From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN  Thu Apr  1 03:58:44 2010
From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 10 09:28:44 +0530
Subject: "da=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da",_"halanta",_"vir_=C4=81ma",_"p=C5=ABr_=E1=B9=87a-vir=C4=81ma"_and__"ardha-vir=C4=81ma"?=
In-Reply-To: <6267F6CB-0B54-4FF7-9410-B99842E64AA1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227089076.23782.16641546074483063114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The confusion is partly caused by the transfer of connotation from spoken things to written things.
Vir?ma pertains to speech, a position is still valid for Sanskrit. The da?da is a written sign indicating where the vir?ma will occur; in modern usage vir?ma primarily means the written sign. But I have seen also the use of the compound vir?macihna.
Halanta means a consonant ending unit. The ? sign, say in ?????, indicates that the final sound is lone and not a syllable as in ????- . In Hindi halant may mean this sign. As far as my knowledge goes "p?r?a-vir?ma" and "ardha-vir?ma" are later terms used for the Sanskrit vir?ma and yati in connection with writing. 
Best
DB


--- On Thu, 1/4/10, Mrinal Kaul <mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:


From: Mrinal Kaul <mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: "da??a", "halanta", "vir ?ma", "p?r?a-vir?ma" and "ardha-vir?ma"
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Date: Thursday, 1 April, 2010, 4:35 AM


Dear Colleagues,

Can someone make the distinction among the following terms clear with some more historical elucidations in the context of Sanskrit language? What has been the practice as far as Sanskrit (and not Hindi) is concerned and how it it different from Hindi construction? Is "vir?ma" also used in Hindi language as synonymous to "da??a" ? And as far as Sanskrit language is concerned if "vir?ma" or "da??a" (?) is synonymous to "halanta" then why do we use "da??a" after putting the "halanta" to the last consonant of the word in a sentence? I think I am in a real confusion. I would really appreciate if someone could make a distinction amongst the following terms;

"da??a", "halanta", "vir?ma", "p?r?a-vir?ma" and "ardha-vir?ma" 


Thank you very much in advance.

Yours sincerely,

Mrinal Kaul


      The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/




From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Thu Apr  1 12:13:29 2010
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 10 14:13:29 +0200
Subject: "da=?UTF-8?Q?=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da",_"halanta",_"vir_=C4=81ma",_"p=C5=ABr=E1=B9=87a-vi_r=C4=81ma"_and_"ardha-vir=C4=81ma"?=
In-Reply-To: <6267F6CB-0B54-4FF7-9410-B99842E64AA1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227089079.23782.15982680179447387195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"halanta" is a compound word of "hal"+"anta", meaning "ending in hal".  And
"hal" is a technical term from Paninian grammar that is a special shorthand
code meaning "the consonants".  So "hal-anta" means "ending in a
consonant".  The term originally applied to speech, but has been transferred
to apply to writing, meaning the little subscript stroke or dash that
removes the vowel from a syllable sign.

"Da??a" just means "stick" and refers to the vertical bar or stick-like
stroke that markes the end of a piece of text.  Rather like a semicolon.
Two da??as mark a more definite ending, more like a full stop.  But their
usage is not set in stone.  Some manuscript scribes don't use them at all,
others use them in haphazard ways.  Etymologically, "da??a" may be cognate
with the Greek word "???????, dendron" meaning a tree (and Skt. d?ru, etc.
etc.).

Dominik

On 1 April 2010 01:05, Mrinal Kaul <mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Can someone make the distinction among the following terms clear with some
> more historical elucidations in the context of Sanskrit language? What has
> been the practice as far as Sanskrit (and not Hindi) is concerned and how it
> it different from Hindi construction? Is "vir?ma" also used in Hindi
> language as synonymous to "da??a" ? And as far as Sanskrit language is
> concerned if "vir?ma" or "da??a" (?) is synonymous to "halanta" then why do
> we use "da??a" after putting the "halanta" to the last consonant of the word
> in a sentence? I think I am in a real confusion. I would really appreciate
> if someone could make a distinction amongst the following terms;
>
>  "da??a", "halanta", "vir?ma", "p?r?a-vir?ma" and "ardha-vir?ma"
>
>
> Thank you very much in advance.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Mrinal Kaul




From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN  Thu Apr  1 17:15:35 2010
From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 10 22:45:35 +0530
Subject: Fw: Re:              "da=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da",_"halanta",_"vir_=C4=81ma",_"_p=C5=ABr_=E1=B9=87a-vir=C4=81ma"_and__"ardha-vir=C4=81ma"?=
Message-ID: <161227089081.23782.5318425707383889980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In continuation. P?r?acched/-vir?m (no thematisation in Hindi) seems to have been calqued on ?full-stop?. It may be that the single da??a at the end of the hemistisch and the double at the end of the fourth quarter had something to do with these terms. But one should not much mind?with Hindi technical terms. Things are in a state of flux and, perhaps, n?sau munir yasya mata? na bhinnam. No offence is meant.
Best 
DB
--- On Thu, 1/4/10, Dipak Bhattacharya <dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN> wrote:


From: Dipak Bhattacharya <dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN>
Subject: Re: "da??a", "halanta", "vir ?ma", "p?r ?a-vir?ma" and "ardha-vir?ma"
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Date: Thursday, 1 April, 2010, 9:28 AM


The confusion is partly caused by the transfer of connotation from spoken things to written things.
Vir?ma pertains to speech, a position?still valid for Sanskrit. The da?da is a written sign indicating where the vir?ma will occur; in modern usage vir?ma primarily means the written sign. But I have seen also the use of the compound vir?macihna.
Halanta means a consonant ending unit. The ? sign, say in ?????, indicates that the final sound is lone and not a syllable as in ????- . In Hindi halant may mean this sign. As far as my knowledge goes "p?r?a-vir?ma" and "ardha-vir?ma" are later terms used for the Sanskrit vir?ma and yati in connection with writing. 
Best
DB


--- On Thu, 1/4/10, Mrinal Kaul <mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:


From: Mrinal Kaul <mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: "da??a", "halanta", "vir ?ma", "p?r?a-vir?ma" and "ardha-vir?ma"
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Date: Thursday, 1 April, 2010, 4:35 AM


Dear Colleagues,

Can someone make the distinction among the following terms clear with some more historical elucidations in the context of Sanskrit language? What has been the practice as far as Sanskrit (and not Hindi) is concerned and how it it different from Hindi construction? Is "vir?ma" also used in Hindi language as synonymous to "da??a" ? And as far as Sanskrit language is concerned if "vir?ma" or "da??a" (?) is synonymous to "halanta" then why do we use "da??a" after putting the "halanta" to the last consonant of the word in a sentence? I think I am in a real confusion. I would really appreciate if someone could make a distinction amongst the following terms;

"da??a", "halanta", "vir?ma", "p?r?a-vir?ma" and "ardha-vir?ma" 


Thank you very much in advance.

Yours sincerely,

Mrinal Kaul


? ? ? The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/



      The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/




From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Apr  2 09:04:39 2010
From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 10 04:04:39 -0500
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <23398F2F-98A6-4C5C-A75D-1707FCA412DA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227089091.23782.12243761351902661067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Some negative evidence supporting Will Sweetman's
proposed genealogy of the story:

So far as I can see, Al Biruni (11th c.) knows nothing of this
tale, which, given his interest in Hindu cosmology,
is significant. He is in fact quite clear (in his ch. 
XXVI "On the shape of the earth...") that, citing Brahmagupta,
"the earth is the only low thing." However, he adds that
Puranic traditions hold that "The earth is like the
back of a tortoise; it is not round from below." Evidently,
he considered reference to a tortoise 
in this context to a metaphorical
description of the curvature of an otherwise disk-like
earth.

I note, too, that Prince Dara Shikoh (17th c.) makes no
mention of the tale in the cosmological paragraphs of his
Majma ul Bahrain. 

Matthew

Matthew T. Kapstein
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies
The University of Chicago Divinity School

Directeur d'?tudes
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris




From westerhoff at CANTAB.NET  Fri Apr  2 07:21:46 2010
From: westerhoff at CANTAB.NET (Jan Westerhoff)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 10 08:21:46 +0100
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
Message-ID: <161227089083.23782.8198087260196263074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

in his "Essay Concerning Human Understanding" (1:391-92 of the Dover
edition) John Locke mentions an Indian who, "saying that the world was
supported by a great elephant, was asked what the elephant rested on; to
which his answer was, a great tortoise. But being again pressed to know
what gave support to the broad-backed tortoise, replied, something, he
knew not what."

I am wondering what the source of that cosmological theory is. (In more
contemporary versions involving a variety of scholars, including Bertrand
Russell and William James this has metamorphosed into an elephant
supported by a downward infinite series of turtles). I am aware of the
notion of the turtle-king (kuurmaraaja) supporting the world, as well as
of that of a set of four (according to the Raamaaya.na) or sixteen
(according to the Amarako.sa) elephants doing the same, but I have been
unable to trace any Indian authority describing a stacked elephant-turtle
support.

I would be most grateful for any suggestions you may have!


Yours



Jan Westerhoff



***************************
JC Westerhoff
Department of Philosophy
University of Durham
50 Old Elvet
Durham DH1 3HN
United Kingdom

www.janwesterhoff.net
westerhoff at cantab.net




From LNelson at SANDIEGO.EDU  Fri Apr  2 16:01:02 2010
From: LNelson at SANDIEGO.EDU (Lance Nelson)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 10 09:01:02 -0700
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <41CDB4D6-6648-4B97-B257-1CF44F7D6856@oneonta.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089102.23782.9873077919543652354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many in this group, but perhaps not all, will be familiar with the 
importance of Bedawang Nala, the world turtle of Balinese myth, who 
supports the earth on his back and is typically portrayed in sculpture 
at the base of the Balinese padmasana altars. 

A quick reference:

Long ago the island of Bali drifted on the waves, as vulnerable as a frail
boat. The gods, in their mercy, decided that this would not do. They 
removed the
top of the sacred Mount Meru (in some versions from India, in others 
from Java)
and had it brought to the island by three enormous nagas-serpents with 
crowns
on their heads and jewels on the end of their tails-named Basuki, 
Anantaboga,
and Taksaka, who are commonly held to be incarnations of the deities Wisnu,
Brahma, and Siwa. The nagas lashed the mountain to the island, and then 
anchored
to it the cosmic turtle Bedawang, and so things still remain. Renamed
Gunung Agung ("Great Mountain"), the mountain stabilized the land, making
human habitation possible, and it was on or above the mountain that the gods
themselves remained.

Doors of Perception: Power and Representation in Bali
Author(s): Margaret J. Wiener
Source: Cultural Anthropology, Vol. 10, No. 4 (Nov., 1995), pp. 472-508

Cheers!  Lance


On 4/2/2010 at 8:22 AM Toke L. Knudsen wrote:
> Continuing with references to the earth being supporting by a single 
> tortoise

-- 
Lance Nelson
Theology & Religious Studies
University of San Diego




From will.sweetman at GMAIL.COM  Fri Apr  2 08:28:21 2010
From: will.sweetman at GMAIL.COM (Will Sweetman)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 10 09:28:21 +0100
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <45852.10.0.7.178.1270192906.squirrel@webmail.cantab.net>
Message-ID: <161227089086.23782.4277214866597229427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Jan,

I can't identify any Indian textual authority, but some time ago I became interested in how Locke came up with this image. Halbfass (India and Europe, p.62) mentions an article by Henrich (Henrich, Dieter. 1963. ?Die ?wahrhafte Schildkr?te?.? Hegel-Studien 2: 281-91) which discusses Locke's (and Hegel's) use of the image but doesn't go any further back than Locke. Following an article by Charpentier (Charpentier, J. 1924. 'A Treatise on Hindu Cosmography from the Seventeenth Century (Brit. Mus. MS. Sloane 2748 A).' Bulletin of the School of Oriental Studies, University of London 3(2): 317-342.) I think it likely that Locke got the image from Samuel Purchas. In Purchas, His Pilgrimage (1626) he writes that some Hindus believe "that the Earth had nine corners, whereby it was borne up by the Heaven. Others dissented, and said, that the Earth was borne up by seven Elephants; the Elephants feet stood on Tortoises, and they were borne by they know not what." Charpentier traces this to a letter by the Jesuit Father Emanual de Veiga (1549-1605), written at Chandagiri on 18th September, 1599. Charpentier quotes the letter from John Hay, De rebus Japonicis, Indicis, and Peruanis epistul? recentiores (Antwerp, 1605), p. 803 seq.: "Alii dicebant terram novem constare angulis, quibus c?lo innititur. Alius ab his dissentiens volebat terram septem elephantis fulciri, elephantes uero ne subsiderent, super testudine pedes fixos habere. Qu?renti quis testudinis corpus firmaret, ne dilaberetur, respondere nesciuit."

I think we can safely say this is where the idea enters European thought, but I too would be interested to know whether it can be traced further in the Indian textual tradition, or whether we must be content with an oral report from 400 years ago.

Best wishes

Will




From J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK  Fri Apr  2 08:34:25 2010
From: J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK (J L Brockington)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 10 09:34:25 +0100
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <45852.10.0.7.178.1270192906.squirrel@webmail.cantab.net>
Message-ID: <161227089088.23782.8322657767269617406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Extracts from my note in FLS News: Newsletter of the Folklore Society  
23, June 1996, p. 6 [in response to W.M.S. Russell, ?How many  
elephants??, FLS News 21, June 1995, p. 7] --

"The number four is in fact the standard one for this grouping of  
mythical elephants ... .  They are guardians of the compass points,  
and so either four or sometimes eight in number. ...  E.W. Hopkins is  
fully justified in asserting in relation to the epic material: "There  
is no myth of a world-upholding elephant" (Epic Mythology, Strassburg,  
Tr?bner, 1915, p. 17).  ...
    The most widespread Hindu cosmography is based on the myth of the  
churning of the ocean, found in the Br?hma?as (e.g. ?atapatha Br?hma?a  
3.2.4.1-6), the epics (e.g. Mah?bh?rata 1.15-17) and the Pur??as (e.g.  
Matsya Pur??a 249-251).  Here there is no mention of elephants, but Mt  
Meru is used as a churning stick or paddle to churn the ocean, and  
Vishnu takes the form of a tortoise (k?rma) on which Mt Meru is set,  
while the king of the snakes is used as the rope by which gods and  
Asura rotate the mountain.  At some stage the system of the four  
elephants of the quarters seems to have been conflated with this ...  
possibly in the Svayambh? Pur??? (a late Nepalese Pur??a); certainly  
it is not found in any of the major Pur??as."

John Brockington


Professor J. L. Brockington
Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
Asian Studies
7-8 Buccleuch Place
Edinburgh EH8 9LW



----- Message from westerhoff at CANTAB.NET ---------
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:21:46 +0100
From: Jan Westerhoff <westerhoff at CANTAB.NET>
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk


> Dear Colleagues,
>
> in his "Essay Concerning Human Understanding" (1:391-92 of the Dover
> edition) John Locke mentions an Indian who, "saying that the world was
> supported by a great elephant, was asked what the elephant rested on; to
> which his answer was, a great tortoise. But being again pressed to know
> what gave support to the broad-backed tortoise, replied, something, he
> knew not what."
>
> I am wondering what the source of that cosmological theory is. (In more
> contemporary versions involving a variety of scholars, including Bertrand
> Russell and William James this has metamorphosed into an elephant
> supported by a downward infinite series of turtles). I am aware of the
> notion of the turtle-king (kuurmaraaja) supporting the world, as well as
> of that of a set of four (according to the Raamaaya.na) or sixteen
> (according to the Amarako.sa) elephants doing the same, but I have been
> unable to trace any Indian authority describing a stacked elephant-turtle
> support.
>
> I would be most grateful for any suggestions you may have!
>
>
> Yours
>
>
>
> Jan Westerhoff
>
>
>
> ***************************
> JC Westerhoff
> Department of Philosophy
> University of Durham
> 50 Old Elvet
> Durham DH1 3HN
> United Kingdom
>
> www.janwesterhoff.net
> westerhoff at cantab.net
>
>


----- End message from westerhoff at CANTAB.NET -----



-- 
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.




From toke.knudsen at ONEONTA.EDU  Fri Apr  2 15:22:35 2010
From: toke.knudsen at ONEONTA.EDU (Toke L. Knudsen)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 10 11:22:35 -0400
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <C8A39A93-9805-4503-9404-4F264F146BF2@calmail.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089099.23782.13543542533948966826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Continuing with references to the earth being supporting by a single  
tortoise:  In the bhuvanakoza section (verse 31) of the  
SiddhAntasundara (ca. 1500 CE), JJAnarAja presents the following  
argument for the earth having support:

   dhRtavaktrasarIsRpo 'pi gRdhraH
   praharaM tiSThati khe 'lpavIrya evam /
   gagane na kathaM sa kUrmarUpaH
   pratikalpaM dhRtabhUr acintyazaktiH //

"A vulture, which has only little strength, rests in the sky holding a  
snake in its beak for a prahara.  Why can [the deity] in the form of a  
tortoise, who possesses an inconceivable potency, not hold the Earth  
in the sky for a kalpa?"

More references to the earth resting on a tortoise is found in verses  
63 and 78 of the same section.

Best,
Toke



On Apr 2, 2010, at 9:56 AM, Robert Goldman wrote:

> In the VAlmIki RAmAyaNa (critical ed.) at 6. 105. the gods praise  
> Rama as the Primal Being etc. Among many other things they tell him  
> (6.105.20), ?You support all beings as well as the earth with all  
> its mountains.? (tvaM dhArayasi bhUtAni vasudhAM ca saparvatAm) The  
> commentator MahezvaratIrtha (ca. 15th century) sees this as a  
> reference to ViSNu in the form of the primal tortoise, remarking,  
> ?Now they praise (him) as the primal tortoise. (saMpraty  
> AdikUrmAtmanA stauti). This may perhaps be a reference to the  
> KUrmAvatAra which was mentioned by John but there it is, as he  
> notes,  only Mt. Mandara that is supported and not the entire earth.  
> For what it is worth MahezvaratIrtha evidently has in mind a single  
> tortoise that supports the whole earth.
>
> Best,
>
> Bob Goldman
>
> Dr. R. P.  Goldman
> Professor of Sanskrit
> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
> MC # 2540
> The University of California at Berkeley
> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540
> Tel: 510-642-4089
> Fax: 510-642-2409
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 2, 2010, at 2:04 PM, J L Brockington wrote:
>
>> Extracts from my note in FLS News: Newsletter of the Folklore  
>> Society 23, June 1996, p. 6 [in response to W.M.S. Russell, ?How  
>> many elephants??, FLS News 21, June 1995, p. 7] --
>>
>> "The number four is in fact the standard one for this grouping of  
>> mythical elephants ... .  They are guardians of the compass points,  
>> and so either four or sometimes eight in number. ...  E.W. Hopkins  
>> is fully justified in asserting in relation to the epic material:  
>> "There is no myth of a world-upholding elephant" (Epic Mythology,  
>> Strassburg, Tr?bner, 1915, p. 17).  ...
>>  The most widespread Hindu cosmography is based on the myth of the  
>> churning of the ocean, found in the Br?hma?as (e.g. ?atapatha Br? 
>> hma?a 3.2.4.1-6), the epics (e.g. Mah?bh?rata 1.15-17) and the Pur?? 
>> as (e.g. Matsya Pur??a 249-251).  Here there is no mention of  
>> elephants, but Mt Meru is used as a churning stick or paddle to  
>> churn the ocean, and Vishnu takes the form of a tortoise (k?rma) on  
>> which Mt Meru is set, while the king of the snakes is used as the  
>> rope by which gods and Asura rotate the mountain.  At some stage  
>> the system of the four elephants of the quarters seems to have been  
>> conflated with this ... possibly in the Svayambh? Pur??? (a late  
>> Nepalese Pur??a); certainly it is not found in any of the major  
>> Pur??as."
>>
>> John Brockington
>>
>>
>> Professor J. L. Brockington
>> Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
>> Asian Studies
>> 7-8 Buccleuch Place
>> Edinburgh EH8 9LW
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Message from westerhoff at CANTAB.NET ---------
>> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:21:46 +0100
>> From: Jan Westerhoff <westerhoff at CANTAB.NET>
>> Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>>
>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>
>>> in his "Essay Concerning Human Understanding" (1:391-92 of the Dover
>>> edition) John Locke mentions an Indian who, "saying that the world  
>>> was
>>> supported by a great elephant, was asked what the elephant rested  
>>> on; to
>>> which his answer was, a great tortoise. But being again pressed to  
>>> know
>>> what gave support to the broad-backed tortoise, replied,  
>>> something, he
>>> knew not what."
>>>
>>> I am wondering what the source of that cosmological theory is. (In  
>>> more
>>> contemporary versions involving a variety of scholars, including  
>>> Bertrand
>>> Russell and William James this has metamorphosed into an elephant
>>> supported by a downward infinite series of turtles). I am aware of  
>>> the
>>> notion of the turtle-king (kuurmaraaja) supporting the world, as  
>>> well as
>>> of that of a set of four (according to the Raamaaya.na) or sixteen
>>> (according to the Amarako.sa) elephants doing the same, but I have  
>>> been
>>> unable to trace any Indian authority describing a stacked elephant- 
>>> turtle
>>> support.
>>>
>>> I would be most grateful for any suggestions you may have!
>>>
>>>
>>> Yours
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jan Westerhoff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ***************************
>>> JC Westerhoff
>>> Department of Philosophy
>>> University of Durham
>>> 50 Old Elvet
>>> Durham DH1 3HN
>>> United Kingdom
>>>
>>> www.janwesterhoff.net
>>> westerhoff at cantab.net
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ----- End message from westerhoff at CANTAB.NET -----
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
>> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

-----
Toke L. Knudsen, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Mathematics
Department of Mathematics, Computer Science, and Statistics
State University of New York, College at Oneonta
108 Ravine Parkway
Oneonta, NY 13820
USA

(607) 436-3726 (phone)
(607) 436-2173 (fax)
<toke.knudsen at oneonta.edu>




From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM  Fri Apr  2 13:22:19 2010
From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 10 18:52:19 +0530
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <20100402093425.mrbwsanxko84wko8@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227089094.23782.12317659553145006738.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This passage in Mur?ri's Anarghar?ghava may not be evidence of an  
elephant-turtle stack, since we have just a list of things that hold  
up the earth, but here are the elephants and the turtle at least  
brought together.

k?rmar?jabhujag?dhipagotragr?vadikkaribhir ekadhur??a?
m?? pras?ya katham astu vig?to h? par?rthavimukho  
raghuva??a? 1.38

In R?ja?ekhara's B?lar?m?ya?a they are exhorted to work together:

p?thvi sthir? bhava bhuja?gama dh?rayain??
tva? k?rmar?ja tad ida? dvitaya? dadh?th??.
dikku?jar?? kuruta tattritaye didh?r???
deva? karoti harak?rmukam ?tatajyam 1.48

Dominic Goodall

On 2 Apr 2010, at 14:04, J L Brockington wrote:

> Extracts from my note in FLS News: Newsletter of the Folklore  
> Society 23, June 1996, p. 6 [in response to W.M.S. Russell, ?How  
> many elephants??, FLS News 21, June 1995, p. 7] --
>
> "The number four is in fact the standard one for this grouping of  
> mythical elephants ... .  They are guardians of the compass points,  
> and so either four or sometimes eight in number. ...  E.W. Hopkins  
> is fully justified in asserting in relation to the epic material:  
> "There is no myth of a world-upholding elephant" (Epic Mythology,  
> Strassburg, Tr?bner, 1915, p. 17).  ...
>   The most widespread Hindu cosmography is based on the myth of the  
> churning of the ocean, found in the Br?hma?as (e.g. ?atapatha Br?hma? 
> a 3.2.4.1-6), the epics (e.g. Mah?bh?rata 1.15-17) and the Pur??as  
> (e.g. Matsya Pur??a 249-251).  Here there is no mention of  
> elephants, but Mt Meru is used as a churning stick or paddle to  
> churn the ocean, and Vishnu takes the form of a tortoise (k?rma) on  
> which Mt Meru is set, while the king of the snakes is used as the  
> rope by which gods and Asura rotate the mountain.  At some stage the  
> system of the four elephants of the quarters seems to have been  
> conflated with this ... possibly in the Svayambh? Pur??? (a late  
> Nepalese Pur??a); certainly it is not found in any of the major Pur?? 
> as."
>
> John Brockington
>
>
> Professor J. L. Brockington
> Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
> Asian Studies
> 7-8 Buccleuch Place
> Edinburgh EH8 9LW
>
>
>
> ----- Message from westerhoff at CANTAB.NET ---------
> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:21:46 +0100
> From: Jan Westerhoff <westerhoff at CANTAB.NET>
> Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>
>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> in his "Essay Concerning Human Understanding" (1:391-92 of the Dover
>> edition) John Locke mentions an Indian who, "saying that the world  
>> was
>> supported by a great elephant, was asked what the elephant rested  
>> on; to
>> which his answer was, a great tortoise. But being again pressed to  
>> know
>> what gave support to the broad-backed tortoise, replied, something,  
>> he
>> knew not what."
>>
>> I am wondering what the source of that cosmological theory is. (In  
>> more
>> contemporary versions involving a variety of scholars, including  
>> Bertrand
>> Russell and William James this has metamorphosed into an elephant
>> supported by a downward infinite series of turtles). I am aware of  
>> the
>> notion of the turtle-king (kuurmaraaja) supporting the world, as  
>> well as
>> of that of a set of four (according to the Raamaaya.na) or sixteen
>> (according to the Amarako.sa) elephants doing the same, but I have  
>> been
>> unable to trace any Indian authority describing a stacked elephant- 
>> turtle
>> support.
>>
>> I would be most grateful for any suggestions you may have!
>>
>>
>> Yours
>>
>>
>>
>> Jan Westerhoff
>>
>>
>>
>> ***************************
>> JC Westerhoff
>> Department of Philosophy
>> University of Durham
>> 50 Old Elvet
>> Durham DH1 3HN
>> United Kingdom
>>
>> www.janwesterhoff.net
>> westerhoff at cantab.net
>>
>>
>
>
> ----- End message from westerhoff at CANTAB.NET -----
>
>
>
> -- 
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.




From rpg at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU  Fri Apr  2 13:56:41 2010
From: rpg at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert Goldman)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 10 19:26:41 +0530
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <20100402093425.mrbwsanxko84wko8@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227089096.23782.17164136392354404909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 In the VAlmIki RAmAyaNa (critical ed.) at 6. 105. the gods praise Rama as the Primal Being etc. Among many other things they tell him (6.105.20), ?You support all beings as well as the earth with all its mountains.? (tvaM dhArayasi bhUtAni vasudhAM ca saparvatAm) The commentator MahezvaratIrtha (ca. 15th century) sees this as a reference to ViSNu in the form of the primal tortoise, remarking, ?Now they praise (him) as the primal tortoise. (saMpraty AdikUrmAtmanA stauti). This may perhaps be a reference to the KUrmAvatAra which was mentioned by John but there it is, as he notes,  only Mt. Mandara that is supported and not the entire earth. For what it is worth MahezvaratIrtha evidently has in mind a single tortoise that supports the whole earth.

Best,

Bob Goldman

Dr. R. P.  Goldman
Professor of Sanskrit
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
MC # 2540
The University of California at Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720-2540
Tel: 510-642-4089
Fax: 510-642-2409

 


On Apr 2, 2010, at 2:04 PM, J L Brockington wrote:

> Extracts from my note in FLS News: Newsletter of the Folklore Society 23, June 1996, p. 6 [in response to W.M.S. Russell, ?How many elephants??, FLS News 21, June 1995, p. 7] --
> 
> "The number four is in fact the standard one for this grouping of mythical elephants ... .  They are guardians of the compass points, and so either four or sometimes eight in number. ...  E.W. Hopkins is fully justified in asserting in relation to the epic material: "There is no myth of a world-upholding elephant" (Epic Mythology, Strassburg, Tr?bner, 1915, p. 17).  ...
>   The most widespread Hindu cosmography is based on the myth of the churning of the ocean, found in the Br?hma?as (e.g. ?atapatha Br?hma?a 3.2.4.1-6), the epics (e.g. Mah?bh?rata 1.15-17) and the Pur??as (e.g. Matsya Pur??a 249-251).  Here there is no mention of elephants, but Mt Meru is used as a churning stick or paddle to churn the ocean, and Vishnu takes the form of a tortoise (k?rma) on which Mt Meru is set, while the king of the snakes is used as the rope by which gods and Asura rotate the mountain.  At some stage the system of the four elephants of the quarters seems to have been conflated with this ... possibly in the Svayambh? Pur??? (a late Nepalese Pur??a); certainly it is not found in any of the major Pur??as."
> 
> John Brockington
> 
> 
> Professor J. L. Brockington
> Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
> Asian Studies
> 7-8 Buccleuch Place
> Edinburgh EH8 9LW
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Message from westerhoff at CANTAB.NET ---------
> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:21:46 +0100
> From: Jan Westerhoff <westerhoff at CANTAB.NET>
> Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> 
> 
>> Dear Colleagues,
>> 
>> in his "Essay Concerning Human Understanding" (1:391-92 of the Dover
>> edition) John Locke mentions an Indian who, "saying that the world was
>> supported by a great elephant, was asked what the elephant rested on; to
>> which his answer was, a great tortoise. But being again pressed to know
>> what gave support to the broad-backed tortoise, replied, something, he
>> knew not what."
>> 
>> I am wondering what the source of that cosmological theory is. (In more
>> contemporary versions involving a variety of scholars, including Bertrand
>> Russell and William James this has metamorphosed into an elephant
>> supported by a downward infinite series of turtles). I am aware of the
>> notion of the turtle-king (kuurmaraaja) supporting the world, as well as
>> of that of a set of four (according to the Raamaaya.na) or sixteen
>> (according to the Amarako.sa) elephants doing the same, but I have been
>> unable to trace any Indian authority describing a stacked elephant-turtle
>> support.
>> 
>> I would be most grateful for any suggestions you may have!
>> 
>> 
>> Yours
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Jan Westerhoff
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ***************************
>> JC Westerhoff
>> Department of Philosophy
>> University of Durham
>> 50 Old Elvet
>> Durham DH1 3HN
>> United Kingdom
>> 
>> www.janwesterhoff.net
>> westerhoff at cantab.net
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ----- End message from westerhoff at CANTAB.NET -----
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.




