From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Jun 1 20:09:26 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 09 15:09:26 -0500 Subject: A K Chatterjee In-Reply-To: <3CDA3001BEBD410BBB5EEC13409ACF32@zen> Message-ID: <161227086615.23782.15852390800228725180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I shudder to send out the same query twice, but as there were no takers first time around, I thought to try again: Does anyone have any information regarding what became of Prof. A. K. Chatterjee, a specialist on Buddhist Yogacara philosophy, following his retirement from Benares Hindu University about two decades ago? with thanks, Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Mon Jun 1 13:22:53 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 09 15:22:53 +0200 Subject: The (silent) Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: <010c01c9e0f8$2f8d9950$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <161227086599.23782.13680906600684473529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Glasenapp (Phil.d.Ind. 111) reports having seen a movie about Shankara's life in Calcutta in 1928. Given the date it must have been a silent movie and apparently a very long one (the screening took all night). Best wishes EF ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE Mon Jun 1 15:30:36 2009 From: zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 09 17:30:36 +0200 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086607.23782.12574808216027594488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan Silk schreef: > Dear Colleagues, > > I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi > Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) feature film > in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or > others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? I confess I only > watched a few minutes of it, and while there's a lot of chanting of > classical texts, there is also some speaking ("conversational Sanskrit?") as > well (is this the place to confess?--thank goodness for the subtitles!). I > am also curious whether the film-makers tried to get the cultural contexts > right.... > This of course depends on what one considers 'right'. G.V. Iyer was not a historian but a traditionalist and a cinematographic artist, and his intention was not to do Western-style historical research. I know that it was a tremendous hit in brahminical circles in Karnataka (it was screened by many a 'br?hma?a sa?gha' in various towns). Iyer first had the dialogues written by one pandita in Bangalore, but he was not quite pleased with what he thought was the 'naturalness' of the quality fo the language, and then he requested Bannanje Govindacharya of Udupi, the leading M?dhva scholar, to rewrite the dialogues - which Govindacharya did on the condition that a similar film would be made later on Madhva also, to which Iyer happily agreed. Govindacharya also participated in writing the scripts for the Madhvacharya and Bhagavadgita films by Iyer. (By the way, an interview done by me with Govindacharya - of course in Sanskrit, but about his Sanskrit writings, not about the films - is due to appear in the maiden issue of the M?nchener Indologische Zeitschrift, which hopefully may appear in another month or two.) RZ -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Department fuer Asienstudien - Institut fuer Indologie und Tibetologie Universitaet Muenchen Deutschland Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos From zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE Mon Jun 1 15:32:42 2009 From: zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 09 17:32:42 +0200 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: <20090524033546.BYB86057@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227086605.23782.8988848102098196098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU schreef: > (For the flip-side of this view of brahmanism down south, > there's always Anathamurthy's novel Samskara and the film > Girish Karnad based on it...) Small correction: the film was by the late Pattabhi Rama Reddy. Girish Karnad played the role of the main character. RZ -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Department fuer Asienstudien - Institut fuer Indologie und Tibetologie Universitaet Muenchen Deutschland Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos From zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE Mon Jun 1 15:43:48 2009 From: zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 09 17:43:48 +0200 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086602.23782.8145155891679178226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter Wyzlic schreef: > There is a German Ph.D. thesis on this film: > > Mangold, Sylvia: ?di ?a?kar?c?rya? : G. V. Iyers Filmkommentar zur > Religionsphilosophie ?a?karas. - Frankfurt am Main [et al.] : Lang, > 1994. - XII, 248 p. - (Theion ; 4). - ISBN 3-631-47352-4 > Frankfurt (Main), Univ., Diss., 1993 - which is rather curious. When I visited Iyer in 1997, I found the book on his bookshelf. He had not read it, since it was in German. I read a few pages and found the remark that Iyer, though born an Advaitin, had become a Dvaitin and made the Madhva film. When I translated those lines to him, he heaved his shoulders slowly and remarked that scholars make all sorts of marvellous discoveries, including biographical details about him which he himself did not know about. RZ -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Department fuer Asienstudien - Institut fuer Indologie und Tibetologie Universitaet Muenchen Deutschland Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jun 1 17:14:52 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 09 19:14:52 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit IAST data entry tool In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086610.23782.4886907518934805183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You may find something helpful here: http://www.ebmp.org/p_dwnlds.php On Fri, 29 May 2009, JAGANADH GOPINADHAN wrote: > > Dear friends > Which is the best tool to data entry Sanskrit text in IAST from(Unicode). > e.g Text with diacritics. (A????gah?daya) > Please provide the name of font and tool can be used to enter Devanagari text in the above given format. > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ > JAGANADH.G > LINGUIST > HDG-LTS > C-DAC > VELAYAMBALAM > THIRUVANANTHAPURAM > P-H+91 9895420624 > E-MAIL- jaganadh at cdactvm.in,navadipanyaya at hotmail.com/jaganadhg at gmail.com > http://sabdabodha.googlepages.com > www.malayalammorph.blogspot.com > www.malayalamresourceceter.org > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Planning the weekend ? Here?s what is happening in your town. > http://msn.asklaila.com/events/ From rdavidson at MAIL.FAIRFIELD.EDU Tue Jun 2 00:55:38 2009 From: rdavidson at MAIL.FAIRFIELD.EDU (Ronald Davidson) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 09 20:55:38 -0400 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086624.23782.3025531338694929329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Furthermore, even if Yale printed in the book "(C) Yale Univ." etc., it > doesn't go without saying that they actually own the copyright, unless > they can produce documentary proof that Edgerton actually transferred his > automatically-assigned authorial copyright to them. Being a big > professional outfit (?), YUO probably does have documentation. Still, > it's worth asking, if you're getting in touch. For some reason I ended up with an original copy of Edgerton. Curious with all the discussion, I checked in my copy. Suffice it to say there is no copyright notice in my copies of either the grammar or dictionary. It merely gives the editorial board at Yale, the title page of the grammar and dictionary, the publisher of New Haven: Yale U. Pr, 1953 and a sub-publisher of London: Geoffrey Cumberlege, Oxford University Press. On the reverse of the title page, where the copyright notice is usually found, it simply provides the Library of Congress cat. card no. (2-12072), Printed in Denmark, Bianco Lunos Bogtrykkeri. Not being an attorney, I really have no idea what all this means. But if a copyright notice is required in the book somewhere, it is simply not there. Best wishes, Ron Davidson From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Mon Jun 1 20:28:30 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 09 22:28:30 +0200 Subject: The (silent) Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: <20090601152253.684669ujc5jn0mr1@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227086617.23782.5554925171699255706.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > Glasenapp (Phil.d.Ind. 111) reports having seen a movie about > Shankara's life in Calcutta in 1928. Given the date it must have been > a silent movie and apparently a very long one (the screening took all > night). > Best wishes > EF > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > This would have been "Shankaracharya" by Kaliprasad Ghosh (born 1889), which came out in 1927. The IMDB even has a cast list for it (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0215181/), but n information about its length ... Best, Birgit Kellner From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jun 1 20:39:15 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 09 22:39:15 +0200 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: <20090530220150.GA5474@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086620.23782.8874559780083886444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would certainly assume that Yale kept the copyright and sub-licensed MLBD to publish. Furthermore, even if Yale printed in the book "(C) Yale Univ." etc., it doesn't go without saying that they actually own the copyright, unless they can produce documentary proof that Edgerton actually transferred his automatically-assigned authorial copyright to them. Being a big professional outfit (?), YUO probably does have documentation. Still, it's worth asking, if you're getting in touch. Publishers sometimes assume and print copyright assertions when they don't have them. This happened to me, with my Metarules book. I was clear from the start that I wished to retain copyright, and I never licensed it to the publisher, but when the book came out, the publisher added a line claiming copyright, even though he doesn't have it. (I have a good relationship with the publisher, there's no animus here, but it was a bit of a fast one.) -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Sat, 30 May 2009, Stefan Baums wrote: > Regarding Andrew?s comments on BHSD, let me add that I would be > happy to commit further resources to a complete digitization if > and only if we are legally clear. Maybe somebody with connections > at Yale could politely inquire? The Motilal reprint on my desk > says ?By arrangement with Yale University Press, New Haven,? so > that seems to be a licensed print for the Indian market, not a > transfer of copyright. > > Cheers, > Stefan > > From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Mon Jun 1 22:50:15 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 09 23:50:15 +0100 Subject: gzhi gsum Message-ID: <161227086622.23782.14154947065908198010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Matthew, I can see you are really trying to help, but no Waldschmidt does not help either ~ the Mahaparinirvana-sutra he edited is the Sarvastivadin one, not the Mahayana version. There are fragments of 24 folios of the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana-sutra, but my gzhi gsum does not occur in any of them, alas. However, I think I have found the term as "tri-vastu", as I had suspected, in the Divyavadana. Anyway, thnaks for your thoughts ! Best wishes, Stephen Hodge ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 9:14 AM Subject: Re: gzhi gsum Dear Stephen, It's indeed an interesting locution, particularly given that the source text is Indic. I suspect you're right to think that vastu is a better candidate than bhaava, but have you ruled out aazraya? In any case, if the Chinese versions are using sanbao throughout, they're of no help at all here. Do you find anything in the Turfan fragments edited by Waldschmidt? Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris= From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Mon Jun 1 18:38:14 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (Veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 09 00:08:14 +0530 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: <4A23F41C.3080408@uni-muenchen.de> Message-ID: <161227086613.23782.9237651130024084900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> it is true that these films created some hype at the beginning. but it was very shortlived. when Madhvacharya was released sometimes in late 80s I was quite young and it had several screeings but then I got no second opportunity to see it till the date. since it was in sanskrit people felt uneasy to understand. moreover coming from modernist like GV Iyer many orthodox people frowned upon such films also. it did not quite fall on the so called traditionalists. But I think GV Iyer, going by his talks I heard personally, was not very much interested to get the cultural contexts right.....Nor he was getting to do some kind of revivalism. but do something new in the cinematography. hence there is no much context for the flip side of his sanskrit films. it is only because of his love for films he made these things. and he wanted do make them artistically as fas as possible. otherwise he could have made them in regional language and hit the box office. 2009/6/1 Robert Zydenbos > Jonathan Silk schreef: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi >> Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) feature >> film >> in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or >> others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? I confess I only >> watched a few minutes of it, and while there's a lot of chanting of >> classical texts, there is also some speaking ("conversational Sanskrit?") >> as >> well (is this the place to confess?--thank goodness for the subtitles!). I >> am also curious whether the film-makers tried to get the cultural contexts >> right.... >> >> > > This of course depends on what one considers 'right'. G.V. Iyer was not a > historian but a traditionalist and a cinematographic artist, and his > intention was not to do Western-style historical research. I know that it > was a tremendous hit in brahminical circles in Karnataka (it was screened by > many a 'br?hma?a sa?gha' in various towns). Iyer first had the dialogues > written by one pandita in Bangalore, but he was not quite pleased with what > he thought was the 'naturalness' of the quality fo the language, and then he > requested Bannanje Govindacharya of Udupi, the leading M?dhva scholar, to > rewrite the dialogues - which Govindacharya did on the condition that a > similar film would be made later on Madhva also, to which Iyer happily > agreed. Govindacharya also participated in writing the scripts for the > Madhvacharya and Bhagavadgita films by Iyer. (By the way, an interview done > by me with Govindacharya - of course in Sanskrit, but about his Sanskrit > writings, not about the films - is due to appear in the maiden issue of the > M?nchener Indologische Zeitschrift, which hopefully may appear in another > month or two.) > > > RZ > > -- > Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Department fuer Asienstudien - Institut fuer Indologie und Tibetologie > Universitaet Muenchen > Deutschland > Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 > Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 > http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Jun 2 02:06:10 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 09 07:36:10 +0530 Subject: A K Chatterjee Message-ID: <161227086628.23782.6469855717807837177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sorry to say that the persons from whom I came to know of Dr.Chatterjee in 1972 and his works are all dead. I may try but this may take time.?Please go on with your own search. If I?get anything that couldour?help I will let you know. Best of luck! DB --- On Tue, 2/6/09, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: A K Chatterjee To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 2 June, 2009, 1:39 AM I shudder to send out the same query twice, but as there were no takers first time around, I thought to try again: Does anyone have any information regarding what became of Prof. A. K. Chatterjee, a specialist on Buddhist Yogacara philosophy, following his retirement from Benares Hindu University about two decades ago? with thanks, Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Jun 2 02:11:46 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 09 07:41:46 +0530 Subject: Fw: Re: A K Chatterjee Message-ID: <161227086630.23782.16017920139397956727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- On Tue, 2/6/09, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: A K Chatterjee To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 2 June, 2009, 7:36 AM Dear Dr. Kapstein, I am sorry to say that the persons from whom I came to know of Dr.Chatterjee? and his works in 1972 are all dead. I may try but this may take time.?Please go on with your own search. If I?get anything that could?help I will let you know. Best of luck! DB --- On Tue, 2/6/09, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: A K Chatterjee To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 2 June, 2009, 1:39 AM I shudder to send out the same query twice, but as there were no takers first time around, I thought to try again: Does anyone have any information regarding what became of Prof. A. K. Chatterjee, a specialist on Buddhist Yogacara philosophy, following his retirement from Benares Hindu University about two decades ago? with thanks, Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris ? ? ? Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Tue Jun 2 17:27:15 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 09 10:27:15 -0700 Subject: Manuscript glosses In-Reply-To: <19737_1243961919_1243961919_73D4AF097CD44994A7658FF09AE4804D@zen> Message-ID: <161227086636.23782.303595615241336189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the name avacuur.ni/nii used for a commentary or subcommentary type, the intention behind using the prefix ava could originally have been to suggest that the glosses are written below -- below the lines or in the lower parts of pages. I recall seeing mss where the avacuur.ni was written in the lower parts of pages, but I do not recall if the mss concerned were old or recent. The avacuur.ni/.nii type seems to have been more common among the Jains and in the central-western part of India (Gujarat-Rajasthan area). My impression, however, is that corrections, additions and glosses are more commonly written in the left and right margins. ashok aklujkar From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Jun 2 19:11:32 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 09 12:11:32 -0700 Subject: Manuscript glosses In-Reply-To: <73D4AF097CD44994A7658FF09AE4804D@zen> Message-ID: <161227086639.23782.4083707578264910257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stephen, > from what I have seen of the early Gandhari mss, interlinear > notes in them seem to be all above the word / phrase. yes, that is correct. Additions are generally made above the line they belong to, sometimes with a little mark indicating the insertion point, but more often not. In that case it can be a little unclear which ak?aras precisely an insertion is meant to go between, but in general an effort is made to align the right edge of the insertion (i.e., its beginning, the general writing direction being from right to left) with the insertion point. In a few exceptional cases corrections are made in a way that could be called below the line, but since all of these latter ones are very short (often only one ak?ara) it may be better to think of them as anchored to an individual ak?ara rather than the line. Cheers, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Jun 3 00:23:47 2009 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 09 17:23:47 -0700 Subject: Manuscript glosses Message-ID: <161227086651.23782.12697984566287124425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There may be some further information on this topic in S.M. Katre's Indian Textual Criticism. (If this was mentioned previously, please excuse.) Rich Salomon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Witzel" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:37 PM Subject: Re: Manuscript glosses > Corrections are written on any margin: left, right, top or bottom and > usually marked by a small cross (looks like this +), kakapada, or also > some other sign(s). > > This can be found from Kashmir to Comorin, whatever the script. (Not to > be confused with secondary word dividers or Vedic accents). > > Sometimes also found above the word, especially as small glosses, > tippani. In old MSS and in more recent ones. (I have seen it in those > from c. 1150-1800, don't remember it for older ones such as the > Skandapurana from Nepal, early 9th c., or Gandhara and Xinjiang MSS). > > Paleontologists have discussed this before, since Buehler. A nice list is > found in a local Nepalese paleography which I do not have at hand now. > > Cheers, > Michael > > > On Jun 2, 2009, at 1:27 PM, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > >> In the name avacuur.ni/nii used for a commentary or subcommentary type, >> the >> intention behind using the prefix ava could originally have been to >> suggest >> that the glosses are written below -- below the lines or in the lower >> parts >> of pages. I recall seeing mss where the avacuur.ni was written in the >> lower >> parts of pages, but I do not recall if the mss concerned were old or >> recent. >> >> The avacuur.ni/.nii type seems to have been more common among the Jains >> and >> in the central-western part of India (Gujarat-Rajasthan area). >> >> My impression, however, is that corrections, additions and glosses are >> more >> commonly written in the left and right margins. >> >> ashok aklujkar > > ============ > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > > Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 > 8571; > my direct line: 617- 496 2990 > From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jun 2 21:37:37 2009 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 09 17:37:37 -0400 Subject: Manuscript glosses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086642.23782.15905436759564474545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Corrections are written on any margin: left, right, top or bottom and usually marked by a small cross (looks like this +), kakapada, or also some other sign(s). This can be found from Kashmir to Comorin, whatever the script. (Not to be confused with secondary word dividers or Vedic accents). Sometimes also found above the word, especially as small glosses, tippani. In old MSS and in more recent ones. (I have seen it in those from c. 1150-1800, don't remember it for older ones such as the Skandapurana from Nepal, early 9th c., or Gandhara and Xinjiang MSS). Paleontologists have discussed this before, since Buehler. A nice list is found in a local Nepalese paleography which I do not have at hand now. Cheers, Michael On Jun 2, 2009, at 1:27 PM, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > In the name avacuur.ni/nii used for a commentary or subcommentary > type, the > intention behind using the prefix ava could originally have been to > suggest > that the glosses are written below -- below the lines or in the > lower parts > of pages. I recall seeing mss where the avacuur.ni was written in > the lower > parts of pages, but I do not recall if the mss concerned were old > or recent. > > The avacuur.ni/.nii type seems to have been more common among the > Jains and > in the central-western part of India (Gujarat-Rajasthan area). > > My impression, however, is that corrections, additions and glosses > are more > commonly written in the left and right margins. > > ashok aklujkar ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line: 617- 496 2990 From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Tue Jun 2 17:00:48 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 09 18:00:48 +0100 Subject: Manuscript glosses Message-ID: <161227086633.23782.13181132245468875121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, Something for the manuscriptologists. My understanding is that interlinear annotations of various kinds, such as glosses or corrections, may be found in Sanskrit etc manuscripts written either above or below the relevent word or phrase. Writing an annotation below the word / phrase seems counter-intuitive to me, but I suppose there may be reasons for that approach. I have found traces of this in translations of early Buddhist texts, where glossing annotations have wrongly been incorporated (that is, as though they were textual corrections) into the text at a position roughly one line down from where they should really be. This suggests that not all scribes were familar with the sub-linear mode of annotation. However, I am interested to know whether there was any basis for using one or the other styles. That is to say, were mss with sub-linear notes more common in certain regions of India and not others ? Would, for example, sub-linear annotation be characteristic of South Indian mss. Or is there perhaps a historical aspect to this, with preferences varying at different times ? As far as Buddhist mss go, from what I have seen of the early Gandhari mss, interlinear notes in them seem to be all above the word / phrase. Is my impression about this correct ? The value of this is that if one annotator only put his remarks below the line, while somebody else always put his above the line, according to their scribal tradition, we have a useful way of untangling, to some degree, the transmissional strata with the ever-present process of accretion. Any comments would be welcome ! Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Jun 3 02:22:12 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 09 19:22:12 -0700 Subject: Manuscript glosses In-Reply-To: <5FAB65165D2143D38524039627E4A480@zen> Message-ID: <161227086657.23782.5638388860577786282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stephen, two more things come to mind re scribbling in margins: (1) the earlier part of the British Library Sa?g?tis?tra commentary (BL 15) has punctuation marks added above the line in a way that suggests the text was at first written without and then somebody (maybe the original scribe, maybe his supervisor or such) added them in this way. In the latter part of the manuscript, they are in line and clearly made with the same pen as the main text while writing that. (2) In my verse commentary (BL 7, 9, 13, 18) marks are added in the right margin wherever a new section begins in the text. These section endings were already marked within the text, and from small glitches it seems that the margin marks were added as a bit of customization by a later user to make navigating the text easier. In general, we believe that some G?ndh?r? manuscript finds were deposits of worn?out manuscripts (the BL collection and maybe the Bajaur collection) while others (especially the Senior collection) have a fresh and almost unused appearance that might(!) indicate they were specifically made for some unknown ritual activity and deposited as part of it. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Wed Jun 3 00:06:15 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 09 01:06:15 +0100 Subject: Manuscript glosses Message-ID: <161227086645.23782.2062969546645378803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Michael, Of cours, I am aware of the virtually universal custon of writing corrections in the margins ~ indeed, I have worked with mss myself which have these. However, what I am translated versions of a text, I can isolate short phrases or single words that have been accidently incorporated int the body text at a later date by scribes who did not understand the significance of what they saw. To recap, some of the incorporated words were presumably rubics for sub-headings or topics of interest in the midst of otherwise unbroken swathes of text. These I assume from their current positioning to have been written supra-linearly as one would expect, at the beginning of the section of interest. Then there are glosses, usually for disambiguation, which may have been variously supra- or sub-linear. Finally, there are glosses/ short comments which judging from their current positions could only have been sub-linear as they are, as I mentioned, at some remove from their related textual material. Any corrections that were marked marginally (lef / right / top / bottom) have presumably been correctly utilized and so are undetectable. What I think one can see here are manuscripts that were used intensively by their owners and marked-up for their convenience in various ways at different stages of development. This in itself has some relevence to ideas about the manner in which Mahayana texts (my area) especially were circulated and used, as aspects of this is crucial to an understanding of the development of Mahayana in its early days. Generally, the thinking seems to be that mss fragments found in Central Asia (and perhaps the Gandhari items) were worn-out or otherwise discarded library copies no longer needed that were respectfully deposited out of harm's way. These all seem to be overall free of annotations, interlinear or otherwise, though one does encounter some marginal corrections ~ though I am aware of what is found in the published Gandhari mss. I imagine that ancient librarians may not have changed much in some of their attitudes over the centuries, and one thing that no librarian likes is people writing their own comments in books. So the mss ancestors of the translated texts I am looking at are more likely to have been privately owned copies, for at least some of their transmissional history. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Wed Jun 3 00:13:51 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 09 01:13:51 +0100 Subject: Manuscript glosses Message-ID: <161227086648.23782.10925131868644528391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ashok, > The avacuur.ni/.nii type seems to have been more common among the Jains > and > in the central-western part of India (Gujarat-Rajasthan area). Thanks for your helpful comments. The areas you mention are possibly significant for me, as is your mention of the Jains. I wonder how conservative the Jain scribal traditions would have been. Since there were several areas, such as Gujarat, in early medieval India where the Buddhists and the Jains rubbed shoulders, I wonder if they also shared similar mss scribal mannerisms at one time. The problem for me, of course, is that almost all mss remains available are far too late for the period I am concerned with ~ roughly 200-350 CE or are neat monastic library exemplars, as I mention in my reply to Michael. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Jun 3 00:45:40 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 09 06:15:40 +0530 Subject: Manuscript glosses Message-ID: <161227086654.23782.2947541087451918969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings! As for the Paippal?da-Samhit?,?corrections may indeed be found at any place near the original reading, but I do not remember having found small?comments eg. the commomly found rak.s?mntr?.h above or below the line. They occur either in the left margin or in the right. When it is not a running commentary but only occasional gloss?of?the vrtti type?small lines may occur above the object line with some distinguishing features in late medieval Navya-Ny?ya manuscripts of Bengal. Best wishes for all DB? --- On Wed, 3/6/09, Michael Witzel wrote: From: Michael Witzel Subject: Re: Manuscript glosses To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 3 June, 2009, 3:07 AM Corrections are written on any margin: left, right, top or bottom and usually marked by a small cross (looks like this +), kakapada, or also some other sign(s). This can be found from Kashmir to Comorin, whatever the script.? (Not to be confused with secondary word dividers or Vedic accents). Sometimes also found above the word, especially as small glosses, tippani. In old MSS and in more recent ones. (I have seen it in those from c. 1150-1800, don't remember it for older ones such as the Skandapurana from Nepal, early 9th c., or Gandhara and Xinjiang MSS). Paleontologists have discussed this before, since Buehler. A nice list is found in a local Nepalese paleography which I do not have at hand now. Cheers, Michael On Jun 2, 2009, at 1:27 PM, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > In the name avacuur.ni/nii used for a commentary or subcommentary type, the > intention behind using the prefix ava could originally have been to suggest > that the glosses are written below -- below the lines or in the lower parts > of pages. I recall seeing mss where the avacuur.ni was written in the lower > parts of pages, but I do not recall if the mss concerned were old or recent. > > The avacuur.ni/.nii type seems to have been more common among the Jains and > in the central-western part of India (Gujarat-Rajasthan area). > > My impression, however, is that corrections, additions and glosses are more > commonly written in the left and right margins. > > ashok aklujkar ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line:? 617- 496 2990 Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Jun 3 10:43:43 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 09 12:43:43 +0200 Subject: GRETIL update #345 Message-ID: <161227086660.23782.13733745984054096864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Madhva (Anandatirtha): Anuvyakhyana, a verse commentary on Badarayana's Brahmasutra (revised; missing verses added): http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#MadhAnuvy _____________________________________________________________________________ ______________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From xadxura at GMAIL.COM Thu Jun 4 00:49:06 2009 From: xadxura at GMAIL.COM (Andrew Glass) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 09 17:49:06 -0700 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: <20090603T181412Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227086665.23782.1387890219986625971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you Ronald and Allen. It is interesting to hear more about the copyright status of the dictionary. I made my assumptions based on general principles. Allen, if you could check the paper copyright files files, that would be a great help. If it is possible, either already, or by getting permission from Edgerton's estate, the EBMP would be interested in putting a digital version of the entire work online. I didn't manage to make the index public yet, but hope to do that very soon. Andrew From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Jun 4 01:11:17 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 09 18:11:17 -0700 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086668.23782.11075720783135631233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Allen and Andrew, yes, please do check the paper copyright files if it is not too much trouble. After verifying the copyright situation as best we can, and if no copyright appears to be assigned, we shall of course still contact Yale University Press one more time as well as Edgerton?s estate. It is very exciting that we may yet be able to go ahead with the digitization and share our results! Many thanks to all, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Jun 3 22:14:12 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 09 18:14:12 -0400 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086663.23782.8568896630110629577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If anyone needs me to check the paper Copyright files here, I will do so. The LCCN is actually 52-12072 (or in the modernized form where there are always 6 digits after the year number, 52012069). There is no online record of a copyright registration or renewal for this work, nor for Edgerton's other works, with the exception of the Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Reader, copyright in 1953 by Edgerton and renewed in 1981 by Mrs. Edgerton. Since the reader was published simultaneously with the Grammar and Dictionary by Yale, this may imply that Edgerton had the copyright on the Grammar and Dictionary, but that the records for that have not been digitized yet. Allen >>> Ronald Davidson 6/1/2009 8:55:38 PM >>> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Furthermore, even if Yale printed in the book "(C) Yale Univ." etc., it > doesn't go without saying that they actually own the copyright, unless > they can produce documentary proof that Edgerton actually transferred his > automatically-assigned authorial copyright to them. Being a big > professional outfit (?), YUO probably does have documentation. Still, > it's worth asking, if you're getting in touch. For some reason I ended up with an original copy of Edgerton. Curious with all the discussion, I checked in my copy. Suffice it to say there is no copyright notice in my copies of either the grammar or dictionary. It merely gives the editorial board at Yale, the title page of the grammar and dictionary, the publisher of New Haven: Yale U. Pr, 1953 and a sub-publisher of London: Geoffrey Cumberlege, Oxford University Press. On the reverse of the title page, where the copyright notice is usually found, it simply provides the Library of Congress cat. card no. (2-12072), Printed in Denmark, Bianco Lunos Bogtrykkeri. Not being an attorney, I really have no idea what all this means. But if a copyright notice is required in the book somewhere, it is simply not there. Best wishes, Ron Davidson From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Jun 4 19:52:16 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 09 15:52:16 -0400 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086670.23782.4351071742002838822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Andrew and Stephan, I will try to do so, though very busy trying to spend our acquisitions budget before someone else tries to take some of it. If you don't hear from me in a week or two remind me privately. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Jun 4 23:56:51 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 09 16:56:51 -0700 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: <3F5D1E29786941EE8073E5E238A021CA@zen> Message-ID: <161227086677.23782.5095744931165475815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stephen, copyright allowing, the one certainly doesn?t rule out the other. While we would like to have BHSD available in the same search interface as our other dictionaries (and our own): http://ebmp.org/a_gdp.php a flat digital text file can easily be extracted from that. Cheers, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jun 5 03:13:26 2009 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 09 20:13:26 -0700 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: <988977.96175.qm@web8601.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227086683.23782.1495065280490272353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What about the Deccan College Dictionary? Imagine having all the slips online, transcribed and digitized in searchable form with all the pandits' annotations included. Last time I was in Pune the slips were still rotting in the scriptorium. The publication is taking for ever, and the printed volumes don't include everything. It would be a fantastic resource, and it would rescue the work of some brilliant scholars over many decades. I heard there was some plan to scan the slips, not nearly as useful, but I suppose more realistic. Does anyone know what the current state of the project is? Paul On Jun 4, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > Most probably it is naivety, but I am somewhat intrigued at the > rush of mails urging the immediate online publication of Edgerton's > BHSD. The BHSD was reprinted in 1970, 72, 77, 85, 93 98. I do not > know if it has been reprinted again. But I was informed of its > availability till a few months ago. In view of the utility of the > work, like MMW and Apte it is likely to be reprinted again and > again. Its price in India is equivalent to $ 50/- . > Does the online publication of a three volume work, two are mostly > in demand, make it easier to handle? Online publications are more > convenient than hard copies for huge multi-volume publications like > the Tipitaka, its Tibetan versions, the St.Petersburg Dictionary etc. > Why this rush for an easily available three volume work? > There must be some reason. Only that is not clear to me. > Best wishes > DB > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Stefan Baums wrote: > > > From: Stefan Baums > Subject: Re: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you > most like as an e-text_ > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 5:26 AM > > > Dear Stephen, > > copyright allowing, the one certainly doesn?t rule out the > other. While we would like to have BHSD available in the same > search interface as our other dictionaries (and our own): > > http://ebmp.org/a_gdp.php > > a flat digital text file can easily be extracted from that. > > Cheers, > Stefan > > -- > Stefan Baums > Asian Languages and Literature > University of Washington > > > > Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to > http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From xadxura at GMAIL.COM Fri Jun 5 03:37:38 2009 From: xadxura at GMAIL.COM (Andrew Glass) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 09 20:37:38 -0700 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: <988977.96175.qm@web8601.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227086686.23782.18000342001765280978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dipak, Electronic dictionaries provide far more options in terms of search capability than do printed volumes. A couple of examples: It is possible to search an electronic version of MW or BHSD for entries ending in either uttara or ottara with a single search, "*(u|o)ttara". Such a search of the printed work would require leafing through the whole volume. For those of us working on damaged manuscripts such a facility is extremely helpful. When working with Gandhari it is helpful to be able to search for OIA equivalents of particular clusters to see what the reflexes are in known Gandhari cognates. Searching for *(a|?|i|?|u|?|r?|e|o)hy* gives the results of the cluster hy after a vowel. Turner's CDIAL required a separate volume of Phonetic correspondences to provide this kind of inquiry. Then there is the matter of saving time. If the electronic dictionaries are coordinated, one could search MW and BHSD at the same time. Since Edgerton's dictionary was intended to be complement to MW words may be found in one place or the other or both (or neither). Instant access may not appeal to everyone but there are times when it is very convenient. To be sure, it is not about the price of the dictionaries, Edgerton's work has long been affordable, it is all about accessing this and other works in new ways. Best wishes, Andrew From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Thu Jun 4 23:53:20 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 00:53:20 +0100 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086672.23782.2778400209158316975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stefan Baums wrote: > It is very exciting that we may yet be able > to go ahead with the digitization and share our results! Yes, it would be a great boon to all interested parties if a viable e-text were available. But, please not an on-line look-up dictionary. This is the least satisfactory way of making a dictionary available, although I understand the reasons why some providers may opt for that approach. But imagine what it would be like if you went to a book-shop or a library and you were met with a blank wall with a little service window in it where you can only get shown a book if you know its title or author. Tough luck if you want to browse or only have a general idea of what you want. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Thu Jun 4 23:55:52 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 00:55:52 +0100 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086675.23782.13597453382158869492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Addendum to my last: Of course, to be fair, I do have a very well-worn hard copy of BHSD I can browse. But I am one of those people who likes reading dictionaries ~ whatever the format. Stephen Hodge From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri Jun 5 02:18:01 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 07:48:01 +0530 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086680.23782.4336969855312576864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Most probably it is naivety, but I am somewhat intrigued at the rush of mails urging the immediate online publication of Edgerton's BHSD. The BHSD was reprinted in 1970, 72, 77, 85, 93 98. I?do not know if it has been reprinted again. But I was informed of its availability till a few months ago. In view of the utility of the work, like MMW and Apte it is likely to be reprinted again and again. Its price in India is equivalent to $ 50/-?. Does?the online publication of a three volume work, two are mostly in demand, make it easier to handle? Online publications are more convenient than hard copies for huge multi-volume publications?like the Tipitaka, ?its Tibetan versions, the St.Petersburg Dictionary etc.? Why this rush for an easily available three volume work? There must be some reason. Only that is not clear to me. Best wishes DB ? ? --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Stefan Baums wrote: From: Stefan Baums Subject: Re: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 5:26 AM Dear Stephen, copyright allowing, the one certainly doesn?t rule out the other. While we would like to have BHSD available in the same search interface as our other dictionaries (and our own): ???http://ebmp.org/a_gdp.php a flat digital text file can easily be extracted from that. Cheers, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Fri Jun 5 05:56:35 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 07:56:35 +0200 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086688.23782.9956871243962502407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Only one small suggestion regarding Andrew's comment below: On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 5:37 AM, Andrew Glass wrote: > Dear Dipak, > > ... > Since Edgerton's > dictionary was intended to be complement to MW ... If I remember well, this is not quite true. Like most careful philologists, FE referred directly to PW and pw, not to MW. Or do I remember wrongly? Jonathan -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Jun 5 07:15:15 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 09:15:15 +0200 Subject: AW: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086691.23782.1612462202057188038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von Jonathan Silk Gesendet: Fr 05.06.2009 07:56 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Re: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ If I remember well, this is not quite true. Like most careful philologists, FE referred directly to PW and pw, not to MW. Or do I remember wrongly? Jonathan ______________ Correct! No more than 5 references to Monier Williams in the entire dictionary (see pp. 182, 218, 249, 420, 508), against roughly 400 to "pw" (none to "PW"). RG From asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI Fri Jun 5 06:41:47 2009 From: asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 09:41:47 +0300 Subject: Deccan College Sanskrit dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086694.23782.3132843041683638042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Last weekend in Kyoto, I heard from Vasant Shinde, Professor of Archaeology at the Deccan College, that the Sanskrit Dictionary has been granted substantial funds for digitization and that the work has already been started. Best regards, Asko Quoting "Paul Kiparsky" : > What about the Deccan College Dictionary? Imagine having all the > slips online, transcribed and digitized in searchable form with all > the pandits' annotations included. Last time I was in Pune the > slips were still rotting in the scriptorium. The publication is > taking for ever, and the printed volumes don't include everything. > It would be a fantastic resource, and it would rescue the work of > some brilliant scholars over many decades. I heard there was some > plan to scan the slips, not nearly as useful, but I suppose more > realistic. Does anyone know what the current state of the project is? > > Paul From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Jun 5 17:09:34 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 10:09:34 -0700 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: <421926.97070.qm@web8603.