From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jul 1 17:54:28 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 09 18:54:28 +0100 Subject: formal debate technique Message-ID: <161227086902.23782.951496076320502897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tibetan formal debating is quite physical, with the hands being clapped etc. This will be familiar to many readers of this list and is described, for example, in Georges Dreyfus, The Sound of Two Hands Clapping (2003), pp.217 ff. See, e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crvh74HtYJA In the Carakasa?hit?, vi.8.15, there is a description of some reasons why one might want to debate. The text says that in the heat of a debate, a teacher may accidentally blurt out some information about advanced topics that the students have not yet covered. So its advantageous to them. ?c?rya? ... paraspare?a saha jalpan pi??ena vijig??ur ?ha sa?har??t / arguing with each other, the teacher, out of excitement (sa?har?a) says that [i.e., secret], with a pi??a. I'm writing to ask about this pi??a. The 11th century commentator Cakrap??i glosses it as "s?roddh?re?a", i.e., "with a pithy text". So a pi??a is a "gobbet," in 20th century parlance. That works quite well, but I'm not convinced. The 20th century editor, Trikamji, notes in a footnote that there is another reading "pa??ena", that the commentator Ga?g?dhara explains as being "by the light of his learnedness". Hmm. It crossed my mind that this pi??ena - if that's what the MSS really say - might possibly refer to some physical gesture. Does anyone have any suggestions about this? Thanks, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Jul 1 18:38:30 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 09 00:08:30 +0530 Subject: formal debate technique Message-ID: <161227086904.23782.1739429656026361816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr.Wujastyk, Will you kindly mention the names of the sthaana and?adhyaaya? Best DB? --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: formal debate technique To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 1 July, 2009, 11:24 PM Tibetan formal debating is quite physical, with the hands being clapped etc.? This will be familiar to many readers of this list and is described, for example, in Georges Dreyfus, The Sound of Two Hands Clapping (2003), pp.217 ff. See, e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crvh74HtYJA In the Carakasa?hit?, vi.8.15, there is a description of some reasons why one might want to debate.? The text says that in the heat of a debate, a teacher may accidentally blurt out some information about advanced topics that the students have not yet covered.? So its advantageous to them. ?c?rya? ... paraspare?a saha jalpan pi??ena vijig??ur ?ha sa?har??t / arguing with each other, the teacher, out of excitement (sa?har?a) says that [i.e., secret], with a pi??a. I'm writing to ask about this pi??a.? The 11th century commentator Cakrap??i glosses it as "s?roddh?re?a", i.e., "with a pithy text".? So a pi??a is a "gobbet," in 20th century parlance.? That works quite well, but I'm not convinced. The 20th century editor, Trikamji, notes in a footnote that there is another reading "pa??ena", that the commentator Ga?g?dhara explains as being "by the light of his learnedness".? Hmm. It crossed my mind that this pi??ena - if that's what the MSS really say - might possibly refer to some physical gesture.? Does anyone have any suggestions about this? Thanks, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com Yahoo! recommends that you upgrade to the new and safer Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Jul 2 08:12:43 2009 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 09 04:12:43 -0400 Subject: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) Message-ID: <161227086906.23782.16295180352475176591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree that George Hart and I have disagreed on what the Classical Tamil texts say about caste. A discussion on his remark ?that Dalits (leatherworkers, washermen, drummers and the like) are called "izhicanoor" -- "low ones" -- in the poems? can be used to illustrate the bases of our disagreement and hopefully might help resolve the issue. (I apologize for the length of the post.) The word in question is ?izhicinar? (using Hart?s transliteration convention, but ?izicin2ar? in the convention I use). The singular is ?izhicinan? (?izicin2an2? in my convention). Of the three groups explicitly mentioned by Hart, even today Tamil washermen ('vaNNAn2' or 'Vannan') who service non-Dalits have not been considered Scheduled Castes or Dalits in Tamil Nadu except in areas which were part of the former Travancore state where the designation as Scheduled Castes follows the Kerala pattern. (To avail themselves of the affirmative economic opportunities provided by the government, recently Tamil washermen have been calling for designation as Scheduled Castes. _http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/30/stories/2008093051950300.htm_ (http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/30/stories/2008093051950300.htm) ) This is a very important point Hart has missed. (Those washermen who serve the Dalits, puthirai vannan, are included in the Scheduled Castes. See _http://www.tn.gov.in/gorders/adtw/adtw1773-e.htm_ (http://www.tn.gov.in/gorders/adtw/adtw1773-e.htm) for a list of Scheduled Castes in Tamil Nadu.) In my paper (_http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf_ (http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf) ), I have discussed K. K. Pillay?s statement on the status of Tamil washermen. To look at the Tamil washermen's social status information uncontaminated by the influence of any government policies, let us consider a paper entitled ?Caste Society and Units of Production in Early-Modern South India,? in Institutions and Economic Change in South Asia, edited by Burton Stein and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, OUP, 1996, pp. 105-133, in which David Ludden presents interesting data for four taluks from the 1823 census of the Tirunelveli region. The people in the four taluks are classified into the following categories ? Brahmans (Smarta Telugu, Smarta Tamil, etc.), Religious Establishment (Othuvar, etc.), Sudras, (Pandy Vellala, etc.), Muslims, Christians, Inferior Sudras (Elava, Shanar, etc.), and low caste (Palla, Vallava, Pariah, etc.). In this list, washermen are included in the category of Sudras and not inferior Sudras or low castes, as to be expected. As for the second group, the drummers, an inscription (ca. 9th century CE) from Ambasamudram in Tirunelveli District documents a person named pUvan2 paRaiyan2 a member of the Pandiyan king?s staff bought some land from the brahmin sabha and endowed it as kiTaippuRam or endowment for Vedic education. (SII 14, no. 56) Even if we assume pUvan2 paRaiyan2 was not a 'paRaiyan2' by caste, why would a person of such a status have the name 'paRaiyan2' if the name ?paRaiyan2? referred to an untouchable caste from Classical Tamil times? There is a 11th century Chola inscription (SII 2, no.4) showing that paRaiyar (from whose name is derived the English word pariah) were not untouchable at that time with the paRaiccEri (street of paRaiyar) being different from tINTAccEri (street of untouchables). (See paragraph 13 in the Translation section of _http://whatisindia.com/inscriptions/south_indian_inscriptions/volume_2/no_4_south_wall_second_tier.html_ (http://whatisindia.com/inscriptions/south_indian_inscriptions/volume_2/no_4_south_wall_second_tier.h tml) ), Even after paRaiyar fall in status in South Arcot region in the 12th century (SII 7, no. 912), we find 13th and 14th century inscriptions in the Coimbatore area in which we find references such as ?veLLAzan2 paiyyaril caTaiyan2 nEriyAn2 paRaiyan2En2?. paiyyar is the name of a veLLALa lineage here. If caTaiyan2 is assumed to be the donor?s father?s name and nEriyAn2 is assumed to be the donor?s name, what is the role of ?paRaiyan2? in the name of this obviously high caste veLLALa if the name paRaiyan2 had always signified untouchable status? (See kOyamuttUr mAvaTTak kalveTTukaL, tokuti 1, 2006, p. 342). Considering all these, it is diffilcult to justify the case of paRaiyar being untouchable in the Classical Tamil period. Coming to the third group, the case of leather workers needs to be explored in detail since I had not addressed in my paper a philological problem associated with the traditional interpretation of the relevant poem Hart is referring to. The poem is puRanAn2URu 82 which is given below in translation by Hart and Heifetz (1999, p.61). ?In the hand of a low-caste leather worker stitching a cot, with a festival impending and his wife in labor and the sun descending while the rain comes pouring down, as he pulls thread through and again through, the needle flies! When the warrior tried to take the city, the lord who wears a chaplet of laburnum fought with that speed!? Hart and Heifetz provide on p.267, the following note to this poem. ?1: ?Low-caste leather worker? is the translation of izicin2an2, literally, ?low one,? ?despised one.? This shows that in Sangam times, as now, leather workers were one of the lowest castes.? (In the following discussion, I shall refer to Hart alone since, as acknowledged by Heifetz, the scholarly contribution to the translation was Hart? s.) The strange thing about this translation is that in the original Tamil poem, there is no explicit mention of leather or leather worker. All that the poem says is that the man (?izicin2an2?) is using the needle (?Uci?) to push/ force forward (tUNTu) the ?pOz? (?pOz tUNtu Uci?) as he makes the cot. So why does Hart translate ?izicin2an2? as leather worker? Hart seems to have assumed the man to be stitching some leather material using a needle and thread. The 'presence' of leather is traceable only to a commentator who interprets ?pOz? to be a leather strap. Is the commentator justified in such an interpretation? I do not think so. Nowhere else in Classical Tamil is ?pOz? used to refer to leather. The only possible reason for this commentator (who is to be dated several centuries after the poems were composed) to do so could have been the reference to ?izicin2an2? who is by now widely interpreted as an untouchable. Probably, according to the commentator?s line of interpretation, untouchables are known to work with leather and so ?pOz? must have been a leather strap. Hart interprets the situation slightly differently. He does not explicitly call the material used in making the sleeping surface of the cot as leather but introduces a thread to be used with the needle. But he basically accepts the interpretation of the commentator that the base material is leather and hence calls the cot-maker ? leather worker?. Now what could have been the meaning of ?pOz?? The verb pOz- means 'to split, cleave open,' and thus the noun ?pOz? could refer to any material which is split or cloven. In Classical Tamil poems we find ?pOz? being used to refer to things such as palm leaf, and peacock feather. A Classical Tamil poem, kalittokai 117, suggests a most probable interpretation of ?pOz ?in puRanAn2URu 82. In kalittokai 117, a basket ?puTTil? is described as made of ?pOz?. While the commentator of kalittokai 117 assumes ?pOz? to refer to the tender leaf of palmyra (not leather), in my opinion, pared rattan cane will probably fit puRanAn2URu 82 better because it is capable of being made into thin long strips which can be threaded through the eye of a needle (such as the packing needle used for closing/sewing jute bags in India) and can be used to push forward the rattan strip under and over crossing rattan strips. Also pared rattan cane is a well- known material used to make baskets as well as cots even today. Moreover, containers to make offerings to murukan2 are described in CT as 'pirappu' (<'pirampu' meaning 'rattan cane') and thus a very well-known material. If one were to read Hart?s translation of puRanAn2URu 82 without referring to the Tamil original, one would assume that the leather worker is explicitly mentioned in the poem and that he is called a low caste person too so that Hart draws the conclusion that ?in Sangam times, as now, leather workers were one of the lowest castes.? As we have seen that is absolutely not the case. Leather makes its appearance only from the imagination of the commentator which Hart has accepted as correct. As for the meaning of ?izicin2an2 ?, I have discussed in my paper why it could not have meant a ?low one?. This poem is a good example of how a Classical Tamil poem can be misinterpreted by unwarranted acceptance of interpretations by commentators who come several centuries after the the poems. These commentators did not have access to tools such as comparative linguistics, data from epigraphy, etc. Using such tools and data, in many cases, we can reach much better conclusions than those earlier commentators. In conclusion, calling the Tamil washermen Dalits results from a flawed understanding of the Tamil society of today as well as that of the Classical Tamil period. If one has to account for the inscriptional evidence regarding paRaiyar, one cannot say paRaiyar were untouchables in ancient times . The classification of leather workers as untouchables in Classical Tamil period is most probably based on non-existent data. Thus the case of untouchability being present in Classical Tamil times is very untenable indeed Regards, Palaniappan. **************Dell Summer Savings: Cool Deals on Popular Laptops ? Shop Now! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222696924x1201468348/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D1) From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Thu Jul 2 19:55:35 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 09 12:55:35 -0700 Subject: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086911.23782.7329497956698732359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Palaniappan has ingenious arguments, but for me they don't work. He says pooz does not mean leather strap, but then how about Akam 281.5, "Winding a long pooz on his bow." Clearly this does not mean rattan or palmyra. And it's quite difficult to imagine someone using a needle on either rattan or palmyra. In any event, there is much more to indicate that certain castes were considered "low" because of their connection with things dead and the spirit world in the Sangam works. If anyone is interested, I'll send a pdf of a paper I wrote (and to which Palaniappan responded -- he will, I'm sure, send you a link to his paper also). As far as washermen go, the issue is not how they were classified at period x or y, but how they were regarded in Sangam texts. It is obvious that the position of castes changes over time and in different places -- the Nadars are an example. My own view is that the caste system grew from the bottom up, not from the top down. It is based on the concept that people who have contact with and manipulate the spirit world are dangerous and should be kept out of the ordered world of the upper castes. G. Hart On Jul 2, 2009, at 1:12 AM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > I agree that George Hart and I have disagreed on what the Classical > Tamil > texts say about caste. A discussion on his remark ?that Dalits > (leatherworkers, washermen, drummers and the like) are called > "izhicanoor" -- "low > ones" -- in the poems? can be used to illustrate the bases of our > disagreement > and hopefully might help resolve the issue. (I apologize for the > length of > the post.) > > The word in question is ?izhicinar? (using Hart?s transliteration > convention, but ?izicin2ar? in the convention I use). The singular > is ?izhicinan? > (?izicin2an2? in my convention). > > > Of the three groups explicitly mentioned by Hart, even today Tamil > washermen ('vaNNAn2' or 'Vannan') who service non-Dalits have not > been considered > Scheduled Castes or Dalits in Tamil Nadu except in areas which were > part > of the former Travancore state where the designation as Scheduled > Castes > follows the Kerala pattern. (To avail themselves of the affirmative > economic > opportunities provided by the government, recently Tamil washermen > have been > calling for designation as Scheduled Castes. > _http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/30/stories/2008093051950300.htm_ > (http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/30/stories/2008093051950300.htm) ) > This is a very important point Hart has missed. > (Those washermen who serve the Dalits, puthirai vannan, are > included in the > Scheduled Castes. See _http://www.tn.gov.in/gorders/adtw/adtw1773-e.htm_ > (http://www.tn.gov.in/gorders/adtw/adtw1773-e.htm) for a list of > Scheduled > Castes in Tamil Nadu.) In my paper > (_http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf_ > (http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf > ) ), I have discussed K. K. Pillay?s statement > on the status of Tamil washermen. To look at the Tamil washermen's > social > status information uncontaminated by the influence of any government > policies, let us consider a paper entitled ?Caste Society and Units > of Production > in Early-Modern South India,? in Institutions and Economic Change > in South > Asia, edited by Burton Stein and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, OUP, 1996, pp. > 105-133, in which David Ludden presents interesting data for four > taluks from the > 1823 census of the Tirunelveli region. The people in the four > taluks are > classified into the following categories ? Brahmans (Smarta Telugu, > Smarta > Tamil, etc.), Religious Establishment (Othuvar, etc.), Sudras, (Pandy > Vellala, etc.), Muslims, Christians, Inferior Sudras (Elava, > Shanar, etc.), and > low caste (Palla, Vallava, Pariah, etc.). In this list, washermen are > included in the category of Sudras and not inferior Sudras or low > castes, as to be > expected. > As for the second group, the drummers, an inscription (ca. 9th > century > CE) from Ambasamudram in Tirunelveli District documents a person > named pUvan2 > paRaiyan2 a member of the Pandiyan king?s staff bought some land > from the > brahmin sabha and endowed it as kiTaippuRam or endowment for Vedic > education. (SII 14, no. 56) Even if we assume pUvan2 paRaiyan2 was > not a 'paRaiyan2' > by caste, why would a person of such a status have the name > 'paRaiyan2' if > the name ?paRaiyan2? referred to an untouchable caste from Classical > Tamil times? There is a 11th century Chola inscription (SII 2, no. > 4) showing > that paRaiyar (from whose name is derived the English word pariah) > were not > untouchable at that time with the paRaiccEri (street of paRaiyar) > being > different from tINTAccEri (street of untouchables). (See paragraph > 13 in the > Translation section of > _http://whatisindia.com/inscriptions/south_indian_inscriptions/volume_2/no_4_south_wall_second_tier.html_ > (http://whatisindia.com/inscriptions/south_indian_inscriptions/volume_2/no_4_south_wall_second_tier.h > tml) ), Even after paRaiyar fall in status in South Arcot region > in the > 12th century (SII 7, no. 912), we find 13th and 14th century > inscriptions > in the Coimbatore area in which we find references such as ?veLLAzan2 > paiyyaril caTaiyan2 nEriyAn2 paRaiyan2En2?. paiyyar is the name of > a veLLALa > lineage here. If caTaiyan2 is assumed to be the donor?s father?s > name and > nEriyAn2 is assumed to be the donor?s name, what is the role of > ?paRaiyan2? in > the name of this obviously high caste veLLALa if the name paRaiyan2 > had > always signified untouchable status? (See kOyamuttUr mAvaTTak > kalveTTukaL, > tokuti 1, 2006, p. 342). Considering all these, it is diffilcult to > justify > the case of paRaiyar being untouchable in the Classical Tamil period. > Coming to the third group, the case of leather workers needs to be > explored in detail since I had not addressed in my paper a > philological problem > associated with the traditional interpretation of the relevant poem > Hart is > referring to. The poem is puRanAn2URu 82 which is given below in > translation > by Hart and Heifetz (1999, p.61). > ?In the hand of a low-caste leather worker stitching a cot, > with a festival impending and his wife in labor and the sun > descending while the rain comes pouring down, as he > pulls thread through and again through, the needle flies! > When the warrior tried to take the city, > the lord who wears a chaplet of laburnum fought with that speed!? > Hart and Heifetz provide on p.267, the following note to this poem. > ?1: ?Low-caste leather worker? is the translation of izicin2an2, > literally, ?low one,? ?despised one.? This shows that in Sangam > times, as now, > leather workers were one of the lowest castes.? > (In the following discussion, I shall refer to Hart alone since, as > acknowledged by Heifetz, the scholarly contribution to the > translation was Hart? > s.) > The strange thing about this translation is that in the original > Tamil > poem, there is no explicit mention of leather or leather worker. > All that the > poem says is that the man (?izicin2an2?) is using the needle > (?Uci?) to > push/ force forward (tUNTu) the ?pOz? (?pOz tUNtu Uci?) as he makes > the > cot. So why does Hart translate ?izicin2an2? as leather worker? > Hart seems > to have assumed the man to be stitching some leather material using > a needle > and thread. The 'presence' of leather is traceable only to a > commentator > who interprets ?pOz? to be a leather strap. Is the commentator > justified in > such an interpretation? I do not think so. Nowhere else in > Classical Tamil > is ?pOz? used to refer to leather. The only possible reason for this > commentator (who is to be dated several centuries after the poems were > composed) to do so could have been the reference to ?izicin2an2? > who is by now > widely interpreted as an untouchable. Probably, according to the > commentator?s > line of interpretation, untouchables are known to work with leather > and so > ?pOz? must have been a leather strap. Hart interprets the situation > slightly differently. He does not explicitly call the material used > in making > the sleeping surface of the cot as leather but introduces a thread > to be used > with the needle. But he basically accepts the interpretation of the > commentator that the base material is leather and hence calls the > cot-maker ? > leather worker?. > Now what could have been the meaning of ?pOz?? The verb pOz- means > 'to > split, cleave open,' and thus the noun ?pOz? could refer to any > material > which is split or cloven. In Classical Tamil poems we find ?pOz? > being used > to refer to things such as palm leaf, and peacock feather. A > Classical Tamil > poem, kalittokai 117, suggests a most probable interpretation of > ?pOz ?in > puRanAn2URu 82. In kalittokai 117, a basket ?puTTil? is described > as made > of ?pOz?. While the commentator of kalittokai 117 assumes ?pOz? to > refer > to the tender leaf of palmyra (not leather), in my opinion, pared > rattan > cane will probably fit puRanAn2URu 82 better because it is capable > of being > made into thin long strips which can be threaded through the eye of a > needle (such as the packing needle used for closing/sewing jute > bags in India) > and can be used to push forward the rattan strip under and over > crossing > rattan strips. Also pared rattan cane is a well- known material > used to make > baskets as well as cots even today. Moreover, containers to make > offerings > to murukan2 are described in CT as 'pirappu' (<'pirampu' meaning > 'rattan > cane') and thus a very well-known material. > If one were to read Hart?s translation of puRanAn2URu 82 without > referring > to the Tamil original, one would assume that the leather worker is > explicitly mentioned in the poem and that he is called a low caste > person too so > that Hart draws the conclusion that ?in Sangam times, as now, leather > workers were one of the lowest castes.? As we have seen that is > absolutely not > the case. Leather makes its appearance only from the imagination of > the > commentator which Hart has accepted as correct. As for the meaning > of ?izicin2an2 > ?, I have discussed in my paper why it could not have meant a ?low > one?. > This poem is a good example of how a Classical Tamil poem can be > misinterpreted by unwarranted acceptance of interpretations by > commentators who > come several centuries after the the poems. These commentators did > not have > access to tools such as comparative linguistics, data from > epigraphy, etc. > Using such tools and data, in many cases, we can reach much better > conclusions than those earlier commentators. > In conclusion, calling the Tamil washermen Dalits results from a > flawed > understanding of the Tamil society of today as well as that of the > Classical > Tamil period. If one has to account for the inscriptional evidence > regarding paRaiyar, one cannot say paRaiyar were untouchables in > ancient times . > The classification of leather workers as untouchables in Classical > Tamil > period is most probably based on non-existent data. Thus the case of > untouchability being present in Classical Tamil times is very > untenable indeed > Regards, > Palaniappan. > > > > > **************Dell Summer Savings: Cool Deals on Popular Laptops ? > Shop > Now! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222696924x1201468348/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D1 > ) From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Thu Jul 2 10:57:39 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (Veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 09 16:27:39 +0530 Subject: Fwd: IIIT-H Advertisement for Visiting Sanskrit Faculty and PhD positions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086909.23782.3560550502747416592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All Colleagues, this anouncement is forwarded at the request of authourities of IIIT-H. *International Institute of Information Technology, **Hyderabad*** *Language Technologies Research Centre* * * *Faculty Research Award Scheme for Sanskrit Scholars in * *Computational Approach to Indian Analytic Traditions* *Introduction:* Language Technologies Research Centre at IIIT Hyderabad conducts research on the interface of Indian analytic traditions and computer & information technology. Faculty Research Award Scheme of the Center is directed at research on the interface of Indian analytic traditions and computational linguistics, computational ontologies and web technologies. Theoretical knowledge in ??strika traditions of Dar?ana-s and various Prayojana ??stra-s exists in Sanskrit institutions, however, the interface with modern knowledge is weak. The Center aims to bridge this divide by encouraging syncretic research. Goals of the center are ? - To prepare researchers for the next generation of language technology development. - Capacity building of young faculty of Sanskrit institutions in the country in computational approaches to Indian Analytic traditions. - Conducting research in computational linguistics, ontological engineering and web technologies on the basis of traditional theories. - Developing courses that enable cross-fertilization of computer science and ??strika traditions. *Faculty Research Award Scheme* is directed at regular faculty of Sanskrit research and education institutions in the country. Under the scheme, Sanskrit faculty from these institutes will visit the Centre at IIIT-H or departments preferably for the *duration of one to two years*. The scheme is patterned after UGC Research Award scheme. *The salary of awardees at parent institution will be protected*. *Center invites applications related to Expertise in Following Areas:* * * 1. ?abdabodha: Vy?karan?a, Ny?ya, M?m?m?s? related to semantics of language. 2. Prameya: Ny?ya-Vai?es?ika, M?m?m?s?, Jaina, Bauddha and other Dar?ana-s related to ontology. 3. N?t?ya: Itih?sa, Pur?n?a, S?hitya, K?vya, Alam?k?ra, N?t?ya related to discourse analysis *Eligibility:* The candidate should be employed as regular faculty in Sanskrit research and education institutions such as Sanskrit Universities, University departments of Sanskrit/Prakrit/Pali. * * *Application:* Application should contain ? (1) curriculum vitae, (2) contact details, (3) statement of research interest, (4) copies of key publications, and (5) list of mentors with contact details. Application should be submitted to undersigned by 25th June 2009. * * *Selection Procedure: * * * Short-listed candidates will be called for interview at IIIT-H and selection will be based on interview. *Contact Address: * Head, Language Technologies Research Centre International Institute of Information Technology Gachibowli, Hyderabad ? 500 032 Telephones: +91-40-23001412 E mail: rambabu at iiit.ac.in -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Fri Jul 3 01:22:33 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 09 21:22:33 -0400 Subject: Aditya Behl on the Clay Sanskrit Library In-Reply-To: <0A5BB79A-D5D6-47B4-9112-B61D80C24358@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086914.23782.6973679832559454839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to call the attention of list members to a recent review article by Aditya Behl which discusses this recent enterprise which aims to present much of classical Sanskrit literature in a format similar to Harvard's Loeb classical library of Greek and Latin classics. I refer to the Times Literary Supplement issue June 19 2009, no. 5542. This is the print version, a very prominent front page review. I do not know whether it is available online. However, I can say that Behl has done a nice job of introducing the Clay Sanskrit Library to a general audience. Unfortunately, this article also gives the disturbing news that this series of classical Sanskrit texts presented attractively and accessibly in a bilingual format, with the Sanskrit text [in simplified sandhi-analyzed form] facing an English translation on opposite page, just as in the Harvard Loeb series, is about to be discontinued because of poor sales. We should all encourage our students to buy Clay editions of these Sanskrit texts. And we all should buy them as well, as much as we can. This is a very valuable series which we should all support, in spite of its very minor flaws. George Thompson From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Fri Jul 3 13:08:34 2009 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 09 08:08:34 -0500 Subject: Aditya Behl on the Clay Sanskrit Library In-Reply-To: <4A4D5D59.8020902@comcast.net> Message-ID: <161227086919.23782.4231329092643253581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, the CLS ceased to operate as of the end of June -- and it has little to do with poor sales. The Clay's pulled the rug under the whole enterprise. It has been frustrating to all connected with the project, and we will hear soon from Shelly Pollock, who was the last general editor. Patrick >I would like to call the attention of list members to a recent >review article by Aditya Behl which discusses this recent enterprise >which aims to present much of classical Sanskrit literature in a >format similar to Harvard's Loeb classical library of Greek and >Latin classics. I refer to the Times Literary Supplement issue June >19 2009, no. 5542. This is the print version, a very prominent >front page review. I do not know whether it is available online. > >However, I can say that Behl has done a nice job of introducing the >Clay Sanskrit Library to a general audience. Unfortunately, this >article also gives the disturbing news that this series of classical >Sanskrit texts presented attractively and accessibly in a bilingual >format, with the Sanskrit text [in simplified sandhi-analyzed form] >facing an English translation on opposite page, just as in the >Harvard Loeb series, is about to be discontinued because of poor >sales. >We should all encourage our students to buy Clay editions of these >Sanskrit texts. And we all should buy them as well, as much as we >can. This is a very valuable series which we should all support, in >spite of its very minor flaws. >George Thompson From tcoleman at COLORADOCOLLEGE.EDU Fri Jul 3 14:45:51 2009 From: tcoleman at COLORADOCOLLEGE.EDU (Tracy Coleman) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 09 08:45:51 -0600 Subject: Aditya Behl on the Clay Sanskrit Library Message-ID: <161227086925.23782.7385309818876605469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> All-- How terribly unfortunate for Indologists and general readers alike! These volumes are so useful. I had planned to order one as a course-text for a class I'm teaching in the fall, so I hope it's still available. Will the press continue to print and sell the final 56 volumes indefinitely? Tracy Coleman Colorado College -----Original Message----- From: Indology on behalf of isabelle onians Sent: Fri 7/3/2009 5:11 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Aditya Behl on the Clay Sanskrit Library Dear Colleagues, The TLS review of the CSL is available on the press page of our CSL website: http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/press.php. Aditya Behl's piece ( http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/press/CSL_TLSReview_200906.php) does not actually say that the series is being discontinued because of poor sales, although one can see how that inference might have been drawn from his adjacent mention of the quarrel between Lakshmi and Sarasvati. The series has indeed now been closed down, as of June 30 just gone, although we are still sending a last clutch of new titles to press to appear on bookshelves in September ( http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volumes.php?show=12). The final list will comprise 56 volumes: http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volumes_current.php. Yours truly, Isabelle (Onians) From isabo at CLAYSANSKRITLIBRARY.ORG Fri Jul 3 11:11:26 2009 From: isabo at CLAYSANSKRITLIBRARY.ORG (isabelle onians) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 09 12:11:26 +0100 Subject: Aditya Behl on the Clay Sanskrit Library In-Reply-To: <4A4D5D59.8020902@comcast.net> Message-ID: <161227086916.23782.1024896472720646278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, The TLS review of the CSL is available on the press page of our CSL website: http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/press.php. Aditya Behl's piece ( http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/press/CSL_TLSReview_200906.php) does not actually say that the series is being discontinued because of poor sales, although one can see how that inference might have been drawn from his adjacent mention of the quarrel between Lakshmi and Sarasvati. The series has indeed now been closed down, as of June 30 just gone, although we are still sending a last clutch of new titles to press to appear on bookshelves in September ( http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volumes.php?show=12). The final list will comprise 56 volumes: http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volumes_current.php. Yours truly, Isabelle (Onians) On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 2:22 AM, George Thompson wrote: > I would like to call the attention of list members to a recent