From alexpassi at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 11:42:04 2008 From: alexpassi at GMAIL.COM (Alex Passi) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 08 12:42:04 +0100 Subject: Compatible Font for Macs and PCs... In-Reply-To: <1228018110.6762.2.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <161227084064.23782.4094813100553976020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One more item: if you are using an extended US-Keyboard on Mac OS X-5 and a Unicode font such as Palatino (comes with the system), there are built-in combination keys for Skt. diacritics (for both capital and lowecase letters) OPT-w + letter = overdot OPT-x + letter = underdot OPT-e + letter = accented letter (as in ?iva) OPT-a + vowel = long vowel OPT-a + r long vowel r. OPT-n + n of course yields palatal n. I'm not sure about anunasika. You can probably compose it with the non- spacing character?? . Alex Passi On 30/11/2008, at 5:08 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: On Sat, 2008-11-29 at 13:49 +0530, Mary Storm wrote: > Yes, I tried Gandhari Unicode and it won't work. I think the problem > is OS X, but that has now been out on the market for a while. . . so > somebody has surely tackled this problem for Macs I was unable to get Gandhari Unicode to work in OpenOffice on a Linux platform. Fortunately, plenty of other Unicode fonts work quite well. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From r.mahoney at ICONZ.CO.NZ Mon Dec 1 01:58:44 2008 From: r.mahoney at ICONZ.CO.NZ (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 08 14:58:44 +1300 Subject: Diacritic for inter-consonantal vocalic r In-Reply-To: <977403.52682.qm@web8601.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084059.23782.8155791272654319799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dipak, On Mon, 2008-12-01 at 00:33, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > Could anyone enlighten me on the following? > What is the diacritic character for inter-consonntal or > ante-consonantal initial vocalic r in the different Sanskrit fonts > available for computers in the West? > As is well known since late nineteenth century it has been the practice > in the European continent to write a subscript ring below -r- for > this allophone. But in the UK quite a few publishers carry on the old > practice of writing a subscript dot below -r- which in the continent, > with most of the publishers, means the trilled allophone of the voiced > retroflex plosive .d. However, even in Germany a few publishers do not > mind using this dot-subscipted the vocalic -r-. This is also the > general practice in India where word-processors are still being > produced with this old diacritical sign. If one likes to print with > the subscript ring one has to produce the character on one's own. I > just like to know the position in the West regarding the available > computer font packages, particularly if authors have to help the press > in developing the character with subscript ring If your publisher uses LaTeX then the TIPA package is your friend: http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/fonts/tipa/ Putting a combining ring below any character is merely a case of: \textsubring{x} Kind regards, Richard -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Dec 1 11:33:45 2008 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 08 17:03:45 +0530 Subject: Diacritic for inter-consonantal vocalic r Message-ID: <161227084062.23782.4562167122983417255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1.12.08 I sincerely thank two of our learned members for the information. To avoid misunderstanding I should state that the problem had been solved here. I just wanted to know if the problem was unique to India. The information "R with ring below was not included in the Unicode standard"? is indeed the fact I was informed of at Calcutta. But I hardly believed that the situation could be the same in the West as in India. The men at work here took my suggestion of developing this character with some diffidence. This was puzzling. The addition "and there is no expectation that it will ever have a dedicated code point." is disheartening but explains the reason for the my initial puzzle. With thanks again DB Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Dec 2 18:50:14 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 08 18:50:14 +0000 Subject: Kulikov, Book announcement: Memorial vol. Elizarenkova (fwd) Message-ID: <161227084066.23782.12901186681837984947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> BOOK ANNOUNCEMENT Indologica. T. Ya. Elizarenkova Memorial Volume. Pt 1 / Sbornik statej pamjati T. Ja. Elizarenkovoj. Kniga 1. (Orientalia et Classica ; 20) Edited by Leonid Kulikov & Maxim Rusanov Moscow: Russian State University for the Humanities / Izdatel?stvo RGGU, 2008. 528 pp. ISBN 978-5-7281-1028-6 PRICE: Euro 35.- incl. postage The collection of papers Indologica is dedicated to the memory of Tatjana Jakovlevna Elizarenkova, the outstanding Russian indologist and Sanskritist, translator of the Rgveda and Atharvaveda, linguist and philologist, a renowned expert in the grammar of Vedic and Classical Sanskrit, as well as Pali, Hindi and other Indo-Aryan languages. Her works represent an important milestone in Indology. Many of those who have dedicated themselves to the study of Ancient Indian texts will remember her with admiration and gratitude. This volume is a modest homage to her memory. The book includes papers written by renowned scholars from Europe, USA and Japan, dealing with a wide range of Indological issues ? studies in ancient and mediaeval India, linguistics, literature, philosophy, religion and culture. TABLE OF CONTENTS Preface Vyach. Vs. Ivanov (Moscow?Los Angeles). Put' T.Ja. Elizarenkovoj v indologii [T. Ya. Elizarenkova?s Way in Indology] T. Ya. Elizarenkova: List of Scholarly Works ? V. N. Toporov. Sarasvati ? reka, rech', krasnorechie [Sarasvati: River, Speech, Eloquence] V. M. Alpatov (Moscow). Ivan Pavlovich Minaev kak jazykoved [Ivan Pavlovich Minayev as a Linguist] ? M. S. Andronov. Iz zametok o tamil'skoj fonetike [Notes on Tamil Phonetics] H. Bodewitz (Utrecht). The Refrain k?smai dev?ya hav?s? vidhema (RV 10, 121) H. Falk (Berlin). The Solar Year in the Gavamayana of the Nidanasutra T. Goto (Sendai). Reisekarren und das Wohnen in der H?tte: ??l?m as im Satapatha-Brahmana J. C. Heesterman (Leiden). The Epic Paragon of dharma Vyach. Vs. Ivanov (Moscow?Los Angeles). K issledovaniju pis'mennosti Xarappy [Towards the Study of the Harappan Script] S. Jamison (Los Angeles). Women?s Language in the Rig Veda? J. Klein (Athens, Georgia, USA). Adverbial Repetition in the Rigveda W. Knobl (Kyoto). Conspicuous Absence. A New Case of Intended Metrical Irregularity: The Catalectic Line RV 10.129.7b A. I. Kogan (Moscow). O statuse i proisxozhdenii zvonkoj pridyxatel'noj serii v rjade dardskix jazykov [On the Status and Origin of Voiced Aspirates in some Dardic Languages] F. Kortlandt (Leiden). The Origin of the Indo-Iranian Desiderative T. Krisch (Salzburg). Das neue Rigvedaw?rterbuch RIVELEX und die Bedeutung Tat?jana Elizarenkovas f?r das Projekt L. I. Kulikov (Leiden). The Vedic Causative samkhy?p?yati / samk??p?yati Reconsidered R. Lazzeroni (Pisa). Alternanza causativa e classi di presente in vedico: Contributo alla soluzione dell? ?enigma? di Kuiper N. R. Lidova (Moscow). Car' i zhrec v tradicii Nat'jashastry [King and Priest in the Natya??stra Tradition] V. P. Liperovsky (Moscow). Vyrazhenie v jazyke xindi kvantitativnoj segmentacii ob?ektov na osnove ix ischislenija v edinicax izmerenija (merax) [Quantitative Segmentation of Objects Based on their Measurement in Units: Evidence from Hindi] A. Lubotsky (Leiden). The Indo-Iranian Root stig- Chr. Minkowski (Oxford). Meanings Numerous and Numerical: Nilakantha and Magic Squares in the Rgveda S. L. Neveleva (St. Petersburg). Epicheskie rishi (po dannym Maxabharaty) [Epic rshis (according to the Mah?bh?rata)] G.-J. Pinault (Paris). About the Slaying of Soma: Uncovering the Rigvedic Witness N. I. Prigarina (Moscow). Krasota Jusufa v zerkalax persidskoj poezii i miniatjurnoj zhivopisi [Yusuf?s Beauty in the Mirrors of Persian Poetry and Book Illumination] V. N. Romanov (Moscow). O meditativnom znachenii glagola upa-?s (k zhanrovoj evoljucii brahmanicheskoj prozy) [On the Meditative Meaning of the Verb upa-?s (towards Genre Evolution of the Brahmanic Prose)] M. A. Rusanov (Moscow). Nagarjuna i Pa?upata v prakritskom romane ?Lilavai? [Nagarjuna and Pa?upata in the Prakritic Novel Lilavai] S. D. Serebryany (Moscow). Strofa o ?Bhavad-gite? v ?Narajanii? Meppattura Narajany Bhattatiri (XVI?XVII vv.) [A Strophe Mentioning the Bhagavadg?t? in the Narayaniya by Meppattur Narayana Bhattatiri (16th?17th cc.)] G. V. Strelkova (Moscow). Vepr' i kotenok. Metafory v romane Hazari Prasada Dvivedi ?Avtobiografija Banabhaty? [The Boar and the Kitten: Metaphors Used in the Autobiography of B?nabhatta by Haz?r? Pras?d Dvived?] E. Tichy (Freiburg). Mit dem Tag im Bunde: Vedisch jy?k und lateinisch di?, i?gis A. A. Vigasin (Moscow). ?Velikie? i ?malye? v nadpisjax Ashoki [The ?Great? and the ?Small? in Ashokan Inscriptions] C. Wright (London). Rgvedic gr?van, ?sri, and ks?p Send your orders to: L.Kulikov at hum.LeidenUniv.nl or kulikovli at gmail.com From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Dec 3 19:12:34 2008 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 08 11:12:34 -0800 Subject: Scan needed ~ Udanavarga pages In-Reply-To: <9D209E36518D4CB6B4C0281FA6FA7D6B@zen> Message-ID: <161227084081.23782.13847960250743342760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stephen Hodge, I'm on my way to the office and will be happy to send you a scan of the required Udanavarga pages later today. -- Concerning disappearing books, that isn't really much of a problem here (public university library, open access to anybody, but they do have tags in all books and beeping gates at the exit.) All best, Stefan Baums -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 19:06:48 2008 From: fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 08 14:06:48 -0500 Subject: Scan needed ~ Udanavarga pages In-Reply-To: <9D209E36518D4CB6B4C0281FA6FA7D6B@zen> Message-ID: <161227084075.23782.11445012516572733008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At McMaster University last year, the entire critical edition of the Mbh (they had had a first edition), disappeared -- not stolen -- but gone and removed entirely from their records as though it had never existed. Despite the fact that McMaster use to have a thriving Sanskrit program for decades and many have used the text over the years, the librarians claim that it could not have ever existed. . . . . BF On 12/3/08 1:31 PM, "Stephen Hodge" wrote: > PS: Is this phenomenon of depleted library stocks especially unique to SOAS > ? Every visit I make, I find that at least one out of every six books I am > looking for has disappeared. The security system is an absolute joke as > probably every student knows how to by-pass it ! > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Dec 3 15:46:22 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 08 15:46:22 +0000 Subject: Indology.info website temporarily offline Message-ID: <161227084069.23782.6548792115563326792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apologies all round: the website indology.info has been offline for a few hours. We are working hard to resolve the technical difficulty, and hope to be live again by the end of the day. The website has recently moved home - invisibly - from servers in the UK to better servers in the USA. But the former hosts in the UK gave us some wrong information and that has caused the difficulties in the transition. Best, Dominik From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Wed Dec 3 18:31:18 2008 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 08 18:31:18 +0000 Subject: Scan needed ~ Udanavarga pages Message-ID: <161227084071.23782.13823239842972590978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends, Does anybody have access to Vol I of Franz Berhard's edition of the Udaanavarga ? Yet again, I find that this is another book that has mysteriously disapppeared from the SOAS Library collection. If any kind soul could help, I need a scan of the few pages where he covers XXX.35-36 (the udana beginning "ayo-ghana-hatasya .. "). I would be indebted to anybody who could help ! Best wishes, Stephen Hodge PS: Is this phenomenon of depleted library stocks especially unique to SOAS ? Every visit I make, I find that at least one out of every six books I am looking for has disappeared. The security system is an absolute joke as probably every student knows how to by-pass it ! From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Wed Dec 3 18:56:35 2008 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 08 18:56:35 +0000 Subject: Scan needed ~ Udanavarga pages In-Reply-To: <9D209E36518D4CB6B4C0281FA6FA7D6B@zen> Message-ID: <161227084073.23782.3190152648205634159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stephen Manchester University Library apparently still has the book, though since re-organization it seems to have been placed in store, entailing a bit of notice to get hold of it. If you are still stuck tomorrow, let me know and I will try to pick it up when I go in to teach Sanskrit on Friday. Best wishes-- Valerie At 6:31 pm +0000 3/12/08, Stephen Hodge wrote: >Dear Friends, > >Does anybody have access to Vol I of Franz Berhard's edition of the >Udaanavarga ? Yet again, I find that this is another book that has >mysteriously disapppeared from the SOAS Library collection. If any >kind soul could help, I need a scan of the few pages where he covers >XXX.35-36 (the udana beginning "ayo-ghana-hatasya .. "). I would be >indebted to anybody who could help ! > >Best wishes, >Stephen Hodge > >PS: Is this phenomenon of depleted library stocks especially unique >to SOAS ? Every visit I make, I find that at least one out of every >six books I am looking for has disappeared. The security system is >an absolute joke as probably every student knows how to by-pass it ! From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Wed Dec 3 19:06:09 2008 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 08 19:06:09 +0000 Subject: Scan needed ~ Udanavarga pages Message-ID: <161227084078.23782.15324664989379108860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for sending a private message to the list. Valerie J Roebuck From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Wed Dec 3 23:49:27 2008 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 08 23:49:27 +0000 Subject: Scan needed ~ Udanavarga pages Message-ID: <161227084085.23782.13876758586051865357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to everybody who responded ~ I have taken up Stefan's kind offer. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Baums" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:12 PM Subject: Re: Scan needed ~ Udanavarga pages > Dear Stephen Hodge, > > I'm on my way to the office and will be happy to send you a scan > of the required Udanavarga pages later today. -- Concerning > disappearing books, that isn't really much of a problem here > (public university library, open access to anybody, but they do > have tags in all books and beeping gates at the exit.) > > All best, > Stefan Baums > > -- > Stefan Baums > Asian Languages and Literature > University of Washington From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Dec 4 07:45:14 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 08 07:45:14 +0000 Subject: Indology.info website temporarily offline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084087.23782.12583655778775510836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We're back up again. Apologies for any inconvenience. Best, Dominik On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Apologies all round: the website indology.info has been offline for a few > hours. We are working hard to resolve the technical difficulty, and hope > to be live again by the end of the day. > > The website has recently moved home - invisibly - from servers in the UK > to better servers in the USA. But the former hosts in the UK gave us some > wrong information and that has caused the difficulties in the transition. > > Best, > Dominik > From acollins at GCI.NET Fri Dec 5 07:34:54 2008 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 08 22:34:54 -0900 Subject: Buddhist universities Message-ID: <161227084090.23782.4898941063878468578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend who studies Christian monasticism asked me for a reference to a general book, monograph, or article on the Buddhist universities (Nalanda, etc.) in classical India. Does anybody know of such. Thanks, Al Collins From spootland at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 07:51:05 2008 From: spootland at HOTMAIL.COM (DiSimone Charles) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 08 23:51:05 -0800 Subject: Buddhist universities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084093.23782.6707130463334905475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Al, I am sure there are many sources for this query but _Buddhist Monks and Monasteries of India: Their History and Their Contribution to Indian Culture_ by Sukumar Dutt springs immediately to my mind. It might be helpful to your friend. It is a little old but very informative. Hope this is helpful, Charles DiSimone > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 22:34:54 -0900> From: acollins at GCI.NET> Subject: Buddhist universities> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk> > A friend who studies Christian monasticism asked me for a reference to a general book, monograph, or article on the Buddhist universities (Nalanda, etc.) in classical India. Does anybody know of such.> > Thanks,> > Al Collins _________________________________________________________________ Suspicious message? There?s an alert for that. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad2_122008 From fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU Fri Dec 5 09:26:15 2008 From: fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU (FRITS STAAL) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 08 01:26:15 -0800 Subject: Buddhist universities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084096.23782.1642369802051232538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My book Discovering the Vedas, Penguin INDIA first edition April second this November (should be out), pages 337-345 is on Nalanda and similar institutions. It is not a great deal but there are source notes and many further references. > A friend who studies Christian monasticism asked me for a reference to a > general book, monograph, or article on the Buddhist universities (Nalanda, > etc.) in classical India. Does anybody know of such. > > Thanks, > > Al Collins > Frits Staal http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Dec 5 10:04:57 2008 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 08 05:04:57 -0500 Subject: Buddhist universities Message-ID: <161227084098.23782.11061921444575990403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Most of the books on Nalanda tend to focus on the art, architecture, or archeological aspects. Here are some that might be helpful. Works on other universities, such as Valabhi, are rare. Altekar, Anant Sadashiv (1965). Education in Ancient India. Varanasi: Nand Kishore & Bros. Sastri, Hiranand (1986). Nalanda and Its Epigraphic Material. Delhi: Sri Satguru Publications Sankalia, H. D. (1972). The University of Nalanda. Oriental Publishers Nalanda, Past and Present: Silver Jubilee Souvenir (1977). ed. Chandrika Singh Upasak, Nava Nalanda Mahavihara Heritage of Nalanda and its continuity (2000). ed. R. Panth. Nalanda, Bihar : Nava Nalanda Mahavihara Nalanda and Buddhism (2002). ed. R. Panth. Nalanda : Nava Nalanda Mahavihara, 2002 Misra, Bhaskaranatha (1998) Nalanda, Delhi : B.R. Pub. Dan Lusthaus From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Fri Dec 5 14:13:27 2008 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 08 09:13:27 -0500 Subject: Buddhist universities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084101.23782.904125167001686350.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are a couple I know of Apte, D. G., Universities in Ancient India Sankalia, H. D., The Nalanda University, 2nd rev. ed. John On Dec 5, 2008, at 2:34 AM, Alfred Collins wrote: > A friend who studies Christian monasticism asked me for a reference > to a general book, monograph, or article on the Buddhist > universities (Nalanda, etc.) in classical India. Does anybody know > of such. > > Thanks, > > Al Collins > > > -- > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 755822362) is spam: > Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? > c=s&i=755822362&m=05b487d9de91 > Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? > c=n&i=755822362&m=05b487d9de91 > Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? > c=f&i=755822362&m=05b487d9de91 > ------------------------------------------------------ > END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Fri Dec 5 16:31:01 2008 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 08 11:31:01 -0500 Subject: Buddhist universities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084107.23782.6986726022323894602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Your friend probably already knows the Encyclopedia of Monasticism which concentrates on Christian and Buddhist. Just in case: William M. Johnston, ed., Encyclopedia of Monasticism: two vols., Chicago and London, Fitzroy and Dearborn publishers, 2000. John On Dec 5, 2008, at 11:17 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > ... and ch.9 et passim of the excellent, > > Education in Ancient India > By Hartmut Scharfe > Published by BRILL, 2002 > ISBN 9004125566, 9789004125568 > > http://books.google.com/books?id=7s19sZFRxCUC > > > > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow > University College London > > > > On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, Alfred Collins wrote: > >> A friend who studies Christian monasticism asked me for a >> reference to a general book, monograph, or article on the Buddhist >> universities (Nalanda, etc.) in classical India. Does anybody know >> of such. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Al Collins >> > > > -- > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 756091005) is spam: > Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? > c=s&i=756091005&m=2d38456751a5 > Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? > c=n&i=756091005&m=2d38456751a5 > Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? > c=f&i=756091005&m=2d38456751a5 > ------------------------------------------------------ > END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Dec 5 16:17:01 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 08 16:17:01 +0000 Subject: Buddhist universities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084103.23782.16883284739560614763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ... and ch.9 et passim of the excellent, Education in Ancient India By Hartmut Scharfe Published by BRILL, 2002 ISBN 9004125566, 9789004125568 http://books.google.com/books?id=7s19sZFRxCUC -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow University College London On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, Alfred Collins wrote: > A friend who studies Christian monasticism asked me for a reference to a > general book, monograph, or article on the Buddhist universities > (Nalanda, etc.) in classical India. Does anybody know of such. > > Thanks, > > Al Collins > From veltsch at OEAW.AC.AT Fri Dec 5 16:40:32 2008 From: veltsch at OEAW.AC.AT (Vincent Eltschinger) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 08 17:40:32 +0100 Subject: Buddhist universities In-Reply-To: <8742A8F4-8413-4E9E-A79E-A5FB21D7D880@osu.edu> Message-ID: <161227084110.23782.8618040154431845973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Worthy of mention if not (always) of reading are the following titles: Debjani Paul: The Art of Nalanda. Development of Buddhist Sculpture AD 600-1200. Delhi 1995: Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers G.C. Chauley: Art and Architecture of Nalanda. New Delhi 2002: Sundeep Prakashan B.N. Misra: Nalanda. 3 volumes. Delhi 1998: B.R. Publishing Corporation. Vincent Eltschinger Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia Austrian Academy of Sciences (Vienna) > Your friend probably already knows the Encyclopedia of Monasticism > which concentrates on Christian and Buddhist. > > > Just in case: > > William M. Johnston, ed., Encyclopedia of Monasticism: two vols., > Chicago and London, Fitzroy and Dearborn publishers, 2000. > > John > > > On Dec 5, 2008, at 11:17 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >> ... and ch.9 et passim of the excellent, >> >> Education in Ancient India >> By Hartmut Scharfe >> Published by BRILL, 2002 >> ISBN 9004125566, 9789004125568 >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=7s19sZFRxCUC >> >> >> >> -- >> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >> Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow >> University College London >> >> >> >> On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, Alfred Collins wrote: >> >>> A friend who studies Christian monasticism asked me for a >>> reference to a general book, monograph, or article on the Buddhist >>> universities (Nalanda, etc.) in classical India. Does anybody know >>> of such. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Al Collins >>> >> >> >> -- >> BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 756091005) is spam: >> Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? >> c=s&i=756091005&m=2d38456751a5 >> Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? >> c=n&i=756091005&m=2d38456751a5 >> Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? >> c=f&i=756091005&m=2d38456751a5 >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >> > From r.mahoney at ICONZ.CO.NZ Sat Dec 6 01:11:04 2008 From: r.mahoney at ICONZ.CO.NZ (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 08 14:11:04 +1300 Subject: Buddhist universities In-Reply-To: <62720.61.19.65.59.1228469175.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227084113.23782.5279971245478126157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Al, On Fri, 2008-12-05 at 22:26, FRITS STAAL wrote: > > A friend who studies Christian monasticism asked me for a reference to a > > general book, monograph, or article on the Buddhist universities (Nalanda, > > etc.) in classical India. Does anybody know of such. Your friend may find this useful: International Standard Book Number * International Standard Book Number: 0824825470(: hardcover) International Standard Book Number * International Standard Book Number: 0824827740(: pbk) Main entry--personal name * Personal name: Schopen, Gregory. Title statement * Title: Buddhist monks and business matters : * Remainder of title: still more papers on monastic Buddhism in India / * Remainder of title page transcription/statement of responsibility: Gregory Schopen. Publication, distribution, etc. (imprint) * Place of publication, distribution, etc.: Honolulu : * Name of publisher, distributor, etc.: University of Hawai?i Press, * Date of publication, distribution, etc.: c2004. General note * General note: Includes bibliographical references and index. General note * General note: HTTP:URL=http://www.loc.gov/catdir/toc/ecip045/2003013832.html Information=Table of contents. Best, Richard -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From acollins at GCI.NET Sun Dec 7 05:06:25 2008 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 08 20:06:25 -0900 Subject: Buddhist universities In-Reply-To: <1228525863.6801.94.camel@proliant> Message-ID: <161227084119.23782.15590519367754492453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to all who responded. This list is indeed an invaluable resource. Al Collins, Ph.D. From ute.huesken at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Sat Dec 6 21:14:21 2008 From: ute.huesken at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Ute Huesken) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 08 22:14:21 +0100 Subject: Muslim widows in India Message-ID: <161227084117.23782.11649502296058315097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, a student asked me for literature on the situation of Muslim women in India, compared to Hindu women, specifically on widows. Is there any literature out there on that topic? Thanks in advance Ute Huesken -- Ute Huesken Professor of Sanskrit Department of Culture Studies and Oriental Languages University of Oslo Faculty of Humanities P.O. Box 1010 Blindern N-0315 Oslo Norway Room 387, P.A. Munch's Building phone: +47 22 85 48 16 telefax: +47 22 85 48 28 ute.huesken at ikos.uio.no http://www.hf.uio.no/ikos/om-instituttet/ansatte/vit/uteh.xml http://www.kanchi-project.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/ From julieta.rotaru at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 7 15:06:03 2008 From: julieta.rotaru at GMAIL.COM (Julieta Rotaru) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 08 07:06:03 -0800 Subject: Atharvaveda and its Paippalada ;Saakhaa Message-ID: <161227084126.23782.11406945144456308914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be interested to acquire the volume The Atharvaveda and its Paippalada ;Saakhaa: Historical and Philological Papers on a Vedic Tradition, edited by Arlo Griffiths and Annette Schmiedchen. Aachen: Shaker Verlag, 2007. Geisteskultur Indiens: Texte und Studien, 11, Indologica Halensis. Does anyone know if this is still available and how can it be obtained? Thanking you, Julieta Rotaru University of Bucharest From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Sun Dec 7 11:30:41 2008 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 08 12:30:41 +0100 Subject: Muslim widows in India In-Reply-To: <20081206221421.l3xb57dcocsggg00@wwwmail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <161227084123.23782.13556323833241298642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 06.12.2008 um 22:14 schrieb Ute Huesken: > > a student asked me for literature on the situation of Muslim women > in India, compared to Hindu women, specifically on widows. > Is there any literature out there on that topic? This year, there came out a big bibliographical work on Muslim women in India (or rather: South Asia) that may help: Aftab, Tahera: Inscribing South Asian muslim women : an annotated bibliography & research guide / by Tahera Aftab. - Leiden ; Boston : Brill, 2008. - xl, 616 p. - (Handbook of Oriental studies = Handbuch der Orientalistik. Section 1, The Near and Middle East ; vol. 91). - ISBN 978-90-04-15849-8 / 90-04-15849-9 (Hardback) URL: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=210&pid=18007 All the best Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 53113 Bonn From juergen.neuss at FU-BERLIN.DE Sun Dec 7 15:23:15 2008 From: juergen.neuss at FU-BERLIN.DE (=?utf-8?Q?J=C3=BCrgen_Neuss?=) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 08 16:23:15 +0100 Subject: Atharvaveda and its Paippalada ;Saakhaa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084128.23782.2801052151201430839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear julieta, a search for atharvaveda on http://www.shaker.eu/Catalogue/ will lead you to a page, where you could donload a non-printable .pdf copy of the book. on the same page it should be possible to order a physical paper copy as well, but i did not try to locate that. best regards jn On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:06:03 +0100, Julieta Rotaru wrote: > I would be interested to acquire the volume The Atharvaveda and its > Paippalada ;Saakhaa: Historical and Philological Papers on a Vedic > Tradition, edited by Arlo Griffiths and Annette Schmiedchen. Aachen: > Shaker > Verlag, 2007. Geisteskultur Indiens: Texte und Studien, 11, Indologica > Halensis. > > Does anyone know if this is still available and how can it be obtained? > > Thanking you, > Julieta Rotaru > University of Bucharest > -- ???????????????????????????????????????????????? Dr. J?rgen Neu? Freie Universit?t Berlin Institut f?r die Sprachen und Kulturen S?dasiens K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34 a D-14195 Berlin ?????????????????????????? juergen.neuss at fu-berlin.de From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Mon Dec 8 07:23:02 2008 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 08 08:23:02 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: Classical Tamil Summer Seminar plus Bhakti Workshop 2009] (EFEO Pondicherry) Message-ID: <161227084131.23782.16936947940548885273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------- Message original -------- Sujet : Classical Tamil Summer Seminar plus Bhakti Workshop 2009 Date : Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:51:44 +0100 De : Eva Wilden Dear friends and colleagues, the EFEO Pondicherry has the pleasure to announce to you the *Classical Tamil Summer Seminar in 2009* Organised by the centre of the ?cole Fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient in Pondicherry, 3^rd to 28^th of August 2009 Next year Tamil in Winter will once again be Tamil in Summer, for the simple reason that we are planning a double event, that is, a seminar followed by a workshop. The whole month thus will be devoted to Tamil bhakti, devotional literature. Out of two weeks seminar, one will be occupied by Shaiva texts, and here we have chosen Kaaraikkaalammaiyaar, probably the earliest part of the TirumuRai, and certainly not the easiest. Depending on speed we might be able to cover TiruviraTTai MaNimaalai and quite a bit of TiruvaalaGkaaTTu Muuttatiruppatikam. The second week will focus on Vaishnava literature. Out of the oeuvre of AaNTaaL we might want to look into the Naacciyaartirumozi, less well-known than the Tiruppaavai. For the final two weeks, then, scholars will read and discuss particular texts chosen by them in order to elucidate different aspects of internal and external chronology of Tamil bhakti texts. On the one hand we are faced with the issues of linguistic development (morphology plus syntax) and of intertextual relationship and literary affiliation, on the other hand bhakti texts are reflected in inscriptions and they did have an impact on iconographical representation. For full details see: The announcement of the bhakti workshop is found on a separate web site: best wishes Thomas Lehmann Eva Wilden From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 10 22:58:56 2008 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 08 14:58:56 -0800 Subject: RasAyana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084140.23782.12992235974973031615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Probably you refer to the message which Oliver Hellwig sent to the Indology List in February this year. I paste it below. Incidentally, this is a question that can easily find an answer through the Archive function of the List, freely accessible to all (http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/indology.html). Jan Houben James Hartzell wrote: Colleagues A few months back there was a posting to the list announcing a new, online RasAyana terminology dictionary. Could someone supply the link? James Hartzell U. Manitoba *** Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 23:20:22 +0000 Reply-To: Indology <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Indology <[log in to unmask]> From: Oliver Hellwig <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Online-dictionary of Indian alchemy Comments: To: [log in to unmask] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Dear list members, I would like to announce the release of an online-dictionary of alchemical texts in Sanskrit. The site can be found at www.sanskritreader.de (follow the link for Rasavidya/Indian alchemy; and make sure that JavaScript is activated). Best, O. Hellwig From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 21:24:42 2008 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 08 23:24:42 +0200 Subject: RasAyana Message-ID: <161227084134.23782.10272417710824508598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Colleagues A few months back there was a posting to the list announcing a new, online RasAyana terminology dictionary. Could someone supply the link? James Hartzell U. Manitoba From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 11 01:32:32 2008 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 08 03:32:32 +0200 Subject: RasAyana In-Reply-To: <206742.46457.qm@web43134.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084143.23782.5862561958928346958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That's exactly it. Thanks for the quick response James hartzell On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Probably you refer to the message which Oliver Hellwig sent to the Indology > List in February this year. I paste it below. Incidentally, this is a > question that can easily find an answer through the Archive function of the > List, freely accessible to all ( > http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/indology.html). > Jan Houben > > > James Hartzell wrote: > Colleagues > > A few months back there was a posting to the list announcing a new, online > RasAyana terminology dictionary. Could someone supply the link? > > James Hartzell > U. Manitoba > > > *** > > Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 23:20:22 +0000 Reply-To: Indology <[log > in to unmask]> Sender: Indology <[log in to unmask]> From: > Oliver Hellwig <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Online-dictionary of > Indian alchemy Comments: To: [log in to unmask] Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="windows-1252" Dear list members, I would like to announce the > release of an online-dictionary of alchemical texts in Sanskrit. The site > can be found at www.sanskritreader.de (follow the link for > Rasavidya/Indian alchemy; and make sure that JavaScript is activated). > Best, O. Hellwig > > > > From D.Osto at MASSEY.AC.NZ Wed Dec 10 22:12:45 2008 From: D.Osto at MASSEY.AC.NZ (Osto, Douglas) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 08 11:12:45 +1300 Subject: FYI: New Book on Indian Mahayana Buddhism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084137.23782.852866482350692346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, For those of you who might be interested, my book is now available for purchase from Routledge: Power, Wealth and Women in Indian Mah?y?na Buddhism: The Gan.d.avy?ha-s?tra. http://www.routledge.com/books/Power-Wealth-and-Women-in-Indian-Mahayana-Buddhism-isbn9780415480734 Apologies for the self-promotion, Doug Osto Dr. Douglas Osto Religious Studies Programme School of History, Philosophy and Classics Massey University Private Bag 11 222 Palmerston North, New Zealand Tel: 64 6 356 9099 ex. 7608 http://hpc.massey.ac.nz/massey/depart/cohss/schools/school-of-history-philosophy-and-classics/staff/douglas-osto.cfm From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Fri Dec 12 07:10:00 2008 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 08 07:10:00 +0000 Subject: Publication Announcement Message-ID: <161227084146.23782.14215095921240735705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oliver Hahn, Eine altindische Syntaxlehre. Devasarmans Samanvayapradipa nebst Autokommentar. Edition, ?bersetzung, Studie. Aachen: Shaker-Verlag 2008. (Geisteskultur Indiens. Texte und Studien. 12.) 49,80 EUR. ISBN: 978-3-8322-7608-9. English Orderpage: Shaker Online. ---------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 mailto:walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Mon Dec 15 14:06:42 2008 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 08 09:06:42 -0500 Subject: Tantra questions: bija mantras and Woodroffe's reputation today In-Reply-To: <4945EB1E.8060607@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084156.23782.10587165931180724833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Extensive Buddhist Mantras may be found in the commentary and text section of Willson, Martin and Martin Brauen (eds.) Deities of Tibetan Buddhism: The Zurich Paintings of the Icons Worthwhile to See Boston, Wisdom Publications, 2000 On Dec 15, 2008, at 12:29 AM, Dean Michael Anderson wrote: > I have a couple of Tantra questions. > > Can anyone recommend good books on bIja mantras? > > Second, what is the modern opinion about the early writings on > Tantra by John Woodroffe (Arthur Avalon)? > > Best, > > Dean > > Dean Anderson > East West Cultural Institute > > > -- > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 762789961) is spam: > Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=762789961&m=1998cdb27e84 > Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=762789961&m=1998cdb27e84 > Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=762789961&m=1998cdb27e84 > ------------------------------------------------------ > END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > From mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU Sun Dec 14 22:14:06 2008 From: mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 08 09:14:06 +1100 Subject: From Dr Tamara Ditrich: International Conference on Ayurveda Message-ID: <161227084149.23782.9332367743211497461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *Page 1* *The International Conference on Ayurveda* *?Ayurveda: A New Way for Healthy Life in Europe?