From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 2 17:42:19 2009 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 09 19:42:19 +0200 Subject: Summer Sanskrit U of Manitoba Message-ID: <161227085645.23782.8937339553717368755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues Apologies for the late posting. The University of Manitoba Summer Session is offering 1st year Sanskrit this May-June 2009 NOTE: Application deadline is April 6, 2009 Course Description: ASIA 1780 - Basic Sanskrit (Formerly 150.178) Students will first learn the Devanagari script then proceed to reading, writing, pronunciation, grammar and vocabulary. Not open to students who previously obtained credit for ASIA 2780 (150.278). 0.0 TO 6.000 Credit Hours Levels: Undergraduate Lecture 1:30 pm - 3:30 pm MTWRF TIER BUILDING 302 May 04, 2009 - May 27, 2009 Lecture 1:30 pm - 3:30 pm MTWRF TIER BUILDING 302 Jun 01, 2009 - Jun 23, 2009 Course text will be Goldman and Goldman?s Devav??iprave?ik? Course design will aim to complete at least the first 18 chapters Registration Procedures Non University of Manitoba students may apply for admission to the course as a Visiting Student, provided with a permission letter from their home university authorizing credit transfer. Go to http://umanitoba.ca/backup/index.html and click on ?Aurora Student? Or https://aurora.umanitoba.ca/banprod/twbkwbis.P_GenMenu?name=homepage Click on ?Apply for Undergraduate Admission? and follow the instructions. Once the student has registered, paid fees, and received a student number and PIN, they can return to this page and ?Enter Secure Area? to register for the course. Fees For Canadian students, the fees are (in Canadian Dollars) $80 Application Fee $600 Tuition ($100 per each of the 6 credit hours) $75 student fees For International Students the fees are (in Canadian Dollars) $110 Application Fee $1080 Tuition $75 Student Fees $152 Canadian Health Insurance (required, unless the student can provide proof of health insurance coverage) Regards, James Hartzell, PhD Instructor Asian Studies and Religion 463 University College University of Manitoba Winnipeg, MB R3L 2M8 Canada Tel: +1 204 474 7656 From annamisia at YAHOO.COM Tue Apr 7 08:40:09 2009 From: annamisia at YAHOO.COM (Anna A. Slaczka) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 09 01:40:09 -0700 Subject: Bibliography ? In-Reply-To: <4C1420AD-3CCC-48C3-A21C-743A8AF0EEC9@mac.com> Message-ID: <161227085650.23782.12497599323743358571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr Storm, For 'almost completely updated' bibliography (the index probably does not include 2008 and 2009 yet), including articles, you can check the index of the ABIA-project: http://www.abia.net/ Best regards, Anna Slaczka. Dr. Anna A. Slaczka Kern Institute of Indology Leiden University The Netherlands --- On Tue, 4/7/09, Mary Storm wrote: > From: Mary Storm > Subject: Bibliography ? > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 10:31 AM > Dear Indologists, > > Is anyone familiar with an updated bibliography on Indian > art history/archaeology? > > Thank you so much for your help! > > Mary Storm > > > Mary Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director > North India Arts and Culture > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > School for International Training > www.sit.edu > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > F-301 Lado Sarai > 2nd Fl > New Delhi 110030 India From jkirk at SPRO.NET Tue Apr 7 13:15:04 2009 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 09 07:15:04 -0600 Subject: Bibliography ? In-Reply-To: <4C1420AD-3CCC-48C3-A21C-743A8AF0EEC9@mac.com> Message-ID: <161227085663.23782.10896557400381237778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mary Strong If you are not a member of ACSAA, want me to post your query on their list? I usually get results from posting qeuries there. Cheers, Joanna Kirkpatrick www.artsricksha.com -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Mary Storm Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:31 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Bibliography ? Dear Indologists, Is anyone familiar with an updated bibliography on Indian art history/ archaeology? Thank you so much for your help! Mary Storm Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director North India Arts and Culture and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for International Training www.sit.edu Mobile +91 98106 98003 F-301 Lado Sarai 2nd Fl New Delhi 110030 India From jkirk at SPRO.NET Tue Apr 7 15:08:10 2009 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 09 09:08:10 -0600 Subject: Bibliography ? In-Reply-To: <68F0EC4F09584A29B894BB5E75F715E4@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <161227085672.23782.462651997083647660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apology to Mary Storm for getting the surname wrong-- JK -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of jkirk Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 7:15 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Bibliography ? Dear Mary Strong If you are not a member of ACSAA, want me to post your query on their list? I usually get results from posting qeuries there. Cheers, Joanna Kirkpatrick www.artsricksha.com -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Mary Storm Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:31 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Bibliography ? Dear Indologists, Is anyone familiar with an updated bibliography on Indian art history/ archaeology? Thank you so much for your help! Mary Storm Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director North India Arts and Culture and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for International Training www.sit.edu Mobile +91 98106 98003 F-301 Lado Sarai 2nd Fl New Delhi 110030 India From jkirk at SPRO.NET Tue Apr 7 15:11:33 2009 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 09 09:11:33 -0600 Subject: Bibliography ? In-Reply-To: <5C2E8410-D88E-45A5-B966-7F5899119428@mac.com> Message-ID: <161227085674.23782.13399804370243805814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What I had in mind wasn't their old bibliography, but suggestions of recent sources. Cheers, JK -------------- I think I am ACSAA lapsed... I should rejoin. I know ACSAA had a bibliography YEARS ago (the late 70's!), I am looking for something recent... Thanks! Mary Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director North India Arts and Culture and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for International Training www.sit.edu Mobile +91 98106 98003 F-301 Lado Sarai 2nd Fl New Delhi 110030 India On 07-Apr-09, at 6:45 PM, jkirk wrote: > Dear Mary Strong > > If you are not a member of ACSAA, want me to post your query on their > list? I usually get results from posting qeuries there. > > Cheers, Joanna Kirkpatrick > www.artsricksha.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Mary > Storm > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:31 AM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Bibliography ? > > Dear Indologists, > > Is anyone familiar with an updated bibliography on Indian art history/ > archaeology? > > Thank you so much for your help! > > Mary Storm > > > Mary Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director > North India Arts and Culture > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for > International Training www.sit.edu > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > F-301 Lado Sarai > 2nd Fl > New Delhi 110030 India From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Apr 7 13:50:47 2009 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 09 09:50:47 -0400 Subject: Bibliography ? In-Reply-To: <262458.90516.qm@web55906.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085670.23782.9734047634960392903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Storm, a further treasure trove of bibliographic citations on Indian art history and archaeology can be found in the online Bibliography of Asian Studies. This multi-disciplinary, Asia-wide bibliography is continuously updated (and already includes 2008 and some 2009 references) and is considered one of the best sources for article- level information on chapters and articles in edited volumes, collected works and anthologies, conference proceedings, festrschrifts, etc. on South Asia. Of course it also includes journal articles from hundreds journals from and about India (and South Asia), many of which are not regularly indexed anywhere else. As a bibliographic discovery tool, the BAS is excellent as a searchable INDEX (complete with multiple subject headings, keywords, annotations, title translations, etc.) of tens of thousands of India-related articles from festschrifts, collected works, edited volumes, conference proceedings, etc. The Bibliography of Asian Studies is published online by the Association for Asian Studies, at . Of course, it is not free, but I have found that most research libraries and universities maintain the inexpensive institutional subscriptions on behalf of their scholars and students. Another nice feature is that the full-time BAS Associate Editor for South Asia [full disclosure: she's my wife!], herself a scholar of Indian history, takes direct suggestions from the community about items to be included in the index for Indology, art history, archaeology, and all other fields of study related to South Asia. She is Dr. Aruna P. Magier . Best, David Magier Editor of SARAI ----------------------- David Magier, PhD Associate University Librarian for Collection Development Princeton University Firestone Library One Washington Road Princeton, NJ 08544 609-258-5710 609-258-6950 fax dmagier at princeton.edu On Apr 7, 2009, at 4:40 AM, Anna A. Slaczka wrote: > Dear Dr Storm, > > For 'almost completely updated' bibliography (the index probably > does not include 2008 and 2009 yet), including articles, you can > check the index of the ABIA-project: > http://www.abia.net/ > > Best regards, > > Anna Slaczka. > > > Dr. Anna A. Slaczka > Kern Institute of Indology > Leiden University > The Netherlands > > > > --- On Tue, 4/7/09, Mary Storm wrote: > >> From: Mary Storm >> Subject: Bibliography ? >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 10:31 AM >> Dear Indologists, >> >> Is anyone familiar with an updated bibliography on Indian >> art history/archaeology? >> >> Thank you so much for your help! >> >> Mary Storm >> >> >> Mary Storm, Ph.D. >> Academic Director >> North India Arts and Culture >> and >> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture >> SIT Study Abroad >> School for International Training >> www.sit.edu >> >> Mobile +91 98106 98003 >> F-301 Lado Sarai >> 2nd Fl >> New Delhi 110030 India > > > > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Apr 7 09:37:48 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 09 10:37:48 +0100 Subject: Carbon dating of palm-leaf MSS? Message-ID: <161227085657.23782.4680317110814905331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This message is forwarded on behalf of R. Ganapathy, who is not a member of this forum. Please be sure to CC any replies to him, at Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY committee ------------ Forwarded Message ----------- On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, RG wrote: > Dear Dr Wujastyk: > > I got your address through a friend of mine in London. > > I was a Senior Res Associate at the Enrico Fermi Inst of the Univ of Chicago > many years ago. > > I have a palm leaf manuscript, 868 pages, with grantha script describing > Valmiki's Ramayan. I got this from an antique shop in Cochin five years ago. > > Because grantha was used in South India to transmit Sanskrit language, I > decided to date this using carbon-14 method using accelerator mass > spectrometry. I just got the preliminary age few days ago, about 350 years > old from today. > > I searched the google to find other carbon 14 dates on the use of grantha > script. I did not get any useful information. Since I am new to this field, > I am looking for help in locating journals which publish C-14 dates on > Indian palm leaf manuscripts. What kind of range do we have on these > dates?I would deeply appreciate if you can help me on this. > > Thank you. > > Sincerely, > > R.Ganapathy > > Bethlehem, PA, USA > > From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Tue Apr 7 09:52:47 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 09 11:52:47 +0200 Subject: Carbon dating of palm-leaf MSS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085659.23782.16987742259297207426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Carbon-14 dating of some Sanskrit palm-leaf manuscripts from Central Asia (Kushana and Gupta period) were done by the Ethnological Museum, Berlin. Best wishes, Eli Franco Zitat von Dominik Wujastyk : > This message is forwarded on behalf of R. Ganapathy, who is not a > member of this forum. Please be sure to CC any replies to him, at > > > Dominik Wujastyk > INDOLOGY committee > > ------------ Forwarded Message ----------- > On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, RG wrote: > >> Dear Dr Wujastyk: >> >> I got your address through a friend of mine in London. >> >> I was a Senior Res Associate at the Enrico Fermi Inst of the Univ of Chicago >> many years ago. >> >> I have a palm leaf manuscript, 868 pages, with grantha script describing >> Valmiki's Ramayan. I got this from an antique shop in Cochin five years ago. >> >> Because grantha was used in South India to transmit Sanskrit language, I >> decided to date this using carbon-14 method using accelerator mass >> spectrometry. I just got the preliminary age few days ago, about 350 years >> old from today. >> >> I searched the google to find other carbon 14 dates on the use of grantha >> script. I did not get any useful information. Since I am new to this field, >> I am looking for help in locating journals which publish C-14 dates on >> Indian palm leaf manuscripts. What kind of range do we have on these >> dates?I would deeply appreciate if you can help me on this. >> >> Thank you. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> R.Ganapathy >> >> Bethlehem, PA, USA >> >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Tue Apr 7 10:03:39 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 09 12:03:39 +0200 Subject: Carbon dating of palm-leaf MSS? In-Reply-To: <20090407115247.20083landqxu3otr@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085661.23782.1362090170013308072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE schrieb: > Carbon-14 dating of some Sanskrit palm-leaf manuscripts from Central > Asia (Kushana and Gupta period) were done by the Ethnological Museum, > Berlin. > Best wishes, > Eli Franco > > There was also a discussion on carbon-dating manuscripts at a panel at the last conference of the International Association of Buddhist Studies in Atlanta (2008), occasioned by a presentation (I think) by Harry Falk - hopefully, the papers of this panel will be published. Mark Allon apparently also has a lot of experience in this area (and is also subscribed to this list ...) For a neophyte such as myself, it all sounded terribly complicated - even decoding the results (percentages of certainty spread across date ranges) seemed far from trivial. All the best, Birgit Kellner From mnstorm at MAC.COM Tue Apr 7 08:31:25 2009 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 09 14:01:25 +0530 Subject: Bibliography ? Message-ID: <161227085648.23782.2077873723388304014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Is anyone familiar with an updated bibliography on Indian art history/ archaeology? Thank you so much for your help! Mary Storm Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director North India Arts and Culture and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for International Training www.sit.edu Mobile +91 98106 98003 F-301 Lado Sarai 2nd Fl New Delhi 110030 India From mnstorm at MAC.COM Tue Apr 7 08:44:04 2009 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 09 14:14:04 +0530 Subject: Bibliography ? In-Reply-To: <262458.90516.qm@web55906.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085654.23782.17721577017594699719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks so much, this link is exactly what I need! Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director North India Arts and Culture and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for International Training www.sit.edu Mobile +91 98106 98003 F-301 Lado Sarai 2nd Fl New Delhi 110030 India On 07-Apr-09, at 2:10 PM, Anna A. Slaczka wrote: > Dear Dr Storm, > > For 'almost completely updated' bibliography (the index probably > does not include 2008 and 2009 yet), including articles, you can > check the index of the ABIA-project: > http://www.abia.net/ > > Best regards, > > Anna Slaczka. > > > Dr. Anna A. Slaczka > Kern Institute of Indology > Leiden University > The Netherlands > > > > --- On Tue, 4/7/09, Mary Storm wrote: > >> From: Mary Storm >> Subject: Bibliography ? >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 10:31 AM >> Dear Indologists, >> >> Is anyone familiar with an updated bibliography on Indian >> art history/archaeology? >> >> Thank you so much for your help! >> >> Mary Storm >> >> >> Mary Storm, Ph.D. >> Academic Director >> North India Arts and Culture >> and >> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture >> SIT Study Abroad >> School for International Training >> www.sit.edu >> >> Mobile +91 98106 98003 >> F-301 Lado Sarai >> 2nd Fl >> New Delhi 110030 India > > > From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 7 13:38:27 2009 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 09 15:38:27 +0200 Subject: Summer Sanskrit at Manitoba--update Message-ID: <161227085668.23782.14359269956277253819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues Students interested in the course in May-June 2009 may still register in person, in Winnipeg, up to about 5 days before the course begins. Regards James Hartzell From mnstorm at MAC.COM Tue Apr 7 13:27:26 2009 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 09 18:57:26 +0530 Subject: Bibliography ? In-Reply-To: <68F0EC4F09584A29B894BB5E75F715E4@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <161227085665.23782.2877767714406864425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think I am ACSAA lapsed... I should rejoin. I know ACSAA had a bibliography YEARS ago (the late 70's!), I am looking for something recent... Thanks! Mary Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director North India Arts and Culture and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for International Training www.sit.edu Mobile +91 98106 98003 F-301 Lado Sarai 2nd Fl New Delhi 110030 India On 07-Apr-09, at 6:45 PM, jkirk wrote: > Dear Mary Strong > > If you are not a member of ACSAA, want me to post your query on > their list? I usually get results from posting qeuries there. > > Cheers, Joanna Kirkpatrick > www.artsricksha.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Mary Storm > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:31 AM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Bibliography ? > > Dear Indologists, > > Is anyone familiar with an updated bibliography on Indian art > history/ archaeology? > > Thank you so much for your help! > > Mary Storm > > > Mary Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director > North India Arts and Culture > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > School for International Training > www.sit.edu > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > F-301 Lado Sarai > 2nd Fl > New Delhi 110030 India From mnstorm at MAC.COM Tue Apr 7 15:17:26 2009 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 09 20:47:26 +0530 Subject: Bibliography ? In-Reply-To: <3CF4AA0E7E42490D88536A20C131B9F7@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <161227085677.23782.17498119125234119203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not a problem. sounds brave and rather daring, worthy of her own comic book: "Mary Strong: Girl Archaeologist" Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director North India Arts and Culture and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for International Training www.sit.edu Mobile +91 98106 98003 F-301 Lado Sarai 2nd Fl New Delhi 110030 India On 07-Apr-09, at 8:38 PM, jkirk wrote: > Apology to Mary Storm for getting the surname wrong-- > JK > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > jkirk > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 7:15 AM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Bibliography ? > > Dear Mary Strong > > If you are not a member of ACSAA, want me to post your query on > their list? I usually get results from posting qeuries there. > > Cheers, Joanna Kirkpatrick > www.artsricksha.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Mary Storm > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:31 AM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Bibliography ? > > Dear Indologists, > > Is anyone familiar with an updated bibliography on Indian art > history/ archaeology? > > Thank you so much for your help! > > Mary Storm > > > Mary Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director > North India Arts and Culture > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > School for International Training > www.sit.edu > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > F-301 Lado Sarai > 2nd Fl > New Delhi 110030 India From mnstorm at MAC.COM Tue Apr 7 15:43:23 2009 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 09 21:13:23 +0530 Subject: Bibliography ? In-Reply-To: <161BC3A38CC345818E33B16EF4D019F3@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <161227085679.23782.12093496208208945810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes! That would be splendid. Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director North India Arts and Culture and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for International Training www.sit.edu Mobile +91 98106 98003 F-301 Lado Sarai 2nd Fl New Delhi 110030 India On 07-Apr-09, at 8:41 PM, jkirk wrote: > > What I had in mind wasn't their old bibliography, but suggestions > of recent sources. > Cheers, JK > -------------- > > I think I am ACSAA lapsed... I should rejoin. I know ACSAA had a > bibliography YEARS ago (the late 70's!), I am looking for > something recent... > > Thanks! > Mary > > > Mary Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director > North India Arts and Culture > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > School for International Training > www.sit.edu > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > F-301 Lado Sarai > 2nd Fl > New Delhi 110030 India > > On 07-Apr-09, at 6:45 PM, jkirk wrote: > >> Dear Mary Strong >> >> If you are not a member of ACSAA, want me to post your query on > their >> list? I usually get results from posting qeuries there. >> >> Cheers, Joanna Kirkpatrick >> www.artsricksha.com >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Mary >> Storm >> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:31 AM >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Subject: Bibliography ? >> >> Dear Indologists, >> >> Is anyone familiar with an updated bibliography on Indian art > history/ >> archaeology? >> >> Thank you so much for your help! >> >> Mary Storm >> >> >> Mary Storm, Ph.D. >> Academic Director >> North India Arts and Culture >> and >> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School > for >> International Training www.sit.edu >> >> Mobile +91 98106 98003 >> F-301 Lado Sarai >> 2nd Fl >> New Delhi 110030 India From peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU Wed Apr 8 07:57:42 2009 From: peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU (Peter Friedlander) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 00:57:42 -0700 Subject: mana in heart or head? Message-ID: <161227085686.23782.1764486681006319792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am looking at a, probably 16th century Nath Siddha work, the Gorakh Machindra bodh, and note that in it the seat of the mana is still located in the heart, not the head. ? Nowadays in Hindi mana means both the heart and the mind, but I am not sure when it began its migration up into the head as it is now imagined. In particular was it only under the influence of western thought or are there pre-colonial period texts which speak of the seat of thought as being in the head? ? regards --------------------------- Peter Friedlander 21 Hindhede Dr #04-04 Singapore, 589318 Handphone: (65) 90624357 Enjoy a safer web experience. Upgrade to the new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7. Get it now. From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 8 05:59:23 2009 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 05:59:23 +0000 Subject: Bibliography ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085681.23782.1853646534570870368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, I hope I am not duplicating any information if I point out that a look at the online South and Southeast Asian Art & Archaeology Index (ABIA) might be useful too: . There are also the two derived book publications mentioned on that site, which will be available in Delhi at the IGNCA at least. Arlo GriffithsEFEO / Jakarta ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 21:13:23 +0530 > From: mnstorm at MAC.COM > Subject: Re: Bibliography ? > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Yes! That would be splendid. > > > Mary Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director > North India Arts and Culture > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > School for International Training > www.sit.edu > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > F-301 Lado Sarai > 2nd Fl > New Delhi 110030 India > > On 07-Apr-09, at 8:41 PM, jkirk wrote: > >> >> What I had in mind wasn't their old bibliography, but suggestions >> of recent sources. >> Cheers, JK >> -------------- >> >> I think I am ACSAA lapsed... I should rejoin. I know ACSAA had a >> bibliography YEARS ago (the late 70's!), I am looking for >> something recent... >> >> Thanks! >> Mary >> >> >> Mary Storm, Ph.D. >> Academic Director >> North India Arts and Culture >> and >> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture >> SIT Study Abroad >> School for International Training >> www.sit.edu >> >> Mobile +91 98106 98003 >> F-301 Lado Sarai >> 2nd Fl >> New Delhi 110030 India >> >> On 07-Apr-09, at 6:45 PM, jkirk wrote: >> >>> Dear Mary Strong >>> >>> If you are not a member of ACSAA, want me to post your query on >> their >>> list? I usually get results from posting qeuries there. >>> >>> Cheers, Joanna Kirkpatrick >>> www.artsricksha.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of >> Mary >>> Storm >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:31 AM >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Subject: Bibliography ? >>> >>> Dear Indologists, >>> >>> Is anyone familiar with an updated bibliography on Indian art >> history/ >>> archaeology? >>> >>> Thank you so much for your help! >>> >>> Mary Storm >>> >>> >>> Mary Storm, Ph.D. >>> Academic Director >>> North India Arts and Culture >>> and >>> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School >> for >>> International Training www.sit.edu >>> >>> Mobile +91 98106 98003 >>> F-301 Lado Sarai >>> 2nd Fl >>> New Delhi 110030 India _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 8 06:01:17 2009 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 06:01:17 +0000 Subject: Bibliography ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085683.23782.6131088347405993787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems that angle brackets are lethal when place around a URL. here is it again, without those brackets: www.abia.net. Arlo GriffithsEFEO / Jakarta ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 05:59:23 +0000 > From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: Bibliography ? > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Sorry, I hope I am not duplicating any information if I point out that a look at the online South and Southeast Asian Art & Archaeology Index (ABIA) might be useful too: . There are also the two derived book publications mentioned on that site, which will be available in Delhi at the IGNCA at least. > Arlo GriffithsEFEO / Jakarta > > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 21:13:23 +0530 >> From: mnstorm at MAC.COM >> Subject: Re: Bibliography ? >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> >> Yes! That would be splendid. >> >> >> Mary Storm, Ph.D. >> Academic Director >> North India Arts and Culture >> and >> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture >> SIT Study Abroad >> School for International Training >> www.sit.edu >> >> Mobile +91 98106 98003 >> F-301 Lado Sarai >> 2nd Fl >> New Delhi 110030 India >> >> On 07-Apr-09, at 8:41 PM, jkirk wrote: >> >>> >>> What I had in mind wasn't their old bibliography, but suggestions >>> of recent sources. >>> Cheers, JK >>> -------------- >>> >>> I think I am ACSAA lapsed... I should rejoin. I know ACSAA had a >>> bibliography YEARS ago (the late 70's!), I am looking for >>> something recent... >>> >>> Thanks! >>> Mary >>> >>> >>> Mary Storm, Ph.D. >>> Academic Director >>> North India Arts and Culture >>> and >>> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture >>> SIT Study Abroad >>> School for International Training >>> www.sit.edu >>> >>> Mobile +91 98106 98003 >>> F-301 Lado Sarai >>> 2nd Fl >>> New Delhi 110030 India >>> >>> On 07-Apr-09, at 6:45 PM, jkirk wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Mary Strong >>>> >>>> If you are not a member of ACSAA, want me to post your query on >>> their >>>> list? I usually get results from posting qeuries there. >>>> >>>> Cheers, Joanna Kirkpatrick >>>> www.artsricksha.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of >>> Mary >>>> Storm >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:31 AM >>>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>>> Subject: Bibliography ? >>>> >>>> Dear Indologists, >>>> >>>> Is anyone familiar with an updated bibliography on Indian art >>> history/ >>>> archaeology? >>>> >>>> Thank you so much for your help! >>>> >>>> Mary Storm >>>> >>>> >>>> Mary Storm, Ph.D. >>>> Academic Director >>>> North India Arts and Culture >>>> and >>>> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School >>> for >>>> International Training www.sit.edu >>>> >>>> Mobile +91 98106 98003 >>>> F-301 Lado Sarai >>>> 2nd Fl >>>> New Delhi 110030 India > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _________________________________________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Apr 8 14:19:59 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 09:19:59 -0500 Subject: Name that verse! Message-ID: <161227085706.23782.15871916301282301932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends, It's time to play the perennially pleasant Indological game of "can you identify the source of this verse?" It's one that I learned orally long ago, and, if I recall correctly, it was attributed to one or another Deviitantra. I am not awarding prizes for the the successful entry, but I will be grateful for the reference: dharm.m janaamy aha.m, na ca me prav.rtti.h adharma.m janaamy aha.m, na ca me niv.rtti.h thanks in advance to all contestants, Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Apr 8 14:23:09 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 09:23:09 -0500 Subject: mana in heart or head Message-ID: <161227085708.23782.4262486022316995965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It may be worthwhile here to recall Swami Dayananda Sarasvati's effort to locate the cakras and all the apparatus of the suksmasarira in a corpse that he found floating past him, an event that propelled him to revise his views of received tradition. The episode is discussed in JTF Jordan's biographical study of the Swami. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Apr 8 09:03:06 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 11:03:06 +0200 Subject: mana in heart or head? In-Reply-To: <746542.42594.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085688.23782.13197504915133255498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Peter, The Bhelasamhita is unique in being an ancient Skt text that locates mind, manas, in the head (between the palate and the skull). References in Bhelasamhita ch.8, e.g., ?irast?lvantaragata? sarvendriyapara? mana? 2cd and ?rdhva? prakupit? do??? ?irast?lvantare sthit?? 10ab Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, Peter Friedlander wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > I am looking at a, probably 16th century Nath Siddha work, the Gorakh Machindra bodh, and note that in it the seat of the mana is still located in the heart, not the head. > ?? Nowadays in Hindi mana means both the heart and the mind, but I am not sure when it began its migration up into the head as it is now imagined. In particular was it only under the influence of western thought or are there pre-colonial period texts which speak of the seat of thought as being in the head? > ?? regards > --------------------------- > Peter Friedlander > 21 Hindhede Dr #04-04 > Singapore, 589318 > Handphone: (65) 90624357 > > > Enjoy a safer web experience. Upgrade to the new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7. Get it now. > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Apr 8 11:13:55 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 13:13:55 +0200 Subject: mana in heart or head? In-Reply-To: <678566.95350.qm@web8601.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085697.23782.17888494183599788804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not aware of any tantrik descriptions of dissection at all, and would be very interested to see chapter and verse. My guess is that DC (whose work I value) was either wrong, or thinking of Bhela, or exaggerating. There is a subsidiary, but important point here. "Dissection" refers specifically to the medico-surgical exploration of the body for the goals of medicine or forensic science. It doesn't mean just cutting up a body, or cutting up a body for ritual or other purposes. I made this point in more detail in my paper: Wujastyk,D. (2002). "Interpreter l'image du corps humain dans l'inde pre-moderne," in Bouillier,V., Tarabout,G. (ed.) Images du corps dans le monde Hindou. Paris: CNRS Editions, 71-99. As we all now know, following the perception and art-historical discoveries of the late 20th century, what you see is determined by what you know and what you expect to see. Thus, cutting a body for ritual purposes, one finds 33 parts, because there are 33 participants who each need to be given an part. This is not dissection. Finally, discourse on the brain in ancient Indian texts, including medical texts, is extremely limited. It's function was certainly *not* known, and it was viewed as some sort of fatty tissue (vas?(-cha??)). Nobody has explored this adequately to my knowledge, but it is my belief that such remarks as exist about the brain (masti?ka, mastulu?ga), including the tantric (but non-?yurvedic) concept of semen storage in the brain, are likely to have originated in China, and come to India probably through communications from Buddhist monks. (However, these ideas also occur in the Timaeus, so that has to be taken into consideration.) The idea of brain-semen is present in nascent but clear form in the medical manuscripts from tomb 3 of the Mawangdui burials of 168 BC (Don Harper, Early Chinese Medical Literature, 1998), and can be traced in later Chinese literature from that time. This is many centuries earlier than the occurrence of the ideas in India. Best, DW -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > It is very difficult to remember the exact details but?at least this > much can be said with certainty that the late Debiprasad > Chattopadhyay?had pointed out?in?the Lokayata Darshan (Beng.Calcutta > 1956) or in its?English version Lokayata:A Study in Indian materialism > (Calcutta,1959), perhaps?in both,?that?Tantrikas who desected human > bodies held that the location the mind?was in the skull. In fact their > discovery was that the brain is responsible for thought. I read the > books in the sixties. DB ?? > --- On Wed, 8/4/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > From: Dominik Wujastyk > Subject: Re: mana in heart or head? > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Wednesday, 8 April, 2009, 2:33 PM > > > Hi, Peter, > > The Bhelasamhita is unique in being an ancient Skt text that locates mind, > manas, in the head (between the palate and the skull).? References in > Bhelasamhita ch.8, e.g., > > ?irast?lvantaragata? sarvendriyapara? mana? 2cd > > and > > ?rdhva? prakupit? do??? ?irast?lvantare sthit?? 10ab > > Best, > Dominik > > From jkirk at SPRO.NET Wed Apr 8 20:41:45 2009 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 14:41:45 -0600 Subject: mana in heart or head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085721.23782.17392755489092006998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please excuse if I got this wrong, but I looked up the biography cited as by one 'Jordans', and in various links come across the name as spelled Jordens. On amazon there are a few used copies of one edition of it at a reasonable price. Otherwise, $150. Joanna Kirkpatrick ============================ This episode is also discussed in my article, that I cited in my last email. It's an important and interesting "moment" in the history of body-understanding in India. However, it also needs to be borne in mind that, as Jordans showed in his second study on the work, Dayananda's autobiography is not what it purports to be, and is not an autobiography. DW -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > It may be worthwhile here to > recall Swami Dayananda Sarasvati's > effort to locate the cakras and all > the apparatus of the suksmasarira > in a corpse that he found floating > past him, an event that propelled him > to revise his views of received tradition. > > The episode is discussed in JTF Jordan's biographical study of the > Swami. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of > Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > From sellmers at GMX.DE Wed Apr 8 13:09:07 2009 From: sellmers at GMX.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 15:09:07 +0200 Subject: Fwd: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085702.23782.18415915141167593550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, first of all I would like to thank all of you very much for your overwhelming reaction to my litte query! It seems the oldest serious candidate that came up was the "/YavanajAtaka/ of Sphujidhvaja. It was written in the third century CE. It is purportedly a versified version of a prose translation of a Greek text on astrology composed in Hellenistic Egypt. According to David Pingree, the prose translation was carried out by Yavanezvara in the second century CE during the reign of the Saka ruler Rudradaman I of Ujjain." (Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann) I have prepared a small rtf document in which I have copied bibliographical hints that appeared in the discussion, arranged according to the source languages. (Because I am mainly interested in earlier periods I have included mainly pre-19th century translations, but a long and very interesting list of later material can be found in Klaus Karttunen's post.) I had neither time nor opportunity to check the bibliographical data, still the list may be useful as a starting point for further research. Unfortunately, for technical reasons I cannot simply attach it, so if you would like to receive it, please contact me off list. Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Apr 8 11:43:46 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 17:13:46 +0530 Subject: mana in heart or head? Message-ID: <161227085692.23782.10972977040362289844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is very difficult to remember the exact details but?at least this much can be said with certainty that the late Debiprasad Chattopadhyay?had pointed out?in?the Lokayata Darshan (Beng.Calcutta 1956) or in its?English version Lokayata:A Study in Indian materialism? (Calcutta,1959), perhaps?in both,?that?Tantrikas who desected human bodies held that the location the mind?was in the skull. In fact their discovery was that the brain is responsible for thought. I read the books in the sixties. DB? --- On Wed, 8/4/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: Re: mana in heart or head? To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 8 April, 2009, 2:33 PM Hi, Peter, The Bhelasamhita is unique in being an ancient Skt text that locates mind, manas, in the head (between the palate and the skull).? References in Bhelasamhita ch.8, e.g., ?irast?lvantaragata? sarvendriyapara? mana? 2cd and ?rdhva? prakupit? do??? ?irast?lvantare sthit?? 10ab Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, Peter Friedlander wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > I am looking at a, probably 16th century Nath Siddha work, the Gorakh Machindra bodh, and note that in it the seat of the mana is still located in the heart, not the head. > ?? Nowadays in Hindi mana means both the heart and the mind, but I am not sure when it began its migration up into the head as it is now imagined. In particular was it only under the influence of western thought or are there pre-colonial period texts which speak of the seat of thought as being in the head? > ?? regards > --------------------------- > Peter Friedlander > 21 Hindhede Dr #04-04 > Singapore, 589318 > Handphone: (65) 90624357 > > >? ? ? Enjoy a safer web experience. Upgrade to the new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7. Get it now. > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Apr 8 11:51:49 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 17:21:49 +0530 Subject: RESOURCE> IndUni Fonts Upgraded (JD Smith) Message-ID: <161227085694.23782.1283342353004943457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ? It is very difficult to remember the exact details but?at least this much can be said with certainty that the late Debiprasad Chattopadhyay?had pointed out?in?the Lokayata Darshan (Beng.Calcutta 1956) or in its?English version Lokayata:A Study in Indian materialism? (Calcutta,1959), perhaps?in both,?that?Tantrikas who dissected human bodies held that the location the mind?was in the skull. In fact their discovery was that the brain is responsible for thought. I read the books in the sixties. The unchecked version may kindly be ignored. DB? --- On Wed, 8/4/09, Richard MAHONEY wrote: From: Richard MAHONEY Subject: RESOURCE> IndUni Fonts Upgraded (JD Smith) To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 8 April, 2009, 4:09 PM Dear Colleagues, John has just upgraded his IndUni fonts. All users are encouraged to replace previous versions. Best regards, Richard Mahoney --------------------------------------------------------------------- April 7, 2009: I have created upgraded versions of my "IndUni" OpenType fonts. These are Unicode-compliant fonts that contain a comprehensive set of "Indological" characters, as well as all the European characters that scholars are likely to need. They are available as freeware, and include high-quality lookalikes for Times, Palatino, New Century Schoolbook, Helvetica and Courier. They are based on the freeware fonts so generously contributed by URW++ of Germany. The upgraded fonts now contain all the forms required for Avestan, and a basic set of Greek letters. In addition they contain all the accented characters specified by MES-1, the smallest of the recognised Multilingual European Subsets of Unicode; numerous other accented forms that linguists tend to require; all the accented characters needed for Pinyin; and a set of Cyrillic characters. This is, of course, in addition to all the characters known to be used in representing Indian languages in Roman script. The IndUni-T fonts (the Times-like ones) also contain versions of j-underdot, used for some Dardic languages. There was an unfortunate bug in the previous release, resulting in the omission of non-breaking space. This has been fixed. The fonts accept input in both "composed" and "decomposed" forms of Unicode -- e.g. the correct form for "a macron" will be used whether the document contains the one character U+0101 ("a macron") or the two characters U+0061 ("a") + U+0304 ("macron"). Since there seems to be something of a shift in usage under way here, this is a major advantage. The fonts can be downloaded from http://bombay.indology.info/. John Smith John Smith jds10 at cam.ac.uk http://bombay.indology.info -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene? ? ? | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road? ? ? ? | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ? ? ? | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one roof. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From csaba_dezso at YAHOO.CO.UK Wed Apr 8 15:42:29 2009 From: csaba_dezso at YAHOO.CO.UK (Csaba Dezso) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 17:42:29 +0200 Subject: Name that verse! In-Reply-To: <20090408091959.BVF56125@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085712.23782.4680237106952770586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Kapstein, I have found this half-verse in two works so far: Vidy?ra?ya, Pa?cada?? j?n?mi dharma? na ca me prav?tti? j?n?my adharma? na ca me niv?tti? / ken?pi devena h?di sthitena yath? niyukto 'smi tath? karomi // 6.176// Gop?labha??a: Haribhaktivil?sa j?n?mi dharma? na ca me prav?ttir j?n?my adharma? na ca me niv?tti? | tvay? h???ke?a h?di sthitena yath? niyukto 'smi tath? karomi // Hbhv_3.94 // Best wishes, Csaba Dezso Dr. Csaba Dezso Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit Department of Indo-European Studies ELTE University Muzeum krt. 6-8/A, Budapest, H-1088 Hungary +36 1 4116500, ext. 5368 On 8 Apr 2009, at 16:19, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > Dear friends, > > It's time to play the perennially pleasant > Indological game of "can you identify the > source of this verse?" It's one that > I learned orally long ago, and, if I recall > correctly, it was attributed to one or another > Deviitantra. I am not awarding prizes for the > the successful entry, but I will be grateful > for the reference: > > dharm.m janaamy aha.m, na ca me prav.rtti.h > adharma.m janaamy aha.m, na ca me niv.rtti.h > > thanks in advance to all contestants, > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From Harunaga.Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Wed Apr 8 15:47:15 2009 From: Harunaga.Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 17:47:15 +0200 Subject: Name that verse! In-Reply-To: <20090408091959.BVF56125@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085714.23782.15532602416795096815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > dharm.m janaamy aha.m, na ca me prav.rtti.h > adharma.m janaamy aha.m, na ca me niv.rtti.h That would be metrically hard to account for. Probably it was janaami dharma.m na ca me prav.rtti.h jaanaamy adharma.m na ca me niv.rtti.h/ which is usually followed by, as the second half of the verse, something like: tvayaa h.r.siike"sa h.rdi sthitena yathaa niyukto 'smi tathaa karomi// That would be the Vai.s.nava version, which we find in e.g. the Haribhaktivilaasa (with attribution, it seems to the Vi.s.nudharmottarapuraa.na, though I don't think the verse has been found there). The third paada will however be found in various forms, according to religious context. A "Saiva-"Saakta version for it (found in the "Saaktaanandatara"ngi.nii): tvayaa mahaadevi h.rdisthayaaha.m And we find sometimes, e.g. in Vidyaara.nya's Pa~ncada"sii: kenaapi devena h.rdi sthitena It is probably going to be difficult to establish in what work this verse first appeared. But perhaps someone can provide that information, and be your 'winning contestant'. Harunaga Isaacson -- Prof. Dr. Harunaga Isaacson Universit?t Hamburg Asien-Afrika-Institut Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Edmund-Siemers-Allee 1 (Hauptgeb?ude) D-20146 Hamburg Germany tel. +49 (0)40 42838-3382 Alternative email: harunagaisaacson at gmail.com From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Apr 8 21:51:34 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 17:51:34 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085723.23782.6165998615631838992.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Don't some people think a chapter of Vitruvius was translated and incorporated into one of the Vastusastra works? If so, it would be particularly interesting because it would be from Latin, or at least from Latin through Greek. I once had a Sanskrit translation of Paul Deussen's Die Elemente der Metaphysik, Eng. trans. Elements of Metaphysics, which I gave to U. Chicago Library, but it seems to have slipped into some cataloging black hole there, since it's not the the Regenstein's online catalog. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Apr 8 21:54:14 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 17:54:14 -0400 Subject: mana in heart or head? Message-ID: <161227085725.23782.12868154234519817286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik said: "Finally, discourse on the brain in ancient Indian texts, including medical texts, is extremely limited. It's function was certainly *not* known, and it was viewed as some sort of fatty tissue (vas?(-cha??))." How do they deal with the fact that blows to the head can affect mental functionings, or even permanently damage them? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Apr 8 13:00:52 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 18:30:52 +0530 Subject: mana in heart or head? Message-ID: <161227085699.23782.743991720365441628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- On Wed, 8/4/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: Re: mana in heart or head? To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 8 April, 2009, 4:43 PM I am not aware of any tantrik descriptions of dissection at all, and would be very interested to see chapter and verse.? My guess is that DC (whose work I value) was either wrong, or thinking of Bhela, or exaggerating. There is a subsidiary, but important point here.? "Dissection" refers specifically to the medico-surgical exploration of the body for the goals of medicine or forensic science.? It doesn't mean just cutting up a body, or cutting up a body for ritual or other purposes.? I made this point in more detail in my paper: Wujastyk,D. (2002). "Interpreter l'image du corps humain dans l'inde pre-moderne," in Bouillier,V., Tarabout,G. (ed.) Images du corps dans le monde Hindou. Paris: CNRS Editions, 71-99. As we all now know, following the perception and art-historical discoveries of the late 20th century, what you see is determined by what you know and what you expect to see.? Thus, cutting a body for ritual purposes, one finds 33 parts, because there are 33 participants who each need to be given an part.? This is not dissection. Finally, discourse on the brain in ancient Indian texts, including medical texts, is extremely limited.? It's function was certainly *not* known, and it was viewed as some sort of fatty tissue (vas?(-cha??)). Nobody has explored this adequately to my knowledge, but it is my belief that such remarks as exist about the brain (masti?ka, mastulu?ga), including the tantric (but non-?yurvedic) concept of semen storage in the brain, are likely to have originated in China, and come to India probably through communications from Buddhist monks.? (However, these ideas also occur in the Timaeus, so that has to be taken into consideration.)? The idea of brain-semen is present in nascent but clear form in the medical manuscripts from tomb 3 of the Mawangdui burials of 168 BC (Don Harper, Early Chinese Medical Literature, 1998), and can be traced in later Chinese literature from that time.? This is many centuries earlier than the occurrence of the ideas in India. Best, DW -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > It is very difficult to remember the exact details but?at least this much can be said with certainty that the late Debiprasad Chattopadhyay?had pointed out?in?the Lokayata Darshan (Beng.Calcutta 1956) or in its?English version Lokayata:A Study in Indian materialism (Calcutta,1959), perhaps?in both,?that?Tantrikas who desected human bodies held that the location the mind?was in the skull. In fact their discovery was that the brain is responsible for thought. I read the books in the sixties. DB ?? > --- On Wed, 8/4/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > From: Dominik Wujastyk > Subject: Re: mana in heart or head? > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Wednesday, 8 April, 2009, 2:33 PM > > > Hi, Peter, > > The Bhelasamhita is unique in being an ancient Skt text that locates mind, > manas, in the head (between the palate and the skull).? References in > Bhelasamhita ch.8, e.g., > > ?irast?lvantaragata? sarvendriyapara? mana? 2cd > > and > > ?rdhva? prakupit? do??? ?irast?lvantare sthit?? 10ab > > Best, > Dominik > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From Harunaga.Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Wed Apr 8 17:29:23 2009 From: Harunaga.Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 19:29:23 +0200 Subject: Name that verse! In-Reply-To: <1239205635.49dcc703d4e6c@webmail.rrz.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <161227085716.23782.13316898308479118099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apologies for having duplicated in part Csaba Dezso's reply, which I hadn't yet seen. In my message > janaami dharma.m na ca me prav.rtti.h was of course a typo for jaanaami etc. Harunaga Isaacson -- Prof. Dr. Harunaga Isaacson Universit?t Hamburg Asien-Afrika-Institut Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Edmund-Siemers-Allee 1 (Hauptgeb?ude) D-20146 Hamburg Germany tel. +49 (0)40 42838-3382 Alternative email: harunagaisaacson at gmail.com From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Apr 8 14:15:31 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 19:45:31 +0530 Subject: mana in heart or head Message-ID: <161227085704.23782.15902772465519549896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My previous mail reached blank! The Reply button did not work too. Perhaps the present one sent not as a reply may reach. <"Dissection" refers specifically to the medico-surgical exploration of the body for the goals of medicine or forensic science.? It doesn't mean just cutting up a body, or cutting up a body for ritual or other purposes.> I need not tell that there is a usage -- 'Dissect: 1.methodically cut up a body or plant in order to study its internal parts 2. analyse in minute detail' COED 11th ed. 2006. This usage will not die in spite of attempts to limit the scope of employing the word. See for example, Walt Disney's, True Life Adventures where he occasionally speaks of one insect (particularly a spider) dissecting the body of another or?injecting some anaesthetic into it?for eating it. (The word 'injection' too has a medical sense and a general one.) The purpose may be different and the discovery incidental or by chance. The result might be the same. Many discoveries came as part of?search made for a different purpose. The importance of the result is not diminished. As to what made the tantrikas make enquiry, the tantric idea of sahasraara (ushniishkamala in Mantranaya) as located in the ceiling of the skull, an old idea, may be relevant. and The first guess?may be or may not be correct. Better consult DPC. Unfortunately I am not in a position to do so at present. 'Ancient Indian texts' is a big and?vague term denoting anything composed?during three thousand years. Sweeping subjective remarks on their character do not help. Mahaaciina has indeed been referred to in some of the Tantras, particularly in the encyclopaedic ones. As far as I know architectural influence has been guessed too.? Influence on anatomical ideas is unlikely. ? Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Apr 8 14:25:07 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 19:55:07 +0530 Subject: mana in heart or head? Message-ID: <161227085710.23782.3698563328813227153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My previous mail reached blank! The Reply button did not work too. Perhaps the present one sent not as a reply may reach. <"Dissection" refers specifically to the medico-surgical exploration of the body for the goals of medicine or forensic science.? It doesn't mean just cutting up a body, or cutting up a body for ritual or other purposes.