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227086711.23782.18434028140817465784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dipak Bhattacharya, > Coordinating printed Dictionaries reasonably saves time. But the > Gandhari mss have not themselves been coordinated, an absurd > prosposition till a critical index is prepared, a work that > requires hard manual labour, a case by case inductive procedure. just briefly. With the G?ndh?r? material we were facing a special chicken?and?egg situation in that the ambiguities of the writing system, the fragmentation of the manuscripts etc. made it arguably more important than for better?preserved Sanskrit texts to have a grammar and dictionary to help in their decipherment, but then of course a grammar and dictionary would have to be based on a decipherment of the material in the first place, as you mention. Our solution to this problem was preparing transliterations of the complete corpus of G?ndh?r? texts (both published and not) to the best of our abilities here and now. This goal has been mostly accomplished. Digital versions of all transliterations reside in a database from which a word?index is automatically generated and kept up?to?date at all times. If we change a reading in the process of decipherment (i.e., pre?publication), this is instantly reflected in the word index. As a next step, we have now begun to enrich the word database with Sanskrit and Pali equivalents, grammatical tagging and English translations, thus bringing it gradually into true dictionary format (and a print edition will be produced in due course). Out of all this material, those texts that have been published are already accessible to everybody (both as full texts and through the dictionary interface) and internally we can draw on the full range of preliminary transliterations (warts and all), bringing the benefits of the digital approach to everybody concerned. Another aspect of the whole system are grammatical analysis tools that we are now developing (queries of the sort ?what happens to OIA i in closed syllable when preceded by a palatal,? with full statistics), and then there is the complete catalog of texts and the bibliography, so it is not only still less but also quite a bit more than a dictionary already. In addition to the benefits given by Andrew and Stephen, digitizing BHSD would then allow us to integrate it into our overall system so one can seamlessly navigate back and forth between G?ndh?r? and BHS entries. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jun 5 11:09:04 2009 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 11:09:04 +0000 Subject: paada-index of Paippalaadasa.mhitaa In-Reply-To: <421926.97070.qm@web8603.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227086702.23782.176820354049557651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Bhattacharya, A complete paada-by-paada electronic version of the text of the Paippalaadasa.mhitaa, largely based on your edition, is already available in my computer and can be made public as soon as all parts of the text have been published; alternatively, it could be made public already now containing for the time being only the published kaa.n.das 1-16. This electronic text of the Paippalaadasa.mhitaa can be used directly for all purposes served by a traditional paada-index, and many more. Moreover, the paadas of kaa.n.das 1-15 have already been included in Marco Franceschini's 2005 electronic re-edition of Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance (see www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/VedicConcordance/ReadmeEng.html). If I may be so bold, I would strongly urge you to focus your energy on completing the publication of the edition proper. A printed paada index is not a high priority in this digital age, but if it is really felt to be required, it can easily be generated automatically on the basis of the electronic text, i.e. without risk of incoherence between edited text and paada-index. Best greetings from Jakarta, Arlo Griffiths ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:06:29 +0530 > From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN > Subject: Re: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Coordinating printed Dictionaries reasonably saves time. But the Gandhari mss have not themselves been coordinated, an absurd prosposition till a critical index is prepared, a work that requires hard manual labour, a case by case inductive procedure. > You must have something in your mind that is not clear to me. The reason is as follows. The draft of a p?da-index of the new material in the Paippal?da-Samhit? is in my hand. So also is Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance. The p?da-index had to be manually prepared, the current checking too is to be manually done. After this one can think of putting the thing on a computer. > No? > DB > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Andrew Glass wrote: > > > From: Andrew Glass > Subject: Re: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 9:07 AM > > > Dear Dipak, > > Electronic dictionaries provide far more options in terms of search > capability than do printed volumes. A couple of examples: > > It is possible to search an electronic version of MW or BHSD for entries > ending in either uttara or ottara with a single search, "*(u|o)ttara". Such > a search of the printed work would require leafing through the whole volume. > For those of us working on damaged manuscripts such a facility is extremely > helpful. > > When working with Gandhari it is helpful to be able to search for OIA > equivalents of particular clusters to see what the reflexes are in known > Gandhari cognates. Searching for *(a|?|i|?|u|?|r?|e|o)hy* gives the results > of the cluster hy after a vowel. Turner's CDIAL required a separate volume > of Phonetic correspondences to provide this kind of inquiry. > > Then there is the matter of saving time. If the electronic dictionaries are > coordinated, one could search MW and BHSD at the same time. Since Edgerton's > dictionary was intended to be complement to MW words may be found in one > place or the other or both (or neither). Instant access may not appeal to > everyone but there are times when it is very convenient. > > To be sure, it is not about the price of the dictionaries, Edgerton's work > has long been affordable, it is all about accessing this and other works in > new ways. > > Best wishes, > > Andrew > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From jwn3y at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Fri Jun 5 15:32:33 2009 From: jwn3y at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (John William Nemec) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 11:32:33 -0400 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086709.23782.9740976415831842595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding E-texts: Does anyone know of the existence of an e-text of the Niilamatapuraa.na? I have begun transcribing the two-volume publication of the text (Motilal Banarsidass, 1973) of Dr. Ved Kumari while reading through it, but have temporarily set this work aside in order to complete another project. I will return to this if, indeed, no e-text of the work yet exists and no one else is doing the same work. John Nemec Sat, 30 May 2009 20:15:50 -0500 "Smith, Frederick M" wrote: > Tantravarttika by Kumarila Bhatta. > > All available comms, on Yogasutras. > > But, Jonathan and others are right, we do need a single list of what's out >there. > >Fred Smith > > On 5/29/09 7:47 AM, "Dominik Wujastyk" wrote: > > In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature has > become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Mahabhasya, > Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, > Buddhist literature, much else. > > What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been input > yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text? I wonder if we > can put together a prioritized list? > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk __________________________________ John Nemec, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Indian Religions and South Asian Studies Dept. of Religious Studies University of Virginia 120 Halsey Hall Charlottesville, VA 22911 (USA) nemec at virginia.edu +1-434-924-6716 From rpg at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Jun 5 19:55:38 2009 From: rpg at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert Goldman) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 12:55:38 -0700 Subject: Epic Undertakings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086720.23782.4144647083706879975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Petteri, I just received a few copies of the volume. It looks quite nice. Congratulations and thanks once more for all your long and devoted work on this project. With all best wishes. As ever, Bob Dr. R. P. Goldman Professor of Sanskrit Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 The University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 Tel: 510-642-4089 Fax: 510-642-2409 From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Jun 5 17:21:24 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 13:21:24 -0400 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086713.23782.5192859123773261875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Panditji S.D. Joshi was trying to get signatures for precisely this project at the 2001 Delhi World Sanskrit Conference. I didn't get the impression he was doing very well with the crowd there. Allen >>> Paul Kiparsky 6/4/2009 11:13:26 PM >>> What about the Deccan College Dictionary? Imagine having all the slips online, transcribed and digitized in searchable form with all the pandits' annotations included. Last time I was in Pune the slips were still rotting in the scriptorium. The publication is taking for ever, and the printed volumes don't include everything. It would be a fantastic resource, and it would rescue the work of some brilliant scholars over many decades. I heard there was some plan to scan the slips, not nearly as useful, but I suppose more realistic. Does anyone know what the current state of the project is? Paul From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Fri Jun 5 13:34:13 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 14:34:13 +0100 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086705.23782.16618783509272933874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dipak, Apart from Andrew's comments about fuzzy searches, there are other considerations that make a electronic version very useful for some people. For example, BHSD contains tens of thousands of textual citations, each of which will naturally contain other lexical items apart from the headword for which that citation is given. There is no other realistic way to access all this data apart from an electronic search to find all occurances of any particular item. There are many other things that can be done with a searchable format that cannot be done with a printed edition. Speaking from personal experience, there are other reasons concerning the physical properties of such large disctionaries which are not always obvious. Fit, healthy or young people sometimes forget that they too are going to get old and perhaps unwell one day ~ it comes as quite a surprise. So, for example, the text in my one volume edition of BHSD is fairly minute and the type is not of the highest contrast and definition. This can easily be adjusted on-screen for people with visual problems such as myself. Not so important, but still significant is the physical manipulation of the tome itself. I have a half a dozen or so large and heavy dictionaries which I cannot keep on my desk top for lack of space. Typically, I may use these works for anything up to a hundred times a day. This involves hoisting them up from their storage space to one side of my desk which causes me a degree of physical discomfort each time due to health /post-surgical problems. And rather amusingly, I actually have calluses on my lefthand knuckles from bearing the weight of these book as I support them for use. I imagine that I am not the only person with some problems of this nature who has come to greatly value the easy access of electronic versions of texts. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From rpg at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Jun 5 21:51:15 2009 From: rpg at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert Goldman) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 14:51:15 -0700 Subject: Epic Undertakings In-Reply-To: <4710C560-6E03-4752-B786-C28290D5A347@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086722.23782.16550918694209919533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for the unintentionally sent personal message. On Jun 5, 2009, at 12:55 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: > Dear Petteri, > > I just received a few copies of the volume. It looks quite nice. > Congratulations and thanks once more for all your long and devoted > work on this project. > > With all best wishes. > > As ever, > > Bob > Dr. R. P. Goldman > Professor of Sanskrit > Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies > MC # 2540 > The University of California at Berkeley > Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > Tel: 510-642-4089 > Fax: 510-642-2409 Dr. R. P. Goldman Professor of Sanskrit Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 The University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 Tel: 510-642-4089 Fax: 510-642-2409 From rpg at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Jun 5 21:56:15 2009 From: rpg at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert Goldman) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 14:56:15 -0700 Subject: Epic Undertakings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086725.23782.2982297705258497639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since several people have asked, the reference was to Epic Undertakings, the epic papers from the 12th World Sanskrit Conference edited by Muneo Tokunaga and myself. It has been published by MLBD in Delhi. On Jun 5, 2009, at 2:51 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: > Sorry for the unintentionally sent personal message. > > On Jun 5, 2009, at 12:55 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: > >> Dear Petteri, >> >> I just received a few copies of the volume. It looks quite nice. >> Congratulations and thanks once more for all your long and devoted >> work on this project. >> >> With all best wishes. >> >> As ever, >> >> Bob >> Dr. R. P. Goldman >> Professor of Sanskrit >> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies >> MC # 2540 >> The University of California at Berkeley >> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 >> Tel: 510-642-4089 >> Fax: 510-642-2409 > > Dr. R. P. Goldman > Professor of Sanskrit > Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies > MC # 2540 > The University of California at Berkeley > Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > Tel: 510-642-4089 > Fax: 510-642-2409 Dr. R. P. Goldman Professor of Sanskrit Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 The University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 Tel: 510-642-4089 Fax: 510-642-2409 From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri Jun 5 10:36:29 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 16:06:29 +0530 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086697.23782.13199017384627129372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Coordinating printed Dictionaries reasonably saves time. But the Gandhari mss?have not themselves been coordinated, an absurd prosposition till a critical?index is prepared,?a work that requires hard manual labour, a case by case inductive procedure.? You must have something in your mind that is not clear to me. The reason is as follows. The draft of?a p?da-index of the new material in the Paippal?da-Samhit? is in my hand. So also is Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance. The p?da-index had to be manually prepared, the current checking too is to be manually done. After this one can think of putting the thing on a computer. No? DB ? --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Andrew Glass wrote: From: Andrew Glass Subject: Re: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 9:07 AM Dear Dipak, Electronic dictionaries provide far more options in terms of search capability than do printed volumes. A couple of examples: It is possible to search an electronic version of MW or BHSD for entries ending in either uttara or ottara with a single search, "*(u|o)ttara". Such a search of the printed work would require leafing through the whole volume. For those of us working on damaged manuscripts such a facility is extremely helpful. When working with Gandhari it is helpful to be able to search for OIA equivalents of particular clusters to see what the reflexes are in known Gandhari cognates. Searching for *(a|?|i|?|u|?|r?|e|o)hy* gives the results of the cluster hy after a vowel. Turner's CDIAL required a separate volume of Phonetic correspondences to provide this kind of inquiry. Then there is the matter of saving time. If the electronic dictionaries are coordinated, one could search MW and BHSD at the same time. Since Edgerton's dictionary was intended to be complement to MW words may be found in one place or the other or both (or neither). Instant access may not appeal to everyone but there are times when it is very convenient. To be sure, it is not about the price of the dictionaries, Edgerton's work has long been affordable, it is all about accessing this and other works in new ways. Best wishes, Andrew Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri Jun 5 10:53:22 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 16:23:22 +0530 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086700.23782.13486687152007000539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A correction on my part. The 2.vol.set BHSD (Gr., Dict.) was priced at the equivalent of $20/- in 1999. My conjecture of the $ 50/- as the?current price may be have elements of over-invoicing. No mischief meant. DB --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Paul Kiparsky wrote: From: Paul Kiparsky Subject: Re: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 8:43 AM What about the Deccan College Dictionary?? ? Imagine having all the slips online, transcribed and digitized in searchable form with all the pandits' annotations included.? Last time I was in Pune the slips were still rotting in the scriptorium.? The publication is taking for ever, and the printed volumes don't include everything.? It would be a fantastic resource, and it would rescue the work of some brilliant scholars over many decades.? I heard there was some plan to scan the slips, not nearly as useful, but I suppose more realistic.? Does anyone know what the current state of the project is? Paul On Jun 4, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > Most probably it is naivety, but I am somewhat intrigued at the rush of mails urging the immediate online publication of Edgerton's BHSD. The BHSD was reprinted in 1970, 72, 77, 85, 93 98. I do not know if it has been reprinted again. But I was informed of its availability till a few months ago. In view of the utility of the work, like MMW and Apte it is likely to be reprinted again and again. Its price in India is equivalent to $ 50/- . > Does the online publication of a three volume work, two are mostly in demand, make it easier to handle? Online publications are more convenient than hard copies for huge multi-volume publications like the Tipitaka,? its Tibetan versions, the St.Petersburg Dictionary etc. > Why this rush for an easily available three volume work? > There must be some reason. Only that is not clear to me. > Best wishes > DB > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Stefan Baums wrote: > > > From: Stefan Baums > Subject: Re: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 5:26 AM > > > Dear Stephen, > > copyright allowing, the one certainly doesn?t rule out the > other. While we would like to have BHSD available in the same > search interface as our other dictionaries (and our own): > >? ? http://ebmp.org/a_gdp.php > > a flat digital text file can easily be extracted from that. > > Cheers, > Stefan > > --Stefan Baums > Asian Languages and Literature > University of Washington > > > >? ? ???Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From h.arganisjuarez at YAHOO.COM.MX Sat Jun 6 01:51:30 2009 From: h.arganisjuarez at YAHOO.COM.MX (Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 18:51:30 -0700 Subject: looking for Message-ID: <161227086727.23782.8235712237719776555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues: I am looking for ?is there references in all the body of Literature : Sruti and Smriti, like granthas and tikas, etc, too. What it indicates, if the old eunuchs mentioned in hitihasas and puranas, were homosexual like the present eunuchs of India? Being thankful by your attention to ?my search. With my best wishes Horacio Francisco Arganis-Juarez Lic. M.A Researcher from Philosophy and Religion Department of Universidad Internacional Euroamericana. Instituto de Estudios Filos?ficos, Instituto de Ciencias y Humanidades Bhaktivedanta. Saltillo, Coah. Northeast of M?xico. ? ? ? ?Obt?n la mejor experiencia en la web! Descarga gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/ieak8/?l=mx From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Fri Jun 5 17:52:48 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 18:52:48 +0100 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086715.23782.4806434253312544062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think that the need for digital / searchable editions has different priorities for different people. Not wishing to labour the point, but further to what Stefan has just written, one must bear in mind that the main professional users of BHSD are going to be people like Stefan and Andrew in their field and people like myself who work with Buddhist texts which usually do not have any surviving Skt material touse but try to read through Tibetan and Chinese translations to find the possible or probable underlying Sanskrit -- or as is now increasingly recognized, Prakrit -- by identifying likely candidates through parallel passages which have been cited, through the Pali equivalents which BHSD invariably notes. Again, the sheer convenience of an electronic version of such works is immense. As you yourself may do, I do like the touch and feel of proper books, but there are many occasions when a digital version makes life so much easier. I imagine that many of the contributors here take their laptops with them if they need to travel afar to conferences etc, but even more mundanely, I for one do quite a lot of productive textual work in bed at night . . . Having worked with Buddhist texts for more than forty years, I can assure you that the present availability of huge amounts of digital material has improved the quality of my research work beyond recognition. I'll say no more on this. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri Jun 5 14:10:49 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 19:40:49 +0530 Subject: paada-index of Paippalaadasa.mhitaa Message-ID: <161227086707.23782.18075746518344929712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The paadas had been culled out by Durgamohan Bhattacharyya(1899-1965), alphabetically arranged by me in 1983. Without a complete critical edition it is bound to be defective. The index must be critical. That is why its publication has been withheld by me. I have been?aware of the priorities long before you appeared in the field. That must be clear to you. Best for all DB --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Arlo Griffiths wrote: From: Arlo Griffiths Subject: paada-index of Paippalaadasa.mhitaa To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 4:39 PM Dear Professor Bhattacharya, A complete paada-by-paada electronic version of the text of the Paippalaadasa.mhitaa, largely based on your edition, is already available in my computer and can be made public as soon as all parts of the text have been published; alternatively, it could be made public already now containing for the time being only the published kaa.n.das 1-16. This electronic text of the Paippalaadasa.mhitaa can be used directly for all purposes served by a traditional paada-index, and many more. Moreover, the paadas of kaa.n.das 1-15 have already been included in Marco Franceschini's 2005 electronic re-edition of Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance (see www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/VedicConcordance/ReadmeEng.html). If I may be so bold, I would strongly urge you to focus your energy on completing the publication of the edition proper. A printed paada index is not a high priority in this digital age, but if it is really felt to be required, it can easily be generated automatically on the basis of the electronic text, i.e. without risk of incoherence between edited text and paada-index. Best greetings from Jakarta, Arlo Griffiths ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:06:29 +0530 > From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN > Subject: Re: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Coordinating printed Dictionaries reasonably saves time. But the Gandhari mss have not themselves been coordinated, an absurd prosposition till a critical index is prepared, a work that requires hard manual labour, a case by case inductive procedure. > You must have something in your mind that is not clear to me. The reason is as follows. The draft of a p?da-index of the new material in the Paippal?da-Samhit? is in my hand. So also is Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance. The p?da-index had to be manually prepared, the current checking too is to be manually done. After this one can think of putting the thing on a computer. > No? > DB > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Andrew Glass? wrote: > > > From: Andrew Glass > Subject: Re: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 9:07 AM > > > Dear Dipak, > > Electronic dictionaries provide far more options in terms of search > capability than do printed volumes. A couple of examples: > > It is possible to search an electronic version of MW or BHSD for entries > ending in either uttara or ottara with a single search, "*(u|o)ttara". Such > a search of the printed work would require leafing through the whole volume. > For those of us working on damaged manuscripts such a facility is extremely > helpful. > > When working with Gandhari it is helpful to be able to search for OIA > equivalents of particular clusters to see what the reflexes are in known > Gandhari cognates. Searching for *(a|?