From westerhoff at CANTAB.NET  Fri Apr  2 18:32:48 2010
From: westerhoff at CANTAB.NET (Jan Westerhoff)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 10 19:32:48 +0100
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <23398F2F-98A6-4C5C-A75D-1707FCA412DA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227089104.23782.1201591861401029486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many thanks, Will!

This is very helpful.

Best

Jan

On Fri, April 2, 2010 09:28, Will Sweetman wrote:
> Dear Jan,
>
>
> I can't identify any Indian textual authority, but some time ago I became
> interested in how Locke came up with this image. Halbfass (India and
> Europe, p.62) mentions an article by Henrich (Henrich, Dieter. 1963. ?Die
> ?wahrhafte Schildkr?te?.? Hegel-Studien 2: 281-91) which discusses
> Locke's (and Hegel's) use of the image but doesn't go any further back
> than Locke. Following an article by Charpentier (Charpentier, J. 1924. 'A
> Treatise on Hindu Cosmography from the Seventeenth Century (Brit. Mus.
> MS. Sloane 2748 A).' Bulletin of the School of Oriental Studies,
> University of London 3(2): 317-342.) I think it likely that Locke got the
> image from Samuel Purchas. In Purchas, His Pilgrimage (1626) he writes
> that some Hindus believe "that the Earth had nine corners, whereby it was
> borne up by the Heaven. Others dissented, and said, that the Earth was
> borne up by seven Elephants; the Elephants feet stood on Tortoises, and
> they were borne by they know not what." Charpentier traces this to a
> letter by the Jesuit Father Emanual de Veiga (1549-1605), written at
> Chandagiri on 18th September, 1599. Charpentier quotes the letter from
> John Hay, De rebus Japonicis, Indicis, and Peruanis epistul? recentiores
> (Antwerp, 1605), p. 803 seq.: "Alii dicebant terram novem constare
> angulis, quibus c?lo innititur. Alius ab his dissentiens volebat terram
> septem elephantis fulciri, elephantes uero ne subsiderent, super
> testudine pedes fixos habere. Qu?renti quis testudinis corpus firmaret,
> ne dilaberetur, respondere nesciuit."
>
> I think we can safely say this is where the idea enters European thought,
> but I too would be interested to know whether it can be traced further in
> the Indian textual tradition, or whether we must be content with an oral
> report from 400 years ago.
>
> Best wishes
>
>
> Will
>
>


***************************
JC Westerhoff
Department of Philosophy
University of Durham
50 Old Elvet
Durham DH1 3HN
United Kingdom

www.janwesterhoff.net
westerhoff at cantab.net




From westerhoff at CANTAB.NET  Fri Apr  2 18:33:27 2010
From: westerhoff at CANTAB.NET (Jan Westerhoff)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 10 19:33:27 +0100
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <20100402093425.mrbwsanxko84wko8@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227089106.23782.14935056494272615452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many thanks, John!

This is very helpful.

Best

Jan


On Fri, April 2, 2010 09:34, J L Brockington wrote:
> Extracts from my note in FLS News: Newsletter of the Folklore Society
> 23, June 1996, p. 6 [in response to W.M.S. Russell, ?How many
> elephants??, FLS News 21, June 1995, p. 7] --
>
> "The number four is in fact the standard one for this grouping of
> mythical elephants ... .  They are guardians of the compass points, and so
> either four or sometimes eight in number. ...  E.W. Hopkins is fully
> justified in asserting in relation to the epic material: "There is no myth
> of a world-upholding elephant" (Epic Mythology, Strassburg, Tr?bner, 1915,
> p. 17).  ... The most widespread Hindu cosmography is based on the myth of
> the churning of the ocean, found in the Br?hma?as (e.g. ?atapatha Br?hma?a
>  3.2.4.1-6), the epics (e.g. Mah?bh?rata 1.15-17) and the Pur??as (e.g.
> Matsya Pur??a 249-251).  Here there is no mention of elephants, but Mt
> Meru is used as a churning stick or paddle to churn the ocean, and
> Vishnu takes the form of a tortoise (k?rma) on which Mt Meru is set,
> while the king of the snakes is used as the rope by which gods and Asura
> rotate the mountain.  At some stage the system of the four elephants of
> the quarters seems to have been conflated with this ... possibly in the
> Svayambh? Pur??? (a late Nepalese Pur??a); certainly
> it is not found in any of the major Pur??as."
>
> John Brockington
>
>
>
> Professor J. L. Brockington
> Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
> Asian Studies
> 7-8 Buccleuch Place
> Edinburgh EH8 9LW
>
>
>
>
> ----- Message from westerhoff at CANTAB.NET ---------
> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:21:46 +0100
> From: Jan Westerhoff <westerhoff at CANTAB.NET>
> Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>
>
>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>>
>> in his "Essay Concerning Human Understanding" (1:391-92 of the Dover
>> edition) John Locke mentions an Indian who, "saying that the world was
>> supported by a great elephant, was asked what the elephant rested on;
>> to which his answer was, a great tortoise. But being again pressed to
>> know what gave support to the broad-backed tortoise, replied, something,
>> he knew not what."
>>
>> I am wondering what the source of that cosmological theory is. (In more
>>  contemporary versions involving a variety of scholars, including
>> Bertrand
>> Russell and William James this has metamorphosed into an elephant
>> supported by a downward infinite series of turtles). I am aware of the
>> notion of the turtle-king (kuurmaraaja) supporting the world, as well
>> as of that of a set of four (according to the Raamaaya.na) or sixteen
>> (according to the Amarako.sa) elephants doing the same, but I have been
>>  unable to trace any Indian authority describing a stacked
>> elephant-turtle support.
>>
>> I would be most grateful for any suggestions you may have!
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jan Westerhoff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ***************************
>> JC Westerhoff
>> Department of Philosophy
>> University of Durham
>> 50 Old Elvet
>> Durham DH1 3HN
>> United Kingdom
>>
>>
>> www.janwesterhoff.net westerhoff at cantab.net
>>
>>
>
>
> ----- End message from westerhoff at CANTAB.NET -----
>
>
>
>
> --
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
>
>


***************************
JC Westerhoff
Department of Philosophy
University of Durham
50 Old Elvet
Durham DH1 3HN
United Kingdom

www.janwesterhoff.net
westerhoff at cantab.net




From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Sat Apr  3 08:03:39 2010
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 10 10:03:39 +0200
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <45852.10.0.7.178.1270192906.squirrel@webmail.cantab.net>
Message-ID: <161227089108.23782.11534777009130145822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is an excellent recent essay on this by Prof. Christopher Minkowski.
""Turtles All the Way Down? Tradition and Experiment in Cosmological
Reasoning."  I'm afraid I can't tell you right now where it is published.
There's a nice discussion of the generl
Turtles<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down>problem
in Wikipedia.


Dr Dominik Wujastyk
Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde
Universit?t Wien
Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1
A-1090 Vienna
Austria
--
long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com
PGP key: http://wujastyk.net/pgp.html


On 2 April 2010 09:21, Jan Westerhoff <westerhoff at cantab.net> wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> in his "Essay Concerning Human Understanding" (1:391-92 of the Dover
> edition) John Locke mentions an Indian who, "saying that the world was
> supported by a great elephant, was asked what the elephant rested on; to
> which his answer was, a great tortoise. But being again pressed to know
> what gave support to the broad-backed tortoise, replied, something, he
> knew not what."
>
> I am wondering what the source of that cosmological theory is. (In more
> contemporary versions involving a variety of scholars, including Bertrand
> Russell and William James this has metamorphosed into an elephant
> supported by a downward infinite series of turtles). I am aware of the
> notion of the turtle-king (kuurmaraaja) supporting the world, as well as
> of that of a set of four (according to the Raamaaya.na) or sixteen
> (according to the Amarako.sa) elephants doing the same, but I have been
> unable to trace any Indian authority describing a stacked elephant-turtle
> support.
>
> I would be most grateful for any suggestions you may have!
>
>
> Yours
>
>
>
> Jan Westerhoff
>
>
>
> ***************************
> JC Westerhoff
> Department of Philosophy
> University of Durham
> 50 Old Elvet
> Durham DH1 3HN
> United Kingdom
>
> www.janwesterhoff.net
> westerhoff at cantab.net
>




From tlsmith at UFL.EDU  Sat Apr  3 14:51:42 2010
From: tlsmith at UFL.EDU (Smith,Travis LaMar)
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 10 10:51:42 -0400
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <41CDB4D6-6648-4B97-B257-1CF44F7D6856@oneonta.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089113.23782.10614774756534294884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In v.35 of Bhartr?hari?s N?ti?ataka (M.R. Kale?s Motilal edition) there are no elephants mentioned, but the ?stacking? of world-bearers (serpent, tortoise and ocean) is made rather explicit:

vahati bhuvana?re??? ?e?a? pha??phalakasthit??
kama?hapatin? madhyepr???ha? sad? sa ca dh?ryate |
tam api kurute kro??dh?na? payodhir an?dar?d
ahaha mahat?? ni?s?m?na? caritravibh?taya? ||

Regards,
Travis
--
Travis L. Smith
Assistant Professor
Department of Religion
University of Florida
________________________________________
From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Toke L. Knudsen [toke.knudsen at ONEONTA.EDU]
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 11:22 AM
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?

Continuing with references to the earth being supporting by a single
tortoise:  In the bhuvanakoza section (verse 31) of the
SiddhAntasundara (ca. 1500 CE), JJAnarAja presents the following
argument for the earth having support:

   dhRtavaktrasarIsRpo 'pi gRdhraH
   praharaM tiSThati khe 'lpavIrya evam /
   gagane na kathaM sa kUrmarUpaH
   pratikalpaM dhRtabhUr acintyazaktiH //

"A vulture, which has only little strength, rests in the sky holding a
snake in its beak for a prahara.  Why can [the deity] in the form of a
tortoise, who possesses an inconceivable potency, not hold the Earth
in the sky for a kalpa?"

More references to the earth resting on a tortoise is found in verses
63 and 78 of the same section.

Best,
Toke



On Apr 2, 2010, at 9:56 AM, Robert Goldman wrote:

> In the VAlmIki RAmAyaNa (critical ed.) at 6. 105. the gods praise
> Rama as the Primal Being etc. Among many other things they tell him
> (6.105.20), ?You support all beings as well as the earth with all
> its mountains.? (tvaM dhArayasi bhUtAni vasudhAM ca saparvatAm) The
> commentator MahezvaratIrtha (ca. 15th century) sees this as a
> reference to ViSNu in the form of the primal tortoise, remarking,
> ?Now they praise (him) as the primal tortoise. (saMpraty
> AdikUrmAtmanA stauti). This may perhaps be a reference to the
> KUrmAvatAra which was mentioned by John but there it is, as he
> notes,  only Mt. Mandara that is supported and not the entire earth.
> For what it is worth MahezvaratIrtha evidently has in mind a single
> tortoise that supports the whole earth.
>
> Best,
>
> Bob Goldman
>
> Dr. R. P.  Goldman
> Professor of Sanskrit
> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
> MC # 2540
> The University of California at Berkeley
> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540
> Tel: 510-642-4089
> Fax: 510-642-2409
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 2, 2010, at 2:04 PM, J L Brockington wrote:
>
>> Extracts from my note in FLS News: Newsletter of the Folklore
>> Society 23, June 1996, p. 6 [in response to W.M.S. Russell, ?How
>> many elephants??, FLS News 21, June 1995, p. 7] --
>>
>> "The number four is in fact the standard one for this grouping of
>> mythical elephants ... .  They are guardians of the compass points,
>> and so either four or sometimes eight in number. ...  E.W. Hopkins
>> is fully justified in asserting in relation to the epic material:
>> "There is no myth of a world-upholding elephant" (Epic Mythology,
>> Strassburg, Tr?bner, 1915, p. 17).  ...
>>  The most widespread Hindu cosmography is based on the myth of the
>> churning of the ocean, found in the Br?hma?as (e.g. ?atapatha Br?
>> hma?a 3.2.4.1-6), the epics (e.g. Mah?bh?rata 1.15-17) and the Pur??
>> as (e.g. Matsya Pur??a 249-251).  Here there is no mention of
>> elephants, but Mt Meru is used as a churning stick or paddle to
>> churn the ocean, and Vishnu takes the form of a tortoise (k?rma) on
>> which Mt Meru is set, while the king of the snakes is used as the
>> rope by which gods and Asura rotate the mountain.  At some stage
>> the system of the four elephants of the quarters seems to have been
>> conflated with this ... possibly in the Svayambh? Pur??? (a late
>> Nepalese Pur??a); certainly it is not found in any of the major
>> Pur??as."
>>
>> John Brockington
>>
>>
>> Professor J. L. Brockington
>> Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
>> Asian Studies
>> 7-8 Buccleuch Place
>> Edinburgh EH8 9LW
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Message from westerhoff at CANTAB.NET ---------
>> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:21:46 +0100
>> From: Jan Westerhoff <westerhoff at CANTAB.NET>
>> Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>>
>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>
>>> in his "Essay Concerning Human Understanding" (1:391-92 of the Dover
>>> edition) John Locke mentions an Indian who, "saying that the world
>>> was
>>> supported by a great elephant, was asked what the elephant rested
>>> on; to
>>> which his answer was, a great tortoise. But being again pressed to
>>> know
>>> what gave support to the broad-backed tortoise, replied,
>>> something, he
>>> knew not what."
>>>
>>> I am wondering what the source of that cosmological theory is. (In
>>> more
>>> contemporary versions involving a variety of scholars, including
>>> Bertrand
>>> Russell and William James this has metamorphosed into an elephant
>>> supported by a downward infinite series of turtles). I am aware of
>>> the
>>> notion of the turtle-king (kuurmaraaja) supporting the world, as
>>> well as
>>> of that of a set of four (according to the Raamaaya.na) or sixteen
>>> (according to the Amarako.sa) elephants doing the same, but I have
>>> been
>>> unable to trace any Indian authority describing a stacked elephant-
>>> turtle
>>> support.
>>>
>>> I would be most grateful for any suggestions you may have!
>>>
>>>
>>> Yours
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jan Westerhoff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ***************************
>>> JC Westerhoff
>>> Department of Philosophy
>>> University of Durham
>>> 50 Old Elvet
>>> Durham DH1 3HN
>>> United Kingdom
>>>
>>> www.janwesterhoff.net
>>> westerhoff at cantab.net
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ----- End message from westerhoff at CANTAB.NET -----
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
>> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

-----
Toke L. Knudsen, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Mathematics
Department of Mathematics, Computer Science, and Statistics
State University of New York, College at Oneonta
108 Ravine Parkway
Oneonta, NY 13820
USA

(607) 436-3726 (phone)
(607) 436-2173 (fax)
<toke.knudsen at oneonta.edu>




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Sat Apr  3 16:48:16 2010
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington)
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 10 12:48:16 -0400
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <B6D294BF094D5C4686C6A0FEC3AF4AAB5F56DAEAE4@UFEXCH-MBXCL03.ad.ufl.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089116.23782.18005245948905830146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Buddhist Art, especially early, elephants play a major role in  
"supporting" structural establishments Buddhist worlds, presumably  
paradises, although the early literature does not mention that as part  
of of the Buddhist architectural considerations. Pitalkhora and Karle  
in the western caves have elephant plinths, and the Maha-stupa at  
Anuradhapura has a spectacular one all around it. In all cases the  
elephants face the viewer and support the structure on their backs.

In later Buddhist art, (ca, 11th century and on) in India, Nepal and  
Tibet the elephant commonly figures as either throne supports under  
the seat of a Buddhist figure (often a Buddha) or as part of the side  
throne-back supports, in which they often support other, often mythic,  
animals.  From the existence of these I would suggest that elephants  
were an early (as early as we have sculpture of them) marker of the  
division between the mundane and the attained worlds.

As for turtles, offhand, I cannot think of a one in Buddhism. Maybe  
somebody else knows of some.

Cheers

John 
  




From tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU  Sat Apr  3 22:00:56 2010
From: tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Tenzin Bob Thurman)
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 10 18:00:56 -0400
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <A2EE3930-5B67-48D4-BE1A-78D8CF5837A5@osu.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089118.23782.3055599325425809083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There's a famous golden turtle in Tibetan astrology and divination. 
Manjushri out of his concern for the Chinese, who are interested in 
time, astronomy, and divination, emanates himself as a golden turtle, 
then slays hisemanates turtle self and his shell comes up with the eight 
trigrams [same as those of the I Ching] for divination, and perhaps 
other geometrical patterns. In the same series of actions, he creates 
his earthly pure land at Wu Tai Shan in Shansi province
BobT

John C. Huntington wrote:
> In Buddhist Art, especially early, elephants play a major role in 
> "supporting" structural establishments Buddhist worlds, presumably 
> paradises, although the early literature does not mention that as part 
> of of the Buddhist architectural considerations. Pitalkhora and Karle 
> in the western caves have elephant plinths, and the Maha-stupa at 
> Anuradhapura has a spectacular one all around it. In all cases the 
> elephants face the viewer and support the structure on their backs.
>
> In later Buddhist art, (ca, 11th century and on) in India, Nepal and 
> Tibet the elephant commonly figures as either throne supports under 
> the seat of a Buddhist figure (often a Buddha) or as part of the side 
> throne-back supports, in which they often support other, often mythic, 
> animals.  From the existence of these I would suggest that elephants 
> were an early (as early as we have sculpture of them) marker of the 
> division between the mundane and the attained worlds.
>
> As for turtles, offhand, I cannot think of a one in Buddhism. Maybe 
> somebody else knows of some.
>
> Cheers
>
> John 
>
>




From yanom at CC.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP  Sat Apr  3 10:22:53 2010
From: yanom at CC.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP (Michio Yano)
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 10 19:22:53 +0900
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
Message-ID: <161227089111.23782.1761739771834880463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,
an article on the Kuurmavibhaaga was just published
in the most recent issue of the Journal of Indian
and Buddhist Studies, Vol.LVIII, No.3 (March 2010)
[121], pp.1126-1133:
MAEJIMA Miki and YANO Michio:
`A Study on the Atharvaveda-PariziSTa 50-57 with
Special Reference to the Kuurmavibhaaga'

We welcome comments on our humble contribution.
I am willing to send a pdf file of our article.

With best wishes,
Michio YANO


>There is an excellent recent essay on this by Prof. Christopher Minkowski.
>""Turtles All the Way Down? Tradition and Experiment in Cosmological
>Reasoning."  I'm afraid I can't tell you right now where it is published.
>There's a nice discussion of the generl
>Turtles<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down>problem
>in Wikipedia.
>
>
>Dr Dominik Wujastyk
>Institut fr Sdasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde
>Universitt Wien
>Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1
>A-1090 Vienna
>Austria
>--
>long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com
>PGP key: http://wujastyk.net/pgp.html
>
>
>On 2 April 2010 09:21, Jan Westerhoff <westerhoff at cantab.net> wrote:
>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> in his "Essay Concerning Human Understanding" (1:391-92 of the Dover
>> edition) John Locke mentions an Indian who, "saying that the world was
>> supported by a great elephant, was asked what the elephant rested on; to
>> which his answer was, a great tortoise. But being again pressed to know
>> what gave support to the broad-backed tortoise, replied, something, he
>> knew not what."
>>
>> I am wondering what the source of that cosmological theory is. (In more
>> contemporary versions involving a variety of scholars, including Bertrand
>> Russell and William James this has metamorphosed into an elephant
>> supported by a downward infinite series of turtles). I am aware of the
>> notion of the turtle-king (kuurmaraaja) supporting the world, as well as
>> of that of a set of four (according to the Raamaaya.na) or sixteen
>> (according to the Amarako.sa) elephants doing the same, but I have been
>> unable to trace any Indian authority describing a stacked elephant-turtle
>> support.
>>
>> I would be most grateful for any suggestions you may have!
>>
>>
>> Yours
>>
>>
>>
>> Jan Westerhoff
>>
>>
>>
>> ***************************
>> JC Westerhoff
>> Department of Philosophy
>> University of Durham
>> 50 Old Elvet
>> Durham DH1 3HN
>> United Kingdom
>>
>> www.janwesterhoff.net
>> westerhoff at cantab.net
>>




From vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU  Sun Apr  4 10:11:25 2010
From: vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU (Viktoria Lyssenko)
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 10 14:11:25 +0400
Subject: from Victoria Lysenko
Message-ID: <161227089120.23782.9603903687504320877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--Dear members of the List,
Jonardan Ganeri's adress :jonardon at liverpool.ac.uk
does not work with my servers. Could someone, Jonardan included, give me some other working adress.
Thank you in advance,
Victoria Lysenko,
Institute of Philosophy,
Russian Academy of Sciences




From slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU  Mon Apr  5 14:03:58 2010
From: slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU (Steven Lindquist)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 10 09:03:58 -0500
Subject: FYI: Ambedkar chair in constitutional law at Columbia U.
Message-ID: <161227089127.23782.15412857598578813338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

See: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Columbia-Univ-to-have-an-Ambedkar-Chair/articleshow/5756105.cms

My best,

Steven

--
Steven Lindquist, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Religious Studies 
Southern Methodist University
Homepage: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui
--




From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN  Mon Apr  5 04:11:32 2010
From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 10 09:41:32 +0530
Subject: Ghera=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da-Sa=E1=B9=83hit=C4=81?=
Message-ID: <161227089122.23782.2211126730139261900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear All,
Could someone inform if the Ghera??a-Sa?hit? is online available.
Best for all
DB
?










?


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From slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU  Mon Apr  5 14:48:03 2010
From: slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU (Steven Lindquist)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 10 09:48:03 -0500
Subject: FYI: Ambedkar chair in constitutional law at Columbia U.
In-Reply-To: <v2j8c711f4f1004050713yfa23b602u51c1d931861b88e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227089134.23782.8087603971114073994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I honestly can't say.  I have seen a couple other notices (verbatim to this one) and one which suggested it was not a GOI endeavor (but I couldn't judge the veracity of the statement).  I would be surprised if the GOI was directly involved, but I don't know.

My best,

s

--
Steven Lindquist, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Religious Studies 
Southern Methodist University
Homepage: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui
--

On Apr 5, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Frances Pritchett wrote:

> Thanks, Steven! This is the first I've heard of this... do you think the GOI
> is paying for it? The article isn't quite clear...
> 
> yours with interest and pleasure,
> fran
> 
> On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Steven Lindquist <slindqui at mail.smu.edu>wrote:
> 
>> See:
>> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Columbia-Univ-to-have-an-Ambedkar-Chair/articleshow/5756105.cms
>> 
>> My best,
>> 
>> Steven
>> 
>> --
>> Steven Lindquist, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor
>> Department of Religious Studies
>> Southern Methodist University
>> Homepage: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui
>> --
>> 




From fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU  Mon Apr  5 14:13:16 2010
From: fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frances Pritchett)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 10 10:13:16 -0400
Subject: FYI: Ambedkar chair in constitutional law at Columbia U.
In-Reply-To: <679B551F-3B20-4602-AEEE-DC06D09E83FC@mail.smu.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089129.23782.541099031569204810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks, Steven! This is the first I've heard of this... do you think the GOI
is paying for it? The article isn't quite clear...

yours with interest and pleasure,
fran

On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Steven Lindquist <slindqui at mail.smu.edu>wrote:

> See:
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Columbia-Univ-to-have-an-Ambedkar-Chair/articleshow/5756105.cms
>
> My best,
>
> Steven
>
> --
> Steven Lindquist, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Religious Studies
> Southern Methodist University
> Homepage: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui
> --
>




From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN  Mon Apr  5 04:53:06 2010
From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 10 10:23:06 +0530
Subject: Fw: Ghera=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da-Sa=E1=B9=83hit=C4=81?=
Message-ID: <161227089125.23782.16707219622131655964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In continuation of my previous mail. ?I could download the Ghera??a-Sa?hit? 
Best
DB

-


      The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/




From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA  Mon Apr  5 14:50:23 2010
From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 10 10:50:23 -0400
Subject: FYI: Ambedkar chair in constitutional law at Columbia U.
In-Reply-To: <3EC1FA66-1BA6-42D0-83CD-2047B6863835@mail.smu.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089137.23782.12429285006457866672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Pardon my ignorance, but what is GOI?
Stella Sandahl
--
Stella Sandahl
ssandahl at sympatico.ca



On 5-Apr-10, at 10:48 AM, Steven Lindquist wrote:

>>> --




From tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU  Mon Apr  5 17:27:09 2010
From: tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU (Mahadevan, Thennilapuram)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 10 13:27:09 -0400
Subject: Ambedkar chair in constitutional law at Columbia U.
In-Reply-To: <679B551F-3B20-4602-AEEE-DC06D09E83FC@mail.smu.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089142.23782.2900027908196894029.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This is great news.

________________________________________
From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Steven Lindquist [slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU]
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 10:03 AM
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: FYI: Ambedkar chair in constitutional law at Columbia U.

See: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Columbia-Univ-to-have-an-Ambedkar-Chair/articleshow/5756105.cms

My best,

Steven

--
Steven Lindquist, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Religious Studies
Southern Methodist University
Homepage: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui
--




From beitel at GWU.EDU  Mon Apr  5 19:18:34 2010
From: beitel at GWU.EDU (Alfred Hiltebeitel)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 10 15:18:34 -0400
Subject: Ambedkar chair in constitutional law at Columbia U.
In-Reply-To: <3F1D433A9F0362458046CF05D2B02A3608A983C3C5@WPDC-EXMB02.howardu.net>
Message-ID: <161227089147.23782.1375771103181169279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yes, definitely a nice mment.

Alf Hiltebeitel
Professor of Religion and Human Sciences
Department of Religion
2106 G Street, NW
George Washington University
Washington DC 20052

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mahadevan, Thennilapuram" <tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU>
Date: Monday, April 5, 2010 1:27 pm
Subject: Re: Ambedkar chair in constitutional law at Columbia U.
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk

> This is great news.
> 
> ________________________________________
> From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Steven 
> Lindquist [slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU]
> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 10:03 AM
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Subject: FYI: Ambedkar chair in constitutional law at Columbia U.
> 
> See: 
> 
> My best,
> 
> Steven
> 
> --
> Steven Lindquist, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Religious Studies
> Southern Methodist University
> Homepage: --




From beitel at GWU.EDU  Mon Apr  5 19:20:01 2010
From: beitel at GWU.EDU (Alfred Hiltebeitel)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 10 15:20:01 -0400
Subject: Ambedkar chair in constitutional law at Columbia U.
In-Reply-To: <e0179b5d88e3.4bb9ff4a@gwu.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089149.23782.11033396814856858405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry, I meant that as an aside to the sender.

Alf Hiltebeitel
Professor of Religion and Human Sciences
Department of Religion
2106 G Street, NW
George Washington University
Washington DC 20052

----- Original Message -----
From: Alfred Hiltebeitel <beitel at gwu.edu>
Date: Monday, April 5, 2010 3:18 pm
Subject: Re: Ambedkar chair in constitutional law at Columbia U.
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk

> Yes, definitely a nice mment.
> 
> Alf Hiltebeitel
> Professor of Religion and Human Sciences
> Department of Religion
> 2106 G Street, NW
> George Washington University
> Washington DC 20052
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mahadevan, Thennilapuram" <tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU>
> Date: Monday, April 5, 2010 1:27 pm
> Subject: Re: Ambedkar chair in constitutional law at Columbia U.
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> 
> > This is great news.
> > 
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Steven 
> > Lindquist [slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU]
> > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 10:03 AM
> > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> > Subject: FYI: Ambedkar chair in constitutional law at Columbia U.
> > 
> > See: 
> > 
> > My best,
> > 
> > Steven
> > 
> > --
> > Steven Lindquist, Ph.D.
> > Assistant Professor
> > Department of Religious Studies
> > Southern Methodist University
> > Homepage: --




From csaba.kiss at YAHOO.CO.UK  Mon Apr  5 14:25:36 2010
From: csaba.kiss at YAHOO.CO.UK (Csaba Kiss)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 10 16:25:36 +0200
Subject: Ghera=?UTF-8?Q?=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da-Sa=E1=B9=83hit=C4=81?=
In-Reply-To: <164210.60063.qm@web8602.mail.in.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227089131.23782.6652441869808332166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Ghera??asa?hit? is available at

http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil/1_sanskr/6_sastra/3_phil/yoga/ghers__u.htm

Yours,
Csaba Kiss


On 2010.04.05., at 6:11, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote:

> Dear All,
> Could someone inform if the Ghera??a-Sa?hit? is online  
> available.
> Best for all
> DB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage.
>
>
>      Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it  
> NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/




From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Mon Apr  5 15:01:13 2010
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 10 17:01:13 +0200
Subject: FYI: Ambedkar chair in constitutional law at Columbia U.
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP530547BED4C7C00B0994FDBF190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <161227089140.23782.17982299009804362137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What Jewish people call non- ...., nah, just kidding.  Government of India.
:-)


On 5 April 2010 16:50, Stella Sandahl <ssandahl at sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Pardon my ignorance, but what is GOI?
> Stella Sandahl
> --
> Stella Sandahl
> ssandahl at sympatico.ca
>
>
>
> On 5-Apr-10, at 10:48 AM, Steven Lindquist wrote:
>
>  --
>>>>
>>>




From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU  Tue Apr  6 02:34:11 2010
From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 10 19:34:11 -0700
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <4BB614BE.1080707@sandiego.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089151.23782.5467902838227218926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The notion that elephants support the Earth probably comes from 
assertions about nAgas fulfilling that role, as in HarivaMza
62.24 (CE):

...nAgAnAm upariStAd bhUH...