> I need not tell that there is a usage -- 'Dissect: 1.methodically cut up a body or plant in order to study its internal parts 2. analyse in minute detail' COED 11th ed. 2006. This usage will not die in spite of attempts to limit the scope of employing the word. See for example, Walt Disney's, True Life Adventures where he occasionally speaks of one insect (particularly a spider) dissecting the body of another or?injecting some anaesthetic into it?for eating it. (The word 'injection' too has a medical sense and a general one.) The purpose may be different and the discovery incidental or by chance. The result might be the same. Many discoveries came as part of?search made for a different purpose. The importance of the result is not diminished. As to what made the tantrikas make enquiry, the tantric idea of sahasraara (ushniishkamala in Mantranaya) as located in the ceiling of the skull, an old idea, may be relevant. and The first guess?may be or may not be correct. Better consult DPC. Unfortunately I am not in a position to do so at present. 'Ancient Indian texts' is a big and?vague term denoting anything composed?during three thousand years. Sweeping subjective remarks on their character do not help. Mahaaciina has indeed been referred to in some of the Tantras, particularly in the encyclopaedic ones. As far as I know architectural influence has been guessed too.?Influence on anatomical ideas is unlikely --- On Wed, 8/4/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: Re: mana in heart or head? To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 8 April, 2009, 4:43 PM I am not aware of any tantrik descriptions of dissection at all, and would be very interested to see chapter and verse.? My guess is that DC (whose work I value) was either wrong, or thinking of Bhela, or exaggerating. There is a subsidiary, but important point here.? "Dissection" refers specifically to the medico-surgical exploration of the body for the goals of medicine or forensic science.? It doesn't mean just cutting up a body, or cutting up a body for ritual or other purposes.? I made this point in more detail in my paper: Wujastyk,D. (2002). "Interpreter l'image du corps humain dans l'inde pre-moderne," in Bouillier,V., Tarabout,G. (ed.) Images du corps dans le monde Hindou. Paris: CNRS Editions, 71-99. As we all now know, following the perception and art-historical discoveries of the late 20th century, what you see is determined by what you know and what you expect to see.? Thus, cutting a body for ritual purposes, one finds 33 parts, because there are 33 participants who each need to be given an part.? This is not dissection. Finally, discourse on the brain in ancient Indian texts, including medical texts, is extremely limited.? It's function was certainly *not* known, and it was viewed as some sort of fatty tissue (vas?(-cha??)). Nobody has explored this adequately to my knowledge, but it is my belief that such remarks as exist about the brain (masti?ka, mastulu?ga), including the tantric (but non-?yurvedic) concept of semen storage in the brain, are likely to have originated in China, and come to India probably through communications from Buddhist monks.? (However, these ideas also occur in the Timaeus, so that has to be taken into consideration.)? The idea of brain-semen is present in nascent but clear form in the medical manuscripts from tomb 3 of the Mawangdui burials of 168 BC (Don Harper, Early Chinese Medical Literature, 1998), and can be traced in later Chinese literature from that time.? This is many centuries earlier than the occurrence of the ideas in India. Best, DW -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > It is very difficult to remember the exact details but?at least this much can be said with certainty that the late Debiprasad Chattopadhyay?had pointed out?in?the Lokayata Darshan (Beng.Calcutta 1956) or in its?English version Lokayata:A Study in Indian materialism (Calcutta,1959), perhaps?in both,?that?Tantrikas who desected human bodies held that the location the mind?was in the skull. In fact their discovery was that the brain is responsible for thought. I read the books in the sixties. DB ?? > --- On Wed, 8/4/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > From: Dominik Wujastyk > Subject: Re: mana in heart or head? > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Wednesday, 8 April, 2009, 2:33 PM > > > Hi, Peter, > > The Bhelasamhita is unique in being an ancient Skt text that locates mind, > manas, in the head (between the palate and the skull).? References in > Bhelasamhita ch.8, e.g., > > ?irast?lvantaragata? sarvendriyapara? mana? 2cd > > and > > ?rdhva? prakupit? do??? ?irast?lvantare sthit?? 10ab > > Best, > Dominik > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Apr 8 18:31:57 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 20:31:57 +0200 Subject: mana in heart or head In-Reply-To: <20090408092309.BVF56724@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085719.23782.13665539251941813634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This episode is also discussed in my article, that I cited in my last email. It's an important and interesting "moment" in the history of body-understanding in India. However, it also needs to be borne in mind that, as Jordans showed in his second study on the work, Dayananda's autobiography is not what it purports to be, and is not an autobiography. DW -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > It may be worthwhile here to > recall Swami Dayananda Sarasvati's > effort to locate the cakras and all > the apparatus of the suksmasarira > in a corpse that he found floating > past him, an event that propelled him > to revise his views of received tradition. > > The episode is discussed in JTF Jordan's > biographical study of the Swami. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Wed Apr 8 10:39:20 2009 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 09 22:39:20 +1200 Subject: RESOURCE> IndUni Fonts Upgraded (JD Smith) Message-ID: <161227085690.23782.5753946064219954436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, John has just upgraded his IndUni fonts. All users are encouraged to replace previous versions. Best regards, Richard Mahoney --------------------------------------------------------------------- April 7, 2009: I have created upgraded versions of my "IndUni" OpenType fonts. These are Unicode-compliant fonts that contain a comprehensive set of "Indological" characters, as well as all the European characters that scholars are likely to need. They are available as freeware, and include high-quality lookalikes for Times, Palatino, New Century Schoolbook, Helvetica and Courier. They are based on the freeware fonts so generously contributed by URW++ of Germany. The upgraded fonts now contain all the forms required for Avestan, and a basic set of Greek letters. In addition they contain all the accented characters specified by MES-1, the smallest of the recognised Multilingual European Subsets of Unicode; numerous other accented forms that linguists tend to require; all the accented characters needed for Pinyin; and a set of Cyrillic characters. This is, of course, in addition to all the characters known to be used in representing Indian languages in Roman script. The IndUni-T fonts (the Times-like ones) also contain versions of j-underdot, used for some Dardic languages. There was an unfortunate bug in the previous release, resulting in the omission of non-breaking space. This has been fixed. The fonts accept input in both "composed" and "decomposed" forms of Unicode -- e.g. the correct form for "a macron" will be used whether the document contains the one character U+0101 ("a macron") or the two characters U+0061 ("a") + U+0304 ("macron"). Since there seems to be something of a shift in usage under way here, this is a major advantage. The fonts can be downloaded from http://bombay.indology.info/. John Smith John Smith jds10 at cam.ac.uk http://bombay.indology.info -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Apr 9 10:41:43 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 06:41:43 -0400 Subject: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan Message-ID: <161227085742.23782.13447480111783904711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleague, The "suutras" are clearly not part of the original A.s.taadhyaayii text as known to Kaatyaayana and Patanjali. *4.1.166: v.rddhasya ca puujaayaam is vaarttika 3 to 4.1.163 (jiivati tu va.m'sye yuvaa. *4.1.167: yuuna's ca kutsaayaam is included as part of the suutra text of the Kaa'sikaav.rtti but is identified as not part of the original text by Kaiya.ta in his Pradiipam (Rohtak ed. III.617) on 4.1.162 (apatyam pautraprabh.rti gotram) vt. 2 (jiivadva.m'sya.m ca kutsitam), where Kaiya.ta cites yuuna's ca kutsaayaam and remarks that this statement shows the suutra in question does not stem from the sage: yuuna's ca kutsaayaam iti suutram anaar.sam iti vacanam. In his Bhaa.sya on 4.1.162 vt. 2 (Kielhorn-Abhyankar ed. II.265.5-8), Patanjali remarks that someone whose father is still alive but is independent is addressed using a gotra term; such an offspring bears the technical name 'gotra' out of scorn, as when one addresses one who should be called gaargyaaya.na (using a yuvan term) is addressed as gargya. Conversely, an elder who rspresents his line and is properly referred to using a gotra term like gaargya may affectionately be addressed using a yuvan term like gaargyaaya.na, now used as an honorific, since youth is something desirable (Bh. on 4.1.163 vt. 3, II.265.23-25). There is a very old but still informative pamphlet by V. S. Agrawal, 'Gotras in Paa.nini'(Varanasi, 1963), but I don't know of a detailed study of the usage in the domains you mention. I hope this helps. George Cardona -----Original Message----- >From: Jean-Luc Chevillard >Sent: Apr 9, 2009 4:47 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan > >Dear list members, > >I would like to have information regarding the actual use of /gotra/ (or >/v?ddha/ ?) and /yuvan/ for referring to individuals or for adressing them. > >I would like to have a clear understanding of the purport of the >following two s?tra-s (found among the s?tra-s of P??ini but said to be >in fact v?rttika-s): > >v?ddhasya ca p?j?y?m || PS_4,1.166 || {{Vasu: "The Gotra is sometimes >optionally regarded as Yuvan, when respectful reference to him is >intended"}} {{Boehtlingk: "Auch statt des Geschlechtsnamens kann man das >zweite Patronymicum brauchen, wenn man Jemand ehren will."}} {{Renou: >"(Le nom technique de /yuvan/) peut ?tre le substitut (du patronymique >restreint) dit /v?ddha/ quand il y a intention d'honorer."}} > >y?na? ca kuts?y?m || PS_4,1.167 || {{Vasu: "The Yuvan is optionally >spoken of as Gotra, when contemptuous reference to him is intended"}} >{{Boehtlingk: "Auch den Juvan kann man mit dem Geschlechtsnamen >bezeichnen, wenn man ihn schm?hen will"}} {{Renou: "(Le nom technique de >/v?ddha/) peut ?tre le substitut du nom de /yuvan/ quand il y a >intention de critiquer"}} > >Has anybody written (in English, or French, or German, ...) on the >actual use as seen in literature, in inscriptions, etc.? > >I would be grateful for any bibliographical pointer or for comments. > >-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Apr 9 10:42:54 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 06:42:54 -0400 Subject: mana in heart or head? Message-ID: <161227085744.23782.12384553370105799171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- >From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE >Sent: Apr 9, 2009 5:49 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Re: mana in heart or head? > >I think one has to clarify what is meant by manas. The translation as >"mind" is convenient, but does not convey the sense of "mind" in >English. According to the major philosophical schools >(Nyaya,Vaisesika,Mimamsa) the mind is as small as an atom and does not >have a fixed location, but moves very quickly throughout the body: One >can only feel or cognize something because the "mind" is there and is >in contact with the soul. Although the soul is all-pervasive, its >cognitions are limited to the place where the "mind" is located. There >is only one place in the body, a special area in the heart called >puriitat (mentioned also in the Brhadaranyakopanishad), which is >exception to the rule. If the mind retreats to the puriitat, the soul >stops cognizing (as in sleep without dreams). >Best wishes >EF > > >Quoting Allen W Thrasher : > >> Dominik said: >> >> "Finally, discourse on the brain in ancient Indian texts, including >> medical texts, is extremely limited. It's function was certainly >> *not* known, and it was viewed as some sort of fatty tissue >> (vas?(-cha??))." >> >> How do they deal with the fact that blows to the head can affect >> mental functionings, or even permanently damage them? >> >> Allen >> >> >> >> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >> Senior Reference Librarian >> Team Coordinator >> South Asia Team, Asian Division >> Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 >> 101 Independence Ave., S.E. >> Washington, DC 20540-4810 >> tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov >> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the >> Library of Congress. > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Apr 9 10:48:53 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 06:48:53 -0400 Subject: mana in heart or head? Message-ID: <161227085746.23782.6341626398889150396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Confusion seems to have occurred in transmission, since I did not reply to Eli Franco's message. GC -----Original Message----- >From: George Cardona >Sent: Apr 9, 2009 6:42 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Re: mana in heart or head? > >-----Original Message----- >>From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE >>Sent: Apr 9, 2009 5:49 AM >>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>Subject: Re: mana in heart or head? >> >>I think one has to clarify what is meant by manas. The translation as >>"mind" is convenient, but does not convey the sense of "mind" in >>English. According to the major philosophical schools >>(Nyaya,Vaisesika,Mimamsa) the mind is as small as an atom and does not >>have a fixed location, but moves very quickly throughout the body: One >>can only feel or cognize something because the "mind" is there and is >>in contact with the soul. Although the soul is all-pervasive, its >>cognitions are limited to the place where the "mind" is located. There >>is only one place in the body, a special area in the heart called >>puriitat (mentioned also in the Brhadaranyakopanishad), which is >>exception to the rule. If the mind retreats to the puriitat, the soul >>stops cognizing (as in sleep without dreams). >>Best wishes >>EF >> >> >>Quoting Allen W Thrasher : >> >>> Dominik said: >>> >>> "Finally, discourse on the brain in ancient Indian texts, including >>> medical texts, is extremely limited. It's function was certainly >>> *not* known, and it was viewed as some sort of fatty tissue >>> (vas?(-cha??))." >>> >>> How do they deal with the fact that blows to the head can affect >>> mental functionings, or even permanently damage them? >>> >>> Allen >>> >>> >>> >>> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >>> Senior Reference Librarian >>> Team Coordinator >>> South Asia Team, Asian Division >>> Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 >>> 101 Independence Ave., S.E. >>> Washington, DC 20540-4810 >>> tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov >>> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the >>> Library of Congress. >> >> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------- >>This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Apr 9 11:00:30 2009 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 07:00:30 -0400 Subject: mana in heart or head? Message-ID: <161227085748.23782.11903111914472558084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Allen W Thrasher wrote: >> How do they deal with the fact that blows to the head can affect mental >> functionings, or even permanently damage them? [Dominik replied] >Good question :-) I haven't seen anything about this in the chapters on unm?da. If the head/brain can be considered a vital organ (Dominik suggested not), then Asanga has this covered, or at least implied in his definition of unm?da in the Mano-bh?mi of the Yog?c?rabh?mi: katham unm?dyati | p?rva-karm?k?epatay? dh?tu-vaisamyataya uttr?sa-bhayatay? marm?bhigh?ta-tay? bh?ta-sam?ve?atay? || Or does marm?bhigh?ta have a clearly defined denotation in the medical literature? In any case, I find his definition intriguing. Dan Lusthaus From mdelhey at YAHOO.COM Thu Apr 9 14:28:56 2009 From: mdelhey at YAHOO.COM (Martin Delhey) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 07:28:56 -0700 Subject: E-mail query Message-ID: <161227085752.23782.18184190478921853632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, does anyone out there has the e-mail address of Susan Amy Sinberg? She is the author of a Ph.D. thesis on the Taaraamuulakalpa (Columbia University 1995), a text which is important for my own research, which seems to be more or less unavailable in Germany. Please reply off-list. Best wishes, Martin Delhey Centre for Tantric Studies University of Hamburg mdelhey at yahoo.com From ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG Thu Apr 9 04:09:39 2009 From: ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG (Ganesan) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 09:39:39 +0530 Subject: Name that verse! Message-ID: <161227085728.23782.836177574537430023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, I have heard that this verse occurs in the HanumannATaka also known as MahAnATaka. Anyway it has to be verified. The correct reading of the first half is: jaanaami dharma.m na ca me prav.rtti.h . jaanaamyadharma.m na ca me niv.rtti.h . Thanks Ganesan Dr.T.Ganesan Charg? de Recherches French Institute 11, St. Louis Street PONDICHERRY-605001 INDIA Tel: +91 - 413 - 233 4168 ext. 123 E mail: ganesan at ifpindia.org Web: www.ifpindia.org ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 7:49 PM Subject: Name that verse! Dear friends, It's time to play the perennially pleasant Indological game of "can you identify the source of this verse?" It's one that I learned orally long ago, and, if I recall correctly, it was attributed to one or another Deviitantra. I am not awarding prizes for the the successful entry, but I will be grateful for the reference: dharm.m janaamy aha.m, na ca me prav.rtti.h adharma.m janaamy aha.m, na ca me niv.rtti.h thanks in advance to all contestants, Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Apr 9 14:31:22 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 10:31:22 -0400 Subject: majority in Hindu law Message-ID: <161227085754.23782.12298011477833159170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Cardona's citation of Patanjali on addressing a son who is independent of his father raises a question I was already meaning to raise here. "Patanjali remarks that someone whose father is still alive but is independent is addressed using a gotra term; such an offspring bears the technical name 'gotra' out of scorn, as when one addresses one who should be called gaargyaaya.na (using a yuvan term) is addressed as gargya." I was meaning to get Kane from the stacks and check him first, but chance has brought it up. Is there such a thing as an age of majority in Hindu law, an age at which a son may make decisions independent of his father? I can't think of any such thing in law or narratives. In the stories the sons who form romantic marriages usually have fathers already dead, unless they're sent off to a svayamvara like Rama. May a son with a living father decide his own residence or occupation, or contract an otherwise suitable marriage if he is a long distance from his father? Of course, some modern regional property regimes allow a son to request (or demand?) his share of the family property from a living father. Gunther-Dietz Sontheimer's observation in "The joint Hindu family" that Hindu law has two principles in tension - the subordination of the son to the father and the identity of the son to the father - may be pertinent here. The subjection of adult sons doesn't seem to have worked out to be as drastic as in Roman law. I read an article on Punjab land law once that said that when a decision about land is to be made, all potential male shareholders are consulted, not only adults and youths but boys of seven and up, although the latter's opinion won't be considered a quasi-vote like that of the older males. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Thu Apr 9 08:47:10 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 10:47:10 +0200 Subject: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan Message-ID: <161227085732.23782.1189864585383585687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I would like to have information regarding the actual use of /gotra/ (or /v?ddha/ ?) and /yuvan/ for referring to individuals or for adressing them. I would like to have a clear understanding of the purport of the following two s?tra-s (found among the s?tra-s of P??ini but said to be in fact v?rttika-s): v?ddhasya ca p?j?y?m || PS_4,1.166 || {{Vasu: "The Gotra is sometimes optionally regarded as Yuvan, when respectful reference to him is intended"}} {{Boehtlingk: "Auch statt des Geschlechtsnamens kann man das zweite Patronymicum brauchen, wenn man Jemand ehren will."}} {{Renou: "(Le nom technique de /yuvan/) peut ?tre le substitut (du patronymique restreint) dit /v?ddha/ quand il y a intention d'honorer."}} y?na? ca kuts?y?m || PS_4,1.167 || {{Vasu: "The Yuvan is optionally spoken of as Gotra, when contemptuous reference to him is intended"}} {{Boehtlingk: "Auch den Juvan kann man mit dem Geschlechtsnamen bezeichnen, wenn man ihn schm?hen will"}} {{Renou: "(Le nom technique de /v?ddha/) peut ?tre le substitut du nom de /yuvan/ quand il y a intention de critiquer"}} Has anybody written (in English, or French, or German, ...) on the actual use as seen in literature, in inscriptions, etc.? I would be grateful for any bibliographical pointer or for comments. -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) From whitakjl at WFU.EDU Thu Apr 9 15:11:32 2009 From: whitakjl at WFU.EDU (Jarrod L. Whitaker) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 11:11:32 -0400 Subject: mana in heart or head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085759.23782.17794860556710311165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Rgveda predominantly correlates manas with the heart (haardi/hrd; hrdaya), though this is not to say it resides there. What is more, at RV.2.12.1, we read of Indra: "The god, who when just born with the foremost intellect (manasvaan), surrounded the gods due to (his) resolve (kratu)"; and kratu ("resolve, purpose, determination") is explicitly "in the head" (ziir.sa.ni at RV.2.16.2d). I am sure somebody must have written on this in the Vedic context...(Gonda, Bodewitz?) Jarrod L. Whitaker, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, South Asian Religions Wake Forest University Department of Religion P.O. Box 7212 Winston-Salem, NC 27109 whitakjl at wfu.edu p 336.758.4162 f 336.758.4462 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Apr 9 10:12:29 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 11:12:29 +0100 Subject: mana in heart or head? In-Reply-To: <20090409114936.47995th2m0taljn4@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085736.23782.12700684094773484150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, you're right, Eli, of course. Really, one is dealing with a quite different model of the inner man. By the by, the common phrase "body, mind, and spirit" is a categorization that is never used in Sanskrit, to my knowledge. It occurs so often in secondary literature, but to me it is normally a sign that the writer is not "thinking in Sanskrit". And in your note below, "soul" translates buddhi? Or citta? On Thu, 9 Apr 2009, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > I think one has to clarify what is meant by manas. The translation as "mind" > is convenient, but does not convey the sense of "mind" in English. According > to the major philosophical schools (Nyaya,Vaisesika,Mimamsa) the mind is as > small as an atom and does not have a fixed location, but moves very quickly > throughout the body: One can only feel or cognize something because the > "mind" is there and is in contact with the soul. Although the soul is > all-pervasive, its cognitions are limited to the place where the "mind" is > located. There is only one place in the body, a special area in the heart > called puriitat (mentioned also in the Brhadaranyakopanishad), which is > exception to the rule. If the mind retreats to the puriitat, the soul stops > cognizing (as in sleep without dreams). > Best wishes > EF Dominik From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Apr 9 10:15:14 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 11:15:14 +0100 Subject: mana in heart or head? In-Reply-To: <20090408T175414Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085738.23782.12811817941261168281.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > How do they deal with the fact that blows to the head can affect mental > functionings, or even permanently damage them? Good question :-) I haven't seen anything about this in the chapters on unm?da. D From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu Apr 9 06:00:27 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 11:30:27 +0530 Subject: Name that verse! Message-ID: <161227085730.23782.6666632399757862104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my young days the verse was used to get young students of Sanskrit into difficulty. Asked to answer the exact location they would immediately reply "Giitaa" and then?discover that they have been fooled. ? --- On Thu, 9/4/09, Ganesan wrote: From: Ganesan Subject: Re: Name that verse! To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 9 April, 2009, 9:39 AM Friends, I have heard that this verse occurs in the HanumannATaka also known as MahAnATaka. Anyway it has to be verified. The correct reading of the first half is: jaanaami dharma.m na ca me prav.rtti.h . jaanaamyadharma.m na ca me niv.rtti.h . Thanks Ganesan Dr.T.Ganesan Charg? de Recherches French Institute 11, St. Louis Street PONDICHERRY-605001 INDIA Tel: +91 - 413 - 233 4168 ext. 123 E mail: ganesan at ifpindia.org Web: www.ifpindia.org ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 7:49 PM Subject: Name that verse! Dear friends, It's time to play the perennially pleasant Indological game of "can you identify the source of this verse?" It's one that I learned orally long ago, and, if I recall correctly, it was attributed to one or another Deviitantra. I am not awarding prizes for the the successful entry, but I will be grateful for the reference: dharm.m janaamy aha.m, na ca me prav.rtti.h adharma.m janaamy aha.m, na ca me niv.rtti.h thanks in advance to all contestants, Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu Apr 9 09:49:36 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 11:49:36 +0200 Subject: mana in heart or head? In-Reply-To: <20090408T175414Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085734.23782.12334768342749469848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think one has to clarify what is meant by manas. The translation as "mind" is convenient, but does not convey the sense of "mind" in English. According to the major philosophical schools (Nyaya,Vaisesika,Mimamsa) the mind is as small as an atom and does not have a fixed location, but moves very quickly throughout the body: One can only feel or cognize something because the "mind" is there and is in contact with the soul. Although the soul is all-pervasive, its cognitions are limited to the place where the "mind" is located. There is only one place in the body, a special area in the heart called puriitat (mentioned also in the Brhadaranyakopanishad), which is exception to the rule. If the mind retreats to the puriitat, the soul stops cognizing (as in sleep without dreams). Best wishes EF Quoting Allen W Thrasher : > Dominik said: > > "Finally, discourse on the brain in ancient Indian texts, including > medical texts, is extremely limited. It's function was certainly > *not* known, and it was viewed as some sort of fatty tissue > (vas?(-cha??))." > > How do they deal with the fact that blows to the head can affect > mental functionings, or even permanently damage them? > > Allen > > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the > Library of Congress. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu Apr 9 10:21:12 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 12:21:12 +0200 Subject: mana in heart or head? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085740.23782.3829119674901541126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > And in your note below, "soul" translates buddhi? Or citta? Sorry. It translates aatman. Also far from being ideal. > > On Thu, 9 Apr 2009, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > >> I think one has to clarify what is meant by manas. The translation >> as "mind" is convenient, but does not convey the sense of "mind" in >> English. According to the major philosophical schools >> (Nyaya,Vaisesika,Mimamsa) the mind is as small as an atom and does >> not have a fixed location, but moves very quickly throughout the >> body: One can only feel or cognize something because the "mind" is >> there and is in contact with the soul. Although the soul is >> all-pervasive, its cognitions are limited to the place where the >> "mind" is located. There is only one place in the body, a special >> area in the heart called puriitat (mentioned also in the >> Brhadaranyakopanishad), which is exception to the rule. If the mind >> retreats to the puriitat, the soul stops cognizing (as in sleep >> without dreams). >> Best wishes >> EF > > > Dominik > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From sellmers at GMX.DE Thu Apr 9 13:04:30 2009 From: sellmers at GMX.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 15:04:30 +0200 Subject: mana in heart or head? In-Reply-To: <746542.42594.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085750.23782.14424859331442605693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A useful, but perhaps not so well known publication pertaining to this question is: Ernst Windisch, "?ber den Sitz der denkenden Seele, besonders bei den Indern und Griechen, und eine Etymologie von gr. ???????? [prapi?des]", in: Berichte ?ber die Verhandlungen der k?niglich- s?chsischen Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften zu Leipzip, Phil.-hist. Classe, 43 (1891) 157-203. Of the places discussed by Windisch, two that might point to a certain association of head (though not brain) and mental functions may be of special interest here: 1. In RV II 16,2 it is said of Indra: ha?ste va?jra? bha?rati ??r?a??i kra?tum, where most translators (but not Windisch himself) understand kra?tu as "wisdom" or the like. 2. Sometimes the five pr??as (= indriy??i) are located in the head, and that includes also manas. One of the earliest instances seems to be ?Br IX 2,2,5: pa?cadh?vihito v? 'ya? ??r?an pr??o mano v?k pr??a? cak?u? ?rotram (quoted after Windisch, without accents). I have the impression that the reason for the location of kratu and manas in the head is their link to speech, which is necessarily located there, but this would have to be verified. Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl Am 08.04.2009 um 09:57 schrieb Peter Friedlander: > Dear Colleagues, > I am looking at a, probably 16th century Nath Siddha work, the > Gorakh Machindra bodh, and note that in it the seat of the mana is > still located in the heart, not the head. > > Nowadays in Hindi mana means both the heart and the mind, but I am > not sure when it began its migration up into the head as it is now > imagined. In particular was it only under the influence of western > thought or are there pre-colonial period texts which speak of the > seat of thought as being in the head? > > regards > --------------------------- > Peter Friedlander > 21 Hindhede Dr #04-04 > Singapore, 589318 > Handphone: (65) 90624357 > > > Enjoy a safer web experience. Upgrade to the new Internet > Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7. Get it now. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Apr 9 13:56:38 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 15:56:38 +0200 Subject: mana in heart or head? In-Reply-To: <004c01c9b902$66064590$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <161227085756.23782.17017228170553275456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is very interesting indeed. The classical ?yurvedic text of V?gbha?a and other older texts talk about six causes (3 humours, humoral conjunction, anguish, poison) leading to damage of the tubes that carry manas and thus unm?da. Uttaratantra, adhy?ya 6: unm?d?? ?a? p?thagdo?anicay?dhivi?odbhav?? unm?do n?ma manaso do?air unm?rgagair mada? 1 ??r?ram?nasair du??air ahit?d annap?nata? vik?t?s?tmyasamal?d vi?am?d upayogata? 2 vi?a??asy?lpasattvasya vy?dhivegasamudgam?t k???asya ce???vai?amy?t p?jyap?j?vyatikram?t 3 ?dhibhi?cittavibhra???d vi?e?opavi?e?a ca ebhir hi h?nasattvasya h?di do??? prad??it?? 4 dhiyo vidh?ya k?lu?ya? hatv? m?rg?n manovah?n unm?da? kurvate tena dh?vij??nasm?tibhram?t 5 (Translated and discussed in my Roots of Ayurveda). -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Thu, 9 Apr 2009, Dan Lusthaus wrote: >>> Allen W Thrasher wrote: >>> How do they deal with the fact that blows to the head can affect mental >>> functionings, or even permanently damage them? > [Dominik replied] >> Good question :-) I haven't seen anything about this in the chapters on > unm?da. > > If the head/brain can be considered a vital organ (Dominik suggested not), > then Asanga has this covered, or at least implied in his definition of > unm?da in the Mano-bh?mi of the Yog?c?rabh?mi: > > > katham unm?dyati | p?rva-karm?k?epatay? dh?tu-vaisamyataya uttr?sa-bhayatay? > marm?bhigh?ta-tay? bh?ta-sam?ve?atay? || > > > > Or does marm?bhigh?ta have a clearly defined denotation in the medical > literature? In any case, I find his definition intriguing. > > > > Dan Lusthaus > From drdavis at WISC.EDU Thu Apr 9 21:22:28 2009 From: drdavis at WISC.EDU (Donald R. Davis, Jr.) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 16:22:28 -0500 Subject: majority in Hindu law In-Reply-To: <21267_1239287677_ZZg0r3Sr7NsgB.00_20090409T103122Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085761.23782.16773179016746953904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen, As always, Ludo Rocher has an article on this issue, "The Status of Minors according to Classical Hindu Law," Recueils de la Societe Jean Bodin 35 (L'Enfant) (1975) 377-393. So far as I know, the standard age for majority is sixteen, as attested in several texts. Before that, the term used is baala; after sixteen one becomes vyavahaarajna (or some synonym). The main legal issue, of course, is the capacity to make valid contracts, but minority also comes with restricted criminal liability and additional protections for the minors' property and person. Independence of the son in terms of residence or occupation is, to my knowledge, not a big issue for the Dharmasastra. All bets are off when it comes to law in practice, however, as you suggest. The ways in which regionalized communities accepted or rejected partitions of joint family property was staggeringly diverse. Our knowledge of this diversity, as in so many areas of Indian law, is almost all recent and observed during colonialism. Best, Don Davis Dept of Languages & Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison Allen W Thrasher wrote: > George Cardona's citation of Patanjali on addressing a son who is independent of his father raises a question I was already meaning to raise here. > > "Patanjali remarks that someone whose father is still alive but is independent is addressed using a gotra term; such an offspring bears the technical name 'gotra' out of scorn, as when one addresses one who should be called gaargyaaya.na (using a yuvan term) is addressed as gargya." > > I was meaning to get Kane from the stacks and check him first, but chance has brought it up. Is there such a thing as an age of majority in Hindu law, an age at which a son may make decisions independent of his father? I can't think of any such thing in law or narratives. In the stories the sons who form romantic marriages usually have fathers already dead, unless they're sent off to a svayamvara like Rama. May a son with a living father decide his own residence or occupation, or contract an otherwise suitable marriage if he is a long distance from his father? > > Of course, some modern regional property regimes allow a son to request (or demand?) his share of the family property from a living father. > > Gunther-Dietz Sontheimer's observation in "The joint Hindu family" that Hindu law has two principles in tension - the subordination of the son to the father and the identity of the son to the father - may be pertinent here. The subjection of adult sons doesn't seem to have worked out to be as drastic as in Roman law. I read an article on Punjab land law once that said that when a decision about land is to be made, all potential male shareholders are consulted, not only adults and youths but boys of seven and up, although the latter's opinion won't be considered a quasi-vote like that of the older males. > > > Allen > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. > From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Thu Apr 9 22:18:57 2009 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 17:18:57 -0500 Subject: majority in Hindu law In-Reply-To: <5311C058D7B74A29877B8D1F1282AB4A@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227085766.23782.13132643975496617593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a vexed question and you repeat the old view. Do take a look at the articles by Albrecht Wezler and Richard Lariviere in the volume I edited on Dharma published as a special issue of the Journal of Indian Philosophy, 2004, vol. 32: pp. 421-873. Patrick Olivelle >I am tempted to suggest that 'law' as Hindu customs, really functions >irrespective of what the Sanskrit texts say. To what extent have the >Sanskrit Dharmashastras any authority in actual life situations? Do >Dharmashastras have any authority at all, or are they simply digests of >ancient Brahmanical advice on many life-issues? >Victor van Bijlert > > >-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Donald R. Davis, Jr. >Verzonden: donderdag 9 april 2009 23:22 >Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Onderwerp: Re: majority in Hindu law > >Allen, > >As always, Ludo Rocher has an article on this issue, "The Status of >Minors according to Classical Hindu Law," Recueils de la Societe Jean >Bodin 35 (L'Enfant) (1975) 377-393. So far as I know, the standard age >for majority is sixteen, as attested in several texts. Before that, the >term used is baala; after sixteen one becomes vyavahaarajna (or some >synonym). The main legal issue, of course, is the capacity to make >valid contracts, but minority also comes with restricted criminal >liability and additional protections for the minors' property and person. > >Independence of the son in terms of residence or occupation is, to my >knowledge, not a big issue for the Dharmasastra. All bets are off when >it comes to law in practice, however, as you suggest. The ways in which >regionalized communities accepted or rejected partitions of joint family >property was staggeringly diverse. Our knowledge of this diversity, as >in so many areas of Indian law, is almost all recent and observed during >colonialism. > >Best, > >Don Davis >Dept of Languages & Cultures of Asia >University of Wisconsin-Madison > >Allen W Thrasher wrote: >> George Cardona's citation of Patanjali on addressing a son who is >independent of his father raises a question I was already meaning to raise >here. >> >> "Patanjali remarks that someone whose father is still alive but is >independent is addressed using a gotra term; such an offspring bears the >technical name 'gotra' out of scorn, as when one addresses one who should be >called gaargyaaya.na (using a yuvan term) is addressed as gargya." >> >> I was meaning to get Kane from the stacks and check him first, but chance >has brought it up. Is there such a thing as an age of majority in Hindu >law, an age at which a son may make decisions independent of his father? I >can't think of any such thing in law or narratives. In the stories the sons >who form romantic marriages usually have fathers already dead, unless >they're sent off to a svayamvara like Rama. May a son with a living father >decide his own residence or occupation, or contract an otherwise suitable >marriage if he is a long distance from his father? >> >> Of course, some modern regional property regimes allow a son to request >(or demand?) his share of the family property from a living father. >> >> Gunther-Dietz Sontheimer's observation in "The joint Hindu family" that >Hindu law has two principles in tension - the subordination of the son to >the father and the identity of the son to the father - may be pertinent >here. The subjection of adult sons doesn't seem to have worked out to be as >drastic as in Roman law. I read an article on Punjab land law once that >said that when a decision about land is to be made, all potential male >shareholders are consulted, not only adults and youths but boys of seven and >up, although the latter's opinion won't be considered a quasi-vote like that >of the older males. >> >> >> Allen >> >> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >> Senior Reference Librarian >> Team Coordinator >> South Asia Team, Asian Division >> Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 >> 101 Independence Ave., S.E. >> Washington, DC 20540-4810 > > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov >> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of >Congress. >> From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Thu Apr 9 21:43:38 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 09 23:43:38 +0200 Subject: majority in Hindu law In-Reply-To: <49DE6714.6030004@wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227085763.23782.11760174464653869958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am tempted to suggest that 'law' as Hindu customs, really functions irrespective of what the Sanskrit texts say. To what extent have the Sanskrit Dharmashastras any authority in actual life situations? Do Dharmashastras have any authority at all, or are they simply digests of ancient Brahmanical advice on many life-issues? Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Donald R. Davis, Jr. Verzonden: donderdag 9 april 2009 23:22 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: majority in Hindu law Allen, As always, Ludo Rocher has an article on this issue, "The Status of Minors according to Classical Hindu Law," Recueils de la Societe Jean Bodin 35 (L'Enfant) (1975) 377-393. So far as I know, the standard age for majority is sixteen, as attested in several texts. Before that, the term used is baala; after sixteen one becomes vyavahaarajna (or some synonym). The main legal issue, of course, is the capacity to make valid contracts, but minority also comes with restricted criminal liability and additional protections for the minors' property and person. Independence of the son in terms of residence or occupation is, to my knowledge, not a big issue for the Dharmasastra. All bets are off when it comes to law in practice, however, as you suggest. The ways in which regionalized communities accepted or rejected partitions of joint family property was staggeringly diverse. Our knowledge of this diversity, as in so many areas of Indian law, is almost all recent and observed during colonialism. Best, Don Davis Dept of Languages & Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison Allen W Thrasher wrote: > George Cardona's citation of Patanjali on addressing a son who is independent of his father raises a question I was already meaning to raise here. > > "Patanjali remarks that someone whose father is still alive but is independent is addressed using a gotra term; such an offspring bears the technical name 'gotra' out of scorn, as when one addresses one who should be called gaargyaaya.na (using a yuvan term) is addressed as gargya." > > I was meaning to get Kane from the stacks and check him first, but chance has brought it up. Is there such a thing as an age of majority in Hindu law, an age at which a son may make decisions independent of his father? I can't think of any such thing in law or narratives. In the stories the sons who form romantic marriages usually have fathers already dead, unless they're sent off to a svayamvara like Rama. May a son with a living father decide his own residence or occupation, or contract an otherwise suitable marriage if he is a long distance from his father? > > Of course, some modern regional property regimes allow a son to request (or demand?) his share of the family property from a living father. > > Gunther-Dietz Sontheimer's observation in "The joint Hindu family" that Hindu law has two principles in tension - the subordination of the son to the father and the identity of the son to the father - may be pertinent here. The subjection of adult sons doesn't seem to have worked out to be as drastic as in Roman law. I read an article on Punjab land law once that said that when a decision about land is to be made, all potential male shareholders are consulted, not only adults and youths but boys of seven and up, although the latter's opinion won't be considered a quasi-vote like that of the older males. > > > Allen > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Fri Apr 10 08:10:51 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 09 10:10:51 +0200 Subject: majority in Hindu law Message-ID: <161227085771.23782.11969830006135457395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks for the interesting references. Victor van Bijlert From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri Apr 10 04:49:29 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 09 10:19:29 +0530 Subject: majority in Hindu law Message-ID: <161227085768.23782.17728718363944349545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 10 04 09 < 'law' as Hindu customs, really functions irrespective of what the Sanskrit texts say> ? It is true that in some cases local customs rather than coded laws worked for village transactions. I made some personal enquiries. In view of the cases I saw, limited to eastern UP and Bengal, it could be concluded that caste Hindus tend to go by the coded law. It is only with 'scheduled castes' that different inheritance and marriage laws (caste law, local custom) can be noted. Divorce, for example, is a commonly accepted practice among such castes. These castes had been deliberately kept outside the mainstream society and called 'gr?mav?hyas'. But this situation of alienation, and only this had been known to? Hegel, Marx, Maine and others who thought that to have been eternal and built up their precious theories on the Orient ('special unchanging character of the East', 'Asiatic mode of production'), could not have developed before the Dharmas?tras. The earlier practice of wide Aryanisation leading to ennobling is very prominent in Kautilya's Artha??stra. The resulting mobility could not have been conducive to the condition?Dr. Bijlert has spoken of. One may have an idea of that mobility from R.C.Hazra's Studies in the Puranic record etc: 207-210 (Dacca, 1940). Revived Aryanisation and? promotion of uniform custom (detested by traditionalists) have been going on for a long time, quite vocally in the 19th century but silently at present. There has been much more comprehensive discussion (2004) than available in Hazra (he just noted something that appeared strange to him) but that is in Bengali. DB. --- On Fri, 10/4/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: majority in Hindu law To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 10 April, 2009, 3:13 AM I am tempted to suggest that 'law' as Hindu customs, really functions irrespective of what the Sanskrit texts say. To what extent have the Sanskrit Dharmashastras any authority in actual life situations? Do Dharmashastras have any authority at all, or are they simply digests of ancient Brahmanical advice on many life-issues? Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Donald R. Davis, Jr. Verzonden: donderdag 9 april 2009 23:22 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: majority in Hindu law Allen, As always, Ludo Rocher has an article on this issue, "The Status of Minors according to Classical Hindu Law," Recueils de la Societe Jean Bodin 35 (L'Enfant) (1975) 377-393.? So far as I know, the standard age for majority is sixteen, as attested in several texts.? Before that, the term used is baala; after sixteen one becomes vyavahaarajna (or some synonym).? The main legal issue, of course, is the capacity to make valid contracts, but minority also comes with restricted criminal liability and additional protections for the minors' property and person. Independence of the son in terms of residence or occupation is, to my knowledge, not a big issue for the Dharmasastra.? All bets are off when it comes to law in practice, however, as you suggest.? The ways in which regionalized communities accepted or rejected partitions of joint family property was staggeringly diverse.? Our knowledge of this diversity, as in so many areas of Indian law, is almost all recent and observed during colonialism. Best, Don Davis Dept of Languages & Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison Allen W Thrasher wrote: > George Cardona's citation of Patanjali on addressing a son who is independent of his father raises a question I was already meaning to raise here. > > "Patanjali remarks that someone whose father is still alive but is independent is addressed using a gotra term; such an offspring bears the technical name 'gotra' out of scorn, as when one addresses one who should be called gaargyaaya.na (using a yuvan term) is addressed as gargya." > > I was meaning to get Kane from the stacks and check him first, but chance has brought it up.? Is there such a thing as an age of majority in Hindu law, an age at which a son may make decisions independent of his father?? I can't think of any such thing in law or narratives.? In the stories the sons who form romantic marriages usually have fathers already dead, unless they're sent off to a svayamvara like Rama.? May a son with a living father decide his own residence or occupation, or contract an otherwise suitable marriage if he is a long distance from his father? > > Of course, some modern regional property regimes allow a son to request (or demand?) his share of the family property from a living father. > > Gunther-Dietz Sontheimer's observation in "The joint Hindu family" that Hindu law has two principles in tension - the subordination of the son to the father and the identity of the son to the father - may be pertinent here.? The subjection of adult sons doesn't seem to have worked out to be as drastic as in Roman law.? I read an article on Punjab land law once that said that when a decision about land is to be made, all potential male shareholders are consulted, not only adults and youths but boys of seven and up, although the latter's opinion won't be considered a quasi-vote like that of the older males. > > > Allen > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >??? Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Fri Apr 10 16:39:27 2009 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 09 16:39:27 +0000 Subject: WG: Book announcement (apologies for cross-mailing) Message-ID: <161227085773.23782.2463975869680219121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am glad to inform that another volume in the series Ethno-Indology has been published: Best wishes, Axel Michaels Schuler, Barbara Of Death and Birth Icakkiyamman, a Tamil Goddess, in Ritual and Story With a Film on DVD by the Author volume : 8 (Ethno-Indology) pages/dimensions : XIV, 501 pages - 29,7 ? 21,0 cm binding: Gebunden publishing date: 1. Auflage 22.05.2009 price info: 98,00 Eur[D] / 100,80 Eur[A] / 166,00 CHF ISBN: 978-3-447-05844-5 Scholars of popular Hindu religion in India have always been fascinated by oral texts and rituals, but surprisingly only few attempts have as yet been made to analyse the relationship between rituals and texts systematically. This book contributes to the filling of this gap. Focusing on the dynamics of a local (non-Brahmanical) ritual, its modular organisation and inner logic, the interaction between narrative text and ritual, and the significance of the local versus translocal nature of the text in the ritual context, the study provides a broad range of issues for comparison. It demonstrates that examining texts in their context helps to understand better the complexity of religious traditions and the way in which ritual and text are programmatically employed. The author offers a vivid description of a hitherto unnoticed ritual system, along with the first translation of a text called the Icakkiyamman-Katai (IK). Composed in the Tamil language, the IK represents a substantially longer and embellished form of a core versio which probably goes as far back as the seventh century C.E. Unlike the classical source, this text has been incorporated into a living tradition, and is being constantly refashioned. A range of text versions have been encapsulated in the form of a conspectus, which will shed light on the text?s variability or fixity and will add to our knowledge of bardic creativity. From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 10 16:53:45 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (Veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 09 22:23:45 +0530 Subject: Fwd: a query on vruttikaara vaamana In-Reply-To: <5d0c8f350903292230g53f459fp6f19b96fa6b2a12c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227085776.23782.8053219271961701355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend of mine (not a member of this list) has asked this query ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Srinidhi V Date: Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 11:00 AM Subject: a query on vruttikaara vaamana To: veerakp at gmail.com Dear Scholars, Who is the author of vrutti on bhagavadgita which accarya shankara quotes in 2.11 ? It is also abundantly quoted in Madhusudana Saraswati's commentary as vrutti, and in avigItA as `iti vAmanaH'. If it is vAmana, is he the the same vaamana of kaashika fame? I also request to share any info on commentaries on Bhagavdgita before Shankara's time. Thanks, Srinidhi --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ ?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ? ?????? ??????????????? ?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? (?.??.) -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Sat Apr 11 15:10:18 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 09 17:10:18 +0200 Subject: "kaapya-" vs. "kaapeya-" (Re: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan In-Reply-To: <25484873.1239273704174.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227085778.23782.8652415018484654857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Cardona, thank you very much for this clarification. I shall try to find the 1963 book by V.S. Agrawal. I have a related question, concerning another s?tra, namely PS_4,1.107: kapi-bodh?d ??girase || PS_4,1.107 || {{Vasu: "The affix 'ya?' comes in the sense of a Gotra descendant, after the words /kapi/ and /bodha/, when the special descendants of the family of the Angiras are meant."}} {{Boehtlingk: "Von /kapi/ und /bodha/, wenn ein ??girasa gemeint ist"}} {{Renou: "(Le suffixe secondaire 'ya?' est valable pour former un patronymique restreint) apr?s les noms /kapi?/ et /bodha?/ quand il s'agit du clan des A?giras." [NOTE EXPLICATIVE: /k?pya?/ 'petit-fils de kapi, des A?giras', /baudhya?