From jkirk at SPRO.NET Mon Nov 1 17:01:07 2010 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 10 11:01:07 -0600 Subject: FW: [INDOLOGY] Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions Message-ID: <161227090670.23782.14279060826982506282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Thomas Kintaert has published on and done a lot of research on this topic: Dr. Thomas Kintaert Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, University of Vienna Uni-Campus AAKH Spitalg. 2, Hof 2.1. A-1090 Wien, Austria (Europe) Tel.: +43-1-4277-43518 Fax: +43-1-4277-9435 thomas.kintaert at univie.ac.at Best wishes, Joanna Kirkpatrick ________________________ -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of James Hegarty Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 9:53 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: [INDOLOGY] Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions Dear Colleagues, An undergraduate student recently asked me about colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions. I realised very quickly that I knew very little about this. Can anyone suggest readings (primary and secondary) on this topic? With Thanks and Best Wishes, James Hegarty Senior Lecturer in Indian Religions Cardiff University From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 1 16:05:41 2010 From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 10 12:05:41 -0400 Subject: Colour Symbolism Message-ID: <161227090667.23782.3787263271453840514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Freinds: There was an inquiry abouyt colour symobolism this morning. Vishnudharmottara Purana makes some reference to this. Regards. Harsha V. Dehejia Ottawa, ON. Canada. From hegartyjm at GOOGLEMAIL.COM Mon Nov 1 15:53:03 2010 From: hegartyjm at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (James Hegarty) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 10 15:53:03 +0000 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions Message-ID: <161227090664.23782.11131117047237056636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, An undergraduate student recently asked me about colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions. I realised very quickly that I knew very little about this. Can anyone suggest readings (primary and secondary) on this topic? With Thanks and Best Wishes, James Hegarty Senior Lecturer in Indian Religions Cardiff University From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Mon Nov 1 17:28:12 2010 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 10 18:28:12 +0100 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions In-Reply-To: <862A9427-505C-4C8D-9156-7C060A6D7BF3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227090674.23782.9709219394002623061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 01.11.2010 um 16:53 schrieb James Hegarty: > An undergraduate student recently asked me about colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions. > > I realised very quickly that I knew very little about this. > > Can anyone suggest readings (primary and secondary) on this topic? Here are two theses: Jain, Narendra Kumar: Indian Colour Symbolism. Berlin, 1978 Berlin, Techn. Univ., Diss., 1977 Slavik, Jan: Dance of Colours: Basic Patterns of Colour Symbolism in Mah?y?na Buddhism. G?teborg: G?teborgs Etnografiska Museum, 1994. (Etnologiska studier, v. 41). ISBN 9187484080 University of G?teborg, Ph. D. Thesis, 1994 Besides these, many publications on iconography deal also with religious symbolism and will give lots of references in this respect. Hope it helps Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Bibliothek Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 53113 Bonn From h.arganisjuarez at YAHOO.COM.MX Tue Nov 2 01:42:53 2010 From: h.arganisjuarez at YAHOO.COM.MX (Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 10 18:42:53 -0700 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions In-Reply-To: <862A9427-505C-4C8D-9156-7C060A6D7BF3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227090687.23782.5035227230808802033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Hagarty: Let me congratulate your quest. Because many other scholars send to you sufficient bibliography, etc... I will be very thanks if, when you finish your? color issue recopilation, please send me a summary for my class. With my best wishes Lic. M.A. Horacio Francisco Arganis Ju?rez Catedr?tico Investigador de la Universidad Internacional Euroamericana. Departamento de Filosof?a y Religi?n Comparada. Miembro del Instituto de Estudios Filos?ficos de Saltillo A. C. www.uie.edu.es --- El lun 1-nov-10, James Hegarty escribi?: De: James Hegarty Asunto: [INDOLOGY] Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions A: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Fecha: lunes, 1 de noviembre de 2010, 15:53 Dear Colleagues, An undergraduate student recently asked me about colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions. I realised very quickly that I knew very little about this. Can anyone suggest readings (primary and secondary) on this topic? With Thanks and Best Wishes, James Hegarty Senior Lecturer in Indian Religions Cardiff University From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Mon Nov 1 17:49:11 2010 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 10 18:49:11 +0100 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090677.23782.9632273958329611542.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> References in the Indology list-archives s.v. "colours" http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?S1=indology (colours and 4 yugas, 4 var.nas, 9 rasas, etc.) Best wishes, Christophe Vielle >Am 01.11.2010 um 16:53 schrieb James Hegarty: > >> An undergraduate student recently asked me >>about colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions. >> >> I realised very quickly that I knew very little about this. >> >> Can anyone suggest readings (primary and secondary) on this topic? > > >Here are two theses: > >Jain, Narendra Kumar: Indian Colour Symbolism. Berlin, 1978 >Berlin, Techn. Univ., Diss., 1977 > >Slavik, Jan: Dance of Colours: Basic Patterns of >Colour Symbolism in Mah?y?na Buddhism. G?teborg: >G?teborgs Etnografiska Museum, 1994. >(Etnologiska studier, v. 41). ISBN 9187484080 >University of G?teborg, Ph. D. Thesis, 1994 > >Besides these, many publications on iconography >deal also with religious symbolism and will give >lots of references in this respect. > >Hope it helps >Peter Wyzlic > >-- >Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften >Bibliothek >Universit?t Bonn >Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 >53113 Bonn -- http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle http://belgianindology.blogs.lalibre.be/ -- Sign-up to Dropbox using the following link and get 2.25 gigabytes of storage free. http://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTEwOTE3Nzg1OQ From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Mon Nov 1 18:26:54 2010 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 10 19:26:54 +0100 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090680.23782.15336158395386469518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not have the reference to hand, but the famous Huizinga (known as a historian of Europe) wrote a thesis on var?a in the sense of color, unfortunately in Dutch. Perhaps a translation project some day... jonathan On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Christophe Vielle < christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote: > References in the Indology list-archives s.v. "colours" > http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?S1=indology > (colours and 4 yugas, 4 var.nas, 9 rasas, etc.) > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > > > Am 01.11.2010 um 16:53 schrieb James Hegarty: >> >> An undergraduate student recently asked me about colour symbolism in >>> Hindu Traditions. >>> >>> I realised very quickly that I knew very little about this. >>> >>> Can anyone suggest readings (primary and secondary) on this topic? >>> >> >> >> Here are two theses: >> >> Jain, Narendra Kumar: Indian Colour Symbolism. Berlin, 1978 >> Berlin, Techn. Univ., Diss., 1977 >> >> Slavik, Jan: Dance of Colours: Basic Patterns of Colour Symbolism in >> Mah?y?na Buddhism. G?teborg: G?teborgs Etnografiska Museum, 1994. >> (Etnologiska studier, v. 41). ISBN 9187484080 >> >> University of G?teborg, Ph. D. Thesis, 1994 >> >> Besides these, many publications on iconography deal also with religious >> symbolism and will give lots of references in this respect. >> >> Hope it helps >> Peter Wyzlic >> >> -- >> Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften >> Bibliothek >> Universit?t Bonn >> Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 >> 53113 Bonn >> > > > -- > http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle > http://belgianindology.blogs.lalibre.be/ > > -- > Sign-up to Dropbox using the following link and get 2.25 gigabytes of > storage free. > http://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTEwOTE3Nzg1OQ > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37 Doelensteeg 16 2311 VL Leiden The Netherlands From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM Mon Nov 1 17:13:14 2010 From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 10 22:43:14 +0530 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions In-Reply-To: <862A9427-505C-4C8D-9156-7C060A6D7BF3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227090672.23782.14307452759812252351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Aalankaarikas beginning?with Bharata speak of the individual colours pertaining to particular rasas. Another source will be the dhyaanas of deities in the Tantric manuals. Best DB --- On Mon, 1/11/10, James Hegarty wrote: From: James Hegarty Subject: [INDOLOGY] Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 3:53 PM Dear Colleagues, An undergraduate student recently asked me about colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions. I realised very quickly that I knew very little about this. Can anyone suggest readings (primary and secondary) on this topic? With Thanks and Best Wishes, James Hegarty Senior Lecturer in Indian Religions Cardiff University From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Mon Nov 1 21:49:33 2010 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 10 22:49:33 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit Book Fair, 2011 Message-ID: <161227090682.23782.16631649318074975599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A member of one of the Sanskrit discussion lists posted a note today with several newspaper articles about the upcoming Sanskrit Book Fair in Bangalore, January 2011. Here's one: http://www.hindu.com/2010/09/21/stories/2010092150220200.htm Big preparation on for Sanskrit book fair Special Correspondent BANGALORE: A four-day Sanskrit book fair will be held at the National College grounds here from January 7. The fair, the first ever to be held, is being jointly organised by the Union Human Resource Development Ministry's Rashtreeya Samskrit Sansthan, the Government of Karnataka, all the 15 Sanskrit universities, seven Sanskrit academies, 16 Oriental Research Institutes, the International Association for Sanskrit Studies, the National Manuscript Mission, Sanskrit Bharati and NGOs working in the field of Sanskrit. Speaking to reporters, the former Chief Justice of India M.N. Venkatachaliah and Chamu Krishna Shastry, president and secretary, respectively, of the National Advisory Board of the fair said Sanskrit, being a pan-Indian cultural language, would act as an impetus to national integration and harmony. Delegates The fair is expected to attract 10,000 delegates. They include representatives of 120 Sanskrit postgraduate departments of general universities and 100 publishers and scholars/participants from 20 countries. Other events Mr. Venkatachaliah said a conference of Sanskrit scholars, a large exhibition on the knowledge heritage of India and cultural programmes will be part of the fair. The fair's website is http://www.samskritbookfair.org/ See you there? James Hartzell U. of Trento From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 1 23:06:17 2010 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 10 23:06:17 +0000 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions In-Reply-To: <862A9427-505C-4C8D-9156-7C060A6D7BF3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227090685.23782.7177135913185384645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I highly recommend the study Damais, Louis-Charles: ?tudes javanaises. III. A propos des couleurs symboliques des points cardinaux. In: Bulletin de l'Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient. Tome 56, 1969. pp. 75-118. [I myself have a problem downloading articles from this site recently, and got a blank file when I tried this one a few months ago; hopefully that problem is resolved now; in any case, the article can be consulted and searched online.] It is presented as an '?tude javanaise', but in fact contains many properly indological data, and in any case, the Javanese tradition is equally a Hindu Tradition. Arlo GriffithsEFEO/Jakarta > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:53:03 +0000 > From: hegartyjm at GOOGLEMAIL.COM > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Dear Colleagues, > > An undergraduate student recently asked me about colour symbolism in > Hindu Traditions. > > I realised very quickly that I knew very little about this. > > Can anyone suggest readings (primary and secondary) on this topic? > > With Thanks and Best Wishes, > > James Hegarty > Senior Lecturer in Indian Religions > Cardiff University From klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Tue Nov 2 13:11:21 2010 From: klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 10 15:11:21 +0200 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090689.23782.17395749976710725948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jonathan and others. According to my notes Huizingas diss. was not on colours, but De vid?saka in het Indisch tooneel. 155 p. Groningen 1897. Other discussions of colours include: FILLIOZAT, Jean: "Classement des couleurs et des lumi?res en sanscrit", Probl?mes de la couleur. P. 1957, 303-308 (Laghuprabandha 185-190). GR?NBOLD, G?nter: "Die Farbensymbolik in der buddhistischen Ikonographie", As.St./?t.as. 32, 1978, 117-122. HOPKINS, Edward Washburn: ?Words for Color in the Rig-Veda?, AJPh 4, 1883, 166-191. SIVAPRIYANANDA: "Colour symbolism and the ?tri-gu?a? concept", JOIB 38:1-2, 1988, 33-41. Note further: SCHWENTNER, Ernst: diss. Eine sprachgeschichtliche Untersuchung ?ber den Gebrauch und die Bedeutung der altgermanischen Farbenzeichnungen. 1915. SOLTA, G. R.: "Zum expressiven Charakter der indogermanischen Farbenbezeichnungen", Anz?stAW 87, 1950, 40-52. TIFFOU, ?tienne & Yves-Ch. MORIN: ??tude sur les couleurs bourouchaski?, JA 270, 1982, 363-383. WOOD, Francis Asbury: Color-names and their congeners. 1902 (Indo-European). Best, Klaus Klaus Karttunen Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi On Nov 1, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > I do not have the reference to hand, but the famous Huizinga (known as a > historian of Europe) wrote a thesis on var?a in the sense of color, > unfortunately in Dutch. Perhaps a translation project some day... > > jonathan > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Christophe Vielle < > christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote: > >> References in the Indology list-archives s.v. "colours" >> http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?S1=indology >> (colours and 4 yugas, 4 var.nas, 9 rasas, etc.) >> Best wishes, >> Christophe Vielle >> >> >> Am 01.11.2010 um 16:53 schrieb James Hegarty: >>> >>> An undergraduate student recently asked me about colour symbolism in >>>> Hindu Traditions. >>>> >>>> I realised very quickly that I knew very little about this. >>>> >>>> Can anyone suggest readings (primary and secondary) on this topic? >>>> >>> >>> >>> Here are two theses: >>> >>> Jain, Narendra Kumar: Indian Colour Symbolism. Berlin, 1978 >>> Berlin, Techn. Univ., Diss., 1977 >>> >>> Slavik, Jan: Dance of Colours: Basic Patterns of Colour Symbolism in >>> Mah?y?na Buddhism. G?teborg: G?teborgs Etnografiska Museum, 1994. >>> (Etnologiska studier, v. 41). ISBN 9187484080 >>> >>> University of G?teborg, Ph. D. Thesis, 1994 >>> >>> Besides these, many publications on iconography deal also with religious >>> symbolism and will give lots of references in this respect. >>> >>> Hope it helps >>> Peter Wyzlic >>> >>> -- >>> Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften >>> Bibliothek >>> Universit?t Bonn >>> Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 >>> 53113 Bonn >>> >> >> >> -- >> http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle >> http://belgianindology.blogs.lalibre.be/ >> >> -- >> Sign-up to Dropbox using the following link and get 2.25 gigabytes of >> storage free. >> http://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTEwOTE3Nzg1OQ >> > > > > -- > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37 > Doelensteeg 16 > 2311 VL Leiden > The Netherlands > From annamisia at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 3 10:44:23 2010 From: annamisia at YAHOO.COM (Anna A. Slaczka) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 10 03:44:23 -0700 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090694.23782.15980884456091146804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are you thinking of: Dharma and society : a comparative study of the theory and the ideal of Varna ("natural class") and the phenomena of caste and class by Mees (1935)? I have no idea if it says anything about varna as colour. Beste, Anna Slaczka The Rijksmuseum Amsterdam --- On Wed, 11/3/10, Jonathan Silk wrote: > From: Jonathan Silk > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 9:23 AM > Klaus is right and my memory was > faulty; Huizinga indeed wrote on the > vidusaka. But I still believe that some Dutch scholar wrote > a thesis on > varna as color--Arlo, do you know? > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Klaus Karttunen > wrote: > > > Dear Jonathan and others. > > > > According to my notes Huizingas diss. was not on > colours, but? *De > > vid?saka in het Indisch tooneel.* 155 p. Groningen > 1897. > > Other discussions of colours include: > > FILLIOZAT, Jean: "Classement des couleurs et des > lumi?res en sanscrit", *Probl?mes > > de la couleur.* P. 1957, 303-308 (*Laghuprabandha* > 185-190). > > GR?NBOLD, G?nter: "Die Farbensymbolik in der > buddhistischen Ikonographie", > > *As.St./?t.as.* 32, 1978, 117-122. > > HOPKINS, Edward Washburn: ?Words for Color in the > Rig-Veda?, *AJPh* 4, > > 1883, 166-191. > > SIVAPRIYANANDA: "Colour symbolism and the > ?tri-gu?a? concept", *JOIB*38:1-2, 1988, 33-41. > > > > Note further: > > SCHWENTNER, Ernst: diss. *Eine sprachgeschichtliche > Untersuchung ?ber den > > Gebrauch und die Bedeutung der altgermanischen > Farbenzeichnungen.* 1915. > > SOLTA, G. R.: "Zum expressiven Charakter der > indogermanischen > > Farbenbezeichnungen", *Anz?stAW* 87, 1950, 40-52. > > TIFFOU, ?tienne & Yves-Ch. MORIN: ??tude sur > les couleurs bourouchaski?, * > > JA* 270, 1982, 363-383. > > WOOD, Francis Asbury: *Color-names and their > congeners.* 1902 > > (Indo-European). > > > > Best, > > Klaus > > > > Klaus Karttunen > > Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies > > Asian and African Studies, Department of World > Cultures > > PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) > > 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND > > Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 > > Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 > > Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 1, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > > > I do not have the reference to hand, but the famous > Huizinga (known as a > > historian of Europe) wrote a thesis on var?a in the > sense of color, > > unfortunately in Dutch. Perhaps a translation project > some day... > > > > jonathan > > > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Christophe Vielle > < > > christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> > wrote: > > > > References in the Indology list-archives s.v. > "colours" > > > > http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?S1=indology > > > > (colours and 4 yugas, 4 var.nas, 9 rasas, etc.) > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Christophe Vielle > > > > > > > > Am 01.11.2010 um 16:53 schrieb James Hegarty: > > > > > >? An undergraduate student recently asked me about > colour symbolism in > > > > Hindu Traditions. > > > > > > I realised very quickly that I knew very little about > this. > > > > > > Can anyone suggest readings (primary and secondary) on > this topic? > > > > > > > > > > Here are two theses: > > > > > > Jain, Narendra Kumar: Indian Colour Symbolism. Berlin, > 1978 > > > > Berlin, Techn. Univ., Diss., 1977 > > > > > > Slavik, Jan: Dance of Colours: Basic Patterns of > Colour Symbolism in > > > > Mah?y?na Buddhism. G?teborg: G?teborgs > Etnografiska Museum, 1994. > > > > (Etnologiska studier, v. 41). ISBN 9187484080 > > > > > > University of G?teborg, Ph. D. Thesis, 1994 > > > > > > Besides these, many publications on iconography deal > also with religious > > > > symbolism and will give lots of references in this > respect. > > > > > > Hope it helps > > > > Peter Wyzlic > > > > > > -- > > > > Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften > > > > Bibliothek > > > > Universit?t Bonn > > > > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > > > > 53113 Bonn > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle > > > > http://belgianindology.blogs.lalibre.be/ > > > > > > -- > > > > Sign-up to Dropbox using the following link and get > 2.25 gigabytes of > > > > storage free. > > > > http://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTEwOTE3Nzg1OQ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Silk > > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37 > > Doelensteeg 16 > > 2311 VL Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > > > > > > -- > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37 > Doelensteeg 16 > 2311 VL Leiden > The Netherlands > From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Nov 3 11:36:23 2010 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 10 06:36:23 -0500 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090699.23782.10615687956381935317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I haven't had the chance to go back and check, but I believe that interesting issues of colour symbolism may also be found in some works on tantric yoga such as the .sa.tcakranirupa.nam, as well as musical works of the raagamaala type. (On the latter, Klaus Ebeling's 1973 study might be a good place to start, on the former, there's of course "Arthur Avalon's" The Serpent Power, but also a more recent French translation and study by Tara Michael.) Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Wed Nov 3 08:23:19 2010 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 10 09:23:19 +0100 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090692.23782.6522552414100197302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Klaus is right and my memory was faulty; Huizinga indeed wrote on the vidusaka. But I still believe that some Dutch scholar wrote a thesis on varna as color--Arlo, do you know? On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Klaus Karttunen wrote: > Dear Jonathan and others. > > According to my notes Huizingas diss. was not on colours, but *De > vid?saka in het Indisch tooneel.* 155 p. Groningen 1897. > Other discussions of colours include: > FILLIOZAT, Jean: "Classement des couleurs et des lumi?res en sanscrit", *Probl?mes > de la couleur.* P. 1957, 303-308 (*Laghuprabandha* 185-190). > GR?NBOLD, G?nter: "Die Farbensymbolik in der buddhistischen Ikonographie", > *As.St./?t.as.* 32, 1978, 117-122. > HOPKINS, Edward Washburn: ?Words for Color in the Rig-Veda?, *AJPh* 4, > 1883, 166-191. > SIVAPRIYANANDA: "Colour symbolism and the ?tri-gu?a? concept", *JOIB*38:1-2, 1988, 33-41. > > Note further: > SCHWENTNER, Ernst: diss. *Eine sprachgeschichtliche Untersuchung ?ber den > Gebrauch und die Bedeutung der altgermanischen Farbenzeichnungen.* 1915. > SOLTA, G. R.: "Zum expressiven Charakter der indogermanischen > Farbenbezeichnungen", *Anz?stAW* 87, 1950, 40-52. > TIFFOU, ?tienne & Yves-Ch. MORIN: ??tude sur les couleurs bourouchaski?, * > JA* 270, 1982, 363-383. > WOOD, Francis Asbury: *Color-names and their congeners.* 1902 > (Indo-European). > > Best, > Klaus > > Klaus Karttunen > Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies > Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures > PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) > 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND > Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 > Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 > Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi > > > > > On Nov 1, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > I do not have the reference to hand, but the famous Huizinga (known as a > historian of Europe) wrote a thesis on var?a in the sense of color, > unfortunately in Dutch. Perhaps a translation project some day... > > jonathan > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Christophe Vielle < > christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote: > > References in the Indology list-archives s.v. "colours" > > http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?S1=indology > > (colours and 4 yugas, 4 var.nas, 9 rasas, etc.) > > Best wishes, > > Christophe Vielle > > > > Am 01.11.2010 um 16:53 schrieb James Hegarty: > > > An undergraduate student recently asked me about colour symbolism in > > Hindu Traditions. > > > I realised very quickly that I knew very little about this. > > > Can anyone suggest readings (primary and secondary) on this topic? > > > > > Here are two theses: > > > Jain, Narendra Kumar: Indian Colour Symbolism. Berlin, 1978 > > Berlin, Techn. Univ., Diss., 1977 > > > Slavik, Jan: Dance of Colours: Basic Patterns of Colour Symbolism in > > Mah?y?na Buddhism. G?teborg: G?teborgs Etnografiska Museum, 1994. > > (Etnologiska studier, v. 41). ISBN 9187484080 > > > University of G?teborg, Ph. D. Thesis, 1994 > > > Besides these, many publications on iconography deal also with religious > > symbolism and will give lots of references in this respect. > > > Hope it helps > > Peter Wyzlic > > > -- > > Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften > > Bibliothek > > Universit?t Bonn > > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > > 53113 Bonn > > > > > -- > > http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle > > http://belgianindology.blogs.lalibre.be/ > > > -- > > Sign-up to Dropbox using the following link and get 2.25 gigabytes of > > storage free. > > http://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTEwOTE3Nzg1OQ > > > > > > -- > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37 > Doelensteeg 16 > 2311 VL Leiden > The Netherlands > > > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37 Doelensteeg 16 2311 VL Leiden The Netherlands From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Wed Nov 3 10:53:07 2010 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 10 11:53:07 +0100 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions In-Reply-To: <794278.26520.qm@web55901.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227090696.23782.15647849815187338473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I *thought* that it was something in Dutch, or perhaps Latin ... Jonathan On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 11:44 AM, Anna A. Slaczka wrote: > Are you thinking of: Dharma and society : a comparative study of the theory > and the ideal of Varna ("natural class") and the phenomena of caste and > class by Mees (1935)? I have no idea if it says anything about varna as > colour. > > Beste, > > Anna Slaczka > The Rijksmuseum > Amsterdam > > > > --- On Wed, 11/3/10, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > > From: Jonathan Silk > > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu > Traditions > > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 9:23 AM > > Klaus is right and my memory was > > faulty; Huizinga indeed wrote on the > > vidusaka. But I still believe that some Dutch scholar wrote > > a thesis on > > varna as color--Arlo, do you know? > > > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Klaus Karttunen < > klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi > > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Jonathan and others. > > > > > > According to my notes Huizingas diss. was not on > > colours, but *De > > > vid?saka in het Indisch tooneel.* 155 p. Groningen > > 1897. > > > Other discussions of colours include: > > > FILLIOZAT, Jean: "Classement des couleurs et des > > lumi?res en sanscrit", *Probl?mes > > > de la couleur.* P. 1957, 303-308 (*Laghuprabandha* > > 185-190). > > > GR?NBOLD, G?nter: "Die Farbensymbolik in der > > buddhistischen Ikonographie", > > > *As.St./?t.as.* 32, 1978, 117-122. > > > HOPKINS, Edward Washburn: ?Words for Color in the > > Rig-Veda?, *AJPh* 4, > > > 1883, 166-191. > > > SIVAPRIYANANDA: "Colour symbolism and the > > ?tri-gu?a? concept", *JOIB*38:1-2, 1988, 33-41. > > > > > > Note further: > > > SCHWENTNER, Ernst: diss. *Eine sprachgeschichtliche > > Untersuchung ?ber den > > > Gebrauch und die Bedeutung der altgermanischen > > Farbenzeichnungen.* 1915. > > > SOLTA, G. R.: "Zum expressiven Charakter der > > indogermanischen > > > Farbenbezeichnungen", *Anz?stAW* 87, 1950, 40-52. > > > TIFFOU, ?tienne & Yves-Ch. MORIN: ??tude sur > > les couleurs bourouchaski?, * > > > JA* 270, 1982, 363-383. > > > WOOD, Francis Asbury: *Color-names and their > > congeners.* 1902 > > > (Indo-European). > > > > > > Best, > > > Klaus > > > > > > Klaus Karttunen > > > Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies > > > Asian and African Studies, Department of World > > Cultures > > > PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) > > > 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND > > > Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 > > > Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 > > > Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 1, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > > > > > I do not have the reference to hand, but the famous > > Huizinga (known as a > > > historian of Europe) wrote a thesis on var?a in the > > sense of color, > > > unfortunately in Dutch. Perhaps a translation project > > some day... > > > > > > jonathan > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Christophe Vielle > > < > > > christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> > > wrote: > > > > > > References in the Indology list-archives s.v. > > "colours" > > > > > > http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?S1=indology > > > > > > (colours and 4 yugas, 4 var.nas, 9 rasas, etc.) > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > Christophe Vielle > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 01.11.2010 um 16:53 schrieb James Hegarty: > > > > > > > > > An undergraduate student recently asked me about > > colour symbolism in > > > > > > Hindu Traditions. > > > > > > > > > I realised very quickly that I knew very little about > > this. > > > > > > > > > Can anyone suggest readings (primary and secondary) on > > this topic? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are two theses: > > > > > > > > > Jain, Narendra Kumar: Indian Colour Symbolism. Berlin, > > 1978 > > > > > > Berlin, Techn. Univ., Diss., 1977 > > > > > > > > > Slavik, Jan: Dance of Colours: Basic Patterns of > > Colour Symbolism in > > > > > > Mah?y?na Buddhism. G?teborg: G?teborgs > > Etnografiska Museum, 1994. > > > > > > (Etnologiska studier, v. 41). ISBN 9187484080 > > > > > > > > > University of G?teborg, Ph. D. Thesis, 1994 > > > > > > > > > Besides these, many publications on iconography deal > > also with religious > > > > > > symbolism and will give lots of references in this > > respect. > > > > > > > > > Hope it helps > > > > > > Peter Wyzlic > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften > > > > > > Bibliothek > > > > > > Universit?t Bonn > > > > > > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > > > > > > 53113 Bonn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle > > > > > > http://belgianindology.blogs.lalibre.be/ > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Sign-up to Dropbox using the following link and get > > 2.25 gigabytes of > > > > > > storage free. > > > > > > http://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTEwOTE3Nzg1OQ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > J. Silk > > > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > > Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37 > > > Doelensteeg 16 > > > 2311 VL Leiden > > > The Netherlands > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Silk > > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37 > > Doelensteeg 16 > > 2311 VL Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > > > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37 Doelensteeg 16 2311 VL Leiden The Netherlands From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Nov 3 18:17:46 2010 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 10 14:17:46 -0400 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions In-Reply-To: <20101103063623.ADO52810@mstore02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227090712.23782.2305819302289121692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is also something on the subject as applied to things such as what clothes are appropriate for rites for different purposes in Teun Goudriaan's Maya Divine and Human (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1978), which in turn is largely concerned with the texts assembled in Indrajalavidyasangraha < http://lccn.loc.gov/97903901 > (I think there are later printings of this collection than the 1915 LOC has microfiched.) Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator South Asia Team Asian Division Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4810 USA tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Nov 3 18:21:12 2010 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 10 14:21:12 -0400 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions In-Reply-To: <1D525027B29706438707F336D75A279F151490DD62@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV> Message-ID: <161227090715.23782.16274479804601263705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is also a chapter in the Manasollasa about what colour clothes should be worn in what season. Some of it seems still valid, such as green and yellow for spring. Best Stella Sandahl -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 3-Nov-10, at 2:17 PM, Thrasher, Allen wrote: > There is also something on the subject as applied to things such as > what clothes are appropriate for rites for different purposes in > Teun Goudriaan's Maya Divine and Human (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, > 1978), which in turn is largely concerned with the texts assembled > in Indrajalavidyasangraha < http://lccn.loc.gov/97903901 > (I think > there are later printings of this collection than the 1915 LOC has > microfiched.) > > Allen > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator > South Asia Team > Asian Division > Library of Congress > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > USA > tel. 202-707-3732 > fax 202-707-1724 > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the > Library of Congress. > > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of > Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des > Hautes Etudes, Paris > From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 3 15:00:38 2010 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 10 15:00:38 +0000 Subject: Ancient Script Message-ID: <161227090706.23782.16748750650945042490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The plate is taken from a paper by a British author of the 19th c. I do not have the original publication at hand, but I guess it is from the Laidlay 1886 or one of the two Low papers in the bibliography in the attached article. The plate comprises more than one inscription, at a quick glance all from Malaysia but not precisely from Penang. If I am not overlooking anything, it is all Sanskrit, and all related to Buddhism. The attached paper contain complete bibliography up to the mid 1980. Apologies for the poor quality. (Can anyone help me get a better pdf?) Arlo GriffithsEFEO/Jakarta > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:59:46 +0200 > From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Script > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Forwarded message. Replies CC'ed to rahula_80 at yahoo.com please (and the > list, if you wish). > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 21 October 2010 15:32, Ngawang Dorje wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I wanted to ask the experts in the Indology discussion group, but I am not > > a member. I wonder if you could help me. > > > > Thanks, > > Rahula > > > > ---------- > > > > I would be very grateful if you could transcript and translate the document > > that is attached with this email. It is from a rock inscription dated 5th > > century AD, found in Penang, Malaysia (if you could read the script). Can > > you also let me know if it's Pali or Sanskrit? > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Allen1986-87.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 555972 bytes Desc: not available URL: From patrick.mcallister at UNIVIE.AC.AT Thu Nov 4 09:45:52 2010 From: patrick.mcallister at UNIVIE.AC.AT (patrick mc allister) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 10 10:45:52 +0100 Subject: SARIT web application - Errors and Error Reporting In-Reply-To: <20101104091403.GD20365@proliant.indica-et-buddhica.org> Message-ID: <161227090720.23782.10262554836569910710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> * Richard MAHONEY [2010-11-04 10:14]: > Dear Readers, > > I have just been trying to use the SARIT web application for the first > time since the move from the States to Austria. Unfortunately, the web > interface seems to have been broken. While this is sometimes minor > there is at least one instance where things are somewhat more > serious. I find that one can no longer conveniently search for > material using simple ASCII character codes. Does anyone know who is > currently maintaining the site? I would like to be able to send > through a list of issues that seem to have arisen subsequent to the > site `upgrade'. Dear Richard, the site's technical parts are currently being maintained by me. For more general matters (adding texts to be searched, etc.), Dominik Wujastyk should be contacted. It would be very helpful if you could send me a list of things that broke or changed since the `upgrade'. Actually, anyone with such observations should please write to either Dominik or me. Thanks in advance, -- patrick mc allister long term email: pma at rdorte.org *current* office email: patrick.mcallister at oeaw.ac.at homepage: http://rdorte.org/pma/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Thu Nov 4 12:04:14 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 10 13:04:14 +0100 Subject: Conference announcement: BASAS conference, Southampton, April 11-13, 2011 Message-ID: <161227090723.23782.10746894521026108545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Full information here: http://basas-southasia.blogspot.com/2010/11/25th-annual-basas-conference-april-11.html Extracts: BASAS (British Association of South Asian Studies) As the largest UK academic association devoted to the study of South Asia, BASAS is also one of the world's leading learned societies for the study of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan, Maldives and the South Asian Diaspora. 25th Annual BASAS Conference April 11-13, 2011 University of Southampton Bodies of Power, Forms of Power: South Asia through History and Across Disciplines Who holds power in South Asia? Who holds power in relation to South Asia and the South Asian diaspora? How is power embodied, how is it wielded, and to what ends? Where is power located, how is it accessed, how is it articulated, and how is it signified? Who submits to power, who ignores power, and who resists power? How is power formed, how is it performed, and in what forms and through what bodies is it negotiated? The 2011, 25th anniversary annual BASAS (British Association of South Asian Studies) conference aims to lay bare the diverse and complex ways in which power is and has been negotiated in the South Asia region. Through the key terms of 'bodies' and 'forms', we aim to encourage interdisciplinary conversations about the ways in which power is understood, endorsed and undermined in both everyday lives, and at fraught moments of South Asian history. We invite proposals for panels and papers that address Bodies of Power, Forms of Power at personal, local, state and inter-state levels From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Thu Nov 4 12:20:32 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 10 13:20:32 +0100 Subject: SARIT web application - Errors and Error Reporting In-Reply-To: <20101104091403.GD20365@proliant.indica-et-buddhica.org> Message-ID: <161227090726.23782.14141568818962183618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for spotting this, Richard. Patrick has already responded to you, and we'll look into the glitches. Your list of issues would be most helpful. Best, Dominik On 4 November 2010 10:14, Richard MAHONEY wrote: > Dear Readers, > > I have just been trying to use the SARIT web application for the first > time since the move from the States to Austria. Unfortunately, the web > interface seems to have been broken. While this is sometimes minor > there is at least one instance where things are somewhat more > serious. I find that one can no longer conveniently search for > material using simple ASCII character codes. Does anyone know who is > currently maintaining the site? I would like to be able to send > through a list of issues that seem to have arisen subsequent to the > site `upgrade'. > > > Best regards, > > Richard > > > > -- > Richard MAHONEY - Indica et Buddhica > > Littledene, Bay Road, OXFORD 7430, NZ > PO Box 25, OXFORD 7443 > +64 3 312 1699 / +64 275 829 986 > r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org > http://indica-et-buddhica.org > http://camera-antipodea.indica-et-buddhica.com > From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Thu Nov 4 16:19:36 2010 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 10 17:19:36 +0100 Subject: GRETIL update #380 Message-ID: <161227090728.23782.3848571552268283507.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Jayaraksita: Sphutartha Srighanacarasamgrahatika Srighanacarasamgraha [reconstructed mula text] Mahasannipataratnaketudharanisutra, or Ratnaketuparivarta __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Thu Nov 4 09:14:03 2010 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 10 22:14:03 +1300 Subject: SARIT web application - Errors and Error Reporting Message-ID: <161227090718.23782.6898602672672702977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Readers, I have just been trying to use the SARIT web application for the first time since the move from the States to Austria. Unfortunately, the web interface seems to have been broken. While this is sometimes minor there is at least one instance where things are somewhat more serious. I find that one can no longer conveniently search for material using simple ASCII character codes. Does anyone know who is currently maintaining the site? I would like to be able to send through a list of issues that seem to have arisen subsequent to the site `upgrade'. Best regards, Richard -- Richard MAHONEY - Indica et Buddhica Littledene, Bay Road, OXFORD 7430, NZ PO Box 25, OXFORD 7443 +64 3 312 1699 / +64 275 829 986 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org http://indica-et-buddhica.org http://camera-antipodea.indica-et-buddhica.com From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Nov 5 11:57:05 2010 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 10 12:57:05 +0100 Subject: GRETIL update #380 Message-ID: <161227090731.23782.13539717173513645958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Rgveda, Padapatha text , Mandala 9 (revised) __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From andreaacri at MAC.COM Fri Nov 5 14:23:34 2010 From: andreaacri at MAC.COM (Andrea Acri) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 10 15:23:34 +0100 Subject: Enquiry with regard to colour symbolism in Hindu Traditions Message-ID: <161227090733.23782.8167408301395699667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An interesting study on colour symbolism in Indo-Javanese culture is L.C. Damais, ?tudes javanaises III; A propos des couleurs symboliques des points cardinaux, BEFEO 56 (1969), pp. 75?118. http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/issue/befeo_0336-1519_1969_num_56_1 Andrea Acri From mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM Sun Nov 7 01:56:31 2010 From: mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 10 21:56:31 -0400 Subject: Manuscript Images from Manipur Message-ID: <161227090735.23782.16263346317217434673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend of mine recently shared some pictures of a Manipuri manuscript collect with me. The pictures are available online on FLICKER and are open to view for all. I thought they might be of interest to someone and am sharing the link below; http://www.flickr.com/photos/mhmolinaro/sets/72157605042901979/show/ Best wishes. Mrinal Kaul From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Nov 8 14:18:24 2010 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 10 09:18:24 -0500 Subject: Movie Premier: India Documentary - 'Mountain God and Sacred Text' by McComas Taylor In-Reply-To: <4CD76415.70004@anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227090741.23782.5297517182624140331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Great! But could you please give some more information about the film? I could only see the poster. Thanks Stella -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 7-Nov-10, at 9:44 PM, McComas Taylor wrote: > From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Nov 8 15:30:02 2010 