|i|?|u|?|r?|e|o)hy* gives the results > of the cluster hy after a vowel. Turner's CDIAL required a separate volume > of Phonetic correspondences to provide this kind of inquiry. > > Then there is the matter of saving time. If the electronic dictionaries are > coordinated, one could search MW and BHSD at the same time. Since Edgerton's > dictionary was intended to be complement to MW words may be found in one > place or the other or both (or neither). Instant access may not appeal to > everyone but there are times when it is very convenient. > > To be sure, it is not about the price of the dictionaries, Edgerton's work > has long been affordable, it is all about accessing this and other works in > new ways. > > Best wishes, > > Andrew > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri Jun 5 17:56:21 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 09 23:26:21 +0530 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086717.23782.1417883721583995023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The necessity was never denied by me. All said, on the supposition that producing?the online version of texts, on which I am no expert, is an expensive and laborious job,?the claim for not-easily-available multi-volume works is greater than that of easily available and cheap-by-Western-standard works whatever acuteness of its necessity for particular projects. Again, there is absolutely no message of underestimating of the work with G?ndh?r? manuscripts. Every sane Indologist wishes them the best. DB ? ? ? ? ? --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Stefan Baums wrote: From: Stefan Baums Subject: Re: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 10:39 PM Dear Dipak Bhattacharya, > Coordinating printed Dictionaries reasonably saves time. But the > Gandhari mss have not themselves been coordinated, an absurd > prosposition till a critical index is prepared, a work that > requires hard manual labour, a case by case inductive procedure. just briefly. With the G?ndh?r? material we were facing a special chicken?and?egg situation in that the ambiguities of the writing system, the fragmentation of the manuscripts etc. made it arguably more important than for better?preserved Sanskrit texts to have a grammar and dictionary to help in their decipherment, but then of course a grammar and dictionary would have to be based on a decipherment of the material in the first place, as you mention. Our solution to this problem was preparing transliterations of the complete corpus of G?ndh?r? texts (both published and not) to the best of our abilities here and now. This goal has been mostly accomplished. Digital versions of all transliterations reside in a database from which a word?index is automatically generated and kept up?to?date at all times. If we change a reading in the process of decipherment (i.e., pre?publication), this is instantly reflected in the word index. As a next step, we have now begun to enrich the word database with Sanskrit and Pali equivalents, grammatical tagging and English translations, thus bringing it gradually into true dictionary format (and a print edition will be produced in due course). Out of all this material, those texts that have been published are already accessible to everybody (both as full texts and through the dictionary interface) and internally we can draw on the full range of preliminary transliterations (warts and all), bringing the benefits of the digital approach to everybody concerned. Another aspect of the whole system are grammatical analysis tools that we are now developing (queries of the sort ?what happens to OIA i in closed syllable when preceded by a palatal,? with full statistics), and then there is the complete catalog of texts and the bibliography, so it is not only still less but also quite a bit more than a dictionary already. In addition to the benefits given by Andrew and Stephen, digitizing BHSD would then allow us to integrate it into our overall system so one can seamlessly navigate back and forth between G?ndh?r? and BHS entries. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ From xadxura at GMAIL.COM Sun Jun 7 06:06:29 2009 From: xadxura at GMAIL.COM (Andrew Glass) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 09 23:06:29 -0700 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086730.23782.18323478167829623850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indeed, I should have said BR rather than MW, careless. I've just finished the updates to the website. The index to the BHSD is now publicly available. http://www.ebmp.org/a_bhsd.php I've also added, with permission, a combined electronic text of two articles by Boris Oguib?nine which serve as supplements to the BHSD. Oguib?nine, Boris. 2002. ?Materials for the Lexicography of Buddhist Sanskrit of the Mah?s??ghika?Lokottarav?dins (I).? *Ch?? Gakujutsu Kenkyujo Kiy?* ????????? *(Bulletin of the Ch?? Academic Research Institute)* 31: 44?92. Oguib?nine, Boris. 2005. ?Materials for the Lexicography of Buddhist Sanskrit of the Mah?s??ghika?Lokottarav?dins (II).? *Ch?? Gakujutsu Kenkyujo Kiy?* ????????? *(Bulletin of the Ch?? Academic Research Institute)* 34: 45?70. Please contact me with reports of bugs or errors. Andrew From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Sun Jun 7 09:11:28 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 09 04:11:28 -0500 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: <5163B80CDC804E9994B06945C78FEAE7@zen> Message-ID: <161227086732.23782.7474369226608467642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > the >physical properties of such large disctionaries which are not always >obvious. Fit, healthy or young people sometimes forget that they too are >going to get old and perhaps unwell one day ~ it comes as quite a surprise. To inject a bit of levity into the conversation, some may find it amusing to read Lee Siegel's novel Love in a Dead Language, in which a professor of Sanskrit meets his end when his MW falls on him from a high shelf. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Sun Jun 7 19:35:37 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 09 12:35:37 -0700 Subject: Help with a verse In-Reply-To: <26427_1244385394_1244385394_857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB09AB04AC@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227086739.23782.11497589427344453477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ken, Purely on the basis of instinct, I am tempted to reconstruct the first line of the verse as follows: dr?dha-m?rkhas sravat-ku?bhas sakr?t-karm?bhic?raka?/ An incorrigible/steadfast fool, one who is like a dripping pitcher (who retains nothing), one who acts at once (who acts rashly), one who engages in black magic In the second line, 'one who rejects (tradition or good advice/views)' should probably suffice, unless the context justifies 'despiser.' Should ete not be etaa? Best. ashok aklujkar On 6/7/09 7:35 AM, "Kenneth Zysk" wrote: > This verse comes from the Gargasa?hit?, Puru?alak?a?a-chapter, which > unfortunately only occurs in mss., with occasional verses found in Utpala?s > commentary to the Br?hatsa?hit? (U) and in the Viramitrodaya (Vm). The verse > lists the six kinds of fools. Perhaps they are found elsewhere in Sanskrit > literature. If so, please let me know where. > > Here is what I have from 5 mss. > > dr?dham?rkha? ?ruta? ku?bhasakr?tomabhic?ra?/ > > ekavidyo nir?kartt? ?a? ete m?rkhaj?taya?// > > dr?dha-] P dr?dha?. -sakr?tomabhic?ra?] B,V1 -sakr?tobhabhic?ra?. > > These six [men] are fools by birth: he who is wholly stupid, ?, the magician, > he who knows only one thing, and the despiser (of tradition). > > Comment: The verse is wanting in U and Vm. Mss. are corrupt in a and b, where > a syllable is missing. > > Thank for any help. > Ken From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Sun Jun 7 14:35:42 2009 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 09 16:35:42 +0200 Subject: Help with a verse In-Reply-To: <20090607041128.BYV07315@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227086734.23782.5971302546712718359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, This verse comes from the Gargasa?hit?, Puru?alak?a?a-chapter, which unfortunately only occurs in mss., with occasional verses found in Utpala?s commentary to the Br?hatsa?hit? (U) and in the Viramitrodaya (Vm). The verse lists the six kinds of fools. Perhaps they are found elsewhere in Sanskrit literature. If so, please let me know where. Here is what I have from 5 mss. dr?dham?rkha? ?ruta? ku?bhasakr?tomabhic?ra?/ ekavidyo nir?kartt? ?a? ete m?rkhaj?taya?// dr?dha-] P dr?dha?. -sakr?tomabhic?ra?] B,V1 -sakr?tobhabhic?ra?. These six [men] are fools by birth: he who is wholly stupid, ?, the magician, he who knows only one thing, and the despiser (of tradition). Comment: The verse is wanting in U and Vm. Mss. are corrupt in a and b, where a syllable is missing. Thank for any help. Ken From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Sun Jun 7 19:17:31 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 09 21:17:31 +0200 Subject: AW: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086737.23782.12955250724181126962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von Andrew Glass Gesendet: So 07.06.2009 08:06 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Re: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Indeed, I should have said BR rather than MW, careless. _______ Why not say "pw"? After all, that's what Edgerton is about, isn't it. And, talking about "pw", "BR" is hardly a fitting replacement because "R" wasn't involved in that one (cf. Edgerton's list, Vol. 1, p. XXIX). Cheers R.G. From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Mon Jun 8 09:03:45 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 09 11:03:45 +0200 Subject: AW: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086741.23782.7392317740736198485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apologies for creating the impression that Edgerton referred exclusively to pw, and not to PW. His abbreviation for the former ("pw") is simply more obvious than "BR". His references to "pw" may outweigh those to "BR", but that's beside the point. Regards Reinhold Gr?nendahl ______ Von: Indology im Auftrag von Andrew Glass Gesendet: So 07.06.2009 08:06 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Re: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Indeed, I should have said BR rather than MW, careless. _______ Why not say "pw"? After all, that's what Edgerton is about, isn't it. And, talking about "pw", "BR" is hardly a fitting replacement because "R" wasn't involved in that one (cf. Edgerton's list, Vol. 1, p. XXIX). Cheers R.G. From indologi at GWDG.DE Mon Jun 8 10:16:58 2009 From: indologi at GWDG.DE (Indologie, Seminar fuer) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 09 12:16:58 +0200 Subject: Professor in ?Indian Religions? (W2), Goettingen (Germany) Message-ID: <161227086743.23782.7551230284163829466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, the Georg-August-University G?ttingen (Germany) is establishing the Centre for Modern Indian Studies (CeMIS) and invites applications for a position of a professor (salary scale W2) in "Indian Religions". The CeMIS is a new founded institution funded by the Land Niedersachsen to foster research and teaching on contemporary India. The Centre?s thematic focus is on economic and political development of modern India and its relation to ethnic, religious and linguistic diversity as well as to social inequalities and political conflicts. The position is available from 1st October 2009. You'll find complete information below. Kindly forward this mail to suitable candidates. Best regards, Thomas Oberlies -- Prof. Dr. Thomas Oberlies Seminar f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Waldweg 26 D-37073 G?ttingen Tel.: +49-551-39 13301 The Georg-August-University G?ttingen (Germany) is establishing the Centre for Modern Indian Studies (CeMIS) and invites applications for - 1 positions of a professor (salary scale W2) ? The CeMIS (www.uni-goettingen.de/cemis) is a new founded institution funded by the Land Niedersachsen to foster research and teaching on contemporary India. The Centre?s thematic focus is on economic and political development of modern India and its relation to ethnic, religious and linguistic diversity as well as to social inequalities and political conflicts. The three professorships are affiliated to the Faculty of Economics (W3) and to the Faculty of Philosophy (W2). They will be completed by two additional social science professorships in the near future and shall cooperate in the framework of an interdisciplinary Centre affiliated to several Faculties. The positions are available from 1st October 2009. Professor in ?Indian Religions? (W2) Applications are invited from candidates working on religions in contemporary India from a religious studies perspective. This includes particularly candidates who work on Hindu-Muslim or Hindu-Christian relations and their implications for social conflict and political integration in the modern era. Candidates should work with primary materials in an Indian language. Candidates must have an interest in interdisciplinary cooperation with other social science professors in the newly created Centre. Teaching responsibilities will particularly include contributions to, and further development of, a newly created Bachelor in Modern Indian Studies as well as a Master in Modern Indian Development Studies. Participation in other teaching in the Faculty of Philosophy to which the professorship is affiliated, is encouraged and contribution to PhD training within the G?ttingen Graduate School of Humanities is welcomed. Preconditions for appointment are laid down in ? 25 of the Higher Education Law of Lower Saxony of 26.02.2007 (Official Law Gazette of Lower Saxony, Nds. GVBl. 5/ 2007 p. 69). As a Public Law Foundation, the University of G?ttingen holds the right of appointment. Further details will be explained on inquiry. We explicitly welcome applications from abroad. Under certain circumstances part-time employment is possible. Disabled persons with corresponding aptitude for the position will be favoured. The University strives to increase its proportion of female staff and specifically encourages qualified women to apply. Applications, including pertinent documentation (CV, list of publications, teaching and research track records etc.) are requested by July 22, 2009 and should be sent to the Dekanin der Philosophischen Fakult?t der Georg-August-Universit?t G?ttingen, Humboldt-allee, D-37073 G?ttingen, Germany), email: dekanin at phil.uni-goettingen.de. For further information, please contact Vicepresident Prof. Casper-Hehne, email: (hiltraud.casper-hehne at zvw.uni-goettingen.de). From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Mon Jun 8 16:28:07 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 09 18:28:07 +0200 Subject: GRETIL update #346 Message-ID: <161227086746.23782.1524488262271951191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Gautama-Dharmasutra (revised): http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#Gautdhs __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Tue Jun 9 08:20:44 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 09 10:20:44 +0200 Subject: Post-doc and/or PhD positions in Buddhist Studies, Leiden University Message-ID: <161227086748.23782.15725297755144454791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two positions: *PhD and/or Post-Doc* (9-104) Faculty of Humanities, Institute for Area Studies The Leiden Institute for Area Studies (LIAS) is responsible for researchers who are active in the fields of relations with East, South and Central and Southeast Asia and the Middle East. The Institute is divided into a School for Asian Studies and a School for Middle Eastern Studies. A multidisciplinary approach which comprises both the modern and the traditional periods is typical for the teaching and research within this Institute, whereby the knowledge of the source language is essential. The research of the approximately 75 staff members (including 20 professors) brings together the study of such subjects as history, law, economy, literature, religion and philology of the areas mentioned, both in the present day and in ancient times. Starting September 2009 (or later if necessary) the Leiden Institute for Area Studies has two full time (38 hrs) vacancies, available as 4 year PhD positions and/or 3 year Post-Doctoral fellowships. Project description Applicants should work in the study of Buddhism. In principle any sub-field is possible, but preference will be given to those those working on pre-modern topics, and South Asia in particular. Applicants for a *PhD position* Tasks: - The writing of a PhD dissertation on a topic to be agreed with the promotor; - publishing research results in the form of (an) article(s) and/or books; - presenting papers at (international) conferences; - participation in local research meetings and PhD teaching; - organizing roundtable meetings and conferences in the framework of the research project. Requirements: - an MA, M.Phil or equivalent degree in a relevant field; - research knowledge of the language(s) necessary for the project; - fluency in English (spoken and written) and competence in other relevant modern languages; - ability to work independently. *Post-Doctoral Fellowship* applicants should have a demonstrably excellent academic track record in Buddhist Studies, and hold a PhD in Buddhist Studies, or its equivalent. They should have an excellent command of English and be prepared to present their research results in English. Finally we expect applicants to be willing and able to teach a small number of courses on topics within their area of specialization. Conditions of employment The position of the Postdoctoral fellow is temporary, max. three years with a full-time appointment (38 hours per week). The position of PhD-fellow (?promovendus?) is temporary, max. four years with a full-time appointment, and with an initial 18-month trial period. The salary is determined in accordance with the current scales as set out in the collective labor agreement for the Dutch universities (CAO): Postdoctoral fellow: min. ? 2.379, max. ? 4.374 PhD fellow: min. ? 2.042 - max. ? 2.612 More information For more information about the two positions please contact Prof. dr. J.A Silk, tel. +31-71-5272510, email j.a.silk at hum.leidenuniv.nl Application *PhD candidates* please send your application (in English), including: ? a cover letter stating your motivation for this position, ? a CV ? copies of your academic transcripts (or Dutch cijferlijst), ? a writing sample (such as your MA thesis), and ? two references. *Post-doc candidates* please send your application (in English), including: ? a cover letter stating your motivation for this position, ? a CV, ? copies of your academic transcripts, ? a printed copy of your PhD thesis and other relevant publications, and ? three references. Please send your application indicating the application number (9-104) to the address below before the deadline of 15 July 2009: Faculteit der Geesteswetenschappen afdeling Personeel en Organisatie t.a.v. mw. M. Bipat, kamer 2.41 Postbus 9515 2300 RA LEIDEN Applicants are encouraged to send an additional electronic copy of the application package to: vacature at hum.leidenuniv.nl ******************** Please make know the above to anyone who might be interested, and feel free to post it in other fora. Thank you! -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Tue Jun 9 20:15:20 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 09 13:15:20 -0700 Subject: Justinianic Plague in Tamil (or Sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227086752.23782.16909271144489919620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A researcher working on the Justinianic Plague (6th-8th century CE) is looking for references to it in Tamil -- I am wondering if anyone knows of such a source in either Tamil or Sanskrit. He says that he has read that there are references to it in Tamil but does not know what they are. I have not come across them. George Hart From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Tue Jun 9 15:55:43 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 09 17:55:43 +0200 Subject: GRETIL update #347 Message-ID: <161227086750.23782.15628474089645959482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Gautama-Dharmasutra, Adhy. 1-3, with Maskari's commentary: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#GautdhsCMas Madhva (Anandatirtha): Krsnamrtamaharnava: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#MadhvaKm __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jun 10 10:07:15 2009 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 09 10:07:15 +0000 Subject: curricula in epigraphy Message-ID: <161227086754.23782.8009137643219942654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, The department of archaeology at the Universitas Indonesia (Jakarta) is setting up a new 2 year MA program in (Indonesian) Epigraphy. (Parenthetically, the department is one of the last remaining outposts of Sanskrit study in this country.) I have been asked to try to find examples of how such curricula are set up abroad. I don't imagine there's any academic institution in the world outside of Indonesia that offers any program in Indonesian epigraphy, but elsewhere in Southeast Asia and of course in South Asia there are comparable programs in the respective national/regional epigraphies. I have seen an online description of a (BA?) curriculum in the dept. of History at the Royal University of Phnom Penh, which contains a lot of Khmer epigraphy. I have also seen a description of a 'paper' in Epigraphy & Numismatics as part of the Post-graduate diploma in Archaeology offered by the Institute of Archaeology, ASI, Delhi. I would be interested to see similar descriptions of related curricula offered elsewhere in India (and the rest of South Asia). For comparison, I have seen (post)graduate curricula in Roman/Greek epigraphy at Cambridge and London in the UK, and a related summer school in the US (Ohio). I would be grateful for other useful references. Sincere greetings, Arlo Griffiths?