From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 10:43:19 2008 From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 08 10:43:19 +0000 Subject: Padmashali Message-ID: <161227083058.23782.7370461056350033998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends: Can anyone help me with the story of Padmashali, the first weavers, who draw a fibre from the lotus that arises from the navel of Vishnu, and then weave fabrics for the gods? I remember seeing an Andhra scroll may years ago. Are there any images in museums of this episode? Thank you. Harsha. Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Sat Aug 2 06:04:06 2008 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 08 06:04:06 +0000 Subject: 3 short=?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=90term?= (3 month) scholarships for Asi an PhD/Doctoral students Message-ID: <161227083060.23782.13270408867442538297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Graduate Programme for Transcultural Studies (GPTS) is part of the Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context: Shifting Asymmetries in Cultural Flows" at the University of Heidelberg (http://www.vjc.uni?hd.de/). For the winter term 2008/2009 the GPTS offers 3 short?term (3 month) scholarships for Asian PhD/Doctoral students The GPTS is looking for applicants with an excellent academic background. Selected students will take part in the regular programme of the GPTS and contribute actively to it. The scholarships are awarded for 3 months. Scholarship holders are expected to be in Heidelberg between October 2008 and February 2009. The short?term scholarship includes travel expenses to Heidelberg and back home, and a monthly stipend of 1000,? ?. Currently contributors to the Cluster work in the fields of Anthropology, Archeology, Art History,South and East Asian Studies, Assyriology, Cultural Studies, English Philology, Ethnology, Geography, History, Indology, Islamic Studies, Musicology, Philosophy, Political Science, Public Health, Religious Studies, Sinology, Sociology and others. Reflecting the interdisciplinary approach of the Cluster, the GSTS invites Asian doctoral students from these as well as other disciplines from the humanities and social sciences to apply. Candidates submit their applications including a letter of intention (400 words maximum), a CV, and a project proposal (1000 words) related to the major themes and topics of the Cluster to the online application system (https://www.w1system08.de/vjc/intern/start_start_for.php). Electronic submission of the application is mandatory. Deadline for application is August 31st, 2008. For further details of the GPTS see http://www.vjc.uni?hd.de/graduate.htm From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Aug 2 08:26:24 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 08 09:26:24 +0100 Subject: India resources. (fwd) Message-ID: <161227083062.23782.12119380513193209756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a quasi-commercial project, but has partnership backing from UNESCO too, so I am forwarding this information here. I have visited the Invis company in Trivandrum, and they are doing interesting work on promoting and publicizing popular aspects Indian culture. Best, Dominik ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:01:37 +0530 From: Hari M.R. Subject: India resources. Dear Sir, Kindly recall our discussion regarding the recomendation of www.indiavideo.org to indiology group. We have added more content to our website like monuments etc. We have also added a text session which covers Yoga, Ayurveda, Panchakarma etc., which we continuously enrich by adding more topics. Please visit http://www.indiavideo.org/text/ and let us know whether there is any chance to link the site. with regards Hari -- M.R.Hari Managing Director Invis Multimedia Pvt Ltd www.invismultimedia.com www.indiavideo.org From ashok.aklujkar at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 3 14:01:40 2008 From: ashok.aklujkar at GMAIL.COM (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 08 07:01:40 -0700 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration In-Reply-To: <66E85B0F-C4B1-4917-BBA7-E14A488C9AAC@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <161227083067.23782.567432322357446277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Michael, Thanks for the clarification. Enjoyed your wit. Glad to note that honesty continues to be important at my Alma Mater. In the spirit of your note and on the growing pattern illustrated by "Newton-Bhaaskara," "Einstein-Bose" etc. (or their reversals), may I suggest thaat Behaghel's law should be referred to as "Paa.nini-Behaghel's law"? See Paa.nini 2.2.34 (alpaactaram). Even your "metrically shorter" is anticipated in a Vaarttika to this rule (laghv-ak.sara.m puurvam). Sorry for not following Kyoto-Harvard in the above, although I have very fond memories of both places. Best. ashok From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Aug 3 13:37:31 2008 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 08 09:37:31 -0400 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration Message-ID: <161227083064.23782.3767923872755828470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, it is Summer and the weekend now, so a lazy note of correction: Colleagues have been referring, since 1990, to our 7-bit transliteration for Sanskrit as Harvard-Kyoto (a A, i, I ..., etc.). But the laws of language do not trump the (perceived) pre-eminence of Harvard. In compounds, the shorter member precedes the longer one. This is Behaghel's 19th century 'law of growing members' (Gesetz der wachsenden Glieder). Here we have a problem as both Kyoto and Harvard have two syllables. (Something like the erstwhile Baltimore-Washington or Washington- Baltimore airport) However, as Kyoto is metrically shorter (kyoo-to, 2+ 1) than Harvard (har-vard, 2+ 2), and thus also has less letters, Kyoto takes precedence. In addition, the system was devised at Kyoto in 1990. In short, call it the "Kyoto-Harvard" system! To be honest, it was based, to a large degree, on that created by Andrea van Arkel at Leiden in 1984, when our department was the first there to use a PC (together with Mathematics) for the input of the Paippalada Samhita of the Atharvaveda. Have a good Summer! Michael Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU Sun Aug 3 19:18:08 2008 From: rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Rosane Rocher) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 08 15:18:08 -0400 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083073.23782.1995545125768091929.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I recall an early article by Richard Salomon titled "An ancient diplomatic dispute," or something to that effect, which studies the dire consequences of contravening to this Sanskrit (and Indo-European) "law." Sorry I can't give an exact reference at this time. I am up in the mountains, and my collection of offprints is in town. Rich is also out of station at the moment. Rosane Rocher G?rard Huet wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I was very interested to learn about Behaghel's law. I presume it is a > general statement about the Indo-European family of > languages, which may be more or less verified for the various > languages. Concerning Sanskrit, thanks to Ashok for providing the > reference, indeed justifying calling it this "Paa.nini-Behaghel" law. > It is intriguing whether this "law" is merely a standardized > rhetorical device, or whether it is related to some information > theoretic notion such as Huffman coding > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huffman_coding) since it is likely that > shorter words are more frequent than longer ones. > Some relation with sandhi-splitting ease could also exist (specially > in light of Paa.nini 2.2.32 and 33). > > Of course the law concerns only copulative compounds (dvandva). The > problem arises when listing several authors of a paper. > The usual rule (of Western academics) is that authors are given in > alphabetical order, only in case of balanced authorship. > Otherwise the authors are put in decreasing order of their respective > contribution, and this is a fairer law than any syntactic > one. > > Actually, vaarttikas recommend the fair law: first should be come the > notion worthy of most respect, like in maatapitarau. > And of course braahma.nak.satriyavi.t"suudraa.h - br?hmans should > always go first! > > I hope you do not have problems with my transliteration scheme. I call > it VH encoding. Velthuis is of course the primary author. > I merely restrict his code to lower case letters, using aa and not A > etc. It would be unfair to call this the HV encoding because > of some obscure IE law ... > > Cheers > GH > > Le 3 ao?t 08 ? 16:01, Ashok Aklujkar a ?crit : > >> Dear Michael, >> >> Thanks for the clarification. Enjoyed your wit. Glad to note that >> honesty >> continues to be important at my Alma Mater. >> >> In the spirit of your note and on the growing pattern illustrated by >> "Newton-Bhaaskara," "Einstein-Bose" etc. (or their reversals), may I >> suggest >> thaat Behaghel's law should be referred to as "Paa.nini-Behaghel's >> law"? See >> Paa.nini 2.2.34 (alpaactaram). Even your "metrically shorter" is >> anticipated >> in a Vaarttika to this rule (laghv-ak.sara.m puurvam). >> >> Sorry for not following Kyoto-Harvard in the above, although I have very >> fond memories of both places. >> >> Best. >> >> ashok >> > From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Aug 3 19:41:31 2008 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 08 15:41:31 -0400 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration In-Reply-To: <48960470.8060102@sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227083076.23782.9950461820150118976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Rocher, > an early article by Richard Salomon titled "An ancient > diplomatic dispute" the reference for this article is: Richard Salomon, 1987. An ancient Indian diplomatic dispute. In: Festschrift for Professor Ludo Rocher. Madras: Adyar Library and Research Centre, pp. 71?79. Cf. http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/65999916 http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/221607803 (Unfortunately, the book seems to be neither in the Unversity of Washington nor Harvard libraries, and as you note Rich is out of town. But I will make sure to ask and make a copy when we are both back in Seattle later this summer ? unless you return from the mountains first.) All best wishes, Stefan Baums -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU Sun Aug 3 20:55:59 2008 From: rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Rosane Rocher) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 08 16:55:59 -0400 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration In-Reply-To: <489609EB.20906@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <161227083081.23782.12247856132155759854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks. I ought to have remembered the reference to that one! :-) It is in a volume of BrahmavidyA, the Adyar Library Bulletin, and, of course, we have the book in town, where we go back soon. RR Stefan Baums wrote: > Dear Professor Rocher, > >> an early article by Richard Salomon titled "An ancient diplomatic >> dispute" > > the reference for this article is: > > Richard Salomon, 1987. An ancient Indian diplomatic dispute. > In: Festschrift for Professor Ludo Rocher. Madras: Adyar > Library and Research Centre, pp. 71?79. > > Cf. > > http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/65999916 > http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/221607803 > > (Unfortunately, the book seems to be neither in the Unversity of > Washington nor Harvard libraries, and as you note Rich is out of town. > But I will make sure to ask and make a copy when we are both back in > Seattle later this summer ? unless you return from the mountains first.) > > All best wishes, > Stefan Baums > From sanjay.kumar at MAIL.MCGILL.CA Sun Aug 3 21:00:47 2008 From: sanjay.kumar at MAIL.MCGILL.CA (Sanjay Kumar) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 08 17:00:47 -0400 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration Message-ID: <161227083084.23782.6372429682927472602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to Kaatyaayana and Patanjali as well later Sanskrit grammarians such as Jayaaditya and KaiyaTa, the order of appearance of the four varnas in copulative compound is not indicative of "the notion worthy of most respect." It rather indicates the sequence as mentioned in the Vedas (see KaiyaTa's commentary on the Vaartika "varnaanaam aanupuurvyeNa" {Panini 2.2.34}). At least the (early) grammatical tradition does not presuppose hierarchy in this context. Sanjay McGill University ________________________________ From: Indology on behalf of G?rard Huet Sent: Sun 8/3/2008 2:18 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration Dear colleagues, I was very interested to learn about Behaghel's law. I presume it is a general statement about the Indo-European family of languages, which may be more or less verified for the various languages. Concerning Sanskrit, thanks to Ashok for providing the reference, indeed justifying calling it this "Paa.nini-Behaghel" law. It is intriguing whether this "law" is merely a standardized rhetorical device, or whether it is related to some information theoretic notion such as Huffman coding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huffman_coding ) since it is likely that shorter words are more frequent than longer ones. Some relation with sandhi-splitting ease could also exist (specially in light of Paa.nini 2.2.32 and 33). Of course the law concerns only copulative compounds (dvandva). The problem arises when listing several authors of a paper. The usual rule (of Western academics) is that authors are given in alphabetical order, only in case of balanced authorship. Otherwise the authors are put in decreasing order of their respective contribution, and this is a fairer law than any syntactic one. Actually, vaarttikas recommend the fair law: first should be come the notion worthy of most respect, like in maatapitarau. And of course braahma.nak.satriyavi.t"suudraa.h - br?hmans should always go first! I hope you do not have problems with my transliteration scheme. I call it VH encoding. Velthuis is of course the primary author. I merely restrict his code to lower case letters, using aa and not A etc. It would be unfair to call this the HV encoding because of some obscure IE law ... Cheers GH Le 3 ao?t 08 ? 16:01, Ashok Aklujkar a ?crit : > Dear Michael, > > Thanks for the clarification. Enjoyed your wit. Glad to note that > honesty > continues to be important at my Alma Mater. > > In the spirit of your note and on the growing pattern illustrated by > "Newton-Bhaaskara," "Einstein-Bose" etc. (or their reversals), may I > suggest > thaat Behaghel's law should be referred to as "Paa.nini-Behaghel's > law"? See > Paa.nini 2.2.34 (alpaactaram). Even your "metrically shorter" is > anticipated > in a Vaarttika to this rule (laghv-ak.sara.m puurvam). > > Sorry for not following Kyoto-Harvard in the above, although I have > very > fond memories of both places. > > Best. > > ashok > From sanjay.kumar at MAIL.MCGILL.CA Sun Aug 3 21:03:17 2008 From: sanjay.kumar at MAIL.MCGILL.CA (Sanjay Kumar) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 08 17:03:17 -0400 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration Message-ID: <161227083086.23782.11903106657493723786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to Kaatyaayana and Patanjali and later Sanskrit grammarians such as Jayaaditya and KaiyaTa, the order of appearance of the four varnas in copulative compound is not indicative of "the notion worthy of most respect," as noted by G?rard Huet. It rather indicates the sequence as mentioned in the Vedas (see KaiyaTa's commentary on the Vaartika "varnaanaam aanupuurvyeNa" {Panini 2.2.34}). At least the (early) grammatical tradition does not presuppose hierarchy in this context. Sanjay McGill University ________________________________ From: Indology on behalf of G?rard Huet Sent: Sun 8/3/2008 2:18 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration Dear colleagues, I was very interested to learn about Behaghel's law. I presume it is a general statement about the Indo-European family of languages, which may be more or less verified for the various languages. Concerning Sanskrit, thanks to Ashok for providing the reference, indeed justifying calling it this "Paa.nini-Behaghel" law. It is intriguing whether this "law" is merely a standardized rhetorical device, or whether it is related to some information theoretic notion such as Huffman coding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huffman_coding ) since it is likely that shorter words are more frequent than longer ones. Some relation with sandhi-splitting ease could also exist (specially in light of Paa.nini 2.2.32 and 33). Of course the law concerns only copulative compounds (dvandva). The problem arises when listing several authors of a paper. The usual rule (of Western academics) is that authors are given in alphabetical order, only in case of balanced authorship. Otherwise the authors are put in decreasing order of their respective contribution, and this is a fairer law than any syntactic one. Actually, vaarttikas recommend the fair law: first should be come the notion worthy of most respect, like in maatapitarau. And of course braahma.nak.satriyavi.t"suudraa.h - br?hmans should always go first! I hope you do not have problems with my transliteration scheme. I call it VH encoding. Velthuis is of course the primary author. I merely restrict his code to lower case letters, using aa and not A etc. It would be unfair to call this the HV encoding because of some obscure IE law ... Cheers GH Le 3 ao?t 08 ? 16:01, Ashok Aklujkar a ?crit : > Dear Michael, > > Thanks for the clarification. Enjoyed your wit. Glad to note that > honesty > continues to be important at my Alma Mater. > > In the spirit of your note and on the growing pattern illustrated by > "Newton-Bhaaskara," "Einstein-Bose" etc. (or their reversals), may I > suggest > thaat Behaghel's law should be referred to as "Paa.nini-Behaghel's > law"? See > Paa.nini 2.2.34 (alpaactaram). Even your "metrically shorter" is > anticipated > in a Vaarttika to this rule (laghv-ak.sara.m puurvam). > > Sorry for not following Kyoto-Harvard in the above, although I have > very > fond memories of both places. > > Best. > > ashok > From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Aug 3 23:00:49 2008 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 08 19:00:49 -0400 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083089.23782.9803515346284193925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sanjay (below) seems to refer to the frequent Vedic compound zUdrArya- (Unicode: ??dr?rya-), where to many people's surprise, the grammarians mentioned below included, the Shudras come first. Well, for a good reason -- again that of prosody or syllable count. The Rgveda mostly has the clear, metrically indicated, trisyllabic reading [aariya] (?riya) for (KH) Arya (aarya, ?rya-), as noted already by Grassmann 1873, RV Dictionary column 185-6. In short, Panini-Behaghel's (2+1+1, 2+2+2) rule is strictly followed, against all contemporary social sensitivities: zUdra+Ariya (??dra+?riya): 2 syll + 3 syllables, or : 2+1, 2+1+1 morae. In fact, this has been noted and explained long ago by Hans Oertel : "zUdrArya", I think in ZDMG 1936; see now H.Oertel, Kleine Schriften. Heinrich Hettrich, Thomas Oberlies (eds.). Stuttgart : Franz Steiner Verlag, 1994. A nice weekend! Michael On Aug 3, 2008, at 5:00 PM, Sanjay Kumar wrote: > According to Kaatyaayana and Patanjali as well later Sanskrit > grammarians such as Jayaaditya and KaiyaTa, the order of appearance > of the four varnas in copulative compound is not indicative of "the > notion worthy of most respect." It rather indicates the sequence as > mentioned in the Vedas (see KaiyaTa's commentary on the Vaartika > "varnaanaam aanupuurvyeNa" {Panini 2.2.34}). At least the (early) > grammatical tradition does not presuppose hierarchy in this context. > > Sanjay > > McGill University > > Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR Sun Aug 3 18:18:32 2008 From: Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR (=?utf-8?Q?G=C3=A9rard_Huet?=) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 08 20:18:32 +0200 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083070.23782.15808863745491723053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I was very interested to learn about Behaghel's law. I presume it is a general statement about the Indo-European family of languages, which may be more or less verified for the various languages. Concerning Sanskrit, thanks to Ashok for providing the reference, indeed justifying calling it this "Paa.nini-Behaghel" law. It is intriguing whether this "law" is merely a standardized rhetorical device, or whether it is related to some information theoretic notion such as Huffman coding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huffman_coding ) since it is likely that shorter words are more frequent than longer ones. Some relation with sandhi-splitting ease could also exist (specially in light of Paa.nini 2.2.32 and 33). Of course the law concerns only copulative compounds (dvandva). The problem arises when listing several authors of a paper. The usual rule (of Western academics) is that authors are given in alphabetical order, only in case of balanced authorship. Otherwise the authors are put in decreasing order of their respective contribution, and this is a fairer law than any syntactic one. Actually, vaarttikas recommend the fair law: first should be come the notion worthy of most respect, like in maatapitarau. And of course braahma.nak.satriyavi.t"suudraa.h - br?hmans should always go first! I hope you do not have problems with my transliteration scheme. I call it VH encoding. Velthuis is of course the primary author. I merely restrict his code to lower case letters, using aa and not A etc. It would be unfair to call this the HV encoding because of some obscure IE law ... Cheers GH Le 3 ao?t 08 ? 16:01, Ashok Aklujkar a ?crit : > Dear Michael, > > Thanks for the clarification. Enjoyed your wit. Glad to note that > honesty > continues to be important at my Alma Mater. > > In the spirit of your note and on the growing pattern illustrated by > "Newton-Bhaaskara," "Einstein-Bose" etc. (or their reversals), may I > suggest > thaat Behaghel's law should be referred to as "Paa.nini-Behaghel's > law"? See > Paa.nini 2.2.34 (alpaactaram). Even your "metrically shorter" is > anticipated > in a Vaarttika to this rule (laghv-ak.sara.m puurvam). > > Sorry for not following Kyoto-Harvard in the above, although I have > very > fond memories of both places. > > Best. > > ashok > From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Aug 4 01:02:22 2008 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 08 21:02:22 -0400 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083094.23782.2292827556352107672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all: [As I was writing the below Mark?s email arrived, but it is maybe worth adding the additional details and examples. Mark: Did you address the issue of mora count in your book ? which I have of course, but not with me?] One might add that the principle of waxing syllables (and moras, see below) remained operative in MIA formulaic language, see e.g. pp. 15 ff. of: Oskar von Hin?ber, 1994. Untersuchungen zur M?ndlichkeit fr?her mittelindischer Texte der Buddhisten. Mainz: Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur. (Abhandlungen der geistes? und sozialwissenschaftlichen Klasse, Jahrgang 1994,Nr. 5 / Untersuchungen zur Sprachgeschichte undHandschriftenkunde des P?li, III.) who notes that in the Pali grammatical tradition it is referred to by Aggava?sa (under the name v?c?sili??hat?) and provides the following reference to another early discussion of P??ini 2.2.34 and the OIA side of the coin: W. Caland, 1931. A rhythmic law in language. Acta Orientalia 9: 59?68. Now the mora count of words like ?r(i)ya or s?r(i)ya differs of course between ?gvedic and Pali as consonant assimilation and epenthesis were based on the disyllabic OIA form and operated after the Law of Two Moras: ?rya > *arya > ayya, ariya / ayira But it appears from other examples that mora count (secondary to syllable count) remained relevant in MIA formulas. Among the examples given on pp. 15?31 of von Hin?ber?s study there are, at a glance, six cases where two adjacent member have the same syllable but a rising mora count: abhir?pa dassan?ya p?s?dika (4 + 4 + 4 s.; 5 + 6 + 6 m.) [18] dubbhikkhe dv?hitike seta??hike (3 + 4 + 4 s.; 6 + 6 + 7 m.) [20] dubbhikkha duhitika seta??ika sal?kavutta (3 + 4 + 4 + 5 s.; 5 + 4 + 6 + 7) [20] vu??hi? vir??hi? vepulla? (2 + 3 + 3 s.; 4 + 5 + 6 m.) [23] daliddo appadhano appabhogo (3 + 4 + 4 s.; 5 + 5 + 6 m.) [29] a??ho mahaddhano mah?bhogo (2 + 4 + 4 s.; 4 + 6 + 7 m.) [29] and only one counterexample (same syllable but falling mora count): attaman? pamudit? p?tisomanassaj?t? (4 + 4 + 8 s.; 6 + 5 + 13 m.) [30] The continued relevance of mora count in MIA rhythmic language is of course unsurprising seeing the rise of m?tr?chandas etc. Von Hin?ber does not seem to go into the mora side of things (unless I missed it), but surely this has been discussed elsewhere. Best wishes, Stefan Baums -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE Sun Aug 3 19:46:17 2008 From: zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 08 21:46:17 +0200 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083078.23782.815137275767948168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op Sun, 03 Aug 2008 20:18:32 +0200 schreef G?rard Huet : > I hope you do not have problems with my transliteration scheme. I call > it VH encoding. Velthuis is of course the primary author. > I merely restrict his code to lower case letters, using aa and not A > etc. It would be unfair to call this the HV encoding because > of some obscure IE law ... There's another dialect (or rather: sub-dialect) of V encoding in existence: it's the Aklujkar-Tubb (or Tubb-Aklujkar?) scheme with extensions for writing the literary Dravidian languages: ee, oo, _l, _n and _r. I suppose it ought to be called TAZ ;-) -- Tubb is monosyllabic, and Aklujkar and Zydenbos look prosodically identical, but the Z is historically clearly the latest, represents a junior, and looks best at the end of the abbreviation. Why does this exist? TAZ is used for writing a flat ASCII text which can be converted to a number of other codings (CSX+, Unicode, TeX [codes that look like \={a}, etc.], and Baraha for Kannada) using filters which I've written. (Anybody interested? Contact me off-list. You need a Python interpreter on your computer. This is standard on Mac and Linux systems, and is available free of cost for Windows.) RZ From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Aug 4 13:50:20 2008 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 08 06:50:20 -0700 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083101.23782.12904973699101743678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is perhaps worth noting that the dominant castes (and arguably highest castes) in most of South India are technically "sudra." In Sangam literature, the 4th Varna is not "sudra" but VeLLaaLar, the dominant land-owning group. Through history, the VeLLaaLars and their equivalents in other areas (e.g. Reddys and Kammas in Andhra), all considered "Sudras" by the 3-4% Brahmin population, have been the major force behind the construction of temples and even the importation of Brahmins from the north. Apparently, these "Sudras" (later sometimes called "Sat Sudras") were a dominant caste before Brahmins arrived in South India, and they maintained that position until the present. It's also worth noting that the Varna system after Vedic times was tenuous and ill-defined at best; as far as I know, no outside observer ever saw 4 (or 5) Varnas -- they did however see caste (jaati / kuTi) differentiation. George Hart On Aug 3, 2008, at 2:00 PM, Sanjay Kumar wrote: > According to Kaatyaayana and Patanjali as well later Sanskrit > grammarians such as Jayaaditya and KaiyaTa, the order of appearance > of the four varnas in copulative compound is not indicative of "the > notion worthy of most respect." It rather indicates the sequence as > mentioned in the Vedas (see KaiyaTa's commentary on the Vaartika > "varnaanaam aanupuurvyeNa" {Panini 2.2.34}). At least the (early) > grammatical tradition does not presuppose hierarchy in this context. > > Sanjay > > McGill University > > > ________________________________ > > From: Indology on behalf of G?rard Huet > Sent: Sun 8/3/2008 2:18 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration > > > > Dear colleagues, > > I was very interested to learn about Behaghel's law. I presume it is a > general statement about the Indo-European family of > languages, which may be more or less verified for the various > languages. Concerning Sanskrit, thanks to Ashok for providing the > reference, indeed justifying calling it this "Paa.nini-Behaghel" law. > It is intriguing whether this "law" is merely a standardized > rhetorical device, or whether it is related to some information > theoretic notion such as Huffman coding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huffman_coding > ) since it is likely that shorter words are more frequent than longer > ones. > Some relation with sandhi-splitting ease could also exist (specially > in light of Paa.nini 2.2.32 and 33). > > Of course the law concerns only copulative compounds (dvandva). The > problem arises when listing several authors of a paper. > The usual rule (of Western academics) is that authors are given in > alphabetical order, only in case of balanced authorship. > Otherwise the authors are put in decreasing order of their respective > contribution, and this is a fairer law than any syntactic > one. > > Actually, vaarttikas recommend the fair law: first should be come the > notion worthy of most respect, like in maatapitarau. > And of course braahma.nak.satriyavi.t"suudraa.h - br?hmans should > always go first! > > I hope you do not have problems with my transliteration scheme. I call > it VH encoding. Velthuis is of course the primary author. > I merely restrict his code to lower case letters, using aa and not A > etc. It would be unfair to call this the HV encoding because > of some obscure IE law ... > > Cheers > GH > > Le 3 ao?t 08 ? 16:01, Ashok Aklujkar a ?crit : > >> Dear Michael, >> >> Thanks for the clarification. Enjoyed your wit. Glad to note that >> honesty >> continues to be important at my Alma Mater. >> >> In the spirit of your note and on the growing pattern illustrated by >> "Newton-Bhaaskara," "Einstein-Bose" etc. (or their reversals), may I >> suggest >> thaat Behaghel's law should be referred to as "Paa.nini-Behaghel's >> law"? See >> Paa.nini 2.2.34 (alpaactaram). Even your "metrically shorter" is >> anticipated >> in a Vaarttika to this rule (laghv-ak.sara.m puurvam). >> >> Sorry for not following Kyoto-Harvard in the above, although I have >> very >> fond memories of both places. >> >> Best. >> >> ashok >> From mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU Mon Aug 4 00:43:54 2008 From: mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU (Mark Allon) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 08 10:43:54 +1000 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration In-Reply-To: <20080803230203.9EDCE2CAF08@london.ucc.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227083092.23782.8896065767120855269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, The "Waxing Syllable Principle (WSP)" is extensively applied in Buddhist canonical prose texts and in some Jaina prose texts as well. See Study 2 in my Style and Function: A Study of the Dominant Stylistic Features of the Prose Portions of Pali Canonical Sutta Texts and their Mnemonic Function. Tokyo: International Institute for Buddhist Studies, 1997. Oskar von Hin?ber also wrote about this (mentioned in my study). Regards Mark Dr Mark Allon Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies University of Sydney Brennan MacCallum Building A18 Sydney NSW 2006, Australia Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 >-----Original Message----- >From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Michael Witzel >Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 9:01 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Re: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration > >Sanjay (below) seems to refer to the frequent Vedic compound >zUdrArya- (Unicode: ??dr?rya-), where to many people's surprise, >the grammarians mentioned below included, the Shudras come first. > >Well, for a good reason -- again that of prosody or syllable count. > >The Rgveda mostly has the clear, metrically indicated, trisyllabic >reading [aariya] (?riya) for (KH) Arya (aarya, ?rya-), as noted >already by Grassmann 1873, RV Dictionary column 185-6. > >In short, Panini-Behaghel's (2+1+1, 2+2+2) rule is strictly >followed, against all contemporary social sensitivities: > >zUdra+Ariya (??dra+?riya): 2 syll + 3 syllables, or : 2+1, 2+1+1 >morae. > >In fact, this has been noted and explained long ago by Hans Oertel : >"zUdrArya", I think in ZDMG 1936; see now H.Oertel, Kleine >Schriften. Heinrich Hettrich, Thomas Oberlies (eds.). Stuttgart : >Franz Steiner Verlag, 1994. > > >A nice weekend! > >Michael > > >On Aug 3, 2008, at 5:00 PM, Sanjay Kumar wrote: > >> According to Kaatyaayana and Patanjali as well later Sanskrit >> grammarians such as Jayaaditya and KaiyaTa, the order of appearance >> of the four varnas in copulative compound is not indicative of "the >> notion worthy of most respect." It rather indicates the sequence as >> mentioned in the Vedas (see KaiyaTa's commentary on the Vaartika >> "varnaanaam aanupuurvyeNa" {Panini 2.2.34}). At least the (early) >> grammatical tradition does not presuppose hierarchy in this context. >> >> Sanjay >> >> McGill University >> >> > >Michael Witzel >witzel at fas.harvard.edu >www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm > >Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University >1 Bow Street >Cambridge MA 02138, USA > >phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 >8571; >my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Mon Aug 4 10:12:51 2008 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 08 12:12:51 +0200 Subject: Position in Modern Indian Studies, University of Copenhagen In-Reply-To: <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB057F9D8B@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227083099.23782.1257112445763574618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please see the following announcement for a position in modern Indian/South Asian Studies and kindly forward to other appropriate lists. Thank you. http://asiandynamics.ku.dk/english/vacancies/india_southasia/ Kenneth Zysk Department of Asian Studies University of Copenhagen Ph: +45 3532 8832 Leifsgade 33,5 Fax: +45 3532 8835 DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk From ashok.aklujkar at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 4 20:50:16 2008 From: ashok.aklujkar at GMAIL.COM (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 08 13:50:16 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: "Ten pomegranates" in Dharmakirti's Pramanavarttika] In-Reply-To: <48975F41.8050904@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227083108.23782.14398742900094184418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The example is almost certainly quoted from Pata;njali's Mahaabhaa.sya under Paa,nini 1.1.1 and 1.2.45 (Kielhorn edn pp 38 and 217). ashok aklujkar > From: "Christian K. Wedemeyer" > Organization: University of Chicago Divinity School > Reply-To: Indology > Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 14:57:53 -0500 > To: > Subject: [Fwd: "Ten pomegranates" in Dharmakirti's Pramanavarttika] > > Dear Friends, > > I received the following query last month, but am unable to come up with > anything to help this very worthy person with their uncertainty. > > Does any of this ring a bell to anyone else on the list? I will pass on > any replies to the person who sent the question. > > Thanks, > > Christian > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > I am writing with regard to a passing reference in Dharmak?rti's > /Pram??avarttika /to what may be a Vedic ritual. In his commentary to a > verse on the subject of /?ptav?da? /he makes the remark: "statements > like the one containing the words 'ten pomegranates'" > (/da?ad??im?div?ky?ni/)/. /A subcommentary by Kar?akagom? provides a > fuller description of the reference: ?the phrase ?ten pomegranates, > etc.? is such statements as ?ten pomegranates, six cakes, a bowl, a goat > skin, and straw (?)? (S: /da?a d??imety?di da?a d??im?ni ?adp?p?? ku??am > aj?jina? palalam ityevam ?d?ni v?ky?ni/). Still, neither writer > identifies the source or meaning of this reference. The passage is cited > as an example of statements that lack "consistency" (/asambandha//?/) or > "coherence" (/anupasa?h?ra?/). One further piece of the puzzle is a > Tibetan translation of a verse that appears in a commentary by a later > Indian Buddhist scholar named ??ntarak?ita which also mentions this "ten > pomegranates" passage. Although the exact meaning of the end of the > verse is uncertain it may contain a reference to a type of ritual called > /sparakratu /(The Tibetan contains what seems to be a transliteration of > the Sanskrit words but is probably a distortion of the correct > spelling). My best read of the line is that it says something like "the > false daughter's (? an?taduhit?) cow, [which was the object] of a > /sparakratu /ritual, died." It sounds like this list of items may appear > in some Vedic ritual that is intended to save sick cows. I have > virtually no knowledge of Vedic literature at all and cannot seem to > locate any material that even verifies the existence of this type of > ritual, much less provides any explanation of what it may involve. > > I would very much appreciate any clarification you might be willing to > offer. > > > > > > > > > -- > Christian K. Wedemeyer > Assistant Professor of the History of Religions > University of Chicago Divinity School > 1025 E 58th Street > Chicago, IL 60637 USA > http://divinity.uchicago.edu/faculty/wedemeyer.shtml > http://home.uchicago.edu/~aryadeva From wedemeyer at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Aug 4 19:57:53 2008 From: wedemeyer at UCHICAGO.EDU (Christian K. Wedemeyer) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 08 14:57:53 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: "Ten pomegranates" in Dharmakirti's Pramanavarttika] Message-ID: <161227083106.23782.3170341339814233614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends, I received the following query last month, but am unable to come up with anything to help this very worthy person with their uncertainty. Does any of this ring a bell to anyone else on the list? I will pass on any replies to the person who sent the question. Thanks, Christian -------- Original Message -------- I am writing with regard to a passing reference in Dharmak?rti's /Pram??avarttika /to what may be a Vedic ritual. In his commentary to a verse on the subject of /?ptav?da? /he makes the remark: "statements like the one containing the words 'ten pomegranates'" (/da?ad??im?div?ky?ni/)/. /A subcommentary by Kar?akagom? provides a fuller description of the reference: ?the phrase ?ten pomegranates, etc.? is such statements as ?ten pomegranates, six cakes, a bowl, a goat skin, and straw (?)? (S: /da?a d??imety?di da?a d??im?ni ?adp?p?? ku??am aj?jina? palalam ityevam ?d?ni v?ky?ni/). Still, neither writer identifies the source or meaning of this reference. The passage is cited as an example of statements that lack "consistency" (/asambandha//?/) or "coherence" (/anupasa?h?ra?/). One further piece of the puzzle is a Tibetan translation of a verse that appears in a commentary by a later Indian Buddhist scholar named ??ntarak?ita which also mentions this "ten pomegranates" passage. Although the exact meaning of the end of the verse is uncertain it may contain a reference to a type of ritual called /sparakratu /(The Tibetan contains what seems to be a transliteration of the Sanskrit words but is probably a distortion of the correct spelling). My best read of the line is that it says something like "the false daughter's (? an?taduhit?) cow, [which was the object] of a /sparakratu /ritual, died." It sounds like this list of items may appear in some Vedic ritual that is intended to save sick cows. I have virtually no knowledge of Vedic literature at all and cannot seem to locate any material that even verifies the existence of this type of ritual, much less provides any explanation of what it may involve. I would very much appreciate any clarification you might be willing to offer. -- Christian K. Wedemeyer Assistant Professor of the History of Religions University of Chicago Divinity School 1025 E 58th Street Chicago, IL 60637 USA http://divinity.uchicago.edu/faculty/wedemeyer.shtml http://home.uchicago.edu/~aryadeva From sanjay.kumar at MAIL.MCGILL.CA Mon Aug 4 21:27:03 2008 From: sanjay.kumar at MAIL.MCGILL.CA (Sanjay Kumar) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 08 17:27:03 -0400 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration Message-ID: <161227083114.23782.4297017262503995174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Witzel: Thank you for the reference to zuudraarya. I was in fact referring to what G?rard Huet had to say about the order of names of the four varnas. I quote him from his second-last email: "Actually, vaarttikas recommend the fair law: first should be come the notion worthy of most respect, like in maatapitarau. And of course braahma.nak.satriyavi.t"suudraa.h - br?hmans should always go first!" According to (secularist) grammatical tradition, "the notion of worthy of respect" applies to the first example: maataapitarau; the second example (braahma.nak.satriyavi.t"suudraa.h) simply alludes to the sequence (aanupuurvya) in which they appear in the Vedas, i.e. Rig-Veda 10.90.12. It should be noted that Sanskrit texts often follow the same sequence even outside Dvandva compound. Sanjay McGill University Canada ________________________________ From: Indology on behalf of Michael Witzel Sent: Sun 8/3/2008 7:00 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration Sanjay (below) seems to refer to the frequent Vedic compound zUdrArya- (Unicode: sudrarya-), where to many people's surprise, the grammarians mentioned below included, the Shudras come first. Well, for a good reason -- again that of prosody or syllable count. The Rgveda mostly has the clear, metrically indicated, trisyllabic reading [aariya] (ariya) for (KH) Arya (aarya, arya-), as noted already by Grassmann 1873, RV Dictionary column 185-6. In short, Panini-Behaghel's (2+1+1, 2+2+2) rule is strictly followed, against all contemporary social sensitivities: zUdra+Ariya (sudra+ariya): 2 syll + 3 syllables, or : 2+1, 2+1+1 morae. In fact, this has been noted and explained long ago by Hans Oertel : "zUdrArya", I think in ZDMG 1936; see now H.Oertel, Kleine Schriften. Heinrich Hettrich, Thomas Oberlies (eds.). Stuttgart : Franz Steiner Verlag, 1994. A nice weekend! Michael On Aug 3, 2008, at 5:00 PM, Sanjay Kumar wrote: > According to Kaatyaayana and Patanjali as well later Sanskrit > grammarians such as Jayaaditya and KaiyaTa, the order of appearance > of the four varnas in copulative compound is not indicative of "the > notion worthy of most respect." It rather indicates the sequence as > mentioned in the Vedas (see KaiyaTa's commentary on the Vaartika > "varnaanaam aanupuurvyeNa" {Panini 2.2.34}). At least the (early) > grammatical tradition does not presuppose hierarchy in this context. > > Sanjay > > McGill University > > Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Aug 4 17:11:21 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 08 18:11:21 +0100 Subject: MAURER: The Sanskrit Language: An Introductory Grammar and Reader In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083103.23782.7445601107380871519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I can report an initial positive response from Routledge about a print-on-demand paperback edition of Maurer's primer. Discussions are continuing, and final decisions and procedures have not yet been made, but things seem to be moving in the right direction. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow University College London From mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU Mon Aug 4 08:28:39 2008 From: mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU (Mark Allon) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 08 18:28:39 +1000 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration In-Reply-To: <20080804010357.685EF177DAC@sanaa.ucc.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227083097.23782.14260179467066284046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stefan, I did look at mAtrA counts but found that "mAtrA value does not does not seem to be a determining factor, for although there are examples of sequences which conform to the WSP and which also conform to a possible ?waxing mAtrA value principle? (e.g. sukha-dukkha, 2+2 syllables, 2+3 mAtrAs; kesa-massu, 2+2 syll., 3+3 mAtrAs) there are many examples which conform to the WSP but whose mAtrA values are erratic. For example, mUla-phala (2+2 syll., but 3+2 mAtrAs); lAbha-sakkAra-siloka (2+3+3 syll., but 3+5+4 mAtrAs)." (p. 194). I meant to add in my previous email that the WSP is applied to the ordering of all sequences of similar word elements in prose texts (strings of adjectives, nouns, verbs, etc.), not just to the components of dvandvas. Regards Mark Mark Allon Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies University of Sydney >[As I was writing the below Mark?s email arrived, but it is maybe >worth adding the additional details and examples. Mark: Did you >address the issue of mora count in your book ? which I have of >course, but not with me?] > >One might add that the principle of waxing syllables (and moras, >see below) remained operative in MIA formulaic language, see e.g. >pp. 15 ff. of: > > Oskar von Hin?ber, 1994. Untersuchungen zur M?ndlichkeit fr?her > mittelindischer Texte der Buddhisten. Mainz: Akademie der > Wissenschaften und der Literatur. (Abhandlungen der geistes? > und sozialwissenschaftlichen Klasse, Jahrgang 1994,Nr. 5 / > Untersuchungen zur Sprachgeschichte undHandschriftenkunde des > P?li, III.) > >who notes that in the Pali grammatical tradition it is referred to >by Aggava?sa (under the name v?c?sili??hat?) and provides the >following reference to another early discussion of P??ini 2.2.34 >and the OIA side of the coin: > > W. Caland, 1931. A rhythmic law in language. Acta Orientalia 9: > 59?68. > >Now the mora count of words like ?r(i)ya or s?r(i)ya differs of >course between ?gvedic and Pali as consonant assimilation and >epenthesis were based on the disyllabic OIA form and operated >after the Law of Two Moras: > > ?rya > *arya > ayya, ariya / ayira > >But it appears from other examples that mora count (secondary to >syllable count) remained relevant in MIA formulas. Among the >examples given on pp. 15?31 of von Hin?ber?s study there are, at a >glance, six cases where two adjacent member have the same syllable >but a rising mora count: > > abhir?pa dassan?ya p?s?dika (4 + 4 + 4 s.; 5 + 6 + 6 m.) [18] > dubbhikkhe dv?hitike seta??hike (3 + 4 + 4 s.; 6 + 6 + 7 m.) [20] > dubbhikkha duhitika seta??ika sal?kavutta (3 + 4 + 4 + 5 s.; 5 >+ 4 + 6 + 7) [20] > vu??hi? vir??hi? vepulla? (2 + 3 + 3 s.; 4 + 5 + 6 m.) [23] > daliddo appadhano appabhogo (3 + 4 + 4 s.; 5 + 5 + 6 m.) [29] > a??ho mahaddhano mah?bhogo (2 + 4 + 4 s.; 4 + 6 + 7 m.) [29] > >and only one counterexample (same syllable but falling mora count): > > attaman? pamudit? p?tisomanassaj?t? (4 + 4 + 8 s.; 6 + 5 + 13 >m.) [30] > >The continued relevance of mora count in MIA rhythmic language is >of course unsurprising seeing the rise of m?tr?chandas etc. Von >Hin?ber does not seem to go into the mora side of things (unless I >missed it), but surely this has been discussed elsewhere. > >Best wishes, >Stefan Baums > >-- >Stefan Baums >Asian Languages and Literature >University of Washington From rt2036 at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Aug 5 02:54:11 2008 From: rt2036 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Roy Tsohar) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 08 22:54:11 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: "Ten pomegranates" in Dharmakirti's Pramanavarttika] In-Reply-To: <48976E75.2070208@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227083117.23782.8850524744479737175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This example is also cited by Abhinavagupta in his Locana to the Dhvanyaa.loka 1.4, and used for exemplifying the mere grouping of words without a syntactical connection (anvaya). In this respect see note 10, page 93 in Ingalls, Masson, and Patwardhan. The Dhvany*Aloka of *Anandavardhana with the Locana of Abhinavagupta, Harvard Oriental Series ;. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1990. Hope it might be helpful, Best, Roy Tzohar Quoting Birgit Kellner : > As it luckily happens to lie on my desk - Vincent Eltschinger's "Penser > l'autorit? des ?critures. La Pol?mique de Dharmak?rti contre la notion > brahmanique orthodoxe d'un Veda sans auteur. Autour de Pram??av?rttika > I.213-268 et Svav?tti" (Vienna 2007: ?sterreichische Akademie der > Wissenschaften) contains a footnote on the passage in question with > further references: p. 102, n. 106. According to Eltschinger, the > example is widespread and can also be found at ?abarabh??ya on > M?ma?sas?tra 1.1.5, Ny?yabh??ya on Ny?yas?tra 5.2.10, Dharmak?rti's own > V?dany?ya (ed. Much, p. 43, l.14), and further in Jaina commentaries on > the Ava?yakaniryukti, see Nalini Balbir, "The Perfect S?tra as Defined > by the Jainas", Berliner Indologische Studien 3 (1987), 3-21. > > Hope this helps, > > Birgit Kellner > > Christian K. Wedemeyer wrote: >> Dear Friends, >> >> I received the following query last month, but am unable to come up >> with anything to help this very worthy person with their >> uncertainty. >> >> Does any of this ring a bell to anyone else on the list? I will >> pass on any replies to the person who sent the question. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Christian >> >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> >> I am writing with regard to a passing reference in Dharmak?rti's >> /Pram??avarttika /to what may be a Vedic ritual. In his commentary >> to a verse on the subject of /?ptav?da? /he makes the remark: >> "statements like the one containing the words 'ten pomegranates'" >> (/da?ad??im?div?ky?ni/)/. /A subcommentary by Kar?akagom? provides >> a fuller description of the reference: ?the phrase ?ten >> pomegranates, etc.? is such statements as ?ten pomegranates, six >> cakes, a bowl, a goat skin, and straw (?)? (S: /da?a d??imety?di >> da?a d??im?ni ?adp?p?? ku??am aj?jina? palalam ityevam ?d?ni >> v?ky?ni/). Still, neither writer identifies the source or meaning >> of this reference. The passage is cited as an example of statements >> that lack "consistency" (/asambandha//?/) or "coherence" >> (/anupasa?h?ra?/). One further piece of the puzzle is a Tibetan >> translation of a verse that appears in a commentary by a later >> Indian Buddhist scholar named ??ntarak?ita which also mentions this >> "ten pomegranates" passage. Although the exact meaning of the end >> of the verse is uncertain it may contain a reference to a type of >> ritual called /sparakratu /(The Tibetan contains what seems to be a >> transliteration of the Sanskrit words but is probably a distortion >> of the correct spelling). My best read of the line is that it says >> something like "the false daughter's (? an?taduhit?) cow, [which >> was the object] of a /sparakratu /ritual, died." It sounds like >> this list of items may appear in some Vedic ritual that is intended >> to save sick cows. I have virtually no knowledge of Vedic >> literature at all and cannot seem to locate any material that even >> verifies the existence of this type of ritual, much less provides >> any explanation of what it may involve. >> >> I would very much appreciate any clarification you might be willing >> to offer. From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Mon Aug 4 21:02:45 2008 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 08 23:02:45 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: "Ten pomegranates" in Dharmakirti's Pramanavarttika] In-Reply-To: <48975F41.8050904@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227083111.23782.12473665084204896459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As it luckily happens to lie on my desk - Vincent Eltschinger's "Penser l'autorit? des ?critures. La Pol?mique de Dharmak?rti contre la notion brahmanique orthodoxe d'un Veda sans auteur. Autour de Pram??av?rttika I.213-268 et Svav?tti" (Vienna 2007: ?sterreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften) contains a footnote on the passage in question with further references: p. 102, n. 106. According to Eltschinger, the example is widespread and can also be found at ?abarabh??ya on M?ma?sas?tra 1.1.5, Ny?yabh??ya on Ny?yas?tra 5.2.10, Dharmak?rti's own V?dany?ya (ed. Much, p. 43, l.14), and further in Jaina commentaries on the Ava?yakaniryukti, see Nalini Balbir, "The Perfect S?tra as Defined by the Jainas", Berliner Indologische Studien 3 (1987), 3-21. Hope this helps, Birgit Kellner Christian K. Wedemeyer wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I received the following query last month, but am unable to come up > with anything to help this very worthy person with their uncertainty. > > Does any of this ring a bell to anyone else on the list? I will pass > on any replies to the person who sent the question. > > Thanks, > > Christian > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > I am writing with regard to a passing reference in Dharmak?rti's > /Pram??avarttika /to what may be a Vedic ritual. In his commentary to > a verse on the subject of /?ptav?da? /he makes the remark: "statements > like the one containing the words 'ten pomegranates'" > (/da?ad??im?div?ky?ni/)/. /A subcommentary by Kar?akagom? provides a > fuller description of the reference: ?the phrase ?ten pomegranates, > etc.? is such statements as ?ten pomegranates, six cakes, a bowl, a > goat skin, and straw (?)? (S: /da?a d??imety?di da?a d??im?ni ?adp?p?? > ku??am aj?jina? palalam ityevam ?d?ni v?ky?ni/). Still, neither writer > identifies the source or meaning of this reference. The passage is > cited as an example of statements that lack "consistency" > (/asambandha//?/) or "coherence" (/anupasa?h?ra?/). One further piece > of the puzzle is a Tibetan translation of a verse that appears in a > commentary by a later Indian Buddhist scholar named ??ntarak?ita which > also mentions this "ten pomegranates" passage. Although the exact > meaning of the end of the verse is uncertain it may contain a > reference to a type of ritual called /sparakratu /(The Tibetan > contains what seems to be a transliteration of the Sanskrit words but > is probably a distortion of the correct spelling). My best read of the > line is that it says something like "the false daughter's (? > an?taduhit?) cow, [which was the object] of a /sparakratu /ritual, > died." It sounds like this list of items may appear in some Vedic > ritual that is intended to save sick cows. I have virtually no > knowledge of Vedic literature at all and cannot seem to locate any > material that even verifies the existence of this type of ritual, much > less provides any explanation of what it may involve. > > I would very much appreciate any clarification you might be willing to > offer. > > > > > > > > From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Aug 5 15:11:52 2008 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 08 11:11:52 -0400 Subject: New CDs of Skt. learning, Grantha, and the Vacaspatyam Message-ID: <161227083119.23782.127503590386336450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a circular from my institution's Delhi office to participants in the Cooperative Acquisitions Program. Since we have been discussing Sanskrit instruction of late, I am forwarding this as of unusual interest. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >>> New Delhi 08/05/08 2:23 AM >>> Rashtriya Sanskrit Vidyapeetha, Tirupati is a centre of excellence in the subject of traditional Shastras. They have brought out the following CD-ROM?s: 1. Samskrtasiksika = A self learning CD in Interactive mode. Language: Sanskrit and English. LCCN: I-CD-2008-306283 Price: Rs260.00 less 10% = $5.63 This CD is a unique approach to learn Sanskrit language. Main features are: Perfect pronunciation; Different styles of conversation; excellent styles of speech; Several styles of reading prose & poetry; Writing styles of Devanagari script; Grammar in simple way; Sanskrit literature & science in Sanskrit words for daily use; Stories with excellent animation; Melodious songs & slokas; Antyaksari; Fun with words; Fun with numbers; Quiz; Exercise; Conversation practice and more. 2. Granthalipibodhini = Grantha script tutor (set of three CDs) Language: Sanskrit LCCN: 2008-306282 Price: Rs210.00(Set) less 10% = $4.55 This is an educational CD (auto run) is the outcome of a project- Electronic tools for learning Ancient Indian Scripts under the Centre of excellence in the subject of traditional Sastras, a special scheme of University Grants Commission, New Delhi during 2002-2007. The tutor has been planned and presented in 3 CDs consisting of 75 hours material covering all aspects necessary to learn Grantha Script in learner friendly manner. Grantha script is the major script through which manuscripts were written in ancient times through out South India particularly Tamil Nadu area. The notable specialty of the tutor is that it gives ample practice material by providing copies of printed texts and palm leaves in Grantha scripts. 3. Vacaspatyam / Taranathatarkavacaspatisankalitam. Language: Sanskrit LCCN: I-CD 2008-306281 Price: Rs100.00 less 10% = $2.16 CD version of the Vacaspatyam = an encyclopedic lexicon of Sanskrit. This work consisting of about 5442 printed pages of ? demy size was compiled by Pandit Taranatha Tarkavacaspati. Having recognized the importance and usefulness of the VACASPATYAM , Rashtriya Sanskrit Vidyapeetha, Tirupati has undertaken a project for Web and CD version of the Vacaspatyam in the Sans-Net Centre from July 2005 to March 2007 under the Centre of Excellence Scheme of University Grants Commission, New Delhi. This CD version (1.0) to be revised regularly can be referred to search: 1. The stem and its meaning 2. Multiple meanings 3. Derivation 4. Linguistic specialties 5. Missing letters in works, while editing manuscripts 6. Related words of a particular word or any other information available in the Vacaspatyam. Web version can be viewed at www.sansknet.org. Please respond by August 20, 2008 if you want acquire any of these CD-ROM?s Usha Kataria & Sheenu Mathew Cataloging & Acquisitions Division From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Aug 5 17:35:14 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 08 18:35:14 +0100 Subject: Google continues to amaze: Hindi dictionary Message-ID: <161227083123.23782.3710152843052747159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://translate.google.co.uk/translate_dict?q=&hl=en&langpair=en%7Chi This set of dictionaries includes Hindi-English and English-Hindi, and even has picture illustrations and illustrative phrases. D -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow University College London From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 5 22:15:26 2008 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 08 00:15:26 +0200 Subject: Google continues to amaze: Hindi dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083125.23782.7111569312976149123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It's indeed amazing. But still a beta version. I tried "love": it gives only anuraaga as translation: no prem, pyaar, priiti, ishq etc.; under phrases related to "love" there is for instance: "national (!) love and affection" which is translated as "sahaja (!) prem aur anuraag" ("national" for "natural" which sounds vaguely similar?). There seems to be an option to give feedback according to the FAQ but I could not reach that option from the Dictionary mode. JH On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > http://translate.google.co.uk/translate_dict?q=&hl=en&langpair=en%7Chi > > This set of dictionaries includes Hindi-English and English-Hindi, and even > has picture illustrations and illustrative phrases. > > D > > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow > University College London > From mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU Wed Aug 6 01:52:37 2008 From: mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 08 11:52:37 +1000 Subject: 2nd notice for Spoken Sanskrit Summer School, Australia, 6-20 February 2009 Message-ID: <161227083128.23782.17914112867733731879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues We still have five places left in our Spoken Sanskrit Summer School, Australia, 6-20 February 2009, but they are filling fast. The course will be taught by Pandit Dr Sadananda Das of the University of Leipzig. I would be grateful if you would draw this course to the attention of your colleagues and students, wherever they may be. Details are available on our website: http://asianstudies.anu.edu.au/Spoken_Sanskrit_Summer_School It will be held at our magnificent coastal campus: http://kioloa.anu.edu.au Yours McComas -- =============================== Dr McComas Taylor Head, South Asia Centre Faculty of Asian Studies The Australian National University ACTON ACT 0200 Tel: +61 2 6125 3179 Fax: +61 2 6125 8326 Email: mccomas.taylor at anu.edu.au URL: http://asianstudies.anu.edu.au/wiki/index.php/Dr_McComas_Taylor Location: Room E4.24 Baldessin Precinct Building From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Aug 6 18:51:34 2008 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 08 14:51:34 -0400 Subject: svArtha derivation and subtypes of taddhita pratyaya affixes In-Reply-To: <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB03E85D51@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227083132.23782.18314239328045154829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ulrich, is there any chance that the derivation being discussed is not mitra/maitra ? maitra but mitra/maitra ? maitraka/maitreya (?byams pa being a possible Tibetan translation for both maitra and maitreya, though you don?t say what the Tibetan word for maitra is in your passage), and that mthun pa?i rkyen is just an unusual translation for taddhita (influenced by the meaning ?agreeable? of hita)? If Bh?vaviveka?s bdag gi don la de dang mthun pa?i rkyen is for sv?rthataddhitapratyaya, then I can sort of see how Avalokitavrata comes to explain the whole term as bdag dang mthun pa?i tshig gi rkyen ?affix of a word agreeing with itself (in meaning)? (taking sv?rthataddhita as a unit). Still, the step from commentary to subcommentary remains a bit peculiar. Is it possible that the Tibetan translation of Bh?vaviveka?s commentary was used alongside the Sanskrit original in the preparation of the Tibetan translation of Avalokitavrata?s subcommentary (similar to the Ud?navarga / Ud?navargavivara?a translation procedure as demonstrated by Michael Balk)? Best wishes, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Wed Aug 6 13:10:36 2008 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 08 15:10:36 +0200 Subject: svArtha derivation and subtypes of taddhita pratyaya affixes Message-ID: <161227083130.23782.350960264448221609.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, I am trying to understand a passage from Buddhist 6th century commentary by Bhavaviveka and its 7th century sub-commentary by Avalokitavrata, wherein a taddhita derivation of the word maitra is discussed. Although the texts were written in Sanskrit, they are now only extant in Tibetan, and I am struggling with figuring out three grammatical terms, which I hope someone on this list might recognize and explain to me in their Sanskrit context. The passage concerns a taddhita svArtha-derivation, i.e., a nominal derivation where the derivative "maitra" has the same meaning as its base (prakRti), which either is "mitra" or "maitra" itself, depending on which manuscript I rely on (too complex an issue to lay out here). To explain this svArtha-derivation, the commentators give the following argument (in Tibetan): bdag gi don la de dang mthun pa'i rkyen brjod par bya ba'i phyir ro. The first part "bdag gi don" is clearly svArtha, probably in the locative case. This is followed by the term I have problems identifying, namely "de dang mthun pa'i rkyen". The term means "an affix agreeing with that". The last part "rkyen" is Skt. "pratyaya". The first part might be "tad-AnurUpa-" or tat-svArUpya-". Does this ring any bells? Is there a pratyaya called a "tad-AnurUpa-pratyaya" or "tat-svArUpya-pratyaya" or anything similar, and what does it mean (references to literature would be very welcome)? In the sub-commentary, Avalokitavrata paraphrases the same term by calling it "bdag dang mthun pa'i tshig gi rkyen" meaning "a pada-affix agreeing with itself", perhaps Skt "svAnurUpa-pada-pratyaya" or something similar. Any remarks on this term would also be appreciated. Finally, the sub-commentator attempts to contrast this explanation with a second explanation given by for the taddhita derivation of maitra from mitra (here certainly understood as derived from mitra). In the course of that passage, he introduces a term, which in Tibetan is "gzhan gyi don", i.e., literally "other-meaning", which might be *anyArtha or *anyadartha or even *parArtha. Also, he parallels the longer term mentioned above and writes "gzhan dang mthun pa'i tshig gi rkyen" meaning "a pada-affix agreeing with other", perhaps Skt. *anyAnurUpa-pada-pratyaya or something similar. Here my question is: I understand that svArtha derivation denotes a derivation, where the derivative is synonymous with its base, but is there really an opposite term, such as "anyArtha" or "parArtha"? I am aware that such words exist in general, but does such a term occur as an opposite of svArtha in the context of derivation? I hope someone out there might have one or more answers. I have been through Kartre's "Dictionary of Panini" and I have tried almost every available Tibetan-Sanskrit dictionary. I have also searched the Tibetan Buddhist canon electronically and found that these terms are only used by the two above-mentioned authors, so they seem to be very rare - at least in Buddhist writings. With best regards, Ulrich Timme Kragh Dr. Ulrich Timme Kragh Assistant Professor Geumgang Center for Buddhist Studies Geumgang University, Dae-myeong Ri, Sang-wol Myeon Nonsan-si, Chungnam 320-931, Republic of Korea Tel. +82-41-731 3618 From peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU Thu Aug 7 12:01:45 2008 From: peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU (Peter Friedlander) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 08 05:01:45 -0700 Subject: Google continues to amaze: Hindi dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083137.23782.11489353345453910723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, its a fantastic resource, but its sad that like shabdakosh.com it gives no gender for nouns, which will make it less useful for language learners in a way, they will still have to go and check in an old fashioned dictionary! regards Peter Peter Gerard FRIEDLANDER (Dr) :: Senior Lecturer, Centre for Language Studies and South?Asian Studies Programme?:: Faculty of Arts & Social Sciences :: National University of Singapore :: AS4 9 Arts Link, #02-01 :: Singapore 117570 :: 65-6516 2468 (DID) :: 65-6777 7736 (Fax) :: clspgf at nus.edu.sg (E) :: www.nus.edu.sg (W) :: http://www.fas.nus.edu.sg/cls/ (CLS Website) :: Company Registration No: 200604346E Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset From drdavis at WISC.EDU Thu Aug 7 14:59:15 2008 From: drdavis at WISC.EDU (Donald R. Davis, Jr.) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 08 09:59:15 -0500 Subject: Parasara-Madhaviya Reference Message-ID: <161227083139.23782.485750744184834871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am trying to track down a reference from Kane's History of Dharmasastra to a passage from the Parasara-Madhaviya, specifically the Bombay Sanskrit Series edition by Vaman Sastri Islampurkar. My library only has the Calcutta/Bibliotheca India edition by Tarkalankara. Kane gives the citation as Vol. 2, Part 2, pp.206-207 (Prayascittakanda) and the passage in question from Madhava's commentary reads in part "nAyaM doSaH prAyazcittArthavAdatvena tadupayogAt...." I would like to read the full context of this citation, but I cannot seem to find the passage in my edition. If someone who happens to have the Bombay S.S. edition handy would kindly inform me which adhyaya this occurs in and/or which verse it is commenting upon, I should be able to find the full discussion in my edition. Many thanks in advance for the help. Best regards, Don Davis Dept of Languages & Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Thu Aug 7 15:44:26 2008 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 08 10:44:26 -0500 Subject: Parasara-Madhaviya Reference In-Reply-To: <489B0DC3.5000306@wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227083141.23782.2424631236155609743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Don: it is in Prayascitta Kanda, 12th Adhyaya, -- and section beginning with "atha karmavipAko nirpyate", and cited passage comes very early in this section. But really there is no verse to which this is a commentary; this is a long digression. If you cannot find it let me know and I can send you a xerox of these pages. Patrick >I am trying to track down a reference from Kane's History of >Dharmasastra to a passage from the Parasara-Madhaviya, specifically >the Bombay Sanskrit Series edition by Vaman Sastri Islampurkar. My >library only has the Calcutta/Bibliotheca India edition by >Tarkalankara. Kane gives the citation as Vol. 2, Part 2, pp.206-207 >(Prayascittakanda) and the passage in question from Madhava's >commentary reads in part "nAyaM doSaH prAyazcittArthavAdatvena >tadupayogAt...." I would like to read the full context of this >citation, but I cannot seem to find the passage in my edition. If >someone who happens to have the Bombay S.S. edition handy would >kindly inform me which adhyaya this occurs in and/or which verse it >is commenting upon, I should be able to find the full discussion in >my edition. Many thanks in advance for the help. >Best regards, > >Don Davis >Dept of Languages & Cultures of Asia >University of Wisconsin-Madison From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu Aug 7 06:05:05 2008 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 08 11:35:05 +0530 Subject: svArtha derivation and subtypes of taddhita pratyaya affixes In-Reply-To: <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB03E85D51@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227083135.23782.5171434111240457620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Though a definite decision cannot be taken without examining the text in more versions than one, prima facie de dang mthun pa'i rkyen might mean 'a suffix in accordance with that' ie with the desired meaning of the word. A particular suffix among many permissible ones is meant. This is necessitated by the fact that quite a few svaarthika pratyayas are mentioned by Paa.nini 5.4.5ss and also elsewhere. Here the a.(n) suffix is meant that generates maitra in the sense of mitra. This is the 'suffix in accordance'. For maitra by a svaarthika suffix the commentator seems to have the authority of Vaarttika 4 on Paa.nini 5.4.38? in?mind. The suutra speaks of amitra that can have the suffix in svaartha. The varttika authorises the operation for both?amitra ie mitra.? In order to clarify Pata;njali illustrates with the word maitra in the sense of mitra with the a(.n) suffix. DBhattacharya Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! group at http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Thu Aug 7 17:12:17 2008 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 08 12:12:17 -0500 Subject: Addresses In-Reply-To: <20080122104709.22A77404@bonito.ulb.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227083143.23782.11137617067102823793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends: Could someone send me the email addresses of the following: A. A. Vigasin A. M Samozvantsev (the two of these Russian scholars wrote "Society, State, and Law in Ancient India" Gen'ichi Yamazaki, who published "The Structure of Ancient Indian Society" in 2005 and works at the Toyo Bunko. Thank you very much. Patrick Olivelle From vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU Thu Aug 7 18:13:44 2008 From: vglyssenko at YANDEX.RU (Viktoria Lyssenko) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 08 22:13:44 +0400 Subject: Addresses In-Reply-To: <9040000000248142086> Message-ID: <161227083145.23782.4053510677269785962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The email of Vigasin is as follows vigasin at iaas.msu.ru Victoria Lysenko ??????.????????. ?? ???? ???? http://cards.yandex.ru/ From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Fri Aug 8 07:48:08 2008 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 08 09:48:08 +0200 Subject: svArtha derivation and subtypes of taddhita pratyaya affixes Message-ID: <161227083147.23782.1370471312363576262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology list members, thank you very much to Stefan Baums and Dipak Bhattacharya for their responses to my inquiry about svArthika derivation and taddhita affixes. Both mails contained several leads that were helpful to me. I am still left with one question I would like to pose to the list. I have been considering the possibility that the grammatical term tacchiila "having that (action) as its nature or habit, characterized by that" might be the term I have been looking for (for the Tibetan translation "de dang mthun pa'i rkyen). However, I see in Tubb and Boose's "Scholastic Sanskrit" page 58 that this function only seems to be applicable to primary derivation (kRt pratyaya) from verbal stem to noun, and in the case of my passage, I am dealing with a secondary nominal derivation (taddhita pratyaya). So here is my new question: would it at all be possible for a tacchiila interpretation to be applied to a taddhita derivation? Now, shortly in response to the postings by Baums and Bhattacharya. Bhattacharya's explanations of the svArthika and its application to my passage were very helpful - thank you very much. Baums asked whether the Tibetan word "byams pa" might reflect Skt. maitraka/maitreya here. The answer is no, the word is taken from Nagarjuna's Mmk root-text verse 17.1 on which the passage comments, and the root-text (extant in Skt) clearly has maitram. Secondly, Baums suggested that the Tibetan phrase "de dang mthun pa'i rkyen" might be an unusual translation for taddhita (the regular translation is "de dang phan pa'i rkyen). I appreciate this idea very much, and I have also been toying with that possibility. However, the only problem is that it cannot account for how the subcommentator Avalokitavrata substitutes the word "de" (= Skt tad) with "bdag" (= Skt. sva-) and "gzhan" (= Skt. any- or para-) in his explanation of the passage, where he writes "bdag dang mthun pa'i rkyen" and "gzhan dang mthun pa'i rkyen". I do not think that *taddhitapratyaya could be turned into *svahitapratyaya and *anyahitapratyaya. So, though the solution is tempting, then it does not solve all the problems. Further, Baums suggested that the Tibetan translations of Bhavaviveka's Mmk commentary and Avalokitavrata's subcommentary might be closely related, and could have been adjusted to each other in the translation process. I agree, and consider this quite likely. Both texts were translated by the same translators, namely Jnanagarbha and cog ro klu'i rgyal mtshan. Once again, thank you to both of you for taking time to help me. With best regards, Tim Dr. Ulrich Timme Kragh Assistant Professor Geumgang Center for Buddhist Studies Geumgang University, Dae-myeong Ri, Sang-wol Myeon Nonsan-si, Chungnam 320-931, Republic of Korea Tel. +82-41-731 3618 From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Aug 8 15:42:05 2008 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 08 10:42:05 -0500 Subject: svArtha derivation and subtypes of taddhita pratyaya affixes Message-ID: <161227083152.23782.6528992487677330721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am travelling and away from my library just now, but if my recollection is correct then Skt. taddhita should be Tib. de la phan pa. I suggest that de dang mthun pa may not in fact be an unusual translation of taddhita, but perhaps a perfectly regular translation of tatsama. Without access to my sources, however, I cannot say whether or not this term had a documented use that would be helpful in the present context. It is of course now most frequently encountered to describe NIA vocabulary that is borrowed unchanged from Skt. Might it have referred, then, to a derivation in which the derived term conserves the form of its source (as is the case, e.g., in gu.na derivations where the vowel is short a)? Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 8 17:52:28 2008 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 08 10:52:28 -0700 Subject: Kyoto-Harvard transliteration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083158.23782.8683649218526293195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am afraid that, being out of station (although, sadly, not at the moment in the mountains), I have missed this discussion until now. I would like to study it carefully, but just one remark a propos the following: On 8/3/08, G?rard Huet wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > ... Actually, vaarttikas recommend the fair law: first should be come the notion > worthy of most respect, like in maatapitarau. > ... Interestingly, I have survyed this (naturally, references not to hand, but they will be found in a footnote in my recent paper in JIPh on Good and Evil in Buddhism), and at least in the limited context of listing of the 5 sins of immediate retribution, the first two of which are killing one's mother and/or father, the ordering appears to be entirely free in both Pali and Skt. It is possible that since the list of 5 appears generally, although not always, to be in increasing order of seriousness, there was a conflict between listing the mother first, as noted by Dr Huet, and listing her second, since killing her is worse than killing a father. I discussed this issue of relative seriousness in the paper, but not the grammatical issue of ordering of compounds, other than the brief note. Thanks to all for the interesting discussion! jonathan -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Aug 8 16:31:58 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 08 17:31:58 +0100 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227083156.23782.6239337604995041475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There's an interesting set of reflections on the topic here: Journal of Linguistic Anthropology June 2008, Vol. 18, No. 1, pp. 24-45 Posted online on July 28, 2008. (doi:10.1111/j.1548-1395.2008.00002.x) Licked by the Mother Tongue: Imagining Everyday Sanskrit at Home and in the World by Adi Hastings Abstract: This paper examines the ways in which Sanskrit revivalists in contemporary India imagine social contexts for the production and reproduction of Sanskrit speech. In contrast to the received view of Sanskrit as being a ritual language par excellence, opposed at every step to the domestic sphere and everyday life, Sanskrit revivalists treat Sanskrit as a ?mother tongue,? figuring the home as the primary site for the creation of an ?everyday Sanskrit? world and the mother as the primary agent of this process of Sanskritizing the domestic sphere. ?Domesticating Sanskrit,? the process of bringing the elevated ritual language down into everyday life, at the very same time ?Sanskritizes the domestic,? that is, ritually transforms or elevates the home into a ?Sanskrit home.? Moving outward from the Sanskritized domestic sphere, activists also imagine other contexts in which one could use Sanskrit, which nonetheless conforms to a notion of a Sanskrit interiority or domesticity. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow University College London From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri Aug 8 14:15:23 2008 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 08 19:45:23 +0530 Subject: svArtha derivation and subtypes of taddhita pratyaya affixes In-Reply-To: <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB03E85D52@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227083150.23782.7679948786395251432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 08 08 08 Dear Dr.Kragh, The primarihood of the tacchiila suffixes is inherent and not a metalinguistic innovation. ;siila means 'habit, usual conduct' and pertains to action, taacchiilya: 'the state of having that as habit'. There cannot be any question of having that sense with a proper name. For de dang mthun pa'i rkyen the literal translation is tadanukuulapratyaya. But the commentator by all probability was thinking in Sanskrit and not in Tibetan. So this may elliptically mean tada(artha)anukuula pratyaya 'a pratyaya conducive to that meaning ie the meaning of the prak.rti'. One cannot question or criticise the author for not using a term for 'vaacaka' or 'abhidhaayin'. I shall be glad to know if this makes things a bit clearer. DB --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Ulrich T. Kragh wrote: From: Ulrich T. Kragh Subject: Re: svArtha derivation and subtypes of taddhita pratyaya affixes To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 8 August, 2008, 1:18 PM Dear Indology list members, thank you very much to Stefan Baums and Dipak Bhattacharya for their responses to my inquiry about svArthika derivation and taddhita affixes. Both mails contained several leads that were helpful to me. I am still left with one question I would like to pose to the list. I have been considering the possibility that the grammatical term tacchiila "having that (action) as its nature or habit, characterized by that" might be the term I have been looking for (for the Tibetan translation "de dang mthun pa'i rkyen). However, I see in Tubb and Boose's "Scholastic Sanskrit" page 58 that this function only seems to be applicable to primary derivation (kRt pratyaya) from verbal stem to noun, and in the case of my passage, I am dealing with a secondary nominal derivation (taddhita pratyaya). So here is my new question: would it at all be possible for a tacchiila interpretation to be applied to a taddhita derivation? Now, shortly in response to the postings by Baums and Bhattacharya. Bhattacharya's explanations of the svArthika and its application to my passage were very helpful - thank you very much. Baums asked whether the Tibetan word "byams pa" might reflect Skt. maitraka/maitreya here. The answer is no, the word is taken from Nagarjuna's Mmk root-text verse 17.1 on which the passage comments, and the root-text (extant in Skt) clearly has maitram. Secondly, Baums suggested that the Tibetan phrase "de dang mthun pa'i rkyen" might be an unusual translation for taddhita (the regular translation is "de dang phan pa'i rkyen). I appreciate this idea very much, and I have also been toying with that possibility. However, the only problem is that it cannot account for how the subcommentator Avalokitavrata substitutes the word "de" (= Skt tad) with "bdag" (= Skt. sva-) and "gzhan" (= Skt. any- or para-) in his explanation of the passage, where he writes "bdag dang mthun pa'i rkyen" and "gzhan dang mthun pa'i rkyen". I do not think that *taddhitapratyaya could be turned into *svahitapratyaya and *anyahitapratyaya. So, though the solution is tempting, then it does not solve all the problems. Further, Baums suggested that the Tibetan translations of Bhavaviveka's Mmk commentary and Avalokitavrata's subcommentary might be closely related, and could have been adjusted to each other in the translation process. I agree, and consider this quite likely. Both texts were translated by the same translators, namely Jnanagarbha and cog ro klu'i rgyal mtshan. Once again, thank you to both of you for taking time to help me. With best regards, Tim Dr. Ulrich Timme Kragh Assistant Professor Geumgang Center for Buddhist Studies Geumgang University, Dae-myeong Ri, Sang-wol Myeon Nonsan-si, Chungnam 320-931, Republic of Korea Tel. +82-41-731 3618 Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://in.sports.yahoo.com/cricket/ From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 8 19:49:00 2008 From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 08 19:49:00 +0000 Subject: Arches Message-ID: <161227083161.23782.913322345833279715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends: I am working on arches in Indian designs and forms. Very often Indian artists and artisans create arches even in a two dimensional design to enclose the main form. Are these arches a variation of toranas or festoons or gateways? I would love hearing from scholars who have thought about this. Regards. Harsha HArsha V. Dehejia From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri Aug 8 16:01:34 2008 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 08 21:31:34 +0530 Subject: svArtha derivation and subtypes of taddhita pratyaya affixes In-Reply-To: <20080808104205.BIS58911@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227083154.23782.3732913765377612402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In fact this explanation is better than mine.I have not yet encountered the word for taddhita in Tibetan, nor does the Mvy record it, still Matthew T. Kapstein's explanation is more plausible than mine. DB? --- On Fri, 8/8/08, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: svArtha derivation and subtypes of taddhita pratyaya affixes To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 8 August, 2008, 9:12 PM I am travelling and away from my library just now, but if my recollection is correct then Skt. taddhita should be Tib. de la phan pa. I suggest that de dang mthun pa may not in fact be an unusual translation of taddhita, but perhaps a perfectly regular translation of tatsama. Without access to my sources, however, I cannot say whether or not this term had a documented use that would be helpful in the present context. It is of course now most frequently encountered to describe NIA vocabulary that is borrowed unchanged from Skt. Might it have referred, then, to a derivation in which the derived term conserves the form of its source (as is the case, e.g., in gu.na derivations where the vowel is short a)? Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Sun Aug 10 15:32:38 2008 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 08 17:32:38 +0200 Subject: svArtha derivation and subtypes of taddhita pratyaya affixes Message-ID: <161227083162.23782.7130853119028608045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you very much to Dipak Bhattacharya and Matthew Kapstein for their replies to my continued inquiry. I believe that Professor Kapstein's suggestion "tatsama" works well in the passage, provided of course that it can be understood in a more literal meaning that is different from its later technical use of denoting Sanskrit loanwords in New Indo-Aryan languages, as also noted by Kapstein. I think that would be an acceptable supposition for its occurrence in two 6th-7th century texts. Thank you very much for the kind help. Sincerely, Tim Dr. Ulrich Timme Kragh Assistant Professor Geumgang Center for Buddhist Studies Geumgang University, Dae-myeong Ri, Sang-wol Myeon Nonsan-si, Chungnam 320-931, Republic of Korea Tel. +82-41-731 3618 From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sun Aug 10 17:49:06 2008 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 08 23:19:06 +0530 Subject: svArtha derivation and subtypes of taddhita pratyaya affixes In-Reply-To: <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB03E85D53@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227083164.23782.11636965909699792766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 10 08 08 ?I am afraid I reacted with undue haste without going through the whole of Kapstein's letter.? The difficulty is that I have not?the documents with me. What appeared to me striking is that the very word taddhita could have been meant. It has been meant, I think. But I could have been absolutely certain if I had consulted the material concerned. In?case this suggestion of mine is correct the translation bdag gi don la de dang mthun pa'i rkyen brjod par bya ba'i phyir ro? should have been based on an original that stood as svaarthe taddhitapratyayasya vihitatvaat that can be roughly translated into English as? ?since a taddhta suffix has been enjoined in the meaning of the stem?. But as I said this is a provisional translation. But it seems very likely that the commentator's skill lies in his ability to make a rendering that makes the meaning of the word taddhita explicit though, as Kapsein argues, it is not the usual translation. That I am unable to comment on at present. DB ? ? --- On Sun, 10/8/08, Ulrich T. Kragh wrote: From: Ulrich T. Kragh Subject: Re: svArtha derivation and subtypes of taddhita pratyaya affixes To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 10 August, 2008, 9:02 PM Thank you very much to Dipak Bhattacharya and Matthew Kapstein for their replies to my continued inquiry. I believe that Professor Kapstein's suggestion "tatsama" works well in the passage, provided of course that it can be understood in a more literal meaning that is different from its later technical use of denoting Sanskrit loanwords in New Indo-Aryan languages, as also noted by Kapstein. I think that would be an acceptable supposition for its occurrence in two 6th-7th century texts. Thank you very much for the kind help. Sincerely, Tim Dr. Ulrich Timme Kragh Assistant Professor Geumgang Center for Buddhist Studies Geumgang University, Dae-myeong Ri, Sang-wol Myeon Nonsan-si, Chungnam 320-931, Republic of Korea Tel. +82-41-731 3618 Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Aug 11 14:07:05 2008 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 08 07:07:05 -0700 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <965fdc5f0808110047j29640bcbp30d3dcfb9ca9c662@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227083170.23782.16693062939762156610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I myself once encountered someone from Karnataka who lived in the village where "Sanskrit" is spoken. It was a dumbed-down language not much resembling (in my opinion) the eloquent tongue used by Kalidasa and Sankara -- or even the epics. It dispenses with such frills as the dual and many verb forms. I asked him if he had read Sanskrit literature -- poetry, darsana, whatever. He seemed nonplussed by the question -- he spoke Sanskrit; why should he read Kalidasa? I felt he was entirely ignorant of the intellectual grandeur and scope of the language and spoke it (or his version of it) merely to make a statement. I would remark parenthetically that the use of Sanskrit in a Malayalam historical novel I once read -- including 3-line Sanskrit compounds -- was far more sophisticated than this "Sanskrit" speaker could have managed. If he had studied the literature of Kannada -- which I suspect was his real native language -- his Sanskrit would certainly have been much better. George Hart On Aug 11, 2008, at 12:47 AM, veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: > dear friends, > welcome to such new studies. > but is is difficult for a naiyayika to imagine ritual transformation > of > household in the context of modern sanskrit revivalism. Since I know > personally many sanskrit families here, it is nothing but some kind of > national revivalism. > thanks > veeranarayana > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > >> >> There's an interesting set of reflections on the topic here: >> >> Journal of Linguistic Anthropology >> June 2008, Vol. 18, No. 1, pp. 24-45 >> Posted online on July 28, 2008. >> (doi:10.1111/j.1548-1395.2008.00002.x) >> >> Licked by the Mother Tongue: Imagining Everyday Sanskrit at Home >> and in the >> World >> by Adi Hastings >> >> Abstract: >> This paper examines the ways in which Sanskrit revivalists in >> contemporary >> India imagine social contexts for the production and reproduction of >> Sanskrit speech. In contrast to the received view of Sanskrit as >> being a >> ritual language par excellence, opposed at every step to the >> domestic sphere >> and everyday life, Sanskrit revivalists treat Sanskrit as a "mother >> tongue," >> figuring the home as the primary site for the creation of an >> "everyday >> Sanskrit" world and the mother as the primary agent of this process >> of >> Sanskritizing the domestic sphere. "Domesticating Sanskrit," the >> process of >> bringing the elevated ritual language down into everyday life, at >> the very >> same time "Sanskritizes the domestic," that is, ritually transforms >> or >> elevates the home into a "Sanskrit home." Moving outward from the >> Sanskritized domestic sphere, activists also imagine other contexts >> in which >> one could use Sanskrit, which nonetheless conforms to a notion of a >> Sanskrit >> interiority or domesticity. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >> Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow >> University College London >> >> > > > -- > Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi > Head, Dept of Darshanas, > Yoganandacharya Bhavan, > Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post > Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Aug 11 14:42:29 2008 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 08 07:42:29 -0700 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083174.23782.6168847015898403237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Rasik Joshi Tripathi, I myself spoke Sanskrit for a year with pandits from the Sanskrit Sanskrit college -- I made sure none of them knew English. I became pretty fluent, and was intrigued to discover that my wife, who is Tamil and has studied Tamil literature thoroughly, could understand us after a time. Colloquial Tamil contains thousands of Sanskrit words, though of course high Tamil uses pure Dravidian equivalents (e.g. tuuymai for suddam < suddha). Sanskrit syntax has been deeply influenced by Dravidian -- and this is even more true of spoken Sanskrit (bhavaan aagamisyati vaa, where the vaa replicates the Dravidian interrogative -aa). This no doubt made it easier for her to understand. The Sanskrit used by the pandits had, in my estimation, very little in common with the language of the person from the Sanskrit village. They used the language sensitively, creatively, and with a full knowledge of all its forms. I remember once being taken to task for using too many bhaave constructions, a convenient workaround that, of course, enables one to avoid remembering all the various verb conjugations. It is certainly true that there are many like yourself who are well-versed in Sanskrit even today. A Tamil gentleman living in the Bay Area recently presented me with a composition -- quite well done -- he had written in Sanskrit on the Titanic. He had truly mastered the language. George Hart On Aug 11, 2008, at 7:27 AM, Rasik Vihari Joshi Tripathi wrote: > Dear Hart, > Do you know that there are fourteen Sanskrit Vidyapeetha in India, and > six Sanskrit universities in Varanasi,Tirupati, Delhi,Jaipur etc. > where > sanskrit is the media of teaching and all Professors and students > speak > Sanskrit. My mother toung was Sanskrit. My father Pandit Rampratap > Shastri was Professor and Head of the Departrment of Sanskrit at the > Nagpur university and I learnt Sanskrit with him as a child and > then at > Varanasi I studied upto Shastri degree. I took my first Ph.D. in India > and second at Sorbonne.I have composed and published 15 Sanskrit > Kavyas > I still speak Sanskrit fluently. My latest Sanskrit Kavya is Satyam > Universl Truth). I wonder if you have met any Professor or student of > these institutions? With best regards, > Rasik Vihari Joshi > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] En nombre de George > Hart > Enviado el: Lunes, 11 de Agosto de 2008 09:07 a.m. > Para: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Asunto: Re: Spoken Sanskrit > > > I myself once encountered someone from Karnataka who lived in the > village where "Sanskrit" is spoken. It was a dumbed-down language not > much resembling (in my opinion) the eloquent tongue used by Kalidasa > and Sankara -- or even the epics. It dispenses with such frills as > the dual and many verb forms. I asked him if he had read Sanskrit > literature -- poetry, darsana, whatever. He seemed nonplussed by the > question -- he spoke Sanskrit; why should he read Kalidasa? I felt he > was entirely ignorant of the intellectual grandeur and scope of the > language and spoke it (or his version of it) merely to make a > statement. I would remark parenthetically that the use of Sanskrit in > a Malayalam historical novel I once read -- including 3-line Sanskrit > compounds -- was far more sophisticated than this "Sanskrit" speaker > could have managed. If he had studied the literature of Kannada -- > which I suspect was his real native language -- his Sanskrit would > certainly have been much better. George Hart > > On Aug 11, 2008, at 12:47 AM, veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: > >> dear friends, >> welcome to such new studies. >> but is is difficult for a naiyayika to imagine ritual transformation >> of >> household in the context of modern sanskrit revivalism. Since I know >> personally many sanskrit families here, it is nothing but some kind >> of >> national revivalism. >> thanks >> veeranarayana >> >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Dominik Wujastyk >> wrote: >> >>> >>> There's an interesting set of reflections on the topic here: >>> >>> Journal of Linguistic Anthropology >>> June 2008, Vol. 18, No. 1, pp. 24-45 >>> Posted online on July 28, 2008. >>> (doi:10.1111/j.1548-1395.2008.00002.x) >>> >>> Licked by the Mother Tongue: Imagining Everyday Sanskrit at Home >>> and in the >>> World >>> by Adi Hastings >>> >>> Abstract: >>> This paper examines the ways in which Sanskrit revivalists in >>> contemporary >>> India imagine social contexts for the production and reproduction of >>> Sanskrit speech. In contrast to the received view of Sanskrit as >>> being a >>> ritual language par excellence, opposed at every step to the >>> domestic sphere >>> and everyday life, Sanskrit revivalists treat Sanskrit as a "mother >>> tongue," >>> figuring the home as the primary site for the creation of an >>> "everyday >>> Sanskrit" world and the mother as the primary agent of this process >>> of >>> Sanskritizing the domestic sphere. "Domesticating Sanskrit," the >>> process of >>> bringing the elevated ritual language down into everyday life, at >>> the very >>> same time "Sanskritizes the domestic," that is, ritually transforms >>> or >>> elevates the home into a "Sanskrit home." Moving outward from the >>> Sanskritized domestic sphere, activists also imagine other contexts >>> in which >>> one could use Sanskrit, which nonetheless conforms to a notion of a >>> Sanskrit >>> interiority or domesticity. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >>> Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow >>> University College London >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi >> Head, Dept of Darshanas, >> Yoganandacharya Bhavan, >> Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post >> Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Mon Aug 11 14:27:02 2008 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Rasik Vihari Joshi Tripathi) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 08 09:27:02 -0500 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227083172.23782.6049844765649184292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Hart, Do you know that there are fourteen Sanskrit Vidyapeetha in India, and six Sanskrit universities in Varanasi,Tirupati, Delhi,Jaipur etc. where sanskrit is the media of teaching and all Professors and students speak Sanskrit. My mother toung was Sanskrit. My father Pandit Rampratap Shastri was Professor and Head of the Departrment of Sanskrit at the Nagpur university and I learnt Sanskrit with him as a child and then at Varanasi I studied upto Shastri degree. I took my first Ph.D. in India and second at Sorbonne.I have composed and published 15 Sanskrit Kavyas I still speak Sanskrit fluently. My latest Sanskrit Kavya is Satyam Universl Truth). I wonder if you have met any Professor or student of these institutions? With best regards, Rasik Vihari Joshi -----Mensaje original----- De: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] En nombre de George Hart Enviado el: Lunes, 11 de Agosto de 2008 09:07 a.m. Para: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Asunto: Re: Spoken Sanskrit I myself once encountered someone from Karnataka who lived in the village where "Sanskrit" is spoken. It was a dumbed-down language not much resembling (in my opinion) the eloquent tongue used by Kalidasa and Sankara -- or even the epics. It dispenses with such frills as the dual and many verb forms. I asked him if he had read Sanskrit literature -- poetry, darsana, whatever. He seemed nonplussed by the question -- he spoke Sanskrit; why should he read Kalidasa? I felt he was entirely ignorant of the intellectual grandeur and scope of the language and spoke it (or his version of it) merely to make a statement. I would remark parenthetically that the use of Sanskrit in a Malayalam historical novel I once read -- including 3-line Sanskrit compounds -- was far more sophisticated than this "Sanskrit" speaker could have managed. If he had studied the literature of Kannada -- which I suspect was his real native language -- his Sanskrit would certainly have been much better. George Hart On Aug 11, 2008, at 12:47 AM, veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: > dear friends, > welcome to such new studies. > but is is difficult for a naiyayika to imagine ritual transformation > of > household in the context of modern sanskrit revivalism. Since I know > personally many sanskrit families here, it is nothing but some kind of > national revivalism. > thanks > veeranarayana > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > >> >> There's an interesting set of reflections on the topic here: >> >> Journal of Linguistic Anthropology >> June 2008, Vol. 18, No. 1, pp. 24-45 >> Posted online on July 28, 2008. >> (doi:10.1111/j.1548-1395.2008.00002.x) >> >> Licked by the Mother Tongue: Imagining Everyday Sanskrit at Home >> and in the >> World >> by Adi Hastings >> >> Abstract: >> This paper examines the ways in which Sanskrit revivalists in >> contemporary >> India imagine social contexts for the production and reproduction of >> Sanskrit speech. In contrast to the received view of Sanskrit as >> being a >> ritual language par excellence, opposed at every step to the >> domestic sphere >> and everyday life, Sanskrit revivalists treat Sanskrit as a "mother >> tongue," >> figuring the home as the primary site for the creation of an >> "everyday >> Sanskrit" world and the mother as the primary agent of this process >> of >> Sanskritizing the domestic sphere. "Domesticating Sanskrit," the >> process of >> bringing the elevated ritual language down into everyday life, at >> the very >> same time "Sanskritizes the domestic," that is, ritually transforms >> or >> elevates the home into a "Sanskrit home." Moving outward from the >> Sanskritized domestic sphere, activists also imagine other contexts >> in which >> one could use Sanskrit, which nonetheless conforms to a notion of a >> Sanskrit >> interiority or domesticity. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >> Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow >> University College London >> >> > > > -- > Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi > Head, Dept of Darshanas, > Yoganandacharya Bhavan, > Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post > Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Mon Aug 11 07:38:08 2008 From: klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 08 10:38:08 +0300 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083166.23782.3151289590387830010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, H. H. Hock studied spoken Sanskrit in the 1980s in U.P., in Lucknow and Varanasi, if I remember right. See his article ?Spoken Sanskrit in Uttar Pradesh ? a sociolinguistic profile?, Journal of Orientology. Lokapraj?? vol. 2. Prof. N. S. R?m?nuja T?t?c?rya Felicitation Volume. Puri 1988, 1?24. There has been a small percentage of people giving Sanskrit as their language in every census, but often it seems to be "father tongue" rather than "mother tongue". Regards, Klaus Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D. Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Institute for Asian and African Studies PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 Email Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi On Aug 8, 2008, at 7:31 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > There's an interesting set of reflections on the topic here: > > Journal of Linguistic Anthropology > June 2008, Vol. 18, No. 1, pp. 24-45 > Posted online on July 28, 2008. > (doi:10.1111/j.1548-1395.2008.00002.x) > > Licked by the Mother Tongue: Imagining Everyday Sanskrit at Home > and in the World > by Adi Hastings > > Abstract: > This paper examines the ways in which Sanskrit revivalists in > contemporary India imagine social contexts for the production and > reproduction of Sanskrit speech. In contrast to the received view > of Sanskrit as being a ritual language par excellence, opposed at > every step to the domestic sphere and everyday life, Sanskrit > revivalists treat Sanskrit as a ?mother tongue,? figuring the > home as the primary site for the creation of an ?everyday > Sanskrit? world and the mother as the primary agent of this > process of Sanskritizing the domestic sphere. ?Domesticating > Sanskrit,? the process of bringing the elevated ritual language > down into everyday life, at the very same time ?Sanskritizes the > domestic,? that is, ritually transforms or elevates the home into > a ?Sanskrit home.? Moving outward from the Sanskritized domestic > sphere, activists also imagine other contexts in which one could > use Sanskrit, which nonetheless conforms to a notion of a Sanskrit > interiority or domesticity. > > > > > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow > University College London > From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Mon Aug 11 16:11:17 2008 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Rasik Vihari Joshi Tripathi) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 08 11:11:17 -0500 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227083176.23782.4807247549808761561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Hart, I am very glad to know that you are also a fluent Sanskrit and Tamil speaker.yes.There in much similarity with dravidian. If you would be interested I will send you my Sanskrit Kavya "Satyam". If yes, l. send me your mailing address.With best regards, Rasik Vihari Joshi -----Mensaje original----- De: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] En nombre de George Hart Enviado el: Lunes, 11 de Agosto de 2008 09:42 a.m. Para: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Asunto: Re: Spoken Sanskrit Dear Rasik Joshi Tripathi, I myself spoke Sanskrit for a year with pandits from the Sanskrit Sanskrit college -- I made sure none of them knew English. I became pretty fluent, and was intrigued to discover that my wife, who is Tamil and has studied Tamil literature thoroughly, could understand us after a time. Colloquial Tamil contains thousands of Sanskrit words, though of course high Tamil uses pure Dravidian equivalents (e.g. tuuymai for suddam < suddha). Sanskrit syntax has been deeply influenced by Dravidian -- and this is even more true of spoken Sanskrit (bhavaan aagamisyati vaa, where the vaa replicates the Dravidian interrogative -aa). This no doubt made it easier for her to understand. The Sanskrit used by the pandits had, in my estimation, very little in common with the language of the person from the Sanskrit village. They used the language sensitively, creatively, and with a full knowledge of all its forms. I remember once being taken to task for using too many bhaave constructions, a convenient workaround that, of course, enables one to avoid remembering all the various verb conjugations. It is certainly true that there are many like yourself who are well-versed in Sanskrit even today. A Tamil gentleman living in the Bay Area recently presented me with a composition -- quite well done -- he had written in Sanskrit on the Titanic. He had truly mastered the language. George Hart On Aug 11, 2008, at 7:27 AM, Rasik Vihari Joshi Tripathi wrote: > Dear Hart, > Do you know that there are fourteen Sanskrit Vidyapeetha in India, and > six Sanskrit universities in Varanasi,Tirupati, Delhi,Jaipur etc. > where > sanskrit is the media of teaching and all Professors and students > speak > Sanskrit. My mother toung was Sanskrit. My father Pandit Rampratap > Shastri was Professor and Head of the Departrment of Sanskrit at the > Nagpur university and I learnt Sanskrit with him as a child and > then at > Varanasi I studied upto Shastri degree. I took my first Ph.D. in India > and second at Sorbonne.I have composed and published 15 Sanskrit > Kavyas > I still speak Sanskrit fluently. My latest Sanskrit Kavya is Satyam > Universl Truth). I wonder if you have met any Professor or student of > these institutions? With best regards, > Rasik Vihari Joshi > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] En nombre de George > Hart > Enviado el: Lunes, 11 de Agosto de 2008 09:07 a.m. > Para: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Asunto: Re: Spoken Sanskrit > > > I myself once encountered someone from Karnataka who lived in the > village where "Sanskrit" is spoken. It was a dumbed-down language not > much resembling (in my opinion) the eloquent tongue used by Kalidasa > and Sankara -- or even the epics. It dispenses with such frills as > the dual and many verb forms. I asked him if he had read Sanskrit > literature -- poetry, darsana, whatever. He seemed nonplussed by the > question -- he spoke Sanskrit; why should he read Kalidasa? I felt he > was entirely ignorant of the intellectual grandeur and scope of the > language and spoke it (or his version of it) merely to make a > statement. I would remark parenthetically that the use of Sanskrit in > a Malayalam historical novel I once read -- including 3-line Sanskrit > compounds -- was far more sophisticated than this "Sanskrit" speaker > could have managed. If he had studied the literature of Kannada -- > which I suspect was his real native language -- his Sanskrit would > certainly have been much better. George Hart > > On Aug 11, 2008, at 12:47 AM, veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: > >> dear friends, >> welcome to such new studies. >> but is is difficult for a naiyayika to imagine ritual transformation >> of >> household in the context of modern sanskrit revivalism. Since I know >> personally many sanskrit families here, it is nothing but some kind >> of >> national revivalism. >> thanks >> veeranarayana >> >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Dominik Wujastyk >> wrote: >> >>> >>> There's an interesting set of reflections on the topic here: >>> >>> Journal of Linguistic Anthropology >>> June 2008, Vol. 18, No. 1, pp. 24-45 >>> Posted online on July 28, 2008. >>> (doi:10.1111/j.1548-1395.2008.00002.x) >>> >>> Licked by the Mother Tongue: Imagining Everyday Sanskrit at Home >>> and in the >>> World >>> by Adi Hastings >>> >>> Abstract: >>> This paper examines the ways in which Sanskrit revivalists in >>> contemporary >>> India imagine social contexts for the production and reproduction of >>> Sanskrit speech. In contrast to the received view of Sanskrit as >>> being a >>> ritual language par excellence, opposed at every step to the >>> domestic sphere >>> and everyday life, Sanskrit revivalists treat Sanskrit as a "mother >>> tongue," >>> figuring the home as the primary site for the creation of an >>> "everyday >>> Sanskrit" world and the mother as the primary agent of this process >>> of >>> Sanskritizing the domestic sphere. "Domesticating Sanskrit," the >>> process of >>> bringing the elevated ritual language down into everyday life, at >>> the very >>> same time "Sanskritizes the domestic," that is, ritually transforms >>> or >>> elevates the home into a "Sanskrit home." Moving outward from the >>> Sanskritized domestic sphere, activists also imagine other contexts >>> in which >>> one could use Sanskrit, which nonetheless conforms to a notion of a >>> Sanskrit >>> interiority or domesticity. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >>> Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow >>> University College London >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi >> Head, Dept of Darshanas, >> Yoganandacharya Bhavan, >> Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post >> Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 11 07:47:37 2008 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 08 13:17:37 +0530 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083168.23782.17647470284874426616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear friends, welcome to such new studies. but is is difficult for a naiyayika to imagine ritual transformation of household in the context of modern sanskrit revivalism. Since I know personally many sanskrit families here, it is nothing but some kind of national revivalism. thanks veeranarayana On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > There's an interesting set of reflections on the topic here: > > Journal of Linguistic Anthropology > June 2008, Vol. 18, No. 1, pp. 24-45 > Posted online on July 28, 2008. > (doi:10.1111/j.1548-1395.2008.00002.x) > > Licked by the Mother Tongue: Imagining Everyday Sanskrit at Home and in the > World > by Adi Hastings > > Abstract: > This paper examines the ways in which Sanskrit revivalists in contemporary > India imagine social contexts for the production and reproduction of > Sanskrit speech. In contrast to the received view of Sanskrit as being a > ritual language par excellence, opposed at every step to the domestic sphere > and everyday life, Sanskrit revivalists treat Sanskrit as a "mother tongue," > figuring the home as the primary site for the creation of an "everyday > Sanskrit" world and the mother as the primary agent of this process of > Sanskritizing the domestic sphere. "Domesticating Sanskrit," the process of > bringing the elevated ritual language down into everyday life, at the very > same time "Sanskritizes the domestic," that is, ritually transforms or > elevates the home into a "Sanskrit home." Moving outward from the > Sanskritized domestic sphere, activists also imagine other contexts in which > one could use Sanskrit, which nonetheless conforms to a notion of a Sanskrit > interiority or domesticity. > > > > > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow > University College London > > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Tue Aug 12 14:08:09 2008 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 08 16:08:09 +0200 Subject: Electronic version of Mani's Puranic Encyclopaedia Message-ID: <161227083178.23782.10316791777404208072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, on the NITAAI Veda web-site ("The comprehensive Vedic knowledge Base", "compiled by devotees of lords Nityananda Gauranga"), there is a nearly complete electronic input (without diacritics, and many misprints) of the English version of Ve.t.tam Maa.ni's Puranic Encyclopaedia (originally published in Malayaa.lam). See http://nitaaiveda.com/All_Scriptures_By_Acharyas/Puranas/Puranic_Encyclopedia/ With best wishes, Christophe Vielle -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Aug 13 07:49:54 2008 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 08 03:49:54 -0400 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit and Spoken Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227083183.23782.9438166417341025163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the current debate about "spoken Sanskrit" I believe we are talking about two different things. It is one thing when for example a Bengali pandit speaks to Telugu pandit in Sanskrit in order to debate finer points in a text, or a philosophical issue, a literary allusion and so forth. Sanskrit is then their common language, a language of learning, of elegance and wit. And this is quite wonderful. It is an entirely different matter to try to revive and 'modernize' Sanskrit. Lying on a table in our university library I found a typical example of the latter. There were new-fangled "Sanskrit" words for money order, check-out counter, bus station, bank draft - as if one finds these things in classical Sanskrit texts! These manuals are quite ridiculous: I found a sentence like ahaM sevaphalAni khAdAmi which was supposed to mean 'I eat apples'. First, as far as I know there were no apples in classical India (weren't they brought in by Babur?), second the word seva is obviously modeled on Hindi seb 'apple' from the Persian sib with the same meaning. This is exactly in line with the examples given by Professor Nair: "adya kati iddali bhakshitam?" "adya chayam piitam kim?", equally ridiculous. My niece in Delhi once asked to help her with her Sanskrit homework. She had to translate the sentence "Kings live in palaces" into Sanskrit. The word given by the teacher for palace was 'mahala' !!! I tried to convince the little girl that there was no such word in Sanskrit. In vain. The girl said :"teacher says it is mahala", and that was what it had to be. It is very sad to se how the ignorant Hindutva forces demean and make the wonderful classical language into something trivial and ridiculous. How do we stop them? How can we rescue Sanskrit from these vandals? I doubt that the sevaphalAni-eating student in his mahala can read and understand even one line by Kalidasa or Bana or Jayadeva. But he can cut the throat of those who cannot speak his so called Sanskrit. When he is not busy demolishing mosques and raping nuns. Stella Sandahl -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Tel. (416) 978-4295 Fax. (416) 978-5711 From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Wed Aug 13 14:27:43 2008 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 08 07:27:43 -0700 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit and Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <0CA4AC63-7635-4390-81BE-4B28821AEE0E@ocf.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227083193.23782.7127205309317423436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Years ago, the late highly learned Sanskrit scholar Dr. Janaki stayed at our house. She showed me a column she had written in Sanskrit about the McEnroe - Borg tennis competition. Her command of the language was awesome -- she was capable to expressing just about anything, using the full resources of the language. I still remember getting up one morning about 6:00 and encountering a bright-eyed Janaki chattering away in fluent (and extremely rapid) Sanskrit, and struggling with little success to process what she said in my still numbed state. The problem, I feel, with the kind of spoken Sanskrit we're talking about is not that it borrows Hindi words or Tamil syntax. As Adheesh says, Sanskrit has been borrowing or innovating since the beginning (many of its most common words are Dravidian). The problem is that spoken "Sanskrit" is incapable of expressing a complex thought -- "How many Idlis did you eat today" is not exactly a profound idea. Real languages are highly complex because they need to be used to express complex ideas. Sanskrit is no exception. As Prof. Nair notes, languages such as Malayalam can make use of the entire Sanskrit vocabulary to express thoughts that are extremely complicated (one might also remark that Malayalam, which was a dialect of Tamil 1000 years ago, also retains a huge inherited Dravidian vocabulary). If one goes to a village and encounters the (rare) illiterate Malayali, one would discover that while that person might not know all the Sanskrit words used in a scholarly essay, he or she can still use the language for expressing quite complicated ideas. Sadly, neo- Sanskrit seems incapable of being used this way. It is a consciously dumbed-down language that eschews its own grand tradition. If people enjoy learning it in a rudimentary way to express simple things, obviously there's nothing wrong with that. The problem as I see it lies in the fact that these "Sanskrit" speakers often think that just because they use the language in a rudimentary way, they are somehow connecting with the great intellectual tradition that the language contains. Or, worse, that they are embodiments of some "Hindu-ness" that is inherent in the language. Their rudimentary use of the language fosters a kind of arrogance and sense of superiority that is unwarranted. I remember reading the Rasagangadhara with Pandit Seshadrinathan and remarking on the breathtaking boldness of the beginning verses. When I suggested that Jagannatha seemed a bit arrogant and overbearing, Seshadrinathan remarked "sthaane." Yes, if someone knows Sanskrit 5% as well as Jagannatha, then he or she is entitled to be proud. Saying "How many idlis did you eat today?" in neo-Sanskrit may be fun, but it's hardly grounds for the sort of overweening pride that such speakers often seem to project. George Hart On Aug 13, 2008, at 3:33 AM, adheesh sathaye wrote: > Dear Profs. Hart, Nair, and Sandahl, and colleagues, > > With all due respect, I find it hard to accept that the construction > of neologisms like 'seva-phala', 'iDDali' or even misuses like > 'mahAla' are in any way indicative of 'ignorant Hindutva forces'. It > is not at all uncommon to see vernacular words or forms used within > medieval Sanskrit manuscripts, and particularly when the concept > does not occur in classical Sanskrit. Certain MSS of zivadAsa's or > jambhaladatta's vetAla-paJcaviMzati, for example, appear to be > replete with north Indian vernacular 'loan-words' and shoddy, Hindi- > or Marathi-based grammatical forms. This is just the tip of the > iceberg. Moreover, contemporary spoken Sanskrit is quite obviously > and self-consciously a simplification of classical Sanskrit, and > this has been done in order for the language to be more accessible > and appealing to young, twenty-first century students, who WOULD > like to express their thoughts about riding the bus, eating apples, > using computers, and other modern-day activities. It's actually > quite a fun thing to do. > > One must, it is true, engage in this linguistic practice knowing > full well that what one is speaking is a hybridized and simplified > form of the classical parole, and this I think is where some of the > Hindu nationalist ideological projects are indeed harmful, as Prof. > Nair points out, in representing spoken Sanskrit to the Indian > public as being both authentic and Hindu. What's most disturbing to > me about the Hindu spoken Sanskrit movement is not how the language > is treated, but how many textbooks attempt to naturalize (and > nationalize) upper-caste, puritanical Hindu practices through > language teaching. > > On the other hand, may I respectfully suggest that the idea that the > ancientness of Sanskrit somehow debilitates this language from > accepting neologisms, or makes it useless for expressing modern > ideas, itself might be construed as an act of intellectual violence > on par with 'cutting throats', 'demolishing mosques', or 'raping > nuns'? Clearly, as scholars of classical Sanskrit, we have an > obligation to continue to teach students how to read and understand > kAlidAsa, bANa, or perhaps even the magisterial ZrIharSa--but can > this teaching not occur side-by-side with an acceptance of a > consciously different register of the Sanskrit language, albeit > contrived and manufactured, for contemporary, everyday usage? > Perhaps the latter might serve as a kind of gateway for the former? > > with best regards, > > Adheesh > -- > Dr. Adheesh Sathaye > Department of Asian Studies > University of British Columbia > 408 Asian Centre > 1871 West Mall > Vancouver, BC V6T 1Z2 > 604.822.5188 > adheesh at interchange.ubc.ca > > > > On Aug 13, 2008, at 8:49 , Stella Sandahl wrote: > >> >> It is very sad to se how the ignorant Hindutva forces demean and >> make the wonderful classical language into something trivial and >> ridiculous. How do we stop them? >> How can we rescue Sanskrit from these vandals? I doubt that the >> sevaphalAni-eating student in his mahala can read and understand >> even one line by Kalidasa or Bana or Jayadeva. >> But he can cut the throat of those who cannot speak his so called >> Sanskrit. When he is not busy demolishing mosques and raping nuns. >> >> Stella Sandahl >> >> >> -- >> Professor Stella Sandahl >> Department of East Asian Studies >> 130 St. George St. room 14087 >> Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 >> ssandahl at sympatico.ca >> stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca >> Tel. (416) 978-4295 >> Fax. (416) 978-5711 >> From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Wed Aug 13 15:06:47 2008 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 08 08:06:47 -0700 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit and Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <0CA4AC63-7635-4390-81BE-4B28821AEE0E@ocf.