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 10 10:30:02 -0500 Subject: Movie Premier: India Documentary - 'Mountain God and Sacred Text' by McComas Taylor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090748.23782.4351529552031156711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, but there is no link in what I received, just the poster. Please send it again! Stella -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 8-Nov-10, at 10:02 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > I clicked on the link given and was transferred to Youtube, where > part 1 of > the film began to play. It was all successful and trouble free. > Part 2 > etc. can be selected easily. > > Best, > Dominik > > > On 8 November 2010 15:18, Stella Sandahl > wrote: > >> Great! But could you please give some more information about the >> film? I >> could only see the poster. >> Thanks >> Stella >> -- >> Stella Sandahl >> ssandahl at sympatico.ca >> >> >> >> On 7-Nov-10, at 9:44 PM, McComas Taylor wrote: >> >> >>> >> > From mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU Mon Nov 8 02:44:37 2010 From: mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 10 13:44:37 +1100 Subject: Movie Premier: India Documentary - 'Mountain God and Sacred Text' by McComas Taylor Message-ID: <161227090738.23782.18308987595504594660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> logo Dear Friends We are pleased to invite you to view our new documentary 'Mountain God and Sacred Text'. This 35min documentary is now available online in three parts at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC0Uw_lnhYg * About the film: *We set out to document a seven-day festival that was held in the hamlet of Naluna in the Garhwal Himalaya, India, in November 2009. The festival centred on the sacred text of the Bhagavatapurana which tells the story of the beloved Indian deity, Krishna. The festival was conducted under the auspices of the local village deity Kandar. Our film captures the sights and sounds of this beautiful mountain community, as well as the fascinating interaction between the story-telling tradition from the North Indian plain, and Kandar, the village god. My cameraman and editor Julian Dennis and I have worked long and hard on this film, and we look forward to reading your feedback on Youtube. Please circulate this message as widely as possible. With thanks in advance McComas PS - apologies for multiple postings. -- =============================== Dr McComas Taylor Head, South Asia Program College of Asia and the Pacific The Australian National University ACTON ACT 0200 Tel: +61 2 6125 3179 Fax: +61 2 6125 8326 Email: mccomas.taylor at anu.edu.au http://tinyurl.com/38cj94n Location: Room E4.24 Baldessin Precinct Building -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mt_god_sacred_text.gif Type: image/gif Size: 68156 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hegartyjm at GOOGLEMAIL.COM Mon Nov 8 14:31:53 2010 From: hegartyjm at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (James Hegarty) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 10 14:31:53 +0000 Subject: Thank you Message-ID: <161227090743.23782.11540704927387298396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, I would like to thank all those scholars who responded to my enquiry with regard to colour symbolism. As a new member, this was my first question posed to the list and what a fantastic response! So thank you all. Best Wishes, James Hegarty Cardiff University From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Mon Nov 8 15:02:25 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 10 16:02:25 +0100 Subject: Movie Premier: India Documentary - 'Mountain God and Sacred Text' by McComas Taylor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090745.23782.5776234514478584850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I clicked on the link given and was transferred to Youtube, where part 1 of the film began to play. It was all successful and trouble free. Part 2 etc. can be selected easily. Best, Dominik On 8 November 2010 15:18, Stella Sandahl wrote: > Great! But could you please give some more information about the film? I > could only see the poster. > Thanks > Stella > -- > Stella Sandahl > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > > > > On 7-Nov-10, at 9:44 PM, McComas Taylor wrote: > > >> > From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Nov 8 22:21:00 2010 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 10 17:21:00 -0500 Subject: New EJVS: Mantra Index to Hir.Sr.S. Message-ID: <161227090754.23782.5743377910971848560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, we are glad to inform you that a new issue of the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies has just been released, Vol. 17, Issue 1 (Nov. 2010) Mantra List of the Hira?yake?i ?rautas?tra --Addition to "A Vedic Concordance"--- by Makoto Fushimi. Download by hitting: VOL. 17 (2010), ISSUE 1 (November) NB: Four Issues following shortly, on: Early Indian art on a Bronze Age Siberian mirror; The Rgvedic Sarasvati as warrior goddess; The Harappan and later Unicorn, Vedic Gotras and Brahmanical movement to the South... Cheers, Michael ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line: 617- 496 2990 From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Mon Nov 8 16:24:59 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 10 17:24:59 +0100 Subject: Movie Premier: India Documentary - 'Mountain God and Sacred Text' by McComas Taylor In-Reply-To: <4CD76415.70004@anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227090750.23782.13645962631251669431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Several people have had difficulty with this posting, for reasons I don't understand. The post is archived, of course, and can be consulted here(or, in full, here: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1011&L=indology&D=1&O=D&F=P&X=45F718703A195F2493&P=3505) I've checked the Youtube link there, and it works fine. Best, Dominik ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: McComas Taylor Date: 8 November 2010 03:44 Subject: Movie Premier: India Documentary - 'Mountain God and Sacred Text' by McComas Taylor To: mccomas.taylor at anu.edu.au [image: logo] Dear Friends We are pleased to invite you to view our new documentary 'Mountain God and Sacred Text'. This 35min documentary is now available online in three parts at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC0Uw_lnhYg * About the film: *We set out to document a seven-day festival that was held in the hamlet of Naluna in the Garhwal Himalaya, India, in November 2009. The festival centred on the sacred text of the Bhagavatapurana which tells the story of the beloved Indian deity, Krishna. The festival was conducted under the auspices of the local village deity Kandar. Our film captures the sights and sounds of this beautiful mountain community, as well as the fascinating interaction between the story-telling tradition from the North Indian plain, and Kandar, the village god. My cameraman and editor Julian Dennis and I have worked long and hard on this film, and we look forward to reading your feedback on Youtube. Please circulate this message as widely as possible. With thanks in advance McComas PS - apologies for multiple postings. -- =============================== Dr McComas Taylor Head, South Asia Program College of Asia and the Pacific The Australian National University ACTON ACT 0200 Tel: +61 2 6125 3179 Fax: +61 2 6125 8326 Email: mccomas.taylor at anu.edu.auhttp://tinyurl.com/38cj94n Location: Room E4.24 Baldessin Precinct Building -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mt_god_sacred_text.gif Type: image/gif Size: 68156 bytes Desc: not available URL: From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Tue Nov 9 19:12:29 2010 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (Eli Franco) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 10 20:12:29 +0100 Subject: Publication announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090757.23782.4042930377930793235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From Turfan to Ajanta. Festschrift for Dieter Schlingloff on the Occasion of his Eightieth Birthday. Ed. by Eli Franco and Monika Zin. Lumbini International Research Institute 2010. 2 Vols (72 articles, 1103 pages). I enclose the table of contents. With best wishes, EF -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tableofcontents.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 105544 bytes Desc: not available URL: From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Nov 10 21:06:43 2010 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 10 16:06:43 -0500 Subject: Purana/All-India Kashiraj Trust In-Reply-To: <1D525027B29706438707F336D75A279F15135F2D6B@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV> Message-ID: <161227090760.23782.9383259621587938379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ms. Jyotika Bhambri of the Library of Congress New Delhi Overseas Office tells me that Dr. Pathak says that Vol.48, 2006 and Vol.49, 2007 have been published and they have sent them to the Office. So it appears that Peter's library has the last volume available. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator South Asia Team Asian Division Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4810 USA tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 12 08:33:33 2010 From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 10 03:33:33 -0500 Subject: Krishna as Vishnu Message-ID: <161227090762.23782.203883208086342117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends~ In Gaudiya Vashanavism of Bengal Krishna is regarded not as an incarnation of Vishnu but Vishnu himself. I believe Rupa Goswami refers to that in his writings. Can anyone please give me a reference? Regards. Harsha Prof.Harsha V. Dehejia Professor of Indian Studies, Carleton University Ottawa,ON., Canada. From whitakjl at WFU.EDU Fri Nov 12 13:43:07 2010 From: whitakjl at WFU.EDU (Jarrod L Whitaker) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 10 08:43:07 -0500 Subject: Atha Vajapeyah Somayagah: The Vajapeya Sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090769.23782.2923310164253043892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know how I can get hold of a copy of the film: Atha Vajapeyah Somayagah: The Vajapeya Sacrifice produced by J.A.B. van Buitenen, 1955. My inter-library loan people sent me this message: "We have exhausted all possible ILL sources. There are no libraries that own this item that are ILL suppliers. Additionally, I have conducted online research and have been unable to locate the film as cited." I would really appreciate it if someone could loan me a copy or let me know whether such a film exists or not. Cheers JLW -- *Jarrod L. Whitaker, Ph.D.* Assistant Professor, South Asian Religions Wake Forest University Department of Religion PO Box 7212 Winston-Salem, NC, 27109 Email whitakjl at wfu.edu Tel: 336.758.4162 Fax: 336.758.4462 wfu_logo -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wfusignature.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2270 bytes Desc: not available URL: From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Fri Nov 12 14:14:50 2010 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 10 09:14:50 -0500 Subject: Siddham seal (edited) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090772.23782.2484415240105311231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jonathan et al, I have edited the Taiping seal to an enhanced grayscale image that may assist with the reading. It may (or may not) help with the reading It is certainly outside of my knowledge of Siddham John On Nov 12, 2010, at 4:22 AM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > dear Colleagues, > > A colleague, an art historian working on China, has asked me about a seal on > a Tang period document connected to the Taiping princess, daughter of the > legendary Wu Zetian. (The seal may have belonged to Taiping's second > husband, Wu Yanxiu, a nephew of Empress Wu and thus a cousin of Taiping) It > appears to me that the seal is in Siddham, and the last ak?ara is ma, the > previous one having a long ? m?tra. More than that I am (even more) unsure > of. I am wondering if one of the cyber-gurus can read this. Several Chinese > sources seem to suggest that it might refer to sa?yak-sa?buddha, but looking > myself at the seal, I don't see how that can possibly be the case. I regret > I do not have a really good photo, but perhaps the attached will enable > someone experienced in such decipherment to help? > > very best, jonathan > > > -- > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37 > Doelensteeg 16 > 2311 VL Leiden > The Netherlands > > > -- > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 1113179594) is spam: > Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1113179594&m=d6c3c50a74f0&c=s > Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1113179594&m=d6c3c50a74f0&c=n > Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?i=1113179594&m=d6c3c50a74f0&c=f > ------------------------------------------------------ > END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot2010-11-12at9.07.33AM.jpg Type: image/jpg Size: 56763 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Fri Nov 12 09:22:43 2010 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 10 10:22:43 +0100 Subject: Siddham seal Message-ID: <161227090765.23782.9056130906788673359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear Colleagues, A colleague, an art historian working on China, has asked me about a seal on a Tang period document connected to the Taiping princess, daughter of the legendary Wu Zetian. (The seal may have belonged to Taiping's second husband, Wu Yanxiu, a nephew of Empress Wu and thus a cousin of Taiping) It appears to me that the seal is in Siddham, and the last ak?ara is ma, the previous one having a long ? m?tra. More than that I am (even more) unsure of. I am wondering if one of the cyber-gurus can read this. Several Chinese sources seem to suggest that it might refer to sa?yak-sa?buddha, but looking myself at the seal, I don't see how that can possibly be the case. I regret I do not have a really good photo, but perhaps the attached will enable someone experienced in such decipherment to help? very best, jonathan -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37 Doelensteeg 16 2311 VL Leiden The Netherlands -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Taipingseal.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 84950 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Fri Nov 12 17:29:26 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 10 18:29:26 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Fwd:_Panjal,______________once_again_the_venue_for_=E2=80=98Athirathram_'?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090775.23782.16485768213800689972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Santhosh Thannikat Date: 12 November 2010 18:05 Subject: Panjal, once again the venue for ?Athirathram' To: wujastyk at gmail.com Dear Dr Wujastyk, *I wish you all look into the last line of the news and help the organisers to be in touch with any scientific agencies which might be interested in conducting a study / research on the effect of the ritual.* Here is the link to the report from Hindu BusinessLine Panjal, a sleepy village in Kerala's Thrissur district, will once again be the venue for ?Athirathram,' considered the oldest Vedic ritual in the world. This will be hosted by the Ottappalam-based Varthathe Trust from April 4-15 at the vicinity of Panjal Lakshmi Narayana Temple. Universal harmony Considered the ultimate invocation of Vedic scriptures for universal harmony, Athirathram 2011 aims to promote universal harmony and spiritual enlightenment. Preparations According to the organisers, preparations for the ritual are in full swing as it requires abundance of resources and human endeavour. Expenses The expenses are estimated to touch Rs 1 crore and the organisers are expecting at least 15,000 people to witness the rituals daily. Panjal was the venue for Athirathram held in 1975 under the leadership of the US Harvard and Berkeley Universities and Finland's Helsinki University. Venue The event made global headlines for its message of peace, universal oneness and solidarity. The choice of Panjal, as the venue for Athirathram 2011, is in line with geographic and Vaasthu principles. The ?Yagashala' (where the ceremonies will be performed) is uniquely positioned to imbibe the energy of the sun, which has made Panjal the venue for almost key yagas in Kerala in the past. Panjal is also in close proximity to the Edappal Shukapuram Temple, regarded the epicentre of all Yaga rituals. The Athirathram cuts through all barriers ? caste, religion, race, colour and sex ? making it a true union of humanity to invoke the bounty of universal energy to promote solidarity and peace. *The organisers are also planning to approach the scientific community to study the various effects of the ritual on the atmosphere and surroundings.* ******************************************** For further readings: 1. Namboothiri.com website and its pages: http://www.namboothiri.com/somayaagam/ 2. Athirathram site by ametuer enthusiats: http://www.athirathram.org/ 3. Today's Hindu newspaper link : may not work later: 4. Original DVD of 1975 Panjal Athirathram from USA http://www.der.org/films/altar-of-fire.html Some part of the same is available in YouTube : http://www.youtube.com/user/dunlope07 5. Who is Frits Staal ? http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/people/detail/29 or also look into http://www.fritsstaalberkeley.com/ 6. The tradition of Vedic Chanting - listed in the World Intangible heritage List http://www.unesco.org/culture/ich/index.php?pg=00011&RL=00062 7. The (7) above in YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPcasmn0cRU&feature=player_embedded Thank you Warm regards Santhosh TP Thannikattillam, Kumaranalloor, Kottayam - 686 016 Res No: 0481 - 2397 108 Per. Mob: +91 - 94463 89679 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GoogleTalk: santhosh.thannikat at gmail.com -- Thank you Warm regards Santhosh Thannikat ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thannikattillam, Kumaranalloor, Kottayam - 686 016 Res No: 0481 - 2397 108 Mob: +91 - 94463 89679 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GoogleTalk: santhosh.thannikat at gmail.com From whitakjl at WFU.EDU Sat Nov 13 13:38:12 2010 From: whitakjl at WFU.EDU (Jarrod L Whitaker) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 10 08:38:12 -0500 Subject: Atha Vajapeyah Somayagah: The Vajapeya Sacrifice Message-ID: <161227090777.23782.3177302845370701283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for the repeated message, but my original post didn't display the actual text. Does anyone know how I can get hold of a copy of the film: Atha Vajapeyah Somayagah: The Vajapeya Sacrifice produced by J.A.B. van Buitenen, 1955. My inter-library loan people sent me this message: "We have exhausted all possible ILL sources. There are no libraries that own this item that are ILL suppliers. Additionally, I have conducted online research and have been unable to locate the film as cited." I would really appreciate it if someone could loan me a copy or let me know whether such a film exists or not. Cheers JLW Wake Forest University From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO Sun Nov 14 18:44:55 2010 From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 10 19:44:55 +0100 Subject: Potential misunderstanding Message-ID: <161227090779.23782.11075087503428674071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list! George Thompson has recently published a critique of my translation of the Bhagavad Gita which contains a possibly misleading piece of information. Thompson brackets my translation in the New Age category, thereby potentially creating the impression that I myself am a supporter of New Age religiosity. I am nothing of the sort. I am in no way involved with New Age. My translation was published by a small American publisher specialising in Yoga texts. The series also contains the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, translated by Brian Dana Akers, as well as the Shiva Samhita and the Gheranda Samhita, both translated by James Mallinson. More to follow. The books mostly have the same format: a short, popular introduction, the Sanskrit text with interlinear translation, an index. There are no bibliographies, no comments, no critical apparatus and no footnotes. The editions are partly intended for the mass market, partly for students of Sanskrit and others who would like to read the text with an interlinear translation, or simply have quick access to the Sanskrit source. Thus, they have been stripped down to the bare essentials. I personally find it difficult to associate these editions with New Age, but everybody can be the judge of that. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Nov 15 21:56:27 2010 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 10 16:56:27 -0500 Subject: seer of new Vedic hymns Message-ID: <161227090781.23782.10976665933377569772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few weeks ago I posted some remarks on the Indo-Eurasian list about claims to have 'seen' or 'heard' new scriptures or long-lost ancient texts. One person got back to me privately asking further information: "I was reading some messages about the Pranava-Vada when I came across an exchange you wrote here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Indo-Eurasian_research/message/14306 In that exchange, you said "There was a man who gave a talk at the Dept. of Sanskrit, Poona University during my first stay of 1969-70, who claimed to have seen new Vedic hymns, which had been published in a nice format. I can't recall his name. Punditji (S.D. Joshi) admitted that the language was Vedic but was not an adherent."" No one added anything on Indo-Eurasian about who this man was, and various search strategies on our OPAC and Google have turned up nothing. Does anyone on this list remember the man, his name, and perhaps the title of the collection of new hymns? Apparently "nice format" was ambiguous. I meant not that they existed in an attractive manuscript but they had been printed and published in one or more well-got-up volumes. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian and Team Coordinator South Asia Team Asian Division Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4810 USA tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Tue Nov 16 08:00:25 2010 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 10 00:00:25 -0800 Subject: seer of new Vedic hymns In-Reply-To: <12467_1289858249_1289858249_1D525027B29706438707F336D75A279F15154DE3BF@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV> Message-ID: <161227090783.23782.7289155533266284680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Allen, The pressure of other commitments is keeping me away from participating in some of the list discussions. The information you need is probably: Daivaraata Brahmar.si. 1968. Chando-dar;sanam daivaraataar.seyam. ;Srii-kaavya-ka.n.tha-ga.na-pati-muni-viracita-vaasi.s.thaanvaya-bhaa.sye.na pari.sk.rtam. Bombay: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. Later on, the same 'seer' person probably edited the following collection of Vedic passages bearing on vaac. Daivaraata, Brahmar.si/Mahar.si. 1971 = sa.mvat 2028. Vaak Sudhaa. Calcutta: Madana-gopaala Poddaara Cairi.tii .Tras?a [= Charity Trust]. ashok On 2010-11-15, at 1:56 PM, Thrasher, Allen wrote: > > No one added anything on Indo-Eurasian about who this man was, and various search strategies on our OPAC and Google have turned up nothing. Does anyone on this list remember the man, his name, and perhaps the title of the collection of new hymns? From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Nov 16 16:07:45 2010 From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhatt) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 10 11:07:45 -0500 Subject: Gangajala Vidyapeeth In-Reply-To: <259D2C5B210F304AB8B734030D5F54CB79269BDA70@post> Message-ID: <161227090794.23782.2519779631400292440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The nearest Railway station is Aliabad. It is in Jamnagar, Gujarat and the postal code is: 361110 Jamnagar has an airport, also. Best, Bindu Kenneth Zysk wrote: > I am looking for the exact location and nearest railway station to the Gangajala Vidyapeeth, Aliyavada, Gujarat. > Please respond to me on my private email. > Many thanks. > > Kenneth Zysk > Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies > University of Copenhagen > Asian Studies Section > Artillerivej 86 > DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark > Ph: +45 3532 8951 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bb145.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hegartyjm at GOOGLEMAIL.COM Tue Nov 16 12:15:07 2010 From: hegartyjm at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (James Hegarty) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 10 12:15:07 +0000 Subject: Raining Blood: rudhiravar=?UTF-8?Q?=E1=B9=A3a?= Message-ID: <161227090788.23782.12835837639426078614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Has anyone come across this term (rudhiravar?a) outside of the war books of the Mah?bh?rata? I am especially interested where it occurs as a portent of future violence etc. I am aware of its use in Buddhist accounts of the birth of Aj?ta?atru, but that is about it! I have the w?rterbuch entry, but the information here is somewhat lacking in context, by its very nature. Can anyone help me? With All Best Wishes, James Hegarty Cardiff University From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Nov 16 17:30:23 2010 From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhatt) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 10 12:30:23 -0500 Subject: Raining Blood: rudhiravar=?UTF-8?Q?=E1=B9=A3a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090799.23782.15189564851681184600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I remember seeing it in "Susruta Samhita" or "caraka samhita". Perhaps it was with reference to use of caustics (Ksara). Thanks, Bindu Bhatt James Hegarty wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Has anyone come across this term (rudhiravar?a) outside of the war > books of the Mah?bh?rata? > > I am especially interested where it occurs as a portent of future > violence etc. I am aware of its use in Buddhist accounts of the birth > of Aj?ta?atru, but that is about it! > > I have the w?rterbuch entry, but the information here is somewhat > lacking in context, by its very nature. > > Can anyone help me? > > With All Best Wishes, > > James Hegarty > Cardiff University > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bb145.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available URL: From asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI Tue Nov 16 12:47:01 2010 From: asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 10 14:47:01 +0200 Subject: Raining Blood: rudhiravar=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=A3a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090790.23782.16913799606070167373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In RaamaayaNa 3,22,1 "a rumbling storm cloud" (mahaameghas tumulo), "ruddy as the wild ass" (gardabhaaruNaH, not "mule-gray" as translated by Pollock 1990: III,133), "rained water red as blood" (zoNitodakam abhyavarSat). This is one of many ominous portents mentioned in this context. Best regards, Asko Parpola Quoting "James Hegarty" : > Dear Colleagues, > > Has anyone come across this term (rudhiravar?a) outside of the war > books of the Mah?bh?rata? > > I am especially interested where it occurs as a portent of future > violence etc. I am aware of its use in Buddhist accounts of the > birth of Aj?ta?atru, but that is about it! > > I have the w?rterbuch entry, but the information here is somewhat > lacking in context, by its very nature. > > Can anyone help me? > > With All Best Wishes, > > James Hegarty > Cardiff University > > From somadevah at MAC.COM Tue Nov 16 19:51:10 2010 From: somadevah at MAC.COM (Som Dev Vasudeva) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 10 14:51:10 -0500 Subject: Raining Blood: rudhiravar=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=A3a?= In-Reply-To: <1BDACA4F-8B83-46F8-A508-46F7E681FF5B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227090802.23782.12246511750558896774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some further references worth pursing: Atharvavedapari?i??as.txt:3860: (AVParis_72,3.4) rajovar?am upalavar?a? dadhimadhugh?tak??ravar?a? majj?rudhira var?ati / The same but cited with variants in the Kau?ikapaddhati :13870:yadapi pari?i??e?u pa?hyate sarve g?he pravi??e sarvamev?lpaka? d???v? sarvasammito v?yu? sambhrame udakapr?durbh?ve gamane?u dhanu?sandhyolk?? parive??? vidyudda????aniparipraparigh?rddhe nirgh?te rajovar?a-upalavar?adak?imadhugh?tavar?amajj?rudhiravar?atih?nagabhast? dve m?rge vidyut vittak?aye somasya k?aye p?r?ap?ra?e k?ayasyavabh?s? sadyoparar?tr?di digd?hopadh?panagrahavai?amyam?roha?am?krama?a? gandharvanagaram?rutaprakopa? tithikara?amuh?rtanak?atrayogadhruvakak?ni grah?d?n?? samaviyoga? / R?m?ya?a 6.115.22ab: rajovar?a? samudbh?ta? pa?ya v?lukin?? prati / R?jatara?gi?? of ?r?vara 1:1059: v???y? saha rajovar?am apatad gagan?d bhuvi / There are also substantial discussions of clouds in works of K??i??stra see Wojtilla, Gyula, 2006 ?History of Kr?s?i??stra, a History of Indian Literature on Traditional Agriculture.? One such work I recently had the fortune to read that has abundant discussions of seasonal rainfall and prognostication was the K??ikarmavivecana. It seemed quite closely related to the little studied genre of ?Tantric meteorology? such as can be found in the Bhairav?yamegham?l?, that it might even be best identified as a separate genre: Tantric agriculture (?). I remember seeing an MS of this in the Wellcome Institute in London but cannot now find my photocopies of it. Best, Somadeva Vasudeva On Nov 16, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Bill Mak wrote: > For portents, your best source would be a jyoti?a text like B?hatsa?h?ta. I recall reading something about strange rain and bloody water. Try Ch.45 utp?t?dhy?ya? and you may find something there. > > Good luck! > > Bill M. Mak > > University of Kyoto > Graduate School of Humanities, Faculty of Letters > Department of Indological Studies > Yoshida-Honmachi, Sakyo-ku, > Kyoto, 606-8501, Japan > > bill.m.mak at gmail.com > > On 2010/11/16, at 21:15, James Hegarty wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> Has anyone come across this term (rudhiravar?a) outside of the war books of the Mah?bh?rata? >> >> I am especially interested where it occurs as a portent of future violence etc. I am aware of its use in Buddhist accounts of the birth of Aj?ta?atru, but that is about it! >> >> I have the w?rterbuch entry, but the information here is somewhat lacking in context, by its very nature. >> >> Can anyone help me? >> >> With All Best Wishes, >> >> James Hegarty >> Cardiff University From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Tue Nov 16 15:40:01 2010 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 10 16:40:01 +0100 Subject: Gangajala Vidyapeeth In-Reply-To: <20101116144701.37985mcre4ix92dh.aparpola@webmail.helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <161227090792.23782.10688680581143286260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for the exact location and nearest railway station to the Gangajala Vidyapeeth, Aliyavada, Gujarat. Please respond to me on my private email. Many thanks. Kenneth Zysk Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Asian Studies Section Artillerivej 86 DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Ph: +45 3532 8951 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk From mnstorm at MAC.COM Tue Nov 16 11:44:32 2010 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 10 17:14:32 +0530 Subject: Request from a student Message-ID: <161227090785.23782.9232188691844517547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, I have a student this term who is doing a research project on the perceptions of "Aryanism" by the Hindu political right in contemporary India. She is interested in how this plays out in national identity politics. She asked if I could put this to you all and see if anyone is willing to swim in these murky waters: If it's possible, I would appreciate it if you would be willing to share any archived threads related to this topic, especially those with intrusions from pro-Hindutva nationalists. I would also be grateful to hear any of your related thoughts, concerns, or research advice, even if it's something small. One specific area in which I would appreciate your thoughts is the basic question of why the concept of Aryan Identity is concerning. Apart from the simple matter of there being little historical evidence to support their claim, why should anyone care that Hindu nationalists cling to the idea of the "Arya" as an indigenous Indian civilization? What does it mean for the rest of India, or the rest of the world? Many Thanks to anyone willing to help! Mary Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director and Lecturer India: National Identity and the Arts and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad http://www.sit.edu/studyabroad F 301 Lado Sarai New Delhi 110030 India Mobile: +91 98106 98003 From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Tue Nov 16 20:17:48 2010 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (gthomgt at COMCAST.NET) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 10 20:17:48 +0000 Subject: Potential misunderstanding In-Reply-To: <483930975.1031709.1289938529204.JavaMail.root@sz0152a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <161227090804.23782.10495849247455891680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, Lars Martin and I have had a private and?amicable?discussion of this matter.? It appears that some of the features of his edition of the Gita which I cited in my brief book notice were imposed by his editor and should not be attributed to Lars Martin himself.? I make it clear in the note that I consider Lars Martin a good Sanskritist and that his interpretation of the Gita is a reliable one.? I note? a couple of passages where the translation is not quite accurate, as well as one sloka [3.15] where lines cd are lost.? Other than such minor things, my main point was?about the sociolinguistic register of both the introduction and the translation: the diction seemed to me to be too colloquial.? Another feature of the book which struck me as inconsistent was its fetishization of devanagari on the book's covers [multi-colored devanagari everywhere!].? While I have no argument with the use of devanagari?in this edition, I do think that it is inconsistent pedagogy?to dismiss accurate transliteration of it?both in the introduction and the translation?[in the introduction, accurate, standard,?transliteration is abruptly dismissed as "ugly"].? In any case, I acknowledge the fact that Lars Martin is no New Ager.? May any and all?misunderstandings be hereby dispelled. George Thompson p.s.? By the way, in his personal communication with me, Lars Martin states that he plans to send a copy of my book notice to his editor, in order to persuade him to trust more in Lars Martin's own scholarly instincts in the future.? Also, let it be noted that this book notice also discusses [positively]?Angelika Malinar's 2007 book: The Bhagavad Gita: Doctrines and Contexts, Cambridge Univ. Press. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lars Martin Fosse" < lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 1:44:55 PM Subject: [INDOLOGY] Potential misunderstanding Dear list! ? George Thompson has recently published a critique of my translation of the Bhagavad Gita which contains a possibly misleading piece of information. Thompson brackets my translation in the New Age category, thereby potentially creating the impression that I myself am a supporter of New Age religiosity. I am nothing of the sort. I am in no way involved with New Age. ?? ? ? ? ? ?My translation was published by a small American publisher specialising in Yoga texts. The series also contains the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, translated by Brian Dana Akers, as well as the Shiva Samhita and the Gheranda Samhita, both translated by James Mallinson. More to follow. The books mostly have the same format: a short, popular introduction, the Sanskrit text with interlinear translation, an index. There are no bibliographies, no comments, no critical apparatus and no footnotes. The editions are partly intended for the mass market, partly for students of Sanskrit and others who would like to read the text with an interlinear translation, or simply have quick access to the Sanskrit source. Thus, they have been stripped down to the bare essentials. I personally find it difficult to associate these editions with New Age, but everybody can be the judge of that. ? Best regards, ? Lars Martin Fosse ? From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: ?+47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no ? ? From m.b.jones at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Wed Nov 17 03:12:17 2010 From: m.b.jones at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Michael Brattus Jones) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 10 21:12:17 -0600 Subject: Raining Blood: rudhiravar=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=A3a?= Message-ID: <161227090811.23782.14845792315104741250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The specific text Prof. Vasudeva mentioned, the Kr??ikarmavivecana, is also known as Kr??ipaddhati, Kr??isa?graha, and the Kr??ipar??ara?. It is under the last of these names that a critical edition was published in 1960 by Girija Prasanna Majumdar and Sures Chandra Bannerji, through the Asiatic Society's Bibliotheca Indica (Work 285). I have a mostly un-proofed unicode transliteration that I'd be happy to share, although a preliminary search for specifically red rains came up dry. Yours, Mike B. Jones (theojijo at yahoo.com) PhD student, UT Austin From: Som Dev Vasudeva To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Tue, November 16, 2010 1:51:10 PM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Raining Blood: rudhiravar?a Some further references worth pursing: Atharvavedapari?i??as.txt:3860: (AVParis_72,3.4) rajovar?am upalavar?a? dadhimadhugh?tak??ravar?a? majj?rudhira var?ati / The same but cited with variants in the Kau?ikapaddhati :13870:yadapi pari?i??e?u pa?hyate sarve g?he pravi??e sarvamev?lpaka? d???v? sarvasammito v?yu? sambhrame udakapr?durbh?ve gamane?u dhanu?sandhyolk?? parive??? vidyudda????aniparipraparigh?rddhe nirgh?te rajovar?a-upalavar?adak?imadhugh?tavar?amajj?rudhiravar?atih?nagabhast? dve m?rge vidyut vittak?aye somasya k?aye p?r?ap?ra?e k?ayasyavabh?s? sadyoparar?tr?di digd?hopadh?panagrahavai?amyam?roha?am?krama?a? gandharvanagaram?rutaprakopa? tithikara?amuh?rtanak?atrayogadhruvakak?ni grah?d?n?? samaviyoga? / R?m?ya?a 6.115.22ab: rajovar?a? samudbh?ta? pa?ya v?lukin?? prati / R?jatara?gi?? of ?r?vara 1:1059: v???y? saha rajovar?am apatad gagan?d bhuvi / There are also substantial discussions of clouds in works of K??i??stra see Wojtilla, Gyula, 2006 ?History of Kr?s?i??stra, a History of Indian Literature on Traditional Agriculture.? One such work I recently had the fortune to read that has abundant discussions of seasonal rainfall and prognostication was the K??ikarmavivecana. It seemed quite closely related to the little studied genre of ?Tantric meteorology? such as can be found in the Bhairav?yamegham?l?, that it might even be best identified as a separate genre: Tantric agriculture (?). I remember seeing an MS of this in the Wellcome Institute in London but cannot now find my photocopies of it. Best, Somadeva Vasudeva On Nov 16, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Bill Mak wrote: > For portents, your best source would be a jyoti?a text like > B?hatsa?h?ta. I recall reading something about strange rain and > bloody water. Try Ch.45 utp?t?dhy?ya? and you may find something > there. > > Good luck! > > Bill M. Mak > > University of Kyoto > Graduate School of Humanities, Faculty of Letters > Department of Indological Studies > Yoshida-Honmachi, Sakyo-ku, > Kyoto, 606-8501, Japan > > bill.m.mak at gmail.com > > On 2010/11/16, at 21:15, James Hegarty wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> Has anyone come across this term (rudhiravar?a) outside of the war >> books of the Mah?bh?rata? >> >> I am especially interested where it occurs as a portent of future >> violence etc. I am aware of its use in Buddhist accounts of the >> birth of Aj?ta?atru, but that is about it! >> >> I have the w?rterbuch entry, but the information here is somewhat >> lacking in context, by its very nature. >> >> Can anyone help me? >> >> With All Best Wishes, >> >> James Hegarty >> Cardiff University From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO Tue Nov 16 21:54:29 2010 From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 10 22:54:29 +0100 Subject: Potential misunderstanding In-Reply-To: <598959006.1031325.1289938221441.JavaMail.root@sz0152a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <161227090806.23782.4197985866269251129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like thank George Thompson for shoring up my reputation as a rational man. As for the rest of his critique, I shall just have to accept it. Anyway, anybody can read the book if they care and form their own opinion. Lars Martin From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO Tue Nov 16 21:55:12 2010 From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 10 22:55:12 +0100 Subject: Raining Blood: ru dhiravar=?UTF-8?Q?=E1=B9=A3a?= In-Reply-To: <1BDACA4F-8B83-46F8-A508-46F7E681FF5B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227090809.23782.520108575521719573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For what it is worth, here is a scientific explanation of the phenomenon with some literary references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_rain Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Bill Mak > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:06 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Raining Blood: rudhiravar?a > > For portents, your best source would be a jyoti?a text like > B?hatsa?h?ta. I recall reading something about strange rain > and bloody water. Try Ch.45 utp?t?dhy?ya? and you may find > something there. > > Good luck! > > Bill M. Mak > > University of Kyoto > Graduate School of Humanities, Faculty of Letters Department > of Indological Studies Yoshida-Honmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, > 606-8501, Japan > > bill.m.mak at gmail.com > > On 2010/11/16, at 21:15, James Hegarty wrote: > > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > Has anyone come across this term (rudhiravar?a) outside of the war > > books of the Mah?bh?rata? > > > > I am especially interested where it occurs as a portent of future > > violence etc. I am aware of its use in Buddhist accounts of > the birth > > of Aj?ta?atru, but that is about it! > > > > I have the w?rterbuch entry, but the information here is somewhat > > lacking in context, by its very nature. > > > > Can anyone help me? > > > > With All Best Wishes, > > > > James Hegarty > > Cardiff University From bill.m.mak at GMAIL.COM Tue Nov 16 17:05:50 2010 From: bill.m.mak at GMAIL.COM (Bill Mak) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 10 02:05:50 +0900 Subject: Raining Blood: rudhiravar=?UTF-8?Q?=E1=B9=A3a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090797.23782.14312558944980626455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For portents, your best source would be a jyoti?a text like B?hatsa?h?ta. I recall reading something about strange rain and bloody water. Try Ch.45 utp?t?dhy?ya? and you may find something there. Good luck! Bill M. Mak University of Kyoto Graduate School of Humanities, Faculty of Letters Department of Indological Studies Yoshida-Honmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, 606-8501, Japan bill.m.mak at gmail.com On 2010/11/16, at 21:15, James Hegarty wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Has anyone come across this term (rudhiravar?a) outside of the war > books of the Mah?bh?rata? > > I am especially interested where it occurs as a portent of future > violence etc. I am aware of its use in Buddhist accounts of the > birth of Aj?ta?atru, but that is about it! > > I have the w?rterbuch entry, but the information here is somewhat > lacking in context, by its very nature. > > Can anyone help me? > > With All Best Wishes, > > James Hegarty > Cardiff University From rpg at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Nov 17 22:58:32 2010 From: rpg at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert Goldman) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 10 14:58:32 -0800 Subject: Raining Blood: rudhiravar=?UTF-8?Q?=E1=B9=A3a?