From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 1 10:36:06 2009 From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Fri, 01 May 09 10:36:06 +0000 Subject: Ethical Dilemmas of Krishna Message-ID: <161227086091.23782.174748915406706053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends: Both the Mahabharata and the Shrimad Bhagvata Purana present situations in which Krishna is seen transgressing ethical norms. In the Bhagavata this is resolved through the concept of Yogamaya. What is the resolution of these problems in the Mahabharata? Is the Karma Yoga of the Gita a possible resolution? Thanks. Harsha Harsha V. Dehejia Carleton University, Ottawa, ON., Canada. From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Fri May 1 20:19:06 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 01 May 09 13:19:06 -0700 Subject: Ethical Dilemmas of Krishna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086100.23782.6601623772592837502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harsha, There is this article: Matilal, Bimal Krishna. 1991. Krsna: In Defence of a Devious Divinity. In Essays on the Mahabharata, ed. Arvind Sharma, 401-18. Leiden: E. J. Brill. And this this collection of articles: Matilal, Bimal Krishna, ed. 1989. Moral Dilemmas in the Mahabharata. Shimla and Delhi: Indian Institute of Advanced Study, in association with Motilal Banarsidass. Regards, Luis _____ on 5/1/2009 3:36 AM Harsha Dehejia wrote: > Friends: > > > > Both the Mahabharata and the Shrimad Bhagvata Purana present situations in which Krishna is seen transgressing ethical norms. > > > In the Bhagavata this is resolved through the concept of Yogamaya. > > > What is the resolution of these problems in the Mahabharata? Is the Karma Yoga of the Gita a possible resolution? > > > Thanks. > > > > Harsha > > Harsha V. Dehejia > > Carleton University, Ottawa, ON., Canada. > > From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Fri May 1 13:33:00 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 01 May 09 15:33:00 +0200 Subject: sarve bhavantu sukhina=?UTF-8?Q?=E1=B8=A5?= Message-ID: <161227086094.23782.7734127936201652391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ... sarve santu nir?maya? I've been asked where this famous sentence comes from, historically, and I don't know. The Mah?mantr?nus?ri?? (thanks to Peter Skilling and GRETIL) has it: C.3.16. sarve satv?? sarve pr???? sarve bh?t?? ca keval?? / sarve vai sukhina? santu sarve santu nir?may?? / sarve bhadr??i pa?yantu m? ka?cit p?pam ?gamat // But people usually ascribe it to one of the upani?ads, where as far as I can see it doesn't appear. Is it known from other, older sources? Thanks, Dominik From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Fri May 1 13:35:47 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 01 May 09 15:35:47 +0200 Subject: Carbon dating of palm-leaf MSS? In-Reply-To: <4896FEF35D359441AB2A680756941DDD07B60B23@MAIL2.mcs.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227086096.23782.3219100220768836953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks! I've now forgotten who originated the query, but I'll search and forward your email. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Fri, 1 May 2009, Mark Allon wrote: > Dominik, > > Sorry for the delay, but mail takes a long time to get to Australia! > > Your friend may be interested in the following article by myself, Richard Salomon, and two scientists: > > Allon, Mark, R. Salomon, G. Jacobsen, and U. Zoppi. 2006. ?Radiocarbon Dating of Kharo??h? Fragments from the Sch?yen and Senior Manuscript Collections.? In Jens Braarvig, ed., Buddhist Manuscripts III. Manuscripts in the Sch?yen Collection 4, pp. 279?91. Oslo: Hermes Publishing. > > If he wants a pdf, I'll send it to you. > > Regards > Mark Allon > University of Sydney > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Dominik Wujastyk > Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 7:38 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Carbon dating of palm-leaf MSS? > > This message is forwarded on behalf of R. Ganapathy, who is not a member > of this forum. Please be sure to CC any replies to him, at > > > Dominik Wujastyk > INDOLOGY committee > > ------------ Forwarded Message ----------- > On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, RG wrote: > >> Dear Dr Wujastyk: >> >> I got your address through a friend of mine in London. >> >> I was a Senior Res Associate at the Enrico Fermi Inst of the Univ of Chicago >> many years ago. >> >> I have a palm leaf manuscript, 868 pages, with grantha script describing >> Valmiki's Ramayan. I got this from an antique shop in Cochin five years ago. >> >> Because grantha was used in South India to transmit Sanskrit language, I >> decided to date this using carbon-14 method using accelerator mass >> spectrometry. I just got the preliminary age few days ago, about 350 years >> old from today. >> >> I searched the google to find other carbon 14 dates on the use of grantha >> script. I did not get any useful information. Since I am new to this field, >> I am looking for help in locating journals which publish C-14 dates on >> Indian palm leaf manuscripts. What kind of range do we have on these >> dates?I would deeply appreciate if you can help me on this. >> >> Thank you. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> R.Ganapathy >> >> Bethlehem, PA, USA >> >> > From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Fri May 1 14:33:33 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 01 May 09 16:33:33 +0200 Subject: SARIT News Message-ID: <161227086098.23782.18422200490430582251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, Richard Mahoney and I have been pushing the SARIT project http://sarit.indology.info forward with energy. 1. The British Association of South Asian Studies has awarded a grant to promote the SARIT project. The amount we were awarded is lower than we requested, but is still enough to enable progress. I would like to thank all those who provided letters of support for our application. I am certain that these votes of confidence made a major difference. 2. We have recently been in active discussions about possible collaboration with institutions in India. We have also been talking with members of the TEI consortium about setting up training courses in India for inputters. If this initiative succeeds, and there are still many hurdles, it might be possible for SARIT to grow rapidly. Of course, the bigger the database of searchable Indic texts, the more useful it will be to all of us. 3. Richard has now developed a software pipeline so that all texts added to the SARIT library will not only be searchable, indexable, etc., but will also be downloadable in toto, as HTML (as with GRETIL) or as PDF. See the new "Downloads" menu entry in the Navigation menu on the right side of the main screen. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com From mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU Fri May 1 08:50:43 2009 From: mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU (Mark Allon) Date: Fri, 01 May 09 18:50:43 +1000 Subject: Carbon dating of palm-leaf MSS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086089.23782.17859590535393889660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik, Sorry for the delay, but mail takes a long time to get to Australia! Your friend may be interested in the following article by myself, Richard Salomon, and two scientists: Allon, Mark, R. Salomon, G. Jacobsen, and U. Zoppi. 2006. ?Radiocarbon Dating of Kharo??h? Fragments from the Sch?yen and Senior Manuscript Collections.? In Jens Braarvig, ed., Buddhist Manuscripts III. Manuscripts in the Sch?yen Collection 4, pp. 279?91. Oslo: Hermes Publishing. If he wants a pdf, I'll send it to you. Regards Mark Allon University of Sydney -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Dominik Wujastyk Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 7:38 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Carbon dating of palm-leaf MSS? This message is forwarded on behalf of R. Ganapathy, who is not a member of this forum. Please be sure to CC any replies to him, at Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY committee ------------ Forwarded Message ----------- On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, RG wrote: > Dear Dr Wujastyk: > > I got your address through a friend of mine in London. > > I was a Senior Res Associate at the Enrico Fermi Inst of the Univ of Chicago > many years ago. > > I have a palm leaf manuscript, 868 pages, with grantha script describing > Valmiki's Ramayan. I got this from an antique shop in Cochin five years ago. > > Because grantha was used in South India to transmit Sanskrit language, I > decided to date this using carbon-14 method using accelerator mass > spectrometry. I just got the preliminary age few days ago, about 350 years > old from today. > > I searched the google to find other carbon 14 dates on the use of grantha > script. I did not get any useful information. Since I am new to this field, > I am looking for help in locating journals which publish C-14 dates on > Indian palm leaf manuscripts. What kind of range do we have on these > dates?I would deeply appreciate if you can help me on this. > > Thank you. > > Sincerely, > > R.Ganapathy > > Bethlehem, PA, USA > > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sat May 2 09:58:48 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 02 May 09 15:28:48 +0530 Subject: SARIT News Message-ID: <161227086102.23782.5116744689981290951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Fine! Could?the Shriimuulaa commentary, T.G.Shastri, K.A. be uploaded? It is for sometime out of print with not much assurance from MLBD of a quick reprint. DB --- On Fri, 1/5/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: SARIT News To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 1 May, 2009, 8:03 PM Dear colleagues, Richard Mahoney and I have been pushing the SARIT project ??? http://sarit.indology.info forward with energy. 1. The British Association of South Asian Studies has awarded a grant to promote the SARIT project.? The amount we were awarded is lower than we requested, but is still enough to enable progress. I would like to thank all those who provided letters of support for our application.? I am certain that these votes of confidence made a major difference. 2. We have recently been in active discussions about possible collaboration with institutions in India.? We have also been talking with members of the TEI consortium about setting up training courses in India for inputters. If this initiative succeeds, and there are still many hurdles, it might be possible for SARIT to grow rapidly.? Of course, the bigger the database of searchable Indic texts, the more useful it will be to all of us. 3. Richard has now developed a software pipeline so that all texts added to the SARIT library will not only be searchable, indexable, etc., but will also be downloadable in toto, as HTML (as with GRETIL) or as PDF.? See the new "Downloads" menu entry in the Navigation menu on the right side of the main screen. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon May 4 00:05:03 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 03 May 09 17:05:03 -0700 Subject: The Indus "script"? Message-ID: <161227086105.23782.3507596400780327532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Simon Brodbeck writes, on the "Indus script" question: > I hope it will not be out of place here to say how little I am > looking forward to the apparently forthcoming treatment of this > issue in this forum. > > I have no doubt that if any present parties have anything > substantial to add to the debate, we shall see it in print before > long. In the meantime, I wonder how much is to be gained by > repeating, in more or less rhetorical variants, contributions that > have already been made in print. > Sorry for the delayed response, and just hit "delete", Simon. :^) I'll try to make this my only post, unless someone responds to the specific evidence I discuss below. I agree that this isn't the ideal forum for this discussion. That would require the contributions of archaeologists, comparative historians, and computational linguists, few of whom are on the List. There is nothing rhetorical in what I say below, nor am I simply repeating points already made in print. Two major points: 1. My last post on this List was actually nine years ago, and the only reason I posted last week was to respond to a pop news story sent to the List by an Indologist on the paper by Rao et al. -- actually the worst of the stories published so far, entitled "Artificial Intelligence Cracks 4000-Year-Old Mystery." When something like that is posted without comment on a research List, supposedly overturning the work of you and your colleagues, most people would feel constrained to respond. :^) Now that the statistical flaws in Rao et al. have been thoroughly discussed by well-known computational linguists including Mark Liberman and Fernando Pereira (neither of whom I know), there isn't much to add beyond what they say here: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1374 (updated since it first appeared) http://earningmyturns.blogspot.com/2009/04/falling-for-magic- formula.html The bottom line is a critical point that is rarely mentioned anywhere, let alone on the Indology List: no single statistical measure can distinguish speech-encoding systems (writing) from symbol systems that encode semantic data of other types. (See here especially Pereira's comments in the second link above.) The only reason that the data of Rao et al. look superficially convincing to non-specialists is because of the huge gap they show in their data (see their chart in the first link above) between clustered groups of Indus signs and a carefully selected group of natural languages and two wholly *invented* data sets of supposedly "representative examples" of nonlinguistic symbols -- neither of which are anything like anything found in the ancient world. Rao et al. calculated *no* values at all for ancient nonlinguistic symbol systems beyond those from the Indus -- despite what they suggest in the main body of their paper. In other words, they slipped one by the Science reviewers. If you don't think this paper will affect future work in Indus studies by people, including researchers, many of whom get their views of research outside their specialized fields from outside reports and newspapers, think again. The question of whether Indus symbols did or not encode writing may seem a trivial Glasperlenspiel to those whose work doesn't involve studies of the impact of literacy on premodern civilizations. It is anything but an empty scholastic game: writing is an enabling technology that when it existed fundamentally transformed ancient civilizations. And surrounding the Indus -- among the BMAC, in the cities of the Gulf, and in the urban centers of the SE Iranian plateau (e.g., at Jiroft, whose supposed "writing" has been shown in the past year to consist of modern forgeries) -- we find no writing either. The significance of this for Indus studies and ancient studies in general will be discussed at length in Kyoto at the end of this month, by me and Michael Witzel, by perhaps the leading specialist on Iranian and Gulf archaeology, Dan Potts, and others. Nothing old or rhetorical about that discussion either. 2. I also feel constrained to point out that the summaries Parpola gave on this List in the wake of the discussion of Rao et al. -- which didn't directly pertain to our views of Parpola's work -- have little to do with our real views. E.g., he summarizes and disposes of what he claims as one of the arguments of Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel this way: > All literary civilizations produced longer texts but there are none > from the Indus Valley ? hence the Indus script is no writing > system: Farmer and his colleagues reject the much repeated early > assumption that longer texts may have been written on birch bark, > palm leaves, parchment, wood, or cotton cloth, any of which would > have perished in the course of ages as suggested by Sir John > Marshall in 1931 (I, 39). Farmer and his colleagues are ready to > believe the Indus script thesis only if an Indus text at least 50 > signs long is found. > > *But* even though Farmer and his colleagues speak as if our present > corpus of texts was everything there ever existed, this is not the > case. More than 2100 Indus texts come from Mohenjo-daro alone, and > yet less than one tenth of that single city has been excavated. > Farmer and his colleagues do not know what has existed and what may > be found in the remaining parts of the city, even if it is likely > that only imperishable material of the kinds already available > continue to be found. The Rongo-Rongo tablets of Easter Island are > much longer than 50 signs. But does this make it certain that they > represent writing in the strict sense? > Nothing here represents any of our nuanced views. We certainly never speak "as if our present corpus of texts was everything there ever existed." Nor would we claim that every symbol string in the world over 50 signs long is "writing." Richard Sproat is in fact an expert on Rongo-Rongo, and we could point of course to manuscript length mnemonic or "prompt" texts among the Mixtecs, Aztecs, or (in Asia) the Naxi, of which I have indeed talked about at length in lectures attended by Parpola in 2005 (Kyoto) and 2007 (at Stanford). But Indus symbols don't belong to this subtype of nonlinguistic symbols, as we argue -- nonlinguistic like linguistic signs come in a surprisingly wide variety of 'flavors'. We in fact say something like that on the first page of our 2004 paper. In any event, our arguments about "text" length are considerably more sophisticated than the way they are summarized above. The "lost manuscript" thesis, which was accepted with little discussion from Hunter 1929 to Marshall 1931 to Parpola 1994, was introduced to explain away the obvious lack of anything remotely looking like a text in the Indus Valley. The reason the argument fails was something we first noted: no premodern civilization is known that wrote long texts on perishable materials but failed to leave *obvious* and *abundant* examples of such texts behind on durable materials as well. We're not talking here about obscurely buried archives. If in a Gedankenexperiment you took away all perishable materials of any type from China, India, Central Asia, Iran, Anatolia, Greece, Italy, Mesopotamia, Mesoamerica, etc., it wouldn't change one bit our understanding of which civilizations in those regions were literate. This would be due to the massive numbers of long texts, often numbering in the hundreds of thousands, that the literate civilizations of these regions left behind in obvious places. In 2009, five years after our paper was published, we no longer find speculation about the literary "activities of the Harappan scribes and scholars", which Parpola 1994 compared "on the analogy of 'empires' comparable to the Indus Civilization" to Aztec "writing" (Parpola 1994: 54). (Actually, Aztec texts aren't really "writing" at all in the technical sense, as noted above.) In his recent post, Asko tells us instead that the "type of texts I expect to be lost is exemplified by the Mycenaean Linear B tablets, i.e. economic accounts, not literature, which was probably handed down orally...." This doesn't make speculation about lost Indus archives more credible, due to the massive scale of the excavations conducted since the 1920s. Compare here -- we haven't written about this anywhere -- with finds of Linear B, of which we have many thousands of long texts. The first Minoan site ever excavated, at Knossos, quickly turned up no less than 4300 Linear B texts (plus of course seals, etc.). Nearly *all* of these texts are far longer than what is by far the longest "Indus text" on a single surface, consisting of 17 high- frequency but non-repeating signs on a square about 1 inch square. After the find of 4300 long Linear B texts at Knossos, another 1000 or so showed up at Pylos. Then 300 or so from Thebes. And now we have perhaps another 300 so far from other sites. Others turn up every year. These are not obscure finds. Archaeological science rarely proves anything outright, but eventually hypotheses based on speculation concerning *possible* finds introduced to "save" a thesis, but that never materialize are eventually quietly abandoned -- especially when that speculation conflicts with what is commonly known from cross-cultural archaeological studies from many other parts of the world. (India may be "different", as Indologists often say, but not *that* different.) The Indus left thousands of short symbol strings behind on many types of materials, not just "seals" -- pots, potsherds, metal plates, weapons, molded terracotta tablets, incised shells, cones and rods, etc. -- the same kinds of materials on which other civilizations (including those that routinely wrote on perishable materials) left thousands of *long* texts behind. This is especially true of potsherds, which were among the most prevalent writing materials in the ancient world, since they were far cheaper than rather expensive perishable materials (including cloth). You have to have an explanation for that, and of course for all the missing texts, and without one the traditional "Indus script" thesis quite frankly isn't credible. That's it for me, as noted above, unless someone wants to discuss the evidence discussed here. All this will be picked up in Kyoto later this month, so I'm fine in leaving it here. The big issue to the minds of me and my colleagues -- Michael Witzel, Richard Sproat, the archaeologist Dorian Fuller, others -- isn't the now standard question that we introduced five years ago ("Is it a writing system or not?"), but about all the exciting new research avenues that are opened up as soon as you recognize the abundant evidence that says it wasn't. Best wishes, S. Farmer From peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU Mon May 4 06:00:46 2009 From: peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU (Peter Friedlander) Date: Sun, 03 May 09 23:00:46 -0700 Subject: Three 'sanskrit' slokas? Message-ID: <161227086107.23782.12574010489654482647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I am working on a 19th century Jain manuscript in Hindi which contains three 'Sanskrit' slokas. Well sort of, they are as follows, any guesses on where they might be from or might mean? You are welcome to reply off list to me as well on clspgf at nus.edu.sg?if you can suggest any leads on them. thanks, Peter ? AtmvatsarvabhUtAnI par drabANI toSTvata para strImAtRataMyageyaM jo jAnAti paNDitaH ? eva AtmacidrayaH sarIrIkarmAjAgataH dhyAnAgani karmadagaddhAni sajA tiparamaMpadaH. 1 ? prANa raSaNaM tulaMdharmanhI pApazcaprANaghAtakaH kSamAtulaMtapasyai nabhUtobhaviSyatI ? Enjoy a better web experience. Upgrade to the new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7. Get it now. From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon May 4 13:10:06 2009 From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (Gary Tubb) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 08:10:06 -0500 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <20090504140949.63681t045c484bul@webmail.helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <161227086112.23782.157572734931447986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The appended message is forwarded to the list by request. --Gary Tubb. Dear Editor, I have read with interest the postings on ?Translations into Sanskrit ? and would appreciate if you would post the following under that heading. ?In the 1950s and 1960s the Brahman Sabha of Girgaum, Mumbai undertook to present every year a play in Sanskrit in which well known local actors participated. These plays were well attended by the members of the Sabha and their friends. I think around 10 plays were presented. Of these at least 3 were translations of well known Marathi plays written in late 1800s and early 1900s. They were Sangita Samshyakallolam by R.R. Deshpande and Sangita Shaaradaa by Limaye (based on the Marathi plays of the same name written by Govind Ballal Deval), Sangita Saubhadram by S. B. Velankar (based on the Marathi play of the same name written by Balwant ?Annasaheb? Kirloskar). The original Marathi songs of these plays were easily recognisable in their Sanskrit translations and could be sung in the same raga. Just to add, two more plays Bhartuhariyam (written by V. D. Gangal IAS) and Kalidascharitam (written by S.B. Velankar) were also presented. I have copies of all these plays except Sangita Sharada?. Thank you Dilip Chirmuley From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon May 4 15:16:41 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 08:16:41 -0700 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: <20090504140949.63681t045c484bul@webmail.helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <161227086114.23782.11206385623081309377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Asko Parpola writes, > If the Mycenaeans had written their administrative documents on > perishable material instead of clay, and all those thousands of > texts of this type would have been lost (like all texts written on > perishable material in Ashoka's empire have been lost, and > evidently the Harappan administrative documents -- for it is > difficult to imagine those large cities being managed without any > accounting), would the remaining other types of Linear B texts be > better evidence for Mycenaean literacy than what survives from the > Indus Civilization? > With best regards, "Ashok" Dear "Ashok" -- and I do like the label, :^) This newest speculation claim doesn't answer the evidence I raised in my post, Asko. First of all, we know for a fact that extensive urban civilizations both in Eurasia and in the New World did very well without writing -- both before the invention of writing and after. The Mesopotamian and Minoan/Mycenaean court finance systems in fact were apparently rather anomalous in premodern urban states. For extensive discussion -- and much more can be said -- see M. Fragipane et al. (12 named co-authors), _Arslantepe Cretulae: An Early Centralized Administrative System Before Writing_ (Rome, 2007, 528 pp.), where this issue is developed at considerable length. Also, not long after the Harvard Roundtable meeting where we first met, in 2002, when Michael Witzel and I were first introducing our non-script model, Carl Lamberg-Karlovsky (who was also there) published a little paper, "To write or not to write," in _Culture through Objects_, ed. Timothy Potts et al., Cambridge U. Press, 2003, that discusses at some length non-literate civilizations existing side-by-side with literate ones in premodern Eurasia. (I'll vastly expand on this theme at our upcoming Kyoto meeting, in a talk Michael, Richard Sproat, and I (with me presenting) will give, entitled "The Collapse of the Indus Script Thesis, Five Years Later: Massive Non-Literate Urban Civilizations of Ancient Eurasia". I believe that the archaeologist Dan Potts, who of course knows Gulf and Iranian archaeology better than anyone (see, e.g., _The Archaeology of Elam_, 1999; and his many other studies), may talk about similar topics.) Finally, your invocation of Ashoka below doesn't help your argument. All real literate civilizations, like Ashoka's, whenever they wrote on perishable materials, also, and quite obviously, left extensive texts behind on durable materials. There is no exception to that rule that we know of in world civilizations. That's the key part of this one (out of many) arguments we first collected in "Collapse of the Indus Script Thesis" in 2004: http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2.pdf Of course one could claim that the Indus are the one exception! But then the argument gets even more circular..... I guess I should add at the end that I have often argued (in talks you've attended too) that one special class of Indus inscribed objects -- the rather crudely made so-called miniature tablets from Harappa proper -- had economic uses of a type, as what I've tentatively characterized (e.g., at the Harvard Roundtable in 2004; also Kyoto 2005) as "vouchers" of a sort or as part of a "sacrificial tithe system" in communal seasonal festivals. (None of this in print yet.) But right or wrong -- I think others have made similar suggestions -- that's independent of the "writing" issue. Looking forward to seeing you in Kyoto in a few weeks. We have a new proposal we plan to make in Kyoto for how all of us can collaborate in a new, well financed, way to tap the data in the inscriptions in innovative ways. We're hoping it will interest you. Best wishes, Steve > Quoting "Steve Farmer" : > >> Asko tells us instead that the "type of texts I expect to be lost >> is exemplified by the Mycenaean Linear B tablets, i.e. economic >> accounts, not literature, which was probably handed down orally...." >> >> This doesn't make speculation about lost Indus archives more >> credible, due to the massive scale of the excavations conducted >> since the 1920s. Compare here -- we haven't written about this >> anywhere -- with finds of Linear B, of which we have many >> thousands of long texts. The first Minoan site ever excavated, at >> Knossos, quickly turned up no less than 4300 Linear B texts (plus >> of course seals, etc.). Nearly *all* of these texts are far longer >> than what is by far the longest "Indus text" on a single surface, >> consisting of 17 high-frequency but non-repeating signs on a >> square about 1 inch square. >> >> After the find of 4300 long Linear B texts at Knossos, another >> 1000 or so showed up at Pylos. Then 300 or so from Thebes. And now >> we have perhaps another 300 so far from other sites. Others turn >> up every year. These are not obscure finds. >> >> Archaeological science rarely proves anything outright, but >> eventually hypotheses based on speculation concerning *possible* >> finds introduced to "save" a thesis, but that never materialize >> are eventually quietly abandoned -- especially when that >> speculation conflicts with what is commonly known from cross- >> cultural archaeological studies from many other parts of the >> world. (India may be "different", as Indologists often say, but >> not *that* different.) >> >> The Indus left thousands of short symbol strings behind on many >> types of materials, not just "seals" -- pots, potsherds, metal >> plates, weapons, molded terracotta tablets, incised shells, cones >> and rods, etc. -- the same kinds of materials on which other >> civilizations (including those that routinely wrote on perishable >> materials) left thousands of *long* texts behind. This is >> especially true of potsherds, which were among the most prevalent >> writing materials in the ancient world, since they were far >> cheaper than rather expensive perishable materials (including >> cloth). You have to have an explanation for that, and of course >> for all the missing texts, and without one the traditional "Indus >> script" thesis quite frankly isn't credible. >> From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Mon May 4 16:53:51 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 09:53:51 -0700 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086116.23782.16061526422179834429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems to me there is a fallacy in Steve Farmer's contention that no civilization with writing lacks longer texts. The fact is, if any civilization committed all its writing to perishable materials, we would not know they had writing. There may be 20 or 30 ancient civilizations that had writing about which we have no clue. Thus one cannot argue that if the IV civ. had writing we would necessarily have longer texts. All we know is that they left their symbols on specialized seals and on a couple of artifacts (the famous sign). Carving something on stone or making a seal is a lot more difficult than writing on a palmyra leaf -- there is no reason whatsoever why they couldn't have written longer things (like accounts ) on bark or some other material that is perishable and easier to write on. We have no long examples of writing in Tamil from Sangam times, yet we know that they had writing and wrote longer documents on palmyra leaves. Of course, Farmer et al. have other arguments that need to be considered. George Hart On May 4, 2009, at 8:16 AM, Steve Farmer wrote: > Asko Parpola writes, > >> If the Mycenaeans had written their administrative documents on >> perishable material instead of clay, and all those thousands of >> texts of this type would have been lost (like all texts written on >> perishable material in Ashoka's empire have been lost, and >> evidently the Harappan administrative documents -- for it is >> difficult to imagine those large cities being managed without any >> accounting), would the remaining other types of Linear B texts be >> better evidence for Mycenaean literacy than what survives from the >> Indus Civilization? > >> With best regards, "Ashok" > > Dear "Ashok" -- and I do like the label, :^) > > This newest speculation claim doesn't answer the evidence I raised > in my post, Asko. First of all, we know for a fact that extensive > urban civilizations both in Eurasia and in the New World did very > well without writing -- both before the invention of writing and > after. The Mesopotamian and Minoan/Mycenaean court finance systems > in fact were apparently rather anomalous in premodern urban states. > For extensive discussion -- and much more can be said -- see M. > Fragipane et al. (12 named co-authors), _Arslantepe Cretulae: An > Early Centralized Administrative System Before Writing_ (Rome, 2007, > 528 pp.), where this issue is developed at considerable length. > > Also, not long after the Harvard Roundtable meeting where we first > met, in 2002, when Michael Witzel and I were first introducing our > non-script model, Carl Lamberg-Karlovsky (who was also there) > published a little paper, "To write or not to write," in _Culture > through Objects_, ed. Timothy Potts et al., Cambridge U. Press, > 2003, that discusses at some length non-literate civilizations > existing side-by-side with literate ones in premodern Eurasia. (I'll > vastly