AB552AE84@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV> Message-ID: <161227093447.23782.45088171930724386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There's absolutely not a shred of evidence that A?oka built hospitals, by the way. This got into the secondary literature once, and has been repeated ever since. Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Vienna Austria Project: http://www.istb.univie.ac.at/caraka/ 2011/8/13 Thrasher, Allen > "A sixties issue of the Polish Great Encyclopedia presented A?oka, quite > consistently, as a builder of the hospitals for animals. But not only. In > this famous entry he was also a builder of the hospitals for plants."**** > > ** ** > > Presumably only for potted plants, since digging up and moving would put a > strain on plants in the ground. Or did Maurya bureaucrats, like their > British Indian successors, in anticipation of transfer do their gardening in > pots so their favorites could move with them to the next station? ;-)**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.**** > > Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator**** > > South Asia Team**** > > Asian Division**** > > Library of Congress**** > > 101 Independence Ave., S.W.**** > > Washington, DC 20540-4810**** > > USA**** > > tel. 202-707-3732**** > > fax 202-707-1724**** > > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of > Congress.**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at UW.EDU.PL Sat Aug 13 19:17:02 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 11 21:17:02 +0200 Subject: None In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093451.23782.2862887559478987532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 2011/8/13 Dominik Wujastyk : > There's absolutely not a shred of evidence that A?oka built hospitals, by > the way.? This got into the secondary literature once, and has been repeated > ever since. > > Dominik Exactly. But there is this legendary Vaishali Pillar Edict which "records King Asoka building hospitals for both humans and animals" See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterinary_medicine#History My sources might be already antiquated, but --- am I mistaken in remembering that the pillar in question (The Lion Pillar of Vaishali) carries no inscription? Artur From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 21:43:17 2011 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 11 23:43:17 +0200 Subject: None In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093454.23782.5371835321172528356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Artur. I've now edited the Wikipedia page and removed the reference to hospitals. Best, Dominik On 13 August 2011 21:17, Artur Karp wrote: > 2011/8/13 Dominik Wujastyk : > > There's absolutely not a shred of evidence that A?oka built hospitals, by > > the way. This got into the secondary literature once, and has been > repeated > > ever since. > > > > Dominik > > Exactly. > > But there is this legendary Vaishali Pillar Edict which "records King > Asoka building hospitals for both humans and animals" > > See: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterinary_medicine#History > > My sources might be already antiquated, but --- am I mistaken in > remembering that the pillar in question (The Lion Pillar of Vaishali) > carries no inscription? > > > Artur > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at UW.EDU.PL Sat Aug 13 22:24:28 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 11 00:24:28 +0200 Subject: None In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093458.23782.16810466473520161208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mailer Daemons seem to defend A?okan veterinary hospitals. Let me repeat my message: No trace of your intervention, Dominik --- at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterinary_medicine#History: <> - illustrated by the photo of the Vaishali Pillar: A pillar in Vaishali, India, displaying edicts of Emperor Asoka>>. Best, Artur From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 22:44:19 2011 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 11 00:44:19 +0200 Subject: None In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093460.23782.2520246386430792470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ah, I only corrected the image caption. I've updated the text now. On 14 August 2011 00:24, Artur Karp wrote: > Mailer Daemons seem to defend A?okan veterinary hospitals. Let me > repeat my message: > > > > No trace of your intervention, Dominik --- > > at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterinary_medicine#History: > > < erected two kinds of hospitals, hospitals for people and hospitals for > animals.>> - illustrated by the photo of the Vaishali Pillar: A pillar > in Vaishali, India, displaying edicts of Emperor Asoka>>. > > Best, > > Artur > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at UW.EDU.PL Sun Aug 14 00:19:06 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 11 02:19:06 +0200 Subject: None In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093464.23782.10208577575062237595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Artur Karp Date: 2011/8/14 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] To: Dominik Wujastyk Dominik, The image caption still says: "A pillar in Vaishali, India, displaying edicts of Emperor Asoka (272?231 BCE)". But another page of Wikipedia informs the reader that "The pillars found at Vaishali (with single lion capital) and Rampurva (with bull capital) do not bear any edict." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillars_of_Ashoka And, I would suggest changing "animals" to either "cattle" or "farm animals". In A?oka's Edicts the ?term "cattle/farm animals" reflects the real economic interests of the Mauryan state. The term "animals" seems to reflect ideological concerns of the late Western commentators of the Edicts. There is no indication that A?oka wanted to institutionalize the care for the state of health of animals - animals as such. Including serpents, monkeys, gavials and tigers. [A long time ago I visited the famous Delhi Birds ?Hospital. Yes, some birds were being taken care of there, but none of them predatory or living on carrion. Wouldn't it be better if the Hospital were named The Vegan Birds Hospital?] Regards, Artur From karp at UW.EDU.PL Sun Aug 14 08:11:01 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 11 10:11:01 +0200 Subject: Asoka and medicinal service In-Reply-To: <1313297059.47701.YahooMailClassic@web94803.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227093470.23782.2202856914329821959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 2011/8/14 Dipak Bhattacharya > It is certain that medical service was available from state to humans and > animals. Dear Dipak, In what way is it certain? What is meant by "from state"? What do you mean by "animals"? Yes, Artha?astra and A?oka's Edicts, as evidence. But - do we have tools with which to find out exactly what in these texts belongs to the sphere of postulates and what represents the sphere of practices? Any iconographic evidence? Best, Artur Karp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM Sun Aug 14 04:44:19 2011 From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 11 10:14:19 +0530 Subject: Asoka and medicinal service In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093467.23782.6499654741389888548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is certain that medical service was available from state to humans and animals. How could that be realised without some permanent arrangement like sheds in junctions of highways or smaller roads? Or, are we to assume that there were roaming veterinarians and medicine men? Roaming medicine men are known from the term C?ra?avaidya, a lost branch of the Atharvaveda and, according to me (2005, 2008, 2011), the extant Atharvavedas too testify to that. But the information from the AVs are much older than Asoka's inscriptions. Did the roaming Vaidyas survive till then? Or, did Asoka arrange for some? The matter is worth enquiry. Best DB ? --- On Sat, 13/8/11, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: [INDOLOGY] To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Saturday, 13 August, 2011, 6:42 PM There's absolutely not a shred of evidence that A?oka built hospitals, by the way.? This got into the secondary literature once, and has been repeated ever since. Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Vienna Austria Project: http://www.istb.univie.ac.at/caraka/ 2011/8/13 Thrasher, Allen "A sixties issue of the Polish Great Encyclopedia presented A?oka, quite consistently, as a builder of the hospitals for animals. But not only. In this famous entry he was also a builder of the hospitals for plants." ?Presumably only for potted plants, since digging up and moving would put a strain on plants in the ground.? Or did Maurya bureaucrats, like their British Indian successors, in anticipation of transfer do their gardening in pots so their favorites could move with them to the next station? ;-) ?Allen??Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator South Asia TeamAsian DivisionLibrary of Congress101 Independence Ave., S.W. Washington, DC 20540-4810USAtel. 202-707-3732fax 202-707-1724 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.??? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM Sun Aug 14 10:43:42 2011 From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 11 16:13:42 +0530 Subject: Asoka and medicinal service In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093474.23782.1694760350647262235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleague, The king states that he has arranged. That is sufficient. Otherwise you may go on doubting. That is free. One may doubt even if it was the deed of Asoka and not of a different king named Priyadarsi Best DB --- On Sun, 14/8/11, Artur Karp wrote: From: Artur Karp Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Asoka and medicinal service To: "Dipak Bhattacharya" Cc: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 14 August, 2011, 8:11 AM 2011/8/14 Dipak Bhattacharya It is certain that medical service was available from state to humans and animals.? Dear Dipak,? In what way is it certain? What is meant by "from state"? What do you mean by "animals"? Yes, Artha?astra and A?oka's Edicts, as evidence. But - do we have tools with which to find out exactly what in these texts belongs to the sphere of postulates and what represents the sphere of practices? Any iconographic evidence? Best,? Artur Karp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Sun Aug 14 21:18:14 2011 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 11 16:18:14 -0500 Subject: Query Message-ID: <161227093485.23782.1597845528875610090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have seen and used a word-index to K?lid?sa, but I cannot remember the title or locate it in any library. Can anyone help? Thanks. Patrick From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Sun Aug 14 23:27:07 2011 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 11 16:27:07 -0700 Subject: Query In-Reply-To: <6826_1313356715_1313356715_85D1B6C8-3FA5-44F9-9E3D-9CB9B67C2F06@uts.cc.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <161227093487.23782.10778833165798517693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Patrick, You probably have in mind: Scharpe, A. 1954. Kalidasa-lexicon. Rijksuniversiteit te Gent. Werken uitg. door de Faculteit van de Wijsbegeerte en Letteren, 117, 120, 122, 134, 159, 160 The following may be helpful: Narang, Satya Pal. 19xx. K?lid?sa Bibliography. Is there any particular word you are looking for? a.a. On 2011-08-14, at 2:18 PM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > I have seen and used a word-index to K?lid?sa, but I cannot remember the title or locate it in any library. From karp at UW.EDU.PL Sun Aug 14 16:18:33 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 11 18:18:33 +0200 Subject: Asoka and medicinal service In-Reply-To: <1313318622.47332.YahooMailClassic@web94809.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227093478.23782.5816400116466820361.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 2011/8/14 Dipak Bhattacharya > Dear Colleague, > The king states that he has arranged. That is sufficient. Otherwise you may > go on doubting. That is free. One may doubt even if it was the deed of Asoka > and not of a different king named Priyadarsi > > Dear Colleague, I have no problems with hard facts. One of them is that the king did state. And that he ordered his statements to be engraved on suitable rock surfaces and on pillars. But the relation of the contents of his statements to reality is open to enquiry. Thank you for allowing me to use my freedom and go on doubting. I shall use it, certainly. Yours, etc., Artur Karp Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.) University of Warsaw, Poland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 19:56:48 2011 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 11 21:56:48 +0200 Subject: Asoka and medicinal service In-Reply-To: <1313297059.47701.YahooMailClassic@web94803.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227093481.23782.13914769530777932964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Medical "services" were not mentioned by Asoka. He says he is making ???????? (in Prakrit) available. There is no evidence for sheds, buildings or anything similar. It is possible to read one expression as meaning "a place to sit down." It could be simply that he caused the planting of herbs, as he said. There is a very developed specialist literature in western historical circles about what exactly qualifies as a hospital. This is because there are various medical facilities mentioned in Roman and Greek times, such as valitudinaria and xenones, as well as various Middle Eastern Christian institutions such as that described in the 12th century Pantocrator Typicon, that included elaborate medical facilities. The historians who write about these things have developed very fine-grained ideas about the differences between rest-houses, hospices, pilgrimage stops, recuperation houses, clinics, hospitals, and so on. And there have been very heated controversies, for example surrounding the (in my view excellent) book "The Birth of the Hospital in the Byzantine Empire" by Tim Miller. Gunter Risse's study, "Mending Bodies, Saving Souls: A History of Hospitals" develops the idea that a hospital is defined by both overnight stay for patients, permanent attending physicians and by a clearly-defined teaching function. Nothing in the Asokan inscriptions mentions any medical institution of any kind. The earliest detailed description of a hospital is in the Carakasamhita, datable probably to the period 100AD-400AD (depending on D??habala's contribution). Like the Pantocrator Typicon, Caraka's blueprint is extraordinarily detailed and realistic. But as with the Byzantine document, we have to ask ourselves as historians whether Caraka's description can be taken at face value. Perhaps it was wishful thinking, or even science fiction? My own instinct is to take it seriously as a description of a real institution, but I wish there were more archaeological or other evidence to strengthen the case. Best, Dominik On 14 August 2011 06:44, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > It is certain that medical service was available from state to humans and > animals. How could that be realised without some permanent arrangement like > sheds in junctions of highways or smaller roads? Or, are we to assume that > there were roaming veterinarians and medicine men? Roaming medicine men are > known from the term C?ra?avaidya, a lost branch of the Atharvaveda and, > according to me (2005, 2008, 2011), the extant Atharvavedas too testify to > that. But the information from the AVs are much older than Asoka's > inscriptions. Did the roaming Vaidyas survive till then? Or, did Asoka > arrange for some? The matter is worth enquiry. > Best > DB > > > --- On *Sat, 13/8/11, Dominik Wujastyk * wrote: > > > From: Dominik Wujastyk > Subject: [INDOLOGY] > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Saturday, 13 August, 2011, 6:42 PM > > There's absolutely not a shred of evidence that A?oka built hospitals, by > the way. This got into the secondary literature once, and has been repeated > ever since. > > Dominik > > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde > Universit?t Wien > Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 > A-1090 Vienna > Austria > Project: http://www.istb.univie.ac.at/caraka/ > > > > 2011/8/13 Thrasher, Allen > > > > "A sixties issue of the Polish Great Encyclopedia presented A?oka, quite > consistently, as a builder of the hospitals for animals. But not only. In > this famous entry he was also a builder of the hospitals for plants."