= In-Reply-To: <942A9715-03E4-4C1E-BC6A-91F9997E55E9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227090822.23782.14636592009408023547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although the exact terms vary, the raining of blood is mentioned frequently in the Yuddhak???a of the V?lm?kir?m?ya?a as one of the portents of calamity for the warrior to whom they appear. See the following verses in the critical edition: 6.26.22; 6.31.5; 6.41.33; 6.83.33; 6.94.15. The most common expression is vavar?a rudhiram... Dr. R. P. Goldman Professor of Sanskrit Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 The University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 Tel: 510-642-4089 Fax: 510-642-2409 On Nov 17, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > Raining blood (along with earthquakes, the weeping of images and > many other portents) is included in an account of Adbhuta??nti in > the P?rva-K?ra??gama (p. 714 of edition of 1921 [Kaliyuga 5023]): > > bh?mika?pe nad?k?obhe k?pak?obhe ta??kake| > pratim?rodane caiva tata? ?o?itavar?ake|| 144F:5|| > ? > > Dominic Goodall > > On 16-Nov-2010, at 8:51 PM, Som Dev Vasudeva wrote: > >> Some further references worth pursing: >> >> Atharvavedapari?i??as.txt:3860: (AVParis_72,3.4) rajovar?am >> upalavar?a? dadhimadhugh?tak??ravar?a? majj?rudhira >> var?ati / >> The same but cited with variants in the Kau?ikapaddhati : >> 13870:yadapi pari?i??e?u pa?hyate sarve g?he pravi??e >> sarvamev?lpaka? d???v? sarvasammito v?yu? sambhrame >> udakapr?durbh?ve gamane?u dhanu?sandhyolk?? parive??? >> vidyudda????aniparipraparigh?rddhe nirgh?te rajovar?a- >> upalavar?adak?imadhugh?tavar?amajj?rudhiravar?atih?nagabhast? >> dve m?rge vidyut vittak?aye somasya k?aye p?r?ap?ra?e >> k?ayasyavabh?s? sadyoparar?tr?di >> digd?hopadh?panagrahavai?amyam?roha?am?krama?a? >> gandharvanagaram?rutaprakopa? >> tithikara?amuh?rtanak?atrayogadhruvakak?ni grah?d?n?? >> samaviyoga? / >> >> R?m?ya?a 6.115.22ab: rajovar?a? samudbh?ta? pa?ya >> v?lukin?? prati / >> >> R?jatara?gi?? of ?r?vara 1:1059: v???y? saha >> rajovar?am apatad gagan?d bhuvi / >> >> There are also substantial discussions of clouds in works of >> K??i??stra see Wojtilla, Gyula, 2006 ?History of >> Kr?s?i??stra, a History of Indian Literature on Traditional >> Agriculture.? One such work I recently had the fortune to read >> that has abundant discussions of seasonal rainfall and >> prognostication was the K??ikarmavivecana. It seemed quite >> closely related to the little studied genre of ?Tantric >> meteorology? such as can be found in the Bhairav?yamegham?l?, >> that it might even be best identified as a separate genre: Tantric >> agriculture (?). I remember seeing an MS of this in the Wellcome >> Institute in London but cannot now find my photocopies of it. >> >> Best, >> >> Somadeva Vasudeva >> >> On Nov 16, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Bill Mak wrote: >> >>> For portents, your best source would be a jyoti?a text like >>> B?hatsa?h?ta. I recall reading something about strange rain >>> and bloody water. Try Ch.45 utp?t?dhy?ya? and you may find >>> something there. >>> >>> Good luck! >>> >>> Bill M. Mak >>> >>> University of Kyoto >>> Graduate School of Humanities, Faculty of Letters >>> Department of Indological Studies >>> Yoshida-Honmachi, Sakyo-ku, >>> Kyoto, 606-8501, Japan >>> >>> bill.m.mak at gmail.com >>> >>> On 2010/11/16, at 21:15, James Hegarty wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>> >>>> Has anyone come across this term (rudhiravar?a) outside of the >>>> war books of the Mah?bh?rata? >>>> >>>> I am especially interested where it occurs as a portent of future >>>> violence etc. I am aware of its use in Buddhist accounts of the >>>> birth of Aj?ta?atru, but that is about it! >>>> >>>> I have the w?rterbuch entry, but the information here is somewhat >>>> lacking in context, by its very nature. >>>> >>>> Can anyone help me? >>>> >>>> With All Best Wishes, >>>> >>>> James Hegarty >>>> Cardiff University From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Thu Nov 18 00:08:23 2010 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 10 16:08:23 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Raining_Blood:_rudhiravar_=E1=B9=A3a?= In-Reply-To: <88A3AEFE-76AE-46EE-9574-B94BF9BB55CD@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227090825.23782.6837321616861914727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From the Kara? Vataip Pa?alam (?ra?iya K???am), Kampar?m?ya?am: 69. 3040 Hearing those words, a R?k?asa came whose name was Akampana, of great learning and one among them who had good to him, and he said, ?Lord! Let me say something. It is right to be very fierce in battle, O you who are most virile among all heroes! but around this action we pursue, there have been evil omens. 70. 3041 ?The clouds have been roaring, pouring down a very great rain of blood and the Sun God, look at him, he is surrounded by a halo! Notice how there are flocks of crows that hover above your flag and fight each other, fall, cry out, and fallen roll on the earth...." The relevant Tamil is: kuruti m? ma?ai corinta?a m?ka?ka? kumu?i No doubt there are other instances in Kampa?, since he was following V?lm?ki. I have not found anything in Sangam Literature. George Hart On Nov 17, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: > Although the exact terms vary, the raining of blood is mentioned frequently in the Yuddhak???a of the V?lm?kir?m?ya?a as one of the portents of calamity for the warrior to whom they appear. See the following verses in the critical edition: 6.26.22; 6.31.5; 6.41.33; 6.83.33; 6.94.15. The most common expression is vavar?a rudhiram... > Dr. R. P. Goldman > Professor of Sanskrit > Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies > MC # 2540 > The University of California at Berkeley > Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > Tel: 510-642-4089 > Fax: 510-642-2409 > > > > > On Nov 17, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > >> Raining blood (along with earthquakes, the weeping of images and many other portents) is included in an account of Adbhuta??nti in the P?rva-K?ra??gama (p. 714 of edition of 1921 [Kaliyuga 5023]): >> >> bh?mika?pe nad?k?obhe k?pak?obhe ta??kake| >> pratim?rodane caiva tata? ?o?itavar?ake|| 144F:5|| >> ? >> >> Dominic Goodall >> >> On 16-Nov-2010, at 8:51 PM, Som Dev Vasudeva wrote: >> >>> Some further references worth pursing: >>> >>> Atharvavedapari?i??as.txt:3860: (AVParis_72,3.4) rajovar?am upalavar?a? dadhimadhugh?tak??ravar?a? majj?rudhira var?ati / >>> The same but cited with variants in the Kau?ikapaddhati :13870:yadapi pari?i??e?u pa?hyate sarve g?he pravi??e sarvamev?lpaka? d???v? sarvasammito v?yu? sambhrame udakapr?durbh?ve gamane?u dhanu?sandhyolk?? parive??? vidyudda????aniparipraparigh?rddhe nirgh?te rajovar?a-upalavar?adak?imadhugh?tavar?amajj?rudhiravar?atih?nagabhast? dve m?rge vidyut vittak?aye somasya k?aye p?r?ap?ra?e k?ayasyavabh?s? sadyoparar?tr?di digd?hopadh?panagrahavai?amyam?roha?am?krama?a? gandharvanagaram?rutaprakopa? tithikara?amuh?rtanak?atrayogadhruvakak?ni grah?d?n?? samaviyoga? / >>> >>> R?m?ya?a 6.115.22ab: rajovar?a? samudbh?ta? pa?ya v?lukin?? prati / >>> >>> R?jatara?gi?? of ?r?vara 1:1059: v???y? saha rajovar?am apatad gagan?d bhuvi / >>> >>> There are also substantial discussions of clouds in works of K??i??stra see Wojtilla, Gyula, 2006 ?History of Kr?s?i??stra, a History of Indian Literature on Traditional Agriculture.? One such work I recently had the fortune to read that has abundant discussions of seasonal rainfall and prognostication was the K??ikarmavivecana. It seemed quite closely related to the little studied genre of ?Tantric meteorology? such as can be found in the Bhairav?yamegham?l?, that it might even be best identified as a separate genre: Tantric agriculture (?). I remember seeing an MS of this in the Wellcome Institute in London but cannot now find my photocopies of it. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Somadeva Vasudeva >>> >>> On Nov 16, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Bill Mak wrote: >>> >>>> For portents, your best source would be a jyoti?a text like B?hatsa?h?ta. I recall reading something about strange rain and bloody water. Try Ch.45 utp?t?dhy?ya? and you may find something there. >>>> >>>> Good luck! >>>> >>>> Bill M. Mak >>>> >>>> University of Kyoto >>>> Graduate School of Humanities, Faculty of Letters >>>> Department of Indological Studies >>>> Yoshida-Honmachi, Sakyo-ku, >>>> Kyoto, 606-8501, Japan >>>> >>>> bill.m.mak at gmail.com >>>> >>>> On 2010/11/16, at 21:15, James Hegarty wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> Has anyone come across this term (rudhiravar?a) outside of the war books of the Mah?bh?rata? >>>>> >>>>> I am especially interested where it occurs as a portent of future violence etc. I am aware of its use in Buddhist accounts of the birth of Aj?ta?atru, but that is about it! >>>>> >>>>> I have the w?rterbuch entry, but the information here is somewhat lacking in context, by its very nature. >>>>> >>>>> Can anyone help me? >>>>> >>>>> With All Best Wishes, >>>>> >>>>> James Hegarty >>>>> Cardiff University From Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR Wed Nov 17 16:26:55 2010 From: Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR (=?utf-8?Q?G=C3=A9rard_Huet?=) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 10 17:26:55 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Raining_Blood:_rudhiravar_=E1=B9=A3a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090815.23782.14570531948977823655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> R?m?ya?a 1.29.11b: (r?k?as??) rudhiraugh?n av?s?jan From mnstorm at MAC.COM Wed Nov 17 12:31:14 2010 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 10 18:01:14 +0530 Subject: Request from a Student Message-ID: <161227090813.23782.14941699208243626809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, Thanks to all of you willing to help my student negotiate Indian politics and her understanding of the Aryan debates. All Best wishes, Mary Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director and Lecturer India: National Identity and the Arts and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad http://www.sit.edu/studyabroad F 301 Lado Sarai New Delhi 110030 India Mobile: +91 98106 98003 From andra.kleb at GOOGLEMAIL.COM Wed Nov 17 20:39:36 2010 From: andra.kleb at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (Andrey Klebanov) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 10 21:39:36 +0100 Subject: e-text of siddhas=?utf-8?Q?=C4=81ra?= In-Reply-To: <54AAB2F7-8B57-4B1A-973B-E4530C2604F8@inria.fr> Message-ID: <161227090818.23782.10091378279480398618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members! is anyone of you by any chance aware / in possession of an e-text of Siddhas?ra? (I'm thinking of preparing one, it would be a pity, however, to double someone's work --- there are so many other important texts awaiting digitalization) Thank you in advance and with the best regards Andrey Klebanov From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Wed Nov 17 22:44:05 2010 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 10 23:44:05 +0100 Subject: Raining Blood: rudhiravar=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=A3a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090820.23782.9216231692635987181.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raining blood (along with earthquakes, the weeping of images and many other portents) is included in an account of Adbhuta??nti in the P?rva-K?ra??gama (p. 714 of edition of 1921 [Kaliyuga 5023]): bh?mika?pe nad?k?obhe k?pak?obhe ta??kake| pratim?rodane caiva tata? ?o?itavar?ake|| 144F:5|| ? Dominic Goodall On 16-Nov-2010, at 8:51 PM, Som Dev Vasudeva wrote: > Some further references worth pursing: > > Atharvavedapari?i??as.txt:3860: (AVParis_72,3.4) rajovar?am upalavar?a? dadhimadhugh?tak??ravar?a? majj?rudhira var?ati / > The same but cited with variants in the Kau?ikapaddhati :13870:yadapi pari?i??e?u pa?hyate sarve g?he pravi??e sarvamev?lpaka? d???v? sarvasammito v?yu? sambhrame udakapr?durbh?ve gamane?u dhanu?sandhyolk?? parive??? vidyudda????aniparipraparigh?rddhe nirgh?te rajovar?a-upalavar?adak?imadhugh?tavar?amajj?rudhiravar?atih?nagabhast? dve m?rge vidyut vittak?aye somasya k?aye p?r?ap?ra?e k?ayasyavabh?s? sadyoparar?tr?di digd?hopadh?panagrahavai?amyam?roha?am?krama?a? gandharvanagaram?rutaprakopa? tithikara?amuh?rtanak?atrayogadhruvakak?ni grah?d?n?? samaviyoga? / > > R?m?ya?a 6.115.22ab: rajovar?a? samudbh?ta? pa?ya v?lukin?? prati / > > R?jatara?gi?? of ?r?vara 1:1059: v???y? saha rajovar?am apatad gagan?d bhuvi / > > There are also substantial discussions of clouds in works of K??i??stra see Wojtilla, Gyula, 2006 ?History of Kr?s?i??stra, a History of Indian Literature on Traditional Agriculture.? One such work I recently had the fortune to read that has abundant discussions of seasonal rainfall and prognostication was the K??ikarmavivecana. It seemed quite closely related to the little studied genre of ?Tantric meteorology? such as can be found in the Bhairav?yamegham?l?, that it might even be best identified as a separate genre: Tantric agriculture (?). I remember seeing an MS of this in the Wellcome Institute in London but cannot now find my photocopies of it. > > Best, > > Somadeva Vasudeva > > On Nov 16, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Bill Mak wrote: > >> For portents, your best source would be a jyoti?a text like B?hatsa?h?ta. I recall reading something about strange rain and bloody water. Try Ch.45 utp?t?dhy?ya? and you may find something there. >> >> Good luck! >> >> Bill M. Mak >> >> University of Kyoto >> Graduate School of Humanities, Faculty of Letters >> Department of Indological Studies >> Yoshida-Honmachi, Sakyo-ku, >> Kyoto, 606-8501, Japan >> >> bill.m.mak at gmail.com >> >> On 2010/11/16, at 21:15, James Hegarty wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> Has anyone come across this term (rudhiravar?a) outside of the war books of the Mah?bh?rata? >>> >>> I am especially interested where it occurs as a portent of future violence etc. I am aware of its use in Buddhist accounts of the birth of Aj?ta?atru, but that is about it! >>> >>> I have the w?rterbuch entry, but the information here is somewhat lacking in context, by its very nature. >>> >>> Can anyone help me? >>> >>> With All Best Wishes, >>> >>> James Hegarty >>> Cardiff University From rajam at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Nov 18 17:15:40 2010 From: rajam at EARTHLINK.NET (rajam) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 10 09:15:40 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Raining_Blood:_rudhiravar_=E1=B9=A3a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090833.23782.2013761025725366963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just noticed this mail! Correct, there's no references to "blood raining from above" in Sangam Literature. All the references to a "flood of blood" if you will, (???????? ?????; ????? ??????) are about the blood shed in a war. The first reference close to "blood raining from above" is found in Kalinkattupparani (????????????????) preceding Kampan's time. The verse is as follows: "matakkari maruppu i?a matam pularum?l? ma?appi?i maruppu e?a matam po?iyum?l? katirccu?ar vi?akku o?i ka?uttu eriyum?l? k?la mukil ce?kuruti k?la varum?l?" ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????????? ???????????? ??????? ??? ??????? ????????? ??? ?????? ?????????? ??? ??????? This verse is all about the omens noticed in the Kalinga country (modern Orissa?) when the chola king Kulottunkan waged war against Kalingam. Regards, Rajam On Nov 17, 2010, at 4:08 PM, George Hart wrote: > From the Kara? Vataip Pa?alam (?ra?iya K???am), > Kampar?m?ya?am: > > 69. 3040 > > Hearing those words, a R?k?asa came > whose name was Akampana, of great learning > and one among them who had good to him, > and he said, ?Lord! Let me say something. > It is right to be very fierce in battle, > O you who are most virile among > all heroes! but around this action > we pursue, there have been evil omens. > > 70. 3041 > > ?The clouds have been roaring, pouring down > a very great rain of blood > and the Sun God, look at him, > he is surrounded by a halo! > Notice how there are flocks of crows > that hover above your flag > and fight each other, fall, cry out, > and fallen roll on the earth...." > > The relevant Tamil is: > kuruti m? ma?ai corinta?a > m?ka?ka? kumu?i > > No doubt there are other instances in Kampa?, since he was > following V?lm?ki. I have not found anything in Sangam > Literature. George Hart > > On Nov 17, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: > >> Although the exact terms vary, the raining of blood is mentioned >> frequently in the Yuddhak???a of the V?lm?kir?m?ya?a as >> one of the portents of calamity for the warrior to whom they >> appear. See the following verses in the critical edition: >> 6.26.22; 6.31.5; 6.41.33; 6.83.33; 6.94.15. The most common >> expression is vavar?a rudhiram... >> Dr. R. P. Goldman >> Professor of Sanskrit >> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies >> MC # 2540 >> The University of California at Berkeley >> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 >> Tel: 510-642-4089 >> Fax: 510-642-2409 >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 17, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: >> >>> Raining blood (along with earthquakes, the weeping of images and >>> many other portents) is included in an account of Adbhuta??nti >>> in the P?rva-K?ra??gama (p. 714 of edition of 1921 [Kaliyuga >>> 5023]): >>> >>> bh?mika?pe nad?k?obhe k?pak?obhe ta??kake| >>> pratim?rodane caiva tata? ?o?itavar?ake|| 144F:5|| >>> ? >>> >>> Dominic Goodall >>> >>> On 16-Nov-2010, at 8:51 PM, Som Dev Vasudeva wrote: >>> >>>> Some further references worth pursing: >>>> >>>> Atharvavedapari?i??as.txt:3860: (AVParis_72,3.4) >>>> rajovar?am upalavar?a? dadhimadhugh?tak??ravar?a? >>>> majj?rudhira var?ati / >>>> The same but cited with variants in the Kau?ikapaddhati : >>>> 13870:yadapi pari?i??e?u pa?hyate sarve g?he >>>> pravi??e sarvamev?lpaka? d???v? sarvasammito >>>> v?yu? sambhrame udakapr?durbh?ve gamane?u >>>> dhanu?sandhyolk?? parive??? >>>> vidyudda????aniparipraparigh?rddhe nirgh?te rajovar?a- >>>> upalavar?adak?imadhugh?tavar?amajj?rudhiravar?atih?naga >>>> bhast? dve m?rge vidyut vittak?aye somasya k?aye >>>> p?r?ap?ra?e k?ayasyavabh?s? sadyoparar?tr?di >>>> digd?hopadh?panagrahavai?amyam?roha?am?krama?a? >>>> gandharvanagaram?rutaprakopa? >>>> tithikara?amuh?rtanak?atrayogadhruvakak?ni grah?d?n?? >>>> samaviyoga? / >>>> >>>> R?m?ya?a 6.115.22ab: rajovar?a? samudbh?ta? pa?ya >>>> v?lukin?? prati / >>>> >>>> R?jatara?gi?? of ?r?vara 1:1059: v???y? saha >>>> rajovar?am apatad gagan?d bhuvi / >>>> >>>> There are also substantial discussions of clouds in works of >>>> K??i??stra see Wojtilla, Gyula, 2006 ?History of >>>> Kr?s?i??stra, a History of Indian Literature on Traditional >>>> Agriculture.? One such work I recently had the fortune to read >>>> that has abundant discussions of seasonal rainfall and >>>> prognostication was the K??ikarmavivecana. It seemed quite >>>> closely related to the little studied genre of ?Tantric >>>> meteorology? such as can be found in the >>>> Bhairav?yamegham?l?, that it might even be best identified as >>>> a separate genre: Tantric agriculture (?). I remember seeing an >>>> MS of this in the Wellcome Institute in London but cannot now >>>> find my photocopies of it. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Somadeva Vasudeva >>>> >>>> On Nov 16, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Bill Mak wrote: >>>> >>>>> For portents, your best source would be a jyoti?a text like >>>>> B?hatsa?h?ta. I recall reading something about strange rain >>>>> and bloody water. Try Ch.45 utp?t?dhy?ya? and you may find >>>>> something there. >>>>> >>>>> Good luck! >>>>> >>>>> Bill M. Mak >>>>> >>>>> University of Kyoto >>>>> Graduate School of Humanities, Faculty of Letters >>>>> Department of Indological Studies >>>>> Yoshida-Honmachi, Sakyo-ku, >>>>> Kyoto, 606-8501, Japan >>>>> >>>>> bill.m.mak at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> On 2010/11/16, at 21:15, James Hegarty wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>>> >>>>>> Has anyone come across this term (rudhiravar?a) outside of >>>>>> the war books of the Mah?bh?rata? >>>>>> >>>>>> I am especially interested where it occurs as a portent of >>>>>> future violence etc. I am aware of its use in Buddhist >>>>>> accounts of the birth of Aj?ta?atru, but that is about it! >>>>>> >>>>>> I have the w?rterbuch entry, but the information here is >>>>>> somewhat lacking in context, by its very nature. >>>>>> >>>>>> Can anyone help me? >>>>>> >>>>>> With All Best Wishes, >>>>>> >>>>>> James Hegarty >>>>>> Cardiff University From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Thu Nov 18 10:30:09 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 10 11:30:09 +0100 Subject: e-text of siddhas=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=81ra?= In-Reply-To: <9392CCC1-544E-4261-82C6-8B43BB7A1EAD@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <161227090828.23782.982827074012475863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Andrey, Emmerick must have typed it, probably using the REE fonts and WordPerfect 4.2. I believe Prof. R. P. Das received the content of Emmerick's hard drive after he passed away. Since it is printed in cleanly-typeset roman font, it should be possible to get at least a first cut of the file by scanning at high resolution (600dpi+) and using OCR. However, this might be a violation of copyright. Best, Dominik On 17 November 2010 21:39, Andrey Klebanov wrote: > Dear list members! > > is anyone of you by any chance aware / in possession of an e-text of > Siddhas?ra? (I'm thinking of preparing one, it would be a pity, however, to > double someone's work --- there are so many other important texts awaiting > digitalization) > > Thank you in advance > and with the best regards > Andrey Klebanov From andra.kleb at GOOGLEMAIL.COM Thu Nov 18 16:01:36 2010 From: andra.kleb at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (Andrey Klebanov) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 10 17:01:36 +0100 Subject: e-text of siddhas=?utf-8?Q?=C4=81ra?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090831.23782.12807967255520669069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Dominik! I'll let you know if I'm finished that you can make it available to others as well. best, Andrey On 18.11.2010, at 11:30, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Dear Andrey, > > Emmerick must have typed it, probably using the REE fonts and WordPerfect 4.2. I believe Prof. R. P. Das received the content of Emmerick's hard drive after he passed away. > > Since it is printed in cleanly-typeset roman font, it should be possible to get at least a first cut of the file by scanning at high resolution (600dpi+) and using OCR. However, this might be a violation of copyright. > > Best, > Dominik > > > > On 17 November 2010 21:39, Andrey Klebanov wrote: > Dear list members! > > is anyone of you by any chance aware / in possession of an e-text of Siddhas?ra? (I'm thinking of preparing one, it would be a pity, however, to double someone's work --- there are so many other important texts awaiting digitalization) > > Thank you in advance > and with the best regards > Andrey Klebanov > From beitel at GWU.EDU Fri Nov 19 13:14:23 2010 From: beitel at GWU.EDU (Alfred Hiltebeitel) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 10 08:14:23 -0500 Subject: the koti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090836.23782.11108259793102255405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I have a question that Randy Kloetzli has asked me to communicate to INDOLOGY: "Is there some scholarship regarding the number known as the koti? Its value is 10 to the 7th power or 1 followed by 7 zeroes. Monier-Williams says only that it is the largest of the old order of numbers." If a conversation emerges here, I will communicate it to Randy. Or you could write him offline at catrandu at comcast.net. Thanks, Alf Alf Hiltebeitel Professor of Religion, History and Human Sciences Department of Religion 2106 G Street, NW George Washington University Washington DC 20052 From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Nov 19 14:54:39 2010 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 10 08:54:39 -0600 Subject: the koti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090838.23782.8026931738769620471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Alf (and Randy), In her _Mathematics in India_ (PUP), Kim Plofker (p. 14) cites Yajurveda 7.2.20 that gives a decimal progression running up to 10 to the 12th (a billion). Here, the term for ten million is not ko.ti, but arbuda, so pace M-W, ko.ti was not the highest in the old series, whatever that means. Unfortunately, Plofker's book does not seem to deal with number names in a systematic way, and I find no reference to the ko.ti in it. (Of course, Plofker's book is most useful and excellent on many other matters.) The designations for numbers in India are usefully tabulated in Georges Ifrah, Histoire universelle des Chiffres (there is an English trans. available, but I have only the original French), vol. 1, ch. 24 ("La civilisation indienne: berceau de la num?risation moderne"), pp. 940ff. ("Une culture atteinte par la 'folie' des grands nombres"). Ko.ti occurs here in many lists, and always, so far as I can see, meaning a "crore," 10 to the 7th. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Nov 19 15:21:14 2010 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 10 10:21:14 -0500 Subject: the koti In-Reply-To: <20101119085439.AEQ30387@mstore02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227090840.23782.8197248339061862913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The English translation of the 1st ed. of Ifrah's work is From one to zero : a universal history of numbers, published by Viking and Penguin in 1985. That of the expanded 2nd ed. is The universal history of numbers : from prehistory to the invention of the computer, published in London by Harvill (1998) in 1 vol. and in New York by Wiley (2002) in 2 vols. The book also includes, as I recall, an excellent cumulation of the various number-words (bhutasankhya), along with katapayadi etc. Allen -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 9:55 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti Dear Alf (and Randy), In her _Mathematics in India_ (PUP), Kim Plofker (p. 14) cites Yajurveda 7.2.20 that gives a decimal progression running up to 10 to the 12th (a billion). Here, the term for ten million is not ko.ti, but arbuda, so pace M-W, ko.ti was not the highest in the old series, whatever that means. Unfortunately, Plofker's book does not seem to deal with number names in a systematic way, and I find no reference to the ko.ti in it. (Of course, Plofker's book is most useful and excellent on many other matters.) The designations for numbers in India are usefully tabulated in Georges Ifrah, Histoire universelle des Chiffres (there is an English trans. available, but I have only the original French), vol. 1, ch. 24 ("La civilisation indienne: berceau de la num?risation moderne"), pp. 940ff. ("Une culture atteinte par la 'folie' des grands nombres"). Ko.ti occurs here in many lists, and always, so far as I can see, meaning a "crore," 10 to the 7th. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Nov 19 16:43:13 2010 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 10 10:43:13 -0600 Subject: the koti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090852.23782.4392753654447521387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Western sources were clearly aware of the treatment of higher numbers in Indian sources in the early 19th c. John Taylor, in his _Lilawati_ (Bombay 1816) already gives them up to 17 places (giving ko.ti in the form kotya) and mentions that Wilkins had earlier presented the decimal numbers up to 22 places. I mentioned Ifrah just as a handy compilation -- it is not an Indological work, nor a work that treats the history of the many disciplines from which Ifrah compiled his material. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI Fri Nov 19 16:14:03 2010 From: asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 10 18:14:03 +0200 Subject: the koti In-Reply-To: <20101119085439.AEQ30387@mstore02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227090843.23782.6303936467905857786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An early but excellent paper on the high numbers is Weber, Albrecht, 1861. Vedische Angaben ?ber Zeittheilung und hohe Zahlen. Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft 15: 132-139. Best regards, Asko Parpola Quoting mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU: > Dear Alf (and Randy), > > In her _Mathematics in India_ (PUP), Kim Plofker (p. 14) > cites Yajurveda 7.2.20 that gives a decimal progression > running up to 10 to the 12th (a billion). Here, the > term for ten million is not ko.ti, but arbuda, so pace > M-W, ko.ti was not the highest in the old series, whatever > that means. Unfortunately, Plofker's book does not seem to > deal with number names in a systematic way, and I find > no reference to the ko.ti in it. (Of course, Plofker's > book is most useful and excellent on many other matters.) > > The designations for numbers in India are usefully tabulated > in Georges Ifrah, Histoire universelle des Chiffres (there > is an English trans. available, but I have only the > original French), vol. 1, ch. 24 ("La civilisation indienne: berceau > de la num?risation moderne"), pp. 940ff. ("Une culture atteinte par > la 'folie' des grands nombres"). Ko.ti > occurs here in many lists, and always, so far as I can > see, meaning a "crore," 10 to the 7th. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 19 16:24:02 2010 From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 10 21:54:02 +0530 Subject: the koti Message-ID: <161227090847.23782.8855625991640836428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti To: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 4:22 PM Did not Wackernagel-Debrunner AiG III 375-377 supplied the information as early as 1930? Best DB --- On Fri, 19/11/10, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 2:54 PM Dear Alf (and Randy), In her _Mathematics in India_ (PUP), Kim Plofker (p. 14) cites Yajurveda 7.2.20 that gives a decimal progression running up to 10 to the 12th (a billion). Here, the term for ten million is not ko.ti, but arbuda, so pace M-W, ko.ti was not the highest in the old series, whatever that means. Unfortunately, Plofker's book does not seem to deal with number names in a systematic way, and I find no reference to the ko.ti in it. (Of course, Plofker's book is most useful and excellent on many other matters.) The designations for numbers in India are usefully tabulated in Georges Ifrah, Histoire universelle des Chiffres (there is an English trans. available, but I have only the original French), vol. 1, ch. 24 ("La civilisation indienne: berceau de la num?risation moderne"), pp. 940ff. ("Une culture atteinte par la 'folie' des grands nombres"). Ko.ti occurs here in many lists, and always, so far as I can see, meaning a "crore," 10 to the 7th. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 19 16:26:54 2010 From: dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 10 21:56:54 +0530 Subject: Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti Message-ID: <161227090849.23782.4015735307002162229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti To: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 4:22 PM Please read as follows. I express regret Did not Wackernagel-Debrunner AiG III 375-377 supply the information as early as 1930? Best DB --- On Fri, 19/11/10, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 2:54 PM Dear Alf (and Randy), In her _Mathematics in India_ (PUP), Kim Plofker (p. 14) cites Yajurveda 7.2.20 that gives a decimal progression running up to 10 to the 12th (a billion). Here, the term for ten million is not ko.ti, but arbuda, so pace M-W, ko.ti was not the highest in the old series, whatever that means. Unfortunately, Plofker's book does not seem to deal with number names in a systematic way, and I find no reference to the ko.ti in it. (Of course, Plofker's book is most useful and excellent on many other matters.) The designations for numbers in India are usefully tabulated in Georges Ifrah, Histoire universelle des Chiffres (there is an English trans. available, but I have only the original French), vol. 1, ch. 24 ("La civilisation indienne: berceau de la num?risation moderne"), pp. 940ff. ("Une culture atteinte par la 'folie' des grands nombres"). Ko.ti occurs here in many lists, and always, so far as I can see, meaning a "crore," 10 to the 7th. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Sun Nov 21 09:44:46 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 10 10:44:46 +0100 Subject: ORI Mysore Message-ID: <161227090854.23782.7171957442567728531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A nice little puff in the local papers for the ORI, Mysore: http://www.starofmysore.com/main.asp?type=specialnews&item=5317 From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Nov 23 02:02:43 2010 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Thrasher, Allen) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 10 21:02:43 -0500 Subject: the koti In-Reply-To: <20101119085439.AEQ30387@mstore02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227090856.23782.17708919214018258896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was queried off the list whether my memory of Ifrah's book containing a cumulation of the various number-words was accurate. I checked the 2000 English ed. and found I understated what is included in the second chapter Matthew mentions (chapter title in English trans., "Part II: Dictionary of the Numeral Symbols of Indian Civilisation," pp. 440-510: 70 pages of small print). Under each of the numbers there is a list of words meaning that number, and conversely under each word the number it means. There are also a lagre number of topical articles, plus, as Matthew says, lists of powers of ten, individual articles for each word referring a power of ten, etc. etc. Ideally the book should be in every Indological reference library, IMHO. All this is only in the 2nd ed.; the treatment in the 1st is far smaller. Please note that the LOC cataloging, and therefore presumably that of other libraries that have copied LOC's record, is confusing about the 2nd English ed., partly because of ambiguities in the title page and spine information itself. "Universal history of numbers" is cataloged as if it were vol. 1 of a two volume work whereas "The universal history of computing : from the abacus to the quantum computer," the English trans. of vol. 2, is cataloged as if it were an independent work. The French of the 2nd ed. (1994) is unambiguous and has an overall title that covers both numbers and computing: "Histoire universelle des chiffres : l?intelligence des hommes raconte?e par les nombres et le calcul." There are a number of dictionaries in Indian languages about bhutasankhyas, some dealing solely with that subject and others including them in lists of numerical lists. If there is interest I will try to put together and post a bibliography of them, after checking some titles new to me that may or may not be on the subject. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Asian Division, Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4810 The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From kellera at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Tue Nov 23 10:55:20 2010 From: kellera at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Agathe Keller) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 10 11:55:20 +0100 Subject: the koti Message-ID: <161227090858.23782.7939304892767363847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Takao Hayashi in his edition, translation and study of the Bakhshali manuscript (Egbert Forsten, 1995), has made a study of different names for higher numbers in all sorts of texts, mathematical and non-mathematical (p.65-70). This includes names for 10 to the power 20 in certain recensions of the Ramayana (mahauga in the Bombay/Gorakhpur edition), or 10 to the power 23 in Mahavira's Ganitasarasamgraha (mahAkSobha). koti in this context always appears as a stable name for 10 to the power 7 (also sometimes called arbuda) but obviously much greater numbers could be considered. I have scans of those five pages of comparative tables for the names of numbers, that I can send to whom is interested, just write to me. And, Allen, I certainly would be very interested on information on Indian dictionaries on bhutaksankhyas! Agathe -- Agathe Keller Universit? PARIS 7 - CNRS Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 Adresse postale: Case 7093 5 rue Thomas Mann 75205 PARIS CEDEX 13 From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Tue Nov 23 14:01:42 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 10 15:01:42 +0100 Subject: the koti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090870.23782.16208604035108693262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen is quite right to say that Ifrah's magnificent book should be at all our elbows. It's an astonishing achievement, full of valuable reference materials for South Asianists of all stamps. I attach a quick scan of the page from the "Dictionary" mentioned below, that has the entry on ko?i. This is from my 1998 edition from Harvill Press, London, titled "The Universal History of Numbers from Prehistory to the Invention of the Computer" (ISBN 186046324X ). Dominik -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ifrah-koti2.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 721437 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kellera at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Wed Nov 24 05:32:50 2010 From: kellera at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Agathe Keller) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 10 06:32:50 +0100 Subject: the koti In-Reply-To: <4CEB9D98.8020500@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227090878.23782.5645224363825152206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, a message of Robert Goldmann off list, has made me realize that I posted an error : Hayashi actually lists 10 to the power 52 and 10 to the power 60 for mahaugha (note the transliteration mistake as well); but it seems that different powers of ten can be given under this name according to the Ramayana recension considered. sorry, Agathe Le 11/23/10 11:55 AM, Agathe Keller a ?crit : > Takao Hayashi in his edition, translation and study of the Bakhshali > manuscript (Egbert Forsten, 1995), has made a study of different names > for higher numbers in all sorts of texts, mathematical and > non-mathematical (p.65-70). This includes names for 10 to the power 20 > in certain recensions of the Ramayana (mahauga in the Bombay/Gorakhpur > edition), or 10 to the power 23 in Mahavira's Ganitasarasamgraha > (mahAkSobha). > > koti in this context always appears as a stable name for 10 to the > power 7 (also sometimes called arbuda) but obviously much greater > numbers could be considered. > > I have scans of those five pages of comparative tables for the names of > numbers, that I can send to whom is interested, just write to me. > > And, Allen, I certainly would be very interested on information on > Indian dictionaries on bhutaksankhyas! > > Agathe -- Agathe Keller Universit? PARIS 7 - CNRS Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 Equipe REHSEIS Case 7093 5 rue Thomas Mann 75205 PARIS CEDEX 13 00 33 1 57 27 68 87 /Adresse de livraison :/ /Universit? Paris 7 / /Laboratoire SPHERE / /UMR 7219 / /B?timent Condorcet 3? ?tage bureau 387A/ /10 rue A.Domont et L.Duquet/ /75013 PARIS/ From fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 25 03:47:11 2010 From: fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 10 22:47:11 -0500 Subject: Skanda Purana 70-71 Message-ID: <161227090880.23782.11461567234993822305.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, Does anyone have a copy of K???apras?da Bha??ar??'s edition of the early Skanda Pur??a, chapters 70-71, that they might be willing to scan for me? My copy of this text appears to be missing these chapters for some reason. Chapter 71 deals with the myth of ?arabha and Narasimha, I believe. I am missing from 70.59 to the end of chapter 71. I would be grateful if anyone could provide this for me off-list. Best Wishes, Benjamin Fleming -- Benjamin Fleming Visiting Scholar, Dept. of Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania 249 S. 36th Street, Claudia Cohen Hall, #234 Philadelphia, PA 19104 U.S.A. Telephone - 215-746-7792 http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~bfleming From fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 25 04:38:31 2010 From: fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 10 23:38:31 -0500 Subject: Skanda Purana 70-71 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090883.23782.18046301708021097934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, I have quickly received a copy of the text; no need for further help on this! Best, B > Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 22:47:11 -0500 > From: fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Skanda Purana 70-71 > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > > Dear List, > > Does anyone have a copy of K???apras?da Bha??ar??'s edition of the early Skanda Pur??a, chapters 70-71, that they might be willing to scan for me? My copy of this text appears to be missing these chapters for some reason. Chapter 71 deals with the myth of ?arabha and Narasimha, I believe. I am missing from 70.59 to the end of chapter 71. I would be grateful if anyone could provide this for me off-list. > > Best Wishes, > > Benjamin Fleming > > -- > > Benjamin Fleming Visiting Scholar, > Dept. of Religious Studies, > University of Pennsylvania 249 S. 36th Street, > Claudia Cohen Hall, #234 > Philadelphia, PA 19104 U.S.A. > Telephone - 215-746-7792 > http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~bfleming > > From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Thu Nov 25 16:52:38 2010 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 10 17:52:38 +0100 Subject: Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti Message-ID: <161227090885.23782.16154587848484296898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik W., Dear Allen T., As someone interested in Mathematics [for a very long time], I am sure this book has many qualities but STILL I believe praise should not be unqualified. The sample sent by Dominik shows that diacritics are not used in this book. (is "koti" the same as "kōṭi"?)* (is a RETROFLEX consonant the same thing as a DENTAL consonant?) [I have used "ō" because my field is Tamil and I MUST also distinguish between "koṭi" (கொடி) {"flag"} and "kōṭi" (கோடி) {"crore"}] This book illustrates a DISASTROUS trend (are philologists [and linguists] going to behave from now onwards like anthropologists?) It may be the case that Europeans (or "caucasians" ? ;-) are often unable to distinguish between "t" and "ṭ" and between "t" and "th" BUT this is not something to be encouraged. I personally vote AGAINST having this book on everybody's shelf until diacritics have been added. It might ALSO be useful to read the reviews which have been made of this book (thanks for pointers). -- Jean-Luc Chevillard On 23/11/2010 19:31, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Allen is quite right to say that Ifrah's magnificent book should be at all > our elbows. It's an astonishing achievement, full of valuable reference > materials for South Asianists of all stamps. I attach a quick scan of the > page from the "Dictionary" mentioned below, that has the entry on koṭi. > This is from my 1998 edition from Harvill Press, London, titled "The > Universal History of Numbers from Prehistory to the Invention of the > Computer" (ISBN > 186046324X > ). > > Dominik From hellwig7 at GMX.DE Thu Nov 25 22:06:32 2010 From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 10 22:06:32 +0000 Subject: New version of DCS Message-ID: <161227090891.23782.11580196685394788801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, a new version of the Digital Corpus of Sanskrit is available at http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/. The website now supports Devanagari output, which can be selected at the help center (follow the link "Help" and check Devanagari output). The Devanagari mode is marked by a (very) small green button just below the main menu. Best regards, Oliver Hellwig ------------------ PD Dr. Oliver Hellwig SAI, University of Heidelberg Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 69120 Heidelberg, Germany From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 26 08:13:26 2010 From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 10 03:13:26 -0500 Subject: Deccan Message-ID: <161227090897.23782.6259012656345140124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends~ Is it right to say that when one uses the word 'Deccan', particualry when one is talking about the arts, that it applies to the 5 kingdoms that sprang up after the collapse of the Vijaynagar Empire? One does not use the word 'Deccan' when one is talking about the Cholas and the Nayakas and the Chalukyas. Is this correct? Regards. Harsha Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia Carleton University, Ottawa, ON. Canada. From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Fri Nov 26 02:34:24 2010 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 10 08:04:24 +0530 Subject: Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090894.23782.1889370068187256142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jean-Luc, On the subject of pointers to reviews of this work: This critical review by Joseph Dauben mentions the various cautionary reviews by historians of mathematics from different fields that appeared in the ?Bulletin de l?Association des Professeurs de Math?matiques de l?Enseignement Publique? of the French version from which the English book was expanded: http://www.ams.org/notices/200201/rev-dauben.pdf Dominic Goodall On 25-Nov-2010, at 10:22 PM, Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD wrote: > Dear Dominik W., > Dear Allen T., > > As someone interested in Mathematics [for a very long time], > I am sure this book has many qualities > but STILL I believe praise should not be unqualified. > > The sample sent by Dominik shows that diacritics > are not used in this book. > (is "koti" the same as "kōṭi"?)