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (EFEO)Jalan Ampera III, no. 26Jakarta Selatan 12550Indonesia www.efeo.fr _________________________________________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Jun 10 10:42:34 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 09 12:42:34 +0200 Subject: GRETIL update #348 Message-ID: <161227086757.23782.13655894903030543529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Jayatirtha: Nyayasudha, a commentary on Madhva's Anuvyakhyana [and subcomm. on Brahmasutra], Adhyaya 1, Pada 1: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#JayNysu __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From annamisia at YAHOO.COM Thu Jun 11 08:42:15 2009 From: annamisia at YAHOO.COM (Anna A. Slaczka) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 09 01:42:15 -0700 Subject: in search for a conference paper Message-ID: <161227086759.23782.9609601340888485415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Does anybody know if the proceedings of the Second Conference on Skanda-Murukan, held in April 2001 in Mauritius have ever been published? I am looking for a paper by Kanakasabha Venkatasubbu Ravi: Murugan worship according to Kumaratantra Agama. If anybody happens to have this paper, and could send me a scan off-list, I would be extremely grateful! Best regards, Anna Slaczka, Leiden University The Netherlands. From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Jun 12 09:44:27 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 09 11:44:27 +0200 Subject: GRETIL update #349 Message-ID: <161227086761.23782.11963328173007641059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Jagannatha Panditaraja: Rasagangadhara, Anana 1: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#JagRasagang ____________________________ More e-texts will follow in July 2009. Contributions welcome! __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jun 15 12:22:42 2009 From: navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM (JAGANADH GOPINADHAN) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 09 12:22:42 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit IAST data entry tool In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086764.23782.14019660704947194274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks a lot. Greetings JAGANADH.G LINGUIST HDG-LTS C-DAC VELAYAMBALAM THIRUVANANTHAPURAM P-H+91 9895420624 E-MAIL- jaganadh at cdactvm.in,navadipanyaya at hotmail.com/jaganadhg at gmail.com http://sabdabodha.googlepages.com www.malayalammorph.blogspot.com www.malayalamresourceceter.org > Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:14:52 +0200 > From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Sanskrit IAST data entry tool > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > You may find something helpful here: > > http://www.ebmp.org/p_dwnlds.php > > On Fri, 29 May 2009, JAGANADH GOPINADHAN wrote: > > > > > Dear friends > > Which is the best tool to data entry Sanskrit text in IAST from(Unicode). > > e.g Text with diacritics. (A????gah?daya) > > Please provide the name of font and tool can be used to enter Devanagari text in the above given format. > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > JAGANADH.G > > LINGUIST > > HDG-LTS > > C-DAC > > VELAYAMBALAM > > THIRUVANANTHAPURAM > > P-H+91 9895420624 > > E-MAIL- jaganadh at cdactvm.in,navadipanyaya at hotmail.com/jaganadhg at gmail.com > > http://sabdabodha.googlepages.com > > www.malayalammorph.blogspot.com > > www.malayalamresourceceter.org > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Planning the weekend ? Here?s what is happening in your town. > > http://msn.asklaila.com/events/ _________________________________________________________________ Missed any of the IPL matches ? Catch a recap of all the action on MSN Videos http://msnvideos.in/iplt20/msnvideoplayer.aspx From frederick-smith at UIOWA.EDU Mon Jun 15 19:14:11 2009 From: frederick-smith at UIOWA.EDU (Smith, Frederick M) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 09 14:14:11 -0500 Subject: Middle Indic textbook? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086767.23782.15786880451319298257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What's the most authoritative account of the development of Middle Indic? Is it Pischel's book of more than a century ago? Or is there something more recent? Also, how has the work of S.K. Chatterji on Middle Indic and Bengali held up? Thanks Fred Smith From vbd203 at GOOGLEMAIL.COM Mon Jun 15 19:38:01 2009 From: vbd203 at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (victor davella) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 09 15:38:01 -0400 Subject: Middle Indic textbook? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086772.23782.9269327520653868006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following have information not found in Pischel: Das ?ltere Mittelindisch im ?berblick / Oskar von Hin?ber, The structure and development of Middle Indo-Aryan dialects / Vit Bubenik A historical syntax of late Middle Indo-Aryan (Apabhra??a) / Vit Buben?k Introduction to Prakrit [by] A.C. Woolner The Indo-Aryan Languages, ed. Cardona & Jain (a few articles on Middle-Indic) There are also several valuable articles on Asokan in K. R. Norman's Collected Papers. The Sanskrit-Prakrit grammars can be of interest in terms of how Sanskrit writers viewed and grouped these languages. *Nitti*-*Dolci* , *Luigia*: 1938, Les grammairiens *prakrits is a good intro with references to all the major prakrit grammars in Sanskrit. I'm sure there's much more, but those are the major works that come to mind. Hope that helps.* Victor PhD Candidate SALC, University of Chicago On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Smith, Frederick M < frederick-smith at uiowa.edu> wrote: > What's the most authoritative account of the development of Middle Indic? > Is it Pischel's book of more than a century ago? Or is there something more > recent? Also, how has the work of S.K. Chatterji on Middle Indic and Bengali > held up? > > Thanks > > Fred Smith > From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Mon Jun 15 19:45:30 2009 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 09 21:45:30 +0200 Subject: Middle Indic textbook? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086774.23782.13604071897757914828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 15.06.2009 um 21:14 schrieb Smith, Frederick M: > What's the most authoritative account of the development of Middle > Indic? Is it Pischel's book of more than a century ago? Or is there > something more recent? Also, how has the work of S.K. Chatterji on > Middle Indic and Bengali held up? Besides Oskar von Hin?ber's book, one may refer to the works of Frank van den Bossche and Thomas Oberlies, too: Frank van den Bossche: A reference manual of middle Pr?krit grammar : the Pr?krits of the dramas and the Jain texts. - Gent : Vakgroep Talen en Culturen van Zuid-en Oost-Azi?, 1999. - 146 p. - (Bijdragen / Faculteit van de Letteren en Wijsbegeerte, Universiteit Gent ; 3) Thomas Oberlies: P?li : a grammar of the language of the Therav?da Tipi?aka; with a concordance to Pischel's Grammatik der Prakrit- Sprachen. - Berlin ; New York : de Gruyter, 2001. - XVIII, 385 p. - (Indian philology and South Asian studies ; 3) ISBN 3-11-016763-8 Hope it helps, Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 53113 Bonn From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Mon Jun 15 19:25:46 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (Veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 09 00:55:46 +0530 Subject: small qerry on OOA theory and Indo-european languages Message-ID: <161227086770.23782.14994739089857192868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends. I have a small query. how Out of africa (OOA) theory handles the problem of indo-european group of languages had the european group seperated from that one bound to travel to south asia. India and Europe share a language to some extant. it will be difficult if they seperated 30000 years ago. or is there any material on the OOA theory and Aryan invasion theory? OOA is seperately dealt by DNA specialists. but has anybody from our clan tried to do something? -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Jun 16 01:48:01 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 09 07:18:01 +0530 Subject: Middle Indic textbook? Message-ID: <161227086778.23782.7080671964110865003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr.Smith, Pischel's is more a synchronic description?of liiterary Prakrit. Chatterji-Sen's MIA Reader was accompanied by a grammar. These paid attention to inscriptional Prakrit too and from a delopmental point of view. As far as I know, the idea of Apabhramsa as a short lived intermediate stage between MIA and NIA ?was Chatterji's.? But one knows more of his view from the introductory part of the ODBL. I do not think that sufficient attention has been paid to the development aspect of inscriptional Prakrit. Scholars cite Asokan parallels and the matter ends. Diachronic desriptions will be found. The BORI/Pune?works are?mostly synchronic barring one on Apabhramsa (Tagare).? I am unaware of recent developments, if any Best DB --- On Tue, 16/6/09, Smith, Frederick M wrote: From: Smith, Frederick M Subject: Middle Indic textbook? To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 16 June, 2009, 12:44 AM What's the most authoritative account of the development of Middle Indic? Is it Pischel's book of more than a century ago? Or is there something more recent? Also, how has the work of S.K. Chatterji on Middle Indic and Bengali held up? Thanks Fred Smith Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Wed Jun 17 07:02:41 2009 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 09 08:02:41 +0100 Subject: Contact requested Message-ID: <161227086780.23782.5976046389672953684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If anyone has up-to-date contact details for Peter Friedlander, could they please email me off-list? I've tried via the email address on his Bodhgaya News website, but without response. Valerie J Roebuck From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Thu Jun 18 07:28:00 2009 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 09 09:28:00 +0200 Subject: one-day symposium : www.iias.nl/ayurveda-post-classical-and-pre-colonial-india Message-ID: <161227086782.23782.3113921201802943815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> * * symposium *Ayurveda in Post-Classical and * *Pre-Colonial India* *9 July 2009* 09.00 - 18.00 hrs *Venue:* Gravensteen, Room 111, Pieterskerkhof 6, 2311SR Leiden Hosted by the International Institute for Asian Studies, co-organized and co-sponsored by the Research Unit UMR 7528 Mondes Iranien & Indien (Paris) and the Scaliger Institute (Leiden). ** *Convenors:* Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben (Paris/Leiden) and Dr. Dominik Wujastyk (Leiden) Ayurveda, the classical medical system of South Asia, was codified in the first few centuries BCE, and is even today - in modified form - formally and financially supported by the Government of India through the Ministry of Health. This symposium addresses the dynamic interactions between texts, and between texts and practices according to available sources, in the little-studied period of post-classical and pre-colonial India when Ayurveda interacted with other medical systems such as Unani. *Topics include:* Post-classical traditions of medical debate and argumentation. Relative chronologies in alchemical and medical literature. Indo-Persian sources on post-classical Indian medicine. Irrational elements in a rational system for healing. *Speakers:* G. Jan Meulenbeld (Groningen) ? Dominik Wujastyk (Leiden) ? Kenneth Zysk (Copenhagen) ? Tsutomu Yamashita (Kyoto) ? Fabrizio Speziale (Rome/Paris) ? Philipp Maas (Vienna) ? Oliver Hellwig (Berlin) ? Jan Houben (Paris/Leiden) Further information and registration (obligatory): a.e.l.van.der.horst at iias.nl | T +31-71-5272227 ; see also: http://www.iias.nl/ayurveda-post-classical-and-pre-colonial-india From avandergeer at PLANET.NL Thu Jun 18 16:00:29 2009 From: avandergeer at PLANET.NL (Alexandra van der Geer) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 09 19:00:29 +0300 Subject: small qerry on OOA theory and Indo-european languages Message-ID: <161227086785.23782.13255405768431745804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Veeranarayana, Are you referring to THE out-of-Africa theory versus the multiregional model??? In that case, your comma moved somewhat, because the first theory developed to explain the rise/evolution of Homo sapiens from Homo erectus at about 1.8 million years ago, far far far before something like an Indo-European language arose. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Veeranarayana Pandurangi" To: Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:25 PM Subject: small qerry on OOA theory and Indo-european languages > Dear friends. I have a small query. > how Out of africa (OOA) theory handles the problem of indo-european group > of languages had the european group seperated from that one bound to > travel > to south asia. India and Europe share a language to some extant. it will > be > difficult if they seperated 30000 years ago. > > or is there any material on the OOA theory and Aryan invasion theory? OOA > is > seperately dealt by DNA specialists. but has anybody from our clan tried > to > do something? > > > -- > Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi > Head, Dept of Darshanas, > Yoganandacharya Bhavan, > Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post > Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.78/2185 - Release Date: 06/18/09 05:53:00 From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jun 18 23:08:52 2009 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 09 19:08:52 -0400 Subject: small qerry on OOA theory and Indo-european languages In-Reply-To: <965fdc5f0906151225q56bd0a55jdf7c08b55a6c2c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227086787.23782.10998861603659101506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Pandurangi, I think this confuses the Out of Africa movement of anatomically modern humans, 75-65,000 (75 kya) years ago, with the spread of Indo-Europeans after c. 3000 BCE (5 kya: they have copper and the newly invented (Sumerian oxen drawn wagon with heavy wheels). There were no Indo-European speakers, nor even their hypothetical Nostratic ancestors in 30 kya. The ocean shores of India (now under water after the Ice Age) were occupied around 75-65 kya (a Tamil Nadu find), and Australia by 60-40 kya, Europe only by 40 kya, driving out the Neanderthals... No connection either with the so-called Aryan invasion (migration), c. 1500 BCE ... All distinct and clearly marked movements of people and their languages. Cheers, MW> On Jun 15, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: > Dear friends. I have a small query. > how Out of africa (OOA) theory handles the problem of indo- > european group > of languages had the european group seperated from that one bound > to travel > to south asia. India and Europe share a language to some extant. it > will be > difficult if they seperated 30000 years ago. > > or is there any material on the OOA theory and Aryan invasion > theory? OOA is > seperately dealt by DNA specialists. but has anybody from our clan > tried to > do something? > > > -- > Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi > Head, Dept of Darshanas, > Yoganandacharya Bhavan, > Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post > Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line: 617- 496 2990 From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Fri Jun 19 05:51:25 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (Veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 09 11:21:25 +0530 Subject: small qerry on OOA theory and Indo-european languages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086790.23782.17521784017525486987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> thanks prof. witzel for kind reply. but I am thinking of something wikipaedia says Indo-Aryan migration From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search For other uses, see Indo-Aryan migration (disambiguation) . Indo-European topics Indo-European languages Albanian ? Armenian ? Baltic Celtic ? Germanic ? Greek Indo-Iranian ( Indo-Aryan , Iranian ) Italic ? Slavic extinct: Anatolian ? Paleo-Balkans (Dacian , Phrygian , Thracian ) ? Tocharian Indo-European peoples Albanians ? Armenians Balts ? Celts ? Germanic peoples Greeks ? Indo-Aryans Iranians ? Latins ? Slavs historical: Anatolians (Hittites, Luwians ) Celts (Galatians, Gauls ) ? Germanic tribes Illyrians ? Italics ? Cimmerians ? Sarmatians Scythians ? Thracians ? Tocharians Indo-Iranians (Rigvedic tribes, Iranian tribes ) Proto-Indo-Europeans Language ? Society ? Religion *Urheimat* hypotheses Kurgan hypothesis Anatolia ? Armenia ? India ? PCT Indo-European studies Models of the *Indo-Aryan migration* discuss scenarios of prehistoric migrations of the early Indo-Aryans to their historically attested areas of settlement in the northwest of the Indian subcontinent (i.e. the area of modern Pakistan ) and from there further across all of North India. Claims of Indo-Aryan migration is primarily drawn from linguistic [1]evidence but also includes a multitude of data stemming from Vedic religion, rituals, poetics as well as some aspects of social organization and chariot technology. ** *However, recent extensive studies conducted on **genetics and archaeogenetics of the South Asian* * population have found no proof of large population migrations, since at least 10,000 years. *(bold mine) I wanted to know if somebody is working linking the genetics and indology as we put it. I am working on theme whether OOA theory handles all the issues of language etc. and possible harmonisation of both. it seems that OOA holds that no huge migrations in india in last 10 kys. then how it handles the indentical language elements among IE languages. thanks veeranarayana On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:38 AM, Michael Witzel wrote: > Dear Prof. Pandurangi, > > I think this confuses the Out of Africa movement of anatomically modern > humans, 75-65,000 (75 kya) years ago, > with the spread of Indo-Europeans after c. 3000 BCE (5 kya: they have > copper and the newly invented (Sumerian oxen drawn wagon with heavy wheels). > > There were no Indo-European speakers, nor even their hypothetical Nostratic > ancestors in 30 kya. > > The ocean shores of India (now under water after the Ice Age) were occupied > around 75-65 kya (a Tamil Nadu find), and Australia by 60-40 kya, Europe > only by 40 kya, driving out the Neanderthals... > > No connection either with the so-called Aryan invasion (migration), c. 1500 > BCE ... > > All distinct and clearly marked movements of people and their languages. > > Cheers, > > MW> > > > > > > On Jun 15, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: > > Dear friends. I have a small query. >> how Out of africa (OOA) theory handles the problem of indo-european group >> of languages had the european group seperated from that one bound to >> travel >> to south asia. India and Europe share a language to some extant. it will >> be >> difficult if they seperated 30000 years ago. >> >> or is there any material on the OOA theory and Aryan invasion theory? OOA >> is >> seperately dealt by DNA specialists. but has anybody from our clan tried >> to >> do something? >> >> >> -- >> Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi >> Head, Dept of Darshanas, >> Yoganandacharya Bhavan, >> Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post >> Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. >> > > ============ > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > > Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; > my direct line: 617- 496 2990 > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From hellwig7 at GMX.DE Fri Jun 19 13:14:50 2009 From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 09 14:14:50 +0100 Subject: Publication announcement Message-ID: <161227086793.23782.5072438613657151287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I would like to announce the publication of the following book (in German): O. Hellwig: Quecksilber und Chronometrie. Eine computerphilologische Untersuchung der mittelalterlichen indischen Alchemie. Aachen: Shaker Verlag, 2009 Best regards, O. Hellwig From juergen.neuss at FU-BERLIN.DE Fri Jun 19 23:00:45 2009 From: juergen.neuss at FU-BERLIN.DE (=?utf-8?Q?J=C3=BCrgen_Neuss?=) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 09 01:00:45 +0200 Subject: Publication announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086795.23782.2830903301682802653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hai oliver, herzlichen gl?ckwunsch zum buch. bedeutet das, da? ich die deadline des korrekturlesens deutlich ?berschritten habe? was kostet das werk? wie geht es dir? liebe gr??e j? On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:14:50 +0200, Oliver Hellwig wrote: > Dear list members, > > I would like to announce the publication of the following book (in > German): > > O. Hellwig: Quecksilber und Chronometrie. Eine computerphilologische > Untersuchung der mittelalterlichen indischen Alchemie. Aachen: Shaker > Verlag, 2009 > > Best regards, > > O. Hellwig > -- ???????????????????????????????????????????????? Dr. J?rgen Neu? Freie Universit?t Berlin Institut f?r die Sprachen und Kulturen S?dasiens K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34 a D-14195 Berlin ?????????????????????????? juergen.neuss at fu-berlin.de From juergen.neuss at FU-BERLIN.DE Sat Jun 20 09:33:14 2009 From: juergen.neuss at FU-BERLIN.DE (=?utf-8?Q?J=C3=BCrgen_Neuss?=) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 09 11:33:14 +0200 Subject: Publication announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086798.23782.16563276194652468991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> sorry folks, for distributing my last personal message to oliver hellwig to the list. jn -- ???????????????????????????????????????????????? Dr. J?rgen Neu? Freie Universit?t Berlin Institut f?r die Sprachen und Kulturen S?dasiens K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34 a D-14195 Berlin ?????????????????????????? juergen.neuss at fu-berlin.de From avandergeer at PLANET.NL Sat Jun 20 13:49:23 2009 From: avandergeer at PLANET.NL (Alexandra van der Geer) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 09 16:49:23 +0300 Subject: small qerry on OOA theory and Indo-european languages Message-ID: <161227086803.23782.1256636676232814699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear prof. Pandurangi, A mixture of events, consisting of movements of a decent number of people and the spread of their language and innovations, is not easily 'proven' by ancientDNA analysis. Do not forget that anatomically modern humans (H. sapiens sapiens) are really very similar in their DNA, so finding no proof with ancient DNA is not a proof that movements did not take place, but merely a lack of proof thereof. I am not very impressed with such data. In addition, mtDNA gives better discrimination, not nuclear DNA. Alexandra van der Geer Museum of Paleontology University of Athens Greece ----- Original Message ----- From: "Veeranarayana Pandurangi" To: Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:51 AM Subject: Re: small qerry on OOA theory and Indo-european languages thanks prof. witzel for kind reply. but I am thinking of something wikipaedia says Indo-Aryan migration From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search For other uses, see Indo-Aryan migration (disambiguation) . Indo-European topics Indo-European languages Albanian ? Armenian ? Baltic Celtic ? Germanic ? Greek Indo-Iranian ( Indo-Aryan , Iranian ) Italic ? Slavic extinct: Anatolian ? Paleo-Balkans (Dacian , Phrygian , Thracian ) ? Tocharian Indo-European peoples Albanians ? Armenians Balts ? Celts ? Germanic peoples Greeks ? Indo-Aryans Iranians ? Latins ? Slavs historical: Anatolians (Hittites, Luwians ) Celts (Galatians, Gauls ) ? Germanic tribes Illyrians ? Italics ? Cimmerians ? Sarmatians Scythians ? Thracians ? Tocharians Indo-Iranians (Rigvedic tribes, Iranian tribes ) Proto-Indo-Europeans Language ? Society ? Religion *Urheimat* hypotheses Kurgan hypothesis Anatolia ? Armenia ? India ? PCT Indo-European studies Models of the *Indo-Aryan migration* discuss scenarios of prehistoric migrations of the early Indo-Aryans to their historically attested areas of settlement in the northwest of the Indian subcontinent (i.e. the area of modern Pakistan ) and from there further across all of North India. Claims of Indo-Aryan migration is primarily drawn from linguistic [1]evidence but also includes a multitude of data stemming from Vedic religion, rituals, poetics as well as some aspects of social organization and chariot technology. ** *However, recent extensive studies conducted on **genetics and archaeogenetics of the South Asian* * population have found no proof of large population migrations, since at least 10,000 years. *(bold mine) I wanted to know if somebody is working linking the genetics and indology as we put it. I am working on theme whether OOA theory handles all the issues of language etc. and possible harmonisation of both. it seems that OOA holds that no huge migrations in india in last 10 kys. then how it handles the indentical language elements among IE languages. thanks veeranarayana On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:38 AM, Michael Witzel wrote: > Dear Prof. Pandurangi, > > I think this confuses the Out of Africa movement of anatomically modern > humans, 75-65,000 (75 kya) years ago, > with the spread of Indo-Europeans after c. 3000 BCE (5 kya: they have > copper and the newly invented (Sumerian oxen drawn wagon with heavy > wheels). > > There were no Indo-European speakers, nor even their hypothetical > Nostratic > ancestors in 30 kya. > > The ocean shores of India (now under water after the Ice Age) were > occupied > around 75-65 kya (a Tamil Nadu find), and Australia by 60-40 kya, Europe > only by 40 kya, driving out the Neanderthals... > > No connection either with the so-called Aryan invasion (migration), c. > 1500 > BCE ... > > All distinct and clearly marked movements of people and their languages. > > Cheers, > > MW> > > > > > > On Jun 15, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: > > Dear friends. I have a small query. >> how Out of africa (OOA) theory handles the problem of indo-european >> group >> of languages had the european group seperated from that one bound to >> travel >> to south asia. India and Europe share a language to some extant. it will >> be >> difficult if they seperated 30000 years ago. >> >> or is there any material on the OOA theory and Aryan invasion theory? OOA >> is >> seperately dealt by DNA specialists. but has anybody from our clan tried >> to >> do something? >> >> >> -- >> Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi >> Head, Dept of Darshanas, >> Yoganandacharya Bhavan, >> Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post >> Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. >> > > ============ > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > > Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; > my direct line: 617- 496 2990 > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.78/2185 - Release Date: 06/18/09 05:53:00 From avandergeer at PLANET.NL Sat Jun 20 14:15:43 2009 From: avandergeer at PLANET.NL (Alexandra van der Geer) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 09 17:15:43 +0300 Subject: small qerry on OOA theory and Indo-european languages Message-ID: <161227086801.23782.8766436912312546600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear prof Pandurangi, I just posted an answer to the Indology list, and only now see your private mail to me, sorry for the misunderstanding. I post it to the list as well, maybe it's of use to others as well. The Out-of-Africa model of Homo sapiens evolution is just one side of the coin, but at present the most commonly accepted (I personally have some doubts, but that doesn't matter for now). I don't know where you got your data from, but numbers of 'nearly 40-30 kyr' are wrong. It must be 0.9 million years ago (for the Out-of-Africa of H erectus it's 1.8 myr). That is when archaic H. sapiens (or H. ergaster according to some) replaced H. erectus, in Africa as well as Asia at the same time (not in Europe, where erectus evolved into antecessor-heidelbergensis-neanderthalensis lineage). Because it happened in Africa and Asia simultaneously (except for Australia, which was not 'colonized' before 40 kyr and where no replacement took place, simply because there was no H. erectus in Australia), the other model (Multiregional Model) holds that in fact everywhere an anatomically more modern (read: like us) human evolved in situ from the more archaic form H. erectus. Both models are difficult to prove, due to the lack of fossils, reliable datings and total lack of ancient DNA (older than 10 kyr is impossible, by then DNA is toast). Now, since that ancient movement, evolution continued, in morphology but the more so in culture and language. 