review > article by Aditya Behl which discusses this recent enterprise which aims to > present much of classical Sanskrit literature in a format similar to > Harvard's Loeb classical library of Greek and Latin classics. I refer to > the Times Literary Supplement issue June 19 2009, no. 5542. This is the > print version, a very prominent front page review. I do not know whether it > is available online. > > However, I can say that Behl has done a nice job of introducing the Clay > Sanskrit Library to a general audience. Unfortunately, this article also > gives the disturbing news that this series of classical Sanskrit texts > presented attractively and accessibly in a bilingual format, with the > Sanskrit text [in simplified sandhi-analyzed form] facing an English > translation on opposite page, just as in the Harvard Loeb series, is about > to be discontinued because of poor sales. > We should all encourage our students to buy Clay editions of these Sanskrit > texts. And we all should buy them as well, as much as we can. This is a > very valuable series which we should all support, in spite of its very minor > flaws. > George Thompson > From tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU Fri Jul 3 16:59:06 2009 From: tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU (Mahadevan, Thennilapuram) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 09 12:59:06 -0400 Subject: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) In-Reply-To: <0A5BB79A-D5D6-47B4-9112-B61D80C24358@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086928.23782.886645706471207776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Hart: "[T]he caste system grew from the bottom up" This would pose a problem with the caste system of North India, as we know it, but Hart's point that the system had something to do with "dangerous" worlds would seem to be beyond question, and that, consequently, the group who were engaged in it, whether it is the ritual world of Vedism or the spirit world of the ananku in the Tamil world, was outside the "ordered world". As is well known, the ritually active Brahman is a sort of an "untouchable" among other Brahmans for the same reasons as certain castes were considered "low" in the Sangam period. Both transact with "dangerous" worlds. Yet, as we know, the two groups are "untouchable" in radically different ways. Thus the North Indian caste system seems to grow from top down. T.P.Mahadevan From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of George Hart [glhart at BERKELEY.EDU] Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:55 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) Palaniappan has ingenious arguments, but for me they don't work. He says pooz does not mean leather strap, but then how about Akam 281.5, "Winding a long pooz on his bow." Clearly this does not mean rattan or palmyra. And it's quite difficult to imagine someone using a needle on either rattan or palmyra. In any event, there is much more to indicate that certain castes were considered "low" because of their connection with things dead and the spirit world in the Sangam works. If anyone is interested, I'll send a pdf of a paper I wrote (and to which Palaniappan responded -- he will, I'm sure, send you a link to his paper also). As far as washermen go, the issue is not how they were classified at period x or y, but how they were regarded in Sangam texts. It is obvious that the position of castes changes over time and in different places -- the Nadars are an example. My own view is that the caste system grew from the bottom up, not from the top down. It is based on the concept that people who have contact with and manipulate the spirit world are dangerous and should be kept out of the ordered world of the upper castes. G. Hart On Jul 2, 2009, at 1:12 AM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > I agree that George Hart and I have disagreed on what the Classical > Tamil > texts say about caste. A discussion on his remark ?that Dalits > (leatherworkers, washermen, drummers and the like) are called > "izhicanoor" -- "low > ones" -- in the poems? can be used to illustrate the bases of our > disagreement > and hopefully might help resolve the issue. (I apologize for the > length of > the post.) > > The word in question is ?izhicinar? (using Hart?s transliteration > convention, but ?izicin2ar? in the convention I use). The singular > is ?izhicinan? > (?izicin2an2? in my convention). > > > Of the three groups explicitly mentioned by Hart, even today Tamil > washermen ('vaNNAn2' or 'Vannan') who service non-Dalits have not > been considered > Scheduled Castes or Dalits in Tamil Nadu except in areas which were > part > of the former Travancore state where the designation as Scheduled > Castes > follows the Kerala pattern. (To avail themselves of the affirmative > economic > opportunities provided by the government, recently Tamil washermen > have been > calling for designation as Scheduled Castes. > _http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/30/stories/2008093051950300.htm_ > (http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/30/stories/2008093051950300.htm) ) > This is a very important point Hart has missed. > (Those washermen who serve the Dalits, puthirai vannan, are > included in the > Scheduled Castes. See _http://www.tn.gov.in/gorders/adtw/adtw1773-e.htm_ > (http://www.tn.gov.in/gorders/adtw/adtw1773-e.htm) for a list of > Scheduled > Castes in Tamil Nadu.) In my paper > (_http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf_ > (http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf > ) ), I have discussed K. K. Pillay?s statement > on the status of Tamil washermen. To look at the Tamil washermen's > social > status information uncontaminated by the influence of any government > policies, let us consider a paper entitled ?Caste Society and Units > of Production > in Early-Modern South India,? in Institutions and Economic Change > in South > Asia, edited by Burton Stein and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, OUP, 1996, pp. > 105-133, in which David Ludden presents interesting data for four > taluks from the > 1823 census of the Tirunelveli region. The people in the four > taluks are > classified into the following categories ? Brahmans (Smarta Telugu, > Smarta > Tamil, etc.), Religious Establishment (Othuvar, etc.), Sudras, (Pandy > Vellala, etc.), Muslims, Christians, Inferior Sudras (Elava, > Shanar, etc.), and > low caste (Palla, Vallava, Pariah, etc.). In this list, washermen are > included in the category of Sudras and not inferior Sudras or low > castes, as to be > expected. > As for the second group, the drummers, an inscription (ca. 9th > century > CE) from Ambasamudram in Tirunelveli District documents a person > named pUvan2 > paRaiyan2 a member of the Pandiyan king?s staff bought some land > from the > brahmin sabha and endowed it as kiTaippuRam or endowment for Vedic > education. (SII 14, no. 56) Even if we assume pUvan2 paRaiyan2 was > not a 'paRaiyan2' > by caste, why would a person of such a status have the name > 'paRaiyan2' if > the name ?paRaiyan2? referred to an untouchable caste from Classical > Tamil times? There is a 11th century Chola inscription (SII 2, no. > 4) showing > that paRaiyar (from whose name is derived the English word pariah) > were not > untouchable at that time with the paRaiccEri (street of paRaiyar) > being > different from tINTAccEri (street of untouchables). (See paragraph > 13 in the > Translation section of > _http://whatisindia.com/inscriptions/south_indian_inscriptions/volume_2/no_4_south_wall_second_tier.html_ > (http://whatisindia.com/inscriptions/south_indian_inscriptions/volume_2/no_4_south_wall_second_tier.h > tml) ), Even after paRaiyar fall in status in South Arcot region > in the > 12th century (SII 7, no. 912), we find 13th and 14th century > inscriptions > in the Coimbatore area in which we find references such as ?veLLAzan2 > paiyyaril caTaiyan2 nEriyAn2 paRaiyan2En2?. paiyyar is the name of > a veLLALa > lineage here. If caTaiyan2 is assumed to be the donor?s father?s > name and > nEriyAn2 is assumed to be the donor?s name, what is the role of > ?paRaiyan2? in > the name of this obviously high caste veLLALa if the name paRaiyan2 > had > always signified untouchable status? (See kOyamuttUr mAvaTTak > kalveTTukaL, > tokuti 1, 2006, p. 342). Considering all these, it is diffilcult to > justify > the case of paRaiyar being untouchable in the Classical Tamil period. > Coming to the third group, the case of leather workers needs to be > explored in detail since I had not addressed in my paper a > philological problem > associated with the traditional interpretation of the relevant poem > Hart is > referring to. The poem is puRanAn2URu 82 which is given below in > translation > by Hart and Heifetz (1999, p.61). > ?In the hand of a low-caste leather worker stitching a cot, > with a festival impending and his wife in labor and the sun > descending while the rain comes pouring down, as he > pulls thread through and again through, the needle flies! > When the warrior tried to take the city, > the lord who wears a chaplet of laburnum fought with that speed!? > Hart and Heifetz provide on p.267, the following note to this poem. > ?1: ?Low-caste leather worker? is the translation of izicin2an2, > literally, ?low one,? ?despised one.? This shows that in Sangam > times, as now, > leather workers were one of the lowest castes.? > (In the following discussion, I shall refer to Hart alone since, as > acknowledged by Heifetz, the scholarly contribution to the > translation was Hart? > s.) > The strange thing about this translation is that in the original > Tamil > poem, there is no explicit mention of leather or leather worker. > All that the > poem says is that the man (?izicin2an2?) is using the needle > (?Uci?) to > push/ force forward (tUNTu) the ?pOz? (?pOz tUNtu Uci?) as he makes > the > cot. So why does Hart translate ?izicin2an2? as leather worker? > Hart seems > to have assumed the man to be stitching some leather material using > a needle > and thread. The 'presence' of leather is traceable only to a > commentator > who interprets ?pOz? to be a leather strap. Is the commentator > justified in > such an interpretation? I do not think so. Nowhere else in > Classical Tamil > is ?pOz? used to refer to leather. The only possible reason for this > commentator (who is to be dated several centuries after the poems were > composed) to do so could have been the reference to ?izicin2an2? > who is by now > widely interpreted as an untouchable. Probably, according to the > commentator?s > line of interpretation, untouchables are known to work with leather > and so > ?pOz? must have been a leather strap. Hart interprets the situation > slightly differently. He does not explicitly call the material used > in making > the sleeping surface of the cot as leather but introduces a thread > to be used > with the needle. But he basically accepts the interpretation of the > commentator that the base material is leather and hence calls the > cot-maker ? > leather worker?. > Now what could have been the meaning of ?pOz?? The verb pOz- means > 'to > split, cleave open,' and thus the noun ?pOz? could refer to any > material > which is split or cloven. In Classical Tamil poems we find ?pOz? > being used > to refer to things such as palm leaf, and peacock feather. A > Classical Tamil > poem, kalittokai 117, suggests a most probable interpretation of > ?pOz ?in > puRanAn2URu 82. In kalittokai 117, a basket ?puTTil? is described > as made > of ?pOz?. While the commentator of kalittokai 117 assumes ?pOz? to > refer > to the tender leaf of palmyra (not leather), in my opinion, pared > rattan > cane will probably fit puRanAn2URu 82 better because it is capable > of being > made into thin long strips which can be threaded through the eye of a > needle (such as the packing needle used for closing/sewing jute > bags in India) > and can be used to push forward the rattan strip under and over > crossing > rattan strips. Also pared rattan cane is a well- known material > used to make > baskets as well as cots even today. Moreover, containers to make > offerings > to murukan2 are described in CT as 'pirappu' (<'pirampu' meaning > 'rattan > cane') and thus a very well-known material. > If one were to read Hart?s translation of puRanAn2URu 82 without > referring > to the Tamil original, one would assume that the leather worker is > explicitly mentioned in the poem and that he is called a low caste > person too so > that Hart draws the conclusion that ?in Sangam times, as now, leather > workers were one of the lowest castes.? As we have seen that is > absolutely not > the case. Leather makes its appearance only from the imagination of > the > commentator which Hart has accepted as correct. As for the meaning > of ?izicin2an2 > ?, I have discussed in my paper why it could not have meant a ?low > one?. > This poem is a good example of how a Classical Tamil poem can be > misinterpreted by unwarranted acceptance of interpretations by > commentators who > come several centuries after the the poems. These commentators did > not have > access to tools such as comparative linguistics, data from > epigraphy, etc. > Using such tools and data, in many cases, we can reach much better > conclusions than those earlier commentators. > In conclusion, calling the Tamil washermen Dalits results from a > flawed > understanding of the Tamil society of today as well as that of the > Classical > Tamil period. If one has to account for the inscriptional evidence > regarding paRaiyar, one cannot say paRaiyar were untouchables in > ancient times . > The classification of leather workers as untouchables in Classical > Tamil > period is most probably based on non-existent data. Thus the case of > untouchability being present in Classical Tamil times is very > untenable indeed > Regards, > Palaniappan. > > > > > **************Dell Summer Savings: Cool Deals on Popular Laptops ? > Shop > Now! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222696924x1201468348/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D1 > ) From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Fri Jul 3 14:10:40 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 09 15:10:40 +0100 Subject: Digitized manuscript catalogues of German libraries Message-ID: <161227086922.23782.13404395703629725690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This website http://www.manuscripta-mediaevalia.de/hs/kataloge-online.htm provides digitized copies of many early catalogues of Skt MSS in German libraries. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jul 4 06:29:26 2009 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 09 02:29:26 -0400 Subject: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) Message-ID: <161227086934.23782.3005249710169182066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In an earlier post Hart had included Tamil washermen among those called ? izicin2ar? in the Classical Tamil texts. I forgot to mention in my last post that contrary to what Hart has said there is not a single instance where washermen are called ?izicin2ar? in those texts. Instead, a washerwoman is called pulaitti in these texts. The difference is significant since the meaning of ?izicin2ar? had something to do with drumming and nothing to do with being low or despicable. Coming to Hart?s question regarding Akam 281.5, pOz refers to a split piece of peacock feather. I see no leather there. That 'pOz' is used in connection with peacock feather (?pIlip pOz?) is clear from paripATal 21.7. It is also possible to interpret ?pOz? as referring to the split wood one might think the bow is made of. In either case it is the peacock feather material that is wound around the bow. Another important philological point about Puram 82. Hart has failed to consider the semantics of the verb ?niNakkum? (< DEDR 3668 ?niNa-? 'to tie up, fasten, braid') used in connection with making the cot. The sleeping surface of the cot (?kaTTil?) is made by fastening or braiding or interlacing long strips of material. There is no need for a separate thread and needle for stitching the material as in tailoring. The post-Classical Tamil work peruGkatai 1.34.144 calls the base surface of a royal throne (also called ? kaTTil?) made of interlaced string as 'niNavai'. In fact, the modern editor UVS refers to puRam 82 in his note for the line. UVS also points to peruGkatai 1.42.28 which mentions "mUGkil paimpOz niNavai" where the interlacing (for what object we do not know) is done using green bamboo 'pOz'. The function of 'Uci' must have been to push forward the braiding/interlacing material and not to stitch using needle and thread. It is possible the ?Uci? might not have had a hole and might have had some means like a hook to grab the lacing material. As for the relevance of considering the status of castes in the post-Classical Tamil period, Hart frequently points to the contemporary castes to add support to his statements. For example, consider his note for Puram 82 which I cited earlier ("This shows that in Sangam times, ***as now***, leather workers were one of the lower castes." Emphasis mine.). Also in the same work (p.xxi), in the section ?Society: The Low Castes? he says, "The three most prominent of these castes were the drummers, called kiNaiyan2s (***probably modern paRaiyan2s***)..." (Emphasis mine) The problem is that he ignores historical and contemporary data contradicting his theory. For instance, how do the Tamil washermen considered to be untouchable by Hart in Classical Tamil period become non-untouchable in Tamil Nadu throughout history? There is no epigraphic or anthropological evidence of such washermen being considered untouchable. There have been no recorded movements for upward mobility of washermen like that of Nadars in the 20th century. As for paRaiyar, Hart is very willing to cite their status in modern times but ignores their higher status before the 12th century. One does not need any ingenuity for an explanation of the classical Tamil society. One would hope that any explanation considers that the data are primary and theory should be made to fit the data, all the data and not ignore 'inconvenient' data or grammatical facts. There should also be internal consistency in statements. Hart's positions that immigrant brahmins took up occupations held in high esteem by the Tamil society, Tamil society considered funerary priests as untouchables, and Vedic brahmins became funerary priests who cut dead bodies and bury them do not make sense. I have mostly presented information which was not included in my paper. For a more detailed analysis of the question of untouchability in Classical Tamil period, please see my paper in which I have cited a link to Hart's paper in PDF too :-) Regards, Palaniappan **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323013x1201367230/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd= JulystepsfooterNO62) From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Jul 4 13:50:08 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 09 06:50:08 -0700 Subject: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086937.23782.989936208847697342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I can understand -- and share -- Palaniappan's desire to see the old Tamil society of the Sangam works as casteless and egalitarian, just as I wish modern society were casteless. This belief about the old "golden age" of Sangam times has had enormous political consequences for modern India, and it is proved an extremely powerful idea. And it is true that in the Sangam works, we encounter views and poetry that seem almost modern and have elements of egalitarianism. This, however, does not make old Tamil society an anomaly in a premodern world in which virtually every culture had a deep and abiding belief in various sorts of magic and in a world of spirits. I can only say that, in my view, whatever "pooz" may mean (and surely the needle was not used just to push around pieces of bamboo, and I haven't seen any instance of peacock feathers being wrapped around bows), my reading of the texts shows clearly the existence of a varied group at the bottom of society who were technicians of the sacred and who interacted with the spirit world. These people are described as "of low birth" and words from the root pulai are applied to them (e.g. pulaitti). I can't accept Palaniappan's etymology of this word as related to "poli," shine -- for the root is used in many other Dravidian languages to mean a stain or to apply to very low-caste people. Its meanings in the Lexicon are "1 baseness 2 uncleanness 3 defilement 4 vice, evil way 5 lie 6 adultery 7 animal food 8 outcaste 9 stench." In any event, the papers of myself and Palaniappan are available and anyone interested in this subject can read them and come to their own conclusions. On another note, it's interesting to see "uuci" < suuci used for "needle" -- it shows how technology from the north spread among every group in old Tamilnadu. And finally, T.P. Mahadevan suggests that somehow in North India, the caste system went from the top down. I would disagree, as I don't think the whole system was somehow the result of a political imposition by the top 3 "varnas." No one from outside India has ever seen the 4 (or 5) varnas -- post-Vedic North India has always, in real terms, been characterized by many endogamous jaatis, though no doubt they have often identified with one or other varna. If one wants to get an idea of the pre-Aryan system, it is my impression that a great deal of insight can be gained by looking at the far north (Nepal) and far south. It is, of course, true that in the north, the Brahmanical system had great power and influence (as it did later in the South), but I think it is still possible in the North to see the basic outlines of an older system in which Dalits were given low status because they dealt with spirits. George Hart On Jul 3, 2009, at 11:29 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > In an earlier post Hart had included Tamil washermen among those > called ? > izicin2ar? in the Classical Tamil texts. I forgot to mention in my > last > post that contrary to what Hart has said there is not a single > instance where > washermen are called ?izicin2ar? in those texts. Instead, a > washerwoman is > called pulaitti in these texts. The difference is significant since > the > meaning of ?izicin2ar? had something to do with drumming and > nothing to do > with being low or despicable. > > Coming to Hart?s question regarding Akam 281.5, pOz refers to a split > piece of peacock feather. I see no leather there. That 'pOz' is > used in > connection with peacock feather (?pIlip pOz?) is clear from > paripATal 21.7. It is > also possible to interpret ?pOz? as referring to the split wood one > might > think the bow is made of. In either case it is the peacock feather > material that is wound around the bow. > Another important philological point about Puram 82. Hart has > failed to > consider the semantics of the verb ?niNakkum? (< DEDR 3668 ?niNa-? > 'to tie > up, fasten, braid') used in connection with making the cot. The > sleeping > surface of the cot (?kaTTil?) is made by fastening or braiding or > interlacing long strips of material. There is no need for a > separate thread and > needle for stitching the material as in tailoring. The post- > Classical Tamil work > peruGkatai 1.34.144 calls the base surface of a royal throne (also > called ? > kaTTil?) made of interlaced string as 'niNavai'. In fact, the modern > editor UVS refers to puRam 82 in his note for the line. UVS also > points to > peruGkatai 1.42.28 which mentions "mUGkil paimpOz niNavai" where > the interlacing > (for what object we do not know) is done using green bamboo 'pOz'. > The > function of 'Uci' must have been to push forward the braiding/ > interlacing > material and not to stitch using needle and thread. It is possible > the ?Uci? > might not have had a hole and might have had some means like a hook > to grab > the lacing material. > As for the relevance of considering the status of castes in the > post-Classical Tamil period, Hart frequently points to the > contemporary castes to add > support to his statements. For example, consider his note for Puram > 82 > which I cited earlier ("This shows that in Sangam times, ***as > now***, leather > workers were one of the lower castes." Emphasis mine.). Also in the > same > work (p.xxi), in the section ?Society: The Low Castes? he says, > "The three > most prominent of these castes were the drummers, called kiNaiyan2s > (***probably modern paRaiyan2s***)..." (Emphasis mine) The problem > is that he > ignores historical and contemporary data contradicting his theory. > For > instance, how do the Tamil washermen considered to be untouchable > by Hart in > Classical Tamil period become non-untouchable in Tamil Nadu > throughout history? > There is no epigraphic or anthropological evidence of such > washermen being > considered untouchable. There have been no recorded movements for > upward > mobility of washermen like that of Nadars in the 20th century. As for > paRaiyar, Hart is very willing to cite their status in modern times > but ignores > their higher status before the 12th century. > One does not need any ingenuity for an explanation of the classical > Tamil > society. One would hope that any explanation considers that the data > are > primary and theory should be made to fit the data, all the data and > not > ignore 'inconvenient' data or grammatical facts. There should also > be internal > consistency in statements. Hart's positions that immigrant brahmins > took up > occupations held in high esteem by the Tamil society, Tamil society > considered funerary priests as untouchables, and Vedic brahmins > became funerary > priests who cut dead bodies and bury them do not make sense. > I have mostly presented information which was not included in my > paper. > For a more detailed analysis of the question of untouchability in > Classical > Tamil period, please see my paper in which I have cited a link to > Hart's > paper in PDF too :-) > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just > 2 easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323013x1201367230/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx > ?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd= > JulystepsfooterNO62) From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Sat Jul 4 03:59:34 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 09 09:29:34 +0530 Subject: articles on textual transmission Message-ID: <161227086931.23782.14601729629401807110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This collection of articles (some in French, some in English) about textual transmission in India has just been published from the EFEO in Paris (diffusion at efeo.net): ?crire et transmettre en Inde classique G?rard Colas & Gerdi Gerschheimer (eds.), ? Etudes th?matiques ?, n ?23, 2009, 18,5 x 27,5 cm, 328 p. ISBN : 978 2 85539 098 7 ISSN : 1269-8067 The transmission of texts in premodern India cannot be dissociated from their use. Studying the milieux in which they were produced, as well as the literary genres to which they belong, can explain in part the ways in which they came into being, were read and underwent transformation. Some works, for example, are to a great extent shaped by being rooted in a fluid oral tradition; others have been submitted to the strictures of a learned discipline; others again have been transmitted by more than one path at the same time. Belles-lettres, works of grammar and philosophy, epigraphy, religious literature and ritual manuals all present different situations. The papers in this volume consider such situations with a shared perspective: the need to go beyond a simplistic opposition between orality and writing, an opposition which reveals itself to be not particularly fruitful for the study of premodern India, and to contribute towards a critique of text-criticism, thus refining philological methods. (For a cover image, see http://www.efeo.fr/publications/vdp.shtml) CONTENTS Introduction. G?rard Colas et Gerdi Gerschheimer - Premi?re partie : normes, canons, lecteurs Texts and What to Do with Them: D?d?panth? Compilations (Monika Horstmann) Les lecteurs jaina ?vet?mbara face ? leur canon (Nalini Balbir) Retracer la transmission des textes litt?raires ? l?aide des textes ? th?oriques ? de l?Ala?k?ra??stra ancien : quelques exemples tir?s du Raghuva??a (Dominic Goodall) - Deuxi?me partie : Texte, ?criture, imitation Transmission sans ?criture dans l?Inde ancienne : ?nigme et structure rituelle (Jan E. M. Houben) The Fine Art of Forgery in India (Richard Salomon) The Alchemy of Poetry: Poetic Borrowing and the Transmission of Texts (Phyllis Granoff) - Troisi?me partie: textes labiles, textes fix?s Copier, interpr?ter, transformer, repr?senter, ou Des modes de la diffusion des ?critures et de l??crit dans le bouddhisme indien (Cristina Scherrer-Schaub) Transmission et recr?ation pur??ique : le cas du Brahm???apur??a (Christophe Vielle) On the Absence of Urtexts and Otiose ?c?ryas: Buildings, Books, and Lay Buddhist Ritual at Gilgit (Gregory Schopen) Des rites de temple aux commentaires : les diff?rentes transmissions du P?ram?tmika (G?rard Colas) - Quatri?me partie : les ma?tres retrouv?s The Pantheon of Tamil Grammarians: A Short History of the Myth of Agastya?s Twelve Disciples (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Critique et transmission textuelles dans la tradition p??in?enne (Johannes Bronkhorst) Sthitasya gati? cintan?y? ? ? propos de la ? Glose concise ? (Laghuv?tti) du ?a?dar?anasamuccaya de Haribhadra (Gerdi Gerschheimer) R?sum?s / abstracts Auteurs / Authors From tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU Sat Jul 4 18:38:25 2009 From: tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU (Mahadevan, Thennilapuram) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 09 14:38:25 -0400 Subject: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) In-Reply-To: <002E84F6-0559-4A6D-8FE9-E9D456923D96@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086940.23782.8466325255482505098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> But George Hart simplifies the issue by telescoping some version of the Sangam model first to the early Aryan period, then to pre-Aryan period. Thus Vedic clans arriving in the Panjab exclude the indigenous "dalits" as" untouchables." There is really no evidence for this. On the other hand, all recent work on the Vedic period shows that there was a great deal of assimilation between the Vedic clans and the indigenous peoples. And, surely for the Vedic period, as we know, the brahma-k?atra alliance (the two "upper castes") underlies the foundation of the Vedic society, the prince deriving his legitimacy from the Brahmans, without, however, a Brahman reciprocal acknowledgement of the prince as the civil authority and reserving it for Soma "our King". We see this dramatized in three consecutive episodes in the Agnicayana ritual, the pan-ultimate ritual of the seven-ritual Soma-scheme. As Frits Staal (2004: 523) shows, the ritual enclosure of a ?rauta sacrifice functions as a historical map, the ?rauta rituals themselves forming a sequence, along the west-east axis, essentially from Central Asia (or perhaps Eastern Iran) through the Panjab into South Asia proper, the ritual encapsulating and recapitulating the eastward movement and settlement. The ritualists clearly enact the process in the ritual by moving from the Pr?c?na??la, Old Hall, in the west to the Mah?vedi, Great Altar Space, in the east. In the Agnicayana, the Mah?vedi is clearly envisioned as the new nation-state, and the ritual episode, R???rabh??, Holding of the Realm (Episode # 22, Staal, Agni 1983 [I]: 570-88), enacts this, the four-fold division of the populace formally announced during the ritual. The Adhvaryu mutters the yajus (TS 5.7.6. 3d): ?ruca? no dhehi; br?hma?e?u ruca? r?jasu nask?dhi ruca? vi?ye?u ??dre?u? (?Give light to our Brahmans, place light in our chieftains, light in tribesmen and servants;? Staal?s translation). Clearly the system of four "castes" conceived as varnas is implicit here, and it is a hierarchical arrangement. Hart's innumerable jaatis rise at a later period. The TS is a Mantra period text, not far in time from RV 10. 