From filipsky at RZONE.CZ Sun Feb 1 01:35:21 2009 From: filipsky at RZONE.CZ (=?utf-8?Q?Jan_Filipsk=C3=BD?=) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 09 02:35:21 +0100 Subject: Jaffna Tamil Kingdom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084694.23782.6701196362622335545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In 1978, S. Pathmanathan published "The Kingdom of Jaffna", Part I (Circa A. D. 1250-1450), Arul M. Rajendran, Colombo; a year later his article "The Kingdom of Jaffna - Propaganda? Or History?" appeared in SLJH, Vol. 5, 1979, pp. 101-125. There is also a Tamil book by S. John, "YALppANac carittiram. History of Jaffna" 2nd ed., American Ceylon Mission, Jaffna 1882, available in .pdf format through Google Books. Moreover, there are several histories of Jaffna offered by Asian Educational Services, New Delhi, viz. M. C. Rasanayagam, "Ancient Jaffna", reprint 1926 edition, 1984, 2003; M. C. Rasanayagam, "History of Jaffna" (in Tamil), reprint 1933 edn., 1986, 2003; Gnanaprakasar Nalloor Swamy, "Critical History of Jaffna: The Tamil Era", reprint 1928 edn., 2003; A. Mootootamby Pillai, "Jaffna History" (in Tamil), reprint 1915 edn., 2000, 2003; P. E. Pieris, "Kingdom of Jaffanapatam 1645", reprint 1920 edn., 1995; as well as K. Velu Pillai, "History of Jaffna - Yalpana Vaibhava Kaumudi", reprint 1918 edn., 2004 (out of print). Regards, Jan Filipsky -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 7:27 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Jaffna Tamil Kingdom Dear Indologists, I seem to remember reading long time ago a book on Jaffna history that the Jaffna kingdom was founded by Ariyac Cakkaravartti, a Tamil brahmin general of the Pandiyan king and that as a result Jaffna Tamil kings used to marry brahmin women from Ramesvaram. I do not remember if it was the book by Arasaratnam or Padmanathan. Does anybody have the reference? Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Mon Feb 2 06:17:59 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 09 11:47:59 +0530 Subject: publication anouncement Message-ID: <161227084697.23782.8151417234795683760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Publication Announcement Just released *Two ?aiva Teachers of the sixteenth century: Nigamaj??na I and his disciple Nigamaj??na II*. T. GANESAN, Hors s?rie n? 9, IFP, 2009, xviii, 274 p. This book is a complete analytical study of all the *?uvres* of Nigamaj??na I and his nephew-cum-disciple Nigamaj??na II. This study aims at bringing to limelight the great contributions made by these two teachers in the sixteenth century for the consolidation, elaboration and propagation of the *?aivasiddh?nta* religious system and philosophical doctrines. For the first time the contents of all the available texts of these two ?aiva teachers in Sanskrit and Tamil, of which many are unpublished, are completely and critically analysed with a view to fully bring out the richness of these texts in their totality and their value in the propagation of *?aivasiddh?nta* during one of the most crucial periods in Indian History. About the author Dr. T. Ganesan, is working as a Senior Research Assistant in the French Institute, Pondicherry since 1985. He is now working on the project A Comprehensive History of Saivasiddhanta in Tamilnadu surveying the contents of the entire gamut of Saivasiddhanta literature (Sanskrit and Tamil) to trace its historical development. He has presented many papers and research articles in seminars and published a few texts concerning Saivism and Saivasiddhanta. Contents *Part I : Analysis of Texts composed by Nigamaj??na I*............... 1-46 Ritual texts.............................................................................................. 1 Sthalapur??a-s....................................................................................... 29 Kamal?layac ci?appu ...................................................................... 29 Aru?akiripur??am ................................................................................. 33 Civatarum?ttaram.................................................................................. 36 Param?pat?cam.................................................................................... 38 Pati-pacu-p?cappa?uval........................................................................ 42 Aikkiyaviyal.......................................................................................... 43 Ca?ka?panir?kara?am.................................................................................. 43 Conclusion of part I............................................................................... 45 *Part II : Analysis of Texts composed by Nigamaj??na I**I*........ 49-243 ?tm?rthap?j?paddhati........................................................................... 49 D?k??dar?a......................................................................................... 128 ??aucad?pik?...................................................................................... 190 ?iv?layanirm??asth?panakriy?d?pik?.................................................... 200 J?r?oddh?rada?aka............................................................................... 205 ?aivak?laviveka.................................................................................. 216 ?aiva?o?a?akriy?prak??a.................................................................... 218 Commentary called Vilocana on the Varu?apaddhati............................ 222 Vyomavy?pistavalaghu??k?.................................................................. 225 ?aiv?gamaparibh???ma?jar?................................................................. 226 Civapu??iyatte?ivu.................................................................................. 229 ?ivaj??nasiddhisvapak?ad????ntasa?graha.................................................. 234 Commentary on the Civa???acittiy?r.................................................... 239 ?ivaj??nabodhopany?sa...................................................................... 241 Conclusion of part II........................................................................... 245 Summary in Tamil................................................................................ 247 Bibliography........................................................................................ 259 Index of important words.................................................................... 267 *For your orders/enquiries, please contact: Library French Institute of Pondicherry 11, St. Louis Street, P.B. 33, Pondicherry-605 001, INDIA Phone: (91)-413-2334168. Fax:(91)-413-2339534 E-mail:library at ifpindia.org * -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Mon Feb 2 19:25:16 2009 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 09 13:25:16 -0600 Subject: Sanskrit courses in India, between June and mid September In-Reply-To: <20090202190127.jfo2b64itcw4gcow@wwwmail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <161227084706.23782.3255482021201305289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ute: AIIS runs a Sanskrit program in Pune during the summers. Is this something that your students would be willing to participate in? Patrick >Dear all, >some Sanskrit students from Oslo will be in India from (ca.) June to >mid September, eager to participate in (beginners') Sanskrit >courses, spoken Sanskrit courses etc. I'd be grateful for >suggestions and contact addresses. >Sincerely >Ute Huesken > >-- >Ute Huesken >Professor of Sanskrit >Department of Culture Studies and Oriental Languages >University of Oslo >Faculty of Humanities >P.O. Box 1010 Blindern >N-0315 Oslo >Norway > >Room 387, P.A. Munch's Building >phone: +47 22 85 48 16 >telefax: +47 22 85 48 28 >ute.huesken at ikos.uio.no >http://www.hf.uio.no/ikos/om-instituttet/ansatte/vit/uteh.xml >http://www.kanchi-project.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/ From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Feb 2 22:30:57 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 09 17:30:57 -0500 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" Message-ID: <161227084708.23782.15562710169981322766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In some modern Indian language samsar(a) can mean something like "one's personal world" or "family life." For instance there are the novel and movie Apur sansar of Bibhutibhushana Bandhopadhyaya and Satyajit Ray, and the Maharashtra State Family Planning Bureau's magazine Sukhi sansar. How widespread is this usage, and how far back does it go, I wonder? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From jkirk at SPRO.NET Tue Feb 3 00:30:59 2009 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 09 17:30:59 -0700 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: <20090202T173057Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084713.23782.16324433525561392395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande wrote: The word samsara has this meaning in Marathi. It's also the case for Bengali. I found such a use of the term in Rimli Bhattacharya's book on the famous actress Binodini, 1863-1941, titled _Binodini Dasi : My Story and My Life as an Actress_. New Delhi: Kali for Women, 1998. Reflecting on the sudden death of a comrade actor, Umichand, suddenly dead from heat stroke after boarding a train carrying the theater company to their next performance stop, she wrote: "Such things happen regularly in the theater of our everyday life, the natyashala of sansar. Nothing stops for anybody, only he who is gone is gone." (p.150) Best wishes, Joanna Kirkpatrick ========================================== -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Allen W Thrasher Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:31 PM In some modern Indian language samsar(a) can mean something like "one's personal world" or "family life." For instance there are the novel and movie Apur sansar of Bibhutibhushana Bandhopadhyaya and Satyajit Ray, and the Maharashtra State Family Planning Bureau's magazine Sukhi sansar. How widespread is this usage, and how far back does it go, I wonder? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Feb 2 22:39:24 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 09 17:39:24 -0500 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: <20090202T173057Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084710.23782.1533274913960608672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The word samsara has this meaning in Marathi. Madhav Deshpande ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Allen W Thrasher [athr at LOC.GOV] Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:30 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In some modern Indian language samsar(a) can mean something like "one's personal world" or "family life." For instance there are the novel and movie Apur sansar of Bibhutibhushana Bandhopadhyaya and Satyajit Ray, and the Maharashtra State Family Planning Bureau's magazine Sukhi sansar. How widespread is this usage, and how far back does it go, I wonder? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Tue Feb 3 02:36:16 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 09 18:36:16 -0800 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: <20090202T173057Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084715.23782.14539430995572486489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In modern Brahmin Tamil, it means wife. On Feb 2, 2009, at 2:30 PM, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > In some modern Indian language samsar(a) can mean something like > "one's personal world" or "family life." For instance there are the > novel and movie Apur sansar of Bibhutibhushana Bandhopadhyaya and > Satyajit Ray, and the Maharashtra State Family Planning Bureau's > magazine Sukhi sansar. How widespread is this usage, and how far > back does it go, I wonder? > > Allen > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the > Library of Congress. From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Tue Feb 3 02:43:21 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 09 18:43:21 -0800 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: <20090202T173057Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084717.23782.16842234851966160604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By the way, the notion that a family binds a man to samsaram is eloquently proclaimed by one of the greatest poems of Indian literature, Purananuru 191 written by Ooreezuzavar about 1900 years ago. This poem was a favorite of A. K. Ramanujan's, and he loved to quote it. I don't have his wonderful translation at hand -- here is the one Heifetz and I did: Surely as if someone were hunting you across the breadth of a white salt-flat stretching out like a flayed skin thrown down to dry, one could run like a deer and flee, but life with a family binds up your feet. G. Hart From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 3 02:51:31 2009 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 09 18:51:31 -0800 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" Message-ID: <161227084720.23782.7776489023865234253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The spirit of this verse reminds me of the Pali cliche "sambaadho gharaavaaso rajopatho, abbhokaaso pabbajjaa," etc. No doubt there are many similar expressions in other texts, maybe in Bhartrhari though I can't think of the verse at the moment. R. Salomon ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Hart" To: Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 6:43 PM Subject: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" > By the way, the notion that a family binds a man to samsaram is > eloquently proclaimed by one of the greatest poems of Indian literature, > Purananuru 191 written by Ooreezuzavar about 1900 years ago. This poem > was a favorite of A. K. Ramanujan's, and he loved to quote it. I don't > have his wonderful translation at hand -- here is the one Heifetz and I > did: > > Surely as if someone were hunting you across the breadth > of a white salt-flat stretching out like a flayed skin > thrown down to dry, one could run like a deer > and flee, but life with a family binds up your feet. > > G. Hart > From ute.huesken at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Mon Feb 2 18:01:27 2009 From: ute.huesken at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Ute Huesken) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 09 19:01:27 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit courses in India, between June and mid September Message-ID: <161227084699.23782.15582363912915268667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, some Sanskrit students from Oslo will be in India from (ca.) June to mid September, eager to participate in (beginners') Sanskrit courses, spoken Sanskrit courses etc. I'd be grateful for suggestions and contact addresses. Sincerely Ute Huesken -- Ute Huesken Professor of Sanskrit Department of Culture Studies and Oriental Languages University of Oslo Faculty of Humanities P.O. Box 1010 Blindern N-0315 Oslo Norway Room 387, P.A. Munch's Building phone: +47 22 85 48 16 telefax: +47 22 85 48 28 ute.huesken at ikos.uio.no http://www.hf.uio.no/ikos/om-instituttet/ansatte/vit/uteh.xml http://www.kanchi-project.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/ From peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU Tue Feb 3 06:12:34 2009 From: peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU (Peter Friedlander) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 09 22:12:34 -0800 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" Message-ID: <161227084722.23782.13286168548381058444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, In Hindi usages of samsar(a) in the sense of the phenomenal world that go back at least to the time of Kabir and Raidas, so certainly since the 16th century. However samsar in Hindi bhakti poetry normally overlaps with the sense of rebirth in the phenomenal world in expressions like 'how can I cross to the other shore of samsara?'. Somewhat later, probably in the 19th century, samsar started to be used as a Sanskritic synonym for duniya. I am sure the shop in Banaras 'sari sansar' thinks of itself as 'sari world' rather than 'endless rebirth in saris'! (or saris in endless rebirth). Peter Peter Gerard FRIEDLANDER (Dr) :: Centre for Language Studies and South?Asian Studies Programme?:: Faculty of Arts & Social Sciences :: National University of Singapore :: AS4 9 Arts Link, #02-01 :: Singapore 117570 :: 65-6516 2468 (DID) Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Mon Feb 2 18:01:49 2009 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 09 23:31:49 +0530 Subject: resending question on chanted audio of Sanskrit declensions and conjugations? In-Reply-To: <3AF9B038A6B07641B36C799ED4EBB0D701E9415E@ITCS-ECLS-1-VS3.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227084701.23782.8139449524373098496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Here in Kerala we traditionally follow a book named SiddharUpa in which vocative is given after nominative. Regards K.Maheswaran Nair Professor(retired) University of Kerala India Quoting "Deshpande, Madhav" : > In the traditionally popular verse using all case forms of the word > rAma, the vocative comes at the end, after the locative: > > rAmo rAjamaNiH sadA vijayate rAmaM ramezaM bhaje > rAmeNAbhihatA nizAcaracamUH rAmAya tasmai namaH / > rAmAn nAsti parAyaNaM parataraM rAmasya dAso'smy aham > rAme cittalayaH sadA bhavatu me bho rAma mAm udhara // > > This was also the common order in the old zabdarUpAvali manuals I > remember from Pune. > > Madhav Deshpande > > > ________________________________________ > From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of George > Cardona [cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET] > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 9:00 AM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: resending question on chanted audio of Sanskrit > declensions and conjugations? > > In this connection, note that the prakriyaa show both orders. They > give the vocative forms after three forms (sg., du., pl.) of the > first triplet (nominative); e.g., v.rk.sas v.rk.sau v.rk.saa.h, > v.rk.sa, v.rk.sau, v.rk.saa.h (Ruupaavataara), raama.h raamau > raamaa.h, raama raamau raamaa.h (Siddhaantakaumudii). The > Ruupamaalaa, on the other hand, gives 'sukla 'suklau 'suklaa.h after > the forms of the seventh triplet (locative). This does not mean > that a syntactically distinct vocative set is recognized. > According to Paa.nini, the first triplet of endings (prathamaa) is > introduced on condition that invocation (sambodhana) is involved > (2.3.47: sambodhane ca [prathamaa]); the endings in question then > bear the class name aamantritam (2.3.48: saamantritam), and the > first or singular ending (ekavacanam) of the set is called > sambuddhi (2.3.49: ekavacana.m sambuddhi.h). George Cardona > > -----Original Message----- >> From: "Peter M. Scharf" >> Sent: Jan 30, 2009 8:29 PM >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Subject: Re: resending question on chanted audio of Sanskrit >> declensions and conjugations? >> >> Yes, that's what I'm saying. There is no vocative case in Sanskrit. >> There are only 7 vibhaktis. vocative is included in the 1st vibhakti >> so it should come immediately after it. >> Peter >> >> On Jan 30, 2009, at 4:59 PM, Dean Michael Anderson wrote: >> >>> Hi Peter, >>> >>> Are you saying that the vocative is chanted after the nominative? I >>> always thought it was at the end - after the locative. >>> Like this >>> Nominative - Prathama >>> Accusative - Dvitiya >>> .... >>> Locative - Saptami >>> Vocative - Sambodhanam <---------- >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Dean >>> >>> Peter M. Scharf wrote: >>>> I haven't explored the many Indian sites that are now including >>>> Sanskrit instructional materials on their sites. There may be >>>> some. The tapes I have of one pandit reciting paradigms are good >>>> but his voice is not of the best quality. If you find a pandit >>>> with a melifluous voice, clear pronunciation, and who recites in >>>> the proper order: >>>> >>>> i.e. nominative sg., du., pl., vocative sg. du. pl, etc. for nominals >>>> 3rd sg. du. pl., 2nd. sg. du. pl. for verbs. >>>> It'd be a good additiona I'm sure. >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> On Jan 29, 2009, at 3:41 AM, Dean Michael Anderson wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sorry about the bad formatting. Yahoo Mail has been acting up >>>>> lately. >>>>> >>>>> I was thinking of working with a pandit to create some mp3 files >>>>> with chanted audio of Sanskrit declensions and conjugations for >>>>> teaching purposes. They would be made freely available on the >>>>> internet. I haven't yet found anything quite right for that purpose. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Has this already been done somewhere? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dean Michael Anderson >>>>> >>>>> East West Cultural Institute >>>> >>>> ********************************************************* >>>> Peter M. Scharf (401) 863-2720 office >>>> Department of Classics (401) 863-2123 dept. >>>> Brown University >>>> PO Box 1856 (401) 863-7484 fax >>>> Providence, RI 02912 Scharf at brown.edu >>>> http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/people/facultypage.php? >>>> id=10044 >>>> http://sanskritlibrary.org/ >>>> ********************************************************* >>>> >> >> ********************************************************* >> Peter M. Scharf (401) 863-2720 office >> Department of Classics (401) 863-2123 dept. >> Brown University >> PO Box 1856 (401) 863-7484 fax >> Providence, RI 02912 Scharf at brown.edu >> http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/people/facultypage.php? >> id=10044 >> http://sanskritlibrary.org/ >> ********************************************************* > From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Mon Feb 2 18:10:19 2009 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 09 23:40:19 +0530 Subject: Sanskrit courses in India, between June and mid September In-Reply-To: <20090202190127.jfo2b64itcw4gcow@wwwmail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <161227084704.23782.15628097678742918903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am now retired and offer beginners' Sanskrit courses, spoken Sanskrit courses etc. K.Maheswaran Nair, Ph.D. Professor of Sanskrit(retd.) $ Hon.Director Centre for Vedanta Studies University of Kerala Trivandrum, India. E-mail ralidh at gmail.com Quoting Ute Huesken : > Dear all, > some Sanskrit students from Oslo will be in India from (ca.) June to > mid September, eager to participate in (beginners') Sanskrit courses, > spoken Sanskrit courses etc. I'd be grateful for suggestions and > contact addresses. > Sincerely > Ute Huesken > > -- > Ute Huesken > Professor of Sanskrit > Department of Culture Studies and Oriental Languages > University of Oslo > Faculty of Humanities > P.O. Box 1010 Blindern > N-0315 Oslo > Norway > > Room 387, P.A. Munch's Building > phone: +47 22 85 48 16 > telefax: +47 22 85 48 28 > ute.huesken at ikos.uio.no > http://www.hf.uio.no/ikos/om-instituttet/ansatte/vit/uteh.xml > http://www.kanchi-project.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/ From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Feb 3 13:59:06 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 09 07:59:06 -0600 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" Message-ID: <161227084726.23782.11805936001103662472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some observations seem to confirm Peter Friedlander and Dipak Bhattacharya's thoughts on the relatively recent origin of samsara in this sense: Both Platt's Hindustani Dictionary (1884) and Turner's Nepali Dictionary (1931) know the world only in its traditional Sanskrit sense: the round of transmigration, mundane existence, worldly concerns (but NOT "the world"). Both have the adj. samsaarik as meaning "worldly." In Tibetan, where the word 'khor ba, "the round," is the standard trans. of Skt. samsara, the term can be extended to mean roughly worldly, or lay life, in contrast with renunciate life, and can be used to mean something like "worldly confusion," but again, there is nothing in traditional literature that matches the use we find in "Apu Sansar." Nevertheless, if a modern writer were to extend the usage in this way, I suspect that it would be readily understood. All in all, it seems that the extension of meaning we find in the modern use of samsar has been long present as a possibility, but one that only became current in recent times. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Feb 3 14:04:57 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 09 08:04:57 -0600 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" Message-ID: <161227084728.23782.7228989327928471030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Of course my note should have read: Both Platt's Hindustani Dictionary (1884) and Turner's Nepali Dictionary (1931) know the word only in its traditional Sanskrit sense: the round of transmigration, mundane existence, worldly concerns (but NOT "the world"). Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From acollins at GCI.NET Tue Feb 3 23:08:50 2009 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 09 14:08:50 -0900 Subject: Sanskrit courses in India, between June and mid September In-Reply-To: <20090202234019.qjz36fltwgs4c04s@webmail.asianetindia.com> Message-ID: <161227084738.23782.6192115769790889058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Nair, My son is finishing first year Sanskrit at the Univ. of Chicago this year, which is his second go-round with the language. I will let him know about your teaching, which I assume is in Trivandrum? If he can do it, which dates would be good, and could he do second year Sanskrit with you, along with a little spoken Sanskrit? What would be the fees involved? I might be interested in joining him for a couple of weeks refresher course (I have a Ph.D. in Indic Studies, and was a Fullbright Scholar in Chenai (then Madras) in 1973 with Drs. Raghavan and Mahadevan.) Best regards, Al Collins From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Feb 3 11:41:25 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 09 17:11:25 +0530 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: <20090202T173057Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084724.23782.5935069361503544996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 03 02 09 The usage cannot be very old. Satyajit Ray's employment of the world in the sense of household and family life should not create any wrong impression about usage. Till now it is mostly dialectal and more common in? feminine dialect than in general usage. The general meaning of 'life including nature' is literary.and quite strong. For example Premendra Mitra's Samsaar siimaante "On the edge of the world"( the story of?a thief and a prostitute), employs the word in the more common sense. The Marathi usage deserves enquiry. Quite a few modern usages have spread from one region to others. Samskrti "culture" is of Marathi origin. Samsaar could have been the result of a Kolkata Mumbai journey. DB --- On Tue, 3/2/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: From: Allen W Thrasher Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 3 February, 2009, 4:00 AM In some modern Indian language samsar(a) can mean something like "one's personal world" or "family life." For instance there are the novel and movie Apur sansar of Bibhutibhushana Bandhopadhyaya and Satyajit Ray, and the Maharashtra State Family Planning Bureau's magazine Sukhi sansar. How widespread is this usage, and how far back does it go, I wonder? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Tue Feb 3 14:42:04 2009 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 09 20:12:04 +0530 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: <20090202T173057Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084731.23782.4975277516711617451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, The word samsara has the same meaning of world in Malayalam also.But the word samsara has also the meaning of conversation, speech in Malayalam. K.Maheswaran Nair Trivandrum Quoting Allen W Thrasher : > In some modern Indian language samsar(a) can mean something like > "one's personal world" or "family life." For instance there are the > novel and movie Apur sansar of Bibhutibhushana Bandhopadhyaya and > Satyajit Ray, and the Maharashtra State Family Planning Bureau's > magazine Sukhi sansar. How widespread is this usage, and how far > back does it go, I wonder? > > Allen > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the > Library of Congress. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Feb 3 20:17:08 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 09 20:17:08 +0000 Subject: Fwd: New in Paperback of MAURER: The Sanskrit Language: An Introductory Grammar and Reader Message-ID: <161227084733.23782.9240743936847885418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:05:20 -0000 From: "Schaefter, Dorothea " Subject: RE: New in Paperback of MAURER: The Sanskrit Language: An Introductory Grammar and Reader I am pleased to say that the new in paperback of "The Sanskrit Language" will be published this month! The publication date is 13th February and copies are already available for pre-order via our website. The price for the book is ?35. I would be grateful if you could send an update to your colleagues on the Indology list. The direct link is http://www.routledge.co.uk/books/The-Sanskrit-Language-isbn9780415491433 Alternatively the title can also be ordered from Amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sanskrit-Language-v-2/dp/0415491436/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1233676197&sr=11-1. Thank you very much. Best wishes, Dorothea Schaefter Editor, Asian Studies Routledge, 2 Park Square, Milton Park, Abingdon, Oxon OX14 4RN, UK Direct Tel: +44 (0) 207 017 6145 Fax: +44 (0) 207 017 6699 dorothea.schaefter at tandf.co.uk http://www.routledgeasianstudies.com Routledge is an imprint of Informa Plc. Routledge is a trading name of Informa UK Limited Registered office Mortimer House, 37-41 Mortimer St, London W1T 3JH Registered in England number 1072954 Our South Asian Studies catalogue is now online: http://www.routledge.com/catalogs/south_asian_studies_2009_uk -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Wujastyk [mailto:ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk] Sent: 30 October 2008 17:58 To: Schaefter, Dorothea Cc: Arain, Nasreen Subject: Re: New in Paperback of MAURER: The Sanskrit Language: An Introductory Grammar and Reader Excellent news! I've forwarded the information to the Indology list, and I'll work out a way of making a link somewhere on the Indology website. Many thanks to you and your colleagues. I hope this book will now start to take its rightful place as one of the best Sanskrit primers available. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow University College London On Thu, 30 Oct 2008, Schaefter, Dorothea wrote: > Dear Dominik, > Thank you very much for following up on this. I am very pleased to tell you that a new-in-paperback edition of "The Sanskrit Language" is currently in production. We anticipate a publication date of 1st February 2009, and the price will be ?35 for both volumes (the book will be published in one volume; the ISBN is 978-0-415-49143-3). > > I would be grateful if you could advertise the book on the Indology discussion group. Should you require further information, please do not hesitate to contact my colleague in Marketing, Nasreen Arain [nasreen.arain at tandf.co.uk]. > > With best wishes, > Dorothea > > > Dorothea Schaefter > Editor, Asian Studies > Routledge > http://www.routledgeasianstudies.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dominik Wujastyk [mailto:ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk] > Sent: 29 October 2008 18:31 > To: Schaefter, Dorothea > Subject: RE: MAURER: The Sanskrit Language: An Introductory Grammar and Reader > > Dear Dorothea, > > Is there any news? > > Best, > Dominik > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information contained in this email message may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, interference with, disclosure or copying of this material is unauthorised and prohibited. 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Further enquiries/returns can be sent to postmaster at informa.com Taylor & Francis Group is a trading name of Informa UK Limited, registered in England under no. 1072954 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Feb 3 20:39:49 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 09 20:39:49 +0000 Subject: Maurer's Sanskrit course Message-ID: <161227084736.23782.3907623867725784237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If bought from amazon.co.uk, the book is ?29.75, with free postage in the UK. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 4 11:36:34 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 09 11:36:34 +0000 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: <801138.73613.qm@web8605.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084746.23782.14878000241568998014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is an interesting point at stake here. As far as I can see, most words for "world" in Sanskrit mean, first of all, the social world, not the physical, exterior world. [I've got a feeling I've said this before ... :-(] -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Wed, 4 Feb 2009, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > I should, perhaps,?explain my translation of samsaara as 'world'. I used the word 'world' not in its strict literal sense but more in the sense of life in general ie in the sense of the relevant world.?Like samasaara 'world'? too has?polysemous facets. 'Lara is the greatest batsman in the world' should mean 'in the cricketing world' and not 'in the universe'. Sorry for too much advice! > > --- On Tue, 3/2/09, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > > From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU > Subject: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Tuesday, 3 February, 2009, 7:29 PM > > Some observations seem to confirm Peter Friedlander > and Dipak Bhattacharya's thoughts on the > relatively recent origin of samsara in this sense: > > Both Platt's Hindustani Dictionary (1884) and > Turner's Nepali Dictionary (1931) know the > world only in its traditional Sanskrit sense: > the round of transmigration, mundane existence, > worldly concerns (but NOT "the world"). > > Both have the adj. samsaarik as meaning "worldly." > > In Tibetan, where the word 'khor ba, "the round," is > the standard trans. of Skt. samsara, the term > can be extended to mean roughly worldly, or lay life, > in contrast with renunciate life, and can be used > to mean something like "worldly confusion," but again, > there is nothing in traditional literature that > matches the use we find in "Apu Sansar." Nevertheless, > if a modern writer were to extend the usage in this > way, I suspect that it would be readily understood. > > All in all, it seems that the extension of meaning > we find in the modern use of samsar has been long > present as a possibility, but one that only became > current in recent times. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Feb 4 06:46:59 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 09 12:16:59 +0530 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: <20090203075906.BRQ62732@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227084741.23782.9772452730845694012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should, perhaps,?explain my translation of samsaara as 'world'. I used the word 'world' not in its strict literal sense but more in the sense of life in general ie in the sense of the relevant world.?Like samasaara 'world'? too has?polysemous facets. 'Lara is the greatest batsman in the world' should mean 'in the cricketing world' and not 'in the universe'. Sorry for too much advice! --- On Tue, 3/2/09, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 3 February, 2009, 7:29 PM Some observations seem to confirm Peter Friedlander and Dipak Bhattacharya's thoughts on the relatively recent origin of samsara in this sense: Both Platt's Hindustani Dictionary (1884) and Turner's Nepali Dictionary (1931) know the world only in its traditional Sanskrit sense: the round of transmigration, mundane existence, worldly concerns (but NOT "the world"). Both have the adj. samsaarik as meaning "worldly." In Tibetan, where the word 'khor ba, "the round," is the standard trans. of Skt. samsara, the term can be extended to mean roughly worldly, or lay life, in contrast with renunciate life, and can be used to mean something like "worldly confusion," but again, there is nothing in traditional literature that matches the use we find in "Apu Sansar." Nevertheless, if a modern writer were to extend the usage in this way, I suspect that it would be readily understood. All in all, it seems that the extension of meaning we find in the modern use of samsar has been long present as a possibility, but one that only became current in recent times. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Wed Feb 4 12:18:31 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 09 13:18:31 +0100 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084750.23782.18385195346338528020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think I would heartily concur with this opinion. Obviously the concept of samsara is the Brahminical social hierarchy. The oldest use of the word in this meaning is probably the Pali canon, more specifically the Nikayas. It stands in opposition to the world of renunciation and liberation. Nagarjuna maintains in his Mula-madhyamaka-karikas 25.19-20 that samsara is equal to nirvana. In 11.1 he says that samsara has neither beginning nor end. It looks like Nagarjuna took it almost in a sociological sense. The matter of samsara is very interesting. The Bengali meaning of family or family-life can be easily understood from the sociological meaning of samsara as the beginningless and endless cycle of rebirth in the hierarchical social world. The time-concept of samsara is also cyclical whereas the time-concept of the sphere of renunciation and moksha is linear. There is - to paraphrase the Buddha - an end to samsara with its concomitant suffering. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dominik Wujastyk Verzonden: woensdag 4 februari 2009 12:37 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" There is an interesting point at stake here. As far as I can see, most words for "world" in Sanskrit mean, first of all, the social world, not the physical, exterior world. [I've got a feeling I've said this before ... :-(] -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Wed, 4 Feb 2009, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > I should, perhaps,?explain my translation of samsaara as 'world'. I used the word 'world' not in its strict literal sense but more in the sense of life in general ie in the sense of the relevant world.?Like samasaara 'world'? too has?polysemous facets. 'Lara is the greatest batsman in the world' should mean 'in the cricketing world' and not 'in the universe'. Sorry for too much advice! > > --- On Tue, 3/2/09, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > > From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU > Subject: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Tuesday, 3 February, 2009, 7:29 PM > > Some observations seem to confirm Peter Friedlander > and Dipak Bhattacharya's thoughts on the > relatively recent origin of samsara in this sense: > > Both Platt's Hindustani Dictionary (1884) and > Turner's Nepali Dictionary (1931) know the > world only in its traditional Sanskrit sense: > the round of transmigration, mundane existence, > worldly concerns (but NOT "the world"). > > Both have the adj. samsaarik as meaning "worldly." > > In Tibetan, where the word 'khor ba, "the round," is > the standard trans. of Skt. samsara, the term > can be extended to mean roughly worldly, or lay life, > in contrast with renunciate life, and can be used > to mean something like "worldly confusion," but again, > there is nothing in traditional literature that > matches the use we find in "Apu Sansar." Nevertheless, > if a modern writer were to extend the usage in this > way, I suspect that it would be readily understood. > > All in all, it seems that the extension of meaning > we find in the modern use of samsar has been long > present as a possibility, but one that only became > current in recent times. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > From chlodwig.h.werba at UNIVIE.AC.AT Wed Feb 4 14:23:39 2009 From: chlodwig.h.werba at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Dr. Chlodwig H. Werba) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 09 15:23:39 +0100 Subject: AW: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084753.23782.17948543452164859696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It may not matter in the given context of sa.msaara - but, anyway which words for 'world' are supposed to refer primarily to the social world and by what criteria? If You take loka-, its primary denotate is the free space, filled with light (its meaning 'people' is clearly secondary); the etymology of jagat-, as Narten has demonstrated in India Maior more than 35 years ago, is its being a substantivization of a Part. Pr. of gaa 'go', referring primarily to the totality of creatures that can move; bhuu(mi)- and bhuvana- belong to bhuu 'to become (more)' etc. Thanking you for your attention Chlodwig H. Werba -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Im Auftrag von Dominik Wujastyk Gesendet: Mittwoch, 04. Februar 2009 12:37 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" There is an interesting point at stake here. As far as I can see, most words for "world" in Sanskrit mean, first of all, the social world, not the physical, exterior world. [I've got a feeling I've said this before ... :-(] -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Wed, 4 Feb 2009, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > I should, perhaps,?explain my translation of samsaara as 'world'. I used the word 'world' not in its strict literal sense but more in the sense of life in general ie in the sense of the relevant world.?Like samasaara 'world'? too has?polysemous facets. 'Lara is the greatest batsman in the world' should mean 'in the cricketing world' and not 'in the universe'. Sorry for too much advice! > > --- On Tue, 3/2/09, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > > From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU > Subject: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Tuesday, 3 February, 2009, 7:29 PM > > Some observations seem to confirm Peter Friedlander > and Dipak Bhattacharya's thoughts on the > relatively recent origin of samsara in this sense: > > Both Platt's Hindustani Dictionary (1884) and > Turner's Nepali Dictionary (1931) know the > world only in its traditional Sanskrit sense: > the round of transmigration, mundane existence, > worldly concerns (but NOT "the world"). > > Both have the adj. samsaarik as meaning "worldly." > > In Tibetan, where the word 'khor ba, "the round," is > the standard trans. of Skt. samsara, the term > can be extended to mean roughly worldly, or lay life, > in contrast with renunciate life, and can be used > to mean something like "worldly confusion," but again, > there is nothing in traditional literature that > matches the use we find in "Apu Sansar." Nevertheless, > if a modern writer were to extend the usage in this > way, I suspect that it would be readily understood. > > All in all, it seems that the extension of meaning > we find in the modern use of samsar has been long > present as a possibility, but one that only became > current in recent times. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > From eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 4 10:13:49 2009 From: eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 09 15:43:49 +0530 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: <801138.73613.qm@web8605.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084743.23782.15605036591780189379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Hindi world maps they sell here in India use the word "samsaara" on them for "world". Or maybe "samsaar", I don't have one in front of me. Although they show the planet quite accurately, they don't seem to have an 'exit' marked anywhere, so they aren't much use for religious purposes. Best, Dean Anderson Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > I should, perhaps, explain my translation of samsaara as 'world'. I used the word 'world' not in its strict literal sense but more in the sense of life in general ie in the sense of the relevant world. Like samasaara 'world' too has polysemous facets. 