900 kyr is a long time, and it is imaginable that several very different groups evolved, each with their own language and habits. Conflicts wiped out several of them, and they left no trace. The main groups of today might theoretically represent some of these ancient groups, I have no problem with that. But the DNA of these groups is expected to be extremely similar, because after all, the ancestral group is the same or similar, it was only time that made them different (also in morphology, I mean the differences in colour, eyelids, hairtype, proportions and so on). One group eventually might have given rise to what 900 kyr later would be called the Indo-Aryans. Certainly they were/are just one of the different cultural groups. The spread of this group, either into India and elsewhere from Central Asia or out of India to elsewhere, and the local replacement of the endemic language group by this former group then has to be interpreted as one group of anatomically modern humans becoming more dominant (in the relevant regions) than other groups. The endemic groups of Europe practically vanished with this 'invasion', but some relics can be traced in the what we call non-Indo-Aryan languages. The language that was spoken by the Neanderthals had already disappeared when H sapiens sapiens entered Europe with the Cro-Magnons around 40 kyr, and has nothing to do with any of the modern languages. I hope this helps you somewhat, Alexandra ----- Original Message ----- From: Veeranarayana Pandurangi To: avandergeer at planet.nl Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:20 PM Subject: Re: small qerry on OOA theory and Indo-european languages dear prof. Alexandra, thanks for your kind reply. it seems you are interested in this problem. hence I am adressing you alone. i did not get "THE out-of-Africa theory versus the multiregional model?" I am facing some difficulties in the theory that says--- man originated from africa and moved out of africa nearly 40-30 k years ago to asia and europe. he branched one group to europe and one to asia and india etc. then how did it happen that both branches have some common language elements. this is my problem. is there any research material on the OOA theory and Aryan invasion theory? OOA is seperately dealt by evolutionists. but has anybody from our indologists tried to do something? to apply the same principals or refute it. this is the difficulty thanks again for your interests veeranarayana On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Alexandra van der Geer wrote: Dear Veeranarayana, Are you referring to THE out-of-Africa theory versus the multiregional model??? In that case, your comma moved somewhat, because the first theory developed to explain the rise/evolution of Homo sapiens from Homo erectus at about 1.8 million years ago, far far far before something like an Indo-European language arose. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Veeranarayana Pandurangi" To: Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:25 PM Subject: small qerry on OOA theory and Indo-european languages Dear friends. I have a small query. how Out of africa (OOA) theory handles the problem of indo-european group of languages had the european group seperated from that one bound to travel to south asia. India and Europe share a language to some extant. it will be difficult if they seperated 30000 years ago. or is there any material on the OOA theory and Aryan invasion theory? OOA is seperately dealt by DNA specialists. but has anybody from our clan tried to do something? -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.78/2185 - Release Date: 06/18/09 05:53:00 -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.78/2185 - Release Date: 06/18/09 05:53:00 From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Jun 22 15:26:24 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 09 11:26:24 -0400 Subject: palmistry: recommended source? Message-ID: <161227086805.23782.16821265731758582615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone recommend a book or article in English giving the basics of traditional Indian palmistry, uncontaminated by modern Western palmistry? Thanks, Allen From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Mon Jun 22 21:37:26 2009 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 09 14:37:26 -0700 Subject: eJIM (eJournal of Indian Medicine): new website and new publications Message-ID: <161227086809.23782.10009199449900616207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> message forwarded from indology committee ? *** ? eJIM, the? eJournal of Indian Medicine, has a new website: ?http://www.indianmedicine.ub.rug.nl or http://www.indianmedicine.nl. ? Access to the journal is free, but users have to register if they want to read the full articles. Registered users will be notified by email on publication of a new issue of the journal. ? eJIM is a multidisciplinary periodical that publishes studies on South Asian medical systems by qualified scholars in philology, medicine, pharmacology, botany, anthropology and sociology. Authors from India, Sri Lanka and adjoining countries are cordially invited to contribute. ? The table of contents of the last issue of eJIM: ??On the effectiveness of Ayurvedic medical treatment: humoural pharmacology, positivistic science, and soteriology?, by Maarten Bode. ? eJIM also publishes supplements. The first supplement is: ??The trees called ?igru (Moringa sp.), along with a study of the drugs used in errhines?, by Jan Meulenbeld. ? Roelf Barkhuis Publisher of eJIM Eelde, the Netherlands ? ? From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jun 22 19:18:24 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 09 20:18:24 +0100 Subject: palmistry: recommended source? In-Reply-To: <20090622T112624Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227086807.23782.2391112882784203907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ken Zysk's book "Conjugal Love in Ancient India" is about physiognomy generally, including also "footistry" :-) -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Mon, 22 Jun 2009, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Can anyone recommend a book or article in English giving the basics of traditional Indian palmistry, uncontaminated by modern Western palmistry? > > Thanks, > > Allen From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Jun 23 18:32:22 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 09 11:32:22 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Middle Indic textbook In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086814.23782.3665409886401343458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stella, I have both of these books. What exactly is it you need from them? Just let me know and I will send it along. (The Elizarenkova memorial volume was announced to the list by Dominik on 2 December 2008, including a table of contents.) All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Jun 23 15:44:05 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 09 11:44:05 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Middle Indic textbook Message-ID: <161227086811.23782.5456621022749048100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, I received this from Dr. Benz, one of my students. I cannot recall having seen these books mentioned on the list. If so, please disregard this. Best Stella Sandahl > Subject: RE: Middle Indic textbook and cheese > Reply-To: > > 2009-06-17 > > > Firstly, Elizarenkova?s book: > Elizarenkova, Tatyana Ya. ????????????, ?.?. > ???????????? ????? ???????? ? > ???????? ????????. ?????: ????? > ????. ????????, ??????, 2004. > (Indoaryan languages of the ancient and middle periods. Series: > Languages of the world. Akademia, Moscow, 2004.) > The book is small, a mere 154 pages. But it is dense with info > (rivalling ?the Stenzler?) since the author had to squeeze > everything into the format prescribed by the editors of the > series. Oh, sorry, and it?s in Russian. > > The memorial volume: > Kulikov, L and M. Rusanov (eds.) Indologica 20. T.Ya.Elizarenkova > Memorial Volume. Moscow, 2008. > This volume is a collection of articles by experts in vedic > sanskrit. About half the articles are in Russian, a third in > English and the rest in ?difficile ? appr?cier? German. > > > From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Jun 23 19:29:43 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 09 12:29:43 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Middle Indic textbook In-Reply-To: <20090623183222.GC9842@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086816.23782.16735160351374199180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> PS. Realizing that you wrote in reply to Frederick Smith?s query: ???????????? ????? is not a textbook, but a succinct and useful overview of OIA and MIA; and the memorial volume is a collection of articles mostly on Vedic, but there are also some MIA and NIA contributions. Speaking of Tat?iana Elizarenkova, a more in?depth treatment is ???? ???? (1965): http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/11322797 also available in English as The P?li Language (1976): http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/2736885 but at this point a combination of the previously mentioned works by Geiger, von Hin?ber and Oberlies would seem to be the best combo for Pali (plus the introductions by Warder or Collins if a textbook approach is needed). And of course Pali is a good entry point to MIA in general (with A?okan inscriptions, Ardham?gadh? and the literary Prakrits as possible next steps). -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From frederick-smith at UIOWA.EDU Tue Jun 23 23:29:23 2009 From: frederick-smith at UIOWA.EDU (Smith, Frederick M) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 09 18:29:23 -0500 Subject: Middle Indic textbook In-Reply-To: <20090623192943.GG9842@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086819.23782.6733114610025974734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should thank everyone who answered my query. Much appreciated. A couple of other books I found useful were Frank southworth?s Linguistic Archaeology of South Asia and Vit Bubenik?s The Structure and Development of Middle Indo-Aryan Dialects Regards Fred Smith On 6/23/09 2:29 PM, "Stefan Baums" wrote: PS. Realizing that you wrote in reply to Frederick Smith?s query: ???????????? ????? is not a textbook, but a succinct and useful overview of OIA and MIA; and the memorial volume is a collection of articles mostly on Vedic, but there are also some MIA and NIA contributions. Speaking of Tat?iana Elizarenkova, a more in?depth treatment is ???? ???? (1965): http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/11322797 also available in English as The P?li Language (1976): http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/2736885 but at this point a combination of the previously mentioned works by Geiger, von Hin?ber and Oberlies would seem to be the best combo for Pali (plus the introductions by Warder or Collins if a textbook approach is needed). And of course Pali is a good entry point to MIA in general (with A?okan inscriptions, Ardham?gadh? and the literary Prakrits as possible next steps). -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From jmdelire at ULB.AC.BE Wed Jun 24 06:37:18 2009 From: jmdelire at ULB.AC.BE (Jean-Michel Delire) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 09 08:37:18 +0200 Subject: Jaipur Message-ID: <161227086821.23782.9111402706086062045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am going to stay in Jaipur for some time next month. As an historian of Indian science, I am very interested by the achievements of Jai Singh II and I have collected as much written information as I could about the subject. In Jaipur, I already had the occasion to thoroughly see the observatory (as well as in Delhi and Ujjain) and, as every tourist, the Man Singh Museum, the Palace and different famous buildings. But I have the feeling that I inevitably missed something that could give me some more information on Jai Singh's time. For instance, I never had the opportunity to visit the Palace Library. I am also looking for ancient, no more available, publications about Jaipur. Could anyone give me some advice about the people I should meet there, the not too famous historical places/museums I should visit, etc. ? Thank you for your help J.M.Delire, Secretary of the Alta?r Centre for the History of Science, Part-time lecturer on Indian Science and Civilization, University of Brussels From evadeclercq at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jun 25 08:06:44 2009 From: evadeclercq at HOTMAIL.COM (Eva De Clercq) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 09 09:06:44 +0100 Subject: Jaipur Message-ID: <161227086824.23782.9649890539172890987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jean Michel, Perhaps you know this one already, but I found the RCS Museum of Indology, off J. Nehru Marg, to be very interesting. I visited there many years ago, and it has a nice collection of manuscripts and artefacts. Best wishes, Eva From jmdelire at ULB.AC.BE Thu Jun 25 09:37:50 2009 From: jmdelire at ULB.AC.BE (Jean-Michel Delire) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 09 11:37:50 +0200 Subject: Jaipur Message-ID: <161227086826.23782.10839719659487664460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Eva, Thanks for this information, that I also received from Prof.S.R.Sarma recently. I never had the opportunity to visit this museum, and I surely will very soon. Nothing else about Jaipur, even very small things ? Best regards, Jean Michel >Dear Jean Michel, > >Perhaps you know this one already, but I found the RCS Museum of Indology, >off J. Nehru Marg, to be very interesting. I visited there many years ago, >and it has a nice collection of manuscripts and artefacts. > >Best wishes, > >Eva > > From Joerg.Gengnagel at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Thu Jun 25 10:33:12 2009 From: Joerg.Gengnagel at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Joerg Gengnagel) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 09 12:33:12 +0200 Subject: Jaipur In-Reply-To: <7ggk2r$1a84eh@smtp.ulb.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227086829.23782.8283050187573686161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jean Michel, I have been working in Jaipur for the last few years and managed to get access to some of the materials of the Library in the City Palace. But the situation there changes frequently and is quite complex. In case you read German I would like to draw your attention to a new study by Monika Boehm-Tettelbach (authors name: Monika Horstmann) on Savai Jai Singh: > Horstmann, Monika: > Der Zusammenhalt der Welt : Religi?se Herrschaftslegitimation und > Religionspolitik Maharaja Savai Jaisinghs (1700-1743) / Monika > Horstmann. - Wiesbaden : Harrassowitz, 2009. - 432 S. - (Khoj ; 8) > ISBN 978-3-447-05840-7 > EUR 78,00 In case you like to get more detailed information I would suggest to get in touch off list. Best wishes Joerg -- Priv.-Doz. Dr. J?rg Gengnagel Heidelberg University Collaborative Research Center 619 "Dynamics of Ritual" Subproject B5: Court Ritual in the Jaipur State www.ritualdynamik.uni-hd.de Varanasi Research Project: www.benares.uni-hd.de South Asia Institute Modern South Asian Languages and Literatures Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 D-69120 Heidelberg phone: +49(0)6221/54-8906 fax: +49(0)6221/54-8841 From nina.mirnig at UNIV.OX.AC.UK Sat Jun 27 11:08:49 2009 From: nina.mirnig at UNIV.OX.AC.UK (Nina Mirnig) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 09 12:08:49 +0100 Subject: International Indology Graduate Research Symposium Message-ID: <161227086831.23782.10255591215223558626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, The first International Indology Graduate Research Symposium (IIGRS) will be held at Oxford University on the 28-29 September 2009 - please find all the information at http://iigrs.byethost17.com . The Symposium is aimed at current graduate students as well as early stage researchers, that is to say those who have completed their last degree within the past five years. The proceedings of the conference will be published in a new series entitled ?Pu.spikaa: Tracing Ancient India Through Texts and Traditions. Contributions to Current Research in Indology?, published by Oxbow Books Press, Oxford. If you are teaching at an institution, I would be extremely grateful if you could please circulate this information. With best wishes, Nina Mirnig Candidate for the D.phil University of Oxford From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Jun 28 00:42:32 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 09 17:42:32 -0700 Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu Message-ID: <161227086834.23782.18386954367350350479.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/28/stories/2009062854701600.htm This is quite interesting, because it suggests that writing followed commerce into a rather remote area of Tamil Nadu around the 1st century BCE. (It should also be noted that there is some dispute about whether the symbols are actually writing -- a disagreement quite familiar to most of us who have been following the IV "writing"). In any event, writing or not, this find is consistent with what is described in Sangam literature. Also notable is the word for "diamond" (if the writing decipherment is correct) as vayra < vajra, through Prakrit. But the most interesting part of this is something no one mentions in the article -- the discovery of stirrups. I'm hardly an expert on this, but Wikipedia says that stirrups are depicted about the 1st century BCE in Sanchi, and that is 500 years before anywhere else. G. Hart From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Jun 28 01:03:18 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 09 18:03:18 -0700 Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu In-Reply-To: <080D4EDA-4751-4BE8-8836-A9B14465E369@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086837.23782.17816886160590126926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear George Hart, this is very interesting. The word form vayra is curious though: OIA j [?] should not go to MIA y [j] when immediately followed by another consonant. What the orthography reminds me of is Pali umlaut of [a] to [?] (written ai and ayi) before ry (von Hin?ber, ?lteres Mittelindisch, ? 147). Are there alternative Tamil etymologies that come to mind, or Tamil orthographic conventions that could explain the conjunt yr? Most importantly, though, are good images available somewhere so we can verify the reading? All best, Stefan Baums -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Jun 28 01:18:59 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 09 18:18:59 -0700 Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu In-Reply-To: <20090628010318.GC6652@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086840.23782.17485798847711993880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stefan Baums, Well, the Tamil would be pronounced vayiram, and that is the modern Tamil word and how it has been written from ancient times -- one supposes that if this is truly writing, it is an early form of Tamil Brahmi. It could be a purely Tamil development: vajra > vaciram > vayiram. There are several words where -ci- becomes -yi- (e.g. Dravidian ucir > uyir; in spoken Tamil, ucir is still used. Also macir > mayir, and macir is still used in a rather obscene meaning). There is, of course, no -j- sound in old Tamil, though it is used extensively in borrowed words starting with inscriptions (though it is never used in literary texts that are in centamiz -- I don't know offhand when the earliest inscription with "j" appears). Thanks for the interesting reply -- I realized when I wrote this that my knowledge of MIA is deficient. The word vayiram, apparently meaning "diamond," appears 3 times in Sangam Literature. It's not clear from the article why the word "diamond" would appear on the ring stand. George Hart On Jun 27, 2009, at 6:03 PM, Stefan Baums wrote: > Dear George Hart, > > this is very interesting. The word form vayra is curious though: > OIA j [?] should not go to MIA y [j] when immediately followed by > another consonant. What the orthography reminds me of is Pali > umlaut of [a] to [?] (written ai and ayi) before ry (von Hin?ber, > ?lteres Mittelindisch, ? 147). Are there alternative Tamil > etymologies that come to mind, or Tamil orthographic conventions > that could explain the conjunt yr? Most importantly, though, are > good images available somewhere so we can verify the reading? > > All best, > Stefan Baums > > -- > Stefan Baums > Asian Languages and Literature > University of Washington From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Jun 28 04:06:33 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 09 21:06:33 -0700 Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu In-Reply-To: <709448.51213.qm@web8605.