A nAga is a snake, but it can also  be an elephant, although in 
cosmological contexts such as this one a snake seems more likely. The 
serpent ZeSa is said in the PurANas to lie below the pAtAlas and to 
uphold them and the Earth. The nAgas are also sometimes protectors of 
the four directions, and this would further explain the assignation of 
elephants to the directions.

See Niklas Muller's 1822 cosmological rendering: elephants above a 
turtle above a snake. Viewable from Gretil (top of second illustration):

<http://resolver.sub.uni-goettingen.de/purl/?gr_elib-65>


Regards,

Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann
_____

on 4/2/2010 9:01 AM Lance Nelson wrote:
> Many in this group, but perhaps not all, will be familiar with the 
> importance of Bedawang Nala, the world turtle of Balinese myth, who 
> supports the earth on his back and is typically portrayed in sculpture 
> at the base of the Balinese padmasana altars.
> A quick reference:
>
> Long ago the island of Bali drifted on the waves, as vulnerable as a 
> frail
> boat. The gods, in their mercy, decided that this would not do. They 
> removed the
> top of the sacred Mount Meru (in some versions from India, in others 
> from Java)
> and had it brought to the island by three enormous nagas-serpents with 
> crowns
> on their heads and jewels on the end of their tails-named Basuki, 
> Anantaboga,
> and Taksaka, who are commonly held to be incarnations of the deities 
> Wisnu,
> Brahma, and Siwa. The nagas lashed the mountain to the island, and 
> then anchored
> to it the cosmic turtle Bedawang, and so things still remain. Renamed
> Gunung Agung ("Great Mountain"), the mountain stabilized the land, making
> human habitation possible, and it was on or above the mountain that 
> the gods
> themselves remained.
>
> Doors of Perception: Power and Representation in Bali
> Author(s): Margaret J. Wiener
> Source: Cultural Anthropology, Vol. 10, No. 4 (Nov., 1995), pp. 472-508
>
> Cheers!  Lance
>
>
> On 4/2/2010 at 8:22 AM Toke L. Knudsen wrote:
>> Continuing with references to the earth being supporting by a single 
>> tortoise
>




From jkirk at SPRO.NET  Tue Apr  6 03:05:42 2010
From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 10 21:05:42 -0600
Subject: Dharmamangal
Message-ID: <161227089153.23782.7612861889896219633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

Not being near a major university library, I write to ask if
anyone knows of an English translation of an edition of the
entire Bengali _Dharmamangal_? I can't get anywhere with google
or the LC. There seem to be a few articles based on it,
but I'm after a certain story in it that has to do with the
goddess Candi. 

Hoping,

Best wishes,
Joanna Kirkpatrick




From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN  Mon Apr  5 18:45:24 2010
From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 10 00:15:24 +0530
Subject: Ghera=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da-Sa=E1=B9=83hit=C4=81?=
In-Reply-To: <5357FC75-6CE8-4C8A-BD22-D316392C6F98@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <161227089144.23782.18282499594481046829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many thanks! This is better than the one I had downloaded.
Best
DB

--- On Mon, 5/4/10, Csaba Kiss <csaba.kiss at YAHOO.CO.UK> wrote:


From: Csaba Kiss <csaba.kiss at YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Ghera??a-Sa?hit?
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Date: Monday, 5 April, 2010, 7:55 PM


The Ghera??asa?hit? is available at

http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil/1_sanskr/6_sastra/3_phil/yoga/ghers__u.htm

Yours,
Csaba Kiss


On 2010.04.05., at 6:11, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote:

> Dear All,
> Could someone inform if the Ghera??a-Sa?hit? is online? 
> available.
> Best for all
> DB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage.
>
>
>? ? ? Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it? 
> NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/



      Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/




From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Apr  6 16:59:05 2010
From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (Gary Tubb)
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 10 11:59:05 -0500
Subject: Query
In-Reply-To: <a06240836c75809f0714e@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <161227089162.23782.7721406850340177358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Patrick,

I hope you've had a happy Easter.

The three of us---David Shulman, Yigal Bronner, and myself---are nearing 
the end of our work on a two-volume set of essays offering a new look at 
the history of Sanskrit kavya literature, focussing on the theme of 
innovations and turning points.  It came out of a year-long workshop in 
residence at the Institute of Advanced Studies in Jerusalem in 
2003-2004, followed by a couple of summer academies.  We're now at the 
point of looking for a publisher, and naturally we wonder whether you 
might consider including this in your series.  A table of contents is 
attached.  Please let us know your thoughts.  We three are together in 
Chicago for the Spring Quarter and except to have everything done by the 
end of the June.

Yours,
Gary.

Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair
Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations
The University of Chicago




From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Tue Apr  6 10:33:05 2010
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 10 12:33:05 +0200
Subject: Address
In-Reply-To: <5ED75352-712A-4CCB-9FC1-3C6FF18B1100@helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <161227089158.23782.101501711708864283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"John Smith" <jds10 at cam.ac.uk>,  still works for me.

Best,
Dominik


Dr Dominik Wujastyk
Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde
Universit?t Wien
Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1
A-1090 Vienna
Austria
--
long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com
PGP key: http://wujastyk.net/pgp.html


On 6 April 2010 12:29, Klaus Karttunen <klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi> wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
> who knows how I can reach John Smith. My message to the old address <
> john.smith at oriental.cam.ac.uk> came back as "Host unknown".
>
> Klaus Karttunen
> Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies
> Institute for Asian and African Studies
> PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B)
> 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
> Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674
> Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094
> Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi
>




From klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Tue Apr  6 10:29:11 2010
From: klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 10 13:29:11 +0300
Subject: Address
Message-ID: <161227089155.23782.1037120644939514302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,
who knows how I can reach John Smith. My message to the old address <john.smith at oriental.cam.ac.uk> came back as "Host unknown".

Klaus Karttunen
Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies
Institute for Asian and African Studies
PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B)
00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674
Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094
Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi




From tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU  Tue Apr  6 18:22:22 2010
From: tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU (Mahadevan, Thennilapuram)
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 10 14:22:22 -0400
Subject: Query
In-Reply-To: <4BBB6859.8030707@uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089165.23782.10370445655075053273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Personal mail, no doubt, but the Table of Contents would be nice?  

________________________________________
From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Gary Tubb [tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 12:59 PM
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Query

Dear Patrick,

I hope you've had a happy Easter.

The three of us---David Shulman, Yigal Bronner, and myself---are nearing
the end of our work on a two-volume set of essays offering a new look at
the history of Sanskrit kavya literature, focussing on the theme of
innovations and turning points.  It came out of a year-long workshop in
residence at the Institute of Advanced Studies in Jerusalem in
2003-2004, followed by a couple of summer academies.  We're now at the
point of looking for a publisher, and naturally we wonder whether you
might consider including this in your series.  A table of contents is
attached.  Please let us know your thoughts.  We three are together in
Chicago for the Spring Quarter and except to have everything done by the
end of the June.

Yours,
Gary.

Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair
Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations
The University of Chicago




From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Apr  6 20:58:41 2010
From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (Gary Tubb)
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 10 15:58:41 -0500
Subject: Query
In-Reply-To: <4BBB6859.8030707@uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089167.23782.4151154436494277398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List Members,

I apologize for sending a personal message to the list.  Punched the 
wrong button, I guess.

Yours,
Gary.

Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair
Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations
The University of Chicago




Gary Tubb wrote:
> Dear Patrick,
>
> I hope you've had a happy Easter.
>
> The three of us---David Shulman, Yigal Bronner, and myself---are 
> nearing the end of our work on a two-volume set of essays offering a 
> new look at the history of Sanskrit kavya literature, focussing on the 
> theme of innovations and turning points.  It came out of a year-long 
> workshop in residence at the Institute of Advanced Studies in 
> Jerusalem in 2003-2004, followed by a couple of summer academies.  
> We're now at the point of looking for a publisher, and naturally we 
> wonder whether you might consider including this in your series.  A 
> table of contents is attached.  Please let us know your thoughts.  We 
> three are together in Chicago for the Spring Quarter and except to 
> have everything done by the end of the June.
>
> Yours,
> Gary.
>
> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair
> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations
> The University of Chicago




From hellwig7 at GMX.DE  Tue Apr  6 16:25:50 2010
From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig)
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 10 17:25:50 +0100
Subject: Digital Corpus of Sanskrit, update
Message-ID: <161227089160.23782.761506561442930063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,

I would like to announce the first update of the Digital Corpus of Sanskrit
(DCS).

The new version of the text database contains the Katyayanasmrti and a
complete version of the Kurmapurana. In addition, an individual per-text
dictionary for each text is available via the corpus page of DCS (follow the
"D" links on the corpus page).

More details about these changes can be found at the following address:
http://kjc-fs-cluster.kjc.uni-heidelberg.de/dcs/index.php?contents=help_center


Best regards,

Oliver Hellwig

-----------

PD Dr. Oliver Hellwig
SAI, University of Heidelberg
Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
69120 Heidelberg




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM  Tue Apr  6 21:56:40 2010
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 10 22:56:40 +0100
Subject: Query
Message-ID: <161227089169.23782.6402425373453076110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Gary Tubb wrote:

"Punched the wrong button, I guess."

Ah, there's the problem.  Try tickling your keyboard with a light tap ~ the 
violence is usually counter-productive.

But good luck with the book.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge 




From slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU  Wed Apr  7 10:37:33 2010
From: slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU (Steven Lindquist)
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 10 05:37:33 -0500
Subject: help obtaining a ZDMG article
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-w40284DAC7BCFF29D96650BA5170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <161227089176.23782.10571877392926234795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi Arlo,

Can I assume you got it?  If not, I could email it or (since many email systems block attached files over 5mb) I could put it on my server for you to download.  Let me know.

My best,

s

--
Steven Lindquist, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Religious Studies 
Southern Methodist University
Homepage: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui
--

On Apr 7, 2010, at 3:16 AM, Arlo Griffiths wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
> I am trying, without success, to download the article Beitr?ge zur indischen Rechtsgeschichte by J. Jolly from
> http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg/periodical/titleinfo/49310
> The result is consistently a broken and unreadable pdf. I am not sure if this is due to a problem with my internet connection, or due to a problem with the file itself as stored online. MENADOC's own help function does not seem to be working yet. Can any of you help?
> Thank you.
> Arlo Griffiths
> 
> 
> 		 	   		  
> _________________________________________________________________
> New Windows 7: Simplify what you do everyday. Find the right PC for you.
> http://windows.microsoft.com/shop




From slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU  Wed Apr  7 10:50:29 2010
From: slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU (Steven Lindquist)
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 10 05:50:29 -0500
Subject: help obtaining a ZDMG article
In-Reply-To: <24BD72C2-BD36-4558-9887-6EA2353C2277@mail.smu.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089178.23782.16049688146744785953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Apparently, I can't even learn by example (sorry, Gary!), though punching wasn't a cause, but an effect.  Apologies to the list...

--
Steven Lindquist, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Religious Studies 
Southern Methodist University
Homepage: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui
--




From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Apr  7 08:16:18 2010
From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 10 08:16:18 +0000
Subject: help obtaining a ZDMG article
Message-ID: <161227089171.23782.14398278138574284585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,
I am trying, without success, to download the article Beitr?ge zur indischen Rechtsgeschichte by J. Jolly from
http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg/periodical/titleinfo/49310
The result is consistently a broken and unreadable pdf. I am not sure if this is due to a problem with my internet connection, or due to a problem with the file itself as stored online. MENADOC's own help function does not seem to be working yet. Can any of you help?
Thank you.
Arlo Griffiths


 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
New Windows 7: Simplify what you do everyday. Find the right PC for you.
http://windows.microsoft.com/shop




From kellner at ASIA-EUROPE.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Wed Apr  7 08:29:06 2010
From: kellner at ASIA-EUROPE.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Kellner, Birgit)
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 10 10:29:06 +0200
Subject: AW: help obtaining a ZDMG article
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-w40284DAC7BCFF29D96650BA5170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <161227089173.23782.1699075147312972048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Arlo, 

I suppose you tried just clicking on the PDF icon to the right of the article's entry in that volume's TOC at http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg/periodical/structure/37018? This opens the PDF file for me without any problems. This is the PDF link: 

http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/download/pdf/49310?name=Beitr%C3%A4ge%20zur%20indischen%20Rechtsgeschichte

Does that work? 

Best, 

b
________________________________________
Von: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] im Auftrag von Arlo Griffiths [arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 7. April 2010 10:16
An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Betreff: help obtaining a ZDMG article

Dear colleagues,
I am trying, without success, to download the article Beitr?ge zur indischen Rechtsgeschichte by J. Jolly from
http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg/periodical/titleinfo/49310
The result is consistently a broken and unreadable pdf. I am not sure if this is due to a problem with my internet connection, or due to a problem with the file itself as stored online. MENADOC's own help function does not seem to be working yet. Can any of you help?
Thank you.
Arlo Griffiths



_________________________________________________________________
New Windows 7: Simplify what you do everyday. Find the right PC for you.
http://windows.microsoft.com/shop




From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Apr  9 01:35:22 2010
From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 10 01:35:22 +0000
Subject: AW: help obtaining a ZDMG article
In-Reply-To: <1ED2F08480CEB74FB91BD2BC070F8E01376535FB66@MBX02.ad.uni-heidelberg.de>
Message-ID: <161227089181.23782.1935644752176247872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you Birgit, Lars Martin, Michael, Steven and Walter!
Arlo
PS Lars Martin: your message came through about 20 times... 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
http://windows.microsoft.com/shop




From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO  Fri Apr  9 08:14:39 2010
From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 10 10:14:39 +0200
Subject: AW: help obtaining a ZDMG article
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-w60D88DF5D5DC4A77F1E6C3A5150@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <161227089183.23782.11473924083784883454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Oh dear! 20 times...

I had some trouble sending it, but I can assure you that I didn't send it 20
times. I gave up after 3-4 attempts and deleted the message. 

Not the first time this happens, and I blame my service provider. It swamped
the mail box of my business contact completely. On the other hand: you have
to read one of them...

Best regards,

LM


From:
Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo - Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax:  +47 850 21 250
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no


 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of 
> Arlo Griffiths
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:35 AM
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: AW: help obtaining a ZDMG article
> 
> Thank you Birgit, Lars Martin, Michael, Steven and Walter!
> Arlo
> PS Lars Martin: your message came through about 20 times... 	
> 	 	   		  
> _________________________________________________________________
> New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
> http://windows.microsoft.com/shop=




From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO  Fri Apr  9 08:22:56 2010
From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 10 10:22:56 +0200
Subject: AW: help obtaining a ZDMG article
In-Reply-To: <72180C6C27FF4A4DB27D402509C1A1FA@Winston>
Message-ID: <161227089186.23782.80540618596373983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I apologize to the list for sending a private message through the list!

But while I am apologizing, I might as well correct a minor error in the
message. Arlo, pls read:

"On the other hand: you only have to read one of them..."

Best regards,

Lars Martin

From:
Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo - Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax:  +47 850 21 250
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no


 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of 
> Lars Martin Fosse
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 10:15 AM
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: AW: help obtaining a ZDMG article
> 
> Oh dear! 20 times...
> 
> I had some trouble sending it, but I can assure you that I 
> didn't send it 20 times. I gave up after 3-4 attempts and 
> deleted the message. 
> 
> Not the first time this happens, and I blame my service 
> provider. It swamped the mail box of my business contact 
> completely. On the other hand: you have to read one of them...
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> LM
> 
> 
> From:
> Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
> Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
> 0674 Oslo - Norway
> Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax:  +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 
> 90 91 91 45
> E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no
> 
> 
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Arlo 
> > Griffiths
> > Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:35 AM
> > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: AW: help obtaining a ZDMG article
> > 
> > Thank you Birgit, Lars Martin, Michael, Steven and Walter!
> > Arlo
> > PS Lars Martin: your message came through about 20 times... 	
> > 	 	   		  
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
> > http://windows.microsoft.com/shop=




From westerhoff at CANTAB.NET  Fri Apr  9 15:38:40 2010
From: westerhoff at CANTAB.NET (Jan Westerhoff)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 10 16:38:40 +0100
Subject: Joint Session: Indian Philosophy Satellite
In-Reply-To: <f709d81e45b0.4ba88d8f@gci.net>
Message-ID: <161227089190.23782.17207328683500522965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Society for Indian Philosophy Annual Meeting

Satellite Session of the Joint Session of the Aristotelian Society and the
Mind Association, Dublin 2010

University College Dublin, Monday, 12th July 2010

The Society for Indian Philosophy will be holding its 2010 Annual
Conference as a Satellite Session of the Joint Session of the Aristotelian
Society and the Mind Association on the Monday following the Joint
Session. We hope that this will facilitate interaction between scholars of
Western philosophy and scholars of Indian philosophy within the UK.

Programme

9.15 - 10.00	Jan Westerhoff (University of Durham)
Nectar, Pus, and Water: Interpreting the Example of the "Three Cups of
Liquid"

10.00 - 10.45	Jonardon Ganeri (University of Sussex)
Minimal Physicalism: An Indian Approach to the Mind-Body Problem

11.15 - 12.00	Mark Siderits (Seoul National University)
Neither the Same nor Different

12.00 - 12.45	Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad (University of Lancaster)
What is Defended When ?Atman' is Defended? Hindu Philosophers on Self

14.15 -15.00	Manidipa Sen (Jawaharlal Nehru University)
Self-Knowledge and the Subject/Object Dichotomy: Another look at the
Debate from an Indian Philosophical Perspective

15.00 - 15.45	Paul O'Grady (Trinity College Dublin)
Wisdom as an Epistemological Category

16.15 - 17.00	Amber Carpenter (University of York)
On 'Skilful' as a Moral Category

Information on practical arrangements and some abstracts can be found at

http://ucdjointsession2010.com/society_indian_philosophy.html

For all questions about the meeting please get in touch with Jan
Westerhoff at j.c.westerhoff at dur.ac.uk.




***************************
Dr Dr JC Westerhoff
Department of Philosophy
University of Durham
50 Old Elvet
Durham DH1 3HN
United Kingdom

www.janwesterhoff.net
westerhoff at cantab.net




From veerankp at GMAIL.COM  Fri Apr  9 12:14:17 2010
From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (Veeranarayana Pandurangi)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 10 17:44:17 +0530
Subject: Rig- sayana bhasya etext
Message-ID: <161227089188.23782.10027681357914827327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

dear freinds, please enlighten me whether somebody has e-text of Rigveda
> sayana bhasya and ready to make it available to others?
>
> -
> Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi
> Head, Dept of Darshanas,
> Yoganandacharya Bhavan,
> Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post
> Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026.
>
> --
> ?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ?????????
> ??? ???????? ??????? ? ?????? ???????????????
> ?????????????? ??????? ??????? ???????????
> ??????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? (?.??.)




From athr at LOC.GOV  Sat Apr 10 00:06:27 2010
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 10 20:06:27 -0400
Subject: PS: regarding Kern at the 1881 Berlin conference
Message-ID: <161227089194.23782.6913394699472516448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jonathan,

Sorry for the delay. In 2008 a very bright summer intern sorted and organized these papers.  He had a year or two of college German but no Indological background and so didn't recognize names, and also naturally had no expertise in deciphering 19th c. handwriting.  I have never had time to go through and correct his spellings of names etc. I don't see Kern's name in his collection guide, but I will forward it to you as an attachment and you can go through and see if there is anything that looks like a misspelling of the name, and I will have a look at the item.  There was also a signed menu or two, which unfortunately the intern didn't identify as such, but which I will try to find.  Finally there are some folders of letters with signatures the intern could not identify, which I'll have a look at.  They might mention why Kern wasn't there, as the document that Will Sweetman referred us to indicated.

Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Team Coordinator
South Asia Team, Asian Division
Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.

>>> Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at GMAIL.COM> 3/24/2010 11:55:38 AM >>>

this to Allan Thrasher: LOC actually lists its ownership of Weber's files
from the congress, if you wanted to wade through them for such
information....

-- 
J. Silk
Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden
Postbus 9515
2300 RA Leiden
Netherlands




From pf8 at SOAS.AC.UK  Fri Apr  9 21:00:48 2010
From: pf8 at SOAS.AC.UK (Peter Flugel)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 10 22:00:48 +0100
Subject: International Journal of Jaina Studies (Online) 2009-10
Message-ID: <161227089192.23782.4896080143914601840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am pleased to announce five new research articles that have been published
in the IJJS (Online) in the last 15 months:

http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/



-- 
Dr Peter Fl?gel
Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies
Department of the Study of Religions
Faculty of Arts and Humanities
School of Oriental and African Studies
University of London
Thornhaugh Street
Russell Square
London WC1H OXG

Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776
E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk
http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies




From jkirk at SPRO.NET  Tue Apr 13 14:24:31 2010
From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 10 08:24:31 -0600
Subject: George Hart
In-Reply-To: <495CA13712EB4057A56DA9BF9EB19A8F@Winston>
Message-ID: <161227089198.23782.2696346165918822333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There's one available from his listing on the UC Tamil Studies
website.

Best, JK 

-----Original Message-----
From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of
Lars Martin Fosse
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 7:07 AM
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: George Hart

Dear members of the list!
 
A friend is looking for the email address of George Hart (the
Tamil specialist). Would any of you be able to help?
 
Best regards,
 
Lars Martin Fosse
 


From: 
Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo - Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax:  +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90
91 91 45
E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no 


 




From rajam at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Apr 13 16:09:50 2010
From: rajam at EARTHLINK.NET (rajam)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 10 09:09:50 -0700
Subject: Utopia / Dystopia
In-Reply-To: <C5FC5D2B-212B-4CED-9E79-DB356916C5E8@mac.com>
Message-ID: <161227089207.23782.8113753199768895702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Here's an excellent article that contains information relevant to  
your query, but it is not in English (so, may not be instantly  
helpful to many readers):

http://www.viruba.com/tamilwritings/00001.aspx

It covers the contents of a lecture by Dr. V.C. Kulandaiswamy, a  
highly respected academic and author. Here's a link to Dr.  
Kulandaiswamy's profile on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
V._C._Kulandaiswamy

I'm CC'ing him on this mail, just in case you would like to get in  
touch with him.

Best.
V.S. Rajam
( <www.letsgrammar.org> )

On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:55 AM, Mary Storm wrote:

> Dear Indologists,
>
> I am looking for possible distinctive descriptions of utopias /  
> dystopias in Indian literature. I hope to find something that might  
> parallel ideas in Plato's Republic or Thomas More's Utopia.
>
> I am looking for descriptions of self-contained paradigmatic  
> societies- either ideal or wretched.
>
> Any ideas would be most welcome.
>
> I hope that wherever you are it is cooler than New Delhi!
>
> Mary Storm
>
> Mary Storm, Ph.D.
> Academic Director and Lecturer
> India: National Identity and the Arts
> and
> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture
> SIT Study Abroad
> http://www.sit.edu/studyabroad
> F 301 Lado Sarai
> New Delhi 110030 India
> Mobile: +91 98106 98003




From spootland at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Apr 13 17:16:00 2010
From: spootland at HOTMAIL.COM (DiSimone Charles)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 10 10:16:00 -0700
Subject: Utopia / Dystopia
In-Reply-To: <C5FC5D2B-212B-4CED-9E79-DB356916C5E8@mac.com>
Message-ID: <161227089216.23782.13041867478790006109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




Regarding Indian ideas of utopias, the Sukh?vat?vy?ha
and Ak?obhyavy?ha s?tras immediately come to mind.  I would not say they are parallel to Plato or
Moore?s ideas per se but they certainly describe self-contained paradigmatic
(ideal) societies.  


All the best,
Charles DiSimone
Graduate Student, Stanford University


> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:25:19 +0530
> From: mnstorm at MAC.COM
> Subject: Utopia / Dystopia
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> 
> Dear Indologists,
> 
> I am looking for possible distinctive descriptions of utopias /  
> dystopias in Indian literature. I hope to find something that might  
> parallel ideas in Plato's Republic or Thomas More's Utopia.
> 
> I am looking for descriptions of self-contained paradigmatic  
> societies- either ideal or wretched.
> 
> Any ideas would be most welcome.
> 
> I hope that wherever you are it is cooler than New Delhi!
> 
> Mary Storm
> 
> Mary Storm, Ph.D.
> Academic Director and Lecturer
> India: National Identity and the Arts
> and
> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture
> SIT Study Abroad
> http://www.sit.edu/studyabroad
> F 301 Lado Sarai
> New Delhi 110030 India
> Mobile: +91 98106 98003
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4




From jkirk at SPRO.NET  Tue Apr 13 16:26:14 2010
From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 10 10:26:14 -0600
Subject: Utopia / Dystopia
In-Reply-To: <C5FC5D2B-212B-4CED-9E79-DB356916C5E8@mac.com>
Message-ID: <161227089209.23782.15481623769277054636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 
A famous publication was Begam Rokeya Sakhawat Husain's
_Sultana's Dream_(1905)--a feminist utopia where all gender roles
are reversed. 

Bankim Chandra Chatterji's _Anandamath_ could be viewed or
appreciated as a both a dystopian representation of British rule
and a utopian dream of Indian political freedom, although it's
technically not a utopia per se.

I've not read the book, but Ashish Nandy's  _Traditions, Tyranny,
and Utopias: Essays in the Politics of Awareness_. Delhi, New
York: Oxford UP, 1987. New York: Oxford UP, 1992 might have some
use for your query.

Then there is the Ramrajya theory--are there any texts--classical
or not-- exploring this utopian concept?  

Best wishes,
Joanna K.

===================





Dear Indologists,

I am looking for possible distinctive descriptions of utopias /
dystopias in Indian literature. I hope to find something that
might parallel ideas in Plato's Republic or Thomas More's Utopia.

I am looking for descriptions of self-contained paradigmatic
societies- either ideal or wretched.

Any ideas would be most welcome.

I hope that wherever you are it is cooler than New Delhi!

Mary Storm

Mary Storm, Ph.D.
Academic Director and Lecturer
India: National Identity and the Arts
and
Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture
SIT Study Abroad
http://www.sit.edu/studyabroad
F 301 Lado Sarai
New Delhi 110030 India
Mobile: +91 98106 98003




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Apr 13 14:36:47 2010
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 10 10:36:47 -0400
Subject: George Hart
In-Reply-To: <495CA13712EB4057A56DA9BF9EB19A8F@Winston>
Message-ID: <161227089200.23782.17439406893846708347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George's email is glhart at BERKELEY.EDU.


Allen


Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Team Coordinator
South Asia Team, Asian Division
Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Apr 13 17:39:32 2010
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 10 13:39:32 -0400
Subject: Utopia / Dystopia
Message-ID: <161227089219.23782.14674617943333646481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Uttarakurus, who live somewhere north of the Himalayas, are depicted as ideally virtuous, but I can't give citations.  I think there is something about them in the Mahabharata.  There is a Wiki article "Uttarakuru" with inadequate source citations (and multiple misspellings) but which at least directs one to the names of the texts mentioning them, and a few chapter and verse citations.  Standard books on ancient cosmology and geography would presumably mention them and give sources better.  So would dictionaries and perhaps books on ancient Indian political thought.

It's interesting that (at least as far as I know) there are no Utopias that are the result of conscious planning, colonization, and/or setting of laws, unlike many Western examples.

Someone referred to the state depicted in the Arthasastra as "a bureaucrat's utopia" rather than the representation of an actual state, whether Maurya or later.

Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Team Coordinator
South Asia Team, Asian Division
Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.




From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU  Tue Apr 13 21:44:30 2010
From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 10 14:44:30 -0700
Subject: Utopia / Dystopia
In-Reply-To: <C53B815F46C545929DD79640B12B5197@OPTIPLEX>
Message-ID: <161227089224.23782.9447871787194114066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Mary,

For traditional materials you should look at the theory of the yugas. A 
good rendering of descriptions of the yugas (with many refs. to primary 
texts) is:

von Stietencron, Heinrich. 1986. Calculating Religious Decay: The 
Kaliyuga in India, in von Stietencron, Heinrich, /Hindu Myth, Hindu 
History: Religion, Art, and Politics/. New Delhi: Permanent Black, 31-49.

My book, /The Mahabharata and the Yugas/ (Peter Lang, 2002), translates 
some sections from the /Mahabharata/ and discusses the idea of the Kali 
Yuga , the worst age.

Then there is the Tibetan Shambhala, which might interest you. For that, 
you can start with:

/The Way to Shambhala: a Search for the Mythical Kingdom Beyond the 
Himalayas/. Edwin Bernbaum, 2001.

Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann
_____


on 4/13/2010 9:26 AM JKirkpatrick wrote:
>  
> A famous publication was Begam Rokeya Sakhawat Husain's
> _Sultana's Dream_(1905)--a feminist utopia where all gender roles
> are reversed. 
>
> Bankim Chandra Chatterji's _Anandamath_ could be viewed or
> appreciated as a both a dystopian representation of British rule
> and a utopian dream of Indian political freedom, although it's
> technically not a utopia per se.
>
> I've not read the book, but Ashish Nandy's  _Traditions, Tyranny,
> and Utopias: Essays in the Politics of Awareness_. Delhi, New
> York: Oxford UP, 1987. New York: Oxford UP, 1992 might have some
> use for your query.
>
> Then there is the Ramrajya theory--are there any texts--classical
> or not-- exploring this utopian concept?  
>
> Best wishes,
> Joanna K.
>
> ===================
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Indologists,
>
> I am looking for possible distinctive descriptions of utopias /
> dystopias in Indian literature. I hope to find something that
> might parallel ideas in Plato's Republic or Thomas More's Utopia.
>
> I am looking for descriptions of self-contained paradigmatic
> societies- either ideal or wretched.
>
> Any ideas would be most welcome.
>
> I hope that wherever you are it is cooler than New Delhi!
>
> Mary Storm
>
> Mary Storm, Ph.D.
> Academic Director and Lecturer
> India: National Identity and the Arts
> and
> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture
> SIT Study Abroad
> http://www.sit.edu/studyabroad
> F 301 Lado Sarai
> New Delhi 110030 India
> Mobile: +91 98106 98003
>
>   




From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO  Tue Apr 13 13:07:06 2010
From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 10 15:07:06 +0200
Subject: George Hart
Message-ID: <161227089196.23782.133363286854821930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the list!
 