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227083196.23782.1035631072433655791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for so many posts, but I think this may be useful to someone. Years ago, when I was reading from Ramanuja's Sribhasya, I noticed that his usages often mirror the Sanskrit that is still spoken by the pandits in Chennai. For example, the word "samiiciina" for "fine," "good," "excellent" is used by that writer. On the other hand, Sankara's Sanskrit does not seem to be connected with the Sanskrit I heard in Chennai -- its style and word usage is quite different. This suggests that there is a continuous tradition of spoken Sanskrit that developed in Tamil Nadu 1000 years ago and still continues today. The Sanskrit used in Kerala was probably rather different (something also suggested by my very superficial acquaintance with the Manipravala works of 4 or 500 years ago). Certainly, in many parts of India and Nepal, Sanskrit has been used as a spoken language for a long time. It would seem that each area has developed its own style and word usage. As we know, the pandits of one area often look down at the Sanskrit (esp. pronunciation) of pandits from other areas. There is a wonderful sloka that can be used when teaching beginning Sanskrit -- but I have forgotten the details of the story that goes along with it. Perhaps someone can recall it. Someone, wanting to show off to Kalidasa how much Sanskrit he knew, said, "bhojanam dehi raajendra ghrtasuupasamanvitam." Kalidasa is supposed to have replied "maahiSam ca zaraccandracandrikaadhavalam dadhi." Of course, the first utterance is ungainly and awkward, while the second flows like moonlight. The dhvani, according to my pandit, is that Kalidasa is implying that the would-be Sanskrit speaker is stupid and slow, as buffalo yogurt is supposed to dull the mind. George Hart From hhhock at EXPRESS.CITES.UIUC.EDU Wed Aug 13 15:31:11 2008 From: hhhock at EXPRESS.CITES.UIUC.EDU (hhhock) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 08 10:31:11 -0500 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit and Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <757E4EE5-0F32-4C11-AC7C-B50B7FF56CD9@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227083198.23782.6149718960873176378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The thread on spoken Sanskrit has been very interesting, and some points strike me as quite a propos. First, I don't see any problems with neologisms. Even if we ignore the sometimes controversial examples of supposed Dravidian borrowing in early Vedic and the much less controversial ones in later Vedic and post-Vedic (such as niira-), or the late borrowings from North Indian languages in late Sanskrit texts, there is evidence for borrowing at many other stages, and in many different spheres (consider e.g. (tri-)koNa, horaa and the like, from Greek). Moreover, if Sanskrit is to be used in a modern context, not only to discuss fine points of philosophy or grammar, it has to be modernized to make it possible to talk about trains, apples, and the like (and hybrids like relayaana strike me as much more felicitous than words such as agniratha(...)yaana). There is a problem, however, as far as the lexicon goes, namely the whole- scale importation of Sanskrit-derived Hindi, Marathi, etc. words into Sanskrit, with their modern meanings, rather than the use of established Sanskrit words (consider the use of aarambha instead of utsava in the Hindi-speaking area). While Sanskrit needs to be modernized, it does not need to be intellectualized, thank you; it always has been perfectly capable to deal with intellectual issues. Second, I agree that the kind of spoken Sanskrit that is being propagated by Hindutva organizations is grammatically, lexically, and intellectually without merit, not far removed from a pidgin form of the language. The fact that it does not provide a useful entry to the full form of the language, as found in the philosophical, religious, and literary tradition of India (not to speak of the vast range of technical literature), supports the view that the motivation for this enterprise is not to connect modern Indians with their traditions but to give Hindus (or better: Hindutvavaadins) a false, manufactured sense of identity. (I should add that the founders of this movement, such as Krishna Shastri, had a much fuller grasp of the language and spoke it very well.) Best wishes, Hans On 13 Aug 2008, at 9:27, George Hart wrote: > Years ago, the late highly learned Sanskrit scholar Dr. Janaki > stayed at our house. She showed me a column she had written in > Sanskrit about the McEnroe - Borg tennis competition. Her command > of the language was awesome -- she was capable to expressing just > about anything, using the full resources of the language. I still > remember getting up one morning about 6:00 and encountering a > bright-eyed Janaki chattering away in fluent (and extremely rapid) > Sanskrit, and struggling with little success to process what she > said in my still numbed state. The problem, I feel, with the kind > of spoken Sanskrit we're talking about is not that it borrows Hindi > words or Tamil syntax. As Adheesh says, Sanskrit has been > borrowing or innovating since the beginning (many of its most > common words are Dravidian). The problem is that spoken "Sanskrit" > is incapable of expressing a complex thought -- "How many Idlis did > you eat today" is not exactly a profound idea. Real languages are > highly complex because they need to be used to express complex > ideas. Sanskrit is no exception. As Prof. Nair notes, languages > such as Malayalam can make use of the entire Sanskrit vocabulary to > express thoughts that are extremely complicated (one might also > remark that Malayalam, which was a dialect of Tamil 1000 years ago, > also retains a huge inherited Dravidian vocabulary). If one goes > to a village and encounters the (rare) illiterate Malayali, one > would discover that while that person might not know all the > Sanskrit words used in a scholarly essay, he or she can still use > the language for expressing quite complicated ideas. Sadly, neo- > Sanskrit seems incapable of being used this way. It is a > consciously dumbed-down language that eschews its own grand > tradition. If people enjoy learning it in a rudimentary way to > express simple things, obviously there's nothing wrong with that. > The problem as I see it lies in the fact that these "Sanskrit" > speakers often think that just because they use the language in a > rudimentary way, they are somehow connecting with the great > intellectual tradition that the language contains. Or, worse, that > they are embodiments of some "Hindu-ness" that is inherent in the > language. Their rudimentary use of the language fosters a kind of > arrogance and sense of superiority that is unwarranted. I remember > reading the Rasagangadhara with Pandit Seshadrinathan and remarking > on the breathtaking boldness of the beginning verses. When I > suggested that Jagannatha seemed a bit arrogant and overbearing, > Seshadrinathan remarked "sthaane." Yes, if someone knows Sanskrit > 5% as well as Jagannatha, then he or she is entitled to be proud. > Saying "How many idlis did you eat today?" in neo-Sanskrit may be > fun, but it's hardly grounds for the sort of overweening pride that > such speakers often seem to project. > > George Hart > > > On Aug 13, 2008, at 3:33 AM, adheesh sathaye wrote: > >> Dear Profs. Hart, Nair, and Sandahl, and colleagues, >> >> With all due respect, I find it hard to accept that the >> construction of neologisms like 'seva-phala', 'iDDali' or even >> misuses like 'mahAla' are in any way indicative of 'ignorant >> Hindutva forces'. It is not at all uncommon to see vernacular >> words or forms used within medieval Sanskrit manuscripts, and >> particularly when the concept does not occur in classical >> Sanskrit. Certain MSS of zivadAsa's or jambhaladatta's vetAla- >> paJcaviMzati, for example, appear to be replete with north Indian >> vernacular 'loan-words' and shoddy, Hindi- or Marathi-based >> grammatical forms. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Moreover, >> contemporary spoken Sanskrit is quite obviously and self- >> consciously a simplification of classical Sanskrit, and this has >> been done in order for the language to be more accessible and >> appealing to young, twenty-first century students, who WOULD like >> to express their thoughts about riding the bus, eating apples, >> using computers, and other modern-day activities. It's actually >> quite a fun thing to do. >> >> One must, it is true, engage in this linguistic practice knowing >> full well that what one is speaking is a hybridized and simplified >> form of the classical parole, and this I think is where some of >> the Hindu nationalist ideological projects are indeed harmful, as >> Prof. Nair points out, in representing spoken Sanskrit to the >> Indian public as being both authentic and Hindu. What's most >> disturbing to me about the Hindu spoken Sanskrit movement is not >> how the language is treated, but how many textbooks attempt to >> naturalize (and nationalize) upper-caste, puritanical Hindu >> practices through language teaching. >> >> On the other hand, may I respectfully suggest that the idea that >> the ancientness of Sanskrit somehow debilitates this language from >> accepting neologisms, or makes it useless for expressing modern >> ideas, itself might be construed as an act of intellectual >> violence on par with 'cutting throats', 'demolishing mosques', or >> 'raping nuns'? Clearly, as scholars of classical Sanskrit, we have >> an obligation to continue to teach students how to read and >> understand kAlidAsa, bANa, or perhaps even the magisterial >> ZrIharSa--but can this teaching not occur side-by-side with an >> acceptance of a consciously different register of the Sanskrit >> language, albeit contrived and manufactured, for contemporary, >> everyday usage? Perhaps the latter might serve as a kind of >> gateway for the former? >> >> with best regards, >> >> Adheesh >> -- >> Dr. Adheesh Sathaye >> Department of Asian Studies >> University of British Columbia >> 408 Asian Centre >> 1871 West Mall >> Vancouver, BC V6T 1Z2 >> 604.822.5188 >> adheesh at interchange.ubc.ca >> >> >> >> On Aug 13, 2008, at 8:49 , Stella Sandahl wrote: >> >>> >>> It is very sad to se how the ignorant Hindutva forces demean and >>> make the wonderful classical language into something trivial and >>> ridiculous. How do we stop them? >>> How can we rescue Sanskrit from these vandals? I doubt that the >>> sevaphalAni-eating student in his mahala can read and understand >>> even one line by Kalidasa or Bana or Jayadeva. >>> But he can cut the throat of those who cannot speak his so called >>> Sanskrit. When he is not busy demolishing mosques and raping nuns. >>> >>> Stella Sandahl >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Professor Stella Sandahl >>> Department of East Asian Studies >>> 130 St. George St. room 14087 >>> Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 >>> ssandahl at sympatico.ca >>> stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca >>> Tel. (416) 978-4295 >>> Fax. (416) 978-5711 >>> From phmaas at ARCOR.DE Wed Aug 13 09:03:31 2008 From: phmaas at ARCOR.DE (Philipp Maas) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 08 11:03:31 +0200 Subject: AW: Spoken Sanskrit and Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083185.23782.17052128396271913397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Sandahl, I think that we should be careful not to be discriminatory against those who use Sanskrit in a creative, modernist fashion. The use of Sanskrit as a spoken language, whether as standard Sanskrit or as a vulgarized idiom, is not per se a political statement and it does not per se reveal a tendency to approve of or even to commit political violence. In spite of everything that Sanskrit may symbolize, it remains a language that serves the purpose of expressing thoughts. And the freedom of thought includes, of course, the freedom to choose one's language. With best regards, Philipp Maas > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk]Im Auftrag von Stella > Sandahl > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. August 2008 09:50 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: Spoken Sanskrit and Spoken Sanskrit > > > In the current debate about "spoken Sanskrit" I believe we are > talking about two different things. It is one thing when for example > a Bengali pandit speaks to Telugu pandit in Sanskrit in order to > debate finer points in a text, or a philosophical issue, a literary > allusion and so forth. Sanskrit is then their common language, a > language of learning, of elegance and wit. And this is quite wonderful. > > It is an entirely different matter to try to revive and 'modernize' > Sanskrit. Lying on a table in our university library I found a > typical example of the latter. There were new-fangled "Sanskrit" > words for money order, check-out counter, bus station, bank draft - > as if one finds these things in classical Sanskrit texts! These > manuals are quite ridiculous: I found a sentence like ahaM > sevaphalAni khAdAmi which was supposed to mean 'I eat apples'. First, > as far as I know there were no apples in classical India (weren't > they brought in by Babur?), second the word seva is obviously modeled > on Hindi seb 'apple' from the Persian sib with the same meaning. This > is exactly in line with the examples given by Professor Nair: "adya > kati iddali bhakshitam?" "adya chayam piitam kim?", equally > ridiculous. My niece in Delhi once asked to help her with her > Sanskrit homework. She had to translate the sentence "Kings live in > palaces" into Sanskrit. The word given by the teacher for palace was > 'mahala' !!! I tried to convince the little girl that there was no > such word in Sanskrit. In vain. The girl said :"teacher says it is > mahala", and that was what it had to be. > > It is very sad to se how the ignorant Hindutva forces demean and make > the wonderful classical language into something trivial and > ridiculous. How do we stop them? > How can we rescue Sanskrit from these vandals? I doubt that the > sevaphalAni-eating student in his mahala can read and understand even > one line by Kalidasa or Bana or Jayadeva. > But he can cut the throat of those who cannot speak his so called > Sanskrit. When he is not busy demolishing mosques and raping nuns. > > Stella Sandahl > > > -- > Professor Stella Sandahl > Department of East Asian Studies > 130 St. George St. room 14087 > Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca > Tel. (416) 978-4295 > Fax. (416) 978-5711 > From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Wed Aug 13 09:05:30 2008 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 08 11:05:30 +0200 Subject: Good news about Sarasvati Mahal Library, Thanjavur Message-ID: <161227083187.23782.18182217218558485682.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Look at: http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/13/stories/2008081354670600.htm (sad news about Amaravati sculptures in neglect in Madras Museum at: http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/13/stories/2008081351130500.htm With best wishes, Christophe Vielle -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Aug 13 10:07:01 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 08 11:07:01 +0100 Subject: Electronic version of Mani's Puranic Encyclopaedia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083189.23782.12631219896521097147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The full text of this work has also been digitized (page images) and is available as a downloadable, non-searchable PDF. http://www.archive.org/details/puranicencyclopa00maniuoft -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow University College London On Tue, 12 Aug 2008, Christophe Vielle wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > on the NITAAI Veda web-site ("The comprehensive Vedic knowledge Base", > "compiled by devotees of lords Nityananda Gauranga"), there is a nearly > complete electronic input (without diacritics, and many misprints) of the > English version of Ve.t.tam Maa.ni's Puranic Encyclopaedia (originally > published in Malayaa.lam). See > http://nitaaiveda.com/All_Scriptures_By_Acharyas/Puranas/Puranic_Encyclopedia/ > > With best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > > From adheesh at OCF.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Aug 13 10:33:20 2008 From: adheesh at OCF.BERKELEY.EDU (adheesh sathaye) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 08 11:33:20 +0100 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit and Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083191.23782.12745221386670307026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Profs. Hart, Nair, and Sandahl, and colleagues, With all due respect, I find it hard to accept that the construction of neologisms like 'seva-phala', 'iDDali' or even misuses like 'mahAla' are in any way indicative of 'ignorant Hindutva forces'. It is not at all uncommon to see vernacular words or forms used within medieval Sanskrit manuscripts, and particularly when the concept does not occur in classical Sanskrit. Certain MSS of zivadAsa's or jambhaladatta's vetAla-paJcaviMzati, for example, appear to be replete with north Indian vernacular 'loan-words' and shoddy, Hindi- or Marathi-based grammatical forms. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Moreover, contemporary spoken Sanskrit is quite obviously and self-consciously a simplification of classical Sanskrit, and this has been done in order for the language to be more accessible and appealing to young, twenty-first century students, who WOULD like to express their thoughts about riding the bus, eating apples, using computers, and other modern-day activities. It's actually quite a fun thing to do. One must, it is true, engage in this linguistic practice knowing full well that what one is speaking is a hybridized and simplified form of the classical parole, and this I think is where some of the Hindu nationalist ideological projects are indeed harmful, as Prof. Nair points out, in representing spoken Sanskrit to the Indian public as being both authentic and Hindu. What's most disturbing to me about the Hindu spoken Sanskrit movement is not how the language is treated, but how many textbooks attempt to naturalize (and nationalize) upper-caste, puritanical Hindu practices through language teaching. On the other hand, may I respectfully suggest that the idea that the ancientness of Sanskrit somehow debilitates this language from accepting neologisms, or makes it useless for expressing modern ideas, itself might be construed as an act of intellectual violence on par with 'cutting throats', 'demolishing mosques', or 'raping nuns'? Clearly, as scholars of classical Sanskrit, we have an obligation to continue to teach students how to read and understand kAlidAsa, bANa, or perhaps even the magisterial ZrIharSa--but can this teaching not occur side-by-side with an acceptance of a consciously different register of the Sanskrit language, albeit contrived and manufactured, for contemporary, everyday usage? Perhaps the latter might serve as a kind of gateway for the former? with best regards, Adheesh -- Dr. Adheesh Sathaye Department of Asian Studies University of British Columbia 408 Asian Centre 1871 West Mall Vancouver, BC V6T 1Z2 604.822.5188 adheesh at interchange.ubc.ca On Aug 13, 2008, at 8:49 , Stella Sandahl wrote: > > It is very sad to se how the ignorant Hindutva forces demean and > make the wonderful classical language into something trivial and > ridiculous. How do we stop them? > How can we rescue Sanskrit from these vandals? I doubt that the > sevaphalAni-eating student in his mahala can read and understand > even one line by Kalidasa or Bana or Jayadeva. > But he can cut the throat of those who cannot speak his so called > Sanskrit. When he is not busy demolishing mosques and raping nuns. > > Stella Sandahl > > > -- > Professor Stella Sandahl > Department of East Asian Studies > 130 St. George St. room 14087 > Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca > Tel. (416) 978-4295 > Fax. (416) 978-5711 > From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Wed Aug 13 06:42:17 2008 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 08 12:12:17 +0530 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <8D2D141A-D9FE-4EA5-B0B0-ADB53C1A0B7A@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227083180.23782.8197691578613420219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, In Malayalam, my native tongue, 60 to 70 percent words of the language of an educated Malayalee are Sanskrit. In many Indian languages the state of this affair will slightly change. Such people need not make Sanskrit their spoken language. There is hidden agenda behind popularising spoken Sanskrit. Hindu revivalists and communalists are popularising it. They have organizations for the same. At times of mass murders of people belonging to other religions there is need to distinguish them. "Interested parties" have plans to make Sanskrit the national language of India. A time may come when during purposely created communal riots, the question will be put "bhavaan samskrtam janaati kim?" Those who reply in the affirmative in Sanskrit will be spared and others will be butchered. I am also fluent in Sanskrit and have evolved an easy method for teaching Spoken Sanskrit, not the spoken Sanskrit popularised by the revivalists which is like "adya kati iddali bhakshitam?" "adya chayam piitam kim?". Regards K.Maheswaran Nair Professor of Sanskrit University of Kerala India Quoting George Hart : > I myself once encountered someone from Karnataka who lived in the > village where "Sanskrit" is spoken. It was a dumbed-down language not > much resembling (in my opinion) the eloquent tongue used by Kalidasa > and Sankara -- or even the epics. It dispenses with such frills as the > dual and many verb forms. I asked him if he had read Sanskrit > literature -- poetry, darsana, whatever. He seemed nonplussed by the > question -- he spoke Sanskrit; why should he read Kalidasa? I felt he > was entirely ignorant of the intellectual grandeur and scope of the > language and spoke it (or his version of it) merely to make a > statement. I would remark parenthetically that the use of Sanskrit in > a Malayalam historical novel I once read -- including 3-line Sanskrit > compounds -- was far more sophisticated than this "Sanskrit" speaker > could have managed. If he had studied the literature of Kannada -- > which I suspect was his real native language -- his Sanskrit would > certainly have been much better. George Hart > > On Aug 11, 2008, at 12:47 AM, veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: > >> dear friends, >> welcome to such new studies. >> but is is difficult for a naiyayika to imagine ritual transformation of >> household in the context of modern sanskrit revivalism. Since I know >> personally many sanskrit families here, it is nothing but some kind of >> national revivalism. >> thanks >> veeranarayana >> >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >> >>> >>> There's an interesting set of reflections on the topic here: >>> >>> Journal of Linguistic Anthropology >>> June 2008, Vol. 18, No. 1, pp. 24-45 >>> Posted online on July 28, 2008. >>> (doi:10.1111/j.1548-1395.2008.00002.x) >>> >>> Licked by the Mother Tongue: Imagining Everyday Sanskrit at Home and in the >>> World >>> by Adi Hastings >>> >>> Abstract: >>> This paper examines the ways in which Sanskrit revivalists in contemporary >>> India imagine social contexts for the production and reproduction of >>> Sanskrit speech. In contrast to the received view of Sanskrit as being a >>> ritual language par excellence, opposed at every step to the >>> domestic sphere >>> and everyday life, Sanskrit revivalists treat Sanskrit as a >>> "mother tongue," >>> figuring the home as the primary site for the creation of an "everyday >>> Sanskrit" world and the mother as the primary agent of this process of >>> Sanskritizing the domestic sphere. "Domesticating Sanskrit," the process of >>> bringing the elevated ritual language down into everyday life, at the very >>> same time "Sanskritizes the domestic," that is, ritually transforms or >>> elevates the home into a "Sanskrit home." Moving outward from the >>> Sanskritized domestic sphere, activists also imagine other >>> contexts in which >>> one could use Sanskrit, which nonetheless conforms to a notion of >>> a Sanskrit >>> interiority or domesticity. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >>> Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow >>> University College London >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi >> Head, Dept of Darshanas, >> Yoganandacharya Bhavan, >> Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post >> Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 17:42:37 2008 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 08 19:42:37 +0200 Subject: Modern and Ancient use of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227083200.23782.971366349618918328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I. sa.msk.rta-bhaa.saa m.rta-bhaa.saiveti [-eva!-iti] ke cin manyante / bhaarata-de;se tu bahava.h ;saastri.no jaina-munaya.h kavayo 'nye ca sa.msk.rta-vaktaara.h santiiti mayaiva d.r.s.ta.m ca ;sruta.m ca / tasmaad sa.msk.rta-bhaa.saam.rta-bhaa.seva [-iva!] jiivaty eva, yadi vaabhii.s.taanabhii.s.taa vaa // II. The Atlas des langues du monde by Roland Breton (Paris 2003), small but unsurpassed (in some respects not even by the World Atlas of Language Structures), lists sanskrit as "extinct" on page 12, but elsewhere (p. 55) notes that there are 60.000 speakers (according to the 2001 census). The online Ethnologue (www.ethnologue.com) of the Summer Institute of Linguistics (with a staff inspired by Christianity, noting for each language when the first bible translation was made: for Sanskrit this was 1822) registers a "population" (sic) of 6106 speakers (based on the 1981 census) and 194,433 second language speakers. (Less clear to me is that this website notes for Sanskrit: Literacy rate in first language: 60% to 100%. Literacy rate in second language: 15% to 25% literate.) III. Through the ages Sanskrit has been employed, orally and in writing, in various ways by learned and less learned speakers. Attempts to teach "correct" Sanskrit are as old, yes even older than the name Sanskrit (as "sa.msk.rtam" replaces the earlier name "bhaa.saa") for the language which in spite of various differences remains largely understandable over the centuries. From a sociolinguistic point of view there is little reason to take pride in a half year of speaking ;suddha.m sa.msk.rtam and to look down on those employing and enjoying, in preceding centuries and at present, sarala.m sa.msk.rtam, not in order to advertise pedantic erudition but parasparaabhipraayasammelanaartham ... as little as there is reason to look down on the expressive popular ("vulgar") latin employed in graffiti in Pompei or Rome around the time of Cicero. On the contrary: these are interesting and important subjects for (socio-linguistic) study. When it was discovered now two centuries ago in "the West" Sanskrit has inspired generations of linguists, first of all the historical comparativists (Bopp et al.), next the generative grammarians (see introductory paragraph of Kiparsky's On the architecture of Panini's grammar). The rich treasure grove of Sanskrit literatures has not yet been made use of from the point of view of other branches of modern language sciences to which it has a potential to contribute significantly as well. As for sociolinguistics and sociology of language, see nevertheless several articles of H.H. Hock (I hope he will bundle them some time), Madhav Deshpande's Sanskrit & Prakrit (Delhi 1993) and various articles, the book on Ideology and Status of Sanskrit (edited by me in 1996), and now Pollock's The Language of the Gods in the World of Men (Univ of California 2006). As for Sanskrit and cognitive linguistics see my forthcoming article "Bhartrhari as a cognitive linguist", which implies that Paa.nini's grammar can in a revolutionary way be seen as a construction grammar; and that there is NO place for a "structure given before hand", as implied in the famous words of William Jones: (1786): "The Sanskrit language, whatever may be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure.". IV. Through the ages Sanskrit has been used to express various extreme and maadhyamaka messages. In current times Sanskrit has been used to express the views of various extremities: G.B; Palsule's Vainaayakam: an epic description of the life of Sarvarkar (Pune, 1998); a certain Padma Sastri's Leninaamr.tam published at VVRI in Hoshiarpur (1973) etc. Scholarly and scientific works have currently been published in Sanskrit as well: Palsule's work on Indo-european linguistics entitled Yubhaata.h sa.msk.rtam prati; the book Kaa.naada.m paa.niniiya.m ca sarva;saastropakaarakam edited by Maheswaran Nair. Whether one likes it or not: Sanskrit does have a sociolinguistic reality, it is, to use a metaphor from biology, a "living" phenomenon that includes grammar-independent use of the language. Moreover, as McComas Taylor wrote somewhere on the ANU homepage, the chance that future generations will understand a thought expressed in Sanskrit, again whether one likes it or not, is considerably bigger than that they will understand the same thought expressed in English: "In 1,000 years time, Sanskrit will still be the same, but every other language will have changed beyond recognition." V. As for *spoken* sanskrit, various attempts have been made to teach and promote it, for instance in the Giirvaa.napadama?jarii and the Giirvaa.navaa:nma?jarii (prob. early 17th cent.) discussed by A. Wezler (Ideology and Status of Sanskrit p. 327ff). Teaching material of Aksara, Bangalore, is interesting as object of study but, if taken in isolation, not the most suitable for serious Sanskrit students. On the other hand, Aksara's staff and Svayamsevak funders may have an objectionable agenda, but their proselytizing may have quite different effects than foreseen by them. Did Pa.nini plan to help Buddhists and Jainas to get their message in relatively reliable way across, synchronically and diachronically? If Panini had any agenda beyond writing his grammar it must have been to reinforce traditional Brahmanism. In any case, there are other books for teaching Sanskrit. A praiseworthy modern attempt is: Sa.msk.rtavyavahaara.h / Spoken Sanskrit by S.S. Janaki published in Madras at The Kuppuswami Sastri Research Institute, 1990. The older generations of "Western" Sanskrit teachers could afford to escape learning spoken Sanskrit, but at present do serious university teachers of sanskrit have a valid excuse not to master and impart at least some sarala.m sa.msk.rtam to the students, in addition to the analytical knowledge of the language derived from the study of sanskrit grammars such as those of ... (see preceding discussion on this list, and add: J. Gonda's grammar, available in German, French, English)? At present spoken sanskrit remains a disputed domain of "symbolic capital" in india and a fascinating hobby for western students, quite useful for increasing one's grasp of the language. JH From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Thu Aug 14 02:02:45 2008 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 08 03:02:45 +0100 Subject: Birds in Sanskrit Literature Message-ID: <161227083202.23782.1399004103220891416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Does anybody have a copy of Dave's "Birds in Sanskrit Literature" to hand" ? If so, could you do me a kindness ? I would like to know what he says about the "kaara.n.dava" and the "cakravaaka". The "kaara.n.dava" is often identified with the "cakravaaka", but it also seems to be a different bird on occasion as I have encountered the two names side by side in texts. Many thanks in advance. Stephen Hodge From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu Aug 14 06:56:48 2008 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 08 08:56:48 +0200 Subject: Birds in Sanskrit Literature In-Reply-To: <01ea01c8fdb1$d8da19f0$05437257@zen> Message-ID: <161227083207.23782.14739992369002607299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No specific identification with cakravaaka is made, but k. is used as a generic term for swans geese and ducks. With best wishes, EF Zitat von Stephen Hodge : > Dear Colleagues, > > Does anybody have a copy of Dave's "Birds in Sanskrit Literature" to > hand" ? If so, could you do me a kindness ? > > I would like to know what he says about the "kaara.n.dava" and the > "cakravaaka". The "kaara.n.dava" is often identified with the > "cakravaaka", but it also seems to be a different bird on occasion as I > have encountered the two names side by side in texts. > > Many thanks in advance. > > Stephen Hodge ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 04:01:33 2008 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 08 09:31:33 +0530 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <20080813121217.y1dx70rew40gcccs@webmail.asianetindia.com> Message-ID: <161227083204.23782.571564069465863729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear friends, it is too much imaginative to think that one day non sanskritists will be butchered. you can ask a typical communal riotist for example whether he has any distant knowledge of sanskrit or not. No body of these riotors has sent his son or dauthter to study the sanskrit, I am sure. But many of these people make a big announcement on sanskrit, of course. but not the really related with it. on the contrary those spreading vilolence etc. have different mottos and the people spreading sanskrit awareness are from really other backgrounds, mostly from educational. even many people from other communities (christia etc) are also involved in this kind of creating awareness, many I know from kerala itself. The sanskrit education itself is for world peace and not for violence. those doing this kind of propogation get nothing in return (monitory or otherwise). they are working on the theme to cultural unitary identity of india just for there interest and nothing else. one more interesting fact is even sanskrit universities use the spoken sanskrit program to educate their first year students (from other background) in sanskrit in initial days. that makes them free to mingle with sanskrit students easily and understand the classes. veera On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Maheswaran Nair wrote: > Hello, > > In Malayalam, my native tongue, 60 to 70 percent words of the language of > an educated Malayalee are Sanskrit. In many Indian languages the state of > this affair will slightly change. Such people need not make Sanskrit their > spoken language. There is hidden agenda behind popularising spoken Sanskrit. > Hindu revivalists and communalists are popularising it. They have > organizations for the same. At times of mass murders of people belonging to > other religions there is need to distinguish them. "Interested parties" have > plans to make Sanskrit the national language of India. A time may come when > during purposely created communal riots, the question will be put "bhavaan > samskrtam janaati kim?" Those who reply in the affirmative in Sanskrit will > be spared and others will be butchered. > I am also fluent in Sanskrit and have evolved an easy method for teaching > Spoken Sanskrit, not the spoken Sanskrit popularised by the revivalists > which is like "adya kati iddali bhakshitam?" "adya chayam piitam kim?". > Regards > K.Maheswaran Nair > Professor of Sanskrit > University of Kerala > India > > > > > Quoting George Hart : > > I myself once encountered someone from Karnataka who lived in the >> village where "Sanskrit" is spoken. It was a dumbed-down language not >> much resembling (in my opinion) the eloquent tongue used by Kalidasa >> and Sankara -- or even the epics. It dispenses with such frills as the >> dual and many verb forms. I asked him if he had read Sanskrit >> literature -- poetry, darsana, whatever. He seemed nonplussed by the >> question -- he spoke Sanskrit; why should he read Kalidasa? I felt he >> was entirely ignorant of the intellectual grandeur and scope of the >> language and spoke it (or his version of it) merely to make a >> statement. I would remark parenthetically that the use of Sanskrit in >> a Malayalam historical novel I once read -- including 3-line Sanskrit >> compounds -- was far more sophisticated than this "Sanskrit" speaker >> could have managed. If he had studied the literature of Kannada -- >> which I suspect was his real native language -- his Sanskrit would >> certainly have been much better. George Hart >> >> On Aug 11, 2008, at 12:47 AM, veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: >> >> dear friends, >>> welcome to such new studies. >>> but is is difficult for a naiyayika to imagine ritual transformation of >>> household in the context of modern sanskrit revivalism. Since I know >>> personally many sanskrit families here, it is nothing but some kind of >>> national revivalism. >>> thanks >>> veeranarayana >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Dominik Wujastyk >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> There's an interesting set of reflections on the topic here: >>>> >>>> Journal of Linguistic Anthropology >>>> June 2008, Vol. 18, No. 1, pp. 24-45 >>>> Posted online on July 28, 2008. >>>> (doi:10.1111/j.1548-1395.2008.00002.x) >>>> >>>> Licked by the Mother Tongue: Imagining Everyday Sanskrit at Home and in >>>> the >>>> World >>>> by Adi Hastings >>>> >>>> Abstract: >>>> This paper examines the ways in which Sanskrit revivalists in >>>> contemporary >>>> India imagine social contexts for the production and reproduction of >>>> Sanskrit speech. In contrast to the received view of Sanskrit as being a >>>> ritual language par excellence, opposed at every step to the domestic >>>> sphere >>>> and everyday life, Sanskrit revivalists treat Sanskrit as a "mother >>>> tongue," >>>> figuring the home as the primary site for the creation of an "everyday >>>> Sanskrit" world and the mother as the primary agent of this process of >>>> Sanskritizing the domestic sphere. "Domesticating Sanskrit," the process >>>> of >>>> bringing the elevated ritual language down into everyday life, at the >>>> very >>>> same time "Sanskritizes the domestic," that is, ritually transforms or >>>> elevates the home into a "Sanskrit home." Moving outward from the >>>> Sanskritized domestic sphere, activists also imagine other contexts in >>>> which >>>> one could use Sanskrit, which nonetheless conforms to a notion of a >>>> Sanskrit >>>> interiority or domesticity. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >>>> Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow >>>> University College London >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi >>> Head, Dept of Darshanas, >>> Yoganandacharya Bhavan, >>> Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post >>> Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. >>> >> -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From meulnbld at XS4ALL.NL Thu Aug 14 10:00:51 2008 From: meulnbld at XS4ALL.NL (G.J. Meulenbeld) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 08 12:00:51 +0200 Subject: Birds in Sanskrit Literature Message-ID: <161227083209.23782.7377625686320097868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleague, Information on the identities of the kaara.n.dava and cakravaaka is available in my "A history of Indian medical literature", vol. IB, p.43, n.588 and p.46--47, n.611. Dave (299--301) identifies it as the coot. The Caraka translations of the Gulabkunverba team and by R.K. Sharma and Bhagwan Dash simply say goose without any specification. P.V. Sharma's translation has white-fronted goose; the same name is employed by P. Ray and H.N. Gupta in their Caraka Sa.mhitaa (A scientific synopsis). The white-fronted goose, Anser albifrons albifrons (Scopoli), however, is described as a sparse and rare winter visitor in northwest and northern India by S. Ali and S.D. Ripley in their "Handbook of the birds of India and Pakistan" (I, 126--128). All the sources mentioned on kaara.n.dava agree that the cakravaaka is the ruddy sheldrake, Tadorna ferruginea (Pallas), described in vol. 1, 141--144 of the work by S. Ali and S.D. Ripley. Caraka regards the two birds as distinct. With best wishes and regards, G. Jan Meulenbeld De Zwaan 11 9781 JX Bedum The Netherlands ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Hodge" To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 4:02 AM Subject: Birds in Sanskrit Literature > Dear Colleagues, > > Does anybody have a copy of Dave's "Birds in Sanskrit Literature" to hand" > ? If so, could you do me a kindness ? > > I would like to know what he says about the "kaara.n.dava" and the > "cakravaaka". The "kaara.n.dava" is often identified with the > "cakravaaka", but it also seems to be a different bird on occasion as I > have encountered the two names side by side in texts. > > Many thanks in advance. > > Stephen Hodge From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Thu Aug 14 11:00:55 2008 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 08 16:30:55 +0530 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <965fdc5f0808132101p42519b64wb4ae640c2f641a15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227083211.23782.16555608492589668779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list, I agree that Sanskrit teachers and students should surely learn to fluently communicate in Sanskrit. The present state (especialyy in Kerala)is deplorable. Objection is against utilising Sanskrit for "other" purposes. Hindutvavadins have specific agenda behind popularising Sanskrit. They have brought out many books among which a small one entitled "Samskrtam vada aadhuniko bhava"(published from Aluva, Kerala) contains their sectarian approach.They consider Sanskrit only as the cultural language of India which is far from truth. They paste everywhere a poster which reads "Samskrtam bharatasya samskrtikabhasha". What about other Indian languages? Making use of Sanskrit in place of Ramakshetra for demolishing Babrimasjid is objectionable. You know what happened in Gujarat. First the poster containing AUM was pasted in front of houses of Hindus as a distinguishing mark for the convenience of Hindu rioteers before "action". My humble doubt and fear is that Sanskrit will be used as a "marker" in the coming years.Let it not happen. Regards K.Maheswaran Nair Quoting veeranarayana Pandurangi : > dear friends, > it is too much imaginative to think that one day non sanskritists will be > butchered. you can ask a typical communal riotist for example whether he has > any distant knowledge of sanskrit or not. No body of these riotors has sent > his son or dauthter to study the sanskrit, I am sure. But many of these > people make a big announcement on sanskrit, of course. but not the really > related with it. > > > on the contrary those spreading vilolence etc. have different mottos and the > people spreading sanskrit awareness are from really other backgrounds, > mostly from educational. even many people from other communities (christia > etc) are also involved in this kind of creating awareness, many I know from > kerala itself. The sanskrit education itself is for world peace and not for > violence. those doing this kind of propogation get nothing in return > (monitory or otherwise). they are working on the theme to cultural unitary > identity of india just for there interest and nothing else. > > one more interesting fact is even sanskrit universities use the spoken > sanskrit program to educate their first year students (from other > background) in sanskrit in initial days. that makes them free to mingle with > sanskrit students easily and understand the classes. > veera From ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG Thu Aug 14 12:06:02 2008 From: ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG (Ganesan) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 08 17:36:02 +0530 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit and Spoken Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227083213.23782.13686396257325944981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Of course, the spoken Sanskrit courses which serve as introduction to the great language and which are mainly aimed to disprove the critics that Sanskrit was not and is never a spoken language should lead the learners to study the vast corpus of classical texts. But, the 'agenda' of the so called Hindutvavadi is not to 'demolish mosques or to rape nuns'. With all their obvious mistakes in some of their views they can not be outrightly condemned and they never resort to such demeaning acts. It is so strange that even after such horrific and barbaric terrorist acts being perpetrated in Kashmir still the Hindutvavadi is condemned for those crimes ('demolishing mosques or raping nuns') with which he has been proved subsequently to be not at all associated. !! Ganesh From: "Stella Sandahl" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 1:19 PM Subject: Spoken Sanskrit and Spoken Sanskrit > In the current debate about "spoken Sanskrit" I believe we are talking > about two different things. It is one thing when for example a Bengali > pandit speaks to Telugu pandit in Sanskrit in order to debate finer > points in a text, or a philosophical issue, a literary allusion and so > forth. Sanskrit is then their common language, a language of learning, of > elegance and wit. And this is quite wonderful. > > It is an entirely different matter to try to revive and 'modernize' > Sanskrit. Lying on a table in our university library I found a typical > example of the latter. There were new-fangled "Sanskrit" words for money > order, check-out counter, bus station, bank draft - as if one finds these > things in classical Sanskrit texts! These manuals are quite ridiculous: I > found a sentence like ahaM sevaphalAni khAdAmi which was supposed to mean > 'I eat apples'. First, as far as I know there were no apples in classical > India (weren't they brought in by Babur?), second the word seva is > obviously modeled on Hindi seb 'apple' from the Persian sib with the same > meaning. This is exactly in line with the examples given by Professor > Nair: "adya kati iddali bhakshitam?" "adya chayam piitam kim?", equally > ridiculous. My niece in Delhi once asked to help her with her Sanskrit > homework. She had to translate the sentence "Kings live in palaces" into > Sanskrit. The word given by the teacher for palace was 'mahala' !!! I > tried to convince the little girl that there was no such word in > Sanskrit. In vain. The girl said :"teacher says it is mahala", and that > was what it had to be. > > It is very sad to se how the ignorant Hindutva forces demean and make the > wonderful classical language into something trivial and ridiculous. How > do we stop them? > How can we rescue Sanskrit from these vandals? I doubt that the > sevaphalAni-eating student in his mahala can read and understand even one > line by Kalidasa or Bana or Jayadeva. > But he can cut the throat of those who cannot speak his so called > Sanskrit. When he is not busy demolishing mosques and raping nuns. > > Stella Sandahl > > > -- > Professor Stella Sandahl > Department of East Asian Studies > 130 St. George St. room 14087 > Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca > Tel. (416) 978-4295 > Fax. (416) 978-5711 > From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Fri Aug 15 01:11:42 2008 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 08 02:11:42 +0100 Subject: Birds in Sanskrit Literature Message-ID: <161227083215.23782.702612835284775965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the prompt replies. G.J. Meulenbeld wrote: > All the sources mentioned on kaara.n.dava agree that the cakravaaka is the > ruddy sheldrake, Tadorna ferruginea (Pallas), described in vol. 1, > 141--144 of the work by S. Ali and S.D. Ripley. The information provided tends to confirm my suspicions: the text I am studying has multiple authorship, with one person treating kaara.n.dava as a distinct bird, and another person who definiteley identifies kaara.n.dava with cakravaaka, going so far as to refer to "sa.mvaasa-kaara.n.da" after the well-known myth about cakravaalas. Many thanks, Stephen Hodge From tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU Fri Aug 15 07:46:50 2008 From: tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU (Mahadevan, Thennilapuram) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 08 03:46:50 -0400 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit and Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083217.23782.2616113432177593707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I concur with Professor Hart. I was at Kanchipuram about ten days ago to attend a sadas (214 particpants from allover South India, mostly from the Tamil country and none from Kerala) of the RV reciters. The sadas lasted three days, the samhita recitation on the first day, the krama the second day and the gana the third day. Part of the aim was for the professional vaidikans to raise questions regarding the minutiae of recitation: the questions would be handed overto an MC-like figure who would put it to the sadas and he would invite a known specialist to come forth an answer. The discussion was all but in Sanskrit with Tamil funcioning to provide a rough syntax. A Brahmanical coine. Best wishes, T. P. Mahadevan ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of George Hart [glhart at BERKELEY.