90, where the four-fold division is first formally announced, and often seen as the first constitution of Aryan India. Best, T.P.Mahadevan ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of George Hart [glhart at BERKELEY.EDU] Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 9:50 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) I can understand -- and share -- Palaniappan's desire to see the old Tamil society of the Sangam works as casteless and egalitarian, just as I wish modern society were casteless. This belief about the old "golden age" of Sangam times has had enormous political consequences for modern India, and it is proved an extremely powerful idea. And it is true that in the Sangam works, we encounter views and poetry that seem almost modern and have elements of egalitarianism. This, however, does not make old Tamil society an anomaly in a premodern world in which virtually every culture had a deep and abiding belief in various sorts of magic and in a world of spirits. I can only say that, in my view, whatever "pooz" may mean (and surely the needle was not used just to push around pieces of bamboo, and I haven't seen any instance of peacock feathers being wrapped around bows), my reading of the texts shows clearly the existence of a varied group at the bottom of society who were technicians of the sacred and who interacted with the spirit world. These people are described as "of low birth" and words from the root pulai are applied to them (e.g. pulaitti). I can't accept Palaniappan's etymology of this word as related to "poli," shine -- for the root is used in many other Dravidian languages to mean a stain or to apply to very low-caste people. Its meanings in the Lexicon are "1 baseness 2 uncleanness 3 defilement 4 vice, evil way 5 lie 6 adultery 7 animal food 8 outcaste 9 stench." In any event, the papers of myself and Palaniappan are available and anyone interested in this subject can read them and come to their own conclusions. On another note, it's interesting to see "uuci" < suuci used for "needle" -- it shows how technology from the north spread among every group in old Tamilnadu. And finally, T.P. Mahadevan suggests that somehow in North India, the caste system went from the top down. I would disagree, as I don't think the whole system was somehow the result of a political imposition by the top 3 "varnas." No one from outside India has ever seen the 4 (or 5) varnas -- post-Vedic North India has always, in real terms, been characterized by many endogamous jaatis, though no doubt they have often identified with one or other varna. If one wants to get an idea of the pre-Aryan system, it is my impression that a great deal of insight can be gained by looking at the far north (Nepal) and far south. It is, of course, true that in the north, the Brahmanical system had great power and influence (as it did later in the South), but I think it is still possible in the North to see the basic outlines of an older system in which Dalits were given low status because they dealt with spirits. George Hart On Jul 3, 2009, at 11:29 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > In an earlier post Hart had included Tamil washermen among those > called ? > izicin2ar? in the Classical Tamil texts. I forgot to mention in my > last > post that contrary to what Hart has said there is not a single > instance where > washermen are called ?izicin2ar? in those texts. Instead, a > washerwoman is > called pulaitti in these texts. The difference is significant since > the > meaning of ?izicin2ar? had something to do with drumming and > nothing to do > with being low or despicable. > > Coming to Hart?s question regarding Akam 281.5, pOz refers to a split > piece of peacock feather. I see no leather there. That 'pOz' is > used in > connection with peacock feather (?pIlip pOz?) is clear from > paripATal 21.7. It is > also possible to interpret ?pOz? as referring to the split wood one > might > think the bow is made of. In either case it is the peacock feather > material that is wound around the bow. > Another important philological point about Puram 82. Hart has > failed to > consider the semantics of the verb ?niNakkum? (< DEDR 3668 ?niNa-? > 'to tie > up, fasten, braid') used in connection with making the cot. The > sleeping > surface of the cot (?kaTTil?) is made by fastening or braiding or > interlacing long strips of material. There is no need for a > separate thread and > needle for stitching the material as in tailoring. The post- > Classical Tamil work > peruGkatai 1.34.144 calls the base surface of a royal throne (also > called ? > kaTTil?) made of interlaced string as 'niNavai'. In fact, the modern > editor UVS refers to puRam 82 in his note for the line. UVS also > points to > peruGkatai 1.42.28 which mentions "mUGkil paimpOz niNavai" where > the interlacing > (for what object we do not know) is done using green bamboo 'pOz'. > The > function of 'Uci' must have been to push forward the braiding/ > interlacing > material and not to stitch using needle and thread. It is possible > the ?Uci? > might not have had a hole and might have had some means like a hook > to grab > the lacing material. > As for the relevance of considering the status of castes in the > post-Classical Tamil period, Hart frequently points to the > contemporary castes to add > support to his statements. For example, consider his note for Puram > 82 > which I cited earlier ("This shows that in Sangam times, ***as > now***, leather > workers were one of the lower castes." Emphasis mine.). Also in the > same > work (p.xxi), in the section ?Society: The Low Castes? he says, > "The three > most prominent of these castes were the drummers, called kiNaiyan2s > (***probably modern paRaiyan2s***)..." (Emphasis mine) The problem > is that he > ignores historical and contemporary data contradicting his theory. > For > instance, how do the Tamil washermen considered to be untouchable > by Hart in > Classical Tamil period become non-untouchable in Tamil Nadu > throughout history? > There is no epigraphic or anthropological evidence of such > washermen being > considered untouchable. There have been no recorded movements for > upward > mobility of washermen like that of Nadars in the 20th century. As for > paRaiyar, Hart is very willing to cite their status in modern times > but ignores > their higher status before the 12th century. > One does not need any ingenuity for an explanation of the classical > Tamil > society. One would hope that any explanation considers that the data > are > primary and theory should be made to fit the data, all the data and > not > ignore 'inconvenient' data or grammatical facts. There should also > be internal > consistency in statements. Hart's positions that immigrant brahmins > took up > occupations held in high esteem by the Tamil society, Tamil society > considered funerary priests as untouchables, and Vedic brahmins > became funerary > priests who cut dead bodies and bury them do not make sense. > I have mostly presented information which was not included in my > paper. > For a more detailed analysis of the question of untouchability in > Classical > Tamil period, please see my paper in which I have cited a link to > Hart's > paper in PDF too :-) > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just > 2 easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323013x1201367230/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx > ?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd= > JulystepsfooterNO62) From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Jul 5 00:23:21 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 09 17:23:21 -0700 Subject: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086945.23782.9321413684467784454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Palaniappan, I really don't think we need to drag this out. We disagree, period. For me, the poems describe quite clearly an institution in which people who deal with death and the spirit world are stigmatized and exist in several categories. A similar institution existed in traditional Japanese society. As for aNanku, the DED gives cognates in several languages, and the Lexicon says, "1 pain, affliction, suffering 2 disease 3 fear 4 lust 5 killing 6 deity 7 celestial damsel 8 demoness that takes away one's life by awakening lust or by other means 9 beautiful woman, as resembling a celestial damsed 10 devil 11 dancing under religious excitement, especially possession by skanda 12 low-caste person 13 beauty 14 form 15 young offspring" (Note the last meaning is given a different entry in DED). As a verb, the word means "to suffer," "to afflict," and is connected with Kannada aNunku, "depress, humble, ruin, destroy." Rajam is a fine scholar, but I do not think she has established that the word means anything other than "afflict" or something similar in any of her examples. And then, of course, we have the notion of aNanku in musical instruments played by performers (who, yes, are low caste) and in the breasts of beautiful women (because they bewitch men). And certainly, there is no commentator who sees the word as meaning anything other than "afflict" in some sense. In any event, I'm tired of quibbling. I find your commentary very interesting and even helpful, and am grateful for the ideas and insights it contains, but I don't agree with your conclusions. Dear Mahadevan, Thanks for the wonderful piece on the Vedas and varnas. I completely agree with you that the Vedic Aryans did not have a jaati system in the early period. But what about the following speculation: 1. The Aryans must have been a tiny population next to the original inhabitants -- evidence: the pre-Aryan skeletons in the IV show the same genetic features as today. Besides, it just stands to reason. 2. We happen to have preserved an enormous amount of sacred literature from a very small class one of whose purposes was to empower itself. This literature no doubt describes the ritual culture of the Aryans from the view of the Brahmins -- but inevitably that view is skewed. As you know, one gets very different views of hierarchy in modern South India from different groups. 3. The pre-Aryan culture of N. India was materially far more advanced than that of the Aryans. The people who lived there must have had an extremely complex and rich culture. Note that many have seen evidence of "caste" separation in IV cities. 4. Even if we ignore the IV Civilization, the fact is that a rich village culture existed in N. India for millennia before the advent of the Aryans. Village culture tends to be highly resistant to change. Villages may have incorporated Aryan elements and language, but I suspect their basic social institutions were little changed. Who has not been struck by the virtual identity of the IV bullock cart and its modern counterpart? Given all these facts, is it not inevitable that many elements of pre- existing culture(s) of N. India found their way into the "Vedic" milieu? And, if jaati were a prominent feature of this indigenous culture, is it not plausible that it was slowly taken up by the "Vedic" people? (I use quotes because by the time they had absorbed these elements, they were as much or more indigenous as they were Vedic). What seems likely to me is that jaati was as much a part of all of South Asian culture 4000 years ago as it is today -- though no doubt it has changed in many ways (and of course is different today in different areas). Is it not more likely that it was absorbed from pre- existing cultures by the Aryans than that it somehow miraculously evolved from the varna system (which, I would suggest, was itself a response to the jaati system the Aryans encountered among the indigenous people)? From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jul 4 21:49:36 2009 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 09 17:49:36 -0400 Subject: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) Message-ID: <161227086943.23782.13515153648048592365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am glad TP mentioned Hart's theory of aNaGku. Please read V. S. Rajam's ? aNaGku: A Notion Semantically Reduced to Signify Female Sacred Power.? Journal of the American Oriental Society 106, 2 (1986) 257-272. The article has a lot of data on aNaGku in Classical Tamil and also notes, "As per Cankam poetry, neither ?the bards? nor other ?low caste people? had any association with aNaGku; one cannot claim that they possessed aNaGku in order to control it elsewhere. Their involvement in battle or funeral rites does not adequately substantiate their proclaimed association with aNaGku." Let us see what Hart says regarding contact with the sacred and social status. in his ?The Poems of Ancient Tamil, Their Milieu and Their Sanskrit Counterparts,?, 1975, p. 124, he says, ?If the ancient Tamils considered many persons low because their occupations brought them into contact with dangerous sacred power, it is natural to wonder whether the vElan2, the priest of murukan2, who is in more intimate contact with such power than anyone else, was also considered to be low. It is true that the vElan2 is never called low or base in the poems, but in modern Kerala members of one of the subcastes of paRaiyan2s are called vElan2s. One of their jobs is to tell the future, like the vElan2s of ancient Tamil literature, from whom they are no doubt descended. Furthermore, it has been seen that in puR. 259 a pulaitti, or base woman, is possessed by murukan2 and shakes, much like the vElan2, and that, in puR. 335, the kaTampan2, who was probably a priest of murukan2, is classed among the low castes. In light of this evidence, it is likely that the vElan2 was in fact considered a low person.? There is nothing in puR. 335 saying kaTampan2 was of low caste. Moreover, one can see that what Hart calls evidence is simply speculation built on speculation and based on the contemporary status of a social group. What is in fact true is that vElan2 is never called low or base in the poems. That Hart?s theory of the sacred and his explanation regarding the basis for untouchability among Tamils are without foundation can be shown by the case of the Tamil potters. Tamil potters have been serving as priests from the Classical Tamil period (See naRRiNai 293) till today. They have never been considered untouchables. In fact, they have enjoyed high status. Even according to Hart, Classical Tamil poets were high status persons. A potter woman, veNNik kuyattiyAr, was a Classical Tamil poet. During medieval times, we see many inscriptions where potters function as high status official scribes/accountants, even in brahmin villages and famous temples such as the one in tiruvArUr. For instance,in the Leiden Plates of Rajaraja I (Epigraphia Indica, vol. 22, 213-265), we find on p. 253 "..aRavOlai ceytu kuTuttOm kshatriyazikhAmaNi vaLanATTup paTTaNak kURRattu brahmadeyam uvarkkuTi sabhaiyOm sbhaiyAr colla ezutin2En2 ivvUrk karaNattAn2 vETkOvan2 mAnAkan2 nArAyananEn2". For another example, an inscription of the 13th regnal year of the Pandyan king JaTavarman Zrivallabha of early 12th century (No. 233, South Indian Inscription volume 14) has "...ippaTikku nATTukkaNa[kku] tirukkOTTIyUr vETkOvan2 valaGkai nArAyaNa mUvEntavELAn2 ezuttu ivai maTTi UruTaiyAn2 vETkOvan2 [ni]RupacEkara mUvEntavELAn2 ezuttu....". Their titles mUvEntavELAn2 indicate their high official status. For the potters' present day priestly role, please see? ?Possession and Pottery: Serving the Divine in a South Indian Community,? by Stephen Inglis in Gods of Flesh, Gods of Stone: The Embodiment of Divinity in India, ed. by Joanne Punzo Waghorne and Norman Cutler, 1985, Columbia University Press, 88-101. Inglis notes, ?The vELAr potters of Madurai District in Tamilnadu are a community with an active tradition of possession rituals and are acknowledged possession ?specialists? in their region.? These potters are by no means considered untouchables which they should have been if Hart?s theories had any validity. Let me ask this. I am giving below descriptions from two literary texts regarding persons from two groups, X and Y. What can one say about the relative social status of X and Y? 1. nan2mai niRainta nayavaru X 2. na2maiyAl mikka Y Regards Palaniappan In a message dated 7/3/2009 11:59:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time, tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU writes: George Hart: "[T]he caste system grew from the bottom up" This would pose a problem with the caste system of North India, as we know it, but Hart's point that the system had something to do with "dangerous" worlds would seem to be beyond question, and that, consequently, the group who were engaged in it, whether it is the ritual world of Vedism or the spirit world of the ananku in the Tamil world, was outside the "ordered world". As is well known, the ritually active Brahman is a sort of an "untouchable" among other Brahmans for the same reasons as certain castes were considered "low" in the Sangam period. Both transact with "dangerous" worlds. Yet, as we know, the two groups are "untouchable" in radically different ways. Thus the North Indian caste system seems to grow from top down. T.P.Mahadevan **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323013x1201367230/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd= JulystepsfooterNO62) From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sun Jul 5 05:08:46 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 09 10:38:46 +0530 Subject: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) Message-ID: <161227086948.23782.12770532524653029315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, It seems that tho there is no such explicit statement, the correspondents assume an integral relation between casteism and medievaluntouchbilty.? There seems to exist an unwritten concensus on this among all scholars. Untouchabilty of course existed in Paanini's time (c.400 BCE?) but with an extremely limited scope. They are called aniravasita in P.2.4.10. Patanjali (between 187- 151 BCE)?includes two castes among them Candaalas and Mrtapas. Both of them dealt with dead bodies. And they were not graamvaahyas 'living outside the village'. Patanjali refers to their large neighbourhoods surrounded by Aryan neighbourhoods. Kautilya too speaks of? Candaalas, otherwise he is silent on untouchability. The violently excluded 'untouchables' of the North and the reciprocal untouchability of the South,?should have grown much later. Their 'untouchability' had nothing to do with superstitions about dead bodies. This all pervasive untouchability is, according to my knowledge, till now, on the whole,an unexplored subject.The earliest evidence of their existence comes, perhaps, from the Dharmasuutras which are much later. Casteim , as many scholars have thought, is of pre-Aryan Indian origin. But this cannot hold good of medieval Indian untouchablity. Sometimes I pointed to this enigma of untouchability. But the views were expressed in India and that too in Bengali. ? Best wishes DB From: George Hart Subject: Re: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Saturday, 4 July, 2009, 7:20 PM I can understand -- and share -- Palaniappan's desire to see the old Tamil society of the Sangam works as casteless and egalitarian, just as I wish modern society were casteless.? This belief about the old "golden age" of Sangam times has had enormous political consequences for modern India, and it is proved an extremely powerful idea.? And it is true that in the Sangam works, we encounter views and poetry that seem almost modern and have elements of egalitarianism.? This, however, does not make old Tamil society an anomaly in a premodern world in which virtually every culture had a deep and abiding belief in various sorts of magic and in a world of spirits.? I can only say that, in my view, whatever "pooz" may mean (and surely the needle was not used just to push around pieces of bamboo, and I haven't seen any instance of peacock feathers being wrapped around bows), my reading of the texts shows clearly the existence of a varied group at the bottom of society who were technicians of the sacred and who interacted with the spirit world.? These people are described as "of low birth" and words from the root pulai are applied to them (e.g. pulaitti).? I can't accept Palaniappan's etymology of this word as related to "poli," shine -- for the root is used in many other Dravidian languages to mean a stain or to apply to very low-caste people.? Its meanings in the Lexicon are "1 baseness 2 uncleanness 3 defilement 4 vice, evil way 5 lie 6 adultery 7 animal food 8 outcaste 9 stench."? In any event, the papers of myself and Palaniappan are available and anyone interested in this subject can read them and come to their own conclusions. On another note, it's interesting to see "uuci" < suuci used for "needle" -- it shows how technology from the north spread among every group in old Tamilnadu. And finally, T.P. Mahadevan suggests that somehow in North India, the caste system went from the top down.? I would disagree, as I don't think the whole system was somehow the result of a political imposition by the top 3 "varnas."? No one from outside India has ever seen the 4 (or 5) varnas -- post-Vedic North India has always, in real terms, been characterized by many endogamous jaatis, though no doubt they have often identified with one or other varna.? If one wants to get an idea of the pre-Aryan system, it is my impression that a great deal of insight can be gained by looking at the far north (Nepal) and far south.? It is, of course, true that in the north, the Brahmanical system had great power and influence (as it did later in the South), but I think it is still possible in the North to see the basic outlines of an older system in which Dalits were given low status because they dealt with spirits.? George Hart On Jul 3, 2009, at 11:29 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > In? an earlier post Hart had included Tamil washermen among those called? ? > izicin2ar? in the Classical Tamil texts. I forgot to mention in my last > post that contrary to what Hart has said there is not a single instance where > washermen are called ?izicin2ar? in those texts. Instead, a washerwoman is > called pulaitti in these texts. The difference is significant since the > meaning? of ?izicin2ar? had something to do with drumming and nothing to do > with being? low or despicable. > > Coming? to Hart?s question regarding Akam 281.5, pOz refers to a split > piece of peacock? feather. I see no leather there. That 'pOz' is used in > connection with peacock? feather (?pIlip pOz?) is clear from paripATal 21.7. It is > also possible to? interpret ?pOz? as referring to the split wood one might > think the bow is made? of. In either case it is the peacock feather > material that is wound around the? bow. > Another? important philological point about Puram 82. Hart has failed to > consider the? semantics of the verb ?niNakkum? (< DEDR 3668 ?niNa-? 'to tie > up, fasten,? braid') used in connection with making the cot. The sleeping > surface of the? cot (?kaTTil?) is made by fastening or braiding or > interlacing long strips? of material. There is no need for a separate thread and > needle for? stitching the material as in tailoring. The post-Classical Tamil work > peruGkatai? 1.34.144 calls the base surface of a royal throne (also called ? > kaTTil?)? made of interlaced string as 'niNavai'. In fact, the modern > editor UVS refers to? puRam 82 in his note for the line. UVS also points to > peruGkatai 1.42.28 which? mentions "mUGkil paimpOz niNavai" where the interlacing > (for what object we do? not know) is done using green bamboo 'pOz'.? The > function of 'Uci' must? have been to push forward the braiding/interlacing > material and not to? stitch using needle and thread. It is possible the ?Uci? > might not? have had a hole and might have had some means like a hook to grab > the lacing? material. > As? for the relevance of considering the status of castes in the > post-Classical? Tamil period, Hart frequently points to the contemporary castes to add > support? to his statements. For example, consider his note for Puram 82 > which I? cited earlier ("This shows that in Sangam times, ***as now***, leather > workers? were one of the lower castes." Emphasis mine.). Also in the same > work (p.xxi),? in the section ?Society: The Low Castes? he says, "The three > most prominent of? these castes were the drummers, called kiNaiyan2s > (***probably modern? paRaiyan2s***)..." (Emphasis mine) The problem is that he > ignores historical and? contemporary data contradicting his theory. For > instance, how? do the Tamil washermen considered to be untouchable by Hart in > Classical Tamil period become non-untouchable in Tamil Nadu throughout? history? > There is no epigraphic or anthropological evidence of such? washermen being > considered untouchable. There have been no recorded? movements for upward > mobility of washermen like that of Nadars in the 20th? century. As for > paRaiyar, Hart is very willing to cite their status in modern? times but ignores > their higher status before the 12th century. > One? does not need any ingenuity for an explanation of the classical Tamil > society. One would hope that any explanation considers that the data are > primary? and theory should be made to fit the data, all the data and not > ignore? 'inconvenient' data or grammatical facts. There should also be internal > consistency in statements. Hart's positions that immigrant brahmins took up > occupations held in high esteem by the Tamil society, Tamil society > considered? funerary priests as untouchables, and Vedic brahmins became funerary > priests who cut dead bodies and bury them do not make sense. > I? have mostly presented information which was not included in my paper. > For? a more detailed analysis of the question of untouchability in? Classical > Tamil period, please see my paper in which I have cited a link to? Hart's > paper in PDF too :-) > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323013x1201367230/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd= > JulystepsfooterNO62) Looking for local information? Find it on Yahoo! Local http://in.local.yahoo.com/ From tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU Sun Jul 5 15:42:22 2009 From: tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU (Mahadevan, Thennilapuram) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 09 11:42:22 -0400 Subject: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) In-Reply-To: <4F804088-09E4-4913-9D38-7796BED4B2AB@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086951.23782.7858045347507073472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't mean to drag this out and my last note as clarification: As far as is possible to infer, Hart is right on the first three points in his note, that the Vedic clans constituted a small number against the indigenous peoples of South Asia; that the indigenous peoples were materially more advanced; and that the literature that has survived is all Vedic, thus valorizing the Brahmans as the keepers of the texts, as it were. The oral tradition that came with the Vedic clans would seem to be determinant factor. As we know, Witzel (1999; 2003), following the Ehret (1988) model, has been characterizing the Vedic oral tradition a a sort of "status kit" providing the indigenous peoples an entry into Vedic society through the mastery of the Vedic status kit. We have a number of poets in the RV whose names are not philologically Vedic, who seem to found what appear later in the Brahmanical gotra system as the "kevala" appellations, 7 among the Angirasas and 4 among the Bhrgus. Several of these seem also the result of possible niyoga alliances between the Vedic clans and local populations. We even have what Kuiper (2000; Narten festschrift) called a bilingual rsi at RV 10.106. We do not know if an oral tradition existed among the indigenous populations of northwest South Asia at this time. Staal (1993 [?]: the Heesterman festschrift) has argued that the Samaveda may reflect a local oral tradtion, modifying the rks of the RV: the SV is a Mantra period text made up of rks but "chanted" rather than recited (as rks are) but with such novel features as to preclude a natural evolution from the RV style within the time period in question. It would seem that the immigrant Vedic oral tradition, part of the IE milieu (Jamison 2007), was successful in establishing a hegemony, as its sister traditions were, in Iran (Avesta) and Greece (Homer). And the agents of this oral tradition, Vedic as well as non-Vedic, naturally rose to a privileged group, with the leisure for the svaadhyaaya sytem, without which the texts would not have survived, as "tape recordings." This agency eventually becomes the historical Brahman group, made, it should be emphasized, from both Vedic and non-Vedic peolpes, in charge of a pan-Vedic sytem, and cohered as a "caste" grouping through the well known Gotra-based endogamy-exogamy marital relations. It is a closed caste grouping by the Brahmana and Sutra periods and later, wherever the Brahmans migrated. For instance, when the Brahmans came to the Sangam Tamil country, no new admixture took place between Brahmans, now a decidedly closed caste group, and local peoples--or rather, when it took place, as for instance with the Nambudiri Brahmans and Nairs of Kerala, the melae descendants did not enter the Vedic svaadhyaaya system. As we know, they did acquire Sanskrit learning, producing land mark figures, even providing the Nambudiri boys what may be called non-Vedic secular Sanskrit education. Many thanks, George Hart, for a useful discussion. ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of George Hart [glhart at BERKELEY.EDU] Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 8:23 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) Dear Palaniappan, I really don't think we need to drag this out. We disagree, period. For me, the poems describe quite clearly an institution in which people who deal with death and the spirit world are stigmatized and exist in several categories. A similar institution existed in traditional Japanese society. As for aNanku, the DED gives cognates in several languages, and the Lexicon says, "1 pain, affliction, suffering 2 disease 3 fear 4 lust 5 killing 6 deity 7 celestial damsel 8 demoness that takes away one's life by awakening lust or by other means 9 beautiful woman, as resembling a celestial damsed 10 devil 11 dancing under religious excitement, especially possession by skanda 12 low-caste person 13 beauty 14 form 15 young offspring" (Note the last meaning is given a different entry in DED). As a verb, the word means "to suffer," "to afflict," and is connected with Kannada aNunku, "depress, humble, ruin, destroy." Rajam is a fine scholar, but I do not think she has established that the word means anything other than "afflict" or something similar in any of her examples. And then, of course, we have the notion of aNanku in musical instruments played by performers (who, yes, are low caste) and in the breasts of beautiful women (because they bewitch men). And certainly, there is no commentator who sees the word as meaning anything other than "afflict" in some sense. In any event, I'm tired of quibbling. I find your commentary very interesting and even helpful, and am grateful for the ideas and insights it contains, but I don't agree with your conclusions. Dear Mahadevan, Thanks for the wonderful piece on the Vedas and varnas. I completely agree with you that the Vedic Aryans did not have a jaati system in the early period. But what about the following speculation: 1. The Aryans must have been a tiny population next to the original inhabitants -- evidence: the pre-Aryan skeletons in the IV show the same genetic features as today. Besides, it just stands to reason. 2. We happen to have preserved an enormous amount of sacred literature from a very small class one of whose purposes was to empower itself. This literature no doubt describes the ritual culture of the Aryans from the view of the Brahmins -- but inevitably that view is skewed. As you know, one gets very different views of hierarchy in modern South India from different groups. 3. The pre-Aryan culture of N. India was materially far more advanced than that of the Aryans. The people who lived there must have had an extremely complex and rich culture. Note that many have seen evidence of "caste" separation in IV cities. 4. Even if we ignore the IV Civilization, the fact is that a rich village culture existed in N. India for millennia before the advent of the Aryans. Village culture tends to be highly resistant to change. Villages may have incorporated Aryan elements and language, but I suspect their basic social institutions were little changed. Who has not been struck by the virtual identity of the IV bullock cart and its modern counterpart? Given all these facts, is it not inevitable that many elements of pre- existing culture(s) of N. India found their way into the "Vedic" milieu? And, if jaati were a prominent feature of this indigenous culture, is it not plausible that it was slowly taken up by the "Vedic" people? (I use quotes because by the time they had absorbed these elements, they were as much or more indigenous as they were Vedic). What seems likely to me is that jaati was as much a part of all of South Asian culture 4000 years ago as it is today -- though no doubt it has changed in many ways (and of course is different today in different areas). Is it not more likely that it was absorbed from pre- existing cultures by the Aryans than that it somehow miraculously evolved from the varna system (which, I would suggest, was itself a response to the jaati system the Aryans encountered among the indigenous people)? From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Jul 5 19:04:20 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 09 12:04:20 -0700 Subject: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) In-Reply-To: <748206.29901.qm@web8601.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227086954.23782.4156487657142673464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> on 7/4/2009 10:08 PM Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > This all pervasive untouchability is, according to my knowledge, till now, on the whole,an unexplored subject. Dear Dipak, These are good studies: Aktor, Mikael. 2002. Rules of Untouchability in Ancient and Medieval Law Books: Householders, Competence, and Inauspiciousness. International Journal of Hindu Studies 6, no. 3: 243-74. Jha, Vivekanand. 1986-1987. Candala and the Origin of Untouchability. The Indian Historical Review 13, no. 1-2: 1-36. Regards, Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Jul 5 21:27:09 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 09 14:27:09 -0700 Subject: Etymologies of bali (Tam. pali), piNTa In-Reply-To: <4A50F934.1000306@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086956.23782.13996795760040669041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two of the more intriguing words in old Tamil are piNTam (Skt. piNTa) and pali (Skt. bali, sacrifice). It would be significant if both these were borrowed from Sanskrit or Prakrit -- but it's difficult to determine. As I remember it, Mayrhofer does not have an IE etymology for either. PiNTam could belong in DED 4183 (Tam. pizi, squeeze, piNTi, oilcake made of the residue of oil seeds, etc. in many Dravidian languages). Bali does not appear to have any plausible Dravidian root. I am wondering when these words appear in IA and what their oldest usages are. If they are not Dravidian, Tamil could have borrowed them from a non-IE source at a very early time from which Sanskrit also took them, or, of course, it could have borrowed them from Sanskrit/Prakrit. One similar word that old Tamil has borrowed from Sanskrit/Prakrit, probably through the Buddhists or Jains, is bhuuta (Tam. puutam), "ghost." This word, curiously, appears in several old Tamil names. G. Hart From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Jul 6 04:27:28 2009 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 09 00:27:28 -0400 Subject: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) Message-ID: <161227086959.23782.2366514038726854804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not mean to drag out this discussion either. In any case, I had ended the last post with a quiz (:-)) and regrettably there was a typo in it. So, for the benefit of the list, let me give the correct version of the two lines with translations and some closing remarks. 1. ?nan2mai niRainta nayavaru pANa? O likeable bard filled with auspiciousness 2. ?nan2maiyAl mikka nAn2maRaiyALarkaL? Brahmins of four vedas abounding in auspiciousness The first line occurs in Classical Tamil text puRam. 