/ 'petit-fils de Bodha']}} I see in the 1953 book by John Brough (/The Early Brahmanical System of Gotra and Pravara/, Cambridge University Press), on p. 30 (fn. 1) and on p. 33, that the "kapis" oscillate between the the /Kevala Angirases/ and the /Bharadv?jas/ (exogamous unit VII, subset of "A?girases" [according to page 29: "both the Gautamas and the Bh?radv?jas [are classified] under the Angirases"]). I see in the notes by Vasu (p.668 in the 1988 reprint) that the specification "??girase" (inside PS_4,1.107) seems to be a criterion for choosing either the form /k?pya?/ (if Angiras) or /k?p?ya?/ (if not Angiras?). Is it known in which part of India the form /k?pya?/ was found and in which part of India the form /k?p?ya?/ was found? I am especially interested in the case of Tamil Nadu brahmins, because the inside /Karandai Tamil Sangam Plates/ (of king Rajendrachola I) [Archaeological survey of India, 1984, K.G. Krishnan (ed.)], 10 different brahmins (among the 1083 brahmins who are enumerated) have "kapi" as their gotra, namely the Brahmins numbered 167, 201, 225, 237, 239, 306, 439, 906, 937 & 954. I would be grateful for any comment on actual usage. -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) George Cardona a ?crit : > Dear colleague, The "suutras" are clearly not part of the original A.s.taadhyaayii text as known to Kaatyaayana and Patanjali. *4.1.166: v.rddhasya ca puujaayaam is vaarttika 3 to 4.1.163 (jiivati tu va.m'sye yuvaa. *4.1.167: yuuna's ca kutsaayaam is included as part of the suutra text of the Kaa'sikaav.rtti but is identified as not part of the original text by Kaiya.ta in his Pradiipam (Rohtak ed. III.617) on 4.1.162 (apatyam pautraprabh.rti gotram) vt. 2 (jiivadva.m'sya.m ca kutsitam), where Kaiya.ta cites yuuna's ca kutsaayaam and remarks that this statement shows the suutra in question does not stem from the sage: yuuna's ca kutsaayaam iti suutram anaar.sam iti vacanam. In his Bhaa.sya on 4.1.162 vt. 2 (Kielhorn-Abhyankar ed. II.265.5-8), Patanjali remarks that someone whose father is still alive but is independent is addressed using a gotra term; such an offspring bears the technical name 'gotra' out of scorn, as when one addresses one who should be called gaargyaaya.na (using a yuvan term) is addressed as gargya. Conversely, an elder who rspresents his line and is properly referred to using a gotra term like gaargya may affectionately be addressed using a yuvan term like gaargyaaya.na, now used as an honorific, since youth is something desirable (Bh. on 4.1.163 vt. 3, II.265.23-25). There is a very old but still informative pamphlet by V. S. Agrawal, 'Gotras in Paa.nini'(Varanasi, 1963), but I don't know of a detailed study of the usage in the domains you mention. I hope this helps. George Cardona > > -----Original Message----- > >> From: Jean-Luc Chevillard >> Sent: Apr 9, 2009 4:47 AM >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Subject: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan >> >> Dear list members, >> >> I would like to have information regarding the actual use of /gotra/ (or >> /v?ddha/ ?) and /yuvan/ for referring to individuals or for adressing them. >> >> I would like to have a clear understanding of the purport of the >> following two s?tra-s (found among the s?tra-s of P??ini but said to be >> in fact v?rttika-s): >> >> v?ddhasya ca p?j?y?m || PS_4,1.166 || {{Vasu: "The Gotra is sometimes >> optionally regarded as Yuvan, when respectful reference to him is >> intended"}} {{Boehtlingk: "Auch statt des Geschlechtsnamens kann man das >> zweite Patronymicum brauchen, wenn man Jemand ehren will."}} {{Renou: >> "(Le nom technique de /yuvan/) peut ?tre le substitut (du patronymique >> restreint) dit /v?ddha/ quand il y a intention d'honorer."}} >> >> y?na? ca kuts?y?m || PS_4,1.167 || {{Vasu: "The Yuvan is optionally >> spoken of as Gotra, when contemptuous reference to him is intended"}} >> {{Boehtlingk: "Auch den Juvan kann man mit dem Geschlechtsnamen >> bezeichnen, wenn man ihn schm?hen will"}} {{Renou: "(Le nom technique de >> /v?ddha/) peut ?tre le substitut du nom de /yuvan/ quand il y a >> intention de critiquer"}} >> >> Has anybody written (in English, or French, or German, ...) on the >> actual use as seen in literature, in inscriptions, etc.? >> >> I would be grateful for any bibliographical pointer or for comments. >> >> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >> > > From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Apr 11 21:26:41 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 09 17:26:41 -0400 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227085781.23782.8428534207195630592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleague, I'm glad I was able to help. I regret, however, that I am unable to give you any detailed information concerning the geographical distribution of the kaapya and kaapeya descendants. I know that both the derivates occur in passages of early Upani.sads (B.rhadaara.nyaka, Chaandogya), and I'll check as soon as I can and get back to you. If I recall correctly, though, I don't think these inform us definitively about geographical distribution. All the more disappointing in view of what you say about the Tamil Nadu situation! Sorry not to be able to help more. By the way, Agrawal's is not a real book but merely a small pamphlet with materials extracted from his larger work (India as known to Paa.nini). It may be that you cannot obtain the pamphlet. If you wish, I can easily make a xerographic copy and send it to you by mail. With best wishes, George Cardona -----Original Message----- >From: Jean-Luc Chevillard >Sent: Apr 11, 2009 11:10 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: "kaapya-" vs. "kaapeya-" (Re: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan > >Dear Professor Cardona, > >thank you very much for this clarification. I shall try to find the 1963 >book by V.S. Agrawal. > >I have a related question, concerning another s?tra, namely PS_4,1.107: > >kapi-bodh?d ??girase || PS_4,1.107 || {{Vasu: "The affix 'ya?' comes in >the sense of a Gotra descendant, after the words /kapi/ and /bodha/, >when the special descendants of the family of the Angiras are meant."}} >{{Boehtlingk: "Von /kapi/ und /bodha/, wenn ein ??girasa gemeint ist"}} >{{Renou: "(Le suffixe secondaire 'ya?' est valable pour former un >patronymique restreint) apr?s les noms /kapi?/ et /bodha?/ quand il >s'agit du clan des A?giras." [NOTE EXPLICATIVE: /k?pya?/ 'petit-fils de >kapi, des A?giras', /baudhya?/ 'petit-fils de Bodha']}} > >I see in the 1953 book by John Brough (/The Early Brahmanical System of >Gotra and Pravara/, Cambridge University Press), on p. 30 (fn. 1) and on >p. 33, that the "kapis" oscillate between the the /Kevala Angirases/ and >the /Bharadv?jas/ (exogamous unit VII, subset of "A?girases" [according >to page 29: "both the Gautamas and the Bh?radv?jas [are classified] >under the Angirases"]). > >I see in the notes by Vasu (p.668 in the 1988 reprint) that the >specification "??girase" (inside PS_4,1.107) seems to be a criterion for >choosing either the form /k?pya?/ (if Angiras) or /k?p?ya?/ (if not >Angiras?). > >Is it known in which part of India the form /k?pya?/ was found and in >which part of India the form /k?p?ya?/ was found? > >I am especially interested in the case of Tamil Nadu brahmins, because >the inside /Karandai Tamil Sangam Plates/ (of king Rajendrachola I) >[Archaeological survey of India, 1984, K.G. Krishnan (ed.)], 10 >different brahmins (among the 1083 brahmins who are enumerated) have >"kapi" as their gotra, namely the Brahmins numbered 167, 201, 225, 237, >239, 306, 439, 906, 937 & 954. > >I would be grateful for any comment on actual usage. > >-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) > > >George Cardona a ?crit : >> Dear colleague, The "suutras" are clearly not part of the original A.s.taadhyaayii text as known to Kaatyaayana and Patanjali. *4.1.166: v.rddhasya ca puujaayaam is vaarttika 3 to 4.1.163 (jiivati tu va.m'sye yuvaa. *4.1.167: yuuna's ca kutsaayaam is included as part of the suutra text of the Kaa'sikaav.rtti but is identified as not part of the original text by Kaiya.ta in his Pradiipam (Rohtak ed. III.617) on 4.1.162 (apatyam pautraprabh.rti gotram) vt. 2 (jiivadva.m'sya.m ca kutsitam), where Kaiya.ta cites yuuna's ca kutsaayaam and remarks that this statement shows the suutra in question does not stem from the sage: yuuna's ca kutsaayaam iti suutram anaar.sam iti vacanam. In his Bhaa.sya on 4.1.162 vt. 2 (Kielhorn-Abhyankar ed. II.265.5-8), Patanjali remarks that someone whose father is still alive but is independent is addressed using a gotra term; such an offspring bears the technical name 'gotra' out of scorn, as when one addresses one who should be called gaargyaaya.na (using a yuvan term) is addressed as gargya. Conversely, an elder who rspresents his line and is properly referred to using a gotra term like gaargya may affectionately be addressed using a yuvan term like gaargyaaya.na, now used as an honorific, since youth is something desirable (Bh. on 4.1.163 vt. 3, II.265.23-25). There is a very old but still informative pamphlet by V. S. Agrawal, 'Gotras in Paa.nini'(Varanasi, 1963), but I don't know of a detailed study of the usage in the domains you mention. I hope this helps. George Cardona >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Jean-Luc Chevillard >>> Sent: Apr 9, 2009 4:47 AM >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Subject: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan >>> >>> Dear list members, >>> >>> I would like to have information regarding the actual use of /gotra/ (or >>> /v?ddha/ ?) and /yuvan/ for referring to individuals or for adressing them. >>> >>> I would like to have a clear understanding of the purport of the >>> following two s?tra-s (found among the s?tra-s of P??ini but said to be >>> in fact v?rttika-s): >>> >>> v?ddhasya ca p?j?y?m || PS_4,1.166 || {{Vasu: "The Gotra is sometimes >>> optionally regarded as Yuvan, when respectful reference to him is >>> intended"}} {{Boehtlingk: "Auch statt des Geschlechtsnamens kann man das >>> zweite Patronymicum brauchen, wenn man Jemand ehren will."}} {{Renou: >>> "(Le nom technique de /yuvan/) peut ?tre le substitut (du patronymique >>> restreint) dit /v?ddha/ quand il y a intention d'honorer."}} >>> >>> y?na? ca kuts?y?m || PS_4,1.167 || {{Vasu: "The Yuvan is optionally >>> spoken of as Gotra, when contemptuous reference to him is intended"}} >>> {{Boehtlingk: "Auch den Juvan kann man mit dem Geschlechtsnamen >>> bezeichnen, wenn man ihn schm?hen will"}} {{Renou: "(Le nom technique de >>> /v?ddha/) peut ?tre le substitut du nom de /yuvan/ quand il y a >>> intention de critiquer"}} >>> >>> Has anybody written (in English, or French, or German, ...) on the >>> actual use as seen in literature, in inscriptions, etc.? >>> >>> I would be grateful for any bibliographical pointer or for comments. >>> >>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >>> >> >> From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Apr 12 05:57:23 2009 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 09 01:57:23 -0400 Subject: "kaapya-" vs. "kaapeya-" (Re: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan Message-ID: <161227085784.23782.7897628560575271194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear JLC, We have had discussions on "kApya" in Indology some years ago. As for the name "kapi", it is also found as gotra name for persons 178 and 179 (who hailed respectively from paRAntUr and perumputUr) of taNTantOTTam plates of Pallava Nandivarman II. See SII 2, no. 99. But much more frequent in inscriptions is the usage in the sense of 'one belonging to x gotra'. Here the Tamil inscriptions use "kAppiyan2". For example, see SII 8, no.196 in Anbil. In my opinion, caGkam poets kAppiyan2 cEntan2Ar and kAppiyARRuk kApiyan2Ar, the grammarians tolkAppiyan2. and palkAppiyan2 belonged to this gotra. It is also possible that "kAppiyat tol kuTi" in CilappatikAram 30.83 to brahmins of this gotra or a settlement of these brahmins. Chitrarekha Gupta considers kapi and kApya as referring to the same gotra. ("The Brahmans of India: A Study Based on Inscriptions," Sundeep Prakashan, Delhi, 1983, p. 116) Regards, S. Palaniappan In a message dated 4/11/2009 10:10:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR writes: I am especially interested in the case of Tamil Nadu brahmins, because the inside /Karandai Tamil Sangam Plates/ (of king Rajendrachola I) [Archaeological survey of India, 1984, K.G. Krishnan (ed.)], 10 different brahmins (among the 1083 brahmins who are enumerated) have "kapi" as their gotra, namely the Brahmins numbered 167, 201, 225, 237, 239, 306, 439, 906, 937 & 954. I would be grateful for any comment on actual usage **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220572838x1201387489/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26 hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooterNO62) From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Sun Apr 12 08:50:41 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 09 03:50:41 -0500 Subject: questions on Prakrit Message-ID: <161227085786.23782.9357069907957139686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues: I have two brief queries regarding points of Prakrit: 1. As a general rule, a word final consisting of a long vowel with anusvara (e.g. iiM) can only be followed, in the next word, by a syllable beginning with a single consonant. (A double consonant adds a mora to the preceding syllable, which is ruled out when the syllable is of 2 morae.) This rule should be scrupulously observed in verse, of course, but my question concerns its treatment in prose. Are exceptions to be considered simply as wrong? or does prose composition allow some leeway here? (I am ignoring, by the way, and am not interested in, the treatment of a following word initial beginning with a vowel.) 2. Can someone recommend a convenient guide to Prakrit prosody, similar to the appendix on Skt prosody in Apte's dictionary? thanks for your recommendations, Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Apr 12 14:25:18 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 09 10:25:18 -0400 Subject: message missent Message-ID: <161227085794.23782.5237021070095726038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My regrets for having inadvertently sent to the entire list a message meant privately for Jean-Luc Chevillard. I find it difficult to get used to the fact that hitting 'reply' instead of 'reply to all' results in a reply being sent to all list members instead of to the individual who wrote the message. George Cardona From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Sun Apr 12 09:35:38 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 09 11:35:38 +0200 Subject: questions on Prakrit In-Reply-To: <20090412035041.BVK54212@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085789.23782.6267449509875799084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, This is not exactly (or not at all) a response to Matthew's query: > 2. Can someone recommend a convenient guide to Prakrit > prosody, similar to the appendix on Skt prosody in > Apte's dictionary? > But for those who are not aware of it, rather buried as it is, an incredibly informative piece is: Hideaki Nakatani, "Metre and Euphony (sandhi) in the Nilamatapurana" in A Study of the Nilamata - Aspects of Hinduism in Ancient Kashmir - edited by Yasuke IKARI. Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University, 1994. With best regards, Jonathan -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Sun Apr 12 09:57:23 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 09 11:57:23 +0200 Subject: What happened when Brahmins became native Tamil speakers? (Re: "kaapya-" vs. "kaapeya-" (Re: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085792.23782.7756304180005706827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear SP, yes I remember of the discussions concerning "kApya" on Indology, notably in March and April 1997 (twelve years ago). I am aware of the existence of the poets (K?ppiya? C?nta??r, K?ppiy???uk K?ppiya??r) and grammarians (Tolk?ppiya?, Palk?ppiya?) which you mentionned, and one could also add to the list the poet Ve???rk K?ppiya?, who is mentionned as a member of the Middle Ca?kam in the initial section of the commentary to the /Ka?aviyal e??a I?aiya??r Akapporu?/. One of the important studies (written in Tamil) where the origin and formation of the name Tolk?ppiya? is discussed is the 1904 article ("I?aicca?kam") by M. Raghava Aiyangar, which is found on pp. 88-101 inside the 1938 collection of his articles (/?r?yccit Tokuti/, reprint: Tanjore Tamil University, 1984) . The most relevant page for the current discussion might be p.97, where he connects Tamil and Sanskrit sources. What I was trying to do, while starting the present thread, was to acquire a more precise idea of what may have happened when Brahmins became native Tamil speakers, after migrating to Tamil Nadu. And the gotra-related vocabulary seemed to be a very important component on which to concentrate. Transparent flexional/morphological derivations (such as are seen in Sanskrit) were becoming "opaque" in the new linguistic context and those brahmins had to make choices regarding the way they should be publicly addressed or referred to in the Tamil-speaking world (i.e. the /Tami? k??u nallulakam/). One of the parameters for which I would like to have a more clear understanding is the order of the components, inside names which have several components. For instance, in the Anbil South-Indian Inscription to which you refer in your message (SII 8n no.196) [found "on a pillar lying in front of the Vighnesvara Temple ..."], the component "k?ppiyan" (spelt with a dental "n" and not an alveolar "?") is found 5 times, and each time it is the first component in a long name, all the long names ending with the coordinating particle "-um" so that we have the sequence: -- k?ppiyan va?uka? ka?att?n v?[ciri]yum -- k?ppiyan centan m[?]?amu?aiy?num -- k?ppiyan centan muci?i...nmaliyum -- k?ppiyan centan c[o]matevanum -- k?ppiyan va?ukan t?motiranum On the other hand, in the literary sources mentionned before, the "k?ppiya?" component comes last (see K?ppiy???uk K?ppiya??r, Ve???rk K?ppiya?), the exception being K?ppiya? C?nta??r. There are rules in the Tolk?ppiyam concerning the order of components in long names (see for instance TC41c, as per the s?tra numbers inside the /C???varaiyam/) but I am not sure they are sufficient for understanding/explaining all that we meet with in literature and in inscriptions. This is certainly a vast field for which a complete answer cannot be obtained on a mailing list. However, pointers to articles (and books) concerning the "syntax" of long names in India are welcome. Best wishes to all -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan a ?crit : > > Dear JLC, > > We have had discussions on "kApya" in Indology some years ago. > > As for the name "kapi", it is also found as gotra name for persons 178 and > 179 (who hailed respectively from paRAntUr and perumputUr) of taNTantOTTam > plates of Pallava Nandivarman II. See SII 2, no. 99. But much more frequent > in inscriptions is the usage in the sense of 'one belonging to x gotra'. > Here the Tamil inscriptions use "kAppiyan2". For example, see SII 8, no.196 > in Anbil. In my opinion, caGkam poets kAppiyan2 cEntan2Ar and kAppiyARRuk > kApiyan2Ar, the grammarians tolkAppiyan2. and palkAppiyan2 belonged to this > gotra. It is also possible that "kAppiyat tol kuTi" in CilappatikAram 30.83 > to brahmins of this gotra or a settlement of these brahmins. > > Chitrarekha Gupta considers kapi and kApya as referring to the same gotra. > ("The Brahmans of India: A Study Based on Inscriptions," Sundeep Prakashan, > Delhi, 1983, p. 116) > > Regards, > S. Palaniappan > > In a message dated 4/11/2009 10:10:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR writes: > > > I am especially interested in the case of Tamil Nadu brahmins, because > the inside /Karandai Tamil Sangam Plates/ (of king Rajendrachola I) > [Archaeological survey of India, 1984, K.G. Krishnan (ed.)], 10 > different brahmins (among the 1083 brahmins who are enumerated) have > "kapi" as their gotra, namely the Brahmins numbered 167, 201, 225, 237, > 239, 306, 439, 906, 937 & 954. > > I would be grateful for any comment on actual usage > > > > > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Apr 12 19:48:14 2009 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 09 15:48:14 -0400 Subject: What happened when Brahmins became native Tamil speakers? (Re: "kaapya-" ... Message-ID: <161227085799.23782.7591492769550827842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear JLC, In my opinion, the use of dental n vs. alveolar n2 as in SII v8, no.196 is not a significant issue. As you know, there are many case where in the same inscription, the same name occurs with both variants. For kAppiyan2 with alveolar n2, see SII 19, nos. 62, 63, and 335. Two of my earlier posts that may be related to this issue are. _http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9908&L=INDOLOGY&P=R2624&I=-3_ (http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9908&L=INDOLOGY&P=R2624&I=-3) _http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0608&L=INDOLOGY&P=R479&I=-3_ (http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0608&L=INDOLOGY&P=R479&I=-3) In the names of Classical Tamil (CT) poets and the persons they sung about, some seem to have only gotra component while others have gotra as well as given names while others have some or all of the following: names of the name of original region, name of original town/village, (qualified) name of gotra, current town/village, father and given name. So we have AmUrk koutaman2 cAtEvan2Ar and kOtaman2Ar as well as cellUrk kOcikan2 kaNNan2Ar and maturai iLaGkoucikan2Ar. The need for the use of given name might have been based on how well-known the person was in the literary circles. Consider the case of the title kAviti discussed by pErAciriyar. We have CT poets, iLampullUrk kAviti, kiTaGkil kAvitik kIran2 kaNNan2Ar, and AvUrk kAvitikaL cAtEvan2Ar. Thus what tolkAppiyar says is a general rule. But depending on the 'branding' of the individual person, the minimal number of referential terms/names/titles one needs to specifically identify a person could have varied and the gotra-derivative name can be in the middle or at the end in literary usage. The case of the inscriptional usage might be slightly different since the inscriptions were legal documents and one needs to have more formal identification. This could have been probably similar to the current popular usage of 'kalaiJar' which while in general could mean any artist (honorific), it specifically refers to the present Chief Minister Karunanidhi. I guess in the northern context it is similar to 'Panditji' which referred to Jawaharlal Nehru. Regards, Palaniappan In a message dated 4/12/2009 4:57:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR writes: Dear SP, yes I remember of the discussions concerning "kApya" on Indology, notably in March and April 1997 (twelve years ago). I am aware of the existence of the poets (K?ppiya? C?nta??r, K?ppiy??? uk K?ppiya??r) and grammarians (Tolk?ppiya?, Palk?ppiya?) which you mentionned, and one could also add to the list the poet Ve???rk K?ppiya?, who is mentionned as a member of the Middle Ca?kam in the initial section of the commentary to the /Ka?aviyal e??a I?aiya??r Akapporu?/. One of the important studies (written in Tamil) where the origin and formation of the name Tolk?ppiya? is discussed is the 1904 article ("I?aicca?kam") by M. Raghava Aiyangar, which is found on pp. 88-101 inside the 1938 collection of his articles (/?r?yccit Tokuti/, reprint: Tanjore Tamil University, 1984) . The most relevant page for the current discussion might be p.97, where he connects Tamil and Sanskrit sources. What I was trying to do, while starting the present thread, was to acquire a more precise idea of what may have happened when Brahmins became native Tamil speakers, after migrating to Tamil Nadu. And the gotra-related vocabulary seemed to be a very important component on which to concentrate. Transparent flexional/morphological derivations (such as are seen in Sanskrit) were becoming "opaque" in the new linguistic context and those brahmins had to make choices regarding the way they should be publicly addressed or referred to in the Tamil-speaking world (i.e. the /Tami? k??u nallulakam/). One of the parameters for which I would like to have a more clear understanding is the order of the components, inside names which have several components. For instance, in the Anbil South-Indian Inscription to which you refer in your message (SII 8n no.196) [found "on a pillar lying in front of the Vighnesvara Temple ..."], the component "k?ppiyan" (spelt with a dental "n" and not an alveolar "?") is found 5 times, and each time it is the first component in a long name, all the long names ending with the coordinating particle "-um" so that we have the sequence: -- k?ppiyan va?uka? ka?att?n v?[ciri]yum -- k?ppiyan centan m[?]?amu?aiy?num -- k?ppiyan centan muci?i...nmaliyum -- k?ppiyan centan c[o]matevanum -- k?ppiyan va?ukan t?motiranum On the other hand, in the literary sources mentionned before, the "k?ppiya?" component comes last (see K?ppiy???uk K?ppiya??r, Ve???rk K?ppiya?), the exception being K?ppiya? C?nta??r. There are rules in the Tolk?ppiyam concerning the order of components in long names (see for instance TC41c, as per the s?tra numbers inside the /C???varaiyam/) but I am not sure they are sufficient for understanding/explaining all that we meet with in literature and in inscriptions. This is certainly a vast field for which a complete answer cannot be obtained on a mailing list. However, pointers to articles (and books) concerning the "syntax" of long names in India are welcome. Best wishes to all -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220572838x1201387489/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26 hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooterNO62) From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Sun Apr 12 16:57:33 2009 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 09 18:57:33 +0200 Subject: questions on Prakrit In-Reply-To: <20090412035041.BVK54212@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085797.23782.867173662858686336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > 2. Can someone recommend a convenient guide to Prakrit > prosody, similar to the appendix on Skt prosody in > Apte's dictionary? H.D. Velankar: Chandonu'nus"saasana of Hemachandrasuuri (A comprehensive treatise of Sanskrit, Prakrit and Apabhra.m"sa Prosody). Bombay: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan 1961 (Singhi Jain Series. 49). It not only contains various exhaustive indices of Sanskrit metres (by far superior to Apte's useful appendix), but also has a "Classified List showing the Structure of Prakrit Metres" on pp. 336-364 (= Appendix II). Roland Steiner From Bradley.Clough at MSO.UMT.EDU Mon Apr 13 01:40:41 2009 From: Bradley.Clough at MSO.UMT.EDU (Clough, Bradley) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 09 19:40:41 -0600 Subject: questions on Prakrit Message-ID: <161227085804.23782.16231451508678741162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: Indology on behalf of mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU ...Can someone recommend a convenient guide to Prakrit prosody, similar to the appendix on Skt prosody in Apte's dictionary? --------------------------------------------------- Dear Matthew and All, I haven't looked at this in quite a while, but worth looking at is: R. Pischel, *Comparative Grammar of the Prakrit Languages* Translation of the German by S. Jha, second ed. (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1965). (German original: Gramatik der Prakrit-Sprachen, Strassburg, 1900). Best Wishes, Brad Bradley Clough The University of Montana bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Sun Apr 12 21:15:30 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 09 23:15:30 +0200 Subject: What happened when Brahmins became native Tamil speakers? (Re: "kaapya-" ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085801.23782.857755393449237803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear SP, I agree that the fact that inscriptions use "n" or "?" is not a significant issue. I just mentionned it for the sake of completion; Regarding your two earlier posts (the first one dated 14 Aug 1999 and the second one dated 10 Aug 2006), they contain indeed a lot of interesting data, some of which seems to be interpretable using the "v?ddha vs. yuvan" distinction which was evoked at the beginning of the thread and commented upon by Professor Cardona: in . You write (in your 1999 post [converted to Unicode, hopefully without mistakes]) There are three Classical Tamil poets from Madurai with the following names: p?l?ciriyar napp?la??r, p?l?ciriyar na???ma??r, p?l?ciriya? c?nta? ko??a??r Regarding each of these U. V. Saminataiyar suggests they were probably teachers of children, based on Ta. p?la < Skt. b?la (ca?kak?lap pulavarka?, p.342-3). The Tamil Lexicon also interprets it in the same manner. However, a study of Tamil inscriptions reveals that p?l?ciriya? is a variant of Tamilized p?r??arya, ie., one who belonged to the lineage of par??ara/?r?. An inscription, SII vol. 17, no. 598, of the period of Kulottunga Chola II (12 th century) gives three variants of the same name as: p?r?ciria?, p?r??r?a?, p?l??r?a? When considered along with other names in the inscription, it is obvious that it is a gotra name. There are other inscriptions which give the variant p?l?ciria?. Another inscription gives the variant p?r?carian. This will help us correctly interpret the name of another CT poet "maturai i?amp?l?ciriya? c?nta? k?tta??r". UVS intreprets the name as teacher c?nta? k?tta? who was originally from the place called i?amp?l and later settled in Madurai. The correct interpretation should be, "c?nta? k?tta?, the young one of the lineage of par??ara/?r?". We have other poets with part of the names derived from gotra names such as: maturai i?a?kaucika??r (kau?ika) , ko/??ima?kalam v?tu?i na?c?nta??r (v?dh?la) , k?cipa? k?ra??r (k??yapa) , ka?ampa??rc c???iliya??r (????ilya), ta?k?l ?ttir?ya? ce?ka??a??r (?treya) Similarly, CT poet k?????u e?iccil?r m??ala? maturaikkkumara??r and m??ala ma?aiy?? of Cilappatik?ram were brahmins of the m??ala gotra which is one of the gotras listed by Chitralekha Gupta in "The Brahmanas of India., 1983, p.117. Similarly, tolk?ppiya? probably belonged to k?pi/k?pya gotra. Both m??ala? and k?ppiya? occur in inscriptions. Do I understand you correctly if I say that you think that the "v?ddha vs. yuvan" distinction (i.e. "g?rgya" vs. "g?rgy?ya?a"), could be expressed in Tamil, AT LEAST in the cases WHEN it was felt NECESSARY, by making use of /tol/ ("ancient, senior") and /i?am/ ("young, junior") components of the long names. In that case, the forms you quote, /i?amp?l?ciriya?/ and /i?a?kaucika??r/ are the Tamil equivalent of /yuvan/ forms. Similarly, /tolk?ppiya?/ could be the Tamil equivalent of a /v?ddha/ form. Is this what you mean? Best wishes -- Jean-Luc Chevillard Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan a ?crit : > > Dear JLC, > > In my opinion, the use of dental n vs. alveolar n2 as in SII v8, no.196 is > not a significant issue. As you know, there are many case where in the > same inscription, the same name occurs with both variants. For kAppiyan2 with > alveolar n2, see SII 19, nos. 62, 63, and 335. > > Two of my earlier posts that may be related to this issue are. > > _http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9908&L=INDOLOGY&P=R2624&I=-3_ > (http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9908&L=INDOLOGY&P=R2624&I=-3) > _http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0608&L=INDOLOGY&P=R479&I=-3_ > (http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0608&L=INDOLOGY&P=R479&I=-3) > > > In the names of Classical Tamil (CT) poets and the persons they sung about, > some seem to have only gotra component while others have gotra as well as > given names while others have some or all of the following: names of the > name of original region, name of original town/village, (qualified) name of > gotra, current town/village, father and given name. > > So we have AmUrk koutaman2 cAtEvan2Ar and kOtaman2Ar as well as cellUrk > kOcikan2 kaNNan2Ar and maturai iLaGkoucikan2Ar. The need for the use of given > name might have been based on how well-known the person was in the literary > circles. Consider the case of the title kAviti discussed by pErAciriyar. > We have CT poets, iLampullUrk kAviti, kiTaGkil kAvitik kIran2 kaNNan2Ar, and > AvUrk kAvitikaL cAtEvan2Ar. Thus what tolkAppiyar says is a general rule. > But depending on the 'branding' of the individual person, the minimal > number of referential terms/names/titles one needs to specifically identify a > person could have varied and the gotra-derivative name can be in the middle > or at the end in literary usage. The case of the inscriptional usage might > be slightly different since the inscriptions were legal documents and one > needs to have more formal identification. > > This could have been probably similar to the current popular usage of > 'kalaiJar' which while in general could mean any artist (honorific), it > specifically refers to the present Chief Minister Karunanidhi. I guess in the > northern context it is similar to 'Panditji' which referred to Jawaharlal > Nehru. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > In a message dated 4/12/2009 4:57:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR writes: > > Dear SP, > > yes I remember of the discussions concerning "kApya" on Indology, > notably in March and April 1997 (twelve years ago). > > I am aware of the existence of the poets (K?ppiya? C?nta??r, K?ppiy??? > uk > K?ppiya??r) and grammarians (Tolk?ppiya?, Palk?ppiya?) which you > mentionned, and one could also add to the list the poet Ve???rk > K?ppiya?, who is mentionned as a member of the Middle Ca?kam in the > initial section of the commentary to the /Ka?aviyal e??a I?aiya??r > Akapporu?/. > > One of the important studies (written in Tamil) where the origin and > formation of the name Tolk?ppiya? is discussed is the 1904 article > ("I?aicca?kam") by M. Raghava Aiyangar, which is found on pp. 88-101 > inside the 1938 collection of his articles (/?r?yccit Tokuti/, reprint: > Tanjore Tamil University, 1984) . The most relevant page for the current > discussion might be p.97, where he connects Tamil and Sanskrit sources. > > What I was trying to do, while starting the present thread, was to > acquire a more precise idea of what may have happened when Brahmins > became native Tamil speakers, after migrating to Tamil Nadu. And the > gotra-related vocabulary seemed to be a very important component on > which to concentrate. > > Transparent flexional/morphological derivations (such as are seen in > Sanskrit) were becoming "opaque" in the new linguistic context and those > brahmins had to make choices regarding the way they should be publicly > addressed or referred to in the Tamil-speaking world (i.e. the /Tami? > k??u nallulakam/). > > One of the parameters for which I would like to have a more clear > understanding is the order of the components, inside names which have > several components. > > For instance, in the Anbil South-Indian Inscription to which you refer > in your message (SII 8n no.196) > [found "on a pillar lying in front of the Vighnesvara Temple ..."], the > component "k?ppiyan" (spelt with a dental "n" and not an alveolar "?") > is found 5 times, and each time it is the first component in a long > name, all the long names ending with the coordinating particle "-um" so > that we have the sequence: > > -- k?ppiyan va?uka? ka?att?n v?[ciri]yum > > -- k?ppiyan centan m[?]?amu?aiy?num > > -- k?ppiyan centan muci?i...nmaliyum > > -- k?ppiyan centan c[o]matevanum > > -- k?ppiyan va?ukan t?motiranum > > On the other hand, in the literary sources mentionned before, the > "k?ppiya?" component comes last (see K?ppiy???uk K?ppiya??r, Ve???rk > K?ppiya?), the exception being K?ppiya? C?nta??r. > > There are rules in the Tolk?ppiyam concerning the order of components in > long names (see for instance TC41c, as per the s?tra numbers inside the > /C???varaiyam/) but I am not sure they are sufficient for > understanding/explaining all that we meet with in literature and in > inscriptions. > > This is certainly a vast field for which a complete answer cannot be > obtained on a mailing list. > > However, pointers to articles (and books) concerning the "syntax" of > long names in India are welcome. > > Best wishes to all > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) > > > From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 13 04:27:18 2009 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 09 04:27:18 +0000 Subject: "kaapya-" vs. "kaapeya-" (Re: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan In-Reply-To: <49E0B2D9.5000103@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227085806.23782.1327449312596308497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jean-Luc, I do not have the bibliographic resources at hand here to investigate the matter much further, but I can report that the gotra-name K?pyasa (sic) is one among the handful of gotra-names current nowadays among the Atharvavedic brahmins of Orissa. I don't know how things stood for P??ini and the p??in?yas, but at least the Atharvavedic tradition itself is replete with self-references as ??girasa. For the complete list of gotra-names prevalent in the modern Orissan Atharvavedic community, see the article "A List of Paippal?da-AtharvaVedin Settlements", contributed by M. Witzel and myself to Abhijit Ghosh (ed.), ?tharva?? (A collection of essays on the AtharvaVeda with special reference to its Paippal?da tradition), Kolkata: Sanskrit Book Depot, 2002, pp. 167-179. For a sample of medieval Atharvavedic gotra-names, see A. Schmiedchen, "Epigraphical Evidence on the History of Atharvavedic Brahmins", in A. Griffiths & A. Schmiedchen (eds.), The Atharvaveda and its Paippal?da??kh?, Aachen: Shaker Verlag, 2007. I had never realized the illustrious authority upon which the name K?pyasa ultimately rests, having always considered it a surprising metathesis from one of the other common Atharvavedic gotra-names, viz. K??yapa, pronounced K?syapa in Orissa. I now guess it is rather a contamination of K?pya with K??yapa, or derived from a genitive form K?pyasya [gotra]. As I noticed last fall, the Karandai plates also happen to list Atharvavedic brahmins, whose mention is otherwise very rare in South Indian inscriptions (see again Schmiedchen's paper, in which the evidence of the Karandai plates had regrettably escaped attention). Do any of them bear the gotra-affiliation K?pya? Arlo Griffiths?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (EFEO)Jalan Ampera III, no. 26Jakarta Selatan 12550Indonesia ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 17:10:18 +0200 > From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR > Subject: "kaapya-" vs. "kaapeya-" (Re: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Dear Professor Cardona, > > thank you very much for this clarification. I shall try to find the 1963 > book by V.S. Agrawal. > > I have a related question, concerning another s?tra, namely PS_4,1.107: > > kapi-bodh?d ??girase || PS_4,1.107 || {{Vasu: "The affix 'ya?' comes in > the sense of a Gotra descendant, after the words /kapi/ and /bodha/, > when the special descendants of the family of the Angiras are meant."}} > {{Boehtlingk: "Von /kapi/ und /bodha/, wenn ein ??girasa gemeint ist"}} > {{Renou: "(Le suffixe secondaire 'ya?' est valable pour former un > patronymique restreint) apr?s les noms /kapi?/ et /bodha?/ quand il > s'agit du clan des A?giras." [NOTE EXPLICATIVE: /k?pya?/ 'petit-fils de > kapi, des A?giras', /baudhya?/ 'petit-fils de Bodha']}} > > I see in the 1953 book by John Brough (/The Early Brahmanical System of > Gotra and Pravara/, Cambridge University Press), on p. 30 (fn. 1) and on > p. 33, that the "kapis" oscillate between the the /Kevala Angirases/ and > the /Bharadv?jas/ (exogamous unit VII, subset of "A?girases" [according > to page 29: "both the Gautamas and the Bh?radv?jas [are classified] > under the Angirases"]). > > I see in the notes by Vasu (p.668 in the 1988 reprint) that the > specification "??girase" (inside PS_4,1.107) seems to be a criterion for > choosing either the form /k?pya?/ (if Angiras) or /k?p?ya?/ (if not > Angiras?). > > Is it known in which part of India the form /k?pya?/ was found and in > which part of India the form /k?p?ya?/ was found? > > I am especially interested in the case of Tamil Nadu brahmins, because > the inside /Karandai Tamil Sangam Plates/ (of king Rajendrachola I) > [Archaeological survey of India, 1984, K.G. Krishnan (ed.)], 10 > different brahmins (among the 1083 brahmins who are enumerated) have > "kapi" as their gotra, namely the Brahmins numbered 167, 201, 225, 237, > 239, 306, 439, 906, 937 & 954. > > I would be grateful for any comment on actual usage. > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) > > > George Cardona a ?crit : >> Dear colleague, The "suutras" are clearly not part of the original A.s.taadhyaayii text as known to Kaatyaayana and Patanjali. *4.1.166: v.rddhasya ca puujaayaam is vaarttika 3 to 4.1.163 (jiivati tu va.m'sye yuvaa. *4.1.167: yuuna's ca kutsaayaam is included as part of the suutra text of the Kaa'sikaav.rtti but is identified as not part of the original text by Kaiya.ta in his Pradiipam (Rohtak ed. III.617) on 4.1.162 (apatyam pautraprabh.rti gotram) vt. 2 (jiivadva.m'sya.m ca kutsitam), where Kaiya.ta cites yuuna's ca kutsaayaam and remarks that this statement shows the suutra in question does not stem from the sage: yuuna's ca kutsaayaam iti suutram anaar.sam iti vacanam. In his Bhaa.sya on 4.1.162 vt. 2 (Kielhorn-Abhyankar ed. II.265.5-8), Patanjali remarks that someone whose father is still alive but is independent is addressed using a gotra term; such an offspring bears the technical name 'gotra' out of scorn, as when one addresses one who should be called gaargyaaya.na (using a yuvan term) is addressed as gargya. Conversely, an elder who rspresents his line and is properly referred to using a gotra term like gaargya may affectionately be addressed using a yuvan term like gaargyaaya.na, now used as an honorific, since youth is something desirable (Bh. on 4.1.163 vt. 3, II.265.23-25). There is a very old but still informative pamphlet by V. S. Agrawal, 'Gotras in Paa.nini'(Varanasi, 1963), but I don't know of a detailed study of the usage in the domains you mention. I hope this helps. George Cardona >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Jean-Luc Chevillard >>> Sent: Apr 9, 2009 4:47 AM >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Subject: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan >>> >>> Dear list members, >>> >>> I would like to have information regarding the actual use of /gotra/ (or >>> /v?ddha/ ?) and /yuvan/ for referring to individuals or for adressing them. >>> >>> I would like to have a clear understanding of the purport of the >>> following two s?tra-s (found among the s?tra-s of P??ini but said to be >>> in fact v?rttika-s): >>> >>> v?ddhasya ca p?j?y?m || PS_4,1.166 || {{Vasu: "The Gotra is sometimes >>> optionally regarded as Yuvan, when respectful reference to him is >>> intended"}} {{Boehtlingk: "Auch statt des Geschlechtsnamens kann man das >>> zweite Patronymicum brauchen, wenn man Jemand ehren will."}} {{Renou: >>> "(Le nom technique de /yuvan/) peut ?tre le substitut (du patronymique >>> restreint) dit /v?ddha/ quand il y a intention d'honorer."}} >>> >>> y?na? ca kuts?y?m || PS_4,1.167 || {{Vasu: "The Yuvan is optionally >>> spoken of as Gotra, when contemptuous reference to him is intended"}} >>> {{Boehtlingk: "Auch den Juvan kann man mit dem Geschlechtsnamen >>> bezeichnen, wenn man ihn schm?hen will"}} {{Renou: "(Le nom technique de >>> /v?ddha/) peut ?tre le substitut du nom de /yuvan/ quand il y a >>> intention de critiquer"}} >>> >>> Has anybody written (in English, or French, or German, ...) on the >>> actual use as seen in literature, in inscriptions, etc.? >>> >>> I would be grateful for any bibliographical pointer or for comments. >>> >>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx From kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE Tue Apr 14 07:32:31 2009 From: kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE (=?utf-8?Q?petra_kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 09 09:32:31 +0200 Subject: amitabha In-Reply-To: <20090412035041.BVK54212@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085808.23782.13838150797619360404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for literature on Amitabha in Central Asia (in the widest sense). I would be grateful for any reference. Thanks in advance, P. Kieffer-P?lz ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Tue Apr 14 14:30:02 2009 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 09 10:30:02 -0400 Subject: amitabha Message-ID: <161227085819.23782.12016852494683808219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are a number of Paintings of Amitabha in the Kozlov material from Kara Khoto. They were published in a recent Russian Language Catalogue published by the Hermitage that a student of mine showed me during a seminar. A few of them were published in Thurman and Rhie Wisdom and Compassion and again by Yu-Min Lee in the news letter of the National Palace Museum in Taiwan. There are also numbers of caves at Dunhuang with Sukhavati scenes in them (usually based on the Wuliangshou fo Kuang Jing). From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Apr 14 10:29:01 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 09 12:29:01 +0200 Subject: questions on Prakrit In-Reply-To: <20090412035041.BVK54212@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085810.23782.7531604434637467526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > 2. Can someone recommend a convenient guide to Prakrit > prosody, similar to the appendix on Skt prosody in > Apte's dictionary? and to the other suggestions, I would add that A. K. Warder's "Pali Metre" is full of important observations and discoveries. (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/957316) Dominik From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 14 12:25:09 2009 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 09 14:25:09 +0200 Subject: "kaapya-" vs. "kaapeya-" (Re: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan In-Reply-To: <49E0B2D9.5000103@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227085812.23782.2239378348411710519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jean-Luc, As for kaappia in Tol-kaappian/-n2 it would still be worthwhile to mention the alternative theory, viz. that it derives from kaavya so that the grammar's name would become "old kaavya". Kapi (brown), kaapya and kaapeya are to be compared with similar words, often color words, used for individuals, families and gotras: kapi-la (and kaapila, kaapileya, kaapilika), kapi~njala (francoline partridge and gotra name), kapi.s.tha-la; pi:nga, pi:nga-la. (Mayrhofer EWAIA notes for kapi 'ape' similarities with a Greek but also with non-ia words for ape ["akkad. 'uquupu' " etc.] and prefers to derive the meaning of the solidly attested color-term kapi [also in proper names for plants] from 'ape': 'ape-colored'> 'brown'.) C.G. Kashikar in his 1969 report of his tour "In search of mss of the paippalaada literature" published in A. Ghosh, Aatharva.n?, Kolkata: Sanskrit Book Depot, 2002, pp. 156-166, noted the gotra name Kaapyasa among Paippalaada Atharvavedins and suggested (p. 164) to associate Kaapyasa with Kaa;syapa. Witzel et alii in the same volume (pp. 167-179) also notes Kaapyasa as a gotra-name and expresses his doubts about the spelling. Instead of resorting to speculation as to how Kaapyasa and Kaa;syapa might or might not be related, we have to compare the word Kaapyasa with words of the same semantic and functional domain, and pay special attention to the similarities and contrasts between the two accounts of Kashikar and Witzel et alii. Kashikar (p. 164) notes among Paippalaada Atharvavedins the gotra names Kaapya, ;Saa.n.dilya, Vaatsa, Kumuda (for those with surname Upaadhyaaya) and adds that "many of them belong to the Kaapyasa (= Kaa;syapa?) gotra." For those with Pa.n.daa as surname he notes the gotras Kaapya, Vaatsa and Bharadvaaja; and again "many belong to the Kaapyasa gotra." Karas, acc. to Kashikar, belong to the Paraa;sara gotra and the Mi;sras to the Haariita gotra. Witzel et alii (p. 179) notes only Kaapyasa and omits Kaapya noted twice by Kashikar (both for Upaadhyaayas and Pa.n.daas); Witzel et alii further mentions, next to Kumuda (as noted by Kashikar), Kumudesa and adds "(spelling?)"; and Kau.n.danasya (spelling?) ... Vaatsasa (spelling?) ... Haaritasya (spelling?). There is an apparent predilection for gotra-names with an -as-/-asa-/-asya suffix (once, in Kumuda/Kumudesa, -sa with palatalisation of preceding a) among Paippalaada Atharvavedins which in Kashikar's report are mostly normalized to the corresponding gotra-name without this suffix, except for Kaapyasa. If Kaapyasa could be shown to be an old formation it could derive from an unattested *kapyas/*kapiiyas "rather brown" next to kapi 'brown' and kapi.s.tha (in kapi.s.tha-la) ('most brown'?). Otherwise, in the light of the above mentioned evidence, a redundant and in pronunciation partly "verschliffen" genetive ending -asya would explain Kaapyasa and the additional cases noted by Witzel et alii for the Paippalaada Atharvavedins. Vaatsasa (Witzel et al.) would then correspond to Vaatsa (noted by Kashikar and well attested next to Vaatsya and Vaatsyaayana), Haaritasya (Witzel et al.) to the widely attested name Haariita (Kashikar), etc. Jan Houben On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 5:10 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard < jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote: > Dear Professor Cardona, > > thank you very much for this clarification. I shall try to find the 1963 > book by V.S. Agrawal. > > I have a related question, concerning another s?tra, namely PS_4,1.107: > > kapi-bodh?d ??girase || PS_4,1.107 || {{Vasu: "The affix 'ya?' comes in the > sense of a Gotra descendant, after the words /kapi/ and /bodha/, when the > special descendants of the family of the Angiras are meant."}} {{Boehtlingk: > "Von /kapi/ und /bodha/, wenn ein ??girasa gemeint ist"}} {{Renou: "(Le > suffixe secondaire 'ya?' est valable pour former un patronymique restreint) > apr?s les noms /kapi?/ et /bodha?/ quand il s'agit du clan des A?giras." > [NOTE EXPLICATIVE: /k?pya?/ 'petit-fils de kapi, des A?giras', /baudhya?/ > 'petit-fils de Bodha']}} > > I see in the 1953 book by John Brough (/The Early Brahmanical System of > Gotra and Pravara/, Cambridge University Press), on p. 30 (fn. 1) and on p. > 33, that the "kapis" oscillate between the the /Kevala Angirases/ and the > /Bharadv?jas/ (exogamous unit VII, subset of "A?girases" [according to page > 29: "both the Gautamas and the Bh?radv?jas [are classified] under the > Angirases"]). > > I see in the notes by Vasu (p.668 in the 1988 reprint) that the > specification "??girase" (inside PS_4,1.107) seems to be a criterion for > choosing either the form /k?pya?/ (if Angiras) or /k?p?ya?/ (if not > Angiras?). > > Is it known in which part of India the form /k?pya?/ was found and in which > part of India the form /k?p?ya?/ was found? > > I am especially interested in the case of Tamil Nadu brahmins, because the > inside /Karandai Tamil Sangam Plates/ (of king Rajendrachola I) > [Archaeological survey of India, 1984, K.G. Krishnan (ed.)], 10 different > brahmins (among the 1083 brahmins who are enumerated) have "kapi" as their > gotra, namely the Brahmins numbered 167, 201, 225, 237, 239, 306, 439, 906, > 937 & 954. > > I would be grateful for any comment on actual usage. > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) > > > George Cardona a ?crit : > >> Dear colleague, The "suutras" are clearly not part of the original >> A.s.taadhyaayii text as known to Kaatyaayana and Patanjali. *4.1.166: >> v.rddhasya ca puujaayaam is vaarttika 3 to 4.1.163 (jiivati tu va.m'sye >> yuvaa. *4.1.167: yuuna's ca kutsaayaam is included as part of the suutra >> text of the Kaa'sikaav.rtti but is identified as not part of the original >> text by Kaiya.ta in his Pradiipam (Rohtak ed. III.617) on 4.1.162 (apatyam >> pautraprabh.rti gotram) vt. 2 (jiivadva.m'sya.m ca kutsitam), where Kaiya.ta >> cites yuuna's ca kutsaayaam and remarks that this statement shows the suutra >> in question does not stem from the sage: yuuna's ca kutsaayaam iti suutram >> anaar.sam iti vacanam. In his Bhaa.sya on 4.1.162 vt. 2 (Kielhorn-Abhyankar >> ed. II.265.5-8), Patanjali remarks that someone whose father is still alive >> but is independent is addressed using a gotra term; such an offspring bears >> the technical name 'gotra' out of scorn, as when one addresses one who >> should be called gaargyaaya.na (using a yuvan term) is addressed as >> gargya. Conversely, an elder who rspresents his line and is properly >> referred to using a gotra term like gaargya may affectionately be addressed >> using a yuvan term like gaargyaaya.na, now used as an honorific, since >> youth is something desirable (Bh. on 4.1.163 vt. 3, II.265.23-25). There is >> a very old but still informative pamphlet by V. S. Agrawal, 'Gotras in >> Paa.nini'(Varanasi, 1963), but I don't know of a detailed study of the usage >> in the domains you mention. I hope this helps. George Cardona >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >>> From: Jean-Luc Chevillard >>> Sent: Apr 9, 2009 4:47 AM >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Subject: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan >>> >>> Dear list members, >>> >>> I would like to have information regarding the actual use of /gotra/ (or >>> /v?ddha/ ?) and /yuvan/ for referring to individuals or for adressing them. >>> >>> I would like to have a clear understanding of the purport of the >>> following two s?tra-s (found among the s?tra-s of P??ini but said to be in >>> fact v?rttika-s): >>> >>> v?ddhasya ca p?j?y?m || PS_4,1.166 || {{Vasu: "The Gotra is sometimes >>> optionally regarded as Yuvan, when respectful reference to him is >>> intended"}} {{Boehtlingk: "Auch statt des Geschlechtsnamens kann man das >>> zweite Patronymicum brauchen, wenn man Jemand ehren will."}} {{Renou: "(Le >>> nom technique de /yuvan/) peut ?tre le substitut (du patronymique restreint) >>> dit /v?ddha/ quand il y a intention d'honorer."}} >>> >>> y?na? ca kuts?y?m || PS_4,1.167 || {{Vasu: "The Yuvan is optionally >>> spoken of as Gotra, when contemptuous reference to him is intended"}} >>> {{Boehtlingk: "Auch den Juvan kann man mit dem Geschlechtsnamen bezeichnen, >>> wenn man ihn schm?hen will"}} {{Renou: "(Le nom technique de /v?ddha/) peut >>> ?tre le substitut du nom de /yuvan/ quand il y a intention de critiquer"}} >>> >>> Has anybody written (in English, or French, or German, ...) on the actual >>> use as seen in literature, in inscriptions, etc.? >>> >>> I would be grateful for any bibliographical pointer or for comments. >>> >>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >>> >>> >> >> >> > From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Tue Apr 14 12:38:53 2009 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 09 14:38:53 +0200 Subject: amitabha In-Reply-To: <93D7F2B7-F0BC-4202-9917-6F73919BF7AF@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085815.23782.2105425796761956267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am Dienstag, den 14.04.2009, 09:32 +0200 schrieb petra kieffer-P?lz: > I am looking for literature on Amitabha in Central Asia (in the > widest sense). I would be grateful for any reference. There is on-going work on the so-called "Abitaki" fragments, an Amitabha text in Old Turkish (Uyghur). Here is a small list of some articles and books: Ahmet Temir, Kogi Kudara, Klaus R?hrborn: Die altt?rkischen Abitaki-Fragmente des Etnografya M?zesi, Ankara. In: Turcica 16 (1984), p. 13-28 Osman F. Sertkaya, Klaus R?hrborn: Bruchst?cke der altt?rkischen Amitabha-Literatur aus Istanbul. In: Ural-Altaische Jahrb?cher N.F. 4 (1984), p. 97-117 Geng Shimin (???): Study of Two Folios of the Uighur Text "Abitaki". In: Acta Orientalia [Budapest] 57 (2004), p. 105-113 Geng Shimin: Study of Another Two Folios of the Uighur Text "Abitaki". In: Acta Orientalia [Budapest] 59 (2006), p. 47-56 Geng Shimin: Study on the Uighur Text Abitaki (3). In: Aspects of research into Central Asian Buddhism : in memoriam Kogi Kudara / Peter Zieme (ed.). - Turnhout : Brepols, 2008, p. ?