A friend is looking for the email address of George Hart (the Tamil
specialist). Would any of you be able to help?
 
Best regards,
 
Lars Martin Fosse
 


From: 
Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse 
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 
0674 Oslo - Norway 
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax:  +47 850 21 250 
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 
E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no 


 




From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO  Tue Apr 13 15:14:32 2010
From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 10 17:14:32 +0200
Subject: George Hart
In-Reply-To: <4BC4493F0200003A0007D741@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <161227089205.23782.2375085016055062929.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would like to thank all of you have supplied me with George Hart's email
address!

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


From:
Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo - Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax:  +47 850 21 250
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no


 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of 
> Allen W Thrasher
> Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 4:37 PM
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: George Hart
> 
> George's email is glhart at BERKELEY.EDU.
> 
> 
> Allen
> 
> 
> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
> Senior Reference Librarian
> Team Coordinator
> South Asia Team, Asian Division
> Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150
> 101 Independence Ave., S.E.
> Washington, DC 20540-4810
> tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The 
> opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the 
> Library of Congress.




From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK  Tue Apr 13 18:10:11 2010
From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 10 19:10:11 +0100
Subject: Utopia / Dystopia
In-Reply-To: <20100413T133932Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov>
Message-ID: <161227089221.23782.4369530318634715534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Steven Collins' Nirv??a and Other Buddhist Felicities (Cambridge 1998)
is a sustained reflection on the idea of utopia in the Theravada
tradition.

Best,

Whitney Cox

On 13 April 2010 18:39, Allen W Thrasher <athr at loc.gov> wrote:
> The Uttarakurus, who live somewhere north of the Himalayas, are depicted as ideally virtuous, but I can't give citations. ?I think there is something about them in the Mahabharata. ?There is a Wiki article "Uttarakuru" with inadequate source citations (and multiple misspellings) but which at least directs one to the names of the texts mentioning them, and a few chapter and verse citations. ?Standard books on ancient cosmology and geography would presumably mention them and give sources better. ?So would dictionaries and perhaps books on ancient Indian political thought.
>
> It's interesting that (at least as far as I know) there are no Utopias that are the result of conscious planning, colonization, and/or setting of laws, unlike many Western examples.
>
> Someone referred to the state depicted in the Arthasastra as "a bureaucrat's utopia" rather than the representation of an actual state, whether Maurya or later.
>
> Allen
>
> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
> Senior Reference Librarian
> Team Coordinator
> South Asia Team, Asian Division
> Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150
> 101 Independence Ave., S.E.
> Washington, DC 20540-4810
> tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov
> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.



-- 


Dr. Whitney Cox
Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia,
School of Oriental and African Studies
Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square
London WC1H 0XG




From mnstorm at MAC.COM  Tue Apr 13 14:55:19 2010
From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 10 20:25:19 +0530
Subject: Utopia / Dystopia
Message-ID: <161227089202.23782.660949283207775772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,

I am looking for possible distinctive descriptions of utopias /  
dystopias in Indian literature. I hope to find something that might  
parallel ideas in Plato's Republic or Thomas More's Utopia.

I am looking for descriptions of self-contained paradigmatic  
societies- either ideal or wretched.

Any ideas would be most welcome.

I hope that wherever you are it is cooler than New Delhi!

Mary Storm

Mary Storm, Ph.D.
Academic Director and Lecturer
India: National Identity and the Arts
and
Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture
SIT Study Abroad
http://www.sit.edu/studyabroad
F 301 Lado Sarai
New Delhi 110030 India
Mobile: +91 98106 98003




From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN  Tue Apr 13 17:04:03 2010
From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 10 22:34:03 +0530
Subject: Utopia / Dystopia
In-Reply-To: <C5FC5D2B-212B-4CED-9E79-DB356916C5E8@mac.com>
Message-ID: <161227089212.23782.14824671580148668010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Look into the decsriptions of the state of affairs?before the introduction of private property in the Diighanikaaya and the Mahaabhaarata; crit.ed. ref not known to me at present; also relevant are the Puranic descriptions of the Satyayuga. Prior to that sometimes it becomes necessary to format the hard disk just to remove the ideas introduced by Francois Bernier and followed up by F.Engels.??
For dystopian ideas R.C.Hazra's Puranic records of Hindu rites and customsI, ch. on the Puranic description of the Kali age. The present writer's treatment of the same (2004) is in Bengali.
Best
DB
. Best DB
--- On Tue, 13/4/10, Mary Storm <mnstorm at MAC.COM> wrote:


From: Mary Storm <mnstorm at MAC.COM>
Subject: Utopia / Dystopia
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Date: Tuesday, 13 April, 2010, 8:25 PM


Dear Indologists,

I am looking for possible distinctive descriptions of utopias / dystopias in Indian literature. I hope to find something that might parallel ideas in Plato's Republic or Thomas More's Utopia.

I am looking for descriptions of self-contained paradigmatic societies- either ideal or wretched.

Any ideas would be most welcome.

I hope that wherever you are it is cooler than New Delhi!

Mary Storm

Mary Storm, Ph.D.
Academic Director and Lecturer
India: National Identity and the Arts
and
Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture
SIT Study Abroad
http://www.sit.edu/studyabroad
F 301 Lado Sarai
New Delhi 110030 India
Mobile: +91 98106 98003


Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php




From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN  Tue Apr 13 17:10:20 2010
From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 10 22:40:20 +0530
Subject: Fw: Re: Utopia / Dystopia
Message-ID: <161227089214.23782.1526210163091407860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Please read 'customs' in the 6th line. The perpendicular that follows was unknown to me when the mail was sent. I express regret

--- On Tue, 13/4/10, Dipak Bhattacharya <dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN> wrote:


From: Dipak Bhattacharya <dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN>
Subject: Re: Utopia / Dystopia
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Date: Tuesday, 13 April, 2010, 10:34 PM


Look into the decsriptions of the state of affairs?before the introduction of private property in the Diighanikaaya and the Mahaabhaarata; crit.ed. ref not known to me at present; also relevant are the Puranic descriptions of the Satyayuga. Prior to that sometimes it becomes necessary to format the hard disk just to remove the ideas introduced by Francois Bernier and followed up by F.Engels.??
For dystopian ideas R.C.Hazra's Puranic records of Hindu rites and customsI, ch. on the Puranic description of the Kali age. The present writer's treatment of the same (2004) is in Bengali.
Best
DB
. Best DB
--- On Tue, 13/4/10, Mary Storm <mnstorm at MAC.COM> wrote:


From: Mary Storm <mnstorm at MAC.COM>
Subject: Utopia / Dystopia
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Date: Tuesday, 13 April, 2010, 8:25 PM


Dear Indologists,

I am looking for possible distinctive descriptions of utopias / dystopias in Indian literature. I hope to find something that might parallel ideas in Plato's Republic or Thomas More's Utopia.

I am looking for descriptions of self-contained paradigmatic societies- either ideal or wretched.

Any ideas would be most welcome.

I hope that wherever you are it is cooler than New Delhi!

Mary Storm

Mary Storm, Ph.D.
Academic Director and Lecturer
India: National Identity and the Arts
and
Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture
SIT Study Abroad
http://www.sit.edu/studyabroad
F 301 Lado Sarai
New Delhi 110030 India
Mobile: +91 98106 98003


Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php


Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php




From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA  Wed Apr 14 14:40:51 2010
From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 10 07:40:51 -0700
Subject: Utopia / Dystopia
In-Reply-To: <6504_1271227062_1271227062_6AD00567-10E2-4010-B8E3-C55718687511@mac.com>
Message-ID: <161227089235.23782.2673548818770051492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For Utopia, you should also take into consideration the description of Alaka
in the latter half of Kaali-daasa's Megha-sande;sa or Megha-duuta. As a
place situated in the Himaalaya's and as an ever-happy place, it could have
been the source for James Hilton's _Lost Horizon_.

ashok aklujkar


On 10-04-13 11:37 PM, "Mary Storm" <mnstorm at MAC.COM> wrote:

> I have been thinking about Shambala and Shangri-la (Hilton's Lost
> Horizon) , Kali Yuga and Gore Vidal's novel Kalki. I am trying to find
> possible Indian sources of western literary images... for utopia /
> dystopia.




From 171318 at SOAS.AC.UK  Wed Apr 14 08:53:15 2010
From: 171318 at SOAS.AC.UK (Leon Goldman)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 10 09:53:15 +0100
Subject: email for Tamara Ditrich?
In-Reply-To: <4BC56426.9010500@anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <161227089232.23782.2543389175704096624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear McComas,
                         I have sent you Dr. Tamara Ditrich's email
off-list.
With kind regards,
Leon Goldman.

On 14 April 2010 07:43, McComas Taylor <mccomas.taylor at anu.edu.au> wrote:

> ???????? ???????? ? ????? ??? ??? ?
> Would any of you fine folk have an email address for Tamara Ditrich? (no
> longer at UQ, possible in Slovenia)
> ?????? ???????? ?
> McComas
>
> --
> ===============================
> Dr McComas Taylor
> Head, South Asia Program
> College of Asia and the Pacific
> The Australian National University
> ACTON ACT 0200
>
> Tel: +61 2 6125 3179
> Fax: +61 2 6125 8326
>
> Email: mccomas.taylor at anu.edu.au
> http://asianstudies.anu.edu.au/Dr_McComas_Taylor
> Location: Room E4.24 Baldessin Precinct Building




From mnstorm at MAC.COM  Wed Apr 14 06:37:19 2010
From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 10 12:07:19 +0530
Subject: Utopia / Dystopia
In-Reply-To: <4BC4E5BE.2000603@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089227.23782.6433494125170550313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear All

Thank you so much for your thoughts and insights.

I have been thinking about Shambala and Shangri-la (Hilton's Lost  
Horizon) , Kali Yuga and Gore Vidal's novel Kalki. I am trying to find  
possible Indian sources of western literary images... for utopia /  
dystopia.

All Best,

Mary

On 14-Apr-2010, at 3:14 AM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote:

> Mary,
>
> For traditional materials you should look at the theory of the  
> yugas. A good rendering of descriptions of the yugas (with many  
> refs. to primary texts) is:
>
> von Stietencron, Heinrich. 1986. Calculating Religious Decay: The  
> Kaliyuga in India, in von Stietencron, Heinrich, /Hindu Myth, Hindu  
> History: Religion, Art, and Politics/. New Delhi: Permanent Black,  
> 31-49.
>
> My book, /The Mahabharata and the Yugas/ (Peter Lang, 2002),  
> translates some sections from the /Mahabharata/ and discusses the  
> idea of the Kali Yuga , the worst age.
>
> Then there is the Tibetan Shambhala, which might interest you. For  
> that, you can start with:
>
> /The Way to Shambhala: a Search for the Mythical Kingdom Beyond the  
> Himalayas/. Edwin Bernbaum, 2001.
>
> Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann
> _____
>
>
> on 4/13/2010 9:26 AM JKirkpatrick wrote:
>> A famous publication was Begam Rokeya Sakhawat Husain's
>> _Sultana's Dream_(1905)--a feminist utopia where all gender roles
>> are reversed.
>> Bankim Chandra Chatterji's _Anandamath_ could be viewed or
>> appreciated as a both a dystopian representation of British rule
>> and a utopian dream of Indian political freedom, although it's
>> technically not a utopia per se.
>>
>> I've not read the book, but Ashish Nandy's  _Traditions, Tyranny,
>> and Utopias: Essays in the Politics of Awareness_. Delhi, New
>> York: Oxford UP, 1987. New York: Oxford UP, 1992 might have some
>> use for your query.
>>
>> Then there is the Ramrajya theory--are there any texts--classical
>> or not-- exploring this utopian concept?
>> Best wishes,
>> Joanna K.
>>
>> ===================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Indologists,
>>
>> I am looking for possible distinctive descriptions of utopias /
>> dystopias in Indian literature. I hope to find something that
>> might parallel ideas in Plato's Republic or Thomas More's Utopia.
>>
>> I am looking for descriptions of self-contained paradigmatic
>> societies- either ideal or wretched.
>>
>> Any ideas would be most welcome.
>>
>> I hope that wherever you are it is cooler than New Delhi!
>>
>> Mary Storm
>>
>> Mary Storm, Ph.D.
>> Academic Director and Lecturer
>> India: National Identity and the Arts
>> and
>> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture
>> SIT Study Abroad
>> http://www.sit.edu/studyabroad
>> F 301 Lado Sarai
>> New Delhi 110030 India
>> Mobile: +91 98106 98003
>>
>>




From mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU  Wed Apr 14 06:43:50 2010
From: mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 10 16:43:50 +1000
Subject: email for Tamara Ditrich?
Message-ID: <161227089230.23782.5116552887657455579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

???????? ???????? ? ????? ??? ??? ?
Would any of you fine folk have an email address for Tamara Ditrich? (no 
longer at UQ, possible in Slovenia)
?????? ???????? ?
McComas

-- 
===============================
Dr McComas Taylor
Head, South Asia Program
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University
ACTON ACT 0200

Tel: +61 2 6125 3179
Fax: +61 2 6125 8326

Email: mccomas.taylor at anu.edu.au
http://asianstudies.anu.edu.au/Dr_McComas_Taylor
Location: Room E4.24 Baldessin Precinct Building 




From jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM  Thu Apr 15 01:36:10 2010
From: jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM (girish jha)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 10 18:36:10 -0700
Subject: A query
Message-ID: <161227089238.23782.1068769913975742760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear?Indologists,
Could?anyone ?please let me know of the following:
Who has translated in English Prof.(Late)M.Biardeau's French tr. of undermentioned books ?(also mention the publication) :
1.Bhartrhari's Vakyapadiya
2.Mandana Misra's Sphotasiddhi
3.Mandana Misra's Brahmasiddhi?
Regards,
sincerely
GIRISH K. JHA
DEPT OF SANSKRIT,PATNA UNIV.,INDIA


      




From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA  Thu Apr 15 03:10:18 2010
From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 10 20:10:18 -0700
Subject: A query
In-Reply-To: <26808_1271295379_1271295379_121482.32618.qm@web57704.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227089241.23782.13710722112426869453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As far as I know, there are no English translations of the works mentioned
below. 


On 10-04-14 6:36 PM, "girish jha" <jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> Who has translated in English Prof.(Late)M.Biardeau's French tr. of
> undermentioned books ?(also mention the publication) :
> 1.Bhartrhari's Vakyapadiya
> 2.Mandana Misra's Sphotasiddhi
> 3.Mandana Misra's Brahmasiddhi?




From johanna.buss at GOOGLEMAIL.COM  Thu Apr 15 11:01:15 2010
From: johanna.buss at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (Johanna Buss)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 10 13:01:15 +0200
Subject: Newari Summer School in Vienna, 30th August - 10th September 2010
Message-ID: <161227089243.23782.9220002687610440776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

    Dear colleagues,
I am happy to announce the first Newari Summer School in Vienna from 30th
August - 10th September 2010.
For details please see: http://www.istb.univie.ac.at

Best wishes
Johanna Buss




From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE  Thu Apr 15 16:19:36 2010
From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 10 18:19:36 +0200
Subject: GRETIL update #369
Message-ID: <161227089246.23782.8024163674139975952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its
collection:

Mahamayuri vidyarajni
<http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#MahMayur> 


Vajravidarana-Dharani
<http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#Vajvidarana> 


Vajravidarani-Dharani
<http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#Vajviddh> 

 

__________________________________________________________________________ 

"GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites
for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission
statement") 

GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: 

http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Fri Apr 16 01:59:46 2010
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 10 21:59:46 -0400
Subject: contact info for Stephan Hillyer Levitt?
Message-ID: <161227089249.23782.3767205278310940054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would appreciate if someone could provide me contact information for Stephan Hillyer Levitt (New York).  He was a class-mate of mine at the University of Pennsylvania.

Madhav M. Deshpande

________________________________________




From rajam at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Apr 16 05:44:00 2010
From: rajam at EARTHLINK.NET (rajam)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 10 22:44:00 -0700
Subject: a question on manuscript traditions
Message-ID: <161227089251.23782.3163003429251829755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear All,

I'm looking for some information. Was it a practice in ancient India  
to put some sort of a "divine symbol" on every page of a manuscript?  
For example, there's a practice in the Tamil tradition to write some  
symbol (for example, invoking Ganesh) or descriptive word (invoking a  
personal God) on every page of some written work, whether it is a  
legal document, school notebook, exam paper, wedding invitation, and  
whatnot.

I'd like to know whether such practice is pan-Indic, and if so, how  
far does it go in time.

I've been working on a manuscript written in Portuguese to describe  
Tamil; and, in this manuscript (from ~1549) written by a Jesuit  
missionary each folio has Tamil words meaning "Jesus" or "Jesus Mary"  
at the top.

So, I wonder whether this practice is pan-Indic or borrowed from  
elsewhere.

I'm aware that Tamil inscriptions start with auspicious terminology,  
but I'd like to know about other traditions.

Thanks and regards,
V.S. Rajam
(<www.letsgrammar.org.>)




From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Apr 16 12:24:41 2010
From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 10 07:24:41 -0500
Subject: Crow lore
In-Reply-To: <81DA7FCA-E15F-4499-B905-E2E3F37E29A5@helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <161227089259.23782.2006408203159807611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


though not properly indological, berhold laufer wrote an excellent article 
concerning a tibetan dunhuang crow divination manual. if you write to me off 
list i will dig up the precise reference
---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:48:57 +0300
>From: Klaus Karttunen <klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI>  
>Subject: Re: Crow lore  
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>
>For crow and bird omens see Agnipur??a  231f.,  M?nar?ja, Yavanaj?taka 
68,  B?hatsa?hit? 46 & 86?88 & 95,  ?ivatattvaratn?kara 5, 8,  
Vasantar?ja?akuna (esp. 12),  ??rd?lakar??vad?na p. 175?180. 
>
>Best,
>Klaus
>
>Klaus Karttunen
>Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies
>Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures
>PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B)
>00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
>Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674
>Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094
>Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi
>
>
>
>
>On Apr 16, 2010, at 2:30 PM, Jan Filipsky wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> a student of mine is preparing an essay on vayasavidya, with special 
regard
>> to omens,  longevity, creation and hell.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Could you kindly suggest some relevant literature?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Regards, Jan Filipsky
>> 
>> 
>> 
Matthew T. Kapstein
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies
The University of Chicago Divinity School

Directeur d'?tudes
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris




From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU  Fri Apr 16 13:16:19 2010
From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 10 09:16:19 -0400
Subject: Crow lore
In-Reply-To: <20100416072441.CMP79208@m4500-02.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089263.23782.1161578668311894514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A follow-up to Matthew's observation: although 
Laufer wrote his article based on a Dunhuang 
manuscript (Pelliot 3530), the text (bya rog gi 
skad brtag par bya ba; kAkacaritra) is actually 
contained in some recensions of the Tibetan canon 
(Peking: P5831, vol.144, p.25-27, vol. GO fol. 
202b7-204b6; and Snar-thang: thun mong ba lugs 
kyi bstan bcos, vol. GO, fol. 221a1-222b7, to 
name two).

[BTW, the citation for the Laufer article is: 
Berthold Laufer, "Bird Divination Among the 
Tibetans," T'oung Pao (II) 15 [1914]: 1-110. The 
article is available from JSTOR.]

A more up-to-date study however, can be found in Eric Mortensen's dissertation:

"Raven Augury in Tibet, Northwest Yunnan, Inner 
Asia, and Circumpolar Regions" Harvard (2003).

There are several more texts related to "bird 
divination" in both the Bka'-'gyur and 
Bstan-'gyur sections of the Tibetan Buddhist 
canon.  If you are interest in references to 
those, feel free to contact me off-list.

Best,

Paul Hackett
Associate Editor
Tengyur Translation Initiative
Columbia University


At 7:24 AM -0500 4/16/10, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote:
>though not properly indological, berhold laufer wrote an excellent article
>concerning a tibetan dunhuang crow divination manual. if you write to me off
>list i will dig up the precise reference
>---- Original message ----
>>Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:48:57 +0300
>>From: Klaus Karttunen <klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI> 
>>Subject: Re: Crow lore 
>>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>>
>>For crow and bird omens see Agnipur??a  231f.,  M?nar?ja, Yavanaj?taka
>68,  B?hatsa?hit? 46 & 86-88 & 95,  ?ivatattvaratn?kara 5, 8, 
>Vasantar?ja?akuna (esp. 12),  ??rd?lakar??vad?na p. 175-180.
>>
>>Best,
>>Klaus
>>
>>Klaus Karttunen
>>Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies
>>Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures
>>PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B)
>>00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
>>Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674
>>Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094
>>Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Apr 16, 2010, at 2:30 PM, Jan Filipsky wrote:
>>
>>>  Dear List,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  a student of mine is preparing an essay on vayasavidya, with special
>regard
>>>  to omens,  longevity, creation and hell.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Could you kindly suggest some relevant literature?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Regards, Jan Filipsky
>>>
>>>
>>>
>Matthew T. Kapstein
>Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies
>The University of Chicago Divinity School
>
>Directeur d'?tudes
>Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris




From filipsky at RZONE.CZ  Fri Apr 16 11:30:32 2010
From: filipsky at RZONE.CZ (Jan Filipsky)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 10 13:30:32 +0200
Subject: Crow lore
Message-ID: <161227089254.23782.693022184429448107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

 

a student of mine is preparing an essay on vayasavidya, with special regard
to omens,  longevity, creation and hell.

 

Could you kindly suggest some relevant literature?

 

Regards, Jan Filipsky

 




From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU  Fri Apr 16 21:09:33 2010
From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 10 14:09:33 -0700
Subject: A note on Poets in the Akananuru
In-Reply-To: <1AC670DA-7456-4162-B2B9-11D9B7B8ABE8@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <161227089269.23782.13413101435905149815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am working through the Akananuru now, constantly struck by the ingenuity of the poets.  The words of M?gha certainly fit:

k?a?e k?a?e yan navat?m upaiti tad eva r?pam rama??yat?y??

That which becomes new every moment is the very form of beauty.

The poems rehearse the same situations and often the same imagery over and over, yet each one seems to have something new and extraordinary that makes it different from the others.  In any event, I remember speaking with Rajam once about the Akananuru and she remarked how different the poems of Para?ar and Kapilar are.  After working through many poems, I am struck by how unerring her insight is (and I am indebted to her for pointing this out).  We constantly wonder about the authorship of these poems -- are the attributions simply made up, or are they real?  In some poems, it is clear that the anthologist has taken liberties -- I doubt that anyone really believes the poems attributed to P?ri Maka?ir are by P?ri's daughters.  But, after seeing how the techniques of P?ri and Kapilar are so different and how the poems of each have similar styles, I am beginning to wonder whether in fact the attributed authorship of the Sangam poems is not in fact accurate.  Is there any evidence, for example, that Kapilar did NOT write the century of poems in the Ainkurunuru attributed to him (Martha Selby has said she believes the Ainkurunuru to be late)?  Or that the Sangam poets who are supposed to have written the Pattupp???u may not have been the same as in "earlier" works.  Note that in Tamil love poetry and Poetics, Takahashi believes that some of the anthologies are late and thus that the authorial attributions are incorrect.  I'd be interested in what people think about this.  George



From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU  Fri Apr 16 21:41:36 2010
From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 10 14:41:36 -0700
Subject: A note on Poets in the Akananuru
In-Reply-To: <BF6FE478-81D9-4EC8-9E4D-0EC59A484697@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089272.23782.12880002912972130939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I meant to send this to the Tamil list -- still, authorship of Indic  
texts is an interesting subject. There are a lot of lists!  Sorry.  
George Hart

On Apr 16, 2010, at 2:09 PM, George Hart <glhart at BERKELEY.EDU> wrote:

> I am working through the Akananuru now, constantly struck by the  
> ingenuity of the poets.  The words of M?gha certainly fit:
>
> k?a?e k?a?e yan navat?m upaiti tad eva r?pam rama??yat?y 
> ??
>
> That which becomes new every moment is the very form of beauty.
>
> The poems rehearse the same situations and often the same imagery  
> over and over, yet each one seems to have something new and  
> extraordinary that makes it different from the others.  In any  
> event, I remember speaking with Rajam once about the Akananuru and  
> she remarked how different the poems of Para?ar and Kapilar are.  Af 
> ter working through many poems, I am struck by how unerring her insi 
> ght is (and I am indebted to her for pointing this out).  We constan 
> tly wonder about the authorship of these poems -- are the attributio 
> ns simply made up, or are they real?  In some poems, it is clear tha 
> t the anthologist has taken liberties -- I doubt that anyone really  
> believes the poems attributed to P?ri Maka?ir are by P?ri's  
> daughters.  But, after seeing how the techniques of P?ri and Kapilar 
>  are so different and how the poems of each have similar styles, I a 
> m beginning to wonder whether in fact the attributed authorship of t 
> he Sangam poems is not in fact accurate.  Is there any evidence, for 
>  example, that Kapilar did NOT write the century of poems in the Ain 
> kurunuru attributed to him (Martha Selby has said she believes the A 
> inkurunuru to be late)?  Or that the Sangam poets who are supposed t 
> o have written the Pattupp???u may not have been the same as in  
> "earlier" works.  Note that in Tamil love poetry and Poetics, Takaha 
> shi believes that some of the anthologies are late and thus that the 
>  authorial attributions are incorrect.  I'd be interested in what pe 
> ople think about this.  George




From klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Fri Apr 16 11:48:57 2010
From: klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 10 14:48:57 +0300
Subject: Crow lore
In-Reply-To: <001101cadd58$3c5dc800$b5195800$@cz>
Message-ID: <161227089256.23782.525000700193341996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For crow and bird omens see Agnipur??a  231f.,  M?nar?ja, Yavanaj?taka 68,  B?hatsa?hit? 46 & 86?88 & 95,  ?ivatattvaratn?kara 5, 8,  Vasantar?ja?akuna (esp. 12),  ??rd?lakar??vad?na p. 175?180. 

Best,
Klaus

Klaus Karttunen
Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies
Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures
PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B)
00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674
Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094
Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi




On Apr 16, 2010, at 2:30 PM, Jan Filipsky wrote:

> Dear List,
> 
> 
> 
> a student of mine is preparing an essay on vayasavidya, with special regard
> to omens,  longevity, creation and hell.
> 
> 
> 
> Could you kindly suggest some relevant literature?
> 
> 
> 
> Regards, Jan Filipsky
> 
> 
> 




From peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU  Sat Apr 17 02:07:59 2010
From: peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU (Peter Friedlander)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 10 19:07:59 -0700
Subject: manuscript traditions
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%201004170000024951.0992@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227089274.23782.14753496274660592074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,
marking every page with a sacred symbol was certainly not the case in the Hindi manuscripts I have seen over the years (say ca. 1550 onwards) to mark every page. 
Moreover, whilst most religious works had on their first page some sacred formula such an an homage to Ganesha, secular works, such as slips of paper containing lists of ingredients for a remedy didn't normally carry any such special formula. 
The illustrations at the back of my catalogue of the
 Hindi manuscripts at the Wellcome Institute showed this. 

regards
Peter Friedlander




      




From lyne.bansat-boudon at EPHE.SORBONNE.FR  Fri Apr 16 20:56:31 2010
From: lyne.bansat-boudon at EPHE.SORBONNE.FR (Lyne BANSAT-BOUDON)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 10 22:56:31 +0200
Subject: Source
Message-ID: <161227089265.23782.8704192943338450637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,

Could any one let me know the source of this verse,  found in  
Yogaraaja's commentary ad Abhinavagupta's Paramaarthasaara, v.  58?

ekako'ham iti sams.rtau janas traasasaahasarasena khidyate
ekako'ham iti ko'paro'sti me ittham asmi gatabhiir vyavasthita.h

Yograraaja attributes it to the granthakaara, that is, to Abhinavagupta.


Thanks,


Lyne Bansat-Boudon
Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, Paris




From Loriliai.Biernacki at COLORADO.EDU  Sat Apr 17 15:26:29 2010
From: Loriliai.Biernacki at COLORADO.EDU (Loriliai Biernacki)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 10 09:26:29 -0600
Subject: Pluralistic Thinking
In-Reply-To: <BLU108-W24F3A5EC86D97B5068BA76A00D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <161227089280.23782.14817156841074242808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Of course, the Jain anekaantavaada comes to mind.
Best wishes,
Loriliai Biernacki

Associate Professor, Religious Studies
Associate Chair of Undergraduate Studies
University of Colorado at Boulder
UCB 292
Boulder, CO 80309
303-735-4730
Loriliai.Biernacki at colorado.edu
http://www.colorado.edu/ReligiousStudies/faculty/loriliai.biernacki.html

 

> Friends:
> 
>  
> 
> What would be appropriate Sanskrit word or phrase for "pluralistic thinking"?
> 
>  
> 
> Regards.
> 
>  
> 
> Harsha
> 
> Harsha V. Dehejia
> 
> Ottawa, ON., Canada.
>  




From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Apr 17 10:27:55 2010
From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 10 10:27:55 +0000
Subject: Pluralistic Thinking
Message-ID: <161227089277.23782.16992121721480275148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Friends:

 

What would be appropriate Sanskrit word or phrase for "pluralistic thinking"?