'Lara is the greatest batsman in the world' should mean 'in the cricketing world' and not 'in the universe'. Sorry for too much advice! > > --- On Tue, 3/2/09, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > > From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU > Subject: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Tuesday, 3 February, 2009, 7:29 PM > > Some observations seem to confirm Peter Friedlander > and Dipak Bhattacharya's thoughts on the > relatively recent origin of samsara in this sense: > > Both Platt's Hindustani Dictionary (1884) and > Turner's Nepali Dictionary (1931) know the > world only in its traditional Sanskrit sense: > the round of transmigration, mundane existence, > worldly concerns (but NOT "the world"). > > Both have the adj. samsaarik as meaning "worldly." > > In Tibetan, where the word 'khor ba, "the round," is > the standard trans. of Skt. samsara, the term > can be extended to mean roughly worldly, or lay life, > in contrast with renunciate life, and can be used > to mean something like "worldly confusion," but again, > there is nothing in traditional literature that > matches the use we find in "Apu Sansar." Nevertheless, > if a modern writer were to extend the usage in this > way, I suspect that it would be readily understood. > > All in all, it seems that the extension of meaning > we find in the modern use of samsar has been long > present as a possibility, but one that only became > current in recent times. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Wed Feb 4 18:07:05 2009 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 09 23:37:05 +0530 Subject: Sanskrit courses in India, between June and mid September In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084756.23782.18366963157082159335.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr.Collins, Thank you very much for your e-mail.Both you and your son are welcome.My teaching is here in Trivandrum.Any time is convenient, but June-July months are rainy.I can provide single accommodation and food(Kerala food)in my house, if you are satisfied with limited facilities.Total monthly fee for food,accommodation, study materials and tution is $1600/-(one thousand six hundred Dollars.)Minimum two months required for students. Your son can do second year Sanskrit and some spoken Sanskrit.You can have refresher course and spoken. Regards K.Maheswaran Nair Trivandrum Quoting Alfred Collins : > Dear Professor Nair, > > My son is finishing first year Sanskrit at the Univ. of Chicago this > year, which is his second go-round with the language. I will let > him know about your teaching, which I assume is in Trivandrum? If he > can do it, which dates would be good, and could he do second year > Sanskrit with you, along with a little spoken Sanskrit? What would > be the fees involved? I might be interested in joining him for a > couple of weeks refresher course (I have a Ph.D. in Indic Studies, > and was a Fullbright Scholar in Chenai (then Madras) in 1973 with > Drs. Raghavan and Mahadevan.) > > Best regards, > > Al Collins > From eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 4 18:08:56 2009 From: eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 09 23:38:56 +0530 Subject: text files to be used for chanted Sanskrit conjugations and declensions available for proofreading In-Reply-To: <20090116T150446Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084758.23782.13154731302941012577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We have posted the text files (in Devanagari) that will be used to create the freely available mp3 audio files of Sanskrit conjugations and declensions for teaching purposes. We hope to begin recording tomorrow. If anyone has time to take a look at them and see if we missed any typos, we'd be most grateful. Because time is short, formatting is minimal and will be improved once the short recording window has closed. Comments can be emailed directly to me at: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com The files are at: www.eastwestcultural.org/chanted-nouns-verbs.htm Best regards, Dean Anderson East West Cultural Institute From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Wed Feb 4 18:11:01 2009 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 09 23:41:01 +0530 Subject: Sanskrit courses in India, between June and mid September In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084761.23782.6659139582257689207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello I am extremely sorry for sending to Indology list a personal message to Dr.Collins.This happened by mistatke. Regards K.Maheswaran Nair Trivandrum From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Thu Feb 5 09:03:28 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 09 10:03:28 +0100 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084763.23782.14021332816001765031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Clearly, in the light of the discussion of these other words (by Werba), words which we (emphasis added) translate by the English containerterm 'world', the term samsara comes closest to the social world. Samsara can be understood as a shorthand for the hierarchical social system of varna and jati. The socio-religous order behind the hierarchy is based on a gliding scale of increasing proximity to the ultimate impurity of death. Samsara as the endless cycle of 'rebirth'and reaping the fruits of previous actions (karma theory as a social ideology) denies the impurity of real actual physical death in the socio-religious order because one does not really die but endlessly reincarnates. Moreover, reincarnation - I wonder how seriously and widely held this concept is among average Hindus - explains and legitimizes the socio-religous inequality of the sacred order of varna-society. Hence it is perfectly explicable that the word samsara evidently means 'family' in Bengali, and also in Marathi? If I understood correctly. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dr. Chlodwig H. Werba Verzonden: woensdag 4 februari 2009 15:24 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: AW: "samsara" meaning "life" It may not matter in the given context of sa.msaara - but, anyway which words for 'world' are supposed to refer primarily to the social world and by what criteria? If You take loka-, its primary denotate is the free space, filled with light (its meaning 'people' is clearly secondary); the etymology of jagat-, as Narten has demonstrated in India Maior more than 35 years ago, is its being a substantivization of a Part. Pr. of gaa 'go', referring primarily to the totality of creatures that can move; bhuu(mi)- and bhuvana- belong to bhuu 'to become (more)' etc. Thanking you for your attention Chlodwig H. Werba -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Im Auftrag von Dominik Wujastyk Gesendet: Mittwoch, 04. Februar 2009 12:37 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" There is an interesting point at stake here. As far as I can see, most words for "world" in Sanskrit mean, first of all, the social world, not the physical, exterior world. [I've got a feeling I've said this before ... :-(] -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Wed, 4 Feb 2009, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > I should, perhaps,?explain my translation of samsaara as 'world'. I used the word 'world' not in its strict literal sense but more in the sense of life in general ie in the sense of the relevant world.?Like samasaara 'world'? too has?polysemous facets. 'Lara is the greatest batsman in the world' should mean 'in the cricketing world' and not 'in the universe'. Sorry for too much advice! > > --- On Tue, 3/2/09, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > > From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU > Subject: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Tuesday, 3 February, 2009, 7:29 PM > > Some observations seem to confirm Peter Friedlander > and Dipak Bhattacharya's thoughts on the > relatively recent origin of samsara in this sense: > > Both Platt's Hindustani Dictionary (1884) and > Turner's Nepali Dictionary (1931) know the > world only in its traditional Sanskrit sense: > the round of transmigration, mundane existence, > worldly concerns (but NOT "the world"). > > Both have the adj. samsaarik as meaning "worldly." > > In Tibetan, where the word 'khor ba, "the round," is > the standard trans. of Skt. samsara, the term > can be extended to mean roughly worldly, or lay life, > in contrast with renunciate life, and can be used > to mean something like "worldly confusion," but again, > there is nothing in traditional literature that > matches the use we find in "Apu Sansar." Nevertheless, > if a modern writer were to extend the usage in this > way, I suspect that it would be readily understood. > > All in all, it seems that the extension of meaning > we find in the modern use of samsar has been long > present as a possibility, but one that only became > current in recent times. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Feb 5 17:02:22 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 09 17:02:22 +0000 Subject: Journals Under Threat: organized opposition to evaluation of journals by the European Reference Index for the Humanities Message-ID: <161227084770.23782.13199417142512157070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An extremely important initiative has been taken this January to oppose the application of the criteria of the European Reference Index for the Humanities (ERIH) to journals on the history of science and science studies. The editors of fifty-six prominent journals in these fields have joined together to refuse to cooperate with the ERIH project, and to refuse to allow work in their journals to be appraised by ERIH. They have formally requested ERIH to remove these journals from the ERIH listings. The Indian Journal of the History of Science is a signatory to this opposition, I am proud to say. For the full text of the article (open access), see http://tinyurl.com/c56l35 (Click "PDF" in the left margin to download the original article.) There was some discussion in this forum last year about similar problems affecting Asian Studies journals in Australia. The Journals Under Threat initiative shows, I believe, that concerted action at a high level, and especially cooperation between the editors of journals in a particular field, can be powerfully effective. Best, Dominik Wujastyk From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Thu Feb 5 12:21:11 2009 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 09 17:51:11 +0530 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084766.23782.18105609464842772349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, It is true.Usually in Vedanta the term used is samsAracakra which denotes the cycle of birth,death and rebirth.The word samsara comes from the root sr gatau meaning to proceed, to go, to continue. Regards K.Maheswaran Nair Quoting victor van Bijlert : > Clearly, in the light of the discussion of these other words (by Werba), > words which we (emphasis added) translate by the English containerterm > 'world', the term samsara comes closest to the social world. Samsara can be > understood as a shorthand for the hierarchical social system of varna and > jati. The socio-religous order behind the hierarchy is based on a gliding > scale of increasing proximity to the ultimate impurity of death. Samsara as > the endless cycle of 'rebirth'and reaping the fruits of previous actions > (karma theory as a social ideology) denies the impurity of real actual > physical death in the socio-religious order because one does not really die > but endlessly reincarnates. Moreover, reincarnation - I wonder how seriously > and widely held this concept is among average Hindus - explains and > legitimizes the socio-religous inequality of the sacred order of > varna-society. Hence it is perfectly explicable that the word samsara > evidently means 'family' in Bengali, and also in Marathi? If I understood > correctly. > Victor van Bijlert > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dr. Chlodwig H. Werba > Verzonden: woensdag 4 februari 2009 15:24 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: AW: "samsara" meaning "life" > > It may not matter in the given context of sa.msaara - but, anyway which > words for 'world' are supposed to refer primarily to the social world and by > what criteria? If You take loka-, its primary denotate is the free space, > filled with light (its meaning 'people' is clearly secondary); the etymology > of jagat-, as Narten has demonstrated in India Maior more than 35 years ago, > is its being a substantivization of a Part. Pr. of gaa 'go', referring > primarily to the totality of creatures that can move; bhuu(mi)- and bhuvana- > belong to bhuu 'to become (more)' etc. > Thanking you for your attention > Chlodwig H. Werba > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Im Auftrag von Dominik > Wujastyk > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 04. Februar 2009 12:37 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" > > There is an interesting point at stake here. As far as I can see, most > words for "world" in Sanskrit mean, first of all, the social world, not > the physical, exterior world. > > [I've got a feeling I've said this before ... :-(] > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > > > > > On Wed, 4 Feb 2009, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > >> I should, perhaps,?explain my translation of samsaara as 'world'. I used > the word 'world' not in its strict literal sense but more in the sense of > life in general ie in the sense of the relevant world.?Like samasaara > 'world'? too has?polysemous facets. 'Lara is the greatest batsman in the > world' should mean 'in the cricketing world' and not 'in the universe'. > Sorry for too much advice! >> >> --- On Tue, 3/2/09, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: >> >> From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU >> Subject: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Tuesday, 3 February, 2009, 7:29 PM >> >> Some observations seem to confirm Peter Friedlander >> and Dipak Bhattacharya's thoughts on the >> relatively recent origin of samsara in this sense: >> >> Both Platt's Hindustani Dictionary (1884) and >> Turner's Nepali Dictionary (1931) know the >> world only in its traditional Sanskrit sense: >> the round of transmigration, mundane existence, >> worldly concerns (but NOT "the world"). >> >> Both have the adj. samsaarik as meaning "worldly." >> >> In Tibetan, where the word 'khor ba, "the round," is >> the standard trans. of Skt. samsara, the term >> can be extended to mean roughly worldly, or lay life, >> in contrast with renunciate life, and can be used >> to mean something like "worldly confusion," but again, >> there is nothing in traditional literature that >> matches the use we find in "Apu Sansar." Nevertheless, >> if a modern writer were to extend the usage in this >> way, I suspect that it would be readily understood. >> >> All in all, it seems that the extension of meaning >> we find in the modern use of samsar has been long >> present as a possibility, but one that only became >> current in recent times. >> >> Matthew T. Kapstein >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies >> The University of Chicago Divinity School >> >> Directeur d'?tudes >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris >> >> >> >> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ >> > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Thu Feb 5 16:57:03 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 09 17:57:03 +0100 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: <20090205175111.lf0c7imlwc4owwkk@webmail.asianetindia.com> Message-ID: <161227084768.23782.4704657404747688202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could you provide some telephone-numbers to actual texts where the term samsarachakra occurs? Greeting and thanks Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Maheswaran Nair Verzonden: donderdag 5 februari 2009 13:21 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" Hello, It is true.Usually in Vedanta the term used is samsAracakra which denotes the cycle of birth,death and rebirth.The word samsara comes from the root sr gatau meaning to proceed, to go, to continue. Regards K.Maheswaran Nair Quoting victor van Bijlert : > Clearly, in the light of the discussion of these other words (by Werba), > words which we (emphasis added) translate by the English containerterm > 'world', the term samsara comes closest to the social world. Samsara can be > understood as a shorthand for the hierarchical social system of varna and > jati. The socio-religous order behind the hierarchy is based on a gliding > scale of increasing proximity to the ultimate impurity of death. Samsara as > the endless cycle of 'rebirth'and reaping the fruits of previous actions > (karma theory as a social ideology) denies the impurity of real actual > physical death in the socio-religious order because one does not really die > but endlessly reincarnates. Moreover, reincarnation - I wonder how seriously > and widely held this concept is among average Hindus - explains and > legitimizes the socio-religous inequality of the sacred order of > varna-society. Hence it is perfectly explicable that the word samsara > evidently means 'family' in Bengali, and also in Marathi? If I understood > correctly. > Victor van Bijlert > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dr. Chlodwig H. Werba > Verzonden: woensdag 4 februari 2009 15:24 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: AW: "samsara" meaning "life" > > It may not matter in the given context of sa.msaara - but, anyway which > words for 'world' are supposed to refer primarily to the social world and by > what criteria? If You take loka-, its primary denotate is the free space, > filled with light (its meaning 'people' is clearly secondary); the etymology > of jagat-, as Narten has demonstrated in India Maior more than 35 years ago, > is its being a substantivization of a Part. Pr. of gaa 'go', referring > primarily to the totality of creatures that can move; bhuu(mi)- and bhuvana- > belong to bhuu 'to become (more)' etc. > Thanking you for your attention > Chlodwig H. Werba > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Im Auftrag von Dominik > Wujastyk > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 04. Februar 2009 12:37 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" > > There is an interesting point at stake here. As far as I can see, most > words for "world" in Sanskrit mean, first of all, the social world, not > the physical, exterior world. > > [I've got a feeling I've said this before ... :-(] > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > > > > > On Wed, 4 Feb 2009, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > >> I should, perhaps,?explain my translation of samsaara as 'world'. I used > the word 'world' not in its strict literal sense but more in the sense of > life in general ie in the sense of the relevant world.?Like samasaara > 'world'? too has?polysemous facets. 'Lara is the greatest batsman in the > world' should mean 'in the cricketing world' and not 'in the universe'. > Sorry for too much advice! >> >> --- On Tue, 3/2/09, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: >> >> From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU >> Subject: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Tuesday, 3 February, 2009, 7:29 PM >> >> Some observations seem to confirm Peter Friedlander >> and Dipak Bhattacharya's thoughts on the >> relatively recent origin of samsara in this sense: >> >> Both Platt's Hindustani Dictionary (1884) and >> Turner's Nepali Dictionary (1931) know the >> world only in its traditional Sanskrit sense: >> the round of transmigration, mundane existence, >> worldly concerns (but NOT "the world"). >> >> Both have the adj. samsaarik as meaning "worldly." >> >> In Tibetan, where the word 'khor ba, "the round," is >> the standard trans. of Skt. samsara, the term >> can be extended to mean roughly worldly, or lay life, >> in contrast with renunciate life, and can be used >> to mean something like "worldly confusion," but again, >> there is nothing in traditional literature that >> matches the use we find in "Apu Sansar." Nevertheless, >> if a modern writer were to extend the usage in this >> way, I suspect that it would be readily understood. >> >> All in all, it seems that the extension of meaning >> we find in the modern use of samsar has been long >> present as a possibility, but one that only became >> current in recent times. >> >> Matthew T. Kapstein >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies >> The University of Chicago Divinity School >> >> Directeur d'?tudes >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris >> >> >> >> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ >> > From yanom at CC.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP Fri Feb 6 01:05:20 2009 From: yanom at CC.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP (Michio Yano) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 09 10:05:20 +0900 Subject: Journals Under Threat: organized opposition to evaluation of journals by the European Reference Index for the Humanities Message-ID: <161227084772.23782.15413102026134436287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, Since I was much concerned in this issue, I expressed my own opinion in the latest volume (Vol.9) of SCIAMVS which I have been editing. Please read my editorial at: http://www.sciamvs.org/vol_09.html You can also read A Joint Response from History of Science, Technology and Medicine Editors. With best wishes, Michio Yano From acollins at GCI.NET Fri Feb 6 19:30:03 2009 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 09 10:30:03 -0900 Subject: Sanskrit courses in India, between June and mid September In-Reply-To: <20090204234101.qo37kr2u8g00g88o@webmail.asianetindia.com> Message-ID: <161227084778.23782.7900717834779352885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, I'm sorry too. These list serves consistently catch me sending personal messages. It is better to not send email at night, I guess! Al Collins From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri Feb 6 06:31:18 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 09 12:01:18 +0530 Subject: Corpus topographicum Indiae antiquae : complete in 2 vols.? In-Reply-To: <491329650200003A000473C7@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084774.23782.14152542034863868669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 06 02 09 Dear Colleagues, I tried to find out the earliest record of the annual cyclones that visit the south eastern coast of India around November. I could not go? beyond 1885.?Could anybody kindly inform?of any older record of the event? D.Bhattacharya --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Allen W Thrasher wrote: From: Allen W Thrasher Subject: Corpus topographicum Indiae antiquae : complete in 2 vols.? To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 7 November, 2008, 3:59 AM The catalog record for this book seems to indicate, by the angle brackets and space after 1990 and 1-2, that the catalogers thought that more vols. beyond vol. 2 were to be expected: LC Control No.: 75513010 Main Title: Corpus topographicum Indiae antiquae : a sodalibus Universitatis Gandavensis et Universitatis Lovaniensis editum / curantibus A. Scharpe? ... [et al.]. Published/Created: Gent : Universitas Gandavensis, 1974-<1990 > Description: v. <1-2 > : maps (some col.) ; 31 cm. pt. 1. Epigraphical find-spots / by R. Stroobandt -- pt. 2. Archaeological sites / by G. Pollet, P. Eggermont & G. van Damme. It is now 18 years since vol. 2, no other vols. appear in WorldCat, and the title appears to be o.p. Does anyone know if the work is now complete, even more vols. were intended? If so, I will get the catalog record changed. Thanks, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE Fri Feb 6 17:24:11 2009 From: zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 09 18:24:11 +0100 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084776.23782.16844938082034451180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Hart schreef: > In modern Brahmin Tamil, it means wife. In modern Kannada, it is the (nuclear) family: spouse and possible children. RZ -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Department fuer Asienstudien - Institut fuer Indologie und Tibetologie Ludwig-Maximilians-Universitaet Muenchen Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos Deutschland From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sat Feb 7 03:24:53 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 09 08:54:53 +0530 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" In-Reply-To: <498C723B.1050208@uni-muenchen.de> Message-ID: <161227084780.23782.12509204634087640547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 08 02 09\ Since the occurrence is in the modern languqge it may be worth enquiry if the use is late and imported DB --- On Fri, 6/2/09, Robert Zydenbos wrote: From: Robert Zydenbos Subject: Re: "samsara" meaning "life" To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 6 February, 2009, 10:54 PM George Hart schreef: > In modern Brahmin Tamil, it means wife. In modern Kannada, it is the (nuclear) family: spouse and possible children. RZ -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Department fuer Asienstudien - Institut fuer Indologie und Tibetologie Ludwig-Maximilians-Universitaet Muenchen Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos Deutschland Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Feb 7 11:35:52 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 09 11:35:52 +0000 Subject: SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts Message-ID: <161227084783.23782.15246030224348206751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am pleased to announce a new service that is now available through the INDOLOGY website. SARIT is a freely-available online facility that enables you to search through an online library of Sanskrit texts for keywords, word-collocations, and other linguistic strings. The system is based on the well-known ARTFL software, and is exceptionally powerful. It can handle many forms of query and output, including KWIC indexes. Your imagination is the limit. The texts are presented on screen using standard scholarly roman transliteration (Unicode), and searches can be constructed in transliteration or in a plain ASCII equivalent. As of today the SARIT library includes the full texts of the Manavadharmasastra and the Arthasastra. We expect the library to expand in the future as funding, time, and expertise allow. SARIT is available here: http://sarit.indology.info The SARIT service has been discussed and planned by myself and Richard Mahoney, and implemented by Richard. Financial support for part of the work has been received from the British Association for South Asian Studies (www.basas.org.uk), to whom we are most grateful. Enjoy, Dominik Wujastyk -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Feb 7 16:47:07 2009 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 09 11:47:07 -0500 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" Message-ID: <161227084788.23782.8810688242040458380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/7/2009 9:52:26 A.M. Central Standard Time, palaniappa at AOL.COM writes: The common brahmin dialect usage includes Tamil AmuTaiyAL/AmpaTaiyAL < akamuTaiyAl and hybrid AttukkAri < AkattukkAri. Sorry. In the above sentence, 'akamuTaiyAl' should be actually 'akamuTaiyAL'. Online Tamil Lexicon also gives the following entries. camucAram 01 1. cycle of mundane existence; worldly life; 2. family; 3. wife camucAri 1. married person, householder; 2. husbandman; farmer; 3. one involved in the cycle of births as a result of karma I have actually heard villagers use 'camcAri/camucAri' in the sense of 'farmer'. Regards, S. Palaniappan **************Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1217883258x1201191827/aol?redir=http://ad.doubleclick. net/clk;211531132;33070124;e) From palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Feb 7 15:51:59 2009 From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 09 15:51:59 +0000 Subject: "samsara" meaning "life" Message-ID: <161227084785.23782.9507262971400229219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On February 2, 2009, George Hart wrote: Message-ID: <161227084791.23782.3244702042195933403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Wujastyk, Could you explain the SARIT method of entering transliterated Sanskrit in the following way: "enter utf-8 characters directly using a suitable keyboard input layout"? Is there a site you could direct me to that would show how to enter Sanskrit letters by assigning keyboard strokes to them, not just for SARIT but to type diacritics in Word, etc. I have been typing retroflex t, etc., using a Sanskrit font then selecting characters from a Symbol menu. this is very cumbersome and slow. Hope my question is clear. Thanks, Al Collins From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Feb 9 21:12:52 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 09 13:12:52 -0800 Subject: SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084796.23782.10396057470943222312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > John also makes available a very convenient keyboard handler for > Windows There is also Andrew Glass?s Keyman input method for Windows. It uses the left Alt key to compose diacritics, but otherwise should work similarly to John Smith?s. In either case, keyboard handling is independent of the font you use, so you can separately choose the font and input method that you like best. > If you're using Linux, there's a nice system that works with > SCIM ... called m17n If you are using Linux, another route would be SCIM + KMFL, which may be a bit easier to install than SCIM + M17N. There is a KMFL version of Andrew?s Keyman layout, and I made a KMFL version of my own input method (= a for ?, ' s for ?, etc.). Drop me a line if you are interested in either of these (and we should probably also make them available on our project website). Best wishes, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 9 20:52:49 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 09 20:52:49 +0000 Subject: SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084794.23782.13393955220296223167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://bombay.indology.info is John Smith's website (guest hosted by INDOLOGY). There you can find the IndUni font family, which are very finely designed and optimized for Indic transliteration. John also makes available a very convenient keyboard handler for Windows (that's what I use) and another for the Mac. Using the IndUni unicode fonts (or any Unicode font) and the keyboard handler makes it extremely easy to type romanized Sanskrit. (RightAlt+a = ? (a-macron), etc.) John has done us all a great service. There are probably several other keyboard systems and fonts out there if one searches, but I can vouch for the simplicity and excellence of John's under Windows. I haven't used the Mac one. If you're using Linux, there's a nice system that works with SCIM (http://www.scim-im.org/), called m17n (http://www.m17n.org/m17n-lib-en/). A bit cryptic to install, but in fact easy, and also very easy to modify for oneself. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Alfred Collins wrote: > Dear Dr. Wujastyk, > > Could you explain the SARIT method of entering transliterated Sanskrit > in the following way: "enter utf-8 characters directly using a suitable > keyboard input layout"? Is there a site you could direct me to that > would show how to enter Sanskrit letters by assigning keyboard strokes > to them, not just for SARIT but to type diacritics in Word, etc. I have > been typing retroflex t, etc., using a Sanskrit font then selecting > characters from a Symbol menu. this is very cumbersome and slow. > > Hope my question is clear. > > Thanks, > > Al Collins > From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Mon Feb 9 21:39:16 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 09 22:39:16 +0100 Subject: SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084800.23782.17220606914850581272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > http://bombay.indology.info is John Smith's website (guest hosted by > INDOLOGY). There you can find the IndUni font family, which are very > finely designed and optimized for Indic transliteration. John also > makes available a very convenient keyboard handler for Windows (that's > what I use) and another for the Mac. Using the IndUni unicode fonts > (or any Unicode font) and the keyboard handler makes it extremely easy > to type romanized Sanskrit. (RightAlt+a = ? (a-macron), etc.) John > has done us all a great service. > > There are probably several other keyboard systems and fonts out there > if one searches, but I can vouch for the simplicity and excellence of > John's under Windows. I haven't used the Mac one. > > If you're using Linux, there's a nice system that works with SCIM > (http://www.scim-im.org/), called m17n > (http://www.m17n.org/m17n-lib-en/). A bit cryptic to install, but in > fact easy, and also very easy to modify for oneself. > > Best, > Dominik For those who read German, the weblog "Flammschild's j?lsth?na" from Heidelberg has very useful directions for keyboard configuration in both Windows and Linux: Windows: http://flammschild.blog.uni-heidelberg.de/2008/12/25/eingabemethoden-unter-windows/ Linux (scim + m17n on Ubuntu): http://flammschild.blog.uni-heidelberg.de/2008/12/22/eingabemethoden-unter-ubuntu/ Best, Birgit Kellner From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Tue Feb 10 02:38:12 2009 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 09 08:08:12 +0530 Subject: SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084803.23782.7197612637290246095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, ISM fonts of C-DAC are available for Sanskrit(DV) and Diacritic Roman(DV1). Only thing is that you have to learn the keyboard outlay. K.Maheswaran Nair Trivandrum Quoting Alfred Collins : > Dear Dr. Wujastyk, > > Could you explain the SARIT method of entering transliterated > Sanskrit in the following way: > "enter utf-8 characters directly using a suitable keyboard input layout"? > Is there a site you could direct me to that would show how to enter > Sanskrit letters by assigning keyboard strokes to them, not just for > SARIT but to type diacritics in Word, etc. I have been typing > retroflex t, etc., using a Sanskrit font then selecting characters > from a Symbol menu. this is very cumbersome and slow. > > Hope my question is clear. > > Thanks, > > Al Collins > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Feb 10 09:03:49 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 09 09:03:49 +0000 Subject: FONTS> Upgraded IndUni fonts In-Reply-To: <102438.1107.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084810.23782.15751423539728023101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The files on bombay.indology.info have been checked and re-checked, and we have tested the downloads on several machines and operating systems. They are not corrupt. If you have trouble downloading or unpacking these files, please seek help from your local computer support person (for many of us that means a 12-year-old nephew :-) Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Tue, 10 Feb 2009, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > 10 02 09 > Windows noted the following files as corrupt or invalid > IndUni-C.zip contains fonts based on URW++'s Courier-lookalike; > IndUni-H.zip contains fonts based on URW++'s Helvetica-lookalike; > IndUni-N.zip contains fonts based on URW++'s New Century Schoolbook-lookalike; > IndUni-P.zip contains fonts based on URW++'s Palatino-lookalike; > IndUni-T.zip contains fonts based on URW++'s Times-lookalike > I use HP's Compaq Presario Desktop with DC hardware > Dipak Bhattacharya > > --- On Thu, 22/1/09, Richard MAHONEY wrote: > > From: Richard MAHONEY > Subject: FONTS> Upgraded IndUni fonts > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Thursday, 22 January, 2009, 12:36 PM > > Dear Readers, > > John Smith's recently updated font collection will be of interest to > some of you. > > > -----Forwarded Message----- > From: John Smith > To: Richard MAHONEY > Cc: John Smith > Subject: IndUni fonts > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 11:53:36 +0530 > > [snip] > > I have recently created upgraded versions of my "IndUni" OpenType > fonts. These are Unicode-compliant fonts that contain a comprehensive > set of "Indological" characters, as well as all the European > characters > that scholars are likely to need. They are available as freeware, and > include high-quality lookalikes for Times, Palatino, New Century > Schoolbook, Helvetica and Courier. They are based on the freeware fonts > so generously contributed by URW++ of Germany. > > The upgraded fonts now contain all the accented characters specified by > MES-1, the smallest of the recognised Multilingual European Subsets of > Unicode. They also contain numerous other accented forms that linguists > tend to require (e.g. vowels with both macron and breve, vowels with > both macron and tilde), all the accented characters needed for Pinyin, > and a set of Cyrillic characters. This is, of course, in addition to > all the characters known to be used in representing Indian languages in > Roman script. > > As well as a greatly enhanced character set, the new versions of the > fonts have had various small bugs fixed, and have been set up to work > with both "composed" and "decomposed" forms of complex > characters -- > e.g. the form for "a macron" will be used whether the document > contains > the one character U+0101 ("a macron") or the two characters U+0061 > ("a") + U+0304 ("macron"). Since there seems to be > something of a shift > in usage under way here, this is a major advantage. > > The fonts can be downloaded from http://bombay.indology.info/. > > John Smith > > > John Smith > jds10 at cam.ac.uk > http://bombay.indology.info > > > > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Feb 10 03:58:44 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 09 09:28:44 +0530 Subject: SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts In-Reply-To: <20090210080812.mpeo6ts1cooc04gk@webmail.asianetindia.com> Message-ID: <161227084805.23782.18177044398875090358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 10 02 09 With DOS?SCRIPT was in use here. That offered many problems. Since the introduction of WINDOWS?I have used i-LEAP. Barring the svarita accents in Devnagari and the subscript ring in Roman there is no problem with this. Both can be improvised?with flawless end?products.The multi-language i-LEAP seems to have been withdrawn but more expensive packages for individual languages are available with CDAC. The new packages announced in these columns, however, are more convenient than i-LEAP DB? --- On Tue, 10/2/09, Maheswaran Nair wrote: From: Maheswaran Nair Subject: Re: SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 10 February, 2009, 8:08 AM Hello, ISM fonts of C-DAC are available for Sanskrit(DV) and Diacritic Roman(DV1). Only thing is that you have to learn the keyboard outlay. K.Maheswaran Nair Trivandrum Quoting Alfred Collins : > Dear Dr. Wujastyk, > > Could you explain the SARIT method of entering transliterated Sanskrit in the following way: > "enter utf-8 characters directly using a suitable keyboard input layout"? > Is there a site you could direct me to that would show how to enter Sanskrit letters by assigning keyboard strokes to them, not just for SARIT but to type diacritics in Word, etc. I have been typing retroflex t, etc., using a Sanskrit font then selecting characters from a Symbol menu. this is very cumbersome and slow. > > Hope my question is clear. > > Thanks, > > Al Collins > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Mon Feb 9 21:37:27 2009 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 09 10:37:27 +1300 Subject: SARIT ... [How to input unicode search terms] Message-ID: <161227084798.23782.3039806070283215039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Al, On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 07:42, Alfred Collins wrote: > Could you explain the SARIT method of entering transliterated Sanskrit > in the following way: "enter utf-8 characters directly using a > suitable keyboard input layout"? A few suggestions are made on the SARIT help page: SARIT: Search Term Help http://sarit.indology.info/searchterms.shtml especially here: SARIT: Search Term Help :: Diacritics and Special Characters http://sarit.indology.info/searchterms.shtml#diacritics The upshot is that you have three options: 1.) enter utf-8 characters directly using a suitable keyboard input layout (possibly complex yet fast, see links below) 2.) cut and paste utf-8 characters from the key alongside or below the main search form (slow and bound to irritate) 3.) enter utf-8 characters indirectly using postfix modifiers For speed and simplicity I would choose the last. (Personally, I like postfix modifiers and have never used keyboard input layouts, though I know many people are fond of them.) Here is a list of the postfix modifiers available for Romanised Skt (really just Harvard-Kyoto without the uppercase): long a (?) = a; long i (?) = i; long u (?) = u; vocalic r (?) = r; vocalic l (?) = l; velar n (?) = g; palatal n (?) = j; retroflex t (?) = t; retroflex d (?) = d; retroflex n (?) = n; palatal s (?) = z; retroflex s (?) = s; anusvara (?) = m; visarga (?) = h; circumflex = ^ :: e.g., a^ --> ? Using these modifiers you could search for `kau?il?ya' (kauTilIya) by entering either of the following in the search field: i.) kau?il?ya (utf-8) Here is the search result: http://tinyurl.com/dmgupa ii.) kaut;ili;ya (postfix modifiers) Ditto: http://tinyurl.com/cnkmu9 The SARIT search help page contains a number of other suggestions and examples, together with links to representative search results. You might like to scan the `Wildcard Characters and Boolean Operators' section (not half as tedious as the title I promise). > Is there a site you could direct me to that would show how to enter > Sanskrit letters by assigning keyboard strokes to them, not just for > SARIT but to type diacritics in Word, etc. I have been typing > retroflex t, etc., using a Sanskrit font then selecting characters > from a Symbol menu. this is very cumbersome and slow. In addition to the links Dominik has given, you might find these pages helpful: Alan Wood Unicode and Multilingual Programs and Utilities http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/utilities.html For Mac OSX Robert Zydenbos Using Unicode fonts with Mac OSX http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos/unicodeosx.html Kind regards, Richard -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Feb 10 05:32:38 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 09 11:02:38 +0530 Subject: FONTS> Upgraded IndUni fonts In-Reply-To: <1232607970.3877.18.camel@proliant> Message-ID: <161227084808.23782.3575633060455092050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 10 02 09 Windows noted the following files as corrupt or invalid IndUni-C.zip contains fonts based on URW++'s Courier-lookalike; IndUni-H.zip contains fonts based on URW++'s Helvetica-lookalike; IndUni-N.zip contains fonts based on URW++'s New Century Schoolbook-lookalike; IndUni-P.zip contains fonts based on URW++'s Palatino-lookalike; IndUni-T.zip contains fonts based on URW++'s Times-lookalike I use HP's Compaq Presario Desktop with DC hardware Dipak Bhattacharya --- On Thu, 22/1/09, Richard MAHONEY wrote: From: Richard MAHONEY Subject: FONTS> Upgraded IndUni fonts To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 22 January, 2009, 12:36 PM Dear Readers, John Smith's recently updated font collection will be of interest to some of you. -----Forwarded Message----- From: John Smith To: Richard MAHONEY Cc: John Smith Subject: IndUni fonts Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 11:53:36 +0530 [snip] I have recently created upgraded versions of my "IndUni" OpenType fonts. These are Unicode-compliant fonts that contain a comprehensive set of "Indological" characters, as well as all the European characters that scholars are likely to need. They are available as freeware, and include high-quality lookalikes for Times, Palatino, New Century Schoolbook, Helvetica and Courier. They are based on the freeware fonts so generously contributed by URW++ of Germany. The upgraded fonts now contain all the accented characters specified by MES-1, the smallest of the recognised Multilingual European Subsets of Unicode. They also contain numerous other accented forms that linguists tend to require (e.g. vowels with both macron and breve, vowels with both macron and tilde), all the accented characters needed for Pinyin, and a set of Cyrillic characters. This is, of course, in addition to all the characters known to be used in representing Indian languages in Roman script. As well as a greatly enhanced character set, the new versions of the fonts have had various small bugs fixed, and have been set up to work with both "composed" and "decomposed" forms of complex characters -- e.g. the form for "a macron" will be used whether the document contains the one character U+0101 ("a macron") or the two characters U+0061 ("a") + U+0304 ("macron"). Since there seems to be something of a shift in usage under way here, this is a major advantage. The fonts can be downloaded from http://bombay.indology.info/. John Smith John Smith jds10 at cam.ac.uk http://bombay.indology.info -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From drdavis at WISC.EDU Tue Feb 10 18:14:03 2009 From: drdavis at WISC.EDU (Donald R. Davis, Jr.) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 09 12:14:03 -0600 Subject: South Asia Summer Language Institute Message-ID: <161227084825.23782.7549789329171760664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am writing as Academic Director of the South Asia Summer Language Institute (SASLI) to ask for your help in encouraging students to participate in this year's program. SASLI is the nationally coordinated effort to ensure that less commonly taught South Asian languages are available to students for intensive study during the summer. This year, SASLI intends to offer 14 languages (including Sanskrit) at both beginning and intermediate levels. Graduate students are eligible for FLAS funding both through their home institution and through SASLI itself (deadline: Feb 20th, see the Funding link at our website). Undergraduates and graduates are also eligible for fee remission (partial or full). There is no need for me to emphasize the importance of language study to all areas of South Asian studies. So, I hope you will take a moment to make your students aware of this terrific opportunity and please forward this message to other listservs, as appropriate. If you need any further details, please do not hesitate to contact me or Laura Hammond, Assistant Director of SASLI (ljhammond at wisc.edu). http://sasli.wisc.edu/index.htm Sincerely, Don Davis Dept of Languages & Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison drdavis at wisc.edu From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Tue Feb 10 13:59:48 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 09 14:59:48 +0100 Subject: Ludwick Sternbach Bibliography In-Reply-To: <20090210080812.mpeo6ts1cooc04gk@webmail.asianetindia.com> Message-ID: <161227084813.23782.6526482663041027369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I would like to know if there is somewhere published, printed or on-line available, a complete bibliography of the works of the great Ludwick Sternbach ? Thank you for your help, Christophe Vielle -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From karp at UW.EDU.PL Tue Feb 10 14:57:07 2009 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 09 15:57:07 +0100 Subject: Ludwick Sternbach Bibliography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084815.23782.5533329395125220915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:59 2009-02-10, you wrote: >Dear Indologists, > >I would like to know if there is somewhere published, printed or on-line >available, a complete bibliography of the works of the great Ludwick >Sternbach ? > >Thank you for your help, > >Christophe Vielle >-- > >http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be Just a small correction. It's Ludwik, not Ludwick. Regards, Artur K. PS. As far as I know nothing of the sort was published in Poland, but I will ask around. A. From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Tue Feb 10 15:42:27 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 09 16:42:27 +0100 Subject: AW: Ludwick Sternbach Bibliography Message-ID: <161227084817.23782.7411853555398079648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bibliography of published works of Dr. Ludwik Sternbach In: JGJRI 33,2(Apr.-Jun.1977) S. 1-51 FROM: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/Sards2/ Best, RG ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von Christophe Vielle Gesendet: Di 10.02.2009 14:59 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Ludwick Sternbach Bibliography Dear Indologists, I would like to know if there is somewhere published, printed or on-line available, a complete bibliography of the works of the great Ludwick Sternbach ? Thank you for your help, Christophe Vielle -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Tue Feb 10 16:18:16 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 09 17:18:16 +0100 Subject: AW: Ludwik Sternbach Bibliography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084819.23782.1407458214862681733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes indeed, it is Ludwik, but I typed the name looking at a paper where it is spelled "Ludwick" (there are a few like that, esp. published in India, among which a paper, in the Bhaaratiiya Vidyaa 15/1954, where in the errata it is precisely said to correct "Ludwick" into "Ludwik" !). Thanks to Reinhold Gruenendahl for the reference to the pre-1977 bibliography - maybe I could complete it in looking at some obituary of the scholar. C. >Just a small correction. It's Ludwik, not Ludwick. > >Regards, > >Artur K. > >PS. As far as I know nothing of the sort was published in Poland, >but I will ask around. > >A. >Bibliography of published works of Dr. Ludwik Sternbach In: JGJRI >33,2(Apr.-Jun.1977) S. 1-51 > > >FROM: >http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/Sards2/ > > >Best, >RG > > > ________________________________________________ -- From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Tue Feb 10 16:36:08 2009 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 09 17:36:08 +0100 Subject: Ludwick Sternbach Bibliography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084821.23782.11699633282715065194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition: -- Botto, Oscar: Bibliography of Dr. Ludwik Sternbach's works. In: IT 7(1979), pp. 17-43. -- Sinha, J. P.: Bibliography of Works of Dr. Ludwik Sternbach. In: Ludwik Sternbach Felicitation Volume, ed. by J. P. Sinha. Vol. 1. Lucknow 1979 pp. 25-56 Likewise from SARDS2: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/Sards2/ Best, Roland Steiner From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Tue Feb 10 17:07:40 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 09 18:07:40 +0100 Subject: Ludwik Sternbach Bibliography In-Reply-To: <20090210173608.cevegod3mecgo08k@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: <161227084823.23782.11179307086230053690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there any German project (with Harrassowitz) to publish one or two volume(s) of L. Sternbach's "Kleine Schriften" (an opportunity both to reprint some of his papers, esp. the ones less easily available, and to list his more recent bibliography, including several monographs) ? Christophe Vielle with thanks to R. Steiner for >In addition: > >-- Botto, Oscar: Bibliography of Dr. Ludwik Sternbach's works. In: >IT 7(1979), pp. 17-43. > > >-- Sinha, J. P.: Bibliography of Works of Dr. Ludwik Sternbach. In: >Ludwik Sternbach Felicitation Volume, ed. by J. P. Sinha. Vol. 1. >Lucknow 1979 pp. 25-56 > >Likewise from SARDS2: >http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/Sards2/ > >Best, >Roland Steiner -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From opfallon at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 12 12:13:58 2009 From: opfallon at YAHOO.COM (Oliver Fallon) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 09 04:13:58 -0800 Subject: Macdonell and Whitney Grammars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084828.23782.11483814895926510858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone on the list have information on the availability of etexts of: Macdonell: A Sanskrit Grammar for Students and Whitney: Sanskrit Grammar |(5th ed. 1924) I already have the scanned pdfs but it would be very useful to get an accurate text document of either of these works. Surely this is a desideratum to compliment available versions of Whitney's Roots and MW's Dictionary? With thanks, Oliver Fallon http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volume-v-78.html From opfallon at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 12 12:38:04 2009 From: opfallon at YAHOO.COM (Oliver Fallon) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 09 04:38:04 -0800 Subject: Bha=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=AD=E1=B9=ADik=C4=81vya:?= New Edition and Translation Message-ID: <161227084830.23782.10129115244043919885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, Published by the Clay Sanskrit Library (www.claysanskritlibrary.org): Bhatti's Poem: The Death of Ravana http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volume-v-78.html Romanised text and facing page translation. The translation is literal enough to be a useful study aid. The Bha??ik?vya provides a systematic illustration of large sections of P??ini's A???dhy?y?. The s?tras illustrated in each verse are given in the notes so that it is possible to read the Bha??ik?vya in conjunction with a commentary such as the K??ik? or a derivative work such as the Siddh?ntakaumud?. In many cases Bha??i uses the exact words or phrases that are also the standard examples in the commentaries. There are notes giving references to ala?k?ra texts for Canto 10 which illustrates the figures of speech. Significant variants are discussed in the notes. It also happens to be a damn good poem. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhattikavya with apologies for self-promotion, Oliver Fallon From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Thu Feb 12 15:26:15 2009 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 09 10:26:15 -0500 Subject: Macdonell and Whitney Grammars In-Reply-To: <481904.89622.qm@web39701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084835.23782.3274905830544772591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Search http://www.easternbookcorporation.com/search.php I think you will find both John On Feb 12, 2009, at 7:13 AM, Oliver Fallon wrote: > Does anyone on the list have information on the availability of > etexts of: > > Macdonell: A Sanskrit Grammar for Students > > and > > Whitney: Sanskrit Grammar |(5th ed. 1924) > > I already have the scanned pdfs but it would be very useful to get > an accurate text document of either of these works. Surely this is a > desideratum to compliment available versions of Whitney's Roots and > MW's Dictionary? > > With thanks, > Oliver Fallon > http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volume-v-78.html > > > > > > > -- > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 803252663) is spam: > Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=803252663&m=ff365ac6e0a3 > Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=803252663&m=ff365ac6e0a3 > Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=803252663&m=ff365ac6e0a3 > ------------------------------------------------------ > END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > From hwtull at MSN.COM Thu Feb 12 18:56:18 2009 From: hwtull at MSN.COM (Herman Tull) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 09 13:56:18 -0500 Subject: Macdonell and Whitney Grammars In-Reply-To: <481904.89622.qm@web39701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084843.23782.9413084527712321725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For Macdonell, see: http://www.archive.org/details/sanskritgrammarf014425mbp and for Whitney, see: http://www.archive.org/details/sanskritgrammari00whit -------------------------------------------------- From: "Stephen Hodge" Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:22 AM To: Subject: Re: Macdonell and Whitney Grammars >> Does anyone on the list have information on the availability of >> etexts of . . . . > >>Macdonell: A Sanskrit Grammar for Students >>Whitney: Sanskrit Grammar |(5th ed. 1924) > > Such are not available as far as I can ascertain. Pity. > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge > From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Thu Feb 12 16:22:43 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 09 16:22:43 +0000 Subject: Macdonell and Whitney Grammars Message-ID: <161227084841.23782.5363797660769517428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Does anyone on the list have information on the availability of > etexts of . . . . >Macdonell: A Sanskrit Grammar for Students >Whitney: Sanskrit Grammar |(5th ed. 1924) Such are not available as far as I can ascertain. Pity. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Thu Feb 12 16:14:08 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 09 17:14:08 +0100 Subject: AW: Macdonell and Whitney Grammars Message-ID: <161227084838.23782.14643721490510781031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oliver Fallon wrote: I already have the scanned pdfs but it would be very useful to get an accurate text document of either of these works. Surely this is a desideratum to compliment available versions of Whitney's Roots and MW's Dictionary? At the risk of stating the obvious: The PDFs of Whitney's "Grammar" (1889) and "Roots" (1885) in the GRETIL e-library (address below) come with a background text, which you can copy and paste into Word (e.g.) - and improve from there, if it should not be accurate enough for your purposes. As for editions of Whitney's "Grammar", I'm not aware that there have been substantial changes after this one, the "2nd revised and enlarged edition" of 1889. Macdonell's "Vedic Grammar" published in the "Grundriss" (1910) is also available from here as a PDF with background text, but not his "Vedic Grammar for Students" (which you probably meant). Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von Oliver Fallon Gesendet: Do 12.02.2009 13:13 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Macdonell and Whitney Grammars Does anyone on the list have information on the availability of etexts of: Macdonell: A Sanskrit Grammar for Students and Whitney: Sanskrit Grammar |(5th ed. 1924) I already have the scanned pdfs but it would be very useful to get an accurate text document of either of these works. Surely this is a desideratum to compliment available versions of Whitney's Roots and MW's Dictionary? With thanks, Oliver Fallon http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volume-v-78.html From eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 12 15:01:20 2009 From: eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 09 20:31:20 +0530 Subject: Macdonell and Whitney Grammars In-Reply-To: <481904.89622.qm@web39701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084832.23782.15303619656799348024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> They are usually printed in India. If you contact Motilal Banarsidass at mlbd at vsnl.com, they should be able to help you. Best, Dean Anderson Oliver Fallon wrote: > Does anyone on the list have information on the availability of etexts of: > > Macdonell: A Sanskrit Grammar for Students > > and > > Whitney: Sanskrit Grammar |(5th ed. 1924) > > I already have the scanned pdfs but it would be very useful to get an accurate text document of either of these works. Surely this is a desideratum to compliment available versions of Whitney's Roots and MW's Dictionary? > > With thanks, > Oliver Fallon > http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volume-v-78.html > > > > > > From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Feb 13 08:19:09 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 09 09:19:09 +0100 Subject: AW: Macdonell and Whitney Grammars [DjVu format at Internet Archive] Message-ID: <161227084847.23782.10664725777234951564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is so much to learn here, though not necessarily with regard to the original question. I still have to figure out what recommends the "Internet Archive" DjVU image files and their unusable "Full Text" alternatives, when there is a GRETIL e-book with a fully searchable background text, standardized diacritics (Whitney) in accented and unaccented versions (Whitney's "Roots"), bookmarks for navigation, etc. This brings me back to the original question: "Does anyone on the list have information on the availability of ETEXTS" of the said works, other than these? http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil_elib/Whi889__Whitney _SanskritGrammar.pdf http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil_elib/Whi885__Whitney _Roots-ACCENTED.pdf http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil_elib/Whi885__Whitney _Roots-UNACCENTED.pdf [For more go here http://opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de/DB=1.20/LNG=EN/ and enter "Whitney", "Macdonell", etc., or click the "All titles" button in the left frame.] Cheers, Reinhold Gr?nendahl On 13 Feb 2009 at 9:46, Richard MAHONEY wrote: > Dear Oliver, > > On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 01:13, Oliver Fallon wrote: > > > Does anyone on the list have information on the availability of etexts > > of: > > > > Macdonell: A Sanskrit Grammar for Students > > > > and > > > > Whitney: Sanskrit Grammar |(5th ed. 1924) > > > > I already have the scanned pdfs but it would be very useful to get an > > accurate text document of either of these works. Surely this is a > > desideratum to compliment available versions of Whitney's Roots and > > MW's Dictionary? > > Yes, when it comes to scanned images, the use of the PDF format > definitely has its limitations. If you wish to view and search scanned > documents the DjVu format is arguably superior: > > DjVu Org :: home page > http://djvu.org/ > > DjVu viewers are freely available for all major operating systems: > > DjVu Org :: downloads (see link to DjVuLibre & DjView) > http://djvu.org/resources/ > > > As for Macdonell and Whitney -- and much else besides, incl. Apte, > B?htlingk, and M-W -- you will find DjVu scans here: > > Internet Archive :: Text Archive > http://www.archive.org/details/texts > > > And for the impatient ;) > > Macdonell (3rd edn, 1926): > > http://www.archive.org/details/sanskritgrammarf014425mbp > > Whitney (1879 x2): > > http://www.archive.org/details/sanskritgrammari00whituoft > > http://www.archive.org/details/sanskritgrammari00whitrich > > Ibid. (1896): > > http://www.archive.org/details/sanskritgrammari00whit > > Ibid. (1950): > > http://www.archive.org/details/1941sanskritgram00whituoft > > > To download any of these versions please follow the `All Files: HTTP' > link within the `View the book' section on the top left of each page. > The DjVu files have `*.djvu' filename extensions. > > > > > Kind regards, > > Richard > > > > -- > Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ > Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 > Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 > OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Thu Feb 12 20:46:06 2009 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 09 09:46:06 +1300 Subject: Macdonell and Whitney Grammars [DjVu format at Internet Archive] Message-ID: <161227084845.23782.8629740440236368067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Oliver, On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 01:13, Oliver Fallon wrote: > Does anyone on the list have information on the availability of etexts > of: > > Macdonell: A Sanskrit Grammar for Students > > and > > Whitney: Sanskrit Grammar |(5th ed. 1924) > > I already have the scanned pdfs but it would be very useful to get an > accurate text document of either of these works. Surely this is a > desideratum to compliment available versions of Whitney's Roots and > MW's Dictionary? Yes, when it comes to scanned images, the use of the PDF format definitely has its limitations. If you wish to view and search scanned documents the DjVu format is arguably superior: DjVu Org :: home page http://djvu.org/ DjVu viewers are freely available for all major operating systems: DjVu Org :: downloads (see link to DjVuLibre & DjView) http://djvu.org/resources/ As for Macdonell and Whitney -- and much else besides, incl. Apte, B?htlingk, and M-W -- you will find DjVu scans here: Internet Archive :: Text Archive http://www.archive.org/details/texts And for the impatient ;) Macdonell (3rd edn, 1926): http://www.archive.org/details/sanskritgrammarf014425mbp Whitney (1879 x2): http://www.archive.org/details/sanskritgrammari00whituoft http://www.archive.org/details/sanskritgrammari00whitrich Ibid. (1896): http://www.archive.org/details/sanskritgrammari00whit Ibid. (1950): http://www.archive.org/details/1941sanskritgram00whituoft To download any of these versions please follow the `All Files: HTTP' link within the `View the book' section on the top left of each page. The DjVu files have `*.djvu' filename extensions. Kind regards, Richard -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From opfallon at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 14 10:47:42 2009 From: opfallon at YAHOO.COM (Oliver Fallon) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 09 02:47:42 -0800 Subject: Macdonell and Whitney Grammars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084849.23782.1265677462773876166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Reinhold and others, Thank you very much for your help with this question. The underlying text of the Internet archive version of Macdonell's Sanskrit Grammar for Students (http://www.archive.org/details/sanskritgrammarf014425mbp) is so inaccurate as to be virtually worthless. The DjVu version is not much use for extraction and processing. The underlying text of the GRETIL scans of Whitney (http://opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de:80/DB=1.20/SET=2/TTL=1/SHW?FRST=1) is very accurate. However there are still some problems: I am interested in creating a fully marked up xml file of this text. Much of the romanised Sanskrit comes out with spacing between individual letters which may have to be manually removed and some of the N?gar? is included which will also need deletion (see pasted section below randomly selected: p. 244, ?647 a,b). b . Root H b h ? bear (given with Vedic accentuation): strong stem-form, fspq" b ? b h a r ; weak, ? ^ J b i b h ? (or b ? b h ? ) . b ? b h a r m i b i b h ? v ? s b i b h ? m ? s b ? b h r e b i b h ? v ? h e b i b h ? m ? h e b ? b h a r ? i b i b h ? t h ? s b i b h ? t h ? b i b h ? ? ? b ? b h r ? t h e b i b h ? d h v ? b ? b h a r t i b i b h ? t ? s b ? b h r a t i b i b h ? t ? b ? b h r ? t e b ? b h r a t e c . The u of h u (like that of the class-signs n u and u : see below, 6 9 7 a ) is said to be omissible before v and m of the endings of 1st du. and p l . : thus, j u h v ? s , j u h v ? h e , etc.; but no such forms are quotable. In the first line above, 'H' is the remnant of N?gar? 'bh?' In the second line 'fspq"' seems to be the remnant of N?gar? 'bibhar' etc. Has any markup already been done on this? If so that would be useful in creating a fully marked up file. Oliver Fallon http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volume-v-78.html http://independent.academia.edu/OliverFallon/Papers > There is so much to learn here, though not necessarily with > regard to the > original question. I still have to figure out what > recommends the "Internet > Archive" DjVU image files and their unusable > "Full Text" alternatives, when > there is a GRETIL e-book with a fully searchable background > text, > standardized diacritics (Whitney) in accented and > unaccented versions > (Whitney's "Roots"), bookmarks for > navigation, etc. > > This brings me back to the original question: > > "Does anyone on the list have information on the > availability of ETEXTS" of > the said works, other than these? > > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil_elib/Whi889__Whitney > _SanskritGrammar.pdf > > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil_elib/Whi885__Whitney > _Roots-ACCENTED.pdf > > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil_elib/Whi885__Whitney > _Roots-UNACCENTED.pdf > > [For more go here > > http://opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de/DB=1.20/LNG=EN/ > > and enter "Whitney", "Macdonell", etc., > > or click the "All titles" button in the left > frame.] > > > > Cheers, > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > From jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 14 17:29:33 2009 From: jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM (girish jha) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 09 09:29:33 -0800 Subject: E-mail ID of Prof P.N. Kawathekar Message-ID: <161227084852.23782.17183283245146681716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Could anyone please give the E-mail ID of Prof. P.N.KAWATHEKAR,a Sanskrit Scholar. Regards, GIRISH K. JHA From jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 14 17:38:45 2009 From: jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM (girish jha) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 09 09:38:45 -0800 Subject: Current discoveries on the date of Kalidasa Message-ID: <161227084855.23782.7072063772426604785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Could anyone please let me know of the current discoveries on the date of Kalidasa and their sources and evidence. Regards, Sincerely GIRISH K. JHA, SANSKRIT,PATNA UNIVERSITY,INDIA? From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Sun Feb 15 06:54:49 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 09 22:54:49 -0800 Subject: E-mail ID of Prof P.N. Kawathekar In-Reply-To: <21908_1234632588_1234632588_202720.49658.qm@web57704.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084857.23782.13309105981719952617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I recall, Prof. Kawathekar passed away some years ago. You may be able to reach his nephew Dr. Vijay V. Rajopadhyay at Dept. of Sanskrit, Daly College, Indore. a.a. On 09/05/24 9:29 AM, "girish jha" wrote: > Dear Indologists, > Could anyone please give the E-mail ID of Prof. P.N.KAWATHEKAR,a Sanskrit > Scholar. > Regards, > GIRISH K. JHA > > > From ocattedra at YAHOO.COM.AR Sun Feb 15 15:06:48 2009 From: ocattedra at YAHOO.COM.AR (olivia cattedra) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 09 07:06:48 -0800 Subject: Dr Pujol .... Message-ID: <161227084861.23782.18331798430853941148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I would need to contact Dr Pujol, from islas Baleares; please,? could someone send me his e mail? thanks you very much in advance, Dra. Olivia Cattedra CONICET - FASTA Argentina Yahoo! Cocina Recetas pr?cticas y comida saludable http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Sun Feb 15 18:41:52 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 09 10:41:52 -0800 Subject: Dr Pujol .... In-Reply-To: <3346_1234710424_1234710424_87003.92705.qm@web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084864.23782.14479024073135188466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If you have Dr. Oskar Pujol in mind, pl try . ashok aklujkar On 09/05/24 7:06 AM, "olivia cattedra" wrote: > I would need to contact Dr Pujol, from islas Baleares; please,? could someone > send me his e mail? From ocattedra at YAHOO.COM.AR Sun Feb 15 20:25:00 2009 From: ocattedra at YAHOO.COM.AR (olivia cattedra) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 09 12:25:00 -0800 Subject: Dr Pujol .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084866.23782.17609709599709240425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, indeed, Dr Oskar Pujol, thank you very much Dr. Aklujkar, greetings. --- El dom 15-feb-09, Ashok Aklujkar escribi?: De: Ashok Aklujkar Asunto: Re: Dr Pujol .... Para: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Fecha: domingo, 15 de febrero de 2009, 3:41 pm If you have Dr. Oskar Pujol in mind, pl try . ashok aklujkar On 09/05/24 7:06 AM, "olivia cattedra" wrote: > I would need to contact Dr Pujol, from islas Baleares; please,? could someone > send me his e mail? Yahoo! Cocina Recetas pr?cticas y comida saludable http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ From Michael.Zimmermann at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Mon Feb 16 14:53:33 2009 From: Michael.Zimmermann at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Michael Zimmermann) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 09 15:53:33 +0100 Subject: MA/PhD Fellowships: Buddhist studies at the University of Hamburg Message-ID: <161227084868.23782.10886829111933783074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Apologies for cross-posting] New Fellowships (MA/PhD) for the Study of Buddhism at the University of Hamburg The Center for Buddhist Studies at the University of Hamburg offers fellowships for up to a maximum of twenty-four months to support MA and doctoral students doing research in Buddhist studies and other fields related to Buddhism. Candidates of all faculties from German/EU or overseas universities are welcome to apply. For more informations: www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de Notice: The deadline is 15 May 2009 For further questions please contact: Dr Barbara Schuler Associate Director Center for Buddhist Studies Asia-Africa-Institute University of Hamburg Edmund-Siemers-Allee 1 20146 Hamburg Germany phone: ++49 (0)40 42838 4831 -- Prof. Dr. Michael Zimmermann Universit?t Hamburg, Asien-Afrika-Institut Abt. Indien und Tibet Edmund-Siemers-Allee 1, Hauptgeb?ude D-20146 Hamburg Germany Tel.: +49-(0)40-42838-3384 Fax: +49-(0)40-42838-6944 Email: Michael.Zimmermann at uni-hamburg.de Hauptgeb?ude, Raum 54 http://www.uni-hamburg.de/Wiss/FB/10/IndienS/index.html http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/ http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/Research.4.0.html?&L=1#c60 From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Tue Feb 17 07:01:23 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 09 08:01:23 +0100 Subject: AW: Macdonell and Whitney Grammars Message-ID: <161227084871.23782.13341580848287815050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 14 Feb 2009 at 2:47, Oliver Fallon wrote: > The underlying text of the GRETIL scans of Whitney > (http://opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de:80/DB=1.20/SET=2/TTL=1/SHW?FRST=1) > is very accurate. However there are still some problems: (...) Much > of the romanised Sanskrit comes out with spacing between individual > letters which may have to be manually removed and some of the N?gar? > is included which will also need deletion (see pasted section below > randomly selected: p. 244, ?647 a,b). Dear Oliver, the erratic spacing is caused by a communication problem between my OCR programme and Adobe Acrobat. No fault of the OCR-programme, I have been assured - which doesn't make it any better. When I did Whitney's Grammar almost a year ago, I didn't have a clue how to work around this problem. Since you drew attention to it I thought this might be the right time to bring out a revision. It is still far from perfect, but there shouldn't be too many spacings left. You can now download it from the same PURL: http://resolver.sub.uni-goettingen.de/purl/?gr_elib-2 Or look it up in the online catalogue: http://opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de/DB=1.20/LNG=EN/ [Unfortunately it doesn't come up on top of the chronological "All titles" list as it should, having today's date. I'll have to sort that out to make sure that future revisions are properly announced.] Kind regards Reinhold ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm From geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR Tue Feb 17 07:57:27 2009 From: geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR (Alexandra Vandergeer) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 09 09:57:27 +0200 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084873.23782.5766910396798082715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sanskritists, Did anyone ever compile a frequency list of Sanskrit nouns, verbs and adjectives in terms of use per 1000 lemmas? Alexandra van der Geer From himal.trikha at UNIVIE.AC.AT Tue Feb 17 10:50:36 2009 From: himal.trikha at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Himal Trikha) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 09 11:50:36 +0100 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084876.23782.14772111106029175803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two pdf-files containing lists of 100 and 3200 words respectively can be downloaded here: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/studium/Studienmaterialien/index.htm The lists are called basic vocabulary ("Sanskrit Grundwortschatz"). I don't know on what criteria the words were selected. Best regards Himal Trikha On 17.02.2009 08:57, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: > Dear Sanskritists, > > Did anyone ever compile a frequency list of Sanskrit nouns, verbs and > adjectives in terms of use per 1000 lemmas? > > Alexandra van der Geer > From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 17 12:14:41 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 09 13:14:41 +0100 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <499A967C.8000704@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227084879.23782.6033046390409625853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> These are very interesting, and no doubt useful. But a quick glance will assure anyone that they are not based on frequency. Is it possible that k?ura is one of the most common words in Skt? It seems to me more likely--I didn't look around to see if this is explained--that this is vocabulary for some reader. So the question of the collection of 'basic vocabulary' in the sense of a list of the most frequent words (perhaps by genre?) remains a desideratum. But some linguistic must have compiled such a list, no? JAS On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Himal Trikha wrote: > Two pdf-files containing lists of 100 and 3200 words respectively can be > downloaded here: > > http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/studium/Studienmaterialien/index.htm > > The lists are called basic vocabulary ("Sanskrit Grundwortschatz"). I don't > know on what criteria the words were selected. > > Best regards > Himal Trikha > > > On 17.02.2009 08:57, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: > >> Dear Sanskritists, >> >> Did anyone ever compile a frequency list of Sanskrit nouns, verbs and >> adjectives in terms of use per 1000 lemmas? >> >> Alexandra van der Geer >> >> -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Tue Feb 17 12:35:19 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 09 13:35:19 +0100 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084881.23782.11736230737182155896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not sure whether the question is even meaningful for classical Sanskrit. Frequency where? In Epic literature? In philosophical literature? In dharmasaastra or Buddhist texts? Each genre has its own special vocabulary, and its own frequencies. Best wishes EF Zitat von Jonathan Silk : > These are very interesting, and no doubt useful. But a quick glance will > assure anyone that they are not based on frequency. Is it possible that > k?ura is one of the most common words in Skt? It seems to me more likely--I > didn't look around to see if this is explained--that this is vocabulary for > some reader. So the question of the collection of 'basic vocabulary' in the > sense of a list of the most frequent words (perhaps by genre?) remains a > desideratum. But some linguistic must have compiled such a list, no? > > JAS > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Himal Trikha > wrote: > >> Two pdf-files containing lists of 100 and 3200 words respectively can be >> downloaded here: >> >> http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/studium/Studienmaterialien/index.htm >> >> The lists are called basic vocabulary ("Sanskrit Grundwortschatz"). I don't >> know on what criteria the words were selected. >> >> Best regards >> Himal Trikha >> >> >> On 17.02.2009 08:57, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: >> >>> Dear Sanskritists, >>> >>> Did anyone ever compile a frequency list of Sanskrit nouns, verbs and >>> adjectives in terms of use per 1000 lemmas? >>> >>> Alexandra van der Geer >>> >>> > > > -- > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Postbus 9515 > 2300 RA Leiden > Netherlands > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Feb 17 14:47:37 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 09 14:47:37 +0000 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084896.23782.14884572457737509410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Alexandra, The new SARIT service can do this. E.g., http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/getwordcount.pl?indologica.0.1 is a wordlist of the Arthasastra, sorted in descending order of frequency. Ca and v? head the list, as one would expect. One can also do Manu. The Intratext service does this too. See http://www.intratext.com/BHI/ There are the Skt texts of the RV, Kasikavrtti and Mahabhasya. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Tue, 17 Feb 2009, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: > Dear Sanskritists, > > Did anyone ever compile a frequency list of Sanskrit nouns, verbs and > adjectives in terms of use per 1000 lemmas? > > Alexandra van der Geer > From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 17 14:38:17 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 09 15:38:17 +0100 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <63f8ba07cee0a922e84a9bf72ef663e9.squirrel@webmail.uoa.gr> Message-ID: <161227084894.23782.4455339122563903764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a quick note (in addition to correcting the misprint pointed out by Jan--yes, of course, linguist!): Whether or not one wants to include the lexicon of Buddhist texts as "Sanskrit"--and there was long ago more than one discussion about this, about whether we also want to speak of Jaina Sanskrit, architectural Sanskrit and so on--the language of these texts is not in any sense "derived from Pali". While the two are related, to be sure, and some portion of Buddhist(ic) Sanskrit vocabulary may have been borrowed or adapted from Middle Indic (--that is, *some* Buddhist[ic] Skt is 'Sanskritized Prakrit'), I am not aware of any case in which it can be shown that the Middle Indic in question is Pali (but I have not looked into this--has anyone?). This is slightly off the topic, but the point is that if one wants to decide to exclude particularly Buddhist lexica from a lexicon of Skt, the grounds for this cannot be that the words are not Skt. On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: > Naturally, but the same is valid for present-day English. Frequency lists > are based on a wide spectrum, including newspapers, books, literature, > spoken language, but not necessarily poems. In the case of Skt, I'd expect > epics, philosophical texts in the broadest sense, shastras, [Buddhist > texts not, likely derived from Pali] to give a reasonable sample of the > Sanskrit language as is. > > And I agree with Jonathan that the lexicon suggested by Himal is likely a > 'useful' vocabulary to read avarage Skt texts. Anyway, thanks Himal for > the suggestion. > > Alexandra van der Geer > Athens > > > I am not sure whether the question is even meaningful for classical > > Sanskrit. Frequency where? In Epic literature? In philosophical > > literature? In dharmasaastra or Buddhist texts? Each genre has its own > > special vocabulary, and its own frequencies. > > Best wishes > > EF > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR Tue Feb 17 13:39:05 2009 From: geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR (Alexandra Vandergeer) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 09 15:39:05 +0200 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <20090217133519.10611k4of327txqf@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227084887.23782.17822911207676798554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Naturally, but the same is valid for present-day English. Frequency lists are based on a wide spectrum, including newspapers, books, literature, spoken language, but not necessarily poems. In the case of Skt, I'd expect epics, philosophical texts in the broadest sense, shastras, [Buddhist texts not, likely derived from Pali] to give a reasonable sample of the Sanskrit language as is. And I agree with Jonathan that the lexicon suggested by Himal is likely a 'useful' vocabulary to read avarage Skt texts. Anyway, thanks Himal for the suggestion. Alexandra van der Geer Athens > I am not sure whether the question is even meaningful for classical > Sanskrit. Frequency where? In Epic literature? In philosophical > literature? In dharmasaastra or Buddhist texts? Each genre has its own > special vocabulary, and its own frequencies. > Best wishes > EF From geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR Tue Feb 17 13:42:11 2009 From: geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR (Alexandra Vandergeer) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 09 15:42:11 +0200 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <891888.87166.qm@web8604.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084889.23782.14294746128049106063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Dipak, for your intensive reply to my humble question! > A few hours' intensive work with Grassmann's Woerterbuch zum Rigveda??may > give a picture of the Rgveda regarding frequency. Grassmann also notes the > immediately related words. As??a source material more spread out in time > and space (and not??informing the context) will be the VVRI Sa.mhitaa > Index??The task too will??be more time consuming with it. I have no access > to the new index by A.Lubotsky's??and cannot tell how far and whether at > all it develops upon Grassmann. > Kuiper gives some statistics of??words of non-Vedic origin in Aryans in > the Rigveda, 1991, Amsterdam??selectively but with precision, and > obviously, often without reference to??the parts of speech or context. > Hoffmann had the habit of giving statistics relating to the words he dealt [etc etc] > All the statistically surveying studies known to me are mostly specific on > meaning, form, mytheme etc and many belong to the level of text-study. > But??studies dealing with various parts of speech should exist > DB From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Tue Feb 17 14:54:35 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 09 15:54:35 +0100 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084899.23782.3188335870389669518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, but this is a special case. Best wishes, EF Quoting Jonathan Silk : > Just a quick note (in addition to correcting the misprint pointed out by > Jan--yes, of course, linguist!): Whether or not one wants to include the > lexicon of Buddhist texts as "Sanskrit"--and there was long ago more than > one discussion about this, about whether we also want to speak of Jaina > Sanskrit, architectural Sanskrit and so on--the language of these texts is > not in any sense "derived from Pali". While the two are related, to be sure, > and some portion of Buddhist(ic) Sanskrit vocabulary may have been borrowed > or adapted from Middle Indic (--that is, *some* Buddhist[ic] Skt is > 'Sanskritized Prakrit'), I am not aware of any case in which it can be shown > that the Middle Indic in question is Pali (but I have not looked into > this--has anyone?). > > This is slightly off the topic, but the point is that if one wants to decide > to exclude particularly Buddhist lexica from a lexicon of Skt, the grounds > for this cannot be that the words are not Skt. > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Alexandra Vandergeer > wrote: > >> Naturally, but the same is valid for present-day English. Frequency lists >> are based on a wide spectrum, including newspapers, books, literature, >> spoken language, but not necessarily poems. In the case of Skt, I'd expect >> epics, philosophical texts in the broadest sense, shastras, [Buddhist >> texts not, likely derived from Pali] to give a reasonable sample of the >> Sanskrit language as is. >> >> And I agree with Jonathan that the lexicon suggested by Himal is likely a >> 'useful' vocabulary to read avarage Skt texts. Anyway, thanks Himal for >> the suggestion. >> >> Alexandra van der Geer >> Athens >> >> > I am not sure whether the question is even meaningful for classical >> > Sanskrit. Frequency where? In Epic literature? In philosophical >> > literature? In dharmasaastra or Buddhist texts? Each genre has its own >> > special vocabulary, and its own frequencies. >> > Best wishes >> > EF >> > > > > -- > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Postbus 9515 > 2300 RA Leiden > Netherlands > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Feb 17 13:31:45 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 09 19:01:45 +0530 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084884.23782.11378122192287934594.