-? Geng Shimin has also published a series of publications on this text in Chinese. Recently, a Russian edition and translation came out [the title is given here in a German transcription of the cyrillic characters]: Tugu?eva, L. Ju.: Sutra Ob??iny belogo lotosa : tjurkskaja versija / faksimile rukopisi, transkripcija teksta, perevod s rannesrednevekovogo tjurkskogo jazyka, predislovie, prime?anija, ukazatel? slov L. Ju. Tugu?evoj. - Moskva : Izdat. Firma "Vosto?naja Literatura" RAN, 2008. - 206 p. - (Pamjatniki pis?mennosti Vostoka ; 127) Uniform title: Y?r?ng lenhua ????k tergini nom ?rdini ISBN 978-5-02-036332-8 [The precious sutra of the White Lotus Society] If I am not altogether wrong, Peter Zieme (Berlin) has announced a monograph on the fragments, too. Hope it helps Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 14 14:06:46 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 09 16:06:46 +0200 Subject: amitabha In-Reply-To: <1239712733.7545.33.camel@vaio> Message-ID: <161227085817.23782.15546680685194532050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a quick additional note to the final remark of Peter Wyzlic > If I am not altogether wrong, Peter Zieme (Berlin) has announced a > monograph on the fragments, too. > I read a draft of this work, which I understood will appear as a posthumous work of Kudara K?gi, edited by Zieme, some time ago, so it certainly exists, but whether it is 'announced' or not I am afraid I do not know. Quite a bit of work has been done on "Pure Land" in Central Asia, primarily by Japanese scholars, but I'm afraid I don't have a handy bibliography. Best, JAS -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Tue Apr 14 15:14:29 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 09 17:14:29 +0200 Subject: Tolkaappiyam & Tolkaappiyan2 (Re: "kaapya-" vs. "kaapeya-" (Re: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085821.23782.7083038634929556952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jan, thanks for you stimulating and thoughtful feedback: () Commenting only on your "remarque liminaire" [SEE BELOW], I wish to provide more detail on the situation. *(A)* Occurences of the word /k?ppiyam/, where it is an adaptation to Tamil of the Sanskrit word /k?vya/ are met with in Tamil. Nobody denies that. An obvious example is the expression /aim-peru?-k?ppiyam/ ("the five big k?ppiyam") which certainly emulates the Sanskrit list(s) of 5 /mah?k?vya/-s That expression is for instance seen inside the commentary by Mayilain?tar (13th cent.) to Na???l 387, inside the enumeration: "aimperu?k?ppiyam, e?peruttokai, pattupp???u, pati?e?k??kka?akku" which lists, after the 5 big K., the 8 anthologies, the 10 songs and the 18 minor works. The earliest attestation of /k?ppiyam/ (= /k?vya/) in Tamil literature might be inside the Ma?im?kalai (19:80). *(B)* Occurrences of the word /k?ppiya?/, which is the adaptation to Tamil of the Sanskrit /k?pya/, which belongs to the gotra-related vocabulary and which is derived from /kapi/ (as per the discussion which has just taken place) are also found. For the recent discussion, see For an instance (and its interpretation), see the page 172, and the entry /k?ppiyan/ inside the /Tami?k Kalve??uc Collakar?ti/ [Glossary of Tamil Inscriptions], compiled by Professor Y. Subbarayalu [2 volumes, Santhi Sadhana Trust, Chennai, 2002] In that glossary, Professor Subbarayalu explains /k?ppiyan/ as /k?ppiya k?ttirattaic c?rntava?/ ("one who belongs to the gotra /k?ppiya/") and gives as an illustration an inscription dated 941, which is precisely the one mentionned by S. Palaniappan in the discussion, and which I have reproduced in the following post: *(C)* The problems starts when one wants to explain the name of the grammatical work called /tolk?ppiyam/. The traditional view, expressed in all commentaries is that the name of the book /tolk?ppiyam/ is derived from the name of its author /tolk?ppiya?/ (honorific: /tolk?ppiya??r/ ). As a matter of fact, what also happens is that commentaries often contain a section that explains how books are named and that that derivation is given as one among several examples (just like the grammar /Akattiyam/ is said to derive its name from its author /Akattiya?(?r)/). On top of that explanation, the name /tolk?ppiya?/ (honorific: /tolk?ppiya??r/ ) is explained as "born in the /k?ppiyak ku?i/" (See Madras Tamil Lexicon, p. 2098), where /ku?i/ is the Tamil equivalent of /gotra/. One point which remains to be explained is why the component /tol/ is added and this was one of my reasons for trying to understand the inner workings of the opposition /v?ddha/ vs. /yuvan/. And I am aware that my explanation is tentative. [Subsidiary question: what does the "pal" component mean inside the name "pal-k?ppiya?" (another grammarian)?] *(D)* As for the "alternative theory", it is found for instance in the section written by Pierre Meile inside L'Inde Classique (1953, Tome II, ? 1904) where he mentions "le trait? didactique intitul? le ? Vieux Po?me ?, /Tolk?ppiyam/" and where he sends the reader to the paragraph ?1539. Inside the /Lexicon of Tamil Literature/ (1995), Kamil Zvelebil writes (on pages 705-706): The name /tol-k?ppiyam/ prob. means "ancient composition" (i.e. DEDR 3516 old, ancient + /k?ppiyam/ < Skt. /k?vya-). This etymology is not waterproof, and other interpretations were suggested [...] The author's name, Tolk?ppiya?/ Tolk?ppiyar/ Tolk?ppiya??r is evidently derived from the name of the book, although different interpretation is possible: "the ancient (/tol/) scion of the K?vyas', i.e. members of the /gotra/ of Kavi (cf. /k?ppiyakku?i/ in --> /Cilappatik?ram/ XXX.83 /k?ppiya-t tolku?i/, ancient Brahmin family of K?vya /gotra/ in T?r?r [...] Although I admire the work of the late Professor Zvelebil, I would have presented the data in the opposite order. *(E)* I suppose the explanation to the confusion is that, as soon as the word /k?ppiyam/, (adaptation of /k?vya/) became current, it became impossible not to think of it while referring to somebody who had the /k?ppiya?/ (derived from gotra "kapi") component in his name. The semantic attraction produced a kind of "popular etymology". Best wishes -- Jean-Luc Chevillard Jan E.M. Houben a ?crit : > Dear Jean-Luc, > As for kaappia in Tol-kaappian/-n2 it would still be worthwhile to mention > the alternative theory, viz. that it derives from kaavya so that the > grammar's name would become "old kaavya". > [...] From opfallon at YAHOO.COM Wed Apr 15 14:12:08 2009 From: opfallon at YAHOO.COM (Oliver Fallon) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 09 07:12:08 -0700 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=83sasa=E1=B9=83de=C5=9Ba?= Message-ID: <161227085824.23782.15733145181958938175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like some help on the identity of the r? Dear Colleagues, I would like some help on the identity of the r?jaha?sa which is the subject of Ved?ntade?ika's Ha?sasa?de?a. He tells us little of the bird except that he repeatedly stresses that it is a pure white water bird and that it has a beautiful call as it flies to which that of the peacock is unfavourably compared. I was first provoked into considering that this is not a goose by a comment in Shastriar's 1902 Madras edition of the poem, where he says: "r?jaha?sa is a species of swan with red legs and bills (sic). Compare 'r?jaha?s?s tu te ca?cucaranair lohitais s?t??'" The colour of the bird's beak and legs are not mentioned in the poem. Can anyone suggest a source for 'r?jaha?s?s tu te ca?cucara?air lohitais s?t??'? There are no swans in the Indian avifauna so an editor/translator who had never actually seen a swan could be forgiven for this misidentification. It is unlikely to be a goose as the Indian bar-headed goose is grey with black and white markings and has yellow beak and legs. However its call is describes in the 10 vol. 'Handbook to the Birds of India and Pakistan' as 'Similar to the Greylag's but more nasal and musical.' The Greylag's call is described thus: 'The far-reaching honking aahng-ung-ung, with its variants, uttered in different keys during the morning and evening flighting, is one of the most exhilarating bird sounds for the sportsman and bird lover. These calls are also uttered when migrating, especially during the night.' Interestingly, the poem describes the bird resting during the night. It is unlikely to be an egret as although these are pure white they have black legs and yellow bills and as for their calls 'Except for an occasional throaty croak when one bird is supplanting a rival, very silent.' This leaves storks and cranes. The white stork has red legs and bill but it's voice is 'Poorly developed. Adults practically silent...' The sarus crane is grey with red head and legs but grey bill. The siberian crane is pure white with red bill and legs and it's call is described as 'A pleasant, soft musical koonk-koonk uttered chiefly in flight.' One problem is that the siberian crane is not now found in South India, but that is not to say that it was not in medieval times. Can anyone on the list suggest other identifications and also quote any definitions of r?jaha?sa from any of the lexicons? For reference I append a previous discussion of this word on the list below. With thanks for your help, Oliver Fallon http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volume-v-78.html Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:28:36 +0100 Reply-To: Indology <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Indology <[log in to unmask]> From: Dominik Wujastyk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Fw: Hamsa Comments: To: Indology <[log in to unmask]> Comments: cc: [log in to unmask] In-Reply-To: <003e01c5c351$8769eac0$5d01000a at krasnal> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Julia Leslie was preparing a comprehensive re-examination of the whole hamsa/swan/goose/flamingo issue, but sadly her premature death last year prevented that work being completed. I do remember several conversations, however, in which Julia noted that the various "hard" positions on the fixed identity of the hamsa were always wrong. It's not "always" a goose, or swan, flamingo, or mythical bird. In deciding how to understand what is meant by "hamsa", "rajahamsa" etc., in any passage, context is very important, Julia thought, including chronological, geographical and narrative context. Her 1998 "A Bird Bereaved" article in JIP demonstrated this method admirably. Unfortunately there isn't a simple, general answer about the identity of hamsa. Interestingly, Julia felt that it was indeed appropriate to understand "swan" in many cases, though not all. She deprecated the rigid identification of "hamsa" with "goose" which has become an automatic reflex in much indological writing since Vogel's 1962 book _The goose in Indian literature and art_, which she felt was based on a too-narrow selection of sources (mainly architectural and mainly Sinhalese). She felt that Dave's _Birds in Sanskrit Literature_ was often more nuanced, better informed ornithologically, and more appropriate. DW On Tue, 27 Sep 2005, Sven Sellmer wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harsha Dehejia" > <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:49 PM > Subject: Hamsa > > >> Sven: >> >> A hamsa is neither a swam or a duck but a mythic bird. >> >> Regards. >> >> Harsha >> Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia >> Ottawa, ON. Canada >> >> PS Can you post this on the Indologist as I am unable to do this as I have >> a new computer address. >> >> >> > From jkirk at SPRO.NET Wed Apr 15 15:58:11 2009 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 09 09:58:11 -0600 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=83sasa=E1=B9=83de=C5=9B?= a In-Reply-To: <971922.20848.qm@web39703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085828.23782.4151870108137369674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See for ex., http://tinyurl.com/ddgnyj ---the section on swans, Sub-family: Cygninae. This site shows photos of each. Tundra Swan Cygnus columbianus - vagrant Whooper Swan Cygnus cygnus - vagrant Mute Swan Cygnus olor - vagrant I could have been one of these three--in ancient times perhaps they were not quite as "vagrant" migrators as they are labeled today. Best, Joanna Kirkpatrick ======================== -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Oliver Fallon Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 8:12 AM I would like some help on the identity of the r? Dear Colleagues, I would like some help on the identity of the r?jaha?sa which is the subject of Ved?ntade?ika's Ha?sasa?de?a. He tells us little of the bird except that he repeatedly stresses that it is a pure white water bird and that it has a beautiful call as it flies to which that of the peacock is unfavourably compared. I was first provoked into considering that this is not a goose by a comment in Shastriar's 1902 Madras edition of the poem, where he says: "r?jaha?sa is a species of swan with red legs and bills (sic). Compare 'r?jaha?s?s tu te ca?cucaranair lohitais s?t??'" The colour of the bird's beak and legs are not mentioned in the poem. Can anyone suggest a source for 'r?jaha?s?s tu te ca?cucara?air lohitais s?t??'? There are no swans in the Indian avifauna so an editor/translator who had never actually seen a swan could be forgiven for this misidentification. It is unlikely to be a goose as the Indian bar-headed goose is grey with black and white markings and has yellow beak and legs. However its call is describes in the 10 vol. 'Handbook to the Birds of India and Pakistan' as 'Similar to the Greylag's but more nasal and musical.' The Greylag's call is described thus: 'The far-reaching honking aahng-ung-ung, with its variants, uttered in different keys during the morning and evening flighting, is one of the most exhilarating bird sounds for the sportsman and bird lover. These calls are also uttered when migrating, especially during the night.' Interestingly, the poem describes the bird resting during the night. It is unlikely to be an egret as although these are pure white they have black legs and yellow bills and as for their calls 'Except for an occasional throaty croak when one bird is supplanting a rival, very silent.' This leaves storks and cranes. The white stork has red legs and bill but it's voice is 'Poorly developed. Adults practically silent...' The sarus crane is grey with red head and legs but grey bill. The siberian crane is pure white with red bill and legs and it's call is described as 'A pleasant, soft musical koonk-koonk uttered chiefly in flight.' One problem is that the siberian crane is not now found in South India, but that is not to say that it was not in medieval times. Can anyone on the list suggest other identifications and also quote any definitions of r?jaha?sa from any of the lexicons? For reference I append a previous discussion of this word on the list below. With thanks for your help, Oliver Fallon http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volume-v-78.html Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:28:36 +0100 Reply-To: Indology <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Indology <[log in to unmask]> From: Dominik Wujastyk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Fw: Hamsa Comments: To: Indology <[log in to unmask]> Comments: cc: [log in to unmask] In-Reply-To: <003e01c5c351$8769eac0$5d01000a at krasnal> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Julia Leslie was preparing a comprehensive re-examination of the whole hamsa/swan/goose/flamingo issue, but sadly her premature death last year prevented that work being completed. I do remember several conversations, however, in which Julia noted that the various "hard" positions on the fixed identity of the hamsa were always wrong. It's not "always" a goose, or swan, flamingo, or mythical bird. In deciding how to understand what is meant by "hamsa", "rajahamsa" etc., in any passage, context is very important, Julia thought, including chronological, geographical and narrative context. Her 1998 "A Bird Bereaved" article in JIP demonstrated this method admirably. Unfortunately there isn't a simple, general answer about the identity of hamsa. Interestingly, Julia felt that it was indeed appropriate to understand "swan" in many cases, though not all. She deprecated the rigid identification of "hamsa" with "goose" which has become an automatic reflex in much indological writing since Vogel's 1962 book _The goose in Indian literature and art_, which she felt was based on a too-narrow selection of sources (mainly architectural and mainly Sinhalese). She felt that Dave's _Birds in Sanskrit Literature_ was often more nuanced, better informed ornithologically, and more appropriate. DW On Tue, 27 Sep 2005, Sven Sellmer wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harsha Dehejia" > <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:49 PM > Subject: Hamsa > > >> Sven: >> >> A hamsa is neither a swam or a duck but a mythic bird. >> >> Regards. >> >> Harsha >> Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia >> Ottawa, ON. Canada >> >> PS Can you post this on the Indologist as I am unable to do this as I >> have a new computer address. >> >> >> > From jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM Wed Apr 15 17:36:32 2009 From: jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM (girish jha) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 09 10:36:32 -0700 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=83sasa=E1=B9=83de=C5=9Ba?= In-Reply-To: <971922.20848.qm@web39703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085830.23782.14755072838765361564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Fallon, I would like to say that the word "rajahamsa"has been frequently used?by Sanskrit Poets. Four kinds of Hamsas have been?mentioned in the Amarakosa(2.23-24): 1.Hamsa 2.Rajahamsa 3.Mallika 4.Dhartarastra.Rajahamsa is also synonymous with Kalahamsa.Rajahamsas tu te camcu caranair lohitah sitah.Rajahamsa is a variety of Hamsa that is white but its beak and legs are red.It is indeed of a specific type.Its?vigraha-vakya is also Hamsanam raja Rajahamsah-it is compounded?by?rajadantadisu param(Panini 2.2.31).Mostly?commentators explain it in the same way.However,one?may be giving the classification of Swans in Zoological terms but Sanskrit Poets have selected it due to its fine appearance. Regards, GIRISH K. JHA, SANSKRIT,PATNA UNIVERSITY,INDIA?? --- On Wed, 4/15/09, Oliver Fallon wrote: From: Oliver Fallon Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?de?a To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 7:12 AM I would like some help on the identity of the r? Dear Colleagues, I would like some help on the identity of the r?jaha?sa which is the subject of Ved?ntade?ika's Ha?sasa?de?a. He tells us little of the bird except that he repeatedly stresses that it is a pure white water bird and that it has a beautiful call as it flies to which that of the peacock is unfavourably compared. I was first provoked into considering that this is not a goose by a comment in Shastriar's 1902 Madras edition of the poem, where he says: "r?jaha?sa is a species of swan with red legs and bills (sic). Compare 'r?jaha?s?s tu te ca?cucaranair lohitais s?t??'" The colour of the bird's beak and legs are not mentioned in the poem. Can anyone suggest a source for 'r?jaha?s?s tu te ca?cucara?air lohitais s?t??'? There are no swans in the Indian avifauna so an editor/translator who had never actually seen a swan could be forgiven for this misidentification. It is unlikely to be a goose as the Indian bar-headed goose is grey with black and white markings and has yellow beak and legs. However its call is describes in the 10 vol. 'Handbook to the Birds of India and Pakistan' as 'Similar to the Greylag's but more nasal and musical.' The Greylag's call is described thus: 'The far-reaching honking aahng-ung-ung, with its variants, uttered in different keys during the morning and evening flighting, is one of the most exhilarating bird sounds for the sportsman and bird lover. These calls are also uttered when migrating, especially during the night.' Interestingly, the poem describes the bird resting during the night. It is unlikely to be an egret as although these are pure white they have black legs and yellow bills and as for their calls 'Except for an occasional throaty croak when one bird is supplanting a rival, very silent.' This leaves storks and cranes. The white stork has red legs and bill but it's voice is 'Poorly developed. Adults practically silent...' The sarus crane is grey with red head and legs but grey bill. The siberian crane is pure white with red bill and legs and it's call is described as 'A pleasant, soft musical koonk-koonk uttered chiefly in flight.' One problem is that the siberian crane is not now found in South India, but that is not to say that it was not in medieval times. Can anyone on the list suggest other identifications and also quote any definitions of r?jaha?sa from any of the lexicons? For reference I append a previous discussion of this word on the list below. With thanks for your help, Oliver Fallon http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volume-v-78.html Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:28:36 +0100 Reply-To: Indology <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Indology <[log in to unmask]> From: Dominik Wujastyk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Fw: Hamsa Comments: To: Indology <[log in to unmask]> Comments: cc: [log in to unmask] In-Reply-To: <003e01c5c351$8769eac0$5d01000a at krasnal> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Julia Leslie was preparing a comprehensive re-examination of the whole hamsa/swan/goose/flamingo issue, but sadly her premature death last year prevented that work being completed. I do remember several conversations, however, in which Julia noted that the various "hard" positions on the fixed identity of the hamsa were always wrong. It's not "always" a goose, or swan, flamingo, or mythical bird. In deciding how to understand what is meant by "hamsa", "rajahamsa" etc., in any passage, context is very important, Julia thought, including chronological, geographical and narrative context. Her 1998 "A Bird Bereaved" article in JIP demonstrated this method admirably. Unfortunately there isn't a simple, general answer about the identity of hamsa. Interestingly, Julia felt that it was indeed appropriate to understand "swan" in many cases, though not all. She deprecated the rigid identification of "hamsa" with "goose" which has become an automatic reflex in much indological writing since Vogel's 1962 book _The goose in Indian literature and art_, which she felt was based on a too-narrow selection of sources (mainly architectural and mainly Sinhalese). She felt that Dave's _Birds in Sanskrit Literature_ was often more nuanced, better informed ornithologically, and more appropriate. DW On Tue, 27 Sep 2005, Sven Sellmer wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harsha Dehejia" > <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:49 PM > Subject: Hamsa > > >> Sven: >> >> A hamsa is neither a swam or a duck but a mythic bird. >> >> Regards. >> >> Harsha >> Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia >> Ottawa, ON. Canada >> >> PS Can you post this on the Indologist as I am unable to do this as I have >> a new computer address. >> >> >> > From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Wed Apr 15 11:24:24 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 09 13:24:24 +0200 Subject: Endowments for Vedic studies in the Karandai plates (Re: "kaapya-" vs. "kaapeya-" (Re: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085826.23782.3557988463855815421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Arlo, I cannot answer your question regarding Atharvavedic brahmins because what I find in the 1984 Karandai plates volume is: -- a list of 1083 brahmins to whom lands where distributed (for creating an /agrah?ra/). For each brahmin receiving a share, the grant records his gotra, his s?tra, his place of birth and his name. The grant was made during the 8th year of the king's reign (supposed to have started in 1012 A.D.) -- a description of the endowments for Vedic studies: on that occasion Atharva veda is mentionned but specific individuals are not mentionned. (See below). K.G. Krishnan, the editor, describes the endowment in the following way (p.63): Endowments for Vedic studies were also made in the following manner: for M?m??sa - 5 /v?li/, for V?danta - 5 /v?li/ and for Vy?kara?a - 4 /v?li/ -- these three are described as /bha??av?itti/. The following described as /ki?aippu?am/ (/gha?ikaippu?am/) get each 2 /v?li/: 1) Pavi?iyam, 2) Taittiriyam 3) V?jasan?yam, 4) Chand?gam (Chhand?gam), 5) Atharvam, 6) Talavak?ram and 7) R?p?vat?ram. Pavi?iyam derived from Bahv?icha stands for ?igv?da.Taittir?yam and V?jasan?yam represent respectively the K?ish?a and ?ukla Yajurv?da. Chhand?gam and Talavak?ram are of S?mav?da. R?p?vat?ra is a work on grammar stated to have been composed by Bha??an?r?ya?a and Dharmak?rti [FOOTNOTE: /History of Sanskrit Literature/ (M. Krishnamachariar), p. 733, note 8] Two /v?li/ of land were assigned to the person teaching the recital of /Sm?itim?la-grantha/ and to the person reciting Bh?ratam. I hope this is useful Best wishes -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) Arlo Griffiths a ?crit : > Dear Jean-Luc, > I do not have the bibliographic resources at hand here to investigate the matter much further, but I can report that the gotra-name K?pyasa (sic) is one among the handful of gotra-names current nowadays among the Atharvavedic brahmins of Orissa. I don't know how things stood for P??ini and the p??in?yas, but at least the Atharvavedic tradition itself is replete with self-references as ??girasa. > For the complete list of gotra-names prevalent in the modern Orissan Atharvavedic community, see the article "A List of Paippal?da-AtharvaVedin Settlements", contributed by M. Witzel and myself to Abhijit Ghosh (ed.), ?tharva?? (A collection of essays on the AtharvaVeda with special reference to its Paippal?da tradition), Kolkata: Sanskrit Book Depot, 2002, pp. 167-179. For a sample of medieval Atharvavedic gotra-names, see A. Schmiedchen, "Epigraphical Evidence on the History of Atharvavedic Brahmins", in A. Griffiths & A. Schmiedchen (eds.), The Atharvaveda and its Paippal?da??kh?, Aachen: Shaker Verlag, 2007. > I had never realized the illustrious authority upon which the name K?pyasa ultimately rests, having always considered it a surprising metathesis from one of the other common Atharvavedic gotra-names, viz. K??yapa, pronounced K?syapa in Orissa. I now guess it is rather a contamination of K?pya with K??yapa, or derived from a genitive form K?pyasya [gotra]. > > As I noticed last fall, the Karandai plates also happen to list Atharvavedic brahmins, whose mention is otherwise very rare in South Indian inscriptions (see again Schmiedchen's paper, in which the evidence of the Karandai plates had regrettably escaped attention). Do any of them bear the gotra-affiliation K?pya? > Arlo Griffiths?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (EFEO)Jalan Ampera III, no. 26Jakarta Selatan 12550Indonesia > > ---------------------------------------- > >> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 17:10:18 +0200 >> From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR >> Subject: "kaapya-" vs. "kaapeya-" (Re: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> >> Dear Professor Cardona, >> >> thank you very much for this clarification. I shall try to find the 1963 >> book by V.S. Agrawal. >> >> I have a related question, concerning another s?tra, namely PS_4,1.107: >> >> kapi-bodh?d ??girase || PS_4,1.107 || {{Vasu: "The affix 'ya?' comes in >> the sense of a Gotra descendant, after the words /kapi/ and /bodha/, >> when the special descendants of the family of the Angiras are meant."}} >> {{Boehtlingk: "Von /kapi/ und /bodha/, wenn ein ??girasa gemeint ist"}} >> {{Renou: "(Le suffixe secondaire 'ya?' est valable pour former un >> patronymique restreint) apr?s les noms /kapi?/ et /bodha?/ quand il >> s'agit du clan des A?giras." [NOTE EXPLICATIVE: /k?pya?/ 'petit-fils de >> kapi, des A?giras', /baudhya?/ 'petit-fils de Bodha']}} >> >> I see in the 1953 book by John Brough (/The Early Brahmanical System of >> Gotra and Pravara/, Cambridge University Press), on p. 30 (fn. 1) and on >> p. 33, that the "kapis" oscillate between the the /Kevala Angirases/ and >> the /Bharadv?jas/ (exogamous unit VII, subset of "A?girases" [according >> to page 29: "both the Gautamas and the Bh?radv?jas [are classified] >> under the Angirases"]). >> >> I see in the notes by Vasu (p.668 in the 1988 reprint) that the >> specification "??girase" (inside PS_4,1.107) seems to be a criterion for >> choosing either the form /k?pya?/ (if Angiras) or /k?p?ya?/ (if not >> Angiras?). >> >> Is it known in which part of India the form /k?pya?/ was found and in >> which part of India the form /k?p?ya?/ was found? >> >> I am especially interested in the case of Tamil Nadu brahmins, because >> the inside /Karandai Tamil Sangam Plates/ (of king Rajendrachola I) >> [Archaeological survey of India, 1984, K.G. Krishnan (ed.)], 10 >> different brahmins (among the 1083 brahmins who are enumerated) have >> "kapi" as their gotra, namely the Brahmins numbered 167, 201, 225, 237, >> 239, 306, 439, 906, 937 & 954. >> >> I would be grateful for any comment on actual usage. >> >> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >> >> >> George Cardona a ?crit : >> >>> Dear colleague, The "suutras" are clearly not part of the original A.s.taadhyaayii text as known to Kaatyaayana and Patanjali. *4.1.166: v.rddhasya ca puujaayaam is vaarttika 3 to 4.1.163 (jiivati tu va.m'sye yuvaa. *4.1.167: yuuna's ca kutsaayaam is included as part of the suutra text of the Kaa'sikaav.rtti but is identified as not part of the original text by Kaiya.ta in his Pradiipam (Rohtak ed. III.617) on 4.1.162 (apatyam pautraprabh.rti gotram) vt. 2 (jiivadva.m'sya.m ca kutsitam), where Kaiya.ta cites yuuna's ca kutsaayaam and remarks that this statement shows the suutra in question does not stem from the sage: yuuna's ca kutsaayaam iti suutram anaar.sam iti vacanam. In his Bhaa.sya on 4.1.162 vt. 2 (Kielhorn-Abhyankar ed. II.265.5-8), Patanjali remarks that someone whose father is still alive but is independent is addressed using a gotra term; such an offspring bears the technical name 'gotra' out of scorn, as when one addresses one who should be called gaargyaaya.na (using a yuvan term) is addressed as gargya. Conversely, an elder who rspresents his line and is properly referred to using a gotra term like gaargya may affectionately be addressed using a yuvan term like gaargyaaya.na, now used as an honorific, since youth is something desirable (Bh. on 4.1.163 vt. 3, II.265.23-25). There is a very old but still informative pamphlet by V. S. Agrawal, 'Gotras in Paa.nini'(Varanasi, 1963), but I don't know of a detailed study of the usage in the domains you mention. I hope this helps. George Cardona >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> >>>> From: Jean-Luc Chevillard >>>> Sent: Apr 9, 2009 4:47 AM >>>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>>> Subject: Actual use of gotra (=vr.ddha) and yuvan >>>> >>>> Dear list members, >>>> >>>> I would like to have information regarding the actual use of /gotra/ (or >>>> /v?ddha/ ?) and /yuvan/ for referring to individuals or for adressing them. >>>> >>>> I would like to have a clear understanding of the purport of the >>>> following two s?tra-s (found among the s?tra-s of P??ini but said to be >>>> in fact v?rttika-s): >>>> >>>> v?ddhasya ca p?j?y?m || PS_4,1.166 || {{Vasu: "The Gotra is sometimes >>>> optionally regarded as Yuvan, when respectful reference to him is >>>> intended"}} {{Boehtlingk: "Auch statt des Geschlechtsnamens kann man das >>>> zweite Patronymicum brauchen, wenn man Jemand ehren will."}} {{Renou: >>>> "(Le nom technique de /yuvan/) peut ?tre le substitut (du patronymique >>>> restreint) dit /v?ddha/ quand il y a intention d'honorer."}} >>>> >>>> y?na? ca kuts?y?m || PS_4,1.167 || {{Vasu: "The Yuvan is optionally >>>> spoken of as Gotra, when contemptuous reference to him is intended"}} >>>> {{Boehtlingk: "Auch den Juvan kann man mit dem Geschlechtsnamen >>>> bezeichnen, wenn man ihn schm?hen will"}} {{Renou: "(Le nom technique de >>>> /v?ddha/) peut ?tre le substitut du nom de /yuvan/ quand il y a >>>> intention de critiquer"}} >>>> >>>> Has anybody written (in English, or French, or German, ...) on the >>>> actual use as seen in literature, in inscriptions, etc.? >>>> >>>> I would be grateful for any bibliographical pointer or for comments. >>>> >>>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) >>>> >>>> >>> > > _________________________________________________________________ > See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Wed Apr 15 17:39:10 2009 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 09 18:39:10 +0100 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des=?iso-8859-1?Q?=B4a?= In-Reply-To: <971922.20848.qm@web39703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085833.23782.8014080957571272720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I expect you are familiar with this book: Vogel, J. P., 1962, The Goose in Indian Literature and Art. Memoirs of the Kern Institute No. II. E. J. Brill, Leiden. According to my notes, Vogel (good name?) identified haMsa and rAjahaMsa with a mainly white form of the Indian goose (Anser indicus), and kalahaMsa with the greylag goose (Anser anser). Valerie J Roebuck At 7:12 am -0700 15/4/09, Oliver Fallon wrote: >I would like some help on the identity of the >ra?jaha?sa which is the subject of >Veda?ntades?ika's Ha?sasa?des?a. He tells us >little of the bird except that he repeatedly >stresses that it is a pure white water bird and >that it has a beautiful call as it flies to >which that of the peacock is unfavourably >compared. I was first provoked into considering >that this is not a goose by a comment in >Shastriar's 1902 Madras edition of the poem, >where he says: "ra?jaha?sa is a species of swan >with red legs and bills (sic). Compare >'ra?jaha?sa?s tu te ca?cucaranair lohitais >si?ta??'" From opfallon at YAHOO.COM Thu Apr 16 09:16:19 2009 From: opfallon at YAHOO.COM (Oliver Fallon) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 09 02:16:19 -0700 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha=?utf-8?Q?=E1=B9=83sasa=E1=B9=83de=C5=9Ba?= Message-ID: <161227085837.23782.17049219836743377117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The 'Handbook of the Many thanks to those who replied to this enquiry. The 'Handbook of the Birds of India and Pakistan' says that no more than a dozen sightings of swans of each species are recorded in the subcontinent, and those in the north and only in very severe winters. We can conclude that the classical and medieval poets had no knowledge of these birds. As the swan is regarded as a noble, beautiful and even royal bird in the West, r?jaha?asa translates culturally as swan into English, but not literally. There is no doubt that the primary meaning of ha?sa is goose, and this is borne out by its cognates: Latin anser; German ganser; English gander etc. I have little doubt that the ha?sas that visited Nala and Damayant? were a flock of bar-headed geese (Anser indicus). However as Julia Leslie so ably demonstrates in her article 'A Bird Bereaved', and as indicated in Dominic's earlier post to this list, ha?sa is also a generic term for a large water bird, and that the context of the text and the details of habit and appearance must be considered carefully before making an identification. In the literary context of the ha?sasa?de?a, what bird would R?ma choose as his messenger to S?t?? Surely only the most striking and beautiful bird would do. As cranes stand at almost six foot tall and fit the descriptions of habit and appearance in the text they seem to be the strongest contenders. I would be interested to know of any other close readings of occurrences of birds in Sanskrit literature such as Julia Leslie's of Valm?ki. With thanks, Oliver Fallon http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volume-v-78.html From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Thu Apr 16 06:58:46 2009 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 09 08:58:46 +0200 Subject: Fwd: Zeitschriften der DMG digital Message-ID: <161227085835.23782.14269985482394130102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, The periodicals published by the "Deutsche Morgenlaendische Gesellschaft" (DMG -- German Oriental Society) have now been digitized. The resulting digital collection comprises 132.000 images. Tables of contents of all volumes are catalogued into the periodical contents database of the Middle East Virtual Library MENALIB - MENAcontents. Also, the contents of all volumes can be retrieved through a fulltext search. Access to the collection is open without any restrictions. The digital images are catalogued into databases of the Deutsche Nationalbibliothek (DNB -German National Library) the Zentrales Verzeichnis Digitalisierter Drucke (ZVDD - Central Directory of Digitzed Imprints) and DigiZeitschriften. http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg http://www.dmg-web.de/?page=23 Best, Roland Steiner ----- Weitergeleitete Nachricht von pohlus at INDOLOGIE.UNI-HALLE.DE ----- Datum: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:46:23 +0200 Von: Andreas Pohlus Antwort an: Informationsaustausch der deutschsprachigen Indologie Betreff: Zeitschriften der DMG digital An: INDOLOGIE at LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Liebe Listenteilnehmer, im Rahmen eines von der DFG gef?rderten Projekts der Universit?ts- und Landesbibliothek Sachsen-Anhalt an der Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg wurden die von der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft publizierten Zeitschriften in einem Umfang von etwa 132.000 Seiten digitalisiert und f?r die Suche in den Inhaltsverzeichnissen der B?nde wie auch in den Volltexten der enthaltenen Beitr?ge erschlossen. Es handelt sich um die folgenden Zeitschriften: Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft (ZDMG). Leipzig: Brockhaus; Wiesbaden: Steiner; Harrassowitz, 1.1847 - 155.2005 (ISSN: 0341-0137) und Supplementa I - XI (DOT) Zeitschrift f?r Assyriologie und verwandte Gebiete: Fachzeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft. Berlin: de Gruyter, 1.1886 - 34.1922; N.F. 1=35.1923/1924 - 10=44.1938 Zeitschrift f?r Indologie und Iranistik, hrsg. im Auftrag der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft. Leipzig: Brockhaus [in Komm.], 1.1922 - 10.1935/1936; damit Erscheinen eingestellt (ISSN: 0259-7918) Zeitschrift f?r Semitistik und verwandte Gebiete, hrsg. im Auftrag der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft. Leipzig: Brockhaus, 1.1922 - 10.1935; damit Erscheinen eingestellt (ISSN: 0259-7934) Die elektronischen Exemplare der Zeitschriften der DMG bilden einen ersten umfangreicheren Bestand des Volltextrepositoriums MENAdoc der ULB Halle, SSG Vorderer Orient (http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg; http://www.dmg-web.de/?page=23) und sind frei zug?nglich. Beste Gr??e, A. Pohlus ----- Ende der weitergeleiteten Nachricht ----- From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Thu Apr 16 13:39:53 2009 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 09 09:39:53 -0400 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=B4a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085846.23782.7649957531114477633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The notion of a hamsa as a swan was completely discussed a year or so ago on the Indo-european research loist and in that context I put up a brief visual history of Hamsa on our website at: http://huntingtonarchive.osu.edu/Hamsa/hamsa%20index.html Ravi Varma was simply influenced by the British vision of hasma as swan ("How could a little goose be a devine bird when there are swans?" I was once asked by a British "scholar" who shall go nameless) if you search Google for Anser indicua you will find that the bird is question is a very pretty and animated creature that might well inspire a sense of divinity. for example see: http://wildaboutbritain.org/drupal610/sites/default/files/images/birds/Bar-headed%20Goose%20-%20Anser%20indicus.jpg John On Apr 16, 2009, at 5:21 AM, Christophe Vielle wrote: > It is a real "swan" messenger that Raja Ravi Varma painted in his > famous "Ha.msa-Damayantii" (1899) now displayed in the Sri Chitra > Art Gallery, Tiruvanantapuram. See at: > http://www.temple-trees.com/ravivarma/urrvprints.asp?printtype=2&pg=2 > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > >> I expect you are familiar with this book: >> >> Vogel, J. P., 1962, The Goose in Indian Literature and Art. >> Memoirs of the Kern Institute No. II. E. J. Brill, Leiden. >> >> According to my notes, Vogel (good name?) identified haMsa and >> rAjahaMsa with a mainly white form of the Indian goose (Anser >> indicus), and kalahaMsa with the greylag goose (Anser anser). >> >> Valerie J Roebuck >> >> At 7:12 am -0700 15/4/09, Oliver Fallon wrote: >>> I would like some help on the identity of the ra?jaha?sa which is >>> the subject of Veda?ntades?ika's Ha?sasa?des?a. He tells us little >>> of the bird except that he repeatedly stresses that it is a pure >>> white water bird and that it has a beautiful call as it flies to >>> which that of the peacock is unfavourably compared. I was first >>> provoked into considering that this is not a goose by a comment in >>> Shastriar's 1902 Madras edition of the poem, where he says: >>> "ra?jaha?sa is a species of swan with red legs and bills (sic). >>> Compare 'ra?jaha?sa?s tu te ca?cucaranair lohitais si?ta??'" > > > -- > > http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be > > > -- > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 846562921) is spam: > Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=846562921&m=ecbe428d483a > Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=846562921&m=ecbe428d483a > Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=846562921&m=ecbe428d483a > ------------------------------------------------------ > END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Thu Apr 16 09:21:06 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 09 11:21:06 +0200 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des=?iso-8859-1?Q?=B4a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085839.23782.3798203815560989587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is a real "swan" messenger that Raja Ravi Varma painted in his famous "Ha.msa-Damayantii" (1899) now displayed in the Sri Chitra Art Gallery, Tiruvanantapuram. See at: http://www.temple-trees.com/ravivarma/urrvprints.asp?printtype=2&pg=2 Best wishes, Christophe Vielle >I expect you are familiar with this book: > >Vogel, J. P., 1962, The Goose in Indian >Literature and Art. Memoirs of the Kern >Institute No. II. E. J. Brill, Leiden. > >According to my notes, Vogel (good name?) >identified haMsa and rAjahaMsa with a mainly >white form of the Indian goose (Anser indicus), >and kalahaMsa with the greylag goose (Anser >anser). > >Valerie J Roebuck > >At 7:12 am -0700 15/4/09, Oliver Fallon wrote: >>I would like some help on the identity of the >>ra?jaha?sa which is the subject of >>Veda?ntades?ika's Ha?sasa?des?a. He tells us >>little of the bird except that he repeatedly >>stresses that it is a pure white water bird and >>that it has a beautiful call as it flies to >>which that of the peacock is unfavourably >>compared. I was first provoked into considering >>that this is not a goose by a comment in >>Shastriar's 1902 Madras edition of the poem, >>where he says: "ra?jaha?sa is a species of swan >>with red legs and bills (sic). Compare >>'ra?jaha?sa?s tu te ca?cucaranair lohitais >>si?ta??'" -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Thu Apr 16 11:16:25 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 09 13:16:25 +0200 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des=?iso-8859-1?Q?=B4a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085842.23782.11132540570115004686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the logo of the Ramakrishna Mission a real swan also figures, not a goose. Apparently in the nineteenth century one regarded the hansa as a swan. The latter perhaps as an allusion to the image of the swan that will sing its most beautiful song when it feels it is going to die; a famous image found in Plato's Phaedo, 84e-85b? The idea in Phaedo is that Socrates as a philosopher knows he is going to die and expects to be united with the God Apollo. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Christophe Vielle Verzonden: donderdag 16 april 2009 11:21 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a It is a real "swan" messenger that Raja Ravi Varma painted in his famous "Ha.msa-Damayantii" (1899) now displayed in the Sri Chitra Art Gallery, Tiruvanantapuram. See at: http://www.temple-trees.com/ravivarma/urrvprints.asp?printtype=2&pg=2 Best wishes, Christophe Vielle >I expect you are familiar with this book: > >Vogel, J. P., 1962, The Goose in Indian >Literature and Art. Memoirs of the Kern >Institute No. II. E. J. Brill, Leiden. > >According to my notes, Vogel (good name?) >identified haMsa and rAjahaMsa with a mainly >white form of the Indian goose (Anser indicus), >and kalahaMsa with the greylag goose (Anser >anser). > >Valerie J Roebuck > >At 7:12 am -0700 15/4/09, Oliver Fallon wrote: >>I would like some help on the identity of the >>ra?jaha?sa which is the subject of >>Veda?ntades?ika's Ha?sasa?des?a. He tells us >>little of the bird except that he repeatedly >>stresses that it is a pure white water bird and >>that it has a beautiful call as it flies to >>which that of the peacock is unfavourably >>compared. I was first provoked into considering >>that this is not a goose by a comment in >>Shastriar's 1902 Madras edition of the poem, >>where he says: "ra?jaha?sa is a species of swan >>with red legs and bills (sic). Compare >>'ra?jaha?sa?s tu te ca?cucaranair lohitais >>si?ta??'" -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Apr 16 12:20:47 2009 From: kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE (=?utf-8?Q?petra_kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 09 14:20:47 +0200 Subject: amitabha In-Reply-To: <1239712733.7545.33.camel@vaio> Message-ID: <161227085844.23782.7259614595408440909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to all who helped me with references, P. Kieffer-P?lz ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Thu Apr 16 15:39:49 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 09 17:39:49 +0200 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des=?iso-8859-1?Q?=B4a?= In-Reply-To: <970F3E83-A10B-405E-A8E7-18792790CDEE@osu.edu> Message-ID: <161227085848.23782.12067491315955110118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That's why I suggested that the elevatedness of the swan for hansa may have been inspired by readings of Plato's Phaedo. Thank you anyway for the interesting references. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens John C. Huntington Verzonden: donderdag 16 april 2009 15:40 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a The notion of a hamsa as a swan was completely discussed a year or so ago on the Indo-european research loist and in that context I put up a brief visual history of Hamsa on our website at: http://huntingtonarchive.osu.edu/Hamsa/hamsa%20index.html Ravi Varma was simply influenced by the British vision of hasma as swan ("How could a little goose be a devine bird when there are swans?" I was once asked by a British "scholar" who shall go nameless) if you search Google for Anser indicua you will find that the bird is question is a very pretty and animated creature that might well inspire a sense of divinity. for example see: http://wildaboutbritain.org/drupal610/sites/default/files/images/birds/Bar-h eaded%20Goose%20-%20Anser%20indicus.jpg John On Apr 16, 2009, at 5:21 AM, Christophe Vielle wrote: > It is a real "swan" messenger that Raja Ravi Varma painted in his > famous "Ha.msa-Damayantii" (1899) now displayed in the Sri Chitra > Art Gallery, Tiruvanantapuram. See at: > http://www.temple-trees.com/ravivarma/urrvprints.asp?printtype=2&pg=2 > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > >> I expect you are familiar with this book: >> >> Vogel, J. P., 1962, The Goose in Indian Literature and Art. >> Memoirs of the Kern Institute No. II. E. J. Brill, Leiden. >> >> According to my notes, Vogel (good name?) identified haMsa and >> rAjahaMsa with a mainly white form of the Indian goose (Anser >> indicus), and kalahaMsa with the greylag goose (Anser anser). >> >> Valerie J Roebuck >> >> At 7:12 am -0700 15/4/09, Oliver Fallon wrote: >>> I would like some help on the identity of the ra?jaha?sa which is >>> the subject of Veda?ntades?ika's Ha?sasa?des?a. He tells us little >>> of the bird except that he repeatedly stresses that it is a pure >>> white water bird and that it has a beautiful call as it flies to >>> which that of the peacock is unfavourably compared. I was first >>> provoked into considering that this is not a goose by a comment in >>> Shastriar's 1902 Madras edition of the poem, where he says: >>> "ra?jaha?sa is a species of swan with red legs and bills (sic). >>> Compare 'ra?jaha?sa?s tu te ca?cucaranair lohitais si?ta??'" > > > -- > > http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be > > > -- > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 846562921) is spam: > Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=846562921&m=ecbe428d483a > Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=846562921&m=ecbe428d483a > Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=846562921&m=ecbe428d483a > ------------------------------------------------------ > END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 16 18:43:33 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 09 20:43:33 +0200 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: <20090416085846.m10b03ic080oo0oo@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: <161227085850.23782.1771158044366897413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Roland (and interested others), This is wonderful. But although maybe I missed it, there does not seem to be a way to download complete articles, only to view page by page. Or....? Best, Jonathan 2009/4/16 Roland Steiner > Dear colleagues, > > The periodicals published by the "Deutsche Morgenlaendische Gesellschaft" > (DMG -- German Oriental Society) have now been digitized. The resulting > digital collection comprises 132.000 images. Tables of contents of all > volumes are catalogued into the periodical contents database of the Middle > East Virtual Library MENALIB - MENAcontents. Also, the contents of all > volumes can be retrieved through a fulltext search. Access to the collection > is open without any restrictions. The digital images are catalogued into > databases of the Deutsche Nationalbibliothek (DNB -German National Library) > the Zentrales Verzeichnis Digitalisierter Drucke (ZVDD - Central Directory > of Digitzed Imprints) and DigiZeitschriften. > > http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg > http://www.dmg-web.de/?page=23 > > Best, > Roland Steiner > > ----- Weitergeleitete Nachricht von pohlus at INDOLOGIE.UNI-HALLE.DE ----- > Datum: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:46:23 +0200 > Von: Andreas Pohlus > Antwort an: Informationsaustausch der deutschsprachigen Indologie < > INDOLOGIE at LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE> > Betreff: Zeitschriften der DMG digital > An: INDOLOGIE at LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE > > Liebe Listenteilnehmer, > > im Rahmen eines von der DFG gef?rderten Projekts der Universit?ts- und > Landesbibliothek Sachsen-Anhalt an der Martin-Luther-Universit?t > Halle-Wittenberg wurden die von der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft > publizierten Zeitschriften in einem Umfang von etwa 132.000 Seiten > digitalisiert und f?r die Suche in den Inhaltsverzeichnissen der B?nde wie > auch in den Volltexten der enthaltenen Beitr?ge erschlossen. Es handelt sich > um die folgenden Zeitschriften: > > Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft (ZDMG). Leipzig: > Brockhaus; Wiesbaden: Steiner; Harrassowitz, 1.1847 - 155.2005 (ISSN: > 0341-0137) und Supplementa I - XI (DOT) > Zeitschrift f?r Assyriologie und verwandte Gebiete: Fachzeitschrift der > Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft. Berlin: de Gruyter, 1.1886 - > 34.1922; N.F. 1=35.1923/1924 - 10=44.1938 > Zeitschrift f?r Indologie und Iranistik, hrsg. im Auftrag der Deutschen > Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft. Leipzig: Brockhaus [in Komm.], 1.1922 - > 10.1935/1936; damit Erscheinen eingestellt (ISSN: 0259-7918) > Zeitschrift f?r Semitistik und verwandte Gebiete, hrsg. im Auftrag der > Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft. Leipzig: Brockhaus, 1.1922 - > 10.1935; damit Erscheinen eingestellt (ISSN: 0259-7934) > > Die elektronischen Exemplare der Zeitschriften der DMG bilden einen ersten > umfangreicheren Bestand des Volltextrepositoriums MENAdoc der ULB Halle, SSG > Vorderer Orient (http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg; > http://www.dmg-web.de/?page=23) und sind frei zug?nglich. > > Beste Gr??e, > A. Pohlus > > ----- Ende der weitergeleiteten Nachricht ----- > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Fri Apr 17 02:36:33 2009 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 09 22:36:33 -0400 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=B4a?= In-Reply-To: <9A00CAC9874A4A5AA6BC43016314AE95@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227085852.23782.17057598049645351266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Historically it is not a Swan but the Anser Indicus John On Apr 16, 2009, at 7:16 AM, victor van Bijlert wrote: > In the logo of the Ramakrishna Mission a real swan also figures, not a > goose. Apparently in the nineteenth century one regarded the hansa > as a > swan. The latter perhaps as an allusion to the image of the swan > that will > sing its most beautiful song when it feels it is going to die; a > famous > image found in Plato's Phaedo, 84e-85b? The idea in Phaedo is that > Socrates > as a philosopher knows he is going to die and expects to be united > with the > God Apollo. > Victor van Bijlert > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Christophe > Vielle > Verzonden: donderdag 16 april 2009 11:21 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a > > It is a real "swan" messenger that Raja Ravi > Varma painted in his famous "Ha.msa-Damayantii" > (1899) now displayed in the Sri Chitra Art > Gallery, Tiruvanantapuram. See at: > http://www.temple-trees.com/ravivarma/urrvprints.asp?printtype=2&pg=2 > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > >> I expect you are familiar with this book: >> >> Vogel, J. P., 1962, The Goose in Indian >> Literature and Art. Memoirs of the Kern >> Institute No. II. E. J. Brill, Leiden. >> >> According to my notes, Vogel (good name?) >> identified haMsa and rAjahaMsa with a mainly >> white form of the Indian goose (Anser indicus), >> and kalahaMsa with the greylag goose (Anser >> anser). >> >> Valerie J Roebuck >> >> At 7:12 am -0700 15/4/09, Oliver Fallon wrote: >>> I would like some help on the identity of the >>> ra?jaha?sa which is the subject of >>> Veda?ntades?ika's Ha?sasa?des?a. He tells us >>> little of the bird except that he repeatedly >>> stresses that it is a pure white water bird and >>> that it has a beautiful call as it flies to >>> which that of the peacock is unfavourably >>> compared. I was first provoked into considering >>> that this is not a goose by a comment in >>> Shastriar's 1902 Madras edition of the poem, >>> where he says: "ra?jaha?sa is a species of swan >>> with red legs and bills (sic). Compare >>> 'ra?jaha?sa?s tu te ca?cucaranair lohitais >>> si?ta??'" > > > -- > > http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be > > > -- > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 846616205) is spam: > Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 > Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 > Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 > ------------------------------------------------------ > END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Apr 17 14:39:13 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 10:39:13 -0400 Subject: New Publication "The Indian Night, Sleep and Dreams in Indian Culture" Message-ID: <161227085878.23782.9240212949293243314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I read a scholarly work on the history of sleep and nighttime activities in early modern and modern Western Europe, whose title I can't seem to recall or retrieve. It said that people used to talk about first and second sleep, and a period of waking in between, in which people might inspect the livestock, make love, do chores, say prayers, or other activities. Manuals of devotion included prayers specifically for this period. (On might also wonder if the monastic custom of rising in the middle of the night for prayers was based on this. And some of the Psalms give me the impression middle of the night prayers were not unknown to the ancient Jews.) On the other hand, the author notes that the evidence for this routine and accepted period of waking comes from people who went to bed pretty soon after dark. Diaries of people of the upper strata who routinely stayed up much later, such as Pepys and Boswell, never mention it. The author thinks that with electricity and electronic entertainment the pattern has shifted towards the second one. Do the papers mention any such thing in India? One might wonder whether in view of the Indian habit of going to bed fairly late, especially in the hot season, and having a substantial nap in the afternoon, India might lean towards the second pattern. If anyone is familiar with the book I am referring to I'd appreciate the reference. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Apr 17 14:58:12 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 10:58:12 -0400 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des=?UTF-8?Q?=CC=81a?= Message-ID: <161227085880.23782.6897303011389567026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I suspect a factor in the soul being compared to it, and the sannyasis being called paramahaMsa, is that it flies very high and also fast and without stop, seeming to make it almost completely detached from the earth. The Wikipedia article Bar-Headed Goose says: "The Bar-headed Goose is one of the world's highest flying birds, having been seen at up to 10175 m (33,382 feet). It has a slightly larger wing area for its weight than other geese and it is believed this helps the goose to fly high.[2] Studies have found that they breathe more efficiently under low oxygen conditions and are able to reduce heat loss.[3] The haemoglobin of their blood has a higher oxygen affinity than that of other geese.[4] The Bar-headed Goose migrates over the Himalayas to spend the winter in India, Assam, Northern Burma and the wetlands of Pakistan. It migrates up to Magadi wetlands of Gadag district of Karnataka in the southern part of India. The winter habitat of the Bar-headed Goose is on cultivation where it feeds on barley, rice and wheat, and may damage crops. The bird is can fly the 1000-mile migration route in just one day as it is able to fly in jet stream. [1]" Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >>> victor van Bijlert 4/17/2009 5:31:55 AM >>> I am aware of the fact that the hamsa is the Anser Indicus, a kind of goose. Could anyone explain why the hamsa has been used as a metaphor of a special type of world-renouncer, the socalled paramahamsa? Is there anything in the behaviour of the bird that could have led to calling certain renouncers paramahamsa's? I know this is sidetracking, but it seems relevant in connection with the discussion of the bird hamsa. Victor From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Apr 17 15:14:48 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 11:14:48 -0400 Subject: New Publication "The Indian Night, Sleep and Dreams in Indian Culture" Message-ID: <161227085885.23782.12168749205504139565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Whitney, Thank you very much. Allen >>> Whitney Cox 4/17/2009 11:03:36 AM >>> Dear Allen, As it happens, you mentioned the book in an earlier post on this list: Ekirch, A. Roger, 1950- At day's close : night in times past New York : Norton, c2005. See t.c. at < http://www.loc.gov/catdir/toc/ecip057/2005002784.html >. If you'd like to see what you said about it before: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0804&L=INDOLOGY&P=R3142&I=-3 Cheers, wc From slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU Fri Apr 17 16:16:28 2009 From: slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU (Steven Lindquist) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 11:16:28 -0500 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: <1Luq6d-1Lj7Gy0@fwd11.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085897.23782.8817874152140565259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I use a Mac, but this must be the same or very similar on a PC. I can right-click on each page and save each page as an image file. Then, I can print each page separately from there (and most image programs can automatically scale the image to your paper size). Of course, this is cumbersome (but not obnoxiously so, especially if you have a fast internet connection). For someone like me who doesn't have easy access to this journal (only through inter-library loan or a 4-5 hour drive), I think this free resource is fabulous and it strikes me as completely reasonable that they do not allow downloads. Best, Steven -- Steven Lindquist, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Religious Studies Southern Methodist University faculty.smu.edu/slindqui -- On Apr 17, 2009, at 10:35 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: > The MENALIB homepage ( http://www.menalib.de/) invites questions and > suggestions concerning MENALIB pages to Dr. Lutz Wiederhold (lutz.wiederhold at bibliothek.uni-halle.de > ). > > Best, > > WS > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Dominik Wujastyk" schrieb: >> I've discovered that by shrinking the on-screen display and then >> magnifying it slightly, using the on-screen buttons, one can >> produce an >> image that will print out on an A4 page. It's very fiddly, but can be >> done. >> >> -- >> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >> >> long term email address: mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 17 Apr 2009, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >> >>> It looks the same to me, Jonathan. And I haven't found an easy way >>> to print >>> out pages, even one-by-one (they're too big). One has to sit and >>> read >>> on-screen, which rapidly becomes unbearable. >>> >>> [If I've missed some crucial button, please tell me!] >>> >>> While it is absolutely wonderful to have the ZDMG online, the >>> project is >>> unfortunately undermined by its limited implementation, and to >>> such a degree >>> that it is not as useful as one might at first have hoped. >>> >>> This system has been designed "conservatively", i.e., more with a >>> view to >>> preventing copyright theft than with helping scholars do their >>> research. >>> >>> I hope that the policies may be revised in future to enable >>> article-length >>> pieces to be downloaded as PDF or djvu files and printed out for >>> serious >>> reading. >>> >>> Best, >>> Dominik >>> >>> >> > > > --------------------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Fri Apr 17 09:31:55 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 11:31:55 +0200 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des=?iso-8859-1?Q?=B4a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085855.23782.12108265207025382608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am aware of the fact that the hamsa is the Anser Indicus, a kind of goose. Could anyone explain why the hamsa has been used as a metaphor of a special type of world-renouncer, the socalled paramahamsa? Is there anything in the behaviour of the bird that could have led to calling certain renouncers paramahamsa's? I know this is sidetracking, but it seems relevant in connection with the discussion of the bird hamsa. Victor -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens John C. Huntington Verzonden: vrijdag 17 april 2009 4:37 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a Historically it is not a Swan but the Anser Indicus John On Apr 16, 2009, at 7:16 AM, victor van Bijlert wrote: > In the logo of the Ramakrishna Mission a real swan also figures, not a > goose. Apparently in the nineteenth century one regarded the hansa > as a > swan. The latter perhaps as an allusion to the image of the swan > that will > sing its most beautiful song when it feels it is going to die; a > famous > image found in Plato's Phaedo, 84e-85b? The idea in Phaedo is that > Socrates > as a philosopher knows he is going to die and expects to be united > with the > God Apollo. > Victor van Bijlert > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Christophe > Vielle > Verzonden: donderdag 16 april 2009 11:21 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a > > It is a real "swan" messenger that Raja Ravi > Varma painted in his famous "Ha.msa-Damayantii" > (1899) now displayed in the Sri Chitra Art > Gallery, Tiruvanantapuram. See at: > http://www.temple-trees.com/ravivarma/urrvprints.asp?printtype=2&pg=2 > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > >> I expect you are familiar with this book: >> >> Vogel, J. P., 1962, The Goose in Indian >> Literature and Art. Memoirs of the Kern >> Institute No. II. E. J. Brill, Leiden. >> >> According to my notes, Vogel (good name?) >> identified haMsa and rAjahaMsa with a mainly >> white form of the Indian goose (Anser indicus), >> and kalahaMsa with the greylag goose (Anser >> anser). >> >> Valerie J Roebuck >> >> At 7:12 am -0700 15/4/09, Oliver Fallon wrote: >>> I would like some help on the identity of the >>> ra?jaha?sa which is the subject of >>> Veda?ntades?ika's Ha?sasa?des?a. He tells us >>> little of the bird except that he repeatedly >>> stresses that it is a pure white water bird and >>> that it has a beautiful call as it flies to >>> which that of the peacock is unfavourably >>> compared. I was first provoked into considering >>> that this is not a goose by a comment in >>> Shastriar's 1902 Madras edition of the poem, >>> where he says: "ra?jaha?sa is a species of swan >>> with red legs and bills (sic). Compare >>> 'ra?jaha?sa?s tu te ca?cucaranair lohitais >>> si?ta??'" > > > -- > > http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be > > > -- > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 846616205) is spam: > Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 > Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 > Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 > ------------------------------------------------------ > END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > From J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK Fri Apr 17 10:41:33 2009 From: J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK (J L Brockington) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 11:41:33 +0100 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des=?iso-8859-1?Q?=B4a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085863.23782.16517868174114534298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Christophe's remarks about the ha?sa are very much to the point but this discussion seems to have lost sight of the original query, which was about the r?jaha?sa.? A priori, we might expect some differentiation to be involved.? In discussing specifically the identities of the fauna of the R?m?ya?a, I long ago noted about the r?jaha?sa: "either synonymous with /ha?sa /or more probably Phoenicopterus roseus Pallas, flamingo" with a footnote "The latter identification makes much more appropriate Kaikey?'s comparison of the hunchbacked Manthar? with a /r?jaha?s?/ (2.9.33). On the other hand, a fourth stage passage (3.1074* pairs a /r?jaha?sa/ and a /ha?s?./" (/Righteous R?ma/ p.95). Yours John Brockington Professor J. L. Brockington Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies Asian Studies 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW ----- Message from christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE --------- Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:13:10 +0200 From: Christophe Vielle Subject: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Without being a specialist, the ha.msa seems rather to be connected > with yoga in this case : the ha.msa as migrant bird being in some yoga > texts a metaphor of the the Soul escaping from the sa.msaara (see > Ha.msa-Up 1.5, K.surikaa-Up 1.22), with also puns on the repetition of > the word "ha.msa" (breathing in making "ham" and out "sa", > Dhyaanabindu-Up 1.62, or ha.msa as the reverse of so'ham). The > para-ha.msa would be the one who has attained perpetual mukti from the > nets of living. I rely here on the writings of the late Jean Varenne, > Aux sources du yoga, Paris, 1989, pp. 68-70, and Upanishads du yoga, > Paris, 1971, pp. 24-25, 110-11, 163. > There probably exist more complete studies on the subject. > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > > >> I am aware of the fact that the hamsa is the Anser Indicus, a kind of goose. >> Could anyone explain why the hamsa has been used as a metaphor of a special >> type of world-renouncer, the socalled paramahamsa? Is there anything in the >> behaviour of the bird that could have led to calling certain renouncers >> paramahamsa's? I know this is sidetracking, but it seems relevant in >> connection with the discussion of the bird hamsa. >> >> Victor > > http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be ----- End message from christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE ----- -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Fri Apr 17 10:13:10 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 12:13:10 +0200 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des=?iso-8859-1?Q?=B4a?= In-Reply-To: <7DEC8AF4189F4723B0AD5288D92E0F88@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227085859.23782.12654660092283621774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Without being a specialist, the ha.msa seems rather to be connected with yoga in this case : the ha.msa as migrant bird being in some yoga texts a metaphor of the the Soul escaping from the sa.msaara (see Ha.msa-Up 1.5, K.surikaa-Up 1.22), with also puns on the repetition of the word "ha.msa" (breathing in making "ham" and out "sa", Dhyaanabindu-Up 1.62, or ha.msa as the reverse of so'ham). The para-ha.msa would be the one who has attained perpetual mukti from the nets of living. I rely here on the writings of the late Jean Varenne, Aux sources du yoga, Paris, 1989, pp. 68-70, and Upanishads du yoga, Paris, 1971, pp. 24-25, 110-11, 163. There probably exist more complete studies on the subject. Best wishes, Christophe Vielle >I am aware of the fact that the hamsa is the Anser Indicus, a kind of goose. >Could anyone explain why the hamsa has been used as a metaphor of a special >type of world-renouncer, the socalled paramahamsa? Is there anything in the >behaviour of the bird that could have led to calling certain renouncers >paramahamsa's? I know this is sidetracking, but it seems relevant in >connection with the discussion of the bird hamsa. > >Victor -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Fri Apr 17 10:55:40 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 12:55:40 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_rAjahaMsa_in_the_ha=3Fsasa=3Fdes_=C2=B4a?= In-Reply-To: <61BBB799-1750-47CA-8509-E2ACD7E8D340@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227085865.23782.8967075628145313875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am grateful for the references, also the ones from the Yoga Upanishads. But they do not explain to me why this bird was selected as a model of a high type of (yogic performer? and) world-renouncer. But already many thanks Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Michael Slouber Verzonden: vrijdag 17 april 2009 11:54 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a It's the traditional notion of the ha?sa's viveka that is the source of comparison: n?rak??raviveka? ca ha?so vetti na c?para? (Garu?apur??a 3,17.48) Other examples are abundant. Michael Slouber PhD Candidate UC Berkeley On Apr 17, 2009, at 3:16 PM, victor van Bijlert wrote: > I am aware of the fact that the hamsa is the Anser Indicus, a kind > of goose. > Could anyone explain why the hamsa has been used as a metaphor of a > special > type of world-renouncer, the socalled paramahamsa? Is there anything > in the > behaviour of the bird that could have led to calling certain > renouncers > paramahamsa's? I know this is sidetracking, but it seems relevant in > connection with the discussion of the bird hamsa. > > Victor > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens John C. > Huntington > Verzonden: vrijdag 17 april 2009 4:37 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a > > Historically it is not a Swan but the Anser Indicus > > John > > > On Apr 16, 2009, at 7:16 AM, victor van Bijlert wrote: > >> In the logo of the Ramakrishna Mission a real swan also figures, >> not a >> goose. Apparently in the nineteenth century one regarded the hansa >> as a >> swan. The latter perhaps as an allusion to the image of the swan >> that will >> sing its most beautiful song when it feels it is going to die; a >> famous >> image found in Plato's Phaedo, 84e-85b? The idea in Phaedo is that >> Socrates >> as a philosopher knows he is going to die and expects to be united >> with the >> God Apollo. >> Victor van Bijlert >> >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Christophe >> Vielle >> Verzonden: donderdag 16 april 2009 11:21 >> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a >> >> It is a real "swan" messenger that Raja Ravi >> Varma painted in his famous "Ha.msa-Damayantii" >> (1899) now displayed in the Sri Chitra Art >> Gallery, Tiruvanantapuram. See at: >> http://www.temple-trees.com/ravivarma/urrvprints.asp?printtype=2&pg=2 >> Best wishes, >> Christophe Vielle >> >>> I expect you are familiar with this book: >>> >>> Vogel, J. P., 1962, The Goose in Indian >>> Literature and Art. Memoirs of the Kern >>> Institute No. II. E. J. Brill, Leiden. >>> >>> According to my notes, Vogel (good name?) >>> identified haMsa and rAjahaMsa with a mainly >>> white form of the Indian goose (Anser indicus), >>> and kalahaMsa with the greylag goose (Anser >>> anser). >>> >>> Valerie J Roebuck >>> >>> At 7:12 am -0700 15/4/09, Oliver Fallon wrote: >>>> I would like some help on the identity of the >>>> ra?jaha?sa which is the subject of >>>> Veda?ntades?ika's Ha?sasa?des?a. He tells us >>>> little of the bird except that he repeatedly >>>> stresses that it is a pure white water bird and >>>> that it has a beautiful call as it flies to >>>> which that of the peacock is unfavourably >>>> compared. I was first provoked into considering >>>> that this is not a goose by a comment in >>>> Shastriar's 1902 Madras edition of the poem, >>>> where he says: "ra?jaha?sa is a species of swan >>>> with red legs and bills (sic). Compare >>>> 'ra?jaha?sa?s tu te ca?cucaranair lohitais >>>> si?ta??'" >> >> >> -- >> >> http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be >> >> >> -- >> BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 846616205) is spam: >> Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 >> Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 >> Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >> From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Fri Apr 17 12:06:56 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 14:06:56 +0200 Subject: ha.msa in para-ha.msa and ha.msa-samde/sa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085868.23782.421967180717205592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hoping not to "grind flour" too much, I would say that the double ha.msa's quality of travelling freely the world and distinguishing milk mixed with water (cf. Slouber's post), as reminded in Puur.nasarasvatii Ha.msa-sa.mde/sa (9) : pauna.hpu.nyaad bhuvanam akhila.m bhraamyata.h svairav.rtte.h /saktasyoccair api samudite k.siiraniire vivektum | maarga.m taavanmahita mahataa.m notsahe te pravaktu.m j?aataj?aana.m na khalu sudhiyaa.m tu.s.taye pi.s.tape.sa.h || is enough for explaining why the name of this migrating and vivekin bird, as "parama" denotes a all-discriminating and super-liberated ascetic (=? in the poem the su-dhii to whom the path, maargam, to liberation is already known, j?aataj?aanam). >I am grateful for the references, also the ones >from the Yoga Upanishads. But they do not >explain to me why this bird was selected as a >model of a high type of (yogic performer? and) >world-renouncer. >But already many thanks >Victor van Bijlert >Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:13:10 +0200 >From: Christophe Vielle >Subject: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a > > >Without being a specialist, the ha.msa seems >rather to be connected with yoga in this case : >the ha.msa as migrant bird being in some yoga >texts a metaphor of the the Soul escaping from >the sa.msaara (see Ha.msa-Up 1.5, K.surikaa-Up >1.22), with also puns on the repetition of the >word "ha.msa" (breathing in making "ham" and out >"sa", Dhyaanabindu-Up 1.62, or ha.msa as the >reverse of so'ham). The parama-ha.msa would be >the one who has attained perpetual mukti from >the nets of living. I rely here on the writings >of the late Jean Varenne, Aux sources du yoga, >Paris, 1989, pp. 68-70, and Upanishads du yoga, >Paris, 1971, pp. 24-25, 110-11, 163. >There probably exist more complete studies on the subject. >Best wishes, >Christophe Vielle > >-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Michael Slouber >Verzonden: vrijdag 17 april 2009 11:54 >Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha.msasa.mde/sa > >It's the traditional notion of the ha.msa's viveka that is the source >of comparison: > >n?rak.s?raviveka.m ca ha.mso vetti na c?para? >(Garu.dapur?.na 3,17.48) > >Other examples are abundant. > >Michael Slouber >PhD Candidate >UC Berkeley > > > >On Apr 17, 2009, at 3:16 PM, victor van Bijlert wrote: > >> I am aware of the fact that the hamsa is the Anser Indicus, a kind >> of goose. >> Could anyone explain why the hamsa has been used as a metaphor of a >> special >> type of world-renouncer, the socalled paramahamsa? Is there anything >> in the >> behaviour of the bird that could have led to calling certain >> renouncers >> paramahamsa's? I know this is sidetracking, but it seems relevant in >> connection with the discussion of the bird hamsa. >> >> Victor >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens John C. >> Huntington >> Verzonden: vrijdag 17 april 2009 4:37 >> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a >> >> Historically it is not a Swan but the Anser Indicus >> >> John >> >> >> On Apr 16, 2009, at 7:16 AM, victor van Bijlert wrote: >> >>> In the logo of the Ramakrishna Mission a real swan also figures, >>> not a >>> goose. Apparently in the nineteenth century one regarded the hansa >>> as a >>> swan. The latter perhaps as an allusion to the image of the swan >>> that will >>> sing its most beautiful song when it feels it is going to die; a >>> famous >>> image found in Plato's Phaedo, 84e-85b? The idea in Phaedo is that >>> Socrates >>> as a philosopher knows he is going to die and expects to be united >>> with the >>> God Apollo. >>> Victor van Bijlert >>> >>> >>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >>> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Christophe >>> Vielle >>> Verzonden: donderdag 16 april 2009 11:21 >>> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a > >> >>> It is a real "swan" messenger that Raja Ravi >>> Varma painted in his famous "Ha.msa-Damayantii" >>> (1899) now displayed in the Sri Chitra Art >>> Gallery, Tiruvanantapuram. See at: >>> http://www.temple-trees.com/ravivarma/urrvprints.asp?printtype=2&pg=2 >>> Best wishes, >>> Christophe Vielle >>> >>>> I expect you are familiar with this book: >>>> >>>> Vogel, J. P., 1962, The Goose in Indian >>>> Literature and Art. Memoirs of the Kern >>>> Institute No. II. E. J. Brill, Leiden. >>>> >>>> According to my notes, Vogel (good name?) >>>> identified haMsa and rAjahaMsa with a mainly >>>> white form of the Indian goose (Anser indicus), >>>> and kalahaMsa with the greylag goose (Anser >>>> anser). >>>> >>>> Valerie J Roebuck >>>> >>>> At 7:12 am -0700 15/4/09, Oliver Fallon wrote: >>>>> I would like some help on the identity of the >>>>> ra?jaha?sa which is the subject of >>>>> Veda?ntades?ika's Ha?sasa?des?a. He tells us >>>>> little of the bird except that he repeatedly >>>>> stresses that it is a pure white water bird and >>>>> that it has a beautiful call as it flies to >>>>> which that of the peacock is unfavourably >>>>> compared. I was first provoked into considering >>>>> that this is not a goose by a comment in >>>>> Shastriar's 1902 Madras edition of the poem, >>>>> where he says: "ra?jaha?sa is a species of swan >>>>> with red legs and bills (sic). Compare >>>>> 'ra?jaha?sa?s tu te ca?cucaranair lohitais >>>>> si?ta??'" >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be >>> >>> >>> -- >>> BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 846616205) is spam: >>> Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 >>> Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 >>> Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 >>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>> END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >>> -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From cbpicron at GMX.DE Fri Apr 17 13:04:53 2009 From: cbpicron at GMX.DE (Claudine Bautze-Picron) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 15:04:53 +0200 Subject: New Publication "The Indian Night, Sleep and Dreams in Indian Culture" Message-ID: <161227085871.23782.13643958208120019793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I wish to inform you that the volume ?The Indian Night, Sleep and Dreams in Indian Culture? has just been released by Rupa & Co, New Delhi (ed. Claudine Bautze-Picron) (and a pair of rAjahaMsa appears also there !). It contains 22 papers which were presented during a conference organized in April 2004 in Paris and cover various aspects as seen in the table of contents below (where all diacriticals have been dropped for the sake of this mail). With all my best wishes, Claudine Bautze-Picron. Foreword The Physiology of Dreams Dream Physiology: a western View on Dreams, Jean-Louis Valatx Dreaming and Dying in Indian Mythology and ?yurvedic classical Texts, Martin Mittwede The Meaning of Dream A Song against bad Dreams: Magic, Supersition or Psychology ?, Jan E.M. Houben Dreams and other States of Consciousness in the Moksop?ya, J?rgen Hanneder Dreams and Sleep in Praxis How to sleep ? What to dream ? Sleep and Dream dos and don?ts in the Jain tradition, Nalini Balbir Dreams in the Saivite Practice, Luce Barazer-Billoret Dreams and Transgression in the Sanskrit prescriptive Texts, Jean Fezas The Role of Dreams in accessing higher States of Consciousness as practised in a contemporary Indian Ashram, Madhu Tandan Dreams and Sleep in Language and Literature Sleep and Dream in the Lexicon of Indo-European Languages, Georges-Jean Pinault Common Dream and its Interpretation according to Indian narrative Material, Jean-Pierre Osier Between Dream and Reality: literary Function of Dreams, Sylvain Brocquet Sleep and Dreams in the R?ma-kath?s, Eva De Clercq The Nightmare in contemporary Tamil short Stories, Chantal Delamourd Dreams in Buddhism M?y??s Dream from India to Southeast Asia, Anna Maria Quagliotti The five Dreams of the Bodhisatta in the Murals of Pagan (Myanmar), Claudine Bautze-Picron Dreams about the Buddha?s Departure from Home and the Construction of a Buddhist System of Dream Interpretation, Serinity Young Riding the Ass of the Great Vehicle backwards: Dreams and Revelations in The Life and Songs of Milarepa, Dani?le Masset Dreams from abroad The Role of Dreams in Muslim Mysticism, Pierre Lory Good Dreams, bad Dreams in the history of Japanese civilisation, Hartmut O. Rotermund Images of Dreams and sleep Representations of Visnu?s cosmic sleep in Nepalese Sculpture, Anne-Claire Juramie Sayana forms of dev? in sculptural Tradition from central India, Anne Casile Two illustrated Manuscripts on Dreams and Omens, Joachim K. Bautze The Authors From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Fri Apr 17 15:35:00 2009 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 15:35:00 +0000 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085888.23782.13424428033279807294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The MENALIB homepage ( http://www.menalib.de/) invites questions and suggestions concerning MENALIB pages to Dr. Lutz Wiederhold (lutz.wiederhold at bibliothek.uni-halle.de). Best, WS ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Dominik Wujastyk" schrieb: > I've discovered that by shrinking the on-screen display and then > magnifying it slightly, using the on-screen buttons, one can produce an > image that will print out on an A4 page. It's very fiddly, but can be > done. > > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > > long term email address: mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com > > > > > On Fri, 17 Apr 2009, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > It looks the same to me, Jonathan. And I haven't found an easy way to print > > out pages, even one-by-one (they're too big). One has to sit and read > > on-screen, which rapidly becomes unbearable. > > > > [If I've missed some crucial button, please tell me!] > > > > While it is absolutely wonderful to have the ZDMG online, the project is > > unfortunately undermined by its limited implementation, and to such a degree > > that it is not as useful as one might at first have hoped. > > > > This system has been designed "conservatively", i.e., more with a view to > > preventing copyright theft than with helping scholars do their research. > > > > I hope that the policies may be revised in future to enable article-length > > pieces to be downloaded as PDF or djvu files and printed out for serious > > reading. > > > > Best, > > Dominik > > > > > --------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From mjslouber at BERKELEY.EDU Fri Apr 17 09:54:14 2009 From: mjslouber at BERKELEY.EDU (Michael Slouber) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 15:39:14 +0545 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=B4a?= In-Reply-To: <7DEC8AF4189F4723B0AD5288D92E0F88@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227085857.23782.1795140627965540745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It's the traditional notion of the ha?sa's viveka that is the source of comparison: n?rak??raviveka? ca ha?so vetti na c?para? (Garu?apur??a 3,17.48) Other examples are abundant. Michael Slouber PhD Candidate UC Berkeley On Apr 17, 2009, at 3:16 PM, victor van Bijlert wrote: > I am aware of the fact that the hamsa is the Anser Indicus, a kind > of goose. > Could anyone explain why the hamsa has been used as a metaphor of a > special > type of world-renouncer, the socalled paramahamsa? Is there anything > in the > behaviour of the bird that could have led to calling certain > renouncers > paramahamsa's? I know this is sidetracking, but it seems relevant in > connection with the discussion of the bird hamsa. > > Victor > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens John C. > Huntington > Verzonden: vrijdag 17 april 2009 4:37 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a > > Historically it is not a Swan but the Anser Indicus > > John > > > On Apr 16, 2009, at 7:16 AM, victor van Bijlert wrote: > >> In the logo of the Ramakrishna Mission a real swan also figures, >> not a >> goose. Apparently in the nineteenth century one regarded the hansa >> as a >> swan. The latter perhaps as an allusion to the image of the swan >> that will >> sing its most beautiful song when it feels it is going to die; a >> famous >> image found in Plato's Phaedo, 84e-85b? The idea in Phaedo is that >> Socrates >> as a philosopher knows he is going to die and expects to be united >> with the >> God Apollo. >> Victor van Bijlert >> >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Christophe >> Vielle >> Verzonden: donderdag 16 april 2009 11:21 >> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a >> >> It is a real "swan" messenger that Raja Ravi >> Varma painted in his famous "Ha.msa-Damayantii" >> (1899) now displayed in the Sri Chitra Art >> Gallery, Tiruvanantapuram. See at: >> http://www.temple-trees.com/ravivarma/urrvprints.asp?printtype=2&pg=2 >> Best wishes, >> Christophe Vielle >> >>> I expect you are familiar with this book: >>> >>> Vogel, J. P., 1962, The Goose in Indian >>> Literature and Art. Memoirs of the Kern >>> Institute No. II. E. J. Brill, Leiden. >>> >>> According to my notes, Vogel (good name?) >>> identified haMsa and rAjahaMsa with a mainly >>> white form of the Indian goose (Anser indicus), >>> and kalahaMsa with the greylag goose (Anser >>> anser). >>> >>> Valerie J Roebuck >>> >>> At 7:12 am -0700 15/4/09, Oliver Fallon wrote: >>>> I would like some help on the identity of the >>>> ra?jaha?sa which is the subject of >>>> Veda?ntades?ika's Ha?sasa?des?a. He tells us >>>> little of the bird except that he repeatedly >>>> stresses that it is a pure white water bird and >>>> that it has a beautiful call as it flies to >>>> which that of the peacock is unfavourably >>>> compared. I was first provoked into considering >>>> that this is not a goose by a comment in >>>> Shastriar's 1902 Madras edition of the poem, >>>> where he says: "ra?jaha?sa is a species of swan >>>> with red legs and bills (sic). Compare >>>> 'ra?jaha?sa?s tu te ca?cucaranair lohitais >>>> si?ta??'" >> >> >> -- >> >> http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be >> >> >> -- >> BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 846616205) is spam: >> Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 >> Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 >> Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >> From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Apr 17 13:44:07 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 15:44:07 +0200 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085873.23782.11513439853662004872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It looks the same to me, Jonathan. And I haven't found an easy way to print out pages, even one-by-one (they're too big). One has to sit and read on-screen, which rapidly becomes unbearable. [If I've missed some crucial button, please tell me!] While it is absolutely wonderful to have the ZDMG online, the project is unfortunately undermined by its limited implementation, and to such a degree that it is not as useful as one might at first have hoped. This system has been designed "conservatively", i.e., more with a view to preventing copyright theft than with helping scholars do their research. I hope that the policies may be revised in future to enable article-length pieces to be downloaded as PDF or djvu files and printed out for serious reading. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Thu, 16 Apr 2009, Jonathan Silk wrote: > Dear Roland (and interested others), > > This is wonderful. But although maybe I missed it, there does not seem to be > a way to download complete articles, only to view page by page. Or....? > > Best, Jonathan > > 2009/4/16 Roland Steiner > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> The periodicals published by the "Deutsche Morgenlaendische Gesellschaft" >> (DMG -- German Oriental Society) have now been digitized. The resulting >> digital collection comprises 132.000 images. Tables of contents of all >> volumes are catalogued into the periodical contents database of the Middle >> East Virtual Library MENALIB - MENAcontents. Also, the contents of all >> volumes can be retrieved through a fulltext search. Access to the collection >> is open without any restrictions. The digital images are catalogued into >> databases of the Deutsche Nationalbibliothek (DNB -German National Library) >> the Zentrales Verzeichnis Digitalisierter Drucke (ZVDD - Central Directory >> of Digitzed Imprints) and DigiZeitschriften. >> >> http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg >> http://www.dmg-web.de/?page=23 >> >> Best, >> Roland Steiner >> >> ----- Weitergeleitete Nachricht von pohlus at INDOLOGIE.UNI-HALLE.DE ----- >> Datum: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:46:23 +0200 >> Von: Andreas Pohlus >> Antwort an: Informationsaustausch der deutschsprachigen Indologie < >> INDOLOGIE at LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE> >> Betreff: Zeitschriften der DMG digital >> An: INDOLOGIE at LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE >> >> Liebe Listenteilnehmer, >> >> im Rahmen eines von der DFG gef?rderten Projekts der Universit?ts- und >> Landesbibliothek Sachsen-Anhalt an der Martin-Luther-Universit?t >> Halle-Wittenberg wurden die von der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft >> publizierten Zeitschriften in einem Umfang von etwa 132.000 Seiten >> digitalisiert und f?r die Suche in den Inhaltsverzeichnissen der B?nde wie >> auch in den Volltexten der enthaltenen Beitr?ge erschlossen. Es handelt sich >> um die folgenden Zeitschriften: >> >> Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft (ZDMG). Leipzig: >> Brockhaus; Wiesbaden: Steiner; Harrassowitz, 1.1847 - 155.2005 (ISSN: >> 0341-0137) und Supplementa I - XI (DOT) >> Zeitschrift f?r Assyriologie und verwandte Gebiete: Fachzeitschrift der >> Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft. Berlin: de Gruyter, 1.1886 - >> 34.1922; N.F. 1=35.1923/1924 - 10=44.1938 >> Zeitschrift f?r Indologie und Iranistik, hrsg. im Auftrag der Deutschen >> Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft. Leipzig: Brockhaus [in Komm.], 1.1922 - >> 10.1935/1936; damit Erscheinen eingestellt (ISSN: 0259-7918) >> Zeitschrift f?r Semitistik und verwandte Gebiete, hrsg. im Auftrag der >> Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft. Leipzig: Brockhaus, 1.1922 - >> 10.1935; damit Erscheinen eingestellt (ISSN: 0259-7934) >> >> Die elektronischen Exemplare der Zeitschriften der DMG bilden einen ersten >> umfangreicheren Bestand des Volltextrepositoriums MENAdoc der ULB Halle, SSG >> Vorderer Orient (http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg; >> http://www.dmg-web.de/?page=23) und sind frei zug?nglich. >> >> Beste Gr??e, >> A. Pohlus >> >> ----- Ende der weitergeleiteten Nachricht ----- >> > > > > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Apr 17 13:54:48 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 15:54:48 +0200 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085876.23782.16073292601368714735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've discovered that by shrinking the on-screen display and then magnifying it slightly, using the on-screen buttons, one can produce an image that will print out on an A4 page. It's very fiddly, but can be done. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Fri, 17 Apr 2009, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > It looks the same to me, Jonathan. And I haven't found an easy way to print > out pages, even one-by-one (they're too big). One has to sit and read > on-screen, which rapidly becomes unbearable. > > [If I've missed some crucial button, please tell me!] > > While it is absolutely wonderful to have the ZDMG online, the project is > unfortunately undermined by its limited implementation, and to such a degree > that it is not as useful as one might at first have hoped. > > This system has been designed "conservatively", i.e., more with a view to > preventing copyright theft than with helping scholars do their research. > > I hope that the policies may be revised in future to enable article-length > pieces to be downloaded as PDF or djvu files and printed out for serious > reading. > > Best, > Dominik > > From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK Fri Apr 17 15:03:36 2009 From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 16:03:36 +0100 Subject: New Publication "The Indian Night, Sleep and Dreams in Indian Culture" In-Reply-To: <20090417T103913Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085882.23782.1179522607367357256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Allen, As it happens, you mentioned the book in an earlier post on this list: Ekirch, A. Roger, 1950- At day's close : night in times past New York : Norton, c2005. See t.c. at < http://www.loc.gov/catdir/toc/ecip057/2005002784.html >. If you'd like to see what you said about it before: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0804&L=INDOLOGY&P=R3142&I=-3 Cheers, wc 2009/4/17 Allen W Thrasher : > I read a scholarly work on the history of sleep and nighttime activities in early modern and modern Western Europe, whose title I can't seem to recall or retrieve. ?It said that people used to talk about first and second sleep, and a period of waking in between, in which people might inspect the livestock, make love, do chores, say prayers, or other activities. ?Manuals of devotion included prayers specifically for this period. ?(On might also wonder if the monastic custom of rising in the middle of the night for prayers was based on this. ?And some of the Psalms give me the impression middle of the night prayers were not unknown to the ancient Jews.) > > On the other hand, the author notes that the evidence for this routine and accepted period of waking comes from people who went to bed pretty soon after dark. ?Diaries of people of the upper strata who routinely stayed up much later, such as Pepys and Boswell, never mention it. > > The author thinks that with electricity and electronic entertainment the pattern has shifted towards the second one. > > Do the papers mention any such thing in India? ?One might wonder whether in view of the Indian habit of going to bed fairly late, especially in the hot season, and having a substantial nap in the afternoon, India might lean towards the second pattern. > > If anyone is familiar with the book I am referring to I'd appreciate the reference. > > > Allen > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. -- Dr. Whitney Cox Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia, School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London WC1H 0XG From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Apr 17 15:55:17 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 17:55:17 +0200 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: <1Luq6d-1Lj7Gy0@fwd11.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085891.23782.15579098765482043615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you, Walter. I've just written to him. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Fri, 17 Apr 2009, Walter Slaje wrote: > The MENALIB homepage ( http://www.menalib.de/) invites questions and suggestions concerning MENALIB pages to Dr. Lutz Wiederhold (lutz.wiederhold at bibliothek.uni-halle.de). > > Best, > > WS > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Dominik Wujastyk" schrieb: >> I've discovered that by shrinking the on-screen display and then >> magnifying it slightly, using the on-screen buttons, one can produce an >> image that will print out on an A4 page. It's very fiddly, but can be >> done. >> >> -- >> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >> >> long term email address: mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 17 Apr 2009, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >> >>> It looks the same to me, Jonathan. And I haven't found an easy way to print >>> out pages, even one-by-one (they're too big). One has to sit and read >>> on-screen, which rapidly becomes unbearable. >>> >>> [If I've missed some crucial button, please tell me!] >>> >>> While it is absolutely wonderful to have the ZDMG online, the project is >>> unfortunately undermined by its limited implementation, and to such a degree >>> that it is not as useful as one might at first have hoped. >>> >>> This system has been designed "conservatively", i.e., more with a view to >>> preventing copyright theft than with helping scholars do their research. >>> >>> I hope that the policies may be revised in future to enable article-length >>> pieces to be downloaded as PDF or djvu files and printed out for serious >>> reading. >>> >>> Best, >>> Dominik >>> >>> >> > > > --------------------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Fri Apr 17 16:00:52 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 09 18:00:52 +0200 Subject: ha.msa in parama-ha.msa and ha.msa-sa.mde/sa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085894.23782.17865193820127970922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is also the story of God Brahmaa going to the top of the sky in the shape of a ha.msa (looking for the end of the li;nga, while Vi.s.nu goes under the Earth in the shape of a boar) as reminded by Puur.nasarasvatii: ruupa.m bibhran na.ta iva sakhe rocamaa.na.m tvadiiya.m maatu.m dhaataa madanadamanajyotir uurdhva.m gato 'bhuut | 7ab (the story is at least told in Li;ngaP 1,17,5-52) I wonder what are the oldest (textual or iconographical) sources for the ha.msa(s) as vehicle of Brahmaa, and what is the original symbolical relationship between the god and the bird. Christophe Vielle >I suspect a factor in the soul being compared to >it, and the sannyasis being called paramahaMsa, >is that it flies very high and also fast and >without stop, seeming to make it almost >completely detached from the earth. > >The Wikipedia article Bar-Headed Goose says: > >"The Bar-headed Goose is one of the world's >highest flying birds, having been seen at up to >10175 m (33,382 feet). It has a slightly larger >wing area for its weight than other geese and it >is believed this helps the goose to fly high.[2] >Studies have found that they breathe more >efficiently under low oxygen conditions and are >able to reduce heat loss.[3] The haemoglobin of >their blood has a higher oxygen affinity than >that of other geese.[4] >The Bar-headed Goose migrates over the Himalayas >to spend the winter in India, Assam, Northern >Burma and the wetlands of Pakistan. It migrates >up to Magadi wetlands of Gadag district of >Karnataka in the southern part of India. The >winter habitat of the Bar-headed Goose is on >cultivation where it feeds on barley, rice and >wheat, and may damage crops. The bird is can fly >the 1000-mile migration route in just one day as >it is able to fly in jet stream. [1]" >Allen > >Hoping not to "grind flour" too much, I would >say that the double ha.msa's quality of >travelling freely the world and distinguishing >milk mixed with water (cf. Slouber's post), as >reminded in Puur.nasarasvatii's Ha.msa-sa.mde/sa >(9) : > >pauna.hpu.nyaad bhuvanam akhila.m bhraamyata.h svairav.rtte.h >/saktasyoccair api samudite k.siiraniire vivektum | >maarga.m taavanmahita mahataa.m notsahe te pravaktu.m >j?aataj?aana.m na khalu sudhiyaa.m tu.s.taye pi.s.tape.sa.h || > >is enough for explaining why the name of this >migrating and vivekin bird, as "parama" denotes >a all-discriminating and super-liberated ascetic >(=? in the poem the su-dhii to whom the path, >maargam, to liberation is already known, >j?aataj?aanam). > >>I am grateful for the references, also the ones >>from the Yoga Upanishads. But they do not >>explain to me why this bird was selected as a >>model of a high type of (yogic performer? and) >>world-renouncer. >>But already many thanks >>Victor van Bijlert > >>Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:13:10 +0200 >>From: Christophe Vielle >>Subject: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a >> >> >>Without being a specialist, the ha.msa seems >>rather to be connected with yoga in this case : >>the ha.msa as migrant bird being in some yoga >>texts a metaphor of the the Soul escaping from >>the sa.msaara (see Ha.msa-Up 1.5, K.surikaa-Up >>1.22), with also puns on the repetition of the >>word "ha.msa" (breathing in making "ham" and >>out "sa", Dhyaanabindu-Up 1.62, or ha.msa as >>the reverse of so'ham). The parama-ha.msa would >>be the one who has attained perpetual mukti >>from the nets of living. I rely here on the >>writings of the late Jean Varenne, Aux sources >>du yoga, Paris, 1989, pp. 68-70, and Upanishads >>du yoga, Paris, 1971, pp. 24-25, 110-11, 163. >>There probably exist more complete studies on the subject. >>Best wishes, >>Christophe Vielle >> > > >>-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >>Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Michael Slouber >>Verzonden: vrijdag 17 april 2009 11:54 >>Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha.msasa.mde/sa >> >>It's the traditional notion of the ha.msa's viveka that is the source >>of comparison: >> >>n?rak.s?raviveka.m ca ha.mso vetti na c?para? >>(Garu.dapur?.na 3,17.48) >> >>Other examples are abundant. >> >>Michael Slouber >>PhD Candidate >>UC Berkeley >> >> >> >>On Apr 17, 2009, at 3:16 PM, victor van Bijlert wrote: >> >>> I am aware of the fact that the hamsa is the Anser Indicus, a kind >>> of goose. >>> Could anyone explain why the hamsa has been used as a metaphor of a >>> special >>> type of world-renouncer, the socalled paramahamsa? Is there anything >>> in the >>> behaviour of the bird that could have led to calling certain >>> renouncers >>> paramahamsa's? I know this is sidetracking, but it seems relevant in >>> connection with the discussion of the bird hamsa. >>> >>> Victor >>> >>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >>> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens John C. >>> Huntington >>> Verzonden: vrijdag 17 april 2009 4:37 >>> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a >>> >>> Historically it is not a Swan but the Anser Indicus >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> On Apr 16, 2009, at 7:16 AM, victor van Bijlert wrote: >>> >>>> In the logo of the Ramakrishna Mission a real swan also figures, >>>> not a >>>> goose. Apparently in the nineteenth century one regarded the hansa >>>> as a >>>> swan. The latter perhaps as an allusion to the image of the swan >>>> that will >>>> sing its most beautiful song when it feels it is going to die; a >>>> famous >>>> image found in Plato's Phaedo, 84e-85b? The idea in Phaedo is that >>>> Socrates >>>> as a philosopher knows he is going to die and expects to be united >>>> with the >>>> God Apollo. >>>> Victor van Bijlert >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >>>> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Christophe >>>> Vielle >>>> Verzonden: donderdag 16 april 2009 11:21 >>>> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>>> Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a >> >> >>>> It is a real "swan" messenger that Raja Ravi >>>> Varma painted in his famous "Ha.msa-Damayantii" >>>> (1899) now displayed in the Sri Chitra Art >>>> Gallery, Tiruvanantapuram. See at: >>>> http://www.temple-trees.com/ravivarma/urrvprints.asp?printtype=2&pg=2 >>>> Best wishes, >>>> Christophe Vielle >>>> >>>>> I expect you are familiar with this book: >>>>> >>>>> Vogel, J. P., 1962, The Goose in Indian >>>>> Literature and Art. Memoirs of the Kern >>>>> Institute No. II. E. J. Brill, Leiden. >>>>> >>>>> According to my notes, Vogel (good name?) >>>>> identified haMsa and rAjahaMsa with a mainly >>>>> white form of the Indian goose (Anser indicus), >>>>> and kalahaMsa with the greylag goose (Anser >>>>> anser). >>>>> >>>>> Valerie J Roebuck >>>>> >>>>> At 7:12 am -0700 15/4/09, Oliver Fallon wrote: >>>>>> I would like some help on the identity of the >>>>>> ra?jaha?sa which is the subject of >>>>>> Veda?ntades?ika's Ha?sasa?des?a. He tells us >>>>>> little of the bird except that he repeatedly >>>>>> stresses that it is a pure white water bird and >>>>>> that it has a beautiful call as it flies to >>>>>> which that of the peacock is unfavourably >>>>>> compared. I was first provoked into considering >>>>>> that this is not a goose by a comment in >>>>>> Shastriar's 1902 Madras edition of the poem, >>>>>> where he says: "ra?jaha?sa is a species of swan >>>>>> with red legs and bills (sic). Compare >>>>>> 'ra?jaha?sa?s tu te ca?cucaranair lohitais >>>>>> si?ta??'" >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >>>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 846616205) is spam: >>>> Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 >>>> Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 >>>> Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=846616205&m=c5358c6a05a6 >>>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>>> END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >>>> > > >-- > >http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Fri Apr 17 22:14:17 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 09 00:14:17 +0200 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des=?windows-1258?Q?=ECa?= In-Reply-To: <20090417T105812Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085899.23782.14532740753308311945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is also a very interesting piece of information. But I am wondering if the ancient Indians knew all these physiological facts regarding this bird. They certainly could have seen these birds cross the Himalayas. But could they have measured the speed at which these birds fly on a jet stream? But I more and more get the idea that high flying and crossing the Himalayas may be the origin of the metaphor, and hence also of giving Brahmaa a hamsa as vahana. Of course Brahmaa represents the top of the cosmic / social Hindu hierarchy and could therefore best be portrayed as riding a high-flying bird. Many thanks for all the information Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Allen W Thrasher Verzonden: vrijdag 17 april 2009 16:58 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des?a I suspect a factor in the soul being compared to it, and the sannyasis being called paramahaMsa, is that it flies very high and also fast and without stop, seeming to make it almost completely detached from the earth. The Wikipedia article Bar-Headed Goose says: "The Bar-headed Goose is one of the world's highest flying birds, having been seen at up to 10175 m (33,382 feet). It has a slightly larger wing area for its weight than other geese and it is believed this helps the goose to fly high.[2] Studies have found that they breathe more efficiently under low oxygen conditions and are able to reduce heat loss.[3] The haemoglobin of their blood has a higher oxygen affinity than that of other geese.