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 11:06 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Spoken Sanskrit and Spoken Sanskrit Sorry for so many posts, but I think this may be useful to someone. Years ago, when I was reading from Ramanuja's Sribhasya, I noticed that his usages often mirror the Sanskrit that is still spoken by the pandits in Chennai. For example, the word "samiiciina" for "fine," "good," "excellent" is used by that writer. On the other hand, Sankara's Sanskrit does not seem to be connected with the Sanskrit I heard in Chennai -- its style and word usage is quite different. This suggests that there is a continuous tradition of spoken Sanskrit that developed in Tamil Nadu 1000 years ago and still continues today. The Sanskrit used in Kerala was probably rather different (something also suggested by my very superficial acquaintance with the Manipravala works of 4 or 500 years ago). Certainly, in many parts of India and Nepal, Sanskrit has been used as a spoken language for a long time. It would seem that each area has developed its own style and word usage. As we know, the pandits of one area often look down at the Sanskrit (esp. pronunciation) of pandits from other areas. There is a wonderful sloka that can be used when teaching beginning Sanskrit -- but I have forgotten the details of the story that goes along with it. Perhaps someone can recall it. Someone, wanting to show off to Kalidasa how much Sanskrit he knew, said, "bhojanam dehi raajendra ghrtasuupasamanvitam." Kalidasa is supposed to have replied "maahiSam ca zaraccandracandrikaadhavalam dadhi." Of course, the first utterance is ungainly and awkward, while the second flows like moonlight. The dhvani, according to my pandit, is that Kalidasa is implying that the would-be Sanskrit speaker is stupid and slow, as buffalo yogurt is supposed to dull the mind. George Hart From annamisia at YAHOO.COM Fri Aug 15 18:16:43 2008 From: annamisia at YAHOO.COM (Anna A. Slaczka) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 08 11:16:43 -0700 Subject: Help save the Kern Institute Library Message-ID: <161227083220.23782.12032449092766223959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (sorry for crossposting) Dear Friends and Colleagues, It is yet another cry for help - we've seen so many of them during the last few years. Please, see the letter of my colleague Dr. Ellen Raven of the Leiden University attached below. Open and easy access to 'special collections' of manuscripts and microfilms and the possibility just to browse among the shelves of a library are invaluable for students and researchers alike. This appeal may not help. In fact, there is a great chance it will not. But we should give it a try. Anna Slaczka Leiden This is an urgent appeal for your help Leiden, August 15, 2008 To colleagues, library visitors and friends of the Kern Institute, The Leiden University?s Faculty of Arts is presently carrying out a major reorganization of its Department of Asian Studies. The plan proposes a system in which the various subdepartments (including that for South Asia and Tibet) will merge into an Institute of Area Studies. In the new concept India will be included as a regional area, but Indology and Tibetology will no longer exist as independent departments for education and research. Part of the ongoing changes are plans to dismantle the Institute Kern Library. Many of you have made use of its open-stacks while visiting the library.. Since its foundation in 1925 this form of storage has offered optimum accessibility to the almost unparalleled collection of monographs and journals on ?every? aspect of South Asia. In the plans the Kern Institute books and journals will become part of a larger library, however, only offering semi-closed stacks facilities. The plans not only entail closed storage of the books and journals, but also the dividing up the collections. Next to books and journals, the Kern Institute library holds important Tibetan block prints and Indian palm leaf manuscripts and rich collections of archaeological and art historical photographs, slides, microfilms and microfiches. These special collections have always been available for integrated research to students and scholars from all parts of the world. In the plans these special collections are to be moved to the University Library, to be stored in special vaults. Access will thence only be available via application through a digital catalogue (which makes effective browsing practically impossible and excludes direct access).. The association ?Friends of the Kern Institute? evolved from the original Kern Institute founded by Prof. J.Ph. Vogel in 1925. The association has requested the University to safeguard the uniqueness of the Kern Institute Library and its open-stacks policy, but so far without lasting positive results. We now turn to you for support and urge you to send a letter (by mail to the head librarian, d.heilijgers at let.leidenuniv.nl) or by snail mail to the Kern Institute Library, Dept. of India and Tibet, POB 9515, 2300 RA Leiden, The Netherlands, preferably to reach before August 31, 2008. The letter is to be addressed to: The Dean of the Faculty of Arts, Leiden University, Prof. W. van den Doel, POB 9515, 2300 RA Leiden, The Netherlands. In your letter please emphasize the importance of the Kern Institute Library as an unique deposit of scholarship in the multidiscipline of Indology. Throughout the years easy access and a helpful staff have served a multitude of international scholars. Help us to keep this service available and this centre visible! Thank you in advance for your support, Ellen M. Raven Chairman, Friends of the Kern Institute From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Aug 15 21:55:00 2008 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 08 14:55:00 -0700 Subject: Modern and Ancient use of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227083222.23782.8905509012493349707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May I mention, in connection with this and previous messages, an old article in which I addressed these issues, albeit in a summary and preliminary fashion? -- "Linguistic Variability in Sanskrit," in Colette Caillat, ed., Dialectes dans les litt?ratures indo-aryennes (Paris: Coll?ge de France, 1989 [Publications de l'Institut de Civilisation Indienne. s?rie in-8?, fascicule 55]), pp. 275-94. -Richard Salomon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan Houben" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:42 AM Subject: Modern and Ancient use of Sanskrit I. sa.msk.rta-bhaa.saa m.rta-bhaa.saiveti [-eva!-iti] ke cin manyante / bhaarata-de;se tu bahava.h ;saastri.no jaina-munaya.h kavayo 'nye ca sa.msk.rta-vaktaara.h santiiti mayaiva d.r.s.ta.m ca ;sruta.m ca / tasmaad sa.msk.rta-bhaa.saam.rta-bhaa.seva [-iva!] jiivaty eva, yadi vaabhii.s.taanabhii.s.taa vaa // II. The Atlas des langues du monde by Roland Breton (Paris 2003), small but unsurpassed (in some respects not even by the World Atlas of Language Structures), lists sanskrit as "extinct" on page 12, but elsewhere (p. 55) notes that there are 60.000 speakers (according to the 2001 census). The online Ethnologue (www.ethnologue.com) of the Summer Institute of Linguistics (with a staff inspired by Christianity, noting for each language when the first bible translation was made: for Sanskrit this was 1822) registers a "population" (sic) of 6106 speakers (based on the 1981 census) and 194,433 second language speakers. (Less clear to me is that this website notes for Sanskrit: Literacy rate in first language: 60% to 100%. Literacy rate in second language: 15% to 25% literate.) III. Through the ages Sanskrit has been employed, orally and in writing, in various ways by learned and less learned speakers. Attempts to teach "correct" Sanskrit are as old, yes even older than the name Sanskrit (as "sa.msk.rtam" replaces the earlier name "bhaa.saa") for the language which in spite of various differences remains largely understandable over the centuries. From a sociolinguistic point of view there is little reason to take pride in a half year of speaking ;suddha.m sa.msk.rtam and to look down on those employing and enjoying, in preceding centuries and at present, sarala.m sa.msk.rtam, not in order to advertise pedantic erudition but parasparaabhipraayasammelanaartham ... as little as there is reason to look down on the expressive popular ("vulgar") latin employed in graffiti in Pompei or Rome around the time of Cicero. On the contrary: these are interesting and important subjects for (socio-linguistic) study. When it was discovered now two centuries ago in "the West" Sanskrit has inspired generations of linguists, first of all the historical comparativists (Bopp et al.), next the generative grammarians (see introductory paragraph of Kiparsky's On the architecture of Panini's grammar). The rich treasure grove of Sanskrit literatures has not yet been made use of from the point of view of other branches of modern language sciences to which it has a potential to contribute significantly as well. As for sociolinguistics and sociology of language, see nevertheless several articles of H.H. Hock (I hope he will bundle them some time), Madhav Deshpande's Sanskrit & Prakrit (Delhi 1993) and various articles, the book on Ideology and Status of Sanskrit (edited by me in 1996), and now Pollock's The Language of the Gods in the World of Men (Univ of California 2006). As for Sanskrit and cognitive linguistics see my forthcoming article "Bhartrhari as a cognitive linguist", which implies that Paa.nini's grammar can in a revolutionary way be seen as a construction grammar; and that there is NO place for a "structure given before hand", as implied in the famous words of William Jones: (1786): "The Sanskrit language, whatever may be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure.". IV. Through the ages Sanskrit has been used to express various extreme and maadhyamaka messages. In current times Sanskrit has been used to express the views of various extremities: G.B; Palsule's Vainaayakam: an epic description of the life of Sarvarkar (Pune, 1998); a certain Padma Sastri's Leninaamr.tam published at VVRI in Hoshiarpur (1973) etc. Scholarly and scientific works have currently been published in Sanskrit as well: Palsule's work on Indo-european linguistics entitled Yubhaata.h sa.msk.rtam prati; the book Kaa.naada.m paa.niniiya.m ca sarva;saastropakaarakam edited by Maheswaran Nair. Whether one likes it or not: Sanskrit does have a sociolinguistic reality, it is, to use a metaphor from biology, a "living" phenomenon that includes grammar-independent use of the language. Moreover, as McComas Taylor wrote somewhere on the ANU homepage, the chance that future generations will understand a thought expressed in Sanskrit, again whether one likes it or not, is considerably bigger than that they will understand the same thought expressed in English: "In 1,000 years time, Sanskrit will still be the same, but every other language will have changed beyond recognition." V. As for *spoken* sanskrit, various attempts have been made to teach and promote it, for instance in the Giirvaa.napadama?jarii and the Giirvaa.navaa:nma?jarii (prob. early 17th cent.) discussed by A. Wezler (Ideology and Status of Sanskrit p. 327ff). Teaching material of Aksara, Bangalore, is interesting as object of study but, if taken in isolation, not the most suitable for serious Sanskrit students. On the other hand, Aksara's staff and Svayamsevak funders may have an objectionable agenda, but their proselytizing may have quite different effects than foreseen by them. Did Pa.nini plan to help Buddhists and Jainas to get their message in relatively reliable way across, synchronically and diachronically? If Panini had any agenda beyond writing his grammar it must have been to reinforce traditional Brahmanism. In any case, there are other books for teaching Sanskrit. A praiseworthy modern attempt is: Sa.msk.rtavyavahaara.h / Spoken Sanskrit by S.S. Janaki published in Madras at The Kuppuswami Sastri Research Institute, 1990. The older generations of "Western" Sanskrit teachers could afford to escape learning spoken Sanskrit, but at present do serious university teachers of sanskrit have a valid excuse not to master and impart at least some sarala.m sa.msk.rtam to the students, in addition to the analytical knowledge of the language derived from the study of sanskrit grammars such as those of ... (see preceding discussion on this list, and add: J. Gonda's grammar, available in German, French, English)? At present spoken sanskrit remains a disputed domain of "symbolic capital" in india and a fascinating hobby for western students, quite useful for increasing one's grasp of the language. JH From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU Sat Aug 16 01:24:05 2008 From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (tccahill) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 08 19:24:05 -0600 Subject: Kern Institute Library Message-ID: <161227083224.23782.12307606000712259733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Anna, Nice to hear from you, even in connection with this less-than-happy news. I'm back in New Orleans now, getting ready to slog through another semester of "World Religions". Finished up in Pondicherry in early June --far too hot to be working there, but that's the way it worked out. Hope you're work goes well, and good luck with the fight for open stacks and greater accessibilty! best, Tim ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: "Anna A. Slaczka" To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Help save the Kern Institute Library Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:16:43 -0700 > (sorry for crossposting) > > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > It is yet another cry for help - we've seen so many of > them during the last few years. Please, see the letter of > my colleague Dr. Ellen Raven of the Leiden University > attached below. > > Open and easy access to 'special collections' of > manuscripts and microfilms and the possibility just to > browse among the shelves of a library are invaluable for > students and researchers alike. > > This appeal may not help. In fact, there is a great chance > it will not. But we should give it a try. > > Anna Slaczka > Leiden > > > > From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU Sat Aug 16 01:39:29 2008 From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (tccahill) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 08 19:39:29 -0600 Subject: spoken Sanskrit (and a quick straw poll) Message-ID: <161227083226.23782.13228251087575629137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists, Just a quick survey - how many of you would like me to switch back to my old email program...? Please reply to me directly, via the list if you'd like! On the topic on contemporary spoken Sanskrit, some might be interested in a recent book by Janardana Hegde: *BhASApAkah*. It's published by the same group founded by C.M. Krishna Sastri whose name came up recently. Both these men hold advanced degrees in Sanskrit and are capable in a high, nearly literary registe. But they rarely do since they aim to make themselves understood as widely as possible. I might also add that both married women on the understanding that their children would be raised with Sanskrit as their first language. The book brings up many issues relating to the ways in which aspiring speakers (mis)use the structures of (esp. South) Indian languages as they attempt to communicate in Sanskrit. best, Tim Cahill From dxs163 at CASE.EDU Sat Aug 16 10:26:03 2008 From: dxs163 at CASE.EDU (Deepak Sarma) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 08 06:26:03 -0400 Subject: Nagin J. Shah contact info Message-ID: <161227083228.23782.12758707650234381303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings: I am trying to contact Nagin J. Shah. Does anyone have his email or other contact information? thanks in advance, Deepak Dr. Deepak Sarma Associate Professor of Religious Studies Associate Professor of Philosophy Asian Studies Faculty Mailing Address: Department of Religious Studies 111 Mather House 11201 Euclid Avenue Case Western Reserve University Cleveland, OH 44106-7112 office: 216-368-4790 fax: 216-368-4681 deepak.sarma at case.edu From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Sat Aug 16 22:35:08 2008 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 08 18:35:08 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit speakers in Census of India Message-ID: <161227083230.23782.8952653921532019882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to the Census of India figures for Sanskrit speakers I have collected there are some strange figures: 1971 Census 2,212 indicated Sanskrit as their mother tongue 1981 Census 6,106 1991 Census 49,736 2001 Census 14,135 The decadal percentage figures are: 1971-81 176.04 % increase 1981-91 714.54 % increase 1991-2001 -71.5 % decrease How come 35,601 Sanskrit speakers disappeared between 1991 and 2001? Does anyone have an idea? Best regards to all Stella Sandahl -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Tel. (416) 978-4295 Fax. (416) 978-5711 From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Sun Aug 17 08:09:00 2008 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 08 08:09:00 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit speakers in Census of India Message-ID: <161227083232.23782.16999101052734205621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Stella Sandahl" schrieb: > According to the Census of India figures for Sanskrit speakers I have > collected there are some strange figures: > 1991-2001 -71.5 % decrease > How come 35,601 Sanskrit speakers disappeared between 1991 and > 2001? Does anyone have an idea? The first thing to do should be to call the statistical evidence into question: The census is a matter of statistics. What do we know about the methodologically sound background of the 1991-2001 survey? What gives you implicit trust in those figures? Can manipulation be ruled out with certainty? Seeking the support of an independent social scientist with an intimate knowledge of the survey criteria applied during this period as well as the presentation of some hard facts concerning the actual training, the qualification and the reliability of the staff acting on the spot / "in the field" and their methods of interpretation would certainly be revealing. Yet, basic prerequisites of that sort are clearly unachievable today, so any "idea" about the alleged "disappearance", which may or may not be true, means juggling with figures and will remain confined to a sphere of mere speculation. Best, WS --------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Mon Aug 18 01:59:52 2008 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 08 18:59:52 -0700 Subject: Nagin J. Shah contact info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083235.23782.14480037605831992829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Deepak, I do not think that Dr. NaginJ. Shah uses email. If he is still active in the field (I hope he is), you may be able to reach him by non-email at: L.D. Institute of Indology Near Gujarat University, Navarangpura, Ahmedabad 380 009. 91-79-2-630 [644?]-2463 Fax 91-79-2-630 [644?]-7326. Another way would be to request Dr. Jitendra B. Shah, the current director of the L.D. Institute, to give you Dr. Nagin Shah's contact details (home address, tel. no.) by emailing at . a.a. From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Mon Aug 18 06:32:00 2008 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 08 06:32:00 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit speakers in Census of India (Postscript) Message-ID: <161227083237.23782.16302181120697571782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, Arlo Griffiths asked me to forward the lines printed below, which have some bearing on the subject: "There is an only somewhat useful article on Indian Languages and Censuses by S. Manoharan in Indian Linguistics 62 (2001), 117-140. I cannot send messages to Indology from here in California, so if you think this merits being added to your message by way of appendix, go ahead and forward the information to the list." Best, WS --------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Mon Aug 18 07:05:00 2008 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 08 07:05:00 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit speakers in Census of India (Postpostscript) Message-ID: <161227083239.23782.12777059332926428708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, here is a selection of "Census" hits retrieved from SARDS2 (http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/Sards2/), judging from their titles articles which adopt a critical attitude: Chaudhuri, B. L.: Note on a caste of fish-dealers in Bengal not recognized in the Census of 1901. In: JPASBe N.S.6(1910), S. 649-650. Syam Chaudhri, N. K.: The enumeration and treatment of tribes in the Indian Census: a study in retrospect. In: MiI 32,3(Jul.-Sept.1952), S. 160-166. Southworth, F. C.: On the need for qualitative data to supplement census language statistics: some proposals based on the Indian census. In: IL 39,1/4(1978), S. 136-154. Horstmann, Monika: Staatsbeschreibung und statistische Erhebungen im vorkolonialen und kolonialen Indien In: Statistik und Staatsbeschreibung in der Neuzeit: vornehmlich im 16. - 18. Jahrhundert: Bericht ?ber ein interdisziplin?res Symposion in Wolfenb?ttel, 25. - 27. September 1978, hrsg. von Mohammed Rassem und J. Stagl. Paderborn 1980 S. 205-216 Best, WS --------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Aug 18 08:24:12 2008 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 08 10:24:12 +0200 Subject: Question Message-ID: <161227083241.23782.11541651350081131303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, In his grammar/introduction to Sanskrit (exercise V, sentence 2, p. 99), Jan Gonda gives the following sentence: striyo nisargAdeva paNDitAH Would any of you happen know where this statement comes from? An exact "chapter and verse" would be very helpful! Best regards Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 09:14:39 2008 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 08 11:14:39 +0200 Subject: Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083243.23782.1470571693564816103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars, Gonda usually adapts statements from literature to his graded exercises. The full verse hinted at by him here is: striyo hi naama khalv etaa.h nisargaad eva pa.n.ditaa.h / puru.saa.naa.m tu paa.n.ditya.m ;saastrair evopadi;syate // which is found in ;Suudraka's M.rcchaka.tikaa IV; The same verse is cited by J.S. Speyer in his Sanskrit Syntax p. 340 to illustrate "antithesis expressed by adversative particles". Jan On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Dear members of the list, > > In his grammar/introduction to Sanskrit (exercise V, sentence 2, p. 99), > Jan > Gonda gives the following sentence: > > striyo nisargAdeva paNDitAH > > Would any of you happen know where this statement comes from? An exact > "chapter and verse" would be very helpful! > > Best regards > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > From: > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo - Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no > -- Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes Chaire: Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. JEMHouben at gmail.com www.ivry.cnrs.fr/iran/Membres/CV/Houben.htm www.jyotistoma.nl From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO Mon Aug 18 09:22:56 2008 From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 08 11:22:56 +0200 Subject: Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083245.23782.6741044366189657588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you, Jan! This was really helpful! I am supervising a master's thesis, and my student needed this quote, she is doing a women's study angle on the Dasakumaracarita and prostitutes. All the best, Lars Martin From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Jan Houben > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 11:15 AM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Question > > Dear Lars, > > Gonda usually adapts statements from literature to his graded > exercises. > > > > The full verse hinted at by him here is: > > striyo hi naama khalv etaa.h nisargaad eva pa.n.ditaa.h / > > puru.saa.naa.m tu paa.n.ditya.m ;saastrair evopadi;syate // > > which is found in ;Suudraka's M.rcchaka.tikaa IV; > > > > The same verse is cited by J.S. Speyer in his Sanskrit Syntax > p. 340 to illustrate "antithesis expressed by adversative particles". > > > > Jan > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Lars Martin Fosse > wrote: > > > Dear members of the list, > > > > In his grammar/introduction to Sanskrit (exercise V, sentence 2, p. > > 99), Jan Gonda gives the following sentence: > > > > striyo nisargAdeva paNDitAH > > > > Would any of you happen know where this statement comes > from? An exact > > "chapter and verse" would be very helpful! > > > > Best regards > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > > > From: > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > > 0674 Oslo - Norway > > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: > +47 90 91 91 > > 45 > > E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no > > > > > > -- > Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, > Directeur d Etudes > Chaire: Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite Ecole > Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, > 75005 Paris -- France. > JEMHouben at gmail.com > www.ivry.cnrs.fr/iran/Membres/CV/Houben.htm > www.jyotistoma.nl From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Aug 19 13:38:04 2008 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 08 08:38:04 -0500 Subject: Kadamba Message-ID: <161227083248.23782.17994183096773647534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Kadamba tree is identified by Monier-Williams (p. 247) as Nauclea Cadamba and by Apte (p. 527) as Stephegyne Parviflora Korth. The comment in Apte's entry that it "is said to put forth buds at the roaring of thunder- clouds" precisely fits the context in the passage that concerns me (Prabodhacandrodaya, 4.13c). Does anyone have a clue about the correct botanical identification, and whether there is a familiar English name in use? thanks in advance, Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Aug 19 14:03:09 2008 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 08 10:03:09 -0400 Subject: Kadamba In-Reply-To: <20080819083804.BJG28750@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227083254.23782.17729047442043653857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indian Medicinal Plants (published by Orient Longman) Vol. 4, p. 120 has the following: Neolamarckia cadamba (Roxb.) Bosser (=Anthocephalus chinensis (Lam) Rich. ex. Walp.) (A. cadamba (Roxb) Miq.) It is said to belong to the Rubiaceae family (ma?jiSTha kulam) They give the word "Kadam" as the English equivalent (hardly helpful). IMP also says that it is distributed "throughout the Western Ghats at low levels in wet places" which seems wrong, since the kadamba tree is found in Sanskrit poetry from elsewhere. It occurs three times in the GItagovinda. Stella Sandahl -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Tel. (416) 978-4295 Fax. (416) 978-5711 On 19-Aug-08, at 9:38 AM, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > The Kadamba tree is identified by Monier-Williams (p. 247) > as Nauclea Cadamba and by Apte (p. 527) as Stephegyne > Parviflora Korth. The comment in Apte's entry that it > "is said to put forth buds at the roaring of thunder- > clouds" precisely fits the context in the passage that > concerns me (Prabodhacandrodaya, 4.13c). > > Does anyone have a clue about the correct botanical > identification, and whether there is a familiar > English name in use? > > thanks in advance, > Matthew > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Aug 19 15:05:04 2008 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 08 11:05:04 -0400 Subject: Clarification about Spoken Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227083258.23782.4234328270384229151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, I seem to have stepped on many tender toes by making fun of a certain type of Spoken Sanskrit. My main objection is entirely practical. Over the years I have noticed that those who have been taught spoken Sanskrit seem to have real difficulties reading even simple classical Sanskrit such as the Kathasaritsagara and the Hitopadesa, not to speak about the epics. It is important that there still are a few students who wish to learn the language of Kalidasa et alii - and it is a real pity that alamkarashastra is not given much attention among scholars of comparative literature to give just one example. Spoken Sanskrit can be quite an intellectually stimulating pass- time. Like playing chess. But trying to revive a dead language by creating words for nuclear submarines, supermarkets, tennis tournaments etc. is in my view a rather useless enterprise. Mass Sanskrit is of little interest for the large Indian population trying to eke out a meagre living to get one meal a day. Languages are living organism that constantly change - bhasha calti nadi. Sanskrit has a normative unchangeable grammar since around 400 B.C. So can't we let it be what it is, a beautiful dead language? Nobody has tried to revive Latin in Italy since the days of Mussolini. However, Latin is still used in Western universities to harangue recipients of honorary doctorates and such things. And it is of course used by the Vatican. There is no reason not to use Sanskrit in a similar way to inaugurate dams, swearing in cabinets, taking ministerial oaths, and of course in solemn rites of passage. But trying to take a bus in Bombay/Mumbai or disputing the taxi fare in Sanskrit is probably not going to have much effect except amusing the drivers and the ever-present surrounding crowd. However, I do believe it is important that students do regular exercises translating into Sanskrit, not just the other way around. At the Sorbonne we did "themes et versions" on alternating weeks (the "themes" were Sanskrit texts translated into an often bizarre French which we translated back into Sanskrit), and that was very useful. More useful than chatting in Sanskrit about tea and iddlis. Best to all Stella Sandahl P.S. I do know how to transliterate - I just do not like the e-mail transliteration. And in the few cases above all members of the list can surely supply them. P.P.S. Does anyone have the full text of Sacchidanandan's wonderful poem about the dinosaurs who "died out because they spoke Sanskrit"? -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Tel. (416) 978-4295 Fax. (416) 978-5711 From hwtull at MSN.COM Tue Aug 19 15:17:26 2008 From: hwtull at MSN.COM (Herman Tull) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 08 11:17:26 -0400 Subject: Clarification about Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083260.23782.17116355823958150300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Appropriate to this discussion is Edwin Gerow's "Primary Education in Sanskrit: Methods and Goals" from the Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 122, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 2002), pp. 661-690 Herman Tull Princeton, NJ -------------------------------------------------- From: "Stella Sandahl" Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 11:05 AM To: Subject: Clarification about Spoken Sanskrit > Dear all, > I seem to have stepped on many tender toes by making fun of a certain > type of Spoken Sanskrit. My main objection is entirely practical. Over > the years I have noticed that those who have been taught spoken Sanskrit > seem to have real difficulties reading even simple classical Sanskrit > such as the Kathasaritsagara and the Hitopadesa, not to speak about the > epics. It is important that there still are a few students who wish to > learn the language of Kalidasa et alii - and it is a real pity that > alamkarashastra is not given much attention among scholars of comparative > literature to give just one example. > > Spoken Sanskrit can be quite an intellectually stimulating pass- time. > Like playing chess. But trying to revive a dead language by creating > words for nuclear submarines, supermarkets, tennis tournaments etc. is > in my view a rather useless enterprise. Mass Sanskrit is of little > interest for the large Indian population trying to eke out a meagre > living to get one meal a day. Languages are living organism that > constantly change - bhasha calti nadi. Sanskrit has a normative > unchangeable grammar since around 400 B.C. So can't we let it be what it > is, a beautiful dead language? > Nobody has tried to revive Latin in Italy since the days of Mussolini. > However, Latin is still used in Western universities to harangue > recipients of honorary doctorates and such things. > And it is of course used by the Vatican. There is no reason not to use > Sanskrit in a similar way to inaugurate dams, swearing in cabinets, > taking ministerial oaths, and of course in solemn rites of passage. But > trying to take a bus in Bombay/Mumbai or disputing the taxi fare in > Sanskrit is probably not going to have much effect except amusing the > drivers and the ever-present surrounding crowd. > > However, I do believe it is important that students do regular exercises > translating into Sanskrit, not just the other way around. At the Sorbonne > we did "themes et versions" on alternating weeks (the "themes" were > Sanskrit texts translated into an often bizarre French which we > translated back into Sanskrit), and that was very useful. More useful > than chatting in Sanskrit about tea and iddlis. > > Best to all > Stella Sandahl > > P.S. I do know how to transliterate - I just do not like the e-mail > transliteration. And in the few cases above all members of the list can > surely supply them. > P.P.S. Does anyone have the full text of Sacchidanandan's wonderful poem > about the dinosaurs who "died out because they spoke Sanskrit"? > -- > Professor Stella Sandahl > Department of East Asian Studies > 130 St. George St. room 14087 > Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca > Tel. (416) 978-4295 > Fax. (416) 978-5711 > From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Aug 19 16:57:25 2008 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 08 11:57:25 -0500 Subject: Kadamba Message-ID: <161227083262.23782.243185414440327580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to all who answered my query. There seem to be several Latin designations for the same plant in this case. The very useful Pandanus database suggests "wild cinchona" as the English name, but I am puzzled by this: "cinchona" generally names several quinine-yielding species in South America. Is it possible that, after the invention of the gin and tonic, drunken malaria victims began to see quinine bushes everywhere? Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Tue Aug 19 22:56:43 2008 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 08 15:56:43 -0700 Subject: Kadamba In-Reply-To: <20080819115725.BJG56228@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227083264.23782.6097376833197511252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Take a look at this: http://images.google.com/images?q='Anthocephalus%20cadamba' According to the DED, Skt. kadamba is (not surprisingly) Dravidian -- Tamil kaTampu, kaTampam, Telugu kaDambamu, etc. It was worn by the veelan, a low-caste priest of Murugan, when he became possessed. One wonders why the retroflex disappeared in Sanskrit -- perhaps the voicing of the -T- (stops are voiced in Tamil/Malayalam when they appear intervocalically) was heard more prominently than the retroflex. The -T- retroflexed in all the Dravidian languages cited by DED. It also gives a variant Sanskrit form, kalamba. George Hart On Aug 19, 2008, at 9:57 AM, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > Thanks to all who answered my query. > There seem to be several Latin designations > for the same plant in this case. > > The very useful Pandanus database > suggests "wild cinchona" as the English name, > but I am puzzled by this: "cinchona" generally > names several quinine-yielding species in > South America. Is it possible that, after > the invention of the gin and tonic, drunken > malaria victims began to see quinine bushes > everywhere? > > Matthew > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Tue Aug 19 14:00:29 2008 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 08 16:00:29 +0200 Subject: AW: Kadamba Message-ID: <161227083252.23782.18280793941231057828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For Anthocephalus Cadamba see Watt's "Dictionary of the Economic Products of India", vol. I, p. 266 (s.v. A.1192). I recommend the index volume of that work. All volumes are part of the GRETIL e-library: www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm Once you have entered the online catalogue, type "Watt" into the search box, or click the "All titles" button in the left freame and scroll. Best regards Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Gesendet: Di 19.08.2008 15:38 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Kadamba The Kadamba tree is identified by Monier-Williams (p. 247) as Nauclea Cadamba and by Apte (p. 527) as Stephegyne Parviflora Korth. The comment in Apte's entry that it "is said to put forth buds at the roaring of thunder- clouds" precisely fits the context in the passage that concerns me (Prabodhacandrodaya, 4.13c). Does anyone have a clue about the correct botanical identification, and whether there is a familiar English name in use? thanks in advance, Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From straube at STAFF.UNI-MARBURG.DE Tue Aug 19 14:00:58 2008 From: straube at STAFF.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Martin Straube) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 08 16:00:58 +0200 Subject: Kadamba In-Reply-To: <20080819083804.BJG28750@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227083250.23782.2667435509215562491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Kapstein, you could check the Pandanus database http://iu.ff.cuni.cz/pandanus/ which has a rather long entry of the Kadamba tree. I hope it will help, sincerely, Martin Straube. Zitat von mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU: > The Kadamba tree is identified by Monier-Williams (p. 247) > as Nauclea Cadamba and by Apte (p. 527) as Stephegyne > Parviflora Korth. The comment in Apte's entry that it > "is said to put forth buds at the roaring of thunder- > clouds" precisely fits the context in the passage that > concerns me (Prabodhacandrodaya, 4.13c). > > Does anyone have a clue about the correct botanical > identification, and whether there is a familiar > English name in use? > > thanks in advance, > Matthew > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > --- Dr. des. Martin Straube Fachgebiet Indologie und Tibetologie Philipps-Universitaet Marburg Deutschhausstrasse 12 35032 Marburg (Germany) www.uni-marburg.de/indologie From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Tue Aug 19 14:13:20 2008 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 08 16:13:20 +0200 Subject: Kadamba In-Reply-To: <20080819083804.BJG28750@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227083256.23782.12444160207423788065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Viennot, Odette, Le culte de l'arbre dans l'Inde ancienne: textes et monuments br?hmaniques et bouddhiques, Paris: PUF , 1954, Annales du Mus?e Guimet. Biblioth?que d'?tudes no 59 in the Latin index with sanskrit equivalents, kadamba is given both for Anthocephallus cadamba (Hook) p. 273 and Nauclea cadamba (Roxb.) p. 274 in the Sanskrit index, only the former is given for kadamba p. 276 and the "French" name given is... Kadamba In Couture, Andr?, L'enfance de Krishna, Paris - Qu?bec: Presses de l'Universit? Laval - Editions du Cerf, 1991, "Index des noms de plantes" p. 435: Kadamba, Antocephalus indicus syn[onyme] A. cadamba ou Nauclea kadamba, [HV] 52,22; 54,7.8.11.33; 55,8.57; 56,1.2; 73,15. Arbre r?put? pour ses fleurs orange tr?s odorif?rantes qui apparaissent ? l'arriv?e des pluies. >The Kadamba tree is identified by Monier-Williams (p. 247) >as Nauclea Cadamba and by Apte (p. 527) as Stephegyne >Parviflora Korth. The comment in Apte's entry that it >"is said to put forth buds at the roaring of thunder- >clouds" precisely fits the context in the passage that >concerns me (Prabodhacandrodaya, 4.13c). > >Does anyone have a clue about the correct botanical >identification, and whether there is a familiar >English name in use? > >thanks in advance, >Matthew > >Matthew T. Kapstein >Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies >The University of Chicago Divinity School > >Directeur d'?tudes >Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Wed Aug 20 00:42:37 2008 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 08 01:42:37 +0100 Subject: Kadamba Message-ID: <161227083266.23782.12662933267482933509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael, >There seem to be several Latin designations >for the same plant in this case. This is true. When many plants, especially non-European, were first named, sometimes they were inadvertantly named several times by different individuals. Also the allocation of various plants to familes etc has been revised over the decades, so they needed to be renamed. Some may still yet be changed with DNA studies. But, in principle, there is (or should be) only one current valid scientific Latin name for each plant which is registered. There is an international database which gives a ful listing for the world's entire scientifically known flora -- which also, if memory serves me, gives redundant names -- based at Kew Gardens in London. Depending what your purposes are, you may find it useful to download a copy of Hooker's vast Flora Indica, which is very useful as it gives details of distribution in the Indian sub-continent. There are other works available for download that are also useful if you are more interested in trees. Of course, the problem always with many Indian flora (and fauna) names in Sanskrit is that one word can often designate several totally separate species or lump together distinct members of a family. Context sometimes helps, though. I too have been having fun and games recently with certain Indian flora in texts --- one of mine turned out to be Strychos nux-vomica ! But this, with other dats, has helped corroborate evidence for a geographical origin for my texts. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From wmcox at UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Aug 20 09:24:39 2008 From: wmcox at UCHICAGO.EDU (Whitney Cox) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 08 04:24:39 -0500 Subject: Kadamba Message-ID: <161227083275.23782.429537483973065019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As a sidelight to Prof. Hart's comment on Ta. ka.tampu => Skt. kadamba, it's perhaps worth noting that the southwestern dynasty that call themselves the Kadambas (with the dental, as far as I know) are referred to by their contemporaries and rivals as the Ka.dambas, with the retroflex. See for instance the Kauthem plates of Vikramaaditya V (1009 CE, ed. Fleet IA Jan. 1887), ln. 9: kavalitanalalak.smiir durjayaurjityahaarii vihatap.rthuka.dambaa.dambaro mauryanirjit A Sanskrit poet of the eleventh century would presumably have referred to the flower as kadamba, but reserves the more Dravidian spelling for the proper noun. ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:56:43 -0700 >From: George Hart >Subject: Re: Kadamba >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > >Take a look at this: > >http://images.google.com/images?q='Anthocephalus%20cadamba' > >According to the DED, Skt. kadamba is (not surprisingly) Dravidian -- >Tamil kaTampu, kaTampam, Telugu kaDambamu, etc. It was worn by the >veelan, a low-caste priest of Murugan, when he became possessed. One >wonders why the retroflex disappeared in Sanskrit -- perhaps the >voicing of the -T- (stops are voiced in Tamil/Malayalam when they >appear intervocalically) was heard more prominently than the >retroflex. The -T- retroflexed in all the Dravidian languages cited >by DED. It also gives a variant Sanskrit form, kalamba. > >George Hart > >On Aug 19, 2008, at 9:57 AM, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > >> Thanks to all who answered my query. >> There seem to be several Latin designations >> for the same plant in this case. >> >> The very useful Pandanus database >> suggests "wild cinchona" as the English name, >> but I am puzzled by this: "cinchona" generally >> names several quinine-yielding species in >> South America. Is it possible that, after >> the invention of the gin and tonic, drunken >> malaria victims began to see quinine bushes >> everywhere? >> >> Matthew >> >> Matthew T. Kapstein >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies >> The University of Chicago Divinity School >> >> Directeur d'?tudes >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Wed Aug 20 12:23:32 2008 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 08 05:23:32 -0700 Subject: South Asia: Pre-1800. Position at UC, Irvine Message-ID: <161227083279.23782.4126996157601964111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following announcement was sent to me yesterday with a request to give it publicity. It may be of interest to some members of this list. Sorry for any repeated postings you may receive. a.a. South Asia: Pre-1800. The Department of History at the University of California, Irvine invites applications for a position in pre-1800 South Asian history. The department will appoint at the tenure track assistant or tenured beginning associate professor level, contingent upon qualifications. All research specializations in Ancient, Medieval, and Early Modern South Asian History are welcome to apply. Preference will be given to candidates who can participate in the department?s World History program. Start date: July 1, 2009. Please apply on line at http://recruit.ap.uci.edu and submit a cover letter and cv. In addition, please send an article length writing sample and three letters of recommendation (under separate cover) to: Vinayak Chaturvedi Chair, South Asia Search Committee Department of History University of California, Irvine Irvine, CA 92697-3275. To ensure consideration, materials must be received by November 7, 2008. Additional information about the UCI Department of History and the School of Humanities can be found at http://www.humanities.uci.edu/history. The University of California, Irvine, is an Equal Opportunity Employer committed to excellence through diversity and has an Advance Program (http://advance.uci.edu/) for Faculty Equity and Diversity. Closing Date: November 7, 2008. From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Wed Aug 20 14:32:56 2008 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 08 07:32:56 -0700 Subject: Kadamba In-Reply-To: <20080820042439.BDJ16312@m4500-03.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227083285.23782.9068632447062755849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many years ago, Daniel Ingalls remarked that he wished to publish a book of plants with their Sanskrit names, giving pictures and the like. I realize we have various databases and books that catalog the plants of South Asia, but to my knowledge we still have nothing that is meant for the scholar of premodern South Asia that gives the names of the plants in classical languages (Sanskrit, Tamil, Prakrit) with pictures and citations and identifies the plants. In translating from Tamil, I find many many plant names (and some fauna also) whose identification is problematic, and the discussion here on kadamba shows the same is true in Sanskrit. I find myself going on the internet and trying to discover what each plant could be and what it looks like -- using the Tamil Lexicon for the Latin names. I remember one occurrence in the NaRRiNai that describes a plant (I've forgotten which one and don't have time to look it up), saying it makes a sound like fingers snapping. One modern commentator had a completely different interpretation, and I followed him in translating it -- which led a Tamil journal to criticize my translation. When I researched it on the internet I found that indeed the seed pod explodes -- which means that fingers snapping is the correct translation. A comprehensive book -- or better on-line database -- allowing one to look up Sanskrit/Tamil/Prakrit names (and names in other South Asian languages) would be invaluable. If someone is looking for a challenging and fascinating project, this would be a good one. From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Wed Aug 20 14:31:44 2008 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Rasik Vihari Joshi Tripathi) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 08 09:31:44 -0500 Subject: Clarification about Spoken Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227083283.23782.783101262835497829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lovers of spoken Sanskrit, I agree with Dr. Ganeshan. Here are in addition to several Sanskrit journals and even daily Sanskrit News Papers, thereare All India Sanskrit Debates in calcutta, Patna, Jagannatrhpuri, Banaras, Allahabad, Lucknow, Delhi, Jaipur, Tirupati, Bombay etc. Every year where haudreds of participants and the winners get medals, first three speakers.As for modern Sanskrit I give below an example of modern sanskrit poetry. Is it inferior to Kalidasa or Banabhatta. Can we unnderstand it easyly? It does require the sound background of Panini: "Yaah kundastabakanti shrititate muktaa-kalaapantakii Svaante yaasca sudhaakarosra-vigalat-piiyuusha-sekantakii, Kinchaandolita-dugdha-sindhu-laharii-dhaaranukaarantaki Prodhaastah Vrshabhaanujaa-srtuti-kathaa-garbhaa giro durlabhaah Rasik Vihari Joshi -----Mensaje original----- De: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] En nombre de Stella Sandahl Enviado el: Mi?rcoles, 20 de Agosto de 2008 08:49 a.m. Para: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Asunto: Re: Clarification about Spoken Sanskrit Dear Dr. Ganesan, Our definition of a 'dead language' is simply not the same. To me a language is dead when it has a normative grammar which is unchangeable. In that sense Panini, presumably unwittingly, assassinated Sanskrit already 500 or 400 B.C.- the most brilliant assassination in history! Jan Houben actually proves the point by his statement that "In 1,000 years time, Sanskrit will still be the same, but every other language will have changed beyond recognition." A living language changes, a dead one stays the same, regardless how many journals, articles, literary works etc. etc. are written in that language. The only "new" thing about the so called spoken (and also written) Sanskrit is its additional nouns and adjectives such as bhUmigatena rathenAgataH "he arrived by the subway train" or paramANuvisphoTa "nuclear blast" (I am inventing these) - the Hindi "paramANu bam" is funnier. Verbal and pronominal endings do not seem to change. Mummies do not change much either. As for the Census figures of people declaring Sanskrit their mother- tongue (or is it not rather father-tongue?) it has to be taken with a grain of salt. By the way, nobody has so far explained to me what happened with the 35,601 Sanskrit speakers who vanished between 1991-2001. Maybe they, like the Malayali poet Sacchidanandan's dinosaurs "died out because they spoke Sanskrit"? Who knows? Rest assured of my devotion to and love for teaching classical Sanskrit. And please don't accuse me of necrophilia! Yours Stella Sandahl -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Tel. (416) 978-4295 Fax. (416) 978-5711 On 20-Aug-08, at 5:08 AM, Ganesan wrote: > Dear Sanskrit Lovers, > It is so strange that Sanskrit is called a dead language by its own > student !! It is not at all a dead language as it has been declared > as 'mother tongue' by some people though they are very few. > Further, other than its liturgical usage literature of big and > small sizes is still produced in that language in the Bharatadesa . > There are many Sanskrit journals, periodicals and daily newspapers > such as SUDHARMAA, AMRITABHAASHAA,etc. which are even now read by > many Sanskrit lovers in India. > A person living in far away europe or America may not be able to > understand the situation and much less appreciate. > Comparison with Latin does not hold good at all as production of > literary works in Latin is practically nil now. > As very strickingly put forth by Jan Houben, "In 1,000 > years time, Sanskrit will still be the same, but every other > language will have changed beyond recognition." Sanskrit is > chiranaviinaa-ever new and youthful ! > > Ganesh > > Dr.T.Ganesan > Charg? de Recherches > French Institute > 11, St. Louis Street > PONDICHERRY-605001 > INDIA > > Tel: +91 - 413 - 233 4168 ext. 123 > E mail: ganesan at ifpindia.org > Web: www.ifpindia.org > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stella Sandahl" > > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:35 PM > Subject: Clarification about Spoken Sanskrit > > >> Dear all, >> I seem to have stepped on many tender toes by making fun of a >> certain type of Spoken Sanskrit. My main objection is entirely >> practical. Over the years I have noticed that those who have >> been taught spoken Sanskrit seem to have real difficulties >> reading even simple classical Sanskrit such as the >> Kathasaritsagara and the Hitopadesa, not to speak about the >> epics. It is important that there still are a few students who >> wish to learn the language of Kalidasa et alii - and it is a real >> pity that alamkarashastra is not given much attention among >> scholars of comparative literature to give just one example. >> >> Spoken Sanskrit can be quite an intellectually stimulating pass- >> time. Like playing chess. But trying to revive a dead language by >> creating words for nuclear submarines, supermarkets, tennis >> tournaments etc. is in my view a rather useless enterprise. >> Mass Sanskrit is of little interest for the large Indian >> population trying to eke out a meagre living to get one meal a >> day. Languages are living organism that constantly change - >> bhasha calti nadi. Sanskrit has a normative unchangeable grammar >> since around 400 B.C. So can't we let it be what it is, a >> beautiful dead language? >> Nobody has tried to revive Latin in Italy since the days of >> Mussolini. However, Latin is still used in Western universities >> to harangue recipients of honorary doctorates and such things. >> And it is of course used by the Vatican. There is no reason not >> to use Sanskrit in a similar way to inaugurate dams, swearing in >> cabinets, taking ministerial oaths, and of course in solemn rites >> of passage. But trying to take a bus in Bombay/Mumbai or >> disputing the taxi fare in Sanskrit is probably not going to have >> much effect except amusing the drivers and the ever-present >> surrounding crowd. >> >> However, I do believe it is important that students do regular >> exercises translating into Sanskrit, not just the other way >> around. At the Sorbonne we did "themes et versions" on >> alternating weeks (the "themes" were Sanskrit texts translated >> into an often bizarre French which we translated back into >> Sanskrit), and that was very useful. More useful than chatting in >> Sanskrit about tea and iddlis. >> >> Best to all >> Stella Sandahl >> >> P.S. I do know how to transliterate - I just do not like the e- >> mail transliteration. And in the few cases above all members of >> the list can surely supply them. >> P.P.S. Does anyone have the full text of Sacchidanandan's >> wonderful poem about the dinosaurs who "died out because they >> spoke Sanskrit"? >> -- >> Professor Stella Sandahl >> Department of East Asian Studies >> 130 St. George St. room 14087 >> Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 >> ssandahl at sympatico.ca >> stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca >> Tel. (416) 978-4295 >> Fax. (416) 978-5711 From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Aug 20 13:48:52 2008 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 08 09:48:52 -0400 Subject: Clarification about Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <005001c902a4$4295b790$acc809c0@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: <161227083280.23782.11706713284114907469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Ganesan, Our definition of a 'dead language' is simply not the same. To me a language is dead when it has a normative grammar which is unchangeable. In that sense Panini, presumably unwittingly, assassinated Sanskrit already 500 or 400 B.C.- the most brilliant assassination in history! Jan Houben actually proves the point by his statement that "In 1,000 years time, Sanskrit will still be the same, but every other language will have changed beyond recognition." A living language changes, a dead one stays the same, regardless how many journals, articles, literary works etc. etc. are written in that language. The only "new" thing about the so called spoken (and also written) Sanskrit is its additional nouns and adjectives such as bhUmigatena rathenAgataH "he arrived by the subway train" or paramANuvisphoTa "nuclear blast" (I am inventing these) - the Hindi "paramANu bam" is funnier. Verbal and pronominal endings do not seem to change. Mummies do not change much either. As for the Census figures of people declaring Sanskrit their mother- tongue (or is it not rather father-tongue?) it has to be taken with a grain of salt. By the way, nobody has so far explained to me what happened with the 35,601 Sanskrit speakers who vanished between 1991-2001. Maybe they, like the Malayali poet Sacchidanandan's dinosaurs "died out because they spoke Sanskrit"? Who knows? Rest assured of my devotion to and love for teaching classical Sanskrit. And please don't accuse me of necrophilia! Yours Stella Sandahl -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Tel. (416) 978-4295 Fax. (416) 978-5711 On 20-Aug-08, at 5:08 AM, Ganesan wrote: > Dear Sanskrit Lovers, > It is so strange that Sanskrit is called a dead language by its own > student !! It is not at all a dead language as it has been declared > as 'mother tongue' by some people though they are very few. > Further, other than its liturgical usage literature of big and > small sizes is still produced in that language in the Bharatadesa . > There are many Sanskrit journals, periodicals and daily newspapers > such as SUDHARMAA, AMRITABHAASHAA,etc. which are even now read by > many Sanskrit lovers in India. > A person living in far away europe or America may not be able to > understand the situation and much less appreciate. > Comparison with Latin does not hold good at all as production of > literary works in Latin is practically nil now. > As very strickingly put forth by Jan Houben, "In 1,000 > years time, Sanskrit will still be the same, but every other > language will have changed beyond recognition." Sanskrit is > chiranaviinaa-ever new and youthful ! > > Ganesh > > Dr.T.Ganesan > Charg? de Recherches > French Institute > 11, St. Louis Street > PONDICHERRY-605001 > INDIA > > Tel: +91 - 413 - 233 4168 ext. 123 > E mail: ganesan at ifpindia.org > Web: www.ifpindia.org > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stella Sandahl" > > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:35 PM > Subject: Clarification about Spoken Sanskrit > > >> Dear all, >> I seem to have stepped on many tender toes by making fun of a >> certain type of Spoken Sanskrit. My main objection is entirely >> practical. Over the years I have noticed that those who have >> been taught spoken Sanskrit seem to have real difficulties >> reading even simple classical Sanskrit such as the >> Kathasaritsagara and the Hitopadesa, not to speak about the >> epics. It is important that there still are a few students who >> wish to learn the language of Kalidasa et alii - and it is a real >> pity that alamkarashastra is not given much attention among >> scholars of comparative literature to give just one example. >> >> Spoken Sanskrit can be quite an intellectually stimulating pass- >> time. Like playing chess. But trying to revive a dead language by >> creating words for nuclear submarines, supermarkets, tennis >> tournaments etc. is in my view a rather useless enterprise. >> Mass Sanskrit is of little interest for the large Indian >> population trying to eke out a meagre living to get one meal a >> day. Languages are living organism that constantly change - >> bhasha calti nadi. Sanskrit has a normative unchangeable grammar >> since around 400 B.C. So can't we let it be what it is, a >> beautiful dead language? >> Nobody has tried to revive Latin in Italy since the days of >> Mussolini. However, Latin is still used in Western universities >> to harangue recipients of honorary doctorates and such things. >> And it is of course used by the Vatican. There is no reason not >> to use Sanskrit in a similar way to inaugurate dams, swearing in >> cabinets, taking ministerial oaths, and of course in solemn rites >> of passage. But trying to take a bus in Bombay/Mumbai or >> disputing the taxi fare in Sanskrit is probably not going to have >> much effect except amusing the drivers and the ever-present >> surrounding crowd. >> >> However, I do believe it is important that students do regular >> exercises translating into Sanskrit, not just the other way >> around. At the Sorbonne we did "themes et versions" on >> alternating weeks (the "themes" were Sanskrit texts translated >> into an often bizarre French which we translated back into >> Sanskrit), and that was very useful. More useful than chatting in >> Sanskrit about tea and iddlis. >> >> Best to all >> Stella Sandahl >> >> P.S. I do know how to transliterate - I just do not like the e- >> mail transliteration. And in the few cases above all members of >> the list can surely supply them. >> P.P.S. Does anyone have the full text of Sacchidanandan's >> wonderful poem about the dinosaurs who "died out because they >> spoke Sanskrit"? >> -- >> Professor Stella Sandahl >> Department of East Asian Studies >> 130 St. George St. room 14087 >> Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 >> ssandahl at sympatico.ca >> stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca >> Tel. (416) 978-4295 >> Fax. (416) 978-5711 From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Wed Aug 20 07:56:58 2008 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 08 09:56:58 +0200 Subject: Kadamba In-Reply-To: <09036ECB-6BDD-4B21-AF5F-C3C1F25151BC@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227083270.23782.5930923052387326668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It remains interesting to note through this wonderful tool Pandanus database that Mitragyna parvifolia Korth. = Stephegyne parvifolia [contra parvi"-flora" Apte] S.Vidal, same Rubiaceae family as Anthocephalus chinensis = skt kadamba but in this case identified with Skt vitaana see: http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=Mitragyna+parvifolia is identified with Tamil ka.tampai, niirkka.tampu (same in Malayaa.lam), ci_n_nakka.tampu, Mal. roosu ka.tampu or viimpu, which means, on the basis of this "sub-variety" Dravidian lexical classification, that Apte's identification is not wrong at all, and that two (close) plants remain possible in this case. Christophe Vielle >Take a look at this: > >http://images.google.com/images?q='Anthocephalus%20cadamba' > >According to the DED, Skt. kadamba is (not >surprisingly) Dravidian -- Tamil kaTampu, >kaTampam, Telugu kaDambamu, etc. It was worn by >the veelan, a low-caste priest of Murugan, when >he became possessed. One wonders why the >retroflex disappeared in Sanskrit -- perhaps the >voicing of the -T- (stops are voiced in >Tamil/Malayalam when they appear >intervocalically) was heard more prominently >than the retroflex. The -T- retroflexed in all >the Dravidian languages cited by DED. It also >gives a variant Sanskrit form, kalamba. > >George Hart > >On Aug 19, 2008, at 9:57 AM, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > >>Thanks to all who answered my query. >>There seem to be several Latin designations >>for the same plant in this case. >> >>The very useful Pandanus database >>suggests "wild cinchona" as the English name, >>but I am puzzled by this: "cinchona" generally >>names several quinine-yielding species in >>South America. Is it possible that, after >>the invention of the gin and tonic, drunken >>malaria victims began to see quinine bushes >>everywhere? >> >>Matthew >> >>Matthew T. Kapstein >>Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies >>The University of Chicago Divinity School >> >>Directeur d'?tudes >>Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Wed Aug 20 18:35:02 2008 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 08 11:35:02 -0700 Subject: Kadamba In-Reply-To: <20080820042439.BDJ16312@m4500-03.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227083289.23782.14500759221214655684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Isaac Murchie, a graduate student in our department, was good enough to point out what I should have said -- and that of course is the Pendanus db (http://iu.ff.cuni.cz/pandanus/database/). For Tamil, it is sometimes quite useful, but it lacks many of the old names (kaLLi, vaLLai, veTci to name a few) and seems to be more based on modern plant names (e.g. for konRai it gives konnai, which is colloquial). Still, it's a good start and a great timesaver when it works. I especially like the links to Google images. Someday, one hopes, it will become more complete and include citations from texts -- and discussion where the identification is in doubt. Meanwhile, it's a fine start and represents a lot of work. George Hart From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Wed Aug 20 09:39:45 2008 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 08 11:39:45 +0200 Subject: Kadamba In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083276.23782.16229174327648670360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For possible common "English" names, one can find kadam and kaim according to the choice of one or the other (close) identification. See: http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Kadam.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/dinesh_valke/2078204194/ http://envis.frlht.org.in/botanical_search.php?txtbtname=&gesp=198%7CAnthocephalus+cadamba+MIQ (in the latter important database, there is also separate entries for Anthocephalus chinensis (LAM.) A.RICH. EX WALP., Anthocephalus indicus, Nauclea cadamba ROXB., which is taxinomically rather confusing) or http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Kaim.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/dinesh_valke/484191208/ http://envis.frlht.org.in/botanical_search.php?txtbtname=Anthocephalus+cadamba+MIQ..&gesp=1442%7CMitragyna+parvifolia+KORTH. (in the latter, there is also separate entries for Stephegyne parvifolia KORTH.) beautiful flowers indeed... CV >It remains interesting to note through this wonderful tool Pandanus >database that > >Mitragyna parvifolia Korth. = Stephegyne parvifolia [contra >parvi"-flora" Apte] S.Vidal, same Rubiaceae family as Anthocephalus >chinensis = skt kadamba but in this case identified with Skt vitaana >see: http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=Mitragyna+parvifolia > >is identified with Tamil ka.tampai, niirkka.tampu (same in >Malayaa.lam), ci_n_nakka.tampu, Mal. roosu ka.tampu or viimpu, >which means, on the basis of this "sub-variety" Dravidian lexical >classification, that Apte's identification is not wrong at all, and >that two (close) plants remain possible in this case. > >Christophe Vielle > > -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Wed Aug 20 20:33:46 2008 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 08 13:33:46 -0700 Subject: Kadamba In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083300.23782.17222190640466519139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you, Dominik -- this is just the sort of thing that makes this list invaluable. George On Aug 20, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Actually, there's quite a bit of help around. The publications out > of the group at the AVS Kottakkal, including Indira Balachandran, V. > V. Sivarajan and others, are excellent, have pictures, are > multilingual, and are historically well-informed. In the > introduction to my Roots of Ayurveda book - sorry for mentioning my > own work - I discuss these issues of plant identification, and give > a condensed reading list of the works I have in my library and that > I have found extremely helpful. Since Roots came out, the website http://botanicus.org > has arisen that offers simply amazing historical resources, and > links to nomenclature databases. One can download the whole of > Hortus Malabaricus. It's staggering! > > There will always remain some difficult cases, and your "snap" > example is wonderful, and just the sort of historical data that > needs to be brought to the surface. There's always more research to > be done. But there is a mass of valuable publications out there > already that answer very many questions. Just Kirtikar and Basu is > already a great starting point. > > Our colleague Roelf Barkhuis has told me that his company will be > publishing something substantial in exactly this area in the not too > distant future. > > Best, > Dominik > > -- > University College London > > > > On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, George Hart wrote: > >> Many years ago, Daniel Ingalls remarked that he wished to publish a >> book of plants with their Sanskrit names, giving pictures and the >> like. I realize we have various databases and books that catalog >> the plants of South Asia, but to my knowledge we still have nothing >> that is meant for the scholar of premodern South Asia that gives >> the names of the plants in classical languages (Sanskrit, Tamil, >> Prakrit) with pictures and citations and identifies the plants. In >> translating from Tamil, I find many many plant names (and some >> fauna also) whose identification is problematic, and the discussion >> here on kadamba shows the same is true in Sanskrit. I find myself >> going on the internet and trying to discover what each plant could >> be and what it looks like -- using the Tamil Lexicon for the Latin >> names. I remember one occurrence in the NaRRiNai that describes a >> plant (I've forgotten which one and don't have time to look it up), >> saying it makes a sound like fingers snapping. One modern >> commentator had a completely different interpretation, and I >> followed him in translating it -- which led a Tamil journal to >> criticize my translation. When I researched it on the internet I >> found that indeed the seed pod explodes -- which means that fingers >> snapping is the correct translation. A comprehensive book -- or >> better on-line database -- allowing one to look up Sanskrit/Tamil/ >> Prakrit names (and names in other South Asian languages) would be >> invaluable. If someone is looking for a challenging and >> fascinating project, this would be a good one. From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Aug 20 17:34:27 2008 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 08 13:34:27 -0400 Subject: Kadamba Message-ID: <161227083287.23782.14134414742722448349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I stated that the word kadamba occurs 3 times in the GItagovinda. However, it means tree in only one instance, viz. in song 5.7: vixada- kadamba-tale militam ....harim... smarati mano mama. I suppose that the qualifying adjective vizada makes it into a tree with white flowers. In the other two instances (5.3 and 22.2) kadamba means 'mass, multitude' and is simply a pluralizer (see my book Le GItagovinda. Tradition et innovation dans le kAvya, Stockholm 1977, p. 29). Sorry to have been sloppy in the first place. Best Stella Sandahl -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Tel. (416) 978-4295 Fax. (416) 978-5711 From ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG Wed Aug 20 09:08:02 2008 From: ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG (Ganesan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 08 14:38:02 +0530 Subject: Clarification about Spoken Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227083272.23782.6883193932740334958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sanskrit Lovers, It is so strange that Sanskrit is called a dead language by its own student !! It is not at all a dead language as it has been declared as 'mother tongue' by some people though they are very few. Further, other than its liturgical usage literature of big and small sizes is still produced in that language in the Bharatadesa . There are many Sanskrit journals, periodicals and daily newspapers such as SUDHARMAA, AMRITABHAASHAA,etc. which are even now read by many Sanskrit lovers in India. A person living in far away europe or America may not be able to understand the situation and much less appreciate. Comparison with Latin does not hold good at all as production of literary works in Latin is practically nil now. As very strickingly put forth by Jan Houben, "In 1,000 years time, Sanskrit will still be the same, but every other language will have changed beyond recognition." Sanskrit is chiranaviinaa-ever new and youthful ! Ganesh Dr.T.Ganesan Charg? de Recherches French Institute 11, St. Louis Street PONDICHERRY-605001 INDIA Tel: +91 - 413 - 233 4168 ext. 123 E mail: ganesan at ifpindia.org Web: www.ifpindia.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stella Sandahl" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:35 PM Subject: Clarification about Spoken Sanskrit > Dear all, > I seem to have stepped on many tender toes by making fun of a certain > type of Spoken Sanskrit. My main objection is entirely practical. Over > the years I have noticed that those who have been taught spoken Sanskrit > seem to have real difficulties reading even simple classical Sanskrit > such as the Kathasaritsagara and the Hitopadesa, not to speak about the > epics. It is important that there still are a few students who wish to > learn the language of Kalidasa et alii - and it is a real pity that > alamkarashastra is not given much attention among scholars of comparative > literature to give just one example. > > Spoken Sanskrit can be quite an intellectually stimulating pass- time. > Like playing chess. But trying to revive a dead language by creating > words for nuclear submarines, supermarkets, tennis tournaments etc. is > in my view a rather useless enterprise. Mass Sanskrit is of little > interest for the large Indian population trying to eke out a meagre > living to get one meal a day. Languages are living organism that > constantly change - bhasha calti nadi. Sanskrit has a normative > unchangeable grammar since around 400 B.C. So can't we let it be what it > is, a beautiful dead language? > Nobody has tried to revive Latin in Italy since the days of Mussolini. > However, Latin is still used in Western universities to harangue > recipients of honorary doctorates and such things. > And it is of course used by the Vatican. There is no reason not to use > Sanskrit in a similar way to inaugurate dams, swearing in cabinets, > taking ministerial oaths, and of course in solemn rites of passage. But > trying to take a bus in Bombay/Mumbai or disputing the taxi fare in > Sanskrit is probably not going to have much effect except amusing the > drivers and the ever-present surrounding crowd. > > However, I do believe it is important that students do regular exercises > translating into Sanskrit, not just the other way around. At the Sorbonne > we did "themes et versions" on alternating weeks (the "themes" were > Sanskrit texts translated into an often bizarre French which we > translated back into Sanskrit), and that was very useful. More useful > than chatting in Sanskrit about tea and iddlis. > > Best to all > Stella Sandahl > > P.S. I do know how to transliterate - I just do not like the e-mail > transliteration. And in the few cases above all members of the list can > surely supply them. > P.P.S. Does anyone have the full text of Sacchidanandan's wonderful poem > about the dinosaurs who "died out because they spoke Sanskrit"? > -- > Professor Stella Sandahl > Department of East Asian Studies > 130 St. George St. room 14087 > Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca > Tel. (416) 978-4295 > Fax. (416) 978-5711 > From mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU Wed Aug 20 04:46:13 2008 From: mccomas.taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 08 14:46:13 +1000 Subject: position at Seoul National University Message-ID: <161227083268.23782.11580324323119473689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Seoul National University Hinduism The Department of Religious Studies at Seoul National University (Korea) invites applications for an open rank position (tenure-track) in the academic field of Hinduism. While the area of specialization is open, the successful applicant will have expert proficiency in reading Sanskrit texts and demonstrated ability to teach both early and modern Hinduism. Moreover, the successful applicant will be engaged with the wider field of Religious Studies and with relevant theoretical approaches. Applicants will conduct lectures in English at both undergraduate and graduate levels. Competence in English, both oral and written, is essential for this position. Native-level proficiency will be regarded as highly desirable in assessing applicants. Candidates should hold a completed Ph.D. degree at the time of appointment (Sept. 1, 2008). A demonstrated excellence in teaching and research is expected. Applicants will be provided with a twelve month based salary with an annual increase, campus housing at substantially below market cost, one semester paid research leave out of every seven semesters, intra-university research grants, reimbursement for relocating expenses, and student assistants. Candidates should submit an application form (available on-line), curriculum vitae, and no more than two representative writing samples or scholarly publications by E-mail to the Departmental Selection Committee, E-mail: center4rs at snu.ac.kr. Due to procedural matters, it will be advantageous for applicants who submit their material earlier. For more detailed information, visit the departmental homepage, (http://religion.snu.ac.kr/~religion/community1_e.html). Seoul National University -- =============================== Dr McComas Taylor Head, South Asia Centre Faculty of Asian Studies The Australian National University ACTON ACT 0200 Tel: +61 2 6125 3179 Fax: +61 2 6125 8326 Email: mccomas.taylor at anu.edu.au URL: http://asianstudies.anu.edu.au/wiki/index.php/Dr_McComas_Taylor Location: Room E4.24 Baldessin Precinct Building From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Aug 20 19:35:11 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 08 01:05:11 +0530 Subject: Spoken Sanskrit (fwd) Message-ID: <161227083291.23782.6829517723255658712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The INDOLOGY committee recently received a communication from Naresh Cuntoor in response to the Spoken Sanskrit topic. He made several points about the value of Spoken Sanskrit and included useful links to web resources. With his kind permission we reproduce them here: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:59:26 -0400 From: Naresh Cuntoor Subject: Re: Spoken Sanskrit > On Thu, 14 Aug 2008, Naresh Cuntoor wrote: Dear committee members, [...] As a student of Sanskrit who has participated in Samskrita Bharati (SB) activities, I would like to highlight a couple of activities that may be of interest to the list members. [...] Under the SB banner, we started a inter-university network of Sanskrit enthusiasts. The participants are mostly graduate students, recent graduate students and faculty members. Out of these efforts, we meet to practice, read, learn, write and appreciate the language. Please visit http://www.speaksanskrit.org/campus/index.shtml for an overview of recent efforts. -- In particular, I invite you to peruse the periodic newsletters called vishvavaaNi. The pdfs are available here: http://www.speaksanskrit.org/vishvavani/index.shtml -- Another effort that began recently is a wiki-style series of posts: www.speaksanskrit.org/wiki Clearly, I do not mean to say that any of us is a Kalidasa or a Bana. Just that, we are students who are learning something for which we share a passion. [...] Regards, -- Naresh P. Cuntoor From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Aug 20 19:51:49 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 08 01:21:49 +0530 Subject: Kadamba In-Reply-To: <3358DBB8-6401-4527-A7F2-EE13962A7D6F@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227083293.23782.12215446799850218198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Actually, there's quite a bit of help around. The publications out of the group at the AVS Kottakkal, including Indira Balachandran, V. V. Sivarajan and others, are excellent, have pictures, are multilingual, and are historically well-informed. In the introduction to my Roots of Ayurveda book - sorry for mentioning my own work - I discuss these issues of plant identification, and give a condensed reading list of the works I have in my library and that I have found extremely helpful. Since Roots came out, the website http://botanicus.org has arisen that offers simply amazing historical resources, and links to nomenclature databases. One can download the whole of Hortus Malabaricus. It's staggering! There will always remain some difficult cases, and your "snap" example is wonderful, and just the sort of historical data that needs to be brought to the surface. There's always more research to be done. But there is a mass of valuable publications out there already that answer very many questions. Just Kirtikar and Basu is already a great starting point. Our colleague Roelf Barkhuis has told me that his company will be publishing something substantial in exactly this area in the not too distant future. Best, Dominik -- University College London On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, George Hart wrote: > Many years ago, Daniel Ingalls remarked that he wished to publish a book > of plants with their Sanskrit names, giving pictures and the like. I > realize we have various databases and books that catalog the plants of > South Asia, but to my knowledge we still have nothing that is meant for > the scholar of premodern South Asia that gives the names of the plants > in classical languages (Sanskrit, Tamil, Prakrit) with pictures and > citations and identifies the plants. In translating from Tamil, I find > many many plant names (and some fauna also) whose identification is > problematic, and the discussion here on kadamba shows the same is true > in Sanskrit. I find myself going on the internet and trying to discover > what each plant could be and what it looks like -- using the Tamil > Lexicon for the Latin names. I remember one occurrence in the NaRRiNai > that describes a plant (I've forgotten which one and don't have time to > look it up), saying it makes a sound like fingers snapping. One modern > commentator had a completely different interpretation, and I followed > him in translating it -- which led a Tamil journal to criticize my > translation. When I researched it on the internet I found that indeed > the seed pod explodes -- which means that fingers snapping is the > correct translation. A comprehensive book -- or better on-line database > -- allowing one to look up Sanskrit/Tamil/Prakrit names (and names in > other South Asian languages) would be invaluable. If someone is looking > for a challenging and fascinating project, this would be a good one. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Aug 20 20:14:54 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 08 01:44:54 +0530 Subject: Kadamba In-Reply-To: <032f01c9025d$a5065700$ef467257@zen> Message-ID: <161227083296.23782.7145104051989930835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The database at Kew Gardens can be helpful, but it is not an international centralized solution to problems in botanical nomenclature. It mainly records all the different names that have been used, but doesn't actually sort out the problems. It leaves many major issues for further research. Hooker is good, but completely a-historical. Although it's wonderful for botanists, I've found it generally unhelpful for the kinds of problems we routinely face. The reason I recommended the Sivarajan/Balachandran works in my last post, -- and this also goes for the 5-volume Indian Medicinal Plants volumes by Warrier, Nambiar and Ramankutty, that Stella cited -- is that they were prepared by collaborations between scholars who are/were university-trained botanists, as well as Sanskritists and practicing vaidyas in Kerala. These chaps know their onions, so to speak. Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk University College London On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, Stephen Hodge wrote: > Michael, > >> There seem to be several Latin designations >> for the same plant in this case. > > This is true. When many plants, especially non-European, were first named, > sometimes they were inadvertantly named several times by different > individuals. Also the allocation of various plants to familes etc has been > revised over the decades, so they needed to be renamed. Some may still yet > be changed with DNA studies. But, in principle, there is (or should be) > only one current valid scientific Latin name for each plant which is > registered. There is an international database which gives a ful listing > for the world's entire scientifically known flora -- which also, if memory > serves me, gives redundant names -- based at Kew Gardens in London. > > Depending what your purposes are, you may find it useful to download a copy > of Hooker's vast Flora Indica, which is very useful as it gives details of > distribution in the Indian sub-continent. There are other works available > for download that are also useful if you are more interested in trees. > > Of course, the problem always with many Indian flora (and fauna) names in > Sanskrit is that one word can often designate several totally separate > species or lump together distinct members of a family. Context sometimes > helps, though. > > I too have been having fun and games recently with certain Indian flora in > texts --- one of mine turned out to be Strychos nux-vomica ! But this, > with other dats, has helped corroborate evidence for a geographical origin > for my texts. > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Aug 20 20:27:30 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 08 01:57:30 +0530 Subject: Kadamba In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083298.23782.15772063433422942148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The trouble with Pandanus - which is so excellent in many ways - and with many other guides in this area, including the indexes to my own book, is that all the thinking that lies behind a choice of plant identification is suppressed. I no longer even look at books that just say X in Sanskrit is Y in Latin/English. There's no point. If the author doesn't share with you the *thinking* process behind the assertion. Plant identifications can be made on the basis of many different kinds of evidence. There's the anecdotal/historical "snap" kind of evidence, which is great when you can get it. There is the opinion of vaidyas, and this can vary from one locality to another. There are the Sanskrit nighantus, and the Amarakosa, that give many useful correspondences and ideas. There are the Sanskrit words themselves that sometimes contain clues to the shape, colour or other features of the plant. There are the remarks of botanists from Garcia da Orta and van Rheede through Linnaeus, Hooker etc. through to ethnopharmacologists like R. N. Chopra. There is the pharmaceutical consideration, as in discussions of Soma and many other plants with claimed medicinal effects. There's the cross-language coordination of nomenclature. It goes on. In actual practice, one does a kind of triangulation from two or three of these types of evidence to arrive at an answer. The good thing is that there's a great deal of useful scholarship already out there, some of it quite old, that gives lots of historical background. Dymock is wonderfully discursive and yet accurate. Same for Whitelaw and others. U C Dutt's little tome is extremely valuable, and does a much better job of understanding King's data from the Botanical garden in Calcutta than did dear old Monier Williams. So, my point is that producing a database or a book that says "This Sanskrit thingy is that Latin thingy" just won't do. At the very least, the *sources* for making any such judgement absolutely must be given. Better still, the sources should be summarized and discussed, however briefly. Any other approach just adds to the groaning shelves of works that make only raw assertions. These add to the confusion, rather than curing it. Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk University College London On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, Christophe Vielle wrote: > It remains interesting to note through this wonderful tool Pandanus > database that > > Mitragyna parvifolia Korth. = Stephegyne parvifolia [contra parvi"-flora" > Apte] S.Vidal, same Rubiaceae family as Anthocephalus chinensis = skt > kadamba but in this case identified with Skt vitaana > see: > http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=Mitragyna+parvifolia > > is identified with Tamil ka.tampai, niirkka.tampu (same in Malayaa.lam), > ci_n_nakka.tampu, Mal. roosu ka.tampu or viimpu, > which means, on the basis of this "sub-variety" Dravidian lexical > classification, that Apte's identification is not wrong at all, and that > two (close) plants remain possible in this case. > > Christophe Vielle > > > > >> Take a look at this: >> >> http://images.google.com/images?q='Anthocephalus%20cadamba' >> >> According to the DED, Skt. kadamba is (not surprisingly) Dravidian -- >> Tamil kaTampu, kaTampam, Telugu kaDambamu, etc. It was worn by the >> veelan, a low-caste priest of Murugan, when he became possessed. One >> wonders why the retroflex disappeared in Sanskrit -- perhaps the voicing >> of the -T- (stops are voiced in Tamil/Malayalam when they appear >> intervocalically) was heard more prominently than the retroflex. The -T- >> retroflexed in all the Dravidian languages cited by DED. It also gives a >> variant Sanskrit form, kalamba. >> >> George Hart >> >> On Aug 19, 2008, at 9:57 AM, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: >> >>> Thanks to all who answered my query. >>> There seem to be several Latin designations >>> for the same plant in this case. >>> >>> The very useful Pandanus database >>> suggests "wild cinchona" as the English name, >>> but I am puzzled by this: "cinchona" generally >>> names several quinine-yielding species in >>> South America. Is it possible that, after >>> the invention of the gin and tonic, drunken >>> malaria victims began to see quinine bushes >>> everywhere? >>> >>> Matthew >>> >>> Matthew T. Kapstein >>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies >>> The University of Chicago Divinity School >>> >>> Directeur d'?tudes >>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > > -- > > http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be > From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 04:30:24 2008 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 08 10:00:24 +0530 Subject: Clarification about Spoken Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083303.23782.716034677650131857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear friends, I certainly agree with Dr. Ganesan's veiws. further I want to clarify some points here. The spoken sanskrit is conceived to be a small step to further studies of kalidasas language. No body, by chatting over idli or coffee, is claiming that they are far superior to bana or bhasa. how to introduce sanskrit students in first step? it is the question mostly encountered by Sanskrit educators today. people and mostly students in India are afraid of sanskrit becuase of its so called difficulty. Spoken sanskrit aims to quell this fear by introducing a simple form easy to understand the sanskrit initially. then they can go to high language of bana etc. interestingly sanskrit through ages is spoken/ written in a very simple way right from vedas to patanjali sabara kalidasa etc. but sometimes the style had to be somekind of flowerish to attract the selected few, little bit unnatural. we can not compare the simple language of kalidasa and bana. there is very much gap in ages. hence it is aimed to bring back to original state. do not we want to go back to beautifull language of patanjali? or want to read bana only or else all the unnatural sanskrit of poets in between? the beauty always lies in simplicity. I am not the person to hate bana etc. but I admire more patanjali Shabara or vedic sanskrit for its beauti in simplicity. moreover mainly it is the question of how to introduce the first time student indian student to sanskrit? since he already knows many/ or most words (the european student sitting differently without the smell of sanskrit (samskrita-gandha-vidhurah) being a diffrent case) it is only a step to introduce him to syntax of sanskrit and few grammatically correct words. exactly that what this movement is doing. why dont we want/ can not revive the spoken sanskrit across the subcontinent? is not Yehudi a perfect example. nobody of spoken sanskrit champions wants to destroy all other languages and to introduce the sanskrit in their place. nobody is dreaming about that. they are creating awareness of this language. regarding the the most brilliant assassination in history! it is strange that still many people seem to be happy without panini! is it? I do not know exactly. he simply created a much needed grammar of saskrit of his time. sanskrit vanished from common people for different reasons (may be invasions of barbarians or others no body know exactly). but panini survived because of different reasons. (for he was the base of vedic and classical studies that still continue through the ages). *is it panini's fault in writing a highly defined grammar that is still ahead in many themes. *stella's comments make no sense. sorry. if sanskrit is changeble and if at all chages in futures, what is the fault? we welcome it. veeranaryana pandurangi In that sense Panini, presumably unwittingly, > assassinated Sanskrit already 500 or 400 B.C.- Jan Houben actually proves > the point by his statement that "In 1,000 > years time, Sanskrit will still be the same, but every other language > will have changed beyond recognition." > A living language changes, a dead one stays the same, regardless how > many journals, articles, literary works etc. etc. are written in that > language. The only "new" thing about the so called spoken (and also > written) Sanskrit is its additional nouns and adjectives such as > bhUmigatena rathenAgataH "he arrived by the subway train" or > paramANuvisphoTa "nuclear blast" (I am inventing these) - the Hindi > "paramANu bam" is funnier. Verbal and pronominal endings do not seem > to change. Mummies do not change much either. > As for the Census figures of people declaring Sanskrit their mother- > tongue (or is it not rather father-tongue?) it has to be taken with a > grain of salt. By the way, nobody has so far > explained to me what happened with the 35,601 Sanskrit speakers who > vanished between 1991-2001. Maybe they, like the Malayali poet > Sacchidanandan's dinosaurs "died out > because they spoke Sanskrit"? Who knows? > Rest assured of my devotion to and love for teaching classical > Sanskrit. And please don't accuse me of necrophilia! > Yours > Stella Sandahl > -- > Professor Stella Sandahl > Department of East Asian Studies > 130 St. George St. room 14087 > Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca > Tel. (416) 978-4295 > Fax. (416) 978-5711 > > > > On 20-Aug-08, at 5:08 AM, Ganesan wrote: > > > Dear Sanskrit Lovers, > > It is so strange that Sanskrit is called a dead language by its own > > student !! It is not at all a dead language as it has been declared > > as 'mother tongue' by some people though they are very few. > > Further, other than its liturgical usage literature of big and > > small sizes is still produced in that language in the Bharatadesa . > > There are many Sanskrit journals, periodicals and daily newspapers > > such as SUDHARMAA, AMRITABHAASHAA,etc. which are even now read by > > many Sanskrit lovers in India. > > A person living in far away europe or America may not be able to > > understand the situation and much less appreciate. > > Comparison with Latin does not hold good at all as production of > > literary works in Latin is practically nil now. > > As very strickingly put forth by Jan Houben, "In 1,000 > > years time, Sanskrit will still be the same, but every other > > language will have changed beyond recognition." Sanskrit is > > chiranaviinaa-ever new and youthful ! > > > > Ganesh > > > > Dr.T.Ganesan > > Charg? de Recherches > > French Institute > > 11, St. Louis Street > > PONDICHERRY-605001 > > INDIA > > > > Tel: +91 - 413 - 233 4168 ext. 123 > > E mail: ganesan at ifpindia.org > > Web: www.ifpindia.org > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stella Sandahl" > > > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:35 PM > > Subject: Clarification about Spoken Sanskrit > > > > > >> Dear all, > >> I seem to have stepped on many tender toes by making fun of a > >> certain type of Spoken Sanskrit. My main objection is entirely > >> practical. Over the years I have noticed that those who have > >> been taught spoken Sanskrit seem to have real difficulties > >> reading even simple classical Sanskrit such as the > >> Kathasaritsagara and the Hitopadesa, not to speak about the > >> epics. It is important that there still are a few students who > >> wish to learn the language of Kalidasa et alii - and it is a real > >> pity that alamkarashastra is not given much attention among > >> scholars of comparative literature to give just one example. > >> > >> Spoken Sanskrit can be quite an intellectually stimulating pass- > >> time. Like playing chess. But trying to revive a dead language by > >> creating words for nuclear submarines, supermarkets, tennis > >> tournaments etc. is in my view a rather useless enterprise. > >> Mass Sanskrit is of little interest for the large Indian > >> population trying to eke out a meagre living to get one meal a > >> day. Languages are living organism that constantly change - > >> bhasha calti nadi. Sanskrit has a normative unchangeable grammar > >> since around 400 B.C. So can't we let it be what it is, a > >> beautiful dead language? > >> Nobody has tried to revive Latin in Italy since the days of > >> Mussolini. However, Latin is still used in Western universities > >> to harangue recipients of honorary doctorates and such things. > >> And it is of course used by the Vatican. There is no reason not > >> to use Sanskrit in a similar way to inaugurate dams, swearing in > >> cabinets, taking ministerial oaths, and of course in solemn rites > >> of passage. But trying to take a bus in Bombay/Mumbai or > >> disputing the taxi fare in Sanskrit is probably not going to have > >> much effect except amusing the drivers and the ever-present > >> surrounding crowd. > >> > >> However, I do believe it is important that students do regular > >> exercises translating into Sanskrit, not just the other way > >> around. At the Sorbonne we did "themes et versions" on > >> alternating weeks (the "themes" were Sanskrit texts translated > >> into an often bizarre French which we translated back into > >> Sanskrit), and that was very useful. More useful than chatting in > >> Sanskrit about tea and iddlis. > >> > >> Best to all > >> Stella Sandahl > >> > >> P.S. I do know how to transliterate - I just do not like the e- > >> mail transliteration. And in the few cases above all members of > >> the list can surely supply them. > >> P.P.S. Does anyone have the full text of Sacchidanandan's > >> wonderful poem about the dinosaurs who "died out because they > >> spoke Sanskrit"? > >> -- > >> Professor Stella Sandahl > >> Department of East Asian Studies > >> 130 St. George St. room 14087 > >> Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 > >> ssandahl at sympatico.ca > >> stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca > >> Tel. (416) 978-4295 > >> Fax. (416) 978-5711 > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 04:37:20 2008 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 08 10:07:20 +0530 Subject: kalivrttadarshapurana Message-ID: <161227083305.23782.12241767657455287998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear friends is any body aware of a certain purana called Kalpita kalivrttadarshapurana. I saw it in the collection of my Guru Martanda dikshita recently. it is printed but no details. it is also purvarddha. is there any uttararddha? It is critical of colonial practices in nature. I want to translate it. -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From scharf at BROWN.EDU Thu Aug 21 20:32:18 2008 From: scharf at BROWN.EDU (Peter M. Scharf) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 08 16:32:18 -0400 Subject: Vedic l In-Reply-To: <006001c8ed1a$287bbe30$cf565f80@allrsdelld8200> Message-ID: <161227083307.23782.6058888264620966561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I'm describing the phonetic features of Sanskrit sounds for the appendix of LInguistic Issues in Encoding Sanskrit my colleague Malcolm Hyman and I are putting the finishing touches on. One I'm a bit uncertain about it the so-called Vedic l, sometimes called Marathi l, which occurs intervocalically in Rgvedic dialect for retroflex d. I'm unsure whether this is an approximant (like l) or a flap like .d (that is the Devanagari d with a dot below as in Modern Hindi la.dakaa). Gujarati also has intervocalic flap developing from .d. These flaps are not l's bur r's. The question is, "Is (or was) the Vedic l a retroflex flap or a retroflex lateral approximant? Although Allen mentions flap-articulation, his references are not probative. Allen (1953: 73) "they [our authorities] take note, however, of the especially brief and light flap-articulation of intervocalic voiced retroflex stops. Note 2 [Note 2:SESirIya-SikzA 22. duspfzwaS ceti vijYeyo qa-QayoH svara- maDyayoH (in the RP (see 1.110 above) duHspfzwa = Izatspfzwa and is used to describe the articulation of the semivowels). Cf. also VP 4.146 qa-QO La-LAv ekezAm; RP 1.52. For a kymographic study of this feature in Gujarati see t. N. Dave BSOAS 6.673ff. I checked the reference: Dave, T. N. 1931. "Notes on Gujarati Phonology." Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, vol. 6, no. 3, pp. 673-678. Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/607202 Dave says only that Gujarati M.I. .d > G. tapped r. It seems to me Allen's references weigh against his conclusion that Vedic l is a flap, but are not absolutely conclusive. It may not be that all the ancients identified duHspfzwa with Izatspfzwa and the former could indicate tap or flap versus approximant. Alternatively, even if the two terms are identical, they need not distinguish tap and flap from approximant. One bit of evidence that might settle the question concerns whether there are cases in Indic of the retroflex lateral approximant occurring particularly in the intervocalic environment. Is the Tamil retroflex l exclusively or particularly intervocalic? Your help would be appreciated. Peter ********************************************************* Peter M. Scharf (401) 863-2720 office Department of Classics (401) 863-2123 dept. Brown University PO Box 1856 (401) 863-7484 fax Providence, RI 02912 Scharf at brown.edu http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/people/facultypage.php? id=10044 http://sanskritlibrary.org/ ********************************************************* From zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE Thu Aug 21 22:01:46 2008 From: zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 08 00:01:46 +0200 Subject: Spoken / modern Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227083310.23782.17568598787921896917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have followed the multi-threaded 'modern Sanskrit' discussion with interest, and here come my two cents' worth on a few of the issues that were raised -- 1. Indian census reports: they are certainly useful, but they cannot be taken seriously literally (cf. the strangely large number of listed languages spoken in India by one single person, or the number of castes with only one member). The census merely records what people claim about themselves. If someone claims to be a Sanskrit mother tongue speaker, nobody will check to see whether this person has made a truthful statement. Hence also the bizarre fluctuations in the numbers of Sanskrit speakers from one census to the next. 2. Mother tongue speakers of Sanskrit: I know persons who have claimed they are. These persons are simply Kannada speakers with a special love of Sanskrit, and they want Sanskrit to figure in the census reports. Surely the same applies to the vast majority of others (if not all of them) who have claimed the same. 3. The 'Sanskrit-speaking village in Karnataka': this is something of a hoax; but as long as wishful thinking among romantics persists, queries about the village and claims that it exists will also persist. I know of a college teacher of Sanskrit (real Sanskrit) in Bangalore who is from that place, and he finds it rather embarrassing to say where he is from. 4. Politics: regrettably, the activities of organizations like Akshara have a polarizing effect. Some persons feel attracted, others feel repelled by the political message. In one issue of their monthly magazine, years back, I read an ultra-short story about a woman who had lost her three sons in a war with Pakistan, and when asked whether she was sad, she replied: "yes, I am sad that I could not send more sons to give their lives for the sake of the motherland". This more or less illustrates the general atmosphere. 5. Dead or not: the popularity of Sanskrit as an exam subject in high schools, in my own observation, is that it is thought to be (and apparently indeed is) a way to score high marks and thus raise the final average. And this is precisely because practically nobody (teachers included) considers Sanskrit a language of which active mastery is required or even desirable. The popular view is that it is quite dead, only spoken by respectable priests and pundits, and by a few less respectable dazed political right-wingers. I have heard reports of a renowned American Sanskritist [name suppressed] who travelled through Karnataka and Goa and wanted to speak Sanskrit to just about everybody he met. He could; but he was barely understood, and those who could answer in Sanskrit could be counted on the fingers of one hand. 6. Eternal intelligibility: the same applies to other dead languages, esp. Latin, Europe's equivalent to Sanskrit (for a passionate plea to revive the active use of Latin, see the recent bestselling book [!] by Wilfried Stroh, _Latein ist tot, es lebe Latein!_). 7. Usefulness: it can be really useful to speak some Sanskrit. More than once I have been in a situation where the only language in which I could communicate with a person (these persons were always scholars or temple priests) was Sanskrit even if in Karnataka it is, let us say, enhanced with Kannada, and in Pondicherry with Tamil and Telugu and English. The obvious reason for these additions is that Sanskrit is so little spoken that no uniform vocabulary for terms from modern and everyday life has developed. If one compares bilingual X-Sanskrit dictionaries, one finds that the compilers either declare neo-Sanskritic words from language X to be Sanskrit, or they think up new words (words that may become current in a geographically limited area, if at all). 8. Future: who knows? In the first issue of the M?nchener Indologische Zeitschrift (to appear later this year), an interview in Sanskrit will appear which I did with a senior scholar in Udupi. This is an experiment, and I hope that it will actually be read. The man's Sanskrit is delightful: real (not the simplified stuff) and alive. The experiment aims at (a) creating an awareness that Sanskrit is still used, (b) encouraging people to help revive Sanskrit, so that it may become a medium of scholarly communication that eliminates the language barriers between various non-Indian and traditional Indian scholars. Finally, for those who are interested: a few years ago I have written an article about the imperishability of Sanskrit, and its modern use: "Sanskrit: Ewige Sprache der G?tter, wiedergeboren und noch immer da," in P. Schrijver and P. Mumm (eds.), _Sprachtod und Sprachgeburt._ Bremen: Hempen Verlag, 2004, pp. 278-300. RZ -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Department fuer Asienstudien - Institut fuer Indologie und Tibetologie Universitaet Muenchen Deutschland Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Fri Aug 22 15:23:06 2008 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Rasik Vihari Joshi Tripathi) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 08 10:23:06 -0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227083316.23782.3153751622201352124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, I shall very much appreciate if any one of you could kindly explain to me what is "Suurya-Vijnaana"? Thanks in advance, Rasaik Vihari Joshi From hhhock at EXPRESS.CITES.UIUC.EDU Fri Aug 22 15:28:17 2008 From: hhhock at EXPRESS.CITES.UIUC.EDU (hhhock) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 08 10:28:17 -0500 Subject: Vedic l In-Reply-To: <35832AE0-4853-4F18-A741-524425FC3102@brown.edu> Message-ID: <161227083319.23782.10053479129291059227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Peter, Vedic .l will no doubt have to designate some kind of "weakened" form of .d and thus would be a parallel to Hindi (etc.) .r . But that doesn't clarify its phonetic nature. One would like to think of it as some kind of retroflex tap with lateral closure; but I'm not sure that the descriptions in the early Vedic phonetic texts will be helpful in confirming this. There is an interesting parallel, which might be worthy of consideration: At some stage in late MIAr, intervocalic single n and l become sounds that are written .n and .l , contrasting with n and l, the regular outcomes of initial n l and intervocalic nn ll. Here again there is an indication that .n and .l designate "weaker" sounds, since they occur in typical positions of weakening, while n and l occur in typically strong positions. Some of the peripheral NIAr varieties preserve .n and/or .l from these sources, although much of NIAr has lost the contrast, partly in connection with the "Gangetic dentalization". (On this matter, you might consult Masica's Indo-Aryan languages, following up some of the references. Turner, too, had some interesting things to say on this which, I believe, appeared in his collected papers.) Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any phonetic examination of the realization of .n and .l in the NIAr varieties that keep them. However, the pronunciation of .n in Sanskritic words in Hindi as nasalized retroflex flap may provide some clues. That's about all that I can think of. Maybe somebody else on the list has some other or better ideas and/or access to other or better phonetic observations. All the best, Hans On 21 Aug 2008, at 15:32, Peter M. Scharf wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I'm describing the phonetic features of Sanskrit sounds for the > appendix of LInguistic Issues in Encoding Sanskrit my colleague > Malcolm Hyman and I are putting the finishing touches on. One I'm > a bit uncertain about it the so-called Vedic l, sometimes called > Marathi l, which occurs intervocalically in Rgvedic dialect for > retroflex d. I'm unsure whether this is an approximant (like l) or > a flap like .d (that is the Devanagari d with a dot below as in > Modern Hindi la.dakaa). Gujarati also has intervocalic flap > developing from .d. These flaps are not l's bur r's. The question > is, "Is (or was) the Vedic l a retroflex flap or a retroflex > lateral approximant? > > Although Allen mentions flap-articulation, his references are not > probative. > > Allen (1953: 73) "they [our authorities] take note, however, of the > especially brief and light flap-articulation of intervocalic voiced > retroflex stops. Note 2 > [Note 2:SESirIya-SikzA 22. duspfzwaS ceti vijYeyo qa-QayoH svara- > maDyayoH (in the RP (see 1.110 above) duHspfzwa = Izatspfzwa and is > used to describe the articulation of the semivowels). Cf. also VP > 4.146 qa-QO La-LAv ekezAm; RP 1.52. For a kymographic study of > this feature in Gujarati see t. N. Dave BSOAS 6.673ff. > > I checked the reference: > Dave, T. N. 1931. "Notes on Gujarati Phonology." Bulletin of the > School of Oriental and African Studies, vol. 6, no. 3, pp. > 673-678. Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/607202 > > Dave says only that > Gujarati M.I. .d > G. tapped r. > > It seems to me Allen's references weigh against his conclusion that > Vedic l is a flap, but are not absolutely conclusive. It may not > be that all the ancients identified duHspfzwa with Izatspfzwa and > the former could indicate tap or flap versus approximant. > Alternatively, even if the two terms are identical, they need not > distinguish tap and flap from approximant. > > One bit of evidence that might settle the question concerns whether > there are cases in Indic of the retroflex lateral approximant > occurring particularly in the intervocalic environment. Is the > Tamil retroflex l exclusively or particularly intervocalic? > > Your help would be appreciated. > Peter > > ********************************************************* > Peter M. Scharf (401) 863-2720 office > Department of Classics (401) 863-2123 dept. > Brown University > PO Box 1856 (401) 863-7484 fax > Providence, RI 02912 Scharf at brown.edu > http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/people/facultypage.php? > id=10044 > http://sanskritlibrary.org/ > ********************************************************* From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Fri Aug 22 10:04:00 2008 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 08 12:04:00 +0200 Subject: Tamil la-La-Za-ra (Re: Vedic l In-Reply-To: <35832AE0-4853-4F18-A741-524425FC3102@brown.edu> Message-ID: <161227083312.23782.4501572668208783296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter M. Scharf a ?crit : > [....] One I'm a bit uncertain about it the so-called Vedic l, > sometimes called Marathi l, which occurs intervocalically in Rgvedic > dialect for retroflex d. I'm unsure whether this is an approximant > (like l) or a flap like .d (that is the Devanagari d with a dot below > as in Modern Hindi la.dakaa). Gujarati also has intervocalic flap > developing from .d. These flaps are not l's bur r's. The question is, > "Is (or was) the Vedic l a retroflex flap or a retroflex lateral > approximant? > > [...] > > One bit of evidence that might settle the question concerns whether > there are cases in Indic of the retroflex lateral approximant > occurring particularly in the intervocalic environment. Is the Tamil > retroflex l exclusively or particularly intervocalic? In the case of (Classical) Tamil, there is a group of 4 items to be considered: la (?): transcribed "la" in Tamil Lexicon and popularly called "small la" (ci??a la) {cin_n_a la} La (?): transcribed "?a" {l.a} in Tamil Lexicon) and popularly called "big la" [periya la] Za (?): transcribed "?a" {l_a} in Tamil Lexicon (BUT a popular way of writing it in newspapers is "zh") [[This sound is considered by some as unique to Tamil]] ra (?): transcribed "ra" in Tamil Lexicon and popularly called "small ra" (in order to distinguish it from ?a {r_a} (?, popularly called "big ra") The Tolk?ppiyam, which is the earliest extant Tamil grammar describes these four items in two s?tra-s: TE95 and TE96 V.S.Rajam, in her 1981 Ph.D. dissertation (under the supervision of G.Cardona, U.Pennsylvania) translates these two s?tras in the following way: TE95: "As the front tongue rises and scrapes/brushes the palate, rak?ram (r) and Zak?ram (?) -- these two are born (op.cit. p.101) TE96: "As the edge of the tongue swells and joins the root of the upper teeth and (as it) strikes and scrapes/brushes the palate in that region, lakaaram (l) and Lakaaram (L) are born (respectively). (op.cit. p.101) It is quite difficult to know what the original pronunciation of those was, at the time of Tolk?ppiyam because the technical terms used (varu?al "to scrape, to brush"; o??al "to strike") are not necessarily well understood nowadays and because relying on modern Tamil pronunciation for interpreting them is risky: some dialects have merged "la" and "La", keeping them separate from "Za" whereas other dialects have merged "La" and "Za", keeping them separate from "la" (this was already the case in some areas at the time of the viiracoozhiyam (v?rac??iyam) a grammar probably dating back to the 11th cent.) S?tra TE95 is puzzling because the same explanation is given for both "ra" and "Za" Modern linguists usually describe "ra" as a tap, "Za" as an approximant, and "la" and "La" as laterals (see Bh. Krishnamurti, The dravidian languages, 2003, p.62). All of this brings more questions than answers but the topic is quite interesting in what it reveals about the genesis of those Tamil texts (and we might be able to discuss it more at length next week in Potsdam) -- Jean-Luc Chevillard P.S. do you know what Renou is referring to when he talks about the role of the "extr?mit?s de la langue" (jihvaantau) in the faulty pronunciation of l (See: "Terminologie grammaticale du Sanskrit", p.422, jihvaantau "les deux extr?mit?s de la langue": leur r?le dans la prononciation (fautive) de l [R. XIV 27 (785)]. ) From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Fri Aug 22 12:16:15 2008 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 08 14:16:15 +0200 Subject: occurrences in intervocalic position (Re: Tamil la-La-Za-ra (Re: Vedic l In-Reply-To: <48AE8F10.5090602@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227083314.23782.15355394519427090471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Peter Scharf, upon re-reading my message, I have realized that I had not in fact answered your question about the various "l" (see the list below) being or not being "intervocalic"). (N.B. I call them "la", "La" [?a], "Za" [?a], "ra", rather than "l", "L" [?], "Z" [?], "r" because this is how Tamil grammarians talk ..) All of them belong to the list of the 18 Tamil consonants. They are NOT vowels. la and La can occur singly in intervocalic position, and can also be doubled. See Examples: (N.B. I mention only one of the possible meanings, for the terms given as examples; I just want to show that these are real examples ...) alar "rumour" allar "they-are-not" (negative copula) aLantu (a?antu) "having measured" aLLal (a??al) "mud, mire" la and La can also occur before a stop, as in: alkul "1. side; 2. waist; 3. pudendum muliebre" koLvAm (ko?v?m) "we shall take" Za and ra can occur singly in intervocalic position, BUT cannot be doubled. aZal [a?al] "to cry" aritu "is-difficult-NEUTER" Za and ra can also occur as first component of various clusters (but there is a metrical constraint on what precedes the cluster: see TE49 and TE50) vAZtal [v??tal] "to live" vAZkkai [v??kkai] "life" vArntu [v?rntu] "being in a row" vArpu [v?rpu] "being full" I hope this helps Best -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) *********** Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : > Peter M. Scharf a ?crit : >> [....] One I'm a bit uncertain about it the so-called Vedic l, >> sometimes called Marathi l, which occurs intervocalically in Rgvedic >> dialect for retroflex d. I'm unsure whether this is an approximant >> (like l) or a flap like .d (that is the Devanagari d with a dot below >> as in Modern Hindi la.dakaa). Gujarati also has intervocalic flap >> developing from .d. These flaps are not l's bur r's. The question is, >> "Is (or was) the Vedic l a retroflex flap or a retroflex lateral >> approximant? >> >> [...] >> >> One bit of evidence that might settle the question concerns whether >> there are cases in Indic of the retroflex lateral approximant >> occurring particularly in the intervocalic environment. Is the Tamil >> retroflex l exclusively or particularly intervocalic? In the case of (Classical) Tamil, there is a group of 4 items to be considered: la (?): transcribed "la" in Tamil Lexicon and popularly called "small la" (ci??a la) {cin_n_a la} La (?): transcribed "?a" {l.a} in Tamil Lexicon) and popularly called "big la" [periya la] Za (?): transcribed "?a" {l_a} in Tamil Lexicon (BUT a popular way of writing it in newspapers is "zh") [[This sound is considered by some as unique to Tamil]] ra (?): transcribed "ra" in Tamil Lexicon and popularly called "small ra" (in order to distinguish it from ?a {r_a} (?, popularly called "big ra") The Tolk?ppiyam, which is the earliest extant Tamil grammar describes these four items in two s?tra-s: TE95 and TE96 From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Aug 24 14:07:21 2008 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 08 10:07:21 -0400 Subject: Census Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <48ADE5CA.3030800@uni-muenchen.de> Message-ID: <161227083323.23782.800494472908840783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Robert, At last something eminently sensible in the debate about living/dead, modern spoken/written Sanskrit. Thank you! Regarding the Census figures I posted a while ago, I was very well aware of the fraudulent nature of these figures. As Robert has pointed out, nobody will check the claims about mother tongue. Take for example the number of Assamese speakers: many Bengali-speakers in Assam find it safer for political reasons to declare Assamese as their mother tongue instead of Bengali. The high figure for Sanskrit speakers in the 1991 Census can easily be explained by the Hindu revivalism taking place in the late 80s with the televised Ramayana etc. which ultimately led to the destruction of the Babri Masjid in 1992. The "missing" 35,601 speakers in the 2001 Census is harder to explain, but rather telling after several years of a BJP government at the Centre. Was it disenchantment with Hindutva educational policies? At any rate the so-called Sanskrit speakers make an entirely political statement. Quod erat demonstrandum! Stella Sandahl -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 21-Aug-08, at 6:01 PM, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > I have followed the multi-threaded 'modern Sanskrit' discussion > with interest, and here come my two cents' worth on a few of the > issues that were raised -- > > 1. Indian census reports: they are certainly useful, but they > cannot be taken seriously literally (cf. the strangely large number > of listed languages spoken in India by one single person, or the > number of castes with only one member). The census merely records > what people claim about themselves. If someone claims to be a > Sanskrit mother tongue speaker, nobody will check to see whether > this person has made a truthful statement. Hence also the bizarre > fluctuations in the numbers of Sanskrit speakers from one census to > the next. > > 2. Mother tongue speakers of Sanskrit: I know persons who have > claimed they are. These persons are simply Kannada speakers with a > special love of Sanskrit, and they want Sanskrit to figure in the > census reports. Surely the same applies to the vast majority of > others (if not all of them) who have claimed the same. > > 3. The 'Sanskrit-speaking village in Karnataka': this is something > of a hoax; but as long as wishful thinking among romantics > persists, queries about the village and claims that it exists will > also persist. I know of a college teacher of Sanskrit (real > Sanskrit) in Bangalore who is from that place, and he finds it > rather embarrassing to say where he is from. > > 4. Politics: regrettably, the activities of organizations like > Akshara have a polarizing effect. Some persons feel attracted, > others feel repelled by the political message. In one issue of > their monthly magazine, years back, I read an ultra-short story > about a woman who had lost her three sons in a war with Pakistan, > and when asked whether she was sad, she replied: "yes, I am sad > that I could not send more sons to give their lives for the sake of > the motherland". This more or less illustrates the general atmosphere. > > 5. Dead or not: the popularity of Sanskrit as an exam subject in > high schools, in my own observation, is that it is thought to be > (and apparently indeed is) a way to score high marks and thus raise > the final average. And this is precisely because practically nobody > (teachers included) considers Sanskrit a language of which active > mastery is required or even desirable. The popular view is that it > is quite dead, only spoken by respectable priests and pundits, and > by a few less respectable dazed political right-wingers. I have > heard reports of a renowned American Sanskritist [name suppressed] > who travelled through Karnataka and Goa and wanted to speak > Sanskrit to just about everybody he met. He could; but he was > barely understood, and those who could answer in Sanskrit could be > counted on the fingers of one hand. > > 6. Eternal intelligibility: the same applies to other dead > languages, esp. Latin, Europe's equivalent to Sanskrit (for a > passionate plea to revive the active use of Latin, see the recent > bestselling book [!] by Wilfried Stroh, _Latein ist tot, es lebe > Latein!