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227086846.23782.1683350358059874795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is, to my mind, a serious problem with the notion that the Dravidians had no advanced culture and that the development of civilization in the South was entirely inspired by and imported from the North. Surely this is part of a colonial narrative that has, one hopes, been discredited. The vocabulary of old Tamil evidences a highly developed, intricate culture, especially regarding music, performance, and the like. Old Tamil also possesses an considerable native vocabulary describing multi-storied houses and buildings. (The word nakar meaning "many-storied house" is native; the Dravidian word is probably the source of Sanskrit nagaram). To my mind much of Indian culture developed symbiotically both in the South and North, with both areas influencing one another from at least the first century BCE (and probably earlier) to produce a hybrid culture in both areas. I don't know how many historians of Britain would buy the argument that everything advanced or noteworthy in old English culture came from the Romans, but there is little likelihood that the great cities of the Sangam era -- all of which had Tamil names -- were built as outposts by invaders as London was. What is true is that from at least the Mauryan period, travelers and merchants went between north and south pretty much as they do today. They carried ideas and cultural themes back and forth all the time, so that by the first century BCE the Aryan north and Dravidian south had much in common and owed a great deal to one another. The process was (and continues to be) an extremely complex one, and whether a feature of Indian culture is ultimately "Dravidian" or "Aryan" is often determined by the cultural inclination of the person writing about it rather than by solid evidence. There are, however, areas in which old Tamil sheds important light on Indian culture: it suggests, for example, that the existence of caste (jaati, including Dalits) was pre-Aryan and that many literary conventions made their way from a Southern folk literature through Maharashtrian Prakrit into the Sanskrit canon. Palani is the site of one of the most famous (and second richest) temples in India. It is near Madurai and has been a site of Murugan worship for almost 2000 years -- see http://palani.org/. G. Hart On Jun 27, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > > The report is hardly realistic in its socio-cultural assessment but > the findings are interesting. I tried Palani in the map without > success.Has anybody any idea about its location?. The dating, if > correct, might place it within the lifetime of or as linked to > Arikamedu whose modus vevendi, according to the first reports (quite > old now and may be outdated), was limked to the urban centres of > the North.. Its cultural-economic independence, too, was as much as > that of Britain during Roman occupation and the few years that > followed. The follow up of excavations is often not very > encouraging. But link to proved Mauryan expeditions must be sought. > DB >> > --- On Sun, 28/6/09, George Hart wrote: > > > From: George Hart > Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Sunday, 28 June, 2009, 6:12 AM > > > See http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/28/stories/2009062854701600.htm > > This is quite interesting, because it suggests that writing followed > commerce into a rather remote area of Tamil Nadu around the 1st > century BCE. (It should also be noted that there is some dispute > about whether the symbols are actually writing -- a disagreement > quite familiar to most of us who have been following the IV > "writing"). In any event, writing or not, this find is consistent > with what is described in Sangam literature. Also notable is the > word for "diamond" (if the writing decipherment is correct) as vayra > < vajra, through Prakrit. But the most interesting part of this is > something no one mentions in the article -- the discovery of > stirrups. I'm hardly an expert on this, but Wikipedia says that > stirrups are depicted about the 1st century BCE in Sanchi, and that > is 500 years before anywhere else. G. Hart > > > > Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights > and more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Jun 28 05:44:51 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 09 22:44:51 -0700 Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu In-Reply-To: <0D6A7B7D-293A-4DE2-9458-6947232794ED@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086851.23782.12480470263115851289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Pali (and other MIA) word is vajira with epenthesis, so I imagine that that is what was borrowed into Tamil. The further sound change of intervocalic j to y could have happened either in MIA (certainly in the Northwest at the same time) or, apparently, in Tamil. ? Why it would be written vayra (not vayira) in the new inscription remains puzzling, especially if it is still vayiram in modern Tamil, but maybe the newsreport just omitted the i. Well, I assume photos will be published in due course, and then we will see. Best regards, Stefan Baums -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sun Jun 28 02:04:05 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 09 07:34:05 +0530 Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu Message-ID: <161227086843.23782.9899901866967993801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ? The report is hardly realistic in its socio-cultural assessment but the findings are interesting. I tried Palani in the map without success.Has anybody any idea about its location?. The dating, if correct, might place it within the lifetime of or as linked to?Arikamedu whose modus vevendi, according to the first reports (quite old now and may be outdated), ?was limked to the urban centres of the North.. Its cultural-economic independence, too,?was as much as that of Britain during Roman occupation and the few years that followed. The follow up of excavations is often not very encouraging. But link to proved Mauryan expeditions must be sought. DB? > --- On Sun, 28/6/09, George Hart wrote: From: George Hart Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 28 June, 2009, 6:12 AM See http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/28/stories/2009062854701600.htm This is quite interesting, because it suggests that writing followed commerce into a rather remote area of Tamil Nadu around the 1st century BCE.? (It should also be noted that there is some dispute about whether the symbols are actually writing -- a disagreement quite familiar to most of us who have been following the IV "writing").? In any event, writing or not, this find is consistent with what is described in Sangam literature. Also notable is the word for "diamond" (if the writing decipherment is correct) as vayra < vajra, through Prakrit.? But the most interesting part of this is something no one mentions in the article -- the discovery of stirrups.? I'm hardly an expert on this, but Wikipedia says that stirrups are depicted about the 1st century BCE in Sanchi, and that is 500 years before anywhere else.? G. Hart Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sun Jun 28 04:30:35 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 09 10:00:35 +0530 Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu Message-ID: <161227086849.23782.2468578649948163847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Reading any such thing in my submission is artificial and proceeds from observation of other cases. The difference is visible in the preservation of the languages and the inability of IA languages to replace them as in the North. But that the Mauryan did make expeditions is a proved fact. Hence there is nothing wrong in looking into possible connections. I stand by my views. DB --- On Sun, 28/6/09, George Hart wrote: From: George Hart Subject: Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 28 June, 2009, 9:36 AM There is, to my mind, a serious problem with the notion that the Dravidians had no advanced culture and that the development of civilization in the South was entirely inspired by and imported from the North.? Surely this is part of a colonial narrative that has, one hopes, been discredited.? The vocabulary of old Tamil evidences a highly developed, intricate culture, especially regarding music, performance, and the like.? Old Tamil also possesses an considerable native vocabulary describing multi-storied houses and buildings.? (The word nakar meaning "many-storied house" is native; the Dravidian word is probably the source of Sanskrit nagaram). To my mind much of Indian culture developed symbiotically both in the South and North, with both areas influencing one another from at least the first century BCE (and probably earlier) to produce a hybrid culture in both areas.? I don't know how many historians of Britain would buy the argument that everything advanced or noteworthy in old English culture came from the Romans, but there is little likelihood that the great cities of the Sangam era -- all of which had Tamil names -- were built as outposts by invaders as London was.? What is true is that from at least the Mauryan period, travelers and merchants went between north and south pretty much as they do today.? They carried ideas and cultural themes back and forth all the time, so that by the first century BCE the Aryan north and Dravidian south had much in common and owed a great deal to one another. The process was (and continues to be) an extremely complex one, and whether a feature of Indian culture is ultimately "Dravidian" or "Aryan" is often determined by the cultural inclination of the person writing about it rather than by solid evidence.? There are, however, areas in which old Tamil sheds important light on Indian culture: it suggests, for example, that the existence of caste (jaati, including Dalits) was pre-Aryan and that many literary conventions made their way from a Southern folk literature through Maharashtrian Prakrit into the Sanskrit canon.? Palani is the site of one of the most famous (and second richest) temples in India.? It is near Madurai and has been a site of Murugan worship for almost 2000 years -- see http://palani.org/.? G. Hart On Jun 27, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > > The report is hardly realistic in its socio-cultural assessment but the findings are interesting. I tried Palani in the map without success.Has anybody any idea about its location?. The dating, if correct, might place it within the lifetime of or as linked to Arikamedu whose modus vevendi, according to the first reports (quite old now and may be outdated),? was limked to the urban centres of the North.. Its cultural-economic independence, too, was as much as that of Britain during Roman occupation and the few years that followed. The follow up of excavations is often not very encouraging. But link to proved Mauryan expeditions must be sought. > DB >> > --- On Sun, 28/6/09, George Hart wrote: > > > From: George Hart > Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Sunday, 28 June, 2009, 6:12 AM > > > See http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/28/stories/2009062854701600.htm > > This is quite interesting, because it suggests that writing followed commerce into a rather remote area of Tamil Nadu around the 1st century BCE.? (It should also be noted that there is some dispute about whether the symbols are actually writing -- a disagreement quite familiar to most of us who have been following the IV "writing").? In any event, writing or not, this find is consistent with what is described in Sangam literature. Also notable is the word for "diamond" (if the writing decipherment is correct) as vayra < vajra, through Prakrit.? But the most interesting part of this is something no one mentions in the article -- the discovery of stirrups.? I'm hardly an expert on this, but Wikipedia says that stirrups are depicted about the 1st century BCE in Sanchi, and that is 500 years before anywhere else.? G. Hart > > > >? ? ? Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET http://cricket.yahoo.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jun 28 16:12:26 2009 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 09 12:12:26 -0400 Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu Message-ID: <161227086862.23782.18434357586346559572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The view that IA/Sanskrit was the giver and Dravidian/Tamil was the borrower can be found long before Vasco da Gama came to India. An example is the statement of cEn2Avaraiyar, a medieval commentator on tolkAppiyam, that Tamil words are not borrowed by the northern language (Sanskrit) but northern language words are used in all regions. That there were some people in Tamil Nadu with the attitude that Sanskrit was superior to Tamil can be inferred from the verse beginning with "Ariyam nan2Ru tamiz tItu..." quoted by pErAciriyar, another commentator on tolkAppiyam, in his explanation for 'mantiram' in ceyyuLiyal. I agree that the IA-Dravidian interaction was an extremely complex one and that Classical Tamil does shed important light on Indian culture. However, Classical Tamil data do not suggest that the "existence of caste (jaati, including Dalits) was pre-Aryan" if by 'pre-Aryan' Dravidian is being referred to. See "On the Unintended Influence of Janinism on the Development of Caste in Post Classical Tamil Society," International Journal of Jaina Studies (Online), Vol.4, No. 2 (2008), 1-65. (_http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf_ (http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf) ) Regards, S. Palaniappan In a message dated 6/27/2009 11:07:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, glhart at BERKELEY.EDU writes: There is, to my mind, a serious problem with the notion that the Dravidians had no advanced culture and that the development of civilization in the South was entirely inspired by and imported from the North. Surely this is part of a colonial narrative that has, one hopes, been discredited. The vocabulary of old Tamil evidences a highly developed, intricate culture, especially regarding music, performance, and the like. Old Tamil also possesses an considerable native vocabulary describing multi-storied houses and buildings. (The word nakar meaning "many-storied house" is native; the Dravidian word is probably the source of Sanskrit nagaram). To my mind much of Indian culture developed symbiotically both in the South and North, with both areas influencing one another from at least the first century BCE (and probably earlier) to produce a hybrid culture in both areas. I don't know how many historians of Britain would buy the argument that everything advanced or noteworthy in old English culture came from the Romans, but there is little likelihood that the great cities of the Sangam era -- all of which had Tamil names -- were built as outposts by invaders as London was. What is true is that from at least the Mauryan period, travelers and merchants went between north and south pretty much as they do today. They carried ideas and cultural themes back and forth all the time, so that by the first century BCE the Aryan north and Dravidian south had much in common and owed a great deal to one another. The process was (and continues to be) an extremely complex one, and whether a feature of Indian culture is ultimately "Dravidian" or "Aryan" is often determined by the cultural inclination of the person writing about it rather than by solid evidence. There are, however, areas in which old Tamil sheds important light on Indian culture: it suggests, for example, that the existence of caste (jaati, including Dalits) was pre-Aryan and that many literary conventions made their way from a Southern folk literature through Maharashtrian Prakrit into the Sanskrit canon. Palani is the site of one of the most famous (and second richest) temples in India. It is near Madurai and has been a site of Murugan worship for almost 2000 years -- see http://palani.org/. G. Hart **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323006x1201367222/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jun eExcfooterNO62) From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jun 28 16:42:26 2009 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 09 12:42:26 -0400 Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu Message-ID: <161227086864.23782.4904198183676724057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See _http://www.indiaatitsbest.com/tamil-nadu/map-of-tamil-nadu.html_ (http://www.indiaatitsbest.com/tamil-nadu/map-of-tamil-nadu.html) Palani is to the northwest of Madurai. For its topographical features of the area, see _http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/map/google_map_Tamil_Nadu.htm_ (http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/map/google_map_Tamil_Nadu.htm) Regards, Palaniappan In a message dated 6/27/2009 9:05:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time, dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN writes: I tried Palani in the map without success.Has anybody any idea about its location?. **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323006x1201367222/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jun eExcfooterNO62) From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jun 28 17:00:37 2009 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 09 13:00:37 -0400 Subject: Orthographic conventions (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu Message-ID: <161227086867.23782.403732528665444747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If the disagreement between epigraphists is resolved in favor of the signs being letters, then there is no need to consider the three characters to be Prakrit and hence vayra to be a misprint for va-yi-ra. JLC got it right. Please refer to Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. 369 where we have 'matiray' as a variant of 'matirai' in p.351. Regards, Palaniappan In a message dated 6/28/2009 9:28:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time, falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE writes: The spelling va-yra presupposes a Brahmi aksara yra which is unattested anywhere in the periods concerned and extremely unlikely anywhere in early Prakrit "orthography", be it a Northern or Southern one. Stefan was most likely right when he expected a simple misprint for va-yi-ra. H. Falk **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323006x1201367222/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jun eExcfooterNO62) From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Sun Jun 28 11:15:38 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 09 13:15:38 +0200 Subject: Orthographic conventions (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu In-Reply-To: <20090628054451.GB13588@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086854.23782.4392698998149056482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stefan Baums, Dear George Hart, dear list members, it is possible that the spelling is simply dictated by the orthographic conventions of that time. In the system which is described/codified for ancient tamil in the Tolk?ppiyam E?uttatik?ram (TE) (i.e. the first book [having 483 s?tras] inside of the Tolk?ppiyam [a treatise consisting of 3 books]) there are 12 vowels (uyir) and 18 consonants (mey), to which must be added 3 special items (over-short u, over-short i and ?ytam), which were probably not written with special signs at the time but which are important in the precise description of the conditions of application of a number of morpho-phonological rules and also for the correct scansion of verse. The twelve vowels are: a ? i ? u ? e ? ai o ? au and the eighteen consonants are: k ? c ? ? ? t n p m y r l v ? ? ? ? All the vowels (except au, to my current knowledge) are attested inside the corpus of early inscriptions but there are nevertheless a number of things to be noted. "ai" is nominally a long (ne?il) vowel but is in fact "reduced" in duration most of the time See what s?tra TE57i says [i.e. s?tra 57 according to the numbering by the commentator I?amp?ra?ar]: ?ra?a p?ku mi?a?um? ru??? // t?ru? k?lai mo?ivayi ???a (TE57i). "There are also environments/places wherein (they) become one a?apu (unit measure of time). When one examines, (it will be seen that it happens so when they are employed) in words" [TE57i translation by V.S. Rajam, 1981] Later grammarians explain that, except when naming itself (in a metalinguistic context), the vowel "ai" is reduced [they call it "aik?rak ku?ukkam] and has a duration of 1 measure, which seems to mean that what is written "ai" should in fact be understood as referring to a short vowel [which we could prefer to write "?"], with a duration of 1 unit of time. ["aik?rak ku?ukkam" was precisely the topic of a presentation I made at the last ICHoLS conference, at Potsdam, in september 2008, and which should be published at some point in the future] However, one must add that several grammarians insist on the fact that "ai" has sometimes a duration of 1,5 measure (especially in the first syllable of words). That seems to mean that: -- in the initial syllable of a word, what is written "ai" stands for "ay" or "?y" (the opposition a/? being neutralized before "y"), which has a duration of 1.5 measures -- in other syllables, what is written "ai" stands for the short vowel "?" ["aik?rak ku?ukkam" = reduced "ai"), which has a duration of 1 measure. However, a number of other facts have to be mentionned: TE54i and TE56i describe what is often explained [by later writers] as alternate spellings for "ai" [they mention those spellings as "p?li e?uttu"], but it is possible that it was in some cases the only way to spell. The spelling convention described in TE56i makes use of "y" (I?amp?ra?ar says that "aiva?am" can be written "ayva?am" As explained by I.Mahadevan[2003:183], the earliest occurence of "ai" as standalone "initial vowel" is found in a 6th century A.D. va??e?uttu inscription at Thirunatharkunru (see Mahadevan[2003:473] for an idealized facsimil?). However, combined with a consonant, the "medial -ai" sign is found from the 2nd century B.C. onwards (see Mahadevan[2003:317). I.Mahadevan [2003:269] notes that "-ai" is often followed by "paragogic" suffix "y". All this may suggest that the spelling "vayra" (as given by the article in The Hindu) might be the spelling [va-ya-ra] used in those days to write what would be written nowadays as vai-ra (or vai-ra-m). It may have been pronounced "v?yra" (or v?ra ?). Of course, it is slightly (very? :-) unreasonable to speculate solely on the basis of an article in The Hindu, but hopefully, we shall have in the near future more scholarly sources of information, thanks to scholars such as Y.Subbarayalu, K. Rajan and I.Mahadevan. But of course, journalists are always impatient. Best wishes -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) Stefan Baums a ?crit : > The Pali (and other MIA) word is vajira with epenthesis, so I > imagine that that is what was borrowed into Tamil. The further > sound change of intervocalic j to y could have happened either in > MIA (certainly in the Northwest at the same time) or, apparently, > in Tamil. ? Why it would be written vayra (not vayira) in the new > inscription remains puzzling, especially if it is still vayiram in > modern Tamil, but maybe the newsreport just omitted the i. Well, I > assume photos will be published in due course, and then we will > see. > > Best regards, > Stefan Baums > > From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Jun 28 20:25:38 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 09 13:25:38 -0700 Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086872.23782.17939735177875970898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Palaniappan and I have long disagreed on what the Sangam texts say regarding caste. I would only remark that Dalits (leatherworkers, washermen, drummers and the like) are called "izhicanoor" -- "low ones" -- in the poems and that the jaati (called kuTi in old Tamil) system clearly grew organically and is very old. The caste system is far too complex to have been dreamed up and imposed by the 2-3% of the old Tamil population who were not technically Sudras. Of course, there are innumerable caste divisions whom the tiny Brahmin minority would call "Sudra" or "Pancama." As for the Mauryas -- yes, there is a famous Sangam poem that describes the incursion of the Mauryas into Tamil Nadu, but there is no evidence whatsoever that they annexed the area as part of their empire. Rather, this was probably something of a raiding expedition. Dipak Bhattacharya, perhaps thinking of the Mauryan colonization of Sri Lanka, seems to envision a scenario in which the Mauryas settled areas of Tamil Nadu and built (fortified?) cities there to keep the local population subdued as happened when the Romans set up Londinium and other centers in Britain. There is not a shred of evidence for this, as far as I know. It would seem, rather, that there was a continual spread of technological innovation, mostly from North to South -- metals, writing, astrology, and most likely some but not all aspects of city building. There was also spread of cultural elements from South to North -- including most probably elements of music and dance. One does not encounter in Sangam literature any sense that Northerners