 

Regards.

 

Harsha

Harsha V. Dehejia

Ottawa, ON., Canada.
 		 	   		  




From palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Apr 17 17:42:13 2010
From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 10 12:42:13 -0500
Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
In-Reply-To: <A2EE3930-5B67-48D4-BE1A-78D8CF5837A5@osu.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089282.23782.5049247320338130.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have a few somewhat related questions. Does the myth of the tortoise/turtle supporting the world have anything to do with the hibernating behavior of the tortoise? Is that why in Agnicayana a tortoise is buried under the altar? For two Indology posts related to this issue, see: 
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9807&L=INDOLOGY&P=R8806&I=-3
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9807&L=INDOLOGY&P=R12404&I=-3

But then not all species of turtles/tortoise hibernate. I do not know if there are any tortoises/turtles in north India that hibernate. If not, could the myth have originated outside India where tortoises are known to hibernate?

Regards,
Palaniappan


On Apr 3, 2010, at 11:48 AM, John C. Huntington wrote:

> In Buddhist Art, especially early, elephants play a major role in "supporting" structural establishments Buddhist worlds, presumably paradises, although the early literature does not mention that as part of of the Buddhist architectural considerations. Pitalkhora and Karle in the western caves have elephant plinths, and the Maha-stupa at Anuradhapura has a spectacular one all around it. In all cases the elephants face the viewer and support the structure on their backs.
> 
> In later Buddhist art, (ca, 11th century and on) in India, Nepal and Tibet the elephant commonly figures as either throne supports under the seat of a Buddhist figure (often a Buddha) or as part of the side throne-back supports, in which they often support other, often mythic, animals.  From the existence of these I would suggest that elephants were an early (as early as we have sculpture of them) marker of the division between the mundane and the attained worlds.
> 
> As for turtles, offhand, I cannot think of a one in Buddhism. Maybe somebody else knows of some.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> John




From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU  Sat Apr 17 21:45:47 2010
From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 10 14:45:47 -0700
Subject: A note on Poets in the Akananuru
In-Reply-To: <6D5AF000-0973-41F3-9233-A62726E64444@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227089289.23782.3778286930491609408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Palaniappan,

Just what seems likely, I suppose.  Everyone may not know the story.  The great poet Kapilar was patronized by P?ri, who ruled over a small mountain called Pa?ampu.  P?ri was (and still is) renowned for his generosity, and as a result the three great kings, Chera Chola and Pandya, became jealous, joined together, and laid siege to Pa?ampu.  In the end, they could not take it by force, but were able to do so by treachery.  P?ri was killed, and Kapilar (a Brahmin) was spared.  Kapilar took P?ri's daughters to many kings and attempted to get them married but was unsuccessful.  In the end, he is supposed to have married them to other Brahmins.  The poems Kapilar wrote about this are some of the most beautiful in any literature.  There is one poem attributed to P?ri's daughters:

On that day, under the white light of that moon,
we had our father and no enemies had taken the hill.
On this day, under the white light of this moon, the kings,
royal drums beating out the victory,
have taken the hill.  And we! we have no father.

The power of these lines has echoed through almost 2000 years of Tamil history.  It seems to me unlikely that two young (12?) girls could compose such a master poem, especially when Kapilar, whom we know was a great poet, was with them and experienced what they did.  Of course, there is no way of being 100% certain that the girls did not have a part in the poem -- it is not unlikely they said something and Kapilar put it into poetry.  George
 
On Apr 17, 2010, at 1:32 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:

> Dear George,
> 
> What are the reasons for doubting the attribution of Pu?am 112 to P?ri Maka?ir?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
> 
> On Apr 16, 2010, at 4:09 PM, George Hart wrote:
> 
>> I am working through the Akananuru now, constantly struck by the ingenuity of the poets.  The words of M?gha certainly fit:
>> 
>> k?a?e k?a?e yan navat?m upaiti tad eva r?pam rama??yat?y??
>> 
>> That which becomes new every moment is the very form of beauty.
>> 
>> The poems rehearse the same situations and often the same imagery over and over, yet each one seems to have something new and extraordinary that makes it different from the others.  In any event, I remember speaking with Rajam once about the Akananuru and she remarked how different the poems of Para?ar and Kapilar are.  After working through many poems, I am struck by how unerring her insight is (and I am indebted to her for pointing this out).  We constantly wonder about the authorship of these poems -- are the attributions simply made up, or are they real?  In some poems, it is clear that the anthologist has taken liberties -- I doubt that anyone really believes the poems attributed to P?ri Maka?ir are by P?ri's daughters.  But, after seeing how the techniques of P?ri and Kapilar are so different and how the poems of each have similar styles, I am beginning to wonder whether in fact the attributed authorship of the Sangam poems is not in fact accurate.  Is there any evidence, for example, that Kapilar did NOT write the century of poems in the Ainkurunuru attributed to him (Martha Selby has said she believes the Ainkurunuru to be late)?  Or that the Sangam poets who are supposed to have written the Pattupp???u may not have been the same as in "earlier" works.  Note that in Tamil love poetry and Poetics, Takahashi believes that some of the anthologies are late and thus that the authorial attributions are incorrect.  I'd be interested in what people think about this.  George=




From palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Apr 17 20:32:40 2010
From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 10 15:32:40 -0500
Subject: A note on Poets in the Akananuru
In-Reply-To: <BF6FE478-81D9-4EC8-9E4D-0EC59A484697@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089284.23782.13122586094749897271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear George,

What are the reasons for doubting the attribution of Pu?am 112 to P?ri Maka?ir?

Thanks

Regards,
Palaniappan

On Apr 16, 2010, at 4:09 PM, George Hart wrote:

> I am working through the Akananuru now, constantly struck by the ingenuity of the poets.  The words of M?gha certainly fit:
> 
> k?a?e k?a?e yan navat?m upaiti tad eva r?pam rama??yat?y??
> 
> That which becomes new every moment is the very form of beauty.
> 
> The poems rehearse the same situations and often the same imagery over and over, yet each one seems to have something new and extraordinary that makes it different from the others.  In any event, I remember speaking with Rajam once about the Akananuru and she remarked how different the poems of Para?ar and Kapilar are.  After working through many poems, I am struck by how unerring her insight is (and I am indebted to her for pointing this out).  We constantly wonder about the authorship of these poems -- are the attributions simply made up, or are they real?  In some poems, it is clear that the anthologist has taken liberties -- I doubt that anyone really believes the poems attributed to P?ri Maka?ir are by P?ri's daughters.  But, after seeing how the techniques of P?ri and Kapilar are so different and how the poems of each have similar styles, I am beginning to wonder whether in fact the attributed authorship of the Sangam poems is not in fact accurate.  Is there any evidence, for example, that Kapilar did NOT write the century of poems in the Ainkurunuru attributed to him (Martha Selby has said she believes the Ainkurunuru to be late)?  Or that the Sangam poets who are supposed to have written the Pattupp???u may not have been the same as in "earlier" works.  Note that in Tamil love poetry and Poetics, Takahashi believes that some of the anthologies are late and thus that the authorial attributions are incorrect.  I'd be interested in what people think about this.  George=




From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA  Sun Apr 18 00:15:56 2010
From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 10 17:15:56 -0700
Subject: a question on manuscript traditions
In-Reply-To: <25847_1271396649_1271396649_1AC670DA-7456-4162-B2B9-11D9B7B8ABE8@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <161227089292.23782.16264694885671058364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have come across Devanaagarii mss in which "raama" was written on every
folio. I do not have the time at present to locate their copies again. My
recollection is that they were about 300 years old.

ashok aklujkar


On 10-04-15 10:44 PM, "rajam" <rajam at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:

> Was it a practice in ancient India
> to put some sort of a "divine symbol" on every page of a manuscript?  




From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU  Sun Apr 18 02:53:34 2010
From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 10 19:53:34 -0700
Subject: A note on Poets in the Akananuru
In-Reply-To: <7E4A64A8-E260-4069-AE78-472693521660@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227089299.23782.12223789251367845705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Palaniappan,

I think you underestimate the quality of the poem and the skill of the poet.  It takes a poet of transcendent ability to write something so simple and perfect.  If you will look at the rhythmic structure, you'll see that the first three lines move in a stately, regular way, suggesting normality.  Suddenly the normality is broken violently by the rhythms and sounds of the fourth line "kings whose royal drum are struck in victory."  The line ends with "em," presaging a return to the "normality" of the first three lines, but there is no normality.  The last line (actually beginning with the last word of line 4) is full of -m sounds, which suggests a sort of dirge, and yet it brings back the "normal," regular rhythms of the first three.  This line  is unbearably sad; it suggests that even though nature and life seem unchanged outwardly, nothing will ever be the same.  This is not a poem that could have been uttered by little girls, in my opinion.  The use of rhythm, alliteration, and the depth of human experience it mirrors could only be the products of a mature, master poet.  You might note the poem in which Kapilar describes the little girls who before would count the horses of enemy kings laying siege to Pa?ampu and now (after their father's death) count the wagons of salt merchants.  I'm putting it in below -- note the whole point of the poem is that, like all children, P?ri's daughters are blithely unaffected by the tragedy that has befallen them and still enjoy life as if nothing had happened.  The poem, of course, is ironic: that the little girls stand in a wilderness counting salt wagons shows how far their status has fallen from when they were the daughters of a king and counted the horses of enemy kings.  The poem attributed to P?ri Maka?ir shows a far more mature reaction to tragedy than one would expect from little girls.  I do agree that Kapilar here is probably using some poetic conventions from folk poetry.  George

116

Skirts of waterlilies sway across their thighs, made of full-blown
blossoms that grew in large, deep springs where the water is sweet.
With their cool and beautiful eyes, their light laughter, the girls
climb up on a heap covered with dwarf datepalm, where sponge gourd
has rooted and calabash has spread, near a hut that has cotton
growing in the front yard, and there is a fence of thorns and near it
are twisting paths choked up with grass, and standing there on the mound,
they count the wagons that carry the salt for the salt merchants.
I feel pain and how I wish that my life were over!  There was a time
when they would climb the highest peak on the wide mountain
where prosperity was unending and the peacocks would rise up 
and dance in gardens of cultivated flowers while on the great slopes
planted with crops, there were monkeys that were swinging and leaping,
and trees gave fruit in and out of season, so many that the monkeys
could not take them all; and as the kings with their great armies
came against the hill in war, ignorant of how difficult it would be
to prevail against their father P?ri, he who wielded a sharp spear, 
he who was the master of abundant toddy, 
from the peak the girls would count the proud horses bearing the iron weapons of kings!

Kapilar sings V?? P?ri.  Ti?ai: potuviyal.  Tu?ai: kaiya?unilai.


On Apr 17, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:

> Dear George,
> 
> In fact, I think the very presence of Kapilar as a family friend suggests that the attribution could be true indeed. U. V?. C?min?taiyar describes the poetic abilities of his teacher  M????cicuntaram Pi??ai (1815-1876) at about the same age. So, if the girls had studied Tamil with Kapilar, the two girls could have been excellent poets in their own right. I do not think it would be anything unusual for them to compose such a poem. Moreover, the very structure of the poem suggests that authorship by two persons is very possible as seen below
> 
> a??ait ti?ka? avve? nilavi?
>  entaiyum u?aiy?m em ku??um pi?ar ko??r 
> 
> i??ait ti?ka? ivve? nilavi?
>  ve??e?i muraci? v?ntar em
>  ku??um ko?t?r y?m entaiyum ilam?
> 
> The first two lines could have been uttered by one daughter and the other three lines by another daughter. This pattern of two-person song-making/word play is common in folk songs and this has been depicted in the Tamil epic poetry of the Cilappatik?ram (Ku??akkuravai 12-14), in Bhakti poetry like the Tiruv?cakam (Tirucc??al), and in modern film songs. Although Ku??akkuravai and Tirucc??al are considered to be imitative of originals prevalent in the folk culture, the poem by P?ri's daughters could be an original.
> 
> So, I do not think there is any reason to doubt the traditional attribution of the poem to P?ri Maka?ir.
> 
> Talking of Ku??akkuravai 12-14, they also indicate that the source of the genre of ant?di could be in the folk culture and be very old.  
> 
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 17, 2010, at 4:45 PM, George Hart wrote:
> 
>> Dear Palaniappan,
>> 
>> Just what seems likely, I suppose.  Everyone may not know the story.  The great poet Kapilar was patronized by P?ri, who ruled over a small mountain called Pa?ampu.  P?ri was (and still is) renowned for his generosity, and as a result the three great kings, Chera Chola and Pandya, became jealous, joined together, and laid siege to Pa?ampu.  In the end, they could not take it by force, but were able to do so by treachery.  P?ri was killed, and Kapilar (a Brahmin) was spared.  Kapilar took P?ri's daughters to many kings and attempted to get them married but was unsuccessful.  In the end, he is supposed to have married them to other Brahmins.  The poems Kapilar wrote about this are some of the most beautiful in any literature.  There is one poem attributed to P?ri's daughters:
>> 
>> On that day, under the white light of that moon,
>> we had our father and no enemies had taken the hill.
>> On this day, under the white light of this moon, the kings,
>> royal drums beating out the victory,
>> have taken the hill.  And we! we have no father.
>> 
>> The power of these lines has echoed through almost 2000 years of Tamil history.  It seems to me unlikely that two young (12?) girls could compose such a master poem, especially when Kapilar, whom we know was a great poet, was with them and experienced what they did.  Of course, there is no way of being 100% certain that the girls did not have a part in the poem -- it is not unlikely they said something and Kapilar put it into poetry.  George
>> 
>> On Apr 17, 2010, at 1:32 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear George,
>>> 
>>> What are the reasons for doubting the attribution of Pu?am 112 to P?ri Maka?ir?
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Palaniappan
>>> 
>>> On Apr 16, 2010, at 4:09 PM, George Hart wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I am working through the Akananuru now, constantly struck by the ingenuity of the poets.  The words of M?gha certainly fit:
>>>> 
>>>> k?a?e k?a?e yan navat?m upaiti tad eva r?pam rama??yat?y??
>>>> 
>>>> That which becomes new every moment is the very form of beauty.
>>>> 
>>>> The poems rehearse the same situations and often the same imagery over and over, yet each one seems to have something new and extraordinary that makes it different from the others.  In any event, I remember speaking with Rajam once about the Akananuru and she remarked how different the poems of Para?ar and Kapilar are.  After working through many poems, I am struck by how unerring her insight is (and I am indebted to her for pointing this out).  We constantly wonder about the authorship of these poems -- are the attributions simply made up, or are they real?  In some poems, it is clear that the anthologist has taken liberties -- I doubt that anyone really believes the poems attributed to P?ri Maka?ir are by P?ri's daughters.  But, after seeing how the techniques of P?ri and Kapilar are so different and how the poems of each have similar styles, I am beginning to wonder whether in fact the attributed authorship of the Sangam poems is not in fact accurate.  Is there any evidence, for example, that Kapilar did NOT write the century of poems in the Ainkurunuru attributed to him (Martha Selby has said she believes the Ainkurunuru to be late)?  Or that the Sangam poets who are supposed to have written the Pattupp???u may not have been the same as in "earlier" works.  Note that in Tamil love poetry and Poetics, Takahashi believes that some of the anthologies are late and thus that the authorial attributions are incorrect.  I'd be interested in what people think about this.  George=




From palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Apr 18 02:22:42 2010
From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 10 21:22:42 -0500
Subject: A note on Poets in the Akananuru
In-Reply-To: <9DF8CB37-274A-4D08-BA7F-108E4CC48F29@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089294.23782.3596340363498165934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear George,

In fact, I think the very presence of Kapilar as a family friend suggests that the attribution could be true indeed. U. V?. C?min?taiyar describes the poetic abilities of his teacher  M????cicuntaram Pi??ai (1815-1876) at about the same age. So, if the girls had studied Tamil with Kapilar, the two girls could have been excellent poets in their own right. I do not think it would be anything unusual for them to compose such a poem. Moreover, the very structure of the poem suggests that authorship by two persons is very possible as seen below

a??ait ti?ka? avve? nilavi?
  entaiyum u?aiy?m em ku??um pi?ar ko??r 

i??ait ti?ka? ivve? nilavi?
  ve??e?i muraci? v?ntar em
  ku??um ko?t?r y?m entaiyum ilam?

The first two lines could have been uttered by one daughter and the other three lines by another daughter. This pattern of two-person song-making/word play is common in folk songs and this has been depicted in the Tamil epic poetry of the Cilappatik?ram (Ku??akkuravai 12-14), in Bhakti poetry like the Tiruv?cakam (Tirucc??al), and in modern film songs. Although Ku??akkuravai and Tirucc??al are considered to be imitative of originals prevalent in the folk culture, the poem by P?ri's daughters could be an original.

So, I do not think there is any reason to doubt the traditional attribution of the poem to P?ri Maka?ir.

Talking of Ku??akkuravai 12-14, they also indicate that the source of the genre of ant?di could be in the folk culture and be very old.  

Regards,
Palaniappan




On Apr 17, 2010, at 4:45 PM, George Hart wrote:

> Dear Palaniappan,
> 
> Just what seems likely, I suppose.  Everyone may not know the story.  The great poet Kapilar was patronized by P?ri, who ruled over a small mountain called Pa?ampu.  P?ri was (and still is) renowned for his generosity, and as a result the three great kings, Chera Chola and Pandya, became jealous, joined together, and laid siege to Pa?ampu.  In the end, they could not take it by force, but were able to do so by treachery.  P?ri was killed, and Kapilar (a Brahmin) was spared.  Kapilar took P?ri's daughters to many kings and attempted to get them married but was unsuccessful.  In the end, he is supposed to have married them to other Brahmins.  The poems Kapilar wrote about this are some of the most beautiful in any literature.  There is one poem attributed to P?ri's daughters:
> 
> On that day, under the white light of that moon,
> we had our father and no enemies had taken the hill.
> On this day, under the white light of this moon, the kings,
> royal drums beating out the victory,
> have taken the hill.  And we! we have no father.
> 
> The power of these lines has echoed through almost 2000 years of Tamil history.  It seems to me unlikely that two young (12?) girls could compose such a master poem, especially when Kapilar, whom we know was a great poet, was with them and experienced what they did.  Of course, there is no way of being 100% certain that the girls did not have a part in the poem -- it is not unlikely they said something and Kapilar put it into poetry.  George
> 
> On Apr 17, 2010, at 1:32 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:
> 
>> Dear George,
>> 
>> What are the reasons for doubting the attribution of Pu?am 112 to P?ri Maka?ir?
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Palaniappan
>> 
>> On Apr 16, 2010, at 4:09 PM, George Hart wrote:
>> 
>>> I am working through the Akananuru now, constantly struck by the ingenuity of the poets.  The words of M?gha certainly fit:
>>> 
>>> k?a?e k?a?e yan navat?m upaiti tad eva r?pam rama??yat?y??
>>> 
>>> That which becomes new every moment is the very form of beauty.
>>> 
>>> The poems rehearse the same situations and often the same imagery over and over, yet each one seems to have something new and extraordinary that makes it different from the others.  In any event, I remember speaking with Rajam once about the Akananuru and she remarked how different the poems of Para?ar and Kapilar are.  After working through many poems, I am struck by how unerring her insight is (and I am indebted to her for pointing this out).  We constantly wonder about the authorship of these poems -- are the attributions simply made up, or are they real?  In some poems, it is clear that the anthologist has taken liberties -- I doubt that anyone really believes the poems attributed to P?ri Maka?ir are by P?ri's daughters.  But, after seeing how the techniques of P?ri and Kapilar are so different and how the poems of each have similar styles, I am beginning to wonder whether in fact the attributed authorship of the Sangam poems is not in fact accurate.  Is there any evidence, for example, that Kapilar did NOT write the century of poems in the Ainkurunuru attributed to him (Martha Selby has said she believes the Ainkurunuru to be late)?  Or that the Sangam poets who are supposed to have written the Pattupp???u may not have been the same as in "earlier" works.  Note that in Tamil love poetry and Poetics, Takahashi believes that some of the anthologies are late and thus that the authorial attributions are incorrect.  I'd be interested in what people think about this.  George=




From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Apr 17 21:23:45 2010
From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 10 21:23:45 +0000
Subject: Dialectic
Message-ID: <161227089286.23782.8770909575566856207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Friends:

 

Thank you Prof. Biernacki for suggesting the Sanskrit word anekantavaada for pluralistic thinking. 

 

Is there a word for dialectic thinking in Indian logic?

 

Regards.

 

Harsha

Harsha Dehejia

Professor of Indian Studies, Carleton Univeristy

Ottawa, ON.
 		 	   		  




From palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Apr 18 02:45:47 2010
From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 10 21:45:47 -0500
Subject: A note on Poets in the Akananuru
In-Reply-To: <9DF8CB37-274A-4D08-BA7F-108E4CC48F29@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089297.23782.17430066568527201654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear George,

Checking my earlier post on the web, I see that some lines of the poem have mysteriously disappeared. So I am resending the post with some additional information.

In fact, I think the very presence of Kapilar as a family friend suggests that the attribution could be true indeed. U. V?. C?min?taiyar describes the poetic abilities of his teacher M????cicuntaram Pi??ai (1815-1876) at about the same age. So, if the girls had studied Tamil with Kapilar, the two girls could have been excellent poets in their own right. I do not think it would be anything unusual for them to compose such a poem. Moreover, the very structure of the poem suggests that authorship by two persons is very possible as seen below

a??ait ti?ka? avve? nilavi?
entaiyum u?aiy?m em ku??um pi?ar ko??r 

i??ait ti?ka? ivve? nilavi?
ve??e?i muraci? v?ntar em
ku??um ko?t?r y?m entaiyum ilam?

The first two lines could have been uttered by one daughter and the other three lines by another daughter. This pattern of two-person song-making/word play is common in folk songs and this has been depicted in the Tamil epic poetry of the Cilappatik?ram (Ku??akkuravai 12-14), in Bhakti poetry like the Tiruv?cakam (Tirucc??al), and in modern film songs. Although Ku??akkuravai and Tirucc??al are considered to be imitative of originals prevalent in the folk culture, the poem by P?ri's daughters could be an original. The only difference between Pu?am 112 and the later examples in the Cilappatik?ram and the Tiruv?cakam seems to be that the lines in the poem by Pari's daughters do not seem to be addressed to each other but to a third person (Kapilar?).

So, I do not think there is any reason to doubt the traditional attribution of the poem to P?ri Maka?ir.

Talking of Ku??akkuravai 12-14, they also indicate that the source of the genre of ant?di could be in the folk culture and be very old.  

Regards,
Palaniappan



On Apr 17, 2010, at 4:45 PM, George Hart wrote:

> Dear Palaniappan,
> 
> Just what seems likely, I suppose.  Everyone may not know the story.  The great poet Kapilar was patronized by P?ri, who ruled over a small mountain called Pa?ampu.  P?ri was (and still is) renowned for his generosity, and as a result the three great kings, Chera Chola and Pandya, became jealous, joined together, and laid siege to Pa?ampu.  In the end, they could not take it by force, but were able to do so by treachery.  P?ri was killed, and Kapilar (a Brahmin) was spared.  Kapilar took P?ri's daughters to many kings and attempted to get them married but was unsuccessful.  In the end, he is supposed to have married them to other Brahmins.  The poems Kapilar wrote about this are some of the most beautiful in any literature.  There is one poem attributed to P?ri's daughters:
> 
> On that day, under the white light of that moon,
> we had our father and no enemies had taken the hill.
> On this day, under the white light of this moon, the kings,
> royal drums beating out the victory,
> have taken the hill.  And we! we have no father.
> 
> The power of these lines has echoed through almost 2000 years of Tamil history.  It seems to me unlikely that two young (12?) girls could compose such a master poem, especially when Kapilar, whom we know was a great poet, was with them and experienced what they did.  Of course, there is no way of being 100% certain that the girls did not have a part in the poem -- it is not unlikely they said something and Kapilar put it into poetry.  George
> 




From rajam at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Apr 18 16:13:30 2010
From: rajam at EARTHLINK.NET (rajam)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 10 09:13:30 -0700
Subject: a question on manuscript traditions
In-Reply-To: <4B21C556-8EF5-406A-9B02-0D4D21C9E64A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227089305.23782.9479488325301689013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks for the detailed information! It is very helpful So, it does  
look like there was a practice to write a sacred term in manuscripts,  
and it existed prior to the 16-th century when Fr. Henriques prepared  
his grammar of Tamil in Portuguese. Apparently, young men were  
trained in Goa to write in local scripts. The manuscript I'm studying  
seems to contain at least two different handwritings (although one  
dominates).

Interestingly, in some families in the South, "hari.h om" is the very  
first set of words a child is guided to write on rice grains at the  
time of starting formal education. But then this practice is not  
universal and is followed at home at a private religious ceremony.

Regards,
Rajam

On Apr 17, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote:

>>> Was it a practice in ancient India
>>> to put some sort of a "divine symbol" on every page of a manuscript?
>
>
> I find one 12th-century example of this sort of practice. So if the  
> C12th qualifies as "ancient", then the answer is "Yes, but the  
> practice appears not to have been very common."
>
> Here are some notes from what I have to hand.
>
> Quite a few nineteenth- and twentieth-century Nepalese MSS on  
> paper, both religious and non-religious, also have raama or raama.h  
> written on the bottom right-hand margin of each verso, e.g.
> NGMPP B 304/8, NGMPP A 136/10 and NGMPP A366/4, all 3 Devanaagarii  
> MS of the Kaavyaala"nkaarasuutrav.rtti; NGMPP A 182/2; a  
> Devanaagarii MS of a "Saiva prati.s.thaatantra called the  
> Mohacuu.dottara; NGMPP A 375/7, a Devanaagarii MS of the  
> Vyaakhyaasudhaa (a commentary on the Kumaarasambhava).
>
> A few Maithilii- and Newari-script MSS have "srii (sometimes with  
> other ornaments) in the side margins of each verso: e.g. NGMPP A  
> 375/3, a Newari-script MS of the Vyaakhyaasudhaa; NGMPP A 21/25, a  
> palm-leaf Maithili-script MS of the Kaavyaala"nkaarasuutrav.rtti;  
> NGMPP M 172/4, a paper Maithili-script MS of a commentary on the  
> Raghuva.m"sa, which has also has "sriikaalikaayai nama.h at the top  
> left of each verso.
>
> I don't think I have seen this sort of practice being followed in  
> Grantha-script MSS from the South and I find no instance at the  
> moment.  (There, I am used to seeing only the odd folio having  
> hari.h om written in a left-hand margin, on the side on which a new  
> text happens to start.)
>
> It seems to be relatively uncommon in "Saaradaa MS too, but the  
> codex unicus of the Tattvatrayanir.naviv.rti of Raamaka.n.tha has  
> "srii in the bottom left of each verso (Lucknow, Akhila Bharatiya  
> Sanskrit Parishad, Accession No. 2390), and quite a number of  
> folios of a MS of the same author's Mata"ngav.rtti have o.m (or o.m  
> nama.h) written in the centre at the top of the recto (BORI, Pune,  
> 232, 235, 236 of 1883--84).
>
> Even in times and places where this sort of practice was common, I  
> have the impression that there are rather more MSS that do not have  
> auspicious words or symbols in at least one margin of every folio  
> than MSS that do.
>
> The oldest dated MS that I know of which follows such a practice is  
> a proto-Newari-script MS transmitting the Praaya"scittasamuccaya (a  
> "Saiva compendium of chapters from tantric works on expiation by a  
> certain H.rdaya"siva).   That MS (Cambridge Add 2833) has "srii in  
> the left hand margin on the reverse of every folio, just above the  
> foliation.  It is dated Samvat 278 (= 1157/8 AD).
>
> I am not aware of other MSS of comparably early date which have  
> auspicious words or symbols on every folio.
>
> Dominic Goodall
>
> On 18 Apr 2010, at 05:45, Ashok Aklujkar wrote:
>
>> I have come across Devanaagarii mss in which "raama" was written  
>> on every
>> folio. I do not have the time at present to locate their copies  
>> again. My
>> recollection is that they were about 300 years old.
>>
>> ashok aklujkar
>>
>>
>> On 10-04-15 10:44 PM, "rajam" <rajam at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
>>
>>> Was it a practice in ancient India
>>> to put some sort of a "divine symbol" on every page of a manuscript?




From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM  Sun Apr 18 04:30:21 2010
From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 10 10:00:21 +0530
Subject: a question on manuscript traditions
In-Reply-To: <C7EF9D4C.4801%ashok.aklujkar@ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <161227089302.23782.7069150432566678030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>> Was it a practice in ancient India
>> to put some sort of a "divine symbol" on every page of a manuscript?


I find one 12th-century example of this sort of practice. So if the  
C12th qualifies as "ancient", then the answer is "Yes, but the  
practice appears not to have been very common."

Here are some notes from what I have to hand.

Quite a few nineteenth- and twentieth-century Nepalese MSS on paper,  
both religious and non-religious, also have raama or raama.h written  
on the bottom right-hand margin of each verso, e.g.
NGMPP B 304/8, NGMPP A 136/10 and NGMPP A366/4, all 3 Devanaagarii MS  
of the Kaavyaala"nkaarasuutrav.rtti; NGMPP A 182/2; a Devanaagarii MS  
of a "Saiva prati.s.thaatantra called the Mohacuu.dottara; NGMPP A  
375/7, a Devanaagarii MS of the Vyaakhyaasudhaa (a commentary on the  
Kumaarasambhava).

A few Maithilii- and Newari-script MSS have "srii (sometimes with  
other ornaments) in the side margins of each verso: e.g. NGMPP A  
375/3, a Newari-script MS of the Vyaakhyaasudhaa; NGMPP A 21/25, a  
palm-leaf Maithili-script MS of the Kaavyaala"nkaarasuutrav.rtti;  
NGMPP M 172/4, a paper Maithili-script MS of a commentary on the  
Raghuva.m"sa, which has also has "sriikaalikaayai nama.h at the top  
left of each verso.