expand on this theme at our upcoming Kyoto meeting, in a talk > Michael, Richard Sproat, and I (with me presenting) will give, > entitled "The Collapse of the Indus Script Thesis, Five Years Later: > Massive Non-Literate Urban Civilizations of Ancient Eurasia". I > believe that the archaeologist Dan Potts, who of course knows Gulf > and Iranian archaeology better than anyone (see, e.g., _The > Archaeology of Elam_, 1999; and his many other studies), may talk > about similar topics.) > > Finally, your invocation of Ashoka below doesn't help your argument. > All real literate civilizations, like Ashoka's, whenever they wrote > on perishable materials, also, and quite obviously, left extensive > texts behind on durable materials. There is no exception to that > rule that we know of in world civilizations. That's the key part of > this one (out of many) arguments we first collected in "Collapse of > the Indus Script Thesis" in 2004: > > http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2.pdf > > Of course one could claim that the Indus are the one exception! But > then the argument gets even more circular..... > > I guess I should add at the end that I have often argued (in talks > you've attended too) that one special class of Indus inscribed > objects -- the rather crudely made so-called miniature tablets from > Harappa proper -- had economic uses of a type, as what I've > tentatively characterized (e.g., at the Harvard Roundtable in 2004; > also Kyoto 2005) as "vouchers" of a sort or as part of a > "sacrificial tithe system" in communal seasonal festivals. (None of > this in print yet.) But right or wrong -- I think others have made > similar suggestions -- that's independent of the "writing" issue. > > Looking forward to seeing you in Kyoto in a few weeks. We have a new > proposal we plan to make in Kyoto for how all of us can collaborate > in a new, well financed, way to tap the data in the inscriptions in > innovative ways. We're hoping it will interest you. > > Best wishes, > Steve > >> Quoting "Steve Farmer" : >> >>> Asko tells us instead that the "type of texts I expect to be lost >>> is exemplified by the Mycenaean Linear B tablets, i.e. economic >>> accounts, not literature, which was probably handed down orally...." >>> >>> This doesn't make speculation about lost Indus archives more >>> credible, due to the massive scale of the excavations conducted >>> since the 1920s. Compare here -- we haven't written about this >>> anywhere -- with finds of Linear B, of which we have many >>> thousands of long texts. The first Minoan site ever excavated, at >>> Knossos, quickly turned up no less than 4300 Linear B texts (plus >>> of course seals, etc.). Nearly *all* of these texts are far longer >>> than what is by far the longest "Indus text" on a single surface, >>> consisting of 17 high-frequency but non-repeating signs on a >>> square about 1 inch square. >>> >>> After the find of 4300 long Linear B texts at Knossos, another >>> 1000 or so showed up at Pylos. Then 300 or so from Thebes. And now >>> we have perhaps another 300 so far from other sites. Others turn >>> up every year. These are not obscure finds. >>> >>> Archaeological science rarely proves anything outright, but >>> eventually hypotheses based on speculation concerning *possible* >>> finds introduced to "save" a thesis, but that never materialize >>> are eventually quietly abandoned -- especially when that >>> speculation conflicts with what is commonly known from cross- >>> cultural archaeological studies from many other parts of the >>> world. (India may be "different", as Indologists often say, but >>> not *that* different.) >>> >>> The Indus left thousands of short symbol strings behind on many >>> types of materials, not just "seals" -- pots, potsherds, metal >>> plates, weapons, molded terracotta tablets, incised shells, cones >>> and rods, etc. -- the same kinds of materials on which other >>> civilizations (including those that routinely wrote on perishable >>> materials) left thousands of *long* texts behind. This is >>> especially true of potsherds, which were among the most prevalent >>> writing materials in the ancient world, since they were far >>> cheaper than rather expensive perishable materials (including >>> cloth). You have to have an explanation for that, and of course >>> for all the missing texts, and without one the traditional "Indus >>> script" thesis quite frankly isn't credible. >>> From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon May 4 19:23:41 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 12:23:41 -0700 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: <1D712055-859C-4E63-BF6C-714F6C25BD26@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086119.23782.17500482693538630065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Hart writes: > It seems to me there is a fallacy in Steve Farmer's contention that > no civilization with writing lacks longer texts. The fact is, if > any civilization committed all its writing to perishable materials, > we would not know they had writing. There may be 20 or 30 ancient > civilizations that had writing about which we have no clue. Thus > one cannot argue that if the IV civ. had writing we would > necessarily have longer texts. All we know is that they left their > symbols on specialized seals and on a couple of artifacts (the > famous sign). Carving something on stone or making a seal is a lot > more difficult than writing on a palmyra leaf -- there is no reason > whatsoever why they couldn't have written longer things (like > accounts ) on bark or some other material that is perishable and > easier to write on. We have no long examples of writing in Tamil > from Sangam times, yet we know that they had writing and wrote > longer documents on palmyra leaves. Of course, Farmer et al. have > other arguments that need to be considered. Dear George: Ignoring all the purely speculative "what if's" in your post, just a reminder, although I hate to repeat myself: what we in fact argue is that no known civilization that wrote long texts on perishable materials didn't also leave texts of significant length behind on durable materials. On your claims about the earliest Tamil inscriptions: I know this is your field, but your claims here are demonstrably wrong. See the photo and discussion below. The fact is, the Indus left *thousands* of short symbol strings behind on all sorts of durable objects -- not just on "a couple of artifacts." Huge numbers of symbol strings on potsherds haven't even been cataloged, as you'd find if you read the excavation reports. None of them is of any length, unlike the situation in all known literate civilizations in antiquity. Moreover, if we believe the dates given by the Harappa Archaeological Research Project (HARP), run by Richard Meadow and Mark Kenoyer, those finds extend over a millennium. As already noted, these durable materials include *exactly* the same kinds of materials that truly literate civilizations routinely wrote long texts on. There are issues of pausibility at stake here, leaving aside totally untestable speculation that "There may be 20 or 30 ancient civilizations that had writing about which we have no clue." Well, there usually are clues -- and also clues when you're not looking at "writing" but other types of ancient symbols, of which there are in fact many "flavors," as we've discovered over the past decade. Quickly: Why everyplace else in the world where we KNOW there was literacy would we find literate peoples leaving long texts behind on potsherds, pottery, metal plates, vessels, weapons, etc.? -- while in the Indus civilization *only* they *exclusively* left symbols behind on the same types of objects that were *never* more than a handful of symbols long? I guess you could in principle argue that there was a taboo on leaving long texts behind but not thousands of short ones. :^) Well, one Indus researcher whose whole career has revolved around "Indus writing" has actually said something, obviously rather in desperation. .... You write that "carving something on stone or making a seal is a lot more difficult than writing on a palmyra leaf." This is in fact not true, George. As you'll recall when you think about it, preparation of palm leaves for writing is a quite elaborate and time-consuming practice. It is also expensive (as is writing on materials like cloth, parchment, silk, papyrus; wood also takes special preparation). See for one review, Anupam Sah, "Palm leaf manuscripts of the world: material, technology, and conservation," Reviews in Conservation (2002): 15-24. We take perishable writing materials for granted. The ancients could not. Scratching on a potsherd, on the other hand, is quick, extremely cost efficient, and very useful, especially for accounting records. (Think here of the hundreds of thousands of ostraca with accounting records we have from the ancient Mediterranean.) We have many hundreds of thousands of examples of potsherd fragments with real writing and quite long texts from all over the ancient world -- including India, but of course not from Indus times. In any event, take a look at our already detailed discussion of this issue on around p. 23 in "Collapse" (), and esp. Fig. 1. One final and obviously critical point -- since it involves your own field. You write: > We have no long examples of writing in Tamil from Sangam times, yet > we know that they had writing and wrote longer documents on palmyra > leaves. I hate to point out that claims from someone who is a specialist (as you are) in this field are wrong, but.... :^) If you in fact look at the photos of the very earliest Tamil inscriptions, in Iravatham Mahadevan, _Early Tamil Epigraphy: From the Earliest Times to the Sixth Century A.D._, Harvard, 2003 (in the series edited by Michael), you'll see unambiguous evidence that the inscriptions, scarce as they are, were *regularly* longer than *any* of the thousands of Indus "inscriptions" from many centuries of Indus civilization. Ouch! I always thought that was amusing, and when Mahadevan published his wonderful 2003 book I pointed out the irony to him when we both gave talks at a big Indus conference. In fact, the very FIRST inscription he gives in his book (pp. 314-15), which he dates to the 2nd century BCE, is in fact well over three times longer than any Indus inscription gathered over the past 135 years from large numbers of sites dating from the late 4th millennium to early 2nd millennium! Take a look at this scan I just made of Mahadevan's transcription of that piece: http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/early.tamil.inscription.jpg If anyone came up with one such real (not fake) Indus inscription, Michael, Richard, and I would have to fork over $10,000. (It won't happen, but we'd *gleefully* turn over the $10 K -- not our money, but an anonymous donor's -- for reasons we explain in our 2004 paper.) We've carefully looked at all these counter-arguments, George -- trying to falsify our own model. That's what goes on in science, if it is real science: trying to "save" a busted model is a scholastic and not scientific exercise. Things in fact only get interesting when models get busted, so you try every way to find holes in your own arguments -- not burying those holes anyway you can. (That's what I learned from my years hanging out with theoretical high-energy physicists: I quickly learned that unfortunately that wasn't the norm in ancient studies.) But the evidence wins in the long run, and then you move on to the new interesting places that takes you. That's what we plan to do in Kyoto later this month. Hmm, why do I feel as if I'm in a tag-team wrestling match with Dravidianists? Is there a bigger story here that involves things thousands of kilometers (and years) from any Indus sites? :^) > Of course, Farmer et al. have other arguments that need to be > considered. Indeed, and those arguments are constantly being missummarized in the discussions. We are very careful in our arguments --- and we try to careful summarize the positions of those on the other side. That's a requirement for honest scientific discussion, as we see it. Best wishes, S. Farmer From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Mon May 4 20:41:33 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 13:41:33 -0700 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: <99450102-F055-4DB4-89D2-176B2A7D75CC@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227086121.23782.15535502991849208893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Steve, Thanks for your reply. Of course, our Tamil inscriptions from Sangam times are longer than the IV writing/symbols, but they're still relatively short, which was my point, and very very few have survived. You wrote, "The reason the argument fails was something we first noted: no premodern civilization is known that wrote long texts on perishable materials but failed to leave *obvious* and *abundant* examples of such texts behind on durable materials as well." Your premise is correct, but your conclusion (that the IV civilization could not have had writing) does not follow, as we have no way of knowing of (perhaps numerous) civilizations that had writing but left no surviving record. This is not a "what if," but a purely logical problem. What's more, each of the civilizations we know about had its own peculiar and distinguishing features. Surely, it's not a stretch to imagine that the IV people wrote longer texts on perishable materials. As I said, this does not affect your other arguments. As far as "Dravidianists" are concerned -- I think there has been a natural and understandable tendency to speculate that the IV Civ might have spoken a Dravidian language. Michael Witzel takes issue with this in his extraordinarily detailed articles on substratum languages in the RV, and his arguments are impressive -- though they're not conclusive, in my opinion. I do, however, find myself tending to accept his idea that the linguistic composition of the IV and surrounding areas at the time of the RV was quite complex, and that Dravidian was only one of several families spoken there. My particular concern is to get some notion of the prehistory of South India and the influx (if there was one) of the Dravidian languages into that area. While this area is outside my expertise, my impression is that Dravidian speakers might have come to South India about 3000 BC and brought neolithic culture. I'd be interested if others have evidence in this regard. George On May 4, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Steve Farmer wrote: > George Hart writes: > >> It seems to me there is a fallacy in Steve Farmer's contention that >> no civilization with writing lacks longer texts. The fact is, if >> any civilization committed all its writing to perishable materials, >> we would not know they had writing. There may be 20 or 30 ancient >> civilizations that had writing about which we have no clue. Thus >> one cannot argue that if the IV civ. had writing we would >> necessarily have longer texts. All we know is that they left their >> symbols on specialized seals and on a couple of artifacts (the >> famous sign). Carving something on stone or making a seal is a lot >> more difficult than writing on a palmyra leaf -- there is no reason >> whatsoever why they couldn't have written longer things (like >> accounts ) on bark or some other material that is perishable and >> easier to write on. We have no long examples of writing in Tamil >> from Sangam times, yet we know that they had writing and wrote >> longer documents on palmyra leaves. Of course, Farmer et al. have >> other arguments that need to be considered. > > Dear George: > > Ignoring all the purely speculative "what if's" in your post, just a > reminder, although I hate to repeat myself: what we in fact argue is > that no known civilization that wrote long texts on perishable > materials didn't also leave texts of significant length behind on > durable materials. > > On your claims about the earliest Tamil inscriptions: I know this is > your field, but your claims here are demonstrably wrong. See the > photo and discussion below. > > The fact is, the Indus left *thousands* of short symbol strings > behind on all sorts of durable objects -- not just on "a couple of > artifacts." Huge numbers of symbol strings on potsherds haven't even > been cataloged, as you'd find if you read the excavation reports. > None of them is of any length, unlike the situation in all known > literate civilizations in antiquity. > > Moreover, if we believe the dates given by the Harappa > Archaeological Research Project (HARP), run by Richard Meadow and > Mark Kenoyer, those finds extend over a millennium. As already > noted, these durable materials include *exactly* the same kinds of > materials that truly literate civilizations routinely wrote long > texts on. > > There are issues of pausibility at stake here, leaving aside totally > untestable speculation that "There may be 20 or 30 ancient > civilizations that had writing about which we have no clue." Well, > there usually are clues -- and also clues when you're not looking at > "writing" but other types of ancient symbols, of which there are in > fact many "flavors," as we've discovered over the past decade. > > Quickly: Why everyplace else in the world where we KNOW there was > literacy would we find literate peoples leaving long texts behind on > potsherds, pottery, metal plates, vessels, weapons, etc.? -- while > in the Indus civilization *only* they *exclusively* left symbols > behind on the same types of objects that were *never* more than a > handful of symbols long? > > I guess you could in principle argue that there was a taboo on > leaving long texts behind but not thousands of short ones. :^) Well, > one Indus researcher whose whole career has revolved around "Indus > writing" has actually said something, obviously rather in > desperation. .... > > You write that "carving something on stone or making a seal is a lot > more difficult than writing on a palmyra leaf." This is in fact not > true, George. As you'll recall when you think about it, preparation > of palm leaves for writing is a quite elaborate and time-consuming > practice. It is also expensive (as is writing on materials like > cloth, parchment, silk, papyrus; wood also takes special preparation). > > See for one review, Anupam Sah, "Palm leaf manuscripts of the world: > material, technology, and conservation," Reviews in Conservation > (2002): 15-24. > > We take perishable writing materials for granted. The ancients could > not. Scratching on a potsherd, on the other hand, is quick, > extremely cost efficient, and very useful, especially for accounting > records. (Think here of the hundreds of thousands of ostraca with > accounting records we have from the ancient Mediterranean.) We have > many hundreds of thousands of examples of potsherd fragments with > real writing and quite long texts from all over the ancient world -- > including India, but of course not from Indus times. In any event, > take a look at our already detailed discussion of this issue on > around p. 23 in "Collapse" (), and > esp. Fig. 1. > > One final and obviously critical point -- since it involves your own > field. You write: > >> We have no long examples of writing in Tamil from Sangam times, yet >> we know that they had writing and wrote longer documents on palmyra >> leaves. > > I hate to point out that claims from someone who is a specialist (as > you are) in this field are wrong, but.... :^) If you in fact look at > the photos of the very earliest Tamil inscriptions, in Iravatham > Mahadevan, _Early Tamil Epigraphy: From the Earliest Times to the > Sixth Century A.D._, Harvard, 2003 (in the series edited by > Michael), you'll see unambiguous evidence that the inscriptions, > scarce as they are, were *regularly* longer than *any* of the > thousands of Indus "inscriptions" from many centuries of Indus > civilization. > > Ouch! I always thought that was amusing, and when Mahadevan > published his wonderful 2003 book I pointed out the irony to him > when we both gave talks at a big Indus conference. In fact, the very > FIRST inscription he gives in his book (pp. 314-15), which he dates > to the 2nd century BCE, is in fact well over three times longer than > any Indus inscription gathered over the past 135 years from large > numbers of sites dating from the late 4th millennium to early 2nd > millennium! Take a look at this scan I just made of Mahadevan's > transcription of that piece: > > http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/early.tamil.inscription.jpg > > If anyone came up with one such real (not fake) Indus inscription, > Michael, Richard, and I would have to fork over $10,000. (It won't > happen, but we'd *gleefully* turn over the $10 K -- not our money, > but an anonymous donor's -- for reasons we explain in our 2004 paper.) > > We've carefully looked at all these counter-arguments, George -- > trying to falsify our own model. That's what goes on in science, if > it is real science: trying to "save" a busted model is a scholastic > and not scientific exercise. Things in fact only get interesting > when models get busted, so you try every way to find holes in your > own arguments -- not burying those holes anyway you can. (That's > what I learned from my years hanging out with theoretical high- > energy physicists: I quickly learned that unfortunately that wasn't > the norm in ancient studies.) > > But the evidence wins in the long run, and then you move on to the > new interesting places that takes you. That's what we plan to do in > Kyoto later this month. > > Hmm, why do I feel as if I'm in a tag-team wrestling match with > Dravidianists? Is there a bigger story here that involves things > thousands of kilometers (and years) from any Indus sites? :^) > >> Of course, Farmer et al. have other arguments that need to be >> considered. > > Indeed, and those arguments are constantly being missummarized in > the discussions. We are very careful in our arguments --- and we try > to careful summarize the positions of those on the other side. > That's a requirement for honest scientific discussion, as we see it. > > Best wishes, > S. Farmer From asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI Mon May 4 11:09:49 2009 From: asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 14:09:49 +0300 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: <436F97BA-3497-40F5-971E-182D04A2F54C@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227086109.23782.9628884729951027677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If the Mycenaeans had written their administrative documents on perishable material instead of clay, and all those thousands of texts of this type would have been lost (like all texts written on perishable material in Ashoka's empire have been lost, and evidently the Harappan administrative documents -- for it is difficult to imagine those large cities being managed without any accounting), would the remaining other types of Linear B texts be better evidence for Mycenaean literacy than what survives from the Indus Civilization? With best regards, "Ashok" Quoting "Steve Farmer" : > Asko tells us instead that the "type of texts I expect to be lost is > exemplified by the Mycenaean Linear B tablets, i.e. economic > accounts, not literature, which was probably handed down orally...." > > This doesn't make speculation about lost Indus archives more > credible, due to the massive scale of the excavations conducted > since the 1920s. Compare here -- we haven't written about this > anywhere -- with finds of Linear B, of which we have many thousands > of long texts. The first Minoan site ever excavated, at Knossos, > quickly turned up no less than 4300 Linear B texts (plus of course > seals, etc.). Nearly *all* of these texts are far longer than what > is by far the longest "Indus text" on a single surface, consisting > of 17 high-frequency but non-repeating signs on a square about 1 > inch square. > > After the find of 4300 long Linear B texts at Knossos, another 1000 > or so showed up at Pylos. Then 300 or so from Thebes. And now we > have perhaps another 300 so far from other sites. Others turn up > every year. These are not obscure finds. > > Archaeological science rarely proves anything outright, but > eventually hypotheses based on speculation concerning *possible* > finds introduced to "save" a thesis, but that never materialize are > eventually quietly abandoned -- especially when that speculation > conflicts with what is commonly known from cross-cultural > archaeological studies from many other parts of the world. (India > may be "different", as Indologists often say, but not *that* > different.) > > The Indus left thousands of short symbol strings behind on many > types of materials, not just "seals" -- pots, potsherds, metal > plates, weapons, molded terracotta tablets, incised shells, cones > and rods, etc. -- the same kinds of materials on which other > civilizations (including those that routinely wrote on perishable > materials) left thousands of *long* texts behind. This is especially > true of potsherds, which were among the most prevalent writing > materials in the ancient world, since they were far cheaper than > rather expensive perishable materials (including cloth). You have to > have an explanation for that, and of course for all the missing > texts, and without one the traditional "Indus script" thesis quite > frankly isn't credible. > > > Best wishes, > S. Farmer > > From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon May 4 21:30:37 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 14:30:37 -0700 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: <1E23F5BF-871A-4470-9335-3904243F8DA2@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086123.23782.14866415032508587802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, George. Everything you say in your most recent note is speculative, as I'm sure you'd admit, so it's hard to know how to respond. Is there a logical contradiction (as opposed to a question of plausibility) in claiming that the Indus were the only ancient people who have been claimed to be literate who (1) supposedly over many centuries wrote long texts on perishable materials, all of which have disappeared; and who (2) simultaneously left thousands of short "texts" (averaging 4-5 symbols long, often less) behind -- the only supposed evidence of their putative "literacy" -- on durable materials of many different types on which all other known literate civilizations left *long* texts? It isn't logically impossible, but it is grossly improbable when you compare the situation with evidence from *every* known literate civilizatio (including later ones from India, of course). But why would anyone bother with such improbable theses unless there were other motives at work? It's certainly nothing I'd prefer to discuss, but scientific discussion does take time (see on Frank Southworth, below). You write: > As far as "Dravidianists" are concerned -- I think there has been a > natural and understandable tendency to speculate that the IV Civ > might have spoken a Dravidian language. Michael Witzel takes issue > with this in his extraordinarily detailed articles on substratum > languages in the RV, and his arguments are impressive -- though > they're not conclusive, in my opinion. I do, however, find myself > tending to accept his idea that the linguistic composition of the > IV and surrounding areas at the time of the RV was quite complex, > and that Dravidian was only one of several families spoken there. Let me hand the ball over to Michael here in my own tag-team, if possible, since I'm getting worn out in center ring. :^) (Actually, Michael may not be available for a while, but I'll see him in Kyoto in a few weeks.) On this very point: I never could figure out (as a comparativist, not a S. Asianist: Michael is the S. Asianist component of my brain) why anyone would view the Indus regions as being mono-linguistic. I think it is only because I *was* an outsider that it seemed so strange to me. Then Michael and I discussed this issue in extenso in 1999, when he published some key papers on the substratum issue. Steve Weber (the Indus archaeologist, with whom we've worked a bit, along with Dorian Fuller) and I once had a conversation about this I'll never forget. Steve was a student of Possehl's and told me that when he was trained, the question was always presented in stark terms filled with unevidenced assumptions: "Which language (sic) did the Indus symbols encode? Was it some proto-Dravidian language or some early form of Indo-Aryan?" As Steve W. pointed out, the either/or issue was presented so definitively that no one even thought of alternatives. We realize now -- and I'm including here now Steve W. -- that there were a lot of assumptions in these leading questions, in what magicians call "Magician's Choice": (1) the unexamined assumption before Michael and I began working on this together, later joined by Richard Sproat, that there was a language of some sort encoded in these symbols; (2) the (largely) unexamined assumption that the Indus supposedly spoke one language (a pretty odd assumption when you consider the linguistic diversity in those regions in every other period, ancient or modern!); and (3) unexamined assumption three, that the "language" was supposedly proto-Dravidian (an even odder choice when you look at the evidence on the historical movements of Dravidian-speaking peoples, as Michael and many others now have argued at length). I remember how happy we all were when our good friend Frank Southworth (and deeply ingrained "Dravidianist" himself) finally capitulated after lots of heated and fun discussions at Harvard (and over drinks) on this back in 2004. During the 2004 Roundtable, he called his wife on the phone and said something along the lines of "Honey, I'm afraid we have to give in." :^) Frank was gracious enough after reading an early copy of "Collapse" to change key lines in the final proofs of _The Linguistic Archaeology of South Asia_ (2005) on the Indus issue. You write: > My particular concern is to get some notion of the prehistory of > South India and the influx (if there was one) of the Dravidian > languages into that area. While this area is outside my expertise, > my impression is that Dravidian speakers might have come to South > India about 3000 BC and brought neolithic culture. I'd be > interested if others have evidence in this regard. On this issue I'm very pleased to say I'm a total spectator -- which may allow me with this post to slip out the door. :^) Maybe we'll have more to say after some announcements in Kyoto. Best wishes and thanks, Steve From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue May 5 00:47:37 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 17:47:37 -0700 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: <49FF869C.7020607@comcast.net> Message-ID: <161227086128.23782.4423257288567362210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On May 4, 2009, at 5:21 PM, George Thompson wrote: > I believe that if one were to check the archives of this list, one > would find much discussion of the Indus Valley Civilization in > which scepticism that the IVC signs were a script is often expressed. Interesting, George! Can you quote some posts from before late 1999 (when I first posted on the List) where that is "often expressed?" I'm interested in seeing them. I've pointed to Fairservis' early partial suggestions to this from around 1969, but then he changed his mind after the claims came out that the "code" had been "broken." Lots of people have said after our work was published that they were privately skeptical about it (e.g., Frits Staal), but I didn't know of expressions (with arguments? without them?) on the List. Possehl's overview of the field from 1996 doesn't contain any hints along this direction. Anyway, credit isn't what is a stake here. Best, Steve From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Tue May 5 00:21:48 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 20:21:48 -0400 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: <8F547756-AC8F-4480-A072-DCCD45BF3F8E@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227086126.23782.11760553243317393804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Farmer wrote: <> I believe that if one were to check the archives of this list, one would find much discussion of the Indus Valley Civilization in which scepticism that the IVC signs were a script is often expressed. One would also find in these archives suggestions that IVC was possibly or even probably multilingual. India has been multilingual for as long as we have known it. All of this was known long before S. Farmer appeared on the scene "like some refreshing breath of fresh air" [in his own mind, that is]. Self-aggrandizement aside, there is little new here. The Farmer Sproat Witzel thesis is well-known already, and I am inclined to accept it. Parpola has offered only vaguely possible alternatives, hardly convincing. But Farmer has been quoted as stating that there is "zero chance" that the IVC signs reflect a true script! "Zero chance"? Is this an accurate quotation, and do Sproat and Witzel agree with it? Is the phrase "zero chance" truly scientific -- or is it, rather, merely more bluster from him? George Thompson > From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Tue May 5 01:34:40 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 21:34:40 -0400 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086130.23782.6691635206199841561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since Michael Witzel is the S. Asianist component of your brain, maybe you should consult him or it. I've got too many students and friends and family to take care of right now. I have given my suggestions. Pursue them for yourself, or not. As for credit *not* being at stake here: who are you kidding? GT Steve Farmer wrote: > On May 4, 2009, at 5:21 PM, George Thompson wrote: > >> I believe that if one were to check the archives of this list, one >> would find much discussion of the Indus Valley Civilization in which >> scepticism that the IVC signs were a script is often expressed. > > > Interesting, George! Can you quote some posts from before late 1999 > (when I first posted on the List) where that is "often expressed?" > I'm interested in seeing them. > > I've pointed to Fairservis' early partial suggestions to this from > around 1969, but then he changed his mind after the claims came out > that the "code" had been "broken." Lots of people have said after our > work was published that they were privately skeptical about it (e.g., > Frits Staal), but I didn't know of expressions (with arguments? > without them?) on the List. Possehl's overview of the field from 1996 > doesn't contain any hints along this direction. > > Anyway, credit isn't what is a stake here. > > Best, > Steve > > From fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU Tue May 5 12:00:41 2009 From: fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU (FRITS STAAL) Date: Tue, 05 May 09 05:00:41 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086134.23782.13315081175392550823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Do you think such blogs would be of any use to me? Can I open them? Thanks as always, best, Frits > The "links" section of the INDOLOGY website now contains a new section > listing indology-related blogs. > > http://indology.info/links/weblog/ > > Please send any suggestions for additional blogsites to > > indologycommittee at liverpool.ac.uk > > Additions to the INDOLOGY webiste listing will be at the discretion of the > committee. > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > International Institute of Asian Studies > http://iias.nl > > long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com > Frits Staal http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Tue May 5 10:31:58 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 05 May 09 11:31:58 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY website update Message-ID: <161227086132.23782.1097881200469336030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The "links" section of the INDOLOGY website now contains a new section listing indology-related blogs. http://indology.info/links/weblog/ Please send any suggestions for additional blogsites to indologycommittee at liverpool.ac.uk Additions to the INDOLOGY webiste listing will be at the discretion of the committee. Best, Dominik Wujastyk -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed May 6 18:52:09 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Wed, 06 May 09 14:52:09 -0400 Subject: Hindi Lecturer Position at Michigan Message-ID: <161227086137.23782.145122579861753091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Here is the Ad for a Hindi Lecturer Position at the University of Michigan. Please circulate it among interested individuals. Thanks. "The Department of Asian Languages and Cultures at University of Michigan invites applications for the position of Lecturer I in Hindi beginning September 1, 2009. The position is a renewable one-year appointment, and is subject to final budgetary approval. Applicants should have a Master?s degree in a relevant field such as the following: Hindi language, literature, or linguistics; Hindi Studies; second-language acquisition, TESL, etc. Native or near-native proficiency in Hindi and English is required; at least one year of experience teaching Hindi at the college/university level is preferred. Duties will include 12 weekly hours of instruction in all levels of Hindi language and active participation in teamwork and program affairs. The application dossier should include an application letter explaining your qualifications and teaching philosophy, a current CV, and three letters of recommendation. In addition, evidence of teaching excellence, a teaching demo videotape/DVD, and/or samples of self-developed teaching materials would be desirable. Kindly send your application packet to: Hindi Lecturer Search Committee, Department of Asian Languages and Cultures, University of Michigan, Suite 6111 Thayer Building, 202 South Thayer, Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608. Or electronically Review of applications will begin on June 1 and will continue until the position is filled. University of Michigan is a non-discriminatory/affirmative action employer. Women and minorities are encouraged to apply. Terms and conditions for this position are subject to the provisions of a Collective Bargaining Agreement between the University of Michigan and the Lecturers? Employee Organization." Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Wed May 6 21:46:53 2009 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Thu, 07 May 09 09:46:53 +1200 Subject: INDOLOGY updates now on _Twitter_ Message-ID: <161227086139.23782.6154549929279006322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Lately I've been wondering about the best way to quickly provide updates on the INDOLOGY web site and the SARIT Project &c., so I've decided to try something new. The existing RSS Feed for the site: http://indology.info/rss1.xml is being replaced by a new RSS Feed courtesy of _Twitter_: *RSS Feed of INDOLOGY's Updates* http://twitter.com/statuses/user_timeline/38036206.rss People are asked to update their feed readers and perhaps consider following our updates through _Twitter_ itself: *INDOLOGY on Twitter* http://twitter.com/INDOLOGY For those curious about why _Twitter_ is being tried these links may be helpful: This is how we do it: @nlnz on Twitter (National Library of New Zealand / Te Puna M?tauranga o Aotearoa) http://tinyurl.com/dx2ktf Why I Love Twitter by Tim O'Reilly http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/11/why-i-like-twitter.html Best regards, Richard -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu May 7 19:26:21 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Thu, 07 May 09 15:26:21 -0400 Subject: TAMIL Lecturer Position at Michigan Message-ID: <161227086146.23782.4932827461309900602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Here is the Ad for a Tamil Lecturer Position at the University of Michigan. Please circulate it among interested individuals. Thanks. The Department of Asian Languages and Cultures at University of Michigan invites applications for a renewable Lecturer position in Tamil language starting September 1, 2009. Applicants should have an MA in a relevant field, native or near-native competence in oral/written Tamil and English, at least two years of experience in teaching Tamil as a second or foreign language at the college/university level, knowledge of the US educational system, and familiarity with language teaching methodologies as well as computer-assisted language instruction. Expertise and experience in curriculum and program development are preferred. Responsibilities include 10-12 instructional hours a week at any assigned levels and active involvement in teamwork and program affairs. A complete dossier includes a letter of application explaining your qualifications and teaching philosophy, a current CV, evidence of teaching excellence, a teaching demo DVD, and three letters of recommendation. Samples of materials and/or project development are strongly recommended. Please send all your application documents to Tamil Lecturer Search Committee, Department of Asian Languages and Cultures, University of Michigan, 202 S. Thayer Street, Suite 6111, Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608. Review of applications will begin March 10 and continue until the position is filled. University of Michigan is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer. Terms and conditions for this position are subject to the provisions of a Collective Bargaining Agreement between the University of Michigan and the Lecturers? Employee Organization. Inquiries should be directed to Nikki Branch (enb at umich.edu), Department Administrator. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Thu May 7 15:09:19 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Thu, 07 May 09 17:09:19 +0200 Subject: Dr.Godard Hendrik Schokker passed away Message-ID: <161227086141.23782.11935435136424559984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the first of May Dr. Godard Schokker had passed away. Dr.Schokker had been teaching Hindi language and literature as well as Marathi and Bengali at the Institute Kern of Leiden University, The Netherlands. Dr. Schokker had retired many years ago was still very active in his field of indology. I am sure many people: colleagues and former students will miss him and fondly remember his patient but steady way of explaining the knotty points of Hindi grammar. One of dr. Schokker's last writings was a contribution together with dr. M.K.Gautam on Johan Josua Ketelaar (1659-1718) and the first summary of Hindustani grammar in Dutch for the servants of the Dutch East India Company (the VOC). Victor van Bijlert Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu May 7 16:36:31 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 07 May 09 22:06:31 +0530 Subject: Dr.Godard Hendrik Schokker passed away Message-ID: <161227086144.23782.17374668151430432039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is sad news. Dr.Schokker's character was charming and unassuming. I never knew from him that he was a good Sanskrit philologist too. Even only a knowledge of his acquaintance with and broad interpretation of late medieval Hindi literature and literary movements made one discern a distinct scholarship and personality. Schokker well recognised the social content underlying the religion oriented literature. Not many in the West will see 'protestantism' in Meera and Kabir. Dipak Bhattacharya --- On Thu, 7/5/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Dr.Godard Hendrik Schokker passed away To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 7 May, 2009, 8:39 PM On the first of May Dr. Godard Schokker had passed away. Dr.Schokker had been teaching Hindi language and literature as well as Marathi and Bengali at the Institute Kern of Leiden University, The Netherlands. Dr. Schokker had retired many years ago was still very active in his field of indology. I am sure many people: colleagues and former students will miss him and fondly remember his patient but steady way of explaining the knotty points of Hindi grammar. One of dr. Schokker's last writings was a contribution together with dr. M.K.Gautam on Johan Josua Ketelaar (1659-1718) and the first summary of Hindustani grammar in Dutch for the servants of the Dutch East India Company (the VOC). Victor van Bijlert Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri May 8 11:15:01 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Fri, 08 May 09 07:15:01 -0400 Subject: Unusual word - help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086162.23782.15937723489908025624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Venetia, ?tasthu?? is the feminine form of ?tasthivas, masculine: ?tasthiv?n, from ?+sth?. [Perfect Participle, Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar, p. 291.] The verbal construction will be: striya? talpam ?ti??hante "the women resort to ..." Best, Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of venetia ansell [venetia.ansell at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 6:38 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Unusual word - help needed Can anyone help me with the form of ?tasthu????m from Vedanta Deshika's Hamsasandesham 1.20? The verse and translation are below and I've added the glosses that two commentaries give: ik?u-cch?ye kisalaya-maya? talpam ?tasthu????? sa?l?pais tair mudita-manas?? ??li-sa?rak?ik???m | kar????-?ndhra-vyatikara-va??t karbure g?ti-bhede muhyant?n?? madana-kalu?a? maugdhyam ?sv?dayeth?? *Relish the simplicity, stirred up by love, of the girls who guard the rice. They revel at heart in all sorts of gossip as they sit in the shade of the sugarcane using sprouting shoots as seats, forgetting themselves entirely in the strangely blended songs formed from a mix of the **Kar???ak** and ** ?ndhra** tongues.* One commentary glosses '??rit?n??' and another '?sthitavat?n?m'. Thank you very much, Venetia Ansell From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Fri May 8 07:48:26 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 08 May 09 09:48:26 +0200 Subject: Question on digital epigraphy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086149.23782.5751021778827306969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, checking some internet resources for Indian epigraphy, I came across an interesting example of digital hybrid: the item so-called "EPO [sic] GRAPHIA BIRMANICA VOL 4 PART 2 (1973)" http://www.archive.org/details/epographiabirman014758mbp appears to mix 1?) the additional plates to Epigraphia Birmanica IV/1, 1936 ["EPIGRAPHIA BIRMANICA"], the preceding part being available at http://www.archive.org/details/epigraphiabirman014350mbp 2?) An incomplete index (p. 103-171, letters M to V) of places, names and realia referring obviously to inscriptions from Karnataka, under the form: Date (from 1909 to 1920), P. + a number (two digits) I am very interested by this index, where I would like to know to which refers this: "Santima, Island, 1910, P. 28" So thank you in advance for helping me to identify both the source-index and the reference (some volume of the ARMAD?), Christophe Vielle A few other interesting epigraphical resources : -Epigraphia Carnatica IV , 1893 http://www.archive.org/details/epigraphiacarnat04mysouoft -EC V/1, 1902 http://www.archive.org/details/epigraphiacarnat05mysouoft -EC X, 1905 http://www.archive.org/details/p2epigraphiacarn10mysouoft -Annual Report of the Mysore Archaeological Department for the year 1932 (1935) -EC new series III, 1974 http://www.archive.org/details/epigraphiacarnat014759mbp - Epigraphia Indo-Moslemica 1937-38 ["EPOGRAPHIA BIRMANICA VOL 4 PART 2 (1937)"] http://www.archive.org/details/epographiabirman014774mbp -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From H.J.H.Tieken at HUM.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri May 8 10:57:54 2009 From: H.J.H.Tieken at HUM.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Fri, 08 May 09 12:57:54 +0200 Subject: Unusual word - help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086154.23782.11853410271761452283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is the genitive plural fem. of the active perfect participle of aa-sthaa-: aatasthivas/aatasthu.s Herman Tieken -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of venetia ansell Sent: vrijdag 8 mei 2009 12:39 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Unusual word - help needed Can anyone help me with the form of ?tasthu????m from Vedanta Deshika's Hamsasandesham 1.20? The verse and translation are below and I've added the glosses that two commentaries give: ik?u-cch?ye kisalaya-maya? talpam ?tasthu????? sa?l?pais tair mudita-manas?? ??li-sa?rak?ik???m | kar????-?ndhra-vyatikara-va??t karbure g?ti-bhede muhyant?n?? madana-kalu?a? maugdhyam ?sv?dayeth?? *Relish the simplicity, stirred up by love, of the girls who guard the rice. They revel at heart in all sorts of gossip as they sit in the shade of the sugarcane using sprouting shoots as seats, forgetting themselves entirely in the strangely blended songs formed from a mix of the **Kar???ak** and ** ?ndhra** tongues.* One commentary glosses '??rit?n??' and another '?sthitavat?n?m'. Thank you very much, Venetia Ansell From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Fri May 8 10:58:40 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Fri, 08 May 09 12:58:40 +0200 Subject: Unusual word - help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086157.23782.7157089276986569225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Its a perfect participle of aasthaa. See MW s.v. tasthivas: mf(<-thu.sii>)n. pf. p. P. , q.v. An echo of Raghuva.m"sa 4:20: ik.succhaayaani.saadinyas tasya goptur gu.nodayam| aakumaarakathodghaata.m "saaligopyo jagur ya"sa.h|| On 8 May 2009, at 12:38, venetia ansell wrote: > Can anyone help me with the form of ?tasthu????m from Vedanta > Deshika's > Hamsasandesham 1.20? The verse and translation are below and I've > added the > glosses that two commentaries give: > > ik?u-cch?ye kisalaya-maya? talpam ?tasthu????? > > sa?l?pais tair mudita-manas?? ??li-sa?rak?ik???m | > > kar????-?ndhra-vyatikara-va??t karbure g?ti-bhede > muhyant?n?? madana-kalu?a? maugdhyam ?sv?dayeth?? > > *Relish the simplicity, stirred up by love, of the girls who guard > the rice. > They revel at heart in all sorts of gossip as they sit in the shade > of the > sugarcane using sprouting shoots as seats, forgetting themselves > entirely in > the strangely blended songs formed from a mix of the > **Kar???ak** and ** > ?ndhra** tongues.* > > One commentary glosses '??rit?n??' and another > '?sthitavat?n?m'. > > Thank you very much, > > Venetia Ansell From straube at STAFF.UNI-MARBURG.DE Fri May 8 11:01:33 2009 From: straube at STAFF.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Martin Straube) Date: Fri, 08 May 09 13:01:33 +0200 Subject: Unusual word - help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086159.23782.17705567675146922560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It looks like a reduplicated perfect participle (gen. pl. fem.) of ?-sth?, hence it is correctly glossed "?sthitavat?n?m". Martin Straube Zitat von venetia ansell : > Can anyone help me with the form of ?tasthu????m from Vedanta Deshika's > Hamsasandesham 1.20? The verse and translation are below and I've added the > glosses that two commentaries give: > > ik?u-cch?ye kisalaya-maya? talpam ?tasthu????? > > sa?l?pais tair mudita-manas?? ??li-sa?rak?ik???m | > > kar????-?ndhra-vyatikara-va??t karbure g?ti-bhede > muhyant?n?? madana-kalu?a? maugdhyam ?sv?dayeth?? > > *Relish the simplicity, stirred up by love, of the girls who guard the rice. > They revel at heart in all sorts of gossip as they sit in the shade of the > sugarcane using sprouting shoots as seats, forgetting themselves entirely in > the strangely blended songs formed from a mix of the **Kar???ak** and ** > ?ndhra** tongues.* > > One commentary glosses '??rit?n??' and another '?sthitavat?n?m'. > > Thank you very much, > > Venetia Ansell > > --- Dr. des. Martin Straube Fachgebiet Indologie und Tibetologie Philipps-Universitaet Marburg Deutschhausstrasse 12 35032 Marburg (Germany) www.uni-marburg.de/indologie From venetia.ansell at GMAIL.COM Fri May 8 10:38:33 2009 From: venetia.ansell at GMAIL.COM (venetia ansell) Date: Fri, 08 May 09 16:08:33 +0530 Subject: Unusual word - help needed Message-ID: <161227086151.23782.13025769207159645918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone help me with the form of ?tasthu????m from Vedanta Deshika's Hamsasandesham 1.20? The verse and translation are below and I've added the glosses that two commentaries give: ik?u-cch?ye kisalaya-maya? talpam ?tasthu????? sa?l?pais tair mudita-manas?? ??li-sa?rak?ik???m | kar????-?ndhra-vyatikara-va??t karbure g?ti-bhede muhyant?n?? madana-kalu?a? maugdhyam ?sv?dayeth?? *Relish the simplicity, stirred up by love, of the girls who guard the rice. They revel at heart in all sorts of gossip as they sit in the shade of the sugarcane using sprouting shoots as seats, forgetting themselves entirely in the strangely blended songs formed from a mix of the **Kar???ak** and ** ?ndhra** tongues.* One commentary glosses '??rit?n??' and another '?sthitavat?n?m'. Thank you very much, Venetia Ansell From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri May 8 11:56:52 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 08 May 09 17:26:52 +0530 Subject: Unusual word - help needed Message-ID: <161227086164.23782.4033269298420447472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here ?sth? ?should mean ' to mount', talpa 'a raised bed, the Indian bed-stead or paalank'. But plain bed seems to have been?meant 'having seated themselves on a bed formed of twigs under the shade etc' gives better sense. DB --- On Fri, 8/5/09, Deshpande, Madhav wrote: From: Deshpande, Madhav Subject: Re: Unusual word - help needed To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 8 May, 2009, 4:45 PM Hello Venetia, ?tasthu?? is the feminine form of ?tasthivas, masculine:? ?tasthiv?n, from ?+sth?.? [Perfect Participle, Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar, p. 291.]? The verbal construction will be:? striya? talpam ?ti??hante? "the women resort to ..."? Best, Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of venetia ansell [venetia.ansell at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 6:38 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Unusual word - help needed Can anyone help me with the form of ?tasthu????m from Vedanta Deshika's Hamsasandesham 1.20?? The verse and translation are below and I've added the glosses that two commentaries give: ik?u-cch?ye kisalaya-maya? talpam ?tasthu????? sa?l?pais tair mudita-manas?? ??li-sa?rak?ik???m | kar????-?ndhra-vyatikara-va??t karbure g?ti-bhede muhyant?n?? madana-kalu?a? maugdhyam ?sv?dayeth?? *Relish the simplicity, stirred up by love, of the girls who guard the rice. They revel at heart in all sorts of gossip as they sit in the shade of the sugarcane using sprouting shoots as seats, forgetting themselves entirely in the strangely blended songs formed from a mix of the **Kar???ak** and ** ?ndhra** tongues.* One commentary glosses '??rit?n??' and another '?sthitavat?n?m'. Thank you very much, Venetia Ansell Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox From cbpicron at GMX.DE Mon May 11 13:42:39 2009 From: cbpicron at GMX.DE (Claudine Bautze-Picron) Date: Mon, 11 May 09 15:42:39 +0200 Subject: Journ=?iso-8859-15?Q?=E9e?= "Monde Indien", Paris, 25th May Message-ID: <161227086167.23782.5895147513401777688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, In case you are passing through Paris on Monday 25th May, you are most welcome to attend to the annual meeting of the Indologists of the research team ?Mondes Iranien et Indien?. You will find herewith the program and below the address of the day. The program together with the abstracts of the communications will also be visible on the team website in the next days. Claudine Bautze-Picron. C.N.R.S (National Centre for Scientific Research) ? UMR 7528 ?Mondes Iranien et Indien? http://www.iran-inde.cnrs.fr/ 27, rue Paul Bert 94204 Ivry-sur-Seine, France T?l. 33 (0) 1 49 60 40 10 - Fax 33 (0) 1 45 21 94 19 Quatri?me Journ?e ?Monde Indien?, 25 mai 2009 Matin?e 10h15 Philip Huyse (EPHE, Directeur de l?UMR ?Mondes iranien et indien?) Pr?sentation des activit?s de Mondes iranien et indien en 2008 10h30 Phaedra Bouvet (Doctorante, Paris X-Nanterre) Le cas des c?ramiques indiennes et indianisantes du site arch?ologique de Khao Sam Kaeo (Tha?lande p?ninsulaire) - 4?-2? s. av. J.-C. 11h00 Iran Farkondeh (Doctorante, Paris III) Les femmes dans le Kath?sarits?gara 11h 30 Pause caf? 12h00 Ingo Strauch (Freie Universiteit Berlin) The Bajaur Collection of Kharosth? manuscripts: Studies in Buddhist G?ndh?r? literature 12h30 Marie-Luce Barazer-Billoret (Ma?tre de conf?rences, Paris III) Le shiva?sme ?gamique : travaux r?cents et projets 13h00-14h30 D?jeuner libre Apr?s-midi 14h30 J?r?me Petit (Biblioth?que nationale de France, Doctorant, Paris III) Les rouages du commerce dans l?Inde du 17?me si?cle ? travers les m?moires d?un marchand jaina 15h00 Emmanuel Francis (Doctorant, Universit? Catholique de Louvain, Louvain-la-Neuve) Symboles de richesse aux portes de sanctuaires du pays tamoul 15h30 Anne Casile (Doctorante, Paris III) Lectures du paysage arch?ologique de Badoh-Pathari en Inde centrale (5e-13e si?cle) 16 h Collation From xadxura at GMAIL.COM Wed May 13 19:07:53 2009 From: xadxura at GMAIL.COM (Andrew Glass) Date: Wed, 13 May 09 12:07:53 -0700 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: <6261D325-D9AF-45E0-8B65-F23620D8EAF8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227086174.23782.1841047512278703023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This situation has not improved with CS4. Andrew From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed May 13 16:40:09 2009 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Wed, 13 May 09 12:40:09 -0400 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? Message-ID: <161227086169.23782.12444951921716780460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings, I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe InDesign (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a Unicode font that will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in InDesign. Does anyone know of any such font that will do so (free or otherwise)? Thanks, Paul Hackett Columbia University From adheesh at OCF.BERKELEY.EDU Thu May 14 00:52:04 2009 From: adheesh at OCF.BERKELEY.EDU (Adheesh Sathaye) Date: Wed, 13 May 09 17:52:04 -0700 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: <6261D325-D9AF-45E0-8B65-F23620D8EAF8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227086181.23782.8769190268769579151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wonder if anyone has had any success with the newly released "World Ready Composer" plugin for CS4 (ME edition) on the Mac? Info about it is available here: http://www.thomasphinney.com/tag/world-ready-composer/ , which I discovered from an article on the reliable "Multilingual Mac" blog: http://m10lmac.blogspot.com/2009/02/adobe-app-language-improvements.html I would be interested to know if anyone has had the opportunity to try out what might be a positive new development in this front? Also, has anyone else noticed that Devanagari rendering appears to work in Powerpoint 2008 (for Mac) but not the rest of the Office 2008 suite? Perhaps also a positive step from Microsoft? All best wishes, Adheesh ---- Adheesh Sathaye Department of Asian Studies University of British Columbia On May 13, 2009, at 10:56 AM, alessandro graheli wrote: > Dear Paul, > > it seems an impossible task. InDesign, at least upto CS3, is known > for not providing support for Indic scripts. I?ve read there is some > plugin to use OpenType Devanagari fonts on Windows, but not for Mac. > On OSX there is an additional, mighty problem with Unicode > Devanagari: the otherwise excellent built-in engine which manages > ligatures and vowel-signs of Indic scripts works only with AAT > (Apple Advanced Typography) fonts, such as Devanagari Monotype which > comes with OSX. The Windows universe mostly uses OpenType Devanagari > fonts. To put it simply, unlike with Latin and other Unicode ranges, > when one tries to convert files from Windows to Mac or viceversa, he > will get a mess with ligatures and vowel-signs, because of the > different engines and because of the different intrinsic features of > the fonts. > > Specifically, Truetype fonts which run on Mac OSX, Devanagari MT > included, manage variants such as ligatures and old type numbers > through AAT (Advanced Apple Typography) tables, which need to be > read and applied by the software that uses the font, both in source > and output. InDesign will ignore some of these features and will > handle only the basic Unicode characters. Unicode charts, in fact, > prescribe only the encoding for the basic alphabetic characters, > while variations of glyphs such as ligatures are handled by such > tables which lay deep in the font structure. A problem with AAT > tables is that there is hardly any documentation available and to > access them, not to speak of modifying them, so improving such fonts > seems rather problematic. Conversely native OSX software such as > TextEdit, for instance, handles all the AAT tables and thus renders > ligatures properly. > > Hope it helps, > > Alessandro Graheli > Rome, Italy > > Il giorno 13/mag/09, alle ore 18:40, Paul G. Hackett ha scritto: > > Greetings, > > I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe > InDesign (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a > Unicode font that will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in > InDesign. Does anyone know of any such font that will do so (free > or otherwise)? > > Thanks, > > Paul Hackett > Columbia University > From a.graheli at GMAIL.COM Wed May 13 17:56:57 2009 From: a.graheli at GMAIL.COM (alessandro graheli) Date: Wed, 13 May 09 19:56:57 +0200 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086171.23782.12810836169567480284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Paul, it seems an impossible task. InDesign, at least upto CS3, is known for not providing support for Indic scripts. I?ve read there is some plugin to use OpenType Devanagari fonts on Windows, but not for Mac. On OSX there is an additional, mighty problem with Unicode Devanagari: the otherwise excellent built-in engine which manages ligatures and vowel-signs of Indic scripts works only with AAT (Apple Advanced Typography) fonts, such as Devanagari Monotype which comes with OSX. The Windows universe mostly uses OpenType Devanagari fonts. To put it simply, unlike with Latin and other Unicode ranges, when one tries to convert files from Windows to Mac or viceversa, he will get a mess with ligatures and vowel-signs, because of the different engines and because of the different intrinsic features of the fonts. Specifically, Truetype fonts which run on Mac OSX, Devanagari MT included, manage variants such as ligatures and old type numbers through AAT (Advanced Apple Typography) tables, which need to be read and applied by the software that uses the font, both in source and output. InDesign will ignore some of these features and will handle only the basic Unicode characters. Unicode charts, in fact, prescribe only the encoding for the basic alphabetic characters, while variations of glyphs such as ligatures are handled by such tables which lay deep in the font structure. A problem with AAT tables is that there is hardly any documentation available and to access them, not to speak of modifying them, so improving such fonts seems rather problematic. Conversely native OSX software such as TextEdit, for instance, handles all the AAT tables and thus renders ligatures properly. Hope it helps, Alessandro Graheli Rome, Italy Il giorno 13/mag/09, alle ore 18:40, Paul G. Hackett ha scritto: Greetings, I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe InDesign (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a Unicode font that will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in InDesign. Does anyone know of any such font that will do so (free or otherwise)? Thanks, Paul Hackett Columbia University From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Wed May 13 23:25:33 2009 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Thu, 14 May 09 01:25:33 +0200 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086178.23782.14497103351954817812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande had guided me through using the Devanagari QWERTY keyboard under the International input option on the Mac (see System Preferences). Then selecting the Arial Unicode MS. This works perfectly well in NeoOffice, with all the ligatures required by typing an "f" after the relevant letter, then the next letter. Aspirated letters come from shift, plus the letter, initial vowels from alt-letter, etc. The alt-letter combo provides the retroflexes as well. ? from z ? from x ??? from alt s ? from shift s ? from shift n ? from alt n ? from . ? from alt ' for instance ???????: ???????: etc. not sure whether this will work in your Adobe program. ?????: James Hartzell On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Paul G. Hackett wrote: > Greetings, > > I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe InDesign > (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a Unicode font that > will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in InDesign. Does anyone know > of any such font that will do so (free or otherwise)? > > Thanks, > > Paul Hackett > Columbia University > From sellmers at GMX.DE Thu May 14 07:09:04 2009 From: sellmers at GMX.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Thu, 14 May 09 09:09:04 +0200 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086184.23782.9279333004515059530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Unfortunately, not all ligatures seem to work in this way: for example -Gg- (as in gaGgA) appears (both in NeoOffice and in Mail) as G+vir?ma +g (?????). This ligature I, for one, can only generate in TextEdit by enabling "All ligatures". Or is there any way to get around this problem? Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl Am 14.05.2009 um 01:25 schrieb James Hartzell: > Madhav Deshpande had guided me through using the Devanagari QWERTY > keyboard > under the International input option on the Mac (see System > Preferences). > Then selecting the Arial Unicode MS. This works perfectly well in > NeoOffice, with all the ligatures required by typing an "f" after the > relevant letter, then the next letter. Aspirated letters come from > shift, > plus the letter, initial vowels from alt-letter, etc. The alt- > letter combo > provides the retroflexes as well. > ? from z > ? from x > ??? from alt s > ? from shift s > ? from shift n > ? from alt n > ? from . > ? from alt ' > > for instance > ???????: > ???????: etc. > not sure whether this will work in your Adobe program. > > ?????: > James Hartzell > > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Paul G. Hackett > wrote: > >> Greetings, >> >> I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe >> InDesign >> (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a Unicode >> font that >> will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in InDesign. Does >> anyone know >> of any such font that will do so (free or otherwise)? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Paul Hackett >> Columbia University >> From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Thu May 14 09:36:37 2009 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Thu, 14 May 09 11:36:37 +0200 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086186.23782.2587380374670903555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sven I see that you're correct for ?????; I don't know how to get around this particular problem. Cheers James On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Sven Sellmer wrote: > Unfortunately, not all ligatures seem to work in this way: for example -Gg- > (as in gaGgA) appears (both in NeoOffice and in Mail) as G+vir?ma+g (?????). > This ligature I, for one, can only generate in TextEdit by enabling "All > ligatures". Or is there any way to get around this problem? > Best wishes, > Sven Sellmer > > ************************************ > Dr. Sven Sellmer > Adam Mickiewicz University > Institute of Oriental Studies > South Asia Unit > ul. 28 czerwca 1956 nr 198 > 61-485 Pozna? > POLAND > sven at amu.edu.pl > > Am 14.05.2009 um 01:25 schrieb James Hartzell: > > > Madhav Deshpande had guided me through using the Devanagari QWERTY >> keyboard >> under the International input option on the Mac (see System Preferences). >> Then selecting the Arial Unicode MS. This works perfectly well in >> NeoOffice, with all the ligatures required by typing an "f" after the >> relevant letter, then the next letter. Aspirated letters come from shift, >> plus the letter, initial vowels from alt-letter, etc. The alt-letter >> combo >> provides the retroflexes as well. >> ? from z >> ? from x >> ??? from alt s >> ? from shift s >> ? from shift n >> ? from alt n >> ? from . >> ? from alt ' >> >> for instance >> ???????: >> ???????: etc. >> not sure whether this will work in your Adobe program. >> >> ?????: >> James Hartzell >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Paul G. Hackett > >wrote: >> >> Greetings, >>> >>> I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe InDesign >>> (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a Unicode font that >>> will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in InDesign. Does anyone >>> know >>> of any such font that will do so (free or otherwise)? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Paul Hackett >>> Columbia University >>> >>> From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Thu May 14 12:27:43 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 May 09 13:27:43 +0100 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086190.23782.14182223252242604554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How things have moved on! I routinely read email with Alpine (successor to Pine), a character-based email client. Yet I see all the N?gar? below perfectly well (and romanized Sa?sk?ta goes without saying). What a relief after all those years of saMskRta etc. Dominik On Thu, 14 May 2009, James Hartzell wrote: > Madhav Deshpande had guided me through using the Devanagari QWERTY keyboard > under the International input option on the Mac (see System Preferences). > Then selecting the Arial Unicode MS. This works perfectly well in > NeoOffice, with all the ligatures required by typing an "f" after the > relevant letter, then the next letter. Aspirated letters come from shift, > plus the letter, initial vowels from alt-letter, etc. The alt-letter combo > provides the retroflexes as well. > ? from z > ? from x > ??? from alt s > ? from shift s > ? from shift n > ? from alt n > ? from . > ? from alt ' > > for instance > ???????: > ???????: etc. > not sure whether this will work in your Adobe program. > > ?????: > James Hartzell > > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Paul G. Hackett wrote: > >> Greetings, >> >> I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe InDesign >> (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a Unicode font that >> will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in InDesign. Does anyone know >> of any such font that will do so (free or otherwise)? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Paul Hackett >> Columbia University >> > From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Thu May 14 14:45:41 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 May 09 15:45:41 +0100 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086194.23782.4409053449826642508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems that Scribus, a free competitor for InDesign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scribus), doesn't do Indic fonts (i.e., "complex script rendering") either yet (http://wiki.scribus.net/index.php/Image:Rendering1.png). DW On Wed, 13 May 2009, Paul G. Hackett wrote: > Greetings, > > I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe InDesign > (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a Unicode font that > will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in InDesign. Does anyone know > of any such font that will do so (free or otherwise)? > > Thanks, > > Paul Hackett > Columbia University > From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Fri May 15 09:18:10 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 15 May 09 11:18:10 +0200 Subject: Ancient Aramaic Documents from Bactria : published or not ? Message-ID: <161227086197.23782.7425923131288592099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues Is this long-waited book now published and available or still not ? Christophe Vielle Title: Ancient Aramaic Documents From Bactria: 4th Century B.c.e. Author: Joseph Naveh, Shaul Shaked ISBN 1874780749 ISBN-13 9781874780748 Binding: Hardcover Publisher: Khalili Collections Number of Pages: 224 Language: English First publication of a group of thirty documents on leather in Imperial Aramaic, dating to the fourth century B.C.E. and reflecting the practice of the Achaemenian administration in Bactria and Sogdiana. Eighteen inscribed wooden sticks, for use as tallies, dated to the third year of King Darius Ill, are also included. They are considered to be the second most important discovery of its type known. Two of the leather documents relate to the fall of the Persian Empire: one mentions Bessus, the usurper of the Persian throne, travelling to Warnu (Greek Aornos); the other is a long list of supplies in the year 7 of King Alexander. In addition to their valuable historical contents, the documents enrich our knowledge of Aramaic and its lexicon. The documents are given in Aramaic with translation, introduction, commentary and glossary. The volume is lavishly illustrated. http://www.khalili.org/research-ic-aramaic.html ["2005"] http://www.flipkart.com/ancient-aramaic-documents-bactria-joseph/1874780749-00x3fu4q4c ["Publishing Date: 01-2008"] http://www.infibeam.com/Books/info/Joseph-Naveh/Ancient-Aramaic-Documents-from-Bactria-4th-Century/1874780749.html http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ancient-Aramaic-Documents-Bactria-Collection/dp/1874780749 ["This title has not yet been released. You may pre-order it now and we will deliver it to you when it arrives - Publisher: Khalili Collections (18 Dec 2009)"] >>Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:55:03 +0200 >>From: Steve Farmer >>Subject: [Indo-Eurasia] Update: Ancient Aramaic Documents from Bactria >> >> >>Dear List, >> >>Back in 2005 we discussed on the List the recent finds of >>Achaemenid-era Aramaic texts from Bactria -- really critical to >>understanding the spread of writing to Central Asia and, presumably, to >>NW India as well. >> >>The manuscripts in the collection were to be edited by Joseph Naveh and >>Shaul Shaked, and were announced in a tantalizing pr?cis by Shaked that >>came out in 2004: >> Shaul Shaked, Le satrape de Bactriane et son gouverneur: Documents aram?ens du IVe s. avant notre ?re provenant de Bactriane. Conf?rences donn?es au Coll?ge de France 14 et 21 mai 2003 (Persika, 4), Paris: De Boccard, 2004. 62 pp. ISBN 2 7018 0170 2. >> >> >>Some description of this little booklet (only 62 pages long) at [updated]: >> >>http://abstractairanica.revues.org/document5779.html >> https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/3201/ >>I wrote to Shaul Shaked in early 2005 and asked when the edition would >>come out. He wrote that it would be out that Fall, and I've tried to >>buy it periodically ever since. This morning, however, I ran into >>the following notice that says that it is not planned now to be >>published until 2008: >> >>http://tinyurl.com/y8ap3l [lost] >> >>Michael and I have both read Shaked's pr?cis, which includes quotations >>from the texts that have a number of oddities in them. The texts also >>contain direct references to Alexander the Great and Bessus, the >>supposed murderer of Darius III, which makes one a bit curious.... >> >>Anyway, I thought I'd give an update on the text. If anyone is in >>contact with Shaul Shaked at present and has more up-to-date >>information on the release of the book, please let us know! >> >>Steve >> > >-- > > >http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 15 17:01:43 2009 From: fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Fri, 15 May 09 12:01:43 -0500 Subject: Ancient Aramaic Documents from Bactria : published or not ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086204.23782.1728132239763027980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Christophe Vielle, As I have myself recently search for this book unsuccessfully, my guess is that it has not yet come out. I have, however, cross-posted your query to the Indo-Eurasian list of which prof. Shaked is a member. I will let the list here know how he responds. Best Wishes, Benjamin -- Benjamin Fleming Mellon Post-doctoral Fellow, Dept. of Religious Studies University of Pennsylvania 249 S. 36th Street; Claudia Cohen Hall, #234 Philadelphia, PA 19104 U.S.A. Telephone - 215-746-7792 > Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 11:18:10 +0200 > From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE > Subject: Ancient Aramaic Documents from Bactria : published or not ? > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Dear Colleagues > > Is this long-waited book now published and available or still not ? > > Christophe Vielle > > Title: Ancient Aramaic Documents From Bactria: 4th Century B.c.e. > Author: Joseph Naveh, Shaul Shaked > ISBN 1874780749 > ISBN-13 9781874780748 > Binding: Hardcover > Publisher: Khalili Collections > Number of Pages: 224 > Language: English > > First publication of a group of thirty documents > on leather in Imperial Aramaic, dating to the > fourth century B.C.E. and reflecting the practice > of the Achaemenian administration in Bactria and > Sogdiana. Eighteen inscribed wooden sticks, for > use as tallies, dated to the third year of King > Darius Ill, are also included. They are > considered to be the second most important > discovery of its type known. > Two of the leather documents relate to the fall > of the Persian Empire: one mentions Bessus, the > usurper of the Persian throne, travelling to > Warnu (Greek Aornos); the other is a long list of > supplies in the year 7 of King Alexander. In > addition to their valuable historical contents, > the documents enrich our knowledge of Aramaic and > its lexicon. The documents are given in Aramaic > with translation, introduction, commentary and > glossary. The volume is lavishly illustrated. _________________________________________________________________ Create a cool, new character for your Windows Live? Messenger. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9656621 From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Fri May 15 10:42:00 2009 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 15 May 09 12:42:00 +0200 Subject: Intensive Course in Vedic Grammar and Syntax Message-ID: <161227086201.23782.11186845999072626272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indian Summer in Halle ? Intensive Course in Vedic Grammar and Syntax Dear Colleagues, We are pleased to announce that an Intensive Course in Vedic Grammar and Syntax will be held at the Indology Department of Martin Luther University Halle (Saale) from September 14th to 25th, 2009. The course, comprising an introduction into Vedic grammar and syntax as well as the reading of Vedic hymns and prose, will be taught by Werner Knobl (Kyoto). The medium of teaching will be German. All those interested in the course are most welcome and kindly asked to register by July 1st. Details are available on our website: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/veda.htm See also http:// www.indologie.uni-halle.de Please do pass on this message to anyone possibly interested. Yours sincerely, Annette Schmiedchen / Katrin Einicke annette.schmiedchen at indologie.uni-halle.de katrin.einicke at indologie.uni-halle.de ------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri May 15 17:35:46 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Fri, 15 May 09 13:35:46 -0400 Subject: Syntax of Dative Message-ID: <161227086208.23782.15088289086997852201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues I am looking for some scholarly discussion on the use of datives with verbs like vidmahe and dh?mahi found in the late G?yatr?s as found in texts like the Taittir?iya Ara?yaka, e.g. ?????????? ??????? ???????? ????? / ????? ?????? ?????????? // The use of dative in these late G?yatr?s contrasts with the accusative in the old G?yatr? : ??? ?????????????? ????? ?????? ?????. I am looking for any scholarly discussion of this shift (?). Didn't see anything in Speyer/Speijer. Best, Madhav M. Deshpande From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK Fri May 15 20:28:27 2009 From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox) Date: Fri, 15 May 09 21:28:27 +0100 Subject: Cambridge 22-23 May: Bilingual Discourse and Cross-Cultural Fertilisation: Tamil and Sanskrit in Mediaeval India Message-ID: <161227086211.23782.14402960422034528817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, On behalf of Vincenzo Vergiani and myself, I'd like to cordially invite any and all of you who maybe in SE England next week to attend the workshop we are jointly convening, Bilingual Discourse and Cross-Cultural Fertilisation: Tamil and Sanskrit in Mediaeval India. The workshop website can be found at the following URL, and I attach a schedule of presentations below, http://www.ames.cam.ac.uk/news_events/sanskrit-tamil-mediaeval-india.htm All the best, Whitney Cox Friday 22 May: 9:00-9:30 Coffee, welcoming and opening remarks Session 1 (Dominic GOODALL, chair) 9:30-10:00 Eva WILDEN ?Ten Stages of Love (da?a k?m?vasth??) and Eight Types of Marriage (a??aviv?ha) in the Tolk?ppiyam? 10:00-10:30 Whitney COX ?Meypp??u and na?avil nilai in I?amp?ra?ar: from source-criticism to intellectual history? 10:30-11:00 Hermann TIEKEN ?Early Tamil poetics between N??ya??stra and R?gam?l?? 11:00-11:45 Discussion Lunch (12:00-1:30) Session 2 (Vincenzo VERGIANI, chair) 1:30-2:00 Takanobu TAKAHASHI ?Is clearing or plowing equal to killing? Tamil culture and the spread of Jainism in Tamilnadu? 2:00-2:30 K. Nachimuthu ?Negotiating Tamil-Sanskrit Contacts: Engagements by Tamil Grammarians? 2:30-3:00 Charlotte SCHMID (read by Dominic GOODALL) ?The contribution of Tamil literature to K???a?s figure in Sanskrit texts: the case of the ka??u in Cilappatik?ram 17? 3:00-3:30 Discussion Coffee (3:30-4:00) Session 3 (Daud ALI, chair) 4:00-4:30 Timothy LUBIN ?Legal Diglossia in Medieval Tamilnadu? 4:30-5:00 Emmanuel FRANCIS ?The Praise of the King in Tamil and Sanskrit during the Pallava Period? 5:00-5:30 Leslie ORR ?Words for Worship: Tamil and Sanskrit in Medieval Temple Inscriptions? 5:30-6:15 Discussion Saturday 23 May Coffee (9:00-9:30 ) Session 4 (Eivind KAHRS, chair) 9:30-10:00 Vincenzo VERGIANI ?The adoption of Bhart?hari?s classification of karman in C???varaiyar?s commentary on the Tolk?ppiyam? 10:00-10:30 Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD ?The ?a? pratyaya in V?rac??iyam and Y?pparu?kalavirutti and their sources: a tentative chronology? 10:30-11:00 V. S. RAJAM ?Mapping and Integrating Traditions Through Poetry and Grammar? 11:00-11:45 Discussion Lunch (12:00-1:30) Session 5 (Whitney COX, chair) 1:30-2:00 David SHULMAN ?A (Sanskrit?) Theory of the Imagination from Sixteenth-century Senji? 2:00-2:30 Rich FREEMAN ?Caught in Translation: Kerala Ma?iprav?lam, from Tamil through Sanskrit? 2:30-3:00 Discussion Coffee (3:00-3:30) Roundtable (David WASHBROOK, chair, 3:30-6:00) B. D. CHATTOPADHYAYA A. R. VENKATACHALAPATHY Eivind KAHRS Dominic GOODALL 6:00 Concluding remarks -- Dr. Whitney Cox Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia, School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London WC1H 0XG From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Fri May 15 23:49:31 2009 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sat, 16 May 09 01:49:31 +0200 Subject: Syntax of Dative In-Reply-To: <3AF9B038A6B07641B36C799ED4EBB0D70466E1BB42@ITCS-ECLS-1-VS3.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227086214.23782.3040427130044206811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Madhav, Whether shift or variation, assuming you have seen Delbr?ck Altindische Syntax, Speyer Sanskrit Syntax and Speyer Vedic Syntax, I think that the following two publications might be useful (even though they focus on the Vedic dative they refer to cases beyond Vedic as well): E.W. Hopkins The Vedic Dative Reconsidered in Transactions and Proc. of the Am. Phil. Ass. vol. 37 (1937): 87-120; J. Gonda The Unity of the Vedic Dative (with ref. to discussions by Debrunner, Whitney, Renou etc.) repr. in Selected Studies vol. on Indo-European Linguistics, 141ff. Also useful may be Oberlies' Grammar of Epic Sanskrit p. 331f and Brockington The Sanskrit Epics p. 87f. The main shift may have been not so much in the use of the dative but in the interpretation of dhiimahi as form of dhii (cf. Whitney's misplaced judgment in his Roots ... p. 83 which nevertheless captures the shift involved: "The form dhiimahi belongs here [under dhii/diidhii] only as thus used later, with a false apprehension of its proper meaning.") Jan On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 7:35 PM, Deshpande, Madhav wrote: > Dear Colleagues > > I am looking for some scholarly discussion on the use of datives with verbs > like vidmahe and dh?mahi found in the late G?yatr?s as found in texts like > the Taittir?iya Ara?yaka, e.g. ?????????? ??????? ???????? ????? / ????? > ?????? ?????????? // The use of dative in these late G?yatr?s contrasts > with the accusative in the old G?yatr? : ??? ?????????????? ????? ?????? > ?????. I am looking for any scholarly discussion of this shift (?). Didn't > see anything in Speyer/Speijer. Best, > > Madhav M. Deshpande > -- Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP, A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. JEMHouben at gmail.com www.jyotistoma.nl From slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU Sat May 16 10:56:27 2009 From: slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU (Steven Lindquist) Date: Sat, 16 May 09 05:56:27 -0500 Subject: amrita In-Reply-To: <000001c9d60a$9cabc690$d60353b0$@nl> Message-ID: <161227086224.23782.834460480673927586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Victor, On "immortality," see Olivelle's "Am?t?: Women and Indian Technologies of Immortality," Journal of Indian Philosophy. 25: 427? 49, 1997. Free download at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/olivelle/articles.htm See esp. Thieme's "Ambrosia" (cited within). My best, Steven On May 16, 2009, at 4:42 AM, victor van bijlert wrote: > Dear friends, > > I remember vaguely to have learned that in Vedic Sanskrit the word > amrita > does not mean immortality but rather something like ' long life'. > Can anyone > provide me with some references to articles on this word? I am also > looking > for parallels in other Vedic texts of the so-called Purusha-sukta > (Rig Veda > 10.90).Or perhaps adaptations of this hymn in later Sanskrit > literature: > Epics, Puranas. > > With many greetings and many thanks > > Victor van Bijlert From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Sat May 16 11:26:52 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 16 May 09 07:26:52 -0400 Subject: amrita In-Reply-To: <6E8EE938-B078-43F9-AA1A-A67DF300089E@mail.smu.edu> Message-ID: <161227086232.23782.7713834755595811398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, The Thieme article is found in his *Studien zur indogermanischen Wortkunde und Religionsgeschichte* [Berichte ueber die Verhandlkungen der Saechsischen Akad. d. Wissenschaften zu Leipzig. Phil.-Hist. Klasse, Band 98, Heft 5] 1952. It is reprinted in the Weg d. Forschung series Band CLXIX 1970 [Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft]. The article does not deny that amrta can mean 'immortal.' It argues that it can also mean 'having, giving life' ['lebendig, Lebenskraft spendend'], citing many Vedic passages. I hope this helps. George Thompson Steven Lindquist wrote: > Dear Victor, > > On "immortality," see Olivelle's "Am?t?: Women and Indian > Technologies of Immortality," Journal of Indian Philosophy. 25: 427? > 49, 1997. Free download at: > http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/olivelle/articles.htm See esp. > Thieme's "Ambrosia" (cited within). > > My best, > > Steven > > On May 16, 2009, at 4:42 AM, victor van bijlert wrote: > >> Dear friends, >> >> I remember vaguely to have learned that in Vedic Sanskrit the word >> amrita >> does not mean immortality but rather something like ' long life'. >> Can anyone >> provide me with some references to articles on this word? I am also >> looking >> for parallels in other Vedic texts of the so-called Purusha-sukta >> (Rig Veda >> 10.90).Or perhaps adaptations of this hymn in later Sanskrit >> literature: >> Epics, Puranas. >> >> With many greetings and many thanks >> >> Victor van Bijlert > > > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Sat May 16 09:42:22 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van bijlert) Date: Sat, 16 May 09 11:42:22 +0200 Subject: amrita Message-ID: <161227086217.23782.1316946837948814433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends, I remember vaguely to have learned that in Vedic Sanskrit the word amrita does not mean immortality but rather something like ' long life'. Can anyone provide me with some references to articles on this word? I am also looking for parallels in other Vedic texts of the so-called Purusha-sukta (Rig Veda 10.90).Or perhaps adaptations of this hymn in later Sanskrit literature: Epics, Puranas. With many greetings and many thanks Victor van Bijlert From j.jurewicz at UW.EDU.PL Sat May 16 11:20:38 2009 From: j.jurewicz at UW.EDU.PL (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Sat, 16 May 09 13:20:38 +0200 Subject: amrita In-Reply-To: <000001c9d60a$9cabc690$d60353b0$@nl> Message-ID: <161227086229.23782.3664651629139327999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two Atharvavedic hymns, 10.2 and 11.8 elaborate the homology between the human body and the cosmos (see e.g. F. Edgerton, The Beginnings of Indian Philosophy, London, George Allen & Unwin Ltd, 1965, pp. 88, 107). Best Joanna Jurewicz victor van bijlert pisze: > Dear friends, > > I remember vaguely to have learned that in Vedic Sanskrit the word amrita > does not mean immortality but rather something like ' long life'. Can anyone > provide me with some references to articles on this word? I am also looking > for parallels in other Vedic texts of the so-called Purusha-sukta (Rig Veda > 10.90).Or perhaps adaptations of this hymn in later Sanskrit literature: > Epics, Puranas. > > With many greetings and many thanks > > Victor van Bijlert > -- Joanna Jurewicz, dr hab. Warsaw University Professor Faculty of Oriental Studies ul. Krakowskie Przedmiescie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa Poland From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Sat May 16 18:49:49 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 16 May 09 14:49:49 -0400 Subject: Syntax of Dative In-Reply-To: <3AF9B038A6B07641B36C799ED4EBB0D70466E1BB42@ITCS-ECLS-1-VS3.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227086236.23782.8744721052657717908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Madhav, My first impulse was to see the influence of the frequent collocation of namas + god-name in the dative. I see now that Delbrueck discusses namas, as well as other formulas of respect or invocation, such as svaahaa, svadhaa, vaSaT [p. 145 "Dativ bei Substantiven"] (sorry for using the now obsolete Harvard-Kyoto here, but for me the trouble to get the correct diacritics into an email is still too great). dhaa- in the sense 'to offer, lend' frequently takes the dative, of course. As for dhiimahi, the 'later tradition' which takes it from dhii- instead of dhaa- is I think triggered by the RV Gayatri itself, since dhiimahi is immediately followed by dhiyas there. I take this to be a pun in the mind of the Rsi, rather than an etymology. When the Gayatri is quoted in the TS 1.5.3, Keith prefers to translate dhiimahi as "we meditate" ['in the later priestly sense']. If he is right in doing so, then this quotation may indicate that the etymological sense of dhiimahi from dhaa- may already be lost. As for the dative with other verbs, vid- is cited by Delbrueck (umlauts are also too time-consuming) as taking a dative when it has a sense 'to provide for' [thus semantically close to 'give']. I hope this helps, and I also would be interested to hear from others. George Deshpande, Madhav wrote: >Dear Colleagues > >I am looking for some scholarly discussion on the use of datives with verbs like vidmahe and dh?mahi found in the late G?yatr?s as found in texts like the Taittir?iya Ara?yaka, e.g. ?????????? ??????? ???????? ????? / ????? ?????? ?????????? // The use of dative in these late G?yatr?s contrasts with the accusative in the old G?yatr? : ??? ?????????????? ????? ?????? ?????. I am looking for any scholarly discussion of this shift (?). Didn't see anything in Speyer/Speijer. Best, > >Madhav M. Deshpande > > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sat May 16 10:22:03 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 16 May 09 15:52:03 +0530 Subject: amrita Message-ID: <161227086221.23782.9348960077591963780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Bijlert, It will take time to search so that,in a hurry,I?can give just a hint that you may yourself check. In the hymns to the fathers, AV?.18 (AVP.18.56-82)it is prayed that the departed one is placed in am.rtatva. Since long life is absurd here the intended meaning seems to be 'immortality'. The text of the Asiatic Society?AVP version of the hymns to the fathers has been printed but at present is in fascicules. It will come out in no time when I furnish them with an Introduction. I am in it. Best DB --- On Sat, 16/5/09, victor van bijlert wrote: From: victor van bijlert Subject: amrita To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Saturday, 16 May, 2009, 3:12 PM Dear friends, I remember vaguely to have learned that in Vedic Sanskrit the word amrita does not mean immortality but rather something like ' long life'. Can anyone provide me with some references to articles on this word? I am also looking for parallels in other Vedic texts of the so-called Purusha-sukta (Rig Veda 10.90).Or perhaps adaptations of this hymn in later Sanskrit literature: Epics, Puranas. With many greetings and many thanks Victor van Bijlert Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun May 17 14:28:10 2009 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Sun, 17 May 09 07:28:10 -0700 Subject: Sardulavikridita metrics In-Reply-To: <1528222A-4382-420F-822D-00509A2B1A32@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086249.23782.1882437310720919043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ictus on syllables 3, 6, 8, 12, 14, 17, 19 --- you can hear a brief example of the traditional way it is recited at http:// pantheon.yale.edu/~asd49/sound/ For the theory, see Ashwini Deo, The metrical organization of classical Sanskrit verse, Journal of Linguistics 43.63-114 (2007). This is really essential reading for anyone interested in Sanskrit metrics. On Deo's analysis, ??rd?lavikr??ita is one of the rhythmically most complex and interesting meters (p. 109). Like some other popular meters, such as Mand?kr?nt?, it has seven feet that shift from tetramoraic to pentamoraic at the caesura, with the final foot catalectic, in addition (unlike Mand?kr?nt?) also anacrusis in the first foot. Paul Kiparsky On May 17, 2009, at 4:10 AM, Michael Slouber wrote: > Dear Indology list members, > > Is there more to know about the ??rd?lavikr??ita meter than > ma-sa-ja-sa-ta-ta-ga (12-7 x 4 lines)? Are any vipulas allowed? > In a manuscript I am working on I have a verse with 5 lines in > ??rd?lavikr??ita. Is this common? (I have never seen it > before) If there is a resource with extended discussion of this > meter can you direct me to it? > > Sincerely, > > Michael Slouber > PhD Candidate > South and Southeast Asian Studies > UC Berkeley From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Sun May 17 11:20:21 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van bijlert) Date: Sun, 17 May 09 13:20:21 +0200 Subject: amrita In-Reply-To: <000001c9d60a$9cabc690$d60353b0$@nl> Message-ID: <161227086243.23782.6189927579299034316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> So far many thanks for the references. They were very helpful. One last question. Does anyone know about digital versions of the Thieme article? Many thanks again and warm greetings Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens victor van bijlert Verzonden: zaterdag 16 mei 2009 11:42 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: amrita Dear friends, I remember vaguely to have learned that in Vedic Sanskrit the word amrita does not mean immortality but rather something like ' long life'. Can anyone provide me with some references to articles on this word? I am also looking for parallels in other Vedic texts of the so-called Purusha-sukta (Rig Veda 10.90).Or perhaps adaptations of this hymn in later Sanskrit literature: Epics, Puranas. With many greetings and many thanks Victor van Bijlert From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Sun May 17 12:21:15 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van bijlert) Date: Sun, 17 May 09 14:21:15 +0200 Subject: amrita In-Reply-To: <000001c9d60a$9cabc690$d60353b0$@nl> Message-ID: <161227086246.23782.666761053948937502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends, As an extra favour I would like to ask the following. The Purusha-sukta mentions the four varnas, seemingly for the first time in the Rig Veda. Are there other references in the Rig Veda to the four varnas by name, or perhaps to any of these four separately? And what about the four varnas in the other Veda-Samhitas or the Brahmanas and Aranyakas? Thanks again Victor van Bijlert From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sun May 17 19:09:14 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Sun, 17 May 09 15:09:14 -0400 Subject: Syntax of Dative In-Reply-To: <4A0F0ACD.9020407@comcast.net> Message-ID: <161227086257.23782.15454150459133910195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to all those who sent suggestions on the syntax of dative with vidmahe and dh?mahi on and off this list. Madhav Deshpande ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of George Thompson [gthomgt at COMCAST.NET] Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:49 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Syntax of Dative Dear Madhav, My first impulse was to see the influence of the frequent collocation of namas + god-name in the dative. I see now that Delbrueck discusses namas, as well as other formulas of respect or invocation, such as svaahaa, svadhaa, vaSaT [p. 145 "Dativ bei Substantiven"] (sorry for using the now obsolete Harvard-Kyoto here, but for me the trouble to get the correct diacritics into an email is still too great). dhaa- in the sense 'to offer, lend' frequently takes the dative, of course. As for dhiimahi, the 'later tradition' which takes it from dhii- instead of dhaa- is I think triggered by the RV Gayatri itself, since dhiimahi is immediately followed by dhiyas there. I take this to be a pun in the mind of the Rsi, rather than an etymology. When the Gayatri is quoted in the TS 1.5.3, Keith prefers to translate dhiimahi as "we meditate" ['in the later priestly sense']. If he is right in doing so, then this quotation may indicate that the etymological sense of dhiimahi from dhaa- may already be lost. As for the dative with other verbs, vid- is cited by Delbrueck (umlauts are also too time-consuming) as taking a dative when it has a sense 'to provide for' [thus semantically close to 'give']. I hope this helps, and I also would be interested to hear from others. George Deshpande, Madhav wrote: >Dear Colleagues > >I am looking for some scholarly discussion on the use of datives with verbs like vidmahe and dh?mahi found in the late G?yatr?s as found in texts like the Taittir?iya Ara?yaka, e.g. ?????????? ??????? ???????? ????? / ????? ?????? ?????????? // The use of dative in these late G?yatr?s contrasts with the accusative in the old G?yatr? : ??? ?????????????? ????? ?????? ?????. I am looking for any scholarly discussion of this shift (?). Didn't see anything in Speyer/Speijer. Best, > >Madhav M. Deshpande > > From mjslouber at BERKELEY.EDU Sun May 17 11:10:50 2009 From: mjslouber at BERKELEY.EDU (Michael Slouber) Date: Sun, 17 May 09 16:55:50 +0545 Subject: Sardulavikridita metrics Message-ID: <161227086240.23782.10514295338321289500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology list members, Is there more to know about the ??rd?lavikr??ita meter than ma- sa-ja-sa-ta-ta-ga (12-7 x 4 lines)? Are any vipulas allowed? In a manuscript I am working on I have a verse with 5 lines in ??rd?lavikr??ita. Is this common? (I have never seen it before) If there is a resource with extended discussion of this meter can you direct me to it? Sincerely, Michael Slouber PhD Candidate South and Southeast Asian Studies UC Berkeley From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sun May 17 16:41:17 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 17 May 09 22:11:17 +0530 Subject: amrita Message-ID: <161227086254.23782.17859209918936470906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Arya-Sudra division is apparent even in the early part of the Rgveda but the four caste-system seems to have crystallised only in the late 10.90. Brahmins as a caste, Rajanyas, Vis's and Sudras are known to the AV. How far the occurrence of the terms reflect the existence of a rigid four caste system may be debated.??The other Vedas? know the four caste system. According to Kuiper ennobling was common with the early Rgvedic Aryans. That must not have been congenial for the growth of the rigid four caste system. This may be partly true of the early part of the Atharvaveda. These matters?require more search than that has been made. Best for all DB --- On Sun, 17/5/09, victor van bijlert wrote: From: victor van bijlert Subject: Re: amrita To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 17 May, 2009, 5:51 PM Dear friends, As an extra favour I would like to ask the following. The Purusha-sukta mentions the four varnas, seemingly for the first time in the Rig Veda. Are there other references in the Rig Veda to the four varnas by name, or perhaps to any of these four separately? And what about the four varnas in the other Veda-Samhitas or the Brahmanas and Aranyakas? Thanks again Victor van Bijlert Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 18 02:44:19 2009 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Mon, 18 May 09 02:44:19 +0000 Subject: Sardulavikridita metrics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086262.23782.4598912509533833632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is also important to note that there seems to be a strong tendency for placement of a ceasura after the fourth ga?a. The ma?gala in ?r?dhara's Karmapa?jik?, whose critical edition is currently being prepared by Dr. S. Sumant (Pune) and myself, also presents an unexpected number of ??rd?lavikr??ita p?das: just two of them, whereafter the verse-form seems to become something that is meant to be Sragdhar?. I would be grateful references to similarly (un)structured ma?galas. I paste below the text of ?r?dhara's ma?gala as we currently suppose it must be edited. Best greetings, Arlo Griffiths ---- ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???????? ???????????? ??????????? ????????????????? ? ???????????????????????? ???? ?????? ????????? ????????? ????? ?????????????????????????????? ? ????????????????????????????? ????????????????? ???????? ??????????????? ??????????? ??????? ???? ? ?????? ?????? ???????? ?????????? ????????? ????? ???????? ??????? ???? ??????????? ??????????? ????? ? ???????????? ???? ?????????????? ??????? ? ???????????? ??? ??????? ????????????? ? ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 07:28:10 -0700 > From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU > Subject: Re: Sardulavikridita metrics > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Ictus on syllables 3, 6, 8, 12, 14, 17, 19 --- you can hear a brief > example of the traditional way it is recited at http:// > pantheon.yale.edu/~asd49/sound/ > > For the theory, see Ashwini Deo, The metrical organization of > classical Sanskrit verse, Journal of Linguistics 43.63-114 (2007). > This is really essential reading for anyone interested in Sanskrit > metrics. > > On Deo's analysis, ??rd?lavikr??ita is one of the rhythmically > most complex and interesting meters (p. 109). Like some other > popular meters, such as Mand?kr?nt?, it has seven feet that shift > from tetramoraic to pentamoraic at the caesura, with the final foot > catalectic, in addition (unlike Mand?kr?nt?) also anacrusis in the > first foot. > > Paul Kiparsky > > > > > > > On May 17, 2009, at 4:10 AM, Michael Slouber wrote: > >> Dear Indology list members, >> >> Is there more to know about the ??rd?lavikr??ita meter than >> ma-sa-ja-sa-ta-ta-ga (12-7 x 4 lines)? Are any vipulas allowed? >> In a manuscript I am working on I have a verse with 5 lines in >> ??rd?lavikr??ita. Is this common? (I have never seen it >> before) If there is a resource with extended discussion of this >> meter can you direct me to it? >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Michael Slouber >> PhD Candidate >> South and Southeast Asian Studies >> UC Berkeley _________________________________________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon May 18 18:23:47 2009 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Mon, 18 May 09 11:23:47 -0700 Subject: Sardulavikridita metrics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086266.23782.7234120205606265404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On May 17, 2009, at 7:44 PM, Arlo Griffiths wrote: > > It is also important to note that there seems to be a strong > tendency for placement of a ceasura after the fourth ga?a. Right, after the fourth foot, which here happens to coincide with a ga?a. The ga?as of the trika system provide convenient mnemonics for the sequences of long and short syllables in a meter, but they are irrelevant to the rhythm of a line, to its foot structure, and to the placement of the caesura. These things are however revealed by formal metrical analysis, and, remarkably, they are also observed in the traditional chanting pattern. > The ma?gala in ?r?dhara's Karmapa?jik?, whose critical edition > is currently being prepared by Dr. S. Sumant (Pune) and myself, > also presents an unexpected number of ??rd?lavikr??ita p?das: > just two of them, whereafter the verse-form seems to become > something that is meant to be Sragdhar?. I would be grateful > references to similarly (un)structured ma?galas. I paste below the > text of ?r?dhara's ma?gala as we currently suppose it must be > edited. The alternation of ??rd?lavikr??ita with Sragdhar? makes sense because they have structural affinities. ??rd?lavikr??ita has seven rising feet, falling into two hemistichs divided by a caesura. The first hemistich has four tetramoraic feet (with anacrusis), the second has three pentamoraic feet (with catalexis). Mand?kr?nt? and Chitralekh? have the same 4:3 pattern of tetramoraic and pentamoraic feet, only the feet are falling rather than rising. Sragdhar? is similar except that it has an extra foot in the first hemistich (actually a problem for Deo's analysis, as she points out). Paul Kiparsky > Best greetings, > Arlo Griffiths > ---- > ????? ?? ???? ?????? > ????? ?????? ???? > ???????? > ???????????? > ??????????? > ????????????????? ? > ?????????????????????? > ?? ???? ?????? ????????? > ????????? ????? > ?????????????????????? > ???????? ? > ?????????????????????? > ??????? > ????????????????? > ???????? > ??????????????? > ??????????? ??????? > ???? ? > ?????? ?????? ???????? > ?????????? ????????? > ????? > ???????? ??????? ???? > ??????????? > ??????????? ????? ? > ???????????? ???? > ?????????????? ??????? ? > ???????????? ??? > ??????? ????????????? ? > > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 07:28:10 -0700 >> From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU >> Subject: Re: Sardulavikridita metrics >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> >> Ictus on syllables 3, 6, 8, 12, 14, 17, 19 --- you can hear a brief >> example of the traditional way it is recited at http:// >> pantheon.yale.edu/~asd49/sound/ >> >> For the theory, see Ashwini Deo, The metrical organization of >> classical Sanskrit verse, Journal of Linguistics 43.63-114 (2007). >> This is really essential reading for anyone interested in Sanskrit >> metrics. >> >> On Deo's analysis, ??rd?lavikr??ita is one of the rhythmically >> most complex and interesting meters (p. 109). Like some other >> popular meters, such as Mand?kr?nt?, it has seven feet that shift >> from tetramoraic to pentamoraic at the caesura, with the final foot >> catalectic, in addition (unlike Mand?kr?nt?) also anacrusis in the >> first foot. >> >> Paul Kiparsky >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 17, 2009, at 4:10 AM, Michael Slouber wrote: >> >>> Dear Indology list members, >>> >>> Is there more to know about the ??rd?lavikr??ita meter than >>> ma-sa-ja-sa-ta-ta-ga (12-7 x 4 lines)? Are any vipulas allowed? >>> In a manuscript I am working on I have a verse with 5 lines in >>> ??rd?lavikr??ita. Is this common? (I have never seen it >>> before) If there is a resource with extended discussion of this >>> meter can you direct me to it? >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Michael Slouber >>> PhD Candidate >>> South and Southeast Asian Studies >>> UC Berkeley > > _________________________________________________________________ > See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx From acollins at GCI.NET Mon May 18 23:01:22 2009 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Mon, 18 May 09 15:01:22 -0800 Subject: Image of goddess and anthill Message-ID: <161227086270.23782.9951738905347747701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is on behalf of the Archive for Research in Archetypal Symbolism (ARAS) who are looking for a high quality image to publish of an anthill associated with an Indian goddess image (I believe the goddess figure--made of mud?-- is often set in front of the anthill, which is painted in Goddess colors). I am aware that this is very old symbolism (Vedic NirRti is associated with the anthill, as I recall). If anyone is able to provide a good color photograph for publication (acknowledgement will be provided I am sure, but I don' think they can pay) I will pass it along, or you can correspond with Annmari Ronnberg directly at aras at aras.org. Background information on the image and provenance would be essential of course. Thanks, Al Collins From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Tue May 19 17:40:17 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 19 May 09 19:40:17 +0200 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! Message-ID: <161227086274.23782.15461564966119605813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, Apparently, the copy of Akota Bronzes by U P Shah supposedly purchased by our library never made it into the collection, and the library has been unable to replace it. Therefore, I wonder whether someone who has it to hand would be willing to scan just a page or two for me. In particular, I am interested in the bronze apparently found on pg. 34, plates 75a-b, and the author's reading of its inscription (actually, I am only interested in the inscription, not the piece itself :-) So a scan of the inscription, if legible, and the editor's reading and translation would be great--many thanks in advance! jonathan silk -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Wed May 20 10:42:33 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 06:42:33 -0400 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! Message-ID: <161227086288.23782.2548538507137859505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You could get in touch with the director, M. L. Wadekar, or the deputy director, S. Y. Wanankar, whose email addresses are: mlwadekar at hotmail.com, syw16 at rediffmail.com. Good wishes, George Cardona -----Original Message----- >From: Dipak Bhattacharya >Sent: May 20, 2009 12:08 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Re: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! > >Dear Professor Silk, >Other sources failing, perhaps, an enquiry could be made at the Oriental Institute, Baroda or Librarian, MS University, Baroda. They took interest in U.P.Shah. The email id of the Institute are not known to me. But there are List members who could know. >Best wishes >DB > >--- On Tue, 19/5/09, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > >From: Jonathan Silk >Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Date: Tuesday, 19 May, 2009, 11:10 PM > > >Friends, > >Apparently, the copy of Akota Bronzes by U P Shah supposedly purchased by >our library never made it into the collection, and the library has been >unable to replace it. Therefore, I wonder whether someone who has it to hand >would be willing to scan just a page or two for me. In particular, I am >interested in the bronze apparently found on pg. 34, plates 75a-b, and the >author's reading of its inscription (actually, I am only interested in the >inscription, not the piece itself :-) So a scan of the inscription, if >legible, and the editor's reading and translation would be great--many >thanks in advance! > >jonathan silk > >-- >J. Silk >Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden >Postbus 9515 >2300 RA Leiden >Netherlands > > > > Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 20 04:08:57 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 09:38:57 +0530 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! Message-ID: <161227086277.23782.1949180684043144226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Silk, Other sources failing, perhaps, an enquiry could be made at the Oriental Institute, Baroda or Librarian, MS University, Baroda. They took interest in U.P.Shah. The email id of the Institute are not known to me. But there are List members who could know. Best wishes DB --- On Tue, 19/5/09, Jonathan Silk wrote: From: Jonathan Silk Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 19 May, 2009, 11:10 PM Friends, Apparently, the copy of Akota Bronzes by U P Shah supposedly purchased by our library never made it into the collection, and the library has been unable to replace it. Therefore, I wonder whether someone who has it to hand would be willing to scan just a page or two for me. In particular, I am interested in the bronze apparently found on pg. 34, plates 75a-b, and the author's reading of its inscription (actually, I am only interested in the inscription, not the piece itself :-) So a scan of the inscription, if legible, and the editor's reading and translation would be great--many thanks in advance! jonathan silk -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 20 04:11:56 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 09:41:56 +0530 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! Message-ID: <161227086280.23782.10618844069494686904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- On Wed, 20/5/09, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009, 9:38 AM Dear Professor Silk, Other sources failing, perhaps, an enquiry could be made at the Oriental Institute, Baroda or Librarian, MS University, Baroda. They took interest in U.P.Shah. The email id of the Institute?is not known to me. But there are List members who could know. Best wishes DB --- On Tue, 19/5/09, Jonathan Silk wrote: From: Jonathan Silk Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 19 May, 2009, 11:10 PM Friends, Apparently, the copy of Akota Bronzes by U P Shah supposedly purchased by our library never made it into the collection, and the library has been unable to replace it. Therefore, I wonder whether someone who has it to hand would be willing to scan just a page or two for me. In particular, I am interested in the bronze apparently found on pg. 34, plates 75a-b, and the author's reading of its inscription (actually, I am only interested in the inscription, not the piece itself :-) So a scan of the inscription, if legible, and the editor's reading and translation would be great--many thanks in advance! jonathan silk -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands ? ? ? Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Wed May 20 08:30:56 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 10:30:56 +0200 Subject: SARIT update Message-ID: <161227086284.23782.1859853901600552628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, Richard Mahoney and I are pleased to be able to report that the SARIT transcript of the A????gah?dayasa?hit? by V?gbha?a has just been released. It can be searched alongside Manu and Kau?alya through the SARIT web interface: Table of Contents :: V?gbha?a [1997], A machine-readable transcription of the A????gah?daya by V?gbha?a :: (INDOLOGY: Resources for Indological Scholarship, London, 1997) http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/navigate.pl?indologica.3 or downloaded for off-line use: SARIT: Text Archive Downloads http://sarit.indology.info/downloads.shtml We would like to express our gratitude to Prof. R. P. Das and the late Prof. Dr Emmerick for inputting this text and making it generally available. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com From dxs163 at CASE.EDU Wed May 20 15:14:55 2009 From: dxs163 at CASE.EDU (Deepak Sarma) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 11:14:55 -0400 Subject: Who is the director of the Director of the Deccan College Post Graduate and Research Institute? In-Reply-To: <27447611.1242816153228.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227086303.23782.8603951219737046908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> All: Who is the director of the Director of the Deccan College Post Graduate and Research Institute and what is her/ his contact info? I have searched all over the web and have had no luck at all. thanks in advance, Deepak Dr. Deepak Sarma Associate Professor of Religious Studies Associate Professor of Philosophy Asian Studies Faculty Mailing Address: Department of Religious Studies 111 Mather House 11201 Euclid Avenue Case Western Reserve University Cleveland, OH 44106-7112 office: 216-368-4790 fax: 216-368-4681 deepak.sarma at case.edu From joseph.walser at TUFTS.EDU Wed May 20 15:27:47 2009 From: joseph.walser at TUFTS.EDU (Joseph Walser) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 11:27:47 -0400 Subject: Who is the director of the Director of the Deccan College Post Graduate and Research Institute? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086307.23782.5150182143057515541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe it is Aloka Parasher-Sen at University of Hyderabad. If not she would know who it is. -j -- Joseph Walser Associate Professor Department of Religion Tufts University 126 Curtis Street Medford, MA 02155 Office: 617 627-2322 From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Wed May 20 16:06:01 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 12:06:01 -0400 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! Message-ID: <161227086316.23782.17446054585722129996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Dominik. George -----Original Message----- >From: Dominik Wujastyk >Sent: May 20, 2009 7:59 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Re: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! > >On Wed, 20 May 2009, George Cardona wrote: > >> You could get in touch with the director, M. L. Wadekar, or the deputy >> director, S. Y. Wanankar, whose email addresses are: >> mlwadekar at hotmail.com, syw16 at rediffmail.com. Good wishes, George Cardona > >small typo: that's S. Y. Wakankar. From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Wed May 20 11:59:46 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 13:59:46 +0200 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: <27447611.1242816153228.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227086292.23782.8778116928892667747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 20 May 2009, George Cardona wrote: > You could get in touch with the director, M. L. Wadekar, or the deputy > director, S. Y. Wanankar, whose email addresses are: > mlwadekar at hotmail.com, syw16 at rediffmail.com. Good wishes, George Cardona small typo: that's S. Y. Wakankar. From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Wed May 20 13:16:44 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 15:16:44 +0200 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: <27447611.1242816153228.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227086298.23782.14175265389889718157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With thanks to all, a very kind colleague sent a scan of the few pages I need. I have not had time to study the plate carefully, but what is curious is that the scribe/engraver appears indeed to have written not deyadharma- but devadharma-. Is this a common mistake? very best thanks to all, jonathan -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed May 20 23:01:54 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 16:01:54 -0700 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086326.23782.5074391474604806974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jonathan, > the scribe/engraver appears indeed to have written not > deyadharma- but devadharma-. Is this a common mistake? yes, that happens. See p. 24 of: Heinrich L?ders, 1940. Zu und aus den Kharo??h??Urkunden. Acta Orientalia 18: 15?49. for three devadharmas in Ku???a?period Sanskrit inscriptions from a monastery in Mathura and one in a 10th/11th?century inscription from Bengal. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed May 20 23:21:30 2009 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 16:21:30 -0700 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! Message-ID: <161227086330.23782.17803205606898278874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan/Stefan, Didn't Gouriswar Bhattacharya also write something about this word more recently? -- I think in a Festschrift, maybe for D.C. Sircar? Rich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Baums" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 4:01 PM Subject: Re: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! Dear Jonathan, > the scribe/engraver appears indeed to have written not > deyadharma- but devadharma-. Is this a common mistake? yes, that happens. See p. 24 of: Heinrich L?ders, 1940. Zu und aus den Kharo??h??Urkunden. Acta Orientalia 18: 15?49. for three devadharmas in Ku???a?period Sanskrit inscriptions from a monastery in Mathura and one in a 10th/11th?century inscription from Bengal. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed May 20 23:36:03 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 16:36:03 -0700 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086333.23782.15123790370748177064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Didn't Gouriswar Bhattacharya also write something about this > word more recently? Maybe this article: G. Bhattacharya, 1987. D?na ? deyadharma: donation in early Buddhist records (in Br?hm?). In: Marianne Yaldiz and Wibke Lobo, eds., Investigating Indian art: proceedings of a symposium on the development of early Buddhist and Hindu iconography held at the Museum of Indian Art Berlin in May 1986, Berlin: Museum f?r Indische Kunst (Ver?ffentlichungen des Museums f?r Indische Kunst, volume 8), pp. 39?60. S. -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE Wed May 20 15:40:41 2009 From: kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE (=?utf-8?Q?petra_kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 17:40:41 +0200 Subject: textual sequence Message-ID: <161227086312.23782.3719523422281561469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, According to my experience the textual sequence in commentaries regularly is: text to be commented on (for instance a verse or list of terms), commentary on the words or terms of the preceding verse or list (prat?kas plus explanations). I now have a P?li commentary where it is exactly the other way round (prat?kas plus explanations, followed by the text from which the prat?kas are extracted). I would like to know whether this is a common feature in commentarial literature only unnoticed by me. Would be thankful for any comments, Petra ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu May 21 01:44:41 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 18:44:41 -0700 Subject: textual sequence In-Reply-To: <10EBE4E2-BF7C-4FA2-A2A9-D1C13F438F27@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227086339.23782.6303843857952551997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Petra, in G?ndh?r? commentary manuscripts (1st c. BCE to 2nd c. CE), root verses are identified at the beginnig of commentary sections by their first p?da, and prose root texts by their first few words. This is then followed by the body of the commentary with prat?kas (usually without iti and often without any indication of their root status) interspersed. The root text is nowhere quoted in full, neither before nor after the commentary, which probably means that readers were supposed to know it by heart and just needed their memory jogged. Over on the Pali side, I think that if you look at the Niddesa, the original order is for a full quotation of a root verse to follow the commentary as you describe. Each of the commentary sections is introduced by a quotation of the first p?da of the verse in question, just like in the G?ndh?r? manuscripts. Now modern editions of the Niddesa (and recent manuscripts?) _also_ print the root verse before its commentary section, but such a double full quotation seems rather clearly secondary, and it is the full quotation after the commentary body that is syntactically linked to the preceding (by the phrase ?ten?ha bhagav? ... ?), so that is presumably the more original one of the two. One could further compare the Ud?na and similar texts, where the root verse likewise follows the explanatory prose, introduced by a linking phrase ?atha kho bhagav? ... ima? ud?na? ud?nesi ... .? All best wishes, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Thu May 21 01:45:21 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 18:45:21 -0700 Subject: Machine-readable version of the Mahabharata and Prof. Daniel Ingalls Message-ID: <161227086343.23782.14750174310288634575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just received the following note from Dan Ingalls, Jr., the son of Prof. Ingalls. > I recently transcribed a tape of a talk my father and I gave (a > quarter of a century ago ;-), and got interested again in the topic > of producing a machine-readable version of the Mahabharata. We > dropped the project back in 1980 because it seemed like a lot of > work, and it wasn't clear that it made more sense to pay for > technology than to pay real people who needed jobs to do the work. > > However I still have an unbound copy of the Bandarkar edition, I > know some people at Google who might be willing to do the scanning > (I don't know this for sure), and on todays machines the processing > would not be a huge amount of work. I think my modest Macintosh > could probably do a page a second. > > My question to you is this: Has this already been done, by hand or > otherwise and, if not, is it still something that would be of value? > A side-effect of reviving the project would be to dust off my tools > and make them available to other workers in the field. My programs > were all written in my own language (Smalltalk) that only ran on > special hardware at the time, but there is now an open-source > version that runs on just about every computer and operating system. I am posting this (with Dan's permission) for comments. My own feeling is that if Dan has an unbound copy, he could run it through a scanning machine and make available a graphic version -- surely the BORS edition of the MBh is one of the great achievements of 20th century scholarship in any field. I don't know whether it is still under copyright. As far as scanning it goes, I think the wiggly lines under many words would pose a problem -- and it would be almost impossible to scan the apparatus criticus, which is of course a vital part of the work. But with Dan's fluency in smalltalk, perhaps these issues could be overcome. For anyone interested in seeing Prof. Ingalls giving a lecture in 1980 on this project, see http://vimeo.com/4714623 George Hart From adheesh at OCF.BERKELEY.EDU Thu May 21 02:01:54 2009 From: adheesh at OCF.BERKELEY.EDU (Adheesh Sathaye) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 19:01:54 -0700 Subject: Machine-readable version of the Mahabharata and Prof. Daniel Ingalls In-Reply-To: <3B1560BE-E155-4E14-B244-C00D2866D00A@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086346.23782.14356696001446416754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear George et al, I imagine the Tokunaga/Smith electronic version of the MBH (http://bombay.indology.info/mahabharata/statement.html ) is sufficient for most basic scholarly purposes? it contains many of the supplementary ("starred")passages, though not all of the variant readings, I believe. There was some controversy during its editing at BORI which others on the list might be better equipped to discuss. But as of now, this e- text is freely available. The Critical Edition itself is still under copyright in India, and BORI still actively sells copies--so I would strongly advise against scanning a graphic version without seeking permission. All best wishes, Adheesh ---- Adheesh Sathaye Department of Asian Studies University of British Columbia On May 20, 2009, at 6:45 PM, George Hart wrote: > I just received the following note from Dan Ingalls, Jr., the son of > Prof. Ingalls. > >> I recently transcribed a tape of a talk my father and I gave (a >> quarter of a century ago ;-), and got interested again in the topic >> of producing a machine-readable version of the Mahabharata. We >> dropped the project back in 1980 because it seemed like a lot of >> work, and it wasn't clear that it made more sense to pay for >> technology than to pay real people who needed jobs to do the work. >> >> However I still have an unbound copy of the Bandarkar edition, I >> know some people at Google who might be willing to do the scanning >> (I don't know this for sure), and on todays machines the processing >> would not be a huge amount of work. I think my modest Macintosh >> could probably do a page a second. >> >> My question to you is this: Has this already been done, by hand or >> otherwise and, if not, is it still something that would be of >> value? A side-effect of reviving the project would be to dust off >> my tools and make them available to other workers in the field. My >> programs were all written in my own language (Smalltalk) that only >> ran on special hardware at the time, but there is now an open- >> source version that runs on just about every computer and operating >> system. > > I am posting this (with Dan's permission) for comments. My own > feeling is that if Dan has an unbound copy, he could run it through > a scanning machine and make available a graphic version -- surely > the BORS edition of the MBh is one of the great achievements of 20th > century scholarship in any field. I don't know whether it is still > under copyright. As far as scanning it goes, I think the wiggly > lines under many words would pose a problem -- and it would be > almost impossible to scan the apparatus criticus, which is of course > a vital part of the work. But with Dan's fluency in smalltalk, > perhaps these issues could be overcome. > > For anyone interested in seeing Prof. Ingalls giving a lecture in > 1980 on this project, see > > http://vimeo.com/4714623 > > George Hart > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 20 16:09:36 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 21:39:36 +0530 Subject: textual sequence Message-ID: <161227086319.23782.8765202870895575222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is difficult to say without examining the passages concerned. But there is a regular practice of indicating the?section dealt with at the end of the discourse. See any? commentariy?on the Amarako.sa, (say,Bh?nuji D?k.sita) on any entry end eg., pa?ca ?aileyasya ?il?jita iti khy?tasya II.122,123a. But it is? not being claimed that the same is the case with the Pali commentary. Please indicate if?that practice is relevant DB --- On Wed, 20/5/09, petra kieffer-P?lz wrote: From: petra kieffer-P?lz Subject: textual sequence To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009, 9:10 PM Dear All, According to my experience the textual sequence in commentaries regularly is: text to be commented on (for instance a verse or list of terms), commentary on the words or terms of the preceding verse or list (prat?kas plus explanations). I now have a P?li commentary where it is exactly the other way round (prat?kas plus explanations, followed by the text from which the prat?kas are extracted). I would like to know whether this is? a common feature in commentarial literature only unnoticed by me. Would be thankful for any comments, Petra ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From pkoskikallio at GMAIL.COM Wed May 20 18:57:11 2009 From: pkoskikallio at GMAIL.COM (Petteri Koskikallio) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 21:57:11 +0300 Subject: The 2nd Prakrit Summer School Message-ID: <161227086322.23782.17482093675448580903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a reminder for those interested in introductory course in Jaina-Maharastri. The 2nd Prakrit Summer School will be held in W?rzburg in August 17-28, 2009. Please note that the deadline for applications is June 15. http://www.indologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/prakrit_summer_school/ Best wishes, Petteri Koskikallio From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu May 21 07:52:35 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Thu, 21 May 09 00:52:35 -0700 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086359.23782.18171078223386017059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jonathan, the G?ndh?r? form devasama? occurs in line 11 of Se?avarma?s reliquary inscription, see here: http://ebmp.org/a_inscription.php?catid=CKI0249 In his 1986 edition of this inscription (p. 280), Rich gives some further references. (Von Hin?ber does not comment on this form in his 2003 edition of Se?avarma.) For the apparently Eastern sound change of intervocalic y to v (reflected in Pali ?vuso, t?vati?sa, etc.) that may be operative here see von Hin?ber, ?lteres Mittelindisch, ? 214. This word also occurs contracted to desama- in the Taxila silver scroll: http://ebmp.org/a_inscription.php?catid=CKI0060 and elsewhere, so at least in the Northwestern parts the identity of the first part of the compound appears to have become unclear fairly early on, making possible the (presumably) folk etymology connecting it with deva?. Best wishes, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu May 21 02:40:19 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 21 May 09 08:10:19 +0530 Subject: textual sequence Message-ID: <161227086349.23782.12954091056336933841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The g?th? coming at the end?has remained?a feature of the J?takas in general. DB? --- On Thu, 21/5/09, Stefan Baums wrote: From: Stefan Baums Subject: Re: textual sequence To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 21 May, 2009, 7:14 AM Dear Petra, in G?ndh?r? commentary manuscripts (1st c. BCE to 2nd c. CE), root verses are identified at the beginnig of commentary sections by their first p?da, and prose root texts by their first few words. This is then followed by the body of the commentary with prat?kas (usually without iti and often without any indication of their root status) interspersed. The root text is nowhere quoted in full, neither before nor after the commentary, which probably means that readers were supposed to know it by heart and just needed their memory jogged. Over on the Pali side, I think that if you look at the Niddesa, the original order is for a full quotation of a root verse to follow the commentary as you describe. Each of the commentary sections is introduced by a quotation of the first p?da of the verse in question, just like in the G?ndh?r? manuscripts. Now modern editions of the Niddesa (and recent manuscripts?) _also_ print the root verse before its commentary section, but such a double full quotation seems rather clearly secondary, and it is the full quotation after the commentary body that is syntactically linked to the preceding (by the phrase ?ten?ha bhagav? ... ?), so that is presumably the more original one of the two. One could further compare the Ud?na and similar texts, where the root verse likewise follows the explanatory prose, introduced by a linking phrase ?atha kho bhagav? ... ima? ud?na? ud?nesi ... .? All best wishes, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Thu May 21 07:20:37 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 21 May 09 09:20:37 +0200 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086352.23782.364850275403499294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I confess that it occured to me only too late of course to check Sircar first of all--rather stupid, sorry! But the context itself as well as othe reference cited by Stefan make me strongly suspect that the answer should be sought elsewhere (that is, I don't think we should be disposed to take deva as = deva). A graphic error is hardly possible, I should think; is there a phonological explanation? Again, I apologize but our library is closed until next week... many thanks jonathan 2009/5/21 Antonio Ferreira-Jardim > I'm not sure if this is helpful or not but Sircar's Indian > Epigraphical Glossary sv. "devadharma" states: > > "deva-dharma (Ep. Ind., Vol. XXVIII, p. 144), same as > deya-dharma when the gift was the image of a god." > > Kind regards, > > Antonio Ferreira-Jardim > University of Queensland > > > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Stefan Baums > wrote: > >> Didn't Gouriswar Bhattacharya also write something about this > >> word more recently? > > > > Maybe this article: > > > > G. Bhattacharya, 1987. D?na - deyadharma: donation in early > > Buddhist records (in Br?hm?). In: Marianne Yaldiz and Wibke > > Lobo, eds., Investigating Indian art: proceedings of a > > symposium on the development of early Buddhist and Hindu > > iconography held at the Museum of Indian Art Berlin in May > > 1986, Berlin: Museum f?r Indische Kunst (Ver?ffentlichungen des > > Museums f?r Indische Kunst, volume 8), pp. 39-60. > > > > S. > > > > -- > > Stefan Baums > > Asian Languages and Literature > > University of Washington > > > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From cbpicron at GMX.DE Thu May 21 07:35:43 2009 From: cbpicron at GMX.DE (Claudine Bautze-Picron) Date: Thu, 21 May 09 09:35:43 +0200 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086355.23782.12226832851120632244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jonathan, Check indeed the paper by G. Bhattacharya mentioned before (down this mail), it is also republished in "Essays on Buddhist, Hindu, Jain Iconography & Epigraphy", by Gouriswar Bhattacharya (Studies in Bengal Art Series N? 1, Dhaka: The International Centre for Study of Bengal Art, 2000, pp. 385-406) - see in particularly his endnote 134 (with references to Edgerton & von Hin?ber). Claudine. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Jonathan Silk Sent: Donnerstag, 21. Mai 2009 09:21 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! I confess that it occured to me only too late of course to check Sircar first of all--rather stupid, sorry! But the context itself as well as othe reference cited by Stefan make me strongly suspect that the answer should be sought elsewhere (that is, I don't think we should be disposed to take deva as = deva). A graphic error is hardly possible, I should think; is there a phonological explanation? Again, I apologize but our library is closed until next week... many thanks jonathan 2009/5/21 Antonio Ferreira-Jardim > I'm not sure if this is helpful or not but Sircar's Indian > Epigraphical Glossary sv. "devadharma" states: > > "deva-dharma (Ep. Ind., Vol. XXVIII, p. 144), same as > deya-dharma when the gift was the image of a god." > > Kind regards, > > Antonio Ferreira-Jardim > University of Queensland > > > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Stefan Baums > wrote: > >> Didn't Gouriswar Bhattacharya also write something about this > >> word more recently? > > > > Maybe this article: > > > > G. Bhattacharya, 1987. D?na - deyadharma: donation in early > > Buddhist records (in Br?hm?). In: Marianne Yaldiz and Wibke > > Lobo, eds., Investigating Indian art: proceedings of a > > symposium on the development of early Buddhist and Hindu > > iconography held at the Museum of Indian Art Berlin in May > > 1986, Berlin: Museum f?r Indische Kunst (Ver?ffentlichungen des > > Museums f?r Indische Kunst, volume 8), pp. 39-60. > > > > S. > > > > -- > > Stefan Baums > > Asian Languages and Literature > > University of Washington > > > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From antonio.jardim at GMAIL.COM Wed May 20 23:49:45 2009 From: antonio.jardim at GMAIL.COM (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim) Date: Thu, 21 May 09 09:49:45 +1000 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: <20090520233603.GE32234@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086336.23782.16801010605668095644.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm not sure if this is helpful or not but Sircar's Indian Epigraphical Glossary sv. "devadharma" states: "deva-dharma (Ep. Ind., Vol. XXVIII, p. 144), same as deya-dharma when the gift was the image of a god." Kind regards, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim University of Queensland On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Stefan Baums wrote: >> Didn't Gouriswar Bhattacharya also write something about this >> word more recently? > > Maybe this article: > > G. Bhattacharya, 1987. D?na - deyadharma: donation in early > Buddhist records (in Br?hm?). In: Marianne Yaldiz and Wibke > Lobo, eds., Investigating Indian art: proceedings of a > symposium on the development of early Buddhist and Hindu > iconography held at the Museum of Indian Art Berlin in May > 1986, Berlin: Museum f?r Indische Kunst (Ver?ffentlichungen des > Museums f?r Indische Kunst, volume 8), pp. 39-60. > > S. > > -- > Stefan Baums > Asian Languages and Literature > University of Washington > From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Thu May 21 08:01:37 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 21 May 09 10:01:37 +0200 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: <20090521075235.GB11875@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086362.23782.16128415216382645859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks Stefan! (By the way, you might want to check the way the website is processing foot notes in the inscription--they're almost all note 1, it seems...) Many thanks to all; I'll follow up the references when I can get to my office and the library. (I can't help observing how a putatively very nonreligious country like the Netherlands seems to pay very special attention to holy days ....) jonathan On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Stefan Baums wrote: > Dear Jonathan, > > the G?ndh?r? form devasama? occurs in line 11 of Se?avarma?s > reliquary inscription, see here: > > http://ebmp.org/a_inscription.php?catid=CKI0249 > > In his 1986 edition of this inscription (p. 280), Rich gives some > further references. (Von Hin?ber does not comment on this form in > his 2003 edition of Se?avarma.) For the apparently Eastern sound > change of intervocalic y to v (reflected in Pali ?vuso, t?vati?sa, > etc.) that may be operative here see von Hin?ber, ?lteres > Mittelindisch, ? 214. This word also occurs contracted to desama- > in the Taxila silver scroll: > > http://ebmp.org/a_inscription.php?catid=CKI0060 > > and elsewhere, so at least in the Northwestern parts the identity > of the first part of the compound appears to have become unclear > fairly early on, making possible the (presumably) folk etymology > connecting it with deva?. > > Best wishes, > Stefan > > -- > Stefan Baums > Asian Languages and Literature > University of Washington > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE Thu May 21 09:42:44 2009 From: kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE (=?utf-8?Q?petra_kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=) Date: Thu, 21 May 09 11:42:44 +0200 Subject: textual sequence In-Reply-To: <20090521014441.GB4165@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086365.23782.18376635547471382226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stefan, thank you for your comments, especially for those on the Niddesa, etc. This seems to be comparable to the chapter headings originally also given in the end. I think this is the solution for my passage, which strictly speaking is not a commentary, but the introduction to a commentary. Thanks also to all others for their comments. Petra My description was not fully correct, because the Am 21.05.2009 um 03:44 schrieb Stefan Baums: > Dear Petra, > > in G?ndh?r? commentary manuscripts (1st c. BCE to 2nd c. CE), root > verses are identified at the beginnig of commentary sections by > their first p?da, and prose root texts by their first few > words. This is then followed by the body of the commentary with > prat?kas (usually without iti and often without any indication of > their root status) interspersed. The root text is nowhere quoted > in full, neither before nor after the commentary, which probably > means that readers were supposed to know it by heart and just > needed their memory jogged. > > Over on the Pali side, I think that if you look at the Niddesa, > the original order is for a full quotation of a root verse to > follow the commentary as you describe. Each of the commentary > sections is introduced by a quotation of the first p?da of the > verse in question, just like in the G?ndh?r? manuscripts. Now > modern editions of the Niddesa (and recent manuscripts?) _also_ > print the root verse before its commentary section, but such a > double full quotation seems rather clearly secondary, and it is > the full quotation after the commentary body that is syntactically > linked to the preceding (by the phrase ?ten?ha bhagav? ... ?), > so > that is presumably the more original one of the two. One could > further compare the Ud?na and similar texts, where the root verse > likewise follows the explanatory prose, introduced by a linking > phrase ?atha kho bhagav? ... ima? ud?na? ud?nesi ... .? > > All best wishes, > Stefan > > -- > Stefan Baums > Asian Languages and Literature > University of Washington ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Sun May 24 01:06:00 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Sat, 23 May 09 18:06:00 -0700 Subject: Machine-readable version of the Mahabharata and Prof. Daniel Ingalls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086368.23782.2171735240651036724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to everyone who responded -- I've passed on your ideas to Dan. George From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun May 24 09:44:05 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 02:44:05 -0700 Subject: On the technical term "pra t=?utf-8?Q?=C4=ABka"?= In-Reply-To: <4A1910AB.1000202@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227086394.23782.7646941346122937947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Birgit, > the indigenous use of "prat?ka" is limited only to the words of > the root-text taken up at the very beginning of the commentary > section that is concerned with it that was my impression too, but I can?t back it up with more than MW s.v.: ?the first part (of a verse), first word Br. &c. &c.? right now. (The first p?da of a verse being what traditionally served to identify it, hence its lemma.) > are people comfortable with then using an indigenous term with > extended semantics I would rather not. What I currently do is use ?lemma quotation? for prat?ka proper and ?quotation? for other quotations. Not elegant, but I guess it could be whittled down to just ?lemma? (prat?ka) and ?quotation? (not prat?ka). What we really need, however, is a three-way distinction between (1) root-text lemma, (2) other quotation of root text material, and (3) external quotation from somewhere else than the root text. The extended use of ?prat?ka? in Western scholarship is probably partly due to the fact that it handily distinguishes (1) and (2) from (3). Cheers, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Sun May 24 08:35:46 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 03:35:46 -0500 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086377.23782.9795230713609392242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I saw it many years ago, but I recall that my impression was that it followed a simplified version of the story-line of Saaya.na-Maadhava's Zrii-ZaNkara-Digvijaya and that, for all intents and purposes, it treated the brahmanical milieu of Kerala as not needing much social-historical adjustment (which, for all I know, may be roughly the truth). (For the flip-side of this view of brahmanism down south, there's always Anathamurthy's novel Samskara and the film Girish Karnad based on it...) Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Sun May 24 09:36:30 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 04:36:30 -0500 Subject: On the technical term "prat=?utf-8?Q?=C4=ABka"?= In-Reply-To: <4A1910AB.1000202@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227086389.23782.9232103981890741264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the questions raised in connection with commentarial forms, it is now useful to consult Tubb and Boose's excellent _Scholastic Sanskrit: A Manual for Students_, esp. ch. 10. Pratiika is defined on p. 152 (the index mistakenly gives 150) as just "the first word or two, of the passage in question." This seems to correspond with traditional usage. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Sun May 24 07:58:10 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 09:58:10 +0200 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227086370.23782.15249293113161498554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) feature film in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? I confess I only watched a few minutes of it, and while there's a lot of chanting of classical texts, there is also some speaking ("conversational Sanskrit?") as well (is this the place to confess?--thank goodness for the subtitles!). I am also curious whether the film-makers tried to get the cultural contexts right.... Best regards, Jonathan Silk -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sun May 24 08:42:18 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 10:42:18 +0200 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086381.23782.17256291510422789896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan Silk wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi > Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) feature film > in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or > others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? I confess I only > watched a few minutes of it, and while there's a lot of chanting of > classical texts, there is also some speaking ("conversational Sanskrit?") as > well (is this the place to confess?--thank goodness for the subtitles!). I > am also curious whether the film-makers tried to get the cultural contexts > right.... > > Best regards, Jonathan Silk > Jonathan, the "Encyclopedia of Indian Cinema" (Willemen/Rajadhyaksha) also has this as the first Indian film made in Sanskrit. The encyclopedia entry tells the plot, and continues: "Continuing his effort after "Hamsa Geethe" (1975) towards a brahminical revivalism, Iyer claimed to have made the film in Sanskrit to do justice to the abstraction of Shankara's philosophical thought. The film does away with the miracle scenes typical of the genre and deploys several symbolic figures (e.g. death and wisdom are both personified). The extensive musical track consists of Vedic chants. Iyer went on to make two more Saint films featuring two of Shankara's main disciples, Madhavacharya (Kannada, 1986) and Shri Ramanujacharya (Tamil, 1989). The film did not get a commercial release in India but apparently did very well in foreign markets." (p. 425) Best, Birgit From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Sun May 24 09:15:14 2009 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 11:15:14 +0200 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086384.23782.16592188511348955368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 24.05.2009 um 09:58 schrieb Jonathan Silk: > I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi > Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) > feature film > in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or > others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? There is a German Ph.D. thesis on this film: Mangold, Sylvia: ?di ?a?kar?c?rya? : G. V. Iyers Filmkommentar zur Religionsphilosophie ?a?karas. - Frankfurt am Main [et al.] : Lang, 1994. - XII, 248 p. - (Theion ; 4). - ISBN 3-631-47352-4 Frankfurt (Main), Univ., Diss., 1993 By the way, the complete movie is available on Google Video: URL: All the best Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 53113 Bonn From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sun May 24 09:17:31 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 11:17:31 +0200 Subject: On the technical term "prat=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=ABka"?= Message-ID: <161227086386.23782.17078666878364362570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, the recent query by Petra Kieffer-P?lz regarding certain features of commentaries reminded me of a question I had meant to ask here for quite a while: scholars often use the technical term "prat?ka" to refer to each and every word of a root-text that a commentary picks up. This, I was once told, is inaccurate, for the indigenous use of "prat?ka" is limited only to the words of the root-text taken up at the very beginning of the commentary section that is concerned with it. Is this correct? If so, are people comfortable with then using an indigenous term with extended semantics, or would you rather prefer using an English neologism (or, say, the classicist "lemma") instead? Best regards, Birgit Kellner From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Sun May 24 10:01:50 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 12:01:50 +0200 Subject: On the technical term "pra t=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=ABka"?= In-Reply-To: <20090524094405.GA12998@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086398.23782.12089457652582147146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not to complicate matters, but while Stefan suggests: What we really need, > however, is a three-way distinction between (1) root-text lemma, > (2) other quotation of root text material, and (3) external > quotation from somewhere else than the root text. Would not it be helpful to either distinguish 3 & 4, or 3a 3b, namely at least in the Buddhist case (but I imagine elsewhere too) between scriptural and ??stric quotation? Jonathan -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Sun May 24 08:04:35 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (Veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 13:34:35 +0530 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086373.23782.1588760305151937886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> i do not know about discssion on it. but it is not the only sankrit cinema. G.V. Aiyer the director of Adi Shankaracharya did many such things. Ramanujacharya, Madhvacharya, Bhagavadgita. recent film in samskrit is something based on candragupta and made by some jaipur based director On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi > Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) feature > film > in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or > others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? I confess I only > watched a few minutes of it, and while there's a lot of chanting of > classical texts, there is also some speaking ("conversational Sanskrit?") > as > well (is this the place to confess?--thank goodness for the subtitles!). I > am also curious whether the film-makers tried to get the cultural contexts > right.... > > Best regards, Jonathan Silk > -- > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Postbus 9515 > 2300 RA Leiden > Netherlands > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU Mon May 25 01:29:52 2009 From: mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU (Mark Allon) Date: Mon, 25 May 09 11:29:52 +1000 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: <78D7951C-4127-4429-95B2-DE5AB466AAEF@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227086401.23782.7093432434136786844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, You may already know this, but you can produce a pdf by the following method: save each page as a JPEG (right click > Save image as > JPEG), then convert these to pdfs and stitch them together. Bit time consuming, but better than nothing. Regards Mark Dr Mark Allon Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies University of Sydney Brennan MacCallum Building A18 Sydney NSW 2006, Australia Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of petra kieffer-P?lz Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 8:01 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > > > Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html > wrapper, without the digital image of the page. But since you've > had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At least that's the way I could save some articles. Best Petra Kieffer-P?lz ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Mon May 25 10:28:55 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Mon, 25 May 09 12:28:55 +0200 Subject: Anyone for lexicography? Message-ID: <161227086405.23782.16797582079479436489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A colleague has asked me to spread the word about a new European Masters course in lexicography beginning this year. http://www.atilf.fr/atilf/divers/Master_EMLex_Nancy.pdf Dominic Goodall Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon May 25 18:57:43 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Mon, 25 May 09 13:57:43 -0500 Subject: A. K. Chatterjee In-Reply-To: <20090524094405.GA12998@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086407.23782.18170709744677541121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be grateful for any information any of you may have regarding what became of Prof. A. K. Chatterjee (Benares Hindu University), noted scholar of Yogacara Buddhist philosophy, following his retirement (about 20 years ago) from BHU. with thanks in advance for your kind attention, Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Tue May 26 15:23:25 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 26 May 09 17:23:25 +0200 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: <2A050F71F50A0E4DA87B7DA81A57EE9811EDCF@EXPRSV05.mcs.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227086410.23782.17060554809132956246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The managers of the ZDMG digital edition website have announced that they will be providing PDF download facilities, certainly for pages, and if possible also for individual articles. It is in the pipeline. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Mon, 25 May 2009, Mark Allon wrote: > Dear all, > > You may already know this, but you can produce a pdf by the following method: save each page as a JPEG (right click > Save image as > JPEG), then convert these to pdfs and stitch them together. Bit time consuming, but better than nothing. > > Regards > Mark > > Dr Mark Allon > Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies > University of Sydney > Brennan MacCallum Building A18 > Sydney NSW 2006, Australia > Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of petra kieffer-P?lz > Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 8:01 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital > > Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > >> >> >> Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html >> wrapper, without the digital image of the page. But since you've >> had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. > > In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the > frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the > respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At > least that's the way I could save some articles. > > Best > Petra Kieffer-P?lz > > ************** > Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz > Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 > 99423 Weimar > Germany > Tel. 03643/770447 > kiepue at t-online.de > From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Tue May 26 16:14:27 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Tue, 26 May 09 18:14:27 +0200 Subject: Caraka-Samhita, English translation - help requested Message-ID: <161227086414.23782.17035798603269853855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The first volume with parts 1-32 of Kisari Mohan Ganguli's English translation of the Caraka-Samhita can now be downloaded from the GRETIL e-library (address see below). Volume 2 with parts 33-60 is in the pipeline, but will take some time due to the poor print quality of the original, which hampers the recognition rate of the background text of both e-books. Unfortunately, this library has never received the remaining parts (61-68) of Ganguli's translation. Would someone be so kind as to tell me from where good copies or scans can be ordered so I can eventually complete the e-book? [By the way, Ganguli's translation is often ascribed to the publisher, Avinash Chandra Kaviratna - much like Ganguli's translation of the Mahabharata, which is usually ascribed to Pratap Candra Roy.] Thanks in advance, Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von Dominik Wujastyk Gesendet: Di 26.05.2009 17:23 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital The managers of the ZDMG digital edition website have announced that they will be providing PDF download facilities, certainly for pages, and if possible also for individual articles. It is in the pipeline. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Mon, 25 May 2009, Mark Allon wrote: > Dear all, > > You may already know this, but you can produce a pdf by the following method: save each page as a JPEG (right click > Save image as > JPEG), then convert these to pdfs and stitch them together. Bit time consuming, but better than nothing. > > Regards > Mark > > Dr Mark Allon > Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies > University of Sydney > Brennan MacCallum Building A18 > Sydney NSW 2006, Australia > Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of petra kieffer-P?lz > Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 8:01 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital > > Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > >> >> >> Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html >> wrapper, without the digital image of the page. But since you've >> had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. > > In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the > frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the > respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At > least that's the way I could save some articles. > > Best > Petra Kieffer-P?lz > > ************** > Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz > Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 > 99423 Weimar > Germany > Tel. 03643/770447 > kiepue at t-online.de > From ingeardagum at YAHOO.CO.UK Tue May 26 20:32:10 2009 From: ingeardagum at YAHOO.CO.UK (Benjamin Slade) Date: Tue, 26 May 09 20:32:10 +0000 Subject: [live stream conference announcement] Watch ILLS 1: LOL streaming online! (29-31 May 2009) Message-ID: <161227086416.23782.12819099565697761630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Below is the announcement concerning the live stream of the upcoming first meeting of the Illinois Language and Linguistics Society [ILLS 1] (http://www.linguistics.uiuc.edu/ILLS). There will be three Indology-related talks: (1) 'Number Sensitive Items and Agreement: A Case from Hindi' [Archna Bhatia, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign] (2) 'The Grand Strategy of Politeness among Bengalis on Orkut' [Anupam Das, Indiana University Bloomington] (3) 'Influence of English on Hindi Embedded Relative Clauses' [Vandana Puri, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign] Please forward as appropriate. See below for announcment: --------------------------------- To researchers in linguistics, computer-mediated communication, and related fields: This coming weekend, May 29-31, 2009, the Linguistics Student Organization at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign is proud to present Illinois Language and Linguistics Society 1: Language Online. Through a partnership with ATLAS Digital Media, we are now able to offer a live stream of the conference online at http://www.linguistics.uiuc.edu/ILLS. Tune in this weekend to participate in this exciting new conference! Online participants will have the opportunity to submit questions in real time for the moderator to convey to the presenters. Please take a moment to have a look at our full program, available at our website: http://www.linguistics.uiuc.edu/ILLS Thanks, and hope to see you online (or in person?) next weekend! For more information, please don't hesitate to contact me: bslade at illinois.edu, or my co-organiser, Matt Garley: mgarley2 at illinois.edu. ------------------------------------------------- Benjamin Slade Dept. of Linguistics University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign email: bslade at illinois.edu website: http://www.jnanam.net/slade/ office: FLB 4108 office hours: M 1-3 and by appt. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ???? ?????????? ?? ?????? 'The gods love the obscure.' (?atapathabr?ma?a 6.1.1.2) From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Wed May 27 02:44:28 2009 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 04:44:28 +0200 Subject: Pure LIght Dharani Sutra Message-ID: <161227086419.23782.6312398326510854213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi might someone know of an electronic version of the text and a translation of the Mugujeonggwang Daedaranigyeong (Pure Light Dharani Sutra) from the Bulguk-sa pagoda in Korea, the text found in 1966? Regards James Hartzell From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Wed May 27 12:09:33 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 05:09:33 -0700 Subject: Ageusia In-Reply-To: <793_1243404266_1243404266_4B157E39552741A591C2999FEDF4269B@zen> Message-ID: <161227086467.23782.16046585962346671101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> arocaka is what I have come across in this sense. Page 87 of vol. 1 of Aayurvediiya Mahaako;sa ... by Venii-maadhava-;saastrii Jo;sii and Naaraaya.na Harii Jo;sii (Mumbai: Mahaaraastra Raajya Saahitya aa.ni Sa.msk.rti Ma.n.da.la, 1968) confirms this with several citations from Skt texts. ashok aklujkar On 5/26/09 11:06 PM, "Stephen Hodge" wrote: > Does anybody familiar with Ayurvedic material know if there is a Sanskrit > term for "aguesia" ~ the inability to taste ? From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Wed May 27 09:47:06 2009 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 05:47:06 -0400 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086454.23782.4960276337497130744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Stephen, I don't know whether this occurs in medical contexts, but a term for "not tasted, untasted, not enjoyed" is anasvadita (an-asvadita). Dan Lusthaus From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Wed May 27 09:53:37 2009 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 05:53:37 -0400 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086457.23782.6266250814486078003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry -- the diacriticals disappeared: anasvadita (an-asvadita). Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Lusthaus" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 5:47 AM Subject: Re: Ageusia > Hi Stephen, > > I don't know whether this occurs in medical contexts, but a term for "not > tasted, untasted, not enjoyed" is anasvadita (an-asvadita). > > Dan Lusthaus > From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Wed May 27 10:22:14 2009 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 06:22:14 -0400 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086460.23782.1965654415663708611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Again -- apologies. The diacriticals are there when I hit send, but not when the message comes out the other end. Not sure why. One more try... Just in case: an-AsvAdita (anasvadita) Dan Lusthaus From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Wed May 27 06:06:48 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 07:06:48 +0100 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086437.23782.10471542322316342894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, Does anybody familiar with Ayurvedic material know if there is a Sanskrit term for "aguesia" ~ the inability to taste ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed May 27 05:43:00 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 07:43:00 +0200 Subject: AW: Caraka-Samhita, English translation - help requested Message-ID: <161227086433.23782.8419903416983821919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Problem solved! Thanks R.G. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 27 03:35:41 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 09:05:41 +0530 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227086422.23782.5392263866265114523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (For the flip-side of this view of brahmanism down south, there's always Anathamurthy's novel Samskara and the film Girish Karnad based on it...) There have been many films on this and in many Indian languages. Gora (dir. Naresh Mitra, 1930, author Tagore(1912),Bengali) is an early example. In the nineties?the Hindi version of a Kerala film/story Kayar ?was serially prsented in the TV. Satyajit Ray's Devi was made in the late fifties, as far as I remember. There are many other similar films made around 1950 particularly those on the Bengali novelist Sarat Chandra Chattopadhyay's critical novels like 'Bamuner meye'. DB --- On Sun, 24/5/09, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: The Film Adi Shankaracharya To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 24 May, 2009, 2:05 PM I saw it many years ago, but I recall that my impression was that it followed a simplified version of the story-line of Saaya.na-Maadhava's Zrii-ZaNkara-Digvijaya and that, for all intents and purposes, it treated the brahmanical milieu of Kerala as not needing much social-historical adjustment (which, for all I know, may be roughly the truth). (For the flip-side of this view of brahmanism down south, there's always Anathamurthy's novel Samskara and the film Girish Karnad based on it...) Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Wed May 27 07:59:00 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 09:59:00 +0200 Subject: Ageusia In-Reply-To: <4B157E39552741A591C2999FEDF4269B@zen> Message-ID: <161227086441.23782.10461553714129625174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe there's a condition called at?pti, which is a kind of inability to get satisfaction from food. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Wed, 27 May 2009, Stephen Hodge wrote: > Dear all, > > Does anybody familiar with Ayurvedic material know if there is a Sanskrit > term for "aguesia" ~ the inability to taste ? > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 27 04:32:23 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 10:02:23 +0530 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital Message-ID: <161227086426.23782.10141137802127983510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To Mr.Mark Allon ? This is good advice. But it is not clear which type of file is meant as the 'convertee' and in which system. Are there not simpler ways of converting?word files of any system (Note Book, Wordpad, iLEAP etc, but not MS Dos) when the writer is installed in XP? One just 'Ctrl+p's and selects the pdf.option.? Are?you speaking of Mac? It may be that my question is born of ignorance. Please do not hesitate to rectify. DB --- On Mon, 25/5/09, Mark Allon wrote: From: Mark Allon Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 25 May, 2009, 6:59 AM Dear all, You may already know this, but you can produce a pdf by the following method: save each page as a JPEG (right click > Save image as > JPEG), then convert these to pdfs and stitch them together. Bit time consuming, but better than nothing. Regards Mark Dr Mark Allon Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies University of Sydney Brennan MacCallum Building A18 Sydney NSW 2006, Australia Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of petra kieffer-P?lz Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 8:01 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > > > Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html? > wrapper, without the digital image of the page.? But since you've? > had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the? frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the? respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At? least that's the way I could save some articles. Best Petra Kieffer-P?lz ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 27 04:32:23 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 10:02:23 +0530 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital Message-ID: <161227086445.23782.15426313695766094405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To Mr.Mark Allon ? This is good advice. But it is not clear which type of file is meant as the 'convertee' and in which system. Are there not simpler ways of converting?word files of any system (Note Book, Wordpad, iLEAP etc, but not MS Dos) when the writer is installed in XP? One just 'Ctrl+p's and selects the pdfoption.? Are?you speaking of Mac? It may be that my question is born of ignorance. Please do not hesitate to rectify. DB --- On Mon, 25/5/09, Mark Allon wrote: From: Mark Allon Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 25 May, 2009, 6:59 AM Dear all, You may already know this, but you can produce a pdf by the following method: save each page as a JPEG (right click > Save image as > JPEG), then convert these to pdfs and stitch them together. Bit time consuming, but better than nothing. Regards Mark Dr Mark Allon Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies University of Sydney Brennan MacCallum Building A18 Sydney NSW 2006, Australia Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of petra kieffer-P?lz Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 8:01 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > > > Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html? > wrapper, without the digital image of the page.? But since you've? > had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the? frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the? respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At? least that's the way I could save some articles. Best Petra Kieffer-P?lz ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 27 04:55:18 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 10:25:18 +0530 Subject: Caraka-Samhita, English translation - help requested Message-ID: <161227086429.23782.182836852635120647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The premier libraries are digitalizing old publications in their possession. The Visva Bharati University at Santiniketan,WB aimed at publications dating before 1924. The task is going on. I have not found it necessary to use the digital library of the VIsva Bharati. But you may enquire at . You may, perhaps, also enquire at the National Library and the Asiatic Society , both at Kolkata. I may enquire at the last mentioned Institute. But, then, ?for any positive result?I have to be at Kolkata that may not happen before mid-June. DB --- On Tue, 26/5/09, Gruenendahl, Reinhold wrote: From: Gruenendahl, Reinhold Subject: Caraka-Samhita, English translation - help requested To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 26 May, 2009, 9:44 PM The first volume with parts 1-32 of Kisari Mohan Ganguli's English translation of the Caraka-Samhita can now be downloaded from the GRETIL e-library (address see below). Volume 2 with parts 33-60 is in the pipeline, but will take some time due to the poor print quality of the original, which hampers the recognition rate of the background text of both e-books. Unfortunately, this library has never received the remaining parts (61-68) of Ganguli's translation. Would someone be so kind as to tell me from where good copies or scans can be ordered so I can eventually complete the e-book? [By the way, Ganguli's translation is often ascribed to the publisher, Avinash Chandra Kaviratna - much like Ganguli's translation of the Mahabharata, which is usually ascribed to Pratap Candra Roy.] Thanks in advance, Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von Dominik Wujastyk Gesendet: Di 26.05.2009 17:23 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital The managers of the ZDMG digital edition website have announced that they will be providing PDF download facilities, certainly for pages, and if possible also for individual articles.? It is in the pipeline. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Mon, 25 May 2009, Mark Allon wrote: > Dear all, > > You may already know this, but you can produce a pdf by the following method: save each page as a JPEG (right click > Save image as > JPEG), then convert these to pdfs and stitch them together. Bit time consuming, but better than nothing. > > Regards > Mark > > Dr Mark Allon > Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies > University of Sydney > Brennan MacCallum Building A18 > Sydney NSW 2006, Australia > Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of petra kieffer-P?lz > Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 8:01 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital > > Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > >> >> >> Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html >> wrapper, without the digital image of the page.? But since you've >> had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. > > In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the > frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the > respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At > least that's the way I could save some articles. > > Best > Petra Kieffer-P?lz > > ************** > Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz > Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 > 99423 Weimar > Germany > Tel. 03643/770447 > kiepue at t-online.de > Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 27 04:55:18 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 10:25:18 +0530 Subject: Caraka-Samhita, English translation - help requested Message-ID: <161227086448.23782.8714435192460090734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The premier libraries are digitalizing old publications in their possession The Visva Bharati University at Santiniketan,WB aimed at publications dating before 1924. The task is going on. I have not found it necessary to use the digital library of the VIsva Bharati. But you may enquire at . You may, perhaps, also enquire at the National Library and the Asiatic Society , both at Kolkata. I may enquire at the last mentioned Institute. But, then, ?for any positive result?I have to be at Kolkata that may not happen before mid-June. DB --- On Tue, 26/5/09, Gruenendahl, Reinhold wrote: From: Gruenendahl, Reinhold Subject: Caraka-Samhita, English translation - help requested To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 26 May, 2009, 9:44 PM The first volume with parts 1-32 of Kisari Mohan Ganguli's English translation of the Caraka-Samhita can now be downloaded from the GRETIL e-library (address see below). Volume 2 with parts 33-60 is in the pipeline, but will take some time due to the poor print quality of the original, which hampers the recognition rate of the background text of both e-books. Unfortunately, this library has never received the remaining parts (61-68) of Ganguli's translation. Would someone be so kind as to tell me from where good copies or scans can be ordered so I can eventually complete the e-book? [By the way, Ganguli's translation is often ascribed to the publisher, Avinash Chandra Kaviratna - much like Ganguli's translation of the Mahabharata, which is usually ascribed to Pratap Candra Roy.] Thanks in advance, Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von Dominik Wujastyk Gesendet: Di 26.05.2009 17:23 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital The managers of the ZDMG digital edition website have announced that they will be providing PDF download facilities, certainly for pages, and if possible also for individual articles.? It is in the pipeline. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Mon, 25 May 2009, Mark Allon wrote: > Dear all, > > You may already know this, but you can produce a pdf by the following method: save each page as a JPEG (right click > Save image as > JPEG), then convert these to pdfs and stitch them together. Bit time consuming, but better than nothing. > > Regards > Mark > > Dr Mark Allon > Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies > University of Sydney > Brennan MacCallum Building A18 > Sydney NSW 2006, Australia > Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of petra kieffer-P?lz > Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 8:01 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital > > Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > >> >> >> Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html >> wrapper, without the digital image of the page.? But since you've >> had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. > > In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the > frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the > respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At > least that's the way I could save some articles. > > Best > Petra Kieffer-P?lz > > ************** > Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz > Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 > 99423 Weimar > Germany > Tel. 03643/770447 > kiepue at t-online.de > Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From meulnbld at XS4ALL.NL Wed May 27 09:17:49 2009 From: meulnbld at XS4ALL.NL (G.J. Meulenbeld) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 11:17:49 +0200 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086451.23782.15819205838921952249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleague, Ageusia as a distinct syndrome is found in a late ayurvedic text, the Nigha.n.turatnaakara, compiled by Vi.s.nu Vaasudeva Go.dbole and his associates (see on this text my "History of Indian medical literature", IIA, 365--368), bhaag duusraa 401: bhu~njaanasya narasyaanna.m madhuraprabh.rtiin rasaan / rasanaa yan na jaanaati rasaaj~naana.m tad ucyate // Verses on its treatment follow. The same verse on rasaaj~naana, is also found in Vallabhendra's Vaidyacintaama.ni, a text of uncertain date but much earlier (see again IIA, 481--489), chapter 10, p.171 . I hope this will help, best wishes, Jan Meulenbeld ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Hodge" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:06 AM Subject: Ageusia > Dear all, > > Does anybody familiar with Ayurvedic material know if there is a Sanskrit > term for "aguesia" ~ the inability to taste ? > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 27 11:22:27 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 16:52:27 +0530 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086463.23782.16573791240256696265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Local Kavir?jas of Varanasi use the term agnim?ndya or the less technical kshudh?m?ndya meaning absence of appetite DB --- On Wed, 27/5/09, Stephen Hodge wrote: From: Stephen Hodge Subject: Ageusia To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 27 May, 2009, 11:36 AM Dear all, Does anybody familiar with Ayurvedic material know if there is a Sanskrit term for "aguesia" ~ the inability to taste ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! group at http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 28 14:47:33 2009 From: navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM (JAGANADH GOPINADHAN) Date: Thu, 28 May 09 14:47:33 +0000 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086470.23782.10408659181138558181.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Another Sanskrit film is "Bhagavatgita". I saw the film in 2002 on the occasion of an International Conference on Bhagavat gits held at Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala. Both films were appeared in the national television channels before 10 or 15 years. JAGANADH.G LINGUIST HDG-LTS C-DAC VELAYAMBALAM THIRUVANANTHAPURAM P-H+91 9895420624 E-MAIL- jaganadh at cdactvm.in,navadipanyaya at hotmail.com/jaganadhg at gmail.com http://sabdabodha.googlepages.com www.malayalammorph.blogspot.com www.malayalamresourceceter.org > Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:15:14 +0200 > From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE > Subject: Re: The Film Adi Shankaracharya > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Am 24.05.2009 um 09:58 schrieb Jonathan Silk: > > > I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi > > Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) > > feature film > > in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or > > others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? > > There is a German Ph.D. thesis on this film: > > Mangold, Sylvia: ?di ?a?kar?c?rya? : G. V. Iyers Filmkommentar > zur Religionsphilosophie ?a?karas. - Frankfurt am Main [et al.] : > Lang, 1994. - XII, 248 p. - (Theion ; 4). - ISBN 3-631-47352-4 > Frankfurt (Main), Univ., Diss., 1993 > > By the way, the complete movie is available on Google Video: > URL: > > All the best > Peter Wyzlic > -- > Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften > Abteilung f?r Indologie > Universit?t Bonn > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > 53113 Bonn _________________________________________________________________ Live Search extreme As India feels the heat of poll season, get all the info you need on the MSN News Aggregator http://news.in.msn.com/National/indiaelections2009/aggregator/default.aspx From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Thu May 28 19:32:21 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Thu, 28 May 09 15:32:21 -0400 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227086474.23782.5841801453410737010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- >From: JAGANADH GOPINADHAN >Sent: May 28, 2009 10:47 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Re: The Film Adi Shankaracharya > > >Another Sanskrit film is "Bhagavatgita". I saw the film in 2002 on the occasion of an International Conference on Bhagavat gits held at Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala. >Both films were appeared in the national television channels before 10 or 15 years. > > >JAGANADH.G >LINGUIST >HDG-LTS >C-DAC >VELAYAMBALAM >THIRUVANANTHAPURAM >P-H+91 9895420624 >E-MAIL- jaganadh at cdactvm.in,navadipanyaya at hotmail.com/jaganadhg at gmail.com >http://sabdabodha.googlepages.com >www.malayalammorph.blogspot.com >www.malayalamresourceceter.org > > > >> Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:15:14 +0200 >> From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE >> Subject: Re: The Film Adi Shankaracharya >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> >> Am 24.05.2009 um 09:58 schrieb Jonathan Silk: >> >> > I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi >> > Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) >> > feature film >> > in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or >> > others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? >> >> There is a German Ph.D. thesis on this film: >> >> Mangold, Sylvia: ?di ?a?kar?c?rya? : G. V. Iyers Filmkommentar >> zur Religionsphilosophie ?a?karas. - Frankfurt am Main [et al.] : >> Lang, 1994. - XII, 248 p. - (Theion ; 4). - ISBN 3-631-47352-4 >> Frankfurt (Main), Univ., Diss., 1993 >> >> By the way, the complete movie is available on Google Video: >> URL: >> >> All the best >> Peter Wyzlic >> -- >> Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften >> Abteilung f?r Indologie >> Universit?t Bonn >> Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 >> 53113 Bonn > >_________________________________________________________________ >Live Search extreme As India feels the heat of poll season, get all the info you need on the MSN News Aggregator >http://news.in.msn.com/National/indiaelections2009/aggregator/default.aspx From frederick-smith at UIOWA.EDU Thu May 28 22:18:51 2009 From: frederick-smith at UIOWA.EDU (Smith, Frederick M) Date: Thu, 28 May 09 17:18:51 -0500 Subject: Ageusia In-Reply-To: <0CB614EE54B7446BA5516274F01202F5@meulenbeld> Message-ID: <161227086477.23782.3126921984699510802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Also: arasajJataa Caraka (Suutrasthaana) 1.28.8: tatra rasaadiSu sthaaneSu prakupitaanaaM doSaaNaaM yasmin sthaane ye ye vyaadhayaH saMbhavanti taaMstaan yathaavad anuvyaakhyaasyaamaH // 1.28.9: azraddhaa caaruciz caasyavairasyam arasajJataa / hRllaaso gauravaM tandraa saaGgamardo jvarastamaH // Regards, Fred Smith On 5/27/09 4:17 AM, "G.J. Meulenbeld" wrote: Dear colleague, Ageusia as a distinct syndrome is found in a late ayurvedic text, the Nigha.n.turatnaakara, compiled by Vi.s.nu Vaasudeva Go.dbole and his associates (see on this text my "History of Indian medical literature", IIA, 365--368), bhaag duusraa 401: bhu~njaanasya narasyaanna.m madhuraprabh.rtiin rasaan / rasanaa yan na jaanaati rasaaj~naana.m tad ucyate // Verses on its treatment follow. The same verse on rasaaj~naana, is also found in Vallabhendra's Vaidyacintaama.ni, a text of uncertain date but much earlier (see again IIA, 481--489), chapter 10, p.171 . I hope this will help, best wishes, Jan Meulenbeld ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Hodge" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:06 AM Subject: Ageusia > Dear all, > > Does anybody familiar with Ayurvedic material know if there is a Sanskrit > term for "aguesia" ~ the inability to taste ? > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Fri May 29 02:33:56 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 28 May 09 19:33:56 -0700 Subject: Ageusia In-Reply-To: <28917_1243552011_1243552011_A9FE2F7A576B4A408058FE253DE032DF@zen> Message-ID: <161227086484.23782.13344487733970445313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen, It would be better to share the passage with your potential helpers along with your translation of it, however tentative the translation may be. The context you have specified now suggests that a search is medical texts was unnecessary. Taste buds damaged by drinking too hot a liquid or eating too hot a morsel of food may make one loose taste, probably partially and temporarily, without generating a medical condition. Only a more extensive statement on the context coming from you, accompanied by a faithful translation of the rest of the words in the passage, will tell us if we should think of possibilities such as dagdha-jihva. ashok aklujkar On 5/28/09 4:09 PM, "Stephen Hodge" wrote: > My context specifically highlights the loss of taste > aspect. The sources (Tibetan and Chinese, as usual) I am investigating > suggest an underlying term that should comprise "burnt / parched / scorched > + lips / tongue". This most obviously suggests > vi'su.ka-jihvaa-taaluuna-ka.n.tha, but I am not sure if this also implies > the loss of taste that is required contextually. I had wondered if there > was another Skt term that could have been used here. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Thu May 28 23:09:11 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 00:09:11 +0100 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086481.23782.7819772977998562408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, I thank everybody who answered my query and made useful suggestions. It is interesting that there is often no clear distinction between loss of taste and loss of appetite ~ though naturally I suppose the latter does not presuppose the former. My context specifically highlights the loss of taste aspect. The sources (Tibetan and Chinese, as usual) I am investigating suggest an underlying term that should comprise "burnt / parched / scorched + lips / tongue". This most obviously suggests vi'su.ka-jihvaa-taaluuna-ka.n.tha, but I am not sure if this also implies the loss of taste that is required contextually. I had wondered if there was another Skt term that could have been used here. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From joseph.walser at TUFTS.EDU Fri May 29 13:25:10 2009 From: joseph.walser at TUFTS.EDU (Joseph Walser) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 09:25:10 -0400 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086497.23782.12737876885319771995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How about the Prasannapada? -j Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature > has become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, > Mahabhasya, Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra > and jyotisa texts, Buddhist literature, much else. > > What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been > input yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text? I > wonder if we can put together a prioritized list? > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk -- Joseph Walser Associate Professor Department of Religion Tufts University 126 Curtis Street Medford, MA 02155 Office: 617 627-2322 From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Fri May 29 14:00:57 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 10:00:57 -0400 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086508.23782.13520006003098979782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik and all, Is there somewhere a list which kAvyas, mahAkAvyas and dramas are accessible as e-texts? In particular, it would be very useful if all the major dramas WITh the Prakrit parts (and chAyA) could be easily accessible. Also, judging by the programmes of the last three World Sanskrit Conferences it seems to me that les belles lettres are being neglected in favour of grammar, philosophy, epics and Puranas. Best regards to all Stella Sandahl -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 29-May-09, at 8:47 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit > literature has become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, > Ramayana, Mahabhasya, Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, > dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, Buddhist literature, much else. > > What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't > been input yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e- > text? I wonder if we can put together a prioritized list? > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Fri May 29 08:22:29 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van bijlert) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 10:22:29 +0200 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086488.23782.14890360793174927336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there also a link online to this film. I was able to download the Sankaracharya film from Google videos and watch it on the ipod. Many thanks for these interesting discussions Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens JAGANADH GOPINADHAN Verzonden: donderdag 28 mei 2009 16:48 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: The Film Adi Shankaracharya Another Sanskrit film is "Bhagavatgita". I saw the film in 2002 on the occasion of an International Conference on Bhagavat gits held at Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala. Both films were appeared in the national television channels before 10 or 15 years. JAGANADH.G LINGUIST HDG-LTS C-DAC VELAYAMBALAM THIRUVANANTHAPURAM P-H+91 9895420624 E-MAIL- jaganadh at cdactvm.in,navadipanyaya at hotmail.com/jaganadhg at gmail.com http://sabdabodha.googlepages.com www.malayalammorph.blogspot.com www.malayalamresourceceter.org > Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:15:14 +0200 > From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE > Subject: Re: The Film Adi Shankaracharya > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Am 24.05.2009 um 09:58 schrieb Jonathan Silk: > > > I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi > > Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) > > feature film > > in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or > > others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? > > There is a German Ph.D. thesis on this film: > > Mangold, Sylvia: ?di ?a?kar?c?rya? : G. V. Iyers Filmkommentar > zur Religionsphilosophie ?a?karas. - Frankfurt am Main [et al.] : > Lang, 1994. - XII, 248 p. - (Theion ; 4). - ISBN 3-631-47352-4 > Frankfurt (Main), Univ., Diss., 1993 > > By the way, the complete movie is available on Google Video: > URL: > > All the best > Peter Wyzlic > -- > Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften > Abteilung f?r Indologie > Universit?t Bonn > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > 53113 Bonn _________________________________________________________________ Live Search extreme As India feels the heat of poll season, get all the info you need on the MSN News Aggregator http://news.in.msn.com/National/indiaelections2009/aggregator/default.aspx From navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 29 13:16:01 2009 From: navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM (JAGANADH GOPINADHAN) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 13:16:01 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit IAST data entry tool In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086494.23782.717320454400059351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends Which is the best tool to data entry Sanskrit text in IAST from(Unicode). e.g Text with diacritics. (A????gah?daya) Please provide the name of font and tool can be used to enter Devanagari text in the above given format. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ JAGANADH.G LINGUIST HDG-LTS C-DAC VELAYAMBALAM THIRUVANANTHAPURAM P-H+91 9895420624 E-MAIL- jaganadh at cdactvm.in,navadipanyaya at hotmail.com/jaganadhg at gmail.com http://sabdabodha.googlepages.com www.malayalammorph.blogspot.com www.malayalamresourceceter.org _________________________________________________________________ Planning the weekend ? Here?s what is happening in your town. http://msn.asklaila.com/events/ From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Fri May 29 12:47:26 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 14:47:26 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text Message-ID: <161227086491.23782.11550854300071959113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature has become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Mahabhasya, Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, Buddhist literature, much else. What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been input yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text? I wonder if we can put together a prioritized list? Best, Dominik Wujastyk From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Fri May 29 13:58:31 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 15:58:31 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: <97916.95844.qm@web8606.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227086504.23782.4130729619921067636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just two notes: I believe there are etexts of the Prasannapada (I have one very old one--I won't vouch for its quality), and now that we have several versions of the Pali tipitaka electronically, the value of scanning an edition like the Nalanda one is highly questionable. I mention these cases only to emphasize that if there is going to be effort put into something like this, it behooves those who will be involved to do some careful homework first. Very best, and lots of energy! jonathan On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya < dbhattacharya2004 at yahoo.co.in> wrote: > E-publications can serve their purpose the best when out-of-print/ or > difficult-to-purchase books are made available thru them. Examples > 1.The Nalanda edition of the Tripitaka in Devnagari > 2.Aryabhatiyam with Bhaskara 1 and Parameshvara > Best for all > DB > > > --- On Fri, 29/5/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > From: Dominik Wujastyk > Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Friday, 29 May, 2009, 6:17 PM > > > In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature has > become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Mahabhasya, > Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, > Buddhist literature, much else. > > What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been input > yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text? I wonder if we > can put together a prioritized list? > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > > > > Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to > http://in.business.yahoo.com/ > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From sellmers at GMX.DE Fri May 29 14:14:43 2009 From: sellmers at GMX.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 16:14:43 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086512.23782.4646270818747134862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree with Stella Sandahl: dramas and k?vya, if possible accompanied by commentaries, should be among the priorities. The only list I know of is the GRETIL one. Best wishes, Sven Sellmer Am 29.05.2009 um 16:00 schrieb Stella Sandahl: > Dear Dominik and all, > Is there somewhere a list which kAvyas, mahAkAvyas and dramas are > accessible as e-texts? > In particular, it would be very useful if all the major dramas WITh > the Prakrit parts (and chAyA) could be easily accessible. > > Also, judging by the programmes of the last three World Sanskrit > Conferences it seems to me that les belles lettres are being neglected > in favour of grammar, philosophy, epics and Puranas. > Best regards to all > Stella Sandahl > > -- > Stella Sandahl > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > > > > On 29-May-09, at 8:47 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >> In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit >> literature has become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, >> Ramayana, Mahabhasya, Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, >> dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, Buddhist literature, much else. >> >> What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't >> been input yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e- >> text? I wonder if we can put together a prioritized list? >> >> Best, >> Dominik Wujastyk >> From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Fri May 29 21:51:05 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 17:51:05 -0400 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: <4CFBB50329D349BFBB8307FD01A178D0@zen> Message-ID: <161227086528.23782.1816759971138708989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is Sayana online anywhere? I have looked, but have not found... George Thompson > From xadxura at GMAIL.COM Sat May 30 00:55:30 2009 From: xadxura at GMAIL.COM (Andrew Glass) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 17:55:30 -0700 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: <76c1007b0905291302w4df5da65g9760ed210e35f6b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227086532.23782.5581697013170286484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Based solely on the publication date, the BHSD should still be under copyright, therefore, making an etext of this work is a potential violation of copyright. With this concern in mind I wrote to Yale UP some years ago and asked for permission to create an etext. They did not reply. It may be that the copyright was transferred to Motilal, but this is just a guess based on the case of Brough's Gandhari Dharmapada. With this in mind the EBMP (www.ebmp.org) made an index to the headwords in the BHSD. It has been my intention to make this index available to the public, but I have not had time to do that yet. At least as an index we can tell whether or not a word is in BHSD. I have a number of things to do this weekend, but may have time to make this index publicly available - I will notify this list when ready. I heard some years ago that a full etext did exist but never saw any evidence of this myself. Andrew From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri May 29 13:46:04 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 19:16:04 +0530 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text Message-ID: <161227086500.23782.11413742797130216509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> E-publications can serve their purpose the best when out-of-print/ or difficult-to-purchase books are made available thru them. Examples 1.The Nalanda edition of the Tripitaka in Devnagari 2.Aryabhatiyam with Bhaskara 1 and Parameshvara Best for all DB --- On Fri, 29/5/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 29 May, 2009, 6:17 PM In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature has become available in e-text form.? Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Mahabhasya, Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, Buddhist literature, much else. What next?? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been input yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text?? I wonder if we can put together a prioritized list? Best, Dominik Wujastyk Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Fri May 29 19:41:17 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 20:41:17 +0100 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086516.23782.2127810603418003596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > It would be better to share the passage with your potential helpers. Sorry to have been unintentionally a bit cryptic. Actually, with a bit more thought, I think I have solved the problem myself. The term I was looking for may have been "?u?ka" or perhaps "sa??u?ka", used as a pun in the context, though "dagdha" is also a possibilty. Needless to say, the pun has got lost in translation. The problem was that I was not fully aware that "?u?ka" has other secondary meanings, especially as I was just looking at the more common (in Buddist texts) "vi?u?ka". The passage occurs in the Mah?yana Mah?parinirv??a-s?tra, with glosses bracketed off thus < ... >: gsol pa | sems can | tshig pa rnams ci las 'gyur lags || bka' stsal pa | gzhi gsum rtag pa mi shes pa gang yin pa de dag ni sems can | tshig par 'gyur ro || dper na mi lce tshig pa rnams kyis ro drug ste | mngar ba dang | skyur ba dang | lan tshwa'i ro dang | tsha ba dang | kha ba dang | bska ba rnams za ba na ro'i bye brag mi phyed pa de bzhin du sems can mi shes pa | lce dang | rkan dang | lkog ma tshig pa | gzhi gsum rtag par mi shes pa gang yin pa de dag ni | tshig pa zhes bya'o || "How come there are beings who are/have parched ?" "Those who do not know the Three Bases [= Three Jewels] are permanent become beings are burnt/parched. For example, humans who tongues are burnt/parched are unable to distinguish the differences between the six tastes when they eat anything sweet, sour, salty, bitter, pungent or astringent. Similarly, ignorant beings , whose tongues are burnt/parched, who do not know that the three grounds are permanent, are said to be/have "?u?ka" < tongues, palates and throats>. This is not the place to describe in detail the many peculiarities of the Tibetan version of the Mah?yana Mah?parinirv??a-s?tra, but reading this against the two Chinese versions, it is now clear to me that the Tibetan text has incorporated two glosses into the body of the text ~ which is typical for this text which had been heavily annotated several times during its transmission. Originally, I assume the text would have just read "How come there are people who are ?u?ka ?" ~ in the primary sense of "frightening, harsh" and punning secondarily as "with parched /burnt mouths" (as with pretas). First, the gloss of "tongue, plate and throat" was added in several places at an early stage and so is common to the Chinese and the Tibetan versions, and later the gloss "ma rungs pa 'jigs su rung ba" (harsh, frightening) was also added ~ but only in the Tibetan ms lineage. I would also imagine that some of the other connotations of "?u?ka", if that was the word used, are also implied here well such as "vain, useless". As a footnote to this, if they have bothered to read this far, I wonder if anybody (Jonathan, Matthew ?) has come across the expression "gzhi gsum" for the tri-ratna ? This is used consistedly by preference throughout the Mah?parinirv??a-s?tra>. Maybe I haven't read attentively / widely enough (I do try, though), but I have never seen this term used in any other Tibetan translations of Indic texts. It would be nice to know what the underlying Skt word here would have been. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Fri May 29 19:46:31 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 20:46:31 +0100 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text Message-ID: <161227086520.23782.10632475659542484221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not a Devanagari text so not relevent here, but it would be *immensely* helpful if Edgerton's Dictionary of Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit could ever be made into an e-text. It would be a very big job, even with OCR and there may be problems with copyright still. Or is there a secret copy already in private circulation ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK Fri May 29 20:02:30 2009 From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 21:02:30 +0100 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086524.23782.17983435369646553486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Even speaking as a non-Buddhologist, I would enthusiastically welcome Stephen's suggestion of an Edgerton e-text, and would be equally interested in any samizdat copy there may be. Whitney 2009/5/29 Stephen Hodge : > Not a Devanagari text so not relevent here, but it would be *immensely* > helpful if Edgerton's Dictionary of Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit could ever be > made into an e-text. ?It would be a very big job, even with OCR and there > may be problems with copyright still. ?Or is there a secret copy already in > private circulation ? > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge > -- Dr. Whitney Cox Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia, School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London WC1H 0XG From Loriliai.Biernacki at COLORADO.EDU Sat May 30 07:10:10 2009 From: Loriliai.Biernacki at COLORADO.EDU (Loriliai Biernacki) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 01:10:10 -0600 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: <20090530014436.BYK80877@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227086555.23782.207335866288718032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd really like to see some of the lesser studied Tantric texts, for starters, the Gandharva Tantra and the several volumes available in the Tantrasa?graha Series edited by V.V Dvivedi in the Yogatantra-Grantham?l? published by Sampurnanand Sanskrit University and Brahm?nanda Giri's ??kt?nandatara?gi??. -- Loriliai Biernacki Associate Professor University of Colorado at Boulder UCB 292 Boulder, CO 80309 303-735-4730 Loriliai.Biernacki at colorado.edu http://www.colorado.edu/ReligiousStudies/faculty/loriliai.biernacki.html > Among philosophical works, I have not so far found > e-texts of (pardon the omitted diacritical marks): > > Santaraksita's Tattvasamgraha and its Panjika > > Sarvadarsanasamgraha attr. to Sayanamadhava (or to Ceni Bhatta) > > Haribhadrasuri's Saddarsanasamuccaya and its comms. > > And very little Jaina philosophy in general seems > so far available. The > encyclopedic nature of the three texts mentioned above, however, > recommends them I think rather strongly. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Sat May 30 06:24:13 2009 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 01:24:13 -0500 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086543.23782.13008039714194975380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be very interested in getting two classes of texts: the philosophical commentaries, e.g. Sankara on the Brahmasutras, etc., and second, the major commentaries and nibandhas of the Dharmasastric genre from the early medieval period -- e.g. Mitaksara of Vijanesvara, Smriticandrika of Devannabhatta, or even the voluminous Krityakalpataru of Laksmidhara. Patrick From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Sat May 30 06:44:36 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 01:44:36 -0500 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB09AB0488@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227086551.23782.12905334073918566976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Among philosophical works, I have not so far found e-texts of (pardon the omitted diacritical marks): Santaraksita's Tattvasamgraha and its Panjika Sarvadarsanasamgraha attr. to Sayanamadhava (or to Ceni Bhatta) Haribhadrasuri's Saddarsanasamuccaya and its comms. And very little Jaina philosophy in general seems so far available. The encyclopedic nature of the three texts mentioned above, however, recommends them I think rather strongly. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Sat May 30 07:28:09 2009 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 03:28:09 -0400 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text Message-ID: <161227086559.23782.13000133290094723236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Following up on Jonathan Silk's observation that an e-text version of Prasannapada is already available, it can be found online, downloadable chapter by chapter, both in romanized and devanagri: http://www.uwest.edu/sanskritcanon/ (devanagri) http://www.uwest.edu/sanskritcanon/dp/index.php?q=node/35&textID=364a0241f1c530e758a (romanized) http://www.uwest.edu/sanskritcanon/dp/index.php?q=node%2F35&textID=305d32f810d503783cb Dan Lusthaus From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 30 05:40:55 2009 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 05:40:55 +0000 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086536.23782.15945172272045634659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> - I would second George Thompson's suggestion that the time is now ripe to amplify the almost complete collection of Vedic e-texts with the important commentaries of Saaya.na, pseudo-Saaya.na, Bha.t.ta Bhaaskara Mi"sra, and others.- I would suspect that commentaries in other textual traditions have also tended to be skipped in the first, prolific, phase of e-text-creation which Dominik refers to.- What about Ko"sas? At least on GRETIL, we only seem to have Amarako"sa (without commentaries). - There are several important epigraphical corpora printed in Devanagari script which it would be delightful to have in searchable romanized form. Best wishes from Saigon, Arlo Griffiths ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 14:47:26 +0200 > From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK > Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature has > become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Mahabhasya, > Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, > Buddhist literature, much else. > > What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been input > yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text? I wonder if we > can put together a prioritized list? > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk _________________________________________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Sat May 30 05:51:36 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 07:51:36 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086540.23782.577571743959325784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have the impression that in addition to the materials publicly or semi-publicly available, there are also --perhaps substantial--materials privately input, perhaps in so-called legacy systems. It might be profitable to try to make an effort to bring such things into general circulation as well, even if this means a certain amount of conversion is also necessary--probably better than starting over. I have, for instance, heard that German scholars, perhaps those associated with the Turfan project(s), have a huge database of Buddhist Sanskrit materials, much of which is not otherwise, as far as I know, available, but that it resides in some dinosaur-era format... Moreover, of course, many people input things themselves, and circulate them to their friends and colleagues; if one is lucky enough to encounter such a person while in possession of a large hard drive... well, there must be a more systematic way to go about this. very best, jonathan > > ---------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 14:47:26 +0200 > > From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK > > Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text > > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > > > In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature > has > > become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Mahabhasya, > > Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra and jyotisa > texts, > > Buddhist literature, much else. > > > > What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been input > > yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text? I wonder if we > > can put together a prioritized list? > > > > Best, > > Dominik Wujastyk > > _________________________________________________________________ > See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Sat May 30 06:32:16 2009 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 08:32:16 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086548.23782.13483926894930178068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To Patrick's suggestions, I would add Mitramisra's Viramitrodaya. KZ -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Patrick Olivelle Sent: 30 May 2009 08:24 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text I would be very interested in getting two classes of texts: the philosophical commentaries, e.g. Sankara on the Brahmasutras, etc., and second, the major commentaries and nibandhas of the Dharmasastric genre from the early medieval period -- e.g. Mitaksara of Vijanesvara, Smriticandrika of Devannabhatta, or even the voluminous Krityakalpataru of Laksmidhara. Patrick From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sat May 30 07:43:55 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 09:43:55 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086562.23782.3453949849102456748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan Silk wrote: > I have the impression that in addition to the materials publicly or > semi-publicly available, there are also --perhaps substantial--materials > privately input, perhaps in so-called legacy systems. It might be profitable > to try to make an effort to bring such things into general circulation as > well, even if this means a certain amount of conversion is also > necessary--probably better than starting over. I have, for instance, heard > that German scholars, perhaps those associated with the Turfan project(s), > have a huge database of Buddhist Sanskrit materials, much of which is not > otherwise, as far as I know, available, but that it resides in some > dinosaur-era format... Moreover, of course, many people input things > themselves, and circulate them to their friends and colleagues; if one is > lucky enough to encounter such a person while in possession of a large hard > drive... well, there must be a more systematic way to go about this. > > very best, jonathan > > In general, the response to Dominik's query suggests it would be worthwhile working towards an inventory of works that are already available electronically: either in searchable format or as image scans (the latter might be useful to know for people who'd like to produce searchable versions, which in some cases may work well with OCR). Even if the e-texts themselves are not accessible publicly, for whatever reasons (dinosaur format or copyright issues), it would be useful to know that they exist. I believe it would be possible to gradually create such an inventory as a web database: collaborative, with users able to create an account and post information about texts that they have entered (and links to where they can be found, if possible), and ideally with a redactor who oversees the general accuracy of information and also keeps his or her eyes open and adds information on his/her own. If individual e-text repositories also publish their new additions in a standardized format (an RSS feed), such information could also be processed automatically. A combination of community effort, some redacting and entry on the part of a designated person, and automatized tools, might be a good way to keep the effort necessary to create such an inventory and keep it up to date within reasonable limits. It would also be a good way to make the best of the current situation, likely to continue, that there are, after all, a number of repositories (GRETIL, Buddhist canon, TITUS, SARIT, etc.) that keep growing and developing. There is really no reason, I believe, why people should reduplicate the work of others. Especially when it's as tiresome as producing electronic texts. All the best, Birgit From hwtull at MSN.COM Sat May 30 15:15:43 2009 From: hwtull at MSN.COM (Herman Tull) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 11:15:43 -0400 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086574.23782.9062736310024782934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Looking at the responses to this post, I wonder if anyone has compiled a comprehensive list of available Sanskrit e-texts and the collections where they can be located? I am not a "full-time" Sanskritist, and I find that when I do need a text, it can necessitate long hours of searching through the different collections and databases. Herman Tull Princeton, NJ -------------------------------------------------- From: "Birgit Kellner" Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 10:55 AM To: Subject: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text > Peter Wyzlic wrote: >> Am 30.05.2009 um 08:44 schrieb mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU: >> >>> Among philosophical works, I have not so far found >>> e-texts of (pardon the omitted diacritical marks): >>> >>> Santaraksita's Tattvasamgraha and its Panjika >>> >>> Sarvadarsanasamgraha attr. to Sayanamadhava (or to Ceni Bhatta) >>> >>> Haribhadrasuri's Saddarsanasamuccaya and its comms. >> >> Scanned versions (without searchable e-text) are made available by the >> Digital Library of India (Bangalore division). Unfortunately, the access >> is not very user-friendly (and the URLs are not easy to cite, therefore >> shortened here): >> >> E.g. Tattvasa?graha vol. 1 ed. E. Krishnamacharya: >> >> Tattvasa?graha, vol. 2: >> Sarvadar?anasa?graha ed. V.S. Abhyankar: >> ?a?dar?anasamuccaya ed. L. Suali: and >> > The Tattvasa?graha and the -pa?jik? were at some point made available as > e-texts by Jong Cheol Lee, as were a numer of other Buddhist texts, as > part of a project called "Sanskrit Database for a Polyglot Buddhist > Dictionary". These e-texts do circulate, but they do not seem to be > available for download from any website officially. I also don't know what > became of Lee's project. > > The ?a??ar?anasamuccaya (Suali ed.) was digitized by Muneo Tokunaga, with > Gu?aratna's commentary, and can be found here: > http://tiger.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/mtokunag/skt_texts/SaDDS.txt (Kyoto-Harvard > transliteration). > > Best regards, > > Birgit Kellner > From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Sat May 30 09:36:59 2009 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 11:36:59 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086565.23782.10666233556805424193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 30.05.2009 um 09:10 schrieb Loriliai Biernacki: > I'd really like to see some of the lesser studied Tantric texts, for > starters, the Gandharva Tantra and the several volumes available in > the > Tantrasa?graha Series edited by V.V Dvivedi in the Yogatantra- > Grantham?l? > published by Sampurnanand Sanskrit University and Brahm?nanda Giri's > ??kt?nandatara?gi??. The ??kt?nandatara?gi??, at least, is available via Muktabodha. All the best Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 53113 Bonn From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Sat May 30 10:26:20 2009 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 12:26:20 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: <20090530014436.BYK80877@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227086568.23782.1858418926428972733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 30.05.2009 um 08:44 schrieb mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU: > Among philosophical works, I have not so far found > e-texts of (pardon the omitted diacritical marks): > > Santaraksita's Tattvasamgraha and its Panjika > > Sarvadarsanasamgraha attr. to Sayanamadhava (or to Ceni Bhatta) > > Haribhadrasuri's Saddarsanasamuccaya and its comms. Scanned versions (without searchable e-text) are made available by the Digital Library of India (Bangalore division). Unfortunately, the access is not very user-friendly (and the URLs are not easy to cite, therefore shortened here): E.g. Tattvasa?graha vol. 1 ed. E. Krishnamacharya: Tattvasa?graha, vol. 2: Sarvadar?anasa?graha ed. V.S. Abhyankar: ?a?dar?anasamuccaya ed. L. Suali: and > And very little Jaina philosophy in general seems > so far available. The > encyclopedic nature of the three texts mentioned above, however, > recommends them I think rather strongly. In 2007, a Jain association in the US brought out two DVDs with Jaina e-texts and scans. It was called "Jaina e-Library". Their web address was or still is: http://www.jaina.org Hope it helps Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 53113 Bonn From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Sat May 30 18:36:40 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 13:36:40 -0500 Subject: gzhi gsum In-Reply-To: <721C88B3EBB64A5886CFC4D9EE13EB64@zen> Message-ID: <161227086579.23782.18273099100793011294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stephen, I am familiar with gzhi gsum as a Vinaya term, referring to the three basic rites of po.sadha, upavaasa, and pravara.na. But this does not seem to be suitable for your context. As Stein pointed out (Tibetica Antiqua I), the conventions adopted in Tibetan translations from Chinese are sometimes quite different from the "standard" Tibetan Buddhist vocabulary, and have not so far been very extensively documented -- Stein's work was a great start, but much remains to be done. best, Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sat May 30 22:01:50 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 15:01:50 -0700 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086582.23782.5035257183393394070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding Andrew?s comments on BHSD, let me add that I would be happy to commit further resources to a complete digitization if and only if we are legally clear. Maybe somebody with connections at Yale could politely inquire? The Motilal reprint on my desk says ?By arrangement with Yale University Press, New Haven,? so that seems to be a licensed print for the Indian market, not a transfer of copyright. Cheers, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sat May 30 14:55:11 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 16:55:11 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086571.23782.3814955989761416292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter Wyzlic wrote: > Am 30.05.2009 um 08:44 schrieb mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU: > >> Among philosophical works, I have not so far found >> e-texts of (pardon the omitted diacritical marks): >> >> Santaraksita's Tattvasamgraha and its Panjika >> >> Sarvadarsanasamgraha attr. to Sayanamadhava (or to Ceni Bhatta) >> >> Haribhadrasuri's Saddarsanasamuccaya and its comms. > > Scanned versions (without searchable e-text) are made available by the > Digital Library of India (Bangalore division). Unfortunately, the > access is not very user-friendly (and the URLs are not easy to cite, > therefore shortened here): > > E.g. Tattvasa?graha vol. 1 ed. E. Krishnamacharya: > > Tattvasa?graha, vol. 2: > Sarvadar?anasa?graha ed. V.S. Abhyankar: > ?a?dar?anasamuccaya ed. L. Suali: and > The Tattvasa?graha and the -pa?jik? were at some point made available as e-texts by Jong Cheol Lee, as were a numer of other Buddhist texts, as part of a project called "Sanskrit Database for a Polyglot Buddhist Dictionary". These e-texts do circulate, but they do not seem to be available for download from any website officially. I also don't know what became of Lee's project. The ?a??ar?anasamuccaya (Suali ed.) was digitized by Muneo Tokunaga, with Gu?aratna's commentary, and can be found here: http://tiger.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/mtokunag/skt_texts/SaDDS.txt (Kyoto-Harvard transliteration). Best regards, Birgit Kellner From pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM Sat May 30 18:11:37 2009 From: pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM (Pankaj Jain) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 19:11:37 +0100 Subject: Movies on Shankaracharya et al AND saving word docs as pdf Message-ID: <161227086577.23782.12411779891882957511.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> G V Iyer (the maker of Sanskrit film on Adi Shankaracharya) also made films on other great Hindu figures: Ramanujacharya (in Tamil) can be bought at: http://www.thekrishnastore.com/Detail.bok?no=827&bar Madhvacharya (in Kannada)can be bought at: http://www.vedanta.com/store/product361.html Also, regarding saving word documents as pdf, I would like to share that MS-Word 2007 has a built-in option for this, just click on save as and then choose pdf (you will need to install a microsoft plugin to enable this feature, available at: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=4d951911-3e7e-4ae6-b059-a2e79ed87041&displaylang=en ) Hope this helps, Best, Pankaj ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Pankaj Jain पंकज ज&#2376;न, Department of Religion and Philosophy, Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures, North Carolina State University. http://www.IndicUniversity.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From frederick-smith at UIOWA.EDU Sun May 31 01:15:50 2009 From: frederick-smith at UIOWA.EDU (Smith, Frederick M) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 20:15:50 -0500 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086586.23782.4031987035498017273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tantravarttika by Kumarila Bhatta. All available comms, on Yogasutras. But, Jonathan and others are right, we do need a single list of what's out there. Fred Smith On 5/29/09 7:47 AM, "Dominik Wujastyk" wrote: In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature has become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Mahabhasya, Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, Buddhist literature, much else. What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been input yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text? I wonder if we can put together a prioritized list? Best, Dominik Wujastyk From fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 31 01:36:59 2009 From: fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 21:36:59 -0400 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086589.23782.14105685160502232952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> And I thought dealing with Sanskrit lists of pilgrimage sites could be unruly! A single list would indeed be a feat of ever growing proportions. . listenwissenschaft in practice! Best Wishes, BF On 5/30/09 9:15 PM, "Smith, Frederick M" wrote: > But, Jonathan and others are right, we do need a single list of what's out > there. > > Fred Smith From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Sat May 30 23:45:53 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 31 May 09 00:45:53 +0100 Subject: gzhi gsum Message-ID: <161227086584.23782.16813417252286964291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Matthew, Thanks for your Vinaya suggestion ~ though, of course it does not fit as you yourself mention. > As Stein pointed out (Tibetica Antiqua I), > the conventions adopted in Tibetan translations >from Chinese are sometimes quite different from >the "standard" Tibetan Buddhist vocabulary. Very true, but this is not a translation from Chinese at all ~ I am not working with the secondary translation into Tibetan, of Dharmaksema's "extended" Chinese text, even though that happens to be popular with Tibetan writers. Actually the parallel Chinese versions by Faxian and Dharmaskema of the Indic text of the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana-sutra, each ultimately based on the same ancestral South Indian text as the Tibetan text, are unhelpful since they have in most cases converted the "gzhi gsum" into a simple "san bao" (Three Jewels). As for possible Skt candidates, it is a probably a toss up between "vastu" or "bhaava" for "gzhi". I am interested because it seems an unusual expression, and I wondered whether it might be a idiosyncratic term of choice among whichever Mahasanghika sub-group produced the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana-sutra in the first place. This is not unimportant since the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana-sutra spends quite a bit of time discussing the Three Jewels in the guise of these "gzhi gsum" (and never "dkon mchog gsum"), when they are eventually subsumed into the buddha-dhaatu and thus interiorized as a personal, internal refuge. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Sun May 31 08:14:21 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Sun, 31 May 09 03:14:21 -0500 Subject: gzhi gsum In-Reply-To: <3CDA3001BEBD410BBB5EEC13409ACF32@zen> Message-ID: <161227086591.23782.16052695573716698845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stephen, It's indeed an interesting locution, particularly given that the source text is Indic. I suspect you're right to think that vastu is a better candidate than bhaava, but have you ruled out aazraya? In any case, if the Chinese versions are using sanbao throughout, they're of no help at all here. Do you find anything in the Turfan fragments edited by Waldschmidt? Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From fifield at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun May 31 16:27:14 2009 From: fifield at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Justin A. Fifield) Date: Sun, 31 May 09 12:27:14 -0400 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: <20090530220150.GA5474@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086596.23782.15539274053523979952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, I have a scanned copy of the BHSD in .pdf and .jpg that could serve as a basis for an e-text (provided the copyright issues are settled; this scan I did myself from the Motilal publication). However, this file is _very_ big, running over half a gig. I'm not quite sure how to reduce the size in a way that preserves the quality of the text. Please let me know if these files could be of some use. Best, Justin Fifield Ph.D. Candidate Study of Religion Harvard University Stefan Baums wrote: > Regarding Andrew?s comments on BHSD, let me add that I would be > happy to commit further resources to a complete digitization if > and only if we are legally clear. Maybe somebody with connections > at Yale could politely inquire? The Motilal reprint on my desk > says ?By arrangement with Yale University Press, New Haven,? so > that seems to be a licensed print for the Indian market, not a > transfer of copyright. > > Cheers, > Stefan > > From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Sun May 31 11:40:58 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Sun, 31 May 09 13:40:58 +0200 Subject: Choice of meter for writing a treatise: s'loka vs. aaryaa Message-ID: <161227086594.23782.12999978088433470314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, being engaged in a study of the popularity of various meters in the Tamil speaking world, I would welcome informations on the reasons (or the background) for the choice of meter while writing a treatise in Sanskrit. Are there for instance articles/books examining, explaining or suggesting reasons why the V?kyapad?ya was composed in ?loka-s whereas the S??khyak?rik? was composed in ?ry?? (I hope I am not mistaken) Is this simply a consequence of the date of their compositions? Thanks for any pointers -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)