308.3. The second line occurs in the post-Classical Tamil vaiSNava devotional text nAlAyirat tivviyap pirapantam 940.1. As anyone can see, the two descriptions are semantically virtually identical. In the Classical Tamil period, it is the bard who is described as auspicious while in the post-Classical period it is the brahmin who is called auspicious. In my opinion, one cannot interpret one group to be untouchable and the other to be of high social status. The rest of the lines of the devotional verse seen below should also be of interest to the list: nan2maiyAl mikka nAn2maRaiyALarkaL pun2maiyAkak karutuvar Atalin2 an2n2aiyAy attan2Ay en2n2ai ANTiTum tan2maiyAn2 caTakOpan2 en2 nampiyE ?Since the brahmins of the four Vedas abounding in auspiciousness (nan2mai) will consider my conduct as one of baseness (pun2mai Thank you for your email message. I am on sabbatical leave for the 2009-2010 academic year, with only irregular access to email. I will answer your message as soon as possible. Thank you. John Nemec Assistant Professor of Indian Religions and South Asian Studies From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Jul 6 15:21:54 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 09 08:21:54 -0700 Subject: My final post on this In-Reply-To: <4A51DB01.90302@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227086976.23782.9987710797186836474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let me quickly add that in the heat of arguing, I expressed myself a bit too strongly. Certainly Rajam's article is worth reading, as she is an eminent scholar. Her book on the grammar of Old Tamil is indispensable and she has often given me valuable insights, which I have acknowledged. If anyone is interested, they should certainly read what she has written and form their own opinion. I also agree with Jean-Luc that my comment on Rajam's article was not sufficient -- one needs to look at the word in all its contexts. Still, from all my reading and experience with old Tamil, I do not believe Rajam is correct in making the meaning of the word so broad. I would revisit this (and perhaps I will), but I find myself no longer having such an interest in historical anthropology -- I am nowadays much more interested in the old literature and its poetry. I would like to end my comments on this subject (I promise) by thanking everyone involved. I find disagreement is extremely helpful in considering difficult issues. Prof. Tieken, with whom I largely disagree, has made me much more open to issues of dating in old Tamil, Palaniappan has raised many excellent points, as did Rajam. Finally, I'd like to suggest that this forum has been moribund too long. There has been almost no debate on important issues regarding Sanskrit, which is the expertise of 99% of the people on the forum. The interesting topics have been the IV culture and old Tamil -- perhaps it takes the Tamil penchant for argument and disagreement to bring life to this forum? As I remember it, ZDMG has some wonderfully heated discussions of the RV and other issues -- could we not emulate that old journal and have a bit more of scholarly (not political) debate here? And for everyone who works primarily with Sanskrit, I hope this discussion sheds a bit of light on just how rich and important old Tamil are. George Hart By the way, my article on caste in ancient South India is available at http://www.tamilnation.org/caste/hart.pdf . On Jul 6, 2009, at 4:07 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > I do not think that this is a fair summary of > (or a sufficient comment on) > V.S. Rajam's article > (which appeared in the Journal of the American Oriental Society, > Vol. 106, No. 2 (Apr. - Jun., 1986), pp. 257-272 > and which is available on JSTOR at > > > > I shall simply say that > all my colleagues who can read original Tamil sources > and with whom I have spoken about V.S. Rajam's article > think that it is an excellent article > and that many of the points of view expressed by G.Hart > are superseded by the points of view expressed in this article. > > Quoting the Madras Tamil Lexicon (MTL) > as a comment on VSR's article > is simply insufficient > because the MTL is a compilation based on various sources > and does not have an authority which would be independant > from the authority that those sources possess. > > And the DED is itself a preliminary compilation of various > dictionaries. > > Therefore, the ongoing collective thought process, as far as > a?a?ku (??????) is concerned, is: > > -- Step 1: compilation of MTL > > -- Step 2: compilation of DED > > -- Step 3: George Hart presents his views on a?a?ku > (??????) > > -- Step 4: VSR argues that George Hart's view do not fairly > represent the available philological data > > -- Step 5: ... > > However, since I have the impression that everybody on the Indology > list > has had enough of that thread, > I shall simply recommend > as Step 5 > to anyone interested > in the topic of a?a?ku (??????) to read V.S. Rajam's > article > and to form their own opinion. > > I believe the best way a debate on a mailing list can end > is when one receives an incentive for further reading. > > Best wishes > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) > > > George Hart a ?crit : >> [...] As for aNanku, the DED gives cognates in several languages, >> and the Lexicon says, "1 pain, affliction, suffering 2 disease 3 >> fear 4 lust 5 killing 6 deity 7 celestial damsel 8 demoness that >> takes away one's life by awakening lust or by other means 9 >> beautiful woman, as resembling a celestial damsed 10 devil 11 >> dancing under religious excitement, especially possession by skanda >> 12 low-caste person 13 beauty 14 form 15 young offspring" (Note the >> last meaning is given a different entry in DED). As a verb, the >> word means "to suffer," "to afflict," and is connected with Kannada >> aNunku, "depress, humble, ruin, destroy." Rajam is a fine scholar, >> but I do not think she has established that the word means anything >> other than "afflict" or something similar in any of her examples. >> And then, of course, we have the notion of aNanku in musical >> instruments played by performers (who, yes, are low caste) and in >> the breasts of beautiful women (because they bewitch men). And >> certainly, there is no commentator who sees the word as meaning >> anything other than "afflict" in some sense. From jglausch at WEB.DE Mon Jul 6 09:12:39 2009 From: jglausch at WEB.DE (Janet Glausch) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 09 11:12:39 +0200 Subject: Religious Non-conformism and Cultural Dynamics Message-ID: <161227086962.23782.15573186543207491408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Doctoral scholarships Graduate college "Religious Non-conformism and Cultural Dynamics" University of Leipzig Deadline: 19 July 2009 The graduate college "Religious Non-conformism and Cultural Dynamics" will award 5 doctoral scholarships for a period of three years, beginning on 1 October 2009. The college conducts research on religious non-conformism in various regional and temporal contexts. The central thesis is that religious nonconformism is an essential element of the religious field and a potential resource of alternative meaning and orientation, constituting an element of cultural tension and dynamics. The project is arranged along three lines of interest: (1) The tension between religious nonconformism and conformity, i.e. the dominant forms of (religious) orientations and ways of life. (2) The innovative potential and the transforming dynamics of religious nonconformism. (3) The social structure, the interconnectedness, and the societal position of nonconformist groups and milieus. The college places the study of religious non-conformism in an interdisciplinary and comparative context. The fields of research include Study of Religions, Sociology of Religion, African Studies, Old Testament / Ancient Near Eastern Studies, Arabic / Islamic Studies, History, Indology, Jewish Studies, Church History, Tibetology, East Asian Religions. We are looking for candidates from within and outside Germany with an above-average degree. Their dissertation project must deal with religious non-conformism in one of the fields named above. The languages of the college will be German and English. Candidates with insufficient German whose projects are chosen for the college can in addition (from 1 January 2010) obtain a scholarship for linguistic training. Applicants will normally be no older than 28. (But time spent rearing children, as well as national service etc. may be taken into account.) Those given a scholarship must undertake to live in Leipzig. The University of Leipzig aims to raise the proportion of women and therefore calls upon women to apply. Handicapped people with equal qualifications will be given preference. Applications (in German or English) should include: - a description of the research project, max. 10 pages, with time plan - a curriculum vitae and copies of certificates - a specimen of written work (e.g. Master's thesis) - a letter from an academic referee - a list of publications (if any). Please send these in electronic form (as pdf files) to: nonkonformismus at uni-leipzig.de Prof. Dr. Hubert Seiwert Graduiertenkolleg Religi?ser Nonkonformismus Religionswissenschaftliches Institut Schillerstrasse 6 D-04109 Leipzig ______________________________________________________ GRATIS f?r alle WEB.DE-Nutzer: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://movieflat.web.de From h.t.bakker at RUG.NL Mon Jul 6 09:14:46 2009 From: h.t.bakker at RUG.NL (Hans Bakker) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 09 11:14:46 +0200 Subject: Religious Non-conformism and Cultural Dynamics In-Reply-To: <739052022@web.de> Message-ID: <161227086967.23782.17561594951603064948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends and Colleagues, I shall be out of station and unable to answer your messages from July 7 to August 2, 2009 Hans Bakker From heike.moser at UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE Mon Jul 6 10:13:20 2009 From: heike.moser at UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (Heike Moser) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 09 12:13:20 +0200 Subject: Position as Professor (W3) of Social and Cultural Anthropology (South Asia / India), Tuebingen / Germany In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086971.23782.10433647358121700099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Position as Professor (W 3) of Social and Cultural Anthropology at the Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies at the University of T?bingen The Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies in the Faculty of Cultural Studies at T?bingen University invites applications for the position of Professor for Social and Cultural Anthropology. The applicant should be specialised on South Asia, in particular India, and be acquainted with a broad spectrum of anthropological research and teaching. The position is due to commence on the 1st October 2010. The preferred candidate has carried out long-term anthropological research on at least one society in this region. The expertise of the person selected shall broaden the existing range of research and instruction at the Department of Social and Cultural Anthropology. The position is integrated into the interdisciplinary Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies at the Faculty of Cultural Studies. The selected person will participate in their existing research projects and courses but also in the work of academic centres associated with the faculty. Requirements for appointment are: ?Habilitation? (i.e. professorship status) or an equivalent qualification (e.g. PhD and ?second book?) as well as a didactic qualification. T?bingen University is particularly interested in applications from female candidates for this position and therefore strongly urges women to apply. Applications from a disabled candidate will be given preference if the qualifications of this candidate are identical to that of a non-disabled candidate. Applications with the usual documents (Curriculum Vitae, certificates, list of publications and teaching experience) should be sent to: Dean of the Faculty of Cultural Studies, H?lderlin Strasse 19, 72074 T?bingen, Germany. The closing date for applications is 30.September 2009 For further information see our homepage: http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/ETHNOLOGIE/stellenangebote.html *************** Dr. Heike Moser *************** Eberhard-Karls-Universitaet Tuebingen Asien-Orient-Institut (AOI) Abteilung fuer Indologie und Vergleichende Religionswissenschaft Gartenstr. 19 72074 Tuebingen / Germany Tel: ++49-(0)7071-2974005 Fax: ++49-(0)7071-255496 ***** Marktgasse 2 72070 Tuebingen / Germany Tel: ++49-(0)7071-147993 Mobile: ++49-(0)176-20030066 Fax: ++49-(0)3212-1084518 *************** http://homepages.uni-tuebingen.de/heike.moser/ *************** From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Mon Jul 6 11:07:45 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 09 13:07:45 +0200 Subject: Untoucables in Classical Tamil Society? (Re: New discovery in Tamil Nadu) In-Reply-To: <4F804088-09E4-4913-9D38-7796BED4B2AB@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086974.23782.16334543284181545758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not think that this is a fair summary of (or a sufficient comment on) V.S. Rajam's article (which appeared in the Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 106, No. 2 (Apr. - Jun., 1986), pp. 257-272 and which is available on JSTOR at I shall simply say that all my colleagues who can read original Tamil sources and with whom I have spoken about V.S. Rajam's article think that it is an excellent article and that many of the points of view expressed by G.Hart are superseded by the points of view expressed in this article. Quoting the Madras Tamil Lexicon (MTL) as a comment on VSR's article is simply insufficient because the MTL is a compilation based on various sources and does not have an authority which would be independant from the authority that those sources possess. And the DED is itself a preliminary compilation of various dictionaries. Therefore, the ongoing collective thought process, as far as a?a?ku (??????) is concerned, is: -- Step 1: compilation of MTL -- Step 2: compilation of DED -- Step 3: George Hart presents his views on a?a?ku (??????) -- Step 4: VSR argues that George Hart's view do not fairly represent the available philological data -- Step 5: ... However, since I have the impression that everybody on the Indology list has had enough of that thread, I shall simply recommend as Step 5 to anyone interested in the topic of a?a?ku (??????) to read V.S. Rajam's article and to form their own opinion. I believe the best way a debate on a mailing list can end is when one receives an incentive for further reading. Best wishes -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) George Hart a ?crit : > [...] As for aNanku, the DED gives cognates in several languages, and > the Lexicon says, "1 pain, affliction, suffering 2 disease 3 fear 4 > lust 5 killing 6 deity 7 celestial damsel 8 demoness that takes away > one's life by awakening lust or by other means 9 beautiful woman, as > resembling a celestial damsed 10 devil 11 dancing under religious > excitement, especially possession by skanda 12 low-caste person 13 > beauty 14 form 15 young offspring" (Note the last meaning is given a > different entry in DED). As a verb, the word means "to suffer," "to > afflict," and is connected with Kannada aNunku, "depress, humble, > ruin, destroy." Rajam is a fine scholar, but I do not think she has > established that the word means anything other than "afflict" or > something similar in any of her examples. And then, of course, we have > the notion of aNanku in musical instruments played by performers (who, > yes, are low caste) and in the breasts of beautiful women (because > they bewitch men). And certainly, there is no commentator who sees the > word as meaning anything other than "afflict" in some sense. From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Jul 6 20:53:41 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 09 16:53:41 -0400 Subject: Nubian tribe? Message-ID: <161227086979.23782.16469824299518033692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could this have something to do with the 19th c. fraud I seem to recall which interpolated a mention of the sources of the Nile into an older text? I vaguely remember that Daniel Ingalls touched on this in a brief article on Sanskrit frauds in JAOS, but am not having any success locating the citation at the moment. Perhaps someone else will remember. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >>> Jonathan Silk 6/29/2009 8:45:31 AM >>> Friends, an Arabist colleague writes to me as follows: I'm writing an encyclopaedia article about a Nubian tribe known as Barabra which lived along the Nile river in southern Egypt and the Sudan. Now I came across a reference that "Sanskrit historians write already about the Old Race of the Barabra living along the Upper Nile." Do you have any idea where I could find out what and when and who? I don't have any idea, but can anyone help? -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU Mon Jul 6 21:48:11 2009 From: rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Rosane Rocher) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 09 17:48:11 -0400 Subject: Nubian tribe? In-Reply-To: <20090706T165341Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227086982.23782.3859886729423108332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen, You are probably thinking of Francis Wilford's "On Egypt and other countries adjacent to the Cali River, or Nile of Ethiopia, from the ancient books of the Hindus," /Asiatic Researches /3 (1792): 295-468. Rosane / / Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Could this have something to do with the 19th c. fraud I seem to recall which interpolated a mention of the sources of the Nile into an older text? I vaguely remember that Daniel Ingalls touched on this in a brief article on Sanskrit frauds in JAOS, but am not having any success locating the citation at the moment. Perhaps someone else will remember. > > Allen > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. > > >>>> Jonathan Silk 6/29/2009 8:45:31 AM >>> >>>> > > Friends, an Arabist colleague writes to me as follows: > > I'm writing an encyclopaedia article about a Nubian tribe known as Barabra > which lived along the Nile river in southern Egypt and the Sudan. Now I came > across a reference that "Sanskrit historians write already about the Old > Race of the Barabra living along the Upper Nile." Do you have any idea where > I could find out what and when and who? > > I don't have any idea, but can anyone help? > > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Jul 7 02:06:24 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 09 07:36:24 +0530 Subject: Nubian tribe? Message-ID: <161227086987.23782.13314109485637686990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps the following?is a different case or may be the one Allen refers to, it should be related. D.D.Kosambi (junior; Introd. Study.Ind.History 1956)?was duped by the fraud. In an otherwise eulogistic review (JAOS) Ingalls had referred to the fraud and to what he regarded as Kosambi's blunder. As far as I remember the review appeared sometime before 1958. I read it in 1966. Best for all DB? --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: From: Allen W Thrasher Subject: Re: Nubian tribe? To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 2:23 AM Could this have something to do with the 19th c. fraud I seem to recall which interpolated a mention of the sources of the Nile into an older text?? I vaguely remember that Daniel Ingalls touched on this in a brief article on Sanskrit frauds in JAOS, but am not having any success locating the citation at the moment.? Perhaps someone else will remember. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >>> Jonathan Silk 6/29/2009 8:45:31 AM >>> Friends, an Arabist colleague writes to me as follows: I'm writing an encyclopaedia article about a Nubian tribe known as Barabra which lived along the Nile river in southern Egypt and the Sudan. Now I came across a reference that "Sanskrit historians write already about the Old Race of the Barabra living along the Upper Nile." Do you have any idea where I could find out what and when and who? I don't have any idea, but can anyone help? -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Tue Jul 7 08:35:33 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 09 09:35:33 +0100 Subject: cha In-Reply-To: <247730.44407.qm@web8608.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227086993.23782.7365247818402665887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Chandrabhal Tripathi writes about this symbol in his (excellent) introduction to his catalogue of Jain MSS in Strasbourg. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > In May?2008 some queries had been made on the letter ? occurring in manuscripts. No conclusion could be drawn. I do not know if the following report will help draw some conclusion. > The sign?? occurs in a so far unreported manuscript of the Atharvaveda (Vulgate) to indicate?a section within a long hymn, or a hymn within a long cluster of hymns (anuv?ka). In the?published commentary of S?ya.na the sections indicated by ? are understood as?hymns and?have been serially numbered by the commentator, so also in the the Paippal?da-Samhit?, but not in the existing editions of the Vulgate (confusingly by Roth-Whitney (1856) and not recognised by Whitney-Lanman(HOS VIII,?1905)?). ?? Best for all > DB > --- On Wed, 28/5/08, veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: > > > From: veeranarayana Pandurangi > Subject: Re: cha > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Wednesday, 28 May, 2008, 10:17 AM > > > Dear friends > I am seeing, for long,? this 'Cha'' in our own inherited collection of > dvaita and Nyaya manuscripts from North Karnataka and wondering what it > means. the answer, corraborated with other elder scholars, seems to be > simple. it is to indicate the end of section/text/chapter etc. It is a > common in manuscripts found in our region although it is not so common in > MSs found in sother regions like Tamilnadu or Kerala. > In the MS of Vyutpattivada, I am using for my critical edition at present > given to me by one of my friends from the same region, uses the Cha with > high freqency that every niranka patra (side of a leaf as it is called by > us) has nearly two three Chas to indicate the completion of debate on > particular subject. > thanks > veeranaraana > > On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 10:10 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard < > jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote: > >> Since nobody seems to have mentionned it, >> it might be useful to state here that >> in volume 1 of the >> "Catalogue of Jain Manuscripts of the British Library" >> (by Nalini Balbir, Kanhaiyalal V. Sheth, >> Kalpana K. Sheth and Candrabhal Bh. Tripathi) >> [The British Library & The Institute of Jainology, London, 2006] >> {ISBN 0 7123 4711 9} >> we find on p.16 (Abbreviations) the following mention: >> >> "[x]? the way to represent the cha, a symbol found at the end of >> manuscripts." >> >> I hope this is useful >> >> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Paris) >> >> >> Peter M. Scharf a ?crit : >> >> ? Dear Colleagues, >>> ? ? I would like to request your help in answering a question regarding how >>> to name or categorize a certain character in the Unicode Standard.? Many >>> Indic manuscripts use a decorative character that looks like a devanagari >>> cha without the horizontal bar to fill space between dandas or double dandas >>> at the end of manuscripts or between chapters of a manuscript.? (flower >>> shapes are often used similarly.)? Have any of you seen the "cha" pu.spikA >>> in manuscripts or publications of Buddhist, Jain, or other clearly non-Vedic >>> (in the broadest sense of the term) textual traditions?? If so, could you >>> provide a reference and or a digital image? >>> ? ? Thanks. >>> ? ? Peter >>> >>> >>> >>> ********************************************************* >>> Peter M. Scharf? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(401) 863-2720 office >>> Department of Classics? ? ? ? ? ???(401) 863-2123 dept. >>> Brown University >>> PO Box 1856? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(401) 863-7484 fax >>> Providence, RI 02912? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Scharf at brown.edu >>> http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/people/facultypage.php?id=10044 >>> http://sanskritlibrary.org/ >>> ********************************************************* >>> >>> > > > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Jul 7 04:38:26 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 09 10:08:26 +0530 Subject: cha Message-ID: <161227086990.23782.1083946557323702308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, In May?2008 some queries had been made on the letter ? occurring in manuscripts. No conclusion could be drawn. I do not know if the following report will help draw some conclusion. The sign?? occurs in a so far unreported manuscript of the Atharvaveda (Vulgate) to indicate?a section within a long hymn, or a hymn within a long cluster of hymns (anuv?ka). In the?published commentary of S?ya.na the sections indicated by ? are understood as?hymns and?have been serially numbered by the commentator, so also in the the Paippal?da-Samhit?, but not in the existing editions of the Vulgate (confusingly by Roth-Whitney (1856) and not recognised by Whitney-Lanman(HOS VIII,?1905)?).? Best for all DB --- On Wed, 28/5/08, veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: From: veeranarayana Pandurangi Subject: Re: cha To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 28 May, 2008, 10:17 AM Dear friends I am seeing, for long,? this 'Cha'' in our own inherited collection of dvaita and Nyaya manuscripts from North Karnataka and wondering what it means. the answer, corraborated with other elder scholars, seems to be simple. it is to indicate the end of section/text/chapter etc. It is a common in manuscripts found in our region although it is not so common in MSs found in sother regions like Tamilnadu or Kerala. In the MS of Vyutpattivada, I am using for my critical edition at present given to me by one of my friends from the same region, uses the Cha with high freqency that every niranka patra (side of a leaf as it is called by us) has nearly two three Chas to indicate the completion of debate on particular subject. thanks veeranaraana On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 10:10 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard < jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote: > Since nobody seems to have mentionned it, > it might be useful to state here that > in volume 1 of the > "Catalogue of Jain Manuscripts of the British Library" > (by Nalini Balbir, Kanhaiyalal V. Sheth, > Kalpana K. Sheth and Candrabhal Bh. Tripathi) > [The British Library & The Institute of Jainology, London, 2006] > {ISBN 0 7123 4711 9} > we find on p.16 (Abbreviations) the following mention: > > "[x]? the way to represent the cha, a symbol found at the end of > manuscripts." > > I hope this is useful > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Paris) > > > Peter M. Scharf a ?crit : > >? Dear Colleagues, >>? ? I would like to request your help in answering a question regarding how >> to name or categorize a certain character in the Unicode Standard.? Many >> Indic manuscripts use a decorative character that looks like a devanagari >> cha without the horizontal bar to fill space between dandas or double dandas >> at the end of manuscripts or between chapters of a manuscript.? (flower >> shapes are often used similarly.)? Have any of you seen the "cha" pu.spikA >> in manuscripts or publications of Buddhist, Jain, or other clearly non-Vedic >> (in the broadest sense of the term) textual traditions?? If so, could you >> provide a reference and or a digital image? >>? ? Thanks. >>? ? Peter >> >> >> >> ********************************************************* >> Peter M. Scharf? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(401) 863-2720 office >> Department of Classics? ? ? ? ? ???(401) 863-2123 dept. >> Brown University >> PO Box 1856? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(401) 863-7484 fax >> Providence, RI 02912? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Scharf at brown.edu >> http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/people/facultypage.php?id=10044 >> http://sanskritlibrary.org/ >> ********************************************************* >> >> -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com From mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU Tue Jul 7 01:59:23 2009 From: mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 09 11:59:23 +1000 Subject: Student project: Trees and flowers of the Meghaduta Message-ID: <161227086985.23782.394375042347896549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends Ms Tomomi Sato, a Sanskrit student at the ANU, has created a wonderful website on the trees and flowers of the Meghaduta. For each item, she provides her own artwork, the relevant verse, an audio file with her own recitation, and translations into English and Japanese. I and delighted to invite you to view Tomomi's beautiful work. It is best viewed with Internet Explorer. It does not work with Firefox. To enable the sound files to play, you may have to disable ActiveX control. Tomomi's website is here: http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/meghaduta/ I'm sure Tomomi would be pleased to hear from you. If you would like to send her a message offlist, she can be reached at: u4238655 at anu.edu.au Please feel free to circulate as widely as possible among friends and colleagues. Yours McComas From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Jul 7 09:33:38 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 09 15:03:38 +0530 Subject: cha Message-ID: <161227086996.23782.17480940137693131582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, but this comes in a Vedic manuscript. Tripathi belonged to Gujarat, as far as I remember.?Our manuscript too belonged to that region. Is the sign of Gujarat-origin? In many such cases the Saaradaa ms of the AV has phasca. Is that?related??I do not know how far these questions have been dealt with. ? --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: Re: cha To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 2:05 PM Chandrabhal Tripathi writes about this symbol in his (excellent) introduction to his catalogue of Jain MSS in Strasbourg. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > In May?2008 some queries had been made on the letter ? occurring in manuscripts. No conclusion could be drawn. I do not know if the following report will help draw some conclusion. > The sign?? occurs in a so far unreported manuscript of the Atharvaveda (Vulgate) to indicate?a section within a long hymn, or a hymn within a long cluster of hymns (anuv?ka). In the?published commentary of S?ya.na the sections indicated by ? are understood as?hymns and?have been serially numbered by the commentator, so also in the the Paippal?da-Samhit?, but not in the existing editions of the Vulgate (confusingly by Roth-Whitney (1856) and not recognised by Whitney-Lanman(HOS VIII,?1905)?). ?? Best for all > DB > --- On Wed, 28/5/08, veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: > > > From: veeranarayana Pandurangi > Subject: Re: cha > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Wednesday, 28 May, 2008, 10:17 AM > > > Dear friends > I am seeing, for long,? this 'Cha'' in our own inherited collection of > dvaita and Nyaya manuscripts from North Karnataka and wondering what it > means. the answer, corraborated with other elder scholars, seems to be > simple. it is to indicate the end of section/text/chapter etc. It is a > common in manuscripts found in our region although it is not so common in > MSs found in sother regions like Tamilnadu or Kerala. > In the MS of Vyutpattivada, I am using for my critical edition at present > given to me by one of my friends from the same region, uses the Cha with > high freqency that every niranka patra (side of a leaf as it is called by > us) has nearly two three Chas to indicate the completion of debate on > particular subject. > thanks > veeranaraana > > On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 10:10 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard < > jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote: > >> Since nobody seems to have mentionned it, >> it might be useful to state here that >> in volume 1 of the >> "Catalogue of Jain Manuscripts of the British Library" >> (by Nalini Balbir, Kanhaiyalal V. Sheth, >> Kalpana K. Sheth and Candrabhal Bh. Tripathi) >> [The British Library & The Institute of Jainology, London, 2006] >> {ISBN 0 7123 4711 9} >> we find on p.16 (Abbreviations) the following mention: >> >> "[x]? the way to represent the cha, a symbol found at the end of >> manuscripts." >> >> I hope this is useful >> >> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Paris) >> >> >> Peter M. Scharf a ?crit : >> >> ? Dear Colleagues, >>> ? ? I would like to request your help in answering a question regarding how >>> to name or categorize a certain character in the Unicode Standard.? Many >>> Indic manuscripts use a decorative character that looks like a devanagari >>> cha without the horizontal bar to fill space between dandas or double dandas >>> at the end of manuscripts or between chapters of a manuscript.? (flower >>> shapes are often used similarly.)? Have any of you seen the "cha" pu.spikA >>> in manuscripts or publications of Buddhist, Jain, or other clearly non-Vedic >>> (in the broadest sense of the term) textual traditions?? If so, could you >>> provide a reference and or a digital image? >>> ? ? Thanks. >>> ? ? Peter >>> >>> >>> >>> ********************************************************* >>> Peter M. Scharf? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(401) 863-2720 office >>> Department of Classics? ? ? ? ? ???(401) 863-2123 dept. >>> Brown University >>> PO Box 1856? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(401) 863-7484 fax >>> Providence, RI 02912? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Scharf at brown.edu >>> http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/people/facultypage.php?id=10044 >>> http://sanskritlibrary.org/ >>> ********************************************************* >>> >>> > > > Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com From onians at GOOGLEMAIL.COM Tue Jul 7 19:16:12 2009 From: onians at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (onians at GOOGLEMAIL.COM) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 09 20:16:12 +0100 Subject: Aditya Behl on the Clay Sanskrit Library In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086998.23782.3781473100715759075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to enquiries about the destiny of CSL printed volumes: Yes, the books are still very much on sale from NYUP and their affiliates (http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/order.php), as will be the 9 volumes (including 2 reprints) to appear this summer (http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volumes.php?show=12). >All-- > >How terribly unfortunate for Indologists and general readers alike! These >volumes are so useful. I had planned to order one as a course-text for a >class I'm teaching in the fall, so I hope it's still available. Will the >press continue to print and sell the final 56 volumes indefinitely? > >Tracy Coleman >Colorado College > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Indology on behalf of isabelle onians >Sent: Fri 7/3/2009 5:11 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Re: Aditya Behl on the Clay Sanskrit Library > >Dear Colleagues, > >The TLS review of the CSL is available on the press page of our CSL >website: >http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/press.php. > >Aditya Behl's piece ( >http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/press/CSL_TLSReview_200906.php) does >not >actually say that the series is being discontinued because of poor sales, >although one can see how that inference might have been drawn from his >adjacent mention of the quarrel between Lakshmi and Sarasvati. > >The series has indeed now been closed down, as of June 30 just gone, >although we are still sending a last clutch of new titles to press to >appear >on bookshelves in September ( >http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volumes.php?show=12). > >The final list will comprise 56 volumes: >http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volumes_current.php. > >Yours truly, > >Isabelle >(Onians) From dmagier at PRINCETON.EDU Wed Jul 8 19:36:28 2009 From: dmagier at PRINCETON.EDU (David Magier) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 09 15:36:28 -0400 Subject: New position: South Asia Librarian Message-ID: <161227087002.23782.14093794013332955693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear INDOLOGY colleagues, I hope your summer is going well. I am writing to give you the good news that after much demand from faculty and students at Princeton, we have an approved position (4-year full-time term appointment) for a South Asia Librarian at Princeton, who will also be teaching one undergraduate course per year. You will note from the posting below that the position requires a PhD in a relevant field, but does not require a library background (though that would certainly be preferred). If you know of any up-and-coming scholars, recent graduates, etc. who might be interested in and appropriate for this position, please pass this posting along to them and encourage them to apply. PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD. Many thanks and regards, David ----------------------- David Magier, PhD Associate University Librarian for Collection Development Princeton University Firestone Library One Washington Road Princeton, NJ 08544 609-258-5710 609-258-6950 fax dmagier at princeton.