Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?

[Robert Goldman]

 In the VAlmIki RAmAyaNa (critical ed.) at 6. 105. the gods praise Rama as the Primal Being etc. Among many other things they tell him (6.105.20), “You support all beings as well as the earth with all its mountains.” (tvaM dhArayasi bhUtAni vasudhAM ca saparvatAm) The commentator MahezvaratIrtha (ca. 15th century) sees this as a reference to ViSNu in the form of the primal tortoise, remarking, “Now they praise (him) as the primal tortoise. (saMpraty AdikUrmAtmanA stauti). This may perhaps be a reference to the KUrmAvatAra which was mentioned by John but there it is, as he notes,  only Mt. Mandara that is supported and not the entire earth. For what it is worth MahezvaratIrtha evidently has in mind a single tortoise that supports the whole earth.

Best,

Bob Goldman

Dr. R. P.  Goldman
Professor of Sanskrit
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
MC # 2540
The University of California at Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720-2540
Tel: 510-642-4089
Fax: 510-642-2409

 


On Apr 2, 2010, at 2:04 PM, J L Brockington wrote:

> Extracts from my note in FLS News: Newsletter of the Folklore Society 23, June 1996, p. 6 [in response to W.M.S. Russell, ?How many elephants??, FLS News 21, June 1995, p. 7] --
> 
> "The number four is in fact the standard one for this grouping of mythical elephants ... .  They are guardians of the compass points, and so either four or sometimes eight in number. ...  E.W. Hopkins is fully justified in asserting in relation to the epic material: "There is no myth of a world-upholding elephant" (Epic Mythology, Strassburg, Trübner, 1915, p. 17).  ...
>   The most widespread Hindu cosmography is based on the myth of the churning of the ocean, found in the Br?hma?as (e.g. ?atapatha Br?hma?a 3.2.4.1-6), the epics (e.g. Mah?bh?rata 1.15-17) and the Pur??as (e.g. Matsya Pur??a 249-251).  Here there is no mention of elephants, but Mt Meru is used as a churning stick or paddle to churn the ocean, and Vishnu takes the form of a tortoise (k?rma) on which Mt Meru is set, while the king of the snakes is used as the rope by which gods and Asura rotate the mountain.  At some stage the system of the four elephants of the quarters seems to have been conflated with this ... possibly in the Svayambh? Pur??? (a late Nepalese Pur??a); certainly it is not found in any of the major Pur??as."
> 
> John Brockington
> 
> 
> Professor J. L. Brockington
> Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
> Asian Studies
> 7-8 Buccleuch Place
> Edinburgh EH8 9LW
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Message from westerhoff at CANTAB.NET ---------
> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:21:46 +0100
> From: Jan Westerhoff <westerhoff at CANTAB.NET>
> Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> 
> 
>> Dear Colleagues,
>> 
>> in his "Essay Concerning Human Understanding" (1:391-92 of the Dover
>> edition) John Locke mentions an Indian who, "saying that the world was
>> supported by a great elephant, was asked what the elephant rested on; to
>> which his answer was, a great tortoise. But being again pressed to know
>> what gave support to the broad-backed tortoise, replied, something, he
>> knew not what."
>> 
>> I am wondering what the source of that cosmological theory is. (In more
>> contemporary versions involving a variety of scholars, including Bertrand
>> Russell and William James this has metamorphosed into an elephant
>> supported by a downward infinite series of turtles). I am aware of the
>> notion of the turtle-king (kuurmaraaja) supporting the world, as well as
>> of that of a set of four (according to the Raamaaya.na) or sixteen
>> (according to the Amarako.sa) elephants doing the same, but I have been
>> unable to trace any Indian authority describing a stacked elephant-turtle
>> support.
>> 
>> I would be most grateful for any suggestions you may have!
>> 
>> 
>> Yours
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Jan Westerhoff
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ***************************
>> JC Westerhoff
>> Department of Philosophy
>> University of Durham
>> 50 Old Elvet
>> Durham DH1 3HN
>> United Kingdom
>> 
>> www.janwesterhoff.net
>> westerhoff at cantab.net
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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