From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Feb 1 12:31:57 2010 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 10 07:31:57 -0500 Subject: Samskarakaustubha of Anantadeva Message-ID: <161227088351.23782.7591087139645308321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Indologists, Does anyone have a photocopy of Anantadeva's Samskarakaustubha and can make a copy for me? This work was published in Pothi form in Mumbai in 1861. Please contact me off-list (mmdesh at umich.edu). Thanks. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Peter Wyzlic [pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE] Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 9:09 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Sanskrit pop singer in China >> http://preview.tinyurl.com/skt-popsinger. Well, concerning the claim China has the first Sanskrit popsinger, America came first, indeed. There exists a music group called "Shanti Shanti" who is claimed to be the "first" Sanskrit rock band. See the homepage: Enjoy Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 53113 Bonn From zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE Mon Feb 1 13:36:18 2010 From: zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 10 14:36:18 +0100 Subject: sa.wikipedia.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088353.23782.7612759490877896472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 31.01.2010, om 09:26 heeft James Hartzell het volgende geschreven: > Not sure whether colleagues are conversant with this Sanskrit > Wikipedia link > (sa.wikipedia.org), and what the consensus opinion is; from a very > brief > look it appears only short articles for some entries, some partly in > Hindi. > It might be a good ven? for centralizing links for Sanskrit digital > documents, audio recordings, videos, university websites, etc. > > It was started last week by a team of Samskrita Bharati volunteers in > Bangalore > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academy/India/2010/Bangalore1 Not quite: the _Academy_ had its first meeting a week ago. The Sanskrit Wikipedia is much older (I know, because I've written in it and corrected a bit of the sometimes embarrassingly poor Sanskrit too). I find the idea of a Sanskrit Wikipedia very sympathetic, but till now the quality both of language and of content leaves a thing or two to be desired. The fact that much of the information provided on the Wikipedia pages about the Sanskrit Wikipedia is not in Sanskrit, but in Hindi (why?...), is food for thought. (So let's help and do something about it! we who call ourselves Sanskritists!) > additionally, we might think of starting some pages on > scholarpedia.org? Nothing against that, but -- we also have our very own faq.indology.info Wiki, started by Dominik some time back. He seems to be the only person who has written a real article in it till now (I must hang my head in shame and confess I didn't get much further yet than extending the frame for http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Languages_and_Writings - but I am working on something to upload. Really). Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Department f?r Asienstudien - Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Universit?t M?nchen Deutschland Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Mon Feb 1 14:09:55 2010 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 10 16:09:55 +0200 Subject: sa.wikipedia.org In-Reply-To: <0A6210CB-452B-4F73-A126-5C1B4F9B7D52@uni-muenchen.de> Message-ID: <161227088356.23782.5090705232002955589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks Robert for the update and corrections; I joined their discussion group today and raised the question of converting the Hindi into Sanskrit. Following your indication, I checked the faq.indology.info Wiki, and found as you said just the article by Dominik on Ayurveda, under Indigenous Sciences, and variously extended frames. Perhaps colleagues might be interested in uploading links to their already published articles into the relevant categories? This might give a start to making it a valuable cross-subject-domain resource. James Hartzell U. Trento On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos < zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de> wrote: > Op 31.01.2010, om 09:26 heeft James Hartzell het volgende geschreven: > > Not sure whether colleagues are conversant with this Sanskrit Wikipedia >> link >> (sa.wikipedia.org), and what the consensus opinion is; from a very brief >> look it appears only short articles for some entries, some partly in >> Hindi. >> It might be a good ven? for centralizing links for Sanskrit digital >> >> documents, audio recordings, videos, university websites, etc. >> >> It was started last week by a team of Samskrita Bharati volunteers in >> Bangalore >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academy/India/2010/Bangalore1 >> > > Not quite: the _Academy_ had its first meeting a week ago. The Sanskrit > Wikipedia is much older (I know, because I've written in it and corrected a > bit of the sometimes embarrassingly poor Sanskrit too). I find the idea of a > Sanskrit Wikipedia very sympathetic, but till now the quality both of > language and of content leaves a thing or two to be desired. The fact that > much of the information provided on the Wikipedia pages about the Sanskrit > Wikipedia is not in Sanskrit, but in Hindi (why?...), is food for thought. > (So let's help and do something about it! we who call ourselves > Sanskritists!) > > > additionally, we might think of starting some pages on scholarpedia.org? >> > > Nothing against that, but -- we also have our very own faq.indology.infoWiki, started by Dominik some time back. He seems to be the only person who > has written a real article in it till now (I must hang my head in shame and > confess I didn't get much further yet than extending the frame for > http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Languages_and_Writings - but I am > working on something to upload. Really). > > > Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Department f?r Asienstudien - Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie > Universit?t M?nchen > Deutschland > Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 > Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 > From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Tue Feb 2 15:53:37 2010 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 10 07:53:37 -0800 Subject: D=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9c=E8s?= de Madeleine Biardeau In-Reply-To: <2684_1265121228_1265121228_c1b6a95e1002020633q4337e50va51f19fc5a2babb2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227088360.23782.5340340634390789474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sad to get the news. We have lost a sincere and versatile scholar, gifted with the ability to come up with refreshing readings of textual evidence and a pleasant personality. ashok aklujkar From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Feb 3 00:44:14 2010 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 10 16:44:14 -0800 Subject: New book announcement Message-ID: <161227088363.23782.3327145344367787717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am pleased to announce the publication of the following new book as volume 6 of the "Gandharan Buddhist Texts" series: Timothy Lenz, Gandharan Avadanas (Seattle: University of Washington Press, 2010). -Richard Salomon From e.ciurtin at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 2 14:33:39 2010 From: e.ciurtin at GMAIL.COM (Eugen Ciurtin) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 10 20:03:39 +0530 Subject: D=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9c=E8s?= de Madeleine Biardeau In-Reply-To: <670AAA87C4D349C390B804C6F7FC2076@iei> Message-ID: <161227088358.23782.13459299077516231215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Chantal Duhuy Date: 1 f?vr. 2010 22:38 Subject: D?c?s de Madeleine Biardeau To: DUHUY Chantal Madame, Monsieur, L'Institut d'?tudes indiennes a la tristesse de vous annoncer le d?c?s de Madame Madeleine BIARDEAU, survenu paisiblement ce matin, lundi 2 f?vrier 2010, ? la maison de retraite "Le Sacr? Coeur" de Cherveux. L'incin?ration est pr?vue jeudi prochain ? Niort. Bien cordialement, Chantal et Isabelle ** From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Feb 3 15:37:56 2010 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 09:37:56 -0600 Subject: Abhidharmakosha in e-format In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088376.23782.10960275906741693425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Karika but not the Bhasya is available in the Digital Sanskrit Buddhist Canon http://www.uwest.edu/sanskritcanon/dp/ Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From jkirk at SPRO.NET Wed Feb 3 17:32:08 2010 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 10:32:08 -0700 Subject: sa.wikipedia.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088384.23782.4593606615276221447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please.....what are "sockpuppet" violations? JK ___________________ Even more interesting, if you get a history list of people who edited those pages ranked by number of edits, almost all the top ones are the VF people, and almost all of them have been banned from using Wikipedia, mostly for "sockpuppet" violations. Maybe we should give up the idea of our own FAQ, and just use Wikipedia? Has anyone else got ideas on why the INDOLOGY FAQ hasn't been used? Is it too fussy to get a password, perhaps? Best, Dominik On Mon, 1 Feb 2010, Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos wrote: > Nothing against that, but -- we also have our very own > faq.indology.info Wiki, started by Dominik some time back. He seems to > be the only person who has written a real article in it till now (I > must hang my head in shame and confess I didn't get much further yet > than extending the frame for http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Languages_and_Writings > - but I am working on something to upload. Really). > > > Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Department f?r Asienstudien - Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie > Universit?t M?nchen Deutschland Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 Fax > (+49-89-) 2180-5827 > -- After nearly 25 years, I'm phasing out this UCL email account. Please switch over to using the email address wujastyk at gmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Feb 3 18:31:18 2010 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 13:31:18 -0500 Subject: Samskarakaustubha of Anantadeva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088386.23782.15997643685492344452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Dominik, for this information. I downloaded the .tif files for this book from the DLI web-page. They also have the other older edition of 1861. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Dominik Wujastyk [ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK] Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 10:16 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Samskarakaustubha of Anantadeva Hi, Madhav. The Digital Library of India has this entry: Sanskar Kaustubh Marathi Bhashantarasahit., 99999990103033. . 1980. marathi. . 167 pgs. Likely to be of interest? Best, Dominik On Mon, 1 Feb 2010, Deshpande, Madhav wrote: > Hello Indologists, > > Does anyone have a photocopy of Anantadeva's Samskarakaustubha and can make a copy for me? This work was published in Pothi form in Mumbai in 1861. Please contact me off-list (mmdesh at umich.edu). Thanks. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics > Department of Asian Languages and Cultures > 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 > The University of Michigan > Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA > ________________________________________ > From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Peter Wyzlic [pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE] > Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 9:09 AM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Sanskrit pop singer in China > > >> http://preview.tinyurl.com/skt-popsinger. > > > Well, concerning the claim China has the first Sanskrit popsinger, America came first, indeed. There exists a music group called "Shanti Shanti" who is claimed to be the "first" Sanskrit rock band. See the homepage: > > Enjoy > Peter Wyzlic > -- > Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften > Abteilung f?r Indologie > Universit?t Bonn > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > 53113 Bonn > -- After nearly 25 years, I'm phasing out this UCL email account. Please switch over to using the email address wujastyk at gmail.com From vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU Wed Feb 3 11:20:37 2010 From: vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU (Viktoria Lyssenko) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 14:20:37 +0300 Subject: Abhidharmakosha in e-format Message-ID: <161227088366.23782.9318950280034405579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -- Dear members ! Where could I find a Sanskrit text of Abhidharmakoshabhashya of Vasubandhu in e-form? Does it exist at all? It may be of great help for myself and my students. Thank you in advance. Victoria Lysenko Institute of Philosophy Russian Academy of Science ????? ????? ??? http://mail.yandex.ru/nospam/sign From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 3 15:16:17 2010 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 15:16:17 +0000 Subject: Samskarakaustubha of Anantadeva In-Reply-To: <3AF9B038A6B07641B36C799ED4EBB0D704D1FAF67A@ITCS-ECLS-1-VS3.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227088368.23782.164979607291786994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Madhav. The Digital Library of India has this entry: Sanskar Kaustubh Marathi Bhashantarasahit., 99999990103033. . 1980. marathi. . 167 pgs. Likely to be of interest? Best, Dominik On Mon, 1 Feb 2010, Deshpande, Madhav wrote: > Hello Indologists, > > Does anyone have a photocopy of Anantadeva's Samskarakaustubha and can make a copy for me? This work was published in Pothi form in Mumbai in 1861. Please contact me off-list (mmdesh at umich.edu). Thanks. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics > Department of Asian Languages and Cultures > 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 > The University of Michigan > Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA > ________________________________________ > From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Peter Wyzlic [pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE] > Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 9:09 AM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Sanskrit pop singer in China > > >> http://preview.tinyurl.com/skt-popsinger. > > > Well, concerning the claim China has the first Sanskrit popsinger, America came first, indeed. There exists a music group called "Shanti Shanti" who is claimed to be the "first" Sanskrit rock band. See the homepage: > > Enjoy > Peter Wyzlic > -- > Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften > Abteilung f?r Indologie > Universit?t Bonn > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > 53113 Bonn > -- After nearly 25 years, I'm phasing out this UCL email account. Please switch over to using the email address wujastyk at gmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 3 15:23:11 2010 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 15:23:11 +0000 Subject: sa.wikipedia.org In-Reply-To: <0A6210CB-452B-4F73-A126-5C1B4F9B7D52@uni-muenchen.de> Message-ID: <161227088370.23782.6666759595016247101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for reminding people of our own INDOLOGY FAQ. There's been almost zero uptake, and I'm curious about why. Obviously Wikipedia is quite a magnet, and perhaps the issues of quality control are not quite as dire as some of us thought. Certainly the founders of Wikipedia are bullish about quality control. As a matter of interest, the Wikipedia pages on the California Hindu Textbook case were a site of much contention a couple of years ago. If you made a correction that was even faintly against the Vedic Foundation position, it got erased or re-written almost immediately. However, things have changed. I made a number of edits last October, and they all still stand. In fact nobody has touched the pages after me. Even more interesting, if you get a history list of people who edited those pages ranked by number of edits, almost all the top ones are the VF people, and almost all of them have been banned from using Wikipedia, mostly for "sockpuppet" violations. Maybe we should give up the idea of our own FAQ, and just use Wikipedia? Has anyone else got ideas on why the INDOLOGY FAQ hasn't been used? Is it too fussy to get a password, perhaps? Best, Dominik On Mon, 1 Feb 2010, Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos wrote: > Nothing against that, but -- we also have our very own > faq.indology.info Wiki, started by Dominik some time back. He seems to > be the only person who has written a real article in it till now (I > must hang my head in shame and confess I didn't get much further yet > than extending the frame for http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Languages_and_Writings > - but I am working on something to upload. Really). > > > Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Department f?r Asienstudien - Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie > Universit?t M?nchen > Deutschland > Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 > Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 > -- After nearly 25 years, I'm phasing out this UCL email account. Please switch over to using the email address wujastyk at gmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 3 15:26:51 2010 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 15:26:51 +0000 Subject: Abhidharmakosha in e-format In-Reply-To: <252771265196037@webmail126.yandex.ru> Message-ID: <161227088373.23782.11519565699135635593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Viktoria. Have you seen these volumes: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=abhidharmakosa All except v.3, which is a bit annoying. But still ... Best, Dominik On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, Viktoria Lyssenko wrote: > -- Dear members ! > Where could I find a Sanskrit text of Abhidharmakoshabhashya of Vasubandhu in e-form? Does it exist at all? > It may be of great help for myself and my students. > Thank you in advance. > > Victoria Lysenko > Institute of Philosophy > Russian Academy of Science > ????? ????? ??? http://mail.yandex.ru/nospam/sign > -- After nearly 25 years, I'm phasing out this UCL email account. Please switch over to using the email address wujastyk at gmail.com From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Feb 4 00:10:27 2010 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 19:10:27 -0500 Subject: Abhidharmakosha in e-format Message-ID: <161227088392.23782.16616815302776140812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The full first chapter only -- Sanskrit and the two Chinese versions -- is at http://www.mldc.cn/sanskritweb/resour/etext/abhk1.html (set your browser to utf-8 unicode). The version on the Thesaurus Literaturae Buddhicae site is only up to karika 10 of the first chapter as far as I can tell. There is no online e-version of the whole text with bhasya. Dan Lusthaus From vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU Wed Feb 3 16:29:50 2010 From: vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU (Viktoria Lyssenko) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 19:29:50 +0300 Subject: Abhidharmakosha in e-format In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088378.23782.1670144617964904126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, It looks so good, but how to download the stuff, the links failed. Victoria 03.02.10, 15:26, "Dominik Wujastyk" : > Hello, Viktoria. Have you seen these volumes: > > http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=abhidharmakosa > > All except v.3, which is a bit annoying. But still ... > > Best, > Dominik > > On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, Viktoria Lyssenko wrote: > > > -- Dear members ! > > Where could I find a Sanskrit text of Abhidharmakoshabhashya of Vasubandhu in e-form? Does it exist at all? > > It may be of great help for myself and my students. > > Thank you in advance. > > > > Victoria Lysenko > > Institute of Philosophy > > Russian Academy of Science > > ????? ????? ??? http://mail.yandex.ru/nospam/sign > > > > -- > After nearly 25 years, I'm phasing out this UCL email account. > Please switch over to using the email address wujastyk at gmail.com > > -- ??????.?????. ?????? ????. ????? - ???. http://mail.yandex.ru/nospam/sign From emstern at VERIZON.NET Thu Feb 4 00:33:11 2010 From: emstern at VERIZON.NET (Elliot M. Stern) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 19:33:11 -0500 Subject: D=?iso-8859-15?Q?=E9c=E8s?= de Madeleine Biardeau In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088394.23782.14366164067552175836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I note with sadness the decease of Madeleine Biardeau. I met her only once, in 1978 in Pune. She generously lent me the typescript of her French translation of vidhiviveka? and ny?yaka?ika, which she had prepared while reading those texts with V.A. Ramaswami Sastri. This translation informed my understanding of interpretation of the edition published in the Pandit (supplemented by readings from the ms. of ny?yaka?ik? currently available at Sarasvati Bhavan, Varanasi), and both directly and indirectly influenced the draft edition of these texts that I completed in 1984. I returned the French translation to Mme. Biardeau by post around 1984 or 1985 (I do not have a copy). Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America telephone: 215-747-6204 mobile: 267-240-8418 emstern at verizon.net On 02 Feb 2010, at 9:33 AM, Eugen Ciurtin wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Chantal Duhuy > Date: 1 f?vr. 2010 22:38 > Subject: D?c?s de Madeleine Biardeau > To: DUHUY Chantal > > Madame, Monsieur, > > L'Institut d'?tudes indiennes a la tristesse de vous annoncer le d?c?s > de Madame Madeleine BIARDEAU, survenu paisiblement ce matin, lundi 2 f?vrier > 2010, ? la maison de retraite "Le Sacr? Coeur" de Cherveux. L'incin?ration > est pr?vue jeudi prochain ? Niort. > > Bien cordialement, > Chantal et Isabelle > ** From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Feb 4 00:34:00 2010 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 19:34:00 -0500 Subject: Abhidharmakosha in e-format In-Reply-To: <005901caa52e$750fd150$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <161227088396.23782.6081498683832271724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Actually, it all appears to be there: http://www.mldc.cn/sanskritweb/etext.htm Paul Hackett Columbia University Quoting Dan Lusthaus : > The full first chapter only -- Sanskrit and the two Chinese versions -- is at > http://www.mldc.cn/sanskritweb/resour/etext/abhk1.html > (set your browser to utf-8 unicode). > > The version on the Thesaurus Literaturae Buddhicae site is only up to > karika 10 of the first chapter as far as I can tell. > > There is no online e-version of the whole text with bhasya. > > Dan Lusthaus From vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU Wed Feb 3 16:34:02 2010 From: vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU (Viktoria Lyssenko) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 19:34:02 +0300 Subject: Abhidharmakosha in e-format In-Reply-To: <20100203093756.CJE17553@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088381.23782.15024501569110175413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you, Matthew, but I need Bhashya as well! Yours Victoria 03.02.10, 09:37, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU: > The Karika but not the Bhasya is > available in the Digital Sanskrit Buddhist Canon > http://www.uwest.edu/sanskritcanon/dp/ > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > -- ????? ????? ??? http://mail.yandex.ru/nospam/sign From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Feb 4 00:41:59 2010 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 19:41:59 -0500 Subject: Abhidharmakosha in e-format Message-ID: <161227088398.23782.657514712694121635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I need to correct my previous post --- the complete Kosa with bhasya is available, from the same site I mentioned. There is no index page that I can find, so each chapter has to be accessed separately. Also it gives a line-for-line interlinear with the two Chinese translations (Paramartha and Xuanzang), so while good for intertextual work, distracting if one just wishes to peruse the Sanskrit alone. Go to http://www.mldc.cn/sanskritweb/resour/etext/abhk1.html To get the next chapter, change the .../abhk1.html in the address bar to .../abhk2.html. Then replace the 2 with 3 for the third chapter, and so on, up to chapter 9. This is an example of the work being done at Beijing University. The early chapters were edited/entered by Fan Jingjing, and from the 3rd chapter on by Zhang Xueshan. One tip: Since the webpages were composed in China, browsers default to a simplified Chinese setting, which scrambles the Sanskrit. Use your browser setting to set each page to utf-8 unicode. If you are planning to download these pages to your own computer, if you change the encoding in your browser to utf-8 BEFORE you download each page they should open properly once downloaded without having to tamper with encoding settings again. Dan Lusthaus From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Feb 4 00:44:02 2010 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 19:44:02 -0500 Subject: Abhidharmakosha in e-format Message-ID: <161227088401.23782.15795938513278967262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Actually, it all appears to be there: > > http://www.mldc.cn/sanskritweb/etext.htm > > Paul Hackett Thanks, Paul. You found the index page. Again, even that has to be changed to utf-8 for the Chinese to appear properly. cheers, Dan From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Feb 4 00:53:33 2010 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 19:53:33 -0500 Subject: Abhidharmakosha in e-format In-Reply-To: <006501caa533$25fe2c10$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <161227088403.23782.4833239225849207859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> http://www.mldc.cn/sanskritweb/etext.htm >> > even that has to be > changed to utf-8 for the Chinese to appear properly. That's true Dan, if you want to cut-and-paste from the webpage, but if you simply download the html "source" files for each chapter from the index page, you can get the data with having to modify your browser settings. If you open the resulting file(s) in a plain text editor (one that can read UTF-8, of course), you can see that the individual lines are consistently tagged. It should be a simple matter to write a short macro or Perl program to extract just the Sanskrit, if desired. Best, Paul From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Wed Feb 3 22:55:11 2010 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 10 23:55:11 +0100 Subject: Abhidharmakosha in e-format In-Reply-To: <20100203093756.CJE17553@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088389.23782.1713184478188675053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 03.02.2010 um 16:37 schrieb mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU: > The Karika but not the Bhasya is > available in the Digital Sanskrit Buddhist Canon > http://www.uwest.edu/sanskritcanon/dp/ Compare also Jens Braarvig's four language presentation in "Thesaurus Literaturae Buddhicae", Sanskrit, Chinese, Tibetan, English, URL: One can go through the Bh??ya sentence by sentence (the "full text" link does not provide the complete text, so far I can see). Just for the record: a plain text version of the Tibetan translation of the Bh??ya (taken from the Derge Tanjur) is available from ACIP, too: 1: 2: All the best Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 53113 Bonn From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Feb 4 05:38:54 2010 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 10 00:38:54 -0500 Subject: Abhidharmakosha in e-format Message-ID: <161227088406.23782.7814146049066947079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > That's true Dan, if you want to cut-and-paste from the webpage, but if > you simply download the html "source" files for each chapter from the > index page, you can get the data with having to modify your browser > settings. yes, Paul, but if you save the html page after you've set your browser to read that page as utf-8 encoded, it should save that setting in the file, so that when you subsequently open the html file on your harddrive with your browser you won't have to fuss with the encoding settings any further; it will automatically open in properly readable format. >It should be a simple matter to write a short macro or Perl program to >extract just the Sanskrit, if desired. If anyone feels adventurous, and is willing to share the results, please let the rest of us know! best, Dan From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Feb 4 06:58:51 2010 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 10 01:58:51 -0500 Subject: Abhidharmakoshabhashya in e-format Message-ID: <161227088412.23782.2899686161381945009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Victoria, utf-8 is the standard unicode encoding designed to handle all languages and scripts. The Beijing webpages (and all the others mentioned) are already using utf-8 to encode the romanized Sanskrit (and Chinese). When a webpage is properly set up, it embeds hidden instructions to tell the browser which language-set to use. The Beijing webpages lack that setting, so one has to do it manually oneself when accessing the webpage. Depending on which browser you use, you can alter the encoding that the browser uses to read/decode a webpage. If, for instance, you are using Firefox as your browser, then under the "View" menu, select "character encoding" which will display a list of language types and character sets. Simply choose "UNICODE (utf-8)" and the page will reload with the Sanskrit and Chinese readable. The procedure varies slightly with different browsers, but that's the basic idea. Incidentally, there is a complete English translation of the AKB by Leo Pruden, unfortunately taken from Vallee Poussin's French version rather than the original Sanskrit or Chinese texts (and Pruden mistranslated the French at times). http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=13420&MATCH=2 Still usable, but a better, more critical translation would be nice. best, Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Viktoria Lyssenko" To: Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:26 AM Subject: Abhidharmakoshabhashya in e-format > Thanks to all of you who replied to my reguest. Now I have a reach choise > of formats. Unfortunately, I did not find a famous utf-8 to download. And > the last remark - it is a pity that there is no full English translation > of AKB (we have it in Russian, just not fully published by Rudoi and > Ostrovskaya). > Yours Victoria > ??????.?????. ?????? ????. ????? - ???. http://mail.yandex.ru/nospam/sign > From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Feb 4 11:55:23 2010 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 10 06:55:23 -0500 Subject: Abhidharmakosha in e-format In-Reply-To: <002c01caa55c$572c0f40$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <161227088415.23782.8769566942478044345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:38 AM -0500 2/4/10, Dan Lusthaus wrote: >>It should be a simple matter to write a short macro or Perl program >>to extract just the Sanskrit, if desired. > >If anyone feels adventurous, and is willing to share the results, >please let the rest of us know! I suspected that might be your response! Sure. I need this data for my own purposes, so I'll be happy to do it and re-distribute it. It would be good to pass it on to GRETIL as well, although it would be nice to determine which source they used for the Sanskrit (Patna 1967, Varanasi 1970, their own Skt. mss., etc.) to properly document the file. If anyone can locate that information on the site, please pass that on. At 1:58 AM -0500 2/4/10, Dan Lusthaus wrote: >Incidentally, there is a complete English translation of the AKB by >Leo Pruden, unfortunately taken from Vallee Poussin's French version >rather than the original Sanskrit or Chinese texts (and Pruden >mistranslated the French at times). There is a complete English translation done from the Sanskrit (with critical notes referencing the Tibetan) done by Geshe Lobsang Tharchin and Geshe Jampal Thardo with Art Engle and Robert Clark under the auspices of the American Institute of Buddhist Studies back in the 1970s/80s. It is only now being edited for publication and should come out in the next couple of years as part of the ongoing Tengyur Translation Project at Columbia University. best, Paul From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Feb 4 14:01:16 2010 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 10 08:01:16 -0600 Subject: new publication on Tantric Buddhism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088418.23782.2618557908679278159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With apologies for cross-posting: I am pleased to announce the imminent publication of _Esoteric Buddhism at Dunhuang: Rites and Teachings for this Life and Beyond_, edited by Matthew Kapstein and Sam van Schaik, and published by Brill. (It may now be ordered on the brill.nl website.) The contents are: RITES AND TEACHINGS FOR THIS LIFE? CATHY CANTWELL AND ROBERT MAYER A Dunhuang Phurpa Consecration Rite: IOL Tib J 331.III?s Consecrations Section SAM VAN SCHAIK The Limits of Transgression: The Samaya vows of Mah?yoga KAMMIE MORRISON TAKAHASHI Ritual and Philosophical Speculation in the Rdo rje Sems dpa?i zhus lan ? AND BEYOND YOSHIRO IMAEDA The Bar do thos grol, or ?The Tibetan Book of the Dead?: Tibetan Conversion to Buddhism or Tibetanisation of Buddhism? MATTHEW T. KAPSTEIN Between Na rak and a Hard Place: Evil rebirth and the Violation of Vows in Early Rnying ma pa Sources and Their Dunhuang Antecedents KATHERINE R. TSIANG Buddhist Printed Images and Texts of the Eighth-Tenth Centuries: Typologies of Replication and Representation The volume should be ready for distribution within the next few weeks. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU Thu Feb 4 06:26:18 2010 From: vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU (Viktoria Lyssenko) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 10 09:26:18 +0300 Subject: Abhidharmakoshabhashya in e-format Message-ID: <161227088409.23782.6748167587087392370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to all of you who replied to my reguest. Now I have a reach choise of formats. Unfortunately, I did not find a famous utf-8 to download. And the last remark - it is a pity that there is no full English translation of AKB (we have it in Russian, just not fully published by Rudoi and Ostrovskaya). Yours Victoria ??????.?????. ?????? ????. ????? - ???. http://mail.yandex.ru/nospam/sign From jkirk at SPRO.NET Thu Feb 4 18:42:25 2010 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 10 11:42:25 -0700 Subject: sa.wikipedia.org In-Reply-To: <4B6B0E22.2050504@uni-muenchen.de> Message-ID: <161227088424.23782.14860525268535121861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to all for sockpuppet replies. Joanna K. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Robert Zydenbos Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:13 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: sa.wikipedia.org On 03.02.10 18:32, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Please.....what are "sockpuppet" violations? > To put it very briefly: false identities, set up for a specific purpose -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet) -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Department fuer Asienstudien - Institut fuer Indologie und Tibetologie Universitaet Muenchen Germany Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos From zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE Thu Feb 4 18:12:50 2010 From: zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 10 19:12:50 +0100 Subject: sa.wikipedia.org In-Reply-To: <3FA4C7493BA143BABD0EDCDB268E6758@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <161227088421.23782.4476260295910104393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 03.02.10 18:32, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Please.....what are "sockpuppet" violations? > To put it very briefly: false identities, set up for a specific purpose -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet) -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Department fuer Asienstudien - Institut fuer Indologie und Tibetologie Universitaet Muenchen Germany Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Feb 5 21:54:23 2010 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 10 16:54:23 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit e-text of Abhidharmakosa-bhasya Message-ID: <161227088430.23782.3539842854047211316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings, Following the discussion on this list about the Abhidharmakosa-bhasya (AKB) Sanskrit e-text available from Peking University, I have downloaded and extract the Sanskrit portion and made the resulting files available for download: http://www.columbia.edu/~ph2046/docs/AKB/ In the course of processing this data a number of observations were made, so be sure to read the "READ ME.txt" file included for a detail list of these issues. For those of you planning to work extensively with the Sanskrit of the AKB, be aware that as a result of the discussion on this list, another version of the Sanskrit AKB in e-text has come to light that may prove to be "cleaner" data. It is hoped that this data can be made publicly available as well; I or someone else will post something to this list as soon as it becomes available. Regards, Paul Hackett Columbia University From zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE Fri Feb 5 19:54:11 2010 From: zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 10 20:54:11 +0100 Subject: sa.wikipedia.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088427.23782.12855973437254833510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 03.02.10 16:23, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Thanks for reminding people of our own INDOLOGY FAQ. There's been almost > zero uptake, and I'm curious about why. Just conjecturing, I can think of three reasons why not much has happened on faq.indology.info: (a) The internet is a fiery place, and most Indologists prefer not to get their heads bitten off by the thought police of Vedic foundations, various Hindutva groups and what not, just for writing scholarly opinions. (This is a weak reason, but understandable.) (b) The consideration that one does not get much pu?ya writing in a wiki for the public, if one can use the same time for writing a quotable article or book that earns one points in the academic community, leading to an increase of prestige among peers, tenure, the financing of projects, and what not. (Not a nice reason either, but it makes sense.) (c) Why should anyone bother and take the time to write up what is already found in books and journals, which is where seriously interested people will look anyway? (This is not a very good reason either.) > Maybe we should give up the idea of our own FAQ, and just use Wikipedia? > No, actually it's a good idea to have the FAQ. The Wikipedia in practice is an interesting but anarchic place, and it is a good idea to have something specifc on Indology by members from the academic community: if anyone would like to know what the current academic opinion(s) on certain Indological matters is / are (in contrast to traditional, religious, etc. opinions), s/he could have a look at the FAQ. For the same reason: > Is it too fussy to get a password, perhaps? > Not fussy at all (I think), and the password access is, to a large extent, the justification for having the FAQ at all. Wikipedia etc. are already there for broad exchanges among the general public. And it might, maybe, perhaps, a little, create some publicity and help justify and protect the existence of the discipline in a time when universities (at least here in Europe) are in the process of reducing themselves to a sort of business schools. RZ -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Department f?r Asienstudien - Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Universit?t M?nchen Germany Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos From jwn3y at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Sun Feb 7 09:46:22 2010 From: jwn3y at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (John William Nemec) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 10 04:46:22 -0500 Subject: A "Hindu Prodigal Son?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088433.23782.11011023118424558797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, A colleague of mine has asked whether Hinduism, or another Indian religion, records a story that runs parallel in any way to the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15: 11-32), in addition to the parallel that may be found in the Saddharmapu.n.dariika Suutra. Any suggestions on- or off-list would be most appreciated. Sincerely, John __________________________________ John Nemec, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Indian Religions and South Asian Studies Dept. of Religious Studies University of Virginia 120 Halsey Hall Charlottesville, VA 22911 (USA) nemec at virginia.edu +1-434-924-6716 From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Mon Feb 8 14:39:09 2010 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Rasik Vihari Joshi Tripathi) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 10 08:39:09 -0600 Subject: D=?iso-8859-15?Q?=E9c=E8s?= de Madeleine Biardeau Message-ID: <161227088439.23782.13844483296406055262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am extremely sad to get this news. She was a a very nice person and a great versatile scholar. I met her in 1954 -1956 in paris. We studied together Mahabharata. May God grant her eternal peace. Rasik Vihari Joshi -----Mensaje original----- De: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] En nombre de Lyne BANSAT-BOUDON Enviado el: Lunes, 08 de Febrero de 2010 03:57 a.m. Para: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Asunto: Re: D?c?s de Madeleine Biardeau C'est avec une profonde tristesse que nous avons appris la disparition de Madeleine Biardeau, le 1er f?vrier 2010. Madeleine Biardeau consacra ses premiers travaux ? la philosophie indienne, en particulier ? la philosophie du langage. Rappelons, notamment, sa th?se: Th?orie de la connaissance et philosophie de la parole dans le brahmanisme classique, sa traduction du premier chapitre du V?kyapad?ya, son ?tude sur la Brahmasiddhi de Mandana Mishra. Elle fut aussi le grand d?chiffreur du Mah?bh?rata, dont elle proposa la lecture ? ses ?tudiants et auditeurs de l'Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, de 1968 ? 1977. J'eus le privil?ge de suivre ce remarquable cycle de s?minaires, qui co?ncida avec une p?riode d'intense effervescence intellectuelle et politique. Ce fut l? le travail d'une vie, presque une ?pop?e de l'interpr?tation, ? la mesure de son objet, et que vint couronner la publication d'une consid?rable monographie parue en 2002. Madeleine Biardeau entreprit, parall?lement, un autre travail d'envergure: la traduction du R?m?yana, dont elle assuma la direction, avec Marie-Claude Porcher, pour la Biblioth?que de la Pl?iade (1999). Chercheur exigeant et curieux de l'Inde sous toutes ses formes, Madeleine Biardeau se voulait ?galement anthropologue, allant sur le terrain pour confronter les textes ? la r?alit? indienne contemporaine. D?marche que son livre, Histoires de poteaux: variations v?diques autour de la d?esse hindoue, illustre de fa?on exemplaire. C'est en cette double qualit? de philosophe et d'anthropologue qu'elle fut la directrice du Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud, fond? par Louis Dumont. Nous garderons le souvenir d'un savant ? la pens?e intr?pide et d'une ampleur de vues peu commune. Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France Le 2 f?vr. 10 ? 16:53, Ashok Aklujkar a ?crit : > Sad to get the news. We have lost a sincere and versatile scholar, > gifted > with the ability to come up with refreshing readings of textual > evidence and > a pleasant personality. > > ashok aklujkar > From lyne.bansat-boudon at EPHE.SORBONNE.FR Mon Feb 8 09:56:34 2010 From: lyne.bansat-boudon at EPHE.SORBONNE.FR (Lyne BANSAT-BOUDON) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 10 10:56:34 +0100 Subject: D=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9c=E8s?= de Madeleine Biardeau In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088436.23782.12935233822908386148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> C?est avec une profonde tristesse que nous avons appris la disparition de Madeleine Biardeau, le 1er f?vrier 2010. Madeleine Biardeau consacra ses premiers travaux ? la philosophie indienne, en particulier ? la philosophie du langage. Rappelons, notamment, sa th?se: Th?orie de la connaissance et philosophie de la parole dans le brahmanisme classique, sa traduction du premier chapitre du V?kyapad?ya, son ?tude sur la Brahmasiddhi de Mandana Mishra. Elle fut aussi le grand d?chiffreur du Mah?bh?rata, dont elle proposa la lecture ? ses ?tudiants et auditeurs de l?Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, de 1968 ? 1977. J?eus le privil?ge de suivre ce remarquable cycle de s?minaires, qui co?ncida avec une p?riode d?intense effervescence intellectuelle et politique. Ce fut l? le travail d?une vie, presque une ?pop?e de l?interpr?tation, ? la mesure de son objet, et que vint couronner la publication d?une consid?rable monographie parue en 2002. Madeleine Biardeau entreprit, parall?lement, un autre travail d?envergure: la traduction du R?m?yana, dont elle assuma la direction, avec Marie-Claude Porcher, pour la Biblioth?que de la Pl?iade (1999). Chercheur exigeant et curieux de l?Inde sous toutes ses formes, Madeleine Biardeau se voulait ?galement anthropologue, allant sur le terrain pour confronter les textes ? la r?alit? indienne contemporaine. D?marche que son livre, Histoires de poteaux: variations v?diques autour de la d?esse hindoue, illustre de fa?on exemplaire. C?est en cette double qualit? de philosophe et d?anthropologue qu?elle fut la directrice du Centre d??tudes de l?Inde et de l?Asie du Sud, fond? par Louis Dumont. Nous garderons le souvenir d?un savant ? la pens?e intr?pide et d?une ampleur de vues peu commune. Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d??tudes Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre honoraire de l?Institut universitaire de France Le 2 f?vr. 10 ? 16:53, Ashok Aklujkar a ?crit : > Sad to get the news. We have lost a sincere and versatile scholar, > gifted > with the ability to come up with refreshing readings of textual > evidence and > a pleasant personality. > > ashok aklujkar > From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Mon Feb 8 15:56:52 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 10 16:56:52 +0100 Subject: BitComet as (simpler?) alternative to wget In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088442.23782.2587753316066504581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the bash shell I posted a little while ago, the first line should read #!/bin/bash, not #!bin/sh as I posted. I shall be sending ten Euros to each of you who wrote to tell me of this error (before today). corrected version: ---------- cut here ----------- > #!/bin/bash > > # fetch Kapadia_Desc.Cat.Govt.Colls.MSS.BORI-Jaina > # Literature and Philosophy XIX.1 Svetambara Works_1957 > > for i in {00000001..397..1} > do > wget > http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/data/upload/0048/903/PTIFF/$i.tif > done > ---------- cut here ----------- > From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 9 01:22:25 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 10 02:22:25 +0100 Subject: Depictions of children in pre-modern Indian art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088445.23782.5569242686717104824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you, Klaus. Best, Dominik On 27 January 2010 12:58, Klaus Karttunen wrote: > Dear Dominik and others, > I have only now time to check what I have under the heading "Children" in > my collection of references. Here's the result: > > CHAMPION, C. & R. GARCIA: Litt?rature orale villageoise de l'Inde du nord: > chants et rites de l'enfance des pays d'Aoudh et bhojpuri. 330 p. P.E.F.E.O. > 153. P. 1989. > DESHPANDE, G. A. Kamalabhai: The Child in Ancient India. 15+227 p. Poona > 1936 (diss. Prague 1931, mainly based on the Dharma- and G?hyas?tras). Also > E. Waldschmidt, OLZ 40, 1937, 550-552. > KATRE, Sumitra Mangesh: ?On some words for ?child? in Indo-Aryan?, ABORI > 23, 1942, 242-249 (OIA to NIA). > LOMMEL, Hermann: ?Vedica und Avestica II. Mutter und Kind bei Mensch und > Tier in einigen vedischen Ver?gleichen?, ZII 8, 1931, 274-280. > ROY, Sarat Chandra: ?Birth and Childhood Ceremonies amongst the Oraons?, > JBORS 1:1, 1915, ??-??. > ------ ?Birth, childhood and puberty ceremonies among the > Birhors?, JBORS 4:2, 1918, ??-??. > SHARMA, Arvind: ?Attitudes towards sonship in classical Hinduism and > Theravada Buddhism: a comparison?, JOIB 24, 1975, 338-342. > SHASTRI, Veneemadhava: ?Child in Prakrit Poems?, JOIB 47:1-2, 1997 (2000), > 101-112 (in dramas and lyric anthologies). > STERNBACH, Ludwik: ?Juridical Studies in Ancient Indian Law: 8. Infanticide > and Exposure of New-born Children?, Poona Or. 13:1-2, 1948, 79-87. > THIEME, Paul: "?ber einige Benennungen des Nachkommen", KZ 66, 1939, > 130-144. > ------ "Weiteres zum indischen Adoptionsritual", KZ 67, 1942, > 289 (cf. 1939, 134). > VERPOORTEN, Jean-Marie: ?L?enfant dans la litt?rature rituelle v?dique > (Br?hma?a)?, L?enfant dans les civilisations orientales. Acta Orientalia > Belgica 2. Leuven 1980, ??-??. > > Best, > > Klaus Karttunen > Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies > Institute for Asian and African Studies > PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) > 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND > Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 > Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 > Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi > > > > On Jan 23, 2010, at 7:50 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > Can you point me to a scholarly discussion of this topic? What are the > > earliest depictions of children in S. Asian art? What deductions can be > > made about the idea of the child from any such images? What I'm thinking > > about is the S. A. evidence that might inform a discussion of the > "invention > > of childhood". > > > > Best, > > Dominik > > > From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 9 01:28:31 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 10 02:28:31 +0100 Subject: sa.wikipedia.org In-Reply-To: <4B6C7763.2060008@uni-muenchen.de> Message-ID: <161227088448.23782.8784173815948647936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for your interesting and useful reflections, Robert. I think I agree with all your points. I'll leave the INDOLOGY FAQ where it is, and let's see whether it starts to grow, slowly. Best, Dominik From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 9 01:33:02 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 10 02:33:02 +0100 Subject: Abhidharmakoshabhashya in e-format In-Reply-To: <329401caa567$8297c740$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <161227088451.23782.4034662046203679730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 2010/2/4 Dan Lusthaus > > Incidentally, there is a complete English translation of the AKB by Leo > Pruden, unfortunately taken from Vallee Poussin's French version rather than > the original Sanskrit or Chinese texts (and Pruden mistranslated the French > at times). > http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=13420&MATCH=2 > > Still usable, but a better, more critical translation would be nice. > > Good to know about it. But can a book that costs over ?200 really be called "usable"? D From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 9 11:53:06 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 10 12:53:06 +0100 Subject: Abhidharmakoshabhashya in e-format In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088454.23782.7075443479848919829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In this context, a colleague drew my attention to this site: http://dharma.org.ru/board/topic880-15.html On 9 February 2010 02:33, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > 2010/2/4 Dan Lusthaus > >> >> Incidentally, there is a complete English translation of the AKB by Leo >> Pruden, unfortunately taken from Vallee Poussin's French version rather than >> the original Sanskrit or Chinese texts (and Pruden mistranslated the French >> at times). >> http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=13420&MATCH=2 >> >> Still usable, but a better, more critical translation would be nice. >> >> Good to know about it. But can a book that costs over ?200 really be > called "usable"? > > D > > From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Wed Feb 10 23:40:32 2010 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 10 15:40:32 -0800 Subject: Contacting Atsushi Kanazawa Message-ID: <161227088457.23782.8548020877333259447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone send me, off-list, the electronic or non-electronic address of Kanazawa, Atsushi, the author of a 1989 article, "Notes on the Sa:nkar.sa-kaa.n.da ..."? ashok aklujkar From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Feb 11 11:15:03 2010 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 10 05:15:03 -0600 Subject: Buddhist Tales In-Reply-To: <5F1808CB-60C6-4CF4-BEA6-675113D0FCDC@mac.com> Message-ID: <161227088462.23782.11031776636689155783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There's a very good collection of tales of the major bodhisattvas culled from the Mahayana sutras by the 19th c. Tibetan scholar Mi pham. There is a recent English translation: A GARLAND OF JEWELS: The Eight Great Bodhisattvas by Jamgon Mipham Rinpoche, trans. by Yeshe Gyamtso. I have not yet seen it myself, but I imagine that it is competent, if not a work of scholarship. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From brendan.gillon at MCGILL.CA Thu Feb 11 14:25:03 2010 From: brendan.gillon at MCGILL.CA (Brendan Gillon) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 10 09:25:03 -0500 Subject: book announcement: Logic in Early Classical India Message-ID: <161227088464.23782.6013145599146473604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear collegues, The following is for your information. Logic in Earliest Classical India, edited by Brendan S. Gillon. Papers of the 12th World Sanskrit Conference, v. 10.2. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass Publishers. Papers: The Development of Logic in Early Classical India by Brendan S. Gillon Reasoning as a Science, its Role in Early Dharma Literature, and the Emergence of the Term nyaya by Karin Preisendanz On the Proof Passage of the Carakasamhita: Editions, Manuscripts and Commentaries by Ernst Prets The Logical Reason Called virodhin in Vaisesika and Its Significance for Connection-based Theories of Reasoning by Birgit Kellner The Discussion of pramanas in the Spitzer Manuscript by Eli Franco The Logic of the Sa?dhinirmocanastra: Establishing Right Reasoning Based on Similarity (sarupya) and Dissimilarity (vairupya) by Chizuko Yoshimizu Obversion and Contraposition in the Nyayabhasya by Brendan S. Gillon Anumana in Bhartrhari's Vakyapadiya by Akihiko Akamatsu -- Brendan S. Gillon email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca Department of Linguistics McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088 H3A 1A7 CANADA webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/ From mnstorm at MAC.COM Thu Feb 11 10:25:57 2010 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 10 15:55:57 +0530 Subject: Buddhist Tales Message-ID: <161227088459.23782.1586659132897476199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology, Could someone kindly tell me if there is an anthology of Mahayana tales of the Bodhisattvas, analogous to the Hindu puranas and the narratives of the gods and goddesses? Not Jatakas, but, for example, stories of the deeds of Manjusri, Maitreya or Avalokitesvara...? Many thanks for your help, Mary Mary N. Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director and Lecturer India: National Identity and the Arts and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad www.sit.edu F 301 Lado Sarai New Delhi 110030 Mobile +91 98106 98003 Office Landline +91 11 2437 8003 Residence Landline +91 11295 53298 From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Fri Feb 12 14:16:22 2010 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 10 06:16:22 -0800 Subject: Digital Sanskrit corpus and dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088469.23782.13838436819990050229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for this very helpful tool. ashok aklujkar On 10-02-12 2:10 AM, "Oliver Hellwig" wrote: > I would like to announce that a digital corpus of lemmatized Sanskrit texts > is now available at > > http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/ From acerulli at AYA.YALE.EDU Fri Feb 12 14:52:15 2010 From: acerulli at AYA.YALE.EDU (A.Cerulli) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 10 09:52:15 -0500 Subject: India Review, vol. 9(1) Message-ID: <161227088475.23782.5222291062975060365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am happy to inform you that a new issue of India Review has just been published. Below you will find the table of contents. We are currently accepting submissions for issue 9(4). In addition to the traditional coverage of regional and national politics, foreign policy, and sociology, please note that the editors of *India Review* are actively seeking to expand the intellectual scope of the journal to include issues of religious discourse, practice, and community in Indian history and contemporary society. I invite all interested on the INDOLOGY listserve to submit their work. For more information, please visit - http://tinyurl.com/yb3oyc5 Sincerely, Anthony Cerulli Hobart and William Smith Colleges Managing Editor, *India Review* * * * * India Review, Volume 9 Issue 1 2010 *ISSN:* 1557-3036 (electronic) 1473-6489 (paper) *Publication Frequency:* 4 issues per year *Subjects:* India (studies of); Politics & International Relations; *Publisher:* Routledge *Editorials* *Editor's Note: Managing Editor of India Review* *Eswaran Sridharan * *Original Articles* *India's International Quest for Oil and Natural Gas: Fueling Foreign Policy?* *Tanvi Madan * *India and Pakistan: The Origins of Their Different Politico-Military Trajectories* *Manjeet S. Pardesi; Sumit Ganguly * *Review Essay* *Partition, Its Refugees, and Postcolonial State-Making in South Asia* *Cabeiri Debergh Robinson * From hellwig7 at GMX.DE Fri Feb 12 10:10:24 2010 From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 10 10:10:24 +0000 Subject: Digital Sanskrit corpus and dictionary Message-ID: <161227088467.23782.13014793332466476645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I would like to announce that a digital corpus of lemmatized Sanskrit texts is now available at http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/ The corpus contains more than 2.500.000 manually annotated entries. It offers the possibilities to search for lemmata and collocations and presents lists of referenced finite and infinite forms of each verbal lemma contained in the lexical database. In addition, the corpus makes it possible to examine the distribution of lexical units over the time using basic statistical measures. Best, Oliver Hellwig PD Dr. Oliver Hellwig S?dasien-Institut, Universit?t Heidelberg Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 69120 Heidelberg From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Fri Feb 12 14:23:53 2010 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 10 15:23:53 +0100 Subject: Digital Sanskrit corpus and dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088472.23782.13669441311965332071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would add wonderful, thank you to all the team who contributed to it. Christophe Vielle >Thanks for this very helpful tool. > >ashok aklujkar > > >On 10-02-12 2:10 AM, "Oliver Hellwig" wrote: > >> I would like to announce that a digital corpus of lemmatized Sanskrit texts >> is now available at >> >> http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/ -- http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Fri Feb 12 21:29:39 2010 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (george thompson) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 10 16:29:39 -0500 Subject: Digital Sanskrit corpus and dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088477.23782.8452888940493825160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Oliver, I have had the chance today to look into your corpus & dictionary and I too think that it is a valuable tool. I also thank you for your efforts. George Thompson Oliver Hellwig wrote: >Dear colleagues, > >I would like to announce that a digital corpus of lemmatized Sanskrit texts >is now available at > >http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/ > >The corpus contains more than 2.500.000 manually annotated entries. It >offers the possibilities to search for lemmata and collocations and presents >lists of referenced finite and infinite forms of each verbal lemma contained >in the lexical database. In addition, the corpus makes it possible to >examine the distribution of lexical units over the time using basic >statistical measures. > > >Best, > >Oliver Hellwig > > >PD Dr. Oliver Hellwig >S?dasien-Institut, Universit?t Heidelberg >Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 >69120 Heidelberg > > > From Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR Sat Feb 13 00:59:12 2010 From: Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR (=?utf-8?Q?G=C3=A9rard_Huet?=) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 10 01:59:12 +0100 Subject: Digital Sanskrit corpus and dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088479.23782.7163534254171100797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bravo Oliver. Your work is amazing. Very impressive, and potentially extremely useful. G?rard Le 12 f?vr. 10 ? 11:10, Oliver Hellwig a ?crit : > Dear colleagues, > > I would like to announce that a digital corpus of lemmatized > Sanskrit texts > is now available at > > http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/ > > The corpus contains more than 2.500.000 manually annotated entries. It > offers the possibilities to search for lemmata and collocations and > presents > lists of referenced finite and infinite forms of each verbal lemma > contained > in the lexical database. In addition, the corpus makes it possible to > examine the distribution of lexical units over the time using basic > statistical measures. > > > Best, > > Oliver Hellwig > > > PD Dr. Oliver Hellwig > S?dasien-Institut, Universit?t Heidelberg > Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 > 69120 Heidelberg > > From ambapradeep at GMAIL.COM Sat Feb 13 03:10:47 2010 From: ambapradeep at GMAIL.COM (amba kulkarni) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 10 08:40:47 +0530 Subject: Digital Sanskrit corpus and dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088482.23782.18240505437666862410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Oliver, It is simple awful. I am sure the indologists will benefit from this, and this tool will provide a new dimension to the indology research. It will be great if we can make all the electronically available Sanskrit texts indexed this way! with warm regards, Amba Kulkarni Reader and Head Department of Sanskrit Studies University of Hyderabad 040 23133802(off) http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in On 12 February 2010 15:40, Oliver Hellwig wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I would like to announce that a digital corpus of lemmatized Sanskrit texts > is now available at > > http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/ > > The corpus contains more than 2.500.000 manually annotated entries. It > offers the possibilities to search for lemmata and collocations and > presents > lists of referenced finite and infinite forms of each verbal lemma > contained > in the lexical database. In addition, the corpus makes it possible to > examine the distribution of lexical units over the time using basic > statistical measures. > > > Best, > > Oliver Hellwig > > > PD Dr. Oliver Hellwig > S?dasien-Institut, Universit?t Heidelberg > Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 > 69120 Heidelberg > From ambapradeep at GMAIL.COM Sat Feb 13 08:36:55 2010 From: ambapradeep at GMAIL.COM (amba kulkarni) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 10 14:06:55 +0530 Subject: Digital Sanskrit corpus and dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088484.23782.2050180883594209443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oops, I am sorry, I mean awesome! -- amba kulkarni P.S. By the way, I have come across usage of 'awful' in the sense of amazing as 'She is awful pretty (cobuild dictionary), which resembles the use of the word bhaya.mkara in Marathi as an adjective of 'su.mdara'. May be that might be the cause of confusion. On 13 February 2010 08:40, amba kulkarni wrote: > Dear Oliver, > > It is simple awful. I am sure the indologists will benefit from this, and > this tool will provide a new dimension to the indology research. > > It will be great if we can make all the electronically available Sanskrit > texts indexed this way! > > with warm regards, > Amba Kulkarni > > Reader and Head > Department of Sanskrit Studies > University of Hyderabad > 040 23133802(off) > > http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in > > On 12 February 2010 15:40, Oliver Hellwig wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I would like to announce that a digital corpus of lemmatized Sanskrit >> texts >> is now available at >> >> http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/ >> >> The corpus contains more than 2.500.000 manually annotated entries. It >> offers the possibilities to search for lemmata and collocations and >> presents >> lists of referenced finite and infinite forms of each verbal lemma >> contained >> in the lexical database. In addition, the corpus makes it possible to >> examine the distribution of lexical units over the time using basic >> statistical measures. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Oliver Hellwig >> >> >> PD Dr. Oliver Hellwig >> S?dasien-Institut, Universit?t Heidelberg >> Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 >> 69120 Heidelberg >> > > From phbernede at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 13 20:19:33 2010 From: phbernede at YAHOO.COM (Pascale Haag) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 10 20:19:33 +0000 Subject: Digital Sanskrit corpus and dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088487.23782.17490558125843666592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Oliver, Wonderful work indeed... I just sent your link to a specialist of ancient Greek who is currently writing a paper on digital humanities and especially on the?Thesaurus Linguae Graecae?(TLG,?www.tlg.uci.edu). I copy his answer here, just for fun:"C'est extr?mement impressionnant... Une bonne g?n?ration plus avanc? que le TLG !"