I don't think I have seen this sort of practice being followed in  
Grantha-script MSS from the South and I find no instance at the  
moment.  (There, I am used to seeing only the odd folio having hari.h  
om written in a left-hand margin, on the side on which a new text  
happens to start.)

It seems to be relatively uncommon in "Saaradaa MS too, but the codex  
unicus of the Tattvatrayanir.naviv.rti of Raamaka.n.tha has "srii in  
the bottom left of each verso (Lucknow, Akhila Bharatiya Sanskrit  
Parishad, Accession No. 2390), and quite a number of folios of a MS of  
the same author's Mata"ngav.rtti have o.m (or o.m nama.h) written in  
the centre at the top of the recto (BORI, Pune, 232, 235, 236 of  
1883--84).

Even in times and places where this sort of practice was common, I  
have the impression that there are rather more MSS that do not have  
auspicious words or symbols in at least one margin of every folio than  
MSS that do.

The oldest dated MS that I know of which follows such a practice is a  
proto-Newari-script MS transmitting the Praaya"scittasamuccaya (a  
"Saiva compendium of chapters from tantric works on expiation by a  
certain H.rdaya"siva).   That MS (Cambridge Add 2833) has "srii in the  
left hand margin on the reverse of every folio, just above the  
foliation.  It is dated Samvat 278 (= 1157/8 AD).

I am not aware of other MSS of comparably early date which have  
auspicious words or symbols on every folio.

Dominic Goodall

On 18 Apr 2010, at 05:45, Ashok Aklujkar wrote:

> I have come across Devanaagarii mss in which "raama" was written on  
> every
> folio. I do not have the time at present to locate their copies  
> again. My
> recollection is that they were about 300 years old.
>
> ashok aklujkar
>
>
> On 10-04-15 10:44 PM, "rajam" <rajam at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
>
>> Was it a practice in ancient India
>> to put some sort of a "divine symbol" on every page of a manuscript?




From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU  Sun Apr 18 20:22:19 2010
From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 10 13:22:19 -0700
Subject: A note on Poets in the Akananuru
In-Reply-To: <6C6F8FD0-B2C2-493B-A834-65C5C873687A@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227089310.23782.1063978631972471349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Palaniappan,

I think we have pretty much exhausted this and I very much appreciate your ideas and responses.  While I don't agree with all of your points, they have provided much food for thought -- and nothing could be more valuable than that.  As for the use of -m, I would go no further than Ku?untokai 234, the famous evening poem, where the "m" sounds are clearly meant to evoke the suffering of the talaivi when evening comes and to contrast with the description of the dawn, with its "k" "?" and "p" sounds.  Of course, m sounds don't always evoke sadness, but that doesn't mean poets don't sometimes use them that way (as in the poem above and the poem attributed to P?ri's daughters).  And yes, it's true that the phrase about conquering kings occurs elsewhere.  I believe the poets were imitating the oral literature of the P??a?s and Ki?aiya?s, and like all oral literature, theirs must have had formulae (such as ve??e?i muraci? v?ntar).  The art of the poet lies in putting such lines -- which could be pedestrian in some contexts -- into the proper setting.  It's been claimed that the greatest line in English literature comes at the end of Lear: "Never, never, never, never, never."  (Don't know if this is the right punctuation).  In the mouth of a great actor, each of these "never's" means something different and more devastating than the one before.  Many thanks for an intriguing discussion!  George

On Apr 18, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:

> Dear Indologists not familiar with Pu?an????u,
> 
> In order not to spoil the dramatic impact of poems discussed below, if you are unfamiliar with the poems and have access to "The Four Hundred Songs of War and Wisdom" by George Hart and Hank Heifetz, please read the translations of poems 105-120, 200-202, and 236 some of which are discussed below.
> 
> Dear George, 
> 
> Although Pu?an????u is an anthology of individual poems, as is well known, it includes what could be considered some series of poems from which one could construct stories of tragedies, the best being the story of P?ri and Kapilar in my opinion. We do not have such a detailed discussion of the aftermath of a tragedy in other cases. In the poems 105-120, poem 112 alone is not by Kapilar. For some, it is this intrusive positioning of a poem by P?ri's daughters in the middle of the poems by Kapilar that could cause doubts about the validity of the traditional attribution of authorship. I think the lasting impact of the poem is not only due to its own content but also due to its dramatic positioning by the anthologist amidst the poems by Kapilar. If one looks at the poems 105-111, it is one of happiness, praising of and supreme confidence in the strength of P?ri and his domain. In poem 110, Kapilar's total identification with P?ri is seen in his statement to the three kings as seen below
> 
> "....But if you will go
> and you will sing to him, you win us and P?ri and his mountain!"
> 
> In poem 111, Kapilar's attitude towards the three kings is demonstrated even better.
> 
> "Of course the great dark hill is a miserable place!
> To conquer it by the spear would be hard for kings
> but easy to win for a woman with a drum, her blackened eyes
> like two blue waterlilies, if she comes to it singing!"
> 
> Till poem 111, there is not the slightest hint of anything going to be amiss. But if a person unfamiliar with the story is reading the poems in the anthology sequentially, poem 112 is a shocker. One is not prepared for what is revealed in poem 112. It is in poem 112 the defeat and death of P?ri is revealed for the first time and that too, through the words of the daughters of P?ri. Although the poems follow an overall chronology with respect to Kapilar's poems, poem 112 seems to be out of place in terms of chronology. For instance, poem 114 by Kapilar should be earlier in time than poem 112. In poem 114, the hill of P?ri is still visible to Kapilar as they walk away. In poem 112, at least one month must have intervened between the departure from P?ri's hill and the time of composition of the poem. This is how A. K. Ramanujan (Poems of Love and War, p. 145) translates it.
> 
> That month
> in that white moonlight
> 
>    we had our father
>    and no one
>    could take the hill.
> 
> This month
> in this white moonlight
> 
>    kings with drums
>    drumming victory
>    have taken over the hill
> 
> and we 
> have no father.
> 
> (Going by the contents of poems 200-202, it is obvious that other chieftains were reluctant to marry the girls, possibly due to their fear of the three kings. In that case, it would make sense for Kapilar to take them far from their home as quickly as possible and not stay in the area for more than a month.) This shows it is deliberate on the part of the anthologist to place poem 112 where it is in the current anthology. And he seems to have succeeded in the effect he wanted to achieve.
> 
> Coming to the detailed analysis of poem 112,  
> 
> Line 3 ( i??ait ti?ka? ivve? nilavi?) contrasts with line 1 (a??ait ti?ka? avve? nilavi?)
> Line 4-5 (em ku??um ko?t?r y?m entaiyum ilam?) contrasts with line 2 ( entaiyum u?aiy?m em ku??um pi?ar ko??r)
> 
> More specifically "em ku??um ko?t?r" contrasts with "em ku??um... ko??r" and "entaiyum ilam?" contrasts with "entaiyum u?aiy?m" simply and directly. Leaving aside the word y?m (we), it is really the elaboration of "pi?ar" in Line 2 to "ve??u e?i muraci? v?ntar" that needs to be looked at carefully. If one looks at the translation above it is "no one " being elaborated into "kings with drums drumming victory". (The use of "ve??u e?i muraci? v?ntar" also facilitates the order of enumeration of losses in the last line keeping the most critical loss, P?ri's death, to the climactic conclusion of the poem.)
> 
> "ve??u e?i muraci? v?ntar" is a stock phrase we encounter in other Classical poems. In Pu?an????u 351.5, the exact phrase occurs. In Ku?untokai 380.1-2, we have 
> "v?ntar ve??u e?i muraci?" In these other instances in Classical Tamil poetry, the phrase has a very positive connotation describing the ability of the kings to wage war and win according to the norms of the heroic age. But, given the attitude of Kapilar expressed in poems prior to 112 and the treachery of the three kings, one can doubt if Kapilar would have ever brought himself to describe the three kings using such a positive phrase even in a sense of sarcasm.  On the other hand, the young girls might have used it. The statement, though, would look to an adult as one of sarcasm. In my opinion, the impact of this poem on the reader is akin to that of the impact on adults when they hear the innocent statements of child victims of tragedies regarding the tragedies or their aftermath. One feels immensely sad for the children and is outraged at the sheer injustice of it all.  Of course, this is all a subjective interpretation of the poem. 
> 
> In the final analysis, I wonder if there is enough objective information available to say with certainty that the traditional attribution is wrong. We may have to agree to disagree.
> 
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
> 
> P.S: Although this is not central to the discussion, in my opinion, it is doubtful if the occurrences of -m sounds per se suggests a dirge. If one looks at poem 110 given below, one can see many  -m sounds. But it is not a dirge. 
> 
> ka?antu a?u t??ai m?virum k??i
> u?a??a?ir ?yi?um pa?ampu ko?a?ku arit?
> munn??u ?rtt? ta? pa?ampu na????u
> y?mum p?riyum u?am?
> ku??um u??u  n?r p??inir celi??
> 
> The famous poem, Ku?untokai 40 given below has a lot of -m sounds but it is anything but a dirge.
> 
> y?yum ??yum y?r ?kiyar?
> entaiyum nuntaiyum emmu?aik k??ir
> y??um n?yum evva?i a?itum
> cempulap peyal n?r p?la
> a?pu?ai ne?jam t?m kalanta?av?
> 
> What is my mother to yours?
> How is my father related to your father?
> And I and you
> How did we two meet?
> Like the waters of rain pouring down on red soil
> The two loving hearts themselves
> Blended with each other                     (K. Zvelebil's translation, "The Smile of Murugan", p.75 )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 17, 2010, at 9:53 PM, George Hart wrote:
> 
>> Dear Palaniappan,
>> 
>> I think you underestimate the quality of the poem and the skill of the poet.  It takes a poet of transcendent ability to write something so simple and perfect.  If you will look at the rhythmic structure, you'll see that the first three lines move in a stately, regular way, suggesting normality.  Suddenly the normality is broken violently by the rhythms and sounds of the fourth line "kings whose royal drum are struck in victory."  The line ends with "em," presaging a return to the "normality" of the first three lines, but there is no normality.  The last line (actually beginning with the last word of line 4) is full of -m sounds, which suggests a sort of dirge, and yet it brings back the "normal," regular rhythms of the first three.  This line  is unbearably sad; it suggests that even though nature and life seem unchanged outwardly, nothing will ever be the same.  This is not a poem that could have been uttered by little girls, in my opinion.  The use of rhythm, alliteration, and the depth of human experience it mirrors could only be the products of a mature, master poet.  You might note the poem in which Kapilar describes the little girls who before would count the horses of enemy kings laying siege to Pa?ampu and now (after their father's death) count the wagons of salt merchants.  I'm putting it in below -- note the whole point of the poem is that, like all children, P?ri's daughters are blithely unaffected by the tragedy that has befallen them and still enjoy life as if nothing had happened.  The poem, of course, is ironic: that the little girls stand in a wilderness counting salt wagons shows how far their status has fallen from when they were the daughters of a king and counted the horses of enemy kings.  The poem attributed to P?ri Maka?ir shows a far more mature reaction to tragedy than one would expect from little girls.  I do agree that Kapilar here is probably using some poetic conventions from folk poetry.  George
>> 
>> 116
>> 
>> Skirts of waterlilies sway across their thighs, made of full-blown
>> blossoms that grew in large, deep springs where the water is sweet.
>> With their cool and beautiful eyes, their light laughter, the girls
>> climb up on a heap covered with dwarf datepalm, where sponge gourd
>> has rooted and calabash has spread, near a hut that has cotton
>> growing in the front yard, and there is a fence of thorns and near it
>> are twisting paths choked up with grass, and standing there on the mound,
>> they count the wagons that carry the salt for the salt merchants.
>> I feel pain and how I wish that my life were over!  There was a time
>> when they would climb the highest peak on the wide mountain
>> where prosperity was unending and the peacocks would rise up 
>> and dance in gardens of cultivated flowers while on the great slopes
>> planted with crops, there were monkeys that were swinging and leaping,
>> and trees gave fruit in and out of season, so many that the monkeys
>> could not take them all; and as the kings with their great armies
>> came against the hill in war, ignorant of how difficult it would be
>> to prevail against their father P?ri, he who wielded a sharp spear, 
>> he who was the master of abundant toddy, 
>> from the peak the girls would count the proud horses bearing the iron weapons of kings!
>> 
>> Kapilar sings V?? P?ri.  Ti?ai: potuviyal.  Tu?ai: kaiya?unilai.
>> 
>> 




From palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Apr 18 19:16:20 2010
From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 10 14:16:20 -0500
Subject: A note on Poets in the Akananuru
In-Reply-To: <8D6BE20E-6D08-4ABC-960B-7816FD011839@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089307.23782.6075035039069373872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists not familiar with Pu?an????u,

In order not to spoil the dramatic impact of poems discussed below, if you are unfamiliar with the poems and have access to "The Four Hundred Songs of War and Wisdom" by George Hart and Hank Heifetz, please read the translations of poems 105-120, 200-202, and 236 some of which are discussed below.

Dear George, 

Although Pu?an????u is an anthology of individual poems, as is well known, it includes what could be considered some series of poems from which one could construct stories of tragedies, the best being the story of P?ri and Kapilar in my opinion. We do not have such a detailed discussion of the aftermath of a tragedy in other cases. In the poems 105-120, poem 112 alone is not by Kapilar. For some, it is this intrusive positioning of a poem by P?ri's daughters in the middle of the poems by Kapilar that could cause doubts about the validity of the traditional attribution of authorship. I think the lasting impact of the poem is not only due to its own content but also due to its dramatic positioning by the anthologist amidst the poems by Kapilar. If one looks at the poems 105-111, it is one of happiness, praising of and supreme confidence in the strength of P?ri and his domain. In poem 110, Kapilar's total identification with P?ri is seen in his statement to the three kings as seen below

"....But if you will go
and you will sing to him, you win us and P?ri and his mountain!"

In poem 111, Kapilar's attitude towards the three kings is demonstrated even better.

"Of course the great dark hill is a miserable place!
To conquer it by the spear would be hard for kings
but easy to win for a woman with a drum, her blackened eyes
like two blue waterlilies, if she comes to it singing!"

Till poem 111, there is not the slightest hint of anything going to be amiss. But if a person unfamiliar with the story is reading the poems in the anthology sequentially, poem 112 is a shocker. One is not prepared for what is revealed in poem 112. It is in poem 112 the defeat and death of P?ri is revealed for the first time and that too, through the words of the daughters of P?ri. Although the poems follow an overall chronology with respect to Kapilar's poems, poem 112 seems to be out of place in terms of chronology. For instance, poem 114 by Kapilar should be earlier in time than poem 112. In poem 114, the hill of P?ri is still visible to Kapilar as they walk away. In poem 112, at least one month must have intervened between the departure from P?ri's hill and the time of composition of the poem. This is how A. K. Ramanujan (Poems of Love and War, p. 145) translates it.

That month
in that white moonlight

    we had our father
    and no one
    could take the hill.

This month
in this white moonlight
   
    kings with drums
    drumming victory
    have taken over the hill

and we 
have no father.

(Going by the contents of poems 200-202, it is obvious that other chieftains were reluctant to marry the girls, possibly due to their fear of the three kings. In that case, it would make sense for Kapilar to take them far from their home as quickly as possible and not stay in the area for more than a month.) This shows it is deliberate on the part of the anthologist to place poem 112 where it is in the current anthology. And he seems to have succeeded in the effect he wanted to achieve.

Coming to the detailed analysis of poem 112,  

Line 3 ( i??ait ti?ka? ivve? nilavi?) contrasts with line 1 (a??ait ti?ka? avve? nilavi?)
Line 4-5 (em ku??um ko?t?r y?m entaiyum ilam?) contrasts with line 2 ( entaiyum u?aiy?m em ku??um pi?ar ko??r)

More specifically "em ku??um ko?t?r" contrasts with "em ku??um... ko??r" and "entaiyum ilam?" contrasts with "entaiyum u?aiy?m" simply and directly. Leaving aside the word y?m (we), it is really the elaboration of "pi?ar" in Line 2 to "ve??u e?i muraci? v?ntar" that needs to be looked at carefully. If one looks at the translation above it is "no one " being elaborated into "kings with drums drumming victory". (The use of "ve??u e?i muraci? v?ntar" also facilitates the order of enumeration of losses in the last line keeping the most critical loss, P?ri's death, to the climactic conclusion of the poem.)

"ve??u e?i muraci? v?ntar" is a stock phrase we encounter in other Classical poems. In Pu?an????u 351.5, the exact phrase occurs. In Ku?untokai 380.1-2, we have 
"v?ntar ve??u e?i muraci?" In these other instances in Classical Tamil poetry, the phrase has a very positive connotation describing the ability of the kings to wage war and win according to the norms of the heroic age. But, given the attitude of Kapilar expressed in poems prior to 112 and the treachery of the three kings, one can doubt if Kapilar would have ever brought himself to describe the three kings using such a positive phrase even in a sense of sarcasm.  On the other hand, the young girls might have used it. The statement, though, would look to an adult as one of sarcasm. In my opinion, the impact of this poem on the reader is akin to that of the impact on adults when they hear the innocent statements of child victims of tragedies regarding the tragedies or their aftermath. One feels immensely sad for the children and is outraged at the sheer injustice of it all.  Of course, this is all a subjective interpretation of the poem. 

In the final analysis, I wonder if there is enough objective information available to say with certainty that the traditional attribution is wrong. We may have to agree to disagree.

Regards,
Palaniappan

P.S: Although this is not central to the discussion, in my opinion, it is doubtful if the occurrences of -m sounds per se suggests a dirge. If one looks at poem 110 given below, one can see many  -m sounds. But it is not a dirge. 

ka?antu a?u t??ai m?virum k??i
u?a??a?ir ?yi?um pa?ampu ko?a?ku arit?
munn??u ?rtt? ta? pa?ampu na????u
y?mum p?riyum u?am?
ku??um u??u  n?r p??inir celi??

The famous poem, Ku?untokai 40 given below has a lot of -m sounds but it is anything but a dirge.

y?yum ??yum y?r ?kiyar?
entaiyum nuntaiyum emmu?aik k??ir
y??um n?yum evva?i a?itum
cempulap peyal n?r p?la
a?pu?ai ne?jam t?m kalanta?av?

What is my mother to yours?
How is my father related to your father?
And I and you
How did we two meet?
Like the waters of rain pouring down on red soil
The two loving hearts themselves
Blended with each other                     (K. Zvelebil's translation, "The Smile of Murugan", p.75 )




On Apr 17, 2010, at 9:53 PM, George Hart wrote:

> Dear Palaniappan,
> 
> I think you underestimate the quality of the poem and the skill of the poet.  It takes a poet of transcendent ability to write something so simple and perfect.  If you will look at the rhythmic structure, you'll see that the first three lines move in a stately, regular way, suggesting normality.  Suddenly the normality is broken violently by the rhythms and sounds of the fourth line "kings whose royal drum are struck in victory."  The line ends with "em," presaging a return to the "normality" of the first three lines, but there is no normality.  The last line (actually beginning with the last word of line 4) is full of -m sounds, which suggests a sort of dirge, and yet it brings back the "normal," regular rhythms of the first three.  This line  is unbearably sad; it suggests that even though nature and life seem unchanged outwardly, nothing will ever be the same.  This is not a poem that could have been uttered by little girls, in my opinion.  The use of rhythm, alliteration, and the depth of human experience it mirrors could only be the products of a mature, master poet.  You might note the poem in which Kapilar describes the little girls who before would count the horses of enemy kings laying siege to Pa?ampu and now (after their father's death) count the wagons of salt merchants.  I'm putting it in below -- note the whole point of the poem is that, like all children, P?ri's daughters are blithely unaffected by the tragedy that has befallen them and still enjoy life as if nothing had happened.  The poem, of course, is ironic: that the little girls stand in a wilderness counting salt wagons shows how far their status has fallen from when they were the daughters of a king and counted the horses of enemy kings.  The poem attributed to P?ri Maka?ir shows a far more mature reaction to tragedy than one would expect from little girls.  I do agree that Kapilar here is probably using some poetic conventions from folk poetry.  George
> 
> 116
> 
> Skirts of waterlilies sway across their thighs, made of full-blown
> blossoms that grew in large, deep springs where the water is sweet.
> With their cool and beautiful eyes, their light laughter, the girls
> climb up on a heap covered with dwarf datepalm, where sponge gourd
> has rooted and calabash has spread, near a hut that has cotton
> growing in the front yard, and there is a fence of thorns and near it
> are twisting paths choked up with grass, and standing there on the mound,
> they count the wagons that carry the salt for the salt merchants.
> I feel pain and how I wish that my life were over!  There was a time
> when they would climb the highest peak on the wide mountain
> where prosperity was unending and the peacocks would rise up 
> and dance in gardens of cultivated flowers while on the great slopes
> planted with crops, there were monkeys that were swinging and leaping,
> and trees gave fruit in and out of season, so many that the monkeys
> could not take them all; and as the kings with their great armies
> came against the hill in war, ignorant of how difficult it would be
> to prevail against their father P?ri, he who wielded a sharp spear, 
> he who was the master of abundant toddy, 
> from the peak the girls would count the proud horses bearing the iron weapons of kings!
> 
> Kapilar sings V?? P?ri.  Ti?ai: potuviyal.  Tu?ai: kaiya?unilai.
> 
> 




From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR  Mon Apr 19 07:01:28 2010
From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 10 09:01:28 +0200
Subject: A note on Poets in the Akananuru
In-Reply-To: <6C6F8FD0-B2C2-493B-A834-65C5C873687A@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227089312.23782.13706228522127887413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear S. Palaniappan,

once could also see it the other way round
and say that the group of poems under consideration
is what remains of a bigger structure
which may have contained Verse linked by Prose,
like what we have in the ???? ?????? [p?rata ve?p?],
????????, ?????, ????? ????????? [uttiy?ka, v??uma, tur??a paruva?ka?]
as it was printed in 1925,
[patipp?ciriya?: pa??ita a. k?p?laiya?].


Another possibility is to say
that the group of poems alludes, in a learned way, to local popular 
performances.

Think of what Gananath Obeyesekere writes on pp.605-606
in his 1984 book /The Cult of the Goddess Pattini/
(The University of Chicago Press, ISBN 0-226-61602-9)

He writes
<QUOTE>
It seems apparent to me that most South Indian scholars are wrong when 
they assume that the ritual texts derive from the /Cilappatik?ram/; the 
contrary is truer, that the /Cilappatik?ram/ is a well-crafted work of 
art that uses material from a preexistent and coexistent ritual 
tradition. (p.605)
[...]
I agree with South Indian scholars like Dikshitar who state that C?tta? 
narrated the events he actually saw (Dikshitar 1939, p.71), except that 
I think C?tta? saw not a natural event but a ritual drama.! (p.606)
<QUOTE>

Regards

-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)

Le 4/18/2010 9:16 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan a ?crit :
> [....]
> Although Pu?an????u is an anthology of individual poems, as is well known, it includes what could be considered some series of poems from which one could construct stories of tragedies, the best being the story of P?ri and Kapilar in my opinion.
>    




From rajam at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Apr 19 20:32:04 2010
From: rajam at EARTHLINK.NET (rajam)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 10 13:32:04 -0700
Subject: critiques of sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <u2ub4dadfb91004191239x2c43ca3et99d9fb2662d8c2d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227089324.23782.2454910931970047683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Manimekalai is a literary work in Tamil, and it is the first epic- 
type of text that contains information regarding "critique of Vedic  
sacrifice," and it openly promotes Buddhism. I'd be happy to help you/ 
anyone with further details.

Regards,
V.S. Rajam
(<www.letsgrammar.org>)

On Apr 19, 2010, at 12:39 PM, Finnian Moore Gerety wrote:

> Dear List--
> Can anyone recommend primary or secondary literature on critiques  
> of Vedic
> sacrifice and orthopraxy? I am interested in Buddhist & Jain  
> critiques as
> well as those from within the Brahmanic fold.
>
> Thanks
>
> Finnian Moore Gerety
>
> doctoral student, Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard  
> University




From athr at LOC.GOV  Mon Apr 19 19:25:25 2010
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 10 15:25:25 -0400
Subject: a question on manuscript traditions
Message-ID: <161227089314.23782.11372589224684898196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think there is some mention of a Jesuit tradition of writing some sort of invocation on each page in Jonathan Spence's Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci.  I will see if I can find the place.

You might also contact Prof. Noel Sheth, S.J., the latest email I have for whom is 
nsheth43 at gmail.com, or Prof. Frank Clooney, S.J., 
fclooney at hds.harvard.edu, who could refer you to confreres working on Indo-Jesuit writings of the period.

Allen
Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Team Coordinator
South Asia Team, Asian Division
Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.




From fmgerety at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Apr 19 19:39:11 2010
From: fmgerety at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Finnian Moore Gerety)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 10 15:39:11 -0400
Subject: critiques of sacrifice
Message-ID: <161227089316.23782.10204263668356889649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List--
Can anyone recommend primary or secondary literature on critiques of Vedic
sacrifice and orthopraxy? I am interested in Buddhist & Jain critiques as
well as those from within the Brahmanic fold.

Thanks

Finnian Moore Gerety

doctoral student, Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University




From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE  Mon Apr 19 20:02:38 2010
From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 10 20:02:38 +0000
Subject: AW: critiques of sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <u2ub4dadfb91004191239x2c43ca3et99d9fb2662d8c2d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227089318.23782.17877977426735491978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anguttaranikaya IV 39 is a locus classicus for the critique of the Buddha on sacrifices
 ------------------------------
Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels
Acting Director Excellence Cluster "Asia and Europe in a Global Context", Sprecher des SFB 619 ("Ritualdynamik")

Universit?t Heidelberg, S?dasien-Institut, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, D-69120 Heidelberg
Tel. +49-6221-548917 / Fax +49-6221-546338
http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/ -- www.ritualdynamik.uni-hd.de -- http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/index.html
Emails: sek-michaels at uni-heidelberg.de (SAI office) -- Axel.Michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (official and personal) -- michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Cluster mail)




________________________________
Von: Finnian Moore Gerety <fmgerety at FAS.HARVARD.EDU>
An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Gesendet: Montag, den 19. April 2010, 21:39:11 Uhr
Betreff: critiques of sacrifice

Dear List--
Can anyone recommend primary or secondary literature on critiques of Vedic
sacrifice and orthopraxy? I am interested in Buddhist & Jain critiques as
well as those from within the Brahmanic fold.

Thanks

Finnian Moore Gerety

doctoral student, Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University





From veltsch at OEAW.AC.AT  Mon Apr 19 20:28:56 2010
From: veltsch at OEAW.AC.AT (Vincent Eltschinger)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 10 22:28:56 +0200
Subject: critiques of sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <u2ub4dadfb91004191239x2c43ca3et99d9fb2662d8c2d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227089321.23782.15693144446575307894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Finnian,
Direct criticism of Vedic sacrifice or even Hindu puujaa is surprisingly
rare in Buddhist Sanskrit literature. What the Buddhist intellectuals are
prone to criticize is, e.g., the ontological presuppositions behind the
caste system (Eltschinger 2001 - sorry), or meat eating as a consequence
of animal slaughter (e.g., in the 10th chapter of the La.nkaavataarasuutra
or the 9th chapter of Bhavya's Madhyamakah.rdayakaarikaa), not without a
certain amount of hypocrisy in both cases, however. One thing that comes
immediately to mind is the Buddhists' repeated attacks on tiirthasnaana,
i.e., ablutions (see the references in La Vall?e Poussin,
L'Abhidharmako'sa..., vol. III.135n. 2 and 189n. 3, IV.76nn. 3-5; to these
references one may add Huber, Suutraala.mkaara, p. 439, Bhavya's
Madhyamakah.rdayakaarikaa 9.120-123, Ui Hakuju, The Vai'seshika
Philosophy, p. 74, and Benoytosh Bhattacharya, An Introduction to Buddhist
Esoterism, p. 119). In Abhidharmic terms, sacrifices, etc., fall under the
category of 'siilavrataparaamar'sa (as one among the d.r.s.tis or "false
views"), and Vasubandhu's critique of it should be regarded as
paradigmatic. The Buddhist Pramaa.na tradition has also developed
interesting arguments against ablutions, especially in connection with
Pramaa.navaarttikasvav.rtti (Gnoli edition) 109,1-3 and Pramaa.navaarttika
1.340 (see 'Saakyabuddhi's and Kar.nakagomin's elaborations on the
stanza). To the late Buddhist philosophers, these arguments were also
relevant concerning homa, agnihotra, japa, upavaasa, etc. Here again,
Dharmakiirti's treatment must be considered as paradigmatic regarding the
structure of any kind of argument directed against the alleged efficacy of
rituals.
With very best wishes
Vincent Eltschinger

Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Prinz-Eugen-Strasse 8-10
A-1050 Vienna


> Dear List--
> Can anyone recommend primary or secondary literature on critiques of Vedic
> sacrifice and orthopraxy? I am interested in Buddhist & Jain critiques as
> well as those from within the Brahmanic fold.
>
> Thanks
>
> Finnian Moore Gerety
>
> doctoral student, Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
>




From kengo.harimoto at UNI-HAMBURG.DE  Mon Apr 19 22:01:57 2010
From: kengo.harimoto at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Kengo Harimoto)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 10 00:01:57 +0200
Subject: critiques of sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <u2ub4dadfb91004191239x2c43ca3et99d9fb2662d8c2d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227089326.23782.7815052585230087640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Wilhelm Halbfass, "Vedic Apologetics, Ritual Killing, and the Foundation of Ethics," in _Tradition and Reflection_, State University of New York Press, Albany, 1991

may contain some useful information.