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few hours' intensive work with Grassmann's Woerterbuch zum Rigveda?may give a picture of the Rgveda regarding frequency. Grassmann also notes the immediately related words. As?a source material more spread out in time and space (and not?informing the context) will be the VVRI Sa.mhitaa Index?The task too will?be more time consuming with it. I have no access to the new index by A.Lubotsky's?and cannot tell how far and whether at all it develops upon Grassmann. Kuiper gives some statistics of?words of non-Vedic origin in Aryans in the Rigveda, 1991, Amsterdam?selectively but with precision, and obviously, often without reference to?the parts of speech or context. Hoffmann had the habit of giving statistics relating to the words he dealt with. The statistics of the adverbial and nominal use?with full?and comparative account of the circumstances of occurrence of angiras and angirasva(n)t in the Rgveda was dealt with in Mythological and ritual symbolism, Calcutta 1984.?Statistics?of the function and employment of the ablative?with pronominals in the Rgveda and Atharvaveda may be found in 'The Veds Texts, Language and Ritual' Groningen 2004: 181--215. Unfortunately I have not access to? most of the works of?T.Elizarenkova but her 'An approach to the description of the contents of the Rgveda'(M?langes d'indianisme a l m?moire de Louis Renou) is an imaginative ground work on which a part of the desired type of statistics can be attempted. Gonda (Epithets in the Rgveda) evaluates the epithets more qualitatively than quantitatively but it can be used for the desired purpose.?? All the statistically surveying studies known to me are mostly specific on meaning, form, mytheme etc and many belong to the level of text-study. But?studies dealing with various parts of speech should exist DB ? ? --- On Tue, 17/2/09, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: From: Alexandra Vandergeer Subject: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 17 February, 2009, 1:27 PM Dear Sanskritists, Did anyone ever compile a frequency list of Sanskrit nouns, verbs and adjectives in terms of use per 1000 lemmas? Alexandra van der Geer Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Feb 17 13:48:51 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 09 19:18:51 +0530 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <2d592a4442699ef2d109188287966201.squirrel@webmail.uoa.gr> Message-ID: <161227084891.23782.7680563979163329849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 17 feb 09 I am not responsible for the grotesque?appearance of the mail. Barring A.Lubotsky's?for A.Lubotsky there was no error in the letter by me. Something should be done about that. DB --- On Tue, 17/2/09, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: From: Alexandra Vandergeer Subject: Re: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 17 February, 2009, 7:12 PM Thanks, Dipak, for your intensive reply to my humble question! > A few hours' intensive work with Grassmann's Woerterbuch zum Rigveda??may > give a picture of the Rgveda regarding frequency. Grassmann also notes the > immediately related words. As??a source material more spread out in time > and space (and not??informing the context) will be the VVRI Sa.mhitaa > Index??The task too will??be more time consuming with it. I have no access > to the new index by A.Lubotsky's??and cannot tell how far and whether at > all it develops upon Grassmann. > Kuiper gives some statistics of??words of non-Vedic origin in Aryans in > the Rigveda, 1991, Amsterdam??selectively but with precision, and > obviously, often without reference to??the parts of speech or context. > Hoffmann had the habit of giving statistics relating to the words he dealt [etc etc] > All the statistically surveying studies known to me are mostly specific on > meaning, form, mytheme etc and many belong to the level of text-study. > But??studies dealing with various parts of speech should exist > DB Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/ From annamisia at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 18 09:54:44 2009 From: annamisia at YAHOO.COM (Anna A. Slaczka) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 09 01:54:44 -0800 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <3418f2a000ae641dba298a616a6766e0.squirrel@webmail.uoa.gr> Message-ID: <161227084911.23782.16574709751020191438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, modern spoken/written Sanskrit is certainly heavily influenced by modern Indian languages, especially Hindi. Anna. Anna A. Slaczka Leiden University The Netherlands --- On Wed, 2/18/09, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: > From: Alexandra Vandergeer > Subject: Re: frequencies > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 9:37 AM > That makes it even more interesting to perform statistical > tests. When you > read Latin descriptions of new species in the 19th century, > you can't help > seeing a native language substratum underlying this > 'Latin'. Why this > wouldn't have been the case for Sanskrit? Everybody > repeats the same, > Sanskrit is pure, holy and so on, but has this ever been > measured? Being > holy doesn't make it vulnerable to impacts from a > 'lower' level, including > the bazaar, if you like. Also Sanskrit suffered from an > evolution from > within, so to say. > > (I'm not a linguist either; even if my phd is on a > linguistic subject, I'm > more interested in the statistics of language use than in > the derivation > of word stems :-) ). > > Alexandra > > > Obviously Sanskrit is a language functioning in a > timeless never-never > > world. It is the language of the Brahmanical sacred > world-order. Thus it > > would probably never have been meant to be a vehicle > of daily > > communication. > > Sanskrit is timeless, pure and holy, at least > certainly since the second > > millenium (C.E.). The use of Sanskrit by Buddhists in > the first millenium > > is > > certainly remarkable. Could it indicate a strong > tendency on the part of > > Buddhists to adapt themselves even more to Brahmanical > norms than the > > texts > > of the Pali canon seem to indicate? The comparison > with Hebrew is > > interesting, for Hebrew is another ancient sacred > language of scriptures > > and > > not of daily communication on worldly matters. Latin > and Arabic also > > developed these tendencies. > > But I'm no linguist. > > Victor van Bijlert > > > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens > > franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE > > Verzonden: dinsdag 17 februari 2009 15:55 > > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Onderwerp: Re: frequencies > > > > Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as > in English and > > other modern languges. It is possible to complie a > list of 3000 words > > in English that cover 70-80% of "all" > conversations, newspaper > > articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case > of Sanskrit--if > > it were possible, it would have been done a long time > ago--because the > > vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary > genres. On the > > other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one > can go back and > > forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, > something that cannot > > be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew > is an exception, > > but this is a special case. > > Best wishes, > > EF > > > > > > > > > > Quoting Jonathan Silk : > > > >> Just a quick note (in addition to correcting the > misprint pointed out by > >> Jan--yes, of course, linguist!): Whether or not > one wants to include the > >> lexicon of Buddhist texts as > "Sanskrit"--and there was long ago more > >> than > >> one discussion about this, about whether we also > want to speak of Jaina > >> Sanskrit, architectural Sanskrit and so on--the > language of these texts > >> is > >> not in any sense "derived from Pali". > While the two are related, to be > > sure, > >> and some portion of Buddhist(ic) Sanskrit > vocabulary may have been > > borrowed > >> or adapted from Middle Indic (--that is, *some* > Buddhist[ic] Skt is > >> 'Sanskritized Prakrit'), I am not aware of > any case in which it can be > > shown > >> that the Middle Indic in question is Pali (but I > have not looked into > >> this--has anyone?). > >> > >> This is slightly off the topic, but the point is > that if one wants to > > decide > >> to exclude particularly Buddhist lexica from a > lexicon of Skt, the > >> grounds > >> for this cannot be that the words are not Skt. > >> > >> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Alexandra > Vandergeer > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Naturally, but the same is valid for > present-day English. Frequency > >>> lists > >>> are based on a wide spectrum, including > newspapers, books, literature, > >>> spoken language, but not necessarily poems. In > the case of Skt, I'd > > expect > >>> epics, philosophical texts in the broadest > sense, shastras, [Buddhist > >>> texts not, likely derived from Pali] to give a > reasonable sample of the > >>> Sanskrit language as is. > >>> > >>> And I agree with Jonathan that the lexicon > suggested by Himal is likely > >>> a > >>> 'useful' vocabulary to read avarage > Skt texts. Anyway, thanks Himal for > >>> the suggestion. > >>> > >>> Alexandra van der Geer > >>> Athens > >>> > >>> > I am not sure whether the question is > even meaningful for classical > >>> > Sanskrit. Frequency where? In Epic > literature? In philosophical > >>> > literature? In dharmasaastra or Buddhist > texts? Each genre has its > >>> own > >>> > special vocabulary, and its own > frequencies. > >>> > Best wishes > >>> > EF > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> J. Silk > >> Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > >> Postbus 9515 > >> 2300 RA Leiden > >> Netherlands > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet > Messaging Program. > > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Wed Feb 18 08:03:39 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 09 09:03:39 +0100 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <20090217155435.17175hqr0rfcsecr@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227084904.23782.5064991924563940526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Obviously Sanskrit is a language functioning in a timeless never-never world. It is the language of the Brahmanical sacred world-order. Thus it would probably never have been meant to be a vehicle of daily communication. Sanskrit is timeless, pure and holy, at least certainly since the second millenium (C.E.). The use of Sanskrit by Buddhists in the first millenium is certainly remarkable. Could it indicate a strong tendency on the part of Buddhists to adapt themselves even more to Brahmanical norms than the texts of the Pali canon seem to indicate? The comparison with Hebrew is interesting, for Hebrew is another ancient sacred language of scriptures and not of daily communication on worldly matters. Latin and Arabic also developed these tendencies. But I'm no linguist. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Verzonden: dinsdag 17 februari 2009 15:55 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: frequencies Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, but this is a special case. Best wishes, EF Quoting Jonathan Silk : > Just a quick note (in addition to correcting the misprint pointed out by > Jan--yes, of course, linguist!): Whether or not one wants to include the > lexicon of Buddhist texts as "Sanskrit"--and there was long ago more than > one discussion about this, about whether we also want to speak of Jaina > Sanskrit, architectural Sanskrit and so on--the language of these texts is > not in any sense "derived from Pali". While the two are related, to be sure, > and some portion of Buddhist(ic) Sanskrit vocabulary may have been borrowed > or adapted from Middle Indic (--that is, *some* Buddhist[ic] Skt is > 'Sanskritized Prakrit'), I am not aware of any case in which it can be shown > that the Middle Indic in question is Pali (but I have not looked into > this--has anyone?). > > This is slightly off the topic, but the point is that if one wants to decide > to exclude particularly Buddhist lexica from a lexicon of Skt, the grounds > for this cannot be that the words are not Skt. > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Alexandra Vandergeer > wrote: > >> Naturally, but the same is valid for present-day English. Frequency lists >> are based on a wide spectrum, including newspapers, books, literature, >> spoken language, but not necessarily poems. In the case of Skt, I'd expect >> epics, philosophical texts in the broadest sense, shastras, [Buddhist >> texts not, likely derived from Pali] to give a reasonable sample of the >> Sanskrit language as is. >> >> And I agree with Jonathan that the lexicon suggested by Himal is likely a >> 'useful' vocabulary to read avarage Skt texts. Anyway, thanks Himal for >> the suggestion. >> >> Alexandra van der Geer >> Athens >> >> > I am not sure whether the question is even meaningful for classical >> > Sanskrit. Frequency where? In Epic literature? In philosophical >> > literature? In dharmasaastra or Buddhist texts? Each genre has its own >> > special vocabulary, and its own frequencies. >> > Best wishes >> > EF >> > > > > -- > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Postbus 9515 > 2300 RA Leiden > Netherlands > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Wed Feb 18 08:06:55 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 09 09:06:55 +0100 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084906.23782.2056215207595020696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think we should also take into consideration that Sanskrit is by definition an artificial language. The word itself means after all something like: purified, perfected. It stood in contrast to the Prakrits, the natural languages (of the Aryan elites?). Being an artificial language, Sanskrit would not have the same features as a spoken contact language used in the bazaars. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Alexandra Vandergeer Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 8:18 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: frequencies Correct, but does it also hold for the top100 of used words? I doubt so, I personally think that the highly specialized vocabularies, or jargons, fall in a lower category, except of course of the name and ways of address of the deity in a purana devoted to that particular deity and so on and so on. Anyway it would be interesting to see whether indeed the different genres in Skt texts are so different as we generally assume, restricting ourselves to the top100. It would be equally interesting to see whether there is a shift in language use throughout the centuries in the high-frequency words. Alexandra > Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and > other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words > in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper > articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if > it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the > vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the > other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and > forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot > be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, > but this is a special case. > Best wishes, > EF From geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR Wed Feb 18 07:17:33 2009 From: geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR (Alexandra Vandergeer) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 09 09:17:33 +0200 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <20090217155435.17175hqr0rfcsecr@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227084901.23782.11782910289504400512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Correct, but does it also hold for the top100 of used words? I doubt so, I personally think that the highly specialized vocabularies, or jargons, fall in a lower category, except of course of the name and ways of address of the deity in a purana devoted to that particular deity and so on and so on. Anyway it would be interesting to see whether indeed the different genres in Skt texts are so different as we generally assume, restricting ourselves to the top100. It would be equally interesting to see whether there is a shift in language use throughout the centuries in the high-frequency words. Alexandra > Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and > other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words > in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper > articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if > it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the > vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the > other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and > forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot > be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, > but this is a special case. > Best wishes, > EF From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Feb 18 16:16:17 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 09 10:16:17 -0600 Subject: frequencies Message-ID: <161227084928.23782.6644310534799250157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One way to deal with frequencies in Skt., that would perhaps get around the problem of genre, raised by Eli, would be to focus on the question not of words, but of which roots are the most productive, and then to look at the particular derivations of those roots that are most frequent within any given genre. This would of course not include particles, pronouns, numerals, and underived nouns and adjectives, however. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR Wed Feb 18 08:37:48 2009 From: geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR (Alexandra Vandergeer) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 09 10:37:48 +0200 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <2C035BBEFD1E4DFFBE42AB2FF64F3711@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227084909.23782.17850162302752403555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That makes it even more interesting to perform statistical tests. When you read Latin descriptions of new species in the 19th century, you can't help seeing a native language substratum underlying this 'Latin'. Why this wouldn't have been the case for Sanskrit? Everybody repeats the same, Sanskrit is pure, holy and so on, but has this ever been measured? Being holy doesn't make it vulnerable to impacts from a 'lower' level, including the bazaar, if you like. Also Sanskrit suffered from an evolution from within, so to say. (I'm not a linguist either; even if my phd is on a linguistic subject, I'm more interested in the statistics of language use than in the derivation of word stems :-) ). Alexandra > Obviously Sanskrit is a language functioning in a timeless never-never > world. It is the language of the Brahmanical sacred world-order. Thus it > would probably never have been meant to be a vehicle of daily > communication. > Sanskrit is timeless, pure and holy, at least certainly since the second > millenium (C.E.). The use of Sanskrit by Buddhists in the first millenium > is > certainly remarkable. Could it indicate a strong tendency on the part of > Buddhists to adapt themselves even more to Brahmanical norms than the > texts > of the Pali canon seem to indicate? The comparison with Hebrew is > interesting, for Hebrew is another ancient sacred language of scriptures > and > not of daily communication on worldly matters. Latin and Arabic also > developed these tendencies. > But I'm no linguist. > Victor van Bijlert > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens > franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE > Verzonden: dinsdag 17 februari 2009 15:55 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: frequencies > > Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and > other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words > in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper > articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if > it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the > vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the > other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and > forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot > be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, > but this is a special case. > Best wishes, > EF > > > > > Quoting Jonathan Silk : > >> Just a quick note (in addition to correcting the misprint pointed out by >> Jan--yes, of course, linguist!): Whether or not one wants to include the >> lexicon of Buddhist texts as "Sanskrit"--and there was long ago more >> than >> one discussion about this, about whether we also want to speak of Jaina >> Sanskrit, architectural Sanskrit and so on--the language of these texts >> is >> not in any sense "derived from Pali". While the two are related, to be > sure, >> and some portion of Buddhist(ic) Sanskrit vocabulary may have been > borrowed >> or adapted from Middle Indic (--that is, *some* Buddhist[ic] Skt is >> 'Sanskritized Prakrit'), I am not aware of any case in which it can be > shown >> that the Middle Indic in question is Pali (but I have not looked into >> this--has anyone?). >> >> This is slightly off the topic, but the point is that if one wants to > decide >> to exclude particularly Buddhist lexica from a lexicon of Skt, the >> grounds >> for this cannot be that the words are not Skt. >> >> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Alexandra Vandergeer >> wrote: >> >>> Naturally, but the same is valid for present-day English. Frequency >>> lists >>> are based on a wide spectrum, including newspapers, books, literature, >>> spoken language, but not necessarily poems. In the case of Skt, I'd > expect >>> epics, philosophical texts in the broadest sense, shastras, [Buddhist >>> texts not, likely derived from Pali] to give a reasonable sample of the >>> Sanskrit language as is. >>> >>> And I agree with Jonathan that the lexicon suggested by Himal is likely >>> a >>> 'useful' vocabulary to read avarage Skt texts. Anyway, thanks Himal for >>> the suggestion. >>> >>> Alexandra van der Geer >>> Athens >>> >>> > I am not sure whether the question is even meaningful for classical >>> > Sanskrit. Frequency where? In Epic literature? In philosophical >>> > literature? In dharmasaastra or Buddhist texts? Each genre has its >>> own >>> > special vocabulary, and its own frequencies. >>> > Best wishes >>> > EF >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden >> Postbus 9515 >> 2300 RA Leiden >> Netherlands >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 18 10:52:51 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 09 10:52:51 +0000 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <3418f2a000ae641dba298a616a6766e0.squirrel@webmail.uoa.gr> Message-ID: <161227084916.23782.3180227959105257633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree with Alexandra. I also think that one mustn't put the cart before the onager. There exists a corpus of language material called "Sanskrit", and it is therefore available for corpus-analysis, just like the British National Corpus (http://www.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/using) or any other similar project. One can dream up all sorts of fascinating questions to ask of the material. One can attend to the layering of the material, or the division into subject fields. Following the analysis, one may arrive at interesting or unexpected conclusions, try to explain them sociologically, etc. etc. I feel certain that there are undiscovered patterns of syntax and usage in Sanskrit that probably persisted over very long periods of time. Eli's assertion that one can't analyse the stuff because it's so hermetically divided by genre is itself something it would be interesting to test quantitively. This kind of work might, for example, show a clearer distinction than any of us are currently aware of between core usage and extended genre-specific usage (in lexemes, syntax, etc.). One of the main interests of corpus analysis in other languages has been precisely that generally held assumptions about language use have been overturned and that all sorts of interesting features have been discovered that nobody previously knew about. Incidentally, the generation of Sanskrit scholars working in the 19th century, Roth, Aufrecht, Boehtlingk and others, treated the Veda very much as a closed corpus, and this attitude informed to some extent to their approaches to the rest of Skt literature. There was a clear underlying assumption that it could all be definitively grasped, submitted to lexical analysis, and nailed down. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Wed, 18 Feb 2009, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: > That makes it even more interesting to perform statistical tests. When you > read Latin descriptions of new species in the 19th century, you can't help > seeing a native language substratum underlying this 'Latin'. Why this > wouldn't have been the case for Sanskrit? Everybody repeats the same, > Sanskrit is pure, holy and so on, but has this ever been measured? Being > holy doesn't make it vulnerable to impacts from a 'lower' level, including > the bazaar, if you like. Also Sanskrit suffered from an evolution from > within, so to say. > > (I'm not a linguist either; even if my phd is on a linguistic subject, I'm > more interested in the statistics of language use than in the derivation > of word stems :-) ). > > Alexandra > >> Obviously Sanskrit is a language functioning in a timeless never-never >> world. It is the language of the Brahmanical sacred world-order. Thus it >> would probably never have been meant to be a vehicle of daily >> communication. >> Sanskrit is timeless, pure and holy, at least certainly since the second >> millenium (C.E.). The use of Sanskrit by Buddhists in the first millenium >> is >> certainly remarkable. Could it indicate a strong tendency on the part of >> Buddhists to adapt themselves even more to Brahmanical norms than the >> texts >> of the Pali canon seem to indicate? The comparison with Hebrew is >> interesting, for Hebrew is another ancient sacred language of scriptures >> and >> not of daily communication on worldly matters. Latin and Arabic also >> developed these tendencies. >> But I'm no linguist. >> Victor van Bijlert >> >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens >> franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE >> Verzonden: dinsdag 17 februari 2009 15:55 >> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Onderwerp: Re: frequencies >> >> Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and >> other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words >> in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper >> articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if >> it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the >> vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the >> other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and >> forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot >> be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, >> but this is a special case. >> Best wishes, >> EF >> >> >> >> >> Quoting Jonathan Silk : >> >>> Just a quick note (in addition to correcting the misprint pointed out by >>> Jan--yes, of course, linguist!): Whether or not one wants to include the >>> lexicon of Buddhist texts as "Sanskrit"--and there was long ago more >>> than >>> one discussion about this, about whether we also want to speak of Jaina >>> Sanskrit, architectural Sanskrit and so on--the language of these texts >>> is >>> not in any sense "derived from Pali". While the two are related, to be >> sure, >>> and some portion of Buddhist(ic) Sanskrit vocabulary may have been >> borrowed >>> or adapted from Middle Indic (--that is, *some* Buddhist[ic] Skt is >>> 'Sanskritized Prakrit'), I am not aware of any case in which it can be >> shown >>> that the Middle Indic in question is Pali (but I have not looked into >>> this--has anyone?). >>> >>> This is slightly off the topic, but the point is that if one wants to >> decide >>> to exclude particularly Buddhist lexica from a lexicon of Skt, the >>> grounds >>> for this cannot be that the words are not Skt. >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Alexandra Vandergeer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Naturally, but the same is valid for present-day English. Frequency >>>> lists >>>> are based on a wide spectrum, including newspapers, books, literature, >>>> spoken language, but not necessarily poems. In the case of Skt, I'd >> expect >>>> epics, philosophical texts in the broadest sense, shastras, [Buddhist >>>> texts not, likely derived from Pali] to give a reasonable sample of the >>>> Sanskrit language as is. >>>> >>>> And I agree with Jonathan that the lexicon suggested by Himal is likely >>>> a >>>> 'useful' vocabulary to read avarage Skt texts. Anyway, thanks Himal for >>>> the suggestion. >>>> >>>> Alexandra van der Geer >>>> Athens >>>> >>>>> I am not sure whether the question is even meaningful for classical >>>>> Sanskrit. Frequency where? In Epic literature? In philosophical >>>>> literature? In dharmasaastra or Buddhist texts? Each genre has its >>>> own >>>>> special vocabulary, and its own frequencies. >>>>> Best wishes >>>>> EF >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> J. Silk >>> Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden >>> Postbus 9515 >>> 2300 RA Leiden >>> Netherlands >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. >> > From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Feb 18 16:22:54 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 09 11:22:54 -0500 Subject: frequencies Message-ID: <161227084930.23782.11183745634018229610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is it not possible that the language of the hymns (or at least some of them) was largely an artificial one, at least that it exploited every possibility of the language for artifice, artifice which might extend to morphology as well as imagery? And is it not also possible that at some stage, without the use of writing, archaic vocabulary and archaic grammatical features which had fallen out of the everyday spoken language were preserved for the production of new hymns? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >>> Dipak Bhattacharya 2/18/2009 11:06:54 AM >>> 09 02 18 Victor's observations pertain to post-Paa.ninian Classical Sanskrit. But early Vedic was a living language with a Vedic dialectal base. There was no Prakrit (that has a system different from the one common to Classical Sanskrit and Vedic) around in say 1000 BCE. The fact that post-Paa.ninian records outnumber Vedic ones is no reason for forgetting the reality of the Vedic dialects. To observations like "Sanskrit is by definition an artificial language" one must add "if we do not regard Vedic as Sanskrit" But that does not stand. DB --- On Wed, 18/2/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 1:36 PM I think we should also take into consideration that Sanskrit is by definition an artificial language. The word itself means after all something like: purified, perfected. It stood in contrast to the Prakrits, the natural languages (of the Aryan elites?). Being an artificial language, Sanskrit would not have the same features as a spoken contact language used in the bazaars. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Alexandra Vandergeer Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 8:18 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: frequencies Correct, but does it also hold for the top100 of used words? I doubt so, I personally think that the highly specialized vocabularies, or jargons, fall in a lower category, except of course of the name and ways of address of the deity in a purana devoted to that particular deity and so on and so on. Anyway it would be interesting to see whether indeed the different genres in Skt texts are so different as we generally assume, restricting ourselves to the top100. It would be equally interesting to see whether there is a shift in language use throughout the centuries in the high-frequency words. Alexandra > Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and > other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words > in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper > articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if > it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the > vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the > other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and > forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot > be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, > but this is a special case. > Best wishes, > EF Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 18 11:23:02 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 09 11:23:02 +0000 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <36F07841F1034100880FFFFED4054E4F@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227084923.23782.16377104323030765918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 18 Feb 2009, victor van Bijlert wrote: > I do agree that statistical and other analysis of the corpus of Sanskrit > texts would deliver interesting insights, for instance in the way technical > terms were invented by different sects in order to separate themselves off > from the 'competition'. Perhaps one could see in the Sanskrit texts > interference with the mothertongues of the authors. I think texts of Jains > and Buddhists should be included. > Victor I think the examples of research you outline above are not necessarily the kind of result that can be found from corpus analysis. The corpus doesn't know, e.g., what a "technical term" is, unless it's be so tagged, and that tagging is based on prejudgement. The BNC page I cited mentions questions like these: In what social situations is wicked a term of approval? Why does it "sound wrong" to say "The good weather set in on Thursday" although "The bad weather set in on Thursday" is perfectly acceptable? If I can say "I live a stone's throw away from here", can I also say "I'm going a stone's throw away from here?" I'm not sure that I would even agree with the suggestion above that we can find out causes (answer "Why?" questions). Language is, in the end, just what people say and what passes between people in such a manner that they believe they understand each other. But maybe I'm wrong about that. Best, Dominik From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Feb 18 10:43:11 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 09 11:43:11 +0100 Subject: GRETIL e-library / INFO Message-ID: <161227084913.23782.8417912723177603648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The INFO page of the GRETIL e-library has now been updated: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm RG ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Wed Feb 18 11:05:22 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 09 12:05:22 +0100 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <3418f2a000ae641dba298a616a6766e0.squirrel@webmail.uoa.gr> Message-ID: <161227084918.23782.9616251968476826305.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The holiness of Sanskrit derives from the fact that it is the medium of communication of Brahminical values, and it is the language of ritual and of the mantras. Of course, even Sanskrit is constantly 'polluted' by the vernaculars. The idea of modern Sanskrit as a spoken language is, to my mind, an interesting example of Brahminical invention of tradition. Victor -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Alexandra Vandergeer Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 9:38 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: frequencies That makes it even more interesting to perform statistical tests. When you read Latin descriptions of new species in the 19th century, you can't help seeing a native language substratum underlying this 'Latin'. Why this wouldn't have been the case for Sanskrit? Everybody repeats the same, Sanskrit is pure, holy and so on, but has this ever been measured? Being holy doesn't make it vulnerable to impacts from a 'lower' level, including the bazaar, if you like. Also Sanskrit suffered from an evolution from within, so to say. (I'm not a linguist either; even if my phd is on a linguistic subject, I'm more interested in the statistics of language use than in the derivation of word stems :-) ). Alexandra > Obviously Sanskrit is a language functioning in a timeless never-never > world. It is the language of the Brahmanical sacred world-order. Thus it > would probably never have been meant to be a vehicle of daily > communication. > Sanskrit is timeless, pure and holy, at least certainly since the second > millenium (C.E.). The use of Sanskrit by Buddhists in the first millenium > is > certainly remarkable. Could it indicate a strong tendency on the part of > Buddhists to adapt themselves even more to Brahmanical norms than the > texts > of the Pali canon seem to indicate? The comparison with Hebrew is > interesting, for Hebrew is another ancient sacred language of scriptures > and > not of daily communication on worldly matters. Latin and Arabic also > developed these tendencies. > But I'm no linguist. > Victor van Bijlert > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens > franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE > Verzonden: dinsdag 17 februari 2009 15:55 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: frequencies > > Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and > other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words > in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper > articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if > it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the > vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the > other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and > forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot > be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, > but this is a special case. > Best wishes, > EF > > > > > Quoting Jonathan Silk : > >> Just a quick note (in addition to correcting the misprint pointed out by >> Jan--yes, of course, linguist!): Whether or not one wants to include the >> lexicon of Buddhist texts as "Sanskrit"--and there was long ago more >> than >> one discussion about this, about whether we also want to speak of Jaina >> Sanskrit, architectural Sanskrit and so on--the language of these texts >> is >> not in any sense "derived from Pali". While the two are related, to be > sure, >> and some portion of Buddhist(ic) Sanskrit vocabulary may have been > borrowed >> or adapted from Middle Indic (--that is, *some* Buddhist[ic] Skt is >> 'Sanskritized Prakrit'), I am not aware of any case in which it can be > shown >> that the Middle Indic in question is Pali (but I have not looked into >> this--has anyone?). >> >> This is slightly off the topic, but the point is that if one wants to > decide >> to exclude particularly Buddhist lexica from a lexicon of Skt, the >> grounds >> for this cannot be that the words are not Skt. >> >> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Alexandra Vandergeer >> wrote: >> >>> Naturally, but the same is valid for present-day English. Frequency >>> lists >>> are based on a wide spectrum, including newspapers, books, literature, >>> spoken language, but not necessarily poems. In the case of Skt, I'd > expect >>> epics, philosophical texts in the broadest sense, shastras, [Buddhist >>> texts not, likely derived from Pali] to give a reasonable sample of the >>> Sanskrit language as is. >>> >>> And I agree with Jonathan that the lexicon suggested by Himal is likely >>> a >>> 'useful' vocabulary to read avarage Skt texts. Anyway, thanks Himal for >>> the suggestion. >>> >>> Alexandra van der Geer >>> Athens >>> >>> > I am not sure whether the question is even meaningful for classical >>> > Sanskrit. Frequency where? In Epic literature? In philosophical >>> > literature? In dharmasaastra or Buddhist texts? Each genre has its >>> own >>> > special vocabulary, and its own frequencies. >>> > Best wishes >>> > EF >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden >> Postbus 9515 >> 2300 RA Leiden >> Netherlands >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Wed Feb 18 11:09:39 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 09 12:09:39 +0100 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084920.23782.1588180226881027612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do agree that statistical and other analysis of the corpus of Sanskrit texts would deliver interesting insights, for instance in the way technical terms were invented by different sects in order to separate themselves off from the 'competition'. Perhaps one could see in the Sanskrit texts interference with the mothertongues of the authors. I think texts of Jains and Buddhists should be included. Victor -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dominik Wujastyk Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 11:53 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: frequencies I agree with Alexandra. I also think that one mustn't put the cart before the onager. There exists a corpus of language material called "Sanskrit", and it is therefore available for corpus-analysis, just like the British National Corpus (http://www.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/using) or any other similar project. One can dream up all sorts of fascinating questions to ask of the material. One can attend to the layering of the material, or the division into subject fields. Following the analysis, one may arrive at interesting or unexpected conclusions, try to explain them sociologically, etc. etc. I feel certain that there are undiscovered patterns of syntax and usage in Sanskrit that probably persisted over very long periods of time. Eli's assertion that one can't analyse the stuff because it's so hermetically divided by genre is itself something it would be interesting to test quantitively. This kind of work might, for example, show a clearer distinction than any of us are currently aware of between core usage and extended genre-specific usage (in lexemes, syntax, etc.). One of the main interests of corpus analysis in other languages has been precisely that generally held assumptions about language use have been overturned and that all sorts of interesting features have been discovered that nobody previously knew about. Incidentally, the generation of Sanskrit scholars working in the 19th century, Roth, Aufrecht, Boehtlingk and others, treated the Veda very much as a closed corpus, and this attitude informed to some extent to their approaches to the rest of Skt literature. There was a clear underlying assumption that it could all be definitively grasped, submitted to lexical analysis, and nailed down. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Wed, 18 Feb 2009, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: > That makes it even more interesting to perform statistical tests. When you > read Latin descriptions of new species in the 19th century, you can't help > seeing a native language substratum underlying this 'Latin'. Why this > wouldn't have been the case for Sanskrit? Everybody repeats the same, > Sanskrit is pure, holy and so on, but has this ever been measured? Being > holy doesn't make it vulnerable to impacts from a 'lower' level, including > the bazaar, if you like. Also Sanskrit suffered from an evolution from > within, so to say. > > (I'm not a linguist either; even if my phd is on a linguistic subject, I'm > more interested in the statistics of language use than in the derivation > of word stems :-) ). > > Alexandra > >> Obviously Sanskrit is a language functioning in a timeless never-never >> world. It is the language of the Brahmanical sacred world-order. Thus it >> would probably never have been meant to be a vehicle of daily >> communication. >> Sanskrit is timeless, pure and holy, at least certainly since the second >> millenium (C.E.). The use of Sanskrit by Buddhists in the first millenium >> is >> certainly remarkable. Could it indicate a strong tendency on the part of >> Buddhists to adapt themselves even more to Brahmanical norms than the >> texts >> of the Pali canon seem to indicate? The comparison with Hebrew is >> interesting, for Hebrew is another ancient sacred language of scriptures >> and >> not of daily communication on worldly matters. Latin and Arabic also >> developed these tendencies. >> But I'm no linguist. >> Victor van Bijlert >> >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens >> franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE >> Verzonden: dinsdag 17 februari 2009 15:55 >> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Onderwerp: Re: frequencies >> >> Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and >> other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words >> in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper >> articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if >> it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the >> vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the >> other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and >> forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot >> be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, >> but this is a special case. >> Best wishes, >> EF >> >> >> >> >> Quoting Jonathan Silk : >> >>> Just a quick note (in addition to correcting the misprint pointed out by >>> Jan--yes, of course, linguist!): Whether or not one wants to include the >>> lexicon of Buddhist texts as "Sanskrit"--and there was long ago more >>> than >>> one discussion about this, about whether we also want to speak of Jaina >>> Sanskrit, architectural Sanskrit and so on--the language of these texts >>> is >>> not in any sense "derived from Pali". While the two are related, to be >> sure, >>> and some portion of Buddhist(ic) Sanskrit vocabulary may have been >> borrowed >>> or adapted from Middle Indic (--that is, *some* Buddhist[ic] Skt is >>> 'Sanskritized Prakrit'), I am not aware of any case in which it can be >> shown >>> that the Middle Indic in question is Pali (but I have not looked into >>> this--has anyone?). >>> >>> This is slightly off the topic, but the point is that if one wants to >> decide >>> to exclude particularly Buddhist lexica from a lexicon of Skt, the >>> grounds >>> for this cannot be that the words are not Skt. >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Alexandra Vandergeer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Naturally, but the same is valid for present-day English. Frequency >>>> lists >>>> are based on a wide spectrum, including newspapers, books, literature, >>>> spoken language, but not necessarily poems. In the case of Skt, I'd >> expect >>>> epics, philosophical texts in the broadest sense, shastras, [Buddhist >>>> texts not, likely derived from Pali] to give a reasonable sample of the >>>> Sanskrit language as is. >>>> >>>> And I agree with Jonathan that the lexicon suggested by Himal is likely >>>> a >>>> 'useful' vocabulary to read avarage Skt texts. Anyway, thanks Himal for >>>> the suggestion. >>>> >>>> Alexandra van der Geer >>>> Athens >>>> >>>>> I am not sure whether the question is even meaningful for classical >>>>> Sanskrit. Frequency where? In Epic literature? In philosophical >>>>> literature? In dharmasaastra or Buddhist texts? Each genre has its >>>> own >>>>> special vocabulary, and its own frequencies. >>>>> Best wishes >>>>> EF >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> J. Silk >>> Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden >>> Postbus 9515 >>> 2300 RA Leiden >>> Netherlands >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. >> > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Feb 18 16:06:54 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 09 21:36:54 +0530 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084925.23782.4049059005822518209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 09 02 18 Victor's observations pertain to post-Paa.ninian Classical Sanskrit. But early Vedic was a living language with a Vedic dialectal base. There was no Prakrit?(that has a system different from the one common to Classical Sanskrit and Vedic) around in say 1000 BCE. The fact that post-Paa.ninian records outnumber Vedic ones is no?reason for forgetting the reality of the Vedic dialects. To observations like "Sanskrit is by definition an artificial language" one must add "if we do not regard Vedic as Sanskrit" But that does not stand. DB --- On Wed, 18/2/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 1:36 PM I think we should also take into consideration that Sanskrit is by definition an artificial language. The word itself means after all something like: purified, perfected. It stood in contrast to the Prakrits, the natural languages (of the Aryan elites?). Being an artificial language, Sanskrit would not have the same features as a spoken contact language used in the bazaars. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Alexandra Vandergeer Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 8:18 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: frequencies Correct, but does it also hold for the top100 of used words? I doubt so, I personally think that the highly specialized vocabularies, or jargons, fall in a lower category, except of course of the name and ways of address of the deity in a purana devoted to that particular deity and so on and so on. Anyway it would be interesting to see whether indeed the different genres in Skt texts are so different as we generally assume, restricting ourselves to the top100. It would be equally interesting to see whether there is a shift in language use throughout the centuries in the high-frequency words. Alexandra > Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and > other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words > in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper > articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if > it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the > vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the > other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and > forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot > be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, > but this is a special case. > Best wishes, > EF Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Wed Feb 18 22:39:29 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 09 23:39:29 +0100 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084932.23782.17054055843921798259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Actually, I am also not certain. But I know for a fact that a word like bhaava can mean innumerable things depending on the context and the kind of text. In any case, it would perhaps be possible to discover the artificiality of Sanskrit if one could discover how simple word acquire very complicated and unlikely meanings. Moreover, I think one should bear in mind that Sanskrit is only studied through fixed and written texts, texts that were composed with a purpose. The obvious comparison with English as in your examples may perhaps not work in Sanskrit. I do not believe Sanskrit was ever meant to be used as an ordinary living language but rather as a kind of learned and sacred Esperanto for elevated subjects. The fact that in principle Sanskrit texts from the twentieth century would not be unintellible to a reader from the first century is remarkable. Sanskrit never changed in grammar, perhaps a little in style and syntax. This might indicate that the language was always conceived of as 'eternal' and meant to formulate 'eternal matters'. Victor -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dominik Wujastyk Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 12:23 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: frequencies On Wed, 18 Feb 2009, victor van Bijlert wrote: > I do agree that statistical and other analysis of the corpus of Sanskrit > texts would deliver interesting insights, for instance in the way technical > terms were invented by different sects in order to separate themselves off > from the 'competition'. Perhaps one could see in the Sanskrit texts > interference with the mothertongues of the authors. I think texts of Jains > and Buddhists should be included. > Victor I think the examples of research you outline above are not necessarily the kind of result that can be found from corpus analysis. The corpus doesn't know, e.g., what a "technical term" is, unless it's be so tagged, and that tagging is based on prejudgement. The BNC page I cited mentions questions like these: In what social situations is wicked a term of approval? Why does it "sound wrong" to say "The good weather set in on Thursday" although "The bad weather set in on Thursday" is perfectly acceptable? If I can say "I live a stone's throw away from here", can I also say "I'm going a stone's throw away from here?" I'm not sure that I would even agree with the suggestion above that we can find out causes (answer "Why?" questions). Language is, in the end, just what people say and what passes between people in such a manner that they believe they understand each other. But maybe I'm wrong about that. Best, Dominik From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Feb 19 05:21:52 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 05:21:52 +0000 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <367927.56526.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084941.23782.17311887549171483045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Moreover, standard dialects exist everywhere. The BBC does not allow > Cockney in speeches delivered through it. Does it? And does that make > Standard British English an artificial language? Um, yes, the BBC does include what is referred to more neutrally as "Estuary English" in radio broadcasts, all the time. The BBC long ago ceased to cast itself as an arbiter of linguistic performance. Being judgemental about dialect in England is still such a minefield that the institutions can't possibly take hard positions. Like the OED, the BBC sees its job in this area as representative rather than didactic. It remains true, though, that there are more Received Pronunciation speakers at peak times and in critical slots like the evening news. Interestingly, a slight Scottish accent is widely perceived in S. England as attractive, authoritative, and correct. D From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Thu Feb 19 02:57:27 2009 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 08:27:27 +0530 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084934.23782.9236543841218221047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Amarakosa says "samskrtam krtrime laksanopete" whereby it is indicated that Sanskrit is artificial and perfect. Regards K.Maheswaran Nair Trivandrum Quoting victor van Bijlert : > I think we should also take into consideration that Sanskrit is by > definition an artificial language. The word itself means after all something > like: purified, perfected. It stood in contrast to the Prakrits, the natural > languages (of the Aryan elites?). Being an artificial language, Sanskrit > would not have the same features as a spoken contact language used in the > bazaars. > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Alexandra Vandergeer > Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 8:18 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: frequencies > > Correct, but does it also hold for the top100 of used words? I doubt so, I > personally think that the highly specialized vocabularies, or jargons, > fall in a lower category, except of course of the name and ways of address > of the deity in a purana devoted to that particular deity and so on and so > on. Anyway it would be interesting to see whether indeed the different > genres in Skt texts are so different as we generally assume, restricting > ourselves to the top100. It would be equally interesting to see whether > there is a shift in language use throughout the centuries in the > high-frequency words. > > Alexandra > >> Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and >> other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words >> in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper >> articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if >> it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the >> vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the >> other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and >> forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot >> be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, >> but this is a special case. >> Best wishes, >> EF > From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Thu Feb 19 08:29:18 2009 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 08:29:18 +0000 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084959.23782.16175116837794507411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Actually I think you'll find that there is a dual number in Homeric Greek, but as an alternative, not compulsory as the Sanskrit dual is. (I have no Homeric grammar to hand at present to check this.) It also has a locative (on place names) and other familiar features. Many languages have a strongly artificial element to them, but they don't always stay artificial. A case in point is Italian, which as I understand it was originally a language of literature and culture (developed from the Tuscan dialect), in the days when, in daily life, the Italian people spoke a number of widely different dialects. Here too there is (or was until recently) a slow rate of linguistic change: I am told that a modern Italian can still sit down and read Dante (1265-1321) with the aid of a few notes, whereas the modern English speaker needs a course in Middle English (or a translation) to tackle Chaucer (around a hundred years later). Valerie J Roebuck At 9:39 am +0200 19/2/09, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: >Well, the tense system in Homeric Greek (and modern Greek, though to a >lesser extent of course) is as complicated as that of Sanskrit. The dual >number is, however, lacking. But what does that prove? Duality can be very >easily skipped using additional pronouns such as 'both'. > > >> > writing, archaic vocabulary and archaic grammatical features which had >> fallen >> out of the everyday spoken language were preserved for the production of >> new >> hymns?> >> What prompts one to explore such possibilities of which there is noB hints >> in the literature? Why should not the same hold good for Homer? And then >> why not extend the same argument to speculate upon the artificiality of >> Homeric Greek?B It is absurd and just luxury in speculation to assume >> that a language that has parallels should have been created artificially >> without a dialectal base and then a literature should be produced. At >> least that is not a linguist's standpoint.B >> Something akin happened to Classical Sanskrit. But that took place when it >> B when it lost its dialectal base. >> Moreover, standard dialects exist everywhere. The BBC does not allow >> Cockney in speeches delivered through it. Does it? And does that make >> Standard British English an artificial language? >> DB >> >> --- On Wed, 18/2/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: >> >> From: Allen W Thrasher >> Subject: Re: frequencies >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 9:52 PM >> >> Is it not possible that the language of the hymns (or at least some of >> them) was >> largely an artificial one, at least that it exploited every possibility of >> the >> language for artifice, artifice which might extend to morphology as well >> as >> imagery? And is it not also possible that at some stage, without the use >> of >> writing, archaic vocabulary and archaic grammatical features which had >> fallen >> out of the everyday spoken language were preserved for the production of >> new >> hymns? >> >> Allen >> >> >> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >> Senior Reference Librarian >> Team Coordinator >> South Asia Team, Asian Division >> Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 >> 101 Independence Ave., S.E. >> Washington, DC 20540-4810 >> tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov >> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of >> Congress. >> >>>>> Dipak Bhattacharya 2/18/2009 >> 11:06:54 AM >>> >> >> 09 02 18 >> Victor's observations pertain to post-Paa.ninian Classical Sanskrit. But >> early Vedic was a living language with a Vedic dialectal base. There was >> no >> Prakrit (that has a system different from the one common to Classical >> Sanskrit >> and Vedic) around in say 1000 BCE. The fact that post-Paa.ninian records >> outnumber Vedic ones is no reason for forgetting the reality of the Vedic >> dialects. To observations like "Sanskrit is by definition an artificial > > language" one must add "if we do not regard Vedic as Sanskrit" >> But that does not stand. >> DB >> --- On Wed, 18/2/09, victor van Bijlert >> wrote: >> >> From: victor van Bijlert >> Subject: Re: frequencies >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 1:36 PM >> >> I think we should also take into consideration that Sanskrit is by >> definition an artificial language. The word itself means after all >> something >> like: purified, perfected. It stood in contrast to the Prakrits, the >> natural >> languages (of the Aryan elites?). Being an artificial language, Sanskrit >> would not have the same features as a spoken contact language used in the >> bazaars. >> >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Alexandra >> Vandergeer >> Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 8:18 >> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Onderwerp: Re: frequencies >> >> Correct, but does it also hold for the top100 of used words? I doubt so, I >> personally think that the highly specialized vocabularies, or jargons, >> fall in a lower category, except of course of the name and ways of address >> of the deity in a purana devoted to that particular deity and so on and so >> on. Anyway it would be interesting to see whether indeed the different >> genres in Skt texts are so different as we generally assume, restricting >> ourselves to the top100. It would be equally interesting to see whether >> there is a shift in language use throughout the centuries in the >> high-frequency words. >> >> Alexandra >> >>> Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and >>> other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words >>> in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper >>> articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if >>> it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the >>> vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the >>> other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and >>> forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot >>> be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, >>> but this is a special case. >>> Best wishes, >>> EF >> >> >> >> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to >> http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >> >> >> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on >> http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ >> From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Thu Feb 19 07:45:35 2009 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 08:45:35 +0100 Subject: John Mitchiner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084950.23782.11102947768956150693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should greatly appreciate it if anyone could give me the contact information for Dr. John Mitchiner. Many thanks, Ken Kenneth Zysk Department of Asian Studies University of Copenhagen Ph: +45 3532 8832 Leifsgade 33,5 Fax: +45 3532 8835 DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Thu Feb 19 08:03:25 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 09:03:25 +0100 Subject: John Mitchiner In-Reply-To: <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB057F9FFE@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227084953.23782.6646131365557341988.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I remember to have "found" John Mitchiner in 2001 (see infra) I do not know if this email is still working With best wishes Christophe Vielle >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John Mitchiner >> Sent: 20 November 2001 09:20 >> To: 'vielle at ori.uci.ac.be' >> Cc: 'Klaus.Karttunen at Helsinki.Fi' >> Subject: Gargiya Jyotisa >> >> Dear Christophe, >> >> Congratulations on tracking me down! I hope you did not have too much >> difficulty doing so. >> >> I was fascinated to learn from your e-mail of the current interest - of >> Klaus Karttunen and others - in an edition of the Gargiya-Jyotisa. My own >> work in editing the Yuga-Purana chapter of that work was undertaken >> largely in 1978-79; the Asiatic Society took a little while before >> publishing it in 1986. Thereafter I joined the British diplomatic service >> in 1980, and I have regrettably not had the chance to take up further work >> on the Gargiya-Jyotisa. My only subsequent work in this connection has >> been to discover two additional manuscripts of the >> Yuga-Purana/Gargiya-Jyotisa. These are mentioned in my short article "The >> Yuga-Purana: A Footnote" published in BSOAS LIII part 2, 1990, pp.320-322. >> They will also be incorporated in a second edition of my book "The Yuga >> Purana" which the Asiatic Society is in the process of sending to press. >> >> Back in 1992 Prof Michio Yano of Kyoto Sangyo University sought my advice >> on a copy of a Gargiya-Jyotisa manuscript he had obtained through Pingree. >> It may be that he or one of his students had thoughts of preparing an >> edition of the work. But I do not know whether anything came of this. >> >> I should be most interested to hear if you come across anyone who is >> preparing such an edition. >> >> With best wishes, >> >> (Dr) John Mitchiner >> British Deputy High Commissioner >> Kolkata > [John Mitchiner was before that found in Bern by Peter Schreiner, in 1992 see Indology List archives, s.v. Mitchiner: Date: Tue, 2 Jun 92 17:21:19 +0100 Reply-To: Indology discussion list Sender: Indology discussion list From: Dominik Wujastyk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: John Mitchiner located Status: RO Peter Schreiner informs me that \begin{quotation} > Concerning the whereabouts of John E. Mitchiner I happen to know that > he is working at the British Embassy in Berne, Switzerland. The address > is: > c/o British Embassy > Thunstr. 50 > CH-3005 Berne > Tel. off. 445021, res. 9218656 (or 588656) > > I am going to meet Dr. Mitchiner next week and may be able to tell you > more about him thereafter. \end{quotation} Thanks, Peter, Dominik -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 19 08:28:10 2009 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 09:28:10 +0100 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <891888.87166.qm@web8604.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084956.23782.1777196538872088014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At present, practically all sanskrit lexicographic works published in Europe, India or elsewhere is for up to 90-100% based on the work done from 1855-1875 by Otto B?htlingk and Rudolph Roth (!) It is well-known that this applies to Monier-Williams' dictionary (see his own introduction which understates his dependency), but it also applies to seemingly independent works such as V.S. Apte's Skt-English dictionary, and to a lesser extent even Taranath Tarkavacaspati's Vacaspatyam (1873) -- which is now being digitized in a project by Varakhedi et al. -- is "contaminated" with hypothetical etymologies of B?htlingk&Roth. Before statistics can be done on sanskrit words we have to answer the question: on which level? Do we consider bhuutasya independent and different from bhuute; and from bhavati? On the root-level, rough indications of frequencies -- largely based on B?htlingk's and Roth's indications -- are given in Whitney's Roots ... (grammarians' roots = very rare or hypothetical; V+ = present in Vedic and later texts; etc.). The primary need for sanskrit studies before or together with a frequency analysis of words within a certain sanskrit corpus (taking into account dhaatus and ga.nas) would perhaps be the setting up of a Sanskrit WordNet, as already exists for Hindi (on the IIT Bombay website, http://www.cfilt.iitb.ac.in/wordnet/webhwn/index.php; sequence within synset according to relative frequency). On verbal roots to be used in a Sanskrit WordNet see contribution of M. Kulkarni and P. Bhattacharya to the second International Symposium on Sanskrit Computatinal Linguistics accessible through http://www.sanskritlibrary.org/Symposium. Oliver Hellwig's site ( sanskritreader.de) can be used to get (absolute) frequencies of words -- from general, syntactical to technical, from ca to paarada -- in texts of the very specific domain of rasavidyaa. Jan Houben On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:31 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya < dbhattacharya2004 at yahoo.co.in> wrote: > A few hours' intensive work with Grassmann's Woerterbuch zum Rigveda may > give a picture of the Rgveda regarding frequency. Grassmann also notes the > immediately related words. As a source material more spread out in time and > space (and not informing the context) will be the VVRI Sa.mhitaa Index The > task too will be more time consuming with it. I have no access to the new > index by A.Lubotsky's and cannot tell how far and whether at all it develops > upon Grassmann. > Kuiper gives some statistics of words of non-Vedic origin in Aryans in the > Rigveda, 1991, Amsterdam selectively but with precision, and obviously, > often without reference to the parts of speech or context. Hoffmann had the > habit of giving statistics relating to the words he dealt with. The > statistics of the adverbial and nominal use with full and comparative > account of the circumstances of occurrence of angiras and angirasva(n)t in > the Rgveda was dealt with in Mythological and ritual symbolism, Calcutta > 1984. Statistics of the function and employment of the ablative with > pronominals in the Rgveda and Atharvaveda may be found in 'The Veds Texts, > Language and Ritual' Groningen 2004: 181--215. Unfortunately I have not > access to most of the works of T.Elizarenkova but her 'An approach to the > description of the contents of the Rgveda'(M?langes d'indianisme a l m?moire > de Louis Renou) is an imaginative ground work on which a part of the desired > type of statistics can be attempted. Gonda (Epithets in the Rgveda) > evaluates the epithets more qualitatively than quantitatively but it can be > used for the desired purpose. > All the statistically surveying studies known to me are mostly specific on > meaning, form, mytheme etc and many belong to the level of text-study. > But studies dealing with various parts of speech should exist > DB > > > --- On Tue, 17/2/09, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: > > From: Alexandra Vandergeer > Subject: frequencies > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Tuesday, 17 February, 2009, 1:27 PM > > Dear Sanskritists, > > Did anyone ever compile a frequency list of Sanskrit nouns, verbs and > adjectives in terms of use per 1000 lemmas? > > Alexandra van der Geer > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > -- Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP, A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. JEMHouben at gmail.com www.jyotistoma.nl From geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR Thu Feb 19 07:32:34 2009 From: geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR (Alexandra Vandergeer) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 09:32:34 +0200 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <20090218101617.BSO64466@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227084945.23782.18167832749357796702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think it's precisely there where we'll find the most frequent words, I mean in the "particles, pronouns, numerals, and underived nouns and adjectives" Alexandra > One way to deal with frequencies in Skt., that > would perhaps get around the problem of genre, > raised by Eli, would be to focus on the question > not of words, but of which roots are the most > productive, and then to look at the particular > derivations of those roots that are most > frequent within any given genre. This would of > course not include particles, pronouns, numerals, > and underived nouns and adjectives, however. > > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > From geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR Thu Feb 19 07:39:25 2009 From: geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR (Alexandra Vandergeer) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 09:39:25 +0200 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <367927.56526.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084947.23782.9968104624662775312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, the tense system in Homeric Greek (and modern Greek, though to a lesser extent of course) is as complicated as that of Sanskrit. The dual number is, however, lacking. But what does that prove? Duality can be very easily skipped using additional pronouns such as 'both'. > writing, archaic vocabulary and archaic grammatical features which had > fallen > out of the everyday spoken language were preserved for the production of > new > hymns?> > What prompts one to explore such possibilities of which there is no??hints > in the literature? Why should not the same hold good for Homer? And then > why not extend the same argument to speculate upon the artificiality of > Homeric Greek??? It is absurd and just luxury in speculation to assume > that a language that has parallels should have been created artificially > without a dialectal base and then a literature should be produced. At > least that is not a linguist's standpoint.?? > Something akin happened to Classical Sanskrit. But that took place when it > ??when it lost its dialectal base. > Moreover, standard dialects exist everywhere. The BBC does not allow > Cockney in speeches delivered through it. Does it? And does that make > Standard British English an artificial language? > DB > > --- On Wed, 18/2/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > > From: Allen W Thrasher > Subject: Re: frequencies > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 9:52 PM > > Is it not possible that the language of the hymns (or at least some of > them) was > largely an artificial one, at least that it exploited every possibility of > the > language for artifice, artifice which might extend to morphology as well > as > imagery? And is it not also possible that at some stage, without the use > of > writing, archaic vocabulary and archaic grammatical features which had > fallen > out of the everyday spoken language were preserved for the production of > new > hymns? > > Allen > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of > Congress. > >>>> Dipak Bhattacharya 2/18/2009 > 11:06:54 AM >>> > > 09 02 18 > Victor's observations pertain to post-Paa.ninian Classical Sanskrit. But > early Vedic was a living language with a Vedic dialectal base. There was > no > Prakrit (that has a system different from the one common to Classical > Sanskrit > and Vedic) around in say 1000 BCE. The fact that post-Paa.ninian records > outnumber Vedic ones is no reason for forgetting the reality of the Vedic > dialects. To observations like "Sanskrit is by definition an artificial > language" one must add "if we do not regard Vedic as Sanskrit" > But that does not stand. > DB > --- On Wed, 18/2/09, victor van Bijlert > wrote: > > From: victor van Bijlert > Subject: Re: frequencies > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 1:36 PM > > I think we should also take into consideration that Sanskrit is by > definition an artificial language. The word itself means after all > something > like: purified, perfected. It stood in contrast to the Prakrits, the > natural > languages (of the Aryan elites?). Being an artificial language, Sanskrit > would not have the same features as a spoken contact language used in the > bazaars. > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Alexandra > Vandergeer > Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 8:18 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: frequencies > > Correct, but does it also hold for the top100 of used words? I doubt so, I > personally think that the highly specialized vocabularies, or jargons, > fall in a lower category, except of course of the name and ways of address > of the deity in a purana devoted to that particular deity and so on and so > on. Anyway it would be interesting to see whether indeed the different > genres in Skt texts are so different as we generally assume, restricting > ourselves to the top100. It would be equally interesting to see whether > there is a shift in language use throughout the centuries in the > high-frequency words. > > Alexandra > >> Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and >> other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words >> in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper >> articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if >> it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the >> vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the >> other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and >> forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot >> be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, >> but this is a special case. >> Best wishes, >> EF > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu Feb 19 04:25:15 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 09:55:15 +0530 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <20090218T112254Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084936.23782.12521709027958176980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What prompts one to explore such possibilities of which there is no?hints in the literature? Why should not the same hold good for Homer? And then why not extend the same argument to speculate upon the artificiality of Homeric Greek?? It is absurd and just luxury in speculation to assume that a language that has parallels should have been created artificially without a dialectal base and then a literature should be produced. At least that is not a linguist's standpoint.? Something akin happened to Classical Sanskrit. But that took place when it ?when it lost its dialectal base. Moreover, standard dialects exist everywhere. The BBC does not allow Cockney in speeches delivered through it. Does it? And does that make Standard British English an artificial language? DB --- On Wed, 18/2/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: From: Allen W Thrasher Subject: Re: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 9:52 PM Is it not possible that the language of the hymns (or at least some of them) was largely an artificial one, at least that it exploited every possibility of the language for artifice, artifice which might extend to morphology as well as imagery? And is it not also possible that at some stage, without the use of writing, archaic vocabulary and archaic grammatical features which had fallen out of the everyday spoken language were preserved for the production of new hymns? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >>> Dipak Bhattacharya 2/18/2009 11:06:54 AM >>> 09 02 18 Victor's observations pertain to post-Paa.ninian Classical Sanskrit. But early Vedic was a living language with a Vedic dialectal base. There was no Prakrit (that has a system different from the one common to Classical Sanskrit and Vedic) around in say 1000 BCE. The fact that post-Paa.ninian records outnumber Vedic ones is no reason for forgetting the reality of the Vedic dialects. To observations like "Sanskrit is by definition an artificial language" one must add "if we do not regard Vedic as Sanskrit" But that does not stand. DB --- On Wed, 18/2/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 1:36 PM I think we should also take into consideration that Sanskrit is by definition an artificial language. The word itself means after all something like: purified, perfected. It stood in contrast to the Prakrits, the natural languages (of the Aryan elites?). Being an artificial language, Sanskrit would not have the same features as a spoken contact language used in the bazaars. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Alexandra Vandergeer Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 8:18 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: frequencies Correct, but does it also hold for the top100 of used words? I doubt so, I personally think that the highly specialized vocabularies, or jargons, fall in a lower category, except of course of the name and ways of address of the deity in a purana devoted to that particular deity and so on and so on. Anyway it would be interesting to see whether indeed the different genres in Skt texts are so different as we generally assume, restricting ourselves to the top100. It would be equally interesting to see whether there is a shift in language use throughout the centuries in the high-frequency words. Alexandra > Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and > other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words > in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper > articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if > it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the > vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the > other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and > forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot > be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, > but this is a special case. > Best wishes, > EF Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Thu Feb 19 09:00:09 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 10:00:09 +0100 Subject: "Visit SANSKNET while you can" Message-ID: <161227084964.23782.9290583067742049903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apologies for distracting from more important issues, but this may be the window of opportunity for all those who know the SANSKNET project only by hearsay (or from the numerous links on the GRETIL main page) to actually visit the site: http://sansknet.ac.in/ In the last few years it has been more off than on, but yesterday I discovered that it is online again. When there, click "Content" to start a tour through a labyrinth of e-texts. This is not the place to dicuss the pros (e.g., range of material) and cons (encodings, atomization of texts, layout etc.). There are lots of valuable material there, altough it may be difficult to use. Alternatively, you may use the GRETIL versions provided for many of these texts (with more to follow). They have been converted to romanized Unicode (and alternative encodings), reformatted, and supplied with additional material, references, etc. Compare, e.g., the Brhadaranyaka-Upanisad on SANSKNET (special fonts required) http://sansknet.ac.in/upanishads/shankarabhashya/Brhadaranyakopanishad/index. htm and the converted version on GRETIL http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gret_utf.htm#BrhUp Regards Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu Feb 19 04:40:54 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 10:10:54 +0530 Subject: Fw: Re: Sanskrit as an artificial language Message-ID: <161227084939.23782.6168824099596513158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One more question. What?had been?the language?that Asokan Prakrit sprang from? Did that have a dual number in its declensional?strucure??Did that have four tense systems each with the same modal endings? These features are lacking in MIA. ?If they did not have it how did Vedic have it? Artificially? Then Greek too must have created?such a system?artificially following its Vedic sister. I hope this will bring home the absurdity of the argument. I regret the typographical error in?my previous mail. ? DB --- On Thu, 19/2/09, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: frequencies To: "Indology" Date: Thursday, 19 February, 2009, 9:55 AM What prompts one to explore such possibilities of which there is no?hint in the literature? Why should not the same hold good for Homer? And then why not extend the same argument to speculate upon the artificiality of Homeric Greek?? It is absurd and just luxury in speculation to assume that a language that has parallels should have been created artificially without a dialectal base and then a literature should be produced. At least that is not a linguist's standpoint.? Something akin happened to Classical Sanskrit. But that took place when it ?when it lost its dialectal base. Moreover, standard dialects exist everywhere. The BBC does not allow Cockney in speeches delivered through it. Does it? And does that make Standard British English an artificial language? DB --- On Wed, 18/2/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: From: Allen W Thrasher Subject: Re: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 9:52 PM Is it not possible that the language of the hymns (or at least some of them) was largely an artificial one, at least that it exploited every possibility of the language for artifice, artifice which might extend to morphology as well as imagery? And is it not also possible that at some stage, without the use of writing, archaic vocabulary and archaic grammatical features which had fallen out of the everyday spoken language were preserved for the production of new hymns? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >>> Dipak Bhattacharya 2/18/2009 11:06:54 AM >>> 09 02 18 Victor's observations pertain to post-Paa.ninian Classical Sanskrit. But early Vedic was a living language with a Vedic dialectal base. There was no Prakrit (that has a system different from the one common to Classical Sanskrit and Vedic) around in say 1000 BCE. The fact that post-Paa.ninian records outnumber Vedic ones is no reason for forgetting the reality of the Vedic dialects. To observations like "Sanskrit is by definition an artificial language" one must add "if we do not regard Vedic as Sanskrit" But that does not stand. DB --- On Wed, 18/2/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 1:36 PM I think we should also take into consideration that Sanskrit is by definition an artificial language. The word itself means after all something like: purified, perfected. It stood in contrast to the Prakrits, the natural languages (of the Aryan elites?). Being an artificial language, Sanskrit would not have the same features as a spoken contact language used in the bazaars. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Alexandra Vandergeer Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 8:18 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: frequencies Correct, but does it also hold for the top100 of used words? I doubt so, I personally think that the highly specialized vocabularies, or jargons, fall in a lower category, except of course of the name and ways of address of the deity in a purana devoted to that particular deity and so on and so on. Anyway it would be interesting to see whether indeed the different genres in Skt texts are so different as we generally assume, restricting ourselves to the top100. It would be equally interesting to see whether there is a shift in language use throughout the centuries in the high-frequency words. Alexandra > Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and > other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words > in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper > articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if > it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the > vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the > other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and > forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot > be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, > but this is a special case. > Best wishes, > EF Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Click here. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From hellwig7 at GMX.DE Thu Feb 19 10:13:57 2009 From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 10:13:57 +0000 Subject: frequencies Message-ID: <161227084976.23782.12938729978635355736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Recently, I performed a study on the etymological composition of post- Vedic texts, which was based on a large electronic corpus. The rates of Dravidian and Austro-Asiatic words change dramatically and statistically highly significant from the epics until the 15th century which makes it even possible to date texts (at least approximately) if you only know the rates of Dravidian words etc. contained in them. I think such results clearly support the assumption that Sanskrit was not a dead, holy, or completely codified language, but showed traces of a regular linguistic development. However, many more (statistical) studies need to be conducted until we will be able to understand the linguistic development of later Sanskrit. Best, Oliver From klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Thu Feb 19 08:55:58 2009 From: klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 10:55:58 +0200 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084962.23782.2563093183449010227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It would be interesting to study the roots of the common Sanskrit dictionaries. The influence of B?htlingk & Roth has been enormous, but there were other sources, notably the famous early Sanskrit- English dictionary edited by H. H. Wilson (1819, 2nd ed. 1831). Long ago I was checking the definition of some ritual terms in various dictionaries and noted that Apte had often copied, in a slightly condensed form, the very words of some longer definitions from Wilson. By the way, Wilson is the dictionary R?ckert is said to have copied by hand as the book was too expensive. Klaus Karttunen On Feb 19, 2009, at 10:28 AM, Jan Houben wrote: > At present, practically all sanskrit lexicographic works published in > Europe, India or elsewhere is for up to 90-100% based on the work > done from > 1855-1875 by Otto B?htlingk and Rudolph Roth (!) > It is well-known that this applies to Monier-Williams' dictionary > (see his > own introduction which understates his dependency), but it also > applies > to seemingly independent works such as V.S. Apte's Skt-English > dictionary, > and to a lesser extent even Taranath Tarkavacaspati's Vacaspatyam > (1873) -- > which is now being digitized in a project by Varakhedi et al. -- is > "contaminated" with hypothetical etymologies of B?htlingk&Roth. Before > statistics can be done on sanskrit words we have to answer the > question: on > which level? Do we consider bhuutasya independent and different > from bhuute; > and from bhavati? On the root-level, rough indications of > frequencies -- > largely based on B?htlingk's and Roth's indications -- are given in > Whitney's Roots ... (grammarians' roots = very rare or > hypothetical; V+ = > present in Vedic and later texts; etc.). > The primary need for sanskrit studies before or together with a > frequency > analysis of words within a certain sanskrit corpus (taking into > account > dhaatus and ga.nas) would perhaps be the setting up of a Sanskrit > WordNet, > as already exists for Hindi (on the IIT Bombay website, > http://www.cfilt.iitb.ac.in/wordnet/webhwn/index.php; sequence > within synset > according to relative frequency). On verbal roots to be used in a > Sanskrit > WordNet see contribution of M. Kulkarni and P. Bhattacharya to the > second > International Symposium on Sanskrit Computatinal Linguistics > accessible > through http://www.sanskritlibrary.org/Symposium. Oliver Hellwig's > site ( > sanskritreader.de) can be used to get (absolute) frequencies of > words -- > from general, syntactical to technical, from ca to paarada -- in > texts of > the very specific domain of rasavidyaa. > > Jan Houben > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:31 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya < > dbhattacharya2004 at yahoo.co.in> wrote: > >> A few hours' intensive work with Grassmann's Woerterbuch zum >> Rigveda may >> give a picture of the Rgveda regarding frequency. Grassmann also >> notes the >> immediately related words. As a source material more spread out in >> time and >> space (and not informing the context) will be the VVRI Sa.mhitaa >> Index The >> task too will be more time consuming with it. I have no access to >> the new >> index by A.Lubotsky's and cannot tell how far and whether at all >> it develops >> upon Grassmann. >> Kuiper gives some statistics of words of non-Vedic origin in >> Aryans in the >> Rigveda, 1991, Amsterdam selectively but with precision, and >> obviously, >> often without reference to the parts of speech or context. >> Hoffmann had the >> habit of giving statistics relating to the words he dealt with. The >> statistics of the adverbial and nominal use with full and comparative >> account of the circumstances of occurrence of angiras and angirasva >> (n)t in >> the Rgveda was dealt with in Mythological and ritual symbolism, >> Calcutta >> 1984. Statistics of the function and employment of the ablative with >> pronominals in the Rgveda and Atharvaveda may be found in 'The >> Veds Texts, >> Language and Ritual' Groningen 2004: 181--215. Unfortunately I >> have not >> access to most of the works of T.Elizarenkova but her 'An >> approach to the >> description of the contents of the Rgveda'(M?langes d'indianisme a >> l m?moire >> de Louis Renou) is an imaginative ground work on which a part of >> the desired >> type of statistics can be attempted. Gonda (Epithets in the Rgveda) >> evaluates the epithets more qualitatively than quantitatively but >> it can be >> used for the desired purpose. >> All the statistically surveying studies known to me are mostly >> specific on >> meaning, form, mytheme etc and many belong to the level of text- >> study. >> But studies dealing with various parts of speech should exist >> DB >> >> >> --- On Tue, 17/2/09, Alexandra Vandergeer >> wrote: >> >> From: Alexandra Vandergeer >> Subject: frequencies >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Tuesday, 17 February, 2009, 1:27 PM >> >> Dear Sanskritists, >> >> Did anyone ever compile a frequency list of Sanskrit nouns, verbs and >> adjectives in terms of use per 1000 lemmas? >> >> Alexandra van der Geer >> >> >> >> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to >> http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >> > > > > -- > Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, > Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP, > A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, > 75005 Paris -- France. > JEMHouben at gmail.com > www.jyotistoma.nl > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Thu Feb 19 09:59:59 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 10:59:59 +0100 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <367927.56526.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084971.23782.9354933173077877165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Homeric Greek probably also did not reflect a spoken language. Of course, originally a complicated form of Vedic Sanskrit must have been a spoken language, even a language of communication. But this is guesswork. One could perhaps only prove something by looking at parallels like ancient Iranian and other related Indo-European languages. Artificiality of Sanskrit does not mean it never was a spoken contact language, but it must have frozen into a sacred language quite early in time. The Prakrits simply further developed into contact (?) languages. The point I should have perhaps emphasised is that I cannot conceive Sanskrit to be a mothertongue. The premodern linguistic situation was always in the plural. One grew up with many languages: mother-tongue, contactlanguages and a sacred standard version of a (dead) language. This situation still obtains in many areas in the world. Also in India you grow up with a mother-tongue which could be Bhojpuri or Magahi, you learn the language of the State (mostly Hindi for Bhojpuri speakers) and you learn English and probably another Indian language (could be Urdu). Thus one is always polylingual. Sanskrit comes as the Brahmanic special language of ritual, learning, literature, philosophy and high culture. I agree that my qualification as artificial is slightly unreflected. But I wonder what else the word Sanskrit could convey but that it is frozen into perfection for all times, perfection meaning that it does not change? There are modern parallels to artificial sacred languages: the socalled Sadhu khari in which verses like those of Kabir are composed. I was taught that Sadhu khari is not a spoken contact language but a version of spoken Hindustani / Hindi / Urdu language used especially for religious purposes like spreading Bhakti. And what about Buddhist hybrid Sanskrit? A mix of quasi-Prakrit quasi-Pali with regular Paninian Sanskrit. This language was used only for the verse-portions of Mahayana Buddhist Sutras. Victor -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dipak Bhattacharya Verzonden: donderdag 19 februari 2009 5:25 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: frequencies What prompts one to explore such possibilities of which there is no?hints in the literature? Why should not the same hold good for Homer? And then why not extend the same argument to speculate upon the artificiality of Homeric Greek?? It is absurd and just luxury in speculation to assume that a language that has parallels should have been created artificially without a dialectal base and then a literature should be produced. At least that is not a linguist's standpoint.? Something akin happened to Classical Sanskrit. But that took place when it ?when it lost its dialectal base. Moreover, standard dialects exist everywhere. The BBC does not allow Cockney in speeches delivered through it. Does it? And does that make Standard British English an artificial language? DB --- On Wed, 18/2/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: From: Allen W Thrasher Subject: Re: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 9:52 PM Is it not possible that the language of the hymns (or at least some of them) was largely an artificial one, at least that it exploited every possibility of the language for artifice, artifice which might extend to morphology as well as imagery? And is it not also possible that at some stage, without the use of writing, archaic vocabulary and archaic grammatical features which had fallen out of the everyday spoken language were preserved for the production of new hymns? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >>> Dipak Bhattacharya 2/18/2009 11:06:54 AM >>> 09 02 18 Victor's observations pertain to post-Paa.ninian Classical Sanskrit. But early Vedic was a living language with a Vedic dialectal base. There was no Prakrit (that has a system different from the one common to Classical Sanskrit and Vedic) around in say 1000 BCE. The fact that post-Paa.ninian records outnumber Vedic ones is no reason for forgetting the reality of the Vedic dialects. To observations like "Sanskrit is by definition an artificial language" one must add "if we do not regard Vedic as Sanskrit" But that does not stand. DB --- On Wed, 18/2/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 1:36 PM I think we should also take into consideration that Sanskrit is by definition an artificial language. The word itself means after all something like: purified, perfected. It stood in contrast to the Prakrits, the natural languages (of the Aryan elites?). Being an artificial language, Sanskrit would not have the same features as a spoken contact language used in the bazaars. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Alexandra Vandergeer Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 8:18 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: frequencies Correct, but does it also hold for the top100 of used words? I doubt so, I personally think that the highly specialized vocabularies, or jargons, fall in a lower category, except of course of the name and ways of address of the deity in a purana devoted to that particular deity and so on and so on. Anyway it would be interesting to see whether indeed the different genres in Skt texts are so different as we generally assume, restricting ourselves to the top100. It would be equally interesting to see whether there is a shift in language use throughout the centuries in the high-frequency words. Alexandra > Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and > other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words > in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper > articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if > it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the > vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the > other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and > forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot > be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, > but this is a special case. > Best wishes, > EF Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Feb 19 16:36:06 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 11:36:06 -0500 Subject: frequencies Message-ID: <161227084990.23782.9133672901937440152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominic, Which journal and what publisher is this? Also, am I right in thinking the title is Lexicographica not Lexicograpohica? Allen "There is a good article that many will know, that goes into this matter with subtlety and care: Ladislav Zgusta, "Copying in Lexicography: Monier-Williams' Sanskrit Dictionary and other cases (Dvaikosyam)" Lexicograpohica 4 (1988): pp. 145-164." Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR Thu Feb 19 09:45:59 2009 From: geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR (Alexandra Vandergeer) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 11:45:59 +0200 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084967.23782.226911042365490623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Small addition to reading Dante, we should not forget that Latin is thought at Italian highschools as a compulsory subject throughout the years (as Classic Greek is here in Greece, actually, my children spend more hours class on Classic than on Modern Greek!). This immensely helps reading Dante. Greek children also have much less problems reading Homer than English children reading Chaucer. By the way, Dutch people have much less problems either with Chaucer. > Actually I think you'll find that there is a dual number in Homeric > Greek, but as an alternative, not compulsory as the Sanskrit dual is. > (I have no Homeric grammar to hand at present to check this.) It also > has a locative (on place names) and other familiar features. > > Many languages have a strongly artificial element to them, but they > don't always stay artificial. A case in point is Italian, which as I > understand it was originally a language of literature and culture > (developed from the Tuscan dialect), in the days when, in daily life, > the Italian people spoke a number of widely different dialects. Here > too there is (or was until recently) a slow rate of linguistic > change: I am told that a modern Italian can still sit down and read > Dante (1265-1321) with the aid of a few notes, whereas the modern > English speaker needs a course in Middle English (or a translation) > to tackle Chaucer (around a hundred years later). > > Valerie J Roebuck > > At 9:39 am +0200 19/2/09, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: >>Well, the tense system in Homeric Greek (and modern Greek, though to a >>lesser extent of course) is as complicated as that of Sanskrit. The dual >>number is, however, lacking. But what does that prove? Duality can be >> very >>easily skipped using additional pronouns such as 'both'. >> >> >>> >> writing, archaic vocabulary and archaic grammatical features which had >>> fallen >>> out of the everyday spoken language were preserved for the production >>> of >>> new >>> hymns?> >>> What prompts one to explore such possibilities of which there is noB >>> hints >>> in the literature? Why should not the same hold good for Homer? And >>> then >>> why not extend the same argument to speculate upon the artificiality >>> of >>> Homeric Greek?B It is absurd and just luxury in speculation to assume >>> that a language that has parallels should have been created >>> artificially >>> without a dialectal base and then a literature should be produced. At >>> least that is not a linguist's standpoint.B >>> Something akin happened to Classical Sanskrit. But that took place >>> when it >>> B when it lost its dialectal base. >>> Moreover, standard dialects exist everywhere. The BBC does not allow >>> Cockney in speeches delivered through it. Does it? And does that make >>> Standard British English an artificial language? >>> DB >>> >>> --- On Wed, 18/2/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: >>> >>> From: Allen W Thrasher >>> Subject: Re: frequencies >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 9:52 PM >>> >>> Is it not possible that the language of the hymns (or at least some of >>> them) was >>> largely an artificial one, at least that it exploited every >>> possibility of >>> the >>> language for artifice, artifice which might extend to morphology as >>> well >>> as >>> imagery? And is it not also possible that at some stage, without the >>> use >>> of >>> writing, archaic vocabulary and archaic grammatical features which had >>> fallen >>> out of the everyday spoken language were preserved for the production >>> of >>> new >>> hymns? >>> >>> Allen >>> >>> >>> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >>> Senior Reference Librarian >>> Team Coordinator >>> South Asia Team, Asian Division >>> Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 >>> 101 Independence Ave., S.E. >>> Washington, DC 20540-4810 >>> tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov >>> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library >>> of >>> Congress. >>> >>>>>> Dipak Bhattacharya 2/18/2009 >>> 11:06:54 AM >>> >>> >>> 09 02 18 >>> Victor's observations pertain to post-Paa.ninian Classical Sanskrit. >>> But >>> early Vedic was a living language with a Vedic dialectal base. There >>> was >>> no >>> Prakrit (that has a system different from the one common to Classical >>> Sanskrit >>> and Vedic) around in say 1000 BCE. The fact that post-Paa.ninian >>> records >>> outnumber Vedic ones is no reason for forgetting the reality of the >>> Vedic >>> dialects. To observations like "Sanskrit is by definition an >>> artificial >> > language" one must add "if we do not regard Vedic as Sanskrit" >>> But that does not stand. >>> DB >>> --- On Wed, 18/2/09, victor van Bijlert >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> From: victor van Bijlert >>> Subject: Re: frequencies >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 1:36 PM >>> >>> I think we should also take into consideration that Sanskrit is by >>> definition an artificial language. The word itself means after all >>> something >>> like: purified, perfected. It stood in contrast to the Prakrits, the >>> natural >>> languages (of the Aryan elites?). Being an artificial language, >>> Sanskrit >>> would not have the same features as a spoken contact language used in >>> the >>> bazaars. >>> >>> >>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >>> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Alexandra >>> Vandergeer >>> Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 8:18 >>> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Onderwerp: Re: frequencies >>> >>> Correct, but does it also hold for the top100 of used words? I doubt >>> so, I >>> personally think that the highly specialized vocabularies, or jargons, >>> fall in a lower category, except of course of the name and ways of >>> address >>> of the deity in a purana devoted to that particular deity and so on >>> and so >>> on. Anyway it would be interesting to see whether indeed the different >>> genres in Skt texts are so different as we generally assume, >>> restricting >>> ourselves to the top100. It would be equally interesting to see >>> whether >>> there is a shift in language use throughout the centuries in the >>> high-frequency words. >>> >>> Alexandra >>> >>>> Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and >>>> other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words >>>> in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper >>>> articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if >>>> it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because >>>> the >>>> vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the >>>> other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and >>>> forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot >>>> be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, >>>> but this is a special case. >>>> Best wishes, >>>> EF >>> >>> >>> >>> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to >>> http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >>> >>> >>> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on >>> http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ >>> > From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Thu Feb 19 11:05:12 2009 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 12:05:12 +0100 Subject: "Visit SANSKNET while you can" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084980.23782.7760707828378498076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I tried to download the Sanskrit fonts for the website and then read the texts, but it failed. What is the exact procedure? KZ -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Gruenendahl, Reinhold Sent: 19. februar 2009 10:00 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: "Visit SANSKNET while you can" Apologies for distracting from more important issues, but this may be the window of opportunity for all those who know the SANSKNET project only by hearsay (or from the numerous links on the GRETIL main page) to actually visit the site: http://sansknet.ac.in/ In the last few years it has been more off than on, but yesterday I discovered that it is online again. When there, click "Content" to start a tour through a labyrinth of e-texts. This is not the place to dicuss the pros (e.g., range of material) and cons (encodings, atomization of texts, layout etc.). There are lots of valuable material there, altough it may be difficult to use. Alternatively, you may use the GRETIL versions provided for many of these texts (with more to follow). They have been converted to romanized Unicode (and alternative encodings), reformatted, and supplied with additional material, references, etc. Compare, e.g., the Brhadaranyaka-Upanisad on SANSKNET (special fonts required) http://sansknet.ac.in/upanishads/shankarabhashya/Brhadaranyakopanishad/index. htm and the converted version on GRETIL http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gret_utf.htm#BrhUp Regards Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu Feb 19 06:56:42 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 12:26:42 +0530 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084943.23782.14398802440422930824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks! These new developments are welcome as further moulding the standard speech. But that there remains a standard ie literary dialect varying from ideolect(institutional in this case) to ideolect is not denied, I think. Moreover the happenings are new.?That?such things cannot be confirmed for the Rgveda should not make it being looked upon as an artificial language.?Think of Milton or Gibbon making such language as mentioned above their own! They too wrote in a living language.? --- On Thu, 19/2/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: Re: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 19 February, 2009, 10:51 AM > Moreover, standard dialects exist everywhere. The BBC does not allow Cockney in speeches delivered through it. Does it? And does that make Standard British English an artificial language? Um, yes, the BBC does include what is referred to more neutrally as "Estuary English" in radio broadcasts, all the time. The BBC long ago ceased to cast itself as an arbiter of linguistic performance. Being judgemental about dialect in England is still such a minefield that the institutions can't possibly take hard positions. Like the OED, the BBC sees its job in this area as representative rather than didactic. It remains true, though, that there are more Received Pronunciation speakers at peak times and in critical slots like the evening news. Interestingly, a slight Scottish accent is widely perceived in S. England as attractive, authoritative, and correct. D Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Thu Feb 19 11:30:43 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 12:30:43 +0100 Subject: AW: "Visit SANSKNET while you can" Message-ID: <161227084982.23782.11900215533301301310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I tried to download the Sanskrit fonts for the website and then read the texts, but it failed. What is the exact procedure? KZ You probably have to configure your Browser: Click "View / Encoding" and select "Western ISO 8859-1". If that doesn't work, try any other - except "Unicode". RG From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Feb 19 12:46:50 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 12:46:50 +0000 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084986.23782.9574784134351326790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009, Jan Houben wrote: > It is well-known that this applies to Monier-Williams' dictionary (see his > own introduction which understates his dependency), It is a standard trope in our field to take pot-shots at Monier-Williams' dictionary on the grounds that it is derivative and that MW doesn't come clean about quite how derivative it is. On the other hand, how many of us would like to throw our copies of MW away, and use only PW or Apte instead? In his introduction, MW argues at some length about the critical value of his lexicographical innovations, especially in the arrangement of the materials, but also in the evaluation and enlargement of the vocabulary. It's true, he sounds a bit shrill at times. But in my view, the whole matter isn't very simple, and MW's original contributions to making a new dictionary go far beyond rearrangement (or the introduction of new error!) and certainly do not warrant reflex dismissal. There is a good article that many will know, that goes into this matter with subtlety and care: Ladislav Zgusta, "Copying in Lexicography: Monier-Williams' Sanskrit Dictionary and other cases (Dvaikosyam)" Lexicograpohica 4 (1988): pp. 145-164. Dominik From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Thu Feb 19 11:57:07 2009 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 12:57:07 +0100 Subject: "Visit SANSKNET while you can" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084984.23782.16168631257634897655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have tried them all with no luck. The fonts I downloaded are TrueType and I have installed them into my fonts file. Any other suggestions? KZ -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Gruenendahl, Reinhold Sent: 19 February 2009 12:31 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: AW: "Visit SANSKNET while you can" I tried to download the Sanskrit fonts for the website and then read the texts, but it failed. What is the exact procedure? KZ You probably have to configure your Browser: Click "View / Encoding" and select "Western ISO 8859-1". If that doesn't work, try any other - except "Unicode". RG From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Thu Feb 19 13:42:01 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 14:42:01 +0100 Subject: AW: "Visit SANSKNET while you can" Message-ID: <161227084988.23782.10965686888542388080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 19 Feb 2009 at 12:57, Kenneth Zysk wrote: > I have tried them all with no luck. The fonts I downloaded are TrueType > and I have installed them into my fonts file. > Any other suggestions? > KZ I know this sounds outdated, but sometimes it helps to restart after font installation. To make sure the fonts are properly installed you could try this: Copy a page or passage of the BrhadaranyakaUp text and paste it into your word processing programme. Then block the copied text and select the font "DV-TTYogesh" from your font menu. If the font doesn't appear in the font menu, it probably isn't installed. If the text is properly displayed in your word processor, there might be a problem with your browser - in which case I'm at the end of my wits. (There are at least two entirely different font families aorund on SANSKNET, so better stick to the BAUp files because they are written for DV-TTYogesh; if in doubt, open the source text of the HTML file and look for the font name.) Good luck! RG From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu Feb 19 10:10:21 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 15:40:21 +0530 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084973.23782.18120702602685876888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ? Fine! But It is not the point that they have exactly the same system. The main point was the existence of different tense-systems with many common modal endings -- true for Vedic and Homeric but almost lost in MIA and most of the other IE languages including French. That proves the living and non-artificial character of the Vedic language as a whole at least up to the period of the earlier Braahmanas. Kuiper emphatically pointed to the dual character of Sanskrit -- of its archaisms and dynamism -- while treating traces of the laryngeals in Sanskrit.. All the other great authorities -- Burrow and Hoffmann included -- have spoken of the dialectal base of Vedic and Burrow of every OIA language recorded or inferred. The contrary views expressed here perhaps owe their origin to some misunderstanding. Among others, Pharr (HG 821) gives the list of active and middle dual endings for indicative? in primary and secondary tenses and for subjunctive, optative and imperative. The dual does not appear only for the first person. Partly hypothetical conjugational charts are given in sections 904 -- 969.The dual appears everywhere except in the first person as mentioned above. I ask for apology from members who know much better than me about the closeness of Homeric and Sanskrit. Their number must be many. Best for all. DB --- On Thu, 19/2/09, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: From: Alexandra Vandergeer Subject: Re: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 19 February, 2009, 1:09 PM Well, the tense system in Homeric Greek (and modern Greek, though to a lesser extent of course) is as complicated as that of Sanskrit. The dual number is, however, lacking. But what does that prove? Duality can be very easily skipped using additional pronouns such as 'both'. > writing, archaic vocabulary and archaic grammatical features which had > fallen > out of the everyday spoken language were preserved for the production of > new > hymns?> > What prompts one to explore such possibilities of which there is no??hints > in the literature? Why should not the same hold good for Homer? And then > why not extend the same argument to speculate upon the artificiality of > Homeric Greek??? It is absurd and just luxury in speculation to assume > that a language that has parallels should have been created artificially > without a dialectal base and then a literature should be produced. At > least that is not a linguist's standpoint.?? > Something akin happened to Classical Sanskrit. But that took place when it > ??when it lost its dialectal base. > Moreover, standard dialects exist everywhere. The BBC does not allow > Cockney in speeches delivered through it. Does it? And does that make > Standard British English an artificial language? > DB > > --- On Wed, 18/2/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > > From: Allen W Thrasher > Subject: Re: frequencies > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 9:52 PM > > Is it not possible that the language of the hymns (or at least some of > them) was > largely an artificial one, at least that it exploited every possibility of > the > language for artifice, artifice which might extend to morphology as well > as > imagery? And is it not also possible that at some stage, without the use > of > writing, archaic vocabulary and archaic grammatical features which had > fallen > out of the everyday spoken language were preserved for the production of > new > hymns? > > Allen > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of > Congress. > >>>> Dipak Bhattacharya 2/18/2009 > 11:06:54 AM >>> > > 09 02 18 > Victor's observations pertain to post-Paa.ninian Classical Sanskrit. But > early Vedic was a living language with a Vedic dialectal base. There was > no > Prakrit (that has a system different from the one common to Classical > Sanskrit > and Vedic) around in say 1000 BCE. The fact that post-Paa.ninian records > outnumber Vedic ones is no reason for forgetting the reality of the Vedic > dialects. To observations like "Sanskrit is by definition an artificial > language" one must add "if we do not regard Vedic as Sanskrit" > But that does not stand. > DB > --- On Wed, 18/2/09, victor van Bijlert > wrote: > > From: victor van Bijlert > Subject: Re: frequencies > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 1:36 PM > > I think we should also take into consideration that Sanskrit is by > definition an artificial language. The word itself means after all > something > like: purified, perfected. It stood in contrast to the Prakrits, the > natural > languages (of the Aryan elites?). Being an artificial language, Sanskrit > would not have the same features as a spoken contact language used in the > bazaars. > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Alexandra > Vandergeer > Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 8:18 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: frequencies > > Correct, but does it also hold for the top100 of used words? I doubt so, I > personally think that the highly specialized vocabularies, or jargons, > fall in a lower category, except of course of the name and ways of address > of the deity in a purana devoted to that particular deity and so on and so > on. Anyway it would be interesting to see whether indeed the different > genres in Skt texts are so different as we generally assume, restricting > ourselves to the top100. It would be equally interesting to see whether > there is a shift in language use throughout the centuries in the > high-frequency words. > > Alexandra > >> Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and >> other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words >> in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper >> articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if >> it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the >> vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the >> other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and >> forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot >> be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, >> but this is a special case. >> Best wishes, >> EF > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu Feb 19 10:27:24 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 15:57:24 +0530 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <1AA2C5E225C942E18E1534389C2F37CE@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227084978.23782.216690976547126893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The period should be specified. What holds good for the second century BCE does not hold good for the eleventh century BC. Fortunately we get pieces of sermons from a living dialect in the inscriptions of Asoka. Rare as they are as a species their (or of some of them) relation to some of the literary MIA languages?is equivalent to the relation between the RV and its basic dialect. Pali, a priestly language, was living so long as its base, most probably available in some?version of the Asokan Inscriptions?was alive. That died and Pali became a dead language. The same holds good for Sanskrit.In this respect there is nothing special with it.? DB --- On Thu, 19/2/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 19 February, 2009, 3:29 PM Homeric Greek probably also did not reflect a spoken language. Of course, originally a complicated form of Vedic Sanskrit must have been a spoken language, even a language of communication. But this is guesswork. One could perhaps only prove something by looking at parallels like ancient Iranian and other related Indo-European languages. Artificiality of Sanskrit does not mean it never was a spoken contact language, but it must have frozen into a sacred language quite early in time. The Prakrits simply further developed into contact (?) languages. The point I should have perhaps emphasised is that I cannot conceive Sanskrit to be a mothertongue. The premodern linguistic situation was always in the plural. One grew up with many languages: mother-tongue, contactlanguages and a sacred standard version of a (dead) language. This situation still obtains in many areas in the world. Also in India you grow up with a mother-tongue which could be Bhojpuri or Magahi, you learn the language of the State (mostly Hindi for Bhojpuri speakers) and you learn English and probably another Indian language (could be Urdu). Thus one is always polylingual. Sanskrit comes as the Brahmanic special language of ritual, learning, literature, philosophy and high culture. I agree that my qualification as artificial is slightly unreflected. But I wonder what else the word Sanskrit could convey but that it is frozen into perfection for all times, perfection meaning that it does not change? There are modern parallels to artificial sacred languages: the socalled Sadhu khari in which verses like those of Kabir are composed. I was taught that Sadhu khari is not a spoken contact language but a version of spoken Hindustani / Hindi / Urdu language used especially for religious purposes like spreading Bhakti. And what about Buddhist hybrid Sanskrit? A mix of quasi-Prakrit quasi-Pali with regular Paninian Sanskrit. This language was used only for the verse-portions of Mahayana Buddhist Sutras. Victor -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dipak Bhattacharya Verzonden: donderdag 19 februari 2009 5:25 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: frequencies What prompts one to explore such possibilities of which there is no?hints in the literature? Why should not the same hold good for Homer? And then why not extend the same argument to speculate upon the artificiality of Homeric Greek?? It is absurd and just luxury in speculation to assume that a language that has parallels should have been created artificially without a dialectal base and then a literature should be produced. At least that is not a linguist's standpoint.? Something akin happened to Classical Sanskrit. But that took place when it ?when it lost its dialectal base. Moreover, standard dialects exist everywhere. The BBC does not allow Cockney in speeches delivered through it. Does it? And does that make Standard British English an artificial language? DB --- On Wed, 18/2/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: From: Allen W Thrasher Subject: Re: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 9:52 PM Is it not possible that the language of the hymns (or at least some of them) was largely an artificial one, at least that it exploited every possibility of the language for artifice, artifice which might extend to morphology as well as imagery? And is it not also possible that at some stage, without the use of writing, archaic vocabulary and archaic grammatical features which had fallen out of the everyday spoken language were preserved for the production of new hymns? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >>> Dipak Bhattacharya 2/18/2009 11:06:54 AM >>> 09 02 18 Victor's observations pertain to post-Paa.ninian Classical Sanskrit. But early Vedic was a living language with a Vedic dialectal base. There was no Prakrit (that has a system different from the one common to Classical Sanskrit and Vedic) around in say 1000 BCE. The fact that post-Paa.ninian records outnumber Vedic ones is no reason for forgetting the reality of the Vedic dialects. To observations like "Sanskrit is by definition an artificial language" one must add "if we do not regard Vedic as Sanskrit" But that does not stand. DB --- On Wed, 18/2/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: frequencies To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 1:36 PM I think we should also take into consideration that Sanskrit is by definition an artificial language. The word itself means after all something like: purified, perfected. It stood in contrast to the Prakrits, the natural languages (of the Aryan elites?). Being an artificial language, Sanskrit would not have the same features as a spoken contact language used in the bazaars. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Alexandra Vandergeer Verzonden: woensdag 18 februari 2009 8:18 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: frequencies Correct, but does it also hold for the top100 of used words? I doubt so, I personally think that the highly specialized vocabularies, or jargons, fall in a lower category, except of course of the name and ways of address of the deity in a purana devoted to that particular deity and so on and so on. Anyway it would be interesting to see whether indeed the different genres in Skt texts are so different as we generally assume, restricting ourselves to the top100. It would be equally interesting to see whether there is a shift in language use throughout the centuries in the high-frequency words. Alexandra > Frequency in Sanskrit does not work in the same way as in English and > other modern languges. It is possible to complie a list of 3000 words > in English that cover 70-80% of "all" conversations, newspaper > articles, etc. This is just not possible in the case of Sanskrit--if > it were possible, it would have been done a long time ago--because the > vocabulary is highly specialized according to literary genres. On the > other hand, if one moves within the same genre, one can go back and > forth hundreds of years without any difficulty, something that cannot > be done in English, German, French and do on. Hebrew is an exception, > but this is a special case. > Best wishes, > EF Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Feb 19 16:39:00 2009 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 16:39:00 +0000 Subject: Publication Announcement Message-ID: <161227084993.23782.6758839376116637727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oskar von Hin?ber: Kleine Schriften. Teil 1.2. Hrsg. v. Harry Falk und Walter Slaje. [Ver?ffentlichungen der Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung. 47.] Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2009. 1165 pp. ISBN 978-3-447-05850-6 ---------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 mailto:walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Feb 19 17:17:55 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 17:17:55 +0000 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: <20090219T113606Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084995.23782.5823586852974099943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry about the lexical error in typing. The journal is indeed "Lexicographica: Lexicographica. International Annual for Lexicography". :-) -- Dominik On Thu, 19 Feb 2009, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Dominic, > > Which journal and what publisher is this? Also, am I right in thinking > the title is Lexicographica not Lexicograpohica? > > Allen > > > "There is a good article that many will know, that goes into this matter > with subtlety and care: > > Ladislav Zgusta, "Copying in Lexicography: Monier-Williams' Sanskrit > Dictionary and other cases (Dvaikosyam)" Lexicograpohica 4 (1988): > pp. 145-164." > > > > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From ingeardagum at YAHOO.CO.UK Thu Feb 19 21:22:13 2009 From: ingeardagum at YAHOO.CO.UK (Benjamin Slade) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 21:22:13 +0000 Subject: first reference to Durga; first reference to sindur Message-ID: <161227084999.23782.12260238932137338353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (1) Durga Wondering about the earliest references for two things: (1) Durga (2) the use of sindur, particularly as used in the hair parting by married women thanks,--- Benjamin Slade ( http://www.jnanam.net/slade/ ) Dept. of Linguistics, University of Illinois-Urbana/Champaign [Beowulf on Steorarume - http://www.heorot.dk ] From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu Feb 19 21:44:55 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 21:44:55 +0000 Subject: frequencies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085002.23782.7432290867773171842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No disrespect for MW (and besides, the version we all use is not the one criticized by B and R, but one has been substantially revised by other scholars; the PW too is the fruit of collaboration of a considerable number of scholars), just an anecdote: I remember seeing once a word for ?woman? being glossed by ?women?s room? which is, of course, a direct mistranslation of Frauenzimmer. Best, Eli Quoting Dominik Wujastyk : > On Thu, 19 Feb 2009, Jan Houben wrote: > >> It is well-known that this applies to Monier-Williams' dictionary (see his >> own introduction which understates his dependency), > > It is a standard trope in our field to take pot-shots at > Monier-Williams' dictionary on the grounds that it is derivative and > that MW doesn't come clean about quite how derivative it is. On the > other hand, how many of us would like to throw our copies of MW > away, and use only PW or Apte instead? > > In his introduction, MW argues at some length about the critical > value of his lexicographical innovations, especially in the > arrangement of the materials, but also in the evaluation and > enlargement of the vocabulary. It's true, he sounds a bit shrill at > times. But in my view, the whole matter isn't very simple, and MW's > original contributions to making a new dictionary go far beyond > rearrangement (or the introduction of new error!) and certainly do > not warrant reflex dismissal. > > There is a good article that many will know, that goes into this > matter with subtlety and care: > > Ladislav Zgusta, "Copying in Lexicography: Monier-Williams' Sanskrit > Dictionary and other cases (Dvaikosyam)" Lexicograpohica 4 (1988): > pp. 145-164. > > > Dominik > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Thu Feb 19 09:59:49 2009 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 22:59:49 +1300 Subject: frequencies Message-ID: <161227084969.23782.15967761711344706951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Valerie, On Thu, 2009-02-19 at 21:29, Valerie J Roebuck wrote: > Actually I think you'll find that there is a dual number in Homeric > Greek, but as an alternative, not compulsory as the Sanskrit dual is. > (I have no Homeric grammar to hand at present to check this.) ... Almost couldn't find my Paley under all the dust but finally got it: Iliad XXIII 485 - ? ???????? ??????????? ?? ??????? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Paley, Iliad &c., (London: 1884) His footnote suggests that the dual here is Alexandrine. See also ??????????, Liddell & Scott, p 1371 Best, Richard -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From veltsch at OEAW.AC.AT Thu Feb 19 22:54:48 2009 From: veltsch at OEAW.AC.AT (Vincent Eltschinger) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 09 23:54:48 +0100 Subject: Seek information about the Dharmalankara In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085004.23782.18425368556378952671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mrinal, Sankaranandana is actually the author of a mi'sraka text entitled Dharmaala.kaara, of which no Tibetan translation has come down to us. Fortunately enough, both Saa.nk.rtyaayana and Tucci have taken photographs of one manuscript (in Ngor, South Central Tibet) containing all the stanzas ever written by Sankaranandana and which form the core of no less than 13 independent treatises (note should be made that Sankaranandana commented on three, maybe four works of Dharmakiirti, viz. the Pramaa.navaarttika, the Pramaa.navini'scaya, the Sambandhapariik.saa and - according to later Tibetan sources - the Vaadanyaaya). All the pictures are of poor quality but have allowed me to transcribe, let's say, 4/5 of the manuscript (the product of my endeavours is unfortunately not worthy of publication in the present state). A little more than 3 years ago, I was lucky enough to identify other manuscript ressources, among which one incomplete Sanskrit manuscript containing chapters two and three of Sankaranandana's Dharmaala.nkaara (the work amounts to three chapters: a proof of momentariness, a proof of selflessness, and answers to objections raised against the Buddhist doctrine of momentariness). To put it shortly, I have made a rough transcription of the treatise's stanzas and of Sankaranandana's prose commentary on it. Unfortunately, these materials are not ready for publication. It goes without saying that I shall try my best in order to provide you with more detailed informations or help in identifying Saiva quotations. With best wishes, Vincent Eltschinger PS: Two papers of mine are in the process of being published in Italy. The first (in French), is entitled "Les oeuvres de Sankaranandana: Nouvelles ressources manuscrites, chronologie relative et identit? confessionnelle"; the second (in English), is entitled: "Sankaranandana's Sarvaj?asiddhi: A Preliminary Report." Needless to say, I can send you my own versions of these two papers. > Dear Indologists, > I will be really grateful if any of > the scholars could let me have more information about the following; > > In his ninth chapter of the Tantraloka (TA), Abhinavagupta seems to be > making a reference to the Buddhist scholars like Dignaga and > Sankaranandana. At least that is what Jayaratha tells us in his > commentary on the TA while citing references from their works. He has > made reference to the works like Traikalyapariksa of Dignaga (I think > even this text in not completely available or even published) and the > Dharmalamkara of Sankaranandana. Helmut Krasser (2001) does mention > details about Sankaranandana, but nothing much is said about his work > titled the Dharmalankara. Professor Raffaele Torella told me that Dr > Vincent Eltschinger was preparing an edition of this work based on two > manuscripts; one from Patna and another from China. I would like to > have access to the Sanskrit text of the Dharmalankara. If someone can > share some information with me or get me in touch with Prof Vincent > Eltschinger directly, I shall be really grateful for that. > > I thank everyone in advance who may be able to share some information. > Regards. > > Mrinal Kaul > > ************************* > Mrinal Kaul > # 37/4 Pandoka Colony > Paloura, Jammu - 181121 > Jammu & Kashmir INDIA > ************************* > Phone: 91-191-2532549 > Cell: 91-9999488911 (Delhi) > Cell: 91-9419789213 (J&K) > Cell: 44-7909640319 (UK) > ************************* > email: mrinal.kaul at stx.oxon.org > http://mkmartand.blogspot.com > http://mrinalkaul.art.officelive.com > From mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 19 20:12:25 2009 From: mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 09 01:42:25 +0530 Subject: Seek information about the Dharmalankara Message-ID: <161227084997.23782.12648413832785011216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I will be really grateful if any of the scholars could let me have more information about the following; In his ninth chapter of the Tantraloka (TA), Abhinavagupta seems to be making a reference to the Buddhist scholars like Dignaga and Sankaranandana. At least that is what Jayaratha tells us in his commentary on the TA while citing references from their works. He has made reference to the works like Traikalyapariksa of Dignaga (I think even this text in not completely available or even published) and the Dharmalamkara of Sankaranandana. Helmut Krasser (2001) does mention details about Sankaranandana, but nothing much is said about his work titled the Dharmalankara. Professor Raffaele Torella told me that Dr Vincent Eltschinger was preparing an edition of this work based on two manuscripts; one from Patna and another from China. I would like to have access to the Sanskrit text of the Dharmalankara. If someone can share some information with me or get me in touch with Prof Vincent Eltschinger directly, I shall be really grateful for that. I thank everyone in advance who may be able to share some information. Regards. Mrinal Kaul ************************* Mrinal Kaul # 37/4 Pandoka Colony Paloura, Jammu - 181121 Jammu & Kashmir INDIA ************************* Phone: 91-191-2532549 Cell: 91-9999488911 (Delhi) Cell: 91-9419789213 (J&K) Cell: 44-7909640319 (UK) ************************* email: mrinal.kaul at stx.oxon.org http://mkmartand.blogspot.com http://mrinalkaul.art.officelive.com From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Feb 20 22:57:37 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 09 17:57:37 -0500 Subject: Nepalese book with feathers on cover Message-ID: <161227085007.23782.1578085322630699279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Someone came round today and showed us a Nepalese thyasapu (contents stotras, yantras, mantras, medical prescriptions, and 6 or 8 color illustrations looking more 'Buddhist' in content than the apparently 'Hindu' oriented text. No comments on the relations of the two in Nepal, please; that's why the scare quotes. Anyway, it had feathers on the cover, rather unattractive ones to my taste. I find it hard to believe they are there for aesthetic reasons. Sam Fogg in London offers a somewhat ms: < http://tinyurl.com/ap4xra >. Does anyone know what this is for? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sat Feb 21 05:14:12 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 09 10:44:12 +0530 Subject: Nepalese book with feathers on cover In-Reply-To: <20090220T175737Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085010.23782.14774598957610744868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 21 02 09 I could not determine just what type of information?has been asked for. Just a cursory glance into Sam Fogg's said mss. images informs one of the As.tasaahasrikaa-Praj;naapaaramitaa and some postures, songs etc., certainly meant for?the vajramusic. The usual?spelling errors occur. I could be more elaborate but? if my guess about the type of information requested is correct??this will do,I hope, DB? --- On Sat, 21/2/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: From: Allen W Thrasher Subject: Nepalese book with feathers on cover To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Saturday, 21 February, 2009, 4:27 AM Someone came round today and showed us a Nepalese thyasapu (contents stotras, yantras, mantras, medical prescriptions, and 6 or 8 color illustrations looking more 'Buddhist' in content than the apparently 'Hindu' oriented text. No comments on the relations of the two in Nepal, please; that's why the scare quotes. Anyway, it had feathers on the cover, rather unattractive ones to my taste. I find it hard to believe they are there for aesthetic reasons. Sam Fogg in London offers a somewhat ms: < http://tinyurl.com/ap4xra >. Does anyone know what this is for? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From acharyadiwakar at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 21 05:33:07 2009 From: acharyadiwakar at HOTMAIL.COM (diwakar acharya) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 09 14:33:07 +0900 Subject: Nepalese book with feathers on cover In-Reply-To: <20090220T175737Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085013.23782.7634972113995787745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Allen, I guess these feathers are of the sacrificed birds, certainly of more than one, and most likely from the head or neck. They must be attached there together with a piece of flesh or clots of blood. In Nepal, particularly the KTM valley, one can even find the upper part of a buffalo skull together with horns nailed on the temple-walls of the fierce goddesses or gods. The 'sacred' book of power, being one of the object of devotion, also can receive such offers, I think. Diwakar Acharya > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:57:37 -0500 > From: athr at LOC.GOV > Subject: Nepalese book with feathers on cover > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Someone came round today and showed us a Nepalese thyasapu (contents stotras, yantras, mantras, medical prescriptions, and 6 or 8 color illustrations looking more 'Buddhist' in content than the apparently 'Hindu' oriented text. No comments on the relations of the two in Nepal, please; that's why the scare quotes. Anyway, it had feathers on the cover, rather unattractive ones to my taste. I find it hard to believe they are there for aesthetic reasons. Sam Fogg in London offers a somewhat ms: < http://tinyurl.com/ap4xra >. Does anyone know what this is for? > > Allen > > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. _________________________________________________________________ Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/events.aspx From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sat Feb 21 10:58:04 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 09 16:28:04 +0530 Subject: first reference to Durga; first reference to sindur In-Reply-To: <355838.27770.qm@web23102.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085015.23782.14460436125551348482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 21 02 09 RV Khila 4.2.13a(Scheftelowitz 112); post-RV T.Ara.nyaka 10.1; very late Vedic; reading not very certain; Matsya-Puraa.na 93.16 1st millennium CE?1st half? DB --- On Fri, 20/2/09, Benjamin Slade wrote: From: Benjamin Slade Subject: first reference to Durga; first reference to sindur To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 20 February, 2009, 2:52 AM (1) Durga Wondering about the earliest references for two things: (1) Durga (2) the use of sindur, particularly as used in the hair parting by married women thanks,--- Benjamin Slade ( http://www.jnanam.net/slade/ ) Dept. of Linguistics, University of Illinois-Urbana/Champaign [Beowulf on Steorarume - http://www.heorot.dk ] Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Sun Feb 22 09:16:05 2009 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 09 09:16:05 +0000 Subject: Date of Manu In-Reply-To: <1AA2C5E225C942E18E1534389C2F37CE@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227085017.23782.2231062401614579681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the current thinking on the date of the Maanava Dharma S'aastra? Valerie J Roebuck From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Sun Feb 22 09:41:31 2009 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 09 09:41:31 +0000 Subject: AW: Date of Manu Message-ID: <161227085020.23782.8922969227944594878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to Patrick Olivelle in his critical edition of Manu between the first century BCE and the second centurury CE. See also his arguments in the Introduction of his translation. ________________________________ Von: Valerie J Roebuck An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Gesendet: Sonntag, den 22. Februar 2009, 10:16:05 Uhr Betreff: Date of Manu What is the current thinking on the date of the Maanava Dharma S'aastra? Valerie J Roebuck From hellwig7 at GMX.DE Sun Feb 22 12:11:42 2009 From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 09 12:11:42 +0000 Subject: first reference to Durga; first reference to sindur Message-ID: <161227085022.23782.15253446867120881800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For sindura in early classical Skt. refer to: Sushrutasamhita Cik. 9.61 Rtusamhara 1.24 Suryashataka 1.1 Lots of references can be found in alchemical texts (see White, Meulenbeld). Best, Oliver From jkirk at SPRO.NET Mon Feb 23 15:22:49 2009 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 09 08:22:49 -0700 Subject: Publication Announcement In-Reply-To: <965fdc5f0902230311s27bf1420ibf2b846f64520642@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227085037.23782.5350701762006269742.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Publications of Helmuth von Glasenapp Foundation -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of veeranarayana Pandurangi Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:11 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Publication Announcement could someone let us know what is this? On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Walter Slaje wrote: > Oskar von Hin?ber: Kleine Schriften. Teil 1.2. > Hrsg. v. Harry Falk und Walter Slaje. > [Ver?ffentlichungen der Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung. 47.] > Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2009. 1165 pp. ISBN 978-3-447-05850-6 > > ---------------------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > mailto:walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis > impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad > vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, > qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Mon Feb 23 12:21:00 2009 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 09 12:21:00 +0000 Subject: Publication Announcement Message-ID: <161227085035.23782.7248077157128491094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Head, Dept of Darshanas, I am trying to explain what is this. Actually, it is a book. You have requested, I am translating for letting you know all details: Oskar of To-The-Other-Side: Inessential Writings. Part 1.2. Ed. by Harry Falcon and Walter Slaje (sorry, no English translation available). [Publications of the Helmuth of Sip-the-Glass (= "kaaca-ca.saka" in Sanskrit)-Foundation. 47.] Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Publishers 2009. 1165 pp. ISBN 978-3-447-05850-6 As the title indicates, the author's contributions to Indian studies are so insignificant that he is still unknown by most outstanding specialists in the field, as your query demonstrates, and really deserves to remain neglected. Hope, all points being clarified, WS "veeranarayana Pandurangi" schrieb: > could someone let us know what is this? > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Walter Slaje wrote: > > > Oskar von Hin?ber: Kleine Schriften. Teil 1.2. > > Hrsg. v. Harry Falk und Walter Slaje. > > [Ver?ffentlichungen der Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung. 47.] > > Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2009. 1165 pp. ISBN 978-3-447-05850-6 > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > > ----------------------------------------- > > Seminar f?r Indologie > > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > > mailto:walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > > ----------------------------------------- > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > > > > > > -- > Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi > Head, Dept of Darshanas, > Yoganandacharya Bhavan, > Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post > Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. > --------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Mon Feb 23 12:03:34 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 09 13:03:34 +0100 Subject: Publication Announcement In-Reply-To: <965fdc5f0902230311s27bf1420ibf2b846f64520642@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227085030.23782.250362724769811860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 2 volumes of collected papers by Prof Dr Oskar von Hin?ber, specialist in Middle Indic, among other things. Apparently this volume is not (yet) listed on the publisher's web site, and I could not find a list of the table of contents. Hoping this helps, JAS On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 12:11 PM, veeranarayana Pandurangi < veerankp at gmail.com> wrote: > could someone let us know what is this? > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Walter Slaje wrote: > > > Oskar von Hin?ber: Kleine Schriften. Teil 1.2. > > Hrsg. v. Harry Falk und Walter Slaje. > > [Ver?ffentlichungen der Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung. 47.] > > Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2009. 1165 pp. ISBN 978-3-447-05850-6 > > > ... > -- > Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi > Head, Dept of Darshanas, > Yoganandacharya Bhavan, > Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post > Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From annamisia at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 23 21:57:07 2009 From: annamisia at YAHOO.COM (Anna A. Slaczka) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 09 13:57:07 -0800 Subject: Conference: Text and Practices of South Asian Art Message-ID: <161227085043.23782.3956650309754024336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends and Colleaguges, We are pleased to announce the 2nd Vilnius Conference on Topics in the Study of Asia (June 4-6, 2009; please note the short deadline!). Call for papers The Second Vilnius Conference on Topics in the Study of Asia Texts and Practices of South Asian Art Venue: Centre of Oriental Studies, Vilnius University June 4?6, 2009 Organizers: Dr. Valdas Jaskunas, Vilnius University Dr. Anna A. Slaczka, Leiden University The conference aims to bring together scholars from different countries for an interdisciplinary discussion of various aspects of the history of practices and histories of texts in South Asian art. We are particularly interested in the problems surrounding the codification of art practices and textual (shastric) tradition on an individual artistic, communal, and regional level, with attention to cases that centre on issues of cultural (dis)location, historicizing, and transition of South Asian art approached both from historical and contemporary perspectives. The conference welcomes also papers focusing on the relationship, and mutual influences, between South Asian and Southeast, East and Central Asian art. Issues The organizers welcome papers from historians, anthropologists, philosophers, and historians of art and religion that are based on original research in specific issues and that fall into any of the proposed panels listed below or raise related issues: ? critical studies of South Asian art, its production and replication ? reconstructing art practices from the texts of the shastric tradition ? literary sources of visual narratives in South Asian sculpture and painting ? histories of vastu- and silpa-sastras and models of transmission of art knowledge ? Indian artists? and artisans? contestation for social status and debate about identity ? politics of building temples in South Asia and the diasporic milieu ? art and engineering in South Asian architecture ? biographies of art objects and artefacts ? constructing the history of South Asian art: the role of museums and exhibitions in creating, shaping and maintaining South Asian art ? urban histories as a theme of investigation for South Asian art historians ? reception of South Asian art in the West. The location of the conference The University of Vilnius, one of the oldest and most famous establishments of higher education in Eastern and Central Europe, was founded in 1579. Functioning for a long time as the only school of higher learning in Lithuania, it was a preserver of cultural and scientific traditions and has played a significant part in the cultural life not only of Lithuania, but also of neighbouring countries. The Centre of Oriental Studies at Vilnius University, originally founded in 1810 as the Chair in Eastern Languages and housed on the historic main campus in the Old Town of Vilnius, was re-established in 1993, following the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the re-emergence of Lithuania as an independent state. The centre offers undergraduate courses in the literature, religion, art and societies of Japan, China, India, Iran, Turkey, Arabic speaking countries, and Tibet. We offer six specializations: Japanese Studies, Chinese Studies, Indian Studies, Iranian Studies, Turkish Studies and Arabic Studies. A Master?s degree program on Modern Asian Studies, started in 2006, consists of interdisciplinary subjects with a focus on the application of theories of post-colonial, identity, visual, and media studies to Asian studies. Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania, is directly accessible by plane from most major European cities, (including London, Amsterdam, Prague, Helsinki, Paris, Frankfurt, Berlin, Brussels, Dublin, and Vienna). All participants will be met at the airport. The conference organizers have arranged housing in the centre of the historic district of the city, and daily events will include opportunities to see this baroque city. Why this conference and why in Vilnius? The year 2009 is extremely significant for Lithuania and its capital Vilnius. This year Lithuania commemorates the millennium of the name of Lithuania (first mentioned in 1009 in the annals of Quedlinburg, Germany), and Vilnius is a European Capital of Culture 2009. Vilnius, being one of the research centres of Indo-European studies, has been constantly showing interest in studies of Sanskrit and Indian cultural traditions. Although due to political reasons India-related studies have been conducted with interruption, since the first launch of the Chair of Eastern Languages in Vilnius University in 1810, South Asian languages and cultures have been studied in one form or another. To review recent history, Lithuania was briefly independent as a country from 1918 until 1940, under National Socialist control from 1940?1944 and under Soviet occupation from 1944 until 1990. Lithuania became a member of the European Union in 2004 and is currently being phased into the full European economy. The social transitions of Lithuania in the 20th century were enormous, often violent, frequently covert, and fastpaced, and the issues addressed in this conference can be readily seen in the cultural context of contemporary Vilnius. The city of Vilnius provides a setting for a series of conversations at a unique moment in time in Eastern Europe. While originally noted for its tolerance and mutual respect of its diverse ethnic population through the 1930s, predominantly as the centre of Jewish learning in Europe, Vilnius and other areas in Lithuania were also the location of the atrocities of the Holocaust, and later the subjugation of the Lithuanian people under the Soviet regime. Post-war Lithuania encountered severe difficulties in maintaining and creating a space and models for interaction of multicultural traditions. Our Centre of Oriental Studies is interested in foregrounding the theme of traditional knowledge systems in Asia precisely because we feel that specific cases from other places in the world have a great deal to contribute to the ongoing debates and discussions here at home. We are interested in inviting scholars who work on these issues in other contexts to come to Lithuania. Paper and panel submissions The working language of the conference is English. We are accepting both individual papers and whole panel proposals and ask that all proposals be submitted electronically, via e-mail to Valdas Jaskunas at valdas.jaskunas at oc.vu.lt . Individual paper proposals must include 1) a working title of the presentation; 2) a brief abstract of the paper (not to exceed 250 words); 3) the full name, affiliation, and CV of the presenter; and 4) a detailed description of any audio-visual needs required for the presentation. Panel proposals must follow the same guidelines as those for individual papers, but must also include 1) a working title of the panel; 2) a description of the issues addressed in the panel as a whole and the rationale for the panel; 3) the full name, affiliation, and CV of the panel coordinator and respondent (if not a paper presenter). Publication of the papers The peer-reviewed papers based on the Conference presentations will be published in the journal Acta Orientalia Vilnensia Vol. 10, Issue 2 (2009) from Vilnius University Press. Transportation and conference fees The full conference fee is ? 290 (USD 399) for scholars and ? 190 (USD 259) for doctoral students. It includes all local transportation to and from the airport and within Lithuania; hotel fees for the nights of June 4, 5, and 6; and lunch provided at the conference venues. We have included as part of the conference an opportunity to visit the famous Grutas Park, a theme park that was created after the Soviet era to decontextualize and display Soviet era public ideological sculpture and memorials and is located in the Lithuanian countryside. Travel and admission to the site is included in the conference fee. All conference presenters must be registered. The deadline for registration is April 17, 2009. Registration materials will be sent upon request. Contact information: Centre of Oriental Studies Vilnius University Universiteto 5 LT-01513 Vilnius Lithuania Phone/fax: (+370 5) 2687256 Contact person: Valdas Jaskunas Email: valdas.jaskunas at oc.vu.lt Anna Slaczka Leiden University The Netherlands Email: a.a.slaczka at hum.leidenuniv.nl From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 24 00:11:32 2009 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 09 16:11:32 -0800 Subject: announcement: original publication Message-ID: <161227085046.23782.1463637649721448101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As this?remarkable publication did not appear in an indological series it may escape the attention of potential interessees of this list: ? Author: Alexis Pinchard Title: Les langues de sagesse dans la Gr?ce et l?Inde anciennes. [The languages of wisdom in ancient Greece and India.] Series: Hautes Etudes du monde gr?co-romain 43 Gen?ve-Paris, Droz, 2009, X-638 p., br. ISBN 978-2600-01347-5 112,10 ? ? L?ouvrage se propose d?appliquer la m?thode ?prouv?e du comparatisme structural indo-europ?en aux textes po?tiques, mythologiques et d?sormais philosophiques, notamment pr?socratiques, afin de repenser l?unit? de la sagesse grecque (soph?a). Comment concilier la sagacit? du d?chiffreur d??nigmes qui, tel un sophiste, ne conna?t des choses que le syst?me de leurs noms, avec la science ? universelle parce que premi?re ?, dont la poursuite transforme la sagesse en m?taphysique? Bien que compos? en Inde, le Veda offre une r?ponse, se posant en r?alit? primordiale du seul fait qu?il cultive l?occulte dans la parole (parok.sapriyaa iva hi devaa.h). La th?orie platonicienne des Id?es, en effet, se r?v?lera ici d?ductible de l?antique hi?rarchie articulant langue des hommes et langue des dieux, pr?sente dans le Veda comme chez Hom?re. Les Myst?res d?Eleusis, dont Platon se r?clame d?s qu?il affirme le caract?re stratifi? de l??tre, confirmeront cette g?n?alogie: faisant de la connaissance une source d?immortalit?, ils mettent en sc?ne, dans des rites analogues ? ceux des br?hmanes, la qu?te de l?inspiration propre aux po?tes-voyants, laquelle culmine dans l?intuition intellectuelle des noms secrets en usage chez les dieux. ? This work applies structural Indo-European comparatism to pre-Socratic texts in order to re-examine the idea of a unitary Greek wisdom. Plato?s theory of forms can be deduced from ancient literary models such as Homer, Orpheus and the Veda of the Indian poet-seers. The mystery cults of the Greek Eleusis and the Indian Brahmans both made knowledge into a source of immortality, and in similar rites sought the intellectual intuition of the secret names of the gods. For more information and orders: distribution & diffusion d??rudition 69-71, rue du Chevaleret 75013 Paris 01 49 26 07 26 (t) 01 73 79 02 12 (f) www.erudist.net info at erudist.net https://www.droz.org/eCat/server/index.php From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 24 00:39:10 2009 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 09 16:39:10 -0800 Subject: announcement: original publication Message-ID: <161227085049.23782.9787141854679286686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As the?following publication did not appear in an indological series it may have escaped the attention of potential interessees of this list: ? Author: Peter Raster Title: Grundpositionen interkultureller Linguistik. [Foundational positions of intercultural linguistics.] Series: Interkulturelle Bibliothek, Band 123 Nordhausen: Traugott Bautz, 2008, 159 p.,? ISBN 978-3-88309-326-0 10 ? ? p. 159 Die interkulturelle Linguistik, deren Grundpositionen in dem vorliegenden Buch bestimmt werden, ist keine neue Teildisziplin der Linguistik, sondern eine systematische Zusammenfassung dessen, was in der Linguistik bereits an Erkenntnissen zur Interkulturalit?t sprachwissenschaftlicher Ph?nomene vorliegt. Zu diesen Ph?nomenen geh?ren nicht nur verschiedene Formen der Sprache und des Sprechens, sondern auch die Sprachwissenschaft selbst. ? [Intercultural linguistics, the foundational positions of which are determined in the present book, is not a new subdiscipline of linguistics, but a systematic summary of that which is already present in linguistics in the form of findings regarding interculturality of linguistic phenomena. To these phenomena belong not only different forms of language and speech, but also linguistics itself.] ? Of special interest for Indology: p. 47 ff: coexistence of subsequent language stages ? p. 68 ff: Humboldt's Sprachtypologie ? p. 126 ff: the origin of linguistics (in Greece, India and China). ? p. 142 ff: grammar and medium (orality, written media). ? ? ? Jan Houben ? ? ? ? ? ? From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Mon Feb 23 11:11:21 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 09 16:41:21 +0530 Subject: Publication Announcement In-Reply-To: <1LaBxH-0BUTia0@fwd06.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085028.23782.4116321738992471675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> could someone let us know what is this? On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Walter Slaje wrote: > Oskar von Hin?ber: Kleine Schriften. Teil 1.2. > Hrsg. v. Harry Falk und Walter Slaje. > [Ver?ffentlichungen der Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung. 47.] > Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2009. 1165 pp. ISBN 978-3-447-05850-6 > > ---------------------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > mailto:walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Mon Feb 23 15:52:41 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 09 16:52:41 +0100 Subject: Ajitasena-vyakarana Message-ID: <161227085040.23782.6483995813236436748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, A student is interested in working on the Ajitasena-vyakarana. Aside from the edition of the Gilgit text published by Dutt, is anyone aware of work on this text? thanks! jonathan -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU Mon Feb 23 06:09:14 2009 From: mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 09 17:09:14 +1100 Subject: Australian bushfires Message-ID: <161227085025.23782.17866396041034233874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues You will be saddened and distressed to learn that our friend and colleague Greg Bailey lost his house in the Australian bushfires. I'm sure he would be pleased to hear any messages of support: greg.bailey at latrobe.edu.au Yours McComas -- =============================== Dr McComas Taylor Head, South Asia Centre Faculty of Asian Studies The Australian National University ACTON ACT 0200 Tel: +61 2 6125 3179 Fax: +61 2 6125 8326 Email: mccomas.taylor at anu.edu.au URL: http://asianstudies.anu.edu.au/wiki/index.php/Dr_McComas_Taylor Location: Room E4.24 Baldessin Precinct Building From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Feb 23 12:16:15 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 09 17:46:15 +0530 Subject: Fw: Re: first reference to Durga; first reference to sindur Message-ID: <161227085033.23782.6035066317211813734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- On Mon, 23/2/09, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: first reference to Durga; first reference to sindur To: "veeranarayana Pandurangi" Date: Monday, 23 February, 2009, 5:19 PM RV Khila 4.2.13a(Scheftelowitz 112) runs as 'durgaa.m devii.m ;sara.nam aha.m prapadye...'; Whoelse could be addressed thus? MP.93.16 as 'vinaayaka.m tathaa durgaa.m vaayum aakaa;sam eva ca' Whoelse could be the deity here? DB --- On Mon, 23/2/09, veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: From: veeranarayana Pandurangi Subject: Re: first reference to Durga; first reference to sindur To: dbhattacharya2004 at yahoo.co.in Date: Monday, 23 February, 2009, 4:43 PM sir I have a big question. how did you find there references? On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: 21 02 09 RV Khila 4.2.13a(Scheftelowitz 112); post-RV T.Ara.nyaka 10.1; very late Vedic; reading not very certain; Matsya-Puraa.na 93.16 1st millennium CE?1st half? DB --- On Fri, 20/2/09, Benjamin Slade wrote: From: Benjamin Slade Subject: first reference to Durga; first reference to sindur To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 20 February, 2009, 2:52 AM (1) Durga Wondering about the earliest references for two things: (1) Durga (2) the use of sindur, particularly as used in the hair parting by married women thanks,--- Benjamin Slade ( http://www.jnanam.net/slade/ ) Dept. of Linguistics, University of Illinois-Urbana/Champaign [Beowulf on Steorarume - http://www.heorot.dk ] ? ? ?Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID. Get yourname at rocketmail.com. Sign up now! Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID. Get yourname at rocketmail.com. Sign up now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 24 11:01:08 2009 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 09 03:01:08 -0800 Subject: announcement: original publication (Byangsi) Message-ID: <161227085051.23782.9259698405531076629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As the?following publication did not appear in a well-known indological series it may have escaped the attention of potential interessees of this list: ? Author: Suhnu Ram Sharma Title: Byangsi Grammar and Vocabulary.?? Pune: Deccan College Postgraduate Research Institute, 2007, 151 p.,?? [linguistic description based on fieldwork] ? "Byangsi ... is one of seven Tibeto-Burman languages that are reported by Grierson (1909) as being spoken in the Himalayas and sub-Himalayas between the Gangetic Plain and the Tibetan Plateau, in the areas traditionally known as Kumaa~u and Ga.rhwaal [now part of] Uttaraanchal ... west of Nepaal and to the east of the state of Himaachal Pradesh." ? ? ? ? ? Jan Houben ? ? ? ? ? ? ? From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Tue Feb 24 14:48:14 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 09 06:48:14 -0800 Subject: signature verses In-Reply-To: <25500_1235485612_1235485612_c4c5a5430902240626y17d620dw3c44b3e6863d61bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227085058.23782.12323149956237490050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ;Siva-svaamin, a Kashmirian Buddhist, achieves this feat in his Kapphi.naabhyudaya. See Prof. Michael Hahn's excellent edn of the work. ashok aklujkar On 09/05/24 6:26 AM, "Jonathan Silk" wrote: > the ways in which > poets encode their names in verses. From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Feb 24 14:32:02 2009 From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (Gary Tubb) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 09 08:32:02 -0600 Subject: Publication Announcement In-Reply-To: <1LbZpO-1rB14i0@fwd07.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085056.23782.1329622648518896007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The governing committee of the Indology list reminds the list's members of the importance of civility, especially in view of the range of disciplines and academic backgrounds envisioned in the stated scope of the list (available at http://indology.info/email/email-const.shtml). Material in languages other than English need not always be translated when included in messages to the list, but a request from any member for clarification should be answered, if at all, in a way that is not belittling. Yours, Gary Tubb Committee member on duty Walter Slaje wrote: > Dear Head, Dept of Darshanas, > > I am trying to explain what is this. Actually, it is a book. You have requested, I am translating for letting you know all details: > > Oskar of To-The-Other-Side: Inessential Writings. Part 1.2. Ed. by Harry Falcon and Walter Slaje (sorry, no English translation available). [Publications of the Helmuth of Sip-the-Glass (= "kaaca-ca.saka" in Sanskrit)-Foundation. 47.] > Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Publishers 2009. 1165 pp. ISBN 978-3-447-05850-6 > > As the title indicates, the author's contributions to Indian studies are so insignificant that he is still unknown by most outstanding specialists in the field, as your query demonstrates, and really deserves to remain neglected. > > Hope, all points being clarified, > > WS > > "veeranarayana Pandurangi" schrieb: > >> could someone let us know what is this? >> >> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Walter Slaje wrote: >> >> >>> Oskar von Hin?ber: Kleine Schriften. Teil 1.2. >>> Hrsg. v. Harry Falk und Walter Slaje. >>> [Ver?ffentlichungen der Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung. 47.] >>> Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2009. 1165 pp. ISBN 978-3-447-05850-6 >>> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje >>> Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 >>> D-99425 Weimar (Germany) >>> Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 >>> ----------------------------------------- >>> Seminar f?r Indologie >>> Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften >>> Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg >>> Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 >>> D-06108 Halle (Germany) >>> Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 >>> Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 >>> mailto:walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de >>> www.indologie.uni-halle.de >>> ----------------------------------------- >>> Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor >>> me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum >>> non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, >>> sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus >>> humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. >>> Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. >>> >>> >> -- >> Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi >> Head, Dept of Darshanas, >> Yoganandacharya Bhavan, >> Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post >> Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. >> >> > > > --------------------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Feb 24 14:58:31 2009 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 09 09:58:31 -0500 Subject: signature verses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085062.23782.4321574029182397543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jonathan, At 3:26 PM +0100 2/24/09, Jonathan Silk wrote: >I am interested in the >case of Buddhist authors "signing" their works in, typically, a closing >verse. (I think I recall an example from Candrak?rti....?) Perhaps the instance you are thinking of occurs in the first of CandrakIrti's closing verses to his _yuktiSaSTikA-vRtti_: klu yi rkyen yin 'jigs dang bcas pas yongs spangs pa rigs pa'i ku mu da 'di kha 'byed _zla ba_ ni nyes pa'i 'byung gnas rab rib rnam pa rab bcom nas blo gros mi ldan skye bo rnams la _grags pas_ mdzes regards, Paul Hackett Columbia University From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Feb 24 15:09:53 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 09 10:09:53 -0500 Subject: signature verses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085064.23782.18017448131040518026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jonathan, It is common practice for poet to insert his own name in his poem, usually in the last stanza in medieval North Indian poetry. This is called a bhaNita. Jayadeva's GItagovinda has it in practically all the 24 songs, and elsewhere in the poem too. I have referred to this in my book Le GItagovinda. Tradition et innovation dans le kAvya, Almquist & Wiksell, Stockholm 1977, pp. 128-129 and under Jayadeva in the Index Verborum. Of course, Jayadeva was not a Buddhist, mais encore... Best regards Stella -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Tel. (416) 978-4295 Fax. (416) 978-5711 On 24-Feb-09, at 9:26 AM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > I seem to recall having read somewhere something about the ways in > which > poets encode their names in verses. In particular, I am interested > in the > case of Buddhist authors "signing" their works in, typically, a > closing > verse. (I think I recall an example from Candrak?rti....?) I'm > pretty sure > I've read something about this, but can't for the life of me > remember more > than that... > > thanks in advance for the help! jonathan > > -- > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Postbus 9515 > 2300 RA Leiden > Netherlands > From somadevah at MAC.COM Tue Feb 24 17:10:44 2009 From: somadevah at MAC.COM (Som Dev Vasudeva) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 09 12:10:44 -0500 Subject: signature verses In-Reply-To: <20090224174903.7376.HAHN.M@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085073.23782.2863862190696993604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Feb 24, 2009, at 11:50 AM, Michael Hahn wrote: > > I wonder whether someone knows an example prior to the Buddhist poet > and > grammarian Candragomin whose floruit is around 450 or 470 CE. See, > inter > alia, my book "Invitation to Enlightenment," Berkeley 1999. There is of course the related practice of using pen-names and signature words (-a?ka, -l??chana, -cihna), commonly also at the end of cantos, that might be considered here. An early one (if attestation exists) might be Ca?raci?dha. Hemacandra (1088-1172 ce) in his De??n?mam?l? 3.7 gives Ca?raci?dha (= Skt. caturacihna) as a pen-name for the S?tav?hana king H?la. See H.C. Bhayani, Indological Studies, Ahmedabad 1993, pp.170?171. S.D.Vasudeva From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 24 14:26:37 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 09 15:26:37 +0100 Subject: signature verses Message-ID: <161227085054.23782.4513531770842874634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I seem to recall having read somewhere something about the ways in which poets encode their names in verses. In particular, I am interested in the case of Buddhist authors "signing" their works in, typically, a closing verse. (I think I recall an example from Candrak?rti....?) I'm pretty sure I've read something about this, but can't for the life of me remember more than that... thanks in advance for the help! jonathan -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Feb 24 23:36:22 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 09 17:36:22 -0600 Subject: SV: signature verses Message-ID: <161227085079.23782.601823434278759683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It may be of interest in this connection that, as I note in my article in S. Pollock's Literary Cultures in History, Sa skya Pandita actually compiled a short anthology of such verses that involve the author's self-praise. It is found in his nga brgyad ma'i 'grel pa. This may therefore be a useful source for locating some other examples, preserved at least in Tibetan translation. (All of Sa pan's examples are from Indian Buddhist works.) Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE Tue Feb 24 16:50:00 2009 From: hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE (Michael Hahn) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 09 17:50:00 +0100 Subject: signature verses Message-ID: <161227085070.23782.5272804422626853540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jonathan, Ashok Aklujkar was so kind as to point to ;Siva.svaamin's Kapphi.naabhyudaya. Within the mahaakaavya genre this is a well established practise. I wonder whether someone knows an example prior to the Buddhist poet and grammarian Candragomin whose floruit is around 450 or 470 CE. See, inter alia, my book "Invitation to Enlightenment," Berkeley 1999. In his "Letter to a Disciple" (;Si.syalekha) both the first and last stanzas contain the word candra, the last stanza in a kind of double entendre. The same stanza is also the concluding stanza of his play Lokaananda which has survived only in its rather poor Tibetan translation; see my English rendering of the Tibetan version in "Joy for the World," Berkeley 1987. In addition to that Candragomin praises himself in the five act-concluding stanzas, always mentioning his name. Finally, his remarkable "Hymn in the Form of a Confession" (De;sanaastava), which again has survived only in its Tibetan translation (rendered into English by Mark Tatz in "Difficult Beginnings", Boston, London 1985) contains the word "moon" (Tib. zla ba) in its concluding stanza. Cf. my paper "A Difficult Beginning" in the Wayman Felicitation Volume. Best regards, Michael Hahn Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn Fachgebiet Indologie und Tibetologie FB 10, Philipps-Universitaet Marburg Deutschhausstr. 12 Tel.: +49-6421-282-4740 or 4741 Fax: +49-6421-282-4995 E-mail: hahnm at staff.uni-marburg.de URL: staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~hahnm From buescher at HUM.KU.DK Tue Feb 24 17:39:44 2009 From: buescher at HUM.KU.DK (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 09 18:39:44 +0100 Subject: SV: signature verses Message-ID: <161227085076.23782.3603633850156941951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >...Buddhist authors "signing" their works in, typically, a closing >verse. (I think I recall an example from Candrak?rti....?) I'm pretty sure >I've read something about this, but can't for the life of me remember more >than that... Jonathan, you must have read J. W. de Jong?s article ?La MadhyamakazAstrastuti de CandrakIrti?, first published in Oriens Extremus, IX (1962): 47-56; subsequently reprinted in: Buddhist Studies by J. W. de Jong, ed. by G. Schopen, Berkeley 1979: 541-550. Hartmut Buescher From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Feb 24 15:27:17 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 09 20:57:17 +0530 Subject: signature verses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085067.23782.3429276814574699874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is how Abhyaakara tells his name in the first verse of the Vajraavalii +ni.spraty?ham ih?bhayasya mahas? vajr?val? m?latu The proprer name has been translated in the Tibetan version bjigs.pa. medpahi.mthu.yis.bgegs.med.hdir.ni.rdo.rje.phre?.ba.hdu.bar.?og Praj;naakara ends the Bodhicaryaavataarapa;njikaa ma;nju;sriir iva sadgu.navasati.h praj;naakaro jaayataam There was no fixed rule. Poets writing in NIA languages took recourse to refrains occurring at regular intervals ? DB ? --- On Tue, 24/2/09, Paul G. Hackett wrote: From: Paul G. Hackett Subject: Re: signature verses To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 24 February, 2009, 8:28 PM Dear Jonathan, At 3:26 PM +0100 2/24/09, Jonathan Silk wrote: >I am interested in the >case of Buddhist authors "signing" their works in, typically, a closing >verse. (I think I recall an example from Candrak?rti....?) Perhaps the instance you are thinking of occurs in the first of CandrakIrti's closing verses to his _yuktiSaSTikA-vRtti_: klu yi rkyen yin 'jigs dang bcas pas yongs spangs pa rigs pa'i ku mu da 'di kha 'byed _zla ba_ ni nyes pa'i 'byung gnas rab rib rnam pa rab bcom nas blo gros mi ldan skye bo rnams la _grags pas_ mdzes regards, Paul Hackett Columbia University Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Feb 25 13:17:15 2009 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 09 08:17:15 -0500 Subject: Tibetan text of the Kasyapaparivarta commentary (data)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085084.23782.3568835586368379340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jonathan, I don't think the Kasyapaparivarta was ever available through ACIP. The full text in Tibetan (as well as Sanskrit and Chinese) is available from the Thesaurus Literaturae Buddhicae, however, at: https://husmann.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=library&library=TLB best, Paul Hackett Columbia University At 1:47 PM +0100 2/25/09, Jonathan Silk wrote: >Friends, thinking that I would always be able to get it, I never downloaded >the Tibetan text of the Kasyaparivarta commentary from the Asian Classics >Input Project website. That website is now unavailable, however. Does anyone >have that downloaded text, and would be willing to send it to me as an >attachment (off-list, of course)? > >many thanks in advance, jonathan > >-- >J. Silk >Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden >Postbus 9515 >2300 RA Leiden >Netherlands From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Wed Feb 25 17:13:58 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 09 09:13:58 -0800 Subject: signature verses and cikacika? In-Reply-To: <6454_1235575377_1235575377_3AF9B038A6B07641B36C799ED4EBB0D701E08684DB@ITCS-ECLS-1-VS3.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227085104.23782.5416036658593853102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Eli, In addition to the useful information supplied by Madhav, pl. note that, with a slight variation, the word occurs also in other philosophical/;saastric texts too, particularly where the phenomenon of perceptual error is discussed (mother of pearl being mistaken for piece of silver). Its usual form is caakacikya or caakacakya; cf. Hema-candra's Kaavyaanu;saasana-cuu.daa-ma.ni-viveka on the verse snigdha-;syaamala (Parikh-Dhruva edn p. 70. Enlarged Apte records an occurrence of caakacakya in the Vedaanta-paribhaa.saa without giving a location precisely. Other dictionaries may also be helpful if you vary the spelling as indicated. ashok On 09/05/24 7:19 AM, "Deshpande, Madhav" wrote: > The Skt word caikyacikya could possibly be related to what appears in Marathi > as cakcakNe "to shine in a flashy way", the adj cakcakIt "polished, clean". > franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE [franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE] > I came across a most peculiar sounding word in > Pramaanavaarttikalankaara 334,7, which I can't find in the > dictionaries: caikyacikya. I assume it is derived from cikacika, and > it must desribe some color (or shape) (ruupa). Any idea anyone? From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Wed Feb 25 17:17:35 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 09 09:17:35 -0800 Subject: signature verses and cikacika? In-Reply-To: <6454_1235575377_1235575377_3AF9B038A6B07641B36C799ED4EBB0D701E08684DB@ITCS-ECLS-1-VS3.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227085108.23782.15326095628417397272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kindly delete "also" from my first sentence below. Dear Eli, In addition to the useful information supplied by Madhav, pl. note that, with a slight variation, the word occurs also in other philosophical/;saastric texts too, particularly where the phenomenon of perceptual error is discussed (mother of pearl being mistaken for piece of silver). Its usual form is caakacikya or caakacakya; cf. Hema-candra's Kaavyaanu;saasana-cuu.daa-ma.ni-viveka on the verse snigdha-;syaamala (Parikh-Dhruva edn p. 70. Enlarged Apte records an occurrence of caakacakya in the Vedaanta-paribhaa.saa without giving a location precisely. Other dictionaries may also be helpful if you vary the spelling as indicated. ashok On 09/05/24 7:19 AM, "Deshpande, Madhav" wrote: > The Skt word caikyacikya could possibly be related to what appears in Marathi > as cakcakNe "to shine in a flashy way", the adj cakcakIt "polished, clean". > franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE [franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE] > I came across a most peculiar sounding word in > Pramaanavaarttikalankaara 334,7, which I can't find in the > dictionaries: caikyacikya. I assume it is derived from cikacika, and > it must desribe some color (or shape) (ruupa). Any idea anyone? From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Feb 25 15:19:35 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 09 10:19:35 -0500 Subject: signature verses and cikacika? In-Reply-To: <20090225154919.47703x1ns9vnurn3@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085093.23782.5537918645754310193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Skt word caikyacikya could possibly be related to what appears in Marathi as cakcakNe "to shine in a flashy way", the adj cakcakIt "polished, clean". Madhav M. Deshpande ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE [franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:49 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: signature verses and cikacika? A footnote to the discussion on signature verses. There are also such allusions in prose, for instance Aanandavardhana in Dhvanyaaloka (towards the very end of the commentary on the first verse--also identified as such by Abhinavagupta thereon: aananda iti ca granthakrto naama). I came across a most peculiar sounding word in Pramaanavaarttikalankaara 334,7, which I can't find in the dictionaries: caikyacikya. I assume it is derived from cikacika, and it must desribe some color (or shape) (ruupa). Any idea anyone? Quoting mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU: > It may be of interest in this connection that, > as I note in my article in > S. Pollock's Literary Cultures in History, > Sa skya Pandita actually compiled a short > anthology of such verses that involve the > author's self-praise. It is found in his > nga brgyad ma'i 'grel pa. This may therefore > be a useful source for locating some other > examples, preserved at least in Tibetan translation. > (All of Sa pan's examples are from Indian > Buddhist works.) > > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From jwn3y at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Wed Feb 25 16:58:35 2009 From: jwn3y at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (John William Nemec) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 09 11:58:35 -0500 Subject: signature verses and cikacika? In-Reply-To: <20090225154919.47703x1ns9vnurn3@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085101.23782.4823629021362901951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some authors offer more explicitly autobiographical information, as well. (Somaananda, c. 900-950, in his _Zivad.r.s.ti_ offers a semi-mythological account of his family's genealogy, one recording his family's entry into the Kashmir Valley, for example.) It might be worth considering the relative chronology and frequency of both practices. Also, it has been regularly argued that some authors include verses that refer to the patron who commissioned the work in question. (Kālidāsa of course comes to mind.) Is this a practice that precedes that of including signature verses? Finally, I find Sheldon Pollock's "Mimamsa and the Problem of History in Traditional India," _JAOS_ 109.4(Oct-Dec 1989): 603-10 relevant to the consideration of the anonymity and/or historicity of authors of Sanskrit works. Perhaps others do as well... Cheers, J.N. __________________________________ John Nemec, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Indian Religions and South Asian Studies Dept. of Religious Studies University of Virginia 120 Halsey Hall Charlottesville, VA 22911 (USA) nemec at virginia.edu +1-434-924-6716 From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Wed Feb 25 12:47:48 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 09 13:47:48 +0100 Subject: Tibetan text of the Kasyapaparivarta commentary (data)? Message-ID: <161227085081.23782.653181268471524753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, thinking that I would always be able to get it, I never downloaded the Tibetan text of the Kasyaparivarta commentary from the Asian Classics Input Project website. That website is now unavailable, however. Does anyone have that downloaded text, and would be willing to send it to me as an attachment (off-list, of course)? many thanks in advance, jonathan -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Wed Feb 25 14:41:32 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 09 15:41:32 +0100 Subject: Tibetan text of the Kasyapaparivarta commentary (data)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085087.23782.17944979019805866407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I explained to Paul privately, I am not after the sutra, but the commentary--thanks! On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Paul G. Hackett wrote: > Dear Jonathan, > > I don't think the Kasyapaparivarta was ever available through ACIP. The > full text in Tibetan (as well as Sanskrit and Chinese) is available from the > Thesaurus Literaturae Buddhicae, however, at: > > https://husmann.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=library&library=TLB > > best, > > Paul Hackett > Columbia University > > > > At 1:47 PM +0100 2/25/09, Jonathan Silk wrote: > >> Friends, thinking that I would always be able to get it, I never >> downloaded >> the Tibetan text of the Kasyaparivarta commentary from the Asian Classics >> Input Project website. That website is now unavailable, however. Does >> anyone >> have that downloaded text, and would be willing to send it to me as an >> attachment (off-list, of course)? >> >> many thanks in advance, jonathan >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden >> Postbus 9515 >> 2300 RA Leiden >> Netherlands >> > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Wed Feb 25 14:49:19 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 09 15:49:19 +0100 Subject: signature verses and cikacika? In-Reply-To: <20090224173622.BSZ25483@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085090.23782.13758507934222488400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A footnote to the discussion on signature verses. There are also such allusions in prose, for instance Aanandavardhana in Dhvanyaaloka (towards the very end of the commentary on the first verse--also identified as such by Abhinavagupta thereon: aananda iti ca granthakrto naama). I came across a most peculiar sounding word in Pramaanavaarttikalankaara 334,7, which I can't find in the dictionaries: caikyacikya. I assume it is derived from cikacika, and it must desribe some color (or shape) (ruupa). Any idea anyone? Quoting mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU: > It may be of interest in this connection that, > as I note in my article in > S. Pollock's Literary Cultures in History, > Sa skya Pandita actually compiled a short > anthology of such verses that involve the > author's self-praise. It is found in his > nga brgyad ma'i 'grel pa. This may therefore > be a useful source for locating some other > examples, preserved at least in Tibetan translation. > (All of Sa pan's examples are from Indian > Buddhist works.) > > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Wed Feb 25 15:50:45 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 09 16:50:45 +0100 Subject: Tibetan text of the Kasyapaparivarta commentary (data)? In-Reply-To: <49A563D4.50802@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085099.23782.16596155620740121030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I can't answer Dean's question (for some reason the site just doesn't have any of the texts anymore, without explanation), but someone sent me the data I need, so many thanks to all! On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Dean Michael Anderson < eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote: > What happened to the Asian Classics Input Project? > > Best, > > Dean > > > Jonathan Silk wrote: > >> Friends, thinking that I would always be able to get it, I never >> downloaded >> the Tibetan text of the Kasyaparivarta commentary from the Asian Classics >> Input Project website. That website is now unavailable, however. Does >> anyone >> have that downloaded text, and would be willing to send it to me as an >> attachment (off-list, of course)? >> >> many thanks in advance, jonathan >> >> >> > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 25 17:14:13 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 09 17:14:13 +0000 Subject: On many languages, book circulation, reading and time Message-ID: <161227085106.23782.10624533496877457760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With Professor Pandurangi's agreement, I forward a lightly abbreviated form of some remarks he made to me earlier today, that raise good questions about models of publishing, the cost and distribution of books, problems of scholarship across language boundaries, etc. --- > On Wed, 25 Feb 2009, veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: [...] But the important thing is the barrier of language. It seems everybody is writing is every language: Kannada, Tamil, Telugu, Hindi, Bengali, English, French, German, Italian, Spanish, not to forget the remarkable scholarship in Japanese. I don't know how many more are there are. How could anybody read and understand all these languages? Hence there is an urgent need to do something on this front. It is really difficult. For, me, personally, writing something in German or French is like writing something very important in my own language i.e. Kannada: most of the people in North America and India don't understand it. It will not reach the target. If any author thinks his French or German book should be known by all the heads of the departments in India, then really it is totally impossible. In India there are still thousands of people writing and reading Sanskrit texts. But one cannot expect his theory to be popular here in India. He should make it reach the majority of Indian scholars either by writing in readable Sanskrit or readable English. It should reach Indian universities in affordable price surely not be sold in Euros. It certainly reaches the people. Of course I agree there is language compulsion in every country. German people need to write in German. I know otherewise they will not be read in Germany. But what he will achieve? How many German people will be reading his book. How many people have read Prof. Gerschheimer's (sic? but, sorry) Shaktivada (what I am working on now) [French] translation? It is a big question. May be four or five? Then why to write it? How many things we have yet to read? This is very important question Prof Slaje has raised. Should every head of Dept of Darshans read all the stuff of Middle Indic (what it means?). There is barrier. We have been reading all the life and still completed nothing more than a handful of works. Reading, seriously, is somehow is very difficult task. I hope I will not be able to read not more than three or four works in my future life (I am 36 now). Reading, as practised for centuries in India, is really very comprehensive. One man can understand only a few works completely if works whole of his life for that. Sorry, it is too much[....] Thanks, [...] Veeranarayana -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 25 15:29:24 2009 From: eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 09 20:59:24 +0530 Subject: Tibetan text of the Kasyapaparivarta commentary (data)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085096.23782.17440293015161760969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What happened to the Asian Classics Input Project? Best, Dean Jonathan Silk wrote: > Friends, thinking that I would always be able to get it, I never downloaded > the Tibetan text of the Kasyaparivarta commentary from the Asian Classics > Input Project website. That website is now unavailable, however. Does anyone > have that downloaded text, and would be willing to send it to me as an > attachment (off-list, of course)? > > many thanks in advance, jonathan > > From veltsch at OEAW.AC.AT Wed Feb 25 23:29:16 2009 From: veltsch at OEAW.AC.AT (Vincent Eltschinger) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 09 00:29:16 +0100 Subject: signature verses and cikacika? In-Reply-To: <20090225154919.47703x1ns9vnurn3@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085111.23782.14864830163860411501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Eli, An interesting locus for caikacikya is Kar.nakagomin's PVSVT 122,10-15 ad PV 1.44, in the context of the apoha theory. Bis bald, Vincent > A footnote to the discussion on signature verses. There are also such > allusions in prose, for instance Aanandavardhana in Dhvanyaaloka > (towards the very end of the commentary on the first verse--also > identified as such by Abhinavagupta thereon: aananda iti ca > granthakrto naama). > > I came across a most peculiar sounding word in > Pramaanavaarttikalankaara 334,7, which I can't find in the > dictionaries: caikyacikya. I assume it is derived from cikacika, and > it must desribe some color (or shape) (ruupa). Any idea anyone? > > > Quoting mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU: > >> It may be of interest in this connection that, >> as I note in my article in >> S. Pollock's Literary Cultures in History, >> Sa skya Pandita actually compiled a short >> anthology of such verses that involve the >> author's self-praise. It is found in his >> nga brgyad ma'i 'grel pa. This may therefore >> be a useful source for locating some other >> examples, preserved at least in Tibetan translation. >> (All of Sa pan's examples are from Indian >> Buddhist works.) >> >> >> Matthew T. Kapstein >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies >> The University of Chicago Divinity School >> >> Directeur d'?tudes >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu Feb 26 03:24:16 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 09 08:54:16 +0530 Subject: signature verses and cikacika? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085113.23782.633805437977458080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> caakcikya 'shine', 'glitter'?was an often used?Bengali word at least till the fifties, both in literature and dialect. It is still employed sometimes. There was some debate on the correctness of the word with some authors/scholars proposing the correct form as caakacakya. This certainly derives fron cakacaka or cakcak?and? caikyacikya from cik(a)cik(a), caakcikya having elements from both.?Obviously, the word is of onomatopoeic origin. DB --- On Wed, 25/2/09, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: From: Ashok Aklujkar Subject: Re: signature verses and cikacika? To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 25 February, 2009, 10:47 PM Kindly delete "also" from my first sentence below. Dear Eli, In addition to the useful information supplied by Madhav, pl. note that, with a slight variation, the word occurs also in other philosophical/;saastric texts too, particularly where the phenomenon of perceptual error is discussed (mother of pearl being mistaken for piece of silver). Its usual form is caakacikya or caakacakya; cf. Hema-candra's Kaavyaanu;saasana-cuu.daa-ma.ni-viveka on the verse snigdha-;syaamala (Parikh-Dhruva edn p. 70. Enlarged Apte records an occurrence of caakacakya in the Vedaanta-paribhaa.saa without giving a location precisely. Other dictionaries may also be helpful if you vary the spelling as indicated. ashok On 09/05/24 7:19 AM, "Deshpande, Madhav" wrote: > The Skt word caikyacikya could possibly be related to what appears in Marathi > as cakcakNe "to shine in a flashy way", the adj cakcakIt "polished, clean". > franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE [franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE] > I came across a most peculiar sounding word in > Pramaanavaarttikalankaara 334,7, which I can't find in the > dictionaries: caikyacikya. I assume it is derived from cikacika, and > it must desribe some color (or shape) (ruupa). Any idea anyone? Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu Feb 26 09:27:59 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 09 10:27:59 +0100 Subject: signature verses and cikacika? In-Reply-To: <749019.40420.qm@web8603.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085115.23782.3431861220663184722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you Ashok, Madhav, Vincent and Dipak for most useful comments and references. I may add perhaps that unlike in the other sources mentioned, the word is not used in the PVA in the context of error, but in a context where one argues about the coordination between qualities: when something changes the quality of touch (becoming soft--mas.r.na), its color changes too (its caikacikya, etc., changes). The passage without reference in Apte to the Vedaantapribhaa.sa is quoted in Nyaayakosa (there too without a reference). Best wishes, Eli Quoting Dipak Bhattacharya : > > caakcikya 'shine', 'glitter'?was an often used?Bengali word at least > till the fifties, both in literature and dialect. It is still > employed sometimes. There was some debate on the correctness of the > word with some authors/scholars proposing the correct form as > caakacakya. This certainly derives fron cakacaka or cakcak?and? > caikyacikya from cik(a)cik(a), caakcikya having elements from > both.?Obviously, the word is of onomatopoeic origin. > DB > > --- On Wed, 25/2/09, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > > From: Ashok Aklujkar > Subject: Re: signature verses and cikacika? > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Wednesday, 25 February, 2009, 10:47 PM > > Kindly delete "also" from my first sentence below. > > > > Dear Eli, > > In addition to the useful information supplied by Madhav, pl. note that, > with a slight variation, the word occurs also in other > philosophical/;saastric texts too, particularly where the phenomenon of > perceptual error is discussed (mother of pearl being mistaken for piece of > silver). Its usual form is caakacikya or caakacakya; cf. Hema-candra's > Kaavyaanu;saasana-cuu.daa-ma.ni-viveka on the verse snigdha-;syaamala > (Parikh-Dhruva edn p. 70. Enlarged Apte records an occurrence of caakacakya > in the Vedaanta-paribhaa.saa without giving a location precisely. Other > dictionaries may also be helpful if you vary the spelling as indicated. > > ashok > > > On 09/05/24 7:19 AM, "Deshpande, Madhav" > wrote: > >> The Skt word caikyacikya could possibly be related to what appears in > Marathi >> as cakcakNe "to shine in a flashy way", the adj cakcakIt > "polished, clean". > >> franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE [franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE] > >> I came across a most peculiar sounding word in >> Pramaanavaarttikalankaara 334,7, which I can't find in the >> dictionaries: caikyacikya. I assume it is derived from cikacika, and >> it must desribe some color (or shape) (ruupa). Any idea anyone? > > > > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. > Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Thu Feb 26 10:00:20 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 09 11:00:20 +0100 Subject: cikacika/cakacaka etc. (was: Re: signature verses and cikacika?) In-Reply-To: <20090226102759.19627f44rqh9f7hb@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085118.23782.15069134717167262385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > Thank you Ashok, Madhav, Vincent and Dipak for most useful comments > and references. > I may add perhaps that unlike in the other sources mentioned, the word > is not used in the PVA in the context of error, but in a context where > one argues about the coordination between qualities: when something > changes the quality of touch (becoming soft--mas.r.na), its color > changes too (its caikacikya, etc., changes). > The passage without reference in Apte to the Vedaantapribhaa.sa is > quoted in Nyaayakosa (there too without a reference). > Best wishes, > Eli > The word "c?kacikyat?" (?) occurs in a list of qualities in Tarkarahasyad?pik?, fourth adhik?ra (Jaina), 334 (cited after e-text, unchecked): vi?e?ata? ca gha??nantadravye?v apar?par?pek?ayaikena dv?bhy?m tribhir v? y?vad anantair v? dharmair vilak?a?a ity anantaprak?ravailak?a?yahetuk? anant?? svadharm?h; anantadravy?pek?ay? ca gha?asya sth?lat?k??at?samat?vi?amat?s?k?mat?b?darat?t?vrat?c?kacikyat?(c?kacakyat??)saumyat?p?thut?sa?k?r?at?n?catoccat?vi??lamukhat?daya? pratyekam anantavidh?? syu? / tata? sth?lat?didv?re??py anant? dharm?? / sambandhatas tv anantak?len?nantai? parair vastubhi? samam prastutagha?asy?dh?r?dheyabh?vo 'nantavidho bhavanti; tatas tadapek?ay?py anant?? svadharm?? / Further, cf. Ny?yakandal? p. 425 (likewise e-text, unchecked): yac cedam ukta? ?uktik?lambanatvam anubhavaviruddham iti, tad as?ram, idantay? niyatade??dhikara?asya c?kacikyavi?i??asya ?uktik??akalasy?pi pratibhasan?t. The context here is clearly the mother-of-pearl error, but the use of the word makes it clear that a special "c?kacikya" characterises the piece of mother-of-pearl (presumably as shiny in one way or another) - the meaning "illusion" that Monier-Williams has for "c?kacikya" would then be a category mistake, mistaking a word for a quality of a particular erroneously identified object for a word for the error itself. Finally, there's also an occurrence of "c?kacakya" in a Dhvany?loka-commentary, Uddyota 2 (this time from GRETIL, unproofed e-text, see http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil/1_sanskr/5_poetry/1_alam/andhvc2u.htm): snigdhay? jalasambandhasarasay? ?y?malay? dravi?avanitocit?sitavar?ay? k?nty? c?kacakyena liptam?cchurita? viyannabho yai? vellantyo vij?mbham???stat? calantya? parabh?gava??tprahar?ava??cca bal?k?? b?lapriy? r?p?ntarapari?ata iti arth?ntare sa?kramitam ity asyaiva vivara?am / I'm also wondering whether the Tibetan translation of Praj??karagupta might not shed further light on the semantics. All the best, Birgit From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu Feb 26 11:48:58 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 09 12:48:58 +0100 Subject: cikacika/cakacaka etc. (was: Re: signature verses and cikacika?) In-Reply-To: <49A66834.9020105@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227085122.23782.7893150836872677323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you Birgit. The Tibetan translation (sdud) was of no help. The translators must have thought that the word is derived from the root ci (accumulate). Best wishes, Eli Quoting Birgit Kellner : > franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> Thank you Ashok, Madhav, Vincent and Dipak for most useful comments >> and references. >> I may add perhaps that unlike in the other sources mentioned, the >> word is not used in the PVA in the context of error, but in a >> context where one argues about the coordination between qualities: >> when something changes the quality of touch (becoming >> soft--mas.r.na), its color changes too (its caikacikya, etc., >> changes). >> The passage without reference in Apte to the Vedaantapribhaa.sa is >> quoted in Nyaayakosa (there too without a reference). >> Best wishes, >> Eli >> > The word "c?kacikyat?" (?) occurs in a list of qualities in > Tarkarahasyad?pik?, fourth adhik?ra (Jaina), 334 (cited after > e-text, unchecked): > > vi?e?ata? ca gha??nantadravye?v apar?par?pek?ayaikena dv?bhy?m > tribhir v? y?vad anantair v? dharmair vilak?a?a ity > anantaprak?ravailak?a?yahetuk? anant?? svadharm?h; > anantadravy?pek?ay? ca gha?asya > sth?lat?k??at?samat?vi?amat?s?k?mat?b?darat?t?vrat?c?kacikyat?(c?kacakyat??)saumyat?p?thut?sa?k?r?at?n?catoccat?vi??lamukhat?daya? pratyekam anantavidh?? syu? / tata? sth?lat?didv?re??py anant? dharm?? / sambandhatas tv anantak?len?nantai? parair vastubhi? samam prastutagha?asy?dh?r?dheyabh?vo 'nantavidho bhavanti; tatas tadapek?ay?py anant?? svadharm?? > / > > Further, cf. Ny?yakandal? p. 425 (likewise e-text, unchecked): > > yac cedam ukta? ?uktik?lambanatvam anubhavaviruddham iti, tad > as?ram, idantay? niyatade??dhikara?asya c?kacikyavi?i??asya > ?uktik??akalasy?pi pratibhasan?t. > > The context here is clearly the mother-of-pearl error, but the use > of the word makes it clear that a special "c?kacikya" characterises > the piece of mother-of-pearl (presumably as shiny in one way or > another) - the meaning "illusion" that Monier-Williams has for > "c?kacikya" would then be a category mistake, mistaking a word for a > quality of a particular erroneously identified object for a word for > the error itself. > > Finally, there's also an occurrence of "c?kacakya" in a > Dhvany?loka-commentary, Uddyota 2 (this time from GRETIL, unproofed > e-text, see > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil/1_sanskr/5_poetry/1_alam/andhvc2u.htm): snigdhay? jalasambandhasarasay? ?y?malay? dravi?avanitocit?sitavar?ay? k?nty? c?kacakyena liptam?cchurita? viyannabho yai? vellantyo vij?mbham???stat? calantya? parabh?gava??tprahar?ava??cca bal?k?? b?lapriy? r?p?ntarapari?ata iti arth?ntare sa?kramitam ity asyaiva vivara?am > / > > I'm also wondering whether the Tibetan translation of > Praj??karagupta might not shed further light on the semantics. > > All the best, > > Birgit > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From aakamat at BUN.KYOTO-U.AC.JP Thu Feb 26 10:13:30 2009 From: aakamat at BUN.KYOTO-U.AC.JP (Akihiko Akamatsu) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 09 19:13:30 +0900 Subject: the 14th World Sanskrit Conference Message-ID: <161227085120.23782.11049519058962046277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, The 14th World Sanskrit Conference will be held in Kyoto, Japan in September 1-5, 2009. The organizers would like to inform that the detailed information concerning the registration, accommodation, and other practical matters is available at our revised web-site: http://www.indology.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/14thWSC/ In addition to the web-version of the 2nd circular, the site contains the on-line system of registration and payment of registration fee. We request all the participants to make the on-line registration for the sake of our manageability, even if you have already sent us your registration form. We appreciate your cooperation. I apologize for a possible double mailing, as some of you might have received this document in another posting. Conference Secretary 14th WSC Akihiko Akamatsu From Loriliai.Biernacki at COLORADO.EDU Fri Feb 27 16:52:03 2009 From: Loriliai.Biernacki at COLORADO.EDU (Loriliai Biernacki) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 09 09:52:03 -0700 Subject: Job teaching HIndi Message-ID: <161227085124.23782.2408149336845754605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear folks, Here is an ad for a Hindi position we want to fill for the fall. Please pass this on to anyone you think may be interested. Thanks. The Department of Asian Languages and Civilizations at the University of Colorado, Boulder invites applications for an Instructor position in Hindi language to begin August 2009. Requirements include at least the MA in Hindi or related field (PhD preferred), experience teaching all levels of Hindi at the college level, and evidence of managing/coordinating a Hindi language program. To apply, applicants must submit a letter of application, a current CV, copies of syllabi of courses taught, and three letters of recommendation. Applications are accepted electronically at https://www.jobsatcu.com, posting 806444 through March 31, 2009. The University of Colorado at Boulder is committed to diversity and equality in education and employment. See www.Colorado.edu/ArtsSciences/Jobs/ for full job description. ? All best, Loriliai Biernacki Associate Professor University of Colorado at Boulder UCB 292 Boulder, CO 80309 303-735-4730 Loriliai.Biernacki at colorado.edu http://www.colorado.edu/ReligiousStudies/faculty/loriliai.biernacki.html From h.arganisjuarez at YAHOO.COM.MX Sat Feb 28 18:41:26 2009 From: h.arganisjuarez at YAHOO.COM.MX (Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 09 10:41:26 -0800 Subject: Krishna as Vishnu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085138.23782.11006020840754936289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor: ?Referring to the ontological position of Krishna like Visnu, I recommend?you?to read all? Jiva Goswami's ?work Krishna Sandharbha and the Caitanya Caritanmrita of Krishna dasa Kaviraja?, Adi lila?2. ?Greetings. Horacio Francisco Arganis Ju?rez LIc. M.A. Researcher Professor. Filosophy and Religius Studies Departament. Universidad Internacional Euroamericana. UIE. Instituto de Estudios Filos?ficos A.C. Instituto de Ciencias y Humanidades Bhaktivedanta. A. C. Saltillo, Coah. M?xico. --- El s?b 28-feb-09, Harsha Dehejia escribi?: De:: Harsha Dehejia Asunto: Krishna as Vishnu A: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Fecha: s?bado, 28 febrero, 2009, 1:04 pm Friends: I am researching multi-arm images of Krishna. It seems to be that at some point Krishna ceases to be an avatara and becomes Vishnu himself. A case in point is Jagganath Puri where Krishna is Jagganath, an appellation reserved for Vishnu. A Nepali stone image (?12 th century) that I recently saw shows Krishna with 8 arms holding even a Sudarshan chakra. Am I on the right track? Any help would be appreciated. Regards. Harsha V. Dehejia Ottawa, ON., Canada. __________________________________________________ Correo Yahoo! Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ?gratis! Reg?strate ya - http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/ From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Sat Feb 28 17:02:26 2009 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 09 12:02:26 -0500 Subject: Krishna as Vishnu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085135.23782.15450080566870665457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Harasha (and others who might beinterested) If you search the Huntington Archive for Krishna OR Krisna ( I did them separately but you can use boolean modifiers) you will get a total of 275 results for the name and a fair number of them are multi armed. The archive is at: http://huntingtonarchive.osu.edu/database.htm Have fun John On Feb 28, 2009, at 8:04 AM, Harsha Dehejia wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am researching multi-arm images of Krishna. > > > > It seems to be that at some point Krishna ceases to be an avatara > and becomes Vishnu himself. > > > > A case in point is Jagganath Puri where Krishna is Jagganath, an > appellation reserved for Vishnu. > > > > A Nepali stone image (?12 th century) that I recently saw shows > Krishna with 8 arms holding even a Sudarshan chakra. > > > > Am I on the right track? Any help would be appreciated. > > > > Regards. > > > > Harsha V. Dehejia > > Ottawa, ON., Canada. > > > -- > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 814614644) is spam: > Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=814614644&m=73667b3fbe67 > Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=814614644&m=73667b3fbe67 > Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=814614644&m=73667b3fbe67 > ------------------------------------------------------ > END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 28 13:04:25 2009 From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 09 13:04:25 +0000 Subject: Krishna as Vishnu Message-ID: <161227085127.23782.730097377290086717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends: I am researching multi-arm images of Krishna. It seems to be that at some point Krishna ceases to be an avatara and becomes Vishnu himself. A case in point is Jagganath Puri where Krishna is Jagganath, an appellation reserved for Vishnu. A Nepali stone image (?12 th century) that I recently saw shows Krishna with 8 arms holding even a Sudarshan chakra. Am I on the right track? Any help would be appreciated. Regards. Harsha V. Dehejia Ottawa, ON., Canada. From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Sat Feb 28 14:34:00 2009 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 09 14:34:00 +0000 Subject: Krishna as Vishnu In-Reply-To: <176884.42837.qm@web8602.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085132.23782.6705212490082981381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following titles may also be of some help: Podzeit, Utz: Bemerkungen zum "Sinn" des Namens Vasudeva. In: WZKS 38(1994), S. 191-200. Schmid, Charlotte: Repr?sentations de Naraya?a dans la Mathura d'?poque Kouchane: In: JA 285,1(1997), S. 235-280. Narayaniya-Studien. Hrsg. von P. Schreiner, A. Malinar, R. Gruenendahl, Th. Oberlies. Wiesbaden 1997 [Purana Research Publications. 6.] Couture, Andr?: The emergence of a group of four characters (Vasudeva, Sa?kar?a?a, Pradyumna, and Aniruddha) in the Hariva?sa points for consideration. In: JIP 34 S. 571-585. WS "Dipak Bhattacharya" schrieb: > The Mahabharata registers an integration in the early centuries of the present era. The Vaasudeva element was made a part of the Pancaraatra philosophy ie the philosophical foundation of the Vaisnavas at not too distant an age. The best synchronic discussions will be found in Gopinath Kaviraj's works. But those are mostly available in Bengali and Hindi. Gonda hardly helps. > DB > > --- On Sat, 28/2/09, Harsha Dehejia wrote: > > From: Harsha Dehejia > Subject: Krishna as Vishnu > To: mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Saturday, 28 February, 2009, 6:34 PM > > Friends: > > > > I am researching multi-arm images of Krishna. > > > > It seems to be that at some point Krishna ceases to be an avatara and becomes > Vishnu himself. > > > > A case in point is Jagganath Puri where Krishna is Jagganath, an appellation > reserved for Vishnu. > > > > A Nepali stone image (?12 th century) that I recently saw shows Krishna with 8 > arms holding even a Sudarshan chakra. > > > > Am I on the right track? Any help would be appreciated. > > > > Regards. > > > > Harsha V. Dehejia > > Ottawa, ON., Canada. > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > -- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sat Feb 28 13:18:55 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 09 18:48:55 +0530 Subject: Krishna as Vishnu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085129.23782.8814507498521199029.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Mahabharata registers an integration in the early centuries of the present era. The Vaasudeva element was made a part of the Pancaraatra philosophy ie the philosophical foundation of the Vaisnavas at not too distant an age. The best synchronic discussions will be found in Gopinath Kaviraj's works.? But those are mostly available in Bengali and Hindi. Gonda hardly helps. DB --- On Sat, 28/2/09, Harsha Dehejia wrote: From: Harsha Dehejia Subject: Krishna as Vishnu To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Saturday, 28 February, 2009, 6:34 PM Friends: I am researching multi-arm images of Krishna. It seems to be that at some point Krishna ceases to be an avatara and becomes Vishnu himself. A case in point is Jagganath Puri where Krishna is Jagganath, an appellation reserved for Vishnu. A Nepali stone image (?12 th century) that I recently saw shows Krishna with 8 arms holding even a Sudarshan chakra. Am I on the right track? Any help would be appreciated. Regards. Harsha V. Dehejia Ottawa, ON., Canada. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/