**** > > ** ** > > Presumably only for potted plants, since digging up and moving would put a > strain on plants in the ground. Or did Maurya bureaucrats, like their > British Indian successors, in anticipation of transfer do their gardening in > pots so their favorites could move with them to the next station? ;-)**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.**** > > Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator**** > > South Asia Team**** > > Asian Division**** > > Library of Congress**** > > 101 Independence Ave., S.W.**** > > Washington, DC 20540-4810**** > > USA**** > > tel. 202-707-3732**** > > fax 202-707-1724**** > > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of > Congress.**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Aug 15 12:54:21 2011 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 11 08:54:21 -0400 Subject: Query In-Reply-To: <85D1B6C8-3FA5-44F9-9E3D-9CB9B67C2F06@uts.cc.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <161227093497.23782.16217611898132223544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Patrick, Our library has these two: 1. K?lid?sako?a? = A comprehensive dictionary of Kalidasa : based on stylo-linguistic principles / H?r?l?la ?ukla. Imprint Il?h?b?da : Racan? Prak??ana, 1981- 1st ed. -- v. Language Sanskrit -- 2. K?lid?sa pary?ya ko?a / samp?daka, Tribhuvanan?tha ?ukla. Imprint Dill? : Pratibh? Prak??ana, 2008. 1. sa?skara?a. 2 v. (viii, 904 p.) ; 23 cm. Language Sanskrit But I haven't seen either of them. Do you want me to go to then library and have a look? All the best Stella On 14-Aug-11, at 5:18 PM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > I have seen and used a word-index to K?lid?sa, but I cannot > remember the title or locate it in any library. Can anyone help? > Thanks. > > Patrick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gvvajrac at WISC.EDU Mon Aug 15 16:15:47 2011 From: gvvajrac at WISC.EDU (Gautama Vajracharya) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 11 11:15:47 -0500 Subject: Nepali Manuscript Message-ID: <161227093501.23782.14663368485900400258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Thrasher, I will be delighted to see the illustrated manuscript. Please send them to me in your free time. Best, Gautama Vajracharya From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Mon Aug 15 10:44:50 2011 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 11 12:44:50 +0200 Subject: GRETIL update #392 Message-ID: <161227093490.23782.2277648451819008981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Yama-Smrti: Brhadyamasmrti [182 verses] (plain text, text with pada markers, pada index) Yama-Smrti: Pada index of all three versions Cumulative pada index of metric Dharma texts : three versions of Yama-Smrti added __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm ... and yes, contributions of e-texts are welcome! From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Mon Aug 15 11:38:29 2011 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 11 13:38:29 +0200 Subject: Publication Announcement (Mok=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=A3op_=C4=81ya.?= Critical Edition) Message-ID: <161227093493.23782.7145753942988123528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just released: the first two volumes containing a critical edition of Books (Prakara?a) 1-3 of the Mok?op?ya, i. e. the c. 10th century Kashmir recension of what subsequently became the vedanticized so-called "Yogav?si??ha": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moksopaya Anonymus Casmiriensis, Mok?op?ya. Historisch-kritische Gesamtausgabe. Textedition Teil 1-2.[Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur, Mainz. Ver?ffentlichungen der Indologischen Kommission]. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2011. (Introduction in German, text in Sanskrit) 1) Mok?op?ya. Das Erste und Zweite Buch. Vair?gyaprakara?a. Mumuk?uvyavah?raprakara?a. Kritische Edition von Susanne Krause-Stinner. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2011. pp. LXXIII, 199. 2 coloured illustr. 72,? EUR. 2) Mok?op?ya. Das Dritte Buch. Utpattiprakara?a. Kritische Edition von J?rgen Hanneder, Peter Stephan und Stanislav Jager. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2011. pp. XXV, 576. 1 coloured illustr. 118,? EUR Links to the order page (Harrassowitz) and to a downloadable, preliminary running commentary on the edited parts of the Mok?op?ya have been placed on the site below: http://adwm.indologie.uni-halle.de/MU_PhilKomm.htm Best wishes, Walter Slaje ------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at UW.EDU.PL Mon Aug 15 20:44:57 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 11 22:44:57 +0200 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals Message-ID: <161227093503.23782.16463168723055897918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 2011/8/13 Thrasher, Allen : >> Girnar Rock Edict II: PaMthesU kUpA ca khAnApita, vrachA ca ropApitA > > paribhogAya pasu-manusAnaM. >> E. Hultzsch (1925, p. 4): "On the roads wells were caused to be dug , and >> trees were caused to be planted for the use of cattle and men." > Doesn't paZu here, as frequently, ?mean "domestic mammal" rather than > "animal" in general or "cattle" in particular, ?and refer to other animals > that would go along a highway with people, such as buffalo, sheep, goats, > asses, and camels? Dear Allen, The map of A?oka's empire, published in Kulke-Rothermund "A History of India", 2004, p. 69, shows his main highways, the "Northern Route" (uttarapatha) and the "Southern Route" (dak?i?apatha), and their important outbranchings. http://www.oration.com/~mm9n/articles/impact/8_files/image009.png What kinds of animals would be moving/moved along these highways, long enough for them to need access to water? Buffaloes do not look like right candidates. Caravans and military trains would use mainly bullocks and, to a lesser extent, camels as draught animals. And, as mounts, horses, camels and elephants. Were herds of goats and sheep driven long distance along those highways? Is there any textual evidence for the presence of large herds of cattle on those highways? Cattle as movable commodity, driven to where it could have been sold? Regards, Artur Karp From karp at UW.EDU.PL Tue Aug 16 10:03:21 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 11 12:03:21 +0200 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093505.23782.12040816704616306537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tangentially. Why are bulls so omnipresent in the store of Sanskrit metaphors? Is it because of their sexual provess? Or - because they are alpha-males par excellence? Then - reproductors, yes, but first of all leaders, leaders of the herds. Herds observed while just grazing on some pasture? Or, rather, herds in movement, with an alpha-bull in the lead? Artur From karp at UW.EDU.PL Tue Aug 16 10:21:21 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 11 12:21:21 +0200 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093507.23782.8866899817980724261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > sexual provess? Prowess, of course. But bulls do like to prove themselves, don't they? A. From karp at UW.EDU.PL Tue Aug 16 10:51:31 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 11 12:51:31 +0200 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: <1D525027B29706438707F336D75A279F1AB552AE86@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV> Message-ID: <161227093510.23782.10964931138477666450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Girnar Rock Edict II: PaMthesU kUpA ca khAnApita, vrachA ca ropApitA paribhogAya pasu-manusAnaM. >> E. Hultzsch (1925, p. 4): "On the roads wells were caused to be dug , and trees were caused to be planted for the use of cattle and men." >> Jules Bloch (1950, p. 95) reverses the order, for him men must go first : "[...] ? l'usage des hommes et des b?tes". > Is the order of the compound in the original based on any sort of priority, or merely on style, the presumption that in a dvandva longer words should come after shorter? Dear Allen, I do not feel competent enough to reasonably comment on your comment re word order in dvandva compounds. But would gladly learn from the panditas on the List. Artur From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO Tue Aug 16 10:58:20 2011 From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 11 12:58:20 +0200 Subject: Indian architecture Message-ID: <161227093512.23782.11106315658686960884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I am looking for digital pictures of Gupta period architecture associated with the private sphere (private houses, mansions, interiors, furniture etc.). I would be grateful for any hints I could get. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Aug 16 20:04:47 2011 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 11 16:04:47 -0400 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093519.23782.12565571094863142144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> They're better hung than lions or tigers, and elephants, though larger and stronger, have testicles that are not even visible, being within the abdomen. They're very strong. As part of their alpha male behavior, they are brave and on occasion aggressive - ksattriyas. You sometimes have to watch out for bulls even when they are just grazing and you haven't done anything you know of to irritate them except be there. So the image may not be solely about them leading the herd. They have it over buffalo that they are considered more intelligent, and the Indian cattle certainly look it. Western cattle, I am told, are bred for stupidity, which does not seem to be true for Indian cattle, yet. I would suspect that all these things formed a unity in the mind of the ancient Indians, and there is no call to prioritize or separate one from the other. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Asian Division, Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4810 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Artur Karp Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:03 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Asoka: Roads and Animals Tangentially. Why are bulls so omnipresent in the store of Sanskrit metaphors? Is it because of their sexual provess? Or - because they are alpha-males par excellence? Then - reproductors, yes, but first of all leaders, leaders of the herds. Herds observed while just grazing on some pasture? Or, rather, herds in movement, with an alpha-bull in the lead? Artur From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM Tue Aug 16 11:02:47 2011 From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 11 16:32:47 +0530 Subject: Asoka and medicinal service In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093516.23782.111551786593474083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I did not mention or mean hospital service but medical? service = treatment facilities. Nor did I mention the existence of full-fledged hospitals. One may read Tarasankar Bandyopadhy's Aarogyaniketan "House for cure" dealing with a tradional Kaviraj, and his establishment,?who treated his patients?according to his best ability. This is a fair representation of pre-British treatment facilities (if medical facilities is objected) in Bengal. A rudimentary form at the expense of state at the instance of Asoka will not be an unsdue conjectrure according to me. Best? DB?? --- On Sun, 14/8/11, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Asoka and medicinal service To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 14 August, 2011, 7:56 PM Medical "services" were not mentioned by Asoka.? He says he is making ???????? (in Prakrit) available.? There is no evidence for sheds, buildings or anything similar.? It is possible to read one expression as meaning "a place to sit down." ? It could be simply that he caused the planting of herbs, as he said.? There is a very developed specialist literature in western historical circles about what exactly qualifies as a hospital.? This is because there are various medical facilities mentioned in Roman and Greek times, such as valitudinaria and xenones, as well as various Middle Eastern Christian institutions such as that described in the 12th century Pantocrator Typicon, that included elaborate medical facilities.? The historians who write about these things have developed very fine-grained ideas about the differences between rest-houses, hospices, pilgrimage stops, recuperation houses, clinics, hospitals, and so on. ? And there have been very heated controversies, for example surrounding the (in my view excellent) book "The Birth of the Hospital in the Byzantine Empire" by Tim Miller.? Gunter Risse's study, "Mending Bodies, Saving Souls: A History of Hospitals" develops the idea that a hospital is defined by both overnight stay for patients, permanent attending physicians and by a clearly-defined teaching function.? Nothing in the Asokan inscriptions mentions any medical institution of any kind. The earliest detailed description of a hospital is in the Carakasamhita, datable probably to the period 100AD-400AD (depending on D??habala's contribution).? Like the Pantocrator Typicon, Caraka's blueprint is extraordinarily detailed and realistic.? But as with the Byzantine document, we have to ask ourselves as historians whether Caraka's description can be taken at face value.? Perhaps it was wishful thinking, or even science fiction?? My own instinct is to take it seriously as a description of a real institution, but I wish there were more archaeological or other evidence to strengthen the case. Best, Dominik On 14 August 2011 06:44, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: It is certain that medical service was available from state to humans and animals. How could that be realised without some permanent arrangement like sheds in junctions of highways or smaller roads? Or, are we to assume that there were roaming veterinarians and medicine men? Roaming medicine men are known from the term C?ra?avaidya, a lost branch of the Atharvaveda and, according to me (2005, 2008, 2011), the extant Atharvavedas too testify to that. But the information from the AVs are much older than Asoka's inscriptions. Did the roaming Vaidyas survive till then? Or, did Asoka arrange for some? The matter is worth enquiry. Best DB ? --- On Sat, 13/8/11, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: [INDOLOGY] To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Saturday, 13 August, 2011, 6:42 PM There's absolutely not a shred of evidence that A?oka built hospitals, by the way.? This got into the secondary literature once, and has been repeated ever since. Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Vienna Austria Project: http://www.istb.univie.ac.at/caraka/ 2011/8/13 Thrasher, Allen "A sixties issue of the Polish Great Encyclopedia presented A?oka, quite consistently, as a builder of the hospitals for animals. But not only. In this famous entry he was also a builder of the hospitals for plants." ? Presumably only for potted plants, since digging up and moving would put a strain on plants in the ground.? Or did Maurya bureaucrats, like their British Indian successors, in anticipation of transfer do their gardening in pots so their favorites could move with them to the next station? ;-) ? Allen ? ? Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator South Asia Team Asian Division Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., S.W. Washington, DC 20540-4810 USA tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkirk at SPRO.NET Wed Aug 17 19:34:15 2011 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (Jo) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 11 13:34:15 -0600 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals Message-ID: <161227093533.23782.6230220756743388972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, Since I?m dying of curiosity, if I may ask, can someone tell me what is the edict?s term for ?curry?? Anthropologists are also skeptical of such number codes and have published about them-- but sorry, no references come to mind. Thanks Joanna " Obliquely, the Ist Rock Edict: "Formerly in the kitchen of king Devanampriya Priyadar?in many hundred thousands of animals (bah?ni pr??asatasah?srani) were killed daily for the sake of curry" [Hultzsch, 1925, p. 2]." Sounds to me that one ought to apply the rule David Henige gives for premodern figures above ten thousand in his Numbers from Nowhere: The American Indian Contact Population Debate: just as a beginning, knock off the last digit. Henige deals with evidence from a lot of other places besides the Americas, though as best I recall not South Asia. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Asian Division, Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4810 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Aug 17 17:45:01 2011 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 11 13:45:01 -0400 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals Message-ID: <161227093529.23782.1667510309920582330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> " Obliquely, the Ist Rock Edict: "Formerly in the kitchen of king Devanampriya Priyadar?in many hundred thousands of animals (bah?ni pr??asatasah?srani) were killed daily for the sake of curry" [Hultzsch, 1925, p. 2]." Sounds to me that one ought to apply the rule David Henige gives for premodern figures above ten thousand in his Numbers from Nowhere: The American Indian Contact Population Debate: just as a beginning, knock off the last digit. Henige deals with evidence from a lot of other places besides the Americas, though as best I recall not South Asia. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Asian Division, Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4810 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 12:21:34 2011 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 11 14:21:34 +0200 Subject: Fred in the news ... :-) Message-ID: <161227093522.23782.8740767560363400084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/10/20110817201108170046151189b42573f/Sick-and-tired-of-paying-bribes-American-joins-stir.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 12:55:43 2011 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 11 14:55:43 +0200 Subject: Indology FAQ Message-ID: <161227093525.23782.1509433655088402659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, Some of you may remember that a while back I established a Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) area for members of this list, at - http://faq.indology.info At the time, the idea was to provide us all with an area where we could write without fear of our text being subverted by other editors without university-level academic acumen (as happens sometimes in Wikipedia). In my mind, the FAQ would contain succinct essays by members of this forum on indological topics that come up frequently in the minds of the general public. The initiative got bogged down, though, with the security issues. Members had to apply for a password in order to gain access, and the whole thing was just too darn fiddly. I have now lifted the password restriction. Anyone may now write on the FAQ, and I hope I can encourage many of you to contribute a few words on any topic that you think could be interesting to the public, and on which you could give some authoritative words in a short compass. By removing the password restriction, I have opened the FAQ up to potential abuse. We'll all simply have to keep an eye on it, and hope things don't get out of hand. If it goes bad, we'll have to deal with that in due course. Please consider going over to http://faq.indology.info and contributing a few words on your favourite topic. The topical structure that I put there is just a suggestion. Feel completely free to add, change, delete, or rearrange. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY committee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Wed Aug 17 20:53:14 2011 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 11 15:53:14 -0500 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals In-Reply-To: <002b01cc5d14$a6d9ea50$f48dbef0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <161227093537.23782.5397131964532975422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The term is s?pa -- the expression s?p?tth?ya (Sk. s?p?rth?ya) -- for the sake of s?pa (probably more like stew, broth). PO On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:34 PM, Jo wrote: > > Dear List, > > Since I?m dying of curiosity, if I may ask, can someone tell me what is the edict?s term for ?curry?? > > Anthropologists are also skeptical of such number codes and have published about them-- but sorry, no references come to mind. > > Thanks > Joanna > > > > " Obliquely, the Ist Rock Edict: "Formerly in the kitchen of king Devanampriya Priyadar?in many hundred thousands of animals (bah?ni > pr??asatasah?srani) were killed daily for the sake of curry" > [Hultzsch, 1925, p. 2]." > > Sounds to me that one ought to apply the rule David Henige gives for premodern figures above ten thousand in his Numbers from Nowhere: The American Indian Contact Population Debate: just as a beginning, knock off the last digit. Henige deals with evidence from a lot of other places besides the Americas, though as best I recall not South Asia. > > > Allen > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Asian Division, Library of Congress > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adheesh1 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 23:13:17 2011 From: adheesh1 at GMAIL.COM (Adheesh Sathaye) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 11 16:13:17 -0700 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093550.23782.13424404131499009758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stella and Dominik, Some?vara says that seven kinds of pulses can be used when making "s?pa", and they may be either milled/split or not ( (at M?nasoll?sa 3.1358-9 [vol. 2, p116]): "s?pakarma?i saptaite niyojy?? s?pak?rakai? || dalit? 'dalit?? caite pacan?y? yath?ruci |" He leaves the addition of meat as optional, suggesting that some people like to flavor it with pieces of mutton, kidneys, or bits of marrow (M?nasoll?sa 3.1371-2 [vol. 2, p117): "kecid icchanti rucyartha? me?am??sasya kha??ak?n || v?kk?n v?pi dvidh? bhinn?n medasa? ?akal?ni v? | " "s?pa" is of course also used much earlier in the Virata parvan of the MBH to describe what Bh?ma cooks as the s?pak?ra, but as far as I remember no specific details are given. Best, Adheesh ---- Adheesh Sathaye Department of Asian Studies University of British Columbia On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:52 PM, Stella Sandahl wrote: > I have a recollection that the word s?pa in the annabhoga chapter of the M?nasoll?sa refers to d?l, which in this text is cooked with meat esp. bone marrow. I don't have access to the text right now, but could find it later if anyone wants the exact reference. > Stella > -- > Stella Sandahl > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > > > > On 17-Aug-11, at 4:53 PM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > >> The term is s?pa -- the expression s?p?tth?ya (Sk. s?p?rth?ya) -- for the sake of s?pa (probably more like stew, broth). >> >> PO >> From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Aug 17 21:52:26 2011 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 11 17:52:26 -0400 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093546.23782.10118863291653332578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a recollection that the word s?pa in the annabhoga chapter of the M?nasoll?sa refers to d?l, which in this text is cooked with meat esp. bone marrow. I don't have access to the text right now, but could find it later if anyone wants the exact reference. Stella -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 17-Aug-11, at 4:53 PM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > The term is s?pa -- the expression s?p?tth?ya (Sk. > s?p?rth?ya) -- for the sake of s?pa (probably more like stew, > broth). > > PO > > > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:34 PM, Jo wrote: > >> >> Dear List, >> >> Since I?m dying of curiosity, if I may ask, can someone tell me >> what is the edict?s term for ?curry?? >> >> Anthropologists are also skeptical of such number codes and have >> published about them-- but sorry, no references come to mind. >> >> Thanks >> Joanna >> >> >> >> " Obliquely, the Ist Rock Edict: "Formerly in the kitchen of king >> Devanampriya Priyadar?in many hundred thousands of animals (bah?ni >> pr??asatasah?srani) were killed daily for the sake of curry" >> [Hultzsch, 1925, p. 2]." >> >> Sounds to me that one ought to apply the rule David Henige gives >> for premodern figures above ten thousand in his Numbers from >> Nowhere: The American Indian Contact Population Debate: just as a >> beginning, knock off the last digit. Henige deals with evidence >> from a lot of other places besides the Americas, though as best I >> recall not South Asia. >> >> >> Allen >> >> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >> Asian Division, Library of Congress >> Washington, DC 20540-4810 >> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the >> Library of Congress. >> >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: >> 08/17/11 >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkirk at SPRO.NET Thu Aug 18 00:04:56 2011 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (Jo) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 11 18:04:56 -0600 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093553.23782.14398475836037437977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Patrick? Thanks! Does this word relate to our term ?soup?? I would agree with a suggestion that this covers a broad selection of dishes?sort of like what we find in recipe books today: i.e., from a simple broth to stews or ragouts, wet or dry. It would be most informative if the p?ka??stra literature says more. Cheers, Joanna From: Patrick Olivelle [mailto:jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 2:53 PM To: Jo Cc: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Asoka: Roads and Animals The term is s?pa -- the expression s?p?tth?ya (Sk. s?p?rth?ya) -- for the sake of s?pa (probably more like stew, broth). PO On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:34 PM, Jo wrote: Dear List, Since I?m dying of curiosity, if I may ask, can someone tell me what is the edict?s term for ?curry?? Anthropologists are also skeptical of such number codes and have published about them-- but sorry, no references come to mind. Thanks Joanna " Obliquely, the Ist Rock Edict: "Formerly in the kitchen of king Devanampriya Priyadar?in many hundred thousands of animals (bah?ni pr??asatasah?srani) were killed daily for the sake of curry" [Hultzsch, 1925, p. 2]." Sounds to me that one ought to apply the rule David Henige gives for premodern figures above ten thousand in his Numbers from Nowhere: The American Indian Contact Population Debate: just as a beginning, knock off the last digit. Henige deals with evidence from a lot of other places besides the Americas, though as best I recall not South Asia. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Asian Division, Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4810 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11 _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at ILLINOIS.EDU Thu Aug 18 00:41:00 2011 From: hhhock at ILLINOIS.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 11 19:41:00 -0500 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals In-Reply-To: <008201cc5d3a$772ebda0$658c38e0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <161227093556.23782.8496024118389433899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Joanna, Skt. s?pa : Engl. soup must be a chance similarity. The English word either directly, or through reborrowing from French (which got it from some other Germanic dialect), goes back to Germanic sources. Its relatives are said to include Engl. (to) sup and Germ. saufen 'drink (of/like an animal)'. If there were a direct relationship, either English would have to have souf, or the Sanskrit word would have to be s?ba (that's because of the changes accounted for by Grimm's Law, which separate Germanic from the other Indo-European languages). Cheers, Hans Henrich On 17 Aug 2011, at 19:04, Jo wrote: > Dear Patrick? > > Thanks! Does this word relate to our term ?soup?? I would agree with a suggestion that this covers a broad selection of dishes?sort of like what we find in recipe books today: i.e., from a simple broth to stews or ragouts, wet or dry. It would be most informative if the p?ka??stra literaturesays more. > > Cheers, > Joanna > > > > From: Patrick Olivelle [mailto:jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 2:53 PM > To: Jo > Cc: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Asoka: Roads and Animals > > The term is s?pa -- the expression s?p?tth?ya (Sk. s?p?rth?ya) -- for the sake of s?pa (probably more like stew, broth). > > PO > > > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:34 PM, Jo wrote: > > > > Dear List, > > Since I?m dying of curiosity, if I may ask, can someone tell me what is the edict?s term for ?curry?? > > Anthropologists are also skeptical of such number codes and have published about them-- but sorry, no references come to mind. > > Thanks > Joanna > > > > " Obliquely, the Ist Rock Edict: "Formerly in the kitchen of king Devanampriya Priyadar?in many hundred thousands of animals (bah?ni > pr??asatasah?srani) were killed daily for the sake of curry" > [Hultzsch, 1925, p. 2]." > > Sounds to me that one ought to apply the rule David Henige gives for premodern figures above ten thousand in his Numbers from Nowhere: The American Indian Contact Population Debate: just as a beginning, knock off the last digit. Henige deals with evidence from a lot of other places besides the Americas, though as best I recall not South Asia. > > > Allen > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Asian Division, Library of Congress > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11 > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkirk at SPRO.NET Thu Aug 18 02:48:22 2011 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (Jo) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 11 20:48:22 -0600 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals Message-ID: <161227093569.23782.16181722707993622397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Hans, Thanks for this, very clear. I have been pondering on this similarity for months! More cheers, Joanna From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Hans Henrich Hock Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 6:41 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Asoka: Roads and Animals Dear Joanna, Skt. s?pa : Engl. soup must be a chance similarity. The English word either directly, or through reborrowing from French (which got it from some other Germanic dialect), goes back to Germanic sources. Its relatives are said to include Engl. (to) sup and Germ. saufen 'drink (of/like an animal)'. If there were a direct relationship, either English would have to have souf, or the Sanskrit word would have to be s?ba (that's because of the changes accounted for by Grimm's Law, which separate Germanic from the other Indo-European languages). Cheers, Hans Henrich On 17 Aug 2011, at 19:04, Jo wrote: Dear Patrick? Thanks! Does this word relate to our term ?soup?? I would agree with a suggestion that this covers a broad selection of dishes?sort of like what we find in recipe books today: i.e., from a simple broth to stews or ragouts, wet or dry. It would be most informative if the p?ka??stra literaturesays more. Cheers, Joanna From: Patrick Olivelle [mailto:jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 2:53 PM To: Jo Cc: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Asoka: Roads and Animals The term is s?pa -- the expression s?p?tth?ya (Sk. s?p?rth?ya) -- for the sake of s?pa (probably more like stew, broth). PO On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:34 PM, Jo wrote: Dear List, Since I?m dying of curiosity, if I may ask, can someone tell me what is the edict?s term for ?curry?? Anthropologists are also skeptical of such number codes and have published about them-- but sorry, no references come to mind. Thanks Joanna " Obliquely, the Ist Rock Edict: "Formerly in the kitchen of king Devanampriya Priyadar?in many hundred thousands of animals (bah?ni pr??asatasah?srani) were killed daily for the sake of curry" [Hultzsch, 1925, p. 2]." Sounds to me that one ought to apply the rule David Henige gives for premodern figures above ten thousand in his Numbers from Nowhere: The American Indian Contact Population Debate: just as a beginning, knock off the last digit. Henige deals with evidence from a lot of other places besides the Americas, though as best I recall not South Asia. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Asian Division, Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4810 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11 _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11 _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Thu Aug 18 02:07:23 2011 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 11 21:07:23 -0500 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093560.23782.5630207652772558387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, I agree, that this is simply a case of phonetic similarity without any etymological connection. On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:41 PM, Hans Henrich Hock wrote: > Dear Joanna, > > Skt. s?pa : Engl. soup must be a chance similarity. The English word either directly, or through reborrowing from French (which got it from some other Germanic dialect), goes back to Germanic sources. Its relatives are said to include Engl. (to) sup and Germ. saufen 'drink (of/like an animal)'. If there were a direct relationship, either English would have to have souf, or the Sanskrit word would have to be s?ba (that's because of the changes accounted for by Grimm's Law, which separate Germanic from the other Indo-European languages). > > Cheers, > > Hans Henrich > > > On 17 Aug 2011, at 19:04, Jo wrote: > >> Dear Patrick? >> >> Thanks! Does this word relate to our term ?soup?? I would agree with a suggestion that this covers a broad selection of dishes?sort of like what we find in recipe books today: i.e., from a simple broth to stews or ragouts, wet or dry. It would be most informative if the p?ka??stra literaturesays more. >> >> Cheers, >> Joanna >> >> >> >> From: Patrick Olivelle [mailto:jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 2:53 PM >> To: Jo >> Cc: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Asoka: Roads and Animals >> >> The term is s?pa -- the expression s?p?tth?ya (Sk. s?p?rth?ya) -- for the sake of s?pa (probably more like stew, broth). >> >> PO >> >> >> >> On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:34 PM, Jo wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear List, >> >> Since I?m dying of curiosity, if I may ask, can someone tell me what is the edict?s term for ?curry?? >> >> Anthropologists are also skeptical of such number codes and have published about them-- but sorry, no references come to mind. >> >> Thanks >> Joanna >> >> >> >> " Obliquely, the Ist Rock Edict: "Formerly in the kitchen of king Devanampriya Priyadar?in many hundred thousands of animals (bah?ni >> pr??asatasah?srani) were killed daily for the sake of curry" >> [Hultzsch, 1925, p. 2]." >> >> Sounds to me that one ought to apply the rule David Henige gives for premodern figures above ten thousand in his Numbers from Nowhere: The American Indian Contact Population Debate: just as a beginning, knock off the last digit. Henige deals with evidence from a lot of other places besides the Americas, though as best I recall not South Asia. >> >> >> Allen >> >> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >> Asian Division, Library of Congress >> Washington, DC 20540-4810 >> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >> >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11 >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11 >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Aug 18 02:32:48 2011 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 11 22:32:48 -0400 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals In-Reply-To: <055FCA4E-89F0-43C6-9520-E1A7571A779F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227093565.23782.15252818523666286791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks Adheesh for finding the correct reference! Stella -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 17-Aug-11, at 7:12 PM, Adheesh Sathaye wrote: > Dear Stella and Dominik, > > Some?vara says that seven kinds of pulses can be used when making > "s?pa", and they may be either milled/split or not ( (at > M?nasoll?sa 3.1358-9 [vol. 2, p116]): > > "s?pakarma?i saptaite niyojy?? s?pak?rakai? || > dalit? 'dalit?? caite pacan?y? yath?ruci |" > > He leaves the addition of meat as optional, suggesting that some > people like to flavor it with pieces of mutton, kidneys, or bits of > marrow (M?nasoll?sa 3.1371-2 [vol. 2, p117): > > "kecid icchanti rucyartha? me?am??sasya kha??ak?n || > v?kk?n v?pi dvidh? bhinn?n medasa? ?akal?ni v? | " > > "s?pa" is of course also used much earlier in the Virata parvan of > the MBH to describe what Bh?ma cooks as the s?pak?ra, but as far > as I remember no specific details are given. > > > Best, > > Adheesh > > ---- > Adheesh Sathaye > Department of Asian Studies > University of British Columbia > > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:52 PM, Stella Sandahl wrote: > >> I have a recollection that the word s?pa in the annabhoga chapter >> of the M?nasoll?sa refers to d?l, which in this text is cooked >> with meat esp. bone marrow. I don't have access to the text right >> now, but could find it later if anyone wants the exact reference. >> Stella >> -- >> Stella Sandahl >> ssandahl at sympatico.ca >> >> >> >> On 17-Aug-11, at 4:53 PM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: >> >>> The term is s?pa -- the expression s?p?tth?ya (Sk. >>> s?p?rth?ya) -- for the sake of s?pa (probably more like stew, >>> broth). >>> >>> PO >>> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 21:49:13 2011 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 11 23:49:13 +0200 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093541.23782.8713683949511622906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there any reason to think Skt s?pa is a false friend? Can we not say "soup"? There must be descriptions somewhere, surely in the p?ka??stra literature. In the ?yurveda??stra too: I must check. Dominik On 17 August 2011 22:53, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > The term is s?pa -- the expression s?p?tth?ya (Sk. s?p?rth?ya) -- for the > sake of s?pa (probably more like stew, broth). > > PO > > > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:34 PM, Jo wrote: > > ** ** > Dear List,**** > ** ** > Since I?m dying of curiosity, if I may ask, can someone tell me what is > the edict?s term for ?curry??**** > ** ** > Anthropologists are also skeptical of such number codes and have published > about them-- but sorry, no references come to mind.**** > ** ** > Thanks**** > Joanna**** > ** ** > ** ** > ** ** > " Obliquely, the Ist Rock Edict: "Formerly in the kitchen of king > Devanampriya Priyadar?in many hundred thousands of animals (bah?ni**** > pr??asatasah?srani) were killed daily for the sake of curry"**** > [Hultzsch, 1925, p. 2]."**** > ** ** > Sounds to me that one ought to apply the rule David Henige gives for > premodern figures above ten thousand in his Numbers from Nowhere: The > American Indian Contact Population Debate:* *just as a beginning, knock > off the last digit. Henige deals with evidence from a lot of other places > besides the Americas, though as best I recall not South Asia. **** > ** ** > ** ** > Allen**** > ** ** > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.**** > Asian Division, Library of Congress**** > Washington, DC 20540-4810**** > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of > Congress.**** > ** ** > ** ** > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11*** > * > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 08:42:19 2011 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 11 10:42:19 +0200 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093573.23782.3876670257248962063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ah yes. And Slavonic? Polish, Latvian zupa, Russian, Ukrainian ???, Lithuanian (interestingly) sriuba? Dominik On 18 August 2011 02:41, Hans Henrich Hock wrote: > Dear Joanna, > > Skt. s?pa : Engl. soup must be a chance similarity. The English word either > directly, or through reborrowing from French (which got it from some other > Germanic dialect), goes back to Germanic sources. Its relatives are said to > include Engl. (to) sup and Germ. saufen 'drink (of/like an animal)'. If > there were a direct relationship, either English would have to have souf, or > the Sanskrit word would have to be s?ba (that's because of the changes > accounted for by Grimm's Law, which separate Germanic from the other > Indo-European languages). > > Cheers, > > Hans Henrich > > > On 17 Aug 2011, at 19:04, Jo wrote: > > Dear Patrick?**** > ** ** > Thanks! Does this word relate to our term ?soup?? I would agree with a > suggestion that this covers a broad selection of dishes?sort of like what we > find in recipe books today: i.e., from a simple broth to stews or ragouts, > wet or dry. It would be most informative if the p?ka??stra literaturesays > more.**** > ** ** > Cheers,**** > Joanna**** > ** ** > **** > ** ** > ** ** > *From:* Patrick Olivelle [mailto:jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu] > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 17, 2011 2:53 PM > *To:* Jo > *Cc:* INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Asoka: Roads and Animals**** > ** ** > The term is s?pa -- the expression s?p?tth?ya (Sk. s?p?rth?ya) -- for the > sake of s?pa (probably more like stew, broth).**** > ** ** > PO**** > ** ** > ** ** > ** ** > On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:34 PM, Jo wrote:**** > > > **** > **** > Dear List,**** > **** > Since I?m dying of curiosity, if I may ask, can someone tell me what is > the edict?s term for ?curry??**** > **** > Anthropologists are also skeptical of such number codes and have published > about them-- but sorry, no references come to mind.**** > **** > Thanks**** > Joanna**** > **** > **** > **** > " Obliquely, the Ist Rock Edict: "Formerly in the kitchen of king > Devanampriya Priyadar?in many hundred thousands of animals (bah?ni**** > pr??asatasah?srani) were killed daily for the sake of curry"**** > [Hultzsch, 1925, p. 2]."**** > **** > Sounds to me that one ought to apply the rule David Henige gives for > premodern figures above ten thousand in his Numbers from Nowhere: The > American Indian Contact Population Debate:* *just as a beginning, knock > off the last digit. Henige deals with evidence from a lot of other places > besides the Americas, though as best I recall not South Asia. **** > **** > **** > Allen**** > **** > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.**** > Asian Division, Library of Congress**** > Washington, DC 20540-4810**** > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of > Congress.**** > **** > **** > **** > ------------------------------ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11*** > * > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11*** > * > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 19:24:43 2011 From: gthomgt at GMAIL.COM (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 11 15:24:43 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093586.23782.11546716163242266293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, Two days ago I sent this forwarded note to the list -- so I intended -- but instead it was sent only to Artur. Maybe it will be of some small interest to others on the list, even though now it is quite late. Also, I would now add some words on another interesting aspect to this taxonomy question: in Vedic we have a basic distinction between domestic animals [pazus] and wild animals [mRgas]. Think of Levi-Strauss [and I think that you really should]. But even more interesting is the Vedic doctrine of the five canonical sacrificial victims [i.e., domestic animals]. They are listed here hierarchically, from the least potent sacrifice to the most potent: 5. sheep 4. goat 3. cattle 2. horse 1. human I have presented a couple of papers on this hierarchy of sacrificial victims in Vedic, but I haven't published anything yet. I plan to discuss this more fully in a forthcoming anthology of translations from the Rgveda, which will include much of my most recent work on the RV. Regarding this sacrificial hierarchy, I will discuss the logic of sacrifice in Vedic, the principle of substitution in Vedic [involving two sorts of substitutions: substituting upward and substituting downward]. I think that sacrificial substitution in Vedic implies that substitution equals identity. In other words, I have a new take on the system of Vedic bandhus. Note that sacrificing wild animals is common in Vedic, but that sacrificing domestic animals is far more powerful, as far as the Vedic clans and their gods are concerned. Sacrificing domestic animals to the gods is much more powerful than sacrificing wild animals to them. Why? Because we have invested so much of ourselves in them than we have in the wild animal that we were lucky to have taken down in a hunt. I think that this work that I have been doing for years may eventually help us to better understand Vedic metaphors [i.e., bandhus] in general. Note this: the human being in Vedic, while certainly the most valued of all domestic ainmals, is still just a domestic animal. I don't know about the rest of you, but for me this Vedic view rings true. George Thompson ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: George Thompson Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question To: Artur Karp The trope "both two-footeds and four footeds" is very old in Vedic. It is frequent in the RV, mostly in this order [bipeds first], but the opposite order is not uncommon. ?This is a very ancient Indo-European trope found in many Indo-European languages. ?As far as I can tell, from a quick glance at the literature, there is no clear preference in Indo-European for one order over the other. ?In Avestan and Latin examples of the formulaic idea "two-footeds and four-footeds," the more common order has the quadrupeds before the bipeds. This is confirmed also in Avestan and Latin where we find the variant expression pasu-viira [a dvandva compound] in Avestan, and pecudesque virosque in Ovid. There is an extensive literature on this "merism" [see Calvert Watkins, *How to Kill a Dragon* and the earlier literature cited by him]. ?I don't think that the word order is significant [maybe just metrical, but I haven't been able to look at the meters]. Hope this helps [family health issues prevent me from being more thorough right now]. George On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 6:51 AM, Artur Karp wrote: >>> Girnar Rock Edict II: PaMthesU kUpA ca khAnApita, vrachA ca ropApitA paribhogAya pasu-manusAnaM. > > > >>> E. Hultzsch (1925, p. 4): "On the roads wells were caused to be dug , and trees were caused to be planted for the use of cattle and men." > > > >>> Jules Bloch (1950, p. 95) reverses the order, for him men must go first : "[...] ? l'usage des hommes et des b?tes". > > >> Is the order of the compound in the original based on any sort of priority, or merely on style, the presumption that in a dvandva longer words should come after shorter? > > > Dear Allen, > > I do not feel competent enough to reasonably comment > on your comment re word order in dvandva compounds. But would gladly > learn from the panditas on the List. > > Artur > From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM Thu Aug 18 11:10:51 2011 From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 11 16:40:51 +0530 Subject: Query In-Reply-To: <85D1B6C8-3FA5-44F9-9E3D-9CB9B67C2F06@uts.cc.