? Many thanks for sharing this ! Pascale Haag. --- En date de?: Ven 12.2.10, amba kulkarni a ?crit?: De: amba kulkarni Objet: Re: Digital Sanskrit corpus and dictionary ?: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Vendredi 12 F?vrier 2010, 22h10 Dear Oliver, It is simple awful. I am sure the indologists will benefit from this, and this tool will provide a new dimension to the indology research. It will be great if we can make all the electronically available Sanskrit texts indexed this way! with warm regards, Amba Kulkarni Reader and Head Department of Sanskrit Studies University of Hyderabad 040 23133802(off) http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in On 12 February 2010 15:40, Oliver Hellwig wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I would like to announce that a digital corpus of lemmatized Sanskrit texts > is now available at > > http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/ > > The corpus contains more than 2.500.000 manually annotated entries. It > offers the possibilities to search for lemmata and collocations and > presents > lists of referenced finite and infinite forms of each verbal lemma > contained > in the lexical database. In addition, the corpus makes it possible to > examine the distribution of lexical units over the time using basic > statistical measures. > > > Best, > > Oliver Hellwig > > > PD Dr. Oliver Hellwig > S?dasien-Institut, Universit?t Heidelberg > Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 > 69120 Heidelberg > From hellwig7 at GMX.DE Sun Feb 14 09:48:38 2010 From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 10 09:48:38 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit corpus Message-ID: <161227088495.23782.7184721190864698575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, many thanks for the positive feedback I got for the Sanskrit corpus in the past two days. Hope it will be useful for your work! At this place, I want to express my gratitude to Peter Gietz, HRA, University of Heidelberg, who was willing to host the corpus. Best, Oliver Hellwig --- PD Dr. Oliver Hellwig S?dasien-Institut, Universit?t Heidelberg Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 69120 Heidelberg From meulnbld at XS4ALL.NL Sun Feb 14 09:30:02 2010 From: meulnbld at XS4ALL.NL (G.J. Meulenbeld) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 10 10:30:02 +0100 Subject: Digital Sanskrit corpus and dictionary Message-ID: <161227088489.23782.3433911377598031813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Oliver, Many thanks for the efforts resulting in this extremely useful tool. Best wishes, Jan Meulenbeld ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oliver Hellwig" To: Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 11:10 AM Subject: Digital Sanskrit corpus and dictionary > Dear colleagues, > > I would like to announce that a digital corpus of lemmatized Sanskrit > texts > is now available at > > http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/ > > The corpus contains more than 2.500.000 manually annotated entries. It > offers the possibilities to search for lemmata and collocations and > presents > lists of referenced finite and infinite forms of each verbal lemma > contained > in the lexical database. In addition, the corpus makes it possible to > examine the distribution of lexical units over the time using basic > statistical measures. > > > Best, > > Oliver Hellwig > > > PD Dr. Oliver Hellwig > S?dasien-Institut, Universit?t Heidelberg > Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 > 69120 Heidelberg > From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Sun Feb 14 09:34:07 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 10 10:34:07 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ Message-ID: <161227088493.23782.5575465614703129655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Common misconceptions and misnomers" After a chat with my colleague Thomas Kintaert yesterday, I've added a section to the FAQ with the above title. The current subsections are: - 1 Wrong translations - 1.1 ?rtava - 2 False friends - 3 Common errors - 3.1 How to pronounce Mah?bh?rata and R?m?yana - 4 Common confusions - 4.1 K?l? and Kali - 4.2 Karma and K?ma But you can put what text or headings you like there. I thought this might encourage us to share our pet annoyances :-) Dominik From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Mon Feb 15 06:12:53 2010 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 10 22:12:53 -0800 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <26340_1266212542_1266212542_4B78DEB2.20002@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088506.23782.7002823088777208339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gary, Are you sure the persons concerned were not referring to the rivers Vara.naa and Asi (sometimes in a dvandva) that give rise to the name Vaaraa.nasii? First you speak of "stress accent," then you employ "lengthen and stress," and finally you speak only of "long." This puzzles me. Pl clarify which specific phonetic feature you have in mind. To turn to other irritating things, "Hindi" and "Hindu," misspelling of "Gandhi" as "Ghandhi" or "Ghandi". ashok aklujkar From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Feb 15 05:42:10 2010 From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (Gary Tubb) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 10 23:42:10 -0600 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088503.23782.502308788232074760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry on "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the effect that, for the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and "raamaayaNa," the third syllable in this name is the least appropriate place to apply a stress accent. But I have been struck over the years by the frequency with which many people I respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress the vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether they might be following some local tradition unknown to me, despite the official spelling of the name. Are they? Is there any good reason to make the third "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? --- Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations The University of Chicago Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > "Common misconceptions and misnomers" > > After a chat with my colleague Thomas Kintaert yesterday, I've added a > section to the FAQ with the above title. The current subsections are: > > > - 1 Wrong translations > - 1.1 ?rtava > - 2 False friends > - 3 Common errors > - 3.1 How to pronounce Mah?bh?rata and > R?m?yana > - 4 Common confusions > - 4.1 K?l? and > Kali > - 4.2 Karma and > K?ma > > > But you can put what text or headings you like there. > > I thought this might encourage us to share our pet annoyances :-) > > Dominik > From fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Feb 15 08:04:54 2010 From: fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU (FRITS STAAL) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 00:04:54 -0800 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088512.23782.9988414400503301773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I spent one year in the city and visited it countless times and never heard one native pronounce its name as VaranAAsi but always as (in emailese and without any stress accent): VarANasi. cheers, > Yield to temptation, please Gary :-) > > I think the VaranAAsi pronouncers are just influenced by norms of English > word rhythm, and copying each other. > > Dominik > > On 15 February 2010 06:42, Gary Tubb wrote: > >> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry on >> "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the effect that, >> for >> the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and "raamaayaNa," the >> third >> syllable in this name is the least appropriate place to apply a stress >> accent. But I have been struck over the years by the frequency with >> which >> many people I respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and >> stress >> the vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether they >> might be following some local tradition unknown to me, despite the >> official >> spelling of the name. Are they? Is there any good reason to make the >> third >> "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? >> >> --- >> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >> The University of Chicago >> >> >> >> >> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >> >>> "Common misconceptions and misnomers" >>> >>> After a chat with my colleague Thomas Kintaert yesterday, I've added a >>> section to the FAQ with the above title. The current subsections are: >>> >>> >>> - 1 Wrong translations< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Wrong_translations >>> > >>> - 1.1 ?rtava< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#.C4.81rtava >>> > >>> - 2 False friends< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#False_friends >>> > >>> - 3 Common errors< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Common_errors >>> > >>> >>> - 3.1 How to pronounce Mah?bh?rata and >>> R?m?yana< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#How_to_pronounce_Mah.C4.81bh.C4.81rata_and_R.C4.81m.C4.81yana >>> > >>> - 4 Common confusions< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Common_confusions >>> > >>> - 4.1 K?l? and >>> Kali< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#K.C4.81l.C4.AB_and_Kali >>> > >>> - 4.2 Karma and >>> K?ma< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Karma_and_K.C4.81ma >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> But you can put what text or headings you like there. >>> >>> I thought this might encourage us to share our pet annoyances :-) >>> >>> Dominik >>> >>> >> > Frits Staal http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal From eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 15 12:12:05 2010 From: eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 04:12:05 -0800 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088536.23782.17957488307068586252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Based on my experience living in Vaaraanasi for a while, the natives always pronounce it that way. Only the foreigners pronounce it Vaaranaasi. But many of the natives also use the Hindi (Urdu?) form of Banaaras which, of course, puts the accent on the second to last syllable like the mispronounced form. It may have something to do with it but it's more likely simply due to English accent habits. Unless there is an Urdu/Persian rule I don't know about. Best, Dean Michael Anderson From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Mon Feb 15 04:45:01 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 05:45:01 +0100 Subject: Fwd: King's College Palaeography In-Reply-To: <0E3A3702B26D954F97407497EE16D4D801B8CD9B0FD5@EXMAIL.hws.edu> Message-ID: <161227088497.23782.1243286084611609952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleague, News is circulating that the Chair of Palaeography at King's College London, David Ganz, is about to lose his job since KCL is in the process of eradicating 22 jobs in a manner that appears crude and inefficient. Teaching staff at KCL have raised the idea of college-wide salary reductions as a way of saving actual jobs and avoiding cuts like this, but at a meeting last week the college management dismissed such a collegial approach on the grounds that it was "not progressive". Here is part of the text from the Facebook page (see link below for full information): King?s College London is undertaking what they call ?strategic > disinvestment? and have informed our colleague, David Ganz, on Tuesday that > funding for the Chair in Palaeography will cease from 31 August this year, > when David will be out of a job. This is part of a wider context whereby all > academic staff in the School of Arts and Humanities at King?s have to > re-apply for their own jobs before the 1st March. They think this the ?most > humane way? of losing 22 academic posts. > > KCL's Chair is the only established chair in Palaeography in the UK (held > by our late members Julian Brown and Tilly de la Mare). I am, naturally, > writing on behalf of the Committee to express dismay at the loss of the > Chair but the more people who write in protest the better. > > The person to write to is: Professor Rick Trainor, The Principal, King?s > College, The Strand, London WC2R 2LS and copy to Professor Jan Palmowski, > Head of the School of Arts and Humanities." > Fuller details are available at: - http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=303202385890&ref=share And the link below leads to an easy online system for signing a petition about this matter: - http://www.petitiononline.com/spkcl10/ -- Dominik Wujastyk University of Vienna From rhayes at UNM.EDU Mon Feb 15 13:43:55 2010 From: rhayes at UNM.EDU (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 06:43:55 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <10499_1266214382_4B78E5ED_10499_11_1_C79E25E5.3CC6%ashok.aklujkar@ubc.ca> Message-ID: <161227088541.23782.15626725637891114587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Feb 14, 2010, at 11:12 PM, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > To turn to other irritating things, "Hindi" and "Hindu," misspelling of > "Gandhi" as "Ghandhi" or "Ghandi". In some dialects of American English, the ones in which Ghandi is the preferred spelling, one also finds references to a fellow known as the Bhudda, sometimes known as the Buddah. I wish I were joking. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy MSC03 2140 1 University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001 From rhayes at UNM.EDU Mon Feb 15 15:07:05 2010 From: rhayes at UNM.EDU (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 08:07:05 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <4B795EE1.7080509@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088552.23782.10171990449143913645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 08:49 -0600, Gary Tubb wrote: > I should have been clearer. I was referring to the way that native > speakers of English often pronounce the name of the city, Varanasi. All this discussion of pronunciation prompts me to report a lecture I went to recently given by a Franciscan brother to an audience of 1200 people, most of them Catholics. To his great credit, the Franciscan was talking about how much modern Catholics have to learn from other spiritual traditions. I was compelled, however, to cringe repeatedly as the earnest Franciscan told us about Patanjaali (rhymes with "fat an' jolly") and Samkaara (Sam who?). The high point of the talk for me was the explanation of how mandaalas (rhymes with "man dollars" as pronounced in Boston) are used in the Hindi religion. It was with mixed feelings that I reflected on how the seeds sown by careful Indologists are now being reaped in quotidian popular culture around the world. -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy MSC03 2140 1 University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001 From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Feb 15 14:49:05 2010 From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (Gary Tubb) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 08:49:05 -0600 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088546.23782.4683095700285918574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashok, I should have been clearer. I was referring to the way that native speakers of English often pronounce the name of the city, Varanasi. And I had two features in mind: the stressing of the penultimate syllable, and the related pronouncing of the vowel in that syllable as more like a Sanskrit long "a" than a Sanskrit short "a". By "more like" I'm thinking of quality more than quantity. --Gary. Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > Gary, > > Are you sure the persons concerned were not referring to the rivers Vara.naa > and Asi (sometimes in a dvandva) that give rise to the name Vaaraa.nasii? > > First you speak of "stress accent," then you employ "lengthen and stress," > and finally you speak only of "long." This puzzles me. Pl clarify which > specific phonetic feature you have in mind. > > To turn to other irritating things, "Hindi" and "Hindu," misspelling of > "Gandhi" as "Ghandhi" or "Ghandi". > > ashok aklujkar > From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Mon Feb 15 07:58:19 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 08:58:19 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: <4B78DEB2.20002@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088509.23782.3501509034293512728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yield to temptation, please Gary :-) I think the VaranAAsi pronouncers are just influenced by norms of English word rhythm, and copying each other. Dominik On 15 February 2010 06:42, Gary Tubb wrote: > I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry on > "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the effect that, for > the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and "raamaayaNa," the third > syllable in this name is the least appropriate place to apply a stress > accent. But I have been struck over the years by the frequency with which > many people I respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress > the vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether they > might be following some local tradition unknown to me, despite the official > spelling of the name. Are they? Is there any good reason to make the third > "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? > > --- > Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair > Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations > The University of Chicago > > > > > Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >> "Common misconceptions and misnomers" >> >> After a chat with my colleague Thomas Kintaert yesterday, I've added a >> section to the FAQ with the above title. The current subsections are: >> >> >> - 1 Wrong translations< >> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Wrong_translations >> > >> - 1.1 ?rtava< >> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#.C4.81rtava >> > >> - 2 False friends< >> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#False_friends >> > >> - 3 Common errors< >> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Common_errors >> > >> >> - 3.1 How to pronounce Mah?bh?rata and >> R?m?yana< >> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#How_to_pronounce_Mah.C4.81bh.C4.81rata_and_R.C4.81m.C4.81yana >> > >> - 4 Common confusions< >> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Common_confusions >> > >> - 4.1 K?l? and >> Kali< >> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#K.C4.81l.C4.AB_and_Kali >> > >> - 4.2 Karma and >> K?ma< >> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Karma_and_K.C4.81ma >> > >> >> >> >> But you can put what text or headings you like there. >> >> I thought this might encourage us to share our pet annoyances :-) >> >> Dominik >> >> > From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Mon Feb 15 08:29:26 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 09:29:26 +0100 Subject: King's College Palaeography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088515.23782.686450457218110963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, as you probably know, Greg, I was made redundant myself last year by University College London. The redundancy procedures were interesting to observe (less fun to experience). There are lots of written rules issued by Human Resources that are meant to protect staff from redundancy, such as pooling of a department's staff to see whether a member's job can be saved through natural attrition, etc. But in the event, these protective rules are implemented very weakly or not at all. Nobody at the level of deans really seems to care about individual teaching staff, and research staff are at the very bottom of the pile, and extremely vulnerable. I am now at the University of Vienna, and very glad to be here. It's a fine place with many south asianists and much serious work going on. In the last budget, late last year, the Austrian Government kept funding levels for academic research level, and didn't cut them (as best I understand) in spite of the crunch. There are serious pressures here too, but they seem to revolve more around the problems arising out of the deep restructuring required by the Bologna Process rather than financial hardship. There were wide-scale student campus protests and occupations a few months ago, which were about over-crowding of classrooms and other issues. I am no longer particularly close to what's happening in the UK, but I still get get some admin emails from UCL and I know they are going through terrible convulsions with threatened redundancies and so forth, rather like KCL. The Unions are in action, and have never been more sorely needed. What distresses me most is the lack of creative vision or grasp of knowledge and discovery processes by the college principles and provosts, and of course the government ministers. All issues are viewed relentlessly through the metaphor of business and productivity, instead of education and creativity. And a deep and hostile cleavage has developed in most British universities between the senior administrators, deans and provosts, etc., and the working teachers and researchers (faculty). It's like some Victorian scenario of pit owners and miners. Britain no longer has a government department of Education. As of last June, universities are the responsibility of the "Department for Business, Innovation, and Skills" (see here) that is mostly made up of the old "Department of Trade." The word University isn't even part of the Department's title any longer. And the "vision" if one can dignify it with that word, is purely financial. Lord Mandelson is the head man. The opening words of the Department's websiteare: Our mission is building a dynamic and competitive UK economy by: creating > the conditions for business success; promoting innovation, enterprise and > science; and giving everyone the skills and opportunities to succeed. To > achieve this we will foster world-class universities and promote an open > global economy. > They're not ashamed of such a view, rather they trumpet it. The related rise of the "audit culture" that has been happein in higher education in Britain for two decades or more was brilliantly analysed in, Cris Shore and Susan Wright, "Audit Culture and Anthropology: Neo-Liberalism in British Higher Education", *The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute*, Vol. 5, No. 4. (Dec., 1999), pp. 557-575. [stable URL ] and revisited at greater length in, Marilyn Strathern (ed), *Audit Cultures: Anthropological Studies in Accountability, Ethics and the Academy* (Routledge, 2000).ISBN-13: 978-0415233279. [Google books. ] Best, Dominik On 15 February 2010 05:56, Greg Bailey wrote: > Dear Dominik, > > This is appalling and it is not just an attack on the individual but on the > humanities in general, if not of social-democratic values as well. > > I read an article in the Melbourne Age today quoting something from the > Guardian to the effect that thousands of jobs are to be lost in British > universities. Is that true? If so it will percolate elsewhere in the > Anglo-Saxon world, if not outside of it. > > Cheers, > > Greg Bailey > > > On 15/02/10 3:45 PM, "Dominik Wujastyk" wrote: > > > Dear colleague, > > > > News is circulating that the Chair of Palaeography at King's College > London, > > David Ganz, is about to lose his job since KCL is in the process of > > eradicating 22 jobs in a manner that appears crude and inefficient. > > > > Teaching staff at KCL have raised the idea of college-wide salary > reductions > > as a way of saving actual jobs and avoiding cuts like this, but at a > meeting > > last week the college management dismissed such a collegial approach on > the > > grounds that it was "not progressive". > > > > Here is part of the text from the Facebook page (see link below for full > > information): > > > > King?s College London is undertaking what they call ?strategic > >> disinvestment? and have informed our colleague, David Ganz, on Tuesday > that > >> funding for the Chair in Palaeography will cease from 31 August this > year, > >> when David will be out of a job. This is part of a wider context whereby > all > >> academic staff in the School of Arts and Humanities at King?s have to > >> re-apply for their own jobs before the 1st March. They think this the > ?most > >> humane way? of losing 22 academic posts. > >> > > > > > >> KCL's Chair is the only established chair in Palaeography in the UK > (held > >> by our late members Julian Brown and Tilly de la Mare). I am, naturally, > >> writing on behalf of the Committee to express dismay at the loss of the > >> Chair but the more people who write in protest the better. > >> > > > > > >> The person to write to is: Professor Rick Trainor, The Principal, King?s > >> College, The Strand, London WC2R 2LS and copy to Professor Jan > Palmowski, > >> Head of the School of Arts and Humanities." > >> > > > > Fuller details are available at: > > > > - http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=303202385890&ref=share > > > > And the link below leads to an easy online system for signing a petition > > about this matter: > > > > - http://www.petitiononline.com/spkcl10/ > > > > > > -- > > Dominik Wujastyk > > University of Vienna > From hwtull at MSN.COM Mon Feb 15 14:31:37 2010 From: hwtull at MSN.COM (Herman Tull) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 09:31:37 -0500 Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: <448542.74138.qm@web8603.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227088544.23782.8449638718597103791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> But, at least we can say it is a good thing that these words (mispronounced and misspelled as they are) have come into the general lexicon. By the way, I must admit to having more than once ordered a Paanini when I should have been asking for a Paniini; confusing a grammarian with a grilled turkey sandwich. I guess this goes both ways! (In fact, as a a result of my misadventures in pronunciation, I am now utterly terrified by having to order one of these sandwiches.) But, then, I also once asked for "bed bugs" rather than "curds" in my terribly broken Telegu. Herman Tull -------------------------------------------------- From: "Dipak Bhattacharya" Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 7:56 AM To: Subject: Re: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ > 15 02 10 > Kittel?s transliteration gives v?ran?si but the Kanna? word is written > ??????? that is v?r??asi. Could the given transliteration be a printing > error? > To the wrong pronunciations add Himalaya for Him?laya and Panini for > P??ini. But It is no use counting them, they are a legion. > Best for all > DB > > --- On Mon, 15/2/10, Jean-Luc Chevillard > wrote: > > > From: Jean-Luc Chevillard > Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Monday, 15 February, 2010, 4:59 PM > > > As a post-scriptum to my first remark, > I want to addd that I have just had a look at Kittel's Kannada-English > dictionary > > it contains on page 1392 > an entry "v?ra??si" > and the authority given is "Bp. 54, 65; 58, 34; My." > > The list abbreviations gives > > Bp. = "Basava pur??a. Bibliotheca Carn?taka, Mangalore, 1850" > > If as early as the 6th century, which is a date often given for the Tamil > /Ma?im?kalai /, we find the spelling v?ra??ci, > and if that spelling has remained the norm in Tamil > [See: > ] > there must be a reason. > > It would be interesting to have additional data for other indian languages > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Paris) > > > > Le 2/15/2010 10:43 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : >> I would be interested in having comments >> on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. >> >> See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) >> >> ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, situate between the rivers >> Vara?? and As?; ????. ??????????? ???????????? (???. 13, 3). >> >> See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. >> >> ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See ???????. (????. ??.) >> >> The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling v?ra??ci is >> the Ma?im?kalai >> and comes from the chapter that tells the story of ?????????. >> >> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >> >> >> Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : >>> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry on >>> "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the effect that, >>> for the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and "raamaayaNa," the >>> third syllable in this name is the least appropriate place to apply a >>> stress accent. But I have been struck over the years by the frequency >>> with which many people I respect as experts on Banaras habitually >>> lengthen and stress the vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I >>> wonder whether they might be following some local tradition unknown to >>> me, despite the official spelling of the name. Are they? Is there any >>> good reason to make the third "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? >>> >>> --- >>> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >>> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >>> The University of Chicago >>> >> > > > > Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! > http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/ > From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Feb 15 14:52:01 2010 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 09:52:01 -0500 Subject: Address of Alaka Hejib-Agera Message-ID: <161227088549.23782.10678746255134225614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, could you give me the current email and/or address of Alaka Hejib- Agera? She got her Harvard PhD in 1984: Hejib, Alaka. ?ha, Gha and Ha in the ?gveda / by Alaka Hejib. 1984. Please answer privately to : witzel at fas.harvard.edu Thanks! Michael ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line: 617- 496 2990 From rhayes at UNM.EDU Mon Feb 15 17:20:57 2010 From: rhayes at UNM.EDU (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 10:20:57 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <20100215105201.CJS79264@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088574.23782.855083905382140906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 10:52 -0600, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > Isn't every one being a bit too precious about all this? > What do French speakers do with English names? You're right, of course. Look at what a mess the French made of the English word Illinois! You caught us showing off our erudition. Richard of Albuquerque (a city the name of which 97% of its residents mispronounce) From fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Feb 15 15:24:28 2010 From: fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frances Pritchett) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 10:24:28 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <1266246425.1987.8.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <161227088555.23782.50194625675352770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> And moving on from VaraNAAsi, let's not forget that other great cultural center, the POON-jab. Fran Richard P. Hayes wrote: > On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 08:49 -0600, Gary Tubb wrote: > > >> I should have been clearer. I was referring to the way that native >> speakers of English often pronounce the name of the city, Varanasi. >> > > All this discussion of pronunciation prompts me to report a lecture I > went to recently given by a Franciscan brother to an audience of 1200 > people, most of them Catholics. To his great credit, the Franciscan was > talking about how much modern Catholics have to learn from other > spiritual traditions. I was compelled, however, to cringe repeatedly as > the earnest Franciscan told us about Patanjaali (rhymes with "fat an' > jolly") and Samkaara (Sam who?). The high point of the talk for me was > the explanation of how mandaalas (rhymes with "man dollars" as > pronounced in Boston) are used in the Hindi religion. It was with mixed > feelings that I reflected on how the seeds sown by careful Indologists > are now being reaped in quotidian popular culture around the world. > > From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Feb 15 15:43:46 2010 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 10:43:46 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <4B79672C.1040509@columbia.edu> Message-ID: <161227088558.23782.16172200623390539599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> And to add to that, I recently met someone who had visited the city of Pune (pronounced with a '-une' as in "immune"). He went there from the city of Mumbai (with "-umb" as in "numb"). Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Frances Pritchett [fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU] Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:24 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi And moving on from VaraNAAsi, let's not forget that other great cultural center, the POON-jab. Fran Richard P. Hayes wrote: > On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 08:49 -0600, Gary Tubb wrote: > > >> I should have been clearer. I was referring to the way that native >> speakers of English often pronounce the name of the city, Varanasi. >> > > All this discussion of pronunciation prompts me to report a lecture I > went to recently given by a Franciscan brother to an audience of 1200 > people, most of them Catholics. To his great credit, the Franciscan was > talking about how much modern Catholics have to learn from other > spiritual traditions. I was compelled, however, to cringe repeatedly as > the earnest Franciscan told us about Patanjaali (rhymes with "fat an' > jolly") and Samkaara (Sam who?). The high point of the talk for me was > the explanation of how mandaalas (rhymes with "man dollars" as > pronounced in Boston) are used in the Hindi religion. It was with mixed > feelings that I reflected on how the seeds sown by careful Indologists > are now being reaped in quotidian popular culture around the world. > > From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Mon Feb 15 09:43:51 2010 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 10:43:51 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: <4B78DEB2.20002@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088521.23782.3865124105418332683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be interested in having comments on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, situate between the rivers Vara?? and As?; ????. ??????????? ???????????? (???. 13, 3). See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See ???????. (????. ??.) The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling v?ra??ci is the Ma?im?kalai and comes from the chapter that tells the story of ?????????. -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : > I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry on > "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the effect > that, for the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and > "raamaayaNa," the third syllable in this name is the least appropriate > place to apply a stress accent. But I have been struck over the years > by the frequency with which many people I respect as experts on > Banaras habitually lengthen and stress the vowel in the third > syllable---so much so that I wonder whether they might be following > some local tradition unknown to me, despite the official spelling of > the name. Are they? Is there any good reason to make the third "a" > vowel in "Varanasi" long? > > --- > Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair > Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations > The University of Chicago > From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Feb 15 16:52:01 2010 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 10:52:01 -0600 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088568.23782.10558547496749650302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Isn't every one being a bit too precious about all this? What do French speakers do with English names? What does everyone do with Chinese? How many of us get our Arabic quite right? Not to mention Thai, Tibetan or Khmer... The idea that one is going to launch a campaign to rectify the massacre of Indian names and terms in English is plain silly when you think about it. Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From jkirk at SPRO.NET Mon Feb 15 18:02:10 2010 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 11:02:10 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088589.23782.18244576216470761022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, his surname suggests that his ancestors came from the northern Iran area known as Rusht, as in (Eng.) 'rushed'. But who knows how he pronounces it. Joanna K. ======================== God yes. And the author, Salman Rooshdie? (Has anyone heard him pronounce his own name? Not that that would be convincing evidence to an indologist :-) Dominik On 15 February 2010 16:24, Frances Pritchett wrote: > And moving on from VaraNAAsi, let's not forget that other great > cultural center, the POON-jab. > > Fran > > From klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Mon Feb 15 09:22:45 2010 From: klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 11:22:45 +0200 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088518.23782.15446523887539220754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, This seems nice idea. Among common confusions, I think, Budha/Buddha and ?astra/??stra should be added. Best, Klaus Karttunen Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Institute for Asian and African Studies PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi On Feb 14, 2010, at 11:34 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > "Common misconceptions and misnomers" > > After a chat with my colleague Thomas Kintaert yesterday, I've added a > section to the FAQ with the above title. The current subsections are: > > > - 1 Wrong translations > - 1.1 ?rtava > - 2 False friends > - 3 Common errors > - 3.1 How to pronounce Mah?bh?rata and > R?m?yana > - 4 Common confusions > - 4.1 K?l? and > Kali > - 4.2 Karma and > K?ma > > > But you can put what text or headings you like there. > > I thought this might encourage us to share our pet annoyances :-) > > Dominik > From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Feb 15 17:28:28 2010 From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (Gary Tubb) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 11:28:28 -0600 Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: <4B796C76.5060609@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227088580.23782.2326692616833873908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is exactly the sort of thing I was wondering about when I brought up the matter of the pronunciation of Varanasi. The data from Kannada is very interesting, as is the contrast with Malayalam.. Velcheru Narayana Rao informs me that "in Telugu speech it is vaaranaasi. (The third syllable long, and also the last vowel short.)" So it does appear that, unlike the words "Mahabharata" and "Ramayana," for "Varanasi" there are strong, though regional, traditions supporting a second pronunciation. --Gary. Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations The University of Chicago Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > Dear Herman, > Dear Professor Bhattacharya, > > I wonder whether it is a precise characterization > (from a descriptive linguistics point of view) > to use the words "mispronounced" and "misspelled". > > In my edition of Kittel, > supposed to be an AES reprint of the 1894 edition, > both spellings are mentionned on the page 1392 : > > "???????" [v?ra??si] is explained as being the same as "???????" [v?r??asi] > but some textual reference is given. > > "???????" [v?r??asi] appears slightly lower on the page > and has a longer entry, also containing textual references. > > The strategy seen in Kittel seems to be the contrary > of the strategy seen in the Madras Tamil Lexicon, > where ??????? [v?ra??ci] is the main entry. > (and there is a secondary entry ?????? [v?ranaci] > > Additionally, > unless I am mistaken > (which can very well happen, because I know almost nothing about > Kannada and rely on electronic transcoding tools), > A google search for those two forms shows that: > > "???????" [v?ra??si] occurs approximately 677 000 times on the internet > > "???????" [v?r??asi] occurs approximately 132 000 times on the internet > > The "incorrect" form seems to be 5 times more frequent than the > "correct" form. > > I am convinced that this means something, > at least concerning the speakers of some Modern Indian languages > because 677 000 "incorrect" forms cannot simply be ignored > (or wiped away from the realm of "linguistic facts"). > > They have a massive presence in the linguistic abilities of their users > (I am alluding here to what I understand to be the topic of Morris > Halle's 1985 article > "Speculations about the Representation of Words in Memory") > > Malayalam seems to have quite a different "habitus": > > We find, with Google, as of today (15th february 2010): > > 3 690 occurrences of ??????? [v?ra??si] > > 646 000 occurrences of ??????? [v?r??asi] > > This is quite different from the figures for Kannada!! > > What about other Indian modern languages? > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard > > (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot, > UMR7597: "Laboratoire d'Histoire des Th?ories Linguistiques") > > > Le 2/15/2010 3:31 PM, Herman Tull a ?crit : >> But, at least we can say it is a good thing that these words >> (mispronounced and misspelled as they are) have come into the general >> lexicon. >> >> By the way, I must admit to having more than once ordered a Paanini >> when I should have been asking for a Paniini; confusing a grammarian >> with a grilled turkey sandwich. I guess this goes both ways! (In >> fact, as a a result of my misadventures in pronunciation, I am now >> utterly terrified by having to order one of these sandwiches.) But, >> then, I also once asked for "bed bugs" rather than "curds" in my >> terribly broken Telegu. >> >> Herman Tull >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Dipak Bhattacharya" >> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 7:56 AM >> To: >> Subject: Re: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ >> >>> 15 02 10 >>> Kittel?s transliteration gives v?ran?si but the Kanna? word is >>> written ??????? that is v?r??asi. Could the given transliteration be >>> a printing error? >>> To the wrong pronunciations add Himalaya for Him?laya and Panini for >>> P??ini. But It is no use counting them, they are a legion. >>> Best for all >>> DB >>> >>> --- On Mon, 15/2/10, Jean-Luc Chevillard >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: Jean-Luc Chevillard >>> Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Date: Monday, 15 February, 2010, 4:59 PM >>> >>> >>> As a post-scriptum to my first remark, >>> I want to addd that I have just had a look at Kittel's >>> Kannada-English dictionary >>> >>> it contains on page 1392 >>> an entry "v?ra??si" >>> and the authority given is "Bp. 54, 65; 58, 34; My." >>> >>> The list abbreviations gives >>> >>> Bp. = "Basava pur??a. Bibliotheca Carn?taka, Mangalore, 1850" >>> >>> If as early as the 6th century, which is a date often given for the >>> Tamil /Ma?im?kalai /, we find the spelling v?ra??ci, >>> and if that spelling has remained the norm in Tamil >>> [See: >>> ] >>> >>> there must be a reason. >>> >>> It would be interesting to have additional data for other indian >>> languages >>> >>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Paris) >>> >>> >>> >>> Le 2/15/2010 10:43 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : >>>> I would be interested in having comments >>>> on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. >>>> >>>> See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) >>>> >>>> ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, situate between the >>>> rivers Vara?? and As?; ????. ??????????? ???????????? (???. 13, 3). >>>> >>>> See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. >>>> >>>> ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See ???????. (????. ??.) >>>> >>>> The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling v?ra??ci >>>> is the Ma?im?kalai >>>> and comes from the chapter that tells the story of ?????????. >>>> >>>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : >>>>> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry >>>>> on "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the >>>>> effect that, for the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and >>>>> "raamaayaNa," the third syllable in this name is the least >>>>> appropriate place to apply a stress accent. But I have been >>>>> struck over the years by the frequency with which many people I >>>>> respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress the >>>>> vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether >>>>> they might be following some local tradition unknown to me, >>>>> despite the official spelling of the name. Are they? Is there >>>>> any good reason to make the third "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >>>>> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >>>>> The University of Chicago >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it >>> NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/ >>> >> From Peter.Bisschop at ED.AC.UK Mon Feb 15 11:37:05 2010 From: Peter.Bisschop at ED.AC.UK (Peter Bisschop) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 11:37:05 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: <4B791757.4080308@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227088528.23782.8028536311855007042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A brief note on the history of the derivation of the name Vaaraa.nasii. While the name of the town is indeed commonly connected to the two rivers Vara.naa and Asi, earlier sources (in particular the original Skandapuraa.na) rather connect it to the name of the river Varaa.nasii (nowadays known as Vara.naa). See Skandapuraa.na Vol. IIA (The Vaaraa.nasii Cycle), edited by Hans Bakker and Harunaga Isaacson, Groningen 2004, p. 222. Peter Bisschop --- Dr Peter Bisschop Asian Studies University of Edinburgh 7/8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW Scotland, U.K. e-mail: Peter.Bisschop at ed.ac.uk phone: +(0)131 650 4174 http://www.asianstudies.ed.ac.uk/staff/bisschop.htm On 15 Feb 2010, at 09:43, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > I would be interested in having comments > on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. > > See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) > > ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, > situate between the rivers Vara?? and As?; ????. > ??????????? > ???????????? (???. 13, 3). > > See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. > > ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See > ???????. (????. ??.) > > The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling > v?ra??ci is the Ma?im?kalai > and comes from the chapter that tells the story of > ?????????. > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) > > > Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : >> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry >> on "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the >> effect that, for the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and >> "raamaayaNa," the third syllable in this name is the least >> appropriate place to apply a stress accent. But I have been >> struck over the years by the frequency with which many people I >> respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress the >> vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether >> they might be following some local tradition unknown to me, >> despite the official spelling of the name. Are they? Is there >> any good reason to make the third "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? >> >> --- >> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >> The University of Chicago >> > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Feb 15 19:37:14 2010 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 11:37:14 -0800 Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088601.23782.2436202836975799375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Europe, the names used abroad tend to be older, rather than new and altered! Obviously Cologne and Monaco are is closer to the original than K?ln and Munchen, etc. More interestingly, the English use the original Celtic name Ratisbon for German Regensburg, which comes from the later Roman name Castra Regina. And 's-Hertogenbosch may be a translation of Bois-le-Duc and not the other way round (for the duke in question was presumably French-speaking). I'd be surprised if there aren't such cases in India too. PK On Feb 15, 2010, at 10:50 AM, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > One should also keep in mind, in all these discussions about > ??????? (the only pronunciation I have ever heard in > Karnataka; note the short i at the end), ?????, > ???????, etc. etc., that old and famous cities tend to > acquire new or altered names in speech areas far away from where > those cities are. > > Europe is full of such examples. In Dutch, Wien becomes 'Wenen', > Paris becomes 'Parijs', Berlin is 'Berlijn'; K?ln becomes 'Keulen' > in Dutch and 'Cologne' in French and English. Dutch cities like > Arnhem and Nijmegen become 'Arnheim' and 'Nimwegen' in German, and > 's-Hertogenbosch and 's-Gravenhage become 'Bois-le-Duc' and 'The > Hague' in English. M?nchen becomes 'Munich' in English and 'Monaco' > in Italian (and the latest, Sanskrit name, which I would like to > publicize here, is Mun??anagara). > > The list goes on and on. The reasons for all these metamorphoses > are manifold, and differ from language to language: some reasons > are internal (general phonetic patterns of the language), some > historical (e.g., the British using French names for whatever is > just on the other side of the water). > > Compared to what Europeans have been doing on their continent (or > the British in India: ?r?ra?gapa??a?a > Seringapatam, > ??umpur > Egmore), I find the Indian variations on V?r??as? > quite modest. > > As for the variations in Kannada: I suspect that 'v?ra??si' is a > distorted form that may at first have been borrowed from Tamil, > since it is ?iva's city, and much, though not all, ?aiva lore came > to Karnataka from Tamilnadu (historical reason; note that the > references in the Kittel dictionary are from the Basavapur??a, a > ?aiva work; but the same text also contains 'v?r??asi', and > Kittel has also found 'vara?asi'); and at some later time, so I > imagine, it was realized that the proper pronunciation is > 'v?r??as?' (but Kannadigas always shorten the final ? in loan > words: internal reason), which is why I have never heard anything > else. > > RZ > > Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Department f?r Asienstudien - Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie > Universit?t M?nchen (i.e., Munich, Monaco, Mun??anagara) > Deutschland > Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 > Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Mon Feb 15 11:49:08 2010 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 11:49:08 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: <76E77AA6-F749-4A39-B58D-3D3B377394AE@helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <161227088530.23782.7585975993401514564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On pronunciation, could someone please include Parvati (pArvatI)and Nagini (nAginI)--though it's probably too late for the remaining Harry Potter films! And Ravana (rAvaNa), whose name is regularly mangled in retellings of the Ramayana. Thank you. Valerie At 11:22 am +0200 15/2/10, Klaus Karttunen wrote: >Hi, >This seems nice idea. Among common confusions, I >think, Budha/Buddha and s?astra/s?a?stra should >be added. >Best, > >Klaus Karttunen >Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies >Institute for Asian and African Studies >PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) >00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND >Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 >Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 >Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi > > > >On Feb 14, 2010, at 11:34 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >> "Common misconceptions and misnomers" >> >> After a chat with my colleague Thomas Kintaert yesterday, I've added a >> section to the FAQ with the above title. The current subsections are: >> >> >> - 1 Wrong >>translations >> - 1.1 >>a?rtava >> - 2 False >>friends >> - 3 Common >>errors >> - 3.1 How to pronounce Maha?bha?rata and >> >>Ra?ma?yana >> - 4 Common >>confusions >> - 4.1 Ka?li? and >> >>Kali >> - 4.2 Karma and >> >>Ka?ma >> >> >> But you can put what text or headings you like there. >> >> I thought this might encourage us to share our pet annoyances :-) >> >> Dominik >> From vbd203 at GOOGLEMAIL.COM Mon Feb 15 17:55:44 2010 From: vbd203 at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (victor davella) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 11:55:44 -0600 Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: <4B79843C.2050009@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088586.23782.15685991387076377212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Note the Telugu wikipedia page on ???? (???????). Although I can't make out everything it says, there is a discussion about the alternate name ??????? from "????", "?????." Brown only gives ??????? as ???? ??????? and the analysis *v?ra?-?si*. He says nothing of the spelling ??????? which may have been introduced into Telugu recently and in imitation of the northern name. In this case there doesn't seem to be a mispronunciation but the correct pronunciation of a different name which is perhaps also the case for the English pronunciation Victor D'Avella PhD Candidate University of Chicago SALC On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Gary Tubb wrote: > This is exactly the sort of thing I was wondering about when I brought up > the matter of the pronunciation of Varanasi. The data from Kannada is very > interesting, as is the contrast with Malayalam.. > > Velcheru Narayana Rao informs me that "in Telugu speech it is vaaranaasi. > (The third syllable long, and also the last vowel short.)" > > So it does appear that, unlike the words "Mahabharata" and "Ramayana," for > "Varanasi" there are strong, though regional, traditions supporting a second > pronunciation. > > --Gary. > > > Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair > Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations > The University of Chicago > > > > > Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > >> Dear Herman, >> Dear Professor Bhattacharya, >> >> I wonder whether it is a precise characterization >> (from a descriptive linguistics point of view) >> to use the words "mispronounced" and "misspelled". >> >> In my edition of Kittel, >> supposed to be an AES reprint of the 1894 edition, >> both spellings are mentionned on the page 1392 : >> >> "???????" [v?ra??si] is explained as being the same as "???????" >> [v?r??asi] >> but some textual reference is given. >> >> "???????" [v?r??asi] appears slightly lower on the page >> and has a longer entry, also containing textual references. >> >> The strategy seen in Kittel seems to be the contrary >> of the strategy seen in the Madras Tamil Lexicon, >> where ??????? [v?ra??ci] is the main entry. >> (and there is a secondary entry ?????? [v?ranaci] >> >> Additionally, >> unless I am mistaken >> (which can very well happen, because I know almost nothing about Kannada >> and rely on electronic transcoding tools), >> A google search for those two forms shows that: >> >> "???????" [v?ra??si] occurs approximately 677 000 times on the internet >> >> "???????" [v?r??asi] occurs approximately 132 000 times on the internet >> >> The "incorrect" form seems to be 5 times more frequent than the "correct" >> form. >> >> I am convinced that this means something, >> at least concerning the speakers of some Modern Indian languages >> because 677 000 "incorrect" forms cannot simply be ignored >> (or wiped away from the realm of "linguistic facts"). >> >> They have a massive presence in the linguistic abilities of their users >> (I am alluding here to what I understand to be the topic of Morris Halle's >> 1985 article >> "Speculations about the Representation of Words in Memory") >> >> Malayalam seems to have quite a different "habitus": >> >> We find, with Google, as of today (15th february 2010): >> >> 3 690 occurrences of ??????? [v?ra??si] >> >> 646 000 occurrences of ??????? [v?r??asi] >> >> This is quite different from the figures for Kannada!! >> >> What about other Indian modern languages? >> >> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard >> >> (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot, >> UMR7597: "Laboratoire d'Histoire des Th?ories Linguistiques") >> >> >> Le 2/15/2010 3:31 PM, Herman Tull a ?crit : >> >>> But, at least we can say it is a good thing that these words >>> (mispronounced and misspelled as they are) have come into the general >>> lexicon. >>> >>> By the way, I must admit to having more than once ordered a Paanini when >>> I should have been asking for a Paniini; confusing a grammarian with a >>> grilled turkey sandwich. I guess this goes both ways! (In fact, as a a >>> result of my misadventures in pronunciation, I am now utterly terrified by >>> having to order one of these sandwiches.) But, then, I also once asked for >>> "bed bugs" rather than "curds" in my terribly broken Telegu. >>> >>> Herman Tull >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Dipak Bhattacharya" >>> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 7:56 AM >>> To: >>> Subject: Re: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ >>> >>> 15 02 10 >>>> Kittel?s transliteration gives v?ran?si but the Kanna? word is written >>>> ??????? that is v?r??asi. Could the given transliteration be a printing >>>> error? >>>> To the wrong pronunciations add Himalaya for Him?laya and Panini for >>>> P??ini. But It is no use counting them, they are a legion. >>>> Best for all >>>> DB >>>> >>>> --- On Mon, 15/2/10, Jean-Luc Chevillard < >>>> jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Jean-Luc Chevillard >>>> Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ >>>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>>> Date: Monday, 15 February, 2010, 4:59 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> As a post-scriptum to my first remark, >>>> I want to addd that I have just had a look at Kittel's Kannada-English >>>> dictionary >>>> >>>> it contains on page 1392 >>>> an entry "v?ra??si" >>>> and the authority given is "Bp. 54, 65; 58, 34; My." >>>> >>>> The list abbreviations gives >>>> >>>> Bp. = "Basava pur??a. Bibliotheca Carn?taka, Mangalore, 1850" >>>> >>>> If as early as the 6th century, which is a date often given for the >>>> Tamil /Ma?im?kalai /, we find the spelling v?ra??ci, >>>> and if that spelling has remained the norm in Tamil >>>> [See: < >>>> http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AE%B5%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%A3%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%9A%E0%AE%BF>] >>>> >>>> there must be a reason. >>>> >>>> It would be interesting to have additional data for other indian >>>> languages >>>> >>>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Paris) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 2/15/2010 10:43 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : >>>> >>>>> I would be interested in having comments >>>>> on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. >>>>> >>>>> See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) >>>>> >>>>> ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, situate between the rivers >>>>> Vara?? and As?; ????. ??????????? ???????????? (???. 13, 3). >>>>> >>>>> See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. >>>>> >>>>> ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See ???????. (????. ??.) >>>>> >>>>> The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling v?ra??ci is >>>>> the Ma?im?kalai >>>>> and comes from the chapter that tells the story of ?????????. >>>>> >>>>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : >>>>> >>>>>> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry on >>>>>> "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the effect that, for >>>>>> the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and "raamaayaNa," the third >>>>>> syllable in this name is the least appropriate place to apply a stress >>>>>> accent. But I have been struck over the years by the frequency with which >>>>>> many people I respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress >>>>>> the vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether they >>>>>> might be following some local tradition unknown to me, despite the official >>>>>> spelling of the name. Are they? Is there any good reason to make the third >>>>>> "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >>>>>> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >>>>>> The University of Chicago >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! >>>> http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/ >>>> >>>> >>> From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Feb 15 17:21:41 2010 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 12:21:41 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088577.23782.16530373370644205776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My spell check programme habitually changes Salman Rushdie to 'salmon residue'. So it isn't just the pronunciation that goes haywire... Stella -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 15-Feb-10, at 11:45 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > God yes. And the author, Salman Rooshdie? > > (Has anyone heard him pronounce his own name? Not that that would be > convincing evidence to an indologist :-) > > Dominik > > On 15 February 2010 16:24, Frances Pritchett wrote: > >> And moving on from VaraNAAsi, let's not forget that other great >> cultural >> center, the POON-jab. >> >> Fran >> >> > From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Mon Feb 15 11:29:46 2010 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 12:29:46 +0100 Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: <4B791757.4080308@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227088524.23782.18218317759647386060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As a post-scriptum to my first remark, I want to addd that I have just had a look at Kittel's Kannada-English dictionary it contains on page 1392 an entry "v?ra??si" and the authority given is "Bp. 54, 65; 58, 34; My." The list abbreviations gives Bp. = "Basava pur??a. Bibliotheca Carn?taka, Mangalore, 1850" If as early as the 6th century, which is a date often given for the Tamil /Ma?im?kalai /, we find the spelling v?ra??ci, and if that spelling has remained the norm in Tamil [See: ] there must be a reason. It would be interesting to have additional data for other indian languages -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Paris) Le 2/15/2010 10:43 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : > I would be interested in having comments > on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. > > See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) > > ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, situate between the rivers > Vara?? and As?; ????. ??????????? ???????????? (???. 13, 3). > > See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. > > ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See ???????. (????. ??.) > > The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling v?ra??ci is > the Ma?im?kalai > and comes from the chapter that tells the story of ?????????. > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) > > > Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : >> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry on >> "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the effect >> that, for the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and >> "raamaayaNa," the third syllable in this name is the least >> appropriate place to apply a stress accent. But I have been struck >> over the years by the frequency with which many people I respect as >> experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress the vowel in the >> third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether they might be >> following some local tradition unknown to me, despite the official >> spelling of the name. Are they? Is there any good reason to make >> the third "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? >> >> --- >> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >> The University of Chicago >> > From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Feb 15 18:43:15 2010 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 12:43:15 -0600 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088591.23782.12034162074139777264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I love it! My spell-check used to suggest replacing tantra, tantric, etc., with "tantrum", which somehow seemed right... >My spell check programme habitually changes Salman Rushdie to 'salmon >residue'. So it isn't just the pronunciation that goes haywire... Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Mon Feb 15 12:04:24 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 13:04:24 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088533.23782.10382691560167347395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It's down to you, Valerie (and everyone). It's no use posting things here in the hope that someone else will add it to the FAQ. Dominik On 15 February 2010 12:49, Valerie J Roebuck wrote: > On pronunciation, could someone please include Parvati (pArvatI)and Nagini > (nAginI)--though it's probably too late for the remaining Harry Potter > films! And Ravana (rAvaNa), whose name is regularly mangled in retellings of > the Ramayana. > > Thank you. > > Valerie > > > At 11:22 am +0200 15/2/10, Klaus Karttunen wrote: > >> Hi, >> This seems nice idea. Among common confusions, I think, Budha/Buddha and >> s?astra/s?a?stra should be added. >> >> Best, >> >> Klaus Karttunen >> Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies >> Institute for Asian and African Studies >> PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) >> 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND >> Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 >> Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 >> Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi >> >> >> >> On Feb 14, 2010, at 11:34 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >> >> "Common misconceptions and misnomers" >>> >>> After a chat with my colleague Thomas Kintaert yesterday, I've added a >>> section to the FAQ with the above title. The current subsections are: >>> >>> >>> - 1 Wrong translations< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Wrong_translations >>> > >>> - 1.1 a?rtava< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#.C4.81rtava >>> > >>> >>> - 2 False friends< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#False_friends >>> > >>> - 3 Common errors< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Common_errors >>> > >>> - 3.1 How to pronounce Maha?bha?rata and >>> >>> Ra?ma?yana< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#How_to_pronounce_Mah.C4.81bh.C4.81rata_and_R.C4.81m.C4.81yana >>> > >>> >>> - 4 Common confusions< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Common_confusions >>> > >>> - 4.1 Ka?li? and >>> >>> >>> Kali< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#K.C4.81l.C4.AB_and_Kali >>> > >>> - 4.2 Karma and >>> >>> Ka?ma< >>> http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Karma_and_K.C4.81ma >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> But you can put what text or headings you like there. >>> >>> I thought this might encourage us to share our pet annoyances :-) >>> >>> Dominik >>> >>> From greg.bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU Mon Feb 15 04:56:48 2010 From: greg.bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Greg Bailey) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 15:56:48 +1100 Subject: King's College Palaeography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088500.23782.5506384532383095903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, This is appalling and it is not just an attack on the individual but on the humanities in general, if not of social-democratic values as well. I read an article in the Melbourne Age today quoting something from the Guardian to the effect that thousands of jobs are to be lost in British universities. Is that true? If so it will percolate elsewhere in the Anglo-Saxon world, if not outside of it. Cheers, Greg Bailey On 15/02/10 3:45 PM, "Dominik Wujastyk" wrote: > Dear colleague, > > News is circulating that the Chair of Palaeography at King's College London, > David Ganz, is about to lose his job since KCL is in the process of > eradicating 22 jobs in a manner that appears crude and inefficient. > > Teaching staff at KCL have raised the idea of college-wide salary reductions > as a way of saving actual jobs and avoiding cuts like this, but at a meeting > last week the college management dismissed such a collegial approach on the > grounds that it was "not progressive". > > Here is part of the text from the Facebook page (see link below for full > information): > > King?s College London is undertaking what they call ?strategic >> disinvestment? and have informed our colleague, David Ganz, on Tuesday that >> funding for the Chair in Palaeography will cease from 31 August this year, >> when David will be out of a job. This is part of a wider context whereby all >> academic staff in the School of Arts and Humanities at King?s have to >> re-apply for their own jobs before the 1st March. They think this the ?most >> humane way? of losing 22 academic posts. >> > > >> KCL's Chair is the only established chair in Palaeography in the UK (held >> by our late members Julian Brown and Tilly de la Mare). I am, naturally, >> writing on behalf of the Committee to express dismay at the loss of the >> Chair but the more people who write in protest the better. >> > > >> The person to write to is: Professor Rick Trainor, The Principal, King?s >> College, The Strand, London WC2R 2LS and copy to Professor Jan Palmowski, >> Head of the School of Arts and Humanities." >> > > Fuller details are available at: > > - http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=303202385890&ref=share > > And the link below leads to an easy online system for signing a petition > about this matter: > > - http://www.petitiononline.com/spkcl10/ > > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > University of Vienna From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Mon Feb 15 21:45:33 2010 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (george thompson) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 16:45:33 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088604.23782.6619829757428103072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, I have avoided this discussion of mispronunciations until now, because I find that such discussions of student bloopers and the ignorant masses who can't pronounce Sanskrit words properly are generally unkind and gratuitous, and in deed, as Matthew Kapstein rightly suggests, "a bit too precious." But it is good to see that the discussion has moved in a more productive direction with the recents posts on southern pronunciations, etc. I have a different point to make, related to Dipak Bhattacharya's comments about misspellings and our having to surrender to book agents about using "Panini" instead of "P??ini." I don't think that we should surrender to our book agents. When working with my editors at Farrar Straus & Giroux about my recent Gita translation, I insisted on using standard scholarly diacritics throughout. I had to fight very hard to persuade them that the diacritics would be helpful rather than intimidating, and I did succeed in persuading them that this was so. Of course, I had to write a note about the pronunciation of Sanskrit for that book, but it persuaded this commercial, non-scholarly, publisher to use standard diacritics in my book. A small victory for diacritics, I suppose.. Obviously, non-Sanskritists like Richard Hayes's well-meaning but clueless Fransiscan brother need our help. I have offered him and others like him [e.g., yoga teachers in the US] some help in my Gita translation. At a very minimum we need to help these people to distinguish between long and short vowels in Sanskrit: 'Mahaabhaarata' vs the utterly confusing 'Mahabharata,' which makes no distinction between long and short vowels at all, even though this is not a very difficult distinction to make, even for quite illiterate American students. After that point, we can just refer to the character Apu in the "Simpsons" TV series, who uses retroflexes to pronounce numerous American words. If we can make these simple distinctions, then the pronunciation of Sanskrit will not be so difficult for the unwashed masses of those who don't know Sanskrit. Really, it doesn't take a lot of effort to teach non-Sanskritists how to pronounce Sanskrit reasonably well. I've been doing it for years. It has put food on the plates of my children, and they are now self-sustaining adults, for the most part. I would also like to complain about a decision that was made by the editors of the Clay Sanskrit Library. This is a great and valuable collection of translations, but I think that they made a bad decision when they chose to ignore diacritic marks in their translatons. I agree with their decision to resolve & simpify sandhi issues, so that word-boundaries would be easily recognizable for the beginning student, but to completely abandon accurate diacritical marks in their translations, I think, has been a big mistake. What this leads to in the intended audience is a general uncertainty about how to pronounce anything in Sanskrit. Not a good move from our Sanskrit elite. At least in my view. George Thompson From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Mon Feb 15 15:47:02 2010 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 16:47:02 +0100 Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088560.23782.5923499394090221699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Herman, Dear Professor Bhattacharya, I wonder whether it is a precise characterization (from a descriptive linguistics point of view) to use the words "mispronounced" and "misspelled". In my edition of Kittel, supposed to be an AES reprint of the 1894 edition, both spellings are mentionned on the page 1392 : "???????" [v?ra??si] is explained as being the same as "???????" [v?r??asi] but some textual reference is given. "???????" [v?r??asi] appears slightly lower on the page and has a longer entry, also containing textual references. The strategy seen in Kittel seems to be the contrary of the strategy seen in the Madras Tamil Lexicon, where ??????? [v?ra??ci] is the main entry. (and there is a secondary entry ?????? [v?ranaci] Additionally, unless I am mistaken (which can very well happen, because I know almost nothing about Kannada and rely on electronic transcoding tools), A google search for those two forms shows that: "???????" [v?ra??si] occurs approximately 677 000 times on the internet "???????" [v?r??asi] occurs approximately 132 000 times on the internet The "incorrect" form seems to be 5 times more frequent than the "correct" form. I am convinced that this means something, at least concerning the speakers of some Modern Indian languages because 677 000 "incorrect" forms cannot simply be ignored (or wiped away from the realm of "linguistic facts"). They have a massive presence in the linguistic abilities of their users (I am alluding here to what I understand to be the topic of Morris Halle's 1985 article "Speculations about the Representation of Words in Memory") Malayalam seems to have quite a different "habitus": We find, with Google, as of today (15th february 2010): 3 690 occurrences of ??????? [v?ra??si] 646 000 occurrences of ??????? [v?r??asi] This is quite different from the figures for Kannada!! What about other Indian modern languages? -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot, UMR7597: "Laboratoire d'Histoire des Th?ories Linguistiques") Le 2/15/2010 3:31 PM, Herman Tull a ?crit : > But, at least we can say it is a good thing that these words > (mispronounced and misspelled as they are) have come into the general > lexicon. > > By the way, I must admit to having more than once ordered a Paanini > when I should have been asking for a Paniini; confusing a grammarian > with a grilled turkey sandwich. I guess this goes both ways! (In > fact, as a a result of my misadventures in pronunciation, I am now > utterly terrified by having to order one of these sandwiches.) But, > then, I also once asked for "bed bugs" rather than "curds" in my > terribly broken Telegu. > > Herman Tull > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Dipak Bhattacharya" > Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 7:56 AM > To: > Subject: Re: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ > >> 15 02 10 >> Kittel?s transliteration gives v?ran?si but the Kanna? word is >> written ??????? that is v?r??asi. Could the given transliteration be a >> printing error? >> To the wrong pronunciations add Himalaya for Him?laya and Panini for >> P??ini. But It is no use counting them, they are a legion. >> Best for all >> DB >> >> --- On Mon, 15/2/10, Jean-Luc Chevillard >> wrote: >> >> >> From: Jean-Luc Chevillard >> Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Monday, 15 February, 2010, 4:59 PM >> >> >> As a post-scriptum to my first remark, >> I want to addd that I have just had a look at Kittel's >> Kannada-English dictionary >> >> it contains on page 1392 >> an entry "v?ra??si" >> and the authority given is "Bp. 54, 65; 58, 34; My." >> >> The list abbreviations gives >> >> Bp. = "Basava pur??a. Bibliotheca Carn?taka, Mangalore, 1850" >> >> If as early as the 6th century, which is a date often given for the >> Tamil /Ma?im?kalai /, we find the spelling v?ra??ci, >> and if that spelling has remained the norm in Tamil >> [See: >> ] >> >> there must be a reason. >> >> It would be interesting to have additional data for other indian >> languages >> >> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Paris) >> >> >> >> Le 2/15/2010 10:43 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : >>> I would be interested in having comments >>> on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. >>> >>> See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) >>> >>> ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, situate between the rivers >>> Vara?? and As?; ????. ??????????? ???????????? (???. 