were invaders -- in fact, Aryans are mentioned as circus performers, as they apparently brought their acts to the Tamil country. It should be added that travel in India in the first centuries CE was quite difficult, and that Tamil Nadu was pretty well isolated by the mountains to the north and the wilderness of such places as the Eastern Ghats. Much of the contact with the north was probably by sea. It was, I would suggest, this isolation that accounts for the development of Tamil as a separate tradition from Sanskrit with its own peculiar literature and language. Subsequently, Tamil was more and more incorporated into the pan-Indian tradition. Regarding the Mauryas, it is also notable that the Jains seem to have been far more important in early Tamil Nadu than the Buddhists. And as for stirrups, John Huntington makes a convincing case that the finds at Porunthal could not be stirrups -- unfortunately, I cannot find any images from Porunthal of the so-called stirrup. From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Sun Jun 28 20:11:25 2009 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 09 16:11:25 -0400 Subject: Stirrups at Sanchi (or Wikipedia strikes again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086869.23782.9708111331571079580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Alexandra and any other interested list members, As a result of George Hart's note about the Wikipedia citation of stirrups at Sanchi I examined all of our recent (2007) high resolution digital images of the complete sculptural remains at Sanchi. In these images, we are able to examine every single figure in each of the reliefs at a nearly full-screen (2560 x1600 pixels) image. Horse riders are quite commonly depicted on both the earlier Sanchi Stupa 2 vedika (ca. 120-100 BCE) and on the toranas of Stupa 1 (ca. 25 BCE). In no case could I identify a rider using stirrups. However, in one or two images on the Stupa 2 vedika, the chinch strap that holds the saddle blanked in place could possibly be confused with a stirrup strap by some one ignorant of horse tack. However these are sculptural anomalies and, as once serious horseman, I can assure you that they are not supporting stirrups in any fashion. Simply stated, after a detailed examination of the evidence there are no stirrups depicted at Sanchi. John John C. Huntington, Professor (Buddhist Art and Methodologies) Department of the History of Art The Ohio State University Columbus, OH, U.S.A. On Jun 28, 2009, at 11:04 AM, Alexandra van der Geer wrote: > I could find no depiction of a stirrup in Sanchi stone sculptures, > nor in Gandharan ones. Has anybody a picture of or precise reference > to such evidence? > > Alexandra van der Geer > Athens / Leiden From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Sun Jun 28 14:27:47 2009 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 09 16:27:47 +0200 Subject: Orthographic conventions (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu In-Reply-To: <4A4750DA.9050207@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227086856.23782.12512630770073816202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The spelling va-yra presupposes a Brahmi aksara yra which is unattested anywhere in the periods concerned and extremely unlikely anywhere in early Prakrit "orthography", be it a Northern or Southern one. Stefan was most likely right when he expected a simple misprint for va-yi-ra. H. Falk From avandergeer at PLANET.NL Sun Jun 28 15:04:12 2009 From: avandergeer at PLANET.NL (Alexandra van der Geer) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 09 18:04:12 +0300 Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu Message-ID: <161227086859.23782.4788516994367349724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I could find no depiction of a stirrup in Sanchi stone sculptures, nor in Gandharan ones. Has anybody a picture of or precise reference to such evidence? Alexandra van der Geer Athens / Leiden ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Hart" To: Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 7:06 AM Subject: Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu > There is, to my mind, a serious problem with the notion that the > Dravidians had no advanced culture and that the development of > civilization in the South was entirely inspired by and imported from > the North. Surely this is part of a colonial narrative that has, one > hopes, been discredited. The vocabulary of old Tamil evidences a > highly developed, intricate culture, especially regarding music, > performance, and the like. Old Tamil also possesses an considerable > native vocabulary describing multi-storied houses and buildings. (The > word nakar meaning "many-storied house" is native; the Dravidian word > is probably the source of Sanskrit nagaram). To my mind much of Indian > culture developed symbiotically both in the South and North, with both > areas influencing one another from at least the first century BCE (and > probably earlier) to produce a hybrid culture in both areas. I don't > know how many historians of Britain would buy the argument that > everything advanced or noteworthy in old English culture came from the > Romans, but there is little likelihood that the great cities of the > Sangam era -- all of which had Tamil names -- were built as outposts > by invaders as London was. What is true is that from at least the > Mauryan period, travelers and merchants went between north and south > pretty much as they do today. They carried ideas and cultural themes > back and forth all the time, so that by the first century BCE the > Aryan north and Dravidian south had much in common and owed a great > deal to one another. The process was (and continues to be) an > extremely complex one, and whether a feature of Indian culture is > ultimately "Dravidian" or "Aryan" is often determined by the cultural > inclination of the person writing about it rather than by solid > evidence. There are, however, areas in which old Tamil sheds > important light on Indian culture: it suggests, for example, that the > existence of caste (jaati, including Dalits) was pre-Aryan and that > many literary conventions made their way from a Southern folk > literature through Maharashtrian Prakrit into the Sanskrit canon. > Palani is the site of one of the most famous (and second richest) > temples in India. It is near Madurai and has been a site of Murugan > worship for almost 2000 years -- see http://palani.org/. G. Hart > > On Jun 27, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > >> >> The report is hardly realistic in its socio-cultural assessment but >> the findings are interesting. I tried Palani in the map without >> success.Has anybody any idea about its location?. The dating, if >> correct, might place it within the lifetime of or as linked to >> Arikamedu whose modus vevendi, according to the first reports (quite >> old now and may be outdated), was limked to the urban centres of >> the North.. Its cultural-economic independence, too, was as much as >> that of Britain during Roman occupation and the few years that >> followed. The follow up of excavations is often not very >> encouraging. But link to proved Mauryan expeditions must be sought. >> DB >>> >> --- On Sun, 28/6/09, George Hart wrote: >> >> >> From: George Hart >> Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Sunday, 28 June, 2009, 6:12 AM >> >> >> See http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/28/stories/2009062854701600.htm >> >> This is quite interesting, because it suggests that writing followed >> commerce into a rather remote area of Tamil Nadu around the 1st >> century BCE. (It should also be noted that there is some dispute >> about whether the symbols are actually writing -- a disagreement >> quite familiar to most of us who have been following the IV >> "writing"). In any event, writing or not, this find is consistent >> with what is described in Sangam literature. Also notable is the >> word for "diamond" (if the writing decipherment is correct) as vayra >> < vajra, through Prakrit. But the most interesting part of this is >> something no one mentions in the article -- the discovery of >> stirrups. I'm hardly an expert on this, but Wikipedia says that >> stirrups are depicted about the 1st century BCE in Sanchi, and that >> is 500 years before anywhere else. G. Hart >> >> >> >> Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights >> and more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.93/2206 - Release Date: 06/27/09 17:55:00 From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Mon Jun 29 07:42:57 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 09 09:42:57 +0200 Subject: Prof. V.I. Subramoniam (1926-2009) passed away Message-ID: <161227086877.23782.9361932634399991985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology list members, the following sad news was just announced by Professor Krishnaswamy Nachimuthu (Jawaharlal Nehru University). ************ Date : Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:31:31 +0530 Prof.VIS passed away around 8am today after hospitalisation for about two weeks and his last rites will be held in the evening at 4pm in Thiruvananthapuram.Please inform friends. K. Nachimuthu ******************** -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) P.S. I include as an appendix to this message the self-description provided to me by Professor V.I. Subramoniam in 2004, at the time when I was editing the Festschrift for Fran?ois Gros (/South-Indian Horizons/) to which he contributed ************* V.I. Subramoniam (Vadasery Iyemperumal Subramoniam) (b. 1926) is emeritus professor of Tamil Language and Literature and later of Linguistics, University of Kerala, Thiruvananthapuram, and is currently Honorary Director and founding member of the International School of Dravidian Linguistics, Thiruvananthapuram. He is also Honorary Editor of the International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics. He received his M.A. in Tamil Language and Literature from the Annamalai University and his Ph.D. from the Indiana University, U.S.A. The Jaffna University, Sri Lanka and the Tamil University, Tanjavur conferred on him Honorary D.Litt. degrees. He was the first Vice-Chancellor of the Tamil University, Tanjavur. His efforts to establish a Dravidian University in Kuppam, Andhra Pradesh resulted in the creation of a university there, and he was its first Pro-Chancellor. He has guided a number of important dissertations on the language of the Tamil Ca?kam and medieval texts and on Malayalam, apart from history and folklore. His own publications cover a wide range of subjects such as literary theories, periodization of literature, descriptive, historical and comparative linguistics and of recently brain and language. His Index of Pu?an????u [?????????] (1962), Dialect Survey of Malayalam (1974) and A Descriptive Analysis of a dialect of Tamil (2003) belong to a long list of publications (16 books and a hundred and two articles in professional journals). He was one of the editors of some of the Proceedings of the International Conference-Seminar of Tamil Studies organised by the International Association of Tamil Research. He has edited the three volume Dravidian Encyclopaedia. From mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU Mon Jun 29 01:32:32 2009 From: mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 09 11:32:32 +1000 Subject: email for Prof Hans Henrich Hock Message-ID: <161227086875.23782.2281260926052031135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues I am hoping that some kind person could send me off-list a current email address for Prof Hans Henrich Hock. hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu seems to be out of order. Please send to: mccomas.taylor at anu.edu.au Thanks in advance McComas From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Mon Jun 29 12:45:31 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 09 14:45:31 +0200 Subject: Nubian tribe? Message-ID: <161227086880.23782.7535439954773563220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, an Arabist colleague writes to me as follows: I'm writing an encyclopaedia article about a Nubian tribe known as Barabra which lived along the Nile river in southern Egypt and the Sudan. Now I came across a reference that "Sanskrit historians write already about the Old Race of the Barabra living along the Upper Nile." Do you have any idea where I could find out what and when and who? I don't have any idea, but can anyone help? -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jun 29 16:47:59 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 09 17:47:59 +0100 Subject: palmistry: recommended source? In-Reply-To: <20090622T112624Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227086889.23782.14984135623030179919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cf also http://elisafreschi.blogspot.com/2009/05/palmistry-examples-in-indian.html -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Mon, 22 Jun 2009, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Can anyone recommend a book or article in English giving the basics of > traditional Indian palmistry, uncontaminated by modern Western > palmistry? > > Thanks, > > Allen From clarsha at MCMASTER.CA Mon Jun 29 21:48:38 2009 From: clarsha at MCMASTER.CA (Shayne Clarke) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 09 17:48:38 -0400 Subject: 2010 India Research Fellowship announcement Message-ID: <161227086894.23782.16600461684218866744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, The following fellowship announcement may be of interest to scholars of Indian citizenship. 2010 India Research Fellowship The Centre for Studies in Religion and Society invites applications from Indian scholars for a visiting research fellowship appointment at the University of Victoria. Topics: Applications are welcomed for projects that meet the Centre?s mandate of promoting the interdisciplinary study of religion in relation to any and all aspects of society and culture, both contemporary and historical. Topics may include but are not limited to examinations of religious themes within the areas of ethics, health, environment, technology, public policy, human conflict, art, literature, the media, law, philosophy or the natural sciences. The fellowship is particularly targeted at scholars working on religion in modern India, though other topics will also be considered. Applications from all disciplinary backgrounds are welcome. Eligibility: Indian citizens who are completing their doctoral work, are engaged in post-doctoral research, or who have regular academic appointments in India. Value: Return travel to and from Victoria and reasonable food and accommodation expenses for the duration of the visit. In addition, fellowship recipients will receive private office space centrally located on the scenic University of Victoria campus; a congenial retreat-like setting; university privileges; and enhanced opportunities for research networking, stimulating and regular scholarly exchange, and participation in the Centre?s wide range of academic and social activities. Term: Four to six months, beginning between January and March 2010. Conditions: Fellows are expected to conduct their work in the Centre's quarters, to participate actively in the programs and activities of the Centre and to give at least one public seminar or lecture on the theme of their research. Application Procedure: Applications should include a descriptive title, a detailed statement of the research project (maximum 5 pages), an up-to-date curriculum vitae and two reference letters (to be forwarded to the CSRS under separate cover). The Centre may also solicit the opinions of other referees. Please submit completed applications to: Dr. Paul Bramadat, Director Centre for Studies in Religion and Society University of Victoria Box 1700 STN CSC, Victoria, BC, V8W 2Y2 CANADA Applications may also be forwarded by e-mail to csrs at uvic.ca. Selection will be made by the CSRS Program Committee based on the academic merit of the proposal and the ability of the candidate to contribute to the academic and social life of the CSRS. Shortlisted applicants will be invited for an interview with the CSRS director in Delhi in September 2009. The successful applicant will be announced at the beginning of October 2009. Deadline: September 9, 2009 This fellowship is made possible by a grant from the Office of the Vice-President Research at the University of Victoria. For more information about the CSRS and its fellowship programs visit www.csrs.uvic.ca, or phone 250-721-6325. Sincerely, Shayne Clarke ------------------- Shayne Clarke Department of Religious Studies McMaster University University Hall, Room 104 1280 Main Street West Hamilton, Ontario L8S 4K1 CANADA Phone: 905 525 9140, ext. 23389 Fax: 905 525 8161 clarsha[at]mcmaster.ca http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/clarsha/ From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jun 29 16:52:11 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 09 17:52:11 +0100 Subject: Jaipur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086891.23782.4984861982927224430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, I was going to suggest the same place. It was in Gangwal Park, if I remember rightly (may be the same as the location mentioned below). It was founded by "Vyakul" Sharma, who may be no more. It's an extraordinary collection, rich in MSS (there's a catalogue of some of them), including alchemical texts, locks, stones, images, and much more. It's a quirky personal collection, and richer for that, reminiscent of the Raj Dinkar Kelkar collection in Pune, ... and there's some info here: http://jaipur.clickindia.com/travel/museumofindology.html DW -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Thu, 25 Jun 2009, Eva De Clercq wrote: > Dear Jean Michel, > > Perhaps you know this one already, but I found the RCS Museum of Indology, > off J. Nehru Marg, to be very interesting. I visited there many years ago, > and it has a nice collection of manuscripts and artefacts. > > Best wishes, > > Eva > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Jun 29 13:35:56 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 09 19:05:56 +0530 Subject: Chancelier in a French University Message-ID: <161227086882.23782.10698471060902170566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Houben, Could you kindly let me know the if the term ?'Chancelier', with reference to a French University, means what one understands by 'Vice-Chancellor' in India or by 'Rektor'?in Holland or Germany. The French equivalent is 'Recteur', I heard somewhere. Will you kindly clarify? Best wishes DB --- On Tue, 23/6/09, Jan Houben wrote: From: Jan Houben Subject: eJIM (eJournal of Indian Medicine): new website and new publications To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 23 June, 2009, 3:07 AM message forwarded from indology committee ? *** ? eJIM, the? eJournal of Indian Medicine, has a new website: ?http://www.indianmedicine.ub.rug.nl or http://www.indianmedicine.nl. ? Access to the journal is free, but users have to register if they want to read the full articles. Registered users will be notified by email on publication of a new issue of the journal. ? eJIM is a multidisciplinary periodical that publishes studies on South Asian medical systems by qualified scholars in philology, medicine, pharmacology, botany, anthropology and sociology. Authors from India, Sri Lanka and adjoining countries are cordially invited to contribute. ? The table of contents of the last issue of eJIM: ??On the effectiveness of Ayurvedic medical treatment: humoural pharmacology, positivistic science, and soteriology?, by Maarten Bode. ? eJIM also publishes supplements. The first supplement is: ??The trees called ?igru (Moringa sp.), along with a study of the drugs used in errhines?, by Jan Meulenbeld. ? Roelf Barkhuis Publisher of eJIM Eelde, the Netherlands ? ? ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET http://cricket.yahoo.com From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Jun 29 13:42:09 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 09 19:12:09 +0530 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227086887.23782.2627608830134196121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am extremely sorry to have sent a personal mail to the List DB See the Web's breaking stories, chosen by people like you. Check out Yahoo! Buzz. http://in.buzz.yahoo.com/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Jun 29 13:42:18 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 09 19:12:18 +0530 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227086884.23782.1459081635308187624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am extremely sorry to have sent a personal mail to the List DB Looking for local information? Find it on Yahoo! Local http://in.local.yahoo.com/ From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Tue Jun 30 09:17:25 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 09 11:17:25 +0200 Subject: New discovery in Tamil Nadu In-Reply-To: <0D6A7B7D-293A-4DE2-9458-6947232794ED@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086896.23782.10009365990676830929.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is possible that other interpretations will be put forward. In the issue 19 of the journal ?va?am (july 2008) there is, on pp.137-138, an article by V. Vedachalam, one of the scholars who are mentionned by The Hindu. The abstract (on p.xvi) reads: "47. V. Vedachalam, /Discovery of Tamil Brahmi inscribed pottery in a Red Sea port/. A team of British Archaeologists have recently discovered a broken pottery with Tamil Brahmi letters at Quseir-al-Qadim, near Red Sea, in Egypt. Earlier the Brahmi letters were deciphered as /paanai ori/ {???? ??? / p??ai o?i}, 'a pot which hangs down in a chain or rope'. But it is now found that it should be a name of a person 'Panai ori' {??? ??? / pa?ai ??i} as the other potsherds with Brahmi letters, found earlier, in the 1st century A.D., in the same region, also bear the names of persons. ...." I suppose it is not impossible that it will be later suggested that the string "va-ya-ra" (vayra?) stands for the name of a person and does not mean "diamond". The same issue of ?va?am-19 (july 2008) contains a very interesting article by Professor Y. Subbarayalu on pp.189-221 which has for its title: "????? ??????????? ????????? ???????????". [ma? kala tami? pir?mi e?uttup po?ippuka?] (i.e. "Tamil-Brahmi script scratches found on pots") In this article (which was the T.N. Subramaniyan Endowment lecture for the year 2007), Professor Subbarayalu examines in a very detailed way 270 "script scratches" found on broken pottery and many photographs are provided. Best wishes -- Jean-Luc Chevillard George Hart a ?crit : > [...] It's not clear from the article why the word "diamond" would > appear on the ring stand. George Hart > > From ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG Tue Jun 30 09:56:39 2009 From: ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG (Ganesan) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 09 15:26:39 +0530 Subject: Publication Announcement Message-ID: <161227086899.23782.6426050979630970050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear scholars, I am very happy to announce to the indologists the publication of the following book: Diptagama. Tome III (Chapitres 63 ? 111). Appendice et index. Edition critique Marie-Luce Barazer-Billoret, Bruno Dagens et Vincent Lef?vre avec la collaboration de S. Sambandha Sivacarya et la participation de Christ?le Barois, Collection indologie n? 81.3, IFP, 2009, viii, 701 p. Language : Sanskrit, French.800 Rs (35 ?). ISBN: 978-81-8470-171-5. The D?pt?gama is one of the 28 canonical treatises pertaining to the Southern ?aivite school known as ?aivasiddh?nta. It deems itself a ?treatise on installations?. The critical edition of this hitherto unpublished text relies on manuscripts kept in the French Institute Library. It comprises three volumes where the Sanskrit text is followed by a chapter-wise summary aimed at making the reading easier. The first volume (2004) deals with mantras, installation of the main Linga in the temple, and more importantly with architecture and iconography. The second (2007) is centred on rituals, mainly for the installation of statues. The present volume completes the main corpus with a long presentation of the annual temple festival. It includes several chapters which belong sometimes nominally to the treatise, as well as an Appendix where quotations of the D?pt?gama found in several agamic works are collected. Lastly there is a full Index of the D?pt?gama?s half-verses. With the best wishes, Ganesan Dr.T.Ganesan Charg? de Recherches French Institute 11, St. Louis Street PONDICHERRY-605001 INDIA Tel: +91 - 413 - 233 4168 ext. 123 E mail: ganesan at ifpindia.org Web: www.ifpindia.org