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <161227093577.23782.12704595888366916880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As far as I know the latest was done by Dr.S.P. Narang. His ID is "S P Narang" Best DB --- On Sun, 14/8/11, Patrick Olivelle wrote: From: Patrick Olivelle Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 14 August, 2011, 9:18 PM I have seen and used a word-index to K?lid?sa, but I cannot remember the title or locate it in any library. Can anyone help? Thanks. Patrick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM Thu Aug 18 12:34:40 2011 From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 11 18:04:40 +0530 Subject: Asoka: Roads and Animals In-Reply-To: <002b01cc5d14$a6d9ea50$f48dbef0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <161227093582.23782.12129848393015571976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is difficult to say if anything nearing ?Indian curry? of the West existed in Asoka?s time.? What is served in London and elsewhere as Indian curry is a modern thing. Curry is not an NIA word - and. according to the COED, is derived from Tamil ka?i. That is not the London curry. The term will not be heard in common north Indian kitchens. The nearest equivalents there are kaliya (almost the London curry), tarkari 'cooked green vegetable' etc. There are many other terms in different NIA languages.? Indigenous recipe books ie ones not from the pen of western trained specialists might make the position clear. But I do not know of any dependable research on the history of Indian cooking. Best DB ? --- On Wed, 17/8/11, Jo wrote: From: Jo Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Asoka: Roads and Animals To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 17 August, 2011, 7:34 PM ?Dear List, ?Since I?m dying of curiosity, if I may ask, can someone tell me what is the edict?s term for ?curry?? ?Anthropologists are also skeptical of such number codes and have published about them-- but sorry, no references come to mind. ?ThanksJoanna ? ? ?" Obliquely, the Ist Rock Edict: "Formerly in the kitchen of king Devanampriya Priyadar?in many hundred thousands of animals (bah?nipr??asatasah?srani) were killed daily for the sake of curry"[Hultzsch, 1925, p. 2]." ?Sounds to me that one ought to apply the rule David Henige gives for premodern figures above ten thousand in his Numbers from Nowhere: The American Indian Contact Population Debate: just as a beginning, knock off the last digit.? Henige deals with evidence from a lot of other places besides the Americas, though as best I recall not South Asia.? ? ?Allen ?Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.Asian Division, Library of CongressWashington, DC 20540-4810The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. ? ? ?No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3840 - Release Date: 08/17/11 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 18:52:08 2011 From: gthomgt at GMAIL.COM (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 11 14:52:08 -0400 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: <1D525027B29706438707F336D75A279F1AB552AE86@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV> Message-ID: <161227093589.23782.5142892957884196969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, I am obviously not able to do email correctly these days. I had intended to forward to the list a note that I had sent to Artur three days ago, but once again I have failed to do so. Let's see if I can get it right this time. What I had sent to Artur was a note about the Vedic "merism" dvipad and catuSpad: Here it is [I hope]: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The trope "both two-footeds and four footeds" is very old in Vedic. It is frequent in the RV, mostly in this order [bipeds first], but the opposite order is not uncommon. This is a very ancient Indo-European trope found in many Indo-European languages. As far as I can tell, from a quick glance at the literature, there is no clear preference in Indo-European for one order over the other. In Avestan and Latin examples of the formulaic idea "two-footeds and four-footeds," the more common order has the quadrupeds before the bipeds. This is confirmed also in Avestan and Latin where we find the variant expression pasu-viira [a dvandva compound] in Avestan, and pecudesque virosque in Ovid. There is an extensive literature on this "merism" [see Calvert Watkins, *How to Kill a Dragon* and the earlier literature cited by him]. I don't think that the word order is significant [maybe just metrical, but I haven't been able to look at the meters]. Hope this helps [family health issues prevent me from being more thorough right now]. Best wishes, George From karp at UW.EDU.PL Fri Aug 19 21:49:34 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 11 23:49:34 +0200 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093592.23782.734951299992314881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear George, I apologize for not reacting to your post promptly. And thank you for the clarification. If we follow the Vedic usage, Asoka Edicts 'pasu' should be translated not as "animals" but as "domestic (or: farm) animals". Ideologically less tempting, but it makes perfect sense. In the first Rock Edict (Girnar version) there appear two terms: 'jIvaM' and 'prANa'. Hultzsch translates them as "living being" and "animal". Where the text (line B) has: idha na kiMci jIvaM ArabhitpA prajUhitavyaM, are we to understand that - following Hultzsch - "Here no living being must be killed and sacrificed"? [Bloch: "Ici il est d?fendu de sacrifier en tuant un vivant quelconque"]. Considering the sacrificial context, the animal category represented by the phrase "living being" seems to be too broad. We do not in fact know who were the clerks working for A?oka. Is it possible that they (and their king as well) just had no idea about the rules of the Vedic sacrificial system? Or was that system already transformed to the extent that it allowed to sacrifice "any living being"? Regards, Artur Karp From baums at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Aug 21 01:13:31 2011 From: baums at BERKELEY.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 11 18:13:31 -0700 Subject: The courtesan's house In-Reply-To: <238E0D2A747D495CB4D760217A80CE83@Winston> Message-ID: <161227093605.23782.11695011001385621857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars, you are probably thinking of Vasantasen??s house in the M?cchaka?ika. Here a quick link to the description in Ryder?s translation: http://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015008144571 (also in Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=stSuygSBn6sC). All best, Stefan -- Dr. Stefan Baums South and Southeast Asian Studies, UC Berkeley School of Asian Studies, Universiteit Leiden From baums at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Aug 21 01:17:45 2011 From: baums at BERKELEY.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 11 18:17:45 -0700 Subject: The courtesan's house In-Reply-To: <20110821011331.GB17112@deepthought> Message-ID: <161227093608.23782.11150457409851329257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> PS. I posted in haste. The description starts on page 67. Here the complete link: http://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015008144571?urlappend=%3Bseq=103 -- Dr. Stefan Baums South and Southeast Asian Studies, UC Berkeley School of Asian Studies, Universiteit Leiden From palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Aug 20 23:23:35 2011 From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 11 19:23:35 -0400 Subject: Authorship of the Muk undam=?utf-8?Q?=C4=81l=C4=81?= Message-ID: <161227093598.23782.1712173177670299806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Discussing the Vai??ava saint Kula?ekhara ??v?r and the author of Mukundam?l? In his book Viraha-Bhakti (p. 256, n. 56), Friedhelm Hardy says, "A king Kula?ekhara signs the Mukundam?l? (in the ?rutiphala), a Sanskrit stotra. Most authors have simply identified the two kings. Since I plan to deal extensively with the textual and authorship problem of the work elsewhere, I shall not enter here into the very complex situation. But I am convinced on the evidence I have collected that the author of the stotra is different from the ??v?r." Does anybody know if and where Hardy published his findings on the authorship of the Mukundam?l?? I would really appreciate if I can get a copy of the article. Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at UW.EDU.PL Sat Aug 20 17:35:06 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 11 19:35:06 +0200 Subject: Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093595.23782.10029994703252169084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Artur Karp Date: 2011/8/20 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question To: George Thompson Well, let me quit boring the participants of this list with my konstant karping re A?oka Edicts. But, one more question. If "idha na kiMci jIvaM ArabhitpA prajUhitavyaM" reflects A?oka's will that all earlier (Vedic) sacrifices involving killing animals be stopped altogether, then - in what way would be his successors' power legitimized? A?oka's claim to power is based on his participation in the Vedic ritual of royal consecration (abhiSeka). Regards, Artur Karp From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO Sun Aug 21 00:55:23 2011 From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 11 02:55:23 +0200 Subject: The courtesan's house Message-ID: <161227093601.23782.1528869128247801485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list! There is a passage in an Indic drama, I believe, which gives a good description of the house of a wealthy courtesan (complete with elephant and all). Do any of you happen to know where this may be? I have lost the reference, and it is sorely needed. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at KHECARI.COM Sun Aug 21 07:29:20 2011 From: jim at KHECARI.COM (James Mallinson) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 11 08:29:20 +0100 Subject: The courtesan's house In-Reply-To: <238E0D2A747D495CB4D760217A80CE83@Winston> Message-ID: <161227093615.23782.2372540817721652401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars, It's not a drama, but the tenth sarga of the B?hatkath??lokasa?graha has a lengthy description of a courtesan's mansion, elephant included. Yours, with best wishes, Jim On 21 Aug 2011, at 01:55, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Dear members of the list! > > There is a passage in an Indic drama, I believe, which gives a good > description of the house of a wealthy courtesan (complete with > elephant and all). Do any of you happen to know where this may be? I > have lost the reference, and it is sorely needed. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > From: > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo - Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM Sun Aug 21 03:46:06 2011 From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 11 09:16:06 +0530 Subject: Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093611.23782.8188453402945436057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Asoka was a reformer breaking with the past. See Rhys David's (Buddhist India) remarks on how through out the ancient world the ancient religions of customs and ritual were replaced by new ones based on ethics. Asoka represented this emergent ideology. Best DB --- On Sat, 20/8/11, Artur Karp wrote: From: Artur Karp Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Saturday, 20 August, 2011, 5:35 PM ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Artur Karp Date: 2011/8/20 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question To: George Thompson Well, let me quit boring the participants of this list with my konstant karping re A?oka Edicts. But, one more question. If "idha na kiMci jIvaM ArabhitpA prajUhitavyaM" reflects A?oka's will that all earlier (Vedic) sacrifices involving killing animals be stopped altogether, then - in what way would be his successors' power legitimized? A?oka's claim to power is based on his participation in the Vedic ritual of royal consecration (abhiSeka). Regards, Artur Karp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at UW.EDU.PL Sun Aug 21 07:36:17 2011 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 11 09:36:17 +0200 Subject: Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question In-Reply-To: <1313898366.61736.YahooMailClassic@web94812.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227093619.23782.10997829353838133836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 2011/8/21 Dipak Bhattacharya > Asoka was a reformer breaking with the past. As a reformer AND a politician - how far would A?oka go with his project of breaking with the past? To even try to answer this we would first need to know what was his idea about what constituted the past. Artur K. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Sun Aug 21 08:51:38 2011 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 11 10:51:38 +0200 Subject: The courtesan's house In-Reply-To: <238E0D2A747D495CB4D760217A80CE83@Winston> Message-ID: <161227093622.23782.10888495613928298503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars Martin, ?y?milaka's P?dat??itaka contains a rich description of the architecture in a courtesan's quarter (esp. 33.7-34; ed. Schokker, p. 84 f.). Best regards, Roland From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO Sun Aug 21 10:27:29 2011 From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 11 12:27:29 +0200 Subject: The courtesan's house In-Reply-To: <20110821011745.GC17112@deepthought> Message-ID: <161227093625.23782.9681497224810426598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Amazing, Stefan! I looked through this drama without finding the passage. This is a perfect fit, even the elephant is there! I could not possibly ask for more. Many thanks to Al, Stefan and James for their excellent help! It makes my Sunday morning very bright! Lars Martin From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Stefan Baums > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 3:18 AM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The courtesan's house > > PS. I posted in haste. The description starts on page 67. > Here the complete link: > > http://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015008144571?urlappend=%3Bseq=103 > > -- > Dr. Stefan Baums > South and Southeast Asian Studies, UC Berkeley School of > Asian Studies, Universiteit Leiden From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM Sun Aug 21 10:47:26 2011 From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 11 16:17:26 +0530 Subject: Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question Message-ID: <161227093628.23782.12189686483756950323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- On Sun, 21/8/11, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question To: "Artur Karp" Date: Sunday, 21 August, 2011, 10:45 AM Intensive study of the inscriptions is the main instrument. That can be misused: V.Smith, for example, saw nothing beyond feeling of unity with animals, a view indirectly reiterated by Keith,? as if Asoka did not feel for man. D. D. Kosambi (junior) will help those who want to find the 'break'. The abolition of apavaahana is something mentioned by the emperor himself that was bound to result in loss of revenue and the enterpreneurship of the state. I need not state them here. After Kosambi and Romila Thapar it is not necessary to speculate on the break, nor difficult to do away with the previous garbage. The present correspondent's study is in Bengali , hence will not help Best DB --- On Sun, 21/8/11, Artur Karp wrote: From: Artur Karp Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question To: "Dipak Bhattacharya" Cc: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 21 August, 2011, 7:36 AM 2011/8/21 Dipak Bhattacharya Asoka was a reformer breaking with the past. As a reformer AND a politician - how far would A?oka go with his project of ?breaking with the past? To even try to answer this we would first need to know what was his idea about what constituted the past.? Artur K.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM Sun Aug 21 11:44:25 2011 From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 11 17:14:25 +0530 Subject: Fw: [INDOLOGY] Asokan break with the past Message-ID: <161227093632.23782.15455018205154627974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 21 08 11 This is in continuation of my previous mail. The question of break with the past is quite a discussed issue. One need not read Asoka?s mind but see the effect in the centuries after and before Christ, just as one need not read the mind of Pericles or Zarathustra to see the change in Greece or Persia after them that had made Rhys Davids to pass his comments on the first effects of the Iron Age in the ancient world. Since other works will not be available to the correspondent , R.C. Hazra?s Studies in the Puranic Records of Hindu rites and customs 207-210 along with the chapters in the CHI ?(I:221) referred to therein? are advised for consultation on the post-Asokan break in customs and relevant matter. Best DB --- On Sun, 21/8/11, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 21 August, 2011, 10:47 AM --- On Sun, 21/8/11, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question To: "Artur Karp" Date: Sunday, 21 August, 2011, 10:45 AM Intensive study of the inscriptions is the main instrument. That can be misused: V.Smith, for example, saw nothing beyond feeling of unity with animals, a view indirectly reiterated by Keith,? as if Asoka did not feel for man. D. D. Kosambi (junior) will help those who want to find the 'break'. The abolition of apavaahana is something mentioned by the emperor himself that was bound to result in loss of revenue and the enterpreneurship of the state. I need not state them here. After Kosambi and Romila Thapar it is not necessary to speculate on the break, nor difficult to do away with the previous garbage. The present correspondent's study is in Bengali , hence will not help Best DB --- On Sun, 21/8/11, Artur Karp wrote: From: Artur Karp Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question To: "Dipak Bhattacharya" Cc: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 21 August, 2011, 7:36 AM 2011/8/21 Dipak Bhattacharya Asoka was a reformer breaking with the past. As a reformer AND a politician - how far would A?oka go with his project of ?breaking with the past? To even try to answer this we would first need to know what was his idea about what constituted the past.? Artur K.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Aug 22 09:55:15 2011 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 11 04:55:15 -0500 Subject: Report on Skt MSS in China and Tibet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093640.23782.4150635272866250878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, The timing seems to be connected with the progress of the ambitious state-sponsored project of photographing and registering every scrap of Sanskrit preserved in the Tibetan Autonomous Region. Though access to these materials will no doubt remain difficult for some time, the results of the overall project, in the form of handlists or catalogues, will no doubt begin to become available over the coming years. best, Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 09:43:15 2011 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 11 11:43:15 +0200 Subject: Report on Skt MSS in China and Tibet Message-ID: <161227093636.23782.10433547766898996407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://english.cri.cn/6909/2011/08/22/2821s654607.htm Does anyone know why the state-run Xinhua news agency should issue this particular piece of non-news at this time? For anyone coming to this afresh, I recommend the essay "A Tale of Leaves" by Ernst Steinkellner, freely downloadable here: http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at/Mat.html, and the *Sanskrit Manuscripts in China*proceedings ed. Steinkellner, Qing, & Krasser, from the same site. Dominik Wujastyk Vienna -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Aug 22 19:08:31 2011 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 11 15:08:31 -0400 Subject: "courtesan" as translation Message-ID: <161227093643.23782.11145946236711583197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin's question raises another I have been meaning to raise in this forum. Does the word "courtesan," which seems to be standard nowadays for referring to pre-modern Indian female sex workers, correspond to any Sanskrit lexeme? I seem to recall going through Ludwik Sternbach's Vesya: Synonyms and Aphorisms (Bombay, 1945), to which, as I see from JAOS 71 (1951), "Legal Position of Prostitutes According to Kau?ilya's Artha??stra, p. 25n, he published a "First supplement," in Bharatiya Vidya 11, 256, and planned a "Second supplement." (Was all this accumulated in his Gan?ika?-vr?tta-san?grahah?, or, Texts on courtezans in classical Sanskrit (Hoshiarpur, 1953)?). Anyway, several years ago I went through his 1945 publication and could not find that there was anything corresponding to a distinction between "courtesan" (high-class, cultivated, expensive) and "prostitute" or "whore," with the exception of compounds like rAjagaNikA, "royal prostitute," presumably having the characteristics just cited for "courtesans," since she would be for the entertainment of the king's guests. But this is a difference primarily in place of business, not quality. For those outside the court, the same terms seem to be used for everyone from the village or alley whore to the top of the line variety. I think there is in at least in some modern Indo-Aryan languages such a distinction, between raNDI or veZyA and the like and tawAIf. But I don't see it in Sanskrit. Do others see it or not? I am also wondering whether I am making "courtesan" a more marked term that some other English-speakers do. In the online Digital Dictionaries of South Asia I find for several IA languages that a string of synonyms is given for raNDI et al.: "whore," "courtesan," "prostitute," "strumpet," etc. (Somehow I have not found a search strategy that turns up tawAIF for comparison.) Of course, many of those dictionaries are of the nineteenth or early twentieth century, when usage may have been different. But I also notice that the online OED calls "courtesan" "a somewhat euphemistic appellation," citing examples going back centuries. Is this contemporary translation habit a matter of euphemism? Surely not all Indian prostitutes, not even all assembled to take part in public processions or the like, were drop-dead beautiful, cultivated in all the arts, and expensive. Also, unpleasant things are said about the ladies at both the bottom and the top of the trade. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator South Asia Team Asian Division Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., S.W. Washington, DC 20540-4810 USA tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 22:05:03 2011 From: gthomgt at GMAIL.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 11 18:05:03 -0400 Subject: Fred in the news ... :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093650.23782.6967624427527471377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, I got a note yesterday from Fred Smith who is still in India. He insists in the following note that what he has been quoted as saying in a number of interviews in Indian papers has not been accurately reported, and so he has asked me to pass on to you this correction [Fred does not have good internet access in India now, so he has asked me to post this note to the list]: "I was informed that a story on me from the Mirror (a slightly dubious newspaper in Bangalore) was posted to Indology. I'm not usually on my own computer in India, for internet at least, and can't look at Indology right now. Can you please reply to Indology that most of what's in that story was wholly invented by the Indian press. I didn't say most of what's reported there, which is why it doesn't sound like me. They wanted cookie cutter pablum, and put it in my mouth. I actually tried to feed them hard, but digestible, nuggets, but apparently they were regurgitated without leaving a trace. I don't know how many times I've told myself never to talk to any reporter. I went back on this and what came out were words I would never say. The fact is that I went to the Mysore demonstrations in support of the very necessary anti-corruption initiative inspired by Anna Hazare. I went with some people I know well there, who in fact organized the Mysore demonstration. The press and TV were there, and seemed to be interested in the tall videshi. Egged on by my friends there, I gave a few interviews. I tried, at some length, to tie corruption in with the catastrophic environmental problems in India, that the same impulse has led to both of them, but none of that made it into the newspapers. I guess it was too much for the press to handle, probably more so for editors than for reporters. Supposedly I was on NDTV and a few other channels, but never saw any of it. I gave a couple of other press interviews, including a long and substantive one to the Times of India, Bangalore edition, but have not followed up on any of it." So, this is what Fred has to say about the news from Fred in India! Best wishes, George On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 8:21 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/10/20110817201108170046151189b42573f/Sick-and-tired-of-paying-bribes-American-joins-stir.html > > From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO Mon Aug 22 20:54:48 2011 From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 11 22:54:48 +0200 Subject: "courtesan" as translation In-Reply-To: <1D525027B29706438707F336D75A279F1AB6E7CBA4@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV> Message-ID: <161227093647.23782.14820112944282777558.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen, Ludvik Sternbach discusses the various terms for prostitutes in his article "Legal Position of Prostitutes according the Kautiliya Arthashastra". Whether a prostitute is regarded as a cultural treasure or trash depends to some extent on your perspective. Ganikas were much sought after and admired like movie stars and actesses today, but the latter also used to have (or still have) a somewhat iffy reputation. Go back a few of centuries, and actors and actresses were buried outside the churchyard in our part of the world. It seems to me that ganikas had a similarly ambivalent position. I think that for translatorial purposes, "courtesan" works fine because it gives the right association. A lady like Ninon de Lenclos, renowned for her beauty and intelligence, certainly fits the bill in this part of the world, and her Indian ganika colleagues seem to have been up to her standards, although they didn't last so long in the profession. Below the ganikas, you get the rupajivas (women who lived off their good looks, but lacked the cultural baggage of the ganikas), and then of course all sorts of women. The Kamasutra actually gives us an unpleasant picture of women sexually used and abused by males who were their social superiors. The ganikas and rupajivas owned jewels, or they were set up with jewelry by their patrons (e.g. the king, who made a lot of money from this entertainment industry.) Because they were important, they had some legal protection, particularly if they worked for the king (see Sternbach). To moralists, all prostitutes would be whores, but traditionally, both we and the Indians classified these women differently depending upon their style and culture. The ganikas would at least be rich -- as long as it lasted -- and as we know, even own an elephant. It's a bit like owning a Rolls Royce. Ordinary prostitutes did not own elephants. As for modern terms, I would not know, but I suspect that in the cultural sense, the old-fashioned ganika has drifted into the role of the Bollywood heroine. The latter seems certainly as popular and f?ted as the ganikas once were. LM From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no _____ From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Thrasher, Allen Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 9:09 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: [INDOLOGY] "courtesan" as translation Lars Martin's question raises another I have been meaning to raise in this forum. Does the word "courtesan," which seems to be standard nowadays for referring to pre-modern Indian female sex workers, correspond to any Sanskrit lexeme? I seem to recall going through Ludwik Sternbach's Vesya: Synonyms and Aphorisms (Bombay, 1945), to which, as I see from JAOS 71 (1951), "Legal Position of Prostitutes According to Kau?ilya's Artha??stra, p. 25n, he published a "First supplement," in Bharatiya Vidya 11, 256, and planned a "Second supplement." (Was all this accumulated in his Gan?ika?-vr?tta-san?grahah?, or, Texts on courtezans in classical Sanskrit (Hoshiarpur, 1953)?). Anyway, several years ago I went through his 1945 publication and could not find that there was anything corresponding to a distinction between "courtesan" (high-class, cultivated, expensive) and "prostitute" or "whore," with the exception of compounds like rAjagaNikA, "royal prostitute," presumably having the characteristics just cited for "courtesans," since she would be for the entertainment of the king's guests. But this is a difference primarily in place of business, not quality. For those outside the court, the same terms seem to be used for everyone from the village or alley whore to the top of the line variety. I think there is in at least in some modern Indo-Aryan languages such a distinction, between raNDI or veZyA and the like and tawAIf. But I don't see it in Sanskrit. Do others see it or not? I am also wondering whether I am making "courtesan" a more marked term that some other English-speakers do. In the online Digital Dictionaries of South Asia I find for several IA languages that a string of synonyms is given for raNDI et al.: "whore," "courtesan," "prostitute," "strumpet," etc. (Somehow I have not found a search strategy that turns up tawAIF for comparison.) Of course, many of those dictionaries are of the nineteenth or early twentieth century, when usage may have been different. But I also notice that the online OED calls "courtesan" "a somewhat euphemistic appellation," citing examples going back centuries. Is this contemporary translation habit a matter of euphemism? Surely not all Indian prostitutes, not even all assembled to take part in public processions or the like, were drop-dead beautiful, cultivated in all the arts, and expensive. Also, unpleasant things are said about the ladies at both the bottom and the top of the trade. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator South Asia Team Asian Division Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave., S.W. Washington, DC 20540-4810 USA tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 12:21:19 2011 From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 11 08:21:19 -0400 Subject: Jnana Lila Message-ID: <161227093654.23782.10924797274826562987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends~ Has anyone heard of a text in Brajbhash called Jnana Lila. It is a conversation between Krushna and Uddhava. Kind regards. Harsha Harsha V. Dehejia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 19:01:44 2011 From: gthomgt at GMAIL.COM (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 11 15:01:44 -0400 Subject: Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question In-Reply-To: <1313923646.82088.YahooMailClassic@web94813.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227093660.23782.15501931916213623161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Maybe nobody noticed my mistake, or maybe many of you did, but you decided to forgive me. In any case, the Vedic hierarchy of sacrificial victims is not: 5. sheep 4. goat 3. cattle 2. horse 1. human It is instead: 5. goat 4. sheep 3. cattle 2. horse 1. human I make this mistake all the time. It is clear that in my urban world the value of the goat and the sheep is negligible. But this is not true of the Vedic clans. Best, George -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hellwig7 at GMX.DE Tue Aug 23 18:12:18 2011 From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 11 19:12:18 +0100 Subject: DCS update Message-ID: <161227093657.23782.13468300519338097870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list, the DCS now offers the possibility to search for Sanskrit words based on their meanings found in the MW: * Activate the field "Search for meanings" on the query page (http://kjc- fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/index.php?contents=abfrage). * Type, for instance, *tree* to find all Sanskrit lexemes that may have to do something with a tree. Please note that the results of this function do NOT prove that any of the meanings is also referenced in the DCS! Best regards, Oliver Hellwig ------ PD Dr. Oliver Hellwig South-Asia Institute Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 69120 Heidelberg, Germany From peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU Wed Aug 24 08:31:08 2011 From: peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU (Peter Friedlander) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 11 01:31:08 -0700 Subject: jnana lila In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093664.23782.6768840534950928213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps the text by Charandas in the Bhaktisagar -------------------------------- Dr Peter G. Friedlander Senior Lecturer in Hindi and Buddhist Studies Asian Studies School of Social Sciences La Trobe University, VIC 3086 Tel: 61 + 3 9479 1400 Email p.friedlander at latrobe.edu.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hellwig7 at GMX.DE Wed Aug 24 08:40:10 2011 From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 11 09:40:10 +0100 Subject: DCS update Message-ID: <161227093668.23782.10117368281142468454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ... the link I posted was wrong. Try this one: http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/index.php?contents=abfrage Best, Oliver Hellwig From hwtull at MSN.COM Wed Aug 24 16:35:41 2011 From: hwtull at MSN.COM (Herman Tull) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 11 12:35:41 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093683.23782.5134311202418043529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is, but it is rather elaborate. See Satapatha Brahmana 13.6 for Eggeling?s translation, http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbr/sbe44/sbe44111.htm Herman Tull Princeton, NJ From: Slakter, David Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:10 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question Is there no hierarchy within the category of humans for the Vedic sacrifice? That is, if you're going to sacrifice a human, will any human do? David Slakter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] on behalf of George Thompson [gthomgt at GMAIL.COM] Sent: 23 August 2011 14:01 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question Dear List Maybe nobody noticed my mistake, or maybe many of you did, but you decided to forgive me. In any case, the Vedic hierarchy of sacrificial victims is not: 5. sheep 4. goat 3. cattle 2. horse 1. human It is instead: 5. goat 4. sheep 3. cattle 2. horse 1. human I make this mistake all the time. It is clear that in my urban world the value of the goat and the sheep is negligible. But this is not true of the Vedic clans. Best, George -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 09:16:20 2011 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (Veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 11 14:46:20 +0530 Subject: Fred in the news ... :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093671.23782.7474333859057534267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear all. I hope people understand time and again that scholars should not be burdened with topics not related to indology. veeranarayana pandurangi On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 3:35 AM, George Thompson wrote: > Dear List, > > I got a note yesterday from Fred Smith who is still in India. He > insists in the following note that what he has been quoted as saying > in a number of interviews in Indian papers has not been accurately > reported, and so he has asked me to pass on to you this correction > [Fred does not have good internet access in India now, so he has asked > me to post this note to the list]: > > "I was informed that a story on me from the Mirror (a slightly dubious > newspaper in Bangalore) was posted to Indology. I'm not usually on my > own computer in India, for internet at least, and can't look at > Indology right now. Can you please reply to Indology that most of > what's in that story was wholly invented by the Indian press. I didn't > say most of what's reported there, which is why it doesn't sound like > me. They wanted cookie cutter pablum, and put it in my mouth. I > actually tried to feed them hard, but digestible, nuggets, but > apparently they were regurgitated without leaving a trace. I don't > know how many times I've told myself never to talk to any reporter. I > went back on this and what came out were words I would never say. The > fact is that I went to the Mysore demonstrations in support of the > very necessary anti-corruption initiative inspired by Anna Hazare. I > went with some people I know well there, who in fact organized the > Mysore demonstration. The press and TV were there, and seemed to be > interested in the tall videshi. Egged on by my friends there, I gave a > few interviews. I tried, at some length, to tie corruption in with the > catastrophic environmental problems in India, that the same impulse > has led to both of them, but none of that made it into the newspapers. > I guess it was too much for the press to handle, probably more so for > editors than for reporters. Supposedly I was on NDTV and a few other > channels, but never saw any of it. I gave a couple of other press > interviews, including a long and substantive one to the Times of > India, Bangalore edition, but have not followed up on any of it." > > So, this is what Fred has to say about the news from Fred in India! > > Best wishes, > > George > > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 8:21 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > > > http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/10/20110817201108170046151189b42573f/Sick-and-tired-of-paying-bribes-American-joins-stir.html > > > > > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. ?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ? ?????? ??????????????? ?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? (?.??.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From D.Slakter at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK Wed Aug 24 16:10:06 2011 From: D.Slakter at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Slakter, David) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 11 16:10:06 +0000 Subject: Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question Message-ID: <161227093679.23782.7996888228786960527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there no hierarchy within the category of humans for the Vedic sacrifice? That is, if you're going to sacrifice a human, will any human do? David Slakter ________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] on behalf of George Thompson [gthomgt at GMAIL.COM] Sent: 23 August 2011 14:01 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question Dear List Maybe nobody noticed my mistake, or maybe many of you did, but you decided to forgive me. In any case, the Vedic hierarchy of sacrificial victims is not: 5. sheep 4. goat 3. cattle 2. horse 1. human It is instead: 5. goat 4. sheep 3. cattle 2. horse 1. human I make this mistake all the time. It is clear that in my urban world the value of the goat and the sheep is negligible. But this is not true of the Vedic clans. Best, George -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Aug 24 20:34:26 2011 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 11 16:34:26 -0400 Subject: taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093686.23782.169751931044120542.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A strikingly small number of females listed. Without actually counting, I would estimate at most 10%. But then, it is a puruSamedha or naramedha, "Sacrifice of a man/men (vir/viri)," not manuSyamedha, "sacrifice of a human being/human beings." And the central deity involved is PuruSa, "the Male Person" (or some similar phrase). Aside from the basic list of the varNas, there doesn't seem to be an attempt to represent all kinds and conditions of men (either viri or homines), but an apparently somewhat random assortment. Were the abstractions listed already treated as deities before the lists were compiled (with some sort of attempt at comprehensiveness), so that the procedure was from deity to type of person rather than from type of person to deity? Allen From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Herman Tull Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:36 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question There is, but it is rather elaborate. See Satapatha Brahmana 13.6 for Eggeling?s translation, http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbr/sbe44/sbe44111.htm Herman Tull Princeton, NJ From: Slakter, David Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:10 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question Is there no hierarchy within the category of humans for the Vedic sacrifice? That is, if you're going to sacrifice a human, will any human do? David Slakter ________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] on behalf of George Thompson [gthomgt at GMAIL.COM] Sent: 23 August 2011 14:01 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question Dear List Maybe nobody noticed my mistake, or maybe many of you did, but you decided to forgive me. In any case, the Vedic hierarchy of sacrificial victims is not: 5. sheep 4. goat 3. cattle 2. horse 1. human It is instead: 5. goat 4. sheep 3. cattle 2. horse 1. human I make this mistake all the time. It is clear that in my urban world the value of the goat and the sheep is negligible. But this is not true of the Vedic clans. Best, George -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 15:14:05 2011 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 11 17:14:05 +0200 Subject: Fred in the news ... :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093674.23782.8642066304862750403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please note that while Veeranarayana Pandurangi is entitled to his opinion, he does not set the agenda for the scope of discussions on this forum, which remain as ever, open to all matters relating to indology and indologists, as broadly characterized here . If anyone wishes to discuss Anna Hazare and the current opposition to corruption in Indian public life, please go ahead. It would be best, though, if it could be related to current or past indologists (as it has been) or to historical or cultural indological perspectives. What would Kau?alya say, for example? :-) Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY forum founder On 24 August 2011 11:16, Veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: > dear all. > I hope people understand time and again that scholars should not be > burdened with topics not related to indology. > veeranarayana pandurangi > > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 3:35 AM, George Thompson wrote: > >> Dear List, >> >> I got a note yesterday from Fred Smith who is still in India. He >> insists in the following note that what he has been quoted as saying >> in a number of interviews in Indian papers has not been accurately >> reported, and so he has asked me to pass on to you this correction >> [Fred does not have good internet access in India now, so he has asked >> me to post this note to the list]: >> >> "I was informed that a story on me from the Mirror (a slightly dubious >> newspaper in Bangalore) was posted to Indology. I'm not usually on my >> own computer in India, for internet at least, and can't look at >> Indology right now. Can you please reply to Indology that most of >> what's in that story was wholly invented by the Indian press. I didn't >> say most of what's reported there, which is why it doesn't sound like >> me. They wanted cookie cutter pablum, and put it in my mouth. I >> actually tried to feed them hard, but digestible, nuggets, but >> apparently they were regurgitated without leaving a trace. I don't >> know how many times I've told myself never to talk to any reporter. I >> went back on this and what came out were words I would never say. The >> fact is that I went to the Mysore demonstrations in support of the >> very necessary anti-corruption initiative inspired by Anna Hazare. I >> went with some people I know well there, who in fact organized the >> Mysore demonstration. The press and TV were there, and seemed to be >> interested in the tall videshi. Egged on by my friends there, I gave a >> few interviews. I tried, at some length, to tie corruption in with the >> catastrophic environmental problems in India, that the same impulse >> has led to both of them, but none of that made it into the newspapers. >> I guess it was too much for the press to handle, probably more so for >> editors than for reporters. Supposedly I was on NDTV and a few other >> channels, but never saw any of it. I gave a couple of other press >> interviews, including a long and substantive one to the Times of >> India, Bangalore edition, but have not followed up on any of it." >> >> So, this is what Fred has to say about the news from Fred in India! >> >> Best wishes, >> >> George >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 8:21 AM, Dominik Wujastyk >> wrote: >> > >> http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/10/20110817201108170046151189b42573f/Sick-and-tired-of-paying-bribes-American-joins-stir.html >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi > Head, Dept of Darshanas, > Yoganandacharya Bhavan, > Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post > Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. > > ?