From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Mar 1 07:03:29 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 09 23:03:29 -0800 Subject: Krishna as Vishnu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085141.23782.499178176739315893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> on 2/28/2009 5:04 AM Harsha Dehejia wrote: > Friends: > > I am researching multi-arm images of Krishna. > It seems to be that at some point Krishna ceases to be an avatara and becomes Vishnu himself. > This book will be useful. Matchett, Freda. 2001. Krsna, Lord or Avatara?: The Relationship Between Krsna and Visnu in the Context of the Avatara Myth As Presented by the Harivamsa, the Visnupurana and the Bhagavatapurana. Curzon Studies in Asian Religion. Richmond: Curzon. Regards, Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann From cbpicron at GMX.DE Sun Mar 1 09:35:40 2009 From: cbpicron at GMX.DE (Claudine Bautze-Picron) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 09 10:35:40 +0100 Subject: Krishna as Vishnu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085147.23782.15207629822217055575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not to forget, on the early period: Herbert H?rtel, ? Archaeological Evidence on the Early V?sudeva Worship ?, Orientalia Iosephi Tucci Memoriae Dicata, ?d. G. Gnoli et L. Lanciotti, Rome : Istituto Italiano per il Medio ed Estremo Oriente, 1987, pp. 573-87. CBP. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Harsha Dehejia Sent: Samstag, 28. Februar 2009 14:04 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Krishna as Vishnu Friends: I am researching multi-arm images of Krishna. It seems to be that at some point Krishna ceases to be an avatara and becomes Vishnu himself. A case in point is Jagganath Puri where Krishna is Jagganath, an appellation reserved for Vishnu. A Nepali stone image (?12 th century) that I recently saw shows Krishna with 8 arms holding even a Sudarshan chakra. Am I on the right track? Any help would be appreciated. Regards. Harsha V. Dehejia Ottawa, ON., Canada. From pkoskikallio at GMAIL.COM Sun Mar 1 09:16:49 2009 From: pkoskikallio at GMAIL.COM (Petteri Koskikallio) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 09 11:16:49 +0200 Subject: The 2nd Prakrit Summer School Message-ID: <161227085143.23782.11982072819662163450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends, We are pleased to announce the 2nd Prakrit Summer School (Aug 17-28, 2009). The two-week introductory course in Jaina-Maharastri, held in Finland in 2007, will make a reappearance, this time in the city of W?rzburg, Germany. The Summer School is again going to focus on the Jain epic and narrative material. Further details as well as memories from the first meeting are available on the website: http://www.indologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/prakrit_summer_school/ Please inform any students who may be interested in participating. With best wishes, Eva De Clercq (evadeclercq at gmail.com) Anna Aurelia Esposito (anna.esposito at mail.uni-wuerzburg.de) Petteri Koskikallio (pkoskikallio at gmail.com) From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Sun Mar 1 16:47:56 2009 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 09 16:47:56 +0000 Subject: Professur in Buddhist Studies Message-ID: <161227085150.23782.15801164370071007481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> k?nnten Sie sich vorstellen f?r unsere Profess Liebe Frau Kellner, k?nnten Sie sich vorstellen f?r unsere Professur in Buddhist Studies im Rahmen des Exzellenzclusters "Asia and Europe in a Global Context" zu erw?rmen? Vielleicht haben Sie davon geh?rt. Urspr?nglich war sie ausgeschrieben mit einem Fokus auf Ostasien, doch hat sich dies jetzt ge?ndert, denn wir suchen nun auch nach KandidatInnen, die vom Indischen Buddhismus (Sanskrit, Pali) kommen. Es versteht sich, da? wir wir dabei auch an Sie denken. Hier die urspr?ngliche Ausschreibung: Professorship in Buddhist Studies The dispersion of Buddhism offers one of the richest historical archives of a transcultural flow in human history and can serve as an important testing ground for theories about the relationship between power projection and cultural flows. A Professorship in Buddhist Studies will be established. It will deal with the different aspects of the transcultural flow of Buddhism in history and modern times; will bring together scholars with a South Asian, an East Asian and a Western focus in this common endeavor; will cooperate in the development of the databases on translingual concepts and transcultural images; and will contribute to the development of teaching programs with a transcultural focus. Qualifications include a strong record of scholarly publications in Buddhist Studies; the proven capacity to handle original sources in at least two of the major Buddhist languages including Classical Chinese; a strong record in Chinese intellectual history; and a visible commitment to cross-disciplinary and transcultural studies. The position will come with a joint appointment at the Centre for East Asian Studies with institutional links to the South Asia Institute, Religious Studies, and Philosophy. Weitere Informationen zum Cluster finden Sie auf unserer Homepage: http://www.vjc.uni-hd.de/ Die Professur ist eine volle (W3-)Professur auf Lebenszeit. Sie w?re w?hrend der Laufzeit des Clusters dort angesiedelt, danach in Ihrem Fall vermutlich am S?dasien-Institut oder dem Zentrum f?r Ostasienwissenschaften. Falls Sie Interesse haben, w?rden wir Sie gerne zu einem Vortrag im April/Mai einladen. Wir k?nnen aber gerne vorher auch noch einmal telefonieren. Ich bin jederzeit bereit, Ihnen bei eventuellen Fragen zu helfen. Bitte z?gern Sie nicht, mich zu kontaktieren. Mit besten Gr??en und W?nschen Ihr Axel Michaels Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels (Speaker of the Collaborative Research Center (SFB) 619 "Dynamics of Ritual"; Co-Director of the Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe"), University of Heidelberg, South Asia Institute, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, D-69120 Heidelberg, Tel. +49-6221-548917 / Fax +49-6221-546338, http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/index.html, http://www.ritualdynamik.uni-hd.de, http://vjc.uni-hd.de, Axel.Michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Sun Mar 1 16:50:36 2009 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 09 16:50:36 +0000 Subject: AW: Professur in Buddhist Studies Message-ID: <161227085152.23782.16830071075563593803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am deeply sorry to have sent a private mail to the Dear colleagues, I am deeply sorry to have sent a private mail to the list. Please ignore it. Axel Michaels From pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM Tue Mar 3 12:40:34 2009 From: pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM (Pankaj Jain) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 09 12:40:34 +0000 Subject: Jainism courses in North America and Europe Message-ID: <161227085155.23782.15607681979462467227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is the list of professors who responded to my Jainism query (in alphabetical order of their last names). All of them have offered or plan to offer Jainism as a major part of one or several of their courses. This list will also be added to http://www.JainStudies.org soon. 1. Dr. Christopher Key Chapple Doshi Professor of Indic and Comparative Theology University Hall, Room 3763 Loyola Marymount University Los Angeles, CA 90045. USA 310-338-2846; fax: 310-338-1947 http://myweb.lmu.edu/cchapple/ 2. Dr. Donald Davis Dept of Languages and Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison, WI. USA http://lca.wisc.edu/facstaff/faculty/davis.htm 3. Dr. Hope K. Fitz Professor of Philosophy Eastern Connecticut State University Webb Hall # 356 Willimantic, CT 06226. USA fitzh at easternct.edu 4. Dr. Peter Fl?gel, Department of the Study of Religions, Faculty of Arts and Humanities, School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square, London WC1H OXG, England. E- mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies/ 5. Sarah Hadmack Windward Community College University of Hawaii minnis at hawaii.edu 6. Andrea Jain, Doctoral Candidate, Dept. of Religious Studies, Rice University Houston, TX 77005-1892, arjain at rice.edu 7. Dr. Pankaj Jain Department of Religious Studies North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC. USA pankajaindia at gmail.com http://www.IndicUniversity.org 8. Dr. Karen Lang Professor Department of Religious Studies and Director Center for South Asian Studies, Halsey Hall University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA. USA http://www.virginia.edu/facultyexperts/expert.php?id=326 9. Dr. Jeffery D. Long Chair, Steering Committee, Dharma Association of North America Associate Professor and Chair, Religious Studies, Elizabethtown College Co-Director, Asian Studies Minor, Elizabethtown College Elizabethtown, PA 17022, USA 10. Samani Charitra Prajna and Samani Unnata Pragya, Florida International University, Miami, USA http://religion.fiu.edu/People/Adjuncts.TAs/Samani%20Charitra%20Prajna.htm 11. Dr. Natubhai Shah, University of Antwerp, Netherlands 12. Dr. Anne Vallely Assistant Professor Department of Classics and Religious Studies University of Ottawa 70 Laurier, Ottawa K1B 6N5, Canada avallely at uottawa.ca annevallely at gmail.com 13. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos The Institute of Indology University of Munich, Germany http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos/index-eng.html From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Tue Mar 3 18:29:44 2009 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 09 19:29:44 +0100 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt Message-ID: <161227085158.23782.6279505595185458022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The refereed proceedings of the Third International Symposium on Sanskrit Computational Linguistics (Hyderabad, 15-17 January 2009) are available (in fact they have been available from the first day of the symposium onwards): http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~ley/db/journals/lncs5400-5499.html The organisers of this symposium have set a new standard for international sanskrit conferences and for intercultural linguistics by providing, in addition, in a separate publication (41 pages) entitled Ga.nakapaa.niniiyam, the sanskrit abstracts of the papers in these proceedings [plus an extra brief paper (in English) on the Sanskrit Grammar Machine by Gunderao Harakare (1887-1979)], which is published by the Sanskrit Academy, Osmania, 2009 (http://www.osmania.ac.in/sanskritacademy/Research/Publication.html; I did not see publications after 2004 in the list). The sanskrit translation of abstracts, by Dr. Srinivas Varakhedi and his team, is an achievement in itself as it is one of very few attempts to deal IN SANSKRIT with modern linguistic concepts (another more elaborate attempt I am aware of is G.B. Palsule's work on Indo-European linguistics written in Sanskrit, entitled Yubhaata.h sa.msk.rtam prati). A few examples from Ga.nakapaa.niniiyam (2009): morphology (in one sense) becomes: prak.rti-pratyaya-vivecanam; (n.b. "morphology" is neither in MW's English Skt nor in Apte's English Skt) word formation: pada-ni.spatti.h; syntax: vaakya-sa.mracanaa, with explanation (needed because of modern syntacticians' work is often mainly based on languages with largely fixed word order:) vaakye pada-krama-niyama.h; derivational word-generating device (as characterisation of A.s.taadhyaayii): dhaatu-praatipadika-pratyaya-yojanena pada-ni.spaadaka.m yantram; "Questions of linguistic development, of historic sound change ... lie outside Paa.nini's interest" (from S.D. Joshi's contribution): bhaa.sotpatti-vi.sayinii jij?aasaa, bhaa.saayaa.m var.na-parivartana-krama-vi.sayako vicaara.h ... paa.nine.h vicaara-paridhau naantarbhavanti S.D. Joshi, in his Keynote Address "Background of the A.s.taadhyaayii", writes: "Is the A.s.taadhyaayii rightly called a grammar?" The spirit of this question will obviously be missed if 'grammar' would be translated as vyaakara.na. Varakhedi et al.'s solution: kim a.s.taadhyaayyaa.h 'graamar' (bhaa.saa-niyama-sa:ngraha.h) iti naama samucitam? S.D. Joshi: "grammar developed in Greece and Rome is paradigmatic, "rom-grii;s (sic) de;sayo.h vyaakara.na.m aadar;sa-ruupaadhaarita.m dariid.r;syate": Jan Houben From geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR Wed Mar 4 07:31:51 2009 From: geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR (Alexandra Vandergeer) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 09 09:31:51 +0200 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085161.23782.18164602557549957354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wonder, does Dr. Srinivas Varakhedi and his team also have words for coputer, computational, unicode fonts, printer, word strings, parser, recursive, and regular expressions? Personally, if I would have to do the job, I would have considered these terms loan-words, as most living languages do today. Same with submodern items like coffee and train. Alexandra van der Geer Athens > The refereed proceedings of the Third International Symposium on Sanskrit > Computational Linguistics (Hyderabad, 15-17 January 2009) are available > (in > fact they have been available from the first day of the symposium > onwards): > http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~ley/db/journals/lncs5400-5499.html > The organisers of this symposium have set a new standard for international > sanskrit conferences and for intercultural linguistics by providing, in > addition, in a separate publication (41 pages) entitled > Ga.nakapaa.niniiyam, > the sanskrit abstracts of the papers in these proceedings [plus an extra > brief paper (in English) on the Sanskrit Grammar Machine by Gunderao > Harakare (1887-1979)], which is published by the Sanskrit Academy, > Osmania, > 2009 (http://www.osmania.ac.in/sanskritacademy/Research/Publication.html; > I > did not see publications after 2004 in the list). > The sanskrit translation of abstracts, by Dr. Srinivas Varakhedi and his > team, is an achievement in itself as it is one of very few attempts to > deal > IN SANSKRIT with modern linguistic concepts (another more > elaborate attempt I am aware of is G.B. Palsule's work on Indo-European > linguistics written in Sanskrit, entitled Yubhaata.h sa.msk.rtam prati). > > A few examples from Ga.nakapaa.niniiyam (2009): > morphology (in one sense) becomes: prak.rti-pratyaya-vivecanam; > (n.b. "morphology" is neither in MW's English Skt nor in Apte's English > Skt) > word formation: pada-ni.spatti.h; > syntax: vaakya-sa.mracanaa, with explanation (needed because of modern > syntacticians' work is often mainly based on languages with largely fixed > word order:) vaakye pada-krama-niyama.h; > derivational word-generating device (as characterisation of > A.s.taadhyaayii): > dhaatu-praatipadika-pratyaya-yojanena pada-ni.spaadaka.m yantram; > "Questions of linguistic development, of historic sound change ... lie > outside Paa.nini's interest" (from S.D. Joshi's contribution): > bhaa.sotpatti-vi.sayinii jij??aasaa, bhaa.saayaa.m > var.na-parivartana-krama-vi.sayako vicaara.h ... paa.nine.h > vicaara-paridhau > naantarbhavanti > S.D. Joshi, in his Keynote Address "Background of the A.s.taadhyaayii", > writes: > "Is the A.s.taadhyaayii rightly called a grammar?" > The spirit of this question will obviously be missed if 'grammar' would be > translated as vyaakara.na. > Varakhedi et al.'s solution: > kim a.s.taadhyaayyaa.h 'graamar' (bhaa.saa-niyama-sa:ngraha.h) iti naama > samucitam? > S.D. Joshi: "grammar developed in Greece and Rome is paradigmatic, > "rom-grii;s (sic) de;sayo.h vyaakara.na.m aadar;sa-ruupaadhaarita.m > dariid.r;syate": > > Jan Houben > From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Wed Mar 4 10:17:48 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 09 11:17:48 +0100 Subject: Publication announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085164.23782.7028647760580028949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just published: Thomas K. Gugler, Ozeanisches Gef?hl der Unsterblichkeit. Der Krishnamritarnava des Madhva Sanskrittext mit annotierter ?bersetzung nebst Einf?hrung in Madhvas Leben, Lehre, Werke und Wirken. Leipziger Studien zu Kultur und Geschichte S?d- und Zentralasins 3 LIT Verlag 2009 ISBN 978-3-8258-1140-2 Best wishes, Eli Franco ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Mar 4 23:36:13 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 09 18:36:13 -0500 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt Message-ID: <161227085167.23782.1378125712284053850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would think that since Sanskrit creates abstractions with great ease, it would be more reasonable to invent words for these (at least arguably) abstract entities from Sanskrit roots and vocabulary rather than to borrow the English. They aren't like Realien like "coffee." Anyway, modern languages differ radically in the extent to which they expand vocabulary by borrowing rather than by translation, invention from native vocabulary, calqueing, or the like, don't they? Allen Thrasher "I wonder, does Dr. Srinivas Varakhedi and his team also have words for computer, computational, unicode fonts, printer, word strings, parser, recursive, and regular expressions? Personally, if I would have to do the job, I would have considered these terms loan-words, as most living languages do today. Same with submodern items like coffee and train. Alexandra van der Geer Athens" From acollins at GCI.NET Thu Mar 5 19:19:52 2009 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 10:19:52 -0900 Subject: Seeking paper proposals on culture theory and contemporary culture In-Reply-To: <20090305T135819Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085181.23782.13554015281766526290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am organizing a panel for the Dharma Association of North America meeting in Montreal next Thanksgiving week, conjoint with the American Academy of Religion. I invite anyone interested in presenting a a paper to get in touch with me. The topic is: "Traditional Indian culture theory views contemporary media cultures" The panel will engage classical Indian thinking about culture with examples of contemporary culture in India and elsewhere. Indian reflection on culture may be found in many places, although the specific category of "culture" may not be identified as such. Refining oneself or one's practices (samskrti, samskara) and attaining a higher or better state (sadhana) might, however, be thought of as kinds of culture. Can yoga, tantra, nyaya, dharma literature, rasa esthetics, etc., shed light on what is happening in the contemporary media cultures of India, Europe, the US, etc., and point the way toward what could and should be happening there? If culture is a force within social life that can move persons toward more authentic, truer selfhood, how are we to understand secular media culture, which seems opposed to what we might call the sadhana function of classical cultures? How can culture do its job in the contemporary world? From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu Mar 5 09:44:43 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 10:44:43 +0100 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt In-Reply-To: <20090304T183613Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085170.23782.3401100742619757088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to draw your attention to the Sanskrit dictionary in http://spokensanskrit.de/ It has entries such as computer, computer mouse, log in/out, coffee, chocolade, etc. Best wishs Eli Franco > I would think that since Sanskrit creates abstractions with great > ease, it would be more reasonable to invent words for these (at > least arguably) abstract entities from Sanskrit roots and vocabulary > rather than to borrow the English. They aren't like Realien like > "coffee." Anyway, modern languages differ radically in the extent > to which they expand vocabulary by borrowing rather than by > translation, invention from native vocabulary, calqueing, or the > like, don't they? > > Allen Thrasher > > > "I wonder, does Dr. Srinivas Varakhedi and his team also have words for > computer, computational, unicode fonts, printer, word strings, parser, > recursive, and regular expressions? Personally, if I would have to do the > job, I would have considered these terms loan-words, as most living > languages do today. Same with submodern items like coffee and train. > > Alexandra van der Geer > Athens" ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Thu Mar 5 21:19:30 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 13:19:30 -0800 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <5065_1236282968_1236282968_20090305T145508Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085186.23782.10120385165013617796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Prof. Tokunaga's Mahaabhaarata e-text: 0120170181/.anantam.bata.me.vittam.yasya.me.na.asti.kimcana./ 0120170183/.mithilaayaam.pradiiptaayaam.na.me.dahyati.kimcana.// Also, 0121710561/ 0121710563/ with no difference of reading. The metre would not allow you to read dahyate with a heavy syllable at the end of the word. On 09/05/24 11:55 AM, "Allen W Thrasher" wrote: > What is the source and context of the saying, MithilAyAM tu daghdAyAm / na me > dahyate kimcana? > > Allen From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Mar 5 21:44:54 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 13:44:54 -0800 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <20090305T145508Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085190.23782.10802145540188571289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition to the MBh and Uttarajjh?y? references provided by Professors Aklujkar and Tieken, the half?verse in question occurs in Ud?navarga 30.44: susukham bata j?v?mo ye??? no n?sti ki?cana? mithil?y?? dahyam?n?y?? na no dahyati ki?cana? and in Mah?vastu III 453.1?2: mithil?y?? dahyam?n?y?? n?sya dahyati ki?cana caturtha? khu bhadram adhanasya an?g?rasya bhik?u?o I happen to have a scan of the Roth article which I will send to Allen in separate email. I wonder why Mithil? figures in this proverbial expression. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 5 18:58:19 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 13:58:19 -0500 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt Message-ID: <161227085178.23782.9254130224667761883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It's probably not important, but I want to clarify that when I said, "Anyway, modern languages differ radically in the extent to which they expand vocabulary by borrowing rather than by translation, invention from native vocabulary, calqueing, or the like, don't they?," I was referring to modern languages throughout the world, not specifically modern South Asian languages. Allen From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 5 19:55:08 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 14:55:08 -0500 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm Message-ID: <161227085184.23782.4113921747803988540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the source and context of the saying, MithilAyAM tu daghdAyAm / na me dahyate kimcana? Allen From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 5 23:35:47 2009 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 15:35:47 -0800 Subject: A pedantic correction (but it's still a good story) In-Reply-To: <20090305T172003Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085207.23782.10250333181938113141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > There was another one I heard about Roman Jacobson. When he first > came to the U.S., his English was insufficient for lecturing, so in > his first class he said, "Does everyone here know Polish?" One shy > student at the back timidly raised her hand saying she didn't. He > leaned over the podium, spread out his hands, and said, "Vell, TRY." > > Si non e vero, e bien trovato. > It was my father, Valentin Kiparsky, not Roman Jakobson. The occasion was the 1952 Linguistic Institute at Bloomington, Indiana. The language was Russian, not Polish. And the student was male. ...ben cambiato, anyway. Paul From d.plukker at INTER.NL.NET Thu Mar 5 15:42:56 2009 From: d.plukker at INTER.NL.NET (Dick Plukker) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 16:42:56 +0100 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt In-Reply-To: <20090305104443.20382ikt1re6bi8b@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085173.23782.16326329512841300200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See also /A Comprehensive English-Hindi Dictionary of Governmental & Educational Words & Phrases/, by Prof. Dr. Raghu Vira and Dr. Lokesh Chandra, New Delhi 1976. Its enormous (1572 pages, three columns to a page), heavingly Sanskritized, vocabulary is mostly formed, just as described by Allen Thrasher, on the basis of Sanskrit roots, pre- and suffixes. Dick Plukker Amsterdam franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE schreef: > I would like to draw your attention to the Sanskrit dictionary in > http://spokensanskrit.de/ > It has entries such as computer, computer mouse, log in/out, coffee, > chocolade, etc. > Best wishs > Eli Franco > > >> I would think that since Sanskrit creates abstractions with great >> ease, it would be more reasonable to invent words for these (at least >> arguably) abstract entities from Sanskrit roots and vocabulary rather >> than to borrow the English. They aren't like Realien like >> "coffee." Anyway, modern languages differ radically in the extent to >> which they expand vocabulary by borrowing rather than by translation, >> invention from native vocabulary, calqueing, or the like, don't they? >> >> Allen Thrasher >> >> >> "I wonder, does Dr. Srinivas Varakhedi and his team also have words for >> computer, computational, unicode fonts, printer, word strings, parser, >> recursive, and regular expressions? Personally, if I would have to do >> the >> job, I would have considered these terms loan-words, as most living >> languages do today. Same with submodern items like coffee and train. >> >> Alexandra van der Geer >> Athens" From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 5 22:20:03 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 17:20:03 -0500 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085199.23782.14762119199659169495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the hope of slightly relieving the depression that Michael Hahn's points may have engendered, I'll recount an anecdote someone or other told me about Harry Wolfson, the great scholar of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim theology and philosophy. A grad student had a difficult question and was advised to consult Prof. Wolfson. He went to his office in the top of Widener Library, and explained his problem. Wolfson said, "I have just the thing you need." He climbed a ladder to the highest shelf, reached to the back, drew out a pamphlet, and came back down blowing away the dust. He handed it to the student saying, "You do read Lithuanian, don't you?" There was another one I heard about Roman Jacobson. When he first came to the U.S., his English was insufficient for lecturing, so in his first class he said, "Does everyone here know Polish?" One shy student at the back timidly raised her hand saying she didn't. He leaned over the podium, spread out his hands, and said, "Vell, TRY." Si non e vero, e bien trovato. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Mar 6 01:35:52 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 17:35:52 -0800 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <20090305T180306Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085213.23782.6090656882743681662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Allen, > Mithila was just taken as the greatest and richest city that may well be the case. There is also a J?taka version of the Mah?vastu verse (Ja V 252.28?29) which just uses ?city? without giving it a name: pa?cama? bhadram adhanassa an?g?rassa bhikkhuno nagaramhi ?ayham?namhi n?ssa ki? ci a?ayhatha Best regards, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 5 23:03:06 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 18:03:06 -0500 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm Message-ID: <161227085201.23782.13775497162361105266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Ashok, Herman, and Stefan for their illuminating responses. I had always thought that there was an ancient story of some specific king of Mithila walking away from his burning city, but apparently not, Mithila was just taken as the greatest and richest city. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Fri Mar 6 02:15:09 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 18:15:09 -0800 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <20090305225618.E241.HAHN.M@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085218.23782.4067641261706122966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to suggest, as gently as possible, that it is not a good idea to speak of an "indisputable hierarchy of languages" for Indologists, all of which happen to be Western. I can testify that there is an enormous scholarly literature in Tamil that is important for Indological studies -- and that it is in no way inferior in quality or learning to what is in German or English. The same is true of Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu -- and I suspect of the major North Indian languages. If a student came to me and asked whether she should learn French, German, Tamil or Telugu, I would answer Tamil or Telugu without a second thought. The fact that western scholars are ignorant of what is written in these languages does not mean they are less important or illuminating than what we write. George Hart From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Fri Mar 6 02:25:54 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 18:25:54 -0800 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <334_1236294249_1236294249_20090305T180306Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085220.23782.14390867391323265753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The association of the remark with Janaka and Mithilaa is rather widespread. Mithilaa is known primarily as an ideal city, not as the richest city (and Janaka as a philosopher king). The reference to burning is hypothetical ('even if Mithilaa is ablaze, even if Mithilaa were to burn ...'). Note the present tense in the reading dahyati. On 09/05/24 3:03 PM, "Allen W Thrasher" wrote: > I had always thought that there was an ancient story of some specific king of > Mithila walking away from his burning city, but apparently not, Mithila was > just taken as the greatest and richest city. From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 5 23:42:46 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 18:42:46 -0500 Subject: A pedantic correction (but it's still a good story) Message-ID: <161227085210.23782.15703694614038373940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Paul. I'm virtually certain I heard it as Polish, which as I was explaining to Bob Goldman, made the story even better. Maybe it got transformed before it got to me, rather than by me. Allen >>> Paul Kiparsky 3/5/2009 6:35 PM >>> > > There was another one I heard about Roman Jacobson. When he first > came to the U.S., his English was insufficient for lecturing, so in > his first class he said, "Does everyone here know Polish?" One shy > student at the back timidly raised her hand saying she didn't. He > leaned over the podium, spread out his hands, and said, "Vell, TRY." > > Si non e vero, e bien trovato. > It was my father, Valentin Kiparsky, not Roman Jakobson. The occasion was the 1952 Linguistic Institute at Bloomington, Indiana. The language was Russian, not Polish. And the student was male. ...ben cambiato, anyway. Paul From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Fri Mar 6 03:03:02 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 19:03:02 -0800 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <334_1236294249_1236294249_20090305T180306Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085224.23782.6104884107779385681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The last sentence should read "Note the present tense in the first half of the verse and in the reading dahyati." a.a. The association of the remark with Janaka and Mithilaa is rather widespread. Mithilaa is known primarily as an ideal city, not as the richest city (and Janaka as a philosopher king). The reference to burning is hypothetical ('even if Mithilaa is ablaze, even if Mithilaa were to burn ...'). Note the present tense in the reading dahyati. On 09/05/24 3:03 PM, "Allen W Thrasher" wrote: > I had always thought that there was an ancient story of some specific king of > Mithila walking away from his burning city, but apparently not, Mithila was > just taken as the greatest and richest city. From rajam at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 6 05:00:33 2009 From: rajam at EARTHLINK.NET (rajam) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 21:00:33 -0800 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085227.23782.7882516365977255124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I absolutely agree with what George H. has stated here about the importance of the study of Indian languages, especially for obtaining a reasonable understanding of the complex Indian culture. Regards, V.S. Rajam On Mar 5, 2009, at 6:15 PM, George Hart wrote: > I would like to suggest, as gently as possible, that it is not a > good idea to speak of an "indisputable hierarchy of languages" for > Indologists, all of which happen to be Western. I can testify that > there is an enormous scholarly literature in Tamil that is > important for Indological studies -- and that it is in no way > inferior in quality or learning to what is in German or English. > The same is true of Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu -- and I suspect > of the major North Indian languages. If a student came to me and > asked whether she should learn French, German, Tamil or Telugu, I > would answer Tamil or Telugu without a second thought. The fact > that western scholars are ignorant of what is written in these > languages does not mean they are less important or illuminating > than what we write. George Hart From H.J.H.Tieken at HUM.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Mar 5 21:28:28 2009 From: H.J.H.Tieken at HUM.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 22:28:28 +0100 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm Message-ID: <161227085188.23782.642500810219732297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The line is found in Uttarajjhaya 9.14/242, in Prakrit (but withour diacritics): mihilae dajjhamanie na me dajjhai kimcana. Here (at home) I do not have access to Gustav Roth's "Dhammapada verses in Uttarajjhaya". Sambodhi 5, 2-3 (1976), pp. 166-9, who refers to the Mahabharata and Dhammapada parallels. If you wish I can mail you the references tomorrow Kind regards Herman Tieken ________________________________ From: Indology on behalf of Allen W Thrasher Sent: Thu 3/5/2009 8:55 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm What is the source and context of the saying, MithilAyAM tu daghdAyAm / na me dahyate kimcana? Allen From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Fri Mar 6 06:45:08 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 22:45:08 -0800 Subject: A pedantic correction (but it's still a good story) In-Reply-To: <10347_1236317799_1236317799_c4c5a5430903052136h37605106h57d990728732e9c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227085234.23782.18298579094065020017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I took two courses with Roman Jacobson. The remark I heard about him in both the classes was: "He speaks English in eighteen different languages." The range of knowledge behind the thick Russian accent and the French culture of speaking ("Permit me to say/add/mention that ..."), however, was amazing. He would easily move from linguistics to poetics and would mention even Ananda-vardhana with a good grasp of the dhvani theory. Ashok Aklujkar From hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Mar 5 21:59:46 2009 From: hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE (Michael Hahn) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 22:59:46 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085193.23782.6026941037528153791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The recent contributions of Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi and Walter Slaje to the list touch a fundamental problem that affects the work of many scholars working in various of Indian Studies ("South Asian Studies", to be politically correct) and which should be mentioned here, if only brief: The factual existence of a two class system that is caused by two barriers which are indeed hard to overcome --- the financial barrier and the language barrier. The financial barrier is mainly caused by the enormous cost of publishing books on all types of "oriental" topics in the so-called developed countries. The result are prohibitive prices that put these publications out of the reach of most scholars. There are only a few places in the world --- in the North America, some European countries and Japan --- where researchers enjoy practically unimpeded access to the fruits of their colleagues' works, also thanks to a functioning interlibrary loan system. The second factor, the cost of an adequate technical equipment, is fortunately becoming less decisive because of the rapidly decreasing prices for computer hard and software and internet charges. The problem of the high prices of books and journals is at least partially overcome by the laudable enterprises of Indian and other Asian publishers who are on a large scale reprinting older important works and in an increasing number also recent publications, with the permission of the original publishers. And the costs of exchange of texts, documents and papers via the internet (occasionally in a legally grey or even dark zone) have also drastically dropped I have experienced both situations: to work in institutes with fairly well (or even excellently) equipped libraries during two of my assignments at German universities, as visiting scholar in the USA, England, or Japan, and to have to work with a small library and an entirely inadequate budget during my assignment at small university in Germany where I felt to be not much better of than my colleagues in India. The situation was partly made up through the exchange of publications with and the possibility of buying privately at least some of the books that the institute could not afford. The second barrier is the language barrier that was alluded to or mentioned by my colleagues Pandurangi and Slaje. I understand what Prof. Pandurangi has written, however, I would like to add something to his statements. It is true that indological publications are written in an ever increasing number of languages all of which cannot be mastered by a single individual. Scholars like the late Prof. J. W. de Jong who read almost all the relevant languages are a rare exception. And I do not believe that I (or even my younger colleagues) will live long enough to see reliable translations of scholarly papers done by computers. Nevertheless, there is an indisputable hierarchy of languages that are essential for indological studies as they were conceived and developed in the Western countries during the last two centuries. Whether one likes it or not: There are three European languages in which so many valuable and fundamental works for various fields of Indian studies were written (and are being written) that he or she who wishes to participate in this kind of research cannot afford not to acquire at least a certain reading knowledge of them: English, German and French. I readily admit that this means an additional burden for everyone who does not have one of these languages as his or her mother tongue. Nevertheless until recently it was recommended to students of indology at the University of Kyoto to acquire a basic command of these three languages. Sometimes it might suffice to have a colleague who can assist one in consulting a publication in one of these languages. One has also to bear in mind that these three languages were used by a many students from abroad who wrote their theses in an English, French, or German speaking country. Quite often they later kept these languages as their medium of publication. I would like to illustrate the reason why "code switching" is not so easy a task in many fields of humanities by the case of a Japanese student who came to me for one year with the sole aim of discussing with me a limited portion of his Ph. D. thesis, the edition and translation of a rather difficult Tibetan philosophical commentary. After we had translated a major portion of the work into German, after long discussions about the proper German equivalents of difficult terms, he desperately said: "I will never be able to translate this again into Japanese [without spending too much time and energy --- this is to be understood]." And he decided to complete his thesis in German and in Germany. It goes without saying that for specific fields of research publications in languages like Italian, Russian, Japanese --- more recently also Hindi and Chinese --- can also be absolutely indispensable and that one has to find a way how to consult them. One can certainly not assume the attitude: "I don't read Italian/Russian/Chinese etc., therefore I don't care whether the problem I am studying now has already been dealt with satisfactorily by an Italian/Russian/Chinese etc. colleague." Deplorably, sometimes it does not help much even if foreign scholars take the trouble of writing in English, because of the financial barrier. A great portion of Prof. von Hinueber's publications --- which were the starting point of the whole discussion --- is already available in English (cf., e.g., his Selected Papers, London 1994). Nevertheless many colleagues in India don't even know his name. That is what he himself apprehended when he once told me that it doesn't seem to matter whether he writes in German or English because he will not find many more readers for his English publications. Even if it might be difficult for many colleagues in India and elsewhere to get hold of many important books and papers, it has, thanks to the internet, nowadays become a very easy task to inform oneself about a particular scholar, his (or her) fields of research and his (or her) publications. Usually one can find these data on the scholar's home page. And for a very rough translation of titles of books and papers even the internet tools might prove sufficient. I suspect the reasons outlined above might have been responsible --- at least partly --- for the somewhat satiric tone of Prof. Slaje's response, nothing else. --- Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn Ritterstr. 14 D-35287 Amoeneburg Tel. +49-6422-938963 Fax: +49-6422-938967 E-mail: hahn.m at t-online.de URL: staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~hahnm From hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Mar 5 22:05:13 2009 From: hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE (Michael Hahn) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 23:05:13 +0100 Subject: Publication announcement In-Reply-To: <20090304111748.15302kjconnylt8s@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085196.23782.8773249436870864344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bauddhasahityastabakavali: Essays and Studies on Buddhist Sanskrit Literature Dedicated to Claus Vogel by Colleagues, Students, and Friends. Edited by Dragomir Dimitrov, Michael Hahn, and Roland Steiner. Marburg 2008, xxvi, 351 pp., hardcover (Indica et Tibetica, Band 36), ISBN: 978-3-923776-36-8, Price: EUR 48,00 This volume contains a bibliography of Professor Claus Vogel?s publications and 15 papers (10 in German, 5 in English), all but one dealing with Buddhist topics (critical editions, translations, text- critical, historical, and literary studies). Table of Contents: Preface ix Peter WYZLIC Publications of Claus Vogel xi Heinz BECHERT Kavya-Literatur in der fr?hen und mittelalterlichen Tradition der Singhalesen in Sri Lanka 1 Siglinde DIETZ Mat?ce?as *Caturviparyasajihasakatha 17 Dragomir DIMITROV Some Remarks on the Rupyavatyavadana of the Divyavadana(mala) 45 Helmut EIMER ?berlegungen zur ?berlieferungsgeschichte des tibetischen Buddhacarita 65 Karl-Heinz GOLZIO Zur Datierung des Ku?a?a-K?nigs Kani?ka I. 79 Michael HAHN The Sanskrit Text of J?anasrimitra?s V?ttamalastuti 93 J?rgen HANNEDER Candradasa?s Tarastuti 171 Jens-Uwe HARTMANN Vasumitras Darsanapa?casatstava: Ein Buddha-Hymnus aus Ostturkistan 187 Konrad KLAUS Metrische und textkritische Untersuchungen zur Ra??rapalaparip?ccha: Die alten Arya-Strophen 199 Philipp A. MAAS: A Phylogenetic Approach to the Transmission of the Tibetan Kanjur ?the Ak?ayamatinirdesa Revisited 229 Klaus-Dieter MATHES: The Sri Sabarapadastotraratna of Vanaratna 245 Mamiko und Yukihiro OKADA: Zum Verh?ltnis des Lalitavistara zur Ratnaku?a-Sammlung: Die Sage von Syama und Ruci (Lalitavistara XIII.[32]) 269 Wilhelm RAU: Der Magnet im Alten Indien: Sanskrit Parallelen zu Plinius: Naturalis Historia 34.42 285 Roland STEINER: Glossar (Sanskrit-Deutsch-Tibetisch) zum ersten Gesang von Asvagho?as Buddhacarita 291 Klaus WILLE: Neue Fragmente des Candrasutra 339 www.iet-verlag.de --- Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn Ritterstr. 14 D-35287 Amoeneburg Tel. +49-6422-938963 Fax: +49-6422-938967 E-mail: hahn.m at t-online.de URL: staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~hahnm From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu Mar 5 18:05:20 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 23:35:20 +0530 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt Message-ID: <161227085176.23782.9155733803061153101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 06 02 09 The accusation that an NIA language?depended heavily on Sanskrit perhaps first came from Grierson who noted that?in Bengali and called that 'slavish'. The idea caught up with some non-Bengali linguists like Taraporewala but none among Bengali authors or scholars of any consequence including Tagore and so many writers in Bangladesh cared for the accusation. Most of them do not know anything of that 'slavish' dependence. Bengali has moved way from the nineteenth century stiffness. But Grierson or Taraporewala had nothing to do with that. Development in the districts and improved communication have allowed the influence of the dialects to be felt with native words replacing Sanskrit words imperceptibly. But quite a few post-Tagore poets (eg.Sudhindranath Datta, Bishnu De in calcutta and a number of them in Bangladesh) have been in search of proper words much more from Sanskrit than from any other language for expressing various ideas and ideologies .? Hindi caught up with Bengali a bit late in the day. So the attention on its dependence on Sanskrit is younger than that on Bengali. As to why the concern for over-dependence on Sanskrit is of no concern to the creative writers in these languages and is of non-native origin will not be far to seek. It is because the critics do not speak or write the languages concerned. I request for the indulgence of my colleagues in giving here a gist of my conversation with late Professor F.B.J. Kuiper. That may clarify my point. Everybody knows that Kuiper had a forceful personality and was liberal in his outlook. I had just complained against the way Grierson attacked the influence of Sanskrit on Bengali. Kuiper, who had at first thought that I had been speaking from the point of view of Grierson, asked me if the process had been still alive. I asked him with all humility -- what most of the European languages did for coining terms for zoological species and other new additions in physical and social sciences? I just averred that the dependence was not more than that of French or English on Greco-Roman at least till the fifties of the twentieth century. My words only evoked a heavenly smile from the savant. That was usual and typically Kuiperish. Why not even a word will ever be uttered anywhere in the world about that dependence? DB --- On Thu, 5/3/09, Dick Plukker wrote: From: Dick Plukker Subject: Re: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 5 March, 2009, 9:12 PM See also /A Comprehensive English-Hindi Dictionary of Governmental & Educational Words & Phrases/, by Prof. Dr. Raghu Vira and Dr. Lokesh Chandra, New Delhi 1976. Its enormous (1572 pages, three columns to a page), heavingly Sanskritized, vocabulary is mostly formed, just as described by Allen Thrasher, on the basis of Sanskrit roots, pre- and suffixes. Dick Plukker Amsterdam franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE schreef: > I would like to draw your attention to the Sanskrit dictionary in > http://spokensanskrit.de/ > It has entries such as computer, computer mouse, log in/out, coffee, chocolade, etc. > Best wishs > Eli Franco > > >> I would think that since Sanskrit creates abstractions with great ease, it would be more reasonable to invent words for these (at least arguably) abstract entities from Sanskrit roots and vocabulary rather than to borrow the English.???They aren't like Realien like "coffee."? Anyway, modern languages differ radically in the extent to which they expand vocabulary by borrowing rather than by translation, invention from native vocabulary, calqueing, or the like, don't they? >> >> Allen Thrasher >> >> >> "I wonder, does Dr. Srinivas Varakhedi and his team also have words for >> computer, computational, unicode fonts, printer, word strings, parser, >> recursive, and regular expressions? Personally, if I would have to do the >> job, I would have considered these terms loan-words, as most living >> languages do today. Same with submodern items like coffee and train. >> >> Alexandra van der Geer >> Athens" Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Mar 5 23:22:29 2009 From: hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE (Michael Hahn) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 00:22:29 +0100 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <20090305T180306Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085204.23782.699806090425090830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One would hope that Prajnavarman in his voluminous Udanavargavivarana (ed. M. Balk, Bonn 1984) would relate a somewhat interesting story but all he has to say is: "In order to illustrate that there is a special happiness after one has abandoned even the minutest [possession] without any remainder [the Buddha] spoke [the verse containing the name] Mithila. The ruler of Mithila, a royal seer, once dwelt in a state that was free from longing caused by desire. When he saw that Mithila was consumed by a big fire he spoke the stanza that had been uttered by the Buddha." --- Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn Ritterstr. 14 D-35287 Amoeneburg Tel. +49-6422-938963 Fax: +49-6422-938967 E-mail: hahn.m at t-online.de URL: staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~hahnm From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Fri Mar 6 05:36:26 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 06:36:26 +0100 Subject: A pedantic correction (but it's still a good story) In-Reply-To: <20090305T184246Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085229.23782.11861031039086521407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I heard the story years ago from Cal Watkins, Jacobson's student, as concerning him and Russian. So there seem to be various 'recensions' of the story circulating... On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 12:42 AM, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Thanks, Paul. I'm virtually certain I heard it as Polish, which as I was > explaining to Bob Goldman, made the story even better. Maybe it got > transformed before it got to me, rather than by me. > > Allen > > >>> Paul Kiparsky 3/5/2009 6:35 PM >>> > > > > > There was another one I heard about Roman Jacobson. When he first > > came to the U.S., his English was insufficient for lecturing, so in > > his first class he said, "Does everyone here know Polish?" One shy > > student at the back timidly raised her hand saying she didn't. He > > leaned over the podium, spread out his hands, and said, "Vell, TRY." > > > > Si non e vero, e bien trovato. > > > > It was my father, Valentin Kiparsky, not Roman Jakobson. The > occasion was the 1952 Linguistic Institute at Bloomington, Indiana. > The language was Russian, not Polish. And the student was male. > > ...ben cambiato, anyway. > > Paul > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From James_Fitzgerald at BROWN.EDU Fri Mar 6 11:42:06 2009 From: James_Fitzgerald at BROWN.EDU (Fitzgerald, James) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 06:42:06 -0500 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <20090305214454.GC6320@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227085253.23782.15559746021647736688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition to the two MBh references already noted, a variant with susukhaM bata jIvAmi (similar Stefan's UdAnavarga citation) for anantaM bata me vittam occurs at 12.268.4. I discuss the way the figure of Janaka is cast and used in a run of texts occurring at the end of the MokSadharmaparvan in the introduction to my translation of the SulabhAJanakasaMvAda in the Journal of Indian Philosophy 30.6 (December, 2002): 641-77. Janaka is frequently portrayed here as the paradigmatic karmayogin king, "in the world, but not of the world," and this extravagant verse is put in his mouth as an emblem of his detachment. Sulabha is depicted as giving the lie to his claims. James L. Fitzgerald Dept. of Classics Brown University James_Fitzgerald at Brown.edu (I posted the above message yesterday afternoon, but it did not go through for technical reasons. Since I don't believe anyone has yet pointed out the third MBh reference, I repost it now. Jim) -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Stefan Baums Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:45 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In addition to the MBh and Uttarajjh?y? references provided by Professors Aklujkar and Tieken, the half?verse in question occurs in Ud?navarga 30.44: susukham bata j?v?mo ye??? no n?sti ki?cana? mithil?y?? dahyam?n?y?? na no dahyati ki?cana? and in Mah?vastu III 453.1?2: mithil?y?? dahyam?n?y?? n?sya dahyati ki?cana caturtha? khu bhadram adhanasya an?g?rasya bhik?u?o I happen to have a scan of the Roth article which I will send to Allen in separate email. I wonder why Mithil? figures in this proverbial expression. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Fri Mar 6 06:36:29 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 07:36:29 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <20090305225618.E241.HAHN.M@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085232.23782.9922834558675920468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Concerning the financial barrier, it is perhaps worthwhile to take notice of a growing movement towards making access to scholarly publications open (hence: "open access"), rapidly spreading in the natural sciences and also developing into a strategy that many research funding bodies in the West (including Japan) adopt in general. This movement arose mainly in response to changes in the journal publication market: large commercial publishing houses charge growing subscription rates to libraries, which makes it increasingly difficult for researchers to access literature. Open access means ideally that scholarly publications are free of charge and available to everyone - usually in digital format, mostly in PDF. Research funding organizations (e.g. in Austria, I believe also in Germany) have also turned to encouraging (or even requiring) open access publication for the results of the projects they support. Regardless of some problems that this creates (changes in financing models, mostly), it also creates, I think, great opportunities when it comes to making research accessible to colleagues in countries with an underdeveloped library infrastructure. It's worth thinking about in connection with the financial barriers that Michael Hahn so eloquently describes. What I am wondering specifically in connection with Indological studies: whence the "enormous cost of publishing books an all types of 'oriental' topics in the so-called developed countries", as Michael Hahn puts it? Why, for instance, does the set of Oskar von Hin?ber's "Kleine Schriften" that was recently announced cost 178 Euros? Do the publishers take such great care with editing, layout and design as to justify such a price? (The technology required to typeset books in Asian languages can no longer justify such prices.) And if not: Why do authors decide to publish with publishers when they know exorbitant prices will be charged for their books? Is it because the publication with a major established publisher is believed to make more impact than a cheaper publication with one that is lesser known? Is it the publisher's reputation that people hope will also reflect on the reputation of their books? Is it the expected professionality of distribution, is it a hope for fame? Is it just habit, a lack of knowledge that other possibilities might exist? Curiously yours, Birgit Kellner Michael Hahn wrote: > The recent contributions of Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi and Walter > Slaje to the list touch a fundamental problem that affects the work of > many scholars working in various of Indian Studies ("South Asian > Studies", to be politically correct) and which should be mentioned here, > if only brief: The factual existence of a two class system that is > caused by two barriers which are indeed hard to overcome --- the > financial barrier and the language barrier. The financial barrier is > mainly caused by the enormous cost of publishing books on all types of > "oriental" topics in the so-called developed countries. The result are > prohibitive prices that put these publications out of the reach of most > scholars. There are only a few places in the world --- in the North > America, some European countries and Japan --- where researchers enjoy > practically unimpeded access to the fruits of their colleagues' works, > also thanks to a functioning interlibrary loan system. The second > factor, the cost of an adequate technical equipment, is fortunately > becoming less decisive because of the rapidly decreasing prices for > computer hard and software and internet charges. The problem of the > high prices of books and journals is at least partially overcome by the > laudable enterprises of Indian and other Asian publishers who are on a > large scale reprinting older important works and in an increasing > number also recent publications, with the permission of the original > publishers. And the costs of exchange of texts, documents and papers > via the internet (occasionally in a legally grey or even dark zone) > have also drastically dropped > > I have experienced both situations: to work in institutes with fairly > well (or even excellently) equipped libraries during two of my > assignments at German universities, as visiting scholar in the USA, > England, or Japan, and to have to work with a small library and an > entirely inadequate budget during my assignment at small university in > Germany where I felt to be not much better of than my colleagues in > India. The situation was partly made up through the exchange of > publications with and the possibility of buying privately at least some > of the books that the institute could not afford. > > > From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Fri Mar 6 07:01:29 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 08:01:29 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <49B0C46D.8050208@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227085237.23782.15417867180218018278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A small note on Birgit's thoughtful contribution: On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Birgit Kellner wrote: > ... > > What I am wondering specifically in connection with Indological studies: > whence the "enormous cost of publishing books an all types of 'oriental' > topics in the so-called developed countries", as Michael Hahn puts it? Why, > for instance, does the set of Oskar von Hin?ber's "Kleine Schriften" that > was recently announced cost 178 Euros? Do the publishers take such great > care with editing, layout and design as to justify such a price? (The > technology required to typeset books in Asian languages can no longer > justify such prices.) And if not: Why do authors decide to publish with > publishers when they know exorbitant prices will be charged for their books? > Is it because the publication with a major established publisher is believed > to make more impact than a cheaper publication with one that is lesser > known? Is it the publisher's reputation that people hope will also reflect > on the reputation of their books? Is it the expected professionality of > distribution, is it a hope for fame? Is it just habit, a lack of knowledge > that other possibilities might exist? > What Birgit delicately does not mention (apophatic discourse?) is that of course with the exception of the introduction and Table of Contents, and sometimes index, in these Glasenapp volumes, the entire thing is no more than a photoreprint of already published materials (sometimes, in the case anyway of Weller's work, for example, in barely legible copies). In Japan, we find the mere binding of computer printouts. The recent volume on the, if I recall correctly, Samyuktagama, from Sankibo costs 8000 yen, about 70 Euros or so, for a paperback volume that could have been distributed by the author in *exactly the same form* (in pdf, allowing readers to print and bind it themselves) entirely freely. Why? (All the more so for fancy LaTex stuff...) It may be that we need to work at changing the culture of value, that we need to break the link between big-name publishers and scholarly value. Heaven knows, each and every one of us could come up with an extensive list of just bad books published by 'reputable' houses... I would like to emphasize that, like many of us, I *love* books, as physical objects among other things, and I am *not* arguing for doing away with them! But when you've got publishers publishing books with huge subventions from funding bodies, and still charging outrageous prices, (and I confess I am on the board of one such series), this is just, as we say to our kids, "not OK." Maybe, as again Birgit says, the/a way to start is with funding bodies. Already they stipulate from time to time exactly how much 'skim' universities may take from grants. Maybe we should ask them to require free or 'reasonably priced' publication of all works for which they pay in the first place? (Then, how to define 'reasonable'?) sorry--the small note became not quite so small... jonathan J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Fri Mar 6 08:03:00 2009 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 08:03:00 +0000 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm Message-ID: <161227085239.23782.13230677715797143477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the MBh context, this passage refers to the mentally detached attitude of a "(jiivan-)mukta" of the Grhastha type, taking King Janaka as a model. Liberated (mukta) from involvement and internally unaffected by the destruction of even his capital, he nonetheless refuses to renounce the world, remains active, keeping to his duties with a non-intentional mind. For details, see Walter Slaje: Towards a history of the jivanmukti concept: The Mok?adharma in the Mahabharata In: Haranandalahari. Volume in Honour of Professor Minoru Hara on his Seventieth Birthday, ed. by Ryutaro Tsuchida and Albrecht Wezler. Reinbek 2000, pp. 325-348. WS ---------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri Mar 6 02:54:37 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 08:24:37 +0530 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt Message-ID: <161227085222.23782.1650374076653756585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ? 06?02 0 As I see it Dr.Thrasher's idea?is?correct. It is the Grierson like surprise and obliviousnress about the situtaion in Europe ie?Greco-Latin :: West European languages (exclude German)??that puzzle me. In any case mine was not an accusation but just a call attention note. Greetings for all! DB --- On Fri, 6/3/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: From: Allen W Thrasher Subject: Re: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 6 March, 2009, 12:28 AM It's probably not important, but I want to clarify that when I said, "Anyway, modern languages differ radically in the extent to which they expand vocabulary by borrowing rather than by translation, invention from native vocabulary, calqueing, or the like, don't they?,"? I was referring to modern languages throughout the world, not specifically modern South Asian languages. Allen Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Mar 6 08:13:46 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 09:13:46 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <49B0C46D.8050208@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227085241.23782.18345310529293413763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Why > for instance, does the set of Oskar von Hin?ber's "Kleine Schriften" that was > recently announced cost 178 Euros? Do the publishers take such great care > with editing, layout and design as to justify such a price? (The technology > required to typeset books in Asian languages can no longer justify such > prices.) And if not: Why do authors decide to publish with publishers when > they know exorbitant prices will be charged for their books? Is it because > the publication with a major established publisher is believed to make more > impact than a cheaper publication with one that is lesser known? Is it the > publisher's reputation that people hope will also reflect on the reputation > of their books? Is it the expected professionality of distribution, is it a > hope for fame? Is it just habit, a lack of knowledge that other possibilities > might exist? I have it from senior figures in the publishing business that the cost of typesetting and production is a small part of a publisher's costs with respect to the overall budget of publishing a book. Marketing, storage, distribution, and advertising form the major expenses. Hence, on-demand printing is being explored as a way of reducing warehousing costs, for example. Publication with a major established publisher certainly does make a difference to reception and judgement. While we all prefer the idea of a pure-knowledge approach, that we will read and value something important and well-written wherever it was published (or in whatever language), the indisputable fact remains that a high-profile press such as Princeton, Chicago, Berkeley, Cambridge or OUP will still carry weight. The production values are high, and people assume there has been a diligent selection and editing process preceding publication. This is especially true for people who are not themselves in the research field, but often have to make judgements that affect jobs, promotion, etc. These high-cost publishers have Brand Presence in the market, and that is where the money goes, at least partly. Brand awareness is an extremely serious matter in the world of business, and it costs to create it and to maintain it. And publishing companies have to provide profits that satisfy their shareholders. As Birgit says, we are living through a huge change, and Open Access journal publishing is going to affect us all directly. It will take some years for all this to settle down into a new model of scholarly production. Bear in mind that although OA is great for the reader, it means the author bears the cost of publication. To have an OA article in a Springer journal costs ?2000 at the moment. To have an OA article in the Lancet is ?400 per page. PER PAGE! These prices are typical of the big houses, Springer, Elsevier, etc. But not all journals are this expensive, and it does seem possible to run an OA journal publishing business on fees of about $400-$500 per article. Nevertheless, what about academic authors who do not have institutional budgets behind them to support their publishing? For scholars in developing economies, OA provides better read-access, but raises new economic barriers to getting work published. There are some business models that seek to solve this issue, but they have not been implemented by any publisher I know. Best, Dominik From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Fri Mar 6 08:19:17 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 09:19:17 +0100 Subject: Publication announcement : on the dating of Kani.ska In-Reply-To: <20090305230354.E243.HAHN.M@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085244.23782.8362779758375590536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Looking at the table of contents of >Bauddhasahityastabakavali, and the article of >Karl-Heinz GOLZIO "Zur Datierung des Ku.sa.na-K?nigs Kani.ska", it reminds me that I came across a recent reference on the same subject, which is a detailed study from the numismatic point of view, in a periodical (famous for being the oldest literary one in Europe, founded in 1665 AD and now published by the French Acad?mie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres) which could have escape the attention of the Indologists: BOPEARACHCHI Osmund, "Les premiers souverains kouchans : chronologie et iconographie mon?taire", in Journal des Savants, Janvier-Juin 2008, pp. ?? (on the author, who had published in 1991 : Monnaies gr?co-bactriennes et indo-grecques, catalogue raisonn?, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmund_Bopearachchi Best wishes, Christophe Vielle >Bauddhasahityastabakavali: Essays and Studies on Buddhist Sanskrit >Literature Dedicated to Claus Vogel by Colleagues, Students, and >Friends. Edited by Dragomir Dimitrov, Michael Hahn, and Roland >Steiner. Marburg 2008, xxvi, 351 pp., hardcover (Indica et Tibetica, >Band 36), ISBN: 978-3-923776-36-8, Price: EUR 48,00 > >This volume contains a bibliography of Professor Claus Vogel?s >publications and 15 papers (10 in German, 5 in English), all but one >dealing with Buddhist topics (critical editions, translations, text- >critical, historical, and literary studies). > >Table of Contents: > >Preface ix > >Peter WYZLIC >Publications of Claus Vogel xi > >Heinz BECHERT >Kavya-Literatur in der fr?hen und mittelalterlichen Tradition der >Singhalesen in Sri Lanka 1 > >Siglinde DIETZ >Mat?ce?as *Caturviparyasajihasakatha 17 > >Dragomir DIMITROV >Some Remarks on the Rupyavatyavadana of the Divyavadana(mala) 45 > >Helmut EIMER >?berlegungen zur ?berlieferungsgeschichte des tibetischen >Buddhacarita 65 > >Karl-Heinz GOLZIO >Zur Datierung des Ku?a?a-K?nigs Kani?ka I. 79 > >Michael HAHN >The Sanskrit Text of J?anasrimitra?s V?ttamalastuti 93 > >J?rgen HANNEDER >Candradasa?s Tarastuti 171 > >Jens-Uwe HARTMANN >Vasumitras Darsanapa?casatstava: Ein Buddha-Hymnus aus >Ostturkistan 187 > >Konrad KLAUS >Metrische und textkritische Untersuchungen zur Ra??rapalaparip?ccha: >Die alten Arya-Strophen 199 > >Philipp A. MAAS: A Phylogenetic Approach to the Transmission of the >Tibetan Kanjur ?the Ak?ayamatinirdesa Revisited 229 > >Klaus-Dieter MATHES: The Sri Sabarapadastotraratna of Vanaratna >245 > >Mamiko und Yukihiro OKADA: Zum Verh?ltnis des Lalitavistara zur >Ratnaku?a-Sammlung: Die Sage von Syama und Ruci (Lalitavistara >XIII.[32]) 269 > >Wilhelm RAU: Der Magnet im Alten Indien: Sanskrit Parallelen zu >Plinius: Naturalis Historia 34.42 285 > >Roland STEINER: Glossar (Sanskrit-Deutsch-Tibetisch) zum ersten >Gesang von Asvagho?as Buddhacarita 291 > >Klaus WILLE: Neue Fragmente des Candrasutra 339 > >www.iet-verlag.de > >--- >Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn >Ritterstr. 14 >D-35287 Amoeneburg >Tel. +49-6422-938963 >Fax: +49-6422-938967 >E-mail: hahn.m at t-online.de >URL: staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~hahnm -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From jpeterso at UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE Fri Mar 6 08:26:47 2009 From: jpeterso at UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE (John Peterson) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 09:26:47 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085246.23782.8391792441252747543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Bear in mind that although OA is great for the reader, it means the author > bears the cost of publication. To have an OA article in a Springer > journal costs ?2000 at the moment. To have an OA article in the Lancet is > ?400 per page. PER PAGE! These prices are typical of the big houses, > Springer, Elsevier, etc. But not all journals are this expensive, and it > does seem possible to run an OA journal publishing business on fees of > about $400-$500 per article. Nevertheless, what about academic authors > who do not have institutional budgets behind them to support their > publishing? > Just a thought: There is already a small, but steadily increasing number of online, free-access journals for South Asian languages (a number are listed on my homepage, see below - more suggestions are ALWAYS welcome!). Would it not be a good idea to expand this type of publishing in general, in e.g. Classical South Asian studies as well? BTW: I myself am also involved in one of these more pricey series for monographs that have been discussed, so I am definitely not pointing fingers at anyone! But still, at least the journals I am referring to here are all peer reviewed and receive pretty much the same editing, etc. as any other comparable printed journal. The benefits are, of course, obvious - anyone anywhere can print out the articles freely, and since they are peer reviewed, they have (at least in my opinion) the same high standing as other journals. This is, incidentally, a growing trend in linguistics in general, not just South Asian linguistics, and one which I highly welcome. I'm not sure whether this can/should be extended to monographs in general, but at least with respect to journals it is definitely an idea worth considering. But for journals, it's already proven itself to be a viable alternative. Best, John -- John Peterson FB 7, Sprachwissenschaft Universit?t Osnabr?ck Neuer Graben 41 D-49069 Osnabr?ck Germany Telephone: (+49) (0)541-969 4252 Telefax: (+49) (0)541-969 4256 Homepages: http://www.ling.uni-osnabrueck.de/mitarbeiter/johpeter http://www.SouthAsiaBibliography.de/ From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Mar 6 09:00:15 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 10:00:15 +0100 Subject: AW: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085248.23782.3644056840217918894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Hart wrote: I can testify that there is an enormous scholarly literature in Tamil that is important for Indological studies -- and that it is in no way inferior in quality or learning to what is in German or English. The same is true of Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu -- and I suspect of the major North Indian languages. I would be interested to hear where any of the topics covered in Oskar von Hin?ber's "Kleine Schriften" are treated in these languages. If a student came to me and asked whether she should learn French, German, Tamil or Telugu, (...) I take it from George Hart's words that not too many students come to him to ask his advice in these matters. RG ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm From acharyadiwakar at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 6 02:02:11 2009 From: acharyadiwakar at HOTMAIL.COM (diwakar acharya) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 11:02:11 +0900 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <20090306013552.GC6330@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227085215.23782.8576183550343024993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dears, > > Mithila was just taken as the greatest and richest city Is not it the case that Mithila is the city of the philosopher king Janaka? That's why Mithila have special value, and the statement quoted is attributed to Janaka. Best regards, Diwakar _________________________________________________________________ More than messages?check out the rest of the Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Fri Mar 6 11:26:44 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 12:26:44 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085251.23782.14850873171286674559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't think it makes sense to oppose the need to read books (or journal) in German and the need to read books (or journals) in Tamil. Take the case of somebody who is interested in Tamil epigraphy. That person will probably have read Iravatham Mahadevan's book (/Early Tamil Epigraphy/, 2003, Cre-A [Chennai] and Harvard Oriental Series 62), which is in English. That person might be interested in reading Oskar von Hin?ber's 1986 book /Das ?ltere Mittelindisch im ?berblick/, Wien, which is in German, because it makes sense to try to understand the languages with which Tamil was in contact. That person might be a regular subscriber to the journal /?????/ [Avanam, Journal of the TamilNadu Archaeological Society, Thanjavur], which is purely in Tamil, because it is the most efficient way to be informed of new discoveries in the field of Tamil epigraphy and because it is edited by very competent scholars. The more languages one knows, the better. -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot) Gruenendahl, Reinhold a ?crit : > George Hart wrote: > >> I can testify that there is an enormous scholarly literature in Tamil that is >> important for Indological studies -- and that it is in no way inferior in >> quality or learning to what is in German or English. The same is true of >> Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu -- and I suspect of the major North Indian >> languages. > > I would be interested to hear where any of the topics covered in Oskar von > Hin?ber's "Kleine Schriften" are treated in these languages. > > > > From dimitrov at STAFF.UNI-MARBURG.DE Sat Mar 7 00:20:30 2009 From: dimitrov at STAFF.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Dragomir Dimitrov) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 09 01:20:30 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085255.23782.15855013119063075477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I don't think it makes sense to oppose the need to read books (or > journal) in German [...] For those Sanskritists in search of a suitable German textbook, it may be useful to recall what George Abraham Grierson has remarked in his review of Bruno Liebich's "Sanskrit-Lesebuch" (1905): "Again, while the book will introduce Sanskrit to Europeans, it will equally well introduce German to Sanskrit Pa??its. If even half-a-dozen good Pa??its are helped to acquire German by its pages, it will have done excellent work." (Indian Antiquary. Vol. XXXV. Bombay 1906, p. 184). Liebich's Sanskrit Reader can be had for free from http://books.google.com. Cheers, D.D. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Dr. Dragomir Dimitrov FG Indologie und Tibetologie, Philipps-Universit?t Marburg Deutschhausstra?e 12, D-35032 Marburg, Germany http://www.uni-marburg.de/fb10/ios/indologie/dimitrov = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU Sat Mar 7 21:10:05 2009 From: rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Rosane Rocher) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 09 16:10:05 -0500 Subject: Tamil translation of the MitAk.sarA Message-ID: <161227085264.23782.5055435606423643399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, Might any one know if a Tamil translation of the Mitaksara, Vijnanesvara's commentary on the Yajnavalkyasmrti, begun by Porur Vadiyar, which his brother Chidambara Vadiyar, headmaster of Tamil at the College of Fort St George, completed after his death and submitted in 1815 for publication by the Madras government, was ever published? I would be grateful, Rosane Rocher From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Sat Mar 7 15:36:25 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 09 16:36:25 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085257.23782.17042866226793931851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have not seen von Glasenapp will myself, so this is just hearsay. I was once told that he wanted his estate to provide scholarships for poor students of Indology, but his will was ?perverted? by the colleagues who were responsible for its execution in order to establish that series. Quoting Jonathan Silk : > A small note on Birgit's thoughtful contribution: > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Birgit Kellner > wrote: > >> ... > > > >> >> What I am wondering specifically in connection with Indological studies: >> whence the "enormous cost of publishing books an all types of 'oriental' >> topics in the so-called developed countries", as Michael Hahn puts it? Why, >> for instance, does the set of Oskar von Hin?ber's "Kleine Schriften" that >> was recently announced cost 178 Euros? Do the publishers take such great >> care with editing, layout and design as to justify such a price? (The >> technology required to typeset books in Asian languages can no longer >> justify such prices.) And if not: Why do authors decide to publish with >> publishers when they know exorbitant prices will be charged for their books? >> Is it because the publication with a major established publisher is believed >> to make more impact than a cheaper publication with one that is lesser >> known? Is it the publisher's reputation that people hope will also reflect >> on the reputation of their books? Is it the expected professionality of >> distribution, is it a hope for fame? Is it just habit, a lack of knowledge >> that other possibilities might exist? >> > > What Birgit delicately does not mention (apophatic discourse?) is that of > course with the exception of the introduction and Table of Contents, and > sometimes index, in these Glasenapp volumes, the entire thing is no more > than a photoreprint of already published materials (sometimes, in the case > anyway of Weller's work, for example, in barely legible copies). In Japan, > we find the mere binding of computer printouts. The recent volume on the, > if I recall correctly, Samyuktagama, from Sankibo costs 8000 yen, about 70 > Euros or so, for a paperback volume that could have been distributed by the > author in *exactly the same form* (in pdf, allowing readers to print and > bind it themselves) entirely freely. Why? (All the more so for fancy LaTex > stuff...) > > It may be that we need to work at changing the culture of value, that we > need to break the link between big-name publishers and scholarly value. > Heaven knows, each and every one of us could come up with an extensive list > of just bad books published by 'reputable' houses... > > I would like to emphasize that, like many of us, I *love* books, as physical > objects among other things, and I am *not* arguing for doing away with them! > But when you've got publishers publishing books with huge subventions from > funding bodies, and still charging outrageous prices, (and I confess I am on > the board of one such series), this is just, as we say to our kids, "not > OK." Maybe, as again Birgit says, the/a way to start is with funding bodies. > Already they stipulate from time to time exactly how much 'skim' > universities may take from grants. Maybe we should ask them to require free > or 'reasonably priced' publication of all works for which they pay in the > first place? (Then, how to define 'reasonable'?) > > sorry--the small note became not quite so small... > > jonathan > > > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Postbus 9515 > 2300 RA Leiden > Netherlands > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Sat Mar 7 19:22:00 2009 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 09 19:22:00 +0000 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085260.23782.1997502808225560186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I have not seen von Glasenapp will myself, so this is just hearsay. I was once told that he wanted his estate to provide scholarships for poor students of Indology, but his will was ?perverted? by the colleagues who were responsible for its execution in order to establish that series. Someone or other may be inclined to spread rumours of "perverted" wills based on "just hearsay". Scholars, in particular, may however be interested rather in facts based on evidence: On the will of Helmuth von Glasenapp and its legal execution everybody who so wishes can inform themselves by simply consulting the site http://www.glasenapp-stiftung.de/40jahre.pdf (available 24hours/day; details on p. 3ff). Should the information given there be considered insufficient, further details can be got from the administration office: Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung c/o Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur Geschwister-Scholl-Stra?e 2 55131 Mainz Ansprechpartner: Dr. Carlo Servatius, Tel. 06131 16-2808, Fax 06131 16-4151 WS --------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Sat Mar 7 20:46:14 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 09 20:46:14 +0000 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <1Lg26n-2ISz0C0@fwd01.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085262.23782.7223463149895987745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for this clarification, but do you really have to be so offensive? Does it make you feel better about yourself? And no, the information there is not sufficient. Quoting Walter Slaje : >> I have not seen von Glasenapp will myself, so this is just hearsay. I > was once told that he wanted his estate to provide scholarships for > poor students of Indology, but his will was ?perverted? by the > colleagues who were responsible for its execution in order to > establish that series. > > Someone or other may be inclined to spread rumours of "perverted" > wills based on "just hearsay". Scholars, in particular, may however > be interested rather in facts based on evidence: On the will of > Helmuth von Glasenapp and its legal execution everybody who so > wishes can inform themselves by simply consulting the site > http://www.glasenapp-stiftung.de/40jahre.pdf (available 24hours/day; > details on p. 3ff). > Should the information given there be considered insufficient, > further details can be got from the administration office: > > > Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung > c/o Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur > Geschwister-Scholl-Stra?e 2 > 55131 Mainz > Ansprechpartner: > Dr. Carlo Servatius, Tel. 06131 16-2808, Fax 06131 16-4151 > > > WS > > --------------------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Sun Mar 8 14:28:20 2009 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 09 08:28:20 -0600 Subject: Forwarded Announcement In-Reply-To: <1212045754-5579.00013.00009-smmsdV2.1.6@smtp.bgsu.edu> Message-ID: <161227085274.23782.4992848154871144019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings to All. I am attaching a message that the organizers wanted me to broadcast. It is a conference on Asian religion and philosophy to be held in St. Petersburg -- in Februuary 2010 -- if you like the cold!! the organizer is Sergey Pakhomov Thanks. Patrick *************** SAINT-PETERSBURG STATE UNIVERSITY FACULTY OF PHILOSOPHY AND POLITICAL STUDIES DEPARTMENT OF EASTERN PHILOSOPHY AND CULTURE PHILOSOPHICAL SOCIETY OF SAINT-PETERSBURG 6th International Scientific Conference of Philosophy, Religion and Culture of Asian Countries (Torchinov readings) IDEALS - NORMS - VALUES CALL FOR PAPERS The SIXTH annual international scientific conference named in honor of Evgeny Torchinov (1956 - 2003), an outstanding Russian researcher of Asian cultures and methods of religions, is going to be held at the Faculty of Philosophy and Political Studies of the Saint-Petersburg State University (Russia) 3 - 6th February, 2010. The central focus of issues at the Readings this time will be concentrated on investigations of ideals, norms and values of Eastern cultures. POSSIBLE THEMES TO BE DISCUSSED: o Ideals of Asian religious traditions o Notions of values, ideals and norms in Asian systems of philosophy o Ideal society and ideal man at the East o System of values in Asian cultures o Oriental cultures in Western countries: exotics or norm? o Western values and norms in Asian countries: adoption and a rejection o Axiological imperatives in the era of the globalization: a contribution of the East o Understanding the spiritual values of Asian cultures in Russia and in countries of the West o Reflection of ideals of Asian traditions in literature and art o Systems of norms and the ideal of an individual in Asian traditions o Asian psycho technologies and norms of ordinary consciousness Sections of the conference will be formed on the basis of applications. The names of expected sections and announced rubricating might vary. As usual, Torchinov conference will strive for creating and keeping a multidisciplinary space for fruitful change of ideas between specialists studying different types, images and categories of Asian cultures; will tend to form new scientific approaches and methods in the field of Oriental studies; to elaborate theories and philosophy of Oriental investigations. Scholars and researchers of different aspects of philosophy, religion and culture of Asia are invited to take part in the conference. Also we invite philosophers, historians, anthropologists, psychologists and specialists in religious studies investigating Eastern range of issues. An application for the participation should be filled in electronic format at the conference's site which address is following: http://torchinov.ru/ru/reg_form/ There is a possibility for a participation in the conference without publication of your paper in the book of collected articles. Extramural participation isn't supposed. Dead-line of applications for non-residents of Russia is September 13, 2009. Besides that Org. committee accepts applications for the organization of round tables, presentations, proposals for organizations of cultural program till the end of December, 2009 Working languages of the conference are Russian and English. By the beginning of conference, we shall have planned to publish and distribute among the authors the CDs with summaries and full texts of papers in format of pdf. Publication of the collection on paper is planned after the conference, during 2010. A paper with size not more than 10.000-15.000 signs (in Word statistics), including gaps and footnotes must be sent for the publication. When designing the article, you must use as a pattern the technical example of execution of the text, which is on the site of the conference. Materials must be sent for the publication till September 13, 2009. Org. fee for participants not from Russia and from countries of CIS is 30 euro. This fee is to be paid on the day of the registration, i.e. the 1st day of the conference. All questions are welcome by e-mail: info at torchinov.ru/ Additional information about the conference is also at our site, see: http://torchinov.ru/ Organizational committee: Dr. Yury Solonin (President) P. Olivelle, PhD, professor (Univ. of Texas, Austin, USA) J. Mc-Rae, PhD, professor (Komazawa Univ., Tokyo, Japan) R. Gimello, Ph D, professor (Univ. of Notre Dame, Indiana, USA) Dr. Victor Petrenko Dr. Alexander Boronoev Dr. Prof. Marina Kravtsova Dr. Prof. Anatoly Kolesnikov Dr. Vladimir Emelyanov Dr. Cyril Solonin Dr. Tigran Tumanyan Dr. Sergey Pakhomov (general coordinator) Our contacts: Post address: 199034, Russia, Saint-Petersburg, Vasilievsky ostrov, Mendeleevskaya liniya, 5, Faculty of Philosophy, Department of Eastern Philosophy and Culture, room 110. Tel.: 7-812-328-9421 (additional 1852). E-mail: info at torchinov.ru Site: http://torchinov.ru From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Sun Mar 8 14:24:33 2009 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 09 10:24:33 -0400 Subject: OFFLIST -- Re: Forwarded Announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085276.23782.5727425920121420148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Olivelle, I noticed that the English language version of the "Registration Page" is actually still in Russian. See: http://torchinov.ru/en/reg_form Since you are listed as a member of the organizational committee, I thought I would pass this on to you. best wishes, Paul Hackett Columbia University Quoting Patrick Olivelle : > Greetings to All. I am attaching a message that the organizers wanted > me to broadcast. It is a conference on Asian religion and philosophy to > be held in St. Petersburg -- in Februuary 2010 -- if you like the > cold!! the organizer is Sergey Pakhomov > > Thanks. > > Patrick > > *************** > > SAINT-PETERSBURG STATE UNIVERSITY > FACULTY OF PHILOSOPHY AND POLITICAL STUDIES > DEPARTMENT OF EASTERN PHILOSOPHY AND CULTURE > PHILOSOPHICAL SOCIETY OF SAINT-PETERSBURG > > 6th International Scientific Conference of Philosophy, Religion and > Culture of Asian Countries (Torchinov readings) > IDEALS - NORMS - VALUES > > CALL FOR PAPERS > > The SIXTH annual international scientific conference named in honor of > Evgeny Torchinov (1956 - 2003), an outstanding Russian researcher of > Asian cultures and methods of religions, is going to be held at the > Faculty of Philosophy and Political Studies of the Saint-Petersburg > State University (Russia) 3 - 6th February, 2010. > The central focus of issues at the Readings this time will be > concentrated on investigations of ideals, norms and values of Eastern > cultures. > POSSIBLE THEMES TO BE DISCUSSED: > o Ideals of Asian religious traditions > o Notions of values, ideals and norms in Asian systems of philosophy > o Ideal society and ideal man at the East > o System of values in Asian cultures > o Oriental cultures in Western countries: exotics or norm? > o Western values and norms in Asian countries: adoption and a rejection > o Axiological imperatives in the era of the globalization: a > contribution of the East > o Understanding the spiritual values of Asian cultures in Russia and in > countries of the West > o Reflection of ideals of Asian traditions in literature and art > o Systems of norms and the ideal of an individual in Asian traditions > o Asian psycho technologies and norms of ordinary consciousness > Sections of the conference will be formed on the basis of applications. > The names of expected sections and announced rubricating might vary. > As usual, Torchinov conference will strive for creating and keeping a > multidisciplinary space for fruitful change of ideas between > specialists studying different types, images and categories of Asian > cultures; will tend to form new scientific approaches and methods in > the field of Oriental studies; to elaborate theories and philosophy of > Oriental investigations. > Scholars and researchers of different aspects of philosophy, religion > and culture of Asia are invited to take part in the conference. Also we > invite philosophers, historians, anthropologists, psychologists and > specialists in religious studies investigating Eastern range of issues. > An application for the participation should be filled in electronic > format at the conference's site which address is following: > http://torchinov.ru/ru/reg_form/ There is a possibility for a > participation in the conference without publication of your paper in > the book of collected articles. Extramural participation isn't supposed. > Dead-line of applications for non-residents of Russia is September 13, 2009. > Besides that Org. committee accepts applications for the organization > of round tables, presentations, proposals for organizations of cultural > program till the end of December, 2009 > Working languages of the conference are Russian and English. > > By the beginning of conference, we shall have planned to publish and > distribute among the authors the CDs with summaries and full texts of > papers in format of pdf. Publication of the collection on paper is > planned after the conference, during 2010. A paper with size not more > than 10.000-15.000 signs (in Word statistics), including gaps and > footnotes must be sent for the publication. When designing the article, > you must use as a pattern the technical example of execution of the > text, which is on the site of the conference. Materials must be sent > for the publication till September 13, 2009. > Org. fee for participants not from Russia and from countries of CIS is > 30 euro. This fee is to be paid on the day of the registration, i.e. > the 1st day of the conference. > All questions are welcome by e-mail: info at torchinov.ru/ Additional > information about the conference is also at our site, see: > http://torchinov.ru/ > > Organizational committee: > > Dr. Yury Solonin (President) > P. Olivelle, PhD, professor (Univ. of Texas, Austin, USA) > J. Mc-Rae, PhD, professor (Komazawa Univ., Tokyo, Japan) > R. Gimello, Ph D, professor (Univ. of Notre Dame, Indiana, USA) > Dr. Victor Petrenko > Dr. Alexander Boronoev > Dr. Prof. Marina Kravtsova > Dr. Prof. Anatoly Kolesnikov > Dr. Vladimir Emelyanov > Dr. Cyril Solonin > Dr. Tigran Tumanyan > Dr. Sergey Pakhomov (general coordinator) > > Our contacts: > Post address: 199034, Russia, Saint-Petersburg, Vasilievsky ostrov, > Mendeleevskaya liniya, 5, Faculty of Philosophy, Department of Eastern > Philosophy and Culture, room 110. > Tel.: 7-812-328-9421 (additional 1852). > E-mail: info at torchinov.ru > Site: http://torchinov.ru From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Sun Mar 8 06:37:24 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 09 12:07:24 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_CALL_FOR_SUPPORT>_SARIT:_Search_and_Retrieval_of__Indic_Texts______________=E2=80=93_Future_Development_(Wujastyk/Mahoney)?= In-Reply-To: <1236474754.24334.304.camel@proliant> Message-ID: <161227085269.23782.12175521497256573163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > > > > 8.3.09 > > Dr. Dominik WUJASTYK, > International Institute of Asian Studies, > Nonnensteeg 1-3, > 2311 VJ Leiden, > The Netherlands > > > > Dear Dr. Wujastyk, > > > I am writing this letter to express my support for your SARIT proposal: > ``SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts ? Future Development''. I > have used/plan to use the material available through the INDOLOGY web > site and the SARIT web application to advance my work on [RESEARCH > TOPIC]. I look forward to using the expanded version of SARIT. > > > > > The aims of your proposal will greatly enhance such efforts by enabling > me to use SARIT for textual and philological research. I wish you > success in these endeavours. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi > Head, Dept of Darshanas, > Yoganandacharya Bhavan, > Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post > Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. > From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Sun Mar 8 06:39:11 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 09 12:09:11 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_CALL_FOR_SUPPORT>_SARIT:_Search_and_Retrieval_of__Indic_Texts______________=E2=80=93_Future_Development_(Wujastyk/Mahoney)?= In-Reply-To: <965fdc5f0903072237m39cd73bqf399f78b2da55e5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227085271.23782.13829770896397297686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I sincerely apolagise for sending the letter supposed to be sent to Dr. Dominik WUJASTYK, sorry veeranarayana Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Sun Mar 8 01:12:35 2009 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 09 14:12:35 +1300 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?CALL_FOR_SUPPORT>_SARIT:_Search_and_Retrieval_of_Indic_Texts______________=E2=80=93_Future_Development_(Wujastyk/Mahoney)?= Message-ID: <161227085267.23782.10831686276653979056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Apologies for cross posting] Dear Colleagues, We are submitting a proposal to The British Association for South Asian Studies (BASAS) to request funding to increase the number of texts available through the `SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts' web application: http://sarit.indology.info/top.shtml To strengthen our proposal we are requesting letters of support from our users. We intend to increase the number of Indic texts included in the SARIT database, initially focusing on many of the texts generously contributed by the Kyoto scholars: http://www.cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~yanom/sanskrit/ Your letters of support are important for our proposal. They will give members of The BASAS Council a sense of the scale and scope of the user community of the INDOLOGY web site, and especially of SARIT. The BASAS Council members will make their funding decision on the basis of the following criteria: why you believe the INDOLOGY site and the SARIT Project are needed; and why you believe they are significant. We enclose below a sample letter of support. Please add a few sentences to this letter to indicate specifically how you or your students use or plan to use SARIT. After completing the letter could you please print it on your institution's letterhead and sign it. You can then: 1.) mail, or 2.) scan and email, or 3.) fax the letter as indicated below. ** Please note that the deadline for our proposal to The BASAS Council is Monday the 16th March, so please send your letters of support to us by Friday the 13th of March. ** 1.) Send your completed signed letter by ordinary mail to: Dr. Dominik WUJASTYK, International Institute of Asian Studies, Nonnensteeg 1-3, 2311 VJ Leiden, The Netherlands 2.) Scan your signed letter and email it to: Dominik WUJASTYK 3.) Fax your signed letter attention Dominik WUJASTYK to: +31-71-5274162 Thank you very much in advance for your help. With kind regards, Dominik WUJASTYK Richard MAHONEY ************* Begin Letter ************* [DATE] Dr. Dominik WUJASTYK, International Institute of Asian Studies, Nonnensteeg 1-3, 2311 VJ Leiden, The Netherlands Dear Dr. Wujastyk, I am writing this letter to express my support for your SARIT proposal: ``SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts ? Future Development''. I have used/plan to use the material available through the INDOLOGY web site and the SARIT web application to advance my work on [RESEARCH TOPIC]. I look forward to using the expanded version of SARIT. [Optional: EXAMPLE USES OF THE INDOLOGY WEB SITE AND SARIT IN TEACHING AND RESEARCH] The aims of your proposal will greatly enhance such efforts by enabling me to use SARIT for textual and philological research. I wish you success in these endeavours. Sincerely, [NAME TITLE ADDRESS] ************* End Letter ************* -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Sun Mar 8 23:58:34 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 00:58:34 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <1Lg26n-2ISz0C0@fwd01.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085278.23782.17022581682076139543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am now able to be a bit more precise about the source of the hearsay about Glasenapp?s wishes not being respected by the Glasenapp Foundation. It comes from a student of Paul Thieme, who heard it directly from Thieme himself. This does not make the hearsay true, but I also see no reason for them to make up such a story. As Dharmakirti said of the Buddha: vaiphalyaad vakti naan.r.nam. If Prof. Slaje has seen von Glasenapp?s will, perhaps he should tell us so, and if he hasn?t, he should not pretend to know what?s in it. The official homepage of the Glasenapp Foundation, to which he refers and in which the will is not quoted, is immaterial to the matter. Best wishes, Eli Franco Quoting Walter Slaje : >> I have not seen von Glasenapp will myself, so this is just hearsay. I > was once told that he wanted his estate to provide scholarships for > poor students of Indology, but his will was ?perverted? by the > colleagues who were responsible for its execution in order to > establish that series. > > Someone or other may be inclined to spread rumours of "perverted" > wills based on "just hearsay". Scholars, in particular, may however > be interested rather in facts based on evidence: On the will of > Helmuth von Glasenapp and its legal execution everybody who so > wishes can inform themselves by simply consulting the site > http://www.glasenapp-stiftung.de/40jahre.pdf (available 24hours/day; > details on p. 3ff). > Should the information given there be considered insufficient, > further details can be got from the administration office: > > > Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung > c/o Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur > Geschwister-Scholl-Stra?e 2 > 55131 Mainz > Ansprechpartner: > Dr. Carlo Servatius, Tel. 06131 16-2808, Fax 06131 16-4151 > > > WS > > --------------------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Mon Mar 9 08:19:00 2009 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 08:19:00 +0000 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085281.23782.1823466663225783140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would-be investigators are invited to accept my initial suggestion (repeated, I am afraid, again in vain) by starting to make their inquiries with the contact person of the HvG-Foundation: > > Should the information given there be considered insufficient, > > further details can be got from the administration office: > > Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung > > c/o Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur > > Geschwister-Scholl-Stra?e 2 > > 55131 Mainz > > Ansprechpartner: > > Dr. Carlo Servatius, Tel. 06131 16-2808, Fax 06131 16-4151 > > WS The list must not serve as a platform for insinuations, and detective games are better lived out in a private sphere. I am really sorry to say that - being under constant deadline pressure - I am forced to establish priorities and can no longer participate in pointless discussions. I have no time to mount Prof. Franco's hobbyhorse, but take it he feels happy enough being on it alone. ---------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK Mon Mar 9 10:38:49 2009 From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 10:38:49 +0000 Subject: Conference announcement: 22-23 May, Cambridge University Message-ID: <161227085283.23782.5807352615315309685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends and colleagues, I'm delighted to announce the upcoming workshop Bilingual Discourse and Cross-cultural Fertilisation: Sanskrit and Tamil in Mediaeval India, to be held at Wolfson College, Cambridge University 22 and 23 May, 2009. The workshop will be convened by Dr. Vincenzo Vergiani (Cambridge) and myself, and is possible thanks to the financial support of the British Academy. Details of the workshop, including (most of) the participants' abstracts can be found at the following URL: http://www.ames.cam.ac.uk/news_events/sanskrit-tamil-mediaeval-india.htm Not all of the abstracts are as yet posted (including both of the convenors'!) so please check back as the date draws nearer. All are welcome to attend, Best, Whitney -- Dr. Whitney Cox Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia, School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London WC1H 0XG From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 9 10:05:15 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 11:05:15 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Correction_of_postal_address_(was:_Re:_CALL_FOR_SUPPORT>_SARIT:______________Search_and_Retrieval_of_Indic_Texts_=E2=80=93_Future______________Development_(Wujastyk/Mahoney))?= In-Reply-To: <1236474754.24334.304.camel@proliant> Message-ID: <161227085285.23782.10962051933129831913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, If you wish to send a letter of support by post, kindly use this address: Dr Dominik Wujastyk, International Institute for Asian Studies, P.O. Box 9515 2300RA Leiden The Netherlands Rather than the "Nonnensteeg" address given in the original announcement. Many thanks, Dominik Wujastyk -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Sun, 8 Mar 2009, Richard MAHONEY wrote: > [Apologies for cross posting] > > > Dear Colleagues, > > We are submitting a proposal to The British Association for South Asian > Studies (BASAS) to request funding to increase the number of texts > available through the `SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts' web > application: > > http://sarit.indology.info/top.shtml > > To strengthen our proposal we are requesting letters of support from > our users. We intend to increase the number of Indic texts included in > the SARIT database, initially focusing on many of the texts generously > contributed by the Kyoto scholars: > > http://www.cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~yanom/sanskrit/ > > Your letters of support are important for our proposal. They will give > members of The BASAS Council a sense of the scale and scope of the user > community of the INDOLOGY web site, and especially of SARIT. The BASAS > Council members will make their funding decision on the basis of the > following criteria: why you believe the INDOLOGY site and the SARIT > Project are needed; and why you believe they are significant. > > We enclose below a sample letter of support. Please add a few sentences > to this letter to indicate specifically how you or your students use or > plan to use SARIT. After completing the letter could you please print > it on your institution's letterhead and sign it. You can then: > > 1.) mail, or > > 2.) scan and email, or > > 3.) fax the letter as indicated below. > > > ** Please note that the deadline for our proposal to The BASAS Council > is Monday the 16th March, so please send your letters of support to us > by Friday the 13th of March. ** > > > 1.) Send your completed signed letter by ordinary mail to: > > Dr. Dominik WUJASTYK, > International Institute of Asian Studies, > Nonnensteeg 1-3, > 2311 VJ Leiden, > The Netherlands > > > 2.) Scan your signed letter and email it to: > > Dominik WUJASTYK > > > 3.) Fax your signed letter attention Dominik WUJASTYK to: > > +31-71-5274162 > > > Thank you very much in advance for your help. > > > > With kind regards, > > Dominik WUJASTYK > Richard MAHONEY > > > > ************* > Begin Letter > ************* > > [DATE] > > Dr. Dominik WUJASTYK, > International Institute of Asian Studies, > Nonnensteeg 1-3, > 2311 VJ Leiden, > The Netherlands > > > > Dear Dr. Wujastyk, > > > I am writing this letter to express my support for your SARIT proposal: > ``SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts ? Future Development''. I > have used/plan to use the material available through the INDOLOGY web > site and the SARIT web application to advance my work on [RESEARCH > TOPIC]. I look forward to using the expanded version of SARIT. > > > [Optional: EXAMPLE USES OF THE INDOLOGY WEB SITE AND SARIT IN TEACHING > AND RESEARCH] > > > The aims of your proposal will greatly enhance such efforts by enabling > me to use SARIT for textual and philological research. I wish you > success in these endeavours. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > [NAME > > TITLE > > ADDRESS] > > > ************* > End Letter > ************* > > > > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 9 11:28:31 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 12:28:31 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <33AB24D542634D22AAAD8754278B7094@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227085290.23782.6577343184344482342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The INDOLOGY forum has no moderator. Once you are a member of this list, you are free to post what you like, and your message is not intercepted or edited before it goes out in general circulation. When you join this forum, however, you *are* asked to read and then abide by the rules of the list, which are posted on the website. See http://indology.info and click on the right, "Scope and Guidelines". See also "RFC 1855", also on the right, for general rules of Netiquette that apply to all internet usage. The INDOLOGY committee's function is primarily to examine the CVs of scholars who apply for membership and to vote on admittance. We are very reluctant to intervene in any matters beyond this. Best, Dominik Wujastyk -- INDOLOGY committee member on duty this week. On Mon, 9 Mar 2009, victor van Bijlert wrote: > It seems this forum is being used to wage private battles. Perhaps the > moderator should discourage this type of discussions. They do not belong in > a forum that is allegedly devoted to discussing purely academic questions in > the field of Indology. > Victor van Bijlert > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Walter Slaje > Verzonden: maandag 9 maart 2009 9:19 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers > > Would-be investigators are invited to accept my initial suggestion > (repeated, I am afraid, again in vain) by starting to make their inquiries > with the contact person of the HvG-Foundation: > >>> Should the information given there be considered insufficient, >>> further details can be got from the administration office: > >>> Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung >>> c/o Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur >>> Geschwister-Scholl-Stra?e 2 >>> 55131 Mainz >>> Ansprechpartner: >>> Dr. Carlo Servatius, Tel. 06131 16-2808, Fax 06131 16-4151 > >>> WS > > The list must not serve as a platform for insinuations, and detective games > are better lived out in a private sphere. I am really sorry to say that - > being under constant deadline pressure - I am forced to establish priorities > and can no longer participate in pointless discussions. I have no time to > mount Prof. Franco's hobbyhorse, but take it he feels happy enough being on > it alone. > > > ---------------------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Mon Mar 9 12:16:18 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 13:16:18 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <1LgajU-1cGWeG0@fwd05.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085287.23782.17769049410346583853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems this forum is being used to wage private battles. Perhaps the moderator should discourage this type of discussions. They do not belong in a forum that is allegedly devoted to discussing purely academic questions in the field of Indology. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Walter Slaje Verzonden: maandag 9 maart 2009 9:19 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers Would-be investigators are invited to accept my initial suggestion (repeated, I am afraid, again in vain) by starting to make their inquiries with the contact person of the HvG-Foundation: > > Should the information given there be considered insufficient, > > further details can be got from the administration office: > > Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung > > c/o Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur > > Geschwister-Scholl-Stra?e 2 > > 55131 Mainz > > Ansprechpartner: > > Dr. Carlo Servatius, Tel. 06131 16-2808, Fax 06131 16-4151 > > WS The list must not serve as a platform for insinuations, and detective games are better lived out in a private sphere. I am really sorry to say that - being under constant deadline pressure - I am forced to establish priorities and can no longer participate in pointless discussions. I have no time to mount Prof. Franco's hobbyhorse, but take it he feels happy enough being on it alone. ---------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 9 12:19:00 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 13:19:00 +0100 Subject: Maurer's Sanskrit course In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085292.23782.13493270037983899699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It arrived last week, and I'm delighted. Over 830 pages with a newly-added subject index. Since Routledge's decision to reprint this 2-volume Sanskrit course as an affordable single-volume paperback was taken as a result of the urging of several members of this INDOLOGY forum, I hope we will support the purchase of the book as appropriate. see your local store, or http://astore.amazon.co.uk/theindologybooks Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Tue, 3 Feb 2009, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > If bought from amazon.co.uk, the book is ?29.75, with free postage in the UK. > > From w.t.douglas at ABDN.AC.UK Mon Mar 9 14:21:15 2009 From: w.t.douglas at ABDN.AC.UK (Will Tuladhar-Douglas) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 14:21:15 +0000 Subject: Maurer's Sanskrit course In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085295.23782.15945717467733196449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 9 Mar 2009, at 12:19, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > It arrived last week, and I'm delighted. Over 830 pages with a > newly-added subject index. > > Since Routledge's decision to reprint this 2-volume Sanskrit course > as an > affordable single-volume paperback was taken as a result of the > urging of > several members of this INDOLOGY forum, I hope we will support the > purchase of the book as appropriate. > Already in use by a fresh crop of Sanskrit students in Aberdeen. Excellent book. My thanks to the list, from my students, for making it available. -WBTD. - - -- --- ----- -------- ------------- Dr. Will Tuladhar-Douglas Anthropology, History: Religion, Ecology Scottish Centre for Himalayan Research University of Aberdeen +44 (0)1224 272 274 From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Mon Mar 9 15:11:48 2009 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 15:11:48 +0000 Subject: Summer Schools in Spoken Sanskrit and Nepali Message-ID: <161227085299.23782.10305025074837778519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We proudly announce that this year the tenth anniversary of the Summer School in Spoken Sanskrit takes place. Also again offered is the Nepali Crash Course: For information and online applications see http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/studium/summerschool.php Kindly forward this mail to anybody interested and make it known to your students. Axel Michaels Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels, University of Heidelberg, South Asia Institute, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, D-69120 Heidelberg, Tel. +49-6221-548917 / Fax +49-6221-546338, http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/index.html, http://www.ritualdynamik.uni-hd.de, http://vjc.uni-hd.de, Axel.Michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Mon Mar 9 14:58:22 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 15:58:22 +0100 Subject: AW: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085297.23782.10257663322103351650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 9 Mar 2009 at 13:16, victor van Bijlert wrote: > It seems this forum is being used to wage private battles. Perhaps the > moderator should discourage this type of discussions. They do not belong in > a forum that is allegedly devoted to discussing purely academic questions in > the field of Indology. > Victor van Bijlert I freely admit that this debate is quite a challenge for me. Actually my difficulties already started with the term "barriers". According to the OED, a barrier is something "to prevent access". Is it to be assumed, then, that some indologists publish(ed) in, say, German in order to prevent access to the results of their research? I also admit my profound ignorance of any number of languages that might be useful for my work. But it never occurred to me to see this as "a fence or obstruction erected [by someone else] to bar [my] advance" (roughly what the OED says). It is entirely up to me to learn these languages, and should I choose to ignore the material published in them, it is my sole responsibility. No tales of domination to be spun here! Victor van Bijlert could have voiced his concern way back when the debate turned to finance - hardly "purely academic questions". He didn't. And neither he nor any member of the committee intervene when Eli Franco started to spread rumors about the Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung, although they could hardly be called "well-considered" (as the INDOLOGY rules have it). So far he doesn't even seem to have considered the possibility that the reaction he provoked might have something to do with his behaviour. It is still a mystery to me how the debate was steered into the direction of the Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung, and I cannot see who expects to gain from this, except in terms of attention - undeserved attention, in my view. I would have wished for a little more gratitude and respect (if that isn't a forbidden word) for a foundation that has been of invaluable service to many scholars over decades. May it be an example for others. Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Mon Mar 9 16:15:23 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 17:15:23 +0100 Subject: AW: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085301.23782.13792315549211744733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let me assure you that I have no private battle with Prof. Slaje, nor with the Glasenapp Foundation, and that I consider the ?Kleine Schriften? series extremely useful, irrespectively of the question whether it was established according to Glasenapp?s wishes or not. It would be a good idea to establish similar series in other countries as well. It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. Best wishes EF Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > On 9 Mar 2009 at 13:16, victor van Bijlert wrote: > >> It seems this forum is being used to wage private battles. Perhaps the > >> moderator should discourage this type of discussions. They do not belong in > >> a forum that is allegedly devoted to discussing purely academic questions > in > >> the field of Indology. > >> Victor van Bijlert > > I freely admit that this debate is quite a challenge for me. Actually my > difficulties already started with the term "barriers". According to the OED, > a barrier is something "to prevent access". Is it to be assumed, then, that > some indologists publish(ed) in, say, German in order to prevent access to > the results of their research? > > I also admit my profound ignorance of any number of languages that might be > useful for my work. But it never occurred to me to see this as "a fence or > obstruction erected [by someone else] to bar [my] advance" (roughly what the > OED says). It is entirely up to me to learn these languages, and should I > choose to ignore the material published in them, it is my sole > responsibility. No tales of domination to be spun here! > > Victor van Bijlert could have voiced his concern way back when the debate > turned to finance - hardly "purely academic questions". He didn't. And > neither he nor any member of the committee intervene when Eli Franco started > to spread rumors about the Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung, although they > could hardly be called "well-considered" (as the INDOLOGY rules have it). So > far he doesn't even seem to have considered the possibility that the reaction > he provoked might have something to do with his behaviour. > > It is still a mystery to me how the debate was steered into the direction of > the Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung, and I cannot see who expects to gain from > this, except in terms of attention - undeserved attention, in my view. I > would have wished for a little more gratitude and respect (if that isn't a > forbidden word) for a foundation that has been of invaluable service to many > scholars over decades. May it be an example for others. > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > ________________________________________________ > > Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl > Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek > Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien > (Dept. of Indology) > > 37070 Goettingen, Germany > Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 > > gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de > > FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm > In English: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm > > GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm > > GRETIL e-library: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Mon Mar 9 17:46:36 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 18:46:36 +0100 Subject: AW: AW: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085303.23782.11036279130432821290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate > Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. > Best wishes > EF Dear Professor Franco, since you brought this up, may I ask you to give one example? Otherwise I would have to consider your remark a mere fabrication. With due respect R. Gr?nendahl From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Mon Mar 9 20:09:55 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 21:09:55 +0100 Subject: AW: AW: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085305.23782.9652725721421230600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl?s memory off the list. I am sure everybody had enough of this by now. Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > >> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate > >> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. > >> Best wishes > >> EF > > Dear Professor Franco, > > since you brought this up, may I ask you to give one example? > > Otherwise I would have to consider your remark a mere fabrication. > > > > With due respect > > R. Gr?nendahl > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From hellwig7 at GMX.DE Mon Mar 9 22:05:12 2009 From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 22:05:12 +0000 Subject: PDF dictionaries Message-ID: <161227085307.23782.8426839050520198467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list, PDF dictionaries of the Ramayana and the Bodhicaryavatara are available at www.sanskritreader.de/dictionaries/dictionaries.htm. Best, O. Hellwig From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Tue Mar 10 08:36:52 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 09 09:36:52 +0100 Subject: AW: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085309.23782.13005891205930002471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure > everybody had enough of this by now. Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. As I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement with Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why he would rather not discuss it in public. So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider Professor Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that is presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at least one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the "whenever"-pattern insinuated in his remark. Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: "I have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure everyone had enough of it." Reinhold Gr?nendahl ***************************************** On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate > Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. > Best wishes > EF From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Mar 10 12:49:01 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 09 12:49:01 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Advertising the job at Paris-3 In-Reply-To: <20090309221255.7D7AC7000082@mwinf2a24.orange.fr> Message-ID: <161227085311.23782.12820640394362207334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Nalini Balbir Date: 2009/3/9 Subject: Advertising the job at Paris-3 To: wujastyk at gmail.com Dear Dominik, Given the new rules, that a foreign scholar can apply directly to a job in France, it would perhaps be adequate to advertise the job at Paris-3 on INDOLOGY. Could you please do this for us? With thanks and best regards, Yours sincerely, Nalini. *Professor position at the University of Paris-3 Sorbonne Nouvelle *0751719L UNIVERSITE PARIS 3 (SORBONNE NOUVELLE) 856 46-1 PR Non 15 01/09/2009 03/03/2009 02/04/2009 "Histoire et traditions textuelles de l'Inde et de l'ASIE du Sud-Est" PARIS (Knowledge of French required) Method for applying "Les candidats doivent se connecter sur le site du Minist?re de l?enseignement sup?rieur et de la recherche : http://www.enseignementsup-recherche.gouv.fr, rubrique ? concours, emplois et carri?res ? puis ?galaxie? du 03 mars 2009 ? 10h00, heure de Paris, jusqu?au 02 avril 2009 16h00, heure de Paris. La composition du dossier est indiqu?e sur l?arr?t? du 15 septembre 2008 ? Journal Officiel du 23 septembre 2008 consultable ?galement sur l?application galaxie. *Les dossiers complets doivent ?tre adress?s aux ?tablissements par courrier postal avant le 02 avril 2009 avant minuit, le cachet de la poste faisant foi: Universit? Paris-3 Sorbonne Nouvelle, Service du Personnel enseignant, 17, rue de la Sorbonne, 75230 Paris Cedex 05". * * * -- PGP key:http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/pgp.html Fingerprint: 2323 94BE C35F B7E2 309F BA7C 97D3 1A77 91DA CAC0 From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Mar 11 18:56:13 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 09 14:56:13 -0400 Subject: Advertising the job at Paris-3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085314.23782.6372860035719523369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just for fun I tried to find the advertisement according to the instructions provided. It seems one needs a degree in computer science to access it. Best of luck to those who need a job! Stella Sandahl -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 10-Mar-09, at 8:49 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > *Professor position at the University of Paris-3 Sorbonne Nouvelle From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 12 16:10:13 2009 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 09 09:10:13 -0700 Subject: A pedantic correction (but it's still a good story) In-Reply-To: <20090305T184246Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085318.23782.16841305244535326479.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Cal Watkins and Byron Bender I now have a more authentic version of the story, as good as we are likely to get. It happened at Columbia University on the late 40's. The language was Russian, the student was Robert Austerlitz, the teacher was Jakobson, and what he said was "Try to understand!" Watkins did indeed take a class conducted in Russian from my father at a Linguistic Institute in Bloomington, Indiana, but at the time he did understand Russian. What is surprising is that Austerlitz, who was fluent in 13 languages, from Finnish to Gilyak, did not know Russian... As Jean-Luc Chevillard said: The more languages one knows, the better. Paul On Mar 5, 2009, at 3:42 PM, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Thanks, Paul. I'm virtually certain I heard it as Polish, which as > I was explaining to Bob Goldman, made the story even better. Maybe > it got transformed before it got to me, rather than by me. > > Allen > >>>> Paul Kiparsky 3/5/2009 6:35 PM >>> > >> >> There was another one I heard about Roman Jacobson. When he first >> came to the U.S., his English was insufficient for lecturing, so in >> his first class he said, "Does everyone here know Polish?" One shy >> student at the back timidly raised her hand saying she didn't. He >> leaned over the podium, spread out his hands, and said, "Vell, TRY." >> >> Si non e vero, e bien trovato. >> > > It was my father, Valentin Kiparsky, not Roman Jakobson. The > occasion was the 1952 Linguistic Institute at Bloomington, Indiana. > The language was Russian, not Polish. And the student was male. > > ...ben cambiato, anyway. > > Paul From fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU Thu Mar 12 16:41:45 2009 From: fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU (FRITS STAAL) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 09 09:41:45 -0700 Subject: IASS e-mail newsletter In-Reply-To: <20090312153529.sgmc58kbkk8kgcso@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227085320.23782.13155485316918891672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Brockinton, Could you please send me more information (by email or airmail to my below address) about the IAAS with which I lost contact long ago . 67/1 Ban Pong, Hang Dong Chiang Mai THAILAND 50230 with many thanks and best wishes, > Dear Colleagues, > > Earlier today I sent an e-mail message to all members of the > International Association of Sanskrit Studies announcing the > establishment of a new newsletter (to be distributed solely by e-mail) > and inviting contributions from members. If you are a member of the > IASS and have not received that message (there are some members for > whom we do not have e-mail addresses and others whose addresses are > out of date), please contact me so that I can include you on the > mailing list. If you want to renew your subscription or would like to > join the IASS as a personal member, please contact the Treasurer, > Professor Bruno Dagens. > > Yours > > John Brockington > > > Professor J. L. Brockington > Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies > Asian Studies > 7-8 Buccleuch Place > Edinburgh EH8 9LW > > > -- > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > Frits Staal http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal From J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK Thu Mar 12 15:35:29 2009 From: J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK (J L Brockington) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 09 15:35:29 +0000 Subject: IASS e-mail newsletter Message-ID: <161227085316.23782.8961290968879895592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Earlier today I sent an e-mail message to all members of the International Association of Sanskrit Studies announcing the establishment of a new newsletter (to be distributed solely by e-mail) and inviting contributions from members. If you are a member of the IASS and have not received that message (there are some members for whom we do not have e-mail addresses and others whose addresses are out of date), please contact me so that I can include you on the mailing list. If you want to renew your subscription or would like to join the IASS as a personal member, please contact the Treasurer, Professor Bruno Dagens. Yours John Brockington Professor J. L. Brockington Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies Asian Studies 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From H.T.Bakker at RUG.NL Fri Mar 13 12:45:13 2009 From: H.T.Bakker at RUG.NL (Hans T Bakker) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 09 13:45:13 +0100 Subject: new publication (Arlo Griffiths) Message-ID: <161227085323.23782.3203335388730019776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mitraani, It is my pleasure to announce that, Arlo Griffiths, /The Paipaladasamhita of the Atharvaveda, Kandas 6 and 7. A new Edition with Translation and Commentary/, has come out. The book has appeared as volume 22 of the /Groningen Oriental Studies. /ISBN: 978-906980-777-5. The book is published by Egbert Forsten, Groningen and may be ordered through the following website: http://www.forsten.nl/ -- Prof Dr Hans T. Bakker Institute of Indian Studies University of Groningen Oude Boteringestraat 23 9712 GC Groningen the Netherlands tel: +31.(0)50.363.5819 fax: +31.(0)50.363.7263 www.rug.nl/india From conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Mar 13 22:56:04 2009 From: conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Frank Conlon) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 09 15:56:04 -0700 Subject: H-ASIA: Carol Goldberg Salomon (1948-2009) Message-ID: <161227085330.23782.7394904309433336624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H-ASIA March 13, 2009 Carol Goldberg Salomon (July 28, 1948-March 13, 2009) ************************************************************************ >?From Frank Conlon It is my very sad duty to report the death this morning, March 13, 2009, of Carol Goldberg Salomon of the Department of Asian Languages and Literature of the University of Washington. Carol had been injured severely in a bicycle-automobile collision on March 11. She is survived by her husband, Professor Richard Salomon, also of the University of Washington and their son Jesse. A private funeral service is planned. Dr. Salomon was a world-renowned specialist in the language, literature, and culture of Bengal. At the time of her death she held the position of Senior Lecturer in Bengali. Carol Salomon was a wonderful colleague who supported her students and colleagues with intellectual and emotional support. A graduate of City College of New York (1970), she completed her PhD at the University of Pennsylvania in Bengali Language and Literature in 1983. Her special emphasis had been on the cultural synthesis of Bangla culture as represented in the traditions of the Bauls. Among her publications were: Studies in South Asian Devotional Literature, Language, and Culture , eds. Alan Entwistle and Carol Salomon with Heidi Pauwels and Michael Shapiro. New Delhi: Manohar, 1999. "The Bauls" in Religions in India in Practice , ed. Donald S. Lopez, Jr. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1995, pp. 187-208. "The Cosmogonic Riddles of Lalan Fakir," in Gender, Genre and Power in South Asian Expressive Traditions , ed. Arjun Appadurai, Frank Korom, and Margaret Mills. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1991, pp. 267-304. At the time of her passing she was working on a "City of Mirrors: An Edition and Annotated Translation of Selected Songs by Lalan Fakir" The sudden and unexpected loss of this brilliant colleague has left a sense of loss more readily acknowledged than described. Frank Frank F. Conlon Professor Emeritus University of Washington Co-editor, H-ASIA ****************************************************************** To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: For holidays or short absences send post to: with message: SET H-ASIA NOMAIL Upon return, send post with message SET H-ASIA MAIL H-ASIA WEB HOMEPAGE URL: http://h-net.msu.edu/~asia/ From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Fri Mar 13 17:03:34 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 09 18:03:34 +0100 Subject: Publications available Message-ID: <161227085325.23782.3616809368443078047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Seishi Karashima has asked me to forward the information that many of the publications of the International Research Institute for Advanced Budddhology at Soka University are available online: http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/BLSF/index_BLSF.html http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/BPPB/index_BPPB.html http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/ARIRIAB/index_ARIRIAB.html The first URL refers to the volume of Sanskrit manuscripts in the British Library, the second to the Institute's monograph series, the third to its annual journal. J Silk -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Fri Mar 13 22:49:40 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 09 18:49:40 -0400 Subject: more good stories In-Reply-To: <577F54A7-D5E1-4066-9855-868DF503385E@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <161227085327.23782.13146960625258812841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, Regarding the good stories that have been told recently about great scholars like R. Jakobson, V. Kiparsky, R. Austerlitz and Cal Watikins, I have an anecdote that may amuse some list members. Some ten years ago I found myself giving a series of talks on Sanskrit and Indian Culture sponsored by the New Hampshire Humanities Council. By chance, one of the attendees at these talks was the granddaughter of Charles Lanman, who faithfully attended, along with her husband, the entire series of nine weekly talks. I was struck by the fact that Lanman's granddaughter, herself then perhaps in her 70's, was very pleased to know that I had been introduced to Sanskrit literature by means of her grandfather's Sanskrit Reader, but also by the fact that she herself had not seen a copy of it since childhood. Since I had several copies of Lanman's Reader in hand [I used to buy up all copies that used to appear in the Berkeley bookstores when I studied there], I gave her one as a gift. This led to an extensive discussion of Lanman's impact on early American Indology, which his granddaughter was eager to learn about. Since I was planning to give a paper at the AOS conference in Baltimore in that year, I promised to solicit stories of Lanman's career at Harvard for her. As it turns out, Cal Watkins was a great source of Harvard folklore regarding Lanman and his [literally] subterranean contacts with Henry Clarke Warren, etc., which delighted Lanman's granddaughter and her family in general [as she told me]. The point is that I think that someone should sit down with Cal Watkins and get him to record all of the Sanskritist and IE folklore that he has privy to. It would greatly enlighten us about the formative period of American Indology. Best wishes, George Thompson Paul Kiparsky wrote: > Thanks to Cal Watkins and Byron Bender I now have a more authentic > version of the story, as good as we are likely to get. It happened > at Columbia University on the late 40's. The language was Russian, > the student was Robert Austerlitz, the teacher was Jakobson, and what > he said was "Try to understand!" > Watkins did indeed take a class conducted in Russian from my father > at a Linguistic Institute in Bloomington, Indiana, but at the time he > did understand Russian. > > What is surprising is that Austerlitz, who was fluent in 13 > languages, from Finnish to Gilyak, did not know Russian... > > As Jean-Luc Chevillard said: The more languages one knows, the better. > > Paul > From rmanring at INDIANA.EDU Sat Mar 14 02:22:51 2009 From: rmanring at INDIANA.EDU (Manring, Rebecca) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 09 22:22:51 -0400 Subject: H-ASIA: Carol Goldberg Salomon (1948-2009) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085332.23782.6501515516064985425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just heard this horrible, unbelievable news here in Albuquerque at the AOS reception. Carol was my adiguru. She taught me Bengali for four years, privately, for the ridiculous sum of $8/hour, back in the eighties. But it was enough to qualify me for an AIIS advanced language fellowship, and the rest as they say is history. I have very fond memories of riding my bike over to the Salomon's house in Seattle three nights a week for so long, dodging Jesse and Rich playing football in the living room, and heading for her study to work for an hour. Like most of us I was blessed with wonderful teachers at every turn, but she was the first, without whom I would probably not have proceeded in the directions I eventually did. This is a tremendous loss for all of us; Carol taught an awful lot of us Bangla. And my thoughts and prayers are with Richard and Jesse in this horrible time. Rebecca J. Manring Associate Professor India Studies and Religious Studies Indiana University-Bloomington ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Frank Conlon [conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU] Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 6:56 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: H-ASIA: Carol Goldberg Salomon (1948-2009) H-ASIA March 13, 2009 Carol Goldberg Salomon (July 28, 1948-March 13, 2009) ************************************************************************ >?From Frank Conlon It is my very sad duty to report the death this morning, March 13, 2009, of Carol Goldberg Salomon of the Department of Asian Languages and Literature of the University of Washington. Carol had been injured severely in a bicycle-automobile collision on March 11. She is survived by her husband, Professor Richard Salomon, also of the University of Washington and their son Jesse. A private funeral service is planned. Dr. Salomon was a world-renowned specialist in the language, literature, and culture of Bengal. At the time of her death she held the position of Senior Lecturer in Bengali. Carol Salomon was a wonderful colleague who supported her students and colleagues with intellectual and emotional support. A graduate of City College of New York (1970), she completed her PhD at the University of Pennsylvania in Bengali Language and Literature in 1983. Her special emphasis had been on the cultural synthesis of Bangla culture as represented in the traditions of the Bauls. Among her publications were: Studies in South Asian Devotional Literature, Language, and Culture , eds. Alan Entwistle and Carol Salomon with Heidi Pauwels and Michael Shapiro. New Delhi: Manohar, 1999. "The Bauls" in Religions in India in Practice , ed. Donald S. Lopez, Jr. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1995, pp. 187-208. "The Cosmogonic Riddles of Lalan Fakir," in Gender, Genre and Power in South Asian Expressive Traditions , ed. Arjun Appadurai, Frank Korom, and Margaret Mills. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1991, pp. 267-304. At the time of her passing she was working on a "City of Mirrors: An Edition and Annotated Translation of Selected Songs by Lalan Fakir" The sudden and unexpected loss of this brilliant colleague has left a sense of loss more readily acknowledged than described. Frank Frank F. Conlon Professor Emeritus University of Washington Co-editor, H-ASIA ****************************************************************** To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: For holidays or short absences send post to: with message: SET H-ASIA NOMAIL Upon return, send post with message SET H-ASIA MAIL H-ASIA WEB HOMEPAGE URL: http://h-net.msu.edu/~asia/ From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Sat Mar 14 22:47:33 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 09 23:47:33 +0100 Subject: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085336.23782.5888875033536823827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I guess I was wrong; unfortunately, not everybody had enough of this. So here we go for one more round, hopefully the last. I apologize for responding a bit late; I was busy during the last few days. Dr. Gruenendahl is right. Two times are not enough to establish a pattern. Perhaps next time he will side with me against a point made by Prof. Slaje, but I somehow doubt it. What I object to, of course, is not the fact that he takes sides in a discussion, but to his aggressive manner, malicious distortion of what I said, his use of ad hominem arguments, and cheap psychological analysis of the type ?Franco writes because he wants to draw attention to himself, undeserved attention.? In the same vein I could say, e.g., ?Gruenendahl?s offensiveness is only due to some personal frustration, deserved frustration.? However, I do not want to regress to Kindergarten level. Some of you have voiced the concern that the list has become a place for personal and private battles. I can assure you that there was absolutely nothing personal in my remark about the Glasenapp Foundation. Furthermore, Dr. Gruenendahl and I do not know each other; at least I do not remember ever meeting him. Further, I do not think that Dr. Gruenendahl *purposefully* distorts what I said, but that his vision is blurred by some agenda. The same kind of distortion, at times even spiteful criticism he displays in some of his published work, notably in his attempt to exonerate German Indology from the charge of having been affiliated with National Socialism. There was a discussion about this last year on the list. With best wishes, Eli Franco Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > >> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure > >> everybody had enough of this by now. > > > > Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. > > I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. As > I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so > much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his > forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement with > Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its > decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why he > would rather not discuss it in public. > > So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider Professor > Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that is > presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal > interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at least > one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the "whenever"-pattern > insinuated in his remark. > > Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: "I > have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure > everyone had enough of it." > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > ***************************************** > > On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > >> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate > >> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. > >> Best wishes > >> EF > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Sun Mar 15 09:10:06 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 09 10:10:06 +0100 Subject: AW: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085339.23782.5619458124750216257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since Professor Franco indicated that he was too busy for proving his earlier claims it would indeed be too much to ask him to substantiate his latest charges. [A pedantic correction: We met in Berlin on one or two occasions, and I remember them as rather pleasant.] Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Gesendet: Sa 14.03.2009 23:47 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers I guess I was wrong; unfortunately, not everybody had enough of this. So here we go for one more round, hopefully the last. I apologize for responding a bit late; I was busy during the last few days. Dr. Gruenendahl is right. Two times are not enough to establish a pattern. Perhaps next time he will side with me against a point made by Prof. Slaje, but I somehow doubt it. What I object to, of course, is not the fact that he takes sides in a discussion, but to his aggressive manner, malicious distortion of what I said, his use of ad hominem arguments, and cheap psychological analysis of the type ?Franco writes because he wants to draw attention to himself, undeserved attention.? In the same vein I could say, e.g., ?Gruenendahl?s offensiveness is only due to some personal frustration, deserved frustration.? However, I do not want to regress to Kindergarten level. Some of you have voiced the concern that the list has become a place for personal and private battles. I can assure you that there was absolutely nothing personal in my remark about the Glasenapp Foundation. Furthermore, Dr. Gruenendahl and I do not know each other; at least I do not remember ever meeting him. Further, I do not think that Dr. Gruenendahl *purposefully* distorts what I said, but that his vision is blurred by some agenda. The same kind of distortion, at times even spiteful criticism he displays in some of his published work, notably in his attempt to exonerate German Indology from the charge of having been affiliated with National Socialism. There was a discussion about this last year on the list. With best wishes, Eli Franco Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > >> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure > >> everybody had enough of this by now. > > > > Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. > > I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. As > I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so > much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his > forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement with > Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its > decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why he > would rather not discuss it in public. > > So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider Professor > Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that is > presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal > interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at least > one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the "whenever"-pattern > insinuated in his remark. > > Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: "I > have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure > everyone had enough of it." > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > ***************************************** > > On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > >> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate > >> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. > >> Best wishes > >> EF > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Mar 16 10:01:09 2009 From: fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU (FRITS STAAL) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 03:01:09 -0700 Subject: time to change the tune In-Reply-To: <20090316031204.BUC75839@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085352.23782.5666501096723688397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I APPLAUD! > I find the use of the Indology list > by our colleagues in Germany to be > tiresome in the extreme and not > to accord very well with the purposes > for which Indology was established. > > If this continues much longer, I, for > one, will withdraw my name from the subscription list. > > Perhaps a separate listserve dedicated to > settling scores in Germany should be contemplated, > so that those interested in this will have > their own playpen. > > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > Frits Staal http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 16 08:12:04 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 03:12:04 -0500 Subject: time to change the tune Message-ID: <161227085348.23782.10623568738413940486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I find the use of the Indology list by our colleagues in Germany to be tiresome in the extreme and not to accord very well with the purposes for which Indology was established. If this continues much longer, I, for one, will withdraw my name from the subscription list. Perhaps a separate listserve dedicated to settling scores in Germany should be contemplated, so that those interested in this will have their own playpen. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Mon Mar 16 02:50:56 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 03:50:56 +0100 Subject: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085342.23782.3981491290964230792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > Since Professor Franco indicated that he was too busy for proving his earlier > claims it would indeed be too much to ask him to substantiate his latest > charges. Even this very statement is a distortion or ?fabrication.? I never said or indicated that I am too busy to prove my claims. Dr. Gruenendahl asked for one example (?may I ask you to give one example??) and I gave him one example. He may not like the example, he may think that the example is no good, but he cannot (or should not) claim that I did not take the time to write to him. Further, I tried to take this discussion off the list, honestly thinking that ?everybody had enough of this.? But Gruenendahl knows better. The real reason why I do not want to discuss it on the list, he claims, is that I do not want to discuss the example in public (?I understand that this is the reason why he would rather not discuss it in public.?). Basically he accuses me of being dishonest. But this accusation is plainly absurd. We already discussed this example in public, and Gruenendahl knows it because he himself participated in the discussion. If anyone is interested, they can find the discussion in the archive of the German Indologie discussion group. Evidence for ad hominem argument and cheap psychological analysis was already given in the last message, but if it needs to be ?proved?, I quote: ?I cannot see who expects to gain from this, except in terms of attention - undeserved attention, in my view.? It is clear from the context that this statement refers to me. The most significant point, however, which should have a broader appeal, is Dr. Gruenendahl?s attempt to exonerate German Indology from its affiliation with National Socialism. I think the issue is important and want to discuss it in some detail, without, however, being exhaustive. The publication in question is Gruenendahl?s contribution to Gustav Roth?s Felicitation Volume, entitled ?Von der Indologie zum V?lkermord,? In U. H?sken, P. Kieffer-P?lz and A. Peters [eds.], Jaina-Itih?sa-Ratna. Festschrift f?r Gustav Roth zum 90. Geburtstag. Marburg 2006, pp. 209-236. Already when I first read it, I was dismayed not only by Gruenendahl?s occasionally spiteful criticism of Sheldon Pollock, but also by the way Gruenendahl misunderstands and misrepresents his sources, especially in his attempt to exonerate Frauwallner from the charge, made by Pollock, of having been affiliated with National Socialist ideology. Gruenendahl (p. 217) argues (and this is typical for his emotional style) that one would thoroughly misunderstand Pollock?s intentions if one would drag them down to the level of facts, which are a negligible quantity in the age of ?polyvalent? discourse. He states that Pollock does not use facts to determine reality, but resorts to strategic choices and interpretations of the materials to draw maximum attention to himself (!). Had I tried, I could not have found a better way to describe Gruenendahl?s own approach to the topic. I will illustrate the above with ?facts.? But let me first note Gruenendahl?s remarkable lack of sensitivity to the historical and political context. A racist or racialist statement made in Germany in 1939 or 1942 cannot be divorced from this context, and to argue, as Gruenendahl does (e.g., p. 232 and passim), that similar statements were already made by racists of previous generations (such as Gobineau, Renan, etc.) and that it is therefore not evident that these ideas (as expressed e.g., by Frauwallner in 1944) are associated with National Socialist ideology, is not only na?ve, but preposterous. Here are a few examples of how Gruenendahl twists his source material. Frauwallner (in 1944) approvingly quotes von Soden to the effect that only the Indo-Europeans, which are determined by the Nordic race, are capable of creating science properly speaking and states that ?on the basis of our investigations up to now we cannot but agree with this statement? (? ?da? Wis?sen?schaft im strengen Sinn des Wortes etwas ist, das nur von den von der nordischen Rasse bestimmten Indogermanen geschaffen werden konnte? (S. 556). Wir k?nnen dieser Behauptung auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen nur beistimmen.?). Gruenendahl (p. 232) interprets this statement to mean that Frauwallner at least signalized some reserve in his endorsement of von Soden?s statement (?? einen Vorbehalt zumindest angedeutet?). This interpretation of a stereotypical expression (?auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen?) is simply tendentious and farfetched. There is certainly nothing in this context to support it. Frauwallner?s confident perception of himself as a true pioneer of solid philological research into the history of Indian philosophy is misinterpreted by Gruenendahl (p. 231) to mean that Frauwallner stated that the relevant direction of Indological research (i.e., research that is programmatically determined by the aspect of race) was in its beginning?an unsuccessful attempt by Gruenendahl to show, on the alleged authority of Frauwallner himself, that Indologists up to this time had not yet followed this line of research. Furthermore, in his polemical zeal Gruenendahl misre?presents Frauwallner?s hypothesis of two distinct, racially conditioned historical phases of Indian philosophy and inverts Frauwallner?s judgement about the second period: he presents Frauwallner?s reference to the peak (occurring in the first half of the second millennium) of the development of Indian philosophy in its *second*, clearly inferior phase as the view that ?the mingling of the two races? was fruitful and even led to a new peak of its own kind of Indian philosophy (p. 229)! Gruenendahl seems to ignore that Frauwallner repeated his racist interpretation of Indian philosophy even after the war (and without any reservations) in his ?History of Indian Philosophy,? Vol. I, pp. 26-27. In this context, Frauwallner?s usage of the typical Nazi term ?Volksk?rper? (nation?s body) has to be noted. As is well known, the National Socialists thought of the German nation as a body to be kept healthy, clean and free from disease, obnoxious influences and parasites (such as minorities belonging to so-called inferior races). The same racist historical interpretation is repeated as late as 1959 in Frauwallner?s article ?Indische Philosophie.? This time at least he adds that a definitive statement about this, i.e., the racial background of the two developmental phases of Indian philosophy, seems ?premature? (verfr?ht). That Frauwallner was an anti-Semite is certainly not an unfounded inference by Pollock (as Gruenendahl claims on p. 233), but a well attested fact. Even though there are no direct anti-Semitic statements in Frauwallner?s writings, there are other sources that testify clearly to his anti-Semitism well after WW II (cf., for instance, the sources utilized by Jakob Stuchlik?s dissertation submitted to the University of Vienna in 2005 and his forthcoming monograph on the background of Frauwallner?s ?Aryan hypothesis? to be published by the Austrian Academy of Sciences). It is arbitrary and unacceptable to form a judgement on the basis of published Indological studies alone. Gruenendahl points out some differences between Frauwallner?s statements and those of Chamberlain (p. 228) and the agreement of the former with Gobineau?s positions (p. 229), but fails to indicate Frauwallner?s more immediate sources of inspiration. One such source is the renowned Vedic and Bud?dhist scholar Hermann Oldenberg, whom Frauwallner admired; some of the former?s statements seem to have been of direct inspiration to him. I will quote from this source below because I believe that it is not well known and interesting reading (Die Literatur des alten Indien, pp. 132-133). More details on the relationship between Frauwallner?s work on the history of Indian philosophy and his National Socialist ideology are available in a preface by Karin Preisendanz and myself to a forthcoming reprint of Frauwallner?s Philosophie des Buddhismus. As for Gruenendahl?s confident statement that there is evidently no ideological consensus between Walther W?st and Ludwig Alsdorf (p. 213), and his denial that racist ideology did not at all affect Alsdorf?s scholarly work (p. 225), compare the first chapter of Alsdorf?s ?Indien? in the Weltpolitische B?cherei (supervised by Alfred Rosenberg himself), second edition, Deutscher Verlag Berlin, 1942, especially pp. 12-13. To be sure, Pollock?s statements and hypotheses are at times daring and sweeping, but they constitute the beginning of the exploration of this phase of the history of our discipline, all the more so as, more than sixty years after WWII, no German Indologist has attempted to undertake the task of coming to terms with Indology during this dark period of German history. In this sense, Gruenendahl?s announced monograph will be very welcome indeed. One only hopes that it will be less biased than his paper referred to above. With best wishes, Eli Franco P.S. For Prof. Slaje?s eloquent praise of Gruenendahl?s work and method, cf. his message to the list dated January 9, 2007. H. Oldenberg, Die Literatur des alten Indien, 2nd ed., Stuttgart 1923, pp. 132-133: ?Above all there were probably influences [by the indi?genous people of India] that worked in a very pro?found way which we can only surmise: through the gradually progressing transformation of the blood, which means a transformation of the Soul, through the constant influx of new quantities of the blood of savages and semi-savages into the veins of those who still called themselves Aryans. Zeus and Apollo continued to rule as long as there were Greek gods because the Greek nation remained the same. Indra and Agni had to leave the field to other gods because the Indian nation had become a different one. For these minds, in which an inscrutable jumble of anta?gonistic powers, intertwined with each other, unleashed at each other, was at work, the Vedic gods were much too guile?lessly simple; their being was all too easily exhausted. They had come from the North: now tropical gods were needed. These were hardly of fixed shapes any longer; they were whole tangles of shapes, bodies from which oozed heads upon heads, arms upon arms, multi?tudes of hands holding multitudes of attributes, clubs and lotus flowers: voluptuous, sombre and grandiose poetry every?where, exuberance and blurred shapelessness: a terrible disaster for the fine arts? (?Vor allem werden jene Ein?fl?sse (scil. der Urbewohner Indiens) in einer tiefsten Weise gewirkt haben, die wir nur ahnen k?nnen: durch die allm?hlich fortschreitende Wandlung des Blutes, die eine Wandlung der Seele bedeutet, durch das be?st?ndige Ein?str?men neuer Mengen von Wilden- und Halb?wil?den?blut in die Adern derer, die sich noch immer Arier nann?ten. Zeus und Apollon haben ihre Herrschaft be?halten, solange es griechische G?tter gab, denn das Grie?chenvolk blieb dasselbe. Indra und Agni mussten andern G?ttern das Feld r?umen, denn das indische Volk war ein andres ge?worden. F?r diese Geister, in denen un?er?gr?ndliche Mischungen widerstreitender Kr?fte, mit?einander ver?schlungen, gegeneinander entfesselt, ihr Spiel trieben, waren die Vedag?tter allzu kindlich einfach; gar zu leicht war ihr Wesen ausgesch?pft. Sie waren von Norden ge?kommen: jetzt brauchte man tropische G?tter. Es waren kaum mehr feste Gestalten; es waren ganze Gestal?ten?kn?uel, K?rper, aus denen K?pfe ?ber K?pfe, Arme ?ber Arme hervor?quollen, Mengen von H?nden, die Mengen von Attributen, Keulen und Lotusblumen halten: ?berall ?ppige und d?stere, grandiose Poesie, ?berf?lle und ver?schwommene Formlosigkeit: Ein b?ses Verh?ngnis f?r die bildende Kunst.?) > [A pedantic correction: We met in Berlin on one or two occasions, and I > remember them as rather pleasant.] > > > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > > ________________________________ > > Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE > Gesendet: Sa 14.03.2009 23:47 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers > > > > I guess I was wrong; unfortunately, not everybody had enough of this. > So here we go for one more round, hopefully the last. I apologize for > responding a bit late; I was busy during the last few days. > > Dr. Gruenendahl is right. Two times are not enough to establish a > pattern. Perhaps next time he will side with me against a point made > by Prof. Slaje, but I somehow doubt it. > > What I object to, of course, is not the fact that he takes sides in a > discussion, but to his aggressive manner, malicious distortion of what > I said, his use of ad hominem arguments, and cheap psychological > analysis of the type ?Franco writes because he wants to draw attention > to himself, undeserved attention.? In the same vein I could say, e.g., > ?Gruenendahl?s offensiveness is only due to some personal frustration, > deserved frustration.? However, I do not want to regress to > Kindergarten level. > > Some of you have voiced the concern that the list has become a place > for personal and private battles. I can assure you that there was > absolutely nothing personal in my remark about the Glasenapp > Foundation. Furthermore, Dr. Gruenendahl and I do not know each other; > at least I do not remember ever meeting him. > > Further, I do not think that Dr. Gruenendahl *purposefully* distorts > what I said, but that his vision is blurred by some agenda. The same > kind of distortion, at times even spiteful criticism he displays in > some of his published work, notably in his attempt to exonerate German > Indology from the charge of having been affiliated with National > Socialism. There was a discussion about this last year on the list. > > With best wishes, > Eli Franco > > Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure >> >>> everybody had enough of this by now. >> >> >> >> Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. >> >> I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. > As >> I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so >> much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his >> forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement > with >> Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its >> decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why he >> would rather not discuss it in public. >> >> So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider Professor >> Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that is >> presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal >> interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at > least >> one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the > "whenever"-pattern >> insinuated in his remark. >> >> Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: > "I >> have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure >> everyone had enough of it." >> >> Reinhold Gr?nendahl >> >> ***************************************** >> >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate >> >>> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. >> >>> Best wishes >> >>> EF >> >> >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Mar 16 10:15:11 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 06:15:11 -0400 Subject: time to change the tune In-Reply-To: <20090316031204.BUC75839@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085355.23782.17300319896643800805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree! alaM vipriyeNa vivAdena! -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 16-Mar-09, at 4:12 AM, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > I find the use of the Indology list > by our colleagues in Germany to be > tiresome in the extreme and not > to accord very well with the purposes > for which Indology was established. > > If this continues much longer, I, for > one, will withdraw my name from the subscription list. > > Perhaps a separate listserve dedicated to > settling scores in Germany should be contemplated, > so that those interested in this will have > their own playpen. > > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Mar 16 10:31:51 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 06:31:51 -0400 Subject: MBh. 2.54.22 Message-ID: <161227085358.23782.17017061433339489150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> MBh. 22.54.22 says: azvAMs tittiri-kalmASAn gandharvAn ... dadau CitrarathaH... It seems to be that tittiri, kalmASa and gandharva could refer to different breeds/kinds of horses. Renou understood it that way (Anthologie sanscrite), but he gives no reference to support this. Nakula's AzvaZAstra (Thanjavur Sarasvati Mahal Series No. 56) has no reference to breeds of horses either as far as I can discover. So where can one find a clarification? Many thanks! Stella Sandahl -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Tel. (416) 978-4295 Fax. (416) 978-5711 From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Mar 16 03:18:34 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 08:48:34 +0530 Subject: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) Message-ID: <161227085345.23782.637631609909866336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps, I read somewhere that H.Oldenberg was Jew. It has remained a mystery to me that he could still be?an Aryanist in the bad sense of the term? The forces at play in pre-Nazi Europe and the odd equations reached thereby are of course not well-known?to me. Or the information was incorrect? DB --- On Mon, 16/3/09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Subject: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 16 March, 2009, 8:20 AM -----Inline Attachment Follows----- Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > Since Professor Franco indicated that he was too busy for proving his earlier > claims it would indeed be too much to ask him to substantiate his latest > charges. Even this very statement is a distortion or ?fabrication.? I never said or indicated that I am too busy to prove my claims. Dr. Gruenendahl asked for one example (?may I ask you to give one example??) and I gave him one example. He may not like the example, he may think that the example is no good, but he cannot (or should not) claim that I did not take the time to write to him. Further, I tried to take this discussion off the list, honestly thinking that ?everybody had enough of this.? But Gruenendahl knows better. The real reason why I do not want to discuss it on the list, he claims, is that I do not want to discuss the example in public (?I understand that this is the reason why he would rather not discuss it in public.?). Basically he accuses me of being dishonest. But this accusation is plainly absurd. We already discussed this example in public, and Gruenendahl knows it because he himself participated in the discussion. If anyone is interested, they can find the discussion in the archive of the German Indologie discussion group. Evidence for ad hominem argument and cheap psychological analysis was already given in the last message, but if it needs to be ?proved?, I quote: ?I cannot see who expects to gain from this, except in terms of attention - undeserved attention, in my view.?? It is clear from the context that this statement refers to me. The most? significant point, however, which should have a broader appeal, is Dr. Gruenendahl?s attempt to exonerate German Indology from its affiliation with National Socialism. I think the issue is important and want to discuss it in some detail, without, however, being exhaustive. The publication in question is Gruenendahl?s contribution to Gustav Roth?s Felicitation Volume, entitled ?Von der Indologie zum V?lkermord,? In U. H?sken, P. Kieffer-P?lz and A. Peters [eds.], Jaina-Itih?sa-Ratna. Festschrift f?r Gustav Roth zum 90. Geburtstag. Marburg 2006, pp. 209-236. Already when I first read it, I was dismayed not only by Gruenendahl?s occasionally spiteful criticism of Sheldon Pollock, but also by the way Gruenendahl misunderstands and misrepresents his sources, especially in his attempt to exonerate Frauwallner from the charge, made by Pollock, of having been affiliated with National Socialist ideology. Gruenendahl (p. 217) argues (and this is typical for his emotional style) that one would thoroughly misunderstand Pollock?s intentions if one would drag them down to the level of facts, which are a negligible quantity in the age of ?polyvalent? discourse. He states that Pollock does not use facts to determine reality, but resorts to strategic choices and interpretations of the materials to draw maximum attention to himself (!). Had I tried, I could not have found a better way to describe Gruenendahl?s own approach to the topic. I will illustrate the above with ?facts.? But let me first note Gruenendahl?s remarkable lack of sensitivity to the historical and political context. A racist or racialist statement made in Germany in 1939 or 1942 cannot be divorced from this context, and to argue, as Gruenendahl does (e.g., p. 232 and passim), that similar statements were already made by racists of previous generations (such as Gobineau, Renan, etc.) and that it is therefore not evident that these ideas (as expressed e.g., by Frauwallner in 1944) are