13, 3). >>> >>> See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. >>> >>> ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See ???????. (????. ??.) >>> >>> The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling v?ra??ci >>> is the Ma?im?kalai >>> and comes from the chapter that tells the story of ?????????. >>> >>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >>> >>> >>> Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : >>>> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry >>>> on "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the >>>> effect that, for the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and >>>> "raamaayaNa," the third syllable in this name is the least >>>> appropriate place to apply a stress accent. But I have been struck >>>> over the years by the frequency with which many people I respect as >>>> experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress the vowel in the >>>> third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether they might be >>>> following some local tradition unknown to me, despite the official >>>> spelling of the name. Are they? Is there any good reason to make >>>> the third "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? >>>> >>>> --- >>>> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >>>> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >>>> The University of Chicago >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it >> NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/ >> > From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Mon Feb 15 16:45:54 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 17:45:54 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <4B79672C.1040509@columbia.edu> Message-ID: <161227088563.23782.3471010711026314024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> God yes. And the author, Salman Rooshdie? (Has anyone heard him pronounce his own name? Not that that would be convincing evidence to an indologist :-) Dominik On 15 February 2010 16:24, Frances Pritchett wrote: > And moving on from VaraNAAsi, let's not forget that other great cultural > center, the POON-jab. > > Fran > > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Feb 15 12:56:53 2010 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 18:26:53 +0530 Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: <4B79302A.9070308@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227088538.23782.65903808846255738.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 15 02 10 Kittel?s transliteration gives v?ran?si but the Kanna? word is written ??????? that is v?r??asi. Could the given transliteration be a printing error? To the wrong pronunciations add Himalaya for Him?laya and Panini for P??ini. But It is no use counting them, they are a legion. Best for all DB --- On Mon, 15/2/10, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: From: Jean-Luc Chevillard Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 15 February, 2010, 4:59 PM As a post-scriptum to my first remark, I want to addd that I have just had a look at Kittel's Kannada-English dictionary it contains on page 1392 an entry "v?ra??si" and the authority given is "Bp. 54, 65; 58, 34; My." The list abbreviations gives Bp. = "Basava pur??a. Bibliotheca Carn?taka, Mangalore, 1850" If as early as the 6th century, which is a date often given for the Tamil /Ma?im?kalai /, we find the spelling v?ra??ci, and if that spelling has remained the norm in Tamil [See: ] there must be a reason. It would be interesting to have additional data for other indian languages -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Paris) Le 2/15/2010 10:43 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : > I would be interested in having comments > on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. > > See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) > > ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, situate between the rivers Vara?? and As?; ????. ??????????? ???????????? (???. 13, 3). > > See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. > > ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See ???????. (????. ??.) > > The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling v?ra??ci is the Ma?im?kalai > and comes from the chapter that tells the story of ?????????. > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) > > > Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : >> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry on "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the effect that, for the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and "raamaayaNa," the third syllable in this name is the least appropriate place to apply a stress accent.? But I have been struck over the years by the frequency with which many people I respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress the vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether they might be following some local tradition unknown to me, despite the official spelling of the name.? Are they?? Is there any good reason to make the third "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? >> >> --- >> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >> The University of Chicago >> > Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/ From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Mon Feb 15 17:34:23 2010 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 18:34:23 +0100 Subject: "Remarqueurs" (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <20100215105201.CJS79264@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088583.23782.16524684585367194998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cher Matthew, de l'EPHE (?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes), il y a bien s?r quelque chose de surr?aliste dans cette discussion, qui semble avoir comme pr?suppos? que le "Eternal Sanskrit" est plus r?el que le "Real sanskrit" ("n?o-sanskrit") qui a ?t? depuis de nombreux si?cles la "father tongue" de gens qui avaient des "mother tongues" tr?s diverses (Tamoul, Malayalam, Kannada, Bhojpuri, etc.). Mais d'un autre c?t?, avoir sur un site Web universitaire un enregistrement "spontan?" [et P?RENNE] de r?actions aux prononciations que l'on trouve aux XX? et XXI? si?cles est tr?s pr?cieux pour un linguiste d'aujourd'hui et le sera encore plus pour un linguiste du futur ...) Cela peut se comparer (en anticipant), avec la valeur que nous, historiens de la linguistique (en France), attribuons aujourd'hui aux remarques faites par les "Remarqueurs" sur la langue fran?aise du XVIe si?cle ? nos jours. Il ne faut pas inhiber les r?actions spontan?es! Amicalement -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot Paris7, UMR7597 [HTL]) Le 2/15/2010 5:52 PM, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU a ?crit : > Isn't every one being a bit too precious about all this? > What do French speakers do with English names? > What does everyone do with Chinese? > How many of us get our Arabic quite right? > Not to mention Thai, Tibetan or Khmer... > > The idea that one is going to launch a campaign to > rectify the massacre of Indian names and terms in > English is plain silly when you think about it. > > Matthew > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Mon Feb 15 18:42:46 2010 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 18:42:46 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088594.23782.10345407780021528277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't seem to be able to access the site to do this. Valerie At 1:04 pm +0100 15/2/10, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >It's down to you, Valerie (and everyone). It's no use posting things here >in the hope that someone else will add it to the FAQ. > >Dominik > >On 15 February 2010 12:49, Valerie J Roebuck >wrote: > >> On pronunciation, could someone please include Parvati (pArvatI)and Nagini >> (nAginI)--though it's probably too late for the remaining Harry Potter >> films! And Ravana (rAvaNa), whose name is regularly mangled in retellings of >> the Ramayana. >> >> Thank you. >> >> Valerie >> >> >> At 11:22 am +0200 15/2/10, Klaus Karttunen wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> This seems nice idea. Among common confusions, I think, Budha/Buddha and >>> s?astra/s?a?stra should be added. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Klaus Karttunen >>> Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies >>> Institute for Asian and African Studies >>> PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) >>> 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND >>> Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 >>> Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 >>> Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 14, 2010, at 11:34 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >>> >>> "Common misconceptions and misnomers" >>>> >>>> After a chat with my colleague Thomas Kintaert yesterday, I've added a >>>> section to the FAQ with the above title. The current subsections are: >>>> >>>> >>>> - 1 Wrong translations< >>>> >>>>http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Wrong_translations >>>> > >>>> - 1.1 a?rtava< >>>> >>>>http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#.C4.81rtava >>>> > >>>> >>>> - 2 False friends< >>>> >>>>http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#False_friends >>>> > >>>> - 3 Common errors< >>>> >>>>http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Common_errors >>>> > >>>> - 3.1 How to pronounce Maha?bha?rata and >>>> >>>> Ra?ma?yana< >>>> >>>>http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#How_to_pronounce_Mah.C4.81bh.C4.81rata_and_R.C4.81m.C4.81yana >>>> > >>>> >>>> - 4 Common confusions< >>>> >>>>http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Common_confusions >>>> > >>>> - 4.1 Ka?li? and >>>> >>>> >>>> Kali< >>>> >>>>http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#K.C4.81l.C4.AB_and_Kali >>>> > >>>> - 4.2 Karma and >>>> >>>> Ka?ma< >>>> >>>>http://faq.indology.info/index.php/Common_misconceptions_and_misnomers#Karma_and_K.C4.81ma >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But you can put what text or headings you like there. >>>> >>>> I thought this might encourage us to share our pet annoyances :-) >>>> >>>> Dominik >>>> >>>> From zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE Mon Feb 15 18:50:48 2010 From: zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 19:50:48 +0100 Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088596.23782.9625833278823028437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One should also keep in mind, in all these discussions about ??????? (the only pronunciation I have ever heard in Karnataka; note the short i at the end), ?????, ???????, etc. etc., that old and famous cities tend to acquire new or altered names in speech areas far away from where those cities are. Europe is full of such examples. In Dutch, Wien becomes 'Wenen', Paris becomes 'Parijs', Berlin is 'Berlijn'; K?ln becomes 'Keulen' in Dutch and 'Cologne' in French and English. Dutch cities like Arnhem and Nijmegen become 'Arnheim' and 'Nimwegen' in German, and 's- Hertogenbosch and 's-Gravenhage become 'Bois-le-Duc' and 'The Hague' in English. M?nchen becomes 'Munich' in English and 'Monaco' in Italian (and the latest, Sanskrit name, which I would like to publicize here, is Mun??anagara). The list goes on and on. The reasons for all these metamorphoses are manifold, and differ from language to language: some reasons are internal (general phonetic patterns of the language), some historical (e.g., the British using French names for whatever is just on the other side of the water). Compared to what Europeans have been doing on their continent (or the British in India: ?r?ra?gapa??a?a > Seringapatam, ??umpur > Egmore), I find the Indian variations on V?r??as? quite modest. As for the variations in Kannada: I suspect that 'v?ra??si' is a distorted form that may at first have been borrowed from Tamil, since it is ?iva's city, and much, though not all, ?aiva lore came to Karnataka from Tamilnadu (historical reason; note that the references in the Kittel dictionary are from the Basavapur??a, a ?aiva work; but the same text also contains 'v?r??asi', and Kittel has also found 'vara?asi'); and at some later time, so I imagine, it was realized that the proper pronunciation is 'v?r??as?' (but Kannadigas always shorten the final ? in loan words: internal reason), which is why I have never heard anything else. RZ Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Department f?r Asienstudien - Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Universit?t M?nchen (i.e., Munich, Monaco, Mun??anagara) Deutschland Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Mon Feb 15 19:00:48 2010 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 20:00:48 +0100 Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: <4B79843C.2050009@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088599.23782.5319344689546059611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Gary, the data added by Velcheru Narayana Rao is quite interesting. Apparently, we have inside the MEMORY PATTERNS of speakers of Kannada, Telugu and Tamil a dominant metrical pattern for the name Benares which is: "LONG SHORT LONG" whereas the dominant metrical pattern for Malayalam is: "LONG LONG SHORT" It would be interesting to find out whether the vectors (the people who inoculated) the Benares shaiva supremacy notion into Tamil Nadu were people whose (real) mother tongue did not have the distinction between long and short. What about other living Indian languages? Cheers -- Jean-Luc (Paris) Le 2/15/2010 6:28 PM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : > This is exactly the sort of thing I was wondering about when I brought > up the matter of the pronunciation of Varanasi. The data from Kannada > is very interesting, as is the contrast with Malayalam.. > > Velcheru Narayana Rao informs me that "in Telugu speech it is > vaaranaasi. (The third syllable long, and also the last vowel short.)" > > So it does appear that, unlike the words "Mahabharata" and "Ramayana," > for "Varanasi" there are strong, though regional, traditions > supporting a second pronunciation. > > --Gary. > > Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair > Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations > The University of Chicago > > > > > Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: >> Dear Herman, >> Dear Professor Bhattacharya, >> >> I wonder whether it is a precise characterization >> (from a descriptive linguistics point of view) >> to use the words "mispronounced" and "misspelled". >> >> In my edition of Kittel, >> supposed to be an AES reprint of the 1894 edition, >> both spellings are mentionned on the page 1392 : >> >> "???????" [v?ra??si] is explained as being the same as "???????" >> [v?r??asi] >> but some textual reference is given. >> >> "???????" [v?r??asi] appears slightly lower on the page >> and has a longer entry, also containing textual references. >> >> The strategy seen in Kittel seems to be the contrary >> of the strategy seen in the Madras Tamil Lexicon, >> where ??????? [v?ra??ci] is the main entry. >> (and there is a secondary entry ?????? [v?ranaci] >> >> Additionally, >> unless I am mistaken >> (which can very well happen, because I know almost nothing about >> Kannada and rely on electronic transcoding tools), >> A google search for those two forms shows that: >> >> "???????" [v?ra??si] occurs approximately 677 000 times on the internet >> >> "???????" [v?r??asi] occurs approximately 132 000 times on the internet >> >> The "incorrect" form seems to be 5 times more frequent than the >> "correct" form. >> >> I am convinced that this means something, >> at least concerning the speakers of some Modern Indian languages >> because 677 000 "incorrect" forms cannot simply be ignored >> (or wiped away from the realm of "linguistic facts"). >> >> They have a massive presence in the linguistic abilities of their users >> (I am alluding here to what I understand to be the topic of Morris >> Halle's 1985 article >> "Speculations about the Representation of Words in Memory") >> >> Malayalam seems to have quite a different "habitus": >> >> We find, with Google, as of today (15th february 2010): >> >> 3 690 occurrences of ??????? [v?ra??si] >> >> 646 000 occurrences of ??????? [v?r??asi] >> >> This is quite different from the figures for Kannada!! >> >> What about other Indian modern languages? >> >> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard >> >> (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot, >> UMR7597: "Laboratoire d'Histoire des Th?ories Linguistiques") >> >> >> Le 2/15/2010 3:31 PM, Herman Tull a ?crit : >>> But, at least we can say it is a good thing that these words >>> (mispronounced and misspelled as they are) have come into the >>> general lexicon. >>> >>> By the way, I must admit to having more than once ordered a Paanini >>> when I should have been asking for a Paniini; confusing a grammarian >>> with a grilled turkey sandwich. I guess this goes both ways! (In >>> fact, as a a result of my misadventures in pronunciation, I am now >>> utterly terrified by having to order one of these sandwiches.) But, >>> then, I also once asked for "bed bugs" rather than "curds" in my >>> terribly broken Telegu. >>> >>> Herman Tull >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Dipak Bhattacharya" >>> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 7:56 AM >>> To: >>> Subject: Re: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ >>> >>>> 15 02 10 >>>> Kittel?s transliteration gives v?ran?si but the Kanna? word is >>>> written ??????? that is v?r??asi. Could the given transliteration be >>>> a printing error? >>>> To the wrong pronunciations add Himalaya for Him?laya and Panini >>>> for P??ini. But It is no use counting them, they are a legion. >>>> Best for all >>>> DB >>>> >>>> --- On Mon, 15/2/10, Jean-Luc Chevillard >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Jean-Luc Chevillard >>>> Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ >>>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>>> Date: Monday, 15 February, 2010, 4:59 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> As a post-scriptum to my first remark, >>>> I want to addd that I have just had a look at Kittel's >>>> Kannada-English dictionary >>>> >>>> it contains on page 1392 >>>> an entry "v?ra??si" >>>> and the authority given is "Bp. 54, 65; 58, 34; My." >>>> >>>> The list abbreviations gives >>>> >>>> Bp. = "Basava pur??a. Bibliotheca Carn?taka, Mangalore, 1850" >>>> >>>> If as early as the 6th century, which is a date often given for the >>>> Tamil /Ma?im?kalai /, we find the spelling v?ra??ci, >>>> and if that spelling has remained the norm in Tamil >>>> [See: >>>> ] >>>> >>>> there must be a reason. >>>> >>>> It would be interesting to have additional data for other indian >>>> languages >>>> >>>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Paris) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 2/15/2010 10:43 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : >>>>> I would be interested in having comments >>>>> on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. >>>>> >>>>> See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) >>>>> >>>>> ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, situate between the >>>>> rivers Vara?? and As?; ????. ??????????? ???????????? (???. 13, 3). >>>>> >>>>> See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. >>>>> >>>>> ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See ???????. (????. ??.) >>>>> >>>>> The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling >>>>> v?ra??ci is the Ma?im?kalai >>>>> and comes from the chapter that tells the story of ?????????. >>>>> >>>>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : >>>>>> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an >>>>>> entry on "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to >>>>>> the effect that, for the same reasons as given for >>>>>> "mahaabhaarata" and "raamaayaNa," the third syllable in this name >>>>>> is the least appropriate place to apply a stress accent. But I >>>>>> have been struck over the years by the frequency with which many >>>>>> people I respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and >>>>>> stress the vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder >>>>>> whether they might be following some local tradition unknown to >>>>>> me, despite the official spelling of the name. Are they? Is >>>>>> there any good reason to make the third "a" vowel in "Varanasi" >>>>>> long? >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >>>>>> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >>>>>> The University of Chicago >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it >>>> NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/ >>>> >>> > From palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Feb 16 02:34:54 2010 From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 20:34:54 -0600 Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: <4B79302A.9070308@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227088609.23782.8381758973518494861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The earliest version of the name we come across in Tamil is v?ra?av?ci in Kalittokai 24.13 of the Classical Tamil literature. There are places called v?ra?av?ci in today's Tamil Nadu too. Regards, Palaniappan On Feb 15, 2010, at 5:29 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > As a post-scriptum to my first remark, > I want to addd that I have just had a look at Kittel's Kannada-English dictionary > > it contains on page 1392 > an entry "v?ra??si" > and the authority given is "Bp. 54, 65; 58, 34; My." > > The list abbreviations gives > > Bp. = "Basava pur??a. Bibliotheca Carn?taka, Mangalore, 1850" > > If as early as the 6th century, which is a date often given for the Tamil /Ma?im?kalai /, we find the spelling v?ra??ci, > and if that spelling has remained the norm in Tamil > [See: ] > there must be a reason. > > It would be interesting to have additional data for other indian languages > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Paris) > > > > Le 2/15/2010 10:43 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : >> I would be interested in having comments >> on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. >> >> See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) >> >> ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, situate between the rivers Vara?? and As?; ????. ??????????? ???????????? (???. 13, 3). >> >> See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. >> >> ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See ???????. (????. ??.) >> >> The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling v?ra??ci is the Ma?im?kalai >> and comes from the chapter that tells the story of ?????????. >> >> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >> >> >> Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : >>> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry on "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the effect that, for the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and "raamaayaNa," the third syllable in this name is the least appropriate place to apply a stress accent. But I have been struck over the years by the frequency with which many people I respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress the vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether they might be following some local tradition unknown to me, despite the official spelling of the name. Are they? Is there any good reason to make the third "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? >>> >>> --- >>> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >>> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >>> The University of Chicago >>> >> From palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Feb 16 02:45:45 2010 From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 20:45:45 -0600 Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: <4B79302A.9070308@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227088612.23782.4538527371205031431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, the reference is really Kalittokai 60.13. The reference 24.13 is with respect to Ku?i?cikkali. Palaniappan On Feb 15, 2010, at 5:29 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > As a post-scriptum to my first remark, > I want to addd that I have just had a look at Kittel's Kannada-English dictionary > > it contains on page 1392 > an entry "v?ra??si" > and the authority given is "Bp. 54, 65; 58, 34; My." > > The list abbreviations gives > > Bp. = "Basava pur??a. Bibliotheca Carn?taka, Mangalore, 1850" > > If as early as the 6th century, which is a date often given for the Tamil /Ma?im?kalai /, we find the spelling v?ra??ci, > and if that spelling has remained the norm in Tamil > [See: ] > there must be a reason. > > It would be interesting to have additional data for other indian languages > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Paris) > > > > Le 2/15/2010 10:43 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : >> I would be interested in having comments >> on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. >> >> See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) >> >> ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, situate between the rivers Vara?? and As?; ????. ??????????? ???????????? (???. 13, 3). >> >> See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. >> >> ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See ???????. (????. ??.) >> >> The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling v?ra??ci is the Ma?im?kalai >> and comes from the chapter that tells the story of ?????????. >> >> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >> >> >> Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : >>> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry on "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the effect that, for the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and "raamaayaNa," the third syllable in this name is the least appropriate place to apply a stress accent. But I have been struck over the years by the frequency with which many people I respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress the vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether they might be following some local tradition unknown to me, despite the official spelling of the name. Are they? Is there any good reason to make the third "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? >>> >>> --- >>> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >>> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >>> The University of Chicago >>> >> From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Feb 15 16:49:26 2010 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 22:19:26 +0530 Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088565.23782.532832281709031654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My submission concerned the pronunciation by some?reputed scholars. I think book agents?should not be normally expected to welcome the spelling P??ini. For them, perhaps, Panini is sufficient: DB --- On Mon, 15/2/10, Herman Tull wrote: From: Herman Tull Subject: Re: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 15 February, 2010, 8:01 PM But, at least we can say it is a good thing that these words (mispronounced and misspelled as they are) have come into the general lexicon. By the way, I must admit to having more than once ordered a Paanini when I should have been asking for a Paniini; confusing a grammarian with a grilled turkey sandwich.? I guess this goes both ways!???(In fact, as a a result of my misadventures in pronunciation, I am now utterly terrified by having to order one of these sandwiches.)? But, then, I also once asked for "bed bugs" rather than "curds" in my terribly broken Telegu. Herman Tull -------------------------------------------------- From: "Dipak Bhattacharya" Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 7:56 AM To: Subject: Re: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ > 15 02 10 > Kittel?s transliteration gives v?ran?si but the Kanna? word is written ??????? that is v?r??asi. Could the given transliteration be a printing error? > To the wrong pronunciations add Himalaya for Him?laya and Panini for P??ini. But It is no use counting them, they are a legion. > Best for all > DB > > --- On Mon, 15/2/10, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > > > From: Jean-Luc Chevillard > Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Monday, 15 February, 2010, 4:59 PM > > > As a post-scriptum to my first remark, > I want to addd that I have just had a look at Kittel's Kannada-English dictionary > > it contains on page 1392 > an entry "v?ra??si" > and the authority given is "Bp. 54, 65; 58, 34; My." > > The list abbreviations gives > > Bp. = "Basava pur??a. Bibliotheca Carn?taka, Mangalore, 1850" > > If as early as the 6th century, which is a date often given for the Tamil /Ma?im?kalai /, we find the spelling v?ra??ci, > and if that spelling has remained the norm in Tamil > [See: ] > there must be a reason. > > It would be interesting to have additional data for other indian languages > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Paris) > > > > Le 2/15/2010 10:43 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : >> I would be interested in having comments >> on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. >> >> See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) >> >> ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, situate between the rivers Vara?? and As?; ????. ??????????? ???????????? (???. 13, 3). >> >> See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. >> >> ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See ???????. (????. ??.) >> >> The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling v?ra??ci is the Ma?im?kalai >> and comes from the chapter that tells the story of ?????????. >> >> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >> >> >> Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : >>> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry on "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the effect that, for the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and "raamaayaNa," the third syllable in this name is the least appropriate place to apply a stress accent.? But I have been struck over the years by the frequency with which many people I respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress the vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether they might be following some local tradition unknown to me, despite the official spelling of the name.? Are they?? Is there any good reason to make the third "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? >>> >>> --- >>> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >>> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >>> The University of Chicago >>> >> > > > >? ? ? Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/ > Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Feb 15 17:02:35 2010 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 22:32:35 +0530 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <20100215105201.CJS79264@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088571.23782.7685695925075091087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> True. But?Indians speak and teach wrong English? is too often heard. I am witness to that: The observation, as far as my experience goes, concerns only pronunciation. Objecting to or making fun of alien pronunciation is universal. Usually offence is not meant: DB ? --- On Mon, 15/2/10, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 15 February, 2010, 10:22 PM Isn't every one being a bit too precious about all this? What do French speakers do with English names? What does everyone do with Chinese? How many of us get our Arabic quite right? Not to mention Thai, Tibetan or Khmer... The idea that one is going to launch a campaign to rectify the massacre of Indian names and terms in English is plain silly when you think about it. Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/ From zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE Mon Feb 15 21:58:16 2010 From: zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 10 22:58:16 +0100 Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ In-Reply-To: <2E6CA5A6-D8F6-4EB2-8DA1-7C6DF7FCA484@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <161227088607.23782.4210736414149236691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 15.02.2010, om 20:37 heeft Paul Kiparsky het volgende geschreven: > In Europe, the names used abroad tend to be older, rather than new > and altered! Obviously Cologne and Monaco are is closer to the > original than K?ln and Munchen, etc. I think it is obvious that 'M?nchen' is closer to the original 12th- century 'Munichen' than the Italian 'Monaco' is. (I must confess that I don't know when the French turned Colonia to 'Cologne'. But even if the oldest attestation were to be newer than the native German development Colonia > C?llen > C?ln > K?ln, it is indeed arguably closer to the Latin original.) > And 's-Hertogenbosch may be a translation of Bois-le-Duc and not the > other way round (for the duke in question was presumably French- > speaking). Not likely, because 's-Hertogenbosch is an old town, much older than the one-time fashion among nobles to speak French. Moreover, there are too many Dutch place names that have a similar structure ('s- Gravenhage, 's-Gravensande,...) and have no French version at all. > I'd be surprised if there aren't such cases in India too. Though we should not rule out that possibility, also in India one has to watch out. There are later Sanskritizations of originally non- Sanskritic place names that are presented as 'the original' (e.g., Mais?ru would be derived from Sanskrit 'Mahi??surapura', or, more fancifully, U?upi from 'R?pyap??ha') -- just like the Latinization of M?nchen to the supposedly 'original' 'Monachium'. (There is even a Latin name for Toronto: Torontum. And there's Vinnipega, Vancuverium, Sanctus Johannes, Fredericopolis, Sinus Tonitralis, Mons Regius, Regiopolis [Kingston] too.) RZ From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Feb 16 13:15:22 2010 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 10 08:15:22 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088619.23782.10947975819292626260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree that it is important to have diacritics on romanized Sanskrit to ensure at least the graphic representation of Sanskrit sounds. That however does not assure its pronunciation. I remember attending the meetings of the AOS in old days where American Sanskritists pronounced the Buddhist tathat? as "tatata" with all alveolar 't's and no distinction of vowel length, and mah?bh?rata as "mabarata" with no aspiration for 'b', alveolar 't', and of course no distinction of vowel length. On one of these occasions, my guruji Prof George Cardona was so fed up, that he could not take the barrage of "tatata" and walked out of the room. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Dominik Wujastyk [wujastyk at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 7:15 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi On 15 February 2010 22:45, george thompson wrote: I agree about publishers, George. Like many on this list, I'm sure, I've had my share of arguments with publishers about accents. I've found it helpful to draw an analogy with French or German. It wouldn't be acceptable to print those languages without their accents, and nor is it acceptable for Sanskrit. You said, > I would also like to complain about a decision that was made by the editors > of the Clay Sanskrit Library. This is a great and valuable collection of > translations, but I think that they made a bad decision when they chose to > ignore diacritic marks in their translatons. > There's lots to discuss about the various Clay decisions, but one thing I quite like is the use of the acute accent to mark stress or ictus. While ictus isn't the same as vowel length, it's pretty close to gauravam, and people who know nothing of Sanskrit and don't have access to a teacher do rather well reading such accented words out loud. Best, Dominik From jkirk at SPRO.NET Tue Feb 16 17:09:50 2010 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 10 10:09:50 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <3AF9B038A6B07641B36C799ED4EBB0D704D34C3320@ITCS-ECLS-1-VS3.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227088624.23782.3098244875255177408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The most difficult sound for US English speakers to produce, it has seemed to me over the years, is the dental t and d. What sounds alveolar to speakers of Indian languages does not sound alveolar to "us;" so when we learn the alveolar t & d in say, Hindi and Sanskrit, to my ear we do it harder than maybe we need to since we are unaware of our usual pronunciation of "our" t & d. (Sorry I don't have diacritics on my PC.) We can do the aspirated dentals OK but only after we are taught about the aspirated consonants. Sometimes spoken English does make for aspirated 't's (as in some pronunciations of the word 'matter'), but we don't notice it of course because it's not phonemic for us. Yes, unless well-trained and unless we are alert about it, we tend to botch most of the aspirated consonants. This is a real tongue twister for most of us: tathat? -- but at least we could get the long vowells right, for a change. Joanna K -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Deshpande, Madhav Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:15 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi I agree that it is important to have diacritics on romanized Sanskrit to ensure at least the graphic representation of Sanskrit sounds. That however does not assure its pronunciation. I remember attending the meetings of the AOS in old days where American Sanskritists pronounced the Buddhist tathat? as "tatata" with all alveolar 't's and no distinction of vowel length, and mah?bh?rata as "mabarata" with no aspiration for 'b', alveolar 't', and of course no distinction of vowel length. On one of these occasions, my guruji Prof George Cardona was so fed up, that he could not take the barrage of "tatata" and walked out of the room. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Dominik Wujastyk [wujastyk at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 7:15 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi On 15 February 2010 22:45, george thompson wrote: I agree about publishers, George. Like many on this list, I'm sure, I've had my share of arguments with publishers about accents. I've found it helpful to draw an analogy with French or German. It wouldn't be acceptable to print those languages without their accents, and nor is it acceptable for Sanskrit. You said, > I would also like to complain about a decision that was made by the > editors of the Clay Sanskrit Library. This is a great and valuable > collection of translations, but I think that they made a bad decision > when they chose to ignore diacritic marks in their translatons. > There's lots to discuss about the various Clay decisions, but one thing I quite like is the use of the acute accent to mark stress or ictus. While ictus isn't the same as vowel length, it's pretty close to gauravam, and people who know nothing of Sanskrit and don't have access to a teacher do rather well reading such accented words out loud. Best, Dominik From rajam at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Feb 16 19:49:55 2010 From: rajam at EARTHLINK.NET (rajam) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 10 11:49:55 -0800 Subject: Southern trip of "vaaraaNasii" (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ) In-Reply-To: <4B791757.4080308@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227088626.23782.18154399671534618639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Tamil, there seems to be a three-way rendition of the term "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city) [as originally provided by Gary Tubb]: (i) ???????? "vAraNavAsi" (as attested in an earlier literature, kalittokai ?????????, and later inscriptions). This form can be construed as the combination of: "vAraN(a) + v (glide) + Asi" I also recall that ???????? "vAraNavAsi" is the form attested in ??????????? ??????? ariccantira purANam, the epic describing the story of "Harischandra." I don't have a copy of the book to quote it. Note that the vowels in the syllables of ???????? "vAraNavAsi" are long-short-short-long-short. (ii) ??????? "vAraNAsi" (as attested in certain types of literary texts such the Manimekalai ????????, Tevaram ???????, and ???????????? , Periyapuranam) . This form can be construed as the combination of: "vAraN + Asi" Note that the vowels in the syllables of ??????? "vAraNAsi" are long-short-long-short. (iii) ?????? "vAraNasii". In a recent blog, I found the following quote from the famous singer M.S. Subbulakshmi's "suprabatham" : "?????? ?????? ?? ??????????" ["vAraNasii kulapatE ... ... "], which is interesting since the vowel in the last syllable of the city's name under consideration is long. My memory of the "suprabatham" doesn't help me here. I don't have music recordings to confirm this fact either. Note that the vowels in the syllables of ?????? "vAraNasii" are long-short-short-long. In any case, I can assure that phonology, meter in poetry, and music have had their roles in rendering different versions of the same name in Tamil. Regards, V.S. Rajam (< www.letsgrammar.org>) On Feb 15, 2010, at 1:43 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > I would be interested in having comments > on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. > > See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) > > ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, > situate between the rivers Vara?? and As?; ????. > ??????????? > ???????????? (???. 13, 3). > > See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. > > ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See > ???????. (????. ??.) > > The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling > v?ra??ci is the Ma?im?kalai > and comes from the chapter that tells the story of > ?????????. > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) > > > Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : >> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry >> on "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the >> effect that, for the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and >> "raamaayaNa," the third syllable in this name is the least >> appropriate place to apply a stress accent. But I have been >> struck over the years by the frequency with which many people I >> respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress the >> vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether >> they might be following some local tradition unknown to me, >> despite the official spelling of the name. Are they? Is there >> any good reason to make the third "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? >> >> --- >> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >> The University of Chicago >> From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 16 12:05:33 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 10 13:05:33 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <20100215105201.CJS79264@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088614.23782.7244026090173288685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> So anyone can pronounce any word any way they like? Surely you don't think that? I don't think it's being precious at all, Matthew. Of course, as Einstein proved, it's all relative (that's a joke). But then again, it's not all relative, and there is indeed right and wrong, in a particular framed, situated locale (like spoken Sanskrit). The criterion is what is received as comfortable, acceptable, and immediately intelligible by the community of other local speakers. We're not launching a campaign, but answering frequently-asked questions. (Or will be, if anyone actually writes any of this in faq.indology.info) I am reminded of a big bust-up that I had with my English teacher once, at school. I was about 9 years old, and I was at Comboni College, Khartoum, where my teacher was an Egyptian gentleman. He was teaching us about London, where I was born, and when he got to the name of London's river, he told the class that it was the river /thaymees/ (like "rabies"). I put up my hand and offered another opinion. But he wouldn't have it. I was severely reprimanded, and the class was reassured about the correct pronunciation. Actually, most people quite like "getting the pronunciation right," as part of a modest process of acculturation. All they need is some information about the history of word change, and they can make up their own minds whether they want to emulate historical speakers of Sanskrit (who cared, and followed a learned tradition of ?ik??, after all) or contemporary tourists superimposing English speech patterns on written words in unhelpful transliterations. I'm absolutely certain I don't get my Arabic right, but I'd really like to. Now, where's the FAQ.arabic.com? :-) Best, Dominik On 15 February 2010 17:52, wrote: > Isn't every one being a bit too precious about all this? > What do French speakers do with English names? > What does everyone do with Chinese? > How many of us get our Arabic quite right? > Not to mention Thai, Tibetan or Khmer... > > The idea that one is going to launch a campaign to > rectify the massacre of Indian names and terms in > English is plain silly when you think about it. > > Matthew > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 16 12:15:47 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 10 13:15:47 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <4B79C07D.1070704@comcast.net> Message-ID: <161227088617.23782.14990634736392002705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 15 February 2010 22:45, george thompson wrote: I agree about publishers, George. Like many on this list, I'm sure, I've had my share of arguments with publishers about accents. I've found it helpful to draw an analogy with French or German. It wouldn't be acceptable to print those languages without their accents, and nor is it acceptable for Sanskrit. You said, > I would also like to complain about a decision that was made by the editors > of the Clay Sanskrit Library. This is a great and valuable collection of > translations, but I think that they made a bad decision when they chose to > ignore diacritic marks in their translatons. > There's lots to discuss about the various Clay decisions, but one thing I quite like is the use of the acute accent to mark stress or ictus. While ictus isn't the same as vowel length, it's pretty close to gauravam, and people who know nothing of Sanskrit and don't have access to a teacher do rather well reading such accented words out loud. Best, Dominik From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Tue Feb 16 13:36:12 2010 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 10 13:36:12 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088621.23782.15155994448508604829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I also agree with George about this. I have found publishers pretty amenable about diacritics. However in case of argument it is certainly worth making the point about treating Sanskrit with the same respect as French or German. There is also the fact that omitting diacritics can cause confusion between different words (cp. the kali/kAlI point). It's not a great problem to write a pronunciation guide, and I don't think anyone minds if you recycle one you've done before, especially if you replace the examples with ones relevant to the current work. Valerie J Roebuck At 1:15 pm +0100 16/2/10, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >On 15 February 2010 22:45, george thompson wrote: > >I agree about publishers, George. Like many on this list, I'm sure, I've >had my share of arguments with publishers about accents. I've found it >helpful to draw an analogy with French or German. It wouldn't be acceptable >to print those languages without their accents, and nor is it acceptable for >Sanskrit. > >You said, > >> I would also like to complain about a decision that was made by the editors >> of the Clay Sanskrit Library. This is a great and valuable collection of >> translations, but I think that they made a bad decision when they chose to >> ignore diacritic marks in their translatons. >> > >There's lots to discuss about the various Clay decisions, but one thing I >quite like is the use of the acute accent to mark stress or ictus. While >ictus isn't the same as vowel length, it's pretty close to gauravam, and >people who know nothing of Sanskrit and don't have access to a teacher do >rather well reading such accented words out loud. > >Best, >Dominik From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Wed Feb 17 03:06:09 2010 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (george thompson) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 10 22:06:09 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088628.23782.17349105685214183148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With regard to Dominik's last point: >There's lots to discuss about the various Clay decisions, but one thing I >quite like is the use of the acute accent to mark stress or ictus. While >ictus isn't the same as vowel length, it's pretty close to gauravam, and >people who know nothing of Sanskrit and don't have access to a teacher do >rather well reading such accented words out loud. > >Best, >Dominik > > > Agreed. But I am a Vedicist who spends most of his time working on accented Vedic texts like the Rigveda. So for me at least this use of the acute accent marker is disconcerting, since Vedicists need to mark both long and short vowels as well as pitch. I think that the best way to go, in general, is to start with the very simple and easy distinction between short and long vowels. The Clay system does not do that. In fact, the Clay program doesn't do Vedic at all. What does that mean? In my view, the Clay Library system of transliteration is an arbitrary and a completely unsuccessful failure. Is 'Rama' [with or without acute accent] reallly better than 'Raama?' Is 'Sita' an acceptable equivalent for 'Siitaa'? Is 'Praja-pati' okay in any sense? You will find all of these ghastly forms and many more in the Clay editions. What is wrong with using long and short vowel markers instead? Sincerely, I think that the alternative is absurd. Best wishes George From tlsmith at UFL.EDU Wed Feb 17 03:59:43 2010 From: tlsmith at UFL.EDU (Smith,Travis LaMar) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 10 22:59:43 -0500 Subject: Southern trip of "vaaraaNasii" (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088633.23782.5535444135391148107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am surprised and fascinated by these southern pronunciations of Varanasi. Regarding V.S. Rajam's report of a third variant, however: (iii) ?????? "vAraNasii". In a recent blog, I found the following quote from the famous singer M.S. Subbulakshmi's "suprabatham" : "?????? ?????? ?? ??????????" ["vAraNasii kulapatE ... ... "], which is interesting since the vowel in the last syllable of the city's name under consideration is long. My memory of the "suprabatham" doesn't help me here. I don't have music recordings to confirm this fact either. Note that the vowels in the syllables of ?????? "vAraNasii" are long-short-short-long. I suspect that the source of this is actually the popular hymn attributed (doubtfully, needless to say) to ZaMkaraacaarya, the refrain of which runs: "vaaraaNasii-pura-patiM bhaja vizvanaatham...." It is of course in the same meter as the several suprabhAtam hymns, addressed to various deities, and also uses the technique of the repeated final pAda refrain, hence the confusion with the suprabhAtam mini-genre. I don't think I've heard M.S. Subbalakshmi's version but I'd be surprised if it were not this: it's quite well-known among the legions of Sanskrit praise-hymns to Varanasi. The point being that this is probably not an additional variant of vaaraaNasii, but simply the "official" Sanskrit version. The other variants remain very interesting, and I wonder if and how early they follow the common Puranic etymology of vaaraaNasii = varaNaa + asii (as per the Tamil lexicon cited by Jean-Luc Chevillard). I still assume that this is a "creative" etymology and not a historical one (one would expect a long-A in the penultimate syllable if it were a real compound), but its (premodern?) employment outside of the Sanskrit PuraaNa-s would be a matter worth exploring. Thanks and best to all, -- Travis L. Smith Assistant Professor Department of Religion University of Florida ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of rajam [rajam at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:49 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Southern trip of "vaaraaNasii" (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ) In Tamil, there seems to be a three-way rendition of the term "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city) [as originally provided by Gary Tubb]: (i) ???????? "vAraNavAsi" (as attested in an earlier literature, kalittokai ?????????, and later inscriptions). This form can be construed as the combination of: "vAraN(a) + v (glide) + Asi" I also recall that ???????? "vAraNavAsi" is the form attested in ??????????? ??????? ariccantira purANam, the epic describing the story of "Harischandra." I don't have a copy of the book to quote it. Note that the vowels in the syllables of ???????? "vAraNavAsi" are long-short-short-long-short. (ii) ??????? "vAraNAsi" (as attested in certain types of literary texts such the Manimekalai ????????, Tevaram ???????, and ???????????? , Periyapuranam) . This form can be construed as the combination of: "vAraN + Asi" Note that the vowels in the syllables of ??????? "vAraNAsi" are long-short-long-short. In any case, I can assure that phonology, meter in poetry, and music have had their roles in rendering different versions of the same name in Tamil. Regards, V.S. Rajam (< www.letsgrammar.org>) On Feb 15, 2010, at 1:43 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > I would be interested in having comments > on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. > > See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) > > ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, > situate between the rivers Vara?? and As?; ????. > ??????????? > ???????????? (???. 13, 3). > > See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. > > ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See > ???????. (????. ??.) > > The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling > v?ra??ci is the Ma?im?kalai > and comes from the chapter that tells the story of > ?????????. > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) > > > Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : >> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry >> on "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the >> effect that, for the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and >> "raamaayaNa," the third syllable in this name is the least >> appropriate place to apply a stress accent. But I have been >> struck over the years by the frequency with which many people I >> respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress the >> vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether >> they might be following some local tradition unknown to me, >> despite the official spelling of the name. Are they? Is there >> any good reason to make the third "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? >> >> --- >> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >> The University of Chicago >> From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Feb 17 14:06:16 2010 From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (Gary Tubb) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 08:06:16 -0600 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088640.23782.6467143387303549697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik, we may be dealing here with, more precisely, English word rhythm choices earmarked for attacking foreign words. In speaking to earlier generations of students, I used to call this the "Art Fleming syndrome." Art Fleming was the host of the television quiz show "Jeopardy" throughout most of the '60's and '70's, and among his many charms was the notorious practice of pronouncing every unfamiliar foreign word as if it were Spanish (actually Spanish with an American English accent, which would have him pronounce words like Ramayana and Mahabharata with the stress on the penultimate syllable, but with a non-Spanish reduction of the preceding vowel). Mr. Fleming did this with such confidence (following the advice of another great American showman, P.T. Barnum: "If you don't know how to pronounce a word, say it LOUD") that he probably helped millions feel reassured in indulging the same instinct. What causes speakers of North Indian languages such as Hindi to make a similar shift in some English place names, such as "amriikaa" for "America"? Has Portuguese or some other language intervened in the history of this word? --G. Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Some notes on English word stress rules: > > http://www.englishclub.com/pronunciation/word-stress-rules.htm > > > D > From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Feb 17 13:33:37 2010 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 08:33:37 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi Message-ID: <161227088638.23782.1159462966749744022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Of course, as Einstein proved, it's all relative (that's a joke)." Actually, as someone remarked, he could as appropriately have named the theory, "The Theory of the Absolute Speed of Light." Was he pushing relativism in other fields, as some have used his work to do? Interesting point, though off the subject. Anyway, Sanskrit in large part for many many centuries has been a language radically formed not only by prescriptive grammar but by prescriptive phonetics, described in terms of articulation. Anyway, a bunch of tiny thugs or prissy little misses on the playground of a preschool are as radically prescriptivist and demanding of a new kid who talks funny as the most pedantic grammarian or driest schoolmarm. So much for certain American sociolinguistics who deride prescriptive grammar, even in the schools. Pardon random venting of a mind that had to get up too early this morning and hasn't had enough coffee yet. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From rajam at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Feb 17 16:37:14 2010 From: rajam at EARTHLINK.NET (rajam) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 08:37:14 -0800 Subject: Southern trip of "vaaraaNasii" (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088663.23782.3587777980863789115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I found a link to M.S.S' recitation: http://ww.smashits.com/music/malayalam/play/songs/452/Suprabhathams/ 9064/Kashi-Viswanatha-Suprabhatham.html Within the first 1.23 minutes of the recitation and later around 6+ minutes, I hear "vaaraaNasi" (???????) with the vowel pattern long-long-short-short, which is different from what I saw in the blog (??????). I don't hear a long vowel at the end of "vaaraaNasi" maybe because of the smooth gliding into the next word. A word spoken in isolation may be mangled (or, is allowed to be mangled) in singing? This happens quite often in Tamil. --r On Feb 16, 2010, at 7:59 PM, Smith,Travis LaMar wrote: > I am surprised and fascinated by these southern pronunciations of > Varanasi. Regarding V.S. Rajam's report of a third variant, however: > > (iii) ?????? "vAraNasii". In a recent blog, I found the > following quote from the famous singer M.S. Subbulakshmi's > "suprabatham" : "?????? ?????? ?? > ??????????" ["vAraNasii kulapatE ... ... "], which > is interesting since the vowel in the last syllable of the city's > name under consideration is long. My memory of the "suprabatham" > doesn't help me here. I don't have music recordings to confirm this > fact either. > Note that the vowels in the syllables of ?????? > "vAraNasii" are long-short-short-long. > > I suspect that the source of this is actually the popular hymn > attributed (doubtfully, needless to say) to ZaMkaraacaarya, the > refrain of which runs: "vaaraaNasii-pura-patiM bhaja > vizvanaatham...." It is of course in the same meter as the several > suprabhAtam hymns, addressed to various deities, and also uses the > technique of the repeated final pAda refrain, hence the confusion > with the suprabhAtam mini-genre. I don't think I've heard M.S. > Subbalakshmi's version but I'd be surprised if it were not this: > it's quite well-known among the legions of Sanskrit praise-hymns to > Varanasi. The point being that this is probably not an additional > variant of vaaraaNasii, but simply the "official" Sanskrit version. > > The other variants remain very interesting, and I wonder if and how > early they follow the common Puranic etymology of vaaraaNasii = > varaNaa + asii (as per the Tamil lexicon cited by Jean-Luc > Chevillard). I still assume that this is a "creative" etymology and > not a historical one (one would expect a long-A in the penultimate > syllable if it were a real compound), but its (premodern?) > employment outside of the Sanskrit PuraaNa-s would be a matter > worth exploring. > > Thanks and best to all, > > -- > Travis L. Smith > Assistant Professor > Department of Religion > University of Florida > ________________________________________ > From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of rajam > [rajam at EARTHLINK.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:49 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Southern trip of "vaaraaNasii" (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ) > > In Tamil, there seems to be a three-way rendition of the term > "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city) [as originally provided by > Gary Tubb]: > > (i) ???????? > "vAraNavAsi" (as attested in an earlier literature, kalittokai > ?????????, and later inscriptions). This form can be > construed as the combination of: "vAraN(a) + v (glide) + Asi" > > I also recall that ???????? "vAraNavAsi" is the form > attested in ??????????? ??????? > ariccantira purANam, the epic describing the story of "Harischandra." > I don't have a copy of the book to quote it. > > Note that the vowels in the syllables of ???????? > "vAraNavAsi" are long-short-short-long-short. > > (ii) ??????? "vAraNAsi" (as attested in certain types of > literary texts such the Manimekalai ????????, > Tevaram ???????, and > ???????????? > , Periyapuranam) > . This form can be construed as the combination of: "vAraN + Asi" > > Note that the vowels in the syllables of ??????? > "vAraNAsi" are long-short-long-short. > > > In any case, I can assure that phonology, meter in poetry, and music > have had their roles in rendering different versions of the same name > in Tamil. > > Regards, > V.S. Rajam > (< www.letsgrammar.org>) > > > > On Feb 15, 2010, at 1:43 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > >> I would be interested in having comments >> on the Tamil form: ??????? [v?ra??ci]. >> >> See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610) >> >> ??????? v?ra??ci, n. < V?ra?as?. Benares, >> situate between the rivers Vara?? and As?; ????. >> ??????????? >> ???????????? (???. 13, 3). >> >> See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling. >> >> ?????? v?ra?aci, n. < v?ra?as?. See >> ???????. (????. ??.) >> >> The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling >> v?ra??ci is the Ma?im?kalai >> and comes from the chapter that tells the story of >> ?????????. >> >> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >> >> >> Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a ?crit : >>> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry >>> on "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the >>> effect that, for the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and >>> "raamaayaNa," the third syllable in this name is the least >>> appropriate place to apply a stress accent. But I have been >>> struck over the years by the frequency with which many people I >>> respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress the >>> vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether >>> they might be following some local tradition unknown to me, >>> despite the official spelling of the name. Are they? Is there >>> any good reason to make the third "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long? >>> >>> --- >>> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair >>> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations >>> The University of Chicago From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Feb 17 14:37:50 2010 From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (Gary Tubb) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 08:37:50 -0600 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088648.23782.1738853171453888892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It must have been Strunk who said it first. It's the sort of statement that tends to be put back on Barnum (this time apparently by me), just as statements of another type are attracted to the corpus of things said by Yogi Berra (or Amaru or Mirabai). --Gary Tubb. Herman Tull wrote: > From the obscure footnote department--perhaps this principle was first > enunciated by P. T. Barnum, but it was popularized by the great New > Yorker writer, E. B. White in describing his teacher, Willaim Strunk > (recounted in the preface to their "Elements of Style"): > > "He felt it was worse to be irresolute than to be wrong. I remember a > day in class when he leaned far forward, in his characteristic > pose--the pose of a man about to impart a secret--and croaked, "If you > don't know how to pronounce a word, say it loud! If you don't know > how to pronounce a word, say it loud!" This comical piece of advice > struck me as sound at the time, and I still respect it. Why compound > ignorance with inaudibility. Why run and hide?" > > Herman Tull > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Gary Tubb" > Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:06 AM > To: > Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi > >> Dominik, we may be dealing here with, more precisely, English word >> rhythm choices earmarked for attacking foreign words. In speaking to >> earlier generations of students, I used to call this the "Art Fleming >> syndrome." Art Fleming was the host of the television quiz show >> "Jeopardy" throughout most of the '60's and '70's, and among his many >> charms was the notorious practice of pronouncing every unfamiliar >> foreign word as if it were Spanish (actually Spanish with an American >> English accent, which would have him pronounce words like Ramayana >> and Mahabharata with the stress on the penultimate syllable, but with >> a non-Spanish reduction of the preceding vowel). Mr. Fleming did >> this with such confidence (following the advice of another great >> American showman, P.T. Barnum: "If you don't know how to pronounce a >> word, say it LOUD") that he probably helped millions feel reassured >> in indulging the same instinct. >> >> What causes speakers of North Indian languages such as Hindi to make >> a similar shift in some English place names, such as "amriikaa" for >> "America"? Has Portuguese or some other language intervened in the >> history of this word? >> >> --G. >> >> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >>> Some notes on English word stress rules: >>> >>> http://www.englishclub.com/pronunciation/word-stress-rules.htm >>> >>> >>> D >>> >> From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Feb 17 14:11:50 2010 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 09:11:50 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit song by a Chinese singer Message-ID: <161227088643.23782.6383585585325531799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While we are on pronunciation of Sanskrit, someone sent me the Youtube link for a Sanskrit song sung by a Chinese pop-singer. Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvQf4JIimzM I would appreciate if someone can figure out the Sanskrit words/sounds she is singing. The first word seems to be something like "nama?". Best Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Gary Tubb [tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:06 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi Dominik, we may be dealing here with, more precisely, English word rhythm choices earmarked for attacking foreign words. In speaking to earlier generations of students, I used to call this the "Art Fleming syndrome." Art Fleming was the host of the television quiz show "Jeopardy" throughout most of the '60's and '70's, and among his many charms was the notorious practice of pronouncing every unfamiliar foreign word as if it were Spanish (actually Spanish with an American English accent, which would have him pronounce words like Ramayana and Mahabharata with the stress on the penultimate syllable, but with a non-Spanish reduction of the preceding vowel). Mr. Fleming did this with such confidence (following the advice of another great American showman, P.T. Barnum: "If you don't know how to pronounce a word, say it LOUD") that he probably helped millions feel reassured in indulging the same instinct. What causes speakers of North Indian languages such as Hindi to make a similar shift in some English place names, such as "amriikaa" for "America"? Has Portuguese or some other language intervened in the history of this word? --G. Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Some notes on English word stress rules: > > http://www.englishclub.com/pronunciation/word-stress-rules.htm > > > D > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Feb 17 03:56:36 2010 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 09:26:36 +0530 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088630.23782.6331216598369781623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, I enormously thank everybody for the enlightening debate. It just came to me that perhaps the problem is deeper. ?A lecture is not intended by me and any silly utterance should ?be forgiven. Anyone can note that as yet there is no theory that can fully identify, not to speak of a technique to teach, what Ducrot calls the ?arbitraire linguistique fundamental ? as distinguished from the peculiarity of each phoneme. Learners are taught the latter while the former is just vaguely identified. ?See Martinet?s remarks (?conomie? ) on the Farsi bad and the English bad. ?This is why mastering the exact pronunciation is impossible at present. The problem with classical languages is further complicated by the non-existence of the original speakers. ? Best for all DB --- On Tue, 16/2/10, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 16 February, 2010, 5:35 PM So anyone can pronounce any word any way they like?? Surely you don't think that? I don't think it's being precious at all, Matthew.? Of course, as Einstein proved, it's all relative (that's a joke).? But then again, it's not all relative, and there is indeed right and wrong, in a particular framed, situated locale (like spoken Sanskrit).? The criterion is what is received as comfortable, acceptable, and immediately intelligible by the community of other local speakers.? We're not launching a campaign, but answering frequently-asked questions.? (Or will be, if anyone actually writes any of this in faq.indology.info) I am reminded of a big bust-up that I had with my English teacher once, at school.? I was about 9 years old, and I was at Comboni College, Khartoum, where my teacher was an Egyptian gentleman.? He was teaching us about London, where I was born, and when he got to the name of London's river, he told the class that it was the river /thaymees/ (like "rabies").? I put up my hand and offered another opinion.? But he wouldn't have it.? I was severely reprimanded, and the class was reassured about the correct pronunciation. Actually, most people quite like "getting the pronunciation right," as part of a modest process of acculturation.? All they need is some information about the history of word change, and they can make up their own minds whether they want to emulate historical speakers of Sanskrit (who cared, and followed a learned tradition of ?ik??, after all) or contemporary tourists superimposing English speech patterns on written words in unhelpful transliterations. I'm absolutely certain I don't get my Arabic right, but I'd really like to. Now, where's the FAQ.arabic.com? :-) Best, Dominik On 15 February 2010 17:52, wrote: > Isn't every one being a bit too precious about all this? > What do French speakers do with English names? > What does everyone do with Chinese? > How many of us get our Arabic quite right? > Not to mention Thai, Tibetan or Khmer... > > The idea that one is going to launch a campaign to > rectify the massacre of Indian names and terms in > English is plain silly when you think about it. > > Matthew > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/ From hwtull at MSN.COM Wed Feb 17 14:31:57 2010 From: hwtull at MSN.COM (Herman Tull) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 09:31:57 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <4B7BF7D8.1010404@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088645.23782.747234042325957818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From the obscure footnote department--perhaps this principle was first enunciated by P. T. Barnum, but it was popularized by the great New Yorker writer, E. B. White in describing his teacher, Willaim Strunk (recounted in the preface to their "Elements of Style"): "He felt it was worse to be irresolute than to be wrong. I remember a day in class when he leaned far forward, in his characteristic pose--the pose of a man about to impart a secret--and croaked, "If you don't know how to pronounce a word, say it loud! If you don't know how to pronounce a word, say it loud!" This comical piece of advice struck me as sound at the time, and I still respect it. Why compound ignorance with inaudibility. Why run and hide?" Herman Tull -------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary Tubb" Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:06 AM To: Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi > Dominik, we may be dealing here with, more precisely, English word rhythm > choices earmarked for attacking foreign words. In speaking to earlier > generations of students, I used to call this the "Art Fleming syndrome." > Art Fleming was the host of the television quiz show "Jeopardy" throughout > most of the '60's and '70's, and among his many charms was the notorious > practice of pronouncing every unfamiliar foreign word as if it were > Spanish (actually Spanish with an American English accent, which would > have him pronounce words like Ramayana and Mahabharata with the stress on > the penultimate syllable, but with a non-Spanish reduction of the > preceding vowel). Mr. Fleming did this with such confidence (following > the advice of another great American showman, P.T. Barnum: "If you don't > know how to pronounce a word, say it LOUD") that he probably helped > millions feel reassured in indulging the same instinct. > > What causes speakers of North Indian languages such as Hindi to make a > similar shift in some English place names, such as "amriikaa" for > "America"? Has Portuguese or some other language intervened in the > history of this word? > > --G. > > Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >> Some notes on English word stress rules: >> >> http://www.englishclub.com/pronunciation/word-stress-rules.htm >> >> >> D >> > From fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Feb 17 15:31:11 2010 From: fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frances Pritchett) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 10:31:11 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088652.23782.8449481050389620179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> And then there was the apparently universal habit among news commentators of speaking of "Ra-ZHeev" Gandhi. My theory is that the zh for j was borrowed from French ("jeune"), and sounded nice and exotic, while plain old j didn't have that same satisfying ring. As for amriikaa , if you imagine yourself as working from the look only, not the sound, then it could happen, since "e" is often used by casual transliterators for short a ("sunder," "Inder"). And transliterators often work from the look; thus Urdu discussions of the thought of "Go-ii-thii". This is a very enjoyable topic, it gives us all a chance to vent... Fran Herman Tull wrote: > From the obscure footnote department--perhaps this principle was first > enunciated by P. T. Barnum, but it was popularized by the great New > Yorker writer, E. B. White in describing his teacher, Willaim Strunk > (recounted in the preface to their "Elements of Style"): > > "He felt it was worse to be irresolute than to be wrong. I remember a > day in class when he leaned far forward, in his characteristic > pose--the pose of a man about to impart a secret--and croaked, "If you > don't know how to pronounce a word, say it loud! If you don't know > how to pronounce a word, say it loud!" This comical piece of advice > struck me as sound at the time, and I still respect it. Why compound > ignorance with inaudibility. Why run and hide?" > > Herman Tull > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Gary Tubb" > Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:06 AM > To: > Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi > >> Dominik, we may be dealing here with, more precisely, English word >> rhythm choices earmarked for attacking foreign words. In speaking to >> earlier generations of students, I used to call this the "Art Fleming >> syndrome." Art Fleming was the host of the television quiz show >> "Jeopardy" throughout most of the '60's and '70's, and among his many >> charms was the notorious practice of pronouncing every unfamiliar >> foreign word as if it were Spanish (actually Spanish with an American >> English accent, which would have him pronounce words like Ramayana >> and Mahabharata with the stress on the penultimate syllable, but with >> a non-Spanish reduction of the preceding vowel). Mr. Fleming did >> this with such confidence (following the advice of another great >> American showman, P.T. Barnum: "If you don't know how to pronounce a >> word, say it LOUD") that he probably helped millions feel reassured >> in indulging the same instinct. >> >> What causes speakers of North Indian languages such as Hindi to make >> a similar shift in some English place names, such as "amriikaa" for >> "America"? Has Portuguese or some other language intervened in the >> history of this word? >> >> --G. >> >> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >>> Some notes on English word stress rules: >>> >>> http://www.englishclub.com/pronunciation/word-stress-rules.htm >>> >>> >>> D >>> >> > From rhayes at UNM.EDU Wed Feb 17 17:38:31 2010 From: rhayes at UNM.EDU (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 10:38:31 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <20100217T114434Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227088668.23782.4475392084603435044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 11:44 -0500, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > "And then there was the apparently universal habit among news > commentators of speaking of "Ra-ZHeev" Gandhi. My theory is that the zh > for j was borrowed from French ("jeune"), and sounded nice and exotic, > while plain old j didn't have that same satisfying ring." It occurs to me that a similar consideration may account for the misplacement of 'h' in many Indic words as spelled by Americans, e.g., Ghandi and Buddah. After all, 'h' is silent in Spanish and French (the two languages other than English that Americans are most likely to know or at least know something about), so it must be silent in all foreign languages. And if a letter is silent, it really doesn't matter where one puts it, right? Of course, Americans know that 'h' sometimes is part of a digraphic representation of a single sound, so American Ayurvedic aficionados will talk about their kapha (kaffa), and Yankee yogis will practice their hatha (where 'th' is pronounced as in 'think'). Sorry for being precious again, Matthew. It's hard to resist having fun at the expense of Americans. -- Richard Philip Hayes Department of Philosophy (What a nice bundle of words with 'h', eh?) From silviadintino at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 17 18:44:36 2010 From: silviadintino at YAHOO.COM (Silvia D'Intino) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 10:44:36 -0800 Subject: Intensive Course in Vedic Grammar and Syntax In-Reply-To: <4DD6E8A9FCDD4B1FB52C6849D153668B@SlajePC> Message-ID: <161227088671.23782.16932365463933970212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mia Cate, Avrei tanto voluto invitarlo, se solo avessi saputo che era in Germania (e non a Kyoto) all'epoca del convegno... Avremmo potuto spostarlo all'8 e 9/10? Si puo' fare un convegno di sabato??Scusami, ? che sento le cose sfuggirmi di mano in questi giorni (non sono riuscita ancora a finire una prima versione della lettera). Ti abbraccio,tuaSilvia --- En date de?: Mer 17.2.10, Walter Slaje a ?crit?: De: Walter Slaje Objet: Intensive Course in Vedic Grammar and Syntax ?: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Mercredi 17 f?vrier 2010, 7h51 Dear Colleagues, I am pleased to announce that an Intensive Course in Vedic Grammar and Syntax ("Indian Summer in Halle 2010") will be held at the Indology Department of Martin Luther University Halle (Saale) from September 27th to October 8th, 2010: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/aktuelles/poster_veda.pdf The course, comprising an introduction into Vedic grammar and syntax as well as the reading of Vedic hymns and prose, will be taught by Dr. Werner Knobl (Kyoto). The medium of teaching will be German. All those interested in the course are most welcome and kindly asked to register by July 1, 2010. Further details are available on our website: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/aktuelles/index.htm The classes start just after the German Oriental Studies Congress (DOT) in Marburg (20-24 September). More details are available on our website: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/aktuelles/index.htm Please do pass on this message to anyone possibly interested. ? ? ? Contact: PD Dr. Annette Schmiedchen ? ???Dr. Katrin Einicke ? ??? ? ? ? annette.schmiedchen at indologie.uni-halle.de ? ???katrin.einicke at indologie.uni-halle.de ? ??? ? ? ? +49-(0)345/ 55 23650 ? ???+49-(0)345/ 55 23656 ? ??? Kindly regarding, Walter Slaje ------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Feb 17 16:44:34 2010 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 11:44:34 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi Message-ID: <161227088666.23782.1259180470593772535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "And then there was the apparently universal habit among news commentators of speaking of "Ra-ZHeev" Gandhi. My theory is that the zh for j was borrowed from French ("jeune"), and sounded nice and exotic, while plain old j didn't have that same satisfying ring." The same is fairly common in pronouncing "raja" and "maharaja." Indeed, perhaps the zh sound in "Razheev" is a transfer from these words. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From silviadintino at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 17 19:49:09 2010 From: silviadintino at YAHOO.COM (Silvia D'Intino) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 11:49:09 -0800 Subject: erratum Message-ID: <161227088679.23782.984879501362440266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for sending a private mail to the list. Silvia D'Intino --- En date de?: Mer 17.2.10, Silvia D'Intino a ?crit?: De: Silvia D'Intino Objet: Re : Intensive Course in Vedic Grammar and Syntax ?: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Mercredi 17 f?vrier 2010, 10h44 Mia Cate, Avrei tanto voluto invitarlo, se solo avessi saputo che era in Germania (e non a Kyoto) all'epoca del convegno... Avremmo potuto spostarlo all'8 e 9/10? Si puo' fare un convegno di sabato??Scusami, ? che sento le cose sfuggirmi di mano in questi giorni (non sono riuscita ancora a finire una prima versione della lettera). Ti abbraccio,tuaSilvia --- En date de?: Mer 17.2.10, Walter Slaje a ?crit?: De: Walter Slaje Objet: Intensive Course in Vedic Grammar and Syntax ?: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Mercredi 17 f?vrier 2010, 7h51 Dear Colleagues, I am pleased to announce that an Intensive Course in Vedic Grammar and Syntax ("Indian Summer in Halle 2010") will be held at the Indology Department of Martin Luther University Halle (Saale) from September 27th to October 8th, 2010: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/aktuelles/poster_veda.pdf The course, comprising an introduction into Vedic grammar and syntax as well as the reading of Vedic hymns and prose, will be taught by Dr. Werner Knobl (Kyoto). The medium of teaching will be German. All those interested in the course are most welcome and kindly asked to register by July 1, 2010. Further details are available on our website: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/aktuelles/index.htm The classes start just after the German Oriental Studies Congress (DOT) in Marburg (20-24 September). More details are available on our website: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/aktuelles/index.htm Please do pass on this message to anyone possibly interested. ? ? ? Contact: PD Dr. Annette Schmiedchen ? ???Dr. Katrin Einicke ? ??? ? ? ? annette.schmiedchen at indologie.uni-halle.de ? ???katrin.einicke at indologie.uni-halle.de ? ??? ? ? ? +49-(0)345/ 55 23650 ? ???+49-(0)345/ 55 23656 ? ??? Kindly regarding, Walter Slaje ------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Wed Feb 17 11:07:36 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 12:07:36 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <92545.59429.qm@web8604.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227088636.23782.16262458196190268430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some notes on English word stress rules: http://www.englishclub.com/pronunciation/word-stress-rules.htm D From aprigliano at USP.BR Wed Feb 17 15:36:00 2010 From: aprigliano at USP.BR (Adriano Aprigliano) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 13:36:00 -0200 Subject: RES: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <4B7BF7D8.1010404@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088657.23782.10948643544462724549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues Answering Gary Tubb's question, in portuguese the stress in America is on the e, following the original italian of Americo Vespucci. I think the hindi pronunciation should probably have been modeled on the arabic amriikaa. Best Adriano Aprigliano Universidade de S?o Paulo Brasil -----Mensagem original----- De: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Em nome de Gary Tubb Enviada em: quarta-feira, 17 de fevereiro de 2010 12:06 Para: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Assunto: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi Dominik, we may be dealing here with, more precisely, English word rhythm choices earmarked for attacking foreign words. In speaking to earlier generations of students, I used to call this the "Art Fleming syndrome." Art Fleming was the host of the television quiz show "Jeopardy" throughout most of the '60's and '70's, and among his many charms was the notorious practice of pronouncing every unfamiliar foreign word as if it were Spanish (actually Spanish with an American English accent, which would have him pronounce words like Ramayana and Mahabharata with the stress on the penultimate syllable, but with a non-Spanish reduction of the preceding vowel). Mr. Fleming did this with such confidence (following the advice of another great American showman, P.T. Barnum: "If you don't know how to pronounce a word, say it LOUD") that he probably helped millions feel reassured in indulging the same instinct. What causes speakers of North Indian languages such as Hindi to make a similar shift in some English place names, such as "amriikaa" for "America"? Has Portuguese or some other language intervened in the history of this word? --G. Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Some notes on English word stress rules: > > http://www.englishclub.com/pronunciation/word-stress-rules.htm > > > D > From hwtull at MSN.COM Wed Feb 17 19:03:00 2010 From: hwtull at MSN.COM (Herman Tull) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 14:03:00 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <1266428311.2081.39.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <161227088674.23782.704974459930657625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is irresistible, but speaking of "h"-s there is that little matter of the transformation of the Sanskrit "s" to the Persian "h"--not an "error" at all, or is it? And, these lines, I always take pains to teach students to pronounce "phala" with an aspirated "p" sound, and not to confuse it with the "f" sound that is represented by "ph" in English (as in "nephew"). This year, however, I have a student (a native Bengali speaker) who pronounces it as as "fala". I hesitate to "correct" him (I spend enough time trying to "get" his pronunciation of initial "a"-s which, of course, he pronounces [as do tens of millions of his countrymen] as "o-s"). When we discussed this, he cheerfully informed me that we really never can be sure exactly how native Sanskrit speakers pronounced their words. By the way, I've brought to the attention of my introductory Sanskrit class some of the central elements of this topic (no names of course). It led to a lively class discussion--in fact, much to my regret (and my students' glee), we barely had time for our translation work. regards, Herman -------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard P. Hayes" Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 12:38 PM To: Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi > On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 11:44 -0500, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > >> "And then there was the apparently universal habit among news >> commentators of speaking of "Ra-ZHeev" Gandhi. My theory is that the zh >> for j was borrowed from French ("jeune"), and sounded nice and exotic, >> while plain old j didn't have that same satisfying ring." > > It occurs to me that a similar consideration may account for the > misplacement of 'h' in many Indic words as spelled by Americans, e.g., > Ghandi and Buddah. After all, 'h' is silent in Spanish and French (the > two languages other than English that Americans are most likely to know > or at least know something about), so it must be silent in all foreign > languages. And if a letter is silent, it really doesn't matter where one > puts it, right? > > Of course, Americans know that 'h' sometimes is part of a digraphic > representation of a single sound, so American Ayurvedic aficionados will > talk about their kapha (kaffa), and Yankee yogis will practice their > hatha (where 'th' is pronounced as in 'think'). > > Sorry for being precious again, Matthew. It's hard to resist having fun > at the expense of Americans. > > > -- > Richard Philip Hayes > Department of Philosophy > (What a nice bundle of words with 'h', eh?) > From jkirk at SPRO.NET Wed Feb 17 21:25:37 2010 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 14:25:37 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <4B7C071D0200003A000775B7@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227088687.23782.7095531605714690186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "And, these lines, I always take pains to teach students to pronounce "phala" with an aspirated "p" sound, and not to confuse it with the "f" sound that is represented by "ph" in English (as in "nephew"). This year, however, I have a student (a native Bengali speaker) who pronounces it as as "fala". I hesitate to "correct" him (I spend enough time trying to "get" his pronunciation of initial "a"-s which, of course, he pronounces [as do tens of millions of his countrymen] as "o-s"). When we discussed this, he cheerfully informed me that we really never can be sure exactly how native Sanskrit speakers pronounced their words." I once had a similar Bengali student. For some idiosyncractic reason, the thing that really got my goat was not his pronouncing "ph" as "f" but pronouncing kS as kkha, though that is a very ancient equivalence, as in yakSa/yakkha or jakkha. Allen May I add to this that, at least in Bangladesh, former east Bengal (and E. Pakistan), 'j's are ordinarily (not necessairly by elites) pronounced as zeds. Raajaa is pronounced Raazaa. I enjoyed learning how to pronounce words their way. There is so much more of interest in the Bengali pronunciation of, say, vishvavidyalaya, as "biishobiidaloi"; satya is shotto; as from Laalon Shah Fokiir: "aamaar mon shotto bon". It's a whole different world. Joanna K. From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Feb 17 20:11:25 2010 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 15:11:25 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088682.23782.10413081337893313927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "And, these lines, I always take pains to teach students to pronounce "phala" with an aspirated "p" sound, and not to confuse it with the "f" sound that is represented by "ph" in English (as in "nephew"). This year, however, I have a student (a native Bengali speaker) who pronounces it as as "fala". I hesitate to "correct" him (I spend enough time trying to "get" his pronunciation of initial "a"-s which, of course, he pronounces [as do tens of millions of his countrymen] as "o-s"). When we discussed this, he cheerfully informed me that we really never can be sure exactly how native Sanskrit speakers pronounced their words." I once had a similar Bengali student. For some idiosyncractic reason, the thing that really got my goat was not his pronouncing "ph" as "f" but pronouncing kS as kkha, though that is a very ancient equivalence, as in yakSa/yakkha or jakkha. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Wed Feb 17 15:40:07 2010 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 16:40:07 +0100 Subject: Intensive Course in P=?utf-8?Q?=C4=81li?= Grammar and Syntax Message-ID: <161227088655.23782.7945101892151417393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am pleased to announce that an Intensive Course in P?li Grammar and Syntax will be held at the Indology Department of Martin Luther University Halle (Saale) from September 6th to 17th, 2010: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/aktuelles/poster_pali.pdf This course, comprising an introduction into P?li grammar and syntax as well as the reading of the P?timokkhasutta and the Ka?kh?vitara??, will be taught by Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz (Weimar). The medium of teaching will be German. All those interested in the course are most welcome and kindly asked to register by July 1, 2010. The timing allows to attend the immediately following German Oriental Studies Congress (DOT) in Marburg (20-24 September). More details are available on our website: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/aktuelles/index.htm Please do pass on this message to anyone possibly interested. Contact: PD Dr. Annette Schmiedchen Dr. Katrin Einicke annette.schmiedchen at indologie.uni-halle.de katrin.einicke at indologie.uni-halle.de +49-(0)345/ 55 23650 +49-(0)345/ 55 23656 Kindly regarding, Walter Slaje ------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Wed Feb 17 15:51:02 2010 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 16:51:02 +0100 Subject: Intensive Course in Vedic Grammar and Syntax Message-ID: <161227088660.23782.14026681088994185588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am pleased to announce that an Intensive Course in Vedic Grammar and Syntax ("Indian Summer in Halle 2010") will be held at the Indology Department of Martin Luther University Halle (Saale) from September 27th to October 8th, 2010: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/aktuelles/poster_veda.pdf The course, comprising an introduction into Vedic grammar and syntax as well as the reading of Vedic hymns and prose, will be taught by Dr. Werner Knobl (Kyoto). The medium of teaching will be German. All those interested in the course are most welcome and kindly asked to register by July 1, 2010. Further details are available on our website: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/aktuelles/index.htm The classes start just after the German Oriental Studies Congress (DOT) in Marburg (20-24 September). More details are available on our website: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/aktuelles/index.htm Please do pass on this message to anyone possibly interested. Contact: PD Dr. Annette Schmiedchen Dr. Katrin Einicke annette.schmiedchen at indologie.uni-halle.de katrin.einicke at indologie.uni-halle.de +49-(0)345/ 55 23650 +49-(0)345/ 55 23656 Kindly regarding, Walter Slaje ------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From ingeardagum at YAHOO.CO.UK Wed Feb 17 20:15:37 2010 From: ingeardagum at YAHOO.CO.UK (Benjamin Slade) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 20:15:37 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088684.23782.10392978191856185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The pronunciation of "f" for "ph" is a wide-spread phenomenon among (some) speakers of Indo-Aryan languages; e.g. Hindu/Urdu _phal_ "fruit" is sometimes rendered by native Hindi speakers as _fal_, _phir_ "then" as _fir_, _phul_ "flower" rendered as _ful_ (Hindi films like to play with the resulting homophony with the English borrowing _ful_ "fool"...). As far as I can tell, these are all hypercorrections: Indo-Aryan languages don't 'natively' possess the phone "f", but many borrowings from Perso-Arabic (and, later, of course, English) do, e.g. Hindi _faislaa_ "decision" (< Persian), _fon_ "phone" (from English). Speakers of rural dialects tend to approximate all of these "f"s as "ph"s, thus _phaislaa_, _phon_. More 'sophisticated' speakers usually render these properly as "f"s, but sometimes at the cost of 'converting' all "ph"s to "f"s: thus _fal_ for _phal_, _ful_ for _phul_ etc. ------------------------------------------------- Benjamin Slade Dept. of Linguistics University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign email: bslade at illinois.edu website: http://www.jnanam.net/slade/ lingblog: St?fcr?ft & Vyakarana - http://staefcraeft.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ From: Herman Tull To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Wed, 17 February, 2010 13:03:00 Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi This is irresistible, but speaking of "h"-s there is that little matter of the transformation of the Sanskrit "s" to the Persian "h"--not an "error" at all, or is it? And, these lines, I always take pains to teach students to pronounce "phala" with an aspirated "p" sound, and not to confuse it with the "f" sound that is represented by "ph" in English (as in "nephew"). This year, however, I have a student (a native Bengali speaker) who pronounces it as as "fala". I hesitate to "correct" him (I spend enough time trying to "get" his pronunciation of initial "a"-s which, of course, he pronounces [as do tens of millions of his countrymen] as "o-s"). When we discussed this, he cheerfully informed me that we really never can be sure exactly how native Sanskrit speakers pronounced their words. By the way, I've brought to the attention of my introductory Sanskrit class some of the central elements of this topic (no names of course). It led to a lively class discussion--in fact, much to my regret (and my students' glee), we barely had time for our translation work. regards, Herman -------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard P. Hayes" Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 12:38 PM To: Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi > On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 11:44 -0500, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > >> "And then there was the apparently universal habit among news >> commentators of speaking of "Ra-ZHeev" Gandhi. My theory is that the zh >> for j was borrowed from French ("jeune"), and sounded nice and exotic, >> while plain old j didn't have that same satisfying ring." > > It occurs to me that a similar consideration may account for the > misplacement of 'h' in many Indic words as spelled by Americans, e.g., > Ghandi and Buddah. After all, 'h' is silent in Spanish and French (the > two languages other than English that Americans are most likely to know > or at least know something about), so it must be silent in all foreign > languages. And if a letter is silent, it really doesn't matter where one > puts it, right? > > Of course, Americans know that 'h' sometimes is part of a digraphic > representation of a single sound, so American Ayurvedic aficionados will > talk about their kapha (kaffa), and Yankee yogis will practice their > hatha (where 'th' is pronounced as in 'think'). > > Sorry for being precious again, Matthew. It's hard to resist having fun > at the expense of Americans. > > > -- Richard Philip Hayes > Department of Philosophy > (What a nice bundle of words with 'h', eh?) > From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Wed Feb 17 14:49:32 2010 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 20:19:32 +0530 Subject: Sanskrit song by a Chinese singer In-Reply-To: <3AF9B038A6B07641B36C799ED4EBB0D704D34C3325@ITCS-ECLS-1-VS3.