_). > > 7. Usefulness: it can be really useful to speak some Sanskrit. More > than once I have been in a situation where the only language in > which I could communicate with a person (these persons were always > scholars or temple priests) was Sanskrit even if in Karnataka it > is, let us say, enhanced with Kannada, and in Pondicherry with > Tamil and Telugu and English. The obvious reason for these > additions is that Sanskrit is so little spoken that no uniform > vocabulary for terms from modern and everyday life has developed. > If one compares bilingual X-Sanskrit dictionaries, one finds that > the compilers either declare neo-Sanskritic words from language X > to be Sanskrit, or they think up new words (words that may become > current in a geographically limited area, if at all). > > 8. Future: who knows? In the first issue of the M?nchener > Indologische Zeitschrift (to appear later this year), an interview > in Sanskrit will appear which I did with a senior scholar in Udupi. > This is an experiment, and I hope that it will actually be read. > The man's Sanskrit is delightful: real (not the simplified stuff) > and alive. The experiment aims at (a) creating an awareness that > Sanskrit is still used, (b) encouraging people to help revive > Sanskrit, so that it may become a medium of scholarly communication > that eliminates the language barriers between various non-Indian > and traditional Indian scholars. > > Finally, for those who are interested: a few years ago I have > written an article about the imperishability of Sanskrit, and its > modern use: "Sanskrit: Ewige Sprache der G?tter, wiedergeboren und > noch immer da," in P. Schrijver and P. Mumm (eds.), _Sprachtod und > Sprachgeburt._ Bremen: Hempen Verlag, 2004, pp. 278-300. > > RZ > > -- > Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Department fuer Asienstudien - Institut fuer Indologie und Tibetologie > Universitaet Muenchen > Deutschland > Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 > Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 > http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos From yanom at CC.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP Sun Aug 24 08:26:21 2008 From: yanom at CC.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP (Michio Yano) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 08 17:26:21 +0900 Subject: Kadamba Message-ID: <161227083321.23782.824676659915178780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although I have missed the beginning part of this interesting thread, let me quote a verse from the AryabhaTiiya where the shape of the earth is compared with the Kadamba flower: AB 4.7a/ yad-vat kadamba-puSpa-granthis pracitas samantatas kusumais/ AB 4.7c/ tad-vat hi sarva-sattvais jala-jais sthala-jais ca bhU-golas// Micho Yano From peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU Mon Aug 25 06:44:25 2008 From: peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU (Peter Friedlander) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 08 23:44:25 -0700 Subject: Navarang and the rainbow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083325.23782.8514263838128234926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, does anybody out there?know what the nine colours are when in Hindi (and I imagine Sanskrit) people speak of navarang. My sense is that it is related to the notion of, all the colours of the rainbow, but as far as I know there are only seven, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet. So what were the classic Indic nine colours? Regards Peter Peter Gerard FRIEDLANDER (Dr) :: Senior Lecturer, Centre for Language Studies and South?Asian Studies Programme?:: Faculty of Arts & Social Sciences :: National University of Singapore :: AS4 9 Arts Link, #02-01 :: Singapore 117570 :: 65-6516 2468 (DID) :: 65-6777 7736 (Fax) :: clspgf at nus.edu.sg (E) :: www.nus.edu.sg (W) :: http://www.fas.nus.edu.sg/cls/ (CLS Website) :: Company Registration No: 200604346E ? Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Mon Aug 25 19:04:34 2008 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 08 15:04:34 -0400 Subject: Navarang and the rainbow In-Reply-To: <674805.13186.qm@web65709.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227083330.23782.283531506367637903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I know of two major references to the navrang in Hindu symbolism (NOT my speciality) and one in Buddhism which is closely related to one of the Hindu ones. In the following I have no sense of the history or evolution of the usage In addition I would be very interested to Learn more for other members of the list John In Hinduism, the navrang refer to the nine colors of the gemstones associated with the Nava graha (nine planets) these are: Planet: modern association ancient association Sun Surya = Ruby Ruby Moon Chandra = Pearl Pearl Mars Mangala = Red Coral Coral Mercury Budha = Emerald Emerald Jupiter Brihaspati (Guru) = Yellow Sapphire Topaz Venus Shukra = Diamond Diamond Saturn Shani = Sapphire Sapphire Rahu = Garnet (Hessonite) ? probably Lapis Lasuli Ketu = Cat's Eye (Chrysoberyl) ? probably Go-medha Sacrifice (essence) of a cow There is a frequently sought after astrological talisman that has a set of all of these stones which is touted heavily by Jewelers all over Indic and SE Asia. A second reference is that the Navratna refers to the beginning of the Gayatri Mantra http://www.indiavilas.com/wldofind/woigp.asp?g=agayatri_aarti "While Om, Bhuh, Bhuvah, Swaha, Thath, Savithur, Varenyam, Bhargo and Devasya are said to be its nine colors or praise of the Divine, Dheemahi is related to meditation and Dhiyo, Yo, Nah and Prachodayaath are said to be the parts of the prayer aspects of the mantra." The mongol-Tibetan complex of religions reports a similar set to the Navagraha given above" Nine colors in Tibet & Mongolia ?nine gems," gold, silver, coral, pearls, lapis lazuli, turquoise, steel, copper, and mother-of-pearl, were ground up for use as pigments and the sutra was written in the nine colors on black paper in a fine calligraphic hand Terese Tse Bartholomew: Introduction to the Art of Mongolia (cat no. 59) A very modern reference that is making its way into the astrological dialogue is the following list: 1) Ultraviolet, 2) violet, 3) blue, 4) blue-green, 5) green, 6) yellow, 7) orange, 8) red, and 9) infrared. As is obvious, this is simply the adaptation of modern color theory into the ancient art of Astrology A traditional list of colors as used in Buddhist Iconography: Shveta/Sita White Krisna Blue/Black ("dark") Dhuma Smoke Nila Blue Harita Green Pita Yellow Rakta Red Suvarna Gold Rajata Silver Sphatika Crystal ? Coral (Mostly from the Nispannayogavali) On Aug 25, 2008, at 2:44 AM, Peter Friedlander wrote: > Dear List members, > does anybody out there know what the nine colours are when in Hindi > (and I imagine Sanskrit) people speak of navarang. > My sense is that it is related to the notion of, all the colours of > the rainbow, but as far as I know there are only seven, red, > orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet. > So what were the classic Indic nine colours? > Regards > Peter > Peter Gerard FRIEDLANDER (Dr) :: Senior Lecturer, Centre for > Language Studies and South Asian Studies Programme :: Faculty of > Arts & Social Sciences :: National University of Singapore :: AS4 9 > Arts Link, #02-01 :: Singapore 117570 :: 65-6516 2468 (DID) :: > 65-6777 7736 (Fax) :: clspgf at nus.edu.sg (E) :: www.nus.edu.sg > (W) :: http://www.fas.nus.edu.sg/cls/ (CLS Website) :: Company > Registration No: 200604346E > > > > Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7. http:// > au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset > > > -- > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 665051649) is spam: > Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? > c=s&i=665051649&m=32e844904d1b > Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? > c=n&i=665051649&m=32e844904d1b > Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? > c=f&i=665051649&m=32e844904d1b > ------------------------------------------------------ > END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Aug 25 20:50:49 2008 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 08 16:50:49 -0400 Subject: Baladeva on Gargi: talk by David Buchta, Aug. 28 Message-ID: <161227083333.23782.15903579227379730419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Asian Division of The Library of Congress Asian Division Friends Society Present: Portraying an Upanisadic Female Sage at the Cusp of Colonialism: Baladeva Upadhaya on Gargi Vacaknavi by David Buchta University of Pennsylvania 2008 Florence Tan Moeson Fellow The role in religious life allotted to women throughout the history of what is now called Hinduism has been, to various degrees, restricted. This has been especially true for the philosophical school of Vedanta. The premium placed on study of scriptural literature and on asceticism, coupled with the fact that access to both was often prohibited for women and those of lower castes, has precluded the possibility for them to attain liberation. However, Gargi Vacaknavi, a paradigmatic female ascetic, appears as an important interlocutor in a debate narrated in the Brhadaranyaka-Upanisad. To be sure, traditional exegetes have sometimes downplayed Gargi?s importance. Yet, Baladeva Vidyabhusana, writing at the cusp of colonialism and its attendant effects on women?s issues, identifies her as having the highest qualification for inquiry into Brahman. Baladeva explicitly mentions her superiority to her male interlocutor, Yajnavalkya. For it is she who controls the discourse, she by whose judgment Yajnavalkya is declared the victor of the debate. Thursday, August 28, 2008 12:00 ? 1:00 P.M. Asian Division Conference Room Jefferson Building- LJ 149 1st & Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540 Feel free to forward this. Contact: Dr. Allen Thrasher (202) 707-3732 or athr at loc.gov Request ADA accommodations five business days in advance at (202) 707-6362 (voice/TTY) or email ADA at loc.gov From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Aug 25 21:21:20 2008 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 08 17:21:20 -0400 Subject: Library of Congress Asian Division: Moeson Fellowship Program Accepting Applications Message-ID: <161227083335.23782.2010089140155116491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Florence Tan Moeson Fellowship Program Announced The Asian Division Friends Society announces the Florence Tan Moeson Research Fellowship for 2009. This fellowship is made possible by a generous donation of Florence Tan Moeson, for 43 years a Chinese Team cataloger in the Regional and Cooperative Cataloging Division before she retired in 2001. The purpose of the fellowship is to give individuals the opportunity to use the Asian collections in the Library of Congress, which are among the most significant outside of Asia and consist of nearly 2.8 million books, periodicals, newspapers, manuscripts and microforms in the languages of East, South and Southeast Asia. Researchers wishing to submit applications should go to this Web site: www.lcasianfriends.org/fellowship. The deadline for applying for the 2009 fellowship program is September 30, 2008. The Florence Tan Moeson Research Fellowship consists of $14,000 each year for 10 years in support of grants for research using the Asian Division?s Reading Room and the Library?s extensive Asian collections. The grants will be awarded upon demonstration of need. Grants are intended to pay for travel to and from Washington, overnight accommodations and photocopying fees. Graduate and upper-level undergraduate students, independent scholars, community college teachers, researchers without regular teaching appointments, and librarians with a demonstrated need for fellowship support are especially encouraged to apply. The Library?s Asian collection began in 1869 with a gift of 10 works in 933 volumes from the emperor of China to the United States. Spanning a diversity of subjects from China, Japan, Korea, the South Asian subcontinent and Southeast Asia, the Library?s Asian collections have become one of the most accessible and comprehensive sources of Asian language materials in the world. For further information about the collection, visit the Asian Division?s Web site at www.loc.gov/rr/asian/. Thank you. Anchi Hoh, Ph.D. Co-Chair, Florence Tan Moeson Fellowship Program Committee Asian Division Library of Congress (202) 707-5673 adia at loc.gov I might add that I can think of some specific proposals much on my mind, notably cataloging Sanskrit, Urdu, and other South Asian language manuscripts. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Aug 25 15:22:43 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 08 20:52:43 +0530 Subject: Census Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083327.23782.14579928718557399136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This discussion about Spoken Sanskrit was sparked off by my mention of a new article by Adi Hastings on the subject. That article is thoughtful, careful, and worth a read. It deals rather well with this particular issue, of what it means when a family claims that Skt is the language of their home. Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow University College London On Sun, 24 Aug 2008, Stella Sandahl wrote: > Dear Robert, > > At last something eminently sensible in the debate about living/dead, modern > spoken/written Sanskrit. Thank you! > > Regarding the Census figures I posted a while ago, I was very well aware of > the fraudulent nature of these figures. As Robert has pointed out, nobody > will check the claims about mother tongue. Take for example the number of > Assamese speakers: many Bengali-speakers in Assam find it safer for > political reasons to declare Assamese as their mother tongue instead of > Bengali. The high figure for Sanskrit speakers in the 1991 Census can > easily be explained by the Hindu revivalism taking place in the late 80s > with the televised Ramayana etc. which ultimately led to the destruction of > the Babri Masjid in 1992. The "missing" 35,601 speakers in the 2001 Census > is harder to explain, but rather telling after several years of a BJP > government at the Centre. Was it disenchantment with Hindutva educational > policies? At any rate the so-called Sanskrit speakers make an entirely > political statement. Quod erat demonstrandum! > Stella Sandahl > > -- > Stella Sandahl > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > > > > On 21-Aug-08, at 6:01 PM, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > >> I have followed the multi-threaded 'modern Sanskrit' discussion with >> interest, and here come my two cents' worth on a few of the issues that >> were raised -- >> >> 1. Indian census reports: they are certainly useful, but they cannot be >> taken seriously literally (cf. the strangely large number of listed >> languages spoken in India by one single person, or the number of castes >> with only one member). The census merely records what people claim about >> themselves. If someone claims to be a Sanskrit mother tongue speaker, >> nobody will check to see whether this person has made a truthful >> statement. Hence also the bizarre fluctuations in the numbers of Sanskrit >> speakers from one census to the next. >> >> 2. Mother tongue speakers of Sanskrit: I know persons who have claimed >> they are. These persons are simply Kannada speakers with a special love of >> Sanskrit, and they want Sanskrit to figure in the census reports. Surely >> the same applies to the vast majority of others (if not all of them) who >> have claimed the same. >> >> 3. The 'Sanskrit-speaking village in Karnataka': this is something of a >> hoax; but as long as wishful thinking among romantics persists, queries >> about the village and claims that it exists will also persist. I know of a >> college teacher of Sanskrit (real Sanskrit) in Bangalore who is from that >> place, and he finds it rather embarrassing to say where he is from. >> >> 4. Politics: regrettably, the activities of organizations like Akshara >> have a polarizing effect. Some persons feel attracted, others feel >> repelled by the political message. In one issue of their monthly magazine, >> years back, I read an ultra-short story about a woman who had lost her >> three sons in a war with Pakistan, and when asked whether she was sad, she >> replied: "yes, I am sad that I could not send more sons to give their >> lives for the sake of the motherland". This more or less illustrates the >> general atmosphere. >> >> 5. Dead or not: the popularity of Sanskrit as an exam subject in high >> schools, in my own observation, is that it is thought to be (and >> apparently indeed is) a way to score high marks and thus raise the final >> average. And this is precisely because practically nobody (teachers >> included) considers Sanskrit a language of which active mastery is >> required or even desirable. The popular view is that it is quite dead, >> only spoken by respectable priests and pundits, and by a few less >> respectable dazed political right-wingers. I have heard reports of a >> renowned American Sanskritist [name suppressed] who travelled through >> Karnataka and Goa and wanted to speak Sanskrit to just about everybody he >> met. He could; but he was barely understood, and those who could answer in >> Sanskrit could be counted on the fingers of one hand. >> >> 6. Eternal intelligibility: the same applies to other dead languages, esp. >> Latin, Europe's equivalent to Sanskrit (for a passionate plea to revive >> the active use of Latin, see the recent bestselling book [!] by Wilfried >> Stroh, _Latein ist tot, es lebe Latein!_). >> >> 7. Usefulness: it can be really useful to speak some Sanskrit. More than >> once I have been in a situation where the only language in which I could >> communicate with a person (these persons were always scholars or temple >> priests) was Sanskrit even if in Karnataka it is, let us say, enhanced >> with Kannada, and in Pondicherry with Tamil and Telugu and English. The >> obvious reason for these additions is that Sanskrit is so little spoken >> that no uniform vocabulary for terms from modern and everyday life has >> developed. If one compares bilingual X-Sanskrit dictionaries, one finds >> that the compilers either declare neo-Sanskritic words from language X to >> be Sanskrit, or they think up new words (words that may become current in >> a geographically limited area, if at all). >> >> 8. Future: who knows? In the first issue of the M?nchener Indologische >> Zeitschrift (to appear later this year), an interview in Sanskrit will >> appear which I did with a senior scholar in Udupi. This is an experiment, >> and I hope that it will actually be read. The man's Sanskrit is >> delightful: real (not the simplified stuff) and alive. The experiment aims >> at (a) creating an awareness that Sanskrit is still used, (b) encouraging >> people to help revive Sanskrit, so that it may become a medium of >> scholarly communication that eliminates the language barriers between >> various non-Indian and traditional Indian scholars. >> >> Finally, for those who are interested: a few years ago I have written an >> article about the imperishability of Sanskrit, and its modern use: >> "Sanskrit: Ewige Sprache der G?tter, wiedergeboren und noch immer da," in >> P. Schrijver and P. Mumm (eds.), _Sprachtod und Sprachgeburt._ Bremen: >> Hempen Verlag, 2004, pp. 278-300. >> >> RZ >> >> -- >> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos >> Department fuer Asienstudien - Institut fuer Indologie und Tibetologie >> Universitaet Muenchen >> Deutschland >> Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 >> Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 >> http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos From fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU Tue Aug 26 15:29:19 2008 From: fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU (FRITS STAAL) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 08 08:29:19 -0700 Subject: Email address of Dr. Lokesh Chandra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083341.23782.15985758461804624003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Attention Andrea Acri I do not think LC has ever had an e-mail but I have a telephone number - perhaps old like yours: 651-5494. > As far as I know, upt to last week Dr. Lokesh Chandra had no e-mail, nor > e-mail address. G. Fussman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Acri, A." > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 2:49 PM > Subject: Email address of Dr. Lokesh Chandra > > >> Does anyone have the email address of Dr. Lokesh Chandra? Possibly, >> also >> a (recent) telephone number, as the one I have does not seem to be >> working. >> >> Many thanks in advance. >> >> Andrea Acri >> >> >> >> >> CNWS-Kern Institute, Leiden University >> http://web.mac.com/dwipantara >> >> > Frits Staal http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal From A.Acri at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Aug 26 12:49:21 2008 From: A.Acri at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Acri, A.) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 08 14:49:21 +0200 Subject: Email address of Dr. Lokesh Chandra Message-ID: <161227083337.23782.17729130478893286162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have the email address of Dr. Lokesh Chandra? Possibly, also a (recent) telephone number, as the one I have does not seem to be working. Many thanks in advance. Andrea Acri CNWS-Kern Institute, Leiden University http://web.mac.com/dwipantara From fussman at EXT.JUSSIEU.FR Tue Aug 26 13:07:08 2008 From: fussman at EXT.JUSSIEU.FR (fussman) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 08 15:07:08 +0200 Subject: Email address of Dr. Lokesh Chandra Message-ID: <161227083339.23782.1460190674855382193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As far as I know, upt to last week Dr. Lokesh Chandra had no e-mail, nor e-mail address. G. Fussman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Acri, A." To: Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 2:49 PM Subject: Email address of Dr. Lokesh Chandra > Does anyone have the email address of Dr. Lokesh Chandra? Possibly, also > a (recent) telephone number, as the one I have does not seem to be > working. > > Many thanks in advance. > > Andrea Acri > > > > > CNWS-Kern Institute, Leiden University > http://web.mac.com/dwipantara > > From mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 15:54:38 2008 From: mrinalkaul81 at GMAIL.COM (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 08 21:54:38 +0600 Subject: Email address of Dr. Lokesh Chandra In-Reply-To: <7109.61.19.65.40.1219764559.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227083344.23782.15172250018559420559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Attention Andrea Acri I think Dr Frits Stall is very right. Dr Lokesh Chandra never had an email. But I have his new contact number. Please note it down; 91-11-26515800. I hope this works. You may also note down his postal address in case you do not have it; Prof Lokesh Chandra J-22 Hauz Khas Enclave New Delhi - 110016 From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Wed Aug 27 15:18:36 2008 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 08 10:18:36 -0500 Subject: E-text In-Reply-To: <20080122104709.22A77404@bonito.ulb.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227083346.23782.5513809634900555938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know an electronic version of Sankara's commentary on the Brahma Sutras? Thanks. Patrick Olivelle From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Aug 27 15:34:49 2008 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 08 17:34:49 +0200 Subject: AW: E-text Message-ID: <161227083348.23782.13072019130327215454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For what it's worth: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#BadarBrsBh http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#BrBsSamGov R.G. ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von Patrick Olivelle Gesendet: Mi 27.08.2008 17:18 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: E-text Does anyone know an electronic version of Sankara's commentary on the Brahma Sutras? Thanks. Patrick Olivelle From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Aug 28 13:04:15 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 08 14:04:15 +0100 Subject: E-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083350.23782.13326851781081210319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> and in addition to GRETIL, there's http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/ -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow University College London On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > Does anyone know an electronic version of Sankara's commentary on the Brahma > Sutras? Thanks. > > Patrick Olivelle > From J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK Thu Aug 28 16:40:22 2008 From: J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK (J L Brockington) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 08 17:40:22 +0100 Subject: death of Prof. Oscar Botto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083352.23782.17978552750498743971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I forward this sad news, announced this afternoon. Professor Botto was a major figure not only within CESMEO, which he led for so long, but also in the IASS. Yours John Brockington Professor J. L. Brockington Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies Asian Studies 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW Subject: Prof. Oscar Botto Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008 3:07 pm From: CESMEO To: .... It?s with a great sorrow that I have to communicate you the sad news that our beloved Mentor and Cesmeo?s President, Prof.Oscar Botto, has passed away last Sunday August 24th. You?ll be informed about the events that are to be organized to honour his outstanding and prestigious scientific achievements in the field of indological studies. Very best regards Irma Piovano Supervisor of the scientific activities and cultural relations CESMEO via Cavour, 17 10123 TORINO - ITALY tel. +39.011.546564 fax +39.011.545031 cesme at tin.it - www.cesmeo.it -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Aug 28 19:31:13 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 08 20:31:13 +0100 Subject: Kadamba In-Reply-To: <20080824172620.12667345@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227083354.23782.17410841755355476846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An excellent listing, perhaps the best, of what botanical identifications have been proposed for the kadamba is given by Meulenbeld in his 1974 book The Madhavanidana (Brill 1974, reprinted Motilal Banarsidass 2008), Appendix 4, pp. 535-6. Meulenbeld leaves it to the reader to assess the sources for the identifications (which he gives in extenso). What is not stated in Meulenbeld's book is that the various identifications in his appendix on plant names are arranged broadly in order of his opinion of their appropriateness. As with all "bare" identifications, Meulenbeld's list does not provide the reasoning, similarities, features, locations, historical anecdote or any of the other bases for decision-making that are essential for thinking about plant identities in a meaningful manner. They are there in the sources he cites, but that's an exercise left to the reader. Best, Dominik NB there's an important addendum to Meulenbeld's Appendix 4, published as a supplement to the book on Vrksayurveda by R. P. Das. On Sun, 24 Aug 2008, Michio Yano wrote: > Although I have missed the beginning part > of this interesting thread, let me quote > a verse from the AryabhaTiiya where the > shape of the earth is compared with the > Kadamba flower: > > AB 4.7a/ yad-vat kadamba-puSpa-granthis pracitas samantatas kusumais/ > AB 4.7c/ tad-vat hi sarva-sattvais jala-jais sthala-jais ca bhU-golas// > > Micho Yano > From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Aug 29 10:43:06 2008 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 08 06:43:06 -0400 Subject: E-text Message-ID: <161227083356.23782.11353411224162744774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, When I went to the site a few moments ago, all I found is a blank page. Perhaps it's because of my using Safari, but I'd welcome clarification from others. Thanks, George -----Original Message----- >From: Dominik Wujastyk >Sent: Aug 28, 2008 9:04 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Re: E-text > >and in addition to GRETIL, there's > > http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/ > > > >-- >Dr Dominik Wujastyk >Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow >University College London > > > >On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > >> Does anyone know an electronic version of Sankara's commentary on the Brahma >> Sutras? Thanks. >> >> Patrick Olivelle >> From fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 14:00:01 2008 From: fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 08 10:00:01 -0400 Subject: E-text In-Reply-To: <1220011236.5261.15.camel@bibliothek> Message-ID: <161227083362.23782.4857138460829384499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One might also try working out the font corrections through Firefox for Mac, which at least displays the images and links for the page. I had the same issue of a blank page when I tried using Safari. I have downloaded and installed the font suggested by Peter Wyzlic, but have yet to have success getting it to work. I am still trying to work though the font issue as the text appears to be garbled, but at least the page structure and links appear in tact. Any further ideas or solutions for mac users would be welcome! This seems like a great site. Firefox for Mac can be downloaded here: http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/ Best, Benjamin Fleming On 8/29/08 8:00 AM, "Peter Wyzlic" wrote: > Am Freitag, den 29.08.2008, 06:43 -0400 schrieb George Cardona: > > Concerning: http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/ > >> Dear Dominik, When I went to the site a few moments ago, all I found is a >> blank page. Perhaps it's because of my using Safari, but I'd welcome >> clarification from others. Thanks, George > > You may go to the font troubleshooting page that should be readable for > all browsers: http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/ifont.htm > There is no hint how to deal with Safari in Mac OS. One solution might > be you download the Devanagari Truetype font (go to "download fonts" and > "Linux users") and try to install. The download link is: > http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/ttf/DVYG0ntt.ttf > > This website uses so called "dynamic fonts", this is a technology that > came up in the nineties and worked with some versions of some web > browsers but not in others. In my opinion, it becomes more and more > obsolete. They should switch to Unicode encoding which is more > state-of-the-art. > > Hope it helps > Peter Wyzlic From fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 14:03:55 2008 From: fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 08 10:03:55 -0400 Subject: E-text In-Reply-To: <1220011236.5261.15.camel@bibliothek> Message-ID: <161227083366.23782.12048186098616227425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should add that I was successful on accessing the pdf files on my Mac through Firefox. These pdfs are quite readable! Best, B On 8/29/08 8:00 AM, "Peter Wyzlic" wrote: > Am Freitag, den 29.08.2008, 06:43 -0400 schrieb George Cardona: > > Concerning: http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/ > >> Dear Dominik, When I went to the site a few moments ago, all I found is a >> blank page. Perhaps it's because of my using Safari, but I'd welcome >> clarification from others. Thanks, George > > You may go to the font troubleshooting page that should be readable for > all browsers: http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/ifont.htm > There is no hint how to deal with Safari in Mac OS. One solution might > be you download the Devanagari Truetype font (go to "download fonts" and > "Linux users") and try to install. The download link is: > http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/ttf/DVYG0ntt.ttf > > This website uses so called "dynamic fonts", this is a technology that > came up in the nineties and worked with some versions of some web > browsers but not in others. In my opinion, it becomes more and more > obsolete. They should switch to Unicode encoding which is more > state-of-the-art. > > Hope it helps > Peter Wyzlic From garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG Fri Aug 29 11:42:57 2008 From: garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 08 13:42:57 +0200 Subject: books on Gupta inscriptions, Nepal Message-ID: <161227083358.23782.12550783986399431492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, does anybody know titles and biblio of the books on (Gupta) inscriptions by Baburam Acharya, Yogi Nara Hari Nath e Naya Raj Pant? (perhaps Mahes Pant, though I don't have his latest email address) Thanks in advance, please answer me on or off list, Dr. Enrica Garzilli From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Fri Aug 29 12:00:36 2008 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 08 14:00:36 +0200 Subject: E-text In-Reply-To: <11746416.1220006586719.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227083360.23782.7113348271057237758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am Freitag, den 29.08.2008, 06:43 -0400 schrieb George Cardona: Concerning: http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/ > Dear Dominik, When I went to the site a few moments ago, all I found is a blank page. Perhaps it's because of my using Safari, but I'd welcome clarification from others. Thanks, George You may go to the font troubleshooting page that should be readable for all browsers: http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/ifont.htm There is no hint how to deal with Safari in Mac OS. One solution might be you download the Devanagari Truetype font (go to "download fonts" and "Linux users") and try to install. The download link is: http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/ttf/DVYG0ntt.ttf This website uses so called "dynamic fonts", this is a technology that came up in the nineties and worked with some versions of some web browsers but not in others. In my opinion, it becomes more and more obsolete. They should switch to Unicode encoding which is more state-of-the-art. Hope it helps Peter Wyzlic -- Abteilung f?r Indologie Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn Deutschland / Germany From fussman at EXT.JUSSIEU.FR Fri Aug 29 14:05:11 2008 From: fussman at EXT.JUSSIEU.FR (fussman) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 08 16:05:11 +0200 Subject: change of e-mail address Message-ID: <161227083364.23782.3691095972759831628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could you send me from now on your mails to the following address: g.fussman at college-de-france.fr. The previous address (fussman at ext.jussieu.fr) will be cancelled very soon . With thanks and regards G.Fussman From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Aug 29 15:37:44 2008 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 08 16:37:44 +0100 Subject: E-text In-Reply-To: <11746416.1220006586719.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227083369.23782.2255846610132086286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As Peter already said, the technology used on this site is now dated. I kept seeing gobbledegook, but after fiddling around for a while with encodings and fonts it finally settled down. It's worth the effort to get this site working, since there's a mass of textual material there. There are quite a few typos in the texts, but still it's useful. And apart from displaying on the screen, the site will generate a PDF of the text on the fly, either in Devanagari or in roman, that one can download. I get the feeling that this website was a one-shot effort, and that what's done is done, and that's it. I doubt that we would get any response to suggestions of improvement. However, if someone were to go to Kanpur and meet the people, and offer to take the thing over and develop it, that might work. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow University College London On Fri, 29 Aug 2008, George Cardona wrote: > Dear Dominik, When I went to the site a few moments ago, all I found is a blank page. Perhaps it's because of my using Safari, but I'd welcome clarification from others. Thanks, George > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Dominik Wujastyk >> Sent: Aug 28, 2008 9:04 AM >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Subject: Re: E-text >> >> and in addition to GRETIL, there's >> >> http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/ >> >> >> >> -- >> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >> Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow >> University College London >> >> >> >> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Patrick Olivelle wrote: >> >>> Does anyone know an electronic version of Sankara's commentary on the Brahma >>> Sutras? Thanks. >>> >>> Patrick Olivelle >>> > From mahesrajpant at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 01:47:28 2008 From: mahesrajpant at HOTMAIL.COM (Mahes Raj Pant) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 08 01:47:28 +0000 Subject: books on Gupta inscriptions, Nepal In-Reply-To: <25af6cd10808290442j7d82af0ah70806c2f39152d77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227083373.23782.4879481555095287265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> None of these scholars has written an independent book on the Licchavi inscriptions. However, there are a lot of publications of theese scholars in now defunct journals, namely Purushartha, Sam.skr.ta-sandesha and Itihaasa-prakaasha and still running PuurNimaa, all published from Kathmandu. Mahes Raj Pant> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:42:57 +0200> From: garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG> Subject: books on Gupta inscriptions, Nepal> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk> > Dear Colleagues,> > does anybody know titles and biblio of the books on (Gupta) inscriptions by> Baburam Acharya, Yogi Nara Hari Nath e Naya Raj Pant? (perhaps Mahes Pant,> though I don't have his latest email address)> > Thanks in advance, please answer me on or off list,> > Dr. Enrica Garzilli _________________________________________________________________ News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now! http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx From mahesrajpant at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 01:47:29 2008 From: mahesrajpant at HOTMAIL.COM (Mahes Raj Pant) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 08 01:47:29 +0000 Subject: books on Gupta inscriptions, Nepal In-Reply-To: <25af6cd10808290442j7d82af0ah70806c2f39152d77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227083371.23782.4002689967102192737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> None of these scholars has written an independent book on the Licchavi inscriptions. However, there are a lot of publications of theese scholars in now defunct journals, namely Purushartha, Sam.skr.ta-sandesha and Itihaasa-prakaasha and still running PuurNimaa, all published from Kathmandu. Mahes Raj Pant> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:42:57 +0200> From: garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG> Subject: books on Gupta inscriptions, Nepal> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk> > Dear Colleagues,> > does anybody know titles and biblio of the books on (Gupta) inscriptions by> Baburam Acharya, Yogi Nara Hari Nath e Naya Raj Pant? (perhaps Mahes Pant,> though I don't have his latest email address)> > Thanks in advance, please answer me on or off list,> > Dr. Enrica Garzilli _________________________________________________________________ Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger? http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline From garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG Sat Aug 30 08:34:04 2008 From: garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 08 10:34:04 +0200 Subject: books on Gupta inscriptions, Nepal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227083375.23782.15524593790865851857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you Mahes, yesterday I checked that (it's easy to find it in international online libraries, thank God open and public). I need to know in which books and journals (with biblio of course) they published inscriptions or studies on them. Titles are a bit too generic. Perhaps you know at least your father's publications. All the best, and thank you again, enrica ps perhaps, since we know each other, you want to answer to my private yesterday mail off list? On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 3:47 AM, Mahes Raj Pant wrote: > None of these scholars has written an independent book on the Licchavi > inscriptions. However, there are a lot of publications of theese scholars in > now defunct journals, namely Purushartha, Sam.skr.ta-sandesha and > Itihaasa-prakaasha and still running PuurNimaa, all published from > Kathmandu. > > Mahes Raj Pant> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:42:57 +0200> From: > garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG> Subject: books on Gupta inscriptions, Nepal> To: > INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk> > Dear Colleagues,> > does anybody know titles > and biblio of the books on (Gupta) inscriptions by> Baburam Acharya, Yogi > Nara Hari Nath e Naya Raj Pant? (perhaps Mahes Pant,> though I don't have > his latest email address)> > Thanks in advance, please answer me on or off > list,> > Dr. Enrica Garzilli > _________________________________________________________________ > Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger > > http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline > From Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR Sun Aug 31 21:29:40 2008 From: Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR (=?utf-8?Q?G=C3=A9rard_Huet?=) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 08 23:29:40 +0200 Subject: Final call, Third Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium Message-ID: <161227083377.23782.13601044276702273645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apologies for duplicate mailings. Final call for the Third Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium, Jan 15-17, 2009, Hyderabad. September 6th 2008: Final deadline for submission of full papers. Please visit http://sanskrit.uohyd.ernet.in/Symposium