-- 
kengo harimoto

On Apr 19, 2010, at 21:39 , Finnian Moore Gerety wrote:

> Dear List--
> Can anyone recommend primary or secondary literature on critiques of Vedic
> sacrifice and orthopraxy? I am interested in Buddhist & Jain critiques as
> well as those from within the Brahmanic fold.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Finnian Moore Gerety
> 
> doctoral student, Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University




From fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Apr 20 06:12:37 2010
From: fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM (Benjamin Fleming)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 10 02:12:37 -0400
Subject: critiques of sacrifice
Message-ID: <161227089334.23782.8135160240598444632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Dear List,

It is possible to contrast the various textual examples cited in this thread by pointing to other examples from inscriptional sources? I am familiar with inscriptions wherein Buddhist kings are known to have promoted rather than rejected certain types of Brahmanical sacrifice. This is seen, for example, in P?la and Candra inscriptions of Bengal where rituals from the Atharvaveda Pari?i??as, at least in name (such as the ko?ihoma and the adbhuta??nti of the homacatu??aya), are invoked for the purposes of returning favor for gifts of land. Further, as I recall, even at st?pa sites such as at N?g?rjunako??a there are inscriptions promoting the a?vamedha sacrifice.

To my mind such inscriptional evidence raises the question of how we receive the Buddhist critiques of sacrifice. Are the textual sources, for example, derived only from a canonical framework?  Is the critique offered in ritual sources such as Tantras? I am curious as, looking to the inscriptional evidence, I wonder if the Buddhist critique of sacrifice is only rendered by Buddhist monks who are themselves in competition with Brahminical ritualists and thus, wishing to discredit their ritual rivals in the hopes of gaining royal favor? 

It would be helpful to understand what is behind the question about Buddhist or Jain rejection of sacrifice. Admittedly, my knowledge of Buddhist canonical literature is not, what it should be! I would appreciate any comments with respect to clarification or otherwise. This is certainly an interesting topic! I am in fact working on two related projects and am happy to receive further references on this general topic. 

Best Wishes,

Benjamin
-- 

Benjamin Fleming Visiting Scholar, 
Dept. of Religious Studies, 
University of Pennsylvania 249 S. 36th Street, 
Claudia Cohen Hall, #234 
Philadelphia, PA 19104 U.S.A. 
Telephone - 215-746-7792
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~bfleming 



> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:41:56 +0900
> From: yanom at CC.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP
> Subject: Re: critiques of sacrifice
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> 
> One of the interesting sources is the Buddhist
> text ZaarduulakarNaavadaana (ed. by 
> Mukhopadhyaya, Santiniketan 1954, page 19),
> where Brahmanical sacrifice is critisized as
> being performed by those who want to eat the
> meat of sacrificail animals.
> 
> lines 15-18:
> na prokSaNair na mantraiz ca svargaM gacchanty ajaiDakaaH/
> na hy eSa maargaH svargaaya mithyaaprokSaNam ucyate//
> braahmaNai raudracittais tu paryaayo hy eSa cintitaH/
> maaMsaM khaaditukaamais tu prokSaNaM kalpitaM pazoH//
> 
> Michio Yano
> Kyoto Sangyo University
> 
> >Dear List--
> >Can anyone recommend primary or secondary literature on critiques of Vedic
> >sacrifice and orthopraxy? I am interested in Buddhist & Jain critiques as
> >well as those from within the Brahmanic fold.
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Finnian Moore Gerety
> >
> >doctoral student, Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University


 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
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From rpg at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU  Tue Apr 20 03:43:26 2010
From: rpg at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert Goldman)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 10 09:13:26 +0530
Subject: critiques of sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <20100420094155.9EE4016@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <161227089331.23782.7164883631668138240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

An amusing and pointed Buddhist critique of sacrifice, specifically the pit?yaj?a, may be found in the Pali Matakabha??a J?taka where the Bodhisatva himself is the intended sacrificial victim.


On Apr 20, 2010, at 6:11 AM, Michio Yano wrote:

> One of the interesting sources is the Buddhist
> text ZaarduulakarNaavadaana (ed. by 
> Mukhopadhyaya, Santiniketan 1954, page 19),
> where Brahmanical sacrifice is critisized as
> being performed by those who want to eat the
> meat of sacrificail animals.
> 
> lines 15-18:
> na prokSaNair na mantraiz ca svargaM gacchanty ajaiDakaaH/
> na hy eSa maargaH svargaaya mithyaaprokSaNam ucyate//
> braahmaNai raudracittais tu paryaayo hy eSa cintitaH/
> maaMsaM khaaditukaamais tu prokSaNaM kalpitaM pazoH//
> 
> Michio Yano
> Kyoto Sangyo University
> 
>> Dear List--
>> Can anyone recommend primary or secondary literature on critiques of Vedic
>> sacrifice and orthopraxy? I am interested in Buddhist & Jain critiques as
>> well as those from within the Brahmanic fold.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Finnian Moore Gerety
>> 
>> doctoral student, Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University

Dr. R. P.  Goldman
Professor of Sanskrit
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
MC # 2540
The University of California at Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720-2540
Tel: 510-642-4089
Fax: 510-642-2409




From yanom at CC.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP  Tue Apr 20 00:41:56 2010
From: yanom at CC.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP (Michio Yano)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 10 09:41:56 +0900
Subject: critiques of sacrifice
Message-ID: <161227089329.23782.13323094650006554252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

One of the interesting sources is the Buddhist
text ZaarduulakarNaavadaana (ed. by 
Mukhopadhyaya, Santiniketan 1954, page 19),
where Brahmanical sacrifice is critisized as
being performed by those who want to eat the
meat of sacrificail animals.

lines 15-18:
na prokSaNair na mantraiz ca svargaM gacchanty ajaiDakaaH/
na hy eSa maargaH svargaaya mithyaaprokSaNam ucyate//
braahmaNai raudracittais tu paryaayo hy eSa cintitaH/
maaMsaM khaaditukaamais tu prokSaNaM kalpitaM pazoH//

Michio Yano
Kyoto Sangyo University

>Dear List--
>Can anyone recommend primary or secondary literature on critiques of Vedic
>sacrifice and orthopraxy? I am interested in Buddhist & Jain critiques as
>well as those from within the Brahmanic fold.
>
>Thanks
>
>Finnian Moore Gerety
>
>doctoral student, Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University




From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Tue Apr 20 08:32:18 2010
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 10 10:32:18 +0200
Subject: Murty Classical Library of India
Message-ID: <161227089338.23782.16535483284562421184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Here are some of the press releases:

http://harvardpress.typepad.com/hup_publicity/2010/04/murty-family-donates-52-million-to-.html
http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/creatingclassical-indian-canon/392452/

DW




From filipsky at RZONE.CZ  Tue Apr 20 09:05:47 2010
From: filipsky at RZONE.CZ (=?utf-8?Q?Jan_Filipsk=C3=BD?=)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 10 11:05:47 +0200
Subject: Crow lore & Luciano Petech
Message-ID: <161227089340.23782.14619098629912699375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

I am very grateful to all and sundry who have sent me illuminating pieces of
information (and off list even materials) on crows in Indian (and Tibetan)
cultures.

 

A bit unrelated to the above topic is a wish of my friend, who is not a
member of the list, to get in touch with the eminent Italian (and world)
Tibetologist Luciano Petech (b. 1914). Could anybody inform me/us about him?

 

With best regards

Jan Filipsky




From veltsch at OEAW.AC.AT  Tue Apr 20 13:06:10 2010
From: veltsch at OEAW.AC.AT (Vincent Eltschinger)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 10 15:06:10 +0200
Subject: critiques of sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <BLU128-W176AB71719D7C4A75BDDC8A40A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <161227089342.23782.11538954583570614617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Benjamin,
Of course, the question of the ethical, social and political consequences,
for a king, of being a Buddhist, is a very interesting one (and it is more
than certain that many among the monastic intellectual elite had very
definite views on the topic). But in my opinion, one is a king before
being a Buddhist. I mean: there are normative, almost sacred, even
formulaic prerogatives and duties for a king in the ancient Indian
context. Look, for instance, at those kings who, in the very same
inscription, present themselves as paramasaugata, i.e., as supreme
(devout) Buddhists, AND praise themselves for preserving the
var.naa'sramadharma. Here too, the contradiction between core Buddhist
values (or: what we take them to be) and the king's self-assertion seems
to be total. What we also ought to consider is: has there been anything
like a Buddhist society, or a properly Buddhist kingdom, in ancient India?
Look, for instance, at Naalandaa and its surrounding: Naalandaa was the
flagship of Indian Buddhism, a place where people converged from all parts
of Asia and which was richly endowed by successive generations of kings of
different dynasties (local Guptas, Vardhana, Paala). Now, the seals that
have been excavated in Naalandaa seem to demonstrate that the whole
administrative, political, juridical and social environment of the
monastic complex wasn't Buddhist at all.
Well, instead of writing too much on this complex and fascinating issue, I
would recommend you to read at least the beginning and the end of Alexis
Sanderson's recently published "The 'Saiva Age" (pp. 41-349 [sic] in
Shingo Einoo, ed.: Genesis and Development of Tantrism, Tokyo, University
of Tokyo, Institute of Oriental Culture, 2009). Here you will find some
answers and at least many insights.
Best,
Vincent Eltschinger

Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Prinz-Eugen-Strasse 8-10
A-1040 Vienna

>
> Dear List,
>
> It is possible to contrast the various textual examples cited in this
> thread by pointing to other examples from inscriptional sources? I am
> familiar with inscriptions wherein Buddhist kings are known to have
> promoted rather than rejected certain types of Brahmanical sacrifice. This
> is seen, for example, in P??la and Candra inscriptions of Bengal where
> rituals from the Atharvaveda Pari??i??????as, at least in name (such as
> the ko???ihoma and the adbhuta????nti of the homacatu??????aya), are
> invoked for the purposes of returning favor for gifts of land. Further, as
> I recall, even at st??pa sites such as at N??g??rjunako??????a there are
> inscriptions promoting the a??vamedha sacrifice.
>
> To my mind such inscriptional evidence raises the question of how we
> receive the Buddhist critiques of sacrifice. Are the textual sources, for
> example, derived only from a canonical framework?  Is the critique offered
> in ritual sources such as Tantras? I am curious as, looking to the
> inscriptional evidence, I wonder if the Buddhist critique of sacrifice is
> only rendered by Buddhist monks who are themselves in competition with
> Brahminical ritualists and thus, wishing to discredit their ritual rivals
> in the hopes of gaining royal favor?
>
> It would be helpful to understand what is behind the question about
> Buddhist or Jain rejection of sacrifice. Admittedly, my knowledge of
> Buddhist canonical literature is not, what it should be! I would
> appreciate any comments with respect to clarification or otherwise. This
> is certainly an interesting topic! I am in fact working on two related
> projects and am happy to receive further references on this general topic.
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> Benjamin
> --
>
> Benjamin Fleming Visiting Scholar,
> Dept. of Religious Studies,
> University of Pennsylvania 249 S. 36th Street,
> Claudia Cohen Hall, #234
> Philadelphia, PA 19104 U.S.A.
> Telephone - 215-746-7792
> http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~bfleming
>
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:41:56 +0900
>> From: yanom at CC.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP
>> Subject: Re: critiques of sacrifice
>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>>
>> One of the interesting sources is the Buddhist
>> text ZaarduulakarNaavadaana (ed. by
>> Mukhopadhyaya, Santiniketan 1954, page 19),
>> where Brahmanical sacrifice is critisized as
>> being performed by those who want to eat the
>> meat of sacrificail animals.
>>
>> lines 15-18:
>> na prokSaNair na mantraiz ca svargaM gacchanty ajaiDakaaH/
>> na hy eSa maargaH svargaaya mithyaaprokSaNam ucyate//
>> braahmaNai raudracittais tu paryaayo hy eSa cintitaH/
>> maaMsaM khaaditukaamais tu prokSaNaM kalpitaM pazoH//
>>
>> Michio Yano
>> Kyoto Sangyo University
>>
>> >Dear List--
>> >Can anyone recommend primary or secondary literature on critiques of
>> Vedic
>> >sacrifice and orthopraxy? I am interested in Buddhist & Jain critiques
>> as
>> >well as those from within the Brahmanic fold.
>> >
>> >Thanks
>> >
>> >Finnian Moore Gerety
>> >
>> >doctoral student, Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard
>> University
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your
> inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1




From fmgerety at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Apr 20 19:11:57 2010
From: fmgerety at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Finnian Moore Gerety)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 10 15:11:57 -0400
Subject: critiques of sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <0dac75ad08fd4a6cc68162057ee7f033.squirrel@srvc1.oeaw.ac.at>
Message-ID: <161227089345.23782.8744869726316021836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My warmest thanks to all have contributed their thoughts and recommendations
so far. I'm looking forward to following these leads.

Yours,
Finnian

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 9:06 AM, Vincent Eltschinger <veltsch at oeaw.ac.at>wrote:

> Dear Benjamin,
> Of course, the question of the ethical, social and political consequences,
> for a king, of being a Buddhist, is a very interesting one (and it is more
> than certain that many among the monastic intellectual elite had very
> definite views on the topic). But in my opinion, one is a king before
> being a Buddhist. I mean: there are normative, almost sacred, even
> formulaic prerogatives and duties for a king in the ancient Indian
> context. Look, for instance, at those kings who, in the very same
> inscription, present themselves as paramasaugata, i.e., as supreme
> (devout) Buddhists, AND praise themselves for preserving the
> var.naa'sramadharma. Here too, the contradiction between core Buddhist
> values (or: what we take them to be) and the king's self-assertion seems
> to be total. What we also ought to consider is: has there been anything
> like a Buddhist society, or a properly Buddhist kingdom, in ancient India?
> Look, for instance, at Naalandaa and its surrounding: Naalandaa was the
> flagship of Indian Buddhism, a place where people converged from all parts
> of Asia and which was richly endowed by successive generations of kings of
> different dynasties (local Guptas, Vardhana, Paala). Now, the seals that
> have been excavated in Naalandaa seem to demonstrate that the whole
> administrative, political, juridical and social environment of the
> monastic complex wasn't Buddhist at all.
> Well, instead of writing too much on this complex and fascinating issue, I
> would recommend you to read at least the beginning and the end of Alexis
> Sanderson's recently published "The 'Saiva Age" (pp. 41-349 [sic] in
> Shingo Einoo, ed.: Genesis and Development of Tantrism, Tokyo, University
> of Tokyo, Institute of Oriental Culture, 2009). Here you will find some
> answers and at least many insights.
> Best,
> Vincent Eltschinger
>
> Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
> Austrian Academy of Sciences
> Prinz-Eugen-Strasse 8-10
> A-1040 Vienna
>
> >
> > Dear List,
> >
> > It is possible to contrast the various textual examples cited in this
> > thread by pointing to other examples from inscriptional sources? I am
> > familiar with inscriptions wherein Buddhist kings are known to have
> > promoted rather than rejected certain types of Brahmanical sacrifice.
> This
> > is seen, for example, in P?la and Candra inscriptions of Bengal where
> > rituals from the Atharvaveda Pari?i??as, at least in name (such as
> > the ko?ihoma and the adbhuta??nti of the homacatu??aya), are
> > invoked for the purposes of returning favor for gifts of land. Further,
> as
> > I recall, even at st?pa sites such as at N?g?rjunako??a there are
> > inscriptions promoting the a?vamedha sacrifice.
> >
> > To my mind such inscriptional evidence raises the question of how we
> > receive the Buddhist critiques of sacrifice. Are the textual sources, for
> > example, derived only from a canonical framework?  Is the critique
> offered
> > in ritual sources such as Tantras? I am curious as, looking to the
> > inscriptional evidence, I wonder if the Buddhist critique of sacrifice is
> > only rendered by Buddhist monks who are themselves in competition with
> > Brahminical ritualists and thus, wishing to discredit their ritual rivals
> > in the hopes of gaining royal favor?
> >
> > It would be helpful to understand what is behind the question about
> > Buddhist or Jain rejection of sacrifice. Admittedly, my knowledge of
> > Buddhist canonical literature is not, what it should be! I would
> > appreciate any comments with respect to clarification or otherwise. This
> > is certainly an interesting topic! I am in fact working on two related
> > projects and am happy to receive further references on this general
> topic.
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> >
> > Benjamin
> > --
> >
> > Benjamin Fleming Visiting Scholar,
> > Dept. of Religious Studies,
> > University of Pennsylvania 249 S. 36th Street,
> > Claudia Cohen Hall, #234
> > Philadelphia, PA 19104 U.S.A.
> > Telephone - 215-746-7792
> > http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~bfleming<http://www.sas.upenn.edu/%7Ebfleming>
> >
> >
> >
> >> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:41:56 +0900
> >> From: yanom at CC.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP
> >> Subject: Re: critiques of sacrifice
> >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> >>
> >> One of the interesting sources is the Buddhist
> >> text ZaarduulakarNaavadaana (ed. by
> >> Mukhopadhyaya, Santiniketan 1954, page 19),
> >> where Brahmanical sacrifice is critisized as
> >> being performed by those who want to eat the
> >> meat of sacrificail animals.
> >>
> >> lines 15-18:
> >> na prokSaNair na mantraiz ca svargaM gacchanty ajaiDakaaH/
> >> na hy eSa maargaH svargaaya mithyaaprokSaNam ucyate//
> >> braahmaNai raudracittais tu paryaayo hy eSa cintitaH/
> >> maaMsaM khaaditukaamais tu prokSaNaM kalpitaM pazoH//
> >>
> >> Michio Yano
> >> Kyoto Sangyo University
> >>
> >> >Dear List--
> >> >Can anyone recommend primary or secondary literature on critiques of
> >> Vedic
> >> >sacrifice and orthopraxy? I am interested in Buddhist & Jain critiques
> >> as
> >> >well as those from within the Brahmanic fold.
> >> >
> >> >Thanks
> >> >
> >> >Finnian Moore Gerety
> >> >
> >> >doctoral student, Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard
> >> University
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your
> > inbox.
> >
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1
>
>




From hopeforageneration at GMAIL.COM  Tue Apr 20 06:27:38 2010
From: hopeforageneration at GMAIL.COM (patrick mccartney)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 10 15:57:38 +0930
Subject: critiques of sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <BLU128-W176AB71719D7C4A75BDDC8A40A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <161227089336.23782.2418249247604171014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

I am trying to find any articles related to alternate versions of the
R?m?ya?a that presents R?va?a NOT as the evil demon.

Thanks,

Patrick McCartney




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Apr 20 21:02:23 2010
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 10 17:02:23 -0400
Subject: critiques of sacrifice
Message-ID: <161227089348.23782.5127256357789807206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It is not Buddhist or Jain, but there is a Carvaka critique of Vedic sacrifice in the first chapter of the Sarvadarsanasangraha, the English trans. of which is online at < http://www.archive.org/details/thesarvadarsanas00madhuoft >.  

Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Team Coordinator
South Asia Team, Asian Division
Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.




From palaniappa at AOL.COM  Wed Apr 21 06:06:24 2010
From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 10 01:06:24 -0500
Subject: A note on Poets in the Akananuru
In-Reply-To: <BF6FE478-81D9-4EC8-9E4D-0EC59A484697@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089350.23782.5650782428780697671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear George,

With respect to dating, as I mentioned in my first response to your post, the ant?di type versification must have present in the folk culture and Cilappatik?ram's ku??akkuravai 12-14 shows the origins of the genre. In the folk culture, it could have been a performance where two or more persons could have participated in ant?di versification. In that case, each of them could be an individual verse by a different individual. (So ten verses of that kind cannot be considered as of the same type as epic poetry.) Similarly, the decad type verses could have been part of the folk culture too. Although Tiruv?cakam is a significantly later work, the different types of folk theme verses in decad form in Tiruv?cakam (as in Ai?ku?un??u) suggest that both are patterned after folk practices. (What is so significant about the number ten? One can possibly speculate that when youngsters play the versification game, if they are keeping track of number of verses, having 5 or 10 (the fingers on one or both hands) as the basis might be easy to do. Even today, when we try to keep tally, often we do it in 5s or 10s.)  Thus the features of ant?di and decads could have existed in the folk culture long before they entered formal literature. Pati??uppattu and Ai?ku?un??u may show the beginning of their induction into formal poetry while the Bhakti poetry shows their full development. But there is nothing to indicate such induction could not have been coeval with other Classical Tamil poems. So, in that case, one does not have to consider Ai?ku?un??u to be a late text and so the same author could have produced a poem in Akan????u as well as Ai?ku?un??u. Again, if one considers the variety found in the works of M??ikkav?cakar, that is not outlandish. In modern times, if one considers the Tamil film lyricist Kannadasan's songs, one will find that:

in 1968 he wrote the following song in Chennai style.
elantai payam elantaip payam
cekkac cevanta payam - itu
t?????am i?ikkum payam
ell?rum v??kum payam - itu
?yaikkinu po?anta payam
...
Here payam < pa?am, ?yai < ??ai, po?anta < pi?anta

In 1970, he wrote the following song in literary Tamil.
karaiy??i m?? vi?aiy??um k?viri n??u - e?ka?
u?aiy?ri? k?vala?? n? v??iya n??u
ko?iy??ip puli vi?aiy??a, ku????ip puka? vi?aiy??a
ma?iy??i ma?alaiyar ??um ma??ava? v??ka - po??ai
varaiy?tu v?ri va?a?kum te??ava? v??ka

So, I am somewhat skeptical of attempts to date the poems on the basis of an assumed linear-sequential development of forms over time. Multiple forms could have existed contemporaneously.

In any case, the following post of mine in another list may be of interest to you regarding problems in how some non-Tamil scholars date Tamil literary developments. (At the bottom of the post, you can access other posts on the same topic.) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Indo-Eurasian_research/message/8907

Regards,
Palaniappan


On Apr 16, 2010, at 4:09 PM, George Hart wrote:

> I am working through the Akananuru now, constantly struck by the ingenuity of the poets.  The words of M?gha certainly fit:
> 
> k?a?e k?a?e yan navat?m upaiti tad eva r?pam rama??yat?y??
> 
> That which becomes new every moment is the very form of beauty.
> 
> The poems rehearse the same situations and often the same imagery over and over, yet each one seems to have something new and extraordinary that makes it different from the others.  In any event, I remember speaking with Rajam once about the Akananuru and she remarked how different the poems of Para?ar and Kapilar are.  After working through many poems, I am struck by how unerring her insight is (and I am indebted to her for pointing this out).  We constantly wonder about the authorship of these poems -- are the attributions simply made up, or are they real?  In some poems, it is clear that the anthologist has taken liberties -- I doubt that anyone really believes the poems attributed to P?ri Maka?ir are by P?ri's daughters.  But, after seeing how the techniques of P?ri and Kapilar are so different and how the poems of each have similar styles, I am beginning to wonder whether in fact the attributed authorship of the Sangam poems is not in fact accurate.  Is there any evidence, for example, that Kapilar did NOT write the century of poems in the Ainkurunuru attributed to him (Martha Selby has said she believes the Ainkurunuru to be late)?  Or that the Sangam poets who are supposed to have written the Pattupp???u may not have been the same as in "earlier" works.  Note that in Tamil love poetry and Poetics, Takahashi believes that some of the anthologies are late and thus that the authorial attributions are incorrect.  I'd be interested in what people think about this.  George=




From christellebarois at WANADOO.FR  Wed Apr 21 18:33:48 2010
From: christellebarois at WANADOO.FR (=?utf-8?Q?Christ=C3=A8le_Barois?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 10 20:33:48 +0200
Subject: Source
In-Reply-To: <6350F599-1D09-4E5A-A960-5B32698B656A@ephe.sorbonne.fr>
Message-ID: <161227089352.23782.2848253454092009514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ch?re Lyne Bansat-Boudon,

Je ne sais pas si cela peut vous ?tre d'une grande aide mais (avec une 
recherche rapide sur google), je trouve,
Dans : vijJAnabhairava with  commentary by kSemaraja and  zivopAdhyAya
(texte mis en ligne par le Muktabodha - Mark S. G. Dyczkowski)


ekako'hamiti saMsRtau jana -
strAsasAhasarasena khidyate |
ekako'hamiti ko'paro'sti me
itthamasmi gatabhIrvyavasthitaH ||

ityAdinA pratigranthaM bhagavAn ahaM - rUpa eva parAmRSTaH |
zrIhrasvanAthena harSadattasUnunApi



Cordialement, Christ?le Barois




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lyne BANSAT-BOUDON" <lyne.bansat-boudon at EPHE.SORBONNE.FR>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 10:56 PM
Subject: Source



Dear Indologists,

Could any one let me know the source of this verse,  found in
Yogaraaja's commentary ad Abhinavagupta's Paramaarthasaara, v.  58?

ekako'ham iti sams.rtau janas traasasaahasarasena khidyate
ekako'ham iti ko'paro'sti me ittham asmi gatabhiir vyavasthita.h

Yograraaja attributes it to the granthakaara, that is, to Abhinavagupta.


Thanks,


Lyne Bansat-Boudon
Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, Paris




From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM  Thu Apr 22 17:53:08 2010
From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 10 23:23:08 +0530
Subject: critiques of sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <u2ub4dadfb91004191239x2c43ca3et99d9fb2662d8c2d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227089354.23782.6772488451594863704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello,
One of the leaders of Kerala renaissance of the 19th century Sri  
Chattambi Swamikal has vehemently criticised the Vedic sacrifices in  
his book named VedaadhikaaraniruupaNam. I have collected his complete  
works and published. I have also written a book named Marxism and  
Yagasamskaram. All these are in Malayalam.
Regards
K.Maheswaran Nair Ph.D.
Centre for Vedanta Studies
University of Kerala
India

  Myself hof
Quoting Finnian Moore Gerety <fmgerety at FAS.HARVARD.EDU>:

> Dear List--
> Can anyone recommend primary or secondary literature on critiques of Vedic
> sacrifice and orthopraxy? I am interested in Buddhist & Jain critiques as
> well as those from within the Brahmanic fold.
>
> Thanks
>
> Finnian Moore Gerety
>
> doctoral student, Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
>




From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM  Thu Apr 22 18:07:22 2010
From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 10 23:37:22 +0530
Subject: Dialectic
In-Reply-To: <BLU108-W18DF43259D03DC18BF73B7A00D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <161227089357.23782.5144579113483700542.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello,
The Sanskrit words we use in Malayalam for dialectics are dvandvavaada  
and vairudhyavaada.
K.Maheswaran Nair Ph.D.
University of Kerala
India

Quoting Harsha Dehejia <harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM>:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> Thank you Prof. Biernacki for suggesting the Sanskrit word   
> anekantavaada for pluralistic thinking.
>
>
>
> Is there a word for dialectic thinking in Indian logic?
>
>
>
> Regards.
>
>
>
> Harsha
>
> Harsha Dehejia
>
> Professor of Indian Studies, Carleton Univeristy
>
> Ottawa, ON.
>




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Apr 23 18:32:21 2010
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 10 14:32:21 -0400
Subject: question
In-Reply-To: <C58C2E20-93CC-4486-9474-834F5805CC59@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <161227089363.23782.2192704419444221726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

LOC has it and I have paged the vol. and will scan the page if no one
has already gotten it to you.

Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Team Coordinator
South Asia Team, Asian Division
Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library
of Congress.

>>> petra kieffer-P?lz <kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE> 4/23/2010 10:39 AM >>>
Dear All,

does anybody own the book

Lakshman S. Perera, Sirima Kiribamune, Piyatissa Senanayaka.
The Institutions of Ancient Ceylon from Inscriptions: From 831-1016  
AD, Vol. 2, pt. 2:  Economic and religious instiutions, 2005.

I need a scan of p. 164.

The only copy of this volume is in the Stabi, and is not available  
till November.

I would be very thankful,
Petra Kieffer-P?lz

**************
Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz
Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2
99423 Weimar
Germany
Tel. 03643/770447
kiepue at t-online.de




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Apr 23 18:52:16 2010
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 10 14:52:16 -0400
Subject: question
In-Reply-To: <2FBC42B2-9733-48E8-97D2-D6CFEC0885FD@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <161227089367.23782.17347033258499581424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I will do the other pages too.

>>> petra kieffer-P?lz <kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE> 4/23/2010 2:44 PM >>>
Dear Allen,

it would be great to receive a scan of this page, and - if it is not  
to greedy - also of pp. 195-199, since I realized via Google book  
that there are some relevant details on mula on these pages.

With many thanks in advance,
best,
Petra



kiepue at t-online.de




From kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE  Fri Apr 23 14:39:31 2010
From: kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE (=?utf-8?Q?petra_kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 10 16:39:31 +0200
Subject: question
Message-ID: <161227089359.23782.14218443330276566926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear All,

does anybody own the book

Lakshman S. Perera, Sirima Kiribamune, Piyatissa Senanayaka.
The Institutions of Ancient Ceylon from Inscriptions: From 831-1016  
AD, Vol. 2, pt. 2:  Economic and religious instiutions, 2005.

I need a scan of p. 164.

The only copy of this volume is in the Stabi, and is not available  
till November.

I would be very thankful,
Petra Kieffer-P?lz

**************
Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz
Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2
99423 Weimar
Germany
Tel. 03643/770447
kiepue at t-online.de




From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE  Fri Apr 23 15:52:16 2010
From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 10 17:52:16 +0200
Subject: GRETIL update #370
Message-ID: <161227089361.23782.13061470021657517500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its
collection:

 

Ahoratravratacaityasevanusamsa-Avadana
<http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#AhovcsAv> 


Ahoratravratakatha
<http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#Ahovk1> 


Ahoratravratakatha, prose version
<http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#Ahovk2> 


Devibhagavata-Purana: Devigita
<http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#DeviBh_Dg> 


Mahapratisaravidya-Dharani
<http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#MPratisaraDh> 


Mitramisra: Viramitrodaya: Samayaprakasa
<http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#MViramitrSam> 


Sabhikasaugatasasanapravrajyavratacaranaparivarta
<http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#SabhikaVp> 


Satasahasrika Prajnaparamita, II.2
<http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#SatsPP_II_1> 

 

__________________________________________________________________________ 

"GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites
for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission
statement") 

GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: 

http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm




From kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE  Fri Apr 23 18:44:40 2010
From: kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE (=?utf-8?Q?petra_kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 10 20:44:40 +0200
Subject: question
In-Reply-To: <4BD1AF750200003A0007EB86@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <161227089365.23782.9616236213718101771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Allen,

it would be great to receive a scan of this page, and - if it is not  
to greedy - also of pp. 195-199, since I realized via Google book  
that there are some relevant details on mula on these pages.