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ????????? > ??? ???????? ??????? ? ?????? ??????????????? > ?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? > ??????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? (?.??.) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Aug 25 01:01:49 2011 From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 11 21:01:49 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093690.23782.13268960105582840756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following is interesting. "10. For the priesthood he seizes a Br?hmana, for the Br?hmana is the priesthood: he thus joins priesthood to priesthood 2;--for the nobility he seizes a R?ganya, for the R?ganya is the nobility: he thus joins nobility to nobility;--for the Maruts (he seizes) a Vaisya, for the Maruts are the clans (peasants): he thus joins peasantry to peasantry;-- p. 410 for (religious) toil (he seizes) a S?dra, for the S?dra is toil: he thus joins toil to toil;" ... "THE (SYMBOLICAL) VICTIMS OF THE PURUSHAMEDHA 1. I. 1. To the priesthood (he consecrates) a Br?hmana--2. To the nobility a Kshatriya--3. To the Maruts a Vaisya--4. To penance (hardship, tapas) a Sidra--" Why is ??dra equated to (religious) toil/penance/tapas - not just mundane labor? How does this relate to the ban on ??dra performing Tapas as in the case of ?ambuka in R?m?ya?a? Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Herman Tull To: INDOLOGY Sent: Wed, Aug 24, 2011 7:35 am Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question There is, but it is rather elaborate. See Satapatha Brahmana 13.6 for Eggeling?s translation, http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbr/sbe44/sbe44111.htm Herman Tull Princeton, NJ From: Slakter, David Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:10 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question Is there no hierarchy within the category of humans for the Vedic sacrifice? That is, if you're going to sacrifice a human, will any human do? David Slakter From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] on behalf of George Thompson [gthomgt at GMAIL.COM] Sent: 23 August 2011 14:01 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question Dear List Maybe nobody noticed my mistake, or maybe many of you did, but you decided to forgive me. In any case, the Vedic hierarchy of sacrificial victims is not: 5. sheep 4. goat 3. cattle 2. horse 1. human It is instead: 5. goat 4. sheep 3. cattle 2. horse 1. human I make this mistake all the time. It is clear that in my urban world the value of the goat and the sheep is negligible. But this is not true of the Vedic clans. Best, George -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 18:38:17 2011 From: gthomgt at GMAIL.COM (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 11 14:38:17 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227093693.23782.14640972071422419563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Herman, et al., This SB passage is nice, but, yes, rather too elaborate. Maybe I can simplify things without being too simplistic. Here is how I would answer David Slakter's question: The Vedic theory of sacrifice is in my view a theory of debt [r.n.a]. Any good thing that comes your way you owe to the blessings of the gods. So you pay back by offering a sacrifice to them. If you want to pay back as much as possible, you sacrifice as much as you can. Maybe a captured enemy would do, or some insignificant slave. Nevertheless, they are human pashus, so the sacrifice is great, and potent. Nevertheless, it is a much greater sacrifice, and a much more powerful one, if you sacrifice someone of much more, even immense, significance to you: like a son or a daughter. Biblical Abraham knew this. Greek Agamemnon knew it too. And Vedic Shunahshepa's unmentionable Brahmin father, who behaved worse than a Shudra, also knew it. All of these sacrificial animals, from the human all the way down to the lowliest, are simply substitutes, standing in for yourself, you the sacrificer. If you want to make a big down payment on your debt, then you substitute upward, and you sacrifice someone who is really significant to you, like a son or a daughter. If you want to make only a moderate down payment on your debt, then you substitute downward, and offer up a sheep or a goat. And if you aren't very serious about paying off your debt to the gods, well, you can sacrifice whatever is at hand: some bird, for example. But that kind of behavior will not please the gods, nor our contemporary banks. So your credit rating as a Vedic warrior will be downgraded severely if you do so. Of course, the logic of this economy means that if you want to pay up completely, what you have to to do is sacrifice yourself. But there aren't too many of us who would be willing to go that far. So, in fact, we sacrifice our children instead of ourselves. It has always been like this for us, I think, we servants of the gods. George On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Herman Tull wrote: > There is, but it is rather elaborate. > > See Satapatha Brahmana 13.6 > > for Eggeling?s translation, > http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbr/sbe44/sbe44111.htm > > Herman Tull > Princeton, NJ > > From: Slakter, David > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:10 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question > > Is there no hierarchy within the category of humans for the Vedic > sacrifice?? That is, if you're going to sacrifice a human, will any human > do? > > David Slakter > > ________________________________ > From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] on behalf of George Thompson > [gthomgt at GMAIL.COM] > Sent: 23 August 2011 14:01 > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question > > Dear List > > Maybe nobody noticed my mistake, or maybe many of you did, but you decided > to forgive me.? In any case, the Vedic hierarchy of sacrificial victims is > not: > > 5. sheep > 4. goat > 3. cattle > 2. horse > 1. human > > It is instead: > > 5. goat > 4. sheep > 3. cattle > 2. horse > 1. human > > I make this mistake all the time.? It is clear that in my urban world the > value of the goat and the sheep is negligible.? But this is not true of the > Vedic clans. > > Best, > George > From lubint at WLU.EDU Mon Aug 29 01:34:22 2011 From: lubint at WLU.EDU (Lubin, Tim) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 11 21:34:22 -0400 Subject: tapase "suudram [aalabhate] in TB 3.4.1.1ff / VS 30 (was "taxonomy question") Message-ID: <161227093696.23782.16077740689089573080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> tapas here ought to be understood as 'pain', 'suffering' -- e.g., from mundane labor, just as you suggest -- without the notion of ascetic discipline Tim Lubin From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 9:02 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question The following is interesting. "10. For the priesthood he seizes a Br?hmana, for the Br?hmana is the priesthood: he thus joins priesthood to priesthood 2;--for the nobility he seizes a R?ganya, for the R?ganya is the nobility: he thus joins nobility to nobility;--for the Maruts (he seizes) a Vaisya, for the Maruts are the clans (peasants): he thus joins peasantry to peasantry;-- p. 410 for (religious) toil (he seizes) a S?dra, for the S?dra is toil: he thus joins toil to toil;" ... "THE (SYMBOLICAL) VICTIMS OF THE PURUSHAMEDHA 1. I. 1. To the priesthood (he consecrates) a Br?hmana--2. To the nobility a Kshatriya--3. To the Maruts a Vaisya--4. To penance (hardship, tapas) a Sidra--" Why is ??dra equated to (religious) toil/penance/tapas - not just mundane labor? How does this relate to the ban on ??dra performing Tapas as in the case of ?ambuka in R?m?ya?a? Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -----Original Message----- From: Herman Tull To: INDOLOGY Sent: Wed, Aug 24, 2011 7:35 am Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question There is, but it is rather elaborate. See Satapatha Brahmana 13.6 for Eggeling?s translation, http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbr/sbe44/sbe44111.htm Herman Tull Princeton, NJ From: Slakter, David Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:10 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question Is there no hierarchy within the category of humans for the Vedic sacrifice? That is, if you're going to sacrifice a human, will any human do? David Slakter ________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] on behalf of George Thompson [gthomgt at GMAIL.COM] Sent: 23 August 2011 14:01 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] taxonomy question Dear List Maybe nobody noticed my mistake, or maybe many of you did, but you decided to forgive me. In any case, the Vedic hierarchy of sacrificial victims is not: 5. sheep 4. goat 3. cattle 2. horse 1. human It is instead: 5. goat 4. sheep 3. cattle 2. horse 1. human I make this mistake all the time. It is clear that in my urban world the value of the goat and the sheep is negligible. But this is not true of the Vedic clans. Best, George !SIG:4e559f0f52546481060558! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tkssouthasia at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 22:58:20 2011 From: tkssouthasia at GMAIL.COM (tony stewart) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 11 17:58:20 -0500 Subject: Job Announcement: South and/or Southeast Asian Buddhist Studies Message-ID: <161227093699.23782.11053856999253106039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: Please circulate the following announcement to interested parties. We apologize for the inevitable cross-listings (e.g., Indology, H-Buddhism, H-Asia, RISA-L, and so forth). Thanks, Tony tony.k.stewart at vanderbilt.edu Vanderbilt University Buddhist Traditions of South and/or Southeast Asia The Department of Religious Studies at Vanderbilt University seeks to make an appointment in Buddhist Traditions of South and/or Southeast Asia. Rank is Assistant Professor tenure-track. Area of specialization, historical period, and methodological approach are open. Command of appropriate languages commensurate to an advanced research agenda will be required (e.g., Sanskrit, Pali, Tibetan, Sinhala, Vietnamese, Thai, Burmese, Lao or other vernacular). The successful candidate should expect to teach both introductory and advanced classes in the field; normal course load is two courses per semester (four per year). Qualified candidates should be prepared to mentor graduate students and teach advanced courses in the methodologies appropriate to the study of religion in the Graduate Department of Religion?s field of Historical and Critical Theories of Religion (HACTOR). PhD must be in-hand by the beginning of Fall 2012 term. Application deadline is 05 October 2011 with review to begin immediately. Please send a letter of application, research statement, and assessment of teaching (if available), transcripts, and three letters of recommendation (or standard university graduate student placement dossier) to: Tony K. Stewart, Chair Department of Religious Studies ATT: Buddhist Traditions Search Committee Vanderbilt University VU Box #351585 [301 Garland Hall] 2301 Vanderbilt Place Nashville, TN 37235-1585 USA Vanderbilt is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. Women and under-represented minorities are encouraged to apply. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Aug 30 22:57:37 2011 From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (Gary Tubb) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 11 17:57:37 -0500 Subject: Telugu position in Chicago In-Reply-To: <4E5D6933.6020801@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227093703.23782.6952388923273526478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Please circulate the job posting appended below, wherever it may meet with interest. Yours, Gary. Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations The University of Chicago [appended announcement begins:] LECTURER IN TELUGU The Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations, University of Chicago, invites applications for a full-time Lecturer in Telugu. Appointment will be for one year, with possible renewal dependent upon funding and satisfactory review. The appointment is expected to begin Autumn 2011. Position and renewal are contingent upon budgetary approval. The Lecturer will teach a minimum of six courses per year, distributed over autumn, winter, and spring quarters. Courses will be regular language courses in modern spoken and written Telugu within the two levels of first-year and second-year Telugu. Language lecturers are also expected to work one-on-one with advanced students as the need arises as well as offer occasional Reading Courses to individual students. Familiarity with Classical Telugu is desirable. The Lecturer will take part in workshops, departmental meetings, colloquia, and informal events directed toward graduate training and development. M.A. or Ph.D. preferred in a relevant Humanities discipline. Application materials should be submitted as follows: (1) Cover letter and CV must be uploaded to the Academic Careers Opportunities website at (http://tinyurl.com/3o9sc43) Requisition 00979 (2) Two letters of support must be emailed to: salcsearches at lists.uchicago.edu with subject heading "Telugu Search" (3) Signed, hard-copy letters of support should be mailed to: Telugu Search South Asian Languages and Civilizations University of Chicago 1130 E 59th Street Chicago IL 60637 U.S.A For full consideration electronic materials should be submitted by October 1, 2011. Review of applications will commence October 3, 2011, and will continue until position is filled. All materials, both electronic and hard copy must arrive by October 18, 2011. ** [:appended announcement ends] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From buescher at HUM.KU.DK Wed Aug 31 17:49:38 2011 From: buescher at HUM.KU.DK (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 11 19:49:38 +0200 Subject: Catalogue of Sanskrit Manuscripts Message-ID: <161227093705.23782.16270527105766223251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, it is a pleasure to inform you that, with a short delay, my Catalogue of Sanskrit Manuscripts: Early Acquisitions and the Nepal Collection has now appeared as volume 7 in the series Catalogue of Oriental Manuscripts, Xylographs, etc. in Danish Collections (COMDC) (http://www.niaspress.dk/books/catalogue-sanskrit-manuscripts). It describes three of the Royal Library's (http://www.kb.dk/en/index.html) Sanskrit collections; these were concisely characterized in the Spring '11 issue of the IIAS Newsletter, No. 56, p. 40 (http://issuu.com/iias/docs/iias_nl_56). Kind regards, Hartmut Buescher