* *March 5-6, 2009* *Organizers* *University of Primorska (Slovenia):* *Faculty of Humanities Koper, Science and Research Centre of Koper,* *College of Health Care Izola, Faculty of Tourism Studies Portoro?* and *Embassy of India (Ljubljana, Slovenia)* *Sponsor: *Slovenian Research Agency /*Keynote Address*/ *Dr Devapagal Nigel Hubbers, *Vice President of APA (Ayurvedic Practitioners Association) and EUAA (European Ayurveda Association), UK *Dr Ram Harsh Singh*, Professor Emeritus, Department of Kayachikitsa, Institute of Medical Sciences, Banaras Hindu University, Varanasi, India /*Plenary lectures*/ *Dr Regis A. DeSilva, *Associate Professor of Medicine, Harvard Medical School, Director Partners-Harvard Medical International, U.S.A. *Dr Thomas Vallomtharyil, *Chief Executive Officer, Medical Park Ruhr, Germa From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Dec 15 15:06:54 2008 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 08 10:06:54 -0500 Subject: Tantra questions: bija mantras and Woodroffe's reputation today In-Reply-To: <4945EB1E.8060607@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084159.23782.16728429669278334912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About the work of John Woodroffe & Atal Behari Ghosh, see: Kathleen Taylor, _Sir John Woodroffe, Tantra and Bengal_. London: Curzon (2001). best, Paul Hackett Columbia University At 10:59 AM +0530 12/15/08, Dean Michael Anderson wrote: >I have a couple of Tantra questions. > >Can anyone recommend good books on bIja mantras? > >Second, what is the modern opinion about the early writings on >Tantra by John Woodroffe (Arthur Avalon)? > >Best, > >Dean > >Dean Anderson >East West Cultural Institute From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Dec 15 16:44:00 2008 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 08 10:44:00 -0600 Subject: Tantra questions: bija mantras and Woodroffe's reputation today Message-ID: <161227084161.23782.13409690946391128282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would suggest the writings of Andr? Padoux, esp. Vac: The Concept of the Word, though his short, elegant summary in French, L'energie de la parole, is in many respects more accessible. A good place to begin might also be the late Harvey Alper's anthology, Understanding Mantra. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 15 05:29:02 2008 From: eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 08 10:59:02 +0530 Subject: Tantra questions: bija mantras and Woodroffe's reputation today In-Reply-To: <206742.46457.qm@web43134.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084151.23782.5974259078881374057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a couple of Tantra questions. Can anyone recommend good books on bIja mantras? Second, what is the modern opinion about the early writings on Tantra by John Woodroffe (Arthur Avalon)? Best, Dean Dean Anderson East West Cultural Institute From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Mon Dec 15 10:04:22 2008 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 08 11:04:22 +0100 Subject: Oldest dated paper manuscripts from India and Nepal? Message-ID: <161227084154.23782.15795274451190586990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, I am wondering what might be the oldest dated paper mss from India and Nepal respectively that are currently known. For India, I am aware of Alsdorf's reference to a Jaina ms of the Karmagrantha?ippa?aka (Jaisalmer) from 1198 CE (Alsdorf 1951: 62). For Nepal, Trier 1972: 132 reports a Pa?carak?? ms of 1105 CE (N.S. 225) as the oldest dated paper ms (at the time kept in the Asutosh Museum, Calcutta, ms. plate 121), made of Thymelaeaceae fibre. (References: Alsdorf, Ludwig: "Neues von alten Jaina-Bibliotheken." Beitr?ge zur indischen Philologie und Altertumskunde. Walter Schubring zum 70. Geburtstag dargebracht von der deutschen Indologie (Alt- und Neu-Indische Studien 7). Hamburg (1951), 59-65. Trier, Jesper: "Ancient Paper of Nepal. Results of ethno-technological field-work on its manufacture, uses and history - with technical analyses of bast, paper and manuscripts" Jutland Archaeological Society Publications 10. Copenhagen (1972).) Does anyone know of any older *dated* paper mss? Thanks in advance, and best regards, Birgit Kellner From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 15 19:44:02 2008 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 08 20:44:02 +0100 Subject: a publication Message-ID: <161227084163.23782.18221837787428895938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> before the year ends: a contribution -- not directly to indology but (in part) to its history -- which may have escaped the attention of potentially interested list readers: The Study of Religion under the Impact of Fascism Horst Junginger Publication year: 2007 Series: Numen Book Series, 117 Leiden: Brill ISBN-13 (i)The ISBN (International Standard Book Number) has been changed from 10 to 13 digits on 1 January 2007: 978 90 04 16326 3 The Aryan myth -- From Buddha to Adolf Hitler : Walther Wust and the Aryan tradition / Horst Junginger -- Hermann Guntert in the 1930s : Heidelberg, politics, and the study of Germanic/indogermanic religion / Bruce Lincoln -- "Quand l'allemagne etait leur mecque ..." la science des religions chez Stig Wikander (1935-1941) / Mihaela Timus -- Bernhard Hummer (1897-1962) : the study of religions between religious devotion for the ancient Germans, political agitation, and academic habitus / Fritz Heinrich -- Irrational experiences, heroic deeds and the extraction of surplus / Gustavo Benavides -- The political impact in south-eastern Europe -- Leonidas Philippidis and the beginnings of the history of religions as an academic discipline in Greece / Vasilios N. Makrides -- War-time connections : Dumezil and Eliade, Eliade and Schmitt, Schmitt and Evola, Drieu la Rochelle and Dumezil / Cristiano Grottanelli -- Entre ideologie de la culture et politique : Mircea Eliade et l'etude des religions dans la roumanie de l'entre-deux-guerres / Florin Turcanu -- Raffaele pettazzoni et Mircea Eliade : historiens des religions generalistes devant les fascismes (1933-1945) / Eugen Ciurtin -- Raffaele Pettazzoni and the history of religions in fascist Italy (1928-1938) / Michael Stausberg -- Politische myopie, mystische revolution, gluckliche (un)schuld, Mircea Eliade und die legionare bewegung : rezentere rumanische perspektiven / Istvan Keul -- The Catholic perspective -- Maria Laachs "liturgische bewegung" im allgemeinen und odo casels , "Mysterientheologie" im besonderen : ein doppelter ruckblick auf katholische religionsgeschichte, mit seitenblicken auf Mircea Eliade und Stefan George / Richard Faber -- Friedrich Andres (1882-1947) : ein theologischer religionswissenschaftler an der universitat Bonn / Ulrich Vollmer -- Antisemitismus und antijudaismus in den werken und arbeiten pater wilhelm schmidts S.V.D. (1868-1954) / Udo Mischek -- The Protestant paradigm -- Religionswissenschaft zwischen rationalismus und irrationalismus : ein norwegisches Beispiel : der fall Kristian Schjelderups / Sigurd Hjelde -- Haralds Biezais (1909-1995) : ein religionshistoriker zwischen theologie und religionswissenschaft / Iveta Leitqne -- The essence of concrete individuality : Gerardus van der Leeuw, Jan de Vries, and national socialism / Willem Hofstee -- Ake ohlmarks in the Third Reich : a scientific career between adaptation, cooperation and ignorance / Andreas Akerlund -- The quest for theories -- The "faith of the enlightened" by Wladyslaw Witwicki : an example of the conflct between academic research and political correctness / Halina GrzymaLa-Moszczydska -- Futures past : C.G. Jung's psychoutopia and the German Revolution of 1933 / Petteri Pietikainen -- Strategies in representing Japanese religion during the national socialist period : the cases of Kitayama Junyu and Wilhelm Gundert / Hiroshi Kubota -- Joachim Wachs grundlegung der religionswissenschaft : ein beitrag zu ihrer identitat und selbstandigkeit / Kurt Rudolph. -- Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes Chaire: Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. JEMHouben at gmail.com From jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 16 12:52:05 2008 From: jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM (girish jha) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 08 04:52:05 -0800 Subject: Tantra questions: bija mantras and Woodroffe's reputation today In-Reply-To: <4945EB1E.8060607@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084166.23782.9205766981077326653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Anderson, I would like to suggest you to consult Varnabijaprakasa an authoritative book on Bijamantras written by Pt Sarayu P. Dvivedi,edited by Dr Paramahansa Misra,published by Chowkhamba Surabharati Prakashan,Varanasi,INDIA.This book can help you in interpreting Bijamantras authentically. As regards Mr John Woodroffe's repute books edited by him are really considered authoritative,but both Intellectual exercise and Tantric Sadhana are different things. I understand this might be helping you. Regards, Sincerely GIRISH K. JHA, DEPT OF SANSKRIT, PATNA UNIVERSITY,INDIA --- On Sun, 12/14/08, Dean Michael Anderson wrote: From: Dean Michael Anderson Subject: Tantra questions: bija mantras and Woodroffe's reputation today To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 9:29 PM I have a couple of Tantra questions. Can anyone recommend good books on bIja mantras? Second, what is the modern opinion about the early writings on Tantra by John Woodroffe (Arthur Avalon)? Best, Dean Dean Anderson East West Cultural Institute From slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU Tue Dec 16 13:08:45 2008 From: slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU (Steven Lindquist) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 08 07:08:45 -0600 Subject: Tantra questions: bija mantras and Woodroffe's reputation today In-Reply-To: <859107.58125.qm@web57706.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084168.23782.5151721730435253762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Numerous references to bIja mantras can also be found in: Robert Yelle, Explaining Mantras: Ritual, Rhetoric, and the Dream of a Natural Language in Hindu Tantra, New York/London: Routledge, 2003. -- Steven Lindquist Department of Religious Studies Southern Methodist University faculty.smu.edu/slindqui -- > > > --- On Sun, 12/14/08, Dean Michael Anderson > wrote: > > From: Dean Michael Anderson > Subject: Tantra questions: bija mantras and Woodroffe's reputation > today > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 9:29 PM > > I have a couple of Tantra questions. > > Can anyone recommend good books on bIja mantras? > > Second, what is the modern opinion about the early writings on > Tantra by John > Woodroffe (Arthur Avalon)? > > Best, > > Dean > > Dean Anderson > East West Cultural Institute > > > > From Joerg.Gengnagel at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Tue Dec 16 14:12:01 2008 From: Joerg.Gengnagel at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Joerg Gengnagel) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 08 15:12:01 +0100 Subject: Tantra questions: bija mantras and Woodroffe's reputation today In-Reply-To: <4945EB1E.8060607@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084171.23782.7350334160967368092.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dean, the following might be of interest: Taylor, Kathleen. 1996. Arthur Avalon: The Creation of a Legendary Orientalist. In: Julia Leslie (ed.): Myth and Mythmaking, Surrey 1996, 144-164. A few other references to related articles: Brunner, H?l?ne. 1986. Les membres de ?iva. In: Asiatische Studien 40, 1: 89-132. Hanneder, J?rgen 1998. Vedic and Tantric Mantras. In: Rivista degli studi Orientali. 71: 147-167. Padoux, Andr?. 1978: Contributions ? l'?tude du mantra??stra I: La selection des mantra (mantroddh?ra). In: B?FEO 65: 65-85. Padoux, Andr?. 1980: Contributions ? l'?tude du mantra??stra II: ny?sa: l' imposition rituelle des mantra. In: B?FEO 67: 59-102. Padoux, Andr?. 1987: Contributions ? l'?tude du mantra??stra III: le japa. In: B?FEO 76: 117-164. Padoux, Andr?. 1994: Concerning Mantrado?a. Some Light on the Nature of Mantras. In: Pandit N.R. Bhatt Felicitation Volume. P.-S. Filliozat, S.P. Narang, C.P. Bhatta (eds.), Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass: 499?510. Best Joerg From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 16 18:19:18 2008 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 08 19:19:18 +0100 Subject: belated sad announcement Message-ID: <161227084174.23782.1138214628098488920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> before the year ends: around 14 august a message appeared in a Marathi newspaper according to which Dr. S.D. Laddu had passed away two days earlier at the age of 82. Dr. S.D. Laddu was professor at the CASS and later on co-editor of the Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute. He helped and guided many doctoral and postdoctoral students. His work Evolution of the Sanskrit Language from Panini to Patanjali (Poona 1974) implies a historical development of a "living" sanskrit in the centuries after Panini. It has been disputed that this is what Katyayana and Patanjali tried to describe or that such development can indeed be inferred from the available data. Cf. the divergent reviews by Rocher (JAOS vol. 97) and Cardona (Language 53). -- Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes, Chaire: Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP, A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. Senior research fellow, International Institute for Asian Studies, P.O. Box 9515, Leiden -- The Netherlands. JEMHouben at gmail.com www.jyotistoma.nl From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 16 18:46:25 2008 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 08 19:46:25 +0100 Subject: recent publication on Indian mammals Message-ID: <161227084176.23782.10356771754612677502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Recent book by Alexandra van der Geer (M.A., Ph.D., M.Sc.): Animals in Stone: Indian Mammals Sculptured Through Time Leiden: Brill, 2008; Series: Handbook of Oriental Studies. Section 2 South Asia, 21 ISBN-13: 978 90 04 16819 0 Pp: lxxii, 814. List price: ? 167.00 / US$ 249.00 >From blurp: With this richly illustrated book, the first of its kind, Van der Geer offers a comparative study of the ways in which various animals have been depicted and a lucid analysis of the sculptors' treatment of their "models": living animals. The art history of sculptured animals is contextualized with a description of the use of animals as can be read from ancient texts, archaeological evidence and contemporaneous culture. In doing so, parallels as well as differences in style or iconography are highlighted, elucidating the variety of animal depictions across regions, religious contexts and through time. The corpus of discussed material ranges from Indus seals, stupa panels and railings, monumental temples from North and South India, non-religious palace and fort architecture to loose sculptures in museum collections. Readership: All those interested in South Asian art history, the history of domestication and animal use, the role of animals in folklore and religion, and the past distribution of Indian mammals. -- Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes, Chaire: Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP, A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. Senior research fellow, International Institute for Asian Studies, P.O. Box 9515, Leiden -- The Netherlands. JEMHouben at gmail.com www.jyotistoma.nl From tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Dec 17 17:00:15 2008 From: tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Tenzin Bob Thurman) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 08 12:00:15 -0500 Subject: saptaratna (navaratna) In-Reply-To: <4E77A0E2-5E88-43C8-B817-CE48279B8A1E@let.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227084191.23782.8268263254135163340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> These "seven jewels of royalty" are extremely common in Indo-Tibetan Buddhist literature, recited in numerous texts. I'll look arond for some citations. Best Bob Thurman Arlo Griffiths wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I am interested in the concept of 7 (or 9) 'jewels' denoting certain > standard lists composed of people and insignia at the king's court, as > e.g. in Mahaavastu I.49 (ed. Senart): > > tasya imaani sapta ratnaani abhunsu | sayyathiida.m cakraratna.m > hastiratna.m a;svaratna.m > ma.niratna.m striiratna.m g.rhapatiratna.m parinaayakaratnam eva > saptama.m > > I have hitherto failed to find good examples of this meaning of > saptaratna in brahmanical texts, nor am I aware of any discussions of > this list (or similar lists) in secondary literature. > > I would be very grateful for references. > > Arlo Griffiths > ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (Jakarta) > Instituut Kern, Universiteit Leiden > > From ATHR at LOC.GOV Wed Dec 17 17:44:05 2008 From: ATHR at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 08 12:44:05 -0500 Subject: questions on bodhisattva vow Message-ID: <161227084196.23782.13111863031557861706.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have done so before him. 1. Does this mean never? 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified from nirvana? 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) 4. Or do new sentient beings somehow get started, replacing the ones that have entered into nirvana? (I can't remember any S.Asian source that says new sentient beings come into existence, except (according to B. L. Atreya somewhere, the YogavAsiSTHa). 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Dec 17 18:32:48 2008 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 08 13:32:48 -0500 Subject: questions on bodhisattva vow In-Reply-To: <4948F4150200003A0004B3DF@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084198.23782.16555785937954313940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Allen, If I remember correctly, it is said that there are two types of vows: actual and aspirational, that is, those that are actually accomplishable, and others that are merely aspirational. This vow would fall into the latter category because it is not possible to actually fulfill it. I can't remember the exact reference, possibly Tsong-kha-pa's Lam-rim-chen-mo, but if I find it I'll post it. regards, Paul Hackett Columbia University At 12:44 PM -0500 12/17/08, Allen W Thrasher wrote: >The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all >other sentient beings have done so before him. > >1. Does this mean never? >2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified >from nirvana? >3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so >though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? >(I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's >said.) >4. Or do new sentient beings somehow get started, replacing the >ones that have entered into nirvana? (I can't remember any S.Asian >source that says new sentient beings come into existence, except >(according to B. L. Atreya somewhere, the YogavAsiSTHa). >5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? > > >Allen > > > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >Senior Reference Librarian >Team Coordinator >South Asia Team, Asian Division >Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 >101 Independence Ave., S.E. >Washington, DC 20540-4810 >tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov >The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the >Library of Congress. From ATHR at LOC.GOV Wed Dec 17 18:38:38 2008 From: ATHR at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 08 13:38:38 -0500 Subject: shirt studs in India Message-ID: <161227084201.23782.11092081626637840228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Struggling with my black tie for the Romila Thapar award ceremony last week, the following question occurred to me. For special events Indian men will frequently wear silver, gold, or jeweled shirt studs, with a chain inside the shirt keeping them together and safe (very good idea). In the Indian antique shops I have seen older ones, though I have no way of guessing their dates. I have never seen the chained ones in Western antique shops. Is there any evidence whether the use of studs existed before the British era? Were they in use in Islamicate societies? I don't recall seeing them in miniatures. Usually, of course, the shirts are double-breasted and fastened at the shoulder. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From arlo.griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Wed Dec 17 14:17:47 2008 From: arlo.griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 08 15:17:47 +0100 Subject: saptaratna (navaratna) Message-ID: <161227084178.23782.4333602165774966546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I am interested in the concept of 7 (or 9) 'jewels' denoting certain standard lists composed of people and insignia at the king's court, as e.g. in Mahaavastu I.49 (ed. Senart): tasya imaani sapta ratnaani abhunsu | sayyathiida.m cakraratna.m hastiratna.m a;svaratna.m ma.niratna.m striiratna.m g.rhapatiratna.m parinaayakaratnam eva saptama.m I have hitherto failed to find good examples of this meaning of saptaratna in brahmanical texts, nor am I aware of any discussions of this list (or similar lists) in secondary literature. I would be very grateful for references. Arlo Griffiths ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (Jakarta) Instituut Kern, Universiteit Leiden From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Wed Dec 17 15:32:29 2008 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 08 16:32:29 +0100 Subject: saptaratna (navaratna) In-Reply-To: <4E77A0E2-5E88-43C8-B817-CE48279B8A1E@let.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227084180.23782.8954852001996347310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am Mittwoch, den 17.12.2008, 15:17 +0100 schrieb Arlo Griffiths: > I am interested in the concept of 7 (or 9) 'jewels' denoting certain > standard lists composed of people and insignia at the king's court, > as e.g. in Mahaavastu I.49 (ed. Senart): > > tasya imaani sapta ratnaani abhunsu | sayyathiida.m cakraratna.m > hastiratna.m a;svaratna.m > ma.niratna.m striiratna.m g.rhapatiratna.m parinaayakaratnam eva > saptama.m > > I have hitherto failed to find good examples of this meaning of > saptaratna in brahmanical texts, nor am I aware of any discussions of > this list (or similar lists) in secondary literature. See, e.g., Lin Li-Kouang: L'aide-m?moire de la vraie loi (Saddharma-Sm?tyupasth?na-S?tra). Paris: Adrien-Maisonneuve, 1949, pp. 253-257 (les sept joyaux du Cakravartin and les sept joyaux secondaires). For a short comparative treatment see Armelin, Indumati: Le roi d?tenteur de la roue solaire en r?volution (Cakravartin) selon le brahmanisme et selon le bouddhisme. Paris: Geuthner, 1975 On page 44, note 40 she says: "La tradition brahmanique met l'accent sur le parasol blanc (dhavala chatra) et sur les deux aigrettes (c?mara) mais non sur les sept joyaux que nous avons mentionn?es". Hope it helps Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn From Peter.Bisschop at ED.AC.UK Wed Dec 17 16:35:11 2008 From: Peter.Bisschop at ED.AC.UK (Peter Bisschop) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 08 16:35:11 +0000 Subject: saptaratna (navaratna) In-Reply-To: <4E77A0E2-5E88-43C8-B817-CE48279B8A1E@let.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227084186.23782.11587918216353750126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Among brahmanical texts these seven ratnas turn up in some Puraa.nas, in connection with the Cakravartin. Vi.s.nudharmottarapuraa.na 1.172.42ab--43ab: 1.172.42ab/ te.saa.m tu sapta ratnaani bhavantiiha mahiitale/ 1.172.42cd/ hastya"svaratharatnaani bhaaryaaratna.m tathaiva ca// 1.172.43ab/ tathaivaayudharatna.m ca ma.niratnanidhis tathaa/ Brahmaa.n.dapuraa.na 1.29.74: cakra.m ratho ma.nir bhaaryaa nidhir a"svo gajas tathaa / saptaitaani ca ratnaani sarve.saa.m cakravartinaam // BdP_1,29.74 // --- Dr Peter Bisschop Asian Studies University of Edinburgh 7/8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW Scotland, U.K. e-mail: Peter.Bisschop at ed.ac.uk phone: +(0)131 650 4174 http://www.asianstudies.ed.ac.uk/staff/bisschop.htm On 17 Dec 2008, at 14:17, Arlo Griffiths wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I am interested in the concept of 7 (or 9) 'jewels' denoting > certain standard lists composed of people and insignia at the > king's court, as e.g. in Mahaavastu I.49 (ed. Senart): > > tasya imaani sapta ratnaani abhunsu | sayyathiida.m cakraratna.m > hastiratna.m a;svaratna.m > ma.niratna.m striiratna.m g.rhapatiratna.m parinaayakaratnam eva > saptama.m > > I have hitherto failed to find good examples of this meaning of > saptaratna in brahmanical texts, nor am I aware of any discussions > of this list (or similar lists) in secondary literature. > > I would be very grateful for references. > > Arlo Griffiths > ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (Jakarta) > Instituut Kern, Universiteit Leiden > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From cbpicron at GMX.DE Wed Dec 17 15:45:35 2008 From: cbpicron at GMX.DE (Claudine Picron) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 08 16:45:35 +0100 Subject: saptaratna (navaratna) Message-ID: <161227084183.23782.11697157008446924908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See the recently published Ph.D. (Heidelberg Univ., 2007): Chin-An Hsu (Rev. Hui-Yen Shi), "Sieben-Juwelen" und Stifter Reliefs in Bodh-Gay?, Bihar, Taipei: Shen-Chon Lai, Research Center for East-West Philosophy and Hemeneutics (National Taipei University, San Shia Campus, 151 University Road, San Shia, Taipei), 2008. or: Dagya Rinpoche, Buddhist Symbols in Tibetan Culture, Wisdom Publ., 1995, pp. 65-83. Cl. Bautze-Picron. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arlo Griffiths" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 3:17 PM Subject: saptaratna (navaratna) Dear colleagues, I am interested in the concept of 7 (or 9) 'jewels' denoting certain standard lists composed of people and insignia at the king's court, as e.g. in Mahaavastu I.49 (ed. Senart): tasya imaani sapta ratnaani abhunsu | sayyathiida.m cakraratna.m hastiratna.m a;svaratna.m ma.niratna.m striiratna.m g.rhapatiratna.m parinaayakaratnam eva saptama.m I have hitherto failed to find good examples of this meaning of saptaratna in brahmanical texts, nor am I aware of any discussions of this list (or similar lists) in secondary literature. I would be very grateful for references. Arlo Griffiths ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (Jakarta) Instituut Kern, Universiteit Leiden From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Wed Dec 17 17:28:37 2008 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S. Cousins) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 08 17:28:37 +0000 Subject: saptaratna (navaratna) In-Reply-To: <4E77A0E2-5E88-43C8-B817-CE48279B8A1E@let.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227084194.23782.13241011654605179232.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For references to the 14 ratna and nine nidhi of the Jaina cakravartin, see: Norman, K.R. (1983), 'The nine treasures of a cakravartin', _Indologica Taurinensia_, XI, 183?93. L.S.Cousins, (Wolfson College, Oxford) From straube at STAFF.UNI-MARBURG.DE Wed Dec 17 16:55:07 2008 From: straube at STAFF.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Martin Straube) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 08 17:55:07 +0100 Subject: saptaratna (navaratna) In-Reply-To: <4E77A0E2-5E88-43C8-B817-CE48279B8A1E@let.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227084189.23782.12251644212947900573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See also: Hartmut Scharfe: Zur Einsetzung des K?nigs im vedischen Indien, in: Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik 13/14 (= Festschrift Wilhelm Rau), p. 185--193. Best whishes, Martin Straube Zitat von Arlo Griffiths : > Dear colleagues, > > I am interested in the concept of 7 (or 9) 'jewels' denoting certain > standard lists composed of people and insignia at the king's court, as > e.g. in Mahaavastu I.49 (ed. Senart): > > tasya imaani sapta ratnaani abhunsu | sayyathiida.m cakraratna.m > hastiratna.m a;svaratna.m > ma.niratna.m striiratna.m g.rhapatiratna.m parinaayakaratnam eva saptama.m > > I have hitherto failed to find good examples of this meaning of > saptaratna in brahmanical texts, nor am I aware of any discussions of > this list (or similar lists) in secondary literature. > > I would be very grateful for references. > > Arlo Griffiths > ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (Jakarta) > Instituut Kern, Universiteit Leiden --- Dr. des. Martin Straube Fachgebiet Indologie und Tibetologie Philipps-Universitaet Marburg Deutschhausstrasse 12 35032 Marburg (Germany) www.uni-marburg.de/indologie From tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Dec 18 02:24:31 2008 From: tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Tenzin Bob Thurman) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 08 21:24:31 -0500 Subject: questions on bodhisattva vow In-Reply-To: <4948F4150200003A0004B3DF@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084203.23782.14111855952688104731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Allen, These questions are raised and debated interminably ? supporting the doctrine that all teachings and theories about the relative reality are interpretable in nature. They say there are three ways of a bodhisattbva becoming a buddha, like a cowherd, like a ferryman, and like a king. The cowherd gets all the herd into the pasture then enters himself, the ferryman and passengers reach the shore at the same time, and the king firstr assums the royal position and power, and then lifts his kingdom into exaltation. The aspirational vow you mention expresses the sentiment of the former type, but the actual method is to fist become buddha and then help others become enlightened. Another way to think about it is that upon attaining buddhahood, one;s awafreness expands into all three times, an so the future moments of other beings' attainment of nirvana and buddhahood become present to the bodhisattva in buddha-transition and so she has no sense of abandoning them for her own nirvana. Bob Allen W Thrasher wrote: > The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have done so before him. > > 1. Does this mean never? > 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified from nirvana? > 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) > 4. Or do new sentient beings somehow get started, replacing the ones that have entered into nirvana? (I can't remember any S.Asian source that says new sentient beings come into existence, except (according to B. L. Atreya somewhere, the YogavAsiSTHa). > 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? > > > Allen > > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. > > > From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Dec 18 03:48:45 2008 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 08 22:48:45 -0500 Subject: questions on bodhisattva vow In-Reply-To: <4949B45F.7010809@columbia.edu> Message-ID: <161227084206.23782.10999984573641857188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Allen, I forwarded your questions to a student of mine who also is a student of Buddhism. Here's what he came up with: "Nirvana is not a place one enters into; Buddha repeatedly makes it clear that it is experienced in the "here and now" by anyone who overcomes his/her afflictions and has insight into the nature of reality. Nor is there such a thing as "forever"; again past, present and future are not valid concepts in Buddha's vision - they are misconceptions based on our misapprehension of an ego moving through space and time, something which Buddha specifically denied as valid. The "bodhisattva vow" is not indigenous to the "original Buddhism" (i.e. what Buddha actually taught) but was introduced about 500 years later in the "Great Vehicle" (Mahayana) which gradually evolved through the different schools which went in different directions after Buddha died. One of the criticisms that Mahayana levelled against the Theravadin (pejoratively called the Lesser Way or Hinayana by the Mahayanists; Theravadin is the way of the elders, i.e. those who followed the Pali canon and did not accept the Mahayana sutras as legitimate, since they were composed so late and were not traceable to the Buddha) is that they lacked compassion, a patently absurd charge. However, the charge stuck and because Mahayana surpassed Hinayana in followers, the politics of the majority ruled and Mahayanists considered themselves and were considered more "compassionate" than Hinayanists or Theravadins. They also evolved the concept of the Bodhisattva (who is simply someone on the road to enlightenment) who does not enter Nirvana until everyone enters before him/her to highlight his/her ultimate sacrifice and compassion (this comes from the school of Amitabha Buddha, the Buddha of unmeasured splendour). However, if there is no "ego" or "I" and no places to enter, this can only be viewed as a metaphor or a "skilful means" - a way of describing reality which may be understandable to a layman to incite faith and commitment, but not a valid representation of reality. Nobody is permanently disqualified from Nirvana - everyone is capable of waking up to their true nature. Although Buddhism does not discuss it, since sentient beings are a misconception, - dividing a whole up into parts which really don't exist, - then theoretically the whole can be divided up into an infinite number of parts, depending on one's (delusory) viewpoint." This seems to be a very Buddhist answer. Stella On 17-Dec-08, at 9:24 PM, Tenzin Bob Thurman wrote: > Hi Allen, > > These questions are raised and debated interminably ? supporting > the doctrine that all teachings and theories about the relative > reality are interpretable in nature. They say there are three ways > of a bodhisattbva becoming a buddha, like a cowherd, like a > ferryman, and like a king. The cowherd gets all the herd into the > pasture then enters himself, the ferryman and passengers reach the > shore at the same time, and the king firstr assums the royal > position and power, and then lifts his kingdom into exaltation. The > aspirational vow you mention expresses the sentiment of the former > type, but the actual method is to fist become buddha and then help > others become enlightened. > > Another way to think about it is that upon attaining buddhahood, > one;s awafreness expands into all three times, an so the future > moments of other beings' attainment of nirvana and buddhahood > become present to the bodhisattva in buddha-transition and so she > has no sense of abandoning them for her own nirvana. > > Bob > > Allen W Thrasher wrote: >> The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all >> other sentient beings have done so before him. >> >> 1. Does this mean never? >> 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified >> from nirvana? >> 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so >> though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? >> (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's >> said.) >> 4. Or do new sentient beings somehow get started, replacing the >> ones that have entered into nirvana? (I can't remember any >> S.Asian source that says new sentient beings come into existence, >> except (according to B. L. Atreya somewhere, the YogavAsiSTHa). >> 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? >> >> >> Allen >> >> >> >> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >> Senior Reference Librarian >> Team Coordinator >> South Asia Team, Asian Division >> Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 >> 101 Independence Ave., S.E. >> Washington, DC 20540-4810 >> tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov >> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the >> Library of Congress. >> >> >> > From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Dec 18 08:29:55 2008 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 02:29:55 -0600 Subject: questions on bodhisattva vow Message-ID: <161227084212.23782.13773407122353737586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The discussion needs to distinguish carefully between the generalized aspiration to become a buddha and the formal vow of a bodhisattva, as elaborated in the rather different tranditions of the Bodhisattvabhuumizaastra (where the vow is directly modelled on the bhik.su ordination) and of the Bodhicaryaavataara and related works, where the vow does not presuppose the praatimok.sa. In the latter tradition, the vow is taken aabodhima.n.da- , "up to the point of enlightenment," with a deliberate double-entendre in the use of "bodhima.n.da" as the temporal culmination of one's path and the site of the vajraasana. Nothing is stated as to whether this is reached before, during or after the enlightenment of others. As Tenzin Thurman rightly notes, tradition regards there as being three types of aspiration in this regard -- king-like (leading others), like a ferryman (with others) and shepherd-like (following others) -- but this is not formally inscribed in the vow. As to whether sentient beings newly arise or not, this interesting question was indeed debated, without decisive conclusion so far as I am aware. My work on the second Karma pa hierarch Karma Pakshi (1204/6-83) alludes to such debates. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Dec 18 08:40:08 2008 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 03:40:08 -0500 Subject: questions on bodhisattva vow Message-ID: <161227084214.23782.4614718637898186253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen, Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your questions (you've already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the-literature type answer? These are not necessarily the same. First, there have been several discussions over the last couple of decades between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h-buddhism, very little in actual print) over the soundness of the assertion that: The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have done so before him. More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance of that vow. While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on Buddhism, it is far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion on what those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of which this is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is not in evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it may have been a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere speculation and one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking gun to settle the matter). Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of delaying one's own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already attained it (what Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that bodhisattvas, unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the sake of others, is present in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti Sutra (though how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly discussed in Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, explains that Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and so, out of fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has overcome such fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to assist other sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last sentient being has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha Maitreya's job, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven and will be reborn as a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even suggests that the amount of time of the delay may vary with the degree of the bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely avoids the dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments (this text is also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two subsequent bhumis in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some will also posit kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help others. The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly in any detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has entered parinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent working for the benefit of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is he still around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus Sutra, one of the earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of Buddha, in which "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with "Sakyamuni, but is a cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. That idea influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect ways (for instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). So, if post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with sentient beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, based on a misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once-returner, a nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off being born, since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes (once born in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non-returner, etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the Lotus track, sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to the Buddhist dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while a Buddha that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses to say whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). To address your questions more directly: 1. Does this mean never? Why be such a pessimist? 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified from nirvana? There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my reading of those debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika would be some continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by opponents of the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of holding that position. An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that habit may continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; there are lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient beings that recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings are added and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like Hindus, many Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire pluriverse comes into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of liberation, so this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in certain moods, Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? See above. Dan Lusthaus From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Thu Dec 18 07:14:06 2008 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 08:14:06 +0100 Subject: questions on bodhisattva vow In-Reply-To: <4948F4150200003A0004B3DF@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084209.23782.16004825834849724286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Allen, These are interesting questions, but I do not know from what point of view they are posed. They look like questions critical non-believers might pose, or they are questions that medieval scholastics might have posed as an exercise in theological rhetorics. Could you elucidate if these are questions you have actually come across somewhere? Kind regards Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Allen W Thrasher Verzonden: woensdag 17 december 2008 18:44 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: questions on bodhisattva vow The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have done so before him. 1. Does this mean never? 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified from nirvana? 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) 4. Or do new sentient beings somehow get started, replacing the ones that have entered into nirvana? (I can't remember any S.Asian source that says new sentient beings come into existence, except (according to B. L. Atreya somewhere, the YogavAsiSTHa). 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Dec 18 13:45:05 2008 From: fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frances Pritchett) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 08:45:05 -0500 Subject: shirt studs in India In-Reply-To: <494900DE0200003A0004B3E7@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084224.23782.7892338140164592169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Allen, I've seen these chained-together studs in groups of three or four, for specially made kurtas that have at the neck opening several sets of two buttonholes, rather than buttons and buttonholes. In the ones I've seen, the chains are decorative, and sometimes heavy and ornamented; they go outside the kurta, not inside, so that the whole thing is, if made in silver or gold, an elegant ornament. (There are cheaper ones in plainer metals too.) But I don't know if these are what you have in mind. all the best for the holidays, Fran Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Struggling with my black tie for the Romila Thapar award ceremony last week, the following question occurred to me. > > For special events Indian men will frequently wear silver, gold, or jeweled shirt studs, with a chain inside the shirt keeping them together and safe (very good idea). In the Indian antique shops I have seen older ones, though I have no way of guessing their dates. I have never seen the chained ones in Western antique shops. > > Is there any evidence whether the use of studs existed before the British era? Were they in use in Islamicate societies? > > I don't recall seeing them in miniatures. Usually, of course, the shirts are double-breasted and fastened at the shoulder. > > > Allen > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. > > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Thu Dec 18 08:56:42 2008 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 09:56:42 +0100 Subject: questions on bodhisattva vow In-Reply-To: <005701c960ec$3c62dc30$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <161227084216.23782.12913452306213323011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's questions could be posed from the point of view of a recent convert to Buddhism who finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more sociological approach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily explain these matters. It is perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in reality is not there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. The latter may be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This means that the ansers to these questions would be manifold. I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the finer points of Buddhist doctrine. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow Allen, Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your questions (you've already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the-literature type answer? These are not necessarily the same. First, there have been several discussions over the last couple of decades between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h-buddhism, very little in actual print) over the soundness of the assertion that: The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have done so before him. More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance of that vow. While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on Buddhism, it is far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion on what those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of which this is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is not in evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it may have been a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere speculation and one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking gun to settle the matter). Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of delaying one's own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already attained it (what Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that bodhisattvas, unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the sake of others, is present in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti Sutra (though how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly discussed in Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, explains that Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and so, out of fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has overcome such fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to assist other sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last sentient being has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha Maitreya's job, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven and will be reborn as a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even suggests that the amount of time of the delay may vary with the degree of the bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely avoids the dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments (this text is also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two subsequent bhumis in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some will also posit kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help others. The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly in any detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has entered parinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent working for the benefit of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is he still around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus Sutra, one of the earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of Buddha, in which "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with "Sakyamuni, but is a cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. That idea influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect ways (for instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). So, if post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with sentient beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, based on a misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once-returner, a nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off being born, since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes (once born in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non-returner, etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the Lotus track, sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to the Buddhist dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while a Buddha that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses to say whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). To address your questions more directly: 1. Does this mean never? Why be such a pessimist? 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified from nirvana? There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my reading of those debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika would be some continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by opponents of the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of holding that position. An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that habit may continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; there are lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient beings that recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings are added and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like Hindus, many Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire pluriverse comes into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of liberation, so this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in certain moods, Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? See above. Dan Lusthaus From dorji.wangchuk at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Thu Dec 18 09:11:06 2008 From: dorji.wangchuk at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (dorji.wangchuk at UNI-HAMBURG.DE) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 10:11:06 +0100 Subject: questions on bodhisattva vow Message-ID: <161227084218.23782.6338145533790885946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, Those of you who are interested in the concept of the king-like, boatman-like, and herdsman-like bodhisattva or bodhicittotpaada, may consult my doctoral dissertation published under the title: *The Resolve to Become a Buddha: A Study of the Bodhicitta Concept in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism. Studia Philologica Buddhica, Monograph Series 23. Tokyo: The International Institute for Buddhist Studies, 2007.* See particularly, pp. 267-271, where I discuss Tibetan sources including that of Klong-chen-pa and Tsong-kha-pa and also attempt to trace Indian sources of the concept. Best wishes, Dorji Wangchuk _____________________________ Dr. Dorji Wangchuk Wissenschaftlicher Angestellter (Tibetology & Indo-Tibetan Buddhism) Department of Indian and Tibetan Studies, Asia-Africa Institute, University of Hamburg, Edmund-Siemers-Allee 1 (Hauptgeb?ude) 20146 Hamburg, Germany Tel: +49-40-42838-6918 (office) +49-40-4208925 (home) Fax: +49-40-42838-6944 From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Thu Dec 18 12:48:35 2008 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 13:48:35 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Obituary: Isidore Dyen Message-ID: <161227084222.23782.17222876809638220180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, the obituary reproduced below appeared today on the LINGUIST Network. Strangely, Isidore Dyen's interest in Sanskrit is not explicitely mentionned. As a complement to the obituary, one should point to: The Sanskrit Indeclinables of the Hindu Grammarians and Lexicographers (by Isidore Dyen), which appeared in Language [Language, Vol. 15, No. 3, Language Dissertation No. 31: The Sanskrit Indeclinables of the Hindu Grammarians and Lexicographers (Jul. - Sep., 1939), pp. 4-74] Stable URL: See also the review which appeared in the /Journal of the American Oriental Society/, Vol. 59, No. 4 (Dec., 1939), pp. 528-530 Stable URL: I suppose not everybody is remembered in the history of a discipline but I would be interested to read more comments on Isidore Dyen's work -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) -------- Message original -------- Sujet : 19.3876, All: Obituary: Isidore Dyen Date : Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:02:54 -0500 De : LINGUIST Network LINGUIST List: Vol-19-3876. Wed Dec 17 2008. ISSN: 1068 - 4875. Homepage: http://linguistlist.org/ -------------------------Message 1 ---------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:01:04 From: Stephen Anderson [sra at yale.edu] Subject: Obituary: Isidore Dyen E-mail this message to a friend: http://linguistlist.org/issues/emailmessage/verification.cfm?iss=19-3876.html&submissionid=199826&topicid=1&msgnumber=1 Isidore Dyen, Professor Emeritus of Linguistics at Yale, died on Sunday, 14 December at the age of 95. Professor Dyen joined the Yale faculty in 1942 as Instructor in Malay, and was subsequently Assistant, Associate, and full Professor in the University until his retirement in 1984. He was a major figure in the comparative and historical linguistics of the Austronesian languages, and will be remembered for his many important contributions to this and allied fields. A fuller memorial notice will follow at a later date. Stephen R. Anderson Dorothy R. Diebold Professor of Linguistics (Chair); Professor of Psychology and Cognitive Science Yale University Linguistic Field(s): Not Applicable From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Dec 18 14:10:00 2008 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 14:10:00 +0000 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <788194.84048.qm@web8608.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084229.23782.16498857986353023276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dear Victor, > Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the manuscripts i have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has given a thought to if the latter is not incorrect? DB On bodhi-sattva /?satva cp. Oskar von Hinueber, Ein Meilenstein in der Erforschung des zentralasiatischen Buddhismus. Zu einem neuen Katalog khotan-sakischer Handschriften (Skj?rv?, Prods Oktor: Khotanese Manuscripts from Chinese Turke stan in the British Library: a complete catalogue with texts and translations, London 2002), ZDMG 157. 2007, 385-394 ("bodhisattva"-elucidation on pp.387-389) WS ---------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Thu Dec 18 13:57:59 2008 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 14:57:59 +0100 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <788194.84048.qm@web8608.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084226.23782.11364202737318875032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Bhattacharya, You are perfectly right. I remember a class with Prof. Jonathan Silk in which he also indicated that bodhisatva was spelled with a single 't'in the manuscripts. This point is worth looking into. However, I do not recall having mentioned the word itself in my posting (which is the contribution of a layman). Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dipak Bhattacharya Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 12:26 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva Dear Victor, Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the manuscripts i have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has?given a thought to if the?latter is not incorrect???DB --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 2:26 PM Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's questions could be posed from the point of view of a recent convert to Buddhism who finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more sociological approach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily explain these matters. It is perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in reality is not there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. The latter may be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This means that the ansers to these questions would be manifold. I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the finer points of Buddhist doctrine. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow Allen, Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your questions (you've already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the-literature type answer? These are not necessarily the same. First, there have been several discussions over the last couple of decades between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h-buddhism, very little in actual print) over the soundness of the assertion that: The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have done so before him. More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance of that vow. While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on Buddhism, it is far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion on what those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of which this is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is not in evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it may have been a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere speculation and one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking gun to settle the matter). Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of delaying one's own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already attained it (what Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that bodhisattvas, unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the sake of others, is present in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti Sutra (though how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly discussed in Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, explains that Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and so, out of fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has overcome such fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to assist other sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last sentient being has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha Maitreya's job, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven and will be reborn as a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even suggests that the amount of time of the delay may vary with the degree of the bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely avoids the dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments (this text is also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two subsequent bhumis in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some will also posit kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help others. The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly in any detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has entered parinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent working for the benefit of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is he still around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus Sutra, one of the earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of Buddha, in which "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with "Sakyamuni, but is a cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. That idea influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect ways (for instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). So, if post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with sentient beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, based on a misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once-returner, a nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off being born, since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes (once born in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non-returner, etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the Lotus track, sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to the Buddhist dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while a Buddha that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses to say whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). To address your questions more directly: 1. Does this mean never? Why be such a pessimist? 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified from nirvana? There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my reading of those debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika would be some continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by opponents of the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of holding that position. An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that habit may continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; there are lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient beings that recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings are added and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like Hindus, many Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire pluriverse comes into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of liberation, so this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in certain moods, Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? See above. Dan Lusthaus Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From h.t.bakker at RUG.NL Thu Dec 18 14:20:39 2008 From: h.t.bakker at RUG.NL (hans bakker) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 15:20:39 +0100 Subject: Proceedings BM Symposium: Mansar Message-ID: <161227084231.23782.2337341473041402720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mitraani, It is my pleasure to announce that my ebook containing the proceedings of the British Museum Symposium on Mansar (2008) has been published. Finally a book that I can give to you all for free. A (cheap) Christmas present. You may download the book from the following site: http://mansar.eldoc.ub.rug.nl Under proceedings you will find a thumbnail of the Titlepage, Contents, and a thumbnail of the book: Mansar Downloading Mansar.pdf may take 2 to 30 minutes depending on your connection, due to its size (188 MB). In order to download the pdf file smoothly, click once on the thumbnail with the right mouse button to open the menu. Click on "Save Target As..." Once you have downloaded Mansar.pdf on your computer, open it with Adobe Reader. In the left column you will find all contributions. Under /Cover sheet/ on the top of the left column you find the title page and, if you scroll on to the second page, the ISBN number. The Introduction is again a large file and it takes acrobat some time to open it, so please be not impatient. Preface-contents, Introduction, Bakker and Siudmak can best be read on the screen in `full screen mode.' Please inform me if you encounter difficulties. This is my first ebook and I am just beginning to learn the intricacies thereof. I finish by wishing you all a merry Christmas and a very good 2009. Hans Bakker -- Prof Dr Hans T. Bakker Institute of Indian Studies University of Groningen Oude Boteringestraat 23 9712 GC Groningen the Netherlands tel: +31.(0)50.363.5819 fax: +31.(0)50.363.7263 www.rug.nl/india From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Dec 18 15:30:00 2008 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 15:30:00 +0000 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva Message-ID: <161227084235.23782.7605497896379642400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The passage I have referred to contains a thorough excursus on the linguistic and notional development of the term "bodhi-satva" (roughly: *sakta > ?satta > ?satva). WS "Jonathan Silk" schrieb: > I am afraid that at the moment I do not have to hand the review cited by Prof Slaje, but anyway, so-called failure to geminate on the one hand, and Paninian but 'irregular' gemination on the other (e.g., karmma etc) are regular features of many Buddhist Sanskrit (or if one insists, 'hybrid' Sanskrit) manuscripts, not limited to those of Nepal. (Sometimes this is script-dependent; in so-called Khotanese-style MSS we find even prraj? etc., although the language is Sanskrit) I would not consider it a linguistic feature at all, merely ('merely'?) a habit of scribes. I am not even sure that I would be willing to go so far as to compare it to the habit (which I personally find charming) of scholars like Edgerton and Bloomfield to write elefant and the like. Jonathan Silk On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:10 PM, Walter Slaje wrote: > > Dear Victor, > > Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the manuscripts i > have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has given a thought to > if the latter is not incorrect? DB > > > On bodhi-sattva /?satva cp. > > Oskar von Hinueber, Ein Meilenstein in der Erforschung des > zentralasiatischen Buddhismus. > Zu einem neuen Katalog khotan-sakischer Handschriften > (Skj?rv?, Prods Oktor: Khotanese Manuscripts from Chinese > Turke stan in the British Library: a complete catalogue with texts > and translations, London 2002), ZDMG 157. 2007, 385-394 > ("bodhisattva"-elucidation on pp.387-389) > WS -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands -- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Dec 18 21:02:39 2008 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 16:02:39 -0500 Subject: shirt studs in India Message-ID: <161227084247.23782.15505878473677466299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Fran, I think I've seen the chains both inside and outside. Also, sometimes instead of a stud showing on the shirtfront, there is a cluster of small chains on each buttonhole in addition to the larger chain holding them together. There are as you say holes on both the inner and outer placket of the shirt, just as on a Western man's formal shirt ("black tie" or "white tie"). According to the Wiki article on " shirt studs" (a stud) maintains that studs used to be worn with day wear as well as with formal evening wear. (There would also have been the invisible studs holding the detachable collar.) So presumably in the 19th c. Indians adopting English dress would have used them, and perhaps those adapting Indian and English dress to new styles would have preserved them and then made them more elaborate. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >>> Frances Pritchett 12/18/2008 8:45:05 AM >>> Dear Allen, I've seen these chained-together studs in groups of three or four, for specially made kurtas that have at the neck opening several sets of two buttonholes, rather than buttons and buttonholes. In the ones I've seen, the chains are decorative, and sometimes heavy and ornamented; they go outside the kurta, not inside, so that the whole thing is, if made in silver or gold, an elegant ornament. (There are cheaper ones in plainer metals too.) But I don't know if these are what you have in mind. all the best for the holidays, Fran Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Struggling with my black tie for the Romila Thapar award ceremony last week, the following question occurred to me. > > For special events Indian men will frequently wear silver, gold, or jeweled shirt studs, with a chain inside the shirt keeping them together and safe (very good idea). In the Indian antique shops I have seen older ones, though I have no way of guessing their dates. I have never seen the chained ones in Western antique shops. > > Is there any evidence whether the use of studs existed before the British era? Were they in use in Islamicate societies? > > I don't recall seeing them in miniatures. Usually, of course, the shirts are double-breasted and fastened at the shoulder. > > > Allen > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. > > From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Dec 18 21:04:00 2008 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 16:04:00 -0500 Subject: questions on bodhisattva vow In-Reply-To: <005701c960ec$3c62dc30$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <161227084250.23782.4517069470058979856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dan, I was actually asking for both. Allen "Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your questions (you've already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the-literature type answer? These are not necessarily the same." >>> Dan Lusthaus 12/18/2008 3:40:08 AM >>> Allen, Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your questions (you've already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the-literature type answer? These are not necessarily the same. First, there have been several discussions over the last couple of decades between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h-buddhism, very little in actual print) over the soundness of the assertion that: The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have done so before him. More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance of that vow. While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on Buddhism, it is far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion on what those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of which this is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is not in evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it may have been a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere speculation and one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking gun to settle the matter). Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of delaying one's own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already attained it (what Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that bodhisattvas, unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the sake of others, is present in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti Sutra (though how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly discussed in Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, explains that Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and so, out of fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has overcome such fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to assist other sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last sentient being has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha Maitreya's job, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven and will be reborn as a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even suggests that the amount of time of the delay may vary with the degree of the bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely avoids the dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments (this text is also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two subsequent bhumis in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some will also posit kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help others. The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly in any detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has entered parinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent working for the benefit of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is he still around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus Sutra, one of the earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of Buddha, in which "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with "Sakyamuni, but is a cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. That idea influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect ways (for instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). So, if post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with sentient beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, based on a misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once-returner, a nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off being born, since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes (once born in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non-returner, etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the Lotus track, sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to the Buddhist dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while a Buddha that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses to say whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). To address your questions more directly: 1. Does this mean never? Why be such a pessimist? 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified from nirvana? There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my reading of those debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika would be some continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by opponents of the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of holding that position. An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that habit may continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; there are lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient beings that recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings are added and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like Hindus, many Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire pluriverse comes into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of liberation, so this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in certain moods, Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? See above. Dan Lusthaus From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu Dec 18 11:25:44 2008 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 16:55:44 +0530 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <9268C5C0BBA942F793FC51664D6A04ED@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227084220.23782.5483151134323490737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Victor, Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the manuscripts i have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has?given a thought to if the?latter is not incorrect???DB --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 2:26 PM Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's questions could be posed from the point of view of a recent convert to Buddhism who finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more sociological approach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily explain these matters. It is perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in reality is not there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. The latter may be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This means that the ansers to these questions would be manifold. I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the finer points of Buddhist doctrine. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow Allen, Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your questions (you've already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the-literature type answer? These are not necessarily the same. First, there have been several discussions over the last couple of decades between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h-buddhism, very little in actual print) over the soundness of the assertion that: The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have done so before him. More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance of that vow. While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on Buddhism, it is far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion on what those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of which this is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is not in evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it may have been a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere speculation and one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking gun to settle the matter). Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of delaying one's own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already attained it (what Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that bodhisattvas, unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the sake of others, is present in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti Sutra (though how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly discussed in Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, explains that Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and so, out of fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has overcome such fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to assist other sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last sentient being has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha Maitreya's job, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven and will be reborn as a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even suggests that the amount of time of the delay may vary with the degree of the bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely avoids the dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments (this text is also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two subsequent bhumis in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some will also posit kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help others. The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly in any detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has entered parinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent working for the benefit of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is he still around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus Sutra, one of the earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of Buddha, in which "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with "Sakyamuni, but is a cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. That idea influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect ways (for instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). So, if post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with sentient beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, based on a misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once-returner, a nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off being born, since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes (once born in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non-returner, etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the Lotus track, sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to the Buddhist dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while a Buddha that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses to say whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). To address your questions more directly: 1. Does this mean never? Why be such a pessimist? 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified from nirvana? There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my reading of those debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika would be some continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by opponents of the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of holding that position. An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that habit may continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; there are lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient beings that recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings are added and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like Hindus, many Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire pluriverse comes into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of liberation, so this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in certain moods, Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? See above. Dan Lusthaus Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Dec 18 22:04:09 2008 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 17:04:09 -0500 Subject: questions on bodhisattva vow Message-ID: <161227084254.23782.17393955867336704904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Victor, They are just questions that came to me, and not from any recent reading on bodhisattvas. All the best, Allen "Dear Allen, These are interesting questions, but I do not know from what point of view they are posed. They look like questions critical non-believers might pose, or they are questions that medieval scholastics might have posed as an exercise in theological rhetorics. Could you elucidate if these are questions you have actually come across somewhere? Kind regards Victor van Bijlert" From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Dec 18 21:29:57 2008 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 21:29:57 +0000 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <1LDKpp-0i5bBg0@fwd09.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227084252.23782.170076474444005650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > the linguistic and notional development of the term > "bodhi-satva" (roughly: *sakta > ?satta > ?satva). If MIA bodhisatta (= OIA *bodhisakta) is in fact the origin of Buddhist Sanskrit bodhisat(t)va, then it is conceivable that the association with sattva was made at an intermediate linguistic stage corresponding to G?ndh?r?: (1) The regular G correspondent of both OIA ttv and OIA tv is tv [tv] (probably in pronunciation as well as in orthography). (2) Words transposed from other forms of MIA in general show either preserved t [tt] or adjusted tv [tv], most notably in the gerund suffix, but where clarity was important (such as in the ablative ending of the abstract noun, ?tva < ?tv?t), tv is used consistently. By the same token, other?MIA *?satta would be G?ndh?r?ized as ?satva _if_ already supported by the notion that the word corresponded to OIA ?sattva rather than ?sakta. The attested G form is bosisatva. (3) One might consider whether the prevalence Buddhist Sanskrit satva with one t could be connected to G satva with one t. Best wishes for the holidays, Stefan Baums -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu Dec 18 16:56:00 2008 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 22:26:00 +0530 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084241.23782.11373941560985724131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 18 12 08 The origin of -satva in bodhisatva may be satvan 'valiant' thematised like dharman>dharma. The Tibetan equivalents seem to support this. A?discussion in this line occurs in 'The preliminaries of the Vajraavalii' S.K.Pathak Felicitation volume S.P.Bhandar Kolkata, 2008. Unfortunately I have not yet got the book. DB --- On Thu, 18/12/08, Jonathan Silk wrote: From: Jonathan Silk Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 9:22 PM Ah. This may well be (without reading it of course I say nothing), but irrespective of the history, *within Sanskrit* ?satva was, I think it is fair to say, always understood as ?sattva; the question then is simply one of orthography. But this is far from the only case in which degemination occurs, another reason to uncouple the question of etymology/history from that of orthography. JAS On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: > The passage I have referred to contains a thorough excursus on the > linguistic and notional development of the term "bodhi-satva" (roughly: > *sakta > ?satta > ?satva). > > WS > > "Jonathan Silk" schrieb: > > I am afraid that at the moment I do not have to hand the review cited by > Prof Slaje, but anyway, so-called failure to geminate on the one hand, and > Paninian but 'irregular' gemination on the other (e.g., karmma etc) are > regular features of many Buddhist Sanskrit (or if one insists, 'hybrid' > Sanskrit) manuscripts, not limited to those of Nepal. (Sometimes this is > script-dependent; in so-called Khotanese-style MSS we find even prraj? > etc., although the language is Sanskrit) I would not consider it a > linguistic feature at all, merely ('merely'?) a habit of scribes. I am not > even sure that I would be willing to go so far as to compare it to the > habit > (which I personally find charming) of scholars like Edgerton and Bloomfield > to write elefant and the like. > > Jonathan Silk > > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:10 PM, Walter Slaje > wrote: > > > > Dear Victor, > > > Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the manuscripts i > > have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has given a thought > to > > if the latter is not incorrect? DB > > > > > > On bodhi-sattva /?satva cp. > > > > Oskar von Hinueber, Ein Meilenstein in der Erforschung des > > zentralasiatischen Buddhismus. > > Zu einem neuen Katalog khotan-sakischer Handschriften > > (Skj?rv?, Prods Oktor: Khotanese Manuscripts from Chinese > > Turke stan in the British Library: a complete catalogue with texts > > and translations, London 2002), ZDMG 157. 2007, 385-394 > > ("bodhisattva"-elucidation on pp.387-389) > > WS > > -- > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Postbus 9515 > 2300 RA Leiden > Netherlands > > -- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu Dec 18 17:03:17 2008 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 22:33:17 +0530 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <3D99137E217347948B119822FCBDA470@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227084244.23782.11748596365168836646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 18 12 08 Dear Dr. Bijlert, You are right. It was unfair on my part to mention that you have spelt bodhisattva. You have not. Obviously I failed to apply my mind in haste. Since that was mailed to the List this unconditional apology too is being sent to the List DB --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 7:27 PM Dear Prof. Bhattacharya, You are perfectly right. I remember a class with Prof. Jonathan Silk in which he also indicated that bodhisatva was spelled with a single 't'in the manuscripts. This point is worth looking into. However, I do not recall having mentioned the word itself in my posting (which is the contribution of a layman). Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dipak Bhattacharya Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 12:26 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva Dear Victor, Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the manuscripts i have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has?given a thought to if the?latter is not incorrect???DB --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 2:26 PM Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's questions could be posed from the point of view of a recent convert to Buddhism who finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more sociological approach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily explain these matters. It is perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in reality is not there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. The latter may be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This means that the ansers to these questions would be manifold. I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the finer points of Buddhist doctrine. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow Allen, Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your questions (you've already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the-literature type answer? These are not necessarily the same. First, there have been several discussions over the last couple of decades between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h-buddhism, very little in actual print) over the soundness of the assertion that: The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have done so before him. More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance of that vow. While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on Buddhism, it is far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion on what those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of which this is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is not in evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it may have been a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere speculation and one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking gun to settle the matter). Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of delaying one's own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already attained it (what Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that bodhisattvas, unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the sake of others, is present in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti Sutra (though how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly discussed in Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, explains that Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and so, out of fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has overcome such fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to assist other sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last sentient being has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha Maitreya's job, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven and will be reborn as a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even suggests that the amount of time of the delay may vary with the degree of the bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely avoids the dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments (this text is also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two subsequent bhumis in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some will also posit kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help others. The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly in any detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has entered parinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent working for the benefit of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is he still around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus Sutra, one of the earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of Buddha, in which "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with "Sakyamuni, but is a cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. That idea influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect ways (for instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). So, if post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with sentient beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, based on a misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once-returner, a nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off being born, since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes (once born in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non-returner, etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the Lotus track, sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to the Buddhist dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while a Buddha that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses to say whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). To address your questions more directly: 1. Does this mean never? Why be such a pessimist? 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified from nirvana? There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my reading of those debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika would be some continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by opponents of the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of holding that position. An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that habit may continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; there are lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient beings that recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings are added and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like Hindus, many Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire pluriverse comes into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of liberation, so this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in certain moods, Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? See above. Dan Lusthaus Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Thu Dec 18 22:17:43 2008 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 23:17:43 +0100 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <356227.9265.qm@web8604.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084257.23782.17653672498075914160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I enjoy in any case the benefit of the learned comments on this list. That to me is very valuable. It is nice to remain in constant touch in this way. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dipak Bhattacharya Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 18:03 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva 18 12 08 Dear Dr. Bijlert, You are right. It was unfair on my part to mention that you have spelt bodhisattva. You have not. Obviously I failed to apply my mind in haste. Since that was mailed to the List this unconditional apology too is being sent to the List DB --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 7:27 PM Dear Prof. Bhattacharya, You are perfectly right. I remember a class with Prof. Jonathan Silk in which he also indicated that bodhisatva was spelled with a single 't'in the manuscripts. This point is worth looking into. However, I do not recall having mentioned the word itself in my posting (which is the contribution of a layman). Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dipak Bhattacharya Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 12:26 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva Dear Victor, Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the manuscripts i have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has?given a thought to if the?latter is not incorrect???DB --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 2:26 PM Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's questions could be posed from the point of view of a recent convert to Buddhism who finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more sociological approach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily explain these matters. It is perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in reality is not there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. The latter may be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This means that the ansers to these questions would be manifold. I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the finer points of Buddhist doctrine. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow Allen, Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your questions (you've already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the-literature type answer? These are not necessarily the same. First, there have been several discussions over the last couple of decades between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h-buddhism, very little in actual print) over the soundness of the assertion that: The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have done so before him. More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance of that vow. While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on Buddhism, it is far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion on what those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of which this is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is not in evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it may have been a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere speculation and one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking gun to settle the matter). Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of delaying one's own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already attained it (what Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that bodhisattvas, unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the sake of others, is present in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti Sutra (though how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly discussed in Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, explains that Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and so, out of fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has overcome such fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to assist other sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last sentient being has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha Maitreya's job, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven and will be reborn as a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even suggests that the amount of time of the delay may vary with the degree of the bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely avoids the dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments (this text is also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two subsequent bhumis in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some will also posit kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help others. The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly in any detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has entered parinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent working for the benefit of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is he still around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus Sutra, one of the earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of Buddha, in which "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with "Sakyamuni, but is a cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. That idea influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect ways (for instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). So, if post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with sentient beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, based on a misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once-returner, a nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off being born, since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes (once born in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non-returner, etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the Lotus track, sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to the Buddhist dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while a Buddha that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses to say whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). To address your questions more directly: 1. Does this mean never? Why be such a pessimist? 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified from nirvana? There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my reading of those debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika would be some continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by opponents of the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of holding that position. An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that habit may continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; there are lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient beings that recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings are added and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like Hindus, many Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire pluriverse comes into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of liberation, so this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in certain moods, Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? See above. Dan Lusthaus Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Thu Dec 18 22:24:00 2008 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 23:24:00 +0100 Subject: questions on bodhisattva vow In-Reply-To: <20081218T170409Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084259.23782.18445912448866487366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Allen, Such questions might actually spell the end of Buddhism as we know it (upto now anyway). Warm greetings Victor -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Allen W Thrasher Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 23:04 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: questions on bodhisattva vow Dear Victor, They are just questions that came to me, and not from any recent reading on bodhisattvas. All the best, Allen "Dear Allen, These are interesting questions, but I do not know from what point of view they are posed. They look like questions critical non-believers might pose, or they are questions that medieval scholastics might have posed as an exercise in theological rhetorics. Could you elucidate if these are questions you have actually come across somewhere? Kind regards Victor van Bijlert" From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 18 14:41:22 2008 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 08 23:41:22 +0900 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <1LDJb4-1PJ1k00@fwd09.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227084233.23782.3894362080079455758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am afraid that at the moment I do not have to hand the review cited by Prof Slaje, but anyway, so-called failure to geminate on the one hand, and Paninian but 'irregular' gemination on the other (e.g., karmma etc) are regular features of many Buddhist Sanskrit (or if one insists, 'hybrid' Sanskrit) manuscripts, not limited to those of Nepal. (Sometimes this is script-dependent; in so-called Khotanese-style MSS we find even prraj?? etc., although the language is Sanskrit) I would not consider it a linguistic feature at all, merely ('merely'?) a habit of scribes. I am not even sure that I would be willing to go so far as to compare it to the habit (which I personally find charming) of scholars like Edgerton and Bloomfield to write elefant and the like. Jonathan Silk On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:10 PM, Walter Slaje wrote: > > Dear Victor, > > Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the manuscripts i > have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has given a thought to > if the latter is not incorrect? DB > > > On bodhi-sattva /?satva cp. > > Oskar von Hinueber, Ein Meilenstein in der Erforschung des > zentralasiatischen Buddhismus. > Zu einem neuen Katalog khotan-sakischer Handschriften > (Skj?rv?, Prods Oktor: Khotanese Manuscripts from Chinese > Turke stan in the British Library: a complete catalogue with texts > and translations, London 2002), ZDMG 157. 2007, 385-394 > ("bodhisattva"-elucidation on pp.387-389) > WS > > ---------------------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 18 15:52:58 2008 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 08 00:52:58 +0900 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <1LDKpp-0i5bBg0@fwd09.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227084238.23782.7988042980702428827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ah. This may well be (without reading it of course I say nothing), but irrespective of the history, *within Sanskrit* ?satva was, I think it is fair to say, always understood as ?sattva; the question then is simply one of orthography. But this is far from the only case in which degemination occurs, another reason to uncouple the question of etymology/history from that of orthography. JAS On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: > The passage I have referred to contains a thorough excursus on the > linguistic and notional development of the term "bodhi-satva" (roughly: > *sakta > ?satta > ?satva). > > WS > > "Jonathan Silk" schrieb: > > I am afraid that at the moment I do not have to hand the review cited by > Prof Slaje, but anyway, so-called failure to geminate on the one hand, and > Paninian but 'irregular' gemination on the other (e.g., karmma etc) are > regular features of many Buddhist Sanskrit (or if one insists, 'hybrid' > Sanskrit) manuscripts, not limited to those of Nepal. (Sometimes this is > script-dependent; in so-called Khotanese-style MSS we find even prraj? > etc., although the language is Sanskrit) I would not consider it a > linguistic feature at all, merely ('merely'?) a habit of scribes. I am not > even sure that I would be willing to go so far as to compare it to the > habit > (which I personally find charming) of scholars like Edgerton and Bloomfield > to write elefant and the like. > > Jonathan Silk > > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:10 PM, Walter Slaje > wrote: > > > > Dear Victor, > > > Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the manuscripts i > > have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has given a thought > to > > if the latter is not incorrect? DB > > > > > > On bodhi-sattva /?satva cp. > > > > Oskar von Hinueber, Ein Meilenstein in der Erforschung des > > zentralasiatischen Buddhismus. > > Zu einem neuen Katalog khotan-sakischer Handschriften > > (Skj?rv?, Prods Oktor: Khotanese Manuscripts from Chinese > > Turke stan in the British Library: a complete catalogue with texts > > and translations, London 2002), ZDMG 157. 2007, 385-394 > > ("bodhisattva"-elucidation on pp.387-389) > > WS > > -- > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Postbus 9515 > 2300 RA Leiden > Netherlands > > -- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From ATHR at LOC.GOV Fri Dec 19 18:05:51 2008 From: ATHR at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 08 13:05:51 -0500 Subject: Obituary-Pandit Nilkanth Gurtoo (A Sanskrit Pandit from Kashmir) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084264.23782.191171820860057255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am very sorry to hear of the death of Pdt. Gurtoo. Are his unpublished works in such a state that they could be made available by scanning and mounting on the web? Allen Thrasher "Many of his works remained unpublished because of want of resources." Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Fri Dec 19 16:33:35 2008 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 08 16:33:35 +0000 Subject: questions on bodhisattva vow In-Reply-To: <665CDF49E0D44D1A9AC73195DE946763@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227084266.23782.14424806718951466239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Why? Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK At 11:24 pm +0100 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert wrote: >Dear Allen, >Such questions might actually spell the end of Buddhism as we know it (upto >now anyway). >Warm greetings >Victor > >-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Allen W Thrasher >Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 23:04 >Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Onderwerp: questions on bodhisattva vow > >Dear Victor, > >They are just questions that came to me, and not from any recent reading on >bodhisattvas. > >All the best, > >Allen > >"Dear Allen, >These are interesting questions, but I do not know from what point of view >they are posed. They look like questions critical non-believers might pose, >or they are questions that medieval scholastics might have posed as an >exercise in theological rhetorics. Could you elucidate if these are >questions you have actually come across somewhere? > >Kind regards >Victor van Bijlert" From jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 20 01:48:28 2008 From: jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM (girish jha) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 08 17:48:28 -0800 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <788194.84048.qm@web8608.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084269.23782.17515940786362361085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Bhattacharya, The Sanskrit word Bodhisattva is accepted by Buddhists also in Buddhist Sanskrit and is not a hybrid one. The derivation of bodhi and sattva: wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 3:25 AM Dear Victor, Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the manuscripts i have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has?given a thought to if the?latter is not incorrect???DB --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 2:26 PM Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's questions could be posed from the point of view of a recent convert to Buddhism who finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more sociological approach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily explain these matters. It is perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in reality is not there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. The latter may be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This means that the ansers to these questions would be manifold. I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the finer points of Buddhist doctrine. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow Allen, Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your questions (you've already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the-literature type answer? These are not necessarily the same. First, there have been several discussions over the last couple of decades between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h-buddhism, very little in actual print) over the soundness of the assertion that: The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have done so before him. More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance of that vow. While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on Buddhism, it is far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion on what those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of which this is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is not in evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it may have been a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere speculation and one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking gun to settle the matter). Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of delaying one's own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already attained it (what Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that bodhisattvas, unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the sake of others, is present in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti Sutra (though how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly discussed in Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, explains that Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and so, out of fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has overcome such fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to assist other sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last sentient being has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha Maitreya's job, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven and will be reborn as a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even suggests that the amount of time of the delay may vary with the degree of the bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely avoids the dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments (this text is also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two subsequent bhumis in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some will also posit kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help others. The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly in any detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has entered parinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent working for the benefit of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is he still around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus Sutra, one of the earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of Buddha, in which "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with "Sakyamuni, but is a cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. That idea influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect ways (for instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). So, if post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with sentient beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, based on a misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once-returner, a nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off being born, since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes (once born in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non-returner, etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the Lotus track, sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to the Buddhist dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while a Buddha that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses to say whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). To address your questions more directly: 1. Does this mean never? Why be such a pessimist? 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified from nirvana? There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my reading of those debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika would be some continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by opponents of the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of holding that position. An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that habit may continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; there are lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient beings that recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings are added and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like Hindus, many Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire pluriverse comes into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of liberation, so this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in certain moods, Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? See above. Dan Lusthaus Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 20 01:58:51 2008 From: jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM (girish jha) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 08 17:58:51 -0800 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <434551.4959.qm@web8604.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084271.23782.16076792325660246684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Bhattacharya, The Sanskrit word Bodhisattva is accepted by Buddhists also in Buddhist Sanskrit and is not a hybrid one. The derivation of bodhi and sattva: wrote: From: girish jha Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva To: "Indology" Date: Friday, December 19, 2008, 5:48 PM Dear Mr Bhattacharya, The Sanskrit word Bodhisattva is accepted by Buddhists also in Buddhist Sanskrit and is not a hybrid one. The derivation of bodhi and sattva: wrote: ? --- On Thu, 12/18/08, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 8:56 AM 18 12 08 The origin of -satva in bodhisatva may be satvan 'valiant' thematised like dharman>dharma. The Tibetan equivalents seem to support this. A?discussion in this line occurs in 'The preliminaries of the Vajraavalii' S.K.Pathak Felicitation volume S.P.Bhandar Kolkata, 2008. Unfortunately I have not yet got the book. DB --- On Thu, 18/12/08, Jonathan Silk wrote: From: Jonathan Silk Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 9:22 PM Ah. This may well be (without reading it of course I say nothing), but irrespective of the history, *within Sanskrit* ?satva was, I think it is fair to say, always understood as ?sattva; the question then is simply one of orthography. But this is far from the only case in which degemination occurs, another reason to uncouple the question of etymology/history from that of orthography. JAS On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: > The passage I have referred to contains a thorough excursus on the > linguistic and notional development of the term "bodhi-satva" (roughly: > *sakta > ?satta > ?satva). > > WS > > "Jonathan Silk" schrieb: > > I am afraid that at the moment I do not have to hand the review cited by > Prof Slaje, but anyway, so-called failure to geminate on the one hand, and > Paninian but 'irregular' gemination on the other (e.g., karmma etc) are > regular features of many Buddhist Sanskrit (or if one insists, 'hybrid' > Sanskrit) manuscripts, not limited to those of Nepal. (Sometimes this is > script-dependent; in so-called Khotanese-style MSS we find even prraj? > etc., although the language is Sanskrit) I would not consider it a > linguistic feature at all, merely ('merely'?) a habit of scribes. I am not > even sure that I would be willing to go so far as to compare it to the > habit > (which I personally find charming) of scholars like Edgerton and Bloomfield > to write elefant and the like. > > Jonathan Silk > > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:10 PM, Walter Slaje > wrote: > > > > Dear Victor, > > > Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the manuscripts i > > have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has given a thought > to > > if the latter is not incorrect? DB > > > > > > On bodhi-sattva /?satva cp. > > > > Oskar von Hinueber, Ein Meilenstein in der Erforschung des > > zentralasiatischen Buddhismus. > > Zu einem neuen Katalog khotan-sakischer Handschriften > > (Skj?rv?, Prods Oktor: Khotanese Manuscripts from Chinese > > Turke stan in the British Library: a complete catalogue with texts > > and translations, London 2002), ZDMG 157. 2007, 385-394 > > ("bodhisattva"-elucidation on pp.387-389) > > WS > > -- > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Postbus 9515 > 2300 RA Leiden > Netherlands > > -- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 19 17:15:27 2008 From: mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 08 22:45:27 +0530 Subject: Obituary-Pandit Nilkanth Gurtoo (A Sanskrit Pandit from Kashmir) Message-ID: <161227084261.23782.775594574368986102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, I think not many scholars would know Pandit Nilkanth Gurtoo whom I regarded the last traditional Sanskrit pandit of Kashmir. He passed away on 18 December 2008 in New Delhi. With him the Kashmirian tradition of Sanskrit scholarship comes to an end. He prepared editions and translations of many difficult texts belonging to Kashmirian Trika domain of Saivism. Many of his works remained unpublished because of want of resources. Here is a list of his publications; 1.Paratrisikavivarana with Hindi translation and commentary, Motilal Banarsidass, New Delhi. (1985). 2.Spandakarika with Kallata's vrtti translated into Hindi with commentary, Motilal Banarsidass, New Delhi. (1981). 3.Harsesvaramahatmayam translated into English with detailed anottations, Penma Publishers, Delhi. (2000). 4.Parmarthasara with Hindi translation of Yogaraja's commentary with an elaborate introduction, Penman Publishers, Delhi. (2004). 5.Sambapancasika with Ksemaraja's commentary translated into Hindi, Penman Publishers, Delhi. (2002) 6.Sivastotravali of Utpaladeva with Ksemaraja's commentary and Hindi translation by Swami Lakshman Joo. Edited by Nilkanth Gurtoo, Ishwar Ashram Trust, Srinagar (Kashmir). 7.Parapravesika of Ksemaraja explaned into Kashmiri and edited by Makhanlal Kukiloo, Ishwar Ashram Trust, Srinagar, Kashmir. (1996). 8.Amareshwaramahatmayam translated into Hindi with Pandit Dinanath Yaksha, Srinagar, Kashmir. (?). 9.Rajatarangini of Jonaraja translated into Hindi (only a part of it). (Unpublished). 10.Pratyabhijnahrdayam of Ksemaraja translated into Hindi with elaborated notes and annotations with the help of Professor Balajinnath Pandit and Swami Lakshman Joo. (Unpublished). 11.Kashmira-saiva-darsana-brhat-kosa (in two volumes) edited jointly with Prof Yashpal Khajuriya and Prof Balajinnath Pandit. Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, Jammu (J&K). (2001-2005). Pandit Nilkanth Gurtoo was born on 2 January, 1925 in Srinagar (Kashmir). He was initiated into Sanskrit studies by Pandit Maheshwar Nath Nehru and Pandit Jankinath Dhar. Later, he learned advanced texts of Sanskrit grammar and linguistics from Pandit Lalkak Langoo, Pandit Harbhatta Shastri and Pandit Sarvadananda Handoo. He also qualified the traditional degrees of Prajna, Visharada and Shastri in Sanskrit from Government Sanskrit College in Srinagar. After qualifying for Prabhakar degree he went ahead and earned a B.A. in Sanskrit. Pandit Gurtoo initially worked in Government Sanskrit School of Tral village in Kashmir as a Sanskrit teacher. While teaching there he also earned a M.A. in Sanskrit. Thereafter, in 1955 he was appointed as Head-pandit in the Jammu & Kashmir Research and Publication Department of Government of Jammu & Kashmir. Later, while teaching in the Government Souer College in his capacity as a lecturer of Sanskrit, he also obtained a degree of M.A. in Hindi. Since 1958 till the time of his retirement he taught in Amar Singh College in Srinagar (Kashmir). Pandit Nilkanth Gurtoo was not only confined to teaching in academic institutions, but he covered that extra mile and went ahead to learn about the Kashmirian Saiva schools from his teachers like Professor Balajinnath Pandit and Swami Lakshman Joo. -- ************************* Mrinal Kaul # 37/4 Pandoka Colony Paloura, Jammu - 181121 Jammu & Kashmir INDIA ************************* Phone: 91-191-2532549 Cell: 91-9999488911 (Delhi) Cell: 91-9419789213 (J&K) Cell: 44-7909640319 (UK) ************************* http://mkmartand.blogspot.com http://mrinalkaul.art.officelive.com From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Sat Dec 20 14:46:35 2008 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (JOHN HUNTINGTON) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 08 09:46:35 -0500 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <684065.13910.qm@web8604.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084280.23782.6918223143123244488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My son, Eric R. Huntington, is working on some Newar?Sanskrit Manuscripts that are vidhi?for ?the Vajradhatu?mandala. TheY?range fro 16th to 19th century and are all fairly good?Newar?Sanskrit. In them "bodhisattva" is 'usually' (Eric's?code for he is not 100% certain) with one t. He doesn't remember any with two t's I would also point out that the mantras?for Vajrasattva?in the sources that I have looked into are always one t, (e.g., OM?VAJRA?SA TVA HUM as constructed in Tibetan script.) As we are on a family holiday we are both away from our resources until January, so cannot carry this any farther at this time.? What about in Pala?Manuscripts? John? ----- Original Message ----- From: Dipak?Bhattacharya? Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:04 am Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > 20 12 08 > ? > > Has the reading bodhisattva been found in any ms?that is ?not a > copy made by a modern scholar? > with the status of Bodhisattva and the term contains 'tt' > there.> > Where is Jinendrabuddhi?so referred to? Was the ms-reading checked? > These require clarification. > DB > > --- On Sat, 20/12/08, girish?jha? wrote: > > From: girish jha > Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Saturday, 20 December, 2008, 7:18 AM > > Dear Mr Bhattacharya, > The Sanskrit word Bodhisattva is accepted by Buddhists also in > BuddhistSanskrit and is not a hybrid one. > The derivation of bodhi and sattva: > of Sam?dhi. > Sato bh?vah sattvam.Sattvam dravye gu?e cite vyavas?yasvabh?vayo? > One who has strongly resolved for bodhi is bodhisattva..There > may be some > copyist?s > mistakes in manuscripts.The author of Nyasa commentry on Kasika,too,is > mentioned with the status of Bodhisattva and the term contains 'tt' > there. > Regards, > Sincerely > GIRISH K. JHA > SANSKRIT,PATNA UNIV.INDIA > > > --- On Thu, 12/18/08, Dipak Bhattacharya > wrote: > > From: Dipak Bhattacharya > Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 3:25 AM > > Dear Victor, > Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the > manuscripts i > have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has?given a > thought to if the?latter is not incorrect???DB > > --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert > wrote: > > From: victor van Bijlert > Subject: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 2:26 PM > > Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's > questionscould be posed from the point of view of a recent > convert to Buddhism who > finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more > sociologicalapproach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily > explain these matters. It is > perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these > questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in > reality is not > there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. > The latter may > be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This > means that > the ansers to these questions would be manifold. > > I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the > finer points > of Buddhist doctrine. > > Victor van Bijlert > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus > Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow > > Allen, > > Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your > questions (you've > already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the- > literature type > answer? These are not necessarily the same. > > First, there have been several discussions over the last couple > of decades > between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h- > buddhism,very little in actual print) over the soundness of the > assertion that: > > The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other > sentient beings have done so before him. > > More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance > of that vow. > While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on > Buddhism, it is > far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages > possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion > on what > those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of > which this > is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is > not in > evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it > may have been > a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere > speculation and > one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking > gun to settle > the matter). > > Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of > delaying one's > own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already > attained it (what > Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly > invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that > bodhisattvas,unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the > sake of others, is present > in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting > everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti > Sutra (though > how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly > discussed in > Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, > explainsthat > Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and > so, out of > fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has > overcome such > fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to > assist other > sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is > interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last > sentient being > has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha > Maitreya'sjob, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven > and will be reborn as > a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the > bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even > suggeststhat the amount of time of the delay may vary with the > degree of the > bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely > avoids the > dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing > Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments > (this text is > also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). > > In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, > enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two > subsequent bhumis > in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some > will also > posit > kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some > bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help > others. > The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly > in any > detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has > enteredparinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent > working for the benefit > of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is > he still > around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus > Sutra, one of the > earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of > Buddha, in which > "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with > "Sakyamuni, but is a > cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. > That idea > influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect > ways (for > instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). > So, if > post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with sentient > beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, > based on a > misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with > buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once- > returner, a > nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off > being born, > since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes > (once born > in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non- > returner,etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the > Lotus track, > sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to > the Buddhist > dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the > Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while > a Buddha > that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of > annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses > to say > whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). > > To address your questions more directly: > > 1.? Does this mean never? > > Why be such a pessimist? > > 2.? If so, is it because some beings are permanently > disqualified from > nirvana? > > There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings > possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full > awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my > reading of those > debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika > would be some > continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by > opponentsof the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of > holding that position. > An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that > habit may > continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. > > 3.? Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, > and so though each > will eventually enter it, there will always be more?? (I'm > not sure this > makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) > > This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; > there are > lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). > Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient > beings that > recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings > are added > and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like > Hindus, many > Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire > pluriverse comes > into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of > characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of > liberation, so > this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in > certain moods, > Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. > > 5.? Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? > > See above. > > Dan Lusthaus > > > > ????? Add more friends to your > messenger and enjoy! Go to > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > > > > > > > > ????? Add more friends to your > messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > > > -- > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 766698150) is spam: > Spam:??????? > https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836eNot > spam:??? https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836e > Forget vote: > https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836e---- > -------------------------------------------------- > END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * John C. Huntington, Professor ??? (Buddhist art and Practice Methodologies)? ??? The Department of the History of Art ??? The Ohio State University From mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 20 06:02:09 2008 From: mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 08 11:32:09 +0530 Subject: Obituary-Pandit Nilkanth Gurtoo (A Sanskrit Pandit from Kashmir) In-Reply-To: <494B9C2F0200003A0004B8C4@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084277.23782.5113657848045102436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen, I am yet to find that out. I will have to talk to his family members and sort out the things. Thanks for asking anyway. In case I find some useful unpublished material, I shall try to put the scanned versions online. Best. MK ************************* Mrinal Kaul # 37/4 Pandoka Colony Paloura, Jammu - 181121 Jammu & Kashmir INDIA ************************* Phone: 91-191-2532549 Cell: 91-9999488911 (Delhi) Cell: 91-9419789213 (J&K) Cell: 44-7909640319 (UK) ************************* http://mkmartand.blogspot.com http://mrinalkaul.art.officelive.com On 19-Dec-08, at 11:35 PM, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > I am very sorry to hear of the death of Pdt. Gurtoo. > > Are his unpublished works in such a state that they could be made > available by scanning and mounting on the web? > > Allen Thrasher > > "Many of his works remained unpublished because of want of resources." > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the > Library of Congress. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sat Dec 20 06:03:13 2008 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 08 11:33:13 +0530 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <899849.14184.qm@web57706.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084274.23782.4811053664102327191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 20 12 08 ? Has the reading bodhisattva been found in any ms that is ?not a copy made by a modern scholar? Where is Jinendrabuddhi so referred to? Was the ms-reading checked? These require clarification. DB --- On Sat, 20/12/08, girish jha wrote: From: girish jha Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Saturday, 20 December, 2008, 7:18 AM Dear Mr Bhattacharya, The Sanskrit word Bodhisattva is accepted by Buddhists also in Buddhist Sanskrit and is not a hybrid one. The derivation of bodhi and sattva: wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 3:25 AM Dear Victor, Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the manuscripts i have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has?given a thought to if the?latter is not incorrect???DB --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 2:26 PM Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's questions could be posed from the point of view of a recent convert to Buddhism who finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more sociological approach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily explain these matters. It is perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in reality is not there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. The latter may be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This means that the ansers to these questions would be manifold. I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the finer points of Buddhist doctrine. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow Allen, Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your questions (you've already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the-literature type answer? These are not necessarily the same. First, there have been several discussions over the last couple of decades between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h-buddhism, very little in actual print) over the soundness of the assertion that: The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have done so before him. More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance of that vow. While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on Buddhism, it is far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion on what those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of which this is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is not in evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it may have been a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere speculation and one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking gun to settle the matter). Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of delaying one's own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already attained it (what Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that bodhisattvas, unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the sake of others, is present in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti Sutra (though how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly discussed in Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, explains that Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and so, out of fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has overcome such fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to assist other sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last sentient being has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha Maitreya's job, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven and will be reborn as a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even suggests that the amount of time of the delay may vary with the degree of the bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely avoids the dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments (this text is also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two subsequent bhumis in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some will also posit kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help others. The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly in any detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has entered parinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent working for the benefit of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is he still around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus Sutra, one of the earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of Buddha, in which "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with "Sakyamuni, but is a cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. That idea influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect ways (for instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). So, if post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with sentient beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, based on a misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once-returner, a nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off being born, since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes (once born in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non-returner, etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the Lotus track, sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to the Buddhist dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while a Buddha that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses to say whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). To address your questions more directly: 1. Does this mean never? Why be such a pessimist? 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified from nirvana? There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my reading of those debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika would be some continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by opponents of the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of holding that position. An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that habit may continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; there are lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient beings that recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings are added and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like Hindus, many Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire pluriverse comes into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of liberation, so this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in certain moods, Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? See above. Dan Lusthaus Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Sun Dec 21 08:50:41 2008 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 08 02:50:41 -0600 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva Message-ID: <161227084289.23782.538860420877936980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The hypothesis that sattva in bodhisattva, mahaasattva, etc., might be related to satvan was already advanced by Har Dayal some 70 years ago. I suggest a review of his work on the part of those who are interested. Before jumping to conclusions based on the ms. evidence of satva, instead of sattva, I would suggest verifying whether or not the same orthography is found in the case of the word sattva, as in sarvasattva- "all living beings." In this case proposed derivations from zakta, satvan, etc., do not seem plausible; and if sattva in this usage is also spelled satva, it would seem to at least call into question the impulse to treat bodhisat(t)va as a special case. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Dec 21 09:25:54 2008 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 08 04:25:54 -0500 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva Message-ID: <161227084292.23782.9198541233972694042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Tibetan for bodhisat(t)va would be relatively late, and could reflect later folk etymologies. The Chinese, for many centuries before the Tibetan translations, used the transcription pusa ??, an acrostic-type abbreviation for puti ?? + saduo ?? (bodhisattva => puti-saduo => pusa). They translated sattva (alone or in compounds such as bodhisattva, or mahAsattva ????) as ?? zhongsheng, lit. multitude of living (things), or ?? youqing, lit. having feelings (i.e., sentient being). As the 7th c. (early Tang) Buddhist dictionary by Huilin explains: "Sattva [saduo] = transcription from Sanskrit. In current Chinese (i.e., Sui-Tang period) youqing (sentient being); in older translations zhongsheng (multitude of living things), which misses the right meaning." ??(???????????????????) Yiqie jing yin yi (Sounds and Meanings of all [Words] in the Sutras) ??? ??, fasc. 12; T.54.2128.382a12. The number of "t"-s seem immaterial; the meaning (whichever of the Chinese equivalents one prefers) is plainly for sattva, not satva(n). Dan Lusthaus From mjslouber at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Dec 21 03:13:04 2008 From: mjslouber at BERKELEY.EDU (Michael Slouber) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 08 08:58:04 +0545 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084283.23782.3452963532592655935.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It should be noted that this type of degemination is not at all limited to Bauddha manuscripts. It is the norm for words like "tattva" to be spelled "tatva" in almost every "Saiva manuscript I have seen, and at least one Naa.taka. Most of these are from Nepal. Perhaps someone with broader experience can comment if it reaches to other genres and regions as well. Michael Slouber PhD Candidate South and Southeast Asian Studies UC Berkeley On Dec 20, 2008, at 8:31 PM, JOHN HUNTINGTON wrote: > My son, Eric R. Huntington, is working on some Newar Sanskrit > Manuscripts that are vidhi for the Vajradhatu mandala. TheY range > fro 16th to 19th century and are all fairly good Newar Sanskrit. In > them "bodhisattva" is 'usually' (Eric's code for he is not 100% > certain) with one t. He doesn't remember any with two t's > > > I would also point out that the mantras for Vajrasattva in the > sources that I have looked into are always one t, (e.g., OM VAJRA SA > TVA HUM as constructed in Tibetan script.) > > > As we are on a family holiday we are both away from our resources > until January, so cannot carry this any farther at this time. > > > What about in Pala Manuscripts? > > > John > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dipak Bhattacharya > Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:04 am > Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > >> 20 12 08 >> >> >> Has the reading bodhisattva been found in any ms that is not a >> copy made by a modern scholar? >> > with the status of Bodhisattva and the term contains 'tt' >> there.> >> Where is Jinendrabuddhi so referred to? Was the ms-reading checked? >> These require clarification. >> DB >> >> --- On Sat, 20/12/08, girish jha wrote: >> >> From: girish jha >> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Saturday, 20 December, 2008, 7:18 AM >> >> Dear Mr Bhattacharya, >> The Sanskrit word Bodhisattva is accepted by Buddhists also in >> BuddhistSanskrit and is not a hybrid one. >> The derivation of bodhi and sattva: >> > of Sam?dhi. >> Sato bh?vah sattvam.Sattvam dravye gu?e cite >> vyavas?yasvabh?vayo? >> One who has strongly resolved for bodhi is bodhisattva..There >> may be some >> copyist?s >> mistakes in manuscripts.The author of Nyasa commentry on >> Kasika,too,is >> mentioned with the status of Bodhisattva and the term contains 'tt' >> there. >> Regards, >> Sincerely >> GIRISH K. JHA >> SANSKRIT,PATNA UNIV.INDIA >> >> >> --- On Thu, 12/18/08, Dipak Bhattacharya >> wrote: >> >> From: Dipak Bhattacharya >> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 3:25 AM >> >> Dear Victor, >> Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the >> manuscripts i >> have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has given a >> thought to if the latter is not incorrect? DB >> >> --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert >> wrote: >> >> From: victor van Bijlert >> Subject: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 2:26 PM >> >> Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's >> questionscould be posed from the point of view of a recent >> convert to Buddhism who >> finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more >> sociologicalapproach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily >> explain these matters. It is >> perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these >> questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in >> reality is not >> there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. >> The latter may >> be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This >> means that >> the ansers to these questions would be manifold. >> >> I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the >> finer points >> of Buddhist doctrine. >> >> Victor van Bijlert >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus >> Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 >> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow >> >> Allen, >> >> Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your >> questions (you've >> already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the- >> literature type >> answer? These are not necessarily the same. >> >> First, there have been several discussions over the last couple >> of decades >> between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h- >> buddhism,very little in actual print) over the soundness of the >> assertion that: >> >> The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other >> sentient beings have done so before him. >> >> More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance >> of that vow. >> While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on >> Buddhism, it is >> far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages >> possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion >> on what >> those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of >> which this >> is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is >> not in >> evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it >> may have been >> a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere >> speculation and >> one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking >> gun to settle >> the matter). >> >> Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of >> delaying one's >> own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already >> attained it (what >> Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly >> invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that >> bodhisattvas,unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the >> sake of others, is present >> in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting >> everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti >> Sutra (though >> how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly >> discussed in >> Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, >> explainsthat >> Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and >> so, out of >> fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has >> overcome such >> fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to >> assist other >> sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is >> interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last >> sentient being >> has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha >> Maitreya'sjob, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven >> and will be reborn as >> a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the >> bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even >> suggeststhat the amount of time of the delay may vary with the >> degree of the >> bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely >> avoids the >> dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing >> Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments >> (this text is >> also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). >> >> In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, >> enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two >> subsequent bhumis >> in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some >> will also >> posit >> kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some >> bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help >> others. >> The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly >> in any >> detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has >> enteredparinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent >> working for the benefit >> of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is >> he still >> around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus >> Sutra, one of the >> earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of >> Buddha, in which >> "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with >> "Sakyamuni, but is a >> cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. >> That idea >> influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect >> ways (for >> instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). >> So, if >> post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with >> sentient >> beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, >> based on a >> misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with >> buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once- >> returner, a >> nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off >> being born, >> since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes >> (once born >> in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non- >> returner,etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the >> Lotus track, >> sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to >> the Buddhist >> dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the >> Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while >> a Buddha >> that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of >> annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses >> to say >> whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). >> >> To address your questions more directly: >> >> 1. Does this mean never? >> >> Why be such a pessimist? >> >> 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently >> disqualified from >> nirvana? >> >> There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings >> possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full >> awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my >> reading of those >> debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika >> would be some >> continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by >> opponentsof the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of >> holding that position. >> An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that >> habit may >> continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. >> >> 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, >> and so though each >> will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm >> not sure this >> makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) >> >> This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; >> there are >> lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). >> Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient >> beings that >> recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings >> are added >> and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like >> Hindus, many >> Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire >> pluriverse comes >> into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of >> characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of >> liberation, so >> this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in >> certain moods, >> Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. >> >> 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? >> >> See above. >> >> Dan Lusthaus >> >> >> >> Add more friends to your >> messenger and enjoy! Go to >> http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Add more friends to your >> messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >> >> >> -- >> BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 766698150) is spam: >> Spam: >> https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836eNot >> spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? >> c=n&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836e >> Forget vote: >> https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836e---- >> -------------------------------------------------- >> END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >> > > _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * > > John C. Huntington, Professor > (Buddhist art and Practice Methodologies) > The Department of the History of Art > The Ohio State University From cbpicron at GMX.DE Sun Dec 21 09:34:22 2008 From: cbpicron at GMX.DE (Claudine Picron) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 08 10:34:22 +0100 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva Message-ID: <161227084294.23782.82469600497253614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An epigraphical and art-historical reference: the term "bodhisatva" occurs in the Mathura images of the Kushan period. See Herbert H?rtel, "The concept of he Kapardin Buddha Type of Mathura", in: South Asian Archaeology 1983, eds J. Schotsmans & M. Taddei, Naples: Istituto Universitario Orientale, Series Minor XXII, volume 2, pp. 653-78. And concerning the manuscripts from Eastern India: Gouriswar Bhattacharya told me once that there also the word is written with one t only. Claudine Bautze-Picron. ----- Original Message ----- From: "victor van Bijlert" To: Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:57 PM Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva Dear Prof. Bhattacharya, You are perfectly right. I remember a class with Prof. Jonathan Silk in which he also indicated that bodhisatva was spelled with a single 't'in the manuscripts. This point is worth looking into. However, I do not recall having mentioned the word itself in my posting (which is the contribution of a layman). Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dipak Bhattacharya Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 12:26 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva Dear Victor, Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the manuscripts i have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has given a thought to if the latter is not incorrect? DB --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 2:26 PM Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's questions could be posed from the point of view of a recent convert to Buddhism who finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more sociological approach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily explain these matters. It is perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in reality is not there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. The latter may be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This means that the ansers to these questions would be manifold. I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the finer points of Buddhist doctrine. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow Allen, Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your questions (you've already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the-literature type answer? These are not necessarily the same. First, there have been several discussions over the last couple of decades between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h-buddhism, very little in actual print) over the soundness of the assertion that: The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have done so before him. More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance of that vow. While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on Buddhism, it is far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion on what those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of which this is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is not in evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it may have been a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere speculation and one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking gun to settle the matter). Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of delaying one's own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already attained it (what Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that bodhisattvas, unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the sake of others, is present in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti Sutra (though how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly discussed in Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, explains that Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and so, out of fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has overcome such fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to assist other sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last sentient being has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha Maitreya's job, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven and will be reborn as a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even suggests that the amount of time of the delay may vary with the degree of the bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely avoids the dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments (this text is also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two subsequent bhumis in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some will also posit kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help others. The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly in any detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has entered parinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent working for the benefit of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is he still around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus Sutra, one of the earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of Buddha, in which "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with "Sakyamuni, but is a cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. That idea influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect ways (for instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). So, if post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with sentient beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, based on a misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once-returner, a nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off being born, since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes (once born in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non-returner, etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the Lotus track, sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to the Buddhist dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while a Buddha that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses to say whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). To address your questions more directly: 1. Does this mean never? Why be such a pessimist? 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified from nirvana? There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my reading of those debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika would be some continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by opponents of the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of holding that position. An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that habit may continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; there are lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient beings that recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings are added and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like Hindus, many Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire pluriverse comes into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of liberation, so this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in certain moods, Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? See above. Dan Lusthaus Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sun Dec 21 05:28:51 2008 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 08 10:58:51 +0530 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <63E729B0-A843-4228-90F7-5F6AEB8607BB@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227084286.23782.8667666183583682065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 21 12 08 Examining the Tibetan equivalents may help. I?hesitate to intimate the results in?detail. Posting here an? account of the course adopted?may prove to be?cumbrous and, I am afraid, pedantic and self-promoting, contrary to the spirit of the club.??But -sattva? does not seem to have been meant, neither in bodhisatva(bya:n.chub.sems.dpah) nor in vajrasatva(rdo.rje sems.dpah). (The velar n is :n above.) The connotation of valiance in the final two syllables reminds one of satvan. But further enquiries are possible and desirable.??I hope someone will do. The learned contributions were very encouraging and enlightening for me. I am grateful to?my colleagues. DB --- On Sun, 21/12/08, Michael Slouber wrote: From: Michael Slouber Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 21 December, 2008, 8:43 AM It should be noted that this type of degemination is not at all limited to Bauddha manuscripts. It is the norm for words like "tattva" to be spelled "tatva" in almost every "Saiva manuscript I have seen, and at least one Naa.taka. Most of these are from Nepal. Perhaps someone with broader experience can comment if it reaches to other genres and regions as well. Michael Slouber PhD Candidate South and Southeast Asian Studies UC Berkeley On Dec 20, 2008, at 8:31 PM, JOHN HUNTINGTON wrote: > My son, Eric R. Huntington, is working on some Newar Sanskrit Manuscripts that are vidhi for the Vajradhatu mandala. TheY range fro 16th to 19th century and are all fairly good Newar Sanskrit. In them "bodhisattva" is 'usually' (Eric's code for he is not 100% certain) with one t. He doesn't remember any with two t's > > > I would also point out that the mantras for Vajrasattva in the sources that I have looked into are always one t, (e.g., OM VAJRA SA TVA HUM as constructed in Tibetan script.) > > > As we are on a family holiday we are both away from our resources until January, so cannot carry this any farther at this time. > > > What about in Pala Manuscripts? > > > John > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dipak Bhattacharya > Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:04 am > Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > >> 20 12 08 >> >> >> Has the reading bodhisattva been found in any ms that is not a >> copy made by a modern scholar? >> > with the status of Bodhisattva and the term contains 'tt' >> there.> >> Where is Jinendrabuddhi so referred to? Was the ms-reading checked? >> These require clarification. >> DB >> >> --- On Sat, 20/12/08, girish jha wrote: >> >> From: girish jha >> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Saturday, 20 December, 2008, 7:18 AM >> >> Dear Mr Bhattacharya, >> The Sanskrit word Bodhisattva is accepted by Buddhists also in >> BuddhistSanskrit and is not a hybrid one. >> The derivation of bodhi and sattva: >> > of Sam?dhi. >> Sato bh?vah sattvam.Sattvam dravye gu?e cite vyavas?yasvabh?vayo? >> One who has strongly resolved for bodhi is bodhisattva..There >> may be some >> copyist?s >> mistakes in manuscripts.The author of Nyasa commentry on Kasika,too,is >> mentioned with the status of Bodhisattva and the term contains 'tt' >> there. >> Regards, >> Sincerely >> GIRISH K. JHA >> SANSKRIT,PATNA UNIV.INDIA >> >> >> --- On Thu, 12/18/08, Dipak Bhattacharya >> wrote: >> >> From: Dipak Bhattacharya >> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 3:25 AM >> >> Dear Victor, >> Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the >> manuscripts i >> have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has given a >> thought to if the latter is not incorrect? DB >> >> --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert >> wrote: >> >> From: victor van Bijlert >> Subject: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 2:26 PM >> >> Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's >> questionscould be posed from the point of view of a recent >> convert to Buddhism who >> finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more >> sociologicalapproach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily >> explain these matters. It is >> perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these >> questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in >> reality is not >> there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. >> The latter may >> be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This >> means that >> the ansers to these questions would be manifold. >> >> I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the >> finer points >> of Buddhist doctrine. >> >> Victor van Bijlert >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus >> Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 >> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow >> >> Allen, >> >> Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your >> questions (you've >> already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the- >> literature type >> answer? These are not necessarily the same. >> >> First, there have been several discussions over the last couple >> of decades >> between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h- >> buddhism,very little in actual print) over the soundness of the >> assertion that: >> >> The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other >> sentient beings have done so before him. >> >> More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance >> of that vow. >> While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on >> Buddhism, it is >> far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages >> possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion >> on what >> those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of >> which this >> is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is >> not in >> evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it >> may have been >> a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere >> speculation and >> one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking >> gun to settle >> the matter). >> >> Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of >> delaying one's >> own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already >> attained it (what >> Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly >> invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that >> bodhisattvas,unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the >> sake of others, is present >> in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting >> everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti >> Sutra (though >> how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly >> discussed in >> Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, >> explainsthat >> Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and >> so, out of >> fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has >> overcome such >> fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to >> assist other >> sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is >> interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last >> sentient being >> has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha >> Maitreya'sjob, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven >> and will be reborn as >> a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the >> bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even >> suggeststhat the amount of time of the delay may vary with the >> degree of the >> bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely >> avoids the >> dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing >> Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments >> (this text is >> also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). >> >> In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, >> enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two >> subsequent bhumis >> in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some >> will also >> posit >> kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some >> bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help >> others. >> The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly >> in any >> detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has >> enteredparinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent >> working for the benefit >> of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is >> he still >> around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus >> Sutra, one of the >> earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of >> Buddha, in which >> "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with >> "Sakyamuni, but is a >> cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. >> That idea >> influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect >> ways (for >> instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). >> So, if >> post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with sentient >> beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, >> based on a >> misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with >> buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once- >> returner, a >> nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off >> being born, >> since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes >> (once born >> in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non- >> returner,etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the >> Lotus track, >> sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to >> the Buddhist >> dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the >> Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while >> a Buddha >> that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of >> annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses >> to say >> whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). >> >> To address your questions more directly: >> >> 1. Does this mean never? >> >> Why be such a pessimist? >> >> 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently >> disqualified from >> nirvana? >> >> There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings >> possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full >> awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my >> reading of those >> debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika >> would be some >> continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by >> opponentsof the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of >> holding that position. >> An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that >> habit may >> continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. >> >> 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, >> and so though each >> will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm >> not sure this >> makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) >> >> This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; >> there are >> lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). >> Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient >> beings that >> recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings >> are added >> and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like >> Hindus, many >> Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire >> pluriverse comes >> into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of >> characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of >> liberation, so >> this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in >> certain moods, >> Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. >> >> 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? >> >> See above. >> >> Dan Lusthaus >> >> >> >> Add more friends to your >> messenger and enjoy! Go to >> http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Add more friends to your >> messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >> >> >> --BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 766698150) is spam: >> Spam: >> https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836eNot >> spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836e >> Forget vote: >> https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836e---- >> -------------------------------------------------- >> END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >> > > _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * > > John C. Huntington, Professor > (Buddhist art and Practice Methodologies) > The Department of the History of Art > The Ohio State University Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Sun Dec 21 11:55:05 2008 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 08 12:55:05 +0100 Subject: questions on bodhisattva vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084296.23782.15532823001239550287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As to why, I could answer at length or briefly. I am sure a brief answer will be preferred. I just reacted to the questions that Allen posted. Teaching introductory classes on Buddhism in the context of science of religions (Religionswissenschaft in German, I am not sure if my English is the correct equivalent), I recognise this type of questions from bright students. They have sympathy for Buddhism initially but some of them are put off by doctrinal points that seem to them without foundation or scholastic but hardly inspirational. I could imagine that modern Buddhist thinkers are working on a 'reformation' of the Buddhist tradition in order to make it relevant in the context of modern life. The kind of questions Allen was bringing to our attention, is, to my mind, the type of questions that late medieval scholastic Buddhist systematisers could have thought of. They bear some similarity with medieval European scholastic theology / philosophy. In any case, I have for a long time entertained the impression that Buddhist logic and epistemology (the schools of Dignaga and Dharmakirti) are very much akin to medieval Western scholastics. At the same time, I am aware that there is a great danger of misinterpreting Buddhist tradition by drawing the wrong comparisons with tradtions from other civilisations. The social and historical context of Buddhism is different from that of medieval Christianity in Western Europe. Nevertheless, as Buddhism is spreading around the world, far outside the Indian social context in which in originated, one could perhaps look forward to a modern rethinking of the Buddhist heritage of the ages, thus enabling its revival en renewal in the modern world. Hence my suggestion: the end of Buddhism as we know it, meaning: heralding Buddhism as we do not yet know it. I hope this will satisfy your 'why' for the moment? With warm greetings Victor -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Valerie J Roebuck Verzonden: vrijdag 19 december 2008 17:34 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow Why? Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK At 11:24 pm +0100 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert wrote: >Dear Allen, >Such questions might actually spell the end of Buddhism as we know it (upto >now anyway). >Warm greetings >Victor > >-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Allen W Thrasher >Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 23:04 >Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Onderwerp: questions on bodhisattva vow > >Dear Victor, > >They are just questions that came to me, and not from any recent reading on >bodhisattvas. > >All the best, > >Allen > >"Dear Allen, >These are interesting questions, but I do not know from what point of view >they are posed. They look like questions critical non-believers might pose, >or they are questions that medieval scholastics might have posed as an >exercise in theological rhetorics. Could you elucidate if these are >questions you have actually come across somewhere? > >Kind regards >Victor van Bijlert" From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Sun Dec 21 13:20:09 2008 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 08 14:20:09 +0100 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <269051.27174.qm@web8601.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084301.23782.13782786853894061751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe the relevant publication is Har Dayal's 'The Bodhisattva Doctrine in Buddhist Sanskrit Literature' edition 1932, page 10. There is here a link to an online edition of this work, but it gives only selected pages as the book itself is still under copyright. http://books.google.nl/books?id=uUveqp7lAVoC&dq=har+dayal+%22bodhisattva%22& printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=yD6YKib3or&sig=-_ZqmzFEk-as4nOddmqzVkeDJjY &hl=nl&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA10,M1 Kind regards Victor -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dipak Bhattacharya Verzonden: zondag 21 december 2008 13:51 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva 21 12 08 Thanks for the information. I discussed the matter with Dr.Gaurishwar Bhattacharya a few years ago. He also published a paper on the matter in Bengali in 2004. He mentioned Schlingloff and a host of Indian and Western scholars starting from L?ders.in the paper and also orally to me but not Har?Dayal. No derivation from satvan too?was proposed by him.??It will be very convenient if information about the publication are made known to us. DB --- On Sun, 21/12/08, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 21 December, 2008, 2:20 PM The hypothesis that sattva in bodhisattva, mahaasattva, etc., might be related to satvan was already advanced by Har Dayal some 70 years ago. I suggest a review of his work on the part of those who are interested. Before jumping to conclusions based on the ms. evidence of satva, instead of sattva, I would suggest verifying whether or not the same orthography is found in the case of the word sattva, as in sarvasattva- "all living beings." In this case proposed derivations from zakta, satvan, etc., do not seem plausible; and if sattva in this usage is also spelled satva, it would seem to at least call into question the impulse to treat bodhisat(t)va as a special case. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Sun Dec 21 13:22:25 2008 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 08 14:22:25 +0100 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <269051.27174.qm@web8601.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084303.23782.8105242446698703174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should correct myself. The relevant page from Har Dayal's book is page 9. But the link I have given works and thus one can check the reference. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dipak Bhattacharya Verzonden: zondag 21 december 2008 13:51 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva 21 12 08 Thanks for the information. I discussed the matter with Dr.Gaurishwar Bhattacharya a few years ago. He also published a paper on the matter in Bengali in 2004. He mentioned Schlingloff and a host of Indian and Western scholars starting from L?ders.in the paper and also orally to me but not Har?Dayal. No derivation from satvan too?was proposed by him.??It will be very convenient if information about the publication are made known to us. DB --- On Sun, 21/12/08, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 21 December, 2008, 2:20 PM The hypothesis that sattva in bodhisattva, mahaasattva, etc., might be related to satvan was already advanced by Har Dayal some 70 years ago. I suggest a review of his work on the part of those who are interested. Before jumping to conclusions based on the ms. evidence of satva, instead of sattva, I would suggest verifying whether or not the same orthography is found in the case of the word sattva, as in sarvasattva- "all living beings." In this case proposed derivations from zakta, satvan, etc., do not seem plausible; and if sattva in this usage is also spelled satva, it would seem to at least call into question the impulse to treat bodhisat(t)va as a special case. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sun Dec 21 12:50:58 2008 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 08 18:20:58 +0530 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <20081221025041.BPO41968@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227084299.23782.4500534176510377422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 21 12 08 Thanks for the information. I discussed the matter with Dr.Gaurishwar Bhattacharya a few years ago. He also published a paper on the matter in Bengali in 2004. He mentioned Schlingloff and a host of Indian and Western scholars starting from L?ders.in the paper and also orally to me but not Har?Dayal. No derivation from satvan too?was proposed by him.??It will be very convenient if information about the publication are made known to us. DB --- On Sun, 21/12/08, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 21 December, 2008, 2:20 PM The hypothesis that sattva in bodhisattva, mahaasattva, etc., might be related to satvan was already advanced by Har Dayal some 70 years ago. I suggest a review of his work on the part of those who are interested. Before jumping to conclusions based on the ms. evidence of satva, instead of sattva, I would suggest verifying whether or not the same orthography is found in the case of the word sattva, as in sarvasattva- "all living beings." In this case proposed derivations from zakta, satvan, etc., do not seem plausible; and if sattva in this usage is also spelled satva, it would seem to at least call into question the impulse to treat bodhisat(t)va as a special case. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Dec 22 19:43:32 2008 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 08 14:43:32 -0500 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva Message-ID: <161227084308.23782.9092785666863541402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Frequently Nagari t's are written starting with a horizontal, with the result that t and tt can look virtually identical. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From a.acri at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon Dec 22 16:57:54 2008 From: a.acri at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Acri, A.) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 08 17:57:54 +0100 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <63E729B0-A843-4228-90F7-5F6AEB8607BB@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227084306.23782.12994565522476747827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Dec 21, 2008, at 4:13 AM, Michael Slouber wrote: > It should be noted that this type of degemination is not at all > limited to Bauddha manuscripts. > It is the norm for words like "tattva" to be spelled "tatva" in > almost every "Saiva manuscript I have seen, and at least one Naa.taka. > Most of these are from Nepal. Perhaps someone with broader > experience can comment if it reaches to other genres and regions as > well. > This is also the case in the totality of the Old Javanese/Sanskrit manuscripts (mostly containing "Saiva texts) that i have read. Perhaps the question might be put in this way: is there any manuscript tradition, within or without the Subcontinent, in which the spelling -ttva is implemented with consistency? Andrea Acri Kern Institute / Leiden Insititute for Area Studies Leiden University > > > > On Dec 20, 2008, at 8:31 PM, JOHN HUNTINGTON wrote: > > >> My son, Eric R. Huntington, is working on some Newar Sanskrit >> Manuscripts that are vidhi for the Vajradhatu mandala. TheY range >> fro 16th to 19th century and are all fairly good Newar Sanskrit. >> In them "bodhisattva" is 'usually' (Eric's code for he is not 100% >> certain) with one t. He doesn't remember any with two t's >> >> >> I would also point out that the mantras for Vajrasattva in the >> sources that I have looked into are always one t, (e.g., OM VAJRA >> SA TVA HUM as constructed in Tibetan script.) >> >> >> As we are on a family holiday we are both away from our resources >> until January, so cannot carry this any farther at this time. >> >> >> What about in Pala Manuscripts? >> >> >> John >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Dipak Bhattacharya >> Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:04 am >> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> >> >>> 20 12 08 >>> >>> >>> Has the reading bodhisattva been found in any ms that is not a >>> copy made by a modern scholar? >>> >> with the status of Bodhisattva and the term contains 'tt' >>> there.> >>> Where is Jinendrabuddhi so referred to? Was the ms-reading checked? >>> These require clarification. >>> DB >>> >>> --- On Sat, 20/12/08, girish jha wrote: >>> >>> From: girish jha >>> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Date: Saturday, 20 December, 2008, 7:18 AM >>> >>> Dear Mr Bhattacharya, >>> The Sanskrit word Bodhisattva is accepted by Buddhists also in >>> BuddhistSanskrit and is not a hybrid one. >>> The derivation of bodhi and sattva: >>> >> of Sam?dhi. >>> Sato bh?vah sattvam.Sattvam dravye gu?e cite >>> vyavas?yasvabh?vayo? >>> One who has strongly resolved for bodhi is bodhisattva..There >>> may be some >>> copyist?s >>> mistakes in manuscripts.The author of Nyasa commentry on >>> Kasika,too,is >>> mentioned with the status of Bodhisattva and the term contains 'tt' >>> there. >>> Regards, >>> Sincerely >>> GIRISH K. JHA >>> SANSKRIT,PATNA UNIV.INDIA >>> >>> >>> --- On Thu, 12/18/08, Dipak Bhattacharya >>> wrote: >>> >>> From: Dipak Bhattacharya >>> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 3:25 AM >>> >>> Dear Victor, >>> Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the >>> manuscripts i >>> have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has given a >>> thought to if the latter is not incorrect? DB >>> >>> --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert >>> wrote: >>> >>> From: victor van Bijlert >>> Subject: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 2:26 PM >>> >>> Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's >>> questionscould be posed from the point of view of a recent >>> convert to Buddhism who >>> finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more >>> sociologicalapproach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily >>> explain these matters. It is >>> perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these >>> questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in >>> reality is not >>> there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. >>> The latter may >>> be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This >>> means that >>> the ansers to these questions would be manifold. >>> >>> I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the >>> finer points >>> of Buddhist doctrine. >>> >>> Victor van Bijlert >>> >>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >>> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus >>> Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 >>> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow >>> >>> Allen, >>> >>> Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your >>> questions (you've >>> already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the- >>> literature type >>> answer? These are not necessarily the same. >>> >>> First, there have been several discussions over the last couple >>> of decades >>> between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h- >>> buddhism,very little in actual print) over the soundness of the >>> assertion that: >>> >>> The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all >>> other >>> sentient beings have done so before him. >>> >>> More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance >>> of that vow. >>> While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on >>> Buddhism, it is >>> far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where >>> passages >>> possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion >>> on what >>> those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of >>> which this >>> is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is >>> not in >>> evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it >>> may have been >>> a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere >>> speculation and >>> one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking >>> gun to settle >>> the matter). >>> >>> Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of >>> delaying one's >>> own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already >>> attained it (what >>> Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly >>> invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that >>> bodhisattvas,unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the >>> sake of others, is present >>> in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting >>> everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti >>> Sutra (though >>> how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly >>> discussed in >>> Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, >>> explainsthat >>> Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and >>> so, out of >>> fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has >>> overcome such >>> fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to >>> assist other >>> sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is >>> interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last >>> sentient being >>> has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha >>> Maitreya'sjob, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven >>> and will be reborn as >>> a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the >>> bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even >>> suggeststhat the amount of time of the delay may vary with the >>> degree of the >>> bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely >>> avoids the >>> dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On >>> Knowing >>> Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments >>> (this text is >>> also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). >>> >>> In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, >>> enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two >>> subsequent bhumis >>> in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some >>> will also >>> posit >>> kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some >>> bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help >>> others. >>> The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly >>> in any >>> detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has >>> enteredparinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent >>> working for the benefit >>> of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is >>> he still >>> around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus >>> Sutra, one of the >>> earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of >>> Buddha, in which >>> "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with >>> "Sakyamuni, but is a >>> cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. >>> That idea >>> influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect >>> ways (for >>> instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). >>> So, if >>> post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with >>> sentient >>> beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, >>> based on a >>> misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with >>> buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once- >>> returner, a >>> nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off >>> being born, >>> since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes >>> (once born >>> in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non- >>> returner,etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the >>> Lotus track, >>> sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to >>> the Buddhist >>> dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the >>> Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while >>> a Buddha >>> that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of >>> annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses >>> to say >>> whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). >>> >>> To address your questions more directly: >>> >>> 1. Does this mean never? >>> >>> Why be such a pessimist? >>> >>> 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently >>> disqualified from >>> nirvana? >>> >>> There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible >>> beings >>> possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full >>> awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my >>> reading of those >>> debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika >>> would be some >>> continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by >>> opponentsof the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of >>> holding that position. >>> An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that >>> habit may >>> continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. >>> >>> 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, >>> and so though each >>> will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm >>> not sure this >>> makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) >>> >>> This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; >>> there are >>> lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them >>> cosmologies). >>> Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient >>> beings that >>> recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings >>> are added >>> and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like >>> Hindus, many >>> Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire >>> pluriverse comes >>> into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of >>> characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of >>> liberation, so >>> this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in >>> certain moods, >>> Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. >>> >>> 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? >>> >>> See above. >>> >>> Dan Lusthaus >>> >>> >>> >>> Add more friends to your >>> messenger and enjoy! Go to >>> http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Add more friends to your >>> messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >>> >>> >>> -- >>> BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 766698150) is spam: >>> Spam: >>> https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836eNot >>> spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? >>> c=n&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836e >>> Forget vote: >>> https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836e---- >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >>> >>> >> >> _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * >> >> John C. Huntington, Professor >> (Buddhist art and Practice Methodologies) >> The Department of the History of Art >> The Ohio State University >> > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 4:13 AM, Michael Slouber wrote: > It should be noted that this type of degemination is not at all > limited to Bauddha manuscripts. > It is the norm for words like "tattva" to be spelled "tatva" in > almost every "Saiva manuscript I have seen, and at least one Naa.taka. > Most of these are from Nepal. Perhaps someone with broader > experience can comment if it reaches to other genres and regions as > well. > > > Michael Slouber > PhD Candidate > South and Southeast Asian Studies > UC Berkeley > > > > On Dec 20, 2008, at 8:31 PM, JOHN HUNTINGTON wrote: > >> My son, Eric R. Huntington, is working on some Newar Sanskrit >> Manuscripts that are vidhi for the Vajradhatu mandala. TheY range >> fro 16th to 19th century and are all fairly good Newar Sanskrit. >> In them "bodhisattva" is 'usually' (Eric's code for he is not 100% >> certain) with one t. He doesn't remember any with two t's >> >> >> I would also point out that the mantras for Vajrasattva in the >> sources that I have looked into are always one t, (e.g., OM VAJRA >> SA TVA HUM as constructed in Tibetan script.) >> >> >> As we are on a family holiday we are both away from our resources >> until January, so cannot carry this any farther at this time. >> >> >> What about in Pala Manuscripts? >> >> >> John >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Dipak Bhattacharya >> Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:04 am >> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> >>> 20 12 08 >>> >>> >>> Has the reading bodhisattva been found in any ms that is not a >>> copy made by a modern scholar? >>> >> with the status of Bodhisattva and the term contains 'tt' >>> there.> >>> Where is Jinendrabuddhi so referred to? Was the ms-reading checked? >>> These require clarification. >>> DB >>> >>> --- On Sat, 20/12/08, girish jha wrote: >>> >>> From: girish jha >>> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Date: Saturday, 20 December, 2008, 7:18 AM >>> >>> Dear Mr Bhattacharya, >>> The Sanskrit word Bodhisattva is accepted by Buddhists also in >>> BuddhistSanskrit and is not a hybrid one. >>> The derivation of bodhi and sattva: >>> >> of Sam?dhi. >>> Sato bh?vah sattvam.Sattvam dravye gu?e cite >>> vyavas?yasvabh?vayo? >>> One who has strongly resolved for bodhi is bodhisattva..There >>> may be some >>> copyist?s >>> mistakes in manuscripts.The author of Nyasa commentry on >>> Kasika,too,is >>> mentioned with the status of Bodhisattva and the term contains 'tt' >>> there. >>> Regards, >>> Sincerely >>> GIRISH K. JHA >>> SANSKRIT,PATNA UNIV.INDIA >>> >>> >>> --- On Thu, 12/18/08, Dipak Bhattacharya >>> wrote: >>> >>> From: Dipak Bhattacharya >>> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 3:25 AM >>> >>> Dear Victor, >>> Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the >>> manuscripts i >>> have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has given a >>> thought to if the latter is not incorrect? DB >>> >>> --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert >>> wrote: >>> >>> From: victor van Bijlert >>> Subject: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 2:26 PM >>> >>> Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's >>> questionscould be posed from the point of view of a recent >>> convert to Buddhism who >>> finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more >>> sociologicalapproach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily >>> explain these matters. It is >>> perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these >>> questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in >>> reality is not >>> there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. >>> The latter may >>> be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This >>> means that >>> the ansers to these questions would be manifold. >>> >>> I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the >>> finer points >>> of Buddhist doctrine. >>> >>> Victor van Bijlert >>> >>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >>> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus >>> Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 >>> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow >>> >>> Allen, >>> >>> Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your >>> questions (you've >>> already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the- >>> literature type >>> answer? These are not necessarily the same. >>> >>> First, there have been several discussions over the last couple >>> of decades >>> between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h- >>> buddhism,very little in actual print) over the soundness of the >>> assertion that: >>> >>> The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all >>> other >>> sentient beings have done so before him. >>> >>> More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance >>> of that vow. >>> While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on >>> Buddhism, it is >>> far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where >>> passages >>> possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion >>> on what >>> those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of >>> which this >>> is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is >>> not in >>> evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it >>> may have been >>> a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere >>> speculation and >>> one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking >>> gun to settle >>> the matter). >>> >>> Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of >>> delaying one's >>> own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already >>> attained it (what >>> Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly >>> invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that >>> bodhisattvas,unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the >>> sake of others, is present >>> in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting >>> everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti >>> Sutra (though >>> how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly >>> discussed in >>> Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, >>> explainsthat >>> Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and >>> so, out of >>> fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has >>> overcome such >>> fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to >>> assist other >>> sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is >>> interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last >>> sentient being >>> has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha >>> Maitreya'sjob, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven >>> and will be reborn as >>> a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the >>> bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even >>> suggeststhat the amount of time of the delay may vary with the >>> degree of the >>> bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely >>> avoids the >>> dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On >>> Knowing >>> Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments >>> (this text is >>> also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). >>> >>> In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, >>> enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two >>> subsequent bhumis >>> in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some >>> will also >>> posit >>> kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some >>> bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help >>> others. >>> The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly >>> in any >>> detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has >>> enteredparinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent >>> working for the benefit >>> of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is >>> he still >>> around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus >>> Sutra, one of the >>> earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of >>> Buddha, in which >>> "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with >>> "Sakyamuni, but is a >>> cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. >>> That idea >>> influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect >>> ways (for >>> instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). >>> So, if >>> post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with >>> sentient >>> beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, >>> based on a >>> misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with >>> buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once- >>> returner, a >>> nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off >>> being born, >>> since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes >>> (once born >>> in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non- >>> returner,etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the >>> Lotus track, >>> sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to >>> the Buddhist >>> dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the >>> Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while >>> a Buddha >>> that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of >>> annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses >>> to say >>> whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). >>> >>> To address your questions more directly: >>> >>> 1. Does this mean never? >>> >>> Why be such a pessimist? >>> >>> 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently >>> disqualified from >>> nirvana? >>> >>> There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible >>> beings >>> possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full >>> awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my >>> reading of those >>> debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika >>> would be some >>> continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by >>> opponentsof the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of >>> holding that position. >>> An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that >>> habit may >>> continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. >>> >>> 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, >>> and so though each >>> will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm >>> not sure this >>> makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) >>> >>> This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; >>> there are >>> lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them >>> cosmologies). >>> Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient >>> beings that >>> recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings >>> are added >>> and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like >>> Hindus, many >>> Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire >>> pluriverse comes >>> into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of >>> characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of >>> liberation, so >>> this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in >>> certain moods, >>> Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. >>> >>> 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? >>> >>> See above. >>> >>> Dan Lusthaus >>> >>> >>> >>> Add more friends to your >>> messenger and enjoy! Go to >>> http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Add more friends to your >>> messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >>> >>> >>> -- >>> BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 766698150) is spam: >>> Spam: >>> https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836eNot >>> spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? >>> c=n&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836e >>> Forget vote: >>> https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836e---- >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >>> >> >> _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * >> >> John C. Huntington, Professor >> (Buddhist art and Practice Methodologies) >> The Department of the History of Art >> The Ohio State University > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Mon Dec 22 21:17:55 2008 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 08 22:17:55 +0100 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: <20081222T144332Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227084311.23782.15313692168225042920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> But then again in Bengali script the difference would be very noticeable. Moreover, if this orthography also occurs in manuscripts from Central Asia that are not written in Nagari, the orthography still needs to be explained. Victor -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Allen W Thrasher Verzonden: maandag 22 december 2008 20:44 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva Frequently Nagari t's are written starting with a horizontal, with the result that t and tt can look virtually identical. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Dec 23 12:06:48 2008 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 08 07:06:48 -0500 Subject: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels In-Reply-To: <17A58BB0-D3AA-40E4-BBDB-7D38C9009832@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227084316.23782.14669625142425160123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At last something sensible in the double t debate! Thanks! Stella Sandahl -- University of Toronto On 22-Dec-08, at 10:21 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > Surely the alternation bodhisatva/bodhisattva in manuscript > transmission has now been more or less explained. > > Gemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels is unproblematic > and no reader is fazed by karmma being written in place of karma. > Degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels has therefore > also long been assumed to be unproblematic by many transmitters of > Sanskrit texts. For many a scribe, there is simply no meaningful > difference between sattva and satva (even if a grammarian might > baulk at writing the second). Reading one, a scribe may happen to > `copy' the other. Many editors therefore pass over this sort of > variation in silence on the grounds that there is no point > differentiating what transmitters of the text have clearly regarded > as functionally identical. > > Michael Slouber has helpfully pointed out the parallel case of > tattva/tatva. But it is perhaps worth considering also such > examples as v.rttyaa (instrumental singular of v.rtti): some > transmitters may in the same text write v.rtti with a doubled t, > but v.rtyaa with a single one. Noone is likely to entertain > speculations about this difference reflecting different notions of > etymology. > > Conclusion: it seems unlikely that anything can be useful known > about the history of the word bodhisattva/bodhisatva from the way > it is written in manuscripts. > > Dominic Goodall > Pondicherry Centre, > Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (French School of Asian Studies) > > On 23 Dec 2008, at 02:47, victor van Bijlert wrote: > >> But then again in Bengali script the difference would be very >> noticeable. >> Moreover, if this orthography also occurs in manuscripts from >> Central Asia >> that are not written in Nagari, the orthography still needs to be >> explained. >> Victor >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Allen W >> Thrasher >> Verzonden: maandag 22 december 2008 20:44 >> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Onderwerp: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >> >> Frequently Nagari t's are written starting with a horizontal, with >> the >> result that t and tt can look virtually identical. >> >> Allen >> >> >> >> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >> Senior Reference Librarian >> Team Coordinator >> South Asia Team, Asian Division >> Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 >> 101 Independence Ave., S.E. >> Washington, DC 20540-4810 >> tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov >> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the >> Library of >> Congress. From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Dec 23 12:52:09 2008 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 08 07:52:09 -0500 Subject: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels In-Reply-To: <1B2F69CCEF844D918A2638A96331EFBE@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227084324.23782.10167157308961110432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Victor, Point taken. But can someone now answer Allen's initial questions which have been overlooked in the double t debate? Happy New Year to all! Stella -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 23-Dec-08, at 7:22 AM, victor van Bijlert wrote: > I do not think the earlier posters were not making sense. For the > significant difference between bodhisattva / bodhisatva and the other > examples is that Buddhist Sanskrit has a tendency to invariably have > meanings slightly different from 'normal' Sanskrit, also depending > on the > context. This is part of the socio-religious rhetoric of Indian > sects in > their debates. A good point to my mind is the very Buddhist advaya > and the > terribly Brahmanical advaita. > > If the Sanskrit bodhisattva / bodhisatva is a kind of translation from > Prakrit / Pali bodhisatta, the latter could have had the meaning of > bodhisatvan with a meaning different from bodhisattva. The double > or single > t makes a semantic difference possible which is not the case with > tatva / > tattva or karma / karmma. > > But I agree, not being a pucka Buddhologist, that I could not care > less > whether bodhisattva is a bodhisatva or a bodhisatta which is actually > perhaps a bodhisatvan. The socio-religious meanings of the term can be > understood from the way the term is used in various Buddhist texts. > Victor van Bijlert > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Stella Sandahl > Verzonden: dinsdag 23 december 2008 13:07 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with > semi-vowels > > At last something sensible in the double t debate! Thanks! > Stella Sandahl > -- > University of Toronto > > > > > On 22-Dec-08, at 10:21 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > >> Surely the alternation bodhisatva/bodhisattva in manuscript >> transmission has now been more or less explained. >> >> Gemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels is unproblematic >> and no reader is fazed by karmma being written in place of karma. >> Degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels has therefore >> also long been assumed to be unproblematic by many transmitters of >> Sanskrit texts. For many a scribe, there is simply no meaningful >> difference between sattva and satva (even if a grammarian might >> baulk at writing the second). Reading one, a scribe may happen to >> `copy' the other. Many editors therefore pass over this sort of >> variation in silence on the grounds that there is no point >> differentiating what transmitters of the text have clearly regarded >> as functionally identical. >> >> Michael Slouber has helpfully pointed out the parallel case of >> tattva/tatva. But it is perhaps worth considering also such >> examples as v.rttyaa (instrumental singular of v.rtti): some >> transmitters may in the same text write v.rtti with a doubled t, >> but v.rtyaa with a single one. Noone is likely to entertain >> speculations about this difference reflecting different notions of >> etymology. >> >> Conclusion: it seems unlikely that anything can be useful known >> about the history of the word bodhisattva/bodhisatva from the way >> it is written in manuscripts. >> >> Dominic Goodall >> Pondicherry Centre, >> Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (French School of Asian Studies) >> >> On 23 Dec 2008, at 02:47, victor van Bijlert wrote: >> >>> But then again in Bengali script the difference would be very >>> noticeable. >>> Moreover, if this orthography also occurs in manuscripts from >>> Central Asia >>> that are not written in Nagari, the orthography still needs to be >>> explained. >>> Victor >>> >>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >>> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Allen W >>> Thrasher >>> Verzonden: maandag 22 december 2008 20:44 >>> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Onderwerp: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >>> >>> Frequently Nagari t's are written starting with a horizontal, with >>> the >>> result that t and tt can look virtually identical. >>> >>> Allen >>> >>> >>> >>> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >>> Senior Reference Librarian >>> Team Coordinator >>> South Asia Team, Asian Division >>> Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 >>> 101 Independence Ave., S.E. >>> Washington, DC 20540-4810 >>> tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov >>> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the >>> Library of >>> Congress. From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 03:21:16 2008 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 08 08:51:16 +0530 Subject: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084313.23782.17429968415295984992.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Surely the alternation bodhisatva/bodhisattva in manuscript transmission has now been more or less explained. Gemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels is unproblematic and no reader is fazed by karmma being written in place of karma. Degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels has therefore also long been assumed to be unproblematic by many transmitters of Sanskrit texts. For many a scribe, there is simply no meaningful difference between sattva and satva (even if a grammarian might baulk at writing the second). Reading one, a scribe may happen to `copy' the other. Many editors therefore pass over this sort of variation in silence on the grounds that there is no point differentiating what transmitters of the text have clearly regarded as functionally identical. Michael Slouber has helpfully pointed out the parallel case of tattva/ tatva. But it is perhaps worth considering also such examples as v.rttyaa (instrumental singular of v.rtti): some transmitters may in the same text write v.rtti with a doubled t, but v.rtyaa with a single one. Noone is likely to entertain speculations about this difference reflecting different notions of etymology. Conclusion: it seems unlikely that anything can be useful known about the history of the word bodhisattva/bodhisatva from the way it is written in manuscripts. Dominic Goodall Pondicherry Centre, Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (French School of Asian Studies) On 23 Dec 2008, at 02:47, victor van Bijlert wrote: > But then again in Bengali script the difference would be very > noticeable. > Moreover, if this orthography also occurs in manuscripts from > Central Asia > that are not written in Nagari, the orthography still needs to be > explained. > Victor > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Allen W > Thrasher > Verzonden: maandag 22 december 2008 20:44 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva > > Frequently Nagari t's are written starting with a horizontal, with the > result that t and tt can look virtually identical. > > Allen > > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Team Coordinator > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the > Library of > Congress. From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Tue Dec 23 12:22:48 2008 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 08 13:22:48 +0100 Subject: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084319.23782.10667546890398484401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not think the earlier posters were not making sense. For the significant difference between bodhisattva / bodhisatva and the other examples is that Buddhist Sanskrit has a tendency to invariably have meanings slightly different from 'normal' Sanskrit, also depending on the context. This is part of the socio-religious rhetoric of Indian sects in their debates. A good point to my mind is the very Buddhist advaya and the terribly Brahmanical advaita. If the Sanskrit bodhisattva / bodhisatva is a kind of translation from Prakrit / Pali bodhisatta, the latter could have had the meaning of bodhisatvan with a meaning different from bodhisattva. The double or single t makes a semantic difference possible which is not the case with tatva / tattva or karma / karmma. But I agree, not being a pucka Buddhologist, that I could not care less whether bodhisattva is a bodhisatva or a bodhisatta which is actually perhaps a bodhisatvan. The socio-religious meanings of the term can be understood from the way the term is used in various Buddhist texts. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Stella Sandahl Verzonden: dinsdag 23 december 2008 13:07 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels At last something sensible in the double t debate! Thanks! Stella Sandahl -- University of Toronto On 22-Dec-08, at 10:21 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > Surely the alternation bodhisatva/bodhisattva in manuscript > transmission has now been more or less explained. > > Gemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels is unproblematic > and no reader is fazed by karmma being written in place of karma. > Degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels has therefore > also long been assumed to be unproblematic by many transmitters of > Sanskrit texts. For many a scribe, there is simply no meaningful > difference between sattva and satva (even if a grammarian might > baulk at writing the second). Reading one, a scribe may happen to > `copy' the other. Many editors therefore pass over this sort of > variation in silence on the grounds that there is no point > differentiating what transmitters of the text have clearly regarded > as functionally identical. > > Michael Slouber has helpfully pointed out the parallel case of > tattva/tatva. But it is perhaps worth considering also such > examples as v.rttyaa (instrumental singular of v.rtti): some > transmitters may in the same text write v.rtti with a doubled t, > but v.rtyaa with a single one. Noone is likely to entertain > speculations about this difference reflecting different notions of > etymology. > > Conclusion: it seems unlikely that anything can be useful known > about the history of the word bodhisattva/bodhisatva from the way > it is written in manuscripts. > > Dominic Goodall > Pondicherry Centre, > Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (French School of Asian Studies) > > On 23 Dec 2008, at 02:47, victor van Bijlert wrote: > >> But then again in Bengali script the difference would be very >> noticeable. >> Moreover, if this orthography also occurs in manuscripts from >> Central Asia >> that are not written in Nagari, the orthography still needs to be >> explained. >> Victor >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Allen W >> Thrasher >> Verzonden: maandag 22 december 2008 20:44 >> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Onderwerp: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >> >> Frequently Nagari t's are written starting with a horizontal, with >> the >> result that t and tt can look virtually identical. >> >> Allen >> >> >> >> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >> Senior Reference Librarian >> Team Coordinator >> South Asia Team, Asian Division >> Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 >> 101 Independence Ave., S.E. >> Washington, DC 20540-4810 >> tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov >> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the >> Library of >> Congress. From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Tue Dec 23 12:51:43 2008 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 08 13:51:43 +0100 Subject: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels In-Reply-To: <1B2F69CCEF844D918A2638A96331EFBE@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227084321.23782.17229681225914832289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominic's message should have made it clear that the actual spelling of the word bodhisattva/bodhisatva in manuscripts does not give any hints of the etymology or the history of the word bodhisatta/bodhisattva/bodhisatva. Roland Steiner Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Seminar f?r Indologie From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Tue Dec 23 14:24:17 2008 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 08 15:24:17 +0100 Subject: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084326.23782.9755777497200082046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stella, I will repost the original questions posed by Allen down here, for I am certain the scribes amongst us have forgotten them in the heat of philology: 'The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have done so before him. 1. Does this mean never? 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently disqualified from nirvana? 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, and so though each will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm not sure this makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) 4. Or do new sentient beings somehow get started, replacing the ones that have entered into nirvana? (I can't remember any S.Asian source that says new sentient beings come into existence, except (according to B. L. Atreya somewhere, the YogavAsiSTHa). 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? Allen' I would like to suggest that the doctrine of the Bodhisattva postponing his own final Nirvana, does not sound familiar to me from any Indian Mahayana Sutras. Here the more knowledgeable Buddhologists could help. I am under the impression such a doctrine did not exist. In the relatively old Mahayana sutras like the Ashtasahasrika, the Lotus Sutra, the Diamond Sutra, the Sukhavati-vyuha Sutra, the Vimalakirti-nirdesha Sutra, I did not find it. I am rather under the impression a Bodhisattva is almost equal to a Buddha, even a cosmis Buddha of the stature of Amitabha. The Bodhisattva takes a vow to 'Nirvanise'in final Nirvana all living beings in the universe. This vow is found among others in the Diamond Sutra, chapter 3 and 17a and the Ashtasahasrika page 10 of the Vaidya edition. Note that the Ashtasahasrika belongs to the earlier phase of Mahayana. The simile of the endlessness of space is for instance worked out in some detail by Gaudapada who was in all likelihood both a Vijnanavadin and an Advaitin. The references to Gaudapada's texts are: in book 4.1 Gaudapada compares the knowledge of the Buddha to space. The space simile occurs in book 3.3-12. This simile explains in a way that the number of beings in reality never exceeds the limits of the universe. In Gaudapada the consciousness of the Self is compared to space. But this simile probably was first worked out in the Ashtasahasrika. In the Ashtasahasrika the simile of space is used throughout to describe the depth of the Prajna-paramita (Vaidya, p 96) or the nature of Nirvana (Vaidya, p 135, middle para). The online Sanskrit text of the Ashtasahasrika could help in this case to locate all dozens of relevant passages by typing in 'akasha'. One could do the same with the online translation of Conze. Here is a link to the online Sanskrit texts: http://www.uwest.edu/sanskritcanon/ Conze's translation of the same in pdf format: http://www.empty-universe.com/prajnaparamita/perfectionofwisdom.pdf The thing to remember is that the prajna-paramita sutras teach that a bodhisattva should not entertain any thought of a being (Diamond Sutra 3) nor of a thing nor of a no-thing (Diamond Sutra 6). Moreover, Buddha has not taught anything (Diamond Sutra 7, 21), nor is he recognisable through outer signs (Diamond Sutra 20). Nor did the Buddha reach anything like enlightenment (Diamond Sutra 22-23). I hope you enloy reading the Prajna-paramita Sutras and have a good Christmas. Victor -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Stella Sandahl Verzonden: dinsdag 23 december 2008 13:52 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels Dear Victor, Point taken. But can someone now answer Allen's initial questions which have been overlooked in the double t debate? Happy New Year to all! Stella -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 23-Dec-08, at 7:22 AM, victor van Bijlert wrote: > I do not think the earlier posters were not making sense. For the > significant difference between bodhisattva / bodhisatva and the other > examples is that Buddhist Sanskrit has a tendency to invariably have > meanings slightly different from 'normal' Sanskrit, also depending > on the > context. This is part of the socio-religious rhetoric of Indian > sects in > their debates. A good point to my mind is the very Buddhist advaya > and the > terribly Brahmanical advaita. > > If the Sanskrit bodhisattva / bodhisatva is a kind of translation from > Prakrit / Pali bodhisatta, the latter could have had the meaning of > bodhisatvan with a meaning different from bodhisattva. The double > or single > t makes a semantic difference possible which is not the case with > tatva / > tattva or karma / karmma. > > But I agree, not being a pucka Buddhologist, that I could not care > less > whether bodhisattva is a bodhisatva or a bodhisatta which is actually > perhaps a bodhisatvan. The socio-religious meanings of the term can be > understood from the way the term is used in various Buddhist texts. > Victor van Bijlert > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Stella Sandahl > Verzonden: dinsdag 23 december 2008 13:07 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with > semi-vowels > > At last something sensible in the double t debate! Thanks! > Stella Sandahl > -- > University of Toronto > > > > > On 22-Dec-08, at 10:21 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > >> Surely the alternation bodhisatva/bodhisattva in manuscript >> transmission has now been more or less explained. >> >> Gemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels is unproblematic >> and no reader is fazed by karmma being written in place of karma. >> Degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels has therefore >> also long been assumed to be unproblematic by many transmitters of >> Sanskrit texts. For many a scribe, there is simply no meaningful >> difference between sattva and satva (even if a grammarian might >> baulk at writing the second). Reading one, a scribe may happen to >> `copy' the other. Many editors therefore pass over this sort of >> variation in silence on the grounds that there is no point >> differentiating what transmitters of the text have clearly regarded >> as functionally identical. >> >> Michael Slouber has helpfully pointed out the parallel case of >> tattva/tatva. But it is perhaps worth considering also such >> examples as v.rttyaa (instrumental singular of v.rtti): some >> transmitters may in the same text write v.rtti with a doubled t, >> but v.rtyaa with a single one. Noone is likely to entertain >> speculations about this difference reflecting different notions of >> etymology. >> >> Conclusion: it seems unlikely that anything can be useful known >> about the history of the word bodhisattva/bodhisatva from the way >> it is written in manuscripts. >> >> Dominic Goodall >> Pondicherry Centre, >> Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (French School of Asian Studies) >> >> On 23 Dec 2008, at 02:47, victor van Bijlert wrote: >> >>> But then again in Bengali script the difference would be very >>> noticeable. >>> Moreover, if this orthography also occurs in manuscripts from >>> Central Asia >>> that are not written in Nagari, the orthography still needs to be >>> explained. >>> Victor >>> >>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >>> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Allen W >>> Thrasher >>> Verzonden: maandag 22 december 2008 20:44 >>> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> Onderwerp: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >>> >>> Frequently Nagari t's are written starting with a horizontal, with >>> the >>> result that t and tt can look virtually identical. >>> >>> Allen >>> >>> >>> >>> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >>> Senior Reference Librarian >>> Team Coordinator >>> South Asia Team, Asian Division >>> Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 >>> 101 Independence Ave., S.E. >>> Washington, DC 20540-4810 >>> tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov >>> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the >>> Library of >>> Congress. From kengo.harimoto at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Tue Dec 23 14:31:12 2008 From: kengo.harimoto at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Kengo Harimoto) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 08 15:31:12 +0100 Subject: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels In-Reply-To: <17A58BB0-D3AA-40E4-BBDB-7D38C9009832@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227084329.23782.10740870843619058963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Adding to Dominic's comment, P??ini has rules regarding gemination, some of them as options in 8.4.46 ff. So, not all of the variations (in pronunciation and in orthography) that involve geminations are ungrammatical. I think most of them are in fact P??inian acceptable. This particular one, V+ttva and V+tva, is optionally allowed by 8.4.47. Prof. Cardona had an article on nasals that explored various pronunciation options adopted by Vedic Pr?ti??khyas. Is it published? There, if I remember correctly, opinions of some teachers that prohibit certain geminations were mentioned. Prohibition of ttva was one of them. Some copyists are very strict about which options they use in writing: two Malayalam manuscripts I used have: - t[y/v]a instead of tt[y/v]a to the point of utpatyabh?va? rather than utpattyabh?va? - although they double t after r; thus k?rtyate rather than k?rttyate Other copyists seem more liberal. I no more pay attention, which may be not a good practice, whether in a particular manuscript it is sattva or satva if the manuscript comes from the North. I think it's rather common to see both sattva and satva in a manuscripts. So, my point is to emphasize Dominic's conclusion: > it seems unlikely that anything can be useful known about the > history of the word bodhisattva/bodhisatva from the way it is > written in manuscripts. Even according to P??ini, bodhisattva and bodhisatva can be the same thing. -- kengo harimoto From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Tue Dec 23 15:15:42 2008 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 08 16:15:42 +0100 Subject: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084331.23782.17716422879243708064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for a useful comment. I was merely trying to think why Buddhologists might make much out of the spelling bodhisattva / bodhisatva as found in manuscripts. But I am convinced the point is not too important, seeing that also in other manuscripts such spelling-variants occur that do not affect the meaning. But is was precisely the concern that the meaning would be affected if the bodhisattva was really a bodhisatva that engendered the philological subdebate. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Kengo Harimoto Verzonden: dinsdag 23 december 2008 15:31 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels Adding to Dominic's comment, P??ini has rules regarding gemination, some of them as options in 8.4.46 ff. So, not all of the variations (in pronunciation and in orthography) that involve geminations are ungrammatical. I think most of them are in fact P??inian acceptable. This particular one, V+ttva and V+tva, is optionally allowed by 8.4.47. Prof. Cardona had an article on nasals that explored various pronunciation options adopted by Vedic Pr?ti??khyas. Is it published? There, if I remember correctly, opinions of some teachers that prohibit certain geminations were mentioned. Prohibition of ttva was one of them. Some copyists are very strict about which options they use in writing: two Malayalam manuscripts I used have: - t[y/v]a instead of tt[y/v]a to the point of utpatyabh?va? rather than utpattyabh?va? - although they double t after r; thus k?rtyate rather than k?rttyate Other copyists seem more liberal. I no more pay attention, which may be not a good practice, whether in a particular manuscript it is sattva or satva if the manuscript comes from the North. I think it's rather common to see both sattva and satva in a manuscripts. So, my point is to emphasize Dominic's conclusion: > it seems unlikely that anything can be useful known about the > history of the word bodhisattva/bodhisatva from the way it is > written in manuscripts. Even according to P??ini, bodhisattva and bodhisatva can be the same thing. -- kengo harimoto= From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Dec 23 17:37:12 2008 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 08 23:07:12 +0530 Subject: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084334.23782.15130288975574526469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The rule speaks of optional gemination not of dropping onr from a?pair when it is part of the etymology DB --- On Tue, 23/12/08, Kengo Harimoto wrote: From: Kengo Harimoto Subject: Re: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 23 December, 2008, 8:01 PM Adding to Dominic's comment, P??ini has rules regarding gemination, some of them as options in 8.4.46 ff. So, not all of the variations (in pronunciation and in orthography) that involve geminations are ungrammatical. I think most of them are in fact P??inian acceptable. This particular one, V+ttva and V+tva, is optionally allowed by 8.4.47. Prof. Cardona had an article on nasals that explored various pronunciation options adopted by Vedic Pr?ti??khyas. Is it published? There, if I remember correctly, opinions of some teachers that prohibit certain geminations were mentioned. Prohibition of ttva was one of them. Some copyists are very strict about which options they use in writing: two Malayalam manuscripts I used have: - t[y/v]a instead of tt[y/v]a to the point of utpatyabh?va? rather than utpattyabh?va? - although they double t after r; thus k?rtyate rather than k?rttyate Other copyists seem more liberal. I no more pay attention, which may be not a good practice, whether in a particular manuscript it is sattva or satva if the manuscript comes from the North. I think it's rather common to see both sattva and satva in a manuscripts. So, my point is to emphasize Dominic's conclusion: > it seems unlikely that anything can be useful known about the history of the word bodhisattva/bodhisatva from the way it is written in manuscripts. Even according to P??ini, bodhisattva and bodhisatva can be the same thing. --kengo harimoto Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Wed Dec 24 01:50:33 2008 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 08 07:20:33 +0530 Subject: bodhisattva/bodhisatva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227084337.23782.13649669049761044001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, In writing Sanskrit even now the spelling -ttva is not implemented with consistency.Similar is the case of using anusvara and makara before svara. Regards K.Maheswaran Nair Trivandrum Quoting "Acri, A." : > On Dec 21, 2008, at 4:13 AM, Michael Slouber wrote: > > >> It should be noted that this type of degemination is not at all >> limited to Bauddha manuscripts. >> It is the norm for words like "tattva" to be spelled "tatva" in >> almost every "Saiva manuscript I have seen, and at least one >> Naa.taka. >> Most of these are from Nepal. Perhaps someone with broader >> experience can comment if it reaches to other genres and regions as >> well. >> > > > This is also the case in the totality of the Old Javanese/Sanskrit > manuscripts (mostly containing "Saiva texts) that i have read. > > Perhaps the question might be put in this way: is there any manuscript > tradition, within or without the Subcontinent, in which the spelling > -ttva is implemented with consistency? > > Andrea Acri > Kern Institute / Leiden Insititute for Area Studies > Leiden University > > > >> >> >> >> On Dec 20, 2008, at 8:31 PM, JOHN HUNTINGTON wrote: >> >> >>> My son, Eric R. Huntington, is working on some Newar Sanskrit >>> Manuscripts that are vidhi for the Vajradhatu mandala. TheY range >>> fro 16th to 19th century and are all fairly good Newar Sanskrit. >>> In them "bodhisattva" is 'usually' (Eric's code for he is not 100% >>> certain) with one t. He doesn't remember any with two t's >>> >>> >>> I would also point out that the mantras for Vajrasattva in the >>> sources that I have looked into are always one t, (e.g., OM VAJRA >>> SA TVA HUM as constructed in Tibetan script.) >>> >>> >>> As we are on a family holiday we are both away from our resources >>> until January, so cannot carry this any farther at this time. >>> >>> >>> What about in Pala Manuscripts? >>> >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Dipak Bhattacharya >>> Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:04 am >>> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> >>> >>>> 20 12 08 >>>> >>>> >>>> Has the reading bodhisattva been found in any ms that is not a >>>> copy made by a modern scholar? >>>> >>> with the status of Bodhisattva and the term contains 'tt' >>>> there.