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- South Asia Librarian (4-year term appointment) Princeton University Library Princeton, NJ Requisition # 0900225 http://library.princeton.edu/hr/positions/JobSouthAsiaLibrarian2009.html The Princeton University Library comprises a large central library and a dozen specialized libraries that are heavily used by an academic community of 6,400 students, 1,100 faculty members, and many visiting scholars. To support the diverse needs of its users, the Library holds some six million printed volumes, ranging from incunabula to current imprints, and provides access to many other records of human knowledge, such as ancient papyri and cylinder seals, modern literary manuscripts, and recently produced electronic databases and journals. The Library employs more than 300 professional and support personnel, complemented by a large student and hourly workforce. Please consult the Library Web site at http://library.princeton.edu/ for more information. Available: Immediately Responsibilities: The Princeton University Library seeks an energetic and creative scholar for a 4-year term appointment as South Asia Librarian, to build library collections and help shape library services in the interdisciplinary field of South Asian Studies at Princeton. The South Asia Librarian will be responsible for identifying and acquiring library materials, in all formats, and from all parts of the world, in Western languages and select languages of this region, for the libraries' collections on the anthropology, art, architecture, demography and culture, economics, ethnography, folklore, government documents, history, international relations, language and literature, music, philosophy, politics, religion, sociology, and urban planning of South Asia (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Nepal, with primary focus on India). The librarian will also function as the key South Asia resource person in the Library system, with the necessary expertise to provide assistance to students and faculty in teaching, learning and researching any aspect of South Asian Studies. In addition, this specialist will work closely with the Princeton Institute for International and Regional Studies, and the Program in South Asian Studies, to teach one course per year on South Asia in an appropriate discipline. The specialist will also hold an appointment as a lecturer during the semesters they teach. The appointment and course offering are subject to the approval of the appropriate academic department and Dean of the Faculty. This is one of several subject specialist positions in the Library devoted to developing and interpreting Princeton?s collections. Responsibilities include: collection building; managing sizable acquisitions funds; providing advice on priorities for preservation, digitization, and other aspects of collection maintenance, including offsite storage; giving direct specialized research assistance to faculty and students; creating resource guides and Web sites to assist researchers; serving as the Library's key liaison to the Program in South Asian Studies; and consulting with members of the Technical Services Department to facilitate acquisitions and cataloging of materials from and about South Asia (including some in South Asian languages). This librarian represents Princeton in the relevant regional, national, and international professional and scholarly organizations. Qualifications: Required: a PhD in an appropriate discipline in South Asian Studies; broad familiarity with interdisciplinary teaching and research on South Asia; proficiency in Hindi or Urdu and at least basic ability to read the Devanagari script; familiarity with core print and online library resources for South Asian Studies; familiarity with current publishing from and about South Asia. Preferred: An ALA-accredited Master?s degree in library science; professional experience in a research library, preferably including collection development and/or cataloging of South Asian materials; mastery of major bibliographic tools, including electronic resources, available for the use of researchers especially in the humanities; knowledge of the US, European and South Asian book trade and the changing technological environment in research libraries; successful teaching experience, either in the classroom or in library instruction; knowledge of the strengths of other research collections on South Asia. Term and Appointment: This is a four year term position. The successful candidate will be appointed to a professional specialist rank depending upon qualifications and experience. Initial term is for one year with the possibility of renewal. Extensions beyond four years are possible. Compensation and Benefits: Compensation will be competitive and commensurate with experience. Twenty-four (24) vacation days a year, plus eleven (11) paid holidays. Annuity program (TIAA/CREF or Vanguard), group life insurance, health coverage insurance, disability insurance, and other benefits are available. Nominations and Applications: Review of applications will begin immediately and will continue until the position is filled. Nominations and applications (cover letter, resume and the names, titles, addresses and phone numbers of three references) will be accepted only from the Jobs at Princeton website: http://www.princeton.edu/jobs Princeton University is an equal opportunity employer and complies with applicable EEO and affirmative action regulations. For information about applying to Princeton and voluntarily self- identifying, please link to http://www.princeton.edu/dof/about_us/dof_job_openings/ From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Jul 11 14:09:17 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 09 07:09:17 -0700 Subject: On the origin of the aaryaa meter (Re: Choice of meter for writing a treatise: s'loka vs. aaryaa In-Reply-To: <4A587220.8090101@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227087010.23782.10707027283589433943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> K. R. Norman believed that the clear resemblance of Arya to an old Tamil meter called veNpaa, something I described in my book, was illusory and that there was no Tamil influence in its development. See http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Textual-Studies/Prosody-Articles/Norman-Arya.htm I think Prof. Norman's discussion is a bit unfair to me, as I did not claim there was Tamil influence, but rather that the Tamil works use meters that must be very old in Dravidian and that Arya probably developed under the influence of such meters, though almost certainly not in Tamil Nadu. One can suppose that old Dravidian meters were used in oral literature in villages that spoke or had spoken Dravidian languages and that Arya and other matra meters developed from them. While we have a good idea of meters and poetic technique in old Tamil -- and they are almost frighteningly complex -- no one to my knowledge has looked at other Dravidian languages including some of the "tribal" languages of the north and given us a picture of use of meter in all such traditions. In any event, if one is interested in the development of Arya and similar meters, it is very much worthwhile to look at old Tamil, as the resemblance between veNpaa and arya is remarkable. George Hart On Jul 11, 2009, at 4:06 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > I have received two reactions to that message of mine (dated 2009 > may 31) [see below]. > > In one of the 2 messages, I was asked whether I had received an answer > and I answered back that it had probably not been realistic on my > part > to expect that someone might explain > the "why-did-it-happen?" side of my question :-) > > Usually, > the more reasonable task to set to oneself > is simply to collect the data > [the "what-happened?" side] > and to do some statistics. > > However, the second message contained some very useful information. > > I am glad to discover, thanks to Whitney Cox, from SOAS, > that K.R. Norman has discussed the origin and the popularity of the > ?ry? meter > in a paper "The Origins of the ?ry? metre", > which is included as item 79 in his Collected Papers IV, > London: Pali Text Society, 1993, pp. 20-35 . > > That paper was originally published in /Buddhist Philosophy and > Culture: Essays in Honour of N.A.Jayawikrema/. > Columbo 1987, pp. 203-214.). > > Interestingly, K.R. Norman discusses some of the theses which George > Hart has put forward in his 1975 book, > /The Poems of Ancient Tamil: their milieu and their Sanskrit > counterpart/, University of California Press. > > I understand, by reading Norman's article, > and from Whitney's suggestions for further reading, > that I won't be able to progress in my global understanding of the > question > (i.e. "Meters in India and their popularity") > until I try to read A. K. Warder's 1967 book /Pali Metre/ > and a number of other books and articles. > > I hope this information will be useful to some. > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) > > > Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : >> Dear list members, >> >> being engaged in a study of the popularity of various meters in the >> Tamil speaking world, >> I would welcome informations on the reasons (or the background) >> for the choice of meter while writing a treatise in Sanskrit. >> >> Are there for instance >> articles/books examining, explaining or suggesting reasons why the >> V?kyapad?ya was composed in ?loka-s >> whereas the S??khyak?rik? was composed in ?ry?? >> (I hope I am not mistaken) >> >> Is this simply a consequence of the date of their compositions? >> >> Thanks for any pointers >> >> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >> From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Sat Jul 11 10:47:54 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 09 11:47:54 +0100 Subject: New translation of Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga by Antonella Comba Message-ID: <161227087005.23782.15970964847323807620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to draw your attention to a new tr. into Italian of the Visuddhimagga, by Dott. Comba. Volume one is published and on sale here: http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/visuddhimagga/3441942 The book certainly is available, pace Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Visuddhimagga-Italian-Buddhaghosa/dp/1409238342/) Dott. Comba is currently in Cambridge completing the second volume, which should be in print within a year. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com From overbey at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Jul 11 15:59:01 2009 From: overbey at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Ryan Richard Overbey) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 09 11:59:01 -0400 Subject: Spreading cow dung under trees Message-ID: <161227087015.23782.11235697897256883428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear esteemed colleagues, As I work on my dissertation on, the Great Lamp of the Dharma Dh?ra?? Scripture (T1340, extant only in sixth-century Chinese translation) I have run across an interesting passage about preachers (*dharmabh??aka) who preach in nice parks and groves with plenty of trees. The passage, found around T1340, v. 21, p. 754b for those who have access to Chinese, could be very roughly translated as follows: "they will spread on the ground under the trees a lump of cow dung, and having thus decorated them, they then ask the *dharmabh??aka to preach. When that *dharmabh??aka preaches the dharma, then in that grove there will be grove-protectors: sky-spirits, earth-spirits, tree- spirits, and other minor deities, and all the classes of beings including gandharvas, kinnaras, garu?as, mahoragas, n?gas, and yak?as. ... They will praise the people who decorated, for because they spread cow dung under the trees, they will be able to remember and guard and never forget, and they will circumambulate those trees as if they were worshipping st?pas." I am interested in this passage for various reasons-- domestication of the landscape and its assorted numena, the transformation of trees into st?pas, etc. But I must admit my ignorance about the South Asian background for the finer details of this episode. Does anyone know of any instances where trees are transformed into st?pas or other types of shrines via the application of cow dung? I know plenty of examples of cow dung as a general material for consecrating ritual space, as in so-called "prototantric" Buddhist texts like the Mah?m?y?r?vidy?r?j??, where ritual arenas are set up by clearing the ground, drawing a circle, and applying cow dung. And I know about the general value of cow dung for quotidian uses, such as fuel for fires or for washing floors. But I know very little about cow dung being used to mark a place or object as a permanent site of worship for the local numena. The text specifies that even after the dharmabh??aka leaves, the local spirits will guard the grove faithfully. It may be that the episode simply refers to the well-known potency of cow dung for purifying a space, but I would love to know if anything more specific may be found. I would be most grateful for any insights or analogues you may have! All best, Ryan Overbey Ph.D. candidate, Committee on the Study of Religion Harvard University overbey at fas.harvard.edu From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Sat Jul 11 16:28:44 2009 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 09 12:28:44 -0400 Subject: Spreading cow dung under trees In-Reply-To: <17614669-246B-4368-87C8-13CFDD9707B1@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <161227087018.23782.165208222464746912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ryan, To the present day in Sanskrit Buddhism (as practiced in nepal) a place to be demarcated as sacred is "purified" by spreading a thin layer of mud mixed with cow dung over it. It is a simple but deeply rooted ritual that I have never really investigated but I know it to be a necessary preliminary for any major ceremony. Once accomplished every one must remove their shoes when entering the sacred space. In one case, the officiants at a puja did the entire floor of a big room in an upper story of a Bahal (Vihara) as the intent was to make the room the interior of the mandala palace in Akanishta Paradise. I am sure I have numerous photographs of this if you would like to see some. The initiation that was going to take place was to the Dharmdhatu Vagishvara Manjughosha. I hope this is useful for you John John C. Huntington, Professor (Buddhist Art and Methodologies) Department of the History of Art The Ohio State University Columbus, OH, U.S.A. On Jul 11, 2009, at 11:59 AM, Ryan Richard Overbey wrote: > Dear esteemed colleagues, > > As I work on my dissertation on, the Great Lamp of the Dharma > Dh?ra?? Scripture (T1340, extant only in sixth-century Chinese > translation) I have run across an interesting passage about > preachers (*dharmabh??aka) who preach in nice parks and groves > with plenty of trees. The passage, found around T1340, v. 21, p. > 754b for those who have access to Chinese, could be very roughly > translated as follows: > > "they will spread on the ground under the trees a lump of cow dung, > and having thus decorated them, they then ask the *dharmabh??aka > to preach. When that *dharmabh??aka preaches the dharma, then in > that grove there will be grove-protectors: sky-spirits, earth- > spirits, tree-spirits, and other minor deities, and all the classes > of beings including gandharvas, kinnaras, garu?as, mahoragas, > n?gas, and yak?as. ... They will praise the people who decorated, > for because they spread cow dung under the trees, they will be able > to remember and guard and never forget, and they will circumambulate > those trees as if they were worshipping st?pas." > > I am interested in this passage for various reasons-- domestication > of the landscape and its assorted numena, the transformation of > trees into st?pas, etc. > > But I must admit my ignorance about the South Asian background for > the finer details of this episode. Does anyone know of any instances > where trees are transformed into st?pas or other types of shrines > via the application of cow dung? > > I know plenty of examples of cow dung as a general material for > consecrating ritual space, as in so-called "prototantric" Buddhist > texts like the Mah?m?y?r?vidy?r?j??, where ritual arenas are > set up by clearing the ground, drawing a circle, and applying cow > dung. And I know about the general value of cow dung for quotidian > uses, such as fuel for fires or for washing floors. > > But I know very little about cow dung being used to mark a place or > object as a permanent site of worship for the local numena. The text > specifies that even after the dharmabh??aka leaves, the local > spirits will guard the grove faithfully. > > It may be that the episode simply refers to the well-known potency > of cow dung for purifying a space, but I would love to know if > anything more specific may be found. I would be most grateful for > any insights or analogues you may have! > > All best, > Ryan Overbey > Ph.D. candidate, Committee on the Study of Religion > Harvard University > overbey at fas.harvard.edu > > -- > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 907517766) is spam: > Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=907517766&m=73cb902d3bd7 > Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=907517766&m=73cb902d3bd7 > Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=907517766&m=73cb902d3bd7 > ------------------------------------------------------ > END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Sat Jul 11 11:06:08 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 09 13:06:08 +0200 Subject: On the origin of the aaryaa meter (Re: Choice of meter for writing a treatise: s'loka vs. aaryaa In-Reply-To: <4A226CCA.7070304@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227087008.23782.6684047523174227375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have received two reactions to that message of mine (dated 2009 may 31) [see below]. In one of the 2 messages, I was asked whether I had received an answer and I answered back that it had probably not been realistic on my part to expect that someone might explain the "why-did-it-happen?" side of my question :-) Usually, the more reasonable task to set to oneself is simply to collect the data [the "what-happened?" side] and to do some statistics. However, the second message contained some very useful information. I am glad to discover, thanks to Whitney Cox, from SOAS, that K.R. Norman has discussed the origin and the popularity of the ?ry? meter in a paper "The Origins of the ?ry? metre", which is included as item 79 in his Collected Papers IV, London: Pali Text Society, 1993, pp. 20-35 . That paper was originally published in /Buddhist Philosophy and Culture: Essays in Honour of N.A.Jayawikrema/. Columbo 1987, pp. 203-214.). Interestingly, K.R. Norman discusses some of the theses which George Hart has put forward in his 1975 book, /The Poems of Ancient Tamil: their milieu and their Sanskrit counterpart/, University of California Press. I understand, by reading Norman's article, and from Whitney's suggestions for further reading, that I won't be able to progress in my global understanding of the question (i.e. "Meters in India and their popularity") until I try to read A. K. Warder's 1967 book /Pali Metre/ and a number of other books and articles. I hope this information will be useful to some. -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : > Dear list members, > > being engaged in a study of the popularity of various meters in the > Tamil speaking world, > I would welcome informations on the reasons (or the background) > for the choice of meter while writing a treatise in Sanskrit. > > Are there for instance > articles/books examining, explaining or suggesting reasons why the > V?kyapad?ya was composed in ?loka-s > whereas the S??khyak?rik? was composed in ?ry?? > (I hope I am not mistaken) > > Is this simply a consequence of the date of their compositions? > > Thanks for any pointers > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) > From andrew.ollett at LING-PHIL.OX.AC.UK Sat Jul 11 14:27:27 2009 From: andrew.ollett at LING-PHIL.OX.AC.UK (Andrew Ollett) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 09 15:27:27 +0100 Subject: On the origin of the aaryaa meter (Re: Choice of meter for writing a treatise: s'loka vs. aaryaa In-Reply-To: <4A587220.8090101@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227087013.23782.10463646514229461911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> re: the use of ?ry?s in "scientific" literature, warder pointed out (in a footnote at the beginning of the ga?acchandas section, if i'm remembering correctly) that the ?ry? is extremely flexible and so can accomodate a lot of technical terms. the other abstract practical benefit is that it's longer than the ?loka. that, of course, doesn't explain *why* certain treatises were written in ?ry?s. alsdorf has written on the ?ry?s in buddhist and jain literature (the ?ry? stanzas of the uttarajjh?y?, wiesbaden 1966; die ?ry?-strophen des pali canons, wiesbaden 1968; itth?parinn? in IIJ 2 (1958): 249-270; and his appendix to the PTS's 2nd edition of the thera- and ther?g?th?s, 1966). it does seem from norman's article that he thinks the ?ry? was especially popular in certain times and places (mah?r???ra in first few centuries ce). i'm not sure what this means for the s??khyak?rik? or the b?hatsamhit?. if it was already "popular" (from erotic prakrit lyric or other genres) it might have seemed as viable as the ?loka for long technical treatises to certain people. according to alsdorf, some ?lokas even got corrupted into ?ry?s in the course of transmission---the opposite of what happens in, e.g., pali. re: george hart's recent response, "influence" is very hard to pin down. it does seem clear that the ?ry? is the final product of a long period of experimental composition in structurally similar verse-forms (cf. randle in the p.k. commemoration volume, pune 1960) in indo-aryan languages. but dravidian may have "influenced" ?ry?-type verses indirectly, by influencing the phonology (especially prosodic phonology) of the indo-aryan languages in which the earliest m?tr?-meters were composed. the other line of argumentation, not necessarily incompatible with this, is associated with jacobi in ZDMG 1884 590-619: the m?tr?-meters developed out of certain vedic meters by resolution, anaclasis, etc. andrew ollett (mphil student/oxford) On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard < jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote: > I have received two reactions to that message of mine (dated 2009 may 31) > [see below]. > > In one of the 2 messages, I was asked whether I had received an answer > and I answered back that it had probably not been realistic on my part > to expect that someone might explain > the "why-did-it-happen?" side of my question :-) > > Usually, > the more reasonable task to set to oneself > is simply to collect the data > [the "what-happened?" side] > and to do some statistics. > > However, the second message contained some very useful information. > > I am glad to discover, thanks to Whitney Cox, from SOAS, > that K.R. Norman has discussed the origin and the popularity of the ?ry? > meter > in a paper "The Origins of the ?ry? metre", > which is included as item 79 in his Collected Papers IV, > London: Pali Text Society, 1993, pp. 20-35 . > > That paper was originally published in /Buddhist Philosophy and Culture: > Essays in Honour of N.A.Jayawikrema/. > Columbo 1987, pp. 203-214.). > > Interestingly, K.R. Norman discusses some of the theses which George Hart > has put forward in his 1975 book, > /The Poems of Ancient Tamil: their milieu and their Sanskrit counterpart/, > University of California Press. > > I understand, by reading Norman's article, > and from Whitney's suggestions for further reading, > that I won't be able to progress in my global understanding of the question > (i.e. "Meters in India and their popularity") > until I try to read A. K. Warder's 1967 book /Pali Metre/ > and a number of other books and articles. > > I hope this information will be useful to some. > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) > > > Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : > >> Dear list members, >> >> being engaged in a study of the popularity of various meters in the Tamil >> speaking world, >> I would welcome informations on the reasons (or the background) >> for the choice of meter while writing a treatise in Sanskrit. >> >> Are there for instance >> articles/books examining, explaining or suggesting reasons why the >> V?kyapad?ya was composed in ?loka-s >> whereas the S??khyak?rik? was composed in ?ry?? >> (I hope I am not mistaken) >> >> Is this simply a consequence of the date of their compositions? >> >> Thanks for any pointers >> >> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >> >> From peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU Sun Jul 12 03:01:32 2009 From: peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU (Peter Friedlander) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 09 20:01:32 -0700 Subject: chAyA as translation? Message-ID: <161227087020.23782.13737844718121601837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am looking at the term chAyA which is used in Hindi to mean a translation which conveys the broad sense of an original, a kind?of transcreation. I seem to recall it can be used in this way in Sanskrit. I would be interested to know if I am I right and how long the term has been in use. regards Peter Friedlander --------------------------- Peter Friedlander 21 Hindhede Dr #04-04 Singapore, 589318 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail From j.jurewicz at UW.EDU.PL Sun Jul 12 03:02:50 2009 From: j.jurewicz at UW.EDU.PL (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 09 05:02:50 +0200 Subject: chAyA as translation? Message-ID: <161227087023.23782.7152333245196688104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To jest odpowied? wygenerowana automatycznie./This is an automated message Do 30 sierpnia b?d? mia?a ograniczony dost?p do internetu./ Until 30 August I will have limited access to the Internet. Joanna Jurewicz From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Sun Jul 12 10:07:53 2009 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 09 10:07:53 +0000 Subject: AW: Spreading cow dung under trees In-Reply-To: <17614669-246B-4368-87C8-13CFDD9707B1@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <161227087025.23782.6263823533974220687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "They will circumambulate those trees as ifthey were w Dear colleague, "They will circumambulate those trees as ifthey were worshipping stupas". This means that trees do not become stupas but are circumambulated as if they were stupas, i.e. by circumambulation. As you probably know stupas contain the beam of a tree (the yasti) as a central element. In Japan these beams (shinbashira) are a visible element of pagodas and stupas. Does this help you? Best, Axel Michaels ------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels Acting Director of the Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context" Heidelberg University, South Asia Institute Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 D-69120 Heidelberg Tel. +49-6221-548917 / Fax +49-6221-546338 http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/index.html http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/ Axel.Michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de ________________________________ Von: Ryan Richard Overbey An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Gesendet: Samstag, den 11. Juli 2009, 17:59:01 Uhr Betreff: Spreading cow dung under trees Dear esteemed colleagues, As I work on my dissertation on, the Great Lamp of the Dharma Dh?ra?? Scripture (T1340, extant only in sixth-century Chinese translation) I have run across an interesting passage about preachers (*dharmabh??aka) who preach in nice parks and groves with plenty of trees. The passage, found around T1340, v. 21, p. 754b for those who have access to Chinese, could be very roughly translated as follows: "they will spread on the ground under the trees a lump of cow dung, and having thus decorated them, they then ask the *dharmabh??aka to preach. When that *dharmabh??aka preaches the dharma, then in that grove there will be grove-protectors: sky-spirits, earth-spirits, tree-spirits, and other minor deities, and all the classes of beings including gandharvas, kinnaras, garu?as, mahoragas, n?gas, and yak?as. ... They will praise the people who decorated, for because they spread cow dung under the trees, they will be able to remember and guard and never forget, and they will circumambulate those trees as if they were worshipping st?pas." I am interested in this passage for various reasons-- domestication of the landscape and its assorted numena, the transformation of trees into st?pas, etc. But I must admit my ignorance about the South Asian background for the finer details of this episode. Does anyone know of any instances where trees are transformed into st?pas or other types of shrines via the application of cow dung? I know plenty of examples of cow dung as a general material for consecrating ritual space, as in so-called "prototantric" Buddhist texts like the Mah?m?y?r?vidy?r?j??, where ritual arenas are set up by clearing the ground, drawing a circle, and applying cow dung. And I know about the general value of cow dung for quotidian uses, such as fuel for fires or for washing floors. But I know very little about cow dung being used to mark a place or object as a permanent site of worship for the local numena. The text specifies that even after the dharmabh??aka leaves, the local spirits will guard the grove faithfully. It may be that the episode simply refers to the well-known potency of cow dung for purifying a space, but I would love to know if anything more specific may be found. I would be most grateful for any insights or analogues you may have! All best, Ryan Overbey Ph.D. candidate, Committee on the Study of Religion Harvard University overbey at fas.harvard.edu From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Sun Jul 12 22:41:05 2009 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 09 18:41:05 -0400 Subject: AW: Spreading cow dung under trees In-Reply-To: <400284.73203.qm@web27301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227087028.23782.440302198035690626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ryan, What Axel says is very true. However in the Indic world, trees also have their own special sacral significance from at least as early as the fourth millennium BCE (Kot Diji pottery with bodhi leaves on it) and very clear tree chaityas (probably not called that) including platforms or fences on Indus Civilization seals and sealings. Tree shrines in and of themselves, exist in every part of India I have been to and commonly relate to Buddha, Shiva, Vishnu, and Durga/Kali along with a endless varieties of Yaksha/is and the like. Trees as Stupa analogue seems fairly obvious since both fall into the greater generic category of "chaitya." Which can also be any of a number of appointed or appropriated objects of some sort of presumed potency. John On Jul 12, 2009, at 6:07 AM, Axel Michaels wrote: > "They will circumambulate those trees as ifthey were w > Dear colleague, > > "They will circumambulate those trees as ifthey were worshipping > stupas". This means that trees do not become stupas but are > circumambulated as if they were stupas, i.e. by circumambulation. As > you probably know stupas contain the beam of a tree (the yasti) as a > central element. In Japan these beams (shinbashira) are a visible > element of pagodas and stupas. Does this help you? > > Best, > Axel Michaels > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Mon Jul 13 10:07:14 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (Victor van Bijlert) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 09 12:07:14 +0200 Subject: Hindi poetry on the web? Message-ID: <161227087031.23782.8615743601526453547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know of websites that display collections of poetry in Hindi by modern Hindi poets such as the Chayavad and the Nayi Kavita? Such online libraries do exist for example for English poetry: one can find Eliot, Shakespeare, Milton, Keats etc online. I am wondering if such sites also exist for Hindi poets of fame? Thanks for possible feedback. Victor van Bijlert From d.plukker at INTER.NL.NET Mon Jul 13 10:30:56 2009 From: d.plukker at INTER.NL.NET (Dick Plukker) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 09 12:30:56 +0200 Subject: Hindi poetry on the web? In-Reply-To: <000001ca03a1$b22779f0$16766dd0$@nl> Message-ID: <161227087034.23782.10926801745772829436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See e.g.: http://www.anubhuti-hindi.org/ and then http://www.anubhuti-hindi.org/kavi.htm; http://www.kavitakosh.org/ Dick Plukker Amsterdam Victor van Bijlert schreef, op 13-7-2009 12:07: > Does anyone know of websites that display collections of poetry in Hindi by > modern Hindi poets such as the Chayavad and the Nayi Kavita? Such online > libraries do exist for example for English poetry: one can find Eliot, > Shakespeare, Milton, Keats etc online. I am wondering if such sites also > exist for Hindi poets of fame? > > Thanks for possible feedback. > > Victor van Bijlert > > > > > > From klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Mon Jul 13 11:02:34 2009 From: klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 09 14:02:34 +0300 Subject: Hindi poetry on the web? In-Reply-To: <4A5B0CE0.1020906@inter.nl.net> Message-ID: <161227087037.23782.15326695243588083623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hei! N?m? ehk? kiinnostavat. T. Klaus On Jul 13, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Dick Plukker wrote: > See e.g.: > > http://www.anubhuti-hindi.org/ and then http://www.anubhuti- > hindi.org/kavi.htm; > > http://www.kavitakosh.org/ > > Dick Plukker > Amsterdam > > > Victor van Bijlert schreef, op 13-7-2009 12:07: >> Does anyone know of websites that display collections of poetry in >> Hindi by >> modern Hindi poets such as the Chayavad and the Nayi Kavita? Such >> online >> libraries do exist for example for English poetry: one can find >> Eliot, >> Shakespeare, Milton, Keats etc online. I am wondering if such >> sites also >> exist for Hindi poets of fame? >> >> Thanks for possible feedback. >> >> Victor van Bijlert >> >> >> >> >> > From klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Mon Jul 13 11:08:41 2009 From: klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 09 14:08:41 +0300 Subject: Fwd: Hindi poetry on the web? Message-ID: <161227087039.23782.9660954728980434265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, this was not meant for the list, but to a friend who is not on the list. Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D. Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Institute for Asian and African Studies PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 Email Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi Begin forwarded message: > From: Klaus Karttunen > Date: July 13, 2009 2:02:34 PM GMT+03:00 > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Hindi poetry on the web? > Reply-To: Indology > > Hei! > N?m? ehk? kiinnostavat. > T. Klaus > > On Jul 13, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Dick Plukker wrote: > >> See e.g.: >> >> http://www.anubhuti-hindi.org/ and then http://www.anubhuti- >> hindi.org/kavi.htm; >> >> http://www.kavitakosh.org/ >> >> Dick Plukker >> Amsterdam >> >> >> Victor van Bijlert schreef, op 13-7-2009 12:07: >>> Does anyone know of websites that display collections of poetry >>> in Hindi by >>> modern Hindi poets such as the Chayavad and the Nayi Kavita? Such >>> online >>> libraries do exist for example for English poetry: one can find >>> Eliot, >>> Shakespeare, Milton, Keats etc online. I am wondering if such >>> sites also >>> exist for Hindi poets of fame? >>> >>> Thanks for possible feedback. >>> >>> Victor van Bijlert >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Jul 13 19:42:49 2009 From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhatt) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 09 15:42:49 -0400 Subject: Hindi poetry on the web? In-Reply-To: <000001ca03a1$b22779f0$16766dd0$@nl> Message-ID: <161227087042.23782.14274464346285169534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Victor, Try the following: http://www.manaskriti.com/kaavyaalaya/ http://hindipoetry.wordpress.com/ http://www.kavitakosh.org/ and you may also find some information at: http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/hindiint.html Thanks, Bindu Victor van Bijlert wrote: > Does anyone know of websites that display collections of poetry in Hindi by > modern Hindi poets such as the Chayavad and the Nayi Kavita? Such online > libraries do exist for example for English poetry: one can find Eliot, > Shakespeare, Milton, Keats etc online. I am wondering if such sites also > exist for Hindi poets of fame? > > Thanks for possible feedback. > > Victor van Bijlert > > > > From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Tue Jul 14 00:38:03 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 09 17:38:03 -0700 Subject: Books about Narada In-Reply-To: <2CEB73D6-A21E-4EC7-9C70-A439BD0FBDF7@helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <161227087044.23782.11572932227814068898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a friend who wants to write about Narada (Naradamuni, the mythological figure) -- does anyone know of any books in English, Tamil or Telugu on this subject? He is particularly interested in stories, anecdotes and the like. Thanks. George Hart From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Tue Jul 14 08:45:20 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 09 10:45:20 +0200 Subject: Books about Narada In-Reply-To: <58B16CF8-B283-4E4F-AF2F-622B88E373B0@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087047.23782.6728504274932430924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Tales of Narada" , the volume no. 520 of the comics series Amar Chitra Katha, gives a popular view of three stories about the sage ("based on the Shiva Purana and some popular legends"). with best wishes, Christophe Vielle >I have a friend who wants to write about Narada (Naradamuni, the >mythological figure) -- does anyone know of any books in English, >Tamil or Telugu on this subject? He is particularly interested in >stories, anecdotes and the like. Thanks. George Hart -- http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Jul 14 16:02:50 2009 From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhatt) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 09 12:02:50 -0400 Subject: Hindi poetry In-Reply-To: <000001ca047d$86026f10$92074d30$@nl> Message-ID: <161227087057.23782.17771048107885584357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.geeta-kavita.com/indian_poetry_list.asp This site has a good collection of poems of poets like Mahdevi Varma and Dinkar You may want to search and Google Books , Internet Archive and Digital Library of India A quick search didn't get me anything written by Mohan Rakesh that is digitized. Thanks, Bindu Victor van Bijlert wrote: > I would like to thank all who have given me input. Actually I could find > online the Hindi original of a poem by Srikant Verma, Bhatka Megh. I am > wondering if plays of Mohan Rakesh are also available in Hindi on the web. > > Again thanks a million > > Victor van Bijlert > > > > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Tue Jul 14 12:05:24 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (Victor van Bijlert) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 09 14:05:24 +0200 Subject: Books about Narada In-Reply-To: <58B16CF8-B283-4E4F-AF2F-622B88E373B0@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087050.23782.8741326351503965195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I had to review the following book: Loving God: Krishna and Christ: A Christian Commentary on the Narada Sutras, by Daniel Sheridan, Leuven: Peeters and Dudley MA: W.B.Eerdmans, 2007, ISBN 9789042919778 and ISBN 9780802862822. This book contains an annotated translation of the Narada Bhakti Sutras, a medieval Sutra text on the practice and the theology of Bhakti, a text attributed to Narada Muni. There are, as far as I remember, episodes in the Bhagavata Purana and the Vishnu Purana on Narada. One can consult also Wendy Doniger (o'Flaherty) 'Hindu Myths' Penguin Classic, which has episodes with narratives on Narada or in which Narada figures. Victor van Bijlert -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of George Hart Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 2:38 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Books about Narada I have a friend who wants to write about Narada (Naradamuni, the mythological figure) -- does anyone know of any books in English, Tamil or Telugu on this subject? He is particularly interested in stories, anecdotes and the like. Thanks. George Hart From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Tue Jul 14 12:20:49 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (Victor van Bijlert) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 09 14:20:49 +0200 Subject: Hindi poetry Message-ID: <161227087055.23782.2389845926499928970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank all who have given me input. Actually I could find online the Hindi original of a poem by Srikant Verma, Bhatka Megh. I am wondering if plays of Mohan Rakesh are also available in Hindi on the web. Again thanks a million Victor van Bijlert From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Jul 14 12:07:28 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 09 17:37:28 +0530 Subject: Books about Narada In-Reply-To: <58B16CF8-B283-4E4F-AF2F-622B88E373B0@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087052.23782.11210676866936089183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr.Hart, For the occurrence of the Naarada stories in some of the Puraanas, namely the Bhaagavata-, Brahmaanda-, Matsya-,? Vaayu- and Vishnu-Puraana ?V.R.Ramachandra Dikshitar's The Puraana Index Vol.II Univ. Madras, 1952 is a good guide. Best wishes DB --- On Tue, 14/7/09, George Hart wrote: From: George Hart Subject: Books about Narada To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 14 July, 2009, 6:08 AM I have a friend who wants to write about Narada (Naradamuni, the mythological figure) -- does anyone know of any books in English, Tamil or Telugu on this subject?? He is particularly interested in stories, anecdotes and the like.? Thanks. George Hart Looking for local information? Find it on Yahoo! Local http://in.local.yahoo.com/ From fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Jul 15 14:37:27 2009 From: fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frances Pritchett) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 09 10:37:27 -0400 Subject: Hindi poetry In-Reply-To: <000001ca047d$86026f10$92074d30$@nl> Message-ID: <161227087062.23782.16445653999040167933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The general problem with these literary-text websites is that they don't give you SOURCES for the etext versions. So even if you find something on the internet that claims to be "the text" of a short story or poem, you'd be well advised to check it against the best printed text for accuracy. (The problem of finding the best printed text is of course another whole kettle of fish...) signed, the Voice of Experience Victor van Bijlert wrote: > I would like to thank all who have given me input. Actually I could find > online the Hindi original of a poem by Srikant Verma, Bhatka Megh. I am > wondering if plays of Mohan Rakesh are also available in Hindi on the web. > > Again thanks a million > > Victor van Bijlert > > > > From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Wed Jul 15 09:14:49 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 09 11:14:49 +0200 Subject: Obit: Ji Xianlin Message-ID: <161227087059.23782.16177373911620699229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I forward the following information sent to me by Prof Victor Mair: Ji Xianlin (???), a renowned linguist, historian, and translator, died on 11 July 2009 at the age of 98. Ji was a specialist in ancient Indian languages and Sino-Indian cultural exchange, and rendered major works, including the Ramayana, into Chinese from the original Sanskrit . Another great scholar of Indian religions (and former director of the National Library), Ren Jiyu, also passed away recently -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From mjslouber at BERKELEY.EDU Thu Jul 16 15:08:23 2009 From: mjslouber at BERKELEY.EDU (Michael Slouber) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 09 08:08:23 -0700 Subject: Saura Purana In-Reply-To: <20090716152624.47eiaxg1cs0csc4w@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227087068.23782.11651027132015737287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A typed Nagari version is available here: http://is1.mum.edu/vedicreserve/upapurana/saura_purana.pdf Michael Slouber PhD Candidate UC Berkeley On Jul 16, 2009, at 7:26 AM, J L Brockington wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > There is apparently no copy of the Saura Purana in any British > Library, although the ASS edition of 1889 has been reprinted several > times, I believe. Does anyone elsewhere have access to a copy of > this (or another edition) who would be prepared to send me a > photocopy or, better still, a scan of adhy. 30? If so, I should be > most grateful. > > John Brockington > > > Professor J. L. Brockington > Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies > Asian Studies > 7-8 Buccleuch Place > Edinburgh EH8 9LW > > home address: 3 Eskvale Court > Penicuik, Midlothian > EH26 8HT > U.K. > > -- > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK Thu Jul 16 14:26:24 2009 From: J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK (J L Brockington) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 09 15:26:24 +0100 Subject: Saura Purana Message-ID: <161227087065.23782.12088639005459023245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, There is apparently no copy of the Saura Purana in any British Library, although the ASS edition of 1889 has been reprinted several times, I believe. Does anyone elsewhere have access to a copy of this (or another edition) who would be prepared to send me a photocopy or, better still, a scan of adhy. 30? If so, I should be most grateful. John Brockington Professor J. L. Brockington Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies Asian Studies 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW home address: 3 Eskvale Court Penicuik, Midlothian EH26 8HT U.K. -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK Thu Jul 16 16:58:44 2009 From: J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK (J L Brockington) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 09 17:58:44 +0100 Subject: Saura Purana Message-ID: <161227087073.23782.6730138935368094988.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am pleased to say that I have now received PDF files of the required chapter from several of you, to whom I am most grateful. Yours John Brockington -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From Harunaga.Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Thu Jul 16 16:04:07 2009 From: Harunaga.Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 09 18:04:07 +0200 Subject: Manuscript Cultures Message-ID: <161227087071.23782.2634532705441178489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to draw the attention of list-members to a recent online publication: the first issue of Manuscript Cultures, available for download at http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/NL/NL-MC-No1.pdf . It is also possible to subscribe to Manuscript Cultures by filling in one's e-mail address at the bottom of http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/Publi.html . Manuscript Cultures is the newsletter of the Research Group Manuscript Cultures in Asia and Africa, at the Asien-Afrika-Institut, Hamburg University (financially supported by the Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft, DFG). On the activities of the Research Group see: http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/ http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html Harunaga Isaacson -- Prof. Dr. Harunaga Isaacson Universit?t Hamburg Asien-Afrika-Institut Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Edmund-Siemers-Allee 1 (Hauptgeb?ude) D-20146 Hamburg Germany From J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK Thu Jul 16 18:16:19 2009 From: J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK (J L Brockington) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 09 19:16:19 +0100 Subject: Saura Purana In-Reply-To: <982FF919-789C-4BC7-84F1-F7D2EC9973F3@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087075.23782.16011031791666359678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Michael, Thanks for the information. I will check it out. Yours John Brockington ----- Message from mjslouber at BERKELEY.EDU --------- Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 08:08:23 -0700 From: Michael Slouber Subject: Re: Saura Purana To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > A typed Nagari version is available here: > http://is1.mum.edu/vedicreserve/upapurana/saura_purana.pdf > > Michael Slouber > PhD Candidate > UC Berkeley > > > On Jul 16, 2009, at 7:26 AM, J L Brockington wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> There is apparently no copy of the Saura Purana in any British >> Library, although the ASS edition of 1889 has been reprinted >> several times, I believe. Does anyone elsewhere have access to a >> copy of this (or another edition) who would be prepared to send me >> a photocopy or, better still, a scan of adhy. 30? If so, I should >> be most grateful. >> >> John Brockington >> >> >> Professor J. L. Brockington >> Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies >> Asian Studies >> 7-8 Buccleuch Place >> Edinburgh EH8 9LW >> >> home address: 3 Eskvale Court >> Penicuik, Midlothian >> EH26 8HT >> U.K. ----- End message from mjslouber at BERKELEY.EDU ----- -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Jul 17 14:26:46 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 09 15:26:46 +0100 Subject: hre=?UTF-8?Q?=E1=B9=A3a=E1=B9=87=C4=ABya?= Message-ID: <161227087079.23782.7269663426405404840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---- Forwarded message from Dagmar Wujastyk ---- Dear INDOLOGY members, Has anyone come across the verb "hre?" - "to neigh" or "to whinny" in the sense of "to laugh"? I am reading a passage in the medical treatise A????gasa?graha (S?trasth?na 2.16) on correct professional conduct for a physician that reads hre?a??y?? ca tadv?rrt?? na prak??ayate bahi?| "He does not reveal any xxx news about him outside." Obviously, "to be neighed" does not fit the context. Any suggestions would be very welcome. I am not an INDOLOGY list member: kindly CC replies to me at With thanks, Dagmar From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Jul 17 14:42:23 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 09 15:42:23 +0100 Subject: hre=?UTF-8?Q?=E1=B9=A3a=E1=B9=87=C4=ABya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087084.23782.14451833889608986211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dagmar dixit: must be hrepa??y?? ... On Fri, 17 Jul 2009, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > ---- Forwarded message from Dagmar Wujastyk ---- > > Dear INDOLOGY members, > > Has anyone come across the verb "hre?" - "to neigh" or "to whinny" in the > sense of "to laugh"? > > I am reading a passage in the medical treatise A????gasa?graha (S?trasth?na > 2.16) on correct professional conduct for a physician that reads > > hre?a??y?? ca tadv?rrt?? na prak??ayate bahi?| > > "He does not reveal any xxx news about him outside." > > Obviously, "to be neighed" does not fit the context. > > Any suggestions would be very welcome. > > I am not an INDOLOGY list member: kindly CC replies to me at > > > With thanks, > Dagmar From mhgorisse at GMAIL.COM Fri Jul 17 14:20:57 2009 From: mhgorisse at GMAIL.COM (=?utf-8?Q?Marie-H=C3=A9l=C3=A8ne_Gorisse?=) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 09 16:20:57 +0200 Subject: The "patra" method in Jaina theories of knowledge and argumentation Message-ID: <161227087081.23782.11793435583943703520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indological list, First, I am looking for the text of Vidyananda's Patrapar?ksa. May anyone help me in this task? Secondly, have someone come accross any reference to the term "patra" in the Jaina theories of knowledge and argumentation? I did not find this expression anywhere besides in Prabh?candra's Prameyakamalam?rtanda and Anantav?rya's Prameyaratnam?l?. In both occurences, the "patra" method is introduced (in the same way as the naya method is) as an alternative to the pram?na method. These two occurrences are in Prabh?candra's and Anantav?rya's commentaries on the very last verse of the Par?ksamukham of M?nikyanand?, namely "sambhavad-anyad-vic?ran?yam", "something else which exists is to be investigated". Thank you very much for any help! Best regards, Marie-H?l?ne Gorisse PhD-student in Jaina theories of knowledge and argumentation Departement of Philosophy University of Lille 3, France http://stl.recherche.univ-lille3.fr/sitespersonnels/rahman/rahmanequipegorisse2006.html From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Fri Jul 17 14:57:26 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 09 16:57:26 +0200 Subject: hre=?UTF-8?Q?=E1=B9=A3a=E1=B9=87=C4=ABya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087087.23782.1742904687548337657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dagmar, piling a question on a question, I wonder whether what you describe might be linked with a question I asked on this same list in 2002 See I elicited a few answers, such as: (by Madhav Deshpande) (by Peter Scharf) It is possible that trying to describe what "laughing" is, in a phonetic/scientific perspective (without saying that it is "le propre de l'homme" :-) is as difficult as explaining "kh, g and gh" to a dravidian speaker (who knows only "k"), and requires references to animal cries I hope this is useful Best wishes -- Jean-Luc Chevillard Dominik Wujastyk a ?crit : > > ---- Forwarded message from Dagmar Wujastyk ---- > > Dear INDOLOGY members, > > Has anyone come across the verb "hre?" - "to neigh" or "to whinny" in > the sense of "to laugh"? > > I am reading a passage in the medical treatise A????gasa?graha > (S?trasth?na 2.16) on correct professional conduct for a physician > that reads > > hre?a??y?? ca tadv?rrt?? na prak??ayate bahi?| > > "He does not reveal any xxx news about him outside." > > Obviously, "to be neighed" does not fit the context. > > Any suggestions would be very welcome. > > I am not an INDOLOGY list member: kindly CC replies to me at > > > With thanks, > Dagmar From karin.preisendanz at UNIVIE.AC.AT Fri Jul 17 15:00:38 2009 From: karin.preisendanz at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Karin.Preisendanz) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 09 17:00:38 +0200 Subject: hre=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=A3a=E1=B9=87=C4=ABya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087089.23782.4686580634685500825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dagmar, I think the word simply means "that may cause him (namely, the patient) to be embarrassed" (from hrii, causative). Best regards, Karin On Fr, 17.07.2009, 16:26, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > ---- Forwarded message from Dagmar Wujastyk ---- > > Dear INDOLOGY members, > > Has anyone come across the verb "hre?" - "to neigh" or "to whinny" in the > sense of "to laugh"? > > I am reading a passage in the medical treatise A????gasa?graha > (S?trasth?na 2.16) on correct professional conduct for a physician that > reads > > hre?a??y?? ca tadv?rrt?? na prak??ayate bahi?| > > "He does not reveal any xxx news about him outside." > > Obviously, "to be neighed" does not fit the context. > > Any suggestions would be very welcome. > > I am not an INDOLOGY list member: kindly CC replies to me at > > > With thanks, > Dagmar -- Karin Preisendanz Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Wien ?sterreich From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jul 19 07:21:22 2009 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 09 00:21:22 -0700 Subject: Herodotus' gold-digging ants in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087095.23782.4617950464072868469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to Australian geoscientist Anna Petts, "local villagers in Africa are known to pan soil from termite mounds to recover gold nuggets up to 1 centimetre in size" (http://www.abc.net.au/science/ articles/2009/05/08/2562546.htm, see also http://www.afrol.com/ articles/10447). When I read this it occurred to me that Herodotus' famous story about giant ants in India that bring up gold when digging their mounds and tunnels might really refer to termites. I realize that Michel Peissel's suggestion that Herodotus' ants are marmots is widely accepted, and it is supported by reports that the Minaro on the Indo- Pak border used to sift sand from marmot mounds to get gold. However, termites seem a better fit in other respects. Their mounds are bigger, and certain termite species burrow as much as 30 meters into the ground to excavate building material. Herodotus says explicitly that these creatures "look like our ants". He says they are much bigger than ants though, and indeed, some termite species can reportedly be up to 20 cm long. (True, he compares them in size to a fox, which would fit the marmot better, but perhaps he is exaggerating). Also, Callimachus fr. 202 adds the information that the ants are winged, which is true of termites during the swarming season (June to August in Pakistan) Do you know of any references to termite mounds or anthills in Sanskrit literature that might shed light on this question? If there are modern survivals of this technique, they would most likely be found in remote parts of Pakistan. Paul From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Sun Jul 19 03:48:59 2009 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 09 15:48:59 +1200 Subject: SARIT UPDATE> Lariviere's Naradasmrti now available Message-ID: <161227087092.23782.16839182961391623789.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Lariviere's N?radasm?ti is now available through SARIT. The table of contents is here: http://bit.ly/1n88AN Downloads are in the usual formats, HTML, PDF & PostScript: http://bit.ly/YYga5 Bibliographic notes can be found here: http://bit.ly/kWBP5 The encoding and distribution of this text is possible due to the support of The British Association for South Asian Studies. If any readers would like to support the encoding of additional texts please feel free to approach us. Best regards, Richard Mahoney -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Sun Jul 19 21:57:01 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 09 17:57:01 -0400 Subject: Herodotus' gold-digging ants in India In-Reply-To: <988F5A4B-C946-4A89-A482-6B59B08CDBCA@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <161227087098.23782.2892689887612577853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Paul, There was some discussion of Herodotus's gold-digging ants on the Indology list in November 1996, largely in response to Peissel. If you search the list archives for peissel or gold eating ants or herodotus you will be able to find it. Perhaps it will be of use. Best wishes, George Thompson Paul Kiparsky wrote: > According to Australian geoscientist Anna Petts, "local villagers in > Africa are known to pan soil from termite mounds to recover gold > nuggets up to 1 centimetre in size" (http://www.abc.net.au/science/ > articles/2009/05/08/2562546.htm, see also http://www.afrol.com/ > articles/10447). > > When I read this it occurred to me that Herodotus' famous story about > giant ants in India that bring up gold when digging their mounds and > tunnels might really refer to termites. I realize that Michel > Peissel's suggestion that Herodotus' ants are marmots is widely > accepted, and it is supported by reports that the Minaro on the Indo- > Pak border used to sift sand from marmot mounds to get gold. > However, termites seem a better fit in other respects. Their mounds > are bigger, and certain termite species burrow as much as 30 meters > into the ground to excavate building material. Herodotus says > explicitly that these creatures "look like our ants". He says they > are much bigger than ants though, and indeed, some termite species > can reportedly be up to 20 cm long. (True, he compares them in size > to a fox, which would fit the marmot better, but perhaps he is > exaggerating). Also, Callimachus fr. 202 adds the information that > the ants are winged, which is true of termites during the swarming > season (June to August in Pakistan) > > Do you know of any references to termite mounds or anthills in > Sanskrit literature that might shed light on this question? If there > are modern survivals of this technique, they would most likely be > found in remote parts of Pakistan. > > Paul > From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Jul 20 18:29:33 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 09 14:29:33 -0400 Subject: Herodotus' gold-digging ants in India In-Reply-To: <988F5A4B-C946-4A89-A482-6B59B08CDBCA@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <161227087106.23782.12536062657901814564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think John Irwin discussed this in : The Sacred Anthill and the Cult of the Primordial Mound John C. Irwin History of Religions, Vol. 21, No. 4 (May, 1982), pp. 339-360 He may have mentioned it in other articles. I'll check my offprint file at home. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Jul 20 19:46:23 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 09 14:46:23 -0500 Subject: Herodotus' gold-digging ants in India In-Reply-To: <4A647F4D0200003A000614A2@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227087108.23782.4146080413770380379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I recall, Peissel's identification of the gold-digging ants with marmots in the West Tibetan regions now partially in HP, was based in part on his assumption that Herodotus's "city of Caspatyrum" could be identified with Tsaparang, the capital of the West Tibet Guge kingdom. But, phonological approximations aside, this was totally arbitrary and anachronistic. We have no evidence for urbanization on the Tibetan plateau in Herodotus's time (though there were neolithic villages), and the foundation of Tsaparang cannot be documented before the 10th century CE. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From himal.trikha at UNIVIE.AC.AT Mon Jul 20 14:43:28 2009 From: himal.trikha at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Himal Trikha) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 09 16:43:28 +0200 Subject: The "patra" method in Jaina theories of knowledge and argumentation In-Reply-To: <682e6ebc0907170720r3e1b6764g7d3bba0de19dbbe0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227087101.23782.17192966828951236672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Marie-Helene, the only edition of the PatraparIkSa I am aware of is the following: Vidy?nandasv?mi-viracit? ... ?ptapar?k?? Pat?ra?par?k?? ca Gaj?dha?ra?l??la??jai??na????stri?? samp?dite. (Sa?n?tanajainagrantham?l? 1). K??? 1913. I have a photocopy of this edition and could send you a scan in August. I did not read the work so far and therefore would be very much interested in your studies about the term patra. I don't know anything about the term except what can be found in secondary descriptions of VidyAnandins works where patra is referred to as a synonym of hetu. With best regards Himal --- Dr. Himal Trikha Institute for South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University Austria Marie-H?l?ne Gorisse schrieb: > Dear members of the Indological list, > > First, I am looking for the text of Vidyananda's Patrapar?ksa. May anyone > help me in this task? > > Secondly, have someone come accross any reference to the term "patra" in the > Jaina theories of knowledge and argumentation? > I did not find this expression anywhere besides in Prabh?candra's > Prameyakamalam?rtanda and Anantav?rya's Prameyaratnam?l?. In both > occurences, the "patra" method is introduced (in the same way as the naya > method is) as an alternative to the pram?na method. These two occurrences > are in Prabh?candra's and Anantav?rya's commentaries on the very last verse > of the Par?ksamukham of M?nikyanand?, namely "sambhavad-anyad-vic?ran?yam", > "something else which exists is to be investigated". > > Thank you very much for any help! > Best regards, > Marie-H?l?ne Gorisse > PhD-student in Jaina theories of knowledge and argumentation > Departement of Philosophy > University of Lille 3, France > http://stl.recherche.univ-lille3.fr/sitespersonnels/rahman/rahmanequipegorisse2006.html > From mhgorisse at GMAIL.COM Mon Jul 20 14:59:43 2009 From: mhgorisse at GMAIL.COM (=?utf-8?Q?Marie-H=C3=A9l=C3=A8ne_Gorisse?=) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 09 16:59:43 +0200 Subject: The "patra" method in Jaina theories of knowledge and argumentation In-Reply-To: <4A648290.3070601@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227087103.23782.17646457688766634193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Himal, Thank you very much for your offer! I will most certainly let you know about my studies on this term. Best regards, Marie-H?l?ne mhgorisse at gmail.com 2009/7/20 Himal Trikha > Dear Marie-Helene, > > the only edition of the PatraparIkSa I am aware of is the following: > > Vidy?nandasv?mi-viracit? ... ?ptapar?k?? Pat?ra?par?k?? ca > Gaj?dha?ra?l??la??jai??na????stri?? samp?dite. (Sa?n?tanajainagrantham?l? > 1). K??? 1913. > > I have a photocopy of this edition and could send you a scan in August. > > I did not read the work so far and therefore would be very much interested > in your studies about the term patra. I don't know anything about the term > except what can be found in secondary descriptions of VidyAnandins works > where patra is referred to as a synonym of hetu. > > With best regards > > Himal > > --- > Dr. Himal Trikha > Institute for South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies > Vienna University > Austria > > > Marie-H?l?ne Gorisse schrieb: > > Dear members of the Indological list, >> >> First, I am looking for the text of Vidyananda's Patrapar?ksa. May anyone >> help me in this task? >> >> Secondly, have someone come accross any reference to the term "patra" in >> the >> Jaina theories of knowledge and argumentation? >> I did not find this expression anywhere besides in Prabh?candra's >> Prameyakamalam?rtanda and Anantav?rya's Prameyaratnam?l?. In both >> occurences, the "patra" method is introduced (in the same way as the naya >> method is) as an alternative to the pram?na method. These two occurrences >> are in Prabh?candra's and Anantav?rya's commentaries on the very last >> verse >> of the Par?ksamukham of M?nikyanand?, namely >> "sambhavad-anyad-vic?ran?yam", >> "something else which exists is to be investigated". >> >> Thank you very much for any help! >> Best regards, >> Marie-H?l?ne Gorisse >> PhD-student in Jaina theories of knowledge and argumentation >> Departement of Philosophy >> University of Lille 3, France >> >> http://stl.recherche.univ-lille3.fr/sitespersonnels/rahman/rahmanequipegorisse2006.html >> >> From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Jul 21 11:30:15 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 09 07:30:15 -0400 Subject: Bhagavad Gita Translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087122.23782.11030719968724792811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, And what's wrong with the old Franklin Edgerton edition and translation? Available in most university libraries. Best Stella Sandahl On 21-Jul-09, at 6:19 AM, amba kulkarni wrote: > You may refer the students to http://www.gitasupersite.iitk.ac.in/ > > -- amba kulakrni > Reader and Head > Department of Sanskrit Studies > University of Hyderabad > 040 23133802(off) > > http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in > http://sanskrit.inria.fr/~anusaaraka > > 2009/7/21 Mary Storm > >> Dear Indologists, >> >> I am looking for an English translation of the Bhagavad Gita with >> commentary. Years ago I had one with Sanskrit, then >> transliteration, then >> English and commentary by Swami Chidbhavananda; it is no doubt out >> of print. >> >> This is for an introductory class for study abroad undergraduates. >> They are >> studying Hindi, so can read Devanagari, but it is rare to have a >> student who >> has had Sanskrit. I hope to find something with useful commentary, >> and a >> feeling for the poetics.... >> >> Any suggestions would be most welcome! >> >> Many Thanks, >> Mary >> >> >> Mary N. Storm, Ph.D. >> Academic Director and Lecturer >> India: National Identity and the Arts >> and >> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture >> SIT Study Abroad >> www.sit.edu >> >> F 301 Lado Sarai >> New Delhi 110013 >> >> Mobile +91 98106 98003 >> Office Landline +91 11 2437 8003 >> Residence Landline +91 11295 53298 >> > From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Tue Jul 21 05:14:08 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 09 10:44:08 +0530 Subject: Fwd: Demise of Pandit N.R. BHATT Message-ID: <161227087110.23782.3529811239702989156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Subject: Demise of Pandit N.R. BHATT > > Dear colleagues, > > We are sad to inform you that Pandit N.R. BHATT, aged 88, passed > away on July 19th 2009 at his residence in Mandavalli, Mylapore, > Chennai, at around 9 am. > > Dr. N.R. BHATT was born on July 24th 1920, in the State of > Karnataka. He studied Vyakarana Siromani at Venkateswar University > at Tirupati. > > Member of the EFEO and for many years in charge of indological > projects conducted at the French Institute of Pondichery, Dr. N.R. > BHATT was the principal collector of the manuscripts of the IFP. He > travelled throughout South India visiting monasteries, temples and > private collections, always searching in particular for Saiva > manuscripts, but often bringing back entire collections that > included also a great variety of other texts, which explains why the > library now contains so much besides Saiva material. In addition to > collecting old palm-leaf manuscripts, he had manuscripts of many > Shaiva works transcribed into Devanagari, in clearly legible > characters on uniform-sized pages. He thus constituted in > Pondicherry the largest collection of Shaivaiddhanta manuscripts in > the world, which was recognized by UNESCO as a ?Memory of the World? > collection in 2005. > > His numerous editions of Shaiva texts, co-published in the > Pondicherry series by the IFP and the EFEO, made him famous in > indological circles throughout the world. Of particular note is his > monumental two-volume edition of a major work of tenth-century > Kashmirian scholarship, the commentary of Ramakantha on the > Matangap?ramesvara. A felicitation volume honouring him for his > life's achievements appeared in 1994, but he continued to publish > thereafter, and collaborated (with Jean Filliozat and Pierre-Sylvain > Filliozat) in the production of one more important book, a five- > volume edition and English translation of the Ajitamah?tantra > (IGNCA, 2005). > > Dr. N.R. BHATT was a pioneer of the academic study of the Shaiva > traditions and his contribution to this field has been quite simply > enormous. > > His funeral service was held in Chennai yesterday, July 19th, at 12 > pm. > > > V. Marimoutou > Director of the French Institute of Pondicherry > > D. Goodall > Head of the Pondicherry Centre of the Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient > > From rpg at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Jul 21 19:25:49 2009 From: rpg at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert Goldman) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 09 12:25:49 -0700 Subject: Publication Announcement: In-Reply-To: <06C56BB7F1B14B31B1A93F04E9D7C214@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: <161227087131.23782.3527304698371352158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I should like to announce the publication of the following volume which may be of interest to Indologists. The Ramayana of Valmiki: An Epic of Ancient India: Volume VI: Yuddhakanda, Translation and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman, Sally J. Sutherland Goldman, and Barend A. van Nooten, Introduction by Robert P. Goldman and Sally J. Sutherland Goldman. Princeton Library of Asian Translations, Princeton University Press 2009. 1655 pp. ISBN 978-0-691-06663-9. $150. (http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8949.html) Best. Dr. R. P. Goldman Professor of Sanskrit Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 The University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 Tel: 510-642-4089 Fax: 510-642-2409 From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO Tue Jul 21 10:33:15 2009 From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 09 12:33:15 +0200 Subject: Bhagavad Gita Translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087119.23782.915960310658269829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mary Storm, I made a translation of the BG myself with good, clear Devanagari followed by a translation (see comments on Amazon.com by reviewers). No comments, as my American publisher wants to keep his editions compact. However, there are several commented editions of the Gita. Here are a few suggestions: My own translation at Amazon Britain: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bhagavad-Gita-Lars-Martin-Fosse/dp/0971646678/ref=sr _1_16?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248171367&sr=1-16 Or at Amazon USA: http://www.amazon.com/Bhagavad-Gita-Lars-Martin-Fosse/dp/0971646678/ref=sr_1 _1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248171589&sr=1-1 Others: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bhagavad-gita-Harvard-Paperback-F-Edgerton/dp/067406 9250/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248171407&sr=1-3 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0873958306/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk http://www.amazon.com/Bhagavad-Gita-Commentary-Sri-Sankaracharya/dp/81852080 85/ref=sr_1_37?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248171872&sr=1-37 Both Laurie Patton and George Thompson have delivered good, modern translations of the Gita, but without the Sanskrit text. You can look them up at Amazon. Editions with romanized Sanskrit and commentary: http://www.amazon.com/Bhagavad-Gita-Commentary-Based-Original-Sources/dp/019 8265220/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248172162&sr=1-2 Radhakrishnan has also made a translation with romanized Sanskrit and an extensive commentary, but I am unable to find his book on Amazon. You could try abebooks.com. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Mary Storm > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 12:08 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Bhagavad Gita Translation? > > Dear Indologists, > > I am looking for an English translation of the Bhagavad Gita > with commentary. Years ago I had one with Sanskrit, then > transliteration, then English and commentary by Swami > Chidbhavananda; it is no doubt out of print. > > This is for an introductory class for study abroad undergraduates. > They are studying Hindi, so can read Devanagari, but it is > rare to have a student who has had Sanskrit. I hope to find > something with useful commentary, and a feeling for the poetics.... > > Any suggestions would be most welcome! > > Many Thanks, > Mary > > > Mary N. Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director and Lecturer > India: National Identity and the Arts > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > www.sit.edu > > F 301 Lado Sarai > New Delhi 110013 > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > Office Landline +91 11 2437 8003 > Residence Landline +91 11295 53298 From theodor at RESEARCH.HAIFA.AC.IL Tue Jul 21 11:25:29 2009 From: theodor at RESEARCH.HAIFA.AC.IL (Ithamar Theodor) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 09 14:25:29 +0300 Subject: Bhagavad Gita Translation? Message-ID: <161227087125.23782.6643076553936363422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mary, I happen to have a Bhagavad gita translation with a commentary, forthcoming with Ashgate, UK, under the name 'The Bhagavad gita; Philosophy, Structure and Meaning'. If you are interested I could possibly send you a PDF version. All the very best, Ithamar ------------------------------------- Dr Ithamar Theodor Dept. of Asian Studies, University of Haifa e-mail: theodor at research.haifa.ac.il Home page: http://east-asia.haifa.ac.il/staff/itheodor.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Storm" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 1:07 PM Subject: Bhagavad Gita Translation? > Dear Indologists, > > I am looking for an English translation of the Bhagavad Gita with > commentary. Years ago I had one with Sanskrit, then transliteration, then > English and commentary by Swami Chidbhavananda; it is no doubt out of > print. > > This is for an introductory class for study abroad undergraduates. They > are studying Hindi, so can read Devanagari, but it is rare to have a > student who has had Sanskrit. I hope to find something with useful > commentary, and a feeling for the poetics.... > > Any suggestions would be most welcome! > > Many Thanks, > Mary > > > Mary N. Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director and Lecturer > India: National Identity and the Arts > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > www.sit.edu > > F 301 Lado Sarai > New Delhi 110013 > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > Office Landline +91 11 2437 8003 > Residence Landline +91 11295 53298 From mnstorm at MAC.COM Tue Jul 21 10:07:37 2009 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 09 15:37:37 +0530 Subject: Bhagavad Gita Translation? Message-ID: <161227087113.23782.12492173976284433634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I am looking for an English translation of the Bhagavad Gita with commentary. Years ago I had one with Sanskrit, then transliteration, then English and commentary by Swami Chidbhavananda; it is no doubt out of print. This is for an introductory class for study abroad undergraduates. They are studying Hindi, so can read Devanagari, but it is rare to have a student who has had Sanskrit. I hope to find something with useful commentary, and a feeling for the poetics.... Any suggestions would be most welcome! Many Thanks, Mary Mary N. Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director and Lecturer India: National Identity and the Arts and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad www.sit.edu F 301 Lado Sarai New Delhi 110013 Mobile +91 98106 98003 Office Landline +91 11 2437 8003 Residence Landline +91 11295 53298 From ambapradeep at GMAIL.COM Tue Jul 21 10:19:31 2009 From: ambapradeep at GMAIL.COM (amba kulkarni) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 09 15:49:31 +0530 Subject: Bhagavad Gita Translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087116.23782.803322285375497571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You may refer the students to http://www.gitasupersite.iitk.ac.in/ -- amba kulakrni Reader and Head Department of Sanskrit Studies University of Hyderabad 040 23133802(off) http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in http://sanskrit.inria.fr/~anusaaraka 2009/7/21 Mary Storm > Dear Indologists, > > I am looking for an English translation of the Bhagavad Gita with > commentary. Years ago I had one with Sanskrit, then transliteration, then > English and commentary by Swami Chidbhavananda; it is no doubt out of print. > > This is for an introductory class for study abroad undergraduates. They are > studying Hindi, so can read Devanagari, but it is rare to have a student who > has had Sanskrit. I hope to find something with useful commentary, and a > feeling for the poetics.... > > Any suggestions would be most welcome! > > Many Thanks, > Mary > > > Mary N. Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director and Lecturer > India: National Identity and the Arts > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > www.sit.edu > > F 301 Lado Sarai > New Delhi 110013 > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > Office Landline +91 11 2437 8003 > Residence Landline +91 11295 53298 > From jdnarayan at GMAIL.COM Tue Jul 21 13:11:22 2009 From: jdnarayan at GMAIL.COM (DN Jha) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 09 18:41:22 +0530 Subject: Bhagavad Gita Translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087128.23782.15638736187614672446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can I have a PDF version of the book? D N Jha On 7/21/09, Ithamar Theodor wrote: > > Dear Mary, > > I happen to have a Bhagavad gita translation with a commentary, forthcoming > with Ashgate, UK, under the name 'The Bhagavad gita; Philosophy, Structure > and Meaning'. If you are interested I could possibly send you a PDF version. > > All the very best, > Ithamar > > > ------------------------------------- > Dr Ithamar Theodor > Dept. of Asian Studies, University of Haifa > e-mail: theodor at research.haifa.ac.il > Home page: http://east-asia.haifa.ac.il/staff/itheodor.htm > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Storm" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 1:07 PM > Subject: Bhagavad Gita Translation? > > > Dear Indologists, >> >> I am looking for an English translation of the Bhagavad Gita with >> commentary. Years ago I had one with Sanskrit, then transliteration, then >> English and commentary by Swami Chidbhavananda; it is no doubt out of >> print. >> >> This is for an introductory class for study abroad undergraduates. They >> are studying Hindi, so can read Devanagari, but it is rare to have a >> student who has had Sanskrit. I hope to find something with useful >> commentary, and a feeling for the poetics.... >> >> Any suggestions would be most welcome! >> >> Many Thanks, >> Mary >> >> >> Mary N. Storm, Ph.D. >> Academic Director and Lecturer >> India: National Identity and the Arts >> and >> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture >> SIT Study Abroad >> www.sit.edu >> >> F 301 Lado Sarai >> New Delhi 110013 >> >> Mobile +91 98106 98003 >> Office Landline +91 11 2437 8003 >> Residence Landline +91 11295 53298 >> > -- D N Jha Professor of History (retired), University of Delhi 9, Uttaranchal Apartments 5, I.P. Extension, Delhi 110 092 Tel: + 2277 1049 Cell: 98111 43090 dnjha at del2.vsnl.net.in, dnj277 at hotmail.com, jdnarayan at gmail.com From heike.moser at UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE Tue Jul 21 20:59:30 2009 From: heike.moser at UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (Heike Moser) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 09 22:59:30 +0200 Subject: Invitation: Jaina workshop (T=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=FCbingen)?= Feb. 2010 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087134.23782.7691985666480119547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Invitation to the workshop The Jaina and the British Collaboration and Conflict, Concealment and Contribution during the 19th and early 20th century 19th/20th February 2010 University of T?bingen Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies (AOI) Department of Indology and Comparative Religion Some questions we would like to discuss: * Which Jaina entrepreneurs were among the most successful middlemen on behalf of the British East India Company, and the Empire? How did these successful Jaina invest their profits for religious or for social purposes? * Are the life histories of influential Jaina merchants exceptional or do they reflect the general history of their local communities? * How do the Jaina perceive their own role in the 19th century? Do oral and written family histories, as produced during the last 150 years, provide answers and questions? * What kind of references to the Jaina community can be traced in journals of British travellers, missionaries, or British East India Company employees during the 19th century? How are ?the Jainas? characterized in these accounts? * How do these findings correspond with those data of German sources from the late 19th and early 20th centuries? Why were German indologists more successful in getting access to Jaina manuscripts than the British researchers? * Which ? newly formed or existing ? Jaina institutions, organisations or outstanding personalities openly promoted the study of sacred texts in spite of the opposition among orthodox Jaina? * Did the ?discovery? of ?Jainism? as an independent religious tradition have an effect on the Jaina?s entrepreneurial position within the colonial economy? * To what extent do recent Jaina demands for the legal acknowledgement of their minority status refer to findings of the late 19th century scholars? * Which ? newly formed or existing ? Jaina institutions, organisations or outstanding personalities successfully promoted the revival of the almost extinct mendicant orders during the 19th century? * For further details on the content of the workshop vistit www.uni-tuebingen.de/indologie/Jain19thc.workshop.) Deadline and Organisation: * We invite all interested scholars to propose a presentation of 30 minutes including time of discussion. Interested scholars without a presentation are also welcome. We kindly request you to notify us before 30/11/2009. * Participant with a presentation are kindly requested to submit an abstract of 200-250 words until 30/10/2009 to Dr. Andrea Luithle-Hardenberg at a.luithle at gmx.de. * The language of the workshop will be English. * We are intending to publish all papers presented in the workshop in a joint volume. * The final program will be circulated by 15/12/2009. * The workshop will be held at the Castle Hohent?bingen. * For further questions regarding the organisation of the workshop please do not hesitate to contact Jain19thc.ws at uni-tuebingen.de. Dr. des. Andrea Luithle-Hardenberg Prof. Dr. Klaus Butzenberger, Dr. Heike Moser ************ Dr. des. Andrea Luithle-Hardenberg Eberhard-Karls-Universitaet Tuebingen Asien-Orient-Institut (AOI) Abteilung fuer Indologie und Vergleichende Religionswissenschaft Gartenstr. 19 72074 Tuebingen Germany phone: ++49-(0)7071-2972675 fax: ++49-(0)7071-255496 mail: a.luithle at gmx.net / Jain19thc.ws at uni-tuebingen.de ************ From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 22 09:49:48 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 09 05:49:48 -0400 Subject: Satya Ranjan Banerjee Message-ID: <161227087143.23782.12537672286732556196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I would like to learn the email address of Professor Satya Ranjan Banerjee, author of The Eastern School of Prakrit Grammarians and several other works. If any of you could supply this to me, I will be grateful. Thanks. George Cardona From mnstorm at MAC.COM Wed Jul 22 02:20:08 2009 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 09 07:50:08 +0530 Subject: Bhagavad Gita Translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087137.23782.2163107266393839466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ithamar, I would very much appreciate a copy of your translation PDF, thank you so much and congratulations on its publication! For all who have written with your suggestions, thank you for your kind help. All Best Wishes from Humid Delhi, Mary Storm On 21-Jul-09, at 4:55 PM, Ithamar Theodor wrote: > Dear Mary, > > I happen to have a Bhagavad gita translation with a commentary, > forthcoming with Ashgate, UK, under the name 'The Bhagavad gita; > Philosophy, Structure and Meaning'. If you are interested I could > possibly send you a PDF version. > > All the very best, > Ithamar > > > ------------------------------------- > Dr Ithamar Theodor > Dept. of Asian Studies, University of Haifa > e-mail: theodor at research.haifa.ac.il > Home page: http://east-asia.haifa.ac.il/staff/itheodor.htm > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Storm" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 1:07 PM > Subject: Bhagavad Gita Translation? > > >> Dear Indologists, >> >> I am looking for an English translation of the Bhagavad Gita with >> commentary. Years ago I had one with Sanskrit, then >> transliteration, then English and commentary by Swami >> Chidbhavananda; it is no doubt out of print. >> >> This is for an introductory class for study abroad undergraduates. >> They are studying Hindi, so can read Devanagari, but it is rare to >> have a student who has had Sanskrit. I hope to find something with >> useful commentary, and a feeling for the poetics.... >> >> Any suggestions would be most welcome! >> >> Many Thanks, >> Mary >> >> >> Mary N. Storm, Ph.D. >> Academic Director and Lecturer >> India: National Identity and the Arts >> and >> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture >> SIT Study Abroad >> www.sit.edu >> >> F 301 Lado Sarai >> New Delhi 110013 >> >> Mobile +91 98106 98003 >> Office Landline +91 11 2437 8003 >> Residence Landline +91 11295 53298 From mnstorm at MAC.COM Wed Jul 22 03:41:06 2009 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 09 09:11:06 +0530 Subject: Bhagavad Gita Translation? In-Reply-To: <2319309FC2014CBA9DC69B51C0F64460@Winston> Message-ID: <161227087140.23782.15842727787958817028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr Fosse, Thank you so much for your help. I will start digging on Amazon. Mary Storm On 21-Jul-09, at 4:03 PM, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Dear Mary Storm, > > I made a translation of the BG myself with good, clear Devanagari > followed > by a translation (see comments on Amazon.com by reviewers). No > comments, as > my American publisher wants to keep his editions compact. However, > there are > several commented editions of the Gita. Here are a few suggestions: > > My own translation at Amazon Britain: > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bhagavad-Gita-Lars-Martin-Fosse/dp/0971646678/ref=sr > _1_16?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248171367&sr=1-16 > > Or at Amazon USA: > > http://www.amazon.com/Bhagavad-Gita-Lars-Martin-Fosse/dp/0971646678/ref=sr_1 > _1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248171589&sr=1-1 > > Others: > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bhagavad-gita-Harvard-Paperback-F-Edgerton/dp/067406 > 9250/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248171407&sr=1-3 > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0873958306/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk > > http://www.amazon.com/Bhagavad-Gita-Commentary-Sri-Sankaracharya/dp/81852080 > 85/ref=sr_1_37?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248171872&sr=1-37 > > Both Laurie Patton and George Thompson have delivered good, modern > translations of the Gita, but without the Sanskrit text. You can > look them > up at Amazon. > > Editions with romanized Sanskrit and commentary: > > http://www.amazon.com/Bhagavad-Gita-Commentary-Based-Original-Sources/dp/019 > 8265220/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248172162&sr=1-2 > > Radhakrishnan has also made a translation with romanized Sanskrit > and an > extensive commentary, but I am unable to find his book on Amazon. > You could > try abebooks.com. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > From: > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo - Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of >> Mary Storm >> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 12:08 PM >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Subject: Bhagavad Gita Translation? >> >> Dear Indologists, >> >> I am looking for an English translation of the Bhagavad Gita >> with commentary. Years ago I had one with Sanskrit, then >> transliteration, then English and commentary by Swami >> Chidbhavananda; it is no doubt out of print. >> >> This is for an introductory class for study abroad undergraduates. >> They are studying Hindi, so can read Devanagari, but it is >> rare to have a student who has had Sanskrit. I hope to find >> something with useful commentary, and a feeling for the poetics.... >> >> Any suggestions would be most welcome! >> >> Many Thanks, >> Mary >> >> >> Mary N. Storm, Ph.D. >> Academic Director and Lecturer >> India: National Identity and the Arts >> and >> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture >> SIT Study Abroad >> www.sit.edu >> >> F 301 Lado Sarai >> New Delhi 110013 >> >> Mobile +91 98106 98003 >> Office Landline +91 11 2437 8003 >> Residence Landline +91 11295 53298 From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 22 14:04:24 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 09 10:04:24 -0400 Subject: Satya Ranjan Banerjee Message-ID: <161227087149.23782.15327626113935293631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks very much! I'll write him by regular post. Yours, GC -----Original Message----- >From: Peter Flugel >Sent: Jul 22, 2009 7:17 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Re: Satya Ranjan Banerjee > >Unfortunately he reads no email: > > >Professor S.R. Banerjee > >AD - 224, Sector ? 1 > >Salt Lake City > >Kolkata - 700 064 > >Ph. +91-33-23372869 > > >2009/7/22 George Cardona > >> Dear colleagues, I would like to learn the email address of Professor Satya >> Ranjan Banerjee, author of The Eastern School of Prakrit Grammarians and >> several other works. If any of you could supply this to me, I will be >> grateful. Thanks. George Cardona >> > > > >-- >Dr Peter Fl?gel >Department of the Study of Religions >Faculty of Arts and Humanities >School of Oriental and African Studies >University of London >Thornhaugh Street >Russell Square >London WC1H OXG >Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776 >E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk From pf8 at SOAS.AC.UK Wed Jul 22 11:17:29 2009 From: pf8 at SOAS.AC.UK (Peter Flugel) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 09 12:17:29 +0100 Subject: Satya Ranjan Banerjee In-Reply-To: <6694614.1248256188649.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227087146.23782.16320420960022655457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Unfortunately he reads no email: Professor S.R. Banerjee AD - 224, Sector ? 1 Salt Lake City Kolkata - 700 064 Ph. +91-33-23372869 2009/7/22 George Cardona > Dear colleagues, I would like to learn the email address of Professor Satya > Ranjan Banerjee, author of The Eastern School of Prakrit Grammarians and > several other works. If any of you could supply this to me, I will be > grateful. Thanks. George Cardona > -- Dr Peter Fl?gel Department of the Study of Religions Faculty of Arts and Humanities School of Oriental and African Studies University of London Thornhaugh Street Russell Square London WC1H OXG Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776 E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk From garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG Wed Jul 22 21:16:04 2009 From: garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 09 23:16:04 +0200 Subject: Journal of South Asia Women Studies vol. 11, no. 2 Message-ID: <161227087153.23782.1687248165513377902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am happy to announce Vol. 11/2 of the *Journal of South Asia Women Studies* http://asiatica.org/ In this issue: Note from the Editor: ?India General Elections 2009?, by Enrica Garzilli, and ?Indian Elections 2009: A Vote for Stability?, by Domenico Amirante Paper: " Women Empowerment and Activism in the Indian state of Uttarakhand?, by Annpurna Nautiyal Review paper: ?The Un-slammed Door: The Evolution of Compromise in Sangita Rayamajhi?s All Mothers Are Working Mothers, by Carol C. Davis. Summary of the papers ?Women Empowerment and Activism in the Indian state of Uttarakhand? offers and overview of the issues encountered by the women of the new state of Uttarakhand, as far as political participation and access to power are concerned, and outlines women?s movements of the state. ?The Un-slammed Door: The Evolution of Compromise in Sangita Rayamajhi?s All Mothers Are Working Mothers? analyses the first play to be published by a female Nepali playwright. Enjoy! Dr Enrica Garzilli Editor-in-Chief, JSAWS From BrodbeckSP at CARDIFF.AC.UK Wed Jul 22 23:22:39 2009 From: BrodbeckSP at CARDIFF.AC.UK (Simon Brodbeck) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 09 00:22:39 +0100 Subject: Genealogy and History Workshop: Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <78D07E41-9C09-4C70-8B2B-790EF3538C70@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087155.23782.18440103846556174442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> THE HISTORY OF GENEALOGY, THE GENEALOGY OF HISTORY: FAMILY AND THE NARRATIVE CONSTRUCTION OF THE SIGNIFICANT PAST IN EARLY SOUTH ASIA A four-day workshop at Cardiff University, from Wednesday 26th to Saturday 29th May 2010. Confirmed keynote speakers: Greg Bailey, Alf Hiltebeitel, and Richard Salomon. CALL FOR PAPERS Pre-modern South Asia has consistently but erroneously been presented as a land without 'history'. The Genealogy and History project explores how, in South Asia, 'family history' or 'genealogical narrative' has been an enduring resource for the formation and transformation of understandings of the past, present, and future. The workshop's key research question is: What is the role of genealogical narrative in pre-modern South Asia, and what is its relationship to other ways of presenting the past? Each participant will lead a one-hour session with a paper of 45 minutes. The proceedings of the workshop will be published. WE INVITE THE SUBMISSION OF ABSTRACTS ON THE TOPICS OF GENEALOGY, HISTORIOGRAPHY, AND NARRATIVE APPROACHES TO THE PAST IN PRE-MODERN SOUTH ASIA, ACROSS ANY AND ALL RELIGIOUS TRADITIONS, ON THE BASIS OF TEXTUAL AND EPIGRAPHIC SOURCES. The workshop is partially funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council. A fee of ?120 per participant will be charged, which will include accommodation (at St Michael's College, close to Llandaff Cathedral) and meals. Please email abstracts, before the end of September 2009, to James Hegarty (hegartyj at cardiff.ac.uk) and/or Simon Brodbeck (brodbecksp at cardiff.ac.uk). Please distribute this call for papers widely! From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Tue Jul 28 09:11:23 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 11:11:23 +0200 Subject: 'adhimukti' In-Reply-To: <4A6E6F6B.3010807@anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227087161.23782.1309002624261862894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear McComas, Check out adhimuccati in the CPD. With best wishes, Eli Quoting McComas Taylor : > Dear friends > > A colleague, Ruth Gamble, has posted me this question: > > "The word is adhimukti [mos pa or mos gus in Tibetan]. In one of > the poems I am looking at it is used in conjunction with spyod pa, > or carya -- adhimukticarya... adhi [above, over, on] and mukti is > liberation, right? So why does the Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon > list the meaning for adhimukti as "propensity, confidence"? And, > more intriguingly, why do you think most Tibetan translators > translate mos pa/mos gus as "devotion"?" > > A can anyone cast any light on why adhimukti might mean 'propensity, > confidence'? > > Thanks in advance > > McComas > > From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK Tue Jul 28 11:17:26 2009 From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 12:17:26 +0100 Subject: 'adhimukti' In-Reply-To: <2A050F71F50A0E4DA87B7DA81A57EE986B620C@EXPRSV05.mcs.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227087168.23782.3014825400564167930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a searchable CPD available on the University of Chicago's superb Digital Dictionaries of South Asia site: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ wc 2009/7/28 Mark Allon : > Subject: Re: 'adhimukti' > > Dear McComas, > Check out adhimuccati in the CPD. > With best wishes, > Eli > > > The Critical Pali Dictionary used to be available online > (http://pali.hum.ku.dk/cpd/). However, the search facility has not > worked for some time (for me at least). Are others on this list able to > use the search facility? > > > Regards > Mark > > Dr Mark Allon > University of Sydney > > -- Dr. Whitney Cox Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia, School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London WC1H 0XG From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK Tue Jul 28 12:10:17 2009 From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 13:10:17 +0100 Subject: 'adhimukti' In-Reply-To: <1248781278.4a6ee3ded4506@webmail.rrz.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <161227087173.23782.3444754108399276403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My mistake. I thank Harunaga Isaacson for the clarification. 2009/7/28 Harunaga Isaacson : > Quoting Whitney Cox : > >> There is a searchable CPD available on the University of Chicago's >> superb Digital Dictionaries of South Asia site: >> >> http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ > > What Whitney Cox points to is a searchable version not of the CPD (Critical Pali > Dictionary), but of the (useful but far less comprehensive, and less critical) > PTS Pali-English Dictionary (of Rhys-Davids and Stede). > > The CPD, begun by Trenckner, on which generations of outstanding Pali scholars > have worked, was and is a lexicographical project of an entirely different > calibre. > > Harunaga Isaacson > > > > -- > Prof. Dr. Harunaga Isaacson > Universit?t Hamburg > Asien-Afrika-Institut > Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets > Hamburg > Germany > tel. +49 (0)40 42838-3382 > -- Dr. Whitney Cox Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia, School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London WC1H 0XG From mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU Tue Jul 28 03:24:27 2009 From: mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 13:24:27 +1000 Subject: 'adhimukti' Message-ID: <161227087158.23782.10266904617072995402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends A colleague, Ruth Gamble, has posted me this question: "The word is adhimukti [mos pa or mos gus in Tibetan]. In one of the poems I am looking at it is used in conjunction with spyod pa, or carya -- adhimukticarya... adhi [above, over, on] and mukti is liberation, right? So why does the Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon list the meaning for adhimukti as "propensity, confidence"? And, more intriguingly, why do you think most Tibetan translators translate mos pa/mos gus as "devotion"?" A can anyone cast any light on why adhimukti might mean 'propensity, confidence'? Thanks in advance McComas From Harunaga.Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Tue Jul 28 11:41:18 2009 From: Harunaga.Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 13:41:18 +0200 Subject: 'adhimukti' In-Reply-To: <76c1007b0907280417o8a79385u8f5c1148822d5400@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227087171.23782.9251771019979768594.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Quoting Whitney Cox : > There is a searchable CPD available on the University of Chicago's > superb Digital Dictionaries of South Asia site: > > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ What Whitney Cox points to is a searchable version not of the CPD (Critical Pali Dictionary), but of the (useful but far less comprehensive, and less critical) PTS Pali-English Dictionary (of Rhys-Davids and Stede). The CPD, begun by Trenckner, on which generations of outstanding Pali scholars have worked, was and is a lexicographical project of an entirely different calibre. Harunaga Isaacson -- Prof. Dr. Harunaga Isaacson Universit?t Hamburg Asien-Afrika-Institut Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Hamburg Germany tel. +49 (0)40 42838-3382 From veltsch at OEAW.AC.AT Tue Jul 28 12:33:43 2009 From: veltsch at OEAW.AC.AT (Vincent Eltschinger) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 14:33:43 +0200 Subject: 'adhimukti' In-Reply-To: <4A6E6F6B.3010807@anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227087177.23782.1567686635968995759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Taylor, A very highlighting conceptual discussion of adhimukti/adhimok.sa can be found in Lambert Schmithausen: Der Nirvaa.na-Abschnitt in der Vini'scayasa.mgraha.nii der Yogaacaarabhuumi.h, Vienna 1969, pp. 179-180 (= endnote 263). As for the term adhimukticaryaa, your colleague is certainly aware of the fact that it designates a pre-stage (but actually already a bhuumi) in the system of the bodhisattvabhuumi-s. Although the book is not availabe to me at the present moment, I guess some semantic informations might be found in Har Dayal's classic work on the Bodhisattva doctrine in Buddhism. With best regards, Vincent E. > Dear friends > > A colleague, Ruth Gamble, has posted me this question: > > "The word is adhimukti [mos pa or mos gus in Tibetan]. In one of the > poems I am looking at it is used in conjunction with spyod pa, or carya > -- adhimukticarya... adhi [above, over, on] and mukti is liberation, > right? So why does the Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon list the > meaning for adhimukti as "propensity, confidence"? And, more > intriguingly, why do you think most Tibetan translators translate mos > pa/mos gus as "devotion"?" > > A can anyone cast any light on why adhimukti might mean 'propensity, > confidence'? > > Thanks in advance > > McComas > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Jul 28 10:49:44 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 16:19:44 +0530 Subject: Online Sanskrit-Woertebuch,St.Pts.Brg. Message-ID: <161227087166.23782.6044075726684917184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends, Could anybody inform if it is illegal to take printouts of or to save a page from the online BR St.Petersburg Dict.? I did not find any explicit advice. Possibly I do not know the signs and made a fool of me. DB Looking for local information? Find it on Yahoo! Local http://in.local.yahoo.com/ From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 28 20:24:26 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 16:24:26 -0400 Subject: 'adhimukti' Message-ID: <161227087180.23782.8379975589899457318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I too could not get the search to work. GC -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Allon >Sent: Jul 28, 2009 6:25 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Re: 'adhimukti' > >Subject: Re: 'adhimukti' > >Dear McComas, >Check out adhimuccati in the CPD. >With best wishes, >Eli > > >The Critical Pali Dictionary used to be available online >(http://pali.hum.ku.dk/cpd/). However, the search facility has not >worked for some time (for me at least). Are others on this list able to >use the search facility? > > >Regards >Mark > >Dr Mark Allon >University of Sydney > From h.arganisjuarez at YAHOO.COM.MX Wed Jul 29 00:19:10 2009 From: h.arganisjuarez at YAHOO.COM.MX (Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 17:19:10 -0700 Subject: Octavio Paz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087205.23782.17601059258727571801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Stella: Independently what is the Octavio Paz source, He was one of the great Mexican poets and writters that study Indian literature and Culture. Others were Alfonso Reyes, Jose Vasconselos, Francisco I. Madero, Amado Nervo. They are studied in Spanish Literature too. Regards. Horacio Francisco Arganis-Juarez. Lic. M.A. Researcher of Universidad Internacional Euroamericana. IEFAC, IBCH and U A de C. --- El mar 28-jul-09, Stella Sandahl escribi?: De:: Stella Sandahl Asunto: Octavio Paz A: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Fecha: martes 28 de julio de 2009, 21:26 Dear colleagues, In Octavio Paz' charming book In Light of India he quotes (page 160) one poem by VallaNa: "Beauty is not in what the words say but in that which they say without saying it: not naked, but through a veil, breasts become desirable." and another by BhavabhUti: "Armed with their rules and precepts, many condemn my verses. I don't write for them, but for that soul, twin to mine, who will be born tomorrow, Time is long and the world wide." These are obviously verses from the SubhASitaratnakoSa (1705 and 1731 respectively),? translated by Ingalls in his An Anthology of Sanskrit Court Poetry (1965) p. 442 and 445. My question is: Did Octavio Paz reinterpret Ingalls' translations (which are much longer) or is he quoting somebody else's translations? If the latter, whose translations? There are obviously no footnotes in Paz' book, although he refers to Ingalls in the text (p. 149). I would be grateful if somebody can throw light on this. Stella Sandahl ?Obt?n la mejor experiencia en la web! Descarga gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/ieak8/?l=mx From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Jul 28 21:26:52 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 17:26:52 -0400 Subject: Octavio Paz Message-ID: <161227087192.23782.12429999826757602705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, In Octavio Paz' charming book In Light of India he quotes (page 160) one poem by VallaNa: "Beauty is not in what the words say but in that which they say without saying it: not naked, but through a veil, breasts become desirable." and another by BhavabhUti: "Armed with their rules and precepts, many condemn my verses. I don't write for them, but for that soul, twin to mine, who will be born tomorrow, Time is long and the world wide." These are obviously verses from the SubhASitaratnakoSa (1705 and 1731 respectively), translated by Ingalls in his An Anthology of Sanskrit Court Poetry (1965) p. 442 and 445. My question is: Did Octavio Paz reinterpret Ingalls' translations (which are much longer) or is he quoting somebody else's translations? If the latter, whose translations? There are obviously no footnotes in Paz' book, although he refers to Ingalls in the text (p. 149). I would be grateful if somebody can throw light on this. Stella Sandahl From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Jul 28 21:29:04 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 17:29:04 -0400 Subject: adhimukti Message-ID: <161227087196.23782.9837147817523061728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just received this from a student (not on the Indology list) to whom I forwarded the adhimukti discussion. -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca Begin forwarded message: > From: "Bryanl" > Date: July 28, 2009 4:23:49 PM EDT (CA) > To: "Stella Sandahl" > Subject: adhimukti > > Hi Stella, > > The Chinese Buddhists also transliterate adhimukti as a-ti-mu-duo > and translate it as shan-si-wie which means "good thinking" or > "pious thoughfulness" or "good propensity" which gets closer to the > "devotion" meaning the questioner was commenting on, > > Bryan > > Source: Soothill and Hodous, a Dictionary of Chinese Buddhist terms. > > From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Jul 28 21:34:41 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 17:34:41 -0400 Subject: Octavio Paz Message-ID: <161227087200.23782.11559072947318033716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I can't help with Stella's question, but I am struck by her quote from Bhavabhuti: "Armed with their rules and precepts, many condemn my verses. I don't write for them, but for that soul, twin to mine, who will be born tomorrow, Time is long and the world wide." Didn't one of the Buddhist philosophers feel no one of his time really understood him, and make some comment like this? Dignaga or Dharmakirti, maybe? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU Tue Jul 28 10:25:26 2009 From: mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU (Mark Allon) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 20:25:26 +1000 Subject: 'adhimukti' In-Reply-To: <20090728111123.135863c4tc4in9a3@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227087163.23782.15512540353328612596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subject: Re: 'adhimukti' Dear McComas, Check out adhimuccati in the CPD. With best wishes, Eli The Critical Pali Dictionary used to be available online (http://pali.hum.ku.dk/cpd/). However, the search facility has not worked for some time (for me at least). Are others on this list able to use the search facility? Regards Mark Dr Mark Allon University of Sydney From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Tue Jul 28 21:05:06 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 23:05:06 +0200 Subject: Online Sanskrit-Woertebuch,St.Pts.Brg. In-Reply-To: <334204.20813.qm@web8602.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227087189.23782.210161725383687496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dipak, I cannot imagine that it is. Althogh the Motilal reprint says "all rights reserved", that in itself does not mean that they got any rights. Which website do you have in mind? Best wishes, Eli Zitat von Dipak Bhattacharya : > Dear Friends, > Could anybody inform if it is illegal to take printouts of or to > save a page from the online BR St.Petersburg Dict.? I did not find > any explicit advice. Possibly I do not know the signs and made a > fool of me. > DB > > > Looking for local information? Find it on Yahoo! Local > http://in.local.yahoo.com/ > > From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Tue Jul 28 21:45:32 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 09 23:45:32 +0200 Subject: Octavio Paz In-Reply-To: <20090728T173441Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227087202.23782.4941586374672554359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You must be thinking of the following verse by Dharmakirti: Valmiki dammed the sea with rocks put into place by monkies, and Vyasa filled it the arrows shot by Partha; yet neither is suspected of hyperbole. On the other hand, I weigh both word and sense and yet the public sneers and and scorns my work. O Reputation, I salute thee. Best wishe, EF Zitat von Allen W Thrasher : > I can't help with Stella's question, but I am struck by her quote > from Bhavabhuti: > > "Armed with their rules and precepts, > many condemn my verses. > I don't write for them, but for that soul, twin to mine, > who will be born tomorrow, > Time is long and the world wide." > > Didn't one of the Buddhist philosophers feel no one of his time > really understood him, and make some comment like this? Dignaga or > Dharmakirti, maybe? > > Allen > > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the > Library of Congress. From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Jul 29 10:29:27 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 09 03:29:27 -0700 Subject: Sanskrt dictionaries Message-ID: <161227087210.23782.5816250582456490208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mark, > guides to students on using the print versions of Sanskrit > dictionaries (MW, Apte, Macdonell, etc.) ... (order of entries, > limitations, etc.) I wrote a term paper on this in G?ttingen ca. 1995. If you don?t have it yet I can send you a copy. The paper is in German. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 29 04:11:24 2009 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 09 04:11:24 +0000 Subject: Adhimukti >> Dhiimukti In-Reply-To: <5023758.1248812666809.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227087207.23782.320830465710114739.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If I may be permitted to go off on a tangent from Adhimukti, I would like to ask the Indologists' help with the following. The 9th stanza on the completely inscribed side, dated 697 "saka, of the historically important 'Ligor' inscription from southern Thailand was edited (by Coed?s in BEFEO 1918.1, p. 30) and re-edited (by B.Ch. Chhabra in Expansion of Indo-Aryan Culture during Pallava Rule [Delhi 1965], p. 30) as follows: svarite (24) 'smi.ms tacchi.syo 'dhimuktir abhuuc ca naamata.h sthavira.hi.s.tikacai(25)tyadvitaya.m caitratritayaantike k.rtavaan As far as I can tell, this is unmetrical. I would rather edit it as follows: IX. [aaryaa] svarite (24) smi.ms tacchi.syo dhiimuktir abhuuc ca naamatas sthavira.h i.s.tikacai(25)tyadvitaya.m caitratritayaantike k.rtavaan ||b. dhiimuktir: 'dhimuktir Coed?s Chhabra (unmetrical). The reading dhii is clear and solves the metrical problem. However, I haven't yet been so lucky as to find any case in the sources accessible to me on paper or online, Buddhist or otherwise, of the name Dhiimukti. Can anybody help me fill this lacuna? Arlo GriffithsEFEO/Jakarta _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU Tue Jul 28 20:50:35 2009 From: mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU (Mark Allon) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 09 06:50:35 +1000 Subject: Sanskrt dictionaries In-Reply-To: <5023758.1248812666809.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227087183.23782.9531303987269234273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, Are guides to students on using the print versions of Sanskrit dictionaries (MW, Apte, Macdonell, etc.) available on the web (order of entries, limitations, etc.)? Regards Mark Dr Mark Allon University of Sydney From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Tue Jul 28 20:41:47 2009 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 09 08:41:47 +1200 Subject: 'adhimukti' In-Reply-To: <2ae392d5d8810fa9cddbc52143ad29b6.squirrel@srvc1.oeaw.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227087186.23782.5986439792272775373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 02:33:43PM +0200, Vincent Eltschinger wrote: > Dear Taylor, > A very highlighting conceptual discussion of adhimukti/adhimok.sa can be > found in Lambert Schmithausen: Der Nirvaa.na-Abschnitt in der > Vini'scayasa.mgraha.nii der Yogaacaarabhuumi.h, Vienna 1969, pp. 179-180 > (= endnote 263). As for the term adhimukticaryaa, your colleague is > certainly aware of the fact that it designates a pre-stage (but actually > already a bhuumi) in the system of the bodhisattvabhuumi-s. Although the > book is not availabe to me at the present moment, I guess some semantic > informations might be found in Har Dayal's classic work on the Bodhisattva > doctrine in Buddhism. > With best regards, > Vincent E. Your colleague may also find it helpful to have a look at the various permutations of adhi-muc found in the YBh &c. here: IeB :: Lexica Search (Legacy) http://lexica.indica-et-buddhica.org/dict/lexica-legacy Initially I would search for: Term: adhimuc* Search strategy: POSIX 1003.2 (modern) regular expressions Database: Any (All of these databases are available for download.) The various definitions and references available through the following may also help (also available as a download for off line use): THL Tibetan to English Translation Tool http://www.thlib.org/reference/translation-tool/ Kind regards, Richard > > Dear friends > > > > A colleague, Ruth Gamble, has posted me this question: > > > > "The word is adhimukti [mos pa or mos gus in Tibetan]. In one of the > > poems I am looking at it is used in conjunction with spyod pa, or carya > > -- adhimukticarya... adhi [above, over, on] and mukti is liberation, > > right? So why does the Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon list the > > meaning for adhimukti as "propensity, confidence"? And, more > > intriguingly, why do you think most Tibetan translators translate mos > > pa/mos gus as "devotion"?" > > > > A can anyone cast any light on why adhimukti might mean 'propensity, > > confidence'? > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > McComas > > > -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From Julia.Hegewald at MANCHESTER.AC.UK Wed Jul 29 14:35:23 2009 From: Julia.Hegewald at MANCHESTER.AC.UK (Julia Hegewald) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 09 15:35:23 +0100 Subject: Jaina Temple Architecture in India (publication announcement) In-Reply-To: <1248781278.4a6ee3ded4506@webmail.rrz.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <161227087215.23782.8530699465394654395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I would like to announce the publication of the following book, which might be of interest to some of you: Jaina Temple Architecture in India: The Development of a Distinct Language in Space and Ritual Julia A. B. Hegewald Monographien zur Indischen Archaeologie, Kunst und Philologie, Vol. 19 G+H Verlag, Berlin ISBN 978 3 940939 09 9 Hardcover, 693 pages, 966 colour illustrations, 366 maps and drawings, 24x30cm ? 128,- Jaina Temple Architecture in India is the first comprehensive study of the development and uniqueness of Jaina sacred structures. The monograph analyses Jaina temples in all regions of the Indian subcontinent and outlines clear continuities by covering the period from the early centuries BCE till the present day. It identifies a distinct approach to the shaping of ritual space in Jaina temple edifices, which involves often complex spatial layouts on numerous vertical levels as well as conglomerates of interconnected sanctums and building elements on various horizontal levels. These accommodate a multitude of venerated sacred objects and mirror specific Jaina ritual needs, patterns of worship as well as the translation of specific Jaina mythological and cosmological concepts into architecture. These aspects of multifaceted spatial planning are shown to be equally common to Jaina temples in the diaspora outside India. To order a copy, please email: bestellung at gh-verlag.com University libraries can also order via Otto Harrasssowitz: service at harrassowitz.de With best wishes, Julia Hegewald. -- PD Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald Reader in the History of Art and Architecture of South Asia, the Himalayas and Tibet Art History and Visual Studies (AHVS) Mansfield Cooper Building The University of Manchester Oxford Road Manchester M13 9PL UK From rajam at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 30 02:13:49 2009 From: rajam at EARTHLINK.NET (rajam) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 09 19:13:49 -0700 Subject: 'adhimukti' In-Reply-To: <5023758.1248812666809.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227087230.23782.6036863055810243388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By chance I recently ran into a scholar who apparently worked on the Critical Pali Dictionary! The scholar's name is Ole Pind (ohpind at post.cybercity.dk ). He was very much interested in visiting the Cornell library and had an exciting time being able to go near the stacks of books! Perhaps, an email to Professor Ole Pind might help to access the Critical Pali Dictionary online. Regards, V.S.Rajam On Jul 28, 2009, at 1:24 PM, George Cardona wrote: > I too could not get the search to work. GC > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark Allon >> Sent: Jul 28, 2009 6:25 AM >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Subject: Re: 'adhimukti' >> >> Subject: Re: 'adhimukti' >> >> Dear McComas, >> Check out adhimuccati in the CPD. >> With best wishes, >> Eli >> >> >> The Critical Pali Dictionary used to be available online >> (http://pali.hum.ku.dk/cpd/). However, the search facility has not >> worked for some time (for me at least). Are others on this list >> able to >> use the search facility? >> >> >> Regards >> Mark >> >> Dr Mark Allon >> University of Sydney >> From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Jul 30 00:00:39 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 09 20:00:39 -0400 Subject: Tibetan adhimukti Message-ID: <161227087224.23782.11437226027662042319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Again a message to me from Bryan Levman which seems interesting: The Tibetans translate as mos pa which means: 1) Meaning for the mind to have decided that something is appropriate / trustworthy / good and to turn towards that, take an interest in that, orient itself towards doing that. Hence, lit. "to be oriented towards", "to tend towards", "to be inclined to". It is similar to bdun pa, though that has more of the sense of actually striving after whereas this has a sense of simply liking, being appreciative of. It has a wide range of uses and on context means "to have a liking for", "to fancy", "to prefer", "to appreciate", and even "to be dedicated to", "to have conviction in". 2) "To think" that something is so, to direct one's mind to a certain way of thinking. Often seen in buddhist liturgies where a certain way of thinking, like with visualization, is necessary. [from the Illuminator dictionary.] Pali has adhimutti as resolve, intention, disposition, so pretty much the same as Skt. "propensity." It comes from the root adhi+ muc, probably muc in the sense of "loose" or "release" with "adhi" as an adverb of direction or place (PED), -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jul 29 19:20:39 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 09 21:20:39 +0200 Subject: 'adhimukti' In-Reply-To: <2A050F71F50A0E4DA87B7DA81A57EE986B620C@EXPRSV05.mcs.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227087220.23782.6034169922378207949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No, it's definitely broken. On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Mark Allon wrote: > The Critical Pali Dictionary used to be available online > (http://pali.hum.ku.dk/cpd/). However, the search facility has not > worked for some time (for me at least). Are others on this list able to > use the search facility? From mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU Wed Jul 29 11:44:46 2009 From: mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU (Mark Allon) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 09 21:44:46 +1000 Subject: Sanskrt dictionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087213.23782.12119122133197131129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote a term paper on this in G?ttingen ca. 1995. If you don?t have it yet I can send you a copy. The paper is in German. All best, Stefan Stefan, Please do. Regards Mark From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Wed Jul 29 19:45:26 2009 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 09 21:45:26 +0200 Subject: Publication Announcement Message-ID: <161227087218.23782.6664927348442141800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Alfred Hillebrandt, Vedische Mythologie. Herausgegeben von Andreas Pohlus. (Geisteskultur Indiens. 13. Klassiker der Indologie). (Studia Indologica Universitatis Halensis) Aachen: Shaker 2009. pp. 170. ISBN: 3-8322-8254-8 Price: 22.80 EUR http://www.shaker-online.com/Online-Gesamtkatalog/Booklist.idc?ID=10314470&CC=42773&Reihe=275.0&ReiheUR=1.0 Der Herausgeber hat den Text ("Kleine Ausgabe" 1910) neu gesetzt. In der zugrundeliegenden Erstausgabe finden sich eine Reihe von offenkundigen Druckfehlern, die im vorliegenden Band stillschweigend korrigiert wurden. Ebenso wurde mit offensichtlichen Inkonsistenzen, z. B. bei Verweisen, Abkuerzungen, Zitationsweisen oder Kursivierungen verfahren. Die Paginierung der Erstausgabe ist im fortlaufenden Text durch die in eckige Klammern gesetzten Seitenzahlen ersichtlich. Sie stehen an den urspruenglichen Seitenumbruchstellen und bezeichnen den Beginn einer neuen Seite. Die Fussnoten wurden nicht seiten- sondern abschnittsweise gesetzt. Der Index wurde erheblich erweitert und enthaelt nun auch die von Hillebrandt besprochenen Textstellen, vornehmlich aus dem Rigveda. Walter Slaje ------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Thu Jul 30 01:24:58 2009 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 09 03:24:58 +0200 Subject: 'adhimukti' Message-ID: <161227087227.23782.16283591790109920979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Concerning the online Critical Pali Dictionary hosted by Copenhagen University, I have been informed by Kenneth Zysk that the computer-department have now been asked to look into it. Hopefully, it will be up and running again soon. Thanks, Ken! Sincerely, Tim Dr. Ulrich Timme Kragh Assistant Professor Geumgang Center for Buddhist Studies Geumgang University, Dae-myeong Ri, Sang-wol Myeon Nonsan-si, Chungnam 320-931, Republic of Korea Tel. +82-41-731 3618 ________________________________ From: Indology on behalf of Dominik Wujastyk Sent: Thu 7/30/2009 4:20 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: 'adhimukti' No, it's definitely broken. On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Mark Allon wrote: > The Critical Pali Dictionary used to be available online > (http://pali.hum.ku.dk/cpd/). However, the search facility has not > worked for some time (for me at least). Are others on this list able to > use the search facility? From acollins at GCI.NET Thu Jul 30 22:49:45 2009 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 09 14:49:45 -0800 Subject: Octavio Paz In-Reply-To: <105531.69721.qm@web45607.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227087246.23782.530555866076124013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I can't answer the question specifically, but know that Paz was Mexican ambassador (or other consular official) to India, and that he was a friend of the novelist Raja Rao. I met Paz in Austin when Raja was teaching at the Univ. of Texas, probably in 1970 or so. Al Collins From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Jul 30 20:48:48 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 09 16:48:48 -0400 Subject: Book "Deve" of Rgveda selections Message-ID: <161227087233.23782.8582203944412644458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know anything about a tiny work entitled "Deve," which according to the NCC consists of RV verses ending in devAH? LOC has a summer intern who is creating descriptive records for a number of our Sanskrit and Pali manuscripts from various romanized sources (more about this shortly when her project is complete). LOC has two manuscripts of this work, whose content is indeed as described in the NCC. It is very short, only about 30 verses. It has nothing to say about its application/Sitz im Leben/viniyoga. Maybe a short way of worshipping all the gods? It seems to be a quite rare work, since NCC only mentions a few mss. I do not locate any copies in WorldCAt. A note I made some years ago says that Chaukhamba used to offer a printed version in its catalog. Any comments gratefully received. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu Jul 30 20:57:04 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 09 16:57:04 -0400 Subject: Book "Deve" of Rgveda selections In-Reply-To: <20090730T164848Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227087235.23782.7408703408436699019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Allen, This "DEVE" collection of mantras is reasonably popular among the Vaidikas and these mantras are used as general blessing. They have been published in pothi form in old times by Nirnayasagara. I have a printed copy, though I will have to hunt it down. Best, Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Allen W Thrasher [athr at LOC.GOV] Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:48 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Book "Deve" of Rgveda selections Does anyone know anything about a tiny work entitled "Deve," which according to the NCC consists of RV verses ending in devAH? LOC has a summer intern who is creating descriptive records for a number of our Sanskrit and Pali manuscripts from various romanized sources (more about this shortly when her project is complete). LOC has two manuscripts of this work, whose content is indeed as described in the NCC. It is very short, only about 30 verses. It has nothing to say about its application/Sitz im Leben/viniyoga. Maybe a short way of worshipping all the gods? It seems to be a quite rare work, since NCC only mentions a few mss. I do not locate any copies in WorldCAt. A note I made some years ago says that Chaukhamba used to offer a printed version in its catalog. Any comments gratefully received. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Jul 30 21:10:06 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 09 17:10:06 -0400 Subject: Book "Deve" of Rgveda selections Message-ID: <161227087238.23782.4530344360906773548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav, I'd appreciate that. I'd especially like to know if your ed. has any information besides the bare text. Allen >>> "Deshpande, Madhav" 7/30/2009 4:57:04 PM >>> Hello Allen, This "DEVE" collection of mantras is reasonably popular among the Vaidikas and these mantras are used as general blessing. They have been published in pothi form in old times by Nirnayasagara. I have a printed copy, though I will have to hunt it down. Best, Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu Jul 30 22:25:31 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 09 18:25:31 -0400 Subject: Book "Deve" of Rgveda selections In-Reply-To: <20090730T171006Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227087243.23782.3031993703022071699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Allen, I found my pothi edition. Unfortunately it is missing the first page/folio and the last few ones. However, from the continuing abbreviated title that appears in the left corner (?. ??.), I can make a safe assumption that the name of the pothi is ?gved?ya Nityakarma. The "Deve" mantras are given on folios 36a to 40. The section comes after Yaj?opav?tadh?ra?avidhi and is followed by the section of Rudra. The collection of Deve mantras begins with the formulaic ?r?ga?e??ya nama? followed by the mantra ga??n?? tv? ga?apati? hav?mahe. This mantra is like a preamble, since the number 1 appears after the mantra that begins with namo mahadbhyo namo arbhakebhyo etc. but ends with the word dev??. After 30 numbered mantras that end with the word dev??, the recitation is followed by two pages of selected blessing mantras and ending with tanno lak?m?? pracoday?t. From the appearance of the printed pothi, I am making an assumption that it is published by Nirnayasagara Press. Sorry can't give you more bibliographical information. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Allen W Thrasher [athr at LOC.GOV] Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 5:10 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Book "Deve" of Rgveda selections Madhav, I'd appreciate that. I'd especially like to know if your ed. has any information besides the bare text. Allen >>> "Deshpande, Madhav" 7/30/2009 4:57:04 PM >>> Hello Allen, This "DEVE" collection of mantras is reasonably popular among the Vaidikas and these mantras are used as general blessing. They have been published in pothi form in old times by Nirnayasagara. I have a printed copy, though I will have to hunt it down. Best, Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Jul 31 01:00:39 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 09 21:00:39 -0400 Subject: Octavio Paz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087252.23782.15204164655940265440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, I personally believe that Paz actually improved on Ingalls' translations. Paz' "translations" are of course unfaithful, but they are quite effective, especially the VallaNa one. After all, Octavio Paz was a great poet in his own right. I just wanted to know if he had actually taken his renderings of the verses I quoted from somewhere else. That doesn't seem to be the case. Thank you all for paying attention to this small issue. Best wishes to all Stella Sandahl -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 30-Jul-09, at 6:49 PM, Alfred Collins wrote: > I can't answer the question specifically, but know that Paz was > Mexican ambassador (or other consular official) to India, and that > he was a friend of the novelist Raja Rao. I met Paz in Austin when > Raja was teaching at the Univ. of Texas, probably in 1970 or so. > > Al Collins > From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Thu Jul 30 21:46:01 2009 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 09 23:46:01 +0200 Subject: Bhagavata-Purana Message-ID: <161227087241.23782.8175625871847657628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings to all, I have been asked if there is some kind of a "standard" edition of the Bhagavatapurana to rely upon (for citing and so on). Off hand, I didn't know one that may be called a "standard". Or is there a published version that serves as a "majority edition", at least? All the best Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 53113 Bonn From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jul 31 00:11:00 2009 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 09 00:11:00 +0000 Subject: Bhagavata-Purana In-Reply-To: <1D526BCD-B5CC-42CE-A40C-7EEF058DD52F@uni-bonn.de> Message-ID: <161227087249.23782.659420831772130055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a relatively recent critical edition published from Adhmedabad. My copy is in storage but this seems to be it (exported and slightly expanded from worldcat): ??STR?, H. G., SHELAT, B. K., & ??STR?, K. K. (1996-2002).?r?bh?gavatam: ?r?mad Bh?gavata-mah?pur??am : sam?k?ita ?vr?tti. Ahamad?b?da, Bho. Je. Adhyayana-Sa??odhana Vidy?bhavana. Best wishes from Medan, Arlo Griffiths > Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 23:46:01 +0200 > From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE > Subject: Bhagavata-Purana > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Greetings to all, > > I have been asked if there is some kind of a "standard" edition of the > Bhagavatapurana to rely upon (for citing and so on). Off hand, I > didn't know one that may be called a "standard". Or is there a > published version that serves as a "majority edition", at least? > > All the best > Peter Wyzlic > > -- > Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften > Abteilung f?r Indologie > Universit?t Bonn > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > 53113 Bonn _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/