* > (is a RETROFLEX consonant the same thing as a DENTAL consonant?) > [I have used "ō" because my field is Tamil > and I MUST also distinguish between "koṭi" (கொடி) {"flag"} and "kōṭi" (கோடி) {"crore"}] > > This book illustrates a DISASTROUS trend > (are philologists [and linguists] going to behave > from now onwards like anthropologists?) > > It may be the case that Europeans (or "caucasians" ? ;-) > are often unable to distinguish between "t" and "ṭ" > and between "t" and "th" > BUT this is not something to be encouraged. > > I personally vote AGAINST having this book on everybody's shelf > until diacritics have been added. > > It might ALSO be useful to read the reviews which have been made of this book (thanks for pointers). > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard > > > > On 23/11/2010 19:31, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >> Allen is quite right to say that Ifrah's magnificent book should be at all >> our elbows. It's an astonishing achievement, full of valuable reference >> materials for South Asianists of all stamps. I attach a quick scan of the >> page from the "Dictionary" mentioned below, that has the entry on koṭi. >> This is from my 1998 edition from Harvill Press, London, titled "The >> Universal History of Numbers from Prehistory to the Invention of the >> Computer" (ISBN >> 186046324X >> ). >> Dominik From will.sweetman at GMAIL.COM Thu Nov 25 19:26:56 2010 From: will.sweetman at GMAIL.COM (Will Sweetman) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 10 08:26:56 +1300 Subject: Fwd: PhD Scholarship in the History of Mathematics in India Message-ID: <161227090888.23782.7227006346087007610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Begin forwarded message: > From: Clemency Montelle > Date: 26 November 2010 2:21:04 AM NZDT > Subject: PhD Scholarship in the History of Mathematics in India > > Dear South Asia Colleagues, > > Please circulate this PhD Scholarship announcement. Do feel free to send me any recommendations as well. > > Best wishes from France, > Clemency > > --- > > ANNOUNCEMENT OF A PHD SCHOLARSHIP IN THE HISTORY OF MATHEMATICAL SCIENCES IN INDIA > > An international project on the history of computational methods in Sanskrit mathematics has recently been awarded a three-year grant from New Zealand's premier fund for research excellence, the Marsden Fund Council, administered by the Royal Society of New Zealand. (http://www.royalsociety.org.nz/2010/09/24/2010-round-press-releases/) > > As part of the activities of this project, the investigators are offering a doctoral study and research opportunity with the title "Research Associate" with three years of full support for 2011-2013 for the completion of a doctoral degree at the University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand (http://www.canterbury.ac.nz/). > > The scholarship will provide for an annual living allowance/stipend of $NZ25,000 and tuition costs for three years, and is tenable for study towards the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in the appropriate department or program (for example, the Department of Mathematics and Statistics, the History and Philosophy of Science program) on the topic of the history of mathematical sciences. > > The Research Associate will research and write under the supervision of the Principal Investigator a Ph.D. thesis relating to the project goals, preferably a critical edition with translation and commentary of a previously unpublished text on Sanskrit computational astronomy. He or she is also expected to assist (at a workload of 12 hours per week) in the design, maintenance, and data entry for the database and digital text processing resources created by the project investigators for the study of Sanskrit astronomical texts. > > The successful applicant will meet the following criteria at the time of appointment: > > * attainment of a sufficiently advanced level of study (preferably a Master's degree) to permit completion of the doctorate within the three years of the project. > > * sufficient knowledge of and interest in some combination of relevant fields of study, within history of the mathematical sciences and/or Indology, to design and complete under the supervisor's guidance a doctoral thesis relating to the project's objectives. > > * initiative and adaptability to cope with tasks in the Research Associate > workload ranging from routine data entry to learning (with assistance from the project investigators) the use of new software tools and techniques for software design and implementation. > > * fulfillment of the academic requirements for enrollment in the University of Canterbury for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy. > > With the approval of the Principal Investigator, this position may be held concurrently with any other scholarship, award, or bursary, excluding any such award requiring teaching or other duties separate from this project. > > How to Apply > > To apply, please send a cover letter briefly describing your relevant background and interests, a recent academic curriculum vitae, and the names and contact information of two references. > > Application deadline is 5 January 2011 > > Applications and queries should be sent to (pdf format preferable) > > Dr Clemency Montelle: > c.montelle at math.canterbury.ac.nz > or > Department of Mathematics and Statistics > University of Canterbury > Private Bag 4800 > Christchurch, 8140 > New Zealand > > > > Dr Clemency Montelle (Principal Investigator) > c.montelle at math.canterbury.ac.nz > Department of Mathematics and Statistics > University of Canterbury > Christchurch, New Zealand > > Dr Kim Plofker (Associate Investigator) > plofkerk at union.edu > Department of Mathematics > Union College > Schenectady NY, United States > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PhDscholarshipannouncement.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 53728 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Fri Nov 26 13:19:51 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 10 14:19:51 +0100 Subject: Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090902.23782.6481855831698296979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, Ifra's book is flawed, yes he is inconsistent and idiosyncratic in his use of diacritical marks, and yes, subject-specialists will find points to criticize sharply. And yet, and yet, one can still learn a great deal from the book. Sharply critical assertions are commonplace for books by authors who break disciplinary boundaries and attempt to absorb and write about matters on a global scale. Projects of this scale necessarily depend also on secondary sources, and if the secondary sources are not great (and whose fault is that?), that will be reflected in the overview works. Remember, Hayashi (1993) and Plofker (2009) are the first modern histories on Indian mathematics that have emerged from genuinely specialist authors, and Hayashi's book is in Japanese. In my personal view, this does not make global projects like Ifrah's not worth doing or not worth reading. In any case, some individuals seem to be driven by a powerful internal imperative to try to comprehend it ALL and write about it. These are the "mavens" of Malcolm Gladwell's tipping-point typology, and Ifrah certainly fits the profile. And while their diacritics may be untrustworthy, taking the large view has other advantages, such as the potential to correct myopic views of history that sometimes remain unchallenged for long periods within disciplinary boundaries. Where such global historical projects have the most potential dangerously to fail, in my view, is not in getting their diacritics wrong, but in constructing grand historical narratives, of finding evolutionary meanings in historical change. Ifrah mostly doesn't do that. It is what one might call an aggregative history, verging on being a pot-pourri. More important, criticisms about diacritical marks do not make Ifrah's book not worth having at one's elbow. Obviously one wouldn't use this book - or any popular encyclopedia-type publication - as a source for unchecked citations if writing a specialist peer-reviewed article. But as a way of learning a lot about many topics and for exploring concepts about the history of numbers and putting them into relationship with each other across a global spectrum, it is of unparalleled value. Show me a better book covering Ifrah's ground, and I'll switch to it immediately. Dominik -- PS Dauben's 2002 review in the AMS Notices is amongst the most flawed, mischievous and ungenerous pieces I have ever read. Ifrah is condemned for not following Menninger, except where he is condemned for following Menninger. He is criticised for offering a hypothesis on the origins of Mesopotamian sexagesimal counting, when he himself says that he is speculating. Ifrah is criticised for proposing that ninth-century Arabic digits are very similar to Nagari, when the Arabic manuscripts he refers to come from the tenth and eleventh centuries. (Is there a plausible historical scenario in which several authors writing in Arabic script would have systematically altered their digits over a period of a century to *more* resemble Nagari?) In fact, Dauben's main point seems to be that Ifrah frames bold hypotheses where subject-specialists prefer greater caution. Fair enough, when put like that, but Dauben doesn't put it like that. He prefers to assemble the views of half a dozen other scholars, and cite criticisms from other people's published reviews. Dauben's review (pt.I) is less a review of Ifrah than a sustained demonstration of how the (mainly French) establishment has closed ranks to denounce Ifrah's best-selling work. Tellingly, most critiques of Ifrah's work refer to the judgements of the "Bulletin de l'Association des Professeurs de Math?matiques de l'Enseignement Public" that mounted and published an organized series of attacks on Ifrah's work (link). I have not read Prof. P-S. Filliozat's contribution to that publication, but the citations given by Dauben do not sound wholly damning, and indeed contain words of praise, though he points out the absence of evidence for Ifrah's abacus theory in India. True, Ifrah is not always careful enough in acknowledging the work of predecessors, he is sometimes unjustifiably bombastic about his own achievements, and he's got a bee in his bonnet about the historical importance of the abacus, which he tends to see everywhere, even where it's not. But Dauben's review is clearly an assassination attempt rather than a balanced book review, and like many critiques of this type, the spectacle of the reviewer "writhing in the mixed smart and titillation of a fully indulged resentment" leaves little room for any deeper understanding of Ifrah's achievements and failings. It is hard to read Dauben's review without seeing a mental image of the establishment closing ranks against the outsider. And Ifrah does conform to the classic outsider figure, a school teacher who gave up his carreer and washed dishes in order to research and write this book, taking not enough advice - as they see it - from professional math historians. How galling that his book should be a best-seller. By contrast, Scriba's reviewis calmer, less unpleasant, and perhaps more trenchant a critique for that reason. However, Scriba's review is also mainly a rehash of the opinions of others, and does not engage originally with most of what Ifrah has written. Ifrah's work is ambitious, comprehensive, and yet flawed and controversial. Readers of this forum are surely capable of exercising sufficient scholarly judgement to read this book without becoming unduly corrupted. In fact, perhaps we should add that to the list of qualifications for joining. On 25 November 2010 17:52, Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD < jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote: > Dear Dominik W., > Dear Allen T., > > As someone interested in Mathematics [for a very long time], > I am sure this book has many qualities > but STILL I believe praise should not be unqualified. > > The sample sent by Dominik shows that diacritics > are not used in this book. > (is "koti" the same as "kōṭi"?)* > (is a RETROFLEX consonant the same thing as a DENTAL consonant?) > [I have used "ō" because my field is Tamil > and I MUST also distinguish between "koṭi" > (கொடி) {"flag"} and "kōṭi" > (கோடி) {"crore"}] > > This book illustrates a DISASTROUS trend > (are philologists [and linguists] going to behave > from now onwards like anthropologists?) > > It may be the case that Europeans (or "caucasians" ? ;-) > are often unable to distinguish between "t" and "ṭ" > and between "t" and "th" > BUT this is not something to be encouraged. > > I personally vote AGAINST having this book on everybody's shelf > until diacritics have been added. > > It might ALSO be useful to read the reviews which have been made of this > book (thanks for pointers). > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard > > > > On 23/11/2010 19:31, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >> Allen is quite right to say that Ifrah's magnificent book should be at all >> our elbows. It's an astonishing achievement, full of valuable reference >> materials for South Asianists of all stamps. I attach a quick scan of the >> page from the "Dictionary" mentioned below, that has the entry on >> koṭi. >> This is from my 1998 edition from Harvill Press, London, titled "The >> Universal History of Numbers from Prehistory to the Invention of the >> Computer" (ISBN >> 186046324X< >> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Universal-History-Numbers-Georges-Ifrah/dp/186046324X >> > >> ). >> >> Dominik >> > From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Fri Nov 26 12:19:04 2010 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 10 17:49:04 +0530 Subject: Fwd: [INDOLOGY] Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti Message-ID: <161227090899.23782.9187478672977382345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This must be intended for everyone, rather than just for me: Begin forwarded message: > From: > Date: 26 November 2010 4:34:36 PM GMT+05:30 > To: "Dominic Goodall" > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti > > > Ifrah's book suffers from the flaws of many large > synthetic works -- the author cannot be (and cannot > be expected to be!) -- a specialist in all the domains > treated. > > One might of course object: well then why not organize > a collaborative work by specialists? In response, I > offer the lopsided and barely coherent collection > of articles one finds in the Oxford Handbook of the > History of Mathematics (though many of the > articles, taken individually are useful and interesting). Multi-authored works seldom attain > to the sort of synthesis that a work by a > single author may aspire to, even if flawed. > > It's certainly good to be aware of the shortcomings as > detailed in Dauben's review, and thanks to Dominic > for circulating it. > > But I don't think the case has been made yet to > abandon Ifrah's work like the plague. It's a work of > first reference, not of last recourse. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Nov 27 01:19:56 2010 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 10 20:19:56 -0500 Subject: 5th Vedic Workshop, Bucharest, Sept.20-23, 2011 Message-ID: <161227090909.23782.15179011796829357230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, The Centre for Eurasiatic and Afroasiatic Studies (CEAS), Bucharest, has the pleasure to invite you to the fifth International Vedic Workshop to be organized on September 20th- 23rd 2011 in Bucharest, Romania. Suggested topics include: ? The formation of the Vedic canon: from family books to Vedic ??kh?s, from Traividya to Caturveda; ? Vedic schools and Vedic ?dialects?: ??kh?s and pr?ti??khyas; ? The relation between ??kh?s and cara?as of the same or different Vedas (Rg, S?ma, Yajur, Atharva): borrowing, citation, supplementation, usurpation (YV hautra); ? Vedic ??kh?s and cara?as in the performance of Vedic ritual: compatibility, incompatibility, competition and cooperation; ? Sources for the localization and history of the ??kh?s and their promoters (inscriptions, manuscript colophons, literary sources, etc.); ? Self-reflexivity of the Vedic tradition and its ??kh?s: anukrama??s, the (Yajur) vedavrk?a; ? A recourse to sva??kh?: the medieval and modern prayogas and paddhatis. Speakers will be invited on the basis of submitted abstracts of proposed contributions (before 30 January 2011). The Organizing Committee: Prof. Dr. Shrikant Bahulkar Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben Prof. Dr. Michael Witzel Secretariat: Dr. Julieta Rotaru -- julieta.rotaru at bmms.ro (See also the attached file) PLEASE SEND YOUR PROPOSALS TO: Looking forward to seeing you next year! Best wishes, SB, JH, JR, MW ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line: 617- 496 2990 ? ================ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 5IWV-CallforpapersGENERAL.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 169499 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kellner at ASIA-EUROPE.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Fri Nov 26 20:11:27 2010 From: kellner at ASIA-EUROPE.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Birgit Kellner) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 10 21:11:27 +0100 Subject: Fwd: H-ASIA: 5 Postdoctoral Fellowships for Zukunftsphilologie: Revisiting the Canons of Textual Practice / Berlin 2011/12 Message-ID: <161227090905.23782.9812470164002330075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> FYI - please spread the word among potential candidates (after all, Sanskrit is especially mentioned). With best regards, Birgit Kellner -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: H-ASIA: 5 Postdoctoral Fellowships for Zukunftsphilologie: Revisiting the Canons of Textual Practice / Berlin 2011/12 Datum: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 19:32:40 +0100 Von: Frank Conlon Antwort an: H-Net list for Asian History and Culture An: H-ASIA at H-NET.MSU.EDU H-ASIA November 26, 2010 Postdoctoral Fellowships (Five) for Zukunftsphilologie: Revisiting the Canons of Textual Practice / Berlin 2011/12 ************************************************************************ From: Georges Khalil CALL FOR APPLICATIONS FIVE POSTDOCTORAL FELLOWSHIPS FOR THE ACADEMIC YEAR 2011/2012 The Berlin-based Forum Transregionale Studien invites scholars to apply for five postdoctoral fellowships for the research project ZUKUNFTSPHILOLOGIE: REVISITING THE CANONS OF TEXTUAL SCHOLARSHIP The project Zukunftsphilologie endeavors to promote and emphasise primary textual scholarship beyond the classical humanistic canon. In an age of advanced communication, intellectual specialisation, and unprecedented migration of knowledge and people, the discipline of philology assumes new relevance. Zukunftsphilologie aspires to support research in marginalised, undocumented and displaced varieties of philology by revisiting pre-colonial texts and scholarly traditions in Asia, Africa, the Middle East as well as in Europe. The title 'Zukunftsphilologie' is inspired by the 1872 polemic between the classicist Ulrich von Wilamowitz-Moellendorff and Friedrich Nietzsche on the method and meaning of classical studies. The project draws on recent calls for a return to philology as particularly emphasised by Sheldon Pollock in his essay 'Future Philology?' and the late Edward Said?s essay 'The Return to Philology'. In order to promote historically-conscious philology, the project will foster research in the following areas: the genealogy and transformations of philological practice, philology?s place in the system of knowledge (e.g. its relation to science, theology, and jurisprudence), philology and the university, and philology and empire. Zukunftsphilologie aims to examine the role mobility, calamities, expulsions, and natural catastrophes play in the dissemination and globalisation of knowledge. How does the mobility of scholars, books, and manuscripts bring about scientific innovation (e.g. in tenth-century Baghdad, during the European Renaissance, or during the Ming dynasty)? What kind of knowledge systems are also displaced by these processes of reorganisation? What transformations and translations accompany such mobilisations? In addition, Zukunftsphilologie aims to support critical reviews of historical and philological practice. In revisiting important philological debates, the goal is not to merely evaluate the argumentative worth of these debates, but to reflect on the wider cultural and political context in which these debates emerged and how they have shaped our knowledge of the past. The project Zukunftsphilologie is associated with and located at the Friedrich Schlegel Graduate School for Literary Studies at Freie Universitaet Berlin. Zukunftsphilologie is directed by Angelika Neuwirth and Islam Dayeh (both Freie Universitaet Berlin). CANDIDATES The fellowships are intended primarily for scholars of Arabic, Chinese, Hebrew, Persian, Sanskrit, Syriac, Turkish, and other linguistic and philological traditions from Africa, Asia and Europe, as well as for scholars of intellectual and literary history, of comparative linguistics, philology, religion and the history of science from outside Berlin, who wish to carry out their research projects in the framework of the initiative Zukunftsphilologie in Berlin. Applicants should be at the postdoctoral level and should have obtained their doctorate within the last five years. Fellows are given the opportunity to pursue research projects of their own choice, provided the topic falls within the research agenda of the project. In the overall context of the project Zukunftsphilologie, they will participate in regular working meetings of the project group as well as in lectures, conferences and summer and winter academies, organised by the project and by the Forum Transregionale Studien. PROJECTS Individual research projects should fall within one of the themes of the project Zukunftsphilologie. Projects should have a comparative perspective, whereby the plurality of textual practices, polyphonic textuality, and the trajectories and genealogies of philological traditions in early modernity are examined. For the year 2011/2012, research projects focusing on intellectual debates, polemics, correspondences, and transregional encounters are especially welcome. A revisiting of major philological debates will enable us to explore the significance of philology in the cultural and political transformations beyond the modern/pre-modern divide. Moreover, an examination of philological debates will shed light on marginal philological traditions and undocumented intellectual positions as well as the way in which the canonical positions were consolidated and normalised. FELLOWSHIPS start October 1, 2011, and will end on July 31, 2012. Shorter fellowship terms can be considered. Postdoctoral fellows will receive a monthly stipend of EUR 2.250 plus supplements depending on their personal situation. Organisational support, regarding visa, insurances, housing, etc. will be provided. Successful applicants will be fellows of the project Zukunftsphilologie at the Forum Transregionale Studien and associate members of the Friedrich Schlegel Graduate School for Literary Studies. Through this association they will be integrated into the Department of Philosophy and Humanities at the Freie Universitaet Berlin and will have access to an academic milieu of literary and philological Studies as well as to libraries and other research facilities. APPLICATION PROCEDURE To apply, please send the following documents in English exclusively by e-mail as separate word or PDF files. The letter of recommendation can be sent directly by e-mail. - a curriculum vitae - a project description (no longer than five pages), stating what the scholar will work on in Berlin if granted a fellowship - a sample of scholarly work (maximum 20 pages, article, book chapter, conference contribution) - a letter of recommendation from one academic faculty The application should be submitted in English and should be received by 17 January 2011, addressed to: zukunftsphilologie at trafo-berlin.de INSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK The Forum Transregionale Studien is a new research platform of the Land of Berlin designed to promote research that connects systematic and region-specific questions in a perspective that addresses entanglements and interactions beyond national, cultural or regional frames. The Forum works in tandem with established institutions and networks engaged in transregional studies and is supported by an association of the directors of research institutes and networks mainly based in Berlin. It started its