With many thanks in advance,
best,
Petra




Am 23.04.2010 um 20:32 schrieb Allen W Thrasher:

> LOC has it and I have paged the vol. and will scan the page if no one
> has already gotten it to you.
>
> Allen
>
> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
> Senior Reference Librarian
> Team Coordinator
> South Asia Team, Asian Division
> Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150
> 101 Independence Ave., S.E.
> Washington, DC 20540-4810
> tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov
> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library
> of Congress.
>
>>>> petra kieffer-P?lz <kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE> 4/23/2010 10:39 AM >>>
> Dear All,
>
> does anybody own the book
>
> Lakshman S. Perera, Sirima Kiribamune, Piyatissa Senanayaka.
> The Institutions of Ancient Ceylon from Inscriptions: From 831-1016
> AD, Vol. 2, pt. 2:  Economic and religious instiutions, 2005.
>
> I need a scan of p. 164.
>
> The only copy of this volume is in the Stabi, and is not available
> till November.
>
> I would be very thankful,
> Petra Kieffer-P?lz
>
> **************
> Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz
> Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2
> 99423 Weimar
> Germany
> Tel. 03643/770447
> kiepue at t-online.de

**************
Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz
Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2
99423 Weimar
Germany
Tel. 03643/770447
kiepue at t-online.de




From fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU  Sun Apr 25 15:35:07 2010
From: fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU (FRITS STAAL)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 10 08:35:07 -0700
Subject: stirrup in Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <43160.11356.qm@web27307.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227089375.23782.12796589254515379294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi Axel c.s.,

Please look at M. Sparreboom, Chariots in the Veda, Leiden: Brill, 1985,
especially pp. 89-90 and the indices. You will find a lot of references
and discussion, and other publications quoted or mentioned.

good luck and don't fall off your horse without or even with them,

Frits

> Does anybody know the Sanskrit or any Prakrit term for "stirrup" (the
> thing for climbing horses)? In Hindi, I was told, it is rakaab.
> Axel Michaels
>


Frits Staal

http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal




From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE  Sun Apr 25 13:43:26 2010
From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 10 13:43:26 +0000
Subject: stirrup in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227089370.23782.5349783639699039119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anybody know the Sanskrit or any Prakrit term for "stirrup" (the thing for climbing horses)? In Hindi, I was told, it is rakaab.
Axel Michaels




From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Sun Apr 25 14:04:13 2010
From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 10 16:04:13 +0200
Subject: stirrup in Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <43160.11356.qm@web27307.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227089373.23782.5809975440821514493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

possibly
paagaDa or paadhaDha, cf. CDIAL 7766;
the rope leading to the stirrups could be
paaraayaNa, if Kangle is correct ad Arthasastra 2.32,12.
hf



> Does anybody know the Sanskrit or any Prakrit term for "stirrup" (the
> thing for climbing horses)? In Hindi, I was told, it is rakaab.
> Axel Michaels
>




From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE  Mon Apr 26 07:09:12 2010
From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 10 07:09:12 +0000
Subject: AW: stirrup in Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <2cdfbf89f0aaa1d4b97d47e41548a202.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089378.23782.18136946208403910594.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks a lot, Frits, but I personally don't use the horse for riding, only the bike.
 Axel





________________________________
Von: FRITS STAAL <fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU>
An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Gesendet: Sonntag, den 25. April 2010, 17:35:07 Uhr
Betreff: Re: stirrup in Sanskrit

Hi Axel c.s.,

Please look at M. Sparreboom, Chariots in the Veda, Leiden: Brill, 1985,
especially pp. 89-90 and the indices. You will find a lot of references
and discussion, and other publications quoted or mentioned.

good luck and don't fall off your horse without or even with them,

Frits

> Does anybody know the Sanskrit or any Prakrit term for "stirrup" (the
> thing for climbing horses)? In Hindi, I was told, it is rakaab.
> Axel Michaels
>


Frits Staal

http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal





From lubint at WLU.EDU  Tue Apr 27 09:14:54 2010
From: lubint at WLU.EDU (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 10 05:14:54 -0400
Subject: critiques of sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <20100420T170223Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov>
Message-ID: <161227089383.23782.15691954394748585909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Weighing in late on this thread (because I am on the road):  I wrote a paper on this long ago (not published), looking at various suttas in the Suttanipaata on this subject (Kasibhaaradvaajasutta, etc.).  Some of this same material is discussed in:

Oliver Freiberger, ?The Ideal Sacrifice:  Patterns of Reinterpreting Brahmin Sacrifice in Early Buddhism.?  Bulletin d'?tudes Indiennes 16 (1998). 

Tim Lubin
WLU / IFP
Fulbright-Hays fellow, 2009-2010




From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM  Tue Apr 27 08:26:30 2010
From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 10 10:26:30 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit added to the Google AJAX transliteration API
Message-ID: <161227089380.23782.4409022633429130561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

http://googleajaxsearchapi.blogspot.com/2010/04/transliteration-api-adds-6-more.html

Transliteration API adds 6 more
languages<http://googleajaxsearchapi.blogspot.com/2010/04/transliteration-api-adds-6-more.html>
April
25, 2010We're excited to announce the addition of 6 new languages (Greek,
Russian, Serbian, Sanskrit, Amharic, Tigrinya) to the Transliteration
API<http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#Transliteration>.
Using Google Transliteration you can convert Roman characters to their
phonetic equivalent in your language. Note that this is not the same as
translation ? it's the sound of the words that are converted from one
alphabet to the other.Transliteration
API<http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#Transliteration>allows
this functionality to be available to all websites, which will make
it easier for you to add transliteration capabilities to textfields on your
webpages. Using this customizable API, you can enable users of your website
to type 19 languages<http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#TransliterationSupportedLanguages>.
For more information, please take a look at the
documentation<http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#Transliteration>
and
samples at our code
playground<http://code.google.com/apis/ajax/playground/#transliterate_hindi>.
If you're looking for a finer level of control on your web pages, also check
out the low-level
interface<http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#LowLevelTransliteration>to
transliteration, and the font
rendering support
APIs<http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#FontRendering>
.

Google Transliteration is integrated into several Google
properties<http://www.google.com/transliterate/about.html?v=1#products>and
we have
bookmarklets <http://code.google.com/p/t13n/> in addition to API to extend
this capability to other websites. Please try these out and let us
know<http://groups.google.com/group/google-india-labs>what you think
and how you're using it.

Posted by: Kuntal Loya and Ajay Somani, Software Engineers




From meulnbld at XS4ALL.NL  Tue Apr 27 09:10:02 2010
From: meulnbld at XS4ALL.NL (G.J. Meulenbeld)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 10 11:10:02 +0200
Subject: stirrup in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227089386.23782.17090002433985820561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Axel,

See also on the stirrup (paadaadhaara) in India:
Simon Digby (1971) -- War-horse and elephant in the Delhi Sultanate: a study 
of military supplies, Orient Monographs, Oxford;
P.K. Gode (1948) -- The history of the stirrup in Indian and foreign 
horsemanship -- between B.C. 852 and 1948, B.I.S. Mandal Quarterly, 1--14, 
also in  P.K.Gode's Studies in Indian Cultural History II, 71--81.

with best wishes,

Jan Meulenbeld


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Axel Michaels" <axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 9:09 AM
Subject: AW: stirrup in Sanskrit


> Thanks a lot, Frits, but I personally don't use the horse for riding, only 
> the bike.
> Axel
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Von: FRITS STAAL <fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU>
> An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Gesendet: Sonntag, den 25. April 2010, 17:35:07 Uhr
> Betreff: Re: stirrup in Sanskrit
>
> Hi Axel c.s.,
>
> Please look at M. Sparreboom, Chariots in the Veda, Leiden: Brill, 1985,
> especially pp. 89-90 and the indices. You will find a lot of references
> and discussion, and other publications quoted or mentioned.
>
> good luck and don't fall off your horse without or even with them,
>
> Frits
>
>> Does anybody know the Sanskrit or any Prakrit term for "stirrup" (the
>> thing for climbing horses)? In Hindi, I was told, it is rakaab.
>> Axel Michaels
>>
>
>
> Frits Staal
>
> http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal
>
> 




From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK  Tue Apr 27 17:05:52 2010
From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 10 18:05:52 +0100
Subject: two upcoming events at Cambridge
Message-ID: <161227089388.23782.15986660729138624234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,

I am passing the announcement for these two upcoming events on to you
on behalf of Dr. Vincenzo Vergiani (Cambridge).

Best,
Whitney

Tuesday, 11 May 2010
10:00 - 16:00
Location: CRASSH, 17 Mill Lane, Cambridge

Sanskrit Life-Worlds: Antiquity to Early Modernity A colloquium with
Professor Sheldon Pollock (William B Ransford Professor of Sanskrit
and Indian Studies, University of Columbia, US)

10.00-10.30
Registration and coffee

10.45-13.00 Roundtable Discussion: The Work of Philology and its Future

Professor Sheldon Pollock  (Columbia University, US)
Professor Alexis Sanderson (University of Oxford)
Dr Vincenzo Vergiani (FAMES, University of Cambridge)
Dr Whitney Cox (SOAS)

Chair: Dr Eivind Kahrs (FAMES, University of Cambridge)

14.00-16.00 Roundtable Discussion: Social Life of Sanskrit and Early Modernity

Professor Rosalind O'Hanlon (University of Oxford)
Dr David Washbrook (University of Cambridge)
Dr Norbert Peabody (University of Cambridge) Dr Aparna Kapadia
(University of Oxford)
Chair: Dr Faisal Devji (University of Oxford)

16.00-16.30 Tea  Break
16.30-17.00 Question and Answer Session with Professor Sheldon Pollock
(William B. Ransford Professor of Sanskrit and Indian Studies,
Columbia University, US)

For further information and registration, go to:
http://www.crassh.cam.ac.uk/events/1287/


Ideas of India in Britain 1857-1947
Friday, 14th and Saturday, 15th May, 2010
CRASSH, 17 Mill Lane, Cambridge

A workshop aiming to provide an interdisciplinary forum for the
discussion of ideas of India in Britain between 1857 and 1947.



-- 


Dr. Whitney Cox
Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia,
School of Oriental and African Studies
Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square
London WC1H 0XG




From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Apr 28 07:34:18 2010
From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 10 02:34:18 -0500
Subject: homa and cremation
In-Reply-To: <v2xd1c0c7391004270126x9d1985b5g5558ae36eb94c717@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227089390.23782.13225716246669860598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

While Brahmanical funerary rituals in some
contexts stipulate the performance of homa
in connection with final rites, does it occur that
the cremation itself comes to be considered as
a homa? This does occur in some Tibetan rituals
that I am working on, and I wish to ascertain whether
or not this was a novel innovation, or if there was
in fact a basis for this development in earlier
Indian tradition.

with thanks for your responses,

Matthew T. Kapstein
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies
The University of Chicago Divinity School

Directeur d'?tudes
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris




From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE  Wed Apr 28 08:11:27 2010
From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 10 08:11:27 +0000
Subject: AW: homa and cremation
In-Reply-To: <20100428023418.CNG06333@m4500-02.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089392.23782.14472923412051963755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Newar funery rituals, three unfired bricks serve as the hearth in which a fire of three small bamboo sticks is lit in order to pacify the deceased. Thhis is called pretaZAntihoma or in Nevari: kulehoma. For details and photos see N. Gutschow and A. Michaels, Handling Death. The Dynamics of Death and Ancestor Rituals among the Newars of Bhaktapur, Nepal. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 2005, pp. 88-96.
Best,
Axel Michaels
------------------------------
Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels
Acting Director Excellence Cluster "Asia and Europe in a Global Context", Sprecher des SFB 619 ("Ritualdynamik")

Universit?t Heidelberg, S?dasien-Institut, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, D-69120 Heidelberg
Tel. +49-6221-548917 / Fax +49-6221-546338
http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/ -- www.ritualdynamik.uni-hd.de -- http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/index.html
Emails: sek-michaels at uni-heidelberg.de (SAI office) -- Axel.Michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (official and personal) -- michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Cluster mail)




________________________________
Von: "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" <mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU>
An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 28. April 2010, 9:34:18 Uhr
Betreff: homa and cremation

While Brahmanical funerary rituals in some
contexts stipulate the performance of homa
in connection with final rites, does it occur that
the cremation itself comes to be considered as
a homa? This does occur in some Tibetan rituals
that I am working on, and I wish to ascertain whether
or not this was a novel innovation, or if there was
in fact a basis for this development in earlier
Indian tradition.

with thanks for your responses,

Matthew T. Kapstein
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies
The University of Chicago Divinity School

Directeur d'?tudes
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris





From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK  Wed Apr 28 10:05:31 2010
From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 10 11:05:31 +0100
Subject: Cola period Tamil inscription in Sri Lanka
Message-ID: <161227089394.23782.9341304266485559201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,

On p. 9 (paragraph no. 8) of his Annual Report on Epigraphy for the
year 1909-1910 (G.O. no. 665, July '10), Krishna Sastri refers to the
then-recent discovery by "H. C. P. Bell, esq.,  Archeological
Commissioner, Ceylon" of a number of Tamil inscriptions found in ?iva
and Vi??u temples in Polannaruwa.  Krishna Sastri goes on to report
that the "only complete record of the set was a Cho?a inscription of
the 11th century A.D. and belonged to the time of Adhir?jendra".

Could anyone direct me to a published version of this record?

Thanks in advance,

Whitney

-- 


Dr. Whitney Cox
Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia,
School of Oriental and African Studies
Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square
London WC1H 0XG




From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK  Wed Apr 28 11:02:37 2010
From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 10 12:02:37 +0100
Subject: Cola period Tamil inscription in Sri Lanka
In-Reply-To: <4BD80AB7.8000109@gattamelata.com>
Message-ID: <161227089399.23782.17517316191339290885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Great! Thanks: it was no. 1388

wc

On 28 April 2010 11:15, Alexander A. Stolyarov <astol007 at gattamelata.com> wrote:
> Hi Whitney
>
> Try South Indian inscriptions Volume IV around inscription No. 1389.
>
> E. Francis
>
> Whitney Cox ?????:
>>
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> On p. 9 (paragraph no. 8) of his Annual Report on Epigraphy for the
>> year 1909-1910 (G.O. no. 665, July '10), Krishna Sastri refers to the
>> then-recent discovery by "H. C. P. Bell, esq., ?Archeological
>> Commissioner, Ceylon" of a number of Tamil inscriptions found in ?iva
>> and Vi??u temples in Polannaruwa. ?Krishna Sastri goes on to report
>> that the "only complete record of the set was a Cho?a inscription of
>> the 11th century A.D. and belonged to the time of Adhir?jendra".
>>
>> Could anyone direct me to a published version of this record?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Whitney
>>
>>
>



-- 


Dr. Whitney Cox
Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia,
School of Oriental and African Studies
Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square
London WC1H 0XG




From astol007 at GATTAMELATA.COM  Wed Apr 28 10:15:19 2010
From: astol007 at GATTAMELATA.COM (Alexander A. Stolyarov)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 10 14:15:19 +0400
Subject: Cola period Tamil inscription in Sri Lanka
In-Reply-To: <u2y76c1007b1004280305l361f8588q78ad19faa1e6c49f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227089396.23782.8241369697026892881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi Whitney

Try South Indian inscriptions Volume IV around inscription No. 1389.

E. Francis

Whitney Cox ?????:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> On p. 9 (paragraph no. 8) of his Annual Report on Epigraphy for the
> year 1909-1910 (G.O. no. 665, July '10), Krishna Sastri refers to the
> then-recent discovery by "H. C. P. Bell, esq.,  Archeological
> Commissioner, Ceylon" of a number of Tamil inscriptions found in ?iva
> and Vi??u temples in Polannaruwa.  Krishna Sastri goes on to report
> that the "only complete record of the set was a Cho?a inscription of
> the 11th century A.D. and belonged to the time of Adhir?jendra".
>
> Could anyone direct me to a published version of this record?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Whitney
>
>   




From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE  Thu Apr 29 10:14:33 2010
From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 10 12:14:33 +0200
Subject: GRETIL update #371
Message-ID: <161227089401.23782.10461360682813405958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its
collection:

 

Malinivijayottaratantra
<http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#MalvT>
(revised)


Mitramisra: Viramitrodaya: Samayaprakasa
<http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#MViramitrSam>
(reformatted)

 

__________________________________________________________________________ 

"GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites
for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission
statement") 

GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: 

http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm




From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Apr 29 20:40:36 2010
From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 10 15:40:36 -0500
Subject: Tara iconography
In-Reply-To: <001801cae7ce$065b5ad0$13121070$@de>
Message-ID: <161227089412.23782.8767625899939108581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

See also,
Willson and Brauen, Deities of Tibetan Buddhism
(Boston: Wisdom) which includes translations of
Tibetan versions of  many of the sadhanas from
which the icons are derived.

Matthew T. Kapstein
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies
The University of Chicago Divinity School

Directeur d'?tudes
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Thu Apr 29 22:02:27 2010
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 10 18:02:27 -0400
Subject: Tara iconography
In-Reply-To: <20100429154036.CNI86436@m4500-02.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089415.23782.16455057135107519630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Lars Martin,

What you have been given so far is mostly descriptive iconography. If  
yous scholar wants iconology as well as iconography, s/he should look at
the following in addition to those mentioned:

Read first:

Willson, Martin. In Praise of Tara (Includes very nice drawings of  
Astamaha-abhaya Tara)

Beyer, Stephen, Cult of Tara

Then then:

Anon. Cittamani Tara: The collected arrangement of recitations of an  
extended sadhana of Cittamani Tara

Yeshe, Lama Thubten, Cittamani Tara: A Commentary on the  
Anuttarayogatantra Method of Cittamani Tara

__________________, The twenty-one Taras

Zopa, Lama Thubten, Offering Prayer of the Four Mandalas to Cittamani  
Tara

T?ranath?, Jo-nan, The Origin of the Tara Tantra

If there is time, read:

Maitra, A. K., T?r? Tantram. Varendra Research Society, 1914 (Might be  
a bit hard to find)

Ghosh, Mallar. Development of Buddhist Iconography in Eastern India:   
A Study of Tara Prajnas of Five Tathgatas art Bhrikuti

Shastri, H., The Origin and Cult of Tara




From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO  Thu Apr 29 16:40:51 2010
From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 10 18:40:51 +0200
Subject: Tara iconography
Message-ID: <161227089404.23782.16958512498416860894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the list,
 
a scholar I know is looking for a book on Buddhist iconography, particularly
Tara. Can anybody help?
 
Best regards,
 
Lars Martin Fosse
 


From: 
Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse 
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 
0674 Oslo - Norway 
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax:  +47 850 21 250 
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 
E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no 


 




From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM  Thu Apr 29 18:25:35 2010
From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 10 20:25:35 +0200
Subject: Tara iconography
In-Reply-To: <D250712F3640432CB387FCC3D15BE05C@Winston>
Message-ID: <161227089406.23782.7631487703870380326.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

HI Lars,

The following should be helpful for Buddhist iconography, including
for Buddhist tantric iconography (and what is shared with Hindus):

Getty, Alice (1928), The Gods of Northern Buddhism. Their History and
Iconography, first edition 1914, second edition 1928, Oxford,
Clarendon Press; reprinted (unabridged replication), New York, Dover
Publications, Inc., 1988.

De Mallmann, Marie-Th?r?se (1963), Les Enseignements Iconographiques
de L'Agni Purana. Paris, Presses Universitaires de France, 1963.

De Mallmann, Marie-Th?r?se (1968), "Hindu Deities in Tantric
Buddhism," translated by Simon Watson Taylor, Zentralasiatische
Studien 2, Bonn, Seminar fur Sprach- und Kultur-Wissenschaft
Zentralasiens der Universitat, 1968, pp. 41-54.

De Mallmann, Marie-The?r?se (1975) (1986), Introduction ?
l'Iconographie du Tantrisme Bouddhique. dessins de Muriel Thiriet,
Paris, Centre Nationale de la Recherche Scientifique, 1975,
Biblioteque du Centre de Recherches sur l'Asie Central et la Haute
Asie, vol. 1. (Reprinted essentially as a second edition, though not
noted as such, in 1986, Paris, Librarie d'Am?rique et d'Orient).

Cheers
James Hartzell

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 6:40 PM, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at getmail.no> wrote:
> Dear members of the list,
>
> a scholar I know is looking for a book on Buddhist iconography, particularly
> Tara. Can anybody help?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lars Martin Fosse
>
>
>
> From:
> Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
> Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
> 0674 Oslo - Norway
> Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: ?+47 850 21 250
> Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
> E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no
>
>
>
>




From cbpicron at GMX.DE  Thu Apr 29 18:58:54 2010
From: cbpicron at GMX.DE (Claudine Bautze-Picron)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 10 20:58:54 +0200
Subject: Tara iconography
In-Reply-To: <D250712F3640432CB387FCC3D15BE05C@Winston>
Message-ID: <161227089409.23782.8825108670162954294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Lars,

There is also :
1) Mallar Ghosh, Development of Buddhist iconography in Eastern India: a Study of T?r?, Prajn?s of five Tath?gatas and Bhrikut?, New Delhi: Munshiram Manoharlal, 1980
2) Benoytosh Bhattacharyya, The Indian Buddhist Iconography mainly based on the S?dhanam?l? and other cognate T?ntric Texts of Rituals, second edition revised and enlarged with 357 illustrations, Calcutta: Firma K.L. Mukhopadhyaya, 1958
And
3) Ar?nes, Pierre. 1996. La D?esse Sgrol-ma (T?r?), recherches sur la Nature et le Statut d?une Divinit? du Bouddhisme Tib?tain. Leuven : Uitgeverij Peeters en Department Ori?ntalistiek : not really dealing with iconography, but probably the best available work on the T?r?.
With all my best wishes,

Claudine Bautze-Picron
UMR 7528 'Mondes Iranien et Indien'
http://www.iran-inde.cnrs.fr/


-----Original Message-----
From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Lars Martin Fosse
Sent: Donnerstag, 29. April 2010 18:41
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Tara iconography

Dear members of the list,
 
a scholar I know is looking for a book on Buddhist iconography, particularly
Tara. Can anybody help?
 
Best regards,
 
Lars Martin Fosse
 


From: 
Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse 
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 
0674 Oslo - Norway 
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax:  +47 850 21 250 
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 
E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no 


 




From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO  Thu Apr 29 22:40:37 2010
From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 10 00:40:37 +0200
Subject: Tara iconography
In-Reply-To: <E7C7846C-BDDB-4D88-A7AD-CE65D7226488@osu.edu>
Message-ID: <161227089418.23782.6616258979090579385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks, John! I have passed it on!

LM


From:
Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo - Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax:  +47 850 21 250
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no


 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of 
> John C. Huntington
> Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 12:02 AM
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Tara iconography
> 
> Dear Lars Martin,
> 
> What you have been given so far is mostly descriptive 
> iconography. If yous scholar wants iconology as well as 
> iconography, s/he should look at the following in addition to 
> those mentioned:
> 
> Read first:
> 
> Willson, Martin. In Praise of Tara (Includes very nice 
> drawings of Astamaha-abhaya Tara)
> 
> Beyer, Stephen, Cult of Tara
> 
> Then then:
> 
> Anon. Cittamani Tara: The collected arrangement of 
> recitations of an extended sadhana of Cittamani Tara
> 
> Yeshe, Lama Thubten, Cittamani Tara: A Commentary on the 
> Anuttarayogatantra Method of Cittamani Tara
> 
> __________________, The twenty-one Taras
> 
> Zopa, Lama Thubten, Offering Prayer of the Four Mandalas to 
> Cittamani Tara
> 
> T?ranath?, Jo-nan, The Origin of the Tara Tantra
> 
> If there is time, read:
> 
> Maitra, A. K., T?r? Tantram. Varendra Research Society, 1914 
> (Might be a bit hard to find)
> 
> Ghosh, Mallar. Development of Buddhist Iconography in Eastern 
> India:   
> A Study of Tara Prajnas of Five Tathgatas art Bhrikuti
> 
> Shastri, H., The Origin and Cult of Tara=




From peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU  Fri Apr 30 13:44:36 2010
From: peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU (Peter Friedlander)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 10 06:44:36 -0700
Subject: Multilingual Inscriptions
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%201004190000016754.0ACE@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227089420.23782.15327677621138491347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

I am working on a piece about translation in India pre-1800 and wonder if anybody has written on inscriptions which appear in more than one language. I am thinking of things like the way that Ashokan inscriptions have the same messages localised to the speech of different locations. Are there any examples from more recently of rulers issuing edicts in several scripts and languages?

thanks

Peter

---------------------------
Peter Gerard 
FRIEDLANDER (Dr) :: 
Senior Lecturer, 
Centre for Language Studies and South?Asian Studies Programme?:: Faculty of Arts 
& Social Sciences :: National University of Singapore :: AS4 9 Arts Link, 
#02-01 :: Singapore 117570 :: 65-6516 2468 (DID) :: 65-6777 7736 (Fax) :: 
clspgf at nus.edu.sg (E) :: www.nus.edu.sg (W) :: http://www.fas.nus.edu.sg/cls/ (CLS 
Website) :: Company Registration No: 
200604346E



      




From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Apr 30 18:31:28 2010
From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 10 11:31:28 -0700
Subject: Multilingual Inscriptions
Message-ID: <161227089428.23782.14140431556301246948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

K.R. Norman has a very interesting and relevant study of the translation 
process underlying the Greek versions of Asokan inscriptions: JRAS 1972: 
111-118.

Rich Salomon


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Friedlander" <peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 6:44 AM
Subject: Multilingual Inscriptions


Dear Colleagues,

I am working on a piece about translation in India pre-1800 and wonder if 
anybody has written on inscriptions which appear in more than one language. 
I am thinking of things like the way that Ashokan inscriptions have the same 
messages localised to the speech of different locations. Are there any 
examples from more recently of rulers issuing edicts in several scripts and 
languages?

thanks

Peter

---------------------------
Peter Gerard
FRIEDLANDER (Dr) ::
Senior Lecturer,
Centre for Language Studies and South Asian Studies Programme :: Faculty of 
Arts
& Social Sciences :: National University of Singapore :: AS4 9 Arts Link,
#02-01 :: Singapore 117570 :: 65-6516 2468 (DID) :: 65-6777 7736 (Fax) ::
clspgf at nus.edu.sg (E) :: www.nus.edu.sg (W) :: 
http://www.fas.nus.edu.sg/cls/ (CLS
Website) :: Company Registration No:
200604346E




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Apr 30 16:44:23 2010
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 10 12:44:23 -0400
Subject: Multilingual Inscriptions
In-Reply-To: <624860.96373.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227089422.23782.15180011857695585833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As I recall, Shelly Pollock, in "The language of the gods in the world of men," discusses inscriptions in which the background (genealogy etc.) is in Sanskrit, followed by the specific legal transaction in a vernacular.

Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Team Coordinator
South Asia Team, Asian Division
Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.




From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET  Fri Apr 30 17:42:12 2010
From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (gthomgt at COMCAST.NET)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 10 17:42:12 +0000
Subject: Multilingual Inscriptions
In-Reply-To: <610898674.18173001272649179126.JavaMail.root@sz0152a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <161227089425.23782.9097128636660057532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is also?much useful discussion of bilingual inscriptions in Richard Salomon's *Indian Epigraphy.* 

George Thompson 




From juergen.neuss at FU-BERLIN.DE  Fri Apr 30 21:49:08 2010
From: juergen.neuss at FU-BERLIN.DE (=?utf-8?Q?J=C3=BCrgen_Neuss?=)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 10 23:49:08 +0200
Subject: Multilingual Inscriptions
In-Reply-To: <624860.96373.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227089430.23782.7692071812652529344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

dear peter,

i don't know whether this is of importance for your query, but immediately  
the inscription at saluvanguppam came to my mind. it is an identical text  
inscribed on the northern and southern wall of a temple in northern and  
southern brahmi script respectively.
see:
Hultzsch, E.: "Inscriptions on the Cave-Temple at Saluvanguppam." EI  
10.1909-10: 12-14.

cheers

j





Am Fri, 30 Apr 2010 15:44:36 +0200 hat Peter Friedlander  
<peterfriedlander at yahoo.com.au> geschrieben:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> I am working on a piece about translation in India pre-1800 and wonder  
> if anybody has written on inscriptions which appear in more than one  
> language. I am thinking of things like the way that Ashokan inscriptions  
> have the same messages localised to the speech of different locations.  
> Are there any examples from more recently of rulers issuing edicts in  
> several scripts and languages?
>
> thanks
>
> Peter
>
> ---------------------------
> Peter Gerard
> FRIEDLANDER (Dr) ::
> Senior Lecturer,
> Centre for Language Studies and South Asian Studies Programme :: Faculty  
> of Arts
> & Social Sciences :: National University of Singapore :: AS4 9 Arts Link,
> #02-01 :: Singapore 117570 :: 65-6516 2468 (DID) :: 65-6777 7736 (Fax) ::
> clspgf at nus.edu.sg (E) :: www.nus.edu.sg (W) ::  
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> Website) :: Company Registration No:
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>
>
>
>
>


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