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227088650.23782.7296931441024175938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It's rather easier if you start with this one, since it has subtitles (the pronunciation and transliteration knock all the variants of Benares into a cocked hat !) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-W84T_lMNY&feature=related On 17 Feb 2010, at 19:41, Deshpande, Madhav wrote: > While we are on pronunciation of Sanskrit, someone sent me the > Youtube link for a Sanskrit song sung by a Chinese pop-singer. Here > is the link: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvQf4JIimzM > > I would appreciate if someone can figure out the Sanskrit words/ > sounds she is singing. The first word seems to be something like > "nama?". Best > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics > Department of Asian Languages and Cultures > 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 > The University of Michigan > Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA > ________________________________________ > From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Gary Tubb [tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU > ] > Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:06 AM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi > > Dominik, we may be dealing here with, more precisely, English word > rhythm choices earmarked for attacking foreign words. In speaking to > earlier generations of students, I used to call this the "Art Fleming > syndrome." Art Fleming was the host of the television quiz show > "Jeopardy" throughout most of the '60's and '70's, and among his many > charms was the notorious practice of pronouncing every unfamiliar > foreign word as if it were Spanish (actually Spanish with an American > English accent, which would have him pronounce words like Ramayana and > Mahabharata with the stress on the penultimate syllable, but with a > non-Spanish reduction of the preceding vowel). Mr. Fleming did this > with such confidence (following the advice of another great American > showman, P.T. Barnum: "If you don't know how to pronounce a word, > say it > LOUD") that he probably helped millions feel reassured in indulging > the > same instinct. > > What causes speakers of North Indian languages such as Hindi to make a > similar shift in some English place names, such as "amriikaa" for > "America"? Has Portuguese or some other language intervened in the > history of this word? > > --G. > > Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >> Some notes on English word stress rules: >> >> http://www.englishclub.com/pronunciation/word-stress-rules.htm >> >> >> D >> From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Wed Feb 17 19:38:39 2010 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 10 20:38:39 +0100 Subject: "La roue tourne" (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088676.23782.13611963360271884869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Herman, Cher Herman, thanks a lot for sharing your deeply felt experience with your students (and especially with the student from Bengal) Since the discussion has become very "non-academic," please allow me to use my full linguistic capacity (in French) for adding some further comments {{otherwise, we, native French citizen, would become second zone World citizens :-(( }} merci de partager votre/ton exp?rience avec vos/tes ?tudiants. [[By using the slash ["/"]sign, I am trying to overcome one of the translation gaps between English and French :-) ]] C'est tr?s touchant! "La roue tourne", sans jamais s'arr?ter! Qui peut savoir comment les propos que nous avons ?chang?s ces derniers jours seront interpr?t?s plus tard, par les archivistes du monde? Peut-?tre que le souvenir d'enfance (? Khartoum) que Dominik Wujastyk a partag? r?cemment avec nous sera utilis? plus tard par un historien (a historical linguist) pour prouver que certains ?gyptiens ont entendu parler de "La Tamise" avant d'entendre parler de "The Thames". [[(I am referring to the comparison /thaymees/ (like "rabies")]] Comme l'a dit Blaise Pascal, le monde est quelque chose "dont le centre est partout et la circonf?rence nulle part". There is nothing wrong with that !! Cheers -- Jean-Luc (Paris, France) Le 2/17/2010 8:03 PM, Herman Tull a ?crit : > This is irresistible, but speaking of "h"-s there is that little > matter of the transformation of the Sanskrit "s" to the Persian > "h"--not an "error" at all, or is it? > > And, these lines, I always take pains to teach students to pronounce > "phala" with an aspirated "p" sound, and not to confuse it with the > "f" sound that is represented by "ph" in English (as in "nephew"). > This year, however, I have a student (a native Bengali speaker) who > pronounces it as as "fala". I hesitate to "correct" him (I spend > enough time trying to "get" his pronunciation of initial "a"-s which, > of course, he pronounces [as do tens of millions of his countrymen] as > "o-s"). When we discussed this, he cheerfully informed me that we > really never can be sure exactly how native Sanskrit speakers > pronounced their words. > > By the way, I've brought to the attention of my introductory Sanskrit > class some of the central elements of this topic (no names of > course). It led to a lively class discussion--in fact, much to my > regret (and my students' glee), we barely had time for our translation > work. > > regards, > > Herman > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Richard P. Hayes" > Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 12:38 PM > To: > Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi > >> On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 11:44 -0500, Allen W Thrasher wrote: >> >>> "And then there was the apparently universal habit among news >>> commentators of speaking of "Ra-ZHeev" Gandhi. My theory is that the zh >>> for j was borrowed from French ("jeune"), and sounded nice and exotic, >>> while plain old j didn't have that same satisfying ring." >> >> It occurs to me that a similar consideration may account for the >> misplacement of 'h' in many Indic words as spelled by Americans, e.g., >> Ghandi and Buddah. After all, 'h' is silent in Spanish and French (the >> two languages other than English that Americans are most likely to know >> or at least know something about), so it must be silent in all foreign >> languages. And if a letter is silent, it really doesn't matter where one >> puts it, right? >> >> Of course, Americans know that 'h' sometimes is part of a digraphic >> representation of a single sound, so American Ayurvedic aficionados will >> talk about their kapha (kaffa), and Yankee yogis will practice their >> hatha (where 'th' is pronounced as in 'think'). >> >> Sorry for being precious again, Matthew. It's hard to resist having fun >> at the expense of Americans. >> >> >> -- >> Richard Philip Hayes >> Department of Philosophy >> (What a nice bundle of words with 'h', eh?) >> > From wedemeyer at UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Feb 18 16:41:53 2010 From: wedemeyer at UCHICAGO.EDU (Christian K. Wedemeyer) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 10 10:41:53 -0600 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <732128.80942.qm@web23101.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227088689.23782.15849341925431261719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Feb 17, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Benjamin Slade wrote: > The pronunciation of "f" for "ph" is a wide-spread phenomenon among > (some) speakers of Indo-Aryan languages; e.g. Hindu/Urdu _phal_ > "fruit" is sometimes rendered by native Hindi speakers as _fal_, > _phir_ "then" as _fir_, _phul_ "flower" rendered as _ful_ (Hindi > films like to play with the resulting homophony with the English > borrowing _ful_ "fool"...).As far as I can tell, these are all > hypercorrections: (I'm not a linguist, so excuse any clumsiness:) But, are these labiodental fricatives, like the English f, or bilabial (as, for instance, in Japanese)? I would suspect the bilabial version (which is what I have heard, I believe, in Northern India and Nepal), which is similar in articulation to a voiceless aspirated labial. In that case, rather than "hypercorrection," might this perhaps be due to a more general, systemic phonetic change (possibly stimulated by contact with Perso-Arabic speakers)? Or is this not a useful distinction? (Sorry, I'm with Allen...gotta get some more coffee...) -- Christian K. Wedemeyer Assistant Professor of the History of Religions University of Chicago Divinity School 1025 E 58th Street Chicago, IL 60637 P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. This email is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of this email message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and destroy/delete all copies of the transmittal. Thank you From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Feb 18 18:58:36 2010 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 10 13:58:36 -0500 Subject: Clay Sanskrt Lirary (Was: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088697.23782.7293663446554463837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Gombrich, If no more works are to be added to the series, are there at least provisions for keeping the books in print indefinitely, along the lines of the Loeb and I Tatti series? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Feb 18 19:52:26 2010 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 10 14:52:26 -0500 Subject: Clay Sanskrt Lirary (Was: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <2D470FA1-8855-4C91-9DD2-78919156F4AE@balliol.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227088702.23782.15452135516756517103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks. Allen >>> Richard Gombrich 2/18/2010 2:08 PM >>> I am sorry to have to tell you that I have absolutely no connection nowadays with the Clay Sanskrit Library and simply do not know the answer to your important question. It is possible that Prof Sheldon Pollock is better informed, as he remained employed for some time after I left. Richard Gombrich On 18 Feb 2010, at 18:58, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Prof. Gombrich, > > If no more works are to be added to the series, are there at least > provisions for keeping the books in print indefinitely, along the > lines of the Loeb and I Tatti series? > > Allen > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the > Library of Congress. From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Thu Feb 18 19:55:25 2010 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (george thompson) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 10 14:55:25 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088704.23782.9903303432224224983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, I am glad, Richard, that my post gave you a good laugh. It was surely a little too vehement for such a small topic [pedagogical rather than scholarly, after all], but my point, I think, still stands. I think that John Clay's ambition was admirable, and I think that the translations that have been produced as a result of his ambition have generally been of high quality. So I do not say that the Clay Sanskrit Library is a failure. But I do think that the decision to to create this alternative transciption system, entirely artificial and surely confusing to the new user, was a mistake. As you yourself say, the readers interested in correct transcription and pronunciation of the Sanskrit text were "only a very small minority." Sanskritists [even beginning ones] will of course glance over to the left hand page. But since such readers were "only a small minority" [and who therefore probably did not need the extra help] maybe it would have been wiser to attend more thoughtfully to the needs of the vast majority of your readership -- i.e. those readers who either would not make the effort to glance to the left hand page, or who, even if they did, would be unsure of what they were looking for or seeing. I disagree that the typical uninformed non-Sanskritist [the majority of your audience] would have an easy time with the diacritical formating of the Clay Sanskrit Library, because the left-hand page operates with one system, whereas the right hand page operates with another one. Honestly, I think that I know the majority of your audience better than you do. Cheers! George Richard Gombrich wrote: > I am a former General Editor of the Clay Sanskrit Library. Because > of its sudden unforeseen demise just over two years ago, it is a > painful subject. However, at least George Thompson's posting has > given me a good laugh. > > It was John Clay's ambition to introduce classical Sanskrit > literature to a wider public, and we have ample evidence that in this > aim he was far from unsuccessful. A scholarly man, unusually well > endowed with common sense and experience of the wider world, he > argued that the failure to reach a wider public must largely be laid > at the door of Sanskritists themselves, who refused to offer the > world books which ordinary educated people could regard as readable. > He was joined by a fair number of Sanskritists, many of them young, > who were or became convinced that he was right. The collapse of the > series had absolutely nothing to do with this issue. > > George Thompson is correct: the Clay programme did not include > Vedic. Therefore the need to have regard for conventions in > transliterating Vedic is not obvious to me. We also left the > conventions for transliterating modern Indian languages, e.g. Hindi, > out of consideration. > > Our conventions for transliterating Sanskrit names might have been > different had the normal scholarly transliteration not been on show a > couple of inches to the left. The reader interested in such matters > -- and we have ample evidence that they constituted only a very small > minority, sad though this may be -- were deemed to be capable of > moving the direction of their gaze by that very small distance. > Since the names began with capital letters on the left-hand page as > well, no one could possibly miss them. We thus found a remarkably > economical way of conveying a lot of information: it is very easy for > anyone to garner full information about the pronunciation of every > Sanskrit name, while those who do not care about that are at least > nudged into pronouncing the name with a correct stress. > > Richard Gombrich > > > On 17 Feb 2010, at 03:06, george thompson wrote: > >> With regard to Dominik's last point: >> >>> There's lots to discuss about the various Clay decisions, but one >>> thing I >>> quite like is the use of the acute accent to mark stress or ictus. >>> While >>> ictus isn't the same as vowel length, it's pretty close to >>> gauravam, and >>> people who know nothing of Sanskrit and don't have access to a >>> teacher do >>> rather well reading such accented words out loud. >>> >>> Best, >>> Dominik >>> >>> >>> >> Agreed. But I am a Vedicist who spends most of his time working on >> accented Vedic texts like the Rigveda. So for me at least this use of >> the acute accent marker is disconcerting, since Vedicists need to mark >> both long and short vowels as well as pitch. I think that the best way >> to go, in general, is to start with the very simple and easy >> distinction >> between short and long vowels. The Clay system does not do that. In >> fact, the Clay program doesn't do Vedic at all. >> >> What does that mean? >> >> In my view, the Clay Library system of transliteration is an arbitrary >> and a completely unsuccessful failure. >> >> Is 'Rama' [with or without acute accent] reallly better than 'Raama?' >> Is 'Sita' an acceptable equivalent for 'Siitaa'? >> >> Is 'Praja-pati' okay in any sense? >> >> You will find all of these ghastly forms and many more in the Clay >> editions. >> >> What is wrong with using long and short vowel markers instead? >> Sincerely, I think that the alternative is absurd. >> >> Best wishes >> George > > From richard.gombrich at BALLIOL.OX.AC.UK Thu Feb 18 16:46:46 2010 From: richard.gombrich at BALLIOL.OX.AC.UK (Richard Gombrich) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 10 16:46:46 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <4B7B5D21.60706@comcast.net> Message-ID: <161227088692.23782.7147998817940045094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am a former General Editor of the Clay Sanskrit Library. Because of its sudden unforeseen demise just over two years ago, it is a painful subject. However, at least George Thompson's posting has given me a good laugh. It was John Clay's ambition to introduce classical Sanskrit literature to a wider public, and we have ample evidence that in this aim he was far from unsuccessful. A scholarly man, unusually well endowed with common sense and experience of the wider world, he argued that the failure to reach a wider public must largely be laid at the door of Sanskritists themselves, who refused to offer the world books which ordinary educated people could regard as readable. He was joined by a fair number of Sanskritists, many of them young, who were or became convinced that he was right. The collapse of the series had absolutely nothing to do with this issue. George Thompson is correct: the Clay programme did not include Vedic. Therefore the need to have regard for conventions in transliterating Vedic is not obvious to me. We also left the conventions for transliterating modern Indian languages, e.g. Hindi, out of consideration. Our conventions for transliterating Sanskrit names might have been different had the normal scholarly transliteration not been on show a couple of inches to the left. The reader interested in such matters -- and we have ample evidence that they constituted only a very small minority, sad though this may be -- were deemed to be capable of moving the direction of their gaze by that very small distance. Since the names began with capital letters on the left-hand page as well, no one could possibly miss them. We thus found a remarkably economical way of conveying a lot of information: it is very easy for anyone to garner full information about the pronunciation of every Sanskrit name, while those who do not care about that are at least nudged into pronouncing the name with a correct stress. Richard Gombrich On 17 Feb 2010, at 03:06, george thompson wrote: > With regard to Dominik's last point: > >> There's lots to discuss about the various Clay decisions, but one >> thing I >> quite like is the use of the acute accent to mark stress or ictus. >> While >> ictus isn't the same as vowel length, it's pretty close to >> gauravam, and >> people who know nothing of Sanskrit and don't have access to a >> teacher do >> rather well reading such accented words out loud. >> >> Best, >> Dominik >> >> >> > Agreed. But I am a Vedicist who spends most of his time working on > accented Vedic texts like the Rigveda. So for me at least this use of > the acute accent marker is disconcerting, since Vedicists need to mark > both long and short vowels as well as pitch. I think that the best > way > to go, in general, is to start with the very simple and easy > distinction > between short and long vowels. The Clay system does not do that. In > fact, the Clay program doesn't do Vedic at all. > > What does that mean? > > In my view, the Clay Library system of transliteration is an arbitrary > and a completely unsuccessful failure. > > Is 'Rama' [with or without acute accent] reallly better than 'Raama?' > Is 'Sita' an acceptable equivalent for 'Siitaa'? > > Is 'Praja-pati' okay in any sense? > > You will find all of these ghastly forms and many more in the Clay > editions. > > What is wrong with using long and short vowel markers instead? > Sincerely, I think that the alternative is absurd. > > Best wishes > George From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 18 16:56:12 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 10 17:56:12 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088694.23782.9637302321832708145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 17 February 2010 20:03, Herman Tull wrote: > When we discussed this, he cheerfully informed me that we really never can > be sure exactly how native Sanskrit speakers pronounced their words. > You can cheerfully inform him back that we have a pretty good idea, since phonetics was invented in India, two millennia ago. He might like W. S. Allen's classic Phonetics in ancient India . It's great that this all gave your class an enjoyable discussion! Dominik From richard.gombrich at BALLIOL.OX.AC.UK Thu Feb 18 19:08:06 2010 From: richard.gombrich at BALLIOL.OX.AC.UK (Richard Gombrich) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 10 19:08:06 +0000 Subject: Clay Sanskrt Lirary (Was: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <4B7D478C0200003A00077800@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227088699.23782.16075464211206646731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sorry to have to tell you that I have absolutely no connection nowadays with the Clay Sanskrit Library and simply do not know the answer to your important question. It is possible that Prof Sheldon Pollock is better informed, as he remained employed for some time after I left. Richard Gombrich On 18 Feb 2010, at 18:58, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Prof. Gombrich, > > If no more works are to be added to the series, are there at least > provisions for keeping the books in print indefinitely, along the > lines of the Loeb and I Tatti series? > > Allen > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the > Library of Congress. From bloturco at CENTOPER.IT Fri Feb 19 09:13:43 2010 From: bloturco at CENTOPER.IT (Bruno Lo Turco) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 10 10:13:43 +0100 Subject: help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227088706.23782.15764636593607598502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> help From jim at KHECARI.COM Fri Feb 19 12:11:50 2010 From: jim at KHECARI.COM (James Mallinson) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 10 12:11:50 +0000 Subject: Skandapur=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=81=E1=B9=87a_p=C4=81=C5=9Bupatayoga?= In-Reply-To: <8B882BE5-1EAC-4C18-81DF-2015B0B46B39@ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227088709.23782.17576168132642257942.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Peter, I hope all is well with you. I guess your kids are quite grown up by now. We had another girl, Willa, last summer so are back in the thick of things. Teething has begun! Oh well, she is wonderful all the same. Jason Birch recently passed on your transcription of the P??upata yoga section of the Skandapur??a. Fascinating stuff. If it's ok with you I'd like to refer to it in an article I'm working on and also in a book I'm preparing (I hope to have the first draft ready by the end of the summer, but that might just be a dream...). So I'm writing to confirm that this is ok with you. All the best, Jim From jim at KHECARI.COM Fri Feb 19 12:23:49 2010 From: jim at KHECARI.COM (James Mallinson) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 10 12:23:49 +0000 Subject: Skandapur=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=81=E1=B9=87a_p=C4=81=C5=9Bupatayoga?= In-Reply-To: <43432F6A-1A02-476F-BD88-497637E51151@khecari.com> Message-ID: <161227088711.23782.326749657855620736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apologies to all for the wrongly addressed private message, Jim From ingeardagum at YAHOO.CO.UK Fri Feb 19 22:28:42 2010 From: ingeardagum at YAHOO.CO.UK (Benjamin Slade) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 10 14:28:42 -0800 Subject: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi In-Reply-To: <3A9D56AD-6E6A-4CC4-9F3F-3E2C12EA538B@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227088713.23782.4781240622847192033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> All of the speakers I'm familiar with who produce "f", produce it as a labiodental fricative (as in English). Many Nepali speakers don't produce "f" at all (but rather "ph"), but those who do again seem to produce it as a labiodental. If it is the case that "ph" for some speakers is becoming a bilabial fricative, this would indeed be distinct from "hypercorrection". --B. From: Christian K. Wedemeyer To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Thu, 18 February, 2010 10:41:53 Subject: Re: INDOLOGY FAQ. Re. Varanasi On Feb 17, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Benjamin Slade wrote: > The pronunciation of "f" for "ph" is a wide-spread phenomenon among (some) speakers of Indo-Aryan languages; e.g. Hindu/Urdu _phal_ "fruit" is sometimes rendered by native Hindi speakers as _fal_, _phir_ "then" as _fir_, _phul_ "flower" rendered as _ful_ (Hindi films like to play with the resulting homophony with the English borrowing _ful_ "fool"...).As far as I can tell, these are all hypercorrections: (I'm not a linguist, so excuse any clumsiness:) But, are these labiodental fricatives, like the English f, or bilabial (as, for instance, in Japanese)? I would suspect the bilabial version (which is what I have heard, I believe, in Northern India and Nepal), which is similar in articulation to a voiceless aspirated labial. In that case, rather than "hypercorrection," might this perhaps be due to a more general, systemic phonetic change (possibly stimulated by contact with Perso-Arabic speakers)? Or is this not a useful distinction? (Sorry, I'm with Allen...gotta get some more coffee...) -- Christian K. Wedemeyer Assistant Professor of the History of Religions University of Chicago Divinity School 1025 E 58th Street Chicago, IL 60637 P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. This email is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of this email message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and destroy/delete all copies of the transmittal. Thank you From h.arganisjuarez at YAHOO.COM.MX Sat Feb 20 22:32:17 2010 From: h.arganisjuarez at YAHOO.COM.MX (Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 10 14:32:17 -0800 Subject: Can you help with Sanskrit translation? In-Reply-To: <33C5E45B-D137-47B4-9DD8-171D92021B17@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <161227088718.23782.15110644906943847224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professors: Can you helpme with this transletion. Because some of my friends ask me this: We want to name him Kiran, but cannot find the exact Sanskrit translation. "Kiran das" can be found on lists with names of devotees of Krishna, but the meaning is never specified. Doing a search in Google brings up "Ray of Light", "Beam of Light", "Ray of the Sun", "Sun light", "Moon Light" etc. Some times you can also find the name "Adhi Kiran das" (perhaps meaning the origin of the sun light, but hey ... I don't know, I'm just guessing:)? Does anybody know what it means exactly in Sanskrit, and perhaps in what context it is typically used linguistically? If someone would cut it up in pieces, analyze it and feed it to me with a spoon Lic. M.A. Horacio Francisco Arganis Ju?rez Catedr?tico Investigador de la Universidad Internacional Euroamericana. Departamento de Filosof?a y Religi?n Comparada. Miembro del Instituto de Estudios Filos?ficos de Saltillo A. C. www.uie.edu.es --- El s?b 20-feb-10, Michael Witzel escribi?: De:: Michael Witzel Asunto: Summer School: Intro to Sanskrit A: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Fecha: s?bado, 20 de febrero de 2010, 20:36 As for last 20 years, a Sanskrit? introductory course? will again be taught as part of the Harvard Summer School, from June 21 to August 6 (final exam). For details please see: Registration (and request for housing) start Feb. 22: General information: See you in late June! M. WItzel ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line:? 617- 496 2990 Encuentra las mejores recetas en Yahoo! Cocina. http://mx.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Feb 20 20:36:19 2010 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 10 15:36:19 -0500 Subject: Summer School: Intro to Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227088716.23782.17202093107650071449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As for last 20 years, a Sanskrit introductory course will again be taught as part of the Harvard Summer School, from June 21 to August 6 (final exam). For details please see: Registration (and request for housing) start Feb. 22: General information: See you in late June! M. WItzel ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line: 617- 496 2990 From eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM Sun Feb 21 04:39:17 2010 From: eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 10 20:39:17 -0800 Subject: Can you help with Sanskrit translation? In-Reply-To: <499579.93049.qm@web45609.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227088721.23782.15112925431910292103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kiran - more properly kiraNa - means a beam of light usually Das is a surname that means servant. It is commonly taken by followers of the Vaishnava Bhakti path. It means 'servant of god' to indicate humility and not a lower class type of servant. Best, Dean Michael Anderson --- On Sun, 2/21/10, Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez wrote: From: Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez Subject: Can you help with Sanskrit translation? To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 4:02 AM Dear Professors: Can you helpme with this transletion. Because some of my friends ask me this: We want to name him Kiran, but cannot find the exact Sanskrit translation. "Kiran das" can be found on lists with names of devotees of Krishna, but the meaning is never specified. Doing a search in Google brings up "Ray of Light", "Beam of Light", "Ray of the Sun", "Sun light", "Moon Light" etc. Some times you can also find the name "Adhi Kiran das" (perhaps meaning the origin of the sun light, but hey ... I don't know, I'm just guessing:)? Does anybody know what it means exactly in Sanskrit, and perhaps in what context it is typically used linguistically? If someone would cut it up in pieces, analyze it and feed it to me with a spoon Lic. M.A. Horacio Francisco Arganis Ju?rez Catedr?tico Investigador de la Universidad Internacional Euroamericana. Departamento de Filosof?a y Religi?n Comparada. Miembro del Instituto de Estudios Filos?ficos de Saltillo A. C. www.uie.edu.es --- El s?b 20-feb-10, Michael Witzel escribi?: De:: Michael Witzel Asunto: Summer School: Intro to Sanskrit A: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Fecha: s?bado, 20 de febrero de 2010, 20:36 As for last 20 years, a Sanskrit? introductory course? will again be taught as part of the Harvard Summer School, from June 21 to August 6 (final exam). For details please see: Registration (and request for housing) start Feb. 22: General information: See you in late June! M. WItzel ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line:? 617- 496 2990 ? ? ? Encuentra las mejores recetas en Yahoo! Cocina.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? http://mx.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sun Feb 21 04:59:02 2010 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 10 10:29:02 +0530 Subject: Can you help with Sanskrit translation? In-Reply-To: <499579.93049.qm@web45609.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227088724.23782.7182459668937932517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ? Dear friend You have yourself given the answer. According to the existing view kiran is an NIA word derived from Sanskrit ???? kira?a meaning ?ray?. It derives from the root ?? : k? ?stem ???? : kir? 'to scatter'. ??????? Adhikiran? is not known to me as a Sanskrit word, It could be an NIA development with uninherited meaning. The title Das ?servant? is often adopted by Vashnavas in the sense of ?servant of God?. Does this help? Best wishes DB ? ? --- On Sun, 21/2/10, Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez wrote: From: Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez Subject: Can you help with Sanskrit translation? To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 21 February, 2010, 4:02 AM Dear Professors: Can you helpme with this transletion. Because some of my friends ask me this: We want to name him Kiran, but cannot find the exact Sanskrit translation. "Kiran das" can be found on lists with names of devotees of Krishna, but the meaning is never specified. Doing a search in Google brings up "Ray of Light", "Beam of Light", "Ray of the Sun", "Sun light", "Moon Light" etc. Some times you can also find the name "Adhi Kiran das" (perhaps meaning the origin of the sun light, but hey ... I don't know, I'm just guessing:)? Does anybody know what it means exactly in Sanskrit, and perhaps in what context it is typically used linguistically? If someone would cut it up in pieces, analyze it and feed it to me with a spoon Lic. M.A. Horacio Francisco Arganis Ju?rez Catedr?tico Investigador de la Universidad Internacional Euroamericana. Departamento de Filosof?a y Religi?n Comparada. Miembro del Instituto de Estudios Filos?ficos de Saltillo A. C. www.uie.edu.es --- El s?b 20-feb-10, Michael Witzel escribi?: De:: Michael Witzel Asunto: Summer School: Intro to Sanskrit A: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Fecha: s?bado, 20 de febrero de 2010, 20:36 As for last 20 years, a Sanskrit? introductory course? will again be taught as part of the Harvard Summer School, from June 21 to August 6 (final exam). For details please see: Registration (and request for housing) start Feb. 22: General information: See you in late June! M. WItzel ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line:? 617- 496 2990 ? ? ? Encuentra las mejores recetas en Yahoo! Cocina.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? http://mx.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/ From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Sun Feb 21 12:32:12 2010 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 10 12:32:12 +0000 Subject: Fwd: FW: Online petition for BMGS at King's In-Reply-To: <2BD9CE9BB835644993476FB8AF59A90C03E88AA6@exch-db-01.CC.rhul.local> Message-ID: <161227088726.23782.15398178314093030908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Further disasters at King's College London. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Zipser, Barbara Date: 20 February 2010 18:03 Subject: FW: Online petition for BMGS at King's To: ucgavnu at ucl.ac.uk, Alessia , Chris < cmp22222 at aol.com>, Lorenzo , rm.piccione at gmx.de, claudia.stein at warwick.ac.uk, Dominik Dear all, they are trying to destroy Byzantine studies at King's. Please have a look at the petition and spread the word! Best wishes, Barbara ________________________________ From: Eastmond, Antony [mailto:Antony.Eastmond at courtauld.ac.uk ] Sent: 18 February 2010 10:29 Subject: FW: Online petition for BMGS at King's Dear Byzantinists & Medievalists, King's College London is proposing to dismember the Byzantine and Modern Greek Department and disperse its members among other departments. This will severely undermine the past decades of work carried out by successive chairs and lecturers to build up this major centre for research in the UK. Marc Lauxtermann has begun an on-line petition which we urge you to sign. The SPBS will continue to campaign, and welcomes any suggestions as to how to maximize its impact. The url is: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/sdbmgs10/petition.html. Please pass this on to all who may be interested. Antony Eastmond Secretary, Society for the Promotion of Byzantine Studies BEDLAM: Byzantine Email Distribution List And Mailing please send all messages for BEDLAM to antony.eastmond at courtauld.ac.uk < mailto:antony.eastmond at courtauld.ac.uk >