activities in 2010 by supporting three research projects in the fields of law, philology, and urban sociology. The Forum Transregionale Studien is funded by the Senate of Berlin. For more information please see www.forum-transregionale-studien.de http://www.geisteswissenschaften.fu-berlin.de/en/friedrichschlegel/ Forum Transregionale Studien c/o Wissenschaftskolleg zu Berlin Attn: Georges Khalil Wallotstrasse 19, D-14193 Berlin / Germany ****************************************************************** To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: For holidays or short absences send post to: with message: SET H-ASIA NOMAIL Upon return, send post with message SET H-ASIA MAIL H-ASIA WEB HOMEPAGE URL: http://h-net.msu.edu/~asia/ 1 From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Sat Nov 27 16:58:34 2010 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 10 17:58:34 +0100 Subject: Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti Message-ID: <161227090912.23782.4526078565695218324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 26/11/2010 18:49, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Yes, Ifra's book is flawed, yes he is inconsistent and idiosyncratic in his > use of diacritical marks, and yes, subject-specialists will find points to > criticize sharply. And yet, and yet, one can still learn a great deal from > the book. Dear Dominik, it is quite clear from your comment that you think that some of the criticisms of the book under discussion are unfair or outrageous because the book is "path-breaking". All I am trying to say is that a "path-breaking" book (which belongs to the realm of RESEARCH) and a "reference book" (which belong to the realm of TEACHING) do not belong to the same category, and that "reference books" need to receive extra care, in order to avoid what is called in French "nivellement par le bas" (I do not know how to express that in English). Of course, the members of the INDOLOGY mailing list know that "koti" is in fact "ko.ti" (i.e. "crore") (and "koo.ti" in Tamil dictionaries). But why should you expect that every student will know that and will wisely correct what is found on the printed page (when quoting that "path-breaking" book) in order not to be stamped as an ignorant? It is NOT FAIR for the students. I have just read a very interesting book about Chidambaram [from Oxford University press] which was published in the mid-nineties and in which the name "pata~njali" is systematically written (a hundred times) as "pa.ta~njali" (with a retroflex t [i.e. ".t"]) How is a student supposed to know that this is wrong? A few months ago, I read a book concerning the "Dravidian oratory" published by Columbia University press in which dialogues in Tamil were reproduced without any diacritics (and in which there were other problems, as I have pointed out on a private basis to a few colleagues specialists of Tamil who agreed that it was highly problematic; for instance they had never heard of "ullurai aumam", as mentionned on page 105 in that book). Why print items which a student will not be able to reproduce as such without being considered as grossly ignorant? If Ifrah's book was a best-seller (I am happy for him), the publisher can certainly afford to release a corrected version with diacritics. Then it will be both a commercial success and a reference book that can honourably sit on everybody's shelf, including the famous Library of Congress. -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (EFEO/CNRS, Pondicherry) From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Nov 28 03:44:44 2010 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 10 22:44:44 -0500 Subject: new EJVS issue 17-2: Vajracharya on Unicorns Message-ID: <161227090915.23782.5657681437089249159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, we are happy to announce a new issue of the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies: Vol.17 Issue 2, Nov. 29, 2010: Gautama V. Vajracharya Unicorns in Ancient India and Vedic Ritual It is available at: as quick download (compresssed pdf 1 MB) and as slower download (11 MB pdf). Issue 3 (Y. Vassilkov on Siberian rattle-mirrors with early Indian motifs) to follow shortly. Best, MW ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line: 617- 496 2990 From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Sun Nov 28 22:22:24 2010 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 10 11:22:24 +1300 Subject: Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090923.23782.16108863442650434631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 05:58:34PM +0100, Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD wrote: > On 26/11/2010 18:49, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >Yes, Ifra's book is flawed, yes he is inconsistent and idiosyncratic in his > >use of diacritical marks, and yes, subject-specialists will find points to > >criticize sharply. And yet, and yet, one can still learn a great deal from > >the book. > > Dear Dominik, > > it is quite clear from your comment that you think that some of the > criticisms of the book under discussion are unfair or outrageous > because the book is "path-breaking". > > All I am trying to say is that a "path-breaking" book (which belongs > to the realm of RESEARCH) and a "reference book" (which belong to > the realm of TEACHING) do not belong to the same category, and that > "reference books" need to receive extra care, in order to avoid what > is called in French "nivellement par le bas" (I do not know how to > express that in English). [snip] > Why print items which a student will not be able to reproduce as > such without being considered as grossly ignorant? > > If Ifrah's book was a best-seller (I am happy for him), the > publisher can certainly afford to release a corrected version with > diacritics. > > Then it will be both a commercial success and a reference book that > can honourably sit on everybody's shelf, including the famous > Library of Congress. > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (EFEO/CNRS, Pondicherry) Jean-Luc, your comments remind me of another, though somewhat less recent, `best-seller'. A good number of years ago, when I was slowly crawling through the Oresteia, a colleague of my father's kindly gave me a number of volumes -- for my amusement than anything else. Amongst them was John Lempriere's Bibliotheca Classica / Classical Dictionary. This first left the press in the late 1780s but mine is the 20th edn of 1844 -- and wasn't to be the last! Anyway, in the preface, Lempriere is characteristically modest about the value of his work: ``In the following pages it has been the wish of the Author to give the most accurate and satisfactory account of all the proper names which occur in reading the Classics, and by a judicious collection of anecdotes and historical facts to draw a picture of ancient times not less instructive than entertaining. Such a work, it is hoped, will not be deemed an useless acquisition in the hands of the public; and while the student is initiated in the knowledge of history and mythology, and familiarized with the ancient situation and extent of kingdoms and cities that no longer exist, the man of letters may, perhaps, find it not a contemptible companion, from which he may receive information, and be made, a second time, acquainted with many important particulars which time, or more laborious occupations, may have erased from his memory.'' (v.) After having seen the scan of Ifrah and the various comments following I was curious to revisit Lempriere, see attached. Readers will draw their own conclusions but a quick comparison makes me wonder how much progress has been made during the the past 200 years. Kind regards, Richard -- Richard MAHONEY - Indica et Buddhica Littledene, Bay Road, OXFORD 7430, NZ PO Box 25, OXFORD 7443 +64 3 312 1699 / +64 275 829 986 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org http://indica-et-buddhica.org http://camera-antipodea.indica-et-buddhica.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img011-cc.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 623995 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Nov 30 10:52:19 2010 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 10 04:52:19 -0600 Subject: prayojanaabhidheya In-Reply-To: <2E2F0DF8-535D-4C38-BD1E-C7D0DD1571BF@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <161227090929.23782.15115067509322199631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I'd be grateful for recommendations you may have for articles or book chapters treating prayojana-abhidheya-sambandha whether in Bauddha, Jaina, or Brahmanical sources. with thanks in advance, Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Nov 30 19:49:08 2010 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 10 11:49:08 -0800 Subject: Fwd: [INDOLOGY] Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti Message-ID: <161227090934.23782.11146144805074891854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In this general connection, please see Stephen Chrisomalis' new "Numerical Notation: A Comparative History" (Cambridge, 2010), which (though not a collarorative effort as suggested) is intended to supersede Ifrah. My impression is that it will. The chapter on "South Asian Systems", at least, is very well done (although it does not address the issue of words for large numbers which started this thread, if memory serves), and the whole book is a very impressive performance. Rich Salomon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dominic Goodall" To: Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 4:19 AM Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti This must be intended for everyone, rather than just for me: Begin forwarded message: > From: > Date: 26 November 2010 4:34:36 PM GMT+05:30 > To: "Dominic Goodall" > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: [INDOLOGY] > the koti > > > Ifrah's book suffers from the flaws of many large > synthetic works -- the author cannot be (and cannot > be expected to be!) -- a specialist in all the domains > treated. > > One might of course object: well then why not organize > a collaborative work by specialists? In response, I > offer the lopsided and barely coherent collection > of articles one finds in the Oxford Handbook of the > History of Mathematics (though many of the > articles, taken individually are useful and interesting). Multi-authored > works seldom attain > to the sort of synthesis that a work by a > single author may aspire to, even if flawed. > > It's certainly good to be aware of the shortcomings as > detailed in Dauben's review, and thanks to Dominic > for circulating it. > > But I don't think the case has been made yet to > abandon Ifrah's work like the plague. It's a work of > first reference, not of last recourse. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From kengo.harimoto at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Tue Nov 30 13:02:16 2010 From: kengo.harimoto at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Kengo Harimoto) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 10 14:02:16 +0100 Subject: prayojanaabhidheya In-Reply-To: <20101130045219.AFF18563@mstore02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227090932.23782.15130785123747272567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As for Buddhist: @article{funayama:prayojana, author = {Toru Funayama}, title = {{A}rca\d{t}a, \'{S}\=antarak\d{s}ita, {J}inendrabuddhi, and {K}amala\'s\={\i}la on the Aim of a Treatise (\emph{prayojana})}, journal = wzks, volume = "39", pages = "181--201", year = 1995, } I am not aware of studies on the Brahmanical side, but I find Kum?rila's ?lokav?rttika, Pratij??s?tra 11?25, the beginnings of Ny?yabh??ya/Ny?yav?rttika, to be relatively early treatment of the issue. Interesting is the beginning of the Vaiy?kara?amah?bh??ya where those terms, though pad?rtha instead of abhidheya, are used but in a different context. -- kengo harimoto On Nov 30, 2010, at 11:52 , mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I'd be grateful for recommendations you may have > for articles or book chapters treating > prayojana-abhidheya-sambandha > whether in Bauddha, Jaina, or Brahmanical sources. > > with thanks in advance, > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Tue Nov 30 22:38:55 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 10 23:38:55 +0100 Subject: Fwd: [INDOLOGY] Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti In-Reply-To: <08BDDC653375443C96A4CF573CE81396@D3QMPYK1> Message-ID: <161227090936.23782.657793129799147529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you, Richard, I didn't know this book and I'll check it out asap. Best, Dominik On 30 November 2010 20:49, Richard Salomon wrote: > In this general connection, please see Stephen Chrisomalis' new "Numerical > Notation: A Comparative History" (Cambridge, 2010), which (though not a > collarorative effort as suggested) is intended to supersede Ifrah. My > impression is that it will. The chapter on "South Asian Systems", at least, > is very well done (although it does not address the issue of words for large > numbers which started this thread, if memory serves), and the whole book is > a very impressive performance. > > Rich Salomon > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dominic Goodall" < > dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM> > To: > Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 4:19 AM > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: > [INDOLOGY] the koti > > > > This must be intended for everyone, rather than just for me: > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: >> Date: 26 November 2010 4:34:36 PM GMT+05:30 >> To: "Dominic Goodall" >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: [INDOLOGY] >> the koti >> >> >> Ifrah's book suffers from the flaws of many large >> synthetic works -- the author cannot be (and cannot >> be expected to be!) -- a specialist in all the domains >> treated. >> >> One might of course object: well then why not organize >> a collaborative work by specialists? In response, I >> offer the lopsided and barely coherent collection >> of articles one finds in the Oxford Handbook of the >> History of Mathematics (though many of the >> articles, taken individually are useful and interesting). Multi-authored >> works seldom attain >> to the sort of synthesis that a work by a >> single author may aspire to, even if flawed. >> >> It's certainly good to be aware of the shortcomings as >> detailed in Dauben's review, and thanks to Dominic >> for circulating it. >> >> But I don't think the case has been made yet to >> abandon Ifrah's work like the plague. It's a work of >> first reference, not of last recourse. >> >> Matthew T. Kapstein >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies >> The University of Chicago Divinity School >> Directeur d'?tudes >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris >> > From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Tue Nov 30 23:51:30 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 10 00:51:30 +0100 Subject: Fwd: [INDOLOGY] Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: [INDOLOGY] the koti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227090939.23782.1866626657250176200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Chrisomalis says, Although I disagree with his conclusions in many places, I thank Georges > Ifrah, > whose gargantuan and important *Histoire universelle des chiffres* (1998) > inspired me > to produce this volume. > A browse through the book shows that Chrisomalis cites Ifrah pervasively as a standard source, only criticising him explicitly on a few occasions. I very much like Chrisomalis' opening criticism aimed at those who praise our current internationalized counting system as being in some sense a pinnacle of achievement. Chrisomalis argues that it is possible to imagine other counting systems that would serve us just as well, if not better. > There is no ideal numerical notation system; rather, each system is shaped > by > a set of goals that its users and inventors seek to attain, and that they > can achieve > only by compromising on other factors. There may be patterns of change > among > systems, but the burden of proof lies with those who wish to maintain that > nu- > merical notation evolves in a unilinear sequence. (p.19) > I have made more or less the same point myself in the past. I find it quite odd that Chrisomalis doesn't mention Pingree anywhere in his book or bibliography. Perhaps it's true that David didn't write much about numerical notation as such, but his studies on cultural contacts and the chronology of communication amongst ancient and medieval mathematicians are fundamental, including his work on Arab-Indian contacts, and I would have expected to see at least an *awareness* of his oevre. Pingree's CESS and *Astral Literature* are fundamental reference works, even for well-known figures like Brahmagupta or ?ryabha?a, and especially for getting the chronology right. Chrisomalis refers to Sphujidhvaja's *Yavanajataka* on p.195, but via Yano and without reference to Pingree's critical edition and study of the work. Kim Plofker is cited, though not her new book (which only came out a year before Chrisomalis'). By contrast, Kaye's 1907 and 1919 terribly biassed articles are taken seriously. More seriously, there is no mention anywhere of the Bakhshali manuscript, of Hayashi's 1995 edition of it, and his important argument that it provides us the first written zero in India (Chrisomalis still refers to the Gwalior inscription, p.213). Chrisomalis doesn't mention Brahmagupta, the first South Asian mathematician actually to discuss zero in theoretical terms. And he follows Datta and Singh (1935) in placing Panini in the seventh century BC (p.205). In fact, he cites a lot of secondary sources from before the war, and few from the last two decades. Finally, [Jean-Luc] I'm sorry to have to say that Chrisomalis is no better at getting his diacritical marks right than Ifrah. They are a mixture of erratic, wrong, and obsolete. So, "ka?apay?di" is "katapayadi" which undermines the very point of ?ryabha?a's ("?ryabhata"'s) achievement. He says, The name katapay?di [sic] itself is taken from the four syllables (ka, ta [sic], pa, ya) that are assigned the value 1 in this system. (p.209) But in his chart of the ka?apay?di scheme on the next page, the transliteration is correct. At the same time Chrisomalis and his editors have put a huge amount of effort into getting the Asian scripts right. I haven't found a mistake yet in the N?gar?, though I haven't looked systematically or comprehensively. When he can make a good effort for the Asian scripts, it's hard to understand the lack of care over the material in Latin script, that is in principle so much easier to handle. Chrisomalis' difficulties with transliteration are somewhat ironic in a book about notation. There's no question that this book is a major contribution (as is the money need to buy it), but I think it's South Asia chapter has to be read together with Ifrah, not instead of. And the poor spelling (which is what wrong diacritics are), coupled with the absence of reference to important, relevant work of the last 15 years, especially by Hayashi, means that unfortunately it still cannot, in my view, be considered a definitive work. Like Ifrah, it is extremely interesting, and worth reading (if your interests lie in this direction). Best, Dominik On 30 November 2010 23:38, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Thank you, Richard, I didn't know this book and I'll check it out asap. > > Best, > Dominik > > > > > On 30 November 2010 20:49, Richard Salomon wrote: > >> In this general connection, please see Stephen Chrisomalis' new >> "Numerical Notation: A Comparative History" (Cambridge, 2010), which >> (though not a collarorative effort as suggested) is intended to supersede >> Ifrah. My impression is that it will. The chapter on "South Asian Systems", >> at least, is very well done (although it does not address the issue of words >> for large numbers which started this thread, if memory serves), and the >> whole book is a very impressive performance. >> >> Rich Salomon >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dominic Goodall" < >> dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM> >> To: >> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 4:19 AM >> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [INDOLOGY] Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: >> [INDOLOGY] the koti >> >> >> >> This must be intended for everyone, rather than just for me: >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: >>> Date: 26 November 2010 4:34:36 PM GMT+05:30 >>> To: "Dominic Goodall" >>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Are diacritics NOW irrelevant ? (Re: [INDOLOGY] >>> the koti >>> >>> >>> Ifrah's book suffers from the flaws of many large >>> synthetic works -- the author cannot be (and cannot >>> be expected to be!) -- a specialist in all the domains >>> treated. >>> >>> One might of course object: well then why not organize >>> a collaborative work by specialists? In response, I >>> offer the lopsided and barely coherent collection >>> of articles one finds in the Oxford Handbook of the >>> History of Mathematics (though many of the >>> articles, taken individually are useful and interesting). Multi-authored >>> works seldom attain >>> to the sort of synthesis that a work by a >>> single author may aspire to, even if flawed. >>> >>> It's certainly good to be aware of the shortcomings as >>> detailed in Dauben's review, and thanks to Dominic >>> for circulating it. >>> >>> But I don't think the case has been made yet to >>> abandon Ifrah's work like the plague. It's a work of >>> first reference, not of last recourse. >>> >>> Matthew T. Kapstein >>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies >>> The University of Chicago Divinity School >>> Directeur d'?tudes >>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris >>> >> > From jmdelire at ULB.AC.BE Fri Nov 19 16:18:24 2010 From: jmdelire at ULB.AC.BE (by way of Jean-Michel Delire (jmdelire@ulb.ac.be)) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 10 17:18:24 +0100 Subject: the koti Message-ID: <161227090845.23782.3632457294176555753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, The Aryabhatiya (499 AD) actually defines koti as the 7th power of ten in chapter II (Ganita) 2, which enumerates the successive powers of ten, from one (= ten to the power of zero) : eka.m da'sa ca 'sata.m ca sahasramayutaniyute tathaa prayutam / ko.tyarbuda.m ca v.rnda.m sthaanaat sthaana.m da'sagu.na.m syaat // J.M.Delire, Lecturer on "Science and civilization in India - Sanskrit texts", IHEB (University of Brussels) >Dear Colleagues, > >I have a question that Randy Kloetzli has asked me to communicate to INDOLOGY: "Is there some scholarship regarding the number known as the koti? Its value is 10 to the 7th power or 1 followed by 7 zeroes. Monier-Williams says only that it is the largest of the old order of numbers." > >If a conversation emerges here, I will communicate it to Randy. Or you could write him offline at catrandu at comcast.net. > >Thanks, Alf > >Alf Hiltebeitel >Professor of Religion, History and Human Sciences >Department of Religion >2106 G Street, NW >George Washington University >Washington DC 20052 > > no attachments have been sent