[4] The Bar-headed Goose migrates over the Himalayas to spend the winter in India, Assam, Northern Burma and the wetlands of Pakistan. It migrates up to Magadi wetlands of Gadag district of Karnataka in the southern part of India. The winter habitat of the Bar-headed Goose is on cultivation where it feeds on barley, rice and wheat, and may damage crops. The bird is can fly the 1000-mile migration route in just one day as it is able to fly in jet stream. [1]" Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >>> victor van Bijlert 4/17/2009 5:31:55 AM >>> I am aware of the fact that the hamsa is the Anser Indicus, a kind of goose. Could anyone explain why the hamsa has been used as a metaphor of a special type of world-renouncer, the socalled paramahamsa? Is there anything in the behaviour of the bird that could have led to calling certain renouncers paramahamsa's? I know this is sidetracking, but it seems relevant in connection with the discussion of the bird hamsa. Victor From slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU Sun Apr 19 00:33:08 2009 From: slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU (Lindquist, Steven) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 09 19:33:08 -0500 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085904.23782.17607953792595493271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I use a Mac, but this must be the same or very similar on a PC. I can > right-click on each page and save each page as an image file. Then, I can > print each page separately from there (and most image programs can > automatically scale the image to your paper size). >Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html wrapper, >without the digital image of the page. But since you've had success, >there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. What I get is the image only (nothing of the wrapper, etc.). Perhaps this is an issue of where you are clicking to save? (I am clicking on the center of the image and saving from there). There certainly must be a way around the problem you are having. Has anyone else out there with a PC got this to work? > Of course, this is cumbersome (but not obnoxiously so, especially if you have > a fast internet connection). For someone like me who doesn't have easy > access to this journal (only through inter-library loan or a 4-5 hour drive), > I think this free resource is fabulous and it strikes me as completely > reasonable that they do not allow downloads. >Why is it reasonable to allow the above process but not a single download >of per-article PDFs? Either they are releasing these materials or they >are not. Since they are (and it's wonderful and we're all incredibly >grateful), then it would be kind of them to serve the needs of working >scholars more appropriately. Like almost all other online journals, or >JSTOR, for example. But, as you know, how that information is released determines the value of the issues already printed and those that may be printed. The setup of this webpage retains a value for the print editions (past and future), but is "completely free" to the end user who reads from the online version. By not making PDFs available for download, there is still a value for the past/future print editions (new subscriptions, people/libraries who own previous issues, and so on). Going through a mildly annoying process to print an article here or there should not significantly hurt their financial bottom line. Giving everything away via PDF would. JSTOR, on the other hand, is not free at all: an incredible amount of money changes hands with JSTOR (libraries pay very large fees for JSTOR subscriptions; JSTOR, in turn, pays individual journals a fee per download). In fact, many journals actually make money (rather than lose it through lost subscriptions) by making an agreement with JSTOR. Best, Steven From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Apr 18 18:08:02 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 09 20:08:02 +0200 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: <10B73C78-228A-45FB-A780-678C56B62193@mail.smu.edu> Message-ID: <161227085902.23782.14412045070065159052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 17 Apr 2009, Steven Lindquist wrote: > I use a Mac, but this must be the same or very similar on a PC. I can > right-click on each page and save each page as an image file. Then, I can > print each page separately from there (and most image programs can > automatically scale the image to your paper size). Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html wrapper, without the digital image of the page. But since you've had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. > Of course, this is cumbersome (but not obnoxiously so, especially if you have > a fast internet connection). For someone like me who doesn't have easy > access to this journal (only through inter-library loan or a 4-5 hour drive), > I think this free resource is fabulous and it strikes me as completely > reasonable that they do not allow downloads. Why is it reasonable to allow the above process but not a single download of per-article PDFs? Either they are releasing these materials or they are not. Since they are (and it's wonderful and we're all incredibly grateful), then it would be kind of them to serve the needs of working scholars more appropriately. Like almost all other online journals, or JSTOR, for example. Best, Dominik From slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU Sun Apr 19 11:16:34 2009 From: slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU (Lindquist, Steven) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 09 06:16:34 -0500 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: <49EAE9B6.7000702@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227085915.23782.17961318528093262982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While you mention several good points, my assumption is not that "freely making available publications online will decrease the value (and sales) of print versions." The assumption in my email is only that *certain types* of free distribution of material could do this. The distribution method of this online journal *does* make the material freely available, but only in a particular fashion (i.e., not as PDFs). In fact, it seems that they are doing precisely what you mention -- trying out a different model to see how it works. Steven >Just to add an observation here: the underlying assumption of this >argument is that freely making available publications online will >decrease the value (and sales) of the print versions. This assumption >has not been confirmed by the experience of online publishing so far - >in fact, publishers do regularly report that their print sales go up >once their content is available online - because on the one hand, >apparently, many readers do prefer having the physical (bound) >publication in their hands (and many libraries reasonably assume that >paper is a more reliable form of long-term archiving than digital >formats that may turn out to be short-lived), and because on the other >hand, online circulation attracts new readers to a journal or book that >otherwise would not have come across it. >All of this is terribly complex, and as with many other things >concerning digitization, things are far from being predetermined; a >number of financing and distribution models for journals are currently >being tried out. But one thing is for sure: the assumption that free >online access diminishes print sales is most certainly not a categorical >truth. >Best regards, >Birgit Kellner From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Apr 19 09:46:58 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 09 10:46:58 +0100 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: <4E0654CAC838F947AF4BCF032685AC2A3ED61E43AF@SXMBXB.systems.smu.edu> Message-ID: <161227085912.23782.15945398922280235385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've now worked out what I was doing wrong when trying to save page images of the ZDMG. A silly error, and being able to save the page images really does help. As you say, Steven, one can patiently save pages, and then print them out for quiet, serious reading. And even make one's own PDF for later use and convenient storage. Time-consuming, but nevertheless not hard to do. On Sat, 18 Apr 2009, Lindquist, Steven wrote: > The setup of this webpage retains a value for the print editions (past > and future), but is "completely free" to the end user who reads from the > online version. By not making PDFs available for download, there is > still a value for the past/future print editions (new subscriptions, > people/libraries who own previous issues, and so on). Going through a > mildly annoying process to print an article here or there should not > significantly hurt their financial bottom line. Giving everything away > via PDF would. Yes, I do take your point. And JSTOR was a bad example for the reasons you gave. However, there are more than four thousand journals and a quarter of a million articles available as free, Open Access pdfs, and that only counts those listed at http://www.doaj.org/. Without examining the accounts of the ZDMG, it's difficult to make a definitive argument about the continuing financial value of back issues. I'm skeptical, though. Furthermore, it is a documented certainty that making online journals available free (with article PDFs) often actually *increases* the sale of paper subscriptions. This is the case with the journal Medical History, for example, that is edited out of my former department at UCL. (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/histmed/publications/med_hist) It's Open Access, free for both contributors and online readers, and yet the print subscriptions have gone up substantially since it was made Open Access. However, maybe I'm wrong about the ZDMG specifically, and it is worth inconveniencing all current scholars for the sake of this back-revenue. If that is the case, then I would like to be given an option to pay a small fee perhaps one or two Euros per article, to have them as PDFs rather than the present system. More rational would be to have an optional monthly or annual subscription, kept at a low level (say ?20-30 per annum) to allow the ZDMG to provide a convenient, modern service while protecting its presumed residual income. Or a moving-wall of 10, 50, 100 years (!) for whole PDFs. Many solutions can be imagined that would help us all. I don't want to sound ungrateful to the publishers of the ZDMG. Having the back issues online in any form at all is superb. And the keyword search facility, that we haven't mentioned, is also of incalculable value. It is just a pity that the project went so far, but at the very end point of delivery it retains a type of protectionism that creates a not insignificant frustration and waste of valuable research time for its core clientele. Best, Dominik From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sun Apr 19 09:07:02 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 09 11:07:02 +0200 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: <4E0654CAC838F947AF4BCF032685AC2A3ED61E43AF@SXMBXB.systems.smu.edu> Message-ID: <161227085906.23782.4256203167866565678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lindquist, Steven wrote: > Why is it reasonable to allow the above process but not a single download >> of per-article PDFs? Either they are releasing these materials or they >> are not. Since they are (and it's wonderful and we're all incredibly >> grateful), then it would be kind of them to serve the needs of working >> scholars more appropriately. Like almost all other online journals, or >> JSTOR, for example. >> > > But, as you know, how that information is released determines the value of the issues already printed and those that may be printed. > > The setup of this webpage retains a value for the print editions (past and future), but is "completely free" to the end user who reads from the online version. By not making PDFs available for download, there is still a value for the past/future print editions (new subscriptions, people/libraries who own previous issues, and so on). Going through a mildly annoying process to print an article here or there should not significantly hurt their financial bottom line. Giving everything away via PDF would. > > JSTOR, on the other hand, is not free at all: an incredible amount of money changes hands with JSTOR (libraries pay very large fees for JSTOR subscriptions; JSTOR, in turn, pays individual journals a fee per download). In fact, many journals actually make money (rather than lose it through lost subscriptions) by making an agreement with JSTOR. > > Just to add an observation here: the underlying assumption of this argument is that freely making available publications online will decrease the value (and sales) of the print versions. This assumption has not been confirmed by the experience of online publishing so far - in fact, publishers do regularly report that their print sales go up once their content is available online - because on the one hand, apparently, many readers do prefer having the physical (bound) publication in their hands (and many libraries reasonably assume that paper is a more reliable form of long-term archiving than digital formats that may turn out to be short-lived), and because on the other hand, online circulation attracts new readers to a journal or book that otherwise would not have come across it. All of this is terribly complex, and as with many other things concerning digitization, things are far from being predetermined; a number of financing and distribution models for journals are currently being tried out. But one thing is for sure: the assumption that free online access diminishes print sales is most certainly not a categorical truth. Best regards, Birgit Kellner From kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE Sun Apr 19 10:01:00 2009 From: kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE (=?utf-8?Q?petra_kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 09 12:01:00 +0200 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085909.23782.18061825444465787596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > > > Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html > wrapper, without the digital image of the page. But since you've > had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At least that's the way I could save some articles. Best Petra Kieffer-P?lz ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 19 18:21:22 2009 From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 09 18:21:22 +0000 Subject: Bautze Message-ID: <161227085917.23782.15315086309832175461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends: Does any one have the coordinates of J. Bautze? Regards. Harsha Harsha V. Dehejia Ottawa, ON., Canada. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Sun Apr 19 20:00:42 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 09 21:00:42 +0100 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des=?iso-8859-1?Q?=B4a?= Message-ID: <161227085920.23782.12038202577784053793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Victor van Bijlert wrote: >I am aware of the fact that the hamsa is the Anser Indicus, a kind of >goose. >Could anyone explain why the hamsa has been used as a metaphor of a special >type of world-renouncer. To complicate matters, I have found that a number of Buddhist texts prefer to use the simile of the saarasa ~ also a type of goose ~ in basically the same context. I wonder if the ha.msa was avoided deliberately. The imagery with the saarasa seems to be connected with this powerful migratory bird flying upwards into the sky and away, especially after it has hatched and nurtured its offspring. Best wishes, Stepehen Hodge From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Mon Apr 20 06:18:34 2009 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 09 07:18:34 +0100 Subject: rAjahaMsa in the ha?sasa?des=?iso-8859-1?Q?=B4a?= In-Reply-To: <11FF3A3091B1410A8164C845AE38C565@zen> Message-ID: <161227085922.23782.7397848525707312441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are haMsas in the Dhammapada (91, 175), and the equivalent verses in the Patna Dharmapada (231, 232) and Udanavarga (17.1, 17.2); also their path in Uv. 12.12. The DhammapadaTThakathA (c. 5th century CE) on Dhp 91explains that, when the birds are leaving a pond, they don't think, 'This is my water, my lotus, my water-lily, my pericarp': they just go. Valerie J Roebuck At 9:00 pm +0100 19/4/09, Stephen Hodge wrote: >Victor van Bijlert wrote: > >>I am aware of the fact that the hamsa is the Anser Indicus, a kind of goose. >>Could anyone explain why the hamsa has been used as a metaphor of a special >>type of world-renouncer. > >To complicate matters, I have found that a number of Buddhist texts >prefer to use the simile of the saarasa ~ also a type of goose ~ in >basically the same context. I wonder if the ha.msa was avoided >deliberately. The imagery with the saarasa seems to be connected >with this powerful migratory bird flying upwards into the sky and >away, especially after it has hatched and nurtured its offspring. > >Best wishes, >Stepehen Hodge From slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU Mon Apr 20 15:11:11 2009 From: slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU (Steven Lindquist) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 09 10:11:11 -0500 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: <20090420112757.2r4t42eaf4w04w04@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: <161227085927.23782.17677749415733559553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is great news! (I am surprised, though, that this was not part of the announcement, especially if it was planned from the beginning). I have always been a supporter of Open Access, but I admit that I am more skeptical than some when it comes to how broadly I think it can/should work. My best, Steven On Apr 20, 2009, at 4:27 AM, Roland Steiner wrote: > Dear Jonathan (and interested others), > > According to Dr. Lutz Wiederhold (Universit?ts- und Landesbibliothek > Sachsen-Anhalt in Halle), full text search and download of complete > articles as PDF files (free resource) will be implemented within the > next weeks, which, I've been told, was planned so right from the > beginning. > > Best, > Roland > > -- > Dr. Roland Steiner > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Seminar f?r Indologie > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06099 Halle (Saale) > Tel.: +49-345-55-23656 > Fax.: +49-345-55-27211 > URL: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/ > E-Mail: roland.steiner at indologie.uni-halle.de From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Mon Apr 20 09:27:57 2009 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 09 11:27:57 +0200 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085924.23782.3741377024848605398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jonathan (and interested others), According to Dr. Lutz Wiederhold (Universit?ts- und Landesbibliothek Sachsen-Anhalt in Halle), full text search and download of complete articles as PDF files (free resource) will be implemented within the next weeks, which, I've been told, was planned so right from the beginning. Best, Roland -- Dr. Roland Steiner Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Seminar f?r Indologie Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06099 Halle (Saale) Tel.: +49-345-55-23656 Fax.: +49-345-55-27211 URL: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/ E-Mail: roland.steiner at indologie.uni-halle.de From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Mon Apr 20 20:29:08 2009 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 09 08:29:08 +1200 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085930.23782.15560717015100864144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Steven, On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 10:11:11AM -0500, Steven Lindquist wrote: > On Apr 20, 2009, at 4:27 AM, Roland Steiner wrote: > >> Dear Jonathan (and interested others), >> >> According to Dr. Lutz Wiederhold (Universit?ts- und >> Landesbibliothek Sachsen-Anhalt in Halle), full text search and >> download of complete articles as PDF files (free resource) will be >> implemented within the next weeks, which, I've been told, was >> planned so right from the beginning. >> >> Best, >> Roland > This is great news! (I am surprised, though, that this was not part > of the announcement, especially if it was planned from the > beginning). I have always been a supporter of Open Access, but I > admit that I am more skeptical than some when it comes to how > broadly I think it can/should work. > > My best, > > Steven For many -- and in my opinion rightly -- the formula is simple: `publicly-funded research should be publicly-available', period. A good amount of attention has been devoted to this issue of late. This link may be helpful: The European University Association recommendations on Open Access http://tinyurl.com/d22vqj And also the list of material on this page: European Open Scholar: What is EnablingOpenScholarship? http://www.openscholarship.org/jcms/j_6/home Best regards, Richard -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Wed Apr 22 02:14:13 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 09 22:14:13 -0400 Subject: ha.msa in parama-ha.msa and ha.msa-sa.mde/sa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085932.23782.11440584629391289475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, I am sure that some of the previously mentioned books refer to the Vedic material regarding hamsa, but maybe it will be useful to those who don't have access to the earlier literature to mention these Vedic facts: The puranic and late upanisidic texts mentioned in earlier posts have clear antecedents in earlier Vedic. These Vedic antecedents include not only the oldest upanisads [BAU, ChU], as well as later upanisads [KaU & ShvetU] but many YV texts as well [KS, MS, VS, TB]. But even in oldest Vedic [RV] the term hamsa is already well-attested [16 times] and in every stratum of the RV. What is evident from this evidence is this: Iranian attestations of the Indo-European word, which is attested in Latin 'anser', Germ.' Gans', etc., are tenuous. But Indo-European origins of this word nevertheless seems secure. Of course, these linguistic origins do not tell us what sort of bird the Sanskrit term hamsa refers to, but they do suggest Christophe Vielle wrote: > There is also the story of God Brahmaa going to the top of the sky in > the shape of a ha.msa (looking for the end of the li;nga, while > Vi.s.nu goes under the Earth in the shape of a boar) as reminded by > Puur.nasarasvatii: > > ruupa.m bibhran na.ta iva sakhe rocamaa.na.m tvadiiya.m > maatu.m dhaataa madanadamanajyotir uurdhva.m gato 'bhuut | 7ab > > (the story is at least told in Li;ngaP 1,17,5-52) > > I wonder what are the oldest (textual or iconographical) sources for > the ha.msa(s) as vehicle of Brahmaa, and what is the original > symbolical relationship between the god and the bird. > > > Christophe Vielle > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Apr 22 02:55:33 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 09 08:25:33 +0530 Subject: ha.msa in parama-ha.msa and ha.msa-sa.mde/sa Message-ID: <161227085935.23782.11618535852097803175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following is relevant?to the LP story?mentioned by?Christophe Vielle ? ?kam p??dam no?t khidati salil??d dhamsa? ucca?ran/ yad anga tam utkhidet naiv?dya na ;sva.h sy?n na r?tr? n?ha.h sy?n na vy ucchet kad? cana t etc. (AVS 11.4.21; AVP 16.23.1). The swan is divine and also the connection between heaven and earth. This should be the earliest expression of the Brahm?-Swan complex. I shall be glad to know of any other instance known to anyone Best for all DB --- On Wed, 22/4/09, George Thompson wrote: From: George Thompson Subject: Re: ha.msa in parama-ha.msa and ha.msa-sa.mde/sa To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 22 April, 2009, 7:44 AM Dear List, I am sure that some of the previously mentioned books refer to the Vedic material regarding hamsa, but maybe it will be useful to those who don't have access to the earlier literature to mention these Vedic facts: The puranic and late upanisidic texts mentioned in earlier posts have clear antecedents in earlier Vedic.? These Vedic antecedents include not only the oldest upanisads [BAU, ChU], as well as later upanisads [KaU & ShvetU] but many YV texts as well [KS, MS, VS, TB].???But even in oldest Vedic [RV] the term hamsa? is already well-attested [16 times] and in every stratum of the RV. What is evident from this evidence is this: Iranian attestations of the Indo-European word, which is attested in Latin 'anser', Germ.' Gans', etc., are tenuous.? But Indo-European origins of this word nevertheless seems secure.? Of course, these linguistic origins do not tell us what sort of bird the Sanskrit term hamsa refers to, but they do suggest Christophe Vielle wrote: > There is also the story of God Brahmaa going to the top of the sky in the shape of a ha.msa (looking for the end of the li;nga, while Vi.s.nu goes under the Earth in the shape of a boar) as reminded by Puur.nasarasvatii: > > ruupa.m bibhran na.ta iva sakhe rocamaa.na.m tvadiiya.m > maatu.m dhaataa madanadamanajyotir uurdhva.m gato 'bhuut | 7ab > > (the story is at least told in Li;ngaP 1,17,5-52) > > I wonder what are the oldest (textual or iconographical) sources for the ha.msa(s) as vehicle of Brahmaa, and what is the original symbolical relationship between the god and the bird. > > > Christophe Vielle > Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE Wed Apr 22 06:25:35 2009 From: kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE (=?utf-8?Q?petra_kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 09 08:25:35 +0200 Subject: pramanas Message-ID: <161227085938.23782.17590736978141887486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, I've got a list of four pram??as in a P?li text, these are: pratyak?a anum?na ?abda arth?patti Can anybody tell me, whether these four are typical for specific branches of Buddhist philosophy or perhaps other Indian philosophies? Would be grateful for any information, Petra Kieffer-P?lz ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Wed Apr 22 08:02:27 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 09 10:02:27 +0200 Subject: pramanas In-Reply-To: <7B13A518-4756-416E-9D50-8CCE16073A82@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085943.23782.3476583682873203809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It would be good to know the context and the text in which these terms occur. Incidentally, the spelling does not look very Pali-like. The earliest occurrence of these terms in epistemological meanings I could think is the Caraka-Samhita. The next would be the Vaisheshika Sutra and the Nyaya Sutra. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens petra kieffer-P?lz Verzonden: woensdag 22 april 2009 8:26 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: pramanas Dear All, I've got a list of four pram??as in a P?li text, these are: pratyak?a anum?na ?abda arth?patti Can anybody tell me, whether these four are typical for specific branches of Buddhist philosophy or perhaps other Indian philosophies? Would be grateful for any information, Petra Kieffer-P?lz ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de From vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU Wed Apr 22 07:10:44 2009 From: vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU (Viktoria Lyssenko) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 09 11:10:44 +0400 Subject: pramanas In-Reply-To: <7B13A518-4756-416E-9D50-8CCE16073A82@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085940.23782.1642677222102217228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It looks like Mimamsa pramanas. What is your Pali text? Victoria Lysenko > Dear All, > > I've got a list of four pram??as in a P?li text, these are: > > pratyak?a > anum?na > ?abda > arth?patti > > Can anybody tell me, whether these four are typical for specific > branches of Buddhist philosophy or perhaps other Indian philosophies? > > Would be grateful for any information, > Petra Kieffer-P?lz > > ************** > Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz > Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 > 99423 Weimar > Germany > Tel. 03643/770447 > kiepue at t-online.de ??????.?????. ???? ?? ?????? http://mail.yandex.ru/nospam From elisa.freschi at STUDISUDASIATICI.NET Wed Apr 22 09:12:21 2009 From: elisa.freschi at STUDISUDASIATICI.NET (elisa freschi) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 09 11:12:21 +0200 Subject: pramanas Message-ID: <161227085945.23782.12073011620187941814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Lysenko, why Mimamsa? I only know Mimamsa lists including upamana (though not using it very much) and (if Bhatta) abhavapramana. See, e.g., 'Sabara ad 1.1.4: pratyak.sapuurvakatvaac caanumaanopamaanaarthaapattiinaam apy akaara.natvam. abhaavo 'pi naasti. Are you aware of a Mimamsa list non including upamana? thanks, yours elisa freschi assegnista di ricerca "Indian Philsophies and Religions" faculty of Oriental Studies via Principe Amedeo university "Sapienza" Rome, Italy ----- Original Message ----- Da : Viktoria Lyssenko A : INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Oggetto : Re: pramanas Data : Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:10:44 +0400 > It looks like Mimamsa pramanas. What is your Pali text? > > Victoria Lysenko > > > Dear All, > > > > I've got a list of four pram?????as in a P??li text, > > these are: > > pratyak???a > > anum??na > > ??abda > > arth??patti > > > > Can anybody tell me, whether these four are typical for > > specific branches of Buddhist philosophy or perhaps > > other Indian philosophies? > > Would be grateful for any information, > > Petra Kieffer-P??lz > > > > ************** > > Dr. Petra Kieffer-P??lz > > Wilhelm-K??lz-Str. 2 > > 99423 Weimar > > Germany > > Tel. 03643/770447 > > kiepue at t-online.de > > > ????????????.??????????. ???????? ???? ???????????? > http://mail.yandex.ru/nospam From veltsch at OEAW.AC.AT Wed Apr 22 09:31:43 2009 From: veltsch at OEAW.AC.AT (Vincent Eltschinger) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 09 11:31:43 +0200 Subject: pramanas In-Reply-To: <7B13A518-4756-416E-9D50-8CCE16073A82@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085947.23782.807627181076002568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Petra, Though I am also very curious about the context where this list occurs, let me say that it does not match other, pre-epistemological lists (from Dignaaga onwards, late Buddhist philosophers accept only two pramaa.nas, i.e., pratyak.sa and anumaana). In what appears to be the earliest Buddhist "dialectical" text, the "hetuvidyaa section" of the Yogaacaarabhuumi, only pratyak.sa is explicitly said to be a pramaa.na, but other items have the same function (to provide arguments for the reason): anumaana, aaptopade'sa (= 'sabda), similarity and dissimilarity (to be treated as one or two elements). In the *Upaayah.rdaya (preserved in Chinese only, and retranslated into Sanskrit by Giuseppe Tucci), the list provided matches the Naiyaayika one: pratyak.sa, anumaana, aaptopade'sa, and upamaana. However, the Buddhist "idealists" (Asa.nga in the Abhidharmasamuccaya, Vasubandhu in the Abhidharmako'sabhaa.sya, in the Vyaakhyaayukti and probably, contra Frauwallner, in the Vaadavidhi) generally reckon three pramaa.nas: pratyak.sa, anumaana, and aaptopade'sa. As far as I know, then, arthaapatti does not occur in the available Buddhist works concerned with pramaa.nas. Yours sincerly, Vincent Eltschinger > Dear All, > > I've got a list of four pram?????as in a P??li text, these are: > > pratyak???a > anum??na > ??abda > arth??patti > > Can anybody tell me, whether these four are typical for specific > branches of Buddhist philosophy or perhaps other Indian philosophies? > > Would be grateful for any information, > Petra Kieffer-P??lz > > ************** > Dr. Petra Kieffer-P??lz > Wilhelm-K??lz-Str. 2 > 99423 Weimar > Germany > Tel. 03643/770447 > kiepue at t-online.de > From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Wed Apr 22 16:22:51 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 09 12:22:51 -0400 Subject: ha.msa in parama-ha.msa and ha.msa-sa.mde/sa In-Reply-To: <249355.10166.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085963.23782.9997108117880004137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, I apologize for sending an incomplete message to the list last night. It was intended to go to the Save box. I have been rather too busy of late. Thank you to Deepak Bhattacharya for replying with the AV passage and to Joanna Jurevich for continuing my train of thought. RV 10.124.9 & 4.40.5 were certainly on my mind. Other RV passages also seem to predate AVS 11.4.21/AVP 16.23.1: see RV 1.65.9 where Agni is compared to a hissing [zvasati] hamsa awake at dawn, or RV 9.32.3 where Indra is compared to a hamsa inciting his flock to bellow [avIvazat]. These and other passages allude to two other important features of the hamsa in the RV: besides being a solar bird, the hamsa is also a royal bird, and a very vocal one. Mostly, however, the term hamsa in the RV is plural and is used in comparisons: the Maruts are compared to hamsas [7.59.7], as are the Angirases [10.67.3] and [at 9.97.8] an otherwise unknown clan, the VRSagaNas [see Mayrhofer's Personnennamen in RV, p.87]. At RV 1.163.10 [an azvastuti] the celestial horses are compared to a flock of hamsas in flight formation. At 7.59.7 hamsas are said to have dark blue backs [nIlapRSTha]. AVS 6.12.1 refers to a hamsa awake at night, unlike other creatures. At AVS 10.8.18 the hamsa is said to be yellow. Because of its genre, the RV for the most part does not offer naturalistic images of the hamsa. Because of its genre, the AV tends to refer to hamsa within lists of other birds and animals. In later Vedic noteworthy passages are KS 38.1 [MS 3.2.6; VS 19.74; TB 2.6.2.1] where the hamsa is said to be able to separate Soma from the waters [later it is said to be able to sort milk from water-- see Vedic Index]. There is an explicit identification of the hamsa and the sun at ShBr 6.7.3.11. Besides the passages mentioned earlier in this discussion, the Upanishads quote RV 4.40.5, and the golden person [hiraNmaya puruSa] is referred to as the ekahamsa [elsewhere eka hamsa]. Note the role of talking geese in the story of Raikva [a homeless man, with sores on his body, who lives under a cart]. In ChUp 4.7 various animals, including a hamsa, teach SatyakAma portions of a brahman [neuter]. To be brief, for Upanishadic references see 'goose' in the index to Olivelle's translation. It seems to me that this evidence suggests that the Vedic clans were quite familiar with the hamsa, considered it a solar figure as well as a royal one, and were very impressed by its vocalizations. As a result, starting from the RV and continuing throughout the tradition, numerous Vedic gods were compared to hamsas and the hamsa himself was thereby divinized. Perhaps this quick overview is of some use to the list's non-Vedicists. George Thompson From kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE Wed Apr 22 10:29:17 2009 From: kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE (=?utf-8?Q?petra_kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 09 12:29:17 +0200 Subject: pramanas In-Reply-To: <1252.62.47.138.238.1240392703.squirrel@srvc1.oeaw.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227085951.23782.8931401369855813783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, thanks to all who commented on the pramanas till now. The terms are in Pali (I only gave the Skt. terms for convenience), the expression is paccakkh?num?nasaddatth?pattippabhedassa pam??acatukass?paricc?g?, and it is to be found in Vajirabuddhi| s Vajirabuddhi??k? (Cha??hasa?g?yana edition 3,22-23), i.e. in an undated subcommentary on the Vinaya. Vajirabuddhi here comments on the expression catukkam aparicc?g?, which forms part of a verse given by him in the very beginning of the text, and characterizing a vatt? (vakt?). In Pali this verse to my knowledge is documented only a second time in the 9th century Mah?niddesa-A??hakath?, and only these two texts comment on it. The Vajirabuddhi??k? gives three explanations, one of wich is the pram??a-tetrad. The Nidd-a has two identical explanations, only the pram??a-tetrad is missing. The mentioning of four pram??as is certainely conditioned by the catukka? of the verse. However, I thought it highly unlikely that the author invented this list, and I hoped it would throw some light on his background and perhaps time (between 9th and 12th century), who possibly enjoyed a Sanskrit education, perhaps in South India. Petra Am 22.04.2009 um 11:31 schrieb Vincent Eltschinger: > Dear Petra, > Though I am also very curious about the context where this list > occurs, > let me say that it does not match other, pre-epistemological lists > (from > Dignaaga onwards, late Buddhist philosophers accept only two > pramaa.nas, > i.e., pratyak.sa and anumaana). In what appears to be the earliest > Buddhist "dialectical" text, the "hetuvidyaa section" of the > Yogaacaarabhuumi, only pratyak.sa is explicitly said to be a > pramaa.na, > but other items have the same function (to provide arguments for the > reason): anumaana, aaptopade'sa (= 'sabda), similarity and > dissimilarity > (to be treated as one or two elements). In the *Upaayah.rdaya > (preserved > in Chinese only, and retranslated into Sanskrit by Giuseppe Tucci), > the > list provided matches the Naiyaayika one: pratyak.sa, anumaana, > aaptopade'sa, and upamaana. However, the Buddhist > "idealists" (Asa.nga in > the Abhidharmasamuccaya, Vasubandhu in the Abhidharmako'sabhaa.sya, > in the > Vyaakhyaayukti and probably, contra Frauwallner, in the Vaadavidhi) > generally reckon three pramaa.nas: pratyak.sa, anumaana, and > aaptopade'sa. > As far as I know, then, arthaapatti does not occur in the available > Buddhist works concerned with pramaa.nas. > Yours sincerly, > Vincent Eltschinger > >> Dear All, >> >> I've got a list of four pram??as in a P?li text, these are: >> >> pratyak?a >> anum?na >> ?abda >> arth?patti >> >> Can anybody tell me, whether these four are typical for specific >> branches of Buddhist philosophy or perhaps other Indian philosophies? >> >> Would be grateful for any information, >> Petra Kieffer-P?lz >> >> ************** >> Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz >> Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 >> 99423 Weimar >> Germany >> Tel. 03643/770447 >> kiepue at t-online.de >> ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de From j.jurewicz at UW.EDU.PL Wed Apr 22 10:37:48 2009 From: j.jurewicz at UW.EDU.PL (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 09 12:37:48 +0200 Subject: ha.msa in parama-ha.msa and ha.msa-sa.mde/sa In-Reply-To: <534120.61387.qm@web8601.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085954.23782.8380428497766979764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RV 10.124.9 b?bhats??n?? say?ja? ha?s?m ?hur ap??? divy??n?? sakhiy? c?rantam anu???bham ?nu carc?ry?m??am ?ndra? n? cikyu? kav?yo man???? and RV 4.40.5 ha?s?? ?uci??d v?sur antarik?as?d dh?t? vedi??d ?tithir duro?as?t nr???d varas?d r?tas?d v?omas?d abj??goj??r?taj??adrij??r?t?m The first one describes in this way Indra identified with the sun; the second one describes the horse DadhikrA'van identified with the sun and Agni. In both cases 'swan' refers to the divine being who is in the sky or in the space. At RV 10.124.9 the god is cognised by the seers, at RV 4.40.5 the horse remains within men (nr???d) which also implies possibility of its cognition (if not its ontic presence within human beings). Best Joanna Jurewicz Dipak Bhattacharya pisze: > The following is relevant to the LP story mentioned by Christophe Vielle > > ?kam p??dam no?t khidati salil??d dhamsa? ucca?ran/ yad anga tam utkhidet naiv?dya na ;sva.h sy?n na r?tr? n?ha.h sy?n na vy ucchet kad? cana > t etc. (AVS 11.4.21; AVP 16.23.1). The swan is divine and also the connection between heaven and earth. This should be the earliest expression of the Brahm?-Swan complex. I shall be glad to know of any other instance known to anyone > Best for all > DB > > --- On Wed, 22/4/09, George Thompson wrote: > > > From: George Thompson > Subject: Re: ha.msa in parama-ha.msa and ha.msa-sa.mde/sa > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Wednesday, 22 April, 2009, 7:44 AM > > > Dear List, > > I am sure that some of the previously mentioned books refer to the Vedic material regarding hamsa, but maybe it will be useful to those who don't have access to the earlier literature to mention these Vedic facts: > > The puranic and late upanisidic texts mentioned in earlier posts have clear antecedents in earlier Vedic. These Vedic antecedents include not only the oldest upanisads [BAU, ChU], as well as later upanisads [KaU & ShvetU] but many YV texts as well [KS, MS, VS, TB]. But even in oldest Vedic [RV] the term hamsa is already well-attested [16 times] and in every stratum of the RV. > What is evident from this evidence is this: > > Iranian attestations of the Indo-European word, which is attested in Latin 'anser', Germ.' Gans', etc., are tenuous. But Indo-European origins of this word nevertheless seems secure. Of course, these linguistic origins do not tell us what sort of bird the Sanskrit term hamsa refers to, but they do suggest > > > > Christophe Vielle wrote: > >> There is also the story of God Brahmaa going to the top of the sky in the shape of a ha.msa (looking for the end of the li;nga, while Vi.s.nu goes under the Earth in the shape of a boar) as reminded by Puur.nasarasvatii: >> >> ruupa.m bibhran na.ta iva sakhe rocamaa.na.m tvadiiya.m >> maatu.m dhaataa madanadamanajyotir uurdhva.m gato 'bhuut | 7ab >> >> (the story is at least told in Li;ngaP 1,17,5-52) >> >> I wonder what are the oldest (textual or iconographical) sources for the ha.msa(s) as vehicle of Brahmaa, and what is the original symbolical relationship between the god and the bird. >> >> >> Christophe Vielle >> > > > > Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ > From KiePue at T-ONLINE.DE Wed Apr 22 11:01:34 2009 From: KiePue at T-ONLINE.DE (=?utf-8?Q?petra_kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 09 13:01:34 +0200 Subject: pramana Message-ID: <161227085956.23782.882830569352727226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In other Pali texts we have the list (as a commentary on anum???dipa?ikkhepo), anum?na-atth?patti-?di-ppa?ikkhepo (??k? on the A?guttaranik?ya, II 154) respectively anum?na-upam?na- atth?patti-?di-pa?ikkhepo (D?ghanik?ya??k?, PTS ed., 307; Majjhimanik?ya??k? II 150, S?ratthad?pan? I 323). Addition: the author of the Vajirabuddhitika uses atth?pattisiddha (proven by implication) once as an argument, why something had not been expressed. Petra ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Wed Apr 22 12:01:02 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (Eli Franco) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 09 14:01:02 +0200 Subject: AW: pramanas In-Reply-To: <1252.62.47.138.238.1240392703.squirrel@srvc1.oeaw.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227085961.23782.2082588225579590824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Petra, The Spitzer Manuscript also lists the four pramanas as in the *Upayahrdaya/*Prayogsaara. Most probably some Sarvaastivadins accepted these four. The critique of Nagarjuna in the Vigrahavyaavartanii against the same four pramansa is probably addressed against these Buddhists. Best wishes, Eli -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Im Auftrag von Vincent Eltschinger Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. April 2009 11:32 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Re: pramanas Dear Petra, Though I am also very curious about the context where this list occurs, let me say that it does not match other, pre-epistemological lists (from Dignaaga onwards, late Buddhist philosophers accept only two pramaa.nas, i.e., pratyak.sa and anumaana). In what appears to be the earliest Buddhist "dialectical" text, the "hetuvidyaa section" of the Yogaacaarabhuumi, only pratyak.sa is explicitly said to be a pramaa.na, but other items have the same function (to provide arguments for the reason): anumaana, aaptopade'sa (= 'sabda), similarity and dissimilarity (to be treated as one or two elements). In the *Upaayah.rdaya (preserved in Chinese only, and retranslated into Sanskrit by Giuseppe Tucci), the list provided matches the Naiyaayika one: pratyak.sa, anumaana, aaptopade'sa, and upamaana. However, the Buddhist "idealists" (Asa.nga in the Abhidharmasamuccaya, Vasubandhu in the Abhidharmako'sabhaa.sya, in the Vyaakhyaayukti and probably, contra Frauwallner, in the Vaadavidhi) generally reckon three pramaa.nas: pratyak.sa, anumaana, and aaptopade'sa. As far as I know, then, arthaapatti does not occur in the available Buddhist works concerned with pramaa.nas. Yours sincerly, Vincent Eltschinger > Dear All, > > I've got a list of four pram?????as in a P??li text, these are: > > pratyak???a > anum??na > ??abda > arth??patti > > Can anybody tell me, whether these four are typical for specific > branches of Buddhist philosophy or perhaps other Indian philosophies? > > Would be grateful for any information, > Petra Kieffer-P??lz > > ************** > Dr. Petra Kieffer-P??lz > Wilhelm-K??lz-Str. 2 > 99423 Weimar > Germany > Tel. 03643/770447 > kiepue at t-online.de > From vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU Wed Apr 22 10:18:37 2009 From: vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU (Viktoria Lyssenko) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 09 14:18:37 +0400 Subject: pramanas In-Reply-To: <49eedf75.22f.38e9.1967609500@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: <161227085949.23782.8424748039324450839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Elisa, It looks like Mimamsa to me because of the arthapatti introduced, as far as I know, in this school (though later accepted by Vedanta). A Buddhist author of this Pali text may just mention some (most important) pramanas of Mimamsa, not giving a full formal list. It will be very important to know more about this Pali text. Victoria > Dear Professor Lysenko, > why Mimamsa? I only know Mimamsa lists including upamana > (though not using it very much) and (if Bhatta) > abhavapramana. See, e.g., 'Sabara ad 1.1.4: > pratyak.sapuurvakatvaac caanumaanopamaanaarthaapattiinaam > apy akaara.natvam. abhaavo 'pi naasti. > Are you aware of a Mimamsa list non including upamana? > thanks, > yours elisa freschi > > assegnista di ricerca "Indian Philsophies and Religions" > faculty of Oriental Studies > via Principe Amedeo > university "Sapienza" Rome, Italy > > ----- Original Message ----- > Da : Viktoria Lyssenko > A : INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Oggetto : Re: pramanas > Data : Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:10:44 +0400 > > > It looks like Mimamsa pramanas. What is your Pali text? > > > > Victoria Lysenko > > > Dear All, > > > > > > I've got a list of four pram??as in a > P?li text, > > > these are: > > > pratyak?a > > > anum?na > > > ?abda > > > arth?patti > > > > > > Can anybody tell me, whether these four are typical for > > > specific branches of Buddhist philosophy or perhaps > > > other Indian philosophies? > > > Would be grateful for any information, > > > Petra Kieffer-P?lz > > > > > > ************** > > > Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz > > > Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 > > > 99423 Weimar > > > Germany > > > Tel. 03643/770447 > > > kiepue at t-online.de > ??????.?????. > ???? ?? > ?????? > > http://mail.yandex.ru/nospam ??????.????? - ????????? ????? ? ?????????? ??????????: http://mail.ya.ru From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Apr 22 11:11:43 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 09 16:41:43 +0530 Subject: ha.msa in parama-ha.msa and ha.msa-sa.mde/sa Message-ID: <161227085959.23782.8158851531400270169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks! The imagery of hamsa is of course Rgvedic. The sun too is in picture there. But I did not find hamsa as the binder of the material world and the divine one before the AV verse cited. There is an implied theoretical comprehension of two interdependent?worlds along with hamsa playing a unique role that makes the AV concept look theologically more developed.? DB? --- On Wed, 22/4/09, Joanna Jurewicz wrote: From: Joanna Jurewicz Subject: Re: ha.msa in parama-ha.msa and ha.msa-sa.mde/sa To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 22 April, 2009, 4:07 PM RV 10.124.9 b?bhats??n?? say?ja? ha?s?m ?hur ap??? divy??n?? sakhiy? c?rantam anu???bham ?nu carc?ry?m??am ?ndra? n? cikyu? kav?yo man???? and RV 4.40.5 ha?s?? ?uci??d v?sur antarik?as?d dh?t? vedi??d ?tithir duro?as?t nr???d varas?d r?tas?d v?omas?d abj??goj??r?taj??adrij??r?t?m The first one describes in this way Indra identified with the sun; the second one describes the horse DadhikrA'van identified with the sun and Agni. In both cases 'swan' refers to the divine being who is in the sky or in the space. At RV 10.124.9 the god is cognised by the seers, at RV 4.40.5 the horse remains within men (nr???d) which also implies possibility of its cognition (if not its ontic presence within human beings). Best Joanna Jurewicz Dipak Bhattacharya pisze: > The following is relevant to the LP story mentioned by Christophe Vielle > > ?kam p??dam no?t khidati salil??d dhamsa? ucca?ran/ yad anga tam utkhidet naiv?dya na ;sva.h sy?n na r?tr? n?ha.h sy?n na vy ucchet kad? cana > t etc. (AVS 11.4.21; AVP 16.23.1). The swan is divine and also the connection between heaven and earth. This should be the earliest expression of the Brahm?-Swan complex. I shall be glad to know of any other instance known to anyone > Best for all > DB > > --- On Wed, 22/4/09, George Thompson wrote: > > > From: George Thompson > Subject: Re: ha.msa in parama-ha.msa and ha.msa-sa.mde/sa > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Wednesday, 22 April, 2009, 7:44 AM > > > Dear List, > > I am sure that some of the previously mentioned books refer to the Vedic material regarding hamsa, but maybe it will be useful to those who don't have access to the earlier literature to mention these Vedic facts: > > The puranic and late upanisidic texts mentioned in earlier posts have clear antecedents in earlier Vedic.? These Vedic antecedents include not only the oldest upanisads [BAU, ChU], as well as later upanisads [KaU & ShvetU] but many YV texts as well [KS, MS, VS, TB].???But even in oldest Vedic [RV] the term hamsa? is already well-attested [16 times] and in every stratum of the RV. > What is evident from this evidence is this: > > Iranian attestations of the Indo-European word, which is attested in Latin 'anser', Germ.' Gans', etc., are tenuous.? But Indo-European origins of this word nevertheless seems secure.? Of course, these linguistic origins do not tell us what sort of bird the Sanskrit term hamsa refers to, but they do suggest > > > > Christophe Vielle wrote: > >> There is also the story of God Brahmaa going to the top of the sky in the shape of a ha.msa (looking for the end of the li;nga, while Vi.s.nu goes under the Earth in the shape of a boar) as reminded by Puur.nasarasvatii: >> >> ruupa.m bibhran na.ta iva sakhe rocamaa.na.m tvadiiya.m >> maatu.m dhaataa madanadamanajyotir uurdhva.m gato 'bhuut | 7ab >> >> (the story is at least told in Li;ngaP 1,17,5-52) >> >> I wonder what are the oldest (textual or iconographical) sources for the ha.msa(s) as vehicle of Brahmaa, and what is the original symbolical relationship between the god and the bird. >> >> >> Christophe Vielle >> > > > >? ? ???Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Apr 22 18:35:35 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 09 00:05:35 +0530 Subject: ha.msa in parama-ha.msa and ha.msa-sa.mde/sa Message-ID: <161227085965.23782.15661957264921338221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the detailed information in one place. I wonder how one can relate the RV concepts?to the later concept of 1.Sarasvati being carried by a swan (reminiscent of?S's connection with Brahmaa, her?father) 2.Paramahamsa as denoting 'one of supreme spiritual attainment'. The AV passage can serve as a link. DB --- On Wed, 22/4/09, George Thompson wrote: From: George Thompson Subject: Re: ha.msa in parama-ha.msa and ha.msa-sa.mde/sa To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 22 April, 2009, 9:52 PM Dear List, I apologize for sending an incomplete message to the list last night.? It was intended to go to the Save box.? I have been rather too busy of late.? Thank you to Deepak Bhattacharya for replying with the AV passage and to Joanna Jurevich for continuing my train of thought.? RV 10.124.9 & 4.40.5 were certainly on my mind.? Other RV passages also seem to predate AVS 11.4.21/AVP 16.23.1: see RV 1.65.9 where Agni is compared to a hissing [zvasati] hamsa awake at dawn, or RV 9.32.3 where Indra is compared to a hamsa inciting his flock to bellow [avIvazat].? These and other passages allude to two other important features of the hamsa in the RV: besides being a solar bird, the hamsa is also a royal bird, and a very vocal one. Mostly, however, the term hamsa in the RV is plural and is used in comparisons: the Maruts are compared to hamsas [7.59.7], as are the Angirases [10.67.3] and [at 9.97.8] an otherwise unknown clan, the VRSagaNas [see Mayrhofer's Personnennamen in RV, p.87].? At RV 1.163.10 [an azvastuti] the celestial horses are compared to a flock of hamsas in flight? formation.? At 7.59.7 hamsas are said to have dark blue backs [nIlapRSTha].???AVS 6.12.1 refers to a hamsa awake at night, unlike other creatures.? At AVS 10.8.18 the hamsa is said to be yellow. Because of its genre, the RV for the most part does not offer naturalistic images of the hamsa.? Because of its genre, the AV tends to refer to hamsa within lists of other birds and animals. In later Vedic noteworthy passages are KS 38.1 [MS 3.2.6; VS 19.74; TB 2.6.2.1] where the hamsa is said to be able to separate Soma from the waters [later it is said to be able to sort milk from water-- see Vedic Index].? There is an explicit identification of the hamsa and the sun at ShBr 6.7.3.11.? Besides the passages mentioned earlier in this discussion, the Upanishads quote RV 4.40.5, and the golden person [hiraNmaya puruSa] is referred to as the ekahamsa [elsewhere eka hamsa].? Note the role of talking geese in the story of Raikva [a homeless man, with sores on his body, who lives under a cart].? In ChUp 4.7 various animals, including a hamsa, teach SatyakAma portions of a brahman [neuter].? To be brief, for Upanishadic references see 'goose' in the index to Olivelle's translation. It seems to me that this evidence suggests that the Vedic clans were quite familiar with the hamsa, considered it a solar figure as well as a royal one, and were very impressed by its vocalizations.? As a result, starting from the RV and continuing throughout the tradition, numerous Vedic gods were compared to hamsas and the hamsa himself was thereby divinized. Perhaps this quick overview is of some use to the list's non-Vedicists. George Thompson Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/ From fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 24 18:10:12 2009 From: fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 09 14:10:12 -0400 Subject: Artificial Intelligence Cracks 4,000-Year-Old Mystery In-Reply-To: <49F1F299.6010203@asiatica.org> Message-ID: <161227085970.23782.3173708970696922030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, As Enrica Garzilli's post was also cross-listed to the Eurasian list, I will post my comments from there as well in this forum: There is a lot of media spin-off from the Rao, et al piece, but little by way of analysis of the data therein. The suggestion that Rao, "may have solved the language-versus-symbol question" is dubious in as much as Rao's analysis compares the ivc script to dna and batcterial protein sequences - which have nothing to do with scripts or symbols ("tokens" as they call them) - the analysis is thus skewed in my view. This of course, in addition to the notable construction of the type 1 and 2 sequences that are entirely fabricated and don't have any actual resonance with the ivc symbols or to other actual systems of proto-script (you have to read Rao, et. al, supplementary material to understand this). If anyone would like a copy of the Rao article and their supplementary analysis (where the actual work they did is contained). I would be happy to send them off-list so that you may evaluate the material for yourselves! The rebuttal to the Rao, et. al. paper by Farmer, Witzel, and Sproat can be accessed here: http://www.safarmer.com/Refutation3.pdf To be sure, the Rao, et.al study is dependant on an article by Claude Shannon "A Mathematical Theory of Communication," in The Bell System Technical Journal 27 (1948), pp 379-423 and 623-656. E.g., their employment of the phrase: "conditional entropy." Rao, et.al., however, don't even bother to give the title of this article in their bibliography. The Shannon article is available here (see esp. pp. 14-15 of that study): http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/shannon1948.pdf Such media spin-offs, as contained in the Wired article, that do not delve deeply into the analysis are more harmful than they are informative, in my view. Best Wishes, BF On 4/24/09 1:10 PM, "Enrica Garzilli" wrote: > I want just to point out this post of April 23 on the Indus Valley C. in > one of the most important technology magazines, *Wired*: > http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/indusscript.html > > Best, > > Enrica Garzilli > -- Benjamin Fleming Mellon Post-doctoral Fellow, Dept. of Religious Studies University of Pennsylvania 249 S. 36th Street; Claudia Cohen Hall, #234 Philadelphia, PA 19104 U.S.A. Telephone - 215-746-7792 From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Apr 24 21:44:36 2009 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 09 17:44:36 -0400 Subject: On Indus Civ. signs Message-ID: <161227085972.23782.2184664933751719977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, A propos yesterday's SCIENCE article "Entropic Evidence for Linguistic Structure in the Indus Script." By Rajesh P. N. Rao, Nisha Yadav, Mayank N. Vahia, Hrishikesh Joglekar, R. Adhikari and Iravatham Mahadevan. Science, Vol. 324 Issue 5926, April 24, 2009. (In the Brevia section: Published Online April 23, 2009; Science DOI: 10.1126/science.1170391) This less than 2 page paper is based on *invented* data; however, this fact appears only if you actually read the additional materials, not easily available, unless you have a subscription: Its conclusions about 'script', language, etc. therefore are baseless, wrong and misleading: Garbage in, garbage out, as has been reported by www.newscientist.com. Instead, see our (S. Farmer, R. Sproat, M. Witzel) brief refutation, published on the same day as the Rao paper, at: ---------- SOME INITIAL DETAILS: Rao et al. somehow managed to get through the review process at Science, though it took them 4 months to do so. They did so by failing to indicate in their paper proper that their "representative examples of nonlinguistic signs" are *made-up* corpora. These "non-linguistic signs" lie at the center of their argument (i.e., that Indus signs are *not* nonlinguistic). But, their Type 1 and Type 2 systems of signs (tokens) are radically different from anything found in the real world. If they had said that openly in their paper the paper would never have been published. And, if the press releases had noted that people would not have been misled. Instead, they barely indicate the "assumed" nature of their data, and this only in their online "Supplemental Information", which very few people will see -- and certainly not those who merely follow the current news and internet tsunami. If they had calculated the 'conditional entropy' (certain signs necessarily following others) of ANY *real* nonlinguistic symbol system, they would instead have found that there are frequent statistical overlaps with linguistic systems. Not unexpectedly also with the Indus symbols. In fact, real world nonlinguistic signs will fall somewhere in the middle: no sign system is either totally disordered or totally disordered. We (Farmer, Sproat, WItzel) have already shown precisely that for symbol frequencies in our 2004 paper that they supposedly refute. See: (see the chart on p. 27) Again, if they had calculated the entropy of any genuine, not made up, "representative nonlinguistic symbols" they would have found that they looked much like writing as well. Take a look the Scottish heraldic signs in our paper. ----- There are many more technical arguments than the ones we list in our little Refutation -- involving gross misuse of the concept of conditional entropy, language structure, attestation and localization of ancient Sumerian, Vedic and Tamil, etc. -- that we can lay out in a little piece later. In the margin: the Rao, et al. paper is depends on an article by Claude Shannon "A Mathematical Theory of Communication," in The Bell System Technical Journal 27 (1948), pp 379-423 and 623-656. See the employment of the phrase: "conditional entropy." Rao, et.al., however, do not even bother to give the title of this article in their bibliography. The Shannon article is available here (see esp. pp. 14-15 of that study): http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/shannon1948.pdf More to come SOON. ---------- Amusingly, even A. Parpola, who has spent most of his career on the 'decipherment' of the Indus signs, the so-called Indus script, comments: "It's a useful paper," said University of Helsinki archaeologist Asko Parpola, an authority on Indus scripts, "but it doesn't really further our understanding of the script." Parpola said the primary obstacle confronting decipherers of fragmentary Indus scripts ? the difficulty of testing their hypotheses ? remains unchanged." (see: ) And the Guardian, in rather garbled fashion, has him say: ""Language is one of the hallmarks of a literate civilisation. If it's real writing, we have a chance to know their language and to get to know more about their religion and other aspects of their culture. We don't have any literature from the region that can be understood." To my mind at least, language is a hallmark of ANY human culture, whether hunter-gatherer or state society... Others however, who too have been heavily involved in this futile exercise, such as the Indus archaeologist M. Kenoyer, are even less cautious: "J. Mark Kenoyer, a linguist at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, says Rao's paper is worth publishing, but time will tell if the technique sheds light on the nature of Indus script. "At present they are lumping more than 700 years of writing into one data set," he says. "I am actually going to be working with them on the revised analysis, and we will see how similar or different it is from the current results." None of them, apparently, has read the supplementary materails carefully. O si tacuisses... I will tell him so in our May Round Table at Kyoto, where Indus specialists will get together from Japan, S. Asia, America. Perhaps he will then rethink this "working together" with them... By the way, Kenoyer is an earth digging archaeologist, not a linguist -- not by any stretch of imagination :^) Conclusion: read the "footnotes" carefully, not the hype. Cheers! MW ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line: 617- 496 2990 From garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG Fri Apr 24 17:10:49 2009 From: garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 09 19:10:49 +0200 Subject: Artificial Intelligence Cracks 4,000-Year-Old Mystery Message-ID: <161227085967.23782.6226878233967773349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I want just to point out this post of April 23 on the Indus Valley C. in one of the most important technology magazines, *Wired*: http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/indusscript.html Best, Enrica Garzilli From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Apr 25 02:32:41 2009 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 09 22:32:41 -0400 Subject: Garbage in, garbage out Message-ID: <161227085975.23782.11787801390014072210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, Differently from English language news and blogs (so far), here a useful, even objective summary of the controversy about the so-called Indus script. Will translate some sections next week. Any volunteers? M.WItzel Eine uralte Streitschrift R?tselhafte Indus-Symbole sollen doch Schrift sein Jan D?nges ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line: 617- 496 2990 From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Sat Apr 25 07:09:30 2009 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 09 00:09:30 -0700 Subject: On Sarasvati as mighty glacier fed river ... (was: Re: On Indus Civ. signs) Message-ID: <161227085980.23782.9728397820066652925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Michael, This and the German article of your next message contain nothing new but are, indeed, interesting exercises in rhetorics. Since "even" you seem to accept that the Sarasvati "once upon a time" was a mighty river almost as big as the Indus, the following research (publ. in Current Science 2004 vol. 87, no. 8) would in my view deserve more critical attention. Acording to it the Ghaggar (even by you identified as the [late] Sarasvati of Vedic texts) NEVER WAS A SNOW FED RIVER because "Sr and Nd isotopic composition of the Ghaggar alluvium as well as Thar Desert sediments suggests a Sub-Himalayan sediment source, with no contribution from the glaciated regions". According to a friend in archeology who has nothing to do with the Sarasvati debate (and does not work on South Asia) the research looks solid and the conclusion compelling. Are there any comments, discussions on this, as it seems, quite crucial research? Or has it been overlooked as it does not conveniently suit any party's rhetorics? An earlier research by Y. Enzel, et al. on Holocene environmental changes in the Thar desert (Science 284, 125 (1999)) perhaps points in the same direction. Jan ? *** ? Received 12 March 2004; revised accepted 14 June 2004 Is River Ghaggar, Saraswati? Geochemical constraints Jayant K. Tripathi1,*, Barbara Bock2, V. Rajamani1 and A. Eisenhauer2 1School of Environmental Sciences, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi 110 067, India 2IFM-GEOMAR, Leibniz-Institut f?r Meereswissenschaften, Wischhofstrasse, 1-3, D-24148 Kiel, Germany The identity of the river along which the famous Harappan Civilization developed and the causes of the demise of this culture are topics of considerable debate. Many of the Harappan sites are located along the ephemeral Ghaggar river within the Thar Desert *For correspondence. (e-mail: jktrip at yahoo.com) CURRENT SCIENCE, VOL. 87, NO. 8, 25 OCTOBER 2004 *** On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:44 PM, Michael Witzel wrote: Dear All, A propos yesterday's SCIENCE article ?"Entropic Evidence for Linguistic Structure in the Indus Script." By Rajesh P. N. Rao, Nisha Yadav, Mayank N. Vahia, Hrishikesh Joglekar, R. Adhikari and Iravatham Mahadevan. Science, Vol. 324 Issue 5926, April 24, 2009.? (In the Brevia section: Published Online April 23, 2009; Science DOI: 10.1126/science.1170391) This less than 2 page paper is based on *invented* data;? however, this fact appears only if you actually read the additional materials, not easily available, unless you have a subscription: Its conclusions about 'script', language, etc. therefore are baseless, wrong and misleading: Garbage in, garbage out, as? has been reported by www.newscientist.com.. Instead, see our (S. Farmer, R. Sproat, M. Witzel) brief refutation, published on the same day as the Rao paper, at: ---------- SOME INITIAL DETAILS: Rao et al. somehow managed to get through the review process at Science, though it took them 4 months to do so. They did so by failing to indicate in their? paper proper that their "representative examples of nonlinguistic signs"? are *made-up* corpora..? These "non-linguistic signs" lie at the center of their argument (i..e., that Indus signs are *not*? nonlinguistic).? But, their Type 1 and Type 2 systems of signs (tokens) are radically different from anything found in the real world. If they had said that openly in their paper the paper would never have been published. And, if the press releases had noted that people would not? have been misled. Instead, they barely indicate the "assumed" nature of their data, and this only in their online "Supplemental Information", which very few people will see -- and certainly not those who merely follow the current news and internet tsunami. If they had calculated the 'conditional entropy' (certain signs necessarily following others) of ANY *real* nonlinguistic symbol system, they would instead have found that there are frequent statistical overlaps with linguistic systems. Not unexpectedly also with the Indus symbols. In fact, real world nonlinguistic signs will fall somewhere in the middle: no sign system is either totally disordered or totally disordered. We (Farmer, Sproat, WItzel) have already shown precisely that for symbol frequencies in our 2004 paper that they supposedly refute. See:? (see the chart on p. 27) Again, if they had calculated the entropy of any genuine, not made up, "representative nonlinguistic symbols" they would have found that they looked much like writing as well. Take a look the? Scottish heraldic signs in our paper. ----- There are many more technical arguments than the ones we list in our little Refutation -- involving gross misuse of the concept of conditional entropy, language structure, attestation and localization of ancient Sumerian, Vedic and Tamil, etc.? -- that we can lay out in a little piece later. In the margin: the? Rao, et al. paper is depends on an article by Claude Shannon "A Mathematical Theory of Communication," in The Bell System Technical Journal 27 (1948), pp 379-423 and 623-656. See the employment of the phrase: "conditional entropy." Rao, et.al., however, do not even bother to give the title of this article in their bibliography. The Shannon article is available here (see esp. pp. 14-15 of that study): http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/shannon1948.pdf More to come SOON. ---------- Amusingly, even A. Parpola, who has spent most of his career on the 'decipherment' of the Indus signs, the? so-called Indus script, comments: "It's a useful paper," said University of Helsinki archaeologist Asko Parpola, an authority on Indus scripts, "but it doesn't really further our understanding of the script." Parpola said the primary obstacle confronting decipherers of fragmentary Indus scripts ? the difficulty of testing their hypotheses ? remains unchanged." (see:? ) And the Guardian, in rather garbled fashion, has him say: ""Language is one of the hallmarks of a literate civilisation. If it's real writing, we have a chance to know their language and to get to know more about their religion and other aspects of their culture. We don't have any literature from the region that can be understood." To my mind at least, language is a hallmark of ANY human culture, whether hunter-gatherer or state society... Others however, who too have? been heavily involved in this futile exercise, such as the Indus archaeologist M. Kenoyer, are even less cautious: "J. Mark Kenoyer, a linguist at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, says Rao's paper is worth publishing, but time will tell if the technique sheds light on the nature of Indus script. "At present they are lumping more than 700 years of writing into one data set," he says. "I am actually going to be working with them on the revised analysis, and we will see how similar or different it is from the current results." None of them, apparently, has read the supplementary materails carefully. O si tacuisses... I will tell him so in our May Round Table at Kyoto, where Indus specialists will get together from Japan, S. Asia, America. Perhaps he will then rethink this "working together" with them... By the way,? Kenoyer is an earth digging archaeologist, not a linguist --? not? by any stretch of imagination :^) Conclusion: read the "footnotes" carefully, not the hype. Cheers! MW ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line:? 617- 496 2990 ? ? -- Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP, A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. JEMHouben at gmail.com www.jyotistoma.nl? ? ? From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Apr 25 11:33:07 2009 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 09 07:33:07 -0400 Subject: On Indus Civ. signs In-Reply-To: <20090425141807.94953uhrigvdsub3@webmail.helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <161227085987.23782.12130948380964674014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> QED of what I said about journalists. Advice : use equal scrutiny with regard to the rest of what they write: Half-understood and sensation-geared. Or brain-dead, as in this case. --- Instead, we will have a *serious* discussion of these points at our 12th Round Table at Kyoto, May 30-31, in front of many archaeologists from the subcontinent, America, Europe and Japan... See: We will report then. Cheers, Michael On Apr 25, 2009, at 7:18 AM, Asko Parpola wrote: > I think the context makes it clear that the Guardian quote should > have been: "Writing is one of the hallmarks of civilization ..." > > Best regards, Asko Parpola > > Michael Witzel wrote: > > Parpola said ... > > And the Guardian, in rather garbled fashion, has him say: > ""Language is one of the hallmarks of a literate civilisation. If > it's real writing, we have a chance to know their language and to > get to know more about their religion and other aspects of their > culture. We don't have any literature from the region that can be > understood." > > To my mind at least, language is a hallmark of ANY human culture, > whether hunter-gatherer or state society... ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line: 617- 496 2990 From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Sat Apr 25 06:51:38 2009 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 09 08:51:38 +0200 Subject: On Sarasvati as mighty glacier fed river ... (was: Re: On Indus Civ. signs) Message-ID: <161227085977.23782.7124273129385959693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Michael, This and the German article of your next message contain nothing new but are, indeed, interesting exercises in rhetorics. Since "even" you seem to accept that the Sarasvati "once upon a time" was a mighty river almost as big as the Indus, the following research (publ. in Current Science 2004 vol. 87, no. 8) would in my view deserve more critical attention. Acording to it the Ghaggar (even by you identified as the [late] Sarasvati of Vedic texts) NEVER WAS A SNOW FED RIVER because "Sr and Nd isotopic composition of the Ghaggar alluvium as well as Thar Desert sediments suggests a Sub-Himalayan sediment source, with no contribution from the glaciated regions". According to a friend in archeology who has nothing to do with the Sarasvati debate (and does not work on South Asia) the research looks solid and the conclusion compelling. Are there any comments, discussions of this, as it seems, quite crucial research? Or has it been overlooked as it does not conveniently suit any party's rhetorics? An earlier research by Y. Enzel, et al. on Holocene environmental changes in the Thar desert (Science 284, 125 (1999)) perhaps points in the same direction. Jan *** Received 12 March 2004; revised accepted 14 June 2004 Is River Ghaggar, Saraswati? Geochemical constraints Jayant K. Tripathi1,*, Barbara Bock2, V. Rajamani1 and A. Eisenhauer2 1School of Environmental Sciences, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi 110 067, India 2IFM-GEOMAR, Leibniz-Institut f?r Meereswissenschaften, Wischhofstrasse, 1-3, D-24148 Kiel, Germany The identity of the river along which the famous Harappan Civilization developed and the causes of the demise of this culture are topics of considerable debate. Many of the Harappan sites are located along the ephemeral Ghaggar river within the Thar Desert *For correspondence. (e-mail: jktrip at yahoo.com) CURRENT SCIENCE, VOL. 87, NO. 8, 25 OCTOBER 2004 *** On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:44 PM, Michael Witzel wrote: > Dear All, > > A propos yesterday's SCIENCE article > > "Entropic Evidence for Linguistic Structure in the Indus Script." > By Rajesh P. N. Rao, Nisha Yadav, Mayank N. Vahia, Hrishikesh Joglekar, R. > Adhikari and Iravatham Mahadevan. Science, Vol. 324 Issue 5926, April 24, > 2009. (In the Brevia section: Published Online April 23, 2009; Science DOI: > 10.1126/science.1170391) > > This less than 2 page paper is based on *invented* data; however, this > fact appears only if you actually read the additional materials, not easily > available, unless you have a subscription: > > > Its conclusions about 'script', language, etc. therefore are baseless, > wrong and misleading: > Garbage in, garbage out, as has been reported by www.newscientist.com. > > Instead, see our (S. Farmer, R. Sproat, M. Witzel) brief refutation, > published on the same day as the Rao paper, at: > > > ---------- > > SOME INITIAL DETAILS: > > Rao et al. somehow managed to get through the review process at Science, > though it took them 4 months to do so. > > They did so by failing to indicate in their paper proper that their > "representative examples of nonlinguistic signs" are *made-up* corpora. > These "non-linguistic signs" lie at the center of their argument (i.e., > that Indus signs are *not* nonlinguistic). But, their Type 1 and Type 2 > systems of signs (tokens) are radically different from anything found in the > real world. > > If they had said that openly in their paper the paper would never have been > published. > And, if the press releases had noted that people would not have been > misled. > > Instead, they barely indicate the "assumed" nature of their data, and this > only in their online "Supplemental Information", which very few people will > see -- and certainly not those who merely follow the current news and > internet tsunami. > > If they had calculated the 'conditional entropy' (certain signs necessarily > following others) of ANY *real* nonlinguistic symbol system, they would > instead have found that there are frequent statistical overlaps with > linguistic systems. Not unexpectedly also with the Indus symbols. In fact, > real world nonlinguistic signs will fall somewhere in the middle: no sign > system is either totally disordered or totally disordered. > > We (Farmer, Sproat, WItzel) have already shown precisely that for symbol > frequencies in our 2004 paper that they supposedly refute. See: < > http://www.safarmer/fsw2.pdf> (see the chart on p. 27) > > Again, if they had calculated the entropy of any genuine, not made up, > "representative nonlinguistic symbols" they would have found that they > looked much like writing as well. Take a look the Scottish heraldic signs > in our paper. > > ----- > > There are many more technical arguments than the ones we list in our little > Refutation -- involving gross misuse of the concept of conditional entropy, > language structure, attestation and localization of ancient Sumerian, Vedic > and Tamil, etc. -- that we can lay out in a little piece later. > > In the margin: the Rao, et al. paper is depends on an article by Claude > Shannon "A Mathematical Theory of Communication," in The Bell System > Technical Journal 27 (1948), pp 379-423 and 623-656. See the employment > of the phrase: "conditional entropy." > Rao, et.al., however, do not even bother to give the title of this article > in their bibliography. The Shannon article is available here (see esp. pp. > 14-15 of that study): > http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/shannon1948.pdf > > > More to come SOON. > > ---------- > > Amusingly, even A. Parpola, who has spent most of his career on the > 'decipherment' of the Indus signs, the so-called Indus script, comments: > > "It's a useful paper," said University of Helsinki archaeologist Asko > Parpola, an authority on Indus scripts, "but it doesn't really further our > understanding of the script." > > Parpola said the primary obstacle confronting decipherers of fragmentary > Indus scripts ? the difficulty of testing their hypotheses ? remains > unchanged." (see: wiredscience/2009/04/indusscript.html>) > > And the Guardian, in rather garbled fashion, has him say: > ""Language is one of the hallmarks of a literate civilisation. If it's real > writing, we have a chance to know their language and to get to know more > about their religion and other aspects of their culture. We don't have any > literature from the region that can be understood." > > To my mind at least, language is a hallmark of ANY human culture, whether > hunter-gatherer or state society... > > Others however, who too have been heavily involved in this futile > exercise, such as the Indus archaeologist M. Kenoyer, are even less > cautious: > > "J. Mark Kenoyer, a linguist at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, says > Rao's paper is worth publishing, but time will tell if the technique sheds > light on the nature of Indus script. "At present they are lumping more than > 700 years of writing into one data set," he says. "I am actually going to be > working with them on the revised analysis, and we will see how similar or > different it is from the current results." < > http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17012- > scholars-at-odds-over-mysterious-indus-script.html> > > None of them, apparently, has read the supplementary materails carefully. O > si tacuisses... > > I will tell him so in our May Round Table at Kyoto, where Indus specialists > will get together from Japan, S. Asia, America. Perhaps he will then rethink > this "working together" with them... > > By the way, Kenoyer is an earth digging archaeologist, not a linguist -- > not by any stretch of imagination :^) > > > Conclusion: read the "footnotes" carefully, not the hype. > Cheers! > MW > > > ============ > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > > Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; > my direct line: 617- 496 2990 > -- Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP, A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. JEMHouben at gmail.com www.jyotistoma.nl From fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Apr 25 15:32:40 2009 From: fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 09 10:32:40 -0500 Subject: Artificial Intelligence Cracks 4,000-Year-Old Mystery In-Reply-To: <49F30569.6010903@asiatica.org> Message-ID: <161227085993.23782.7599279236645817071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Enrica Garzilli, As to your message. Of course it is good to see that there is wide spread interest in the IVC "mystery" of the script, so-called script, etc. I am not sure I quite understand though what you mean by "pretending that news are not spread or articles are not published is only to deny evidence". No such thing was going on. In fact, I have a standing offer to send the Rao, et al article and their supplementary study to anyone who would like to read it off list (I have already had several requests). I am curious to know what your interpretation of the Rao et al study is; thus far you have not offered any analysis of your own but simply provided a link to a popular onlilne journal that focuses on technology. I did, in fact offer some argumentation based on my reading of the Rao, et al article and their supplementary study which, in my opinion, fits within your definition of "right argumentation". Perhaps you would care to focus on my arguments and offer a critique or point to some issue in the Rao, et. al study that I have overlooked? My blinders (as you put it) are indeed off. Certainly the Wired article makes people aware of the issue, as presented by Rao, et al, and certainly they do give links to the non-script thesis by Farmer et. al, (http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2.pdf) and to a Science article that deals with that issue: (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/306/5704/2026). However, they characterize this position as simply, "a paper asserting that the Indus script was nothing more than political and religious symbols." and give no more attention to it despite that fact that, at heart, this is the motivation behind the Rao, et al study. With regards to Rao's analysis, I find it highly curious that protein sequences can be employed as a sample of non-linguistic systems that could be comparable to the model being proposed by Farmer, et al. Obviously the IVC proto-script will show patterns that are closer to actual language than they will to patterns derived from the natural world, the comparison is, in my view, designed to render the conclusion they want. This of course, as has been mentioned already, in addition to the odd fact that they constructed their own non-linguistic system to compare to the IVC proto-script. Is this not stacking the cards to favour their conclusions? Why not use actual examples of ancient non-linguist systems (of the human made variety). Perhaps they did and didn't like the results! In any case, I await your own take and analysis of the Rao, et al study. Best Wishes, Benjamin -- Benjamin Fleming Mellon Post-doctoral Fellow, Dept. of Religious Studies University of Pennsylvania 249 S. 36th Street; Claudia Cohen Hall, #234 Philadelphia, PA 19104 U.S.A. Telephone - 215-746-7792 > Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:43:21 +0200 > From: garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG > Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence Cracks 4,000-Year-Old Mystery > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > A rebuttal to Benjamin Fleming and others, including Michael Witzel: > > 1) My aim was to show that even technology people (Wired is perhaps the > most famous tech magazine -- worldwide) are interested in this topic. > > 2) No harm in information, whatever it is. I think that pretending that > news are not spread or articles are not published is only to deny > evidence. Moreover, it is useless. Wired is really famous. > > 3) There is a fundamental right called right to information, I think it > is enabled also in the USA, isn't it? Mine was just _a piece of > information_. > > 4) Scientists should oppose to media spin-offs by right argumentations, > not being blindfold. Otherwise science will remain for a few scientists > only. > > 5) And article published on Wired make people (intellectuals, although > of a different kind) aware of the problem more than 100,000 scientific > articles published in scientific magazines. > > Best, > > Enrica Garzilli _________________________________________________________________ Internet Explorer 8 helps keep your personal info safe. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9655581 From jmdelire at ULB.AC.BE Sat Apr 25 09:19:54 2009 From: jmdelire at ULB.AC.BE (Jean-Michel Delire) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 09 11:19:54 +0200 Subject: Artificial Intelligence Cracks 4,000-Year-Old Mystery Message-ID: <161227085982.23782.8298359383423792639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleague, I would like to have a copy of Rao's article and supplementary material. Best regards, Dr J.M.Delire, Secretary of the Centre Alta?r for history of science, part-time lecturer on Science and civilization of India, University of Brussels >Dear List, > >As Enrica Garzilli's post was also cross-listed to the Eurasian list, I will >post my comments from there as well in this forum: > >There is a lot of media spin-off from the Rao, et al piece, but little by >way of analysis of the data therein. The suggestion that Rao, "may have >solved the language-versus-symbol question" is dubious in as much as Rao's >analysis compares the ivc script to dna and batcterial protein sequences - >which have nothing to do with scripts or symbols ("tokens" as they call >them) - the analysis is thus skewed in my view. This of course, in addition >to the notable construction of the type 1 and 2 sequences that are entirely >fabricated and don't have any actual resonance with the ivc symbols or to >other actual systems of proto-script (you have to read Rao, et. al, >supplementary material to understand this). > >If anyone would like a copy of the Rao article and their supplementary >analysis (where the actual work they did is contained). I would be happy to >send them off-list so that you may evaluate the material for yourselves! > >The rebuttal to the Rao, et. al. paper by Farmer, Witzel, and Sproat can be >accessed here: >http://www.safarmer.com/Refutation3.pdf > >To be sure, the Rao, et.al study is dependant on an article by Claude >Shannon "A Mathematical Theory of Communication," in The Bell System >Technical Journal 27 (1948), pp 379-423 and 623-656. E.g., their employment >of the phrase: "conditional entropy." Rao, et.al., however, don't even >bother to give the title of this article in their bibliography. The Shannon >article is available here (see esp. pp. 14-15 of that study): >http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/shannon1948.pdf > >Such media spin-offs, as contained in the Wired article, that do not delve >deeply into the analysis are more harmful than they are informative, in my >view. > >Best Wishes, > >BF > >On 4/24/09 1:10 PM, "Enrica Garzilli" wrote: > >> I want just to point out this post of April 23 on the Indus Valley C. in >> one of the most important technology magazines, *Wired*: >> http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/indusscript.html >> >> Best, >> >> Enrica Garzilli >> >-- > >Benjamin Fleming >Mellon Post-doctoral Fellow, Dept. of Religious Studies >University of Pennsylvania >249 S. 36th Street; Claudia Cohen Hall, #234 >Philadelphia, PA 19104 U.S.A. >Telephone - 215-746-7792 > > From asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI Sat Apr 25 11:18:07 2009 From: asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 09 14:18:07 +0300 Subject: On Indus Civ. signs Message-ID: <161227085984.23782.2504622609399681306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think the context makes it clear that the Guardian quote should have been: "Writing is one of the hallmarks of civilization ..." Best regards, Asko Parpola Michael Witzel wrote: Parpola said ... And the Guardian, in rather garbled fashion, has him say: ""Language is one of the hallmarks of a literate civilisation. If it's real writing, we have a chance to know their language and to get to know more about their religion and other aspects of their culture. We don't have any literature from the region that can be understood." To my mind at least, language is a hallmark of ANY human culture, whether hunter-gatherer or state society... From garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG Sat Apr 25 12:43:21 2009 From: garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 09 14:43:21 +0200 Subject: Artificial Intelligence Cracks 4,000-Year-Old Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085990.23782.19052751948311877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A rebuttal to Benjamin Fleming and others, including Michael Witzel: 1) My aim was to show that even technology people (Wired is perhaps the most famous tech magazine -- worldwide) are interested in this topic. 2) No harm in information, whatever it is. I think that pretending that news are not spread or articles are not published is only to deny evidence. Moreover, it is useless. Wired is really famous. 3) There is a fundamental right called right to information, I think it is enabled also in the USA, isn't it? Mine was just _a piece of information_. 4) Scientists should oppose to media spin-offs by right argumentations, not being blindfold. Otherwise science will remain for a few scientists only. 5) And article published on Wired make people (intellectuals, although of a different kind) aware of the problem more than 100,000 scientific articles published in scientific magazines. Best, Enrica Garzilli Benjamin Fleming wrote: > > Such media spin-offs, as contained in the Wired article, that do not delve > deeply into the analysis are more harmful than they are informative, in my > view. > > Best Wishes, > > BF > From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Apr 26 15:41:50 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 09 11:41:50 -0400 Subject: Snail-mail address needed Message-ID: <161227085997.23782.13634175530787078792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, Does anybody have the snail-mail address (preferably residence) to Sheela Verma? She kindly sent me her book Magahi Folklore and Folk Tales and I would like to send her a letter of thanks (in the old- fashioned hand written way). Please reply off list to ssandahl at sympatico.ca! Many thanks! Stella Sandahl -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Apr 26 19:07:30 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 09 12:07:30 -0700 Subject: Rao et al. and the Indus symbol system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086002.23782.6614466987522478031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An influential computational linguist -- Mark Liberman at the University of Pennsylvania -- weighs in on the Rao et al. paper in his widely read blog, which is read world-wide. Liberman uses words as strong as ours (which he quotes) in judging the statistical nonsense in the paper. http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1374 Note that he promises more to follow. We expect that we will have a formal response in Science in the coming weeks as well as at upcoming Indus conferences (e.g., in Kyoto in May). Other linguists we've talked to about the paper plan on submitting their own letters. Everyone is baffled at how this got by the peer reviewers at Science, unless they knew no statistics or just wanted to "stir the pot", as if more of that is needed. Note what Liberman (whom none of us knows personally) says at the end about the amusingly credulous "Wired" article that was posted on this List yesterday: > For now, I'll only register a small complaint about the lede in the > story "Artificial Intelligence Cracks 4,000-Year-Old Mystery", > Wired, 4/23/2009: > >> An ancient script that's defied generations of archaeologists has >> yielded some of its secrets to artificially intelligent computers > > To call a program that counts bigrams and calculates conditional > entropy an "artificially intelligent computer" is ? Well, you'll see. > On Rao's statistical fudging, etc., see Liberman's article and our "Refutation of the Claimed Refutation," to which Liberman provides a link. More on that in print when all of us are free. Best, Steve Farmer From jkirk at SPRO.NET Sun Apr 26 19:29:19 2009 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 09 13:29:19 -0600 Subject: Contact request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086004.23782.581443911119414046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How about macqueen at mcmaster.ca ? Joanna K. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Stephen Hodge Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 1:10 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Contact request Or failing a live email contact, does anybody have a pdf or similar of Part II (I already have Part I) of Prof MacQueen's article "Inspired Speech in Early Mahayana" (Religion 1982) they could forward me ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Hodge" To: "Indology" Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 4:10 PM Subject: Contact request > Dear Colleagues, > > Would anybody happen to have an e-mail contact for Dr Graeme MacQueen ? > Replies off-list, please. > > Many thanks, > Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Sun Apr 26 15:10:37 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 09 16:10:37 +0100 Subject: Contact request Message-ID: <161227085995.23782.4952636235309399820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Would anybody happen to have an e-mail contact for Dr Graeme MacQueen ? Replies off-list, please. Many thanks, Stephen Hodge From acollins at GCI.NET Mon Apr 27 02:21:24 2009 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 09 18:21:24 -0800 Subject: Gautamadharmasutra reference verification In-Reply-To: <49F4AF8E0200006E0001EE2A@collegemail.usc.edu> Message-ID: <161227086010.23782.16901980473194142876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think I may have miscopied a reference and am requesting correction if so. In Gautamadharmasutra I.1-2 Is this correct? vedo dharmamUlam tadvidam ca smRtizIle or is it tadvidAm? Al Collins From jmchugh at COLLEGE.USC.EDU Mon Apr 27 02:01:34 2009 From: jmchugh at COLLEGE.USC.EDU (James McHugh) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 09 19:01:34 -0700 Subject: Anup Sanskrit Library Message-ID: <161227086008.23782.10552131289055744572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, Has anyone had any recent experience of using the Anup Sanskrit Library? I was hoping to go there this summer, and I would appreciate any advice the list members might have concerning this institution. Best wishes, James McHugh James McHugh Assistant Professor Of Religion School of Religion University of Southern California From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Sun Apr 26 19:09:31 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 09 20:09:31 +0100 Subject: Contact request Message-ID: <161227085999.23782.15009935149244911973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Or failing a live email contact, does anybody have a pdf or similar of Part II (I already have Part I) of Prof MacQueen's article "Inspired Speech in Early Mahayana" (Religion 1982) they could forward me ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Hodge" To: "Indology" Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 4:10 PM Subject: Contact request > Dear Colleagues, > > Would anybody happen to have an e-mail contact for Dr Graeme MacQueen ? > Replies off-list, please. > > Many thanks, > Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Sun Apr 26 20:01:47 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 09 21:01:47 +0100 Subject: Contact request Message-ID: <161227086006.23782.2464524290374935225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> OK, thanks everybody. I have now got a pdf copy of the article I wanted. No need now for the e-mail address~ but the MacMaster's one that some of you sent me is dead now ~ Prof MacQueen has retired for some peace and quiet. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Hodge" To: Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 8:09 PM Subject: Re: Contact request > Or failing a live email contact, does anybody have a pdf or similar of > Part II (I already have Part I) of Prof MacQueen's article "Inspired > Speech in Early Mahayana" (Religion 1982) they could forward me ? > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen Hodge" > To: "Indology" > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 4:10 PM > Subject: Contact request > > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> Would anybody happen to have an e-mail contact for Dr Graeme MacQueen ? >> Replies off-list, please. >> >> Many thanks, >> Stephen Hodge From acollins at GCI.NET Mon Apr 27 05:14:44 2009 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 09 21:14:44 -0800 Subject: Fw: Re: Gautamadharmasutra reference verification In-Reply-To: <953248.27331.qm@web8608.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227086016.23782.11489773363605502687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That's what I thought. I had left off the macron in a reference I wrote in my dissertation years ago. Thank you! Al From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon Apr 27 11:57:27 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 04:57:27 -0700 Subject: Professor Asko Parpola on the Indus script In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086026.23782.14490459726002742623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pankaj Jain wrote: > I just came across this paper by Professor Asko Parpola, one of the > leading authorities on Indus Valley Script.... There are no "authorities" on the so-called Indus script, at least not if you take "script" in the linguistic sense, since obviously a lot of people no longer view it as a script. But scholarship isn't a matter of auctoritas, as I see it. > In this paper, he has argued for language being represented by the > Indus > script, which is also argued by Rao et al in their paper published in > Science last week What are those arguments? Do you want to discuss them> Further on Rao et al.: the linguistic community has been very harsh on that paper,and for good reasons: Rao unambiguously made up data at the very center of his argument. I earlier posted the (now much expanded) critique by the computational linguist Mark Liberman, at the U. of Pennsylvania, who quotes us at length; there may be a reason for that: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1374#more-1374 On Liberman, see: http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~myl/ Now another very well-known computational linguist -- Fernando Pereira -- points out why the statistical arguments of Rao's are meaningless. See: http://tinyurl.com/cfj5wo This on Pereira (bio three years old). http://www.cienciahoje.pt/3905 Note that Pereira links to our article on Rao et al. that we wrote in a few hours right as Rao's article was appearing. Our piece has been downloaded over 30,000 times in the last three days, and there are links everywhere. There might be a reason for that. Here's that link, which discusses Rao's invented evidence: http://www.safarmer.com/Refutations3.pdf We end with a little argument about whether this was a "script" or not, and it doesn't use sophisticated statistics. I wonder, Pankaj, what you think about the argument? Here it is: > The implausibility of the view that the so-called Indus script was > true writing is suggested in > many ways that do not require sophisticated analyses. The simplest > argument is the best: the > sheer brevity of the inscriptions. We possess thousands of > inscribed Indus objects on a wide > range of materials. The average inscription is 4-5 symbols long and > the longest, found on a > highly anomalous piece, carries 17. Before our paper, the lack of > real texts was explained away > by invoking the purely speculative image of lost perishable > manuscripts. The speculation was > spurious: we know of hundreds of literate societies, but not of one > that wrote long texts on > perishable materials but failed to do so as well on durable goods. > It is interesting that simple > arguments like this have been ignored by defenders of the > traditional view, who often hold that > view for reasons that have nothing to do with science, while > questions involving the symbols are > obfuscated with complex statistical arguments that when you read > the fine print (and that not in > the paper itself) turn out to depend on invented data. Best wishes, Steve Farmer From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon Apr 27 12:01:13 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 05:01:13 -0700 Subject: Professor Asko Parpola on the Indus script In-Reply-To: <7AC4391A-A848-4926-8EE9-2D827D3A5C5C@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227086029.23782.11480027332128975559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, the last link in my post had a typo in it. Here it is corrected: i > > Here's that link, which discusses Rao's invented evidence: > > http://www.safarmer.com/Refutation3.pdf > > We end with a little argument about whether this was a "script" or > not, and it doesn't use sophisticated statistics. I wonder, Pankaj, > what you think about the argument? Here it is: > >> The implausibility of the view that the so-called Indus script was >> true writing is suggested in >> many ways that do not require sophisticated analyses. The simplest >> argument is the best: the >> sheer brevity of the inscriptions. We possess thousands of >> inscribed Indus objects on a wide >> range of materials. The average inscription is 4-5 symbols long >> and the longest, found on a >> highly anomalous piece, carries 17. Before our paper, the lack of >> real texts was explained away >> by invoking the purely speculative image of lost perishable >> manuscripts. The speculation was >> spurious: we know of hundreds of literate societies, but not of >> one that wrote long texts on >> perishable materials but failed to do so as well on durable goods. >> It is interesting that simple >> arguments like this have been ignored by defenders of the >> traditional view, who often hold that >> view for reasons that have nothing to do with science, while >> questions involving the symbols are >> obfuscated with complex statistical arguments that when you read >> the fine print (and that not in >> the paper itself) turn out to depend on invented data. > > > Best wishes, > Steve Farmer > From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Apr 27 13:34:30 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 06:34:30 -0700 Subject: Indus script In-Reply-To: <007201c9c73a$07489e40$15d9dac0$@greer@auis.org> Message-ID: <161227086034.23782.14160783533254680074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I can't help calling to mind the Beale treasure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beale_ciphers I had a great uncle who spent his entire life searching for this treasure. He once hypnotized someone who claimed he could see the treasure under a tree. He tried to dig it up (fruitlessly), and later learned the landowner almost shot him thinking he was a thief. Fortunately, people searching for the key to the IV symbols? script? writing? are not likely to be shot, though some of the rhetoric makes me wonder. George Hart On Apr 27, 2009, at 6:13 AM, Patricia Greer wrote: > A day before this topic hit our list, I received an e-mail alerting > me to an > article in a British newspaper about Rao's tremendous "breakthrough" > announced in Science -- the e-mail was from the Arya Samaj! I have > no idea > how they got my academic address. > > Patricia Greer From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Apr 27 14:18:28 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 07:18:28 -0700 Subject: Indus script In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086038.23782.4719177112738868223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael -- It seems to me that there is not enough IV "writing" to hope to decipher it -- if in fact it is writing. One possibility is that it a system of symbols that nonetheless contains linguistic components. For example, my name is "Hart," so if I were to design a family device, I'd probably put a heart in it -- or perhaps a deer. In fact, my father did put hearts on the shutters of the house we used to own. So the fact that it may simply be symbols does not necessarily mean that "six fish" doesn't mean Dravidian *caaRu *miin, "six stars," "pleiades," as that might have been a component of someone's name or have something to do with an ancestor's occupation (astrologer?). In any event, without longer "texts" -- which may or may not have ever existed -- I don't see how we can know. George On Apr 27, 2009, at 6:56 AM, Michael Witzel wrote: > George, > > the "rhetoric" is due to the fact that the archaeologists etc. > involved have spent much of their lives and careers(!) on this topic. > > A scientific theory should be just that -- and should be objected to > stringent counterchecks and falsification. > > Another important point is that many cannot imagine a highly > developed civilization as existing without a script that represents > spoken language (such as sentences). > > Well, what about the Inca/Moche etc., or Mexican Highland ones? Or > closer to home, the Bactria-Margiana (Oxus) and E. Iranian Jiroft > ones? I still have to meet someone to deny "high status" to the > Inca civilization. > > In short: built in, pathway dependent views of the 20th century. > > Cheers! > Michael > > PS> About shooting: even that has been threatened, not just > shouting... > > On Apr 27, 2009, at 9:34 AM, George Hart wrote: > >> I can't help calling to mind the Beale treasure: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beale_ciphers >> >> I had a great uncle who spent his entire life searching for this >> treasure. He once hypnotized someone who claimed he could see the >> treasure under a tree. He tried to dig it up (fruitlessly), and >> later learned the landowner almost shot him thinking he was a >> thief. Fortunately, people searching for the key to the IV >> symbols? script? writing? are not likely to be shot, though some of >> the rhetoric makes me wonder. George Hart >> >> On Apr 27, 2009, at 6:13 AM, Patricia Greer wrote: >> >>> A day before this topic hit our list, I received an e-mail >>> alerting me to an >>> article in a British newspaper about Rao's tremendous "breakthrough" >>> announced in Science -- the e-mail was from the Arya Samaj! I >>> have no idea >>> how they got my academic address. >>> >>> Patricia Greer > > ============ > Michael Witzel > witzel at fas.harvard.edu > > > Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street, > Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 > 8571; > my direct line: 617- 496 2990 From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Apr 27 02:58:26 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 08:28:26 +0530 Subject: Gautamadharmasutra reference verification Message-ID: <161227086012.23782.6492783493651805867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Member, My copy of the GDS is somehow missing at present, but only tadvid?m gives a sense. Also cf.?Manu-Sa.mhit? 2.6ab vedo 'khilo dharmam?a.m sm.rti??le ca tadvid?m/ Best for all DB --- On Mon, 27/4/09, Alfred Collins wrote: From: Alfred Collins Subject: Gautamadharmasutra reference verification To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 27 April, 2009, 7:51 AM I think I may have miscopied a reference and am requesting correction if so. In Gautamadharmasutra I.1-2 Is this correct? vedo dharmamUlam tadvidam ca smRtizIle or is it tadvidAm? Al Collins Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Apr 27 03:01:57 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 08:31:57 +0530 Subject: Fw: Re: Gautamadharmasutra reference verification Message-ID: <161227086014.23782.4555962843198037451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- On Mon, 27/4/09, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: Gautamadharmasutra reference verification To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 27 April, 2009, 8:28 AM Dear Member, My copy of the GDS is somehow missing at present, but only tadvid?m gives a sense. Also cf.?Manu-Sa.mhit? 2.6ab vedo 'khilo dharmam?la.m sm.rti??le ca tadvid?m/ Best for all DB --- On Mon, 27/4/09, Alfred Collins wrote: From: Alfred Collins Subject: Gautamadharmasutra reference verification To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 27 April, 2009, 7:51 AM I think I may have miscopied a reference and am requesting correction if so. In Gautamadharmasutra I.1-2 Is this correct? vedo dharmamUlam tadvidam ca smRtizIle or is it tadvidAm? Al Collins ? ? ? Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/ From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Apr 27 13:56:58 2009 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 09:56:58 -0400 Subject: Indus script In-Reply-To: <891FDF74-54B5-43E4-929A-8433C2C0A649@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086036.23782.8628301843835642926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George, the "rhetoric" is due to the fact that the archaeologists etc. involved have spent much of their lives and careers(!) on this topic. A scientific theory should be just that -- and should be objected to stringent counterchecks and falsification. Another important point is that many cannot imagine a highly developed civilization as existing without a script that represents spoken language (such as sentences). Well, what about the Inca/Moche etc., or Mexican Highland ones? Or closer to home, the Bactria-Margiana (Oxus) and E. Iranian Jiroft ones? I still have to meet someone to deny "high status" to the Inca civilization. In short: built in, pathway dependent views of the 20th century. Cheers! Michael PS> About shooting: even that has been threatened, not just shouting... On Apr 27, 2009, at 9:34 AM, George Hart wrote: > I can't help calling to mind the Beale treasure: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beale_ciphers > > I had a great uncle who spent his entire life searching for this > treasure. He once hypnotized someone who claimed he could see the > treasure under a tree. He tried to dig it up (fruitlessly), and > later learned the landowner almost shot him thinking he was a > thief. Fortunately, people searching for the key to the IV > symbols? script? writing? are not likely to be shot, though some of > the rhetoric makes me wonder. George Hart > > On Apr 27, 2009, at 6:13 AM, Patricia Greer wrote: > >> A day before this topic hit our list, I received an e-mail >> alerting me to an >> article in a British newspaper about Rao's tremendous "breakthrough" >> announced in Science -- the e-mail was from the Arya Samaj! I >> have no idea >> how they got my academic address. >> >> Patricia Greer ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line: 617- 496 2990 From karin.preisendanz at UNIVIE.AC.AT Mon Apr 27 09:34:24 2009 From: karin.preisendanz at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Karin.Preisendanz) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 11:34:24 +0200 Subject: Anup Sanskrit Library Message-ID: <161227086022.23782.18247159273948570748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleague, In the context of two of my projects, I have recently had success in getting (limited) access to the Library. After some correspondence with the two gentlemen in charge, permission was granted to three project scholars to use the Library daily for an extended period of time and do collation of relevant mss. on the spot. This was in spring and summer 2008. Regards, Karin Preisendanz On Mo, 27.04.2009, 04:01, James McHugh wrote: > Dear List, > > Has anyone had any recent experience of using the Anup Sanskrit Library? I > was hoping to go there this summer, and I would appreciate any advice the > list members might have concerning this institution. > > Best wishes, > > James McHugh > > > James McHugh > Assistant Professor Of Religion > School of Religion > University of Southern California > > -- Karin Preisendanz Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Wien ?sterreich From pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM Mon Apr 27 11:22:23 2009 From: pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM (Pankaj Jain) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 12:22:23 +0100 Subject: Professor Asko Parpola on the Indus script Message-ID: <161227086024.23782.10973023106650974204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just came across this paper by Professor Asko Parpola, one of the leading authorities on Indus Valley Script. This was published last year in "Airavati" and is available at http://www.harappa.com In this paper, he has argued for language being represented by the Indus script, which is also argued by Rao et al in their paper published in Science last week. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Pankaj Jain पंकज ज&#2374;न, Department of Religion and Philosophy, Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures, North Carolina State University. http://www.IndicUniversity.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Apr 27 17:44:57 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 13:44:57 -0400 Subject: The Indus script - lost perishable manuscripts Message-ID: <161227086045.23782.12354952617376480048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Such graphic/phonetic symbols existed in India at least since the Saddharmapundariika." What passage in the SDP are you referring to, Deepak? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From nlpdept at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Apr 27 08:40:20 2009 From: nlpdept at YAHOO.CO.IN (Srinivasa Varakhedi) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 14:10:20 +0530 Subject: Call for papers for JSA - 2009 Message-ID: <161227086018.23782.2190073304746473958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Scholars, I am pleased to announce that the Journal of Sanskrit Academy, Hyd is revived by the publication of its 18th Vol in the year 2008. (One can request for subscription / copies to sanskritacademyhyd at gmail.com) Now we request the scholars to contribute their research papers/ books for reviews / any kind of research outcome to the journal. The papers are refereed by the Advisory Board. This is to ensure the quality of the journal. The papers submitted by senior and well known scholars will be published as special case. For the 19th issue 2009, we invite papers. Last Date for abstract submission : 31-5-2009. Acceptance - 30-6-2009 Full paper submission : 15-6-2009 Final correction by 31-8-2009. Journal will be out by the end of the Nov 2009. Address for correspondence : The Director, Sanskrit Academy (Research Center) Distance Education Center Road. Osmania University, Hyderabad. warm regards, shrivara Dr.Shrinivasa Varakhedi Director, Sanskrit Academy (Research Center) Distance Education Center Road. Osmania University, Hyderabad. India - 500 007 Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From nlpdept at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Apr 27 09:19:14 2009 From: nlpdept at YAHOO.CO.IN (Srinivasa Varakhedi) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 14:49:14 +0530 Subject: New Publications of Kshemendra' works and Shaktivada Message-ID: <161227086020.23782.9038921009544143097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, We are happy to announce the arrival of new publications of Sanskrit Academy, Hyd. 1) Kshemendra?s Minor works (Revised edition) Kshemendra, who is one of the front-ranking writers in Sanskrit, flourished in the last quarter of tenth and first half of the eleventh century A.D. Endowed with a master mind, he had a variety of interests in worldly life and wrote quite a number of treatises and poems on diverse subjects. He is truly described as a polymath. Almost every important branch of Sanskrit literature has been enriched by this genius writer. This edition is comprised of his eleven minor works as follows..? ?(1) Aucitya-vicara-carcaa (2) Kavikanthabharana (3) Suvritta-Tilaka (4) Caturvarga-Sangraha (5) Caarucaryaa (6) Darpadalana (7) Sevyasevakopadesa (8) Kalaavilaasa (9) Desopadesa (10) Narmamalaa and (11) Samayamaatrika. A detailed introduction with up-to-date bibliography of Kshemendra's works is an addition to this edition. The last section which includes seven appendices is highly useful for the researchers. This edition is a result of collective effort by the faculty of Sanskrit Academy, Hyd. Dr. Shrinivasa Varakhedi, the Director and Dr. V.Shrinivasa Sharma, Editor, have played key role in editing this volume. 2 ) Shaktivada of Gadadhara Bhattacharya is one of the textbooks widely studied in Navya Nyaya Tradition. It deals with the basic conveying power of words that is called ?Shakti?. According to the theory of Nyaya, Shakti is nothing but convention that plays major role in conveying the meaning of a word. The role and nature of power of words and its place in the process of shabbdabodha are discussed in the first chapter of this work. In the second of part the work, semantics of some unique nouns like cow etc., pronouns like All, Some, This, etc, reflexives like slef etc, are discussed in detail. This work is critically edited by Dr.Shrinvasa Varakhedi and Dr. Veeranarayana Pandurangi in consultation with many published books and manuscripts. A summary of the whole work is given in lucid Sanskrit for the benefit of students. This edition is the first publication in the Nyaya Text Series planned by both the scholars. Dr.Shrinivasa Varakhedi is presently working as Director of Sanskrit Academy ? a Research Center of Osmania University functioning with the financial assistance of Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan. He is the recipient of Vyas Badarayan Samman conferred on him by President of India. He has more than ten publications to his credit. Dr. Veeranarayana Pandurangi is head of the Dept. of Darshana in Rajasthan Sanskrit University, who has studied Nyaya under Manikya Shastry of Vijayawada and Meemamsa under Marthanda Dikshit, Hubli. He has published many books and research papers on various topics. He is conducting critical research in the field of Nyaya and Vedanta. His recent studies on Gadadhara have gained the attention of the scholarly world. Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/ From patricia.greer at AUIS.ORG Mon Apr 27 13:13:51 2009 From: patricia.greer at AUIS.ORG (Patricia Greer) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 16:13:51 +0300 Subject: Indus script In-Reply-To: <7AC4391A-A848-4926-8EE9-2D827D3A5C5C@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227086031.23782.2500015120526392637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A day before this topic hit our list, I received an e-mail alerting me to an article in a British newspaper about Rao's tremendous "breakthrough" announced in Science -- the e-mail was from the Arya Samaj! I have no idea how they got my academic address. Patricia Greer From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Apr 27 22:28:03 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 18:28:03 -0400 Subject: The Indus script - lost perishable manuscripts Message-ID: <161227086049.23782.12038804413006200461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks. - Allen >>> Dipak Bhattacharya 4/27/2009 2:22:32 PM >>> The short charms reputed to be precursors of Tantric hriim and the like --- On Mon, 27/4/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: From: Allen W Thrasher Subject: Re: The Indus script - lost perishable manuscripts To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 27 April, 2009, 11:14 PM "Such graphic/phonetic symbols existed in India at least since the Saddharmapundariika." What passage in the SDP are you referring to, Deepak? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI Mon Apr 27 16:33:51 2009 From: asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 19:33:51 +0300 Subject: The Indus script - lost perishable manuscripts Message-ID: <161227086041.23782.15774513415730605057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Quoting "Steve Farmer" : The implausibility of the view that the so-called Indus script was true writing is suggested in many ways that do not require sophisticated analyses. The simplest argument is the best: the sheer brevity of the inscriptions. We possess thousands of inscribed Indus objects on a wide range of materials. The average inscription is 4-5 symbols long and the longest, found on a highly anomalous piece, carries 17. Before our paper, the lack of real texts was explained away by invoking the purely speculative image of lost perishable manuscripts. The speculation was spurious: we know of hundreds of literate societies, but not of one that wrote long texts on perishable materials but failed to do so as well on durable goods. It is interesting that simple arguments like this have been ignored by defenders of the traditional view, who often hold that view for reasons that have nothing to do with science. ------------------------------ Steve Farmer here goes on repeating arguments published in 2004, claiming that "simple arguments like this have been ignored by defenders of the traditional view, who often hold that view for reasons that have nothing to do with science". Farmer thus forces me to this reply, given to make it easy to the members of the list to check if this is true or not. In my paper of 2008 referred to by Pankaj Jain and available for download at http://www.harappa.com I list all the main theses of Farmer & Co. and reply to them one by one. (In addition I discuss some important issues not touched by Farmer & Co.) Below is a quote from pp. 117-118 exemplifying how I replied to this "Lost longer texts (manuscripts) never existed" thesis. Please note that the Harappans wrote on stone in their stamp seals, and that the Mesopotamian seal inscriptions are often equally short. Later on in the article I mention that the type of texts I expect to be lost is exemplified by the Mycenaean Linear B tablets, i.e. economic accounts, not literature, which was probably handed down orally, and even in Mesopotamia was written down at a relatively late date. The rest of this message consists of the quote from my paper. With best regards, Asko Parpola ---------------------------------------------- *"Lost" longer texts (manuscripts) never existed* All literary civilizations produced longer texts but there are none from the Indus Valley ? hence the Indus script is no writing system: Farmer and his colleagues reject the much repeated early assumption that longer texts may have been written on birch bark, palm leaves, parchment, wood, or cotton cloth, any of which would have perished in the course of ages as suggested by Sir John Marshall in 1931 (I, 39). Farmer and his colleagues are ready to believe the Indus script thesis only if an Indus text at least 50 signs long is found. *But* even though Farmer and his colleagues speak as if our present corpus of texts was everything there ever existed, this is not the case. More than 2100 Indus texts come from Mohenjo-daro alone, and yet less than one tenth of that single city has been excavated. Farmer and his colleagues do not know what has existed and what may be found in the remaining parts of the city, even if it is likely that only imperishable material of the kinds already available continue to be found. The Rongo-Rongo tablets of Easter Island are much longer than 50 signs. But does this make it certain that they represent writing in the strict sense? Seed evidence shows that cotton has been cultivated in Greater Indus Valley since Chalcolithic times, and cotton cloth is supposed to have been one of the main export items of the Harappans. Yet all the millions of Harappan pieces of cotton cloth have disappeared for climatic reasons, save four cases where a few microscopic fibers have been preserved in association with metal (cf. Possehl 2002: table 3.2, with further references). Alexander?s admiral Nearchus mentions thickly woven cloth used for writing letters in the Indus Valley c 325 BC. Sanskrit sources such as the Ya:j?avalkya-Smrti (1,319) also mention cotton cloth, (ka:rpa:sa-)paTa, as writing material around the beginning of the Christian era. But the earliest preserved examples date from the 13th century AD (cf. Shivaganesha Murthy 1996: 45-46; Salomon 1998: 132). Emperor Asoka had long inscriptions carved on stone (pillars and rocks) all around his wide realm in 260 to 250 BC. They have survived. But also manuscripts on perishable materials must have existed in Asoka?s times and already since the Achaemenid rule started in the Indus Valley c 520 BC. This is suggested among other things by the mention of lipi ?script? in Pa:Nini?s Sanskrit Grammar (3,2,21) which is dated to around 400-350 BC. Sanskrit lipi comes from Old Persian dipi ?script?. The earliest surviving manuscripts on birch bark, palm leaves and wooden blocks date from the 2nd century AD and come from the dry climate of Central Asia (cf. Shivaganesha Murthy 1996: 24-36; Salomon 1998: 131). We can conclude that manuscripts on perishable materials have almost certainly existed in South Asia during 600 years from the start of the Persian rule onwards, but they have not been preserved; this period of 600 years with no surviving manuscripts corresponds to the duration of the Indus Civilization. From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue Apr 28 02:40:05 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 19:40:05 -0700 Subject: The Indus script - lost perishable manuscripts In-Reply-To: <20090427193351.33412vdm9il8v9m7@webmail.helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <161227086051.23782.9568073680536374396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Asko, Thanks much for posting. I'm very eager to get into this Indus string- size issue (the word 'inscription' is loaded), which I think is one of several "Indus script killers" nearly on its own. Some ninety years of digging at multiple large urban sites, finds of thousands of tiny-sized symbol strings only, on many types of objects, and not one reasonable sized one? And this from a urban civilization that was supposedly "writing" for well over a half century, and on some accounts more, supposedly with a civilization-wide system. That's not a sign of "writing" in the accepted linguistic sense of systematically encoded speech, but something more interesting, I think. Science rarely "proves" anything, but it certainly makes some views less credible than others. Leaving aside the periods after the Persians introduced writing in the NW nearly a millennium and a half after the disappearance of Indus symbols, which you spend most of your time on, and is irrelevant to the purpose, it's pretty easy to undercut your case with your own data when you add in what we know about literate civilizations. You write: > More than 2100 Indus texts come from Mohenjo-daro alone, and yet > less than one tenth of that single city has been excavated. Farmer > and his colleagues do not know what has existed and what may be > found in the remaining parts of the city, even if it is likely that > only imperishable material of the kinds already available continue > to be found. "Only" 10%?? How much digging would you have to do of a Maya ceremonial or urban site to find one text over 17 symbols long? (Answer: you wouldn't have to dig at all, since you see long texts everywhere.) How many Mesopotamian texts on durable materials do we have? Literally hundreds of thousands. How many from Shang dynasty China? Again hundreds of thousands, etc. We're talking about durable texts, not perishable ones. Of those we only have four still from the Maya, none from Shang dynasty China (although there are suggestions on Shang signs that they used them), and of course they used them in Mesopotamia as well, although they have all perished. I want to return to this in detail -- deep detail -- about Wednesday or so. I can't earlier, unfortunately. I tore a muscle in my back today and temporarily out of commission and in pain, and dental things tomorrow, but I should be OK and have lots of leisure time on Wed. Very happy we're going to have this discussion: Festina lente and let's settle some things this time. I'll discuss all of your evidence on this issue, at length, on Wed. if possible. Looking forward to seeing you in Kyoto. Best, Steve From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue Apr 28 02:51:20 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 19:51:20 -0700 Subject: The Indus script - lost perishable manuscripts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086054.23782.14392099413628522229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Obvious blooper in the post: > And this from a urban civilization that was supposedly "writing" > for well over a half century? [read: "well over a half millennium?"] Steve On Apr 27, 2009, at 7:40 PM, Steve Farmer wrote: > Dear Asko, > > Thanks much for posting. I'm very eager to get into this Indus > string-size issue (the word 'inscription' is loaded), which I think > is one of several "Indus script killers" nearly on its own. Some > ninety years of digging at multiple large urban sites, finds of > thousands of tiny-sized symbol strings only, on many types of > objects, and not one reasonable sized one? And this from a urban > civilization that was supposedly "writing" for well over a half > century, and on some accounts more, supposedly with a civilization- > wide system. > > That's not a sign of "writing" in the accepted linguistic sense of > systematically encoded speech, but something more interesting, I > think. Science rarely "proves" anything, but it certainly makes > some views less credible than others. > > Leaving aside the periods after the Persians introduced writing in > the NW nearly a millennium and a half after the disappearance of > Indus symbols, which you spend most of your time on, and is > irrelevant to the purpose, it's pretty easy to undercut your case > with your own data when you add in what we know about literate > civilizations. You write: > >> More than 2100 Indus texts come from Mohenjo-daro alone, and yet >> less than one tenth of that single city has been excavated. Farmer >> and his colleagues do not know what has existed and what may be >> found in the remaining parts of the city, even if it is likely >> that only imperishable material of the kinds already available >> continue to be found. > > > "Only" 10%?? How much digging would you have to do of a Maya > ceremonial or urban site to find one text over 17 symbols long? > (Answer: you wouldn't have to dig at all, since you see long texts > everywhere.) How many Mesopotamian texts on durable materials do > we have? Literally hundreds of thousands. How many from Shang > dynasty China? Again hundreds of thousands, etc. > > We're talking about durable texts, not perishable ones. Of those we > only have four still from the Maya, none from Shang dynasty China > (although there are suggestions on Shang signs that they used > them), and of course they used them in Mesopotamia as well, > although they have all perished. > > I want to return to this in detail -- deep detail -- about > Wednesday or so. I can't earlier, unfortunately. I tore a muscle in > my back today and temporarily out of commission and in pain, and > dental things tomorrow, but I should be OK and have lots of leisure > time on Wed. > > Very happy we're going to have this discussion: Festina lente and > let's settle some things this time. I'll discuss all of your > evidence on this issue, at length, on Wed. if possible. > > Looking forward to seeing you in Kyoto. > > Best, > Steve From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Apr 27 17:18:37 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 22:48:37 +0530 Subject: The Indus script - lost perishable manuscripts Message-ID: <161227086043.23782.13215242683454797728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Parpola, I am following the debate for just two days.?Pity that the literature concerned was unknown to me. But thanks to Dr. Fleming's help with some literature,?perhaps I have been able to follow the course. I agree with your?reply. Why not earlier? Better late than never.Let me not be rude but is there not something akin to the?one eyed deer not seeing the left side where the hunter stood.?Earlier known than Mycenaean Linear B was the basic signs on which Confucius had based his codes. Was that earlier material literature? The signs had conveyed meanings to Confucius and hence were at least proto-lingustic.? Have the proponents of the illiterate Harappan theory taken that into consideration? They are also unaware of the language-and-script-based holy symbols of secret societies. ?They derive themselves from a living script and convey meaning and,according to the followers, are no less effective than versified charms. But taken alone without the knowledge of the basic script they would appear just like?what the proponents speak of the Harappan script. Still they are script based. Such graphic/phonetic symbols existed in India at least since the Saddharmapundariika. Unfortunately there is no literature on this but given time I could bring home the point better. Again the observations made by me may have missed major points. Please be kind enough to point to my errors. I will rectify myself. Best wishes to all DB? ? --- On Mon, 27/4/09, Asko Parpola wrote: From: Asko Parpola Subject: The Indus script - lost perishable manuscripts To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 27 April, 2009, 10:03 PM Quoting "Steve Farmer" : The implausibility of the view that the so-called Indus script was true writing is suggested in many ways that do not require sophisticated analyses. The simplest argument is the best: the sheer brevity of the inscriptions. We possess thousands of inscribed Indus objects on a wide range of materials. The average inscription is 4-5 symbols long and the longest, found on a highly anomalous piece, carries 17. Before our paper, the lack of real texts was explained away by invoking the purely speculative image of lost perishable manuscripts. The speculation was spurious: we know of hundreds of literate societies, but not of one that wrote long texts on perishable materials but failed to do so as well on durable goods. It is interesting that simple arguments like this have been ignored by defenders of the traditional view, who often hold that view for reasons that have nothing to do with science. ------------------------------ Steve Farmer here goes on repeating arguments published in 2004, claiming that "simple arguments like this have been ignored by defenders of the traditional view, who often hold that view for reasons that have nothing to do with science". Farmer thus forces me to this reply, given to make it easy to the members of the list to check if this is true or not. In my paper of 2008 referred to by Pankaj Jain and available for download at http://www.harappa.com I list all the main theses of Farmer & Co. and reply to them one by one. (In addition I discuss some important issues not touched by Farmer & Co.) Below is a quote from pp. 117-118 exemplifying how I replied to this "Lost longer texts (manuscripts) never existed" thesis. Please note that the Harappans wrote on stone in their stamp seals, and that the Mesopotamian seal inscriptions are often equally short. Later on in the article I mention that the type of texts I expect to be lost is exemplified by the Mycenaean Linear B tablets, i.e. economic accounts, not literature, which was probably handed down orally, and even in Mesopotamia was written down at a relatively late date. The rest of this message consists of the quote from my paper. With best regards, Asko Parpola ---------------------------------------------- *"Lost" longer texts (manuscripts) never existed* All literary civilizations produced longer texts but there are none from the Indus Valley ? hence the Indus script is no writing system: Farmer and his colleagues reject the much repeated early assumption that longer texts may have been written on birch bark, palm leaves, parchment, wood, or cotton cloth, any of which would have perished in the course of ages as suggested by Sir John Marshall in 1931 (I, 39). Farmer and his colleagues are ready to believe the Indus script thesis only if an Indus text at least 50 signs long is found. *But* even though Farmer and his colleagues speak as if our present corpus of texts was everything there ever existed, this is not the case. More than 2100 Indus texts come from Mohenjo-daro alone, and yet less than one tenth of that single city has been excavated. Farmer and his colleagues do not know what has existed and what may be found in the remaining parts of the city, even if it is likely that only imperishable material of the kinds already available continue to be found. The Rongo-Rongo tablets of Easter Island are much longer than 50 signs. But does this make it certain that they represent writing in the strict sense? Seed evidence shows that cotton has been cultivated in Greater Indus Valley since Chalcolithic times, and cotton cloth is supposed to have been one of the main export items of the Harappans. Yet all the millions of Harappan pieces of cotton cloth have disappeared for climatic reasons, save four cases where a few microscopic fibers have been preserved in association with metal (cf. Possehl 2002: table 3.2, with further references). Alexander?s admiral Nearchus mentions thickly woven cloth used for writing letters in the Indus Valley c 325 BC. Sanskrit sources such as the Ya:j?avalkya-Smrti (1,319) also mention cotton cloth, (ka:rpa:sa-)paTa, as writing material around the beginning of the Christian era. But the earliest preserved examples date from the 13th century AD (cf. Shivaganesha Murthy 1996: 45-46; Salomon 1998: 132). Emperor Asoka had long inscriptions carved on stone (pillars and rocks) all around his wide realm in 260 to 250 BC. They have survived. But also manuscripts on perishable materials must have existed in Asoka?s times and already since the Achaemenid rule started in the Indus Valley c 520 BC. This is suggested among other things by the mention of lipi ?script? in Pa:Nini?s Sanskrit Grammar (3,2,21) which is dated to around 400-350 BC. Sanskrit lipi comes from Old Persian dipi ?script?. The earliest surviving manuscripts on birch bark, palm leaves and wooden blocks date from the 2nd century AD and come from the dry climate of Central Asia (cf. Shivaganesha Murthy 1996: 24-36; Salomon 1998: 131). We can conclude that manuscripts on perishable materials have almost certainly existed in South Asia during 600 years from the start of the Persian rule onwards, but they have not been preserved; this period of 600 years with no surviving manuscripts corresponds to the duration of the Indus Civilization. --- On Mon, 27/4/09, Asko Parpola wrote: From: Asko Parpola Subject: The Indus script - lost perishable manuscripts To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 27 April, 2009, 10:03 PM Quoting "Steve Farmer" : The implausibility of the view that the so-called Indus script was true writing is suggested in many ways that do not require sophisticated analyses. The simplest argument is the best: the sheer brevity of the inscriptions. We possess thousands of inscribed Indus objects on a wide range of materials. The average inscription is 4-5 symbols long and the longest, found on a highly anomalous piece, carries 17. Before our paper, the lack of real texts was explained away by invoking the purely speculative image of lost perishable manuscripts. The speculation was spurious: we know of hundreds of literate societies, but not of one that wrote long texts on perishable materials but failed to do so as well on durable goods. It is interesting that simple arguments like this have been ignored by defenders of the traditional view, who often hold that view for reasons that have nothing to do with science. ------------------------------ Steve Farmer here goes on repeating arguments published in 2004, claiming that "simple arguments like this have been ignored by defenders of the traditional view, who often hold that view for reasons that have nothing to do with science". Farmer thus forces me to this reply, given to make it easy to the members of the list to check if this is true or not. In my paper of 2008 referred to by Pankaj Jain and available for download at http://www.harappa.com I list all the main theses of Farmer & Co. and reply to them one by one. (In addition I discuss some important issues not touched by Farmer & Co.) Below is a quote from pp. 117-118 exemplifying how I replied to this "Lost longer texts (manuscripts) never existed" thesis. Please note that the Harappans wrote on stone in their stamp seals, and that the Mesopotamian seal inscriptions are often equally short. Later on in the article I mention that the type of texts I expect to be lost is exemplified by the Mycenaean Linear B tablets, i.e. economic accounts, not literature, which was probably handed down orally, and even in Mesopotamia was written down at a relatively late date. The rest of this message consists of the quote from my paper. With best regards, Asko Parpola ---------------------------------------------- *"Lost" longer texts (manuscripts) never existed* All literary civilizations produced longer texts but there are none from the Indus Valley ? hence the Indus script is no writing system: Farmer and his colleagues reject the much repeated early assumption that longer texts may have been written on birch bark, palm leaves, parchment, wood, or cotton cloth, any of which would have perished in the course of ages as suggested by Sir John Marshall in 1931 (I, 39). Farmer and his colleagues are ready to believe the Indus script thesis only if an Indus text at least 50 signs long is found. *But* even though Farmer and his colleagues speak as if our present corpus of texts was everything there ever existed, this is not the case. More than 2100 Indus texts come from Mohenjo-daro alone, and yet less than one tenth of that single city has been excavated. Farmer and his colleagues do not know what has existed and what may be found in the remaining parts of the city, even if it is likely that only imperishable material of the kinds already available continue to be found. The Rongo-Rongo tablets of Easter Island are much longer than 50 signs. But does this make it certain that they represent writing in the strict sense? Seed evidence shows that cotton has been cultivated in Greater Indus Valley since Chalcolithic times, and cotton cloth is supposed to have been one of the main export items of the Harappans. Yet all the millions of Harappan pieces of cotton cloth have disappeared for climatic reasons, save four cases where a few microscopic fibers have been preserved in association with metal (cf. Possehl 2002: table 3.2, with further references). Alexander?s admiral Nearchus mentions thickly woven cloth used for writing letters in the Indus Valley c 325 BC. Sanskrit sources such as the Ya:j?avalkya-Smrti (1,319) also mention cotton cloth, (ka:rpa:sa-)paTa, as writing material around the beginning of the Christian era. But the earliest preserved examples date from the 13th century AD (cf. Shivaganesha Murthy 1996: 45-46; Salomon 1998: 132). Emperor Asoka had long inscriptions carved on stone (pillars and rocks) all around his wide realm in 260 to 250 BC. They have survived. But also manuscripts on perishable materials must have existed in Asoka?s times and already since the Achaemenid rule started in the Indus Valley c 520 BC. This is suggested among other things by the mention of lipi ?script? in Pa:Nini?s Sanskrit Grammar (3,2,21) which is dated to around 400-350 BC. Sanskrit lipi comes from Old Persian dipi ?script?. The earliest surviving manuscripts on birch bark, palm leaves and wooden blocks date from the 2nd century AD and come from the dry climate of Central Asia (cf. Shivaganesha Murthy 1996: 24-36; Salomon 1998: 131). We can conclude that manuscripts on perishable materials have almost certainly existed in South Asia during 600 years from the start of the Persian rule onwards, but they have not been preserved; this period of 600 years with no surviving manuscripts corresponds to the duration of the Indus Civilization. Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Apr 27 18:22:32 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 09 23:52:32 +0530 Subject: The Indus script - lost perishable manuscripts Message-ID: <161227086047.23782.17811334664964734270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The short charms reputed to be precursors of Tantric hriim and the like --- On Mon, 27/4/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: From: Allen W Thrasher Subject: Re: The Indus script - lost perishable manuscripts To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 27 April, 2009, 11:14 PM "Such graphic/phonetic symbols existed in India at least since the Saddharmapundariika." What passage in the SDP are you referring to, Deepak? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From brodbecksp at CF.AC.UK Tue Apr 28 10:08:56 2009 From: brodbecksp at CF.AC.UK (Simon Brodbeck) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 09 11:08:56 +0100 Subject: The Indus "script"? Message-ID: <161227086057.23782.17825721921523779912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hope it will not be out of place here to say how little I am looking forward to the apparently forthcoming treatment of this issue in this forum. I have no doubt that if any present parties have anything substantial to add to the debate, we shall see it in print before long. In the meantime, I wonder how much is to be gained by repeating, in more or less rhetorical variants, contributions that have already been made in print. The members of this forum are trained and accustomed to weighing evidence for themselves, according to their own lights. All other things being equal (which in this case they perhaps are), we may have a tendency unconsciously to side with the interlocutor who apparently accords us with the greater degree of intelligence. With all best wishes, Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Apr 29 07:20:46 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 09 02:20:46 -0500 Subject: terminology request Message-ID: <161227086061.23782.11689334546210666165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raghu Vira's Greater Englist-Hindi Dictionary uses mostly neo-Sanskrit terms in connection with the vocabulary of the sciences and other "modern" areas. It might be worthwhile to check there. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 29 02:51:34 2009 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 09 04:51:34 +0200 Subject: terminology request Message-ID: <161227086059.23782.11300802794539400845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Might I ask colleagues what is currently considered best practice Sanskrit terms for what in English we refer to as 'a scientist' or 'a researcher' in the modern academic sense? (understanding that there are many different scientific fields, many different types of research). Or might someone refer me to a list of terms in this area? James Hartzell U. of Manitoba From slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU Wed Apr 29 12:03:26 2009 From: slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU (Steven Lindquist) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 09 07:03:26 -0500 Subject: typing Devanagari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086070.23782.2581815598206430398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a Devanagari keyboard/font that is now part of OSX. Under the "Apple" drop down menu choose "System Preferences" and then "International". Then under "Input Menu" you can select Devanagari and/or Devanagari QWERTY. At the bottom of this display box, make sure "Show input menu in menu bar" is "on." In the upper right of your menu bar (near the clock), you will now have a way to select the keyboard input (US, US Extended, Devanagari, etc.). I just tried it again (since I almost never use Devanagari myself) and it seems to work fine (the font automatically changes to match the keyboard). You can use this keyboard for any unicode Devanagari font (like Sanskrit 2003, etc.). Contact me off-list, if the above isn't clear. My best, Steven -- Steven Lindquist Department of Religious Studies Southern Methodist University -- On Apr 29, 2009, at 6:11 AM, James Hartzell wrote: > Might a colleague advise me on whether there is a facile method for > typing > Devanagari in MS Word 2008 for Mac? Or, failing that, in NeoOffice > 2.2.5 > Patch 8? Or, in some other Mac-compatible program that would allow > me to > convert the created files to MS-Word/Neo Office format? > > James Hartzell > U. of Manitoba From slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU Wed Apr 29 13:30:48 2009 From: slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU (Steven Lindquist) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 09 08:30:48 -0500 Subject: typing Devanagari In-Reply-To: <3AF9B038A6B07641B36C799ED4EBB0D70466E1BAF2@ITCS-ECLS-1-VS3.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227086074.23782.6555328607827320772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav is right and I forgot to mention that Microsoft Word for Mac is not 100% unicode compliant (but many programs are). Microsoft only claims to be compatible with certain keyboards (I pasted below Microsoft's unicode/keyboard statement). Based on the recommendation of several people, I will be transitioning from Word to Mellel (http://www.redlers.com/) for this and other reasons, unless anyone here could suggest a reason not to or a better alternative. My best, Steven ---copied from: http://tiny.cc/nsoAJ "Unicode characters and international keyboards" -- Unicode is an encoding standard that can represent the characters of most written languages with a single character set. In Office 2008, you can type, display, and print Unicode characters that are associated with the following keyboards: Australian, Austrian, Belgian, Brazilian, British, Bulgarian, Canadian, Croatian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, Dvorak, Estonian, Faroese, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hawaiian, Hungarian, Icelandic, Inuktitut, Irish, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Macedonian (FYROM), Northern Sami, Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Russian, Serbian, Slovak, Slovenian, Spanish, Swedish, Swiss French, Swiss German, Turkish, U.S., Ukrainian, Unicode Hex Input, and Welsh. You can also use the following Mac OS X input methods: Hangul, Kotoeri, Murasu Anjal Tamil, Simplified Chinese, and Traditional Chinese. On Apr 29, 2009, at 7:39 AM, Deshpande, Madhav wrote: > In my experience, the procedure described by Steven works on Mac > OSX, but the MS Word (2008) does not fully support implimentation of > unicode Devanagari, and hence the conjuncts do not show up > properly. However, this procedure seems to work fine in Text-Edit, > web browsers like Opera, and also i NeoOffice. However, the MS > Office for Mac is not yet supporting Devanagari. If someone knows > how to properly use unicode Devanagari with MS Word for Mac, I would > like to know how to do it. Best, > > Madhav M. Deshpande > > ________________________________________ From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Apr 29 12:39:31 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 09 08:39:31 -0400 Subject: typing Devanagari In-Reply-To: <179ED19B-FFAA-4E1A-B962-F1F99E99A4BB@mail.smu.edu> Message-ID: <161227086072.23782.2211707603964675404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my experience, the procedure described by Steven works on Mac OSX, but the MS Word (2008) does not fully support implimentation of unicode Devanagari, and hence the conjuncts do not show up properly. However, this procedure seems to work fine in Text-Edit, web browsers like Opera, and also i NeoOffice. However, the MS Office for Mac is not yet supporting Devanagari. If someone knows how to properly use unicode Devanagari with MS Word for Mac, I would like to know how to do it. Best, Madhav M. Deshpande ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Steven Lindquist [slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:03 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: typing Devanagari There is a Devanagari keyboard/font that is now part of OSX. Under the "Apple" drop down menu choose "System Preferences" and then "International". Then under "Input Menu" you can select Devanagari and/or Devanagari QWERTY. At the bottom of this display box, make sure "Show input menu in menu bar" is "on." In the upper right of your menu bar (near the clock), you will now have a way to select the keyboard input (US, US Extended, Devanagari, etc.). I just tried it again (since I almost never use Devanagari myself) and it seems to work fine (the font automatically changes to match the keyboard). You can use this keyboard for any unicode Devanagari font (like Sanskrit 2003, etc.). Contact me off-list, if the above isn't clear. My best, Steven -- Steven Lindquist Department of Religious Studies Southern Methodist University -- On Apr 29, 2009, at 6:11 AM, James Hartzell wrote: > Might a colleague advise me on whether there is a facile method for > typing > Devanagari in MS Word 2008 for Mac? Or, failing that, in NeoOffice > 2.2.5 > Patch 8? Or, in some other Mac-compatible program that would allow > me to > convert the created files to MS-Word/Neo Office format? > > James Hartzell > U. of Manitoba From phmaas at ARCOR.DE Wed Apr 29 07:35:46 2009 From: phmaas at ARCOR.DE (Philipp Maas) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 09 09:35:46 +0200 Subject: AW: terminology request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086063.23782.14363839429184764914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My first idea concerning a Sanskrit translation of the word scholar is ;saastrin. > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk]Im Auftrag von James > Hartzell > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. April 2009 04:52 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: terminology request > > > Might I ask colleagues what is currently considered best practice Sanskrit > terms for what in English we refer to as 'a scientist' or 'a > researcher' in > the modern academic sense? (understanding that there are many different > scientific fields, many different types of research). Or might someone > refer me to a list of terms in this area? > > James Hartzell > U. of Manitoba From franceschini.marco at FASTWEBNET.IT Wed Apr 29 10:30:53 2009 From: franceschini.marco at FASTWEBNET.IT (franceschini.marco@fastwebnet.it) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 09 12:30:53 +0200 Subject: Reply: Publication announcement Message-ID: <161227086066.23782.3912885957342003860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, I'm glad to announce that the following work has recently been published: Dev?-M?h?tmya. Il ms. 4510 della Biblioteca civica "Vincenzo Joppi" di Udine, a cura di Alessandro Passi, contributi di Cinzia Pieruccini e Elena Preda, nota biobibliografica di Fausto Freschi, presentazione di Gianfranco Fiaccadori, Udine, Societ? Indologica "Luigi Pio Tessitori", 2008 (Bibliotheca Indica. Monumenta, I). Di G. FIACCADORI, F. FRESCHI, A. PASSI, C. PIERUCCINI, E. PREDA. (pp. 1-491). ISBN: 978-88-96304-006. Pp. 1-492, euros 32. This book is a complete edition of the lovely illuminated MS bought by Luigi Pio Tessitori in his travels in Rajasthan at the beginning of the 20th Century. Pages 183 to 492 of the volume give the English translation of the introduction and art-historical essays, the English translation of the main texts contained in the MS. (initial A?gas, Dev?-M?h?tmya, & Laghu-Stotra), followed by a complete normalized and annotated Sanskrit text, and an annotated diplomatic transliteration of the same. The Sanskrit text and the diplomatic transliteration have been published only in English and do not have an Italian counterpart in the first part of the book. The book can be purchased from: Cartostampa Chiandetti Srl Via Vittorio Veneto,106 33010 Reana Del Roiale Tel.: (+39) 0432857054 Email: ?info at chiandetti.it Best regards, Marco Franceschini From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 29 11:11:09 2009 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 09 13:11:09 +0200 Subject: typing Devanagari Message-ID: <161227086068.23782.3234099993187520190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Might a colleague advise me on whether there is a facile method for typing Devanagari in MS Word 2008 for Mac? Or, failing that, in NeoOffice 2.2.5 Patch 8? Or, in some other Mac-compatible program that would allow me to convert the created files to MS-Word/Neo Office format? James Hartzell U. of Manitoba From jesperlarnaes at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 29 21:19:33 2009 From: jesperlarnaes at GMAIL.COM (=?utf-8?Q?Jesper_Larn=C3=A6s?=) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 09 23:19:33 +0200 Subject: typing Devanagari In-Reply-To: <60AA3283-E701-45C4-9847-44B4CCB3EBAE@mail.smu.edu> Message-ID: <161227086076.23782.9701680624932786630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think OpenOffice should do the trick. http://m10lmac.blogspot.com/2006/11/for-unicode-sanskrit-try-openoffice.html http://homepage.mac.com/thgewecke/TypingDevanagari.html Best, Jesper Larn?s 2009/4/29 Steven Lindquist : > Madhav is right and I forgot to mention that Microsoft Word for Mac is not > 100% unicode compliant (but many programs are). ?Microsoft only claims to be > compatible with certain keyboards (I pasted below Microsoft's > unicode/keyboard statement). > > Based on the recommendation of several people, I will be transitioning from > Word to Mellel (http://www.redlers.com/) for this and other reasons, unless > anyone here could suggest a reason not to or a better alternative. > > My best, > > Steven > > > > ---copied from: ?http://tiny.cc/nsoAJ ? "Unicode characters and > international keyboards" -- > > Unicode is an encoding standard that can represent the characters of most > written languages with a single character set. > > In Office 2008, you can type, display, and print Unicode characters that are > associated with the following keyboards: > > Australian, Austrian, Belgian, Brazilian, British, Bulgarian, Canadian, > Croatian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, Dvorak, Estonian, Faroese, Finnish, French, > German, Greek, Hawaiian, Hungarian, Icelandic, Inuktitut, Irish, Italian, > Latvian, Lithuanian, Macedonian (FYROM), Northern Sami, Norwegian, Polish, > Portuguese, Romanian, Russian, Serbian, Slovak, Slovenian, Spanish, Swedish, > Swiss French, Swiss German, Turkish, U.S., Ukrainian, Unicode Hex Input, and > Welsh. > > You can also use the following Mac OS X input methods: Hangul, Kotoeri, > Murasu Anjal Tamil, Simplified Chinese, and Traditional Chinese. > > > On Apr 29, 2009, at 7:39 AM, Deshpande, Madhav wrote: > >> In my experience, the procedure described by Steven works on Mac OSX, but >> the MS Word (2008) does not fully support implimentation of unicode >> Devanagari, and hence the conjuncts do not show up properly. ?However, this >> procedure seems to work fine in Text-Edit, web browsers like Opera, and also >> i NeoOffice. ?However, the MS Office for Mac is not yet supporting >> Devanagari. ?If someone knows how to properly use unicode Devanagari with MS >> Word for Mac, I would like to know how to do it. ?Best, >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> >> ________________________________________ > From pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 29 23:27:35 2009 From: pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM (Pankaj Jain) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 09 00:27:35 +0100 Subject: typing Devanagari Message-ID: <161227086081.23782.4458018262010589435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bloggin in Devanagari script has exploded beyond anybody's imaginations and most Hindi (and Marathi) poets and authors have started using this google tool to type in Devanagari: http://www.google.com/transliterate/indic Also, several people use this: http://baraha.com/download.htm Hope this helps... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Pankaj Jain पंकज ज&#2374;न, Department of Religion and Philosophy, Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures, North Carolina State University. http://www.IndicUniversity.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU Wed Apr 29 23:48:50 2009 From: mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 09 09:48:50 +1000 Subject: typing Devanagari In-Reply-To: <60AA3283-E701-45C4-9847-44B4CCB3EBAE@mail.smu.edu> Message-ID: <161227086084.23782.6185613512514123184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues When I need to create text on a Windows system with devanagari, I use Open Office, which is free. http://www.openoffice.org/ McComas Steven Lindquist wrote: > Madhav is right and I forgot to mention that Microsoft Word for Mac is > not 100% unicode compliant (but many programs are). Microsoft only > claims to be compatible with certain keyboards (I pasted below > Microsoft's unicode/keyboard statement). > > Based on the recommendation of several people, I will be transitioning > from Word to Mellel (http://www.redlers.com/) for this and other > reasons, unless anyone here could suggest a reason not to or a better > alternative. > > My best, > > Steven > > > > ---copied from: http://tiny.cc/nsoAJ "Unicode characters and > international keyboards" -- > > Unicode is an encoding standard that can represent the characters of > most written languages with a single character set. > > In Office 2008, you can type, display, and print Unicode characters > that are associated with the following keyboards: > > Australian, Austrian, Belgian, Brazilian, British, Bulgarian, > Canadian, Croatian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, Dvorak, Estonian, Faroese, > Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hawaiian, Hungarian, Icelandic, > Inuktitut, Irish, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Macedonian (FYROM), > Northern Sami, Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Russian, > Serbian, Slovak, Slovenian, Spanish, Swedish, Swiss French, Swiss > German, Turkish, U.S., Ukrainian, Unicode Hex Input, and Welsh. > > You can also use the following Mac OS X input methods: Hangul, > Kotoeri, Murasu Anjal Tamil, Simplified Chinese, and Traditional Chinese. > > > On Apr 29, 2009, at 7:39 AM, Deshpande, Madhav wrote: > >> In my experience, the procedure described by Steven works on Mac OSX, >> but the MS Word (2008) does not fully support implimentation of >> unicode Devanagari, and hence the conjuncts do not show up properly. >> However, this procedure seems to work fine in Text-Edit, web browsers >> like Opera, and also i NeoOffice. However, the MS Office for Mac is >> not yet supporting Devanagari. If someone knows how to properly use >> unicode Devanagari with MS Word for Mac, I would like to know how to >> do it. Best, >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> >> ________________________________________ -- =============================== Dr McComas Taylor Head, South Asia Centre Faculty of Asian Studies The Australian National University ACTON ACT 0200 Tel: +61 2 6125 3179 Fax: +61 2 6125 8326 Email: mccomas.taylor at anu.edu.au URL: http://asianstudies.anu.edu.au/wiki/index.php/Dr_McComas_Taylor Location: Room E4.24 Baldessin Precinct Building From w.t.douglas at ABDN.AC.UK Thu Apr 30 10:15:35 2009 From: w.t.douglas at ABDN.AC.UK (Will Tuladhar-Douglas) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 09 11:15:35 +0100 Subject: typing Devanagari In-Reply-To: <60AA3283-E701-45C4-9847-44B4CCB3EBAE@mail.smu.edu> Message-ID: <161227086087.23782.1709150499773895776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gentle conscriptors and conscriptrices, On the Mac, so far as I am aware, Nisus Pro (www.nisus.com) offers almost the best support for South, Central and East Asian scripts. Mellel is better for Middle Eastern scripts. Nisus is certainly better than Mellel or Open Office for displaying and printing Devanagari ligatures, so if you're looking for print quality Sanskrit with complex ligatures, then I would suggest Nisus. If you're prepared to invest in the learning curve, then you could try XeTeX, which produces the best print output of complex ligatures in Devanagari. XeTeX is implemented to work with LaTeX so it's wonderful for things like critical editions, works cross-platform, lets you do amazing things with footnotes and cross-references and so forth: but you need to either be a *nix geek or have a slave geek at your disposal to get it working reliably. Nisus, though, lets you use all the tasty font goodness produced by Ka'onohi Kai (www.xenotypetech.com) out of the box - so that gets you all sorts of beautiful Himalayan fonts (Limbu, Lepcha...), including a really good set of Tibetan fonts. It also integrates well with Sente which is an amazing reference manager. Nisus is made for the academic market so has good referencing support.It was also one of the first word processors for the Mac, and is a very stable product with good support. In short, for South or Central Asian work, then Mellel is adequate, but Nisus is much better, and depending on technical skill, you can do anything with XeTeX. -WBTD. On 29 Apr 2009, at 14:30, Steven Lindquist wrote: > Madhav is right and I forgot to mention that Microsoft Word for Mac is > not 100% unicode compliant (but many programs are). Microsoft only > claims to be compatible with certain keyboards (I pasted below > Microsoft's unicode/keyboard statement). > > Based on the recommendation of several people, I will be transitioning > from Word to Mellel (http://www.redlers.com/) for this and other > reasons, unless anyone here could suggest a reason not to or a better > alternative. > > My best, > > Steven > > > > ---copied from: http://tiny.cc/nsoAJ "Unicode characters and > international keyboards" -- > > Unicode is an encoding standard that can represent the characters of > most written languages with a single character set. > > In Office 2008, you can type, display, and print Unicode characters > that are associated with the following keyboards: > > Australian, Austrian, Belgian, Brazilian, British, Bulgarian, > Canadian, Croatian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, Dvorak, Estonian, Faroese, > Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hawaiian, Hungarian, Icelandic, > Inuktitut, Irish, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Macedonian (FYROM), > Northern Sami, Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Russian, > Serbian, Slovak, Slovenian, Spanish, Swedish, Swiss French, Swiss > German, Turkish, U.S., Ukrainian, Unicode Hex Input, and Welsh. > > You can also use the following Mac OS X input methods: Hangul, > Kotoeri, Murasu Anjal Tamil, Simplified Chinese, and Traditional > Chinese. > > > On Apr 29, 2009, at 7:39 AM, Deshpande, Madhav wrote: > >> In my experience, the procedure described by Steven works on Mac >> OSX, but the MS Word (2008) does not fully support implimentation of >> unicode Devanagari, and hence the conjuncts do not show up >> properly. However, this procedure seems to work fine in Text-Edit, >> web browsers like Opera, and also i NeoOffice. However, the MS >> Office for Mac is not yet supporting Devanagari. If someone knows >> how to properly use unicode Devanagari with MS Word for Mac, I would >> like to know how to do it. Best, >> - - -- --- ----- -------- ------------- Dr. Will Tuladhar-Douglas Anthropology, History: Religion, Ecology Scottish Centre for Himalayan Research University of Aberdeen +44 (0)1224 272 274 From pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 29 23:23:58 2009 From: pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM (Pankaj Jain) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 09 00:23:58 +0100 Subject: terminology request Message-ID: <161227086079.23782.12363992746953506931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From my native knowledge of Hindi (which has several Sanskrit or neo- Sanskrit words): Vaigyaanik = Scientist Shodhak (or Shodha-Karta) = Researcher Pundit, Shaastri = Scholar