associated with National Socialist ideology, is not only na?ve, but preposterous. Here are a few examples of how Gruenendahl twists his source material. Frauwallner (in 1944) approvingly quotes von Soden to the effect that only the Indo-Europeans, which are determined by the Nordic race, are capable of creating science properly speaking and states that ?on the basis of our investigations up to now we cannot but agree with this statement? (? ?da? Wis?sen?schaft im strengen Sinn des Wortes etwas ist, das nur von den von der nordischen Rasse bestimmten Indogermanen geschaffen werden konnte? (S. 556). Wir k?nnen dieser Behauptung auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen nur beistimmen.?). Gruenendahl (p. 232) interprets this statement to mean that Frauwallner at least signalized some reserve in his endorsement of von Soden?s statement (?? einen Vorbehalt zumindest angedeutet?). This interpretation of a stereotypical expression (?auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen?) is simply tendentious and farfetched. There is certainly nothing in this context to support it. Frauwallner?s confident perception of himself as a true pioneer of solid philological research into the history of Indian philosophy is misinterpreted by Gruenendahl (p. 231) to mean that Frauwallner stated that the relevant direction of Indological research (i.e., research that is programmatically determined by the aspect of race) was in its beginning?an unsuccessful attempt by Gruenendahl to show, on the alleged authority of Frauwallner himself, that Indologists up to this time had not yet followed this line of research. Furthermore, in his polemical zeal Gruenendahl misre?presents Frauwallner?s hypothesis of two distinct, racially conditioned historical phases of Indian philosophy and inverts Frauwallner?s judgement about the second period: he presents Frauwallner?s reference to the peak (occurring in the first half of the second millennium) of the development of Indian philosophy in its *second*, clearly inferior phase as the view that ?the mingling of the two races? was fruitful and even led to a new peak of its own kind of Indian philosophy (p. 229)! Gruenendahl seems to ignore that Frauwallner repeated his racist interpretation of Indian philosophy even after the war (and without any reservations) in his ?History of Indian Philosophy,? Vol. I, pp. 26-27. In this context, Frauwallner?s usage of the typical Nazi term ?Volksk?rper? (nation?s body) has to be noted. As is well known, the National Socialists thought of the German nation as a body to be kept healthy, clean and free from disease, obnoxious influences and parasites (such as minorities belonging to so-called inferior races). The same racist historical interpretation is repeated as late as 1959 in Frauwallner?s article ?Indische Philosophie.? This time at least he adds that a definitive statement about this, i.e., the racial background of the two developmental phases of Indian philosophy, seems ?premature? (verfr?ht). That Frauwallner was an anti-Semite is certainly not an unfounded inference by Pollock (as Gruenendahl claims on p. 233), but a well attested fact. Even though there are no direct anti-Semitic statements in Frauwallner?s writings, there are other sources that testify clearly to his anti-Semitism well after WW II (cf., for instance, the sources utilized by Jakob Stuchlik?s dissertation submitted to the University of Vienna in 2005 and his forthcoming monograph on the background of Frauwallner?s ?Aryan hypothesis? to be published by the Austrian Academy of Sciences). It is arbitrary and unacceptable to form a judgement on the basis of published Indological studies alone. Gruenendahl points out some differences between Frauwallner?s statements and those of Chamberlain (p. 228) and the agreement of the former with Gobineau?s positions (p. 229), but fails to indicate Frauwallner?s more immediate sources of inspiration. One such source is the renowned Vedic and Bud?dhist scholar Hermann Oldenberg, whom Frauwallner admired; some of the former?s statements seem to have been of direct inspiration to him. I will quote from this source below because I believe that it is not well known and interesting reading (Die Literatur des alten Indien, pp. 132-133). More details on the relationship between Frauwallner?s work on the history of Indian philosophy and his National Socialist ideology are available in a preface by Karin Preisendanz and myself to a forthcoming reprint of Frauwallner?s Philosophie des Buddhismus. As for Gruenendahl?s confident statement that there is evidently no ideological consensus between Walther W?st and Ludwig Alsdorf (p. 213), and his denial that racist ideology did not at all affect Alsdorf?s scholarly work (p. 225), compare the first chapter of Alsdorf?s ?Indien? in the Weltpolitische B?cherei (supervised by Alfred Rosenberg himself), second edition, Deutscher Verlag Berlin, 1942, especially pp. 12-13. To be sure, Pollock?s statements and hypotheses are at times daring and sweeping, but they constitute the beginning of the exploration of this phase of the history of our discipline, all the more so as, more than sixty years after WWII, no German Indologist has attempted to undertake the task of coming to terms with Indology during this dark period of German history. In this sense, Gruenendahl?s announced monograph will be very welcome indeed. One only hopes that it will be less biased than his paper referred to above. With best wishes, Eli Franco P.S. For Prof.? Slaje?s eloquent praise of Gruenendahl?s work and method, cf. his message to the list dated January 9, 2007. H. Oldenberg, Die Literatur des alten Indien, 2nd ed., Stuttgart 1923, pp. 132-133: ?Above all there were probably influences [by the indi?genous people of India] that worked in a very pro?found way which we can only surmise: through the gradually progressing transformation of the blood, which means a transformation of the Soul, through the constant influx of new quantities of the blood of savages and semi-savages into the veins of those who still called themselves Aryans. Zeus and Apollo continued to rule as long as there were Greek gods because the Greek nation remained the same. Indra and Agni had to leave the field to other gods because the Indian nation had become a different one. For these minds, in which an inscrutable jumble of anta?gonistic powers, intertwined with each other, unleashed at each other, was at work, the Vedic gods were much too guile?lessly simple; their being was all too easily exhausted. They had come from the North: now tropical gods were needed. These were hardly of fixed shapes any longer; they were whole tangles of shapes, bodies from which oozed heads upon heads, arms upon arms, multi?tudes of hands holding multitudes of attributes, clubs and lotus flowers: voluptuous, sombre and grandiose poetry every?where, exuberance and blurred shapelessness: a terrible disaster for the fine arts? (?Vor allem werden jene Ein?fl?sse (scil. der Urbewohner Indiens) in einer tiefsten Weise gewirkt haben, die wir nur ahnen k?nnen: durch die allm?hlich fortschreitende Wandlung des Blutes, die eine Wandlung der Seele bedeutet, durch das be?st?ndige Ein?str?men neuer Mengen von Wilden- und Halb?wil?den?blut in die Adern derer, die sich noch immer Arier nann?ten. Zeus und Apollon haben ihre Herrschaft be?halten, solange es griechische G?tter gab, denn das Grie?chenvolk blieb dasselbe. Indra und Agni mussten andern G?ttern das Feld r?umen, denn das indische Volk war ein andres ge?worden. F?r diese Geister, in denen un?er?gr?ndliche Mischungen widerstreitender Kr?fte, mit?einander ver?schlungen, gegeneinander entfesselt, ihr Spiel trieben, waren die Vedag?tter allzu kindlich einfach; gar zu leicht war ihr Wesen ausgesch?pft. Sie waren von Norden ge?kommen: jetzt brauchte man tropische G?tter. Es waren kaum mehr feste Gestalten; es waren ganze Gestal?ten?kn?uel, K?rper, aus denen K?pfe ?ber K?pfe, Arme ?ber Arme hervor?quollen, Mengen von H?nden, die Mengen von Attributen, Keulen und Lotusblumen halten: ?berall ?ppige und d?stere, grandiose Poesie, ?berf?lle und ver?schwommene Formlosigkeit: Ein b?ses Verh?ngnis f?r die bildende Kunst.?) > [A pedantic correction: We met in Berlin on one or two occasions, and I > remember them as rather pleasant.] > > > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > > ________________________________ > > Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE > Gesendet: Sa 14.03.2009 23:47 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers > > > > I guess I was wrong; unfortunately, not everybody had enough of this. > So here we go for one more round, hopefully the last. I apologize for > responding a bit late; I was busy during the last few days. > > Dr. Gruenendahl is right. Two times are not enough to establish a > pattern. Perhaps next time he will side with me against a point made > by Prof. Slaje, but I somehow doubt it. > > What I object to, of course, is not the fact that he takes sides in a > discussion, but to his aggressive manner, malicious distortion of what > I said, his use of ad hominem arguments, and cheap psychological > analysis of the type ?Franco writes because he wants to draw attention > to himself, undeserved attention.? In the same vein I could say, e.g., > ?Gruenendahl?s offensiveness is only due to some personal frustration, > deserved frustration.? However, I do not want to regress to > Kindergarten level. > > Some of you have voiced the concern that the list has become a place > for personal and private battles. I can assure you that there was > absolutely nothing personal in my remark about the Glasenapp > Foundation. Furthermore, Dr. Gruenendahl and I do not know each other; > at least I do not remember ever meeting him. > > Further, I do not think that Dr. Gruenendahl *purposefully* distorts > what I said, but that his vision is blurred by some agenda. The same > kind of distortion, at times even spiteful criticism he displays in > some of his published work, notably in his attempt to exonerate German > Indology from the charge of having been affiliated with National > Socialism. There was a discussion about this last year on the list. > > With best wishes, > Eli Franco > > Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure >> >>> everybody had enough of this by now. >> >> >> >> Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. >> >> I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. > As >> I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so >> much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his >> forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement > with >> Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its >> decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why he >> would rather not discuss it in public. >> >> So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider Professor >> Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that is >> presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal >> interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at > least >> one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the > "whenever"-pattern >> insinuated in his remark. >> >> Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: > "I >> have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure >> everyone had enough of it." >> >> Reinhold Gr?nendahl >> >> ***************************************** >> >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate >> >>> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. >> >>> Best wishes >> >>> EF >> >> >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 16 10:51:02 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 10:51:02 +0000 Subject: AW: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085364.23782.378996404113289828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I add my name to those who politely request that this debate in this form be conducted elsewhere. The topic is of some genuine interest and relevance to the history of the field of indology, and is potentially appropriate for discussion on this list. But much ink has already been spilled, and it seems to me that at present, positions that have already been adequately articulated here and elsewhere are just being repeated. What is particularly inappropriate is the personal tone of the exchanges. This isn't necessary, and while we all enjoy a bit of a tussle sometimes, it really has to be stopped in this forum and at this time. As a member of the INDOLOGY committee, therefore, I would like to ask all members of this list to cease posting on this topic for one week at least. After that, if it is necessary to resume the discussion, it must absolutely be carried out in a genuinely impersonal manner. With thanks to all parties, Dominik Wujastyk -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Mon, 16 Mar 2009, Gruenendahl, Reinhold wrote: > Pressure is building up to end this debate. So I'll be as concise as > possible: > > > > Professor Franco's claim was: > >> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate > >> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. > > Since not "anyone" has access to the archive of the German INDOLOGIE-list > where the exchange Professor Franco refers to took place, I have pasted the > two relevant messages below. I hope this will show that I argued first and > foremost in defence of freedom of information. If Prof. Franco feels that > this is enough to prove his claim, I'm still waiting for a second example to > prove the "whenever"-pattern. > > _______________________ > > > > Meanwhile, Professor Franco has shifted the debate into yet another > direction, claiming that my contribution to the Festschrift Gustav Roth was > an "attempt to exonerate German Indology from its affiliation with National > Socialism". For those who want to hear it, the title of my article says what > it is about: > > "Von der Indologie zum V?lkermord. Die Kontinuit?tskonstrukte Sheldon > Pollocks und seiner Epigonen im Lichte ihrer Beweisf?hrung". > > My "agenda", as Professor Franco put it, was to examine the evidence Pollock > and his epigones produce in support of their claim that "German Indology" > contributed to the formulation of the National Socialist ideology. The result > was that this supposed evidence was largely non-existent. > > This has nothing to do with exonerating "German indology" (a term Pollock > leaves undefined). That some indologists were members of the NSDAP is > undisputed, but it still remains to be shown that they contributed to the > formation of NS ideology, and if so, that their contribution was in any way > informed by their being indologists. > > My examination involved a differentiated look at the positions taken by > Walther W?st and Erich Frauwallner. This part is the source of Professor > Franco's discontextualized quotes, and I must leave it to the discretion of > the reader whether they are an adequate representation of my article. > > If required, I can discuss Professor Franco's charges point by point, but for > the time being I shall leave it at that. > > > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE > Gesendet: Mo 16.03.2009 03:50 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer > Language barriers --- financial barriers) > > > > Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > >> Since Professor Franco indicated that he was too busy for proving his > earlier >> claims it would indeed be too much to ask him to substantiate his latest >> charges. > > Even this very statement is a distortion or ?fabrication.? I never > said or indicated that I am too busy to prove my claims. Dr. > Gruenendahl asked for one example (?may I ask you to give one > example??) and I gave him one example. He may not like the example, he > may think that the example is no good, but he cannot (or should not) > claim that I did not take the time to write to him. > > Further, I tried to take this discussion off the list, honestly > thinking that ?everybody had enough of this.? But Gruenendahl knows > better. The real reason why I do not want to discuss it on the list, > he claims, is that I do not want to discuss the example in public (?I > understand that this is the reason why he would rather not discuss it > in public.?). Basically he accuses me of being dishonest. But this > accusation is plainly absurd. We already discussed this example in > public, and Gruenendahl knows it because he himself participated in > the discussion. If anyone is interested, they can find the discussion > in the archive of the German Indologie discussion group. > > Evidence for ad hominem argument and cheap psychological analysis was > already given in the last message, but if it needs to be ?proved?, I > quote: ?I cannot see who expects to gain from > this, except in terms of attention - undeserved attention, in my > view.? It is clear from the context that this statement refers to me. > > The most significant point, however, which should have a broader > appeal, is Dr. Gruenendahl?s attempt to exonerate German Indology from > its affiliation with National Socialism. I think the issue is > important and want to discuss it in some detail, without, however, > being exhaustive. > > The publication in question is Gruenendahl?s contribution to Gustav > Roth?s Felicitation Volume, entitled ?Von der Indologie zum > V?lkermord,? In U. H?sken, P. Kieffer-P?lz and A. Peters [eds.], > Jaina-Itih?sa-Ratna. Festschrift f?r Gustav Roth zum 90. Geburtstag. > Marburg 2006, pp. 209-236. Already when I first read it, I was > dismayed not only by Gruenendahl?s occasionally spiteful criticism of > Sheldon Pollock, but also by the way Gruenendahl misunderstands and > misrepresents his sources, especially in his attempt to exonerate > Frauwallner from the charge, made by Pollock, of having been > affiliated with National Socialist ideology. > > Gruenendahl (p. 217) argues (and this is typical for his emotional > style) that one would thoroughly misunderstand Pollock?s intentions if > one would drag them down to the level of facts, which are a negligible > quantity in the age of ?polyvalent? discourse. He states that Pollock > does not use facts to determine reality, but resorts to strategic > choices and interpretations of the materials to draw maximum attention > to himself (!). Had I tried, I could not have found a better way to > describe Gruenendahl?s own approach to the topic. > > I will illustrate the above with ?facts.? But let me first note > Gruenendahl?s remarkable lack of sensitivity to the historical and > political context. A racist or racialist statement made in Germany in > 1939 or 1942 cannot be divorced from this context, and to argue, as > Gruenendahl does (e.g., p. 232 and passim), that similar statements > were already made by racists of previous generations (such as > Gobineau, Renan, etc.) and that it is therefore not evident that these > ideas (as expressed e.g., by Frauwallner in 1944) are associated with > National Socialist ideology, is not only na?ve, but preposterous. > > Here are a few examples of how Gruenendahl twists his source material. > > Frauwallner (in 1944) approvingly quotes von Soden to the effect that > only the Indo-Europeans, which are determined by the Nordic race, are > capable of creating science properly speaking and states that ?on the > basis of our investigations up to now we cannot but agree with this > statement? (? ?da? Wis?sen?schaft im strengen Sinn des Wortes etwas > ist, das nur von den von der nordischen Rasse bestimmten Indogermanen > geschaffen werden konnte? (S. 556). Wir k?nnen dieser Behauptung auf > Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen nur beistimmen.?). > > Gruenendahl (p. 232) interprets this statement to mean that > Frauwallner at least signalized some reserve in his endorsement of von > Soden?s statement (?? einen Vorbehalt zumindest angedeutet?). This > interpretation of a stereotypical expression (?auf Grund unserer > bisherigen Betrachtungen?) is simply tendentious and farfetched. There > is certainly nothing in this context to support it. > > Frauwallner?s confident perception of himself as a true pioneer of > solid philological research into the history of Indian philosophy is > misinterpreted by Gruenendahl (p. 231) to mean that Frauwallner stated > that the relevant direction of Indological research (i.e., research > that is programmatically determined by the aspect of race) was in its > beginning?an unsuccessful attempt by Gruenendahl to show, on the > alleged authority of Frauwallner himself, that Indologists up to this > time had not yet followed this line of research. > > Furthermore, in his polemical zeal Gruenendahl misre?presents > Frauwallner?s hypothesis of two distinct, racially conditioned > historical phases of Indian philosophy and inverts Frauwallner?s > judgement about the second period: he presents Frauwallner?s reference > to the peak (occurring in the first half of the second millennium) of > the development of Indian philosophy in its *second*, clearly inferior > phase as the view that ?the mingling of the two races? was fruitful > and even led to a new peak of its own kind of Indian philosophy (p. > 229)! > > Gruenendahl seems to ignore that Frauwallner repeated his racist > interpretation of Indian philosophy even after the war (and without > any reservations) in his ?History of Indian Philosophy,? Vol. I, pp. > 26-27. In this context, Frauwallner?s usage of the typical Nazi term > ?Volksk?rper? (nation?s body) has to be noted. As is well known, the > National Socialists thought of the German nation as a body to be kept > healthy, clean and free from disease, obnoxious influences and > parasites (such as minorities belonging to so-called inferior races). > The same racist historical interpretation is repeated as late as 1959 > in Frauwallner?s article ?Indische Philosophie.? This time at least he > adds that a definitive statement about this, i.e., the racial > background of the two developmental phases of Indian philosophy, seems > ?premature? (verfr?ht). > > That Frauwallner was an anti-Semite is certainly not an unfounded > inference by Pollock (as Gruenendahl claims on p. 233), but a well > attested fact. Even though there are no direct anti-Semitic statements > in Frauwallner?s writings, there are other sources that testify > clearly to his anti-Semitism well after WW II (cf., for instance, the > sources utilized by Jakob Stuchlik?s dissertation submitted to the > University of Vienna in 2005 and his forthcoming monograph on the > background of Frauwallner?s ?Aryan hypothesis? to be published by the > Austrian Academy of Sciences). It is arbitrary and unacceptable to > form a judgement on the basis of published Indological studies alone. > > Gruenendahl points out some differences between Frauwallner?s > statements and those of Chamberlain (p. 228) and the agreement of the > former with Gobineau?s positions (p. 229), but fails to indicate > Frauwallner?s more immediate sources of inspiration. One such source > is the renowned Vedic and Bud?dhist scholar Hermann Oldenberg, whom > Frauwallner admired; some of the former?s statements seem to have been > of direct inspiration to him. I will quote from this source below > because I believe that it is not well known and interesting reading > (Die Literatur des alten Indien, pp. 132-133). > > More details on the relationship between Frauwallner?s work on the > history of Indian philosophy and his National Socialist ideology are > available in a preface by Karin Preisendanz and myself to a > forthcoming reprint of Frauwallner?s Philosophie des Buddhismus. > > As for Gruenendahl?s confident statement that there is evidently no > ideological consensus between Walther W?st and Ludwig Alsdorf (p. > 213), and his denial that racist ideology did not at all affect > Alsdorf?s scholarly work (p. 225), compare the first chapter of > Alsdorf?s ?Indien? in the Weltpolitische B?cherei (supervised by > Alfred Rosenberg himself), second edition, Deutscher Verlag Berlin, > 1942, especially pp. 12-13. > > To be sure, Pollock?s statements and hypotheses are at times daring > and sweeping, but they constitute the beginning of the exploration of > this phase of the history of our discipline, all the more so as, more > than sixty years after WWII, no German Indologist has attempted to > undertake the task of coming to terms with Indology during this dark > period of German history. In this sense, Gruenendahl?s announced > monograph will be very welcome indeed. One only hopes that it will be > less biased than his paper referred to above. > > With best wishes, > Eli Franco > > P.S. For Prof. Slaje?s eloquent praise of Gruenendahl?s work and > method, cf. his message to the list dated January 9, 2007. > > H. Oldenberg, Die Literatur des alten Indien, 2nd ed., Stuttgart 1923, > pp. 132-133: > ?Above all there were probably influences [by the indi?genous people > of India] that worked in a very pro?found way which we can only > surmise: through the gradually progressing transformation of the > blood, which means a transformation of the Soul, through the constant > influx of new quantities of the blood of savages and semi-savages into > the veins of those who still called themselves Aryans. Zeus and Apollo > continued to rule as long as there were Greek gods because the Greek > nation remained the same. Indra and Agni had to leave the field to > other gods because the Indian nation had become a different one. For > these minds, in which an inscrutable jumble of anta?gonistic powers, > intertwined with each other, unleashed at each other, was at work, the > Vedic gods were much too guile?lessly simple; their being was all too > easily exhausted. They had come from the North: now tropical gods were > needed. These were hardly of fixed shapes any longer; they were whole > tangles of shapes, bodies from which oozed heads upon heads, arms upon > arms, multi?tudes of hands holding multitudes of attributes, clubs and > lotus flowers: voluptuous, sombre and grandiose poetry every?where, > exuberance and blurred shapelessness: a terrible disaster for the fine > arts? (?Vor allem werden jene Ein?fl?sse (scil. der Urbewohner > Indiens) in einer tiefsten Weise gewirkt haben, die wir nur ahnen > k?nnen: durch die allm?hlich fortschreitende Wandlung des Blutes, die > eine Wandlung der Seele bedeutet, durch das be?st?ndige Ein?str?men > neuer Mengen von Wilden- und Halb?wil?den?blut in die Adern derer, die > sich noch immer Arier nann?ten. Zeus und Apollon haben ihre Herrschaft > be?halten, solange es griechische G?tter gab, denn das Grie?chenvolk > blieb dasselbe. Indra und Agni mussten andern G?ttern das Feld r?umen, > denn das indische Volk war ein andres ge?worden. F?r diese Geister, in > denen un?er?gr?ndliche Mischungen widerstreitender Kr?fte, > mit?einander ver?schlungen, gegeneinander entfesselt, ihr Spiel > trieben, waren die Vedag?tter allzu kindlich einfach; gar zu leicht > war ihr Wesen ausgesch?pft. Sie waren von Norden ge?kommen: jetzt > brauchte man tropische G?tter. Es waren kaum mehr feste Gestalten; es > waren ganze Gestal?ten?kn?uel, K?rper, aus denen K?pfe ?ber K?pfe, > Arme ?ber Arme hervor?quollen, Mengen von H?nden, die Mengen von > Attributen, Keulen und Lotusblumen halten: ?berall ?ppige und d?stere, > grandiose Poesie, ?berf?lle und ver?schwommene Formlosigkeit: Ein > b?ses Verh?ngnis f?r die bildende Kunst.?) > > > > > > > > > > > >> [A pedantic correction: We met in Berlin on one or two occasions, and I >> remember them as rather pleasant.] >> >> >> >> Reinhold Gr?nendahl >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE >> Gesendet: Sa 14.03.2009 23:47 >> An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Betreff: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers >> >> >> >> I guess I was wrong; unfortunately, not everybody had enough of this. >> So here we go for one more round, hopefully the last. I apologize for >> responding a bit late; I was busy during the last few days. >> >> Dr. Gruenendahl is right. Two times are not enough to establish a >> pattern. Perhaps next time he will side with me against a point made >> by Prof. Slaje, but I somehow doubt it. >> >> What I object to, of course, is not the fact that he takes sides in a >> discussion, but to his aggressive manner, malicious distortion of what >> I said, his use of ad hominem arguments, and cheap psychological >> analysis of the type ?Franco writes because he wants to draw attention >> to himself, undeserved attention.? In the same vein I could say, e.g., >> ?Gruenendahl?s offensiveness is only due to some personal frustration, >> deserved frustration.? However, I do not want to regress to >> Kindergarten level. >> >> Some of you have voiced the concern that the list has become a place >> for personal and private battles. I can assure you that there was >> absolutely nothing personal in my remark about the Glasenapp >> Foundation. Furthermore, Dr. Gruenendahl and I do not know each other; >> at least I do not remember ever meeting him. >> >> Further, I do not think that Dr. Gruenendahl *purposefully* distorts >> what I said, but that his vision is blurred by some agenda. The same >> kind of distortion, at times even spiteful criticism he displays in >> some of his published work, notably in his attempt to exonerate German >> Indology from the charge of having been affiliated with National >> Socialism. There was a discussion about this last year on the list. >> >> With best wishes, >> Eli Franco >> >> Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : >> >>> On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >>> >>>> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure >>> >>>> everybody had enough of this by now. >>> >>> >>> >>> Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. >>> >>> I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. >> As >>> I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so >>> much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his >>> forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement >> with >>> Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its >>> decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why > he >>> would rather not discuss it in public. >>> >>> So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider > Professor >>> Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that > is >>> presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal >>> interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at >> least >>> one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the >> "whenever"-pattern >>> insinuated in his remark. >>> >>> Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: >> "I >>> have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure >>> everyone had enough of it." >>> >>> Reinhold Gr?nendahl >>> >>> ***************************************** >>> >>> On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >>> >>>> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate >>> >>>> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. >>> >>>> Best wishes >>> >>>> EF >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > > > > ################################################################# > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "gruenendahl" > > To: "Eli Franco" ; "Informationsaustausch der > > deutschsprachigen Indologie" > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:56 AM > > Subject: Re: Urteil Oberverwaltungsgericht Hamburg zu Berufungsverfahren > > > > Ich kann weder erkennen, weshalb der Hinweis von Herrn Slaje auf eine > > im Internet zug?ngliche Information "einiger Pr?zisierungen und > > Erg?nzungen" bed?rfte, noch, welchen Beitrag die Einlassung von Herrn > > Franco dazu ggf. leisten k?nnte. Gegenstand der Nachricht von Herrn > > Slaje war die Bereitstellung der Information, nicht das Gerichtsurteil. Den > > Hinweis von Herrn Slaje nehme ich dankend zur Kenntnis, die kaum > > objektiv zu nennende Einsch?tzung des Berufungsverfahrens (" ... zum > > Himmel stinkt ..." etc.) sowie des in der Sache ergangenen Urteils sollte > > aus meiner Sicht nicht Gegenstand dieser Liste sein. > > > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > ***************************************************************************** > ******** > > > > > > Absender: "Eli Franco" > > Empf nger: > > Datum: 27. Sep 2005 02:05 > > Betreff: Re: Urteil Oberverwaltungsgericht Hamburg zu Berufungsverfahren > > Herr Gruenendahl liest nicht richtig. Herr Slajes Nachricht ist nicht bloss > > ein Hinweis, sondern auch eine Behauptung, naemlich dass der Urteil des > > Oberverwaltungsgerichts Hamburg "auch f?r die Indologie von erheblicher > > Relevanz sein d rfte", und dies ist falsch oder "bedarf einer > > Praezisierung", weil jedes Bundesland ein anderes Hochschulgesetz hat. > > Welche Motivation hinter diesem angeblich neutralem Hinweis steht, vermag > > ich nicht zu sagen. > > Herr Gruenendahl folgert auch nicht richtig. Nur aus der Behauptung, dass > > das Verfahren stinkt, kann man nicht erschliessen, dass die Behauptung nicht > > "objektiv" ist. Manche Verfahren stinken auch "objektiv" und im vorliegenden > > Fall wurden auch die durchaus nachweisbaren, objektiven Indizien dafuer > > angefuehrt. > > Mir ist ferner nicht ersichtlich warum er nur fuer eine gewisse Art von > > Information dankbar ist, und nicht fuer eine andere. > > Ich bin jedoch im Grunde ganz Herrn Gruenendahls Meinung. Das Urteil sollte > > nicht Gegenstand > > einer Diskussion in dieser Liste sein und ich haette auch nichts darueber > > geschrieben, wenn Herr > > Slaje nicht mit seinem "objektiven" Hinweis und seiner Behauptung eben eine > > solche provoziert > > haette. > > Mit freundliche Gruessen > > Eli Franco > > > > > > > > > From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Mon Mar 16 10:35:20 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 11:35:20 +0100 Subject: AW: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) Message-ID: <161227085361.23782.5324103697667741624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pressure is building up to end this debate. So I'll be as concise as possible: Professor Franco's claim was: > It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate > Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. Since not "anyone" has access to the archive of the German INDOLOGIE-list where the exchange Professor Franco refers to took place, I have pasted the two relevant messages below. I hope this will show that I argued first and foremost in defence of freedom of information. If Prof. Franco feels that this is enough to prove his claim, I'm still waiting for a second example to prove the "whenever"-pattern. _______________________ Meanwhile, Professor Franco has shifted the debate into yet another direction, claiming that my contribution to the Festschrift Gustav Roth was an "attempt to exonerate German Indology from its affiliation with National Socialism". For those who want to hear it, the title of my article says what it is about: "Von der Indologie zum V?lkermord. Die Kontinuit?tskonstrukte Sheldon Pollocks und seiner Epigonen im Lichte ihrer Beweisf?hrung". My "agenda", as Professor Franco put it, was to examine the evidence Pollock and his epigones produce in support of their claim that "German Indology" contributed to the formulation of the National Socialist ideology. The result was that this supposed evidence was largely non-existent. This has nothing to do with exonerating "German indology" (a term Pollock leaves undefined). That some indologists were members of the NSDAP is undisputed, but it still remains to be shown that they contributed to the formation of NS ideology, and if so, that their contribution was in any way informed by their being indologists. My examination involved a differentiated look at the positions taken by Walther W?st and Erich Frauwallner. This part is the source of Professor Franco's discontextualized quotes, and I must leave it to the discretion of the reader whether they are an adequate representation of my article. If required, I can discuss Professor Franco's charges point by point, but for the time being I shall leave it at that. Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Gesendet: Mo 16.03.2009 03:50 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > Since Professor Franco indicated that he was too busy for proving his earlier > claims it would indeed be too much to ask him to substantiate his latest > charges. Even this very statement is a distortion or ?fabrication.? I never said or indicated that I am too busy to prove my claims. Dr. Gruenendahl asked for one example (?may I ask you to give one example??) and I gave him one example. He may not like the example, he may think that the example is no good, but he cannot (or should not) claim that I did not take the time to write to him. Further, I tried to take this discussion off the list, honestly thinking that ?everybody had enough of this.? But Gruenendahl knows better. The real reason why I do not want to discuss it on the list, he claims, is that I do not want to discuss the example in public (?I understand that this is the reason why he would rather not discuss it in public.?). Basically he accuses me of being dishonest. But this accusation is plainly absurd. We already discussed this example in public, and Gruenendahl knows it because he himself participated in the discussion. If anyone is interested, they can find the discussion in the archive of the German Indologie discussion group. Evidence for ad hominem argument and cheap psychological analysis was already given in the last message, but if it needs to be ?proved?, I quote: ?I cannot see who expects to gain from this, except in terms of attention - undeserved attention, in my view.? It is clear from the context that this statement refers to me. The most significant point, however, which should have a broader appeal, is Dr. Gruenendahl?s attempt to exonerate German Indology from its affiliation with National Socialism. I think the issue is important and want to discuss it in some detail, without, however, being exhaustive. The publication in question is Gruenendahl?s contribution to Gustav Roth?s Felicitation Volume, entitled ?Von der Indologie zum V?lkermord,? In U. H?sken, P. Kieffer-P?lz and A. Peters [eds.], Jaina-Itih?sa-Ratna. Festschrift f?r Gustav Roth zum 90. Geburtstag. Marburg 2006, pp. 209-236. Already when I first read it, I was dismayed not only by Gruenendahl?s occasionally spiteful criticism of Sheldon Pollock, but also by the way Gruenendahl misunderstands and misrepresents his sources, especially in his attempt to exonerate Frauwallner from the charge, made by Pollock, of having been affiliated with National Socialist ideology. Gruenendahl (p. 217) argues (and this is typical for his emotional style) that one would thoroughly misunderstand Pollock?s intentions if one would drag them down to the level of facts, which are a negligible quantity in the age of ?polyvalent? discourse. He states that Pollock does not use facts to determine reality, but resorts to strategic choices and interpretations of the materials to draw maximum attention to himself (!). Had I tried, I could not have found a better way to describe Gruenendahl?s own approach to the topic. I will illustrate the above with ?facts.? But let me first note Gruenendahl?s remarkable lack of sensitivity to the historical and political context. A racist or racialist statement made in Germany in 1939 or 1942 cannot be divorced from this context, and to argue, as Gruenendahl does (e.g., p. 232 and passim), that similar statements were already made by racists of previous generations (such as Gobineau, Renan, etc.) and that it is therefore not evident that these ideas (as expressed e.g., by Frauwallner in 1944) are associated with National Socialist ideology, is not only na?ve, but preposterous. Here are a few examples of how Gruenendahl twists his source material. Frauwallner (in 1944) approvingly quotes von Soden to the effect that only the Indo-Europeans, which are determined by the Nordic race, are capable of creating science properly speaking and states that ?on the basis of our investigations up to now we cannot but agree with this statement? (? ?da? Wis?sen?schaft im strengen Sinn des Wortes etwas ist, das nur von den von der nordischen Rasse bestimmten Indogermanen geschaffen werden konnte? (S. 556). Wir k?nnen dieser Behauptung auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen nur beistimmen.?). Gruenendahl (p. 232) interprets this statement to mean that Frauwallner at least signalized some reserve in his endorsement of von Soden?s statement (?? einen Vorbehalt zumindest angedeutet?). This interpretation of a stereotypical expression (?auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen?) is simply tendentious and farfetched. There is certainly nothing in this context to support it. Frauwallner?s confident perception of himself as a true pioneer of solid philological research into the history of Indian philosophy is misinterpreted by Gruenendahl (p. 231) to mean that Frauwallner stated that the relevant direction of Indological research (i.e., research that is programmatically determined by the aspect of race) was in its beginning?an unsuccessful attempt by Gruenendahl to show, on the alleged authority of Frauwallner himself, that Indologists up to this time had not yet followed this line of research. Furthermore, in his polemical zeal Gruenendahl misre?presents Frauwallner?s hypothesis of two distinct, racially conditioned historical phases of Indian philosophy and inverts Frauwallner?s judgement about the second period: he presents Frauwallner?s reference to the peak (occurring in the first half of the second millennium) of the development of Indian philosophy in its *second*, clearly inferior phase as the view that ?the mingling of the two races? was fruitful and even led to a new peak of its own kind of Indian philosophy (p. 229)! Gruenendahl seems to ignore that Frauwallner repeated his racist interpretation of Indian philosophy even after the war (and without any reservations) in his ?History of Indian Philosophy,? Vol. I, pp. 26-27. In this context, Frauwallner?s usage of the typical Nazi term ?Volksk?rper? (nation?s body) has to be noted. As is well known, the National Socialists thought of the German nation as a body to be kept healthy, clean and free from disease, obnoxious influences and parasites (such as minorities belonging to so-called inferior races). The same racist historical interpretation is repeated as late as 1959 in Frauwallner?s article ?Indische Philosophie.? This time at least he adds that a definitive statement about this, i.e., the racial background of the two developmental phases of Indian philosophy, seems ?premature? (verfr?ht). That Frauwallner was an anti-Semite is certainly not an unfounded inference by Pollock (as Gruenendahl claims on p. 233), but a well attested fact. Even though there are no direct anti-Semitic statements in Frauwallner?s writings, there are other sources that testify clearly to his anti-Semitism well after WW II (cf., for instance, the sources utilized by Jakob Stuchlik?s dissertation submitted to the University of Vienna in 2005 and his forthcoming monograph on the background of Frauwallner?s ?Aryan hypothesis? to be published by the Austrian Academy of Sciences). It is arbitrary and unacceptable to form a judgement on the basis of published Indological studies alone. Gruenendahl points out some differences between Frauwallner?s statements and those of Chamberlain (p. 228) and the agreement of the former with Gobineau?s positions (p. 229), but fails to indicate Frauwallner?s more immediate sources of inspiration. One such source is the renowned Vedic and Bud?dhist scholar Hermann Oldenberg, whom Frauwallner admired; some of the former?s statements seem to have been of direct inspiration to him. I will quote from this source below because I believe that it is not well known and interesting reading (Die Literatur des alten Indien, pp. 132-133). More details on the relationship between Frauwallner?s work on the history of Indian philosophy and his National Socialist ideology are available in a preface by Karin Preisendanz and myself to a forthcoming reprint of Frauwallner?s Philosophie des Buddhismus. As for Gruenendahl?s confident statement that there is evidently no ideological consensus between Walther W?st and Ludwig Alsdorf (p. 213), and his denial that racist ideology did not at all affect Alsdorf?s scholarly work (p. 225), compare the first chapter of Alsdorf?s ?Indien? in the Weltpolitische B?cherei (supervised by Alfred Rosenberg himself), second edition, Deutscher Verlag Berlin, 1942, especially pp. 12-13. To be sure, Pollock?s statements and hypotheses are at times daring and sweeping, but they constitute the beginning of the exploration of this phase of the history of our discipline, all the more so as, more than sixty years after WWII, no German Indologist has attempted to undertake the task of coming to terms with Indology during this dark period of German history. In this sense, Gruenendahl?s announced monograph will be very welcome indeed. One only hopes that it will be less biased than his paper referred to above. With best wishes, Eli Franco P.S. For Prof. Slaje?s eloquent praise of Gruenendahl?s work and method, cf. his message to the list dated January 9, 2007. H. Oldenberg, Die Literatur des alten Indien, 2nd ed., Stuttgart 1923, pp. 132-133: ?Above all there were probably influences [by the indi?genous people of India] that worked in a very pro?found way which we can only surmise: through the gradually progressing transformation of the blood, which means a transformation of the Soul, through the constant influx of new quantities of the blood of savages and semi-savages into the veins of those who still called themselves Aryans. Zeus and Apollo continued to rule as long as there were Greek gods because the Greek nation remained the same. Indra and Agni had to leave the field to other gods because the Indian nation had become a different one. For these minds, in which an inscrutable jumble of anta?gonistic powers, intertwined with each other, unleashed at each other, was at work, the Vedic gods were much too guile?lessly simple; their being was all too easily exhausted. They had come from the North: now tropical gods were needed. These were hardly of fixed shapes any longer; they were whole tangles of shapes, bodies from which oozed heads upon heads, arms upon arms, multi?tudes of hands holding multitudes of attributes, clubs and lotus flowers: voluptuous, sombre and grandiose poetry every?where, exuberance and blurred shapelessness: a terrible disaster for the fine arts? (?Vor allem werden jene Ein?fl?sse (scil. der Urbewohner Indiens) in einer tiefsten Weise gewirkt haben, die wir nur ahnen k?nnen: durch die allm?hlich fortschreitende Wandlung des Blutes, die eine Wandlung der Seele bedeutet, durch das be?st?ndige Ein?str?men neuer Mengen von Wilden- und Halb?wil?den?blut in die Adern derer, die sich noch immer Arier nann?ten. Zeus und Apollon haben ihre Herrschaft be?halten, solange es griechische G?tter gab, denn das Grie?chenvolk blieb dasselbe. Indra und Agni mussten andern G?ttern das Feld r?umen, denn das indische Volk war ein andres ge?worden. F?r diese Geister, in denen un?er?gr?ndliche Mischungen widerstreitender Kr?fte, mit?einander ver?schlungen, gegeneinander entfesselt, ihr Spiel trieben, waren die Vedag?tter allzu kindlich einfach; gar zu leicht war ihr Wesen ausgesch?pft. Sie waren von Norden ge?kommen: jetzt brauchte man tropische G?tter. Es waren kaum mehr feste Gestalten; es waren ganze Gestal?ten?kn?uel, K?rper, aus denen K?pfe ?ber K?pfe, Arme ?ber Arme hervor?quollen, Mengen von H?nden, die Mengen von Attributen, Keulen und Lotusblumen halten: ?berall ?ppige und d?stere, grandiose Poesie, ?berf?lle und ver?schwommene Formlosigkeit: Ein b?ses Verh?ngnis f?r die bildende Kunst.?) > [A pedantic correction: We met in Berlin on one or two occasions, and I > remember them as rather pleasant.] > > > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > > ________________________________ > > Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE > Gesendet: Sa 14.03.2009 23:47 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers > > > > I guess I was wrong; unfortunately, not everybody had enough of this. > So here we go for one more round, hopefully the last. I apologize for > responding a bit late; I was busy during the last few days. > > Dr. Gruenendahl is right. Two times are not enough to establish a > pattern. Perhaps next time he will side with me against a point made > by Prof. Slaje, but I somehow doubt it. > > What I object to, of course, is not the fact that he takes sides in a > discussion, but to his aggressive manner, malicious distortion of what > I said, his use of ad hominem arguments, and cheap psychological > analysis of the type ?Franco writes because he wants to draw attention > to himself, undeserved attention.? In the same vein I could say, e.g., > ?Gruenendahl?s offensiveness is only due to some personal frustration, > deserved frustration.? However, I do not want to regress to > Kindergarten level. > > Some of you have voiced the concern that the list has become a place > for personal and private battles. I can assure you that there was > absolutely nothing personal in my remark about the Glasenapp > Foundation. Furthermore, Dr. Gruenendahl and I do not know each other; > at least I do not remember ever meeting him. > > Further, I do not think that Dr. Gruenendahl *purposefully* distorts > what I said, but that his vision is blurred by some agenda. The same > kind of distortion, at times even spiteful criticism he displays in > some of his published work, notably in his attempt to exonerate German > Indology from the charge of having been affiliated with National > Socialism. There was a discussion about this last year on the list. > > With best wishes, > Eli Franco > > Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure >> >>> everybody had enough of this by now. >> >> >> >> Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. >> >> I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. > As >> I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so >> much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his >> forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement > with >> Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its >> decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why he >> would rather not discuss it in public. >> >> So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider Professor >> Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that is >> presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal >> interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at > least >> one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the > "whenever"-pattern >> insinuated in his remark. >> >> Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: > "I >> have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure >> everyone had enough of it." >> >> Reinhold Gr?nendahl >> >> ***************************************** >> >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate >> >>> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. >> >>> Best wishes >> >>> EF >> >> >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ################################################################# ----- Original Message ----- From: "gruenendahl" To: "Eli Franco" ; "Informationsaustausch der deutschsprachigen Indologie" Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Urteil Oberverwaltungsgericht Hamburg zu Berufungsverfahren Ich kann weder erkennen, weshalb der Hinweis von Herrn Slaje auf eine im Internet zug?ngliche Information "einiger Pr?zisierungen und Erg?nzungen" bed?rfte, noch, welchen Beitrag die Einlassung von Herrn Franco dazu ggf. leisten k?nnte. Gegenstand der Nachricht von Herrn Slaje war die Bereitstellung der Information, nicht das Gerichtsurteil. Den Hinweis von Herrn Slaje nehme ich dankend zur Kenntnis, die kaum objektiv zu nennende Einsch?tzung des Berufungsverfahrens (" ... zum Himmel stinkt ..." etc.) sowie des in der Sache ergangenen Urteils sollte aus meiner Sicht nicht Gegenstand dieser Liste sein. Mit freundlichen Gr??en Reinhold Gr?nendahl ***************************************************************************** ******** Absender: "Eli Franco" Empf nger: Datum: 27. Sep 2005 02:05 Betreff: Re: Urteil Oberverwaltungsgericht Hamburg zu Berufungsverfahren Herr Gruenendahl liest nicht richtig. Herr Slajes Nachricht ist nicht bloss ein Hinweis, sondern auch eine Behauptung, naemlich dass der Urteil des Oberverwaltungsgerichts Hamburg "auch f?r die Indologie von erheblicher Relevanz sein d rfte", und dies ist falsch oder "bedarf einer Praezisierung", weil jedes Bundesland ein anderes Hochschulgesetz hat. Welche Motivation hinter diesem angeblich neutralem Hinweis steht, vermag ich nicht zu sagen. Herr Gruenendahl folgert auch nicht richtig. Nur aus der Behauptung, dass das Verfahren stinkt, kann man nicht erschliessen, dass die Behauptung nicht "objektiv" ist. Manche Verfahren stinken auch "objektiv" und im vorliegenden Fall wurden auch die durchaus nachweisbaren, objektiven Indizien dafuer angefuehrt. Mir ist ferner nicht ersichtlich warum er nur fuer eine gewisse Art von Information dankbar ist, und nicht fuer eine andere. Ich bin jedoch im Grunde ganz Herrn Gruenendahls Meinung. Das Urteil sollte nicht Gegenstand einer Diskussion in dieser Liste sein und ich haette auch nichts darueber geschrieben, wenn Herr Slaje nicht mit seinem "objektiven" Hinweis und seiner Behauptung eben eine solche provoziert haette. Mit freundliche Gruessen Eli Franco From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Mon Mar 16 15:54:08 2009 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 16:54:08 +0100 Subject: time to change the tune In-Reply-To: <20090316031204.BUC75839@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085367.23782.6168267186751270740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is sometimes easy to be carried away, but in order to protect the large majority of "good guys/girls" from this list and in order not to scare them away: Dominik's old rule of thumb "two warnings then out" (stemming from the early times of the "wild" indology list) should be announced, should be known to all list members and should be adhered to. Jan Houben On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:12 AM, wrote: > I find the use of the Indology list > by our colleagues in Germany to be > tiresome in the extreme and not > to accord very well with the purposes > for which Indology was established. > > If this continues much longer, I, for > one, will withdraw my name from the subscription list. > > Perhaps a separate listserve dedicated to > settling scores in Germany should be contemplated, > so that those interested in this will have > their own playpen. > > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Mon Mar 16 18:53:14 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 19:53:14 +0100 Subject: time to change the tune In-Reply-To: <20090316031204.BUC75839@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085370.23782.16728150101259630480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some days ago I cautiously attempted the same warning. But instead of understanding I was met with barking from various sides at my temerity. This is precisely why a forum or discussionlist needs moderators. Greetings Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Verzonden: maandag 16 maart 2009 9:12 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: time to change the tune I find the use of the Indology list by our colleagues in Germany to be tiresome in the extreme and not to accord very well with the purposes for which Indology was established. If this continues much longer, I, for one, will withdraw my name from the subscription list. Perhaps a separate listserve dedicated to settling scores in Germany should be contemplated, so that those interested in this will have their own playpen. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Mon Mar 16 18:56:13 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 19:56:13 +0100 Subject: time to change the tune In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085373.23782.658908044862489604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I had already suggested as much, some days ago but all I harvested was criticism and a lesson to the effect that this list does not moderate. But obviously, this is necessary. Not because the subject of 'Nazi-indology'would not be appropriate as a topic to discuss here, but because the discussion deteriorates into mud-slinging and personal allegations and counter-allegations. Victor -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Jan Houben Verzonden: maandag 16 maart 2009 16:54 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: time to change the tune It is sometimes easy to be carried away, but in order to protect the large majority of "good guys/girls" from this list and in order not to scare them away: Dominik's old rule of thumb "two warnings then out" (stemming from the early times of the "wild" indology list) should be announced, should be known to all list members and should be adhered to. Jan Houben On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:12 AM, wrote: > I find the use of the Indology list > by our colleagues in Germany to be > tiresome in the extreme and not > to accord very well with the purposes > for which Indology was established. > > If this continues much longer, I, for > one, will withdraw my name from the subscription list. > > Perhaps a separate listserve dedicated to > settling scores in Germany should be contemplated, > so that those interested in this will have > their own playpen. > > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Mon Mar 16 22:22:48 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 23:22:48 +0100 Subject: Oldenberg In-Reply-To: <981159.272.qm@web8604.