> >>>> Where is Jinendrabuddhi so referred to? Was the ms-reading checked? >>>> These require clarification. >>>> DB >>>> >>>> --- On Sat, 20/12/08, girish jha wrote: >>>> >>>> From: girish jha >>>> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >>>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>>> Date: Saturday, 20 December, 2008, 7:18 AM >>>> >>>> Dear Mr Bhattacharya, >>>> The Sanskrit word Bodhisattva is accepted by Buddhists also in >>>> BuddhistSanskrit and is not a hybrid one. >>>> The derivation of bodhi and sattva: >>>> >>> of Sam?dhi. >>>> Sato bh?vah sattvam.Sattvam dravye gu?e cite vyavas?yasvabh?vayo? >>>> One who has strongly resolved for bodhi is bodhisattva..There >>>> may be some >>>> copyist?s >>>> mistakes in manuscripts.The author of Nyasa commentry on Kasika,too,is >>>> mentioned with the status of Bodhisattva and the term contains 'tt' >>>> there. >>>> Regards, >>>> Sincerely >>>> GIRISH K. JHA >>>> SANSKRIT,PATNA UNIV.INDIA >>>> >>>> >>>> --- On Thu, 12/18/08, Dipak Bhattacharya >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Dipak Bhattacharya >>>> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >>>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>>> Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 3:25 AM >>>> >>>> Dear Victor, >>>> Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the >>>> manuscripts i >>>> have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has given a >>>> thought to if the latter is not incorrect? DB >>>> >>>> --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> From: victor van Bijlert >>>> Subject: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow >>>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>>> Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 2:26 PM >>>> >>>> Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's >>>> questionscould be posed from the point of view of a recent >>>> convert to Buddhism who >>>> finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more >>>> sociologicalapproach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily >>>> explain these matters. It is >>>> perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these >>>> questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in >>>> reality is not >>>> there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. >>>> The latter may >>>> be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This >>>> means that >>>> the ansers to these questions would be manifold. >>>> >>>> I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the >>>> finer points >>>> of Buddhist doctrine. >>>> >>>> Victor van Bijlert >>>> >>>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >>>> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus >>>> Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 >>>> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>>> Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow >>>> >>>> Allen, >>>> >>>> Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your >>>> questions (you've >>>> already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the- >>>> literature type >>>> answer? These are not necessarily the same. >>>> >>>> First, there have been several discussions over the last couple >>>> of decades >>>> between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h- >>>> buddhism,very little in actual print) over the soundness of the >>>> assertion that: >>>> >>>> The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other >>>> sentient beings have done so before him. >>>> >>>> More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance >>>> of that vow. >>>> While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on >>>> Buddhism, it is >>>> far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages >>>> possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion >>>> on what >>>> those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of >>>> which this >>>> is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is >>>> not in >>>> evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it >>>> may have been >>>> a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere >>>> speculation and >>>> one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking >>>> gun to settle >>>> the matter). >>>> >>>> Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of >>>> delaying one's >>>> own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already >>>> attained it (what >>>> Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly >>>> invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that >>>> bodhisattvas,unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the >>>> sake of others, is present >>>> in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting >>>> everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti >>>> Sutra (though >>>> how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly >>>> discussed in >>>> Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, >>>> explainsthat >>>> Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and >>>> so, out of >>>> fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has >>>> overcome such >>>> fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to >>>> assist other >>>> sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is >>>> interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last >>>> sentient being >>>> has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha >>>> Maitreya'sjob, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven >>>> and will be reborn as >>>> a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the >>>> bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even >>>> suggeststhat the amount of time of the delay may vary with the >>>> degree of the >>>> bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely >>>> avoids the >>>> dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing >>>> Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments >>>> (this text is >>>> also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). >>>> >>>> In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, >>>> enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two >>>> subsequent bhumis >>>> in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some >>>> will also >>>> posit >>>> kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some >>>> bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help >>>> others. >>>> The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly >>>> in any >>>> detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has >>>> enteredparinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent >>>> working for the benefit >>>> of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is >>>> he still >>>> around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus >>>> Sutra, one of the >>>> earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of >>>> Buddha, in which >>>> "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with >>>> "Sakyamuni, but is a >>>> cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. >>>> That idea >>>> influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect >>>> ways (for >>>> instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). >>>> So, if >>>> post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with sentient >>>> beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, >>>> based on a >>>> misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with >>>> buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once- >>>> returner, a >>>> nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off >>>> being born, >>>> since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes >>>> (once born >>>> in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non- >>>> returner,etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the >>>> Lotus track, >>>> sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to >>>> the Buddhist >>>> dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the >>>> Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while >>>> a Buddha >>>> that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of >>>> annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses >>>> to say >>>> whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). >>>> >>>> To address your questions more directly: >>>> >>>> 1. Does this mean never? >>>> >>>> Why be such a pessimist? >>>> >>>> 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently >>>> disqualified from >>>> nirvana? >>>> >>>> There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings >>>> possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full >>>> awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my >>>> reading of those >>>> debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika >>>> would be some >>>> continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by >>>> opponentsof the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of >>>> holding that position. >>>> An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that >>>> habit may >>>> continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. >>>> >>>> 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, >>>> and so though each >>>> will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm >>>> not sure this >>>> makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) >>>> >>>> This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; >>>> there are >>>> lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). >>>> Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient >>>> beings that >>>> recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings >>>> are added >>>> and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like >>>> Hindus, many >>>> Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire >>>> pluriverse comes >>>> into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of >>>> characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of >>>> liberation, so >>>> this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in >>>> certain moods, >>>> Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. >>>> >>>> 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? >>>> >>>> See above. >>>> >>>> Dan Lusthaus >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Add more friends to your >>>> messenger and enjoy! Go to >>>> http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Add more friends to your >>>> messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >>>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 766698150) is spam: >>>> Spam: >>>> https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836eNot >>>> spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836e >>>> Forget vote: >>>> https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836e---- >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * >>> >>> John C. Huntington, Professor >>> (Buddhist art and Practice Methodologies) >>> The Department of the History of Art >>> The Ohio State University >>> >> >> > > > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 4:13 AM, Michael Slouber wrote: > >> It should be noted that this type of degemination is not at all >> limited to Bauddha manuscripts. >> It is the norm for words like "tattva" to be spelled "tatva" in >> almost every "Saiva manuscript I have seen, and at least one >> Naa.taka. >> Most of these are from Nepal. Perhaps someone with broader >> experience can comment if it reaches to other genres and regions as >> well. >> >> >> Michael Slouber >> PhD Candidate >> South and Southeast Asian Studies >> UC Berkeley >> >> >> >> On Dec 20, 2008, at 8:31 PM, JOHN HUNTINGTON wrote: >> >>> My son, Eric R. Huntington, is working on some Newar Sanskrit >>> Manuscripts that are vidhi for the Vajradhatu mandala. TheY range >>> fro 16th to 19th century and are all fairly good Newar Sanskrit. >>> In them "bodhisattva" is 'usually' (Eric's code for he is not 100% >>> certain) with one t. He doesn't remember any with two t's >>> >>> >>> I would also point out that the mantras for Vajrasattva in the >>> sources that I have looked into are always one t, (e.g., OM VAJRA >>> SA TVA HUM as constructed in Tibetan script.) >>> >>> >>> As we are on a family holiday we are both away from our resources >>> until January, so cannot carry this any farther at this time. >>> >>> >>> What about in Pala Manuscripts? >>> >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Dipak Bhattacharya >>> Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:04 am >>> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>> >>>> 20 12 08 >>>> >>>> >>>> Has the reading bodhisattva been found in any ms that is not a >>>> copy made by a modern scholar? >>>> >>> with the status of Bodhisattva and the term contains 'tt' >>>> there.> >>>> Where is Jinendrabuddhi so referred to? Was the ms-reading checked? >>>> These require clarification. >>>> DB >>>> >>>> --- On Sat, 20/12/08, girish jha wrote: >>>> >>>> From: girish jha >>>> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >>>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>>> Date: Saturday, 20 December, 2008, 7:18 AM >>>> >>>> Dear Mr Bhattacharya, >>>> The Sanskrit word Bodhisattva is accepted by Buddhists also in >>>> BuddhistSanskrit and is not a hybrid one. >>>> The derivation of bodhi and sattva: >>>> >>> of Sam?dhi. >>>> Sato bh?vah sattvam.Sattvam dravye gu?e cite vyavas?yasvabh?vayo? >>>> One who has strongly resolved for bodhi is bodhisattva..There >>>> may be some >>>> copyist?s >>>> mistakes in manuscripts.The author of Nyasa commentry on Kasika,too,is >>>> mentioned with the status of Bodhisattva and the term contains 'tt' >>>> there. >>>> Regards, >>>> Sincerely >>>> GIRISH K. JHA >>>> SANSKRIT,PATNA UNIV.INDIA >>>> >>>> >>>> --- On Thu, 12/18/08, Dipak Bhattacharya >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Dipak Bhattacharya >>>> Subject: Re: bodhisattva/bodhisatva >>>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>>> Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 3:25 AM >>>> >>>> Dear Victor, >>>> Everyone, including you, has spelt 'bodhisattva'. All the >>>> manuscripts i >>>> have consulted read 'bodhisatva'! I wonder if anyone has given a >>>> thought to if the latter is not incorrect? DB >>>> >>>> --- On Thu, 18/12/08, victor van Bijlert >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> From: victor van Bijlert >>>> Subject: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow >>>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>>> Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 2:26 PM >>>> >>>> Reading this reaction, I feel tempted to suggest that Allen's >>>> questionscould be posed from the point of view of a recent >>>> convert to Buddhism who >>>> finds certain dogmas difficult to understand as yet. In a more >>>> sociologicalapproach to Buddhist doctrine one could easily >>>> explain these matters. It is >>>> perhaps also necessary to assume as a working hypothesis that these >>>> questions presuppose a unity in Buddhist doctrine which in >>>> reality is not >>>> there. The questions are posed from a background in Mahayana. >>>> The latter may >>>> be a container-concept covering many sectarian differences. This >>>> means that >>>> the ansers to these questions would be manifold. >>>> >>>> I should warn that my replies are those of a non-expert in the >>>> finer points >>>> of Buddhist doctrine. >>>> >>>> Victor van Bijlert >>>> >>>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >>>> Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dan Lusthaus >>>> Verzonden: donderdag 18 december 2008 9:40 >>>> Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>>> Onderwerp: Re: questions on bodhisattva vow >>>> >>>> Allen, >>>> >>>> Are you requesting a doctrinal/apologetic answer to your >>>> questions (you've >>>> already received a number of those), or a survey-of-the- >>>> literature type >>>> answer? These are not necessarily the same. >>>> >>>> First, there have been several discussions over the last couple >>>> of decades >>>> between Buddhist scholars (mostly on e-lists like buddha-l and h- >>>> buddhism,very little in actual print) over the soundness of the >>>> assertion that: >>>> >>>> The bodhisattva takes a vow not to enter into Nirvana until all other >>>> sentient beings have done so before him. >>>> >>>> More specifically, the question is raised about the provenance >>>> of that vow. >>>> While ubiquitous in secondary (esp. Western) literature on >>>> Buddhism, it is >>>> far less in evidence in Buddhist texts themselves, and where passages >>>> possibly suggesting it appear, there are differences of opinion >>>> on what >>>> those passages actually mean or entail. The bodhisattva vows (of >>>> which this >>>> is typically one of four vows) appears relatively late, and is >>>> not in >>>> evidence in the earlier Mahayana literature. Some speculate it >>>> may have been >>>> a Chinese innovation (maybe 5th-6th c), though that is mere >>>> speculation and >>>> one can argue otherwise (without, as far as I know, a smoking >>>> gun to settle >>>> the matter). >>>> >>>> Some have gone as far as suggesting that the whole idea of >>>> delaying one's >>>> own nirvana until all other sentient beings have already >>>> attained it (what >>>> Bob Thurman called the cowherd model) is largely a Western scholarly >>>> invention. That's is not entirely the case. The notion that >>>> bodhisattvas,unlike Hinayana Arhats, delay parinirvana for the >>>> sake of others, is present >>>> in Mahayana literature (though delay is the not the same as awaiting >>>> everyone else. It seems to be alluded to in the Vimalakirti >>>> Sutra (though >>>> how those passages are interpreted difers), and it is clearly >>>> discussed in >>>> Asanga's Yogacarabhumi. The Tattvaartha chapter, for instance, >>>> explainsthat >>>> Hinayanists (not to be confused with Theravada) loathe life and >>>> so, out of >>>> fear, rush to seek nirvana. The well-trained bodhisattva has >>>> overcome such >>>> fears, and so delays his parinirvana in order to stay around to >>>> assist other >>>> sentient beings. Asanga does not, however, say that this delay is >>>> interminable or that a bodhisattva remains until every last >>>> sentient being >>>> has been liberated -- that would, for him, be the future Buddha >>>> Maitreya'sjob, who is awaiting that advent in the Tu.sita heaven >>>> and will be reborn as >>>> a human Buddha when the time is ripe. Asanga only suggests that the >>>> bodhisattva delays his nirvana in order to help others, and even >>>> suggeststhat the amount of time of the delay may vary with the >>>> degree of the >>>> bodhisattva's accomplishments. He, in other words, completely >>>> avoids the >>>> dilemmas you raise. Janice Willis translated this chapter (On Knowing >>>> Reality, Columbia U Press), so you can check out his arguments >>>> (this text is >>>> also available in Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan). >>>> >>>> In standard models, like the ten stages (bhuumis) of a bodhisattva, >>>> enlightenment occurs during the 8th bhumi. That leaves two >>>> subsequent bhumis >>>> in which to hone one's upayic skills at helping others. Some >>>> will also >>>> posit >>>> kind of phase, post-10th-bhumi but pre-Buddhahood, in which some >>>> bodhisattvas can linger (in deva realms, etc.) in order to help >>>> others. >>>> The more Buddhistic problem -- and one not dealt with explicitly >>>> in any >>>> detail in Buddhist texts -- is the assumption that once one has >>>> enteredparinirvana one no longer can be an effective agent >>>> working for the benefit >>>> of others. Since Buddha explicitly has attained parinirvana, is >>>> he still >>>> around in some form, available to assist others? The Lotus >>>> Sutra, one of the >>>> earlier Mahayana works, proposes an entirely new theory of >>>> Buddha, in which >>>> "Buddha" is no longer to be identified exclusively with >>>> "Sakyamuni, but is a >>>> cosmic Buddha of which "Sakyamuni was only a docetic instance. >>>> That idea >>>> influenced Mahayanic Buddhology in numerous direct and indirect >>>> ways (for >>>> instance, Amitabha Buddha eclipsing "Sakyamuni in importance). >>>> So, if >>>> post-nirvana status still allows beneficial interactions with sentient >>>> beings, this whole problematic would seem to be a red herring, >>>> based on a >>>> misconception of the nature of nirvana. This gets complicated with >>>> buddhological notions such as the stages of becoming a once- >>>> returner, a >>>> nonreturner, etc., which is one reason why Maitreya has put off >>>> being born, >>>> since he might then not be able to be "born" when the time comes >>>> (once born >>>> in the life in which he will become a Buddha, he will be a non- >>>> returner,etc.), Of course, this can be recast in terms of the >>>> Lotus track, >>>> sidestepping the problem. The danger then is that, contrary to >>>> the Buddhist >>>> dictum to avoid the extremes of eternalism and annhilationalism, the >>>> Lotus-type Buddha dances dangerously close to eternalism (while >>>> a Buddha >>>> that ceases to be once entering nirvana would be a case of >>>> annihilationalism -- and even in the Pali texts Buddha refuses >>>> to say >>>> whether a Tathagata exists or doesn't exist after death). >>>> >>>> To address your questions more directly: >>>> >>>> 1. Does this mean never? >>>> >>>> Why be such a pessimist? >>>> >>>> 2. If so, is it because some beings are permanently >>>> disqualified from >>>> nirvana? >>>> >>>> There are debates over the so-called icchantikas, incorrigible beings >>>> possibly constitutionally incapable (not "disqualified") from full >>>> awakening, lacking the requisite seeds of qualities. In my >>>> reading of those >>>> debates, however, it seems that the idea that an icchantika >>>> would be some >>>> continuous being eternally barred from nirvana is only stated by >>>> opponentsof the idea, in order to straw man accuse others of >>>> holding that position. >>>> An icchantika is incorrigable is the present life, and that >>>> habit may >>>> continue for awhile, but everyone can eventually wisen up. >>>> >>>> 3. Or is it that they are literally infinite in number, >>>> and so though each >>>> will eventually enter it, there will always be more? (I'm >>>> not sure this >>>> makes sense logically, but I'm asking what's said.) >>>> >>>> This cosmological sort of question has no definitive doctrine; >>>> there are >>>> lots of versions of Buddhist cosmology (let's call them cosmologies). >>>> Whether we are dealing with a fixed numbered set of sentient >>>> beings that >>>> recycle through different types of existences, or whether beings >>>> are added >>>> and subtracted from that set, is not usually discussed. Like >>>> Hindus, many >>>> Buddhist cosmologies posit world ages in which the entire >>>> pluriverse comes >>>> into being and goes out of being, in cycles. Is it the same cast of >>>> characters each time? That would be contrary to the notion of >>>> liberation, so >>>> this remains an open question. Actually, aside from when in >>>> certain moods, >>>> Buddhists do not seem interested in these sorts of speculations. >>>> >>>> 5. Are these or similar questions ever raised at all? >>>> >>>> See above. >>>> >>>> Dan Lusthaus >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Add more friends to your >>>> messenger and enjoy! Go to >>>> http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Add more friends to your >>>> messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >>>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 766698150) is spam: >>>> Spam: >>>> https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=s&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836eNot >>>> spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=n&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836e >>>> Forget vote: >>>> https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php?c=f&i=766698150&m=6b30ec1b836e---- >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS >>>> >>> >>> _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * _ * >>> >>> John C. Huntington, Professor >>> (Buddhist art and Practice Methodologies) >>> The Department of the History of Art >>> The Ohio State University >> From jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 24 15:50:21 2008 From: jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM (girish jha) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 08 07:50:21 -0800 Subject: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels In-Reply-To: <253210.90952.qm@web8608.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084339.23782.16091434930201399163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Bodhisattva is a Sanskrit word which is derived as bodhaye sattvam cittam yasya. =sattva.There is no scope of application of two rules here: 8.4.46 aco rah?bhy?m dve and 8.4.47 anaci ca. If we use to spell it by one ?t?,it would be fully ungrammatical in Sanskrit/Buddhist Sanskrit.There is no other rule for alternation in this context.Buddhist Poet ?ryas?ra,Grammarian Jinendrabuddhi and so many texts show ?tt? here.As to some Hybrid words there may be found some differences but not in Sanskrit ones. Regards, GIRISH K. JHA SANSKRIT,PATNA UNIV.,INDIA ? ? ? ? ? ? --- On Tue, 12/23/08, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 9:37 AM The rule speaks of optional gemination not of dropping onr from a?pair when it is part of the etymology DB --- On Tue, 23/12/08, Kengo Harimoto wrote: From: Kengo Harimoto Subject: Re: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 23 December, 2008, 8:01 PM Adding to Dominic's comment, P??ini has rules regarding gemination, some of them as options in 8.4.46 ff. So, not all of the variations (in pronunciation and in orthography) that involve geminations are ungrammatical. I think most of them are in fact P??inian acceptable. This particular one, V+ttva and V+tva, is optionally allowed by 8.4.47. Prof. Cardona had an article on nasals that explored various pronunciation options adopted by Vedic Pr?ti??khyas. Is it published? There, if I remember correctly, opinions of some teachers that prohibit certain geminations were mentioned. Prohibition of ttva was one of them. Some copyists are very strict about which options they use in writing: two Malayalam manuscripts I used have: - t[y/v]a instead of tt[y/v]a to the point of utpatyabh?va? rather than utpattyabh?va? - although they double t after r; thus k?rtyate rather than k?rttyate Other copyists seem more liberal. I no more pay attention, which may be not a good practice, whether in a particular manuscript it is sattva or satva if the manuscript comes from the North. I think it's rather common to see both sattva and satva in a manuscripts. So, my point is to emphasize Dominic's conclusion: > it seems unlikely that anything can be useful known about the history of the word bodhisattva/bodhisatva from the way it is written in manuscripts. Even according to P??ini, bodhisattva and bodhisatva can be the same thing. --kengo harimoto Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Wed Dec 24 16:12:11 2008 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 08 17:12:11 +0100 Subject: gemination/degemination of stops in ligature with semi-vowels In-Reply-To: <908584.69723.qm@web57706.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227084342.23782.9986898757660206247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Buddhist Poet ?ryas?ra, Grammarian Jinendrabuddhi and so many texts > show ?tt? here. It is not the "Buddhist Poet ?ryas?ra" but the printed editions of its Jaatakamaalaa which "show 'tt' here". The old nepalese palmleaf manuscript ("N"; probably 11th cent.) of the Jaatakamaalaa, e.g., almost exclusively reads "bodhisatva", but also, e.g., "satra" instead of "sattra" (cf. Albrecht Hanisch, Aarya;suuras Jaatakamaalaa, Philologische Untersuchungen zu den Legenden 1 bis 15, Teil 1: Einleitung, Textausgabe, Anh?nge, Register, Marburg 2005 [Indica et Tibetica 43/1], p. xlvi). Best, Roland Steiner From mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 26 12:33:47 2008 From: mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 08 18:03:47 +0530 Subject: The Manuscripts of the Tantraloka of Abhinavagupta Message-ID: <161227084345.23782.545296505355695073.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, For past more than a year I have been engaged in pursuit of finding the manuscripts of the Tantraloka of Abhinavagupta, the author of several other texts in the Kashmirian Trika domain of Saivism. I have been successful to a certain extent, but I believe that there is always a possibility of advanced exploration and I might have, owing to my immaturity, skipped some collections. In case any one of the scholars is aware of the availability of the manuscripts of the Tantraloka in India or in any other foreign country, may I request him/her to share the information with me. I am aware of the collections at the following places; Srinagar, Jammu, Varanasi, Pune, Lucknow, Trivendrum, New Delhi, Berlin and London. I would immensely grateful for this favour. Thanking you in anticipation. Best. Mrinal Kaul ************************* Mrinal Kaul # 37/4 Pandoka Colony Paloura, Jammu - 181121 Jammu & Kashmir INDIA ************************* Phone: 91-191-2532549 Cell: 91-9999488911 (Delhi) Cell: 91-9419789213 (J&K) Cell: 44-7909640319 (UK) ************************* http://mkmartand.blogspot.com http://mrinalkaul.art.officelive.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Dec 27 19:58:54 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 08 20:58:54 +0100 Subject: Fwd: CSL website resources In-Reply-To: <0CC78090-0D6F-4530-A457-3A36585B85F5@columbia.edu> Message-ID: <161227084347.23782.17755158754259729536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sheldon Pollock Date: 2008/12/25 Subject: CSL website resources Dear Dominik, I would be grateful if you would let people know about these two sites on the CLS page that will be useful to students: The first link contains a set of 17th cen. miniatures of the Rasamanjari of Bhanudatta, as well as an important unpublished 18th century commentary on his Rasatarangini: http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volume-v-38.html The second link makes available a Newari ms. of the Uttararamacarita of Bhavabhuta, one of the oldest mss. of a Sanskrit drama http://www.claysanskritlibrary.org/volume-v-66.html shelly -- PGP key:http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/pgp.html Fingerprint: 2323 94BE C35F B7E2 309F BA7C 97D3 1A77 91DA CAC0 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Dec 28 11:13:10 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 08 12:13:10 +0100 Subject: Fwd: further information Message-ID: <161227084350.23782.11006362573928454173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sheldon Pollock Date: 2008/12/28 Subject: further information Dear Dominik, I've received several emails requesting further information on the materials recently posted on the CSL website. They are described in full in the two books, but here's the saara: The Newari ms. of the *Uttarar?macarita* (1196 CE) is from the National Archives, Kathmandu, I-344 (Nepal-German Manuscript Preservation Project reel-number B 15/4; with thanks to Harunaga Isaacson). The commentary on the *Rasatara?gi??* of Bh?nudatta is the *Rasikara?jan?* of Ve?idatta Bha???c?rya (18th cen.?). It is British Library IO San 1703a (two additional copies were used in the CSL edition: Oriental Institute, Baroda, mss. nos. 839 (inc.) and 10805). The album of *Rasama?jar? *paintings was produced in Udaipur probably c. 1650 if not a little earlier. The bulk is preserved in the National Museum, New Delhi; a half-dozen additional leaves have been located in museums and private collections in Europe and the US, and are identified in the edition. With thanks to Harunaga Isaacson and Dragomir Dimitrov. shelly From kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE Sun Dec 28 12:50:00 2008 From: kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE (=?utf-8?Q?petra_kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 08 13:50:00 +0100 Subject: chinese garment (cinas=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=81=E1=B9=ADaka)?= Message-ID: <161227084352.23782.17595220051095718887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, in a Buddhist law commentary (Vajirabuddhi's Ga??hipada; terminus post quem 5th century, terminus ad quem 12th century), possibly of South Indian origin, the author compares a robe made of single woven patches with a "Chinese garment" (cinas??aka?, v.l. c?na-). Later commentators (Sinhalese) have the same description, but drop the comparison with the Chinese garment. This is the only reference for cinas??aka I came across. I would be grateful for any information about "Chinese garments" or about the method to make robes from separately woven patches. Best wishes for 2009. Petra Kieffer-P?lz ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 29 02:35:14 2008 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 08 08:05:14 +0530 Subject: help sought to indetify mandukavasanja Message-ID: <161227084354.23782.17004054776277851909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Freinds In adavaitasiddhi and other texts (Gadadharas ????????????????????? and Dinakari) a certain ????????????? (defect of senses) what exactly this mean? how does it work? I want some reference from ayurveda or othter texts. Thanks in advance -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 29 08:53:23 2008 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 08 14:23:23 +0530 Subject: help sought to indetify mandukavasanja In-Reply-To: <965fdc5f0812281835q40e1f97fk87bf3d2c10dcd104@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227084356.23782.576211447363657790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I haven't seen your passage and so can't judge, but how about simply taking the expression literally: `ointment prepared with the fat of a frog' ? Such an ointment might have the magical effect of confounding the senses. Such magical ointments involving frog's fat (of frog's marrow?) are prepared (though for rather different magical goals) in the Ma~nju"sriimuulakalpa (chapter 41 after verse 3), in the Artha"saastra (14.2), in the Tantrasadbhaavatantra (in a prose section between 23.276 and 277 in Mark Dyczkowski's e-text), in Garu.dapura.na 1.182.13, in K.semendra's Kalaavilaasa 9.12, and in chapter 3 of the Guhyasuutra of the Ni"svaasatattvasa.mhitaa (where frog's fat is to be combined with a chameleon that has been buried for a month and with sharp oil (i.e. mustard-seed oil?) and then rubbed on the legs to enable one to go great distances and return before sunset): tata.h karmma prakurviita g.rhiitvaa k.rkalaa"sakam| bhaa.n.dasthan nikhaned bhuumau mantre.naivaabhimantritam|| 3:48|| maase puur.n.ne samaaddh.rtya ma.n.duukava"sayaa yutam| ka.tutailavi<> "satadhaa caabhimantritam|| 3:49|| paadapralepa.m k.rtvaa tu gacchate pa~nca pa~nca vaa| <> punar aagacchate drutam|| 3:50|| Perhaps the source of your passage is "Slokavaarttika, spho.tavaada 43 ? SPH41ab madhura.m tiktaruupe.na "sveta.m piitatayaa tathaa SPH41cd g.rh.nanti pittado.se.na vi.saya.m bhraantacetasa.h || SPH42ab tathaa vegena dhaavanto naavyaaruu.dhaa"s ca gacchata.h SPH42cd parvataadiin vijaananti bhrame.na bhramata"s ca taan || SPH43ab ma.n.duukavasayaaktaak.saa va.m"saanuragabuddhibhi.h SPH43cd vyaktyalpatvamahattvaabhyaa.m saamaanya.m ca tadaa"srtayam || SPH44ab g.rh.nanti yadvadetaani nimittagraha.naad vinaa SPH44cd vya~njakasthamabudhvaiva vya"ngye bhraantir bhavi.syati || Dominic Goodall Pondicherry Centre, Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient ("French School of Asian Studies"), On 29 Dec 2008, at 08:05, veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: > Dear Freinds > In adavaitasiddhi and other texts (Gadadharas > ????????????????????? and > Dinakari) a certain ????????????? (defect > of senses) what exactly this mean? > how does it work? I want some reference from ayurveda or othter texts. > Thanks in advance > > -- > Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi > Head, Dept of Darshanas, > Yoganandacharya Bhavan, > Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post > Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 30 14:30:26 2008 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 08 20:00:26 +0530 Subject: help sought to indetify mandukavasanja In-Reply-To: <52F2CCAB-591D-4870-9DDA-366A7FD1A92B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227084359.23782.2380259632251889085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> yes. thanks. it seems that SL is mentioning the same. my passage is ???????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ????? ????????????? on ???????????? vol.1. p. 256. and this refers to some Nyaya texts where it is discussed in detail. This passage is more or less similar in other texts also. but I am confused that it is unlikely that a person will aply ????????? to eyes. and this context is mentioning some casual defects in senses. Hence I though that it maybe a kind of discease. On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > I haven't seen your passage and so can't judge, but how about simply taking > the expression literally: `ointment prepared with the fat of a frog' ? Such > an ointment might have the magical effect of confounding the senses. > > Such magical ointments involving frog's fat (of frog's marrow?) are > prepared (though for rather different magical goals) in the > Ma~nju"sriimuulakalpa (chapter 41 after verse 3), in the Artha"saastra > (14.2), in the Tantrasadbhaavatantra (in a prose section between 23.276 and > 277 in Mark Dyczkowski's e-text), in Garu.dapura.na1.182.13, in K.semendra's Kalaavilaasa 9.12, > and in chapter 3 of the Guhyasuutra of the Ni"svaasatattvasa.mhitaa (where > frog's fat is to be combined with a chameleon that has been buried for a > month and with sharp oil (i.e. mustard-seed oil?) and then rubbed on the > legs to enable one to go great distances and return before sunset): > > tata.h karmma prakurviita g.rhiitvaa k.rkalaa"sakam| > bhaa.n.dasthan nikhaned bhuumau mantre.naivaabhimantritam|| 3:48|| > maase puur.n.ne samaaddh.rtya ma.n.duukava"sayaa yutam| > ka.tutailavi<> "satadhaa caabhimantritam|| 3:49|| > paadapralepa.m k.rtvaa tu gacchate pa~nca pa~nca vaa| > <> punar aagacchate drutam|| 3:50|| > > > Perhaps the source of your passage is "Slokavaarttika, spho.tavaada 43 ? > > SPH41ab madhura.m tiktaruupe.na "sveta.m piitatayaa tathaa > SPH41cd g.rh.nanti pittado.se.na vi.saya.m bhraantacetasa.h || > SPH42ab tathaa vegena dhaavanto naavyaaruu.dhaa"s ca gacchata.h > SPH42cd parvataadiin vijaananti bhrame.na bhramata"s ca taan || > SPH43ab ma.n.duukavasayaaktaak.saa va.m"saanuragabuddhibhi.h > SPH43cd vyaktyalpatvamahattvaabhyaa.m saamaanya.m ca tadaa"srtayam || > SPH44ab g.rh.nanti yadvadetaani nimittagraha.naad vinaa > SPH44cd vya~njakasthamabudhvaiva vya"ngye bhraantir bhavi.syati || > > Dominic Goodall > Pondicherry Centre, > Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient ("French School of Asian Studies"), > > > > > On 29 Dec 2008, at 08:05, veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: > > Dear Freinds >> In adavaitasiddhi and other texts (Gadadharas ????????????????????? and >> Dinakari) a certain ????????????? (defect of senses) what exactly this >> mean? >> how does it work? I want some reference from ayurveda or othter texts. >> Thanks in advance >> >> -- >> Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi >> Head, Dept of Darshanas, >> Yoganandacharya Bhavan, >> Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post >> Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. >> > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026.