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085376.23782.16872479303579473662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As far as I know he was not a Jew. According to Stache-Rosen, Oldenberg was the son of a protestant clergyman. Best wishes Eli Franco Zitat von Dipak Bhattacharya : > Perhaps, I read somewhere that H.Oldenberg was Jew. It has remained > a mystery to me that he could still be?an Aryanist in the bad sense > of the term? The forces at play in pre-Nazi Europe and the odd > equations reached thereby are of course not well-known?to me. Or the > information was incorrect? > DB > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Tue Mar 17 03:50:15 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 09 09:20:15 +0530 Subject: MBh. 2.54.22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085380.23782.12917358587577961261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As you've probably noticed, there seem to be a few other passages in the Mahaabhaarata (2.25:6, 2.25:19, 2.47:4, 3.79:24) in which it is clear that horses are meant. It seems, by the way, that tittirikalmaa.sa should be treated as one variety and not two, for there is a description of the king's stables in Har.sacarita 2 which begins with: atha vanaayujai.h , aara.t.tajai.h, kaambojai.h, bhaaradvaajai.h, sandhude"sajai.h, paarasiikai"s ca, "so.nai"s ca, "syaamai"s ca, "svetai"s ca, pi~njarai"s ca, haridbhi"s ca, tittirikalmaa.sai"s ca, pa~ncabhadrai"s ca, mallikaak.sai"s ca, k.rttikaapi~njarai"s ca, aayatanirmaa.msamukhai.h, anutka.takar.nako"sai.h,... tittirikalmaa.sa there is taken by Cowell and Thomas to mean "dappled like partridges", and this reflects the old commentary of "Sa"nkara (pp.99--100 of F?hrer's edition), who has remarks to make on some of the other horses too. The feminine form, tittirikalmaa.sii (describing a mare?) is mentioned in the Vaakyapadiiya. Dominic Goodall Pondicherry Centre, Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient ("French School of Asian Studies"), P.O. Box 151, 16 & 19, Dumas Street, Pondicherry 605001 On 16 Mar 2009, at 16:01, Stella Sandahl wrote: > MBh. 22.54.22 says: azvAMs tittiri-kalmASAn gandharvAn ... dadau > CitrarathaH... > It seems to be that tittiri, kalmASa and gandharva could refer to > different breeds/kinds of horses. Renou understood it that way > (Anthologie sanscrite), > but he gives no reference to support this. > Nakula's AzvaZAstra (Thanjavur Sarasvati Mahal Series No. 56) has > no reference to breeds of horses either as far as I can discover. > So where can one find a clarification? Many thanks! > Stella Sandahl > > > -- > Professor Stella Sandahl > Department of East Asian Studies > 130 St. George St. room 14087 > Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca > Tel. (416) 978-4295 > Fax. (416) 978-5711 From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Tue Mar 17 14:39:50 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 09 15:39:50 +0100 Subject: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: <20090316035056.12334fj4o297tfgw@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085383.23782.4224336754321680411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although I did not want to continue this particular line of discussion, I feel tempted to highlight the passage below To be sure, Pollock?s statements and hypotheses are at times daring and sweeping, but they constitute the beginning of the exploration of this phase of the history of our discipline, all the more so as, more than sixty years after WWII, no German Indologist has attempted to undertake the task of coming to terms with Indology during this dark period of German history. In this sense, Gruenendahl?s announced monograph will be very welcome indeed. One only hopes that it will be less biased than his paper referred to above. It is my experience that even in the presentday context classical Indology seems to be occasionally or even unwillingly drawn into political discourses of the same ilk. National Socialism may be dead, there are still or again coming up, adherents of this ideology or of cognate authoritarian, anti-democratic, racist and elitist ideologies, who at the same time profess admiration for things Indian. I feel Indologists should know very well the kinds of circles they move in. But I may have the advantage of a longstanding interest in sociology, history and political philosophy, and of some firsthand experience with these matters. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Verzonden: maandag 16 maart 2009 3:51 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > Since Professor Franco indicated that he was too busy for proving his earlier > claims it would indeed be too much to ask him to substantiate his latest > charges. Even this very statement is a distortion or ?fabrication.? I never said or indicated that I am too busy to prove my claims. Dr. Gruenendahl asked for one example (?may I ask you to give one example??) and I gave him one example. He may not like the example, he may think that the example is no good, but he cannot (or should not) claim that I did not take the time to write to him. Further, I tried to take this discussion off the list, honestly thinking that ?everybody had enough of this.? But Gruenendahl knows better. The real reason why I do not want to discuss it on the list, he claims, is that I do not want to discuss the example in public (?I understand that this is the reason why he would rather not discuss it in public.?). Basically he accuses me of being dishonest. But this accusation is plainly absurd. We already discussed this example in public, and Gruenendahl knows it because he himself participated in the discussion. If anyone is interested, they can find the discussion in the archive of the German Indologie discussion group. Evidence for ad hominem argument and cheap psychological analysis was already given in the last message, but if it needs to be ?proved?, I quote: ?I cannot see who expects to gain from this, except in terms of attention - undeserved attention, in my view.? It is clear from the context that this statement refers to me. The most significant point, however, which should have a broader appeal, is Dr. Gruenendahl?s attempt to exonerate German Indology from its affiliation with National Socialism. I think the issue is important and want to discuss it in some detail, without, however, being exhaustive. The publication in question is Gruenendahl?s contribution to Gustav Roth?s Felicitation Volume, entitled ?Von der Indologie zum V?lkermord,? In U. H?sken, P. Kieffer-P?lz and A. Peters [eds.], Jaina-Itih?sa-Ratna. Festschrift f?r Gustav Roth zum 90. Geburtstag. Marburg 2006, pp. 209-236. Already when I first read it, I was dismayed not only by Gruenendahl?s occasionally spiteful criticism of Sheldon Pollock, but also by the way Gruenendahl misunderstands and misrepresents his sources, especially in his attempt to exonerate Frauwallner from the charge, made by Pollock, of having been affiliated with National Socialist ideology. Gruenendahl (p. 217) argues (and this is typical for his emotional style) that one would thoroughly misunderstand Pollock?s intentions if one would drag them down to the level of facts, which are a negligible quantity in the age of ?polyvalent? discourse. He states that Pollock does not use facts to determine reality, but resorts to strategic choices and interpretations of the materials to draw maximum attention to himself (!). Had I tried, I could not have found a better way to describe Gruenendahl?s own approach to the topic. I will illustrate the above with ?facts.? But let me first note Gruenendahl?s remarkable lack of sensitivity to the historical and political context. A racist or racialist statement made in Germany in 1939 or 1942 cannot be divorced from this context, and to argue, as Gruenendahl does (e.g., p. 232 and passim), that similar statements were already made by racists of previous generations (such as Gobineau, Renan, etc.) and that it is therefore not evident that these ideas (as expressed e.g., by Frauwallner in 1944) are associated with National Socialist ideology, is not only na?ve, but preposterous. Here are a few examples of how Gruenendahl twists his source material. Frauwallner (in 1944) approvingly quotes von Soden to the effect that only the Indo-Europeans, which are determined by the Nordic race, are capable of creating science properly speaking and states that ?on the basis of our investigations up to now we cannot but agree with this statement? (? ?da? Wis?sen?schaft im strengen Sinn des Wortes etwas ist, das nur von den von der nordischen Rasse bestimmten Indogermanen geschaffen werden konnte? (S. 556). Wir k?nnen dieser Behauptung auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen nur beistimmen.?). Gruenendahl (p. 232) interprets this statement to mean that Frauwallner at least signalized some reserve in his endorsement of von Soden?s statement (?? einen Vorbehalt zumindest angedeutet?). This interpretation of a stereotypical expression (?auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen?) is simply tendentious and farfetched. There is certainly nothing in this context to support it. Frauwallner?s confident perception of himself as a true pioneer of solid philological research into the history of Indian philosophy is misinterpreted by Gruenendahl (p. 231) to mean that Frauwallner stated that the relevant direction of Indological research (i.e., research that is programmatically determined by the aspect of race) was in its beginning?an unsuccessful attempt by Gruenendahl to show, on the alleged authority of Frauwallner himself, that Indologists up to this time had not yet followed this line of research. Furthermore, in his polemical zeal Gruenendahl misre?presents Frauwallner?s hypothesis of two distinct, racially conditioned historical phases of Indian philosophy and inverts Frauwallner?s judgement about the second period: he presents Frauwallner?s reference to the peak (occurring in the first half of the second millennium) of the development of Indian philosophy in its *second*, clearly inferior phase as the view that ?the mingling of the two races? was fruitful and even led to a new peak of its own kind of Indian philosophy (p. 229)! Gruenendahl seems to ignore that Frauwallner repeated his racist interpretation of Indian philosophy even after the war (and without any reservations) in his ?History of Indian Philosophy,? Vol. I, pp. 26-27. In this context, Frauwallner?s usage of the typical Nazi term ?Volksk?rper? (nation?s body) has to be noted. As is well known, the National Socialists thought of the German nation as a body to be kept healthy, clean and free from disease, obnoxious influences and parasites (such as minorities belonging to so-called inferior races). The same racist historical interpretation is repeated as late as 1959 in Frauwallner?s article ?Indische Philosophie.? This time at least he adds that a definitive statement about this, i.e., the racial background of the two developmental phases of Indian philosophy, seems ?premature? (verfr?ht). That Frauwallner was an anti-Semite is certainly not an unfounded inference by Pollock (as Gruenendahl claims on p. 233), but a well attested fact. Even though there are no direct anti-Semitic statements in Frauwallner?s writings, there are other sources that testify clearly to his anti-Semitism well after WW II (cf., for instance, the sources utilized by Jakob Stuchlik?s dissertation submitted to the University of Vienna in 2005 and his forthcoming monograph on the background of Frauwallner?s ?Aryan hypothesis? to be published by the Austrian Academy of Sciences). It is arbitrary and unacceptable to form a judgement on the basis of published Indological studies alone. Gruenendahl points out some differences between Frauwallner?s statements and those of Chamberlain (p. 228) and the agreement of the former with Gobineau?s positions (p. 229), but fails to indicate Frauwallner?s more immediate sources of inspiration. One such source is the renowned Vedic and Bud?dhist scholar Hermann Oldenberg, whom Frauwallner admired; some of the former?s statements seem to have been of direct inspiration to him. I will quote from this source below because I believe that it is not well known and interesting reading (Die Literatur des alten Indien, pp. 132-133). More details on the relationship between Frauwallner?s work on the history of Indian philosophy and his National Socialist ideology are available in a preface by Karin Preisendanz and myself to a forthcoming reprint of Frauwallner?s Philosophie des Buddhismus. As for Gruenendahl?s confident statement that there is evidently no ideological consensus between Walther W?st and Ludwig Alsdorf (p. 213), and his denial that racist ideology did not at all affect Alsdorf?s scholarly work (p. 225), compare the first chapter of Alsdorf?s ?Indien? in the Weltpolitische B?cherei (supervised by Alfred Rosenberg himself), second edition, Deutscher Verlag Berlin, 1942, especially pp. 12-13. To be sure, Pollock?s statements and hypotheses are at times daring and sweeping, but they constitute the beginning of the exploration of this phase of the history of our discipline, all the more so as, more than sixty years after WWII, no German Indologist has attempted to undertake the task of coming to terms with Indology during this dark period of German history. In this sense, Gruenendahl?s announced monograph will be very welcome indeed. One only hopes that it will be less biased than his paper referred to above. With best wishes, Eli Franco P.S. For Prof. Slaje?s eloquent praise of Gruenendahl?s work and method, cf. his message to the list dated January 9, 2007. H. Oldenberg, Die Literatur des alten Indien, 2nd ed., Stuttgart 1923, pp. 132-133: ?Above all there were probably influences [by the indi?genous people of India] that worked in a very pro?found way which we can only surmise: through the gradually progressing transformation of the blood, which means a transformation of the Soul, through the constant influx of new quantities of the blood of savages and semi-savages into the veins of those who still called themselves Aryans. Zeus and Apollo continued to rule as long as there were Greek gods because the Greek nation remained the same. Indra and Agni had to leave the field to other gods because the Indian nation had become a different one. For these minds, in which an inscrutable jumble of anta?gonistic powers, intertwined with each other, unleashed at each other, was at work, the Vedic gods were much too guile?lessly simple; their being was all too easily exhausted. They had come from the North: now tropical gods were needed. These were hardly of fixed shapes any longer; they were whole tangles of shapes, bodies from which oozed heads upon heads, arms upon arms, multi?tudes of hands holding multitudes of attributes, clubs and lotus flowers: voluptuous, sombre and grandiose poetry every?where, exuberance and blurred shapelessness: a terrible disaster for the fine arts? (?Vor allem werden jene Ein?fl?sse (scil. der Urbewohner Indiens) in einer tiefsten Weise gewirkt haben, die wir nur ahnen k?nnen: durch die allm?hlich fortschreitende Wandlung des Blutes, die eine Wandlung der Seele bedeutet, durch das be?st?ndige Ein?str?men neuer Mengen von Wilden- und Halb?wil?den?blut in die Adern derer, die sich noch immer Arier nann?ten. Zeus und Apollon haben ihre Herrschaft be?halten, solange es griechische G?tter gab, denn das Grie?chenvolk blieb dasselbe. Indra und Agni mussten andern G?ttern das Feld r?umen, denn das indische Volk war ein andres ge?worden. F?r diese Geister, in denen un?er?gr?ndliche Mischungen widerstreitender Kr?fte, mit?einander ver?schlungen, gegeneinander entfesselt, ihr Spiel trieben, waren die Vedag?tter allzu kindlich einfach; gar zu leicht war ihr Wesen ausgesch?pft. Sie waren von Norden ge?kommen: jetzt brauchte man tropische G?tter. Es waren kaum mehr feste Gestalten; es waren ganze Gestal?ten?kn?uel, K?rper, aus denen K?pfe ?ber K?pfe, Arme ?ber Arme hervor?quollen, Mengen von H?nden, die Mengen von Attributen, Keulen und Lotusblumen halten: ?berall ?ppige und d?stere, grandiose Poesie, ?berf?lle und ver?schwommene Formlosigkeit: Ein b?ses Verh?ngnis f?r die bildende Kunst.?) > [A pedantic correction: We met in Berlin on one or two occasions, and I > remember them as rather pleasant.] > > > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > > ________________________________ > > Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE > Gesendet: Sa 14.03.2009 23:47 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers > > > > I guess I was wrong; unfortunately, not everybody had enough of this. > So here we go for one more round, hopefully the last. I apologize for > responding a bit late; I was busy during the last few days. > > Dr. Gruenendahl is right. Two times are not enough to establish a > pattern. Perhaps next time he will side with me against a point made > by Prof. Slaje, but I somehow doubt it. > > What I object to, of course, is not the fact that he takes sides in a > discussion, but to his aggressive manner, malicious distortion of what > I said, his use of ad hominem arguments, and cheap psychological > analysis of the type ?Franco writes because he wants to draw attention > to himself, undeserved attention.? In the same vein I could say, e.g., > ?Gruenendahl?s offensiveness is only due to some personal frustration, > deserved frustration.? However, I do not want to regress to > Kindergarten level. > > Some of you have voiced the concern that the list has become a place > for personal and private battles. I can assure you that there was > absolutely nothing personal in my remark about the Glasenapp > Foundation. Furthermore, Dr. Gruenendahl and I do not know each other; > at least I do not remember ever meeting him. > > Further, I do not think that Dr. Gruenendahl *purposefully* distorts > what I said, but that his vision is blurred by some agenda. The same > kind of distortion, at times even spiteful criticism he displays in > some of his published work, notably in his attempt to exonerate German > Indology from the charge of having been affiliated with National > Socialism. There was a discussion about this last year on the list. > > With best wishes, > Eli Franco > > Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure >> >>> everybody had enough of this by now. >> >> >> >> Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. >> >> I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. > As >> I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so >> much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his >> forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement > with >> Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its >> decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why he >> would rather not discuss it in public. >> >> So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider Professor >> Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that is >> presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal >> interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at > least >> one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the > "whenever"-pattern >> insinuated in his remark. >> >> Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: > "I >> have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure >> everyone had enough of it." >> >> Reinhold Gr?nendahl >> >> ***************************************** >> >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate >> >>> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. >> >>> Best wishes >> >>> EF >> >> >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Mar 17 16:08:22 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 09 17:08:22 +0100 Subject: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: <8BC98CEEFF7142C1BE592127FAF386DE@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227085386.23782.16937519229039698184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr van Bijlert, May I draw your attention to my posting of yesterday, in which I asked all members of this forum to refrain from discussing this topic for at least a week. Possibly you did not see it. I must insist upon this restriction, for the sake of this forum as a useful arena for discussion of academic matters. My posting of yesterday can be checked here: http://tinyurl.com/d7pm52 -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY committee From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Wed Mar 18 10:34:54 2009 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 09 10:34:54 +0000 Subject: Fr John K. Locke, SJ passed away Message-ID: <161227085390.23782.5625582366142277355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As reported by Nepalese media, Father John K. Locke, S, passed away early this morning. He spent almost his whole life in Nepal and will be remembered by all scholars of Nepalese history and culture by his insightful and detailed writings, inter alia the monographs "Karunamaya, the Cult of Avalokiteshvara-Matsyendranath in the Valley of Nepal" and "Buddhist Monasteries of Nepal". Best greetings, Axel Michaels From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 19 03:51:06 2009 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 09 20:51:06 -0700 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <001901c9a826$fefff260$0301a8c0@Simonpoot> Message-ID: <161227085396.23782.7344665678677068111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If you want your work to be accessible to linguistically disjoint audiences, why write it up in just one language? In smaller European countries it is, or at any rate used to be, usual to publish one's work both in English (or German) in an international journal, and locally in the national language. For English-speaking Indologists, the comparable practice would be to publish both an English version in an international journal or book, and a Hindi, Tamil, or Sanskrit version in India. As Jan Houben reported here on March 3, summaries of the talks at the recent Third International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium were made available both in English and in Sanskrit. The traditional philologists and pandits who attended the conference welcomed the Sanskrit version as a step to overcoming the language barrier and establishing mutual understanding with English-speaking Indologists and computational linguists. Paul Kiparsky On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: > On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The more > languages one knows, the better." > > Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective of the > consumer or recipient of texts. Active researchers are also > producers of texts, and must produce them in one language or > another. From this perspective, one's work will be inaccessible to > those who lack facility with the language in which it is presented; > and the choice of language is therefore a choice of audience. > > On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing source of > embarrassment and bemusement to myself and many of my > contemporaries that the journals and publishers we have been led to > believe are most highly esteemed by our institutional elders (in > whose hands our careers lie) tend to be those which most of our > desired audience cannot access. One cannot but suppose that, as a > result, most of the discourse that there is on indological subjects > occurs in contexts systematically ignorant of certain recent > discoveries in indology. > > The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been funding a > higher and higher fraction of British indological research in > recent years. My perception is that the AHRC are increasingly > concerned to ensure that the projects they fund have outputs > accessible beyond the university sector. Perhaps, then, pretty > soon, projects whose principal written outputs are not to be made > freely available online will simply not be publicly funded. > > Simon Brodbeck > Cardiff University From brodbecksp at CF.AC.UK Thu Mar 19 00:09:38 2009 From: brodbecksp at CF.AC.UK (Simon Brodbeck) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 00:09:38 +0000 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085393.23782.7612264455852030418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The more languages one knows, the better." Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective of the consumer or recipient of texts. Active researchers are also producers of texts, and must produce them in one language or another. From this perspective, one's work will be inaccessible to those who lack facility with the language in which it is presented; and the choice of language is therefore a choice of audience. On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing source of embarrassment and bemusement to myself and many of my contemporaries that the journals and publishers we have been led to believe are most highly esteemed by our institutional elders (in whose hands our careers lie) tend to be those which most of our desired audience cannot access. One cannot but suppose that, as a result, most of the discourse that there is on indological subjects occurs in contexts systematically ignorant of certain recent discoveries in indology. The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been funding a higher and higher fraction of British indological research in recent years. My perception is that the AHRC are increasingly concerned to ensure that the projects they fund have outputs accessible beyond the university sector. Perhaps, then, pretty soon, projects whose principal written outputs are not to be made freely available online will simply not be publicly funded. Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University From ocattedra at YAHOO.COM.AR Thu Mar 19 16:26:03 2009 From: ocattedra at YAHOO.COM.AR (olivia cattedra) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 09:26:03 -0700 Subject: about Sanatsujata in spanish Message-ID: <161227085451.23782.18069121788287306968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear Colleagues Please, I would like to know if there is some other translation of the Sanatsujatiya in spanish, besides the one I published in 2007 in Buenos Aires, thank you very much, Prof. Olivia Cattedra FASTA - Argentina Yahoo! Cocina Recetas pr?cticas y comida saludable http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ From mnstorm at MAC.COM Thu Mar 19 05:02:49 2009 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 10:32:49 +0530 Subject: Bangles Message-ID: <161227085400.23782.1292912477919479482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I am writing on behalf of a student who is doing a research project on the place of bangles in Indian society. She is looking at images (plenty, not a problem!) and she is also searching for poetic references (not so successful). I hope that one of you could offer up some possible poetic references. I can only think of the poem by Sarojini Naidu. Any help would be most appreciated. Thank you so much for your thoughts! Mary Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director North India Arts and Culture and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for International Training www.sit.edu Mobile +91 98106 98003 F-301 Lado Sarai 2nd Fl New Delhi 110030 India From brendan.gillon at MCGILL.CA Thu Mar 19 15:17:35 2009 From: brendan.gillon at MCGILL.CA (Brendan Gillon) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 11:17:35 -0400 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: <20090319150915.A45ABBBC022@asmx5.McGill.CA> Message-ID: <161227085433.23782.17950609330706720270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I am hoping that someone might be able to direct me to a source which might give me a rough idea of the comparison of the classical heritage of India versus the classical heritage of Europe from Greece and Rome. What I have in mind is something like a first order approximation of the relative sizes of the literature, the manuscripts and their cataloging. Clearly, this must be done for some arbitrarily chosen cut off date. Best wishes, Brendan Gillon -- Brendan S. Gillon email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca Department of Linguistics McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088 H3A 1A7 CANADA webpage: http://www.mcgill.ca/linguistics/people/gillon/ From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Mar 19 16:29:17 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 11:29:17 -0500 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085454.23782.11867404163113472840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One might also mention the Tibetan tradition that Sa skya Pa.n.dita's (1182-1251) great pramaa.na work, the Tshad ma rigs gter (Pramaa.nayukanidhi), was translated into Sanskrit, though, as with the Daodejing, there is no surviving evidence. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI Thu Mar 19 09:49:18 2009 From: asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 11:49:18 +0200 Subject: Bangles In-Reply-To: <6D4A4C70-6C88-4D01-AE7D-E8B1B04E4556@mac.com> Message-ID: <161227085407.23782.2053132802360178194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Harappan and later Indian bangle cult see my book "Deciphering the Indus script" (Cambridge UP 1994), p. 225ff. With best wishes, Asko Parpola Professor emeritus of Indology University of Helsinki Quoting "Mary Storm" : > Dear Indologists, > > I am writing on behalf of a student who is doing a research project > on the place of bangles in Indian society. She is looking at images > (plenty, not a problem!) and she is also searching for poetic > references (not so successful). I hope that one of you could offer > up some possible poetic references. I can only think of the poem by > Sarojini Naidu. > > Any help would be most appreciated. > > Thank you so much for your thoughts! > > Mary > > > Mary Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director > North India Arts and Culture > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > School for International Training > www.sit.edu > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > F-301 Lado Sarai > 2nd Fl > New Delhi 110030 India > > From toke_knudsen at MAC.COM Thu Mar 19 17:22:10 2009 From: toke_knudsen at MAC.COM (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 13:22:10 -0400 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085466.23782.5613519741173792314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mar 19, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Further to Richard's comments, I heard David Pingree say in > conversation that there might be 30 million Sanskrit manuscripts in > the world today, if one took into account all the MSS in private > collections. Unfortunately, I never asked him how he got that > figure (did anyone else hear this estimate from him?). I heard that figure from him as well. In fact, he put it in writing once in a personal letter to me. Unfortunately, I don't know where he got that figure from either. Sincerely, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen From sellmers at GMX.DE Thu Mar 19 12:23:47 2009 From: sellmers at GMX.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 13:23:47 +0100 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085414.23782.4626579440184728454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I would be curious to learn about the earliest translations into Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the full sense). Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Thu Mar 19 12:25:39 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 13:25:39 +0100 Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <965fdc5f0903190147k465eae67p301d2276bdba600e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227085417.23782.16255106296829666257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As a contribution to the debate, I would like to mention another parameter, namely the legal constraints that vary from country to country. It is (in normal conditions) against the law to write a Ph.D. thesis in English if you study at a French university. See the following link: where you will find the "Article 11", of the "LOI n? 94-665 du 4 ao?t 1994 relative ? l'emploi de la langue fran?aise" (known as "Loi Toubon") which says: "La langue de l'enseignement, des examens et concours, ainsi que des th?ses et m?moires dans les ?tablissements publics et priv?s d'enseignement est le fran?ais, sauf exceptions justifi?es par les n?cessit?s de l'enseignement des langues et cultures r?gionales ou ?trang?res ou lorsque les enseignants sont des professeurs associ?s ou invit?s ?trangers." I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written in English, but I would like to have confirmation of that fact. I am under the impression that in Italy, a Ph.D. thesis must be in italian. What is the situation in India? Is it possible to write a Ph.D. thesis in Sanskrit? The consequence of the French legal constraints is that a French Ph.D. thesis in the field of Indology has to be translated into English before it can hope to reach an international audience (and translation into Sanskrit, or Tamil, can probably only be viewed as a third step). Of course, there are people in France who realize that this situation is problematic, but there are other people who fight strongly against any change. -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot Paris 7) veeranarayana Pandurangi a ?crit : > Certainly, I welcome prof. Kiparsky's suggestion. > > It is what suggested by me there in hyderabad seminar. What I pointed is > that Prof. Kiparsky, prof. Houben, prof. Stall and very few others have > contributed very much grammatical tradition of panini, on the subject that > prof. Houben spoke there. But most of these researches are in english, which > is mostly onknown to most of the very good traditional Samskrita scholars > who fortunatley still are keeping alive the panini's tradition. simlar is > the case of other shastras still rigorously studied in India, Nyaya, > Vyakarana, Mimamsa, Vedanta, Sahitya. [...] > > > Hence those writing in socalled international language i.e. English should > also publish in samskrita (not sanskrit) and technical language that > includes and that is original to paninian tradition, then the intended > result can be acheived. people should be made aware of these things. Many of > you may know oldtimer pandita manners very well while visiting india. > > [....] > > Similarly people should practice writing in sanskrit. Sure I know that will > have their no impact on their career in US universities and elsewhere, but > then english writing will have no result though writer may become profesor. > > I dont say it is solely the fault of people writing in english or language > itself, the sin is shared by Pandits also by not responding to these > writngs. but then there come all the barriers. we have a strike a balance to > overcome it. By writing in Samskrita one will only contribute more to > language he studies, and nothing udesired thing will happen. > > This is what I spoke in Hyderabad. > > It is upto the scholars to workout. > veeranarayana > > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Paul Kiparsky > wrote: > > >> If you want your work to be accessible to linguistically disjoint >> audiences, why write it up in just one language? In smaller European >> countries it is, or at any rate used to be, usual to publish one's work both >> in English (or German) in an international journal, and locally in the >> national language. For English-speaking Indologists, the comparable >> practice would be to publish both an English version in an international >> journal or book, and a Hindi, Tamil, or Sanskrit version in India. As Jan >> Houben reported here on March 3, summaries of the talks at the recent Third >> International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium were made >> available both in English and in Sanskrit. The traditional philologists and >> pandits who attended the conference welcomed the Sanskrit version as a step >> to overcoming the language barrier and establishing mutual understanding >> with English-speaking Indologists and computational linguists. >> >> Paul Kiparsky >> >> >> >> On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: >> >> On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The more languages one >> >>> knows, the better." >>> >>> Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective of the consumer or >>> recipient of texts. Active researchers are also producers of texts, and must >>> produce them in one language or another. From this perspective, one's work >>> will be inaccessible to those who lack facility with the language in which >>> it is presented; and the choice of language is therefore a choice of >>> audience. >>> >>> On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing source of >>> embarrassment and bemusement to myself and many of my contemporaries that >>> the journals and publishers we have been led to believe are most highly >>> esteemed by our institutional elders (in whose hands our careers lie) tend >>> to be those which most of our desired audience cannot access. One cannot but >>> suppose that, as a result, most of the discourse that there is on >>> indological subjects occurs in contexts systematically ignorant of certain >>> recent discoveries in indology. >>> >>> The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been funding a higher and >>> higher fraction of British indological research in recent years. My >>> perception is that the AHRC are increasingly concerned to ensure that the >>> projects they fund have outputs accessible beyond the university sector. >>> Perhaps, then, pretty soon, projects whose principal written outputs are not >>> to be made freely available online will simply not be publicly funded. >>> >>> Simon Brodbeck >>> Cardiff University >>> >>> > > > From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Thu Mar 19 08:47:17 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 14:17:17 +0530 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085403.23782.963061868516744149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Certainly, I welcome prof. Kiparsky's suggestion. It is what suggested by me there in hyderabad seminar. What I pointed is that Prof. Kiparsky, prof. Houben, prof. Stall and very few others have contributed very much grammatical tradition of panini, on the subject that prof. Houben spoke there. But most of these researches are in english, which is mostly onknown to most of the very good traditional Samskrita scholars who fortunatley still are keeping alive the panini's tradition. simlar is the case of other shastras still rigorously studied in India, Nyaya, Vyakarana, Mimamsa, Vedanta, Sahitya. How many peple have studied Prof. Gershheimer's shaktivada translation in french? who has reveiwed it? what about Wada's tranlsation of siddhantalakshana? what about Ingalls' Vyaptipacaka? many more cases are there. Unless many of these people accept or atleast discuss what Prof. Kiparsky or some other has said, how it can be a siddhanta? or what result it will produce? since there are very few schloars in west who understand all these intricate issues; may be 10-15. I may also be wrong, but considering the recent paninian and Nyaya bibliography it seems to be true. People should be allowed to know what you have written. *Hence the fact remains that Prof. Kiparsky is still unknown to Paninians. and similarly if somebody criticises Kiparsky in sanskrit thesis *(*It happened with a student who worked under Prof. KV Ramakrishnamacharyulu on his Ph.D, and it happened only because of Prof. KV Ramakrishnamacharyulu*) kiparsky does not come to know it. *This is the barrier*. Many of the recent samskrita works still not catalogued in even Karl potter bibliography. what this means?. it may be a fault of indian people not to have catalogued it. but then what Karl potter bibliography is doing? no samskrita papers published in the journals of samskrita universities are valued catalogued there. This is the communication gap. Hence those writing in socalled international language i.e. English should also publish in samskrita (not sanskrit) and technical language that includes and that is original to paninian tradition, then the intended result can be acheived. people should be made aware of these things. Many of you may know oldtimer pandita manners very well while visiting india. That was what planned and executed, once in 1983, by prof. Dayakrishna when the russlian theory of preposition was traslated into sanskrit and sent to many repute scholars including Prof. Badarinatha Shukla et all, well in advance, and then make them discuss that thing. Outcome is published in "Samvada" ICPR, 1991. That is how Dayakrishan became aware of the indian naiyayika tradition and tried to do something for that. Similarly people should practice writing in sanskrit. Sure I know that will have their no impact on their career in US universities and elsewhere, but then english writing will have no result though writer may become profesor. I dont say it is solely the fault of people writing in english or language itself, the sin is shared by Pandits also by not responding to these writngs. but then there come all the barriers. we have a strike a balance to overcome it. By writing in Samskrita one will only contribute more to language he studies, and nothing udesired thing will happen. This is what I spoke in Hyderabad. It is upto the scholars to workout. veeranarayana On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Paul Kiparsky wrote: > If you want your work to be accessible to linguistically disjoint > audiences, why write it up in just one language? In smaller European > countries it is, or at any rate used to be, usual to publish one's work both > in English (or German) in an international journal, and locally in the > national language. For English-speaking Indologists, the comparable > practice would be to publish both an English version in an international > journal or book, and a Hindi, Tamil, or Sanskrit version in India. As Jan > Houben reported here on March 3, summaries of the talks at the recent Third > International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium were made > available both in English and in Sanskrit. The traditional philologists and > pandits who attended the conference welcomed the Sanskrit version as a step > to overcoming the language barrier and establishing mutual understanding > with English-speaking Indologists and computational linguists. > > Paul Kiparsky > > > > On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: > > On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The more languages one >> knows, the better." >> >> Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective of the consumer or >> recipient of texts. Active researchers are also producers of texts, and must >> produce them in one language or another. From this perspective, one's work >> will be inaccessible to those who lack facility with the language in which >> it is presented; and the choice of language is therefore a choice of >> audience. >> >> On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing source of >> embarrassment and bemusement to myself and many of my contemporaries that >> the journals and publishers we have been led to believe are most highly >> esteemed by our institutional elders (in whose hands our careers lie) tend >> to be those which most of our desired audience cannot access. One cannot but >> suppose that, as a result, most of the discourse that there is on >> indological subjects occurs in contexts systematically ignorant of certain >> recent discoveries in indology. >> >> The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been funding a higher and >> higher fraction of British indological research in recent years. My >> perception is that the AHRC are increasingly concerned to ensure that the >> projects they fund have outputs accessible beyond the university sector. >> Perhaps, then, pretty soon, projects whose principal written outputs are not >> to be made freely available online will simply not be publicly funded. >> >> Simon Brodbeck >> Cardiff University >> > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From avandergeer at PLANET.NL Thu Mar 19 13:37:44 2009 From: avandergeer at PLANET.NL (Alexandra Vandergeer) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 14:37:44 +0100 Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085424.23782.7728230498361192140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Same is valid for Greek universities: PhD theses should be written in Greek. There is, however, a change, it is under certain circumstances allowed to write in English (but with permission from all committee members, so forget it). Alexandra ________________________________ Van: Indology namens Jean-Luc Chevillard Verzonden: do 19-3-2009 14:25 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers As a contribution to the debate, I would like to mention another parameter, namely the legal constraints that vary from country to country. It is (in normal conditions) against the law to write a Ph.D. thesis in English if you study at a French university. See the following link: where you will find the "Article 11", of the "LOI n? 94-665 du 4 ao?t 1994 relative ? l'emploi de la langue fran?aise" (known as "Loi Toubon") which says: "La langue de l'enseignement, des examens et concours, ainsi que des th?ses et m?moires dans les ?tablissements publics et priv?s d'enseignement est le fran?ais, sauf exceptions justifi?es par les n?cessit?s de l'enseignement des langues et cultures r?gionales ou ?trang?res ou lorsque les enseignants sont des professeurs associ?s ou invit?s ?trangers." I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written in English, but I would like to have confirmation of that fact. I am under the impression that in Italy, a Ph.D. thesis must be in italian. What is the situation in India? Is it possible to write a Ph.D. thesis in Sanskrit? The consequence of the French legal constraints is that a French Ph.D. thesis in the field of Indology has to be translated into English before it can hope to reach an international audience (and translation into Sanskrit, or Tamil, can probably only be viewed as a third step). Of course, there are people in France who realize that this situation is problematic, but there are other people who fight strongly against any change. -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot Paris 7) veeranarayana Pandurangi a ?crit : > Certainly, I welcome prof. Kiparsky's suggestion. > > It is what suggested by me there in hyderabad seminar. What I pointed is > that Prof. Kiparsky, prof. Houben, prof. Stall and very few others have > contributed very much grammatical tradition of panini, on the subject that > prof. Houben spoke there. But most of these researches are in english, which > is mostly onknown to most of the very good traditional Samskrita scholars > who fortunatley still are keeping alive the panini's tradition. simlar is > the case of other shastras still rigorously studied in India, Nyaya, > Vyakarana, Mimamsa, Vedanta, Sahitya. [...] > > > Hence those writing in socalled international language i.e. English should > also publish in samskrita (not sanskrit) and technical language that > includes and that is original to paninian tradition, then the intended > result can be acheived. people should be made aware of these things. Many of > you may know oldtimer pandita manners very well while visiting india. > > [....] > > Similarly people should practice writing in sanskrit. Sure I know that will > have their no impact on their career in US universities and elsewhere, but > then english writing will have no result though writer may become profesor. > > I dont say it is solely the fault of people writing in english or language > itself, the sin is shared by Pandits also by not responding to these > writngs. but then there come all the barriers. we have a strike a balance to > overcome it. By writing in Samskrita one will only contribute more to > language he studies, and nothing udesired thing will happen. > > This is what I spoke in Hyderabad. > > It is upto the scholars to workout. > veeranarayana > > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Paul Kiparsky > wrote: > > >> If you want your work to be accessible to linguistically disjoint >> audiences, why write it up in just one language? In smaller European >> countries it is, or at any rate used to be, usual to publish one's work both >> in English (or German) in an international journal, and locally in the >> national language. For English-speaking Indologists, the comparable >> practice would be to publish both an English version in an international >> journal or book, and a Hindi, Tamil, or Sanskrit version in India. As Jan >> Houben reported here on March 3, summaries of the talks at the recent Third >> International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium were made >> available both in English and in Sanskrit. The traditional philologists and >> pandits who attended the conference welcomed the Sanskrit version as a step >> to overcoming the language barrier and establishing mutual understanding >> with English-speaking Indologists and computational linguists. >> >> Paul Kiparsky >> >> >> >> On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: >> >> On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The more languages one >> >>> knows, the better." >>> >>> Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective of the consumer or >>> recipient of texts. Active researchers are also producers of texts, and must >>> produce them in one language or another. From this perspective, one's work >>> will be inaccessible to those who lack facility with the language in which >>> it is presented; and the choice of language is therefore a choice of >>> audience. >>> >>> On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing source of >>> embarrassment and bemusement to myself and many of my contemporaries that >>> the journals and publishers we have been led to believe are most highly >>> esteemed by our institutional elders (in whose hands our careers lie) tend >>> to be those which most of our desired audience cannot access. One cannot but >>> suppose that, as a result, most of the discourse that there is on >>> indological subjects occurs in contexts systematically ignorant of certain >>> recent discoveries in indology. >>> >>> The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been funding a higher and >>> higher fraction of British indological research in recent years. My >>> perception is that the AHRC are increasingly concerned to ensure that the >>> projects they fund have outputs accessible beyond the university sector. >>> Perhaps, then, pretty soon, projects whose principal written outputs are not >>> to be made freely available online will simply not be publicly funded. >>> >>> Simon Brodbeck >>> Cardiff University >>> >>> > > > From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Thu Mar 19 15:29:51 2009 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 15:29:51 +0000 Subject: Scholarships Message-ID: <161227085440.23782.8660526458868775159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A new Round of Applications for 16 Scholarships in the PhD/Doctoral Programmes of the Graduate Programm of Transcultural Studies (GPTS) of the Excellence Cluster "Asia and Europe in a Global Context" at tHeidelberg University has been opened. The Scholarships will start in the Winter Term 2009/2010. Students of Indology with a transcultural interest are also invited to apply. You are asked to register before you can fill in the application form. Only applications submitted via the online application system will be considered. Applications by mail or e-mail will not be eligible. Deadline for Application is May 1st 2009. For further information see: http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/Plone/graduate-programme Kindly forward this information to students who are qualified and interested. Best greetings, Axel Michaels From richard.gombrich at BALLIOL.OX.AC.UK Thu Mar 19 15:38:16 2009 From: richard.gombrich at BALLIOL.OX.AC.UK (Richard Gombrich) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 15:38:16 +0000 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085446.23782.130410174115443944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I remember that the late Prof. David Pingree once said to me in conversation that there were about 30,000 surviving mss of ancient Greek, a smaller number of Latin, and several million of Sanskrit. The trouble is, of course, that one is never comparing like with like. Almost all the surviving Sanskrit mss have been produced within the last millennium; the vast majority, indeed, within the last half millennium. The production of mss in Latin and Greek was coming to an end 500 years ago, and I believe that virtually no texts physically survive from classical antiquity. Inscriptions of course are negligible in physical quantity compared to the kind of texts I mean. If we are talking of surviving texts rather than physical survivals, Julius Caesar, by burning the library of Alexandria, deprived us of a large part of our potential classical heritage. Even so, I fancy that the bulk of surviving Sanskrit texts would be far larger than the bulk of Latin and Greek texts combined, including those we know to be lost. True, much depends on the cutoff date you choose for Sanskrit. However, Vedic and Epic literature alone, before we even get to what we normally think of as Sanskrit classical literature, are of formidable size. Richard Gombrich On 19 Mar 2009, at 15:17, Brendan Gillon wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I am hoping that someone might be able to direct me to a source > which might give me a rough idea of the comparison of the classical > heritage of India versus the classical heritage of Europe from > Greece and Rome. What I have in mind is something like a first order > approximation of the relative sizes of the literature, the > manuscripts and their cataloging. Clearly, this must be done for > some arbitrarily chosen cut off date. > > Best wishes, > > Brendan Gillon > > > -- > > Brendan S. Gillon email: > brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca > Department of Linguistics > McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868 > 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield > Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088 H3A > 1A7 CANADA > > webpage: http://www.mcgill.ca/linguistics/people/gillon/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 19 14:51:56 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 15:51:56 +0100 Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <49C239C3.9060604@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227085427.23782.2645272118173716689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written in English, but I > would like to have confirmation of that fact. I think different German universities have different regulations, but at the Univ. of Bonn, it is certainly permissible to submit a PhD in English or German. Or Latin, still, I believe. But not Sanskrit. :-) Dominik Wujastyk From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO Thu Mar 19 15:07:47 2009 From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 16:07:47 +0100 Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085430.23782.18317821732883221530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A large number of Norwegian doctoral theses and scholarly papers are written in English as a matter of course. Now exhortations are handed out to use Norwegian, so that Norwegian should not wither and die as a language for academic purposes. A pretty hopeless proposition, by the way, since most people outside Scandinavia are unable to read Norwegian. Best regards Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Dominik Wujastyk > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 3:52 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: > Language barriers --- financial barriers > > > I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written > in English, > > but I would like to have confirmation of that fact. > > I think different German universities have different > regulations, but at the Univ. of Bonn, it is certainly > permissible to submit a PhD in English or German. Or Latin, > still, I believe. > > But not Sanskrit. :-) > > > Dominik Wujastyk From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 19 15:28:32 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 16:28:32 +0100 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <68117990-EA1E-4729-B80E-23E7D253A8A9@gmx.de> Message-ID: <161227085437.23782.12445631456126139160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samr?? Jagann?tha translated Euclid into Sanskrit at the court of Jayasi?ha (1688-1743). Ed by Kamal??a?kara Pr??a?a?kara Trived?, Bombay: Nir?asas?gara Press, 1901. It was the Nasir ad-Din al-Tusi's Arabic tr. of Euclid that was translated, not the original Greek. Michael Dodson has written a good article on Ballantyne's 19th century efforts in Benares to present European science of the time in Sanskrit treatises. He and his pandits produced treatises for example on chemistry, the moon, and other topics. See http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=100309 Lancelot Wilkinson and his pandit Bapu Deva Sastri too worked on translating Arabic and European astronomical treatises into Sanskrit. See Minikowski's paper in Michaels' book The Pandit (http://books.google.com/books?id=0TtuAAAAMAAJ&pgis=1) and other papers. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Sven Sellmer wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed that > this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is anybody aware > of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I would be curious to > learn about the earliest translations into Sanskrit of texts originally > composed in languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I > would consider translations in the full sense). > > Best wishes, > Sven Sellmer > > ************************************ > Dr. Sven Sellmer > Adam Mickiewicz University > Institute of Oriental Studies > South Asia Unit > ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 > 61-485 Pozna? > POLAND > sven at amu.edu.pl From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 19 15:32:55 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 16:32:55 +0100 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085443.23782.11775525739331463527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Brendan, It's not exactly what you ask, but a little while ago I was thinking quantitively about this too, and came up with the estimate that the Sanskrit knowledge formation (need a better term) is the product of approximately 100 generations of brahmana families. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Brendan Gillon wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I am hoping that someone might be able to direct me to a source which might > give me a rough idea of the comparison of the classical heritage of India > versus the classical heritage of Europe from Greece and Rome. What I have in > mind is something like a first order approximation of the relative sizes of > the literature, the manuscripts and their cataloging. Clearly, this must be > done for some arbitrarily chosen cut off date. > > Best wishes, > > Brendan Gillon > > > > From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Thu Mar 19 16:23:44 2009 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 17:23:44 +0100 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <68117990-EA1E-4729-B80E-23E7D253A8A9@gmx.de> Message-ID: <161227085448.23782.8935557169142991074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am Donnerstag, den 19.03.2009, 13:23 +0100 schrieb Sven Sellmer: > lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed > that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is > anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I > would be curious to learn about the earliest translations into > Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle > Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the > full sense). There is a legend that the Daode jing (or Tao te king if you like) has been translated into Sanskrit. The legend is found in a 7th century Buddhist compilation (Ji gujin fodao lunheng, Taisho Nr. 2104). See Paul Pelliot: "Autour d'une traduction sanscrite to Tao-t? king". In: T'oung Pao 13 (1912), p. 351-430 (esp. p. 381 seqq.). It is said that the king of Kamarupa asked the Chinese traveller Li Yibiao to translate Laozi's work. According to the mentioned work (Ji gujin fodao lunheng), a committee of Daoist and Buddhist scholars with Xuanzang as one its prominent members came together to execute this task. Of course, nothing of this kind survived. Perhaps the Samudrasangama belongs here, too. This is the Sanskrit version of Dara Shukoh's Majma ul-Bahrain (written in Persian). It is said to be composed in Sanskrit by the author himself in 1657, the same year when the Persian original came out. See e.g. Roma Chaudhuri: A critical study of Dara Shikuh's Samudra-Sangama. Vol. 1. Calcutta 1954 (vol. 2 contains the text edition by Jatindra Bimal Chaudhuri). Hope it helps Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Thu Mar 19 12:09:44 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 17:39:44 +0530 Subject: clinking, silent and slipping bangles In-Reply-To: <6D4A4C70-6C88-4D01-AE7D-E8B1B04E4556@mac.com> Message-ID: <161227085410.23782.3024059888185876251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As with images of bangles, there must be hundreds of literary passages to which one could refer. But does "bangle" in this project include all the various ornaments that can be worn on an arm or a leg (keyuura, valaya, a"ngada, nuupura, parihaa.taka, ma~njiira, ka.taka, ka"nka.na, etc.) and all their various associations ? Hearing the delicious clinking of bangles is clearly widely regarded as a very high pleasure, as, for instance, this verse of the Vairaagya"sataka attests. agre giita.m sarasakavaya.h paar"svayor daak.si.naatyaa.h pa"scaal liilaavalayara.nita.m caamaragraahi.niinaam| yady astv eva.m kuru bhavarasaasvaadane lampa.tatva.m no cec ceta.h pravi"sa sahasaa nirvikalpe samaadhau|| And such clinking is very often erotic ("S.r"ngaara"sataka): etaa"s caladvalayasa.mhatimekhalotthajha.mkaaranuupuraparaajitaraajaha.msya.h| kurvanti kasya na mano viva"sa.m taru.nyo vitrastamugdhahari.niisad.r"sai.h ka.taak.sai.h|| Conversely, when bangles fall off and are silent, this can be full of poignant sadness (e.g. Siitaa's anklet in the Raghuvam"sa (13.23)): e.saa sthalii yatra vicinvataa tvaa.m bhra.s.ta.m mayaa nuupuram ekam uurvyaam| ad.r"syata tvaccara.naaravindavi"sle.sadu.hkhaad iva baddhamaunam And when they slip off this is likely to be a symptom of emaciation, often the fifth stage of love (smarada"saa). I wonder whether this last topos of bangles slipping off women and men as a result of love first appears in Old Tamil poetry or in Sanskrit. The following verse of Kaalidaasa (in act 3 of "Sakuntalaa) describes King Du.syanta: idam a"si"sirair antastaapaad vivar.nama.niik.rtam ni"si ni"si bhujanyastaapaa"ngaprasaaribhir a"srubhi.h| anabhilulitajyaaghaataa"nka.m muhur ma.nibandhanaat kanakavalaya.m srasta.m srasta.m mayaa pratisaaryate|| But when does that topos first make its appearance in Sanskrit literature? Dominic Goodall Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient ("French School of Asian Studies"), Pondicherry On 19 Mar 2009, at 10:32, Mary Storm wrote: > Dear Indologists, > > I am writing on behalf of a student who is doing a research project > on the place of bangles in Indian society. She is looking at images > (plenty, not a problem!) and she is also searching for poetic > references (not so successful). I hope that one of you could offer > up some possible poetic references. I can only think of the poem by > Sarojini Naidu. > > Any help would be most appreciated. > > Thank you so much for your thoughts! > > Mary > > > Mary Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director > North India Arts and Culture > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > School for International Training > www.sit.edu > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > F-301 Lado Sarai > 2nd Fl > New Delhi 110030 India From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 19 16:56:07 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 17:56:07 +0100 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085456.23782.16758532100688770556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Further to Richard's comments, I heard David Pingree say in conversation that there might be 30 million Sanskrit manuscripts in the world today, if one took into account all the MSS in private collections. Unfortunately, I never asked him how he got that figure (did anyone else hear this estimate from him?). The National Mission for Manuscripts (http://www.namami.org/) works with a figure of seven million, if I remember correctly. NAMAMI has conducted surveys, the results of which are here: http://www.namami.org/nationalsurvey.htm I find the results raise questions for me: the numbers of MSS seem rather low. Maybe they are only looking at non-library repositories? There are other questions: In 2004-5, in Bihar, Orissa and UP, 650,000 manuscripts were documented in about 35,000 repositories. That means each repository had 18.6 MSS. Nobody has that few MSS. If you walk into almost any brahman home, there's an almira somewhere that's packed with MSS. I would estimate 100-500 MSS is typical of a domestic collection, with numbers easily rising to a couple of thousand. For example, during a visit to the Alwar branch of the RORI a few years ago, I took some notes about donated MS acquisitions added subsequent to the Maharaja's palace collection: Donor Number of MSS Pt Poorna Malji 200 Pt Laxmi Kantji 200 Pt Ram Dattaji 335 Sarvashir Pt Pitamer Das 60 Nandan Lalji Misra 42 Ramesh Chandraji Bhargava 144 Thakur Chiddu Singh 59 Shankar Lalji 104 Pyare Lalji Sharma 5 Amarnathji Sarasvat 166 Pt Shiv Dattaji 500 The Peterson catalogue lists 2478 MSS in 1892; by 1985 there were 6711 MSS, of which 1687 were by donation by the above-listed gentlemen. Again, there are lots of open questions here. What is the demographic of pandits or families willing to donate their MSS to RORI? What are the social pressures to do so, or not to do so? Is it meritorious? Is it more meritorious to throw MSS into a river (as documented by Prof. KT Pandurangi in his 1978 booklet "The Wealth of Sanskrit Manuscripts in India and Abroad" (http://books.google.nl/books?id=ahZ2AAAAIAAJ). Are there large, undonated collections? One valuable policy of the RORI branches is that they put the name of the donor pandit on a large label on top of the almira with his MSS. A sense of identity, continuity and family pride is preserved in this way. It might seem a small thing, but it's important. Final point for now: rough calculations based on collection-wide statistics for MS corpora such as those documented in VOHD show that MSS having dated colophons number about 15% of a typical collection, and that THE MEDIAN DATE FOR SURVIVING SANSKRIT MSS IS 1830 I've shouted that statement because it is so extraordinary. It is explicable as the result of two historical facts. First, the destruction of MSS preceding this date. (Pingree, again, said that a paper Sanskrit MS physically lasted about 200 years.) Second, the advent of widespread printing in the second half of the nineteenth century, leading to the demise of the scribal profession. If Pingree's 200 year figure is roughly right, the majority of surviving paper Skt MSS have about 20 years left before disappearing just from old age. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk From donovevs at LIBERO.IT Thu Mar 19 16:57:31 2009 From: donovevs at LIBERO.IT (donovevs@libero.it) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 17:57:31 +0100 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085459.23782.339044976034846078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Raajavyavahaarakoza is a lexicon of Sanskrit equivalents to (mostly) Persian administrative terms; it was prepared on Shivaji?s behalf by Raghunaatha (ca. 1676). Regards, Svevo D?Onofrio Department of Linguistic and Oriental Studies University of Bologna (Italy) On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Sven Sellmer wrote: Dear Colleagues, lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I would be curious to learn about the earliest translations into Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the full sense). Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK Thu Mar 19 17:57:39 2009 From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 17:57:39 +0000 Subject: Translations from Tamil into Sanskrit (Re: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <49C27BE7.10803@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227085468.23782.2543586022141197330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've been told that the Tamil Periyapuraa.nam of Ceekki_laar (ca. 1140 CE) was translated into Sanskrit as the "Sivabhaktavilaasa, attributed to the sage Upamanyu and assigned a locus of attribution in the Skandapuraa.na. A brief look in some library catalogues (SOAS, Chicago, BL) didn't turn up any references to this text, but there is a Telugu translation (as the "Srii"sivebhaktavilaasamu, the details available at the URL pasted below). http://libcat.uchicago.edu/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=12374I4M28801.170989&profile=ucpublic&uri=full=3100001~!6161913~!8&ri=5&aspect=subtab13&menu=search&source=~!horizon Also, R. Vijayalakshmy established some years ago that the Tamil Ciivakacintaama.ni served as the basis of a Sanskrit version of the story of the Jaina kaamadeva Jiivandhara and not the other way around, as had previously been thought. The details of this Sanskrit text aren't coming to me at the moment; see her 1981 publication A Study of the Ciivakacintaama.ni (Ahmedabad: L.D. Institute of Indology). Whitney Cox 2009/3/19 Jean-Luc Chevillard : > If you are interested in translations from Tamil into Sanskrit, > you can have a look at the following book: > > /Un texte tamoul de d?votion vishnouite: le Tirupp?vai d'?????/, Jean > FILLIOZAT, Institut Fran?ais d'Indology, Publication N?45, 1972 > > It contains: > > -- an introduction [pp. vii-xxiii] > > -- a bibliography [pp. xxiv-xxvii] > > -- the (original Tamil) text of the /Tirupp?vai/, along with a French > translation [pp. 2-31] > > -- notes [pp. 33-56] > > -- the TIRUPP?VAI SA?SK?T?NUVY?KHY?NAM (by ?r?ra?gar?m?nujasv?mi) [pp. > 57-67] > > -- a French translation ("Commentaire perp?tuel sanskrit par > ?r?ra?gar?m?nujasv?mi [pp.69-79] > > -- the ?R?VRATA? (TIRUPP?VAI) > > -- a French translation (?R?VRATA, LE VOEU DE FORTUNE) [pp. 87-92] > > -- an INDEX [pp. 93-116] > > In the introduction (p. xxii), Jean Filliozat writes: > "Le /Tirupp?vai/ a ?t? aussi trois fois au moins traduit en sanskrit. ..." > > He then gives details concerning the first 2 translations, included in the > book, and the third one, not included, which exists as a manuscript in the > EFEO library in Pondicherry (n? EFEO 64). > > I should add that the /Tirupp?vai/ is dated by Kamil Zvelebil in the 8th > century. (/Lexicon of Tamil Literature/, Brill, 1995, p. 685) > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard > (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot Paris 7) > > > > Sven Sellmer a ?crit : >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed that >> this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is anybody aware >> of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I would be curious to >> learn about the earliest translations into Sanskrit of texts originally >> composed in languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I >> would consider translations in the full sense). >> >> Best wishes, >> Sven Sellmer >> >> ************************************ >> Dr. Sven Sellmer >> Adam Mickiewicz University >> Institute of Oriental Studies >> South Asia Unit >> ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 >> 61-485 Pozna? >> POLAND >> sven at amu.edu.pl >> > -- Dr. Whitney Cox Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia, School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London WC1H 0XG From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Thu Mar 19 17:07:51 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 18:07:51 +0100 Subject: Translations from Tamil into Sanskrit (Re: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <68117990-EA1E-4729-B80E-23E7D253A8A9@gmx.de> Message-ID: <161227085461.23782.13035677998470705713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If you are interested in translations from Tamil into Sanskrit, you can have a look at the following book: /Un texte tamoul de d?votion vishnouite: le Tirupp?vai d'?????/, Jean FILLIOZAT, Institut Fran?ais d'Indology, Publication N?45, 1972 It contains: -- an introduction [pp. vii-xxiii] -- a bibliography [pp. xxiv-xxvii] -- the (original Tamil) text of the /Tirupp?vai/, along with a French translation [pp. 2-31] -- notes [pp. 33-56] -- the TIRUPP?VAI SA?SK?T?NUVY?KHY?NAM (by ?r?ra?gar?m?nujasv?mi) [pp. 57-67] -- a French translation ("Commentaire perp?tuel sanskrit par ?r?ra?gar?m?nujasv?mi [pp.69-79] -- the ?R?VRATA? (TIRUPP?VAI) -- a French translation (?R?VRATA, LE VOEU DE FORTUNE) [pp. 87-92] -- an INDEX [pp. 93-116] In the introduction (p. xxii), Jean Filliozat writes: "Le /Tirupp?vai/ a ?t? aussi trois fois au moins traduit en sanskrit. ..." He then gives details concerning the first 2 translations, included in the book, and the third one, not included, which exists as a manuscript in the EFEO library in Pondicherry (n? EFEO 64). I should add that the /Tirupp?vai/ is dated by Kamil Zvelebil in the 8th century. (/Lexicon of Tamil Literature/, Brill, 1995, p. 685) -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot Paris 7) Sven Sellmer a ?crit : > Dear Colleagues, > > lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed > that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is > anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I > would be curious to learn about the earliest translations into > Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle > Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the > full sense). > > Best wishes, > Sven Sellmer > > ************************************ > Dr. Sven Sellmer > Adam Mickiewicz University > Institute of Oriental Studies > South Asia Unit > ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 > 61-485 Pozna? > POLAND > sven at amu.edu.pl > From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu Mar 19 17:21:43 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 18:21:43 +0100 Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085464.23782.12681885274654236880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At the University of Leipzig dissertations can be written in all major languages, pending on permission by the faculty, which is almost automatically granted. We had a couple of dissertations in Spanish recently and of course many more in English. The regulations may differ not only from one university to another, but also for different faculties within the same university. There are probably some faculties where one can still submit dissertations in Latin. Best wishes EF Quoting Dominik Wujastyk : >> I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written in >> English, but I would like to have confirmation of that fact. > > I think different German universities have different regulations, > but at the Univ. of Bonn, it is certainly permissible to submit a > PhD in English or German. Or Latin, still, I believe. > > But not Sanskrit. :-) > > > Dominik Wujastyk > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Thu Mar 19 13:21:40 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 18:51:40 +0530 Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <49C239C3.9060604@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227085420.23782.12349506906575521467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Offcourse French language patriotism of French people is well known fact. The situation may be same in other countries. Hence I understand that thing. I acknowledged that even in my first mail that started the debate. But I hope that does not prevent authors of non-doctoral works to writen in samskrita. But In india it is vastly different. earlier the doctoral theses used to be only in English, then they came in other regional languages also. Finally then it is free for all. If somebody is student in Bangalore university (Samskrita dept) he can write in english, Kannada, or Samskrita, but, I think, not in telugu. similarly Rajasthan University allows one write in Hindi English and Samskrita. *But all Samskrita universities (12) have uniform rule to have theses in Samskrita only.* veeranarayana On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard < jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote: > As a contribution to the debate, I would like to mention another parameter, > namely the legal constraints that vary from country to country. > > It is (in normal conditions) against the law to write a Ph.D. thesis in > English if you study at a French university. > > See the following link: > > > > where you will find the "Article 11", of the "LOI n? 94-665 du 4 ao?t 1994 > relative ? l'emploi de la langue fran?aise" (known as "Loi Toubon") which > says: > > "La langue de l'enseignement, des examens et concours, ainsi que des th?ses > et m?moires dans les ?tablissements publics et priv?s d'enseignement est le > fran?ais, sauf exceptions justifi?es par les n?cessit?s de l'enseignement > des langues et cultures r?gionales ou ?trang?res ou lorsque les enseignants > sont des professeurs associ?s ou invit?s ?trangers." > > I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written in English, but > I would like to have confirmation of that fact. > > I am under the impression that in Italy, a Ph.D. thesis must be in italian. > > What is the situation in India? Is it possible to write a Ph.D. thesis in > Sanskrit? > > The consequence of the French legal constraints is that a French Ph.D. > thesis in the field of Indology has to be translated into English before it > can hope to reach an international audience > (and translation into Sanskrit, or Tamil, can probably only be viewed as a > third step). > > Of course, there are people in France who realize that this situation is > problematic, but there are other people who fight strongly against any > change. > > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot Paris 7) > > > veeranarayana Pandurangi a ?crit : > >> Certainly, I welcome prof. Kiparsky's suggestion. >> >> It is what suggested by me there in hyderabad seminar. What I pointed is >> that Prof. Kiparsky, prof. Houben, prof. Stall and very few others have >> contributed very much grammatical tradition of panini, on the subject that >> prof. Houben spoke there. But most of these researches are in english, >> which >> is mostly onknown to most of the very good traditional Samskrita scholars >> who fortunatley still are keeping alive the panini's tradition. simlar is >> the case of other shastras still rigorously studied in India, Nyaya, >> Vyakarana, Mimamsa, Vedanta, Sahitya. [...] >> >> >> Hence those writing in socalled international language i.e. English should >> also publish in samskrita (not sanskrit) and technical language that >> includes and that is original to paninian tradition, then the intended >> result can be acheived. people should be made aware of these things. Many >> of >> you may know oldtimer pandita manners very well while visiting india. >> >> [....] >> >> Similarly people should practice writing in sanskrit. Sure I know that >> will >> have their no impact on their career in US universities and elsewhere, but >> then english writing will have no result though writer may become >> profesor. >> >> I dont say it is solely the fault of people writing in english or language >> itself, the sin is shared by Pandits also by not responding to these >> writngs. but then there come all the barriers. we have a strike a balance >> to >> overcome it. By writing in Samskrita one will only contribute more to >> language he studies, and nothing udesired thing will happen. >> >> This is what I spoke in Hyderabad. >> >> It is upto the scholars to workout. >> veeranarayana >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Paul Kiparsky >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> If you want your work to be accessible to linguistically disjoint >>> audiences, why write it up in just one language? In smaller European >>> countries it is, or at any rate used to be, usual to publish one's work >>> both >>> in English (or German) in an international journal, and locally in the >>> national language. For English-speaking Indologists, the comparable >>> practice would be to publish both an English version in an international >>> journal or book, and a Hindi, Tamil, or Sanskrit version in India. As >>> Jan >>> Houben reported here on March 3, summaries of the talks at the recent >>> Third >>> International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium were made >>> available both in English and in Sanskrit. The traditional philologists >>> and >>> pandits who attended the conference welcomed the Sanskrit version as a >>> step >>> to overcoming the language barrier and establishing mutual understanding >>> with English-speaking Indologists and computational linguists. >>> >>> Paul Kiparsky >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: >>> >>> On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The more languages >>> one >>> >>> >>>> knows, the better." >>>> >>>> Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective of the consumer or >>>> recipient of texts. Active researchers are also producers of texts, and >>>> must >>>> produce them in one language or another. From this perspective, one's >>>> work >>>> will be inaccessible to those who lack facility with the language in >>>> which >>>> it is presented; and the choice of language is therefore a choice of >>>> audience. >>>> >>>> On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing source of >>>> embarrassment and bemusement to myself and many of my contemporaries >>>> that >>>> the journals and publishers we have been led to believe are most highly >>>> esteemed by our institutional elders (in whose hands our careers lie) >>>> tend >>>> to be those which most of our desired audience cannot access. One cannot >>>> but >>>> suppose that, as a result, most of the discourse that there is on >>>> indological subjects occurs in contexts systematically ignorant of >>>> certain >>>> recent discoveries in indology. >>>> >>>> The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been funding a higher >>>> and >>>> higher fraction of British indological research in recent years. My >>>> perception is that the AHRC are increasingly concerned to ensure that >>>> the >>>> projects they fund have outputs accessible beyond the university sector. >>>> Perhaps, then, pretty soon, projects whose principal written outputs are >>>> not >>>> to be made freely available online will simply not be publicly funded. >>>> >>>> Simon Brodbeck >>>> Cardiff University >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU Fri Mar 20 02:42:19 2009 From: fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU (FRITS STAAL) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 19:42:19 -0700 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085486.23782.5537882063624066330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The statement "If you walk into almost any brahman home, there's an almira somewhere that's packed with MSS." is grossly exaggerated. It applies to a few homes of brahman families in traditional areas. > Further to Richard's comments, I heard David Pingree say in conversation > that there might be 30 million Sanskrit manuscripts in the world today, if > one took into account all the MSS in private collections. Unfortunately, > I never asked him how he got that figure (did anyone else hear this > estimate from him?). The National Mission for Manuscripts > (http://www.namami.org/) works with a figure of seven million, if I > remember correctly. NAMAMI has conducted surveys, the results of which > are here: > > http://www.namami.org/nationalsurvey.htm > > I find the results raise questions for me: the numbers of MSS seem rather > low. Maybe they are only looking at non-library repositories? There are > other questions: In 2004-5, in Bihar, Orissa and UP, 650,000 manuscripts > were documented in about 35,000 repositories. That means each repository > had 18.6 MSS. Nobody has that few MSS. If you walk into almost any > brahman home, there's an almira somewhere that's packed with MSS. I would > estimate 100-500 MSS is typical of a domestic collection, with numbers > easily rising to a couple of thousand. For example, during a visit to the > Alwar branch of the RORI a few years ago, I took some notes about donated > MS acquisitions added subsequent to the Maharaja's palace collection: > > Donor Number of MSS > > Pt Poorna Malji 200 > Pt Laxmi Kantji 200 > Pt Ram Dattaji 335 > Sarvashir Pt Pitamer Das 60 > Nandan Lalji Misra 42 > Ramesh Chandraji Bhargava 144 > Thakur Chiddu Singh 59 > Shankar Lalji 104 > Pyare Lalji Sharma 5 > Amarnathji Sarasvat 166 > Pt Shiv Dattaji 500 > > The Peterson catalogue lists 2478 MSS in 1892; by 1985 there were 6711 > MSS, of which 1687 were by donation by the above-listed gentlemen. > > Again, there are lots of open questions here. What is the demographic of > pandits or families willing to donate their MSS to RORI? What are the > social pressures to do so, or not to do so? Is it meritorious? Is it > more meritorious to throw MSS into a river (as documented by Prof. KT > Pandurangi in his 1978 booklet "The Wealth of Sanskrit Manuscripts in > India and Abroad" (http://books.google.nl/books?id=ahZ2AAAAIAAJ). Are > there large, undonated collections? > > One valuable policy of the RORI branches is that they put the name of the > donor pandit on a large label on top of the almira with his MSS. A sense > of identity, continuity and family pride is preserved in this way. It > might seem a small thing, but it's important. > > Final point for now: rough calculations based on collection-wide > statistics for MS corpora such as those documented in VOHD show that MSS > having dated colophons number about 15% of a typical collection, and that > > THE MEDIAN DATE FOR SURVIVING SANSKRIT MSS IS 1830 > > I've shouted that statement because it is so extraordinary. It is > explicable as the result of two historical facts. First, the destruction > of MSS preceding this date. (Pingree, again, said that a paper Sanskrit > MS physically lasted about 200 years.) Second, the advent of widespread > printing in the second half of the nineteenth century, leading to the > demise of the scribal profession. > > If Pingree's 200 year figure is roughly right, the majority of surviving > paper Skt MSS have about 20 years left before disappearing just from old > age. > > > Best, > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > Frits Staal http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal From e.ciurtin at GMAIL.COM Thu Mar 19 18:54:32 2009 From: e.ciurtin at GMAIL.COM (Eugen Ciurtin) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 20:54:32 +0200 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <20557244.258861237481851593.JavaMail.root@wmail4.libero.it> Message-ID: <161227085471.23782.398900252292107382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Neriosangh, a Gujarati Parsi *dastur*, translated the Avestan Yasna into Sanskrit probably in the 15th c. This translation (discovered by Anquetil Dupperon during his stay in India) was of crucial help for Eug?ne Burnouf (1801-1852) in his comparative studies of the Avesta, mainly in *Commentaire sur le Ya?na*, Paris, 1833ff., continued in 1861 by Friedrich Spiegel in*Neriosengh?s Sanskrit-?bersetzung des Ya?na *. http://books.google.com/books?id=ULgOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA193&dq=neriosengh+sanskrit&lr=&ei=1YvCSfH1K5HaMbqWvOwN&hl=ro There are other early modern Sanskrit translations of Avestic or Pahlavi Zoroastrian works (e.g. parts of the *Vendidad*, *Arda Viraz*, etc.). With best wishes, Eugen Ciurtin 2009/3/19 donovevs at libero.it > The Raajavyavahaarakoza is a lexicon of Sanskrit equivalents to (mostly) > Persian administrative terms; it was prepared on Shivaji?s behalf by > Raghunaatha (ca. 1676). > > Regards, > > Svevo D?Onofrio > > Department of Linguistic > and Oriental Studies > University of Bologna (Italy) > > > > On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Sven > Sellmer wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > lately I was asked about early translations > into Sanskrit and noticed > that this is quite an interesting question I know > little about. Is > anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In > particular, I > would be curious to learn about the earliest translations > into > Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle > > Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the > full > sense). > > Best wishes, > Sven Sellmer > > ************************************ > Dr. > Sven Sellmer > Adam Mickiewicz University > Institute of Oriental Studies > South > Asia Unit > ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 > 61-485 Pozna? > POLAND > sven at amu.edu.pl > -- Dr E. Ciurtin Secretary of the Romanian Association for the History of Religions www.rahr.ro Publications Officer of the European Association for the Study of Religions www.easr.de Secretary of the Scientific Council Institute for the History of Religions, Romanian Academy Calea 13 Septembrie no. 13 sect. 5, Bucharest 050711 Phone: 00 40 733 951 953 www.ihr-acad.ro From hellwig7 at GMX.DE Thu Mar 19 21:10:33 2009 From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 21:10:33 +0000 Subject: PDF dictionaries Message-ID: <161227085474.23782.17524305188077155409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list, a dictionary of the Buddhacarita and a cumulative dictionary of the Samkhyakarika (with (parts of) two commentaries) are available at www.sanskritreader.de/dictionaries/dictionaries.htm. Best, O. Hellwig From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu Mar 19 21:25:34 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 22:25:34 +0100 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085477.23782.8016287057964485763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is Sanskrit translation of the Bible, printed in the grantha script, from 1863. Perhaps there are earlier ones. If I remember correctly, Sylvain Levi discusses some evidence for the translation of the Alexander Legend into Sanskrit in the early centuries CE. Best wishes, EF Quoting Dominik Wujastyk : > > Samr?? Jagann?tha translated Euclid into Sanskrit at the court of > Jayasi?ha (1688-1743). Ed by Kamal??a?kara Pr??a?a?kara Trived?, > Bombay: Nir?asas?gara Press, 1901. It was the Nasir ad-Din > al-Tusi's Arabic tr. of Euclid that was translated, not the original > Greek. > > Michael Dodson has written a good article on Ballantyne's 19th > century efforts in Benares to present European science of the time > in Sanskrit treatises. He and his pandits produced treatises for > example on chemistry, the moon, and other topics. See > http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=100309 > > Lancelot Wilkinson and his pandit Bapu Deva Sastri too worked on > translating Arabic and European astronomical treatises into > Sanskrit. See Minikowski's paper in Michaels' book The Pandit > (http://books.google.com/books?id=0TtuAAAAMAAJ&pgis=1) and other > papers. > > Best, > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > > > > > On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Sven Sellmer wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and >> noticed that this is quite an interesting question I know little >> about. Is anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In >> particular, I would be curious to learn about the earliest >> translations into Sanskrit of texts originally composed in >> languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would >> consider translations in the full sense). >> >> Best wishes, >> Sven Sellmer >> >> ************************************ >> Dr. Sven Sellmer >> Adam Mickiewicz University >> Institute of Oriental Studies >> South Asia Unit >> ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 >> 61-485 Pozna? >> POLAND >> sven at amu.edu.pl ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From elisa.freschi at STUDISUDASIATICI.NET Thu Mar 19 21:35:38 2009 From: elisa.freschi at STUDISUDASIATICI.NET (elisa freschi) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 22:35:38 +0100 Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085480.23782.2619134921268049887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I am under the impression that in Italy, a Ph.D. thesis > must be in italian. MA thesis must be in Italian (I know of only one exception), whereas PhD thesis are normally written in Italian, but if the PhD committee members agree they can also be written in English. In the last five years this happens many times, but it is by far not the rule. elisa freschi (research felow, University 'Sapienza' Rome, Italy) ----- Original Message ----- Da : Alexandra Vandergeer A : INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Oggetto : Re: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers Data : Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:37:44 +0100 > Same is valid for Greek universities: PhD theses should be > written in Greek. There is, however, a change, it is under > certain circumstances allowed to write in English (but > with permission from all committee members, so forget it). > > Alexandra > > ________________________________ > > Van: Indology namens Jean-Luc Chevillard > Verzonden: do 19-3-2009 14:25 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: > Language barriers --- financial barriers > > > > As a contribution to the debate, I would like to mention > another parameter, namely the legal constraints that vary > from country to country. > > It is (in normal conditions) against the law to write a > Ph.D. thesis in English if you study at a French > university. > > See the following link: > > > > where you will find the "Article 11", of the "LOI n? > 94-665 du 4 ao?t 1994 relative ? l'emploi de la langue > fran?aise" (known as "Loi Toubon") which says: > > "La langue de l'enseignement, des examens et concours, > ainsi que des th?ses et m?moires dans les ?tablissements > publics et priv?s d'enseignement est le fran?ais, sauf > exceptions justifi?es par les n?cessit?s de l'enseignement > des langues et cultures r?gionales ou ?trang?res ou > lorsque les enseignants sont des professeurs associ?s ou > invit?s ?trangers." > > I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written > in English, but I would like to have confirmation of that > fact. > > I am under the impression that in Italy, a Ph.D. thesis > must be in italian. > > What is the situation in India? Is it possible to write a > Ph.D. thesis in Sanskrit? > > The consequence of the French legal constraints is that a > French Ph.D. thesis in the field of Indology has to be > translated into English before it can hope to reach an > international audience (and translation into Sanskrit, or > Tamil, can probably only be viewed as a third step). > > Of course, there are people in France who realize that > this situation is problematic, but there are other people > who fight strongly against any change. > > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot > Paris 7) > > > veeranarayana Pandurangi a ?crit : > > Certainly, I welcome prof. Kiparsky's suggestion. > > > > It is what suggested by me there in hyderabad seminar. > > What I pointed is that Prof. Kiparsky, prof. Houben, > > prof. Stall and very few others have contributed very > > much grammatical tradition of panini, on the subject > that prof. Houben spoke there. But most of these > > researches are in english, which is mostly onknown to > > most of the very good traditional Samskrita scholars who > fortunatley still are keeping alive the panini's > > tradition. simlar is the case of other shastras still > > rigorously studied in India, Nyaya, Vyakarana, Mimamsa, > Vedanta, Sahitya. [...] > > > > > Hence those writing in socalled international language > > i.e. English should also publish in samskrita (not > > sanskrit) and technical language that includes and that > > is original to paninian tradition, then the intended > result can be acheived. people should be made aware of > > these things. Many of you may know oldtimer pandita > manners very well while visiting india. > > > [....] > > > > Similarly people should practice writing in sanskrit. > > Sure I know that will have their no impact on their > > career in US universities and elsewhere, but then > english writing will have no result though writer may > become profesor. > > > I dont say it is solely the fault of people writing in > > english or language itself, the sin is shared by Pandits > > also by not responding to these writngs. but then there > > come all the barriers. we have a strike a balance to > overcome it. By writing in Samskrita one will only > > contribute more to language he studies, and nothing > udesired thing will happen. > > > This is what I spoke in Hyderabad. > > > > It is upto the scholars to workout. > > veeranarayana > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Paul Kiparsky > > wrote: > > > > > >> If you want your work to be accessible to > linguistically disjoint >> audiences, why write it up in > just one language? In smaller European >> countries it > is, or at any rate used to be, usual to publish one's work > both >> in English (or German) in an international journal > , and locally in the >> national language. For > English-speaking Indologists, the comparable >> practice > would be to publish both an English version in an > international >> journal or book, and a Hindi, Tamil, or > Sanskrit version in India. As Jan >> Houben reported here > on March 3, summaries of the talks at the recent Third >> > International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium > were made >> available both in English and in Sanskrit. > The traditional philologists and >> pandits who attended > the conference welcomed the Sanskrit version as a step >> > to overcoming the language barrier and establishing mutual > understanding >> with English-speaking Indologists and > computational linguists. >> > >> Paul Kiparsky > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: > >> > >> On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The > more languages one >> > >>> knows, the better." > >>> > >>> Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective > of the consumer or >>> recipient of texts. Active > researchers are also producers of texts, and must >>> > produce them in one language or another. From this > perspective, one's work >>> will be inaccessible to those > who lack facility with the language in which >>> it is > presented; and the choice of language is therefore a > choice of >>> audience. > >>> > >>> On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing > source of >>> embarrassment and bemusement to myself and > many of my contemporaries that >>> the journals and > publishers we have been led to believe are most highly >>> > esteemed by our institutional elders (in whose hands our > careers lie) tend >>> to be those which most of our > desired audience cannot access. One cannot but >>> suppose > that, as a result, most of the discourse that there is on > >>> indological subjects occurs in contexts systematically > ignorant of certain >>> recent discoveries in indology. > >>> > >>> The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been > funding a higher and >>> higher fraction of British > indological research in recent years. My >>> perception is > that the AHRC are increasingly concerned to ensure that > the >>> projects they fund have outputs accessible beyond > the university sector. >>> Perhaps, then, pretty soon, > projects whose principal written outputs are not >>> to be > made freely available online will simply not be publicly > funded. >>> > >>> Simon Brodbeck > >>> Cardiff University > >>> > >>> > > > > > > From Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR Thu Mar 19 22:02:33 2009 From: Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR (=?utf-8?Q?G=C3=A9rard_Huet?=) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 23:02:33 +0100 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <20090319222534.32012y3uo5trir0u@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085483.23782.12697374305018201702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pr Minkowski, in his Inaugural Lecture for the Boden Professorship at Oxford, tells about the Sulaimaccaitra, the Life of Sulaymaan (King Solomon). This Sanskrit text was commissioned by prince Laa.dkaan of the Lodi ruling family in Oudh around 1500. Its first 3 chapters deal with King' David's life. This is not a direct translation of biblical stories, and it borrows from Arabic versions, but parts of David's story are not known from arabic sources. GH Le 19 mars 09 ? 22:25, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE a ?crit : > There is Sanskrit translation of the Bible, printed in the grantha > script, from 1863. Perhaps there are earlier ones. > If I remember correctly, Sylvain Levi discusses some evidence for > the translation of the Alexander Legend into Sanskrit in the early > centuries CE. > Best wishes, > EF > > > Quoting Dominik Wujastyk : > >> >> Samr?? Jagann?tha translated Euclid into Sanskrit at the court >> of Jayasi?ha (1688-1743). Ed by Kamal??a?kara >> Pr??a?a?kara Trived?, Bombay: Nir?asas?gara Press, 1901. >> It was the Nasir ad-Din al-Tusi's Arabic tr. of Euclid that was >> translated, not the original Greek. >> >> Michael Dodson has written a good article on Ballantyne's 19th >> century efforts in Benares to present European science of the time >> in Sanskrit treatises. He and his pandits produced treatises for >> example on chemistry, the moon, and other topics. See >> http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=100309 >> >> Lancelot Wilkinson and his pandit Bapu Deva Sastri too worked on >> translating Arabic and European astronomical treatises into >> Sanskrit. See Minikowski's paper in Michaels' book The Pandit (http://books.google.com/books?id=0TtuAAAAMAAJ&pgis=1 >> ) and other papers. >> >> Best, >> -- >> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Sven Sellmer wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and >>> noticed that this is quite an interesting question I know little >>> about. Is anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In >>> particular, I would be curious to learn about the earliest >>> translations into Sanskrit of texts originally composed in >>> languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I >>> would consider translations in the full sense). >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> Sven Sellmer >>> >>> ************************************ >>> Dr. Sven Sellmer >>> Adam Mickiewicz University >>> Institute of Oriental Studies >>> South Asia Unit >>> ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 >>> 61-485 Pozna? >>> POLAND >>> sven at amu.edu.pl > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > From vbd203 at GOOGLEMAIL.COM Fri Mar 20 03:17:38 2009 From: vbd203 at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (victor davella) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 23:17:38 -0400 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <9A3C5127-BD69-41EA-B0F8-64E9D54D5BDB@inria.fr> Message-ID: <161227085489.23782.4765826282690776485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Minkowski's inaugural address can be found on his website here: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ball2185/ It's quite a good read. Best, Victor PhD Candidate MEALAC Columbia University On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 6:02 PM, G?rard Huet wrote: > Pr Minkowski, in his Inaugural Lecture for the Boden Professorship at > Oxford, > tells about the Sulaimaccaitra, the Life of Sulaymaan (King Solomon). > This Sanskrit text was commissioned by prince Laa.dkaan of the > Lodi ruling family in Oudh around 1500. Its first 3 chapters deal with > King' David's life. > This is not a direct translation of biblical stories, > and it borrows from Arabic versions, but parts of David's story are not > known from arabic sources. > GH > > > Le 19 mars 09 ? 22:25, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE a ?crit : > > > There is Sanskrit translation of the Bible, printed in the grantha script, >> from 1863. Perhaps there are earlier ones. >> If I remember correctly, Sylvain Levi discusses some evidence for the >> translation of the Alexander Legend into Sanskrit in the early centuries CE. >> Best wishes, >> EF >> >> >> Quoting Dominik Wujastyk : >> >> >>> Samr?? Jagann?tha translated Euclid into Sanskrit at the court of >>> Jayasi?ha (1688-1743). Ed by Kamal??a?kara Pr??a?a?kara Trived?, Bombay: >>> Nir?asas?gara Press, 1901. It was the Nasir ad-Din al-Tusi's Arabic tr. of >>> Euclid that was translated, not the original Greek. >>> >>> Michael Dodson has written a good article on Ballantyne's 19th century >>> efforts in Benares to present European science of the time in Sanskrit >>> treatises. He and his pandits produced treatises for example on chemistry, >>> the moon, and other topics. See >>> >>> http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=100309 >>> >>> Lancelot Wilkinson and his pandit Bapu Deva Sastri too worked on >>> translating Arabic and European astronomical treatises into Sanskrit. See >>> Minikowski's paper in Michaels' book The Pandit ( >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=0TtuAAAAMAAJ&pgis=1) and other papers. >>> >>> Best, >>> -- >>> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Sven Sellmer wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>>> >>>> lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed >>>> that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is anybody >>>> aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I would be curious >>>> to learn about the earliest translations into Sanskrit of texts originally >>>> composed in languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I >>>> would consider translations in the full sense). >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> Sven Sellmer >>>> >>>> ************************************ >>>> Dr. Sven Sellmer >>>> Adam Mickiewicz University >>>> Institute of Oriental Studies >>>> South Asia Unit >>>> ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 >>>> 61-485 Pozna? >>>> POLAND >>>> sven at amu.edu.pl >>>> >>> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. >> >> >> From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 20 11:12:04 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 09 07:12:04 -0400 Subject: Legal constraints (la Message-ID: <161227085501.23782.5600109656865508274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, Red: What is the situation in India? Is it possible to write a Ph.D. thesis in Sanskrit? >?From my experience with Sanskrit universities in India, principally the Sampuur.naananda Sa.msk.rta Vi'svavidyaalaya.h in Varanasi, Sanskrit is regularly used as the medium for doctoral dissertations. Cordially, George -----Original Message----- >From: Jean-Luc Chevillard >Sent: Mar 19, 2009 8:25 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers > >As a contribution to the debate, I would like to mention another >parameter, namely the legal constraints that vary from country to country. > >It is (in normal conditions) against the law to write a Ph.D. thesis in >English if you study at a French university. > >See the following link: > > > >where you will find the "Article 11", of the "LOI n? 94-665 du 4 ao?t >1994 relative ? l'emploi de la langue fran?aise" (known as "Loi Toubon") >which says: > >"La langue de l'enseignement, des examens et concours, ainsi que des >th?ses et m?moires dans les ?tablissements publics et priv?s >d'enseignement est le fran?ais, sauf exceptions justifi?es par les >n?cessit?s de l'enseignement des langues et cultures r?gionales ou >?trang?res ou lorsque les enseignants sont des professeurs associ?s ou >invit?s ?trangers." > >I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written in English, >but I would like to have confirmation of that fact. > >I am under the impression that in Italy, a Ph.D. thesis must be in italian. > >What is the situation in India? Is it possible to write a Ph.D. thesis >in Sanskrit? > >The consequence of the French legal constraints is that a French Ph.D. >thesis in the field of Indology has to be translated into English before >it can hope to reach an international audience >(and translation into Sanskrit, or Tamil, can probably only be viewed as >a third step). > >Of course, there are people in France who realize that this situation is >problematic, but there are other people who fight strongly against any >change. > > >-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot Paris 7) > > >veeranarayana Pandurangi a ?crit : >> Certainly, I welcome prof. Kiparsky's suggestion. >> >> It is what suggested by me there in hyderabad seminar. What I pointed is >> that Prof. Kiparsky, prof. Houben, prof. Stall and very few others have >> contributed very much grammatical tradition of panini, on the subject that >> prof. Houben spoke there. But most of these researches are in english, which >> is mostly onknown to most of the very good traditional Samskrita scholars >> who fortunatley still are keeping alive the panini's tradition. simlar is >> the case of other shastras still rigorously studied in India, Nyaya, >> Vyakarana, Mimamsa, Vedanta, Sahitya. [...] >> >> >> Hence those writing in socalled international language i.e. English should >> also publish in samskrita (not sanskrit) and technical language that >> includes and that is original to paninian tradition, then the intended >> result can be acheived. people should be made aware of these things. Many of >> you may know oldtimer pandita manners very well while visiting india. >> >> [....] >> >> Similarly people should practice writing in sanskrit. Sure I know that will >> have their no impact on their career in US universities and elsewhere, but >> then english writing will have no result though writer may become profesor. >> >> I dont say it is solely the fault of people writing in english or language >> itself, the sin is shared by Pandits also by not responding to these >> writngs. but then there come all the barriers. we have a strike a balance to >> overcome it. By writing in Samskrita one will only contribute more to >> language he studies, and nothing udesired thing will happen. >> >> This is what I spoke in Hyderabad. >> >> It is upto the scholars to workout. >> veeranarayana >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Paul Kiparsky >> wrote: >> >> >>> If you want your work to be accessible to linguistically disjoint >>> audiences, why write it up in just one language? In smaller European >>> countries it is, or at any rate used to be, usual to publish one's work both >>> in English (or German) in an international journal, and locally in the >>> national language. For English-speaking Indologists, the comparable >>> practice would be to publish both an English version in an international >>> journal or book, and a Hindi, Tamil, or Sanskrit version in India. As Jan >>> Houben reported here on March 3, summaries of the talks at the recent Third >>> International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium were made >>> available both in English and in Sanskrit. The traditional philologists and >>> pandits who attended the conference welcomed the Sanskrit version as a step >>> to overcoming the language barrier and establishing mutual understanding >>> with English-speaking Indologists and computational linguists. >>> >>> Paul Kiparsky >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: >>> >>> On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The more languages one >>> >>>> knows, the better." >>>> >>>> Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective of the consumer or >>>> recipient of texts. Active researchers are also producers of texts, and must >>>> produce them in one language or another. From this perspective, one's work >>>> will be inaccessible to those who lack facility with the language in which >>>> it is presented; and the choice of language is therefore a choice of >>>> audience. >>>> >>>> On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing source of >>>> embarrassment and bemusement to myself and many of my contemporaries that >>>> the journals and publishers we have been led to believe are most highly >>>> esteemed by our institutional elders (in whose hands our careers lie) tend >>>> to be those which most of our desired audience cannot access. One cannot but >>>> suppose that, as a result, most of the discourse that there is on >>>> indological subjects occurs in contexts systematically ignorant of certain >>>> recent discoveries in indology. >>>> >>>> The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been funding a higher and >>>> higher fraction of British indological research in recent years. My >>>> perception is that the AHRC are increasingly concerned to ensure that the >>>> projects they fund have outputs accessible beyond the university sector. >>>> Perhaps, then, pretty soon, projects whose principal written outputs are not >>>> to be made freely available online will simply not be publicly funded. >>>> >>>> Simon Brodbeck >>>> Cardiff University >>>> >>>> >> >> >> From cbpicron at GMX.DE Fri Mar 20 07:45:00 2009 From: cbpicron at GMX.DE (Claudine Bautze-Picron) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 09 08:45:00 +0100 Subject: Bangles In-Reply-To: <6D4A4C70-6C88-4D01-AE7D-E8B1B04E4556@mac.com> Message-ID: <161227085497.23782.5061124804517519344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Your student might have a look at : S.P. Tewari, Nuupura, the anklet in Indian literature and art, with a foreword by C. Sivaramamurti, Delhi: Agam Kala Prakashan, 1982. CBP. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Mary Storm Sent: Donnerstag, 19. M?rz 2009 06:03 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Bangles Dear Indologists, I am writing on behalf of a student who is doing a research project on the place of bangles in Indian society. She is looking at images (plenty, not a problem!) and she is also searching for poetic references (not so successful). I hope that one of you could offer up some possible poetic references. I can only think of the poem by Sarojini Naidu. Any help would be most appreciated. Thank you so much for your thoughts! Mary Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director North India Arts and Culture and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for International Training www.sit.edu Mobile +91 98106 98003 F-301 Lado Sarai 2nd Fl New Delhi 110030 India From brendan.gillon at MCGILL.CA Fri Mar 20 13:09:31 2009 From: brendan.gillon at MCGILL.CA (Brendan Gillon) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 09 09:09:31 -0400 Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <161227085504.23782.10756956604231356674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, Thanks to those of you who responded with information about the relative states of the cultural heritages of Europe and India. I shall be monitoring all other information which comes in with respect to this matter. It seems to me that, properly marshalled, this information can serve as a very powerful argument to increase funds to at least those parts of Indological studies which can help to mitigate the risk of loss. Best wishes, Brendan Gillon -- Brendan S. Gillon email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca Department of Linguistics McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088 H3A 1A7 CANADA webpage: http://www.mcgill.ca/linguistics/people/gillon/ From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Fri Mar 20 04:22:40 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 09 09:52:40 +0530 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085494.23782.1969086291573122931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 19 Mar 2009, at 22:26, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > The National Mission for Manuscripts (http://www.namami.org/) > works with a figure of seven million, if I remember correctly. > NAMAMI has conducted surveys, the results of which are here: > > http://www.namami.org/nationalsurvey.htm > > I find the results raise questions for me: the numbers of MSS seem > rather low. Maybe they are only looking at non-library > repositories? There are other questions: In 2004-5, in Bihar, > Orissa and UP, 650,000 manuscripts were documented in about 35,000 > repositories. That means each repository had 18.6 MSS. Nobody has > that few MSS. The NMM database reveals that it has not been covering quite a number of larger MS collections so far. > > Is it more meritorious to throw MSS into a river (as documented by > Prof. KT Pandurangi in his 1978 booklet "The Wealth of Sanskrit > Manuscripts in India and Abroad" (http://books.google.nl/books?id=ahZ2AAAAIAAJ > ). Oblation into fire is also an option. The following is from Trilocana"siva's C12th Praaya"scittasamuccaya (currently being edited by Dr. R. Sathyanarayanan in Pondicherry): jiir.naa"nga.m yat svasiddhaanta.m pustaka.m tad gh.rtaaplutam| agniku.n.de tu hotavya.m hutvaaghora"sata.m japet|| 188|| `A manuscript of one's own tradition that is worn in parts should be suffused with ghee and oblated in the fire-pit. After oblating it, one should recite the aghora-mantra 100 times.' Dominic Goodall Pondicherry Centre, Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient ("French School of Asian Studies"), Pondicherry From paolo.magnone at UNICATT.IT Fri Mar 20 18:22:52 2009 From: paolo.magnone at UNICATT.IT (Paolo Magnone) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 09 19:22:52 +0100 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: <001901c9a826$fefff260$0301a8c0@Simonpoot> Message-ID: <161227085507.23782.8330706255696916648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends, As this thread lingers on, I cannot help being baffled by the fact that the aspects of the problem that loomed large in my thoughts right from the first announce of it, to wit its broadly cultural, pedagogic, indeed even political implications, have not ever been so much as barely mentioned by anyone. I wonder whether this avoidance has been deliberate, as a potentially troublesome topic, or whether there is simply no widespread sensitivity to those aspects. But as more or less subtle insinuations that only English is worth being THE language of indological scholarship ? and indeed, why not, of any scholarship ? multiply, I thought I should ?give my two cents?, to use an expression that would never occur to me if I were writing in Italian (we do not use money metaphors ? or for that matter, we do not refer to money ? nearly as pervasively as they do in (American) English). This example helps to make my point: at the risk of stating the obvious, language is not a neutral instrument, but is integral with the world view it opens up. In Gadamer?s well-known words, ?erst mit der Sprache geht die Welt auf?. Or, to use another expression only roughly translatable into English, language is die ?Zusammengeh?rigkeit? (the interconnection or mutual pertinence) of the subject and the world. To some extent, the thinking and /ipso facto /speaking subject is ?spoken? by the language as much as he speaks it. He can never transcend the linguistic world, but through other languages he can gain access to the worlds of others. Now, like all other objects, India is different ? was opened up different ? in the different worlds. While I don?t want to belabour this point (who does not admire the pioneering work of the English fathers of indology?) I certainly would not like to give up ? just as an example ? a world envisioning India as a ?Land der Sehnsucht... [ein] Wunderreich... eine verzauberte Welt... [ein] gesuchtes Land, ein wesentliches Moment der ganzen Geschichte? (Hegel), in favour of another, where we are made to ask ourselves whether ?we shall countenance, at public expense?, preserving the culture of a land with an ?Astronomy, which would move laughter in girls at an English boarding school, History, abounding with kings thirty feet high, and reigns thirty thousand years long, and Geography, made up of seas of treacle and seas of butter? (English politician, historian and /poet/ Macaulay, only some fifteen-twenty years later). Of course, it would be unfair to the extreme to put a Macaulay up against Hegel (and a politician up against a philosopher); still, apart from the two personalities in themselves, I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon matter-of-factness speaking in Macaulay?s infamous ?Minute on Indian Education? as there is typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual in Hegel?s winged eulogy of India. (By the way, Macaulay would have seconded the motion that indologists should give up writing in their respective mother tongues in favour of English, a language which in his opinion ?stands pre-eminent even among the languages of the west?, embodying a literature ?of far greater value than all the literature which three hundred years ago was extant in all the languages of the world together?). To leave that heroic age of the beginnings (the age of the ?Renaissance orientale?, contributed to by many but eminently embodied by German Romanticism and bringing final fulfilment to that ideal of integral Humanism which was the promise of the first Rinascimento of Italian make) and to come to present day indology: all due allowance being made for the personalities and even idiosyncrasies of the individual scholars, there are unmistakably different flavours of indological scholarship that find expression in the different linguistic worlds. Whatever one may think of their respective worth, linguistic uniformity subtends cultural uniformity, which to me is an evil in itself, to be averted at all costs (and at that, I daresay the world is not faring particularly well with the globalized angloamerican monoculture :-). Let us preserve bio-diversity, let us preserve the rare indigenous varieties of cultural crops! -- Paolo Magnone Lingua e letteratura sanscrita Universit? Cattolica di Milano Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net) PS - As for the concern raised by the very title of this thread, that the babel of tongues might constitute a barrier to the propagation of indological knowledge I cannot do better than quote the well-known /subh??ita/: /anantap?ra? kila ?abda??stra? svalpa? tath?yur bahava? ca vighn?? s?ra? tato gr?hyam ap?sya phalgu ha?sair yath? k??ram iv?mbumadhy?t. /Someone else may fancy that he would positively peruse /all/ literature relevant to his field /if only/ it were written in English; as for me, I candidly admit to being unable to attain omniscience anyway; there are sure huge amounts of knowledge that escape my grasp in spite of being couched in English (or Italian, or...); on the other hand, I may go for something that I regard as really /s?ravat/ even if it is enshrined (I would say, rather than concealed) in some of the more out-of-the-way tongues. From rajam at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Mar 21 04:04:50 2009 From: rajam at EARTHLINK.NET (rajam) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 09 21:04:50 -0700 Subject: Bangles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085513.23782.8487255519162247995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is your student's focus only on North-Indian/Hindi/Sanskritic material? If she would be interested in knowing about the "role" of bangles, armlets, and so on in the South, I can provide many references from Tamil (starting from old/classical literature to modern movies) and also discuss some religious/social significance of bangles. If you would like, I can send you a PDF document with the references in Tamil poetry (gathered through a computerized search program). But then your student may have to find someone locally to translate the material for her (or, I can help her electronically). Just let me know. Thanks. Regards, V.S. Rajam On Mar 20, 2009, at 7:53 PM, Mary Storm wrote: > Dear Indologists, > > Thank you so much for the bangle angle. Any new thoughts as they > jingle and clink into consciousness would be most gratefully received. > > I am trying to remember a poem in Hindi about a man thinking of > his lover as he finds a fragment of her bangle in his bed. . . > anyone know what I am talking about?? > > Thanks!! > Mary > > > Mary Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director > North India Arts and Culture > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > School for International Training > www.sit.edu > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > F-301 Lado Sarai > 2nd Fl > New Delhi 110030 India > > On 20-Mar-09, at 1:15 PM, Claudine Bautze-Picron wrote: > >> Your student might have a look at : >> S.P. Tewari, Nuupura, the anklet in Indian literature and art, with a >> foreword by C. Sivaramamurti, Delhi: Agam Kala Prakashan, 1982. >> >> CBP. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Mary >> Storm >> Sent: Donnerstag, 19. M?rz 2009 06:03 >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Subject: Bangles >> >> Dear Indologists, >> >> I am writing on behalf of a student who is doing a research >> project on >> the place of bangles in Indian society. She is looking at images >> (plenty, not a problem!) and she is also searching for poetic >> references (not so successful). I hope that one of you could offer up >> some possible poetic references. I can only think of the poem by >> Sarojini Naidu. >> >> Any help would be most appreciated. >> >> Thank you so much for your thoughts! >> >> Mary >> >> >> Mary Storm, Ph.D. >> Academic Director >> North India Arts and Culture >> and >> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture >> SIT Study Abroad >> School for International Training >> www.sit.edu >> >> Mobile +91 98106 98003 >> F-301 Lado Sarai >> 2nd Fl >> New Delhi 110030 India From mnstorm at MAC.COM Sat Mar 21 02:53:13 2009 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 09 08:23:13 +0530 Subject: Bangles In-Reply-To: <002c01c9a92f$c6d143d0$5473cb70$@de> Message-ID: <161227085510.23782.1705228482052969341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Thank you so much for the bangle angle. Any new thoughts as they jingle and clink into consciousness would be most gratefully received. I am trying to remember a poem in Hindi about a man thinking of his lover as he finds a fragment of her bangle in his bed. . . anyone know what I am talking about?? Thanks!! Mary Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director North India Arts and Culture and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for International Training www.sit.edu Mobile +91 98106 98003 F-301 Lado Sarai 2nd Fl New Delhi 110030 India On 20-Mar-09, at 1:15 PM, Claudine Bautze-Picron wrote: > Your student might have a look at : > S.P. Tewari, Nuupura, the anklet in Indian literature and art, with a > foreword by C. Sivaramamurti, Delhi: Agam Kala Prakashan, 1982. > > CBP. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Mary > Storm > Sent: Donnerstag, 19. M?rz 2009 06:03 > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Bangles > > Dear Indologists, > > I am writing on behalf of a student who is doing a research project on > the place of bangles in Indian society. She is looking at images > (plenty, not a problem!) and she is also searching for poetic > references (not so successful). I hope that one of you could offer up > some possible poetic references. I can only think of the poem by > Sarojini Naidu. > > Any help would be most appreciated. > > Thank you so much for your thoughts! > > Mary > > > Mary Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director > North India Arts and Culture > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > School for International Training > www.sit.edu > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > F-301 Lado Sarai > 2nd Fl > New Delhi 110030 India From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Sat Mar 21 04:57:35 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 09 10:27:35 +0530 Subject: Macaulay In-Reply-To: <49C3DEFC.5000600@unicatt.it> Message-ID: <161227085517.23782.10598134485802923650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A quibble: I think I can see what you mean about "Anglosaxon matter-of-factness", but I wonder whether it is really best illustrated by Macaulay's monstrous purple prose. Macaulay gets so carried away by the power of his own rhetoric, it seems to me, that he no longer knows himself when he is being entirely sincere. Here's another passage, tending in the opposite direction, which may be very seductive as a piece of magniloquent oratory, but which again seems to me (particularly when laid beside the infamous "Minute...") somewhat hollow. ``The people of India, when we subdued them, were ten times as numerous as the Americans whom the Spaniards vanquished, and were at the same time quite as highly civilised as the victorious Spaniards. They had reared cities larger and fairer than Saragossa or Toledo, and buildings more beautiful and costly than the cathedral of Seville. They could show bankers richer than the richest firms of Barcelona or Cadiz, viceroys whose splendour far surpassed that of Ferdinand the Catholic, myriads of cavalry and long trains of artillery which would have astonished the Great Captain. It might have been expected, that every Englishman who takes any interest in any part of history would be curious to know how a handful of his countrymen, separated from their home by an immense ocean, subjugated, in the course of a few years, one of the greatest empires in the world.'' [From Macaulay's review of : The Life of Robert Lord Clive; collected from the Family Papers, communicated by the Earl of Powis. By MAJOR- GENERAL SIR JOHN MALCOLM, K.C.B. 3 vols. 8vo. London: 1836.] What Macaulay rather illustrates, I think, is brilliant parliamentary bombast disguised as "matter-of-factness". Dominic Goodall Pondicherry Centre, Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient ("French School of Asian Studies"), Pondicherry > > Now, like all other objects, India is different ? was opened up > different ? in the different worlds. While I don?t want to belabour > this point (who does not admire the pioneering work of the English > fathers of indology?) I certainly would not like to give up ? just > as an example ? a world envisioning India as a ?Land der > Sehnsucht... [ein] Wunderreich... eine verzauberte Welt... [ein] > gesuchtes Land, ein wesentliches Moment der ganzen > Geschichte? (Hegel), in favour of another, where we are made to ask > ourselves whether ?we shall countenance, at public expense?, > preserving the culture of a land with an ?Astronomy, which would > move laughter in girls at an English boarding school, History, > abounding with kings thirty feet high, and reigns thirty thousand > years long, and Geography, made up of seas of treacle and seas of > butter? (English politician, historian and /poet/ Macaulay, only > some fifteen-twenty years later). Of course, it would be unfair to > the extreme to put a Macaulay up against Hegel (and a politician up > against a philosopher); still, apart from the two personalities in > themselves, I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon matter- > of-factness speaking in Macaulay?s infamous ?Minute on Indian > Education? as there is typically German longing for the ineffable > transfactual in Hegel?s winged eulogy of India. (By the way, > Macaulay would have seconded the motion that indologists should give > up writing in their respective mother tongues in favour of English, > a language which in his opinion ?stands pre-eminent even among the > languages of the west?, embodying a literature ?of far greater value > than all the literature which three hundred years ago was extant in > all the languages of the world together?). > > -- > Paolo Magnone > Lingua e letteratura sanscrita > Universit? Cattolica di Milano > > Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net) From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR Sat Mar 21 09:55:31 2009 From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 09 10:55:31 +0100 Subject: Bible and New Testament: translations from hebrew and greek to sanskrit In-Reply-To: <20090319222534.32012y3uo5trir0u@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085520.23782.12201449314932086377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For a sanskrit tranlation of the Bible see: The Holy Bible in the sanskrit language... translated out of the original tongues [ibrIya-bhASAtaH : from the Hebrew language] by the Calcutta Baptist Missionaries, with native assistants; printed at the Baptist Mission Press (See http://www.wmcarey.edu/carey/baptmisspress/bmp.htm), circular road; Calcutta The copy I have in my hands was withdrawn from the Bowdoin College Library,to which it had been given by Rev. James L. Phillips, from Bapt. missn. India, acq. 1873. All volumes seem to be first (and only) editions... (about James L. Phillips, see http://abacus.bates.edu/Library/aboutladd/departments/special/SubjectGuides/FWB.shtml) 1848 (vol 1)Five books of Moses and the book of Joshua ibrIya-bhASAto vyAkRtaH / dharma-granthaH /tasya prathamaM khaNDaM / yad vA / mUsasA racitaM grantha-paJcakaM / yihozUya-pustakaJ ca [414 pp. written throughout in prosa] 1852 (vol 2)The historical books from judges to Esther ibrIya-bhASAto vyAkRtaH / dharma-granthaH / tasya dvitIyaM khaNDaM / yad vA / yihozUyasya maraNAt param isrAyelIya-lokAnAM purAvRtta-pustaka-saGgrahaH [493 pp. mainly prosa, with interspersed verses] 1858 (vol 3)The poetical and devotional books from Job to Canticles, ibrIya-bhASAto vyAkRtaH / dharma-granthaH / tasya tRtIyaM khaNDaM / yad vA / AyUvasya caritra-pustakaM / gIta-saMhitA / rAjJA sulemanA racitAni kavyAni ca [344 pp. written throughout in verses (epic zloka)] 1872 (vol 4)The prophetical books ibrIya-bhASAto vyAkRtaH / dharma-granthaH /tasya caturthaM khaNDaM / yad vA / yizAyiyAdInAM bhaviSyad-vAdinAM / grantha-saGgrahaH [538 pp. verses and prosa interspersed] Character is Nagari, saMdhi is often neglected for the sake of clarity, words being separated in a fashion reminding of DD Kosambi's edition(s) of Bhartrhari's. Translations are accurate and the sanskrit is correct. Luckily, in contradistinction with a lot of works printed in India during this period, the paper is still very good... For a translation of the New Testament [yUnAnIya-bhASAtaH 'from the greek language'], we have by the same publishers : 1851 The New Testament of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (second edition) prabhunA yIzukhrISTena nirUpitasya nUtana-dharmma-niyamasya grantha-saGgrahaH IMlaNDIya-vaGgadezIya-paNDitair yUnAnIya-bhASAto vyAkRtaH [700 pp. all prosa] Was this New Testament a library success ? On the reverse of the title page, we get the following figures : Testament Complete: 1st Edition Copies 1000 / 2nd Edition " 2500 Four Gospels and the Acts : 1st Edition 500 / 2nd Edition 1500 / 3rd Edition 2500 Four gospels and the Acts separately: 1st Edition 19500 / 2nd Edition 12500 / 3rd Edition 12500 Luke and Acts, together: one Edition 1500 Hoping it might help... J. Fezas, Professeur (Langue et litt?rature sanskrites,) Directeur UFR Orient et Monde Arabe, Universit? Paris-3 Sorbonne Nouvelle (Pr.Dr. J. Fezas, (Sanskrit Language and Literature), Dean of the Faculty 'Orient et Monde Arabe', Paris-3 Sorbonne Nouvelle) For those interested, here is a sample of the sanskrit text (Genesis 3, beginning) prabhUnA paramezvareNa sRSTANAM bhUcara-jantUNAM madhye sarpo'tIva khala AsIt| sa tAM nArIm avadat| aye asyodyAnasya kasya cid api pAdapasya phalani bhoktuM paramezvAro yuvAM nyasedhat, kim idaM satyam| tato nArI sarpaM provAca| AvAm etasyodyAnasya sarveSAM viTapinAM phalAni bhoktuM zaknuvaH kevalam udyAna-madhya-sthitasya pAdapasya phalaM pratIzvareNa kathitaM yuvAm etat phalaM mA bhuJjAthAM mA spRzataM ca tat kRtvA mariSyathaH| tadA bhujago nArIM babhASe| yuvAM nizcitaM na mariSyathAH kiM tu yadA tat khAdiSyataH tadA yuvayor locana-prakAzo bhaviSyati| tata Izvara iva bhadrAbhadra-jJAnaM lapsyethe| itIzvaro jAnAti| tadA nArI taM mahIruhaM sukhAdya-phalaM locano-raJjakaM jnAna-labhAya vAJcanIyaM ca vijJAya tasya phalAni zAtayitvA bubhuje| sva-svAmine ca dadau so'pi bhuktavAn| tena tayor ubhayor nayana-prakAzo babhUva| tatas tau svakIya-nagnatAM vijJAya vaTa-pattrANi syUtvA kaTau babandhatuH| -----Message d'origine----- De : Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] De la part de franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Envoy? : jeudi 19 mars 2009 22:26 ? : INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Objet : Re: Translations into Sanskrit There is Sanskrit translation of the Bible, printed in the grantha script, from 1863. Perhaps there are earlier ones. If I remember correctly, Sylvain Levi discusses some evidence for the translation of the Alexander Legend into Sanskrit in the early centuries CE. Best wishes, EF Quoting Dominik Wujastyk : > > Samra? Jagannatha translated Euclid into Sanskrit at the court of > Jayasi?ha (1688-1743). Ed by Kamalasa?kara Pra?asa?kara Trivedi, > Bombay: Nir?asasagara Press, 1901. It was the Nasir ad-Din al-Tusi's > Arabic tr. of Euclid that was translated, not the original Greek. > > Michael Dodson has written a good article on Ballantyne's 19th century > efforts in Benares to present European science of the time in Sanskrit > treatises. He and his pandits produced treatises for example on > chemistry, the moon, and other topics. See > > http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&a > id=100309 > > Lancelot Wilkinson and his pandit Bapu Deva Sastri too worked on > translating Arabic and European astronomical treatises into Sanskrit. > See Minikowski's paper in Michaels' book The Pandit > (http://books.google.com/books?id=0TtuAAAAMAAJ&pgis=1) and other > papers. > > Best, > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > > > > > On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Sven Sellmer wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed >> that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is >> anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I >> would be curious to learn about the earliest translations into >> Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle >> Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the >> full sense). >> >> Best wishes, >> Sven Sellmer >> >> ************************************ >> Dr. Sven Sellmer >> Adam Mickiewicz University >> Institute of Oriental Studies >> South Asia Unit >> ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 >> 61-485 Poznan >> POLAND >> sven at amu.edu.pl ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Mar 21 12:14:20 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 09 13:14:20 +0100 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: <62949.61.19.65.212.1237516939.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227085527.23782.1193138816395641654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, FRITS STAAL wrote: > The statement "If you walk into almost any brahman home, there's an almira > somewhere that's packed with MSS." is grossly exaggerated. It applies to a > few homes of brahman families in traditional areas. Well, yes, I did exaggerate a bit, perhaps, but I would still maintain that largish collections of MSS are very, very widespread in private homes. And they are often ignored by the families themselves. I have sat with brahman friends in their sitting rooms, and asked about MSS, and been told absolutely that they have none. Meanwhile, over their shoulders, in the next room I could actually see a cupboard with palm-leaf MSS visible through the glass. When I politely pointed this out, my hosts were surprised in my interest, and seemed not to count these objects as MSS. They were "old stuff" of indeterminate identity. There was no disingenuousness here, or reluctance to display "family treasures". The cupboard full of MSS really didn't "count" in some sense. It was stuff from their grandparents that hadn't been thought about for years and years. More or less junk. I've even had this "manuscript denial" experience in a major library. The Roja Muthia library in Chennai, where I have participated in a major reconstruction project, and where the staff are my personal friends and colleagues, is mainly a book library. In its early days, I asked about MSS. - "There are none." - "What about those bundles of inscribed palm leaves over there?" - "Oh, what, those?" - "Yes." - "Oh, those are just family records of gifts given and recieved at family functions such as weddings, over many past generations." !!! This "MS denial" happens rather often, and needs to be taken into account when assessing whether or not there are MSS in a particular place. Best, Dominik From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Mar 21 12:38:52 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 09 13:38:52 +0100 Subject: Macaulay In-Reply-To: <8994766F-EC6C-4CF1-BBEE-B0E33AF38CCF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227085531.23782.17366883410159545747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am glad Dominic has presented this alternative bit of Macaulayian bombast. Macaulay himself is more complicated than his repellent and much-cited Minute would suggest. But it is in any case so reductionist and essentializing to present Macaulay as the representative voice of Anglophone attitudes to India (or Hegel for the German case) that I think the general point is not well supported by this argument. However, of course I'm all with Magnone for cultural diversity and the rich perspectivism inherent in different languages communities. Best Dominik (with a -k :-) -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Dominic Goodall wrote: > A quibble: > > I think I can see what you mean about "Anglosaxon matter-of-factness", but I > wonder whether it is really best illustrated by Macaulay's monstrous purple > prose. Macaulay gets so carried away by the power of his own rhetoric, it > seems to me, that he no longer knows himself when he is being entirely > sincere. Here's another passage, tending in the opposite direction, which > may be very seductive as a piece of magniloquent oratory, but which again > seems to me (particularly when laid beside the infamous "Minute...") somewhat > hollow. > > ``The people of India, when we subdued them, were ten times as numerous as > the Americans whom the Spaniards vanquished, and were at the same time quite > as highly civilised as the victorious Spaniards. They had reared cities > larger and fairer than Saragossa or Toledo, and buildings more beautiful and > costly than the cathedral of Seville. They could show bankers richer than the > richest firms of Barcelona or Cadiz, viceroys whose splendour far surpassed > that of Ferdinand the Catholic, myriads of cavalry and long trains of > artillery which would have astonished the Great Captain. It might have been > expected, that every Englishman who takes any interest in any part of history > would be curious to know how a handful of his countrymen, separated from > their home by an immense ocean, subjugated, in the course of a few years, one > of the greatest empires in the world.'' > > [From Macaulay's review of : The Life of Robert Lord Clive; collected from > the Family Papers, communicated by the Earl of Powis. By MAJOR-GENERAL SIR > JOHN MALCOLM, K.C.B. 3 vols. 8vo. London: 1836.] > > What Macaulay rather illustrates, I think, is brilliant parliamentary bombast > disguised as "matter-of-factness". > > Dominic Goodall > Pondicherry Centre, > Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient ("French School of Asian Studies"), > Pondicherry >> >> Now, like all other objects, India is different ? was opened up different ? >> in the different worlds. While I don?t want to belabour this point (who >> does not admire the pioneering work of the English fathers of indology?) I >> certainly would not like to give up ? just as an example ? a world >> envisioning India as a ?Land der Sehnsucht... [ein] Wunderreich... eine >> verzauberte Welt... [ein] gesuchtes Land, ein wesentliches Moment der >> ganzen Geschichte? (Hegel), in favour of another, where we are made to ask >> ourselves whether ?we shall countenance, at public expense?, preserving the >> culture of a land with an ?Astronomy, which would move laughter in girls at >> an English boarding school, History, abounding with kings thirty feet high, >> and reigns thirty thousand years long, and Geography, made up of seas of >> treacle and seas of butter? (English politician, historian and /poet/ >> Macaulay, only some fifteen-twenty years later). Of course, it would be >> unfair to the extreme to put a Macaulay up against Hegel (and a politician >> up against a philosopher); still, apart from the two personalities in >> themselves, I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon >> matter-of-factness speaking in Macaulay?s infamous ?Minute on Indian >> Education? as there is typically German longing for the ineffable >> transfactual in Hegel?s winged eulogy of India. (By the way, Macaulay would >> have seconded the motion that indologists should give up writing in their >> respective mother tongues in favour of English, a language which in his >> opinion ?stands pre-eminent even among the languages of the west?, >> embodying a literature ?of far greater value than all the literature which >> three hundred years ago was extant in all the languages of the world >> together?). >> >> -- >> Paolo Magnone >> Lingua e letteratura sanscrita >> Universit? Cattolica di Milano >> >> Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net) From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Mar 21 21:27:16 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 09 14:27:16 -0700 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: <49C3DEFC.5000600@unicatt.it> Message-ID: <161227085534.23782.14085265580880604895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> on 3/20/2009 11:22 AM Paolo Magnone wrote: > ... (By the way, Macaulay would have seconded the motion that > indologists should give up writing in their respective mother tongues > in favour of English, a language which in his opinion ?stands > pre-eminent even among the languages of the west?, Dear Paolo, Regardless of Macaulay fanciful opinion about the 'pre-eminence' of English, the fact is that, today, English is the most practical language for international communication, scholarly or otherwise. This is not an ideological, political or imperial matter, but simply a pragmatic one. The current international importance of English is a fact, regardless of where that importance comes from. In that sense, India, with its familiarity with English, has a distinctive advantage over Latin America (and other regions) because, despite Macaulay's fantasies about pre-Columbian America and Spain, publishing in Spanish does prevent you from reaching a wider audience. I say this as someone who has published two Indological books in Spanish. Regarding your words: " Let us preserve bio-diversity, let us preserve the rare indigenous varieties of cultural crops! ," I agree completely of course, but there is a difference between publishing scholarly work in English instead of in one's native language in order to reach an international audience, and publishing in one's native language as a statement in support of that language (or to promote knowledge among the speakers of that language). In any case, they are not mutually exclusive. I concur with 'K' Dominik that it is "reductionist and essentializing to present Macaulay as the representative voice of Anglophone attitudes to India ..." And let us not forget how the expression "Macaulay's Children" is used in a derogatory way. Best, Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sat Mar 21 12:05:32 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 09 17:35:32 +0530 Subject: time to change the tune Message-ID: <161227085523.23782.5803729464481415160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Bijlert I regret that I was in a way responsible for the event since I had expressed my own disapproval of the debate in the forum in a personal mail to you. It is good that?sense has prevailed DB --- On Tue, 17/3/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: time to change the tune To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 17 March, 2009, 12:23 AM Some days ago I cautiously attempted the same warning. But instead of understanding I was met with barking from various sides at my temerity. This is precisely why a forum or discussionlist needs moderators. Greetings Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Verzonden: maandag 16 maart 2009 9:12 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: time to change the tune I find the use of the Indology list by our colleagues in Germany to be tiresome in the extreme and not to accord very well with the purposes for which Indology was established. If this continues much longer, I, for one, will withdraw my name from the subscription list. Perhaps a separate listserve dedicated to settling scores in Germany should be contemplated, so that those interested in this will have their own playpen. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/ From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Sun Mar 22 17:15:42 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 09 18:15:42 +0100 Subject: AW: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) Message-ID: <161227085537.23782.6937441497211392171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have great sympathy for Paolo Magnone's point. However, there is one aspect that I see differently. Paolo Magnone wrote: ... I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon matter-of-factness speaking in Macaulay's infamous "Minute on Indian Education" as there is typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual in Hegel's winged eulogy of India. ... To leave that heroic age of the beginnings (the age of the "Renaissance orientale", contributed to by many but eminently embodied by German Romanticism ... _______________________ With regard to Hegel, "German longing", Romanticism etc. it may be helpful to take a look at the chapter on Hegel in Wilhelm Halbfa?'s "Indien und Europa". Here are a few quotes from the English translation (1988): p. 86: [Hegel] sought advice and information from his colleague at the University of Berlin, the pioneer Sanskritist and linguist F. Bopp [and read H. T. Colebrooke's first essay "On the Philosophy of the Hindus"], .... [...but, it bears reminding:] p. 85: (...) Hegel was not an indologist. [Paolo Magnone correctly addresses Hegel as a philospher.] p. 95: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from his anti-Romantic attitude and his criticism of the Romantic glorification of India. However, F. Schlegel himself subsequently revised and modified his evaluation of the Indian tradition, and he distanced himself from the unqualified enthusiasm of his earlier statements. p. 85: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from that of the Romantics: He was one of the heirs, but also the most rigorous critic of the Romantic conception of India. What distinguishes his approach above all from that of the Romantics is his commitment to the present, and his sense of an irreversible direction of history. He does not glorify origins and early stages. The spirit of world history progresses to greater richness and complexity. What has been in the beginning cannot be richer and more perfect. It may be true that India, as part of the Orient, is a land of "sunrise," of early origins and "childhood." But this does not justify nostalgia and contempt of the European present. We cannot and need not return to the Orient: It is a matter of the past. ______ I may add that, so far, I have not come across a "German indologist" of any description who had a "typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual", or who wanted to reverse the course of history according to a presumed "Oriental" model. This is but a small illustration of the fundamental flaw of Raymond Schwab "Oriental Renaissance". As I have pointed out elsewhere: When Edward Said stumbled across Schwab's book, roughly two decades after its publication (1950), he decided that it had been "unreasonably ignored". This is one point on which I take the liberty to disagree with Said. Reinhold Gr?nendahl From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Sun Mar 22 17:35:42 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 09 18:35:42 +0100 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085541.23782.17966096233583965184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not wish to defend British policies from the days of the Company Raj, but I am only pointing to the fact that Macaulay edited the Indian Penal Code which is still in use in South Asia (with the necessary amendments). Moreover, Bengali Renaissance reformers like Raja Rammohun Roy, prince Dwarkanath Tagore and Vidyasagar were far more incisevely critical of the Brahmanical culture of their day than Macaulay ever could be. The fiercest critics of Indian culture were not the British but the Indian reformers themselves. Macaulay's Minute on education was fully endorsed by the then Hindu reformers. The Indian reformers themselves were clamoring for English education. I think we should not forget this fact. Presentday criticism of Macaulay may ultimately be used to tacitly endorse upper-caste Hindu reactionary world-views. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Gruenendahl, Reinhold Verzonden: zondag 22 maart 2009 18:16 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: AW: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) I have great sympathy for Paolo Magnone's point. However, there is one aspect that I see differently. Paolo Magnone wrote: ... I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon matter-of-factness speaking in Macaulay's infamous "Minute on Indian Education" as there is typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual in Hegel's winged eulogy of India. ... To leave that heroic age of the beginnings (the age of the "Renaissance orientale", contributed to by many but eminently embodied by German Romanticism ... _______________________ With regard to Hegel, "German longing", Romanticism etc. it may be helpful to take a look at the chapter on Hegel in Wilhelm Halbfa?'s "Indien und Europa". Here are a few quotes from the English translation (1988): p. 86: [Hegel] sought advice and information from his colleague at the University of Berlin, the pioneer Sanskritist and linguist F. Bopp [and read H. T. Colebrooke's first essay "On the Philosophy of the Hindus"], .... [...but, it bears reminding:] p. 85: (...) Hegel was not an indologist. [Paolo Magnone correctly addresses Hegel as a philospher.] p. 95: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from his anti-Romantic attitude and his criticism of the Romantic glorification of India. However, F. Schlegel himself subsequently revised and modified his evaluation of the Indian tradition, and he distanced himself from the unqualified enthusiasm of his earlier statements. p. 85: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from that of the Romantics: He was one of the heirs, but also the most rigorous critic of the Romantic conception of India. What distinguishes his approach above all from that of the Romantics is his commitment to the present, and his sense of an irreversible direction of history. He does not glorify origins and early stages. The spirit of world history progresses to greater richness and complexity. What has been in the beginning cannot be richer and more perfect. It may be true that India, as part of the Orient, is a land of "sunrise," of early origins and "childhood." But this does not justify nostalgia and contempt of the European present. We cannot and need not return to the Orient: It is a matter of the past. ______ I may add that, so far, I have not come across a "German indologist" of any description who had a "typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual", or who wanted to reverse the course of history according to a presumed "Oriental" model. This is but a small illustration of the fundamental flaw of Raymond Schwab "Oriental Renaissance". As I have pointed out elsewhere: When Edward Said stumbled across Schwab's book, roughly two decades after its publication (1950), he decided that it had been "unreasonably ignored". This is one point on which I take the liberty to disagree with Said. Reinhold Gr?nendahl From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sun Mar 22 18:53:30 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 00:23:30 +0530 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) Message-ID: <161227085544.23782.6886691967647658825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The thread may have been lost but perhaps the?question that brought in the topic of culture preservation was the inability of a large number of Indian Sanskritists to understand English. In fact this state of affairs is a creation of current politics. A language of international standing apart from one's mother tongue, must be a part of the curriculum in the University stage. This principle is followed in every civilized society where modern education has made a place for itself.[[Perhaps many in India might experience that?this is not true of Americans ie U.S. citizens. But perhaps, it is really not so. It seems untrue of Americans perhaps because poorly educated Americans too can afford to tour India. They too enter into Institutes of higher study. It is they who leave the poor impression. But the above principle seems to have been followed when one talks with a highly educated American.]] In India misplaced patriotism has been the reason for?banishing English as a compulsory subject?from the University curricula in some states.?Such steps might not greatly harm education?in countries where elaborate arrangement for translation and of quickly getting informed of the latest developments in research exists. This is not possible in India for many reasons -- copyright, prohibitive cost of getting permission, unwillingness of publishers to explore such possibilities. For example, R.H.Robins' General Linguistics has been translated into French. No Indian publisher ever thought of that.? As a result the abolition of English has increased the number of graduates but has?also?caused a severe lowering of the standard of education. Even most of the PhD theses produced in these states cannot be sent to states where a different language is spoken. It is forgotten that?one need not lose one's culture by preparing oneself to get acquainted with researches?being carried?on in the world outside India. On the contrary one enriches oneself and one's culture thereby.That was the reason, explicitly stated by the?reformers of Bengal?in the nineteenth century, for the then?emphasis on English education. Unfortunately,?the?condition is still valid and will remain so till India is industrially an advanced country.? DB ? --- On Sun, 22/3/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 22 March, 2009, 11:05 PM I do not wish to defend British policies from the days of the Company Raj, but I am only pointing to the fact that Macaulay edited the Indian Penal Code which is still in use in South Asia (with the necessary amendments). Moreover, Bengali Renaissance reformers like Raja Rammohun Roy, prince Dwarkanath Tagore and Vidyasagar were far more incisevely critical of the Brahmanical culture of their day than Macaulay ever could be. The fiercest critics of Indian culture were not the British but the Indian reformers themselves. Macaulay's Minute on education was fully endorsed by the then Hindu reformers. The Indian reformers themselves were clamoring for English education. I think we should not forget this fact. Presentday criticism of Macaulay may ultimately be used to tacitly endorse upper-caste Hindu reactionary world-views. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Gruenendahl, Reinhold Verzonden: zondag 22 maart 2009 18:16 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: AW: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) I have great sympathy for Paolo Magnone's point. However, there is one aspect that I see differently. Paolo Magnone wrote: ... I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon matter-of-factness speaking in Macaulay's infamous "Minute on Indian Education" as there is? typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual in Hegel's winged eulogy of India. ... To leave that heroic age of the beginnings (the age of the "Renaissance orientale", contributed to by many but eminently embodied by German Romanticism ... _______________________ With regard to Hegel, "German longing", Romanticism etc. it may be helpful to take a look at the chapter on Hegel in Wilhelm Halbfa?'s "Indien und Europa". Here are a few quotes from the English translation (1988): p. 86: [Hegel] sought advice and information from his colleague at the University of Berlin, the pioneer Sanskritist and linguist F. Bopp [and read H. T. Colebrooke's first essay "On the Philosophy of the Hindus"], .... [...but, it bears reminding:] p. 85: (...) Hegel was not an indologist. [Paolo Magnone correctly addresses Hegel as a philospher.] p. 95: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from his anti-Romantic attitude and his criticism of the Romantic glorification of India. However, F. Schlegel himself subsequently revised and modified his evaluation of the Indian tradition, and he distanced himself from the unqualified enthusiasm of his earlier statements. p. 85: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from that of the Romantics: He was one of the heirs, but also the most rigorous critic of the Romantic conception of India. What distinguishes his approach above all from that of the Romantics is his commitment to the present, and his sense of an irreversible direction of history. He does not glorify origins and early stages. The spirit of world history progresses to greater richness and complexity. What has been in the beginning cannot be richer and more perfect. It may be true that India, as part of the Orient, is a land of "sunrise," of early origins and "childhood." But this does not justify nostalgia and contempt of the European present. We cannot and need not return to the Orient: It is a matter of the past. ______ I may add that, so far, I have not come across a "German indologist" of any description who had a "typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual", or who wanted to reverse the course of history according to a presumed "Oriental" model. This is but a small illustration of the fundamental flaw of Raymond Schwab "Oriental Renaissance". As I have pointed out elsewhere: When Edward Said stumbled across Schwab's book, roughly two decades after its publication (1950), he decided that it had been "unreasonably ignored". This is one point on which I take the liberty to disagree with Said. Reinhold Gr?nendahl Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Mon Mar 23 14:34:04 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 07:34:04 -0700 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <25616_1237814166_1237814166_9C583450-2E75-4DFB-9C75-B51C0215984E@helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <161227085569.23782.3702542427596066480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many translations from Indian and non-Indian languages into Sanskrit have been published in Sanskrit periodicals right from the time of what is considered to be the first periodical in Sanskrit, namely The Pandit or Kaa;sii-vidyaa-sudhaa-nidhi. It has become very difficult to get the issues of several of these periodicals. Some library specializing in their acquisition as well as in the acquisition of the notebooks of highly regarded ;saastrins and pa.n.ditas (in original form or in copies) needs to be created. My efforts in this regard with the Ramkrishna Dalmia Shrivani Alankaran Nyaas Endowment (supporter of the most generous award for writing in modern Sanskrit of which am aware) in New Delhi have so far not been successful. ashok aklujkar From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Mon Mar 23 07:58:36 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 08:58:36 +0100 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: <816938.95789.qm@web8604.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085553.23782.15275626289708028774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not only the gradual loss of English is to be deplored. Also Sanskrit had been thrown out of the educational system in some Indian states, with the result that the knowledge of the vernacular State language also suffers. Many words in e.g. Hindi or Bengali are tatsama's. Spelling-errors also increasingly occur as a result of lack of knowledge about the word-formation of tatsama's. Many users of Indian languages are probably not even aware anymore of the parent language from which many of their loanwords have issued. Of course the Bengali reformers like Rammohun and Vidyasagar pleaded for English education (in English) but still knew their Sanskrit. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dipak Bhattacharya Verzonden: zondag 22 maart 2009 19:54 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) The thread may have been lost but perhaps the?question that brought in the topic of culture preservation was the inability of a large number of Indian Sanskritists to understand English. In fact this state of affairs is a creation of current politics. A language of international standing apart from one's mother tongue, must be a part of the curriculum in the University stage. This principle is followed in every civilized society where modern education has made a place for itself.[[Perhaps many in India might experience that?this is not true of Americans ie U.S. citizens. But perhaps, it is really not so. It seems untrue of Americans perhaps because poorly educated Americans too can afford to tour India. They too enter into Institutes of higher study. It is they who leave the poor impression. But the above principle seems to have been followed when one talks with a highly educated American.]] In India misplaced patriotism has been the reason for?banishing English as a compulsory subject?from the University curricula in some states.?Such steps might not greatly harm education?in countries where elaborate arrangement for translation and of quickly getting informed of the latest developments in research exists. This is not possible in India for many reasons -- copyright, prohibitive cost of getting permission, unwillingness of publishers to explore such possibilities. For example, R.H.Robins' General Linguistics has been translated into French. No Indian publisher ever thought of that.? As a result the abolition of English has increased the number of graduates but has?also?caused a severe lowering of the standard of education. Even most of the PhD theses produced in these states cannot be sent to states where a different language is spoken. It is forgotten that?one need not lose one's culture by preparing oneself to get acquainted with researches?being carried?on in the world outside India. On the contrary one enriches oneself and one's culture thereby.That was the reason, explicitly stated by the?reformers of Bengal?in the nineteenth century, for the then?emphasis on English education. Unfortunately,?the?condition is still valid and will remain so till India is industrially an advanced country.? DB ? --- On Sun, 22/3/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 22 March, 2009, 11:05 PM I do not wish to defend British policies from the days of the Company Raj, but I am only pointing to the fact that Macaulay edited the Indian Penal Code which is still in use in South Asia (with the necessary amendments). Moreover, Bengali Renaissance reformers like Raja Rammohun Roy, prince Dwarkanath Tagore and Vidyasagar were far more incisevely critical of the Brahmanical culture of their day than Macaulay ever could be. The fiercest critics of Indian culture were not the British but the Indian reformers themselves. Macaulay's Minute on education was fully endorsed by the then Hindu reformers. The Indian reformers themselves were clamoring for English education. I think we should not forget this fact. Presentday criticism of Macaulay may ultimately be used to tacitly endorse upper-caste Hindu reactionary world-views. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Gruenendahl, Reinhold Verzonden: zondag 22 maart 2009 18:16 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: AW: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) I have great sympathy for Paolo Magnone's point. However, there is one aspect that I see differently. Paolo Magnone wrote: ... I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon matter-of-factness speaking in Macaulay's infamous "Minute on Indian Education" as there is? typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual in Hegel's winged eulogy of India. ... To leave that heroic age of the beginnings (the age of the "Renaissance orientale", contributed to by many but eminently embodied by German Romanticism ... _______________________ With regard to Hegel, "German longing", Romanticism etc. it may be helpful to take a look at the chapter on Hegel in Wilhelm Halbfa?'s "Indien und Europa". Here are a few quotes from the English translation (1988): p. 86: [Hegel] sought advice and information from his colleague at the University of Berlin, the pioneer Sanskritist and linguist F. Bopp [and read H. T. Colebrooke's first essay "On the Philosophy of the Hindus"], .... [...but, it bears reminding:] p. 85: (...) Hegel was not an indologist. [Paolo Magnone correctly addresses Hegel as a philospher.] p. 95: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from his anti-Romantic attitude and his criticism of the Romantic glorification of India. However, F. Schlegel himself subsequently revised and modified his evaluation of the Indian tradition, and he distanced himself from the unqualified enthusiasm of his earlier statements. p. 85: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from that of the Romantics: He was one of the heirs, but also the most rigorous critic of the Romantic conception of India. What distinguishes his approach above all from that of the Romantics is his commitment to the present, and his sense of an irreversible direction of history. He does not glorify origins and early stages. The spirit of world history progresses to greater richness and complexity. What has been in the beginning cannot be richer and more perfect. It may be true that India, as part of the Orient, is a land of "sunrise," of early origins and "childhood." But this does not justify nostalgia and contempt of the European present. We cannot and need not return to the Orient: It is a matter of the past. ______ I may add that, so far, I have not come across a "German indologist" of any description who had a "typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual", or who wanted to reverse the course of history according to a presumed "Oriental" model. This is but a small illustration of the fundamental flaw of Raymond Schwab "Oriental Renaissance". As I have pointed out elsewhere: When Edward Said stumbled across Schwab's book, roughly two decades after its publication (1950), he decided that it had been "unreasonably ignored". This is one point on which I take the liberty to disagree with Said. Reinhold Gr?nendahl Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From mkmfolk at GMAIL.COM Mon Mar 23 16:14:40 2009 From: mkmfolk at GMAIL.COM (Mahendra Kumar Mishra) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 09:14:40 -0700 Subject: Gaja Sastra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085577.23782.17690470819277915731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gajasashtra and Aswa( horser ) sastra are two important palmleaf manuscripts in Indian which is ingored by the forest and Environment department . whata fun. if some westernscholar will recognise and recommend Indian academics and administration , then they will certainly work on it. It is nice that Indology is discussed by some scholars of India and abroad. I have collected a hatidhara geet ( howto capture the elephant ) froma folk singer whichis inOriya language. Itis all about the capturingof elehant . regards, Mahendra Mishra On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > A colleague in Anthropology asked me about new studies or translations of > Gaja Sastras -- on elephants in Sanskrit. I wonder whether any of you, more > up to date on elephants than I am, can provide some guidance. Thanks. > > Patrick Olivelle > -- Dr Mahendra Kumar Mishra State Tribal Education Coordinator, Orissa Primary Education Programme Authority, Unit- V Bhubaneswar 751001,India Residential Address: D-9 Flat Kalpana Area Bhubaneswar 751014,India phone 91+674-2310167(r) 094376-36436(m) From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 23 14:28:11 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 09:28:11 -0500 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085567.23782.5418121336404729096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If I am not mistaken, Ballantyne also produced some textbooks of Western logic and other subjects in Sanskrit, though these may not be precisely translations. I am sorry that I do not have the full references at my disposal as I write just now. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Mon Mar 23 14:30:31 2009 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 09:30:31 -0500 Subject: Gaja Sastra In-Reply-To: <20080122104709.22A77404@bonito.ulb.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227085574.23782.18074388010305083398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A colleague in Anthropology asked me about new studies or translations of Gaja Sastras -- on elephants in Sanskrit. I wonder whether any of you, more up to date on elephants than I am, can provide some guidance. Thanks. Patrick Olivelle From paolo.magnone at UNICATT.IT Mon Mar 23 09:22:04 2009 From: paolo.magnone at UNICATT.IT (Paolo Magnone) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 10:22:04 +0100 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085560.23782.16086535571818243207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends, I bitterly repent having ever quoted Hegel, and especially Macaulay, as it seems to have done nothing but distract from the main argument. Of course, it *is* > reductionist and essentializing to present Macaulay as the > representative voice of Anglophone attitudes to India [:] when you make an example, you might as well pick an extreme one to make your point stand out the better. In other words, Macauley was certainly not meant to represent the average anglophone attitude to India, but only to typify that attitude *at its worse*: I thought I had added enough cautionary words to make that clear. (I take Dominic Goodall?s subtle point on the suitability or otherwise of Macaulay to demonstrate matter-of-factness; I still think his parliamentary bombast must be some sort of matter-of-factness raised to visionary heights :-). As for Hegel, thanks to Reinhold Gr?nendahl for his clarification; however, here again, I was aware of Halbfa??s assessment of Hegel?s many-faceted relationship to India, but the interest of choosing Hegel for me lies exactly in that, although in many ways he was, as Glasenapp (quoted by Halbfa?) styled him, ?the prototype of the Westerner, who saw Western thought as the measure of all things? (but on the other hand, in the frame of his system of the progressive unfolding of the Spirit, his appreciation of what he regarded as a civilization of the past could not have been unreserved: as Greece itself, India must have been /aufgehoben/); still, in his ?Vorlesungen ?ber die Philosophie der Weltgeschichte? he could pronounce those words, displaying a cultural sensitivity which is far removed from Macaulay?s. As for there not (any longer) being German indologists with a longing for the ineffable, I suppose I shall have to take Gr?nendahl?s word, albeit not without regret :-) For in my opinion this is one of the worst blights upon much of present-day indology: while, for instance, the overwhelming majority of biblists are motivated by the thought that they are dealing with something extremely precious, it seems more and more (Western) indologists could not care less about the actual content of the Indian scriptures they are studying, but just treat them as a playground to display their methodological acumen. On the other hand, the deep sympathy towards the Orient that was once characteristic of German Romanticism need not necessarily have something to do with > [wanting] to reverse the course of history according to a > presumed "Oriental" model and I am at a loss to see that there should be an intrinsic connection between the two. To finally come to what interests me more, when Luis Gonzalez-Reimann reminds me that > [r]egardless of Macaulay fanciful opinion about the 'pre-eminence' of > English, the fact is that, today, English is the most practical > language for international communication, scholarly or otherwise. This > is not an ideological, political or imperial matter, but simply a > pragmatic one. excuse me, Luis, but this is a truism. How should I ignore this simple, ?pragmatic? fact? (although it is ironical that I should be brought back to pragmatism, which is a close kin to ?matter-of-factness?, exactly while I am denouncing its one-sidedness). Of course, we all write and publish and internationally communicate in English, and this same forum bears testimony to it. This is a very welcome *choice* we all have. But some would have us cease altogether from writing in anything but English for scholarly purposes, which ? to add one more consideration, apart from the perspective of cultural diversity ? would amount to effectively demoting our mother tongues to the level of vernaculars unfit for scientific discourse. And some are even going to the length of advocating the adoption of English for dissertations in all countries. Now, speaking of pragmatism, let us be pragmatic: how should a young student, who (with the levels of student literacy falling everywhere) is hardly at ease with his own mother tongue, be expected to handle a foreign language with all the subtlety and stylistic accomplishment that I (at least) insist on requiring? All we shall get is haphazard jobs, and we shall have rendered a poor service to indology and to the students themselves, who will have missed an unrepeatable opportunity to learn to wield their language beyond the elementary requirements of everyday life. (On the priceless pedagogical value of writing a dissertation, here in Italy we have an all-time classic, much popular with generations of students: Umberto Eco?s /Come si fa una tesi di laurea/). -- Paolo Magnone Lingua e letteratura sanscrita Universit? Cattolica di Milano Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net) From rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 23 14:40:18 2009 From: rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Rosane Rocher) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 10:40:18 -0400 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <20090323092811.BUK53108@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085572.23782.7455291852147577981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the translation program conducted at Banaras Sanskrit College under Ballantyne, see Michael S. Dodson's 2007 book (originally Cambridge dissertation), the contents of which may be obscured by its title /Orientalism, Empire, and National Culture: India, 1770-1880. / Rosane Rocher mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > If I am not mistaken, Ballantyne also > produced some textbooks of Western logic > and other subjects in Sanskrit, though > these may not be precisely translations. > I am sorry that I do not have the full > references at my disposal as I write > just now. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Mar 23 17:45:28 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 10:45:28 -0700 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: <49C754BC.2000904@unicatt.it> Message-ID: <161227085585.23782.3856650127951864805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Paolo, > excuse me, Luis, but this is a truism. How should I ignore this > simple, ?pragmatic? fact? (although it is ironical that I should be > brought back to pragmatism, which is a close kin to > ?matter-of-factness?, exactly while I am denouncing its > one-sidedness). Of course, we all write and publish and > internationally communicate in English, and this same forum bears > testimony to it. This is a very welcome *choice* we all have. Alright. > But some would have us cease altogether from writing in anything but > English for scholarly purposes, Then maybe I misunderstood you, I didn't see this as the main point you were making. And this is a very specific point. This is not what I was addressing. As I said, I see no conflict with using both English and another language. English for international communication, and the mother tongue for "national" communication. > which ? to add one more consideration, apart from the perspective of > cultural diversity ? would amount to effectively demoting our mother > tongues to the level of vernaculars unfit for scientific discourse. > And some are even going to the length of advocating the adoption of > English for dissertations in all countries. Not in Latin America, I can assure you. Maybe in some European countries. Europe is very multilingual in a way that other areas of the world are not. This is (or at least was) especially true of countries such as Holland, Denmark and others, where students learn other European languages from an early age. Decisions about the language dissertations are written in is a very specific topic. We have already heard that in Germany different universities have different rules regarding this. I can tell you that here, at the University of California, Berkeley, dissertations in the Department of Spanish, for example, can be written in Spanish. > Now, speaking of pragmatism, let us be pragmatic: how should a young > student, who (with the levels of student literacy falling everywhere) > is hardly at ease with his own mother tongue, be expected to handle a > foreign language A student at the graduate level, I think, must be able to read (not to master subtle and stylistic points for writing) a couple of languages that are important in the field. In the US, they are usually French and German, with Japanese coming more and more into the picture, especially for Buddhist studies. Russian and Italian may be acceptable in some departments depending on the specific topic of the research. Regards, Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Mar 23 18:05:27 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 11:05:27 -0700 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <49C79F52.1010405@sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227085588.23782.8988282930650537957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A text that should probably be included as the earliest extant translation into Sanskrit (as far as I am aware). is the /YavanajAtaka/ of Sphujidhvaja. It was written in the third century CE. It is purportedly a versified version of a prose translation of a Greek text on astrology composed in Hellenistic Egypt. According to David Pingree, the prose translation was carried out by Yavanezvara in the second century CE during the reign of the Saka ruler Rudradaman I of Ujjain. See vol 1:3 of: Pingree, David, ed. and trans. 1978. /The YavanajAtaka of Sphujidhvaja/. 2 vols. Harvard Oriental Series, 48. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann From sellmers at GMX.DE Mon Mar 23 11:09:39 2009 From: sellmers at GMX.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 12:09:39 +0100 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: <49C754BC.2000904@unicatt.it> Message-ID: <161227085562.23782.16432992171942698418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Looking back at the discussion so far, which has taken very interesting turns, it seems to me that there are two basic problems: P1: The problem, especially (but not only, it seems) for Indian colleagues, of reading indological works written in languages other than English. P2: The problem of cultural diversity that is endangered by a pervasive use of English in scholarly discourse. I take both problems to be genuine and serious ones. Unfortunately, the easiest way to solve P1, namely to switch to English altogether, would only worsen P2, so we seem to face a classical dilemma. But if we have a closer look at the situation, perhaps the dilemma is not so huge as it appears at first sight, and that is the point I would like to make: "Indology" is not a monolithic science, there are many different fields belonging to it. Now, in some of them, I would contend, switching to English would indeed greatly enhance scholarly exchange without doing much harm to cultural diversity. I have in mind topics like logic, grammar, textual history etc. But concerning other fields Paolo's remarks are highly valid. When one is dealing with poetry, certain philosophical or religious points and many other comparable, less "matter of fact" topics there can be hardly any doubt that the usage of just one language (be it English or any other) cannot but grossly reduce the quality of the discussion. Both reasons for that have already be mentioned: (1) the less-than-perfect command of English on part of the non-native speakers; (2) the loss of the specific hermeneutical perspectives that each language offers. The upshot is, in my mind, that someone planning to engage in international discussions of the second type should have at least a good passive command of a couple of modern and ancient Western and Indian languages. If a student does not want to spend that much time on learning non-Indian languages, he or she can still do a lot of important work in fields of the first type. (No degradation implied here, of course.) To be sure, in that way the dilemma is not solved, but at least somewhat mitigated. Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Mar 23 07:49:56 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 13:19:56 +0530 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085547.23782.14103497763428179930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Quite a few translations into Sanskrit??have been mentioned by members. The following may be added to the list if they have not already been mentioned by someone ? 1.Hayata: Sub.Arabic astronomy and geography; original version: Persian?Sanskrit translator: unknown; time: late medieval? ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.96, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1967 ? 2.Ukra Sub:mensuration,geometry; original: Greek? author: Saawajuusayuusa; translated by Nayanasukhopadhyaaya Jaipur, 1693 CE; ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.104, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1978 ? 3.Yantraraajavicaaravi.m;saadhyaayii Sub:construction of instruments for astronomy; original: Arabic; author: ?; translated by Nayanasukhopadhyaaya mentioned above; ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.108, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1979 ? The following Sanskrit work is not a translation but it was meant to help translators 4.Paarasiikaprakaa;sa Sub: bilingual grammar of Persian;author:Bihaari .K.r.s.nadaasa Mi;sra under Akbar's(1555-1604) patronage; ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.95, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1965 First puiblished from Varanasi in 1865; then ed.Weber,Berlin,1985; If these have already been brought to notice in these columns I express regret. DB ? ? ? ? --- On Thu, 19/3/09, Sven Sellmer wrote: From: Sven Sellmer Subject: Translations into Sanskrit To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 19 March, 2009, 5:53 PM Dear Colleagues, lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I would be curious to learn about the earliest translations into Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the full sense). Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Mar 23 07:53:34 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 13:23:34 +0530 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085550.23782.5726394296799423234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please read 'Weber,Berlin,1885'. --- On Mon, 23/3/09, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: Translations into Sanskrit To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 23 March, 2009, 1:19 PM Quite a few translations into Sanskrit??have been mentioned by members. The following may be added to the list if they have not already been mentioned by someone ? 1.Hayata: Sub.Arabic astronomy and geography; original version: Persian?Sanskrit translator: unknown; time: late medieval? ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.96, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1967 ? 2.Ukra Sub:mensuration,geometry; original: Greek? author: Saawajuusayuusa; translated by Nayanasukhopadhyaaya Jaipur, 1693 CE; ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.104, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1978 ? 3.Yantraraajavicaaravi.m;saadhyaayii Sub:construction of instruments for astronomy; original: Arabic; author: ?; translated by Nayanasukhopadhyaaya mentioned above; ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.108, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1979 ? The following Sanskrit work is not a translation but it was meant to help translators 4.Paarasiikaprakaa;sa Sub: bilingual grammar of Persian;author:Bihaari .K.r.s.nadaasa Mi;sra under Akbar's(1555-1604) patronage; ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.95, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1965 First puiblished from Varanasi in 1865; then ed.Weber,Berlin,1985; If these have already been brought to notice in these columns I express regret. DB ? ? ? ? --- On Thu, 19/3/09, Sven Sellmer wrote: From: Sven Sellmer Subject: Translations into Sanskrit To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 19 March, 2009, 5:53 PM Dear Colleagues, lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I would be curious to learn about the earliest translations into Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the full sense). Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl ? ? ? Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Mar 23 09:04:25 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 14:34:25 +0530 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) Message-ID: <161227085557.23782.11396857591946492351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Of course you are true Professor Bijlert. I had taken Sanskrit for granted forgetting that it is not.To tell the truth?in present Bengal language training itself is regarded as a?drudgery and unnecessary wastage of time and energy best avoided or bypassed or stuffed into a shortcut. As for?Sanskrit, many suffer from illusory visions of Sanskrit as an artificial language. Bleak times indeed DB --- On Mon, 23/3/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 23 March, 2009, 1:28 PM Not only the gradual loss of English is to be deplored. Also Sanskrit had been thrown out of the educational system in some Indian states, with the result that the knowledge of the vernacular State language also suffers. Many words in e.g. Hindi or Bengali are tatsama's. Spelling-errors also increasingly occur as a result of lack of knowledge about the word-formation of tatsama's. Many users of Indian languages are probably not even aware anymore of the parent language from which many of their loanwords have issued. Of course the Bengali reformers like Rammohun and Vidyasagar pleaded for English education (in English) but still knew their Sanskrit. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dipak Bhattacharya Verzonden: zondag 22 maart 2009 19:54 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) The thread may have been lost but perhaps the?question that brought in the topic of culture preservation was the inability of a large number of Indian Sanskritists to understand English. In fact this state of affairs is a creation of current politics. A language of international standing apart from one's mother tongue, must be a part of the curriculum in the University stage. This principle is followed in every civilized society where modern education has made a place for itself.[[Perhaps many in India might experience that?this is not true of Americans ie U.S. citizens. But perhaps, it is really not so. It seems untrue of Americans perhaps because poorly educated Americans too can afford to tour India. They too enter into Institutes of higher study. It is they who leave the poor impression. But the above principle seems to have been followed when one talks with a highly educated American.]] In India misplaced patriotism has been the reason for?banishing English as a compulsory subject?from the University curricula in some states.?Such steps might not greatly harm education?in countries where elaborate arrangement for translation and of quickly getting informed of the latest developments in research exists. This is not possible in India for many reasons -- copyright, prohibitive cost of getting permission, unwillingness of publishers to explore such possibilities. For example, R.H.Robins' General Linguistics has been translated into French. No Indian publisher ever thought of that.? As a result the abolition of English has increased the number of graduates but has?also?caused a severe lowering of the standard of education. Even most of the PhD theses produced in these states cannot be sent to states where a different language is spoken. It is forgotten that?one need not lose one's culture by preparing oneself to get acquainted with researches?being carried?on in the world outside India. On the contrary one enriches oneself and one's culture thereby.That was the reason, explicitly stated by the?reformers of Bengal?in the nineteenth century, for the then?emphasis on English education. Unfortunately,?the?condition is still valid and will remain so till India is industrially an advanced country.? DB ? --- On Sun, 22/3/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 22 March, 2009, 11:05 PM I do not wish to defend British policies from the days of the Company Raj, but I am only pointing to the fact that Macaulay edited the Indian Penal Code which is still in use in South Asia (with the necessary amendments). Moreover, Bengali Renaissance reformers like Raja Rammohun Roy, prince Dwarkanath Tagore and Vidyasagar were far more incisevely critical of the Brahmanical culture of their day than Macaulay ever could be. The fiercest critics of Indian culture were not the British but the Indian reformers themselves. Macaulay's Minute on education was fully endorsed by the then Hindu reformers. The Indian reformers themselves were clamoring for English education. I think we should not forget this fact. Presentday criticism of Macaulay may ultimately be used to tacitly endorse upper-caste Hindu reactionary world-views. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Gruenendahl, Reinhold Verzonden: zondag 22 maart 2009 18:16 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: AW: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) I have great sympathy for Paolo Magnone's point. However, there is one aspect that I see differently. Paolo Magnone wrote: ... I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon matter-of-factness speaking in Macaulay's infamous "Minute on Indian Education" as there is? typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual in Hegel's winged eulogy of India. ... To leave that heroic age of the beginnings (the age of the "Renaissance orientale", contributed to by many but eminently embodied by German Romanticism ... _______________________ With regard to Hegel, "German longing", Romanticism etc. it may be helpful to take a look at the chapter on Hegel in Wilhelm Halbfa?'s "Indien und Europa". Here are a few quotes from the English translation (1988): p. 86: [Hegel] sought advice and information from his colleague at the University of Berlin, the pioneer Sanskritist and linguist F. Bopp [and read H. T. Colebrooke's first essay "On the Philosophy of the Hindus"], .... [...but, it bears reminding:] p. 85: (...) Hegel was not an indologist. [Paolo Magnone correctly addresses Hegel as a philospher.] p. 95: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from his anti-Romantic attitude and his criticism of the Romantic glorification of India. However, F. Schlegel himself subsequently revised and modified his evaluation of the Indian tradition, and he distanced himself from the unqualified enthusiasm of his earlier statements. p. 85: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from that of the Romantics: He was one of the heirs, but also the most rigorous critic of the Romantic conception of India. What distinguishes his approach above all from that of the Romantics is his commitment to the present, and his sense of an irreversible direction of history. He does not glorify origins and early stages. The spirit of world history progresses to greater richness and complexity. What has been in the beginning cannot be richer and more perfect. It may be true that India, as part of the Orient, is a land of "sunrise," of early origins and "childhood." But this does not justify nostalgia and contempt of the European present. We cannot and need not return to the Orient: It is a matter of the past. ______ I may add that, so far, I have not come across a "German indologist" of any description who had a "typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual", or who wanted to reverse the course of history according to a presumed "Oriental" model. This is but a small illustration of the fundamental flaw of Raymond Schwab "Oriental Renaissance". As I have pointed out elsewhere: When Edward Said stumbled across Schwab's book, roughly two decades after its publication (1950), he decided that it had been "unreasonably ignored". This is one point on which I take the liberty to disagree with Said. Reinhold Gr?nendahl ? ? ? Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Mon Mar 23 13:15:47 2009 From: klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 15:15:47 +0200 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085565.23782.7231055626603365363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I have noted down following references. They hail from various sources and I have not seen all of the books myself. Translations from Indian Languages: CAKRAVARTI, R?jagop?la: Translated from Bengal? Bankim Candra Ca??op?dhy?y?s Candra?ekhar with new title as ?aivalin?. Mysore 1917. DESIKAN, S. N. Srirama: Sanskrit translations of Tamil and Telugu classics, e.g. Tirukkural Porutpal, Auvaiy?r, Tirupp?vai, Vemana, Padyamulu, Kamba R?m?ya?am B?lak?ndam, Pattuppattu, Ettuttokai. PARAM?NANDA Pa??it: A Sanskrit metrical version and Sanskrit commentary of Bih?r? L?l's Satsa?, published together with the original Braj text under the name ???g?rasapta?at?. Benares 1873. ?IROMA?I, S?t?r?ma Nay?c?rya: Tagore: G?t??jali. Translated from Bengal? into Sanskrit. 1917. VARADACHARYA (or -chari), S. T. G.: wrote books in Telugu, translated Telugu classics into Sanskrit. VARMA, Vikramadeva: R?macaritam?nasa. Translated from Tulas?d?sa?s Hind?. 1918. Translations from non-Indian Languages: AYYANGAR, M. R. Rajagopala: Sanskrit translation of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam. 1940. BROCKHAUS, Hermann: "?ber Homer's Ilias in Sanskrit", ZDMG 6, 1852, 108f. (cf. Brown, The prosody of the Telugu and Sancrit Languages. Madras 1827, 4). FLECHIA, Giovanni: "Versione sanscrita dell' episodio dantesco Francesca da Rimini", Ricordo ai colleghi indologi del Congresso orientalistico di Berlino. 1881. GODBOLE, Narayan Bal Krishna: ?sop's Fables translated into Sanskrit from the Mar?thi. Bombay 1877. MISRA, Sadal: compiled the Sanskrit Section in J. B. GILCHRIST: The Oriental Fabulist or polyglott Translations of Esop's and other ancient Fables from the English language into Hindoostanee, Persian, Brij B,hak,ha, Bangla, and Sunkrit in the Roman Character by various Hands, under the direction and superintendence of J.G., for the Use of the College of Fort William. Calcutta 1803. PAVOLINI, Paolo Emilio: translated into Sanskrit: "?vetadv?pag?th?m?lik?", GSAI 28, 1916-17, 167-177 (20 English poems). RO?R, Eduard, tr.: Mah?kavi Sek?p?r pra??ta n??aker marm?nur?pa Lembs?eler katipaya ?khy?yika anuv?dita ha?a. 2+ 212 p. Calcutta 1853 (Ch. Lamb's tales from Shakespeare). VARMA, R?jar?ja (1863?1918): prose translation of the Othello publ. as Udd?lakacarita. 1???. And does nobody remember Cappeller?: CAPPELLER, Carl: "Subh??itam?lik?. Eine Auswahl von Spr?chen deutscher Dichter in Sanskrit nachgebildet", Jahresbericht der Pfeiffer'schen Lehr- und erziehungsanstalt. Jena 1902, also in IA 1903 and as a separate publication. Yavana?atakam. (Hundert Sanskrit-Strophen nach griechischen Dichter). Jena 1903, also in IA 1905. Parsi Sanskrit (at least following translated from Avesta or Pahlavi): GEIGER, Wilhelm: habil.diss. Aogemada?c?, ein Parsentraktat in P?zend, Altbaktrisch und Sanskrit. 160 p. Erlangen 1878. JAMASP ASA, Kaikhusroo Dastur Minocher: diss. The Pahlavi-Pazend Text of the Aogemada?ca. MS. 1966, publ. as Aogemada?c?. A Zoroastrian Liturgy. 119 p. 54 pl. SWA 397. Vienna 1982 (with facs. of Pazand, Sanskrit and Gujarati versions). BHARUCHA, Ervad Sheriarji Dadabhai & M. P. KHAREGHAT, ed.: Arda- Gv?r?. Ed. by E.Sh.D.Bh. with Old Gujarati version by M.P.Kh. 100 p. Collected Sanskrit Writings of the Parsis 5. Bombay 1920. DHALLA, Maneckji Nusserwanji: ed. & tr. Khordah Avesta. 1. The Nyaishes of Zoroastrian Litanies. Avestan Text with the Pahlavi, Sanskrit, Persian and Gujarati versions. 12+235 p. Indo-Ir. Ser. 6. N.Y. 1908. F?HRER, A.: On Khordah-Avesta Of Nery?sangh, JBRAS 16:42, 1883, ??-??. SPIEGEL, Friedrich von: Grammatik der P?rsi-Sprache nebst Sprachproben. Lp. 1851 (P?zend, with several extracts from the P?zend M?n?g-? Xrad with Sanskrit and German translations). SACHAU, Eduard, ed.: ?Contributions to the knowledge of Parsee Literature?, JRAS 4, 1870, 229-283 (specimens of M?n?k-i ?rat in Pehlevi and Sanskrit). WEST, Edward William, ed.: Book of the Mainy?-i Khard. P?zand, Sanskrit, and English, with a Glossary. 1871. BHARUCHA, Ervad Sheriarji Dadabhai, ed.: Mainy?i Khard. Collected Sanskrit Writings of the Parsis 3. Bombay 1912. ANKLESARIA, Ervad Tehmuras Dinshaw: D?n?k-u mainy?-i Khard. Pahlavi, Pazand and Sanskrit Texts. Bombay 1913. BHARUCHA, Ervad Sheriarji Dadabhai, ed.: Skanda Gumani Gujara. 101 p. Collected Sanskrit Writings of the Parsis 4. Bombay 1913. SPIEGEL, Ludwig Friedrich Ernst von: ed. Neriosengh's Sanskrit- Uebersetzung des Ya?na. Herausgegeben und erl?utert. 249 p. Lp. 1861. BURNOUF, Eug?ne: Commentaire sur le Ya?na, l'un des livres religieux des Parses. 1-2. 153+592+196 & ??? p. P. 1833-35 (Yasna 1 in Avesta and Sanskrit with commentary). DEGHAN, K.: Der Awesta-Text Sr?? Ya?t (Yasna 57) mit Pahlavi und Sanskrit?bersetzung. 19??. KOSSOVI?, Kaetan Andreevi? (Cajetan Kossovich): ??etyre stat?i iz Zendavesty, s prisovokupleniem transkripcii, russkago i latinskago perevod, ob?jasnenij, kriti?eskih prime?anij, sanskritskago perevoda i sravnitel?nago glossarija?, Trudy vost. otd. arh. ob??. 8, 1861 (Yasna?). MILLS, Lawrence Heyworth: A Study of the Five Zoroastrian G?th?s, with the Zend, Pahlavi, Sanskrit, and Persian translations. 1-2. 1892-94. ------ Letter on an Avesta-Sanskrit Manuscript of Yasna in Oxford, AJPh 15, 1894, 120f. ------ ?Yasna XXVIII?, Festgruss Roth 1893, ??-??. ------ ?The Sanskrit Equivalent of Yasna XLIV?, Actes di XIe Congr?s intern. des Orientalistes, Paris 1997, 1 section 1899, 317-326. ------ ?The Ahuna Vairya from Yasna XXVII, 13, with its Pahlavi and Sanskrit translations?, JRAS 1910, 57-68, 641-657 (ed. and transl.). ------ ?Yasna XLIV, 1-10, a study prospective a new ed. of S.B.E. XXXI?, ZDMG 65, 1911, 325-335. ------ ?Yasna XLIV, 11-20, a study re a new ed.?, ZDMG 66, 1912, 461-468. ------ ?Yasna XXIX in its Sanskrit Equivalent?, Le Mus?on 13, 1912, 1-26. ------ The Yasna 29 and 31 in its Sanskrit Equivalents. Oxford 1914. ------ ?Yasna XXX?, ZDMG 68, 1914, 149-156 (in Sanskrit). ------ ?The Yasna 31?, Le Mus?on 15, 1914?, ??-??. ------ ?The Yasna 32, 1-8, in its Indian Equivalent?, JRAS 1915, 205-211 (ed. and transl. with notes). ------ ?The Yasna 32, 9-15, in its Indian Equivalent?, JRAS 1916, 103-112 (ed. and tr. with notes) . ------ ?The Yasna XLVIII, in its Indian Equivalent ?, JBRAS 24:3 (70), 1914-16, 596-603. ------ ?The Yasna 43, 1-6, in its Sanskrit forms?, JRAS 1917, 541-5??. ------ ?The Yasna 43, 7-16, in its Sanskrit forms?, JRAS 1917, 753-771. ------ ?Yasna XLVII of the G?th? Spe?t?mainyu rendered in its Sanskrit equivalents?, JRAS 1919, 15-23. TARAPOREWALA, Irach J. S.: "A Sanskrit version of Yasna IX", Sir Asutosh Mookerjee Silver Jubilee Volumes 3:2, Calcutta 1925. UNVALA, Jamshedji Maneckji: ed. with Pehlevi and Sanskrit translations: Neryosangh?s Sanskrit version of the H?m Ya?t (Yasna IX-XI), with the original Avesta and its pahlavi version. Ed. & transl. with notes and glossarial index. 15+199 p. Wien 1924. Bible and Christian literature, see YOUNG, Robert Fox: "Church Sanskrit: an approach of Christian scholars to Hinduism in the 19th century," WZKS 23, 1979, 205-231. The New Testament of Our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ: ??varasya sarvav?ky?ni. Tr. by Serampore Missionaries. 1-3. Serampore 1808-11. BALLANTYNE, James Robert: In Sanskrit: Genesis, chapters 1?3: The Bible for Pandits. fasc. 1. London & Benares 1860 (all published). YATES, William: Bible translations: Psalms in Sanskrit. 184? (in ?loka metre), some other parts in Sanskrit. WENGER, John: translated parts of the Bible (both OT & NT) into Sanskrit, some (e.g. Job) directly from Hebrew into Sanskrit metre. CAREY, William: Matthew 1-3 in his A Grammar of the Sungskrit Language. Serampore 1806, 895-901. BURRITT, Elihu: A Sanskrit Handbook for the fireside. L. 1876 (with the Sanskrit transl. of the Gospel acc. to John as exercise). MILL, William Hodge: translated into Sanskrit: Christa-sa?g?ta or History of Christ. Calcutta 1831, 2nd ed. 1837. ------ The Sermon on the Mount. 183?. WENGER, John: translated many hymns and tracts into Sanskrit and Bengali. John Muir wrote Christian and text books in Sanskrit, i.al. Indian history and English geography. Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D. Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Institute for Asian and African Studies PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 Email Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Mar 23 20:16:06 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 16:16:06 -0400 Subject: Gaja Sastra Message-ID: <161227085591.23782.900962428417954183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A recent useful work: Mahar.si Paalakaapya's Gaja'saastram with the Sanskrit commentary Bhaavasandar'sinii of Anantak.r.s.nbha.t.taaraka with an English translation and 136 illustrations of various elephants, edited by Dr. Siddharth Yeshwant Wakankar and Vaidya Prof. V. B. Mhaiskar; Delhi: Bharatiya Kala Prakashan, 2006. Regards, George -----Original Message----- >From: Patrick Olivelle >Sent: Mar 23, 2009 10:30 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Gaja Sastra > >A colleague in Anthropology asked me about new studies or >translations of Gaja Sastras -- on elephants in Sanskrit. I wonder >whether any of you, more up to date on elephants than I am, can >provide some guidance. Thanks. > >Patrick Olivelle From pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM Mon Mar 23 16:24:16 2009 From: pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM (Pankaj Jain) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 16:24:16 +0000 Subject: My fall 2009 online courses on Sanskrit and on Jainism Message-ID: <161227085579.23782.5150307417407422495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With immense gratitude to my supervisors and colleagues at NC State, I am excited to share that my two courses here will also have an online section. Thus, students from anywhere in the world can log into the class and can take these classes. I will greatly appreciate your help in letting any interested students know about these courses. _________________________________________________________________________ FOR THE FIRST TIME, An online UNIVERSITY COURSE ON JAINISM, an ancient Indian religion: >From Mahavira to Mahatma Gandhi: The Nonviolent Jain Traditions of India Rel 298-004 105 Withers Hall Wednesdays 6 ? 8.50pm _________________________________________________________________________ FOR THE FIRST TIME, An online UNIVERSITY COURSE ON SANSKRIT, an ancient classical Indian language: Sanskrit Course for 3 credits FL 295 ? 005 Tuesdays, Thursdays 1.30 to 2:45 pm 202, Poe Hall _________________________________________________________________________ For more info: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Pankaj Jain पंकज ज&#2374;न, Departments of Religion and Foreign Languages and Literatures, North Carolina State University. http://www.indicuniversity.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 23 16:19:14 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 17:19:14 +0100 Subject: SARIT project support letters Message-ID: <161227085582.23782.3016333466678077785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Richard Mahoney and I would like to thank all those of you who very kindly penned letters of support for the SARIT application that we are making to the British Association for South Asian Studies. They have all gone off to the committee now, and we await the decision with bated breath. Best wishes, and thanks again, Dominik Wujastyk and pp Richard Mahoney INDOLOGY website -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Tue Mar 24 01:31:41 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 18:31:41 -0700 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <49C7CF67.5060408@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227085594.23782.12901170584402952892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is another reference: /Arabic Astronomy in Sanskrit: Al-Birjandion Tadhkira II, Chaper 11 and its Sanskrit Translation/. Brill, Leiden, 2002. Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann From meulnbld at XS4ALL.NL Tue Mar 24 08:03:10 2009 From: meulnbld at XS4ALL.NL (G.J. Meulenbeld) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 09 09:03:10 +0100 Subject: Gaja Sastra Message-ID: <161227085597.23782.1305835495503640554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleague, A survey of he literature on gaja'saastra up to about CE 2000 can be found in my 'A history of Indian medical literature', vol. IIA, chapter 6: Authors and works on veterinary medicine, p.557--579. I hope this may be useful to your anthropology colleague. Jan Meulenbeld ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Olivelle" To: Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: Gaja Sastra >A colleague in Anthropology asked me about new studies or translations of >Gaja Sastras -- on elephants in Sanskrit. I wonder whether any of you, more >up to date on elephants than I am, can provide some guidance. Thanks. > > Patrick Olivelle > From jmdelire at ULB.AC.BE Tue Mar 24 09:42:42 2009 From: jmdelire at ULB.AC.BE (Jean-Michel Delire) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 09 10:42:42 +0100 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085600.23782.15285261910018278835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Concerning the translation of Arabic texts, especially in astronomy, there is also the following article : S.M.Razaullah Ansari, "Islamic Astronomy in India during 16th-18th Centuries and its Interaction with Traditional Indian Astronomy", pp.145-156, 500 Years of Tantrasangraha (ed.M.S.Sriram, K.Ramasubramanian, M.D.Srinivas), IIAS, Shimla, 2002 J.M.Delire, Alta?r Centre for the History of Science, University of Brussels From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Mar 24 17:09:14 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 09 13:09:14 -0400 Subject: Gaja Sastra Message-ID: <161227085606.23782.536121765913106215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I own a ms book on the diseases of elephants in some form of 'Hindi' or 'Rajasthani' in which the diseases are illustrated in the form of demons attacking the elephants. I think I have a complete set of rough and ready digitized images around somewhere. I saw a sheet or two of what appeared to be the same book on display in the Sanjay Sharma Museum and Research Institute, Jaipur. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Mar 24 13:56:49 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 09 19:26:49 +0530 Subject: Gaja Sastra Message-ID: <161227085602.23782.1718174488671527366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could you kindly give?the publication details to make the information more useful? DB --- On Tue, 24/3/09, G.J. Meulenbeld wrote: From: G.J. Meulenbeld Subject: Re: Gaja Sastra To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 24 March, 2009, 1:33 PM Dear Colleague, A survey of he literature on gaja'saastra up to about CE 2000 can be found in my 'A history of Indian medical literature', vol. IIA, chapter 6: Authors and works on veterinary medicine, p.557--579. I hope this may be useful to your anthropology colleague. Jan Meulenbeld ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Olivelle" To: Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: Gaja Sastra > A colleague in Anthropology asked me about new studies or translations of Gaja Sastras -- on elephants in Sanskrit. I wonder whether any of you, more up to date on elephants than I am, can provide some guidance. Thanks. > > Patrick Olivelle > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Mar 24 19:24:58 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 09 20:24:58 +0100 Subject: Gaja Sastra In-Reply-To: <31827.36397.qm@web8602.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085609.23782.1555329005975346039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> author = {Gerrit Jan Meulenbeld}, title = {A History of Indian Medical Literature}, publisher = {Egbert Forsten}, year = {1999--2002}, address = {Groningen}, note = {Volumes IA, IB, IIA, IIB, III}, isbn = {9069801248}, Link to publisher: http://tinyurl.com/c8uunf -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > Could you kindly give?the publication details to make the information more useful? > DB > > --- On Tue, 24/3/09, G.J. Meulenbeld wrote: > > > From: G.J. Meulenbeld > Subject: Re: Gaja Sastra > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Tuesday, 24 March, 2009, 1:33 PM > > > Dear Colleague, > > A survey of he literature on gaja'saastra up to about CE 2000 can be found in my 'A history of Indian medical literature', vol. IIA, chapter 6: Authors and works on veterinary medicine, p.557--579. > I hope this may be useful to your anthropology colleague. > > Jan Meulenbeld > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Olivelle" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 3:30 PM > Subject: Gaja Sastra > > >> A colleague in Anthropology asked me about new studies or translations of Gaja Sastras -- on elephants in Sanskrit. I wonder whether any of you, more up to date on elephants than I am, can provide some guidance. Thanks. >> >> Patrick Olivelle >> > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > From rospatt at BERKELEY.EDU Wed Mar 25 01:15:56 2009 From: rospatt at BERKELEY.EDU (Alexander von Rospatt) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 09 07:00:56 +0545 Subject: performing life-cycle rites for deities Message-ID: <161227085612.23782.13435569770609354703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I am studying Newar Buddhist consecration rituals for images, caityas and so on, I am wondering how much of a tradition of performing the sa?sk?ra life-cycle rites as part of such consecration rites there is outside (Newar) Buddhism. I am aware that such rites are indeed performed for the generation of Agni when installing the fire, but it is not clear to me to which extent the sa?sk?ras (not just conception and birth, but also further rites up to the wedding) are also performed for the consecration of images. The sa?sk?ras do form an integral part of the consecration ceremony performed in the ?aiva tradition preserved among the Newars. Hence, I suppose that such practice exists (or existed) also in other Hindu traditions, but I have no hard evidence in support. Any help to identify such evidence would be much appreciated. Alexander Rospatt ---------------- Alexander von Rospatt, Professor Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies Group in Buddhist Studies University of California 7233 Dwinelle Hall # 2540 Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 USA Phone: +1-510-6421610 Fax: +1-510-6432959 Email: rospatt at berkeley.edu From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR Wed Mar 25 10:49:08 2009 From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 09 11:49:08 +0100 Subject: TR: Poste de Prof. Paris III Message-ID: <161227085617.23782.15106282274455383618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Message d'origine----- De : Mondes Iranien et Indien [mailto:iran-inde at ivry.cnrs.fr] Envoy? : mercredi 25 mars 2009 11:04 ? : destinataires inconnus: Objet : Poste de Prof. Paris III http://www.univ-paris3.fr/1236271745172/0/fiche___actualite/&RH=ACCUEIL I - Liste des emplois publi?s pour l'Universit? PARIS 3 dont 15? PR Histoire et traditions textuelles de l?Inde et de l?Asie du Sud-Est 0856 Orient et Monde arabe II - Les candidatures s'effectuent par voie t?l?matique sur le site Internet du minist?re de l'enseignement sup?rieur et de la recherche : http://www.enseignementsup-recherche.gouv.fr, rubrique ?concours, emploi et carri?res? puis ?galaxie? du 03 mars 2009 ? 10h00, heure de Paris, jusqu'au 02 avril 2009 16h00, heure de Paris. III -La composition du dossier, est ? consulter sur l'arr?t? du 15 septembre 2008 - Journal Officiel du 23 septembre 2008, pour les MCF. et pour les PR : Les dossiers complets doivent ?tre adress?s par courrier postal avant le 02 avril 2009 avant minuit le cachet de la poste faisant foi, ? l'adresse suivante : Universit? Sorbonne Nouvelle - PARIS 3 Bureau du personnel enseignant - PR/MCF / Section/n? 17, rue de la Sorbonne - 75005 PARIS Aucun dossier ni document compl?mentaire ne sera pris en compte apr?s cette date. NB : La publication des emplois d'enseignants -chercheurs ne se fait plus au Journal Officiel, les candidats doivent se connecter sur le site du Minist?re de l'enseignement sup?rieur et de la recherche. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Mar 25 07:21:20 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 09 12:51:20 +0530 Subject: performing life-cycle rites for deities Message-ID: <161227085614.23782.11492612669261736375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 250309 Dear Professor Rospatt, The available descriptions do not confirm that the ritual representation of the samsk?ras is a general feature of Hindu initiation/initial rites. They are not enacted in the Vedic Agny?dheya. As far as I could study a meticulous representation will be missed also in the smaarta samskaaras. It is the professedly tantric fire generation, also called homa, in its pa?cop?san? variety that enacts with every detail. Perhaps it will be difficult to establish that they formed part of the initial ritual of? Buddhsit tantra from the beginning. Homa is Vedic after all. In the Buddhist tantric texts we do find reference to homa. It was also carried abroad with Buddhism. But this should reflect a late situation. I cannot help a bit of involuntary self propaganda in stating that matter in both the varieties came for discussion by me in the seventies. The pa?cop?san? variety was dealt with in some detail? in a chapter on the ??kta and Vaishnava tantric initiations in 'Mythological and ritual symbolism' (Calcutta 1984,chapters 4 and 5, pp.194-208; published ten years after writing). [I caution you that you will find the entire fourth chapter plagiarized in a multi-volume publication by Cosmo Publications that appeared in 1999. I got compliments from a well-wisher who judged that the plagiarism meant that my study had some worth. But you will miss a lot by consulting the material from the Cosmo publication. Its dropping of the fifth chapter means that the copyist had not understood the matter which would be incomplete and not fully intelligible from the fourth chapter alone.] The available K?lacakray?na material for the parallel seka was dealt with by me in 'The Catu.sk?ya doctrine in the mantranaya'(Journal of research, Visva Bharati, 1977-78). This is ascribed to N?rop?. That means even as late as the tenth century the sm?rta samk?ras, reported by you were missing in Buddhist mantranaya though one finds the word homa there. Perhaps this is enough Best for all Dipak Bhattacharya --- On Wed, 25/3/09, Alexander von Rospatt wrote: From: Alexander von Rospatt Subject: performing life-cycle rites for deities To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 25 March, 2009, 6:45 AM As I am studying Newar Buddhist consecration rituals for images, caityas and so on, I am wondering how much of a tradition of performing the sa?sk?ra life-cycle rites? as part of such consecration rites there is outside (Newar) Buddhism. I am aware that such rites are indeed performed for the generation of Agni when installing the fire, but it is not clear to me to which extent the sa?sk?ras (not just conception and birth, but also further rites up to the wedding) are also performed for the consecration of images. The sa?sk?ras do form an integral part of the consecration ceremony performed in the ?aiva tradition preserved among the Newars. Hence, I suppose that such practice exists (or existed) also in other Hindu traditions, but I have no hard evidence in support. Any help to identify such evidence would be much appreciated. Alexander Rospatt ---------------- Alexander von Rospatt, Professor Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies Group in Buddhist Studies University of California 7233 Dwinelle Hall # 2540 Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 USA Phone: +1-510-6421610 Fax: +1-510-6432959 Email:? rospatt at berkeley.edu Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 26 07:42:31 2009 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 09 07:42:31 +0000 Subject: Leiden Indological Summer School 2009 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085620.23782.6647524174309930651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [forwarded upon request, but without the flyer] Apologies for cross-postings! Dear Sir / Madam, We are happy to announce the fourth edition of the Leiden Summer School in Languages and Linguistics which will be held from 27 July - 7 August 2009 at the Faculty of Humanities of Leiden University. The Summer School offers a number of courses on a wide range of subjects in the field of languages and linguistics. This year, the Summer School will consist of seven programmes, including courses for beginners as well as for advanced students, taught by internationally renowned specialists: Indo-European Programme Germanic Programme Iranian Programme Indological Programme Semitic Programme Russian Programme Demotic Papyrology For more information and registration, visit: http://www.hum.leiden.edu/summerschool/ . Please do pass this message on to anyone possibly interested. We attach a flyer which can be put on a notice board. Yours sincerely, Alexander Lubotsky (director) Tina Janssen (organizer) Comparative Indo-European Linguistics Leiden University PO Box 9515 NL-2300 RA Leiden The Netherlands _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 26 19:52:32 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 09 15:52:32 -0400 Subject: Gaja Sastra Message-ID: <161227085623.23782.6327689851155785081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This was published in 2006: LC Control No.: 2005322092 Personal Name: Pa?laka?pya. Uniform Title: Gajas?a?stra. English & Sanskrit Main Title: Mahars?i Pa?laka?pya's Gajas?a?stram : with the Sanskrit commentary, Bha?vasandars?ini? of Anantakr?s?n?abhat?t?a?raka : with an English translation and 136 illustrations of various elephants / edited by Siddharth Yeshwant Wakankar & V.B. Mhaiskar. Published/Created: Delhi : Bharatiya Kala Prakashan, 2006. Description: xxii, 462 p. : ill. ; 23 cm. ISBN: 8180900169 CALL NUMBER: QL737.P98 P3613 2006 This is based on a ms prepared for the Rajas of Aundh in 1926 by Pdt. V. Vijayaraghavacharya, the English presumably done by the Pandit, and the black and white ills. being in the ms. It is not known what ms or mss it was based on. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 26 22:53:35 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 09 18:53:35 -0400 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085626.23782.10748186689529583600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to A. L. Mudaliyar, Bibliography of the books, papers & other contributions of Dr. V. Raghavan (Ahmedabad: New Order Book Co., 1968), p. 21-22, a work by V. Raghavan discusses some of these: V. Raghavan, Modern Sanskrit Writings, Adyar Library Series, No. P. 31 [sic]. Adyar, Madras: The Adyar Library Book and Research Centre, 1956. Also in Adyar Library Bulletin, 20 (1956), pp. 20-56. Amongst other modern writings in Sanskrit discussed by Raghavan, according to Mudaliyar, are "Sanskrit versions of the Bible, translations of of English works of Western authors and Indian authors...." I have a distinct but quite possibly false recollection that Raghavan wrote an article or pamphlet entitled "The Bible in Sanskrit," but I can't locate a copy anywhere online. Maybe a section from the above was published separately. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Fri Mar 27 06:08:09 2009 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 09 07:08:09 +0100 Subject: position in tibetan history and philology Message-ID: <161227085628.23782.3815397472256657234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the List, Applications are invited for a research professorate ("direction d'?tudes") in tibetan history and philology at the prestigious "Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes," IVe Section, Sciences historiques et philologiques, founded in 1868 and where among others Ferdinand de Saussure, Louis Renou and Jean and Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat have been teaching. A CV and publication list showing a very thorough background in tibetan history and philology are required; a solid knowledge of French is a prerequisite. For more information see the Bulletin officiel of the ministry of higher education of 9 March: http://www.enseignementsup-recherche.gouv.fr/pid20536/rubrique-bo.html?cid_bo=24193 -- Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Sciences historiques et philologiques, A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. JEMHouben at gmail.com www.jyotistoma.nl From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Mar 27 21:09:50 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 09 17:09:50 -0400 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085630.23782.5540258869654992707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is an anthology of Christian works in Sanskrit by Jean Calmette, S.J. (1692-1740), William Hodge Mill (1792-1853), John Muir (1810-1852), and Brahmabandhava Upadhyaya (1861-1907): LC Control No.: 96902803 Personal Name: Amaladass, Anand, 1943- Main Title: The Indian Christiad : a concise anthology of didactic and devotional literature in early Church Sanskrit / Anand Amaladass and Richard Fox Young. Published/Created: Anand, Gujarat, India : Gujarat Sahitya Prakash, 1995. Description: xviii, 378 p. ; 22 cm. It includes a section of "Common Prayers" attributed by the editors to Calmette, many of them standard Catholic prayers translated into Sanskrit, others original compositions. The editors believe these were at one time in actual use by South Indian Catholics, but that the memory of their use had been forgotten. The bibiography at the end contains a section Church Sanskrit, of published and ms works of the genre, and another Secondary Sources, including some other discussions of the subject. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Mar 28 07:43:19 2009 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 09 02:43:19 -0500 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085632.23782.11517656489882820840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I remember being told many years ago that Freud had been translated into Sanskrit, but have never seen such works, nor have any bibliographical information on them. Is anyone familiar with this? Also, there were obviously different motives for producing Sanskrit translations -- e.g., Christian missionaries trying to get out the "good word," or "back-translating" Chinese or Tibetan works whose Skt originals are no longer extant -- but some must have been done due to an interest and curiosity on the part of Sanskrit pandits themselves for accessible versions of stimulating works (such as, I would imagine, would be the case with works of de Saussure or Freud). Has anyone attempted an anthropology of Sanskrit translations, sorting out the different motives? Dan Lusthaus From garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG Sat Mar 28 18:19:31 2009 From: garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 09 19:19:31 +0100 Subject: JSAWS 11/1 Message-ID: <161227085634.23782.13269325080345766694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am happy to announce Vol. 11/1 of the new *Journal of South Asia Women Studies* (established in 1995) http://asiatica.org/ In this issue: Note from the Editor: The New Political Scenario in Nepal and in Afghanistan and The Fairy Tale of the ?Good Taliban? Paper: "Female Rishis and Philosophers in the Veda?", by Michael Witzel Book Reviews Summary of "Female Rishis and Philosophers in the Veda?" It is a traditional but common misconception that a considerable number of ?gvedic hymns were composed by women. Though female authors and interlocutors are not entirely absent from the Vedas, the role of 'literate' women in the ?gveda will have to be re-evaluated. The traditional names given for female ?gvedic authors include those derived from the wordings of the hymns but also personified Belief, Speech and a bitch. Enjoy it! Dr Enrica Garzilli Editor-in-Chief From pathompongb at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 29 06:47:36 2009 From: pathompongb at YAHOO.COM (Pathompong Bodhiprasiddhinand) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 09 23:47:36 -0700 Subject: Job at Mahidol University Message-ID: <161227085637.23782.15624666770500512183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, The Department of Humanities, Faculty of Social Sciences and Humanities, Mahidol University, Bangkok, is seeking a lecturer in (Indian/Tibetan) Mahayana Buddhism for an international PhD programme in Buddhist Studies. Applicants must be ready to teach several Sanskrit sutras, belonging to both Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions. For further details, please contact me off the list. Best wishes, Pathompong Bodhiprasiddhinand From eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 30 11:06:28 2009 From: eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 09 04:06:28 -0700 Subject: Devavanipravesika Sanskrit text is now available Message-ID: <161227085642.23782.543433345211696547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Devavanipravesika is now available from Motilal Banarsidass. Paperback price is Rs 395 ? Dean Anderson ? From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Sun Mar 29 20:56:43 2009 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 09 09:56:43 +1300 Subject: Fwd: [ACAT] OCLC Review Board Survey on Shared Data Creation and Stewardship Message-ID: <161227085639.23782.6227324989900162313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Almost all of us are completely dependent on OCLC derived bibliographic records so this current review should be of some interest. Best regards, Richard MAHONEY -----Forwarded Message----- From: "Schwitzner, Ted" To: AUTOCAT at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Subject: [ACAT] OCLC Review Board Survey on Shared Data Creation and Stewardship Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:50:35 -0500 Greetings colleagues, The OCLC Review Board on Shared Data Creation and Stewardship seeks the feedback of the library community on the existing guidelines for record use, the policy that was proposed in November 2008, and on uses of records. Please see the message below from the Review Board Chair, Jennifer Younger, that will provide more information about the survey. Please pardon the duplication of this message, as the Review Board hopes to reach all those interested in this issue. Please feel free to redistribute. Thank you for your time and input, Ted Schwitzner OCLC Members Council Delegate (ILLINET) and Review Board Member Dear Colleague: As chair of the OCLC Review Board of Shared Data Creation and Stewardship, I invite you to participate in a Web-based survey among librarians and other interested constituents. The primary goal of this survey is to gather input from both OCLC members and non-members about a proposed OCLC policy, Policy for Use and Transfer of WorldCat(r) Records. The Review Board will consider the results of this survey in its recommendations to OCLC. Please review the existing guidelines and proposed policy if you have not already done so: * Guidelines: http://www.oclc.org/support/documentation/worldcat/records/guidelines/default.htm * Proposed Policy: http://www.oclc.org/worldcat/catalog/policy/recordusepolicy.pdf The OCLC Review Board is an independent committee convened by the OCLC Board of Trustees and the OCLC Members Council. If you wish to find out more about the Review Board, please visit these links: * OCLC Review Board: http://www.oclc.org/worldcat/catalog/policy/board/default.htm * Press release - formation of Review Board: http://www.oclc.org/us/en/news/releases/20092.htm * Press release - Review Board members: http://www.oclc.org/us/en/news/releases/200910.htm The survey is available online at the following site, where you will find specific instructions on completing the survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=c0hILWPafv97EDbNiRXXjg_3d_3d I invite you to complete this survey yourself or forward it to a colleague with an interest in this issue. Your opinions and comments are vital to our evaluation, regardless of your current level of usage of OCLC services or your relationship to OCLC. Please complete the questionnaire online by April 8, 2009. To protect the confidentiality of your responses, all data will be collected, tabulated, and analyzed by Linray, an independent market research consultant. We will receive data in aggregate form only; your answers will not be associated in any way with you or your organization. If you have questions about the content of the survey, please send an e-mail to reviewboard at oclc.org. As an alternative to the survey, we welcome your feedback by sending an e-mail to reviewboard at oclc.org or posting comments at http://community.oclc.org/reviewboard/. Please feel free to provide input in the language of your choice. Thank you for your participation in this survey. Sincerely, Jennifer A. Younger Chair, OCLC Review Board of Shared Data Creation and Stewardship Director, Hesburgh Libraries University of Notre Dame *********************************************************************** AUTOCAT quoting guide: http://www.cwu.edu/~dcc/Autocat/copyright.html E-mail AUTOCAT listowners: autocat-request at listserv.syr.edu Search AUTOCAT archives: http://listserv.syr.edu/archives/autocat.html By posting messages to AUTOCAT, the author does not cede copyright *********************************************************************** -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology